# EK43 - A good investment/value holder?



## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

We all know about the EK43 LE by now - but do you think they legitimately won't be making any more of them, and also, will they not replace it with something a lot better meaning the LE is something for the vault and doesn't really have a premium anymore?

I'm thinking about buying one, and knowing it will really hold its value is probably something that would sway my decision!

Thanks


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

There's an all new EK in the pipeline but not due till next year. Prototypes have been glimpsed. Price is likely to be well north of £2k if the price of the newly released Peak is anything to go by. Whether it will be worth the price difference over the current EK is a good question.


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

Seems like you can get the ek43 for 1800 new but the LE will set you back £2400


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

You could get that fabricated for less than £600


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Stevie said:


> Seems like you can get the ek43 for 1800 new but the LE will set you back £2400


Presuming this is the coffee Italia price your quoting ?


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

Yes £1790 coffee italia and £2400 for the LE from Omega


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What does better mean to you?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

when all the new Peaks and EK43 variants have come to market, I'm hoping there might be a healthy second hand market for original EK43s...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

fluffles said:


> when all the new Peaks and EK43 variants have come to market, I'm hoping there might be a healthy second hand market for original EK43s...


don't think the price will drop that far though on the ek


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> don't think the price will drop that far though on the ek


I guess there will be a lot hit the market as people/cafes upgrade, but likewise there will be no shortage of buyers.


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> What does better mean to you?


A a balance of everything! Performance and ownership as a start up


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

fluffles said:


> I guess there will be a lot hit the market as people/cafes upgrade, but likewise there will be no shortage of buyers.


Honestly most cafe's i see use these for brewed and the new version is unlikely to change that .. so I not sure there will be the desire to change old ek out for new ...

Peak's - alot of people bought into the mythos last year and again i would question how many people will swap out these so every on in their life cycle .


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

fluffles said:


> I guess there will be a lot hit the market as people/cafes upgrade, but likewise there will be no shortage of buyers.


Not sure if be keen to buy a used EK from a cafe, especially with the price of new burrs, which could be needed at any time.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Honestly most cafe's i see use these for brewed and the new version is unlikely to change that .. so I not sure there will be the desire to change old ek out for new ...
> 
> Peak's - alot of people bought into the mythos last year and again i would question how many people will swap out these so every on in their life cycle .


why is it that its used for brewed over espresso?

seems a waste to not use it more frequently


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

Blackstone said:


> why is it that its used for brewed over espresso?
> 
> seems a waste to not use it more frequently


because there's no timer on it is one of the main reasons


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Blackstone said:


> why is it that its used for brewed over espresso?
> 
> seems a waste to not use it more frequently


Workflow is a faff for a busy cafe - weighing single doses etc - Mythos are super easy to use and tasty .. Some places prefer shots of certain strength and body for milk drinks ( which account for 95% plus of their espresso based drinks ) - which they EK does not excel at ...

Ive seen a couple of places use it for guest espresso alongside their maninstay ( which runs in a on demand )

Plus it makes exceptional brewed coffee - that was kind of its original use .


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Easy to single dose


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Easy to single dose


Would you use it in a cafe doing 300 plus espressos a day as your main grinder ?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Would you use it in a cafe doing 300 plus espressos a day as your main grinder ?


No but that's one reason it's popular for filter.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Stevie said:


> A a balance of everything! Performance and ownership as a start up


It's not a car. Would single dosing for espresso annoy you? Do you change beans often? Do you change between brew methods often?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Would you use it in a cafe doing 300 plus espressos a day as your main grinder ?


Don't know anywhere using an EK as on demand espresso grinder.


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> It's not a car. Would single dosing for espresso annoy you? Do you change beans often? Do you change between brew methods often?


Wouldnt use it for espresso. the alternative is just a cheaper grinder


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't know anywhere using an EK as on demand espresso grinder.


Bulldog edition in Shoreditch? They use pre-weighed measures straight into the hopper.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Craft Coffee do their espresso on an ek.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Stevie said:


> Wouldnt use it for espresso. the alternative is just a cheaper grinder


For your house?


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> For your house?


No, a shop (start up)


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Is money an object?


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Is money an object?


