# Niche Grinder?



## Rakesh

Anybody seen this grinder due to come out? https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/ it's advertised on the forum and looks quite different to say the least. It's selling point appears to be zero retention and seems like a grinder built for single dosing (Doesn't have a real hopper?). With 63mm stainless steel conics at an angle running at 330 rpm, what do you guys think? Anyone want to speculate on price?


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## Apatche64

Looks promising, think I'll support it, doubt it'll be more than a mignon


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## Stanic

Looks nice!


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## Dylan

Just saw this on the front page. Will have a look at the campaign but consider me very skeptical that there will truly be close to zero retention - static is a problem at RPM well below 300 and I don't see them claiming to have solved the problem on their website.


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## jimbojohn55

So its an MC2 tilted 15deg with the addition of a lower burr carrier vanes, bigger burrs and 300rpm - looks like the lid is there to prevent the beans popcorning out. Having said that I like the concept if it all works, and I'm all for wood and metal combinations, but for gods sake change to colour, cream/white grinders with coffee and any static are not staying clean for long, also curious about the motor details.

But 10/10 for UK design and trying something different - will watch also with interest.


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## Jumbo Ratty

I think it sounds good on paper and I like how it looks.

Not sure why you're saying its an mc2.

Does it share any conponents with that machine?

Is Uberital in anyway involved with this?


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## Mrboots2u

Jumbo Ratty said:


> I think it sounds good on paper and I like how it looks.
> 
> Not sure why you're saying its an mc2.
> 
> Does it share any conponents with that machine?
> 
> Is Uberital in anyway involved with this?


I agree with Ratty , i am not even sure the burr size is the same ?

This guy has put alot of his money into developing this to the stage it is. Let's give some encouragement for a new player in the home grinder market and reserve judgement until it is out in the wild...

Wouldn't it be nice to have a home grinder that is stylish , quiet , and kitchen friendly .. Let's cross out fingers and hope he has pulled it off.


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## Rhys

Might be well suited to brewed, and possibly espresso (RDT maybe for static if it occurs?)

No idea how it will compare 'in the cup' to other grinders of similar burr size, and how it'll cope with lighter roasts etc.

Could be well worth keeping an eye on?


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## Glenn

The Niche team will be popping in soon to answer questions - they are @Niche Coffee


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## jimbojohn55

To be clear I don't think its an MC2 - merely size and conical burrs (I know it has nothing to do with Uberital) and this will be a far superior product as I understand it







- I am interested in the motor and its gearing?

also I will say it again bravo for the UK design and manufacture - and got to love those wooden feet.


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## Stanic

Wonder about the longevity of stainless steel burrs, when used for espresso grinding..much softer metal than hardened steel


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## filthynines

I know nothing of the technical details, but I really don't like the design. The wood-on-white reminds me of a cheap toilet seat lid on the porcelain.


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## 4085

Stanic said:


> Wonder about the longevity of stainless steel burrs, when used for espresso grinding..much softer metal than hardened steel


I do not think they are stainless steel, but food grade steel


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## Mrboots2u

Stanic said:


> Wonder about the longevity of stainless steel burrs, when used for espresso grinding..much softer metal than hardened steel


but this is aimed at the home users, not commercial qty


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## MWJB

Stanic said:


> Wonder about the longevity of stainless steel burrs, when used for espresso grinding..much softer metal than hardened steel


Isn't it likely the burrs are already in production & use in other grinders?


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## Rhys

MWJB said:


> Isn't it likely the burrs are already in production & use in other grinders?


To be cost effective, maybe.


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## MWJB

Rhys said:


> To be cost effective, maybe.


Most grinders use burrs made by 3rd parties.


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## Stanic

dfk41 said:


> I do not think they are stainless steel, but food grade steel


from their website










Mrboots2u said:


> but this is aimed at the home users, not commercial qty


Right, but would you for example rather have stainless steel burrs or TiN coated hardened steel ones in say Mythos even if just for home use? The edge retention is certainly worse with SS. Surely for casual home use these should suffice.



MWJB said:


> Isn't it likely the burrs are already in production & use in other grinders?


 No idea, the website says "our" burrs.


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## Mrboots2u

Stanic said:


> from their website
> View attachment 28363
> 
> 
> Right, but would you for example rather have stainless steel burrs or TiN coated hardened steel ones in say Mythos even if just for home use? The edge retention is certainly worse with SS. Surely for casual home use these should suffice.
> 
> No idea, the website says "our" burrs.


The people this is aimed at wouldn't look twice at a mythos.. Or understand tin burrs. And I presume they are Trying to keep the price down.


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## igm45

I'd be interested to know how much damage the sette has done to potential custom for grinders in their target market


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## Stanic

igm45 said:


> I'd be interested to know how much damage the sette has done to potential custom for grinders in their target market


Good question, this new one looks much better/simpler regarding the construction though. I really like the retro design, curvy sixties come to mind







now compare this to the Etzmax lol


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## igm45

It's certainly piqued my interest. The marketing seems suitably vague and non commital at this stage. It'll be interesting to hear from the designers when they join us on the forum


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## Rhys

I've signed up to keep informed of details. Depending on price, it might be a good replacement for my Isomac - which is also a conical, but has small burrs and tons of retention.

I think if they made one with a small hopper (say 250g) and an on demand button on the front (a simple timer could do doses) then to me, they could be onto a winner. Popcorning might be an issue to some otherwise?


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## RoryM

Looks interesting enough to at least sign up to their mailing list... would be great to see a locally designed and manufaxtured device


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## MediumRoastSteam

I've subscribed to their mailing list though. Looks interesting, but I really want to know more about how they are overcoming static and 0.1g retention as claimed on their site.

The Sette for example has been in design for a hell of a long time, and even then it has about 1.5 gram retention.

On my Kinu M68, and supposedly similar on the HG-1, there is some considerable static charge (which causes retention) if RDT or something like that is not used.

To be honest, I don't mind 1.5g retention. But they are claiming "+/- 0.1g" according to their tech. spec. page at https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/spec/

Looking forward to knowing more!


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## Dylan

Yea, i have the same questions and suspect its 0.1 under ideal circumstances.

The best that any of the big players have come up with for static is the 'clump crusher' which, like the mazzer antistatic screen, just holds the grinds up to help the static disperse. However these cause more than 0.1g retention themselves as a bit get stuck behind, and needs purging.

I basically don't think it is possible for them to have 0.1g retention in non-ideal circumstances. I am happy to be proven wrong of course!

Edit: having said all the above... Does the mythos retain a bit or use some style of clump crusher?


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## MWJB

Dylan said:


> Yea, i have the same questions and suspect its 0.1 under ideal circumstances.


Easy to test, but a bit pointless to claim if it only does this in non-real world circumstances.

I thought the Sette 1.5g retention was what was left between the burrs after the last shot & before dismantling/cleaning? Rather than dose to dose retention (allowing for some filling of voids in the grind chamber).


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## Beanosaurus

I'm gonna take a punt and guess that it will cost somewhere north of £400 but not by much.


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## Dylan

MWJB said:


> Easy to test, but a bit pointless to claim if it only does this in non-real world circumstances.
> 
> I thought the Sette 1.5g retention was what was left between the burrs after the last shot & before dismantling/cleaning? Rather than dose to dose retention (allowing for some filling of voids in the grind chamber).


It's a claim made by a few 'free fall' grinders such as the HG One and Mahlgut Grist, both of which fall fowl to static. The HG One states: "If you measure 17 grams of coffee beans for your shot and put it in our grinder, you should get as close to 17 grams of coffee grounds coming out as possible"

Admittedly the wording 'as possible' allows it to mean anything, but there is no mention of how it deals with static or how this affects retention or ease of use, and LW now do a sweeper to help loosen the statically charged grinds.


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## 4085

This grinder has been bench tested for a couple of years.......I think if the claim is 0.1 gms, then it will achieve that. Cannot explain how they achieve that though


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## 7493

It's interesting enough to sign up. I agree with the previous posts on a couple of points. A 250g hopper would be good and I would like to know more about the motor. Judging by my Pharos 68mm burrs take a lot of torque...


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## 4085

Rob666 said:


> It's interesting enough to sign up. I agree with the previous posts on a couple of points. A 250g hopper would be good and I would like to know more about the motor. Judging by my Pharos 68mm burrs take a lot of torque...


Why on earth would you want to stick a hopper on a grinder which has been designed for single dosing in the home......this is not a commercial grinder, there is no need for a hopper


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## igm45

Dylan said:


> It's a claim made by a few 'free fall' grinders such as the HG One and Mahlgut Grist, both of which fall fowl to static. The HG One states: "If you measure 17 grams of coffee beans for your shot and put it in our grinder, you should get as close to 17 grams of coffee grounds coming out as possible"
> 
> Admittedly the wording 'as possible' allows it to mean anything, but there is no mention of how it deals with static or how this affects retention or ease of use, and LW now do a sweeper to help loosen the statically charged grinds.


The hg1 has the funnel wiper for static:

http://lynweber.com/product/hg-1-funnel-wiper/

Even then they accept that in some climates its an issue and suggest rdt:

http://hg-one.com/the-hg-one-grinder/hg-101/static/


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## Dylan

igm45 said:


> The hg1 has the funnel wiper for static:
> 
> http://lynweber.com/product/hg-1-funnel-wiper/
> 
> Even then they accept that in some climates its an issue and suggest rdt:
> 
> http://hg-one.com/the-hg-one-grinder/hg-101/static/


Yes, I mentioned that in the post you quoted. My point being that it is relatively common to claim very low retention when it is often not the case and needs fixes to work. You can get close to zero retention grind-to-grind on a Mazzer SJ with mods - but Mazzer don't claim its made that way.


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## 7493

dfk41 said:


> Why on earth would you want to stick a hopper on a grinder which has been designed for single dosing in the home......this is not a commercial grinder, there is no need for a hopper


Three reasons.

1) Convenience.

2) A weight of beans above the burrs (or a weight of some sort) results in a more consistent grind. I see no easy way to add a bean weight to this design so a small hopper would answer that.

3) If the price guesses are close this would be by far the cheapest 68mm powered conical grinder available, so a hopper and maybe timer option would widen its appeal.


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## igm45

Dylan said:


> Yes, I mentioned that in the post you quoted. My point being that it is relatively common to claim very low retention when it is often not the case and needs fixes to work. You can get close to zero retention grind-to-grind on a Mazzer SJ with mods - but Mazzer don't claim its made that way.


Indeed you did. I looked but did not see, apologies.


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## 4085

Rob666 said:


> Three reasons.
> 
> 1) Convenience.
> 
> 2) A weight of beans above the burrs (or a weight of some sort) results in a more consistent grind. I see no easy way to add a bean weight to this design so a small hopper would answer that.
> 
> 3) If the price guesses are close this would be by far the cheapest 68mm powered conical grinder available, so a hopper and maybe timer option would widen its appeal.


The burrs are not 68 mm.

Everyone asks for a single doser, design one and suddenly people want hoppers.

Convenience.......no timer can ever produce the same consistent results as a true single doser. This has been designed by one of the most eminent engineers in the UK with far more knowledge and experience than anyone on this forum. It has not been designed to take a timer and hopper. Just because you can modify an SJ to be nearly zero retention from something that has a lot of retention........this has been designed from the ground up to do what it claims.....I would be thankful!


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## Dylan

I am hopeful... but skeptical. Perhaps he has made his sacrifices to the static gods.


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## 4085

More like the patent gods!


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## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> More like the patent gods!


Clump crusher?


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## Grahamg

I'm hopeful too - missing my beast of a conical, but not the retention or space required and current alternatives are huge money.


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## cjbailey1

Well the pricing is now showing on their website as £499 RRP. They are indicating 30% off if you sign up so I'm presuming this (£350) will be the indigogo price. I'm tempted as my baratza vario has horrible grind retention but I just don't know if I believe the claims.


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## haz_pro

I've subscribed - if it does indeed come for around 350 then I'm 99% sure I'll take a punt.

Edit: just send this video that I'd supposed to evidence the retention. Not sure if it's been posted before.


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## cjbailey1

The £499 figure comes from a press release linked to by their twitter account - http://uk.prweb.com/releases/2017/08/prweb14577833.htm

The 30% was stated on their home page. I'm always sceptical of videos like that! Easily seduced by new shiny toys though...


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## Dylan

Yea that video was up on the site from the start, it doesn't really mean anything as even if there was nothing between the cuts in that video those are very dark roast beans in what might well be an 'ideal' humidity.

Unless they answer the static question themselves i don't think we will find out until they are in users hands.


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## 4085

I believe there will be a thread starting soon from Niche where we will be able to ask away.


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## aaronb

The £499 predicted price and 30% discount was in the email I received this morning.

For those thinking of backing don't forget you are not pre ordering, you are backing a campaign and may not actually get anything at the end of it for your £350.

I find a few of the claims a bit outlandish as well, a lot of this was looked at when they released the Mythos One.


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## aaronb

cjbailey1 said:


> I'm tempted as my baratza vario has horrible grind retention but I just don't know if I believe the claims.


The Vario home? Surprised if so, mine has less than 1g and it's really easy to get it out.


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## DavecUK

aaronb said:


> The £499 predicted price and 30% discount was in the email I received this morning.
> 
> For those thinking of backing don't forget you are not pre ordering, you are backing a campaign and may not actually get anything at the end of it for your £350.
> 
> I find a few of the claims a bit outlandish as well, a lot of this was looked at when they released the Mythos One.


I will get a good try of one next Monday at home and hope to get one on longer term test to give it a proper working over at some point in the future.....Just roasting up the beans for Mondays testing now. I will be very interested to see how it performs. Ultimately it's about taste, but if you can get taste with, good quality construction, reliability, ease maintenance, use and convenience, it will be a good thing.

I have always said grinder manufactures, especially Mazzer have sat on their laurels, living of the brand while doing very little real innovation or improvements. If a start-up can come in and shake all this up....it will be a good thing.


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## Stanic

Glad to see the updated specs


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## MediumRoastSteam

haz_pro said:


> I've subscribed - if it does indeed come for around 350 then I'm 99% sure I'll take a punt.
> 
> Edit: just send this video that I'd supposed to evidence the retention. Not sure if it's been posted before.


That's no evidence in my opinion. We don't know whether the grinder was cleaned up before the video or not. In other words, if the previous retained 2g, then the new dose will have the last 2g plus the 12g from the new dose, leaving the other 2g behind for the next one sort of thing.


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## haz_pro

Yeah, that's why I put supposed. I don't believe a video from the manufacturer, no way.


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## MWJB

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's no evidence in my opinion. We don't know whether the grinder was cleaned up before the video or not. In other words, if the previous retained 2g, then the new dose will have the last 2g plus the 12g from the new dose, leaving the other 2g behind for the next one sort of thing.


What would you consider to be acceptable retention between cleaning/opening up the grinder & what grinder achieves this?

I think most people view 'retention' (to a tight tolerance like 0.4g for example) as the difference from one dose to the next? Perhaps we need to differentiate?


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## Grahamg

DavecUK said:


> I will get a good try of one next Monday at home and hope to get one on longer term test to give it a proper working over at some point in the future.....Just roasting up the beans for Mondays testing now. I will be very interested to see how it performs. Ultimately it's about taste, but if you can get taste with, good quality construction, reliability, ease maintenance, use and convenience, it will be a good thing.
> 
> I have always said grinder manufactures, especially Mazzer have sat on their laurels, living of the brand while doing very little real innovation or improvements. If a start-up can come in and shake all this up....it will be a good thing.


Superb, your efforts will be very much appreciated here by the looks of things!


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## MediumRoastSteam

MWJB said:


> What would you consider to be acceptable retention between cleaning/opening up the grinder & what grinder achieves this?
> 
> I think most people view 'retention' (to a tight tolerance like 0.4g for example) as the difference from one dose to the next? Perhaps we need to differentiate?


I usually emphasise retention as the amount of grinds that are from the previous dose into the new dose. For example, take a Mazzer Mini: There is a lot of compacted grinds behind the anti-static grid. For example, dose 14g into the basket. Wait overnight. Then do the same in the morning and dose 14g into the basket. You will potentially end up with 6-7g, if not more, of stale grinds into the basket. That's the type of retention I worry about anyway.

On a single dose grinder, I would expect that, after cleaning up everything, if I measure 18g of beans in the hopper and grind it, I'd expect 18g or 17.8g grams in the basket - so, ~0.2g). There will always be some fine grinds that will adhere to the burrs. That means that, at most, I'll end up with 0.2g of stale coffee in my cup the next morning. Subsequent grinds will yield the exact same output as the input.

I can get exactly that with my Kinu M68, but static needs to be controlled with RDT.

In my opinion, there is no much point in having a single dose grinder which retains more than 0.5g.


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## MWJB

17.8 to 18.0g is +/-0.1g, might be a bit optimistic given current grinders?

Not sure how fair it is to compare a hand grinder with an electric grinder turning at much higher speed? I dose +2 beans (~0.36g) in my Feldgrind and that's overkill.


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## 4085

oh, the positivity on this forum at times, is undwerwhelming!


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## Grahamg

I'll be honest, at the price, I'm not too concerned if it falls slightly short of the claims made. You have to take the marketing with a pinch of salt, and let's face it there are plenty of (far dearer) products out there with an Achilles heel, I'd be very happy if it got to 80% of the flavour of a commercial conical (i.e. kony - same size burrs) without the 40 odd grams of beans needing to pass through before you get 100% fresh grinds!


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## MediumRoastSteam

MWJB said:


> 17.8 to 18.0g is +/-0.1g, might be a bit optimistic given current grinders?
> 
> Not sure how fair it is to compare a hand grinder with an electric grinder turning at much higher speed? I dose +2 beans (~0.36g) in my Feldgrind and that's overkill.


I think that's the whole debate here... The advertisement that this grinder has retention of 0.1g.

Would be nice when they come aboard the forum and this can be discussed further and clarified.


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## Grahamg

aaronb said:


> For those thinking of backing don't forget you are not pre ordering, you are backing a campaign and may not actually get anything at the end of it for your £350.


Other than disappointment at the end product, you aren't risking money, crowd funding payments are only collected if the funding pledge target is met, i.e. at the level required for 1st production run.


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## Apatche64

That's true graham, however there are a lot that give a smaller target so they definitely get paid


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## MWJB

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think that's the whole debate here... The advertisement that this grinder has retention of 0.1g.
> 
> Would be nice when they come aboard the forum and this can be discussed further and clarified.


Well if it achieves this then it will be very low retention, I meant that currently I don't think that +/-0.1g is typical, nor a realistic tolerance for a similar electric grinder? You said that you currently expect +/-0.1g from a single doser.

When people have them in their hands it'll be easy to see whether they achieve +/-0.1g with 95% confidence. If it's a specification, rather than advertising hyperbole, then it should.


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## Grahamg

Apatche64 said:


> That's true graham, however there are a lot that give a smaller target so they definitely get paid


Ah, I get you now - I wondered for a while if there were some crowdfunding sites that had a higher risk approach!


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## MediumRoastSteam

MWJB said:


> Well if it achieves this then it will be very low retention, I meant that currently I don't think that +/-0.1g is typical, nor a realistic tolerance for a similar electric grinder? You said that you currently expect +/-0.1g from a single doser.
> 
> When people have them in their hands it'll be easy to see whether they achieve +/-0.1g with 95% confidence. If it's a specification, rather than advertising hyperbole, then it should.


I agree with you totally, don't get me wrong. What attracts me to this product is their claim, under the "Specs" page, that the retention is +/- 0.1g, and that brings me to watch its development very closely. I am not even fussy about that. I would happily buy one (or contribute to the funding at this stage) once I know more about how it works providing the price is realistic for what it really is.


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## 4085

MediumRoastSteam said:


> and that brings me to watch its development very closely.


It was a finished product a long time ago! It has been tested and tested. The chap who designed this designsed a product that is an international household name, so i seriously think it will not be under designed!


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## igm45

dfk41 said:


> It was a finished product a long time ago! It has been tested and tested. The chap who designed this designsed a product that is an international household name, so i seriously think it will not be under designed!


Have you had a go? How do you know all this?

Come on stop the cryptic 'I know how fantastic he/this is' spill the beans...


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## MildredM

Martin Nicholson. Connected with Kenwood, had a hand in dozens of famous brands around the world. (Quick google check).


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## Dylan

Grahamg said:


> Other than disappointment at the end product, you aren't risking money, crowd funding payments are only collected if the funding pledge target is met, i.e. at the level required for 1st production run.


There are a large number of crowdfunding projects that fail between successful funding and the first production run. Creators underestimate the costs of loads of things and regularly fail to deliver.

In addition to that there are a load of outright fraudulent projects just there to defraud people out of their money and unless they are for very significant amounts of money Kickstarter (I cant speak for indegogo) don't give a toss.

You have to be very VERY careful with crowdfunding and be really confident in the creators, if they dont have experience bringing a product from inception to market then pledging is a gamble.

I still back projects, I'm relatively careful but a good 20% or so haven't delivered, and thats money down the drain. To be fair this project ticks all the right boxes in terms of being something I would trust, and I imagine it will deliver - but there is absolutely no guarantee at all.


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## aaronb

Grahamg said:


> Other than disappointment at the end product, you aren't risking money, crowd funding payments are only collected if the funding pledge target is met, i.e. at the level required for 1st production run.


You might not even get an end product, many crowd funding campaigns with a working prototype have failed to deliver.


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## Grahamg

That I wasn't aware of - my crowdfunding experience has always been for events, low-cost products, research funding etc. and all to fruition out of a dozen or so backed but Ive never even browsed any other projects to get a feel for what might be high risk like that, all have come via specific media sources. Edumacated now!


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## 4085

MildredM said:


> Martin Nicholson. Connected with Kenwood, had a hand in dozens of famous brands around the world. (Quick google check).


http://www.ndcltd.co.uk/portfolio/


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## NickdeBug

Retention mystery solved

Bill the Border personally licks any retained grinds from the machine between shots









There is a danger that he will become wired and have to switch to decaf, in which case this grinder will only work for dfk.

(NB. I believe this theory to be as accurate and valid as any other speculation without fact)

Not a grinder for me (more than happy with E8), but it would suit the needs for plenty of folk out there so good luck to them


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## 4085

For me, I see it as a second grinder allowing me to dot and dab between decaf and not due to its single dosing. When I first got my Sette non weigh I did not use the Mythos for 3 weeks or so....


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## MediumRoastSteam

I use my Kinu with caffeinated and decafeinated beans on a daily basis, able to reproduce it both every time. There is no longer any beans wastage on my household. Once a week I take 10 minutes and clean the grinder thoroughly, and able to park the burr exactly where it was before.

The downside is, that one of my arms is getting rather muscular...

If this grinder can do the same, without the need for elbow grease, that's a serious contender for the domestic market.


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## DavecUK

Spent the day with Martin, had a long chat about the grinder, ground plenty of coffee, both carafe and espresso. Saw a second grinder disassembled in front of my eyes in less than 5 minutes with no special tools, this was impressive for ease of maintenance if ever required. I realise there is a little scepticism about the grinder, especially as it's "manufacturer tested" and "manufacturer claims". The claimed retention of 0.1g seems to be in the ballpark, but we shall see after extended testing, different beans and use of 2 sets of scales. I can only say I was amazed by this little grinder, absolutely amazed. I had lots of questions for Martin and the answers, plus the evidence of my own eyes were enough to know I was looking at quite a special little grinder. Key features that stood out for me are:



Very well designed


Excellent and unique cord storage


*Very very very good grind quality*


Nice slow burr speed


Static free (on the day and coffees I used it with)


Really low retention


Quiet


Super easy to adjust grind (not stiff and no tendency for adjustment to move)


Stepless


Quick to move from espresso to carafe and back again


Easy to use


Small size and relatively light weight....very kitchen friendly


Ideal as a cupping grinder in a roastery


There were some tough questions for Martin, all answered fully and has clearly done his research, in fairness the grinder pretty much spoke for itself. After seeing this little Niche grinder, I feel a little silly having spent as much as I did on my Ceado E92, but at the time that's all that would deliver in the cup with relatively low size and retention (after mods). Then I see this tiny grinder with big 63mm conical burrs, produce a grind (almost) the equal of my E92 with 71mm burrs. I put "almost" in to make myself feel better! As for the burr set....they are not cheap burrs, they are really good burrs. Niche don't make the burrs and I wouldn't expect them to, they are made by a very large well known Italian burr manufacturer...They should be good for 800kg+ of coffee, effectively a commercial grade burr in a domestic use grinder.

It doesn't need modding, it doesn't need any special care to use and so far it's good. *Martin decided to leave one of the production prototypes with me for a couple of weeks, so I will be able to give it a good thrashing in a real world kitchen environment* with both fresh roasted and older coffee of different types and roast levels. I guess it proves the Italians don't have the last word on coffee grinder manufacture and Britain can show them a thing or two. I struggled to believe what I was seeing and experiencing, seemed almost too good to be true.....let's see if I feel the same after 2 weeks?

*So far though....it's good!*

P.S. Can't say any more after this as the formal testing phase begins.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Great feedback as always and reassuring words from DavecUK. Looking forward to the test results! I'm really looking forward to it.


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## Dylan

Come on Dave... who's greasing you palm.

(j/k... incase it isn't obvious







)


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## Mrboots2u

I'd like to see a decent evaluation for the brewed drinkers on this.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Perhaps niche will pass a grinder on to review to someone with a kruve and a love of filter coffee to get a assessment how it performs versus mbk and others. @MWJB would be a good bet.

#paperjournalmag Glad to hear the grind looks consistent but at coarser settings for filter and pour over is where I'm interested in it and no offence but I'd like to see a bit more than eyeballing grind as a reference to consistency...


----------



## 4085

The 5 profiles are hand built and worth a lot of money so will not be sent out, it wat h this slCe


----------



## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> Perhaps niche will pass a grinder on to review to someone with a kruve and a love of filter coffee to get a assessment how it performs versus mbk and others. @MWJB would be a good bet.
> 
> #paperjournalmag Glad to hear the grind looks consistent but at coarser settings for filter and pour over is where I'm interested in it and no offence but I'd like to see a bit more than eyeballing grind as a reference to consistency...


Well I'm part way through my review and I have met Mark before, so I remembered what you said and have invited @MWJB over to have a play with the grinder. Let's hope he can make it over before it has to go back next Friday.


----------



## Jacko112

What are your initial thoughts @DavecUK


----------



## Tiny tamper

Jacko112 said:


> What are your initial thoughts @DavecUK


See page 8 m8


----------



## Rhys

Sounds like it's going to be really good..


----------



## PPapa

What I have noticed with my Santos is that the retention is fairly low as long as the grind setting hasn't changed radically. It's okay-ish (under 0.5g pretty much all the time), but once you change from espresso to filter it has from +1g to +2g retention and -1g to -2g retention when moving from filter to espresso. I wonder how Niche performs in that regard.


----------



## DavecUK

PPapa said:


> What I have noticed with my Santos is that the retention is fairly low as long as the grind setting hasn't changed radically. It's okay-ish (under 0.5g pretty much all the time), but once you change from espresso to filter it has from +1g to +2g retention and -1g to -2g retention when moving from filter to espresso. I wonder how Niche performs in that regard.


Be careful how you define Retention, really there is:


Total Retention = strip down including burrs and carriers, sweep arms etc.. after grinding out what you can, to find out what that is

Consistency = 20g in 20g out sort of thing

Exchange = what portion of the grinds that come out were from coffee retained in the grinder e.g. 20g in 20g out 1g might be exchanged and from the previous grind or even the 1 before.


----------



## PPapa

DavecUK said:


> Becareful how you define Retention, really there is:
> 
> 
> Total Retention = strip down including burrs and carriers, sweep arms etc.. after grinding out what you can, to find out what that is
> 
> Consistency = 20g in 20g out sort of thing
> 
> Exchange = what portion of the grinds that come out were from coffee retained in the grinder e.g. 20g in 20g out 1g might be exchanged and from the previous grind or even the 1 before.


Yeah, that's a good point. It possibly retains some, but it doesn't look too bad when disassembled.

I remember you mentioned the cord retraction. What's so special about it?


----------



## Tiny tamper

It certainly feels like a new dawn for the grinder this one and the monolith duo are definitely switching things up that's for sure


----------



## DavecUK

PPapa said:


> Yeah, that's a good point. It possibly retains some, but it doesn't look too bad when disassembled.
> 
> I remember you mentioned the cord retraction. What's so special about it?


Also unless you have found a way to measure exchange (which I have), you don't know how much of what's retained is being exchanged?


----------



## igm45

DavecUK said:


> Also unless you have found a way to measure exchange (which I have), you don't know how much of what's retained is being exchanged?


I received the email update from Niche saying some expert reviews will be released on their website soon, is that yours?

If so is there anything you can add to your previous thoughts?


----------



## DavecUK

igm45 said:


> I received the email update from Niche saying some expert reviews will be released on their website soon, is that yours?
> 
> If so is there anything you can add to your previous thoughts?


Not really when the report is done it's theirs not mine, they can't alter it, they can only choose to publish or not....they can use sections of it as long as not out of context, but only if the entire report is published. I'm quite strict about all that. Bella Barista have to work under the same rules..so it would be unfair to say any more. Plus I'm being extra thorough, because it's a totally new product.


----------



## igm45

DavecUK said:


> Not really when the report is done it's theirs not mine, they can't alter it, they can only choose to publish or not....they can use sections of it as long as not out of context, but only if the entire report is published. I'm quite strict about all that. Bella Barista have to work under the same rules..so it would be unfair to say any more. Plus I'm being extra thorough, because it's a totally new product.


Very elusive answer!

On the whole positive review after spending time with her?


----------



## Mrboots2u

igm45 said:


> Very elusive answer!
> 
> On the whole positive review after spending time with her?


It, it's an it.


----------



## Grahamg

We're a patient bunch aren't we?


----------



## igm45

Mrboots2u said:


> It, it's an it.


Nope,

Dearest father always told me machines and cars are her/she.

It's one of those things that stuck with me, I know there is no logic whatsoever.


----------



## Rhys

igm45 said:


> Nope,
> 
> Dearest father always told me machines and cars are her/she.
> 
> It's one of those things that stuck with me, I know there is no logic whatsoever.


..and when they go wrong it's your fault


----------



## MildredM

igm45 said:


> machines and cars are her/she.


My L-R feels masculine, and as yet I'm not sure about Mona - it doesn't feel either he, she or it yet.


----------



## holgr

I would't be too enthusiastic about this grinder. It uses conical burrs, which result in a different coffee taste than flat burs. Very inexpensive grinders such as the Graef grinders (quite popular in Germany) also use concical burrs. So I wouldn' expect too much.

Having the burrs rotating in an angle of 15 degrees or more is also nothing new. It's what the Eureka Mythos or Mythos One grinder does.

I tested different grinders over the years, such as the Graef CM 70, Rancilio Rocky, Mazzer Super Joly, Mahlkönig K30 Vario, Eureka Mythos, and Mazzer Major. I finally ended using the Mazzer Major having 83mm flat burrs. This at least seems to be - with a focus on dark roasts - the optimum grinder.

The statement from the Nichecoffee web site "Up to 33% wastage of your beans" is just bu..sh.t. What are they doing with their grinders to that they waste 33 per cent ?

holgr


----------



## Mrboots2u

holgr said:


> I would't be too enthusiastic about this grinder. It uses conical burrs, which result in a different coffee taste than flat burs. Very inexpensive grinders such as the Graef grinders (quite popular in Germany) also use concical burrs. So I wouldn' expect too much.
> 
> Having the burrs rotating in an angle of 15 degrees or more is also nothing new. It's what the Eureka Mythos or Mythos One grinder does.
> 
> I tested different grinders over the years, such as the Graef CM 70, Rancilio Rocky, Mazzer Super Joly, Mahlkönig K30 Vario, Eureka Mythos, and Mazzer Major. I finally ended using the Mazzer Major having 83mm flat burrs. This at least seems to be - with a focus on dark roasts - the optimum grinder.
> 
> The statement from the Nichecoffee web site "Up to 33% wastage of your beans" is just bu..sh.t. What are they doing with their grinders to that they waste 33 per cent ?
> 
> holgr


I wouldn't be so pessimistic until you tired one


----------



## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> I wouldn't be so pessimistic until you tired one


He is welcome to his opinion, as he obviously is a leading industry expert, even though I must admit I have never heard of him........ooppss, has not our forum, resident industry expert who tests machines of all sorts for recognised manufacturers (but sadly not Graef) been testing this for approaching 2 weeks now....


----------



## MildredM

holgr said:


> I would't be too enthusiastic about this grinder. It uses conical burrs, which result in a different coffee taste than flat burs. Very inexpensive grinders such as the Graef grinders (quite popular in Germany) also use concical burrs.


Some very expensive grinders also use conical burrs. I am not sure what you mean by that statement (nor the rest of your comments really).



> Mazzer Major having 83mm flat burrs. This at least seems to be - with a focus on dark roasts - the optimum grinder.


In your opinion, of course.


----------



## 4085

actually, I as a dark roast lover would say that the best results I have achieved over the years have been with conicals. The K10 fresh with an L1 using dark roasted Java Jampit produced absolutely stunning results. Far more so that when I ran a Royal. I steer away from conicals now for the retention, or faff you have to go through by modding (E92). The thought of a small grinder aimed at the domestic market using good quality industry recognised conical burrs with very little retention, I find incredibly exciting


----------



## ATZ

@dfk41 not to totally derail the thread, but I like dark roasts myself - best you've found? Feel free to PM


----------



## Mrboots2u

What else new is gonna be this size and kitchen friendly? Mignon, wanna place those tiddly burrs up against it?

Wait until it's out in the wild and see what it's core market make of it (core market won't be people with £2 k plus coffee machines btw)


----------



## holgr

Hi Mrboots2u,

of course, you're right. My point was just that coffee retention does not seem to be a real problem if you want to have good results in the cup.

And according to the Web site, the new grinder seems to be closer to a Graef household grinder rather than to a Mazzer Robur, for instance.

Best regards,

holgr



Mrboots2u said:


> I wouldn't be so pessimistic until you tired one


----------



## holgr

Hi MildredM,



MildredM said:


> Some very expensive grinders also use conical burrs. I am not sure what you mean by that statement (nor the rest of your comments really).
> 
> I know. My point was that the specs of the Niche grinder imply that it is closer to a household grinder such as the Graef ginders than to a Mazzer Robur.
> 
> [/color]In your opinion, of course.


Of course. As we're not talking here about "hard facts" such as particle size, distribution, for example, most posts in such a forum are the expression of one's opinion.

Best regards,

Holger


----------



## Mrboots2u

Burrs are not the same as greaf grinders, so the comparison is a mute one.


----------



## Stanic

Graef uses 38 mm stainless steel burrs, the Niche uses 63 mm hardened steel ones


----------



## Nopapercup

You've clearly tried a lot of grinders so it's interesting to see that you find the Mazzer the best one for you.

The Niche does sound a bit too good to be true but if they can achieve it, it will shake the market up and be very popular which must be a good thing. I would love to know how it will compare against a Major or Royal (besides size in my kitchen) as they will be in fairly similar price brackets for a used Mazzer or a new Niche



holgr said:


> I would't be too enthusiastic about this grinder. It uses conical burrs, which result in a different coffee taste than flat burs. Very inexpensive grinders such as the Graef grinders (quite popular in Germany) also use concical burrs. So I wouldn' expect too much.
> 
> Having the burrs rotating in an angle of 15 degrees or more is also nothing new. It's what the Eureka Mythos or Mythos One grinder does.
> 
> I tested different grinders over the years, such as the Graef CM 70, Rancilio Rocky, Mazzer Super Joly, Mahlkönig K30 Vario, Eureka Mythos, and Mazzer Major. I finally ended using the Mazzer Major having 83mm flat burrs. This at least seems to be - with a focus on dark roasts - the optimum grinder.
> 
> The statement from the Nichecoffee web site "Up to 33% wastage of your beans" is just bu..sh.t. What are they doing with their grinders to that they waste 33 per cent ?
> 
> holgr


----------



## steveholt

Burrs seem to be Mazzer Kony (or fiorenzato equivalent) sized but in a smaller housing and sans hopper.

I'm most curious as to how Dave rates the adjustment mechanism, and how the grinder measures up for espresso and/or filter performance. I'd accept it, the grinder, not switching seamlessly between those two grind size regions if the grinder's performance was super good at one extreme, or the other.

I also like the thread, and multiple point of views in it, whether I agree with POVs or not.









I don't like the poo-pooing or the our reviewer is better than yours stuff though.


----------



## Thecatlinux

There is a noitacable difference in the cup between conical burrs and flat burrs , anyone who has owned a conical burr grinder will tell you retention is its downfall ,to come up with a conical grinder which can overcome this is good news .

lets also not forget it's no mean feat to overcome the popcorning effect .

i wish this grinder all its success as it has certainly come in at very attractive price point in the market .

and has the potential to fill a certain Niche in the market for the home coffee enthusiast.

I would be interested to see how this is going to perform with lighter roast and also the scrutiny of brewed coffee and some refraction results .


----------



## Mrboots2u

Yep id like to see some chemex and v60 brews done with it also .


----------



## igm45

@Thecatlinux when you say 'see how it performs with lighter roasts' is that because of how fine, or because they are harder to grind?


----------



## DavecUK

Well although I cannot/won't express an opinion while the review is being done, even though I'd love to answer certain points that are "not well founded", to be polite. Fortunately @MWJB works under no such restrictions.


----------



## igm45

@DavecUK has your review been completed/submitted to the company?

I think its fair to say we're on the edge of our seats with baited breath waiting to see your in depth findings


----------



## coffeechap

@holgr you have made some very bold statements about this grinder, having never tried one. I shall hopefully get my hands on this soon and will of course share my findings in an unbiased way as does davec. I think this has the potential to be an excellent grinder, it uses the kony burrs which are great, has zero retention, slow spin speed and is kitchen friendly. The graef you refer to is is entry level at best and not in the same league as this.


----------



## Thecatlinux

igm45 said:


> @Thecatlinux when you say 'see how it performs with lighter roasts' is that because of how fine, or because they are harder to grind?


Not wanting to start the debate of light and dark again , let's just say I prefer the lighter roasts and in my experience find them to be a little bit more less forgiving when producing an espresso , they are certainly harder to grind , anyone who uses a hand grinder will tell you .

I am led to belive the burrs used are the same/similar as the Kony so it should be able to cope .

This little grinder is definitely getting a bit of interest which is reassuring for the makers I'm sure ,and like I've said I hope this is as good as they say, as reasonably priced coffee equipment for the home has been a long time coming .


----------



## MWJB

I have just spent a very enjoyable and fascinating morning with @DavecUK using the Niche grinder for a few brews and enjoying Dave's espresso, ground on the same.

Dave only has the machine until Friday & as I had a day off today I took the opportunity to accept Dave's kind offer to have a quick play with it. This is really just a snapshot of its brewed capability, but from what I have seen so far, it is impressive in terms of dose consistency. Dave has tested various aspects of retention based issues, so his report on the matter will cover this in more depth.

First off we dialled in a V60, my usual recipe 13.5g to 225g water, bloom 30s then 6 pours of 35g every 20seconds. This is the method I have been using since Saturday, with these same beans (IMM Limoncillo Pacamara peaberry) & my Feldgrind set to 2+6, giving extractions between 19% & 20%.

After a test grind that visibly looked too fine (around the mid point on the markings), we then went a little coarser (around 3:30 on the dial). I still had reservations, but Dave suggested we go ahead and brew. This turned out to be a good call, the brew came out at 20% extraction - juicy, sweetness and a representative brew.

We then set a French press brewing in a double walled steel Bodum (same grind & brew weights) whilst we sifted the grind with my Kruve, fitted with 400 & 1200 sieves.At this setting for the V60 we landed 76% between the sieves, 9.5% below 400, 14.5% above 1200.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Db7IqVAhkm0E7GYGkdMRYKhkz3pcXKYM2jR989rNeG8/edit?usp=sharing

This is a little tighter in terms of distribution than I see with my hand grinders (Lido1, LidoE, Feldgrind), which usually land ~70% between the sieves.

I was, however, concerned that we were running out of markings on the adjustment dial, at what appeared to still be a relatively fine grind when considering a range of brew methods. Dave said that the grinder would really go as coarse as you like, right up until the adjustment ring was wound completely off! So we went past the printed markings & re-sieved at a coarser setting.

This yielded 21% over 1200, 67% between the sieves and 12% under 400. This is the same ratio I'd expect to see from the Feldgrind at 20%EY brews. Again, this means the Niche has the same consistency as the Feldgrind, but at a coarser setting where the distribution should be getting a little wider. Note that I am saying that the distribution is measurably a little tighter, not that distribution is in a different ball-park.

