# Is the ACS Minima dual boiler still made.



## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

Guess heading says it all. Considering a new machine presently very little available

I thought the ACS Minima looks nice but confess i can't work out if its still a current model.

👍


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Apart from some recent niggling issues it is a very solid machine. Very few come closer at this price range sporting dual stainless boilers. And with the option of adding the Lelit or Rocket paddle, it makes it very difficult not to like it.

Best option would be to PM Paolo Cortese who responses quickly.

Good luck in your search

PS If you do not mind, what set up do you have at the moment?

EDIT: I have just seen the signature and remembered the "threw it in the bin" recent story.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

John Yossarian said:


> Apart from some recent niggling issues it is a very solid machine. Very few come closer at this price range sporting dual stainless boilers. And with the option of adding the Lelit or Rocket paddle, it makes it very difficult not to like it.
> 
> Best option would be to PM Paolo Cortese who responses quickly.
> 
> ...


 Dropped Paolo a PM see if he has any stock etc thank you never associated the Vesuvius and Minima brand wise. Indeed RIP La Spaziale confess a Sage DTP is not doing much for me 😁


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Border_all said:


> Dropped Paolo a PM see if he has any stock etc thank you never associated the Vesuvius and Minima brand wise. Indeed RIP La Spaziale confess a Sage DTP is not doing much for me


The Minima or the MaraX seem great choices at the moment. I do like the no frills approach of the Minima, specially the half E61 group which is solenoid operated. No lubrication!


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The Minima or the MaraX seem great choices at the moment. I do like the no frills approach of the Minima, specially the half E61 group which is solenoid operated. No lubrication!


 Thank you i have also looked at the MaraX in fact i have dropped Bella an email as well last night they must i guess only be available weekdays unsure if they will reopen on Monday with other retailers 👍


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

I have also read @DavecUK on both machines 👍


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Border_all said:


> I have also read @DavecUK on both machines 👍


 It's the best way, you get all the information you need to make the best choice for you.....both are good choices.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Border_all said:


> Dropped Paolo a PM see if he has any stock etc thank you never associated the Vesuvius and Minima brand wise. Indeed RIP La Spaziale confess a Sage DTP is not doing much for me 😁


 Going from La Spaziale to Sage DTP should feel as downgrading.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> It's the best way, you get all the information you need to make the best choice for you.....both are good choices.


 For certain you got the RO machines spot on every reason too trust your reviews 😁

Silly i know but the Minima has a steam wand on the right that would be nice. Also i can be sure no scale will build up


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

John Yossarian said:


> Going from La Spaziale to Sage DTP should feel as downgrading.


 I think my taste buds have no idea what i have done. The Sage will have to go as well i am afraid 😂😂😂


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

John Yossarian said:


> Apart from some recent niggling issues it is a very solid machine. Very few come closer at this price range sporting dual stainless boilers. And with the option of adding the Lelit or Rocket paddle, it makes it very difficult not to like it.
> 
> Best option would be to PM Paolo Cortese who responses quickly.
> 
> ...


 Wow Paolo is fast i have heard back and he will kindly check stock on Monday for me. Thanks again for the tip👍


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Border_all said:


> For certain you got the RO machines spot on every reason too trust your reviews 😁
> 
> Silly i know but the Minima has a steam wand on the right that would be nice. Also i can be sure no scale will build up


 Well there's a few on here don't trust em, because I'm in the pocket of so many different companies.... I loose track of all the kickbacks I am getting, I must be a very rich man trouble is I don't know where they put all the money, but I'm sure a few people will be able to tell me 

I spent approximately 100+ hours with each machine perhaps more. ....just keep in mind whichever machine you choose, you will be poorer and I will be richer in the knowledge that you have a great machine whatever you choose and wherever you buy it.

P.S. 100 hours+ work over many many months....


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Well there's a few on here don't trust em, because I'm in the pocket of so many different companies.... I loose track of all the kickbacks I am getting, I must be a very rich man trouble is I don't know where they put all the money, but I'm sure a few people will be able to tell me
> 
> I spent approximately 100+ hours with each machine perhaps more. ....just keep in mind whichever machine you choose, you will be poorer and I will be richer in the knowledge that you have a great machine whatever you choose and wherever you buy it.