Well thats the issue. If its a good 'asset' for the business that will hold its value then its probably a good thing to buy. If a cheaper grinder will do the job then freeing up the cash would be a good thing. Just trying to work out if its a good decision - I suppose its me 'thinking out loud'...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

An old ditting will do a job for brewed and be much cheaper


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

What money would you put for that? £800 mark?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Seen them go for much less than that


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't know anywhere using an EK as on demand espresso grinder.


Doesn't Mcintyre coffee in London? Think so.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Majority of shops with EKs use them for pour over rather than espresso.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Majority of shops with EKs use them for pour over rather than espresso.


Bulldog edition do coffee shots served in a glass jug. Very cool!


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't know anywhere using an EK as on demand espresso grinder.


I think the best known cafe to use the EK as an on demand grinder is Maxwell's Colonna & Smalls in Bath, no?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

It's entirely possible if you weigh out the doses in advance. We've done busy service at events in the past with the EK. It just depends whether you're willing to adopt a different approach to your service. Retention is negligible so there is time saved in not having to weigh the dose after grinding.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

I have 24 single shot pots which I weighout & fill prior to preparing coffee for my wife's book club meets.

With two double PFs on the go its very easy to drop a pot full of beans into the small EK hopper. Goes through in seconds.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

If you are intending to use it for spro in a shop environment I would think a 5e volumetric doser is almost a necessity.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

risky said:


> If you are intending to use it for spro in a shop environment I would think a 5e volumetric doser is almost a necessity.


Maybe although I'm not sure how it works. Does it mean you leave the grinder running all the time? If so, I'd be concerned. If not, it may not save that much time on the service side although you would save a lot of time on the prep side. Personally, I'm not sure if trust the doser entirely as it works by measuring the volume of beans rather than the weight of them. Potential for variation there. Would be interested to see how it performs as far as dose consistency goes.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Maybe although I'm not sure how it works. Does it mean you leave the grinder running all the time? If so, I'd be concerned. If not, it may not save that much time on the service side although you would save a lot of time on the prep side. Personally, I'm not sure if trust the doser entirely as it works by measuring the volume of beans rather than the weight of them. Potential for variation there. Would be interested to see how it performs as far as dose consistency goes.


No you just switch on, slide it across. Switch back off. Saves massive time on prep, but not much on service.

The doser was developed from something used in the pharmaceutical industry for measuring out doses of pills I believe. It is very accurate (+/- 0.2g) but depends on the screening size of the beans.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

EK wasn't designed for continual on and off use. It's a bag grinder after all. Can run under load for around 40 mins.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

risky said:


> No you just switch on, slide it across. Switch back off. Saves massive time on prep, but not much on service.
> 
> The doser was developed from something used in the pharmaceutical industry for measuring out doses of pills I believe. It is very accurate (+/- 0.2g) but depends on the screening size of the beans.


Back to Black use one and said it was a bit inconsistent to start but it's super reliable now


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

It's definitely interesting. Although +/- 0.2g wouldn't be accurate enough for me to feel I didn't need to weigh the dose anymore, that's more than a whole bean away! That's probably a personality thing though, I've actually spent far too long when pre-weighing doses swapping a big bean for a slightly smaller one. There is a serious point though in that dry dose is one of those things that we potentially have full control of so I'd always struggle to move away from weighing portafilters.


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

risky said:


> If you are intending to use it for spro in a shop environment I would think a 5e volumetric doser is almost a necessity.


I think I'll probably end up getting one as a second grinder and use it for decaf, guest espresso and filter. Guests and decaf get ordered pretty infrequently so it's not too much effort to weigh for each use. Mythos one for house espresso


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> That's probably a personality thing though, I've actually spent far too long when pre-weighing doses swapping a big bean for a slightly smaller one.


This made me laugh









I had to stop using a 2 decimal point balance for exactly the same reason. Spending far to long swapping beans over trying to hit bang on .00

What can I say - all scientists have a touch of OCD about this sort of thing. I'm used to working with things at 0.01mg sensitivity.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

for a while I became anal about the beans .... but when I realised I could never stop the shot at dead on 36.00g, it became rather pointless if my basket wasn't exactly 18.00


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> It's definitely interesting. Although +/- 0.2g wouldn't be accurate enough for me to feel I didn't need to weigh the dose anymore, that's more than a whole bean away! That's probably a personality thing though, I've actually spent far too long when pre-weighing doses swapping a big bean for a slightly smaller one. There is a serious point though in that dry dose is one of those things that we potentially have full control of so I'd always struggle to move away from weighing portafilters.


