# Extraction time short & not 60ml



## Aisdots

Hi all,

I have the Sage Bambino Plus the past few months. From day 1 I have only been getting a 42ml extraction on my double shots. I have talked to Sage support who advised to try some things - different grinds, cleaning the basket, resetting the timing etc - but numerous different types of coffees and various weights later I am still only extracting 42 ml. I press the button a second time for the desired amount but surely a machine of this standard can extract the exact amount. Anyone else facing similar - any advice?

Cheers,

Ais


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## TomHughes

Can you just pull it manually?


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## Dalerst

Aisdots said:


> resetting the timing etc


 Whats your extraction time set at? as @TomHughes says you can pull the shot manually, then stop it when you get 60ml in the cup


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## TomHughes

I always do manual. 
out of the box my BP never hit 60 on the double. Always around 30-40. 
I don't think the volumetric works!


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## trendsocke

I have the very same problem and therefore only extract manually. Once I settle on a specific bean I will program the extraction time so that I get 60ml out of it.


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## Dalerst

trendsocke said:


> I have the very same problem and therefore only extract manually. Once I settle on a specific bean I will program the extraction time so that I get 60ml out of it.


 You will struggle to get 60ml out of it every time! even if you program it to, several factors with make it change on a timer machine, tamp, beans, grind etc.

I have the touch and always do a manual shot after spending too much time and effort trying to set it to pull 60ml in 25-27 seconds, set of scales and a manual setting all the way.


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## facboy

i'd always assumed it was set to do 60mL of water out of the shower screen. when i measured mine that was more or less the amount that came out without portafilter and basket attached. some variable amount is left in the basket/coffee grounds. given that the in/out ratio people tend to aim for is 1:2, and the basket holds 18-19g, you'd probably not want 60mL out anyway, ideally?


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## 24774

Dalerst said:


> You will struggle to get 60ml out of it every time! even if you program it to, several factors with make it change on a timer machine, tamp, beans, grind etc.
> 
> I have the touch and always do a manual shot after spending too much time and effort trying to set it to pull 60ml in 25-27 seconds, set of scales and a manual setting all the way.


 Hi, really sorry, me again! I'm confused about these ratios and ml still. When people say 1:2 ratio, 18g in, 36g out, is that using the double (big) basket and pressing the single cup button (on the Sage) or pressing the double cup button? I'm using 18-19g in the unpressurised (single wall) large (double?) basket, it's running about 25seconds on the current grind setting and I'm getting 55ml approx. Is that what I should be getting? Or using 18g in a double shot basket I should still be aiming for 36g?


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## TomHughes

CocoLoco said:


> Hi, really sorry, me again! I'm confused about these ratios and ml still. When people say 1:2 ratio, 18g in, 36g out, is that using the double (big) basket and pressing the single cup button (on the Sage) or pressing the double cup button? I'm using 18-19g in the unpressurised (single wall) large (double?) basket, it's running about 25seconds on the current grind setting and I'm getting 55ml approx. Is that what I should be getting? Or using 18g in a double shot basket I should still be aiming for 36g?


 Depends on the coffee and your tastes.

Not a hard and fast rule but darker roasts tend to taste better around 1:2 or even less, I run mine at 1:1.5

Lighter roasts are harder to extract, so often require a longer ratio to improve taste, so you might try 1:3 or even 1:4.

I'd always use a manual setting as you want control over the pre-infusion too. Again I give darker roasts less pre-infusion.

Then run for as long as it takes to get the desired weight in the cup.


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## -Mac

How hard are you tamping? The finer the grind and the harder the tamp, the less output you will tend to get.


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## Dalerst

CocoLoco said:


> Hi, really sorry, me again! I'm confused about these ratios and ml still. When people say 1:2 ratio, 18g in, 36g out, is that using the double (big) basket and pressing the single cup button (on the Sage) or pressing the double cup button? I'm using 18-19g in the unpressurised (single wall) large (double?) basket, it's running about 25seconds on the current grind setting and I'm getting 55ml approx. Is that what I should be getting? Or using 18g in a double shot basket I should still be aiming for 36g?


 This all depends on how you like your coffee. A standard single shot is normally 30ml in the cup a double 60ml, this is what you would get from a coffee shop if you ordered a double espresso. I started with this then tailored it to my taste.

I now general work on 18g in and 45g out in 30 seconds

Have a look on YouTube you will find a lot of helpful video's on there.