We then went back to the French press which had been steeping for the previous 30 minutes (my usual steep time), still too hot for me at this point, but as it cooled it was comparable to the earlier V60, just a little hazier.

I wanted to see how coarse the grinder would practically go, so Dave then wound it a full 360 degrees past the espresso setting he had been using. This yielded 64% over 1200, 31% between the sieves, 5% below 400. This is about as coarse as I would ever go, to get this ratio on the Feldgrind I would be at over 3+6.

Dave suggested we brew this sample, so I stretched out a 12g (this was all we ground for the Kruve test) to 200g V60 brew to 3:20, pouring 20g every 20sec, yielding a 17.7%EY & a tasty brew of Dave's Brazil roast. Larger brews would certainly result in higher extractions.

The prototype we used doesn't have the final design as far as setting markings, so this was the only cause of my concerns - the fact that available range of adjustment appeared to be about 270 degrees of adjustment turn, but in reality this is not the case. Perhaps setting numbers around the entire circumference of the grinder would be a better solution, allowing the user to adjust across that 360degree range & then plus a full turn, if required.

I'm not really in the market for an electric grinder, however, the dosing with the Niche was impressive. Add your exact dose, plus one bean, and you get at least your dose out (at constant grinder settings). No purging, nor sweeping out of chutes. I tend to weigh beans into my hand grinders, add two beans, grind & weigh the dose out again into the brewer, but I'd be confident that I could just weigh out beans the once with this grinder, without significant loss, then brew.

Dave removed the burrs to show me how much was retained in the burr chamber, it was almost nothing.


----------



## PPapa

There's a new blog post (with little technical/useful information) on their website. I am just surprised how small it actually is:










Source: https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/blog/niche-zero-quiet-coffee-grinder


----------



## Rhys

Reading the above comments, I am quite excited on the progression of this little grinder. I'm thinking that it won't need to be as big as a Mazzer Kony, even if it uses the same burrs (other similar sized grinders are available) as it single doses. Usually there's a big hopper full of beans sat on top, and the grinder has to overcome the inertia from having being jammed with them to start the burrs grinding - which will take a big motor. This I should think just needs a smaller motor, more than likely one similar to an electric drill, to grind the beans as there will be less inertia to overcome. Also being a non-commercial, it won't need to be as tank-proof and won't be needed to grind a fraction of the quantity that commercials need to be able to do.

If the quality of grind is there, and 'in the cup' it performs as well as the titans then there will be a big market for it. Add a few different colour/wood options and I reckon they will be on to a winner..

Conics do well with darker roasts, that's a given that's generally banded about. What is this like with light roasts? How does it compare to large quality flat burr grinders?


----------



## Dylan

Fwiw I've tried to drive a Mahlgut Grist with a hand drill and its struggled with light roasts. However, a mains driven drill might have had no issue. I imagine the Niche will be employing a gear box considering its size and price point.


----------



## Rhys

Dylan said:


> Fwiw I've tried to drive a Mahlgut Grist with a hand drill and its struggled with light roasts. However, a mains driven drill might have had no issue. I imagine the Niche will be employing a gear box considering its size and price point.


Also, don't forget it's geared down so will produce more torque than a geared up or direct drive.


----------



## kennyboy993

Rhys said:


> Also, don't forget it's geared down so will produce more torque than a geared up or direct drive.


Meaning the higher torque will produce more consistent grind?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kennyboy993 said:


> Meaning the higher torque will produce more consistent grind?


I think he means with higher torque it can grind through harder / lighter beans without issues.


----------



## u2jewel

On the spec sheet of their website, it says the speed is 330rev/sec

But what they mean is 330rpm, right? As in revolution per minute.

I hope it's just a typo..


----------



## u2jewel

Another question...

Since it's a single doser, there's no dosing mechanism, time or weight. So on that same spec sheet, when they say the dose consistency is +/- 0.2g this is in fact in reference to retention?

I'm only being the annoying grammar police and nit picking because I am seriously interested in this product.

I thought the aimed retention was 0.1g? Has this changed?

For me, this doesn't change anything since it's still great numbers..


----------



## MWJB

u2jewel said:


> Another question...
> 
> Since it's a single doser, there's no dosing mechanism, time or weight. So on that same spec sheet, when they say the dose consistency is +/- 0.2g this is in fact in reference to retention?
> 
> I'm only being the annoying grammar police and nit picking because I am seriously interested in this product.
> 
> I thought the aimed retention was 0.1g? Has this changed?
> 
> For me, this doesn't change anything since it's still great numbers..


Well spotted, yes that's 330rpm.

If you put 15.2g in the grinder you will get 15g, but typically a little more, out.

Seeing as individual beans weigh what, 0.15g to 0.2g each, it's not easy to see how you could dose to higher resolution.


----------



## MikeBookham

MWJB said:


> If you put 15.2g in the grinder you will get 15g, but typically a little more, out.
> 
> Seeing as individual beans weigh what, 0.15g to 0.2g each, it's not easy to see how you could dose to higher resolution.


Sorry but I don't understand that logic.

I can't see that the dose resolution has anything to do with the bean size unless you are grinding one bean at a time because as you have stated they are not all the same weight, therefore the dose resolution is based on the resolution of the scales used.

Take the example where 18g could be made up of 90x0.20g, 120x0.15g beans or any number of beans between 90 & 120 depending on the individual bean weight. We can swap larger beans in a dose for smaller beans or vice versa if we want a precise weight.


----------



## Dylan

Did you keep an eye on popcorning MWJB? Would be very useful to run the test with thirds of the grind to see if the last few beans are being ground differently to the first few.


----------



## u2jewel

What I was initially confused about was the wording 'dose consistency +/-.0.2g' mentioned in Niche's website.

If there was a hopper on a grinder with plenty of beans in it, then I can understand if 'dose consistency' is touched upon. Through accurate timing, the grinder would need to start and stop consistently every time to dose as similar amount every time a preprogrammed dispense mode is used.

But in niche zero's case, time and timing is irrelevant, no?

Within reason it can take as long as it needs (depending on the roast maybe? lighter roast =harder =longer?).

Here, being a single doser, you expect out eventually what you put in, or as close to it, and the differential being retention.

So am I being stupid? I'm not sure what to interpret from this phrasing 'dose consistency'.

If it was referred to as 'retention' of some kind (DavecUK touched upon varying versions and definitions) then I understand.


----------



## MWJB

MikeBookham said:


> Sorry but I don't understand that logic.
> 
> I can't see that the dose resolution has anything to do with the bean size unless you are grinding one bean at a time because as you have stated they are not all the same weight, therefore the dose resolution is based on the resolution of the scales used.
> 
> Take the example where 18g could be made up of 90x0.20g, 120x0.15g beans or any number of beans between 90 & 120 depending on the individual bean weight. We can swap larger beans in a dose for smaller beans or vice versa if we want a precise weight.


You could always crack a bean in half if needed...or perhaps not. 

The resolution of the weight of beans dosed into the grinder is dependent on the weight of individual beans, they're not all going to be exactly 0.2g each & tidily end up at x.0g, I just found a Pacamara bean that was 0.29g. I tend to take a bit of care when dosing, but really, finding a particularly small bean to bump up the bean weight from 14.88g to 15.00g is a bit beyond the pail, even for me. Does anybody actually do this?

Of course the resolution of the dose you then brew with is up to you and your scales. But, it seems to me that the benefit of using a very consistent, single doser, is to grind your final dose weight plus 1 bean, or a little less if necessary, then get on & brew. If your final, ground, dose weight is typically +/-0.1g off target, is this really something to be concerned about?


----------



## PPapa

I agree with @MWJB on this one. As long as the retention is minimal, that's great news.

I cleaned Santos the other day and found 5g of grounds. Mind you, most of that is "static retention", i.e. it fills up gaps and holes, not the chute where it would affect day to day grinding.

I know it might be too early days, but I was wondering what's the resolution on the grinder for espresso? For example, what's the change in time between two closest reproducible grind settings? The settings are infinitely adjustable, but if you can't go forth and back, then it's a bit of a pain.


----------



## MWJB

Dylan said:


> Did you keep an eye on popcorning MWJB? Would be very useful to run the test with thirds of the grind to see if the last few beans are being ground differently to the first few.


Consider the dose & it's distribution as a whole, given that there will never be a sufficient weight above the beans to eliminate popcorning (visible, or not) the grind for each dose should be consistent. As it would for any gravity fed, single dose, grinder - which seem to be as popular as ever. Changes due to varying bean weight in the hopper are more of an issue if you have a hopper that will hold various significant weights. If you want a big hopper, this probably isn't the grinder for you.


----------



## MikeBookham

u2jewel said:


> What I was initially confused about was the wording 'dose consistency +/-.0.2g' mentioned in Niche's website.
> 
> If there was a hopper on a grinder with plenty of beans in it, then I can understand if 'dose consistency' is touched upon. Through accurate timing, the grinder would need to start and stop consistently every time to dose as similar amount every time a preprogrammed dispense mode is used.
> 
> But in niche zero's case, time and timing is irrelevant, no?
> 
> Within reason it can take as long as it needs (depending on the roast maybe? lighter roast =harder =longer?).
> 
> Here, being a single doser, you expect out eventually what you put in, or as close to it, and the differential being retention.
> 
> So am I being stupid? I'm not sure what to interpret from this phrasing 'dose consistency'.
> 
> If it was referred to as 'retention' of some kind (DavecUK touched upon varying versions and definitions) then I understand.


This is exactly why I raised my previous post in reply to @MWJB.

Dose resolution and dose retention are different things, neither of which are related to the bean sizes, so I don't see why bean size was stated at all.


----------



## MikeBookham

MWJB said:


> You could always crack a bean in half if needed...or perhaps not.
> 
> The resolution of the weight of beans dosed into the grinder is dependent on the weight of individual beans, they're not all going to be exactly 0.2g each & tidily end up at x.0g, I just found a Pacamara bean that was 0.29g. I tend to take a bit of care when dosing, but really, finding a particularly small bean to bump up the bean weight from 14.88g to 15.00g is a bit beyond the pail, even for me. Does anybody actually do this?
> 
> Of course the resolution of the dose you then brew with is up to you and your scales. But, it seems to me that the benefit of using a very consistent, single doser, is to grind your final dose weight plus 1 bean, or a little less if necessary, then get on & brew. If your final, ground, dose weight is typically +/-0.1g off target, is this really something to be concerned about?


Dose resolution is irrelevant on this grinder because it doesn't have a hopper.

The important thing is that ground output is as close to the the bean input as possible, i.e. low retention.


----------



## MWJB

u2jewel said:


> What I was initially confused about was the wording 'dose consistency +/-.0.2g' mentioned in Niche's website.
> 
> If there was a hopper on a grinder with plenty of beans in it, then I can understand if 'dose consistency' is touched upon. Through accurate timing, the grinder would need to start and stop consistently every time to dose as similar amount every time a preprogrammed dispense mode is used.
> 
> But in niche zero's case, time and timing is irrelevant, no?
> 
> Within reason it can take as long as it needs (depending on the roast maybe? lighter roast =harder =longer?).
> 
> Here, being a single doser, you expect out eventually what you put in, or as close to it, and the differential being retention.
> 
> So am I being stupid? I'm not sure what to interpret from this phrasing 'dose consistency'.
> 
> If it was referred to as 'retention' of some kind (DavecUK touched upon varying versions and definitions) then I understand.


Dose consistency in this case means the difference in weight between what is put in the grinder and what comes out of the chute.

The phrase "retention" is widely used to describe differing aspects, so @DavecUK has suggested these parameters earlier in this thread:

"•Total Retention = strip down including burrs and carriers, sweep arms etc.. after grinding out what you can, to find out what that is

•Consistency = 20g in 20g out sort of thing

•Exchange = what portion of the grinds that come out were from coffee retained in the grinder e.g. 20g in 20g out 1g might be exchanged and from the previous grind or even the 1 before."

...and they seem eminently logical to me.


----------



## u2jewel

@MWJB

I am so encouraged by your findings with regard to V60 (from 3 days ago with DavecUK)

It would serve me so well as my 'other' grinder.

Not second, but first equal grinder. My pro t64 can be filled with my main espresso blend, from which I would drink about 4 shots from daily, and then the zero grinder can hopefully accommodate my other coffees... daily first thing in themorning v60, occasional SO espressos mid afternoon and decaf after dinner and my midnight shot before bed (yes, I drink a lot of coffee).

If it requires no cleaning out or purging, it would be everybody's favourite backup grinder (or main grinder if low volume)

Heck.. If it suits espresso grinding with desirable particle size distribution, it might even pose the question of why it can't be the main grinder. We shall see, I guess...


----------



## Rob1

I think you'll find a large conical will produce a good grind distribution for espresso.


----------



## PPapa

Rob1 said:


> I think you'll find a large conical will produce a good grind distribution for espresso.


Settle has smaller burrs and it seemed to be praised for espresso? I didn't follow the thread too much, though.


----------



## u2jewel

I don't intend to start a Conical vs flat debate, but I wonder what factors made niche choose Conical..


----------



## u2jewel

I'm guessing it's because it's more focused on drip?


----------



## 4085

u2jewel said:


> I don't intend to start a Conical vs flat debate, but I wonder what factors made niche choose Conical..


Simple, they can take an industry recognised large conical which takes up a lot less space than say a 75mm flat


----------



## u2jewel

dfk41 said:


> Simple, they can take an industry recognised large conical which takes up a lot less space than say a 75mm flat


Oh.. Interesting!

I'm not that knowledgeable about grinders... I would have assumed something flat would take up less space (layman thinking ☺)


----------



## MWJB

u2jewel said:


> I'm guessing it's because it's more focused on drip?


Dave's had it for over week on espresso duty.


----------



## Jumbo Ratty

u2jewel said:


> I don't intend to start a Conical vs flat debate, but I wonder what factors made niche choose Conical..


I imagine conical burrs lend themselves towards less retention compared to flat burrs

Fkat burrs, the beans enter in the middle and work their wat outwards towards a much larger area.

Conical are the reverse of that, beans entering unto the biggest area of the burrs and exiting from the smallest area.

Or have i got that wrong about the way up conical burrs opperate


----------



## Mrboots2u

Jumbo Ratty said:


> I imagine conical burrs lend themselves towards less retention compared to flat burrs


Depends on the Grinder, angle of burrs (a la mythos) and path to exit. Generalisation but I would say the opposite is true when you are Into the bigger burr monsters.


----------



## Rhys

u2jewel said:


> I don't intend to start a Conical vs flat debate, but I wonder what factors made niche choose Conical..


Low speed? Grinds drop through instead of out the side?


----------



## PPapa

Rhys said:


> Low speed? Grinds drop through instead of out the side?


Also, conicals need less power to operate compared to flats.

One of the reasons hand grinders are using conical burrs. That, and I can't think of a design of a hand grinder that would fit flat burrs (with an exception of Pharos or HG-One).


----------



## u2jewel

WARNING : PERSONAL RANT

Every company has their style and characteristics, and respect to that.

But, I just can't help but compare Niche's approach, and Decent Espresso's.

2 very polar approaches.

I might be comparing oranges and apples, but similarity is that they are both trying to bring something radical (I wouldn't go as far as to say revolutionary) to the market.

Just my personal opinion, but in terms of R&D, engaging in some kind of discussion with various coffee forums, like what Decent is doing (up to a point, may I add) wouldn't have hurt.

At the same time, engaged properly, it would have been a great marketing exercise too.

Once the product is out in the wild, your average Joe won't know what to look for to differentiate against other competitors' products, apart from by price and looks.

In another words, USP of Zero grinder can only be fully appreciated by the likes of members in such forum. Greatness of zero can only be appreciated by those who have owned other grinders, and understand why and how retention is not desirable. (or zero as first grinder, then go on to buy another grinder to find out)

At £500, it would rarely be on the first time grinder buyers' radar.

As I say, once in the wild, survival of the fittest, and competition rules are advertising, market share and presence, along with good pricing and looks.

They had the chance to exploit people like us, and tailor it to the 'fussy' bunch like us.

Sorry, I'm just venting my impatience and frustration from lack of information. Maybe it was worsened by the fact that they clocked in once to say 'hi'. It shows they have the ability to communicate through such channel, but chose not to.

Is it my inferiority complex at being ignored?

Rant over.


----------



## Mrboots2u

u2jewel said:


> WARNING : PERSONAL RANT
> 
> Every company has their style and characteristics, and respect to that.
> 
> But, I just can't help but compare Niche's approach, and Decent Espresso's.
> 
> 2 very polar approaches.
> 
> I might be comparing oranges and apples, but similarity is that they are both trying to bring something radical (I wouldn't go as far as to say revolutionary) to the market.
> 
> Just my personal opinion, but in terms of R&D, engaging in some kind of discussion with various coffee forums, like what Decent is doing (up to a point, may I add) wouldn't have hurt.
> 
> At the same time, engaged properly, it would have been a great marketing exercise too.
> 
> Once the product is out in the wild, your average Joe won't know what to look for to differentiate against other competitors' products, apart from by price and looks.
> 
> In another words, USP of Zero grinder can only be fully appreciated by the likes of members in such forum. Greatness of zero can only be appreciated by those who have owned other grinders, and understand why and how retention is not desirable. (or zero as first grinder, then go on to buy another grinder to find out)
> 
> At £500, it would rarely be on the first time grinder buyers' radar.
> 
> As I say, once in the wild, survival of the fittest, and competition rules are advertising, market share and presence, along with good pricing and looks.
> 
> They had the chance to exploit people like us, and tailor it to the 'fussy' bunch like us.
> 
> Sorry, I'm just venting my impatience and frustration from lack of information. Maybe it was worsened by the fact that they clocked in once to say 'hi'. It shows they have the ability to communicate through such channel, but chose not to.
> 
> Is it my inferiority complex at being ignored?
> 
> Rant over.


Chill out dude. It's a coffee Grinder.

We are a small group of people who like coffee, not The illuminati.

Back don't back, buy don't t buy... Don't take it so personal.


----------



## u2jewel

Mrboots2u said:


> Chill out dude. It's a coffee Grinder.
> 
> No one is being exploited.
> 
> We are a small group of people who like coffee, not The illuminati.
> 
> Back don't back, but do not buy... Don't take it so personal.


Yes, I've calmed down. (3 deep breaths.. )

What I wanted to say was the opposite. I wish they had exploited us by exploring more in detail what people are after.

I don't expect giants like Eureka to come here and engage in small talk.


----------



## Jumbo Ratty

I think they already have a bloody good idea of what people are after and dont need the imput of some forum members.


----------



## Mrboots2u

u2jewel said:


> Yes, I've calmed down. (3 deep breaths.. )
> 
> What I wanted to say was the opposite. I wish they had exploited us by exploring more in detail what people are after.
> 
> I don't expect giants like Eureka to come here and engage in small talk.


Personally I wouldn't be listening to every tom dik or Harry on here. Have clarity of thought and design, get expert opinion (we are not expert).

Don't design and change by committee. It people on here will not buying This just commenting opinion on something they will more than likely never own or use.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Jumbo Ratty said:


> I think they already have a bloody good idea of what people are after and dont need the imput of some forum members.


This ^^^^^


----------



## coffeechap

u2jewel said:


> WARNING : PERSONAL RANT
> 
> Every company has their style and characteristics, and respect to that.
> 
> But, I just can't help but compare Niche's approach, and Decent Espresso's.
> 
> 2 very polar approaches.
> 
> I might be comparing oranges and apples, but similarity is that they are both trying to bring something radical (I wouldn't go as far as to say revolutionary) to the market.
> 
> Just my personal opinion, but in terms of R&D, engaging in some kind of discussion with various coffee forums, like what Decent is doing (up to a point, may I add) wouldn't have hurt.
> 
> At the same time, engaged properly, it would have been a great marketing exercise too.
> 
> Once the product is out in the wild, your average Joe won't know what to look for to differentiate against other competitors' products, apart from by price and looks.
> 
> In another words, USP of Zero grinder can only be fully appreciated by the likes of members in such forum. Greatness of zero can only be appreciated by those who have owned other grinders, and understand why and how retention is not desirable. (or zero as first grinder, then go on to buy another grinder to find out)
> 
> At £500, it would rarely be on the first time grinder buyers' radar.
> 
> As I say, once in the wild, survival of the fittest, and competition rules are advertising, market share and presence, along with good pricing and looks.
> 
> They had the chance to exploit people like us, and tailor it to the 'fussy' bunch like us.
> 
> Sorry, I'm just venting my impatience and frustration from lack of information. Maybe it was worsened by the fact that they clocked in once to say 'hi'. It shows they have the ability to communicate through such channel, but chose not to.
> 
> Is it my inferiority complex at being ignored?
> 
> Rant over.


Companies will all use varying approaches to deliver a product. Sometimes engaging on forums where everyone has a different opinion and by virtue off being on a specialist forum have more of an option than someone who is not can have problems.

These guys have done there own r and d and have been working on the product for four years and as such are quite set on the finished product. Getting into deep engagement on here now may be very costly and counter productive for their company. They may not want to put a vast amount of info out there until they have the patents agreed, they may be concerned if others using the developments that they have made ( which may be the future case, but keeping a lid on it for a while will give them the market share if the product is excellent)

It will be out in the wild soon and people will give opinions and rate it then and you will have your opportunity to buy it, or even sign up now and get a discount which other companies haven't done.

what we have to remember is that in the general scheme of things we are an absolute minority if the target market of this product.


----------



## u2jewel

@Jumbo Ratty @Mrboots2u

Yes I agree, I also wouldn't listen to every opinion ever posted.

There are, however in very small numbers, some superusers on every forum who know more about these things because they own /owned enough gear to have insightful knowledge of not only the fundamentals, but also strengths and weaknesses of their competitors.

If they have gone out and done this by collecting all known good grinders and reached a formula without having to resort to 'free consultants', then kudos to them and let's hope we're not disappointed.


----------



## u2jewel

@coffeechap

'These guys have done there own r and d and have been working on the product for four years and as such are quite set on the finished product. Getting into deep engagement on here now may be very costly and counter productive for their company.'

You're totally right. I forgot to factor this in.


----------



## Dylan

I think we have been a bit treated by Decent Espresso in their very open approach to development and engagement in the forum. It would be nice for all new manufacturers to follow this approach but I cant really hold them to it!


----------



## Rob1

u2jewel said:


> In another words, USP of Zero grinder can only be fully appreciated by the likes of members in such forum. Greatness of zero can only be appreciated by those who have owned other grinders, and understand why and how retention is not desirable. (or zero as first grinder, then go on to buy another grinder to find out)
> 
> At £500, it would rarely be on the first time grinder buyers' radar.


I disagree completely with the first statement. You don't need to have owned other grinders to know how important zero retention is. If you're buying whole bean coffee and a grinder it's a given that you know grind freshness is key to good coffee. It's a given that you want to get out of the grinder what you put into it. Retention is one of the first things anybody with intelligence will consider when buying a grinder. You don't need to experience grinding 21g of coffee before you get anything out on first use to know that isn't something you want.

Secondly the USP of Niche is not just that it has near zero retention but, like the Pharos and similar hand grinders, it uses commercial sized burrs to produce some of the highest quality ground coffee you can attain, but unlike similarly priced hand grinders the Niche is powered by a motor (but it's quiet). The USP of Niche is that it produces a commercial quality grind in the home environment without the compromises of hand grinders and without the large retention of commercial grinders like the Robur.

On your second point £500 seems expensive but comparing it to similar grinders: The Pharos at about £300 (Pharos 2.0 to be released soon at about £350), the Mahlgut at about £450 (motorised version in dev) and the HG1 priced at about $1k with shipping. Then to other electric 'entry' grinders: Mazzer Mini E £680, Mignon £300. Compared to 'large' burr grinders the decent grinder is $800, Zenith 65e about £589. Breaking £1k for 83mm flat burr OD grinders like the E37s and E8.


----------



## u2jewel

Rob1 said:


> I disagree completely with the first statement. You don't need to have owned other grinders to know how important zero retention is. If you're buying whole bean coffee and a grinder it's a given that you know grind freshness is key to good coffee. It's a given that you want to get out of the grinder what you put into it. Retention is one of the first things anybody with intelligence will consider when buying a grinder. You don't need to experience grinding 21g of coffee before you get anything out on first use to know that isn't something you want.
> 
> Secondly the USP of Niche is not just that it has near zero retention but, like the Pharos and similar hand grinders, it uses commercial sized burrs to produce some of the highest quality ground coffee you can attain, but unlike similarly priced hand grinders the Niche is powered by a motor (but it's quiet). The USP of Niche is that it produces a commercial quality grind in the home environment without the compromises of hand grinders and without the large retention of commercial grinders like the Robur.
> 
> On your second point £500 seems expensive but comparing it to similar grinders: The Pharos at about £300 (Pharos 2.0 to be released soon at about £350), the Mahlgut at about £450 (motorised version in dev) and the HG1 priced at about $1k with shipping. Then to other electric 'entry' grinders: Mazzer Mini E £680, Mignon £300. Compared to 'large' burr grinders the decent grinder is $800, Zenith 65e about £589. Breaking £1k for 83mm flat burr OD grinders like the E37s and E8.[/quote @Rob 1
> 
> yes, you're spot on.
> 
> I totally agree with you.
> 
> Also I could have worded it better to avoid misunderstanding. Instead of the word 'only' maybe a word like 'truly' would have more accurately portrayed what I meant.
> 
> I also agree with you that you don't necessarily need to have owned something inferior (in terms of retention) to understand and comprehend the importance and virtues of near zero retention, but surely, you appreciate it more if you have something inferior to compare it against?
> 
> As you stated, retention and grind freshness are correlated, but you'd be amazed at just how many people, even on these types of forums, are oblivious to it or tolerant about it. (jeez.. Maybe another controversial statement!)
> 
> Maybe my assumption that most who participate in coffee forums are true aficionados, is actually flawed. My bad.
> 
> One either belongs to
> 
> A) 'I cannot taste the retention' camp, or not aware of the concept, therefore does not purge
> 
> B) 'maybe I can taste the difference, but not too bothered by it, or finds it too wasteful' camp, therefore does not purge
> 
> C) 'I can taste the difference, so I purge' camp.
> 
> People who belong to group A and B, along with some in group C, who accept it as fact of life and never questioned the status quo, to me at least seem not THAT bothered by retention. Or put more precisely, maybe bothered but have different set of priorities.
> 
> So people like you and I, are a minority amongst the subset of Coffee junkies.
> 
> Back when I bought my first grinder, before upgadititis struck, retention, type of burr, size of burr were not the specs that I had prioritised highly enough.
> 
> Only through dissatisfaction (because of upgadititis) or the hunt for the legendary God-shot, would one come to truly understand key aspects of Coffee brewing.
> 
> I wish I was intelligent enough to have foreseen them all before my first purchase.
> 
> I had read the 'spend more on grinder than coffee machine' back then, but it made no sense to me, because without experience you cannot relate to it.
> 
> Your last point about the price... Don't get me wrong. It's almost too good to be true if all the promises are delivered. I'm definitely in, even if sette like problems are to be expected.


----------



## UncleJake

Personally I'd like @decent_espresso to get a hold of a Niche and share his findings.


----------



## u2jewel

UncleJake said:


> Personally I'd like @decent_espresso to get a hold of a Niche and share his findings.


Then we might end up with a panda like collaboration...


----------



## MWJB

u2jewel said:


> I'm definitely in, even if sette like problems are to be expected.


I can't see a relationship between the two? What's the mechanism that makes two unconnected grinders share similar, expected problems, completely separate to the rest of the grinder universe?


----------



## u2jewel

MWJB said:


> I can't see a relationship between the two? What's the mechanism that makes two unconnected grinders share similar, expected problems, completely separate to the rest of the grinder universe?


Hmm.. Sorry it wasn't clear.

What I intended to say was nothing malicious.

I just made a comparison to a new product, which is not evolutionary, meaning it's first of its type in that family/line.

If it was a mk2, version 2, or a +model etc where it is evolved from a known architecture, then one would likely expect less unforseen issues.

I think Baratza, even with their ok track record, struggled to foresee potential problems in a new design.

Niche, with their zero being the first in that lineage, might encounter some unforseen technicalities.

(I hope them success Btw so that we can be treated to even better products of that lineage in the future)

It was maybe a bad analogy..


----------



## 4085

I have had an email for the grand launch, but, perhaps I am thick. It is being released at 12pm on Monday 4th. Now, is that 12pm midnight or the other way round? Does anyone know if Indiegogo has a set time for launches


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> I have had an email for the grand launch, but, perhaps I am thick. It is being released at 12pm on Monday 4th. Now, is that 12pm midnight or the other way round? Does anyone know if Indiegogo has a set time for launches


12pm means "12 noon", 12am means "midnight".


----------



## khampal

The email for those who haven't seen it



> Hi everyone!
> 
> We are now just 1 week away from the launch of the Niche Zero coffee grinder. The campaign will be going live on Indiegogo at 12pm GMT, September 4th, 2017.
> 
> Don't forget that we've got exclusive discounts of up to 30% off the £499 RRP (limited quantity), so make sure you're ready at 12pm GMT if you don't want to miss out.
> 
> *What's exciting everyone:*
> 
> 
> Virtually zero retained grind
> 
> Great dose consistency
> 
> High quality 63mm conical burrs
> 
> Easy to use and adjust
> 
> Very quiet
> 
> Premium materials
> 
> Excellent coffee taste
> 
> 
> Thanks for all the continued support and please share us with friends and family who you think would benefit from the new Niche Zero grinder.
> 
> We'll keep you updated just before the launch!
> 
> The Niche Team.


----------



## Glenn

Probably best that anyone interested actually signs up to get the messages directly.

You wouldn't want to miss out now


----------



## u2jewel

I hope they publish DavecUk's review prior to the fundraising launch..

That'll take away a bit of nervousness and give me comfort ☺


----------



## decent_espresso

The next time I'm in the UK, if anyone here has one of the Niche's and is willing to meet up with me, I'd love to get make some shots with the Niche and see what the grind quality and particle size distribution is.

Inconsistent particle size or non-homogeneous distribution show up on our charts as perturbations on the smoothness of the pressure curves.

As to the Sette, I know they're having reliability issues, but they have in the past too with previous models, and with time they seem to sort them out. The Sette is a very attractive looking grinder, the grind-by-weight works well, and when grinding into their plastic hopper, shaking and then evenly dumping the grounds into a portafilter, I had nice smooth pressure rampup curves on the DE1+. Dosing directly into the portafilter caused side-channels to open up (and pressure to lurch during rampup); my hunch is that they don't have even particle size distribution coming out of the grinder (it's not easy to do!) but for the price and features, it's hard to complain about the Sette (once they solve the reliability issues).

For the moment, the Sette is what I recommend to people wanting a home grinder, and it'd be great if there were a 63mm home-kitchen sized grinder out there to recommend.


----------



## willardcw4

decent_espresso said:


> The next time I'm in the UK, if anyone here has one of the Niche's and is willing to meet up with me, I'd love to get make some shots with the Niche and see what the grind quality and particle size distribution is.
> 
> Inconsistent particle size or non-homogeneous distribution show up on our charts as perturbations on the smoothness of the pressure curves.
> 
> As to the Sette, I know they're having reliability issues, but they have in the past too with previous models, and with time they seem to sort them out. The Sette is a very attractive looking grinder, the grind-by-weight works well, and when grinding into their plastic hopper, shaking and then evenly dumping the grounds into a portafilter, I had nice smooth pressure rampup curves on the DE1+. Dosing directly into the portafilter caused side-channels to open up (and pressure to lurch during rampup); my hunch is that they don't have even particle size distribution coming out of the grinder (it's not easy to do!) but for the price and features, it's hard to complain about the Sette (once they solve the reliability issues).
> 
> For the moment, the Sette is what I recommend to people wanting a home grinder, and it'd be great if there were a 63mm home-kitchen sized grinder out there to recommend.


This! Would love to see this.


----------



## PPapa

By the way, does anyone else think that wooden feet in the kitchen and near coffee brewing/espresso equipment might suffer a bit?

Of course, a rubber mat below might be an option, but...


----------



## Stanic

PPapa said:


> By the way, does anyone else think that wooden feet in the kitchen and near coffee brewing/espresso equipment might suffer a bit?
> 
> Of course, a rubber mat below might be an option, but...


depends on the workflow









I like them


----------



## steveholt

I am feeling rather tempted to order one of these grinders -

The questions that remain are.

Is it expected to mechanically last longer than a Mahlkonig Vario Home?

Is it really a multipurpose single dose grinder, or do the burrs lend themselves more to espresso or filter brew??

Does the adjustment mechanism allow for the grinder to adjust from filter to espresso, or espresso setting 1 -> espresso setting 2, reproducibly between shots?


----------



## MWJB

steveholt said:


> I am feeling rather tempted to order one of these grinders -
> 
> The questions that remain are.
> 
> Is it expected to mechanically last longer than a Mahlkonig Vario Home?
> 
> Is it really a multipurpose single dose grinder, or do the burrs lend themselves more to espresso or filter brew??
> 
> Does the adjustment mechanism allow for the grinder to adjust from filter to espresso, or espresso setting 1 -> espresso setting 2, reproducibly between shots?


For most grinders, grind setting dictates whether you are grinding for espresso or filter. Sometimes dedicated brew burrs won't have a fine enough finishing area for dialling in espresso. Plenty of well regarded hand grinders are used for manual brews, despite being fitted with burrs originally destined for espresso machines.

The adjustment mechanism covers espresso to coarse in about 1 full revolution, you can go further if required.


----------



## MWJB

decent_espresso said:


> The next time I'm in the UK, if anyone here has one of the Niche's and is willing to meet up with me, I'd love to get make some shots with the Niche and see what the grind quality and particle size distribution is.
> 
> Inconsistent particle size or non-homogeneous distribution show up on our charts as perturbations on the smoothness of the pressure curves..


Very interesting @decent_espresso , do you have any data as to how particle size distribution and homogeneous grinds relate, with respect to the pressure curves you have seen?


----------



## u2jewel

PPapa said:


> By the way, does anyone else think that wooden feet in the kitchen and near coffee brewing/espresso equipment might suffer a bit?
> 
> Of course, a rubber mat below might be an option, but...


I assume your main point and worry is wood and water together? If I've missed the point, sorry.

I think there should be no problem at all longevity wise. As long as the layer of varnish is in tact, should be ok... Boats seem to be ok on water


----------



## decent_espresso

MWJB said:


> Very interesting @decent_espresso , do you have any data as to how particle size distribution and homogeneous grinds relate, with respect to the pressure curves you have seen?


What I can tell you is that on the Sette, and I've seen this on other grinders too (such as my EG1), is that if you dose directly into the portafilter, during pressure rampup (after preinfusion) I'll typically see "stutters" where the pressure drops for about 1/2 second and then catches itself and continues upwards to the pressure goal.

On both those grinders, if I dose into an intermediate vessel and shake the grounds to homogenize them, this pressure drop does not occur. The dosing-to-portafilter Sette suffered not only from pressure drops during rampup, but also channels opening up during the shot. However, none of that occurred on my Sette shots if I homogenized the grounds.

The EG1 tends to spray light particles to the sides, which many people interpret as a static problem with the EG1, but I think it's just that those particles are lighter and thus fly out of the grinder at a sharper angle.

Below is a photo of ground coffee out of my EG1. It's not hard to theorize that the lighter particles, in this case, are likely to be more concentrated toward the outside ring of the basket, and thus a non-homogenous distribution is in the basket. Since dosing-into-the-portafilter seems to correlate with drops in pressure visible on my DE1+, I'm guessing that's the cause.

Note that I am *not* in the camp of "unimodal is best" -- I just don't know. I do know that the EG1 makes tasty espresso once I have homogenized the grounds.

-john


----------



## steveholt

MWJB said:


> For most grinders, grind setting dictates whether you are grinding for espresso or filter. Sometimes dedicated brew burrs won't have a fine enough finishing area for dialling in espresso. Plenty of well regarded hand grinders are used for manual brews, despite being fitted with burrs originally destined for espresso machines.
> 
> *The adjustment mechanism covers espresso to coarse in about 1 full revolution, you can go further if required*.


And, in your experience, are the adjustments of the grind setting repeatable/reproducible?? (as for example, such settings are repeatable in an EK43)


----------



## Jacko112

When do we expect to hear back from Niche about all of our questions/queries? Seems a bit disconcerting to back a project, which on the face of it looks very good, without any answers from the producer?

I appreciate that Dave has been testing this and his review will be published in due course but I'd personally expect a bit more from Niche.


----------



## MWJB

steveholt said:


> And, in your experience, are the adjustments of the grind setting repeatable/reproducible?? (as for example, such settings are repeatable in an EK43)


My experience is seeing about 10 doses ground, starting at espresso, out to drip, then coarser, coarser again, back to espresso, 1 shot then 1 small adjustment to get the 2nd shot (with a different bean), in the ball park. For brewed I only change grind settings once in a blue moon.

I'm not sure what "reproducible/repeatable" actually means in your context, nor what the recognised tolerance/standard is, EK-43 & other grinders have adjustable dials for calibrating.


----------



## Viernes

How many watts have this baby? Torque power worries me when using very light roasts.


----------



## u2jewel

MWJB said:


> My experience is seeing about 10 doses ground, starting at espresso, out to drip, then coarser, coarser again, back to espresso, 1 shot then 1 small adjustment to get the 2nd shot (with a different bean), in the ball park. For brewed I only change grind settings once in a blue moon.
> 
> I'm not sure what "reproducible/repeatable" actually means in your context, nor what the recognised tolerance/standard is, EK-43 & other grinders have adjustable dials for calibrating.


My guess.. I think what he meant by reproducibility is, if your preferred espresso grind setting for beans A was at setting #2, and preferred drip grind setting for beans B was #9 on the grinder, then if he were to make espresso now, brew later and then come back to espresso, moving the grind adjuster back and forth (#2-#9-#2)

Would he get the exact grind back (without having to redial or fine tune)

Logic says yes, it should be able to, but in reality, it's not always the case..


----------



## Dylan

Viernes said:


> How many watts have this baby? Torque power worries me when using very light roasts.


I think it's very unlikely to be direct drive considering its size. Motors capable of the torque needed for direct drive cost more than this grinder does.

So that means a gearbox, likely automatic to cope with stalls and tough beans. Much like a home drill uses.


----------



## Mrboots2u

u2jewel said:


> My guess.. I think what he meant by reproducibility is, if your preferred espresso grind setting for beans A was at setting #2, and preferred drip grind setting for beans B was #9 on the grinder, then if he were to make espresso now, brew later and then come back to espresso, moving the grind adjuster back and forth (#2-#9-#2)
> 
> Would he get the exact grind back (without having to redial or fine tune)
> 
> Logic says yes, it should be able to, but in reality, it's not always the case..


You have a dial with an ek43 doesn't mean you get the exact grind back though ....


----------



## Mrboots2u

[WIKI][/WIKI]



Jacko112 said:


> When do we expect to hear back from Niche about all of our questions/queries? Seems a bit disconcerting to back a project, which on the face of it looks very good, without any answers from the producer?
> 
> I appreciate that Dave has been testing this and his review will be published in due course but I'd personally expect a bit more from Niche.


Why ? we are but a small forum , the grinder is designed and being tested...... they probably quite rightly have alot of things to focus on and i would suggest that this forum is probably quite rightly near the bottom of the list ..


----------



## u2jewel

Jacko112 said:


> When do we expect to hear back from Niche about all of our questions/queries? Seems a bit disconcerting to back a project, which on the face of it looks very good, without any answers from the producer?
> 
> I appreciate that Dave has been testing this and his review will be published in due course but I'd personally expect a bit more from Niche.


They did say in their last email that there would be another announcement prior to the launch on indigogo.

How prior, when exactly I don't know.

What information they will release /add to what's currently available, it seems we must wait and see.

It is less than a week away now, so it is quite soon. 

Getting a bit excited now.. I'm also eagerly awaiting to see Dave's findings.


----------



## u2jewel

What do you guys think?

I know it's totally upto Niche, but what do you guys speculate?

On the day of the launch of fundraising, how limited/unlimited the quantity for the early bird special available on offer would be?

Put another way, is it gonna be a 'U2 concert ticket' where it's gone in a flash? (yes I'm a U2 fan! Hence my username)

I guess no one knows for sure, but what do you guys speculate?

I've never done indigogo or kickstarter before. Is there some kinda pre-registration that needs doing?

Also, is this project still at risk of cancelation, if target is not met?

To me, it seems like well past prototype/development stage. Looks like something you can find on a shelf in a shop...


