# Bitter Shot - MC2 & Gaggia Classic



## Ferdy

Hi Guys

After some banter on the forum, I managed to pull enough funds together to get myself an MC2.

So far I'm happy but I'm getting some rather inconsistent results.

Here's my process so far.

Grind fresh roast from MC2 - 8g in 8 secs (weighed) - X 2 for a double (sorry missed this)

Pulling 2 ounce shot in 28 seconds using the Gaggia Classic double basket.

The shot pictured came out perfect but this morning it was quite bitter and the flow rate of the coffee was much slower. Could anyone of provide any feedback on my technique please?

Are there some better timings for my grind and extraction that I should be working to?

Cheers Ferd


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## froggystyle

Are you only dosing 8g into your basket?


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## Ferdy

No - I'm dosing it twice. That way the wife can have a single if she wants.


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## froggystyle

So you putting 16g into the double?


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## Ferdy

Yeah - much more than that and it fouls the top of the head.


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## froggystyle

Same bean?

Do you have the hopper full of beans or single dosing into the hopper?

Changed the grind at all?


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## Mrboots2u

Are you doing any form of temp surfing. When are you hitting the button to start the shot....


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## froggystyle

Also you tray looks very wet?


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## Mrboots2u

Bitter equals temp too high

Or grind to fine or too much coffee being used. Or a combination of all three......


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## Ferdy

Ah that could be it. I grind is the same and it's a double dose.

I did wonder when I pre ran the machine and some steam came out. That's why the tray got messed up.

Is there a way I can regulate the temperature?


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## froggystyle

Are you steaming then trying to pull a shot straight away?


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## Ferdy

Na - I don't use the steamer. Just leave it about 4-6 mins warming up while I grind, tamp etc...


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## froggystyle

Try giving it 30 minutes.

Are you leaving the PF in when heating?

Are you leaving the PF in when purging?


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## Ferdy

I don't normally leave it that long tbh. I take it the boiler will just tick over during that time.

I leave the pf in while purging to warm up but not while warning.

30


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## froggystyle

You need the water, pipes, group head, cups on top and PF to heat up fully, this takes time.

The boiler will cycle, but whilst its doing this it will heat everything else.

Leave the PF in over this period and then purge for a few seconds, then pop out the PF, wipe clean and dose, back in and your boiler should be ready to pour shot.


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## Ferdy

I'll give that a try tonight.

Many thanks Froggy. Much appreciated.

Will let you know how I get on.


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## froggystyle

Not sure if that is related to your bitter shot, but give it a go and see, if its still bitter then you have took the machine out the fault finding.

Then you can look at other areas.


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## El carajillo

Have you cleaned the group head lately ? after a while coffee oils build up and can also give a bitter taste. During the warm up only lock the P/F in loosely, not as when brewing.


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## Ferdy

I always give it a wipe down but I'll drop it and give it a good clean tonight too


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## froggystyle

Do you ever weigh your shots out?


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## Mrboots2u

froggystyle said:


> Do you ever weigh your shots out?


Oh come on.....


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## froggystyle

Just wondering what he gets out...


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## Ferdy

Shot weight was 46g. Tastes much better this time.

Was choking the machine a little at the start but poured much better. None of the bitter taste at all.

Group head was a little dirty so cleaned all that out too.

Think it is time for a new tamper as it's a not really wide enough. Looking at a HD 58mm if that's any good?

Thanks for your help guys.


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## froggystyle

Yep you want a 58mm if using the double, i got a convexed from them, does me just right, other will say spend big, your choice.

46g is a big output, but if it tastes good then go with it.

What bean is it, looks dark?


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## Ferdy

Its an Italian roast from HD. It's often much lighter than that.

Initial extraction was over 5 seconds so I think I'm tamping a little too hard with that crap thing.

Tasted bloody good, especially when it was a little cooler. Impressed, it's a long from Lava.... Haha


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## froggystyle

I think, i may be wrong, HD bean are not as fresh as you think.

Switch your supplier to someone else, have a crack at Raves italian blend.


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## xiuxiuejar

Try warming your Gaggia up a minimum of 20 minutes. Make sure everything is warm and dry (cups, portafilter). Then once you have coffee in the portafilter, flush a few seconds of water out of the boiler. Place the portafilter into the head and as soon as the light flicks on pour your coffee. The next time you order beans, order from Rave or Has Bean or one of those roasters as the coffee will be much fresher and roasted to order more or less.

Most "problems" with the Gaggia are from incorrect temperature (or bad coffee) in my experience. I used to go through this process all the time and achieved very good results.


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## seeq

Ferdy said:


> Its an Italian roast from HD. It's often much lighter than that.
> 
> Initial extraction was over 5 seconds so I think I'm tamping a little too hard with that crap thing.
> 
> Tasted bloody good, especially when it was a little cooler. Impressed, it's a long from Lava.... Haha


When you say the initial extraction is 5 seconds. Do you mean 5 seconds before anything comes out? As that's probably about right.

