# Help me spend £1500!



## ShepTor (Feb 20, 2021)

Hi, we'd decided to spend so.e money trying a lever machine and after reading think we'll get the La Pavoni pl and a grinder, maybe the Eureka Mignon. Have done some reading, but frankly overwhelmed by the choice and detailed advice. We understand the complexities of the lever machines and are willing to give it a go. Had opted for Pl model due to the size of the boiler and number of cups made. Prepared to spend up to about £1500 for machine plus grinder. Open to advice on machine and grinder. Doubt we could upgrade on the machine for this money, but maybe a different grinder? Any thoughts welcome. Hoping to order them tomorrow!!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Could get a used londinum for aroubd 1300, thar would blow the socks off a pavoni.

@coffeechap is good at locating/servicing them


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## ShepTor (Feb 20, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Could get a used londinum for aroubd 1300, thar would blow the socks off a pavoni.
> 
> @coffeechap is good at locating/servicing them


 We hadn't considered anything else. Will take a look at them. Would tge Eureka mignon still be OK as a grinder? If we can't get one, then what would be your reccomendation for a grinder to fo with the LA Pavomi? Thanks


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

The Eureka a brilliant little grinders. How ever most will tell you to buy a niche £500.

Id say really research into the la pav, i did and found personally it wasn't for me, as much as id love a lever.

Theres also the bezzera strega, but there £1600 new.

Ill probably get flamed though, going against the la pav and niche love on here.


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## ShepTor (Feb 20, 2021)

I'm happy to hear people's opinions. I think any lever machine will be a huge learning curve for us. We accept it may turn out that we won't like it and end up selling it on and loosing money, but we want to try one. Thanks for the advice.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

In terms of coffee,

What do you drink currently? Light or dark

Do you tend to stick to one bean, or swap about.

Will you be going through a single bag or multiple?

Do you drink milk drinks?

How many drinks will you make?


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## ShepTor (Feb 20, 2021)

We're pretty flexible, so do try different beans atm, but would limit that if needed. We probably make 4ish cups at a time. Would be nice if we could froth, but isn't an absolute necessity.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I ask about switching as this could impact type of grinder.

One of the la pav boys can answer drinks wise

@KTD @Northern_Monkey


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I'm a girl, will I do? I'd say 4 cups at a time is pushing it with the la pav. You can but it's a slow work flow. If it's occasionally 4 at once it'll cope, but it's more suited to 1-2 at a time, not so much volume of the tank, which will easily do 4 drinks, but the way it heats the group head is the issue. (At it's most basic level think burnt coffee by the end!) Steaming isn't an issue, the la pav is great for steam. Other considerations are if there are small (or elderly) people around, it's basically a very very very hot chunk of metal sat out on the side with no insulation, my kids are old enough to understand this now, but a year or two ago I wouldn't have risked it.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Missy i didnt know you had a pav, appologies 

is there not a larger version of the la pav? or did i dream that.

fwiw the londinium would have to be used as new there a 2.5 - 3k machine, but there solid


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> @Missy i didnt know you had a pav, appologies
> 
> is there not a larger version of the la pav? or did i dream that.
> 
> fwiw the londinium would have to be used as new there a 2.5 - 3k machine, but there solid


 Yes there is, but the issue isn't boiler capacity, it's the heating up of the group! It slowly gets hotter and hotter but then eventually overheats because the superheated water is pulled into the group head (which should raise the temp of the group head and cool the water, but there's a point at which it becomes too hot to cool it.)


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

I agree with what @Missy says about the La Pav. Lovely machine if you want just one espresso and nail it first time. Not great for dialing in or if you end up with two sink shots in a row.


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

And OH MY GOD THE NOISE when it's heating up. I used to like it because of the analogue feel (?) of a boiler with a lever attached, but when I replaced the La Pav I loved the return of the peace and quiet.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

ShepTor said:


> Any thoughts welcome.


 Do you mean £1500 all in? Or £1500 or both?

If I was spending on a just machine for £1500 tomorrow I would be looking at an ACS Minima (£1249), Bezzera Magica (£1259), ECM Mechanika V (£1379) or a Lelit Mara X (£999).

Grinders, I would be looking at a Mignon Specialita (£350) or a Niche (£500).

You other option is the secondhand section of this website. Bang for buck there but you'll have to wait for things to come up.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd say there are so many variable associated with using a La Pav that a newbie might never find out what good coffee should really taste like.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

ajohn said:


> I'd say there are so many variable associated with using a La Pav that a newbie might never find out what good coffee should really taste like.


 Many fewer variables than other machines. Heat and go. Couple of temp strips and your away. I'd go so far as to say it is the easiest machine I've used, but it suits my style as there's only me drinking coffee.


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## PJCT (Jun 17, 2020)

I was going to say what others have said - secondhand Londinium L1. They do come up (I got mine about 6 months ago for GBP1,200).

