# Sage Oracle Questions ....



## Mrboots2u

If by chance anyone has any questions about the machine please add here and ill see if i can answer as part of the review


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## jeebsy

Better than a magic 8 ball?


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## Daren

"Safe Oracle".... If there's no danger I'm not interested!


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## Neill

Does the grinder grind fine enough to control the output? Is that safe enough


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## Mrboots2u

So glad I took this on.......


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## Neill

My question was genuine tho, if the smart grinder needed shimmed, how does this perform?


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## jeebsy

Have the boots minions had a shot yet? How are they getting on?


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## Mrboots2u

Neill said:


> My question was genuine tho, if the smart grinder needed shimmed, how does this perform?


Ok only tried. 2 beans on it so far ...

Essentially a fixed dose .... ( although u can alter it with a little jiggling ) so far I've been nowhere near 0


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## Neill

And what is the dose fixed at?


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Have the boots minions had a shot yet? How are they getting on?


Patricks had a cpl of milk drinks , barista from the hall too....

It's going to work this week now I've been white gloved ..

See review in grinders and machines


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## Mrboots2u

Neill said:


> And what is the dose fixed at?


Doing some consistency tests as we speak and uploading some pics and clips

Will know better tomorrow


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## Glenn

Is the heat-up as impressive as the Sage DB?


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## Mrboots2u

Glenn said:


> Is the heat-up as impressive as the Sage DB?


7 mins and good to go


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## Thecatlinux

Is this a compleatly new type of machine from sage ?

Is the grinder up to the job?

How much are these going to retail for ?


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## oop north

I thought this was going to be a question about accounting software!


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## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> Is this a compleatly new type of machine from sage ?
> 
> Is the grinder up to the job?
> 
> How much are these going to retail for ?


It's the sage DB and has all it's functionality with the smart grinder in

The new bits are the dosing and tamping mech along with the milk steaming arm.

That's pretty subjective and only used 2 beans so far will use more as we go along . So far yes

It's on sale now £1595 ? Two year warranty and white gloves

It's aimed as a choice between semi and bean 2 cup


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## Eyedee

Does this white glove service come as an extra cost or is it included in the purchase price.

Ian


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## Mrboots2u

Eyedee said:


> Does this white glove service come as an extra cost or is it included in the purchase price.
> 
> Ian


Its a free service


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## Dylan

Did you purchase the machine outright Boots or is it a review unit?


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## Mrboots2u

D_Evans said:


> Did you purchase the machine outright Boots or is it a review unit?


Good question should have mentioned that

I haven't bought it, its a review machine , Glenn kindly arranged this

Ill update the thread with that at the start .


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## Mrboots2u

I've now updated the thread with the info that I haven't bought this machine it's a review unit


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## Mrboots2u

Eyedee said:


> Does this white glove service come as an extra cost or is it included in the purchase price.
> 
> Ian


To be fair the guy that came today was spot on

Had 20 years plus experience

Chatted about hasbean and his love of lever machines after the set up bit ...


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## Daren

How does it compare taste wise compared to the L1/EK combo? How close does it come? (Subjective I know - but I'm feeling mischievous)


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## 4085

Pump boy...........


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## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> Its a free service


'free' with the 1600 quid machine


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> 'free' with the 1600 quid machine


Ok it doesn't cost anything on top offer quoted retail price. Better ?


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## jeebsy

Aka included with the purchase price


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Aka included with the purchase price


You win jeebsy ... Semantics either way ....









Included in the price


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## Mrboots2u

Daren said:


> How does it compare taste wise compared to the L1/EK combo? How close does it come? (Subjective I know - but I'm feeling mischievous)


Firstly the ek is on loan at the moment

not running same coffee through l1 and sage

i think it would be fairer to compare the sage to some of the jura machines at £4k plus ( which have less grind adjustability )

the limited milk drinks ive had from it have all been drunk and been pretty tasty , Ive been pleasantly surprised by them ..

Will a £200 grinder do the same as a £2k one , course not ..

So far the oracle has knocked the spots of any bean2cup or auto machine coffee I've tasted


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## Charliej

Just as a point of interest Martin, do you only get the one basket with the Oracle instead of the 4 provided with the DB? It's also nice to note they listened to feedback about the auto on/off from the DB and made it more flexible and also can be switched off, I wonder if more recent DB machines have the same functions with the timer. It would also seem that they have somehow managed to make the Oracle heat up faster or maybe it's just me but I give my Dual Boiler a good 15 minutes at least, although being electrically heated and PID controlled the group comes up to temperature much faster than an E61 machine and should, in theory, also be far more temperature stable.

I can only echo Martin's experience dealing with Coffee Classics Direct , they do the white gloves service and warranty repair and servicing, I decided recently I wanted to buy an extra group head gasket to try an idea out, so I phoned them got put through to their service guys and they sent me one for free after I had explained I wanted to experiment with it and also made a couple of suggestions as well, more on this if it works out at a later date.