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## MWJB

CocoLoco said:


> Hi, really sorry, me again! I'm confused about these ratios and ml still. When people say 1:2 ratio, 18g in, 36g out, is that using the double (big) basket and pressing the single cup button (on the Sage) or pressing the double cup button? I'm using 18-19g in the unpressurised (single wall) large (double?) basket, it's running about 25seconds on the current grind setting and I'm getting 55ml approx. Is that what I should be getting? Or using 18g in a double shot basket I should still be aiming for 36g?


 Stop!

It's probably best to brew manually, stopping the shot yourself, so that you end up with the target weight in the cup (you may have to stop the pump a little early, so drips don't take you too far over).

Anyhow...assuming you're still going to use the dosed button. How does the 18g:55g shot taste? Taste is why we are doing this after all. If it's not good, why do you think that is?

Is a 1:2 ratio what you normally drink?


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## 24774

-Mac said:


> How hard are you tamping? The finer the grind and the harder the tamp, the less output you will tend to get.


 That's the thing, I can't tamp much harder really. Grind is on 1 (very fine) but I'll be adjusting the burrs on the weekend so I will be able to go finer.


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## 24774

TomHughes said:


> Depends on the coffee and your tastes.
> 
> Not a hard and fast rule but darker roasts tend to taste better around 1:2 or even less, I run mine at 1:1.5
> 
> Lighter roasts are harder to extract, so often require a longer ratio to improve taste, so you might try 1:3 or even 1:4.
> 
> I'd always use a manual setting as you want control over the pre-infusion too. Again I give darker roasts less pre-infusion.
> 
> Then run for as long as it takes to get the desired weight in the cup.


 I'm getting 1:3 for something that should be 1:2. Grind is very fine (although will be finer on weekend), tamp is hard, amount is 19.5g max. But I'm just running the water. From what you're saying I'll keep the aforementioned criteria the same and run it manually and stop when I get about 38g in cup, see what that's like. Thanks.


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## 24774

Dalerst said:


> This all depends on how you like your coffee. A standard single shot is normally 30ml in the cup a double 60ml, this is what you would get from a coffee shop if you ordered a double espresso. I started with this then tailored it to my taste.
> 
> I now general work on 18g in and 45g out in 30 seconds
> 
> Have a look on YouTube you will find a lot of helpful video's on there.


 'A standard single shot is normally 30ml in the cup a double 60ml'

'I now general work on 18g in and 45g out in 30 seconds'

That's great thanks, so when people say they are getting 36g out, that's a just over a single shot. Me getting 54g is normal for what I'm doing it seems, trying to get a double.


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## 24774

MWJB said:


> Stop!
> 
> It's probably best to brew manually, stopping the shot yourself, so that you end up with the target weight in the cup (you may have to stop the pump a little early, so drips don't take you too far over).
> 
> Anyhow...assuming you're still going to use the dosed button. How does the 18g:55g shot taste? Taste is why we are doing this after all. If it's not good, why do you think that is?
> 
> Is a 1:2 ratio what you normally drink?


 'Is a 1:2 ratio what you normally drink?'

I don't have a normal as I've just started. I've just been wondering how I get 54ml as standard when everyone else get 36g (using 18g and 25-30seconds). I've been thinking I need to use 18/19g but couldn't see how I would stretch to 25seconds as I've have36g in about 15seconds, way too short a time. Seems I need to slow down the whole thing if I want to achieve that. I assume that would be by grinding finer, maybe upping dose a little.

'How does the 18g:55g shot taste?' - Not bad, but I'm wondering what a 'proper shot' would be like. I don't seem to get that long dark pour at the start, it seems to be over to quickly. It can be a bit bitter which is over extraction and too much liquid right? So I need to bring amount of water going though it down (or the speed at which water goes through the puck) whilst keeping time about the same it seems.

On weekend I have a new 1kg bag, so I'm going to dial that in best I can and once I kind of know what it likes, I can experiment with it. It's a 1kg Caravan I was given free so don't feel to bad about using it to work this out


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## MWJB

CocoLoco said:


