# Oracle Touch - ideal ratios and times?



## igr (May 18, 2020)

Hi everyone!

We finally have the Oracle Touch and although everyone has different tastes, I still wanted to ask about ideal ratios and brewing times: what will be your recommendation?

If double portafilter takes 22g of coffee, what should be:



Time to first drop


Total brewing time


Total liquid out


The reason for the question is that I'm a little lost. The grind is set at "18" with total brew time set at 30s - that results in 10s till first drop and 40g of liquid out - both look right. But the coffee seems too bitter (or too strong?) and first few milligrams come out pitch black, which does not seem right.

It can be the beans of course, but if these stay for now, how should I adjust the settings to improve? It does not feel right to lower the grind even more, but the above numbers look right - proportions are correct, times are correct, so what's not right?


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Yeah it doesn't sound a million miles off to me.

22g in 40g out is a little short. Anywhere between 1:2 and 1:3 is a good start, but of course you can get good flavours outside of this. Maybe try pulling a slightly longer shot (you're currently at 1:1.8), could slacken the grind off a tad if it tastes too bitter.

Firstly though, what beans are you using?

I've never used an oracle or a sage grinder, so can't really tell you whether your grind setting sounds particularly out of whack, but sounds like you're in the right ballpark.

22g is a pretty huge basket as well. Is that the stock basket and we're there alternatives? Just curious!


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## igr (May 18, 2020)

Thanks for the reply - you confirm my thoughts that numbers look right, but I can tell you coffee is undrinkable. I've continued my endeavours and what is very, very surprising is the single basket result.

Single Basket with Grind Setting at "20" (EDIT: total brew time was 25s) gives 14g of coffee, time to first drop is 5s and total liquid out is 29g. Most importantly, the coffee is normal - it does not taste off and is drinkable, but nothing special. I'm lost on what's going on. It is also not as black and does not taste (as?) burned: I have to be careful here as my taste may be off after so many attempts, but visually at least it looks normal.

Any ideas?

The baskets are standard that came with machine, I do think they're generally on a bigger side with Oracle Touch...


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

What beans are you using? I'm not suggesting changing them, just might make a difference when you're looking at buying more!

I just watched James Hoffman's review (link below) and I'm going to have to say that I won't be very useful here, because the oracle works pretty backwards to how I make my drinks!

He does, however, suggest that this machine does better in the 1:2.5 range. So might be better to adjust the grind to get more like 22g in to 55g out in 30 seconds rather than 40g out that you're currently getting.

Wouldnt worry about what the grind setting is to achieve that, it's just a number.

Here's the video for reference:


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## TobyAnscombe (Sep 28, 2014)

Having had my touch for well over 2 years now I agree; get a set of scales and measure by weight and then use the shot timer once you have it right. For reference my workflow is:



22g in of HasBean subscription beans (so different each week).


Normal grind is around about 18-20 cant remember what the burr setting is off the top of my head


timed shot of 30 sec which gives me 63-65g out of weight


Add milk steamed at setting 4 to 65C


Lovely coffee...


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## typesomething (1 mo ago)

I just bought the Sage OT & am having the same issue as the OP. I do find that a grind setting of around 20 has given best results so far across a range of beans, although the coffee isn’t up to the standard I expect from this expensive machine. I’ll try the 1:2.5 ratio, I’m using a double basket. I did try a single basket once and the coffee was better (probably down to more milk) but not as good as my benchmark at work, a favoured coffee shop in London or my brother in-law’s coffee (who’s roasted the caffeinated & decaf beans for me). All are 2x shots by the way. I’ve tried his beans alongside a coffeebotherers batch (which has good reviews) so I really doubt the beans are the issue. I also use Brita jug filtered tap water and change it regularly. I’m still experimenting after 2 weeks but aren’t getting results I’d expect just yet.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There is no point people comparing grind setting between different users as there are a number of reasons why they will vary for the same grind coming out. Changing the top burr setting doesn't change the grind. It just changes the number for the same level of grind, It's best left as it comes as the grinder will have been calibrated, That can only be done to a certain accuracy which is one of the reasons for variations between grinders.

