# Questions on EY/TDS etc.



## Jon

Mrboots2u said:


> I enjoy a 5oz cap with a shot in it .
> 
> My "doubles " are 45-47g so split is ok
> 
> I never drink anything bigger than a 4.5 - 5.5z drink really
> 
> This next bit may be all bollocks but i prefer the taste of a split shot , there is something about the way it splits in the cup , how three sips , taste different , to one big double
> 
> Plus i enjoy an espresso and a milk drink ..I think im one of the few on here that drinks espresso every day ...


Sorry may I ask a few questions please Martin - can move elsewhere if preferable?

1. are you referring to taking each side of a (double basket) shot and doing something with it - or is a split shot something else waaay more technical!?

2. Are you pulling these 45g shots from 18g-20g?

3. Are you measuring EY on all these - how's that % value typically being calculated?


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## Mrboots2u

Answers in shouty capitals which then didn't come out



jonc said:


> sorry may i ask a few questions please martin - can move elsewhere if preferable?
> 
> 1. Are you referring to taking each side of a (double basket) shot and doing something with it - or is a split shot something else waaay more technical!?
> 
> Correct its that simple . I use spouts
> 
> 2. Are you pulling these 45g shots from 18g-20g? 20g dose > 44-50 coffee and roast dependent .
> 
> 3. Are you measuring ey on all these - how's that % value typically being calculated? I did for these shots , i can generally get ball park now on tds guessing and ey guessing , these i measured , as its such a nuts coffee i wanted to see where i could push the extraction. I use filters which arent cheap


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## Jon

Thanks. More questions may follow!


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## Jon

20>50 is pretty epic.


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## Mrboots2u

jonc said:


> 20>50 is pretty epic.


More often 20> 46-47 ish

Best shots seem to come at 22 ey plus

Trick is getting them and retaining a reasonable strength

These are shots in the 28 seconds plus region


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## Jon

Ok - thanks - this is interesting to me. I'm increasingly seeing the value of approaching this scientifically - much as I hated science in my younger years - what do you recommend using to take TDS measurements?


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## Mrboots2u

jonc said:


> Ok - thanks - this is interesting to me. I'm increasingly seeing the value of approaching this scientifically - much as I hated science in my younger years - what do you recommend using to take TDS measurements?


Vst refractometer not cheap , but good

If you don't do brewed too will be over kill


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## garydyke1

Telescope in Paris run 21g into 60g


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## Jon

So at EY of 22% you have 4.4g TDS in 46g/47g?


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## Jon

Mrboots2u said:


> Vst refractometer not cheap , but good
> 
> If you don't do brewed too will be over kill


I'm too impatient for all the brewed methods I've tried so far.


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## Jon

garydyke1 said:


> Telescope in Paris run 21g into 60g


Is this using EKs?


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## Mrboots2u

jonc said:


> Is this using EKs?


Yep


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## Jon

Ah. You and telescope?

So realistically me and my MC2 will be much more in the 20>40 camp.

p.s. I don't have an MC2 - yet!


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## Thecatlinux

Do you ever slam some beans in , and run the shot without timing or weighing the output and do it by gut instinct

(a rebel shot )


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## Jon

Lol. No. Sometimes I regrind the grounds though.


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## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> Are you Noah ?
> 
> Do you ever slam some beans in , and run the shot without timing or weighing the output and do it by gut instinct
> 
> (a rebel shot )


There is a timer in the mâchine , so no

I always use scales ....why wouldn't I ....


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## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> There is a timer in the mâchine , so no
> 
> I always use scales ....why wouldn't I ....


Because you can


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## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> Because you can


I could grind the beans in the juicer too

Doesn't mean I should


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## MWJB

jonc said:


> Ah. You and telescope?
> 
> So realistically me and my MC2 will be much more in the 20>40 camp.
> 
> p.s. I don't have an MC2 - yet!


No, you can pull a shot at whatever ratio you want. The limiting factors are that shorter shots make it hard to get a full extraction, the more water you run through the puck the more solids you will wash out, but at the same time you will dilute the shot further.

A decent, traditional espresso grinder might let you make well extracted shots from say 1.4:1 to 2:1, maybe in the 18-20% extraction region. 18-20% is frequently thought to be relatively under-extracted with an EK, so these shots tend to be 21% plus, longer to facilitate the higher extraction & also to keep intensity in check.

But you could pull traditional grinder shots at 3 or 4:1 if your grind was good & you didn't mind weaker shots.

So, to recap, you could pull a 2.35:1 shot on any grinder, an EK shot might be 9.3%TDS at 22.5% Extraction Yield. A regular grinder's shot may be more like 8.5%TDS but at 20% Extraction Yield (a little weaker at the same weight in the cup). Most folk would however aim more like 2:1 and be looking for a stronger shot with a thicker mouthfeel from the regular grinder, say 1.9:1 & 10%TDS, around 19% Extraction Yield. Once you are over your minimum shot length for a target extraction yield, theoretically at least, you could pull as long as you like accepting the trade off in strength.

Extraction yield is calculated using TDS, but they are somewhat independent of each other, 10%TDS could be anything from 13%EY to 23%EY depending on shot length & grind profile/grinder.


