# flavour improvement



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Ive been playing with my grinder and some fresh beans and currently im right in the 18g in 36g out 25-30sec zone. However my extractions are still a little sour and im not getting the sweet caramel notes of foundry's rio magdalena.

Should i be extracting for longer/shorter at the same grind setting (so altering the ratio)? or tightening/loosening grind setting but go for the same ratio?

feel a bit at sea at the mo...

thanks in advance


----------



## herrschaefer (Sep 22, 2017)

Try to extract a little bit more, like 40-43g out.

tell me your results, when you tried it


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jj-x-ray said:


> Ive been playing with my grinder and some fresh beans and currently im right in the 18g in 36g out 25-30sec zone. However my extractions are still a little sour and im not getting the sweet caramel notes of foundry's rio magdalena.
> 
> Should i be extracting for longer/shorter at the same grind setting (so altering the ratio)? or tightening/loosening grind setting but go for the same ratio?
> 
> ...


I usually try to adjust by dose then ratio & finally by time. Will try to find the YouTube clip that explains it.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> I usually try to adjust by dose then ratio & finally by time. Will try to find the YouTube clip that explains it.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

ashcroc said:


>


Thanks ash. I think I have to add prep as a likely variable too. Tried this morning and although I got a decent mousetail, the shot blonded very quickly and produced one of the worst tasting shots I've had yet. I'm not doing these beans justice...

Don't want to blame my tools but I'm feeling exposed now without a leveller and my 58 mm Motta tamper, whilst lovely to look at feels far too loose a fit...

I'll try dose next.


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

What are you doing about temperature control? That's one of the most important factors in a good shot.


----------



## Sheena_Lance (Jan 24, 2018)

I think it's with the temperature, try to adjust a bit more with your temparature to achieved the right taste.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What basket are you using, is 18g the right dose?

Try more like a 1:3 ratio.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> What are you doing about temperature control? That's one of the most important factors in a good shot.


Gaggia classic is a bit difficult in this aspect. I temp surf but can never be sure.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What basket are you using, is 18g the right dose?
> 
> Try more like a 1:3 ratio.


Ims 18g basket....I'm guessing I can only go +/- 1g


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> Ims 18g basket....I'm guessing I can only go +/- 1g


Cool, then try 18:54g.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Cool, then try 18:54g.


In 25 to 30s? Or at current grind setting?


----------



## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

ashcroc said:


>


This vid is really helpful but I need to read up on strength & extraction... Also a bit unsure of how you know when to switch from yield to time :/


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

If you use a Gaggia Classic it's all about the temperature surfing. Read this thread - it's essential reading

https://www.home-barista.com/tips/different-approach-to-gaggia-temperature-routine-t22059.html

With my Classic I go by the amount of steam on a quick purge. Hard to describe and non-scientific but can get you in the ballpark when you get used to it. Roughly speaking the cloud of steam on a quick purge should be about the same width as the machine, not less, not more. You use the steam switch to increase the temperature in increments of around 4-5 seconds.

Try hotter, using the steam switch. See if that cures your problems.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> In 25 to 30s? Or at current grind setting?


Try at the current grind setting & record the time. If still sour, try going finer.

Kill the shot by weight, not time. Use grind to steer the flavour, not so much the time. +/-2.5 sec is probably too narrow a window to be realistic.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

@ashcroc

just watched that vid properly, very informative....ill use this methodical approach next time.

whats that guy got against curved tampers, i was thinking of getting one........ lol


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

im getting closer, went for longer extraction and then tightened up the grind...... 18:45g 38secs ...... much smoother, thicker and more flavours closer to the tasting notes.

Im tempted to tighten a bit more, just worried a +40s pull may be a tad too far


----------



## herrschaefer (Sep 22, 2017)

ashcroc said:


>


just wondering why many think, that temp influences the shot massively and matt perger didnt even mention it in this video.

i recogniced that the main aspect is the brew ratio. only if you fixed this, you can go on and try to expand the brewtime or change the temp.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> If you use a Gaggia Classic it's all about the temperature surfing. Read this thread - it's essential reading
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/tips/different-approach-to-gaggia-temperature-routine-t22059.html
> 
> ...


thanks, this guy does have temp sensors, so can see what hes doing (i realise hes just demoing). To do that without digi display would still be as arbitrary as current surfing no? It would be good to see a vid of your technique, before i blow any more beans...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> im getting closer, went for longer extraction and then tightened up the grind...... 18:45g 38secs ...... much smoother, thicker and more flavours closer to the tasting notes.
> 
> Im tempted to tighten a bit more, just worried a +40s pull may be a tad too far


If it doesn't taste 'too far' then it's not. If the shot does start getting a bit chewy & flat, go a little coarser & maybe pull a little longer in ratio?

Shots can still taste good up to a minute.


----------



## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

how fresh are the beans? at least a week after roasting? with very fresh beans, shots can taste badly as the beans are loaded with CO2


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Stanic said:


> how fresh are the beans? at least a week after roasting? with very fresh beans, shots can taste badly as the beans are loaded with CO2


Roasted on 2nd April but put straight in freezer....have been out about a week now. Not sure where that leaves me


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Had a horrible sinker with the same settings as yesterday 

Tightened the grind a little and only did 18:36 and it tasted better......so much variability

Nearly empty bag now too lol.....virtually all used up experimenting rather than drinking


----------



## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

jj-x-ray said:


> Had a horrible sinker with the same settings as yesterday
> 
> Tightened the grind a little and only did 18:36 and it tasted better......so much variability
> 
> Nearly empty bag now too lol.....virtually all used up experimenting rather than drinking


welcome to the world of espresso







where art meets science lol

as you described, the beans should be rested now


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> Had a horrible sinker with the same settings as yesterday
> 
> Tightened the grind a little and only did 18:36 and it tasted better......so much variability
> 
> Nearly empty bag now too lol.....virtually all used up experimenting rather than drinking


"better" than the sink shot, or better than the best shot so far?

"Same as yesterday" doesn't tell us much if you have made 10-14 shots with this bag. Best to note what you did with each shot, one by one & how they tasted.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Way better than the sink shot (sourest shot ever)...bout the same as the best. I'll try a longer yield with the new grind....going to be close to 50s lol

I feel my prep and surfing deffo isn't as good as it could be.......I can see a pid on the horizon


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> Way better than the sink shot (sourest shot ever)...bout the same as the best. I'll try a longer yield with the new grind....going to be close to 50s lol
> 
> I feel my prep and surfing deffo isn't as good as it could be.......I can see a pid on the horizon


OK, so what is your prep?