Or you could wait for the Londinium Compact which is just round the corner!


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

PJCT said:


> I was going to say what others have said - secondhand Londinium L1. They do come up (I got mine about 6 months ago for GBP1,200).
> 
> Or you could wait for the Londinium Compact which is just round the corner!


 Is the Compact just around the corner? I know I saw Reiss from Londinium posting on Instagram regarding manufacturing a new machine, and the most recent update was that a die was being manfactured for the manufacturing process that would take 8-12 weeks to arrive. If that's the machine in development I would say it's not coming in the near future.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

La pavonis can be really stable machines with some very simple mods, so I don't agree with some of the advice you have had thus far. If you are on FB have a look at the Pavoni groups. There are plenty of folk that do all the essential mods and sell the finished machine, but as an example you can get a perfect working fully modded machine (group isolator or heat sink, pressure profiling kit) and in terms of noise it's not super quiet but more than makes up for intuitively noise with the silence during the shot which pumps do not offer.


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## ShepTor (Feb 20, 2021)

Thanks for that. Not worried about the noise at all. Will definitely take a look at the groups as an already modified machine sounds great. I actually messaged you coffeechap as someone had suggested you might have machines for sale.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

ShepTor said:


> Hi, we'd decided to spend so.e money trying a lever machine and after reading think we'll get the La Pavoni pl and a grinder, maybe the Eureka Mignon. Have done some reading, but frankly overwhelmed by the choice and detailed advice. We understand the complexities of the lever machines and are willing to give it a go. Had opted for Pl model due to the size of the boiler and number of cups made. Prepared to spend up to about £1500 for machine plus grinder. Open to advice on machine and grinder. Doubt we could upgrade on the machine for this money, but maybe a different grinder? Any thoughts welcome. Hoping to order them tomorrow!!


 I don't think that anybody has asked you, what is it that interests you about lever machines? Is it the looks, is it the profiling aspect? If it's the latter only and you couldn't care less about the looks (or even, you might not have the space for them), then there's plenty of Lelit (MaraX, Bianca), ECM and ACS machines that either come stock or can be upgraded with flow paddles. It's more of a pseudo-lever, since you are working on flow to obtain a certain pressure, rather than directly working on pressure.

Any of these machines would sort of fall within the budget (aside from the Bianca, and for the ECM you'd need to "settle" for a single boiler Classika), and would offer plenty of a learning challenge with far less of the annoying bits that a La Pavoni can come with. That said, of course the La Pav is far simpler when it comes to repairs etc.

Another aspect to consider is your routine. Do you like to walk to the machine and have it ready to brew? With the La Pavoni you might have to go through a longer ritual, which can be meditative when you have the time, but not ideal if you just want a coffee, and fast. The other machines can be used with a smart plug to cater around your routines and be warm when you need them.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

All machines can be used with a smart plug, there are some really odd myths being circulated around pavonis. There really are pretty simple to use when modified, otherwise I agree they can be a little hit and miss.


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## ShepTor (Feb 20, 2021)

Baffo said:


> I don't think that anybody has asked you, what is it that interests you about lever machines? Is it the looks, is it the profiling aspect? If it's the latter only and you couldn't care less about the looks (or even, you might not have the space for them), then there's plenty of Lelit (MaraX, Bianca), ECM and ACS machines that either come stock or can be upgraded with flow paddles. It's more of a pseudo-lever, since you are working on flow to obtain a certain pressure.
> 
> Any of these machines would sort of fall within the budget (aside from the Bianca, and for the ECM you'd need to "settle" for a single boiler Classika), and would offer plenty of a learning challenge with far less of the annoying bits that a La Pavoni can come with. That said, of course the La Pav is far simpler when it comes to repairs etc.
> 
> Another aspect to consider is your routine. Do you like to walk to the machine and have it ready to brew? With the La Pavoni you might have to undergo a longer ritual, which can be meditative, but not ideal if you just want a coffee. The other machines can be used with a smart plug to cater around your routines and be warm when you need them.


 Thanks for the questions. Think I like the idea of the simplicity of the La Pavoni as far as repairs etc. However we have just been looking at several of the machines you mentioned! There is too much choice and as you say so many variables to account for. My partner is actually the coffee person and is keen to try tge La Pav, he'll enjoy the meditative aspect and the fiddly working out how to get the best coffee bit. I won't be as keen on the faff but I'm also happy to make a stovepipe coffee or French press so happy to try the La Pav. Think we both realise it may not be for us but willing to try. About to buy the Eureka Mignon XL 65, assuming it's better than the specialita 16cr and will be OK for any of the machines you mention plus the La Pavoni.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

ShepTor said:


> Thanks for the questions. Think I like the idea of the simplicity of the La Pavoni as far as repairs etc. However we have just been looking at several of the machines you mentioned! There is too much choice and as you say so many variables to account for. My partner is actually the coffee person and is keen to try tge La Pav, he'll enjoy the meditative aspect and the fiddly working out how to get the best coffee bit. I won't be as keen on the faff but I'm also happy to make a stovepipe coffee or French press so happy to try the La Pav. Think we both realise it may not be for us but willing to try. About to buy the Eureka Mignon XL 65, assuming it's better than the specialita 16cr and will be OK for any of the machines you mention plus the La Pavoni.