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## Jon

MWJB said:


> No, you can pull a shot at whatever ratio you want. The limiting factors are that shorter shots make it hard to get a full extraction, the more water you run through the puck the more solids you will wash out, but at the same time you will dilute the shot further.
> 
> A decent, traditional espresso grinder might let you make well extracted shots from say 1.4:1 to 2:1, maybe in the 18-20% extraction region. 18-20% is frequently thought to be relatively under-extracted with an EK, so these shots tend to be 21% plus, longer to facilitate the higher extraction & also to keep intensity in check.
> 
> But you could pull traditional grinder shots at 3 or 4:1 if your grind was good & you didn't mind weaker shots.
> 
> So, to recap, you could pull a 2.35:1 shot on any grinder, an EK shot might be 9.3%TDS at 22.5% Extraction Yield. A regular grinder's shot may be more like 8.5%TDS but at 20% Extraction Yield (a little weaker at the same weight in the cup). Most folk would however aim more like 2:1 and be looking for a stronger shot with a thicker mouthfeel from the regular grinder, say 1.9:1 & 10%TDS, around 19% Extraction Yield. Once you are over your minimum shot length for a target extraction yield, theoretically at least, you could pull as long as you like accepting the trade off in strength.
> 
> Extraction yield is calculated using TDS, but they are somewhat independent of each other, 10%TDS could be anything from 13%EY to 23%EY depending on shot length & grind profile/grinder.


But with most cheaper grinders I've used previously I found the shots got very bitter (over-extracted?) very quickly if you tried to pull too long a shot? I assumed this was due to the irregularity of grind size - something obviously the EKs counter.


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## MWJB

OK, 2 possibilities, your bitterness could be another level of under-extraction/uneven extraction rather than over-extraction (bitterness doesn't have a single cause), you didn't coarsen up the grind to accommodate the longer shot.

Let's say a grinder has a target extraction yield range of 18.5-20.5%, based on its grind distribution, you'd aim for that 18.5-20.5% at whatever ratio, adjusting coarseness/fineness to suit? E.g. one grind setting for a given bean will work maybe at 1.9:1, but if you pull 3:1, without a grind adjustment, you may overextract (or get chanelling), so for 3:1 you'd grind coarser, still aiming 18.5-20.5%.

You are always ideally aiming for the same extraction range. At a given brew ratio you adjust grind to hit it. Brew ratio sets the strength concentration of the drink, assuming you are hitting your target EY range. If you can't hit the target EY at a short ratio, go longer.


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## Mrboots2u

So you can hit 18-20% ey across different brew ratios , some will be stronger than others, and may be perceived to have more or less "mouthfeel "

If you are aiming for 19% plus ey thats gonna be hard to do at ristretto level without some taste imbalance

18 g in 27 g , the resulting shot would be really really strong and over powering to get to 19% plus . If that strength could even be reached with the gear in use ...

The shorter a shot goes , the harder it is to hit these target extraction yields...


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## jeebsy

MWJB said:


> Οἱ δὲ Φοίνιϰες οὗτοι οἱ σὺν Κάδμῳ ἀπιϰόμενοι.. ἐσήγαγον διδασϰάλια ἐς τοὺς ῞Ελληνας ϰαὶ δὴ ϰαὶ γράμματα, οὐϰ ἐόντα πρὶν ῞Ελλησι ὡς ἐμοὶ δοϰέειν, πρῶτα μὲν τοῖσι ϰαὶ ἅπαντες χρέωνται Φοίνιϰες· μετὰ δὲ χρόνου προβαίνοντος ἅμα τῇ ϕωνῇ μετέβαλον ϰαὶ τὸν ϱυϑμὸν τῶν γραμμάτων. Περιοίϰεον δέ σϕεας τὰ πολλὰ τῶν χώρων τοῦτον τὸν χρόνον ῾Ελλήνων ῎Ιωνες· οἳ παραλαβόντες διδαχῇ παρὰ τῶν Φοινίϰων τὰ γράμματα, μεταρρυϑμίσαντές σϕεων ὀλίγα ἐχρέωντο, χρεώμενοι δὲ ἐϕάτισαν, ὥσπερ ϰαὶ τὸ δίϰαιον ἔϕερε ἐσαγαγόντων Φοινίϰων ἐς τὴν ῾Ελλάδα, ϕοινιϰήια ϰεϰλῆσϑαι.


It's still like Greek to me.


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## Mrboots2u

Mrboots2u said:


> So you can hit 18-20% ey across different brew ratios , some will be stronger than others, and may be perceived to have more or less "mouthfeel "
> 
> If you are aiming for 19% plus ey thats gonna be hard to do at ristretto level without some taste imbalance
> 
> 18 g in 27 g , the resulting shot would be really really strong and over powering to get to 19% plus . If that strength could even be reached with the gear in use ...
> 
> The shorter a shot goes , the harder it is to hit these target extraction yields...


That's not to say their isn't value in ristretto , it just means there is a trade off of strength and mouthfeel versus tastes at different extraction yields


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## MWJB

jeebsy said:


> It's still like Greek to me.


High strength & good extraction = Strong yum

Low strength & good extraction = Weak yum

High strength & low extraction = Strong & sour

Low strength & low extraction = Weak & sour

Bitter = bitter.


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## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> High strength & good extraction = Strong yum
> 
> Low strength & good extraction = Weak yum
> 
> High strength & low extraction = Strong & sour
> 
> Low strength & low extraction = Weak & sour
> 
> Bitter = bitter.