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Ok so I may gave missed it earlier but there a set of faqs now posted, which include the plan to start shipping these in June 2018. So I would assume indigogo is to guage interest and get funding for manufacturing the first batch...


----------



## Viernes

So no shipping until June'18 ! Doh...


----------



## Jacko112

Mrboots2u said:


> Why ? we are but a small forum , the grinder is designed and being tested...... they probably quite rightly have alot of things to focus on and i would suggest that this forum is probably quite rightly near the bottom of the list ..


I appreciate that we may be small fish in the scheme of things but seems a bit strange that they came on here & introduced it, and we haven't heard anything really from them since yet I would imagine they're still expecting us coffee nerds to back it (if we're interested)

Personally whilst it appeals to me I would like more information before putting my money in their pot


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jacko112 said:


> I appreciate that we may be small fish in the scheme of things but seems a bit strange that they came on here & introduced it, and we haven't heard anything really from them since yet I would imagine they're still expecting us coffee nerds to back it (if we're interested)
> 
> Personally whilst it appeals to me I would like more information before putting my money in their pot


Exactly my feelings too. Introduced themselves & asked us to ask questions. Few weeks have gone by and no replies what so ever. Don't understand the point really.


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Exactly my feelings too. Introduced themselves & asked us to ask questions. Few weeks have gone by and no replies what so ever. Don't understand the point really.


Guys, because it's a totally new grinder to market, new concept etc.. I have been giving it extensive and wide ranging testing. I have had to get permission for abuse tests, which I felt I had to do. In addition I have had 2 optional conical burrsets to test as well. I felt I had to make video evidence as well and come up with new definitions for what people wrongly refer to as retention, plus ways of measuring what I call exchange. It takes a long time to do all this and until tests are finished, Niche really don't know what's in them or what more to say. All this coupled with the need to not give away key technical details to competitors makes it quite a tough review for me. at the moment it sits at around 18 pages and I need to have it organised in such a way that it's readable by all.

I think perhaps Niche thought it would be a faster process than it was. I think you will find all your questions answered and more by the review. So my fault guys, sorry, but I am sure you would rather I am thorough and produce a review that is not below my usual standards, rather than some time constrained sales piece!


----------



## u2jewel

I don't know when that FAQ section was updated (guessing recently) but as someone pointed out in an earlier post, shipping is June next year!

10 months from now?

I was so naive for thinking it was gonna be a sooner. A lot sooner.

I would have thought that they would have MOU's for production with various suppliers and factories all sorted out, ready to press the start button once indigogo campaign successfully finished, let's say 2 months from the start, maximum.

I'm guessing it's not certified (CE) yet by the looks of the gestation period yet to come.


----------



## Rhys

All good things come to those who wait...

I maybe think folks are expecting Niche to be like Decent Espresso where they're continually putting ideas out and model progress etc.

Saying that, I would've thought they might pop in now and again to say hello..


----------



## 4085

u2jewel said:


> I don't know when that FAQ section was updated (guessing recently) but as someone pointed out in an earlier post, shipping is June next year!
> 
> 10 months from now?
> 
> I was so naive for thinking it was gonna be a sooner. A lot sooner.
> 
> I would have thought that they would have MOU's for production with various suppliers and factories all sorted out, ready to press the start button once indigogo campaign successfully finished, let's say 2 months from the start, maximum.
> 
> I'm guessing it's not certified (CE) yet by the looks of the gestation period yet to come.


God loves a trier....I think your two month expectation sums up a lot of things.......if it has been tested in r & d for 4 years, and assuming dave does not make any recommendations that they want to take on board causing more delays, allowing for the launch which since we do not know how much they want or over how long......means they cannot set up supply of any parts.......do I need to go on?


----------



## Dylan

I don't think anyone is lamenting the speed of your review Dave, even if we knew for sure that all questions asked would be answered in your write up (which I imagine they likely will) it doesn't change how much more engaging it is to have a bit of back and forth with a manufacturer.

As per a few of my other posts I appreciate there can be a load of reasons they might not have popped in, but all of that doesn't change the fact that it would have been awfully nice if they had, it inspires confidence and acts as a bit of free marketing as well.

@u2jewel - indiegogo doesn't require a project to hit its funding goal. Crowdfunding projects can run out of their 'Super early bird' (the best deal) tiers quickly but the quickest ones are the ones like the Pebble 2 where they have an established market and fan base.

Other project can take anywhere from an hour or two to days depending on how confidence inspiring they are and how big an enthusiastic their base is.


----------



## khampal

Given in the other thread the official Niche account ended the opening post with "Looking forward to your further questions" I would have expected they'd be actually answering the questions on that thread themselves.


----------



## u2jewel

dfk41 said:


> God loves a trier....I think your two month expectation sums up a lot of things.......if it has been tested in r & d for 4 years, and assuming dave does not make any recommendations that they want to take on board causing more delays, allowing for the launch which since we do not know how much they want or over how long......means they cannot set up supply of any parts.......do I need to go on?


My bad again...

I meant fund raising ends 2 months from now. Then production begins.

8 months to produce the first batch? (to ship to the first backers)

That's what I was dismayed at. I didn't expect them to FedEx it 2 months from now


----------



## Dylan

Very very very few crowd funding projects ship on time, so I would temper your hopes even more than you already are.

Even with an experienced industry professional at the helm, delays happen. Fundraising finishing doesn't mean they are beginning production.


----------



## u2jewel

Dylan said:


> I don't think anyone is lamenting the speed of your review Dave, even if we knew for sure that all questions asked would be answered in your write up (which I imagine they likely will) it doesn't change how much more engaging it is to have a bit of back and forth with a manufacturer.
> 
> As per a few of my other posts I appreciate there can be a load of reasons they might not have popped in, but all of that doesn't change the fact that it would have been awfully nice if they had, it inspires confidence and acts as a bit of free marketing as well.
> 
> @u2jewel - indiegogo doesn't require a project to hit its funding goal. Crowdfunding projects can run out of their 'Super early bird' (the best deal) tiers quickly but the quickest ones are the ones like the Pebble 2 where they have an established market and fan base.
> 
> Other project can take anywhere from an hour or two to days depending on how confidence inspiring they are and how big an enthusiastic their base is.


I second Dylan's opinion. @DavecUK

you have nothing to apologise for; you explained early on what your constraints and agreement with niche was, and the fact that you've put it through it's paces and now at some point we get to find out what your detailed 18 pages of review entails, is only doing us all a favour.


----------



## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> Very very very few crowd funding projects ship on time, so I would temper your hopes even more than you already are.
> 
> Even with an experienced industry professional at the helm, delays happen. Fundraising finishing doesn't mean they are beginning production.


I don't know a lot about crowdfunding, but:


It's usually all renders and an idea in someone's mind

they beta test with the first lot of owners

they fail to ship on time, because very little has been done before crowd funding

I've never, ever seen a product tested independently before they start looking for money, because usually there isn't any product?

They usually run into problems during the design stage, let alone get to production


I have a grinder, it works, it looks and feels like a finished product and I've personally seen at least 3 of them (wish I'd taken a photo) and I'm told more exist. I've also abused the hell out of it. In fact, I wish I could bloody keep it....but I can't. Can you say that about most crowd funding projects?

Any way I really really must finish the write up of this review, tempus fugit and all that.


----------



## Dylan

Unfortunately most of those points are based on an incorrect assumption, I'm not sure about indiegogo's conditions (i think they are a tad more lax) but on Kickstarter the project owners must have a working prototype.

The prototype can be a first prototype and not be at all tested for mass production but they have to have one.

I hag seen several projects shut down because of lack of prototype.


----------



## Dylan

Fwiw i should say this project does infact feel further along than your average crowd funding project and i have a lot more confidence in it. But that is almost a given as most you have to make a judgement on them as the go live, you rarely get a review from experienced users (although it certainly happens)


----------



## Jacko112

So that I understand crowdfunding, if you put your name down when is money taken/requested? Upon shipping?


----------



## Dylan

Jacko112 said:


> So that I understand crowdfunding, if you put your name down when is money taken/requested? Upon shipping?


Once the campaign is finished. And it is NOT a purchase of the product it is an "investment in the company" with a 'reward' at the end.

Which means if it doesn't delivery your SoL. (not always true, some campaigns attempt to refund when they fail, but not many)

It is obviously much safer to buy when it comes out without the discount.


----------



## MikeBookham

I've backed a number of crowd funding campaigns and what you need to decide after you've done your due diligence on the product and those running the campaign is to decide if you you're willing to accept that it is possible that you won't receive anything and that it's highly likely that any product you do receive will be delivered late, possibility several years late from my experience.

BTW Quite often delivery and import duties and fees are not included in the initial pledge.

Only you can decide if you are willing to accept the risks, I for one am not on this product.


----------



## SteveR

Crowd funding is no different from Dragons den, other than there are a lot more backers each putting in a smaller amount, but the same investment considerations apply.


----------



## khampal

SteveR said:


> Crowd funding is no different from Dragons den, other than there are a lot more backers each putting in a smaller amount, but the same investment considerations apply.


And you don't get a share of the company...


----------



## SteveR

That's true, good point.


----------



## u2jewel

DavecUK said:


> I don't know a lot about crowdfunding, but:
> 
> 
> It's usually all renders and an idea in someone's mind
> 
> they beta test with the first lot of owners
> 
> they fail to ship on time, because very little has been done before crowd funding
> 
> I've never, ever seen a product tested independently before they start looking for money, because usually there isn't any product?
> 
> They usually run into problems during the design stage, let alone get to production
> 
> 
> I have a grinder, it works, it looks and feels like a finished product and I've personally seen at least 3 of them (wish I'd taken a photo) and I'm told more exist. I've also abused the hell out of it. In fact, I wish I could bloody keep it....but I can't. Can you say that about most crowd funding projects?
> 
> Any way I really really must finish the write up of this review, tempus fugit and all that.


"can you say this about most crowd funding project?"

No, not at all. Niche is a university student in the field of kindergarten kids.

If it worked, looked and felt like a finished product, then rightly so the 4 years of development time was well spent.

I'm sure in 10 months time there are going to be some happy customers.

But having said that...

Dave, I am going to mention this in a reply thread to yours, rather than put in a separate post because I know you have a communication channel with niche. Whether you choose to relay it on, or not, is totally up to you.

Before I say it, please try to understand that it's not through my selfish need or desire to get this grinder quickly. I'm just worried the 10 months wait is going to be a major turn-off to more people than it may seem.

If they are an independently funded company, then, if they set a delivery date, that's what it is. They have their reasons.

But if they are going public, in order to get their money, terms and conditions need to appeal to as a broad an audience as possible. In any purchase, delivery date is a big factor.

Timing and momentum is such an important part of success.

Come on, they have a brilliantly made tank-like product which the word prototype does injustice.

They built it, so surely would have been in talks with respective parts suppliers. Unless you dropped a bomb in your findings that sent their dev schedule back by several steps, most of the hurdles are now behind them.

My question is, what's holding them back?

There may be a good explanation. If that's the case, I urge them to get the info out, either through their website, indigogo page or through here/you.

Anyone inquisitive is going to wonder why so long. Anyone analytical might falsely suspect something. Anyone impatient will simply bugger off...

And needless to say, I wouldn't want any of that to happen to them. The tree of '4 years of hard work' should bear a lot of fruit, not just some.

So in a nut shell, either bring forward the schedule of delivery for early birds, making the non early birds to believe the extra wait is just simply a queue in production.

Or,

Release information as to why the launch road map is scheduled so, which people then can comprehend and accept as the term of this backing.

For the record, I'm back on the fence. I'm not going to ask further questions because there won't be any answers.

I will eagerly wait their next info release, and judge by terms and conditions mentioned on their indigogo site.


----------



## haz_pro

I was 99% sure about buying it from the kickstarter, however I just can't wait until mid next year (with potential for further push back). It's a shame, maybe I'll pick one up once they're in stores (if they get to that point).


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

@hazpro, I absolutely agree, I was all set to buy one, naively thinking I would receive it in 2017. Atleast another 6 months wait makes me consider other options like a Sette, but then again I am not sure I could ever get used to the plastic case...tbh most of my interest was due to the combination of a low height and decent quality the niche appears to offer, so maybe I need to negotiate some cupboard free worktop space with my wife and get something bigger

.hey ho


----------



## Dylan

@u2jewel

I really think you need to have a read through the Decent espresso thread as a good example of what development and delays look like.

I think you are making completely uneducated (no offence, most of us here dont know how to bring a project to market) assumptions about how long something takes to bring to market. From the small amount of insight one is able to glean from a thread like the Decent Espresso thread or observing these things when investing on Kickstarter 8 months is a very tight time schedule, and you should not be at all surprised if it takes much longer than this.

Dave has said their prototypes are expensive and hand built - this means there is a long long way to go before such a thing can hit mass production. Take the Decent knock box as an example - he has has a prototype made out of cast aluminium for months, but has struggled repeatedly to turn this into a product due to problems with stamping the metal - and that is just a single piece of metal with no moving parts.


----------



## PPapa

That, and it is a bit frustrating to read "they designed it, why is it not on the shelves yet?" posts.

MBK did the same with AerGrind. They just couldn't mass produce hand grinders without having some money upfront.


----------



## haz_pro

Just to clarify on my post - I'm not complaining, I just had no idea how long getting something like this mass produced would take. I'm sure there will be plenty of happy people who are more patient than me.


----------



## Mrboots2u

PPapa said:


> That, and it is a bit frustrating to read "they designed it, why is it not on the shelves yet?" posts.
> 
> MBK did the same with AerGrind. They just couldn't mass produce hand grinders without having ome money upfront.


This above plus one and what @Dylan said plus one ..

To others Buy , don't buy , back don't back , the market will determine how successful these projects really are .These types of threads always seem to end up with , "well it's not ready when i want it" , "they havent answered my questions" , "it doesn;t do what i want it to do" " it won't do what it's supposed to do " ... So try and design and bring something like this to market and then confront all the armchair experts on here and other forums and stay motivated and focussed ....


----------



## Nikko

I'd hazard a guess that most of the 4 year "development time" to get this far thus far has been spent figuring out how to make it


----------



## 4085

Nikko said:


> I'd hazard a guess that most of the 4 year "development time" to get this far thus far has been spent figuring out how to make it


100% wrong


----------



## u2jewel

Dylan said:


> @u2jewel
> 
> I really think you need to have a read through the Decent espresso thread as a good example of what development and delays look like.
> 
> I think you are making completely uneducated (no offence, most of us here dont know how to bring a project to market) assumptions about how long something takes to bring to market. From the small amount of insight one is able to glean from a thread like the Decent Espresso thread or observing these things when investing on Kickstarter 8 months is a very tight time schedule, and you should not be at all surprised if it takes much longer than this.
> 
> Dave has said their prototypes are expensive and hand built - this means there is a long long way to go before such a thing can hit mass production. Take the Decent knock box as an example - he has has a prototype made out of cast aluminium for months, but has struggled repeatedly to turn this into a product due to problems with stamping the metal - and that is just a single piece of metal with no moving parts.


Thanks Dylan

I have been following decent across many forums, and totally understand and feel the pain, sufferings and setbacks they've encountered.

Manufacturing something well is difficult as it is. When there is a geographic, cultural and a language barrier, it makes it that much harder.

Admittedly I have no knowledge in consumer electronics manufacturing, but do have experience in mass manufacturing (in China, via HK) and understanding of the potential issues in coordinating many moving parts and aspects like supply, QC, logistics, customs etc... I know I'm being a bit of an armchair expert, but...

They've been in touch with parts suppliers already.

I am correctly assuming this because they've put a retail price on it already. They already know who is going to supply what at what price, and who is going to assemble it where at what price.

Ok, it's gonna be built in the UK (refreshing change to mass production in China). This essentially takes away half the headache decent are facing right now.

I just hope that there is going to be an explanation to the potential backers why it might take so long so that the likes of me can understand and accommodate their reasoning.

From what I have learnt, seen and understood so far, I cannot imagine what that factor might be, because I'm not in their shoes, and probably not privy to industry specific quirks.

It's ultimately at Dave's discretion, and I am really fine with whichever way he goes.

As Mr Boots told me ".. Relax dude, it's a grinder" 

Again, in my very humble (and anonymous) opinion, they have worked very hard, building on a strong, brilliant vision and successfully accomplished all this thus far.

If you ask me, they gathered all the right cards and played it very well, up until the point of public announcement (joining this forum, launching website) and establishing a launch date, along with launch on indigogo.

The first one can't be undone. But I was thinking second one maybe not set in stone yet. The beginning of this debate for me was, at least, that the strategic blunder made by them is not going to be too costly for them.

Then again, no one asked me. I'll apologise in advance if for whatever reason this comment upsets or offends people.


----------



## dlight

22 pages of posts. What on earth are you lot rattling on about? You give the impression that you're offended that a crowd funded project isn't talking to you. What the....


----------



## Jumbo Ratty

dlight said:


> 22 pages of posts. What on earth are you lot rattling on about? You give the impression that you're offended that a crowd funded project isn't talking to you. What the....


Its of utmost importance we suck the fun out of it


----------



## Dylan

u2jewel said:


> ...


I am genuinely surprised that you have hands on experience of a manufacturing supply chain and think that 8 months is a long time to bring a complex product to market from prototype stage.


----------



## u2jewel

Dylan said:


> I am genuinely surprised that you have hands on experience of a manufacturing supply chain and think that 8 months is a long time to bring a complex product to market from prototype stage.


Just pm'd ya


----------



## unoll

I've been way from the forum for a while so it's been pretty interesting to come back and find out about this grinder. I have these rambling thoughts:

Overall I think it looks like it has good potential and itseems to tick most of the boxes that home users (myself included) have been after for a while. I'm not a massive fan of the design but you can't please everyone and I've owned far uglier grinders.

If it can deliver the goods and be manufactured to a consistent decent quality then I think it could be a force to be reckoned with inthe home grinder market. If it does a decent job of filter grinding it couldend up being a popular choice for cafes that want a filter/SO grinder but don't want to fork out for an EK43 etc. The grinder seems competitively priced for the spec.

The reported retention sounds fantastic for an electric grinder,at the moment my EK holds on to about 1g from a full strip down and clean, and then it's about +/- 0.4g. I attribute the remaining 0.6g to the screw holes and behind the burrs getting filled up. The best grinders I have for retention are the hand grinders, but even then, they'll still hold on to maybe a beans worth.

The delivery time sounds fairly reasonable and realistic to me, I'm sure the team have a million hoops to jump through and that Martin is has good experience of what it takes to successfully bring a product to market and the associated time-scales. As a design engineer at a manufacturing facility I'm amazed at how long it can take to get even the simplest things designed & manufactured (not to mention all the compliance considerations).

Will I be backing it?............well&#8230;&#8230;no. If I had the spare cash then maybe, but at present I can't see the need for it. Following release; if I can put one up against the EK, Pharos et al and get results I find equally tasty and consistent, then it'd be a good idea to keep your eyes on the for sale forum!!!


----------



## DavecUK

Guys, I have the Niche Zero until Martin collects it on Monday morning. So it's here for a few more days. *On Sunday I am free during the afternoon and I am based in West Byfleet in Surrey. If anyone wants' to pop over and use it on Sunday 3rd September from 1pm to around 4pm, please let me know. *

I can't let you look inside it of course, but I can let you operate it as normal, use it, bring your own beans and you can use my machine, or bring your own brew setup and use that. You can use my scales and/or bring your own and test dosing etc.. If you are interested reply on the forum (via messaging) and I will get my details to those who want to pop over. I suspect it might be one of the few (or only) chances you get to use it hands on between now and production.

Dave

I have obtained Niches permission to do this and would actually welcome it, as you will be able to validate parts of my review as it should be published by then along with any videos.


----------



## u2jewel

Very hospitable of you 

If only time was 15 years ago, when I still lived in Cobham/Walton - on-Thames...


----------



## MWJB

DavecUK said:


> Guys, I have the Niche Zero until Martin collects it on Monday morning. So it's here for a few more days. *On Sunday I am free during the afternoon and I am based in West Byfleet in Surrey. If anyone wants' to pop over and use it on Sunday 3rd September from 1pm to around 4pm, please let me know. *
> 
> I can't let you look inside it of course, but I can let you operate it as normal, use it, bring your own beans and you can use my machine, or bring your own brew setup and use that. You can use my scales and/or bring your own and test dosing etc.. If you are interested reply on the forum (via messaging) and I will get my details to those who want to pop over. I suspect it might be one of the few (or only) chances you get to use it hands on between now and production.
> 
> Dave
> 
> I have obtained Niches permission to do this and would actually welcome it, as you will be able to validate parts of my review as it should be published by then along with any videos.


If you do take your own dosing scales to Dave's, 0.01g resolution might be best  The average difference between what I saw go in & what came out today was 0.04g over 7 doses - 2 at espresso, 4 at one mug pourover grind, then one more dose wound back halfway between the two settings. You'll likely only see 0.1g or 0.2g difference at the very next grind after a large swing in adjustment.


----------



## DavecUK

DavecUK said:


> Guys, I have the Niche Zero until Martin collects it on Monday morning. So it's here for a few more days. *On Sunday I am free during the afternoon and I am based in West Byfleet in Surrey. If anyone wants' to pop over and use it on Sunday 3rd September from 1pm to around 4pm, please let me know. *
> 
> I can't let you look inside it of course, but I can let you operate it as normal, use it, bring your own beans and you can use my machine, or bring your own brew setup and use that. You can use my scales and/or bring your own and test dosing etc.. If you are interested reply on the forum (via messaging) and I will get my details to those who want to pop over. I suspect it might be one of the few (or only) chances you get to use it hands on between now and production.
> 
> Dave
> 
> I have obtained Niches permission to do this and would actually welcome it, as you will be able to validate parts of my review as it should be published by then along with any videos.





MWJB said:


> If you do take your own dosing scales to Dave's, 0.01g resolution might be best  The average difference between what I saw go in & what came out today was 0.04g over 7 doses - 2 at espresso, 4 at one mug pourover grind, then one more dose wound back halfway between the two settings. You'll likely only see 0.1g or 0.2g difference at the very next grind after a large swing in adjustment.


Very good point, *0.1g resolution scales will not be sufficient*....of course I have a set, but you might trust your own better.


----------



## haz_pro

Ah I'd have loved to take up that offer, shame I'll be stuck in Chessington World!


----------



## jlarkin

I just wanted to write out the thanks for Dave's kind offer (and Niche for letting people have a play if they're able to). Unfortunately this weekend I'll be alone looking after my 2 year old daughter and for whatever reason she's not as into coffee as I am (yet). So I can't make it, but I think it's great you're offering to do it and if I could get there I definitely would!


----------



## DavecUK

DavecUK said:


> Guys, I have the Niche Zero until Martin collects it on Monday morning. So it's here for a few more days. *On Sunday I am free during the afternoon and I am based in West Byfleet in Surrey. If anyone wants' to pop over and use it on Sunday 3rd September from 1pm to around 4pm, please let me know. *
> 
> I can't let you look inside it of course, but I can let you operate it as normal, use it, bring your own beans and you can use my machine, or bring your own brew setup and use that. You can use my scales and/or bring your own and test dosing etc.. If you are interested reply on the forum (via messaging) and I will get my details to those who want to pop over. I suspect it might be one of the few (or only) chances you get to use it hands on between now and production.
> 
> Dave
> 
> I have obtained Niches permission to do this and would actually welcome it, as you will be able to validate parts of my review as it should be published by then along with any videos.


The review if finally complete and being proof read, because I am now word blind to errors. It also has links to Videos, so if/when published....enjoy. It's a detailed read, but I know most of you are up to it.....

P.S. if there is anything I forgot to do, I'll look forward to seeing those tests done when people get their grinders.


----------



## UncleJake

Amazing Dave. Thanks for letting us know.

On the thread weirdness: most developers/manufacturers aren't any part of the forum at all; Therefore they don't receive personal attacks or need to spend the time fielding questions - some of which come from genuine experts, and some of which come from people who don't know the right end of a portafilter. It's easy to assume we're a combined force - but we're not.

Giving 'us' a Grinder or two, and plenty of time to break it - BEFORE it's even built, is frankly beyond expectations for any company. It's frankly insane (In the most generous, open way).

It smells heavily of: 'our words don't matter. Our product does'.

I do see however that the way the thread starts - looks like it would become the kind of thread Decent Espresso have been part of - so expectations we're raised.

Decent's approach is unique - and risky. John has probably received more attacks than rewards through this approach.

It's ace that Niche are involving us at all.

I don't know the forum numbers. 15k? But imagine laying your last four years work on the line and let that many anonymous weirdos comment on it.

Good luck. Promise I'll do my best to be nice, even if I really want what you're making.


----------



## DavecUK

DavecUK said:


> Guys, I have the Niche Zero until Martin collects it on Monday morning. So it's here for a few more days. *On Sunday I am free during the afternoon and I am based in West Byfleet in Surrey. If anyone wants' to pop over and use it on Sunday 3rd September from 1pm to around 4pm, please let me know. *
> 
> I can't let you look inside it of course, but I can let you operate it as normal, use it, bring your own beans and you can use my machine, or bring your own brew setup and use that. You can use my scales and/or bring your own and test dosing etc.. If you are interested reply on the forum (via messaging) and I will get my details to those who want to pop over. I suspect it might be one of the few (or only) chances you get to use it hands on between now and production.
> 
> Dave
> 
> I have obtained Niches permission to do this and would actually welcome it, as you will be able to validate parts of my review as it should be published by then along with any videos.


I reposted the above to remind anyone about Sunday. As for the review it's done. I've permission to post a link here and Niche will be sending links and hosting on their website as soon as they get around to it. So you get an early preview and there are Videos to watch as well....keep an eye out for the links in the review (you may have to cut and paste em).

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Asx_Hxo4gvfkkAb7xUCJBbdp3MAD

I think the link above should take you to the review...enjoy.


----------



## khampal

DavecUK said:


> I reposted the above to remind anyone about Sunday. As for the review it's done. I've permission to post a link here and Niche will be sending links and hosting on their website as soon as they get around to it. So you get an early preview and there are Videos to watch as well....keep an eye out for the links in the review (you may have to cut and paste em).
> 
> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Asx_Hxo4gvfkkAb7xUCJBbdp3MAD
> 
> I think the link above should take you to the review...enjoy.


Thank you for this. Excellent review and answered all my questions, including my concerns over popcorning. Truly an exciting grinder.


----------



## 4085

Well, thats that then! I guess I will see a lot of you in the queue at 12 noon Monday........and dave, what a superb review. Anyone who knows you as I do, knows that you hate commercial influences. You say things as you see them and all the nay sayers who think you are in the pocket of the company you are reviewing for, well, I hope they choke on their cornflakes!


----------



## Tufty_B

A very thorough review by Dave - Thanks.

Performance wise the grinder appears to be an excellent value for money grinder.

It all really depends if anyone is looking at a new grinder in about a year's time and you don't mind the risks associated of crowd sourcing. My experience of crowd sourcing has shown me that products created by passionate people and manufactured in the UK are more likely to deliver than those products where production is in the far east, in the main due to the difficulty in managing facilities remotely and the time it takes to ship pre-production items around the world.

If I was looking at purchasing a grinder I would certainly consider this, however I'm not and I'd urge anyone that is interested to do additional checks on the creator to ensure that they are happy with the risk & potential product.

Thanks again Dave.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Truly thorough and comprehensive review. Great work @DavecUK!


----------



## Syenitic

DavecUK said:


> I reposted the above to remind anyone about Sunday. As for the review it's done. I've permission to post a link here and Niche will be sending links and hosting on their website as soon as they get around to it. So you get an early preview and there are Videos to watch as well....keep an eye out for the links in the review (you may have to cut and paste em).
> 
> https://1drv.ms/b/s!Asx_Hxo4gvfkkAb7xUCJBbdp3MAD
> 
> I think the link above should take you to the review...enjoy.


Ha, you have just flummoxed my newly acquired VPN sevice with the URL above, or at least the DNS servers I am pointing it to.

Time to suspend the VPN and go 'Into the white' as the Pixies once said.

Looking forward to this.

Thank you Dave.


----------



## u2jewel

Writing 17 pages of good stuff is hard, but surely, resisting the urge and calming the excitement to share/leak your almost unbelievable findings was harder!

I liked, appreciated, enjoyed and learned a lot from your review. Thank you very much ☺

Curiosity was killing the cat but was worth the wait. Onto the next wait, Monday..

Dave, I know you said that you don't do grinder reviews anymore, but just in case you might, how's this for an idea? To get accurate exchange data, how about using Grindz? Would that not work? The 2 contrasting colours, the brown of Coffee and bright yellow of Grindz would tell you how much cross contamination there is from how much/how many grinds ago. Maybe analyze it at a % blend? (it is coffee )

I know, wasteful coffee, but in the name of science! Spanking clean grinder, keep dosing Grindz until dose variance/output settles down, then switch over to coffee, recording all data from here onwards. Consistent dose per grind, see how many coffee grinds/doses it takes to see no more Grindz, you could get a visual feel to how steeply, linearly or Curvedly (is there such a word) exchange takes place.

And then just to shut up the non believes, do the opposite. Clean grinder, put through a few doses of Coffee... Etc.. Average the 2 inverted sessions.

Once again, thanks for the review!


----------



## 7493

Excellent review! Thank you once again Dave. I have a couple of products you have reviewed in the past and I agree with everything you said about them. I see no reason why the same will not be the case here. For anyone who wants a single dose grinder and is prepared to wait some time to get it this looks like a no brainer.


----------



## DavecUK

u2jewel said:


> Dave, I know you said that you don't do grinder reviews anymore, but just in case you might, how's this for an idea? To get accurate exchange data, how about using Grindz? Would that not work?


I'll still review anything if it's interesting and looks to be worth my time....so much stuff isn't. I've already refused to review the Allio Bullet and a few other "popular" products

As for exchange, it's a tricky one, as soon as you start using something like grinds...it's not coffee. We would have no way of being sure it's behaving like coffee, sticks like coffee or retains like coffee. Given the nature and effects desired from grinds, I would have thought it very unlikely, as it's a cleaning product.

By dusting the chamber floor with flour and reassembling carefully (on this conical), I was able to add minimal weight 0.05g or volume, but had high visibility. I could keep on grinding coffee and be pretty sure the flour wasn't affecting anything. If anything the method slightly over estimates exchange, but I'd rather do that than under estimate it. For years it has just frustrated me at some of the terms used on the internet especially the almost abuse of the term retention. Plus some of the beliefs some people on forums all over the world have expressed about their grinders performance with regard to dose consistency, exchange and retention....without properly measuring it.

The design of the Niche not only enabled good measurements, but also what we really all seek, low exchange and great dose consistency. The fact it retains at most 0.7g is almost not relevant. The only relevance of low retention, is that you don't get a gradual build up, then a big lump falling out!


----------



## Rhys

Excellent review, and I can't see it not being published.


----------



## u2jewel

The identical 17 page review is now up on Niches website


----------



## u2jewel

Sorry if asked already elsewhere.. if anyone knows.. Is it inc or ex VAT?


----------



## DavecUK

u2jewel said:


> Sorry if asked already elsewhere.. if anyone knows.. Is it inc or ex VAT?


Seeing as it is intended as a domestic product, I can't see it being ex VAT.


----------



## Dylan

Indiegogo is inc VAT.

Cheers for the review Dave, excellent and very thorough.


----------



## igm45

@DavecUK, in the cup how did it compare to the super expensive conical such as your e92?


----------



## Nopapercup

Great review Dave!

This may have been covered before so apologies if it has. Is there any protection if we purchase one of these on Monday? Expected delivery is 10 months away so what happens if things don't work out for Niche in the meantime? I hope all goes to plan as it sounds great.


----------



## DavecUK

igm45 said:


> @DavecUK, in the cup how did it compare to the super expensive conical such as your e92?


Sadly any difference was probably my rose tinted glasses and the fact my grinder costs £2K, so it had to be better didn't it.......In reality, the Niche performs just as well....but I bought my E92 because there was no other big conical that I could single dose at the time, it was also the smallest big conical I could get.

I meant what I said, it really is a game changer...the big problem is it seems unbelievable....I still don't believe it and yet there is sits in my kitchen pumping out grind after excellent grind. I used my E92 for some comparisons and to try it with the naked portafilter again and realised the E92 dose consistency made it so hard with the naked single. After that, I have only used the Niche and will continue to do so until it goes back....out of choice, because it's good, it's easy and I'm lazy..

When I eventually get one, I can then happily take up @MWJB offer of an insulated bodum press pot and explore more brewed coffee. He offered me it and I took it intending to use it later, then realised, it's not even a proposition with my E92, takes too long to adjust to brewed and then back, like 10 minutes and screwdrivers.


----------



## DavecUK

Nopapercup said:


> Great review Dave!
> 
> This may have been covered before so apologies if it has. Is there any protection if we purchase one of these on Monday? Expected delivery is 10 months away so what happens if things don't work out for Niche in the meantime? I hope all goes to plan as it sounds great.


I know nothing about crowd funding, probably best ask someone versed in all this stuff. I reviewed the grinder, not the human, although the human seemed sensible enough for me to invest 2 weeks of my time, which to me is worth many times the cost of that grinder!!


----------



## Dylan

Nopapercup said:


> Great review Dave!
> 
> This may have been covered before so apologies if it has. Is there any protection if we purchase one of these on Monday? Expected delivery is 10 months away so what happens if things don't work out for Niche in the meantime? I hope all goes to plan as it sounds great.


Best to read the Indiegogo T&C.

But the likely answer is 'no - not unless the manufacturer chooses to back their own product and provide one' (which does happen regularly with reputable campaigns. In fact some companies genuinely see their backers as people who helped found the company, and treat them very well because of this. But this is only the successful ones)

The product is a 'reward' for backing the campaign - you are not required to provide a warranty for a gift given as a reward.

The whole crowdfunding this kindof exists in this weird loophole where everyone knows they think they are 'purchasing' something but none of the regular consumer protections exist because of what the money is classified as.


----------



## igm45

DavecUK said:


> Sadly any difference was probably my rose tinted glasses and the fact my grinder costs £2K, so it had to be better didn't it.......In reality, the Niche performs just as well....but I bought my E92 because there was no other big conical that I could single dose at the time, it was also the smallest big conical I could get.
> 
> I meant what I said, it really is a game changer...the big problem is it seems unbelievable....I still don't believe it and yet there is sits in my kitchen pumping out grind after excellent grind. I used my E92 for some comparisons and to try it with the naked portafilter again and realised the E92 dose consistency made it so hard with the naked single. After that, I have only used the Niche and will continue to do so until it goes back....out of choice, because it's good, it's easy and I'm lazy..
> 
> When I eventually get one, I can then happily take up @MWJB offer of an insulated bodum press pot and explore more brewed coffee. He offered me it and I took it intending to use it later, then realised, it's not even a proposition with my E92, takes too long to adjust to brewed and then back, like 10 minutes and screwdrivers.


Thank you,

Great review, I shant be buying one as I'm very happy with my HG-1, just been following with interest as it seems to be a unique product. If they developed a flat burr in the future that would be a different story...

Amazing line of grind consistency vs the e92. So will the e92 be sold on then?

I'm genuinely pleased a game changer is on the scene as it will help push other manufacturers forwards and we, the consumers are the real winners.


----------



## Nopapercup

Dylan said:


> Best to read the Indiegogo T&C.
> 
> But the likely answer is 'no - not unless the manufacturer chooses to back their own product and provide one' (which does happen regularly with reputable campaigns. In fact some companies genuinely see their backers as people who helped found the company, and treat them very well because of this. But this is only the successful ones)
> 
> The product is a 'reward' for backing the campaign - you are not required to provide a warranty for a gift given as a reward.
> 
> The whole crowdfunding this kindof exists in this weird loophole where everyone knows they think they are 'purchasing' something but none of the regular consumer protections exist because of what the money is classified as.


I kind of thought this might be the case, so for taking a punt now for a product that hasn't gone past prototype with no warranty or guarantee of delivery you save up to 30% off of estimated sale price.


----------



## Dylan

Nopapercup said:


> I kind of thought this might be the case, so for taking a punt now for a product that hasn't gone past prototype with no warranty or guarantee of delivery you save up to 30% off of estimated sale price.


And the warm fuzzy feeling of investing in an upstart company and seeing them bring a product to market! (Don't forget this, its the reason you put your money down after all!)


----------



## Nopapercup

Dylan said:


> And the warm fuzzy feeling of investing in an upstart company and seeing them bring a product to market! (Don't forget this, its the reason you put your money down after all!)


That's what it is and I genuinely want these guys to do well. I wonder how many will part with their money for a warm fuzzy feeling? I'm genuinely thinking about it as I want a new grinder the Niche sounds amazing and I could wait but it's high risk and not an investment.


----------



## DavecUK

igm45 said:


> Thank you,
> 
> Great review, I shant be buying one as I'm very happy with my HG-1, just been following with interest as it seems to be a unique product. If they developed a flat burr in the future that would be a different story...
> 
> Amazing line of grind consistency vs the e92. So will the e92 be sold on then?
> 
> I'm genuinely pleased a game changer is on the scene as it will help push other manufacturers forwards and we, the consumers are the real winners.


Like a lot of my other stuff, the E92 will go into it's box and back in my workshop, probably to sit for a few years while I agonise over it...before it gets sold. Much like the other few things I have sold, R58, Gene Cafe, Quest M3, Verona, CBR 1200, Toper Cafemino Mazzer Mini E etc... I still have my old Duetto though, but won't be selling that...number 00001 and all. Funnily enough I sort of regret almost every sale.....but at least they all went to deserving people (forum members).

I once lusted after an HG1, I was so tempted by the one for sale on the forum a while ago. It was after I watched a lot of Videos on YouTube, I got a bit put off them, seemed more work than I was ready for....although they look fantastic don't they.


----------



## igm45

DavecUK said:


> Like a lot of my other stuff, the E92 will go into it's box and back in my workshop, probably to sit for a few years while I agonise over it...before it gets sold. Much like the other few things I have sold, R58, Gene Cafe, Quest M3, Verona, CBR 1200, Toper Cafemino Mazzer Mini E etc... I still have my old Duetto though, but won't be selling that...number 00001 and all. Funnily enough I sort of regret almost every sale.....but at least they all went to deserving people (forum members).
> 
> I once lusted after an HG1, I was so tempted by the one for sale on the forum a while ago. It was after I watched a lot of Videos on YouTube, I got a bit put off them, seemed more work than I was ready for....although they look fantastic don't they.


I won't deny it's not right for everyone.

As I'm the only coffee drinker in the house it works for me and my work flow.


----------



## DavecUK

Nopapercup said:


> That's what it is and I genuinely want these guys to do well. I wonder how many will part with their money for a warm fuzzy feeling? I'm genuinely thinking about it as I want a new grinder the Niche sounds amazing and I could wait but it's high risk and not an investment.


I hope a lot do fund it because it would be a real loss if this grinder doesn't get funded. Finally coffee lovers are presented with a properly designed grinder for the home environment, not some commercial beast and it's a giant killer! It's also a British company....

I'm just thinking about how handy it will be to cup roast samples pulled from my Dalian Amazon. I pull 4 or 5 small samples (multiples) up to end of roast. each one is around 8-10g and the Niche will be really handy to grind em out, my pestle and mortar isn't really good enough. That cupping then allows me normally to hit the roast sweet spot after only 1 kg.


----------



## Nopapercup

DavecUK said:


> I hope a lot do fund it because it would be a real loss if this grinder doesn't get funded. Finally coffee lovers are presented with a properly designed grinder for the home environment, not some commercial beast and it's a giant killer! It's also a British company....
> 
> I'm just thinking about how handy it will be to cup roast samples pulled from my Dalian Amazon. I pull 4 or 5 small samples (multiples) up to end of roast. each one is around 8-10g and the Niche will be really handy to grind em out, my pestle and mortar isn't really good enough. That cupping then allows me normally to hit the roast sweet spot after only 1 kg.


I agree Dave, my concern, is this the best way to raise money for a new venture? It sounds like the cheapest way to raise money and amazing for startups if it works. They don't have to give any of their company away to investors or convince a bank to lend them money/more money. Sceptically I'm not sure enough people will give Niche £350.

I'm playing Devils Advocate here and like everyone on this forum I genuinely hope they are able to deliver this grinder and are hugely successful in the process.


----------



## willardcw4

If I lived in Europe I would jump in on the indiegogo. I have the same concerns about warranty (which is why I didn't back the Anza Espresso machine in the US), but I think this grinder is such a game-changer for home espresso. I also would like a different color other that white... I'm sincerely hoping this grinder gets good press and takes off during the campaign. I would absolutely love to see Niche become a popular home grinder if the performance and durability are sustained.