Out of interest have you tried it simply as a manual machine not using the built in grinder Martin?


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## Mrboots2u

The machine comes with one double spouter pf and one basket.

Its meant to be used with a fixed dose in one basket, hence it only coming with one.

Don't know about the auto on off feature I'll see if it can be turned off or not.

Haven't tried making a coffee without using the built in grinder.


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## Mrboots2u

Grinding and dosing plus milk steaming posts now added to review

In terms of what is it like in the cup ...

What do people want to know ?

I don't see a great deal of value in trying to compare it to the L1 and EK .

I think there will be some value into seeing. How the staff like the drinks it makes versus say the costa opposite .

But am open to ideas really


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## 4515

Personally, I'm not planning to buy one so my interests are more morbid curiosity.

Agree that comparing to EK/L1 is not relevant.

For me. feedback should be aligned to the target market - ease of use, ease of servicing / cleaning, authenticity of drinks (does a latte resemble latte etc)

And taste - does is make an acceptable cuppa / does it woo folk away from costbucks ?

And how does it compare to its B2C competitors ?


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## Geordie Boy

What about how easy and repeatable it is at changing the things you'd normally care about in making coffee (dose weight, output time, etc) and whether it makes a difference to the drink? Also, how accurate is the dose weight between shots, etc. I.e. how repeatable is it?

Did you survey your staff before giving it to them to see their thoughts on bean2cup machines before the trial? I.e. The Sage has more faff but would they consider it worth it?

To be honest the people I've talked to with b2c machines at home love them because they just press a button and go


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## Mrboots2u

Cheers mr dog

I completely get that the target market may not be people who spend £500 -£2000 upwards on a grinder alone

There are some latte and cappuccino pics on the thread now for people to take a butchers at ..you decide it they look authentic or not









Once dialled in the milk drinks ( with a medium blend ) have been tasty and I've drunk them all.

I'd happily pay for the latte it makes at a cafe .

I'm hoping to do a taste test with the staff at the local cafe it they will let me

Ill do some stuff around cleaning the grinder and descaling at some point also .

It's been a while since I drank or made something from a bean 2 cup , well I say drunk , I poured it down the sink ....


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## The Systemic Kid

Pleasantly surprised by the quality of coffee the Oracle can produce including the excellent milk frothing options. That said, the grinder is inevitably the weakest link. Have a feeling the coffee would be noticeably better if it had a better built in grinder. That said, the market the machine is targeted at would probably find the espresso and milk based drinks the Oracle makes very acceptable.


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## Mrboots2u

Good questions I'll try and answer below and add for things to do



Geordie Boy said:


> What about how easy and repeatable it is at changing the things you'd normally care about in making coffee (dose weight, output time, etc) and whether it makes a difference to the drink? Also, how accurate is the dose weight between shots, etc. I.e. how repeatable is it?
> 
> It's a fixed dose ( you can alter it , with an Allen key ) .
> 
> We care about dose level for different coffees etc would end users of this ?
> 
> Programming shot time is pretty easy I'll add this to the list to do
> 
> Yes changing grid size by 1 or 2 clicks makes a difference to extraction time and taste .
> 
> Dose Is within 0.2/0.3g each time ( test sample 10 weighed doses or varying grind size )
> 
> Did you survey your staff before giving it to them to see their thoughts on bean2cup machines before the trial? I.e. The Sage has more faff but would they consider it worth it?
> 
> Errrr it's not at work yet , they think I'm weird enough already without asking them to do a coffee survey . None of them have a bean2 cup machine .
> 
> They do like a lot of people appear with Costa cups in hand throughput the day .
> 
> To be honest the people I've talked to with b2c machines at home love them because they just press a button and go
> 
> Fair point , trade off with this is I suspect , few more buttons to press , more theatre in making , certainly a ton of more adjust ability if required to make a decent cup . But you could get the white gloves guy to fail it in on your favourite coffee and leave it there for its life
> 
> But it isn't a push one button and a drink appears...


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## charris

A very good effort for sure and there should be a market segment that is looking for such a machine. Personally for my office though - if i were to get a fully automatic bean to cup - I would prefer to get something with "integrated milk capabilities" like what Jura offers. I suspect most people would not bother to get the jug from the sink, clean it, get and pour milk from the fridge and then steam it "manually". Also the selection of milk drinks Jura and similar machines offer is very impressive even though they do not stick real to the true recipes used by the aficionado crowd and have no relationship to what we produce with manual and semi-auto machines.

Much thanks to Martin for taking the time to review this and explain everything so detailed and clear.


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## Mrboots2u

Talking to the white gloves gentlemen I think these are mostly going into people homes as opposed to offices .