If you find 46g out from 16g in to your taste then that's fine. However if you still find that bitter then grind a bit finer and reduce the output as that will reduce bitterness.

When you say about cleaning it, do you mean just a scrub, or are you using something like puly caff, soaking the PF in it and back flushing? First time I cleaned my classic properly I couldn't believe the difference it made to the taste. A simple scrub with water won't get rid of the coffee oils that leave a bitter taste

The photo of your puck afterwards doesn't look particularly firm, that could be down to your tamper and getting one the right size is essential.

And lastly as others have suggested, ensure you have fresh beans. If you like the lighter roasts then hasbean are a good choice and there will be plenty of other reviews in the beans section.


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## Burnzy

Yeah im a bit of a noob, but i would say that output is way too much which is where the bitterness would be coming from!! Even 2 fluid oz from 16g of beans in is too much..

I would say from 16g in, you want around 26g out... I do 18 in 28 out in 27-28 seconds. If im under shots can taste sour, if im over shots can taste bitter...

id work on your extraction weights and try another bean maybe.

Ive realised its all about the ratios, what goes in and what comes out in said time (aslong as your beans are good though)

good luck


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## hotmetal

I've got a classic and MC2 as well. Happy donkey classic Italian is quite dark and might well be too bitter if you go all the way to 46g. Try stopping at 25-30g, or at least before it starts to blond, as some of the bitterness comes at the end.

Also as others have said it's possibly not quite as freshly roasted as some, I think it can be up to around 2 weeks after roast depending on when you order. I actually quite like it though! Very low acidity. ..


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## urbanbumpkin

Ferdy said:


> Shot weight was 46g. Tastes much better this time.
> 
> Was choking the machine a little at the start but poured much better. None of the bitter taste at all.
> 
> Group head was a little dirty so cleaned all that out too.
> 
> Think it is time for a new tamper as it's a not really wide enough. Looking at a HD 58mm if that's any good?
> 
> Thanks for your help guys.


If you're after 58mm tamper, I'd look a Motta one from Creamsupplies , they're about £14-£15 posted from memory. I'd rate the Motta one over the HD one.

Also agree with going fine on the grind and aim for the shot to weigh approx 26-28g from a 16g dose in 25-30 secs and see if that tastes less bitter.


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## jeebsy

When you say it chocked the machine at first, how long did it take to start flowing?


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## Ferdy

Pretty sure it was a little over 5 seconds. Ill get the scales under the cup tonight and video the shot. Hopefully that might be a better way of telling where I'm going wrong.

Didn't get a chance to make one this morning, need to get a few more bags of coffee so I can grind for my AeroPress at work









I'll order a new tamper today too.


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## jeebsy

First drops don't tend to appear for 7-10 seconds normally so that's not choking


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## Ferdy

Ahhh OK. I thought that was a little too slow. It's probably about 8 ish


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## froggystyle

Choking is when your not getting any drops for a loong time, 20 seconds plus, then it will just dribble out.

Be interesting to see your video.


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## froggystyle

Also, can see why your pulling longer shots, getting two decent shots out for you and wifey at the same time.

Problem is taste is sacrificed, however if you do back to back shots then your also gonna suffer on the second shot unless you wait a good 5 minutes between shots.

Oh the joy of the classic!


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## Ferdy

That shot is only for me but yeah I normally pull them back to back. Luckily it's never ladies first when it comes to coffee☺


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## Ferdy

urbanbumpkin said:


> If you're after 58mm tamper, I'd look a Motta one from Creamsupplies , they're about £14-£15 posted from memory. I'd rate the Motta one over the HD one.


Ordered







Thanks for the help!


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## seeq

Nice one Ferdy, I use that one and I have no complaints at all (other than the varnish peeling). For the price it's an excellent tamper.


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## Ferdy

Just poured a 29g shot and it was bloody perfect. Lovely blend of strength and smoothness, exactly what I want from an espresso.

Waited 30 mins warm up. Poured a blank shot then waited till just after the light came back on.

Here are some pics. I did rubbish video but the wife was talking trash so I need to remove the audio. Will post it up tomorrow.

Thanks again to everyone for all their help and advice, what a great community this forum is.










Had a little sip thus the crema is up the sides of the cup.


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## seeq

That shot and puck looks like a massive improvement, but most importantly if you find the taste bang on then you're there.

For reference 1:2 shot is a 'standard' espresso. So from 16g, 32g out. What you are pouring is slightly ristretto. A higher ratio will be more bitter a lower ratio will be more acidic. There is no right and wrong. It's all about personal preference.

Very glad you have got it sorted, nothing like a shot done to your personal taste! Well done.


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## froggystyle

Great news Ferdy!


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## urbanbumpkin

Excellent stuff, it's great when it all comes together.

I had a quick look on the creamsupplies website, they do the Motta tamp in a curve too for the same price as a flat. Not sure which to recommend with an MC2 ... Flat or curve? Anyone?


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## froggystyle

I think the convexed is recommend for double/triple baskets on the classic?