Purge grinder with a few g, grind dose into cup/pot, confirm weight to 0.1g, shake & transfer to PF, tamp level once?


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

That's basically it. I'm probably not leveling and tamping consistently. Doesn't help that the 58mm motta feels far too small now, rattles around lol, but I don't want to use that as an excuse


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

jj-x-ray said:


> Ims 18g basket....I'm guessing I can only go +/- 1g


Is this the 12-18g Item B682TH24.5M

Or the 16-20g Item B682TH26.5E

I have the standard Gaggia double basket which is 24.5mm deep, same as the 12-18g IMS. The 16-20g IMS is 26mm deep. I've been playing around with doses between 14-16g in my basket to see if this improves taste. Jury is still out - need more experiments but it's not worse.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Actually I think it's the first....dunno why I thought it was an 18g nominal then....

I've probably been overdosing


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

jj-x-ray said:


> Actually I think it's the first....dunno why I thought it was an 18g nominal then....
> 
> I've probably been overdosing


That's what I've been doing - putting in 18g or even 19g. I'm trying out 14-16g to see what that gives. The mid point of 12-18g is 15g. You could give it a whirl!

Is the IMS basket any better than the Gaggia double? I've been eyeing one up....


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

tried 16g at 2:1, sour notes, then 2.5:1 was a bit thin but smoother ............and now ive run out of rio









am opening the gatare next

note to self: 250g is not enough to learn by


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jj-x-ray said:


> tried 16g at 2:1, sour notes, then 2.5:1 was a bit thin but smoother ............and now ive run out of rio
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ratio is coffee to water, so hopefully you are pulling 1:2 and 1:2.5

You could have tried grinder a bit finer and doing 1:2.5 ( if the strength was good for you )


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Tried opening the Gatare this morning......clearly far too early. To say I had a mousetail was an understatement, a giant blonde frothy funnel lol.

Might leave it a few days


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

This thread has inspired me to try different doses in my Gaggia double basket, and after trying doses between 14g and 19g I'd say 16g is the sweet spot. That and increasing the temperature a little with the steam switch. The Gaggia basket is 24mm deep, like the IMS 12-18g one. And curiously the same depth as the VST 18g basket which specifies a dose of 17-19g. The profile may vary from vertical to slightly conical, though. Right now I'm cupping 16g for 32g and adding 100ml milk. Seems to be working better than other combinations I've tried.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

i think adding milk lets me off the hook as it dampens any acridity or sourness.......I can drown any mistakes, though it would stop me chucking coffee away i suppose

im keen to try the steam thingy but probably need a vid as i dont get the technique when blind...


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Use dose to make bigger or smaller amounts of coffee, sense check that it's appropriate to the basket you use.

https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose


----------



## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

Makes sense, at least that's one variable set







Now just got to work out the others!


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Have got on worse with the Gatare than the Rio....Whilst it is undoubtedly fruitier than the Rio, I still can't reach the notes.

My shot prep is ok I think, as I can get an even pour from the bottomless more often than not.

Wondering if the opv mod would make a big difference or whether it would just be covering up my lack of skill somehow


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> Have got on worse with the Gatare than the Rio....Whilst it is undoubtedly fruitier than the Rio, I still can't reach the notes.
> 
> My shot prep is ok I think, as I can get an even pour from the bottomless more often than not.
> 
> Wondering if the opv mod would make a big difference or whether it would just be covering up my lack of skill somehow


What were the details of the shot?


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

18:45 (I've also tried 54) in approx 30s.

I can try more tightening, I guess I'm just fed up with how long it's taking me to dial in shots.....I could faff about more but I'm nearly through the bag


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

We seem to be going on a parallel journey. I'm after better shots with a 500g bag of Columbian decaf I got at the show. The shot I drank there on their high-end equipment was much sweeter than what I'm getting. Coffee is exactly the same, same date etc. although days have passed now. I lowered my OPV to 9.5 bar static and I'm not convinced. That's probably 8.5 or even 8 bar static with a 16g dose. I could take it up to 10 bar static. The 0.5 bar difference should be negligible, though. I'm persevering with 16g since that tastes best in the Gaggia basket, but I'm finding lower ratios better like 1:1.5 with this coffee. I'm grinding quite fine with all these combinations to get a 30 sec pour. The finer I grind the more clumpy it gets. I don't think I'm in the ballpark yet, and pulling shots at the wrong temperature may be a significant part of it.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> 18:45 (I've also tried 54) in approx 30s.
> 
> I can try more tightening, I guess I'm just fed up with how long it's taking me to dial in shots.....I could faff about more but I'm nearly through the bag


OK, stop.

You just opened this bag, how can you nearly be through it? You have only mentioned 2 shots from it?

You haven't mentioned any grind changes. There must have been some to keep shot time ~30s?

You haven't mentioned how the taste changed across the shots?

Your mission, should you choose to accept it, is get in the ball-park in 3 shots.

Forget 30s, forget flow rate. 18:54g, what's the grind setting, how long does it take & describe what's wrong with it?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This myth that a shot must take 30 seconds where is it being perpetuated?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MWJB said:


> OK, stop.
> 
> You just opened this bag, how can you nearly be through it? You have only mentioned 2 shots from it?
> 
> ...


Just a thought, are we sure 18g is the appropriate dose, didn't you go to 16g?


----------



## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> This myth that a shot must take 30 seconds where is it being perpetuated?


It's all over the internet - mainly Youtube videos. Probably intended to be presented as an initial ballpark, but then limited advice on where to go from there if you don't like the taste. The result is that a lot of people (myself included) aim for 1:2 in 25-30s. When I was using the Classic, espresso taste was not so critical for me because I always drank flat whites. Any shots I tried as espresso were sharp or bitter or sour but I wan't really bothered about the world of espresso. I was getting clean pours so I put it down to poor temperature stability. In truth, I had no idea how to taste, diagnose what wasn't right and adjust, not did I have the desire or patience to experiment. Also, I was never that convinced the Classic was the machine for nice espresso.

