# Help Extracting Has Bean Bean !



## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Just opened a bag of costa rican finca salaca. They were put in the freezer with valve taped over, taken out last Monday and left at room temp with tape removed.

Anyhoo, pulled a couple of shots both horrible, really sour and fast pouring.

Up to 18g and no 13 on my Sage grinder.

Funny thing is I can't go lower on the grinder as it sounds rough but when I try another bean at this setting it grinds no problem.

I can't put more coffee in the basket and can't grind finer, which I think may be the solution. Any ideas?

The last bag I used (Phil Ter) ground and tasted fine but were not in the freezer, is this the problem?

Thanks


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Try a different temperature

What temp are you running at?


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

I think you were on the right track needing to go finer on the grind as a fast pouring shot will taste sour (i'm guessing you're getting your output way below 25s). Different beans do need different grind settings to achieve the same flow so it might be that these particular beans are a little more lightly roasted than ones you've had before and the grinder just finds them harder to grind (the Sage isn't the most powerful grinder either). I take it you're really not comfortable taking it finer?

Other thing to consider is the older beans get the finer you need to grind in my experience which again may not be helping you either.

Do you have any brew equipment? That needs a courser grind so you could always try the coffee a different way?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Why are you keeping them in the freezer?

Anyhoo. Ignore the sound of the grinder (with beans between the burrs they will be just fine just dont run for extended period of time without beans in) You need to grind finer and/or push more water through.

Have you had a natural process coffee before?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Can't control the temp other than by surfing = gaggia classic.

Beans are just roasted which is why in freezer, I got 5 bags at 250g each so the fourth - fifth bag might be too old by the time I get to it. Is this wrong? Would you suggest just grinding finer but rather than grinding the 18g in a oner do it over a couple of grinds?

I could try it in my stove top percolator.

What is a natural process coffee?

Thanks


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

If your shot times are within reasonable boundaries (26-40 seconds) and it's still not working then you could maybe try getting an extra few degrees by very briefly flicking the steam on and then off again. If it's a fast shot then fix that first, could be the freezing process, I don't know as I don't do it myself.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

mremanxx said:


> Beans are just roasted which is why in freezer,


This makes no sense. The beans will be fine for 3-4 weeks


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

mremanxx said:


> Would you suggest just grinding finer but rather than grinding the 18g in a oner do it over a couple of grinds?


No. all in one go, but set the grinder finer.

Get some training ASAP!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

mremanxx said:


> What is a natural process coffee?
> 
> Thanks


You've a lot of reading to do.

Natural processed coffees are usually described as 'sour' by people who are new to speciality coffee.

Where are you based?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Just outside Edinburgh.

Beans are in freezer as this was a suggestion from other members when I asked for the best way to extend the beans from the roast date. So practise has been use a bag straight away, the Phil Ter bag was suggested, whilst using this had the finca salaca de-gassing (de-gassed for 6 days) as this is a necessary process I have been told and length of de-gassing will vary between bean and roasts.(true/false?).

Opened the salanca and have taken out another batch to be used in a week. So this should mean that once my beans are ready to use after de-gassing until they are finished they would not be any more than about 3 weeks from roasting. Unnecessary practise? It would appear that like most things to do with coffee there is more than one "correct" practice.

Your right though Gary do need to read more but as I stated most people say their way is best


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

As Gary mentioned, the beans will be good for 4 or so weeks without freezing. I would only freeze as a very last resort and would probably freeze right away. There is no reason to do this as a standard practice. By fresh, don't freeze be happy.

The temperature on the classic can be extremely variable as Has Bean are generally a medium roast so you need to be closer to 94-95c rather than anything lower, this can be tricky on the classic. There are posts on this in the classic section on how best to do this.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I had this coffee over Xmas , looking at my sad notes , in my sad little book and spreadsheet

Spro - caramel and treacle with a nice clean grapey bite

Milk - sweet toffee ...

If you can cup it , or brew in a french press...see whats its like before the espresso mangles it .

Also As above if using straight away personally i wouldn't freeze, 4-5 days rest , ok for 2-4 weeks after....


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> As Gary mentioned, the beans will be good for 4 or so weeks without freezing. I would only freeze as a very last resort and would probably freeze right away. There is no reason to do this as a standard practice. By fresh, don't freeze be happy.
> 
> The temperature on the classic can be extremely variable as Has Bean are generally a medium roast so you need to be closer to 94-95c rather than anything lower, this can be tricky on the classic. There are posts on this in the classic section on how best to do this.