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## froggystyle

That is, where the basket has no internal ridges...


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## Ferdy

Nice one. Great news for me as I've ordered the convex tamper ☺


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## Charliej

froggystyle said:


> That is, where the basket has no internal ridges...


The ridges on a basket are simply to keep it in the portafilter, nothing to do with whether it's a double or triple, and my convex tampers work fine in both ridged and ridgeless baskets.


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## xiuxiuejar

Congratulations! The secret of the Classic is to find a technique that works and stick to it. Warming the machine and flushing water through are essential. You basically repeated what used to be my technique with the Classic and I was always very happy with the coffee it produced. There's no going back now!!!


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## Ferdy

Cheers guys. What's the best place to put the video? YouTube or something?


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## The Systemic Kid

Ferdy said:


> Cheers guys. What's the best place to put the video? YouTube or something?


Upload to Youtube and paste link in a post.


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## Ferdy

Sorry about the quality!

Hope you get the idea - the cup was sitting a little high due to the scales. Didn't get a chance to pull another this morning but will be trying to replicate it tonight and will remove the drip tray so you can see the pour.


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## Burnzy

Ferdy said:


>


Love the way you couldnt work out how to get the cup out ;-)

looks good, for me a tad quick, i would grind a tad finer or tamp a bit harder to slow it up a bit... 29g in 19 seconds is a bit fast... You wanna drag it out another 9 seconds but get same extraction, but if it tastes good... Ave it!!!!


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## Ferdy

haha - the plastic was still on the scales so they didn't slide out, doesn't help that was doing it one handed









I don't think I tamped as hard as usual on that one as the initial extraction was a bit quicker - none of the choking I was concerned about. I'll try that first and see how it is, I don't want to make more than one change to my process at a time.


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## Burnzy

Ferdy said:


> haha - the plastic was still on the scales so they didn't slide out, doesn't help that was doing it one handed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think I tamped as hard as usual on that one as the initial extraction was a bit quicker - none of the choking I was concerned about. I'll try that first and see how it is, I don't want to make more than one change to my process at a time.


Yeah spot on, i use to change everything and didnt know what the hell was going on... Finally got it right now


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## Ferdy

On another note - is this the correct upgrade for thr steam wand?

Once I've got my process dialed in I suppose it would be nice to attempt from micro foam for some lattes.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rancilio-Silvia-V1-V2-Steam-Wand-Gaggia-Classic-Steam-Tube-Conversion-Kit-/271383061059?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item3f2fb0e243


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## froggystyle

yep thats the right one.


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## Ferdy

Thanks for that - just ordered one.

Hopefully that'll put a stop to my coffee outgoings for a little while


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## froggystyle

http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11548518#post11548518

This will help you change it, its easy enough but you need to bend/cut your old wand to the get the little nut thing off.


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## froggystyle

Ferdy said:


> Hopefully that'll put a stop to my coffee outgoings for a little while


Yeah right, that what we all say, then you spot something else you must have!


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## Burnzy

Ah man, happy donkey do them already modded so your warranty stays in tact.... Unless your machine is out of warranty then it doesnt matter...


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## froggystyle

£10 more than ebay though, plus postage!


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## Burnzy

froggystyle said:


> £10 more than ebay though, plus postage!


Yeah does work out more expensive, for me with a 3 month old machine i didn't mind paying.


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## Ferdy

froggystyle said:


> http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showthread.php?p=11548518#post11548518
> 
> This will help you change it, its easy enough but you need to bend/cut your old wand to the get the little nut thing off.


Thanks for that - also on OC forum - another good place for help and advice.


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## Ferdy

Take 2.

Exact same process only this time I tamped harder. It's still pouring a little quick so I suspect that I need to wind the grinder slightly for a finer bean.






Taste was damn good again. Happy with about 30g from 16g in.

Also attempted some milk, removed the turbo attachment and it actually turned out quite nice. Certainly a massive improvement over the it as standard. The wand has been ordered so not an issue.


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## Burnzy

Ferdy said:


> Take 2.
> 
> Exact same process only this time I tamped harder. It's still pouring a little quick so I suspect that I need to wind the grinder slightly for a finer bean.


Nice one mate!!


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## urbanbumpkin

If you look at the puck there's a small hole from a bit of channelling (bottom middle). this could have been what made the shot go a bit fast.

If you can, do a clip of your shot prep prior to the shot too.

The main thing is how it tastes


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## seeq

I noticed the potential channeling too. That's down to distribution (more techniques to learn) but it seems you've got your grind and tamp nearly sorted

When you get the silvia wand, just remember, steaming milk is hard







needs practice!


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## Ferdy

Thanks guys.

I fill a small cup direct from the grinder and fill the pf carefully with a few knocks to make sure it's level and consistent. It may well be the tamper that's the issue as it's a fare few mm of the size. It's always a nice even surface and is always finish with a little twist to polish.

Will do another video in the morning to show. No doubt I'll need a little guidance with my tamp.

Looking forward to moving onto milk once I've got everything dialed in and I can get some form of consistency.