One of my reasons for getting the Technika was to explore espresso more and this is when I started to do more research. I found the Matt Perger video on espresso recipes was very helpful, although there is similarly good information on the forum. Anyway, this thread seems to capture the challenge of getting in the ballpark, tasting and then knowing what to adjust if the taste isn't to your liking. So, experiment with ratio, then fix it and then time to reach the ratio - always weigh dose and shot and stop the shot at the required ratio. Adjust the grind to shorten or lengthen the time according to taste. I am now having some success, although more by trial and error

What would be useful is a simple guide - what to if your shot is sour, what if it is bitter and you want more sweetness etc. This would help people get to the taste they want more quickly. This is all assuming you can tell sour from bitter or at least know what you don't like about the taste of a particular shot.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

MWJB said:


> OK, stop.
> 
> You just opened this bag, how can you nearly be through it? You have only mentioned 2 shots from it?
> 
> ...


I'm not making a diary of every single shot I pull on here....I think that would be a bit much for the reader. I've made plenty of shots in the interim period but still haven't nailed it yet. Taste is always lacking that sweetness.

I'm not trying to hit 30secs as before I was on 40 plus. I'm just using it as a useful benchmark (25-30 is a highly referred to time range on this very forum). I am going if taste as recommended, just not achieving the right combo yet. This is likely down to my inexperience.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

StuartS said:


> What would be useful is a simple guide - what to if your shot is sour, what if it is bitter and you want more sweetness etc. This would help people get to the taste they want more quickly. This is all assuming you can tell sour from bitter or at least know what you don't like about the taste of a particular shot.


The only trouble here is assuming that bitter = over-extraction and that over-extraction is a common fault. Maybe it is more common with very dark beans, I don't know...I have been served over-extracted espresso in non-speciality settings, but most bitter espresso I have made has been at a normal/low extraction. If you grind too fine you get more silt in the cup, this flattens off sweetness & clarity, can be bitter (but in a different way to over-extraction).

The simplest thing is to ascertain an appropriate dose for the basket (coin trick, recommendations from other users with the same basket), start long on the shot, say 1:4 (more water pushed through the puck makes a sweet but possibly weak extraction more feasible), then work finer & shorter to bolster the strength without losing the sweetness.

Starting off at a short ratio that might not be consistently feasible if you don't have a grinder up to it/close fitting tamper etc., and then pounding away at that ratio, that may rarely work for you, seems destined to waste a lot of beans.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> I'm not making a diary of every single shot I pull on here....I think that would be a bit much for the reader.


This would be the only way we could see any methodical progression & then help. Otherwise all we see is, "I made loads of shots, tried different doses, different grinds, different ratios & nothing worked." If this is true, what you are trying to achieve is probably impossible, not just for you, but for everyone.

Those shots you made in the interim sound like they were wasted, wouldn't it have been better to hopefully enjoyed half of them? What did you learn from these shots?


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

I can see where you're going, MWJB, analyse the data. But recording it and analysing it are two different things! In my case I've been recording all my significant shots in Excel for a month or two, but frankly it's hard to work out what factors do what when you don't have an accurate temperature gauge on a Classic. Even with the same beans, they get older day by day, you adjust the grind and that changes other factors, the tamp isn't necessarily the same and so on. It's a minefield. The sweetest shots I got were ages ago when the OPV was 11, I used my Mazzer Mini instead of the SJ, and used different beans. Not sure how that helps. But your comments are really useful.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

les24preludes said:


> I can see where you're going, MWJB, analyse the data. But recording it and analysing it are two different things! In my case I've been recording all my significant shots in Excel for a month or two, but frankly it's hard to work out what factors do what when you don't have an accurate temperature gauge on a Classic. Even with the same beans, they get older day by day, you adjust the grind and that changes other factors, the tamp isn't necessarily the same and so on. It's a minefield. The sweetest shots I got were ages ago when the OPV was 11, I used my Mazzer Mini instead of the SJ, and used different beans. Not sure how that helps. But your comments are really useful.


OK, so look through those shots, what are the common features of the best ones? How do they differ from the poorer ones.

In dialling in a bag of coffee, once degassed sufficiently (5-10days), the changes you make will have the biggest influence on the outcome - beans a few days older won't upset everything, a few weeks more like. Changing grind changes extraction & flavour balance, the other factors (the only one I can think of is time) are by-products of that, not factors in themselves.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

I too have a gaggia and had a lot of issues with the Rio Magdalena im also using the standard double basket and using a standard 1:2 ratio so 17g in and around 36g's out.

I always seem to have issues hitting the flavour notes with single origins as supposed to blends with the gaggia and mignon


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jj-x-ray said:


> 18:45 (I've also tried 54) in approx 30s.
> 
> I can try more tightening, I guess I'm just fed up with how long it's taking me to dial in shots.....I could faff about more but I'm nearly through the bag


Do yourself a favour & stick to one bean from one roaster for the time being. It pretty much removes 1 variable & your grinder should be near enough dialed in for the new bag.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Do yourself a favour & stick to one bean from one roaster for the time being. It pretty much removes 1 variable & your grinder should be near enough dialed in for the new bag.


Yeh I think I got too excited with getting my new grinder and went on a bean spree.....I think my ambitions exceeded my ability.

Luckily my next bag is 1kg of mystery no7

Might give me some breathing space.


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Breezy said:


> I too have a gaggia and had a lot of issues with the Rio Magdalena im also using the standard double basket and using a standard 1:2 ratio so 17g in and around 36g's out. I always seem to have issues hitting the flavour notes with single origins as supposed to blends with the gaggia and mignon


Interesting - I prefer the single origins but I'm decaf only. I think 17g should be about right. I'm going lower in ratio - around 1:1.6. Did that today with a DD Ethiopian and got a great cup after all my frustrations with Columbian, so must be doing something right. Used the steam switch to add a little heat. Pour lasted over a minute and was drips only at the start, but the result was great. Goes back to "who said 30 secs was ideal?"


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

les24preludes said:


> Interesting - I prefer the single origins but I'm decaf only. I think 17g should be about right. I'm going lower in ratio - around 1:1.6. Did that today with a DD Ethiopian and got a great cup after all my frustrations with Columbian, so must be doing something right. Used the steam switch to add a little heat. Pour lasted over a minute and was drips only at the start, but the result was great. Goes back to "who said 30 secs was ideal?"


Interesting so how many grams in and volume out? Not heard of using the steam switch to increase temp either too the single origins always seem to take a lot more fine tuning


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

I'm also thinking of getting the Magdalena again seeing as I spent so long dialling it in and was the general consensus it needed a longer extraction time on the gaggia?