----------



## thebookfreak58

How is the alignment of the grinder?


----------



## Kman10

I hope this does make it to market as it would suit me perfectly, I'm the only coffee drinker in my house and only occasionally make more than one drink at a time


----------



## timmyjj21

*Sigh*.... No postage to Australia...but it's just a box! If it can get to the US, surely it can get anywhere?


----------



## Daanvand

What a great written review DavecUK, looks te be a really fine grinder for the price.

Big chance i will back it on Indiegogo.


----------



## haz_pro

Fantastic review, especially liked the inclusion of the videos.

Although my inpatience is telling me not to back, I may well do any way as it seems like the perfect grinder for my home. We'll see.


----------



## Beeroclock

Yes agree - very well thought out and thorough review - qudos to you Dave. I too will most likely back this as it is exactly the sort of grinder I'm looking for...


----------



## Dylan

Indiegogo projects do not need to reach their goal to 'succeed' (or it is at least an option for creators to have it this way), it may well be why Niche has chosen Indiegogo as they are planning to bring it to market regardless.

Indiegogo provides the first run of cash infusion, and provides a base for companies to then ask the bank or investors for more, and at a likely better rate than if they had no evidence of existing public backing.

It shows not only that your product is popular and marketed well, but that people are prepared to stump up cash for it merely on the promise of what it will be.

I don't think many Indiegogo or KS projects actually make it to market solely off the back of their initial funding.

I basically wouldn't worry too much about it not making it to market, it looks like it has come far too far for that to be much of a possibility.


----------



## DavecUK

Oh I did a quick couple of double naked basket shots this morning, first 2 I have tried with this particular tricky El Salvador coffee.. These are the first 2 attempts, I think I can improve with a little more fine tuning.....and bigger cups! no special prep, grind, and quick tamp...no prayers to the coffee gods.


----------



## u2jewel

Dave

Just watched the naked double YouTube. If I may...

Double sided sticky tape, attach mobile phone to forehead. Assuming it's a mobile. Packaging tape rolled into a loop inside out works well too.

You look ridiculous from 3rd party, but it takes great pov vids. No one needs to see or know. However, if you are image conscious, don't get caught on camera by the reflection on the shiny machine!


----------



## DavecUK

u2jewel said:


> Dave
> 
> Just watched the naked double YouTube. If I may...
> 
> Double sided sticky tape, attach mobile phone to forehead. Assuming it's a mobile. Packaging tape rolled into a loop inside out works well too.
> 
> You look ridiculous from 3rd party, but it takes great pov vids. No one needs to see or know. However, if you are image conscious, don't get caught on camera by the reflection on the shiny machine!


Ah, I was in a hurry, bad back, bad knees and the kitchen about to explode in a flurry of baking. It was one of those grab a camera and just get it done vids. No soft lights, sweet music, clean and roomy counter or hours of rehearsal.


----------



## u2jewel

Hehe.. It wasn't a criticism. Should have put in some smileys to indicate a light hearted joke 

Nice looking shot if was... I've bought a machine, awaiting delivery, don't have it with me yet but feeling upgraditis already. Man...


----------



## DavecUK

...


----------



## DavecUK

u2jewel said:


> Hehe.. It wasn't a criticism. Should have put in some smileys to indicate a light hearted joke
> 
> Nice looking shot if was... I've bought a machine, awaiting delivery, don't have it with me yet but feeling upgraditis already. Man...


I realised you were kidding, but don't worry about upgraditis...with the naked it's all about the grinder and *dose accuracy*. Vibe pump machines work probably better for Nakeds than rotaries. I've seen some lovely naked shots on gaggias and basic HX machines. The 2 shots I did were barley OK, I think if I did a few more I would nail it, but I ran out of bodum cups and with the crema, they really don't hold quite enough during the shot....well I suppose I could let the crema get right to the top. As you saw, they really settle after.

Tamping is only a problem if you have really bad technique, most of the faffing around, stirring and shaking and whatever, usually is down to the grinder, tamping technique can possible help a little, but it shouldn't be a big worry. I just bung it in, squash it down and pull the shot.


----------



## Nopapercup

Dylan said:


> Indiegogo projects do not need to reach their goal to 'succeed' (or it is at least an option for creators to have it this way), it may well be why Niche has chosen Indiegogo as they are planning to bring it to market regardless.
> 
> Indiegogo provides the first run of cash infusion, and provides a base for companies to then ask the bank or investors for more, and at a likely better rate than if they had no evidence of existing public backing.
> 
> It shows not only that your product is popular and marketed well, but that people are prepared to stump up cash for it merely on the promise of what it will be.
> 
> I don't think many Indiegogo or KS projects actually make it to market solely off the back of their initial funding.
> 
> I basically wouldn't worry too much about it not making it to market, it looks like it has come far too far for that to be much of a possibility.


Interesting. It's the first time I've come across Indiegogo or ever considered giving money to a crowd funding project. It would be good to know how much they need to raise to manufacture the grinder.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Nopapercup said:


> Interesting. It's the first time I've come across Indiegogo or ever considered giving money to a crowd funding project. It would be good to know how much they need to raise to manufacture the grinder.


It would , but i doubt you are going to find that out. This is the way of crowdfunding....I have been caught out once on a coffee product before . But this one has pedigree of people and a working model out there . I think as much as you can say with any crowd funding product , that this one looks like a goer.


----------



## Miketh

Having just come back from holidays to see this review makes me happy. Pretty much covers everything! Thanks DavecUK


----------



## StanBarista

Signed up to ask a question about the grinder. A promising game changer!

I am worried about the warranty, with it being new and all...

The Niche website says:

"6. What is your guarantee?We are strictly governed by the terms and conditions of Indiegogo Inc. For further details please see Indiegogo terms and conditions: (https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)."

I check the terms and there's nothing much on the product warranty except the follow...Is that basically a polite way of saying there is no warranty?

"No Warranty

Indiegogo has no fiduciary duty to any User. THE SERVICES ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT OR COURSE OF PERFORMANCE. USE OF THE SERVICES IS AT USER'S OWN RISK.

"


----------



## DavecUK

StanBarista said:


> Signed up to ask a question about the grinder. A promising game changer!
> 
> I am worried about the warranty, with it being new and all...
> 
> The Niche website says:
> 
> "6. What is your guarantee?We are strictly governed by the terms and conditions of Indiegogo Inc. For further details please see Indiegogo terms and conditions: (https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms)."
> 
> I check the terms and there's nothing much on the product warranty except the follow...Is that basically a polite way of saying there is no warranty?
> 
> "No Warranty
> 
> Indiegogo has no fiduciary duty to any User. THE SERVICES ARE PROVIDED ON AN "AS IS" AND "AS AVAILABLE" BASIS WITHOUT ANY WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING, WITHOUT LIMITATION, IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY OR FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, NONINFRINGEMENT OR COURSE OF PERFORMANCE. USE OF THE SERVICES IS AT USER'S OWN RISK.
> 
> "


It looks like a standard Indegogo disclaimer, otherwise indegogo would be directly responsible? If you are really concerned is that they will actually build/ship the first batch of grinders and then not support them if there are any problems? This is a question you should put directly to Niche. I am not sure anyone here could answer it.

From a personal perspective only....It would seem odd to not support the first batch of grinders shipped...as they would be unlikely to sell more and that would be that. This would not seem to be a very worthwhile or profitable process for them (or any company) to go through?


----------



## PPapa

DavecUK said:


> It looks like a standard Indegogo disclaimer, otherwise indegogo would be directly responsible? If you are really concerned is that they will actually build/ship the first batch of grinders and then not support them if there are any problems? This is a question you should put directly to Niche. I am not sure anyone here could answer it.
> 
> From a personal perspective only....It would seem odd to not support the first batch of grinders shipped...as they would be unlikely to sell more and that would be that. This would not seem to be a very worthwhile or profitable process for them (or any company) to go through?


For what it's worth, I sent them an email about the warranty on 28th of August. Haven't had heard from them yet.


----------



## 4085

If you bought a coffee machine, for example from a retailer and as a favour for some unknown reason, they discounted the price to you from £900 to £600, it is fair to presume that they would have little or no profit that would normally allow them to provide the warranty. This is why BB are often dearer than other firms as the warranty comes from them and not the manufacturer.

I would not expect a retail warranty from a trade type purchase, although since a grinder is an uncomplicated piece of kit, there is not an awful lot to go wrong, and I doubt a firm coming to the market would leave you in the lurch with the power of social media and the like


----------



## MikeBookham

I think that I need to be blunt here.

If anyone is concerned about a warranty on a crowd sourced campaign then it is not for them. In short there are no guarantees on any crowd funded project. However it would be in a creators interest to provide a follow up service if they are intending to continue to market a product after a campaign has completed, however not all creators/campaigns are run like that, some are just after a quick buck and it's is up to you to decide on the integrity of the creator and the product/service.

Therefore everyone needs to do their own research on this or any other product, service or investment before committing to it.


----------



## StanBarista

Thanks all, appreciate the different perspectives. I too have had assumed it's logical for the manufacturer to provide full support to the first batch/early adopters, but surprisingly could not find anything to confirm. Some of the lack of communication shown here also got me concerned (understand that they're busy with the launch and all but....). The discount is nice, but not quite nice enough to worth the risk for me. Maybe I am not their target group indeed...


----------



## Edward

It would take a long time for the grind retention in my mazzer mini to cost me the price of this grinder.

I won't be taking a chance on it, been burned on crowdfunding before. At least with Mazzer, Mahlkonig et. al, you know they'll be around in three years if you have problems. There's a good chance with this in three years you're stuck with a three hundred quid door stop.


----------



## 4085

Edward said:


> It would take a long time for the grind retention in my mazzer mini to cost me the price of this grinder.
> 
> I won't be taking a chance on it, been burned on crowdfunding before. At least with Mazzer, Mahlkonig et. al, you know they'll be around in three years if you have problems. There's a good chance with this in three years you're stuck with a three hundred quid door stop.


Qualify your rude answer please. Do you have inside knowledge? Have you even read the whole thread. General woffly crap comments like yours infuriate me


----------



## Rhys

MikeBookham said:


> I think that I need to be blunt here.
> 
> If anyone is concerned about a warranty on a crowd sourced campaign then it is not for them. In short there are no guarantees on any crowd funded project. However it would be in a creators interest to provide a follow up service if they are intending to continue to market a product after a campaign has completed, however not all creators/campaigns are run like that, some are just after a quick buck and it's is up to you to decide on the integrity of the creator and the product/service.
> 
> Therefore everyone needs to do their own research on this or any other product, service or investment before committing to it.


 @DavecUK You've had this stripped and replacement parts quoted so, would I be right in saying if this grinder failed in some way, then it would be easy to fix by the home user for minimal cost?

I've little doubt that some warranties aren't worth the paper they are printed on, and some are worth their weight in gold. With coffee machines and commercial grinders there won't be a lot of user-serviceable parts inside unless you actually know what you are doing! (I know some seriously clever people in their fields, but they couldn't put a shelf up to save their lives..)

The way I see it with this venture is that they've already put £250k of their own money into this so backing it for a reduced rate could be seen as a loss leader/selling at cost to get production rolling, and will be covered eventually in a given time from full retail prices? Usually mark-up on products is 50% anyway, so would still return a small profit at 30% off..?

From an email...



email from Niche said:


> Coffee lovers kept asking me for a quiet, well-made, easy to use, affordable, compact, single dose grinder, which delivered a wide range of grind types (espresso to filter drip) with minimal grind retention and a dose consistency of less than one bean (0.2g). In other words a grinder that was a pleasure to use and always delivered ultra-fresh ground coffee.
> 
> This is not easy to do I assure you, but *after 1000s of hours of painstaking R&D, 30 working prototypes and £250,000 of my own money *the design is ready for manufacture and the final prototypes have been exhaustively tested by independent experts.
> 
> At this stage I am now looking for backers to contribute to the project via Indiegogo. By backing this project you will demonstrate there is a market for this project and allow me to bring the Niche Zero Grinder to market.
> 
> I 100% believe in this project, I have relentlessly tested highly accurate prototypes for over a year now and have recently received very positive and highly detailed test reviews from independent experts. https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/reviews/
> 
> Nothing is guaranteed in life but I assure you that if this crowdfunding campaign is successful, then I will dedicate another year of my life to getting this game changing coffee grinder to market.
> 
> Better coffee needs this grinder - please help make the Niche Zero a reality.
> 
> Martin


----------



## Edward

There's no need to qualify it. It's pretty obvious stuff tbh. If the firm behind this campaign goes insolvent or fails within its first 5 years (as many small businesses do) acquiring replacement parts in the event of failure would be difficult.

If you find that upsetting or rude I'd say you're easily infuriated and you might have a tough time out there on the internet.


----------



## Mrboots2u

This thread is turning into a right pile of tosh , people joining to let us know they wont be buying one .

A complete lack of understanding of how crowd funding works .

I would suggest as others have , to go and look at the T and C for crowdfunding and make your own minds up.

Not having every little question answered on this forum by niche in no way equates to potential warranty or shelf life problems.

I can see why trade and manufacturers stay away from forums like this one , given the navel gazing and OCD that has taken place on this one . They just can't win.

You have a detailed review to read , models in the wild being tested, you have the info on the crowd sourcing page , I suggest people make their own mind up from here on in . Although given the internet age , this seems impossible for most people to do..


----------



## Edward

Mrboots2u said:


> This thread is turning into a right pile of tosh , people joining to let us know they wont be buying one .
> 
> A complete lack of understanding of how crowd funding works .
> 
> I would suggest as others have , to go and look at the T and C for crowdfunding and make your own minds up.
> 
> Not having every little question answered on this forum by niche in no way equates to potential warranty or shelf life problems.
> 
> I can see why trade and manufacturers stay away from forums like this one , given the navel gazing and OCD that has taken place on this one . They just can't win.
> 
> You have a detailed review to read , models in the wild being tested, you have the info on the crowd sourcing page , I suggest people make their own mind up from here on in . Although given the internet age , this seems impossible for most people to do..


I'd be wary of implying that only positive comments are acceptable.

Nobody is demanding that laconic, positive comments signalling an intention to buy are to be qualified, justified or explained.

As regards doing your own research, if everyone were to search, read, evaluate and decide without once discussing or voicing their view or intentions, this forum would be a pretty quiet place no?

I've made my own mind up, and I've decided that while the product looks interesting, innovative and looks to address issues normally targeted by much more expensive manufacturers, the price is more than I am willing to gamble. (And it is a gamble, however much you dress the window)

FWIW I really want this product to succeed. Perhaps not so much that I wouldn't care what happened to my 300 quid, but still - the idea of a UK made grinder which provides uniform, low waste grinding is exciting to me and I genuinely wish them all the best.

My mazzer mini cost me 300 pounds around 10 years ago. If a part fails today, about a decade later, it is quick and easy to remedy. This is important to me. As excited as I am about the idea of this grinder and how great it could be - the longevity I would expect of an appliance intended to replace the mazzer is more than I can confidently expect of any crowdfunded project prima facie.

If this viewpoint is invalid or unacceptable here by all means let me know.


----------



## Beeroclock

It's pretty obvious to me that some people here have been stung in the past backing crowdfunded projects and are leaving some of that bitter taste in their posts.

I however don't understand what the problem is - you have a chance to save it bit of money on a product and get an earlier release/version this carries some risk - if you don't like that idea fine...don't participate, but to judge future reliability/availability on pure conjecture is surely a bit unfair especially as the designer has gone to some lengths to get a fairly final prototype out to review with someone we "all" know.

Philip


----------



## DavecUK

Rhys said:


> @DavecUK You've had this stripped and replacement parts quoted so, would I be right in saying if this grinder failed in some way, then it would be easy to fix by the home user for minimal cost?


It's basically in the review, I asked about the sort of things I guessed might fail based on other grinders I've seen and heard about over the years, tried to get some costs. As far as the home user goes, it should be easy to fix because so few tools are required. I guess minimal cost is whatever someone sees as minimal.

I read what @Mrboots2u posted and I sympathise with his views, but it's a free world and people are free to pass judgement, as they do on many things. People are commenting on the company, on their perceived level of risk and the risk reward. *This forum has been lucky enough to get a glimpse (well more than a glimpse) and a heads up on what's really possible.* However, like I said before, I reviewed the grinder not the company but why would someone many years of real world product design experience (not a kid out of uni) go to all this trouble.....just to not produce it?


----------



## DavecUK

Edward said:


> It would take a long time for the grind retention in my mazzer mini to cost me the price of this grinder.
> 
> I won't be taking a chance on it, been burned on crowdfunding before. At least with Mazzer, Mahlkonig et. al, you know they'll be around in three years if you have problems. There's a good chance with this in three years you're stuck with a three hundred quid door stop.


Just absolutely had to answer this one, as I didn't cover it in my review, partly because of that crappy WLL retention video making me to sick to do so. If you use your grinder with the hopper you will have to purge around,5g-7g to be sure your into clean coffee (I know because I had one), blame the stupid grid in the outlet chute for that. If you mod for single dosing, you still can get it all out and have to purge around 3 -4 g. This is fact not conjecture. The only reason you may not is because you don't care, or can't taste the difference...which in itself is a valid reason for you. If you run with a hopper, the dose variance is such that you are likely to get more sink shots and it makes dialling in more difficult, this is also a fact and another cause of wasted coffee.

if you like to drink good coffee...which will cost in the region of 25-30 per Kilo, or 27-32 per Kilo if you buy 250g packets.A 20g double (most efficient way to minimise lost coffee due to purging), you get 50 shots per Kilo. Although you don't because *even if you only purge 3g between shots you will only get around 43 shots....and lose a minimum of 126g...or about 13% losses. This is £3.57 per Kilo of coffee drunk. So each year at 500g per week, thats nearly £100 per year wastage*


----------



## MikeBookham

Edward said:


> ...As regards doing your own research, if everyone were to search, read, evaluate and decide without once discussing or voicing their view or intentions, this forum would be a pretty quiet place no?
> 
> If this viewpoint is invalid or unacceptable here by all means let me know.


I may be mistaken but I don't think anyone stated that discussion or opinions were not to be voiced and personally I haven't had any issue with any of your viewpoints.

I'd like to clarify why I have repeatedly asked people to do their own research, it's because it's obvious that by some comments on here that some people have made no attempt to look at how crowd funding works or it's benefits and risks and I'd like to re-iterate as Mrboots2u stated:



Mrboots2u said:


> ...A complete lack of understanding of how crowd funding works .
> 
> I would suggest as others have , to go and look at the T and C for crowdfunding and make your own minds up.
> 
> ...
> 
> ...
> 
> I suggest people make their own mind up from here on in . Although given the internet age , this seems impossible for most people to do..


----------



## Edward

DavecUK said:


> Just absolutely had to answer this one, as I didn't cover it in my review, partly because of that crappy WLL retention video making me to sick to do so. If you use your grinder with the hopper you will have to purge around,5g-7g to be sure your into clean coffee (I know because I had one), blame the stupid grid in the outlet chute for that. If you mod for single dosing, you still can get it all out and have to purge around 3 -4 g. This is fact not conjecture. The only reason you may not is because you don't care, or can't taste the difference...which in itself is a valid reason for you. If you run with a hopper, the dose variance is such that you are likely to get more sink shots and it makes dialling in more difficult, this is also a fact and another cause of wasted coffee.
> 
> if you like to drink good coffee...which will cost in the region of 25-30 per Kilo, or 27-32 per Kilo if you buy 250g packets.A 20g double (most efficient way to minimise lost coffee due to purging), you get 50 shots per Kilo. Although you don't because *even if you only purge 3g between shots you will only get around 43 shots....and lose a minimum of 126g...or about 13% losses. This is £3.57 per Kilo of coffee drunk. So each year at 500g per week, thats nearly £100 per year wastage*


All very valid stuff. Anyone who goes through 500g per week in espresso beans would definitely consider retention to be an expensive concern.

It's not quite such a big deal in my case, I don't pass anything even close to 500g per week through the mazzer.

These days my weekday morning coffee is almost always something nice and bright. made in the Kalita wave.

I used to use the Cherub every day but for the last couple of years heating up all that brass and steel just to pull a single shot feels wasteful. The mazzer and cherub get used when people visit, usually making 4/5 coffees at a time. In such cases the grinds lost to retention are spread out over 4/5 shots which are made in too quick succession for retention to be a concern.

Also given how infrequently I bother to do all this the bag of beans is usually bought expressly for the people coming over, in which case the retention issue for the first round of coffees is dealt with during the dialling in anyhow.

It's probably a perfectly reasonable assumption that most forumites here go through a half kilo a week in their espresso grinder, but it doesn't really apply to me.


----------



## Dylan

The idea of not backing a new company due to worries about their future applies to any company not very well established. It would apply to Decent for example, that has little to nothing to do with crowd funding or not. There are many examples in the tech world of people losing support for phones or smartwatches for example when a company goes bust/gets bought.

There is an obvious risk crowd funding project which has been pointed out over and over again on the past few pages. People are welcome to proclaim that risk is not for them by all means. Whenever my mates go to the casino i never join in as i have been burned to many times.

It certainly wouldn't hurt for Niche to make the warranty situation clear, as many crowd funding projects do this before a campaign starts. But if they choose not to then your investment must absolutely be on the basis of a (what i think is) small risk of getting nothing and the assumption it will have no warranty.


----------



## Edward

Well it would be nice to see a UK based major player in the grinder market for other reasons as well.

Not having to pay the cost of importing, supporting the local economy, fast postage etc. etc.


----------



## willardcw4

I really just wish there was a different color option....


----------



## jaffro

Like other have said, it would be awesome to have a UK player in the market and this does seem like an amazing opportunity, so I'm really supportive of this.

Think I'll probably jump on the Niche bandwagon, I'll be on the hunt for a grinder by the time it comes out anyway!


----------



## Beeroclock

I've been looking for one to replace my Mignon that isn't a behemoth and this will potentially be exactly what I'm looking for...


----------



## haz_pro

D-day... I'm still on the fence but have a reminder in my diary just incase I swayed.

Need to find a link to the indigogo, can't remember if I've seen one previously.


----------



## UncleJake

I'm not sure there is a link until it goes live.


----------



## haz_pro

Ah I see. I guess that makes sense!


----------



## DaveP

Just my 3 beans of thought (it was 2 beans but I'm allowing 1 for retention)

This machine is well worth a punt for the peeps that need a single dosing machine, but after a lot of soul searching and a lot of thought about my weekly average grinding requirements when visitors come to bother me, I want a hopper and maybe a timer (maybe weigh or judge the output rather than the input) and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

But hey.... this machine wasn't designed to cater to my needs, its catering for a *niche* market, so maybe the MKII will appeal to a wider audience as its only a small modification rather than a redesign.

So small I wonder if I ..... noooooooooooooooo, stop it.

So for that reason, I'm out.


----------



## jaffro

Beeroclock said:


> I've been looking for one to replace my Mignon that isn't a behemoth and this will potentially be exactly what I'm looking for...


Same here, I'm in a Mignon mk1 at the moment, which is decent, but I think this will replace it perfectly...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

For what's worth, I've shown it to my wife and she said she would not mind having this grinder in the kitchen









I really like it. Even more after the review.

Still deliberating what to at 12pm.


----------



## Mrboots2u

I can see the second hand mignon market deflating quickly in 12 months...


----------



## Jumbo Ratty

Mrboots2u said:


> I can see the second hand mignon market deflating quickly in 12 months...


If thats the case then all those massive utilitarian comercial grinders will be rendered worthless for the home user.


----------



## Rob1

I imagine cafes will still need them.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Jumbo Ratty said:


> If thats the case then all those massive utilitarian comercial grinders will be rendered worthless.


Nah ,size is important to alot of people ....


----------



## jlarkin

haz_pro said:


> D-day... I'm still on the fence but have a reminder in my diary just incase I swayed.
> 
> Need to find a link to the indigogo, can't remember if I've seen one previously.





UncleJake said:


> I'm not sure there is a link until it goes live.


They sent the link by email but it's not active until midday: http://nichecoffee.us13.list-manage2.com/track/click?u=4f13a465a475f8252cf82b797&id=9129555b59&e=9804a93a86


----------



## haz_pro

Link is live... still on the fence!


----------



## Dayks

Just backed it, looks good and DaveC's review helped.

Edit:

50 available at £350 with £10 shipping within UK.


----------



## PPapa

Got two of my cards rejected by Indiegogo. I guess I don't need it then...


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

likewise it wont accept my credit cards either..


----------



## haz_pro

Payment failed 3 times... nevermind.


----------



## UncleJake

Yup. Tried three different cards.


----------



## adz313

Watching this with interest - timing isn't right for me, but it's a certainly a product I would have looked at had it been out when I was buying, so hopefully it's successful.

I might be ready next year once they're out, especially if the case colour options broaden.

I note the Indiegogo site is stating it's a fixed goal - i.e. only gets funds if it hits target, rather than their other model of receiving whatever funds are raised regardless of goal.


----------



## haz_pro

Speaking to Niche on facebook - "We are in discussion with Indiegogo now trying to get this sorted. Sorry for any convenience."


----------



## mctrials23

Tried credit cards as well and all got rejected too.


----------



## AliG

PPapa said:


> Got two of my cards rejected by Indiegogo. I guess I don't need it then...


ditto. Well, ditto on the rejected cards. I still obviously need it.


----------



## jaffro

Took me several attempts, but I've got through. Guessing it was an issue with the site.


----------



## Deejaysuave

21 claimed on the 50x £350 deal now


----------



## haz_pro

Got there in the end.


----------



## PPapa

Finally worked. Backed up.



Mrboots2u said:


> I can see the second hand mignon market deflating quickly in 12 months...


You might see this monster popping up on sale as well.


----------



## UncleJake

jaffro said:


> Took me several attempts, but I've got through. Guessing it was an issue with the site.


Me too.


----------



## slamm

Looks like I'm backer #2!









Goal is £50,000 in one month.. tooling starts in November, production March 2018 and fulfilment June 2018.

30 of the 50 grinders left at £350 + shipping.


----------



## Rob1

23 minutes in and 35 sold.


----------



## LukeT

Backed here too. 3 or 4 rejected attempts as a guest so I signed up with a proper log in and that seemed to sort it.

Really I should need a grinder much sooner but I figured I can buy something really old and resell it next year. I haven't picked up an espresso machine yet...


----------



## Deejaysuave

When is payment taken?


----------



## mctrials23

Managed to get it to work by changing to Safari from Chrome. No idea why that worked but if others are struggling it might help.


----------



## Dayks

Only 5 left at £350

Already a third of the way there.


----------



## Talk_Coffee

I'm in!

Looking forward to watching this one and seeing what it can do!


----------



## Grahamg

I had to try a few times.

I think the only thing I did differently in the end was to leave out the space in my postcode for card details.


----------



## Dayks

Did mine through the app (already had an account but not backed on indiegogo before) and had no issues, accepted my card first time.


----------



## 4085

I had all sorts of issues, culminating in me backing it 3 times! Trying to contact Indiegogo now to sort out!


----------



## Edward

dfk41 said:


> I had all sorts of issues, culminating in me backing it 3 times! Trying to contact Indiegogo now to sort out!


Stay in for three, sell two to cover the one you keep ;-)


----------



## DavecUK

I think the very early bird ones all went in under 30 minutes (allowing for Indegogo update time). That's quite impressive.....just keep your fingers crossed that it meets it's target.


----------



## lake_m

Sold out of the £350 deal.


----------



## lennshow66

Didn't manage to get one sadly


----------



## PPapa

lennshow66 said:


> Didn't manage to get one sadly


There are £400 ones, still


----------



## Deejaysuave

DavecUK said:


> I think the very early bird ones all went in under 30 minutes (allowing for Indegogo update time). That's quite impressive.....just keep your fingers crossed that it meets it's target.


Yeah, now the real test to see if people are willing to pay the £400 and above prices..


----------



## DavecUK

Deejaysuave said:


> Yeah, now the real test to see if people are willing to pay the £400 and above prices..


I can't see why not, in the domestic environment, t spanks any £800 grinder I ever used and is no doubt as good as a £1200 grinder I could mention.


----------



## AliG

The payment issues indiegogo were having mean I missed out. Quite frustrating, as I'd set an alarm to be able to back it in time. Ah well.


----------



## Sigh

I tried about 20 times before I managed to pay, but backing from Denmark.


----------



## cjbailey1

I attempted quite a few times and eventually it went through - I changed the capitalisation of my postcode (as per their instructions) but I don't know if that was what did it or not... Still, managed to get in on the £350 level, although it's frustrating to have to spend the £10 on postage as my friend literally lives round the corner from the stated address...


----------



## jlarkin

dfk41 said:


> I had all sorts of issues, culminating in me backing it 3 times! Trying to contact Indiegogo now to sort out!


 @dfk41 - did you back it 3 times at £350?? Sorry if this was already covered but if yes, I'd happily give you the money for one. All I got was error codes and then it sold out at that price.


----------



## lennshow66

PPapa said:


> There are £400 ones, still


It'll annoy me that I could've saved £50 if I was a few mins earlier. £400 is still a good deal if it delivers


----------



## DavecUK

lennshow66 said:


> It'll annoy me that I could've saved £50 if I was a few mins earlier. £400 is still a good deal if it delivers


There was only 50 at that price, I would guess loads of people missed out.


----------



## LukeT

dfk41 said:


> I had all sorts of issues, culminating in me backing it 3 times! Trying to contact Indiegogo now to sort out!


Oops. Not entirely certain I didn't do the same thing........

Edit: only one confirmation email so I don't think I did.

How did you manage to pay 3 times?!


----------



## MikeBookham

LukeT said:


> Oops. Not entirely certain I didn't do the same thing........
> 
> Edit: only one confirmation email so I don't think I did.
> 
> How did you manage to pay 3 times?!


If you log onto the Indiegogo website then you can check your order to see how many you ordered, however the Android app doesn't appear to have that order info.

Though if you look at the contribution list does it show your order(s) with your account names or just anonymous if you chose not to show your name?


----------



## Dark Sumatra

Does anyone know what price it is yet?


----------



## Dark Sumatra

????


----------



## khampal

Dark Sumatra said:


> Does anyone know what price it is yet?


£350 for the first 50 (all gone now), £400 for the next 150, £450 for the next 200 and finally £500 RRP - if that's what you were asking


----------



## Rakesh

Seems like it has nothing to combat popcorning, but other than that it looks like a good grinder, when people start to receive theirs we will only then understand its real capabilities.


----------



## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> Seems like it has nothing to combat popcorning, but other than that it looks like a good grinder, when people start to receive theirs we will only then understand its real capabilities.


Seems like I wasted my time then!


----------



## Rakesh

DavecUK said:


> Seems like I wasted my time then!


Your write up on it was brilliant, although when combined with SB machines without pressure profiling, pre infusion and all the fanciness of the Vesuvius perhaps grind inconsistency becomes more apparent? The npf shots you did looked very good. No doubt it is going to be a very good grinder, for the price its probably going to be a bit of a game changer, but when all the owners can collate their experiences with it after a while perhaps that is the only time we can reach a general consensus as to where it sits with current grinders.

Perhaps i'm just chatting shite though, after all i've not nearly as much experience as you.


----------



## khampal

Rakesh said:


> Seems like it has nothing to combat popcorning, but other than that it looks like a good grinder, when people start to receive theirs we will only then understand its real capabilities.


The grinder has a low RPM, that's what helps minimise popcorning

Edit: 330rpm on the Niche (according to the review) vs 1350-1450rpm on a typical grinder (and 420rpm on the robur)


----------



## 4085

jlarkin said:


> @dfk41 - did you back it 3 times at £350?? Sorry if this was already covered but if yes, I'd happily give you the money for one. All I got was error codes and then it sold out at that price.


Joe, will pm you


----------



## 4085

LukeT said:


> Oops. Not entirely certain I didn't do the same thing........
> 
> Edit: only one confirmation email so I don't think I did.
> 
> How did you manage to pay 3 times?!


I had to transfer some money over!


----------



## Asgross

Ive just seen on website:-

" fixed funding. Campaign must hit their goal to receive funds"

Does this mean if they don't reach £50,000, we get our money back?


----------



## MWJB

Rakesh said:


> Your write up on it was brilliant, although when combined with SB machines without pressure profiling, pre infusion and all the fanciness of the Vesuvius perhaps grind inconsistency becomes more apparent? The npf shots you did looked very good. No doubt it is going to be a very good grinder, for the price its probably going to be a bit of a game changer, but when all the owners can collate their experiences with it after a while perhaps that is the only time we can reach a general consensus as to where it sits with current grinders.


How does espresso machine pressure profiling affect grind consistency?

What is the grind 'inconsistency' to which you refer (which equally affects all single-dosed, pop-corning, gravity fed grinders, some of which a re 4x the price of this one)?

Can I see the collated data for the existing similar grinders on this front please?


----------



## Rakesh

MWJB said:


> How does espresso machine pressure profiling affect grind consistency?
> 
> What is the grind 'inconsistency' to which you refer (which equally affects all single-dosed, pop-corning, gravity fed grinders, some of which a re 4x the price of this one)?
> 
> Can I see the collated data for the existing similar grinders on this front please?


I'm not slating the grinder as I've said, and there is a decent amount of info out their on the grinders currently on the market.

The grind inconsistency I was referring to is popcorning, the trade off I've found for single dosing commercials is that there is going to be some popcorning if weighing and grinding single doses. However this grinder is incapable of placing larger doses into the hopper in order to combat popcorning, so it will be a problem. Not a problem I'm really arsed about to be honest as I single dose my sj and know there is gonna be some inconsistencies due to the popcorning, but some may not be happy with it.

Espresso machine pressure profiling does not affect consistency, but I was under the impression being able to pre infuse a puck led to a better overall extraction with less channelling.

Like I said, Ive not nearly as much experience as those who have tried the machine.


----------



## lake_m

Very encouraging start. Go Niche! (Maybe they should have done a few more at £350. )


----------



## 4085

Rakesh said:


> I'm not slating the grinder as I've said, and there is a decent amount of info out their on the grinders currently on the market.
> 
> The grind inconsistency I was referring to is popcorning, the trade off I've found for single dosing commercials is that there is going to be some popcorning if weighing and grinding single doses. However this grinder is incapable of placing larger doses into the hopper in order to combat popcorning, so it will be a problem. Not a problem I'm really arsed about to be honest as I single dose my sj and know there is gonna be some inconsistencies due to the popcorning, but some may not be happy with it.
> 
> Espresso machine pressure profiling does not affect consistency, but I was under the impression being able to pre infuse a puck led to a better overall extraction with less channelling.
> 
> Like I said, Ive not nearly as much experience as those who have tried the machine.


have you read dave review matey? I think if he had found popcorning to be an issue he would have mentioned it! @DavecUK have you missed something!


----------



## MWJB

Rakesh said:


> I'm not slating the grinder as I've said, and there is a decent amount of info out their on the grinders currently on the market.
> 
> The grind inconsistency I was referring to is popcorning, the trade off I've found for single dosing commercials is that there is going to be some popcorning if weighing and grinding single doses. However this grinder is incapable of placing larger doses into the hopper in order to combat popcorning, so it will be a problem. Not a problem I'm really arsed about to be honest as I single dose my sj and know there is gonna be some inconsistencies due to the popcorning, but some may not be happy with it.
> 
> Espresso machine pressure profiling does not affect consistency, but I was under the impression being able to pre infuse a puck led to a better overall extraction with less channelling.
> 
> Like I said, Ive not nearly as much experience as those who have tried the machine.


I'm not sure that "inconsistencies" is the right phrase, a full hopper vs single dose may affect distribution/overall fineness of grind, but single dosed shots/grinds should be consistent. People make espresso with plenty of other single dosers & hand grinders.


----------



## Rakesh

dfk41 said:


> have you read dave review matey? I think if he had found popcorning to be an issue he would have mentioned it! @DavecUK have you missed something!


Perhaps I may have missed Daves review, would you be so kind as to link me to it? Or is it the write up he done on this thread?


----------



## Rakesh

MWJB said:


> I'm not sure that "inconsistencies" is the right phrase, a full hopper vs single dose may affect distribution/overall fineness of grind, but single dosed shots/grinds should be consistent. People make espresso with plenty of other single dosers & hand grinders.


Ah, I understand. My knowledge was at fault, I was under the impression popcorning led to inconsistencies in the grind.


----------



## 4085

Rakesh said:


> Perhaps I may have missed Daves review, would you be so kind as to link me to it? Or is it the write up he done on this thread?


post 234 on this thread


----------



## DavecUK

Rakesh said:


> I'm not slating the grinder as I've said, and there is a decent amount of info out their on the grinders currently on the market.
> 
> The grind inconsistency I was referring to is popcorning, the trade off I've found for single dosing commercials is that there is going to be some popcorning if weighing and grinding single doses. However this grinder is incapable of placing larger doses into the hopper in order to combat popcorning, so it will be a problem. Not a problem I'm really arsed about to be honest as I single dose my sj and know there is gonna be some inconsistencies due to the popcorning, but some may not be happy with it.
> 
> Espresso machine pressure profiling does not affect consistency, but I was under the impression being able to pre infuse a puck led to a better overall extraction with less channelling.
> 
> Like I said, Ive not nearly as much experience as those who have tried the machine.


There always will be some popcorning no matter how slow you go, even on my big ceado at 240rpm, but that's a function of beans being squeezed in the breaker zone and some popping out with a bit knocked off them. Never confuse this with the popcorning you see when a burr spins at 1400 rpm and is 64mm or more wide, those get smached a fly out with pulverisation as they drop back and pop out again and again. Throw a snowball no problem, hit one with your hand and it's different. The limited popcorning in a slow conical burr is not really a problem, because the physics is different.

In my pressure profiling machine, for the slow load up profiles with 12 sec preinfusion require a REALLY fine and good quality grind. As I have shown people many times, a shot fine enough to extract perfectly on my profile 3, will totally choke if I set my machine up as a standard 9 bar machine. If a grinder is inferior it will really show up. It's why in my Vesuvius review years ago I stated the absolute minimum grinder for that machine was Super Jolly Class, minimum, but something the quality of Ceado E37S, Mazzer Kony, Robur etc.. would get the best from it.

The extraction can be more flavourful, because the finer grind allows you to get everything and more than from a standard 9 bar machine.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?39577-Niche-Grinder&p=525539#post525539 my link to the review is here.


----------



## Sigh

@DaveC

What digital scale are you using in the review videos? It looks nice and easy to read.


----------



## Beeroclock

jlarkin said:


> @dfk41 - did you back it 3 times at £350?? Sorry if this was already covered but if yes, I'd happily give you the money for one. All I got was error codes and then it sold out at that price.


me too as I missed out flying back from Spain today and plane delayed...will pm you


----------



## DavecUK

Sigh said:


> @DaveC
> 
> What digital scale are you using in the review videos? It looks nice and easy to read.


https://www.amazon.co.uk/Smart-Weigh-Precision-Digital-Personal/dp/B018GQS4YI/ref=sr_1_125_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1504537013&sr=8-125&keywords=scale+0.01

Very good price and seems to work well.....my old one was only 0.1g resolution

or here for 8.99 inc postage from ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Smart-Weigh-High-Precision-Pocket-Digital-Scale-w-Carry-Case-100g-x-0-01g/302406156340?_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D1%26asc%3D20150313114020%26meid%3Da1e340612a334841862879c9fb384850%26pid%3D100338%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D11%26sd%3D222563544975&_trksid=p2141725.c100338.m3726


----------



## Sigh

Thanks!


----------



## steveholt

Backed, as a super early bird, with 4 failed payment attempts across the app and website.

I was backer 35 or so, at 12.22.

I hope this grinder lives up to expectations in a home setting.

I actually would not have considered it without the crowd finding + Davec review.

I'm content to wait 6 months for a 30% discount.

I don't care for oak though.


----------



## PPapa

steveholt said:


> I actually would not have considered it without the crowd finding + Davec review.


Ditto. It gave us quite a bit of confidence.


----------



## DavecUK

PPapa said:


> Ditto. It gave us quite a bit of confidence.


I sense my reputation (assuming I had one) riding on this one.....







soon to be 400 or 500 people seeing if I was right. DFK throwing beans dripping with oil into the grinder and some git slinging in raw green coffee to make enimas. God help me if it doesn't deal with both...at the same time.

P.S. obviously no one should try grinding raw green coffee


----------



## MalcolmH

I 'backed it' rather than 'Get this Perk' anyone know how I can change. Should have realised when p/p never showed up. I cant see how to reverse this.

Five hours later: My 'backing has now been refunded and Ive purchased a 'perk'. Happy days.


----------



## DavecUK

MalcolmH said:


> I 'backed it' rather than 'Get this Perk' anyone know how I can change. Should have realised when p/p never showed up. I cant see how to reverse this.


