# Running out of ideas



## karucifer (Jan 5, 2011)

Hi All,

Need some advice on technique (and maybe tools) to fix my 9 month run of 'variable' espresso.

Bought a gaggia classic after christmas, after much experimentation I've also acquired:


A non-pressurised double-shot basket

A bottomless portafilter

An iberital MC2

A proper tamper


Based on my current grind, it takes ~21g of beans (James Gourmet Formula 6) to fill the basket after a firm tamp (I'll admit I'm finding the 30lb sweet spot tricky to hit). Using the naked portafilter I can see that even with the slower extraction, I'm clearly getting channelling.

My shots are more bitter than I'd hope, though I'm not sure what to tweak to begin working this out.

So I'm wondering

Is the extraction time the period after liquid first leaves the portafilter? Or from once the pump is engaged?

Is 21g a lot for a double? It's ~25% more than the 16g I read others are using elsewhere.

Is the volume of beans that fit into the basket before grinding a good guideline for the ground weight I should expect to be using?

I'm faced with two obvious variables I can alter, grind size and tamp pressure and who knows what else - can anyone give me some guidance? I'd really appreciate it.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Distribution is absolutely key to prevent channeling, I find the tamp pressure less important (ok it needs to be straight obviously)

Could you post a video of technique? particularly filling the portafilter with grinds.

Your grind might be too fine (with you grinding tighter and tighter to prevent channeling mis-interpretted as quick blonding) difficult to guess without seeing your process etc.

21g sounds like a lot for a double basket, I get about 18-19, any less I get a sloppy puck (ok I havent got a gaggia anymore but basket is same size)


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Extraction Time... depends who you speak to, but in general you should aim for 25-30 seconds from pressing the brew button.

Dose weight... go down from 21g to 17.5 or 18g. Don't fill the basket. The grinds need room to expand when water hits them. Different dosages result in different flavours too.

When you reduce dosage you will have to grind finer to maintain the appropriate water resistance in the basket to avoid a gusher.

Sweetness... stop the shot earlier. 25-30 seconds is a goal, but if you're getting channelling, or if your grinder burrs perhaps aren't as sharp as they could be, or other weaknesses in technique, then you'll get early blonding, which is a sign that the grinds have overextracted (compared with their optimal extraction), at least in part of the basket. Overextracted coffee has more bitterness. By stopping the shot earlier you will get a different tasting shot. OK, you'll get less than 2oz, but that's normal. Don't aim for 2oz. Aim for the best shot you can get.

Google "Weiss Distribution Technique"

Google "Stockfleth movement"

Good luck!


----------



## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

Dose:

21g isn't out of the range of plausible dose, but it is the top end. Dose can be anything from 14 - 22g for a double, depending upon the coffee, the basket, etc.

Time:

Extraction time should be measured from when the pump is started. Expect to see liquid appearing at about 6 - 8 seconds ish, with a total shot time of 20 - 35 seconds depending upon the coffee (again!







)

Causes of bitterness/lack of sweetness:

The two most common causes are over-extraction (either channeling or pulling the shot too long), or taking too long for the extraction.

As a guessed starting point, I'd try dropping your dose a little (18gish?) then adjust grind size for a 22 - 25 (approx.) extraction time (from pump start to blonding). If you find this lacks punch for your taste, tighten up the grind for a slightly longer extraction.


----------



## PaulN (Mar 10, 2011)

Bet the bottomless is a triple basket. I use 22.5g to fill it and 17g for my double.


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Also, if you're not sure about 30lb of pressure you could consider getting one of these:

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/Espro-Automatic-Hand-Tamper.html


----------



## karucifer (Jan 5, 2011)

I went down to 19g testing last night and this morning, best I could manage was 17 seconds (and espresso left the filter almost immediately, no delay like I see at 21g). Trying the Weiss Technique, need to find a suitable container to modify.

With regards the basket, I'm pretty sure it's a double, my bottomless portafilter came with a triple and it's much much bigger.

I looked at the Espro but I heard mixed things about dynamometric tampers, it was when I found myself looking at the Macap Auto Tamper (http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hd0785-macap-auto-tamper.html) that I realised I should probably be trying to tackle this differently.

Does anyone know what the volume of a double basket is? If I provide a photo will that be adequate?


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

If it helps... here's a standard double (right) and a VST 18g (left)










I think you probably do have a standard double. I can get 22g, sometimes 23g in it.

When you say 17 seconds, 17 seconds to do what? Fill a 2oz glass? If you're not getting the required resistance in the basket it does sound like perhaps you're not grinding fine enough - but there could be other causes. For example, if you tap the side of the basket when tamping, don't.

WDT - you don't need the yoghurt pot. Just stir the grinds in the basket with a paperclip or something like that.

A video would do wonders right now


----------



## PaulN (Mar 10, 2011)

Thats impressive if you guys can get 22g in a double basket... Saying that ive found with my new beans i do need to set a little finer.


----------



## karucifer (Jan 5, 2011)

Out of curiosity, are there such things as genuine gaggia baskets? Is it possible to buy a genuine gaggia double? I'm not doubting the one I have (much) but afaik it's a generic.


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

The basket is a red herring. I don't think the problems you're having are related to it.


----------



## karucifer (Jan 5, 2011)

This is the double I bought:

http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hd0183-gaggia-double-filter-basket.html


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Same as mine.


----------



## Mazza (Aug 11, 2010)

karucifer said:


> This is the double I bought:
> 
> http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hd0183-gaggia-double-filter-basket.html


I've got that basket but I don't know how you get 22g in unless you re-fill the basket after tamping.

You need to only change one variable to get the shot you want. I'd measure 17g and stick to that adjusting the coarseness of the grind to give the required shot. While trying to get it right don't change beans either as that is another variable !


----------



## PaulN (Mar 10, 2011)

Mazza said:


> I've got that basket but I don't know how you get 22g in unless you re-fill the basket after tamping.
> 
> You need to only change one variable to get the shot you want. I'd measure 17g and stick to that adjusting the coarseness of the grind to give the required shot. While trying to get it right don't change beans either as that is another variable !





PaulN said:


> Thats impressive if you guys can get 22g in a double basket... Saying that ive found with my new beans i do need to set a little finer.


Agreed I was going to say about a mid way tamp but thought it was a filthy thing to say with the elite here lol

My 17g is just over the top before Tamping.


----------