----------



## Kitkat (Jan 25, 2018)

I struggled with the Rio Magdalena too (have Gaggia Classic). I was getting somewhere when I reached the end of the packet. I put 16g in a stock double basket although think I may have still been putting 17g in at that time come to think of it. I do recall getting the best results with a shorter shot (think it was about 17g in and 28-30g out) in about 35 seconds.

Love the phrase bean spree! I've been guilty of that and my ambitions most certainly exceed my ability...


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

Kitkat said:


> I struggled with the Rio Magdalena too (have Gaggia Classic). I was getting somewhere when I reached the end of the packet. I put 16g in a stock double basket although think I may have still been putting 17g in at that time come to think of it. I do recall getting the best results with a shorter shot (think it was about 17g in and 28-30g out) in about 35 seconds.
> 
> Love the phrase bean spree! I've been guilty of that and my ambitions most certainly exceed my ability...


Ok so it sounds like I need to grind a little finer to get less volume in the same extraction time


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Kitkat said:


> I do recall getting the best results with a shorter shot (think it was about 17g in and 28-30g out) in about 35 seconds.


Got a good shot this evening at last - pretty much as above. 17g in and 35g out in 25 seconds. I think temperature plays a big part - seemed to get that right.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> Got a good shot this evening at last - pretty much as above. 17g in and 35g out in 25 seconds. I think temperature plays a big part - seemed to get that right.


Nice. I think temp is the one thing I have the least control over.

Changed to an ims screen and brass dispersion plate, but can't seem to get a nice flow pattern no matter how I adjust the screw tension. The flows out of the bottomless look good though.

Final beans went through this morning. 18:45 in 35s ...sour sinker. Mission failure with the Gatare.

I'll deffo get the Rio again as I think I was getting somewhere with that until I ran out, whereas I've been all at sea with the Gatare.

Hopefully better luck with the mystery no7/8


----------



## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I had an espresso this morning that was 17g into 65g in 50sec that was one of the better shots I've had this year. It was from a Classic and a Major.

Make of that what you will.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Wow. Instant success with the mystery kilo. Same grind setting as the Gatare, which is now clearly finer for this bean 18:36 in 45s. Smooth, sweet toffee notes and only a hint of sour at bottom of the cup. Best shot I've made with my classic thus far. .

Think I'll try a longer ratio tomorrow, see where that takes me, but I'd be happy leaving it at this combo.

Shame I couldn't achieve this with the Gatare...on reflection I should have gone much finer perhaps..


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

jj-x-ray said:


> Wow. Instant success with the mystery kilo. Same grind setting as the Gatare, which is now clearly finer for this bean 18:36 in 45s. Smooth, sweet toffee notes and only a hint of sour at bottom of the cup. Best shot I've made with my classic thus far. .
> 
> Think I'll try a longer ratio tomorrow, see where that takes me, but I'd be happy leaving it at this combo.
> 
> Shame I couldn't achieve this with the Gatare...on reflection I should have gone much finer perhaps..


What you could do is pull exactly the same shot a few times and see if it stays the same. If not could be the temperature that is changing the result.

Do you weigh as you are pulling the shot? I must confess that my scales doesn't fit under the Classic, so I guess and weigh afterwards. Not ideal.


----------



## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> I must confess that my scales doesn't fit under the Classic, so I guess and weigh afterwards. Not ideal.


Maybe you could try taking the drip tray out and sticking a tea towel/cloth underneath the 3 way solenoid pipe?


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

so sounds like for the gaggia you need to grind finer and use a much longer extraction? as im usually just going for 17g in -> 36g out within 25-30 seconds

hmm to get the Magdalena again or not! thinking of just going for the Horsham Workhorse blend!


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Jon_Foster said:


> Maybe you could try taking the drip tray out and sticking a tea towel/cloth underneath the 3 way solenoid pipe?


No - the scales are too wide to fit. Need some that are narrower than the drip tray. Good reminder about the pipe! Maybe that could be diverted into a cup or some other bit of lateral thinking.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

les24preludes said:


> Do you weigh as you are pulling the shot? I must confess that my scales doesn't fit under the Classic, so I guess and weigh afterwards. Not ideal.


Do you have a bigger, wider cup that will fit around the spouts?


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Do you have a bigger, wider cup that will fit around the spouts?


Not sure what you mean there. I take the spouts off since it's just me drinking the coffee. I'm going to convert one of my PFs to bottomless. I'll get a hole saw. Available in 44mm and 51mm. May try the 44mm - that's the diameter of the holes in the basket. Might contain a bit of the spritzing.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

les24preludes said:


> Not sure what you mean there. I take the spouts off since it's just me drinking the coffee. I'm going to convert one of my PFs to bottomless. I'll get a hole saw. Available in 44mm and 51mm. May try the 44mm - that's the diameter of the holes in the basket. Might contain a bit of the spritzing.


Sorry, I wasn't sure whether it was a height issue - if you had a wide rimmed cup (5-6oz) that was short enough, it could perhaps encompass the spouts, rather than having to have the spouts above the rim of the cup/glass. Sounds like you have it covered though.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

I bought these scales and they fit perfectly on top of the gaggia trip tray and allow me to weight shots when pulling very handy!


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> What you could do is pull exactly the same shot a few times and see if it stays the same. If not could be the temperature that is changing the result.
> 
> Do you weigh as you are pulling the shot? I must confess that my scales doesn't fit under the Classic, so I guess and weigh afterwards. Not ideal.


Yes I weigh. I use amir type scales like breezy although mine are the 0.1 resolution, 2kg max ones. I can fit this plus a rhinowares double spout measuring cup underneath the naked portafilter.

The only thing I can do at the mo for temp is to flush water into a cup until light goes out....fit portafilter, cup and scales, then pull shot as soon as light comes back on. At least I know the boiler has just hit it's top temp. After that it's too much guess work.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

how are you getting on? I decided to get another kg of the Rio Magdalena to avoid having to do any more dealing in as I increased my grind this morning and extraction was 17g > 30g in 30 secs which gave a much better shot with the flavours really coming through!

I've never really taken the temperature control as an issue with the gaggia but whats the deal with switching on the steam switch does this allow for the maximum temperature?