So far I'm over the moon with the taste. I certainly like it with a lower ratio.


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## froggystyle

A problem with your tamper is that you cant get your finger and thumb in the ridge of the basket, when you have a decent one you will able to do this and feel if your tamp is not level, another area that can screw your shot up...


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## Ferdy

Well hopefully the new one will be here early next week so I can get to grips with it.

It's already been such a learning experience for something that most people simply rely on Nescafe for.

For your help gentlemen. I salute you.


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## froggystyle

Feels good though eh?


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## Ferdy

Amazing. Even better knowing that I'm only at the beginning of my journey.


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## urbanbumpkin

Ferdy said:


> Amazing. Even better knowing that I'm only at the beginning of my journey.


I still can't do milk!


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## froggystyle

Nor me, no point i just slurp it down!


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## Ferdy

Well I'm already amazed at the difference when not using the shitty turbo bubbler on the GC. Just concerned that I break the brass connector when I fit the new wand


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## Burnzy

Ferdy said:


> Well I'm already amazed at the difference when not using the shitty turbo bubbler on the GC. Just concerned that I break the brass connector when I fit the new wand


You shouldnt do, i think its just a case of bending the old and new wands to swap the nuts, then it should just pop in... You'll be amazed the difference that wand makes to the milk...

as others have said milk is the hardest thing to get down.. But you'll get there, it is a brilliant journey and hobby, i still cant believe the quality of my coffee, all from £600 and alot of reading and practice and of course the good people of this forum...


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## Ferdy

This mornings pour. 16 in 31 out and tasted lovely.

Still getting the channeling but managed a 23 sec pour in total with 5 secs till the first drops.

Must be my tamping that's doing it. As careful as I am it rocks about this a boat. Forgot to video it but will do it tonight.


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## froggystyle

Wait for you new tamper, that we help!


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## Ferdy

Firstly apologies to those fed up with my updates.

New things










Tamped things










Got coffee










Through this










Tamped it quite firm with 15.5g of coffee. 5 second extraction delay with a total of 31g in 20 seconds.

Quite happy with the taste but I get the feeling it should take a little longer for that volume.

Not sure I can tamp much harder so should I be looking to wind the grinder a bit more? Is there a reliable way to measure how fine the grind is?


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## seeq

There is no reliable way. And it's very dependent on things like humidity, temperature, age of beans etc. leave your tamping as is and tighten up the grind a little.


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## Ferdy

Will do. Normally turn the MC2 a full 360 degrees at a time. That enough?


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## Ferdy

In the never ending saga that is my simple espresso, this morning saw a terrible pour.

Not really sure what happened but I got a 5 sec extract with a crazy fast pour.

Think I need to re weight the beans as I'm not sure I'm getting enough now I've wound the grade down.

Would it be worth videoing the whole process just to make sure I'm not doing something silly.

Bit feeved now as I was really making progress.










Still some channeling as before. Balls. Could it just be this that's doing it?


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## jeebsy

You should be weighing every time to check


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## Mrboots2u

Few questions?

you were weighing dose and output and now your not? If so why did you stop?

I suspect you have altered the grind but not taken into account the effect this will have on the weight of beans a set time produces...

Are you single dosing or leaving some beans in the hopper? ( heat and humidity changes may have impacted on the beans and therefore grind )

All all other things equal ( when you pull shot ?

Is the fast pour resulting in a sour shot?


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## Ferdy

I'm taking care to weigh the output but not the input. I really didn't think it would change that much from a very small adjustment, my stupidity.

I'm also at the very last of my beans if that makes much difference?

I'll re weigh the grind tonight and make sure I'm at 8g.

I leave the bag of beans in the hopper but I'm already on my second bag so they are less than a week out of the packet.

If I pre weigh out 8g bags will that help? I didn't know if running the grinder down to empty would foob it up?


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## Burnzy

Yeah must weigh in!!! Then run grinder till empty, its fine to do that.

maybe post a pic of your grind on a sheet of kitchen towel.. Also 8g is a very small shot,, are you using a single basket?? If so they are difficult to get right, best to use a double and split the shot into two if you dont want a double in your drinks...

i use 18g in and get around 28g out in 27-30 seconds and its tastes great. I tried to do 16g in yesterday, same grind, basket and tamp pressure and it was a complete disaster. So 2g difference in input through everything out... The lesson here is.. Always weigh in. Good luck. You'll get it


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## Ferdy

OK. Will do.

I'm using the double basket with what I thought was 2 8g doses.

I'll weigh it up and increase to 9gs per grind.

Thanks for your help ?


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## Burnzy

Ferdy said:


> OK. Will do.
> 
> I'm using the double basket with what I thought was 2 8g doses.
> 
> I'll weigh it up and increase to 9gs per grind.
> 
> Thanks for your help 


were you always using such small doses...? I would do minimum 16g... I may be wrong, but that seems to little coffee for the basket, hence less resistance which would create 5 second shots..

i was having exact same issues as you, check out my thread "having a hard time with my coffee recently"

i didnt even have scales, so i ordered them as advised.... And ive fixed all my issues by sticking to the suggested ratios which was 18/28 in 27 seconds...