0.2g is my acceptable margin of error on dosing.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> It's definitely interesting. Although +/- 0.2g wouldn't be accurate enough


So when you grind a preweighted dose with the EK into the PF, then you still need to weight again to adjust the dosed weight?? I don't think it will be possible doing this to cope the demand on a shop at all.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Just wondering what people perceive as an acceptable variance on dosing, 0.2g, 0.3g, 0.5g ??


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Using a 1dp balance then I try and hit .0 (this is still +/- 0.05 due to sensitivity).

How much difference it makes is debatable. But I reckon there are so many variables in coffee making I might as well be as accurate as I can with the ones that are easy to control. It doesn't really take any longer to be honest.

Accurate dose, consistent routine, volumetrics on the not pretty but very efficient Sage DB, and I can manage a very reproducible shot.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Just wondering what people perceive as an acceptable variance on dosing, 0.2g, 0.3g, 0.5g ??


0.2g. 0.5 is too much, 17.5-18.5 would see a material change in time


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Do you believe you can pick up a noticeable difference in the cup with a 0.2g+ dose then, sticking to same output?


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

Our mazzer major at work has about 0.5 variance and it really affects the shot. It can even drop/increase 0.7 in quiet to busy periods (i assume temperature).... 0.2 would be very nice if that could be achieved in volume


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Just wondering what people perceive as an acceptable variance on dosing, 0.2g, 0.3g, 0.5g ??


Depends on your scales' precision. if your scales have a resolution of 0.1g but in reality are +/-0.3g then you're at +/-0.5g already.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

As you are weighing output though that doesn't really matter does it?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> As you are weighing output though that doesn't really matter does it?


I suppose that is the key point. Provided that you are working within the capacity of the basket that you are using and maintain the same brew ratio, then results should be pretty similar.

I just find it easier to go with dose as exact as I can reasonably manage and then use the volumetric function. There are typically so many variables in biological research you tend to latch on to the ones that you can actually control. Just becomes a habit.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

So what happens when your grinder chucks out 18.2g, do you swipe a bit of the top?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> As you are weighing output though that doesn't really matter does it?


If the output remains the same, but the dose actually varies by 1g, all things being equal, you are talking about a 1%EY spread.

All other things are probably not going to be equal, nor output remain the same, so if you're aiming for a +/-1%EY range (2% spread, some folk may have less leeway, others a tad more), for instance, you're making life harder for yourself. It only takes a moment to ensure you doses are reading to +/-0.2g for accurate scales, or for home users we have time to make the readings absolutely constant to the decimal place.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:


> If the output remains the same, but the dose actually varies by 1g, all things being equal, you are talking about a 1%EY spread.
> 
> All other things are probably not going to be equal, nor output remain the same, so if you're aiming for a +/-1%EY range (2% spread, some folk may have less leeway, others a tad more), for instance, you're making life harder for yourself. It only takes a moment to ensure you doses are reading to +/-0.2g for accurate scales, or for home users we have time to make the readings absolutely constant to the decimal place.


Would a 0.2g variance equate to a .25% EY spread or are my maths out?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> So what happens when your grinder chucks out 18.2g, do you swipe a bit of the top?


That's what I do.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

So at the other end, how close do people get to the required output, aiming for 36g out, normally get?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> So what happens when your grinder chucks out 18.2g, do you swipe a bit of the top?


I weigh the dose in the portafilter after dosing straight into it and remove whatever is over the dose I'm aiming for. Static will affect pre and post grind weights.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> So at the other end, how close do people get to the required output, aiming for 36g out, normally get?


+/- 2grms using Brewista scales - pulling a ratio of 1:2 with a dose of 18-19grms.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Would a 0.2g variance equate to a .25% EY spread or are my maths out?