While a £1500 it is not an insubstantial amount of money to spend , it's is somewhat cheaper than a high end jura machine but not as cheap as the entry level bean2cup machines (£350-500 ? )

Seems to be those who enjoy a coffee, want some thing better than a pod machine, Want a fresh ground coffee experience , with more theatre and control and better tasting drinks than a bean2cup but without having to become a barista themselves .

Plus something that a range of people can use without all having to acquire skills ( husband , wife , visitors )

I'm not saying it matches that statement perfectly but I can see how people arrive at one .


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## Charliej

Martin just an idea but an obvious comparison to make would be to the dual boiler plus a grinder of choice I'm happy to offer mine if needed.


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## MWJB

Doesn't that sound more like a grinder comparison? Wouldn't a more obvious comparison be Oracle/Smart grinder & Oracle vs DB? Comparing the automation of the Oracle against the manual prep of the DB?


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## 4515

Not sure if this is a fair test but here goes ....

I would imagine that most people who buy this machine will buy supermarket beans. You are currently feeding the Oracle freshly roasted beans

Any chance of you assaulting your taste buds and trying a bag of supermarket beans and seeing what the results are (could even compare to supermarket beans in the L1)

In other words, will the machine produce ok coffee with average beans ?


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## Dylan

working dog said:


> Not sure if this is a fair test but here goes ....
> 
> I would imagine that most people who buy this machine will buy supermarket beans. You are currently feeding the Oracle freshly roasted beans
> 
> Any chance of you assaulting your taste buds and trying a bag of supermarket beans and seeing what the results are (could even compare to supermarket beans in the L1)
> 
> In other words, will the machine produce ok coffee with average beans ?


I'm not totally sure that is a fair assumption...

It is true that the essential bit of knowledge that fresh beans are infinitely better is not held widely enough, but at this level of investment, and in addition to the white gloves service advice I would have thought a good proportion would be buying fresher beans.


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## Mrboots2u

working dog said:


> Not sure if this is a fair test but here goes ....
> 
> I would imagine that most people who buy this machine will buy supermarket beans. You are currently feeding the Oracle freshly roasted beans
> 
> Any chance of you assaulting your taste buds and trying a bag of supermarket beans and seeing what the results are (could even compare to supermarket beans in the L1)
> 
> In other words, will the machine produce ok coffee with average beans ?


I used to like you ......used to .......

But it's a good idea so I'm up for that ..

So I'm currently using a 63mm conical grinder with the l1

I could make it even ish and use the hausgrind for espresso for the l1 ?

Same size burr set

Pick a bean that I can get from sainsburys and I'll try and get one that's half fresh ....

Ill split it 125g each


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## Dylan

Mrboots2u said:


> I used to like you ......used to .......
> 
> But it's a good idea so I'm up for that ..
> 
> So I'm currently using a 63mm conical grinder with the l1
> 
> I could make it even ish and use the hausgrind for espresso for the l1 ?
> 
> Same size burr set
> 
> Pick a bean that I can get from sainsburys and I'll try and get one that's half fresh ....
> 
> Ill split it 125g each


Go for the double whammy and get Costa beans from Sainsbury's









I actually think they may be the best of a very bad bunch tbh.


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## Eyedee

working dog said:


> In other words, will the machine produce ok coffee with average beans ?


That is one massive leap of faith, how can this machine improve the taste of average beans up to OK or is OK just average.

Ian


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## jeebsy

http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/groceries/roast-ground-coffee/sainsburys-pure-kenyan-coffee-beans--taste-the-difference-227g

I actually thought this was ok


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## Mrboots2u

Currently it's got this in it

http://www.thecoffeehopper.com/product/215/the-archetype.htm#.VCraW2K9KSM


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## Charliej

MWJB said:


> Doesn't that sound more like a grinder comparison? Wouldn't a more obvious comparison be Oracle/Smart grinder & Oracle vs DB? Comparing the automation of the Oracle against the manual prep of the DB?


I meant the Dual Boiler not the Mythos Mark so yes what I had in mind what exactly what you said.


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## MWJB

Sorry Charlie, my bad.


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## 4515

Eyedee said:


> That is one massive leap of faith, how can this machine improve the taste of average beans up to OK or is OK just average.
> 
> Ian


I just want to get Boots to drink bad coffee really









But dont tell him


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## The Systemic Kid

working dog said:


> I just want to get Boots to drink bad coffee really
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But dont tell him


At least he's got a reference point, now!


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## Charliej

D_Evans said:


> Is there a point when it 'reaches temp' and the beans are at a stable temperature until the end of the day?


I would guess that power saving mode if enabled along with the timed on off settings would impact on this so the bean temperature under those circumstances, if left on all day I could see the bean temperature in the grinder rising as fewer and fewer beans try to absorb the heat output from the rest of the machine.