LOL I wonder how much coffee in total Hoffman put through the grinder? With fresh roasted beans his mention of a ratio of 1 to 2.5 doesn't surprise me. Actually it wouldn't surprise me on any machine used. Rather than assuming some ratio is always best judge by taste and try a range of ratios. Sage in a round about way suggest a ratio of ~3 as the double is intended to produce a 60ml shot. A usual range of ratio is anything between 2 and maybe a touch over 3, But another option at any of them is to cut the shot time significantly. Say 20secs - a ristretto as a commercial machine would do it. Longer say 40secs has never worked out for me. A lungo. Some commercial machines have buttons for both, These change the volume that comes out not the grind.

Prepacked commercial espresso beans. Rather hard to say but a commercial double basket holds ~14g, In use shot time may be rather short.  I've been working on Starbucks blond roast. I'm getting near their taste with a ratio of ~1.7 and have run out of them. Other of this type I have tried out of curiosity have needed either closer to fresh roasted or a lot higher, Both were arabica blends. I doubt if the blond roast is,


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## typesomething (1 mo ago)

Problem is, by the time you experiment to find the right settings… you run out of beans! 😂
A double basket on my Sage OT gives a weight of near to 22g. I’m working towards the 1:2.5 ratio, or near about. I got a 90g cup of coffee this morning (I’ll aim more for a 60g cup on the next one - scales don’t fit under my machine & cup) and it actually tasted much better.
I suppose what’s messed up is the next set of beans could throw the balance all out.

Is this a perilous journey chasing the end of the rainbow? Should I just drink coffee from a can in the fridge? Will I get that perfect cup once and never again and feel like part of me is lost forever? 🧐 … the Saga continues.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

typesomething said:


> Problem is, by the time you experiment to find the right settings… you run out of beans!





typesomething said:


> I suppose what’s messed up is the next set of beans could throw the balance all out.





typesomething said:


> Is this a perilous journey chasing the end of the rainbow?


LOL It's not that bad. The Starbucks bean I mentioned was not behaving the way other commercial beans I have tried have. Maybe I should have remember what I saw in a busy Costa. Shot time more like 10secs than 30 and a pretty black pour.

More usually I would aim to try ratios of ~ 2, 2,5 and 3 and see what they produce, Often even with a new bean to try something in that range may come out with the grinder at it's previous setting. There is no need to be exact with them. The idea is to get a feel for how the taste changes, Once some one has done this a few times they will get an idea how much to shift the grinder setting, Whatever comes out I complete making the drink and taste it. Having to throw it away is unusual but happens at times. No harm of trying more ratios outside that range.

Next batch of fresh roasted beans. It's generally a good idea to rest them for a while.People use and swear by various times. I'd be inclined to say a few days is a good idea but past that try for yourself. New machine, have your beans. Get on with it if you like as they will age as you use them. With Sage grinders I would say the main problem new is the grinder settling down. Beans can be weighed in but initially less will come out. Eventually what comes out will be pretty close to what went in. Against that they are all easy to adjust finely where ever they crop up. Repeatably as well, The only one that isn't is a sub version of the Sage Grinder Pro that no one seems to sell. They should be able to get people close enough to what is needed.

I do prefer to rest my beans in a vented coffee bean canister. They have a one way valve to let CO2 out but only because a bean I use needs 5 days to start showing signs of oil coming out of them. Not so evenly in the bag they come in. I prefer a size that holds ~250g rather than larger. When beans are ready cans go into the fidge and come out a day before I need them. When in use they get transferred to another type, They have a sort if plunger in them with a handle that opens and closes a vent. The idea is to drive as much air out as possible as the beans are used up, They probably do reduce further grinder changes when beans take a week or longer to be used. Setting will also change slowly as the burrs run in on a new grinder.


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