> 'Is a 1:2 ratio what you normally drink?'
> 
> I don't have a normal as I've just started. I've just been wondering how I get 54ml as standard when everyone else get 36g (using 18g and 25-30seconds). I've been thinking I need to use 18/19g but couldn't see how I would stretch to 25seconds as I've have36g in about 15seconds, way too short a time. Seems I need to slow down the whole thing if I want to achieve that. I assume that would be by grinding finer, maybe upping dose a little.
> 
> 'How does the 18g:55g shot taste?' - Not bad, but I'm wondering what a 'proper shot' would be like. I don't seem to get that long dark pour at the start, it seems to be over to quickly. It can be a bit bitter which is over extraction and too much liquid right? So I need to bring amount of water going though it down (or the speed at which water goes through the puck) whilst keeping time about the same it seems.
> 
> On weekend I have a new 1kg bag, so I'm going to dial that in best I can and once I kind of know what it likes, I can experiment with it. It's a 1kg Caravan I was given free so don't feel to bad about using it to work this out


 There's no "standard" there's just what people do, what they can do with the gear they have, what is realistic. If you're just starting, I'd aim a bit weaker, so flavours/faults are easier to taste. Ratio (1:2, 1:3, 1:4) sets the strength, not the taste, nor the quality.If the shots are too weak, go shorter on ratio.

If you are using the pre-programming, you might not have the luxury of being being so picky about ratio.

If 18:55g tastes not bad, it must be fairly "proper" Drink a few more, see if you can work out anything that you think is a fault? Don't assume over-extraction...it might be, but it's a certain kind of bitterness, not all bitterness. To get the extraction down you grind coarser, or pull less shot in the cup. If your shot is quick, it might not be over, if you don't like the look of the shot, focus on the scales, not the thing you don't like the look of 

1kg to dial in would be a sad waste, you said your coffee is "not bad", maybe stay there a bit, enjoying the coffee you make, move on if there's something you need to fix.


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## -Mac

Try tamping less hard. Try a couple of pounds of pressure and see what difference it makes.


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## Mrboots2u

-Mac said:


> Try tamping less hard. Try a couple of pounds of pressure and see what difference it makes.


 Personally i try not ti use tamp to drive contact time , its hard to quantify and really doesnt effect it as much as you think.

If grinding finer isnt an option then try adding a little more coffee to the dose as a last alternative


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## -Mac

The BE can be sensitive to tamp pressure, I find. He said he can't tamp much harder. That'll prevent flow (which is some of his problem with getting a short shot out, as it'll cause resistance to the water coming out which will drive the pressure up which will make things even worse).


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## Mrboots2u

-Mac said:


> The BE can be sensitive to tamp pressure, I find. He said he can't tamp much harder. That'll prevent flow (which is some of his problem with getting a short shot out, as it'll cause resistance to the water coming out which will drive the pressure up which will make things even worse).


 Sorry mis read, then drop the dose.

No machine is that variable to tamp pressure tbh , having done a slew of shots at no tamp, 5lbs 10lbs etc it doesnt drive contact time as much as you think , its more how you level it that does.


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## 24774

MWJB said:


> There's no "standard" there's just what people do, what they can do with the gear they have, what is realistic. nor the quality.If the shots are too weak, go shorter on ratio.
> 
> If you are using the pre-programming, you might not have the luxury of being being so picky about ratio.
> 
> If 18:55g tastes not bad, it must be fairly "proper" Drink a few more, see if you can work out anything that you think is a fault? Don't assume over-extraction...it might be, but it's a certain kind of bitterness, not all bitterness. To get the extraction down you grind coarser, or pull less shot in the cup. If your shot is quick, it might not be over, if you don't like the look of the shot, focus on the scales, not the thing you don't like the look of ?
> 
> 1kg to dial in would be a sad waste, you said your coffee is "not bad", maybe stay there a bit, enjoying the coffee you make, move on if there's something you need to fix.


 'If you're just starting, I'd aim a bit weaker, so flavours/faults are easier to taste. Ratio (1:2, 1:3, 1:4) sets the strength, not the taste.' - That's interesting, I hadn't thought about it like that.

'1kg to dial in' - I'm hoping it won't take the whole bag! It's just with small bags I don't experiment, if it's OK I leave it as I feel like I'm wasting it if I change things too much. But I won't improve that way. A 1kg bag of the same stuff makes me feel like a few 'wasted' coffees (which are never actually wasted, I drink them all), is OK.


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## Joe shorrock

-Mac said:


> The BE can be sensitive to tamp pressure, I find. He said he can't tamp much harder. That'll prevent flow (which is some of his problem with getting a short shot out, as it'll cause resistance to the water coming out which will drive the pressure up which will make things even worse).


 Hi Mac, bit off topic and random, you got a BE and a niche?