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## Dylan

Charliej said:


> I would guess that power saving mode if enabled along with the timed on off settings would impact on this so the bean temperature under those circumstances, if left on all day I could see the bean temperature in the grinder rising as fewer and fewer beans try to absorb the heat output from the rest of the machine.


Could it not, in fact, be the opposite, as less beans are there to insulate their neighbours?


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## Charliej

D_Evans said:


> Could it not, in fact, be the opposite, as less beans are there to insulate their neighbours?


A smaller heatsink always get's warmer than a larger one given the same heat input and the heat produced by the machine while on constantly has to go somewhere and with less bean mass to absorb the excess heat there is more heat to go around per bean.


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## Dylan

But the heat needn't all concentrate on the remaining beans, it will dissipate as heat does. Depending on where exactly the element is in relation to the beans, if it begins to hit air before beans as the hopper empties then this would (at least as far as my mind can see) result in less hot-beans as the heat dissipates into the air.


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## Resseh

hi all!

I have bought the sage oracle and am very happy with it but im struggling to replicate a Costa Flat White (ive tried other espresso based drinks - different beans etc but this is my fave). I have bought the beans off ebay and sometimes it comes close but then the next one might be too bitter.

Any tips on which settings to best replicate one?

thank you


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## jeebsy

Your beans are probably shite. Buy from places like rave, has bean, coffee compass, smokey barn


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## Mrboots2u

Resseh said:


> hi all!
> 
> I have bought the sage oracle and am very happy with it but im struggling to replicate a Costa Flat White (ive tried other espresso based drinks - different beans etc but this is my fave). I have bought the beans off ebay and sometimes it comes close but then the next one might be too bitter.
> 
> Any tips on which settings to best replicate one?
> 
> thank you


What beans are you using

Honestly I'd buy some fresh ones from a decent roaster , the ones form ebay will be almost certainly cheap but stale

Are the ones ones you've bought fresh roasted with a roast date on them or do they have a best before date instead ...

Try something like italian job from Rave or one of the coffee compass blends

Having said that , I've used one of these for a bit , I'll try and help.

With the right beans and its capable of a smoother drink than Costa makes ...

Did the White gloves guy set your machine up for you, go through setting and how to dial in ?

How long have you had the machine


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## Resseh

Mrboots2u said:


> What beans are you using
> 
> Honestly I'd buy some fresh ones from a decent roaster , the ones form ebay will be almost certainly cheap but stale
> 
> Are the ones ones you've bought fresh roasted with a roast date on them or do they have a best before date instead ...
> 
> Try something like italian job from Rave or one of the coffee compass blends
> 
> Having said that , I've used one of these for a bit , I'll try and help.
> 
> With the right beans and its capable of a smoother drink than Costa makes ...
> 
> Did the White gloves guy set your machine up for you, go through setting and how to dial in ?
> 
> How long have you had the machine


My like the taste of the Costa beans. I've tried beans from hasbean and a local a roaster and wasn't so kean.

the White gloves guy was meant to phone before he arrived so I could get back in time from work but he didn't so he only spoke to my girlfriend so kinda on my own on setting it up


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## Mrboots2u

Ask them to re visit for a session as you are having difficulty getting sorted out

They will come back I bet

Honestly beans from the internet won't be fresh and won't be doing that machine justice

Who were the local roasters you visited ?

Where are you based ? If you near me I might be able to help

Sound like you would prefer a darker roast like one of the coffee compass roasts

What are the beans you are using , do they have a roast date or best before date on them .

Until we establish if your using a fresh ingredient it's going to be hard to help you know if that's the problem or not .

But let's try a few questions , but please answer mine re the beans

What temp is the machine reading 93degree ?

Are you using the double shot button ?

How long is it running for ?

How much liquid is coming out ( do you have a shot glass for instance )


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## Resseh

It was a 1kg bag of Costa coffee beans. Unfortunately the bag has now been chucked away -I think the roast date was in August.

The shit temp is set to 93, tamp force is at 5 and 4 seconds, pre infuse is set to 60 power and 7 seconds.

I pour two shots of coffee into two espresso shot glasses to just above the line in 26 seconds.

The grind is set to 17 and it tastes bitter


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## Mrboots2u

It's November .

Costa or not Costa that coffee isn't fresh please get some fresh coffee please

Until you do , you won't be making a drink of any type near the capability of that machine

Rave italian job

Or coffee compass Brighton lane will be a dark roasted italian style blend

So are you making 2 fl ounces or 4 fl ounces ?

Is the line on each glass at the 1 or 2 fl ounces mark ?