The freezing point is mute now I feel as I have already frozen them, but am I probably correct in thinking that because my shot times are too quick 16-18sec my grind needs to be finer? I am doing the grind fine tamp light method which seems to be the preferred method these days, would a heavier tamp make much difference to taste? Or is more to do with the surface area that the water has to act on when ground finer.

P.S Gary I am not knocking your beans, I was just so shocked in the taste difference between the Phil Ter bag and this, it is the reason I bought the sample pack after all, to try different beans and flavours. My assumption is that if I use fresh beans and get one type dialled in when I start a new bean I can use my old settings as a starting point then fine dial in which is what I did today. Is this too nieve?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Grind fine , tamp light works , if the grinder can cope with it .....does your sage have shimms in it ?

Sourness is probably due to the quickness of shot and or too low a temp ....


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> The freezing point is mute now I feel as I have already frozen them


You said you wanted to learn, I was trying to help, I do however realise in this case it's too late. Good luck.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> You said you wanted to learn, I was trying to help, I do however realise in this case it's too late. Good luck.


No No mate fully appreciate any comments and most people here are only too willing to impart their knowledge to help.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Grind fine , tamp light works , if the grinder can cope with it .....does your sage have shimms in it ?
> 
> Sourness is probably due to the quickness of shot and or too low a temp ....


I took the full burrs out as it actually sounds like metal on metal if I go lower than 13 with no beans in. I have emailed Sage to ask about this. I don't want to risk dropping the setting lower incase I trash the burrs and ruin my warranty.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> I took the full burrs out as it actually sounds like metal on metal if I go lower than 13 with no beans in. I have emailed Sage to ask about this. I don't want to risk dropping the setting lower incase I trash the burrs and ruin my warranty.


I can't identify if it has shimmy in or not ( me no expert )

Glenn might be able to tell

Shimms make it go finer....


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> No No mate fully appreciate any comments and most people here are only too willing to impart their knowledge to help.


Cool mate.

If you are not in the 26-34 second zone for your shot then you need to go finer. It makes a massive difference. It's quite normal to adjust grind between beans.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> I can't identify if it has shimmy in or not ( me no expert )
> 
> Glenn might be able to tell
> 
> Shimms make it go finer....


Because it's the PRO model I believe that it doesn't have shims, and as I still have 12 more levels left I don't think it is a shim issue, I think it's more that I am a pussy and too scared to drop it down in case I damage the burrs


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Agree with Spence. As long as beans are used within 4 weeks then they should be fine. I only freeze if I have a stock pile and will not get through them.

Medium to light beans do work better with a lighter temp, darker with a lower.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> Because it's the PRO model I believe that it doesn't have shims, and as I still have 12 more levels left I don't think it is a shim issue, I think it's more that I am a pussy and too scared to drop it down in case I damage the burrs


Can you move the burrs whilst the grinder is on (sorry not familiar with that grinder)? If so then switch it on and adjust the grind down. When the burrs are touching it will probably sound like someone sharpening a knife on a stone. At this point just back it off and that's you zero point. If you are no comfortable doing this then with the grinder off, turn the adjustment until it doesn't turn any more, this point is beyond the zero point so don't turn it on. Back it off a fair way but it will give you more confidence of where you zero point is.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> Can you move the burrs whilst the grinder is on (sorry not familiar with that grinder)? If so then switch it on and adjust the grind down. When the burrs are touching it will probably sound like someone sharpening a knife on a stone. At this point just back it off and that's you zero point. If you are no comfortable doing this then with the grinder off, turn the adjustment until it doesn't turn any more, this point is beyond the zero point so don't turn it on. Back it off a fair way but it will give you more confidence of where you zero point is.


That's what I did when it sounded like metal on metal but still with 12 levels to go on the dial, I am assuming that the grinder may be faulty.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Maybe post up in the grinder section as well asking for info on how to dial this model in. there are quite a few on here with them I think. May not know to get involved if it remains under this thread title. It sounds like this is at least part of the problem.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Video of the burrs almost touching?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I have used said grinder, IGNORE metal on metal sound, Baratzas are the same. With beans between the burrs it will be fine. DONT run grinder without beans for extended periods (couple of seconds) at those settings.

The other method of increasing extraction is to run more water through . say 18g - > 40g+ these can taste good even


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Fair point Gary

do we even know what the brew ratio is at the moment ....

