# New G-Iota DF64 / Solo (?) 64mm flat burr single dosing grinder



## Baffo

Thought I'd open a proper thread since we've been discussing it sparsely here and there.

Found a new more pics. Below.

There's also a Polish distributor that has posted plenty of testing info, *here*. A quick Google Translate gives me the following:

 In our trials, the maximum retention was as follows:
 When changing the thickness of the setting from fine to coarse, it swept up to 0.6 g. What remained inside the funnel, burrs and in the outlet did not exceed 0.1 g
 When you grind for the first time after cleaning the grinder, it left up to 0.7 g.
 Without changing the setting, between each espresso grinds up to 0.2 g.
 Similarly, during subsequent regrinds to the overflow, the grinder stopped up to 0.1 g


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## cuprajake

Looks like a capable machine


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## Baffo

I don't understand much about issues with burr alignment, SSP unimodal burs, what-have-you, but here goes


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## Missy

It seems to be a shrunk and tilted SJ? Though that may be over simplistic?


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## aganov

@DavecUK may we have photos/info of the internals 😛 motor, gears etc?


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## Baffo

> 4 minutes ago, aganov said:


 he's already posted the below, which I'm copypasting just so that I don't direct people to the other thread where this G-Iota is off-topic. I presume this is as far as he can go for now?

*@DavecUK (not me) said:*

I fired off a pm, usually I don't like to get involved in stuff like this. The owner of Time Leisure (part of the group of companies of which BB is one), has confirmed to me that* they will definitely be stocking it.*

I don't know when, but I imagine it won't be long...I think the first batch is going to be air shipped....I'd recommend you keep your eyes peeled for any pre-order on the site. I will probably do a Mini Review, regardless, even though I have not been asked to. *It's pretty good though.*..video is as video does. Watch it and look. Here are a few photos. The coffee can't actually get into the motor chamber, no route, that's a good thing. Made in China, but it's not rubbish, and I think a rather good grinder for the potential price. Retention is almost much nil like the Niche...although I do wish I had a dosing ring (being solved soon by the kindness of a member). Stirring not necessary as you saw, although it might help, I don't bother.

So, yeah...it's not a bad grinder at all, and I have a set of TiN burrs coming, how much difference they will make..don't know....should make some. If you want a flat burr alternative to the Niche, that's probably cheaper...here it is.....I suspect it might become the first of many entering a market that has not been well served up to now.

  

P.S. The plastic cup is what it is...just get a metal one from Amazon for £5 ish.


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## ajohn

It's interesting what Niche has kicked off. Many might be thankful eventually as more ideas crop up now that there is obviously a sizeable market.


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## MWJB

Baffo said:


> I don't understand much about issues with burr alignment, SSP unimodal burs, what-have-you, but here goes


 Espresso grind from typical burr grinders (I've never seem a plot from a 3 phase, huge burr grinder) has never yet been identified as unimodal.


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## Aidy

hm, that looks really interesting - I'd been sort of trying to justify a Lagom to myself...


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## Baffo

@MWJB I was merely referring to the title and content of the video (which eludes my understanding; I've yet to go this deep into the rabbit hole) Mark, surely not passing any judgement as I've got zero knowledge on the matter. Are you suggesting that such expensive burrs would be poor value for getting "better flavour in the cup"?


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## NikC

Does look interesting- be good to know what the quality of the materials, fit and finish is like.


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## NikC

Thanks Baffo for starting the thread


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## MWJB

Baffo said:


> @MWJB I was merely referring to the title and content of the video (which eludes my understanding; I've yet to go this deep into the rabbit hole) Mark, surely not passing any judgement. Are you suggesting that such expensive burrs would be poor value for getting "better flavour in the cup"?


 Sure, I appreciate that, and it's somewhat moot - you'll grind at the setting that works & produces a good cup, whilst not caring/knowing how many modes you have. But there is growing misinformation on the existence of unimodal espresso grinders. If someone was considering a range of grinders, this perceived notion might be what tips into making a purchase - and they may well enjoy this purchase...as they might an option they passed over. They might also believe a choice of grinder makes them more physically attractive, but I don't think anyone on this forum would believe that .

I am making no suggestion, nor comment on flavour in the cup, nor on the cash value/utility of the burrs.


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## DavecUK

NikC said:


> Does look interesting- be good to know what the quality of the materials, fit and finish is like.


 Without trying to influence people...don't care if you buy one or not or where you get it from.



Heavy, mainly metal where it needs to be


Aluminium alloy, so a fair bit of motor weight


Polycarbonate front spine...is, well, polycarbonate


Power button illuminted, it's OK


Poratilter forks, OK


Bottom bit it stands on...Polycarbonate...feet on mine were stuck on by someone else, have no idea what production feet will be like. So if you intend using the grinder upside down...it might be a concern


drop it on the floor...bits might break...in transit, looks like it will be quite robust and won't go out of alignment if they drop the package


fit is OK


Rubber bellows are OK


Colour of mine is aluminium...but it's a wrap, I cave also seen a carbon fibre wrap one...which I think BB will get...looks OK


You probably won't be taking loads of photos of it like a Lyn Weber, or Monolith...


Works OK though and I'd broadly agree with the polish distributors findings...it's effectively a flat burr grinder that can do what the Niche can do but with bellows...not quite as elegant, but it's cheaper. The real difference then becomes, price and flat vs conical and I'm not even going to go there.


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## NikC

Thanks DaveC that's very useful. Looks like it and a modified specialita could be in same bracket?


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## DavecUK

NikC said:


> Thanks DaveC that's very useful. Looks like it and a modified specialita could be in same bracket?


 Umm...No


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## Baffo

NikC said:


> Thanks DaveC that's very useful. Looks like it and a modified specialita could be in same bracket?


 At least to get similar burrs you'd need to look at the new Mignon XL65 and add bellows to it. We'd be probably hovering around a grand total of £650. Which is nearly double the £399 price tag for this one.

Now, of course there's more to life than burr size, and there's still plenty of unknowns regarding this new product (after sales support, spare parts, motor and component long term reliability, manufacturer unknown..), but if we are merely looking at the spec sheet vs the price, then it's leagues ahead a comparable Mignon by virtue of a price that is roughly 40% lower (if compared to an XL65) or by virtue of far larger burrs (if compared to a similarly priced £360-ish Eureka)

Of course, this is for people who want to single dose. The Eureka can still be run with a full hopper. This one.. Well, doesn't even have one.


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## Tinkstar

> 2 hours ago, Baffo said:
> 
> I don't understand much about issues with burr alignment, SSP unimodal burs, what-have-you, but here goes


 Ultra Newbie here, but

Shut up and take my MONEY!!! A coffee machine with stats and data 🤣 me want


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## Cooffe

NikC said:


> Thanks DaveC that's very useful. Looks like it and a modified specialita could be in same bracket?


 I think you're right - a modified specialita, with its flat burrs and almost nil retention after the appropriate mods have been completed will be similar.


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## Mrboots2u

Cooffe said:


> I think you're right - a modified specialita, with its flat burrs and almost nil retention after the appropriate mods have been completed will be similar.


 Burr size, geometry and alignment will all make a difference .


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## Cooffe

Mrboots2u said:


> Burr size, geometry and alignment will all make a difference .


 Completely agree, however if none of that has been confirmed (aside from burr size) then we can only assume it will be comparable to the Mignon?


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## MediumRoastSteam

I'm struggling to understand what's the main difference between this grinder and, as per above, a modified for single dose (lens hood mod?) Atom / Mignon / 64e or any other grinder with similar burr chamber/chute design.

Maybe the burr chamber design is different, I don't know... Is it? Do the burrs spin at a lower speed? What are the main differences inside this grinder compared to a box standard hopper fed grinder modified for single dose?


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## Baffo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm struggling to understand what's the main difference between this grinder and, as per above, a modified for single dose (lens hood mod?) Atom / Mignon / 64e or any other grinder with similar burr chamber/chute design.
> 
> Maybe the burr chamber design is different, I don't know... Is it? Do the burrs spin at a lower speed? What are the main differences inside this grinder compared to a box standard hopper fed grinder modified for single dose?


 I don't think there's any difference in functionality per se, at least by the looks of the video, it does not seem like workflow is any different. You fill the "hopper" with your dose, start grinding, give it a few puffs, done.

I suppose the only difference is that:

- if you look at a comparably-priced Eureka (Specialita, £359, + mod, let's say £20) you get far bigger burrs for the same price with this one.

- if you look at a comparably-burred (sic) Eureka (Atom 65, Mignon XL65) you have to pay far less for the same burrs on this one.


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## Northern_Monkey

Missy said:


> It seems to be a shrunk and tilted SJ? Though that may be over simplistic?


 Pretty accurate, maybe tighter clearance on the sweeper vanes and marginally less dead spots under the carrier.

More plastic than the Mazzers, especially on the adjustment collar. With the floating three spring top burr carrier it also means it won't ever be super aligned. People questioned the difference fancy burrs would make on a SJ.

Not 100% convinced it adds a lot more than a SJ or Major with a Daniel Wong kit tbh. Cheaper mind, but arguably looks wise more divisive than the Niche, made me think of a metal bathroom pedal bin! 😂


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## Aidy

> I'm struggling to understand what's the main difference between this grinder and, as per above, a modified for single dose (lens hood mod?) Atom / Mignon / 64e or any other grinder with similar burr chamber/chute design.


 I'm not sure that you couldn't say the same for *any* grinder. Fundamentally, they're just a motor and a set of burrs.


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## FrancescoS

I have been following it for a while now - a Belgium retailer has opened pre-orders last month and I am very tempted: 399 euro with standard burrs and 659 with SSP burrs.

For Europeans this is cheaper than a Niche Zero, which sells for 750 euro (including VAT and other fees). With the difference that the Niche has been around for a while and it's tested and proven, but that's another story 🙂

The first batch will be shipped mid march, so hopefully we'll get more info and reviews


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## Northern_Monkey

@Aidy - Some grinders have augers (EK and atom etc.) bean turbine (Kafatek) or weights added in the throat by people as a way of helping them be more uniform on single dosing. Cheapest solution was the bean flow control disc now shipped as standard with Niche grinders for that.

Other grinders have more efficient sweeper mechanisms like the Niche Zero etc., or enough grunt in the motor to clear more effectively if single dosed like a modified Major or Atom 75e.


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## DavecUK

I just made this for fun, partly because I liked the music and partly because I happened to be videoing the shot this morning....for fun. Enjoy

It's unlisted:


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## profesor_historia

Northern_Monkey said:


> Pretty accurate, maybe tighter clearance on the sweeper vanes and marginally less dead spots under the carrier.
> More plastic than the Mazzers, especially on the adjustment collar. With the floating three spring top burr carrier it also means it won't ever be super aligned. People questioned the difference fancy burrs would make on a SJ.
> Not 100% convinced it adds a lot more than a SJ or Major with a Daniel Wong kit tbh. Cheaper mind, but arguably looks wise more divisive than the Niche, made me think of a metal bathroom pedal bin!


Yes you may be right but for us in Europe it's an alternative to Niche and a very good option now that Niche has become more expensive and you have to wait plus the problems at the customs etc and the delays etc, not knowing how the after sale service will work etc. People here in Spain still waiting for their February Niche...


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## MWJB

profesor_historia said:


> Northern_Monkey said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pretty accurate, maybe tighter clearance on the sweeper vanes and marginally less dead spots under the carrier.
> More plastic than the Mazzers, especially on the adjustment collar. With the floating three spring top burr carrier it also means it won't ever be super aligned. People questioned the difference fancy burrs would make on a SJ.
> Not 100% convinced it adds a lot more than a SJ or Major with a Daniel Wong kit tbh. Cheaper mind, but arguably looks wise more divisive than the Niche, made me think of a metal bathroom pedal bin!
> 
> 
> 
> Yes you may be right but for us in Europe it's an alternative to Niche and a very good option now that Niche has become more expensive and you have to wait plus the problems at the customs etc and the delays etc, not knowing how the after sale service will work etc. People here in Spain still waiting for their February Niche...
Click to expand...

 They do make grinders in Spain & other European countries.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

The 2021 would belong to single dosing grinders!


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## Baffo

@MWJB think he's referring to the fact that as things stand now, the Niche is circa 25% more expensive in EU due to VAT being applied twice + import duties which are currently (until a system is devised) hitting goods moving from EU to UK and vice versa when the vendor is charging prices incl. VAT. Which makes the value proposition of this new grinder all the more appealing.


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## MWJB

Baffo said:


> @MWJB think he's referring to the fact that as things stand now, the Niche is circa 25% more expensive in EU due to VAT being applied twice + import duties which are hitting goods moving from EU to UK and vice versa. Which makes the value proposition of this new grinder all the more appealing.


 Sure, but there are options, from Compak for example.


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## Baffo

MWJB said:


> Sure, but there are options, from Compak for example.


 It looks like a good candidate for modding (but I haven't seen any specific kit being sold). I suppose that the "innovation" of the G-Iota is just that it comes as a single doser out of the box. Like the Niche, which admittedly has an easier workflow due to burr choice not relying as much on bellows being pushed.

Is there an alternative to this new grinder, which comes with similar-size flat burrs, and has readily available (across UK, EU) doserless mods, at roughly the same price?

I understand that the same can be achieved by buying a used Mazzer and modding it, but I take this new G-Iota as a welcome push to the market.


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## Rincewind

Baffo said:


> There's also a Polish distributor that has posted plenty of testing info, here. A quick Google Translate gives me the following:


 For our non-tech-savvy readers here is the same page already translated for you, in case you were having problems doing so.

click to see page TRANSLATED


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## MWJB

Baffo said:


> I understand that the same can be achieved by buying a used Mazzer and modding it, but I take this new G-Iota as a welcome push to the market.


 Of course, new products & wider, value for money choices are always welcome.

OE do short stack hoppers with weights for Compaks, a bit pricey & come from the US.


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## HVL87

So apparently the "DS64", new name pending, will be available for pre-order at Bella Barista in the next few days in the OEM carbon fibre style. 100 or so should be shipped before the end of the month. Bella Barista have 3 month exclusivity in the U.K.

...I might pre-order a Niche, as buying the "DS64" is a bit of a punt at the moment.


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## Baffo

HVL87 said:


> So apparently the "DS64", new name pending, will be available for pre-order at Bella Barista in the next few days in the OEM carbon fibre style. 100 or so should be shipped before the end of the month. Bella Barista have 3 month exclusivity in the U.K.
> 
> ...I might pre-order a Niche, as buying the "DS64" is a bit of a punt at the moment.


 Thanks for the info. Do you know whether BB will offer any kind of warranty? Unsure whether the 2-year BTB warranty applies to grinders in general.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Aidy said:


> I'm not sure that you couldn't say the same for *any* grinder. Fundamentally, they're just a motor and a set of burrs.


 Understood. But, take an example, the Niche: It's clear why it's virtually zero retention. You can see the work done. On this one, I'm failing to see. Maybe because I haven't looked hard enough in the videos and pictures available - there are not many - but I can't see the obvious difference between the burr chamber and chute path between this one and an Eureka Specialita - as an example. It seems that the coffee grinds are dislodged by air and air alone. So, in theory, the same can be done with the Mignon.


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## HVL87

Baffo said:


> Thanks for the info. Do you know whether BB will offer any kind of warranty? Unsure whether the 2-year BTB warranty applies to grinders in general.


 Not sure but I've asked the question. Will update.


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## Baffo

HVL87 said:


> Not sure but I've asked the question. Will update.


 Meanwhile I'm asking whether I can have the machine+grinder discount that I was denied by being told on Friday that they weren't going to launch it 🤣 A bit annoying, to be honest.


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## Ando

As someone in the market currently for a new grinder, I'm struggling to see how this beats a Niche (I don't and have never owned one).
When I had issues with my Specialita I was told that £350 is entry level for a grinder and u get what you pay for etc etc..
This grinder is surely no different to that - entry level and as such likely to have problems at some point. 
Tried and tested vs Unknown entity all to save £100 (not exactly life changing sum of money regardless of budget)


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## Baffo

Ando said:


> As someone in the market currently for a new grinder, I'm struggling to see how this beats a Niche (I don't and have never owned one).
> When I had issues with my Specialita I was told that £350 is entry level for a grinder and u get what you pay for etc etc..
> This grinder is surely no different to that - entry level and as such likely to have problems at some point.
> Tried and tested vs Unknown entity all to save £100 (not exactly life changing sum of money regardless of budget)


 This grinder has burrs that are found on models that cost many times more. 64mm burrs are all but entry level.

The only reasons where it could edge the Niche are the potential absence of a 2-month (or longer) wait upon purchase, and the flat burrs (some people seem to prefer flat to conical, I wouldn't know). This new grinder does what a modded Eureka does, so nothing revolutionary, but *in theory* it has much better spec for the money.

Other than this, yes, tried and tested vs unknows is a fair point and it is a punt. But so was Niche a while back.


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## Aidy

Ando said:


> As someone in the market currently for a new grinder, I'm struggling to see how this beats a Niche (I don't and have never owned one).
> When I had issues with my Specialita I was told that £350 is entry level for a grinder and u get what you pay for etc etc..
> This grinder is surely no different to that - entry level and as such likely to have problems at some point.
> Tried and tested vs Unknown entity all to save £100 (not exactly life changing sum of money regardless of budget)


 It's not really about whether this "beats a Niche". At least not for me.

As far as I'm aware, there are no other flat burr, single dose grinders at anywhere close to this or a Niche's price point.

If it was this or a Niche, then yes, I'd probably go with a Niche - but we're really talking this *and* a Niche.


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## profesor_historia

MWJB said:


> They do make grinders in Spain & other European countries.


Not sure I am following.


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## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> The real difference then becomes, price and flat vs conical and I'm not even going to go there.


 That made me smile. Thanks. Not many posts do


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## Baffo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Understood. But, take an example, the Niche: It's clear why it's virtually zero retention. You can see the work done. *On this one, I'm failing to see. *Maybe because I haven't looked hard enough in the videos and pictures available - there are not many - but I can't see the obvious difference between the burr chamber and chute path between this one and an Eureka Specialita - as an example. It seems that the coffee grinds are dislodged by air and air alone. So, in theory, the same can be done with the Mignon.


 There is no work being done. This grinder is simply the result of a market that has been *extremely* slow to catch up on the huge success of the Niche. It's nearly unbelievable how no manufacturer has decided to act on this new single-dosing revolution (or fad, depending on whom you ask) by just throwing a set of bellows together with their grinders, leaving it to people with 3d printers and/or ingenuity around the world. Eureka does sell one (or at least, did) but this is in not really advertised and it's not included with the grinder itself.


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## profesor_historia

MWJB said:


> Sure, but there are options, from Compak for example.


Yes but we were talking about Niche and this new grinder







. Compak is a profesional beast, extremely expensive and big for home. I had several Compak grinders, thank God that you can find them every now and then for a good price used.


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## profesor_historia

Baffo said:


> There is no work being done. This grinder is simply the result of a market that has been *extremely* slow to catch up on the huge success of the Niche. It's nearly unbelievable how no manufacturer has decided to act on this new single-dosing revolution (or fad, depending on whom you ask) by just throwing a set of bellows together with their grinders, leaving it to people with 3d printers and/or ingenuity around the world. Eureka does sell one (or at least, did) but this is in not really advertised and it's not included with the grinder itself.


I completely agree. Rancilio is yet to launch the V50 which is very promising, vertical 50mm flat burrs claiming a very low retention. Let's see.

I am waiting for the Arco, but if I were looking for a new grinder this would be the dilemma: paying 750€ for a Niche and waiting for 2 months or 399€ for this G-IOTA?
I know Niche may be superior in many aspects, but it almost the double!


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## MWJB

profesor_historia said:


> Yes but we were talking about Niche and this new grinder   . Compak is a profesional beast, extremely expensive and big for home. I had several Compak grinders, thank God that you can find them every now and then for a good price used.


 K3 is priced around £350 here, inc. VAT?


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## HVL87

Baffo said:


> There is no work being done. This grinder is simply the result of a market that has been *extremely* slow to catch up on the huge success of the Niche. It's nearly unbelievable how no manufacturer has decided to act on this new single-dosing revolution (or fad, depending on whom you ask) by just throwing a set of bellows together with their grinders, leaving it to people with 3d printers and/or ingenuity around the world. Eureka does sell one (or at least, did) but this is in not really advertised and it's not included with the grinder itself.


 Apparently the majority of people still buy hopper fed grinders (maybe due to availability or convenience), so this new single dosing grinder won't necessarily impact sales of Eureka for example, at least for now. Single dosing is apparently still a...niche.

Saying that, this thread has "Solo" in the title. Apparently that will be the name of the new Eureka single dosing grinder which I believe has 55mm burrs.


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## ajohn

profesor_historia said:


> Yes but we were talking about Niche and this new grinder   . Compak is a profesional beast, extremely expensive and big for home. I had several Compak grinders, thank God that you can find them every now and then for a good price used.


 A lot of people weigh in for convenience and to maintain a constant dose weight. It can do something in the cup that differs to when the hopper is used. Some don't even modify them to do that. Some do it more effectively than others after modification. Maybe we will switch slowly to all grinders leaning more than the tower of Pisa over time as it becomes fashionable not just for the advantages it can offer.

The professional beasts. They are built to produce large quantities of grinds before bits wear out. Burrs probably going first followed with bearings. Burrs can take 100kg or more. Little of this matters really to a home user  other than running them in. Say some one buys a Smart Grinder Pro. It's going to take a heavier home user some time more than you might think to wear it out.

One review I saw long ago had an interesting idea. When buying gear spend good proportion of the amount on the grinder. Not that this will work really as what grinders do varies even at the same price as do machines.


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## jonr2

Baffo said:


> There is no work being done. This grinder is simply the result of a market that has been *extremely* slow to catch up on the huge success of the Niche. It's nearly unbelievable how no manufacturer has decided to act on this new single-dosing revolution (or fad, depending on whom you ask) by just throwing a set of bellows together with their grinders, leaving it to people with 3d printers and/or ingenuity around the world. Eureka does sell one (or at least, did) but this is in not really advertised and it's not included with the grinder itself.


 ^^^^^^ this^^^^^^^

on its own this is why i won't buy a Mignon and modify - manufacturers need to sort themselves out and sell what people want - we dont live in a world anymore where you can ben successful long term by telling people what they should buy - consumers are too well informed now


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## Baffo

HVL87 said:


> Apparently the majority of people still buy hopper fed grinders (maybe due to availability or convenience), so this new single dosing grinder won't necessarily impact sales of Eureka for example, at least for now. Single dosing is apparently still a...niche.
> 
> Saying that, this thread has "Solo" in the title. Apparently that will be the name of the new Eureka single dosing grinder which I believe has 55mm burrs.


 Are you sure? I have an email from Bella Barista which clearly outlines the specs of the Solo, and it's basically this new G-Iota DF64 ds64 whatever..


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## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> Are you sure? I have an email from Bella Barista which clearly outlines the specs of the Solo, and it's basically this new G-Iota DF64 ds64 whatever..


 Yeah, It's the same grinder, of course if you look closely my coffee bean grind indicator is white...only because I coloured it that way to make it visible....which of course makes mine better in every way.


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## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> Yeah, It's the same grinder, of course if you look closely my coffee bean grind indicator is white...only because I coloured it that way to make it visible....which of course makes mine better in every way.


 Yep but @HVL87 mentioned the Solo is the new Eureka grinder. Which would contradict this..

Eureka will be launching something yes, but I don't know if people are referring to the Zeus which will cost £££ or to an entry level single doser (which would be bemusing, they already have a huge lineup of flat burr grinders to be equipped with bellows, so perhaps it would have some quirk to it?)


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## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> Yep but @HVL87 mentioned the Solo is the new Eureka grinder. Which would contradict this..


 The real problem is I've been using all this stuff..but hey what do I know 🤣


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## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> The real problem is I've been using all this stuff..but hey what do I know 🤣


 I know that you know haha You've been tight-lipped on the Eureka though!

What puzzles me is that BB seems to be feeding wrong info to people who enquire. As you remember I was told this wasn't to be launched, and now another user arguably was told (I'm assuming he was told) that the Solo is an Eureka product.


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## ajohn

Baffo said:


> I know that you know haha You've been tight-lipped on the Eureka though!
> 
> What puzzles me is that BB seems to be feeding wrong info to people who enquire. As you remember I was told this wasn't to be launched, and now another user arguably was told (I'm assuming he was told) that the Solo is an Eureka product.


 Any company might choose to use Chinese manufacturing capacity.


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## HVL87

Baffo said:


> Are you sure? I have an email from Bella Barista which clearly outlines the specs of the Solo, and it's basically this new G-Iota DF64 ds64 whatever..
> 
> View attachment 53529


 That's what I was told, although maybe names are getting mixed up.

Eureka are due to release a single dosing grinder though, regardless of name.


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## jonr2

HVL87 said:


> That's what I was told, although maybe names are getting mixed up.
> 
> Eureka are due to release a single dosing grinder though, regardless of name.


 maybe this chinese made grinder is going to be sold by BB badged under licence as a Eureka Solo


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## HVL87

Baffo said:


> I know that you know haha You've been tight-lipped on the Eureka though!
> 
> What puzzles me is that BB seems to be feeding wrong info to people who enquire. As you remember I was told this wasn't to be launched, and now another user arguably was told (I'm assuming he was told) that the Solo is an Eureka product.


 I wouldn't worry too much about different info being given out. At least we know this new 64mm single doser will be available for pre-order at BB and @DavecUK is testing it. From what I understand the first batch is a trial run.

Eureka are also due to release a single dosing grinder for which BB tested a prototype end of last year. Apparently in a similar price range to the Specialita. The DF or DS64 is apparently better.


----------



## Ando

Why is the whole flat vs conical burrs such a difficult topic to address?
Is it because the differences are all subjective depending on individual taste?


----------



## cuprajake

Looks that way, and its a heated debate. Bit like android vs iphone


----------



## Aidy

Ando said:


> Why is the whole flat vs conical burrs such a difficult topic to address?


 Is it difficult to address? No one's really asked about flat vs. conical here. Merely stated it as a difference. Noone's dodging it as a question.


----------



## MWJB

Ando said:


> Why is the whole flat vs conical burrs such a difficult topic to address?
> Is it because the differences are all subjective depending on individual taste?


 Show us distribution plots from the grinders in question and we can discuss it.


----------



## Ando

Aidy said:


> Is it difficult to address? No one's really asked about flat vs. conical here. Merely stated it as a difference. Noone's dodging it as a question.


 Dave has said he isn't going there. Hoffman touched on it in grinder series and said topic is worthy of its own series.



MWJB said:


> Show us distribution plots from the grinders in question and we can discuss it.


 That is waaay over my head! If that is what is required though to determine a difference, is it fair to say that for the average home user at entry level it makes not the slightest bit of difference which style of burr is in the grinder?


----------



## jonr2

Ando said:


> Dave has said he isn't going there. Hoffman touched on it in grinder series and said topic is worthy of its own series.
> 
> That is waaay over my head! If that is what is required though to determine a difference, is it fair to say that for the average home user at entry level it makes not the slightest bit of difference which style of burr is in the grinder?


 🤣 - i havent got a clue personally, but as you asked .......

as i understand it - conical burrs the beans fall through as they are ground and so the pieces are more different in size

flat burrs this doesnt happen but they can heat the coffee if they turn too fast

these 2 different actions cause the same coffee to have a different taste when made.

but as stated above - it seems to be a bit of an android / iphone thing where some people take the difference to mean better - but ultimately i think it prob comes down to what you like to drink - not really any point sinking a load of money on grinders, beans, machines etc and then hating what you produce 🙂


----------



## profesor_historia

I had small conical burr grinders, big conical, small medium and big flat burrs, around 13 in the last 10 years. Couldn't tell I noticed a difference in taste but what I have found out is that the big conical are rare and expensive even as second hand. Here in Spain you can find Super Jollys for about 100€ or flat Compak etc but only once in whileeeee you see a conical. Couldn't tell why. You can find a used Major but I have never seen a used Kony at a decent price.


----------



## Baffo

HVL87 said:


> I wouldn't worry too much about different info being given out. At least we know this new 64mm single doser will be available for pre-order at BB and @DavecUK is testing it. From what I understand the first batch is a trial run.
> 
> Eureka are also due to release a single dosing grinder for which BB tested a prototype end of last year. Apparently in a similar price range to the Specialita. The DF or DS64 is apparently better.


 When you say "apparently better" I assume this has come from BB? I wonder if it reflects merely the difference in burr size.

I can't imagine what Eureka is cooking, they already have a bewildering lineup of products, and more or less each of those can be fitted with bellows. Surely they're not going to launch yet another new model that has no other innovation other than it being fitted with bellows out of the box? They would have simply revamped the Specialità 55..


----------



## cuprajake

I thought large conicals retain grinds too. From looking. As i was going to get a robur


----------



## profesor_historia

Cuprajake said:


> I thought large conicals retain grinds too. From looking. As i was going to get a robur


Yes but I think less due to their geometry.


----------



## MWJB

Ando said:


> That is waaay over my head! If that is what is required though to determine a difference, is it fair to say that for the average home user at entry level it makes not the slightest bit of difference which style of burr is in the grinder?


 You'd have to look at it on a grinder by grinder basis. But there is very little data publicly shared (Baratza have some plots on their site).

Think of it like a 'normal distribution' - A few grinders are known to make very tight distributions (EK-43, Baratza Vario/Forte, Mythos) most are normal (within a tolerance), a few make wide distributions (low tolerance builds, or burrs designed for an unusual wide spread).


----------



## Northern_Monkey

Cuprajake said:


> Looks that way, and its a heated debate. Bit like android vs iphone


 I quite like the "Big-Endian vs. Little-Endian" comparison in this case! 🥚


----------



## YokuSan

Just wanted to add that the cost for the grinder goes down to 140 pounds plus tax if a reseller orders at least 30 units:

https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600200242614/2021-Most-Popular-Low-Retention-Household.html?__detailProductImg=https%3A%2F%2Fs.alicdn.com%2F%40sc01%2Fkf%2FH9db1dc071b8340e0ad3318f3c3858278o.jpg_200x200.jpg

For around 230 pound that would be very good machine I guess.


----------



## Aidy

Cuprajake said:


> I thought large conicals retain grinds too. From looking. As i was going to get a robur


 It'll have a lot to do with the grind path, I'd have thought. Robur has to push out the grounds through horizontal chute - would have thought grinds would collect there (compared with say, a Baratza Sette, where they fall straight down).


----------



## Aidy

YokuSan said:


> Just wanted to add that the cost for the grinder goes down to 140 pounds plus tax if a reseller orders at least 30 units:
> 
> https://m.alibaba.com/product/1600200242614/2021-Most-Popular-Low-Retention-Household.html?__detailProductImg=https%3A%2F%2Fs.alicdn.com%2F%40sc01%2Fkf%2FH9db1dc071b8340e0ad3318f3c3858278o.jpg_200x200.jpg
> 
> For around 230 pound that would be very good machine I guess.


 Shipping goes up in such a fashion that the quantity breaks make little to no difference, though.

To the UK, 1 is £302.62 , 10 are £3000.92.

Never mind, I misread the quantity breaks.


----------



## Rincewind

profesor_historia said:


> I am waiting for the Arco, but if I were looking for a new grinder this would be the dilemma: paying 750€ for a Niche and waiting for 2 months or 399€ for this G-IOTA?


 But the G-IOTA is *LESS* money *AND* you get *RED SPEED BURRS* for ONLY 659 Euro's + any fee's....yes that's £569 + any fees......WOW 😎

click to see


----------



## Aidy

Rincewind said:


> But the G-IOTA is *LESS* money *AND* you get *RED SPEED BURRS* for ONLY 659 Euro's + any fee's....yes that's £569 + any fees......WOW 😎
> 
> click to see


 Or... you could buy the grinder and burrs separately for €399 + €240 = €639 from the same website?


----------



## Rincewind

Aidy said:


> Or... you could buy the grinder and burrs separately for €399 + €240 = €639 from the same website?


 True....but .....RED SPEED......mmmmmm.......😎


----------



## Aidy

Rincewind said:


> True....but .....RED SPEED......mmmmmm.......😎


 Err.. yes? https://homebarista.be/fr/shop/products/ssp-molen-messen-red-speed-coated-64mm-flat


----------



## Rincewind

Seen it already matey...i put that url on another post yesterday :classic_smile: ......just saying the G-IOTA grinder (WITH those RED SPEED burrs thrown in) that costs *659 Euro's is LESS than a 750 Euro* grinder (of another brand) :classic_wink:


----------



## Aidy

Rincewind said:


> Seen it already matey...i put that url on another post yesterday :classic_smile: ......just saying the G-IOTA grinder (WITH those RED SPEED burrs thrown in) that costs *659 Euro's is LESS than a 750 Euro* grinder (of another brand) :classic_wink:


 I think you're missing my point.

You could buy them separately for €20 less.


----------



## Rincewind

Aidy said:


> I think you're missing my point.
> 
> You could buy them separately for €20 less.


 Missed that :classic_blush: ....but what's 20 Euro's amongst friends :classic_wink:


----------



## PACMAN

So who on here has an account with Alibaba and can we get 30 people together to do a group buy? Here's a more 'PC' friendly link as well (the one above is a mobile link so appears HUGE on my laptop screen). What would the delviery charges be for 30 units?

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2021-Most-Popular-Household-Espresso-Coffee_1600200065632.html


----------



## Aidy

PACMAN said:


> So who on here has an account with Alibaba and can we get 30 people together to do a group buy? Here's a more 'PC' friendly link as well (the one above is a mobile link so appears HUGE on my laptop screen). What would the delviery charges be for 30 units?
> 
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2021-Most-Popular-Household-Espresso-Coffee_1600200065632.html


 Looks like £5781.68 shipped for 30. (£192.72 each).

Pretty much a mystery as to what the customs charges might be though. gov.uk just says "call helpline".


----------



## DavecUK

If you are organising a group buy, you need to check out the group buy rules and pop it in the correct area.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/13451-group-buy-rules/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=135033&embedComment=135033&embedDo=findComment#comment-135033


----------



## Baffo

PACMAN said:


> So who on here has an account with Alibaba and can we get 30 people together to do a group buy? Here's a more 'PC' friendly link as well (the one above is a mobile link so appears HUGE on my laptop screen). What would the delviery charges be for 30 units?
> 
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/2021-Most-Popular-Household-Espresso-Coffee_1600200065632.html


 It does sound like an interesting prospect. I won't comment further as Dave pointed out we need to post elsewhere, but I'd be interested.

The fact that it's a basic Alibaba import makes me want to get a bit of clarity.. Namely, what is Bella Barista offering for the increased price tag..


----------



## profesor_historia

Rincewind said:


> Seen it already matey...i put that url on another post yesterday
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ......just saying the G-IOTA grinder (WITH those RED SPEED burrs thrown in) that costs *659 Euro's is LESS than a 750 Euro* grinder (of another brand)


For the extra 20€ you can buy the more expensive model with the SSP burrs already aligned, supposedly.


----------



## PACMAN

DavecUK said:


> If you are organising a group buy, you need to check out the group buy rules and pop it in the correct area.
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/13451-group-buy-rules/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=135033&embedComment=135033&embedDo=findComment#comment-135033


 Thansk Dave - and no - I'm not looking to do a group buy - I'm asking if anyone else wants to organise it - way WAY beyond my desires / wishes / skills and amount of responsibility I'd want to take on.


----------



## Aidy

Aidy said:


> Looks like £5781.68 shipped for 30. (£192.72 each).
> 
> Pretty much a mystery as to what the customs charges might be though. gov.uk just says "call helpline".


 https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/8509400000

Maybe 2% ?


----------



## profesor_historia

Rincewind said:


> But the G-IOTA is *LESS* money *AND* you get *RED SPEED BURRS* for ONLY 659 Euro's + any fee's....yes that's £569 + any fees......WOW
> click to see


I know but for the moment I will wait for Arco to see how it is, budget is tight you know, don't want to upset the missus either and don't want to have more than 2 grinders in the kitchen .


----------



## DavecUK

PACMAN said:


> Thansk Dave - and no - I'm not looking to do a group buy - I'm asking if anyone else wants to organise it - way WAY beyond my desires / wishes / skills and amount of responsibility I'd want to take on.


 I was using you as an inclusive term. I realised you were using a shout out for someone else to perhaps organise..


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> The fact that it's a basic Alibaba import makes me want to get a bit of clarity.. Namely, what is Bella Barista offering for the increased price tag..


 I don't think it's that unreasonable, there's a bunch of electrical tests and documentation for imports, plus their standard two year warranty.

Hmm... The Alibaba thing does claim to have CE certification though, so perhaps it wouldn't be too annoying to import...


----------



## Baffo

Aidy said:


> I don't think it's that unreasonable, there's a bunch of electrical tests and documentation for imports, plus their standard two year warranty.
> 
> Hmm... The Alibaba thing does claim to have CE certification though, so perhaps it wouldn't be too annoying to import...


 Well, the two year warranty is offered on machines as far as I know. Is it on grinders as well? Will it be provided on this specific grinder as well? Considering that the producer is "just" an Alibaba seller with probably no presence in UK/EU, would they be able to provide spares and/or replace units timely should a fault occur? These are all questions that need answers, and good answers, if we are paying 399 GBP rather than roughly half that by purchasing direct..


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> Well, the two year warranty is offered on machines as far as I know. Is it on grinders as well?


 Their website says yes: https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/bella-barista-uk-warranty


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> These are all questions that need answers, and good answers, if we are paying 399 GBP rather than roughly half that by purchasing direct..


 I don't think that's really true/fair. I mean, I've no idea what profit margins are on most of the stuff I buy. Doesn't stop me from buying.


----------



## Aidy

Also, assuming a group buy of 30, that's ~£193/unit. + VAT (20%) + duty (assumed 2%) =~ £235.

Forwarding costs of £15? Probably some handling fees from the local couriers too. £260ish. Probably want to have some kind of insurance too. There's definitely some customs paperwork involved, not sure if/how much that'd be. Probably some other ways that customs/couriers would come after you too. I'd be surprised if a group buy came in at significantly under £280.

If you're a business, you have warehousing, staff costs, website/payment processing fees, aforementioned warranty, and presumably you'd like to make some kind of profit. If it is £399, that doesn't seem altogether unreasonable.


----------



## ajohn

Cuprajake said:


> I thought large conicals retain grinds too. From looking. As i was going to get a robur


 The reason for retention is where the grinds sweepers are. Around the edge on flat and under the burrs on conical. The difference in the amount held really relates to when the hopper is on. Niche uses conical and the sweeper is similar but it sweeps the lot out. Sage is different. Short path out, different style of sweeper and a short path out with little restriction. Other small conicals may be the same to some extent,

 It gets "worse". Taking Mazzer as an example. The path from burrs to the "way out" is fairly long and has a grid over it in both cases. This holds back the grinds so the lot remains full of grinds when the hopper is on. This compresses them to some extent. So say a home user is using it like this. Overnight the usual term used is the grinds go stale so first time it's used next day the grinder is purged of yesterdays grinds. More wasted on conical than flat.

The fact that the grinds are compressed means they exit it burrs at a different rate so when the grid is removed and it's used for weighing in a different grinder setting is needed to "obtain the same ratio" compared with hopper on. Finer but retention then may be no different on either type.

Another effect is breaking beans up to grind them. Flat uses centrifugal force bouncing the beans about. A weight of beans on top tends to keep them down in the burrs when the hopper is in use. Grinds continuously being forced through the burrs is what mostly causes them to come out. Some people have added tube to larger grinders to reduce the capacity of the hopper and then added a weight on top of the bean to make up for the lower total bean weight.

So convert flat to weighing in. If the top is open little bits of beans can be found feet from the grinder. Any tube type arrangement added gets coated with them. And the grinder will need setting finer.

Conical are distinctly different. Once a piece of bean is in them a sort of corkscrew action cause the grinds to emerge at the bottom. Essentially the don't need the weight of beans over them.  Then people worry about popcorning on them causing some effect so a little disk with slot at the edge has been added above the burrs. Niche. Some have reported a finer grind being needed after this has been fitted. Some have found no change. Different grind rates could be a cause of the difference.

All rather simply put and grinders differ but some grinds compression is a general feature of all doserless hopper grinders. Just different ways of achieving it. Big conicals came about to get the grind rates up for commercial use. This is also an attraction on flats. A single grinder can do more cups per hour the faster it grinds. It needs more power so prices go up.

Taste in the cup ? Just about anything done to grinds can change that. What's good or bad is subjective.


----------



## Rincewind

Aidy said:


> Also, assuming a group buy of 30, that's ~£193/unit. + VAT (20%) + duty (assumed 2%) =~ £235.


 This grinder though is a *"generic" (multi-branded) model*...BB will have their name/number for it and so will other retailers possibly....but because it is "generic" you will more than likely see it start to pop-up on the likes of Amazon/Ebay because someone "*without those overheads* you mentioned" *WILL buy a shitload in bulk* from say Alibaba and then flog them on Amazon/Ebay probably for not much more than your estimate above...a LITTLE profit x LOTS of sales = a tidy sum for doing sod all....i've seen this happen with plenty of products that are "generically" branded....just a matter of time.


----------



## cuprajake

@ajohn so basically almost all grinders retain grinds to some extent, when i had my niche it popcorned without the disc, and with the disc i got a bean stuck under it twice...it also needed to be set around 7 or 8 from memory. Maybe i got a crap used one, but i wasnt impressed..

I now have a single dose mazzer major. Im happy with it, its big though but thats a trade off for big burrs.

It appears most of what is said in terms of grinders, output, taste etc seems to by forum legend and theres no real data. I was trawling threads last night with no real definitive answer.


----------



## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> @ajohn so basically almost all grinders retain grinds to some extent, when i had my niche it popcorned without the disc, and with the disc i got a bean stuck under it twice...it also needed to be set around 7 or 8 from memory. Maybe i got a crap used one, but i wasnt impressed..
> 
> I now have a single dose mazzer major. Im happy with it, its big though but thats a trade off for big burrs.
> 
> It appears most of what is said in terms of grinders, output, taste etc seems to by forum legend and theres no real data. I was trawling threads last night with no real definitive answer.


 What I've read is purely anecdotal evidence, there's no scientific paper addressing the issue.

People used to have *mostly flat* as it was common on high end grinders, then Niche came around and people started to divide into factions. "Those who still want flat flavour profiles", "Those who slightly prefer flats but buy Niche cause it's great value", "those who can't tell the difference", "those who love the conical flavour profiles".

I think that most people will just adhere to the opinion that fits the grinder they currently have or will buy.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Baffo said:


> I think that most people will just adhere to the opinion that fits the grinder they currently have or will buy.


 Fact is, unless you can afford the space snd cost of having all the grinders on your bench and compare them like for like, side by side, you'll never know yourself. I've been through the same dilemma about flat vs Niche, I believe I prefer flat grinder profile as I drink light roasts, but I own the Niche and I'm happy with it, workflow wise. I almost convinced myself that flat is better for the coffee beans I drink based on people's comments everywhere. The truth is, you can find the exact opposite if you "research" too. There was a member on HomeBarista who had a a flat and a conical Monoliths side by side, drinks light roasted coffee and kept the conical one. Go figure.


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> People used to have *mostly flat* as it was common on high end grinders, then Niche came around and people started to divide into factions.


 Flat vs. Conical existed *WAY* before Niche.


----------



## Baffo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Fact is, unless you can afford the space snd cost of having all the grinders on your bench and compare them like for like, side by side, you'll never know yourself. I've been through the same dilemma about flat vs Niche, I believe I prefer flat grinder profile as I drink light roasts, but I own the Niche and I'm happy with it, workflow wise. I almost convinced myself that flat is better for the coffee beans I drink based on people's comments everywhere. The truth is, you can find the exact opposite if you "research" too. There was a member on HomeBarista who had a a flat and a conical Monoliths side by side, drinks light roasted coffee and kept the conical one. Go figure.


 I agree. The "problem" (I mean, it's a great problem to have) is that the Niche used to be a no-brainer in the "entry level" price bracket (if feels awfully wrong to say the Niche is "entry level", but the price tag is undeniably low when we talk about grinders). There was no player in the market at a similar price tag that would give you either the burr size or the workflow simplicity of the Niche.

Now, with grinders like this, which sport a 64mm flat burr and are £100 cheaper, the Niche is still great, but is it a no-brainer anymore? I don't know the answer to that, and I need a new grinder.


----------



## Baffo

Aidy said:


> Flat vs. Conical existed *WAY* before Niche.


 The debate yes, but aside from some exceptions (Robur comes to mind, surely there's others) flat burrs were far more common, no? I might be wrong.


----------



## profesor_historia

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Fact is, unless you can afford the space snd cost of having all the grinders on your bench and compare them like for like, side by side, you'll never know yourself. I've been through the same dilemma about flat vs Niche, I believe I prefer flat grinder profile as I drink light roasts, but I own the Niche and I'm happy with it, workflow wise. I almost convinced myself that flat is better for the coffee beans I drink based on people's comments everywhere. The truth is, you can find the exact opposite if you "research" too. There was a member on HomeBarista who had a a flat and a conical Monoliths side by side, drinks light roasted coffee and kept the conical one. Go figure.


And if I like medium roast in general, light roast every now and then and dark roasts once in a while?


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> The debate yes, but aside from some exceptions (Robur comes to mind, surely there's others) flat burrs were far more common, no? I might be wrong.


 I'd argue that flat burrs are still more common.

But, Robur, Kony, E92, HG-1, Monolith, Sette at least.

Niche were hardly ground breakers for conical burrs.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Baffo said:


> Now, with grinders like this, which sport a 64mm flat burr and are £100 cheaper, the Niche is still great, but is it a no-brainer anymore? I don't know the answer to that, and I need a new grinder.


 Completely agree. All of a sudden, within the same price bracket, people now have a choice. The Niche is no longer exclusive within the price bracket. Electric Single dose grinders are not new things, but the price of the Lagom, Monoliths, Versalab, Lyn Webber, etc are 4x the price of the Niche, at least.

Yet, having owning the Niche since they were first available (I was a super early bird supporter of the funding campaign), I'm not sure I would change the Niche for what I see in this one. The Niche is extremely easy to adjust, clean, dial in, disassemble... And it's virtually mess free. The workflow is excellent.

Blowing air through the top of the grinder to make something retention free is not something I'd value in my routine. And it looks messy too by what I've seen. There's something about this grinder which makes me unease. Maybe if I see one in the flesh I'd change my mind. Until then, I'll be sticking to my guns. 🙂


----------



## cuprajake

@profesor_historia you have to buy a big flat burr and a niche


----------



## cuprajake

@MediumRoastSteam i agree in terms of research you can find any answer your looking for eh, they say flats bring out the choc flavours while conical bring out the fruity stuff, yet when you look at beans ( i ) associate lighter roasts with fruit and med/dark for the choc - yet the burrs say flat for lighter and med/dark for conical


----------



## ajohn

Baffo said:


> Now, with grinders like this, which sport a 64mm flat burr and are £100 cheaper, the Niche is still great, but is it a no-brainer anymore? I don't know the answer to that, and I need a new grinder.


 There is a type of scientific evidence around and that is particle distribution obtained via sieves. Other than that is anecdotal. Grinders can produce different tastes due to particle distribution. Brand new ones may illustrate that until the burrs are run in. To many fines as they are called which results in a rather fierce "coffee taste" some might describe as bitter. Some people will say my grinder is wonderful because it can choke my machine. Loads of fines help with that as the take up space in the puck resisting water flow more and more according to proportions. Smaller pieces of coffee grinds extract more completely than larger ones. This is why excess fines is noticeable. Some one with an excellent pallet say a pro coffee taster will notice lower levels than the average joe. To my mouth a costa americano tastes of fines but it's more likely to be down to beans. A blend largely aimed a milk based really IMHO. Take that aspect and the other factors that I mentioned in a too long post. It leaves a pretty complicated picture because how the grinder is used will alter the particle distribution. People then tune to a taste they like  or that's what they should do. Many just tune to certain numbers and that's that. They need a grinder and bean that produces a taste they like to suite that particular ratio. Some eventually change the dose markedly. Go smaller baskets size and grind will need to finer. That changes extraction. Some use 40secs rather that 30. I sometimes use 20. There are so many variables it's difficult to reach any firm conclusions that grinder a is better than b. In some ways it's a personal thing so how to find out - buy it and see.

Oddballs. It seems an EK produces sweeter coffee. I've noticed it also seems to have a tendency to produce boulders. Something I don't like and as the initial compression in the coffee grinds has changed that is likely to alter taste. Some people always stir grinds. It can change taste.

Niche's main advantage - weighing in with minimum faff  other than the cup. Also burrs that are said to produce great coffee. Alternatives can be fitted which are significantly cheaper. Why weigh in - difficulty in using a timed grinder. Output will vary and will drift. The drift needs correcting when it gets to some point so output needs checking. When the grinder setting is changed the output will change so time needs to as well. Also the last settings grinds will be in the grind chamber so it needs purging out and throwing away. Fresh roasted beans may well need different grinder settings over the time taken to use them.


----------



## ajohn

Cuprajake said:


> i agree in terms of research you can find any answer your looking for eh, they say flats bring out the choc flavours while conical bring out the fruity stuff,


 Actually the opposite is often said along with a number of other factors. Conical shifting taste towards the darker roast end for instance.


----------



## profesor_historia

Cuprajake said:


> @profesor_historia you have to buy a big flat burr and a niche


You've just read my mind!!


----------



## ajohn

profesor_historia said:


> Cuprajake said:
> 
> 
> 
> @profesor_historia you have to buy a big flat burr and a niche
> 
> 
> 
> You've just read my mind!!
Click to expand...

 For flat you need an EK as they are said to be the best of the best and are what is usually used at barista championships so must be.


----------



## cuprajake

@ajohn and that proves the point lol

id say that unless you had them side by side your never going to know, or miss out - so spend wisely and be happy


----------



## Bicky

Comparisons with the Niche are inevitable, but I don't think anyone is suggesting there's going to be an exodus from the Niche to one of these. For people who don't have (or want!) a Niche however, this seems like an interesting and competitively priced alternative.


----------



## MWJB

Baffo said:


> People used to have *mostly flat* as it was common on high end grinders, then Niche came around and people started to divide into factions. "Those who still want flat flavour profiles", "Those who slightly prefer flats but buy Niche cause it's great value", "those who can't tell the difference", "those who love the conical flavour profiles".
> 
> I think that most people will just adhere to the opinion that fits the grinder they currently have or will buy.


 The flat v conical debate existed long before Niche. Hemro (Mahlkonig, Ditting) make flat grinders, most other manufacturers make both. At one time Roburs & Compak K10s were all the rage.

The best thing about Niche (or any other single dose grinder, with good dose consistency) is that you put your beans in, grind & brew (if you're really pedantic and want unnecessary precision, you chuck another bean, or two in & check weight). You don't really think about grinding/the grinder once set, you just get on with it. In the past, grinders with more convoluted grind paths made you feel more like a 'grinder caretaker', with purging, sweeping & blowing out trapped grinds


----------



## ajohn

The commercial reasons for conical are preserving the coffee. Aroma and taste may well be mentioned. It can crop up on flat as well. Mazzer Mini 64mm burrs but a lower grinding rate than a Super Jolly. Many reckon the Super Jolly is amongst the best.

Conical get huge due to grinding rates. A 100mm flat might dose a portafilter in a very short time. Conical gets bigger and bigger to match that. Maybe they haven't matched a fast 100mm flat but then some 100mm flats run slower than others. Down to burr design they might still chuck out the same rate of grinds.


----------



## 27852

Perfect is the enemy of good.

For my own sanity I always remind myself is that perfection is impossible. There are simply too many confounding factors to allow me to truly optimise my result, the primary one being that the properties of the coffee you are working with is forever changing. As @ajohn mentioned we are forever iterating around a set of parameters that disturbs the equilibrium of the system. We may be able to operate in a tighter range but as you get closer to the "optimal result" the higher the chance of a small shift taking you relatively further away from it. Even if your grinder is dead on consistent the properties of the coffee isn't and it's up to the user to decide when that is substantial enough to warrant adjustment to grind parameters.

A grinder can be optimised for a given use case but the idea of a "best result" is an unquantifiable abstraction. The best you can do is rely on the anecdotal evidence of a big user group who are (hopefully) using the equipment in the same way that you intend to over time. On that basis, although this grinder looks interesting it would take a lot to unseat the Niche.

Having said that, if anyone is looking to get rid of their Niche in favour of this grinder I'm happy to take it off your hands!


----------



## ajohn

LOL They have edited that several times especially where the grounds are shown.


----------



## 27852

ajohn said:


> LOL They have edited that several times especially where the grounds are shown.


 There is a lot of content out there detailing why someone thinks a certain mechanism yields a different result, which is different to knowing it, has this actually been tested?

What would solve this definitively would be repeated mass blind testing where the participants could reliably distinguish between flat vs conical grinding. That would be one part of the story. The trickier question would be what tastes better - I think that result would be inconclusive.


----------



## MWJB

Kjk said:


> There is a lot of content out there detailing why someone thinks a certain mechanism yields a different result, which is different to knowing it, has this actually been tested?
> 
> What would solve this definitively would be repeated mass blind testing where the participants could reliably distinguish between flat vs conical grinding. That would be one part of the story. The trickier question would be what tastes better - I think that result would be inconclusive.


 This has only been tested by the SCA with brewed coffee, not espresso - no one, out of 160 coffee pros, could tell the difference. But, once people were aware of the difference they could assign some differences in attributes (more acidity to conicals, drier flavours to flats).

Some of the sifting results for brewed coffee grinds does show that some flats do produce a tighter particle distribution, but not all.

Who would pay for repeated mass blind tasting of neat espresso amongst consumers, you might be lucky to get 10 or 15 people off the street each day. Add in people who might think to attribute a difference to flat v conical and you might be down to a handful a day. Add in a selection of each type of grinder at different price points, to ensure a representative sample...it becomes a long job.

Does that mean that there is no difference? No, it might just mean that differences are specific to certain situations.

What would the manufacturers do with this info? Well, most would offer both & let you pick your preference. Others might make a product with specific goals in mind that, for some reason, favour one burr over the other for reasons other than particle distribution. And then, someone else might spot a gap in the market to cater for those who want a different burr option...as we see here.


----------



## 27852

MWJB said:


> This has only been tested by the SCA with brewed coffee, not espresso - no one, out of 160 coffee pros, could tell the difference. But, once people were aware of the difference they could assign some differences in attributes.


 I think that's all I need to know. If it is indistinguishable to a pro until they are told the grind method (and crossing into the realm of explaining their beliefs) then most end consumers would be unable to tell a difference.

Simply put, it's about choosing the grinder that best matches your objectives, if burr shape is a preference then consider it, but there are probably more impactful variables to quality.


----------



## ajohn

Kjk said:


> There is a lot of content out there detailing why someone thinks a certain mechanism yields a different result, which is different to knowing it, has this actually been tested?


 Yes and it has been tested beyond doubt by people who use them and pick a certain type and even make. You may as well accept that as fact but not oh I have bought a new grinder X and it's better. That area is dubious if new.

Where things get difficult is that it's "better" in terms of what bean they choose to drink and what prep they use and just what they happen to like. I've bought beans that people have mentioned and wouldn't buy them again what ever grinder they were ground in. The tastes they provide don't do much for me but clearly do for them. This is not a case of being too bitter etc it's purely tastes. Too bitter doesn't seem to be a problem for me what ever grinder I have used. It's what dose and tuning are for. A different grinder might alter the balance but that's about it. Dose can too. Both options probably needing different tunings.

Machines can make a difference as well. Not just temperature but style of pre infusion, how long it lasts, or lack of it. Brew pressure too. Some machines come with different sized baskets than others.


----------



## 27852

ajohn said:


> Yes and it has been tested beyond doubt by people who use them and pick a certain type and even make. You may as well accept that as fact but not oh I have bought a new grinder X and it's better. That area is dubious if new.


 I don't think that meets the bar of an empirical test. The only conclusion you can draw from those observations is that people buy grinders that have conical or flat burrs, and are able to indicate a preference between the two. However the results are tainted because those individuals have stated a preference (they think rather than know one is better than the other).

But a seminal artist of their time once said "If it makes you happy, it can't be that bad"!


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

You guys are going way off-topic here, This post is to discuss this new grinder updates and tests, not debate about flat vs conical.


----------



## Cooffe

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> You guys are going way off-topic here, This post is to discuss this new grinder updates and tests, not debate about flat vs conical.


 I agree. @DavecUK don't you think it was time that this thread was tidied up? Can't see the wood for the trees here!


----------



## MWJB

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> You guys are going way off-topic here, This post is to discuss this new grinder updates and tests, not debate about flat vs conical.


 Not at all, the natural, practical & price, competitor to the DF64 is the conical equipped Niche, the DF64 also represents a flat option too, so discussions on the differences are not unexpected.

The thread is about the DF64 & it was the first dedicated thread to do so. It's not clear that the discussion is limited to tests, or updates specifically.

That said, flat v conical isn't likely to be settled here anytime soon (if it even needs to be).


----------



## Ando

@CoffeeAndCigarettes A brand new account that has commented within a minute of account opening, calling for a pretty useful (IMO) thread to be deleted. 🧐🙄


----------



## ajohn

Ando said:


> @CoffeeAndCigarettes A brand new account that has commented within a minute of account opening, calling for a pretty useful (IMO) thread to be deleted. 🧐🙄


 The only thing of interest about grinders is how they are used, how they compare with others and the taste they produce. Omit that and all a post would need is a photo of it and the spec to which people could say Oh that looks good, it grinds at some rate and etc end of and no need for any discussions at all.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Ando said:


> @CoffeeAndCigarettes A brand new account that has commented within a minute of account opening, calling for a pretty useful (IMO) thread to be deleted. 🧐🙄


 Not asking for it to be deleted, but I did create an account to reply because I am very interested in this specific grinder, and I have been trying to filter the info that is actually about the DF64 amongst posts that are debating burr shapes and size.

@DavecUK left out the whole conical/flat debate from his first replies for a reason. This is an age old debate that will never be settled, and is better discussed in specific topics.


----------



## cuprajake

next grinder i get is going to have circular burrs

we can only speculate till some guinea pig person buys the grinder


----------



## Baffo

@Cuprajake from what I read elsewhere some people already have, and they seem to like it. I doubt that anybody on this forum will have it anytime soon (latest comm from BB was "we hope for April launch"...) unless they purchase from that Belgian website.

From what I can see, they have now jacked the prices on Alibaba, it's 400$ even if you buy 30+ units. I suppose there was an active request from some reseller to discourage people buying direct.


----------



## profesor_historia

Cooffe said:


> I agree. @DavecUK don't you think it was time that this thread was tidied up? Can't see the wood for the trees here!


I think this is the second time you don't like a thread and try to kill it .


----------



## profesor_historia

New video:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/index.html


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> From what I can see, they have now jacked the prices on Alibaba, it's 400$ even if you buy 30+ units. I suppose there was an active request from some reseller to discourage people buying direct.


 That's a bit of a shame


----------



## cuprajake

Looks good tbh.


----------



## Rincewind

Baffo said:


> they have now jacked the prices on Alibaba, it's 400$ even if you buy 30+ units. I suppose there was an active request from some reseller to discourage people buying direct.


 I wonder who the jealous reseller was :classic_rolleyes:


----------



## DavecUK

Cooffe said:


> I agree. @DavecUK don't you think it was time that this thread was tidied up? Can't see the wood for the trees here!


 I'm good with it TBH...interesting discussion and one I've been following closely. Sure threads sometimes wander from time to time...but it seems generally on topic and certainly an interesting read 👍


----------



## Baffo

> 2 hours ago, profesor_historia said:
> 
> New video:


 It does not look half bad, honestly. Just needs a replacement for the horrible glass.


----------



## Dallah

Am I the only person that thinks it makes the Niche Zero a looker?


----------



## Rincewind

@profesor_historia Thanks for the video, i like the Red one (normally i'm biased to Black) that plastic cup looks shite, but as david said just replace it with a metal one from Amazon for a fiver.

interesting days ahead....good...as more choice.....hopefully more manufacturers will come up with a SD version and not cost the earth so to speak.


----------



## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> It does not look half bad, honestly. Just needs a replacement for the horrible glass.


 Oh...going to disappoint you now....it's plastic


----------



## Aidy

Dallah said:


> Am I the only person that thinks it makes the Niche Zero a looker?


 I kinda hate the fake carbon fibre. Better as plain black.


----------



## profesor_historia

Baffo said:


> It does not look half bad, honestly. Just needs a replacement for the horrible glass.


The Niche cup would be a perfect fit .


----------



## Dallah

profesor_historia said:


> The Niche cup would be a perfect fit   .


 Yeah but then you'd have to wait until April before it shipped and find someone to buy the butt ugly grinder off you. ????


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator

Dallah said:


> Am I the only person that thinks it makes the Niche Zero a looker?


 Agreed.

I hate the location of the switch. Hardly ergonomic.

Also, does it really need to hands to turn the dial? Seems odd.

It is good/ nice to see more affordable SD grinders come to market. Competition is good, not just for price but innovation to.

Hopefully better ways to clear the chamber/ chute than a blower for one.


----------



## jonr2

on the basis that this has taken inspiration? from the Lagom grinder - what do Lagom do to mean that they dont need the bellows on the top - is it build 'just' better build quality


----------



## MWJB

Rincewind said:


> I wonder who the jealous reseller was :classic_rolleyes:


 Probably all of them in the EU/US and other markets. Things are frequently priced according to market, even within the UK.

I remember going drinking with a couple of pals from Leeds Yorks., in Kent in the 90's. They ordered 2 bottles of Holsten Pils in a pint glass each & our eyes widened. Must be made of money we thought. They explained they drink it all the time at home, landlord charged them £5 each...then their eyes widened!


----------



## cuprajake

For £1500 youd expect it to be better,. It prob has a sweeper pulling beans i. Plus its on more of a slope


----------



## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> Oh...going to disappoint you now....it's plastic


 Ah no i meant glass (noun), as in "glass of water". Yes I know that "cup" would've been the better word for it.

But yes all the more reason to change that thing!


----------



## 27852

MWJB said:


> Probably all of them in the EU/US and other markets. Things are frequently priced according to market, even within the UK.
> 
> I remember going drinking with a couple of pals from Leeds Yorks., in Kent in the 90's. They ordered 2 bottles of Holsten Pils in a pint glass each & our eyes widened. Must be made of money we thought. They explained they drink it all the time at home, landlord charged them £5 each...then their eyes widened! 🙂


 Yup, price sometimes bears no relation to cost! Seems like they didn't anticipate some clever sleuths tracking them down for a direct sale and now have repriced accordingly.


----------



## Baffo

Get the DF64/G-Iota in black, replace the cup for a metal one and it will be already 95% of looking like a slightly lesser attractive cousin of the Lagom..

Probably would also benefit from a decent powder coating rather than having a film.


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Get the DF64/G-Iota in black, replace the cup for a metal one and it will be already 95% of looking like a slightly lesser attractive cousin of the Lagom..
> 
> Probably would also benefit from a decent powder coating rather than having a film.


 are you sold on it or still debating vs Niche (or something else?)


----------



## Baffo

jonr2 said:


> are you sold on it or still debating vs Niche (or something else?)


 Tricky. I am an espresso newbie who will have the most stupidly expensive starter setup ever. Which means, I don't have a clue on the conical vs flat debate, and I do not know who to trust. For sure I can't draw on my own experience, and I can't even say whether I will like very light roasts (which according to hearsay is where a flat burr would shine). So basically I have very limited information to decide on. Which is something I hate, I like to research before I buy and here research is no use, it's all about personal preference, confirmation bias and legendary tales.

If I had the Niche already I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having this new grinder, I'm sure that both the Niche and the G-dawg (this is how I will call it from now on) are good.. So perhaps I'm overthinking this.


----------



## cuprajake

If it were my first grinder setup id not go for a brand new un tested machine.

Id go for something with a proven track record, be it niche or something else.

Fwiw if you can taste the difference between a flat and a conical then youre in the top 10% of the worlds coffee drinkers.

As you say dont loose any sleep over it.

Being Italian, id say your preference would be med to dark initially.


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Tricky. I am an espresso newbie who will have the most stupidly expensive starter setup ever. Which means, I don't have a clue on the conical vs flat debate, and I do not know who to trust. For sure I can't draw on my own experience, and I can't even say whether I will like very light roasts (which according to hearsay is where a flat burr would shine). So basically I have very limited information to decide on. Which is something I hate, I like to research before I buy and here research is no use, it's all about personal preference, confirmation bias and legendary tales.
> 
> If I had the Niche already I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having this new grinder, I'm sure that both the Niche and the G-dawg (this is how I will call it from now on) are good.. So perhaps I'm overthinking this.


 yep - in the same position.

started at the start of the year with a bambino and multi-purpose grinder - now waiting for a Bianca and thought i had decided on a niche when next available but now i dont know again!

good luck whatever you decide!


----------



## MWJB

Baffo said:


> If I had the Niche already I wouldn't lose any sleep over not having this new grinder, I'm sure that both the Niche and the G-dawg (this is how I will call it from now on) are good.. So perhaps I'm overthinking this.


 Maybe a little. Both conicals & flats 'work'. Either grinder should be easy enough to sell on.

They both do what they do, you're job is really to set the grind, which works the same way for any grinder.

Which do you prefer in terms of looks?


----------



## Baffo

MWJB said:


> Maybe a little. Both conicals & flats 'work'. Either grinder should be easy enough to sell on.
> 
> They both do what they do, you're job is really to set the grind, which works the same way for any grinder.
> 
> Which do you prefer in terms of looks?


 Well the Niche, but ultimately I like both, and due to BB machine+grinder discount which they kindly granted, I'd pay the G-dawg some £150+ less than the Niche.. You can see my problem here!



Cuprajake said:


> If it were my first grinder setup id not go for a brand new un tested machine.
> 
> Id go for something with a proven track record, be it niche or something else.
> 
> Fwiw if you can taste the difference between a flat and a conical then youre in the top 10% of the worlds coffee drinkers.
> 
> As you say dont loose any sleep over it.
> 
> Being Italian, id say your preference would be med to dark initially.


 I would guess you're 100% right. But we've learned I know how to ignore all sensible advice.



jonr2 said:


> yep - in the same position.
> 
> started at the start of the year with a bambino and multi-purpose grinder - now waiting for a Bianca and thought i had decided on a niche when next available but now i dont know again!
> 
> good luck whatever you decide!


 We might have a very similar setup. Do let me know if you make a decision on the grinder!


----------



## jonr2

@Baffowill do


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Am I really the only one liking the plastic dosing cup?

This seems so much more functional. If I still see some grounds on the cup, I tap it a bit more. If the grounds are uneven on the PF, I shake it to even it.

I've seen some people complaining about the steel Niche cup that there were often grounds still stuck in it afterwards, this transparent one solves it for me


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Am I really the only one liking the plastic dosing cup?


 Personally... I'd grind straight into the PF. I do the same with the Niche.


----------



## Nightrider_1uk

Aidy said:


> Hmm... The Alibaba thing does claim to have CE certification though, so perhaps it wouldn't be too annoying to import...


 CE certification... You mean China Export certification. 🤣


----------



## Dallah

Have you seen the price of the Niche Zero on Ali Express?

I could tell you but it's more fun to surprise you.

https://a.aliexpress.com/_mKb0O6F


----------



## Baffo

Dallah said:


> Have you seen the price of the Niche Zero on Ali Express?
> 
> I could tell you but it's more fun to surprise you.
> 
> https://a.aliexpress.com/_mKb0O6F


 Still cheaper than on eBay eh


----------



## Nightrider_1uk

HVL87 said:


> ..I might pre-order a Niche, as buying the "DS64" is a bit of a punt at the moment.


 from where? no pre orders available for any country atm,


----------



## HVL87

Nightrider_1uk said:


> from where? no pre orders available for any country atm,


 Next delivery will be April so I'm assuming it won't be long..if you sign up to the newsletter they'll inform you when the pre-order opens.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Personally... I'd grind straight into the PF. I do the same with the Niche.


 I grind straight into the portafilter with it.


----------



## Rincewind

Baffo said:


> So basically I have very limited information to decide on. Which is something I hate, I like to research before I buy and here research is no use, it's all about personal preference, confirmation bias and legendary tales.


 FWIW i think there is a wealth of good information on here regarding both machines and grinders....it's good that you are doing your own research (as i did) but *you just have to look at the facts/specs/price* (not personal opinions) of machine/grinder and *decide which comes closest to YOUR initial requirements/budget*....if two items are very closely matched then that's a harder decision to make...toss a coin and live with it....you can always sell it on later; plenty of peeps on here ready to snap up a bargain.

Again my research (2-3 months) didn't just stick to this one forum; i looked at others, read articles and watched squillions of YT video's.

When i'd narrowed down my choice (*i didn't ask for recommendations*) i just bit the bullet and whipped out the plastic, knowing if i'd got it wrong/wasn't happy then at least i'd only lose a small sum by selling them on....turns out i didn't need to...i.e. my choice was right for me 1st time....YMMV...good luck either way.


----------



## profesor_historia

Rincewind said:


> FWIW i think there is a wealth of good information on here regarding both machines and grinders....it's good that you are doing your own research (as i did) but *you just have to look at the facts/specs/price* (not personal opinions) of machine/grinder and *decide which comes closest to YOUR initial requirements/budget*....if two items are very closely matched then that's a harder decision to make...toss a coin and live with it....you can always sell it on later; plenty of peeps on here ready to snap up a bargain.
> Again my research (2-3 months) didn't just stick to this one forum; i looked at others, read articles and watched squillions of YT video's.
> When i'd narrowed down my choice (*i didn't ask for recommendations*) i just bit the bullet and whipped out the plastic, knowing if i'd got it wrong/wasn't happy then at least i'd only lose a small sum by selling them on....turns out i didn't need to...i.e. my choice was right for me 1st time....YMMV...good luck either way.


I have always bought second hand grinders and only when I found smoking deals. Unbelievable for some but for example I had bought a Major E for 65€, before that I had bought SJ for 50€ etc. The risk is minim. Mi advice would be don't buy a new grinder, there are plenty of options second hand. And if you do want to buy new buy something already tested and tried. Buy a Niche for example, you cannot go wrong.


----------



## naturalganja

Northern_Monkey said:


> Pretty accurate, maybe tighter clearance on the sweeper vanes and marginally less dead spots under the carrier.
> 
> More plastic than the Mazzers, especially on the adjustment collar. With the floating three spring top burr carrier it also means it won't ever be super aligned. People questioned the difference fancy burrs would make on a SJ.
> 
> Not 100% convinced it adds a lot more than a SJ or Major with a Daniel Wong kit tbh. Cheaper mind, but arguably looks wise more divisive than the Niche, made me think of a metal bathroom pedal bin! 😂


 I'm just trying to understand what you're saying about the carrier, could you explain a little more in depth? Which one has the 3 springs? Is this unique to this grinder?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

ajohn said:


> The reason for retention is where the grinds sweepers are. Around the edge on flat and under the burrs on conical. The difference in the amount held really relates to when the hopper is on. Niche uses conical and the sweeper is similar but it sweeps the lot out. Sage is different. Short path out, different style of sweeper and a short path out with little restriction. Other small conicals may be the same to some extent,
> 
> It gets "worse". Taking Mazzer as an example. The path from burrs to the "way out" is fairly long and has a grid over it in both cases. This holds back the grinds so the lot remains full of grinds when the hopper is on. This compresses them to some extent. So say a home user is using it like this. Overnight the usual term used is the grinds go stale so first time it's used next day the grinder is purged of yesterdays grinds. More wasted on conical than flat.
> 
> The fact that the grinds are compressed means they exit it burrs at a different rate so when the grid is removed and it's used for weighing in a different grinder setting is needed to "obtain the same ratio" compared with hopper on. Finer but retention then may be no different on either type.
> 
> Another effect is breaking beans up to grind them. Flat uses centrifugal force bouncing the beans about. A weight of beans on top tends to keep them down in the burrs when the hopper is in use. Grinds continuously being forced through the burrs is what mostly causes them to come out. Some people have added tube to larger grinders to reduce the capacity of the hopper and then added a weight on top of the bean to make up for the lower total bean weight.
> 
> So convert flat to weighing in. If the top is open little bits of beans can be found feet from the grinder. Any tube type arrangement added gets coated with them. And the grinder will need setting finer.
> 
> Conical are distinctly different. Once a piece of bean is in them a sort of corkscrew action cause the grinds to emerge at the bottom. Essentially the don't need the weight of beans over them.  Then people worry about popcorning on them causing some effect so a little disk with slot at the edge has been added above the burrs. Niche. Some have reported a finer grind being needed after this has been fitted. Some have found no change. Different grind rates could be a cause of the difference.
> 
> All rather simply put and grinders differ but some grinds compression is a general feature of all doserless hopper grinders. Just different ways of achieving it. Big conicals came about to get the grind rates up for commercial use. This is also an attraction on flats. A single grinder can do more cups per hour the faster it grinds. It needs more power so prices go up.
> 
> Taste in the cup ? Just about anything done to grinds can change that. What's good or bad is subjective.


 Very educative for a newbie like us. 👍


----------



## Northern_Monkey

naturalganja said:


> I'm just trying to understand what you're saying about the carrier, could you explain a little more in depth? Which one has the 3 springs? Is this unique to this grinder?


 Hi, have a look at the pics in this thread and it should be clearer. It's a pretty common design for a lot of both home and professional grinders.

The upper burr is mounted onto a carrier which rests on the three springs, the adjustment collar presses the carrier down and this is resisted by the springs. Since the upper carrier can move around a bit in theory with the beans etc., people were questioning the cost/benefit of fitting super fancy precise burrs in a system which it is not fixed.

I had a SJ and have a soft spot for the Mazzers, don't think I would have gotten red speed burrs for it though.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/31160-mazzer-super-jolly-burrs-far-apart/?do=embed


----------



## profesor_historia

Northern_Monkey said:


> Hi, have a look at the pics in this thread and it should be clearer. It's a pretty common design for a lot of both home and professional grinders.
> The upper burr is mounted onto a carrier which rests on the three springs, the adjustment collar presses the carrier down and this is resisted by the springs. Since the upper carrier can move around a bit in theory with the beans etc., people were questioning the cost/benefit of fitting super fancy precise burrs in a system which it is not fixed.
> I had a SJ and have a soft spot for the Mazzers, don't think I would have gotten red speed burrs for it though.


I have the sensation that this grinder came out of nowhere, I still don't know yet who builds it . It looks very good, maybe too good. And the SSP burrs, do they really make a difference for a home user? I mean, what difference (s) should I notice with or without them?


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@profesor_historia - Maybe a few seconds off the grind time and better mouth feel/flavour separation? I haven't seen the extraction numbers, or a comparison of the particle distributions/sift results from a quick online search, not saying it hasn't been done though.

People do like them, but your mileage may vary.


----------



## Baffo

Rincewind said:


> *decide which comes closest to YOUR initial requirements/budget*....i


 Funny you should say that. My initial budget is definitely not something I'd use as a reference, otherwise I should just keep my hand grinder. 🤣

Anyway, as this is not a thread for me to ask for advice I will keep it on topic, without getting too much into the discussion as to which should I buy myself.

Spec-wise these two grinders aren't miles apart. Aside from the burr shape, the size of them isn't that different, slightly bigger on the G-Dawg. The Niche is surely more refined in its look, but again, form factor and size are not miles apart. The Niche is also a "sure" bet, whilst the G-Dawg is more of a punt. The (very rhetorical) question is, is a £100-150 saving worth it? More research will be done today on the matter.

One of my key limits on the matter is that I don't really understand what's inside a grinder, other than a motor and two sets of burrs. Among the things I will research today is whether maintenance / alignment / adjustment is different between flat vs conical. Among the questions I'd like to know is, are flats (and this G-Dawg in particular) more prone to misalignment issues and how easily would these be fixed?


----------



## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> I grind straight into the portafilter with it.


 Dave, did you find it to be messy when "bellowing" the residual grounds onto the pf? From the video I've seen you used a pretty tall funnel which is probably very handy at mitigating the issue. Have you ever tried without, and/or directly into the cup?


----------



## DavecUK

Without a funnel it can be a tad messy when you pump, if you allow the peak to get a bit tall.

Directly into a grind cup in is fine, I use a metal one


----------



## HVL87

I just heard from BB, pre-order now live. £399 and arriving end of March.

2 year back to base warranty.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/the-solo-single-dose-grinder.html


----------



## Baffo

I can't unsee a carbon-fibre duck carrying a glass wearing a top hat


----------



## profesor_historia

Baffo said:


> I can't unsee a carbon-fibre duck carrying a glass wearing a top hat
> 
> <img alt="image.png.dc93ffd2109220b892b98c6e69ba39b4.png" data-fileid="53617" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_02/image.png.dc93ffd2109220b892b98c6e69ba39b4.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


And waiting for a donation in front of a church .


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Where's that laughing (hahah) like emoji!!!! 😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Baffo

Seriously though, wasn't there also a black version of the duck.. I mean, grinder?

I wonder why they only picked the carbon fibre version for this first batch. I am not really sold on the carbon fibre film, even less so than the white. Would perhaps suit a Decent, with its modern, racing, cool, bling, sporty attire.

Yes, aesthetics are silly. But I'd rather have a classic-looking duck next to the machine.


----------



## HVL87

Baffo said:


> Seriously though, wasn't there also a black version of the duck.. I mean, grinder?
> 
> I wonder why they only picked the carbon fibre version for this first batch. I am not really sold on the carbon fibre film, even less so than the white. Would perhaps suit a Decent, with its modern, racing, cool, bling, sporty attire.
> 
> Yes, aesthetics are silly. But I'd rather have a classic-looking duck next to the machine.


 I was previously told it's the OEM version. If it sells well they will order different colours in the second batch. I had asked about a black version.

I don't think aesthetics are silly to be honest. Valid consideration.


----------



## HVL87

Apparently the Solo is still being shipped to BB end of Feb, so may arrive earlier.


----------



## Mrboots2u

random thoughts

Alignment will impact on flat burr grinders more than conical .

burrs size - think about which has the bigger cutting surface area.

flat v conical , lots of things come into this , burrs geometry etc, but not all flat burr grinders are de facto better than conical ones and not all big conical grinders are better than small flats.

People will want to grind straight into the pf , the niche is good at thIs with holder .

this grinder tho is cheaper , and potentially more readily available , key will be how good are its manufacturing tolerances .

no reason why it shouldn't make good coffee, ssp burr options make it interesting but more costly

design wise it's marmite like the niche ,


----------



## 27852

Baffo said:


> The (very rhetorical) question is, is a £100-150 saving worth it? More research will be done today on the matter.


 I'd be very tempted with that level of discount, you'd have to think how far away your secondhand sale price would be from entry price.

Also, disappointed that they have called it the Solo and not G-Dawg - someone needs to have a word with BB marketing.


----------



## Baffo

Kjk said:


> I'd be very tempted with that level of discount, you'd have to think how far away your secondhand sale price would be from entry price.
> 
> Also, disappointed that they have called it the Solo and not G-Dawg - someone needs to have a word with BB marketing.


 I'd consider it, had they not just ordered the carbon fibre penguin.

(sorry guys, upon closer inspection it's a penguin, rather than a duck)

One thing that I'm not clear on is the declared 1g exchange. Is this without using the bellows, or?


----------



## MWJB

Baffo said:


> One thing that I'm not clear on is the declared 1g exchange. Is this without using the bellows, or?


 1g exchange sounds an awful lot for this kind of grinder. Where was this declared?


----------



## jonr2

MWJB said:


> 1g exchange sounds an awful lot for this kind of grinder. Where was this declared?


 blurb on website:

After extensive research to find a single dose grinder that offers stepless adjustment, low retention and at such an affordable price... We think The Solo Espresso Grinder is the answer!

Our first delivery is arriving at the end of March (customs permitting) and pre-orders now being taken.

The Solo has 64mm flat Italmill hardened steel burrs as standard, the retention figures we obtained are very low with total complete exchange at around 1 gram. The Solo comes with a transparent cup which fits exactly into a 58mm portafilter handle avoiding any spillage, the solo will also hold a portafilter handle hands free.

EASY TO USE:-

Large adjustment dial, it makes it easy to go from the fine to coarse settings.

Top burr can be removed without tools for exchange clean, although with such a low retention, this is not necessary.

The bellows make sure any remaining coffee grounds are extracted from the grinder.

Although principally a single dose grinder the Solo can accommodate enough beans to do approximately six 10 gram shots.

Features

Single Dose

Stepless Adjustment

Low retention

Average Variation 0.3grams

Exchange 1.02grams

Time to grind fine 18gramps - 14 seconds

Decibels @ 30cms 83 (grinding)/li>

Capacity for more than a single dose in the chamber. 30 Grams.

Porta Filter Holder

Comes with additional Dosing Holder

Specification

Aluminium Body with Carbon look Wrap

Motor: 250w

RPM: 1400

Height (mm): 300

Width (mm):130

Depth (mm):225

Power (W):250

Color:Black

Bean Hopper Capacity (Gr.):30

Capacity of blowing hopper (Gr.):50

Type of blades:Italmill 64 mm flat grinding discs

Diameter of the blades (mm):64

Warranty: Bella Barista 2 Year Back to Base

Weight:8.00 kg


----------



## Baffo

MWJB said:


> 1g exchange sounds an awful lot for this kind of grinder. Where was this declared?



View attachment 53625


----------



## Baffo

If this is measured "including bellow puffs" I'd say that it's more a good option for people who want to single dose and were looking at a Specialita, rather than the Niche. Still a welcome addition eh.


----------



## Dallah

Baffo said:


> If this is measured "including bellow puffs" I'd say that it's more a good option for people who want to single dose and were looking at a Specialita, rather than the Niche. Still a welcome addition eh.


 @Baffo How so? Aren't the Specialita and the Niche comparable in stature? I think it's about 4 cm difference between the two.


----------



## Baffo

Dallah said:


> @Baffo How so? Aren't the Specialita and the Niche comparable in stature? I think it's about 4 cm difference between the two.


 The Niche offers extremely low exchange. Low retention in itself does not imply low exchange, and - at least for me - is a rather uninformative metric.

Depending on how the 1g exchange has been measured, it could mean that despite the bellows, it just isn't that great at "being a Niche".

Perhaps Mark @MWJB can validate or not..

Edit: I now realise you were probably just being sarcastic lol


----------



## Ando

Do we think this grinder will sell for double the retail price on eBay, like the Niche? Asking for a friend obvs..


----------



## MWJB

Baffo said:


> The Niche offers extremely low exchange. Low retention in itself does not imply low exchange, and - at least for me - is a rather uninformative metric.
> 
> Depending on how the 1g exchange has been measure, it could mean that despite the bellows, it just isn't that great at "being a Niche".
> 
> Perhaps Mark @MWJB can validate or not..
> 
> Edit: I now realise you were probably just being sarcastic lol


 Total retention is what is trapped in the grinder after use. Original post seemed to claim 0.7g?

Exchange can't be more than retention, otherwise the grinder is importing it's own coffee from somewhere 

I'd be more focussed on dose consistency, if this is 0.2 or 0.3g as claimed (to 1stdev?), I wouldn't be concerned, at worst chuck a few beans in for a little purge,1st thing each day.


----------



## DavecUK

MWJB said:


> 1g exchange sounds an awful lot for this kind of grinder. Where was this declared?