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## -Mac

Yep


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## El_Mussi

Hi - Having a similar problem with a new BE. I'm also new - so figuring that i'm doing something wrong

Was trying to dial in today. Week old beans weighed 18g. Cannot get more than 12 seconds to get to a 36g yield out the otherend. (12 seconds from after pre-infusion i.e. when coffee starts to pour - is this wrong?)

I've ground as fine as the machine will go.

The strange thing is that changing the grind had very little impact on the extraction time at all.

Any help or hints appreciated


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## Marcros

how long from pressing the button to 36 in the cup (ie including pre-infusion)?

how does it taste?


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## 24774

El_Mussi said:


> Hi - Having a similar problem with a new BE. I'm also new - so figuring that i'm doing something wrong
> 
> Was trying to dial in today. Week old beans weighed 18g. Cannot get more than 12 seconds to get to a 36g yield out the otherend. (12 seconds from after pre-infusion i.e. when coffee starts to pour - is this wrong?)
> 
> I've ground as fine as the machine will go.
> 
> The strange thing is that changing the grind had very little impact on the extraction time at all.
> 
> Any help or hints appreciated


 12 seconds pour + 8 seconds (-ish?) pre-infusion time? You're at 20 seconds, not a million miles away. I'm at 25 seconds and can't get less than 55ml whatever I do! (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, see early posts on this thread).

Is pressure OK? Where is it?

Things to do - alter weight. See what 18.5g, 19g, 19.5g etc does. Try and make distribution and tamp consistent.

The machine does go finer if you change the top burr setting (that is inside the machine, not the setting on the side). I did that today (it's factory set at 6, I put it down to 3) and got a better result with the coffee I'm using.


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## El_Mussi

CocoLoco said:


> 12 seconds pour + 8 seconds (-ish?) pre-infusion time? You're at 20 seconds, not a million miles away. I'm at 25 seconds and can't get less than 55ml whatever I do! (Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, see early posts on this thread).
> 
> Is pressure OK? Where is it?
> 
> Things to do - alter weight. See what 18.5g, 19g, 19.5g etc does. Try and make distribution and tamp consistent.
> 
> The machine does go finer if you change the top burr setting (that is inside the machine, not the setting on the side). I did that today (it's factory set at 6, I put it down to 3) and got a better result with the coffee I'm using.


 Hi thanks for quick response- I've adjusted the top burr to 2 and the side setting all the way down to the finest and still having problems - taste and time. Attempted more weight too but reached the limit of what will fit the basket. (I've used a lot of beans trying to dial it).

Reluctant to adjust the top down to one given that i presume that adjustment is primarily there to allow for play as the machine gets older.

Friend has same machine and has never touched the top burr setting - attached are the pics of mine and his grinds at side setting 7 . I know that there will be a difference with beans (mine are 10 day old union )but considering the huge adjustment mine appears to be way too coarse.

I'm tempted to call Sage and see what they say


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## 24774

El_Mussi said:


> Hi thanks for quick response- I've adjusted the top burr to 2 and the side setting all the way down to the finest and still having problems - taste and time. Attempted more weight too but reached the limit of what will fit the basket. (I've used a lot of beans trying to dial it).
> 
> Reluctant to adjust the top down to one given that i presume that adjustment is primarily there to allow for play as the machine gets older.
> 
> Friend has same machine and has never touched the top burr setting - attached are the pics of mine and his grinds at side setting 7 . I know that there will be a difference with beans (mine are 10 day old union )but considering the huge adjustment mine appears to be way too coarse.
> 
> I'm tempted to call Sage and see what they say
> 
> View attachment 38011
> 
> 
> View attachment 38012


 Union from supermarket? And your friend is using fresh beans? That's a world of difference, maybe someone with more knowledge can tell us if that effects grind size that much.

I'd use fresh beans and compare them to your Union grind before ringing Sage.


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## El_Mussi

Hi there - union mail order from them direct and vs fresh yes. I've tried different beans too roasted last week. I'm absolutely stumped as thought that with the very finest setting that the grinder could offer I'd be able to force a time longer than 30s. But the longest I've had is 20. I've filmed myself and method and shared and apparently doing nothing wrong.  Even if I was you'd imagine I could clog it right?


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## MWJB

El_Mussi said:


> Hi there - union mail order from them direct and vs fresh yes. I've tried different beans too roasted last week. I'm absolutely stumped as thought that with the very finest setting that the grinder could offer I'd be able to force a time longer than 30s. But the longest I've had is 20. I've filmed myself and method and shared and apparently doing nothing wrong.  Even if I was you'd imagine I could clog it right?