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Breezy said:


> how are you getting on? I decided to get another kg of the Rio Magdalena to avoid having to do any more dealing in as I increased my grind this morning and extraction was 17g > 30g in 30 secs which gave a much better shot with the flavours really coming through!
> 
> I've never really taken the temperature control as an issue with the gaggia but whats the deal with switching on the steam switch does this allow for the maximum temperature?


That's a good question. As far as I understand the steam switch increases the temperature more rapidly and/or can take you up beyond the limits of the brew thermostat. So it's good for quick heating, like when making multiple shots. It also becomes useful when the thermostat on the Classic isn't functioning at the right temperature. I have 2 Classics, both pre-Philips, and the later one brews hotter which I assume means the thermostat is operating at a different and probably correct temperature. Not sure what the variance in these parts is or how age can change that. With my older one i used the steam switch to add some more heat.

UPDATE: I took off the shower head and cleaned it, and then got a better tasting cup, less sour/bitter. Asks the question how often you should clean the shower head. It's very simple and quick, in fact.

I also checked the OPV and it was just under 10 bar static, so that's OK. It was 9.5 the last time I checked, so maybe I ought to check that more often as well.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

les24preludes said:


> That's a good question. As far as I understand the steam switch increases the temperature more rapidly and/or can take you up beyond the limits of the brew thermostat. So it's good for quick heating, like when making multiple shots. It also becomes useful when the thermostat on the Classic isn't functioning at the right temperature. I have 2 Classics, both pre-Philips, and the later one brews hotter which I assume means the thermostat is operating at a different and probably correct temperature. Not sure what the variance in these parts is or how age can change that. With my older one i used the steam switch to add some more heat.
> 
> UPDATE: I took off the shower head and cleaned it, and then got a better tasting cup, less sour/bitter. Asks the question how often you should clean the shower head. It's very simple and quick, in fact.
> 
> I also checked the OPV and it was just under 10 bar static, so that's OK. It was 9.5 the last time I checked, so maybe I ought to check that more often as well.


It'll heat up in the same time on the steam switch as on the brew switch as it's using the same elements. The only difference is the temperature the thermostats switch off at.

Mechanical thermostats can degrade over time & switch off at lower temps than when new. They don't cost much though so you may as well replace if not fitting a PID instead.


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> It'll heat up in the same time on the steam switch as on the brew switch as it's using the same elements. The only difference is the temperature the thermostats switch off at.
> 
> Mechanical thermostats can degrade over time & switch off at lower temps than when new. They don't cost much though so you may as well replace if not fitting a PID instead.


Yeah - that makes sense. Just seems the steam switch heats quicker but it's an illusion. It's just not being limited by the brew stat. On my older Gaggia I think it's possible the stat had deteriorated slightly - I was using the steam switch all the time. I read horror stories of stats shearing off since the thread is soft brass and over-tightening can be risky. I'm using my newer Classic anyway.

On another note I'm trying to optimise everything and one factor needing it was the water - London tap water. Tried some Tesco Ashdown today and I think the cup tasted a little better if I'm not hallucinating. I don't know what weight to put on the water in the question of flavour? Anyone have a point of view?


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

so atm im getting a better shot using 17g > 30g in 40 secs but still a tiny bit of sourness so am I over extracting?


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Breezy said:


> so atm im getting a better shot using 17g > 30g in 40 secs but still a tiny bit of sourness so am I over extracting?


Try a longer ratio eg 2.5 or 3 rather than the 2ish you're at. Same grind settings. See if that smooths the flavour out


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

jj-x-ray said:


> Try a longer ratio eg 2.5 or 3 rather than the 2ish you're at. Same grind settings. See if that smooths the flavour out


so same grind, same weight e.g 17g just longer extracted weight?


----------



## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

jj-x-ray said:


> Final beans went through this morning. 18:45 in 35s ...sour sinker. Mission failure with the Gatare.


Surprised to hear that. Foundry Gatare are the best beans I ever had.

My recipe is 93deg, 18.5g in vst18, 37g out in 42s. This 42s includes 12s preinfusion at 2 bar and slow ramp up to 9bar in 4s. It was a very fruity espresso I enjoined for a while so I ordered a kg that should arrive today.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Breezy said:


> so same grind, same weight e.g 17g just longer extracted weight?


Yep same input weight bigger output. Same grind settings will mean a longer extraction time...


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

iulianato said:


> Surprised to hear that. Foundry Gatare are the best beans I ever had.
> 
> My recipe is 93deg, 18.5g in vst18, 37g out in 42s. This 42s includes 12s preinfusion at 2 bar and slow ramp up to 9bar in 4s. It was a very fruity espresso I enjoined for a while so I ordered a kg that should arrive today.


I wouldn't be surprised, I'm new to all this and am making plenty of mistakes. I will get the Gatare again when I feel a bit more confidence......I'm loving compass mystery kilo at the mo.

I don't have pid, pressure profiling nor a 9bar opv mod though.....so I'm not sure if be able to achieve the same as you anyway.


----------



## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

My understanding of the extraction is that first part is sour, middle is sweet and last is bitter. This is due to how the oils are extracted. Some are extracted more quickly some needs more time. I know I seen a better explanation on this forum somewhere but I can't recall where. Someone suggested to do a normal 1:2 30s extraction drop de first and last parts and taste the middle...


----------



## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

I know, that shouldn't put you off. My point with the recipe is that it is just a normal 30s shot in fact. The preinfusion is only preparing the puck for the extraction an it should not make a big difference taste wise. All the factors together (temp, pressure, preparation) will make a difference but if you achieved something with RM you should be able to achieve the same with Gatare unless RM is dark roast and perhaps you are inclined towards darks. (I have no experience with RM)



jj-x-ray said:


> I wouldn't be surprised, I'm new to all this and am making plenty of mistakes. I will get the Gatare again when I feel a bit more confidence......I'm loving compass mystery kilo at the mo.
> 
> I don't have pid, pressure profiling nor a 9bar opv mod though.....so I'm not sure if be able to achieve the same as you anyway.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

it terms of timing with the gaggia are people starting the timer from when you press the button or when the shot starts to come out?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> it terms of timing with the gaggia are people starting the timer from when you press the button or when the shot starts to come out?


From pressing the button.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

iulianato said:


> My understanding of the extraction is that first part is sour, middle is sweet and last is bitter. This is due to how the oils are extracted. Some are extracted more quickly some needs more time. I know I seen a better explanation on this forum somewhere but I can't recall where. Someone suggested to do a normal 1:2 30s extraction drop de first and last parts and taste the middle...


