# BWT water jug for reducing hardness



## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

Hi All

First post from a long time forum browser!

I've struggled to find a definitive answer to this question:

Will a BWT filter jug (or other brand) reduce the hardness of London water enough for a HX espresso machine?

Currently using Ashbeck and getting sick of the waste. Plumbing a heavy duty in-line filter isn't an option.

Thank you in advance for any help.


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

I've used a Brita jug filter in the past for general use and boiling the kettle, but still noticed scale build up in the kettle. I wouldn't use this for coffee machines, I live in Ilford Essex where the water is considered hard.


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## caffn8me (Feb 19, 2019)

DayZer0 said:


> Hi All
> 
> First post from a long time forum browser!
> 
> ...


Apparently Ashbeck water has a CaCO3 content of about 11mg per litre. Ilford water is at 207-300mg per litre [pdf] and London water varies. You can check it here. Where I am in Wombledon it's about 249mg per litre.

You could contact BWT directly and ask what the end calcium carbonate content would be for water with the hardness where you are. They may very well be able to give you an answer and you can compare it to the 11mg per litre figure.

The other option is to try it with a water hardness test kit such as the  Calmag one. The kit costs less than £4 from Toolstation.


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thank you for the replies

I'm only up the road in SW12 and the link suggests a machine killing 251mg.

Sounds like I need to run a test. A bit more research suggests I need to test for Carbonate hardness specifically (KH?) as the filters just replace with other ions and won't necessarily affect total hardness (GH?)

Is it correct to say that the undersink/inline systems are unquestionably more effective? Do they actually filter better, or is it a convenience thing? The Brita/BWT websites say everything 'reduces' limescale without being much help!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DayZer0 said:


> Thank you for the replies
> 
> I'm only up the road in SW12 and the link suggests a machine killing 251mg.
> 
> ...


Have you read about / heard of / seen the Osmio?

https://www.osmiowater.co.uk/zip-portable-reverse-osmosis-system.html

Has been reviewed by DavecUK of this forum in a very detailed manner. This might be what you are looking for.


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## RobW (Dec 24, 2017)

I am in Oxford which is also hard at 255. I did some testing on filters:

Tap water 14 GH 9 KH

Brita Maxtra+ 3 GH 2 KH

BWT 8 GH 5 KH

Zero 2 GH 1 KH

Keep in mind that the BWT replaces calcium with magnesium and they maintain that this will not scale as much


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

RobW said:


> I am in Oxford which is also hard at 255. I did some testing on filters:
> 
> Tap water 14 GH 9 KH
> 
> ...


Thank you for this

Sounds like the Maxtra+ makes a big difference. Would you use it the machine without worrying? Would that performance as measured deteriorate rapidly? (I dont want to replace bottled water with filter-life paranoia!)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

RobW said:


> .
> 
> Keep in mind that the BWT replaces calcium with magnesium and they maintain that this will not scale as much


Is that stated some where. I gained the impression a long time ago that calcium is usually replaced with sodium. There are various posts on the web at times concerning people regenerating some coffee machine filters with salt.

John

-


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Is that stated some where. I gained the impression a long time ago that calcium is usually replaced with sodium. There are various posts on the web at times concerning people regenerating some coffee machine filters with salt.
> 
> John
> 
> -


They state it on their website


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DayZer0 said:


> Thank you for this
> 
> Sounds like the Maxtra+ makes a big difference. Would you use it the machine without worrying? Would that performance as measured deteriorate rapidly? (I dont want to replace bottled water with filter-life paranoia!)


It's been discussed here that the lifespan / effectiveness of a Britta filter when used with hard water is about 2 weeks.


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's been discussed here that the lifespan / effectiveness of a Britta filter when used with hard water is about 2 weeks.


Is that time based deterioration or volume of water used?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DayZer0 said:


> Is that time based deterioration or volume of water used?


I'll need to re-search the thread again as I honestly don't remember. You can do the same.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

In London with a brita/bwt you'd still need to descale the machine fairly regularly.

if you want to go jug based then I'd suggest getting a zerowater jug and using it to dilute filtered bwt (if you use a filter jug for drinking) or tap. (You'll need to experiment; for my water 6 parts zerowater 1 part bwt is a good level)

You won't want to use zerowater for everyday drinking as it's: a) super expensive and b) not very tasty

And the Brita/Bwt lifespan is driven largely by volume: the 4 week change that the companies suggest is an EU directive relating to bacteria build up. The wear down is gradual and if you notice a massive change in taste when swapping filters you've probably let it go too far.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd be inclined to get one of these if we had hard water

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/espresso-machine-water-softener-8l-4254-p.asp

It's possible to mix what goes in with what's coming out automatically to achieve different hardness levels which I think for coffee is over 80ppm but some suggest 40.

John

-


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

Power Freak said:


> In London with a brita/bwt you'd still need to descale the machine fairly regularly.
> 
> if you want to go jug based then I'd suggest getting a zerowater jug and using it to dilute filtered bwt (if you use a filter jug for drinking) or tap. (You'll need to experiment; for my water 6 parts zerowater 1 part bwt is a good level)
> 
> ...


Interesting approach. I looked up zerowater and the pitcher/filters didn't seem overly expensive. I don't use a filter for drinking water currently so I assume I could do a cocktail of tap and Zerowater to get something passable that wouldn't scale the machine too quickly?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DayZer0 said:


> Interesting approach. I looked up zerowater and the pitcher/filters didn't seem overly expensive. I don't use a filter for drinking water currently so I assume I could do a cocktail of tap and Zerowater to get something passable that wouldn't scale the machine too quickly?


You can.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

DayZer0 said:


> Interesting approach. I looked up zerowater and the pitcher/filters didn't seem overly expensive. I don't use a filter for drinking water currently so I assume I could do a cocktail of tap and Zerowater to get something passable that wouldn't scale the machine too quickly?