About 0.4%EY spread? Unlikely to be an issue.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

So faffing to get 0.2g out the basket is not really worth the faff?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> So faffing to get 0.2g out the basket is not really worth the faff?


If you're weighing to 0.1g resolution/readability, it's not a lot of faff to hit that, or +/-0.2g. Why buy scales that read to 0.1g if you're only going to dose to 1g?

But if you're +/- 0.4g (actual, not read), or more, it probably is worth a moment, considering tolerances in prep & output.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

HOLD ON A MINUTE....

Reading this and am loosing the will to live.... i mean, loosing the focus of the conversation.

If we are talking about a shop environment - weighing the dose in is likely the most reliable method that is also time efficient. You can choose to weigh the output every so often if you wish.

whether the output is .1, or .2 out is not going to be detected by 99.99% of your customers - especially seeing as you're likely / they're likely to be having this with milk (which I know you don't weigh!)

I think the general questions have been:

IS the EK a solid investment for home / for a shop? - YES / YES

Can you single dose with the EK? - yes

Can you do this in a busy shop environment? - yes

Can you decide whether to weight input or output? yes

Is it more 'faff'? yes

But do shops still do it? yes - call it customer service if you will

Overall, should you buy the EK? Yes - (well, unless you're worried about temperature of beans/grinds changing the characteristics/extraction of 'spro - in which case get the Methos to better regulate the temperature of the beans under heavy use.)

If you're using this at home I would stay with an EK.

Sorry...please carry on...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

bongo said:


> whether the output is .1, or .2 out is not going to be detected by 99.99% of your customers.


That is pretty much what we are saying.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Phew...


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

Haha this thread has lost track, my original question in the OP was actually about the LE - if it was a better buy than the standard EK43 (sorry for misleading title)...

Since this thread I have decided to buy a standard EK43 (will order soonish) and will use it for decaf, guest and filter as and when needed. I wouldn't want to make every shot on this grinder, but in a shop environment decaf and guest make up 5% of orders so its not too much hassle.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

What's your main grinder going to be then Stevie?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> What's your main grinder going to be then Stevie?


He mentioned Mythos One in another post as being the main grinder


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

View attachment 18974











Solid combo


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## tambu (Sep 7, 2015)

Stevie said:


> Haha this thread has lost track, my original question in the OP was actually about the LE - if it was a better buy than the standard EK43 (sorry for misleading title)...
> 
> Since this thread I have decided to buy a standard EK43 (will order soonish) and will use it for decaf, guest and filter as and when needed. I wouldn't want to make every shot on this grinder, but in a shop environment decaf and guest make up 5% of orders so its not too much hassle.


Out of interest, is it practical to run guest+decaf+filter off one grinder, as they all need dialling in differently? I mean you have to adjust the grind intra-day I would think if you want perfection, which is tough on occasional service and even tougher if you're banging three different types of bean through it? The filter grind isn't all that sensitive, or you could do batch, but two different espresso beans sounds painful?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

tambu said:


> Out of interest, is it practical to run guest+decaf+filter off one grinder, as they all need dialling in differently? I mean you have to adjust the grind intra-day I would think if you want perfection, which is tough on occasional service and even tougher if you're banging three different types of bean through it? The filter grind isn't all that sensitive, or you could do batch, but two different espresso beans sounds painful?


Have you used an Ek ?

Super easy to move from one dial on to another ( once you know what they are ) . Takes seconds


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

tambu said:


> but two different espresso beans sounds painful?


http://www.ryman.co.uk/post-it-index-arrows-5-pads-assorted-colours


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## tambu (Sep 7, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> View attachment 18974
> 
> 
> Solid combo


That's quite a coffee stall! I wish my local farmer's market coffee stall had that gear...


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> View attachment 18974
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks the nuts jeebsy.


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

tambu said:


> Out of interest, is it practical to run guest+decaf+filter off one grinder, as they all need dialling in differently? I mean you have to adjust the grind intra-day I would think if you want perfection, which is tough on occasional service and even tougher if you're banging three different types of bean through it? The filter grind isn't all that sensitive, or you could do batch, but two different espresso beans sounds painful?