Where does Nom fit into this?


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## jeebsy

I really need to sit down, take some notes on this and try to make sense of it rather than just getting confused and thinking it's too complicated every time it comes up. Do any of Rao's books cover this or will I just need to trawl your posts?


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## fluffles

Mrboots2u said:


> So you can hit 18-20% ey across different brew ratios , some will be stronger than others, and may be perceived to have more or less "mouthfeel "
> 
> If you are aiming for 19% plus ey thats gonna be hard to do at ristretto level without some taste imbalance
> 
> 18 g in 27 g , the resulting shot would be really really strong and over powering to get to 19% plus . If that strength could even be reached with the gear in use ...
> 
> The shorter a shot goes , the harder it is to hit these target extraction yields...


Is it possible to get higher EY ristretto by grinding fine enough to have a shot that takes longer to come through? Extreme example 18g in 18g out in 5 minutes


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## Mrboots2u

fluffles said:


> Is it possible to get higher EY ristretto by grinding fine enough to have a shot that takes longer to come through? Extreme example 18g in 18g out in 5 minutes


Give it a go

I think coffee in a pf that long would be burnt though .....


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## MWJB

Mrboots2u said:


> Where does Nom fit into this?


Is a nom, like a num num?


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## Sk8-bizarre

Kim Jong Nom


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## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> High strength & good extraction = Strong yum
> 
> Low strength & good extraction = Weak yum
> 
> High strength & low extraction = Strong & sour
> 
> Low strength & low extraction = Weak & sour
> 
> Bitter = bitter.


Where does the hump and pre hump and nom git into this ( nom is not num num , nom is nom - in the words of opus )


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## Jon

WOW - I've started something that's made my head hurt. Appreciate all the responses so far - it's making sense - just!


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## Sk8-bizarre

Mrboots2u said:


> nom git


A person who enjoys their food and drink a lot but is an arse.


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## Beanosaurus

fluffles said:


> Is it possible to get higher EY ristretto by grinding fine enough to have a shot that takes longer to come through? Extreme example 18g in 18g out in 5 minutes


If you have the ability to use lower conventional brewing pressure (4.5-7bar) and drop your brewing temp for given bean a few degrees then the Super Ritretto™ is achievable - time with an 18-19g VST dose say around 40-50 seconds, I usually output 1-1.4:1.


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## MWJB

fluffles said:


> Is it possible to get higher EY ristretto by grinding fine enough to have a shot that takes longer to come through? Extreme example 18g in 18g out in 5 minutes


There's probably a limit imposed by the grind itself if too fine...if the water can't evenly extract the puck, the EY will drop. A 1:1 shot would typically be under-extracted, but might hit another, lower, preference range?

Nominally extracted ristrettos around 1.3 to 1.4:1 are certainly possible, with suitably developed coffee in 'normal' shot times.


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## Sk8-bizarre

I am going to read all this later when people don't keep coming over trying to talk to me about work!!

Having said that without owning a refractometer thingy and being able to take readings would it render it all pointless? I'll read it anyway, just curious as I got lost ages ago so need time to absorb the words......


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## Mrboots2u

Beanosaurus said:


> If you have the ability to use lower conventional brewing pressure (4.5-7bar) and drop your brewing temp for given bean a few degrees then the Super Ritretto™ is achievable - time with an 18-19g VST dose say around 40-50 seconds, I usually output 1-1.4:1.


They would be very strong though

13 tds ? to get to 18% EY??


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## MWJB

Sk8-bizarre said:


> I am going to read all this later when people don't keep coming over trying to talk to me about work!!
> 
> Having said that without owning a refractometer thingy and being able to take readings would it render it all pointless? I'll read it anyway, just curious as I got lost ages ago so need time to absorb the words......


A refractometer helps you confirm where you are EY-wise (it measures what you have already made, it doesn't change the taste of the shot in the cup), but if you dialled in by taste to get sweet & balanced shots, you'd likely find they fell in a narrow range of EY & sour/tart shots would fall in another. Trouble is, if you're not in the 'good' range, wherever that may be, it's not always obvious where to go next if things aren't tasting right. If you are changing lots of things at the same time (dose, ratio & grind - rather than just grind) you are adding too many variables to systematically track the effect of the changes.


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## Sk8-bizarre

MWJB said:


> If you are changing lots of things at the same time (dose, ratio & grind - rather than just grind) you are adding too many variables to systematically track the effect of the changes.


Ahhh yes I have tripped with both left feet on this stumbling block a few times.


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## Beanosaurus

Mrboots2u said:


> They would be very strong though
> 
> 13 tds ? to get to 18% EY??


Depends on grind, last few times I've done this I've gone a bit coarser and used heavy nutation, the pressure isn't static either - more lever like.

Should also mention I don't always neck these straight! - Makes for a heavenly 5/6oz milky.


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## Mrboots2u

Beanosaurus said:


> Depends on grind, last few times I've done this I've gone a bit coarser and used heavy nutation, the pressure isn't static either - more lever like.
> 
> Should also mention I don't always neck these straight! - Makes for a heavenly 5/6oz milky.


Is nominal extraction measured via a vst then ?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

jeebsy said:


> I really need to sit down, take some notes on this and try to make sense of it rather than just getting confused and thinking it's too complicated every time it comes up. Do any of Rao's books cover this or will I just need to trawl your posts?