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## Resseh

Mrboots2u said:


> It's November .
> 
> Costa or not Costa that coffee isn't fresh please get some fresh coffee please
> 
> Until you do , you won't be making a drink of any type near the capability of that machine
> 
> Rave italian job
> 
> Or coffee compass Brighton lane will be a dark roasted italian style blend
> 
> So are you making 2 fl ounces or 4 fl ounces ?
> 
> Is the line on each glass at the 1 or 2 fl ounces mark ?


the new beans today and they taste amazing - thank you for the recommendation and advice


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## Mrboots2u

Resseh said:


> the new beans today and they taste amazing - thank you for the recommendation and advice


Glad to hear It , fresh beans make all the difference .

Enjoy the machine and the tasty coffee


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## Resseh

Unfortunately a stone was amongst my coffee beans and has lodged it self in the grinder - is it possible to remove the grinder from the machine? I've unlocked the bolt but the stone is so wedged in - the metal grinder won't budge.


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## Resseh

I Have managed to remove it but now I'm worried that it might have blunted my grinder as it sounded horrific


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## Mrboots2u

Resseh said:


> I Have managed to remove it but now I'm worried that it might have blunted my grinder as it sounded horrific


You should be able to take the burrs out and check to see if there is any damage to them.

Sage Oracle Maintenance:


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## mhendo

Got The Oracle over the weekend from John Lewis, great machine so far. Now looking at freshly roasted coffee bean suppliers.

Currently got Drury Coffee, Cafe Cuidado in the machine at the moment, with my old fav "Latina" in the cupboard. Will see if it holds up in the new machine!


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## kcsteveknight

Just joined here today

So hello all

I am picking up my Sage Oracle Sat 20th June 2015 at 11 30

I would love any tips anyone has on latte art

What settings to have the milk on and so on

After I have had the machine a week or so I will give some feed back

Thanks have a great weekend

Steve


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## Jakey66

Comparing this oracle machine with a bean to cup, would there be a difference in taste between the coffees using the same fresh beans? Trying to work out,if this machine is worth £1,000 upgrade on my currently Delonghi bean to cup.


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## Jakey66

Anyone any advice?


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## jlarkin

Do you not fancy trying a separate grinder and machine?

Only a small number of people here, who post much, have actually tried the Oracle so it's a difficult question in that regards


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## Jakey66

jlarkin said:


> Do you not fancy trying a separate grinder and machine?
> 
> Only a small number of people here, who post much, have actually tried the Oracle so it's a difficult question in that regards


Just the the room on the kitchen work top is the worry


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## AndyMo

Got the Oracle a few weeks ago and had Steve here on Friday for the White Glove service, which was excellent.

I had a Rancilio Silvia and Rocky grinder previously and typically used Square Mile Red Brick beans, so have been trying to get the Oracle to produce a decent shot using those. We had issues with these during the White Glove service so I'm hoping someone here might be able to offer some advice. Steve eventually resorted to using some beans (http://www.ccbarista.com/mistura-se-com-brazil-250g/) that were produced especially for the Oracle, which produced an amazing shot with great body and crema. I've ordered these, but until they arrive I've a few bags of Red Brick left so I thought I'd experiment a bit with the machine.

Steve showed me how to alter the dose the Oracle produces so I've been doing that to try and get near the recipe that Square Mile suggest - 19g in a 20g VST basket, 36-38g out, 28-32 seconds.

I can get the flow rate just about right, and the shot is 'ok' but it's nowhere near the shot from the beans that Steve used. Also the puck is very wet and looks like there might be some channelling with some holes appearing.

Has anyone tried varying the dose and/or basket? Did you eventually get a decent result, or should I just stick to the fixed 22g dose and never try another bean again!?

Cheers,

Andy


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## Mrboots2u

You are not gong to get the crema from then Square Mile beans as from the other . The others contained robusta which tastes awful on its own but gives a huge crema.

The two beans are I suspect different roast levels , tastes etc .

Your other beans are Brazilian and Robusta - fairly dark i presume - SQM red brick is kenyan and guats- different kettle of fish .

Ignore looking at the puck post shot , it will tell you nothing . Your looking at what the OPV has done to the puck post shot not holes that are channeling

Soupy wet pucks win there own are not a problem,

Use weight in and out are you are doing , dint put too much store in flow rate and time

Honestly though you are comparing apples and pears in terms of beans i think .

To help -- focus on the balance of taste in the Square Mile , not as a comparison to the other beans. How does it taste . Adjust grind accordingly , but don't use a fixed time or a flow rate to judge a shot or to achieve a taste ..


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## AndyMo

Thanks for the quick reply.

Yes will certainly keep measuring weight in/out. The taste is lacking in the sweetness of the Brazilian bean, but is certainly drinkable.

Just wondering how much the dose was affecting things and if the Oracle had issues with lower doses. Would you suggest sticking with the stock basket and the 22g dose for now? Have you played about much with the dose?