How the whole shot tastes is more relevant. The easiest way to explore different extractions is to pull different length shots at the same grind.


----------



## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

MWJB said:


> How the whole shot tastes is more relevant. The easiest way to explore different extractions is to pull different length shots at the same grind.


Right, might be not taste the middle only. Taste all three to see the difference: sour, sweet, bitter. The ideea is that we want them all together in one dink and not separate but balanced in one way or another.

Then going too fine with the grind will give you a slow pour in 30s - sour . Going too coarse will give you a fast pour over 30s - bitter. Am I right? Now having the grinder set for 1:2 in 30s and having a shorter or longer shot will balance towards sourness and respectively twards bitterness. This way you can play with it, I think, but could be tricky because shorter will be stronger and longer will be weaker so big impact on perception.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tasting 3 sections of the same shot will have a much bigger swing in strength than tasting a whole shot.

The trouble with determinations like sour & bitter, is bitter can happen anywhere and be separate to over-extraction. At 1:2 a lot of folk will struggle to over-extract at all.

A fast shot could be sour (under extracted) it could be weak, sweet but simple (even more under extracted) or it could be well balanced & sweet if you put enough water through it.

There's nothing magic about 30s...if you grind fine, or coarse & your shots take 30s, then they aren't fast or slow, they're all the same time.  What will make them have a different flavour balance is the amount in the cup.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

jj-x-ray said:


> Yep same input weight bigger output. Same grind settings will mean a longer extraction time...


Ok new batch of Magdalena arrived today same grind settings and I did

17g > 36g in 43 seconds

shot tastes sharp / sour but the beans have only been resting for 5 days so am guessing that will play an important part


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

So sounds like it's being under extracted? Higher ratio? Finer grind?


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

id try higher ratios before grinding finer....plus yeh let the beans rest a tad longer perhaps


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

jj-x-ray said:


> id try higher ratios before grinding finer....plus yeh let the beans rest a tad longer perhaps


Ok so something like 40g out? What's the limit in terms of volume


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

i think the limit would be taste.... i tried 1:3 so 18:54, which still tastes good to me, but 1:2.5 is really good with the mystery kilo..........totally depends on the bean and your tastebuds. If 1:3 doesnt work try going finer and go back to 1:2


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

Ok so just did :

17g > 40g in 40 secs and no sourness and I could actually taste the caramel and flavours coming through!


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

So always start with 1:2 and then adjust the Magdalena has been trickier to get the flavours from


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

So once I know the good espresso ratio will that marry up with a pour over too?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> So once I know the good espresso ratio will that marry up with a pour over too?


It's easier to extract pourover to higher level, but broadly they should taste similar, but the espresso should of course be more concentrated.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

thanks for all the help chaps always assumed mot espressos should be 1:2 and within 25-30 secs although I guess thats a good starting point!

The Magdelena deaf needs 1:2.5-3 so assuming that ratio then for a pour over I should aim for 17g ground and have usually been aiming for around 250g volume so I should just increase this and see how it tastes?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> The Magdelena deaf needs 1:2.5-3 so assuming that ratio then for a pour over I should aim for 17g ground and have usually been aiming for around 250g volume so I should just increase this and see how it tastes?


Depends on the brewer, but generally aim 60-65g/L for pourover (so 17g to 260-285g...I'd start around the higher weight). The grind sets the flavour balance (for a known recipe/brew weights), as with espresso brew ratio primarily dictates strength (17:250 would be a bit strong for me as pourover, but OK in a Clever brew).

A lot of espresso at home might be hard to extract at 1:2, if this ratio limits your extractions (mostly sour) then going longer can help lift it. For pourover you are putting 7 or 8 times the water through the bed, this will make extraction easier generally.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Depends on the brewer, but generally aim 60-65g/L for pourover (so 17g to 260-285g...I'd start around the higher weight). The grind sets the flavour balance (for a known recipe/brew weights), as with espresso brew ratio primarily dictates strength (17:250 would be a bit strong for me as pourover, but OK in a Clever brew).
> 
> A lot of espresso at home might be hard to extract at 1:2, if this ratio limits your extractions (mostly sour) then going longer can help lift it. For pourover you are putting 7 or 8 times the water through the bed, this will make extraction easier generally.


just tried the pour over and 280g was spot on best pour over I've made!

Could taste all the flavours in the Magdalena although filters are beast within the first two weeks?

in regards to my espresso the extraction time starting creeping up so 17g > 40g was taking around 52 secs so am I right in coarsening up the grind a bit to slow it down?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> just tried the pour over and 280g was spot on best pour over I've made!
> 
> Could taste all the flavours in the Magdalena although filters are beast within the first two weeks?
> 
> in regards to my espresso the extraction time starting creeping up so 17g > 40g was taking around 52 secs so am I right in coarsening up the grind a bit to slow it down?


Good news on the pourover.

What is there that you don't like about the taste of the 17:40g in 52s shots?


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

So trying to get the sweet spot with the Horsham Brazil recanto and recommendations on their site are a ratio of 1 - 2.1

So with the gaggia I'm doing 17g > 40g in around 45 seconds and am still getting some sourness if I grind finer the gaggia struggles so what are my best options here!


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Try pulling shorter say 35-36 gms . See the time taken to obtain this amount, try aiming at 25-28 secs


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> So trying to get the sweet spot with the Horsham Brazil recanto and recommendations on their site are a ratio of 1 - 2.1
> 
> So with the gaggia I'm doing 17g > 40g in around 45 seconds and am still getting some sourness if I grind finer the gaggia struggles so what are my best options here!


Grind coarser.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

17g>36g in 28 seconds still sour


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> 17g>36g in 28 seconds still sour


Go 51g out.

If it's OK, but a little weak, try a tiny nudge finer.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

helped me greatly in my attempts to get the best out of a bean.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Go 51g out.
> 
> If it's OK, but a little weak, try a tiny nudge finer.


36g out in 35 seconds was much better, where did 51g come from seems like a lot of volume?

51g within around 30 secs still?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> 36g out in 35 seconds was much better, where did 51g come from seems like a lot of volume?
> 
> 51g within around 30 secs still?


Sourness is under-extraction. Grinding finer (which sounds like what you just did, compared to the 28s shot) or pushing more water through the puck will extract more.