 I can certainly live with that👍 If i am fortunate i am going with the ACS that right handed steam wand wins the day😁


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

he had the white minima if you fancy one. 100Euros extra tho.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Border_all said:


> Wow Paolo is fast i have heard back and he will kindly check stock on Monday for me. Thanks again for the tip👍


 I am glad you can move forward quickly.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Well there's a few on here don't trust em, because I'm in the pocket of so many different companies.... I loose track of all the kickbacks I am getting, I must be a very rich man trouble is I don't know where they put all the money, but I'm sure a few people will be able to tell me
> 
> I spent approximately 100+ hours with each machine perhaps more. ....just keep in mind whichever machine you choose, you will be poorer and I will be richer in the knowledge that you have a great machine whatever you choose and wherever you buy it.
> 
> P.S. 100 hours+ work over many many months....


 I knew it 😀.

Seriously though, I have the Vesuvius based on your advice and I have been very happy with it. It is an excellent machine.

Cheers,

Jordan


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Well there's a few on here don't trust em, because I'm in the pocket of so many different companies.... I loose track of all the kickbacks I am getting, I must be a very rich man trouble is I don't know where they put all the money, but I'm sure a few people will be able to tell me
> 
> I spent approximately 100+ hours with each machine perhaps more. ....just keep in mind whichever machine you choose, you will be poorer and I will be richer in the knowledge that you have a great machine whatever you choose and wherever you buy it.
> 
> P.S. 100 hours+ work over many many months....


 Gosh, 100 hours + with the Minima and yet failed to note the absence of the slow pressure ramp up of an e61 , the non replaceable heater elements or the plugged holes in the boilers which are a leak risk. Guess many hours were needed to explain the wonkily drilled hole in group head. All credit to ACS marketing for using components that others would have scrapped.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

John Yossarian said:


> I knew it 😀.
> 
> Seriously though, I have the Vesuvius based on your advice and I have been very happy with it. It is an excellent machine.
> 
> ...


 And I'm richer as a result...well spiritually if not actually.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

Nikko said:


> Gosh, 100 hours + with the Minima and yet failed to note the absence of the slow pressure ramp up of an e61 , the non replaceable heater elements or the plugged holes in the boilers which are a leak risk. Guess many hours were needed to explain the wonkily drilled hole in group head. All credit to ACS marketing for using components that others would have scrapped.


 Well you are the life and soul of a party I have worked in engineering in the past and seen many manufacturers for example Ford reject components that still got moved on to the spares side of a business. The difference in tolerance was often very minor but often reflected in the price

Some can not afford the best, example i run a Kia not a Rolls Royce but i still enjoy it

Can i ask if you have a link to reviews you have wrote please I would enjoy reading them 👍


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Nikko said:


> Gosh, 100 hours + with the Minima and yet failed to note the absence of the slow pressure ramp up of an e61 , the non replaceable heater elements or the plugged holes in the boilers which are a leak risk. Guess many hours were needed to explain the wonkily drilled hole in group head. All credit to ACS marketing for using components that others would have scrapped.


 Genuine question Nikko, what machines do you actually like?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

jaffro said:


> Genuine question Nikko, what machines do you actually like?


 Anything I have not reviewed/tested or helped design....which limits him a little in the UK domestic market. 

When he actually gets a job, moves out from home and can afford a machine/grinder, I am sure he will post some photos. Meanwhile he is probably happy with using this as it doesn't scale up, is noiseless, easy to maintain and largely fault free. A side benefit is it closely matches his skill set and personality.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

jaffro said:


> Genuine question Nikko, what machines do you actually like?


 Probably none. Or one that allows complete control over pressure ramp up. In all likelihood though probably doesn't own one, I don't see how anybody could bring themselves to buy any machine when they have such concerns.

Their reasoning might be as follows:

All machines with boilers have holes in them that are plugged and so all have leak risks (thermostats, pressure gauges, temp and fill probes, joints for steam valves and hot water wands).

Either heating elements are replaceable in which case there's yet another leak risk or you need to replace the whole boiler, which is marginally more expensive and who knows if you're going to be able to find one that fits the machine in 20, 30, 40 or 50 years time.