You know i saw early on someone had given like £100 or something silly and I wondered why they did this....was it you? it doesn't seem to be there now....I'd write to them tell them you bolloxed it up, perhaps thy will let you still have one at £350??, because if I remember rightly, you "backed it" quite early didn't you?


----------



## Tufty_B

Asgross said:


> Ive just seen on website:-
> 
> " fixed funding. Campaign must hit their goal to receive funds"
> 
> Does this mean if they don't reach £50,000, we get our money back?


The Niche is a fixed goal campaign so if it reaches its goal then the project will go ahead and you will have to pay , most projects on Indiegogo are flexible goals and in that instance you will pay no matter how well or badly the funding goes. I'd suggest that you have a look at the Indiegogo website to see how crowd funding works.


----------



## PPapa

DavecUK said:


> I sense my reputation (assuming I had one) riding on this one.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> soon to be 400 or 500 people seeing if I was right. DFK throwing beans dripping with oil into the grinder and some git slinging in raw green coffee to make enimas. God help me if it doesn't deal with both...at the same time.
> 
> P.S. obviously no one should try grinding raw green coffee


I think your expectations from a grinder are a lot higher than most from others.

I still have few questions...

* how easy it is to switch between two beans? I am juggling between few millimetres on my Santos, which definitely looks scientific when I turn the dial (lol).

* It looks like you can turn the grinder on while the lid is off, which possibly makes the grinder dangerous around kids (won't be a problem for me!). If not, then you couldn't tighten the grind without running the grinder (which is fraud upon due to the small chance of beans being stuck in between burrs). Any problems for that around certifications?


----------



## MalcolmH

DavecUK said:


> You know i saw early on someone had given like £100 or something silly and I wondered why they did this....was it you? it doesn't seem to be there now....I'd write to them tell them you bolloxed it up, perhaps thy will let you still have one at £350??, because if I remember rightly, you "backed it" quite early didn't you?


No, that wasnt me, I was out until about 3:30 so missed the initial offer. I mistakenly backed £400.00 about an hour ago. Ive written to Chris or Niche but they haven't answered.


----------



## DavecUK

PPapa said:


> I think your expectations from a grinder are a lot higher than most from others.
> 
> I still have few questions...
> 
> * how easy it is to switch between two beans? I am juggling between few millimetres on my Santos, which definitely looks scientific when I turn the dial (lol).
> 
> * It looks like you can turn the grinder on while the lid is off, which possibly makes the grinder dangerous around kids (won't be a problem for me!). If not, then you couldn't tighten the grind without running the grinder (which is fraud upon due to the small chance of beans being stuck in between burrs). Any problems for that around certifications?


It's very easy to dial in between 2 beans and conical burrs are quite forgiving. If 1 bean grind well at 1 mark and another at a different one, then moving between is not a problem. Have a look at my double basket IMS naked shot to see me dial it in on the fly, without knowing the exact setting I might need. A m,ovement of one mark (which is about 3 mm) is quite a small adjustment, often you need nealry 2 marks to see much difference. So there it's easy to make fine adjustments.






You cannot turn the grind on whilst the lid is off, there is a safety interlock

You don't have to run the grinder to tighten/coarsen the grind within the espresso range and way beyond.

In the coarse range *only when moving finer*, you might want to, *switch the switch on with the lid up*, turn the adjuster ring and when it starts to feel slightly stiff (10 to 15 marks), close the lid for 0.5 second (which will run the grinder), then open it and adjust again around 10-15 marks, close the lid and repeat. As soon as you get near the espresso grind level this is not necessary. This happens because with burrset A a little more of the larger particle size remains in the milling zone. At the finer grind levels the particles sizes are smaller an inconsequential when moving the burrs finer. This is purely a product of burr design and would happen (definitely) if single dosing a grinder like a Kony and trying to go finer after a coarse grind..


----------



## Beeroclock

DavecUK said:


> You know i saw early on someone had given like £100 or something silly and I wondered why they did this....was it you? it doesn't seem to be there now....I'd write to them tell them you bolloxed it up, perhaps thy will let you still have one at £350??, because if I remember rightly, you "backed it" quite early didn't you?


Err that was me by mistake - desperately trying to get in on the early early bird - phone kept losing signal at the airport - then had the same probs as others and missed out...?


----------



## haz_pro

48% backed... Really hope this reaches the goal.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Great videos on YouTube , this little box of tricks really does look as good as the manufacturers claim .

low retintion single dosing conical , what's not to like

One question ,is the motor brushed or brushless ?, sorry if you answered in your review .


----------



## DavecUK

Thecatlinux said:


> Great videos on YouTube , this little box of tricks really does look as good as the manufacturers claim .
> 
> low retintion single dosing conical , what's not to like
> 
> One question ,is the motor brushed or brushless ?, sorry if you answered in your review .


I believe it is a brushed permanent magnet DC motor....why do you ask?


----------



## Thecatlinux

DavecUK said:


> I believe it is a brushed permanent magnet DC motor....why do you ask?


Nothing but general curiosity , in my work I am starting to see brushless DC motors although not mainstream they are becoming a little more frequent .


----------



## 4085

It is amazing how this has slowed down! Even at £400 it is still an absolute bargain. I wonder what they are going to do in order to push it on a bit!


----------



## haz_pro

They've released their first update, asking people to share the indigogo link on social media etc... Unfortunately I don't think any of my 3 followers will be interested haha.


----------



## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> It is amazing how this has slowed down! Even at £400 it is still an absolute bargain. I wonder what they are going to do in order to push it on a bit!


I suspect there is not a lot they can do, as I have always said, the coffee community tends to get exactly what it want's (which is not always what it needs), if it's not backed, then I guess the community doesn't want it enough and prefers to use ex commercial cafe (or new commercial) grinders in the home?



Thecatlinux said:


> Nothing but general curiosity , in my work I am starting to see brushless DC motors although not mainstream they are becoming a little more frequent .


I think that's because they have huge advantages over brushed motors in certain applications, for one, no brushes to wear out, this is important if the motor is in operation 24x7 e.g. disk drives, medical equipment etc... Of course simple DC brushed permanent magnet motors have advantages in an item like a coffee grinder....where brush life is largely irrelevant in the domestic setting, simplicity of circuitry and the right torque characteristics are desired.

The average brushed motor has a brush life of 2000-5000 hours. A washing machine that uses brushed motors has a life of between 10-15 years max, normally the washing machine fails before the brushes wear out...but I did once replace the brushes on my parents 14 year old machine. They were about 80% worn...sadly the machine failed a year later due to a control board fault.

Doing the math: 2 hr wash cycle twice per week = 52 weeks *4 *10years = 2080 hours (usually brushes are not completely worn and failure due to other causes).

Niche grinder grinding 500g per week around 30s max to grind 20g (12.5 minutes grinding per week) = 52 weeks * 12.5 minutes * 10 years = *108 hours*

At a conservative motor brush life estimate of 2000 hours operation, the brushes would last 200 years. Even if you say well I use 1kg a week, that's still 100 years! Even if the manufacturers are wrong and brush life is 50% of what they think (e.g. 1000 minimum), that's still 50 and 25 years respectively. To put it in perspective 1000 hours is a motor that runs for 41 days.

Most of us have a brushed motor we all take for granted, rarely if ever need to replace them and these motors do 1000s of hours. Your car heater/cooling fan motor is brushed and in most cars I know is permanently running unless you turn the ventilation system off altogether and usually lasts the lifetime of the vehicle).


----------



## DavecUK

Just a thought, they ought to make the Independent review link a lot more prominent on Indegogo! You have to search a bit to find it.


----------



## lake_m

dfk41 said:


> It is amazing how this has slowed down! Even at £400 it is still an absolute bargain. I wonder what they are going to do in order to push it on a bit!


I was thinking the same. It's as though people have thought 'yes' at £350 and 'no' at £400.


----------



## u2jewel

There was an indigogo fundraising for a wallet I was following a while ago.

What I found attractive, cool and reassuring was that

A) the target goal was set very low - it felt as if there was nothing stopping this project getting green light (I think $3000?)

B) there were super early birds and early birds, but they structured it so that the higher the total amount backed, the more 'features' got unlocked. Like additional leather colours at next $5,000 reached.... Brass buckles option added at $7000 etc..

C) there was a matching keyring thrown in for everyone if $10,000 was reached.. (added motivation for spreading the word)

It would have been nice if such micro-step achievements were rewarded in this project too. There were plenty of ideas. Like colour option. Wood trim option, like oak, walnut etc. Option to buy additional SS cups. Option to colour match wood trim to the main body colour. Sell accessories bundles like matching colour brushes and grind cups. I'm not saying offer it for free. They can charge. And ask for more time. Yes, more headache and work, but it helps reach that goal for very minimal additional cost and work.


----------



## Deejaysuave

Only 17 of the 150 slots filled for the £400 offer, just doesn't seem achievable within a month!


----------



## lake_m

That's only a couple of hits per day for the rest of the month needed to make the target. Think positive!


----------



## MWJB

Deejaysuave said:


> Only 17 of the 150 slots filled for the £400 offer, just doesn't seem achievable within a month!


They don't need to fill 150 slots at £400 to make funding target, only 60 more.


----------



## Thecatlinux

I wasn't questioning brushed motors , and I totally agree with you in this application wear is not relevant with how little operation the motor will do .

a brushless motor in this instance would be overkill and would certainly bump the price up .

I do believe brushless to be what we will have in the future though, as there is less moving parts and with ever decreasing cost of the controllers they will be more common place as the cost of manufacturing will become cheaper (less assembly )

i wish I had need for this grinder as I would certainly buy one , great to see someone has recognised their is a demand for high quality grinders in the domestic market .


----------



## DavecUK

Thecatlinux said:


> I wasn't questioning brushed motors , and I totally agree with you in this application wear is not relevant with how little operation the motor will do .
> 
> a brushless motor in this instance would be overkill and would certainly bump the price up .
> 
> I do believe brushless to be what we will have in the future though, as there is less moving parts and with ever decreasing cost of the controllers they will be more common place as the cost of manufacturing will become cheaper (less assembly )
> 
> i wish I had need for this grinder as I would certainly buy one , great to see someone has recognised their is a demand for high quality grinders in the domestic market .


The reply was for other peoples benefit, not yours







, as they may not have your experience with motors, it was one of the first things I checked out, but for the reasons mentioned earlier, thought it all looked good.

As you say great that a manufacturer has realised the demand for a grinder like this in the commercial market....it's a pity the customers do not recognise the same!


----------



## Grahamg

I do think this is likely to be what most would describe as a slow burner project. A great product with the potential to sell far and wide but word of mouth will take a long time to spread.


----------



## timaldridge8

lake_m said:


> I was thinking the same. It's as though people have thought 'yes' at £350 and 'no' at £400.


That's me. I'd rather save up 'til June and pay £100 more. But at £350 I'd have gone for it.


----------



## 7493

Was going to take a punt at £350 but missed it. £400 too long to wait... Will now wait and see how it goes.


----------



## timmyjj21

Grahamg said:


> A great product with the potential to sell far and wide but word of mouth will take a long time to spread.


Its a shame they refused to send it far and wide. Now the momentum has stalled and overseas buyers will still have to sit and wait, like me.

I can understand that the UK and US markets would be the largest, but preventing a lot of coffee enthusiasts from even considering backing due to limited postage options probably wasnt the best decision.

Australia has no GST payable on goods under $1000AUD, so we wouldn't even have import duties, plus a box to the US would involve the same packaging as a box to Oz.


----------



## buzzramsey

Yep that was odd... Also there would been no Vat so it would have been much cheaper.


----------



## MikeBookham

I hope that this campaign is a success, however considering that the RRP will be £499, the reduced Indiegogo perks are not a fantastic saving especially considering the risk, delay and the fact that there is no warranty. With the stated RRP they'll be planning on making a tidy profit even at the £350 perk level, let alone any of the more expensive perk levels.


----------



## SteveR

It will be interesting to see if the business plan is reliant on the explicit crowd funding targets, or whether there are other investors. Crowd funding is a great way of market testing to de-risk an investment.


----------



## StanBarista

Yeah, it is odd they don't ship worldwide, considering they are also catering to USA which requires a very different spec!

There should be a sizable market for this grinder, especially if they can keep up the standard/durability of the prototype and still manage to keep the price @ £499. It will likely be the most recommended espresso grinder for home - considering how many Monoliths have sold in the past despite the price!

Dave has done an excellent job reviewing the grinder and created a demand for it. I think what held most people back are the risks and uncertainties. Of course, a bit more internet communication/presence would have helped immensely too, considering this is where they marketed! Right now, to the uneducated me, they are just a faceless nobody (sorry mate, we're too busy to talk to you - that was my impression honestly). Sadly.

Also, nobody has asked this. What about the electrical compliance and certificate? Is that of any importance that could delay the shipping?


----------



## DavecUK

MikeBookham said:


> I hope that this campaign is a success, however considering that the RRP will be £499, the reduced Indiegogo perks are not a fantastic saving especially considering the risk, delay and the fact that there is no warranty. With the stated RRP they'll be planning on making a tidy profit even at the £350 perk level, let alone any of the more expensive perk levels.


Ah....a tidy profit eh....so tooling up for production and associated costs is free then?

https://www.autodesk.com/redshift/manufacturing-costs-taking-your-idea-from-prototype-to-production/

Have a read.


----------



## haz_pro

Given how much money they've already put in, and the low target for the indigogo. I don't think they'll be making any profit for this first batch (but I do suck at math.)


----------



## MikeBookham

Nowhere did I started that the tooling, production and associated costs were free, obviously the Indiegogo campaign is to help fund that stage.

As stated by himself on the campaign page:

'Martin is an accomplished designer with over 30 years of industry and design experience. He has worked with a vast number of global companies, including; Kenwood, Phillips, Braun, Tefal, Bombay Sapphire, Anglepoise, Airbus, Russel Hobbs, AEG, Dualit, Sanyo and Sunbeam.

...

The ground-breaking Niche Zero Grinder is the result of significant self-funded investment; with 4 years of technical engineering, refinement and development, with over 30 prototypes.'

Therefore with the progress to date on the grinder and his experience of bringing products to market he will have a good grasp of the expected tooling and production costs.

Obviously Martin will have checked his production costs many times and ensured that the RRP will produce a good profit, otherwise the RRP would be higher.


----------



## DavecUK

MikeBookham said:


> Nowhere did I started that the tooling, production and associated costs were free, obviously the Indiegogo campaign is to help fund that stage.
> 
> Therefore with the progress to date on the grinder and his experience of bringing products to market he will have a good grasp of the expected tooling and production costs.
> 
> Obviously Martin will have checked his production costs many times and ensured that the RRP will produce a good profit, otherwise the RRP would be higher.


All valid points, so why would you say earlier that he would be making *a tidy profit at £350*, if you know all the above is true? Remember that's £150 below the RRP, even 400 is £100 below the RRP.

You even said help fund that stage (tooling production and associated costs)e, so you realise that it may not completely fund that stage and that his personal money may have to be added. I would be very surprised if he makes a single penny out of the first batch of grinders. You make your profits once production really gets going, not with your first batches.....that's the cost of breaking into a market with a new product.

I've always said the coffee consumer/prosumer always gets exactly what they want....unfortunately, it's not always what they need. Interestingly, almost all people who tell you what you want are making a living from coffee, in one form or another.


----------



## Dayks

Of course waiting for it to retail at £500, is chancy at this point as well, we don't know what will happen if the crowdfunding fails and it is not exactly unheard of for expected prices to rise.


----------



## DavecUK

Dayks said:


> Of course waiting for it to retail at £500, is chancy at this point as well, we don't know what will happen if the crowdfunding fails and it is not exactly unheard of for expected prices to rise.


If this doesn't get to market...*.it will be a huge loss to home users*. I've been using it for weeks now and I don't want to give it back (and mine is a only a prototype)!!!! I know I have to of course, but it's so good. Every naked shot has been perfect, dials in easy, once it's settled and used for a few days I'm getting 0.05 or less dose variance...It's unbelievable. usually all this new stuff is crap and I see a product like the Niche that's fantastic and I think my god if this doesn't come to market, what will we all have lost!


----------



## kruzilla

I'm dying to back this machine. I think someone already asked this but does anyone know if there will be some kind of warranty offered? I'm trying to talk my wife into letting me invest in this and it'd be a much easier sell if there was some great customer support like Baratza has.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Ah! but doesnt Baratza have great customer support through necessity  Sorry that was a cheap shot.


----------



## Syenitic

Seems there are now another 150 at the 30% off offering or £350? Or am I imagining things?


----------



## lake_m

That is correct - they've extended it.


----------



## PPapa

Syenitic said:


> Seems there are now another 150 at the 30% off offering or £350? Or am I imagining things?


No you aren't. I guess they realised people were less keen to pay £400.


----------



## DavecUK

Syenitic said:


> Seems there are now another 150 at the 30% off offering or £350? Or am I imagining things?


No your not imagining things!



TonyCoffeeNewbie said:


> Ah! but doesnt Baratza have great customer support through necessity  Sorry that was a cheap shot.


oh and I'll bet if I treated a Baratza like i treated the Niche...I'd have bust it!


----------



## AliG

Backed it. Thanks for the heads up, @Syenitic.


----------



## UncleJake

Those 21 £400 folk will be a little miffed.


----------



## Syenitic

AliG said:


> Backed it. Thanks for the heads up, @Syenitic.


np, getting close to doing the same myself!


----------



## Niche Coffee

It's been a bit of a breathless first 48 hours for the Niche Zero Indiegogo campaign.

We were over-whelmed to see how fast the first 50 units at £350 sold out (just 50 minutes after launch) and dismayed to learn that so many of you missed out.

After listening to your feedback, we have decided to release a further 150 units at £350 and also ship to Australia, so more people have a chance to buy at the original 30% discount.

We have personally emailed the existing £400 backers with a refund offer.

Link to campaign - https://igg.me/at/nichezerogrinder

So don't miss out on getting your Niche Zero in this exclusive deal!

The Niche Team


----------



## DavidBondy

More at £350 and shipping down-under ... I do hope that they meet their funding target.


----------



## eddie57

Damn got me thinking now decisions decisions heads hurting


----------



## haz_pro

Great news, hopefully this helps get the grinder to the target.


----------



## pj.walczak

Yes, great decision. And fair. Giving people 30% discount when they are buying something 10 months in advance is a wise choice. Looking at the rising number of backers now I am pretty sure the target will be meet pretty quickly I am very happy about this project, I think we really deserve a decent home espresso grinder in 2018


----------



## Russ

I'm in!

Hope it comes off otherwise I'm in trouble with my better half.......


----------



## DavecUK

UncleJake said:


> Those 21 £400 folk will be a little miffed.


I don't think so, I am sure they will sort them out. If it was me, I'd just contact them and deal with it fairly.


----------



## Mrboots2u

UncleJake said:


> Those 21 £400 folk will be a little miffed.


"We have personally emailed the existing £400 backers with a refund offer."


----------



## Beeroclock

I'm in too now....


----------



## ATZ

@DavecUK I've read your excellent review on the crowdfunding page, so I guess my question is, have you backed it?


----------



## Syenitic

Niche Coffee said:


> ... a further 150 units at £350 and also ship to Australia, so more people have a chance to buy at the original 30% discount.....
> 
> Link to campaign - https://igg.me/at/nichezerogrinder
> 
> The Niche Team


 @timmyjj21 - see above - new posting destination might be of interest to you!


----------



## MalcolmH

I got advance notice of the extended £350 perk (having bought the £400 option) and when I went onto the Niche crowdfunding page the refund option was there. I changed very quickly and seamlessly. Great job.


----------



## UncleJake

Mrboots2u said:


> "We have personally emailed the existing £400 backers with a refund offer."


Yup. You'll see I posted that before Niche's response. I was hoping that's what they'd do.


----------



## DavecUK

ATZ said:


> @DavecUK I've read your excellent review on the crowdfunding page, so I guess my question is, have you backed it?


No, because I ended up giving my fee to charity....so I shall save and wait and then buy it, so I don't tick off the missus. I am also hoping to get state of build grinders to test along the way to put through their paces, ensuring they are working well and robust as progress is made to full production and beyond I guess.

In a sense I've backed it enough for now....but I will definitely get one.


----------



## LukeT

I think they've made a good call on extending the 30% discount. To my mind you need around that level of perk to take the risk of investing in this way. I think they'll do it, which is why I backed it, but I don't think I'd feel the return was enough for the risk and time delay at 10% or perhaps even 20% below RRP. I could be wrong - we don't know their business model of course so we don't know how many more they have to sell this way to fund the production run, but 150 should make a big difference.

The very best of luck to them, this is a courageous thing to do.


----------



## DavecUK

LukeT said:


> I think they've made a good call on extending the 30% discount. To my mind you need around that level of perk to take the risk of investing in this way. I think they'll do it, which is why I backed it, but I don't think I'd feel the return was enough for the risk and time delay at 10% or perhaps even 20% below RRP. I could be wrong - we don't know their business model of course so we don't know how many more they have to sell this way to fund the production run, but 150 should make a big difference.
> 
> The very best of luck to them, this is a courageous thing to do.


It is and seeing it compelled me to make probably my last Vid with it. I'm still absolutely loving it and will miss it so much because of this, enjoy, because for those who backed it, in 10 months this will be you!


----------



## donblacc

DavecUK said:


> It is and seeing it compelled me to make probably my last Vid with it. I'm still absolutely loving it and will miss it so much because of this, enjoy, because for those who backed it, in 10 months this will be you!


This fills me with joy to know that i have just backed a thing of such beauty and elegance! thanks @DavecUK for all your support here


----------



## thebookfreak58

Hi Dave,

I think I posted before but it may have been lost, how is the alignment/grind distribution of the grinder? One of the big selling points of the Monolith is the over rated bearings for precision alignment.

Thanks!


----------



## DavecUK

thebookfreak58 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I think I posted before but it may have been lost, how is the alignment/grind distribution of the grinder? One of the big selling points of the Monolith is the over rated bearings for precision alignment.
> 
> Thanks!


Seems OK, certainly no problem with good shot, and taste. Problem is with particle analysis, almost all I could look at used logarithmic scales and I just had a set of sieves. I don't know how relevant the grind distribution thing is to be honest, or what it all means. if it helps though this is the closest thing I could find on the Internet, from Barista Hustle. with the Niche set so that less than 1% of the grind passed through the 1000 micron sieve and around 6% passed through the 400 micron sieve. 93% of the grind was between 1000 and 400 Micron. But even this scale uses some funny number like grams per 100 microns on the Y axis. make of it what you will.









As for over rated bearings, if it's used commercially I guess that's great, for domestic use overrated bearings don't really make any difference....just adds cost.


----------



## Deejaysuave

Dave what's the maximum weight of beans you can grind in one go?


----------



## MWJB

thebookfreak58 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I think I posted before but it may have been lost, how is the alignment/grind distribution of the grinder? One of the big selling points of the Monolith is the over rated bearings for precision alignment.
> 
> Thanks!


What is the distribution you are looking for & how are you defining this? As for alignment, what is the effect of that on (as yet undefined) distribution for every, say, +0.02mm of runout?

Distribution changes with grind setting (so needs to be correlated to a recipe & target yield), a grinder with an atypical distribution wouldn't be able to make tasty extractions, unless maybe at very low extraction yields.


----------



## haz_pro

78% there with plenty of 30% off slots left - anyone else fancy getting involved?


----------



## DavecUK

Deejaysuave said:


> Dave what's the maximum weight of beans you can grind in one go?


It's really limited by what you can get in the top dosing area without them spilling out (because the lid has to be closed before it grinds)....so I think 50g is the most I have done...it's OK with that amount. you could probably get 60g in but then they could start to spill out before you get the lid shut.


----------



## Nopapercup

If they don't reach target do all the people that signed up just get their money back?


----------



## haz_pro

Yes.


----------



## DavecUK

Nopapercup said:


> If they don't reach target do all the people that signed up just get their money back?


It's a fixed goal, so as far as I am aware....yes, from what it says on the hover message when you place cursor on fixed goal.


----------



## haz_pro

I read the t&cs before backing, you should receive money back within 5-7 days if they don't reach the target.


----------



## Jacko112

And if backed when is money taken? Now or on shipping?


----------



## Mrboots2u

thebookfreak58 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I think I posted before but it may have been lost, how is the alignment/grind distribution of the grinder? One of the big selling points of the Monolith is the over rated bearings for precision alignment.
> 
> Thanks!


at over 2000 quid to the uk you would hope so .....


----------



## haz_pro

Jacko112 said:


> And if backed when is money taken? Now or on shipping?


Money taken as soon as you back it. This is because you're not buying the grinder, you're backing the project itself. Getting the grinder is a perk because you back the project. There is no guarantee about receiving it, but I think the risk is fairly low for this given they have working prototypes.


----------



## 4085

Has anyone had their money taken yet?


----------



## haz_pro

Mine was taken almost instantly (I received a fraud text from my bank)!


----------



## 4085

mine has not been taken, thats why i asked


----------



## haz_pro

Did you get email confirmation confirming order number and stating that they will contact you when item is ready to be shipped?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> mine has not been taken, thats why i asked


I paid via Apple Pay. Money was taken 5 seconds afterwards!

And I received an email with order number too. Alternatively you can login to the indiegogo website and check your orders there.


----------



## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> at over 2000 quid to the uk you would hope so .....


This all just made me think so I looked it up and the Monolith looks very very very impressive. A thing of beauty sitting on the counter, looks as if it's been hewn from a solid block of carbon steel. No doubt heavy, over specified, over rated and over built. At the price, this has to be really really good and I know a lot of people simply want to pay to have the best and to be seen to have the best. I even watched the Video, very professionally produced nice music, very expensive machine. I did notice a few things though

With the Niche, I was very careful in all the Videos, the naked double shot looks at least as good as the ones from £2000+ grinders. I have for the first time properly defined the concepts of, total retention, Dose Consistency and Exchange in a way that instinctively makes sense, rather than the loose terms we have had up to now. I have really tried to evidence *everything* in the Videos, avoiding cuts and subtle edits. I did the naked double IMS completely cold in 1 take with 2 extractions, even making the adjustments, no rehearsals! I know watching videos can be boring, but I urge you to watch very carefully the Videos I made for the Niche. They have no music and are *not well edited*, which is sort of the point.

Go look on the internet at super expensive grinders, people measuring retention, people showing dose consistency. How many people take the burrs out and properly measure things, how many show you enough..I think, like me, you will be surprised at what you find. Then go back and revisit the Niche Videos....where I show and evidence *everything, in detail*. As a consumer group we really need to be more critical, ask more questions, challenge a bit more. If we don't we will get what the industry thinks we want, and never get what we really need! It's sort of the only reason I bother reviewing stuff, I certainly don't do it for the money.

Link below to all the playlist of all my Niche Grinder Videos.


----------



## jimbojohn55

interesting that the lower burr carrier is polished / chrome, and the grind chamber seems to be treated / anodised?

I've always been bothered by the finishing of the castings that hold the lower burrs on the grinders I have done up in the past, the bits that are exposed to the grinds as they swirl around can be rough as wet weekend in Blackpool. So next restoration the buffing mops are coming out.

well done Niche on the quality and design - will look forward to restoring one in 20yrs time


----------



## 4085

haz_pro said:


> Did you get email confirmation confirming order number and stating that they will contact you when item is ready to be shipped?


Yes I did, three times! They have confirmed the money has been taken, just I cannot see the transaction!


----------



## 4085

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I paid via Apple Pay. Money was taken 5 seconds afterwards!
> 
> And I received an email with order number too. Alternatively you can login to the indiegogo website and check your orders there.


Everything appears to be in oder, but my bank statement


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

dfk41 said:


> Everything appears to be in oder, but my bank statement


I just checked: the amount has been authorised, but not yet captured. On my statement, appears under "pending" transactions. They usually clear within 2-3 days.


----------



## 4085

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I just checked: the amount has been authorised, but not yet captured. On my statement, appears under "pending" transactions. They usually clear within 2-3 days.


No pending transactions either.......


----------



## haz_pro

Free grinder... Happy days.


----------



## Dayks

Mine hasn't been taken yet and does not appear as pending but my available balance has dropped by £360.


----------



## Dayks

84% funded, definitely looks like it will get there. I wonder if the majority of new pledges are from people who wouldn't back at £400 or couldn't due to their location.


----------



## steveholt

I suspect mainly the latter


----------



## Rhys

Mine's still pending, although I only did it yesterday when I found out the offer was extended.

Wonder if the metal cup has a lid, as there are indents to suggest so.. (just a small observation) and I wonder if a small cocktail shaker will fit under the spout.


----------



## u2jewel

Rhys said:


> Mine's still pending, although I only did it yesterday when I found out the offer was extended.
> 
> Wonder if the metal cup has a lid, as there are indents to suggest so.. (just a small observation) and I wonder if a small cocktail shaker will fit under the spout.


Dave said before that the cups are not proprietary, just a simple chocolate Shaker off the shelf (that got saw in pictures and vids) so probably you saw grooves for the lid.

Whether final product will be similar, same, or proprietary, no one knows yet.


----------



## DavecUK

u2jewel said:


> Dave said before that the cups are not proprietary, just a simple chocolate Shaker off the shelf (that got saw in pictures and vids) so probably you saw grooves for the lid.
> 
> Whether final product will be similar, same, or proprietary, no one knows yet.


What I am using is not the final cup, the final cup I understand will be manufactured and look like the one in the marketing photos.....not that the cup I have doesn't work fine.


----------



## Nopapercup

I was sitting on the fence on this at £350 and when I missed it and the only option was £400 I decided it definitely wasn't worth the wait and risk for £100 especially as there will now probably be a lot of second hand grinders for sale next June. Niche then threw a spanner in the works by extending the early bird offer. Last night I decided against it and now I've just backed it. Better not tell the other half I've spent £360 on a grinder that hasn't been built.


----------



## DavecUK

Nopapercup said:


> I was sitting on the fence on this at £350 and when I missed it and the only option was £400 I decided it definitely wasn't worth the wait and risk for £100 especially as there will now probably be a lot of second hand grinders for sale next June. Niche then threw a spanner in the works by extending the early bird offer. Last night I decided against it and now I've just backed it. Better not tell the other half I've spent £360 on a grinder that hasn't been built.


Only be a lot of grinders on sale if it gets another 18 or 19 backers.....although I'd prefer to see it well exceed the target.

As for used grinders....it's going to be very interesting isn't it. A lot of people who think they're buying this as their decaff grinder, or for when they do brewed as a second grinder are going to be mighty surprised. Can you imagine putting on a 1 year old Zenith 65E for £200 - £280 and struggling to sell it...the thought doesn't bear thinking about. or not even able to get £350 for a 2 year old Mazzer Mini E....Perhaps I'm wrong, possibly those grinders will hold their resale value, for people who really want a Mazzer etc..


----------



## Nopapercup

DavecUK said:


> Only be a lot of grinders on sale if it gets another 18 or 19 backers.....although I'd prefer to see it well exceed the target.
> 
> As for used grinders....it's going to be very interesting isn't it. A lot of people who think they're buying this as their decaff grinder, or for when they do brewed as a second grinder are going to be mighty surprised. Can you imagine putting on a 1 year old Zenith 65E for £200 - £280 and struggling to sell it...the thought doesn't bear thinking about. or not even able to get £350 for a 2 year old Mazzer Mini E....Perhaps I'm wrong, possibly those grinders will hold their resale value, for people who really want a Mazzer etc..


I'm sure they will hit their target. The more people who back it the more those sitting on the fence will have the confidence to go for it. I think there will always be those who don't want to single dose so there should still be a market for the eMini and Mignon. Personally I have no issue single dossing. I also had the view that if in the unlikely event I don't like the grinder I probably won't lose much selling it on.


----------



## oop north

Nopapercup said:


> I was sitting on the fence on this at £350 and when I missed it and the only option was £400 I decided it definitely wasn't worth the wait and risk for £100 especially as there will now probably be a lot of second hand grinders for sale next June. Niche then threw a spanner in the works by extending the early bird offer. Last night I decided against it and now I've just backed it. Better not tell the other half I've spent £360 on a grinder that hasn't been built.


But you have months to go before it appears in the house so plenty of time to butter up / think of great reasons etc. And if all else fails just say "what that old thing? I paid for it months ago"


----------



## SteveR

Cripes! I sold my stupidly expensive hi-fi system just over a year ago for something much cheaper and just as satisfying, all I wanted was a good flat white, and to be able to draw a leaf in my feeble attempts at latte art, and I stumble into this!! At least in the world of coffee £2k is considered boutique!


----------



## coffeechap

DavecUK said:


> Only be a lot of grinders on sale if it gets another 18 or 19 backers.....although I'd prefer to see it well exceed the target.
> 
> As for used grinders....it's going to be very interesting isn't it. A lot of people who think they're buying this as their decaff grinder, or for when they do brewed as a second grinder are going to be mighty surprised. Can you imagine putting on a 1 year old Zenith 65E for £200 - £280 and struggling to sell it...the thought doesn't bear thinking about. or not even able to get £350 for a 2 year old Mazzer Mini E....Perhaps I'm wrong, possibly those grinders will hold their resale value, for people who really want a Mazzer etc..


They will all still sell really well on eBay, as they always do


----------



## Deejaysuave

coffeechap said:


> They will all still sell really well on eBay, as they always do


You getting one cc..??


----------



## GaryG

I've just bought in too.

Love the look. Just hope it's a slight upgrade to my mignon.

Worst case senario I have a new grinder at work


----------



## haz_pro

Should be a massive upgrade on the mignon by the sounds of it.


----------



## MildredM

yitegmorsin said:


> I appreciate that Dave has been testing this and his review will be published in due course but I'd personally expect a bit more from Niche.


I think this point has been addressed previously on both Niche threads.


----------



## Mrboots2u

yitegmorsin said:


> I appreciate that Dave has been testing this and his review will be published in due course but I'd personally expect a bit more from Niche.


I'd expect more from you for your first post here. Niche troll alert.


----------



## coffeechap

Deejaysuave said:


> You getting one cc..??


Having just bought a new flat burr, can't really justify it at the mo, I did ask to get some time on it, but getting it out of Dave's hands is like getting blood out of a stone. Would be good for more folk to get some hands on, but appreciate that prototypes are in limited supply. I certainly wish the campaign the very best of luck.


----------



## ATZ

Mrboots2u said:


> I'd expect more from you for your first post here. Niche troll alert.


That and Dave's review is on the campaign page, for all to see.


----------



## pj.walczak

I wonder if you Dave will be involved in testing the grinder when it will be closer to the launch date? To make sure the final units won't be worse then a prototype. Also seeing how big and strong is the coffee community in UK, do you believe Martin will give more units for testing to gather more feedback?

I wonder also who is his target, is Niche hitting just "home-barsitas" or do they want to make it more mainstream product?

Regarding manufacturing, do you know what is this plan?. Will all the grinders be build in UK, or there is a plan to outsource the production to Hong-Kong, China, etc?

And how big will be the first batch of grinders?


----------



## 4085

pj.walczak said:


> I wonder if you Dave will be involved in testing the grinder when it will be closer to the launch date? To make sure the final units won't be worse then a prototype. Also seeing how big and strong is the coffee community in UK, do you believe Martin will give more units for testing to gather more feedback?
> 
> I wonder also who is his target, is Niche hitting just "home-barsitas" or do they want to make it more mainstream product?
> 
> Regarding manufacturing, do you know what is this plan?. Will all the grinders be build in UK, or there is a plan to outsource the production to Hong-Kong, China, etc?
> 
> And how big will be the first batch of grinders?


If you read the various Niche statements all units will be built in the UK. You can build one from scratch in about 5 minutes, so well designed are they and without any specialist parts. This grinder will not go down well in some quarters as they have achieved something and at a price to make competitors cringe. They have 5 prototypes that were all hand built. I guess there will be testing at various stages. Once tooling etc iOS set up it is a straight forward supply and demand calculation. The answer my friend, if you have not, is to back it at £350


----------



## pj.walczak

dfk41 said:


> The answer my friend, if you have not, is to back it at £350


I did back it. First day, Super Early bid







, no worries







I believe in this project!

Next question is regarding the grinding burrs. Will Niche use something from ItalMill (Mazzer Kony) or it will be custom burr set? Will part of the crowdfunding money go for a tool to allow them make their own burrs?

And what was behind the decision to go with 63mm burrs and not well known 68mm burrs used in Compak K10, Monolith, Pharos, Kinu M68?


----------



## 4085

pj.walczak said:


> I did back it. First day, Super Early bid
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , no worries
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I believe in this project!
> 
> Next question is regarding the grinding burrs. Will Niche use something from ItalMill (Mazzer Kony) or it will be custom burr set? Will part of the crowdfunding money go for a tool to allow them make their own burrs?
> 
> And what was behind the decision to go with 63mm burrs and not well known 68mm burrs used in Compak K10, Monolith, Pharos, Kinu M68?


 @DavecUK

questions he maybe able to answer. Dave did test two supplied burr sets and found one set better than the other, marginally, but why they did not consider the larger ones I know not


----------



## 7493

I've given in and backed it. I guess if I don't like it there will be somebody happy to have it at the launch price.


----------



## DavecUK

pj.walczak said:


> I wonder if you Dave will be involved in testing the grinder when it will be closer to the launch date? To make sure the final units won't be worse then a prototype. Also seeing how big and strong is the coffee community in UK, do you believe Martin will give more units for testing to gather more feedback?
> 
> I wonder also who is his target, is Niche hitting just "home-barsitas" or do they want to make it more mainstream product?
> 
> Regarding manufacturing, do you know what is this plan?. Will all the grinders be build in UK, or there is a plan to outsource the production to Hong-Kong, China, etc?
> 
> And how big will be the first batch of grinders?


you asked a lot of questions in a couple of e-mails, I'll try to answer what I can.


They have asked me if I am willing to test production stage versions as they progress and I have said I am willing to do this. I understand the grinders will be built in the UK and know of no plan to outsource production to other countries. Of course some parts won't be produced in the UK (because we can't any more)

 I don't know who they intend to target, or how they will market the grinder.

The grinder had 63mm burrs when I got it, I don't know why they specifically chose that size (perhaps they tried a 63mm conical burr grinder that worked well)

I would not see any real benefit to grind quality (or anything else) in increasing burr size, it would make the grinder larger, more expensive, require a more powerful motor etc..Sure it would probably grind faster, but we're not in a commercial environment are we.

I can't comment any more than I have on the Burrset (commercial confidence reasons).

I don't know how big the first batch of grinders will be and I would guess Niche are not sure either at the moment. *I would guess to get decent production pricing* they will have to buy considerably more components than the grinders they are likely to produce.


----------



## BaggaZee

Having read that review how could I not back this?! That said, I do wish it didn't look a bit like a sad moomin.


----------



## haz_pro

98%, only 3 backers away now.

Exciting times.


----------



## PPapa

haz_pro said:


> 98%, only 3 backers away now.
> 
> Exciting times.


Wait until June


----------



## haz_pro

I'll probably end up forgetting about it and it will be a nice surprise when (if) it arrives.


----------



## DavecUK

*Well the grinders left me.....returned to Niche. Very sad about that!*







I had got so used to using it and the easy workflow.

I think I will be testing things as production moves ahead. Oh just remembered, I know @dfk41 said the grinder could be built in 5 minutes. Not quite, if you break and existing grinder down and reassemble, yeas perhaps 5 or 10 minutes. When assembling from parts on a production line, so many checks have to be made, is everything right, does everything work, alignment jig testing, motor testing burr fit testing etc.. This will all take time. So cold assembly, I guess no one knows yet but a lot longer than 5 minutes.


----------



## haz_pro

Thanks for reviewing, I likely wouldn't have backed without the review.


----------



## Syenitic

"Thanks for reviewing, I likely wouldn't have backed without the review."

You, me and a lot of other folk, not just the many here but I am sure the review cannot have failed to sway those that don't lurk in this place. I hope Niche do/will recognise this.


----------



## DavecUK

Syenitic said:


> "Thanks for reviewing, I likely wouldn't have backed without the review."
> 
> You, me and a lot of other folk, not just the many here but I am sure the review cannot have failed to sway those that don't lurk in this place. I hope Niche do/will recognise this.


me I just hope the production grinders are even better than the prototype I had....at least I will be keeping a weather eye on things with various preproduction grinders as they move towards final shipping. This way hopefully any silly issues can be avoided.


----------



## thenag

I randomly tripped across the Niche when looking at other stuff on the app. I almost didn't click as most of the things that look great turn out to be built in US or elsewhere and I have nightmares about huge customs and shipping bills. I watched the video, read the blurb, looked at the price then immediately ordered it. I've never seen any grinder that ticks as many boxes for what I need.