 Yeah...it's not what I found... I found things very comparable to the Niche on dose consistency, retention and exchange.

Perhaps slightly higher on total retention, but similar on exchange. For those who want an alternative that's a flat burr, then I think they have it.


----------



## Baffo

@Ando there's 100 units available. There's three conditions that I see as necessary for eBay price gouging:

- these 100 units fly off the shelf

- there's a high amount of praise among users

- restocking is slow

As of now, none of the three conditions has materialised..


----------



## Dallah

Baffo said:


> The Niche offers extremely low exchange. Low retention in itself does not imply low exchange, and - at least for me - is a rather uninformative metric.
> 
> Depending on how the 1g exchange has been measured, it could mean that despite the bellows, it just isn't that great at "being a Niche".
> 
> Perhaps Mark @MWJB can validate or not..
> 
> Edit: I now realise you were probably just being sarcastic lol


 @Baffo No sarcasm. I thought you meant the height including the height of the bellow. I didn't get you were questioning the functional aspect of the bellows. In which case I totally agree with you. I think this grinder is just commercialising the work arounds people have to make existing grinders into single dosing as opposed to the Niche which is a true single dosing grinder in my mind.


----------



## HVL87

BB let me know they are providing a discount for coffeeforums members, details below for £20 off.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/58349-the-solo-single-dose-grinder-%C2%A320-off-at-bella-barista/?do=embed


----------



## DavecUK

I can't keep up


----------



## HVL87

DavecUK said:


> I can't keep up


 ????????


----------



## Bicky

I'm kind of tempted to give it a go, but the more I look, the uglier it gets! Particularly in that carbon fibre look 😩

Is there a reference point for the adjustment ring? I can't see any from the photos.


----------



## DavecUK

Bicky said:


> I'm kind of tempted to give it a go, but the more I look, the uglier it gets! Particularly in that carbon fibre look 😩
> 
> Is there a reference point for the adjustment ring? I can't see any from the photos.


 There is a coffee bean relief (that's the grind point indicator) in the black plastic...blends in nicely, so I painted mine white with a chalk pen. It's in the photos, although you might have thought it was purely decorative.


----------



## jonr2

yeah pretty hard to see in black


----------



## ajohn

Can the dial be zeroed or is it fixed?


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> Can the dial be zeroed or is it fixed?


 I guess you could try and unstick the metal bit, try not to damage it, then re-glue it. Really doesn't matter though...would have been nice if it was moveable...but you can't have everything. 🤣


----------



## ajohn

I wondered in case other makes of burr could be fitted to it.


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> I wondered in case other makes of burr could be fitted to it.


 I got some new Mazzer Mini E Burrs, packs open, I will hold them up to the TiN coated Burrs I also have for it before fitting them and see if they will fit. I'll also check the TiN coated against the existing burrs (which have been abused a bit...not by me), for cut and design.


----------



## Chriss29

I'm intrigued by this grinder but my oh my is it fugly. I should think Niche are very relieved at what they've seen so far but the if the reviews are good folk will get over the looks, especially if it's more readily available.


----------



## Aidy

I don't really think it's *that* bad looking, but I do wish it was plain black rather than fake CF. I mean; who has CF things in their kitchen anyway?


----------



## Rincewind

Just did a Google (other search engines are available) search for the G-IOTA when i noticed *my name* in said search results...was shocked; based on how search engines work/show results i deduced most must have looked at my profile offline or guests (when looking at the grinder link/post) as when i look at my profile when logged in it's only a few in the past day or so, not enough to appear in a major search engine results....strange how i'm tagged with this grinder....i don't know wether to be happy or scared lol :classic_smile: :classic_unsure:


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> I can't unsee a carbon-fibre duck carrying a glass wearing a top hat


 Entirely thanks to you, it's going to be forever stuck in my head as the G-duck.


----------



## DavecUK

@Rincewind Well, all least all the blame for any problems will come your way 🤣


----------



## Rincewind

@DavecUK Yepp that's exactly what i DIDN'T want lol


----------



## DavecUK

@Rincewind well SEO goes against who had the highest hits, presumably you must have mentioned it a lot? 😁


----------



## Baffo

Aidy said:


> I don't really think it's *that* bad looking, but I do wish it was plain black rather than fake CF. I mean; who has CF things in their kitchen anyway?


 I agree. Most have classic looking espresso machines, stainless steel, wood, retro vibes.. And then you stick an item next to it that looks like it belongs to an F1 engine. No thanks. Black, yes, white, yes. Other colours, possibly. Carbon fibre doesn't belong in a coffee corner..


----------



## DavecUK

Ah lifes unfair...it should have been Baffo or Aidy


----------



## Rincewind

DavecUK said:


> @Rincewind well SEO goes against who had the highest hits, presumably you must have mentioned it a lot? 😁


 TBF i reckon Baffo and a few others must've mentioned it more than i have.....the ganja under my name didn't please me....but i know that's just the search engines results. Strange what folk look at lol


----------



## Aidy

DavecUK said:


> Ah lifes unfair...it should have been Baffo or Aidy


 Not sure if I should post more to "win" or less because I don't want to be stuck holding the ball.


----------



## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> Ah lifes unfair...it should have been Baffo or Aidy
> 
> 
> View attachment 53636


 I'm not a high profile member, clearly Google went for a big shot @Rincewind


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> I agree. Most have classic looking espresso machines, stainless steel, wood, retro vibes.. And then you stick an item that looks like it belongs to an F1 engine.


 Less F1, more boy racer halfords special.


----------



## DavecUK

Did you pick a popular username perchance....

Now I'm going to be sneaky here and not up my post count, but I'll give @Rincewinda heads up, which also tags him in my post, and he has just made and extra post. I will sneakily keep all my responses in this particular post and keep my post count low, while @Rincewindups his.

🤣


----------



## Rincewind

Baffo said:


> I'm not a high profile member, clearly Google went for a big shot @Rincewind


 @DavecUK would win that hands down...i'm a relative newcomer to CFUK... @DavecUK is part of the furniture.

EDITED :- to show correct names and to sneakily up the SEO muhahahaha


----------



## jonr2

Aidy said:


> Less F1, more boy racer halfords special.


 🤣 - now i am imagining the duck driving a Subaru with gold wheels


----------



## Rincewind

DavecUK said:


> Did you pick a popular username perchance....


 Depends upon your reading preferences :classic_wink: ....some would recognise the name whereas others would be oblivious.


----------



## Baffo

What have I done.. Created a new brand image, destroyed Rincewind's privacy..

Another video of the G-duck is out


----------



## Rincewind

Baffo said:


> destroyed Rincewind's privacy..


 Cheers buddy....*now i can't hide any more* :classic_ninja: ...although i do have a Google *meme* thingy or whatever you call them, under a different name/thing from CFUK.


----------



## Bainbridge

Surely Niche have already been considering a flat burr version - this may best them to market but they will implement it better.

However this does provide a very competitive price point.

I'm personally looking forward to the Niche flat max in 2023


----------



## ajohn

Bainbridge said:


> I'm personally looking forward to the Niche flat max in 2023


 In the past they have stated that they wont be doing one. Maybe that has changed but I'd wonder.


----------



## Baffo

They can barely keep up with current demand (if what they do can even be called "keeping up"), unless they significantly improve their production capabilities I see very little chance they would be able to launch a new product. They might be researching one, yes. But launching one, that's a different story.


----------



## ajohn

Baffo said:


> I agree. Most have classic looking espresso machines, stainless steel, wood, retro vibes.. And then you stick an item next to it that looks like it belongs to an F1 engine. No thanks. Black, yes, white, yes. Other colours, possibly. Carbon fibre doesn't belong in a coffee corner..


  You could change the colour to what ever you like eg

https://shop.spandex.com/en_GB/materials-vehicle-wrapping-car-wrap-colour-change-wrap-films-intermediate-vehicle-wrapping-film/avery-dennison-conform-chrome-easy-apply-rs/p/j82


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> You could change the colour to what ever you like eg
> 
> https://shop.spandex.com/en_GB/materials-vehicle-wrapping-car-wrap-colour-change-wrap-films-intermediate-vehicle-wrapping-film/avery-dennison-conform-chrome-easy-apply-rs/p/j82


 It is an easy wrap shape, just a cylinder....although I have never wrapped anything...how hard can it be?










P.S. I thought 1m would be about £5, apparently not....


----------



## Baffo

ajohn said:


> You could change the colour to what ever you like eg
> 
> https://shop.spandex.com/en_GB/materials-vehicle-wrapping-car-wrap-colour-change-wrap-films-intermediate-vehicle-wrapping-film/avery-dennison-conform-chrome-easy-apply-rs/p/j82


 I would imagine removing the film, cleaning the adhesive underneath, get new film, cut it to size, wrap it again.. Not too bad of a job. But I've never done anything like this.

I'm nearly tempted but I'm indecisive by nature. Today I'm thinking "whether an xl65 wouldn't do a better job even though it's not meant to be single doser". Tomorrow I'll think about the Niche. The day after I might reconsider the G-dawg / G-duck.


----------



## Aidy

ajohn said:


> You could change the colour to what ever you like eg
> 
> https://shop.spandex.com/en_GB/materials-vehicle-wrapping-car-wrap-colour-change-wrap-films-intermediate-vehicle-wrapping-film/avery-dennison-conform-chrome-easy-apply-rs/p/j82


 I was considering that - but I'm kinda hoping that different colours come along.


----------



## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> I would imagine removing the film, cleaning the adhesive underneath, get new film, cut it to size, wrap it again.. Not too bad of a job. But I've never done anything like this.


 I thought automotive wrap didn't have adhesive, it just sort of clings on...I may be wrong of course....


----------



## Bicky

I came across another video, not sure if this one has been mentioned before.....


----------



## 27852

Baffo said:


> I would imagine removing the film, cleaning the adhesive underneath, get new film, cut it to size, wrap it again.. Not too bad of a job. But I've never done anything like this.
> 
> I'm nearly tempted but I'm indecisive by nature. Today I'm thinking "whether an xl65 wouldn't do a better job even though it's not meant to be single doser". Tomorrow I'll think about the Niche. The day after I might reconsider the G-dawg / G-duck.


 Maybe it would help if we do a YouTube video montage of everyone chanting "do it, do it, do it!" schoolyard style so we can finally have someone to be the first to take the hill.

**Disclaimer: Wild Speculation* *Considering your comment on Niche's production situation, why would the G-Pen be radically different? You'd hope the initial testing / due diligence process would have resulted in a "no go" if there was something obviously wrong. It's not too far a stretch to see yourself perfectly happy or moving on to something else by the time the 2yr warranty period expires. If this grinder is good, I can see a situation of demand outstripping supply and price convergence with the Niche... But that is from the standpoint of a dirty capitalist who is encouraging you to make a mistake so they don't have to!


----------



## Baffo

Kjk said:


> Maybe it would help if we do a YouTube video montage of everyone chanting "do it, do it, do it!" schoolyard style so we can finally have someone to be the first to take the hill.
> 
> **Disclaimer: Wild Speculation* *Considering your comment on Niche's production situation, why would the G-Pen be radically different? You'd hope the initial testing / due diligence process would have resulted in a "no go" if there was something obviously wrong. It's not too far a stretch to see yourself perfectly happy or moving on to something else by the time the 2yr warranty period expires. If this grinder is good, I can see a situation of demand outstripping supply and price convergence with the Niche... But that is from the standpoint of a dirty capitalist who is encouraging you to make a mistake so they don't have to!


 I don't want to speculate one way or the other. However, whilst it is reasonable to assume that the required due diligence has been done, unlike the Niche here we have zero insight on the development team behind this, their culture (would they fix issues, improve their product, etc) and their intentions. The grinder is called 100 different names across the world, so to me it seems that there is little interest in building a brand that will stand the test of time, otherwise the development team would have come out publicly. As far as we know, they might as well have developed this product by dissecting a Lagom (or similar) and just roughly replicating the structure. I mean, look at this peng.. picture. Anything familiar?










I don't want to crap on this product. I'm confident it could be valid. Had it been black, I might as well have pulled the trigger.

There's also the new single dosing Eureka which BB will most likely list (and probably @BlackCatCoffee but either both are being cagey or don't know yet much. I know there's a provisional launch date yet but don't know what that is..  ).

With Eureka we might get smaller burrs depending on whether it'll be in the Specialita' range (55mm) or the new Oro segment (64-65mm), in which latter cause it would cost double what the G-Peng / G-Dawg / G-Duck does.

Am I happy to pay more or settle for lower burrs, knowing that the product still falls within my budget and has been developed in-house by a competent team of people who have been making grinders since the 50s or 60s? Perhaps yes. I don't know.

I need to get my thinking hat. Like the penguin.


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> I don't want to speculate one way or the other. However, whilst it is reasonable to assume that the required due diligence has been done, unlike the Niche here we have zero insight on the development team behind this, their culture (would they fix issues, improve their product, etc) and their intentions. The grinder is called 100 different names across the world, so to me it seems that there is little interest in building a brand that will stand the test of time, otherwise the development team would have come out publicly. As far as we know, they might as well have developed this product by dissecting a Lagom (or similar) and just roughly replicating the structure. I mean, look at this peng.. picture. Anything familiar?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want to crap on this product. I'm confident it could be valid. Had it been black, I might as well have pulled the trigger.
> 
> There's also the new single dosing Eureka which BB will most likely list (and probably @BlackCatCoffee but either both are being cagey or don't know yet much. I know there's a provisional launch date yet but don't know what that is..  ).
> 
> With Eureka we might get smaller burrs depending on whether it'll be in the Specialita' range (55mm) or the new Oro segment (64-65mm), in which latter cause it would cost double what the G-Peng / G-Dawg / G-Duck does.
> 
> Am I happy to pay more or settle for lower burrs, knowing that the product still falls within my budget and has been developed in-house by a competent team of people who have been making grinders since the 50s or 60s? Perhaps yes. I don't know.
> 
> I need to get my thinking hat. Like the penguin.


 agree with you post - i have decided to wait until a Niche is available - the provenance and the user testimonies are the main reasons - the temptation to go with this one to save £150 was there but i will regret it. On the plus side - i just got an email confirming the Bianca i ordered has been shipped today ????


----------



## pgarrish

This thing popped on on youtube whilst i was looking for the G-DAWG / solo whatever its called... It bears a (very) passing resemblance to the Eureka style and I could find no sign of it in the UK...


----------



## Bicky

Baffo said:


> As far as we know, they might as well have developed this product by dissecting a Lagom (or similar) and just roughly replicating the structure. I mean, look at this peng.. picture. Anything familiar?


 The thought that this is a poor man's Lagom did cross my mind the other day 😂



Baffo said:


> I don't want to crap on this product. I'm confident it could be valid. Had it been black, I might as well have pulled the trigger.


 I'm the same. Someone needs to tell BB that they can't gauge the popularity of the grinder based on the sales of this initial batch, because no bugger wants this 'colour'!


----------



## Baffo

Bicky said:


> The thought that this is a poor man's Lagom did cross my mind the other day ????
> 
> I'm the same. *Someone needs to tell BB *that they can't gauge the popularity of the grinder based on the sales of this initial batch, because no bugger wants this 'colour'!


 @DavecUK










Ok I'll see myself out..


----------



## 4085

I have never, seen so much drivel talked about a sub £400 grinder before. It is not even available yet! The only person with the earned right of opinion on here has one........if in doubt, either wait, or put your name down for a Niche


----------



## profesor_historia

pgarrish said:


> This thing popped on on youtube whilst i was looking for the G-DAWG / solo whatever its called... It bears a (very) passing resemblance to the Eureka style and I could find no sign of it in the UK...


It must me pretty expensive I think.


----------



## MWJB

> 22 minutes ago, pgarrish said:
> 
> This thing popped on on youtube whilst i was looking for the G-DAWG / solo whatever its called... It bears a (very) passing resemblance to the Eureka style and I could find no sign of it in the UK...


 It's been in the press for well over a year, features (hybrid burrs, precise grind on demand, portafilter recognition) suggest it's going to be pricey ~US$3,800. Grindie are part of DRM.

https://www.grindie.it/solo/?lang=en

https://www.grindie.it/solo/?lang=en


----------



## profesor_historia

dfk41 said:


> I have never, seen so much drivel talked about a sub £400 grinder before. It is not even available yet! The only person with the earned right of opinion on here has one........if in doubt, either wait, or put your name down for a Niche


What could possibly go wrong with the new one?


----------



## DavecUK

Bicky said:


> I'm the same. Someone needs to tell BB that they can't gauge the popularity of the grinder based on the sales of this initial batch, because no bugger wants this 'colour'!


 I did a mini engineering review, to make sure it wasn't a bad grinder BB shouldn't be selling...and it's not. It's a good grinder. Mine was a pre, production, not sure that's quite the right word pre change. So it was silver, different button, different portafilter rubber covers, different feet. Otherwise everything else the same.

My role wasn't to say about colour....because I had no idea what colour it would be until I saw it, or about aesthetics. I'm told the intended approx retail price, so I can review it keeping the price in mind. e.g. had it been £3000, I would have expected some other features (obviously). It's not for me to judge the grinder on looks...you guys will do that.

For the price being offered on the forum, which is cheaper than I thought. It's a nice solid grinder that I have been using every day for quite a while now/read months not days. I've just kept it out of shot. I'm still using it and grind straight into the 53mm portafilter using a portafilter funnel/ring kindly provided by @Norvin This makes it much better as I can hit the puffer at the end of the grind and it keeps everything pretty clean. I don't bother stirring the grinds in the pf...I just tamp and go.

I think if you don't like the look of it, and it's going to bother you every time you see it on the counter...then obviously it's not the right grinder for you.


----------



## thodoris5321

I've been reading for this grinder in this topic since i'm willing to buy a new grinder soon.

I think the next thing to test about this grinder is a taste comparison with other competitive grinders or popular ones, like the specialita, the xl, the niche, the super jolly, the sette..

The grinder's reliability will be tested through the time.

Do the Italmill burs come alligned? And do they come from the shop, or from the chinese factory? I don't remember reading a comment about this.


----------



## MWJB

Teamacs said:


> I'm only here because I considered buying one of these but feel scared to talk about it now! Are you ok?


 Talk about it all you like, free of fear. What's the worst that will happen?

To be fair, @dfk41 advice was practical, he's never been strong on etiquette & unlikely ever to be.  Bark worse than the bite.


----------



## MWJB

thodoris5321 said:


> I've been reading for this grinder in this topic since i'm willing to buy a new grinder soon.
> 
> I think the next thing to test about this grinder is a taste comparison with other competitive grinders or popular ones, like the specialita, the xl, the niche, the super jolly, the sette..
> 
> The grinder's reliability will be tested through the time.
> 
> Do the Italmill burs come alligned? And do they come from the shop, or from the chinese factory? I don't remember reading a comment about this.


 Who is going to conduct this test? What would the format be?

I own a Sette & Niche...don't buy a Sette if you make pour over coffee, or other coarser grind brew methods.

There is no manufacturer data on burr alignment, for any grinder. If the burrs were catastrophically aligned, I'm sure @DavecUK would have detected degradation in shot quality by now.


----------



## DavecUK

Teamacs said:


> Is it the best grinder you can buy for £400? That you know of


 I try not to compare so much as review each product on it's merits. The difficulty is, what's best for one person may not be best for another. It should be clear from this thread that it doesn't suit everyone....


----------



## Baffo

For what it's worth, reading on home-barista (I don't know if I can link to an external forum and I am way too lazy to read the rules) it seems like one early user/tester has measured around 1g total retention without using the bellows. I wonder whether this is how BB has measured as well. Regardless, a good result.

Whilst I don't agree with @dfk41's tone, I do agree that myself and others are perhaps a bit too cautious, as we're still somewhat protected by a 2y warranty.

Now, is there an expert in films/vinyls that can advise on how to replace that horrible carbon fibre look 🤣

@DavecUK yours was without the film, correct? Could you share some close up pic? Sorry for putting you on the spot, if you can't that's totally fine.


----------



## adz313

@DavecUK - I've not spotted this asked or answered (so don't shoot!) - how does it work without the bellows? Are they necessary for it to work

Aesthetically they really jar for me, so if I were to go for this over a Niche (which I have different aesthetic issues with, but at least it's neat looking), i'd prefer not to have the bellows.


----------



## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> 1. For what it's worth, reading on home-barista (I don't know if I can link to an external forum and I am way too lazy to read the rules) it seems like one early user/tester has measured around 1g total retention without using the bellows. I wonder whether this is how BB has measured as well. Regardless, a good result.
> 
> Whilst I don't agree with @dfk41's tone, I do agree that myself and others are perhaps a bit too cautious, as we're still somewhat protected by a 2y warranty.
> 
> Now, is there an expert in films/vinyls that can advise on how to replace that horrible carbon fibre look 🤣
> 
> @DavecUK yours was without the film, correct? Could you share some close up pic? Sorry for putting you on the spot, if you can't that's totally fine.


 No problem linking to a thread on another forum, never has been. In fact it's encouraged as it's better than restating their content. I believe Dan at HB has the same policy as us.

Mine was not without the film, they took an aluminium alloy grinder and gave it an aluminium alloy wrap....sorry 🤣

@adz313Without the bellows you will get some retention, which exchanges with the next shot. It's not too bad, but it's better with the bellows. very little wight comes out with the bellows, possibly 0.5 to 0.8g, but if it's allowed to build up, perhaps it will grow larger each time.


----------



## profesor_historia

adz313 said:


> @DavecUK - I've not spotted this asked or answered (so don't shoot!) - how does it work without the bellows? Are they necessary for it to work
> Aesthetically they really jar for me, so if I were to go for this over a Niche (which I have different aesthetic issues with, but at least it's neat looking), i'd prefer not to have the bellows.


I really don't see the problem with the bellows, Ceado E37sd has them, it's more important the looks or the functionality? In the UK the difference with Niche is just 150 £ maybe but in Europe would be 350€. I am thinking seriously of buying it


----------



## zellleonhart

I ordered one unit from my reseller in Malaysia, expect to receive it around mid/late March. I have seen a demo unit at the reseller's place, with RDT and the bellow, it's possible to get near to zero retention (0.1-0.2g max). Without RDT and bellow usage, however, it's about 1g as reported by many. He is also the same guy who recorded the video posted in Page 10 of this thread.


----------



## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> Mine was not without the film, they took an aluminium alloy grinder and gave it an aluminium alloy wrap....sorry 🤣


 Oh cmon 🤣

Anyway, since it is allowed to post, in the below there's an user (Giampiero) who seems to have tested it and they explain their findings. Could be interesting for some peeps here.

https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/g-iota-espresso-grinder-t70854.html

I've also emailed BB about this film, to understand a bit more. They should offer a wrapping service kinda like some shops do around Christmas!


----------



## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> Oh cmon 🤣
> 
> Anyway, since it is allowed to post, in the below there's an user (Giampiero) who seems to have tested it and they explain their findings. Could be interesting for some peeps here.
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/g-iota-espresso-grinder-t70854.html
> 
> I've also emailed BB about this film, to understand a bit more. They should offer a wrapping service kinda like some shops do around Christmas!


 That was an interesting read, thanks for linking it. Interesting they said an adhesive film....which means any wrap by people customising the grinder should ideally be over the existing film..


----------



## 27852

Baffo said:


> Oh cmon 🤣
> 
> Anyway, since it is allowed to post, in the below there's an user (Giampiero) who seems to have tested it and they explain their findings. Could be interesting for some peeps here.
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/g-iota-espresso-grinder-t70854.html
> 
> I've also emailed BB about this film, to understand a bit more. They should offer a wrapping service kinda like some shops do around Christmas!


 Time to reinstate the "do it" chant!


----------



## jonr2

profesor_historia said:


> adz313 said:
> 
> 
> 
> @DavecUK - I've not spotted this asked or answered (so don't shoot!) - how does it work without the bellows? Are they necessary for it to work
> Aesthetically they really jar for me, so if I were to go for this over a Niche (which I have different aesthetic issues with, but at least it's neat looking), i'd prefer not to have the bellows.
> 
> 
> 
> I really don't see the problem with the bellows, Ceado E37sd has them, it's more important the looks or the functionality? In the UK the difference with Niche is just 150 £ maybe but in Europe would be 350€. I am thinking seriously of buying it
Click to expand...

 i thought you were getting the Arco grinder - you thinking of getting both?


----------



## 4085

There are three things about this grinder that make it interesting. Firstly, the price point. Secondly, the fact that BB are going to stock it. Thirdly, early thoughts from @Davecuk whilst giving nothing away., seem fairly positive. Undoubtedly, it has not been in development for the timeframe (4 years I believe) that the Niche was but until they come into stock, people buy them then post from an owners experience, then they remain a mystery. The idea of using a bellows system has been mooted for a number of years. I am sure someone on here came up with the idea, but that also might be my bad memory.

I am not totally convinced by the old thought that flats were for medium to light and conicals for medium to dark. It is always nice to see a new product come to the market. The burr set and how it holds up to use will be interesting but did I not read somewhere that alternate tin burrs might be available.

So, how many have pre ordered it from BB then?


----------



## Baffo

@Kjk









????


----------



## Mrboots2u

Uncoated SSP 64 mm burrs would cost $170 plus import taxes , so getting on for half the price of the grinder.

I'd want a compelling reason to try one ( like SSP burrs ) otherwise I'm there isn't enough for me to put up against many niche i think .

Perhaps ill wait until someone pulls it apart and tests alignment on it.


----------



## HaggisMoose

dfk41 said:


> So, how many have pre ordered it from BB then?


 I put mine in today. I can't wait for Niche anymore and from the discussions I've had with BB regarding this grinder, I'm happy to give this a go.


----------



## Rdl81

I think I will wait and see how others get on but it meets my criteria of single dose and smallish foot print. I am not in a hurry as don't have an espresso set up since selling by my cherub and SJ. A good on demand single dose grinder could bring me back. This is in reality half the price of a niche at the moment.

Having read all the posts here and else where it seems this machine should be readily available and therefore not an urgent need to pre order


----------



## naturalganja

Look is obviously subjective as I, for one, like the appearance of the df64, much more than Eureka for example which to me looks horrendous (and with the bello it's just impossible for me, like it seems the df64 look is a no go for many) but again, all subjective!

Regarding retention, the latest video posted seems to be first grind straight out of the box and using bellow he is getting <0.1g, so combining with RDT I can't imagine this would ever be an issue. All the other videos seem to confirm it. Also here (https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/g-iota-espresso-grinder-t70854-50.html) post #57, he installed something to reduce retention without use of bellow. Worth investigating even though it's a bit sketchy.

I might have found a supplier in Singapore that have them, he sold out his first drop but he says he is expecting more early March. I'll post more if it turns out positively.

On my end the Niche was always appealing but the conical is where it ends, I have a Commandante with red clix and even though an electric would be better, it would kinda be redundant and prefer invest in a flat and immediately upgrade it to SSP multi-purpose as I'm all for light/medium and enjoy a fair bit of pour over too. Conical for pour over in my experience work for sure, but can't compare to nice flat which I have been missing at home and since I stopped working at the shop!

The one lacking piece of information that I'd love to see is a particle uniformity test like Socratic Coffee does, just to see how it compares with others. Someone mentioned the 3 springs holding the carrier would be an issue and would never be truly aligned. I thought this was a pretty standard carrier design and anyway I plan on making sure of the alignment and rectify it if needed when installing SSP.

I just can't find a reason not to give it a shot at that price point...


----------



## profesor_historia

jonr2 said:


> i thought you were getting the Arco grinder - you thinking of getting both?


To be honest I am opening to every interesting new option. If I find a good deal I will seriously give it a thought.







. Arco is promising but it has very small burrs so I am still tempted of big burrs.


----------



## profesor_historia

Rdl81 said:


> I think I will wait and see how others get on but it meets my criteria of single dose and smallish foot print. I am not in a hurry as don't have an espresso set up since selling by my cherub and SJ. A good on demand single dose grinder could bring me back. This is in reality half the price of a niche at the moment.
> 
> Having read all the posts here and else where it seems this machine should be readily available and therefore not an urgent need to pre order


Half the price of a Niche? Are you in UE?


----------



## MWJB

naturalganja said:


> Regarding retention, the latest video posted seems to be first grind straight out of the box and using bellow he is getting <0.1g, so combining with RDT I can't imagine this would ever be an issue. All the other videos seem to confirm it


 This isn't true. Single dosing you can only dose the whole bean to +/-0.1g. To get +/-0.1g out, your grinder would have to pre-empt short doses & over doses & make up/subtract the difference.

It's pretty much moot, because dose consistency of <+/-0.5g is "zero retention" and pedants like me can chuck an extra bean in & top/tail the output. There seems to be a general misunderstanding of what is realistic & folk are ever more trying to quote a lower number in a "Top Trumps" scenario & hope no one will notice.


----------



## Rdl81

profesor_historia said:


> Half the price of a Niche? Are you in UE?


If I wanted to buy a niche now how much would it cost me, here in the uk?


----------



## HVL87

So I shared some feedback with Bella Barista regarding the carbon fibre wrap - I asked whether it was possible to include other colours in the first batch.

They have since been in touch and apparently have managed to split the initial order, hopefully receiving some as metallic black and white. All being well images should be available tomorrow and the website updated accordingly.

BB said they removed the carbon wrap and underneath is an aluminium finish. Apparently no marks or residue when removed and it would brush up to a polished finish if anyone has the time or inclination.


----------



## naturalganja

MWJB said:


> This isn't true. Single dosing you can only dose the whole bean to +/-0.1g. To get +/-0.1g out, your grinder would have to pre-empt short doses & over doses & make up/subtract the difference.


 I'm not sure I understand what you mean here and I feel like you misunderstood what I meant. Of course "zero retention" is never truly zero. I just meant that after watching all the test videos I could find, using both bellow and rdt seem to be getting to what we would call zero retention and the exchange, once again using both techniques seem far from the 1g I saw elsewhere.


----------



## profesor_historia

Rdl81 said:


> If I wanted to buy a niche now how much would it cost me, here in the uk?


Indiegogo web page says 499 GBP.


----------



## MWJB

naturalganja said:


> I'm not sure I understand what you mean here and I feel like you misunderstood what I meant. Of course "zero retention" is never truly zero. I just meant that after watching all the test videos I could find, using both bellow and rdt seem to be getting to what we would call zero retention and the exchange, once again using both techniques seem far from the 1g I saw elsewhere.


 I'm not misunderstanding, nor am I levelling a criticism at you specifically. You just happened to write that +/-<0.1g dose consistency, when single dosing, was demonstrated to be possible. It's not been observed & you'd need some tiny/part beans to feed into the grinder to get close.

It's a technical concern more than a practical one, but building grinders is a technical pursuit and if a spec is open to misinterpretation, what else is could be wrong.


----------



## Baffo

HVL87 said:


> So I shared some feedback with Bella Barista regarding the carbon fibre wrap - I asked whether it was possible to include other colours in the first batch.
> 
> They have since been in touch and apparently have managed to split the initial order, hopefully receiving some as metallic black and white. All being well images should be available tomorrow and the website updated accordingly.
> 
> BB said they removed the carbon wrap and underneath is an aluminium finish. Apparently no marks or residue when removed and it would brush up to a polished finish if anyone has the time or inclination.


 Thank you for your service 

I also emailed David to ask but I guess he'll tell me the same.

In the ongoing investigation, I wonder whether this spring mechanism of the upper housing thingy.. As far as I have read it is shared by other grinders (I want to say ek43?). Are such other grimders renowned for being a pain to keep aligned? Is this mechanism inherently prone to other issues?

Yes, a lot of questions on a £400 grinder. Some of us like to research things and know exactly what we're buying even if it's entry level.


----------



## Rdl81

profesor_historia said:


> Indiegogo web page says 499 GBP.


Yes but they are out off stock with no idea when pre orders will open up. They are selling for around £800 on eBay


----------



## profesor_historia

Baffo said:


> Thank you for your service
> I also emailed David to ask but I guess he'll tell me the same.
> In the ongoing investigation, I wonder whether this spring mechanism of the upper housing thingy.. As far as I have read it is shared by other grinders (I want to say ek43?). Are such other grimders renowned for being a pain to keep aligned? Is this mechanism inherently prone to other issues?
> 
> Yes, a lot of questions on a £400 grinder. Some of us like to research things and know exactly what we're buying even if it's entry level.


I think Mazzer Super Jolly has the same spring system if I remember well.


----------



## profesor_historia

Rdl81 said:


> Yes but they are out off stock with no idea when pre orders will open up. They are selling for around £800 on eBay


Yes but not sold by Niche but by some individuals taking advantage of the situation.


----------



## Rdl81

profesor_historia said:


> Yes but not sold by Niche but by some individuals taking advantage of the situation.


Yes point being if I want to buy one it's double this.....unless there is some confirmation on when the niche is available at £500


----------



## profesor_historia

Rdl81 said:


> Yes point being if I want to buy one it's double this.....unless there is some confirmation on when the niche is available at £500


I heard it will be again soon.


----------



## naturalganja

Rdl81 said:


> Yes but they are out off stock with no idea when pre orders will open up. They are selling for around £800 on eBay


 They are saying in a few weeks


----------



## ajohn

This grinder is on a Polish web site with various wrap colours. Also a titanium burr option. Should be with them now but say they decided to wait for the titanium burrs to be available as well. So March.

I would have thought BB should offer black or white as that's fairly normal  carbon fibre look isn't but may appeal to some I suppose.

From weighing in on grinders I would expect +/- 0.2g unless extra steps are taken over what is usually done but no idea how much angling the grinder helps. BB seem to be saying 0.3g.

Retention is a different aspect as some generally becomes permanent. Very permanent after a week or so. Then there may be some interchange when beans are changed. Something I haven't really noticed on Niche. On a SGP where the permanent is higher I could detect a taint of the previous bean with a 9-10g dose. None after that. As cleaning out starts it all up again  I just drank it.


----------



## Aidy

@DavecUK Have you enjoyed using it?


----------



## Baffo

I know these are renderings, but still, literally all of these look better than carbon fibre. Even pink.


----------



## DavecUK

Aidy said:


> @DavecUK Have you enjoyed using it?


 Yup, am still using it and put the TiN burrs in tomorrow. Got some old crap to put through to season them a bit...fecked up a roast, after I stopped crying (because they were expensive), I thought at least I don't have to throw them away.

My attention was diverted by something on the forum....I looked up and thought dammit...


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> I know these are renderings, but still, literally all of these look better than carbon fibre. Even pink.
> View attachment 53715


 You know you want one with an orange nozzle/beak, though


----------



## Baffo

Anybody speaking Arabic? I found a Middle Eastern Dave C.


----------



## profesor_historia

@DavecUK how much does the grinder weight? I found different numbers, 15kg, 13kg, 8kg....

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

profesor_historia said:


> @DavecUK how much does the grinder weight? I found different number, 15kg, 13kg, 8kg....
> 
> Thanks


 Dunno it's quite heavy...if it's priced by weight, you're getting your moneys worth.


----------



## naturalganja

profesor_historia said:


> @DavecUK how much does the grinder weight? I found different numbers, 15kg, 13kg, 8kg....
> 
> Thanks


 I asked HB the total weight of the parcel and they said 13kg. not sure for the grinder alone


----------



## profesor_historia

naturalganja said:


> I asked HB the total weight of the parcel and they said 13kg. not sure for the grinder alone


Thank you


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

profesor_historia said:


> @DavecUK how much does the grinder weight? I found different numbers, 15kg, 13kg, 8kg....
> 
> Thanks


 Maybe they've done some upgrades in materials used, which could explain the weight variances.
It seems @DavecUK's version had plastic areas whereas I think the Belgian supplier said it was powder coated metal (front central area with the chute, and the base). I might be doing some wishful thinking, but if it's true, I guess it's even better


----------



## Enea

I just read through all 12 pages of this thread. If you're in the market for a flat-burred single dosing grinder, I really don't get why you'd feel insecure about this one. @DavecUK has been using it for months and is happy, what more do you want? Short of having it presented to you on a red carpet surrounded by trumpets bleating, that should be all the assurance anyone needs.


----------



## Evoh

> On 22/02/2021 at 02:47, Baffo said:
> 
> I don't understand much about issues with burr alignment, SSP unimodal burs, what-have-you, but here goes


 A little off topic, but does anyone know what espresso machine is used in that video?


----------



## zellleonhart

Evoh said:


> A little off topic, but does anyone know what espresso machine is used in that video?


 It is a Chinese dual boiler espresso machine called Nook Mini.


----------



## Waitforme

Enea said:


> I just read through all 12 pages of this thread. If you're in the market for a flat-burred single dosing grinder, I really don't get why you'd feel insecure about this one. @DavecUK has been using it for months and is happy, what more do you want? Short of having it presented to you on a red carpet surrounded by trumpets bleating, that should be all the assurance anyone needs.


 But, it's still a largely unknown unit afaik.

We know from user experience that the Niche customer service is second to none, the £150 extra cost of the Niche divided by say 5 years of ownership would be worth the extra expense in my opinion.

Now If this one had the same backup then I'd agree , for £150 less than the Niche it would appear to be a no brainer as far as function is concerned.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Am I the only one who finds the air blowing during or after a shot in order to keep the chamber clear a very unappealing and poorly designed, less than elegant choice? Surely a manufacturer can do better with a product designed from the ground up?


----------



## Rincewind

profesor_historia said:


> What could possibly go wrong with the new one


 Well the *man* from Del Monte' he say *yes* 👇(see below)



Enea said:


> I really don't get why you'd feel insecure about this one. @DavecUK has been using it for months and is happy, what more do you want? Short of having it presented to you on a red carpet surrounded by trumpets bleating, that should be all the assurance anyone needs.


 In a nutshell *£399 in Blighty*......but the bargain hunters amongst you WILL get a CHEAPER deal if you are prepared to *search this very thread*; i.e Malaysia, Singapore and Belgium are you money-saving FRIENDS :classic_wink:

So for our *European/*other cousins :- *750 Euro's for a Niche* compared to *659 Euro's for G-IOTA + RED SPEED burrs* is a no brainer....you pays your money you makes a choice :classic_biggrin:


----------



## Baffo

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Am I the only one who finds the air blowing during or after a shot in order to keep the chamber clear a very unappealing and poorly designed, less than elegant choice? Surely a manufacturer can do better with a product designed from the ground up?


 It is unappealing. But then I ask myself, why does the better looking duck (Lagom) costs more than three times the price, despite being nearly identical from the outside? Surely the design solutions that would have been required were either unknown or undesirable (ie too expensive) to the development team behind the Solo.

I think this product was designed from the ground up with one sole objective: pack the most results with the lowest price tag. I mean, imagine if it costed £800 and achieved everything the Lagom does, but with no bellows. It would have been an amazing engineering feat. Would more people be eager to try it though? I'm not so sure, we'd be even more skeptical due to the price tag and all of the unknowns.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Baffo said:


> It is unappealing. But then I ask myself, why does the better looking duck (Lagom) costs more than three times the price, despite being nearly identical from the outside?


 You can say the same with coffee machines, phones, TVs, fridges, ovens, doors, cars...

It's supply and demand and a marketing/selling strategy behind. Make it shiny, with tight tolerances and high quality materials and you can charge a lot more money for *functionally *the same thing.


----------



## MWJB

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Am I the only one who finds the air blowing during or after a shot in order to keep the chamber clear a very unappealing and poorly designed, less than elegant choice? Surely a manufacturer can do better with a product designed from the ground up?


 Seems not to bother Cafetek & Levercraft. I guess, even designing from th ground up, that any more better is still better, even if perceived as inelegant.


----------



## Baffo

@MediumRoastSteam well yes but it seems to achieve similar retention to the G-dawg without bellows, so something must be happening inside there. It must not be revolutionary, otherwise we'd have seen a patent. Had it been easy/cheap to do, I'm sure the development team behind the G-Iota would have picked it up..


----------



## profesor_historia

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Am I the only one who finds the air blowing during or after a shot in order to keep the chamber clear a very unappealing and poorly designed, less than elegant choice? Surely a manufacturer can do better with a product designed from the ground up?


Ceado E37SD valued in about 1900€ has a similar one. I don't need an oeuvre d'art in my kitchen either. In one of the first reviews of Niche in HB someone thought it looked like a Krups grinder hit by a truck . 
Jokes aside I think the Chinese designers had to sacrifice something for a lower price.


----------



## aganov

For the money on the Lagom you will receive better tolerances, brushless DC motor and Adjustable RPM. Some ppl tend to say that you will get better results on low RPM.

Btw here are some photos of the DF64's internals from AVX (Hungarian distributor). I'm curious to see the coupler/gearbox, bearings etc.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

profesor_historia said:


> Ceado E37SD valued in about 1900€ has a similar one


 Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's great. 🙂 (presumably you are talking about the bellows here) 👍


----------



## 27852

Waitforme said:


> But, it's still a largely unknown unit afaik.
> 
> We know from user experience that the Niche customer service is second to none, the £150 extra cost of the Niche divided by say 5 years of ownership would be worth the extra expense in my opinion.
> 
> Now If this one had the same backup then I'd agree , for £150 less than the Niche it would appear to be a no brainer as far as function is concerned.


 That's true of any new product but I think you can read into the fact that they are being rebadged by their end sellers to deal with any customer service issues. You'd do that with a product that you can manufacture for reasonable cost at speed and scale.

Niche has great customer service but you will have to wait for the earth moon and stars to align before you will have the pleasure of experiencing it. They can't make enough of their machines so they have to put in the work to make sure the product is right - if they can't you've got a long lead time to a replacement machine which is a disaster for their reputation. In the long run this strategy is unsustainable.

If this manufacturer can quickly crank out new units then what does it matter if a proportion of batches has a fault? You just increase your production run to cover that proportion (and perversely lower average costs) and quickly replace with new units.

There is clearly a demand for the functionality at this price point, the biggest challenge is to make it commercially viable to produce and sell at volume. The Niche represented a gap in the market but you have to ask yourself if the effect of scarcity has turned a product which should be viewed more closely as a widget into gold dust (from a supply and demand perspective the Niche today is under priced). In the end, it's a consumer appliance - a casing, with a motor, that spins a burr - with a requirement for a narrower set of manufacturing tolerances than other product types. If they are able to achieve consistent quality at scale and a good price then chapeaux to them.


----------



## profesor_historia

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Just because it's expensive doesn't mean it's great.  (presumably you are talking about the bellows here)


No, what I am saying is that if a more expensive grinder from a legendary company uses it cannot be such a bad option. I actually like to look of the bellows, honestly.


----------



## YokuSan

Concerning color options, the producer seems to have a very big palette of possible colors for the grinder. The question is more which color the reseller wants to sell.

https://german.alibaba.com/product-detail/2021-most-popular-household-espresso-coffee-grinder-titanium-64mm-burr-small-coffee-grinder-df64-1600200065632.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.normal_offer.d_title.55e2540c8Y9rqU

I am eagerly waiting for this grinder to pop up on Aliexpress. That will bring the price down. I remember the initial prices on Alibaba (140 Pounds above 30 Units), it seems they had to bring those prices up to keep peace with the resellers. But for me it seems they can sell it at 140 pounds and still make profit. Therefore I hope it will get really cheap in some time.


----------



## Baffo

YokuSan said:


> Concerning color options, the producer seems to have a very big palette of possible colors for the grinder. The question is more which color the reseller wants to sell.
> 
> https://german.alibaba.com/product-detail/2021-most-popular-household-espresso-coffee-grinder-titanium-64mm-burr-small-coffee-grinder-df64-1600200065632.html?spm=a2700.galleryofferlist.normal_offer.d_title.55e2540c8Y9rqU
> 
> I am eagerly waiting for this grinder to pop up on Aliexpress. That will bring the price down. I remember the initial prices on Alibaba (140 Pounds above 30 Units), it seems they had to bring those prices up to keep peace with the resellers. But for me it seems they can sell it at 140 pounds and still make profit. Therefore I hope it will get really cheap in some time.


 I don't think it will pop up on AliExpress. It's very clear that resellers (from Belgium, Singapore, UK, Poland, and who knows where else) demanded the prices be moved higher, and they can guarantee sales volumes that are probably far higher to "the Chinese" (honestly, I can't be arsed to write "the development and production team behind the Solo" every time) than they would get by selling on AliExpress.


----------



## Baffo

In other news, our prayers have been heard. There's only 20 of these, get yer hands on one 😅

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/the-solo-single-dose-grinder-white.html


----------



## cuprajake

@Baffo you on commission ???????? an yes i know minima minima minima


----------



## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> @Baffo you on commission ???????? an yes i know minima minima minima


 We all know by now that the more I talk about stuff without buying stuff, the more I spend. On the other hand, I'm not an early adopter by nature, but I can totally be a second wave guy. Or a wimp. Depending on how we want to phrase this.


----------



## PACMAN

So it's now a choice of carbon fibre or white, no black only?


----------



## Aidy

YokuSan said:


> I am eagerly waiting for this grinder to pop up on Aliexpress. That will bring the price down. I remember the initial prices on Alibaba (140 Pounds above 30 Units), it seems they had to bring those prices up to keep peace with the resellers. But for me it seems they can sell it at 140 pounds and still make profit. Therefore I hope it will get really cheap in some time.


 Yeah, but the shipping scaled up with the number of units.

I'd be a bit surprised if this ever really got to lower than about £340-£350 once all the fees were accounted for.


----------



## Baffo

PACMAN said:


> So it's now a choice of carbon fibre or white, no black only?


 I think it will pop up on the website in black as well, but I haven't asked. It's just that they had 100 units and now it shows 39 (probably was 40 initially) for carbon and 20 for white, which leaves 40 units unaccounted for.


----------



## Blues

Hi to you all.

I'm from Poland and I ordered one unit at the beginning of this month. Like someone mentioned we are waiting for our batch to be produced and shipped to us. Our reseller decided that we wait and get titanium burrs and bellows included in price. I payed 307 pounds. Our reseller mentioned that next batch will be more expensive because they want to make prices "equal" across whole Europe. He also said that different colors will be available as well as possibility to buy ssp burrs. Obviously I can't give you any information about grinder as I don't have it yet. I know only information from guys that tested it and posted info on polish coffe forum.


----------



## DavecUK

This is like reading a novel...I think just about every speculative avenue has been explored, some conspiracy theories evaluated, judgements made... love it 🤣


----------



## Aidy

DavecUK said:


> This is like reading a novel...I think just about every speculative avenue has been explored, some conspiracy theories evaluated, judgements made... love it 🤣


 I can't wait to find out how it ends!


----------



## DavecUK

Aidy said:


> I can't wait to find out how it ends!


 Well it's the most fantastic piece of self induced marketing I've ever seen.... it's fascinating.


----------



## Aidy

DavecUK said:


> Well it's the most fantastic piece of self induced marketing I've ever seen.... it's fascinating.


 I thought it was interesting that despite all of the chatter, only one of the pre-orders had been taken up.


----------



## cuprajake

The chap from decent says that 64mm burrs are the best app


----------



## DavecUK

Aidy said:


> I thought it was interesting that despite all of the chatter, only one of the pre-orders had been taken up.


 Really, I never looked. I imagine once a few people own them that might change...


----------



## Blues

On our forum it was sold out for quite some time all ready. I bought last one and was happy to get one with titanium burs.


----------



## HaggisMoose

DavecUK said:


> This is like reading a novel...I think just about every speculative avenue has been explored, some conspiracy theories evaluated, judgements made... love it 🤣


 Mine better come wearing a mask.


----------



## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> This is like reading a novel...I think just about every speculative avenue has been explored, some conspiracy theories evaluated, judgements made... love it ????


 I also know what kind of "novel"..


----------



## Nightrider_1uk

Kjk said:


> 'd be very tempted with that level of discount, you'd have to think how far away your secondhand sale price would be from entry price.


 if its a Niche, it will probably be worth more secondhand 😄


----------



## Baffo

Blues said:


> On our forum it was sold out for quite some time all ready. I bought last one and was happy to get one with titanium burs.


 I suppose for you guys in EU it was a combination of:

- lower MSRP (399 EUR vs 399 GBP)

- Niche costing more due to Brexit customs shambles (750 EUR vs 499 GBP)

- you guys seem to be getting the Tin burrs stock, we don't

Not that it's not an attractive proposition in the UK, but surely it is more compelling in EU..


----------



## Baffo

Cuprajake said:


> The chap from decent says that 64mm burrs are the best app


 Where did he say that? Would be curious to watch it.


----------



## Blues

Baffo said:


> I suppose for you guys in EU it was a combination of:
> 
> - lower MSRP (399 EUR vs 399 GBP)
> 
> - Niche costing more due to Brexit customs shambles (750 EUR vs 499 GBP)
> 
> - you guys seem to be getting the Tin burrs stock, we don't
> 
> Not that it's not an attractive proposition in the UK, but surely it is more compelling in EU..


 Indeed. I have Eureka specialità but wanted grinder for my self. Eureka is for my wife as she can't be bothered by single dosing. After Brexit niche is more expensive and and you have higher chance to win lotto then get one 😂. Btw. I noticed on our forum that 2nd hand Niche was sold for price that you could buy new one before Brexit. I have option to buy niche as I have some friends in UK but decided to test something new.


----------



## zellleonhart

Baffo said:


> I suppose for you guys in EU it was a combination of:
> 
> - lower MSRP (399 EUR vs 399 GBP)
> 
> - Niche costing more due to Brexit customs shambles (750 EUR vs 499 GBP)
> 
> - you guys seem to be getting the Tin burrs stock, we don't
> 
> Not that it's not an attractive proposition in the UK, but surely it is more compelling in EU..


 In Malaysia (and perhaps Singapore too) it's even more compelling - I ordered the steel burrs version at just 265 GBP converted, it's a no-brainer to try out. A Niche Zero costs around 640 GBP shipped, in comparison.


----------



## naturalganja

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Am I the only one who finds the air blowing during or after a shot in order to keep the chamber clear a very unappealing and poorly designed, less than elegant choice? Surely a manufacturer can do better with a product designed from the ground up?


 Keep in mind you're talking about a flat burr priced below $400 USD... If it was that easy to get zero retention without a bellow you'd see Ceado etc... doing it too. Obviously much easier to achieve with conical as gravity does most of the job for you.

I'm just waiting for the Singapore supplier to receive 110v model and I'm ordering it.

At the end of the day, one of the greatest deciding factor for me beside the price and the flat burrs, is that if you buy the Niche for example, you're stuck with one flavour profile, a great one, yet a single one. If you get this one, you have access to several burrs that will each give you completely different results. The one I'm ordering comes with the Itamill burrs, and I'm getting SSP Unimodal at the same time. For $600 USD I'm getting 2 x set of burrs and the grinder, delivered in Canada, it's a no brainer on my end. And on top of it, its near total absence on the market ensures me that worst case scenario, if I don't like it, I will easily be able to sell it. No one (as far as I have seen) seem to have it in North America yet.

The Niche is a fantastic grinder, but if you want to explore clarity and experiment always more, it just won't get you there. Don't give me wrong, I love a good conical, I've been on it for several years and at work I use 75mm flat (Mythos pro), I just reached a point where I want to explore more at home.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Aidy said:


> I thought it was interesting that despite all of the chatter, only one of the pre-orders had been taken up.


 How many from this forum went for Niche when they opened their funding campaign?


----------



## Baffo

naturalganja said:


> Keep in mind you're talking about a flat burr priced below $400 USD... If it was that easy to get zero retention without a bellow you'd see Ceado etc... doing it too.


 Well, yes and no. Brands still need to make sure that their top end products perform better, so that there's a clear progression within the product line

As a newbie I have to ask.. Why would different burrs (say SSP) of the same diameter, that rotate at the same RPM with the same motor, offer a different flavour profile? I am a newbie so if this is a can of worms please ignore..


----------



## thodoris5321

Niche is adding stock tommorow 3pm GMT for anyone interesting. If it wasn't for me to learn about this grinder, i may consider the Niche, but for my country the cost is ~800 euros which is more than my salary.

It would be really nice to have a list of all resellers selling the df64 and with what changes on wrap - burrs they do so.


----------



## naturalganja

Baffo said:


> As a newbie I have to ask.. Why would different burrs (say SSP) of the same diameter, that rotate at the same RPM with the same motor, offer a different flavour profile? I am a newbie so if this is a can of worms please ignore..


 It's all about the geometry of the burrs itself. To give you a simplified idea: the standard will give you bimodal grind (basically 2 different sizes particles, fines and boulders), giving you a more traditional espresso profile, heavier body because of the fines, chocolatey notes etc... The SSP Unimodal, as the name implies it, will give a bigger spike spike of the same particle size, sacrificing a bit of body but gaining clarity, allowing you to extract more yield because the shot shot won't be as affected with the presence of more fines that would therefore be over extracted.

At the end of the day, a true unimodal grind doesn't exist, you'll always have different sizes particles, but the distribution of them is what will give you the biggest difference in terms of flavour profile. SSP actually renamed their Unimodal burrs as multi-purpose, because it gives you less fines at medium and coarse ground, perfect for filter, but they changed it in a way that you are getting more fines at espresso range, yet still less than with the standard.

SO basically, if you keep the standard burrs, you'll end up with a profile closer to what you would get with the Niche, but with unimodal, it's all going to be about clarity. It will be harder to dial in as the sweet spot is smaller, but it will be so rewarding if this is, like me, what you are after in your espresso.

You can find great info about flat burrs differences online, I guess one of the best one for people considering the DF64 is the Lagom P64 FAQ page. https://www.option-o.com/faq-lagom-p64

Also, received an email from Niche saying they are dropping tomorrow at 3pm for whoever is interested!


----------



## Zoltan

aganov said:


> For the money on the Lagom you will receive better tolerances, brushless DC motor and Adjustable RPM. Some ppl tend to say that you will get better results on low RPM.
> 
> Btw here are some photos of the DF64's internals from AVX (Hungarian distributor). I'm curious to see the coupler/gearbox, bearings etc.
> 
> View attachment 53728
> 
> 
> View attachment 53729


 Hi,

Would you link where you found these pictures or pm me?

I prefer to read on more sites about this grinder but can't find 'yours'.

Thanks


----------



## ajohn

Baffo said:


> As a newbie I have to ask.. Why would different burrs (say SSP) of the same diameter, that rotate at the same RPM with the same motor, offer a different flavour profile? I am a newbie so if this is a can of worms please ignore..


 Coffee taste comes from the grinds having a mix of particle sizes. The very small end usually called fines can add a noticeable taste if it's excessive. Bitter and harsh springs to mind. That may get mentioned in some reviews at times. New burrs are more inclined to do it until they are run in. The link posted earlier gives a run down on the types and mentions what could be gained by using so called unimodal especially on light roasts which can be rather bitter. If the fines are reduced it usually means that for the same ratio the grinder setting can be reduced. My Niche runs at least 10 indicator points finer than it did shortly after I bought it.

Burr size and rpm doesn't mean much really. The design of the burrs set the grind rate which in turn sets the motor power that is needed. Flats grind via centrifugal force so have a minimum speed where they are most likely to work effectively. Larger burrs say 80mm or over could be run slower but the design still sets the grind rate. The 80mm or so I am aware of run at 1400rpm. Some of the larger ones drop that to 900Hz by using a motor with more poles. Conical burrs are generally run slower on commercial grinders. Grinding rates can still be high.

Some reckon that large flats generate a nicer taste.  I say pass as I have not used one but I am like that.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Am I the only one who finds the air blowing during or after a shot in order to keep the chamber clear a very unappealing and poorly designed, less than elegant choice? Surely a manufacturer can do better with a product designed from the ground up?


 I rest my case m'lud.....and it's got a big extra box as well ????










I always think of


----------



## profesor_historia

DavecUK said:


> I rest my case m'lud.....and it's got a big extra box as well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I always think of


There is nothing new under the sun  (Ecleziast).


----------



## jonr2

DavecUK said:


> I rest my case m'lud.....and it's got a big extra box as well ????
> 
> 
> 
> I always think of


 'quick' they said 'go and make me an enormous grinder with a separate box no other grinder has and make it look like an ancient microscope'

that grinder is a clear example of a product designer going - lets see how ridiculous i can make a product look and our fans will still buy it and rave about it


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> I rest my case m'lud.....and it's got a big extra box as well ????
> 
> 
> 
> I always think of


 ???? - If the Solo is the hugging duck, what's this Ceado then? Humpty Dumpty? ????


----------



## pgarrish

MediumRoastSteam said:


> - If the Solo is the hugging duck, what's this Ceado then? Humpty Dumpty?


Looks like a prototype. Ugh


----------



## Aidy

I like the look of the Ceado, though I'm not sure about the extra box.


----------



## DavecUK

jonr2 said:


> that grinder is a clear example of a product designer going - lets see how ridiculous i can make a product look and our fans will still buy it and rave about it


 Some artists spring to mind.....but let's not go there


----------



## Blues

I'm kind of amazed how you guys care about look of grinders and coffee machines. To me it has to make best possible coffee, nothing else. I don't even know what color of grinder I ordered 😂. I guess my wife will have to like it. (Btw she doesn't know I ordered one 😂.


----------



## HaggisMoose

Blues said:


> I'm kind of amazed how you guys care about look of grinders and coffee machines. To me it has to make best possible coffee, nothing else. I don't even know what color of grinder I ordered 😂. I guess my wife will have to like it. (Btw she doesn't know I ordered one 😂.


 I just hope the Solo plays a mean tune when I start pumping the bellows.


----------



## DavecUK

HaggisMoose said:


> I just hope the Solo plays a mean tune when I start pumping the bellows.


----------



## jonr2

Blues said:


> I'm kind of amazed how you guys care about look of grinders and coffee machines. To me it has to make best possible coffee, nothing else. I don't even know what color of grinder I ordered 😂. I guess my wife will have to like it. (Btw she doesn't know I ordered one 😂.


 just wait til we start on something really important - like what cups to use 🙂


----------



## Baffo

I mean if anything this discussion is being fun. Some moderate banter about ducks and penguins, some technical discussion, some £££ considerations..


----------



## DavecUK

@Baffo Exactly as it should be....keeps people interested to read the drier stuff like how it works, how many beans you can fit in the CV boot, grind quality, etc..


----------



## profesor_historia

I've just seen a new grinder on Instagram and I was shocked about the speed and the grind texture. Don't know if I should start a new topic :

__
http://instagr.am/p/CHahQ4Ehq0A/


----------



## Rincewind

profesor_historia said:


> I've just seen a new grinder on Instagram and I was shocked about the speed and the grind texture. Don't know if I should start a new topic   :
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CHahQ4Ehq0A/


 That's not a grinder...that's an ice-cream machine ????


----------



## shodjoe1

Chrome finish lets say?👌

alibaba has available custom design styles ..minimum is two grinders to order 😎

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-Design-Style-Household-Espresso-Bean_1600201022403.html


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Maybe they've done some upgrades in materials used, which could explain the weight variances.
> It seems @DavecUK's version had plastic areas whereas I think the Belgian supplier said it was powder coated metal (front central area with the chute, and the base). I might be doing some wishful thinking, but if it's true, I guess it's even better


 No my bad, the black areas on mine are Aluminium Alloy as is the base, my poor old eyes glanced and I assumed plastic...*It's all metal*


----------



## Rincewind

shodjoe1 said:


> View attachment 53773


 *NOW the stakes have just been raised*....IMO this is a home-run; nay, i think the ball has just been knocked clean out of the park...YMMV .....i think some will now say "*shut up and just take my money*" (i could be wrong)


----------



## profesor_historia

shodjoe1 said:


> Chrome finish lets say?
> alibaba has available custom design styles ..minimum is two grinders to order
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-Design-Style-Household-Espresso-Bean_1600201022403.html
> <img alt="d1dc43650922b782med.png.f3cba0d7b20b6edef119034f04e6d19b.png" data-fileid="53773" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_02/d1dc43650922b782med.png.f3cba0d7b20b6edef119034f04e6d19b.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Now this is a very good looking grinder, difficult to resist .....


----------



## 27852

DavecUK said:


> No my bad, the black areas on mine are Aluminium Allow as is the base, my poor old eyes glanced and I assumed plastic...*It's all metal*


----------



## Waitforme

I notice there are a two versions of the warning on the adjustment ring ...

"Do not adjust past zero or the burrs will in collide "

"Do not adjust past zero to prevent burr damage"

Both on BB website.

Hopefully the later is what is actually shipping to them.


----------



## Baffo

Waitforme said:


> I notice there are a two versions of the warning on the adjustment ring ...
> 
> "Do not adjust past zero or the burrs will in collide "
> 
> "Do not adjust past zero to prevent burr damage"
> 
> Both on BB website.
> 
> Hopefully the later is what is actually shipping to them.


 I think the former is what the development team wrote (there's plenty of typos and not-so-great grammar even in the product sheet), whilst the latter is what BB wrote. I don't think there's two versions per se.


----------



## Blues

First mod? Guy from home barista says that after this "simple" mod he has 0.2 retention without using bellows.


----------



## Aidy

shodjoe1 said:


> Chrome finish lets say?👌
> 
> alibaba has available custom design styles ..minimum is two grinders to order 😎
> 
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-Design-Style-Household-Espresso-Bean_1600201022403.html
> 
> View attachment 53773


 If that was an option... how come everyone's gone for the Halfords special?!


----------



## Baffo

shodjoe1 said:


> Chrome finish lets say?👌
> 
> alibaba has available custom design styles ..minimum is two grinders to order 😎
> 
> https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/New-Design-Style-Household-Espresso-Bean_1600201022403.html
> 
> View attachment 53773


 Now this black and chrome (perhaps cream and chrome) would be nice. Definitely looks less like a toy duck. More like a robot duck.


----------



## DavecUK

Aidy said:


> If that was an option... how come everyone's gone for the Halfords special?!


 Chinese Marketing


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> Chinese Marketing


 Maybe not. Importers often have ideas in that area - next great thing could be to "carbon wrap" everything as it's a cost reduction. Limiting colours reduces stocking problems. More expensive machines might even use real carbon fibre.

The thought of an overworked Chinese person calibrating them concerns me a little. Wrapping might be labour intensive too. It is on a car.

Me on this one - waiting for @DavecUK comments on burrs and on using mazzer mini parts as I know those are good burrs. Italmill - pass.

🤣 I also expect him to spend hours feeding one bean at a time in to see if it needs a disc.


----------



## DavecUK

@ajohn By Chinese marketing I mean it's their form of "Bait and Switch" when selling products to UK Retailers.

Oh Italmill burrs are OK (as good as Mazzer...difficult to say. They new have some new production facilities for the flat now I think. Macap MC4 uses them and lots of other grinder companies as well....their Conical Burrs definitely were not as good as Mazzer.


----------



## Dallah

profesor_historia said:


> Now this is a very good looking grinder, difficult to resist   .....


 @profesor_historia That is a much better looking beast.


----------



## profesor_historia

Dallah said:


> @profesor_historia That is a much better looking beast.


Oh yeah, but let's see which retailer will sell this colour.


----------



## DavecUK

I have burrs to fit and genuine Mazzer Mini E burrs to size up


----------



## Coffee21

I was going to pre-order a white Niche but Indiegogo crashed, and once the white one appeared, it was sold out almost immediately. So I've pre-ordered a white Solo at BB with the 4 year RTB warranty for peace of mind. Well, I think I have. Adding it to my basket showed a quantity (of 1) unavailable - only 19 (or whatever) left, which is odd.


----------



## jonr2

Coffee21 said:


> I was going to pre-order a white Niche but Indiegogo crashed, and once the white one appeared, it was sold out almost immediately. So I've pre-ordered a white Solo at BB with the 4 year RTB warranty for peace of mind. Well, I think I have. Adding it to my basket showed a quantity (of 1) unavailable - only 19 (or whatever) left, which is odd.


 hey - thats sounds right - when i pre-ordered a Bianca from them it showed the same thing during the checkout process - hope it works out OK for you 🙂


----------



## Coffee21

jonr2 said:


> hey - thats sounds right - when i pre-ordered a Bianca from them it showed the same thing during the checkout process - hope it works out OK for you 🙂


 That's a relief - cheers!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Blues said:


> First mod? Guy from home barista says that after this "simple" mod he has 0.2 retention without using bellows.


 Do you have a link? I'm wondering what this mod is. Looks like the member there padded the chamber?


----------



## Blues

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Do you have a link? I'm wondering what this mod is. Looks like the member there padded the chamber?


 https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/g-iota-espresso-grinder-t70854-50.html

I hope this helps 👍


----------



## Rob1

This looks like the perfect accompaniment for the Niche.


----------



## Baffo

Rob1 said:


> This looks like the perfect accompaniment for the Niche.


 Don't give me ideas!


----------



## Baffo

Buy Niche

Wait for delivery

Sell on eBay for £750

Buy 2 Solo with the proceeds


----------



## Rob1

Buy 4 Niche. Sell 3 on ebay. Buy 1 solo, keep 1 Niche. Profit.

In all seriousness I don't condone that.


----------



## Blues

I'm in 😁








but waiting for niche to pop is like


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Blues said:


> https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/g-iota-espresso-grinder-t70854-50.html
> 
> I hope this helps 👍


 Thanks for this. What I find strange is why a brand new grinder should be modded. Basically the consists of adding a pot of mints or similar to the burr chamber in order to pad it and therefore reduce retention.

My question is... why didn't the manufacturer do that themselves? Why have so much space around the burrs? This is what I question... if it's being designed from the ground up, why not make it right first time? obviously I might be missing something.


----------



## Blues

very good question @MediumRoastSteam

but I think that it was inevitable that someone would try to reduce retention even more. We humans always push limits. Manufacturers do what is safe for average Joe, plus they care about money so maybe using different design would make it less profitable? I'm just speculating. 
I know that they have different bigger grinder so they are not starting company without experience.

By the way, all delivery of niche for April 1800 pcs was sold out within 31 minutes.


----------



## profesor_historia

Blues said:


> very good question @MediumRoastSteam
> but I think that it was inevitable that someone would try to reduce retention even more. We humans always push limits. Manufacturers do what is safe for average Joe, plus they care about money so maybe using different design would make it less profitable? I'm just speculating.
> I know that they have different bigger grinder so they are not starting company without experience.
> 
> By the way, all delivery of niche for April 1800 pcs was sold out within 31 minutes.
> <img alt="5CB991D9-43D3-434E-90FE-9458A8A2A077.thumb.jpeg.91ed1092fa82589467487937e7cc2d6a.jpeg" data-fileid="53838" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_02/5CB991D9-43D3-434E-90FE-9458A8A2A077.thumb.jpeg.91ed1092fa82589467487937e7cc2d6a.jpeg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


The mod was done in order to avoid the bellows, wasn't the designer intention. For this competitive price doesn't make any sense to look for defects etc, it is what we see, I am not at all bother by using the bellows as the retention is close to zero. It's not designer fault if someone wants to do a bit of an ugly mod, to be honest. 
It doesn't make any sense comparing to Niche either, in UE the price of a Niche is 750€ and the G-IOTA 399€ and maybe cheaper with a group by so.....not much of a thinking .
Besides, for the potential buyers in EU there is also the question of the after sale service. I know the customer service is very good but it's uncharted territory what happens in case I need a piece, or I have to send it back to be repaired etc.


----------



## ajohn

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Thanks for this. What I find strange is why a brand new grinder should be modded. Basically the consists of adding a pot of mints or similar to the burr chamber in order to pad it and therefore reduce retention.


 Having weighed in on a similar powered grinder couple of points when modded like that

I'd expect to see bits of bean feet from the grinder

Ok retention 0.2g which actually I'd doubt over long term use but how much remains behind.

Has he run the burrs in. Seems they may be stainless which *might* reduce the throughput to achieve that. Dave's photo's look like steel though.

Also fitting more aggressive burrs. If Mazzer Mini fit Super Jolly could be fitted. End result could be a burnt out motor or rapid stopping due to overheating if it has a cut out.

Also don't see how it will reduce retention much more than the upper burr carrier will.


----------



## Aidy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Thanks for this. What I find strange is why a brand new grinder should be modded.


 That's kinda a weird point of view. Obviously it doesn't *need* to be modded. It works as a grinder out of the box - pretty well too, by most accounts.

There's always going to be a bit more that people would like out of whatever. Engineering has to stop somewhere - you can always optimise a bit more.


----------



## ajohn

LOL I'd be tempted to buy one just to evaluate and use but fortunately I wouldn't touch a white one with a barge pole. It does have it's interesting points.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Aidy said:


> That's kinda a weird point of view. Obviously it doesn't *need* to be modded. It works as a grinder out of the box - pretty well too, by most accounts.
> 
> There's always going to be a bit more that people would like out of whatever. Engineering has to stop somewhere - you can always optimise a bit more.


 Maybe yes, I'm coming across weird. 😊 - but this is not the point I've been trying to make, obviously unsuccessfully! 🤣 . My experience tells me that, most of the time, a product is best used as designed. I've been on that road, tried to mod grinders, just to find the first impressions of the mod are often negated after a few days/weeks because there will be other shortcomings.

My point being is, if the grinder was designed from scratch - rather than other cases where manufacturers just have a commercial grinder and think of ways of adapting it to home use or single dose - classic example being the Eureka's "blow up system".

I don't think I'm questioning the grinder designed as per se. Maybe there's a reason for he chamber to be how it is. But we don't know that. Should the manufacturer have done extra work to minimise retention? Or maybe they've done that and concluded the bellows work out best? Or maybe they just borrowed someone's else's chamber and grinder design, combined with someone else's bellows ideas and put this grinder together focusing on a low price point, with minimum R&D (if any at all) being carried out? I don't know any of the answers, hence my posts.


----------



## DavecUK

I fitted the TiN burrs...


----------



## profesor_historia

DavecUK said:


> I fitted the TiN burrs...


So there are 3 options of burrs: the steel burrs, the Titanium and the SSP? Or I am confused . Thank you


----------



## DavecUK

profesor_historia said:


> So there are 3 options of burrs: the steel burrs, the Titanium and the SSP? Or I am confused   . Thank you


 Just first 2 that I know off...nuthin to stop people buying SSP. Any burrs that fit a Mazzer Mini E will fit.


----------



## profesor_historia

DavecUK said:


> Just first 2 that I know off...nuthin to stop people buying SSP. Any burrs that fit a Mazzer Mini E will fit.


Thanks@DavecUK , also fit the ones for Super Jolly? There is a dealer in Madrid selling Red Speed Lucidate for the SJ for 80€.


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> I fitted the TiN burrs...


 LOL Your working too slowly.

I have just heard that SJ burrs will fit a MM. People who aren't keen on the idea mention possible problems with light roasts as they take more effort to grind.


----------



## thodoris5321

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't think I'm questioning the grinder designed as per se. Maybe there's a reason for he chamber to be how it is. But we don't know that. Should the manufacturer have done extra work to minimise retention? Or maybe they've done that and concluded the bellows work out best? Or maybe they just borrowed someone's else's chamber and grinder design, combined with someone else's bellows ideas and put this grinder together focusing on a low price point, with minimum R&D (if any at all) being carried out? I don't know any of the answers, hence my posts.


 My speculation would be that the grinder needs the extra space for the air, meaning that having the extra air/space inside would pressure the motor less. Without the extra space the motor might burn out. Just a speculation though, don't trust me i'm not an engineer


----------



## Blues

DavecUK said:


> I fitted the TiN burrs...


 @DavecUK Please let us know how TiN burrs behave. I'm super interested if results are different to stock burrs.


----------



## Rob1

profesor_historia said:


> The mod was done in order to avoid the bellows, wasn't the designer intention. For this competitive price doesn't make any sense to look for defects etc, it is what we see, I am not at all bother by using the bellows as the retention is close to zero. It's not designer fault if someone wants to do a bit of an ugly mod, to be honest.
> It doesn't make any sense comparing to Niche either, in UE the price of a Niche is 750€ and the G-IOTA 399€ and maybe cheaper with a group by so.....not much of a thinking   .
> Besides, for the potential buyers in EU there is also the question of the after sale service. I know the customer service is very good but it's uncharted territory what happens in case I need a piece, or I have to send it back to be repaired etc.


 I doesn't make any sense comparing to the Niche because you wouldn't buy one instead of the other. Unless your criteria is so vague that it's just a matter of finding "a grinder", or in this case maybe one designed for single dosing. If it's really all about single dose vs hopper you're right that until now the Niche was the only thing designed for it in the price range and now there's another option, but comparing flats to conicals is in this context as one as an alternative to the other doesn't make sense. If the G-whatever was £500 and the Niche £300 you wouldn't buy the Niche if you wanted a large flat grinder and vice versa.


----------



## profesor_historia

Rob1 said:


> I doesn't make any sense comparing to the Niche because you wouldn't buy one instead of the other. Unless your criteria is so vague that it's just a matter of finding "a grinder", or in this case maybe one designed for single dosing. If it's really all about single dose vs hopper you're right that until now the Niche was the only thing designed for it in the price range and now there's another option, but comparing flats to conicals is in this context as one as an alternative to the other doesn't make sense. If the G-whatever was £500 and the Niche £300 you wouldn't buy the Niche if you wanted a large flat grinder and vice versa.


I would honestly buy the cheapest one between the 2, flat and conical it's the same to me, people don't buy the Niche because it's conical but because they think it's good, the marketing etc. G-IOTA is cheaper and I can buy it in UE without waiting 2 or more months, that's 2 points against Niche, simple as that.


----------



## cuprajake

Agree the niche is marketed fabulously, its with every major influencer on line


----------



## Rob1

profesor_historia said:


> I would honestly buy the cheapest one between the 2, flat and conical it's the same to me, people don't buy the Niche because it's conical but because they think it's good, the marketing etc. G-IOTA is cheaper and I can buy it in UE without waiting 2 or more months, that's 2 points against Niche, simple as that.


 You might be right, I've not seen any data collected on the subject that would allow anyone to say definitively why people are buying one grinder or another.

People might buy "an espresso machine" on the basis that it pump water through a basket of finely ground coffee rather than think in terms of HX Vs DB Vs Single boiler Vs Thermojet, E61 Vs Ring Vs Saturated Vs Passively Heated Vs Actively heated, PID Vs Thermostat etc etc and they might just look for the cheapest machine they can find that meets a certain standard without thinking about what will suit them best.


----------



## ajohn

A quote from homebarists on the Mazzer Mini which may be a touch more powerful than this one

Same problem
Mazzer Mini E Mod B + SSP 64 mm ( near 2900 shots with those burrs )
Sometimes, but not often, the motor stall, with some very hard lighted roast beans ( like ethiopian beans, or this kind of little hard african beans )

To be safe someone would need to produce Mazzer Mini SSP burrs. They would have a lower grinding rate than the SJ ones.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

For me as well, choice was between Niche and this grinder, and the G-iota won on price, availability as well as business model (something feels wrong about how they claim each buyer gets the "same" retail price, and they just cash in their gains when selling abroad while we pay extra VAT).

I really doubt that flat vs conical is really a big deciding factor for the buyers as this G-iota price point is more targeted as entry-level espresso grinder, so the buyers probably won't have a definite opinion yet.


----------



## naturalganja

ajohn said:


> A quote from homebarists on the Mazzer Mini which may be a touch more powerful than this one
> 
> Same problem
> Mazzer Mini E Mod B + SSP 64 mm ( near 2900 shots with those burrs )
> Sometimes, but not often, the motor stall, with some very hard lighted roast beans ( like ethiopian beans, or this kind of little hard african beans )
> 
> To be safe someone would need to produce Mazzer Mini SSP burrs. They would have a lower grinding rate than the SJ ones.


 Home-barista is selling the g-iota with italmill or ssp, do you think they haven't done their testing and just assumed "it would work"? Interested as this is what I have in mind for my personal use. If the only issue is an occasional stall with very light roast, which I imagine can be fixed by turning it off/on again, doesn't sound that bad for the price? 2900 shots, I mean for me this will take 2+ years to get there as I do 3 shots a day average


----------



## ajohn

naturalganja said:


> Home-barista is selling the g-iota with italmill or ssp


 Home-Barista is a forum as far as I am aware so post me a link where this option is offered.


----------



## thodoris5321

ajohn said:


> Home-Barista is a forum as far as I am aware so post me a link where this option is offered.


 homebarista.be 
I think the only one left available for pre-purchase is the white one without the ssp burrs.


----------



## naturalganja

ajohn said:


> Home-Barista is a forum as far as I am aware so post me a link where this option is offered.


 https://www.homebarista.be/shop/products/g-iota-coffee-grinder-wit-with-ssp-messen-red-speed


----------



## naturalganja

That's the Youtube Video about the mod the guy made to reduce retention without bellows. Notice how dark are the beans, quite the achievement considering this! Yet I'll probably stick with bellow!


----------



## ajohn

naturalganja said:


> https://www.homebarista.be/shop/products/g-iota-coffee-grinder-wit-with-ssp-messen-red-speed


 If you want to fit burrs for a 350w grinder to a 250w on then feel free. As far as I am aware the 64mm are only available for the Jolly.


----------



## cuprajake

And the eureka grinders. There 64mm too.


----------



## Baffo

This is going so beyond my understanding, but still. Please continue


----------



## cuprajake

What fitting bigger burrs?

Thw motor wont have the torque to turn/grind bigger burrs with beans


----------



## DavecUK

Iv'e used both the standard burrs and got the TiN burrs in, and it has not shown the remotest sign that it would stall on lighter beans. Sure Mine are lighter end of Medium, but it has absolutely no trouble grinding them. Of course we do have a nice healthy voltage in the UK.


----------



## ajohn

Northern_Monkey said:


> Not 100% convinced it adds a lot more than a SJ or Major with a Daniel Wong kit tbh. Cheaper mind, but arguably looks wise more divisive than the Niche, made me think of a metal bathroom pedal bin


 Going form 350w SJ to 250w on this one isn't a simple comparison. Personally I would wonder about the claims for the SSP burrs as well. The aim is to sweeten light roasts but will they really do this









That actually suggests an increase in fines. Then there is the question of brew style burrs.


----------



## naturalganja

ajohn said:


> If you want to fit burrs for a 350w grinder to a 250w on then feel free. As far as I am aware the 64mm are only available for the Jolly.


 I take it from a reputable suppliers that they thought it was working well enough to sell it... Theory is great buttesting is imo always better, especially in our very subjective coffee world. Of course in terms of equipment efficiency it's not subjective but I trust homebarista not to screw people over and they've been hands on for a while with that combination


----------



## naturalganja

ajohn said:


> Going form 350w SJ to 250w on this one isn't a simple comparison. Personally I would wonder about the claims for the SSP burrs as well. The aim is to sweeten light roasts but will they really do this
> 
> 
> View attachment 53866
> 
> 
> That actually suggests an increase in fines. Then there is the question of brew style burrs.


 I haven't myself tried them, but my friend has the unimodal and the standard and definitely agree with the claims (he has the Lagom), he loves to play with both and get different profiles with each of them. At espresso size the unimodal will produce a bit more fines, they will in turn reduce as you coarsen the grind


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> Going form 350w SJ to 250w on this one isn't a simple comparison. Personally I would wonder about the claims for the SSP burrs as well. The aim is to sweeten light roasts but will they really do this
> 
> 
> View attachment 53866
> 
> 
> That actually suggests an increase in fines. Then there is the question of brew style burrs.


 This actually shows the grinders were set differently, larger burr gap for Mazzer Std.


----------



## ajohn

MWJB said:


> This actually shows the grinders were set differently, larger burr gap for Mazzer Std.


 They don't say which Mazzer but assume it's the SJ as that what I was pricing on the Korean site.  Plain out of stock, coated options all $200. Maybe ~$30 more.

I can understand peoples fascination with this sort of thing but personally I'll give it a miss. One reason is that there are several ways of changing the taste of a bean. The other one is an inclination to feel that this particular area is a reason to buy type hype especially as even indicating that grain sizes are different is not an easy task. There is also the how much coffee had been put through those burrs before they were tested. That in itself can make a significant difference to taste.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> I can understand peoples fascination with this sort of thing but personally I'll give it a miss. One reason is that there are several ways of changing the taste of a bean. The other one is an inclination to feel that this particular area is a reason to buy type hype especially as even indicating that grain sizes are different is not an easy task. There is also the how much coffee had been put through those burrs before they were tested. That in itself can make a significant difference to taste.


 All this may be true, but a grind plot makes no determination on taste, just relative % weights at prescribed intervals, it's a diagnostic, not a taste-o-meter (Socratic themselves make no taste determinations). The plot shown only clearly shows 2 different grind settings, nothing more can be learned from it.


----------



## Aidy

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> For me as well, choice was between Niche and this grinder, and the G-iota won on price, availability as well as business model (something feels wrong about how they claim each buyer gets the "same" retail price, and they just cash in their gains when selling abroad while we pay extra VAT).
> 
> I really doubt that flat vs conical is really a big deciding factor for the buyers as this G-iota price point is more targeted as entry-level espresso grinder, so the buyers probably won't have a definite opinion yet.


 £400 isn't really entry level imo. Maybe entry level for "serious" espresso, but yeah, I started with a Gaggia MDF, which felt very high end at the time.


----------



## profesor_historia

If g-iota is entry level then Niche also is an entry level no?


----------



## cuprajake

@profesor_historia


----------



## Mrboots2u

profesor_historia said:


> If g-iota is entry level then Niche also is an entry level no?


 Semantics

But Sage grinder is entry level £500 to most people is the most they will ever spend on a grinder.


----------



## DavecUK

For those of you who have watched Galaxy Quest (if you haven't you should), I had to use the Omega 13 device. Please keep it friendly.


----------



## abelated

I'm glad to see more single dose, flat burr grinders. Though most of the discussion seems to suggest this is largely aimed at espresso.

Perhaps with the right burrs (or maybe the standard burrs?) this could be an interesting alternative to wilfa uniform, fellow ode, or others which I haven't heard about.


----------



## Baffo

abelated said:


> I'm glad to see more single dose, flat burr grinders. Though most of the discussion seems to suggest this is largely aimed at espresso.
> 
> Perhaps with the right burrs (or maybe the standard burrs?) this could be an interesting alternative to wilfa uniform, fellow ode, or others which I haven't heard about.


 I don't think anybody suggested this is aimed at espresso only. It's just a reflection of the fact that the market already has grinders for other brew methods in this price range (and below) such as those you mention, whereas similarly priced alternatives for espresso are rather slim (ie Niche for UK). Clearly this has espresso peeps excited..


----------



## Blues

There Is also ETZ but it is more like grind by weight. I heard they are very capable grinders. Much better then baratza sette.

https://etzinger-ag.com/grinders-en


----------



## Aidy

Is there any word on if bellabarista are going to stock a plain black version?


----------



## dutchy101

Giving this grinder some very serious consideration. Bought my first set up in June and currently own the Sage SGP (paired with a Bambino)- it's in mint condition and I was planning on grabbing a Niche when I upgraded. The price-point and presumably availability of this which I can probably get for shelling out £250 after selling my SGP are making this very tempting, although think I'll wait until a nicer range of colours become available.

I have no issues with my SGP, but I expect I'll see a vast improvement on the coffee with this grinder.


----------



## Evoh

Aidy said:


> Is there any word on if bellabarista are going to stock a plain black version?


 Looks like is available now but the pictures are of the white one.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/the-solo-single-dose-grinder-metallic black.html


----------



## Baffo

Evoh said:


> Looks like is available now but the pictures are of the white one.
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/the-solo-single-dose-grinder-metallic black.html


 I wonder if the "metallic" refers to this version.. We won't know until they update the pictures..