And who knows if the pressure ramp up of any given machine is going to be too quick or too slow for the coffee you're using, regardless of group head style.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Nikko said:


> Gosh, 100 hours + with the Minima and yet failed to note the absence of the slow pressure ramp up of an e61...


Pre-infusion valve of the e61 is at the bottom part of it. The minima doesn't have it. So no, in the case of the Minima, the E61 has no influence in the pressure ramp up, as far as I know.

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/e61-group-espresso-machine-detailed-interior-schematics-t397-20.html


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

jaffro said:


> Genuine question Nikko, what machines do you actually like?


 I am a big fan of the Minima. The review/ marketing is just outstanding.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Pre-infusion valve of the e61 is at the bottom part of it. The minima doesn't have it. So no, in the case of the Minima, the E61 has no influence in the pressure ramp up, as far as I know.
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/e61-group-espresso-machine-detailed-interior-schematics-t397-20.html


 You are right. You would have thought that the most independent and technical reviewer would have also spotted it.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Nikko said:


> You are right. You would have thought that the most independent and technical reviewer would have also spotted it.


So.... the pump pressure ramps up nicely, irrespective of the e61. So DavecUK is right in his review.... whereas your original remark is incorrect. Or am I missing something?


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> So.... the pump pressure ramps up nicely, irrespective of the e61. So DavecUK is right in his review.... or am I missing something?


 It does not ramp up nicely because there is nothing in it to slow the ramp up. The manometer slows the ramp up if one is fitted.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Nikko said:


> It does not ramp up nicely because there is nothing in it to slow the ramp up. The manometer slows the ramp up if one is fitted.


 It ramps up in the fact that a vibe pump takes a few seconds to shoot to the full pre-set value of the OPV, in my case 9bar. A rotary pump would be straight to 9 bar as soon as the switch is flicked. So I think it actually does ramp up nicely in comparison.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

What you observe with a manometer in place is not the same as when one is not fitted. I do not believe that the Minima comes with a manometer as standard. Do not forget that water is not compressible.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Nikko said:


> What you observe with a manometer in place is not the same as when one is not fitted. I do not believe that the Minima comes with a manometer as standard. Do not forget that water is not compressible.


The manometer is now fitted to the group thought. Shouldn't this be more accurate than those mounted earlier on in the circuit?


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Nikko said:


> I am a big fan of the Minima. The review/ marketing is just outstanding.


 Thanks?

I was hoping for a non-sarcastic answer really.

It's all well and good saying machines have design flaws, but it's not really helpful unless you can tell prospective buyers what they should be looking for instead.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Nikko said:


> What you observe with a manometer in place is not the same as when one is not fitted. I do not believe that the Minima comes with a manometer as standard. Do not forget that water is not compressible.


 Water is not compressible, however the simple workings of the pump (not the way the espresso machine works) means that the vibration pump has to generate the fluid flow to then pressurise the water due to the time required for the inductors to generate the AC current. A rotary pump works off centrufigal force (no electrical - kinetic/magnetic energy conversion required), hence the 9bar (or whatever the OPV is set to) is available instantly



MediumRoastSteam said:


> The manometer is now fitted to the group thought. Shouldn't this be more accurate than those mounted earlier on in the circuit?


 Yes as there's no transmission losses.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> When he actually gets a job, moves out from home


 you mean crawls from under the rock


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

jaffro said:


> Thanks?
> 
> I was hoping for a non-sarcastic answer really.
> 
> It's all well and good saying machines have design flaws, but it's not really helpful unless you can tell prospective buyers what they should be looking for instead.


 I was not pointing out design flaws. I was highlighting design decisions taken to keep costs down and with a negative impact on performance and serviceability which the reviewer, who claims to be independent and technical, did his best to hide.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Nikko said:


> I was not pointing out design flaws. I was highlighting design decisions taken to keep costs down and with a negative impact on performance and serviceability which the reviewer, who claims to be independent and technical, did his best to hide.