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?375-Weighing-Espresso-(Brew-Ratios)


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## Beanaholic (Feb 2, 2015)

Could you not try increasing the dosage, say to 20 grams if your basket will take it?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Grinding finer is the obvious thing to try first


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I have used said grinder, IGNORE metal on metal sound, Baratzas are the same. With beans between the burrs it will be fine. DONT run grinder without beans for extended periods (couple of seconds) at those settings.
> 
> The other method of increasing extraction is to run more water through . say 18g - > 40g+ these can taste good even
> 
> Totally with gary here, it is a similar set up to an mc2 and as such when turning it on without beans in the grinder it will sound horrendous, dial it finer beans in and go, you wont damage the burrs, howver these grinders do struggle at super fine grinds with lighter beans due to being underpowered.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Just tamp harder surely?


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Agree with Spence. As long as beans are used within 4 weeks then they should be fine. I only freeze if I have a stock pile and will not get through them.
> 
> Medium to light beans do work better with a lighter temp, darker with a lower.


Hmm you learn something new everyday. I always froze my beans (no pun intended) once opened with the vague idea that would be less moisture ruining the taste. However, if it takes 4 weeks for this to happen I will give it a try (I go through about 500g of beans in around 10 days).


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> I have used said grinder, IGNORE metal on metal sound, Baratzas are the same. With beans between the burrs it will be fine. DONT run grinder without beans for extended periods (couple of seconds) at those settings.
> 
> The other method of increasing extraction is to run more water through . say 18g - > 40g+ these can taste good even
> 
> ...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Tamping harder will (crudely) increase contact time, most likely it will introduce another variable , i.e. potential for inconsistency & if you're already tamping sufficiently enough then extraction yield will probably decrease because you don't have pre infusion capability on your machine.

Increasing the dose a touch might increase resistance enough to get a reasonable shot time , but bare in mind you'll need even more output to get a balanced shot. Say 19.5g - > 45+. Headspace could be a worry.

Everything point to grinding finer


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Tamping harder will (crudely) increase contact time, most likely it will introduce another variable , i.e. potential for inconsistency & if you're already tamping sufficiently enough then extraction yield will probably decrease because you don't have pre infusion capability on your machine.
> 
> Increasing the dose a touch might increase resistance enough to get a reasonable shot time , but bare in mind you'll need even more output to get a balanced shot. Say 19.5g - > 45+. Headspace could be a worry.
> 
> Everything point to grinding finer


Agree , tamping harder will slow the shot down ( increase contact time ) , probably wont help increase tds ( can screw up distribution if not consistent ) and as a result Extraction yield and as a result give a balanced cup ..


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Agree , tamping harder will slow the shot down ( increase contact time ) , probably wont help increase tds ( can screw up distribution if not consistent ) and as a result Extraction yield and as a result give a balanced cup ..


I'm with the same school of thought of late.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Agree , tamping harder will slow the shot down ( increase contact time ) , probably wont help increase tds ( can screw up distribution if not consistent ) and as a result Extraction yield and as a result give a balanced cup ..


My take on tamping harder is that it increases the overall shot time as the water can't penetrate the surface of the puck so the increased contact time is only with the very top of the puck. You get a large pressure build up and when the water finally forces its way through the surface it does so via the easiest path which is usually in a very uneven fashion resulting in poor extraction/channelling. Lighter tamp allows the water to saturate the puck evenly and hence you get an even flow through the puck and a better overall extraction.

I could be talking nonsense though.... (I usually am....)


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

In general should a puck once knocked out from pf, be fairly dry and in one piece? I've had some soggier looking ones plus more recently they seem quite dry and a fair amount is still left in the pf basket after I've tried knocking it out a couple of times. Didn't used to get that at all when first working with current beans (Stewartscoffees Swiss Espresso).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> My take on tamping harder is that it increases the overall shot time as the water can't penetrate the surface of the puck so the increased contact time is only with the very top of the puck. You get a large pressure build up and when the water finally forces its way through the surface it does so via the easiest path which is usually in a very uneven fashion resulting in poor extraction/channelling. Lighter tamp allows the water to saturate the puck evenly and hence you get an even flow through the puck and a better overall extraction.
> 
> I could be talking nonsense though.... (I usually am....)


That would correlate with a load of experimenting i did with Tamp pressure , Ek, Vesuvius and refraction results ....

Time was going up , tds wasn't, taste was staying the same ( as was EY )


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Went with the longer extraction Gary, 18g in 45g out and much better, should I expect similar results with the other beans in the starter pack GARY?