<img data-ratio="103.20" width="500" alt="d1dc43650922b782med.png.f3cba0d7b20b6edef119034f04e6d19b.png" data-fileid="53773" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_02/d1dc43650922b782med.png.f3cba0d7b20b6edef119034f04e6d19b.png" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


----------



## Zoltan

Baffo said:


> I wonder if the "metallic" refers to this version.. We won't know until they update the pictures..


 I hope this is the metallic black. For me, a grinder is black and don't want to go for the white or carbon one


----------



## Baffo

Evoh said:


> Looks like is available now but the pictures are of the white one.
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/the-solo-single-dose-grinder-metallic black.html


 Well they're definitely not flying off the shelves in any colour right now.

I myself am not in a rush as I have snatched a Niche and will take my sweet time deciding - I wonder why so much alleged interest and yet so few people have purchased.


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> Well they're definitely not flying off the shelves in any colour right now.
> 
> I myself am not in a rush as I have snatched a Niche and will take my sweet time deciding - I wonder why so much alleged interest and yet so few people have purchased.


 I'm waiting for them to get back to me about applying the forum code to the not-carbon versions.


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> I wonder if the "metallic" refers to this version.. We won't know until they update the pictures..


 I'm kinda assuming it just means gloss black.


----------



## profesor_historia

Aidy said:


> I'm kinda assuming it just means gloss black.


This is quite beautiful. I understand it's all metal.


----------



## HVL87

I think it's more likely to be this:


----------



## profesor_historia

HVL87 said:


> I think it's more likely to be this:
> <img alt="image.thumb.jpeg.1dfa0b21e9cb316b0e3a6d1ae52ba9b9.jpeg" data-fileid="53948" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_03/image.thumb.jpeg.1dfa0b21e9cb316b0e3a6d1ae52ba9b9.jpeg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


----------



## thodoris5321

There are news about the european distribution of the grinder. For what i understand from the polish forums with google translation.
The official distributor for Europe will be the belgian homebarista.be, and the grinder will be under the name G-Iota. They have setted a minimum price in which others cannot sell for less. 
Standard burrs Black or White ~400 Euro,
Standard burrs Red, Yellow, Light Blue, Light Green, Brown, Cream ~430,
Standard burrs Carbon looking ~480,
Titanium burrs Silver colour (very tempting for me) ~480,
SSP burrs and White or Black ~660,
SSP burrs and coloured ~690

Next preorders will be for late April-early May.


----------



## Baffo

thodoris5321 said:


> There are news about the european distribution of the grinder. For what i understand from the polish forums with google translation.
> The official distributor for Europe will be the belgian homebarista.be, and the grinder will be under the name G-Iota. They have setted a minimum price in which others cannot sell for less.
> Standard burrs Black or White ~400 Euro,
> Standard burrs Red, Yellow, Light Blue, Light Green, Brown, Cream ~430,
> Standard burrs Carbon looking ~480,
> Titanium burrs Silver colour (very tempting for me) ~480,
> SSP burrs and White or Black ~660,
> SSP burrs and coloured ~690
> 
> Next preorders will be for late April-early May.


 I wonder why would the carbon cost 80 EUR more than the Black or White when they have the same burrs, same spec, same materials, it's just a different film covering it?


----------



## profesor_historia

Baffo said:


> I wonder why would the carbon cost 80 EUR more than the Black or White when they have the same burrs, same spec, same materials, it's just a different film covering it?


Good question


----------



## Aidy

I'd happily pay more for the black/silver version, and I don't really *need* a new grinder. I'm a bit torn about whether to wait or not.


----------



## thodoris5321

Baffo said:


> I wonder why would the carbon cost 80 EUR more than the Black or White when they have the same burrs, same spec, same materials, it's just a different film covering it?


 No clue. Maybe they think that it looks awesome?


----------



## Bicky

You'd have to give me 80 EUR to take the carbon one 😏



Aidy said:


> I'm waiting for them to get back to me about applying the forum code to the not-carbon versions.


 Surely they just have to update the website to make this the case...


----------



## Aidy

Bicky said:


> Surely they just have to update the website to make this the case...


 Maybe, but... it still needs actually doing


----------



## thodoris5321

I've also read that when they say titanium burrs they mean like super jolly's duranium. I don't know anything about burrs though..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

thodoris5321 said:


> super jolly's duranium. I don't know anything about burrs though..


 I read that as super jolly's geranium.

Don't know much about flowers either! 🤣

(sorry, just a bit of a jolly laugh) 🙂


----------



## Mrboots2u

thodoris5321 said:


> I've also read that when they say titanium burrs they mean like super jolly's duranium. I don't know anything about burrs though..


 I am no expert either , titanium coating primarily for me extends burr life, which seems a little academic in a home grinder.

I have never seen any real hard data that they improve extraction or cup quality but am happy to be proven wrong ( same with red speed tbh)


----------



## Evan

Baffo said:


> I wonder if the "metallic" refers to this version.. We won't know until they update the pictures..


 I talked to the supplier in china when I was ordering my own (Canada Based) and they said that this black chrome version was a prototype and they're only making the metal in matte black at the moment


----------



## Zoltan




----------



## Zoltan

Hi,

If anyone has already tried/tested/saw it in real life: can you tell me if it's quieter/louder/roughly same as the Mignon Specialita or XL?


----------



## MHeath

I've ordered a metallic black, currently using a mahlkonig Vario so hoping to see a big improvement!


----------



## Zoltan

thodoris5321 said:


> There are news about the european distribution of the grinder. For what i understand from the polish forums with google translation.
> The official distributor for Europe will be the belgian homebarista.be, and the grinder will be under the name G-Iota. They have setted a minimum price in which others cannot sell for less.
> Standard burrs Black or White ~400 Euro,
> Standard burrs Red, Yellow, Light Blue, Light Green, Brown, Cream ~430,
> Standard burrs Carbon looking ~480,
> Titanium burrs Silver colour (very tempting for me) ~480,
> SSP burrs and White or Black ~660,
> SSP burrs and coloured ~690
> 
> Next preorders will be for late April-early May.


 May I ask what is the main difference between the normal and SSP burrs? Are SSP burrs so much better and worth the extra ~260?


----------



## naturalganja

Evan said:


> I talked to the supplier in china when I was ordering my own (Canada Based) and they said that this black chrome version was a prototype and they're only making the metal in matte black at the moment


 I'm about to order one from SIngapore in matte black as well (Canada base too). Did you already order yours? Where from if I may ask? And how much was the total order including shipping?


----------



## Evan

naturalganja said:


> I'm about to order one from SIngapore in matte black as well (Canada base too). Did you already order yours? Where from if I may ask? And how much was the total order including shipping?


 I ordered mine from Feilai on Alibaba in china, it came up to about $710 CAD, shipping was $120USD (it hurt to see it being so expensive) they also said they would declare it as $150 USD so hopefully no duties


----------



## naturalganja

Evan said:


> I ordered mine from Feilai on Alibaba in china, it came up to about $710 CAD, shipping was $120USD (it hurt to see it being so expensive) they also said they would declare it as $150 USD so hopefully no duties


 I know! It's always the way from Asia... Couple of years ago my steamer from Indonesia was less expensive than the shipping! I'm waiting to hear back from my guy in Singapore, we'll see what it comes up to!

And on Alibaba you have been able to order only one? I thought there was a minimum order of 2


----------



## DavecUK

Evan said:


> I talked to the supplier in china when I was ordering my own (Canada Based) and they said that this black chrome version was a prototype and they're only making the metal in matte black at the moment


 Yup, it's called the Chinese bait and switch marketing


----------



## Evan

naturalganja said:


> I know! It's always the way from Asia... Couple of years ago my steamer from Indonesia was less expensive than the shipping! I'm waiting to hear back from my guy in Singapore, we'll see what it comes up to!
> 
> And on Alibaba you have been able to order only one? I thought there was a minimum order of 2


 Yeah I went into the order thinking they would only sell orders of two, but when I asked it was totally okay for just one (I think they changed the ad after to make it just one). I also asked about customization and they said you had to make a large order (like 100) to have customizations on the colour. Only thing I totally forgot to ask about was if they came with the titanium coated burrs, I guess we'll just have to wait to find out


----------



## Aidy

DavecUK said:


> Yup, it's called the Chinese bait and switch marketing


 Given as the chrome version has only appeared on forums, and all the actual places selling them don't have images of them, I'm not sure that's fair.


----------



## DavecUK

Aidy said:


> Given as the chrome version has only appeared on forums, and all the actual places selling them don't have images of them, I'm not sure that's fair.


 Yes it is fair, this is how the companies market all the time on Alibaba


----------



## Aidy

DavecUK said:


> Yes it is fair, this is how the companies market all the time on Alibaba


 If that version was actually on alibaba, then... maybe. But I can't find it anywhere in their listing. I don't think it's fair to say that they've baited people with it.

I actually figured it was a photoshop render by a forumite somewhere, to demonstrate what it could look like, rather than an actual available thing.


----------



## DavecUK

Aidy said:


> If that version was actually on alibaba, then... maybe. But I can't find it anywhere in their listing. I don't think it's fair to say that they've baited people with it.
> 
> I actually figured it was a photoshop render by a forumite somewhere, to demonstrate what it could look like, rather than an actual available thing.


 The listings change all the time...It's a common tactic to offer a product in lots of options and colours...then when they get the enquiries it's only available in 3 colours not 7 and 2 finishes not 3 and with this display not the other 2 shown etc.. etc..

This gains the interest, gets the enquiry and works better than there are 2 colours and 1 option....believe me I have seen this many times over the years with various coffee related products.


----------



## MWJB

Aidy said:


> If that version was actually on alibaba, then... maybe. But I can't find it anywhere in their listing. I don't think it's fair to say that they've baited people with it.
> 
> I actually figured it was a photoshop render by a forumite somewhere, to demonstrate what it could look like, rather than an actual available thing.


 Whether on Alibaba or not, it's not unusual for a marketplace to shift the colours on products artificially, I see it all the time on clothing...sure you can have a photo with a different coloured garment, but when all the folds & creases are the same, you get a clues as to what is going on.


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> I know these are renderings, but still, literally all of these look better than carbon fibre. Even pink.
> View attachment 53715


 Wait, though... if it's a duck, then... what's the toggle switch?


----------



## Baffo

Aidy said:


> Wait, though... if it's a duck, then... what's the toggle switch?


----------



## DavecUK

MWJB said:


> Whether on Alibaba or not, it's not unusual for a marketplace to shift the colours on products artificially, I see it all the time on clothing...sure you can have a photo with a different coloured garment, but when all the folds & creases are the same, you get a clues as to what is going on. 🙂


 On Baffos image, the TiN burrs, you can't get those from the manufacturer either, they have to be sourced from Italy by the Retailer


----------



## Mrboots2u

Zoltan said:


> May I ask what is the main difference between the normal and SSP burrs? Are SSP burrs so much better and worth the extra ~260?


 I'd be looking at what the alignment is like on this grinder, otherwise expensive burrs won't deliver any potential promise in the cup . Alignment is harder to get right with a flat burr grinder

Geometry of the burr are diffferent

https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/ssp-64mm-brew-burrs-in-espresso-range-t60429.html


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> This gains the interest, gets the enquiry and works better than there are 2 colours and 1 option....believe me I have seen this many times over the years with various coffee related products.


 The worst problem with items from China can be first orders and samples fine and then ...............................


----------



## Blues

@DavecUK correct me if I'm wrong but I think I saw "calibrate" sign on top. How do you calibrate and when is it necessary?


----------



## DavecUK

Blues said:


> @DavecUK correct me if I'm wrong but I think I saw "calibrate" sign on top. How do you calibrate and when is it necessary?


 Did you...whereabouts....if you can link me to the photo...I have not spotted one myself but perhaps I missed some obvious way to move the indicator dial?


----------



## Rincewind

abelated said:


> I'm glad to see more single dose, flat burr grinders.


 *Me too...it's all good*, makes for interesting times...hopefully more manufacturers (*) will jump on the "*lower-price*" bandwaggon which gives people *"more" choice for a "given-price-bracket"*....that way peeps don't have to become sheep and keep following the sheep crowd (because that's all there is in said price range).

(*) more manufacturers also means "more retailers" (hopefully)....everyone loves a choice :classic_biggrin:


----------



## Bicky

There were a few comments earlier in this thread about Eureka working on an affordable single dosing grinder, is there any weight to those comments, or was it just some wishful thinking?

I'd really like to see them come out with something....


----------



## thodoris5321

Bicky said:


> There were a few comments earlier in this thread about Eureka working on an affordable single dosing grinder, is there any weight to those comments, or was it just some wishful thinking?
> 
> I'd really like to see them come out with something....


 They have just left a hint on one comment on instagram that was about bellows for mignon XL, if i remember correctly.


----------



## Blues

@DavecUK sorry my bad Dave, you didn't miss anything it was me looking at bad quality pictures 🤦‍♂️.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Rincewind said:


> *Me too...it's all good*, makes for interesting times...hopefully more manufacturers (*) will jump on the "*lower-price*" bandwaggon which gives people *"more" choice for a "given-price-bracket"*....that way peeps don't have to become sheep and keep following the sheep crowd (because that's all there is in said price range).
> 
> (*) more manufacturers also means "more retailers" (hopefully)....everyone loves a choice :classic_biggrin:


 I agree more grinders focussed on the home market user at better prices is good for everyone .

Choice is always better and drives innovation,

As an aside I don't think using the term sheep to refer to a group of people who buy a product you choose not to buy ( tongue in cheap or not ) is really needed in this context .


----------



## DavecUK

It does recharge you know.....


----------



## naturalganja

Done! DF64 (matte black) ordered from The Gluons, shipping next week to Canada. Probably gonna play with the italmill first and then get the SSP not too far down the road. This combined with my Commandante and red clix should be pretty versatile, excited to play with it.


----------



## StevePNS

Been looking at this or the niche as I don't have a grinder yet, can't see how the 2 compare? Has anyone done any testing to see how they compare?


----------



## naturalganja

StevePNS said:


> Been looking at this or the niche as I don't have a grinder yet, can't see how the 2 compare? Has anyone done any testing to see how they compare?


 Very different grinders but since they are pretty much the unique choices at that price point for single dose grinder they are often compared even though right now the DF64 still being "new", there isn't much content about it out there, let alone a side by side comparison with the Niche.

One is conical burr, one is a flat. One is proven to be great, one still has to prove itself but is very promising, especially at that price point, possibility to upgrade and availability... I ordered it because I believe it fits my needs. It depends what you are after, what you are going to use it for


----------



## StevePNS

naturalganja said:


> Very different grinders but since they are pretty much the unique choices at that price point for single dose grinder they are often compared even though right now the DF64 still being "new", there isn't much content about it out there, let alone a side by side comparison with the Niche.
> 
> One is conical burr, one is a flat. One is proven to be great, one still has to prove itself but is very promising, especially at that price point, possibility to upgrade and availability... I ordered it because I believe it fits my needs. It depends what you are after, what you are going to use it for


 Thanks - it'll mainly get used for expresso & milky drinks. From what I've read both look as if they'll cope. 
Now I just to find a machine that suits!


----------



## higbert

I was interested but I am not sure I could look at a grinder every day showing bad grammar. The "burrs will in collide". Plus it should be "below 0" rather than "over 0", plus that comma before "or" is superfluous.

I make all my coffee purchasing decisions on the grammatical correctness of the supplier, of course.


----------



## Baffo

@higbert at least they seem to have gotten the numbers right!


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> @higbert at least they seem to have gotten the numbers right!


 Except they're upside down compared with the text


----------



## Baffo

@Aidy I think the lack of care to these details make it all the more interesting.. Will the same apply to the engineering side? Will some screws, gaskets and threads be upside down as well? Will the burrs "in collide"?


----------



## higbert

Aidy said:


> Except they're upside down compared with the text


----------



## Qporzk

naturalganja said:


> Done! DF64 (matte black) ordered from The Gluons, shipping next week to Canada. Probably gonna play with the italmill first and then get the SSP not too far down the road. This combined with my Commandante and red clix should be pretty versatile, excited to play with it.


 Where exactly did you order this from? And are there concerns with it working on 120V? I haven't been able to find much info on this detail...


----------



## Bicky

If the BB website is anything to go by, it looks like these issues have been ironed out.


----------



## dutchy101

Not keen on the font on the numbers I must say.


----------



## naturalganja

Qporzk said:


> Where exactly did you order this from? And are there concerns with it working on 120V? I haven't been able to find much info on this detail...


 I've ordered it through The Gruons in Singapore, David is really awesome and responsive. And I ordered a 110v. Most suppliers right now offer 220v as they're based in Europe but when they order off China they can choose 110v or 220v, so no I am not concerned


----------



## naturalganja

higbert said:


> I was interested but I am not sure I could look at a grinder every day showing bad grammar. The "burrs will in collide". Plus it should be "below 0" rather than "over 0", plus that comma before "or" is superfluous.
> 
> I make all my coffee purchasing decisions on the grammatical correctness of the supplier, of course.


 Hahaha I hear that! I'm french and live in canada where everything has to be translated in both languages... You wouldn't believe the amount of poor translations you see on big brands products, makes you wonder how hard is it to find someone who could have properly translated the one sentence you were looking at... Seems like a lot of companies don't want to spend the $$ and go off google...


----------



## naturalganja

Bicky said:


> If the BB website is anything to go by, it looks like these issues have been ironed out.
> 
> View attachment 54025


 Is this one with italmill burr? cause 399£ seems steep unless it has more expensive burr... I just ordered mine for $375 USD with The Gruons, so about £270 + $100 USD for shipping to Canada. So all together, £340.


----------



## Bicky

I guess that's the mark-up you pay for buying from a reputable UK based company who offer a 2 year RTB warranty? Seems reasonable to me tbh.

For reference I bought my JX Pro from BB for £189, but I know it can be bought direct for closer to £160 delivered 🤷‍♂️


----------



## DavecUK

All this talk about the numbers...I was more concerned with calculating how many Microns the burrs move closer or farther apart for each mark when you twist the collar? I missed the big picture....

@Bicky Thank god they ironed out the issues....😉


----------



## Aidy

naturalganja said:


> Is this one with italmill burr? cause 399£ seems steep unless it has more expensive burr... I just ordered mine for $375 USD with The Gruons, so about £270 + $100 USD for shipping to Canada. So all together, £340.


 But also + taxes ?


----------



## higbert

Bicky said:


> If the BB website is anything to go by, it looks like these issues have been ironed out.
> 
> View attachment 54025


 Interesting. The image I used with the bad wording was from the BB website as well - the black version rather than the carbon one. Maybe different finishes have different text? Bit of a lottery if you order one....


----------



## ajohn

naturalganja said:


> $375 USD with The Gruons,


 Have you a web link for this company? Curiosity more than anything else but due to stock levels of some things in the Uk no choice other than to import,

forgot to add not this grinder though.


----------



## MHeath

DavecUK said:


> I fitted the TiN burrs...


 I've pre ordered one from BB, so am I right in thinking it comes with italburrs? ssp or Tin burrs are then optional upgrades? What difference do the upgraded burrs make?


----------



## DavecUK

MHeath said:


> I've pre ordered one from BB, so am I right in thinking it comes with italburrs? ssp or Tin burrs are then optional upgrades? What difference do the upgraded burrs make?


 I'll tell you when I've finished testing them.


----------



## MHeath

DavecUK said:


> I'll tell you when I've finished testing them.


 Thank you!


----------



## naturalganja

ajohn said:


> Have you a web link for this company? Curiosity more than anything else but due to stock levels of some things in the Uk no choice other than to import,
> 
> forgot to add not this grinder though.


 He doesn't have a website but here is his instagram https://www.instagram.com/thegluons/?hl=en

I wasn't super confident at first because of this but kept seeing his name popping up on coffee forums as well as sevral coffee shops mentioning they go products from him.


----------



## naturalganja

Aidy said:


> But also + taxes ?


 Taxes are included in the $375 USD. And for import fees it will depend on what I ask him to declare. Probably $100USD so in Ontario that will translate to about $40 CAD import fees, so still very affordable compared to other listings. After I understand the preference to go with a bigger company as well


----------



## Aidy

naturalganja said:


> Taxes are included in the $375 USD. And for import fees it will depend on what I ask him to declare. Probably $100USD so in Ontario that will translate to about $40 CAD import fees, so still very affordable compared to other listings. After I understand the preference to go with a bigger company as well


 Right, but... you can't say that £399 is really over the odds when you're committing fraud to get it for £365!


----------



## naturalganja

Aidy said:


> Right, but... you can't say that £399 is really over the odds when you're committing fraud to get it for £365!


 hahaha sure. Then if doing it "legal", it would be $461USD vs $556USD with BB... Not sure if BB charge shipping or not but if yes that would on top too.


----------



## Aidy

naturalganja said:


> hahaha sure. Then if doing it "legal", it would be $461USD vs $556USD with BB... Not sure if BB charge shipping or not but if yes that would on top too.


 But you had 375+100 USD which is already > 461


----------



## kico

I'm really curious too!

I haven't read properly into the difference between the upgraded burrs. Can somebody explain or at least point me in the right direction.

What comes with the £399 model from BB? Standard Burrs?

What other burr options are there, and what's the benefit of each?

Can I buy it with upgraded burrs right off the bat?

Thinking of trying this out as I've heard flat burrs help remove that burnt taste for darker roasts, and since I take my coffee black - I may prefer flat burrs.

Would be easy to sell my Niche at the moment with little or no loss (only 4-5 months old).


----------



## Rob1

kico said:


> Thinking of trying this out as I've heard flat burrs help remove that burnt taste for darker roasts, and since I take my coffee black - I may prefer flat burrs.


 Pulling shots at lower ratios and shorter times will help avoid extracting too much of a bad thing. You're basically trying to lower your extraction. Flat burrs don't remove a burned taste but you may well still prefer flat burrs. Worth a shot.


----------



## naturalganja

Aidy said:


> But you had 375+100 USD which is already > 461


 Yes sorry this is without shipping as I was comparing to BB cost which if you are outside of EU is an additional $70USD + import fees.

No matter how you cut it BB will be more expensive but you have the peace of mind of going through a reputable company with I'm sure a great customer service behind it.

The Gluons is small but so far David has been super responsive and really want to do good. I'll have to compare both warranties as well


----------



## naturalganja

kico said:


> I'm really curious too!
> 
> I haven't read properly into the difference between the upgraded burrs. Can somebody explain or at least point me in the right direction.
> 
> What comes with the £399 model from BB? Standard Burrs?
> 
> What other burr options are there, and what's the benefit of each?
> 
> Can I buy it with upgraded burrs right off the bat?
> 
> Thinking of trying this out as I've heard flat burrs help remove that burnt taste for darker roasts, and since I take my coffee black - I may prefer flat burrs.
> 
> Would be easy to sell my Niche at the moment with little or no loss (only 4-5 months old).


 So first of all to understand burr differences I like to point out to the Lagom page which is very well explained and very similar in terms of designs to the DF64. Friends of mine who own it as well as different set of burrs agree that it would be difficult to describe it better than they did it here https://www.option-o.com/faq-lagom-p64

I know homebarista.be offer the option to buy the grinder with SSP right away, not sure for BB and definitely not with The Gluons, I am buying the SSP with another supplier.


----------



## Aidy

naturalganja said:


> Yes sorry this is without shipping as I was comparing to BB cost which if you are outside of EU is an additional $70USD + import fees.
> 
> No matter how you cut it BB will be more expensive but you have the peace of mind of going through a reputable company with I'm sure a great customer service behind it.
> 
> The Gluons is small but so far David has been super responsive and really want to do good. I'll have to compare both warranties as well


 Right. Yeah. It's obviously not going to be a sensible import chain going CN->UK->CA.

Given that your landed price is pretty similar to the UK price with BB acting as importers/resellers, it seems like a pretty good price from BB to me.


----------



## naturalganja

Aidy said:


> Right. Yeah. It's obviously not going to be a sensible import chain going CN->UK->CA.
> 
> Given that your landed price is pretty similar to the UK price with BB acting as importers/resellers, it seems like a pretty good price from BB to me.


 Don't give me wrong it is a good price, this grinder is a great price no matter what, I just prefer to save the extra $100 USD as it pays for half of my SSP burrs


----------



## profesor_historia

La petite Sheila said:


> spammer....fake id...drinking too much cooffe


 Je ne parlais pas Français I am afraid. What do you mean by rigorous tests?@DavecUK has been using it the last weeks and he's happy with it, his opinions are more than enough for me.


----------



## naturalganja

La petite Sheila said:


> Fake Account


 C'est un peu tot pour les tests "rigoureux" car c'est encore un nouveau produit mais si tu cherches dans les 20 pages de cette thread, surtout au debut, il y a un lien sur des tests en polonais que tu peux traduire. Il y a aussi de plus en plus de reviews sur youtube et d'autres forums comme home-barista. Perso je l'ai commandé alors on verra bien mais je suis confiant!


----------



## naturalganja

1test said:


> Fake account


 I meant "rigorous" testing by third party such as Socratic Coffee, independant reviewers etc... Right now you cannot find these things, and if these tests have already been done, they don't seem to be available to the public


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> Yeah...it's not what I found... I found things very comparable to the Niche on dose consistency, retention and exchange.
> 
> Perhaps slightly higher on total retention, but similar on exchange. For those who want an alternative that's a flat burr, then I think they have it.


 When will you be releasing a full report Dave?


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> When will you be releasing a full report Dave?


 Not a full one, but will get round to doing a mini review soon.

Well one of my Mini reviews....


----------



## Baffo

DavecUK said:


> Not a full one, but will get round to doing a mini review soon.
> 
> Well one of my Mini reviews....


 So we can expect some 10h of footage?

One grinder to rule them all..


----------



## DavecUK

@Baffo I wish...however it is just a sub £400 flat burr grinder... with very low retention and exchange.


----------



## ajohn

Baffo said:


> One grinder to rule them all..


 It wont be as there is no such thing.


----------



## Baffo

I thought that by this point people would know that I am hardly serious, ever.

I was just referring to the fact that Dave was going to issue his mini review which will be 1200-page long on his blog, and 10h long on YouTube. Which made me think of a long saga, ie the Lord of the Rings, where there is such a quote.

My jokes are hardly funny to begin with, but when I have to explain them because people think I was being serious, even less so.


----------



## ajohn

Baffo said:


> My jokes are hardly funny to begin with, but when I have to explain them because people think I was being serious, even less so.


 Perhaps my comment was for the uninitiated.


----------



## Aidy

Looks pretty alright in matt silver, imo -

__
http://instagr.am/p/CLW0tfHBAQX/


----------



## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> My jokes are hardly funny to begin with, but when I have to explain them because people think I was being serious, even less so.


 I think you're funny... just unappreciated.


----------



## dutchy101

Aidy said:


> Looks pretty alright in matt silver, imo -
> 
> __
> http://instagr.am/p/CLW0tfHBAQX/


 Yes, that's very nice!


----------



## RobbieTheTruth

Rob1 said:


> You might be right, I've not seen any data collected on the subject that would allow anyone to say definitively why people are buying one grinder or another.
> 
> People might buy "an espresso machine" on the basis that it pump water through a basket of finely ground coffee rather than think in terms of HX Vs DB Vs Single boiler Vs Thermojet, E61 Vs Ring Vs Saturated Vs Passively Heated Vs Actively heated, PID Vs Thermostat etc etc and they might just look for the cheapest machine they can find that meets a certain standard without thinking about what will suit them best.


 Yeah, with respect I also disagree with your initial post.

I bought the Niche. If it broke next year and I had £550 returned, I'd probably buy the Solo (if reviews are good). If it turns out the Solo isn't great, I'd buy the Niche again.

I'd say for anyone with a £500 budget who likes a single doser - it's between these two.


----------



## RobbieTheTruth

Aidy said:


> £400 isn't really entry level imo. Maybe entry level for "serious" espresso, but yeah, I started with a Gaggia MDF, which felt very high end at the time.


 It's kind of entry level once you've had a good read of the forum, had your budget shot down and completely revised your expectations!

I joined here, prepared to pay £300 for what I presumed was going to the ultimate in home coffee.

Basically learnt I'd have to double my budget to get a grinder, never mind the machine haha.

But you're right. It's entry level, but only once you've taken a serious deep dive into why you can't just use a £80 Krups, and why a Sage might not be that good.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Again for the average coffee drinker , 90 percent who don't frequent here btw, £500 is not entry level , its end of purchases . 
Forums drive upgrade , people left To their own I suspect are generally happier with their purchases .


----------



## RobbieTheTruth

Mrboots2u said:


> Again for the average coffee drinker , 90 percent who don't frequent here btw, £500 is not entry level , its end of purchases .
> Forums drive upgrade , people left To their own I suspect are generally happier with their purchases .


 Agree - it's hovering just above entry level for the small percentage of enthusiasts who read this forum and haven't dipped their toe in yet.

Actual entry level in the real world is Krups


----------



## profesor_historia

RobbieTheTruth said:


> Yeah, with respect I also disagree with your initial post.
> I bought the Niche. If it broke next year and I had £550 returned, I'd probably buy the Solo (if reviews are good). If it turns out the Solo isn't great, I'd buy the Niche again.
> I'd say for anyone with a £500 budget who likes a single doser - it's between these two.


There are more, for example the Major of@Cuprajake or some Ceados with bellows etc. Don't want to believe that only 2 grinders offer very low retention.


----------



## RobbieTheTruth

profesor_historia said:


> There are more, for example the Major of@Cuprajake or some Ceados with bellows etc. Don't want to believe that only 2 grinders offer very low retention.


 Can you get a Caedo with bellows for £500?

What's a Major of Cuprajake?


----------



## profesor_historia

RobbieTheTruth said:


> Can you get a Caedo with bellows for £500?
> What's a Major of Cuprajake?


Mazzer Major. There is only a grinder which has Major in its name







. Ceado second hand of course.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

RobbieTheTruth said:


> anyone with a £500 budget who likes a single doser - it's between these two


 as of now! My wild guess is, we would have more choices this year; may be some like Eureka Mignon in this price bracket.


----------



## RobbieTheTruth

profesor_historia said:


> Mazzer Major. There is only a grinder which has Major in its name   . Ceado second hand of course.


 Ah right ok. I'm talking £500, off the shelf options


----------



## RobbieTheTruth

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> as of now! My wild guess is, we would have more choices this year; may be some like Eureka Mignon in this price bracket.


 Agreed!


----------



## thodoris5321

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> as of now! My wild guess is, we would have more choices this year; may be some like Eureka Mignon in this price bracket.


 I've also found one SD grinder on youtube, named "Kopi Deva" with 64 flat burrs, starting on kickstarter in May, claims under 0,1gr retention. Must cost higher based on it's design and only though.


----------



## MWJB

thodoris5321 said:


> I've also found one SD grinder on youtube, named "Kopi Deva" with 64 flat burrs, starting on kickstarter in May, claims under 0,1gr retention. Must cost higher based on it's design and only though.


 Simple analysis - under 0.1g retention is not possible with a SD grinder. Put it down to the 'magic of youtube/vendors who can reverse the laws of nature'. If they could really do this, they would be working on particle accelerators & landings on Mercury, not kitchen appliances.


----------



## profesor_historia

@DavecUK I am curious, sorry if it's been asked already, how would you rate the noise of G-iota compared with Niche or Eureka Atom for example? Thanks


----------



## thodoris5321

MWJB said:


> Simple analysis - under 0.1g retention is not possible with a SD grinder. Put it down to the 'magic of youtube/vendors who can reverse the laws of nature'. If they could really do this, they would be working on particle accelerators & landings on Mercury, not kitchen appliances. 🙂


 Weren't grinders in Hoffman's test that were under 0.1 retention though? Like the monolith and the levercraft. The others was stated to be near too. Unless he measures it in a different way, idk.


----------



## Aidy

thodoris5321 said:


> I've also found one SD grinder on youtube, named "Kopi Deva" with 64 flat burrs, starting on kickstarter in May, claims under 0,1gr retention. Must cost higher based on it's design and only though.







It also appears to be able to turn about 4 beans into 50g of grounds...


----------



## MWJB

thodoris5321 said:


> Weren't grinders in Hoffman's test though that were under 0.1 retention though? Like the monolith and the levercraft. The others was stated to be near too. Unless he measures it in a different way, idk.


 I'm glad you asked....

No they weren't.

Three grinds isn't enough to evaluate a grinder that should be expected to grind 1000 doses a year at least. 10 grinds per grinder would be minimum requirement, 100 would be better.

Hoffmann test:

Lagom 64 retention .11g dose consistency, +/-.08g to 1 stdev over 3 grinds = +/-0.19g at 1 stedev (68%), or assuming the constant average, +/-0.45g at 95% confidence.

Monolith Max 0.07g dose consistency, +/- 0.03 to 1 stdev over 3 grinds = +/-0.1g at 1 stdev (68%), or +/-0.2g at 95% confidence.

I have no idea why he didn't record 10 samples per grinder. Another member posted Monolith flat data that gave +/-0.33g dose consistency at 95% confidence, which is very good.

If anyone claims +/-0.1g dose consistency, ask how they did it. When you do, it won't be +/-0.1g any more.

(In the interests of real world value, +/- 0.5g is good enough, and chuck another bean in to allow top/tailing the dose. If that sounds like pedantry, you're not the sort of person who cares about +/- 0.1g dose consistency in the first place...you're just reading off your Top Trump cards.)


----------



## dutchy101

> 13 minutes ago, Aidy said:


 I can't even imagine what my wife would think if that turned up and I wasn't home to explain myself


----------



## thodoris5321

MWJB said:


> I'm glad you asked....
> 
> No they weren't.
> 
> Three grinds isn't enough to evaluate a grinder that should be expected to grind 1000 doses a year at least. 10 grinds per grinder would be minimum requirement, 100 would be better.
> 
> Hoffmann test:
> 
> Lagom 64 retention .11g dose consistency, +/-.08g to 1 stdev over 3 grinds = +/-0.19g at 1 stedev (68%), or assuming the constant average, +/- +/-0.45g at 95% confidence.
> 
> Monolith Max 0.07g dose consistency, +/- 0.03 to 1 stdev over 3 grinds = +/-0.1g at 1 stdev (68%), or +/-0.2g at 95% confidence.
> 
> I have no idea why he didn't record 10 samples per grinder. Another member posted Monolith flat data that gave +/-0.33g dose consistency at 95% confidence, which is very good.
> 
> If anyone claims +/-0.1g dose consistency, ask how they did it. When you do, it won't be +/-0.1g any more.
> 
> (In the interests of real world value, +/- 0.5g is good enough, and chuck another bean in to allow top/tailing the dose. If that sounds like pedantry, you're not the sort of person who cares about +/- 0.1g dose consistency in the first place...you're just reading off your Top Trump cards.)


 That's really good info to know, thanks for sharing.

On other note, someone has written a review about the g-iota on the Polish forums with some photos.


----------



## profesor_historia

@DavecUK did you notice any difference between the normal burrs and the Titanium ones? I am organising a group buy and I am recolecting info







.
Thanks.


----------



## dutchy101

profesor_historia said:


> @DavecUK did you notice any difference between the normal burrs and the Titanium ones? I am organising a group buy and I am recolecting info   .
> Thanks.


 Is the group buy an open invitation? If so, can you let me have the details please?


----------



## profesor_historia

dutchy101 said:


> Is the group buy an open invitation? If so, can you let me have the details please?


It's in Spain only I am afraid, besides with the Brexit complications would be a nightmare. The seller only ships to continental Spain.


----------



## DavecUK

profesor_historia said:


> @DavecUK did you notice any difference between the normal burrs and the Titanium ones? I am organising a group buy and I am recolecting info   .
> Thanks.


 Because they need to run in a little bit, I'm reserving judgment until next week


----------



## dutchy101

profesor_historia said:


> dutchy101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the group buy an open invitation? If so, can you let me have the details please?
> 
> 
> 
> It's in Spain only I am afraid, besides with the Brexit complications would be a nightmare. The seller only ships to continental Spain.
Click to expand...

 No worries mate. Hope it all goes well


----------



## Baffo

profesor_historia said:


> dutchy101 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Is the group buy an open invitation? If so, can you let me have the details please?
> 
> 
> 
> It's in Spain only I am afraid, besides with the Brexit complications would be a nightmare. The seller only ships to continental Spain.
Click to expand...

 Now that's a plot twist


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Baffo said:


> Now that's a plot twist


----------



## Baffo

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> View attachment 54269


 Naa it's for people in Spain, I can't be tempted..


----------



## profesor_historia

DavecUK said:


> Because they need to run in a little bit, I'm reserving judgment until next week


Thank you


----------



## ajohn

MWJB said:


> If anyone claims +/-0.1g dose consistency, ask how they did it. When you do, it won't be +/-0.1g any more.


 I checked Niche recently and what went in was what came out to 0.01g. I don't do it very often as don't like using the grind cup for dosing beans. When I have I have seen very low figure but only after the permanent retention has become well compacted. Takes maybe a couple of weeks of use from clean and most of that is not in the grinds chamber.

Going back to weighing in on the SGP I saw so many +/- 0.1g on 0.1 scales, my accurate ones that I completely gave up checking it unless I cleaned it out. It appeared to be down to bean chips collecting on top of the burrs that didn't get ground that might or might not fall in. Permanent retention well compacted again and more carry over when beans were changed. I weighed all shots for some time. Not just a few.

Same weighing in on my Mazzer Mini but more complicated. Normal way then brush burrs and spin up again and then brush ~0.2g out of the grinds exit. If that wasn't done it would decide to come out now and again. I did take steps to keep the beans and chips well down into the burrs as well. Otherwise some maybe 1/10's would finish up coating the inside of the rubber lens hood. Without a cover some bits would finish up feet from the grinder.


----------



## MWJB

It's possible to see 0.00g difference, I did on several occasions with Niche (+/-0.23g to 1 stdev for 10 grinds, +/-0.48 95%CL), but it's not going to happen 10 times in a row.

3 coffees a day is 21 grinds a week, 90 a month, over 1000 a year, so it's prudent to look at what is typical, rather than possible on outlying occasions.

If I flick a coin once I could say, "It always lands on heads!".


----------



## Jason11

RobbieTheTruth said:


> Can you get a Caedo with bellows for £500?
> What's a Major of Cuprajake?


I paid £500 for my Ceado e92 on here last summer.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Baffo said:


> Naa it's for people in Spain, I can't be tempted..


 mind and heart don't seem to be in sync here. 😊


----------



## ajohn

Alternate burrs have been mentioned and unimodal etc. Taking SSP as a for instance which ones are of interest and why. Brew or espresso cut?


----------



## profesor_historia

I think it's still pending the issue of burrs alignment, I would like to be very sure about that before purchasing it so I am waiting Dave's mini review







.


----------



## ajohn

profesor_historia said:


> I think it's still pending the issue of burrs alignment, I would like to be very sure about that before purchasing it so I am waiting Dave's mini review   .


 If you looked back in posts you find it's not unusual for find that flat burrs need shimming and centralising to each other.

The only thing about this one is that it probably isn't a good idea to check the top burr the usual way with it running.


----------



## Alfieboy

Do I need a microscope in my life? I don't like the thermos flasks but want to upgrade 😀

Do I get a better Mignon or try one of these?


----------



## naturalganja

ajohn said:


> If you looked back in posts you find it's not unusual for find that flat burrs need shimming and centralising to each other.
> 
> The only thing about this one is that it probably isn't a good idea to check the top burr the usual way with it running.


 Regarding burrs, I'm probably gonna get the SSP unimodal for light roasts and filter. Since the change they made on these to be more espresso friendly, i've heard great things. I'll however wait for Dave's input about the titanium burrs and will run the italmill when i receive the grinder to see what i'm dealing with first.

Agreed for the alignment without running the grinder, we can just use the usual method without plugging it in like this:


----------



## ajohn

naturalganja said:


> Regarding burrs, I'm probably gonna get the SSP unimodal for light roasts and filter. Since the change they made on these to be more espresso friendly,


 Curiously that video popped up another that relates to flat and conical and choice of burrs after a fashion but do take notice of the first comment from a viewer and it's not even that simple.






So some one goes to flat to obtain better fruit notes but then chooses a type of burr intended to reduce them??? If of cause the burrs actually do that. It sort of says go this way so that I can drink a bean that I wouldn't normally like as against choosing one that suits. I didn't have any problems getting fruit notes out 2 light roasts I have tried in Niche but didn't bother until it had plenty of beans put through it.

 The price difference between the 2 is of interest as well.


----------



## Rob1

You can get steel shim of different thicknesses rather than use aluminium foil which might not be as consistent through the roll.


----------



## Rob1

ajohn said:


> Curiously that video popped up another that relates to flat and conical and choice of burrs after a fashion but do take notice of the first comment from a viewer and it's not even that simple.


 I have made this point in the past relating to grinder comparisons, not just flat vs conical but all grinders. I've never seen a proper comparison video between two grinders.

Typically grinder comparisons go something like this: somebody gets two grinders, adjusts them to pull a shot of a specific ratio (usually 1:2) with the same dose (e.g 18g) in the same time and then scores one grinder against the other based on the quality of this shot. Sometimes the tests are conducted in the same way, blind and refracted with multiple shots used and multiple tasters to try and average things out. Sometimes people even compare grinders they've had and used for years and have shots perfectly dialled in and then grab another grinder, make it produce the same shot to the same parameters and then compare tastes. None of it reflects the way people actually use grinders. Basically, you need to dial two grinders in to produce the best tasting shot you can from a given bean rather than focus on some arbitrary figures you need to hit.

So the comparison above basically is comparing which grinder produces a specific ratio from a specific dose in a specific time better than the other.....it doesn't say you couldn't dial the Niche in to produce a fruit forward shot with clarity and still more body than you'd get from a big flat and it doesn't say you couldn't dial the Max in to produce a shot with more body with still better clarity than the Niche.


----------



## naturalganja

> 2 hours ago, ajohn said:
> 
> Curiously that video popped up another that relates to flat and conical and choice of burrs after a fashion but do take notice of the first comment from a viewer and it's not even that simple.


 I personally have heard more often than not that conical tend to bring more fruit notes than flats, even though I agree I also heard the opposite so often as well. I remember when I started my coffee journey I would hear flats do this, conical do that, then somewhere else I would hear something pretty much at the other end of the spectrum. I just don't think this video for example is relevant, because the fact that the shots run the same extraction time doesn't mean the flavour profile is comparable to one another. The particle distribution being different, you'll achieve different results everytime. What would happen if he went finer or reduce the dose and pushed the extraction a bit more? The conical would probably taste overextracted but the flat could bring something new, etc...

The coffee world is like that, we all know it and get frustrated with it from time to time, there is no real scientific answer to that question as it is mostly subjective. Plus when you're dealing with people who actually own these expensive devices, it's pretty tough to get an objective answer as a lot of them want to justify the purchase before anything else. I think the only thing that matters is you and what your taste buds want. Problem with that is that it's pretty much impossible to do side by side before to commit to a purchase, so we're left with not too many options but to rely on theory from other people.

My desire to get flat is not necessarily to bring more fruits but to explore clarity, I want to achieve high EY without the classic over extracted notes from conicals. I do fantastic shots with my conical, syrupy, sweet, fruity, they're great, but they remain and will always do, a classic espresso profile. What I'm looking for is these flavour profiles I did at work, and I know I can't get there with a conical. And for light roast filter, well it's tough to compete with a good unimodal flat burr when comparing to a conical.

Can you imagine a shop that stores lots of coffee grinders, machines etc... and that let you pay a fee to use them as you wish to decide what suits you best? Man that would basically be the Disney Land of coffee lovers... Unfortunately, probably not financially sustainable...


----------



## ajohn

Well 2 people realise why I posted it and the likes with them. This may hlep explain why as well that makes decisions on even beans difficult and links off it show regional difference.

https://mountaincity.com/brewing-2.html

but even that doesn't entirely hold water. There can be reasons for working outside the "ideal" range.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> Well 2 people realise why I posted it and the likes with them. This may hlep explain why as well that makes decisions on even beans difficult and links off it show regional difference.
> 
> https://mountaincity.com/brewing-2.html
> 
> but even that doesn't entirely hold water. There can be reasons for working outside the "ideal" range.


 That chart doesn't differentiate between beans or blends, the TDS has been shown to vary somewhat from region to region, but I think in the US now (the SCAA box shown was identified in the 1950's with large scale consumer testing) people are happy to use current EU & historical Nordic TDS ranges (EY range stays constant). Likely more related to presence of milk & roast level.

The original MRI chart said something along the lines of 'extraction not being an indicator of bean/blend quality'. More a guide to general preference at a given level of efficiency for brewed coffee specifically.

The grind characteristics & average size of the coffee used in the MRI study is known & to all intents & purposes 'normal' for brewed & achievable with flat & conical burrs, they even analysed some roller mill output.


----------



## ajohn

MWJB said:


> That chart doesn't differentiate between beans or blends, the TDS has been shown to vary somewhat from region to region


 I didn't intend it to. Only to indicate principles and that tuning can achieve a number of things with any bean and any grinder. Which is "best" ............. Tricky.


----------



## Zoltan

Hi all,

I couldn't find the answer yet in this thread.

Do we know if the Solo is louder/quieter compair to Mignon or Niche for example?

Also I've asked few things about this grinder from the factory on Alibaba.

Instead of giving answers they said I should contact the UK seller, which is Bella Barista(they saw my UK registered address and I guess not allowed to sell any more of this in the UK)

So if anyone tries to get it a bit cheaper (and no worries about returning to China and 1 year warranty only) it won't work.


----------



## MrXXX2

Hello everyone,

A newbie here but I've been stalking this thread for some time.

I have ordered the G-IOTA from the Belgian distributor (back when it was 'in stock' on their web), but now I'm seeing a message about delay in the e-shop order (although they were supposed to be dispatching it this week according to the previous info). They have yet to respond to my email.

I was wondering if anyone else had ordered from there? Do you know about any delays?

Cheers!


----------



## ajohn

MrXXX2 said:


> I was wondering if anyone else had ordered from there? Do you know about any delays?


 They have told you there is a delay. It can happen when anything that is out of stock is ordered. Bellabarista aim to ship this month but if they don't arrive in time the wont. It's as simple as that. Many companies do not actually charge until they ship and if delays went on for longer than expected I assume they would have to refund if asked if they had charged people.


----------



## thodoris5321

MrXXX2 said:


> Hello everyone,
> 
> A newbie here but I've been stalking this thread for some time.
> 
> I have ordered the G-IOTA from the Belgian distributor (back when it was 'in stock' on their web), but now I'm seeing a message about delay in the e-shop order (although they were supposed to be dispatching it this week according to the previous info). They have yet to respond to my email.
> 
> I was wondering if anyone else had ordered from there? Do you know about any delays?
> 
> Cheers!


 The shipment to the Polish shop has started, so i don't think it would be long for Belgian too.

The Polish shop has started pre-orders for May, and it seems they sell Carbon with Titanium burrs which explains the price.
Cream looking G-iota looks kinda good tbh.


----------



## dutchy101

Has anyone had a reply from Bella Barista? I was hoping to see some pics of the metallic black version but did not receive a response to my message yet.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

MrXXX2 said:


> I was wondering if anyone else had ordered from there? Do you know about any delays?


 I just got their reply, normally they should be sent end of NEXT week, so we need to wait a bit longer. 🤞


----------



## Baffo

@MrXXX2 @CoffeeAndCigarettes did you get it with steel, Ti or SSP burrs? You're getting it quite quickly, so probably you'd be among the first to write their first impressions.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

@Baffo I ordered the steel one, and might buy some SSP Unimodal separately later as it's currently out of my budget.

I'll try to give some feedback when I receive it, but this being my first proper grinder, it definitely won't be as thorough as @DavecUK's upcoming (mini-)review. 😅

I know that this grinder has already been available in Malaysia and Singapore for a while already, but sadly there's not much info coming from their side.


----------



## Baffo

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> @Baffo I ordered the steel one, and might buy some SSP Unimodal separately later as it's currently out of my budget.
> 
> I'll try to give some feedback when I receive it, but this being my first proper grinder, it definitely won't be as thorough as @DavecUK's upcoming (mini-)review. 😅
> 
> I know that this grinder has already been available in Malaysia and Singapore for a while already, but sadly there's not much info coming from their side.


 Review might not be as thorough (I don't know many, if any, people who can be as thorough as Dave..), but that wouldn't make it less valuable. If anything, I tend to give equal attention and value to newbie reviews - when done properly (which is perhaps the hardest thing to do as a newbie). Sometimes not having pre-existing opinions shaped by decades of experience can be a blessing.


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> @Baffo I ordered the steel one, and might buy some SSP Unimodal separately later as it's currently out of my budget.
> 
> I'll try to give some feedback when I receive it, but this being my first proper grinder, it definitely won't be as thorough as @DavecUK's upcoming (mini-)review. 😅
> 
> I know that this grinder has already been available in Malaysia and Singapore for a while already, but sadly there's not much info coming from their side.


 It really won't be that detailed....I have so much on at the moment..


----------



## AnthonyTD

Hi - joined this forum today as I have also been looking at this grinder. It is available already in South Africa under a diffent name "Coffee Essentials"

I ordered one yesterday and it is with the courier already. I expect to probably get it on Monday, when I do I intend to do a tear down to see how it is constructed and will post piuctures here.

I am coming from a Macap M4D so me expectations are not small however that grinder just does not lend itself well to single dose. I almost bought the Sette 270wi last week before someone told me to do more research.


----------



## Aidy

AnthonyTD said:


> I ordered one yesterday and it is with the courier already. I expect to probably get it on Monday, when I do I intend to do a tear down to see how it is constructed and will post piuctures here.


 Thanks!

I'd be particularly interested in how easily the main body separated out (I quite like the matt silver posted earlier in the thread - curious how annoying it would be to re-wrap it).


----------



## MrXXX2

@thodoris5321 @CoffeeAndCigarettes thanks for the updates! Good to hear from the others that the grinders are on their way. Unfortunately, still no answer from the shop for me, but I'm trying to be patient.



Baffo said:


> @MrXXX2 @CoffeeAndCigarettes did you get it with steel, Ti or SSP burrs? You're getting it quite quickly, so probably you'd be among the first to write their first impressions.


 Same boat as @CoffeeAndCigarettes - SSP would be over my budget, I'll start with the 'standard' Italmill and if I feel like it in the future, I might update. I'll be sure to post my impressions!


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

@MrXXX2 I also ordered from homebarista.be, they take some time to answer their mails, but Instagram or Facebook comments usually get quicker feedbacks, which I did, so my answer should be valid for you too  shipment should start next week, hopefully!


----------



## Rincewind

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> I also ordered from homebarista.be


 Hi, whereabouts are you ? ...Blighty, Europe or other ?? and if you don't mind me asking how much ?


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

@Rincewind I'm from Belgium, so I bought it at the price on their website.

Supporting the local businesses although I think they're probably already doing very well on their own


----------



## steveholt

I only became aware of this grinder through a mention on the Londinium Compact thread.

Early impressions here and on home barista seem to be good bang for buck.

With the TiN SSP burrs, is the grinder competition for or a suitable companion to the Niche?

My 64mm Ceado E37 has been in storage since I moved to the Niche.

I have had a half idea on the back of my head that if a single dose flat burr came along that was a good as the Niche and as good value as the niche that I would take it for a spin.

Is this a grinder in that space?


----------



## Baffo

steveholt said:


> I only became aware of this grinder through a mention on the Londinium Compact thread.
> 
> Early impressions here and on home barista seem to be good bang for buck.
> 
> With the TiN SSP burrs, is the grinder competition for or a suitable companion to the Niche?
> 
> My 64mm Ceado E37 has been in storage since I moved to the Niche.
> 
> I have had a half idea on the back of my head that if a single dose flat burr came along that was a good as the Niche and as good value as the niche that I would take it for a spin.
> 
> Is this a grinder in that space?


 But why, are you missing flat burrs or something?

From what I read on HB, the Ceado seemingly has low retention (ca. 0.6g when coupled with RDT) for being a large flat. And surely you can get the SD mod if you are ok with a bellows-puffing grinder, without shelling £400 for the Solo. I'm the greatest advocate for spending money, but I am failing to see how you'd benefit from the Solo if you already have a Ceado at home which you're not using.


----------



## 4085

steveholt said:


> With the TiN SSP burrs, is the grinder competition for or a suitable companion to the Niche?


 Why does it need to have Tin burrs to be competition? Any why the fascination to bettering the Niche? You are comparing a Chinese grinder to a British innovative product that was 4 years in the offing, being designed completely in the UK by an eminent British designer, to some Chinese thing! Personally, I back Britain, am proud to be British and will always buy British goods where possible!


----------



## ajohn

Baffo said:


> Is this a grinder in that space?


 The ultimate test is to buy one and find out. It generally takes ~10kg of grinding to fully sort burrs out. Coating is said to not need that. True or false? And then what coating, Ti, red speed or silver night. Then what makes of burrs SSD or ? What style of burrs? Say the ones it comes with, 2 types of Mazzer that could be coated, or SSD - several variants. Espresso, brew/unimodal and even a gp version of those. Cost of each SSD near 1/2 the price of this grinder.


----------



## profesor_historia

I have to say I decided not to buy it as I don't trust it to much to be honest. Instead I bought a brand new Compak K10, I always wanted to have one .


----------



## ytoledano

Has anyone tried this grinder for v60? I'm looking to buy this along with SSP Unimodal/Multi purpose burrs to make both filter and espresso. I'm somewhat concerned it won't have enough torque to drive the unimodal burrs, but I have nothing to back this.


----------



## Baffo

profesor_historia said:


> I have to say I decided not to buy it as I don't trust it to much to be honest. Instead I bought a brand new Compak K10, I always wanted to have one   .


 You went from nearly purchasing a single-dosing flat to getting an on-demand conical.. Hmm. Something tells me that you didn't "need" a grinder and were just itching to get a new metal baby


----------



## profesor_historia

Baffo said:


> You went from nearly purchasing a single-dosing flat to getting an on-demand conical.. Hmm. Something tells me that you didn't "need" a grinder and were just itching to get a new metal baby


K10 it's the doser one and it was a smoking deal. Well, I did need a grinder honestly







.


----------



## Baffo

profesor_historia said:


> K10 it's the doser one and it was a smoking deal. Well, I did need a grinder honestly   .


 Oh is it? Sorry, Google Images showed me a grinder whose hopper could have genuinely contained a small child.


----------



## profesor_historia

Baffo said:


> Oh is it? Sorry, Google Images showed me a grinder whose hopper could have genuinely contained a small child.


Yes it's like this but I won't use the hopper, I'll try to use it for single dose to see how it's working, it is the Pro Barista edition, if not I will cut to hopper, I did it with many or my former big grinders.
Sorry for the off topic .


----------



## steveholt

dfk41 said:


> Why does it need to have Tin burrs to be competition? Any why the fascination to bettering the Niche? You are comparing a Chinese grinder to a British innovative product that was 4 years in the offing, being designed completely in the UK by an eminent British designer, to some Chinese thing! Personally, I back Britain, am proud to be British and will always buy British goods where possible!


 Wow....

OK

I guess I should unpack my assumptions and subtext.

The fascination or desire to better the Niche or even match the Niche would be a drive to have coffee to my taste in a convenient and reliable package on my counter.

The TiN burrs question was a shorthand. SSP are generally regarded as better burrs than italmil. So asking about the potential performance ceiling of the grinder in its best form is one way of asking if the grinder is at all comparable to the Niche.

As for the rest of your choices and preferences re: design history, etc. They are valid points but are they critical to stated question or a shorthand for your opinion of UK vs China design re: these two grinders?


----------



## steveholt

Baffo said:


> But why, are you missing flat burrs or something?
> 
> From what I read on HB, the Ceado seemingly has low retention (ca. 0.6g when coupled with RDT) for being a large flat. And surely you can get the SD mod if you are ok with a bellows-puffing grinder, without shelling £400 for the Solo. I'm the greatest advocate for spending money, but I am failing to see how you'd benefit from the Solo if you already have a Ceado at home which you're not using.


 I do not know if I am missing flat burrs, but I am curious to try a grinder if its a potential cost effective upgrade on what I have at home.

Based on the tone of the answers in this thread and the tone of a pasting of a davec post I read somewhere else (grinder is OK and good for its price), this grinder is probably decent but also not a slam dunk step up in quality from from Niche.

If it was, the coffee Internet would be loudly unanimous in favour of trying it out.

I appreciate the replies and their perspectives. I am lucky enough that I have spent 2 happy years with a vesuvius and niche setup, and appreciative enough from spending time with niche and a duo temp pro.

Whatever I do next will be for fun or exploration. Thanks to having a decent set up, I'm in no rush nor panic


----------



## naturalganja

I sincerely don't understand the desire to compare the Niche to the df64/solo. They are not comparable imo beyond the fact that they are both coffee grinders, suitable for home and at a "low" price point. Beside all of this, one has been out and tested for a couple of years when this one is pretty much brand new on the market, it will take some time to get all the feedback for the ones who prefer to hold on. The Niche benefitted from a huge marketing campaign that is still successful to the day, and people who know nothing about it see it as the best and only option on the market, when this one is quietly being released. In today's world it's more about hype and look than actual performance. That being said we all know how great of a grinder the Niche is. As far as conical goes, it is definitely a fantastic option at this price point. If you truly feel the need for a flat, then the df64/solo seems to definitely be a good option to explore without breaking the bank, and its quiet presence on the market so far should make it an easy seller if one is not content with it.


----------



## steveholt

Surely the desire to compare the Niche to the df64 is that they are both small form factor single dose grinders.

One, a large conical burr, small form factor machine that set the standard for this segment of the market, and one new-comer that people might hope is the flat burr equivalent.


----------



## naturalganja

steveholt said:


> Surely the desire to compare the Niche to the df64 is that they are both small form factor single dose grinders.
> 
> One, a large conical burr, small form factor machine that set the standard for this segment of the market, and one new-comer that people might hope is the flat burr equivalent.


 Fair enough I can understand that. I'm just afraid that no test or comparison will give a satisfactory answer, simply because I feel like these people want to be told which one is "the best"


----------



## HVL87

steveholt said:


> Surely the desire to compare the Niche to the df64 is that they are both small form factor single dose grinders.
> 
> One, a large conical burr, small form.factor machine that set the standard for this segment of the market, and one new comer that people might hope is the flat burr equivalent.


 Agreed.

I don't understand why they would not be comparable.

Most are not in a position to compare large flat vs. conical burrs and there is only anecdotal evidence to highlight any difference in the cup.

So ultimately both are domestic single dose grinders at a similar price point (although not sure attaching a bellows makes it a single dose grinder).



naturalganja said:


> Fair enough I can understand that. I'm just afraid that no test or comparison will give a satisfactory answer, simply because I feel like these people want to be told which one is "the best"


 I think we just need more information on the Solo which will only take time as early adopters provide feedback and reviews are published. Ultimately you will never know what suits you best unless you try them side by side.

Personally I prefer the Niche at this point as it's tried and tested and seems better built/finished. If you factor in the conical/flat debate, the draw to conical grinders/Niche is the ability to pull a good shot more consistently over time.


----------



## steveholt

naturalganja said:


> Fair enough I can understand that. I'm just afraid that no test or comparison will give a satisfactory answer, simply because I feel like these people want to be told which one is "the best"


 Tbf, a lot of the upgrade style questions in any hobby forum are anchored in a version of this question. And hobbies often are matters of opinion, taste based hobbies moreso again.

Oddly enough, any new option that is generally the best for a lot of users will float to the top of wishlists (even for a while). These options might not be the best for everyone, but they tend to be pretty good.

The niche traction took a while to get going. I took a punt on one of the very first ones, and haven't posted in a great thread in two years. The post count on this new product thread piqued my interest.


----------



## naturalganja

HVL87 said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I don't understand why they would not be comparable.
> 
> Most are not in a position to compare large flat vs. conical burrs and there is only anecdotal evidence to highlight any difference in the cup.
> 
> So ultimately both are domestic single dose grinders at a similar price point (although not sure attaching a bellows makes it a single dose grinder).
> 
> I think we just need more information on the Solo which will only take time as early adopters provide feedback and reviews are published. Ultimately you will never know what suits you best unless you try them side by side.
> 
> Personally I prefer the Niche at this point as it's tried and tested and seems better built/finished. If you factor in the conical/flat debate, the draw to conical grinders/Niche is the ability to pull a good shot more consistently over time.


 The flat vs conical is certainly a very active debate still. I personally, most definitely can tell differences, especially in the range of possibilities and obviously, clarity. Been on my conical at home for 2 years, but Im having much more fun exploring high extraction at work with my flat. I can't get close to the flavour profile I make at work. If I try to push the extraction I quickly end up having over extracted notes which force me to back off.

That being said, I truly think that one should buy and focus on what one feels the need to. If you don't see a difference or a point in getting a flat, I don't see why you would buy one, just buy what you are comfortable with in terms of trust, design, budget etc... On another hand, it's not just for show that you'll see so many coffee geeks having both, a flat and a conical, as the results produced can vastly differ and the experimentation is endless. And on tp, the ability to switch burrs is a plus for me. For example I have ordered this one and I'll do my testing to see if I keep it or sell it. I have the italmill and the ssp unimodal on the way, as I drink a combination of light/medium espressos and filter (here too, the advantage of being able to switch burrs is a massive plus).

This is what I meant in terms of comparison, I don't truly understand what results is one after when watching a video or reading an experiment result, beside the answer to the question: it is a capable grinder or not, it is well buolt or not, it is aligned or not etc... In terms of actual results (aka flavour etc... I don't think we can have anything valuable from it, yet it is what most people are after). All these comparison videos on youtube etc... are flawed simply because people focus on dialling in similar brew time and comparing both grinders at that stage when the results can vary greatly by playing with it more.

Finally, in our world, one is also more often than not trying to justify the purchase of an expensive device, it is just always good to remember that there is not a "best" option (there is however safer options for sure, as in the Niche is safer than the solo since it's newer and not as thoroughly tested), but a myriad of great options all supposed to fit a different need.


----------



## ra0ul

Interesting discussion, fellas (I assume).

Meanwhile, some new product photos appeared over at the Polish webshop: https://ekspresdokawy.pl/pl/o/k/mlynek-do-kawy-domowy.html

Looks pretty good to me!


----------



## naturalganja

ra0ul said:


> Interesting discussion, fellas (I assume).
> 
> Meanwhile, some new product photos appeared over at the Polish webshop: https://ekspresdokawy.pl/pl/o/k/mlynek-do-kawy-domowy.html
> 
> Looks pretty good to me!


 Slick!


----------



## Baffo

Can I be cynical?

Ok I will.

The bellows are customised with what I assume is some brand linked to the reseller or something (for which the reseller will definitely have paid some extra).

in EU (at least the Belgian reseller, maybe the Polish as well) consumers get Titanium burrs AND a lower price (399 EUR vs 399 GBP).

Both are buying from the same producer, at what one must assume would be the same USD price conditions.

Now, unless I am missing something, the cynical in me can't help but think the UK MSRP is a bit... let's say.. inflated. The fact that EU resellers can offer upgraded burrs and plant their logos on the machine and still sell at 399 EUR (ie 349 GBP give or take) and still make a profit, is a clear indication of this..


----------



## naturalganja

Baffo said:


> Can I be cynical?
> 
> Ok I will.
> 
> The bellows are customised with what I assume is some brand linked to the reseller or something (for which the reseller will definitely have paid some extra).
> 
> in EU (at least the Belgian reseller, maybe the Polish as well) consumers get Titanium burrs AND a lower price (399 EUR vs 399 GBP).
> 
> Both are buying from the same producer, at what one must assume would be the same USD price conditions.
> 
> Now, unless I am missing something, the cynical in me can't help but think the UK MSRP is a bit... let's say.. inflated. The fact that EU resellers can offer upgraded burrs and plant their logos on the machine and still sell at 399 EUR (ie 349 GBP give or take) and still make a profit, is a clear indication of this..


 Agreed. Maybe some difference in import taxes for the UK seller? Or just pure inflation...


----------



## profesor_historia

I am not sure it's like this, at least in Spain for 399€ you get the normal burrs, only 2 models have the Titanium ones and they are bit more expensive, almost 100€ more.


----------



## Baffo

profesor_historia said:


> I am not sure it's like this, at least in Spain for 399€ you get the normal burrs, only 2 models have the Titanium ones and they are bit more expensive, almost 100€ more.


 Could be but if I recall correctly the Belgian distributor was throwing them in for free at 399 eur. I'm too lazy to find this in the thread - I apologise if this isn't true.


----------



## profesor_historia

Baffo said:


> Could be but if I recall correctly the Belgian distributor was throwing them in for free at 399 eur. I'm too lazy to find this in the thread - I apologise if this isn't true.


Anyways I am out of the game and I am quite happy of this decision


----------



## Aidy

Baffo said:


> Could be but if I recall correctly the Belgian distributor was throwing them in for free at 399 eur. I'm too lazy to find this in the thread - I apologise if this isn't true.


 I don't remember seeing that. They had an option where you could pay more for SSP burrs, but otherwise you got the same Italmill burrs as everyone else, I think.


----------



## DavecUK

Wow, I was just starting to write my review.....sounds like I shouldn't bother ????


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> Wow, I was just starting to write my review.....sounds like I shouldn't bother ????


 I await it with glee. I've ordered one. I don't think it will replace my Niche but from my point of view it may save me several hours work on my strange project or add to it so worth while even if sold on.


----------



## naturalganja

DavecUK said:


> Wow, I was just starting to write my review.....sounds like I shouldn't bother ????


 Whaaaaaaaat!??? Please do! I have personally been waiting for it and I'm sure I'm not alone!


----------



## profesor_historia

DavecUK said:


> Wow, I was just starting to write my review.....sounds like I shouldn't bother


It's only my fault....









Joking, I will read it gladly, it's just that I couldn't bear the idea of waiting again for a grinder, I am waiting for Arco and it's a looong wait until June and I wanted something right now .


----------



## Evan

Just got mine today and have been playing with it all morning, super impressed so far, and getting plain black was a great call, looks awesome and matches my fellow stuff very well


----------



## Baffo

Evan said:


> Just got mine today and have been playing with it all morning, super impressed so far, and getting plain black was a great call, looks awesome and matches my fellow stuff very well


 Pics! I don't think we've seen the plain black at all.


----------



## Evan

Baffo said:


> Pics! I don't think we've seen the plain black at all.





http://imgur.com/2dCi41P


Couldn't figure out the insert from mobile, but here's a link to couple pics of it (one beside my Ode for colour reference, it's not quite as matte, but I think it fits in well enough)


----------



## Alfieboy

Evan said:


> http://imgur.com/2dCi41P
> 
> 
> Couldn't figure out the insert from mobile, but here's a link to couple pics of it (one beside my Ode for colour reference, it's not quite as matte, but I think it fits in well enough)


 Is this the black one without a photo on Bella Barista?

Where did you buy yours from?

Neil


----------



## thodoris5321

Evan said:


> http://imgur.com/2dCi41P
> 
> 
> Couldn't figure out the insert from mobile, but here's a link to couple pics of it (one beside my Ode for colour reference, it's not quite as matte, but I think it fits in well enough)


 Wow i thought the Ode was just a noname cheap grinder, didn't really pay attention comparable next to the other equipment.



Baffo said:


> Could be but if I recall correctly the Belgian distributor was throwing them in for free at 399 eur. I'm too lazy to find this in the thread - I apologise if this isn't true.


 It was the Polish distributor which sold with preorder the df64 with titanium burrs for around 350 if i remember correctly, but that was in the late 2020 when noone knew the grinder, and the buyers haven't receive the grinder yet. Now he has to get the grinders from the belgian distributor too, and with his fixed price of 400 euros with Italmill burrs.


----------



## Baffo

thodoris5321 said:


> Wow i thought the Ode was just a noname cheap grinder, didn't really pay attention comparable next to the other equipment.
> 
> It was the Polish distributor which sold with preorder the df64 with titanium burrs for around 350 if i remember correctly, but that was in the late 2020 when noone knew the grinder, and the buyers haven't receive the grinder yet. Now he has to get the grinders from the belgian distributor too, and with his fixed price of 400 euros with Italmill burrs.


 Riiiight ok

Something tells me there's going to be some angry people..


----------



## Evan

Uncletits said:


> Is this the black one without a photo on Bella Barista?
> 
> Where did you buy yours from?
> 
> Neil


 I Ordered mine on Alibaba from the Chinese manufacturer, they didn't have a photo of it on their page so the black was a bit of a shot in the dark, but it really paid off!



thodoris5321 said:


> Wow i thought the Ode was just a noname cheap grinder, didn't really pay attention comparable next to the other equipment


 ... You thought the Fellow Ode was a cheap noname grinder...?


----------



## Baffo

@Evan assuming you're within the EU or UK, can I ask how much did you pay for? I think that's the question everybody wants to know the answer to.

And, when did you order? You've gotten it earlier than most..


----------



## Evan

Baffo said:


> @Evan assuming you're within the EU or UK, can I ask how much did you pay for? I think that's the question everybody wants to know the answer to.
> 
> And, when did you order? You've gotten it earlier than most..


 I'm actually located in Canada so I wasn't able to order it from any of the EU suppliers. I ordered directly from the Chinese manufacturer Feilai on Alibaba. And with shipping and duties it was $750 CAD

I ordered it on the 28th of February, and it shipped about a week ago, so quite good turnaround time from the factory.

Also, dealing with the factory was super easy and the sales person was very informative and friendly, highly recommended.


----------



## Baffo

Evan said:


> I'm actually located in Canada so I wasn't able to order it from any of the EU suppliers. I ordered directly from the Chinese manufacturer Feilai on Alibaba. And with shipping and duties it was $750 CAD
> 
> I ordered it on the 28th of February, and it shipped about a week ago, so quite good turnaround time from the factory.
> 
> Also, dealing with the factory was super easy and the sales person was very informative and friendly, highly recommended.


 Crazy that you'd get it earlier than many retailers who bought large quantities. I mean, good for you, but weird that the Chinese manufacturer would not prioritise large orders.

Ps have you measured retention with your first shot?


----------



## dreadnatty08

I believe this is where Evan got his from on Alibaba.

I've messaged with the seller as well (Amanda...). Looks to be $477 shipped to US. She says it is 110v and US plug capable. I'm close to pulling the trigger but not quite yet; want to see some more reviews. She also did say they can sell a single unit as the site claims a 2 unit minimum.


----------



## Giampiero

Baffo said:


> Crazy that you'd get it earlier than many retailers who bought large quantities. I mean, good for you, but weird that the Chinese manufacturer would not prioritise large orders.
> 
> Ps have you measured retention with your first shot?


 I do believe that Chinese manufacturer, they prioritise the selling, as normal, anyway at the moment seems that about 23 countries got a sort of exclusive right, so many other countries ( not the rest of the world, of course) is open market for the manufacturer direct selling, which probably is a good business too.


----------



## Evan

Baffo said:


> Crazy that you'd get it earlier than many retailers who bought large quantities. I mean, good for you, but weird that the Chinese manufacturer would not prioritise large orders.
> 
> Ps have you measured retention with your first shot?


 Yeah I was expecting closer to the quoted turnaround of 15 days out the door of the factory and then another week for shipment.

The very first shot I ground accidentally at Turkish and it had 2g retention, but after alot of extra bellows I got alot of it out. After that one shot was .1g and the other was zero using 3-4 smacks of the bellows.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> Wow, I was just starting to write my review.....sounds like I shouldn't bother 🤣


 Please! I'll read it! 🙂


----------



## MrXXX2

So just got the message from the Belgian e-shop, the G-IOTA's are still on their way from China and are expected to arrive end of this week / beginning of the next, after which they will be dispatched.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

DavecUK said:


> Wow, I was just starting to write my review.....sounds like I shouldn't bother ????


 You know many folks are sitting on the fence. Get it rolling please ! ????


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

MrXXX2 said:


> So just got the message from the Belgian e-shop, the G-IOTA's are still on their way from China and are expected to arrive end of this week / beginning of the next, after which they will be dispatched.


 I guess shipping a container of grinders by boat is a bit slower than sending 1-2 grinders by air to customers 😬

The wait is killing me, I was completely ok waiting 1.5 months when I pre-ordered, but the last stretch is really the hardest 😅


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Also, for those interested in SSP burr alignment, it seems homebarista is currently testing it today, and posting the updates on their Instagram stories (homebaristabelgium).

I don't know much about alignment or what their statement means, but they already said it's perfectly aligned before testing with coffee.


----------



## MrXXX2

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> The wait is killing me, I was completely ok waiting 1.5 months when I pre-ordered, but the last stretch is really the hardest 😅


 Same here, my plan was to have a new grinder mid-February already, but postponed it after finding out about G-IOTA. I'm really hopeful for the next week 🤞.


----------



## Baffo

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Also, for those interested in SSP burr alignment, it seems homebarista is currently testing it today, and posting the updates on their Instagram stories (homebaristabelgium).
> 
> I don't know much about alignment or what their statement means, but they already said it's perfectly aligned before testing with coffee.


 Part of me is still tempted to get this, buy SSP on the side, and then compare with the Niche. I'm just too curious to see what all of this fuss is about.


----------



## DavecUK

This grinder has had 34 pages of speculation, inspection, discussion and emotion...it's been fascinating to read. 🤣


----------



## profesor_historia

DavecUK said:


> This grinder has had 34 pages of speculation, inspection, discussion and emotion...it's been fascinating to read.


As a joke, I remember a line from Shakespeare: much a do about nothing . I am still curious who is behind the idea and the production.


----------



## Giampiero

DavecUK said:


> This grinder has had 34 pages of speculation, inspection, discussion and emotion...it's been fascinating to read. 🤣


 Mostly of it...without having the grinder in the hands🤣


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

DavecUK said:


> This grinder has had 34 pages of speculation, inspection, discussion and emotion...it's been fascinating to read. 🤣


 Not to mention the 4 other forums that some of us have been checking with Google Translate... 😂

With a total of about 5 people actually using the grinder, it's pretty impressive how much we're able to speculate!


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Not to mention the 4 other forums that some of us have been checking with Google Translate... ????
> 
> With a total of about 5 people actually using the grinder, it's pretty impressive how much we're able to speculate!


 Yes and as someone who has been using it for months...It is absolutely fascinating the sheer level of speculation and hype something can achieve, without it even trying. I swear it's like.










I'm actually quite frightened to write a mini review.....


----------



## Giampiero

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Not to mention the 4 other forums that some of us have been checking with Google Translate... 😂
> 
> With a total of about 5 people actually using the grinder, it's pretty impressive how much we're able to speculate!


 The Chinese manufacturer should give a medal to the Admins of all these forums🙂


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

DavecUK said:


> Yes and as someone who has been using it for months...It is absolutely fascinating the sheer level of speculation and hype something can achieve, without it even trying. I swear it's like.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm actually quite frightened to write a mini review.....


 It better be very good! ????


----------



## Enea

DavecUK said:


> Without trying to influence people...don't care if you buy one or not or where you get it from.
> 
> 
> 
> Heavy, mainly metal where it needs to be
> 
> 
> Aluminium alloy, so a fair bit of motor weight
> 
> 
> Polycarbonate front spine...is, well, polycarbonate
> 
> 
> Power button illuminted, it's OK
> 
> 
> Poratilter forks, OK
> 
> 
> Bottom bit it stands on...Polycarbonate...feet on mine were stuck on by someone else, have no idea what production feet will be like. So if you intend using the grinder upside down...it might be a concern
> 
> 
> drop it on the floor...bits might break...in transit, looks like it will be quite robust and won't go out of alignment if they drop the package
> 
> 
> fit is OK
> 
> 
> Rubber bellows are OK
> 
> 
> Colour of mine is aluminium...but it's a wrap, I cave also seen a carbon fibre wrap one...which I think BB will get...looks OK
> 
> 
> You probably won't be taking loads of photos of it like a Lyn Weber, or Monolith...
> 
> 
> Works OK though and I'd broadly agree with the polish distributors findings...it's effectively a flat burr grinder that can do what the Niche can do but with bellows...not quite as elegant, but it's cheaper. The real difference then becomes, price and flat vs conical and I'm not even going to go there.


 @DavecUKYou mean this doesn't count? 😂


----------



## ajohn

If I remember correctly Niche had long threads as soon as it was found on kickstarter ages before it was anything like available.

 I believe some ordered 2, one to sell.


----------



## DavecUK

Enea said:


> You mean this doesn't count? 😂


 Bits of it are wrong, but I'm glad you found it, want to use the correct bits in my review.. If theres anything else let me know. 🤣


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

DavecUK said:


> I'm actually quite frightened to write a mini review.....


 Why not a full size review to match the hype, then?


----------



## DavecUK

@CoffeeAndCigarettes You gotta be kidding....I'm going to write my review and hit the radio silence button. People here and anywhere else can make of it what they will.


----------



## Coffee21

"UPDATE: The delivery has now arrived and here at the Bella Barista warehouse. We are currently testing randomly picked Solo grinders today from the delivery. So far the results have been very good and we expect to make the grinders live to sell and dispatch tomorrow 17th March 2021."

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/news/solo-single-dose-coffee-grinder.html

Hopefully mine will arrive by Friday.


----------



## MHeath

Coffee21 said:


> "UPDATE: The delivery has now arrived and here at the Bella Barista warehouse. We are currently testing randomly picked Solo grinders today from the delivery. So far the results have been very good and we expect to make the grinders live to sell and dispatch tomorrow 17th March 2021."
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/news/solo-single-dose-coffee-grinder.html
> 
> Hopefully mine will arrive by Friday.


 Ooh mine too!!


----------



## Evan

Something I just accidentally discovered (not sure if @DavecUK can confirm on his) but it has an automatic 45s shutoff, which is kinda nice for the way I have mine setup.

Not sure if this is a major selling point for anyone (or a deal breaker) but I thought it was an interesting feature I hadn't heard of about the grinder.


----------



## HVL87

Coffee21 said:


> "UPDATE: The delivery has now arrived and here at the Bella Barista warehouse. We are currently testing randomly picked Solo grinders today from the delivery. So far the results have been very good and we expect to make the grinders live to sell and dispatch tomorrow 17th March 2021."
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/news/solo-single-dose-coffee-grinder.html
> 
> Hopefully mine will arrive by Friday.


 Apparently BB will be taking photos of the black metallic version and uploading to the website shortly.


----------



## DavecUK

Evan said:


> Something I just accidentally discovered (not sure if @DavecUK can confirm on his) but it has an automatic 45s shutoff, which is kinda nice for the way I have mine setup.
> 
> Not sure if this is a major selling point for anyone (or a deal breaker) but I thought it was an interesting feature I hadn't heard of about the grinder.


 yes, I haven't timed it but something like that


----------



## AnthonyTD

So my grinder arrived about 4 hours ago - been speinding some time looking at the construction and making some fine adjustments. The below review is not about the function of the grinder (I have only done one shot so far so still need to dial it in) but rather about the fit an finish.

So the manual is really simple:

















And the grinder comes pretty well packaged:

















COnstruction is pretty good - everything is metal with the exception of the front strip. Some have asked about the wrap - I need to take a closer look but it looks to me like it is some sort of resin coating and not somethign you can simply remove.

























Even the adjustment dial which feel plastic is actually aluminum:









Inside you can see it is still all metal - the base looks plastic but it is also what looks like cast aluminum.

The electronics is really simple - no digital ciruits here, if something goes wrong you can go to a local electronic hobby store and replace all the components for about $10

The only electrical component that would be a problem to replace is the motor - however from my experience with chinese machines they are pretty good at making electric motors that last.









Looks to me to be some sort of simple RC timer switch circuit for the 45s cutout. I did not remove the PCB to rverse engineer it. It does however look like an extremely simple analogue circuit. I however dont like the look of the wires soldered to the board - It almost looks like they are soldered to it and not through it. I may reopen this one day and do some better solder jobs, having a live wire come loose could be a problem although the chassis is well earther so there is protection there.









I then reassembled it and took some measurements. My plan was the shim the burrs so that the top burr is aligned with the bottom - but then I got to thinking, if the bottom burr has runout then no shimming is going to fix that - so I whipped out my dial indicated and did some measurements









I measured a total runout of the burrs of 0.03mm which is my opinion is not going to be a problem for grinding coffee beans - good score for the chinese manufacturer here.

I then set about shimming the burrs - as you can see removing the top burr shows that the carrier has a lot of empty space beneath the burr. Lots of space for grinds to collect in my opinion - maybe filling this space with silicon sealant (easy to remove if needed) would help here.









So you can shimm it but only where the screw holes reside. In the picture you can see that I have added aliminum tape as a shim to the top hole - all in all it took me 6 pieces of aluminum tape of thickness 0.08mm - so a total shim of 0.32mm. I may tackle this again as by the end of this process I had about 2/3 of the burrs touching (according to the whiteboard marker method).

For the one shot that I did it is no noisier than my Macap M4D that I am replacing this with. Probably grinds just as fast (which makes sense as the Macap is also 250W with 58mm burrs)

I have also made one mod - as the upper burr has so much free space under it I feel that a lot of grinds will get under there, especially if you have shimmed one side up. So I put some aluminum taps around to act as a seal:









As a first test I put 1.9g of coffee beans into it and groudn these - nothing came out - but a quick press on the bellows and I got 1.8g of coffee grinds out. Not bad for a brand new empty grinder - I suspect that some nooks and cranny's need to fill up with grinds before everything you put in comes out. Since making one shot I have noticed that the rubber ring that seals the upper burr carrier has a fair amaount of grinds sitting under it - one of those nooks and cranny's I was talking about - this will probably retain about half a gram at the most - but once the coffee is there I cant see much more coming out or in.

So all in all I think this is a really good buy and it is a solid little machine - I will leave it up to the more exprienced barristers here to determine how well it makes espresso - but as an egnineer myself who spent 30 years in manufacturering I can honestly say that this is a well put together grinder and should last long enough to pass down to your grandkids.

Final thought on the colour - as you can see I have the cardon fibre model as this was that only model available here - however it is not all that obvious and from about 1-2m away it looks more black under a lit kitchen counter, perhaps this is because of the forward lean creating a shadow and making the body seem darker, or it could be that the high gloss damps out the carbon look. Yeah I would have preferred silver or black, but the carbon is not a deal breaker in my opinion.

Disclaimer: This is a sample size of one - so I cant honestly say if every grinder coming out of this factory will have the runout that mine has. Unfortunatly consistency is not something that manufacturers in the far east are known for.


----------



## Iwasscammed

Im super excited to get mine from BB. Hopefully by friday.

Just a quick note, a decent amount of coffee products have huge price inflation. I bet the chinese retailer could afford to sell this for around £300 if not less. (source - engineer)

But we're in this together. I'm getting scammed along with everyone else. We're all getting scammed. Ill get scammed if you get scammed. Get some pitchforks.