 Then your grind is too coarse. The only reason you are not going finer is because you don't want to, for reasons that are not obvious to anyone else but you.


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## El_Mussi

MWJB said:


> Then your grind is too coarse. The only reason you are not going finer is because you don't want to, for reasons that are not obvious to anyone else but you.


 I'm almost certain the you're correct and a skim of your blog shows that you're an expert and so you must be used to that feeling. I know very little. You win please don't tell my wife or kids


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## -Mac

I'd expect a grind like yours from a BE grinder in the coarsest 3/4 range.


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## MWJB

El_Mussi said:


> I'm almost certain the you're correct and a skim of your blog shows that you're an expert and so you must be used to that feeling. I know very little. You win please don't tell my wife or kids


 It's not about winning/losing, it's about following evidence & logic 

We all have to let go of things we think to move forward, if those things physically hold us back.


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## BunkMuffin

MWJB said:


> Then your grind is too coarse. The only reason you are not going finer is because you don't want to, for reasons that are not obvious to anyone else but you.


 I couldn't have put it better myself.

I'm glad to see whatever bitterness that used to exist in you due not "winning the day" in this forum since 22/11/19 seems to have eroded and you are now giving people helpful and articulate assistance to their coffee related woes.

Never change my coffee loving sweetheart. Never change.


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## El_Mussi

MWJB said:


> It's not about winning/losing, it's about following evidence & logic ?
> 
> We all have to let go of things we think to move forward, if those things physically hold us back.


 Do you have any practical advice based on any evidence or logic?


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## MWJB

El_Mussi said:


> Do you have any practical advice based on any evidence or logic?


 Yes, you gave it to me here:



El_Mussi said:


> I'm absolutely stumped as thought that with the very finest setting that the grinder could offer I'd be able to force a time longer than 30s. But the longest I've had is 20.


 A 20s shot might be OK at a very long ratio, like perhaps 1:6, but that seems a lot more espresso than you're aiming for. To extract normally at 1:2 (I think that's maybe a bit short but that's up to you) you need to grind finer.


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## El_Mussi

MWJB said:


> Yes, you gave it to me here:
> 
> A 20s shot might be OK at a very long ratio, like perhaps 1:6, but that seems a lot more espresso than you're aiming for. To extract normally at 1:2 (I think that's maybe a bit short but that's up to you) you need to grind finer.


 I realise this - and also realised as stated above that my 2 day old machine will not grind finer even on the finest setting. Thanks though. I'll leave you to your forum


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## MWJB

El_Mussi said:


> I realise this - and also realised as stated above that my 2 day old machine will not grind finer even on the finest setting. Thanks though. I'll leave you to your forum


 You came here looking for advice, you have it but you don't like it. Too bad.

Grow up, adjust your top burr, see if it helps.


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## cuprajake

Which basket are you using ? Is it a pressurised on no pressure one


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## BunkMuffin

MWJB said:


> You came here looking for advice, you have it but you don't like it. Too bad.
> 
> Grow up, adjust your top burr, see if it helps.


 No doubt you hear voices in your head telling you no one likes you.

These voices are lying. Never change...


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## MWJB

BunkMuffin said:


> No doubt you hear voices in your head telling you no one likes you.


 I do, I do...but then I turn round & there's your jaw flapping. If you can stop it, then the shit might not fall out so much.


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## kloud

The Bambino Plus is setup to extract a certain volume. I also was getting about 40-45 ml out of the box. The manual tells you how to program whatever volume you prefer. Once you enter program mode (hold both shot buttons down for 2 sec...they will blink a couple of times). Press the 2 shot button and hold for as long as you want pre-infusion. Watch a shot glass fill until desired amount. press button to stop.

I have mine at 8-10 sec pre-infuse (depends on grind, erc.), then stops once it gets to 60 ml. Doesn't seem to matter if I grind my coffee or my wife grinds her decaf...still get the programmed 60 ml. Different times, though (so can play with other factors to adjust time).


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## ajohn

kloud said:


> The Bambino Plus is setup to extract a certain volume. I also was getting about 40-45 ml out of the box. The manual tells you how to program whatever volume you prefer. Once you enter program mode (hold both shot buttons down for 2 sec...they will blink a couple of times). Press the 2 shot button and hold for as long as you want pre-infusion. Watch a shot glass fill until desired amount. press button to stop.
> 
> I have mine at 8-10 sec pre-infuse (depends on grind, erc.), then stops once it gets to 60 ml. Doesn't seem to matter if I grind my coffee or my wife grinds her decaf...still get the programmed 60 ml. Different times, though (so can play with other factors to adjust time).


