# Baby steps into the world of home pulled espresso!



## Katfud (Sep 27, 2020)

Hi all, given I'll be working from home for the immediate (and probably lingering) future, I've finally been given the justification I've always craved from a home espresso machine!

I'm looking for something semi automatic, I have some (admittedly dated) experience operating commercial coffee machines in my youth, and being fussy was looking forward to fiddling with settings with the hope of creating the perfect espresso (though I mostly drink Americano's).

Top of the reviews (In my rough <£600 price range) seems to be the Sage Barista Express. Though my uninformed preference would be for a separate grinder/machine.

The alternative I'm considering would be the Rancilio Silvia, which would allow me to purchase a separate grinder though I worry about the lack of a pressure gauge/PID.

Can anyone offer some insight as I make my baby steps into the world of home brewed espresso? Ultimately I'm most concerned about the quality of the output and longevity of the 'investment'.


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

Good insight to what you're looking at. having been down that path myself, I'll ask a couple of questions as the answer may alter the recommendations.

Is there any reasonable chance that having spent c£600, you might in a year or so time have a bit more budget and if so any thoughts on how much (I'm thinking that a saving of £3 per coffee, 5x a week for five months is £300) ? I ask this, as if there is then it may make people recommend the stand-alone grinder option as it would reduce the overall spend if you did suffer upgraditus (the irresistible urge to get a better machine despite the original purchase having met all of the original criteria).

Would you definitely want brand new, or would second-hand be an option? You don't have access right now but 5 or more posts means you can access the for sake section where there might be a higher spec machine for same /less money.

Good luck on the journey, I suspect the purchase will be just the first step.

Andy


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

For my money, the Sylvia would be the way to go. A PID and pressure gauge can be added, and it's a machine that will still be in great condition in a decade, not something that's likely to be said about the Sage machine. I'm not saying the Sage is a bad machine, it's not, it's very much on a par with many other options. It just isn't as well built as the Sylvia and parts are harder to get.


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## Katfud (Sep 27, 2020)

Thanks very much for the rapid responses!

In answer the first question, the £600 budget is self imposed so I don't go too over the top before I know I'll be satisfied with the quality of my home pulled espresso. I've seen machines which tilt over into artwork and I fear I'd find it all too easy to spend a fortune.

That said, my budget is flexible but like all things I expect incremental improvements to be increasingly costly, so I'd only increase my budget if people think I'd realise a tangible improvement for a slight increase in outlay. I don't think I'm likely to replace whatever i buy in the first few years so don't expect that to make to much of a difference to my eventual choice.

With regard to second hand options, I live in the Channel Islands so the second hand market is a little small and shipping from the UK is likely to be prohibitively expensive. Plus I have no technical know how so would be worried about buying a lemon. (I'll think of three more questions though, so I can access that area of the site  )

Hopefully that gives a little more flavour?

Allicat, thanks for the tip, do you know if it would be easy or expensive to fit a PID and pressure gauge? I'm more of a paper pusher than mechanic but am willing to try my hand at DIY.


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Hrm, I'm not a Sylvia owner, so I'm not in a position to comment on how hard it is. However, there's a good market for parts and mods for the Sylvia, and guides are plentiful.

If you're considering longevity, then a separate grinder is a must, and it needs to be an espresso grinder. Budget at least £350 for that, which gets you a Eureka Mignon. The other great choice is a Niche Zero at around £500.

Onto machines. The Sylvia and the Gaggia Classic are both good choices for a starter machine. They have similar performance, and both will last decades with plentiful spares and mods available. The Sylvia has more steam power and a better wand, but the bigger boiler takes a little longer to warm up and cool down. And, to be honest, as a Gaggia owner, the Sylvia does look nicer. You pays your money and pick between them.

Now for the second hand question. For both the Classic, and the Sylvia, second hand is a very viable choice. Especially for older ones. Until they started getting power electronics in the last few years (from EU power saving regulations), both machines were extremely simple inside. A power switch, a brew switch that turns the pump on, and a switch that selects between the brew and steam thermostats to control the boiler heater. It's actually amazing how little technology is needed to make espresso.


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## Katfud (Sep 27, 2020)

Thanks, so it sounds like the grinder will cost as much as the espresso machine (if I buy a silvia) and shouldn't be skimped on. Does it really make that much difference to the espresso? I appreciated the need for a burr grinder, but hadn't realised it would cost £350, are cheaper options not worth considering?