Honestly, cant wait for it to arrive.

even if im getting scammed

Hopefully ill enjoy it


----------



## naturalganja

AnthonyTD said:


> So my grinder arrived about 4 hours ago - been speinding some time looking at the construction and making some fine adjustments. The below review is not about the function of the grinder (I have only done one shot so far so still need to dial it in) but rather about the fit an finish.
> 
> So the manual is really simple:
> 
> View attachment 55013
> 
> 
> View attachment 55015
> 
> 
> And the grinder comes pretty well packaged:
> 
> View attachment 55016
> 
> 
> View attachment 55017
> 
> 
> COnstruction is pretty good - everything is metal with the exception of the front strip. Some have asked about the wrap - I need to take a closer look but it looks to me like it is some sort of resin coating and not somethign you can simply remove.
> 
> View attachment 55018
> 
> 
> View attachment 55019
> 
> 
> View attachment 55020
> 
> 
> Even the adjustment dial which feel plastic is actually aluminum:
> 
> View attachment 55029
> 
> 
> Inside you can see it is still all metal - the base looks plastic but it is also what looks like cast aluminum.
> 
> The electronics is really simple - no digital ciaruits here, if somethign goes wrong you can go to a local electrinic hobby store and replace all the components for about $10
> 
> The only electrical component that woudl be a problem to replace is the motor - however from my experience with chinese machines they are pretty good at making electric motors that last.
> 
> View attachment 55021
> 
> 
> View attachment 55032
> 
> 
> I then reassembled it and took some measurements. My plan was the shim the burrs so that the top burr is aligned with the bottom - but then I got to thinking, if the bottom burr has runout then no shimming is going to fix that - so I whipped out my dial indicated and did some measurements
> 
> View attachment 55026
> 
> 
> I measured a total runout of the burrs of 0.03mm which is my opinion is really great for grinding coffee - good score for the chinese manufacturer here.
> 
> I then set about shimming the burrs - as you can see removing the top burr shows that the carrier has a lot of empty space beneath the burr.
> 
> View attachment 55027
> 
> 
> So you can shimm it but only where the screw hole reside. In the picture you can see that I have added aliminum tape as a shim to the top hole - all in all it took me 6 pieces of aluminum tape of thickness 0.08mm - so a total shim of 0.32mm. I may tackle this again as by the end of this process I had about 2/3 of the burrs touching (according to the whiteboard marker method).
> 
> For the one shot that I did it is no noisier than my Macap M4D that I am replacing this with. Probably grinds just as fast (which makes sense as the Macap is also 250W with 58mm burrs)
> 
> I have also made one mod - as the upper burr has so much free space under it I feel that a lot of grinds will get under there, especially if you have shimmed one side up. SO I put some aluminum taps around to act as a seal:
> 
> View attachment 55031
> 
> 
> As a first test I put 1.9g of coffee beans into it and groudn these - nothing came out - but a quick press on the bellows and I got 1.8g of coffee grinds out. NOt bad for a brand new empty grinder - I suspect that somenooks and cranny's need to fill up with grinds before everythign you put in comes out. Since making one shot I have noticed that the rubber ring that seals the upper burr carrier has a fair amaount of grinds sitting under it - one of those nooks and cranny's I was talking about - this will probably retain about half a gram at the most - bust one the coffee is ther I cont see much more coming out or in.
> 
> So all in all I think this is a really good buy and it is a solid little machine - I will leave it up to the more exprienced barristers here to determine how well it makes espresso - but as an egnineer myself who spent 30 years in manufacturering I can honestly say that this is a well put together grinder and should last long enough to pass down to your grandkids.


 Thank you for the detailed input this is great piece of information!

I never realized the only possible locations for shims would be right on top of the screws. Used to never placing them there but always around as I have been told but I guess I'll have to try this way and see how it goes! You say that by the end of the shimming process you were only getting 2/3 of the burrs touching? Couldn't get a perfectly aligned burr?

You obviously have an engineer mind, which I do not, so let me ask you a question that might sound stupid but here we go: what would it take to turn this grinder into an adjustable RPM grinder? Is it even possible? Just curious!


----------



## Coffee21

Thanks for the detailed overview, Anthony (didn't want to quote the whole post).


----------



## Baffo

@AnthonyTD thanks for the detailed info. Maybe I'm blind but could you circle the shims? I can't see any haha.

Also, did you buy something specific for it or?


----------



## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> Thank you for the detailed input this is great piece of information!
> 
> I never realized the only possible locations for shims would be right on top of the screws. Used to never placing them there but always around as I have been told but I guess I'll have to try this way and see how it goes! You say that by the end of the shimming process you were only getting 2/3 of the burrs touching? Couldn't get a perfectly aligned burr?
> 
> You obviously have an engineer mind, which I do not, so let me ask you a question that might sound stupid but here we go: what would it take to turn this grinder into an adjustable RPM grinder? Is it even possible? Just curious!


 To be honest I was too keen to test the grinder to do more shimming - also I confused myself, I calcualted that I had added 0.32mm of shims and then remembered that I had 0.03mm of runout - in a moment of sheer madness I thought that it is no point shimming more than 0.3 mm if my runout is the same (totally missed the extra decimal point). So maybe on the weekend I will spend some time shimming it again - although in the beginnins there was only a small amount of the burrs touchinf and after 0.32mm shiming I was at 2/3 of the burrs touching - so I probably have a 0.1 to 0.2mm larger gap on the one side - perhaps that is not really noticable in the cup?

Regarding adjusting the speed of the grinder - it looks to me like this is a induction sinlge phase motor (that is what the big capacitor is there for, to create a second phase to start and run the motor). So that tells me that the speed is a function of the frequency and not the voltage. I am not sure if it is possible to control the speed on a single phase motor all that easily however I suspect you will loose torque in doing so.


----------



## AnthonyTD

Baffo said:


> @AnthonyTD thanks for the detailed info. Maybe I'm blind but could you circle the shims? I can't see any haha.
> 
> Also, did you buy something specific for it or?


 Hi, look carefully in the second to last picture in my post - you see the top screw hole? Around it the metal doesnt look as smooth as the others. That is because that is strips of aluminum foil tape like this.

I just cut it into small rectangles and put it over the screw hole - I then pierced it with a toothpick to expose the screw hole again (the foil is very thin). To make it thicker I just stuck a new piece over the last one.

I used the same tape to seal the gap between the burrs and the grinder body (long thin strips that I carefully stuck on the inside edge in the last photo in my post.


----------



## Colio07

AnthonyTD said:


> To be honest I was too keen to test the grinder to do more shimming - also I confused myself, I calcualted that I had added 0.32mm of shims and then remembered that I had 0.03mm of runout - in a moment of sheer madness I thought that it is no point shimming more than 0.3 mm if my runout is the same (totally missed the extra decimal point). So maybe on the weekend I will spend some time shimming it again - although in the beginnins there was only a small amount of the burrs touchinf and after 0.32mm shiming I was at 2/3 of the burrs touching - so I probably have a 0.1 to 0.2mm larger gap on the one side - perhaps that is not really noticable in the cup?
> 
> Regarding adjusting the speed of the grinder - it looks to me like this is a induction sinlge phase motor (that is what the big capacitor is there for, to create a second phase to start and run the motor). So that tells me that the speed is a function of the frequency and not the voltage. I am not sure if it is possible to control the speed on a single phase motor all that easily however I suspect you will loose torque in doing so.


 I may be having a senior moment, but 6 shims at 0.08mm each = 0.48mm (not 0.32), right?

In any case, thank you so much for all of this explanation and the photos! Very helpful to get a sense of the grinder that has clearly generated significant interest.


----------



## AnthonyTD

Coffee21 said:


> "UPDATE: The delivery has now arrived and here at the Bella Barista warehouse. We are currently testing randomly picked Solo grinders today from the delivery. So far the results have been very good and we expect to make the grinders live to sell and dispatch tomorrow 17th March 2021."
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/news/solo-single-dose-coffee-grinder.html
> 
> Hopefully mine will arrive by Friday.


 Interesting to read their comments about the springs and possible wear.

Looking at the way this is designed I dont think that each spring needs to apply the exact same force to make any difference in the operation of the grinder. The springs are essentially there to hold the upper carrier against the top adjusting ring. The only forec pushing the carrier down is that ring - during grinding any beans entering the burrs will try to force them apart, not closer together, so the force of grinding acutally works WITH the springs, not against them. So if two spring push upwards with a force of say 2kg and the one spring pushes upwards with a force of 1kg, as long as the carriers weight is not above 1kg that one spring will still ensure that the carrier sits snug against the adjustment ring.

I also dont really buy the notion of springs wearing out all that quickly - the main failure of springs is metal fatigue which comes from many cycles of said springs. IN this case these springs are pretty much static most of the grinders life, and even if they are cycling slightly it is nothing in the life of a spring. Springs can cycle billions of times before thre are issues. If they did not then our cars would be breaking down every month because the valve springs failed (a car reving at 3000rpm has its springs cycling 25 times per second.


----------



## AnthonyTD

Colio07 said:


> I may be having a senior moment, but 6 shims at 0.08mm each = 0.48mm (not 0.32), right?
> 
> In any case, thank you so much for all of this explanation and the photos! Very helpful to get a sense of the grinder that has clearly generated significant interest.


 Oh jees you are right - 4x8 = 32 and 6x8=48. Now I've gone and made a complete fool of myself online


----------



## Mrboots2u

Iwasscammed said:


> Im super excited to get mine from BB. Hopefully by friday.
> 
> Just a quick note, a decent amount of coffee products have huge price inflation. I bet the chinese retailer could afford to sell this for around £300 if not less. (source - engineer)
> 
> But we're in this together. I'm getting scammed along with everyone else. We're all getting scammed. Ill get scammed if you get scammed. Get some pitchforks.
> 
> Honestly, cant wait for it to arrive.
> 
> even if im getting scammed
> 
> Hopefully ill enjoy it


 Go live in China then and enjoy all the benefits of a cheaper coffee grinder. 
people are allowed to make money , premises, people , warranty , taxes , all cost and risk of investing cash in stock ,


----------



## Colio07

AnthonyTD said:


> Oh jees you are right - 4x8 = 32 and 6x8=48. Now I've gone and made a complete fool of myself online


 Hardly! Your posts on this grinder have been very illuminating. Just wanted to clarify how much shimming was needed!


----------



## AnthonyTD

Colio07 said:


> Hardly! Your posts on this grinder have been very illuminating. Just wanted to clarify how much shimming was needed!


Was definitly six pieces however I suspect that every grinder would be different.

Another option would be to look at how the motor is mounted and shim there to change the angle of the motor with respect to the top burr. But that may be a lot more work.


----------



## Baffo

Shims, voltage, springs, forces, metal fatigue, capacitors..

Reading the last page had me think that one needs a PhD to set up a grinder.. Maybe I should stick to my hand grinder.


----------



## dutchy101

I'm feeling very much out of my depth too


----------



## AnthonyTD

Sorry guys I get carried away. I am sure the grinder works just prefect out of the box.

But you know what engineers are like: if it ain't broke, you haven't optimised it enough


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

AnthonyTD said:


> Sorry guys I get carried away. I am sure the grinder works just prefect out of the box.
> 
> But you know what engineers are like: if it ain't broke, you haven't optimised it enough


 Over my head!


----------



## thodoris5321

With aligned burrs should we gett more uniform results than the ones that tested it in the Polish forums maybe?

If i understand how the springs work, if we push the bellows down while it grinds it should mess the alignment of the upper burr, so we should press the bellows only after it grinds (Unlike some of the first videos i've seen testing the grinder).

If the capacitor is a chinese one (instead of a Japanese), wouldn't it most likely be the first one that would cause a problem and need replacement in the future?

Do you thing that the plasic ring that the Niche has for control of popcorning (and other) fits this grinder?


----------



## Baffo

thodoris5321 said:


> *With aligned burrs should we gett more uniform results than the ones that tested it in the Polish forums maybe?*
> 
> If i understand how the springs work, if we push the bellows down while it grinds it should mess the alignment of the upper burr, so we should press the bellows only after it grinds (Unlike some of the first videos i've seen testing the grinder).
> 
> If the capacitor is a chinese one (instead of a Japanese), wouldn't it most likely be the first one that would cause a problem and need replacement in the future?
> 
> Do you thing that the plasic ring that the Niche has for control of popcorning (and other) fits this grinder?


 What do you mean? Did they achieve poor results? How were these poor results measured?

And I would assume that any poorly aligned grinder would give issues..


----------



## thodoris5321

Baffo said:


> What do you mean? Did they achieve poor results? How were these poor results measured?
> 
> And I would assume that any poorly aligned grinder would give issues..


 They didn't get bad results in the cup, just not very good uniformity. But i don't even know how uniform similar grinders can grind.


----------



## MWJB

thodoris5321 said:


> They didn't get bad results in the cup, just not very good uniformity. But i don't even know how uniform similar grinders can grind.


 If the results in the cup were good but uniformity was not, how much can uniformity matter?

What @Baffo says, how were uniformity results measured, can you provide a link please?


----------



## AnthonyTD

thodoris5321 said:


> If i understand how the springs work, if we push the bellows down while it grinds it should mess the alignment of the upper burr, so we should press the bellows only after it grinds (Unlike some of the first videos i've seen testing the grinder).


The force required to press the bellows is pretty light. Especially compared to the tension that the three springs produce.

Not saying that pushing down on the bellows will not affect burr alignment but you would need to be pretty ham fisted to do so and will probably wear out those bellows prematurely


----------



## AnthonyTD

Pulled the PCB out this morning to get pictures of both sides and check if the wires are through-hole soldered or not.

Happy to report that the wires are actually through-hole soldered, not just surface mounted. However I must also retract my comments about the simple nature of the PCB - turns out that the bottom side has all the electronics for the timer control - still really simple from an electronics perspective, but also not just a couple of components.

@Rincewind you will be happy to see that there is a flyback diode across the relay (D1). I dont think the wires are going anywhere fast - yes they could use some hot glue to act as straing relief but movement is pretty much nill here. I also dont see the grinder generating enough heat to melt the solder (not sure how you make the jump from low quality solder to a low melting point). Remember this is a single dose grinder intended for home use, I dont think the duty cycle is such that we are going to get above the 200 degrees required to melt lead free solder (even the Chinese are using that these days). If the motor got hot enough to radiate enough heat to melt a solder joint about 4-5cm away I suspect that there would be bigger issues happening inside said motor.

Regarding the cavities under the top burr - from my perspective I only see this as being a problem with respect to grinds eventually gathering under there. I honestly dont see it affecting rigidity enough to affect function (we are grinding pretty soft and brittle coffee beans here). If that is a deal breaker for you then fair enough.


----------



## Aidy

thodoris5321 said:


> If i understand how the springs work, if we push the bellows down while it grinds it should mess the alignment of the upper burr, so we should press the bellows only after it grinds (Unlike some of the first videos i've seen testing the grinder).


 Surely the springs are only there to provide enough resistance against the torque of the motor so that the burr carrier doesn't rotate by itself?

It's on a screw thread. Pushing down on the top shouldn't change the spacing.


----------



## Alfieboy

BUT the big question is:

I have a Mignon Facile

Do I need this Grinder? Will it improve my coffee life?

Neil


----------



## profesor_historia

Uncletits said:


> BUT the big question is:
> I have a Mignon Facile
> Do I need this Grinder? Will it improve my coffee life?
> Neil


Do you change the grind for brew and then again espresso etc?


----------



## ajohn

Aidy said:


> Surely the springs are only there to provide enough resistance against the torque of the motor so that the burr carrier doesn't rotate by itself?


 They are there to take out play in the adjustment thread and the wings they are on prevent the upper burr from rotating.

Must check my mazzers for back emf diodes. 

Only comment I would make at the moment is wire nuts. There is nothing wrong with soldering wires directly into a circuit board but a more cost effective method usually is some sort of soldered connector on the board and a mating connector crimped onto the wires. The wire nuts may be crimp covers anyway. Can't tell from the photo's.

Higher current parts often have to be hand soldered on circuit boards - it's a depends.

Other factors depend on what type of motor it is.


----------



## Baffo

Uncletits said:


> BUT the big question is:
> 
> I have a Mignon Facile
> 
> Do I need this Grinder? Will it improve my coffee life?
> 
> Neil


 The Facile can also be equipped with bellows to be used as a single doser, so I'm not super sure that this would improve the workflow (the Solo, however, probably retains far less on its own without using the bellows, in case you can't be asked to use them).

I am not commenting on grind quality due to the larger burrs as I haven't tried myself. Can of worms.


----------



## ajohn

thodoris5321 said:


> They didn't get bad results in the cup, just not very good uniformity. But i don't even know how uniform similar grinders can grind.


 Where is the link some one asked for on this?

I suspect it may be a comment from some one who expects a unimodal particle type grinds distribution. Something that in a literal sense is probably impossible and can't even be that accurately done with sieves.


----------



## Alfieboy

profesor_historia said:


> Uncletits said:
> 
> 
> 
> BUT the big question is:
> I have a Mignon Facile
> Do I need this Grinder? Will it improve my coffee life?
> Neil
> 
> 
> 
> Do you change the grind for brew and then again espresso etc?
Click to expand...

 I only make milk based drinks and change settings depending on the bean


----------



## Giampiero

ajohn said:


> Where is the link some one asked for on this?
> 
> I suspect it may be a comment from some one who expects a unimodal particle type grinds distribution. Something that in a literal sense is probably impossible and can't even be that accurately done with sieves.


 The link should be the Polish forum about the G-IOTA, one of the forums that many ( me too) translated with google, i never trusted the translation 100% to made me have an opinion based on their comment, but you can check as well.


----------



## AnthonyTD

Aidy said:


> Surely the springs are only there to provide enough resistance against the torque of the motor so that the burr carrier doesn't rotate by itself?
> 
> It's on a screw thread. Pushing down on the top shouldn't change the spacing.


 The upper carrier does not rotate with the ring that adjusts the grind. That ring rides ontop of teh upper carrier and presses down on the carrier which in turn presses down on the springs. So if you were to push down hard enough on the "hopper tube" you could manually force the burrs to touch. But as I stated before you woudl need to do this intentionally, I cant see it happening easily when operating the bellows. Unless of course you were under the impression that the bellows slept wioth your wife and you wanted them to pay!😀


----------



## Giampiero

AnthonyTD said:


> The upper carrier does not rotate with the ring that adjusts the grind. That ring rides ontop of teh upper carrier and presses down on the carrier which in turn presses down on the springs. So if you were to push down hard enough on the "hopper tube" you could manually force the burrs to touch. But as I stated before you woudl need to do this intentionally, I cant see it happening easily when operating the bellows. Unless of course you were under the impression that the bellows slept wioth your wife and you wanted them to pay!😀


 A very simple explanation, is that the upper burr carrier it works exactly like a Mazzer Jolly/Super jolly or a Fiorenzato F5/ F64 etc etc


----------



## Baffo

thodoris5321 said:


> They didn't get bad results in the cup, just not very good uniformity. But i don't even know how uniform similar grinders can grind.


 The Italmill steel burrs are most likely basic burrs which also might - I am speculating, as I've read this about stock burrs on Mazzers - happen to be tailored to produce good espresso for Italians. Good uniformity might not quite be desirable in that case (Italians drink dark roasted ristrettos and value mouthfeel way above anything else, including flavour clarity, where grind uniformity would be of help).

Now, if somebody tried the SSP HU burrs and still complained about bad results, then I would wonder whether there is something else (e.g. misalignment) at play.

*none of the above comes from personal experience, only what I've read.


----------



## Coffee21

Mine has been despatched by BB and will arrive tomorrow.


----------



## AnthonyTD

Had another go at shimming the top bur today (I am a bit OCD when things are not perfect).

While doing so I reliased that I made an assumption on what the mating serface was for the burr. I assumed it was exactly where the screw hole sits. I put some whiteboard marker on that and the resessed flat just above it, placed the burrs in place and rotated them so that they rubbed against the carrier. When I removed them I noticed that the marker was removed from the reccesed flat, not the screw hole area. So this is teh correct place to shim. I took a piece of brass shim stock that I have which is 0.1mm thick and placed a piece there as in the below photo. Did the alignment test again and pretty much perfect now - the marker was removed from almost all of the burr with the exception of a slight bit left at the very edge of the burr.









So the original alignment was not all that far out already -probably around 0.1mm.

If anoyone else is looking to shim their burrs, you can get brass shim stock from any engineering shop. If you cant find that then cut up coke cans - they are typically about 0.2mm thick these days and cut ewasily with a strong scissors.


----------



## ajohn

Baffo said:


> none of the above comes from personal experience, only what I've read.


 That's the problem. Reading is one thing and what some one may find in practice when they get there is an entirely different matter. There are lots of variations of beans out there and also ways of tuning them.

The SSP and Lagom is interesting. Pure brew to modified brew to HU which is actually the easiest SSP burr to get hold of, their espresso burr. Laser analysis was probably used to show a tighter peak than some particular Mazzer. Ok but laser analysis maths is based on spherical particles.

Some of this all comes from the EK43. One style of burr for those was used in the 50's by other makes - brew like. There is a photo somewhere on homebarista. There are a number of burr style available for it at ~£300 a shot from SSP which is probably a lot cheaper than from Mahlkonig. However some SSP for those may be more than £300.

The EK43 is a big burr grinder. That fact according to many means a better drink. It also uses an auger and vertical burrs. The best option if some one wants the same grind is to buy one.

When burrs are compared which ones. If uncoated how many kg has been put through them. If coated which coating. DLC for instance is said to offer lower friction than others. Coating tends to round off sharp edges just as use of conventional burrs does. Coating is often used to simplify heat treatment on cutting tools.


----------



## ajohn

The way to shim 3 points if some one wants to be exact is to shim the nearest point by 1/2 the amount needed. Then keep doing that.

 Assuming it's worth doing and my memory is correct. All of my microscopes are correctly centred - done years ago.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> The SSP and Lagom is interesting. Pure brew to modified brew to HU which is actually the easiest SSP burr to get hold of, their espresso burr. Laser analysis was probably used to show a tighter peak than some particular Mazzer. Ok but laser analysis maths is based on spherical particles.


 I have read that SSP use sifting to measure grinds, he correlates this with preset program on his Decent espresso machine to see how it behaves. Never seen any laser diffraction results.


----------



## Baffo

-


----------



## Baffo

ajohn said:


> That's the problem. Reading is one thing and what some one may find in practice when they get there is an entirely different matter. There are lots of variations of beans out there and also ways of tuning them.


 I don't think I've claimed I was right or that I was dispensing science. I'll show you my post, with in bold the elements that are meant to caveat what I said.

*most likely* basic burrs which also *might *- I am *speculating*, as I've read this about stock burrs on Mazzers - happen to be tailored to produce good espresso for Italians. Good uniformity *might not quite* be desirable in that case (Italians drink dark roasted ristrettos and value mouthfeel way above anything else, including flavour clarity, where grind uniformity would be of help).

Now, if somebody tried the SSP HU burrs and still complained about bad results, then I *would wonder* whether there is something else (e.g. misalignment) at play.

I'm honestly a bit sick of posting, in this thread and in general on this forum

- If you don't have experience and you comment on what others have done, that's bad and it's a problem because you don't have experience yourself

- if you do have experience, then it's still useless, bad, a problem, as "it's all subjective" because we all have different taste and preference.

Alright, let's all have a refractometers jerkoff then, you can't post anything unless you attach a reading.


----------



## MWJB

Baffo said:


> I'm honestly a bit sick of posting, in this thread and in general on this forum
> 
> - If you don't have experience and you comment on what others have done, that's bad because you don't have experience yourself
> 
> - if you do have experience, then it's still useless as "it's all subjective" because we all have different taste and preference.
> 
> Alright, let's all have a refractometers jerkoff then, you can't post anything unless you attach a reading.


 Don't be so sensitive, have a break, enjoy a completely subjectively delicious cup of coffee 

Anyone can say/speculate what they want. You might get a tangible response in return, you might get different speculation. The trouble is, almost every concept discussed in regard to grinders, burrs & their grind performance is speculation. So expecting agreement is probably a bit optimistic.


----------



## Baffo

MWJB said:


> Don't be so sensitive, have a break, enjoy a completely subjectively delicious cup of coffee 🙂
> 
> Anyone can say/speculate what they want. You might get a tangible response in return, you might get different speculation. The trouble is, almost every concept discussed in regard to grinders, burrs & their grind performance is speculation. So expecting agreement is probably a bit optimistic.


 I am not expecting agreement - I have always been very open to disagreement.. I am expecting just a conversation, being dismissed as a "problem" for voicing a heavily-caveated point of view is at best frustrating.

That said this will be rightfully and hopefully deleted by @DavecUK as we (I) are OT, I have no interest in discussing this further really, I am not being "sensitive", whatever that's supposed to mean.


----------



## ajohn

MWJB said:


> I have read that SSP use sifting to measure grinds, he correlates this with preset program on his Decent espresso machine to see how it behaves. Never seen any laser diffraction results.


 That's good if so as the other way may be a metric but with coffee I just can't see how it can really relate to what comes out unless sifting is used to provide fiddle factors but would wonder if that is even feasible.

I have some 64mm SSP's HU come espresso burrs and wondered about brew style. No stock anywhere but have had them and not restocking - other than probably Lagom. Reading suggests that pure brew in practice are hard to use on espresso - in places  usual problem - opinions.

I also have Jolly burrs in need of ideally 10kg of scrap beans and some well and nicely run in mini burrs. I'll be very interested in Dave's comments about coated Mazzer burrs. Which ones - I do have concerns about a 250w motor that may not be up to commercial standards but if it has built in thermal limiter not really a problem but so far no idea if what type of motor it uses.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> That's good if so as the other way may be a metric but with coffee I just can't see how it can really relate to what comes out unless sifting is used to provide fiddle factors but would wonder if that is even feasible.


 Sifting can tell you about the average size to coarser grind grind proportions very reliably, I can't see what the fiddle factor would be here. Sifting can't tell you anything about modes in espresso range because these are identified by a different convention and at smaller particle sizes than works with sifting. Most grinders are unimodal in coarser, filter ranges.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Baffo said:


> The Italmill steel burrs are most likely basic burrs which also might - I am speculating, as I've read this about stock burrs on Mazzers - happen to be tailored to produce good espresso for Italians. Good uniformity might not quite be desirable in that case (Italians drink dark roasted ristrettos and value mouthfeel way above anything else, including flavour clarity, where grind uniformity would be of help).
> 
> Now, if somebody tried the SSP HU burrs and still complained about bad results, then I would wonder whether there is something else (e.g. misalignment) at play.
> 
> *none of the above comes from personal experience, only what I've read.


 Couple of suggestions if I may

I dont the italmill burrs are specifically designed for Italian espresso i think that they are just an old design and cater for the Italian market, if it ain't broke dont fix it mentality . They are probably from a time when all there was , was Italian espresso . To generalise , robusta darker roasts , easy to extract, hasn't forced them to be innovative . I dont think Mazzer really care about uniformity for 64mm burrs ( in the sense of laser analysis or comparative better than other brands ) i just think they keep pumping out the same burrs they have forever for the large amount of grinders that are out there .


----------



## DavecUK

Baffo said:


> I am not expecting agreement - I have always been very open to disagreement.. I am expecting just a conversation, being dismissed as a "problem" for voicing a heavily-caveated point of view is at best frustrating.
> 
> That said this will be rightfully and hopefully deleted by @DavecUK as we (I) are OT, I have no interest in discussing this further really, I am not being "sensitive", whatever that's supposed to mean.


 Most speculation in this thread is from people who don't have the grinder 🤣...I read things about grinder, alignment, shimming, burrs coating etc.. etc.. It's all compounded by various statements about grinders which are never tested. That is the nature of a forum. I remember it was the same with the Niche Zero, same speculation, even more crap posted and still is being posted. The, "we can buy it in this country or china for £X and we're being ripped off whatever"... makes no sense either. People can buy it wherever it's cheapest and most convenient with the level of warranty you're happy with. *Speculate away all you want to (it's your right), but no one should get upset when people challenge the speculations, or counter it with speculation of their own. Surely, we can discuss something and disagree......this forum has moved on from those times.*

Lets keep it pleasant, play the ball not the man, speculate and discuss as much as we want, argue our position...it's all good and keeps the conversation interesting.

This is a £399, or whatever grinder discounted to £379 in the UK...it is what it is...it's not magical, my review will make no fantastic claims, just what I found.

I suppose I had better get a move on with my Mini review.


----------



## AnthonyTD

ajohn said:


> The way to shim 3 points if some one wants to be exact is to shim the nearest point by 1/2 the amount needed. Then keep doing that.
> 
> Assuming it's worth doing and my memory is correct. All of my microscopes are correctly centred - done years ago.


 Good point - however in this case the amount that is need to be shimmed is not measured. It is rather done by trial an error. Mark the burrs with a white board marker, assemble the grinder with adjustment down to the point where the burrs are touching and manually turn the grinder in reverse (I use a socket spanner to go over the main nut that holds the bottom bur carrier in place). Then dismantel again and look at where the marker was removed from the burr - add shimms to the point opposite to this to bring that side closer to the bottom burr - the try again and again till you get to the point where the burrs are touching along the entire suirface area (or close to it)


----------



## ajohn

You should centralise burrs as well. I do have a dti for other reasons.


----------



## AnthonyTD

@DavecUK Look forward to seeing your review on how this grinder makes coffee. I especially refrained from covering this on my side but just focused on the build quality and construction.


----------



## Baffo

Mrboots2u said:


> Couple of suggestions if I may
> 
> I dont the italmill burrs are specifically designed for Italian espresso i think that they are just an old design and cater for the Italian market, if it ain't broke dont fix it mentality . They are probably from a time when all there was , was Italian espresso . To generalise , robusta darker roasts , easy to extract, hasn't forced them to be innovative . I dont think Mazzer really care about uniformity for 64mm burrs ( in the sense of laser analysis or comparative better than other brands ) i just think they keep pumping out the same burrs they have forever for the large amount of grinders that are out there .


 Thanks for replying to my theories without dismissing them. I think most people on this board have poor understanding of the difference between "countering your speculation with speculation of their own"/"disagreeing with your speculation" and "dismissing your speculation".


----------



## AnthonyTD

ajohn said:


> You should centralise burrs as well. I do have a dti for other reasons.


 Interested to know how you would go about doing that. Sure you can run a DTI along the edge of the bottom Burr to measure radial runout and perhaps there is enough wiggle room in the burr mounting bolts to adjust this out, but then how to you verify that this is inline with the burr on the top carrier.

When the top carrier is put in place the entire grinder cavity is sealed (thats why it has good retention, the bellows can only pump grinds out of one space). I fail to see how one would go about inspecting that the top burr is in line radially with the bottom burr. The method of using a marking pen works for axial alignment but will tell you nothing for radial alignment.

I also think the burrs themselves are designed around a fair amount of radial alignment tollerence, and I say this for all grinders.


----------



## ajohn

Baffo said:


> I don't think I've claimed I was right or that I was dispensing science. I'll show you my post, with in bold the elements that are meant to caveat what I said.


 You have reacted to my post the wrong way. I wasn't knocking yours just pointing out a number of hang ons. Grinders are a tricky subject and there are factors about them that don't even get a mention. Make to make differ in areas other than just the burrs used in them.


----------



## profesor_historia

ajohn said:


> That's good if so as the other way may be a metric but with coffee I just can't see how it can really relate to what comes out unless sifting is used to provide fiddle factors but would wonder if that is even feasible.
> I have some 64mm SSP's HU come espresso burrs and wondered about brew style. No stock anywhere but have had them and not restocking - other than probably Lagom. Reading suggests that pure brew in practice are hard to use on espresso - in places  usual problem - opinions.
> I also have Jolly burrs in need of ideally 10kg of scrap beans and some well and nicely run in mini burrs. I'll be very interested in Dave's comments about coated Mazzer burrs. Which ones - I do have concerns about a 250w motor that may not be up to commercial standards but if it has built in thermal limiter not really a problem but so far no idea if what type of motor it uses.


Yes but Compak K6 also has a 250W motor and 64mm burrs and you can see them almost in all bars around Spain. I also had a few of them myself and they are beasts.


----------



## DavecUK

@AnthonyTD There are 6 types of angular misalignment for a grinder including radial misalignment. There is of course some tolerance for radial misalignment, the main problem is there are 6 types or more (?) of radial misalignment as well.

You can measure radial run out of the moving burr, but I'm not sure where that gets you...because radial runout to what....it doesn't really mean anything concrete, unless it's so bad it's obvious. You can't measure the radial alignment of the burrs to each other...so, it doesn't matter really. If it's really badly out, it's probably going to be apparent in the grinders performance.

Angular misalignment is also very difficult to measure, easy to get wrong and almost impossible to fix properly...especially when shims provide 20+ micron change on a grinder where 1 mark moves the burrs closer/farther apart, by 12.5 micron...half a mark being a change of less than 7 micron...and half a mark is easy to do. The maximum I found on the burrs was around 25 micron on new burrs (this could have been caused by an angular misalignment of top and bottom burrs). This reduced to less than 7 micron after use...so it could have been rubbed off by the seasoning of beans and may not have been a top+bottom burr misalignment at all. It doesn't mean that there isn't still angular misalignment of one of the burrs. Trying to correct it is fruitless...I did try, but because the correction is about 20 ,micron and only a maximum of 2 out of 3 places...it's a fairly unrewarding exercise.

Does this mean you shouldn't do it..., no go ahead, enjoy yourself...

I worked in precision engineering when I was younger, we had one, and only one Swiss lathe that could fairly reliably work to 3 ten thousandths of an inch, about 7.5 micron. Only one of all the swiss milling machines and lathes. It was used to make parts for atomic bombs and had to meet the tolerance limits set by the MOD. Plus parts for laboratory test lasers and beam splitters for the MOD. Even then we had a reject rate of 30+%


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> There are 6 types of angular misalignment for a grinder including radial misalignment. There is of course some tolerance for radial misalignment, the main problem is there are 6 types or more (?) of radial misalignment as well.


 The interesting thing really is what does it do in the cup. If gross probably something but how bad does that have to be. The way grinders are made in practice means they are likely to differ. How much depends on how they are made.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

DavecUK said:


> Speculate away all you want to


 When are you going to put these to rest with your crisp mini review please ? 😎


----------



## Mrboots2u

ajohn said:


> The interesting thing really is what does it do in the cup. If gross probably something but how bad does that have to be. The way grinders are made in practice means they are likely to differ. How much depends on how they are made.


 It will Grind, brownish beans to make a brownish drink .

Most will be bonkers happy with it, some will be vocally unhappy also .


----------



## Mrboots2u

DavecUK said:


> @AnthonyTD There are 6 types of angular misalignment for a grinder including radial misalignment.


 And 3 steps to heaven

50 ways to leave your lover

8 days a week....


----------



## Mrboots2u

profesor_historia said:


> ajohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> That's good if so as the other way may be a metric but with coffee I just can't see how it can really relate to what comes out unless sifting is used to provide fiddle factors but would wonder if that is even feasible.
> I have some 64mm SSP's HU come espresso burrs and wondered about brew style. No stock anywhere but have had them and not restocking - other than probably Lagom. Reading suggests that pure brew in practice are hard to use on espresso - in places    usual problem - opinions.
> I also have Jolly burrs in need of ideally 10kg of scrap beans and some well and nicely run in mini burrs. I'll be very interested in Dave's comments about coated Mazzer burrs. Which ones - I do have concerns about a 250w motor that may not be up to commercial standards but if it has built in thermal limiter not really a problem but so far no idea if what type of motor it uses.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but Compak K6 also has a 250W motor and 64mm burrs and you can see them almost in all bars around Spain. I also had a few of them myself and they are beasts.
Click to expand...

 Comes back to what I advice

Buy something in budget and for functionality ( space , workflow etc )

For this grinder , its smaller and it proporting to have a hassle free solution to retention and single dosing , unless it has deplorable QC they should make as good a brown drink as an SJ or a K6 , they will be no magic to make it indefinably better.

I think from memory SSP burrs have been able to be put into SJ for a while and didn't see a mad rush for people to do this .


----------



## MHeath

Mine has been dispatched, I've followed this thread although I admit don't understand much of what has been said! I just want a nice quality, consistent single dose grinder that does similar to what a niche does. I want it to be able to handle most roasts, if it does this I'm happy!


----------



## Mrboots2u

MHeath said:


> Mine has been dispatched, I've followed this thread although I admit don't understand much of what has been said! I just want a nice quality, consistent single dose grinder that does similar to what a niche does. I want it to be able to handle moats roasts, if it does this I'm happy!


 Buy grinder, try grinder, if happy with gridner, ignore all Internet forums and enjoy coffee 

Again unless the QC is awful in the production run and I have no reason to think it will be , then I'm sure you will be happy.


----------



## naturalganja

@AnthonyTD once again thank you for the input. Happy to hear the shimming needs to be applied on the recessed flat, that makes things a little easier considering we still have limited space and you seem to have achieved great results so the wait for my delivery is even harder now.

I don't plan on trying the italmill at all but rather spend the few bags of "bad" beans I have kept aside to season the SSP. Will probably keep the italmill on the side if one day I want to see the profile they give.

One question: why did you switch from aluminum shims to brass? I was planning on using either regular aluminum foil or getting some aluminum tape


----------



## Rudester

MHeath said:


> Mine has been dispatched, I've followed this thread although I admit don't understand much of what has been said! I just want a nice quality, consistent single dose grinder that does similar to what a niche does. I want it to be able to handle moats roasts, if it does this I'm happy!


 Mine too. It should arrive tomorrow hopefully. My shiny new Marax was delivered yesterday, so i'm itching to try them both out!


----------



## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> @AnthonyTD once again thank you for the input. Happy to hear the shimming needs to be applied on the recessed flat, that makes things a little easier considering we still have limited space and you seem to have achieved great results so the wait for my delivery is even harder now.
> I don't plan on trying the italmill at all but rather spend the few bags of "bad" beans I have kept aside to season the SSP. Will probably keep the italmill on the side if one day I want to see the profile they give.
> One question: why did you switch from aluminum shims to brass? I was planning on using either regular aluminum foil or getting some aluminum tape


Only reason I decided to try one brass shim is that firstly the one is thicker than the aluminium tape and secondly that it is faster to cut a piece of brass, lay it down and put the burr on top than to fiddle with the backing tape for the the aluminium. The one shim seemed to hit the spot for me so I decided not to fiddle anymore. No reason why you could not use the aluminium tape.


----------



## Rincewind

@AnthonyTD Hi Anthony, many thanks for the clarification on D1, i'm glad to see that it was added...nice to also see that the pcb wasn't quite the hatchet job it appeared (based on your 1st photo) to be and even better that those wires aren't just plonked on top of the board but using good mounting techniques after all....i can sleep soundly now knowing that it's not quite a POS that i wrongly assumed (based on your 1st photo) it to be; yeah the wires being properly mounted shouldn't (dry-joints aside later on in life) come loose and hopefully that solder won't melt (i was being overly cruel towards Chinese products)....it's even got what appears to be either "4 test-points" or "*newer/different model* future wiring points", so it looks like the Chinese may have upped their game; strange times indeed.

Loved what you've done with the brass shimming....there may be hope for this grinder after all....i may have to re-start rooting for this little grinder and retract my Dragon's Den statement and say "i'm in", as it looks like it may give the ǝɥɔᴉN a run for it's money :exit:


----------



## Rincewind

ajohn said:


> Must check my mazzers for back emf diodes.












that's cruel lol....i may have to loan you my big wooden spoon muhahahaha


----------



## LuckyDip23

I've just pulled the trigger on one of these from Bella barista.

Was seriously torn between this and the niche, but given I don't know when I'll be able to buy a niche I figured I'll give this it go. Worst case I can always eBay it and recoup if it doesn't perform, but from what I can google the impressions are positive. 
Hopefully it might be here by weekend 🤞


----------



## jonr2

Baffo said:


> Shims, voltage, springs, forces, metal fatigue, capacitors..
> 
> Reading the last page had me think that one needs a PhD to set up a grinder.. Maybe I should stick to my hand grinder.


 you need Ron Swanson to fashion you a grinder out of wood! 🙂


----------



## naturalganja

@AnthonyTD since you have the grinder in hands, would the sand paper alignment method work? Rather than the shims I mean, so it wouldn't have to be re-done every time the burrs are removed/changed


----------



## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> @AnthonyTD since you have the grinder in hands, would the sand paper alignment method work? Rather than the shims I mean, so it wouldn't have to be re-done every time the burrs are removed/changed


 Sorry I had to google that method as I was not familiar with it - I guess it could be done however you may end up ripping up your sand paper since it is not sone continious smoooth surface on the upper burr carrier (as you can see from my pictures). I would just use the shim method -I mean how often are you going to replace burrs anyway? Shimming them took me under 30 minutes and doing that once every few years is not a problem.

I must also point out that it is quite possible that the grinder works perfectly without shimming - I just did it because I saw the method mentioned here and it made sense to me. Perhaps I should have left it unless I thought I could get a better cup. To be honest I dont have such a refined pallet so I probably would not be able to taste the difference anyway. I can say that I am getting what looks like a much better extraction from this grinder than I was getting from the first grind of the day with my Macap M4D. On the Macap I would need to purge a fair amount of coffee to get similar results (when the creme threatens to overflow the portafilter spout).


----------



## naturalganja

AnthonyTD said:


> Sorry I had to google that method as I was not familiar with it - I guess it could be done however you may end up ripping up your sand paper since it is not sone continious smoooth surface on the upper burr carrier (as you can see from my pictures). I would just use the shim method -I mean how often are you going to replace burrs anyway? Shimming them took me under 30 minutes and doing that once every few years is not a problem.
> 
> I must also point out that it is quite possible that the grinder works perfectly without shimming - I just did it because I saw the method mentioned here and it made sense to me. Perhaps I should have left it unless I thought I could get a better cup. To be honest I dont have such a refined pallet so I probably would not be able to taste the difference anyway. I can say that I am getting what looks like a much better extraction from this grinder than I was getting from the first grind of the day with my Macap M4D. On the Macap I would need to purge a fair amount of coffee to get similar results (when the creme threatens to overflow the portafilter spout).


 Thank you for looking it up and answering, so helpful as always. I was just curious but I hear ya. Only reasoning to this was that, if I really like the grinder I might wanna get both SSP and an easy swap would be ideal but shimming isn't the worst at all. I just cannot decide for the life of me which direction I want to go first, but it seems that high uniformity will be the easiest to start with (easier to align, easier to dial in...).


----------



## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> Thank you for looking it up and answering, so helpful as always. I was just curious but I hear ya. Only reasoning to this was that, if I really like the grinder I might wanna get both SSP and an easy swap would be ideal but shimming isn't the worst at all. I just cannot decide for the life of me which direction I want to go first, but it seems that high uniformity will be the easiest to start with (easier to align, easier to dial in...).


Ha, at the price of this grinder just get another one.


----------



## Alfieboy

LuckyDip23 said:


> I've just pulled the trigger on one of these from Bella barista.
> 
> Was seriously torn between this and the niche, but given I don't know when I'll be able to buy a niche I figured I'll give this it go. Worst case I can always eBay it and recoup if it doesn't perform, but from what I can google the impressions are positive.
> Hopefully it might be here by weekend 🤞


 I bought one at 3.00PM - it's coming tomorrow!


----------



## Giampiero

Just for smile.

After so many comments, i do believe that Chinese manufacturer they already know it was going to be a "mental" matter 🤣


----------



## Coffee21

My machine has arrived. First impressions are very good. It's relatively heavy, which is a plus.


----------



## emdr888

yep got mine too..looks good and very heavy...seems it's all metal apart from the cup and bellows


----------



## ajohn

I have a feeling that the black that has turned up may well suite me more than the metallic black I ordered. Matte not a terribly accurate description but I may end up wishing it was colour matched with Niche.

 I've just ordered some beans for it

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WXM39T6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I may try a shot of them as sounds more interesting than Amazon Solimo which is now only available via Fresh. Hopefully half will be used so rest for another set of burrs. The Solimo IMHO lacks anything of interest. Lots sold though.

Not really noticed anything yet as not looked but screw adjustment feels ok. I'd prefer a pointer on the dial. Maybe some lip salve on the adjustment thread - not sure. Common thing to use on Mazzer. There are specific products but...

The dial looks to be reasonably calibrated in terms of zero but do use one bean that needs very fine grinding. I have a feeling this grinder wont cope with it but may. Using the Niche with them in makes changing beans a bit of a pain. I have used 2 grinders due to that before.


----------



## lake_m

Well??? Is someone going to grind some beans and make a coffee! The suspense is killing me!😆


----------



## HaggisMoose

lake_m said:


> Well??? Is someone going to grind some beans and make a coffee! The suspense is killing me!😆


 About to now  I made a latte before but guess I have to do a non-milk one to really see what it's like.


----------



## ajohn

lake_m said:


> Well??? Is someone going to grind some beans and make a coffee! The suspense is killing me!😆


 You had better contact your GP and mention you might need very prompt attention.

I wont be drinking anything until it's had at least 1kg of junk beans through it.


----------



## AnthonyTD

ajohn said:


> You had better contact your GP and mention you might need very prompt attention.
> I wont be drinking anything until it's had at least 1kg of junk beans through it.


Can I ask why that is?


----------



## Alfieboy

AnthonyTD said:


> ajohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> You had better contact your GP and mention you might need very prompt attention.
> I wont be drinking anything until it's had at least 1kg of junk beans through it.
> 
> 
> 
> Can I ask why that is?
Click to expand...

 Yes I'd like to understand what has to be done

How much and just throw it away? I understand seasoning but how quickly can it be used?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Uncletits said:


> Yes I'd like to understand what has to be done
> 
> How much and just throw it away? I understand seasoning but how quickly can it be used?


 No reason. It to use your grinder now , it will change a little as the burrs wear in , but you don't NEED to season before use .

re gp I have no idea what he is in about and I suspect neither does he


----------



## emdr888

I put 34g of some cheap beans through, just for a drip brew.....very smooth... I was getting some sour notes before as my hand grinder was grinding very ununiformly.

it's pretty quiet and I actually like the see through cup.... easy to see through to tap any grinds left inside. Very happy so far.


----------



## Shorticus

Very impressed with mine. Good heft, very easy to dial in and no clumping to speak of. Compared favourably to my Specialità. Very low retention even without the bellows, minimal with. Just wish it was .3mm narrower so it would sit neatly on my Mignon knock box.


----------



## dreadnatty08

Can anyone with a Mignon give a comparison? I have a Manuale with a single dosing setup (3D printed) and considering this as a minor upgrade mainly for the larger burrset and perhaps quieter?


----------



## mtjones55

ordered one myself for delivery tomorrow 👍


----------



## jonr2

It is really great to see people receiving their grinders and enjoying using them - that's what its all about right?

I love this thread - some many different themes - different contributions ranging from idle gossip, random speculation, detailed breakdowns, reviews, streams of consciousness as people try and decide whether to go for a grinder which looks good on paper but has little real world info. - i tip my hat to those who were prepared to take a punt and sincerely hope you all enjoy the coffee it produces

looking forward to more of the same from this and other threads in the forum 🙂


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

emdr888 said:


> it's pretty quiet and I actually like the see through cup.... easy to see through to tap any grinds left inside. Very happy so far.


 Happy to hear that it's not too loud!

And finally someone that feels the same way about the dosing cup, it always seemed so much more convenient.

Now I can't wait to receive mine, it seems those who ordered from Homebarista will still have to wait until after 27.03 😕


----------



## ajohn

AnthonyTD said:


> Can I ask why that is?


 New grinders aren't new to me. Some seasoning can reduce clumping especially when new. Some burrs have a tendency to produce more fines when they are new which leads to a rather fierce drink initially. That can drop off pretty quickly but to get a grinder where it can be may take a number of kg of beans. At some point other than finding the need to set the grind finer and finer over time the change can be so slow that it wont be noticed.

One problem with doing it is that coffee grinders even commercial ones are not intended for continuous use so a careful eye has to be kept on how hot the motor is getting. Warm casing means stop.


----------



## profesor_historia

ajohn said:


> New grinders aren't new to me. Some seasoning can reduce clumping especially when new. Some burrs have a tendency to produce more fines when they are new which leads to a rather fierce drink initially. That can drop off pretty quickly but to get a grinder where it can be may take a number of kg of beans. At some point other than finding the need to set the grind finer and finer over time the change can be so slow that it wont be noticed.
> One problem with doing it is that coffee grinders even commercial ones are not intended for continuous use so a careful eye has to be kept on how hot the motor is getting. Warm casing means stop.


In the last 11 years I had about 13 different grinders of all types and sizes and burr types but none got warm, I mean never, it would be strange to get warm in the seconds your grind for a shot and I think it would be a bad sign, in my opinion.


----------



## ajohn

profesor_historia said:


> n the last 11 years I had about 13 different grinders of all types and sizes and burr types but none got warm, I mean never, it would be strange to get warm in the seconds your grind for a shot and I think it would be a bad sign, in my opinion.


 Grinding 1kg of beans is nothing remotely like grinding for one shot.


----------



## profesor_historia

ajohn said:


> Grinding 1kg of beans is nothing remotely like grinding for one shot.


Who would grind 1kg of one go??? Christ alive


----------



## ajohn

profesor_historia said:


> ajohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> Grinding 1kg of beans is nothing remotely like grinding for one shot.
> 
> 
> 
> Who would grind 1kg of one go??? Christ alive
Click to expand...

 Some nut might try to season burrs with 1kg of beans in one go. They would find that they need to stop grinding pretty frequently.

 Me thinks you response was down to not reading the post I was responding too.


----------



## AnthonyTD

ajohn said:


> New grinders aren't new to me. Some seasoning can reduce clumping especially when new. Some burrs have a tendency to produce more fines when they are new which leads to a rather fierce drink initially. That can drop off pretty quickly but to get a grinder where it can be may take a number of kg of beans. At some point other than finding the need to set the grind finer and finer over time the change can be so slow that it wont be noticed.
> One problem with doing it is that coffee grinders even commercial ones are not intended for continuous use so a careful eye has to be kept on how hot the motor is getting. Warm casing means stop.


Oh ok. Sorry when you said contact your GP because I you may need attention I thought you were referring to perhaps getting poisoned from oils left over from manufacture or something along those lines.

So I see your reasoning but in my mind I am not enough of a coffee snob (and I don't mean that as an insult) to refuse to use the grinds from day 1. Gives me a chance to observe any difference as I progress into using the grinder.

Regarding warm motor: Not sure what you mean here? It's a single dose grinder so the motor is barely going to get to any temperature before you are finished with it.
And if it did then how hot would you regard as too hot? AC motors are not delicate snow flakes and can actually operate well into pretty high temperatures. Assuming this motor insulation satisfies the common NEMA class F standards then it means it can tolerate a winding temperature of 155°C. This would probably translate to a surface temperature of 100°C. In other words hot enough to actually burn you badly should you touch it.
Even class A standard would result in a motor too hot to comfortably touch being perfectly happy.

Not saying that you should let the grinder melt down, but claiming that feeling some warmth on the case indicates any sort of damage to the motor is taking it a bit far in my opinion.


----------



## ajohn

AnthonyTD said:


> Not saying that you should let the grinder melt down, but claiming that feeling some warmth on the case indicates any sort of damage to the motor is taking it a bit far in my opinion.


 How would you know if you have never fed 1kg of beans through a grinder as quickly as you can?


----------



## 27852

ajohn said:


> Some nut might try to season burrs with 1kg of beans in one go. They would find that they need to stop grinding pretty frequently.
> 
> Me thinks you response was down to not reading the post I was responding too.


 What is your protocol to do so? Go continuous after x seconds and wait or do it in runs of say 50g?


----------



## AnthonyTD

ajohn said:


> How would you know if you have never fed 1kg of beans through a grinder as quickly as you can?


I don't need to feed anything into a grinder to apply common sense to knowledge that I have around motors and electronics in general.

As I said before AC motors are very hardy and will tolerate pretty extreme (in human terms) temperatures.


----------



## profesor_historia

ajohn said:


> Some nut might try to season burrs with 1kg of beans in one go. They would find that they need to stop grinding pretty frequently.
> Me thinks you response was down to not reading the post I was responding too.


Sorry then


----------



## profesor_historia

Kjk said:


> What is your protocol to do so? Go continuous after x seconds and wait or do it in runs of say 50g?


I would buy some normal, regular coffee and drink it, not just grind it and throw it l. It's what I am doing with my new Compak K10.


----------



## ra0ul

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Happy to hear that it's not too loud!
> 
> And finally someone that feels the same way about the dosing cup, it always seemed so much more convenient.
> 
> Now I can't wait to receive mine, it seems those who ordered from Homebarista will still have to wait until after 27.03 😕


 I got told Homebarista orders won't even arrive until 27 May..


----------



## 27852

profesor_historia said:


> Kjk said:
> 
> 
> 
> What is your protocol to do so? Go continuous after x seconds and wait or do it in runs of say 50g?
> 
> 
> 
> I would buy some normal, regular coffee and drink it, not just grind it and throw it l. It's what I am doing with my new Compak K10.
Click to expand...

 I mean I only want the finest to season my grinder so was thinking of running 2kg of geisha through it...

BB gave me a kilo of reject beans with the last grinder I bought so it would be nice to know how to safely feed them through.


----------



## profesor_historia

Kjk said:


> I mean I only want the finest to season my grinder so was thinking of running 2kg of geisha through it...


Hahaha It will go veeery smoothly


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

ra0ul said:


> I got told Homebarista orders won't even arrive until 27 May..


 No, I believe that was a mistake, from reading the German forum, they initially replied 27 May, and corrected later on that it was actually March, not May.

May would probably be for the 2nd batch.

At least that's what Google Translate told me... 😅


----------



## ra0ul

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> No, I believe that was a mistake, from reading the German forum, they initially replied 27 May, and corrected later on that it was actually March, not May.
> 
> May would probably be for the 2nd batch.
> 
> At least that's what Google Translate told me... 😅
> 
> View attachment 55180


 Never received that second email, but that's good news - especially after reading the positive first responses here!


----------



## ajohn

Kjk said:


> BB gave me a kilo of reject beans with the last grinder I bought so it would be nice to know how to safely feed them through.


 There is no straight answer to that. Just keep an eye on how hot the case gets. Unlike Mazzer the motor is separate from the case so I'd stop if it feels warm. Problem with motors is they take a lot longer to cool down than heat up unless they are fitted with a fan. It can also takes some time for winding heat to get to the case.

Start coarse well above espresso levels. That keeps the load down. Then visit espresso levels and later finish off at them. Maybe @DavecUK can suggest numbers as they are probably well calibrated. I'd estimate very fine espresso at say 5. The main problem is some would use a lot more beans. I've found even a kg makes a difference but have ordered 2.  Before I stop I'll try and tune an Amazon Happy Belly out of curiosity,


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

@ra0ul I'm also not 100% trusting all those forum discussions, but having 2 months delay would be quite outrageous, especially since HB has been testing the grinders and announced its launch since end of november 2020.


----------



## profesor_historia

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> @ra0ul I'm also not 100% trusting all those forum discussions, but having 2 months delay would be quite outrageous, especially since HB has been testing the grinders and announced its launch since end of november 2020.


Maybe the Chinese cannot keep up with the demand?


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

profesor_historia said:


> CoffeeAndCigarettes said:
> 
> 
> 
> @ra0ul I'm also not 100% trusting all those forum discussions, but having 2 months delay would be quite outrageous, especially since HB has been testing the grinders and announced its launch since end of november 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe the Chinese cannot keep up with the demand?
Click to expand...

 Maybe, but since HB mother company is the official distributor in Europe/EU, it seems unlikely that the Chinese would fail to deliver to them.

I hope it's just some shipping delay 🤞 or maybe pirates knew the grinders were on the way, and hijacked the boats...


----------



## ajohn

ajohn said:


> There is no straight answer to that. Just keep an eye on how hot the case gets. Unlike Mazzer the motor is separate from the case so I'd stop if it feels warm. Problem with motors is they take a lot longer to cool down than heat up unless they are fitted with a fan. It can also takes some time for winding heat to get to the case.
> 
> Start coarse well above espresso levels. That keeps the load down. Then visit espresso levels and later finish off at them. Maybe @DavecUK can suggest numbers as they are probably well calibrated. I'd estimate very fine espresso at say 5. The main problem is some would use a lot more beans. I've found even a kg makes a difference but have ordered 2.  Before I stop I'll try and tune an Amazon Happy Belly out of curiosity,


 🤣 He is using a setting of 12 - mind you no video of him drinking the shot


----------



## Beanhur

So is everyone saying a Sage Pro grinder at under £200 is not as good as the Niche and they can taste the difference between various grinder mill teeth ? and or configuration

Has anyone here actually looked at grind distribution consistency/suitability for their coffee production methods or is all the debate purely subjective and as one post i read said really more about justifying an individuals spend to convince themselves they have got the best bang for buck ??


----------



## MWJB

Beanhur said:


> So is everyone saying a Sage Pro grinder at under £200 is not as good as the Niche and they can taste the difference between various grinder mill teeth ? and or configuration
> 
> Has anyone here actually looked at grind distribution consistency/suitability for their coffee production methods or is all the debate purely subjective and as one post i read said really more about justifying an individuals spend to convince themselves they have got the best bang for buck ??


 Never try and taste grinder mill teeth, it will lead to great pain & certain embarrassment at the accident & emergency department.

This thread is primarily about the G-Iota DF64, not the Niche. But the Niche's attributes are mainly relating to single dose workflow, good dose consistency, quiet operation.

No one has looked at grind distribution in the course of this thread, why should they?

Yes, people are free to spend what they like. Good innit?


----------



## Beanhur

I find it fascinating that people buying this Solo grinder feel the need to take the burrs out start shimming the burrs before they even use it, in the belief that they will improve grind distribution to a point that they can taste a difference in their extractions.

I would expect the grinder to perform to an acceptable standard provided it was run in (seasoned) to knock the manufacturing tolerances off the mill teeth.

The debate rages with comments about shimming/motor temperature, how exciting 😑


----------



## MWJB

Beanhur said:


> I find it fascinating that people buying this Solo grinder feel the need to take the burrs out start shimming the burrs before they even use it, in the belief that they will improve grind distribution to a point that they can taste a difference in their extractions.
> 
> I would expect the grinder to perform to an acceptable standard provided it was run in (seasoned) to knock the manufacturing tolerances off the mill teeth.
> 
> The debate rages with comments about shimming/motor temperature, how exciting 😑


 It probably does perform acceptably, you have to go to some lengths to prevent that.

As with spend amounts, those with the tools & expertise are free to tinker in any way that makes them happy & report back on their observations.

There's not really a debate, some do, some don't.

It's incredibly easy to not expose yourself to things that don't interest you. Live & let live. 

If you have a point to make, make it. People might find it interesting. Others might ignore it completely, as they are free to do.


----------



## Beanhur

Absolutely agree with all you say including not tasting grinder teeth 😀 and I fully support buy what you like i just find al, the subjective comments amusing probably because I firmly believe in fact science and measurable tangible things when it comes to statements about performance of a grinder.

All great info though I can't wait for mine to arrive and do some testing use of it straight out of the box.


----------



## Rincewind

dreadnatty08 said:


> Can anyone with a Mignon give a comparison?


 ....and can anyone who also owns the NZ please do the same :waiting:


----------



## AnthonyTD

Beanhur said:


> I find it fascinating that people buying this Solo grinder feel the need to take the burrs out start shimming the burrs before they even use it, in the belief that they will improve grind distribution to a point that they can taste a difference in their extractions.
> 
> I would expect the grinder to perform to an acceptable standard provided it was run in (seasoned) to knock the manufacturing tolerances off the mill teeth.
> 
> The debate rages with comments about shimming/motor temperature, how exciting 😑


 Somehow I feel that was directed at me. To be honest I did not "feel a need" to shimm the burrs. Rather I was attracted to this grinder and in trying to find more information about it I stumbled across this forum. This forum along with the link to the polish one (given here too ) helped me to pull the trigger. Since it was available locally here and I got it sooner than everyone else I thought I could give back by doing a review of the construction of the grinder. Since I was pulling it apart anyway and I had seen questions about shimming I thought I would address that too.

It's called sharing and it is something I believe nice people do, so you could say I "felt the need to share" and I will happily admit to that.

Also, can you tell me what "knocking the manufacturing tolerances off the mill teeth" is? My understanding of manufacturing tollerances is where I, as a designer, define a dimension to be "5mm +- 0.1mm" which means I will accept it manufactured to any dimension between 5.1mm and 4.9mm. How does one knock off the tolerance by using the burrs? I dont think using them adds or subtracts metal untill the exact dimensions are met?

Could you possibly mean that using it removes the inevitable burrs (raised metal) brought upon as a consequence of the grinding of the burrs (coffee grinders blades)? That makes a lot more sense to me.


----------



## MrXXX2

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Maybe, but since HB mother company is the official distributor in Europe/EU, it seems unlikely that the Chinese would fail to deliver to them.
> 
> I hope it's just some shipping delay 🤞 or maybe pirates knew the grinders were on the way, and hijacked the boats...


 I also received the e-mail yesterday with 27.05., immediately replied asking if they meant 27.03. and they corrected the original information. So we still have to be a bit more patient 😅


----------



## ajohn

Beanhur said:


> find it fascinating that people buying this Solo grinder feel the need to take the burrs out start shimming the burrs before they even use it, i


 I sent a surprisingly cheap brand new Mazzer Mini back that refused to play ball. As I had another that did play ball I thought that's odd and just sent it back. I'm pretty sure what checking it over would have found.

 If I didn't have another mini I wouldn't have known that there was a problem with it.

Morel - why not check if you can.


----------



## mtjones55

Mine arrived 08:00AM today after ordering from Bella Barista last night, amazing service 🙂


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

mtjones55 said:


> Mine arrived 08:00AM today after ordering from Bella Barista last night, amazing service 🙂


 Let us know how you get on! I'd love to know your feedback!


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

MrXXX2 said:


> I also received the e-mail yesterday with 27.05., immediately replied asking if they meant 27.03. and they corrected the original information. So we still have to be a bit more patient 😅


 Yes, unfortunately it's out of their control, they can only pass the info they got from the transporter.

But the mail I received this morning said we should expect a little surprise in the package to thank us for our patience!


----------



## eyeabee

No expert, but I was under the impression burr seasoning was pretty common practice and makes a demonstrable difference to the result in the cup? I found this blog post on the subject of interest:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/coffeeadastra.com/2019/05/27/seasoning-grinder-burrs-and-grind-quality-2/amp/

I don't think that means you can't start enjoying your new grinder straight away, just know that the particle distribution etc etc (read the above link!) will settle down over time. I plan to run an extra couple of KG of junk beans through my new NZ over the course of the first couple of weeks, but I'm also planning to use it to make my morning espresso through that time!


----------



## ajohn

The NZ isn't too bad but I found drinks were a bit fierce for a while. Some found the dose needed dropping a bit as well. 1/2g in my case from 14. I generally work close to using an overloaded basket. It's a point where the dose increase doesn't do much at all to the grinder setting.

I enjoyed the fierceness for a while. Different beans may well behave differently as might different burrs.

What to do - tune to suite. I didn't and just stuck to my usual numbers other than dropping the dose. Grinds seem to expand a bit more moving from a mazzer mini to niche.


----------



## Bicky

If you feel the need to season the burrs, season them.

If you're unsure, make a couple of coffees. If you're not happy with them, or think they could be better, maybe try seasoning. If you do enjoy the coffee, then relax in the knowledge that the coffee you make for the next few months might get better and better 😎

Same for burr alignment. Unless you really must have the absolute best, or are simply curious, I say just go with it and see how you get on first, before thinking about shimming or anything like that!

For those who already have the grinder - *we need more photos*, please! 😁


----------



## Giampiero

eyeabee said:


> No expert, but I was under the impression burr seasoning was pretty common practice and makes a demonstrable difference to the result in the cup? I found this blog post on the subject of interest:
> 
> https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/coffeeadastra.com/2019/05/27/seasoning-grinder-burrs-and-grind-quality-2/amp/
> 
> I don't think that means you can't start enjoying your new grinder straight away, just know that the particle distribution etc etc (read the above link!) will settle down over time. I plan to run an extra couple of KG of junk beans through my new NZ over the course of the first couple of weeks, but I'm also planning to use it to make my morning espresso through that time!


 I do believe what i can see with my eyes....(not during the week end 🤣) and with my DF64 ( SOLO in your country), with Italmill burrs, i saw a difference like between night and day from the first ever grinds and the actual situation, so for me a sort of seasoning or we can call whatever we want, is necessary, maybe not with all kinds of burrs, but in my personal case yes.


----------



## emdr888

so far all seems well. The only little thing is it's always on standby unless you switch it off at the plug, unless I'm missing something.


----------



## Rudester

I thought i'd jump on to say that BB ship the Solo with a bag of beans. I assumed this was to season the burrs and began to feed them through mine. I soon found that the Solo has an automatic cut off after a short period. So there's no way you can overheat it.


----------



## emdr888

I got the free beans as well, I presumed it's a present and introduction to their roastery..as they're freshly roasted.


----------



## Coffee21

I got a bag of Milkbuster beans too (roasted 3 days ago). I think the auto shutoff is 45 seconds.


----------



## AnthonyTD

emdr888 said:


> so far all seems well. The only little thing is it's always on standby unless you switch it off at the plug, unless I'm missing something.


 I have my espresso machine and the grinder on a timer switch so that it is ready when we wake up and it is ready when I get home from work. So that ensures that the grinder is off when I dont need it.


----------



## AnthonyTD

While the grinder works very well and does a godo job or getting allt eh grinds into the dosing cup I have noticed that the pumping of the bellows does cause a some extra coffee grinds to get blown around the grinder so after a couple days there are some noticable grinds lying ont he counter. Not really a lot but enough for me to think something can be done about it. I designed a funnel to add to the dosing cup and 3D printed it this morning. Here is the link to the STL fiel if anyone else wants to print one:

If it works I will probably go and turn on eout of stainless or aluminum just bbecause it makes me feel better 😀


----------



## 27852

emdr888 said:


> I got the free beans as well, I presumed it's a present and introduction to their roastery..as they're freshly roasted.


 The ones I got for seasoning was a kilogram bag labelled "QC FAIL" and said they were to be used for seasoning. They gave me a bag of drinkable beans when I bought a new espresso machine.

If they've given you a 250g bag of milk buster, you can use them to season if you want but you are missing out on some nice milk drinks.


----------



## MHeath

I've run about 400g through so far. At present retention wise if I put 18 in I get 17.5 ish out, I need to pump, run the grinder and pump again to get up to about 17.9. Will this get better?


----------



## DavecUK

MHeath said:


> I've run about 400g through so far. At present retention wise if I put 18 in I get 17.5 ish out, I need to pump, run the grinder and pump again to get up to about 17.9. Will this get better?


 Does it need to?


----------



## MHeath

DavecUK said:


> Does it need to?


 Tbh I'm not hugely experienced with grinders, so I should be overdosing a bit to get 18g out? Or just pump away, switch on and off and pump again?


----------



## MWJB

MHeath said:


> Tbh I'm not hugely experienced with grinders, so I should be overdosing a bit to get 18g out? Or just pump away, switch on and off and pump again?


 If you regularly see 0.5g being retained, yes, add that 0.5g to the wholebean dose in. It's only about 3 beans.


----------



## MHeath

MWJB said:


> If you regularly see 0.5g being retained, yes, add that 0.5g to the wholebean dose in. It's only about 3 beans.


 Ok thanks


----------



## Mrboots2u

ajohn said:


> The NZ isn't too bad but I found drinks were a bit fierce for a while. Some found the dose needed dropping a bit as well. 1/2g in my case from 14. I generally work close to using an overloaded basket. It's a point where the dose increase doesn't do much at all to the grinder setting.
> 
> I enjoyed the fierceness for a while. Different beans may well behave differently as might different burrs.
> 
> What to do - tune to suite. I didn't and just stuck to my usual numbers other than dropping the dose. Grinds seem to expand a bit more moving from a mazzer mini to niche.


 What is fierce ? why would it mean you have to under dose . You changing the strength based on age of burrs . Why ? 
What does " dose increase doesn't do much to the the grinder setting Mean ? "


----------



## Iwasscammed

Im using the grinder now, with a setting of 12 for moka pot. granted i level off the moka pot with a knife so there is no compacting off the beans. any higher grind setting and i get an acidic taste, but im wondering. is 12 too low. Thats around espresso right?

I am on my 6th moka pot, so maybe the grinder just needs to be seasoned?

What do you guys think?

Could also be that im using lavazza beans that are £10 per kg


----------



## ajohn

MHeath said:


> I've run about 400g through so far. At present retention wise if I put 18 in I get 17.5 ish out, I need to pump, run the grinder and pump again to get up to about 17.9. Will this get better?


 That wouldn't surprise me at all so if you want to why not. You may find no need to do this after some days. Being evasive as hard to predict.


----------



## LuckyDip23

Mine grinder arrived today 

As with others I got a bag of QC failed beans to break the grinder in with with along with a free bag of Gaslight espresso blend from Bella Barista - which is a very nice and unexpected touch - top marks to them.

Theres a reassuring weight to the grinder - its feels solid. I got the "metallic black" which to me looks more like a matte black. Looks great.

I ran the cannon fodder through the grinder, and after that I was adding 18g into the cup, grinding with 3 or 4 pumps of the bellows towards the end and getting approx 0.2g less out most times, obviously enough more pumps = less retention.

Couple of times I manged to blow a bit more out than I got in, so there is a bit of retention from previous grinds- but not much.

Grinds look fluffy, there's not much static (tiny bits of clumping) and to my eyes seem pretty consistent.

Number wise espresso grind for the beans im using are between about 12 and 10 on the dial depending on what i was grinding - darker beans more towards the 12 & medium roasted more towards 10.

I've not got much to comapre it to - but so far im pretty impressed. I've been using an aincient Aristaco EMA80 which is completely not suitable for the single dosing I was doing and this thing is a million miles better. I've pulled a few shots and theyre probably the best I've pulled on my setup (Mr Shades PID modded Gaggia Classic) so were off to a very good start.

Heres a video showing a grind and the resulting ground coffee (it seems to sound really noisy on the video - but i dont think its that bad in real life):


----------



## FredBloggs

> 16 minutes ago, LuckyDip23 said:
> 
> Mine grinder arrived today
> 
> As with others I got a bag of QC failed beason to break the grinder in with with along with a free bag of Gaslight espresso blend from Bella Barista - which is a very nice and unexpected touch - top marks to them.
> 
> Theres a reassuring weight to the grinder - its feels solid. I got the "metallic black" which to me looks more like a matte black. Looks great.
> 
> I ran the cannon fodder through the grinder, and after that I was adding 18g into the cup, grinding with 3 or 4 pumps of the bellows towards the end and getting approx 0.2g less out most times, obviously enough more pumps = less retention.
> 
> Couple of times I manged to blow a bit more out than I got in, so there is a bit of retention from previous grinds- but not much.
> 
> Grinds look fluffy, there's not much static (tiny bits of clumping) and to my eyes seem pretty consistent.
> 
> Number wise espresso grind for the beans im using are between about 12 and 10 on the dial depending on what i was grinding - darker beans more towards the 12 & medium roasted more towards 10.
> 
> I've not got much to comapre it to - but so far im pretty impressed. I've been using an aincient Ascaso EMA80 which is completely not suitable for the single dosing I was doing and this thing is a million miles better. I've pulled a few shots and theyre probably the best I've pulled on my setup (Mr Shades PID modded Gaggia Classic) so were off to a very good start.
> 
> Heres a video showing a grind and the resulting ground cofffee:


 @LuckDip23 - Your comments pretty much echo mine. I received my grinder yesterday and have blown through about 250g up to this point. Interestingly, i set the grind initially at 7 based off of what BB stated in their blog. This chocked my Izzo Alex Duetto so i backed the grinder off to 10, same outcome. Eventually managed to get a half decent 1:2 (18g) shot from a grind setting of 23, which has now been dropped down to 19. These are cheap and cheerful (purposely so) beans though from Aldi at around £1.50 a bag. When the


----------



## Alfieboy

FredBloggs said:


> @LuckDip23 - Your comments pretty much echo mine. I received my grinder yesterday and have blown through about 250g up to this point. Interestingly, i set the grind initially at 7 based off of what BB stated in their blog. This chocked my Izzo Alex Duetto so i backed the grinder off to 10, same outcome. Eventually managed to get a half decent 1:2 (18g) shot from a grind setting of 23, which has now been dropped down to 19. These are cheap and cheerful (purposely so) beans though from Aldi at around £1.50 a bag. When the


 My experience too but too busy to mess with it ATM - 19 sounds good

At 10 I found it was the finest grind I've ever seen and knew it would choke the Elizabeth


----------



## ajohn

LuckyDip23 said:


> Theres a reassuring weight to the grinder - its feels solid. I got the "metallic black" which to me looks more like a matte black. Looks great.


 I had an email off BB stating that metallic black wasn't what they received so would be sending me matte black unless I contacted them.  Email took a while to arrive but said fine by me. Actually now I have matte black I think it would be what I would order. Slight sheen.


----------



## dutchy101

So my Cheltenham week has more than paid for my new grinder - trigger pulled with the 4 year warrantee. Looking forward to receiving it


----------



## Evan

First real critique I've got after almost a week of use is that last .5g like has been mentioned earlier. Quite often it goes straight through and there's no issues getting the good ol 18 in - 18 out, but once every now and then there's one last stubborn bean that won't get into the burrs and you'll have to puff away a handful of extra times to get it to grind (which to get almost perfectly 0 retention, isn't much of a problem at all. This is likely just a function of being a flat burr single dose, but still something I have noticed.

The portafilter forks work great with a ring straight into the basket, but the size of the holder spots is kinda awkwardly in between the perfect size for ecm portafilters (using the two sets of covers is a bit too much, but one set isn't quite enough, and does scratch the paint a bit if you don't have both covers on). I've opted for the slightly tight both sets to protect the finish, it doesn't affect the workflow at all, just a (very) slight annoyance.

The flavour of the espresso out of it seems really sweet and has been such an upgrade for my setup, and the quality of espresso I'm getting out of my machine. I also am loving the plain black paint more by the day, I think it looks great, and the little light behind the power button is also a good look IMO. Changing the grind setting based on the beans I'm grinding is super simple and I think the subtle marking on the front face does the job well, and also adds to the clean aesthetic of the grinder.

Certainly haven't regret my purchase yet, can't see myself upgrading to the SSP burrs for a while, the basic Italmill are making fantastic coffee.


----------



## Blues

@DavecUK do you have opinion about TiN burrs all ready ?


----------



## DavecUK

Blues said:


> @DavecUK do you have opinion about TiN burrs all ready ?


 I do, in my review...almost done, it's editing video that takes the time.

Personally, I would save your money and just use the burrs it came with.....


----------



## Blues

DavecUK said:


> I do, in my review...almost done, it's editing video that takes the time.
> 
> Personally, I would save your money and just use the burrs it came with.....


 I would but my grinder will come with TiN burrs mounted all ready.


----------



## FredBloggs

Interrupted by Asda Home Delivery earlier whilst writing my previous post 😄 So, as i was saying, whilst I am currently at a 19 on the grind i fully expect this to decrease somewhat as the burrs settle down. This will hopefully occur after i have put another 1kg of Aldi espresso beans through it. I then expect to have to back of the grind based upon my experience with my last new grinder, a Sette 270. This would coincide with moving back over onto my Rave Italian blend which is a lighter roast than the cheap Aldi beans.

Compared to the Sette the G64 is noticeably quieter which is a much welcome addition. However, the grind time is up somewhat from 5.7 secs on the Sette for 18g, i have not yet timed how long this takes on the G64 but it more in the order of 20+ seconds.

Retention is around the previously quoted 0.1g, however, this did take 3 to 4 18g shots to settle down.

Static, or rather the lack of it i am over the moon with, that and the reduction in clumping. The grind seems very uniform, which combined with the lack of static almost negates the need for a dosing funnel IMO.

I'm liking the matte black colouring which Olivia from BB advised me of on Wednesday when the grinders arrived in stock. Any resemblance to a duck or penguin has now been erased from my memory banks 😄

In short, compared to both my 1st ever grinder, a Rancillo MD50, followed up by a Sette 270W, then a non W version i would say this is the best grinder to date that i have owned.

Hope any new/prospective buyers are as happy as myself with your new purchase 👍🏻


----------



## profesor_historia

FredBloggs said:


> Interrupted by Asda Home Delivery earlier whilst writing my previous post  So, as i was saying, whilst I am currently at a 19 on the grind i fully expect this to decrease somewhat as the burrs settle down. This will hopefully occur after i have put another 1kg of Aldi espresso beans through it. I then expect to have to back of the grind based upon my experience with my last new grinder, a Sette 270. This would coincide with moving back over onto my Rave Italian blend which is a lighter roast than the cheap Aldi beans.
> 
> Compared to the Sette the G64 is noticeably quieter which is a much welcome addition. However, the grind time is up somewhat from 5.7 secs on the Sette for 18g, i have not yet timed how long this takes on the G64 but it more in the order of 20+ seconds.
> 
> Retention is around the previously quoted 0.1g, however, this did take 3 to 4 18g shots to settle down.
> 
> Static, or rather the lack of it i am over the moon with, that and the reduction in clumping. The grind seems very uniform, which combined with the lack of static almost negates the need for a dosing funnel IMO.
> 
> I'm liking the matte black colouring which Olivia from BB advised me of on Wednesday when the grinders arrived in stock. Any resemblance to a duck or penguin has now been erased from my memory banks
> 
> In short, compared to both my 1st ever grinder, a Rancillo MD50, followed up by a Sette 270W, then a non W version i would say this is the best grinder to date that i have owned.
> 
> Hope any new/prospective buyers are as happy as myself with your new purchase


20 seconds for 18gr? Are you sure? It seems a lot.


----------



## MHeath

Very impressed with my grinder, the quality of the grind is fantastic, really even and fluffy, pulling the best shots I've done. It's a world apart from the mahlkonig Vario I was using.


----------



## FredBloggs

profesor_historia said:


> FredBloggs said:
> 
> 
> 
> Interrupted by Asda Home Delivery earlier whilst writing my previous post    So, as i was saying, whilst I am currently at a 19 on the grind i fully expect this to decrease somewhat as the burrs settle down. This will hopefully occur after i have put another 1kg of Aldi espresso beans through it. I then expect to have to back of the grind based upon my experience with my last new grinder, a Sette 270. This would coincide with moving back over onto my Rave Italian blend which is a lighter roast than the cheap Aldi beans.
> 
> Compared to the Sette the G64 is noticeably quieter which is a much welcome addition. However, the grind time is up somewhat from 5.7 secs on the Sette for 18g, i have not yet timed how long this takes on the G64 but it more in the order of 20+ seconds.
> 
> Retention is around the previously quoted 0.1g, however, this did take 3 to 4 18g shots to settle down.
> 
> Static, or rather the lack of it i am over the moon with, that and the reduction in clumping. The grind seems very uniform, which combined with the lack of static almost negates the need for a dosing funnel IMO.
> 
> I'm liking the matte black colouring which Olivia from BB advised me of on Wednesday when the grinders arrived in stock. Any resemblance to a duck or penguin has now been erased from my memory banks
> 
> In short, compared to both my 1st ever grinder, a Rancillo MD50, followed up by a Sette 270W, then a non W version i would say this is the best grinder to date that i have owned.
> 
> Hope any new/prospective buyers are as happy as myself with your new purchase
> 
> 
> 
> 20 seconds for 18gr? Are you sure? It seems a lot.
Click to expand...

 Just run 19.3g through it (VST 18g ridgeless basket) , took just under 20 seconds so yes it ain't nowhere near as quick as the Sette.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

One issue that was mentioned quite often before people actually owned it was the button placement.

Now that many people are using it, do you think the placement at the bottom is awkward or is it fine? Are you using the dosing cup or straight in the PF?


----------



## MHeath

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> One issue that was mentioned quite often before people actually owned it was the button placement.
> 
> Now that many people are using it, do you think the placement at the bottom is awkward or is it fine? Are you using the dosing cup or straight in the PF?


 It's ok, it would be easier if it was on the side, would make sense but hey!


----------



## mtjones55

Upon checking my Bella barista delivery, i also received a large bag of QC failed beans, and a bag of Gaslight espresso,

again unexpected and very welcome, ground the QC beans and then a quick try with my beans of the week, Extract Coffee Dr Strangelove,

grind setting around 10 seemed to be about right,

ill have another go in the morning to confirm that


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

MHeath said:


> It's ok, it would be easier if it was on the side, would make sense but hey!


 I think the best would've been the top center where the grind setting marker is but at least, they seem to have put their money in what actually makes a reliable machine and a good cup 

Depending on the grinder placement and your dominant hand, a side button could be a bit awkward as well.


----------



## naturalganja

DavecUK said:


> I do, in my review...almost done, it's editing video that takes the time.
> 
> Personally, I would save your money and just use the burrs it came with.....


 I can imagine the results not being too far apart if using high uniformity SSP (probably faster with SSP I assume?) but I'd be surprised if there is notable difference with the Unimodal (revised version--> multi-purpose). This is pure speculation as I have tried neither of these, only the original unimodal before they slightly changed the geometry to produce more fines at espresso range, and it was very hard to work with but still, very rewarding.

My grinder just shipped from Singapore so probably a while to get it to Canada... I plan on getting the unimodal but they are very hard to find, most suppliers I have reached out to only carry the high uniformity (or don't even which ones they have) and the only one I have found that will sell the unimodal won't have it in stock until mid-april... Will give me some time to play with the italmill!

Looking forward to your review!


----------



## Evan

@Rincewind sorry man, not really following what you're trying to say, is that a question?


----------



## Rincewind

Evan said:


> @Rincewind sorry man, not really following what you're trying to say, is that a question?


 No apologies necessary buddy, no, not a question.


----------



## AnthonyTD

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> One issue that was mentioned quite often before people actually owned it was the button placement.
> 
> Now that many people are using it, do you think the placement at the bottom is awkward or is it fine? Are you using the dosing cup or straight in the PF?


 I am not finding it akward at all. There is enough space under the supplied dosing cup to slide you thumb under and press the button. If you were to dose directly into the portafilter there is even more space under it.


----------



## Beanhur

Received mine yesterday and have to say Wow very fluffy almost zero retention quiet enough but also very consistent output grind distribution.

Using Profitec 700 testing tds with vst refractometer results very impressive, my every day Atom is out used but Solo going to be put to use with a range of Single Origins.

So far very pleased with Solo and comments on here made it an easier choice so thanks to the members who made my choice easier.


----------



## Alfieboy

mtjones55 said:


> Upon checking my Bella barista delivery, i also received a large bag of QC failed beans, and a bag of Gaslight espresso,
> 
> again unexpected and very welcome, ground the QC beans and then a quick try with my beans of the week, Extract Coffee Dr Strangelove,
> 
> grind setting around 10 seemed to be about right,
> 
> ill have another go in the morning to confirm that


 My first effort on 10 resulted in a puck like a concrete motorway

Went up to 20 and working my way down - at 15 currently

Didn't get a bag of failed beans though only 250g of milk buster

How did this AM go?


----------



## mtjones55

This morning coffee went well, seemed a bit slow so upped my grind setting to 12,

Grinds nice and fluffy with no clumping,

weighed a couple of grinds and they were within .1 of a gram

I'm still trying to figure how to dial in my grind with my Synchronika as i have the ECM flow control fitted,

been opening flow control 1 1/4 turns to resemble standard flow rate while adjusting grind , then while pulling a shot opening the flow control a 1/4 of a turn till i see coffee on the bottom of the basket before opening another turn then closing gradually as shot pours


----------



## ajohn

Just checked the lower burr on mine with a DTI. Maybe 10um error. Too small to call really measured this way due to the shape of the burr top so if I could use my lathe at the moment I'd turn up a 64mm ring.

It would have been nicer if they had chamfered the top end of the adjustment thread on the body a bit really but shouldn't cause problems. Looks like the adjustment thread is pre lubricated. Something softer and easier to apply than what is usually used. Lip salve should be suitable if needed.  Unflavoured unless you want cherry coffee.


