# Shot Size



## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

What is the size of the ideal shot? I only ask this is because I believe it highlights a dichotomy that divides old and new world philosophies to making espresso. If I asked this question in one of the many English speaking forums the answers I would get would typically range from 1oz (30ml) - 1.5oz (44ml) with 1oz generally considered to be norm. However, according to the Italian Espresso National Institute a shot size should be 25ml ± 2.5.

I think that this underlines a key difference in philosophy. The Italian's are trying to create a standardised definition for an artisanal product, in a similar way to a fine regional wine or cheese. On the other side you have people (primarily in the US) that are constantly redefining what constitutes a good espresso. Out of this experimentation has come lots of new ideas like updosing, the use of single estate beans, naked portafilters etc. all partially fuelled and facilitated by forums like this. It has also increased the size of the standard shot by 5-19ml (which incidentally is one of the reasons I think updosing became necessary). Interestingly my shot glass from CoffeeHit shows a single shot at 25ml and ristretto at 20ml. My Illy cups can't even hold a 60ml double shot (they can but you won't be able to drink from it without spillage). All of which points to me being an old school kinda guy, which I suppose I am. My first memorable espresso was in Italy and to some extent this will always be my benchmark. That said, I don't think it follows that tradition is always better than change neither do I think that all progress is for the better.

I would be interested in what others think especially in Britain. Coffee-wise do we align ourselves closer to America than Europe?


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Thanks for the link to that website - I've not come across it before.

Like you, my first experience of espresso was in Italy, and I pretty much stick to the standard Italian definition in what I brew for myself. I have a great dislike of the bucket-like quantities of both espresso and cappuccino that seem to be the hallmark of most US coffee.

...and hey, if you put more than 25ml of coffee in an espresso cup, where's the room for the grappa? ;>)))


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

vintagecigarman said:


> I have a great dislike of the bucket-like quantities of both espresso and cappuccino that seem to be the hallmark of most US coffee.


I think some of this comes about from the difference in café cultures. In Italy espresso is principally served in small bars where you tend to stand up, drink and go. In contrast US style coffee shops encourage lounging and are as much about providing a social meeting place as they are about coffee. Therefore coffee is served long to facilitate social discourse.

I should also perhaps mention the important antipodean influence on British coffee culture - there seem to be a growing number of artisanal coffee shops run by kiwis and aussies who care about coffee. This can only be a good thing against the onslaught of American style chains.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

There's a lingering social element to coffee drinking in Italy as well as the stand-up-espresso culture. But instead of serving cappuccino in buckets, lingering is encouraged (particularly outside) by:

1. A long wait before someone comes to take your order

2. A longer wait until your order arrives

3. An even longer wait to be presented with the bill

I know which I prefer!


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

vintagecigarman said:


> There's a lingering social element to coffee drinking in Italy as well as the stand-up-espresso culture. But instead of serving cappuccino in buckets, lingering is encouraged (particularly outside) by:
> 
> 1. A long wait before someone comes to take your order
> 
> ...


Made me chuckle. I hate waiting, but don't mind lingering with food and drink already in my possession.


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## LeeWardle (Nov 16, 2008)

Love this thread. Much discussion to be had I think.

Myself and Chiriasdad were chatting about a similar topic on PM actually. I generally change the fluid volume and/or the dosage as the particular bean requires it. I find that as every coffee is different, keeping them to a set dose/volume is counter productive. Even if you buy the same blend all the time, it will obviously change slightly. Even if just from the green bean storage!

That said there are a few beans/blends that I will vary in the Grams/Ml's department as and when I fancy a different tasting cup. I really love the mouth-feel and deep richness you get form a short up-dosed espresso, but I also enjoy a fresh, lively and bright espresso that a 14g 60Ml espresso gives me.

As for the coffee house/social side I tend to do a bit of both and order a nice short espresso/ristretto/mac alongside a longer drink to lounge with. I'll ask the barista to make the short first and i'll drink it at the bar whist having a chat with him/her before sitting down!

Lee


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## YouriV (Dec 4, 2008)

Short for me, almost always. 20 ml is usually what I am after.

Although some coffees will actually work better with bigger shots. I don't think that there is an ideal size. Different for every coffee and customer.


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

Now that looks like an espresso


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Magic thick cup - mind if I ask what make they are?


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## LeeWardle (Nov 16, 2008)

hi Youri! Good to see you on the forum!

I'd be interested to have Glenns input on this topic as another trainer/consultant.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Each coffee has a different requirement and tipping point

When dialling in a coffee I will try and aim for 26-28mls in 25 seconds or thereabouts and tweak as necessary

This gives me a constant to work to but no two coffees behave the same way (and no two roasts are identical either)


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## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

15-20ml or so is the shot size I like best for myself. Sometimes less than that if it's a coffee I like extra-thick. But I'm the only espresso drinker in the house, and I loosen up the grind a bit if I'm drawing shots for my wife's latte or for company.


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## liquidmonkey2000 (Oct 4, 2010)

Its interesting and encouraging to see that on this forum that the preferred shot sizes are definitely towards the shorter "european" end of the spectrum.


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