Costa Rica Finca Portrero

Guatemala El Libano

Ethiopian Yirgacheffe Cheleba

Thanks


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

mremanxx said:


> Went with the longer extraction Gary, 18g in 45g out and much better, should I expect similar results with the other beans in the starter pack GARY?
> 
> Costa Rica Finca Portrero
> 
> ...


Each one will require a different grind setting due to variance in how easy they give up their solids. Happy experimenting ; )


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Each one will require a different grind setting due to variance in how easy they give up their solids. Happy experimenting ; )










 Knew you were going to say something along those lines.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Any tips, I managed to grind these beans finer, now on level 7 on the Sage, coffee is like talc but still pouring really fast, tamping at 5kg, 45g shot in 20 sec. Not so sour now but not that nice a coffee to be honest. I don't believe that I would need to go any finer surely? This would be twice as fine as anu other bean I have tried, even Supermarket. Could I just be unlucky and have a bad bean?

ratio is 1:3


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## Kman10 (Sep 3, 2014)

What dose you putting in?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

15g in 45g out to help with sour taste and because it is pouring so fast


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> 15g in 45g out to help with sour taste and because it is pouring so fast


Why did you change from the 18 g dose you were using previously ....


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

not enough head space in basket boots, tried the triple basket but felt it was too fast also, I thought it was because of the extra surface area


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> Any tips, I managed to grind these beans finer, now on level 7 on the Sage, coffee is like talc but still pouring really fast, tamping at 5kg, 45g shot in 20 sec. Not so sour now but not that nice a coffee to be honest. I don't believe that I would need to go any finer surely? This would be twice as fine as anu other bean I have tried, even Supermarket. Could I just be unlucky and have a bad bean?
> 
> ratio is 1:3


If you can't/won't go finer then pull a heavier shot, 1:3.5 or 1:4...the espresso will get weaker but your extraction may rise & get you out of the rut.

Different beans = different grind. There's no 'one size fits all' setting for espresso.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So 15 into 45 is taking how long ....

Can you get to 16 g dose ?

Have we discovered if this grinder is shimmed and at it's finest setting


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

about 18-20 seconds.

grinder not shimmed.

I am going to try no 1 and see what happens.

could fit 16g but can't see it making a difference, maybe expecting too much. The lowest setting I have had to use so far is 13, this is why I amm surprised at having to go so low. I don't for a minute think the beans are stale but is sourness not an indicator of stale beans?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Get grinder shimmed ASAP it isn't going fine enough


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:


> If you can't/won't go finer then pull a heavier shot, 1:3.5 or 1:4...the espresso will get weaker but your extraction may rise & get you out of the rut.
> 
> Different beans = different grind. There's no 'one size fits all' setting for espresso.


I'm going to try a 1:4 later, sure I used to pull them when I first got the ek but they've fallen out of favour

OP, some beans you need to go mega fine, others mega coarse to keep your ratios in normal times. Go as fine as your grinder can


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> about 18-20 seconds.
> 
> grinder not shimmed.
> 
> ...


Beans wont be stale easy to blame the beans but ( presuming you are using them within a acceptable date from roast and you have stored then ok )

Sourness is a symptom go the shot under extracting = too fast a shot , grind not fine enough , channeling int the puck , too lower temp

Its the man and equipment not the beans ....

Anecdotally The sage grinder needs shimming to be able to deal with anything under dark medium roast.

Get it shimmed

Id the grind down finer , if you can , possibly go to 16 g

Aim for that ratio in a longer time

taste


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

The Pro model shouldn't need shimmed.

Just ground at no 1, it's finest, coffee crap, 14 sec shot

16g in 32 out.

Just tried the other costa rican bean, 1st shot at no 6 16g in 31 out 22 sec, still slightly sour but can go finer. Maybe I don't like beans from costa rica


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Its not grinding fine enough so its needs something. or your shots are channeling so bad ..


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

A grinder should be able to choke a machine even with a light roasts. Pro or no pro yours doesn't seem able to do that

I can take a light filter roast with my hand grinder and make Turkish grind that chokes a machine with and without pre infusion.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Its not grinding fine enough so its needs something. or your shots are channeling so bad ..


Feck knows mate, used almost the whole 250g trying to get a decent shot and failed, will see how I get on with the other bean.