 Please (I beg you) point out design decisions taken to keep cost down, and then after that, please highlight how they are negatively impacting performance. Why do you feel the need to troll any thread related to either a) Dave or b) the Minima? Do us a favour and do one lmao


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Cooffe said:


> Water is not compressible, however the simple workings of the pump (not the way the espresso machine works) means that the vibration pump has to generate the fluid flow to then pressurise the water due to the time required for the inductors to generate the AC current. A rotary pump works off centrufigal force (no electrical - kinetic/magnetic energy conversion required), hence the 9bar (or whatever the OPV is set to) is available instantly
> 
> Yes as there's no transmission losses.


 Sorry but that is complete and utter nonsense. One example, a rotary pump in a coffee machine is not a centrifugal device but a positive displacement one with a pressure regulated bypass. None of what you have written bestows in any way slow pressure ramp up properties on a machine in which the mechanism which does this has not been installed.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Cooffe said:


> Please (I beg you) point out design decisions taken to keep cost down, and then after that, please highlight how they are negatively impacting performance. Why do you feel the need to troll any thread related to either a) Dave or b) the Minima? Do us a favour and do one lmao


 If you are happy to swallow everything you read in the reviews then continue to be happy.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Nikko said:


> Sorry but that is nonsense. One example, a rotary pump in a coffee machine is not a centrifugal device but a positive displacement one with a pressure regulated bypass. None of what you have written bestows in any way slow pressure ramp up properties on a machine in which the mechanism which does this has not been installed.


 Excuse the wiki source but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_vane_pump#:~:text=A rotary vane pump is,that rotates inside a cavity. "A ROTARY VANE PUMP IS A POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT PUMP"

A vibration pump requires inductors to be used, shifting a ferrous metal rod through a series of coils to generate an electro-magnetic field which is then rectified into an AC current from DC. This doesn't happen instantaneously and is often the source of an initial pressure lag. AC voltage will ramp up (note NOT A STEP INPUT) causing the pressure gradient to be positive until it reaches the set 9bar. We're not talking a 30s ramp, rather a 4-6s ramp up to full pressure.

I'm done on this thread. Peace


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Cooffe said:


> Excuse the wiki source but https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_vane_pump#:~:text=A rotary vane pump is,that rotates inside a cavity. "A ROTARY VANE PUMP IS A POSITIVE DISPLACEMENT PUMP"
> 
> A vibration pump requires inductors to be used, shifting a ferrous metal rod through a series of coils to generate an electro-magnetic field which is then rectified into an AC current from DC. This doesn't happen instantaneously and is often the source of an initial pressure lag. AC voltage will ramp up (note NOT A STEP INPUT) causing the pressure gradient to be positive until it reaches the set 9bar. We're not talking a 30s ramp, rather a 4-6s ramp up to full pressure.
> 
> I'm done on this thread. Peace


 Vibration pumps work at mains frequency. The time to build up to the mains frequency is measured in microseconds. Whatever ramp up time you see displayed on a pressure gauge will be very different when the gauge is not there. Perfect example of Heisenbergs principle.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Nikko said:


> Vibration pumps work at mains frequency. The time to build up to the mains frequency is measured in microseconds. Whatever ramp up time you see displayed on a pressure gauge will be very different when the gauge is not there. Perfect example of Heisenbergs principle.


 I have no knowledge or opinion about anything else in this thread, but it certainly is not an example of the uncertainty principle.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Nikko said:


> I was not pointing out design flaws. I was highlighting design decisions taken to keep costs down and with a negative impact on performance and serviceability which the reviewer, who claims to be independent and technical, did his best to hide.


 Speaking as somebody who actually knows, there's no negative impact on performance because the Minima takes about 2 seconds less to reach full pressure than a full e61. Until you've tested one side by side with a full e61 you aren't in a position to compare. I've used one next to an Expobar DB and also limited flow rate with the group paddle to extend pre-infusion that precious extra 2 seconds. Unsurprisingly it made no difference. I sometimes see a benefit from 15-20 second pre-infusion at 2-3 bar but rarely bother with anything less, though I've had a few coffees that were better just ramping up to full pressure quickly with a slow decline.