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## Mrboots2u

I stuck with the stock basket and factory settings when I was using one . Lower dose will require finer grind and with some more light to medium roast beans , i wonder how the grinder could

Cope with this . I used sqm ages ago ( different beans ) on the oracle at stock dose and got good profiles through .


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## Wes78

Mrboots2u said:


> Doing some consistency tests as we speak and uploading some pics and clips
> 
> Will know better tomorrow


Did you mention this could be altered with an Allen key? I would like to try reduce to say 17g see what happens.


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## Mrboots2u

Wes78 said:


> Did you mention this could be altered with an Allen key? I would like to try reduce to say 17g see what happens.


I never altered the dose on mine, If you could alter it to 17 g then i would suggest you would need a smaller basket than the one supplied. 17 g in that basket will cuase channeling ...and the grinder will need to go alot finer , finer than it is possibly capable of. @ronsil know ?


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## Wes78

Thanks Mr boots, I wonder if it can be altered and then with the right basket I could use the adjustments on the burrs (1-10) to grind fine enough.

Now knowing that the single basket supplied gives me 11g just made me think it would be nice to have options reference to the dose.

The ideal may be the 2 baskets I have (11g and 21g) with a 17g basket


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## Mrboots2u

Stay away from a single basket in the oracle , the tamper wont be set up to use that.


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## Wes78

Mrboots2u said:


> Stay away from a single basket in the oracle , the tamper wont be set up to use that.


That's the weird thing, It didn't used to be included but is now and is also in the instruction booklet specifically for the oracle. Ive tried it out and it consistently doses at 11 grams.

what do you think?

maybe I should answer my own question and stick with the 20g dose and stop messing about!


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## Mrboots2u

Wes78 said:


> That's the weird thing, It didn't used to be included but is now and is also in the instruction booklet specifically for the oracle. Ive tried it out and it consistently doses at 11 grams.
> 
> what do you think?


Probably the same as any single basket , poorly. They are a pain with the right sized tamper , let alone what the oracle uses .

You could get a IMS basket for 17g is.h. Probably wouldnt recommend a VSt with the sage grinder settings


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## MildredM

Wes78 said:


> That's the weird thing, It didn't used to be included but is now and is also in the instruction booklet specifically for the oracle. Ive tried it out and it consistently doses at 11 grams.
> 
> what do you think?
> 
> maybe I should answer my own question and stick with the 20g dose and stop messing about!


Definately


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## Wes78

Mrboots2u said:


> You could get a IMS basket for 17g is.h. Probably wouldnt recommend a VSt with the sage grinder settings


ive got the white glove guy coming Friday. I'm going to ring anyway see if he can bring a bottomless portafilter so maybe he'll bring one of those if I ask nicely


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## Mrboots2u

Wes78 said:


> maybe I should answer my own question and stick with the 20g dose and stop messing about!


yes


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## ronsil

I have found that the Oracle dose can only be altered by approx.50 gram max.

I messed with all these things originally but get the best results using the supplied basket which on my Machine fills to 22.5 grams.

I use the (1) button set to 39 seconds incl 10 seconds pre-infusion. I have set the (2) button to 55 secs incl 10 secs pre-infusion & use it as a manual control for a new bean

I stop the flow when it reaches 45 delivered grams of espresso.

I have adjusted the tamp to 3 secs.

The amount in the basket depth seems to control the grind cutoff by sensor. I do not think it is weighed at any time.

The whole system runs completely different if you use, for example, a VST basket which is deeper & you can end up with anything up to 24-25 grams of grinds.

Don't try too much at one time.

Stay with the same coffee, IJ is excellent if you like the Italian style. It has some Robusta in it but that is the Italian style.

For IJ I grind at mark 14 which delivers the 22.5 grams into the supplied basket. A few seconds tamp & then lock into the group head for 39 seconds.

The burrs must be kspt spotless & I use the magnetic 'thingy' to remove & clean out the tamper pad. I do that after every session.

Take advantage of you 'white gloves' guy. Have a list ready of things you are not sure about & check it out with him.

The Oracle is a great machine for the money. Its true the grinder is the weakest part but when I got the basics right with certain beans & that includes IJ it is almost impossible to taste the difference between using the 'built-in' & my EK43 (with the newer coffee burrs)

Take it slowly,slowly, persevere & it will come right.