----------



## DavecUK

@ajohn You must have a very good DTI to measure down to 10 Micron.. The actual marks on the dial allow for repeatable grind adjustments of 6 micron quite easily...probably even less. It allows for a much finer range of adjustment (done easily) than many grinders I've used.


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> You must have a very good DTI to measure down to 10 Micron.


 I have even better actually but the 10um is an indication not a true measurement to um levels but will be close. Checking with a pen marking shows the same thing. DTI's are for comparison really not measurement but actually aren't that bad for that providing the difference is small. 🤣 Teach me to suck eggs if you want to try but ........

 Top burr maybe not so good but to be expected due to used of several parts. Have to guess shim for that so will try 2 in this case rather thin ones. Foil - give me an idea how big the error is.

A tip - the lack of the chamfer on the body thread means it's a good idea to remove the adjustment ring from the burr carrier, fit that and then the ring. You may think you have the pegs in the right place but ..... 🤕I nearly had a whoopsy doing both together. It would have been a serious one.


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> I have even better actually but the 10um is an indication not a true measurement to um levels but will be close. Checking with a pen marking shows the same thing. DTI's are for comparison really not measurement but actually aren't that bad for that providing the difference is small. 🤣 Teach me to suck eggs if you want to try but ........


 @ajohn I didn't teach you to suck eggs at all John just commented on the equipment you must have? I used to work in a company called Sci Mech back in the day (44 years ago). I think I mentioned before, we only had a single lathe that would work down to 0.0003 inch...or 7.5 micron. We had a high reject rate and the temperature of the workshop was critical. I couldn't work to lesser tolerances, or even that one reliably, just touching the component in the lathe with bare fingers would change the readings. I realise things have moved on in the last 45 years, although I'm not sure grinder burr mounts, carriers and motors are the sorts of components that can actually achieve accuracies of even 10 micron....probably nowhere close.

In the home, the average consumer (not you), would have a great deal of trouble aligning a grinder when a piece of foil can be 20 micron and simply holding the carrier at one edge might add 2 micron. Aluminium alloy expands roughly 25 micron per metre per 1C...as I learnt from bitter experience during the morning and afternoon temperature change turning those damn rings.. 🤣


----------



## ajohn

I've been collecting stuff for years and started working with a company that said ok you will train as a toolmaker first - pre war style as well. Totally pointless really as accuracy is easier to achieve with various grinders. Even more so in a temperature controlled area.  Your lucky mine included a few months with hand files - character building and my square within a square 1/2" thick did very nearly fit perfectly all ways round.

DTI 20um divisions so nothing special. I still have imperial around to 0.0001". Metric to 1um even with a mic is a bit of a joke really. 1/10 thou" on a mic not so bad with practice.


----------



## Rob1

Beanhur said:


> So is everyone saying a Sage Pro grinder at under £200 is not as good as the Niche and they can taste the difference between various grinder mill teeth ? and or configuration
> 
> Has anyone here actually looked at grind distribution consistency/suitability for their coffee production methods or is all the debate purely subjective and as one post i read said really more about justifying an individuals spend to convince themselves they have got the best bang for buck ??


 Not sure what you're trying to get at really. People report they can taste the difference between grinders, some less than others. Objective measurement and theoretical best grinder for your brew method doesn't mean it will be the best for you, subjectively speaking. Though they are the only thing you have in the absence of hands on experience, objective measures are of little use when you've got the two grinders to compare side-by-side. Grind distribution isn't even the only thing that matters, though I may be out-dated with the theory I believe particle shape is also an issue, with some grinders producing rounder particles than others.

Comparing specific burr sizes and designs isn't really possible because you're also comparing motor speeds, bearings, alignment etc. Some grinders are capable of taking multiple burr sizes and designs e.g. lagom option o, mazzer mini stock vs sj, and the G-iota even has two burr sets, and in these cases users report taste differences between burrs, so in answer to your question about mill teeth, the answer is yes. Same for burr sizes (mazzer example). I think Hoffmann may have compared two different burrs in the Lagom or another grinder he has tested and that video may be on youtube somewhere unless I've just made it up.

The difference between a small conical and large conical is fairly obvious though not completely different, while flat to conical comparisons are more distinct. I've had a Lido, Pharos and Niche side by side and could tell the difference between the smaller and larger burrs easily. Even the Pharos and Niche were different but the Pharos was well broken in at the time of testing and the Niche was new. Crank speed makes a surprising difference with hand grinders though so even with a basic design and good alignment, without a consistent spin speed it's hard to compare based on burrs sizes...

Regarding your specific example, the rhetorical argument that it's about justifying spend etc doesn't logically apply to the Niche as you can sell it for a profit even after using it, so if anything users are more likely to say they can't taste the difference and make a profit while retaining their old equipment cosy in the knowledge all this upgrade stuff is nonsense. Some people may perform mental gymnastics to justify their spending, others may do the same to avoid spending but I have no reason to make assumptions either way. You might well prefer shots from the G-iota to the Niche but that doesn't mean you're fooling yourself so you can save money, it just means the more expensive grinder isn't worth as much as the cheaper grinder to you; if you prefer shots from the Niche it doesn't mean you're fooling yourself because you don't want to admit you've wasted money. I've got a 83mm Flat sitting here collecting dust and I'm not selling it (or the Niche) because as far as I'm concerned I'd regret not having both...probably the moment I sell one or the other.

Grind distribution charts, EY measures etc don't tell you how a shot tastes. The only relevant grinder assessment method to users is their own subjective one. If the rhetorical argument regarding subjectivity and psychological justification is somehow sensible then logically it also applies to objective measurement, i.e. I prefer shots from grinder a compared to grinder b, but grinder b has a tighter particle distribution that is reportedly better for my intended brew method and therefore grinder b is better and I've made the right decision to buy it, I will sell a and learn to live with b.


----------



## 27852

So probably too early to ask and will be like throwing firecrackers into a bin but... How does it compare to the Niche Zero?


----------



## ajohn

Kjk said:


> How does it compare to the Niche Zero?


 I've been using a Niche for near 2 years. How long do you think it would take to compare. 1month, 12 months?


----------



## 27852

ajohn said:


> I've been using a Niche for near 2 years. How long do you think it would take to compare. 1month, 12 months?


 Well the rest of all time is the most representative period.


----------



## lake_m

Once the burrs are seasoned you could have a reasonable stab at it I would have thought.


----------



## ajohn

lake_m said:


> Once the burrs are seasoned you could have a reasonable stab at it I would have thought.


 No chance in terms of different beans and even retention needs plenty of use really. Running the burrs in fully can take rather a lot of beans. 1/4kg so far as quick as it can and warmed up so time to give it a rest.  Amazon Happy Belly grinding pretty well but was hoping for a bit more compression and may get more at espresso levels.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I have a question, and I'm very sorry if it's too lame, but I don't know how those things work...

Would it be possible to vary the speed of the motor by adding a potentiometer / SSR voltage regulator? Or is this just not how it works?


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Would it be possible to vary the speed of the motor by adding a potentiometer / SSR voltage regulator? Or is this just not how it works?


 No...not really.


----------



## RichC

I believe you would lose significant torque doing it that way, so not ideal. It depends on the type of motor though.

A gearbox is usually a better option for reducing grinder speed, granted harder to retrofit.


----------



## ajohn

A variable speed drive on normal AC motors can be done but max torque drops as the speed is reduced.  You could try buying a 240v 3 phase VFD and run 3 at the same time.


----------



## luisenriquereyes

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I have a question, and I'm very sorry if it's too lame, but I don't know how those things work...
> 
> Would it be possible to vary the speed of the motor by adding a potentiometer / SSR voltage regulator? Or is this just not how it works?


 This person has modded his Mazzer to variable speed:


----------



## Rob1

> 3 minutes ago, luisenriquereyes said:
> 
> This person has modded his Mazzer to variable speed:


 Apparently requires three phase.


----------



## RichC

Rob1 said:


> Apparently requires three phase.


 Yes that would make sense. Three phase motors turn at a speed determined by the frequency of the voltage, so you can slow them down them without loss of torque by reducing the frequency.

Sadly not applicable to single phase.


----------



## ajohn

RichC said:


> Three phase motors turn at a speed determined by the frequency of the voltage, so you can slow them down them without loss of torque by reducing the frequency.


 No reducing the frequency reduces the max power that the motor can produce. In terms of torque a gear box increases it less the losses it introduces.


----------



## RichC

ajohn said:


> No reducing the frequency reduces the max power that the motor can produce. In terms of torque a gear box increases it less the losses it introduces.


 You get less power, but equal torque (which makes sense as you're spinning slower). If you go above rated frequency you get reduced torque (since you can't gain power).


----------



## ajohn

RichC said:


> You get less power, but equal torque (which makes sense as you're spinning slower). If you go above rated frequency you get reduced torque (since you can't gain power).


 I suppose that is true in a coffee grinder providing the it doesn't use a motor with a self driven fan built in it. It isn't on typical motors.

 I'm inclined to think about it in machine tool terms having converted my lathe. With 240v 3 phase motors the chances are that a grinder could be run at 60hz. They may even be wired so they can be converted between that and 440v.


----------



## ajohn

Anyone have any idea how these are stripped completely in respect to removing the spout?

If I try my usual oily monsooned it's highly likely to need that doing. It's a problem to some extent on all grinders.

I've shimmed the top burr. Running in at a setting of 25 and 250g fed in by filling the hopper again and again seems to be a reasonably limit. Casing warms up and continues to do so afterwards. The shimming has increased the load as the grind is more even now. The heating up doesn't take long - cooling again will.


----------



## emdr888

Anyone got their Solo on a Lelit knockbox tray.... just wondering if the box is strong enough and if it vibrates or not.


----------



## Alfieboy

Kjk said:


> So probably too early to ask and will be like throwing firecrackers into a bin but... How does it compare to the Niche Zero?


 This was how I compared them


----------



## _HH_

Uncletits said:


> This was how I compared them
> 
> View attachment 55379
> 
> 
> View attachment 55380


 One.... keeps things warm and one makes them bigger?


----------



## Giampiero

I'm already at the second phase....the personalization😂


----------



## Rincewind

Giampiero said:


> I'm already at the second phase....the personalization😂
> 
> View attachment 55451


 Is that Burnley Football Club ?


----------



## Giampiero

Rincewind said:


> Is that Burnley Football Club ?


 Colors uniform are more similar to the Bolton Wanderers F.C....i just checked on wiki 😃,anyway this is my hometown football club, Bologna F.C., a bit OT, i'll back in line😉


----------



## Rincewind

Giampiero said:


> Colors uniform are more similar to the Bolton Wanderes F.C....i just checked on wiki 😃,anyway this is my hometown football club, Bologna F.C., a bit OT, i'll back in line😉


 I'll take your word for it as i'm utterly clueless when it comes to football. As for BWFC they'd have to pay "me" to advertise their name on a grinder....you do realise you've probably started a trend :classic_wink:


----------



## naturalganja

I just received notification from UPS to pay my custom fees, my grinder will be delivered tomorrow in Toronto!
Shipped from China on the 19th, delivery scheduled for the 23rd, unreal...
Ordered from David at The Gluons (contact him through facebook) for $375 USD + $100 for shipping


----------



## 29244

naturalganja said:


> I just received notification from UPS to pay my custom fees, my grinder will be delivered tomorrow in Toronto!
> Shipped from China on the 19th, delivery scheduled for the 23rd, unreal...
> Ordered from David at The Gluons (contact him through facebook) for $375 USD + $100 for shipping


 Would love to hear your thoughts when you've had a play.


----------



## ajohn

tompoland said:


> Would love to hear your thoughts when you've had a play.


 I have. Fore people who ask about it and Niche. I'd be inclined to say that if some one was given both and used them for a couple of weeks they may well decide to keep Niche.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

ajohn said:


> I have. Fore people who ask about it and Niche. I'd be inclined to say that if some one was given both and used them for a couple of weeks they may well decide to keep Niche.


 What do you take into account when saying this? Looks, grind quality, ease of use, noise, build quality?

Personally, I much prefer the industrial look, and as a European, paying almost half the price of the Niche for similar quality cup is certainly non negligible (not talking about flat/conical difference, as I have no reference on that).


----------



## 27852

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> What do you take into account when saying this? Looks, grind quality, ease of use, noise, build quality?
> 
> Personally, I much prefer the industrial look, and as a European, paying almost half the price of the Niche for similar quality cup is certainly non negligible (not talking about flat/conical difference, as I have no reference on that).


 I suspect many would be willing to make a few compromises against pricing/availability if this is a viable route into single dosing.


----------



## dutchy101

So mine has arrived this afternoon. Looking forward to getting cracking with it. It feels like one solid piece of kit - was very surprised by how much heavier it is than my current grinder.

So here goes for the first stupid question. I wanted to take the top off to have a look at the burrs. When putting it back on, how do you know how many times you need to screw it back on clockwise? I have got it to a point where I think the resistance seems to be right for what should be the zero point, but looking at the burrs through the top there still seems to be quite a gap between the two. Does this close up when the motor runs? Obviously I don't want to over tighten it and wreck the burrs - just not sure they seem close enough to be at a point where they could be damaged. If the gap closes when the grinder is turned on then this would make sense.

I have absolutely zero experience with flat burr grinders as you can probably tell.


----------



## ajohn

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> What do you take into account when saying this? Looks, grind quality, ease of use, noise, build quality?
> 
> Personally, I much prefer the industrial look, and as a European, paying almost half the price of the Niche for similar quality cup is certainly non negligible (not talking about flat/conical difference, as I have no reference on that).


 Definitely ease of use. Differences in the cup probably but that is where things get extremely difficult as grinders do show that but it's not a 100mm flat with super dupa burrs. So say some one wants to use 64mm versions of those assuming they do what they should do expect to have to shim the burrs to better then 20um. This is why some single dose grinders cost rather a lot of money. £1000's. The 64mm burrs cost the £180 odd. One type maybe more but oddly no stock suggesting people do not want them anyway.

For a single grinder and £100 difference in price afraid I would wonder. For some one who wants 2 grinders things are a bit different - it's an opportunity to try flat against Niche but not in terms of what is seen as the best possible flat. That wont happen over night. However for a fair comparison it needs to be perfect.


----------



## AnthonyTD

dutchy101 said:


> So mine has arrived this afternoon. Looking forward to getting cracking with it. It feels like one solid piece of kit - was very surprised by how much heavier it is than my current grinder.
> 
> So here goes for the first stupid question. I wanted to take the top off to have a look at the burrs. When putting it back on, how do you know how many times you need to screw it back on clockwise? I have got it to a point where I think the resistance seems to be right for what should be the zero point, but looking at the burrs through the top there still seems to be quite a gap between the two. Does this close up when the motor runs? Obviously I don't want to over tighten it and wreck the burrs - just not sure they seem close enough to be at a point where they could be damaged. If the gap closes when the grinder is turned on then this would make sense.
> 
> I have absolutely zero experience with flat burr grinders as you can probably tell.


 So it's simple - just close the lid till the burrs touch - this will probnablt be a little past the zero mark so then back off past zero to your desired setting.

Next question I guess is how to determine when they burrs touch - the best way to do this without damaging your burrs is to do it without power. Start by turning the bottom bur by hand with the burrs definitly not touching.(if you cannot reach into it you can get a 14mm socket spanner and use that to turn the burr. This will give you an idea of what the resistance is without the burrs touching. It there shoudl be almost no resistance.

You also want to turn the burrs backwards (counter clockwise in this case) so if the burrs do touch you are sliding the blades against each other in reverse.

Then just tighten the top till you start to feel more resitance to tightening and manually again try to turn the burrs - you will know when they are against each other. From here back of to the zero mark.


----------



## Giampiero

dutchy101 said:


> So mine has arrived this afternoon. Looking forward to getting cracking with it. It feels like one solid piece of kit - was very surprised by how much heavier it is than my current grinder.
> 
> So here goes for the first stupid question. I wanted to take the top off to have a look at the burrs. When putting it back on, how do you know how many times you need to screw it back on clockwise? I have got it to a point where I think the resistance seems to be right for what should be the zero point, but looking at the burrs through the top there still seems to be quite a gap between the two. Does this close up when the motor runs? Obviously I don't want to over tighten it and wreck the burrs - just not sure they seem close enough to be at a point where they could be damaged. If the gap closes when the grinder is turned on then this would make sense.
> 
> I have absolutely zero experience with flat burr grinders as you can probably tell.


 AnthonyTD already explain well, i add that, once you want to screw in the graduate wheel, just keep pushing the coffee beans funnel/upper burr carrier, so you will be able to screw in easily the graduate wheel without the risk to wrongly engage the threads.


----------



## Nightrider_1uk

ajohn said:


> Definitely ease of use.


 That would do it for me. Hopefully though, I hope these grinders take off, Might ease the que's for the Niche on the next drop, but I doubt it.


----------



## ajohn

The only lack of ease of use on the Niche is the grinds cup rather than nice sensibly compacted level grinds directly into the portafilter - not an usual problem and lots use grind cups these days anyway. Some very gentle evening up with a finger can fix that and more practice with the cup helps.

This grinder may do that and it's not that unusual for burrs to need shimming on flats. The grinds are fluffy though. Alignment on Niche appears to be engineered out. Grinds a bit less fluffy but not up to the level seen in coffee shops. Beans and all sorts come into that. That sort of result may only be possible with a hopper on the grinder.

What I wanted to get across is that just fitting expensive burrs is unlikely to be a case of just undoing the screws and fitting them. That is likely to be true of any flat burr grinder. I think people even do this on EK43s's but not sure.

Bean bounce is said to cause grinds distribution changes. A feature of dosing flat burr grinders. Leave the lid off and a bean is likely to pop out. The G forces they use to break the beans up are surprisingly high. Pop corning is the term that is usually used.  I'm convinced this doesn't matter so much on conical yet a disc has been fitted which more or less prevents it. I'd be inclined to dispute what it was said to do as well from changes I have made.

Some of these are unknowns in some ways but Niche is solid just about all is known now. Mind you I would ask for some changes on a MK2 but is anything perfect?

I'm also pretty sure any bean can be thrown at Niche and it will do what is expected. Not so sure on this one going on my use so far.

 So you take your pick really but I wouldn't want new buyers to think buy and all of the questions are over. Yes you can single dose but you can do with others as well. The main thing is the puff of air. The slope helps but isn't the end of the story.


----------



## dutchy101

Thanks @AnthonyTD and @Giampiero I hadn't realised about pushing down on the funnel - think I've got it cracked now.


----------



## DavecUK

Well did my Mini review

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2021/03/23/solo-64mm-elr-grinder-review/


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

@ajohn what are the lacks of ease of use in the Solo/G-iota?

Except for the puffing needed, I don't see much difference in the use compared to the Niche.

Putting shims, or switching burrs, that's nice, but not absolutely needed for a good cup, from what I read in the reviews.

Cleanup also seems quite straightforward.


----------



## profesor_historia

DavecUK said:


> Well did my Mini review
> https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2021/03/23/solo-64mm-elr-grinder-review/


Thanks Dave


----------



## dutchy101

Was a little poorly prepared earlier and only had enough beans for one coffee to hand. I ground them at setting 10 and they choked up the machine - the grinds were so fluffy though.

I had some coffee in the freezer but hadn't defrosted it so tried a second attempt with the milk buster beans that BB threw in with the grinder. I'd taken the top burr off before putting these in and don't think I had aligned the burrs properly - the coffee coming out was in quite big particles - like an instant. Not sure whether this was down to the coffee not being rested enough (roast date of 18th March) or the grinder burrs not being aligned properly.

Had to collect my son from school by which point it was too late for coffee. Have now tightened the lower burr and think the burrs should be aligned better. I go again tomorrow.


----------



## profesor_historia

dutchy101 said:


> Was a little poorly prepared earlier and only had enough beans for one coffee to hand. I ground them at setting 10 and they choked up the machine - the grinds were so fluffy though.
> I had some coffee in the freezer but hadn't defrosted it so tried a second attempt with the milk buster beans that BB threw in with the grinder. I'd taken the top burr off before putting these in and don't think I had aligned the burrs properly - the coffee coming out was in quite big particles - like an instant. Not sure whether this was down to the coffee not being rested enough (roast date of 18th March) or the grinder burrs not being aligned properly.
> Had to collect my son from school by which point it was too late for coffee. Have now tightened the lower burr and think the burrs should be aligned better. I go again tomorrow.


I always grind directly from the freezer, don't need to use it defrost, no? On contrary, I've read you get better results.


----------



## MWJB

profesor_historia said:


> I always grind directly from the freezer, don't need to use it defrost, no? On clntaey, I've read you get better results.


 Coffee beans are essentially 'frozen' at room temp. There shouldn't be any need to thaw before grinding.


----------



## ajohn

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> what are the lacks of ease of use in the Solo/G-iota?


 Several puffs may be needed against no puffs and retention style but my main point was alignment especially if some one fits high end burrs. Grind time / rate tends to relate to bean bounce. What they happen to do while grinding. One or two will be reluctant about getting where they need to be from time to time.

As Dave mentions in the review similar features are likely to be experienced with other flat burr grinders used this way. I wouldn't argue with that review at all but my conclusion is that if some one had Niche and this one in front of them and used them for a while they would probably choose Niche. I would, looks having nothing to do with that. I have noticed some do not like the looks of NIche.

Both of them are likely to produce better grinds with use. I've noticed that on both Niche and other flats.


----------



## PartySausage

@DavecUK Thanks for the mini review.

I've been finding that my solo is struggling with grinding where the grinder appears to be clogging at the exit chute and require a lot of pumping of the bellows to get all the grounds out, initially the bellows don't push much out & you can feel resistance building accompanied by the sensation that the bellows aren't pushing air through freely, then after a while you get a big slug of grounds, (around 3-4g) which contain a lot of fines.

I took the burrs out today to inspect the internals & noticed that the exit chute has some sort of segmented silicon baffle. I thought it might be something to do with preventing grounds from exiting the chute too quickly & spraying everywhere, but in my case seems to actually be restricting the flow too much & the grounds a backing up behind it. Do you have any idea what the function of this baffle is?


----------



## ajohn

MWJB said:


> Coffee beans are essentially 'frozen' at room temp. There shouldn't be any need to thaw before grinding.


 I found they can catch a fair amount of water from the air maybe even out of the fridge at some times of year and that can cause problems.

Experiences vary.


----------



## DavecUK

PartySausage said:


> @DavecUK Thanks for the mini review.
> 
> I've been finding that my solo is struggling with grinding where the grinder appears to be clogging at the exit chute and require a lot of pumping of the bellows to get all the grounds out, initially the bellows don't push much out & you can feel resistance building accompanied by the sensation that the bellows aren't pushing air through freely, then after a while you get a big slug of grounds, (around 3-4g) which contain a lot of fines.
> 
> I took the burrs out today to inspect the internals & noticed that the exit chute has some sort of segmented silicon baffle. I thought it might be something to do with preventing grounds from exiting the chute too quickly & spraying everywhere, but in my case seems to actually be restricting the flow too much & the grounds a backing up behind it. Do you have any idea what the function of this baffle is?
> 
> View attachment 55573


 It's the anti spray baffle.....Mine seems fine and doesn't hold up the grinds...but it was removed and refitted at Bella Barista before I got it...? Just check all the leaflets are opening OK.


----------



## PartySausage

DavecUK said:


> It's the anti spray baffle.....Mine seems fine and doesn't hold up the grinds...but it was removed and refitted at Bella Barista before I got it...? Just check all the leaflets are opening OK.


 Thanks Dave. I do initially get grinds out but as I get towards the end of my dose they slow then stop requiring much bellows pumping then a big slug comes out. I'll try to make a short video tomorrow & see what you think if that's OK


----------



## HaggisMoose

PartySausage said:


> Thanks Dave. I do initially get grinds out but as I get towards the end of my dose they slow then stop requiring much bellows pumping then a big slug comes out. I'll try to make a short video tomorrow & see what you think if that's OK


 This happens in my Solo too. You do a few pumps when the grinds stop coming out but it pushes a larger clump on maybe the 2-3 push of the bellows.


----------



## ajohn

HaggisMoose said:


> This happens in my Solo too. You do a few pumps when the grinds stop coming out but it pushes a larger clump on maybe the 2-3 push of the bellows.


 It could also be why I mentioned that it might not be suitable for all beans. I am sure Niche will take all thrown at it due to a bean I use most of the time. This one may not. I'm still looking at that.


----------



## Alfieboy

Are you doing as recommended in Dave's review?


----------



## PartySausage

HaggisMoose said:


> This happens in my Solo too. You do a few pumps when the grinds stop coming out but it pushes a larger clump on maybe the 2-3 push of the bellows.


 It's sort of reassuring that I'm not an isolated case. I mainly use light roasts and dose at 15g, with 18g for decaf. Even at 0 my lightest Myanmar roast is a bit of a gusher! & the Decaf runs about right at 5. On my Niche these are dialled in at 4 & 10 respectively so low down on the scale there too.

I noticed in the@DavecUK review that his burr touching point is around 15 on the scale, whereas mine is actually off-scale at the 'a' of adjust!

You might ask why go for a Solo when I have a Niche? I've never used a flat burr grinder & I'd read/heard that it can't bring out some more of the subtle flavours present in lighter roasts so the Solo seemed like a relatively economic way of seeing what flat burrs might bring to the espresso party

Maybe the Solo isn't really suitable for light roasts at low doses especially when using IMS baskets, which require a finer grind.

I'll persevere a little longer before deciding, if it might have to be returned. I'd be interested in hearing how anyone else who's using light roasts at low doses is getting on with the Solo?


----------



## PartySausage

Uncletits said:


> Are you doing as recommended in Dave's review?


 That's how I've been working though have tried while the grounds have been exiting the chute to try & stop it from backing up with little difference.


----------



## HaggisMoose

PartySausage said:


> That's how I've been working though have tried while the grounds have been exiting the chute to try & stop it from backing up with little difference.


 Same. I wait until the main grinding has finished then do a few pushes of the bellows. On the second or third one normally a clump of grinds will drop and that's everything clear.

As for touching point, mine is the same as your past the 0 by another 10-15 on the scale.


----------



## DavecUK

@PartySausage my zero point was at 0 until I installed the TiN burrs. I'm sure that I said in one of my videos unless it ended up on the cutting room floor the TiN burrs must have been each 90 micron thicker.

I had no problems at all with light roasts?

P.S. the marker disk is stuck on so it doesn't surprise me the 9 points differ.


----------



## MHeath

DavecUK said:


> @PartySausage my zero point was at 0 until I installed the TiN burrs. I'm sure that I said in one of my videos unless it ended up on the cutting room floor the TiN burrs must have been each 90 micron thicker.
> 
> I had no problems at all with light roasts?
> 
> P.S. the marker disk is stuck on so it doesn't surprise me the 9 points differ.


 My burrs touch quite a bit past zero too, can it be calibrated or is it just how it is and not a big deal?


----------



## DavecUK

MHeath said:


> My burrs touch quite a bit past zero too, can it be calibrated or is it just how it is and not a big deal?


 It's no biggie, I just put a white dot with a chalk pen on mine. Having a moveable scale like on a circular slide rule would have been nice but would have probably come loose.


----------



## PartySausage

MHeath said:


> My burrs touch quite a bit past zero too, can it be calibrated or is it just how it is and not a big deal?


 I may be incorrect but don't believe there's any easy way to change the touching point without padding the burrs with additional shims. Functionally I doubt it makes any difference, though I was surprised there was quite a swing with what others have found

As there's no graduations after 0, assuming I have to go lower than 0 for my light roasts unless I add my own markers it just makes it a bit more hit & miss getting the right grind setting


----------



## PartySausage

DavecUK said:


> @PartySausage my zero point was at 0 until I installed the TiN burrs. I'm sure that I said in one of my videos unless it ended up on the cutting room floor the TiN burrs must have been each 90 micron thicker.
> 
> I had no problems at all with light roasts?
> 
> P.S. the marker disk is stuck on so it doesn't surprise me the 9 points differ.


 Ahh a few microns of titanium that explains a lot. It did cross my mind after I'd posted that it might be the TiN burrs. Too late was the cry

Maybe I'm used to the workflow on the Niche with the light roasts & have to tweak things for the Solo. I noticed that you'd taken to giving the grinds a stir on the Solo, which I don't remember you doing on your Niche videos. Did you find it makes much difference?


----------



## AliG

PartySausage said:


> I noticed that you'd taken to giving the grinds a stir on the Solo, which I don't remember you doing on your Niche videos. Did you find it makes much difference?


 I just skimmed the review (will give it a proper read later) but pretty sure Dave says that stirring made a noticeable difference


----------



## AnthonyTD

PartySausage said:


> I may be incorrect but don't believe there's any easy way to change the touching point without padding the burrs with additional shims. Functionally I doubt it makes any difference, though I was surprised there was quite a swing with what others have found
> As there's no graduations after 0, assuming I have to go lower than 0 for my light roasts unless I add my own markers it just makes it a bit more hit & miss getting the right grind setting


One way that comes to mind would be to create a large circular shim to shim the engagement of the adjustment ring with the upper burr carrier.

You could calculate the thickness from the amount of degrees you need to move. The thread is 1.25mm if I recall so you move the point by one degree for each 0.00347mm of thickness you add (1.25/360).

I guess you could 3D print one out of plastic to just too thick and then adjust by sanding it thinner.

But then again it's effort for no real reward (unless you are very OCD)


----------



## DavecUK

@AnthonyTD or unstick the ring with a spudger move it and glue it back with some super glue dots. 🤣


----------



## AnthonyTD

DavecUK said:


> @AnthonyTD or unstick the ring with a spudger move it and glue it back with some super glue dots.


Yeah could do that too.
But as I said only if it is really bothering you hey 

Could also draw up a separate "needle" mark and not use the bean logo too


----------



## dutchy101

So fortunately for me my burrs seem to touch at 0 on the dial so looking forward to having another go in the morning. Got it sitting at point 14 which is hopefully the right spot or thereabouts for my cappuccino


----------



## DavecUK

AnthonyTD said:


> Could also draw up a separate "needle" mark and not use the bean logo too


 Even simpler...👍


----------



## AnthonyTD

DavecUK said:


> Even simpler...


Maybe that's why they made it that bean logo so subtle hey.


----------



## DavecUK

AnthonyTD said:


> DavecUK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Even simpler...
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe that's why they made it that bean logo so subtle hey.
Click to expand...

 Could be, but they failed because it was the first thing I chalk penned white.


----------



## PartySausage

So many options....🤯. Thanks all... I think


----------



## Kettlebaked

Would using RDT on itamill burrs cause any issues? I was going to purchase SSP burrs to protect from the water but if they are the same quality I may save my money.


----------



## MWJB

Kettlebaked said:


> Would using RDT on itamill burrs cause any issues? I was going to purchase SSP burrs to protect from the water but if they are the same quality I may save my money.


 I can't say whether Italmill & SSP burrs are equivalent (what is the quality parameter you need?), but SSP burrs didn't exist for years after RDT was well established as a thing to do.

But given the DF64 dose consistency, why would you use RDT anyway if you had concerns?


----------



## Kettlebaked

MWJB said:


> I can't say whether Italmill & SSP burrs are equivalent (what is the quality parameter you need?), but SSP burrs didn't exist for years after RDT was well established as a thing to do.
> 
> But given the DF64 dose consistency, why would you use RDT anyway if you had concerns?


 I've always RDT'd and its sort of become a habit. Are SSP High Uniformity the same burr set that Dave used? I'm looking to buy the SSP HU burrs that go into the lagom 64


----------



## MWJB

Kettlebaked said:


> I've always RDT'd and its sort of become a habit. Are SSP High Uniformity the same burr set that Dave used? I'm looking to buy the SSP HU burrs that go into the lagom 64


 I don't know, nor does anyone outside SSP whose evaluation is limited & not public. Dave stated in his review that the burrs were Italmill, why didn't you read the review?

If you have always RTD'd, carry on.

Buy the burrs you want.


----------



## Kettlebaked

MWJB said:


> I don't know, nor does anyone outside SSP whose evaluation is limited & not public. Dave stated in his review that the burrs were Italmill, why didn't you read the review?
> 
> If you have always RTD'd, carry on.
> 
> Buy the burrs you want.


 I did read the review, in the review he mentioned he got a TiN burr set but I wasn't sure if he was speaking of the SSP burr set or another burr set that I wasn't aware of. Cheers thanks for the advice, I think I'll go with the SSP burrs


----------



## lake_m

Ceado recommend RDT with the E37SD and provide TiN coated burrs for that purpose (which cost a fortune if you wanted to buy separately!!). Must be something to do with corrosion v's standard non coated burrs.


----------



## ajohn

PartySausage said:


> Maybe the Solo isn't really suitable for light roasts at low doses especially when using IMS baskets, which require a finer grind.


 I've had the same problem with moderately dark roast that probably has a tiny bit of oil in it but not much. 15g dose and pretty fine grinding. Mine wouldn't clear with puffs. No chance at all. I'm gauging the grind visually. My usual bean needs 0 to 10 on Niche. Not that fine but getting there.

I mentioned earlier that I wouldn't be putting my usual monsooned through it based on this flap arrangement. When ready for use it literally glistens with oil and beans will stick to the can. The oil alters grinding rates when it gets on burrs so bean changes mean it takes several shot to settle down to a different bean and again when I go back to monsooned. It causes some grinders a lot of trouble but not Niche. It will also cope if used early but the grinds can becomes a bit of a pain then.

So ok like you I thought try flat which actually I have done before but not on light roast and also have a grinder for beans I want to try. So like you if not suitable it may have to go back. I have 500g of light roast to try but just arrived.

I mentions changes to noise when puffed to Dave. I think some of that is down to the burrs being rather clear and they start pumping air. I've noticed this on a M Mini weighing in but the sound is a bit different. LOL I also had a disgusting noise once - it stopped when I touched the base. Vibrating for some reason - resonance. LOL as people need to read up on the catastrophe theory. It could just be down to what the grinder is standing on and a pretty rigid thin base.


----------



## ajohn

lake_m said:


> Ceado recommend RDT with the E37SD and provide TiN coated burrs for that purpose (which cost a fortune if you wanted to buy separately!!). Must be something to do with corrosion v's standard non coated burrs.


 I've read some where that Italmil use stainless so tried a magnet. I do have some burrs that are definitely stainless. It's not easy to tell that way.

Hoffman demo's watering beans. Dip 25mm of a tea spoon handle into a cup of water vertically, pull it out and use it to stir the beans. Too much will cause way more trouble than not using it,


----------



## PartySausage

Thanks @ajohn for posting your observations & experiences. It's nice hearing that someone else is on a similar flats journey as myself.

Only having the grinder a few days I think it's worth me giving it a good chance to prove itself before I consider my options. Although very (sometimes too) enthusiastic, I'm still a relative amateur in the world of espresso & have much learning still to do. So it's quite possible that I'm doing/not doing something that is skewing things.

I love the single dosing element of both the Solo & Niche as like to vary my espresso flavours throughout the day & usually have three or more roasts in rotation at any one time

I have also had a strange vibration/resonance sort of noise, though my unit is on some soft placemats. It is possible that the base of the grinder was touching something adjacent, which may have contributed so I'll check if it happens in the future.

After my posts yesterday relating to the burr touching position being off-scale, this little tinker did some tinkering this morning and aligned the burrs again, this time added some extra shims under the contact points beneath the upper burr so that the touching point is just now below the 0; so at least when I come to grind my fine roasts I'll have something numerical to refer back to.

I'll have a play over the next couple of days & feed back how I got on


----------



## dutchy101

So had a much better day today with the Solo. First shot was probably a little too course and I forgot to WDT so there was a fair bit of chanelling. 2nd shot, I tightened the grind and did give a WDT and it was really good. Considering the burrs have had only 5 runs with beans in them, I'm really impressed thus far.


----------



## HaggisMoose

After checking the manual, it mentions to move to the biting point then move it back 10. If I do that then 0 is at the marker.

I somehow feel the biting point was nearer 0 initially so some change might have occurred when I took off the ring to have a look in the machine and screwed it back on. Could be wrong on that though.


----------



## dutchy101

If I recall correctly, @DavecUK mentions in one of his videos that the espresso range is between 12 and 16 based on a biting point at 0 - I'm using this as a guide whilst I find my feet.

@DavecUK Did you season the burs before using for making your drinking espresso or just crack on from the off?


----------



## DavecUK

It's important to make the point that the Solo I tested wasn't new and I've been using it for over 2 months. You do need to give it a little time...get used to it.


----------



## DavecUK

@dutchy101 with the TiN burrs I fitted, I put 500g thru then just used it. It's probably still improving a little as I didn't fit them that long ago.

Otherwise see above.


----------



## dutchy101

Great stuff - thanks @DavecUK I might go and get some cheap beans just to run through it to speed up the process.

Very happy with what I've had already today especially considering its brand new and I'm still finding my feet with it. Great review btw - after a shaky start with it yesterday it gave me a lot of confidence that it was the right move for me.


----------



## DavecUK

For the money as a 64mm flat burr single doser, it's hard to beat price Vs performance. I have no trouble making great shots with it.

I intend to do some direct comparison shots with it and the Niche next week (whilst I still have it). Just for own curiosity....


----------



## naturalganja

Seasoned my italmill with about 2 pounds (will do more later but just wanted to try it!) before to dive into it with a delicious Columbian red and yellow caturra carbonic maceration. Very impressed already, so sweet, fruity and balanced. Thank you all for recommendations on grind settings, helped me dial in pretty quickly. My touching point is slightly before zero and I ended up settling at 11. I experience the same as many where once it's done grinding, i give it a few puffers with the bellow and after 3-4, a large amount of grind comes out and then nothing. Distribution is great but definitely benefit from shaking the grind container as well as WDT in the pf, which I do anyway no matter what grinder I use.

I have a lot to do before to be able to to share definite thoughts (I'll look into alignment this weekend etc...) but so far very very very happy with my purchase.


----------



## dutchy101

Next stupid question. When seasoning burrs, should I be changing the grind size settings, or does this matter?


----------



## ajohn

Most people season coarsely first as far as I am aware and then visit espresso range increasingly. I started at 17 on this one but my touching point is at ~-10.

Be warned - it holds something like 250g of the bean I was using which are on the light side needed a 1/2L plus ice cream container to hold the grinds.

Grinding coarse reduces the strain on the motor. I left at least 1/2 hr between each dose.

Then I tried tuning a bean and the grinder choked so stripped it and cleaned it and removed one of the 2 pieces of silicone rubber. Now it will grind at the setting I used. The reason I did this is I have handled sheets of silicone rubber before and it sticks together remarkably well. It's perfectly possible that some one intended to pick up and fit one and fitted 2 by mistake. I actually only noticed there were 2 by accident and they didn't come apart that easily.

Should there be 1 or 2 - pass.


----------



## PartySausage

ajohn said:


> Should there be 1 or 2 - pass.


 Mine also has 2 layers so I'm guessing it's intentional


----------



## ajohn

PartySausage said:


> Mine also has 2 layers so I'm guessing it's intentional


 Sounds like it could be then. Leaves me with a problem though works with one and wouldn't with 2. Same beans same dose. Retention with 1 was initially 1g and very very little after that. Looking where it finished up most was a rim around the exit from the grinds chamber and the rest on a sort of pip on the part of the spout that directs the grinds down. Being anal and measuring it that accounted for 0.7g. The rest will be a ring around the grind chamber by the O ring.

Some one on another forum took them out completely and put them back again. Probably due to the g force a rad of say 34mm at 1200 rpm generates. Personally I think that puts sloping into perspective. The puff needs to open the flaps.

I was a little dismayed by the things that had to be done to dismantle when a simple mod would make it very very easy.


----------



## PartySausage

ajohn said:


> Sounds like it could be then. Leaves me with a problem though works with one and wouldn't with 2. Same beans same dose. Retention with 1 was initially 1g and very very little after that. Looking where it finished up most was a rim around the exit from the grinds chamber and the rest on a sort of pip on the part of the spout that directs the grinds down. Being anal and measuring it that accounted for 0.7g. The rest will be a ring around the grind chamber by the O ring.
> 
> Some one on another forum took them out completely and put them back again. Probably due to the g force a rad of say 34mm at 1200 rpm generates. Personally I think that puts sloping into perspective. The puff needs to open the flaps.
> 
> I was a little dismayed by the things that had to be done to dismantle when a simple mod would make it very very easy.


 My light roast espresso's today were a little more successful though still getting the big slug of grinds at the end when pumping the bellows, which also contains plenty of fines. I'm grinding direct into the portafilter so as mentioned in Dave's review, stirring seems to be a good idea

Out of interest should I consider removing of the baffles in the future, how & is it easy is it to actually remove them?


----------



## DavecUK

@PartySausage Just use it for 3 weeks first....


----------



## PartySausage

DavecUK said:


> @PartySausage Just use it for 3 weeks first....


 I think that's the plan Dave. I've no intention of modifying things like that in the short term, especially as the grinder is under warranty & I wouldn't want to risk invalidating anything there by peeing about


----------



## ajohn

PartySausage said:


> Out of interest should I consider removing of the baffles in the future, how & is it easy is it to actually remove them?


  Ask in 3 weeks.

LOL Being fairer I'll take some photo's to show how to arrange things so nothing gets damaged.


----------



## PartySausage

ajohn said:


> Ask in 3 weeks.
> 
> LOL Being fairer I'll take some photo's to show how to arrange things so nothing gets damaged.


 Hee Hee. Thanks @ajohn I took a look at the American forum & spotted the post I think you were referring to. It sounds like it involves quite a bit of disassembly


----------



## ajohn

The unfortunate aspect is that the push button retains a part that needs to come off and can't easily be disconnected. That means bits have to dangle and the base has to be removed.

On a bright point in this area mine as it is now so far looks better than a Monolith I have seen in videos that has a very easily detachable spout. So far anyway. It may have been down to how the Monolith was being used.

Also as far as burr alignment goes a sows ear can be made into a silk purse by shimming them.


----------



## lake_m

"Also as far as burr alignment goes a sows ear can be made into a silk purse by shimming them."

No shame in shimming. They do it with EK43's all the time. I shimmed my E37s. Get shimming I say!


----------



## PartySausage

ajohn said:


> The unfortunate aspect is that the push button retains a part that needs to come off and can't easily be disconnected. That means bits have to dangle and the base has to be removed.
> 
> On a bright point in this area mine as it is now so far looks better than a Monolith I have seen in videos that has a very easily detachable spout. So far anyway. It may have been down to how the Monolith was being used.
> 
> Also as far as burr alignment goes a sows ear can be made into a silk purse by shimming them.


 Sounds like a few potential pitfalls if you get it wrong.

I'm not sure I understand your monolith comparison. Are you saying you've removed the spout altogether & are using the grinder without it?


----------



## ajohn

Not sure what had been done but there was a bit of a mess behind the spout which is held in place magnetically.

Mine now has a neat rim around the exit from the grinds chamber which is also very thin rather than the long pathway out many grinders have. This is probably the main gain from leaning as it leaves room for a portafilter - a poor point on Niche really.

It deflects grinds the same sort of way that Ceado sometimes do. A flat plate that deflects grinds down but in this case it's part of the spout. Grinds can build up on it. If a problem a stiffish brush is needed that can be pushed up the spout - same as Niche really and the one they supply wont fit. I've yet to find something suitable so just prod around with a cocktail stick - nothing to harm on Niche and the silicone rubber would be harder to get at this way.

It can be difficult to clean the plate on some Ceado's but believe they have updated the arrangement.

On Niche it's best left there for constant very low retention. If it building up it produces some up to ~0.2g fliers that might go either way. Some beans might not do this. Mine do.

Two other points on this one - what happens if a new switch is needed - it's an unusual one and do the silicone flaps ever need replacing.

This is what I found twice before I delved further









I thought something must be up the spout.


----------



## ajohn

In bits down to the actual spout









The 2 screws behind the portafiter fork can be seen and also the button retaining nut pushed back along the wires. The nut is flat but against a curved surface  but can be gripped. When put back make sure it's orientated correctly. There is nothing in the body to do that so can be rotated any old way. When putting the base back on it's a good idea to use a torch to make sure the screw holes are directly under the holes in the base otherwise might tighten at an angle which means they will loosen at some point. The parts can be dangled so no finished surfaces are rubbing or use some kitchen towel if needed. It's easy enough really and I "suppose it's ok" to leave old grinds tucked away in a grinder for ever.

I have noticed a bit of a problem with mine that explains a ticking noise I've heard at times. I had noticed a more or less round patch of ground part way up the wall of the grinds chamber. It hasn't moved. Turns out to be a bit of a hole with a tiny amount of metal sticking out - hence the ticking.


----------



## DavecUK

@ajohn


----------



## MHeath

Even more pleased with mine now, I've got used to it and it's so consistent, produces lovely fluffy grinds and moves from filter to espresso with ease!

brilliant for the money IMO


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> @ajohn
> 
> 
> View attachment 55666


 Just what is some one supposed to do if their grinder chokes up? I do know exactly what I will do if that problem ever crops up.


----------



## PartySausage

ajohn said:


> In bits down to the actual spout
> 
> 
> View attachment 55663
> 
> 
> The 2 screws behind the portafiter fork can be seen and also the button retaining nut pushed back along the wires. The nut is flat but against a curved surface  but can be gripped. When put back make sure it's orientated correctly. There is nothing in the body to do that so can be rotated any old way. When putting the base back on it's a good idea to use a torch to make sure the screw holes are directly under the holes in the base otherwise might tighten at an angle which means they will loosen at some point. The parts can be dangled so no finished surfaces are rubbing or use some kitchen towel if needed. It's easy enough really and I "suppose it's ok" to leave old grinds tucked away in a grinder for ever.
> 
> I have noticed a bit of a problem with mine that explains a ticking noise I've heard at times. I had noticed a more or less round patch of ground part way up the wall of the grinds chamber. It hasn't moved. Turns out to be a bit of a hole with a tiny amount of metal sticking out - hence the ticking.


 Wow! that's a a proper dismantling job. 😳 You're a brave man doing that with your new toy.

I think I'm slowly getting accustomed to working with mine & the grinder might be loosening up a bit as the bellows seem to be doing a better job of clearing chamber.

If it does start struggling again; after seeing this I don't think removing the baffles is something I would contemplate doing while still under warranty & I'd send it back for inspection


----------



## ajohn

On Dave's point I do have some concerns as emailed BB about this a couple of days ago. No reply at all. That is not a good indication.

I have had the same problem with another grinder - reply almost immediately. Cleaned out same again and returned for a refund. Different company.

I also had a bit of grief buying off Cafe Italia - language meant it took a week to sort out but was. Dismantling was involved with this as well. Also the manufacturer of the goods.


----------



## PartySausage

ajohn said:


> On Dave's point I do have some concerns as emailed BB about this a couple of days ago. No reply at all. That is not a good indication.
> 
> I have had the same problem with another grinder - reply almost immediately. Cleaned out same again and returned for a refund. Different company.
> 
> I also had a bit of grief buying off Cafe Italia - language meant it took a week to sort out but was. Dismantling was involved with this as well. Also the manufacturer of the goods.


 Sorry to hear you've not had a good experience with BB. I've never had any reason to question their service & always found them to be an exemplary company to deal with. Maybe they're still reviewing what you sent them

FWIW I've just brewed a light roasted fruity decaf from the solo (Setting No. 11) 18g in 3 bellows pumps at the end cleared the baffles 17.9g out = 36g brewed in 28s & it was singing all the way across the taste buds. It appears and old dog can be taught some new tricks. I hope it wasn't a one-off

As far as variance in extraction from grind setting changes, with my 3 lots of beans I'm finding 1 notch either way can be +/- 10s so unless it's a mile out, it is a case of nudging the setting rather than making drastic changes.


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## dutchy101

@ajohn I'm waiting on a response to an email I sent them on Tuesday about the warantee card they sent me with my grinder. Probably a case of very busy as opposed to avoiding your message


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## ajohn

I sent another photo as well, before I did anything to it. Not that bothered but strange


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## AnthonyTD

@ajohn I think the chances of the switch requiring replacement are very small.

The switch is non latching so it would be mechanically very simple. Also it is not switching the motor current or for that matter the 240V so contacts are going to last literally forever.

The light on it may go but that would only affect aesthetics.


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## Aidy

dutchy101 said:


> @ajohn I'm waiting on a response to an email I sent them on Tuesday about the warantee card they sent me with my grinder. Probably a case of very busy as opposed to avoiding your message


 I sent them a message about three weeks ago with an enquiry about this grinder, still no response. I'm not sure they do that well with emails.


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## Alfieboy

My experiences with BB have never been an issue

Questions answered even at the weekend and even via the chat

My last interaction was I made an enquiry at 14.50 on 17th March and they replied at 15.00

I ordered at 15.07

My Solo was delivered at 15.00 on 18th March, the day most pre-orders were fulfilled so they would have been busy


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## ajohn

Really the sensible thing to do when some one has the experience I have had with this item is to just send it back. The problem though is I bought it because I want it and also want to keep it. Legally I have 2 weeks to make my mind up. Anything past that is at the discretion of the retailer. Other than one aspect - fit for use and sorting that one out can be rather time consuming and even costly if there is any argument about it.

Pass on the switch but I just wondered about spares. It is not a simple momentary push switch. It doesn't seem to latch but contacts in it flick into position when it's activated. Really I was wondering about all spares including the relay/timer board from having a bit if a bee in my bonnet about 2 "home grinders" with no parts diagrams but am not concerned about replacing parts like that which can wear myself.

Over all opinion - ok but a bit rough at the edges so that just leaves clogging up. Grinders in my view do need thorough cleaning at some point and it's a bit sad what has to be done with this one. Internals due to my profession I would say silly billys on a couple of points but there isn't anything wrong with what they have done and they probably do have their reasons. Cost wise as Dave says comparatively good value  that doesn't mean it couldn't be cheaper. That's life and makers do need to make more profit than the used to in the UK long ago now.


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## MediumRoastSteam

I had communicated with them recently about something else, last week or the previous, can't remember. I was forewarned they would be very busy with deliveries & dispatches in the coming weeks.


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## ajohn

I aught to add one more thing about removing one of the rubber flaps. I noticed as one of my spout fixing holes - the hidden plastic one is drilled right through so the screw stuck out slightly after the rubber was removed.

Adding another 4mm washer to the screw is likely to be a good idea to make up for the lost thickness being fixed. I got away with it on the other one. People might not be so lucky.

Sorry posting the other photo reminded me.


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## ajohn

Anyway I'll use it in anger later today. Columbia Villamaria Natural, light roast. Maybe compare with Niche but would prefer to use up my current out of the fridge monsooned first really. If there is any difference I'd be likely to tune differently. Same with SSP burrs which might go in next week.


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## emdr888

doesn't keeping beans in the fridge make them more oily and when grinding fine, lead to clumping and possible choking of the grinder?


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## ajohn

emdr888 said:


> doesn't keeping beans in the fridge make them more oily and when grinding fine, lead to clumping and possible choking of the grinder?


 I only fridge monsooned. When it arrives there may be a few drops of oil on some beans. Over 3 to 5 days they all oil up and are coated with it. Some go in the fridge as it helps stop them ageing further. This way the grinder setting stays more stable. They have so much oil on them they can stick to the side of a can and the cans need washing after use. I order 3 lots of 240g and each go in a separate can. 2 go in the fridge as soon as they are ready.


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## profesor_historia

emdr888 said:


> doesn't keeping beans in the fridge make them more oily and when grinding fine, lead to clumping and possible choking of the grinder?


No, on contrary.


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## ajohn

Columbia Villamaria Natural in a light roast. First guess at grinder setting was what clogged on the running in beans. Came out at 1 to 3. Lychee yes, orange ? and white sugar ?????? Some lasting "bitterness" that might well be the orange.

Only thing is that I am pressure profiling after a fashion using the SDB's infusion settings. On my monsooned that tends to blend in the tastes more and be less responsive to ratio.

From clean the retention was 0.2g. I'd expect lower than the other bean from a light roast. The other is medium dark.

I have to nudge the Niche as use fixed 30sec shots all of the time and check weigh the shot unless I am messing around with prep. This one may be more like a Mazzer - tiny adjustments - might even be a feature of flats. One problem can be play in the ears on the burr carrier. Make an adjustment one way and grinding forces push it in the opposite direction. I can honestly say I have never noticed that on Niche but prep is a touch more difficult due to the can


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## ajohn

PartySausage said:


> As far as variance in extraction from grind setting changes, with my 3 lots of beans I'm finding 1 notch either way can be +/- 10s so unless it's a mile out, it is a case of nudging the setting rather than making drastic changes.


 Yes. I'd got used to Niche. ~2.5 divisions has taken 1 to 3 down to 1 to 1. 2 1/2 on Niche would probably be too much but this surprised me. 1 to 1 is a bit zingy but not like sucking lemons.

The orange by the way was like those and more especially tangerines when they have past their best.


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## dutchy101

So day 2 and really starting to like this grinder. As others have mentioned I have also noticed that when purging through the bellows it feels like it builds up to a point and then a load pushes through. Not sure that this is a problem or an issue for me. If it clears the grinds out then it's doing what it's supposed to do irrespective of whether it comes out in dribbs or drabbs or as a big dump.

Still haven't got around to buying any cheap beans to run through and season the burrs but the grinds are so fluffy. Personally I'm finding it hard to find fault with this grinder.


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## ajohn

I think it's going to remind me of tuning a bean on a Mazzer Mini. Having used Niche for ~2 years I'd forgotten. Tiny adjustments.

I'd agree compared with a Mazzer Mini grinds are fluffy when running in. Hard to compare though as I did that with the hopper on. When the hopper is on fresh grinds are forcing earlier ones out, the grinds chamber is full so clumping is far more likely. That also relates to a coarser grind setting being needed for the same flow rates compared with weighing in. Some will only use flat with hopper on due to that. Perhaps opinions have changed now.


----------



## naturalganja

Been playing with it with it for a few days and am very happy with my purchase, I think the price is great and the value is hard to beat.

The grind is fluffy, retention is low, I'd say about 1.5g (definitely some areas that could be improved), and after a couple of 18g, consistency is down to about 0.10-0.20. Exchange seems low enough not to worry about purging, a small adjustment is reflected immediately and the shots I have pulled so far have been great, balanced and sweet. I think I might do what @AnthonyTD did with aluminum to reduce the spacing between the inner part of the top burr and the inner part of the carrier as I noticed after removing the top burr that a lot of grounds find their way in this huge empty space.

I also noticed grounds tend to clog half of the exit chute entry, just before the anti-clumping plate, probably the effect of the bellow. It creates this damn at the plate that suddenly gives up at the weakest point, leaving a lot behind. I'm not too sure of the best way to address this. @ajohn I think you have modified yours but I'm sorry I didn't understand how. Beside these 2 areas, the remaining of the trapped grounds seem to be where you would expect.


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## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> Been playing with it with it for a few days and am very happy with my purchase, I think the price is great and the value is hard to beat.
> The grind is fluffy, retention is low, I'd say about 1.5g (definitely some areas that could be improved), and after a couple of 18g, consistency is down to about 0.10-0.20. Exchange seems low enough not to worry about purging, a small adjustment is reflected immediately and the shots I have pulled so far have been great, balanced and sweet. I think I might do what @AnthonyTD did with aluminum to reduce the spacing between the inner part of the top burr and the inner part of the carrier as I noticed after removing the top burr that a lot of grounds find their way in this huge empty space.
> I also noticed grounds tend to clog half of the exit chute entry, just before the anti-clumping plate, probably the effect of the bellow. It creates this damn at the plate that suddenly gives up at the weakest point, leaving a lot behind. I'm not too sure of the best way to address this. @ajohn I think you have modified yours but I'm sorry I didn't understand how. Beside these 2 areas, the remaining of the trapped grounds seem to be where you would expect.
> 
> <img alt="166236190_746074399414235_567458789015213279_n.thumb.jpg.17482b2fe5d37c188aaddc74e7a696bd.jpg" data-fileid="55779" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_03/166236190_746074399414235_567458789015213279_n.thumb.jpg.17482b2fe5d37c188aaddc74e7a696bd.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="165879345_463862784957203_6655564208036928289_n.thumb.jpg.2c4f695504f0795d392ba790de5c4049.jpg" data-fileid="55780" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_03/165879345_463862784957203_6655564208036928289_n.thumb.jpg.2c4f695504f0795d392ba790de5c4049.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="165982526_370361824029158_4928739479170240251_n.thumb.jpg.1d0a0a45b49ead2952966b809584409f.jpg" data-fileid="55781" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_03/165982526_370361824029158_4928739479170240251_n.thumb.jpg.1d0a0a45b49ead2952966b809584409f.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Just to clarify I did not fill the gap but rather used aluminium tap to seal where the burr joins the carrier.

You could I guess fill the cavity with silicone or epoxy (more permanent).

Silicones will work well as it is compressible so will not change the burr alignment and if needed the silicon can just be peeled away .


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## naturalganja

AnthonyTD said:


> Just to clarify I did not fill the gap but rather used aluminium tap to seal where the burr joins the carrier.
> 
> You could I guess fill the cavity with silicone or epoxy (more permanent).
> 
> Silicones will work well as it is compressible so will not change the burr alignment and if needed the silicon can just be peeled away .


 Yes this is what I meant, sorry if I didn't explain properly!


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## ajohn

There is a plastic spout screw fixed in place over the exit from the grinds chamber. The spout holds 2 of these in place one on top of the other.









The V with the additional split is at the bottom when the grinder is the right way up. Silicone rubber ~1mm thick. I've removed one but also added an additional 4mm washer to the fixing screws. One of the holes was drilled all of the way through the aluminium on mine right into the grinds chamber and without the additional washer the screw sticks out. There wont be much thickness of metal left at the end of the one that wasn't drilled all through so not using the washer is likely to cause problems. Mine are ~0.8mm thick. The puff is expected to bend those flaps and clear the bits. Currently on mine now it's hardly getting any extra out,

I think @DavecUK is assuming that the ones that are in as it arrives with relax and take a bit of a set with use. I'm not so sure. I think my grinder choked due to using a darker roast that *may* have a small amount of oil in it. Other people's numbers suggest I am not grinding at a terribly fine setting.

I asked Dave about the spout a little while ago. I'm interested in making my own and one difficult question is the aperture size from the grind chamber. Makers have different approaches. Niche for instance uses 2 small ones. Mazzer weighed in use a rather large one. One Ceado hopper on use a small hole. might be ok for weighing out too. This one uses a moderate size and the flaps. Dave's looks like this now









He wouldn't be able to get a better photo without dismantling or using a snake camera. The reflective surface is shiny black plastic.


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## naturalganja

I see... And I feel stupid but I can't figure out how to get to these plates, probably a screw I'm not seeing. It also seems like in my case anyway, the grounds are stuck to the right of the exit when looking at it from inside, which makes sense since the sweeping arms are rotating clockwise, the grounds accumulate on the the only surface they are hitting


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## ajohn

The photo's I posted earlier are clear enough. 2 screw under the portafilter fork and the push button as well which means the base has to come off.

Looks like they have drilled the plastic spout fixing screws right through into the grind chamber on yours - those 2 roundish patches of grinds each side of the exit. Doesn't matter really.

When I started using Niche I found it easier to adjust to tune a bean. Others did as well. Never thought much about why. The adjusting thread on it looked similar to other grinders. This one is a bit touchy as have been other flats I have used or played with. The reason seems to be that the design of a conical burr has a sort of adjustment range built in at the bottom of the centre burr so adjustment thread pitch doesn't directly relate to grinder setting as it does on flats.

I'm still tuning a bean so don't fancy taking it apart to see where grinds are collecting now as it will be tricky to set it back accurately again. Seem to have lost ~0.5g in it and it's holding doses to ~0.2g but it's only done 6 shots from clean.

They have that huge gap behind the upper burr due to shrinkage when the castings cool. It can cause problems as the thicker sections draw from thinner ones as it sets but also and maybe more important in this case take a lot longer to solidify and cool. More material too.


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## naturalganja

Thanks @ajohn for the clarification, I'm not sure if I want to try anything regarding the plates, I honestly don't have enough confidence in my DIY skills to be 100% I can put it back all together! I might just try to figure something out later regarding the blockage at the plate.

On a separate note, I contacted the manufacturer and am waiting to hear back as I believe there is an issue with my grinder. It seems like the motor shaft was not drilled and tapped quite on centre, or am I missing something (see video).

Also, when going to the burr touching point, there is not a constant rubbing sound, it does sound like an area is higher and therefore making contact when the rest of the burr isn't, I made a video but couldn't get it to fit in this post so posting right after. When doing the marker on the bottom burr, I have never seen such a result where 2 areas opposed from each other are making contact (see pic).

A friend of mine has the grinder and his doesn't look like this at all, it looks as you would expect it to be, no off centred bolt

/monthly_2021_03/Offcentred.mp4.0307360b99ffb21047f8beeec42dee9c.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment Offcentred.mp4


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## naturalganja

This is the video highlighting the burr touching point discrepancy

View attachment video-1617047650.mp4


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## ajohn

That doesn't look too good.

I'm finding it can need a good whack to clear it. Grinds are building up inside. Think I can guess where. I've been using a light roast which shouldn't really cause any problems but consistency isn't great.


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## naturalganja

ajohn said:


> That doesn't look too good.
> 
> I'm finding it can need a good whack to clear it. Grinds are building up inside. Think I can guess where. I've been using a light roast which shouldn't really cause any problems but consistency isn't great.


 I hear ya. I measured all grounds trapped inside (clog at the plate, around the o-ring, around the burr, behind the top burr, etc...) and that adds up to about 0.9g. So not bad at all for a flat! And without getting into it, Dave exchange estimation definitely seems accurate.

I have only tried 2 different coffees so far (and also went through 2 lbs of some bad beans I roasted to start seasoning the burrs ), a washed Ethiopian and a carbonic maceration Columbian, always using my manual lever (Flair Pro) for spros and I find that I have to stick to a much faster extraction compared to my conical or it comes out muddy, so I'm getting too much fines and I definitely think that this is because of the alignment. I still managed to get some nice shots but it's just not where I want it to be and I know, after reading Dave review, talking to other owners and also seeing some videos, that it's possible with this grinder. We'll see how the manufacturer responds.

This is a video from my friend, you can clearly see the difference with mine

/monthly_2021_03/video-1617044560.mp4.85f3255f4cb47cfcdadca1d3a18942cd.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment video-1617044560.mp4


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## MediumRoastSteam

@naturalganja - did you buy yours from Bella Barista in the UK? Might as well contact them if you did.


----------



## dutchy101

@naturalganja when I was trying to find the burrs touching point on my grinder last week it was doing the same thing as yours. I've never had a flat grinder before and wasn't sure if this was what was supposed to happen. Upon trying again last night after seeing your video this seems to have resolved itself after a week of use and the blades seem to close up tightly at the zero point.

In terms of the off centre bolt - mine is also similar. I think it looks worse when it's spinning than it actually is because the speed it spins at almost creates an optical illusion of a wobble effect.

How long have you had your grinder? If only just a few days it may rectify itself like mine did in terms if the burr alignment but the bolt not being completely central obviously won't. Not sure how much of a problem this is if the burrs are aligned


----------



## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> I hear ya. I measured all grounds trapped inside (clog at the plate, around the o-ring, around the burr, behind the top burr, etc...) and that adds up to about 0.9g. So not bad at all for a flat! And without getting into it, Dave exchange estimation definitely seems accurate.
> 
> I have only tried 2 different coffees so far (and also went through 2 lbs of some bad beans I roasted to start seasoning the burrs ), a washed Ethiopian and a carbonic maceration Columbian, always using my manual lever (Flair Pro) for spros and I find that I have to stick to a much faster extraction compared to my conical or it comes out muddy, so I'm getting too much fines and I definitely think that this is because of the alignment. I still managed to get some nice shots but it's just not where I want it to be and I know, after reading Dave review, talking to other owners and also seeing some videos, that it's possible with this grinder. We'll see how the manufacturer responds.
> 
> This is a video from my friend, you can clearly see the difference with min
> 
> View attachment 55912


 With regard to grinds getting into the gap before the O-ring and behind the top burr, I dont think these woudl contribute to exchange but more of a permanant retention (untill you clean them out). I think once the grinds are there they will fill that gap and just stay there.

About your bolt video. The burr carries is turning without any visible runout so it is just the bolt, bolts are not really built to be perfectly concentric with their threads (they should be mostly though). At worst I can only see that causing some vibrations (but unlikely as it is so close to the center of rotation and the RPM is not that high). You can always go buy a replacement stainless bolt from your local hardware store as this is a normal right hand thread bolt.


----------



## ajohn

naturalganja said:


> I definitely think that this is because of the alignment.


 In terms of the burrs being parallel it's not unusual to find errors that ideally should be shimmed out and some where it probably should be done. It's a subject that has cropped up before.

Other than burrs running in due to use grinders don't fix themselves. Running in usually alters the grind size distribution. For me that was pretty noticeable on Niche. It faded pretty quickly but as was mentioned at the time they will continue to improve for 10kg or so. Taste change is slow so people don't notice other than settings getting finer over time.

If I remember correctly Niche's burr fixing bolt is a bit off centre. That doesn't matter really and may have been done due to the key that stops the centre burr from rotating. I don't know how that is done on this one. It doesn't seem to be a left hand fixing bolt as they are usually marked. Some makers might not bother.

Adjustment isn't too bad due to the large dial but lack of a direct pointer probably wont go down well with people who use the same grinder with different methods. I only use espresso.

My concern really is choking. I'm not convinced I am shut of it. The missing grinds aren't much of a problem really. Probably behind the upper burr. Then consistency. Something isn't right in that direction and I have weighed in on flat before. Also tried directly into the portafilter - grinds pile is way too high. Niche isn't too bright used that way either.

Excess fines. Not really noticed that on beans I have and can use. A strong tasty dark roast would be suitable. My oily monsooned would be sure to choke it up so not much point in trying that. It leaves oil behind when it's ground.  That's why I want 2 grinders. I would have thought that a light roast would show up excess fines. It might explain why I am having trouble balancing acidity with it but that is an area where my comment on consistency comes but also on flow rates.


----------



## DavecUK

@naturalganja It looks like the thread tapped into the top of the shaft is slightly off-centre and so the bolt appears to wobble when it rotates. It's only a hold down for the burr carrier which slides down the shaft and looks central and fine from your video. *The bolt being off-centre affects nothing*.

the rub point is very slight, so with a clean grinder, find the first glide point that you can feel (note which mark on the dial it's on)...then move to the loose point and move the burrs backwards and forwards tightening down the adjuster until you feel the second rub. Note the mark you're at now. How many marks difference between them?

Then repeat the above for the other 2 different positions of the top burr carrier and choose the position with the smallest difference. Mark the carrier, so you don't forget.


----------



## naturalganja

DavecUK said:


> @naturalganja It looks like the thread tapped into the top of the shaft is slightly off-centre and so the bolt appears to wobble when it rotates. It's only a hold down for the burr carrier which slides down the shaft and looks central and fine from your video. *The bolt being off-centre affects nothing*.
> 
> the rub point is very slight, so with a clean grinder, find the first glide point that you can feel (note which mark on the dial it's on)...then move to the loose point and move the burrs backwards and forwards tightening down the adjuster until you feel the second rub. Note the mark you're at now. How many marks difference between them?
> 
> Then repeat the above for the other 2 different positions of the top burr carrier and choose the position with the smallest difference. Mark the carrier, so you don't forget.


 Thanks Dave, Anthony and John, as always you guys are super helpful, really appreciate it.

I have done a marker on each of the 3 directions of the top carrier and I definitely noticed a better result with one and I marked it that way, can't say if it came like this out of the box but doesn't matter really. I haven't thought of measuring which way had the smallest gap between the 2 touching point, that's a good idea indeed.

I also feel like I haven't seasoned enough cause the inconsistencies I was noticing seem to slowly fade away as I go through more coffee (I know i know, no surprise here, what can I say  ...)

Regarding shimming, I decided not to touch the bottom burr after chatting with Anthony, I just cleaned it and repositioned it carefully, tightened it and the marker test came out much better than the first time I did it after opening the grinder for the first time. On the top burr, I used 1 x folded aluminum shim under 2 out of the 3 available spots, the results isn't perfect but I doubt there is much better I can do because of the limited spots where shims can be placed, and my shots are coming out better already after this mod.

@AnthonyTD totally agree with you with retention vs exchange, I cannot imagine the ground behind the top burr, on the o-ring etc... would get exchanged. The clogging that builds up at the clumping plate doesn't seem to move so I think the vast majority of it is also not part of the exchange, which really doesn't leave much else. So definitely think Dave is spot on with his estimate, which is amazing for such a grinder at this price point.

@ajohn agreed with the Niche bolt being off centred, I have seen this on several units and it definitely didn't seem to affect anything as shots came out great, no uneven extraction notes I could taste. Excess of fines seem to reduce significantly as I season, today I don't have that impression at all and I have ran 10 x 18g doses so far. I am however trying to get J.Gagne app working on my mac and with my macro lens on my EOS I wanna do a particle analysis, we'll see! (So far the app keeps crashing haha)

Finally, I totally hear you for 2 grinders! I have the Comandante if I don't want to have to deal with that but after 2 years solely using it at home, the DF64 is quite the upgrade to my morning routine! I have also noticed that, when first going towards filter size after a few espresso grinds, the larger particles seem to be un-stucking some of the rentention, my guess is probably that clog at the plate, cause I ended up with more out than I put in. It also makes sense and I just have to keep that in mind. No matter waht, better clean inside before switching brewing methods.


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## DavecUK

@naturalganja In only very few cases of misalignment can shimming the moving burr help. Misalignment is either not correctable or requires the top burr shimming only (over 80% of the time).

To prevent coffee going into the area above the top burr (I took the burrs of again today), I am thinking that some universal adhesive (like Bostik) wiped into the gap, cleaned off the facing surface and then allowed to dry would prevent coffee going in. This would have to be done after the burr is fitted (for obvious reasons).

I need to correct something in my review, because the 3 touch points on the top burr, are the area behind the screws. You can see the witness marks left by the chalk pen.


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## naturalganja

@DavecUK I totally agree which is why I didn't shim the bottom burr. I just removed it and replaced it making sure it was centred and that the fasteners were snug. Marker test before and after showed an improvement, somehow.

I like your universal adhesive idea to close the gaps behind the top burrs, if you end up doing it I (and I'm sure many other people) would love to see your methodology! I have cleaned behind mine a few times already and I find a fair amount of ground in it each time. So in theory, I assume it would keep filling up until full, potentially increasing the exchange down the road? Maybe I'm overthinking it.

@AnthonyTD you made a mod to this with aluminum, how do you find it works in preventing ground from getting trapped behind the burr?

Regarding the touching points of the top burr, yes definitely behind the screws, that's where I placed the shims and could definitely see a significant difference in the marker test result. I actually didn't realize upon reading your review that you made a video about changing the burrs, not sure how I missed it, but great content, super helpful.


----------



## DavecUK

@naturalganja I think once the coffee is in behind the burrs it will never come out.....but it annoys me to know it's there. I don't know how long I will have this grinder for, so may pick up some universal clear glue tonight and have a go.


----------



## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> @AnthonyTD you made a mod to this with aluminum, how do you find it works in preventing ground from getting trapped behind the burr?
> 
> Regarding the touching points of the top burr, yes definitely behind the screws, that's where I placed the shims and could definitely see a significant difference in the marker test result. I actually didn't realize upon reading your review that you made a video about changing the burrs, not sure how I missed it, but great content, super helpful.


 So the mod I did was to cut some strips of aluminum tape and tape across the join where the burr meets the carrier. I assume it worked but I never removed the burr again to check. That said however I did notice that one piece of alimunim tape was starting to come off yesterday so I remove it all and have not put it back. I guess I did not clean the surfaces well enough before applying it. Perhaps I will try again some day.

@DavecUK I suggested earlier that perhaps that cavity under the top burr could be filled with silicon adhesive which has the advantage that it fills gaps well and also can be removed easily enough if wanted later. Only concern I think is that most silicon sealants are quite pungent for the first couple days and this may affect your coffee if it does make its way into it (probably quite unlikely though).

Other thoughts on semi permanent fillers are:

1. The expanding foam that is used for insulation in building (you can remove it by pouring acetone over it if needed).

2. Blu Tak - this might work pretty well to fill that cavity beforer applying the burrs.

3. Pack it with cotton wool.


----------



## DavecUK

@AnthonyTD I was just going to wipe some general purpose glue to fill the thin gap between burr and carrier...wiping off the excess.


----------



## naturalganja

@DavecUK I must be missing something, wouldn't this stick the burr to the carrier permanently?

@AnthonyTD I like both of you guys ideas, Dave is focusing more on closing that tiny gap in the centre between the carrier and the burr, and you are looking at filling the whole gap behind the burr (I would instinctively be worried about making the top carrier too heavy but looking at the materials you are suggesting, none seem heavy enough to affect the springs). Filling up the gap is also fairly easy to do/undo, maybe a good starting point!


----------



## naturalganja

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @naturalganja - did you buy yours from Bella Barista in the UK? Might as well contact them if you did.


 No I bought it with The Gluons. I was talking to David and also to the factory in China about my "issues". They are really good, responsive and immediately offered to replace the unit. That was before I realized I jumped the gun a little and there is probably nothing wrong with the grinder. My latest results with it seem to go along this finding. So all positive!


----------



## Chrisbriton

Anyone have a hands free step to grind straight into a bottomless portafilter?


----------



## Artie

AnthonyTD said:


> So the mod I did was to cut some strips of aluminum tape and tape across the join where the burr meets the carrier. I assume it worked but I never removed the burr again to check. That said however I did notice that one piece of alimunim tape was starting to come off yesterday so I remove it all and have not put it back. I guess I did not clean the surfaces well enough before applying it. Perhaps I will try again some day.
> 
> @DavecUK I suggested earlier that perhaps that cavity under the top burr could be filled with silicon adhesive which has the advantage that it fills gaps well and also can be removed easily enough if wanted later. Only concern I think is that most silicon sealants are quite pungent for the first couple days and this may affect your coffee if it does make its way into it (probably quite unlikely though).
> 
> Other thoughts on semi permanent fillers are:
> 
> 1. The expanding foam that is used for insulation in building (you can remove it by pouring acetone over it if needed).
> 
> 2. Blu Tak - this might work pretty well to fill that cavity beforer applying the burrs.
> 
> 3. Pack it with cotton wool.


 This stuff is pretty good at filling holes:

https://sugru.com/

It has the consistency of putty and then hardens to rubber after a few hours in contact with the air. I use it to make custom grommets for filling cable holes in bike frames, when converting them from cable to electronic gear shifting.

I don't own this grinder but was about to press buy 2 days ago on BB, then I saw this 49 page thread! Sounds like it has some issues. Should I wait?


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Artie said:


> Sounds like it has some issues. Should I wait?


 I don't think they are issues as such, some people like to tweak any machine to the max, and share them on forums, making you think that these changes are absolutely needed, but I believe this machine is perfectly capable on its own.

If you read @DavecUK's mini-review, I believe you can pretty much get a view of the stock grinder's capabilities, and make up your own mind


----------



## AnthonyTD

I second what C&C said. While a lot of my posts here are talking about tweaking it if you look for my first post it was around disassembling it and shoeing the internals. All in all a well made and solid grubber.
DaveC review details how well it works.

For the price in think it is a winner.


----------



## DavecUK

@CoffeeAndCigarettes I just don't like that space filling with coffee and some sort of cheap everyday adhesive can fill the gap, wipe off the face and won't stick the burr in permanently. I'm even thinking of using blue tak!

One of the things that might make it fill up fast as mine didn't have much in at all...is to puff *before* the coffee has stopped comoing out the spout...always wait and then one or two gentle puffs once it's stopped. If you do it before any frgments still backfiring from the breaker zone, can end up inside..

Right, off to push some blue tak in there.


----------



## DavecUK

@DavecUK aaand, blue tak didn't work.


----------



## naturalganja

DavecUK said:


> @DavecUK aaand, blue tak didn't work.


 hahaha at least we know! Did you try to just seal the little gap or you filled up the whole thing?



Artie said:


> I don't own this grinder but was about to press buy 2 days ago on BB, then I saw this 49 page thread! Sounds like it has some issues. Should I wait?


 Same as everyone else here, I wouldn't recommend you to wait, prices are going up and this is a great grinder. I was one of the one who thought there was an issue, until I realized there wasn't and what I thought was misaligned was actually just a visual trick that you can see on other grinders such as some Niches etc... All good over here and results are getting better and better as the burrs season


----------



## Artie

naturalganja said:


> All good over here and results are getting better and better as the burrs season


 Ok that's it. I've done it. I've pulled the trigger.

The next step in my quest for decent home espresso. This will be an upgrade from my old and reliable Sage Smart Grinder Pro 😊


----------



## DavecUK

@naturalganja Just tried to seal the little gap, but it wouldn't go in...


----------



## dutchy101

Artie said:


> Ok that's it. I've done it. I've pulled the trigger.
> 
> The next step in my quest for decent home espresso. This will be an upgrade from my old and reliable Sage Smart Grinder Pro 😊


 You won't regret it mate. I'm in exactly the same position. Upgraded from the SGP and have had the Solo a week. It's a noticeable improvement and I'm not even considering all the shimming mods etc. being referred to here. Works perfectly well for my needs and ability 😄


----------



## naturalganja

DavecUK said:


> @naturalganja Just tried to seal the little gap, but it wouldn't go in...


 Thanks for the feedback! It's ok we'll find a way!



Artie said:


> Ok that's it. I've done it. I've pulled the trigger.
> 
> The next step in my quest for decent home espresso. This will be an upgrade from my old and reliable Sage Smart Grinder Pro 😊


 Good on you! You won't regret it and will definitely enjoy the upgrade! Happy brewing!


----------



## Baffo

I don't post much anymore, but had to drop this here, JH bought it.


----------



## Bicky

Interesting, and a full review forthcoming in the next few months.

Also a bunch of espresso machines in the background, including a MaraX!


----------



## RobDGio

Bicky said:


> Interesting, and a full review forthcoming in the next few months.
> 
> Also a bunch of espresso machines in the background, including a MaraX!


 yes, the line up of machines behind is interesting, should be a good video coming soon


----------



## profesor_historia

RobDGio said:


> yes, the line up of machines behind is interesting, should be a good video coming soon


Our rabbit holes will be deeper and deeper....


----------



## luisenriquereyes

Is this the best option SSP burr to install on the G-Iota DF64?

https://prima-coffee.com/parts/ssp/ssp-e-ssp-sp

Looks like it is what Dave Corbey installed in his:


----------



## DavecUK

@luisenriquereyes mine were just Italmill TiN coated


----------



## thodoris5321

I hope that the price wont go to 500-600 Euro after James' possibly positive review, although i may have already buy it by then. I just wait for the coloured batch from homebarista.
I saw he showed a uniformal ssp for his wilfa, so hopefully he will compare a uniformal with the Italmills and not a HU ssp, in his review in the following months.


----------



## MWJB

thodoris5321 said:


> I saw he showed a uniformal ssp for his wilfa, so hopefully he will compare a uniformal with the Italmills and not a HU ssp, in his review in the following months.


 I think you mean unimodal (in drip grind region) rather than uniformal. He also said that it introduced problems for the Wilfa.


----------



## ajohn

Unimodal burrs have gone less unimodal and now reduced fines out of a more convention burr. I'd suggest people read around on the web from various people that have used them before they buy.


----------



## thodoris5321

MWJB said:


> I think you mean unimodal (in drip grind region) rather than uniformal. He also said that it introduced problems for the Wilfa.


 Oops, yeah i meant Unimodal.  He did say that, so i also wanna learn his opinion for the df64. Maybe it would need to be more steadily built than the Wilfa and with a better motor than the Ode to give a good result and last long? I don't know, i also haven't read any reviews about the grinder with the ssp burrs yet.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> Unimodal burrs have gone less unimodal and now reduced fines out of a more convention burr. I'd suggest people read around on the web from various people that have used them before they buy.


 They're either unimodal (at a specified setting) or they are not. I'd suggest that people observe a published plot at the grind setting range that they intend to have a unimodal grind at.


----------



## chris.gid

Just ordered one of these from BB in black to upgrade my SGP after seeing the mention of it in on the James Hoffman video. Been trying to get a Niche for ages so hoping this new upstart won't disappoint.


----------



## dutchy101

Exactly the same as me mate. You won't be disappointed.

I picked up a kilo of cheap beans from Aldi earlier this week and run those through at different settings to season the burrs. Gave it a clean out and put it all back together.

Now the touching point is about 10 past zero so I'm using the vertical line running up the left side of the chute as my grind setting bean now. First coffee of this morning was the best one I've had.


----------



## mooky

It has quite a few similarities with the Lagom P64 (aside from price)

Has anyone done a side-by-side comparison?


----------



## Dallah

Not that I am aware of. I have a Lagom P-64 coming in mid-May. Once we are able to mix again, I'd be happy to bring my Lagom to somewhere to have a head to head comparison.

I know that @DavecUKis trying to get his hands on a Lagom to put it through his testing. As he has a Solo he is the obvious person to perform this testing.

It would be a very interesting comparison given that both grinders can run the SSP High Uniformity and Unimodal burrs.

I know James Hoffman now has a Solo on his test bench and previously had a Lagom when he was testing "Titan" grade grinders. He gives away testing gear once through with them to his Patreon backers, hopefully he hasn't given away the Lagom yet and he could do a comparison.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

I finally got my grinder today, workflow is quite nice, the plastic dosing cup allows me to have a pretty flat bed very easily, and when dialled in, shots are significantly better than when I was using a pressurised basket.

I'm a bit worried of the limits in the settings for light roasts, though. Currently, with some medium roasts, I'm already between 0-5, and the burrs are touching at 4-5 past zero.

Does someone have similar settings and manages to pull decent light roasts shots? After the burrs are seasoned, will I have to grind at even finer setting, or the opposite?


----------



## Dallah

@CoffeeAndCigarettes Which burr set do you have in your Solo?


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Dallah said:


> @CoffeeAndCigarettes Which burr set do you have in your Solo?


 Standard steel Italmill burrs.

From what I read earlier, most people were around setting 10 for espresso range, so it seemed a bit strange that for me, I'm so close to zero.


----------



## DavecUK

@CoffeeAndCigarettes that's fine, you don't have to worry, you will choke your machine long before the burrs touch. Often on my Mazzer I would be within 7 marks of the burr touching point for some coffees.


----------



## zellleonhart

I managed to align the SSP Multipurpose burrs with the whiteboard marker test + foil shimming method.

Before I start, I followed DaveC's suggestion to find the best top burr spin location. I am quite surprised that 1 out of 3 locations have a distinctly different burr touch point compared to the another 2. It touches at around 28th mark while the other 2 are at 20th mark. It turned out that the first location (with 28th mark burr touch point) is the best alignment with the smallest deviance.

Next I use a sharpie to mark the burr and burr carrier's orientation so that I can put it back exactly the same, and to identify which direction to shim.

After that the process is the same as you would align any flat burr grinder - mark the bottom burr first, find out the location to be shimmed and apply shim. Repeat the process for the top burr. I am glad that I only needed very minimal shimming to achieve good alignment. Granted, this is my very first time aligning flat burrs, I am not sure if I did anything wrong and result in an inaccurate alignment, but at least it gives me some peace of mind.