I thought this was a well written introduction of the basic concepts you need to be able to get your head around. It's basic, and highly unlikely to have anything you don't already know in there but worth 5 minutes to refresh thinking.

http://coffeestrides.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/why-do-we-measure-everything-extraction.html?m=1


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## jeebsy

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> I thought this was a well written introduction of the basic concepts you need to be able to get your head around. It's basic, and highly unlikely to have anything you don't already know in there but worth 5 minutes to refresh thinking.
> 
> http://coffeestrides.blogspot.co.uk/2014/06/why-do-we-measure-everything-extraction.html?m=1


Cheers, I looked at that briefly earlier but sort of gave up when I saw Douwe Egberts mentioned. Will go through it again (and pay attention) later


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## jeebsy

> Adding water to dilute a drink after brewing affects strength but not yield (as the grounds are no longer present) - an Americano differs from an espresso simply by being weaker, more dilute (American preparation may also eliminate the crema).


This is what i struggle with


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

Yeah, I can see how that would happen.


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## MWJB

OK, this is like the instant coffee scenario. The coffee is made, it is already extracted. If you add lots of water to a spoonful of instant you get a weaker cup at whatever the yield was when the instant was brewed (before it was put in the jar - you're not "brewing", just hydrating & diluting). Same for an Americano, or bypassing a drip, or Aeropress brew - once the beverage has left the brewer, separated from the grinds & is sitting in the cup/carafe, the extraction has happened, you can't change that, you can just dilute the liquid to change the strength/concentration.

E.g. 10g dose 100g beverage at 20% is for argument's sake (gross simplification) 2g of coffee in the cup @ 2%TDS. Now add 100g more of water to the brewed coffee...there's no more coffee added to the cup, just water, so that 20% extraction (2g) now makes up 1% of the mass of the cup. Half as strong, same EY.


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## Sk8-bizarre

Layman's terms!! Brilliant!


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## Beanosaurus

Mrboots2u said:


> Is nominal extraction measured via a vst then ?


Soz Boots, I don't have the numbers though the methodology pleases the palate.


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## Mrboots2u

Beanosaurus said:


> Soz Boots, I don't have the numbers though the methodology pleases the palate.


First Taste - That s all that matters . if you enjoy it then its a good extraction

When I Talk of nominal extraction i am referring to 18-20 ey.

Tasty doesn't always conform to this box though. Often over dossed ristretto can be tasty and sweet but are more than likely in the pre hump nom Somewhere ( say 16 ey ).


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

MWJB said:


> OK, this is like the instant coffee scenario. The coffee is made, it is already extracted. If you add lots of water to a spoonful of instant you get a weaker cup at whatever the yield was when the instant was brewed (before it was put in the jar - you're not "brewing", just hydrating & diluting). Same for an Americano, or bypassing a drip, or Aeropress brew - once the beverage has left the brewer, separated from the grinds & is sitting in the cup/carafe, the extraction has happened, you can't change that, you can just dilute the liquid to change the strength/concentration.
> 
> E.g. 10g dose 100g beverage at 20% is for argument's sake (gross simplification) 2g of coffee in the cup @ 2%TDS. Now add 100g more of water to the brewed coffee...there's no more coffee added to the cup, just water, so that 20% extraction (2g) now makes up 1% of the mass of the cup. Half as strong, same EY.


Well put...understanding the difference and the interaction between extraction and strength was my biggest breakthrough. Having said that, there's such a long way to go!


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## jeebsy

So EY is what percentage of the TDS is extracted, which is why you get weak under, strong under etc?


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## Jon

jeebsy said:


> So EY is what percentage of the TDS is extracted, which is why you get weak under, strong under etc?


EY - I believe - is the TDS divided by dry grounds.

e.g. 20% (EY) = 4g (tds)/20g (ground coffee)

So it's the percentage of ground coffee that extracts into the cup (total dissolved solids)


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## jeebsy

Slowly things might be falling into place


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## Jon

Well to be honest I only figured that yesterday after much reading!


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## fluffles

TDS- how much of the solution in your cup is coffee

EY- how much of the dry coffee you started with ended up in the cup


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## jlarkin

jonc said:


> EY - I believe - is the TDS divided by dry grounds.
> 
> e.g. 20% (EY) = 4g (tds)/20g (ground coffee)
> 
> So it's the percentage of ground coffee that extracts into the cup (total dissolved solids)


I think this is wrong. EY calculation is TDS x brewing water weight divided by amount of grind coffee from what I understood


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## garydyke1

Keep it simples:

Extraction yield = how much dissolvable stuff from your dry dose made it into the cup

(flavour/how good a job you did)

TDS = What percentage of the liquid in your cup is the dissolvable solids

(Strength / mouthfeel)


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## The Systemic Kid

Extraction yield is calculated differently for pour over/espresso and immersion methods. For immersion, you calculate using the weight of water used in the brew. For pour over/espresso, you calculate using the brewed coffee weight.


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## Step21

garydyke1 said:


> Keep it simples:
> 
> Extraction yield = how much dissolvable stuff from your dry dose made it into the cup
> 
> (flavour/how good a job you did)
> 
> )


But...

2 different brews (using a different brew ratio or different brewer or different method) of the same bean with the same calculated EY can taste very different. A "good" EY doesn't guarantee "good flavour" (but increases the chances).