Is channeling not a symptom of over tamping/not enough head space?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mainly symptom of uneven distribution in the pf . water finds path of least resistance + where there is less coffee. Do you have a naked pf.....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I still think it the grinder then channelling . hard to tell without a clip


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

As a matter of interest, I assume you can easily measure the burr clearance by using feeler gauges between the top and lower burrs? If so what clearance would be deemed to be finest. This would need to be the same for all grinder as clearance is necessary without causing damage.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Mainly symptom of uneven distribution in the pf . water finds path of least resistance + where there is less coffee. Do you have a naked pf.....


Unfortunately not.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If your grinder can't grind fine enough, you have to pull longer...or last resort, pull really short and see if you can creep in under the sourness (not ideal, but maybe lesser of the available evils).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Can't help with the specifics of your grinder. Sorry


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If its not grinding fine enough then would it pay off to get a better distribution and tamp firmer, not ideal but may help?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> If its not grinding fine enough then would it pay off to get a better distribution and tamp firmer, not ideal but may help?


An updose a little .


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Can't help with the specifics of your grinder. Sorry


Not my grinder per say. Simple mechanics, all moving parts need clearance to you will find that your grinder may have say 0.002", mine might have 0.005". Obviously the stronger the motor the tighter the burrs can be.

One maybe for coffeechap to answer?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

With most grinders , the process to calibrate would be you would shot the burrs back by hand til they touch

then back of x degrees , this is your zero point


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> With most grinder , the process to calibrate would be you would shot the burrs back by hand til they touch
> 
> then back of x degrees , this is your zero point


Not precise enough for me mate, technician here x degrees??? I work on values.

Seriously though how do you know your burrs are touching? I cannot turn mine by hand as I am trying to turn the motor and don't want to force it in case I damage something internal or break the spindle shaft. You couldn't risk running the machine if the burrs are touching either as they would get wrecked. Is it a case that people assume they are touching because they cannot turn the adjuster anymore and back off from there? This wouldn't be a touching point in my opinion as manufacturers would give a running clearance even at the minimum setting.

Might get the feeler gauges out at the weekend and see.

Am I correct in assuming coffeechap does this thing, just get that impression from reading some of his posts?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You know the burrs are touching when you can hear them chirping


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> Not precise enough for me mate, technician here x degrees??? I work on values.
> 
> This wouldn't be a touching point in my opinion as manufacturers would give a running clearance even at the minimum setting.
> 
> Might get the feeler gauges out at the weekend and see.


you're quoting numbers on a display, somewhat arbitrary, no value there, there's no SI unit for grinder settings, "6" isn't meaningful to anyone other than you.

Your opinion on zeroing a grinder is wrong, most grinders can be set until burrs chirp, this is typically how you reference zero. If you can fit a feeler gauge between the burrs you have a burr gap & probably aren't at zero.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

So burr "chirp" is metal on metal?? Dealt with many precise pieces of machinery in 30 years in the mechanical trade.the one common factor is precise and metal on metal don't go.

Not doubting anyones knowledge so no offence it is just counter intuative to me that's all.

Will check it out and may shim to see what happens.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A little metal on metal (light rub) won't do any harm for short periods...burrs locking & binding, yes, that will...but that's not something you'd do.

At the moment you seem to be underextracting, you need to go finer, or push more water through the puck to get in the normal range.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Didn't Sage give away free shimming kits when hey released these. I think shimming and going finer is the way forward for you, I've not used the grinder so can't help you out.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Doing my nut in to be honest, I actually noticed that my Sage has an adjustable upper burr to allow finer or courser grinding, I dropped this down a couple of notches to grind finer but to be honest it is grinding so slow that it is heating the ground coffee, pulling a little slower but poor.

Opened the Ethiopian Yirgacheffe Cheleba ground at a courser setting to try and got 16g in 31 out 37 secs and tasted much better, not bad for a start.

The beans don't look much darker than the Costa Rican ones too.

Lessons learnt...... My grinder don't like lighter roasts. My grinder has limitations which to be honest for the price is understandable.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions guys.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Being honest at that price ( £200 ) your grinder shouldn't have limitations.. It should be able to go fine enough for lighter roasts. It s not up to being an espresso grinder if it can't. Mc2 etc is the same price bracket will go fine enough, it won't have the functionality of the sage but it will grind fine. As I've said previously my hand grinder can make a decent espresso for light roasts also. The sage hardly lives up to its name of PRO If it can't handle a lighter roast ..PRO what ? Contact sage, ask if they provide shims or not for this model and pass on your experience with this grinder.

Personally if it can't go fine enough ( as this is based on the info you have given us ) then I'd be sending it back as not fit for purpose..all the tech for dose and time are kinda pointless if its basic function ( grinding for epresso ) is limiting your choice of coffee .