Now I've just come here in a cold sweat wondering if I'd been a bit eager, and am glad to see I've probably made a good move. Looks like a solid upgrade from the Iberital, and solves a huge number of my problems since I only ever single dose.

Roll on next June!


----------



## Jollybean

Ive backed it and tipped us over the £50k needed. Really hope this gets off the ground and delivers all it promises.


----------



## Dayks

Yeah this could become an unhappy forum if this doesn't deliver.

Reading Dave's review and watching his videos, it really does look very promising though.


----------



## 9719

Still another 70 left at £350 for those of you who are not in yet, go on you know it makes sense  Just reread Dave's report, all his comments here, watch his videos, and take note of the fact that Dave didn't want to return it, sure I sensed a tear, which says it all really and then go for it, made sense to me.


----------



## lake_m

I wonder how many of the 130 'sold' to date have ended up on this forum.

If the production model is as good as the test model, then there's not going to be much to debate in the grinder forum come June next year.


----------



## Beeroclock

I've backed this though truth be told at the moment - having just come back from holiday and school term just starting September's credit card bill is going to be a shocker.

However it's as if the designer has visited my house and seen my needs/workflow and produced exactly the right product for me - can't see how I can be that different to most other discerning coffee drinkers..

At £350 assuming production values stay the same it's ridiculously good value. I'm not sure how this is going to be marketed - but I guess that for normal products of this ilk manufacturing costs would be in the region of 10 to 20% of the rrp price - once you factor in distribution etc. So I'm guessing this will perhaps be direct marketed or once the patent is established perhaps sold on and mass produced.

I suppose being the optimist I am - This could be first in line of products...

For all intent and purposes what it might do is shake up the market a bit and galvanise some of the other manufacturers a bit which can only be a good thing for us consumers..

So here's waiting in anticipation...


----------



## igm45

Beeroclock said:


> I suppose being the optimist I am - This could be first in line of products...


That's my hope, is this were a large flat burr grinder I would have backed it too.


----------



## PPapa

igm45 said:


> That's my hope, is this were a large flat burr grinder I would have backed it too.


What's your argument against big conical? Just curious, not claiming either is better than the other.


----------



## igm45

PPapa said:


> What's your argument against big conical? Just curious, not claiming either is better than the other.


None whatsoever,

The only reason I say that is I already have an 83mm conical hand grinder that shares many features of this grinder, including very low retention.

I would like a large flat burr electric grinder to compliment this and for times when hand grinding is inconvenient.


----------



## DavecUK

Dayks said:


> Yeah this could become an unhappy forum if this doesn't deliver.
> 
> Reading Dave's review and watching his videos, it really does look very promising though.


If it doesn't deliver, it will be a real loss to the coffee world. Finally a domestic size and priced grinder than can still deliver quality as least good as the commercial grinder, but with a much easier and more relevant work flow. We're not all professional Baristas and are not pumping out shot after shot all day!

I expect the forum concerns are if it doesn't deliver, then it's money gone....my concerns are, if it doesn't deliver....then it's a product that should have come to market gone and no one is likely to try again. My fee for the work, as you would see anyway on the charity donation evidence would be £168 which also covers the cost of the coffee I used and special roasts (scandinavian, that I did). *So in a sense I have already lost £168 because the prototype I tested was so good I would love to see it get to market. I specifically donated my fee so people could not accuse me of benefiting in any way from the review and that it was completely independent.*


----------



## Beeroclock

DavecUK said:


> If it doesn't deliver, it will be a real loss to the coffee world. Finally a domestic size and priced grinder than can still deliver quality as least good as the commercial grinder, but with a much easier and more relevant work flow. We're not all professional Baristas and are not pumping out shot after shot all day!
> 
> I expect the forum concerns are if it doesn't deliver, then it's money gone....my concerns are, if it doesn't deliver....then it's a product that should have come to market gone and no one is likely to try again. My fee for the work, as you would see anyway on the charity donation evidence would be £168 which also covers the cost of the coffee I used and special roasts (scandinavian, that I did). *So in a sense I have already lost £168 because the prototype I tested was so good I would love to see it get to market. I specifically donated my fee so people could not accuse me of benefiting in any way from the review and that it was completely independent.*


Errr - that's cheap Dave - and I don't think anyone questioning your impartiality..To be honest I wouldn't have parted with my money if it hadn't been for your review - and I credit Niche in having enough faith in their product in order to allow it out for review in prototype form..


----------



## DavecUK

Beeroclock said:


> Errr - that's cheap Dave - and I don't think anyone questioning your impartiality..To be honest I wouldn't have parted with my money if it hadn't been for your review - and I credit Niche in having enough faith in their product in order to allow it out for review in prototype form..


I'm not super wealthy or anything and that money sure would have helped at my twins Birthday event (15 year old) coming up in 3.5 weeks time. It's cheap because I don't do any of my reviews for the money, but I do believe companies should pay something for my time and it's why I don't want to review ordinary stuff.


----------



## pj.walczak

DavecUK said:


> you asked a lot of questions in a couple of e-mails, I'll try to answer what I can.


Thanks a lot!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Looks like it's now 4% above target according to the indiegogo site. Hurray!


----------



## DavecUK

Beeroclock said:


> At £350 assuming production values stay the same it's ridiculously good value. I'm not sure how this is going to be marketed - but I guess that for normal products of this ilk manufacturing costs would be in the region of 10 to 20% of the rrp price - once you factor in distribution etc. So I'm guessing this will perhaps be direct marketed or once the patent is established perhaps sold on and mass produced.


They are not the cheap burrs sold on ebay, but food grade hardened (difference is 300-400kg vs 750kg), retail price for burrs are well over £100. How much do you think the burrs alone cost when bought wholesale?


----------



## gwing

DavecUK said:


> They are not the cheap burrs sold on ebay, but food grade hardened (difference is 300-400kg vs 750kg), retail price for burrs are well over £100. How much do you think the burrs alone cost when bought wholesale?


I'll bite. Perhaps £55-70 depending on quantity?


----------



## CoffeeChris

Quite interested in this grinder as it's very kitchen friendly. I currently have a mazer Major. Very happy with this grinder. What grinders are you guys replacing? Question for @DaveC, how does the Niche compare to the Major. Would I notice much difference apart from retention?


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeChris said:


> Quite interested in this grinder as it's very kitchen friendly. I currently have a mazer Major. Very happy with this grinder. What grinders are you guys replacing? Question for @DaveC, how does the Niche compare to the Major. Would I notice much difference apart from retention?


Partly that depends on you, based on the prototype performance, the Major is not going to grind any better, won't be as dose consistent and I would guess has a much higher exchange figure. I would not advise changing (I nearly said upgrading) for reasons of grind quality, the only real valid reason for changing would be, size, workflow, retention, dose consistency and reduced exchange. Which is why I will get one, because my E92 is a ballache and the grind quality is not *noticeably* better.

For me a grinder is to grind coffee and not give me hassle, I purchased the E92 because it was the smallest big conical there is and I could single dose it (albeit with modes and a bit of hassle). I don't buy one for the look how much I spent factor and I don't necessarily consider high expenditure = high performance. I've no one to impress. If I was using a grinder in a busy commercial environment, it would be the E92 every time, at home...I don't want the hassle.

The value of a thing and how you find it, is I guess down to how much you enjoy using it. I enjoyed the Niche...because in the end I didn't really notice it or have to think about it. You will notice a big change when using the Niche....but then you will soon forget how things were and simply take it for granted. The first time you remove the burrs for cleaning, you will marvel at how easy it is, quick brush down of burrs, wipe grind chamber and sweep arms with an e cloth. After that, you will again forget how easy it is to clean and just take it for granted (because it's so easy).

P.S. If I had an EG1 or a Monolith type grinder, I am sure I would get a hard on every time I used it because of the sheer theatre of it....the Niche is the exact opposite.


----------



## CoffeeChris

DavecUK said:


> Partly that depends on you, based on the prototype performance, the Major is not going to grind any better, won't be as dose consistent and I would guess has a much higher exchange figure. I would not advise changing (I nearly said upgrading) for reasons of grind quality, the only real valid reason for changing would be, size, workflow, retention, dose consistency and reduced exchange. Which is why I will get one, because my E92 is a ballache and the grind quality is not *noticeably* better.
> 
> For me a grinder is to grind coffee and not give me hassle, I purchased the RE92 because it was the smallest big conical there is and I could single dose it (albeit with modes and a bit of hassle). I don't buy one for the look how much I spent factor and I don't necessarily consider high expenditure = high performance. I've no one to impress. If I was using a grinder in a busy commercial environment, it would be the E92 every time, at home...I don't want the hassle.
> 
> The value of a thing and how you find it, is I guess down to how much you enjoy using it. I enjoyed the Niche...because in the end I didn't really notice it or have to think about it. You will notice a big change when using the Niche....but then you will soon forget how things were and simply take it for granted. The first time you remove the burrs for cleaning, you will marvel at how easy it is, quick brush down of burrs, wipe grind chamber and sweep arms with an e cloth. After that, you will again forget how easy it is to clean and just take it for granted (because it's so easy).
> 
> P.S. If I had an EG1 or a Monolith type grinder, I am sure I would get a hard on every time I used it because of the sheer theatre of it....the Niche is the exact opposite.


Thanks dave. I may invest and put my order in. It's definitely less messy than the Major..... Depends how much I can get for my major too? It's been moded and has titanium burrs.


----------



## CoffeeChris

Forgot to ask. What did you mean by 'higher exchange figure'


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeChris said:


> Thanks dave. I may invest and put my order in. It's definitely less messy than the Major..... Depends how much I can get for my major too? It's been moded and has titanium burrs.


*If you decide to go for it*...my advice would be to keep the major and *side by side* it with the Niche for 3 weeks. If like me you find yourself using the Niche all the time...flog the major (if you can't get a good price, wait for things to die down and sell it 6 months or so later). In the* unlikely* event you find yourself going back to the major and not using the Niche, then at least you can easily flog the Niche and hang on to the major. We are all different and it's worth doing that just to see how well the workflow suits you personally and whether you can taste a difference (or a difference that matters).

P.S. exchange = amount of coffee from previous grind session, mixing with current grind session. People will say my grinder holds no old grinds, none mix in, but when they are asked what their dose variance is it might be + or - 1g or 0.5g. Logic dictates that this variance must be down to exchange (although it still doesn't tell you how much exchange)


----------



## 4085

CoffeeChris said:


> Forgot to ask. What did you mean by 'higher exchange figure'


It is the amount of old coffee that gets into a shot......the exchange value between stale and fresh coffee


----------



## Rhys

I have a Major as well, and I won't be getting rid of it. Sure, workflow is a bit time consuming as in, dose, switch on, drop beans in (with a tamper on top to stop 'em flying out), switch off, brush chute, switch on/off, brush chute again and a quick flick on and off in case some were left inside. Brush round the doser, whack the lever several times into a small cocktail shaker, brush a bit more, whack some more.. Tip into makeshift coffee catcher (yoghurt pot) etc... Exchange is hardly any. I've opened up the Major to clean it now and again, and there's very little in the grind chamber - probably some lurking under the bottom burrs though.

I'm buying a Niche as I'm also buying a house so I'll have a coffee setup in the new one, as well as my partners. I'm tending to use a Moka Pot rather a lot and I think it'll suit it down to the ground.

There's also the chance that I'll be buying a top(ish) end grinder soon anyway, so I'll be choosing what stays and what I get rid off next year after I've used the Niche..


----------



## CoffeeChris

@DaveC what type of pot do you use around your ims basket? Just watched your YouTube review. Could do with something like this around my VST basket


----------



## DavecUK

CoffeeChris said:


> @DaveC what type of pot do you use around your ims basket? Just watched your YouTube review. Could do with something like this around my VST basket


I use these and cut of about 1cm or so. Experiment until you get a good fit.

https://www.tesco.com/groceries/product/details/default.aspx?id=281936102


----------



## pj.walczak

46 left with 350 GBP price tag.

I think Martin and Niche team are very happy. The campaign is very successful.


----------



## SteveR

Assuming I can live with tapping out the retained grind and purging a fresh one, what's it got over the mignon that would warrant selling the latter for one of these?


----------



## MWJB

SteveR said:


> Assuming I can live with tapping out the retained grind and purging a fresh one, what's it got over the mignon that would warrant selling the latter for one of these?


Not tapping out retained grinds & not having to purge are its advantages, in fact they're its raison d'etre.

If you want a feature in addition, how about being able to go from espresso fine to coarse brewed in one turn of adjustment?


----------



## DavecUK

SteveR said:


> Assuming I can live with tapping out the retained grind and purging a fresh one, what's it got over the mignon that would warrant selling the latter for one of these?


Second what Mark said, here are a few others


grind quality way superior to what you currently get (in a different league)

absolute dose consistency

easier to open and clean


----------



## dsc

DavecUK said:


> Second what Mark said, here are a few others
> 
> [*]grind quality way superior to what you currently get (in a different league)...


Sorry if I missed this in this massive thread but what is the above statement based on?

T.


----------



## DavecUK

dsc said:


> Sorry if I missed this in this massive thread but what is the above statement based on?
> 
> T.


Have you read the review?

have you used a Mignon extensively?

have you compared a Mignion to other grinders in terms of grind quality?


----------



## dsc

Sorry, I misread your original post and thought it's a generic statement and not in relation to the Mignon.

I have read the review btw.

T.


----------



## DavecUK

dsc said:


> Sorry, I misread your original post and thought it's a generic statement and not in relation to the Mignon.
> 
> I have read the review btw.
> 
> T.


No, it was specific to the Mignon of which I have intimate experience of....It's also subjective, which it has to be really.


----------



## Edward

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/niche-zero-the-best-conical-burr-coffee-grinder#/

The early bird has been extended guys.


----------



## Dylan

Edward said:


> https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/niche-zero-the-best-conical-burr-coffee-grinder#/
> 
> The early bird has been extended guys.


Your a few days late to the party on that news... unless you are just reiterating for newcomers to the thread?


----------



## Edward

Only just got the email 30 seconds before I posted. I guess their mailer is slow getting through the list.


----------



## Edward

If all goes well over the next year or so and I find myself with the cash I might buy this next summer. @DaveC - You mentioned the grind quality is "in a different league" to the Mignon. Would I be right to infer from this that broadly speaking it similarly outclasses the Mazzer Mini (timer) in grind quality?

Retention doesn't upset me massively so that would be my main concern - dealing with retention being a nice bonus.


----------



## DavecUK

Edward said:


> If all goes well over the next year or so and I find myself with the cash I might buy this next summer. @DaveC - You mentioned the grind quality is "in a different league" to the Mignon. Would I be right to infer from this that broadly speaking it similarly outclasses the Mazzer Mini (timer) in grind quality?
> 
> Retention doesn't upset me massively so that would be my main concern - dealing with retention being a nice bonus.


Yes it outclasses the Mazzer Mini as well. Remember it's not just retention, but dose consistency as well. Even if 3 g per shot is save saved (let alone the reduced number of sink shots), the grinder pays for itself in 10 years or less.


----------



## Edward

In that case it'll still be a fine grinder at full price next year when I can have it in black (all being well)

Nice one


----------



## coffeechap

Anyone going to refract this on espresso settings?


----------



## coffeechap

Would also love to see a shot video using a VST and not an ims which is a hell of a lot more forgiving than a VST


----------



## Stanic

DavecUK said:


> Yes it outclasses the Mazzer Mini as well. Remember it's not just retention, but dose consistency as well. Even if 3 g per shot is save saved (let alone the reduced number of sink shots), the grinder pays for itself in 10 years or less.


exactly


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> Would also love to see a shot video using a VST and not an ims which is a hell of a lot more forgiving than a VST


If someone wants to send me a VST double and if I get any more pre production Niche grinders to test, I will be happy to try.


----------



## timmyjj21

For anyone having difficulty with payments when backing...it took me several days and about 20 tries until the website accepted my card today! Possibly due to a UK card and an Australian delivery address, but persistence seems to work


----------



## 9719

Guys and girls, update, this is going fast, the early bird £350 + p&p is down to the last 26 as of 11-30am on 14th Sept so time to put your name down if you don't want to miss out.

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/niche-zero-the-best-conical-burr-coffee-grinder#/comments

Pleased to see this doing so well, long may it continue.


----------



## SteveR

DavecUK said:


> Second what Mark said, here are a few others
> 
> 
> grind quality way superior to what you currently get (in a different league)
> 
> absolute dose consistency
> 
> easier to open and clean


Dave, in what way is it in a different league? How can I realise that with a Classic, is it even possible? I'm not worried about wastage etc, I like the mignon, it's easy to use, easy to adjust (I only grind for espresso though) and fits well in my kitchen. To put into context, I'm not sufficiently discerning that I would remotely contemplate spending more than a few hundred £££ in the total system.


----------



## Rob1

@SteveR how much reading have you done on grinders previously? Have you looked over the 'Titan Grinder' trials on home barista or read about particle distribution from Socratic coffee? I believe there were some blind taste tests performed here with a number of different grinders. Only asking as your question specifically how 'it's in a different league' could take some explaining. At the end of the day you're the only one who can decide wether or not it's worth the money to you, and you're the only one who can decide if it's worth your time to research up on grinders.


----------



## Dylan

Basically:

Virtually all machines from the Classic upwards are capable of pushing water through a puck at 'X' bar (usually 9 bar). The Classic isn't exactly stellar at getting the temperature the same every time but otherwise it does the exact same job as a machine 10x its price (I'm generalising a bit here, it's temp stability isn't as good as an e61 - although it is ok for one shot and better if you have a PID).

The grinder, and it's particle distribution will affect the drink in one way or another - it is generally considered that better tolerances and bigger burrs help with the quality in the cup, there are other factors too but those are the most common ones thought about.

All this is to say that the grinder is what makes the difference after you have a machine in your possession which can push water through a puck at a certain pressure - a Classic with an EK43 will make a vastly different shot to a Classic with a Mignon - the same goes for the Niche so long as it lives up to the prototype Dave was using.

That doesn't mean to say you should buy an EK43, or a Niche, but if you do you will probably end up with a nicer coffee.


----------



## SteveR

Well, I did hypothesise about grind particle size distribution in a different thread, and I think, though not certain that the conclusion was that the majority of commercial and pro sumer grinders like the mignon were capable of a sufficiently tight, or better, controlled distribution to the point that it was not the critical attribute. Hence my question. I'm getting different answers to the same question!


----------



## SteveR

I understand the basic science I think, of the combination of the variables in the process. Temperature of water at the head, the flow pattern of water through the puck, the pressure of water, and the grind size. I'm presuming that temp is an independent target. Grind size, pressure, and volume of grind are the related degrees of freedom.


----------



## Dylan

I wouldn't really say the Mignon falls into either commercial or prosumer, it's simply a good home consumer grinder. I'm not sure if I can make sense of that sentence either - fwiw grind size distribution is the critical attribute that affects everything else down the line and ultimately quality in the cup.


----------



## MWJB

Dylan said:


> I wouldn't really say the Mignon falls into either commercial or prosumer, it's simply a good home consumer grinder. I'm not sure if I can make sense of that sentence either - fwiw grind size distribution is the critical attribute that affects everything else down the line and ultimately quality in the cup.


How many respectable espresso grinders (not Krups/De Longhi with plastic burrs) fail to make a useable grind distribution?

If it's 'critical' what are the critical tolerances for a go/no go situation? How wide is the window for 'what works'?

I think most folk want a grind distribution that allows them to make repeatable brews/shots & is easy to work with, rather than want a super tight/critical tolerance grind distribution.

There is so little available data correlating distribution with ease of use & consistency, I really wonder why it gets so much airtime & discussion.


----------



## Dylan

MWJB said:


> There is so little available data correlating distribution with ease of use & consistency, I really wonder why it gets so much airtime & discussion.


Reminds me of the 'pocket science' term - you are right in that any 'evidence' is almost entirely circumstantial, however most of us can attest to having an easier time getting a good shot out of a Super Jolly opposed to an MC2 - the only possible difference between the two is how they grind the coffee, aka the distribution.


----------



## MWJB

Dylan said:


> Reminds me of the 'pocket science' term - you are right in that any 'evidence' is almost entirely circumstantial, however most of us can attest to having an easier time getting a good shot out of a Super Jolly opposed to an MC2 - the only possible difference between the two is how they grind the coffee, aka the distribution.


There are two possible differences: The grind distribution, the way the operator sets the grind setting and whether that setting will result in decent extraction at the operator's selected brew ratio....darn it, that's three differences...

There are three possible differences....distribution, setting, brew ratio and ease of switching from one setting to another...darn it, that's four...

There are four possible differences...maybe more


----------



## urbanbumpkin

DavecUK said:


> Yes it outclasses the Mazzer Mini as well. Remember it's not just retention, but dose consistency as well. Even if 3 g per shot is save saved (let alone the reduced number of sink shots), the grinder pays for itself in 10 years or less.


Interesting stuff @DavecUK How does it compare in the cup to a bigger burred grinder such as Mazzer Major or a Royal?


----------



## DavecUK

urbanbumpkin said:


> Interesting stuff @DavecUK How does it compare in the cup to a bigger burred grinder such as Mazzer Major or a Royal?


realy can't remember much about those, long time since I used them. Compared very well against my Ceado E92 though.

Oh someone mentioned variable affecting extraction and I think temperature was being sort of discounted. in my personal experience temperature does seem to affect things, whehter the coffee swells more or faster when it's hot or whatever, not sure...but it is one of the variables.


----------



## dsc

MWJB said:


> There are two possible differences: The grind distribution, the way the operator sets the grind setting and whether that setting will result in decent extraction at the operator's selected brew ratio....darn it, that's three differences...
> 
> There are three possible differences....distribution, setting, brew ratio and ease of switching from one setting to another...darn it, that's four...
> 
> There are four possible differences...maybe more


Do you brew espresso on a daily basis Mark? Have you compared commercial grinders back to back?

I'd say it's fairly easy to lock variables, pick a ratio, ie. 2:1 which seems like a go-to ratio for most (or I'm doing it the old fashioned way), then opt to get that in 30s (or smth else if you prefer). Grinder setting will be forced on you by the volume-in-time relation, so that's a given. Then change grinders and see how it tastes / what the ext. rates are in comparison.

Changing grinders is effectively changing particle distribution, even if you have two models from the same manufacturer, they will probably differ. Assuming you run them both the same ie. full hopper, or no hopper, wdt or not etc. you should get a decent comparison.

Saying that most grinders will produce a brew doesn't mean much in espresso although it might as well work in brewed coffee. If you have misaligned burrs on a Major it will produce sink shots even if you manage to slow down the flow enough to hit your ratios in a given time.

I can't see what makes the Niche special from a grind point of view, is it using a burr set which was specifically designed to achieve some sort of particle distribution? Is it superbly well aligned? If not, then what makes it better grind wise than any other conic on the market with the same burrset?

T.


----------



## Beeroclock

"I can't see what makes the Niche special from a grind point of view, is it using a burr set which was specifically designed to achieve some sort of particle distribution? Is it superbly well aligned? If not, then what makes it better grind wise than any other conic on the market with the same burrset?"

Not sure anyone is really saying it's better than another conical with the same size burrs - just where else are you going to get a grinder with 63mm quality burrs grinding at 350 rpm in a compact enclosure (even large enclosure) for £499 - let alone £350?


----------



## MWJB

dsc said:


> Do you brew espresso on a daily basis Mark? Have you compared commercial grinders back to back?
> 
> I'd say it's fairly easy to lock variables, pick a ratio, ie. 2:1 which seems like a go-to ratio for most (or I'm doing it the old fashioned way), then opt to get that in 30s (or smth else if you prefer). Grinder setting will be forced on you by the volume-in-time relation, so that's a given. Then change grinders and see how it tastes / what the ext. rates are in comparison.
> 
> Changing grinders is effectively changing particle distribution, even if you have two models from the same manufacturer, they will probably differ. Assuming you run them both the same ie. full hopper, or no hopper, wdt or not etc. you should get a decent comparison.
> 
> Saying that most grinders will produce a brew doesn't mean much in espresso although it might as well work in brewed coffee. If you have misaligned burrs on a Major it will produce sink shots even if you manage to slow down the flow enough to hit your ratios in a given time.
> 
> I can't see what makes the Niche special from a grind point of view, is it using a burr set which was specifically designed to achieve some sort of particle distribution? Is it superbly well aligned? If not, then what makes it better grind wise than any other conic on the market with the same burrset?
> 
> T.


No, I don't brew espresso on daily basis. When I do, I use hand grinders, little ones, they work.

What has time really got to do with espresso extraction? What is the shortest & longest time in which you can hit the same extraction?

Changing grind on the same grinder changes distribution. "even if you have two models from the same manufacturer, they will probably differ" then why be concerned at all? They're all different and therefore it's impossible to define normal tolerance/behaviour? If the Hulk had a fight with the Thing, their insurance premiums, and those of people in the immediate vicinity, would probably rise... but we don't know how much, so it doesn't help anyone. We can probably imagine a lot of probably's. Distribution has data points, alignment has data points...we don't need any more hypothesis or probably's we want data if we're going to get into this at all.

Why would you misalign the burrs on Major? What is misaligned, what is the tolerance for alignment for a Major & for what circumstance, what is typical alignment for a Major?

What is "superbly well aligned", suggests something beyond typical manufacturing tolerance? Who suggested that the Niche alignment or distribution was anything but typical? It's key feature is low retention, exchange & consistency combined with low counter height...darn, it that's 4 key features...& price, that's 5 key features...

Why is everyone concerned about knowing the distribution & alignment for this grinder when they have no data on any other production grinder & certainly not their own current grinder?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Thing would win by the way


----------



## MWJB

Mrboots2u said:


> Thing would win by the way


Probably


----------



## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> Probably


He has an anger that can only come from Something bricking up genitals...hulk is just an over rated jolly green giant


----------



## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> He has an anger that can only come from Something bricking up genitals...hulk is just an over rated jolly green giant


Hulk was one of my favourite characters as a kid.....the more you beat him the tougher he gets...he would turn the thing into MOT Type 1!


----------



## Dylan

MWJB said:


> There are two possible differences: The grind distribution, the way the operator sets the grind setting and whether that setting will result in decent extraction at the operator's selected brew ratio....darn it, that's three differences...
> 
> There are three possible differences....distribution, setting, brew ratio and ease of switching from one setting to another...darn it, that's four...
> 
> There are four possible differences...maybe more


Perhaps I should make my terms a bit more clear...

I am not suggesting one grinder has a grind distribution that looks like 'X' and another that looks like 'Y' - as you mention different grind settings on the same grinder produce different grind distribution (obviously)

What I am saying is if you are setting each of your two grinders to produce the same espresso - so the same brew ratio - you are going to have to find the right setting on each grinder.

Once set at this setting the two grinders will have a different grind distribution - this is the only difference between them at this stage - and if one tastes shit then its fault can be found in how it is distributing the grinds.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Mrboots2u said:


> Thing would win by the way


Thing always wins. Hulk eventually calms down, changes back to Dr Banner and Thing stomps on him


----------



## MWJB

Dylan said:


> Perhaps I should make my terms a bit more clear...
> 
> I am not suggesting one grinder has a grind distribution that looks like 'X' and another that looks like 'Y' - as you mention different grind settings on the same grinder produce different grind distribution (obviously)
> 
> What I am saying is if you are setting each of your two grinders to produce the same espresso - so the same brew ratio - you are going to have to find the right setting on each grinder.
> 
> Once set at this setting the two grinders will have a different grind distribution - this is the only difference between them at this stage - and if one tastes shit then its fault can be found in how it is distributing the grinds.


OK, it's an interesting scenario, but how often does it happen? Convince me this isn't a straw man argument - same shot being a representative espresso (for which all definitions are broad), somewhere around 18-21% extraction.

*If* the distributions were significantly different (e.g. one grinder simply cannot produce a palatable shot as high as, say, 17.5 to 21.5%, the other can only produce a tasty shot in excess of 21%), why try to bang a square peg into a round hole by making the same shot? Why not play each distribution to it's strength & change brew ratio accordingly?

I'm sure a bunch of grinders, at a bunch of settings, given the same scenario, will make subtly different distributions. What no one seems to know is what is normal, what is significantly different (apart from the EK aligned for espresso).

Yes, distributions are different, grinders are different, but what is abnormal? You have a grinder is it normal & what is the parameter relating to its distribution that you have identified that confirms this?

Is it just possible, just maybe, that a lot of grinder manufacturers actually know what they are doing? Remember grinders break up beans, but people actually make the drink.


----------



## DavecUK

i suppose the one significant thing, only Myself, Mark and Paul have actually seen used the grinder....so we're the ones that sort of know what we are talking about, based on experience. that said, I certainly don't know what distribution really means, I just know it worked good. Others who are posting on here and not used the grinder...it's just speculation, which i guess is being answered in the best way it can be.

The two Burrsets both performed well, If I am honest I thought B was very slightly better than A, but both were excellent and seemed to perform well above the run of the mill Mini Es and similar..


----------



## u2jewel

I guess it's not everyday that we get to see burr sets comparisons and get to experience end result differences.

Same grinder, same diameter and speed, just different blade geometry. Or was it different material too?

I know in food preparation, chefs swear by the blade and it's ability to cut well can influence not just presentation and mouth feel, but tastes too.

Off the top of my head, I can think of Baratza sette having interchangeable burrs for different brew methods.

Chefs have specialised knives for particular tasks. We've yet to see as much clear differentiation in burrs as we do in Chef knives.


----------



## UncleJake

So - as far as I can gather @MWJB you're suggesting that above a certain point (plastic burrs) and below a certain point (EK) all grinders are pretty much equal, distribution or grind 'quality' wise - in that there is no data to suggest that a certain grind distribution is 'better' than another?


----------



## MWJB

UncleJake said:


> So - as far as I can gather @MWJB you're suggesting that above a certain point (plastic burrs) and below a certain point (EK) all grinders are pretty much equal, distribution or grind 'quality' wise - in that there is no data to suggest that a certain grind distribution is 'better' than another?


Basically, yes, that is what I am wondering.

I think it is commentators that speculate on whether one distribution is 'better' or 'worse', rather than them being what they are, like a tool for a job - very tight for higher extractions/smaller doses. Normal, and unusually wide with limited extraction capability (short ratios/bigger doses). Most factors that influence grinder purchases are separate to grind distribution.


----------



## coffeechap

How do you account for the direct extraction yield capabilities (espresso)of different grinders then mark?


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> How do you account for the direct extraction yield capabilities (espresso)of different grinders then mark?


What are they, in the context of espresso globally?


----------



## coffeechap

Different extraction yield capabilities


----------



## PaulL

Well, I haven't posted on this thread but I have followed it. Since Dave mentions me I'll post to say that I called in to his on the Sunday he made the open invite, basically with milk and beans as I thought it would be busy so to help as needed. I know some folks genuinely interested could not make it but not a single person showed up. I was stunned.

You're going to want my thoughts I suppose. Dave despises BS and so his videos were deliberately straight as a die, no Country Life kitchen, mood music, professional lighting or edits. I commented that you would think the Niche and Vesuvius give industrial levels of noise but anyone using a Vesuvius or other top end machine will know that's the camera exaggerating the noise, many coffee users will not. So having owned Macap MC4, Mazzer Mini E and currently an E37s believe me when I say the Niche is quieter than the video suggests.

Having turned the adjustment collar to adjust the grind I can say it has a quality engineering feel. I thought using the stainless steel cup rather than straight to portafilter would be tiresome but is not. Remember that the angle of the burrs and therefore Niche outer case plus the lack of height for portafilter with spouts underneath and then the materials to overcome static mean you need to use the cup. It's quickly forgotten in practise as many aspects of coffee making are.

My own coffee made by Dave was superb. In literally 2 minutes it was clear to me that the negligible retention and single shot feeding means you can go from one coffee to another and back again shot by shot. Similarly you can adjust out to cafetiere coffee instantly and back to your espresso setting again. And I would as I sometimes like to make a cafetiere of Colombian and drink it black with panela.

Have I backed it? My funds have some life priorities at the moment.

Will I buy one in due course? Without hesitation if production matches the prototype.


----------



## Dylan

I'm pretty happy to resign myself to the wealth of experience and knowledge both on this forum and amongst prosumers and professional baristas everywhere who don't use an MC2/Mignon/Delonghi because they are unable to get an acceptable drink out of it, I find it pretty hard to believe they simply aren't trying hard enough.


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> Different extraction yield capabilities


OK, define them?


----------



## coffeechap

As you can't seem to answer the question I shall ask another, why do you sift your coffee


----------



## coffeechap

And what hands on experience have you had with the more expensive grinders?


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> As you can't seem to answer the question I shall ask another, why do you sift your coffee


What question, you're posing a broad concept...you need to make the question less open, explain what you expect in terms of targets?

I sift coffee to either reduce small particles from immersion brews, for a cleaner cup, or to lift extraction where I have ground coarse enough to prevent me hitting the extraction I want whilst also reducing small particles. I can't presently correlate this to specific grinder distribution characteristics. All burr grinders make particles from zero upwards. Sifting tops & tails the distribution. Note the vast majority of coffee I make is not sifted.

Personally, I use hand grinders, if I have espresso out it's usually ground on a Mythos.


----------



## MWJB

Dylan said:


> I'm pretty happy to resign myself to the wealth of experience and knowledge both on this forum and amongst prosumers and professional baristas everywhere who don't use an MC2/Mignon/Delonghi because they are unable to get an acceptable drink out of it, I find it pretty hard to believe they simply aren't trying hard enough.


Your words and odd group of grinders to bunch together, not mine.


----------



## 9719

This came to light whilst browsing, doesn't tell anyone whose been following this thread closely anything we didn't know already but thought I would post anyways,

https://www.perfectdailygrind.com/2017/09/niche-zero-grinder-offers-almost-zero-retention/


----------



## Dylan

MWJB said:


> Your words and odd group of grinders to bunch together, not mine.


Indeed, an odd bunch.


----------



## Edward

I'm in a similar boat to you Dylan with the added caveat that I no longer back crowd funded projects. If the end product turns out to be everything Dave has said of the prototype I'll gladly pay 500 for it next year, clean out the mazzer and put it in storage.


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> Would also love to see a shot video using a VST and not an ims which is a hell of a lot more forgiving than a VST


i will make my second appeal,* if anyone has a VST double, I'll be happy to try is out in a naked portafilter with the Niche.* I have one again for a while after conducting a test with the US motor in it. I am now continuing with a few more tests with the UK version as it evolves.

So post me a VST and I'll video it. I can't say fairer than that.


----------



## UncleJake

DavecUK said:


> i will make my second appeal,* if anyone has a VST double, I'll be happy to try is out in a naked portafilter with the Niche.* I have one again for a while after conducting a test with the US motor in it. I am now continuing with a few more tests with the UK version as it evolves.
> 
> So post me a VST and I'll video it. I can't say fairer than that.


I can post you one. I need to check what I have spare but I think I have a 21g that I can live without for a while. Although that's probably a 'triple' rather than a 'double'.

Will check - dm me your address.


----------



## 4085

DavecUK said:


> i will make my second appeal,* if anyone has a VST double, I'll be happy to try is out in a naked portafilter with the Niche.* I have one again for a while after conducting a test with the US motor in it. I am now continuing with a few more tests with the UK version as it evolves.
> 
> So post me a VST and I'll video it. I can't say fairer than that.


I can send you one Dave. PM me your addy and will post tomorrow


----------



## DavecUK

@dfk41 Thanks for posting the VST to me. I got the 18g VST basket this morning, been pulling shots with it already...people are right it is a little more tricky than the IMS.

Thanks very much Dave, video to come soon.


----------



## coffeechap

Even better to truly show how good that Niche is, do a 15g lighter roasted VST shot.


----------



## coffeechap

Oh and show us the videos of it not going so smoothly


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> Even better to truly show how good that Niche is, do a 15g lighter roasted VST shot.





> Oh and show us the videos of it not going so smoothly


do you want me to spin some cartwheels, get 15 different types of roasts and coffees.....


----------



## DavecUK

I just think I'll not bother posting the Videos


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Did you manage to get a good extraction out of it or is it really bad?


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Did you manage to get a good extraction out of it or is it really bad?


It was OK, unfortunatelyI got the portafilter and had very limited time to do a few shots before the grinder was being collected again. Well actually I only had time to do 2 shots with Burrset A. One to find the adjustment and the second the pour, after this I was out of time. It certainly required a very different grind from the IMS and I would probably play around with the profile more. e.g. not drop the pressure towards the end, or only by a little bit and probably have a slightly different preinfusion at the front end. My coffee was also over month old medium roast el salvador (which requires a fine grind as it is), so I'm sure a little fresher would look better. I didn't bother with any stirring or WDT or any of that, just bunged it in a pulled the shot. I would have preferred more time and more shots.

I only had that last bag of coffee as I am need to to roast a few kilos this weekend.....


----------



## coffeechap

DavecUK said:


> do you want me to spin some cartwheels, get 15 different types of roasts and coffees.....


If ou think it would be productive yes!


----------



## coffeechap

Can we get some shots pulled on a mere mortal machine that most of the backers would have as well?


----------



## ATZ

Update, they are now offering a midnight black option for £25 more as an upgrade to existing purchasers or for £385 on the extended early bird.


----------



## marchaos

For the lazy...



http://imgur.com/cxQEfV0


----------



## PPapa

Thanks ATZ for sharing.

Love the black. I was hoping it would be a stretch goal (i.e. campaign must reach £X to get an upgrade), but... love how the black looks like!

Got the upgrade.


----------



## 4085

PPapa said:


> Thanks ATZ for sharing.
> 
> Love the black. I was hoping it would be a stretch goal (i.e. campaign must reach £X to get an upgrade), but... love how the black looks like!
> 
> Got the upgrade.


How do you select the upgrade?


----------



## PPapa

dfk41 said:


> How do you select the upgrade?


----------



## igm45

dfk41 said:


> How do you select the upgrade?


Here's the link straight to the upgrade :

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/niche-zero-the-best-conical-burr-coffee-grinder/payments/new


----------



## 4085

many ta's


----------



## Stevie-heathie

One of the things holding me back was the colour. Just jumped in for the black. £385 + £10 P&P for the UK.

Best

Steve


----------



## DaveP

Stevie-heathie said:


> One of the things holding me back was the colour. Just jumped in for the black. £385 + £10 P&P for the UK.
> 
> Best
> 
> Steve


£285 ? now that price is reasonable


----------



## Grahamg

I liked the white, but the wife overruled me and paid for the upgrade to black.


----------



## ATZ

Whislt I love the black our worktops are slate black so the white is actually a better look for me. Dammit!


----------



## marchaos

Next perk... Niche Black to Space Grey upgrade - £25

Genius!


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> Can we get some shots pulled on a mere mortal machine that most of the backers would have as well?


With a Vesuvius, it can be programmed to be a non pressure profiling machine... it's a very versatile espresso machine.....or do you mean a Gaggia classic?


----------



## coffeechap

DavecUK said:


> With a Vesuvius, it can be programmed to be a non pressure profiling machine... it's a very versatile espresso machine.....or do you mean a Gaggia classic?


Would be nice to let those backers who have a classic see what it is like on a machine more commensurate with their budget. Perhaps also on a Lever machine and an hx. Just to show what it is like with those machines.

Still also keenyo see those videos of the shots pulled using the VST 18g and if possible on a 15g VST especially as these are the standard for most folk on here. (Quite surprised you haven't got any)


----------



## PPapa

coffeechap said:


> Would be nice to let those backers who have a classic see what it is like on a machine more commensurate with their budget. Perhaps also on a Lever machine and an hx. Just to show what it is like with those machines.
> 
> Still also keenyo see those videos of the shots pulled using the VST 18g and if possible on a 15g VST especially as these are the standard for most folk on here. (Quite surprised you haven't got any)


Or we could just not request Dave to do that, wait few months and see what happens?









There should be more crowdfunding projects though. I'm having upgradititis right now and the cure for that is patience.


----------



## coffeechap

PPapa said:


> Or we could just not request Dave to do that, wait few months and see what happens?


Why? I am genuinely intrigued to see what the VST results are like as this is a good indicator of the quality of the grind


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> Why? I am genuinely intrigued to see what the VST results are like as this is a good indicator of the quality of the grind


The quality of the grind, or the fineness of the grind? If the quality, what aspect of it's quality?

Why does this grinder deserve levels of scrutiny beyond any other (burr size, dimensions, dosing procedure, price)?


----------



## 9719

@DavecUK

If someone wants to send me a VST double and if I get any more pre production Niche grinders to test, I will be happy to try.