Note that my finding is quite similar with others who have aligned the G-iota - the bottom burr only require 1 shim (mine is 0.01mm thickness) and the top burr required slightly more - about 3 x 0.01mm for me. I am happy with the result!

Below are the before and after alignment photos:


----------



## Dallah

@zellleonhart Aren't those the SSP Unimodal burrs? Are you using the grinder for espresso? How are you finding the espresso?


----------



## zellleonhart

Dallah said:


> @zellleonhart Aren't those the SSP Unimodal burrs? Are you using the grinder for espresso? How are you finding the espresso?


 No they are the Multipurpose burrs, which is the Lagom's version of the SSP Unimodal with addition flat surfaces (as you can see in the pics) to produce slightly more fines at espresso grind settings. Other than the flat surfaces, the geometry looks almost identical to the Unimodal.

Yes I am using for espresso only. I am not experienced enough to describe the nuances, but compared with my old eureka mignon MK2 - the shots are more flavourful and slightly sweeter. I usually drink with milk or as ice americano, rarely straight shots, so I can't tell very well. I enjoy using it much more due to the low retention and fluffier grinds!


----------



## Dallah

@zellleonhart I'm quite positive that while the burrs you have are multi-purpose, they are also the Unimodal (sometimes known as brew burrs) burrs.

This page on the Option O website explains the differences and has pictures of the two different SSP burr sets. https://www.option-o.com/faq-lagom-p64


----------



## zellleonhart

Dallah said:


> @zellleonhart I'm quite positive that while the burrs you have are multi-purpose, they are also the Unimodal (sometimes known as brew burrs) burrs.
> 
> This page on the Option O website explains the differences and has pictures of the two different SSP burr sets. https://www.option-o.com/faq-lagom-p64


 I have been following this multipurpose burrs' news for a while. You can read post #750 here:https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/lagom-p64-flat-option-o-t60117-740.html#p752643

Basically, Option-O specifically requested SSP to modify the Unimodal burrs (add more flat surfaces) so that it can also produce a bit more fines for espresso grinding. If mine is the normal Unimodal/brew burrs, it can't be aligned with the whiteboard marker method because there are no flat surfaces.

Post #1241 and #1244 (my photo) shows the modified flat surfaces. https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/lagom-p64-flat-option-o-t60117-1240.html


----------



## Dallah

@zellleonhart As you will see from this question & answer from the distributor of SSP burrs and Lagom grinders in the USA those "multipurpose" burrs are just another name for the Unimodal burrs.


----------



## zellleonhart

Dallah said:


> @zellleonhart As you will see from this question & answer from the distributor of SSP burrs and Lagom grinders in the USA those "multipurpose" burrs are just another name for the Unimodal burrs.


 In the first link I shared, those are exact words from Option-O who replied to a Lagom P64 buyer. Option-O even refunded the buyer because he received the Multipurpose (with flats) while expecting a Unimodal. If you didn't even click the link, I have nothing to say. I would trust Option-O's elaborated reply rather than a distributor's one-liner.

I've said what I said, whether you want to believe Prima-Coffee's reply (which I think is contradicting their description in that product page) or the links I shared, it's up to you. I posted all the links so that other reads can make their own judgement.


----------



## ajohn

The ones under discussion are referred to as espresso-unimodal. The pure unimodal are for brew and people have used them for espresso. Opinions vary on their effectiveness for that particular use.

As @MWJB mentioned intended to be "unimodal" at different grind size settings. It would be interesting to see the plots for both types but I've not managed to find any.

The main source of the high uniformity burrs has sold out of Mazzer 64mm size rather recently. The plot for these is is easy to find. These seem to be the popular option even with light roasts but maybe the espresso-unimodal will take over.


----------



## AnthonyTD

zellleonhart said:


> I managed to align the SSP Multipurpose burrs with the whiteboard marker test + foil shimming method.
> Before I start, I followed DaveC's suggestion to find the best top burr spin location. I am quite surprised that 1 out of 3 locations have a distinctly different burr touch point compared to the another 2. It touches at around 28th mark while the other 2 are at 20th mark. It turned out that the first location (with 28th mark burr touch point) is the best alignment with the smallest deviance.
> Next I use a sharpie to mark the burr and burr carrier's orientation so that I can put it back exactly the same, and to identify which direction to shim.
> After that the process is the same as you would align any flat burr grinder - mark the bottom burr first, find out the location to be shimmed and apply shim. Repeat the process for the top burr. I am glad that I only needed very minimal shimming to achieve good alignment. Granted, this is my very first time aligning flat burrs, I am not sure if I did anything wrong and result in an inaccurate alignment, but at least it gives me some peace of mind.
> Note that my finding is quite similar with others who have aligned the G-iota - the bottom burr only require 1 shim (mine is 0.01mm thickness) and the top burr required slightly more - about 3 x 0.01mm for me. I am happy with the result!
> Below are the before and after alignment photos:


I honestly don't understand the method of doing the bottom burr first like this.

You have taken a carrier that was probably machined to be running true to the motors axis and a burr which is quite likely parallel top to bottom and then added shims between them based on a test against a top burr that you have no idea whether it is aligned or not (actually you assume it is not as you later align it).

Doing this means you probably skewing the bottom burr out of the motors axis and then trying to make the top burr match (also then out of alignment with the motors axis)

In all honestly I would put my money on the carrier and bottom burr already being good enough and just aligning the top burr to them.

Or if you have the tools run a dial test indicator on the bottom burr, get it running true and then use the marker pen rest to get the top burr aligned.
I just can't get my head around how you can use one unknown reference surface as a test for the first.
Maybe it is just me...


----------



## profesor_historia

AnthonyTD said:


> I honestly don't understand the method of doing the bottom burr first like this.
> 
> You have taken a carrier that was probably machined to be running true to the motors axis and a burr which is quite likely parallel top to bottom and then added shims between them based on a test against a top burr that you have no idea whether it is aligned or not (actually you assume it is not as you later align it).
> 
> Doing this means you probably skewing the bottom burr out of the motors axis and then trying to make the top burr match (also then out of alignment with the motors axis)
> 
> In all honestly I would put my money on the carrier and bottom burr already being good enough and just aligning the top burr to them.
> 
> Or if you have the tools run a dial test indicator on the bottom burr, get it running true and then use the marker pen rest to get the top burr aligned.
> I just can't get my head around how you can use one unknown reference surface as a test for the first.
> Maybe it is just me...


I agree with you, don't fancy the idea of having to do mods and stuff to a new grinder which is not exactly very cheap. I think sometimes we maybe exagerate with many things regarding our gear, like aligning when we're not sure if necessary, descale without having the fantiest idea if necessary or not etc. Why would I think a new grinder doesn't have the burrs aligned? How could someone tell from 2 shots, let's say, one before aligning them and one after, which is better? I wouldn't for sure and I definitely wouldn't touch anything on a new grinder, for that I rather buy second hand. I paid 30€ for my current Mazzer SJ, I can afford playing with it .
That's of course only my opinion.


----------



## ajohn

AnthonyTD said:


> I just can't get my head around how you can use one unknown reference surface as a test for the first.
> Maybe it is just me...


 The basic idea is that the bottom burr is running on the motor axis as it's being rotated and is touching some part of the upper burr which effectively = the dti. I prefer to measure it as well.


----------



## AnthonyTD

ajohn said:


> The basic idea is that the bottom burr is running on the motor axis as it's being rotated and is touching some part of the upper burr which effectively = the dti. I prefer to measure it as well.


Yes but a dti is a point reference. Another burr is an entire surface. If that surface is not perfectly flat and your bottom burr is wobbling as it goes around (ie not running true) all you can say is that they touched, not necessarily that the touch point is the high point.


----------



## zellleonhart

AnthonyTD said:


> ajohn said:
> 
> 
> 
> The basic idea is that the bottom burr is running on the motor axis as it's being rotated and is touching some part of the upper burr which effectively = the dti. I prefer to measure it as well.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes but a dti is a point reference. Another burr is an entire surface. If that surface is not perfectly flat and your bottom burr is wobbling as it goes around (ie not running true) all you can say is that they touched, not necessarily that the touch point is the high point.
Click to expand...

 Thanks for your input, this is the first time I ever aligned a grinder, and I just referred to most of the guides available out there (e.g. Matt Perger's, and a few more). While I wouldn't go to the extent of getting a dial indicator to align this grinder, I only put a single 0.01mm shim below the bottom burr so I *think* it is fine to leave it as is, for now.


----------



## Gordinho

Fellow Canadiens.. seems like one has ordered from Alibaba and another from another shop. How was that experience including customs ? Given the current reality of getting a niche zero I've become interested in this little guy..

I'm looking for a bit of a unicorn grinder.. v60 in the morning and espresso afternoon. How realistic is it to change settings every day and be consistent about it? I understand I will never land exactly on the same grind size specially as far as espresso goes ( I'm just not obsessed about it) but I would really love my grinder count to one.. 

Do people do this routinely with a niche zero?


----------



## DavecUK

@Gordinho no problem with Solo or Niche


----------



## naturalganja

Dallah said:


> @zellleonhart As you will see from this question & answer from the distributor of SSP burrs and Lagom grinders in the USA those "multipurpose" burrs are just another name for the Unimodal burrs.
> 
> View attachment 56129


 As others have pointed out, prima-Coffee is only carrying the "Unimodal burr set included with the Lagom", as you can read on the answered question you shared, which are not the Brew burrs anymore but the Multipurpose aka Unimodal-Espresso. They look very similar beside the addition of these flat areas to produce more fines at espresso range.

@Gordinho I ordered to Toronto from The Gluons on Facebook ($375 USD + $100 for shipping = $600 CAD all in) but you might as well order from Alibaba, same thing really and The Gluons is backed up. Regarding transition from filter to espresso on a regular basis, I'm sure you could do that easily. I personally prefer to open up the grinder to clean the burrs and get rid of the trapped fines before to switch to pour over, but I do this with my Comandante as well. Maybe it's an unnecessary step for most but I quite enjoy the whole process to be honest, very therapeutic to me!


----------



## HaggisMoose

Just wondered what ranges people are using with the Solo.

From touching point, where are you brewing espresso and filter. I seem to be about 10 marks on from biting for start of espresso range but trying to track where filter is just now.

It's weird as I did one at 45 which was only say 30 more than espresso but the grinds looked quite fine. V60 tasted not too bad though. Tried up at 60 then 50 and started to get a bit sour so wanted to see what ranges you all had for you different brew methods.


----------



## Mrboots2u

HaggisMoose said:


> Just wondered what ranges people are using with the Solo.
> 
> From touching point, where are you brewing espresso and filter. I seem to be about 10 marks on from biting for start of espresso range but trying to track where filter is just now.
> 
> It's weird as I did one at 45 which was only say 30 more than espresso but the grinds looked quite fine. V60 tasted not too bad though. Tried up at 60 then 50 and started to get a bit sour so wanted to see what ranges you all had for you different brew methods.


 The grinders will be different , then you have no reference to dose and coffee made or roast level , so a number may be largely irrelevant . 
if you are enjoying your coffee then don't stress about other people's experiences , use your taste bud to adjust not other people's grinder settings .


----------



## HaggisMoose

Mrboots2u said:


> The grinders will be different , then you have no reference to dose and coffee made or roast level , so a number may be largely irrelevant .
> if you are enjoying your coffee then don't stress about other people's experiences , use your taste bud to adjust not other people's grinder settings .


 I was wanting to know how much people are adding to say an espresso grind to get to V60 so I can know where to go as at the moment I seem to be not hitting the correct range.


----------



## Mrboots2u

HaggisMoose said:


> I was wanting to know how much people are adding to say an espresso grind to get to V60 so I can know where to go as at the moment I seem to be not hitting the correct range.


 Will depend on their dose to some degree

what dose are you using l to make how much v60 coffee. What's up your poor method and draw down time l it's easier if you have a set technique to work to pf your own than trying to do it from other people's grinders .


----------



## HVL87

As it is difficult to compare grinder settings, it may be worthwhile buying something like the below which will give you a rough idea of grind size for each brew method:

https://shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/grind-size-sample-pack


----------



## DavecUK

HaggisMoose said:


> Just wondered what ranges people are using with the Solo.
> 
> From touching point, where are you brewing espresso and filter. I seem to be about 10 marks on from biting for start of espresso range but trying to track where filter is just now.
> 
> It's weird as I did one at 45 which was only say 30 more than espresso but the grinds looked quite fine. V60 tasted not too bad though. Tried up at 60 then 50 and started to get a bit sour so wanted to see what ranges you all had for you different brew methods.


 I might be able to at least help....I know it's imperfect, but worth considering. On the internet, I found this and if we assume it's reasonable, which it may not be but iit can always be refined:









*I also worked out (measured) that 1 mark on the Solo grinder is approx 12.5 microns. The espresso midpoint around 15 from burr touching....giving you 187.5 Micron, plus around 25 micron for the gap in the grind zone, that exists when the burrs are touching. *

So by that reckoning filter would be around 82 - 87 from burr touching point..

If you wanted french press then you would have to do around 120 (which would be one whole revolution from burr touching point.

This might put you in the unmarked quadrant, but each 45 degree quadrant is 30 marks....you you should be able to estimate where you are OK.

Hopefully @MWJB can give a better reference on Micron grind sizes for various brew methods...which I do realise would only ever be a rough and ready guide.


----------



## naturalganja

DavecUK said:


> *around 25 micron for the gap in the grind zone, that exists when the burrs are touching. *


 I just want to make sure I understand, what do you mean by this?

My understanding:

When going to the first burr touching point, some part of the burrs is touching whereas the rest isn't. When rotating the burrs slightly from there so you are in the non-touching spot, and then tightening up the collar, there are about 2 increments until the burrs touch again.

Am I getting it right?


----------



## HaggisMoose

Cheers everyone for the info. I'll go do some more testing.


----------



## MWJB

DavecUK said:


> I might be able to at least help....I know it's imperfect, but worth considering. On the internet, I found this and if we assume it's reasonable, which it may not be but iit can always be refined:
> 
> View attachment 56200
> 
> 
> *I also worked out (measured) that 1 mark on the Solo grinder is approx 12.5 microns. The espresso midpoint around 15 from burr touching....giving you 187.5 Micron, plus around 25 micron for the gap in the grind zone, that exists when the burrs are touching. *
> 
> So by that reckoning filter would be around 82 - 87 from burr touching point..
> 
> If you wanted french press then you would have to do around 120 (which would be one whole revolution from burr touching point.
> 
> This might put you in the unmarked quadrant, but each 45 degree quadrant is 30 marks....you you should be able to estimate where you are OK.
> 
> Hopefully @MWJB can give a better reference on Micron grind sizes for various brew methods...which I do realise would only ever be a rough and ready guide.


 I'm not sure how burr gap relates to average grind size, or if a given gap relates to the same average particle size for different burrs (given the gap when zeroed changes with different profile finishing areas, I doubt it).

E.g. My Feldgrind with a 1.33mm gap (vertical) gives a grind around 780um average, but my Zassenhaus with a 2.27mm gap gives about 840um average. Both give 29% at 600um ISO/ASTM. Feld 4% at 1180um, Zassenhaus 20% at 1180um.

Average espresso is typically stated as being 350um +/- 100um, fine grinding flats may be at the lower end, conicals towards the higher.

Auto drip grind from ~480um to 600um.

Cupping grind (SCAA, Agtron) ~700um.

Manual drip grind ~800um, +/-100um.

French press grind could be coarse espresso, auto drip for glass presses with a single wall, up to manual drip for insulated presses with a long steep. You can't brew any coffee to a normal extraction at home with 1500um coffee grinds.

All sizes given are average grind sizes, units are um not Kruve equivalent (you get differing results with Kruve vs ISO/ASTM sieves. Maybe try 600 to 800Kruve?

For espresso sifting isn't that useful, at anything much under average size (50%), up to 84%, or 95%.

In short, the best way to ascertain what your grind size is, for a given grinder, is to sift some grind (I do 2min, side to side with occasional vertical & side taps) & record %, within 5%. Then other users can use that as a basis. Obviously you need to use a sieve with a known mesh size & of the same manufacturing standard.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

@HaggisMoose As I've only had the grinder for 2 full days, I haven't had many V60 yet, but for some Ethiopia Guji light roast beans, I'm at setting 0-1 for espresso (about 7 marks from burrs touching point), and brewed 15g at 1:15 in 4+ minutes at setting 90 (4:6 method).

I'm still quite novice and haven't perfected my technique yet, but at least this should give some indications on the range.

Unfortunately this seems to mean that most my V60s will be located at the only spot without markings, might have to do something about it later on.


----------



## HaggisMoose

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> @HaggisMoose As I've only had the grinder for 2 full days, I haven't had many V60 yet, but for some Ethiopia Guji light roast beans, I'm at setting 0-1 for espresso (about 7 marks from burrs touching point), and brewed 15g at 1:15 in 4+ minutes at setting 90 (4:6 method).
> 
> I'm still quite novice and haven't perfected my technique yet, but at least this should give some indications on the range.
> 
> Unfortunately this seems to mean that most my V60s will be located at the only spot without markings, might have to do something about it later on.


 Cheers. I've noticed you have to go high as well. My espresso is around the 7 mark and I did a 15g V60 using a grind at mark 75 (worked out using @DavecUK calculations above) where it took about 4 mins to brew out 250g. Tastes better than the last V60 I did. I'll try brewing around that area for the next few tries to see what happens.


----------



## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> I just want to make sure I understand, what do you mean by this?
> 
> My understanding:
> 
> When going to the first burr touching point, some part of the burrs is touching whereas the rest isn't. When rotating the burrs slightly from there so you are in the non-touching spot, and then tightening up the collar, there are about 2 increments until the burrs touch again.
> 
> Am I getting it right?


 I think what DaveC means (and he can correct me if I am wrong) is that when the top and bottom burr and touching and aligned perfectly (entier surfaces on each side touching) there is still a gap created by the channels ground into the burr.

So in this image (randomly scraped from the net with my markings on). When the burrs are touching perfectly all the red flats are touching each other, but there is a gap marked in green that would allow very fine grinds through (as Dave said 25um)









In fact when you use a dial test indicator to check the alignment of the bottom burr you notice that these are there and the DTI registeres them as it goes over them.


----------



## naturalganja

Thank you @AnthonyTD that makes a lot of sense! I didn't take the time to process it and got confused with Dave explanation to find which top burr position is the most aligned:

"find the first glide point that you can feel (note which mark on the dial it's on), then move to the loose point and move the burrs backwards and forwards tightening down the adjuster until you feel the second rub. Note the mark you're at now."

Now I just have to find a shop who can let me run a precision dial indicator!


----------



## wahman

i think this is the grinder i want... this or the niche. i would love a video comparing the two.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

wahman said:


> i think this is the grinder i want... this or the niche. i would love a video comparing the two.


 Niche might still be up grabs if you head here on this forum. You need to take a Bronze sponsorship to avail this.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/58386-the-next-drop/page/13/


----------



## dutchy101

Quick question for owners of the Solo who use a standard 58mm portafilter (I've got a Bambino Plus which uses a 54mm portafilter).

Does the cradle on the grinder fit and hold the lugs of a 58mm portafilter or is it too wide?

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK

dutchy101 said:


> Quick question for owners of the Solo who use a standard 58mm portafilter (I've got a Bambino Plus which uses a 54mm portafilter).
> 
> Does the cradle on the grinder fit and hold the lugs of a 58mm portafilter or is it too wide?
> 
> Thanks


 Don't think it will no... I'm using a 54mm Vostock portafilter...I simply grind into the cup and use a pf ring


----------



## dutchy101

Thanks Dave - glad to see the 5 year old beans haven't keeled you over


----------



## madbadger

Having pretty much decided to get a solo (after missing the window for a zero) I now see that BB only have them available in the carbon fibre wrap. 😢


----------



## ajohn

Having found I'd messed up shimming I had another go using dry wipe white board pens. :yuk: Turns out that the shim was 50um too thick. It messed up SSP burrs completely, flooding at all settings.

So bottom turned out like this Measuring says better than 10um but I'd need a much firmer surface to be sure









The triangles go black due to lighting and angles and there is some red in the cut outs. This checks with DTI results.

Top needed a shim









I'm a bit mystified by the few triangle above the bottom right screw that still have red on them. Mic'ing the burr up doesn't show any significant difference in thickness. Maybe the pen didn't leave an even coating.

 The touch point is now a good 10 dots down below the O indication. I have read that these things need to be set rather fine -  sounds like "fun".


----------



## ajohn

Whoops forgot to mention I tried fitting Mazzer burrs and they wouldn't. 37mm bore and it seems 38mm is needed. I wanted to try some well run in Mazzer Mini burrs. Have Jolly as well, unused but packet states 37mm bore.

First shot SSP burrs a little too coarse about 5 and a bit dots off touching.


----------



## AnthonyTD

So I have come up with a solution to the grind indicator. My solution is 100% reversible, allows you to set the zero and is much easier to see:









This was 3D printed:









It is a snug fit on the grinder upper burr carrier but I included the option to add a small 5mm gub screw to hold it in place after you have zeroed it. Just run a M5 tap through the hole that is 3D printed and add a small M5x5mm grub screw.









Zeroing is simple - just tighten the grind adjustment till you know you are at zero (burrs touching - I manually turn and do not use the motor), rotate the indicator to zero and then snug down the grub screw. Not too tight because you dont want to marr the grinder and also you dont want to strip the plastic threads.









So where can you get one of these? Well in the spirit of giving I have shared the stl file on dropbox here:

GrindIndicator

Please shout if you cannot access it. Very basic to print - you should not need any supports. As I said I made it a snug fit on the carrier - if it is too tight you could try scale it up by 0.5% or just rub down the inside with some sandpaper till it fits to your liking.

All I ask is that if you do share this please acknowledge me and also I would really appreciate it if you dont try to make money out of printing them.

I made the arrow intentionally short - if anyone would like a longer one I can modify the cad file and upload a second stl file

edit: Ok made one more with a finer and longer arrow. I have not printed it yet but here is the model:

GrindIndicator_Rev2


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Hi all, I've been doing more V60 pours recently, and noticed a trend that at around marker 90, I'm getting quite a fair bit of fines and boulders, does anyone else have the same issues? I can't really tell on the espresso settings, but maybe that's why I'm not totally satisfied with the shots I pull. 
I also noticed that pouring the beans slowly while grinding helps with consistency.

If I understand correctly, this could be improved by controlling the flow of beans going through the burrs, like the Niche NFC disk does. @DavecUK (or anyone else in here) have you tried using the disk on the Solo or some other flow control method? Would the 1400rpm cause some issues and prevent the beans from reaching the burrs?


----------



## DavecUK

Using a flow control disk may not work that well at those speeds


----------



## Giampiero

ajohn said:


> Whoops forgot to mention I tried fitting Mazzer burrs and they wouldn't. 37mm bore and it seems 38mm is needed. I wanted to try some well run in Mazzer Mini burrs. Have Jolly as well, unused but packet states 37mm bore.
> 
> First shot SSP burrs a little too coarse about 5 and a bit dots off touching.


 I did install the Mazzer 33M, and for me was perfect, Mazzer 33M is the version for Super Jolly.


----------



## AnthonyTD

Installed the version with the thinner pointer - I like this one, can really help point out tiny adjujstments in the grind.


----------



## ajohn

Giampiero said:


> I did install the Mazzer 33M, and for me was perfect, Mazzer 33M is the version for Super Jolly.


 The ones I have are 33M marked correctly. In the packet though so didn't actually fit them. It states 37mm bore. The ones I tried to fit were taken out of my Mazzer Mini E, near new when I bought it. I didn't notice the boss in the grinder was too large as shimmed them in place then wondered what was going on when I checked run out. Undid the screws and noticed that the burr could rock. They were only a little too small.

I mentioned them not fitting to @DavecUK and he was going to check but hasn't come back yet.

The SSP burrs are 38mm bore as are the ones that come with the grinder. 😳 Next shot with the SSP is 3 dots from touching. Hoping that is too fine.


----------



## Giampiero

ajohn said:


> The ones I have are 33M marked correctly. In the packet though so didn't actually fit them. It states 37mm bore. The ones I tried to fit were taken out of my Mazzer Mini E, near new when I bought it. I didn't notice the boss in the grinder was too large as shimmed them in place then wondered what was going on when I checked run out. Undid the screws and noticed that the burr could rock. They were only a little too small.
> 
> I mentioned them not fitting to @DavecUK and he was going to check but hasn't come back yet.
> 
> The SSP burrs are 38mm bore as are the ones that come with the grinder. 😳 Next shot with the SSP is 3 dots from touching. Hoping that is too fine.


 This one it fit.


----------



## ajohn

This is my Jolly burrs and having opened the packet they are 37mm bore. ~37.13 so wont fit mine. Same as the Mini burrs.









Marking on the underside exactly the same as my Mini burrs. Mazzer seem to want to make fakes more noticeable or a faker has gone to trouble to make people think that.


----------



## Giampiero

ajohn said:


> This is my Jolly burrs and having opened the packet they are 37mm bore. ~37.13 so wont fit mine. Same as the Mini burrs.
> 
> 
> View attachment 56436
> 
> 
> Marking on the underside exactly the same as my Mini burrs. Mazzer seem to want to make fakes more noticeable or a faker has gone to trouble to make people think that.


 You are right, for some reason mine "seemed" to fit, i really did not felt any wobbling and surprisingly were even works good...but i just removed it and ...bang they can't fit at all, it's only a matter of impossible coincidence. If you never posted about your "tentative", i probably would still to use it as nothing happen😂


----------



## ajohn

Giampiero said:


> "tentative",


 LOL There was nothing tentative about it other than the boss on my Solo being larger than others. I doubt if it is.

🤣 I briefly wondered about grinding up a graver and doing some free hand turning using it's motor power but no tool rest.


----------



## naturalganja

@AnthonyTD Thank you so much for your generosity! This is fantastic I'm definitely going to try to get this printed out and fit it on my grinder! I will also share it, if you're ok with it, with a few people who have the grinder. Before that, let me know how you want to be acknowledged, if I should just say " @AnthonyTD from coffeefrorums" or anything else. People will be very grateful just as I am!

@CoffeeAndCigarettes I have only tried once to do pour over and I went too fine but I experienced same thing as you, however I have aligned the burrs since then so I'll give it another go today.

Quick question however: did you clean your grinder between change of brew method? When I went from espresso range to filter, I ended up with more ground out than beans in, and I believe what caused this is the larger particles (boulders) probably grabbed on their down the accumulated fines at the exit chute.

Anyway, I'll let you know how it goes for me today


----------



## AnthonyTD

In all honesty I think all I am saying is don't claim that it is your design. I by no means expect an email thanking me 

Sorry just had bad experiences in the past where I have shared a 3D model that I made and ended up seeing my model being sold by other people.

Not that this one is by any means ground breaking...


----------



## Giampiero

Don't worry @naturalganja i can send you all the project files of my device 😂


----------



## naturalganja

> 1 minute ago, Giampiero said:
> 
> Don't worry @naturalganja i can send you all the project files of my device 😂


 You HAVE TO sell this! This is groundbreaking innovation right there!


----------



## ajohn

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> I'm getting quite a fair bit of fines and boulders, does anyone else have the same issues?


 Varies a bit. I'm using a light roast in it. Original burrs and SSP pure espresso which need a rather fine setting.

Some large chunks get blown out with both and also coffee grind ball bearings more so with SSP. The chunks aren't much of a problem as may break up with a slight side to side shake. The ball bearings are firm. There are plenty of decent grinds as well. Some shots with the standard burrs have been virtually ball bearing free. It varies.

More worrying is retention. Standard burrs can loose 1/2g a shot unless it's spun up and puffed again. Do that several times and retention gets down to near Niche levels. That's the standard burrs. Double the number for SSP and more variability on what comes out. Last shot found another 0.4g that came from an earlier one where I thought my scales were acting up as well over 1g lost. I puffed and spun up to get close with the shot after that so it's odd another 0.4g came out.

The odd texture to the grinds has gone as the rubber flaps are distorted now. In need of a life but easy for me to do they now look like this. Grinds between the 2 layers - I think.









The dark roast beans that choked it up were ok with standard burrs at a fairly coarse setting but the grinder choked at what was likely to be an espresso level going on other beans. I know it flooded at higher settings. The lower burr was ok at that point but the upper burr needed a 0.003" shim. 76um  my shims are imperial.

 Suppose I will order some interesting dark roast beans and see what happens. The ones I was using were purely for running in.

Can't say I have tasted much in the line of fines on either burr sets but that could be down to the beans I have put through it. Maybe on the light roast compared with the SSP burrs but I would want to swear to that as bitterness was controllable.


----------



## AnthonyTD

> 4 minutes ago, Giampiero said:
> 
> Don't worry @naturalganja i can send you all the project files of my device 😂


 Yes that is all fine with a white grinder but where are we to get black plates to fit our black grinders??


----------



## Giampiero

AnthonyTD said:


> Yes that is all fine with a white grinder but where are we to get black plates to fit our black grinders??


 Ikea?😁


----------



## ajohn

More missing grams so thought I should look to see where they were. This is with a light roast.









Explains why substantial losses were not coming out. Well compacted on the ends of the grinds sweeper. Needed poking off .


----------



## Rob1

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Hi all, I've been doing more V60 pours recently, and noticed a trend that at around marker 90, I'm getting quite a fair bit of fines and boulders, does anyone else have the same issues? I can't really tell on the espresso settings, but maybe that's why I'm not totally satisfied with the shots I pull.
> I also noticed that pouring the beans slowly while grinding helps with consistency.
> 
> If I understand correctly, this could be improved by controlling the flow of beans going through the burrs, like the Niche NFC disk does. @DavecUK (or anyone else in here) have you tried using the disk on the Solo or some other flow control method? Would the 1400rpm cause some issues and prevent the beans from reaching the burrs?


 Before the NFC came along people tried fitting a Eureka auger to it. They used to be available to buy on Bella Barista but I can't see them anymore. You'll be able to get something 3D printed though.

https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/niche-zero-popcorning-fix-t60594.html


----------



## MWJB

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Hi all, I've been doing more V60 pours recently, and noticed a trend that at around marker 90, I'm getting quite a fair bit of fines and boulders, does anyone else have the same issues? I can't really tell on the espresso settings, but maybe that's why I'm not totally satisfied with the shots I pull.
> I also noticed that pouring the beans slowly while grinding helps with consistency.
> 
> If I understand correctly, this could be improved by controlling the flow of beans going through the burrs, like the Niche NFC disk does. @DavecUK (or anyone else in here) have you tried using the disk on the Solo or some other flow control method? Would the 1400rpm cause some issues and prevent the beans from reaching the burrs?


 All coarse grinds look uneven. If you set the grinder coarse you get less fines & more boulders. Not an increase in both.

Your grinder would need to be quite severely broken/malfunctioning to not be able to pull drinkable shots.


----------



## ajohn

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Hi all, I've been doing more V60 pours recently, and noticed a trend that at around marker 90, I'm getting quite a fair bit of fines and boulders


 The boulders are rather soft, at least the ones I have had are. Balls 3 to 4mm roughly round are far from being soft. Too firm springs to mind.

Mine just gobbled up 2 1/2g of beans from a shot from clean. Put more in and still lost over a 1g of those. Light roast again and original burrs this time but set too fine for a sensible shot  so ran a 60sec one. Curiously it didn't taste that bad.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> The boulders are rather soft, at least the ones I have had are.


 Sounds like an agglomeration of finer grinds, boulders are usually just large chunks of solid bean.


----------



## turkalpmd

How did you season your SSP burrs? My mill stops in 45 seconds and stuck while grinding 100 grams.


----------



## ajohn

MWJB said:


> Sounds like an agglomeration of finer grinds, boulders are usually just large chunks of solid bean.


 The big ones come out with puffs and may break up a bit with a side to side shake. The little ones are boulders, firmly held together. A number of those come out along with grinds that seem to be ok.


----------



## ajohn

turkalpmd said:


> How did you season your SSP burrs? My mill stops in 45 seconds and stuck while grinding 100 grams.


 I bought used ones of some one who had changed grinders and taken them out when he sold his old grinder. They aren't the unimodal style ones for brew. They are for espresso, reduced fines and need setting a lot finer than the burrs that come with it. They need to be set a few dots from touching. Each dot represents ~9um of burr movement. They are so close adjustment isn't easy.

From reading I think you will find the unimodal variants need setting way too fine for espresso but maybe the dual use ones are better.

The grinder choked up after 2 13.5g doses of the dark roast I used to season the burrs it came with.The first one of those was too coarse. It was ok set well over espresso levels. I put 1.5kg through like that.The shot I posted last shows that it was on it's way to choking with the SSP burrs and a light roast. Loosing ~gram or more every shot. I'm nearly out of the light roast now.


----------



## pandabear

Genuinely curious to understand, if anyone knows, why this is being touted as a single dose grinder? There is no mention of popcorning when, after I have talked about using a modded Mignon with bellows for single dosing, I got told that popcorning would be my issue there?

If I'm right, the only difference between the two grinders if the Mignon is modded is the extra burr width (which crudely just means faster grind time), no?


----------



## turkalpmd

ajohn said:


> I bought used ones of some one who had changed grinders and taken them out when he sold his old grinder. They aren't the unimodal style ones for brew. They are for espresso, reduced fines and need setting a lot finer than the burrs that come with it. They need to be set a few dots from touching. Each dot represents ~9um of burr movement. They are so close adjustment isn't easy.
> 
> From reading I think you will find the unimodal variants need setting way too fine for espresso but maybe the dual use ones are better.
> 
> The grinder choked up after 2 13.5g doses of the dark roast I used to season the burrs it came with.The first one of those was too coarse. It was ok set well over espresso levels. I put 1.5kg through like that.The shot I posted last shows that it was on it's way to choking with the SSP burrs and a light roast. Loosing ~gram or more every shot. I'm nearly out of the light roast now.


 Thank you for yor rapidly response. I bought to the multipurpose red speed burr. Should I be worried because it is choked is this normal? My grinder has chocked with light roast Ethiopian beans about 100 grams at 60th levels. Then I had been shocked hearing to choking sound. 

I live in Turkey, my friend suggested this site. I am quite satisfied with this forum. I learned a lot, especially thanks to you and Dave. Then I have bought the grinder from Amanda with other three friens. 

Gagne ground about 10 kilograms of coffee;
https://coffeeadastra.com/2019/05/27/seasoning-grinder-burrs-and-grind-quality-2/amp/


----------



## MWJB

pandabear said:


> Genuinely curious to understand, if anyone knows, why this is being touted as a single dose grinder? There is no mention of popcorning when, after I have talked about using a modded Mignon with bellows for single dosing, I got told that popcorning would be my issue there?
> 
> If I'm right, the only difference between the two grinders if the Mignon is modded is the extra burr width (which crudely just means faster grind time), no?


 All single dose, gravity fed grinders, electric or hand cranked, with no weight of beans above the burrs popcorn

Given that they work, popcorning isn't really an issue as long as you can tolerate bits of bean on your work surface.


----------



## DavecUK

@turkalpmd when you say the grinder made a choking sounds did it slow down or stop?

Were you grinding for espresso or brewed?


----------



## turkalpmd

DavecUK said:


> @turkalpmd when you say the grinder made a choking sounds did it slow down or stop?
> 
> Were you grinding for espresso or brewed?


 When I grinding to brew size, the grinder has made a choking sound, and then the grinder motor stopped after slowing.


----------



## DavecUK

@turkalpmd it is possible the burrs you used were to aggressive and tried to grind too fast. This can stall the motor because of the loads to grind the coffee. Or the coffee backs up in the grind chamber and jams the sweep arms.

Next time open the grinder burrs and have a look to see which it is.


----------



## turkalpmd

DavecUK said:


> @turkalpmd it is possible the burrs you used were to aggressive and tried to grind too fast. This can stall the motor because of the loads to grind the coffee. Or the coffee backs up in the grind chamber and jams the sweep arms.
> 
> Next time open the grinder burrs and have a look to see which it is.


 I have found why the grinder was choked. Coffee fine powders were plugged into the chute. Maybe continuous grinding damaged to grinder, that's very logical but my prior problem "How can I seasoning to my SSP burrs in this conditions?".


----------



## DavecUK

turkalpmd said:


> I have found why the grinder was choked. Coffee fine powders were plugged into the chute. Maybe continuous grinding damaged to grinder, that's very logical but my prior problem "How can I seasoning to my SSP burrs in this conditions?".


 This would have caused the sweep arms to jam. I think there might be 2 things you can try when grinding for brewed. I assume your grinding more than 18g

1. Press the bellows periodically whe grinding to prevent coffee backing up.

2. Try splitting the beans into 2 halves and grind each half separately.


----------



## pandabear

MWJB said:


> All single dose, gravity fed grinders, electric or hand cranked, with no weight of beans above the burrs popcorn
> 
> Given that they work, popcorning isn't really an issue as long as you can tolerate bits of bean on your work surface.


 Agreed, does that mean that this along with the Niche and a SD-modded Mignon will all create an "uneven" grind due to the inherent popcorning?

I noticed that @DavecUK mentioned in one of his videos of the Solo that he distributes the grounds to disperse and incorporate the coarser grounds from the dose before any further puck prep, which would suggest yes to my question above.

I have a Mignon and I'm coming at this specifically from the angle of "is this going to change my espresso significantly if I were to buy a hopper and bellows for my Mignon and then upgrade and compare to the Solo?"


----------



## DavecUK

@pandabear yes grounds will go from fine to coarse giving a wider distribution. This happens on all single dosers.

Slower grind speed might help a little, but it's the main reason I asked Niche to make a flow control disk, to greatly reduce this. Which it does. There are posts in the forum where I tested and verified this by splitting the grind into 2 halves as it was coming out the chute...search and you will eventually find it. If you do link it so I can find it again. 🤣


----------



## ajohn

turkalpmd said:


> Gagne ground about 10 kilograms of coffee;


 The coated burrs in the past have been said to not need running in however my used ones have been plus normal use. They were from some one who only drinks light roast. They are the reduced fines espresso burrs.

10kg for running in is a number that has been mentioned for ordinary none coated burrs. On other new grinders I have found that 2kg can reduce the degree of clumping at espresso grind levels. I always use a darkish roast. On this one it chocked as soon as I set an espresso level using the burrs it came with.

As I also have Niche I have put these beans through it as well also the light roast shown in the last photo I posted with the top burr removed. It doesn't need a particularly fine setting and neither caused it any problems at all.

Popcorning and flat is a tricky area. It comes from what people find when the switch a grinder between weighing in and use with the hopper on. Typically on a Mazzer the antistatic grid would be removed for weighing in and after a dose is ground very little remains in the grind chamber. When the hopper is on the grinds chamber and it's exit is more or less full of grinds all of the time. This results in a coarser grind setting than when beans are weighed in so some people will not use these grinders for weighing in. They claim a taste change. A 1200rpm flat burr grinder can't really be compared with a hand grinder even more so as the hand grinders use conical burrs which tend to self feed what ever beans or bits of beans are above them. Flat uses centrifugal force with bean breaker cut outs to get them to grind.

Weighing in on a Mignon may be similar to this one as I believe it's fitted with a clump crusher. Depends on what it is. This one uses 2 sheets of silicone rubber.

The SSP espresso burrs do grind faster but for a 1 to 2 ratio same light roast bean I don't think there is much in it really compared with the burrs it comes with. This probably down to the very fine setting the SSP burrs need.


----------



## ajohn

@DavecUK I remember one on Niche, one bean at a time etc but have only seen mention of the other one.


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## MWJB

pandabear said:


> Agreed, does that mean that this along with the Niche and a SD-modded Mignon will all create an "uneven" grind due to the inherent popcorning?
> 
> I noticed that @DavecUK mentioned in one of his videos of the Solo that he distributes the grounds to disperse and incorporate the coarser grounds from the dose before any further puck prep, which would suggest yes to my question above.


 "Uneven" suggests there's something wrong with it, or that it is abnormally uneven. If it was, no one would be able to brew with it. Yet, people brew happily with single dose grinders all the time.

You can't change the grind distribution after grinding, without sifting a certain size out of the grind (faff). You need to distribute the dose in the basket whatever grinder you use, so no, it's not really relevant to your question.

What are your normalshot parameters, Are you only interested in very short ratios &very high extractions?

It takes a lot to change your espresso significantly from a grind perspective & I haven't seen any grind data for either grinder...so try belllows & single dosing on your Mignon & see how it goes. Try not to intreoduce any confounding factors.


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## DavecUK

I found it, this is the test I did

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48599-niche-zero-popcorning/?do=embed&comment=704276&embedComment=704276&embedDo=findComment

@ajohn asked me about the controls e.g. without the disk

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48599-niche-zero-popcorning/?do=embed&comment=704360&embedComment=704360&embedDo=findComment

There were some people quite concerned about the grind size changing but didn't really seem interested in the results, or comment about it....I thought it was was odd, perhaps they didn't see my tests. When the Flow Control Disks came out Niche game me a load to give away to forum members....


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## Rob1

ajohn said:


> Popcorning and flat is a tricky area. It comes from what people find when the switch a grinder between weighing in and use with the hopper on. Typically on a Mazzer the antistatic grid would be removed for weighing in and after a dose is ground very little remains in the grind chamber. When the hopper is on the grinds chamber and it's exit is more or less full of grinds all of the time. This results in a coarser grind setting than when beans are weighed in so some people will not use these grinders for weighing in. They claim a taste change. A 1200rpm flat burr grinder can't really be compared with a hand grinder even more so as the hand grinders use conical burrs which tend to self feed what ever beans or bits of beans are above them. Flat uses centrifugal force with bean breaker cut outs to get them to grind.


 I'm not sure where you're getting this from or how you've tested the accuracy of the hypothesis RE the grind chamber being full/empty affecting grind drifting coarser. It seems extremely unlikely to me this could possibly affect grind setting. When the grinder is running the grinder, hopper fed or not, is constantly spinning the sweeper arms removing grinds from the chamber and the chute. If you stop the grinder and have a look in the chamber it'll be full of grinds because the grinder isn't running, not because it's full of grinds when it is. What I'm saying is the hypothesis seems to be based on this idea that the grinds chamber gets full and coffee gets backed up in the burrs resulting in a finer grind but if this were the case grinders with larger and smaller grind chambers would be less/more prone to this grind size drifting when run with a hopper vs single dosed. Many different grinders were used some years ago, I believe in a test started by DSC, which involved splitting the grinds into thirds, they would all have had different size burr chambers and spin speeds yet all reported broadly the same shot time differences between shots made with doses from the three thirds combined. On my Ceado there's no anti-static screen or anything and the chamber hasn't been full when running with a mini-hopper and weight with a constant 20g dose above the burrs or plain single dosing, the only thing there is are chunks of bean above the burrs and a couple of shards in the breaker zone. I've also put more than a single dose in a Lido E and Pharos before to make consecutive shots and there was a shot time difference between the two shots made even though the grinds just fall into a collection cup. To me it seems likely much more accurate to conclude it's the beans above the burrs and the rate at which they are ground through them that affects whether the burrs are 'full' which will affect grind size, rather than the rate at which the burrs are able to grind being slowed down by a full grinds chamber.....if the latter were true manufacturers could create an independent sweeper arm system that spins at some ideal speed or delays spinning initially to minimise any drift when grinding a single dose.


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## ajohn

Rob1 said:


> On my Ceado there's no anti-static screen or anything and the chamber hasn't been full when running with a mini-hopper and weight with a constant 20g dose above the burrs or plain single dosing, the only thing there is are chunks of bean above the burrs and a couple of shards in the breaker zone


 The Ceado I have used is different to other. Grinds exit through a relatively small hole compared with say Mazzer and actually some other and in Ceado's case hit a plate that deflects the grinds down. Remove that and grinds can travel nearly a couple of feet. I sold it as the plate was difficult to remove and clean. Something I think they corrected on a later version.

As to the rest and on several grinders I basically opened them up and looked.


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## ajohn

I should add on the hopper on hopper off weighing in grinder setting debate I have seen comments about the change of settings on here - same as I found. It's an explanation that doesn't have to relate to popcorning really and may or may not.

Glum face - can't find a smiley to suite. My last dose of light roast that I topped up with more beans still loosing more from clean. Original burrs but set too fine but not enough to choke my espresso machine.


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## naturalganja

I just made this adjustment ring that goes all around so we don't end up not having marks between 90 and 0. Just have to figure out how to get this printed on a sticker or a vinyl (if transparent support then will have to change black measurements for white)!

Here is the google drive link for the .ai and .jpeg files if anyone wants to use it or modify it

.jpeg: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IRHzs4Wpq4unp7Q51huayK_42cpGM993/view?usp=sharing

.ai: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14lw2DjnSP0JCUYaQVLtU91a5_UEm2LvO/view?usp=sharing


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## ajohn

You may be able to use laser transfer paper. Print on it and if I remember correctly iron it off.

However there is in excess of 90x0.009mm of adjustment on the dial as it comes = 0.8 odd mm. Rather a lot. While I only use an espresso machine I would have thought that was more than enough for all brewing methods.

The touching point to the zero mark on my dial is ~6.3 divisions on the main dial, via measuring the chord and using that to read the number of divisions it represents. If people want to compare readings they could do it the same way.  Chord length from the touch point or add the zero offset from the touching point to the reading they are using.

As to the 6.3 offset it looks like the only burrs that would need setting in that area are the SSP espresso burrs but my use suggests that grinder is not suitable for them. They certainly aren't with a light roast I have used and I will try a medium shortly.

The problem with the last photo I posted, SSP burrs, was near 2g of trapped grinds mostly against the rubber flaps on the grind chamber exit. They were pushed well out but the clump formed could not be puffed out even before that amount was reached.


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## Chrisbriton

Has anyone done a comparison in grind quality between a solo and the new'ish mignon XL with 64mm burrs?


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## AnthonyTD

ajohn said:


> If people want to compare readings they could do it the same way.  Chord length from the touch point or add the zero offset from the touching point to the reading they are using.


 Or even easier - 3D print the indicator that I made available and use that to indicate your zero point and then there is a common reference for all.

Example - on my grinder the current espresso settign I am using is around teh 8 mark using the bean indicator, but with the one I 3D printed I am 15.5 gradulations away from my zero mark.


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## dutchy101

AnthonyTD said:


> Installed the version with the thinner pointer - I like this one, can really help point out tiny adjujstments in the grind.
> 
> 
> View attachment 56426


 This is brilliant - thanks for sharing the details I'm getting one printed.


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## naturalganja

Just updated the files to be facing the user (don't know why I didn't think of this earlier!).

.jpeg: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1mMvMhUksinjbVpV2IHWuzoBAzQXnDrNd/view?usp=sharing

.ai: https://drive.google.com/file/d/14znVzyGmErNfr7UPEzNimnYSScCRvi9k/view?usp=sharing

Regarding your clogging at the clumping plates @ajohn I have that issue with my stock burrs when grinding at espresso range (not pour over: actually, when grinding for this for the first time after being at espresso range for a while, it literally makes the clog collapse and I end up with an extra g of espresso ground in my pour over dose, which is why I always purge or clean the burrs between brewing method change).

Would you say your exchange has increased with the SSP? Do you notice it when trying to dial in? I've read several good feedback from people who upgraded to SSP, especially on HB, but this doesn't mean it would be "true" for everyone. I'm still planning and waiting on the SSP multi-purpose when they finally make it to Canada!


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## ajohn

My impression is that it's not suitable for the SSP espresso burrs but the same proved true using the burrs that came with it on the particular light roast bean I was using. So a better way of putting it that very fine grinding causes it problems. The grinds can't get out so pack into the chamber exit and puffs don't clear them and grinds collect and compact on the ends of the grinds sweepers. I measured the last lot with the standard burrs ~2g most of it in the exit. A couple of shots did that.

The same happened with a dark roast but that was OK well away from a setting suitable for espresso.

I'm currently using a medium roast that came with the grinder and the burrs that came with it. Only a few shots so far and appears to be ok. Tuning needs some rather small movements on the dial. Small fractions of a dot.

The SSP burrs on the light roast were a lot closer for the same dose and brew rate than the ones that come with it. I'd say ~30um apart. Vibration when running also shifted the touch point a bit  a few um. That's to be expected really.

Niche had no problems at all with any of these beans even grinding finer.


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## cjhacker23

@ajohn It seems you're getting much more retention with this grinder than @DavecUK. What's the discrepancy? Is it that you are pushing its use cases with dark/oily beans and alternate burrs, while @DavecUK was using the stock burrs?

And are you finding this retention causing inconsistent numbers dose to dose? Or is this buildup staying put? I'm asking because I would be fine with some compacted grounds that I have to brush out every week or so if I'm getting 18g in and 18g out consistently.


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## ajohn

I've already mentioned what I have found so why expect me to answer again?


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## cjhacker23

Wow, okay. Nevermind. And to think that this place gets a reputation for unfriendliness!

(EDIT: I just saw your most recent post that answered my question--I hadn't seen it when I asked the question.)


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## ajohn

cjhacker23 said:


> Wow, okay. Nevermind. And to think that this place gets a reputation for unfriendliness!


 I've made a number of posts about it. Best read all. Also a bit busy rather than unfriendly.


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## logica1one

ajohn said:


> My impression is that it's not suitable for the SSP espresso burrs but the same proved true using the burrs that came with it on the particular light roast bean I was using. So a better way of putting it that very fine grinding causes it problems. The grinds can't get out so pack into the chamber exit and puffs don't clear them and grinds collect and compact on the ends of the grinds sweepers. I measured the last lot with the standard burrs ~2g most of it in the exit. A couple of shots did that.
> 
> The same happened with a dark roast but that was OK well away from a setting suitable for espresso.
> 
> I'm currently using a medium roast that came with the grinder and the burrs that came with it. Only a few shots so far and appears to be ok. Tuning needs some rather small movements on the dial. Small fractions of a dot.
> 
> The SSP burrs on the light roast were a lot closer for the same dose and brew rate than the ones that come with it. I'd say ~30um apart. Vibration when running also shifted the touch point a bit  a few um. That's to be expected really.
> 
> Niche had no problems at all with any of these beans even grinding finer.


 Thats interesting to read but quite stressful for me because 4 days ago i ordered a G-iota Grinder with the SSP burrs. But in your findings you highlighted that this grinder is not designed to work with SSP burrs efficiently. So what do you recommend me to do? Cancel my order with SSP and make a new one with the italmil stock burrs? Or cancel the order completely and wait for a later updated model or a different grinder?


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## cjhacker23

logica1one said:


> Thats interesting to read but quite stressful for me because 4 days ago i ordered a G-iota Grinder with the SSP burrs. But in your findings you highlighted that this grinder is not designed to work with SSP burrs efficiently. So what do you recommend me to do? Cancel my order with SSP and make a new one with the italmil stock burrs? Or cancel the order completely and wait for a later updated model or a different grinder?


 I'm in the same boat, and feel the same way. As I wait, I'm anxiously reading reports of current users. I suppose I will know soon enough whether I made a mistake or not, but it would set my mind at ease to hear from others about the potential retention issue.

On YouTube it's nothing but unboxing videos-people pulling their first shots with brand new burrs. This is not useful data. And here so far, with the notable exception of DavecUK's detailed review, we've got a single user pushing oily roasts through the machine after disassembling it and fiddling with the chute, then reporting back that there is retention. Again, not super useful information. At least for a user like myself who will 95 percent of the time be using it for Full City roasts with the stock burr set.

Anyone else who has been using the machine care to chime in?


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## Mrboots2u

logica1one said:


> Thats interesting to read but quite stressful for me because 4 days ago i ordered a G-iota Grinder with the SSP burrs. But in your findings you highlighted that this grinder is not designed to work with SSP burrs efficiently. So what do you recommend me to do? Cancel my order with SSP and make a new one with the italmil stock burrs? Or cancel the order completely and wait for a later updated model or a different grinder?


 I would take the impression of that one person with a pinch of salt tbh.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

cjhacker23 said:


> Wow, okay. Nevermind. And to think that this place gets a reputation for unfriendliness!
> 
> (EDIT: I just saw your most recent post that answered my question--I hadn't seen it when I asked the question.)


 We are sorry, if the forum has given you such an impression. We aren't, IMHO. Please hang around, explore the threads, you will not only learn but we are also sure you will feel different 🙂

On a different note, @DavecUK's review does suggest keeping the stock burrs and his review is positive. Dave wouldn't suggest if he isn't convinced. Happy to be corrected, if otherwise.


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## Giampiero

cjhacker23 said:


> I'm in the same boat, and feel the same way. As I wait, I'm anxiously reading reports of current users. I suppose I will know soon enough whether I made a mistake or not, but it would set my mind at ease to hear from others about the potential retention issue.
> 
> On YouTube it's nothing but unboxing videos-people pulling their first shots with brand new burrs. This is not useful data. And here so far, with the notable exception of DavecUK's detailed review, we've got a single user pushing oily roasts through the machine after disassembling it and fiddling with the chute, then reporting back that there is retention. Again, not super useful information. At least for a user like myself who will 95 percent of the time be using it for Full City roasts with the stock burr set.
> 
> Anyone else who has been using the machine care to chime in?


 If you did not found yet exhaustive answers to your doubts, maybe you could post some precise questions, i do believe that we will have all different experiences due to our different expectations. Is your concern only about the retention/exchange/consistency while grinds Full City with the stock burr set?


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## cjhacker23

Giampiero said:


> If you did not found yet exhaustive answers to your doubts, maybe you could post some precise questions, i do believe that we will have all different experiences due to our different expectations. Is your concern only about the retention/exchange/consistency while grinds Full City with the stock burr set?


 Thanks for the reply, and for the invitation. Yes, my concerns do revolve around retention--with whatever burrset people are using. Initial claims seemed to be between .1 and .2 grams, and basically zero if you were assiduous about RDT and the bellows. Now, for the past few days this thread has seen a user claiming that he is consistently seeing 2 grams of grounds stuck in the machine, with nobody chiming to say, "that's not my experience." Which leads me to the question: Is this normal for other people? 2 grams of retention? Are other people finding that much stuck in their grinders?


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## DavecUK

@cjhacker23 https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2021/03/23/solo-64mm-elr-grinder-review/


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## cjhacker23

Thank you, @DavecUK. In fact, your review was what convinced me to pull the trigger on this grinder last week. What kinds of roasts have you been drinking typically with this grinder? Have you found that retention has varied, depending on what beans you are using? And how are you finding the TiN coated burrs?


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## logica1one

DavecUK said:


> @cjhacker23 https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2021/03/23/solo-64mm-elr-grinder-review/


 Hello Dave, Yes i read your review last week and it was like a green light for me ordering the G-iota grinder. but i order it with SSP red speed burrs. More specifically I ordered this one.

I dont drink pour overs and i mostly drink 1:1.5 ratio medium roasted espresso. (but sometimes i like darker roasts too, and i want to try light roasts as well)

My machine is the ECM Classika PID.

Unfortunately my depth of espresso knowledge is not so deep as yours, and the money i will spend for the grinder is the last portion of my bank account, so it will be a big sacrifice for me in order to get a decent grinder (to last >10 years) as i currently have a K3 touch 1998 model with 54" burrs.

I will really be grateful for your recommendation of what to do if you were in my shoes. Because I feel lost trying to understand so many different informations, variables, SSP multi purposes vs SSP uniformity, Is SSP Espresso the same as the Uniformity ones with a different name, Is the taste in cup really worth it to go from stock to SSP jump? etc.

Should i stick with my order? Should i cancel it completely? Should i cancel it and re-order a new one with the stock Italmill burrs? (Assuming that i still can do that?) Should i go for a different model? Wait for G-iota V.2 with fixes?

your sincerely,

logica1one.

PS: I live in Athens/Greece if that is helpful to you in case you want to recommend me something


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## MWJB

logica1one said:


> I will really be grateful for your recommendation of what to do if you were in my shoes. Because I feel lost trying to understand so many different informations, variables, SSP multi purposes vs SSP uniformity, Is SSP Espresso the same as the Uniformity ones with a different name, Is the taste in cup really worth it to go from stock to SSP jump? etc.


 Without wanting to sound condescending, or unfriendly, shouldn't SSP be able to answer these concerns? It is their sphere of expertise after all.


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## DavecUK

@logica1one I agree with Mark, I only tested the stock Italmill 64mm burrs and the TiN version of them.

I personally did not find a difference.

I have not tried SSP burrs in the grinder..so I don't know how they will perform.


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## ajohn

logica1one said:


> Thats interesting to read but quite stressful for me because 4 days ago i ordered a G-iota Grinder with the SSP burrs. But in your findings you highlighted that this grinder is not designed to work with SSP burrs efficiently. So what do you recommend me to do? Cancel my order with SSP and make a new one with the italmil stock burrs? Or cancel the order completely and wait for a later updated model or a different grinder?


 Sorry that isn't what I should have said. My earlier posts are clearer really. I fitted SSP espresso burrs and ground some light roast. The grinder choked up and ceased to work. I put that down to SSP burrs so refitted the burrs the grinder came with. Same thing happened with the same light roast beans. Light roasts needs rather fine grinding so it looks like this can cause the grinder problems.

I also used a dark roast. That choked rather quickly from finding and espresso setting from a coarser one. The setting it needed was nothing special. Similar to the medium roast I am using now.

I'm currently grinding a medium roast. Only a few shots so far so pass but retention is ~0.2g so at some point I expect a dose to come out that is larger than the one that went in.

Edit

When the grinder decides to act up retention goes up. May be 1g or more. This is after initial doses where more would expected to be lost for obvious reasons if the grinder has been cleaned.


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## dutchy101

I just made a coffee and did a test. I was using Coffee Compass Mystery blend 14 beans. I gave a quick brush wipe through the top of the grinder and pumped the bellows before putting in 19.1g of beans.

I weighed out and 19.1g came out. I've had the grinder for 4 weeks and this has been pretty consistent for the times I've weighed out expect for the first few days. I'm using the standard burrs that came with the machine.

These are the beans I used


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## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> I have not tried SSP burrs in the grinder..so I don't know how they will perform.


 The only thing I noticed on this light roast is that they need setting a lot closer than the standard burr for the same flow rate. 500g of the light roast all used now. I do have more of the dark roast and also a blend that uses some dark.

What I haven't done is put my oily monsooned through it as I wouldn't expect it to cope.


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## ajohn

logica1one said:


> Is SSP Espresso the same as the Uniformity ones with a different name


 Yes it is. Taste wise on a light roast I would say that they do appear to reduce acidity but I wouldn't say that the particular bean I was using was that bitter. The standard burrs could control it within limits. Maybe from my perspective the SSP burrs removed too much of it. I would have liked to have pulled more shots before it choked up.

These burrs on are said to grind more quickly than say Mazzer but visually and with pop corning I can't really comment on how they compare with standard burrs it uses. Grind time varies on both.


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## DavecUK

cjhacker23 said:


> Thank you, @DavecUK. In fact, your review was what convinced me to pull the trigger on this grinder last week. What kinds of roasts have you been drinking typically with this grinder? Have you found that retention has varied, depending on what beans you are using? And how are you finding the TiN coated burrs?


 I used light to medium dark roasts in it...I don't roast to dark oily levels, so didn't test that. It causes a problem with many grinders though, so I wouldn't expect it or any grinder to remain as clean.

I saw no difference using the std vs the TiN coated ones...of course burr longevity will be increased and the friction will be slightly lower...but I personally wouldn't spend the extra money on the TiN coated ones. Other types like ssp redspeed, aluminium trinitride..I dunno. I do need to go back and recheck my mazzer burrs, because although they fitted the top carrier and the holes were the same...apparently they don't fit on the lower carrier...which means I have to re-edit my video and change my review today.


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## RaulCoffeForum

ajohn said:


> Yes it is. Taste wise on a light roast I would say that they do appear to reduce acidity but I wouldn't say that the particular bean I was using was that bitter. The standard burrs could control it within limits. Maybe from my perspective the SSP burrs removed too much of it. I would have liked to have pulled more shots before it choked up.
> 
> These burrs on are said to grind more quickly than say Mazzer but visually and with pop corning I can't really comment on how they compare with standard burrs it uses. Grind time varies on both.


 I might be mistaken, but they might not be the same. The SSP Unimodal-espresso burrs and the SSP High-Uniformity espresso burrs are different . Both have the espresso "last name" but different "first name":

SSP *Unimodal-Espresso* geometry (Red Speed Coated), previously also known as SSP brew burrs:










SSP *High-Uniformity* Espresso Burrs (Red Speed coated) *NEW option*










It migh be worthy to have a look to this FAQ from Lagom: https://www.option-o.com/faq-lagom-p64

And those are the burrs sold by homebarista.be (sorry, but I am not able to post correctly the image)

https://homebarista.be/en/shop/products/ssp-molen-messen-red-speed-coated-64mm-flat

https://i.postimg.cc/1RW3sJVc/0-E47-A768-396-B-42-E2-BA27-8-A10108-C8367.jpg


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## zellleonhart

RaulCoffeForum said:


> I might be mistaken, but they might not be the same. The SSP Unimodal-espresso burrs and the SSP High-Uniformity espresso burrs are different . Both have the espresso "last name" but different "first name":


 I can answer, I have researched this extensively when I was choosing the SSP burr for my DF64. Basically there are 3 types of SSP 64mm:



SSP *High Uniformity* - espresso focused, good for traditional medium/medium-dark roast


SSP *Unimodal/Brew* - the older/original brew burrs, good for filter brewing,and does not produce as much fines, hence if used for espresso, need to grind at almost burrs touching (cannot be aligned with whiteboard marker test)


SSP *Multipurpose/Unimodal-Espresso* - the Option-O's customized brew burrs, with added flat surfaces which produces a bit more fines at espresso grind settings. Good for filter and light roast espresso (this can be aligned with whiteboard marker test due to the tiny flat surfaces)


You can refer to this link (post #1; and #5 for the Unimodal vs Multipurpose) https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/ssp-64mm-burrs-user-experience-t72553.html

Photo of the Multipurpose/Unimodal-Espresso flat surfaces is here: https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/lagom-p64-flat-option-o-t60117-1240.html#p785077

Yes it's confusing with the names, I am not surprised when people mixed them up.


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## ajohn

RaulCoffeForum said:


> might be mistaken, but they might not be the same.


 They are the same. I am using high uniformity.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Considering you guys have done extensive testing on Solo - different burrs and light to dark roasts, where does Niche stand handling different roasts ? It may have been covered on the Niche threads, but a quick comparison with Solo will be very useful for potential buyers. Thx


----------



## dutchy101

dutchy101 said:


> I just made a coffee and did a test. I was using Coffee Compass Mystery blend 14 beans. I gave a quick brush wipe through the top of the grinder and pumped the bellows before putting in 19.1g of beans.
> 
> I weighed out and 19.1g came out. I've had the grinder for 4 weeks and this has been pretty consistent for the times I've weighed out expect for the first few days. I'm using the standard burrs that came with the machine.
> 
> These are the beans I used
> 
> View attachment 56602


 Posted 1 minute ago

So I've made 3 more coffees this morning. The first 2 were Cherry Cherry from Coffee Compass. 0.1g and 0.2g retention respectively.

The 3rd was a decaf (a darker more oily bean) and I used a finer grind and retention was 0.3g.

Edit. Just made another decaf - same beans as before an weight in was the same as weight out.


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## ajohn

RaulCoffeForum said:


> SSP *Unimodal-Espresso* geometry (Red Speed Coated), previously also known as SSP brew burrs:


 Actually there appears to be 2 version of that style of burr now. Pure brew and espresso-brew.

The light roast I was using was Colombia Villamaria Natural. Oil could possibly figure in the problem I had. All beans have some. At the extreme I drink a lot of monsooned that has been roasted to the point where the beans develop a heavy shiny coat of oil over a period of 3 to 5 days. It's why I want a 2nd grinder but not for this bean. Grinders that can use it take a number of shots to settle down so any time I change bean I have to go through that process again.

I picked the natural on the basis of it's taste notes lychee/white sugar and mandarin. The lychee comes across pretty easily. Mandarin not so clearly for me as I prefer dead fresh on fruits like that not the flat taste they develop over time. So in my case some acidity is preferable. I would have liked to have done more work with the SSP high uniformity but it choked pretty quickly. More quickly than it did with the standard burrs when I went back to them. If this all happened instantaneously I wouldn't have been able to use up 500g of beans. I like the bean actually. I'd buy it again but......

Dark roasts can be a bit oily but I wouldn't say this particular bean was abnormal.

The other bean I have yet to try is a wet processed blend of Papua New Guinea Typica, Arusha and Bourbon some of which is dark roasted. It's one I have wanted to try for some time so bought some. This is the sort of thing I have bought the grinder for.

The bean I am using at the moment is BB's Milk Buster that came with the grinder. I did use some earlier. I noticed that retention can be reduced by spinning up the grinder again and puffing for a 2nd time. I'm just using it as expected now. Retention over a couple of shots has been ~0.2g. I may try it with the SSP burrs but if they do what they should for me it might spoil the beans character.

Niche didn't have any problems with any of the beans I have used but doing that has messed up my monsooned brewing.


----------



## logica1one

zellleonhart said:


> I can answer, I have researched this extensively when I was choosing the SSP burr for my DF64. Basically there are 3 types of SSP 64mm:
> 
> 
> 
> SSP *High Uniformity* - espresso focused, good for traditional medium/medium-dark roast
> 
> 
> SSP *Unimodal/Brew* - the older/original brew burrs, good for filter brewing,and does not produce as much fines, hence if used for espresso, need to grind at almost burrs touching (cannot be aligned with whiteboard marker test)
> 
> 
> SSP *Multipurpose/Unimodal-Espresso* - the Option-O's customized brew burrs, with added flat surfaces which produces a bit more fines at espresso grind settings. Good for filter and light roast espresso (this can be aligned with whiteboard marker test due to the tiny flat surfaces)
> 
> 
> You can refer to this link (post #1; and #5 for the Unimodal vs Multipurpose) https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/ssp-64mm-burrs-user-experience-t72553.html
> 
> Photo of the Multipurpose/Unimodal-Espresso flat surfaces is here: https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/lagom-p64-flat-option-o-t60117-1240.html#p785077
> 
> Yes it's confusing with the names, I am not surprised when people mixed them up.


 so these burrs that will be in the G-iota grinder i pre-ordered are the number 1? or the number 3?

its confusing because if you check the multipurpose-unimodal option they offer and the previous ones that will come with my grinder, you can see they are referring both models as high-uniformity ones! and the same question applies for them too, are they the number 2 or the number 3?

So confusing...


----------



## naturalganja

Suppliers offering SSP burrs are often confused regarding their offerings. I have numerous chats with some of them and they couldn't answer the question about which burr set they were carrying. it's easy to spot the difference between HU and the unimodal, but it is harder to spot the difference between MP and brew. Seems like SSP could have come up with a better name to be less confusing but it is what it is. I haven't heard many people sourcing the original brew burr anymore, not since Option-O asked SSP to produce the MP so they would produce more fines at espresso range but stick to true unimodal at pour over range.

From the sound of it it starts to sound like John grinder is acting up differently than most, head to HB forums to hear feedback from poeple with both SSP burr set, I haven't heard any issue at all and I follow the thread closely. Personally I use extremely light roasted beans with my stock burrs and I have never had any issue beside a partially obstructed exit chute when grinding at very fine setting. However that clog remains in place so I'm always at ~0.1g dose consistency and even less sometimes.

I have also tried to write my very first product review. As a hospitality worker, I had a lot of times on hand (thanks to Covid for that...), @AnthonyTD and especially @DavecUK I have quoted you several times, hope it's ok

https://antoinevautherot.medium.com/g-iota-df64-solo-turin-review-d64e61b8fa4


----------



## DavecUK

@naturalganja You can add a link to it here with a bit of text if you want to.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/articles/articles/

If you don't have access, give me the text and I will do it and pin it.


----------



## zellleonhart

logica1one said:


> so these burrs that will be in the G-iota grinder i pre-ordered are the number 1? or the number 3?
> 
> its confusing because if you check the multipurpose-unimodal option they offer and the previous ones that will come with my grinder, you can see they are referring both models as high-uniformity ones! and the same question applies for them too, are they the number 2 or the number 3?
> 
> So confusing...


 This first link you posted is no doubt the number 1 (high uniformity), the product name, description and video all match.

However the second link is weird, other than the product name contains "multi-purpose", the pictures and description are still High-Uniformity. Just like what @naturalganja said, either the manufacturer confused themselves or they put the wrong picture/descriptions for the Multipurpose burrs in their listing.


----------



## logica1one

naturalganja said:


> Suppliers offering SSP burrs are often confused regarding their offerings. I have numerous chats with some of them and they couldn't answer the question about which burr set they were carrying. it's easy to spot the difference between HU and the unimodal, but it is harder to spot the difference between MP and brew. Seems like SSP could have come up with a better name to be less confusing but it is what it is. I haven't heard many people sourcing the original brew burr anymore, not since Option-O asked SSP to produce the MP so they would produce more fines at espresso range but stick to true unimodal at pour over range.
> 
> From the sound of it it starts to sound like John grinder is acting up differently than most, head to HB forums to hear feedback from poeple with both SSP burr set, I haven't heard any issue at all and I follow the thread closely. Personally I use extremely light roasted beans with my stock burrs and I have never had any issue beside a partially obstructed exit chute when grinding at very fine setting. However that clog remains in place so I'm always at ~0.1g dose consistency and even less sometimes.
> 
> I have also tried to write my very first product review. As a hospitality worker, I had a lot of times on hand (thanks to Covid for that...), @AnthonyTD and especially @DavecUK I have quoted you several times, hope it's ok
> 
> https://antoinevautherot.medium.com/g-iota-df64-solo-turin-review-d64e61b8fa4


 yeah someone on a greek forum posted that review and i read it yesterday. its a nice review!. The question i came up when i saw the pictures are not about the machine but about the DIY WDT tool u made. what kind of needles did u use on that cork?


----------



## logica1one

zellleonhart said:


> This first link you posted is no doubt the number 1 (high uniformity), the product name, description and video all match.
> 
> However the second link is weird, other than the product name contains "multi-purpose", the pictures and description are still High-Uniformity. Just like what @naturalganja said, either the manufacturer confused themselves or they put the wrong picture/descriptions for the Multipurpose burrs in their listing.


 thanks for the fast reply 

I also send an email to home-barista.be for clarification...

May i ask you, since i prefer medium to dark roast ristrettos (1:1,5 ratio) will i notice a big difference with the SSP burrs, or it will be wiser to stick with the stocked italmill burrs?


----------



## zellleonhart

logica1one said:


> thanks for the fast reply
> 
> I also send an email to home-barista.be for clarification...
> 
> May i ask you, since i prefer medium to dark roast ristrettos (1:1,5 ratio) will i notice a big difference with the SSP burrs, or it will be wiser to stick with the stocked italmill burrs?


 You're welcome!

I can't say for sure, but I believe you should be fine to stick with the stock italmill burrs, they are excellent for medium to dark roast. The SSP High Uniformity might have better "uniformity" as described in Option-O's FAQ , but the difference might not be huge. You can try with the stock burrs first and decide to upgrade down the road if you find it lacking.


----------



## RaulCoffeForum

zellleonhart said:


> I can answer, I have researched this extensively when I was choosing the SSP burr for my DF64. Basically there are 3 types of SSP 64mm:
> 
> 
> 
> SSP *High Uniformity* - espresso focused, good for traditional medium/medium-dark roast
> 
> 
> SSP *Unimodal/Brew* - the older/original brew burrs, good for filter brewing,and does not produce as much fines, hence if used for espresso, need to grind at almost burrs touching (cannot be aligned with whiteboard marker test)
> 
> 
> SSP *Multipurpose/Unimodal-Espresso* - the Option-O's customized brew burrs, with added flat surfaces which produces a bit more fines at espresso grind settings. Good for filter and light roast espresso (this can be aligned with whiteboard marker test due to the tiny flat surfaces)


 Thank you for your reply @zellleonhart. I went through the links you shared and I think it is clearer now. Let´s see if I got it:

According to HB.com, post #5

Here are the unimodal vs multipurpose red speeds:










According to Homebarista.be, the mulitpurpose would be these:










It is clear that geometries are different, and this one are more similar to what Lagom calls High-Uniformity Espresso Burrs (*new option*)










It would seem that the title Homebarista.be is using (SSP GRINDER BURRS MULTI-PURPOSE RED SPEED 64MM FLAT) is not correct. As a matter of fact, going through the description (https://homebarista.be/en/shop/products/ssp-molen-messen-red-speed-coated-64mm-flat) you can read: "Increase grind speed and the extraction quality of your espressos with the* SSP 64mm High-Uniformity Red Speed burr set"*

So if I am not wrong, those SSP *High Uniformity* (your item #1) would be the upgrade available at homebarista.be

You described those as "espresso focused, good for traditional medium/medium-dark roast", although Lagom cosiders those also suitable for ligh roast (see TLDR version Lagom posted)










May be it is a minor thing, but what still confuses me is HB.com post #1 (https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/ssp-64mm-burrs-user-experience-t72553.html), that calls the original to the High uniformity ones while Lagom calls the high uniformity burrs as the new option (as of april 2020):

There are 3 different 64mm burr geometry currently offered by SSP:

1. Original or High Uniformity

2. Unimodal or Brew

3. Multipurpose or Unimodal espresso (Brew burrs modified per Option-O's request to create more fines)

Sorry if this is an offtopic.

Edited: Reading the other post that were posted while I was writing this one, this one might sound repetitive...sorry


----------



## Giampiero

zellleonhart said:


> You're welcome!
> 
> I can't say for sure, but I believe you should be fine to stick with the stock italmill burrs, they are excellent for medium to dark roast. The SSP High Uniformity might have better "uniformity" as described in Option-O's FAQ , but the difference might not be huge. You can try with the stock burrs first and decide to upgrade down the road if you find it lacking.


 I agree with you, moreover there are plenty of other OEM burrs compatible ( not verified 100%) that could be lately installed with a more aggressive design as the HU.


----------



## logica1one

zellleonhart said:


> You're welcome!
> 
> I can't say for sure, but I believe you should be fine to stick with the stock italmill burrs, they are excellent for medium to dark roast. The SSP High Uniformity might have better "uniformity" as described in Option-O's FAQ , but the difference might not be huge. You can try with the stock burrs first and decide to upgrade down the road if you find it lacking.


 problem is that i have already pre-ordered (paid with paypal) the G-iota grinder with the SSP Red speed Espresso burrs and i may need to cancel my order and make a new one with the standard burrs, but i dont know for sure if i am able to do that from the homebarista.be. I just need to verify that i will not notice any huge noticeable jump on the quality of my cup from stock to SSP before I ask them for a cancelation.


----------



## ajohn

There are photo's of 2 of the types of burr here par way down the page

https://www.option-o.com/faq-lagom-p64

The brew burrs are very similar to the brew-espresso burrs but the cuts will differ. Google will bring up various pictures of those.

They can also come in several coatings. Red speed, TiN and Silver Knight which I assume is DLC. Also uncoated but those may not be available.

😅 It wont be long before we all need several grinders each with different styles of burr fitted. Actually that is why I chose high uniformity. I am essentially an espresso or in my case americano drinker. It makes more sense to me to go for a master of one style rather than a 1/2 way house and these burrs are used with light roasts.


----------



## zellleonhart

RaulCoffeForum said:


> You described thoss as "espresso focused, good for traditional medium/medium-dark roast", although Lagom cosiders those also suitable for light roast (see TLDR version Lagom posted)


 Yes, the High Uniformity (HU) burrs can definitely still do a good job at grinding light roasts, but the resultant cup it produces is slightly different. The HU light roast shot will have more body and intensity with *some* floral/fruity notes, while the Brew/MultiPurpose will present more flavour clarity while sacrificing some body/texture.

Some people who wants EK43-like high extraction light roast with distinctive flavours, they would probably prefer the brew/unimodal which excels in that.

Anyway, these are mostly what I gathered and understood from the reviews and forums. As everyone's preference is different, you might actually like light roasts on HU more than brew burrs.


----------



## naturalganja

DavecUK said:


> @naturalganja You can add a link to it here with a bit of text if you want to.
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/articles/articles/
> 
> If you don't have access, give me the text and I will do it and pin it.


 I don't have access I believe, or anyway I cannot see where to click to start a new article.

I wrote it all directly on Medium, happy to give you the text if that's easier



logica1one said:


> yeah someone on a greek forum posted that review and i read it yesterday. its a nice review!. The question i came up when i saw the pictures are not about the machine but about the DIY WDT tool u made. what kind of needles did u use on that cork?


 I posted the link to the needles in the review, but they are 3D printer cleaning nozzle needles:

https://www.amazon.com/FENGWANGLI-Printer-Cleaning-Needles-Tweezers/dp/B08PCJZ6SG/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=3d+printer+cleaning+needles&qid=1618003565&sr=8-3


----------



## Giampiero

naturalganja said:


> I don't have access I believe, or anyway I cannot see where to click to start a new article.
> 
> I wrote it all directly on Medium, happy to give you the text if that's easier
> 
> I posted the link to the needles in the review, but they are 3D printer cleaning nozzle needles:
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/FENGWANGLI-Printer-Cleaning-Needles-Tweezers/dp/B08PCJZ6SG/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=3d+printer+cleaning+needles&qid=1618003565&sr=8-3


 A bit OT, but i saw somewhere that even the acupuncture needles are suitable for that.


----------



## cjhacker23

naturalganja said:


> Suppliers offering SSP burrs are often confused regarding their offerings. I have numerous chats with some of them and they couldn't answer the question about which burr set they were carrying. it's easy to spot the difference between HU and the unimodal, but it is harder to spot the difference between MP and brew. Seems like SSP could have come up with a better name to be less confusing but it is what it is. I haven't heard many people sourcing the original brew burr anymore, not since Option-O asked SSP to produce the MP so they would produce more fines at espresso range but stick to true unimodal at pour over range.
> 
> From the sound of it it starts to sound like John grinder is acting up differently than most, head to HB forums to hear feedback from poeple with both SSP burr set, I haven't heard any issue at all and I follow the thread closely. Personally I use extremely light roasted beans with my stock burrs and I have never had any issue beside a partially obstructed exit chute when grinding at very fine setting. However that clog remains in place so I'm always at ~0.1g dose consistency and even less sometimes.
> 
> I have also tried to write my very first product review. As a hospitality worker, I had a lot of times on hand (thanks to Covid for that...), @AnthonyTD and especially @DavecUK I have quoted you several times, hope it's ok
> 
> https://antoinevautherot.medium.com/g-iota-df64-solo-turin-review-d64e61b8fa4


 @naturalganjaGreat review! The paragraph on the difference between retention/consistency/exchange is exactly what I have been looking for about this grinder. It's also the clearest explanation of the difference between the three terms I've read. Thanks!


----------



## RaulCoffeForum

zellleonhart said:


> Yes, the High Uniformity (HU) burrs can definitely still do a good job at grinding light roasts, but the resultant cup it produces is slightly different. The HU light roast shot will have more body and intensity with *some* floral/fruity notes, while the Brew/MultiPurpose will present more flavour clarity while sacrificing some body/texture.
> 
> Some people who wants EK43-like high extraction light roast with distinctive flavours, they would probably prefer the brew/unimodal which excels in that.
> 
> Anyway, these are mostly what I gathered and understood from the reviews and forums. As everyone's preference is different, you might actually like light roasts on HU more than brew burrs.


 Thanks again, I got the same understanding than you did. And now, I believe I can even indetify them by the name... jajajaja


----------



## naturalganja

Giampiero said:


> A bit OT, but i saw somewhere that even the acupuncture needles are suitable for that.


 Yes you are absolutely right!

Some needles offer the same diameter as these. I used to have thicker needles in my WDT but it would end up creating more craters down below than helping.

John from Decent (who has the best direct feedback possible), says that during his testings, he found needles the most effective at 0.35mm or 0.4mm (his favourite, which are the ones coming in their new puck rake).

Here is the video explaining it:


----------



## AnthonyTD

naturalganja said:


> I have also tried to write my very first product review. As a hospitality worker, I had a lot of times on hand (thanks to Covid for that...), @AnthonyTD and especially @DavecUK I have quoted you several times, hope it's ok
> 
> https://antoinevautherot.medium.com/g-iota-df64-solo-turin-review-d64e61b8fa4


 No problem. I was going to ask to have my PayPal account added so that people can "buy me a coffee" but then realised that no bought would not be as good as mine so I thought forget it 😂😂


----------



## bakutumbu44

Hello everyone, my name is Ade, i'm from Indonesia, last week i purchased the DF64 and also SSP HU Burr from local dealer, it works really well, the only complain that i have is the popcorning effect, so i just customade a flow control disc like Niche's NFC, but it doesn't work well because it takes forever to finish the grind. Here's some of the picture of my grinder


http://imgur.com/PXfPFLy

 . cheers!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

bakutumbu44 said:


> Hello everyone, my name is Ade, i'm from Indonesia, last week i purchased the DF64 and also SSP HU Burr from local dealer, it works really well, the only complain that i have is the popcorning effect, so i just customade a flow control disc like Niche's NFC, but it doesn't work well because it takes forever to finish the grind. Here's some of the picture of my grinder
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/PXfPFLy
> 
> . cheers!


 Welcome! Given the rotating speed of the burrs, does it work well? What are the main difference in workflow and tastewise?


----------



## Giampiero

bakutumbu44 said:


> Hello everyone, my name is Ade, i'm from Indonesia, last week i purchased the DF64 and also SSP HU Burr from local dealer, it works really well, the only complain that i have is the popcorning effect, so i just customade a flow control disc like Niche's NFC, but it doesn't work well because it takes forever to finish the grind. Here's some of the picture of my grinder
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/PXfPFLy
> 
> . cheers!


 Hi Ade, thanks for sharing your project, i'm working on a similar solution since few weeks ago, i discarded the "disk" due to the rotation speed of the motor, so will be useful to know if you noted some improvement in the result in cup, compared with the standard version without the disk.

I'm testing something similar since few weeks ago, but i did not make enough espressos to understand if it's worth to further design improvement.


----------



## bakutumbu44

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Welcome! Given the rotating speed of the burrs, does it work well? What are the main difference in workflow and tastewise?


 it didn't work at all to be honest, so i decided to take off the flow control disc and use without it, because i had to push the remaining beans to the hole while the grinder stop, and run the grinder again. About the ssp burr, it worth every penny to spent on it, because it yielding one of the best shot i've ever taste.


----------



## bakutumbu44

> 5 minutes ago, Giampiero said:
> 
> Hi Ade, thanks for sharing your project, i'm working on a similar solution since few weeks ago, i discarded the "disk" due to the rotation speed of the motor, so will be useful to know if you noted some improvement in the result in cup, compared with the standard version without the disk.
> 
> I'm testing something similar since few weeks ago, but i did not make enough espressos to understand if it's worth to further design improvement.


 Hello, with the flow control disc i noticed it produce lots of fines ground than usual, and it chocked my espresso machine, so i decided not to use the disc and deal with the popcorning effect.


----------



## Giampiero

bakutumbu44 said:


> Hello, with the flow control disc i noticed it produce lots of fines ground than usual, and it chocked my espresso machine, so i decided not to use the disc and deal with the popcorning effect.


 Thanks, interesting to see you got an opposite effect with the disk on the DF64, i was expecting that a slower feeding should produce less fines not more.