This is presupposing you know the taste you like & are seeking to replicate on the Oracle


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## Wes78

ronsil said:


> I have found that the Oracle dose can only be altered by approx.50 gram max.
> 
> I messed with all these things originally but get the best results using the supplied basket which on my Machine fills to 22.5 grams.
> 
> I use the (1) button set to 39 seconds incl 10 seconds pre-infusion. I have set the (2) button to 55 secs incl 10 secs pre-infusion & use it as a manual control for a new bean
> 
> I stop the flow when it reaches 45 delivered grams of espresso.
> 
> I have adjusted the tamp to 3 secs.
> 
> The amount in the basket depth seems to control the grind cutoff by sensor. I do not think it is weighed at any time.
> 
> The whole system runs completely different if you use, for example, a VST basket which is deeper & you can end up with anything up to 24-25 grams of grinds.
> 
> Don't try too much at one time.
> 
> Stay with the same coffee, IJ is excellent if you like the Italian style. It has some Robusta in it but that is the Italian style.
> 
> For IJ I grind at mark 14 which delivers the 22.5 grams into the supplied basket. A few seconds tamp & then lock into the group head for 39 seconds.
> 
> The burrs must be kspt spotless & I use the magnetic 'thingy' to remove & clean out the tamper pad. I do that after every session.
> 
> Take advantage of you 'white gloves' guy. Have a list ready of things you are not sure about & check it out with him.
> 
> The Oracle is a great machine for the money. Its true the grinder is the weakest part but when I got the basics right with certain beans & that includes IJ it is almost impossible to taste the difference between using the 'built-in' & my EK43 (with the newer coffee burrs)
> 
> Take it slowly,slowly, persevere & it will come right.
> 
> This is presupposing you know the taste you like & are seeking to replicate on the Oracle


Thats priceless information Ron and much appreciated.

I really get a good feeling with this machine, ever since I saw it in the shop. I must admit, the amount of research I did, I was telling the salesman what it could do.

Ive been writing a list of questions for the white glove guy, I hope he comes prepared!

in terms of taste I like, I'm exploring really. I bought some beans (SM Red Brick) from a local independent today and I will be trying to replicate the taste of the espresso I had using the yield figures they gave me. I'm thinking this may be a good way to explore..

Thank you again


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## ronsil

"in terms of taste I like, I'm exploring really. I bought some beans (SM Red Brick) from a local independent today and I will be trying to replicate the taste of the espresso I had using the yield figures they gave me. I'm thinking this may be a good way to explore"

I don't think the info re yield will help you much.

Different machines, different dosing but if what you had today is the taste you really like,change the following factors, one at a time.

Grind level, temp, espresso weight with water quantity. Accept the higher dose weight & work with that.


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## Wes78

ronsil said:


> I don't think the info re yield will help you much.
> 
> Different machines, different dosing but if what you had today is the taste you really like,change the following factors, one at a time.
> 
> Grind level, temp, espresso weight with water quantity. Accept the higher dose weight & work with that.


Thanks again Ron, I will experiment with the higher dose weight.


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## Sweepy

Sorry for the thread resurrection ... what's the IJ coffee mentioned earlier by @ronsil? Recently got an Oracle and keen to try some different beans.


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## lake_m

R



Sweepy said:


> Sorry for the thread resurrection ... what's the IJ coffee mentioned earlier by @ronsil? Recently got an Oracle and keen to try some different beans.


Rave Italian Job


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## Sweepy

lake_m said:


> R
> 
> Rave Italian Job


Thank you - that's awesome news as earlier this week I subscribed to Rave's monthly delivery service


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## kennyboy993

ronsil said:


> I have found that the Oracle dose can only be altered by approx.50 gram max.
> 
> I messed with all these things originally but get the best results using the supplied basket which on my Machine fills to 22.5 grams.
> 
> I use the (1) button set to 39 seconds incl 10 seconds pre-infusion. I have set the (2) button to 55 secs incl 10 secs pre-infusion & use it as a manual control for a new bean
> 
> I stop the flow when it reaches 45 delivered grams of espresso.
> 
> I have adjusted the tamp to 3 secs.
> 
> The amount in the basket depth seems to control the grind cutoff by sensor. I do not think it is weighed at any time.
> 
> The whole system runs completely different if you use, for example, a VST basket which is deeper & you can end up with anything up to 24-25 grams of grinds.
> 
> Don't try too much at one time.
> 
> Stay with the same coffee, IJ is excellent if you like the Italian style. It has some Robusta in it but that is the Italian style.
> 
> For IJ I grind at mark 14 which delivers the 22.5 grams into the supplied basket. A few seconds tamp & then lock into the group head for 39 seconds.
> 
> The burrs must be kspt spotless & I use the magnetic 'thingy' to remove & clean out the tamper pad. I do that after every session.
> 
> Take advantage of you 'white gloves' guy. Have a list ready of things you are not sure about & check it out with him.
> 
> The Oracle is a great machine for the money. Its true the grinder is the weakest part but when I got the basics right with certain beans & that includes IJ it is almost impossible to taste the difference between using the 'built-in' & my EK43 (with the newer coffee burrs)
> 
> Take it slowly,slowly, persevere & it will come right.
> 
> This is presupposing you know the taste you like & are seeking to replicate on the Oracle


The new oracle touch has got me interested again - I can't ignore the set-up and forget repeatability of it which is a big plus for my needs.