 Well done - you and me seem to be the only people who achieve it or perhaps loads do so don't post.

There are reasons why people might not though.


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## TraceyRBurns

How can I manually extract from this machine without using the presets?


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## MediumRoastSteam

TraceyRBurns said:


> How can I manually extract from this machine without using the presets?


 Read the post above. You can always set to a much longer time and stop the shots manually.


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## facboy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Read the post above. You can always set to a much longer time and stop the shots manually.


 or just use the built in manual mode. hold the button down until your desired pre-infusion time has passed (or the machine will end pre-infusion by itself after 7-8 seconds), then let the button go. it will continue extracting, press the button once more when you want it to stop.

i think it behaves like the programming mode, except you're not actually setting a program.


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## Davebo

kloud said:


> The Bambino Plus is setup to extract a certain volume. I also was getting about 40-45 ml out of the box. The manual tells you how to program whatever volume you prefer. Once you enter program mode (hold both shot buttons down for 2 sec...they will blink a couple of times). Press the 2 shot button and hold for as long as you want pre-infusion. Watch a shot glass fill until desired amount. press button to stop.
> 
> I have mine at 8-10 sec pre-infuse (depends on grind, erc.), then stops once it gets to 60 ml. Doesn't seem to matter if I grind my coffee or my wife grinds her decaf...still get the programmed 60 ml. Different times, though (so can play with other factors to adjust time).


 I didn't realise you could adjust the pre-infuse. I've only ever set the volume. Note to self - read manual properly.

Thanks.


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## dslukas47

Aisdots said:


> Hi all, I have the Sage Bambino Plus the past few months. From day 1 I have only been getting a 42ml extraction on my double shots. I have talked to Sage support who advised to try some things - different grinds, cleaning the basket, resetting the timing etc - but numerous different types of coffees and various weights later I am still only extracting 42 ml. I press the button a second time for the desired amount but surely a machine of this standard can extract the exact amount. Anyone else facing similar - any advice? Cheers, Ais


 I have the same machine .I use 18 grams of finly groud coffee ( Third long slash on a Smug grinder) reset the water to 13 seconds from pressing the double shot button..( Note ) i run the water 3 times before loading the portifilter as it usually times 15 ,Then 14 seconds before the machine will accurately give you the 13 seconds you set it for.Last 2 times with your porifilter and basket empty. Into your glass-below..Now the shower screen and porifilter are warmed up as is your glass below.Grind coffee in your porifilter.I have a funnel on mine to avoid a mess and easily catch the coffee.Once the coffee is in the portifilter i use a needle distribution tool ,then a circular distribution swival and tamp,i cover it with a screen ( which evens out water distribution and protects the shower screen.) I load my bottomless. Portifilter and precision basket with the .ground coffee ..I put a coffee scale under the porifilter with my glass.When i hit the 2 shot button i hit the timer on the scale..usually i get 9 seconds for first drip,19 seconds total time and close to 36-38 grams of weight. Its frustrating iknow .The upgrades i mentioned all help ,ever little thing makes a small diifference.Good fortune write to tell me if this helped! 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻


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## ajohn

The question asked sometimes crops up from espresso drinkers. They want a single of 30ml or a 60ml double. I drink americano so don't have that problem. They are always topped up to ~280ml and bean flavors can still be appreciated. The initial shot does still need tuning to achieve that.

The problem for an espresso drinker is that they have 2 sizes of basket. Ratio is mostly used to tune for taste but time can be used as well - a bit as people who pull manually do. So if you have a say 18g basket your shot size will be set by what ratio produces the correct taste for the drinker. If 2 to 1 that is 36g. Personally I find that higher than that is usually best but even 2.5 to 1 wont achieve 60ml. Odd beans can be used at much higher ratios but the only ones I have found are not fresh roasted and are intended for commercial use. Curiously a pure arabica blend from the same maker needed lower ratios. On fresh roasted some beans may need 3 to 1. Perhaps a touch higher. The only way to find out is to try them.

Getting programable timed buttons to work needs dead consistent preparation. Some Sage machines can also do volume. Excess water goes out of the over pressure valve. If too much goes that way it will not work well. It can work if just a small proportion goes that way. Ideally none going that way but that may be impossible to set up.


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