----------



## bakutumbu44

Giampiero said:


> Thanks, interesting to see you got an opposite effect with the disk on the DF64, i was expecting that a slower feeding should produce less fines not more.


 i was expecting the espresso will flow faster too but it didn't, judging by the grind result with the disc it has more fines than usual and it did choked my espresso machine.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Re nfc disks , how can anyone actually tell be looking the grind if is has moire fines or not?


----------



## logica1one

bakutumbu44 said:


> it didn't work at all to be honest, so i decided to take off the flow control disc and use without it, because i had to push the remaining beans to the hole while the grinder stop, and run the grinder again. About the ssp burr, it worth every penny to spent on it, because it yielding one of the best shot i've ever taste.


 Hello m8, thanks for sharing your results with us,

I want to ask you about the SSP Red speed HU burrs... what kind of grinder and burrs were u using before you get the G-iota grinder? what kind of beans have u used? I am asking because i have been told that with medium to dark roasts with SSP HU vs stainless steel burrs you gain on mouthfeel, but you lose on thickness. (and maybe chocolatey taste?)


----------



## Giampiero

Mrboots2u said:


> Re nfc disks , how can anyone actually tell be looking the grind if is has moire fines or not?


 A good eyesight?☺


----------



## bakutumbu44

logica1one said:


> Hello m8, thanks for sharing your results with us,
> 
> I want to ask you about the SSP Red speed HU burrs... what kind of grinder and burrs were u using before you get the G-iota grinder? what kind of beans have u used? I am asking because i have been told that with medium to dark roasts with SSP HU vs stainless steel burrs you gain on mouthfeel, but you lose on thickness. (and maybe chocolatey taste?)


 My previous grinder was chinese made grinder called Feima 600N, and i also replaced the original burr with SSP HU 60mm, my daily beans medium roast single origin arabica, body (thickness) on espresso mostly depends by the beans imo.


----------



## bakutumbu44

Mrboots2u said:


> Re nfc disks , how can anyone actually tell be looking the grind if is has moire fines or not?


 Fines grind will stick on the dosing cup wall, so i can tell more fines grind by that way.


----------



## Mrboots2u

bakutumbu44 said:


> Fines grind will stick on the dosing cup wall, so i can tell more fines grind by that way.


 I dont find this a very convincing pro proposition sorry.


----------



## bakutumbu44

Mrboots2u said:


> I dont find this a very convincing pro proposition sorry.


 And the fact that the shot that i pulled using the same grind setting with nfc disc was choked, so i can tell that grind size mostly fines grind.


----------



## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> Re nfc disks , how can anyone actually tell be looking the grind if is has moire fines or not?


 I could only tell that the NFC disk reduced the amount grind variance from fine to coarse when single dosing....and verified by testing.


----------



## Mrboots2u

bakutumbu44 said:


> And the fact that the shot that i pulled using the same grind setting with nfc disc was choked, so i can tell that grind size mostly fines grind.


 Again i dont think this points to it being mostly "fines" As DAve above says it may make the grind more consistent but not " mostly " fines " , ie the smallest part of a coffee grind distribution


----------



## bakutumbu44

Mrboots2u said:


> Again i dont think this points to it being mostly "fines" As DAve above says it may make the grind more consistent but not " mostly " fines " , ie the smallest part of a coffee grind distribution


 And fact that 1400rpm grinder not recommended to use nfc disc, because i found it pointless. To grind 18g beans it took 3 cycles of 45 second auto off feature of the grinder, plus i must manually push the beans to the nfc holes while the grinder stop and run it again, and repeat until all the beans grinded.


----------



## naturalganja

Regarding the popcorning, themanufacturer is still in the testing phase with their design. The original picture (attached below) sent by Amanda and posted on HB by LObin could be interesting when completed.

I am still with the stock burr and even though it can make an amazing espresso and the pour overs have been remarkably good, I am looking forward to trying something radically different --> the SSP MP (unimodal-espresso) whenever I can get my hands on it. Reason behind it is I still find (taste-wise), a higher fines production than I would prefer for my light roast (which is pretty much all I drink). It can hard to push the extraction without entering into muddiness territory. That being said I still haven't tried to control how I feed the beans into the grinder, which Dave has been repeating for a while, help in particle consistency. Well I guess I know what I have to do next!


----------



## DavecUK

@naturalganja I have one of those, but not fitted it yet...I'll probably fit it tomorrow


----------



## cjhacker23

That's exciting news @DavecUK. I look forward to hearing your thoughts about the auger and whether it's useful. Granted, I don't even have the grinder yet, but still enjoying learnin about it vicariously!


----------



## naturalganja

DavecUK said:


> @naturalganja I have one of those, but not fitted it yet...I'll probably fit it tomorrow


 Can't wait to her your thoughts on it. I've been thinking and looking for ideas but beside something like this, nothing makes sense to me as there are 2 issues: the speed of the motor, too high for a Niche-like disc, but also the bellows efficiency that would be very reduced if we block the airflow (with a disc or else).


----------



## Giampiero

DavecUK said:


> @naturalganja I have one of those, but not fitted it yet...I'll probably fit it tomorrow


 Finally, really curious to know the result... if the device is the same as the photo....i'm curious twice.


----------



## DavecUK

Giampiero said:


> Finally, really curious to know the result... if the device is the same as the photo....i'm curious twice.


 Me too...


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Looking forward to hear the results of this addition. With this motor, it seems that finding a solution for flow control will be quite complex, but at least this might help with popcorning.

Although, has anyone tried to use a half-disk rather than a single hole like the NFC? This might reduce the anti-popcorning benefits, but maybe improve the flow control with the bigger hole? I'd have tested it myself if I had a 3d printer...


----------



## AnthonyTD

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Looking forward to hear the results of this addition. With this motor, it seems that finding a solution for flow control will be quite complex, but at least this might help with popcorning.
> 
> Although, has anyone tried to use a half-disk rather than a single hole like the NFC? This might reduce the anti-popcorning benefits, but maybe improve the flow control with the bigger hole? I'd have tested it myself if I had a 3d printer...


 I have a 3D printer and know my way around the CAD package a little so happy to do some testing if you guys can give ideas. Trying to get my head around what you ar etrying to acheive. Is it to prevent any "rebounding" beans from flying out (so some sort of lid to deflect them) or are we looking to try guide beans to the burrs like that metal arm picture posted earlier?


----------



## Giampiero

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Looking forward to hear the results of this addition. With this motor, it seems that finding a solution for flow control will be quite complex, but at least this might help with popcorning.
> 
> Although, has anyone tried to use a half-disk rather than a single hole like the NFC? This might reduce the anti-popcorning benefits, but maybe improve the flow control with the bigger hole? I'd have tested it myself if I had a 3d printer...


 With the risk to look like a bit silly....yes i already tried maybe the first day i got the grinder, i'm specialized in recycling gum plastic can😂, but due to the simplicity of the flat surface of the plastic disk the result after many cutting/reshaped disk edge, was not good enough to made me think to continue. But as always, if anybody will pop up with a useful good idea, we will all have a benefit....if necessary. I did my experiment with different "prototype" now just waiting for the mother house device to be tested by Dave.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

AnthonyTD said:


> I have a 3D printer and know my way around the CAD package a little so happy to do some testing if you guys can give ideas. Trying to get my head around what you ar etrying to acheive. Is it to prevent any "rebounding" beans from flying out (so some sort of lid to deflect them) or are we looking to try guide beans to the burrs like that metal arm picture posted earlier?


 My main wish was to reduce the hopper effect and have a controlled (slowed down) flow of beans into the burrs. With the NFC, the issue of having such a small hole spinning at high speed makes it almost impossible for beans to drop to the burrs. If we make that hole larger (half the total surface) I suppose beans could fall down a bit easier, while still retaining a bit of the anti-popcorning effect.

That being said, I'm not sure how effective this would still be at flow control.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Giampiero said:


> With the risk to look like a bit silly....yes i already tried maybe the first day i got the grinder, i'm specialized in recycling gum plastic can😂, but due to the simplicity of the flat surface of the plastic disk the result after many cutting/reshaped disk edge, was not good enough to made me think to continue.


 Would you have an image of that item? I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.

Maybe I should try recycling my used plastic this way as well 😂


----------



## ajohn

AnthonyTD said:


> Trying to get my head around what you ar etrying to acheive. Is it to prevent any "rebounding" beans from flying out (so some sort of lid to deflect them) or are we looking to try guide beans to the burrs like that metal arm picture posted earlier?


 Yes essentially - to stop them bouncing around and keep them down in the burrs just as a hopper full of beans does. There is a tendency to over simplify what goes on when a grinder is fitted with a hopper and that may even vary between different grinders. Some people will only use grinders with hopper - even a dramatically small one. Some even add weights to that to simulate a hopper full.

One approach has been additional burrs that prebreak the beans. The bit of metal may turn out to work as a bean slicer rather than an auger. The MK43's do use a true auger, several different ones seem to be available. The NFC disk on Niche can break beans. Depends how big they are.


----------



## AnthonyTD

What if the disk was more of a cylinder and had a cutout that formed a downward facing ramp (over about a quarter turn or more) This would help move the beans downwards.

Concept below - obviouasly not the final product as there is not way to mount this but just the idea of the deisign:









Coudl also make two ramps - on on each side I guess. Will work on something that fits the grinder next


----------



## Giampiero

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Would you have an image of that item? I'm not sure if we're talking about the same thing.
> 
> Maybe I should try recycling my used plastic this way as well 😂


 if i remember well,this was the starting point.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

@AnthonyTD another idea I was a spiral to control the flow while still fully have an anti popcorning disk, don't know how easy it would be to make, or even if you think it's worth, no pressure 

Idea is the beans should be able to enter more slowly with the help of gravity rather than fall through a hole, from where my thumb is.

The weight of the beans would rest on the disk, avoiding hopper effect.

And we'd still have a full disk surface to prevent popcorning.

Sorry for the amateur image 😅


----------



## Giampiero

The brain storming began...but we should not forget the motor speed.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

@Giampiero for me, this seems to solve the issue of high speed motor. Rather than falling through the hole, beans are "swallowed" by the opening that is on the same level.

Any other effect of the motor I should consider?


----------



## ajohn

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Any other effect


 Yes ideally when they get down there the beans need to be confined to the thickness of the burrs.


----------



## AnthonyTD

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> @AnthonyTD another idea I was a spiral to control the flow while still fully have an anti popcorning disk, don't know how easy it would be to make, or even if you think it's worth, no pressure
> 
> Idea is the beans should be able to enter more slowly with the help of gravity rather than fall through a hole, from where my thumb is.
> 
> The weight of the beans would rest on the disk, avoiding hopper effect.
> 
> And we'd still have a full disk surface to prevent popcorning.
> 
> Sorry for the amateur image 😅
> 
> View attachment 56695
> 
> 
> View attachment 56697


 Easy enough to draw up in CAD however my previous diagram is pretty much that with the exception that my spiral is only over 90 degrees and is solid above and below the helix.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

AnthonyTD said:


> Easy enough to draw up in CAD however my previous diagram is pretty much that with the exception that my spiral is only over 90 degrees and is solid above and below the helix.


 Indeed I noticed the similarities.

Having the spiral over 180 degrees might be good as well. I also think the cylinder might have to be shorter to have it remain close the the bean funnel narrowest point.

A gentle enough slope to let gravity do its job, and an opening big enough to fit the biggest beans. And the flat bottom would indeed keep the bean in the confined burr area as @ajohn suggested.


----------



## boklos

AnthonyTD said:


> So I have come up with a solution to the grind indicator. My solution is 100% reversible, allows you to set the zero and is much easier to see:
> 
> View attachment 56408
> 
> 
> This was 3D printed:
> 
> 
> View attachment 56409
> 
> 
> It is a snug fit on the grinder upper burr carrier but I included the option to add a small 5mm gub screw to hold it in place after you have zeroed it. Just run a M5 tap through the hole that is 3D printed and add a small M5x5mm grub screw.
> 
> 
> View attachment 56410
> 
> 
> Zeroing is simple - just tighten the grind adjustment till you know you are at zero (burrs touching - I manually turn and do not use the motor), rotate the indicator to zero and then snug down the grub screw. Not too tight because you dont want to marr the grinder and also you dont want to strip the plastic threads.
> 
> View attachment 56411
> 
> 
> So where can you get one of these? Well in the spirit of giving I have shared the stl file on dropbox here:
> 
> GrindIndicator
> 
> Please shout if you cannot access it. Very basic to print - you should not need any supports. As I said I made it a snug fit on the carrier - if it is too tight you could try scale it up by 0.5% or just rub down the inside with some sandpaper till it fits to your liking.
> 
> All I ask is that if you do share this please acknowledge me and also I would really appreciate it if you dont try to make money out of printing them.
> 
> I made the arrow intentionally short - if anyone would like a longer one I can modify the cad file and upload a second stl file
> 
> edit: Ok made one more with a finer and longer arrow. I have not printed it yet but here is the model:
> 
> GrindIndicator_Rev2


 Thanks for this! i'm gonna use a 3d printer service online, which material should i pick to print this ? nylon, ABS, polycarbonate ?

thanks


----------



## turkalpmd

AnthonyTD said:


> So I have come up with a solution to the grind indicator. My solution is 100% reversible, allows you to set the zero and is much easier to see:
> 
> View attachment 56408
> 
> 
> This was 3D printed:
> 
> 
> View attachment 56409
> 
> 
> It is a snug fit on the grinder upper burr carrier but I included the option to add a small 5mm gub screw to hold it in place after you have zeroed it. Just run a M5 tap through the hole that is 3D printed and add a small M5x5mm grub screw.
> 
> 
> View attachment 56410
> 
> 
> Zeroing is simple - just tighten the grind adjustment till you know you are at zero (burrs touching - I manually turn and do not use the motor), rotate the indicator to zero and then snug down the grub screw. Not too tight because you dont want to marr the grinder and also you dont want to strip the plastic threads.
> 
> View attachment 56411
> 
> 
> So where can you get one of these? Well in the spirit of giving I have shared the stl file on dropbox here:
> 
> GrindIndicator
> 
> Please shout if you cannot access it. Very basic to print - you should not need any supports. As I said I made it a snug fit on the carrier - if it is too tight you could try scale it up by 0.5% or just rub down the inside with some sandpaper till it fits to your liking.
> 
> All I ask is that if you do share this please acknowledge me and also I would really appreciate it if you dont try to make money out of printing them.
> 
> I made the arrow intentionally short - if anyone would like a longer one I can modify the cad file and upload a second stl file
> 
> edit: Ok made one more with a finer and longer arrow. I have not printed it yet but here is the model:
> 
> GrindIndicator_Rev2


 Tahnk you, Anthony.






It is very useful but I think diameter can be more large 😅


----------



## naturalganja

Seems like the brainstorming is also on in Poland!

https://forum.wszystkookawie.pl/index.php?topic=9296.510&fbclid=IwAR3MXLXWDjuZacumoLjEOJrFu7jNsHklw9gGeZp-0Adq_4jiUgOcizrqMl0


----------



## AnthonyTD

boklos said:


> Thanks for this! i'm gonna use a 3d printer service online, which material should i pick to print this ? nylon, ABS, polycarbonate ?
> 
> thanks


 I think any of those will work - even PLA will. I use ABS just because that is all I ever buy and am comfortabel with it.


----------



## AnthonyTD

> 7 hours ago, turkalpmd said:
> 
> Tahnk you, Anthony.


 What do you mean by making the diameter larger? Are you referring to the inside of the ring where it slides over the carrier? Or the pointer? I am happy to put up a model with a pointer that is even longer if you want? I just did not want it to cover the markers.


----------



## turkalpmd

AnthonyTD said:


> What do you mean by making the diameter larger? Are you referring to the inside of the ring where it slides over the carrier? Or the pointer? I am happy to put up a model with a pointer that is even longer if you want? I just did not want it to cover the markers.











If this thickness is thinner in millimeters, it may make it easier to enter the carrier. I use sandpaper without any problems. I think it is very nice.


----------



## AnthonyTD

turkalpmd said:


> View attachment 56750
> 
> 
> If this thickness is thinner in millimeters, it may make it easier to enter the carrier. I use sandpaper without any problems. I think it is very nice.


 Aaah I see what you mean - I intentionally made it a tight fit so that the screw doenst need to be made too tight to hold it in place. Remember everyone's 3D printer might print bigger/smaller so better to be smaller and have to sand it than have it too big. You can also scale it by 1% when slicing it for printing if you want it bigger.


----------



## Bonson

Has anybody here gotten to try a weber blind shaker as the grind catcher for the grinder? I suspect the large disrance between the plastic cup and/or portafilter holder contributes to the mess. I was hoping to use a blind shaker over a stand or even the portafilter itself to reduce the distance and subsequently waste.


----------



## Giampiero

naturalganja said:


> Seems like the brainstorming is also on in Poland!
> 
> https://forum.wszystkookawie.pl/index.php?topic=9296.510&fbclid=IwAR3MXLXWDjuZacumoLjEOJrFu7jNsHklw9gGeZp-0Adq_4jiUgOcizrqMl0
> 
> 
> View attachment 56747


 Yes, and in the same thread, another member is trying to do a "study" on my latest "whirlpool" device, better to let others to get mad in experimenting☺


----------



## Evan

Bonson said:


> Has anybody here gotten to try a weber blind shaker as the grind catcher for the grinder? I suspect the large disrance between the plastic cup and/or portafilter holder contributes to the mess. I was hoping to use a blind shaker over a stand or even the portafilter itself to reduce the distance and subsequently waste.


 I only have a knockoff blind shaker, but I believe it's about the same size. The distance from the portafilter forks is wayy too small to fit the blind shaker. You might be able to take the forks off and put a stand on the base or something, but I haven't had any issues grinding into the included cup, just might want to cup your hand over the cup when you blow the bellows (even if you don't, I haven't had issues with grinds spraying out)


----------



## Alfieboy

Evan said:


> I only have a knockoff blind shaker, but I believe it's about the same size. The distance from the portafilter forks is wayy too small to fit the blind shaker. You might be able to take the forks off and put a stand on the base or something, but I haven't had any issues grinding into the included cup, just might want to cup your hand over the cup when you blow the bellows (even if you don't, I haven't had issues with grinds spraying out)


 I put a cheaper metal dosing cup into the plastic one so it's closer

Not the best look however

Neil


----------



## dutchy101

Think a smaller cradle to replace the existing one would be a good idea. One that fits a 54 mm portafilter preferably. Sure they'll start appearing soon... I hope


----------



## Bonson

Evan said:


> I only have a knockoff blind shaker, but I believe it's about the same size. The distance from the portafilter forks is wayy too small to fit the blind shaker. You might be able to take the forks off and put a stand on the base or something, but I haven't had any issues grinding into the included cup, just might want to cup your hand over the cup when you blow the bellows (even if you don't, I haven't had issues with grinds spraying out)


 That's what I thought. I'm just afraid as I've seen some static nightmares from some people with this grinder and I live in a high humidity area. Nonetheless I'll be trying out the plastic cup first. I'm eagerly waiting for its arrival estimated at the middle of May. Cheers


----------



## ajohn

Just hold the cup up by the spout. Most goes in then but static causes some grinds to collect on the spout especially the sides  probably better than wearing a dust mask.

The small ball bearings of grinds that can come out are nothing to do with static.

I'd also suggest that people check weigh what comes out and notice of it's continuously retaining a small quantity of grinds.

It's not easy to get an even hump of grinds directly into the portafilter and the hump will be rather high anyway. It can be improved by manipulating the portafilter as it's being filled.


----------



## CoffeeAndCigarettes

Bonson said:


> That's what I thought. I'm just afraid as I've seen some static nightmares from some people with this grinder and I live in a high humidity area.


 Personally, with a bit of RDT, the static is a non-issue for me, and I have to say I REALLY enjoy using the clear dosing cup!

A few shakes in the right direction and I get a flat bed ready to tamp, without the risk of spilling anything. Something that can't be done with metal cups.

An additional tap makes all the remaining grounds fall in the PF, maybe 0.02g sticks to the cup, insignificant compared to the (already excellent) low retention of the grinder.


----------



## Roko

naturalganja said:


> Seems like the brainstorming is also on in Poland!
> 
> https://forum.wszystkookawie.pl/index.php?topic=9296.510&fbclid=IwAR3MXLXWDjuZacumoLjEOJrFu7jNsHklw9gGeZp-0Adq_4jiUgOcizrqMl0
> 
> 
> View attachment 56747


 Thanks for linking this, it would be nice to see if it becomes available for sale. Not sure if you're Polish, but is there any info on that?


----------



## hitsuji

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Personally, with a bit of RDT, the static is a non-issue for me, and I have to say I REALLY enjoy using the clear dosing cup!
> 
> A few shakes in the right direction and I get a flat bed ready to tamp, without the risk of spilling anything. Something that can't be done with metal cups.
> 
> An additional tap makes all the remaining grounds fall in the PF, maybe 0.02g sticks to the cup, insignificant compared to the (already excellent) low retention of the grinder.


 I'm quite surprised that people don't like the dosing cup that comes with the grinder, it feels pretty nice to me, although before I was grinding into a baking soda container that fit my portafilter.

With a dosing funnel, it fits the 54mm portafilter for sage/breville quite nicely for any shakes, etc though the fork is a little low so some grounds to spill out when I use the bellows.


----------



## Giampiero

Roko said:


> Thanks for linking this, it would be nice to see if it becomes available for sale. Not sure if you're Polish, but is there any info on that?


 Not sure if you are Polish too....but even if not, you can use google translate and you will get more info about it😉


----------



## Bonson

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Personally, with a bit of RDT, the static is a non-issue for me, and I have to say I REALLY enjoy using the clear dosing cup!
> 
> A few shakes in the right direction and I get a flat bed ready to tamp, without the risk of spilling anything. Something that can't be done with metal cups.
> 
> An additional tap makes all the remaining grounds fall in the PF, maybe 0.02g sticks to the cup, insignificant compared to the (already excellent) low retention of the grinder.


 Thanks for this. I've had positive experiences with RDT in the past but felt the improvement was negligible. I'm still waiting for my grinder but RDT is easy enough to do that it won't bother my workflow too much.

I prefer not to have to hold the dosing cup while grinding so I can prepare other stuff while waiting.


----------



## ajohn

CoffeeAndCigarettes said:


> Personally, with a bit of RDT, the static is a non-issue for me, and I have to say I REALLY enjoy using the clear dosing cup!


 What static ?? The small balls that are inclined to come out are nothing to do with static. The grinds that collect on the spout are.

There is a problem which I have already mentioned. With some beans the grinder will suddenly decide to trap a gram and the dose will get rather unreliable.


----------



## Ben030

Hi Guys, in german Kaffeenetz-Forum some people removed the flapper (or at least half of it, as it consists of 2 identical layers of a silicone pad). The flapper sits at the exit of the grinding chamber. People claim that it has massively improved the handling. No more endless pumping with the bellow necessary. I removed 1 layer of the flapper, too. But results were excess static problems. So it does not seem to work for everybody. But optimising the flapper seems to have the potential to improve handling. In my opinion, it needs way too many purges to spill out the rest of the grinds to get more or less in=out. I hope a improved flapper will be available one day, or a good dyi solution for the issues (i.e. fitting a flapper/clump crusher from Eureka or so into the G-Iota).

Short version of "how to remove the flapper":

1) remove upper burr carrier (not really necessary, but makes things easier, as you can turn the mill around and let it stand on it's "head" for the rest of the procedure)

2) remove 2 screws from the bottom plate of the mill

3) loosen the nut securing the power-button (from the inner side of the mill, you will see it after you removed the bottom plate

4) remove the screw holding the portafilter bracket in place

5) remove the 2 screws behind the portafilter bracket

6) now you can lift the front plate a little bit and turn it to ohne side, revealing the plastic chute

7) plastic chute is attached to the mill with 2 screws, remove them and you have access to the silicone flappers.

When putting things back together, take the utmost care not to drill in the screws holding the chute and flapper in place too far - they will then reach into the grinding chamber and block the burrs and potential cause big damage to the mill. You can use a little washer to avoid this.

Remember: my personal experience with removing 1 layer of the flapper was that it led to horrible static issues. But for some people it seems to work. Just give it a try if you like. Takes a few minutes and can easily be undone.

Here you can see some photos taken by one of the kaffee-netz users:

https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/g-iota-scheiben-single-doser-zum-niche-preis.136002/page-24#post-1946904

Greets from Germany,

Ben


----------



## Roko

Ben030 said:


> Hi Guys, in german Kaffeenetz-Forum some people removed the flapper (or at least half of it, as it consists of 2 identical layers of a silicone pad). The flapper sits at the exit of the grinding chamber. People claim that it has massively improved the handling. No more endless pumping with the bellow necessary. I removed 1 layer of the flapper, too. But results were excess static problems. So it does not seem to work for everybody. But optimising the flapper seems to have the potential to improve handling. In my opinion, it needs way too many purges to spill out the rest of the grinds to get more or less in=out. I hope a improved flapper will be available one day, or a good dyi solution for the issues (i.e. fitting a flapper/clump crusher from Eureka or so into the G-Iota).
> 
> Short version of "how to remove the flapper":
> 
> 1) remove upper burr carrier (not really necessary, but makes things easier, as you can turn the mill around and let it stand on it's "head" for the rest of the procedure)
> 
> 2) remove 2 screws from the bottom plate of the mill
> 
> 3) loosen the nut securing the power-button (from the inner side of the mill, you will see it after you removed the bottom plate
> 
> 4) remove the screw holding the portafilter bracket in place
> 
> 5) remove the 2 screws behind the portafilter bracket
> 
> 6) now you can lift the front plate a little bit and turn it to ohne side, revealing the plastic chute
> 
> 7) plastic chute is attached to the mill with 2 screws, remove them and you have access to the silicone flappers.
> 
> When putting things back together, take the utmost care not to drill in the screws holding the chute and flapper in place too far - they will then reach into the grinding chamber and block the burrs and potential cause big damage to the mill. You can use a little washer to avoid this.
> 
> Remember: my personal experience with removing 1 layer of the flapper was that it led to horrible static issues. But for some people it seems to work. Just give it a try if you like. Takes a few minutes and can easily be undone.
> 
> Here you can see some photos taken by one of the kaffee-netz users:
> 
> https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/g-iota-scheiben-single-doser-zum-niche-preis.136002/page-24#post-1946904
> 
> Greets from Germany,
> 
> Ben


 thanks Ben, this is helpful. I agree that the anti-clumping seems to be unnecessarily "strong" in retaining grinds.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

With all respect for the enthusiasm and bows to all tireless folks here! ????


----------



## ajohn

Ben030 said:


> Hi Guys, in german Kaffeenetz-Forum some people removed the flapper (or at least half of it, as it consists of 2 identical layers of a silicone pad). The flapper sits at the exit of the grinding chamber. People claim that it has massively improved the handling. No more endless pumping with the bellow necessary. I removed 1 layer of the flapper, too.


 Finally some one has got down to the real problem with it. About time too. it's the only grinder designed specifically for weighing in that block the exit like that. The flaps may take a set at some point and leave a hole for the grinds to go through all of the time but I am not sure if this will ever happen really.

 Another good mod but a bit severe is to take a hacksaw while it's apart and separate the part held in place by the on off switch from the rest. That way the fork can be removed and the flaps got at any time anyone wants to without dismantling the entire thing.  Bigest problem really is what to make a neat cut with.

Static - can't say as I have seen a significant problem. A large loosely held clump or two may appear on top of the grinds in the cups - down to the flaps. Also small rather firm balls of grinds that come out during the grind and finish up and close to the top of the grinds when they are in the portafilter. Flaps again. Some of them can be seen here


----------



## pingpong

Hi All,

I am looking for my first grinder, and has narrowed down to DF64. it has options of stainless steel or titanium coated burr.

for house use, may I know stainless steel or ti coated burr is better choice?

Thank you.

Rgds


----------



## Nightrider_1uk

pingpong said:


> Hi All,
> 
> I am looking for my first grinder, and has narrowed down to DF64. it has options of stainless steel or titanium coated burr.
> 
> for house use, may I know stainless steel or ti coated burr is better choice?
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Rgds


 Hi PingPong

Read @DavecUKreview; In it he says the stock burrs are good enough for home use.


----------



## pingpong

Nightrider_1uk said:


> Hi PingPong
> 
> Read @DavecUKreview; In it he says the stock burrs are good enough for home use.


 hI @Nightrider_1uk , @DavecUK : thank you very much!!!!


----------



## Roko

What I've found lately, but maybe it's because I've started doing RDT and two spritzes is too much, is that the grounds tend to get a bit clumpy, like small grains of rice. I suppose one toothpick would help in breaking these, but sounds like a lot of effort. Maybe I should try RDT with less water.


----------



## ajohn

Roko said:


> What I've found lately, but maybe it's because I've started doing RDT and two spritzes is too much, is that the grounds tend to get a bit clumpy, like small grains of rice


 It does and is a bit bean dependent.

It can also start playing grab a gram during use and the gram can be hard to get out. Spin up again, stop, puff and it usually will come out. It may continue to show small losses with every shot. What's going on then is rather clear when it's opened up,.


----------



## bakutumbu44

Hello again, i've read the post about replacing the rubber flap behind the exit chute, and i put 2 20awg stainless steel wire for vaporizer as a clump crusher, and it turns out works really well. After cleaning the burr i tested the retention for the first grind and it only retained 0,2g.


----------



## Roko

bakutumbu44 said:


> Hello again, i've read the post about replacing the rubber flap behind the exit chute, and i put 2 20awg stainless steel wire for vaporizer as a clump crusher, and it turns out works really well. After cleaning the burr i tested the retention for the first grind and it only retained 0,2g.
> 
> View attachment 57138
> 
> 
> View attachment 57139
> 
> 
> View attachment 57140


 Looks like something to try, thanks!


----------



## zellleonhart

bakutumbu44 said:


> Hello again, i've read the post about replacing the rubber flap behind the exit chute, and i put 2 20awg stainless steel wire for vaporizer as a clump crusher, and it turns out works really well. After cleaning the burr i tested the retention for the first grind and it only retained 0,2g.
> 
> View attachment 57138
> 
> 
> View attachment 57139
> 
> 
> View attachment 57140


 This is interesting, I am intrigued to try it out. Do you think Eureka's clump crusher (linked below) could work? I am not sure of the dimensions and screw thread size, but could be more elegant: https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/eureka-atom-clump-crusher.html

Also, do you notice a lot of static with this mod (with or without RDT)?


----------



## ajohn

bakutumbu44 said:


> After cleaning the burr i tested the retention for the first grind and it only retained 0,2g.


 One shot doesn't mean much. What happens over say 250g of beans is more important. Depending on beans probably exactly the same as removing the rubber flaps completely.

Static keeps getting mentioned. Someone should post a photo of it's effects.


----------



## Ben030

ajohn said:


> Static keeps getting mentioned. Someone should post a photo of it's effects.


 Absolutely right - I have tried something very similar with a stainless steel mesh with about 4 mm mesh size. Results have been massive static issues:










But give it a try - results will vary depending on beans and environmental factors such as humidity and so on.


----------



## Giampiero

zellleonhart said:


> This is interesting, I am intrigued to try it out. Do you think Eureka's clump crusher (linked below) could work? I am not sure of the dimensions and screw thread size, but could be more elegant: https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/eureka-atom-clump-crusher.html
> 
> Also, do you notice a lot of static with this mod (with or without RDT)?


 I tried the eureka zig zag 3 months ago, but in my case the result was not an improvement. I'm actually running without any anti clumping, static is not a problem here since we have 85% humidity😅


----------



## zellleonhart

Giampiero said:


> I tried the eureka zig zag 3 months ago, but in my case the result was not an improvement. I'm actually running without any anti clumping, static is not a problem here since we have 85% humidity😅


 I am in Malaysia with very high humidity too (I remember that you're in Bangkok?) so I think it should work for me.

If you have the time, do you mind sharing a video clip of how it looks like grinding espresso without any anti clumping? If not it's fine, I am going to try out this weekend!


----------



## bakutumbu44

zellleonhart said:


> This is interesting, I am intrigued to try it out. Do you think Eureka's clump crusher (linked below) could work? I am not sure of the dimensions and screw thread size, but could be more elegant: https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/eureka-atom-clump-crusher.html
> 
> Also, do you notice a lot of static with this mod (with or without RDT)?


 I have no static issue because i always use rdt before grinding.


----------



## bakutumbu44

ajohn said:


> One shot doesn't mean much. What happens over say 250g of beans is more important. Depending on beans probably exactly the same as removing the rubber flaps completely.
> 
> Static keeps getting mentioned. Someone should post a photo of it's effects.


 Tomorrow i'll record the grinding with the RDT technique, because i had no issue at all with statics.


----------



## Giampiero

zellleonhart said:


> I am in Malaysia with very high humidity too (I remember that you're in Bangkok?) so I think it should work for me.
> 
> If you have the time, do you mind sharing a video clip of how it looks like grinding espresso without any anti clumping? If not it's fine, I am going to try out this weekend!


 I only grinds for espresso, anyway this is a video.

/monthly_2021_05/594791219_DF64allenbolt.mp4.154cf7c8fce9e1d8d1fb4544d155f466.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment 594791219_DF64allenbolt.mp4


----------



## DavecUK

@Giampiero Why the wierd pot with Clingfilm....or was that so we could see the beans?


----------



## Giampiero

@DavecUK It was not for you, i mean, i did the video for my own use to see the rolling beans....i was in the "anti popcorning period"🤣


----------



## ajohn

Ben030 said:


> But give it a try - results will vary depending on beans and environmental factors such as humidity and so on


 I haven't seen any signs of static at all really with rubber flaps in, 1 or 2. Nothing in and yes but I wouldn't dose a cup as you have - puffs would blow it all over the place. A funnel may help but they wont fit the cup correctly. Curious thing about no flaps is grind setting changed a lot but as expected grinds build up in the spout. I'm out of beans that I can use in it currently but one flap showed signs of being the best option once it's settled down to that. It wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance of grinding the bean I drink most often as it isn't keen on coffee oil.

People can play with this area but get some 4mm washers to take up space when the rubber is removed. Screw ends may catch on the rotating parts if you don't.

Dose always a bit lower than went in after the initial retention has built up - easy to see where that is going when it's opened up. Single dosing should clear all grinds from the grinds chamber once the initial retention has settled. What comes out should be + or - not always -. If it suddenly goes - ~1g and that can't be puffed out expect more serious problems soon.


----------



## zellleonhart

ajohn said:


> I haven't seen any signs of static at all really with rubber flaps in, 1 or 2. Nothing in and yes but I wouldn't dose a cup as you have - puffs would blow it all over the place. A funnel may help but they wont fit the cup correctly. Curious thing about no flaps is grind setting changed a lot but as expected grinds build up in the spout. I'm out of beans that I can use in it currently but one flap showed signs of being the best option once it's settled down to that. It wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance of grinding the bean I drink most often as it isn't keen on coffee oil.
> 
> People can play with this area but get some 4mm washers to take up space when the rubber is removed. Screw ends may catch on the rotating parts if you don't.
> 
> Dose always a bit lower than went in after the initial retention has built up - easy to see where that is going when it's opened up. Single dosing should clear all grinds from the grinds chamber once the initial retention has settled. What comes out should be + or - not always -. If it suddenly goes - ~1g and that can't be puffed out expect more serious problems soon.


 Do you happen to know what's the screw size (e.g. M4? M6?) I plan to get some washers but not sure what size.


----------



## ajohn

M4 -  that's what washers I have used as had some so pretty sure that is the screw size. TBH though this grinder does not compare with Niche and I have my doubts about it ever doing that in it's current form.


----------



## DavecUK

Ben030 said:


> Absolutely right - I have tried something very similar with a stainless steel mesh with about 4 mm mesh size. Results have been massive static issues:
> 
> 
> 
> But give it a try - results will vary depending on beans and environmental factors such as humidity and so on.


 That's a fair bit of the old static Ben ????


----------



## bakutumbu44

Here's the video with removed rubber flap and added 2 stainless steel wires as a clump crusher + RDT.

Cheers!

/monthly_2021_05/VID-20210506-WA0002.mp4.66134d7a04d52847150a351dc5faae20.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment VID-20210506-WA0002.mp4


----------



## Giampiero

@bakutumbu44what burrs do you installed?


----------



## bakutumbu44

Giampiero said:


> @bakutumbu44what burrs do you installed?


 I'm using SSP HU burrs


----------



## ajohn

bakutumbu44 said:


> I'm using SSP HU burrs


 How many dots settings from touching for espresso brewing ?


----------



## bakutumbu44

ajohn said:


> How many dots settings from touching for espresso brewing ?


 Around 11 from touching (for darker roast), for medium or lighter roast maybe 6-8.


----------



## ajohn

Sounds about right but on mine that's below the scale for light. The other problem was this from just one shot of a naturally processed light roast, rubber flaps in. These are SSP HU burrs DLC coated and needed closer than you suggest.









Few more shots and it chocked.


----------



## bakutumbu44

ajohn said:


> Sounds about right but on mine that's below the scale for light. The other problem was this from just one shot of a naturally processed light roast, rubber flaps in. These are SSP HU burrs DLC coated and needed closer than you suggest.
> 
> View attachment 57184
> 
> 
> Few more shots and it chocked.


 Try remove the flaps. Here's mine after grinding around 400-420g


----------



## Giampiero

Ben030 said:


> Absolutely right - I have tried something very similar with a stainless steel mesh with about 4 mm mesh size. Results have been massive static issues:
> 
> 
> 
> But give it a try - results will vary depending on beans and environmental factors such as humidity and so on.


 Don't worry..there is always a solution.


----------



## ajohn

bakutumbu44 said:


> I'm using SSP HU burrs


 Those look like coated versions of the standard burrs to me.


----------



## ajohn

Anyway. One flap rather than 2 seems to produce small clumps that are less compacted than 2. Stirring in the can makes the bean I am using look more clumpy but going on too few shots really time consistency for the same ratio is better than it was. Maybe much better. This is a bean that really shouldn't cause any grief. The grinds show a bit of texture too - much like 2 faps at well over espresso levels. The whole thing as it comes may be ok for other brewing techniques - pass as I don't use them.

No flaps as all just built up grinds in the spout when I tried it. I'd be rather surprised if 2 bits of wire did anything different.

Forgot - Static - what static and I don't believe in watering beans. The clumping is down to the flaps and what gets puffed out.


----------



## bakutumbu44

ajohn said:


> Those look like coated versions of the standard burrs to me.


 Lol i think you must done a deeper research before talking. Here's the ssp vs standard itamill burr


----------



## ajohn

bakutumbu44 said:


> Lol i think you must done a deeper research before talking. Here's the ssp vs standard itamill burr


  Whoops my bad - too many photo's and burrs but


----------



## Giampiero

Just in case others want to try the solution previously mentioned, i found out that the paper clip can be easily used for, so i will give a try😁


----------



## ajohn

On thing I have noticed when flap things are removed and when both are out a finer setting is needed going from 2 flaps to one and again going to none. Some people might find that interesting.

This is the other thing that is going on inside









That's with the beans that came with the grinder, 250g of them. It can build up to the extent that nothing will come out. My best example of that was with SSP and a light roast. Part of the problem was grinds between the 2 flaps. The other may have been the bean which was naturally processed. This is when it starts playing grab a gram with all beans I have used. Problems if that is not puffed out. If it wont for some reason spinning up and trying again usually clears it. Just one flap may stop this happening. The bean I used to run the burrs in was slightly oily but not excessive. Fine above espresso levels but choked completely as soon as I tuned it in - just took 4 or 5 shots.

All a bit sad really. There are several grinders about designed for weighing in. Very expensive but a few things on them are rather different to this one.


----------



## Giampiero

bakutumbu44 said:


> Hello again, i've read the post about replacing the rubber flap behind the exit chute, and i put 2 20awg stainless steel wire for vaporizer as a clump crusher, and it turns out works really well. After cleaning the burr i tested the retention for the first grind and it only retained 0,2g.
> 
> View attachment 57138
> 
> 
> View attachment 57139
> 
> 
> View attachment 57140


 How did you feed the gap between the wires and the chute base?


----------



## bakutumbu44

Giampiero said:


> How did you feed the gap between the wires and the chute base?


 Just the wires and nothing else, i was little bit concern about it at the first time, but i just give it a try and luckily it works without any issues.


----------



## turkalpmd

It is very nice solution, i like it. I have tried today. I have to warn you on a very important issue. It is designed for slicone things. If you are going to remove this silicone, you should not tighten the screws all the way. If you tighten the screws all the way like me, these screws come out of the holes and act as a brake for the carrier. This can be dangerous for the carrier and the motor. This is how I use it right now and I am very happy. I have had better results without the silicone thing.

























Silicon thing held a lot of dust. I suggest removing it, we're already doing WDT.


----------



## DavecUK

@turkalpmd Is the lower burr carrier nut a normal thread, anticlockwise to loosen?


----------



## dutchy101

Am I the only person happy with this grinder as it comes? 😂


----------



## turkalpmd

DavecUK said:


> @turkalpmd Is the lower burr carrier nut a normal thread, anticlockwise to loosen?


 Why, I dont understand ?


----------



## ajohn

turkalpmd said:


> View attachment 57306


 That looks like the sort of chunk of grinds that may well build up in the spout with the flaps out. The flaps just trap a thin sheet like patch of beans same size as the hole in the exit from the grind chamber.

 I've weighed out on several grinders of different designs.


----------



## ajohn

dutchy101 said:


> Am I the only person happy with this grinder as it comes? 😂


 Very possibly unless they have used some grinders that are mmmm lacking in certain things.


----------



## cjhacker23

dutchy101 said:


> Am I the only person happy with this grinder as it comes? 😂


 Haha! I got my grinder last week and was going to wait and use it for a few weeks before doing any fiddling or offering my impressions here, but man. Out of the box? I don't know what I would change! I have been using a few different beans, in the medium range. City+ to Full City. I give the beans a few spritzes of water before grinder directly into the portafilter. Very little retention, that I can see. I am very familiar with these roasts and as espresso shots they are the most beautiful looking pulls I have ever seen and tastes by far the best these beans have ever tasted. I am using the TiN coated Itallmil burrs.

Maybe in a couple of weeks, after putting a few more pounds through the grinder I might open it up and look at long-term retention, maybe do a marker test just to satisfy my curiosity, but at this point? I'm extremely pleased with this grinder, as is, right out of the box and see no need to tinker with it at all.


----------



## cjhacker23

ajohn said:


> Very possibly unless they have used some grinders that are mmmm lacking in certain things.


 I find it lacking nothing. But I haven't been grinding dark roasts turkish-fine and then obsessing about retention and clumping.


----------



## bakutumbu44

turkalpmd said:


> It is very nice solution, i like it. I have tried today. I have to warn you on a very important issue. It is designed for slicone things. If you are going to remove this silicone, you should not tighten the screws all the way. If you tighten the screws all the way like me, these screws come out of the holes and act as a brake for the carrier. This can be dangerous for the carrier and the motor. This is how I use it right now and I am very happy. I have had better results without the silicone thing.
> 
> View attachment 57305
> 
> 
> View attachment 57304
> 
> 
> View attachment 57306
> 
> 
> Silicon thing held a lot of dust. I suggest removing it, we're already doing WDT.


 Yeah i'm not over tightening the screws too, as long they're flush with the holes no issues what so ever.


----------



## Giampiero

DavecUK said:


> @turkalpmd Is the lower burr carrier nut a normal thread, anticlockwise to loosen?


 Yes it is.


----------



## Giampiero

deleted post.


----------



## zellleonhart

I have removed the 2 silicone flaps and did not install any clump breaking wires yet, with high humidity here and RDT it still gives me spraying grinds (lots of static). Not sure if the wires will help more?


----------



## bakutumbu44

zellleonhart said:


> I have removed the 2 silicone flaps and did not install any clump breaking wires yet, with high humidity here and RDT it still gives me spraying grinds (lots of static). Not sure if the wires will help more?


 I don't think clump crusher will reduce any statics, by the way i'm from Indonesia which is a very high humidity country too, but not experienced any statics problem yet. Or maybe the electricity static can cause the problem? (Just maybe)


----------



## ajohn

zellleonhart said:


> have removed the 2 silicone flaps and did not install any clump breaking wires yet, with high humidity here and RDT it still gives me spraying grinds (lots of static). Not sure if the wires will help more?


 I think it's more spraying than static really. I've been using the Niche cup and holding it up to the spout. Most grinds go to the bottom but it's clear some would miss completely of it was lower. When the cup is inverted and the whole lot tapped down twice the cup is clean. I don't recollect any difference using the cup that came with it. Sadly a funnel doesn't fit that well on that.

They way it works does vary with the beans that are being used but only to some degree - the same things happen with all. Dose out always tending to be less than went in. In fact out of lots I have only noticed one where it went higher. It's only small quantities and I have posted photo's where they stick. Small eventually means lots and that will choke the grinder eventually with some beans. Not much is trapped on the flaps or by them. The stuff stuck behind is pretty constant when it's built up which doesn't take long. 1 flap









I took that as for some reason I have had to adjust the grinder when there shouldn't be any need. It doesn't explain that.

Thanks to popcorning the 40sec grind time doesn't always grind all of the beans just usually does. TBH my Mazzer Mini set up for weighing in is quicker and no problems other than the need for a brush to get the last few 1/10g out.

There is loads of air in the grinds so I have to stir in the cup  Too much stirring has proved interesting as it doesn't need a refractometer to detect a large change in EY when ratio and shot time is the same. It shows easily in taste. No stirring shifted the shot from 32g to 50odd in 30sec. Some might say oh grind finer but it's not as simple as that.

The puffer copes more easily with just one flap but it's still a good idea to hold it down briefly before releasing - stops it's tendency to suck the stuff back in. Rather noticeable with 2 flaps. In fact on occasion I had to spin it up again to get the clump out. As mentioned in the review heavy puffing isn't really a good idea while it's running. With HU burrs in particular it might make them touch. I picked a light roast at random that I liked the sound of - it can't cope with them and the HU burrs.

Shimming. Mine needed 0.127mm ( my shims are imperial=0.005") What's that mean in terms of dots on the grinder's scale, rather a lot of them. I reckon 14, some one else reckons somewhat less but not by much. Try adjusting by 1/2 that and see what it does to your ratio. This isn't a problem really as flat burr grinders often need shimming.


----------



## ajohn

cjhacker23 said:


> and then obsessing about retention and clumping.


 I'm not either but the small ball clumps that come out with both flaps in are really rather hard. One flap and some use and that aspect is better.

My only concern is a grinder bought for any bean I might want to try - just a single bag of 250g of them. Providing it will cope with that, give good pours and have decent consistency I'd be happy. As it stands currently I'm not.

More to do yet though.


----------



## dutchy101

ajohn said:


> Very possibly unless they have used some grinders that are mmmm lacking in certain things.


 Just out of curiosity, I would have thought that once people start shimming, removing flaps etc. at that point you've lost your warrantee on the grinder?

Other than finding the burr touching point and fitting a 3D printed grind size indicator, that's all I have done with mine and I am very happy with the results. The retention is pretty much zero or 0.1 to 0.2g whenever I weigh out (after the first week or so of usage).

The coffee I am getting out from the grinder has got far more flavour profiles coming through than my SGP seemed to have although the one thing I am noticing is that my pucks seem wetter with the Solo - probably more down to me still getting used to the change in dialling in with a new type of grinder than I was used to and having multiple beans on the go.


----------



## ajohn

dutchy101 said:


> Just out of curiosity, I would have thought that once people start shimming, removing flaps etc. at that point you've lost your warrantee on the grinder?


 A retailer may take that view but take mine for instance. One of the spout retaining screw holes was drilled right through as received. Noticed when I opened it up and shimmed the burrs - round patch of grinds in it - what's that thought me. When I tried one flap it's why I realised washers are needed to do that.



dutchy101 said:


> Other than finding the burr touching point and fitting a 3D printed grind size indicator, that's all I have done with mine and I am very happy with the results. The retention is pretty much zero or 0.1 to 0.2g whenever I weigh out (after the first week or so of usage).


 If retention is always less it's building up inside. I have had one where more came out over a lot of doses now and take care to get what went in to come out. That one was 0.2g high. Low varies but usually ~0.2g or so but that sometimes needs a 2nd spin up. This is with 1 flap. Say 20 doses out for 250g of beans. That means 4g of grinds inside. 2 bags 8g. Eventually it will stop working. 2 flaps and after a while it will grab 1g and it can be difficult to get out.

I had no problem running the burrs in a bit at a coarser setting than needed for espresso. Unshimmed and ~2kg of beans. As soon as I tuned this bean in it choked up. It took 5 shots to do that.



dutchy101 said:


> The coffee I am getting out from the grinder has got far more flavour profiles coming through than my SGP


 You have moved from a grinder where the burrs will have been well aligned. Also conical to flat. I'd be a little careful about assuming what you are getting is good if I were you. Given that one dot adjustment on the scale = ~10um of adjustment a 0.127mm shim is one hell of a lot. Some of my problems may be down to it producing an even grind. It is giving the taste each bean I have used should have. I've also been able to compare taste against Niche with the same beans. Interesting. Also HU burrs. Also interesting but a few shots choked it up. Trying to use those without shimming would probably not have worked at all or wrecked the burrs due running them touching in places.

Then comes the obvious aspect - why are people fiddling with them? I'm not concerned that my touching point is ~6 dots below the scale. HU burrs may finish up working there. Not good but not much of a problem really. Standard burrs - no problem at all.


----------



## dutchy101

So I've weighed out on my last 2 coffees and the first one gave a 0.1g deficit and the second was bang on. I've taken off the top bur and taken a look and given it a clean up. Noticed there was some clumping around the flaps where the grinds come out so I've broken this all up and cleaned it all out.


----------



## prezes

I've been using this grinder for two weeks now and must say I am very happy with it. Retention is good in a region of 0.1 - 0.3 normally. Sometimes needs more puffing sometimes almost none. I see this as perfectly acceptable. 
the only mod I have just done is the dosing ring - similar idea to Niche's ring which makes the grinds more consistent.

https://youtube.com/shorts/l8JWxM3xL7o


----------



## DavecUK

I have a device to fit, that's made by the manufacturer...I must get around to fitting it, but I don't really want to as I don't think it's great.

Your device is much more like I think they should have made, as it looks like it will actually control flow nicely (I had the idea for the original NFC disk). Considering the higher speed of the Solo, I think your device looks to have the correct opening size to get a very similar effect to the Niche device.

How many marks finer did you have to go once you fitted the device...and how many marks are you for espresso, from burr touching point.


----------



## prezes

@DavecUK I'm still testing but currently set at 2 on the ring and probably about 8-10 marks from a burrs touching safe point I marked.


----------



## prezes

prezes said:


> @DavecUK I'm still testing but currently set at 2 on the ring and probably about 8-10 marks from a burrs touching safe point I marked.


 Just run a single shot on those settings. 9.6g rave fudge blend in 9.4g out. 19.5g out in 34 sec. not perfect but a decent pour and a tasty shot.

https://youtube.com/shorts/kR6AWWhyCUo?feature=share


----------



## ajohn

Things look better after settling down with one flap









 Look carefully some grinds stuck to the outside of the burrs by the sweeper arms and some little peaks by the cuts. Very little stuck to the sweepers. It's a 3 PNG bean blend, 2 medium and one dark aimed at flat whites but makes a nice americano. About 400 odd grams through. The previous 400 produced the usual mess with the same flap. I am spinning up briefly again and puffing again. Sometimes that gets a bit more out.

Not looked behind the upper burr because when I did previously little was getting there. No where near enough to explain the loss, the stuff I could see easily explained that. The gap round the burr is now full of grinds so I suspect no more will go that way shortly and probably isn't now  I don't want to disturb them.

Pours - not happy really so a bit more needed on the grinds. I am a bit anal on that. Fixed 30sec and same out. I find a few g variation doesn't make much difference. It's been pretty easy with Niche. More variation with this one but I have had several within 2g on the trot then it has drifted.


----------



## ajohn

prezes said:


> similar idea to Niche's ring which makes the grinds more consistent.


 The Niche ring didn't make the same difference to all that fitted it - I know one person found it didn't reduce his grind setting. There will be others. It may or may not do that. Seems to depend on the size of the beans so I have spaced mine off a bit.


----------



## prezes

ajohn said:


> The Niche ring didn't make the same difference to all that fitted it - I know one person found it didn't reduce his grind setting. There will be others. It may or may not do that. Seems to depend on the size of the beans so I have spaced mine off a bit.


 I think it doesn't necessarily need to reduce the grind setting in order to improve the grind consistency which is meant to be the main goal.

I have got two more rings and will advertise in for sale section if anyone wants to try.


----------



## Giampiero

prezes said:


> I've been using this grinder for two weeks now and must say I am very happy with it. Retention is good in a region of 0.1 - 0.3 normally. Sometimes needs more puffing sometimes almost none. I see this as perfectly acceptable.
> the only mod I have just done is the dosing ring - similar idea to Niche's ring which makes the grinds more consistent.
> 
> https://youtube.com/shorts/l8JWxM3xL7o
> 
> View attachment 57344
> 
> 
> View attachment 57345


 Good. Is this the ring made by the Polish G-IOTA seller? Do you noticed any taste difference between the shots with or without the ring?


----------



## dutchy101

dutchy101 said:


> So I've weighed out on my last 2 coffees and the first one gave a 0.1g deficit and the second was bang on. I've taken off the top bur and taken a look and given it a clean up. Noticed there was some clumping around the flaps where the grinds come out so I've broken this all up and cleaned it all out.


 So the first grind I did after the clean yesterday, I lost 0.5g from the weighed in dose.

This morning I got 19g out from 19g in.


----------



## Roko

prezes said:


> I've been using this grinder for two weeks now and must say I am very happy with it. Retention is good in a region of 0.1 - 0.3 normally. Sometimes needs more puffing sometimes almost none. I see this as perfectly acceptable.
> the only mod I have just done is the dosing ring - similar idea to Niche's ring which makes the grinds more consistent.
> 
> https://youtube.com/shorts/l8JWxM3xL7o
> 
> View attachment 57344
> 
> 
> View attachment 57345


 It looks very interesting. My only problem is that the nut seems to be very, very tight. I tried to remove it but it was rather difficult.


----------



## prezes

Roko said:


> It looks very interesting. My only problem is that the nut seems to be very, very tight. I tried to remove it but it was rather difficult.


 It is tight. You have to use a large screwdriver to hold the bottom burr and 14 socket on the nut which makes it very easy to remove.


----------



## Roko

prezes said:


> It is tight. You have to use a large screwdriver to hold the bottom burr and 14 socket on the nut which makes it very easy to remove.


 Yes I think I need to get a long screwdriver, physics will help me!


----------



## ajohn

Since cleaning the little bit stuck in shown in the last photo mine is loosing *a bit *more then it was before the clean but I hope it will drop off again. I left the flap as it was even though that should build up again over 4 or 5 shots.

The disc does seem to do something about beans at the end of a grind - before that though - not sure. 2 videos that have been posted

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/uploads/monthly_2021_05/594791219_DF64allenbolt.mp4.154cf7c8fce9e1d8d1fb4544d155f466.mp4






I'd wonder if a more top hat like shaped part that takes the basic shape down to near level with the top of the upper burr would be better.


----------



## Shea

I am a longtime lurker here and had an attempt today at modeling a 3d part to try and reduce popcorning.










Here it is fitted to DF64 (printed as a test in 0.2 layer height, "granite" PLA that I had loaded in printer):










Video of it in action:

(Note: I lost some beans trying to give a view into the grinder! Normally the top would be on my bellows. Usually with these bean and this grind setting I have to run the grinder more than once to get all beans to grind)



http://imgur.com/L9PjJFC


This is V1 but I am no design expert (this was created in tinkerCAD!) so I am unsure if I can do any better.

I would be interested in any improvements made my others.

Link: (As per release licence, no commercial gain is to be made from this design and credit is to be given)

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4858908

Hope people give it a try!


----------



## Shea

Design updated to V1.1:



Spoiler



V1.1:

Pitch increased to 17.5 deg

Larger Diameter: 35mm

Increased flat area diameter for easier fitting with socket: 20mm

Decreased hole diameter for better fit on M8 bolt

Chamfered edges to reduce weight



The centre of gravity is better (but not perfect) with V1.1 so less machine wobble, seems to be working great here but I am interested in other people's experiences.










I have realised that a Google Photos link is a pain in the ass so I now have all photos/videos on an Imgur thread here:



http://imgur.com/L9PjJFC


@DavecUK Could you please remove the link in my prev post to the Google Photo album.

Same Link to download : (As per release licence, no commercial gain is to be made from this design without permission and credit is to be given)

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4858908


----------



## HarryWang

bakutumbu44 said:


> Hello everyone, my name is Ade, i'm from Indonesia, last week i purchased the DF64 and also SSP HU Burr from local dealer, it works really well, the only complain that i have is the popcorning effect, so i just customade a flow control disc like Niche's NFC, but it doesn't work well because it takes forever to finish the grind. Here's some of the picture of my grinder
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/PXfPFLy
> 
> . cheers!


 Hi,bakutumbu4,thanks for sharing your project. Nice try! Compare to the niche zero, I think the main problem is the different Rpm and conical burr. Since the DF64 was the single-phase asynchronous motor, I not sure whether can we use the dimmer to control the RPM? Maybe @DavecUK will give us the answer. Maybe more openness with flow control disc and slower RPM will be good? More over,If we can mod the grinder control the RPM and use the SSP hu,this machine more like lagom P64...aha.,kinda brainstrom,never mind...


----------



## DavecUK

@HarryWang Unfortunately the speed can't be controlled by a dimmer on this type of motor. Even if it could the slower speed would not help....I can't say any more because I'm doing some work in these areas and don't want to share with the Chinese.

Also, as you have found an NFC type disk, increases grind time significantly.


----------



## HarryWang

DavecUK said:


> @HarryWang Unfortunately the speed can't be controlled by a dimmer on this type of motor. Even if it could the slower speed would not help....I can't say any more because I'm doing some work in these areas and don't want to share with the Chinese.
> 
> Also, as you have found an NFC type disk, increases grind time significantly.


 thank you for your answer anyway, @DavecUK I know what u worried about, I just for personal use. I'd like mod the espresso machine and grinder. I am going to add the dimmer but thank u for ur reply, i won't do the wrong thing.


----------



## DavecUK

HarryWang said:


> thank you for your answer anyway, @DavecUK I know what u worried about, I just for personal use. I'd like mod the espresso machine and grinder. I am going to add the dimmer but thank u for ur reply, i won't do the wrong thing.


 A dimmer won't work on an AC motor....you need a frequency controller and even then you reduce power, and they can run hotter. Good luck with it though.


----------



## HarryWang

DavecUK said:


> A dimmer won't work on an AC motor....you need a frequency controller and even then you reduce power, and they can run hotter. Good luck with it though.


 THX, I know what u mean,the type of dimmer (maybe did not called dimmer) I used can control the vibe pump in AC. but my vibe pump machine used PWM based control the SSR like the de1pro do, this way will be better and add the dimmer. yeap,u are right, I should consider run hotter in the grinder.


----------



## Shea

Getting close to the end of my ability here I'd say!

After many failed attempts to redistribute weight to align the centre of mass with the centre of rotation I moved to a helix design rather than a tilted disc:

Some of the incremental design stages (failures!) can be seen here: DF64 Anti-Popcorning Experiment

V2:










Main benefit with this design (other than helix) is the recessed center that allows the device sit lower in the grinder

The recess is a match fit to the taper of the central cone.










Fitted (poor contrast due to the filament colour used):










I can upload a video of it in action if there is any interest in it.

Let me know if anyone has tried any of the revisions and if there was an improvement.

Same Link to download :

(As per release licence, no commercial gain is to be made from this design without permission and credit is to be given)

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4858908

@DavecUK Could you please remove the Google Photos link from my 1st post here and replace with my Imgur link:


http://imgur.com/L9PjJFC

 ? I am unable to edit my post due to it's age.


----------



## HaggisMoose

I was wondering if people using the grinder can tell if they've been having much success with pour over method of brewing. Sometimes i'm finding it a bit hit and miss due to the fines being pumped out I guess.

Aeropress seemed a better brewing method and I got a better coffee from that.


----------



## Chriss29

Shea said:


> Getting close to the end of my ability here I'd say!
> 
> After many failed attempts to redistribute weight to align the centre of mass with the centre of rotation I moved to a helix design rather than a tilted disc:
> 
> Some of the incremental design stages (failures!) can be seen here: DF64 Anti-Popcorning Experiment
> 
> V2:
> 
> 
> 
> Main benefit with this design (other than helix) is the recessed center that allows the device sit lower in the grinder
> 
> The recess is a match fit to the taper of the central cone.
> 
> 
> 
> Fitted (poor contrast due to the filament colour used):
> 
> 
> 
> I can upload a video of it in action if there is any interest in it.
> 
> Let me know if anyone has tried any of the revisions and if there was an improvement.
> 
> Same Link to download :
> 
> (As per release licence, no commercial gain is to be made from this design without permission and credit is to be given)
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4858908
> 
> @DavecUK Could you please remove the Google Photos link from my 1st post here and replace with my Imgur link:
> 
> 
> http://imgur.com/L9PjJFC
> 
> ? I am unable to edit my post due to it's age.


 Thanks @Shea I don't have a printer so will wait to hear others thoughts but looks great. Did you print a new grind size gauge on yours too, it looks different to mine.


----------



## Shea

Chriss29 said:


> Thanks @Shea I don't have a printer so will wait to hear others thoughts but looks great. Did you print a new grind size gauge on yours too, it looks different to mine.


 If anyone tests the design and deem it worth using (I am afraid of creator bias in my opinion!), I might print a couple and send them at cost + postage (from Ireland) to people if I can.

I found a link to a clearer scale design on the Polish forum linked here earlier by someone (in this post). They say that they found the design on home-barista.com but do not give original link to the forum post. (my apologies to original creator that I could not find the original link to give credit)



> Here are the links found on the home-barista.com forum with useful possible modifications: A clearer
> dial with a scale around the perimeter:
> drive.google.com/file/d/1DSTEw1B6vTzvlywxU8TRAr4ox10H5yzj/view


 I printed the scale on adhesive acetate and stuck it over my scale. I much prefer it's legibility.

@DavecUK : Thanks for changing link above!


----------



## Nightrider_1uk

DavecUK said:


> I can't say any more because I'm doing some work in these areas and don't want to share with the Chinese.


 😂, Your'll end up sharing with the Chinese one way or another.


----------



## DavecUK

Nightrider_1uk said:


> 😂, Your'll end up sharing with the Chinese one way or another.


 Fortunately, they copy without understanding....One day that will change I guess. For example they made a metal finger on the Solo, I can guess why they did it, but it won't do what they want. Same with people creating NFC disks for it...I came up with the NFC for a particular reason...same idea, won't really work on the Solo. Flat burrs have different issues.


----------



## Denis S

Dont worry, I have the solution for the g-iota (getting one used tomorrow delivered by DPD).

Here is the solution, easy fix:

reverse the chute 180 degree, so it points forwards, and add 3d printed parts to bind the knife holder with the grinder. For the bean load a 45-60 degree printed slide part is enough.

I also already printed a nice flexible bellows that is much softer than the stock one, so when you press you dont move the burrs.


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> .I can't say any more because I'm doing some work in these areas and don't want to share with the Chinese.


 The biggest problem with it are the flaps. Using one is a definite advantage but my good pour rate has dropped off compared with Niche. In fact while the shot out and time might be ok many are crap and taste can vary when it shouldn't. The problem seems to be mixed compression in the grinds and still some of the dreaded balls. Stirring can make things worse.


----------



## HarryWang

DavecUK said:


> Fortunately, they copy without understanding....One day that will change I guess. For example they made a metal finger on the Solo, I can guess why they did it, but it won't do what they want. Same with people creating NFC disks for it...I came up with the NFC for a particular reason...same idea, won't really work on the Solo. Flat burrs have different issues.


 One thing I had to explain...the metal finger was made by the polish distributor not chinese...I agreed with Flat burrs have different issues compare to conical burrs. @ajohn when I remove the flaps, I had to use WDT before tamping. TBH, there was nothing different when I use the mazzer sj for grinding. And the mazzer sj was more easier to do the clean. I am considering resell DF64 and booking the Ultra grinder.


----------



## HarryWang

Nightrider_1uk said:


> 😂, Your'll end up sharing with the Chinese one way or another.


 I'm not going to use the ring for any more. I think there is NO need to add the ring in flat burrs for home use. No matter share or not, it finally had a way out. Anyway, thank @DavecUK for the answer.


----------



## Giampiero

HarryWang said:


> One thing I had to explain...the metal finger was made by the polish distributor not chinese...I agreed with Flat burrs have different issues compare to conical burrs. @ajohn when I remove the flaps, I had to use WDT before tamping. TBH, there was nothing different when I use the mazzer sj for grinding. And the mazzer sj was more easier to do the clean. I am considering resell DF64 and booking the Ultra grinder.


 Do you mean that the metal finger as in photo was made by the polish distributor and sent to the chinese manufacturer for test?


----------



## mtroy

I removed one of the original flaps of the Solo, noticed no difference, was still having some retention issues, removed the 2nd flap and that was a disaster, static was insane, even with RDT.

So i purchased the clump crusher for a mythos one, discarded the metal part and modified the flap part to fit the Solo, and also bought a disc from Prezes, and while the grind time isn't any faster, there's zero static, no visible clumps, and on average 0.1g retention, sometimes none when i weigh in on the scale after grinding.

The grounds are also far more consistent in my experience since changing the clump crusher and adding Prezes disc, so very happy, i still prefer my Niche, but that's purely down to personal preference.


----------



## HarryWang

Giampiero said:


> Do you mean that the metal finger as in photo was made by the polish distributor and sent to the chinese manufacturer for test?
> 
> View attachment 57457


 yes,but not this one.(the one in the picture below maybe) I've got my grinder one month ago and no ring in the grinder for that's why I come here for solution.i had ask the chinese distributor,they didnt know then ring before I told. but they said the factory may consider add the ring to the polish distributor. the metal ring was easy to diy and cheap in China, thank u for ur guys mod!


----------



## Ben030

mtroy said:


> and modified the flap part to fit the Solo, and also bought a disc from Prezes, and while the grind time isn't any faster, there's zero static, no visible clumps, and on average 0.1g retention, sometimes none when i weigh in on the scale after grinding


 That's exactly what my idea was. The Mythos One Flap is arriving today, and i am going to fit it to the Solo. Can you specify what you did to fit it to the Solo? And what do you mean by "prezes disc"? The polish metal disc?


----------



## Denis S

Some people are not willing to do extra steps of insane puck prep in order to make it work. I totally understand that.

Big flat grinders have massive static, even in some cases with RDT. If for you the no extra step and less mess on the counter is more important, then maybe dont even ever consider flat grinders.

In flat grinders, if you want to limit the bean intake into the burrs, you simply add a printed funnel with a 16-18mm hole inside the bellows, that will limit the bean intake.

To make the retention a lot easy you just do what I will do, You flip the grinder to make the burrs close to vertical, so the gravity does the job.

Remember, this grinder is one of the cheapest electric grinder on t he market for espresso. If we dont consider toys like Sage/Breville, Bezzera b005, and stuff with a lot of plastic inside.

@HarryWang if you are not living in china and can pick the ultra from there, you will order via Levercraft, and because of some problems the deliveries will be made in 2022 (even if you are promised something else).


----------



## mtroy

Ben030 said:


> That's exactly what my idea was. The Mythos One Flap is arriving today, and i am going to fit it to the Solo. Can you specify what you did to fit it to the Solo? And what do you mean by "prezes disc"? The polish metal disc?


 I cut the top flap of where the screw hole is, then used one of the original flaps from the solo, lined it up so the zigzag runs vertical and in the centre of the Solo flap, and punched a hole either side where the screws would fit, and screwed it on with the chute, easy to do, yeah the polished metal discs he was selling, they make the grind more consistent imo.


----------



## HarryWang

Denis S said:


> Some people are not willing to do extra steps of insane puck prep in order to make it work. I totally understand that.
> 
> Big flat grinders have massive static, even in some cases with RDT. If for you the no extra step and less mess on the counter is more important, then maybe dont even ever consider flat grinders.
> 
> In flat grinders, if you want to limit the bean intake into the burrs, you simply add a printed funnel with a 16-18mm hole inside the bellows, that will limit the bean intake.
> 
> To make the retention a lot easy you just do what I will do, You flip the grinder to make the burrs close to vertical, so the gravity does the job.
> 
> Remember, this grinder is one of the cheapest electric grinder on t he market for espresso. If we dont consider toys like Sage/Breville, Bezzera b005, and stuff with a lot of plastic inside.
> 
> @HarryWang if you are not living in china and can pick the ultra from there, you will order via Levercraft, and because of some problems the deliveries will be made in 2022 (even if you are promised something else).


 THX！！！After suffering a lot，definitely agreed with u！Extra step still needed at home. NO shortcut indeed. I understand what u mean，it maybe the best solution for the flag burrs！my friend had got the ultra last week，i am going to Rob his grinder later and decide whether to buy，aha！！！


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> Some people are not willing to do extra steps of insane puck prep in order to make it work. I totally understand that.
> 
> Big flat grinders have massive static, even in some cases with RDT. If for you the no extra step and less mess on the counter is more important, then maybe dont even ever consider flat grinders.
> 
> In flat grinders, if you want to limit the bean intake into the burrs, you simply add a printed funnel with a 16-18mm hole inside the bellows, that will limit the bean intake.
> 
> To make the retention a lot easy you just do what I will do, You flip the grinder to make the burrs close to vertical, so the gravity does the job.
> 
> Remember, this grinder is one of the cheapest electric grinder on t he market for espresso. If we dont consider toys like Sage/Breville, Bezzera b005, and stuff with a lot of plastic inside.
> 
> @HarryWang if you are not living in china and can pick the ultra from there, you will order via Levercraft, and because of some problems the deliveries will be made in 2022 (even if you are promised something else).


 That is one of the most misleading posts I have ever seen in my life. For instance 1g gravity extra against 30 odd centrifugal getting grinds out of the grinder.


----------



## Denis S

@ajohnmisleading?

So is eg1/monolith max/bentwood/ek43 all those flat grinders misleading cause they use a major tilt to vertical in some cases to do what exactly? cause they look cool?

The gunk that builds up at a chute will fall off more easily and the grind will be evacuated more efficient by the carrier, if the grinder is oriented vertically.


----------



## Alex_L

I've had a solo for a couple of months now following my trusty vario dying. I bought it as I needed a grinder and fancied a go at single dosing and all the other single dosers of note seemed to require long waits. It was intended as a interim purchase to test whether I liked single dosing having played a bit with over the years on the vario. It's been paired with a Lelit Bianca and I don't have a particularly sophisticated palette but know what I like.

My experience so far has been very positive. It seems well built albeit clearly to a price in terms of the finish. It's more consistent than the vario and the annoyances like grind settings drifting and switching between beans being inconsistent don't seem to. I get great espresso from the bianca and I can definitely taste more of the notes in the coffees I've drunk thus far alongside having fewer bad drinks. I've found weighing in and out to be consistent but recognise this doesn't take account of exchange.

The downside I've found thus far is when experimenting with flow profiling and very long low flow pre-infusions that require a very fine grind (0-5 on the dial) seem to cause a blockage at the exit of the burr chamber meaning the bellows do nothing. The only way around this seems to change to a much coarser grind and then grinding through some beans to clear the trapped grinds. This seems particularly to happen with decaf beans so I'm following with interest the mods people are trialling around the chute.

I think i'll be keeping it but I've always fancied a weber grinder and the key grinder is looking tempting.


----------



## naturalganja

Saw this on HB, @Kran designed the first one and @Ben_30 improved it. it's a funnel that fits in the bellow, goal is to reduce popcorning as well as slowing down feeding rate a little

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4861909


----------



## Denis S

Got it today (second hand did grind 1 kg) with papers and warranty left.

First impressions are good, you get a lot for little money. it feels sturdy, it's really small, if you remove the bellows its the same size as Niche or Lagom.

No retention if you use the bellows and RDT. There is a plug of coffee forming behind the silicone chute flapper, but if you use the bellows it comes out and you can feel it cause the bellows goes easier down.

The grinder is not aligned, but it's okay, you can use it stock like that. I grind on Decent at 1-1.5 light roasted coffee.

Here is how you check alignment really fast.

https://streamable.com/tfsjhq

I will play a few days with it stock, and then see what I do, it's just a project anyway, no upgrade or long period keep for me.


----------



## Ben030

naturalganja said:


> Saw this on HB, @Kran designed the first one and @Ben_30 improved it. it's a funnel that fits in the bellow, goal is to reduce popcorning as well as slowing down feeding rate a little
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4861909


 In the meantime, i have made some small improvements. The new version is closed on the bottom side now, prints faster, doesn't need support while printing and has a 22.5 mm opening (old version was 25 mm) which reduces popcorning more efficiently. I found that making the opening smaller than this leads to beans jamming the funnel. So this will be the final version in terms of funnel size. Here you can see a video of the updated version during the grinding process:






Updated STL File will be uploaded tonight.


----------



## RaulCoffeForum

> 57 minutes ago, Ben030 said:
> 
> In the meantime, i have made some small improvements. The new version is closed on the bottom side now, prints faster, doesn't need support while printing and has a 22.5 mm opening (old version was 25 mm) which reduces popcorning more efficiently. I found that making the opening smaller than this leads to beans jamming the funnel. So this will be the final version in terms of funnel size. Here you can see a video of the updated version during the grinding process:


 Hi @Ben030, thanks so much for your effort and for sharing! It looks really nice.


----------



## RaulCoffeForum

> 1 hour ago, Ben030 said:
> 
> In the meantime, i have made some small improvements. The new version is closed on the bottom side now, prints faster, doesn't need support while printing and has a 22.5 mm opening (old version was 25 mm) which reduces popcorning more efficiently. I found that making the opening smaller than this leads to beans jamming the funnel. So this will be the final version in terms of funnel size. Here you can see a video of the updated version during the grinding process:


 BTW, any thought on making sure all the beans make it through the funnel? You can see in the video that litttl rebel bean....

PS: I tried to edit my previous post to avoid duplicate post, but it won´t let me...


----------



## Ben030

RaulCoffeForum said:


> BTW, any thought on making sure all the beans make it through the funnel? You can see in the video that litttl rebel bean....
> 
> PS: I tried to edit my previous post to avoid duplicate post, but it won´t let me...


 Yeah actually there was one bean stuck. This did not happen with the other few Shots i have pulled. I will observe this over the next few days, and if it continues to occur, modify the funnel.


----------



## RaulCoffeForum

Ben030 said:


> Yeah actually there was one bean stuck. This did not happen with the other few Shots i have pulled. I will observe this over the next few days, and if it continues to occur, modify the funnel.


 Hopefully it is just a one time thing! I´ll be paying attention to the updates! Thanks again


----------



## Ben030

Here you can find V2 of the Funnel:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4863492


----------



## HarryWang

Ben030 said:


> Here you can find V2 of the Funnel:
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4863492


 @Ben030, thanks a million for your effort and sharing! I gonna print it and give u the feedback later. I dont worried the bean stuck, sometimes the extra step may gain more fun...LOL


----------



## ajohn

Ben030 said:


> In the meantime, i have made some small improvements.


 You have made an improvement with that. Ideally though a much lower burr carrier profile would be even better.. Don't forget beans sizes vary. I'm currently using some that are ~16mm long. The disk that comes with Niche doesn't account for that and smaller in terms of the spacing between the burrs and the disk.



Alex_L said:


> The downside I've found thus far is when experimenting with flow profiling and very long low flow pre-infusions that require a very fine grind (0-5 on the dial) seem to cause a blockage at the exit of the burr chamber meaning the bellows do nothing.


 It seems to be a general tend, more with some beans than others and at coarser settings. Main thing I found was firm use of the bellow and not releasing those too soon. Also if it wont budge a short 2nd spin up helps.

Build up on the end of the sweepers is also another problem with it. Depends on how much. The angle on the sweeper ends probably doesn't help. To me several things about it suggest designed by thought experiment rather than practicalities. Also various proportions may be a little beyond China's experience levels.

Static levels don't seem particularly high to me. Niche places the top of the grinds cup much closer to the spout. That helps a lot in terms of getting grinds in the right place. Pity they didn't think about that when designing the cup. I've been holding Niche's cup up to it. No problem getting all grinds and any on the sides out and no significant signs of static clumping, more flaps orientated problems.

TBH Having put many Kg through one it doesn't match up with a Mazzer Mini with a Mazzer funnel on in terms of grinding performance but that needs a brush to get the last few 1/10g out. There is no real reason why it shouldn't be as good other than low levels of motor balance might upset things like SSP burrs when they have to be very closely spaced.


----------



## ajohn

Ben030 said:


> Here you can find V2 of the Funnel:


 Do you know what the included angle of the built in funnel is - the angle your funnel fits in.


----------



## HarryWang

Ben030 said:


> Here you can find V2 of the Funnel:
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4863492


 @Ben030 The V2 model worked well. GOOD JOB！I also considered the "hopper" in the upper part of the funnel, but this model seems good enough indeed. I am trying to design the hopper, my idea is Arc type hopper with tripod. Meanwhile, I think we should consider the influence of the hopper to the bellow.


----------



## HarryWang

HarryWang said:


> @Ben030 The V2 model worked well. GOOD JOB！I also considered the "hopper" in the upper part of the funnel, but this model seems good enough indeed. I am trying to design the hopper, my idea is Arc type hopper with tripod. Meanwhile, I think we should consider the influence of the hopper to the bellow.
> 
> View attachment 57578


 I've made the combination （pic below，the height of the tripod was 20 mm, I'm not sure if it is reasonable，print it and test later. I'd like to sent you the model if you want. Anyway,thanks for you effort!


----------



## Ben030

HarryWang said:


> I've made the combination [...]


 Looks very interesting! Question is if printing will work, because the disc will need support structures underneath it while printing. But nice idea! I have also made an approach combining some kind of disc and a "funnel". It is more like a ring. Will post it here later on. I have also made a lid for the bellow, with a funnel on it. So beans can be filled in without removing the lid, and pumping the bellow still works fine. You can even start the grinder and fill the beans into the running grinder, which I really like. Gonna post this mod later on, attached you can see photos.


----------



## Ben030

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4866236

The part is online, the lid for the bellow is also linked in the above thing.

I have also made a modified holder for the dosing cup. It ist not perfectly fitted yet, but works. It reduces the mess on the counter. The dosing cup comes much closer to the spout:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4867751


----------



## Denis S

What happens if the thin parts break and the middle part falls between the burrs?


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> What happens if the thin parts break and the middle part falls between the burrs?


 😅 You can try a plastic espresso. But why would it break?

Some one posted a better idea to limit pop corning. It also speeds up grinding - a very good sign that it is achieving something. Biggest problem really, maybe - is it best to spend money on a better grinder rather than buy a 3D printer as well. I don't have one. However good weighing in grinders are rather limited in the lower price range.

Whoops Maybe this one does too.


----------



## Denis S

I'm pointing out some weak parts into the design, I know what a anti popcorn disk is, and I do 3d design too. The beans can push against it and it can just crack, it seems really slim.

I have the g-iota for 5-10 days now, I did align it a bit better using my method and I grind at ~ 20 on decent, before the alignment I would grind at 10-12. You grind finer on a Decent compared to other machines.

I use it less and less because I do not like the taste, muddy and powdery, flavors are there but not holding and changing too much when shot cools dowd compared to my other grinders. Already tested the unimodal 64mm burrs on 2 others grinders and i'm not sure I want to drop 200 euro for burrs to put into the g-iota.

But for the money I dont see another option.


----------



## RaulCoffeForum

Ben030 said:


> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4866236
> 
> The part is online, the lid for the bellow is also linked in the above thing.
> 
> I have also made a modified holder for the dosing cup. It ist not perfectly fitted yet, but works. It reduces the mess on the counter. The dosing cup comes much closer to the spout:
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4867751


 Thanks so much!! So the final popcorning solution would be:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4866236

¿And the following one is https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4863492 is no longer needed?


----------



## naturalganja

Denis S said:


> I have the g-iota for 5-10 days now, I did align it a bit better using my method and I grind at ~ 20 on decent, before the alignment I would grind at 10-12. You grind finer on a Decent compared to other machines.
> 
> I use it less and less because I do not like the taste, muddy and powdery, flavors are there but not holding and changing too much when shot cools dowd compared to my other grinders.


 I recommend you to keep seasoning the burrs. I was where you are now and felt like this grinder just couldn't produce the balanced shots I was after. Turns out it can, but I achieved concistency probably around the 10-15 lbs mark. Before that, sometimes I litterally had both, sour and bitter notes, so pretty challenging to dial in! I couldn't push any extraction beyond 30 sec (I'm on a 46mm PF so for me extraction usually range 35-55 sec). Now I really don't have that issue anymore and my shots are balanced. I am still waiting on my supplier to receive the MP SSP as I still want more clarity in my light roast than the stock burrs can offer


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> I know what a anti popcorn disk is, and I do 3d design too. The beans can push against it and it can just crack, it seems really slim.


 The disk wont work on a flat burr grinder. The better one I mentioned is a sort of funnel to put in the grinders funnel with a certain sized hole in it. The poster linked to the file. Also posted a video showing the beans disappearing and no pop corning. Only problem really is to make this approach 100% effective some parts of the grinder need modifying.

In terms of grinding one rubber flap is an improvement over the 2 that it comes fitted with it but washers are needed under the spout fixing screws to replace the thickness lost by removing one. Then it's a case of persisting with it for a while.

Then comes the final problem that may relate to pop corning. The compression in the grinds is weird and a little tricky to do anything about it. 2 flaps makes this worse and throws in small rather hard balls of grinds.

The duplication of a typical hopper bottom you referred to a flimsy - unlikely to achieve anything.


----------



## Ben030

RaulCoffeForum said:


> Thanks so much!! So the final popcorning solution would be:
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4866236
> 
> ¿And the following one is https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4863492 is no longer needed?


 There are two different approaches to reduce popcorning.

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4863492

works very well and it will probably be sturdier than the other solution which i made a few days later:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4866236

it is more like a matter of favor. At the moment, I am switching between both solutions, and both work really well. If I had to pick one, it would probably be the thing I mentioned first (the funnel).


----------



## ajohn

Ben030 said:


> There are two different approaches to reduce popcorning.
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4863492
> 
> works very well and it will probably be sturdier than the other solution which i made a few days later:
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4866236
> 
> it is more like a matter of favor. At the moment, I am switching between both solutions, and both work really well. If I had to pick one, it would probably be the thing I mentioned first (the funnel).


 Shimming can matter as well. Mine needed 0.005" / 0.127mm. Not a lot some might think but I am currently grinding with the burrs ~0.120mm apart which isn't particularly fine. The results would be appalling without the shim and consistency is still rather lacking compared with the  well known alternative.


----------



## RaulCoffeForum

Ben030 said:


> There are two different approaches to reduce popcorning.
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4863492
> 
> works very well and it will probably be sturdier than the other solution which i made a few days later:
> 
> https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4866236
> 
> it is more like a matter of favor. At the moment, I am switching between both solutions, and both work really well. If I had to pick one, it would probably be the thing I mentioned first (the funnel).


 Thanks!


----------



## Denis S

Seasoned more the grinder (I got it second hand and the guy told me he used it for 1-2 kg of coffee. It was not much used because it even had the plastic protection on the dial ring not removed.