The review pointed out the cost saving aspect of choosing boilers with heating elements that couldn't be replaced. There was no attempt to hide the fact the boiler would need to be replaced if the long life incoloy heating element failed, in fact it was highlighted in the review alongside costing for replacement boilers.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> Speaking as somebody who actually knows, there's no negative impact on performance because the Minima takes about 2 seconds less to reach full pressure than a full e61. Until you've tested one side by side with a full e61 you aren't in a position to compare. I've used one next to an Expobar DB and also limited flow rate with the group paddle to extend pre-infusion that precious extra 2 seconds. Unsurprisingly it made no difference. I sometimes see a benefit from 15-20 second pre-infusion at 2-3 bar but rarely bother with anything less, though I've had a few coffees that were better just ramping up to full pressure quickly with a slow decline.
> 
> The review pointed out the cost saving aspect of choosing boilers with heating elements that couldn't be replaced. There was no attempt to hide the fact the boiler would need to be replaced if the long life incoloy heating element failed, in fact it was highlighted in the review alongside costing for replacement boilers.


 Rob, pointless feeding a troll. Knowledge is one thing but without experience it's useless, and he doesn't have real experience. If he did the manufacturers would have been asking him these last 15 years or so. Many of the things we enjoy today in prosumer kit, I had a hand in, either testing, specifying, correcting or suggesting over the last 17 years and I'm still doing it today. Not just machines but roasters people enjoy such as the Gene and the Dalian (not counting the countless failures that didn't get to market), or the work I did with Niche to try and help them make the best grinder they could for the customer.

*Nikko reminds me of all the people I have met in my life who carp from the sidelines at others who help people, do things, make things, get things done. There's no value add from him...at least I've not seen it (mind you he has been on ignore a long time).*


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Rob1 said:


> Speaking as somebody who actually knows, there's no negative impact on performance because the Minima takes about 2 seconds less to reach full pressure than a full e61. Until you've tested one side by side with a full e61 you aren't in a position to compare. I've used one next to an Expobar DB and also limited flow rate with the group paddle to extend pre-infusion that precious extra 2 seconds. Unsurprisingly it made no difference. I sometimes see a benefit from 15-20 second pre-infusion at 2-3 bar but rarely bother with anything less, though I've had a few coffees that were better just ramping up to full pressure quickly with a slow decline.
> 
> The review pointed out the cost saving aspect of choosing boilers with heating elements that couldn't be replaced. There was no attempt to hide the fact the boiler would need to be replaced if the long life incoloy heating element failed, in fact it was highlighted in the review alongside costing for replacement boilers.


 I am pleased that the Minima is working for you so there should be no need to ascribe it properties which it does not have. After all, you can also make excellent coffee with a Classic. As I already wrote, putting a Bourdon type gauge on a machine changes its behaviour so your comparisons do not reflect what is happening when the gauge is not installed.

Also pleased to hear that davecuk takes note of what I write and that his later reviews are more honest.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> *Nikko reminds me of all the people I have met in my life who carp from the sidelines at others who help people, do things, make things, get things done. There's no value add from him...at least I've not seen it (mind you he has been on ignore a long time).*


 Despite the fact that I am on your ignore list you are clearly taking note of what I say. And that can't be bad. May be, one day you'll get the hang of writing an unbiased review.


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Nikko said:


> Despite the fact that I am on your ignore list you are clearly taking note of what I say. And that can't be bad. May be, one day you'll get the hang of writing an unbiased review.


 I think you'll find yourself on most people's ignore list.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Nikko said:


> Vibration pumps work at mains frequency. The time to build up to the mains frequency is measured in microseconds. Whatever ramp up time you see displayed on a pressure gauge will be very different when the gauge is not there. Perfect example of Heisenbergs principle.


 Out of curiosity why the pressure will be different subject to whether you measure it (have a manometer installed) or not? The pressure should be established with the speed of sound as it is a mechanical intensive property of the system and as such would be the same in the whole system of connected pipes, manometer included.

If one measures the temperature of an ant with a body temperature thermometer, the temperature of the ant would be a function of the thermometer.

And last but not least, how is the Heisenberg's principle an adequate analogy here?

BTW a pressure gauge displays are in units for pressure, usually Bars or PSI and do not measure time.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

Well everyone.....

As a decisive chap 😁. I have purchased an ECM Mechanika V Slim from Bella Barista.

