# Basic Espresso advice for newbie please!



## Cheshire Phill (Dec 4, 2013)

Hi everyone, I'm new on here and looking for advice, and I have questions!!

I have a Gaggia Cubika Plus..not used it so much, but have run pre-ground Illy, Lavazza and Kimbo through it, and been quite happy so far.

I drink mainly espressos, but also use shots to make black Americanos.

I'm looking to buy a grinder, and do the "just grind what you need" approach each morning, and am favouring the Gaggio MDF, which looks to be a perfect match to sit next to the Cubika (gotta pass "she who must be obeyed test!"

However, I notice a lot of Classic + MC2 setups mentioned on here.

So, to the questions:

What are the merits of Gaggia MDF vs. MC2 (does it come in black?)

Can I get a non-pressurised basket/filter to improve the Cubika, or does it only only work with pressurised?

I like the crema I seem to get from the Cubika, but have read its made as a "perfect" crema, which is sort of a fake?

Also, I have espresso cups which I draw shots into, think they take about 30ml (weighed as water) allowing for the crema layer - whats the best volume for a shot?

I'm thinking of getting a grinder and seeing how I go, might then upgrade to a Classic if I really get into it all...

Thanks to the aficionados if you can advise&#8230;my first real steps on the "proper" coffee ladder&#8230;and I LOVE coffee!!

Cheshire Phill


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi not sure which thread we are replying to you on now .......







I'll start on here .

Re grinder , for grind what you want, small kitchen friendly . You could do worse than the mignion for sale in the sales thread £200. The sage is new and untried over any reliable period of time , wait for the review one of the learned members is doing on here.

Re cubika ,some of the older models out could swap out baskets ( pressurised for non pressurised ) , so not sure which your is .

Re crema, it may look nice on a pressurised basket , but it essentially forced air like a soda stream , and bears no relation to actual crema delivered in a pressurised basket ( in terms of mouthfeel , texture and taste ) .

Yes the mc2 comes in black , , if you decide you want one , wait for a pre owned model , they come up pretty frequently and are better value at £80 .

Don't decide on a grinder based on colour and or what your wife thinks looks good.







Others will give you options and advice better than me , weight them up and keep positing .

Your asking all the right questions though !


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I agree with Boots about the grinders MC2 and Mignion both compact and both good for espresso.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Phil, it's the portafilter itself which is pressurised not the baskets on your machine, it's very easy to open one up and remove the gubbins inside to depressurise it, google is your friend for guides on doing this. I responded about grinders in your other thread, but yes Happy Donkey do a black version of the MC2, for me the deal breaker with a Gaggia MDF is the doser I'm not keen on dosers on any grinder, and it seems from anecdotal evidence that the doser lever mechanism on the MDF is quite fragile.

As to your question regarding the volume of espresso shots, most of us on here weigh our beans that go into the basket, either after grinding, or if you single dose before and after grinding. We then measure the weight of the espresso output, a pair of small jewellers scales with preferably at least 0.1 gram accuracy that are around £5 from ebay is needed. The reason we measure the coffee that goes into the basket and then the output weight of the shot rather than volume is because you can set yourself a target brew ratio, 1.6 times weight of grinds seems to be the most common one used, this allows you keep a variable fixed for consistency, so for an 18g input you want to aim to extract 28.8 grams in around 28 seconds and keep the time and extraction ratio fixed so you can dial your grinder in to obtain these results. The best way to get consistently good espresso is to be consistent in how you prepare and extract your shot. Most people on here don't bother with using a single basket but use the double one for every shot. The key thing to get your head around with this concept is to totally forget the volume of espresso extracted, this can vary hugely from bean to bean anyway because some will have more crema than others.


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## andyt23 (Nov 24, 2013)

Charliej said:


> ...so for an 18g input you want to aim to extract 28.8 grams in around 28 seconds and keep the time and extraction ratio fixed so you can dial your grinder in to obtain these results. ... The key thing to get your head around with this concept is to totally forget the volume of espresso extracted, this can vary hugely from bean to bean anyway because some will have more crema than others.


Hi Charlie, this makes interesting reading for another newbie - but can you clear up for me, is the 28.8 gram (precisely measured) extraction a different thing the volume of espresso extracted?

Sorry, not being facetious, just trying to get my head around the terminology (I'm sure I think it's more complicated than it is)

I'm yet to pull my first shot, but having taken delivery of my kit today (needs cleaning first), it's time to turn my attention to the method. Cheers.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Andy in answer to your question. If you are measuring the output weight of your shots, the whole Italian standard of a single being be 30ml and a double 60ml doesn't even factor into the equation, the volume of a shot can vary greatly from bean to bean even with the same output weight as the amount of crema can vary hugely so measuring your shot by weight allows you to turn one of the variables of pulling a shot into a constant i.e. if you multiply the weight of beans ground and in the portafilter by 1.6 this gives you a constant relationship between input and output and helps to make your shots more consistent. The more of the variables of the coffee making process you can have fixed the easier it is to isolate any faults in your process as well.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

When I first started my journey, the whole volume thing confused me. Like Charlie says, forget volume.

My process is to weigh 16g of beens, grind into PF, put the cup on the scales and reset to zero, start your shot and the timer and I aim for 27g in the cup in about 27 seconds. It's not always perfect as taste is the biggest factor.


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## andyt23 (Nov 24, 2013)

so, my next dumb question is:

If you have your 16g, and get your 27g in the cup in 27 secs and it till tastes odd, is the only sensible conclusion then the fact that maybe you just don't like that bean ? Is the point to 'do it right', then discover beans you like that work with your method?