If you pm me your address a few days before you next have ago with the Niche Im willing to forgo my 15g vst (assuming you don't already have one) for a few days so you can run a few shots through it and post your findings / thoughts / videos.


----------



## coffeechap

MWJB said:


> The quality of the grind, or the fineness of the grind? If the quality, what aspect of it's quality?
> 
> Why does this grinder deserve levels of scrutiny beyond any other (burr size, dimensions, dosing procedure, price)?


Why do you so readily come to its defence? It is not going beyond the same testing and use that any other grinders do on the Forum. I think that it is right that the very limited few who get hands on this grinder, that have proclaimed it to be as good as they have, carry out some extra observations, if they get the chance.


----------



## donblacc

Well this is definitely another £25 i don't need to spend... but damn, it looks good!


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> Why do you so readily come to its defence? It is not going beyond the same testing and use that any other grinders do on the Forum. I think that it is right that the very limited few who get hands on this grinder, that have proclaimed it to be as good as they have, carry out some extra observations, if they get the chance.


Why do you demand specific, left-field scenario videos?

Most other grinders are released, bought & used, they're not often tested independently with findings made public beforehand. The claims around the grinder centre around the lack of grounds losses, noise, physical size (all objective) & the fact it uses a 63mm burr set. We can all think of scenarios we would like tested, but really if you don't believe it'll measure up, get something else. Or make note of your "to do" list for when it is released & make your own judgement. Firing off suggestions as to how others spend their time seems a bit off.

You keep talking about grind "quality", we would all like assurances & a metric for that I'm sure, but there is precious little out there for any other grinder.


----------



## coffeechap

How on earth is using a VST in a video so left field?

Most folk have them, they are highly rated so is it not reasonable to ask to see that in a video as well as the use of another popular basket?


----------



## coffeechap

MWJB said:


> We can all think of scenarios we would like tested, but really if you don't believe it'll measure up, get something else. Or make note of your "to do" list for when it is released & make your own judgement. Firing off suggestions as to how others spend their time seems a bit off.


I don't know if it will measure up! I dont really want one as I have purchased a kakatek flat so won't need to do my own tests, I did ask to get some time on it but was not on the shortlist. Had I then it would have been used with VST baskets and rest assured If it is good I would say so. I am not firing off suggestions for how others (there is only one person who gets to test it) spend their time just asking if it is possible. If it is not then so be it. Forgive me for being skeptical


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> Would be nice to let those backers who have a classic see what it is like on a machine more commensurate with their budget. Perhaps also on a Lever machine and an hx. Just to show what it is like with those machines.
> 
> Still also keenyo see those videos of the shots pulled using the VST 18g and if possible on a 15g VST especially as these are the standard for most folk on here. (Quite surprised you haven't got any)


I did try the 18g, but really there's always going to be something, now it's the 15g as well, then it's with a specific machine, after a while it starts to be 10 different machines 4 types of baskets and 3 levels of roast with 10 different coffees. At the end of that 1200 combinations of tests, satisfaction will still not be had because there is always another test



> till also keenyo see those videos of the shots pulled using the VST 18g and if possible on a 15g VST especially as these are the standard for most folk on here. (Quite surprised you haven't got any)


Never felt the need to have them just because everyone on a forum has them, have tried the 18g and yes it's interesting. I have it loaded all the time at the moment. Is there a massive difference vs my IMS baskets...not really. I guess I have been lucky in being able to make decent coffee with just an IMS competition basket, or god forbid an ordinary one that comes with the machine. I can even make a good coffee without a refractometer, special tamper or special cups.... It must be a mystery how people ever managed to make a decent coffee before the VST basket and other stuff came along. Or perhaps all pre VST coffee was no good?

*I was going to post the videos, but felt. *




















coffeechap said:


> I don't know if it will measure up! I dont really want one as I have purchased a kakatek flat so won't need to do my own tests, I did ask to get some time on it but was not on the shortlist. Had I then it would have been used with VST baskets and rest assured If it is good I would say so. I am not firing off suggestions for how others (there is only one person who gets to test it) spend their time just asking if it is possible. If it is not then so be it. Forgive me for being skeptical


You could always conduct all those tests on your cafetech, that will keep you busy and there was an open invite for people to come try it...


----------



## coffeechap

Dave I am not asking for lots of tests and you know that! If you don't want to do the tests that's your perogative. I will be putting the kafetek through its paces, not to sell it to anyone else but because I am genuinely interested in what is being brought to the market (as I am genuinely with the Niche). The difference is I can and did purchase the kafetek right now, unfortunately that is not the case with the Niche. I am sure I will get to try it out for myself when it comes to market and I hope it is everything that you say that it is.

Of course tasty coffee can be produced from stock baskets and stock machines. You don't need the most expensive gear to acheive good results.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

To change the topic to something less controversial ..I dont like the black with the oak feet.. maybe the next perk will be a different type of wood? something darker, or even carbon fibre feet


----------



## 7493

I was one of the people asking for a black version. Now I'm not so sure. What does everybody else think? Black or white?


----------



## DavecUK

Rob666 said:


> I was one of the people asking for a black version. Now I'm not so sure. What does everybody else think? Black or white?


If it were me, I'd go for black....


----------



## Nopapercup

I'm sticking with the white, going by the photos I prefer it. I'm not really sure why they're going to the expense at this stage to produce one in another colour. It's not like the white hasn't been popular.


----------



## 9719

I looked, felt undecided, went away, had an espresso, did some emails, went back, still wasn't sure, did some other bits and pieces, had yet another look and finally settled on the white version. Just seems to fit with the timber better to my eye. Not that it matters one jot what colour it is, orange seems fashionable in some quarters , it'll be judged on the quality of the grinds it produces and its longevity. Going on Dave's tests the first is pretty much odds on, and it seems a fair bet this will stand the test of time also, but without a crystal ball no one can say for sure.

So its a vote for white here.


----------



## Rhys

I'm sticking with the white, it'll go with my white Bialetti Induction Moka Pot. I think it'll go with any kitchen as well.


----------



## DavidBondy

Black - even at the expense of a further £25! Fits with my kitchen and other coffee making devices .....

David


----------



## 4085

I bought one of each as my son has a black sage DB and I do not care!


----------



## 7493

On balance I think I'm sticking with white. Thanks for the comments folks.


----------



## eddie57

I have a black Zenith 65E. so I've upgraded to compliment that. and the missus has OCD so a no-brainer for me


----------



## BaggaZee

If the wooden pieces can be removed so I can sand and stain them, I'll go for Black. Given how easy it is to disassemble I reckon it's a safe bet.


----------



## Beeroclock

Hmmm black pictures look like renders to me, but then again so do a lot of the white ones - for me black would definitely suit my Sage (black) and coffee corner better....


----------



## Niche Coffee

We love reading your comments and feedback. The Midnight Black upgrade has proved popular but we are glad to see the white is still being well received.

We are entering the last week of our campaign and really want to make a final push to get to £100k.

Please share us with any coffee loving friends and family who would benefit from the grinder.

Your support means a lot to us.


----------



## igm45

TonyCoffeeNewbie said:


> To change the topic to something less controversial ..I dont like the black with the oak feet.. maybe the next perk will be a different type of wood? something darker, or even carbon fibre feet


Totally agree with you


----------



## mctrials23

I wonder if Niche would consider selling the different colour shells on their own in future or if we could simply remove the shell and spray it another colour if we wanted. The white looks nicer but I think thats partly because the black is renders rather than a physical product.


----------



## UncleJake

Grahamg said:


> I liked the white, but the wife overruled me and paid for the upgrade to black.


Wow. Ask the wife. I should have thought of that.


----------



## bongo

I apologise if this has been answered. But from the specs all i get for the motor is 230v/50hz.

What is the motor's power?

Thanks in advance


----------



## martinierius

I don't see much animo on indiegogo for the black version, is the price too steep? If it was something like 10£ would there be more intrest?


----------



## GingerBen

I'm very close to pushing the button on a black one. What's £25 when spending 350+?


----------



## mihai_omega

bongo said:


> What is the motor's power?


The motor power is not disclosed. DaveC answered the same question I asked on a





.

I assume the motor power is significantly lower than the competitor's, especially with flat burrs, so it would be a disadvantage for Niche to reveal it.

However, after talking to some other forum members, even the power of 100W would suffice.


----------



## Dylan

mihai_omega said:


> The motor power is not disclosed. DaveC answered the same question I asked on a


There was also mention of it being DC and not AC, which requires less power.

Dave put some very light roasts through it and it didn't struggle - this is all that really matters.


----------



## 9719

Last chance folks! If anyone hasn't made up there mind yet today is your last chance to back the Niche....

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/niche-zero-the-best-conical-burr-coffee-grinder#/


----------



## CoffeeChris

I need to make a decision today!


----------



## Obnic

CoffeeChris said:


> I need to make a decision today!


Ask the 8 ball: http://www.magic8ballfortuneteller.com


----------



## CoffeeChris

Anyone else still in two minds?


----------



## haz_pro

I ended up pulling out and getting a refund, decided I wanted to get a manual grinder instead. Still keeping a close eye on this out of interest though.


----------



## 4085

haz_pro said:


> I ended up pulling out and getting a refund, decided I wanted to get a manual grinder instead. Still keeping a close eye on this out of interest though.


Why, if you have pulled out?


----------



## ronsil

Likewise - I'm not in on this but am enjoying keeping a 'close eye' on what's going onopcorn:


----------



## ATZ

CoffeeChris said:


> Anyone else still in two minds?


I was, but then I thought there's nothing in this price range offering anything close. And Dave's review sold me on it.


----------



## 9719

Martin has obviously been reading this forum and noting there were so many sitting on the fence undecided as to which way to leap, has kindly given those folk an extra 30 days to decide.









posted by Martin Nicholson Oct 4, 2017 • 2:10PM

Update 8

We've received so much support and appreciate everyone for backing our campaign. We have only a few days left but after talking to the team at Indiegogo, we decided to extend the campaign since we've received such great feedback from the community and we want to ensure everyone who is interested in backing us has ample time. We'll be extending for another 30 days, so no need to fret if you're just now getting to the page!

We are currently in the process of starting the tooling programme for the major components, so we stay on track for delivering the Niche Zero in June 2018.

The Niche Team

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/niche-zero-the-best-conical-burr-coffee-grinder#/updates/all


----------



## haz_pro

dfk41 said:


> Why, if you have pulled out?


Why am I still interested?

Just to see how things pan out over the next 8 months, any more testing that Dave carries out, updates from the Niche team etc.


----------



## ATZ

haz_pro said:


> Why am I still interested?
> 
> Just to see how things pan out over the next 8 months, any more testing that Dave carries out, updates from the Niche team etc.


 @haz_pro are you gonna invest at a later date then?


----------



## haz_pro

I don't plan on it, but who knows.

I still think it sounds like a great grinder at a fantastic price. I just decided I want a manual grinder.


----------



## Stanic

I might get it later as it is an attractive grinder but I definitely want to wait for the production version to hit the market first


----------



## GingerBen

I went for it. Seems like a great grinder for the money and as I'm the only coffee drinker in my house a high quality single doser will suit me well and not need upgrading for quite some time imo.

Well until the inevitable kicks in of course...


----------



## tohenk2

I backed the project on Indiegogo. Up until now the white version, but I didn't ask my wife about the color.

And I hope (for no good reason really) TiN or some coating like that (Red Speed?) for the burrs will be a upgrade possibility in the future.

Already asked my friendly retailer to hold on to old beans for me so I can season the grinder


----------



## Mrboots2u

tohenk2 said:


> I backed the project on Indiegogo. Up until now the white version, but I didn't ask my wife about the color.
> 
> And I hope (for no good reason really) TiN or some coating like that (Red Speed?) for the burrs will be a upgrade possibility in the future.
> 
> Already asked my friendly retailer to hold on to old beans for me so I can season the grinder


For home users a coated burr simply isn't required ( in terms of life span of burrs) and I would suspect significantly increase the price to where it becomes unrealistic for the average home user.

Again it's core market at £350 isn't uber geeks that want to spend 6-700 on a grinder.,yeah the geeks are blacking it as there is enough great features to make it appealing.

I see people asking around aboit tolerances and will it Match the build spec of a monolith.. Monoliths new are six times the price, there has to be compromises.

I hope they keep focus and get it to market rather than get dragged into options, opinions of the home bariata . Where this has happened other projects have significantly over shot their lead times.

( 8 page discussions om a drip tray )


----------



## ATZ

Mrboots2u said:


> For home users a coated burr simply isn't required ( in terms of life span of burrs) and I would suspect significantly increase the price to where it becomes unrealistic for the average home user.
> 
> Again it's core market at £350 isn't uber geeks that want to spend 6-700 on a grinder.,yeah the geeks are blacking it as there is enough great features to make it appealing.
> 
> I see people asking around aboit tolerances and will it Match the build spec of a monolith.. It's six times less the price, there has to be compromises.
> 
> I hope they keep focus and get it to market rather than get dragged into options, opinions of the home bariata . Where this has happened other projects have significantly over shot their lead times.
> 
> ( 8 page discussions om a drip tray )


Yep, KISS.

The strengths of this are the virtually zero retention, looks, ease of use, quiteness and assumed grind quality based on prototype review.

Those alone sell it at this price point. Save the bells and whistles for projects down the line or price it appropriately.


----------



## jlarkin

GingerBen said:


> I went for it. Seems like a great grinder for the money and as I'm the only coffee drinker in my house a high quality single doser will suit me well and not need upgrading for quite some time imo.
> 
> Well until the inevitable kicks in of course...


You're welcome to come and try a brew with an EK some time Ben ;-)


----------



## GingerBen

jlarkin said:


> You're welcome to come and try a brew with an EK some time Ben ;-)


i'd love to!

Will not buy one, will not buy one....repeat repeat lol


----------



## Rhys

GingerBen said:


> i'd love to!
> 
> Will not buy one, will not buy one....repeat repeat lol


Hope you have very strong will power... For single dosing an EK is a joy to use. The downside for me is at the end of the month I've got to give the one I've being lent, back to it's owner







Going back to the Major will be a bit of a comedown, not that the Major isn't a great grinder - it's just a faff for single dosing and not in the same league as an EK. Looking forward to the Niche though..


----------



## GingerBen

Rhys said:


> Hope you have very strong will power... For single dosing an EK is a joy to use. The downside for me is at the end of the month I've got to give the one I've being lent, back to it's owner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Going back to the Major will be a bit of a comedown, not that the Major isn't a great grinder - it's just a faff for single dosing and not in the same league as an EK. Looking forward to the Niche though..


its not so much will power that will prevent me from buying one, it's how fond I've become of the parts of my body my wife would remove if I did


----------



## Rhys

GingerBen said:


> its not so much will power that will prevent me from buying one, it's how fond I've become of the parts of my body my wife would remove if I did


You don't have to worry about SWMBO hitting you over the head with one, they weigh a ton!!


----------



## PPapa

New video by Niche.


----------



## fatboyslim

Can it really do espresso and brewed successfully???


----------



## CoffeeChris

Rhys said:


> Hope you have very strong will power... For single dosing an EK is a joy to use. The downside for me is at the end of the month I've got to give the one I've being lent, back to it's owner
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Going back to the Major will be a bit of a comedown, not that the Major isn't a great grinder - it's just a faff for single dosing and not in the same league as an EK. Looking forward to the Niche though..


How did you compare it to the Major Rhys?


----------



## ATZ

fatboyslim said:


> Can it really do espresso and brewed successfully???


Have you seen Dave's review?


----------



## fatboyslim

ATZ said:


> Have you seen Dave's review?


Yes but the only thing I care about is how close it gets to an EK in terms of flavour in the cup. I wouldn't use it for espresso that much.


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> Yes but the only thing I care about is how close it gets to an EK in terms of flavour in the cup. I wouldn't use it for espresso that much.


The EK is pretty much unique (depending on the performance of the few, post-EK inspired grinders) I wouldn't be expecting EK performance from a more typical grinder, whether it be the Niche or the hundreds of others.


----------



## ATZ

fatboyslim said:


> Yes but the only thing I care about is how close it gets to an EK in terms of flavour in the cup. I wouldn't use it for espresso that much.


He posted another review where a forum member came and did some pour over. Seemed to work just fine from what I read.


----------



## GingerBen

ATZ said:


> He posted another review where a forum member came and did some pour over. Seemed to work just fine from what I read.


is there a link for this?


----------



## ATZ

GingerBen said:


> is there a link for this?


It's in the depths of this thread somewhere


----------



## MWJB

GingerBen said:


> is there a link for this?


That was me, I did a few V60's & a couple of French presses at my normal recipes & the Niche worked as expected.


----------



## Jony

Oh June is so far away, then even could go another Month shall I shan't I?


----------



## Rhys

CoffeeChris said:


> How did you compare it to the Major Rhys?


Still using the EK, the Major is sulking in a corner.

Biggest improvement is not having to brush the chute out, or repeatedly switch on and off to clear the chamber. Speed of dialling in is great as well.

I've not had them side by side for a direct comparison (taste test) as they are both rather heavy and herself says I already have too much coffee stuff as it is in the kitchen.









I don't drink that much espresso to be honest, so the Niche grinder for me would be used mainly for Moka Pot and V60 - both of which I use on the same setting on the Ek (12 o'clock) so doubt I'd be needing to adjust much.

@fatboyslim you're more than welcome to borrow mine when it arrives next year - that's if you don't decide to get one yourself?


----------



## GingerBen

MWJB said:


> That was me, I did a few V60's & a couple of French presses at my normal recipes & the Niche worked as expected.


id be interested to see it if you have a YouTube link?


----------



## MWJB

GingerBen said:


> id be interested to see it if you have a YouTube link?


What for?


----------



## GingerBen

MWJB said:


> What for?


the video or have I misunderstood


----------



## MWJB

GingerBen said:


> the video or have I misunderstood


It was part of Dave's independent report on the Niche. Have you looked on the Niche website?


----------



## GingerBen

MWJB said:


> It was part of Dave's independent report on the Niche. Have you looked on the Niche website?


yes I've seen his videos, haven't read the review fully thoigh


----------



## u2jewel

It seems the year 2018 is, the year of low retention grinders.

Starting with Niche, we now have Mazzer ZM and and Ceado joining the party.

I guess it is going to be another year or so before we see Niche needing to compete in its own price category; and not that we're spoilt for choices yet, I'm glad manufacturers have taken note of our collective cries.


----------



## PPapa

u2jewel said:


> It seems the year 2018 is, the year of low retention grinders.
> 
> Starting with Niche, we now have Mazzer ZM and and Ceado joining the party.
> 
> I guess it is going to be another year or so before we see Niche needing to compete in its own price category; and not that we're spoilt for choices yet, I'm glad manufacturers have taken note of our collective cries.


Not heard of Ceado, but Mazzer ZM and Niche grinders are targeted to completely different markets and price ranges.


----------



## fatboyslim

For sure when you get yours @Rhys we can do some side-by-side comparison.


----------



## u2jewel

PPapa said:


> Not heard of Ceado, but Mazzer ZM and Niche grinders are targeted to completely different markets and price ranges.


Yup, I maybe could have phrased it clearer. You're right. My point was that we're getting there; more of these low retention grinders are surfacing. And it will be another year at least before we see Niche having a competitor in the same price bracket.

The Ceado, what's being shown at HOST at the moment. Single dosing 86(?)mm flat burr with 0.1g retention. Looks like a monolith flat hybrid.


----------



## Stanic

PPapa said:


> Not heard of Ceado, but Mazzer ZM and Niche grinders are targeted to completely different markets and price ranges.


Ceado single doser, configurable and price tag reportedly more than 3k, so hardly a competition to Niche


----------



## holdtheonions

I've previously thought about taking my e37s out of the housing and building a wood housing to angle it monolith style for single dosing. I think it would be relatively easy to do on that machine.


----------



## hotmetal

Be easier to get a Mythos if you want angled burrs, rather than re-engineering the Ceado body I would have thought.


----------



## Gazrob

I've got a Peugeot vintage grinder from the 1930s. Can't be doing with these fancy electric grinders. Keep things nice and simple that's what I think.


----------



## holdtheonions

hotmetal said:


> Be easier to get a Mythos if you want angled burrs, rather than re-engineering the Ceado body I would have thought.


Wouldn't have to re-engineer the body, simply remove the internals and insert in a new body. On this machine the top burr carrier is attached to the grinding chamber which is attached to the motor which is attached to a plate in the bottom of the housing. i.e. the internals are floating inside the housing and can be easily removed. A rubber gasket between the top burr carrier and housing keeps it sealed. Could also easily return it to stock if I wasn't happy with it. Thinkin take me 3-4 days, but not really something need to do though, just be cool to do, so haven't been sufficiently motivated to this point. Would rather someone else read this and try it so I can see how it works without actually doing anything myself ;-) Ok, back on topic...

http://www.kefindustrial.com/urunler/ceado-yedek-parcalari/ceado-e37s-kahve-degirmeni.html


----------



## Gazrob

Here's my grinder. Old school.


----------



## Kilo

It would be nice if NICHE kept us informed on the developments on producing the grinder.

The marketing and sales dept. of NICHE is pretty dominant now.


----------



## ATZ

Kilo said:


> It would be nice if NICHE kept us informed on the developments on producing the grinder.
> 
> The marketing and sales dept. of NICHE is pretty dominant now.


They have, if you're on the mailing list


----------



## slamm

Kilo said:


> It would be nice if NICHE kept us informed on the developments on producing the grinder.
> 
> The marketing and sales dept. of NICHE is pretty dominant now.





ATZ said:


> They have, if you're on the mailing list


I think perhaps what Kilo is saying is what backers are getting from Niche in these emails is mostly marketing. I agree, they are pretty tedious at the moment, but hopefully once the campaign has ended they will have something a bit more interesting and engaging to say about what is after all a really exciting project.


----------



## MWJB

slamm said:


> I think perhaps what Kilo is saying is what backers are getting from Niche in these emails is mostly marketing. I agree, they are pretty tedious at the moment, but hopefully once the campaign has ended they will have something a bit more interesting and engaging to say about what is after all a really exciting project.


Once the funding is out of the way (still a few days to go to attract backers), I would rather they concentrated on building the production grinders to at least the standard of the prototype. I don't know what else they could tell us that would compare to, "Hello, it's June and your grinder is shipping.".


----------



## slamm

MWJB said:


> Once the funding is out of the way (still a few days to go to attract backers), I would rather they concentrated on building the production grinders to at least the standard of the prototype.


Me too, I'm sure there will be some interesting stuff to relate along the way though.. something along the lines of the excellent coverage from Decent and the DE1 development on this very forum.. (well maybe a small fraction of that very generous output would suffice ;-)



MWJB said:


> I don't know what else they could tell us that would compare to, "Hello, it's June and your grinder is shipping.".


Can't argue with that!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Kilo said:


> It would be nice if NICHE kept us informed on the developments on producing the grinder.
> 
> The marketing and sales dept. of NICHE is pretty dominant now.


You have unrealistic expectations.

Let em get in with It.


----------



## Niche Coffee

Recently the Niche Team has been taking the Niche Zero out to well respected coffee shops and roasters (e.g. Edgecumbes Roastery and Southsea Coffee) and we have received wonderful feedback.

This includes : quietness, ease of use, design, in the cup taste, quality of the burrs and grind size variety.

We are excited by how much interest our grinder has received from global forums (especially this one) and coffee enthusiasts.

June 2018 can't come soon enough!


----------



## Kilo

This is what I meant. I already know about the advertised positive points of the grinder. I rather read about how the production is coming along, is there already a new grind cup design? How about the plan to add a portafilter holder? Things like that. This sort of communication shouldn't be delaying production. And keeps me eager to receive the grinder in June 2018. Decent espresso and Xenia are good examples on this form of customer care.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Kilo said:


> This is what I meant. I already know about the advertised positive points of the grinder. I rather read about how the production is coming along, is there already a new grind cup design? How about the plan to add a portafilter holder? Things like that. This sort of communication shouldn't be delaying production. And keeps me eager to receive the grinder in June 2018. Decent espresso and Xenia are good examples on this form of customer care.


And decent are how far behind their original schedule...


----------



## coffeechap

Mrboots2u said:


> And decent are how far behind their original schedule...


Just a little behind !


----------



## tohenk2

Niche Coffee said:


> Recently the Niche Team has been taking the Niche Zero out to well respected coffee shops and roasters (e.g. Edgecumbes Roastery and Southsea Coffee) and we have received wonderful feedback.
> 
> This includes : quietness, ease of use, design, in the cup taste, quality of the burrs and grind size variety.


Maybe it would be an idea to have those shops and roasters put something about it up on the web by themselves?



Niche Coffee said:


> We are excited by how much interest our grinder has received from global forums (especially this one) and coffee enthusiasts.
> 
> June 2018 can't come soon enough!


Since I backed the campaign I can only agree


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## Benjijames28

I would have taken the gamble on one of these if it wasn't for the big wait for delivery. I need a good grinder and this one seems to tick many a box, but I need a grinder now, not next summer.


----------



## ATZ

Benjijames28 said:


> I would have taken the gamble on one of these if it wasn't for the big wait for delivery. I need a good grinder and this one seems to tick many a box, but I need a grinder now, not next summer.


Why not back and get an interim grinder? Can always move either on second hand.


----------



## Syenitic

Benjijames28 said:


> I would have taken the gamble on one of these if it wasn't for the big wait for delivery. I need a good grinder and this one seems to tick many a box, but I need a grinder now, not next summer.


Thought you got a Feldgrind? What makes you so urgent about 'need' now? I use a Feldgrind daily, with aeropress. My consumption from those two far exceeds the home set up, but that is a weekend luxury for me, and not a need.


----------



## thesmileyone

This does look interesting.

There are a few features it is missing for me:

portafilter holder

activation button via portafilter instead of the toggle on the side.

I love my mignon because I can do it all via one hand - the hand holding the portafilter. One criticism with the mignon mk2 that hopefully you might address with the Niche if you add the feature is when doing it this way, the mignon tends to move backwards. It is not heavy enough to counter me pushing the OD button.


----------



## haz_pro

I actually like that it doesn't grind into the portafilter, much prefer just leaving a pot there, flicking the switch and letting it do its thing.


----------



## Dylan

The catch cup likely also plays the part of static dispersion and distribution.


----------



## GingerBen

a magnetic portafilter holder like the sage grinder has could possibly work. Then you can move it out the way if you dont need it. Personally I don't need one so I prefer it how it is, looks cleaner and sleeker


----------



## jlarkin

Guys, guys, I saw a Niche in real life and it was beautiful...

Well OK, it looks like a really nice piece of kit to my mind. I didn't try any drinks with it, but it seems to do exactly what it says on the tin = anyway you should know that from Dave's review and MWJB testing (they know far more than me anyway). I was very impressed with how solid it looks and I think it'll be a nice addition to a kitchen.

Also very nice team of people working on it, had a nice general chat with them.


----------



## kennyboy993

jlarkin said:


> Guys, guys, I saw a Niche in real life and it was beautiful...
> 
> Well OK, it looks like a really nice piece of kit to my mind. I didn't try any drinks with it, but it seems to do exactly what it says on the tin = anyway you should know that from Dave's review and MWJB testing (they know far more than me anyway). I was very impressed with how solid it looks and I think it'll be a nice addition to a kitchen.
> 
> Also very nice team of people working on it, had a nice general chat with them.


Ha ha they are gonna reach their year one targets purely with CFUK buyers at this rate!


----------



## Niche Coffee

jlarkin said:


> Guys, guys, I saw a Niche in real life and it was beautiful...
> 
> Well OK, it looks like a really nice piece of kit to my mind. I didn't try any drinks with it, but it seems to do exactly what it says on the tin = anyway you should know that from Dave's review and MWJB testing (they know far more than me anyway). I was very impressed with how solid it looks and I think it'll be a nice addition to a kitchen.
> 
> Also very nice team of people working on it, had a nice general chat with them.


Thanks for your kind words. Great to meet you at Winchester Coffee School last night. It was great to chat with one of our CFUK backers.


----------



## PaulL

thesmileyone said:


> This does look interesting.
> 
> There are a few features it is missing for me:
> 
> portafilter holder
> 
> activation button via portafilter instead of the toggle on the side.


Yep, I expect that was the first reaction many of us had. Until we realise why, pretty sure @DavecUK covered it in his review.


----------



## Rhys

I kinda think the metal tumbler isn't purposely made for the grinder as it's missing its lid (the thread grooves are there). If they come with lids originally then you could dose beans into them and put aside for the following morning (which I do) and maybe put the lid back on after grinding to give it a shake for distribution. Also is the tumbler neck slightly smaller than a standard portafilter so it can be placed on top, inverted, tapped and you have your ground coffee nicely sitting in the basket.

@fatboyslim has a wine measure clamped the the bag holder on the EK and I find it sits perfectly into the basket of a La Pavoni millennium. After grinding I put my had on the open end and give it a shake - this stops the coffee clinging to the sides. I then turn the portafilter upside down, sit it on top of the wine measure and then invert and tap. When I lift the measure up, it leaves a nice even mound of coffee which tamps with no effort and doesn't need RDT.


----------



## PPapa

@Rhys That tumbler is a dummy chocolate shaker. The plan for production is to make a real one, so it won't have grooves.


----------



## hotmetal

I thought Rhys' idea about a lid to use as bean storage/grind shaker and having the OD sub 58mm very good points though. I wonder if there's already a chocolate shaker or other metal pot that fits the description? I can see a run on ebay for such things, just as the cocktail shakers on ebay doubled in price after everyone started modding SJ dosers.


----------



## Rhys

PPapa said:


> @Rhys That tumbler is a dummy chocolate shaker. The plan for production is to make a real one, so it won't have grooves.


Ah, right. Might be an idea to design one, or find one that fits into a standard basket then. Us Pavoni users will just have to suffer lol


----------



## Rhys

Here's a pic of fatboyslim's EK with the wine measure (OD fits perfectly in my pf basket) Doesn't need to be as fancy as a Lyn Weber blind shaker, but you get the idea.


----------



## Syenitic

Rhys said:


> Here's a pic of fatboyslim's EK with the wine measure (OD fits perfectly in my pf basket) Doesn't need to be as fancy as a Lyn Weber blind shaker, but you get the idea.


All looks freakin amazin...but...where do you make the drink? Get that Major out and brew! I have this phrase in my mind...which will come to me


----------



## tohenk2

Rhys said:


> Here's a pic of fatboyslim's EK with the wine measure (OD fits perfectly in my pf basket) Doesn't need to be as fancy as a Lyn Weber blind shaker, but you get the idea.


Hah! A fellow 10m airpistol enthousiast 

Like DaveP said in the "if you show me yours ..." thread - nice group!


----------



## Rhys

tohenk2 said:


> Hah! A fellow 10m airpistol enthousiast
> 
> Like DaveP said in the "if you show me yours ..." thread - nice group!


Cheers, as a digression........



















Did rubbish and came 5th at the NRSA Eley finals at Bisley the other week..









Upside, in the Yorkshire County A team, and in division 2 for the Yorkshire league and the Cumbria & Northumbria League..


----------



## TomBorealis

I backed the Niche a few days ago. Initially I thought it was a bit over marketed but then I read @DavecUK's review. He really sold it for me. I don;t have a grinder yet so picked up a Feld2 as a stopgap. 2 pre-purchases, I must be mad.

It would be great to hear some details about the 'tooling stage'. I'm always interested in that kind of thing.


----------



## tohenk2

Rhys said:


> Cheers, as a digression........
> 
> Did rubbish and came 5th at the NRSA Eley finals at Bisley the other week..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Upside, in the Yorkshire County A team, and in division 2 for the Yorkshire league and the Cumbria & Northumbria League..


Was there in 2014 with my daughter. She made the finals as well, went out first. What I remember is that in the finals she couldn't see the black at all because of the harsh light.

Ah well. we had a great time! (Are you going to Riac this year or Intershoot maybe?)


----------



## tohenk2

So - back on topic!

What kind of Midnight Black will you be choosing? Gloss, Satin or Matte Black?


----------



## GingerBen

tohenk2 said:


> So - back on topic!
> 
> What kind of Midnight Black will you be choosing? Gloss, Satin or Matte Black?


i votes gloss as it will go better with my other stuff but I'd likely be happy with either.


----------



## PPapa

Matte!


----------



## eddie57

Matte here too


----------



## DavidBondy

Here as well. I'm happy that I decided to pay extra few quid for black but I'm still a bit unsure about black with oak fittings!


----------



## tohenk2

The Strawpoll poll was reported and deactivated (?) and the resulting pie-chart is offline. I wonder what caused this and what will happen now









(?I don't see anything to report? The terms of service seem to apply and be simple and straightforward enough.)


----------



## brabzzz

I'm a little later joining the party, but jumped on the bandwagon too today.

Fingers crossed it delivers in production form, the groundwork appears to be there regarding design


----------



## Rhys

I'm sticking with white, can always spray it I guess.


----------



## Jony

I'm just going to wait, and if all turns out well will get one.


----------



## db8000

I backed them yesterday evening. Within about 2 hours they dropped me a message on twitter (I hadn't @ them, just followed them and tweeted the link to the indiegogo page) to thank me. At least they are attentive and I look forward to news.

I picked the black one.


----------



## Teejay

Just signed up, so now I have the grinder just need a proper espresso machine.

Read most of this thread but backed largely due to @DavecUK comprehensive review.

Too good to be true or too good to miss? The latter I feel.


----------



## TomBorealis

Asking @DavecUK to review it was a great decision. It is what led me to back it too.

Does anyone know what the result of the poll was? I went for matte.


----------



## Phil104

Teejay said:


> Just signed up, so now I have the grinder just need a proper espresso machine.
> 
> Read most of this thread but backed largely due to @DavecUK comprehensive review.
> 
> Too good to be true or too good to miss? The latter I feel.


You've got time to save up and get one before the Niche arrives.


----------



## Scotford

I've been chatting with James Wise about it and he had one for a while and was very impressed, so I guess that speaks volumes.


----------



## jlarkin

I had another opportunity to interact with the Niche grinder and the team behind it.

I think I've mentioned previously but I'm no engineer, however they were kind enough to give me an idea of how they're working on it now to progress and the sheer volume of detailed work which is currently ongoing to try and ensure the grinders are produced right.

I can't give specifics of all that - as it's not my place and it wasn't the purpose of my visit -but on a personal level (having backed it), I still feel reassured that they're working hard to produce this grinder right and that it's progressing well.

I was able to use it for a v60 and some espresso brews and then a chemex. The beans that I'd taken were proving tricky to dial in for espresso but the Niche had plenty of range (as we weren't at the full extent in either direction) and the minimal retention reported is incredible to see in action.

We were weighing the beans into the grinder and then subsequent ground dose out which was getting us the same results reported in the great (and detailed) review from Davec (that summary is great - pretty much always within a bean!).

We had very tasty filter coffee from it and good espresso. As always time goes more quickly than you'd like - but I suspect distribution of grounds is helped with the grinding into the coffee cup, given my time again I'd try to do more espresso. I came home to try the same beans with my EK and Sage DB and ran out of beans after 3 attempts without getting anything that was better than with the Niche and their machine (it'd only been a 250g bag to start with).

I put a little boomerang on instagram today and should get a couple more pictures up in the coming days - nothing too surprising - but if you're interested to see them then they'll be here; https://www.instagram.com/cupperjoe/


----------



## PPapa

Scotford said:


> I've been chatting with James Wise about it and he had one for a while and was very impressed, so I guess that speaks volumes.


The question is whether the production grinders will match the prototype ones, obviously. For whatever reason, I feel a bit worried about it.


----------



## 4085

Oh ye of little faith! You just have to look at Martins background and success rate not to lose any sleep over that!

http://www.ndcltd.co.uk/portfolio/


----------



## Niche Coffee

Thank you to all our supporters and those who have helped on the Niche grinder project. We have really enjoyed reading your comments. All the tooling manufacturing has now been started and we will be getting pre-production parts for testing early 2018.

Looking forward to 2018 and delivering the Niche Zero.

Wishing you all a peaceful Christmas from the Niche Team.


----------



## Roobarb

This looks like a very interesting product. I am always super keen to support British businesses and British design when they have competitive products. Earlier today I had a good coffee at Southsea Coffee who had one of the pre-production Niche One's to test. (Is it no longer there so you can't actually see it there anymore). The cafe owner chatted with me and had very positive impressions from using the test unit. (Meanwhile Southsea's matt black Mahlkonig looked as menacing as the Death Star...)


----------



## AndyJH

I'm really tempted to put some money into this product. Currently have a Sage Smart Pro grinder and I would like a step up. The ex-commercial grinders just don't do it for me although I appreciate they will offer the best results. This seems to be a really nice middle ground of something that will blend into the home but produce really good results. This is my logic for investing into to it, or other suggestions for a good step up from the Sage grinder?


----------



## 4085

AndyJH said:


> I'm really tempted to put some money into this product. Currently have a Sage Smart Pro grinder and I would like a step up. The ex-commercial grinders just don't do it for me although I appreciate they will offer the best results. This seems to be a really nice middle ground of something that will blend into the home but produce really good results. This is my logic for investing into to it, or other suggestions for a good step up from the Sage grinder?


I think it is a safe bet! I had some correspondence this week from Martin, CEO at Niche and he tells me that June is still on track for the release of the grinder


----------



## AndyJH

That's good to know, thanks. Just need to have some self control whilst waiting that long! Really fancy and upgrade of my setup but I know it's not worth upgrading the machine before the grinder.


----------



## Sheena_Lance

it looks good perfect for my office.


----------



## ATZ

dfk41 said:


> I think it is a safe bet! I had some correspondence this week from Martin, CEO at Niche and he tells me that June is still on track for the release of the grinder


I'm actually looking forward to June, be here before we know it!


----------



## Teejay

ATZ said:


> I'm actually looking forward to June, be here before we know it!


Me too, I'm had grinding at the mo and using a Cuisinartm so not ideal but I'm managing 1:2 around the correct timings.


----------



## J_Fo

Hi @dfk41 I'm thinking of pre ordering a niche through Indiegogo, I emailed them to ask about warranty & whether any spec/parts had changed since DaveC's review but haven't heard back as yet (totally understandably, I'm sure it's all hands to deck with the release fast approaching..) I saw you mentioned you'd had some correspondence & was just wondering whether you knew if the grinder had changed at all since Dave reviewed it?

Cheers


----------



## 4085

As far as I know, there are no changes but I cannot say that for certain. If there are any changes then you can assume they are for the better!


----------



## J_Fo

dfk41 said:


> As far as I know, there are no changes but I cannot say that for certain. If there are any changes then you can assume they are for the better!


Thanks man, lightning response!!


----------



## osrix

this must have been asked before, but will there be a stainless or polished version? its all about the shiney!


----------



## 4085

osrix said:


> this must have been asked before, but will there be a stainless or polished version? its all about the shiney!


Not being the spokesperson, so I maybe wrong, but I think the original idea was to bring it to the market i one colour only. This is simply a costing exercise. The more colours you have, the greater the expense and since the idea was to market it without these dearer options, then I do not think SS is an option at this point in time. They have added Black as an option and I am sure if the product takes off then others will follow. So, discounted price now, or full price with colour choice at some point in the future?


----------



## osrix

dfk41 said:


> Not being the spokesperson, so I maybe wrong, but I think the original idea was to bring it to the market i one colour only. This is simply a costing exercise. The more colours you have, the greater the expense and since the idea was to market it without these dearer options, then I do not think SS is an option at this point in time. They have added Black as an option and I am sure if the product takes off then others will follow. So, discounted price now, or full price with colour choice at some point in the future?


Ah fair play, yes I can understand limited options at launch, I suppose I was hoping it may have been mentioned at some point that may be available in the future. I really like the look of it as it stands and it certainly wouldnt stop me from backing it.


----------



## cogent1

There have been such glowing reports about the Niche grinder, that I am strongly tempted to take up the offer of an early production model for £405 via Indiegogo But £400 is as much as I, (a humble home user) can splash out and even then the proverbial pips will squeak!. I can simply not afford £500 for a full production version, especially since nothing is known about what warranty is to be offered, how reliable the grinder is going to prove and how responsive the service is going to be in practice.

I recall seeing the OOMPH coffee maker going through its evaluation and pre-production phases on Indiegogo (or similar). As it entered pre-production, there were many setbacks, causing delivery dates to be put back many times. Eventually of course, that device was successfully marketed, so I would be willing to take a punt on the Niche coming up trumps within a month or two of its delivery times. But in the meantime, backers have to accept the (probably small) risk that the project may go busty substances up at some point. Also, from my reading of the Indiegogo T&Cs, the concessionary models will not carry a warranty of any sort. So I am torn between taking a chance on the Niche, or simply accepting that it is beyond my reach financially.

