# Grinder burr alignment.



## Driliter (Jul 13, 2015)

Hi. I'm in need of a bit of advice. I've owned a grinder for 3 months and while cleaning it one day I started it on a 1 second run. I looked directly down through where the bean hopper goes and noticed a sideways wobble in the bottom burr. I took the top burr off and did the same run and took a video which is here:






The manufacturer denies it's happening. I returned it to the retailer, they say it's not an issue and sent a video of a good pour from my grinder. I get a small amount of channelling with a relatively light roast bean from foundry and a bottomless filter unless I grind extremely finely. This is not something that happened with my old grinder (quamar M80) at half the price but I'm prepared to admit may be technique even though I've been making espresso for over 10 years. Even if the pour is good though, surely a misalignment would affect the taste in some way? I just wanted to get someone else's take on this. My better half is a solicitor and says I should speak to her colleague, I really don't want to do that unless absolutely necessary but I find this movement in the burr troubling.

My question is, is this amount of travel in the burr going to affect my coffee in any way. It's an expensive grinder and one that I was hoping to stick at for some time.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Unless your going to measure the " wobble " or alignment and then show its outside of the manufacturers tolerances I'm not sure what legal recourse you have .

How does the coffee taste that you are making ( forget how the pour looks )

Anyone with more experience of a 75e of traditional big flat burr grinders care to comment on how this looks compared to there's. @DavecUK any comparison to your review model ?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

It's hard to tell from the video but it looks like the burr is not true to the shaft, rather than there being any wobble on the shaft itself. Aligning the burr is usually an easy fix yourself.

I'd be looking to remove the bottom burr, ensure it's completely clean underneath. Then I'd get three or more small pieces of card, cut from a cereal box packet or similar. Wedge these between the inner edge of the burr and the edge of the shaft. This should get it good enough.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Let your taste buds tell you.....looking at the vid, to me, it does not look so much of a wobble which would suggest a loose fitting, as perhaps a machining error but you need to find an engineer type person who can measure the run off on the shaft. This happens with more grinders than you think but I am never sure just how much it comes through in the cup and how much is you being armed with a little bit of knowledge


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## Driliter (Jul 13, 2015)

Thanks. I think the shaft the burr carrier sits on is straight as I can't see that moving. The burr not being true to the shaft is exactly what I was trying to say, thanks! I said in the email to the retailer that if eureka had said, we see there is some movement there but we don't think it's a problem, or we think it's within our tolerances I'd be happy. They told me it was an optical illusion from the burrs spinning and I was imagining the whole thing which made me very suspicious...

I just can't get it to taste "right". I was expecting more than the M80 but I'm actually regretting getting rid of it now. The coffee tastes a bit overextracted whether I pull normal espresso (channelling) or ristretto. It's just not as nice, even the better half wants to beat me to death with it, not because of how much I spent but because how much our "upgrade" was a downgrade. Again that could be explained away as operator error though. There's no way I can prove anything really, the manufacturer are not going to tell me there tollerances, and the retailer says it's fine which leaves me with nowhere to go. l

Looks like I'll just have to sell it, take a hit and be more careful next time!


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## Driliter (Jul 13, 2015)

I think the big example that comes to mind is the foundry yirgacheffe. With the M80 the strawberry really came through the flavours were all there, really nice. Now it just tastes muddy and muddled. The strawberry is nowhere.

A bit of a lesson here for me in that sometimes it's good to stick where you are if you're enjoying it. Chasing that next upgrade which should (but could /could not) improve things even more can end in disappointment!


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## lespresso (Aug 29, 2008)

I've got no idea why I am replying to this as I'm in no way involved, but just to say based on video provided I believe it is running true (look at the machined circle on the end of the shaft as it rotates: it is running true).

I think you will find the hexagonal machined faces on the shaft are creating an optical illusion; an appearance that it is running concentrically

Doser less grinders tend to distribute less well than dosered grinders, but don't let that deter you. Simply get a mini wire whisk for a few pennies and spin it around in the basket once the grinds are in. Perfect central pour will result I expect. Give it a go and let us know. Reiss


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Are you certain that your old grinder was perfectly aligned?

What is your recipe?

Until you get some confirmation that the grinder is beyond typical manufacturing tolerances see what you can do to mitigate the situation.

Over-extraction of a Ristretto with Foundry Yirgacheffe sounds pretty unlikely.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Was it brand new? Possible the burrs need run in a bit?

With most grinders there are three screws which hold the burr in place. There is always some degree of movement available. I don't think eureka would get involved unless there was massive amounts of play on the shaft which might indicate some kind of manufacturing issue.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

lespresso said:


> I've got no idea why I am replying to this as I'm in no way involved, but just to say based on video provided I believe it is running true (look at the machined circle on the end of the shaft as it rotates: it is running true). Doser less grinders tend to distribute less well than dosered grinders, but don't let that deter you. Simply get a mini wire whisk for a few pennies and spin it around in the basket once the grinds are in. Perfect central pour will result I expect. Give it a go and let us know. Reiss


Thanks Reiss, that's what I was looking at and based my assumption on that the shaft was ok.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

This might have been pointed out but after reading DavecUK's review on Bella Barista's website I came across this:

Note: As the TiN burrs are at least 3 times harder,it's going to take around 15-20kg of coffee to runthem in properly and start getting the best fromthem. This is in contrast to the usual 3-5kg forstandard burrs.