Reasons i had thought i could buy the ACS with a PayPal invoice though i guess many of you knew TransferWise was the more desirable payment method and as a hesitant person i could not bring myself to send funds in that way ie with no security lol

The Lellit MaraX stock is not yet in the U.K. and while expected i much prefer in stock silly but hay ho. 
So many thanks for all those who helped me but i feel better getting warranty and new stock, hopefully I'll feel this way for many years to come plus i guess it's backing 🇬🇧 and hopefully help keep them up and running

👍


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

You have a warranty with Acs, and transferwise is super safe. I'm lost to think why you haven't a warranty with them.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Border_all said:


> Well everyone.....
> 
> As a decisive chap 😁. I have purchased an ECM Mechanika V Slim from Bella Barista.
> 
> ...


 Congratulations! It is a solid machine and with your experience you will enjoy it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Border_all said:


> Well everyone.....
> 
> As a decisive chap 😁. I have purchased an ECM Mechanika V Slim from Bella Barista.
> 
> ...


 Errr....yeah not really sure what you mean here. You could just do a bank transfer if you don't want to send payment via TransferWise. I guess you mean you feel you need security sending ACS money which is a bit weird to me as it's just the same as buying from any other company i.e. if they don't send the goods you can start legal action. It's basically like buying anything digitally and remotely without using paypal.

But whatever. Hopefully you enjoy the machine.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

I understand many feel safe doing business via bank transfer outside of the U.K. in my case I don't and I appreciate that ACS find sending PayPal invoice for purchase tedious or expensive though clearly for any deal both parties need feel safe.

😁


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Border_all said:


> I understand many feel safe doing business via bank transfer outside of the U.K. in my case I don't and I appreciate that ACS find sending PayPal invoice for purchase tedious or expensive though clearly for any deal both parties need feel safe.
> 
> 😁


 I think you have to do what feels comfortable, enjoy the ECM machine.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> I think you have to do what feels comfortable, enjoy the ECM machine.


 Thank you Dave 👍


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> Errr....yeah not really sure what you mean here. You could just do a bank transfer if you don't want to send payment via TransferWise. I guess you mean you feel you need security sending ACS money which is a bit weird to me as it's just the same as buying from any other company i.e. if they don't send the goods you can start legal action. It's basically like buying anything digitally and remotely without using paypal.
> 
> But whatever. Hopefully you enjoy the machine.


 Taking legal action is a much bigger pain (and possibly unrealistic in the case of an overseas company), when compared to initiating a chargeback or raising a Paypal dispute. FWIW, I would also be uncomfortable.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

John Yossarian said:


> Out of curiosity why the pressure will be different subject to whether you measure it (have a manometer installed) or not? The pressure should be established with the speed of sound as it is a mechanical intensive property of the system and as such would be the same in the whole system of connected pipes, manometer included.
> 
> If one measures the temperature of an ant with a body temperature thermometer, the temperature of the ant would be a function of the thermometer.
> 
> ...


 A Bourdon manometer acts as a damper. The final pressure wIll not be different but the pressure rise is changed (slowed down) by the manometer.

That is why sticking a gauge on a Minima and observing a slow ramp up tells you nothing about the actual ramp up of the machine without a gauge installed.

i was wrong to say it was an example of the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, which refers to Quantum physics. It is an example of general uncertainty principle where the act of measurement changes what is being measured.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

facboy said:


> Taking legal action is a much bigger pain (and possibly unrealistic in the case of an overseas company), when compared to initiating a chargeback or raising a Paypal dispute. FWIW, I would also be uncomfortable.


 Not really unrealistic, you just may have to file claims in their country. Certainly more realistic than a reputable company that deals internationally shafting you just because you aren't living locally. But as said if you're not comfortable with it that's all the matters really, not much need to discuss it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It is important to go on a Retailers history of resolving problems as that really tells you whether your in good hands or not. If you buy from ACS directly you will get a good price, they will send you parts (for 2 years and in some cases longer) and advice but you need to be competent and happy to do your own repairs. If you want the security and ease of a Retailer, then you buy in the UK and you pay more.

Nikko needs a physics lesson <lol>


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

Paying by card will also give you extra protection vs bank transfer. You have section 75 protections for credit cards and also similar options for debit cards depending on provider.

I would also personally not want to pay by bank transfer for a new machine.

https://www.ukfinance.org.uk/area-of-expertise/cards/chargeback-and-section-75


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