# Can't balance grind against weight



## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

I'm using a Brewtus DB with a 21g VST basktet and a Eureka Zenith 65E.

In order to get 21g of coffee in the basket, I need to grind so fine it takes about 60 seconds to begin extraction. To get a reasonable quantity in a reasonable period of time I end up grinding about 14g...

I've tried a variety of freshly roasted beans.

Any suggestions?


----------



## PeterL (Aug 5, 2015)

Toucan said:


> Any suggestions?


New scales?


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

You sure it's a 21g vst and not a 15 ?

Sometimes I half dose, flatten, finish the dose and then tamp ... Does this make a difference


----------



## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

PeterL said:


> New scales?


Good thinking - just checked them against a £2 coin and an iPhone. They're accurate enough.



h1udd said:


> You sure it's a 21g vst and not a 15 ?
> 
> Sometimes I half dose, flatten, finish the dose and then tamp ... Does this make a difference


It has 21g written on it, so I'm pretty sure. I suppose I could get more in if I do that but frankly I'd rather not.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

thats a triple shot.......personally, I would drop down to an 18 gm or even 15 gm basket......ideally the extraction wants to start approximately 5 seconds or so into the shot, leaving about 25 for the pour. Using those parameters, adjust the grind until you get to within that sort of area


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

How hard are you tamping ? A fine grind does not need an excessively hard tamp. Try filling the basket, strike off level, check the weight of coffee then a moderate tamp, see what weight you obtain in 25 - 30 secs.

If this is still too slow, back off the grind "fractionally" and try again. Try to maintain a consistent tamp pressure and only change / alter one parameter at a time .


----------



## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> thats a triple shot.......personally, I would drop down to an 18 gm or even 15 gm basket......ideally the extraction wants to start approximately 5 seconds or so into the shot, leaving about 25 for the pour. Using those parameters, adjust the grind until you get to within that sort of area


I like to be able to brew into two glasses/mugs at the same time, normally when I make coffee it's for a few people at a time. Even so, if I can't get 21g into a 21g basket, I'm not sure that I'd get 15g into a 15g basket.



El carajillo said:


> How hard are you tamping ? A fine grind does not need an excessively hard tamp. Try filling the basket, strike off level, check the weight of coffee then a moderate tamp, see what weight you obtain in 25 - 30 secs.
> 
> If this is still too slow, back off the grind "fractionally" and try again. Try to maintain a consistent tamp pressure and only change / alter one parameter at a time .


Probably too hard. I'll give that a crack.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

There could be other factors at play... When you grind fine enough to get 21g in the basket what is the grind like? Does it come out clumpy and feel like flour/talc or does it still have a grainy consistency when rubbed between your fingers?


----------



## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

It's quite clumpy.

My mistake - it's a 20g basket.

I've just had a crack at tamping a little lighter. Managed to find a grind where I could just get 20g in there. Tamped quite lightly and made the best espresso I have since my glorious return. I've taken a year off espresso for various reasons.

I think I was surprised at just how little room there is to spare with 20g of untamped grounds in the basket. It genuinely needs to be overflowing - I think I got a couple of grams on the worksurface.


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Just because it says 20g basket doesn't mean you have to put 20g in.

Try 18g


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

grumpydaddy said:


> Just because it says 20g basket doesn't mean you have to put 20g in.
> 
> Try 18g


You should get 19-21g in though. I use a 20g basket and haven't had any problems getting the stated dose in.


----------



## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> You should get 19-21g in though. I use a 20g basket and haven't had any problems getting the stated dose in.


Quite. It's not that I'm trying to get my money's worth - more that I'm convinced I must be doing something else wrong!


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

How's 19g work out?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

if the flow is wrong, then you either have too much coffee in the basket, or the grind is too tight. weigh your grind into the basket by zeroing your scales with your pf on them, then loosen the grind notch by both until you get the desired effect. Once tamped, there needs to be headroom bewtween the top of the puck and the shower screen for the water. Does the screen imprint itself on the puck?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Toucan said:


> Quite. It's not that I'm trying to get my money's worth - more that I'm convinced I must be doing something else wrong!


Basket might have the wrong info on it. I'm leaning towards user error but unless your scales are wonky I can't work out where the error is!