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## Mrboots2u

Step21 said:


> But...
> 
> 2 different brews (using a different brew ratio or different brewer or different method) of the same bean with the same calculated EY can taste very different. A "good" EY doesn't guarantee "good flavour" (but increases the chances).


Think of Ey is a measure. It doesn't dictate good . it's just a measure of what's in the cup.

Tasty is preference but measuring it allows you to repeat or repair.


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## Thecatlinux

I'm not taking the p... Has anyone tested taken values from a Nespresso machine


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## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> I'm not taking the p... Has anyone tested taken values from a Nespresso machine


Yes think james hoffman is or is gong to do

http://www.jimseven.com/2015/05/21/an-analysis-of-nespresso-part-i/

this might be worth a read

http://kostverlorenvaart.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/the-instant-nespresso-experiment.html


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## MWJB

Yes, can be higher than we typically see, but without obvious overextraction (mid 20's%EY), lungos at prescribed length (110ml) can be overextracted & taste it (29%EY)...still tastes like Nespresso, but bearing that in mind, they seem to be able to shift the box up a bit, as with the EK, they're probably not using typical grind distributions like those that were the basis for the 18-22% region of interest.


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## Thecatlinux

You guys never disappoint


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

jeebsy said:


> So EY is what percentage of the TDS is extracted, which is why you get weak under, strong under etc?


It's a bugger isn't it? EY is how much of the dry dose ended up getting extracted. tds is how much dissolved coffee there is in your drink.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

I think that something we don't talk as much about, but which is very relevant is the limitations of the equipment that we all use. Of course I'm thinking of grinders really.

So, I could make a brew at home with my Hausgrind and I could get it hitting 23-24% EY but it would taste terrible. As it happens, I've learned that the limit for this grinder is around 20-21% EY. There will be people on the forum that will struggle to extract 18% and have a tasty drink. Some of us are very lucky, we have EKs and R120s and the like. With these grinders, tasty drinks at 24% is achievable. It does raise some questions for us roasters though......things would be a lot easier if a drink that tastes amazing at 24% was also be guaranteed to taste amazing at 18%. Sadly, not the case.


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## Krax

garydyke1 said:


> Keep it simples:
> 
> Extraction yield = how much dissolvable stuff from your dry dose made it into the cup
> 
> (flavour/how good a job you did)
> 
> TDS = What percentage of the liquid in your cup is the dissolvable solids
> 
> (Strength / mouthfeel)


Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, some really helpful explanations have been expanded on in response to the questions raised

So if I have understood correctly, with the grinder setting optimised and starting with an 18g dose, if I cut the shot after 27-30 secs with 36g in the cup for a Brew Ratio of 2:1, if I had managed to achieve an EY of 20% I would have 3.6g of dissolved solids in the cup and a TDS of 10%. If I then were to top up with hot water to say 90g for an Americano , the EY would be the same and the TDS value 4%, just a weaker drink with the same flavours present only perhaps not detectable and having lost the mouthfeel.

I do not have an EK, anyone know what EYs can be achieved with an SJ?


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## Step21

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> I think that something we don't talk as much about, but which is very relevant is the limitations of the equipment that we all use. Of course I'm thinking of grinders really.
> 
> So, I could make a brew at home with my Hausgrind and I could get it hitting 23-24% EY but it would taste terrible. As it happens, I've learned that the limit for this grinder is around 20-21% EY. There will be people on the forum that will struggle to extract 18% and have a tasty drink. Some of us are very lucky, we have EKs and R120s and the like. With these grinders, tasty drinks at 24% is achievable. It does raise some questions for us roasters though......things would be a lot easier if a drink that tastes amazing at 24% was also be guaranteed to taste amazing at 18%. Sadly, not the case.


What kind of brew? Most of my Immersion brews are 23%+ EY using the Hausgrind and they taste great in general (to me). With pourover (Chemex) i'd say that 21.5% ish is pretty much the max for tasty brews (i've had a fair few good ones in the 21.5% range). I find it depends more on the individual bean (and possibly how it's roasted?) than the Hausgrind.

Saying that, i'd certainly swap it for the quality grinders you mention. There is a bit of a chasm in price between them though... Probably easier to get hold of an EK though!


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## MWJB

Krax said:


> Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread, some really helpful explanations have been expanded on in response to the questions raised
> 
> So if I have understood correctly, with the grinder setting optimised and starting with an 18g dose, if I cut the shot after 27-30 secs with 36g in the cup for a Brew Ratio of 2:1, if I had managed to achieve an EY of 20% I would have 3.6g of dissolved solids in the cup and a TDS of 10%. If I then were to top up with hot water to say 90g for an Americano , the EY would be the same and the TDS value 4%, just a weaker drink with the same flavours present only perhaps not detectable and having lost the mouthfeel.
> 
> I do not have an EK, anyone know what EYs can be achieved with an SJ?


The time, 27-30seconds, doesn't guarantee a certain TDS or EY. But yes, you have a simplified grasp of what's going on, Coffeetools does the necessary corrections to reflect real world scenario.

The EY you can hit with the SJ should be in the 18-21% range, depending on prep, roast, brew ratio, water, etc.


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## Thecatlinux

I am finding With lighter roasts Ascertaining over and under extraction difficult to recognise , when it tastes good it doesn't matter to me ,

Tips on a distinct taste in either direction would most helpful to me and I am sure many others .