1:3 is fairly normal. If you get a balanced shot there & then want to see if you can get that balance at a shorter shot, go finer.

As for time, generally more than 20s. Aim for the target weight & adjust grind setting, record the time that the good tasting grind setting takes to get there, don't 'aim' for the time. Different coffees will take different times, as will different grinders.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Sourness is under-extraction. Grinding finer (which sounds like what you just did, compared to the 28s shot) or pushing more water through the puck will extract more.
> 
> 1:3 is fairly normal. If you get a balanced shot there & then want to see if you can get that balance at a shorter shot, go finer.
> 
> As for time, generally more than 20s. Aim for the target weight & adjust grind setting, record the time that the good tasting grind setting takes to get there, don't 'aim' for the time. Different coffees will take different times, as will different grinders.


Ok so I did 17 > 51 in around 50 seconds and the shot still had some sourness still but it also tasted ever so slightly bitter so does that mean it's been slightly over extracted? So drop the ratio to 1:2:5 with the same settings?

tasting notes for this bean are amaretto, fudge and date and so far im

not getting any of this!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> Ok so I did 17 > 51 in around 50 seconds and the shot still had some sourness still but it also tasted ever so slightly bitter so does that mean it's been slightly over extracted? So drop the ratio to 1:2:5 with the same settings?
> 
> tasting notes for this bean are amaretto, fudge and date and so far im
> 
> not getting any of this!


Unlikely it is over-extracted, as you're still getting sourness. Try going a little coarser, the bitterness may be a flat spot in flavour balance (low side of normal extraction) or silt washed out into the cup from too fine a grind.

1:2.5 at this setting will still likely be sour as you will have put less water through the puck (extracted less).


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Noticed you have a classic. Are you temp surfing?


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

ashcroc said:


> Noticed you have a classic. Are you temp surfing?


no I've heard this mentioned in the past and I'm guessing this might be the issue with this particular bean...


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

just found the following quote from this thread:

When I used my Classic I always used temp surfing and would always flick the steam switch 6 seconds before pulling the shot as I found it gave me a better (less sour) shot.

I'm guessing that could be it!

so how long do people usually leave their gaggia classic on for before pulling shots? and it only seems to be our sour with certain beans?


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Breezy said:


> just found the following quote from this thread:
> 
> When I used my Classic I always used temp surfing and would always flick the steam switch 6 seconds before pulling the shot as I found it gave me a better (less sour) shot.
> 
> ...


I never bothered with the steam switch on my tebe. Just started pouring as soon as the ready light came on. I suppose if your stat is old & turning off early turning the elements on with the stream switch may work but getting the same temp every time (& not over heating the water) would be an art.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

seems certain beans react to temperature more than others but first thing in the morning I turn the machine on and usually grind and pull the shot within about 5 mins... so I recon this is definitely the issue most likely... is there a good starting procedure guide for how long the classic should be left to warm up and how long the steam wand should be purged before pulling the shot?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Breezy said:


> seems certain beans react to temperature more than others but first thing in the morning I turn the machine on and usually grind and pull the shot within about 5 mins... so I recon this is definitely the issue most likely... is there a good starting procedure guide for how long the classic should be left to warm up and how long the steam wand should be purged before pulling the shot?


about 15-20 minutes to get the group to temp


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

so I guess its worth just trying the shots after 20 mins first.... and im guessing some different beans will re-act differently to brew temp?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Breezy said:


> so I guess its worth just trying the shots after 20 mins first.... and im guessing some different beans will re-act differently to brew temp?


Yes.


----------



## Kitkat (Jan 25, 2018)

Breezy said:


> seems certain beans react to temperature more than others but first thing in the morning I turn the machine on and usually grind and pull the shot within about 5 mins... so I recon this is definitely the issue most likely... is there a good starting procedure guide for how long the classic should be left to warm up and how long the steam wand should be purged before pulling the shot?


I used to do this with my Classic until I realised it wasn't really hot enough. When I started letting it warm up for at least 20 mins I noticed the biggest improvement in flavour of anything I tried. I usually leave it for at least half an hour but 15-20 mins will suffice when I'm desperate for a coffee.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

So I have the PID installed now and this has made a big improvement question is now I have a light / medium blend which I'm still getting some sourness from with 17g > 38g in 45 secs at 93 degrees

this is was the recommended temp to use but should I increase it and is there a good ballpark for light / medium roasts?


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Have you tried running the shot to 42g out? If not try that and see if it tastes better.

If you still don't like it go very slightly coarser and try 42g out.

I tend to use 93c for most stuff apart from really dark beans. I did used to go up to 94c for lighter stuff but I've got into the routine of not and get good results (but that's just my opinion).


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Have you tried running the shot to 42g out? If not try that and see if it tastes better.
> 
> If you still don't like it go very slightly coarser and try 42g out.
> 
> I tend to use 93c for most stuff apart from really dark beans. I did used to go up to 94c for lighter stuff but I've got into the routine of not and get good results (but that's just my opinion).


Cool will give it a try I figured increasing volume is probably the next best step but at least now I know temperature will be consistent for once 

also so for the gaggia classic users what's everyone generally dosing with as I've always gone with 17g?


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Breezy said:


> Cool will give it a try I figured increasing volume is probably the next best step but at least now I know temperature will be consistent for once
> 
> also so for the gaggia classic users what's everyone generally dosing with as I've always gone with 17g?


What basket are you using?


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> What basket are you using?


standard gaggia double, I have wondered whether or not to upgrade to a vst? Also using a Eureka Mignon MK2 grinder


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Breezy said:


> standard gaggia double, I have wondered whether or not to upgrade to a vst? Also using a Eureka Mignon MK2 grinder


Standard basket is 14-16g dose. This maybe why it's tasting sour. Try a lower dose, you may have to go a bit finer.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

The standard gaggia double is around 14g though depending on the bean a bit more may fit while leaving enough space for the grinds to expand.

I dose 18g but use either a VST or IMS basket. The IMS is a touch more forgiving of prep. With the VST it has to be perfect.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Standard basket is 14-16g dose. This maybe why it's tasting sour. Try a lower dose, you may have to go a bit finer.


Will give 16g a try thanks, does anyone with a gaggia use a vst and if so is it a worthwhile upgrade?



urbanbumpkin said:


> If you still don't like it go very slightly coarser and try 42g out.


did you mean coarser or finer?