When I get my 5 posts done, I'll be able to take a look at second hand options, having read a little around the site, it might be better to look for a second hand Fracino Cherub and grinder for my money.

Do you think second hand machines are a big risk? I'm worried they'll have a limited lifespan?


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Katfud said:


> Thanks, so it sounds like the grinder will cost as much as the espresso machine (if I buy a silvia) and shouldn't be skimped on. Does it really make that much difference to the espresso? I appreciated the need for a burr grinder, but hadn't realised it would cost £350, are cheaper options not worth considering?
> 
> When I get my 5 posts done, I'll be able to take a look at second hand options, having read a little around the site, it might be better to look for a second hand Fracino Cherub and grinder for my money.
> 
> Do you think second hand machines are a big risk? I'm worried they'll have a limited lifespan?


 Does a good grinder make a big difference to Espresso? YES. This is why people spend thousands on machines like the Mythos. However, once you get past the base level for a quality espresso grinder, you do pay a lot for small improvements. The Mignon from Eureka is a highly recommended starting point. There are a few grinders out there that cost less and can do espresso, but their design is one that will make you annoyed once you hit its limitations. An example of such a lesser grinder is the Iberital MC2, also sold as the Fracino Piccino I believe. It will certainly do espresso, but it's hardly worth telling someone to spend £150 on a grinder that they'll sell a year down the line for the £350+ grinder they should have bought in the beginning. The peak of price/performance for espresso grinders hits in the £500-1000 price bracket, with the Niche at the low end and many many options nearer (and past) the thousand pound mark.

Ignore the sub £100 burr grinders entirely. They can do most brew methods, but the requirements for espresso are just too much for them.

On second hand machines, it depends on which second hand machine. There are 3 machines that are definitely the ones to go with used. Rancillio Sylvia, Gaggia Classic/Baby and La Pavoni lever machines. All 3 of these have vibrant communities, plentiful spares and simple, straightforward designs that are easy to service and repair even if they're broken when you get it. There are others, and if you see a possible bargain, ask around here, someone will have (or had) one and can tell you all about it.

In short, a solidly built machine of good quality will be worth buying used, even if it's broken when you get it, so long as the price you pay reflects the condition it's in.


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## Katfud (Sep 27, 2020)

Thanks, my heart says go all out and get a Fracino Cherub with quality grinder but my wife and bank balance are less easily swayed.

For now in think I'll go with the Rancilio Silvia + good grinder and upgrade the Silvia in the future if all goes well.

I appreciate this will probably cost more in the long run, but at least if I get a grinder I can keep, the cost will be spread.

Right, off to research grinders and installing pressure gauges into a silvia!

If anyone had any other pearls of wisdom for an enthusiastic amateur, they'd be gratefully received.


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

Does anyone have experience with Lelit, e.g. the Lelit Victoria with 58mm Portafilter?

I'm trying to get on order confirmed for one now, and thing it fits my requirements, but I don't see them recommended as much as the Silvia and Gaggia. I bit the bullet and ordered the Niche Zero, eta December, so have some time to get the right machine of my order isn't accepted.


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Lelit machines look great. There are some that do a horrible preinfusion attempt, but you can turn that off. I was shown one recently, it's a very nice machine.


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## Katfud (Sep 27, 2020)

Thanks, I actually think my dream machine is a lelit mara x.

Might need to save those pennies for a while though!


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

Katfud said:


> Thanks, I actually think my dream machine is a lelit mara x.
> 
> Might need to save those pennies for a while though!


 @KatfudHaha me too, although I like the look of the White Gaggia and Niche Grinder as a stylish combo, take a look at this post to see someone's setup:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/54979-thoughts-on-gaggia-classic-pro-in-white-would-it-look-good-with-niche-zero-anyone-have-them/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=781055&embedComment=781055&embedDo=findComment#comment-781055

I can always upgrade to a Mara X in the future, I need to have some coffee dreams and aspirations!


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## Katfud (Sep 27, 2020)

@allyburns

I've now been introduced into the world of coffee porn, my life (and wallet) will never be the same!

There are some lovely setups here. The only trouble is how shabby it will make my kitchen look by contrast!


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## howza123 (Oct 30, 2020)

As a new forum member, this thread basically covered a majority of my initial questions. Such detailed responses!


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