I do not know whether it bears any relevance to your case but it might be worth considering as one potential reason.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

risky said:


> It's hard to tell from the video but it looks like the burr is not true to the shaft, rather than there being any wobble on the shaft itself. Aligning the burr is usually an easy fix yourself.
> 
> I'd be looking to remove the bottom burr, ensure it's completely clean underneath. Then I'd get three or more small pieces of card, cut from a cereal box packet or similar. Wedge these between the inner edge of the burr and the edge of the shaft. This should get it good enough.


I'd also agree with this...the shaft is absolutely fine and true, there appears to be a little run out on the edge of the burr, undoubtedly due to burr alignment on the carrier.. When I had the 75E to test It came with standard burrs, I asked for a set of TiN burrs and fitted them myself, so by definition I would have made sure they were on with as little run-out as I could....I certainly don't remember having a problem after installing them. The trouble is I do this sort of stuff automatically, so although I might not remember, I am certain I would have centred the burr. It* might* be that part of the grind improvement I saw, was because the burr was centred....also don't forget the top carrier has to be aligned as well....which is much more difficult. and only an approx best alignment can be achieved.

This sort of thing it not unique to this grinder....it's the same with all grinders, there is some leeway with alignment when you fit new burrs. If this slight amount of play in fitting didn't exist, you would all to often find it impossible to fit the burrs. It would shock you to see in general how poorly grinders are aligned and yet they still produce acceptable results...one of the worst culprits can actually be some of the most popular makes as far as commercial users go. If you want a perfectly (almost) aligned grinder, you really have to build one yourself...but then it costs many, many times what the best you can buy costs. Will the improvement be worth the cost....I truly don't know...possibly, possibly not, possibly there won't be any improvement at all....but that's a separate debate about how grinders actually work, particle distribution etc..


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I fully agree with what Dave states, the shaft looks fine but the burr appears to run out. As Dave also stated this is common to many /most grinders, there is tolerance in the burrs to carrier and unless they are centered they will show run out.

Try slackening the screws then try moving the burr diametrically, it will move.

I have found on the Mazzer that three 1 mm strips of plastic inserted between the wiper arms centralises the lower burr in the carrier.

Centralising the upper burr is more difficult but the same principle applies.

As the upper burr carrier has certain movement tolerance there will always be a slight discrepancy. ( freedom to move with adjustment)


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

you might be able to make it better, by loosening the screws to the burr is able to be moved. then tightening the screws back up again ...... but ..... dont tighten 1 screw up at a time as it will draw the burr to that side, instead, light tighten each screw in turn just a little bit until each screw is done up properly.

Its the same method used on car wheels that dont have high tolerance locating spigots, the wheel nuts them selves work by aligning the wheel if you slowly tighten opposing nuts


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## Driliter (Jul 13, 2015)

Thanks for all the replies. I did try to loosen off the screws and locate the burrs more centrally but it didn't seem to help very much. There wasn't enough play to get them central. The video shows the best I could manage. If the retailer has been able to and they are now aligned I will be very pleased!!

It's not an optical illusion, the burrs genuinely do move laterally, if you look straight down from the top you can clearly see it through the hole in the bean hopper. And this has been what wound me up in the first place. Being told "no, but I can see it, no you cant, but look, no you're wrong" ! I have no idea if the burrs on my previous grinder were aligned, only that I have never had this problem with a grinder before which is what lead to me exploring it.

In this video 



 you can see the gap between the burr carrier and the side wall is not constant. But maybe this is normal.

Seems that for me I am out of ideas. Bitterly dissapointed, but thanks for all your help! I don't want it to seem like I'm ignoring help, only that I've done the best I can and it hasn't made any difference. Off to eBay...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

One final check, don't worry too much about the carrier, it's really the holes holding the burr and their radial distance from the spindle hole that matter. Remove the lower burr, check that the holes are clear and clean at the bottom and the top. you can use a HSS drill bit for this, use one larger than the holes and just by hand, take the bit and gently check to deburr the holes. Once you have twisted it clockwise in each hole top and bottom....try to align the burr again. When aligning, if you cant get it right, move the burr 120 degrees and try again, until each of the 3 hole combinations has been tried. The run out is quite small and you may well be able to adjust it out.

If you find that it's the inner rim of the burr coming up against the carrier preventing you centring it, perhaps see if there a burr there to be eased off....*if you still can't get it centred and are convinced it's affecting grind quality, go back and discuss it with the retailer.* It's very difficult for us to see in Videos, light and shadows play a part. It's quite possible the burrs are not yet fully "run in", they are very hard and it's unlikely you have used enough coffee over a 3 month period. This running in may well improve things.

A discussion with the retailer may not end up in you both agreeing, but you can explain your concerns and see if perhaps they have an amicable solution for you, or try again with Eureka.


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## Driliter (Jul 13, 2015)

Dave I will give that a go thanks! I've also had a very good private message explaining a few things which has been very helpful! Got to be worth a try...


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Check out the grinding channel on the Barista Hustle Slack, this has been covered at least a few times by myself and others.

T.


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