I have not gone wrong since, except when i cut the dose 2g it threw everything out...

post a whole video of your routine if you can, but if it was me crank ya dose up to 16 and go for 26 out in 27-30 seconds...

Someone correct me if im wrong though ive only been doing this home barista lark since april..


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## Burnzy

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17330-Having-a-hard-time-with-my-coffee-lately

the advice i got here made me an espresso wizard..


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## Ferdy

5 seconds is the initial start of extraction but the total time this morning was about 20 max. Tbh It didn't taste awful but certainly wasn't on par with my recent efforts.

I've always used 16g. I didn't realise I could do with more in there. Makes sense really, more coffee more restriction.

I'll increase the coffee volume and post again tonight. I'll do another little video too.

On another note, my new wand should be here today. Looking forward to testing it out with my new ghetto milk jug lol


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## froggystyle

Distribution and tamping are causing you issues also i would say looking at that puck, the water has found an easy way through as you can see with the big hole!

What size basket are you using?

Ghetto jug, i like it!


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## Ferdy

It's the standard double Gaggia Pf.

I really made an effort this morning. Dosed the first half then made sure there was no clumps by using a thin metal pin. Then Dosed the second half and made sure to do the same again.

Before tamping I tapped the pf to ensure a level and even dose.

Dropped the tamper into the pf, made sure it was level and tamped down with a good deal of force. Could I be tamping too hard?

They all seem to have the worm hole through. On a previous one I had a little dig through the puck with a small spoon and it wasn't all the way through.

Oh well. It's a learning process.


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## seeq

Why are you dosing in two halves?

Don't tap the PF. That will put holes on it. Level it with your finger if it mounds over the top of the PF or level it with the tamper.


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## froggystyle

Your grinding with a timer, so 2 x Xg?

I grind into a little glass at the minute, then give a little stir, then drop into PF, level with my finger sweeping it round the puck to get a level even finish, then tamp and polish.

I guess you need to find your own way to do it, lots of people will have different little ways and tricks and strange rituals, its what works for you to get it level, firm and even throughout the puck so that when the water passes through it does so at an even rate.

Time to buy more beans!


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## Ferdy

Dosing it in two parts as my wife can't hack a double.

Will stop with the taps and do as you suggest.


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## Ferdy

froggystyle said:


> Time to buy more beans!


I'm pretty much at the end of my HD roast but I've already got two fresh bags from a local roaster. They were quite expensive so I might pop out and get some from dirty Tesco as I'd hate to waste just cause of my crappy technique.


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## froggystyle

Yeah problem there is they will act differently in your grinder and classic due to the age, and fact they are mixed shite beans.

Best to buy the cheapest freshly roasted you can...


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## Ferdy

Balls. For the greater good I suppose.


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## Mrboots2u

For clarity please

Your putting how much coffee into what sized basket to get how much coffee out?

Are you putting 8 g in to single basket and pulling one shot then repeating?

If your putting 8g into a double basket and pulling a shot this won't work.


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## Ferdy

Mrboots2u said:


> For clarity please
> 
> 1.Your putting how much coffee into what sized basket to get how much coffee out?
> 
> 2. Are you putting 8 g in to single basket and pulling one shot then repeating?
> 
> 3. If your putting 8g into a double basket and pulling a shot this won't work.


1. 16g into double Gaggia PF 30g out

2. As above

3. See 3.

Sorry - I know I'm a pain in the ar$e. The way I'm dosing isn't helping - I'll look at increasing the timer on the MC2 to give me a single dose at 18-20g.


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## Mrboots2u

OK no probs.I wouldn't dose 20gin a standard double basket its too much.

The change in humidty will also have effected the grind and extraction too.


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## froggystyle

As boots says, i think i said a few posts back, go for 16g in your double, then take it from there, 20g is too much.

Ensure you weigh, don't rely on the timer on the MC2, i had mine set perfect for 19g last week, this morning, with different beans i am only getting 9g.


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## Ferdy

Wtf?! That's a huge difference!

I think I'm on my last beans from HD so I'll not make any adjustments yet but I'll make sure I weigh all the doses in and out.

It'll be interesting what I get out of a single grind dose now. I could have been very under dosed for the basket.


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## froggystyle

Yep, i don't like the timer thing, need to find a way to get a little set of scales under the chute.


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## Ferdy

I just put plastic cup on top of the scales under it and set to 0.

Still a massive pain in the arse and just glad they are little scales.


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## froggystyle

Yeah that works OK if your grinds drop out nice and smooth, i had some beans that flew everywhere due to static...

Have picked up some little cheap scales, feel a mod coming on...


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## Ferdy

I'd be interested in that - some kind of revised chute with integral scales.

I was wondering this yesterday finding a way to set some scales into the drip tray.


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## froggystyle

Boooom!