The zerowater filters cost add up as you wear through them more quickly than a brita style if you're using it in high volumes (drinking water) - for just producing coffee water it doesn't work out too expensive. You can see the life in:

https://www.zerowater.com/images/tds-chart.png

My tap water is in the "exceptionally high" bracket and I get about 10 US gallons (30-40L) per filter roughly.

And for scaling tap water and brita as a mixer will be essentially the same (you'd just dilute the tap more to account for the hardness) - it's just if you have a jug for drinking you may as well use it for the cocktail.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

I need some form of this

My coffee machine tank gets filled with white stuff after only two uses. This includes using both Asda and Tesco water.

I live just inside North Wales.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

thesmileyone said:


> I need some form of this
> 
> My coffee machine tank gets filled with white stuff after only two uses. This includes using both Asda and Tesco water.
> 
> I live just inside North Wales.


Which Asda & Tesco water?


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

A zero water filter is about £20. Assuming it lasts 50L and I mix 5:1 with tap. That's 33p a litre compared to Ashbeck at 22p a litre. I think I could live with that to save on plastic waste.

the economics are even closer if I get a good deal on filters or I get more than 50L from each.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Which Asda & Tesco water?


https://groceries.asda.com/product/still-water/asda-smart-price-still-spring-water/910003126902

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/301456121


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

thesmileyone said:


> https://groceries.asda.com/product/still-water/asda-smart-price-still-spring-water/910003126902
> 
> https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/301456121


Man... you need to use Ashbeck from Tesco. Read the label and you'll understand why.

The water you use is very hard!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

thesmileyone said:


> https://groceries.asda.com/product/still-water/asda-smart-price-still-spring-water/910003126902
> 
> https://www.tesco.com/groceries/en-GB/products/301456121


These are probably the same water, likely from Chase Spring. It's normal, hard British water, there is unlikely any benefit to using this over what comes out of taps in hard water areas.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

DayZer0 said:


> Thank you for the replies
> 
> I'm only up the road in SW12 and the link suggests a machine killing 251mg.
> 
> ...


Yes, the (right) undersink systems are unquestionably more effective. Cambridge water is very hard (~400GH) and the Brita Purity Quell ST reduces this to a non scaling level.


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## All_a_Mort (Jan 28, 2019)

How does the Brita under sink option compare to BWT's Bestmax one?


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

I don't know, but I imagine they're pretty much the same. They all (these, 3M scaleguard and others) work by replacing calcium, magnesium and heavier metal ions with hydrogen ions, thus reducing GH and KH by equal measure. I use the Brita ones as they're plentiful and cheap on that well known auction site. The Bestmax premium filters are a bit different, as they replace calcium and heavier cations with a mix of hydrogen and magnesium ones.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

I also have Thames Water's finest (Twickenham) and it's superhard. I use a plumbed in bestmax premium for the coffee machine but a Britta Jug for the kettle. The kettle develops a very fine layer of scale, enough for me to descale every 6 months or so, just to get back to the super-shiny stainless interior.

We frequently don't get around to changing the filter when instructed and it doesn't cause instant stalactites.

I doubt it will kill a coffee machine if you descale a couple of times a year,

I can't comment on the taste for coffee but it makes decent tea!


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thanks.

Even on soft bottled water (Ashbeck specifically), should I still be descaling at least once per year?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DayZer0 said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Even on soft bottled water (Ashbeck specifically), should I still be descaling at least once per year?


I doubt it would be necessary, corrosion might be more likely.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

According to the bottle spec an approximate LI equation suggests you will never need to descale using Ashbeck.

But keep in mind:

- It's an approximation so not always 100% accurate in all situations

- The water spec can change and doesn't always match the label

Corrosion doesn't look too likely with ashbeck either, pretty low chlorides and not a super low pH.

As a bottled water it's one of the best "set and forget" waters out there.


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

Thank you all for your advice on this.

I thought it might be helpful to summarize the conclusions (from a hard tap water perspective)

*Tap water* - 'Free' but machine killing

*Ashbeck* - Machine safe, tastes ok, cheap ~£50pa, but added shopping hassle and plastic waste

*Brita/BWT jugs* - Cheap ~£50pa, also good for drinking. But although better than tap, fundamentally doesn't soften London water enough to protect machine

*Zero water* *jugs* - Soft enough output to protect machine. Can/Should add minerals to make 'perfect' water (e.g. Third wave). Cost OK, estimated at ~£50 to 100pa. But using filter and then mixing minerals is additional hassle. Filter replacements are expensive. Reviews say filters can smell towards end of life.

*RO (e.g. Osmio Zero) - *Appealing plug and go solution which can also double as drinking fountain and kettle. But expensive (£400 up front plus, say £50pa for filters). Don't really have enough kitchen space for another appliance (probably more of an issue than cost tbh)

*Undersink* - Seamless integrated solution with ideal water. But installation for me including a new tap and plumbing labour could be £500, plus £100pa for a new filter

And the winner is&#8230; Ashbeck

My conclusion is simply to stick to Ashbeck for the time being due to cost and convenience. I will definitely move to undersink next time I need to move house or remodel a kitchen - as a stand-alone project I can't justify.

Don't get me wrong, I really do hate the feeling of plastic waste, but you don't get totally away from that with Zero water or even Osmio Zero (think of the raw materials going into making it and each new filter&#8230


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You can remineralise Zero water by mixing with tapwater. Not much hassle.


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

MWJB said:


> You can remineralise Zero water by mixing with tapwater. Not much hassle.


Fair point.

A starter kit is so cheap that I'll probably give it a go out of curiosity. I can then make better judgement on hassle and filter life.


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