 The grinder will surely be OK when it comes to grind quality, and so will be other less expensive options. However, different grinders have different features, and their workflows may be more or less tailored to what you want to do with them (eg the Niche is tailored for single dosing, the Mignon is not). It's a bit of a minefield, but both Eureka and Niche tend to make products that are widely loved on this board. I'm not sure the XL 65 is worth the price increase from a regular Mignon (until I get to understand what their new "extra low retention" system is..). Then again, none of these grinders will hold you back in your espresso journey.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

@coffeechap apologies I might have worded it differently, I did not mean that the La Pav (depending on model) cannot heat with a smart plug, rather that you still have to go through a few more steps (ie the ritual), you would still need to flush some water through it to get the grouphead to temperature, or am I wrong?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The group will naturally heat on the Pavoni as it is bolted straight to the boiler, if a heat sink is used on the group it will stabilise the temp in the group once hot.

as with most levers the group acts as a heat sink in its self, the la pav being a small group is not a very effective heat sink as it gets too hot over time.

uou can speed up the heating process by flushing a small amount of water through the group, but this then Leads to the other limiting factor with a closed system ( unable to refill boiler when hot) hence why the professional is a better option as it holds twice the amount of water


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

I was terrified of leaving the La Pav on and allowing it to boil dry. I don't know if there are any safety cut-offs involved (mine was from 1973), but I think I would have had kittens on a daily basis if I'd put it on a smart plug.

Other side of the coin: a smart plug might've resolved my anxiety. YMMV.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> All machines can be used with a smart plug, there are some really odd myths being circulated around pavonis. There really are pretty simple to use when modified, otherwise I agree they can be a little hit and miss.


 An eastern european opened cafe near me several years ago. Most punters drank tea and not much call for coffee so he had a La Pav. Early one with standby and in pristine condition.  Just goes to show if looked after they can last. He kept it on standby so drinks didn't appear quickly and it produced some of the best coffee I have tasted from sources like that - and better places. At the time I thought the coffee was a bit cool. Since brewing at home I know why now - appreciating taste. He even got that right.

I wonder how long it took him to learn how to go through the motions to achieve this? A casual user might never reach the level he did and not even be aware of it.

Must admit I have been tempted but why - mostly looks and what has to be done to produce a coffee. Then come the problems - bits needing replacing and etc.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> I was terrified of leaving the La Pav on and allowing it to boil dry. I don't know if there are any safety cut-offs involved (mine was from 1973), but I think I would have had kittens on a daily basis if I'd put it on a smart plug.
> 
> Other side of the coin: a smart plug might've resolved my anxiety. YMMV.


 The key is making sure they are full and then only setting it to come on just before you need it. Heat up time is fairly quicj


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

The reason i didnt mention the multiple machines is the op asked about levers,

If you want a lever then looking at other machines just complicates thing.

There are used la pavs knocking about at 350 new there around £500, so id go new unless you can get a nicely modded one.

The mignon xl65 is very new to the market, has 65mm burrs which are a very good size, when i had the Eureka atom 65 there was a noticeable difference in the cup above the 55mm specilita, actual was quite shocked. I didnt think id note 10mm.

Some feel that 64mm is the sweet spot for flat burrs.

Coffee wise flats tend to fsvour chocolate nutty beans while conicals favour the more fruity. Thats not to say either wont grind those types its just one may be driven by the taste theu prefer.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> And OH MY GOD THE NOISE when it's heating up. I used to like it because of the analogue feel (?) of a boiler with a lever attached, but when I replaced the La Pav I loved the return of the peace and quiet.


Pretty sure we've had this conversation before but what on earth are you on about. A Pavoni is the quietest machine on the market


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Sounds like a kettle haha

I love the romance of the la pav, with that budget it wouldn't be my machine of choice.

But the op only needs to have a nose around, theres usually one thread a week asking about machine recommendation.

Peoples opinions will vary, id say do like i did and speak to members who have actually used the machines your looking at, be it on the open forum or by private pm

People are quick to give advice which may sway you, when they have no hands on experience.