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Also if you're single dosing with the Mignon check what's coming out as they can retain


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Breezy said:


> Will give 16g a try thanks, does anyone with a gaggia use a vst and if so is it a worthwhile upgrade?
> 
> did you mean coarser or finer?


If you're dropping the dose you'll need to grind finer.


----------



## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Not sure if this has already been posted (13 pages to trawl through) but I found this quite useful when first trying to get properly dialled in (the brewed version is damn useful too)

https://baristahustle.com/blog/the-espresso-compass/

The main issue is some of the descriptors are a bit subjective, but if you basically move in the direction you thought you should go and things go worse, then you kinda know that you are going in the wrong direction.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Also if you're single dosing with the Mignon check what's coming out as they can retain


yep I am single dosing and usually give the mignon and bit of a jiggle to get all of the grinds out as I've noticed it can retain some

so plan is try 16g and aim for more volume at 42g out and see what it tastes like?


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Breezy said:


> yep I am single dosing and usually give the mignon and bit of a jiggle to get all of the grinds out as I've noticed it can retain some
> 
> so plan is try 16g and aim for more volume at 42g out and see what it tastes like?


As your only dosing 16g maybe aim for a lower extraction output say 34g to begin with and see what it tastes like.

Time wise anything over 25 secs. Most of mine tend to be 30-45 secs.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Also if youÂ're single dosing with the Mignon check whatÂ's coming out as they can retain


so this morning 16g > 42g in 48 seconds no sourness much more balanced flavours and acidity 

guess it was a combination of lower sowing and increased extraction so 16g should be the starting point?


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Good to hear. You're getting better results.

Keeping everything the same, see what the shot tastes like at 36g out.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Good to hear. You're getting better results.
> 
> Keeping everything the same, see what the shot tastes like at 36g out.


keeping everything the same the shot tasted a little bit under extracted (sour) so I'm guessing I just need to tighten up the grind a bit to get the same extraction I got with 42g out @ 36g out?


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Give that a try, see what it tastes like. If you still don't like the taste go back the first one you did.

Are you using a naked PF?


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Give that a try, see what it tastes like. If you still don't like the taste go back the first one you did.
> 
> Are you using a naked PF?


Standard double basket and portafilter


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Are you doing WDT (with a cut down yoghurt pot). I was just thinking Mignon tend to clump and can cause channelling.

I used to do WDT with my Mignon/ Classic set up to get consistent results.

Naked PF shows up any issues you have in basket prep (as I found out the hard way







.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

this thread has provided me a lot of useful info! so I've recently returned to the Foundry Rio De Magdalena which I had issues with prior to installing the PID on my Gaggia.

So previously with this bean I was dosing 17g and getting a decent extraction at around 17g > 40g in around 42 seconds so I tried 16g > 38-40g out in about 45 seconds and it tasted a but bitter and not all the flavour are coming through so with a lower input volume I know I need to grind finer but as the total volume of water is less do I need to extract less volume say 34g?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Breezy said:


> this thread has provided me a lot of useful info! so I've recently returned to the Foundry Rio De Magdalena which I had issues with prior to installing the PID on my Gaggia.
> 
> So previously with this bean I was dosing 17g and getting a decent extraction at around 17g > 40g in around 42 seconds so I tried 16g > 38-40g out in about 45 seconds and it tasted a but bitter and not all the flavour are coming through so with a lower input volume I know I need to grind finer but as the total volume of water is less do I need to extract less volume say 34g?


I used to use dose to set the amount of coffee i wanted to make.

Bigger dose = more coffee.

Caveat being that it needed to be appropriate to the basket I was using.

Why did you change the dose after a goodish 17>40 shot ? what was lacking in it , was it too strong , too weak , bitter , not sweet enough?

In answer to your specific question , all things being equal 16> 40 should be extracting more than 17>40 as you are putting more water thought the coffee.

If you want to try and do the same but with a lower dose then do 16g> 38g , taste then adjust.


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

This is a very valid point if 17g tasted good why change!

ultimately I was just trying to see if I can get the same flavour profile / results with less overall volume so 36g as supposed to 40g


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

Breezy said:


> This is a very valid point if 17g tasted good why change!
> 
> ultimately I was just trying to see if I can get the same flavour profile / results with less overall volume so 36g as supposed to 40g


so 17g > 42g in 44 seconds was absolutely bang on the money!

so to achieve a slightly lower volume say 38g I would just need to grind finer and aim for the extraction in the same time?


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

So with my Mignon Mk2 grinder I've noticed inconsistencies recently eg having to tweak to grind daily as i'm

not getting the same extraction and time with shots, could this be due to the burrs being on their way out?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> So with my Mignon Mk2 grinder I've noticed inconsistencies recently eg having to tweak to grind daily as i'm
> 
> not getting the same extraction and time with shots, could this be due to the burrs being on their way out?


Why are you trying to get the same time?


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Why are you trying to get the same time?


Well trying to get the same volume which is 17g > 42g in around 42 seconds

but this morning the same shot was extracting too slowly without touching the grind from the previous day


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Breezy said:


> Well trying to get the same volume which is 17g > 42g in around 42 seconds
> 
> but this morning the same shot was extracting too slowly without touching the grind from the previous day


You want to hit 42g, but you don't need to hit 42s each time. +/-3-4 sec might be perfectly normal.

Did you purge the grinder before this morning's shot?

Did you grind in to a cup/pot & check you had 17.0g before transferring to the PF?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Breezy said:


> So with my Mignon Mk2 grinder I've noticed inconsistencies recently eg having to tweak to grind daily as i'm
> 
> not getting the same extraction and time with shots, could this be due to the burrs being on their way out?


Could be prep, coffee, retention, single dosing , it's not the most consistent grinder either


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Could be prep, coffee, retention, single dosing , it's not the most consistent grinder either


Mir hasn't been purged but I will check this and there could be grounds clogged up in and around the burrs which I'll check and this particular coffee requires a finer grind so there is more clumping I didn't know +/- 3~4 seconds was normal too!


----------



## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

Just checked the burrs and I think they could do with replacing as they weren't as sharp compared to when I last checked a few months back


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Breezy said:


> Just checked the burrs and I think they could do with replacing as they weren't as sharp compared to when I last checked a few months back


How long you had them and roughly much coffee have you put through em.


----------