I've seen people who track the dial for each one - so for example put it to 1.3 for espresso, then up to 6 (or whatever) for filter. It's never going to be 'perfect' but its probably good enough in a world where we can't have 5 grinders









Yes likely to be a Mythos One as main grinder, rented from Origin and the machine and EK will be assets to the business...


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

@jeebsy where can I get those metal cups you have under your EK?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

eBay, they're cocktail shakers


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> eBay, they're cocktail shakers


oh right cool. I should have guessed - they just look pretty small!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Small cocktail shakers


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Small cocktail shakers


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

@Stevie you could also consider doing a "Jeebsy" and on the probably rare occasion you get asked for regular espresso (not decaf or guest) grind it on the ek.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

risky said:


> @Stevie you could also consider doing a "Jeebsy" and on the probably rare occasion you get asked for regular espresso (not decaf or guest) grind it on the ek.


Outside Glasgow that's known as a 'Craft Coffee'


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Stevie said:


> ........ I have decided to buy a standard EK43 (will order soonish) and will use it for decaf, guest and filter as and when needed. I wouldn't want to make every shot on this grinder, but in a shop environment decaf and guest make up 5% of orders so its not too much hassle.


Not specifically at you Stevie but more a generic musing about financials...

Oddly not relevant at all for the home barista - who can spend whatever they want to/can afford on their kit as it not intended to make money.

But on a commercial basis how does a £2k grinder (used for 5% of orders) pay for itself?

£5-10k on a multi-group machine that knocks out your "bread and butter" - can churn out shots all day, can steam all day, temp stable and all that stuff...

Real "plucked from the air figures"......

At 50p "profit" per cup thats 10000-20000 cups to pay for the machine.

So:

100 p/d - 3months - 6months

500 p/d - 1month - 2 months

at 10p "profit" per cup thats 50000-100000 cups to pay for the machine.

So:

100 p/d - 1 - 2 years

500 p/d - Several months

But at 5% "usage".....

Using worst case (100 p/d = 5 p/d @10p)

It takes about 11years to "pay" for the additional grinder....

Even at £2 "profit" per cup it is 1000 cups... So selling 20000 cups....

Mmmmmmm are my numbers totally mad?


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

That's fair enough - but you forget its an asset, and after a year or 2 will still be worth some odd 1250-1500 perhaps if looked after? I don't mind buying nice things that represent my business if they are good investments. Like you say, coffee is the bread and butter, and i think the grinders are as important as the espresso machine. Apart from my Strada and EK everything else will be rented/leased etc...

The equipment will never pay for itself in the short term, but the equipment will pay the depreciation









Plus, its £1450 plus vat (which won't be paid), so not quite £2k


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Stevie said:


> That's fair enough - but you forget its an asset, and after a year or 2 will still be worth some odd 1250-1500 perhaps if looked after? I don't mind buying nice things that represent my business if they are good investments. Like you say, coffee is the bread and butter, and i think the grinders are as important as the espresso machine. Apart from my Strada and EK everything else will be rented/leased etc...
> 
> The equipment will never pay for itself in the short term, but the equipment will pay the depreciation
> 
> ...


As I said it wasn't aimed specifically at you - just some idle number crunching.

All the best


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

Even for the enthusiastic home user, its a sexy piece of kit you could use and sell on for just a couple hundred pound loss - but I guess its obviously down to personal circumstances. I wouldn't have it for home







.... My home setup is just a Silvia + Rocky


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Stevie said:


> Even for the enthusiastic home user, its a sexy piece of kit you could use and sell on for just a couple hundred pound loss - but I guess its obviously down to personal circumstances. I wouldn't have it for home
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah the home user is "special"...... no matter how much you spend on a hobby it doesn't need real justification...

If you can afford it - it's justified! (Obviously feeding the kids and not getting divorced needs to be achieved too  ).


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Stevie said:


> My home setup is just a Silvia + Rocky


If you're using a Strada and an EK every day, I'd be amazed if you don't upgrade your home setup!


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

risky said:


> If you're using a Strada and an EK every day, I'd be amazed if you don't upgrade your home setup!


When the setup is running i doubt i'll have much demand for coffee at home, and if I had the money for better stuff at home i'd rather plough it into the business on a sample roaster or another grinder or even a GS3 for events etc...


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