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?16711-Gaggia-scales-mod


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## froggystyle

Boooom!

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?16711-Gaggia-scales-mod


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## Charliej

I would suggest that you stop tapping the portafilter when dosing into it as this can cause fracture layers within the puck that then cause channelling and gushing shots, when I used to have an MC2 I found that by grinding into a small glass and then dosing into the portafilter needed no stirring with an implement or any other faffing about just tamp, polish and go, the more messing about you do with your prep the more likely it is that you can mess something up.


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## Ferdy

Well...

As advised. Changed my distribution and tamp. Filled with 19g exactly. No shaking or tapping just leveled across with my finger and cleaned the pf rim.

Perfect tamp. Flushed machine then boom.

Waiting... 5 seconds. 10 seconds... 15 a slight dribble. After 50 secs I had 29g. And oh boy. Bloody lovely. Rich caramels, smooth like butter. This is what I wanted from the machine. Perfect.

Check the pf and the coffee has touched the head. No problem.. Less coffee.

Made another straight away. With 18g. Again a slower pour. Waited about 40 secs and had 28g. Even better! Holy sh1t! Sweet like chocolate wrapped in a velvet blanket singing Barry White.

While I was on a roll grabbed some milk and broke in the new wand and my ghetto jug.

What a complete difference, made a complete racket but no added volume and was like creme. Got it to 60c and boom. Obviously no but looked like it should.

The taste? My god. Was like it had sugar in if. Creamy isn't the word!

Thank you guys so so much. A million Internet points to you all. Without your help I would have given up!

Some pics.





































The end?!


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## Ferdy

The coffee for anyone interested.


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## Charliej

Don't worry about there being an imprint of the screen or its screw in the puck after pulling the shot as the puck swells when saturated, the thing about not having an imprint in the puck refers to a dry puck as it then won't have any room to swell when saturated.


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## jeebsy

Ferdy said:


>


Why is the rim of your pf covered in shit?


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## Ferdy

Not sure tbh - only just noticed that - think I might have caught it on the top of the group head when taking it out.


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## Ferdy

Was half a sleep last night at whatever stupid hour it was. Put 19g into the basket - 20sec initial flow with 1:13 for 28g. Was like rocket fuel and a little too much for my taste!


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## seeq

1:13? That's not the pour time is it?!


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## Ferdy

Yep! Nearly the same as actual time!


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## froggystyle

Yeah you really need that new basket!


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## Ferdy

yeah - until then just over 17g is about the ticket.

Will keep my out for a bottomless PF too.


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## Mrboots2u

Ferdy said:


> Was half a sleep last night at whatever stupid hour it was. Put 19g into the basket - 20sec initial flow with 1:13 for 28g. Was like rocket fuel and a little too much for my taste!


Im all for experimenting with time and ratios and doses etc

But a 1.13 extraction will never be good










Too much coffee?

Too fine a grind ?


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## Ferdy

I know. I could tell as soon as it failed to flow before 20 sec that it was going to be a long wait.

Tbh it tasted better than my failed shots at less than 20 for a total pour


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## seeq

1:13 is a ridiculous time. Why did you even try it!? Straight down the sink for me







need to either seriously adjust the grind, or you need to work on tamping consistently. Have you got your new tamper yet?


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## Ferdy

Yeah got the new tamper, think I got a bit excited with it.

I've wound off the grind a little and won't stand on it quite so hard.

Think it's mainly just down to too much coffee. The ones I nailed were just over 17 and was perfect.


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## seeq

Which basket are you using? If you have a standard gaggia double that's designed for 14g. 17g maybe pushing it a bit.


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## Ferdy

Yeah its the standard Gaggia double, No wonder 19g chokes it!


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## seeq

I'd reduce the dose to 15g max. Maybe get yourself a VST or Strada basket if you like the bigger size drinks.


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## froggystyle

Go triple if you like bigger/stronger...


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## jeebsy

Your basket will go out in the morning



seeq said:


> Why did you even try it!? Straight down the sink for me


Why would you sink a shot without even trying it?


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## seeq

jeebsy said:


> Your basket will go out in the morning
> 
> Why would you sink a shot without even trying it?


I don't need to try a shot that took 1:13 to pour to know it's going to taste like drinking bitter sludge


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## jeebsy

Maybe i'm tight/scottish/waste averse but have never chucked a shot down the sink without trying it (i hardly ever sink shots generally too)


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## Ferdy

Haha. Me too! Not so long ago I used to buy Lava...


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## froggystyle

I think you can tell if its gonna be a duff shot, but i always have a sip, never just dump!


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## Ferdy

Well in further news. Dosing with 15-16g makes the puck stick to the screen! I think 18g is the money shot as per my perfect pulls.

Tasted a little burnt as I expected.

Still drank it.

Thats dedication!


