# Machine for flat whites



## Cousinsteve (Jan 29, 2021)

Hi, I have searched the forum but the most recent post I saw on the topic was from 2012 so sorry if I have missed something.

I want to buy my cousin a house warming present of a coffee machine. He pretty much only drinks flat whites. I know nothing about coffee so have done a lot of digging around but I am stuck.

I have looked to find a machine that auto grinds and pours in milk foam/froth, but none seem to offer flat white as a preset. There is also the option of going capsule for ease, but nespresso machines dont seem to have a flat white capsule.

I have seen dolce gusto do have a capsule, but because it is present (and without trying to look like a snob) I was looking to get him something more like 150 to 200 pounds rather than 30.

Can anyone recommend a machine that is great for flat whites.... he is only young and isnt really interested in weighing and grinding his own beans etc and making it an art form, he is looking for relatively quick and easy but of course nice!

Any help gratefully recieved.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

@Cousinsteve Hi and welcome to the forum, i hope you enjoy your stay and have fun...i think you may struggle to find a machine for that budget; please accept my apologies if i'm wrong and there is indeed such a machine/s....there is plenty of good folk on here who will have the answer you seek.


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## Cousinsteve (Jan 29, 2021)

Hi, thanks for the answer.

I can be flexible on budget, as I can get others to come in with me.

Do you know of any machine that makes flat whites automatically? The only one I could see was the £30 dolce gusto, but I am looking for something more upmarket than that.

Thanks again for your help


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Cousinsteve said:


> Hi, thanks for the answer.
> 
> I can be flexible on budget, as I can get others to come in with me.
> 
> ...


 It depends what you mean by a flat white? 
If you mean a flat white as a drink with an espresso base and a velvety microfoamed milk top then no, it doesn't exist as you need to be able to steam milk. 
What you're asking for doesn't exist with any budget. 
My personal opinion would be get him something else, if you think he is unwilling to make coffee properly he's better sticking to a pod machine or maybe trying his hand at brew methods. 
However, if you think he'd be willing to give a proper flat white a go you could try getting him into the process, but you're looking at budgets of 300-500 as a starting point. For this something like a sage bambino would help him with getting espresso and milk steaming.

Sorry that may not help much but it's the honest truth.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

The cheapest decent BTC machines are usually upwards of £400.
I would go with a Nespresso machine and a Dualit milk frother (£50). They make passable micro foam for flat whites. After that you're into manual espresso making which is a whole different ball game.


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

As Tom said, there is no automated way I am aware of that is going to make you a flat white. The closest thing to a machine which does what you are looking for is going to be something like the Sage Oracle. It is as automated as it can be but he will still need to do a bit of work to make the coffee. The problem you will have is that they cost around £2k new. You could try and buy one second hand, and I believe @Geezercdg is trying to sell one. It's likely to be for more than your original budget though I would imagine. This may not be something you'd want to do as a present, but it might enable you to get the machine you'd want whilst staying close to your budget.






Aside from the useful review, James Hoffman makes a good point in his video that is worth considering - does your cousin want a new hobby or just a way to easily make coffee? If it's just an easy way to make coffee, @lake_mhas hit the nail on the head I think with his suggestion of a nespresso machine with a separate milk frother. It won't be able to make flat whites like you would get in a coffee shop, but it will make passable coffee and hot/foamy milk.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Firstly, welcome to the forum and let me start by saying I think it's a really nice and thoughtful gesture, not to mention generous. When I stopped being a lodger and got my little house, my landlady gave me a De Longhi "espresso machine" and that was what got me started here.

Melitta Varianza CSP is way over the original budget which is why I didn't mention it before, I think its about £500. Dave C had one on test for ages and thought it was the best bean to cup machine for reasonable money. If you really want to give someone a push button machine that would be a good place to start. 
https://coffeeequipmentreviews...9/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp/

Personally I think that however much you spend, anything made by pieces of plastic behind a button that says "flat white" is always going to be a source of disappointment as it is literally not possible to recreate real espresso and properly steamed milk done by someone who knows what they're doing. This is not a problem money can solve, only engagement with the process. Depending on your definition of "passable", fully automated machines can make acceptable drinks if you are happy to trade quality for convenience.