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

^^^^Pretty good advice^^^^. Completely agree, for that price you should be getting a capable grinder.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I did contact them for advice but not much use, they just suggested that I send it back to John Lewis. Shims not necessary as you adjust the top burr by twisting it finer, neat actually. I am not sure if the issue is grinding power, to go really fine now it slows down a lot and the grinds are warm, is this not bad? I stopped trying because of this and opened the Ethiopian which is no problem.

I actually like the form of this grinder, it's functions are really well thought out but am thinking about returning it for a refund and might get a mignon 2


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It would be a shame to be limiting your choice of coffee due to equipment issues.

£200 will get you a decent second-hand grinder capable of choking your machine with any coffee.

Do you have any of the troublesome coffee left?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I have the second bag Gary I have only used a little from it. It was slightly better but still needed to go really fine in my set up.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Finally got to the bottom of this bloody problem. I watched a couple of videos about grinder calibration and was trying the same thing on the Sage. Doesn't work the same as a Rancillo.

Got a fine grind at a good grinder speed and can now pull a variety of shots between 25 and 40 seconds depending on load and tamp with plenty a adjustment left.

The Costa Rican beans have made the best flat whites from any beans so far, well chuffed.


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## Jeltz (Feb 12, 2014)

Having just bought this machine I can confirm that it doesn't need shims, it has an adjustable upper burr numbered adjustments from 1 finest to 12 coarsest. It seems as though it adjusts the upper and lower end if the grind scale and is additional to the dial on the side which has 60 settings.

I presumed it would need adjusting out of the box to make it finer so moved it from 6 to 3 but had to adjust it back (put it to 5) as it simply choked up my gaggia! I need some more dialling in time to get the balance of the right grind time to dose for the grind as its not quite there yet but it seems a capable machine and I did have a lovely latte earlier.

I have been trying it out with some supermarket beans, which seem oily but I have some decent beans on order.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jeltz said:


> Having just bought this machine I can confirm that it doesn't need shims, it has an adjustable upper burr numbered adjustments from 1 finest to 12 coarsest. It seems as though it adjusts the upper and lower end if the grind scale and is additional to the dial on the side which has 60 settings.
> 
> I presumed it would need adjusting out of the box to make it finer so moved it from 6 to 3 but had to adjust it back (put it to 5) as it simply choked up my gaggia! I need some more dialling in time to get the balance of the right grind time to dose for the grind as its not quite there yet but it seems a capable machine and I did have a lovely latte earlier.
> 
> I have been trying it out with some supermarket beans, which seem oily but I have some decent beans on order.


try putting some decent beans though it - of any colour ( plus any lighter roasts will require finder grind ) then let us know how it performs

cheers Martin


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## Jeltz (Feb 12, 2014)

I'll report back in a week or so. The beans I have on order are Rave's Italian Job, which is a medium roast and my go to bean.

There's masses of room for dialling it finer than it is at the moment its just on the coarse side of the mid way point in the espresso range of settings plus there are several burr adjustments too.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Jeltz said:


> I'll report back in a week or so. The beans I have on order are Rave's Italian Job, which is a medium roast and my go to bean.
> 
> There's masses of room for dialling it finer than it is at the moment its just on the coarse side of the mid way point in the espresso range of settings plus there are several burr adjustments too.


Raves work not problem out the box mate, my first bean, the Costa Rican ones needed much much finer, but as you are aware by adjusting the upper burr you reduce the grind size, I was way down at no 5 and couldn't get a fine grind and the grinder was struggling. Not got upper burr at 3 and grinding at no 20, brill, great grind and now great grind speed, no more warm grinds.

What I am impressed with is the single dosing, I get almost exactly the same out as in on a single load (0.1 - 0.2g difference, can't complain) and it's quiet and a neat size.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> decent beans...lighter roasts


Snob


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Snob


Wasn't really the point i was trying to make ...ive changed it to be slightly less snobby.....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Wasn't really the point i was trying to make ...ive changed it to be slightly less snobby.....


you my friend are a northern monkey, incapable of true snobbery, just fake snobbery


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## Jeltz (Feb 12, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Wasn't really the point i was trying to make ...ive changed it to be slightly less snobby.....


I got what you were saying


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## Jeltz (Feb 12, 2014)

FWIW The Rave beans need a coarser grind than the supermarket ones! I guess to put it properly through its paces I need something else.


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