Did think of starting a new thread, but this seemed a good place to post.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

Step21 said:


> What kind of brew? Most of my Immersion brews are 23%+ EY using the Hausgrind and they taste great in general (to me).


Both immersion and drip (v60 and Aeropress). With my grinder, there seems to be a sweet spot that for most coffees is in the 20.5 to 21% range. After that, there are usually less desirable flavours creeping in. Your grinder may be better (e.g. Better burr alignment or burr condition) or it may be that you prefer different flavours. In not knocking the Hausgrind. It's an amazing grinder for the money and I would recommend them to anyone. It's when you fire up the R120 that you see whole new avenues opening up, flavour wise.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

Thecatlinux said:


> I am finding With lighter roasts Ascertaining over and under extraction difficult to recognise , when it tastes good it doesn't matter to me ,
> 
> Tips on a distinct taste in either direction would most helpful to me and I am sure many others .
> 
> Did think of starting a new thread, but this seemed a good place to post.


As a general rule, I extract hard from the beginning and work backward, until everything gets tasty for me. Your comment about when it tastes good, it doesn't matter is spot on. Measuring is just a bit like having a map, particularly when you really like the flavours you're getting but you're not happy with the strength of the brew, just makes it a lot easier to understand what's going on.


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## Thecatlinux

When you say extract hard, do you mean fine grind and then 'loosen' to adjust taste


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

Yeah, start with higher temps and/or fine grind. Will usually start with what I know is just too fine on the grinder for most coffees. That way I'm getting everything and and can just roll back until I get just the flavours I want in there.


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## MWJB

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Both immersion and drip (v60 and Aeropress). With my grinder, there seems to be a sweet spot that for most coffees is in the 20.5 to 21% range. After that, there are usually less desirable flavours creeping in. Your grinder may be better (e.g. Better burr alignment or burr condition) or it may be that you prefer different flavours. In not knocking the Hausgrind. It's an amazing grinder for the money and I would recommend them to anyone. It's when you fire up the R120 that you see whole new avenues opening up, flavour wise.


I like immersions in the 23-26% range too, sweet & juicy with no undesirable flavours, doesn't seem to matter what grinder is used as long as you can keep fines/small particles out of the cup. My drip preferences fall more like 18.5% to 21.5% typically.


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## Thecatlinux

Probably where I have gone wrong with lighter roasts is worked in the other direction and tightened the grind to achieve my taste.

i am currently trying the Karengera from you lee , your remark of a spikey espresso is quite accurate it's a big shift on the Kony from the rocko


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

Thecatlinux said:


> Probably where I have gone wrong with lighter roasts is worked in the other direction and tightened the grind to achieve my taste.


It's whatever works for you. For me, I like to know where the limits are first and it's simpler for me to know that I'm only going to be going one way, i.e. less and less extraction.


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## jeebsy

As if by magic:

http://baristahustle.com/analyzing-espresso-recipes-strength/


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> As if by magic:
> 
> http://baristahustle.com/analyzing-espresso-recipes-strength/


Nice simple article. It was prompted by comments from the previous week where it became apparent a ton of people were not understanding what was being referred to as " strong or strength "


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## garydyke1

''For drip/filter, I prefer anywhere from 1.3-1.7% TDS. Any weaker than 1.3% just isn't satisfying for me''

Funny. I was only saying the other day at work that 1.30% was my absolute upper limit these days . Water has a huge part in it tho.

1.30 with our calcium rich roastery water is chewy thick syrupy.


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## jeebsy

1.4 is about as high as I go. Can't imagine a 1.7 being nice.


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## jeebsy

Yield:

http://baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-measuring-yield/


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## jlarkin

jeebsy said:


> Yield:
> 
> http://baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-measuring-yield/


I'll never yield...


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## christos_geo

Old thread resurrection, I know, but is puzzling me and I'm sure one of you guys had the answer.

Just for ease let's just say we are brewing using v60.

Using a standard ratio of 1:16.6 (13.5g dry dose with 226g water) we hit a hypothetical tds of 1.30 and EY of 20% at the set grind setting. Let's say this brew tasted great.

What happens to flavour if we coarsen grind but increase brew time or grind finer and reduce brew time but making sure that in both instances we hit exactly the same tds and EY values? (Ratio, water temp, number of pulse pours, equipment has otherwise all remained constant).

Can we expect to get different flavour depth, mouth feel from the different brews? Will it be slight or will it produce a completely different tasting brew, or will all the news taste indistinguishable?

I understand this may not be entirely possible to perform as there is only so much you can affect contact time with a pour over and perhaps it could be better replicated using immersion method.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

christos_geo said:


> Old thread resurrection, I know, but is puzzling me and I'm sure one of you guys had the answer.
> 
> Just for ease let's just say we are brewing using v60.
> 
> Using a standard ratio of 1:16.6 (13.5g dry dose with 226g water) we hit a hypothetical tds of 1.30 and EY of 20% at the set grind setting. Let's say this brew tasted great.
> 
> What happens to flavour if we coarsen grind but increase brew time or grind finer and reduce brew time but making sure that in both instances we hit exactly the same tds and EY values? (Ratio, water temp, number of pulse pours, equipment has otherwise all remained constant).
> 
> Can we expect to get different flavour depth, mouth feel from the different brews? Will it be slight or will it produce a completely different tasting brew, or will all the news taste indistinguishable?
> 
> I understand this may not be entirely possible to perform as there is only so much you can affect contact time with a pour over and perhaps it could be better replicated using immersion method.