My personal opinion, I wouldn't buy a B2C for myself or anyone else. Laziness comes at a heavy price and bean to cup machines are temperamental things with lots of plastic moving parts. The number of posts we get from people saying "hi, I just joined the forum cos my B2C is malfunctioning" is not insignificant.

Sorry, I know the above sounds very negative and especially in the context of you trying to make a truly generous and thoughtful gift, I really don't want to come off as a coffee snob. I just want to avoid everyone in your family chipping in to buy a B2C machine that ends up being disappointing when it should be a fantastic present. I just think people aren't aware how hard it is to replicate what a skilled barista does by hand. It's not 'nuances for connoisseurs', it's more in 'different drink' territory.


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## Cousinsteve (Jan 29, 2021)

Hi All - thanks so much for all your comments. I really appreciate the effort you have put in here.

I think i will take the advice to go for a pod machine and a frother. This should be comfortable for his needs at the moment and I will be able to advise him on the above and let him know that whilst he will get something to get him through the morning, he best not have Mr Hoffman over until he has bought into the ritual a bit more!

Thanks again.


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## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

Cousinsteve said:


> Hi All - thanks so much for all your comments. I really appreciate the effort you have put in here.
> 
> I think i will take the advice to go for a pod machine and a frother. This should be comfortable for his needs at the moment and I will be able to advise him on the above and let him know that whilst he will get something to get him through the morning, he best not have Mr Hoffman over until he has bought into the ritual a bit more!
> 
> Thanks again.


 Just be aware that the "price" of pod machines most emphatically includes the price of the pods. For instance, withNespresso, they have £200 Vertuo machines currently on sale at £99, and that includes 100 mixed pods which, with an average cost of around 50p each, is £50 in "free" pods. But after that, he has to start forking out between about 40p and 60p per pod. So if he and his partner have 3/day each, 6 cups at about 50p = £3/day, = £1000+ per year. Which, IMHO, is why there's almost perpetually some discounted machines available.

Oh, and that deal ends very soon, I believe.

Also, on Nespresso, bear in mind there are two *entirely incompatible* pod systems - the inspiringly named "Original" ('cos it was, y'know, the original pod shape), and the newer Vertuo. The Original pods look like a large Rollo chocolate, and the Vertuo are sort-of semi-circular. Each system has advantages and disadvantages.

*Original*

- pods are cheaper, and available from a wide variety of third-party suppliers. Quality varies with those, though. Some good, some not so much.

- pods are smaller, and can only make smaller-sized drinks ("espresso2" sized, Gran Lungo, which is medium-cup ize)

*Vertuo*

- newer, but protected by IP laws. You can get pods from Nespresso, Nespresso or Nespresso.

- includes bigger sizes. "Mug" is one up from the Gran Lungo, and Alto .... well, he probably won't have big enough mugs or glasses, except maybe a punt beer mug.

- the cost is partly higher, no doubt, due to IP protection but also in part because there's quite a bit more coffee in the bigger pods, to make the bigger drinks.

So I'd say, if you go the Nespresso route, get him an "Original" machine if he like small to medium coffees, but Vertuo if he likes a decent mug, or bigger. I also think the Vertuo are a bit easier to use. Each pod has a bar code embedded telling the machine exactly what to do, how long to run for, how much water to pump. All the user has to do is put a large enough cup under the spout, and press the Start button. Oh, and don't forget to put a cup there, or you make a bit of a mess.

Nespresso do also sell separate milk "frothers". You will get, essentially, slightly frothy hot-ish milk and can make something that looks much like a cappuccino or long white, but don't expect to get the silky smooth milk required for latte art.

Finally, if it's a "special" present, from a group of you, you can get relatively high end machines in the Originals range. Called Creatista and the Pro versionnof it, they're around £450 (Creatista) and £650 (Creatista Pro) and these, and a limited number of other machines, do come with a slightly more conventional steam wand" for that latte feel. Kinda. But that's a lot for a Nespresso machine.

