# Speciality coffee in capsules



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Maxwell has some interesting plans afoot:

https://colonnaandsmalls.wordpress.com/2015/12/23/capsules/


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

One of the biggest barriers to people getting into decent coffee is the process of making " espresso based " drinks . If someone , anyone can nail a simple , super tasty system that matches the £1000s of kit on here then that wouldn't be a bad thing at all .


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

When they tweeted something cryptic a few weeks ago, I had presumed it was something to do with the water. I asked if they were going to start selling it but was told "no". Didn't expect it to be this.

I'm curious to see who they're working with, as the compatibility issue will be key. Will be interested to see James Hoffman's take on this as I believe the second part of his capsule blog posts is meant to be coming soon.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Not a new concept by any means but this will help change perceptions for sure.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

It's very exciting from my point of view. Anything that gets standards up for the masses will be great for all of us I'm sure.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

....especially if people can make better coffee at home with the touch of a button than they can get on the high street.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I purchased some empty capsules a while ago, meant to get my hands on a machine and try them, might do this in the new year.


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

Dusts down nespresso machine,closes webpage for londinium and grinders and waits







opcorn:







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opcorn:


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> I purchased some empty capsules a while ago, meant to get my hands on a machine and try them, might do this in the new year.


I did this a while back, the coffee was worse than the nespresso capsules.

I wonder what capsule machine he was using.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I'll buy unwanted equipment at rock bottom prices when you all jump to Nespresso machine









I agree that simplicity is great, which is why I like bean to cup machines but I do like the "ritual" of making coffee.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Dylan said:


> I did this a while back, the coffee was worse than the nespresso capsules.
> 
> I wonder what capsule machine he was using.


Did you play around much with different beans, grind?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Just the grind, when you have it as fine as you might think you need it it chokes, or just drips out, and when you have it coarse enough to pour properly it tastes watery with little crema.

My guess was it needs a very even grind and a very even compacting in the capsule. Neither thing could I readily achieve at the time so I gave up.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I did make some up, i opened a few nespresso ones and compared weights and grinds, problem is they had say 7g in them, i couldn't fit that in at the same rough grind, only 5g i think...

I gave them to someone to test but he claims the machine would not puncture the foil.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

This wasn't a secret, they've tweeted about it quite a bit over the past few months.

I don't really see it a substitute for geeks or speciality coffee bars, but if it improves the quality and consistency of coffee available at restaurants or provides an easy way of making a good coffee in a busy office it's got to be a good thing.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Agreed, no control over temp and pressure, plus you can only load about 5-7g of coffee on the capsule...


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Ah I hadnt realised the dose was so low. Will be interesting to try some time.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> Agreed, no control over temp and pressure, plus you can only load about 5-7g of coffee on the capsule...


If we are talking about Nespresso... I only half read the original article but didn't see a brand name mentioned, just 'capsule machine'


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I will probably get shouted down for this as it appears to cast doubt on what a "Barista Champion" is doing, must be nearly 3 years ago now I was involved in a project to do this very thing, put decent speciality coffee into capsules. It didn't work for a number of technical reasons about the capsules construction (which is constrained) and the fineness of grind, which is also heavily constrained. I won't say anything more except that I will be surprised if it delivers...even remotely, the beverage we are all used to.

It "might" deliver something for the masses, who knows, but for the higher end consumers like us...I think not.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I think we are all skeptical Dave, BB tried to do speciality coffee ESE pods, dont know how well it did but I dont think anyone here used them!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@DavecUK are you referring to higher end consumers of kit or of beans


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> @DavecUK are you referring to higher end consumers of kit or of beans


There is a loaded question


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Agreed, no control over temp and pressure, plus you can only load about 5-7g of coffee on the capsule...


But do you need control over Temp and pressure if the capsule system delivers?

If you're someone that enjoys tinkering with every variable this obviously isn't for you, but I dare say a lot of people who enjoy speciality coffee would happily do away with as many variables as possible if the coffee was comparable or even close.

As for the grind, wasn't this discussed before in a James Hoffman blog post where he analysed it? I may be mistaken but wasn't it practically a uniform grind size?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

risky said:


> But do you need control over Temp and pressure if the capsule system delivers?


Nope - you want something with as little user input as possible


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

risky said:


> As for the grind, wasn't this discussed before in a James Hoffman blog post where he analysed it? I may be mistaken but wasn't it practically a uniform grind size?


In a nespresso capsule?

We need to find out what grinder Nespresso are using, EK Killer!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> In a nespresso capsule?
> 
> We need to find out what grinder Nespresso are using, EK Killer!


Probably some massive flat roller industrial thing that's the size of a house


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I know it has been said these produce super even particles (is there actual evidence of this with regards to coffee production?), but at the end of the day its still breaking the beans, and its still going to produce fines is it not?

I wonder if they grind then do some kind of sieving, or centrifugal separation... I guess when you are making millions and producing tens of thousands of KG of coffee you can employ some pretty fancy techniques.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

James Hoffmann's Nespresso article pointed to fines/bimodal grind being present. Super even, unimodal, bimodal all include the possibility of fines. But if a certain level of fines is necessary for good extraction, is it fair to still call them "fines"?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

MWJB said:


> But if a certain level of fines is necessary for good extraction, is it fair to still call them "fines"?


Maybe call them mighty fines?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Nope - you want something with as little user input as possible


Agreed, but as we know pressure and temp play a big part, does anyone know what these are on a capsule machine?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Agreed, but as we know pressure and temp play a big part, does anyone know what these are on a capsule machine?


why would an end user need to know..why do you need to know









Idea is manufacturer sets it to get a coffee out within the dose and system they use ....