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Can you fit 21g of beans in the basket without grinding at all ... Just while beans ?

and pictures ... Can you post a pic of 21g ground in your basket ... I just don't get where it's going wrong ... I can fit 21g in an 18g vst with a bit of distribution as its grinding


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Can you fit 21g of beans in the basket without grinding at all ... Just while beans ?
> 
> and pictures ... Can you post a pic of 21g ground in your basket ... I just don't get where it's going wrong ... I can fit 21g in an 18g vst with a bit of distribution as its grinding


I'm unsure what this would tell us ? Beans are variable on size - pea berry - Pacamara - all inbetween


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

bean size doesn't make that much difference at all in the test I have just done with this months sssss last months sssss and the unknown giant bean of the DSOL ... I can fit about 25g of beans comfortably in a 18g vst basket.

so my reasoning being if he cant fit 21g of whole beans in his VST then its not a 21g VST .... if it goes in easily, then his issue is the grinding.

Perhaps he is just grind sensitive, after all, using the 49mm La pavoni baskets, I have to dose 6g and flatten then the next 6g and tamp, otherwise it over flows if I try to grind 12g straight in there ...... the speed the grinder chuck out 12g (3.2 seconds) isn't enough time for the grinds to naturally distribute themselves


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It's designed to hold ground coffee, using anything else isn't really a good indicator.

How many shoes can you fit in it though?


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Yeah your right .... Let's use your method then

"sorry I can't work it out"

well your way is easier and requires less effort


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)




----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

A picture of 20g in the basket would be interesting


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This is 20g in a 20 vst at Aeropress setting on the Ek (6)

Still plenty of room after ground in the basket










To solve this please

Post picture of basket

Are you tarring the scale correctly etc etc etc

If the basket is 20g then you should be able to get 20g in at a reasonable grind .


----------



## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

Mr Boots, how much does your 20g basket weigh? - Mine is 34.5g.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

36.2

Tar the basket before adding coffee though


----------



## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> 36.2
> 
> Tar the basket before adding coffee though


I do, I was just curious about the idea that it might be mislabelled. If my basket is almost 2g lighter than yours it might be a different size.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Picture of Basket please - writing on side


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Toucan said:


> I do, I was just curious about the idea that it might be mislabelled. If my basket is almost 2g lighter than yours it might be a different size.


What's the depth of your basket?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

15g basket

20g whole beans

20g ground at espresso 2 on Ek

Still not over Flowing with coffee


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Let's see some photos of basket and ground coffee in it on scales please


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Kind of disappointed no one followed up on the robot in the basket gag .. Any other forum and we would be on page 6 now of pictures of baskets with pointless items in it.

I winced when I saw the picture and thought "oh ok, here we go" ... But nothing !!!


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

View attachment 18992


My 20g vst is useless, won't even take a tennis racket


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

My faith is restored :-D


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

They said "Tamp lighter"


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Toucan said:


> In order to get 21g of coffee in the basket, I need to grind so fine it takes about 60 seconds to begin extraction.


Bit late on this but, I don't get the statement above. Is this related to the fact that when grinding the grounds straight out of the grinder overflow the basket? If that's the case, this can be due to static, which will give it more volume to the same weight. There is no way that 20g of coffee, after tamped, on a VST 20g, will overflow the basket. I can easily fit 20g on my 18g VST and still get a decent shot.

If that's the case, I would grind 20g and grind coarser until you get a shot within the parameters you are looking for.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Toucan said:


> Mr Boots, how much does your 20g basket weigh? - Mine is 34.5g.


Mine is 35.8


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

grumpydaddy said:


> They said "Tamp lighter"


It's a Tor as well!!


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm off to weigh my 20g VST


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mine is 35.94g


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Let's see some photos of basket and ground coffee in it on scales please


Agreed, post a photo of the basket with grind.


----------



## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

Well, photos to come in the near future, but I think I've cracked it!

It was two problems compounded.

Problem the first:

The untamped ground coffee is fluffy. Takes up a lot of space. I was last doing this Summer 2014 so perhaps environmental changes are to blame? If I accept a bit of mess and overflow then 20g makes a fairly rounded heap in the basket for me to distribute.

The second:

I was tamping far too hard.

And so I've just make a series of very nice espressos and cappuccinos. At least my milk frothing skills didn't atrophy.

Thanks to all for your help so far! And for amusing things in baskets.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Toucan said:


> The second:
> 
> I was tamping far too hard.


Not possible. So you can forget that bit.


----------



## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Tamping too hard really means your grind is too fine


----------



## Cirya (Jan 2, 2016)

Not tamping too hard if your portafilter is still in one piece. Grind coarser and tamp like mad (but level). And in between distribute with care, as that might be your original problem as well. See what happens.


----------