Easier to think about an immersion brew for the reasons you describe. Generally speaking, changing the grind will always affect tds if all else remains the same. Changing the time or water temp would also affect tds. Whether you're using the grind or changing, time, heat or whatever - you're just using different tools/methods to draw the coffee into your water - tds is just an expression of how much coffee is in the water.

Dose and grind size are more important in pourover as they both affect the amount of time that the water is in contact with the coffee - obviously not the case in an immersion brew.

So, in answer to your question. I would expect brews with same EY% and same tds to always taste exactly the same, regardless of how it was achieved. 'Body' or mouthfeel comes from strength i.e. Tds, EY% is about the nature of what you extracted - different flavours will be evident at different EY% but not necessarily related to the number eg a 20% EY% may well taste better than a 22% brew.


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## Step21

Need to keep the brew water the same. Brews with the same EY/TDS can taste quite different if you use another water.


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## MWJB

christos_geo said:


> Old thread resurrection, I know, but is puzzling me and I'm sure one of you guys had the answer.
> 
> Just for ease let's just say we are brewing using v60.
> 
> Using a standard ratio of 1:16.6 (13.5g dry dose with 226g water) we hit a hypothetical tds of 1.30 and EY of 20% at the set grind setting. Let's say this brew tasted great.
> 
> What happens to flavour if we coarsen grind but increase brew time or grind finer and reduce brew time but making sure that in both instances we hit exactly the same tds and EY values? (Ratio, water temp, number of pulse pours, equipment has otherwise all remained constant).
> 
> Can we expect to get different flavour depth, mouth feel from the different brews? Will it be slight or will it produce a completely different tasting brew, or will all the news taste indistinguishable?
> 
> I understand this may not be entirely possible to perform as there is only so much you can affect contact time with a pour over and perhaps it could be better replicated using immersion method.


If you ground finer, you would usually extract more, unless you poured faster/in fewer & larger pulses. If you ground coarser, there is only so far coarser you can go before extraction would drop...unless you ended up with dead time, with no water visible above the bed, but drips still coming from the brewer. For the same grinder, this is not likely to greatly change the flavour if you can keep the extraction even. I brew a few methods with the same ratio & after blooming, a single pour for Brewista Smart Steep (finer grind), 3-4 pours for Kalita Wave, 6 pours for V60, 8 pours for Kalita Uno (last 3 at the same grind) and they all hit a representative flavour...I guess you could reduce mouthfeel by going just coarse enough to hit your EY, with as many pours as possible, as you'd have less particles under a given size...just depends whether more agitation from the extra pours redressed the balance.

Changing the ratio a little, or changing the brewer & liquid retained will change the TDS a little for the same 20% EY. E.g. a flat bottomed brewer like a Kalita Wave will hold back more liquid than a big, coarse Chemex brew, therefore at 20% the Wave brew will be stronger.

I don't make any efforts to change water temp, so can't answer that.

Expecting all the 20% brews to be indistinguishable is perhaps a stretch, I'd expect them to be 20%, but still allow a little variance in taste.


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## christos_geo

Thank you all for your speedy replies! @foundrycoffeeroasters.com thank you, that is what I wanted to get to the bottom of! I wanted to know, as with v60 for example, for the past year I have tried sticking to 25g 30sec bloom and stir and then 25g pulses every 15 sec with exactly the same ratio (1:16.6). Then depending on taste and time adjusting grind in order to get it sweeter and within the 02:45 - 03:15 time frame. Can't deal with changing more than one variable at a time as I find it impossible to recreate a brew or a shot by doing that. It was just that lingering feeling of what would the brew taste like at the exact same tds and EY but with a following a different way of getting there (keeping everything the same including brew method, water, temp, pour, stir etc.. except for grind and contact time). @Step21 thanks, that was also one of my queries, I have always used WE or Volvic but not tried a side by side comparison. I did however buy more Volvic yesterday to try out the 50:50 mix suggested by @MWJB. My question on that however is does the water actually alter the rate of extraction or the capacity of extraction? So again say you have an identical v60 brew keeping absolutely everything the same with the exception of the water. I aim to hit a TDS of 1.30 and 20% EY with tap water, filter water, WE or Volvic. Again perhaps this is impossible potentially due to the potential of each water in extracting solubles from the coffee but will the brews taste the same? Doing a water blind taste I could actually smell the difference between these waters before even bringing to my mouth (obviously not WE vs Volvic) so they should taste different, but do we use Volvic or WE or the 50:50 mix because for the given parameters we can push extraction a touch higher or because the flavour balance at the same TDS and EY is more enjoyable?

And @MWJB thanks again for answering my questions again, and perhaps you can explain the water part even though I've tried my best to read through all previous water posts but inevitably get lost in the abyss of variables. But yes you are right about inevitably ending up with dead time. Was playing round yesterday trying to test my question but with the coarse grind the flow through was way too fast ending in just a sour brew. Obviously I went a bit too extreme with my adjustment and LSOL beans were too valuable to keep mucking about. Thankfully 1kg of Rocko should do the trick. As for temp, I only ever found one Kenyan coffee, which to me seemed surprisingly soluble, to need a cooler temp as it would overextract no matter how coarse I went (within reason to get brew time at above 2:00) and even reducing total pours to 2. Otherwise I go off the boil for the bloom and then use the gooseneck at its declining temp for the subsequent 8 or so pours.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

MWJB said:


> Expecting all the 20% brews to be indistinguishable is perhaps a stretch, I'd expect them to be 20%, but still allow a little variance in taste.