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

KTD said:


> Pretty sure we've had this conversation before but what on earth are you on about. A Pavoni is the quietest machine on the market


 When it comes up to temperature it whistles like a tuneless banshee. But if you base it on when it's pulling the shot only, then yes, it is silent.

edit: Let me rephrase. My 1973 whistles like a tuneless banshee. Maybe the technology in your newer one has made that a non-feature? If so, brilliant. If you doubt I'm telling the truth then I'm not sure what to tell you.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Yes the vintage ones whistle. The newer ones are almost silent.


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

Problem solved then, and that bit can be disregarded if OP goes new.


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## Deegee (Apr 5, 2020)

Have to confess when I changed from the old Evolution, it was 50/50 between the Europiccola and the Classic, the tinkerer in me liked the mechanical simplicity and as @Cuprajakesaid "Romance" of it, half my family roots were Valleys Welsh Methodist, with that anti alcohol thing going on, the Italian coffee shops - some with lever machines prospered as social centres in lieu of pubs, hence my intro to coffee as my Dads family were coffee only. There's a resonance with lever machines for me that pumped machines don't reach, this time round the convenience of a pump and ability to mod sent me to the Gaggia, but next time I'm not so sure....


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Peoples opinions will vary, id say do like i did and speak to members who have actually used the machines your looking at, be it on the open forum or by private pm
> 
> People are quick to give advice which may sway you, when they have no hands on experience.


 Assuming that you were referring to me in the last paragraph, I understand it's not ideal and perhaps I shouldn't give my opinion at all in these threads.

However, asking via private message to people who currently have a certain machine isn't the be all end all of getting things right - people who own machine X will tell you to get machine X, people who have machine Y will tell you to get Y, and if you message them in private you will get swayed anyway according to the users you end up speaking with. Mind you, I've done it myself, I've been speaking with at least 6-7 users before deciding on my machine, but I always had to take opinions with a pinch of salt as everybody loves their machine and pushes that one.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Id say the only thing that could be classed as a down side, well two is, that they cant pull manu shots back to back and they can get a tad hot.

Im shocked at how much both the gaggia and pavoni are demanding used atm..


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## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

You could wait until a used Olympia Cremina pops up on eBay (saw one recently for £980) and while you're waiting sign up for the Niche (£500) availability updates


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Baffo in part yes. Your talking about machines and grinders as if you've used them. But it also goes for ones who push things like the niche without using one, almost like a chinese whisper that snowballs.

Id like to think that most on the forum can provide an objective view.

Esp when machines are so closely matched in spec and price. Hence like you say the same 3 machines come up time and time again, theres really not much choice at a certain price point.

I purposely didn't mention other machines as the op wanted a lever machine. I suggested two other levers.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> Problem solved then, and that bit can be disregarded if OP goes new.


 Actually the issue over the OPV whistling was rectified 30 years ago with the introduction of the pressure stat I. The base, a feature that has been on the professional for 40 years!

yours will be a dual element machine, the nicest in my opinion as the components and build quality were better on the earlier ones. Sob you switch to the 200w element when it's hot as this should just burble away instead of making a loud hissing noise.

a lot of folk tend to upgrade to a single element with pressure stat and add a boiler pressure guage when an element fails.


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

coffeechap said:


> Actually the issue over the OPV whistling was rectified 30 years ago with the introduction of the pressure stat I. The base, a feature that has been on the professional for 40 years!
> 
> yours will be a dual element machine, the nicest in my opinion as the components and build quality were better on the earlier ones. Sob you switch to the 200w element when it's hot as this should just burble away instead of making a loud hissing noise.
> 
> a lot of folk tend to upgrade to a single element with pressure stat and add a boiler pressure guage when an element fails.


 It is indeed the dual element, that is indeed what I would do. It didn't half upset the wife if I walked away from it for five minutes while it heated up, mind...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> It is indeed the dual element, that is indeed what I would do. It didn't half upset the wife if I walked away from it for five minutes while it heated up, mind...


 I know that twin element blow out is pretty severe


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## PJCT (Jun 17, 2020)

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> Is the Compact just around the corner? I know I saw Reiss from Londinium posting on Instagram regarding manufacturing a new machine, and the most recent update was that a die was being manfactured for the manufacturing process that would take 8-12 weeks to arrive. If that's the machine in development I would say it's not coming in the near future.


 I should have added "and has been just round the corner for the last [insert number here] years"


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

ShepTor said:


> Thanks for that. Not worried about the noise at all. Will definitely take a look at the groups as an already modified machine sounds great. I actually messaged you coffeechap as someone had suggested you might have machines for sale.


 I purchased my La Pavoni off coffeechap and what he doesn't know about lever machines isn't worth knowing. He refurbished and modified my Pavoni Professional and I can honestly say it is an absolute joy to use and makes the most delicious coffee, I wouldn't swap it for anything. I make two cups of coffee a day, occasionally three if my husband decides to have one also and its perfect. I love the look of it, its a stunning brass and copper one and the manual side of it gives you so much feedback.


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