Overall, I second the comment made in that Hoffmann video - is he looking for a coffee machine, or a new hobby? If you go down the full espresso route, then he better be after the latter. You can get machines that *almost* automate the process, and that video shows one - the Sage Oracle Touch. It does most of the awkward bits for you, generally reasonably well. But, .... £2000. Ad sooner or later, he's likely to start thinking "Need a better grinder", and down the rabbithole of an espresso "hobby" he goes.

Good luck.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

My neighbour has a lavazza machine seems ok for the money and there was an offer on a machine for£1 if you bought a pod subscription https://www.lavazza.co.uk/en/lavazza-my-way/machine-and-capsules-subscription.html

otherwise nespresso capsules can be bought with decent coffee https://ravecoffee.co.uk/products/nespresso-compatible-coffee-pods-signature-blend

https://cliftoncoffee.co.uk/shop/coffee/blends/village-capsules/


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## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

HDAV said:


> .... otherwise nespresso capsules can be bought with decent coffee https://ravecoffee.co.uk/products/nespresso-compatible-coffee-pods-signature-blend
> 
> https://cliftoncoffee.co.uk/shop/coffee/blends/village-capsules/


 For "Original" machines, yes. Not for Vertuo. Or not that I've ever seen, anyway.

You *can* get replacement seals and a little doohickey that lets you reuse Vertuo pods by washing them out, filling with with your own grind and resealing *but *the amount of coffee in each of the 5 physical sizes of Vertuo pod varies, presumably according to Nespresso's profiling. I know for a certainty that if you take a Vertuo pod of a given size (say, mug) and compare coffee weight with another flavour of "mug" capsule, the weight of coffee is likely to be different. And presumably, so is the amount of water used. It makes refilling a bit of a lottery, because the pod instructions are embedded on the pod, in that barcode. You're starting to get into "hobby" territory again, at that point.

That £1 for a machine deal is still on. You just have to sign up to 2 years of £x/month subscription, that can then be used on coffee, accessories (cups, g;asses, etc).

For instance, that £650 machine is available for £1 but, you sign up to £70/month subscription. But if there's several of you, say 4, each drinking 2 cups per day, i.e. 8 cups in total, you'll probably drink more than £70/month of coffee anyway, in which case, the £650 is, effectively free, but at a cost of about £1700 in coffee. over two years. Most cheaper machines are available for £1 too, and for a lot less than £70/month. It's a pretty sweet deal, provided he'l drink the necessary coffee.

Oh, and that subscription payment (£70/month in my example) does NOT have to be spent that month. You commit to paying *in* by that amount, not to when you order against it. You can order what you want, against credit built up, and all you have to do is use it within 2 years *of the subscription ending*, i.e. with 4 years of taking it out. Which effectively means, buying about £35/month of pods, for 4 years. Which, roughly, is 70 capsules/month. Or no, actually, a bit more than that, 'cos that was using Vertuo pricing, and for Originals, it's more like 100 pods, or a bit more, per month. But of course, do that and it pretty much locks you into buying pods from Nespresso, not third parties.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

It's not like coffee is free but for a lot of people it is a fad..... you could do a lot worse than manual espresso machine like a gaggia or rancilio and a ground coffee subscription it will at least have some value in future unlike most of the pod machines


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## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

HDAV said:


> It's not like coffee is free but for a lot of people it is a fad..... you could do a lot worse than manual espresso machine like a gaggia or rancilio and a ground coffee subscription it will at least have some value in future unlike most of the pod machines


 If it was for someone interested in coffee then absolutely. But he did say it is for some that was



> ... only young and isnt really interested in weighing and grinding his own beans etc and making it an art form, he is looking for relatively quick and easy but of course nice!


 That sounds like a pod machine to me, and if it's on a deal like those currently running, the machine costs next to nothing in the first place, if it's £99 and comes with about £50-£60 quid's worth of pods. That probably wouldn't be right for people interested in coffee, as most members of a forum like this are, but the pod machines are certainly quick and easy. "Nice" is a very subjective assessment.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

You don't have to weigh and grind and time etc I have 2 mates loving preground coffee and using the scoop that comes with a classic and the plastic tamp they do a better job with milk than the pod machines generally and have the ability to go further at some point in the future and without the excessive waste of pods......


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