The post was suggesting that strength as well as EY% would both be the same, just arrived at differently. I would expect those to be difficult to distinguish from each other but would be interested to hear other views.

Having said that, neither tds or EY% is indicative of an even extraction so I guess even within those fixed strength and extraction values, you could have brews that are 'better' i.e. probably more even - than others. At this point the subjective view of the taster will be very much in play and there's nothing to say that a more even brew is always 'better'.

It's off topic a bit but the main thing I came out with as a result of playing with sieves (looking at the general idea that more uniform particles would extract more evenly) was that what I enjoy in coffee is actually a mixture of under, over and well extracted coffee. On balance I made very few brews that I considered 'better' than brews made from unsieved grinds.


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## MWJB

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> It's off topic a bit but the main thing I came out with as a result of playing with sieves (looking at the general idea that more uniform particles would extract more evenly) was that what I enjoy in coffee is actually a mixture of under, over and well extracted coffee. On balance I made very few brews that I considered 'better' than brews made from unsieved grinds.


If it's well extracted, it's not over, nor under extracted. I understand that some particles may extract more than others, but I'd be keen to see any study on this?

Unless you know how extracted any given size range is how can you determine wht needs to be removed to improve things? What did you remove from the brews after sieving, I can make immersion brews cleaner by sieving out the small end, but it doesn't seem to extract differently in total?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

MWJB said:


> If it's well extracted, it's not over, nor under extracted. I understand that some particles may extract more than others, but I'd be keen to see any study on this?
> 
> Unless you know how extracted any given size range is how can you determine wht needs to be removed to improve things? What did you remove from the brews after sieving, I can make immersion brews cleaner by sieving out the small end, but it doesn't seem to extract differently in total?


There is no evidence as far as I'm aware for any of what I've said and I agree there is very little we can meaningfully ascertain about what is happening in any particular brew. They're just my impressions after a bit of playing around.

My main point is that unevenness, fines, boulders, whatever all have an impact on a brew, some will impact negatively on taste, some positively. The brew is also made of non-homogenous coffee beans so solubility even from brew to brew won't be completely uniform - but who knows, maybe those sorts of natural variations don't have a significant impact as far as taste and appreciation of the drink goes.

From making brews in the cafe, we see these variations in flavour even when we are going to a lot of effort to control whatever we can and even when the numbers tell us everything should be the same. It's a very interesting area which would be so interesting to look at in more depth and with a more rigorous method. That's tough when you're factoring in sensory fatigue, ambient environment changes etc.


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## MWJB

christos_geo said:


> I did however buy more Volvic yesterday to try out the 50:50 mix suggested by @MWJB. My question on that however is does the water actually alter the rate of extraction or the capacity of extraction? So again say you have an identical v60 brew keeping absolutely everything the same with the exception of the water. I aim to hit a TDS of 1.30 and 20% EY with tap water, filter water, WE or Volvic. Again perhaps this is impossible potentially due to the potential of each water in extracting solubles from the coffee but will the brews taste the same? Doing a water blind taste I could actually smell the difference between these waters before even bringing to my mouth (obviously not WE vs Volvic) so they should taste different, but do we use Volvic or WE or the 50:50 mix because for the given parameters we can push extraction a touch higher or because the flavour balance at the same TDS and EY is more enjoyable?
> 
> And @MWJB thanks again for answering my questions again, and perhaps you can explain the water part even though I've tried my best to read through all previous water posts but inevitably get lost in the abyss of variables.


Using Volvic, Volvic & WE, or WE alone won't change extraction % (the amount of solids dissolved) in a drip brew, it will change the flavour though. EY potential vs preference is more related to grind distribution/extraction evenness.


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## MWJB

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> The brew is also made of non-homogenous coffee beans so solubility even from brew to brew won't be completely uniform - but who knows, maybe those sorts of natural variations don't have a significant impact as far as taste and appreciation of the drink goes. .


From logging my brews the standard deviation of various aspects seems to go like this:

Min 10 brews, different coffee for each, no changes between brews.

Dose - zero variance

Brew water - maybe 0.5%

Bev output for drip - around 1%

Extraction yield is next at 3-5%

Time 4-8%

My totally subjective preference scores (9 point quartermasters scale) are more like 9-14%

Brew time is larger than EY, but can be more/less than preference depending on how long the average brew takes for that brewer and the sdev in brew time, e.g. a 3min average V60 might have an sdev of 10seconds (less than preference), but a 5min average Brewista brew might have a time sdev of 1 minute (more than preference proportionally).

So, completely uniform solubility, to the %EY? No.

But +/- 0.9%EY across different coffees for the same method & recipe is realistic, half that for 10 brews with the same coffee, method & recipe.


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## MWJB

This might be easier to digest than all my jibber-jabber, the Aeropress recipe has a bigger variance in bev. weight, being a sort of drip/immersion hybrid, but the others are more straightforward...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18d9L9J_4YeHHiz8257JZ-2-W-CJaaAqYRCP-YOs4650/edit?usp=sharing


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