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## Burnzy

Haha.. The saga continues, i love the 1:13 shot. Tbh i wouldnt of bothered, if you don't see coffee at gone 10 secs, id probably just abort the whole thing and start again.. Would of loved to of seen your face after sipping that one :-D

I use a standard gaggia double and use 18g.. Just stick to 18g, i notice you said 15-16g, id be more precise than that. I spend ages pulling out beans and putting in beans to get it exact 18.00g sometimes ill live with 18.01g, i read the smallest amounts can make a difference.


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## Burnzy

Sometimes its worth trying out a simpler machine.. Try this, i think its about 6.99 with some toy beans


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## Ferdy

haha - now that would have saved me some cash! Think I can do a deal on a Tassimo for my setup?

It would have been bob on - the scales I have are very accurate unlike my memory


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## Ferdy

Burnzy said:


> Would of loved to of seen your face after sipping that one :-D


This.









Never again...


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## Burnzy

Ferdy said:


> This.
> 
> View attachment 8218
> 
> 
> Never again...


haha brilliant!!!!


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## Ferdy

This morning... 18 in 28 out. Winner. Maybe 30 out later.

40 sec shot. Perfect puck.

Happy man.


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## seeq

I'd say that extraction is still a bit long. However 27 seconds is only a guide, if you enjoy it at 40 there is nothing wrong with that.


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## Ferdy

Might just wind the grinder back very slightly. See if I can Improve it a little.


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## Burnzy

Success! Roll the grind back a touch, keep everything else the same get it down to 30 secs and you'll be rolling in espresso heaven.


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## Ferdy

Firstly my thanks and gratitude to Jeebsy for the unpressurised basket that arrived this today. I'm humbled by your generosity.

So far so good...










Here's the pour

http://






Considering the difference between the pressurised unit I'm quite chuffed with this pour. It's a little fast so I've would it down a little more.

Taste was great. So hopefully with the extra grind it should be perfect.


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## Ferdy

Its thread revival time again now I'm back from Spain









Having some slight issues with my UP basket. Currently putting 18g in 32g out and its got a very smooth aftertaste - its just a little too sharp border like sour to begin with.

Any thoughts on this?


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## froggystyle

Your beans fresh Ferdy?


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## Ferdy

Yeah very but not too fresh.

Wondered if the beans might benefit from a longer our of about 36g as I understand that it can be a sign of under extraction.

Do you have a GC? What do you do for timings it the heat light?


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## froggystyle

Yep got a classic, how long did it take for the 32g to come out?


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## Ferdy

About 30 sec iirc


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## froggystyle

All sounds ok, yuor getting the classic up to a decent temp?

Like you say, try taking it a little longer...


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## clickhappy

Hi Ferdy,

I have a classic too and have been following this thread with interest. I upgraded from a MC2 to a Mazzer Royal a few months ago and recently added a PID to the classic but am still struggling to make a balanced shot. Have tried various coffees, temperatures, tamping/distribution methods, grind size/shot times to no avail. I thought it may have been that I just didn't like espresso until visiting good coffee shops and enjoying the flavours.

I'm hoping to find improvement through the advice you are being given and when I say I wish you luck, I mean it with a vested interest.

Thanks,

Tom


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## Charliej

clickhappy said:


> Hi Ferdy,
> 
> I have a classic too and have been following this thread with interest. I upgraded from a MC2 to a Mazzer Royal a few months ago and recently added a PID to the classic but am still struggling to make a balanced shot. Have tried various coffees, temperatures, tamping/distribution methods, grind size/shot times to no avail. I thought it may have been that I just didn't like espresso until visiting good coffee shops and enjoying the flavours.
> 
> I'm hoping to find improvement through the advice you are being given and when I say I wish you luck, I mean it with a vested interest.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Tom


Always remember to change only one variable at once, buy a kg or two of one coffee and stick with it until you get it right, with a Royal you shouldn't need to bugger around with dosing and distribution, i.e. no stirring the grinds etc, remember that the oft quoted 1.6 times dry weight to determine the final brew weight of your espresso is only a guideline as is 25-30 seconds, if you prefer a shot that runs at 2 times dry weight in 40 seconds that's fine. Currently, provided it doesn't run too long I'm ignoring time and just going for final weight and getting some great results.


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## hotmetal

I had the same thing with my MC2 (now a Mini) and my Pidded classic. Turned out it was the beans, I was using Sq Mile that the Classic's previous owner gave me. I did also find increasing the temp in the PID a bit helped. I tend to like 18> 36 @30" or thereabouts. (VST 18g). Currently using some SO Tanzanian that DavecUK kindly sorted me out with and loving it as espresso. (This bean doesn't work so well in milk). I may order some Rave IJ next (unless Dave has something spare) but I'd definitely consider what kind of roast the beans you are using have.

Longer than 36g is too watery tasting, I like the mouth feel of shorter shots but go too short and the acid starts to take over.

Royal and a Classic? Awesome grinder upgrade! A bit lopsided, presumably a strategy so you can upgrade the Classic straight to a dual boiler without losing cash on incremental upgrades?


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## Ferdy

Thanks for the continued support guys. Just did another shot and it was much better, not as sharp but very full bodied and rich.