My grinder is stock, I have a lot of experience with grinders, and had/tested at my home over 20 of them. Many ssp burrs, and aligned.

This grinder, judging by the grind, will behave well in faster flowing shots, with a peak of 5-7 bar not 8-10 bar. It works with lighter roasts too, you will have to adjust the dose to your machine/liking. Because it grinds finer, you need perfect puck prep. I grind into the plastic cup, shake it, transfer, WDT with 0.3mm needles, the hog (93 piece x 0.6mm needles) tap, bplus on top and fast extraction 15-25 sec max for more than 1-2 ratio.


----------



## HarryWang

According to @Ben030 's design, I added a hopper in the funnel , I've print it and it worked well,too.

The part is online:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4870799



ajohn said:


> 😅 You can try a plastic espresso. But why would it break?


 If my thin parts break, I may try a resin espresso with a long time preinfusion. haha, brand new favor...


----------



## ZeljkoBG

ajohn said:


> What's yours?


 I'm very smart, because I wouldn't buy a Chinese thing for more than 5 euros. They don't know how to make a toy without ruining it after 30 days. They don't know they're making a car without burrowing in 2 years. In my city, Chinese buses (HIGER) are as good as their toys.

To give 500 euros to a Chinese mill and for the same money not to buy a mill produced in the EU is not intelligent. Just wait until it starts to break and shoot plastic.


----------



## MWJB

ZeljkoBG said:


> I'm very smart, because I wouldn't buy a Chinese thing for more than 5 euros. They don't know how to make a toy without ruining it after 30 days. They don't know they're making a car without burrowing in 2 years. In my city, Chinese buses (HIGER) are as good as their toys.
> 
> To give 500 euros to a Chinese mill and for the same money not to buy a mill produced in the EU is not intelligent. Just wait until it starts to break and shoot plastic.


 Can you list the EU manufactured grinders that are single dose, 64mm flat burrs for 500Euros?

Many domestic brand names take advantage of Asian manufacturing costs.


----------



## 4085

ZeljkoBG said:


> I'm very smart, because I wouldn't buy a Chinese thing for more than 5 euros. They don't know how to make a toy without ruining it after 30 days. They don't know they're making a car without burrowing in 2 years. In my city, Chinese buses (HIGER) are as good as their toys.
> 
> To give 500 euros to a Chinese mill and for the same money not to buy a mill produced in the EU is not intelligent. Just wait until it starts to break and shoot plastic.


 Welcome...... a lot of people did not buy direct, but through Bella barista. This gives them a full UK 2 year warranty and peace of mind of a well respecter retailer


----------



## Denis S

ZeljkoBG said:


> I'm very smart, because I wouldn't buy a Chinese thing for more than 5 euros. They don't know how to make a toy without ruining it after 30 days. They don't know they're making a car without burrowing in 2 years. In my city, Chinese buses (HIGER) are as good as their toys.
> 
> To give 500 euros to a Chinese mill and for the same money not to buy a mill produced in the EU is not intelligent. Just wait until it starts to break and shoot plastic.


 And you know why this happens in Bg? same as other balkanic corrupted countries? because they always chase the cheapest price. do you feel like this grinder at 350-400 E it's the cheapest electric grinder produced in China?

Have you seen a Xeoleo 64mm electric grinder at 120 euro ? No offence, I am from Romania but I dont live there, and I know exactly what you mean and had the same mentality as you 5-10 years ago. Take for example mahlkonig x54 it's under 500 euro. Do you think the plastic on it will be better just because it's not made in PRC?

your phone, your tv, your clothes are all made there. Even if you buy a really expensive machine, such as a Marzocco gs3, many many parts are imported from countries where labor is or was cheaper. It will say manufactured/handmade in Firenze, but in reality a lot of parts are made in China on a 6-7k euro machine.


----------



## Roko

What is perfectly appropriate (and I would argue, correct) to say: DF64 is a product that is rough around the edges.

What was said is just needlessly racist and close minded.


----------



## ZeljkoBG

@MWJB What important requirements! "single dose", then "64mm flat burrs". Amazing features 😄 
100 times better mill

@dfk41 and when they pass two years... then they will cry 🤣

@HarryWang another falsehood. The iPhone is produced by the American standard. The Volkswagen pasat is produced in China, but there is still a German quality. Do you have a Chinese car better than Pasat? No.
German technology and the workforce of Chinese. The point.


----------



## HarryWang

By the way,Niche zero was MADE IN PRC，u can meet the ppls all around here,Sir.


----------



## MWJB

ZeljkoBG said:


> @MWJB What important requirements! "single dose", then "64mm flat burrs". Amazing features 😄
> 100 times better mill


 Niche already has it's own forum section & is much discussed. It costs more than 500Euros. It is currently made in China.

What requirement can make a grinder 100x better? If a grinder functions normally it can be faster/slower, a little wider/narrower in distribution, better/worse dose consistency. Add all these parameters together & I still don't see how a functioning grinder can tangibly be 100x better than another.


----------



## ZeljkoBG

@*HarryWang *small earnings, cheap production and therefore a real China. EU or US quality. Don't convince me of the Chinese quality.

PS: I don't comment on Chinese products anymore.


----------



## DavecUK

I removed some comments about IQ, which I didn't feel were exactly helpful to the conversation. Please, lets not be personal. As for Chinese production and quality standards, these vary depending on product factory and cost. I think unless people really know what they are talking about...it's very dangerous to make assumptions, just because a product is made in China.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

My new (3/12 old) Tesla model 3 was amongst the first Made In China models brought to the UK. There's a general consensus that the MIC models are consistently better-built than the American made versions. Make of that what you will!

..


----------



## HarryWang

DavecUK said:


> I removed some comments about IQ, which I didn't feel were exactly helpful to the conversation. Please, lets not be personal. As for Chinese production and quality standards, these vary depending on product factory and cost. I think unless people really know what they are talking about...it's very dangerous to make assumptions, just because a product is made in China.


 Thx Sir，I Don't mean Chinese production is always good, but I think that the quality of the product should not be measured in any country, as you said, the problem of the factory. I am also the df64 user and come here to discuss how to improve the grinder, and I also share my experience.


----------



## Giampiero

Wow...at least the guy revitalized this "sleeping" thread, now we can back to the annoying debate about popcorning, retention, consistency, exchange, burr alignment, bean funnel modifications etc etc🤣


----------



## ajohn

Roko said:


> What is perfectly appropriate (and I would argue, correct) to say: DF64 is a product that is rough around the edges.


 I would say it's a sort of opportunist grinder due to a small group of people producing a weighing in grinder that has achieved in excess of £10,000,000 sales turn over and still has a number of people who want to buy one. Why's that. Simple really. It works as it should and is hard to knock in any respect functionally and had sufficient work put into making it do that.

This one is a leaning collection of standard grinder bits and ideas that probably went from a drawing board straight into production that functionally has several issues some of which are purely down to how it's been designed. Against that there are a number of flat burr weighing in grinders that cost rather a lot of money that needn't if produced as the Solo has been. No puffers as well but adding them to these may at some point prove popular down to peoples expectations. That's happened in a different way on modified Mazzers - grinders must have spouts when those covert far more usefully when a funnel is used but a brush is needed.

One thing I found interesting about this one was running it in. At a setting of ~25 circa 200g of beans produced nearly 1L of grinds over 2kg of beans without any problems. The grinds had a rather odd texture to them  forcing them through an X. I don't use pour over etc, might be ok. Same bean at espresso levels choked it up very very quickly.


----------



## Ben030

I have fitted the Mythos One clump crusher into the DF-64 in the meantime. It was quite easy to do. See the attached photos. I just needed additional screw holes on the left and on the right side. I also cut away a 1 mm strip of the plastic next to the holes to make it a little bit more narrow. This would not have been necessary, actually next time i will leave it as it is, it fits into the grinder without cutting.

What is not in the photo, is a small 3 D printed part i made to fill the gaps that the silicone flapper normally blocks. Without it, ground coffee will find its way through and will not be transported into the spout.

With this modification, the grinder has very little retention WITHOUT purging. There is a difference of about 0.2 grams between input and output. The downside is, that there is static. Not as much as without flappers or using 1 layer of the original flappers. RDT is necessary.

The Grinder produces very fluffy and completely clumpfree grinds now. I had to grind about 5 marks finer with the modded flapper, I do not understand why. But there is enough space left to go finer, about 20 steps till burrs touch in my case.

If anyone is interested to try this out, i can upload the stl file for the part that replaces the original flapper.


----------



## naturalganja

I'm curious, with all the mods being made to the clumping plates, do you guys still have grounds accumulating before the plate at the entrance of the chute?


----------



## prezes

I've decided to sell mine after a lot of deliberation. Can't keep this one and the niche as much as I'd love to. it was a difficult choice but prefer the looks of the Niche. 
If anyone is after one I advertised if the for sale section.


----------



## ajohn

naturalganja said:


> I'm curious, with all the mods being made to the clumping plates, do you guys still have grounds accumulating before the plate at the entrance of the chute?


 They will to some extent as it's set in from the rim of the grinds chamber.. The main problem with that area is when it gets so solid grinds can't get out. Eg you might find the dose 1g short or some high amount, best get it out with the puffer. With one flap fitted rather than 2 this has not happened for me so far but bean types may have an effect.


----------



## Ben030

Referring to my above post, here is a photo of the 3D printed "adapter".

















Here is the Video:


----------



## zellleonhart

Ben030 said:


> Referring to my above post, here is a photo of the 3D printed "adapter".
> Here is the Video:


 This is amazing, could you share the link to purchase the mythos one flap and the STL file please? The result is outstanding!


----------



## ajohn

zellleonhart said:


> This is amazing, could you share the link to purchase the mythos one flap and the STL file please? The result is outstanding!


 The adapter seems to be a spacer and seal. It could be cut out of all sorts of things. I cut this out of silicone rubber sheet to see what happened with zero obstruction  bit roughly done as I thought it wouldn't work out well. I might try it again when I reduced pop corning but grinds hit the spout so hard they will stick too much when some beans are used.


----------



## Ben030

@ajohnis right, it is more or less a spacer/seal. It helps to fill the gap that the standard silicone flappers would fill if they were mounted. Without this part, some ground coffee will miss the spout. And it helps keeping the Mythos One flapper in place also.

Here is the stl: https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4873784

You can buy the flapper at homebarista belgium https://homebarista.be/de/shop/products/nuova-simonelli-clump-crusher-mythos-one or here if you prefer a uk reseller https://www.coffeeomega.co.uk/product/mythos-one-clamp-crusher/ (you only need the white part, not the metal part).


----------



## Denis S

Okay so let's cut the play/games:

Had some time to get the grinder going. A pair of ssp 64 mm red speed multi-purpose burrs with 10kg/22lbs are on the way to fit in.

This is how my grinder was aligned out of the factory for the moving burr: it shames names like ditting, mahlkonig, compak, eureka, ceado.

And then for the static burr I had to do a bit more work. Keep in mind aligning a grinder with parts out of it means nothing, a grinder is an assembly of parts, that put together give you a result. there are several ways in how to check a dynamic alignment, based on pressure on dial plate close to touching, based on sound, based on marker method, based on difference between locked and touching burrs, based on feeler gauge inserted at the chute, and many more. I had many grinders, so I kinda know how to take them and what to do with them.

Pulled some shots before and after and there is an improvement, in taste and extraction yield. The grinder is easy to align, use, and take apart. For 400$ you can't get anything.

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipN8289ONFJ63D9f72_ecl27MhdZaTApdNrdL0jOixiNIficEph_7IHbAxhwiulong?key=a1hLeVRndTA0RlVLTkh3VFo0aEV1T09oN0JhLXJB

/monthly_2021_05/VID_20210531_102839.mp4.ff94f237597f5a5d1875e955c7827fc9.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment VID_20210531_102839.mp4


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> This is how my grinder was aligned out of the factory for the moving burr: it shames names like ditting, mahlkonig, compak, eureka, ceado.


 I did it via a 3 point check on the flats on the burrs and a few more to make sure it's flat. Much better than 20um. There may be some point in looking closer if HU burrs are going to be used as they run much closer than the burrs it comes with. The top burr it comes with did need shimming by a significant amount compared with the burr spacing in actual use for the usual brew ratios people use for espresso. Even more so for HU.

It's thrown a couple of things at me that I haven't seen on a grinder I have used for a significant time before. A few shots mean nothing. Lots does eventually. Rather small patches on the bottom of the filter basket not providing any flow at all and more often oil stain under the puck in places on it showing that flow was much lower than over the rest of the basket.

I use a relatively low power infusion which will stress the puck and prep more and increase extraction. Few shots go straight into one flow and they can take a while to merge. Rather different to the other grinder I use. Shot time has become more consistent since switching to 1 flap rather than 2 but still doesn't match the other grinder.


----------



## Denis S

@ajohn the grinder is aligned better than 10 microns from factory for the moving burr. What you see the dial moving a lot is when it bumps into the 3 fins from the carrier. I will not use HU burrs cause those are for traditional low flow espresso.

I'm using multi-purpose brew burrs, for 16-22 sec shots for 1-3 ratio. for the static burr I choose to not chase the under 10 microns alignment because i'm swapping the burrs in a few days, so no point in adding that many shims. I do check at the screw and in between, not only in 3 points, but I did not want to do 10 photos.


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> the grinder is aligned better than 10 microns from factory for the moving burr. What you see the dial moving a lot is when it bumps into the 3 fins from the carrier. I will not use HU burrs cause those are for traditional low flow espresso.


  Yes I know but prefer to dti separate flats on the burrs and lift in between checking they are flat as well. It needs the dti stand mounting on a heavy weight to avoid disturbing things. I didn't look any closer as the thinnest shim I can use is 25um. I've seen mention of sanding to get closer

There is no need for a dti and the limitation then gets down to how thin and consistent the marks left with a marker can be. By using that and the scale on the grinder it looks like my bottom burr is aligned to ~10um.


----------



## Denis S

you have 6 microns shims if you use kitchen aluminium foil, the thin one. you can fold it as many times as you want, then you get ~ 12 microns or multiple of 6.

You can check how thick it is placing it under the dial.


----------



## AnthonyTD

Been a while since I posted on this thread - just been enjoying the grinder. I did see somone had added a 3D printed part to get the dosing cup closer to the spout.

I came up with something similar - and really simple:









Slides onto the dosing cup and fits quite tight thanks to the taper on it.

Anyone who wants to print one is welcome to here is the link to the STL file


----------



## heytchap

AnthonyTD said:


> Been a while since I posted on this thread - just been enjoying the grinder. I did see somone had added a 3D printed part to get the dosing cup closer to the spout.
> 
> I came up with something similar - and really simple:
> 
> View attachment 57857
> 
> 
> Slides onto the dosing cup and fits quite tight thanks to the taper on it.
> 
> Anyone who wants to print one is welcome to here is the link to the STL file
> 
> 
> View attachment 57859
> 
> View attachment 57858


 This is lovely. Thanks. I'd just been resting my cup on top but wishing for something like this to bring it closer.

I just bought a Prusa Mini+ a week or two ago, so this will be one of the first things.


----------



## lake_m

Interesting reading and great thread!

Very encouraging to read about the initial alignment figures folk are measuring straight from the factory.

I hope the OEM takes note of the clump crushing innovations that are being worked through by you guys, it's the only fly in the ointment that I can see.

Am I correct in assuming that the 64mm burrs are directly interchangeable with those used in the Lagom (i.e SSP UM etc.)? If that's the case, wow! Coupled with those burrs and great alignment, looks like we have ourselves a little bargain here!

Another question - Are Bella the only UK dealers / suppliers? They don't seem to offer the SSP burrs, only the TiN coated standard ones. Aliexpress are selling for $400 without delivery but, again only TiN burrs fitted.


----------



## Roko

lake_m said:


> Interesting reading and great thread!
> 
> Very encouraging to read about the initial alignment figures folk are measuring straight from the factory.
> 
> I hope the OEM takes note of the clump crushing innovations that are being worked through by you guys, it's the only fly in the ointment that I can see.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that the 64mm burrs are directly interchangeable with those used in the Lagom (i.e SSP UM etc.)? If that's the case, wow! Coupled with those burrs and great alignment, looks like we have ourselves a little bargain here!


 Yes they are interchangeable. And to be honest, with SSP HU I've not had any popcorning at all, ever, and upon cleaning I found far less grounds within the chamber (2g). Maybe a coincidence.


----------



## dutchy101

Bella Barista are now stocking Keber titanium burrs for the Solo

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/64mm-keber-titanium-burrs.html?utm_campaign=634271_Titanium Burrs for The Solo Grinder&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Time Leisure Ltd t%2Fa Bella Barista&dm_i=57CL,DLEN,3CGTL8,1K4R9,1


----------



## Giampiero

Roko said:


> Yes they are interchangeable. And to be honest, with SSP HU I've not had any popcorning at all, ever, and upon cleaning I found far less grounds within the chamber (2g). Maybe a coincidence.


 I suspect that, due to the design of the breaking teeth ( lees teeth and more space between them compared with the stock Italmill burr) the beans are getting broke more easily and less broken beans are rolling against other beans reducing the popcorning effect, just a thought i had already few months ago and i even shared my opinion with my local distributor, but i could never figure out if my theory was right due to i did not found similar design burr to fit in my DF64.


----------



## lake_m

Roko said:


> Yes they are interchangeable. And to be honest, with SSP HU I've not had any popcorning at all, ever, and upon cleaning I found far less grounds within the chamber (2g). Maybe a coincidence.


 Can I ask where you purchased the SSP burrs from?


----------



## Roko

lake_m said:


> Can I ask where you purchased the SSP burrs from?


 It was via their IG, I messaged Hansung and he sent me a Paypal link. SSP HU were not available on the website at the time but via IG they magically became available.

I did not buy coated versions as they are criminally more expensive and - IMO - utterly useless for home use. One can't even say that they look better, since they spend their whole existence hidden within a grinder.

Your next question is going to be 'did you pay any customs or fee', and my answer will be no. 😅


----------



## ajohn

Roko said:


> Yes they are interchangeable. And to be honest, with SSP HU I've not had any popcorning at all, ever, and upon cleaning I found far less grounds within the chamber (2g). Maybe a coincidence.


 I always find way less that that in now and did get pop corning with grinder as supplied with SSP HU burrs in.

I'd like to see a video of yours.

Edit should add that with some beans I would find lots inside after not that many shots.


----------



## heytchap

lake_m said:


> Interesting reading and great thread!
> 
> Very encouraging to read about the initial alignment figures folk are measuring straight from the factory.
> 
> I hope the OEM takes note of the clump crushing innovations that are being worked through by you guys, it's the only fly in the ointment that I can see.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that the 64mm burrs are directly interchangeable with those used in the Lagom (i.e SSP UM etc.)? If that's the case, wow! Coupled with those burrs and great alignment, looks like we have ourselves a little bargain here!
> 
> Another question - Are Bella the only UK dealers / suppliers? They don't seem to offer the SSP burrs, only the TiN coated standard ones. Aliexpress are selling for $400 without delivery but, again only TiN burrs fitted.


 Yes, the burrs are interchangeable.

the mfg also takes feedback via alibaba and I suspect they follow some of these threads here and there.


----------



## Roko

ajohn said:


> I always find way less that that in now and did get pop corning with grinder as supplied with SSP HU burrs in.
> 
> I'd like to see a video of yours.
> 
> Edit should add that with some beans I would find lots inside after not that many shots.


 A video of what, just the absence of popcorning?


----------



## ajohn

Roko said:


> A video of what, just the absence of popcorning?


 Yes unless you have added something to prevent it.


----------



## Roko

ajohn said:


> Yes unless you have added something to prevent it.


 I mean, the video will just be me putting beans in, pressing the button, and showing that a dozen seconds later, there's no beans popping about in the chamber. Given that the bellows will be in place, nothing will be visible..


----------



## Giampiero

Roko said:


> I mean, the video will just be me putting beans in, pressing the button, and showing that a dozen seconds later, there's no beans popping about in the chamber. Given that the bellows will be in place, nothing will be visible..


 🤣


----------



## terio

Roko said:


> It was via their IG, I messaged Hansung and he sent me a Paypal link. SSP HU were not available on the website at the time but via IG they magically became available.
> 
> I did not buy coated versions as they are criminally more expensive and - IMO - utterly useless for home use. One can't even say that they look better, since they spend their whole existence hidden within a grinder.
> 
> Your next question is going to be 'did you pay any customs or fee', and my answer will be no. 😅


 Hi, can I ask how much you paid for the non coated burrs, please? I sent them a message through the website a few days ago, but no reply, yet. I'm hoping to get some SSP burrs in my super jolly. Single dosing it really isn't too much hassle so might as well see if I can't get a better cup of coffee without spending 1000s.


----------



## Roko

@terio 170 usd


----------



## terio

@Roko Cheers for that. Now just need to decide which option to go for, leaning towards the multipurpose at the moment.


----------



## Roko

terio said:


> @Roko Cheers for that. Now just need to decide which option to go for, leaning towards the multipurpose at the moment.


 I have HU and I have been getting great results for espresso (well, I sold my machine a week ago or so), not so much for filter. Unfortunately I can't do without a grinder, otherwise you could've popped by the Southside and tried mine 🤣


----------



## Denis S

So back after a trip and got a pair of ssp 64mm multi-purpose. I have plenty of experience with ssp burrs in the last 2 years+ (had or tested at my place 64 ssp (3 models) 71 and 73mm SSP, 75mm SSP, 98mm (3 types) so I know what to do to make them work.

Aligned the ssp 64mm multi-purpose burrs that I got cheap second hand seasoned with 12kg of coffee. Then did the flapper/chute mod.

18.6g in 18.5g out.

My burrs touch at 22/23 and I grind at 30 (so you can say I'm at 0.8/0.7) for this particular light roasted filter coffee.

first try on it:

18gin/50.1g out at 9 TDS= 25% EY

second try :

18g in/52.3g out at 9.2 TDS= 26.7% EY

Taste is like I remember from unimodal brew burrs, with a lot of flavors, heavy body, and a coating that remains for long.

I still find the taste from Bentwood way superior and more elegant (it delivers more subtle notes too) the SSP is really heavy on main notes, and it covers the rest.











































And before someone wants to go bonkers on my refractometer being off, it's calibrated and tested vs other 3 brands (VST/HM and Atago), if you dont have anything constructive about refractometer, keep it for yourself.


----------



## terio

Roko said:


> I have HU and I have been getting great results for espresso (well, I sold my machine a week ago or so), not so much for filter. Unfortunately I can't do without a grinder, otherwise you could've popped by the Southside and tried mine 🤣


 That's a kind offer, thank you. Although a bit of a trek now, I've not updated location but been out in New Zealand the last couple of years.


----------



## terio

@Denis S How do you find the multi purpose burrs deal with a more lightish to medium roast? I've been in New Zealand the last couple of years, only ever buy filter roast for espresso, but it's still darker than I would ideally like. Having tried most/all of the decent roasters, this is something I just have to put up with. But this does mean when I get a bean that isn't so great, I start pulling it short to 18/32ish whereas normally do 18 to 40-44 type range. I think really asking if i'd be worse off with these burrs in that kind of situation or are they still an improvement on stock Mazzer?

Thanks for taking the time to put your observations up, helps not having to buy blind.


----------



## Mrboots2u

@Denis S there is a difference between two refracotmers in the photo and yet you say there are calibrated and accurate against each other

I did the same thing with atago vst ages ago with a without filters there was not a consistent and reliable difference between them .


----------



## Denis S

@Mrboots2uthere is a difference between different refractometer even if you calibrate in the same fashion. I dont know if you are not aware of this, if not here is a video for you:

The difference can also be made because of the measuring protocol, how you take the samples, if you cool them down, if you avoid evaporation and so on. I get the samples reading in the same temp range (on my yellow refractometer you get the temp displayed on the screen).

Use automatic subtitles.






Another thing to even consider is the VST app has a build in moisture and something else correction factor (maybe evaporation not sure since I did not use it a lot) that boosts your extraction by 1-1.5% EY.

So if you have a VST refractometer and you are using it with the app, instead of the normal value in my case let's say 26.7% I would get a 28% EY value for an unfiltered result.

Out of respect for the forum, and because I know I 'm going Hulk mode if I respond more about refractometers, this will be my last post about refractometers. We can talk about the g-iota here if you want. I could not give a damn if the refraction is 24.5 % instead of 26.7 %. As a disclaimer and so you understand my point of view, I do not care about precise refractometer values, about filtration, about variation and differences. I put the pictures so nobody can dismantle my results with ease, saying that is a piece of crap displaying fake numbers. If I would publish results, or get experimenting I would do a more precise filtration/centrifuge refractions, but since this is only to guide myself with group of values (20-23%/23-25%/ 25%+) I do not really care about mega precise numbers. My mega precise evaluation is the taste, and I guide myself by it. Refractometer is just to double check everything and sometimes to see if something extra in the puck prep, or profile adds something substantial or not.

As for light and medium an dark roasts, it's all subjective. One's man light roast can be others medium +. SSP MP burrs are made for brewing and ultra fast shots out of light nordic roasts. If you see descriptors as caramel, chocolate, nuts, spices, veggies on the bag, then rest assured that is not a light roasts in most of the cases.

How to get the best result with this type of burrs:

1-2.5+ ratio pulled in 16-25 sec (full time with preinfusion) at a max pressure of 6-7 bar.

The average flow in the cup to be fast, in between 2.5- 5g/s (if preinfusion is 8 sec, the brew is 10 sec at 5g/s average in cup you get a 50 g drink ).

This is a ultra fast shot, with bplus from the light roast. It taste really good, with chocolate, berries and bergamot. It looks like a horrible channeling fast/missed too coarse shot, but this is how you extract a lot and the taste is good on this burrs. If you try to squeeze the shot and make it slower flow and shorter ratio/longer time it will just mute the flavors and get a nasty aftertaste/lower ey%.

https://visualizer.coffee/shots/f29765e3-afe6-448d-aa42-35fd0d03da15

https://streamable.com/cmavi7

And as a conclusion, I would not use the ssp multi-purpose burrs for medium or dark roasts, you can't pull propers shots to taste good out of those roasts. You need other burrs for that.

I am sorry if you find my posts a bit sparkly/acidic. I have good intentions, just sometimes a bit too arrogant.


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> My burrs touch at 22/23 and I grind at 30 (so you can say I'm at 0.8/0.7) for this particular light roasted filter coffee.


 That's similar to what I found with SSP HU burrs. It's 0.08/0.07 mm.  Why it's not a good idea to thump the bellows hard while running even with the burrs it comes with. Mine have had ~30kg run through them, lots of that to run them in.

The light roast I used wasn't particularly bitter. These burrs removed all traces of it and in this case spoilt the taste. The burrs it came with didn't have any problem matching the tasting notes and needed a rather wider burr spacing than the SSP burrs.

The other problem I had with the HU SSP was the grinder choking. They are said to grind more quickly than others which would explain that and I had 2 flaps fitted. Generally the grinder is better behaved with just one even with it's standard burrs. Looks like some beans will still = trouble though. I've decided to wait for a couple of kg to go through at espresso settings before trying one that did quickly cause grief again.


----------



## Denis S

If you are bothered by the burrs not touching at 0 you can use a hair drier to heat slowly the dial ring, remove it and then stick it so that it shows zero where your burrs touch. This will not damage the dial ring, as it's pretty thick and the glue under it will stick a second time.

You can also get a laser cut/engraved new ring at a shop for 10-20 GBP and glue it as you want.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Thanks for the reply but I'm lost if you don't care what the refractometer is telling you or how accurate it is or whether it's filtrate or not , the why use one and why post the results you find . Often I'll see posts on Instagram form lost of coffee people saying it's the % ey like it's some absolute measure of excellence but it's all smoke and mirrors if people are using the same process or same calibration of filters etc .

in large this is also why I've stopped caring or using anyone's Ey as a measure of anything .


----------



## MWJB

Denis S said:


> Another thing to even consider is the VST app has a build in moisture and something else correction factor (maybe evaporation not sure since I did not use it a lot) that boosts your extraction by 1-1.5% EY.
> 
> So if you have a VST refractometer and you are using it with the app, instead of the normal value in my case let's say 26.7% I would get a 28% EY value for an unfiltered result.


 Loss on drying, the method by which coffee samples' TDS was determined for over 50 years prior to the refractometer replacing dehydration ovens, excludes any mass in the coffee dose that isn't dry coffee. VST allow for CO2 & moisture, we know both these things are in there. If you want to set the defaults to "0" in the VST software, that's fine (and why I take readings to be +/-1% if not stated). But this is not historically the "normal" value, it's a recent trend.

All samples have been filtered historically, if not, you might call it 'total solids yield', rather than 'extraction yield' (extraction yield should not contain non-dissolved solids).

I have all 3 refractometers you showed. They don't produce the same readings and they don't have anything like the same precision, even when used properly.


----------



## heytchap

Denis S said:


> If you are bothered by the burrs not touching at 0 you can use a hair drier to heat slowly the dial ring, remove it and then stick it so that it shows zero where your burrs touch. This will not damage the dial ring, as it's pretty thick and the glue under it will stick a second time.
> 
> You can also get a laser cut/engraved new ring at a shop for 10-20 GBP and glue it as you want.


 I did this. Can confirm it works.


----------



## AnthonyTD

Denis S said:


> If you are bothered by the burrs not touching at 0 you can use a hair drier to heat slowly the dial ring, remove it and then stick it so that it shows zero where your burrs touch. This will not damage the dial ring, as it's pretty thick and the glue under it will stick a second time.
> 
> You can also get a laser cut/engraved new ring at a shop for 10-20 GBP and glue it as you want.


 Or even easier get the indiactor ring that I posted earlier here 3D printed. Not only does it allow you to adjust where your zero point is, but it also proivides a much easier to read pointer and doesnt void any warranty.


----------



## Denis S

I took your model and uploaded it on a free website that doesn't need a log-in or account to download it:

I got mega annoyed by the fact that dropbox asked me for an account/login, and the forum doesnt support that format:

https://files.fm/f/zukpxbfuf


----------



## Roko

@Denis S did you make this bellows yourself?









I think they look much neater than the stock ones. And I can't help but wonder whether they could be combined with @AnthonyTD's funnel to have a bellows that is both aesthetically pleasing (well, more than the stock one) and would also allow to feed the beans with the grinder already on.


----------



## Denis S

The bellows I did acts like a dosing cup, you take it out, weight the beans do RDT then start the grinder and flip the bellows with the beans inside in place then press, it's more flexible than the stock one.

But I am working on a new concept.


----------



## Roko

Denis S said:


> The bellows I did acts like a dosing cup, you take it out, weight the beans do RDT then start the grinder and flip the bellows with the beans inside in place then press, it's more flexible than the stock one.
> 
> But I am working on a new concept.


 Great to hear - I see you are warming up to this grinder, otherwise you wouldn't bother maybe 😁


----------



## Denis S

A small info.

The thread on g-iota seems to be 1.25mm so one full turn would be 1250 microns.

If you look at the dial to determine how many units would fit into one full turn it would be 120 units.

1250 microns/120 units=10.4 micron per unit (distance between burrs).

Now to use this information:

a. determinate the burrs touching sound with the grinder running (in my case 19 on dial).

b. determinate the lock burrs with the grinder *OFF* (in my case 16 on dial) do not use brute force to lock them.

19-16=3 units difference, and now knowing one unit is 10.4microns it means the difference is 31.2 microns total slack.

This slack takes into consideration everything, from burr alignment, grinder rigidity, thread tolerance and play (every thread has play, otherwise we could not move it).

From experience with many many grinders, a good alignment once done it would be in the 20-30 microns range, a bad alignment 50 microns+ .

In the pics you see the 1.25mm thread on g-iota with a ruler.

A comparison with a ek43 thread pitch (0.75mm).

And how to determinate how many units would fit one full turn.


----------



## MWJB

Denis S said:


> From experience with many many grinders, a good alignment once done it would be in the 20-30 microns range, a bad alignment 50 microns+ .


 This is interesting, but I'm still unsure how to use this information?

What was typical alignment from the grinders you studied, by burr size?

Obviously a 90mm grinder with 30um misalignment is better aligned than a 64mm grinder with 30um misalignment, so shouldn't we be more focussed on the angle of alignment?


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> The thread on g-iota seems to be 1.25mm so one full turn would be 1250 microns.


 I used thread gauges. That does seem to be correct. By measuring the gap at the ends of the scale in it's graduations with dividers one mark is a bit under 10um.

For @MWJB

It's the gap between the burrs that sets the grind size so larger burrs need better angular alignment.

Some of the more exotic burrs need closer spacing for the same grind size based on shot size and ratio produced they give. SSP HU for instance.


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> For @MWJB
> 
> It's the gap between the burrs that sets the grind size so larger burrs need better angular alignment.


 The gap between the peaks & troughs of the finishing area, plus the burr gap set the grind size. Two burrs with the same diameter & burr gap, but different finishing areas will make a different average grind size.

An EK-43 with 30um misalignment has better alignment than a df64 with 30um alignment. That's my point, the number of microns isn't a constant, nor an informative value - angle of alignment is, I know that you know this, so I don't see the point of your comment.

Still, knowing the gap, without knowing finishing area characteristics/average grind size for those burrs, doesn't provide any useful context.


----------



## Denis S

When you will tell me something other than the sky is blue and there are no clouds so it wont rain we can have a discussion. Until then I wont respond to you personally. If you have something constructive to add to the topic, please do.

If you try to poke and dismantle my findings by playing the smarter dude, then please come with your better method of doing things.


----------



## lake_m

I think someone got out of the wrong side of the bed this morning.


----------



## Stevebee

He always gets out that side on every forum 😂


----------



## heytchap

King James Hoffmann said he's dropped his DF64 review this week. These grinders are about to explode.


----------



## Roko

heytchap said:


> King James Hoffmann said he's dropped his DF64 review this week. These grinders are about to explode.


 I hope the motor is going to be a bit more reliable than that!


----------



## Denis S

The grinder suffers for some problems in the stock form. I'm not saying it can't be used as it is, i'm just saying a Niche is easier to use stock compared to this and that is not only from a conical vs flat puck prep point of view, but from a workflow point too.

The two silicone membranes inside the chute are to stiff, and create too much back pressure having some retention or making you press the bellows many many times. The compression of grinds and the carrier moving the grind inside more will create more clumps, so a mod to that should be done (remove one or buy the mythos de clumper).

There is a lot of popcorning around, and the grind takes some time, something to help with that is again mandatory.

Alignment is good on flat burrs, has a huge impact, even if we speak of stock burrs.

The motor has little space inside, and it gets hot really fast. After grinding for 1-2 minutes it gets hot.

It get's hot in there even if you let the grinder run at idle for some time.

For 400 Euro/$/GBP I dont think you can get anything else better than this, but take into consideration the 3 minuses above. For sure James will have some bad things to say but in a gentle,cosmetized fashion. I find his videos well edited, good quality but for the mass, well structured. For someone who is more advanced, his videos are boring, lacking content and most of the time on a neutral side. Like, I'm gonna say this but dont really say anything, but I will add a joke between the lines, then we laugh and then we move on.

From my view, as the Grindfather, or a connoisseur of grinders, I could not care less about a ketchup cup that comes with a Lagom. But I do see that someone would care for that.


----------



## Giampiero

heytchap said:


> King James Hoffmann said he's dropped his DF64 review this week. These grinders are about to explode.


 Where he said that?


----------



## Roko

Giampiero said:


> Where he said that?


 On his Patreon or Discord - he said he'd drop the video shortly (this week or next week I think).


----------



## ajohn

@Denis S

The motor isn't that much of a problem really for the sort of run time it's likely to see in practice. You'll find as I did that it gets hot when run without any beans in it at all. 3 by it's 40sec is enough to get the casing "rather" warm. The internals of the motor will be a lot hotter. These styles of motor can get way too hot to touch and within limits that's ok. Power even drops but not that much of a consequence.

Removing one of the flaps helps a lot. The angle on the the end of the sweeper arms is interesting if grinding is looked at in detail.

Pop corning is bad news on flat burr. They do ideally need a constant feed of beans over there entire area. Take that away and what happens depends on spring pressure and where they are being ground and the force from that.

Mine needed an 0.005" shim on the top burr. 0.127mm. There is no reason to suppose others aren't the same. That is a lot for the setting needed on a typical easy grind medium roast. As things have turned out both burrs are aligned to a point where I'd need to worry about the thickness of the marker I used to be sure of being better. By over tightening looks to be ~15um. TBH looking at the setting using SSP HU that have been run in even that small amount might make a difference.  Acidity was so low I didn't like the bean any more. Lost it's tasting notes, one flavour, the important one went completely. However the grinder wouldn't produce many shots without choking problems. A light roast.

Anyway I could say more - why it is as it is etc but I await Jame's review with great interest. Perhaps his will have a fix added but TBH I feel there are too many factors to do that completely.

Competition - it doesn't really compete with a Mazzer Mini with a funnel and a rubber 3 stage camera lens hood and a small weight to limit pop corning. Spouts have their problems when grinds shoot out. A hacksaw is needed to make this one easy to clean. Ceado changed a design of a new grinder pretty quickly due to this and that is with the hopper on.

Grinder reviews - i would have thought anyone who had used a variety of beans on a few different grinders would know that the beans being used can matter as well. This is likely to be a real feature on this one.


----------



## Denis S

The Mazzer is no real competition to this. It clumps like crazy.


----------



## profesor_historia

Denis S said:


> The Mazzer is no real competition to this. It clumps like crazy.


 Really? I had several Mazzer in the past and never had this problem. My last toy is a Mazzer Kony with the same burrs as Niche and definitely doesn't clump, not at all. Which models did you have?


----------



## Denis S

I had Mazzer Kony and that is a conical, it grinds much coarser than a flat.

I'm talking about ssp burrs+ mazzer flat (mini and SJ) grinders, they clump like crazy, i'll post pictures later when I have access to them. BTW: I am referring to single dose, where you have to grind much finer on mazzer compared to bean in hopper. The finer you grind more clumps you get.

With SSP MP you grind at 80-100 micron distance between burrs on Mazzer SJ. (one unit is 15 microns, so at 6-7 units away from touch point.


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> The Mazzer is no real competition to this. It clumps like crazy.


 Well I put many kg through my mini modded as mentioned and antistatic grind removed and a lot of that was 2nd crack monsooned*. No clumps. Pass one what happens with a spout on them or what would happen if higher rate burrs were fitted eg super jolly. At the time most fitted a funnel of some sort to what ever grinder they were modding. For various reasons I wanted the Mazzer one.

It needs a brush though largely due to the length of the path out of the grinds chamber. Retention then is rather low. An odd tiny fraction more can be got out by brushing over the burrs and briefly spinning up again. It is a *very* small fraction.

Only thing is that it was an electronic one to get the funnel. 45 degree deflector removed from that as well. The funnel and it's portafilter rest means that a nice even heap of grinds directly into the portafilter can be produced.  I miss it in some ways even when using Niche. I still have it and a Solo as it stands wont replace it. Some work on a lathe and it might but some things I would be inclined to change are impossible. Anyway from my point of view more lessons learnt for if I ever do make my own.

From various grinders I have weighed in on fluffy grinds are a feature of weighing in. Super fluffy on the Solo but that seems to be a consequence of the X shaped flaps. At coarser settings the texture effects of that can be seen in the grinds.  I was near filling a one litre ice cream container when running in each time I filled the funnel to a sensible level. ~100g. Burr spacing about twice the espresso level. Most volume I have ever seen come out of a grinder. Some one on the Lagom thread has noticed the effect of fluffy grinds on that. Sounds like they are also noticing the finer setting needed with fancy burrs. A lady called Mildred on here but not around any more mentioned that a while ago but not sure which burrs. Makes tuning a touch trickier.

It's all an odd area really as grinders are largely designed for use with the hopper on and intended to compress the grinds to some extent. That means some beans will clump but nice and tidy for coffee shops. Thanks to Sage I got wrapped up with interest in fluffy grinds but time and use has made me wonder. I even have an obscure grinder I was given where they have cast in a tangential grinds exit. For use with a doser so does make some sense.

*The monsooned I used then is less oily than the one I use now but was still oily enough to stick to the sides of a bean can and need to clean oil off the beans path to where they are ground. I use an airscape and have to check the lid for beans sticking too it and also needed to with the earlier ones from another roaster. I wont be putting these beans through the Solo. I don't think it would cope.


----------



## ajohn

Denis S said:


> With SSP MP you grind at 80-100 micron distance between burrs on


 With the light roast I used, SSP HU. Only one I have tried so far it was in the 60-70um range for a ratio of 2 with 17g. Way over that with the burrs that come with it. It was a naturally processed bean.

I suspect the multipurpose burrs are an attempt to get around HU issues.

When I tried weighing in on a Robur I added some tube so it could be set up the same way as a mini.

I do have a video of some one Super Jolly. Flap added. I suspect to reduce static. Some clumping






Sadly no video of my Mini but I am not inclined to tell fibs and I mean no clumps. I did use a weight over the beans from day one as I didn't want bits of beans going all over the place. The burrs were well run in. Seems it spend some time at an exhibition ~1300 shots, singles. The board was missinstalled so doubles didn't work.  I didn't half gets some refund discount and help due to that also due to the shot count. Mind you it may be a better option than a return. I bough a 2nd one and suspect that is what it was. Sent back, different animal. Why I don't know.

One person that had clumps added a mesh grill to the funnel and brushed them through. Youtube somewhere.

There used to be more discussion on clumps on here than of late. From those I ignore static clumps. Solo somewhat bean and use dependent produces some very small rather firm ones. 2 flaps definitely enhance that. Touch a static clump lightly and it will fall apart.


----------



## Denis S

HU issues? what are you referring to? HU burrs are a bit similar to traditional burrs, nothing special about them.

unimodal MP burrs are grinding more uniform, with much finer grind (finer grind= more fines) and clumps.


----------



## Denis S

Here you go:

Mazzer SJ with ssp multi-purpose (seasoned) with eliminated chute and the fines at the top are from the bellows.

You can see plenty of clumps (lighter coffee and unimodal burrs):


----------



## turkalpmd

Ben030 said:


> View attachment 57737





ajohn said:


> The adapter seems to be a spacer and seal. It could be cut out of all sorts of things. I cut this out of silicone rubber sheet to see what happened with zero obstruction  bit roughly done as I thought it wouldn't work out well. I might try it again when I reduced pop corning but grinds hit the spout so hard they will stick too much when some beans are used.
> 
> 
> View attachment 57767


 Thank you for these upgrades.

I use stock slicone clump crusher for 3D adaptor;

https://www.kahvekulubu.net/sosyal/attachments/ddb159b2-4ab5-4f29-b6ce-8cd4c294bc88-jpeg.13575/

https://www.kahvekulubu.net/sosyal/attachments/e08ecb62-030d-44d3-9c2e-d159853dec5b-jpeg.13576/


----------



## AnthonyTD

Roko said:


> @Denis S did you make this bellows yourself?
> 
> 
> View attachment 57917
> 
> 
> I think they look much neater than the stock ones. And I can't help but wonder whether they could be combined with @AnthonyTD's funnel to have a bellows that is both aesthetically pleasing (well, more than the stock one) and would also allow to feed the beans with the grinder already on.
> 
> 
> View attachment 57918


 Just for the record, I did not supply that Funnel design - have not even printed it myself so I cannot take any credit for it.


----------



## Denis S

Because it's mine.


----------



## newdent

> 10 hours ago, Denis S said:
> 
> I had Mazzer Kony and that is a conical, it grinds much coarser than a flat.
> 
> I'm talking about ssp burrs+ mazzer flat (mini and SJ) grinders, they clump like crazy, i'll post pictures later when I have access to them. BTW: I am referring to single dose, where you have to grind much finer on mazzer compared to bean in hopper. The finer you grind more clumps you get.
> 
> With SSP MP you grind at 80-100 micron distance between burrs on Mazzer SJ. (one unit is 15 microns, so at 6-7 units away from touch point.


 That's insane, I've had two mazzers, an SJ and a mini and they don't clump at all. Neither had that on-demand doser though. They're very popular grinders and I don't think they'd have the reputation they do if they all performed that way. Must be some other factors at play there.


----------



## heytchap

Roko said:


> I hope the motor is going to be a bit more reliable than that!


 Groan 🙄

hahahahah


----------



## heytchap

Giampiero said:


> Where he said that?


 Discord.


----------



## Denis S

newdent said:


> That's insane, I've had two mazzers, an SJ and a mini and they don't clump at all. Neither had that on-demand doser though. They're very popular grinders and I don't think they'd have the reputation they do if they all performed that way. Must be some other factors at play there.


 the unimodal ssp burrs. Because the grind is more uniform, you can grind much finer, and when you grind much finer on most grinders, you get more clumps.


----------



## newdent

Denis S said:


> the unimodal ssp burrs. Because the grind is more uniform, you can grind much finer, and when you grind much finer on most grinders, you get more clumps.


 I see, interesting, thanks for explaining.

Does clumping like that go away with standard puck prep or does it actually cause problems with extraction? Perhaps grinding into a blind shaker or similar would help.


----------



## Denis S

You use a WDT tool and there are no problems.


----------



## Shea

@Denis S

Regarding the bellows you designed:












Denis S said:


> The bellows I did acts like a dosing cup, you take it out, weight the beans do RDT then start the grinder and flip the bellows with the beans inside in place then press, it's more flexible than the stock one.
> 
> But I am working on a new concept.


 I have just received some TPU for my printer and interested in trying a solution for bellow/dosing/RDT, would you mind sharing your design(s)?

Many thanks


----------



## newdent

Shea said:


> @Denis S
> 
> Regarding the bellows you designed:
> 
> 
> View attachment 57917
> 
> 
> I have just received some TPU for my printer and interested in trying a solution for bellow/dosing/RDT, would you mind sharing your design(s)?
> 
> Many thanks


 they look like the mignon bellows; https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4703218 could be wrong.

Worth noting that there have been longevity issues with the 3d printed bellows, worth noting that the designer of those uses silicone bellows now; https://www.etsy.com/listing/923944178/eureka-mignon-single-dose-hopper-and


----------



## pingpong

any thoughts?


----------



## Roko

> 1 hour ago, pingpong said:
> 
> any thoughts?


 Nothing particularly surprising really. He didn't say anything that wasn't said here.


----------



## newdent

Haha, he chose the title well to get attention!

Reading the comments, I didn't realise just how expensive the niche was for buyers outside of the UK. Not that I think the two grinders are particularly comparable but I can see why people outside the UK might choose the solo if they've got around £500 budget.

With so few UK manufacturers, we're rarely on the best side of things but glad we are in this instance. Now someone hurry up and manufacture a big flat burr single dose grinder in the UK!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

newdent said:


> With so few UK manufacturers,


 Sadly, it's now made in China.



newdent said:


> I didn't realise just how expensive the niche was for buyers outside of the UK.


 It wasn't the case for EU buyers until we fully transitioned out of the EU earlier in the year.


----------



## newdent

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Sadly, it's now made in China.
> 
> It wasn't the case for EU buyers until we fully transitioned out of the EU earlier in the year.


 Interesting, thanks for the info.

Shame that a UK company like niche will suffer on sales because of our EU exit! 😢


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

newdent said:


> Shame that a UK company like niche will suffer on sales because of our EU exit!


 That wasn't the case. I'm aware I'm going off-topic. I'll reach out over PM.


----------



## Roko

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Sadly, it's now made in China.
> 
> It wasn't the case for EU buyers until we fully transitioned out of the EU earlier in the year.


 Well it still shouldn't be the case for EU buyers, as Niche should and could be charging ex VAT as many UK-based retailers are doing when receiving orders from the EU, and vice versa. Why Niche don't do it is beyond me, but I suppose it helps the top line look bigger.


----------



## profesor_historia

> On 08/06/2021 at 12:49, Denis S said:
> 
> I had Mazzer Kony and that is a conical, it grinds much coarser than a flat.
> 
> I'm talking about ssp burrs+ mazzer flat (mini and SJ) grinders, they clump like crazy, i'll post pictures later when I have access to them. BTW: I am referring to single dose, where you have to grind much finer on mazzer compared to bean in hopper. The finer you grind more clumps you get.
> 
> With SSP MP you grind at 80-100 micron distance between burrs on Mazzer SJ. (one unit is 15 microns, so at 6-7 units away from touch point.


 I have never had this kind of clumpling in my life with a Mazzer Super Jolly not with Major. That's brutal


----------



## profesor_historia

newdent said:


> Interesting, thanks for the info.
> 
> Shame that a UK company like niche will suffer on sales because of our EU exit! 😢


 Sadly, I am afraid won't be the only one....


----------



## ajohn

pingpong said:


> any thoughts?


 Only showed it grinding a dose at a V60 setting. Good reason for that as it generally just chucks the lot out at coarser setting.

No mention that SSP burrs are likely to need shimming.

£400 for a grinder to modify. It is rather a lot for what it is. May be able to get a reasonable 3d printer for less that will have more work put into making it.

 His view on the design was "interesting". I have always had the impression he is inclined to be kind about that on all of his reviews. Very kind in this one. Nice finishing touch in that area - the font used on the dial.

Adjustment being tricky was sort of mentioned.

One rubber flap shown. Were the 2 still in the grinder? Just one does help.

Some roasts and beans will cause grief as it comes. May still do with one flap.

Unlike Niche pop corning doesn't matter this time. Odd really as effects on flat are likely to be worse.

My impression of the burrs that come with are they are good for various reasons in use and taste when things go well. Pity about what they are mounted in.


----------



## Ben030

@ajohnGrinding for espresso is done at 2:30, at least for a short moment. You seem to have quite a negative opinion in the grinder. I totally respect that. I can understand the flaps are not a perfect solution as using the bellow sucks because of the high resistance caused by the flaps. This was quite a big issue for me, too. On the other hand, I have not had any problems with choking the grinder with stock flaps like you had. I wonder why this occurred with your grinder. I drink medium roasts most of the time, may be this is a factor. What I want to point out is that in my optimum, it is a capable grinder. And in terms of taste, it outperforms my Rocket Fausto and my Mignon Magnifico. I was not completely satisfied with it in its stock configuration, but with the Flapper and popcorning mods I like the grinder very much. And I can also imagine one can be happy with the grinder in its stock version, as long as you can tolerate the fiddly handling of the bellow when used with stock flappers.

No question there are single dose grinders that outperform the DF-64 in terms of usability with ease. In my opinion, in terms of taste and price-performance-ratio the DF-64 is hard to beat, especially for EU citizens.


----------



## zellleonhart

Ben030 said:


> @ajohnGrinding for espresso is done at 2:30, at least for a short moment. You seem to have quite a negative opinion in the grinder. I totally respect that. I can understand the flaps are not a perfect solution as using the bellow sucks because of the high resistance caused by the flaps. This was quite a big issue for me, too. On the other hand, I have not had any problems with choking the grinder with stock flaps like you had. I wonder why this occurred with your grinder. I drink medium roasts most of the time, may be this is a factor. What I want to point out is that in my optimum, it is a capable grinder. And in terms of taste, it outperforms my Rocket Fausto and my Mignon Magnifico. I was not completely satisfied with it in its stock configuration, but with the Flapper and popcorning mods I like the grinder very much. And I can also imagine one can be happy with the grinder in its stock version, as long as you can tolerate the fiddly handling of the bellow when used with stock flappers.
> 
> No question there are single dose grinders that outperform the DF-64 in terms of usability with ease. In my opinion, in terms of taste and price-performance-ratio the DF-64 is hard to beat, especially for EU citizens.


 I am totally with you. No doubt it needed some mods (the flaps, better indicator, optionally the anti popcorning funnel) to make it better, but people need to view this grinder as a budget machine rather than comparing every single aspect to the other more expensive ones.

What James Hoffmann said is pretty accurate, it excels in the taste category and pricing, and you simple can't get other decent flat burr grinders (which incidentally also supports SSP burrs) at this price.

If the price of DF-64 is much higher, by all means it's fair to compare with the likes of Eureka etc for the user experience.

Heck, in Malaysia we probably get the best pricing globally (sans China itself) - it costs me 1399 MYR which is around 241 GBP. It's a no brainer considering an Eureka Specialita costs 2x of that here and a Niche Zero is 2.5x.


----------



## Denis S

Soon:

Video in use


----------



## Roko

Denis S said:


> Soon:
> 
> Video in use
> 
> View attachment 58118
> View attachment 58117
> View attachment 58114


 that's actually looking good!


----------



## DavecUK

@Denis S That's quite excellent Denis...well done.


----------



## Mark70

Nice innovation @Denis S wonder where you got the idea ? I like innovation but credit where credit is due!

Heres a video with beans in the doser


----------



## DavecUK

Mark70 said:


> Nice innovation @Denis S wonder where you got the idea ? I like innovation but credit where credit is due!


----------



## Mark70

DavecUK said:


> View attachment 58122


 Ha ha showing your age @DavecUK I used to watch that as a kid


----------



## Denis S

And Levercraft did get it from where? from Zhang, and Zhang?

Yes, it's based on LC doser. I could not care less who invented it and where it comes from, all I care is to work and to be cheap.


----------



## DavecUK

@Mark70 Fantastic program, educational and gripping. We had a lot of fun with the Narrators name as well.....sadly no longer with us.

Pugh, Pugh, Barney Mc Grew, Cuthbert, Dibble, Grub....he narrated both shows I believe.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

I end up using a puffer of some sort on the Niche; ugly but effective. Now if someone came up with something more attractive and custom?


----------



## DavecUK

@GrahamSPhillips Don't tempt me....🤣


----------



## GrahamSPhillips

Well its like this: I know the Niche is low retention but quite a lot of the grind gets stuck below the burrs and in the shute. A few puffs? Retention is zero.. I was surprised how much difference it makes.. (five quid off Amazon!)


----------



## Denis S

Yes, but you take away one advantage the Niche has, the simplicity to use it without not much extra steps in workflow.


----------



## DavecUK

@GrahamSPhillips


----------



## Mark70

DavecUK said:


> Pugh, Pugh, Barney Mc Grew, Cuthbert, Dibble, Grub....he narrated both shows I believe.


 I still say that to my grown up kids they have no idea what I am about. That and the I think Birds Eye advert

"Will it be chips or jacket spuds? Will it be salad or frozen peas? Will it be mushrooms? Fried onion rings? We'll have to wait and see... Hope it's chips it's chips, we hope it's chips it's chips."

Best get back to the topic


----------



## Mark70

Denis S said:


> And Levercraft did get it from where? from Zhang, and Zhang?
> 
> Yes, it's based on LC doser. I could not care less who invented it and where it comes from, all I care is to work and to be cheap.


 You know as well as so do Zhang and Levercraft work together on the Ultra and accessories.

Just give credit where it's due and don't claim it as your own as "I'm working on a new concept" which clearly this is not.

Topic closed for me as I dont own a Iota


----------



## Denis S

Mark70 said:


> You know as well as so do Zhang and Levercraft work together on the Ultra and accessories.
> 
> Just give credit where it's due and don't claim it as your own as "I'm working on a new concept" which clearly this is not.
> 
> Topic closed for me as I dont own a Iota


 Can you please point out where I wrote it's a new concept in the post where I show the doser/bellows? Or where I claimed I invented it?

And if you can't find it, then I would like you to apologise in public, please. The bellows from Ultra is made by Zhang, not Eric.

The Ultra grinder is made by Zhang, not Eric.

Eric has his own business with ultra, were he does indeed align it, improve it, quality control, and things of that nature. He is actually a reseller that makes sure the grinders are okay and it's responsible for the warranty, because the producer has no certificate to sell the grinders outside China. So thanks to Eric the Ultra's can be ordered anywhere on the planet.


----------



## heytchap

Denis S said:


> Soon:
> 
> Video in use
> 
> View attachment 58118
> View attachment 58117
> View attachment 58114


 mind sharing that STL?


----------



## basiecally

Denis S said:


> Soon:
> 
> Video in use
> 
> View attachment 58118
> View attachment 58117
> View attachment 58114


 I've got a DF64 on order and I'm not sure if looking forwards to modding it is a normal feeling to have, but I am! Always nice to make stuff your own, in other ways than just buying them.

I would also be interested in the STL (or Solidworks part if that was what you used to model it) for that print if you care to share it! Nice work! Looks like a rather complex model to get the flextures right. Any particular flavor of TPU that was suitable for the print?

Regards


----------



## Denis S

I still have to test it more and modify some small things that bother me in how it works.

I know for sure the grinder needs a bellows or else it will have some retention/build up inside, depending on what de-clumper you are using.

I know for sure the grinder needs a system to first start it and then drop the beans, because in my case the ssp MP are really aggressive and this will help the motor/torque.

While I do enjoy this design, I am not sure it's the easiest to make/print, the easiest to use and that it will last for more than 2-3 weeks and no break or the fins wont retract to stay closed.

Even so, I do not think I will share the file. I have my own reasons for that, beside the one mentioned above. Thanks.


----------



## basiecally

Denis S said:


> I still have to test it more and modify some small things that bother me in how it works.
> 
> I know for sure the grinder needs a bellows or else it will have some retention/build up inside, depending on what de-clumper you are using.
> 
> I know for sure the grinder needs a system to first start it and then drop the beans, because in my case the ssp MP are really aggressive and this will help the motor/torque.
> 
> While I do enjoy this design, I am not sure it's the easiest to make/print, the easiest to use and that it will last for more than 2-3 weeks and no break or the fins wont retract to stay closed.
> 
> Even so, I do not think I will share the file. I have my own reasons for that, beside the one mentioned above. Thanks.


 Right.

I don't have access to a 3D printer at the moment but designing something similar should provide an interesting challenge later on then. I'll make my own version of the Levercraft doser and provide here for people to try out for themselves. I think the Levercraft should be better from a longevity standpoint, being molded. But for prototyping and collectively working out the kinks of this grinder I think 3Dprints is a good way to prototype for it now.


----------



## Denis S

And how are you going to test it to make changes so it doesn't fail after 3 days? if you do not have access to a printer?

If people try and print your design it's just gonna end up in frustration if it's not working properly. I wish you best luck with it.


----------



## basiecally

Denis S said:


> And how are you going to test it to make changes so it doesn't fail after 3 days? if you do not have access to a printer?
> 
> If people try and print your design it's just gonna end up in frustration if it's not working properly. I wish you best luck with it.


 The "in the future" bit was referring to when I will have set up a printer and tested my prints out of course. Then again, I do view this as a collective endeavour. Thinking that if someone else find a fix for my design, sharing it would make it easier for people to help me correct it. I'm not looking to make any money from a design som why not?

I've printed quite a few parts for grinders previously, re-designing the upper burr carrier for an Isomac Prof Inox a while back and making it a positive lock system with 80 steps. I've had access to a Makerspace previously but I'm moving now so I'll have to set up my own printer before I can provide any physical examples for this one.


----------



## basiecally

The Levercraft doser/puffer looks like it's a two part solution. The inne cup presses down on the flaps causing them to open. Is yours a single part Denis?

I'm thinking one issue is getting enough travel to move enough air without having the inner cup loosing contact with the bottom, potentially trapping beans outside of it when pushed down, and at the same time not have it poke out the flaps a ridiculous distance. Maybe increasing the diameter of the bellows would adress this? move more air per cm pressed down?


----------



## naturalganja

I love the idea of this modified bellow but I am just curious. If you need to apply downward force to open up the bellow, and since the upper burr carrier of the DF rests on springs, wouldn't this very force affect the burrs distance from each other, especially if one tries to slow feed the beans? At espresso range this slight change could be a problem. Am I missing something?


----------



## Stevebee

Denis S said:


> But I am working on a new concept.


 I think this is where you mentioned it was a new concept. Stretch on the word new, as it's identical to the LeverCraft one so maybe no apology needed


----------



## Denis S

Stevebee said:


> I think this is where you mentioned it was a new concept. Stretch on the word new, as it's identical to the LeverCraft one so maybe no apology needed


 I was not referring to this bellows above, but something else.


----------



## Stevebee

Just a coincidence then. Ok


----------



## Denis S

@Stevebee the levercraft bellows is much smaller and will not be efficient in grinder like g-iota where you need a high volume of air pushed in order to eliminate retention.

But if you say it's identical then maybe people can buy the Levercraft one and try it.


----------



## Stevebee

Identical in concept - different burrs 98 v 64, and grinder opening obviously. But much closer to the LeverCraft than your earlier one but if it can work on this grinder it'll be a benefit as it needs something to clear the route and it works well on the Ultra. The Ultra has less need for the 'bellows' part of the design as you can purge so good point about increasing the bellows effectiveness


----------



## Stevebee

I think the key will be getting the inner cylinder the right height to allow more bellows action but still be effective at opening the flaps. After months of use the flaps still return to their starting position so that part should be fine


----------



## Denis S

You cannot implement pressing to release bellows on G-iota just because they get stiff (cause of the tube inside) so you change the distance between burrs, like naturalganja stated above.

I tried the design yesterday and today and I do not like it, and as mentioned I do not put out designs that I find bad, or not working properly, or breaking after 10 days. I find my simple bellows that acts like a dosing cup and then you flip it over the grinder and the beans fall in more pleasant to use, and it has less chance of things to get damaged/not working after 2 weeks.

@Stevebee do you own/have a G-iota? If not I find your post addressed to me to be personal (the first one) and this is not your first time doing that on my posts.

I already had the Ultra, so you are not giving me any news here:


----------



## Stevebee

@Denis S Not personal. You were asking for an apology from @Mark70 . Just pointing out the post where you said you were working on a new concept. I am sure he, like me , didn't realise it was a different concept than the one that was unveiled at the same time.

I thought when you had the Ultra on your bench it didn't have the bellows at that point as these were added at a later date. If it did then you've obviously had the chance to use them. Just trying to help.


----------



## basiecally

naturalganja said:


> I love the idea of this modified bellow but I am just curious. If you need to apply downward force to open up the bellow, and since the upper burr carrier of the DF rests on springs, wouldn't this very force affect the burrs distance from each other, especially if one tries to slow feed the beans? At espresso range this slight change could be a problem. Am I missing something?


 I think this was over att Home-Barista but someone measured the force needed to move the upper burr carrier. It was something like 7-9kg. And bellows that stiff should probably be redesigned...


----------



## Denis S

7-9 kg is nothing. you can generate that much with 1 finger.


----------



## Denis S

Now you can say it's the same design, or 99% close:

🤡


----------



## Stevebee

@Denis S you'll have to print the insert for me as I've lost mine for the Ultra. Currently using the high tech solution of the lid off a can of shaving foam cut to fit. Works, but not very elegant 😂


----------



## basiecally

Denis S said:


> 7-9 kg is nothing. you can generate that much with 1 finger.


 Yeah, some people can do push ups on two fingers. Doesn't mean that you should apply that much force to the bellows for them to work.


----------



## Shea

Hi all!

Talking about 3d printed parts for the community.....

After many iterations later!:









V3.1
Printed with TPU.
Proper helix, better central fit.

I have been using it for 2 weeks before posting my findings:

Flexable filament (TPU 95A) offered:

A reduction of popcorning from beans bouncing off the previously rigid leading edge,

No beans getting stuck between perimeter of part and funnel of machine

Improved shape is giving a more balanced motor with less vibration and noise.

Iteration history:



http://imgur.com/L9PjJFC


Video in action:



http://imgur.com/CCAVnOP


I am always open to any constructive feedback, part can be gotten from here:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4858908


----------



## Giampiero

I hope you are not the kind of person that takes comments as a personal attack.

I can hear a "screaming" sound that means a huge friction, and i can see that the grinds time is definitely much less so a very fast grinds, what i can't see is the result in cup with that ground.

I can tell you that beans could probably worn the helicoid quite soon, because the counter pressure applied to the helicoid is well above your guess.

I did a lot of test in the past, some useful some useless or inconclusive, now i can only pass my experience/result, but i got tired to modify this grinder, so i took a rest.☺


----------



## Denis S

I'm not feeling this mod, the more I use it the more useless I find it.

https://streamable.com/qrx1n6


----------



## naturalganja

basiecally said:


> I think this was over att Home-Barista but someone measured the force needed to move the upper burr carrier. It was something like 7-9kg. And bellows that stiff should probably be redesigned...


 I saw a video of someone checking the alignment by just pressing one finger on the dial at very fine range and it makes the burrs touch very easily, which is why I thought have to press a bellow to release the beans might create inconsistency in grinds


----------



## Shea

Giampiero said:


> I hope you are not the kind of person that takes comments as a personal attack.
> 
> I can hear a "screaming" sound that means a huge friction, and i can see that the grinds time is definitely much less so a very fast grinds, what i can't see is the result in cup with that ground.
> 
> I can tell you that beans could probably worn the helicoid quite soon, because the counter pressure applied to the helicoid is well above your guess.
> 
> I did a lot of test in the past, some useful some useless or inconclusive, now i can only pass my experience/result, but i got tired to modify this grinder, so i took a rest.☺


 No personal attack taken!

I know what you mean about the motor whine, I had figured it mean a greater load through the burrs but didn't really think that it would cause excessive wear of my TiN coated burrs. Thanks, I must monitor that!

The result in the cup has been good for me, at least with getting nice tasting shots from my Gaggia Classic.

Main benefit I have found is just a faster work flow with significantly less popcorning.

I will need to watch those burrs though


----------



## Denis S

naturalganja said:


> I saw a video of someone checking the alignment by just pressing one finger on the dial at very fine range and it makes the burrs touch very easily, which is why I thought have to press a bellow to release the beans might create inconsistency in grinds


 That would be me:

https://streamable.com/?page=2

What you see in the video can be done to almost all grinders. To the ek43 too.

I press on the dial ring, not the on collar that moves the burrs. I am sure once you are close to touch burrs if you imply 5-10 microns the burrs wil touch.

If it's too hard to believe, here is an older video of me:


__
http://instagr.am/p/CCmBYqvh5wV/


----------



## JirkaDr

New font. "It's just ugly for no reason" no longer applies ????. The grinder is from homebarista.be (delivered this week).


----------



## dutchy101

So much better. I really don't know what they were thinking with the font on the original release haha


----------



## newdent

JirkaDr said:


> New font. "It's just ugly for no reason" no longer applies ????. The grinder is from homebarista.be (delivered this week).


 Looks much less cheap! They need to take that warning comment off next...


----------



## HarryWang

After try a lot of time，I've found a easy way to improve the declumper.

You can see the tutorial from the video：






Use the 0.06mm SS304 Sheet for espresso only and the 0.08mm for both espresso and filter .

Hope it maybe useful for u all.


----------



## Ben030

Hi @HarryWang, this looks really interesting! Do you still need to do RDT to reduce static?


----------



## HarryWang

Ben030 said:


> Hi @HarryWang, this looks really interesting! Do you still need to do RDT to reduce static?


 Hi @Ben030，you don't need to do RDT in this mod, you can watch my result in the video. I don't like to do RDT (So lazy indeed) . The retention will be 0.1-0.2 without use the bellow. By the way，I really enjoy your new funnel.


----------



## Denis S

I have to apologize and make a correction regarding the burrs I use.

I got them second hand and they are 64mm red speed brew burrs. They are made in 2019 and the packages/box from ssp back then have absolutely no label on what the burrs are. The new packages have a label on the top right corner saying what geometry/burrs you have.

The difference between 64mm brew and 64mm multi-purpose is little and it can be observed if you stack the burrs on on top of other and see the little gap at the cutting teeth. Or if you look closely the MP burrs have some little flat spots at the edge (similar to ULF 98mm burrs).

Anyway, with the anti-popcorning device (v3) and the flapper/chute with 1 silicone I am more than happy with the results. I did align the grinder and I am pulling 18g doses light espresso with turbo shots in 18-25 sec at around 8-10 from burrs touching. I tried to align the burrs using the marker method but I failed every time, I could not see any rubbing on the burrs, now I know why, cause they are not MP burrs.


----------



## Benreade

Thought folks might like to know that Bella Barista are taking pre order for the solo, shipping next week


----------



## ZeljkoBG

@Denis S first, buy a cup of espresso coffee.

This with your picture is for soses ????










Then solve other problems.


----------



## Denis S

Got some pretty cups here just for you.

got some 100y+ old ones too if you like those better:


----------



## AnthonyTD

> On 11/07/2021 at 19:28, HarryWang said:
> 
> After try a lot of time，I've found a easy way to improve the declumper.
> 
> You can see the tutorial from the video：


 What does "Double sided tape fixed" mean? Did you do an update or do you secure all this with double sided tape? Why note make the sides of the metal declumnpers long enough fo rthe screws to go through them and secure everything?


----------



## HarryWang

AnthonyTD said:


> What does "Double sided tape fixed" mean? Did you do an update or do you secure all this with double sided tape? Why note make the sides of the metal declumnpers long enough fo rthe screws to go through them and secure everything?


 Hi,AnthonyTD. I used a bit of double-sided fixing, as shown in the picture. I also used the method you said before, but it is easy for the ss304 Sheet to shift after the screw is tightened. So I gave up. This modification must ensure that the ss304 sheet can move freely in the channel.

(If i use the 3d declumper like ben030 made instead of the silicon declumper, maybe no need to use the double-sided tape. Thanks for remainding me. )


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

So&#8230; the £1M question&#8230; now that people have time to experience this grinder, find its weaknesses, mods, etc&#8230;

How would you compare against the Option-o? They are pretty similar in terms of burrs and motor, but one is also 1/3 of the price of he other.

I get all the benefits around tight tolerances, feel, usability, etc&#8230; but&#8230; how do they fare in the cup? Are they similar or not remotely close?


----------



## Denis S

Lagom has it's own problems lately and it's not problem free, as some people think. Last month I replaced bearings in a one year old lagom p64, and even so you can still align them better (see the alignment drift if you mount the carrier in 3 positions). It is also not problem free, the new chute can be dragged under the carrier (the zig zag one) or you can sometimes experience coffee sticking at the chute and coming out in logs/sausages.

However it is better build, with nicer looks and feels, better workflow, and the most obvious is sound. Lagom is under half the noise made by G-iota/df64.

As for taste, the taste is a bit different and this is due to space inside the grinding chamber, carrier fins, and the most important, back pressure generated by the chute. If you restrict the chute or design it in some way it will change how much time the coffee spends inside the grinder so you modulate the taste by doing that (cooler/hotter, finer/coarser).

Having both grinders here at one point, both aligned both with ssp brew burrs (not multi-purpose) I liked the taste from the g-iota better. But I had to align the g-iota, print the anti-popcorn device, mod the chute flapper (1 piece silicone, I understand the new units come with the proper flapper/chute part so no need for that). You still have to align it, print the anti-popcorn disc and bare with the ultra high pitch noise it makes. The sounds is above any other grinder I experienced before, with ssp brew burrs. With italmill burrs the noise is normal, but the aggressive geometry from ssp makes it really really loud even with the bellows cap on.

Here is the g-iota:

https://streamable.com/xh7u6m

Here is the lagom:

https://streamable.com/llddr5

Here is the ultra:
https://streamable.com/nkmoy2

Here is the Bentwood:

https://streamable.com/3wp1wk

Here is the ek43:

https://streamable.com/p0xn1f

All videos are mine, made with the same phone in the same location.

I know for some the sounds is not important, but several people told me the g-iota with ssp burrs is really really noisy, specially if you grind at 6-7 am in an apartment, or your family is still sleeping. It's too loud in my opinion.


----------



## ting_tang

Denis S said:


> But I had to align the g-iota, print the anti-popcorn device, mod the chute flapper (1 piece silicone, I understand the new units come with the proper flapper/chute part so no need for that).


 Have you tried 10degrees tilt mod? Wondering how will it affect lifetime of the grinder.


----------



## Denis S

for what? I don't have retention or problems with clumps with normal working position.


----------



## kahawa

I am also a newish owner of Solo (DF 64). I have the mods including anti pop corn, grind selector and basket holder which brings the grind basket closer to the exit chute.

This is my first espresso grinder so I do not have any reference point. But it seems pretty good and partners well with my Cafelat Robot.

@Denis S Has the cup quality increased dramatically (i guess this is subjective!) post the ssp brew burr upgrade in your view - for filter and espresso? Are there any other side affects (except increased noise which I am ok with!)

I like to change things up and would sometimes have filter for a few weeks and take break from espresso. So I wonder if the upgrade is worth it (as early xmas present perhaps 🙂 )..especially for filter, assuming espresso remains same or a bit better.

Thank you for sharing your findings re DF64.


----------



## ting_tang

Tried first time to do v60, and after grinding for it couldn't go back to the espresso range, as dial disk was stuck around mocha range. Cleaned the grinder and it was fine again. Did an additional testing with v60, and I turned the dialer with turned on grinder, which was giving metall scratching sound all the way until I reached espresso range. Is it something normal with changing the grinder settings between brew methods?


----------



## Elegantyak

I am a new to coffee grinders, considering either the DF64 or the Eureka - what would you suggest for a newbie? I prefer the aesthetic of the DF64


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Elegantyak said:


> I am a new to coffee grinders, considering either the DF64 or the Eureka - what would you suggest for a newbie? I prefer the aesthetic of the DF64


 Hi - welcome to the forum. Eureka is a brand renter than a specific grinder. Most of the eurekas - at the moment - are on demand and hopper fed, unlike the Solo which is a single dose grinder.

So, apart from aesthetics, they function rather differently. You also haven't specify which eureka grinder you refer to.


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## Elegantyak

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hi - welcome to the forum. Eureka is a brand renter than a specific grinder. Most of the eurekas - at the moment - are on demand and hopper fed, unlike the Solo which is a single dose grinder.
> 
> So, apart from aesthetics, they function rather differently. You also haven't specify which eureka grinder you refer to.


 Thank you.

I am considering the Eureka Mignon Specialita.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Then you need to figure out whether you want a single dose grinder or a hopper fed on demand. Different things. 👍


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## kahawa

ting_tang said:


> Tried first time to do v60, and after grinding for it couldn't go back to the espresso range, as dial disk was stuck around mocha range. Cleaned the grinder and it was fine again. Did an additional testing with v60, and I turned the dialer with turned on grinder, which was giving metall scratching sound all the way until I reached espresso range. Is it something normal with changing the grinder settings between brew methods?


 the grinder needs to be on (without beans) when changing settings as some fragments may be stuck. Metal screeching does not sounds normal - check if your burr is seated properly on springs(and springs are seated properly on plastic bit).


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## ting_tang

You are right. that's how I made it to work. Adjusting with on grinder. I think that was not metal scratching sound(at least after a few investigation and cleanings didn't find any signs), but the larger particulars stuck between the burrs. When I reach the espresso setting I can adjust back and forward without any issue.


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## Elegantyak

What are some reasons to buy the DF64 instead of the Niche Zero? Aside from aesthetics and DF64 being cheaper.

I have a Niche on order but considering cancelling, my main gripe is I don't like the look of DF64.


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## lake_m

Elegantyak said:


> What are some reasons to buy the DF64 instead of the Niche Zero? Aside from aesthetics and DF64 being cheaper.
> 
> I have a Niche on order but considering cancelling, my main gripe is I don't like the look of DF64.


 Flat 64mm burrs, ability to use SSP and other geometry burrs.


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## Alfieboy

Elegantyak said:


> What are some reasons to buy the DF64 instead of the Niche Zero? Aside from aesthetics and DF64 being cheaper.
> 
> I have a Niche on order but considering cancelling, my main gripe is I don't like the look of DF64.


 I guess you like a thermos flask then rather than a microscope?


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## 30527

I brought my Turin DF64 from the US to Italy with me, not thinking about the change from ~120V at 60Hz to ~230V at 50Hz. If I plug it into the wall and use it, will there be any damage caused to the grinder or to it's internal electronics (if there are any)? Thanks.


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## L&R

You will burn it for sure, you will need a step down transformer to use it w 220V.


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## DavecUK

@CoffeeandDonuts Might do yeah...the grinders not going to work. Buy yourself a step up transformer of the right wattage from amazon.


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## MediumRoastSteam

@CoffeeandDonuts - coming from one of the few countries - if not THE country - in the world where some cities are 110V and some are 220V, Checking voltage is pretty much wired to my brain.

I don't know much about motors and how they work, but if it's an AC motor, most likely it will spin at half the speed. What I don't know is how the capacitors and other components will react to that, or how will the motor will gain the initial torque to spin.

if I were you, I'd sell it and buy the right one.

EDIT: Correction: spin at twice the speed. As for the initial torque, most likely because it's 110V into 220V tension it will blow up instantly. I read it incorrectly initially, thought it was the other way round.


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## El carajillo

As @DavecUK said, either get a step down transformer or buy a new grinder.

110 volt motors / power tools and their other components do not like 240 volts, they throw their rattles out of the pram and make expensive smells. ( sometimes with loud coughs)


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## MediumRoastSteam

El carajillo said:


> 110 volt motors / power tools and their other components do not like 240 volts, they throw their rattles out of the pram and make expensive smells. ( sometimes with loud coughs)


 In this particular case, it's the other way around. 👍 - 220-240V grinder, 110V tension.

EDIT: Correction: I read it incorrectly. @El carajillo is absolutely right.


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## DavecUK

@MediumRoastSteam I meant a step up transformer, but my finger buggered it up 🤣


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## MediumRoastSteam

@DavecUK , @El carajillo - wait. Ignore what I posted. I read it Incorrectly.

Member bought a grinder in the US and took to Italy. So, yeah, 110V grinder, 220V tension.

as Frank said, bad idea. Expensive smoke as soon as you plug it in! Either from the circuit board or from an almost instant burnt motor!

sorry about the posts thinking it was the opposite. This will teach me a lesson not to read the forums before having a coffee!


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## DavecUK

Well he needs the right Transformer, I'm off to play pinball.


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## 30527

Many thanks to you all for the help.


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## natdev34

As this topic has 79 pages it probably doesn't need my input (!), but as I recently purchased the solo grinder thought I'd share my early impressions in case people are in a similar position considering a change.

Context is that I was using a Sage smart grinder pro and wasn't sure if the Solo would be enough of an upgrade to justify the change. The answer to that is arguably irrelevant given it's completely subjective, but a few key things I've noticed:

- the noise level is possibly a little quieter then the Sage, so altho it's probably not a 'quiet' grinder, it's fine for me.

- enjoy being able to use stepless adjustment. Generally had to accept being a bit too coarse or too fine with the Sage. 
- the overall look and feel is better than I was expecting. Think I had let my expectations be fairly low given people had commented it was a bit rough around the edges compared to Niche and others, but as I have no experience of those then to me it feels substantial and reassuringly sturdy compared to what I'm used to. 
- I would say the in cup taste seems an improvement but I haven't carried out a like for like comparison (and probably won't to be honest!).

- I don't mind using the bellows as a means to reduce retention as I simply do that action after I've made my drink and discard the very small amount that comes out.

no doubt nothing new here but just in case anyone is in a similar position


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## dutchy101

Has anyone replaced the burrs on this grinder to the Keber titanium burrs, stocked by Bella Barista? Are they much of an improvement on the stock burrs at all?

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/64mm-keber-titanium-burrs.html


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## Denis S

Lagom announced a 64mm burr inspired by 80mm ditting sweet lab/peak burrs soon. They can be placed in the df64/g-iota.

I also have a g-iota/df64 grinder with ssp brew burrs (unimodal) aligned, with anti-popcorn device printed, spare parts, original box and cast burrs too included that I'm going to sell. The grinder is aligned, can pull espresso and choke the machine (decent or acs evo leva). I did a comparison side by side with lagom p64 with the same burrs and g-iota and all 3 members preferred the taste from g-iota, but not the workflow. I'm in Vienna.


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## Alfieboy

Denis S said:


> Lagom announced a 64mm burr inspired by 80mm ditting sweet lab/peak burrs soon. They can be placed in the df64/g-iota.
> 
> I also have a g-iota/df64 grinder with ssp brew burrs (unimodal) aligned, with anti-popcorn device printed, spare parts, original box and cast burrs too included that I'm going to sell. The grinder is aligned, can pull espresso and choke the machine (decent or acs evo leva). I did a comparison side by side with lagom p64 with the same burrs and g-iota and all 3 members preferred the taste from g-iota, but not the workflow. I'm in Vienna.


 "We walked in the cold air" 😎


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## Russ Evans

That means nothing to me..


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## barrybigtoe

Has anyone purchased one in the UK recently from BellaBarista? Is it the updated model with the new font and clump crusher?


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## dutchy101

@Bladevane did you still have the details for the Solo dial pointer ring? If so, would you mind sorting one out for @Russ Evans please?

Cheers


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## Bladevane

I do and can, so I have contacted @Russ Evansdirectly with details.


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## dutchy101

Top man - cheers @Bladevane - hope all is well!


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## Russ Evans

Thanks Dutchy. All good!


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## prezes

The rings are available again!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265379421658?mkevt=1&mkcid=16&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


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## z4r9

prezes said:


> The rings are available again!
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/265379421658?mkevt=1&mkcid=16&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


 Has anyone tried this dosing ring? Any thoughts?


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## sebna

If my burrs are aligned and I would attempt to change anti-clamping screen to a different one - would unscrewing of the base and all the steps required mess up the alignment? 

Does anybody know?


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## Fat_Ed

Send help. 

My first shot with the DF64 every day chokes my machine… then the next one is a bit slow (36g in 40s) and then the next is too fast (36g in 20s). All without touching the grind setting.

I’ve changed out the stock declumper, aligned the burrs as best I could. I’m WDT’ing and using a self levelling tamper.

I can’t figure out what the hell is doing this. All I can think is something to do with the burrs warming up (although I would have thought that meant things would go slower rather than faster).

It’s reduced me to shell of a man, my food bin to a grainy brown stanky mess.


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## Alfieboy

Are you weighing what’s going in and out of the grinder?
Neil


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## Fat_Ed

Uncletits said:


> Are you weighing what’s going in and out of the grinder?
> Neil


Yeah. Just had another go today. Really bellowed the hell out of it to make sure retention was as low as possible and the measurements seem to confirm. 

I'm using a normcore v4 tamper with a spring, so I also made sure that I pressed on it 3 full seconds each time to ensure it would apply full pressure (before I was going quite quick so wondered if sometimes it didn't fully tamp the puck).

Shot 1 — 18.1g in grinder 18.05g out. 36g in the cup @ 40s
Shot 2 — 18.1g in grinder 18.1g out. 36g in the cup @ 27s
Shot 3 — 18.0g in grinder 18.0g out. 36g in the cup @ 25s

Only other thing I can think of is that my boiler is running a bit high and the first shot that comes is a bit steamy at the start. Will try flushing it better tomorrow. 

But any other ideas/experiments would be greatly appreciated


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## Alfieboy

Weird And what is your machine?


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## Fat_Ed

Uncletits said:


> Weird And what is your machine?


Gaggia Classic (pre-2009), with a PID and so on.


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## Alfieboy

I’ve always found them to be quick rather than slow but that is mad - small boiler too so perhaps flush some through then get back to temperature or release pressure by opening the steam valve


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## Fat_Ed

Today's testing — flushing a shot did diddly squat. Same pattern. And now annoyingly I am out of that bean, will have to dial in another and see what happens.

My only other thought is that the first grind is somehow producing, or at least giving out, more fines...

Shot 1 — 18g in grinder 17.9g out. 36g in the cup @ 45s
Shot 2 — 18g in grinder 18g out. 36g in the cup @ 29s


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## hotCUPPA

Is this grinder manufactured by different people or they all come from the same factory and are only marketed and sold by different shops?

Asking this in regards to noise, are they all pretty noisy or if coming from different factories do they differ? (If so, which one is quieter?)


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