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Well, Pact Coffee got a successful campaign on Kickstarter regarding similar project:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/600258854/the-best-coffee-youve-ever-made-now-in-a-pod/updates


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Agreed, but as we know pressure and temp play a big part, does anyone know what these are on a capsule machine?


Presumably Maxwell is the person who knows









Like I say tough, if you care about pressure and temp this probably isnt the product for you.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> why would an end user need to know..why do you need to know
> 
> 
> 
> ...


An end user doesn't, and I don't really, but I was asking out of curiosity, do they extract at 18bar? Is the temp at 100c... If so then does it matter what bean you put in the capsule, surely it would not be good?

Mere questions!


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> An end user doesn't, and I don't really, but I was asking out of curiosity, do they extract at 18bar? Is the temp at 100c... If so then does it matter what bean you put in the capsule, surely it would not be good?
> 
> Mere questions!


My son has a Lavazzo pod machine which i've sampled on a few occasions. The capsule dose is 7.1g and pressure is set at 15 bars. The only user variable (on his machine) is the output. On/off to start/end shot. Cost £50.

Measuring with my refrac (filtered samples) typically 1 pod or 7.1g with around 40g out gives an extraction in the 19-21 EY zone and TDS 3.50 to 4%. There are several different blends which vary a bit in intensity. So it's a single rather than a double.

IMO most of the shots from the pods are quite decent - i'm sure nothing to compare with specialist stuff you guys make on here, but better than the usual coffee chains. In fact i find the Decaf better than any other that i've sampled (not a lot i have to admit!).

So specialist coffee pods for machines like this would be a great bonus.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> An end user doesn't, and I don't really, but I was asking out of curiosity, do they extract at 18bar? Is the temp at 100c... If so then does it matter what bean you put in the capsule, surely it would not be good?
> 
> Mere questions!


Capsule machines can make decent enough coffee with darker roasted beans that we are perhaps typically using, so, it seems unlikely that temps would be unusually high. Pressure is less of a known variable on extraction & just because a machine has a blind pump pressure rating of whatever, it doesn't mean the extraction takes place at that pressure.

So long as neither varies wildly (the capsule will also affect both), it should do the job.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Flavour > theatre


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## spune (Oct 3, 2011)

Aside from the above debates, one of the biggest gripes I have with capsules is the waste they'll produce and the environmental impact of using them more and more.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Flavour > theatre


Flavour? Come on Gary nobody here actually drinks the coffee. We just like to argue about the best way of making it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

risky said:


> Flavour? Come on Gary nobody here actually drinks the coffee. We just like to argue about the best way of making it.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

spune said:


> Aside from the above debates, one of the biggest gripes I have with capsules is the waste they'll produce and the environmental impact of using them more and more.


For domestic use (in these parts anyway) the plastic gets recycled, spent coffee goes in the compost.


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## jbviau (Feb 11, 2014)

spune said:


> Aside from the above debates, one of the biggest gripes I have with capsules is the waste they'll produce and the environmental impact of using them more and more.


Yup. About that, Maxwell recently said via Twitter that (a) the capsules will be recyclable and (b) there will be a biodegradable option:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/679933054907985921


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

jbviau said:


> Yup. About that, Maxwell recently said via Twitter that (a) the capsules will be recyclable and (b) there will be a biodegradable option:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/679933054907985921


Just because something is recyclable, does not mean it gets recycled. Many recycling facilities can't handle the recycling of these things, people will simply put them in the normal rubbish bin, they won't bother to wash them out. Then there is the use of other materials within the capsule, which won't get recycled. Biodegradeable is all a matter of perspective... degrades to what, how long and in what environment... most (possibly all) "biodgradeable" plastics break down into small "micro" pieces before finally being "biodegraded"....these small micro pieces can (and do) easily enter the food chain. One massive source is below.

http://education.nationalgeographic.org/encyclopedia/great-pacific-garbage-patch/

Compostable has a different legal definition to biodegradeable, but even then you need to be careful that when compostable and biodegradable are used together they don't mean both, but a combination of materials....the manufacturers will use all sorts of wormy words to try and convince us of things that are not true. There is also a big environmental impact in making the plastic and the capsules in the first place, although I would concede that a portion of the energy is saved because capsule machines can be quite effecient energy users....BUT those machines themselves tend to be very "throwaway and difficult to recycle items.



spune said:


> Aside from the above debates, one of the biggest gripes I have with capsules is the waste they'll produce and the environmental impact of using them more and more.


I'm completely with @spune on this. It's just so easy and convenient for us to believe all the absolute tripe we're fed about the impact on the environment of so many things, mostly people either don't know, don't want to know or don't care.....but the capsules have a truly bad impact on the environment as opposed to normal roasting and packing.

So, if successful we will end up with something that tastes like crap and is bad for the environment (in so many ways), just because someone is looking to make a good profit.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

The possibility of getting good coffee at the press of a button is indeed a frightening prospect. Not to be encouraged. Man the barricades!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I would be very happy to have a simpler quicker solution to GOOD coffee. Call me a heathen.


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## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

The impression I get from reading into it is that nespresso only works with massive, highly controlled, technically complex manufacture of the capsules. The inference is that grind is absolutely critical and not something anyone with home or cafe kit is going to be able to achieve.

Im sure that Maxwell has, like many of us, had a thoroughly pleasant coffee from a nespresso machine and wants to franchise his well earned brand credibility in this format. If it were me if I'd be looking for a franchise deal with someone who has one of the (no doubt) very very expensive machines than can load nespresso pods successfully.


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