Can you tell us how long you've had yours ronsil? Longevity would be one of my main concerns.


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## ronsil

Purchased in June 2016 & going very well.

It does require keeping spotless inside & out. I do take the grinder completely apart after each 'making' session.

As I have said the delivery amount varies with each machine. Mine delivers 22.5 grams into the supplied basket.

Because I so regularly clean it out the dose has never varied.

I do know some Oracles deliver 21.5. Just work to amount you get consistantly delivered.

There is retention & it is wasteful compared to other setups I've had but follow the rules & it goes on producing espressos without variance.

I see no reason to upgrade? to a Touch.


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## kennyboy993

ronsil said:


> Purchased in June 2016 & going very well.
> 
> It does require keeping spotless inside & out. I do take the grinder completely apart after each 'making' session.
> 
> As I have said the delivery amount varies with each machine. Mine delivers 22.5 grams into the supplied basket.
> 
> Because I so regularly clean it out the dose has never varied.
> 
> I do know some Oracles deliver 21.5. Just work to amount you get consistantly delivered.
> 
> There is retention & it is wasteful compared to other setups I've had but follow the rules & it goes on producing espressos without variance.
> 
> I see no reason to upgrade? to a Touch.


Thanks this is really useful.

How long does your cleaning regimen take - do you do it everyday?


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## ronsil

Pretty well everyday but the grinder I take apart after each espresso session.

It becomes a routine & it doesn't take very long.

IMO I think the black one looks nicer but its a real fingermark trap & it does mark around the drip tray very easily.


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## Philealing

Hmmmm. Not had my Oracle for long, about six weeks. Not sure it is performing correctly.

Last week I reset the machine to it's factory defaults.

Yesterday the CLEAN ME display came up so I carried out the cleaning process to the letter. Had two OK coffees this morning.

This afternoon I attempted to make two identical coffees without changing any settings between the two. The first one came out looking ok for a double shot but the second one I had to stop it part way through after it had given me far too much quantity.

Both coffees tasted a bit powdery.

Any ideas?


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## Mrboots2u

Philealing said:


> Hmmmm. Not had my Oracle for long, about six weeks. Not sure it is performing correctly.
> 
> Last week I reset the machine to it's factory defaults.
> 
> Yesterday the CLEAN ME display came up so I carried out the cleaning process to the letter. Had two OK coffees this morning.
> 
> This afternoon I attempted to make two identical coffees without changing any settings between the two. The first one came out looking ok for a double shot but the second one I had to stop it part way through after it had given me far too much quantity.
> 
> Both coffees tasted a bit powdery.
> 
> Any ideas?


Are you single dosing?

Unless we have a weight out ( espresso in grams and time ) its hard to tell whats going on by eye.

Volumtrics will never be exactly the same for any two coffee's which that machine in my experience , can deviate few grams either side.


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## daveandmairi

Hi @Mrboots2u @ronsil

Interesting thread (although I know it's a bit old now). Can I trouble you for an opinion?

I'm new to 'coffee as a hobby' and bought an Oracle recently. I'm generally happy with it but I keep reading comments that the grinder is the weakest part. Just how weak is it?

What would be an equivalent quality of standalone grinder for comparison?

If I was to upgrade, how much do you think I might need to spend on a standalone to make a noticeable difference?

Thx for your guidance.

Dave


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## Marafunman

A Eureka flat burr grinder would set you back around £279 for the Facile...or for £80 more, something like a Specialita. I had an Oracle for a few weeks- and to be honest didn't think the grinder was that bad, based on what i have now.


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## Mrboots2u

daveandmairi said:


> Hi @Mrboots2u @ronsil
> 
> Interesting thread (although I know it's a bit old now). Can I trouble you for an opinion?
> 
> I'm new to 'coffee as a hobby' and bought an Oracle recently. I'm generally happy with it but I keep reading comments that the grinder is the weakest part. Just how weak is it?
> 
> What would be an equivalent quality of standalone grinder for comparison?
> 
> If I was to upgrade, how much do you think I might need to spend on a standalone to make a noticeable difference?
> 
> Thx for your guidance.
> 
> Dave


 It's a small flat burr entry grinder , if you are using medium roast coffee and prefer milk or Americano drink it's fine.

if you want to go into espresso and lighter roasted coffee it will be the weak point Then. What sit comparable to , the sage super are grinder .

Persoanlly I wouldn't get a mignon it's better but imho it a mid point . It there are loads of people who again are happy with this grinder

if you enjoy the coffee it Makes don't stress, don't over think it , enjoy the convince the oracle brings 
If I was upgrading I'd do once , and if depends on the cash and room you have . 
second hand grinders like a super jolly or something new any compact like a niche


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## daveandmairi

Thanks everyone for taking the time to respond.


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