This time I waited for the heater just to flick on again and therefore was a little cooler than my previous peak temp.

Ended up just over 32g from 18g in. Didn't want to change too much so now with a slightly lower temp I'll increase to 34g out and see what happens.

I think it's rather a dark roast but I could be wrong.

Beans










Shot


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## clickhappy

Charliej said:


> Always remember to change only one variable at once, buy a kg or two of one coffee and stick with it until you get it right, with a Royal you shouldn't need to bugger around with dosing and distribution, i.e. no stirring the grinds etc, remember that the oft quoted 1.6 times dry weight to determine the final brew weight of your espresso is only a guideline as is 25-30 seconds, if you prefer a shot that runs at 2 times dry weight in 40 seconds that's fine. Currently, provided it doesn't run too long I'm ignoring time and just going for final weight and getting some great results.


Thanks Charlie, I have been struggling with channeling but recently I have pretty much fixed this by nutating before tamping. I shall take your advice on sticking to the one bean, I have finished my has bean subscription a couple of months ago and have recently been ordering Rave Fudge for milk drinks and a random single origin that takes my fancy.



hotmetal said:


> I had the same thing with my MC2 (now a Mini) and my Pidded classic. Turned out it was the beans, I was using Sq Mile that the Classic's previous owner gave me. I did also find increasing the temp in the PID a bit helped. I tend to like 18> 36 @30" or thereabouts. (VST 18g). Currently using some SO Tanzanian that DavecUK kindly sorted me out with and loving it as espresso. (This bean doesn't work so well in milk). I may order some Rave IJ next (unless Dave has something spare) but I'd definitely consider what kind of roast the beans you are using have.
> 
> Longer than 36g is too watery tasting, I like the mouth feel of shorter shots but go too short and the acid starts to take over.
> 
> Royal and a Classic? Awesome grinder upgrade! A bit lopsided, presumably a strategy so you can upgrade the Classic straight to a dual boiler without losing cash on incremental upgrades?


Thanks hotmetal, I usually use a 1.4-1.6 ratio, I shall have to loosen off the grind and try upping the output to nearer 2 and see if this helps reduce the acidity. Yes the grinder machine setup does look a little unbalanced but I'm not ready to get rid of the classic just yet, I'm sure I can get more from it before upgradeitus hits. What temperature do you set your PID to and what is your offset?

Sorry to hijack the thread.


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## hotmetal

I might be wrong (probably) but 1:1.4 might be under and therefore on the acidic side?

I haven't really messed around with the PID enough to know what the offset is set to: the previous owner set it up. I've just changed the target temp without messing with the offset because I have no reliable way of calibration. I'm running 106° but without knowing the offset I can't tell you what the true brew temp is.

I too feel that I have more to come from the classic, more to learn, and longer to save up! Hopefully my mini will be good enough for any machine upgrade that may occur. I got a good offer on a sage db but my heart yearns for Chrome! I never normally allow looks to influence kit purchases but make an exception for Espresso machines! (Let's not hijack this into a sage db thread please! )


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## Ferdy

Last nights pour was much better, 36g from 18g. It had lost the sharpness and was a very well rounded cup.

Will have some time tonight to get a few more shots out so hoping to nail it.

Again thank for everyone's help and advice


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## Ferdy

Had some more time last night and managed to improve it a little more.

18 to 34g pour - 10 secs to start the flow with a total of 39 sec (from the press of the button). Taste was much better, really bringing out the cherry flavor in the shot. Still think its a little sharp but that could be from the beans.

Wound the grind a little as I think its a little too fine. Will see how it tastes on a slightly faster pour. Will update tonight when I get back.


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## froggystyle

Guessing here but, taking the shot to nearly 40 seconds on the gaggia, would the water be not hot enough at the back end, causing a sharpness to the taste?


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## Ferdy

That would explain a lot if it's the case.

Still looking for some advise to get the right temps. I understand that its at it's peak when the element light has just gone off but I don't really want to burn the shot.

In hindsight kinda wishing I just dug deep and got a better machine


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## froggystyle

Pick up one of these, stick the probe to the side of the boiler and route the wire out the classic and stick it somewhere, then watch the display go through a few cycles of heating and cooling, note the highest reading you get.

I have this and it helps show when the boiler will heat up again, meaning your getting the hottest water available.

It will error when you steam though as it cant ready that high.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-BLACK-AQUARIUM-TEMPERATURE-GAUGE-LCD-DIGITAL-THERMOMETER-FOR-FISH-TANK-WATER-/400545190663?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&var=&hash=item5d425a9307


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## Ferdy

Will order one today. While I'm there I need a new milk jug to replace the ghetto jug and the 4 pint one I got with the machine. What's the best size for use on a single cup?


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## froggystyle

I found Happy donkey the cheapest for no frills jugs.

https://www.happydonkey.co.uk/milk-foaming-jugs/


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## Ferdy

Not wanting to jinx it but I think I've finally cracked it. Perfectly smooth shot. 7 sec initial flow and 27 total.

One of the best shots I've ever tasted!


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