Or, do you adjust one of those variables in an attempt to adjust your extraction and improve the shot - is that actually the point of doing the above processes in the first place?

Of course then you'd need to keep notes on individual coffees, which is fine. Or is life too short, and is there actually not much you can do to improve a coffee you just don't like?


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Another variable Andy is temperature. You could experiment with your temperature during routine.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Daren said:


> Another variable Andy is temperature. You could experiment with your temperature during routine.


The tips regarding dose weight, extraction weights and times are guidelines to get you started. You can also experiment with each of these to a degree as this will also change the taste.

What is it you don't like? Sour, bitter etc? Describe what your tasting.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

andyt23 said:


> so, my next dumb question is:
> 
> If you have your 16g, and get your 27g in the cup in 27 secs and it till tastes odd, is the only sensible conclusion then the fact that maybe you just don't like that bean ? Is the point to 'do it right', then discover beans you like that work with your method?
> 
> ...


The dose, the grind and the tamp could also be at fault here, the best way forward is to only change one variable at once, you may get a better extraction from dosing a little higher say 18g, or by making the grind finer or coarser etc.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

andyt23 said:


> so, my next dumb question is:
> 
> If you have your 16g, and get your 27g in the cup in 27 secs and it till tastes odd, is the only sensible conclusion then the fact that maybe you just don't like that bean ? Is the point to 'do it right', then discover beans you like that work with your method?
> 
> ...


Coffee that is well extracted tastes 'nice' (maybe not stunning, but not horrid)...I'm not talking specifically about specialty/single origin/your favourite bean/roaster...I'm talking about typically available, reasonable quality, coffee. OK, espresso is a little more of a hard taskmaster, there are more pitfalls, but generally speaking if you brew a coffee that is awful, it's something that you have done wrong (harsh, but likely true).

BB King once said that there is no bad music, some of it just isn't presented so well...I don't think that translates directly to all coffee, but you get the idea? ;-)

Yes, there may be coffees that are too exacting, or too different from your regular tastes, parameters & protocols that you don't feel inclined to change everything about what you do to exploit their charms - in this case you might decide to return to something you know that you like and get get a good result with. Life doesn't have to be series of exams, challenges & punishment, you can just enjoy what you do & reap the benefits. ;-)

Back to your " you have your 16g, and get your 27g in the cup in 27 secs and it till tastes odd". Focus on the weights, not the time...at least not after about 20seconds anyway. If that 27g tastes drying & bitter, pull it shorter next time. If it's acidic or sour, pull it longer. But keep a close eye on dry coffee weight & beverage weight, consistency is key...but difficult, due to small changes relating to large margins.

The idea is you're trying to dissolve one fifth of the coffee in the portafilter into the drink. When you get into this range the coffee is balanced and naturally sweet. Beans dissolve at different rates in the same circumstances, different beans, roasts & grind settings cause different levels of fine particles that slow down the flow, affecting that dissolution.

A good idea is to take your coffee & before wasting half a bag or more in the machine, try "cupping" or brewing it in a cafetiere/French press...take your time & taste it from time to time over a good while, hot through to cool, see if you can identify any flavours that you like & may recognise in an espresso?

Whatever you do, don't primarily aim to get a certain amount of liquid (e.g. fill your favourite cup, or just copy a shot you've seen on Youtube), aim for a good flavour, it may be 20g out, may be 35g (but 1.5 to 1.6:1 is a good starting point)...if it's too concentrated, but has good flavour, add a little hot water.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Oh, yeah...& don't worry about asking questions, it's a whole lot dumber to persevere in isolation & misery than to worry about taking up peoples time, we're all coffee fans here & have more trouble keeping our opinions to ourselves, than trying to contain ourselves!


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## andyt23 (Nov 24, 2013)

MWJB said:


> If that 27g tastes drying & bitter, pull it shorter next time. If it's acidic or sour, pull it longer. But keep a close eye on dry coffee weight & beverage weight, consistency is key...but difficult, due to small changes relating to large margins.


excellent insight. thank you

Sooo... when you say the above, am I (guessing here, see if I'm picking this up right) adjusting the grind of the same 16g to still make it 27g in a shorter/longer time - coarser being shorter and finer being longer?

And I assume tamping makes a difference too, as it's in the equation. How critical is consistency - do you adjust the tamp or keep it as a constant - must be hard without a machine ?


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Correct.

Yes the tamp is important and the best thing to do is keep the shot prep routine the same and just change the grind. If you didnt change the grind setting you could tamp harder to increase the shot time or lighter to make it pour faster but don't change tamp and grind at the same time!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

andyt23 said:


> excellent insight. thank you
> 
> Sooo... when you say the above, am I (guessing here, see if I'm picking this up right) adjusting the grind of the same 16g to still make it 27g in a shorter/longer time - coarser being shorter and finer being longer?
> 
> And I assume tamping makes a difference too, as it's in the equation. How critical is consistency - do you adjust the tamp or keep it as a constant - must be hard without a machine ?


Yes, that's one way, or keep the grind ball-park & pull different weights (22g, 25, 28, etc), aiming to stay within, say, 20-35 seconds...then adjust grind if you are way outside this window.

Another interesting thing to do is to pull a shot into a few cups, consecutively - the first 20 seconds into 1 cup, then a few seconds each into 2 or 3 following cups. Keep them in order, stir & taste cup #1....see what you think, then add to cup #2...better/worse? And so on...tricky with scales though.


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## Gadgetz (Jun 15, 2013)

Super useful thread, glad I read it, thanks Cheshire Phill for asking all the questions I needed to know the answers to









Love this forum!!!


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