My feeling is that the full price is going to be too high for people on modest budgets,of which there are large numbers like me, especially as it's an unproven product. I like good coffee and would appreciate a good grinder like the Niche, but I can get an Eureka Mignon on a 3 year warranty for £300, or a new digital Mignon for £355.

I hope the Niche takes off in the US Market and that economies of scale will allow the price to drop to a more modest level in the future.


----------



## Beeroclock

Yes good that the Mignon is (I currently use one at home) it's 50mm burrs are not going to compare to 63mm conical. Apart from that is the retention which isn't particularly good on the Mignon, but the Eureka is didi and that's why my Mazzer SJ lives at work.


----------



## Dylan

cogent1 said:


> There have been such glowing reports about the Niche grinder, that I am strongly tempted to take up the offer of an early production model for £405 via Indiegogo But £400 is as much as I, (a humble home user) can splash out and even then the proverbial pips will squeak!. I can simply not afford £500 for a full production version, especially since nothing is known about what warranty is to be offered, how reliable the grinder is going to prove and how responsive the service is going to be in practice.
> 
> I recall seeing the OOMPH coffee maker going through its evaluation and pre-production phases on Indiegogo (or similar). As it entered pre-production, there were many setbacks, causing delivery dates to be put back many times. Eventually of course, that device was successfully marketed, so I would be willing to take a punt on the Niche coming up trumps within a month or two of its delivery times. But in the meantime, backers have to accept the (probably small) risk that the project may go busty substances up at some point. Also, from my reading of the Indiegogo T&Cs, the concessionary models will not carry a warranty of any sort. So I am torn between taking a chance on the Niche, or simply accepting that it is beyond my reach financially.
> 
> My feeling is that the full price is going to be too high for people on modest budgets,of which there are large numbers like me, especially as it's an unproven product. I like good coffee and would appreciate a good grinder like the Niche, but I can get an Eureka Mignon on a 3 year warranty for £300, or a new digital Mignon for £355.
> 
> I hope the Niche takes off in the US Market and that economies of scale will allow the price to drop to a more modest level in the future.


Normally if someone mentioned they were really stretching their budget at £400 I would say dont even dream of spending that money on KS/Indiegogo. Projects fail, and they fail regularly. Out of 10-15 or so project I have backed I think 4 have failed, and one of those was an outright scam that KS had no interest in dealing with.

Once you learn this you learn to avoid the ones that sound a little more risky, and the ones with inexperienced creators trying to produce something new. Decent Espresso have taken up the mantle of the 'ZPM Espresso' machine, one of Kickstarters big failures - the people who backed that and put down hundreds of pounds were just out of pocket, and there are many other big failures out there that lost people a lot of money. Had the ZPM had John at Decent behind it from the start all those people may have had better luck - although they likely would have paid a more sensible price in the first place, and it may never have been a successful campaign. (as a note, the Decent goes above and beyond what the ZPM promised to do I believe)

All that said, if you read back the previous pages of this topic you will see members pointing out that the Niche has an experienced engineer at its helm, and they are not really attempting to break any new ground here, a grinder is a relatively simple thing to make (not simple *relatively* simple). I would have a good confidence that the Niche will make it to market - *however* if I invested £400 and it went up in smoke it wouldn't be an enormous deal for me, it would sting a bit but I would get over it. If that wasn't the case I wouldn't put down any large sum on any crowdfunding page.


----------



## 4085

cogent1 said:


> There have been such glowing reports about the Niche grinder, that I am strongly tempted to take up the offer of an early production model for £405 via Indiegogo But £400 is as much as I, (a humble home user) can splash out and even then the proverbial pips will squeak!. I can simply not afford £500 for a full production version, especially since nothing is known about what warranty is to be offered, how reliable the grinder is going to prove and how responsive the service is going to be in practice.
> 
> I recall seeing the OOMPH coffee maker going through its evaluation and pre-production phases on Indiegogo (or similar). As it entered pre-production, there were many setbacks, causing delivery dates to be put back many times. Eventually of course, that device was successfully marketed, so I would be willing to take a punt on the Niche coming up trumps within a month or two of its delivery times. But in the meantime, backers have to accept the (probably small) risk that the project may go busty substances up at some point. Also, from my reading of the Indiegogo T&Cs, the concessionary models will not carry a warranty of any sort. So I am torn between taking a chance on the Niche, or simply accepting that it is beyond my reach financially.
> 
> My feeling is that the full price is going to be too high for people on modest budgets,of which there are large numbers like me, especially as it's an unproven product. I like good coffee and would appreciate a good grinder like the Niche, but I can get an Eureka Mignon on a 3 year warranty for £300, or a new digital Mignon for £355.
> 
> I hope the Niche takes off in the US Market and that economies of scale will allow the price to drop to a more modest level in the future.


In other words the reviewers are all wrong then? Have you read the story from start to finish? How long this has been in design for and the fact that Indiegogo was purely used to fund tooling. Stick with a Mignon, I would! How much less than £500 do you want it to be


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> In other words the reviewers are all wrong then? Have you read the story from start to finish? How long this has been in design for and the fact that Indiegogo was purely used to fund tooling. Stick with a Mignon, I would! How much less than £500 do you want it to be


The guy is allowed to have a budget. And things can still go wrong after tooling. Niche is very likely to deliver, but I personally wouldn't be so confident as to see it as a foregone conclusion.


----------



## 4085

You can draw any conclusion you want from data, and we do


----------



## cogent1

Why are you being so antsy because I cannot afford to pay full price for the Niche Grinder? I have read the reviews and I would love to have one at £400 which is my budget limit. I am delighted that a British product is set to take the markets by storm, but regrettably I have to stick with the Mignon because I can not afford anything better. What is wrong with expressing regret that £500 is more than many people can run to and hoping that the price will come down??


----------



## 4085

cogent1 said:


> Why are you being so antsy because I cannot afford to pay full price for the Niche Grinder? I have read the reviews and I would love to have one at £400 which is my budget limit. I am delighted that a British product is set to take the markets by storm, but regrettably I have to stick with the Mignon because I can not afford anything better. What is wrong with expressing regret that £500 is more than many people can run to and hoping that the price will come down??


I was suggesting that at £405 the risk for me anyway, would be outweighed by the potential saving. Like many, I have watched this project grow. I have even had a couple of conversations with their CEO which is why I am convinced it will not fail.....but my points remain valid. I am in no way knocking you on budget. I am saying if I were you I would take that leap of faith and end up with something that will knock spots off a Mignon. I think the Mignon is the best grinder available in its class. if anything, the Niche is underpriced at £500, considering what its reviewers claim it will do. But, if you are not prepared to take any risk, then be careful crossing the road tomorrow


----------



## KTD

Personally I found it almost impossible to talk to anyone there and it put me off, decided to wait it out but it was a close call, As you say £500 will be cheap if goes to plan. Tried various things to get in contact and finally had a response a couple of weeks after I emailed which ignored what I put and told me to refer to the indiegogo terms which they are bound to with no reference points whatsoever. No big deal I guess but not how I like things to be, they are probably working on the important stuff so I won't hold it against them


----------



## ohms

Having backed many, many Kickstarter campaigns I'd be hesitant to back something in this price bracket. Not simply because it may not come to fruition, but simply the 1st iteration of a mass market product and the trials and tribulations that go along with, added to a complete lack of warranty or comeback means it's a £400 punt. I'd be much more comfortable paying a little more in 6 months time when this product has been tried and tested. If it stands up to the rigours of use I'm sure we'll see some clean, used examples before long.

You could argue that even on products by big manufacturers you can be stung by 1st iterations of new products having spent a lot, lot more than £400, which makes a warranty all the more important. That's why I have little qualms buying a new model of car for £50k, or the first full frame mirrorless camera Sony made, I even something like the iPad or iPhone X.

I'm very curious how this product goes - and if they launch a model that looks a little nicer I'd certainly consider.


----------



## mctrials23

I would be a little surprised if the guys making this would tell you to sling your hook if your machine breaks in the first few years but it is a risk. One that I am certainly happy to take for £350


----------



## kennyboy993

So I'm gonna back Niche also - on the site the link takes you its almost like you're investing and not purchasing.

Apologies as I know it's been discussed in this and another thread in detail.

Though to help my small brain and some reading time - could anyone summarise the risk I'd be taking please? I'm assuming in this particular case it's minor to none?


----------



## Banjoman

I'm sure @dfk41 will be able to give you the most complete story, as I think he's met and discussed with the CEO.

My understanding is that we are making an investment, and taking some degree of risk. I think we have little comeback should the venture go belly-up. That said, because of the pedigree of the CEO, I think we are all hopeful this risk is small, but it is still there and any investor should have their eyes open to this. The upside is, all being well, our investment is rewarded with the product all paid for, at a discount to the price available thereafter.

I hope that's fairly accurate, but others please correct if not.


----------



## kennyboy993

Banjoman said:


> I'm sure @dfk41 will be able to give you the most complete story, as I think he's met and discussed with the CEO.
> 
> My understanding is that we are making an investment, and taking some degree of risk. I think we have little comeback should the venture go belly-up. That said, because of the pedigree of the CEO, I think we are all hopeful this risk is small, but it is still there and any investor should have their eyes open to this. The upside is, all being well, our investment is rewarded with the product all paid for, at a discount to the price available thereafter.
> 
> I hope that's fairly accurate, but others please correct if not.


Thanks banjoman makes sense.


----------



## 4085

niche were 85% of the way there before they launched Indiegogo. This funding was for tooling not development. There is a risk attached to everything you do. In this case it is the subsidised price of the grinder. I have no insight or direct line to niche but I would be surprised if the grinder did not come out about on time.

Update 16

We have been very busy over the last 10 weeks designing, manufacturing and commissioning all the Niche Zero tooling, this is a very important stage in the project and it has gone very well.

All the parts have now been received and inspected and are looking very encouraging.

As per our plan, we intend to start building our first 10 x "pre-production grinders" over the next few weeks. These grinders will then be heavily tested by a group of coffee experts and used for international approvals testing.

We are still very much on track to be shipping to you around the end of June.

This was Feb 23rd


----------



## GingerBen

Excited for this! Wonder how many grinders will hit the for sale forum once these are out in the wild?!


----------



## J_Fo

GingerBen said:


> Excited for this! Wonder how many grinders will hit the for sale forum once these are out in the wild?!


This is one of the reasons it took me a while to bite the bullet...









Meant to mention before but I contacted Niche to ask if the grinder had the same design and parts as the prototype and they assured me it's exactly the same. Don't really know what that's worth but seems positive! Really can't wait for it!


----------



## GingerBen

Jon_Foster said:


> This is one of the reasons it took me a while to bite the bullet...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Meant to mention before but I contacted Niche to ask if the grinder had the same design and parts as the prototype and they assured me it's exactly the same. Don't really know what that's worth but seems positive! Really can't wait for it!


it looks great, I can't wait for mine either. There will undoubtedly be a mini surge of grinders for sale once people have got them but there are also plenty who collect grinders and like a spare for example. I'm fairly sure I'll use mine exclusively for espresso rather than switching it around all the time.


----------



## J_Fo

GingerBen said:


> it looks great, I can't wait for mine either. There will undoubtedly be a mini surge of grinders for sale once people have got them but there are also plenty who collect grinders and like a spare for example. I'm fairly sure I'll use mine exclusively for espresso rather than switching it around all the time.


My plan is to sell my Ascaso & my Wilfa & just use the Niche but we'll see how that pans out...


----------



## DavecUK

GingerBen said:


> it looks great, I can't wait for mine either. There will undoubtedly be a mini surge of grinders for sale once people have got them but there are also plenty who collect grinders and like a spare for example. I'm fairly sure I'll use mine exclusively for espresso rather than switching it around all the time.


I think anyone who owns a grinder up to zenith 65E/mazzer Mini E/Super Jolly will be selling them. A few might hang on to one as a spare.....I would probably hang on to my Ceado E92S until I got fed up with it sitting in it's box in the workshop.



Jon_Foster said:


> My plan is to sell my Ascaso & my Wilfa & just use the Niche but we'll see how that pans out...


When I first read this I thought you had written "Wife" and I was going to suggest she would fetch a higher price on e-bay!

I think you will be overjoyed with the Niche...and might even consider selling the wife as well as the two grinders


----------



## CoffeeChris

DavecUK said:


> I think anyone who owns a grinder up to zenith 65E/mazzer Mini E/Super Jolly will be selling them. A few might hang on to one as a spare.....I would probably hang on to my Ceado E92S until I got fed up with it sitting in it's box in the workshop.
> 
> When I first read this I thought you had written "Wife" and I was going to suggest she would fetch a higher price on e-bay!
> 
> I think you will be overjoyed with the Niche...and might even consider selling the wife as well as the two grinders


Will be planning on selling my mazer Major.... Hopefully!


----------



## rdpx

We have been persuaded to wait until the new improved mignons come out next month.

I just read DaveC's review and am thinking these seem like a no brainer, but not sure we can go 5 months with no grinder..!

I wonder if you can do a 5 month rental...


----------



## Jony

I wouldn't be able to wait that long either.


----------



## rdpx

So I'm seriously looking at this now.

What I think might sell it to me is the ability to switch easily and with little faff between using normal and decaff beans.

Am I understanding correctly that you can change grind setting back and forth quite easily and with quite reliable accuracy between two settings?

I also like the idea that if a friend wanted us to grind them something for e.g. a French press, then we could do that and then switch back to where we had it for our espresso grind with ease.

If we don't get this we will be getting one of the new Mignon Specialita when they come out next month. I'm pretty sure what I've just described above is not at all easy on that machine.

Does this seem like I've understood the machines correctly?

Robert


----------



## jlarkin

rdpx said:


> Am I understanding correctly that you can change grind setting back and forth quite easily and with quite reliable accuracy between two settings?
> 
> Does this seem like I've understood the machines correctly?


Yes. You can have a look at the website, the 3rd panel down on that page shows the top open. I think in the production version the numbering might be slightly different but you'd just need to know where you were and then go back to it.

Yes

Joe


----------



## rdpx

jlarkin said:


> Yes. You can have a look at the website, the 3rd panel down on that page shows the top open. I think in the production version the numbering might be slightly different but you'd just need to know where you were and then go back to it.
> 
> Yes
> 
> Joe


Thanks Joe.

The website also says they will be distributing in June, which is a lot better than the August I thought I had seen elsewhere.

R


----------



## jlarkin

rdpx said:


> Thanks Joe.
> 
> The website also says they will be distributing in June, which is a lot better than the August I thought I had seen elsewhere.
> 
> R


NP. I think they haven't given a concrete time. The last info I'd seen was them saying " on track to be shipping around the end of June"


----------



## J_Fo

rdpx said:


> Thanks Joe.
> 
> The website also says they will be distributing in June, which is a lot better than the August I thought I had seen elsewhere.
> 
> R


The earlier pre orders/backings are provisionally down to ship around the end of June, the later ones (the £415 ones) are down as August.


----------



## rdpx

Jon_Foster said:


> The earlier pre orders/backings are provisionally down to ship around the end of June, the later ones (the £415 ones) are down as August.


That makes sense, thanks Jon.


----------



## J_Fo

rdpx said:


> That makes sense, thanks Jon.


No probs


----------



## GingerBen

rdpx said:


> So I'm seriously looking at this now.
> 
> What I think might sell it to me is the ability to switch easily and with little faff between using normal and decaff beans.
> 
> Am I understanding correctly that you can change grind setting back and forth quite easily and with quite reliable accuracy between two settings?
> 
> I also like the idea that if a friend wanted us to grind them something for e.g. a French press, then we could do that and then switch back to where we had it for our espresso grind with ease.
> 
> If we don't get this we will be getting one of the new Mignon Specialita when they come out next month. I'm pretty sure what I've just described above is not at all easy on that machine.
> 
> Does this seem like I've understood the machines correctly?
> 
> Robert


From what I've seen online and read in reviews I think for the money this is going to be very hard to beat in the foreseeable future. I'm actually considering ordering a second for filter coffee lol


----------



## DavecUK

rdpx said:


> So I'm seriously looking at this now.
> 
> 1. What I think might sell it to me is the ability to switch easily and with little faff between using normal and decaff beans.
> 
> 2. Am I understanding correctly that you can change grind setting back and forth quite easily and with quite reliable accuracy between two settings?
> 
> 3. I also like the idea that if a friend wanted us to grind them something for e.g. a French press, then we could do that and then switch back to where we had it for our espresso grind with ease.
> 
> 4. If we don't get this we will be getting one of the new Mignon Specialita when they come out next month. I'm pretty sure what I've just described above is not at all easy on that machine.
> 
> 5. Does this seem like I've understood the machines correctly?
> 
> Robert


1. Yes easily, no faff at all, just put decaff in and at worst the most your likely to get mixing is 0.2 grams, or just over 1 coffee beans worth. Often it will be 0.05 grams, effectively nothing. Of course you might need to tweak the grind level as it's unusual for all beans to grind the same (fortunately a conical seems a little more forgiving in that area (my personal experience).

2. Yes, but big changes in grind may result in slightly different retention/dose variance on the next grind. e.g. if the dose variance was 0.7g and you go very coarse (it might be a bit more or less, when you go back fine again, it might take 1 dose to come back to 0.7g for the same bean. It's still better than anything else I have ever used.

3. Yes

4. If you don't absolutely have to buy a grinder, you might do much better to wait for the Niche. in fact I think you might regret it if you didn't

5. Yes

As for delivery, unless something unforeseen happens, I find it difficult to see any reason why they shouldn't hit their time scales. I need to be careful what I say, but look at update 16 on Indegogo on the Niche and read it carefully. my view would be that they have met all their goals 100% so far and I have no doubt pre production grinders (made from production tooling) are out there for approvals and testing etc..

As always though there is never a guarantee of anything in life...................but some things are more likely to happen than others.


----------



## rdpx

Thank you for a very helpful reply Dave, and one that is full of information that will be included in my forthcoming planning application to my local domestic council, department of approved kitchen works.

It's a rabbit hole this coffee lark, and no mistake!


----------



## ajohn

GingerBen said:


> From what I've seen online and read in reviews I think for the money this is going to be very hard to beat in the foreseeable future. I'm actually considering ordering a second for filter coffee lol


What about grinders like this one. There are a few others at a "similar" price

http://www.myespresso.co.uk/product/m80-grinder-non-doser-electronic-m80e-polished/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIktPx4vT_2QIV6pPtCh177w1jEAYYASABEgLodPD_BwE

I wondered about the Niche but having used a conical burr grinder thought I needed to get the flat burrs out of the way and maybe go conical later.as I do believe that these can be better for weighing beans in.







Can't explain why as "some one" reckons that one of the factors that makes them work rather well that way is incorrect.

John

-


----------



## GingerBen

ajohn said:


> What about grinders like this one. There are a few others at a "similar" price
> 
> http://www.myespresso.co.uk/product/m80-grinder-non-doser-electronic-m80e-polished/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIktPx4vT_2QIV6pPtCh177w1jEAYYASABEgLodPD_BwE
> 
> I wondered about the Niche but having used a conical burr grinder thought I needed to get the flat burrs out of the way and maybe go conical later.as I do believe that these can be better for weighing beans in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't explain why as "some one" reckons that one of the factors that makes them work rather well that way is incorrect.
> 
> John
> 
> -


i don't know anything about it but I suspect as it's not made for single dosing it will have much higher retention as well as be more faff to clean and whilst subjective, is ugly by comparison


----------



## 4085

ajohn said:


> What about grinders like this one. There are a few others at a "similar" price
> 
> http://www.myespresso.co.uk/product/m80-grinder-non-doser-electronic-m80e-polished/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIktPx4vT_2QIV6pPtCh177w1jEAYYASABEgLodPD_BwE
> 
> I wondered about the Niche but having used a conical burr grinder thought I needed to get the flat burrs out of the way and maybe go conical later.as I do believe that these can be better for weighing beans in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't explain why as "some one" reckons that one of the factors that makes them work rather well that way is incorrect.
> 
> John
> 
> -


You should by one, then try to convince us all that it is not really a pile of shite with buttons that pack in very quickly!


----------



## ATZ

ajohn said:


> What about grinders like this one. There are a few others at a "similar" price
> 
> http://www.myespresso.co.uk/product/m80-grinder-non-doser-electronic-m80e-polished/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIktPx4vT_2QIV6pPtCh177w1jEAYYASABEgLodPD_BwE
> 
> I wondered about the Niche but having used a conical burr grinder thought I needed to get the flat burrs out of the way and maybe go conical later.as I do believe that these can be better for weighing beans in.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Can't explain why as "some one" reckons that one of the factors that makes them work rather well that way is incorrect.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I'm also informed that retention is a big issue with these


----------



## db8000

kennyboy993 said:


> So I'm gonna back Niche also - on the site the link takes you its almost like you're investing and not purchasing. Apologies as I know it's been discussed in this and another thread in detail. Though to help my small brain and some reading time - could anyone summarise the risk I'd be taking please? I'm assuming in this particular case it's minor to none?




I have backed the Niche. The fact that DaveC has used the prototype and others have met with the chap behind it, gives me confidence.

If you "invest" in this project, you are effectively buying a product. They write it up as an investment but there's no equity or debt purchased in the company. The Consumer Rights Act applies (as to quality, guarantee etc) and 20% of the money we hand over is VAT even (HMRC treats it as a purchase). In that sense you are protected as much as buying anywhere else. That is good and provides protection if the particular product that anyone receives is a duff one.

What you/we are less protected by is timescales and specification. Those can slip & change. I think we would be entitled to our money back if it didn't arrive within a reasonable period from the stated production timescales - but reasonable in this context will be quite a long time (certainly months not days!).

The biggest risk that I see is that the production model cannot be made for the price or is not of the same quality as the prototype. There is a world of difference between a hand-made prototype and attempting to mass produce something at a profit. If they find that grinder cannot be mass produced to the quality expected at a price that will generate a profit, then what do they do? With the best will in the world, I don't seem them having the money or inclination to hand-make a 'prototype' for all the backers.

This goes wrong in big business too. Gopro produced a drone recently. I bet the prototype was great. The specs certainly were. The finished product was a stinker. They tried to fix it with upgrades but they couldn't and had to scrap the whole project and refund everyone. Gopro can afford that. A small business cannot. That I think is the risk.

This post isn't a downer on it. I've paid my money and I'm excitedly waiting for it.
​
Cheers!

Dave


----------



## Dylan

db8000 said:


> I have backed the Niche. The fact that DaveC has used the prototype and others have met with the chap behind it, gives me confidence.
> 
> If you "invest" in this project, you are effectively buying a product. They write it up as an investment but there's no equity or debt purchased in the company. The Consumer Rights Act applies (as to quality, guarantee etc) and 20% of the money we hand over is VAT even (HMRC treats it as a purchase). In that sense you are protected as much as buying anywhere else. That is good and provides protection if the particular product that anyone receives is a duff one.
> 
> What you/we are less protected by is timescales and specification. Those can slip & change. I think we would be entitled to our money back if it didn't arrive within a reasonable period from the stated production timescales - but reasonable in this context will be quite a long time (certainly months not days!).
> 
> The biggest risk that I see is that the production model cannot be made for the price or is not of the same quality as the prototype. There is a world of difference between a hand-made prototype and attempting to mass produce something at a profit. If they find that grinder cannot be mass produced to the quality expected at a price that will generate a profit, then what do they do? With the best will in the world, I don't seem them having the money or inclination to hand-make a 'prototype' for all the backers.
> 
> This goes wrong in big business too. Gopro produced a drone recently. I bet the prototype was great. The specs certainly were. The finished product was a stinker. They tried to fix it with upgrades but they couldn't and had to scrap the whole project and refund everyone. Gopro can afford that. A small business cannot. That I think is the risk.
> 
> This post isn't a downer on it. I've paid my money and I'm excitedly waiting for it.
> ​
> Cheers!
> 
> Dave


I'm not sure how technically correct you may or may not be, but given that KS/IGG project fail regularly and in a good proportion of these cases the backers outright lose their money it would be foolish to assume that you are in any way protected. There has been some action taken against project creators but only in the case when they have found to be outright deceptive and when large amounts of money are involved.

I backed a project a while back, not much money to me but the creator made about £40k overall. Shortly after photos were up on his facebook of him and his family on a nice holiday (which he took down when commenters mentioned this), he failed to deliver anything to anyone and simply stopped communicating. Many of the backers including myself reported this to the police but nothing came of it. Kickstarter have no method of commutation or way to complain about scams - they do not care. This is but one example of a failed project, there are many more involving much more money.


----------



## ajohn

dfk41 said:


> You should by one, then try to convince us all that it is not really a pile of shite with buttons that pack in very quickly!


It was picked at random for sub mazzer mini prices. There are a few that are cheaper. I wont be buying one to see what make of switches are under the membrane buttons.Pity really as there is a fair possibility that all makers use the same switches. On the other hand maybe they don't.

Where I saw the Niche as being a plus over smaller flat burr grinders is less messing about to get low retention. My Mazzer mini when weighing in is showing about 0.2g loss in output when settings are changed. Tuning so don't know if that will settle down. Only by blowing the residue out though otherwise is would be circa 0.5g that builds up unless the small section of mesh isn't removed. That needs to go anyway to get the loss that low.

So I decided to give the Niche a miss and see what happens with it. Also partly down to the mystique associated with flat burrs so will be trying those for a while.

John

-


----------



## 4085

For me, I do not really hold much beef with the flat v conical burrs for taste. There are a few anomalies to this, such as the Mythos and the EK43. I drink darker roasted beans and always used to have a big conical, along the lines of a Ceado E92, Compak E10 and K10, Compak Pro Barista and really enjoyed the interpretation of flavour with these beans. I often had a decent flat at the same time, such as Compak E8 and K8 fresh, Ceado E37S, fiorenzato F83 and never found them able to compete, but, the Mythos always did. I am really excited about the Niche for a number of reasons. I am not bothered about single dosing or retention but these are two of the main things it offers. I am more excited about the small size and the conical burr set and fully expect this to be up there with the best of them. At £350 which is the price I bought in at, it has to be the steal of the century. As a side thought, and I am not being snotty or trying to offend at all, experience has taught me to upgrade to the best available grinder, rather than take something lower end/lower middle end and try to tweak it into something. I could grow a beard in the time a Mazzer Mini takes to grind 18 gms!


----------



## Rob1

You can get low retention even with large flats but that doesn't mean that you should. When single dosing a Ceado E8 you pulse all but 0.2g out, of course then you're single dosing and the grind is nowhere near as good as when you put a weight on the beans which requires a dose to be maintained above the burrs. This means you can't pulse to clear out the grinds and you also increase retention of beans that have been partially broken. If you want to get the best grind from the majority of flats you need a weight on the beans as they grind (I believe this a consensus with exception of the EK43 and Mythos) which increases retention from 0.2-0.5g to 2.5-3.5g (on the Ceado E8) for the aforementioned reason (and the Ceado has a very small chamber around the burrs in which grinds collect). So a large conical like the Niche or Pharos which allows single dosing doesn't so much mean 'less messing around to get low retention' as it means 'no messing around to get almost zero retention WITHOUT compromising grind quality'.


----------



## Nopapercup

dfk41 said:


> At £350 which is the price I bought in at, it has to be the steal of the century.


It will be if as @db8000 said the grinder we receive is as good as the prototype. I'm in so I'm hoping it is but after my experience with the Aergrind I'm not getting my hopes up.


----------



## ajohn

I don't think Niche have taken on an impossible task so this sort of funding is probably safer for buyers than other things that have gone the same way. Burrs for instance may well have been copied from an existing grinder. Sort of mute point in some ways. I did buy one small conical burr grinder where they had clearly screwed that up - feed rates too high so the whole lot choked up at finer settings. Poor grind clearance as well so heavy clumping. Looked the business but not too good for espresso.








What I am currently doing really is comparing a decent flat burr grinder with Sage's offering. A review of those weighing beans in would read very similar to Dave's Niche in terms of the various aspects of retention but the numbers would differ - output though +/- 0.1g and often the same. I'm not totally convinced that this would be the same for all beans. Hard to say because when beans are changed there is a settling down period and to make that aspect more difficult I've changed machine so need to sort my tuning out again. I am getting pretty sold on weighing in though. It's a lot easier than maintaining the output of a timed grinder to the levels I have found I need.

There is a review of the retention of a number of grinders on youtube, 7 I think - Mini the worst stated as 3.5g. One thing I will say about it here is that is that I have found nothing remotely like that high. I fact it seems to be pretty good at flinging grounds out. I'd be surprised if it was that high with the hopper on as well.

There is in my case 2 other reasons for not buying a Niche at the moment. Time to delivery and the fact that I like a project for my metal working gear. I may go down the make my own route in the Autumn based around Mazzer conical burrs.







Clones probably.

John

-


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> What I am currently doing really is comparing a decent flat burr grinder with Sage's offering. A review of those weighing beans in would read very similar to Dave's Niche in terms of the various aspects of retention but the numbers would differ - output though +/- 0.1g and often the same.


Well, this is easy to test with some 0.01g scales. Weigh in 10 doses, then weigh the output.

A lot of 0.1g scales only show rises in increments of 0.3g, so not many can be used for this test.


----------



## ajohn

MWJB said:


> Well, this is easy to test with some 0.01g scales. Weigh in 10 doses, then weigh the output.
> 
> A lot of 0.1g scales only show rises in increments of 0.3g, so not many can be used for this test.


My scales do show 0.1 increments and may shift by that amount as single beans are adder. They also have specified accuracy and linearity. They also track the weight of a series of £1 coins perfectly. They were supplied pre calibrated as well.

What I have found when weighing in is variation anytime a setting is changed or the bean is changed. As I am currently fiddling with that I can't expect consistency. When I haven't been fiddling with it results were as stated. Many the same as what went in. A lot more than 10 as well.

John

-


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> Many the same as what went in. A lot more than 10 as well.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Well, then you know what it is & don't need to use phrases like "would". The answer would likely also read to at least 2 decimal places, even if measured to 0.1g.


----------



## Rob1

Have you measured this retention after cleaning out the grinder including sweeping under the burrs? Have you also measured your exchange of old grinds with new from this retention figure? Weight in an out is weighing for consistency not retention.


----------



## les24preludes

ajohn said:


> There is a review of the retention of a number of grinders on youtube, 7 I think - Mini the worst stated as 3.5g. One thing I will say about it here is that is that I have found nothing remotely like that high. I fact it seems to be pretty good at flinging grounds out. I'd be surprised if it was that high with the hopper on as well.
> 
> -


I have a Mini doser and retention is fine as long as you use the lens hood mod. This blows a chunk of grinds straight out of the funnel from the burr chamber, and that's where a lot of the 3.5g essentially comes from. All these statistics from unmodified grinders don't fully resemble how people are actually using them. Using what amounts to compressed air to clear out grinds is so obvious you wonder why this isn't incorporated into any of the domestic models.


----------



## thesmileyone

I want one but I have been burnt with KS before when you get scammed they don't care as they have their cut, like most large US companies. I would rather wait even if that means paying £700 retail for instance. Plus that money is in my hands instead of KS and the creators and you can't make more money from money you don't hold.

I hope this product works out, single dosing is 100% what I need now.


----------



## ajohn

les24preludes said:


> I have a Mini doser and retention is fine as long as you use the lens hood mod. This blows a chunk of grinds straight out of the funnel from the burr chamber, and that's where a lot of the 3.5g essentially comes from. All these statistics from unmodified grinders don't fully resemble how people are actually using them. Using what amounts to compressed air to clear out grinds is so obvious you wonder why this isn't incorporated into any of the domestic models.


I'll probably start a thread on what I do with mine, A Niche thread isn't really the place to discuss it - only mentioned due to why I didn't buy a Niche also emphasising the what could be called faffing about to get a flat burr grinder to weigh in well. Also grinder pricings. As an aside Sage cropped up - no mods at all but there is room for improvement. Again not a sensible place to discuss that aspect of them.

John

-


----------



## db8000

thesmileyone said:


> I want one but I have been burnt with KS before when you get scammed they don't care as they have their cut, like most large US companies. I would rather wait even if that means paying £700 retail for instance. Plus that money is in my hands instead of KS and the creators and you can't make more money from money you don't hold.
> 
> I hope this product works out, single dosing is 100% what I need now.


This isn't a scam, they clearly have a working prototype. I agree insofar that I don't think I'd touch a crowdfunding project at an earlier stage unless it was a known company.


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Have you measured this retention after cleaning out the grinder including sweeping under the burrs? Have you also measured your exchange of old grinds with new from this retention figure? Weight in an out is weighing for consistency not retention.


And of course the key number is the one for exchange! I feel I can say it's a key term, because I defined it (first) properly along with putting my 3 hapencethworth on definitions for the other 2 parameters.


----------



## db8000

To follow up on my thoughts on risk:

if if I only had £400 to spend on a grinder, I'd buy something else.

if I only had £550 ish to spend on a grinder, I'd wait and buy the Niche at retail.

if I was lucky enough to be able to be able to afford to lose the £385 at this stage and can buy another grinder if Niche doesn't make it, I'd back Niche now.

I've only been at this coffee game since January. I am fortunate enough to have been able to back Niche and buy a Mignon to plug the gap. I had intended to sell the Mignon when the Niche arrived. But now I can see the need for two (French press & espresso) so maybe I won't...


----------



## kennyboy993

Db - as a true single doser you should be able to swap from espresso to french press on the niche easily?

I have a mignon too and have backed Niche. If the production models are as per the prototype that Dave received then as a grinder without a hopper I can't see a use case for 2 grinders?

It really does seem to be all things to all men


----------



## db8000

It's not retention etc that concerns me about changing the grind size. It's getting it spot on straight away. Not good if it takes three drinks to fine tune it each time.

The mignon does does a pretty good job at single dosing. It's just fiddly to get the grind "just so" for espresso.

Having said that, I bought a feldgrind on here for my cafetière use. So it maybe superfluous still...


----------



## kennyboy993

db8000 said:


> It's not retention etc that concerns me about changing the grind size. It's getting it spot on straight away. Not good if it takes three drinks to fine tune it each time.
> 
> The mignon does does a pretty good job at single dosing. It's just fiddly to get the grind "just so" for espresso.
> 
> Having said that, I bought a feldgrind on here for my cafetière use. So it maybe superfluous still...


I hear what you're saying - for new beans I often need to trial and error.

Though for beans or blends I know well I'm pretty spot on with my mignon and even if I'm slightly out I'll pull the shot long or short depending if I'm above or below right grind and then just tweak/note it for next time?

For example with rave chatsworth I know exactly where I need to be and even how to tweak the grind to compensate for how long after roast date...... then again it is a forgiving blend 

I've backed niche fully intending to sell my trusty and faithful servant mignon to recoup some costs


----------



## DavecUK

kennyboy993 said:


> I hear what you're saying - for new beans I often need to trial and error.
> 
> Though for beans or blends I know well I'm pretty spot on with my mignon and even if I'm slightly out I'll pull the shot long or short depending if I'm above or below right grind and then just tweak/note it for next time?
> 
> For example with rave chatsworth I know exactly where I need to be and even how to tweak the grind to compensate for how long after roast date...... then again it is a forgiving blend
> 
> I've backed niche fully intending to sell my trusty and faithful servant mignon to recoup some costs


It's a good idea to keep a simple chart for different coffees. Split the grind levels into Coarse, std and fine...you can use more subdivisions if you want. Then mark std on the grinder.

Group the different coffees as you find them into the chart. so you might have Brazilian under coarse, Nicaraguan under std, El Salvador under fine etc.., it does depend a little on roast level. Once you add different coffees under the broad categories eventually you will know which way to go and where to start for any coffee. I use a little chart like this to dial in most coffees within 1 or 2 shots.


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> It's a good idea to keep a simple chart for different coffees. Split the grind levels into Coarse, std and fine...you can use more subdivisions if you want. Then mark std on the grinder.
> 
> Group the different coffees as you find them into the chart. so you might have Brazilian under coarse, Nicaraguan under std, El Salvador under fine etc.., it does depend a little on roast level. Once you add different coffees under the broad categories eventually you will know which way to go and where to start for any coffee. I use a little chart like this to dial in most coffees within 1 or 2 shots.


Thanks Dave. That's gotta be better than my current method of grinding the first shot on the setting of the previous bean then guessing the adjustment required. Will have to give it a go.


----------



## DavecUK

Just a little update guys. I rather lost track of the Indegogo stuff on the Niche, partly because I had some other projects on the go. However, Martin did contact me to ask if I still wanted to look at a grinder built from production tooling. This is effectively the final production grinder, as it will be produced from exactly the same tooling. Not a prototype. It has had a few changes from the prototype, all improvements. Fit and finish is better, vibration (which was small in the first place) is reduced, the motor sounds smoother and even quieter. Clearances and tolerances are tighter and the burr mounting mechanism has been standardised which means a variety of 63mm burrs and clones will fit the grinder....but why would you want to!

All prototype recommendations have been acted upon and the burrs are absolutely the ones that performed so well in ALL the tests, totally meets with my approval. In fact I don't believe you could find a better 63mm burr for this grinder!....refreshing to know that there is no thought of saving money in this critical area. Grind quality seems on a par or better than the prototype, but of course these burrs are still being broken in and I would think it will be at its peak in consistency and grind quality once it has ground around 10kg. Now when you get your Niche grinders, you don't need to go and grind 10kg through it as the grind quality it great but it will get even better the more you use it. Burr life is in excess of 750kg, so if you use a Kg a week, schedule a burr change in 25 years time! For me I will probably be gumming my way through a soft boiled egg by then









I have really just been using it...like a normal person. My E92 is shoved towards the back of the counter and I have not used it since the Niche arrived last Wednesday morning. So anyone worried it might not be as good as the prototype....it's better. Niche themselves appear to have met every milestone. Martin said there a few things he still wanted to tweak, one is some minor modifications to the lettering for grind level markings and the purpose made 58mm grinds cup needs to have a higher polish internally. Other than those few things (which are being sorted out) everything else seems ready to rock and roll. *One would guess they could probably start production sooner and deliver earlier....I asked about this and Martins view was to have the final grinder out in the field for a while and absolutely ensure nothing had been missed and no problems were experienced before starting production....a wise move.*



*
*A few photos, but of course you have seen these before in the prototype. The figures for retention, exchange and dose consistency are similar to the prototype and in some instances (certain coffees) much better. All of these will continue to improve as the burrs break in.

The grinder...mostly looks the same..



*
*











*
*The Inside after grinding a LOT for 6 days. There was a little more than that off the burrs, screwholes etc.. In total about 0.8g. Most of this of course remains trapped in the grinder and doesn't mix/exchange with coffee being ground. These areas just fill up over the first 3 or 4 grinding sessions.The burr mounting system has been improved slightly, as it's a finished product which makes inserting the burrs a little easier, as if it wasn't easy enough before. The fit is a little tighter, so removal I find a little more tricky, as it's harder to get that outer burr out...but that's a good thing.

*
*













*
All cleaned up*



*
*











*
**I have been very busy with another project as well today, so these were very hurried snaps on my phone and I forgot to set the autofocus....I will upload some better photos in a few days.*

*
*


----------



## Nopapercup

This is great news, thanks Dave. Can't wait to get mine!!


----------



## J_Fo

Thanks @DavecUK that's absolutely great to hear, I'm really becoming aware of the limitations to my current grinder so I'm counting down the days....


----------



## kennyboy993

Great update Dave - just the news we were looking for. Christ I'm gonna be like a kid at Christmas come delivery time


----------



## ATZ

DavecUK said:


> Just a little update guys. I rather lost track of the Indegogo stuff on the Niche, partly because I had some other projects on the go. However, Martin did contact me to ask if I still wanted to look at a grinder built from production tooling. This is effectively the final production grinder, as it will be produced from exactly the same tooling. Not a prototype. It has had a few changes from the prototype, all improvements. Fit and finish is better, vibration (which was small in the first place) is reduced, the motor sounds smoother and even quieter. Clearances and tolerances are tighter and the burr mounting mechanism has been standardised which means a variety of 63mm burrs and clones will fit the grinder....but why would you want to!
> 
> All prototype recommendations have been acted upon and the burrs are absolutely the ones that performed so well in ALL the tests, totally meets with my approval. In fact I don't believe you could find a better 63mm burr for this grinder!....refreshing to know that there is no thought of saving money in this critical area. Grind quality seems on a par or better than the prototype, but of course these burrs are still being broken in and I would think it will be at its peak in consistency and grind quality once it has ground around 10kg. Now when you get your Niche grinders, you don't need to go and grind 10kg through it as the grind quality it great, but it will get even better the more you use it. Burr life is in excess of 750kg, so if you use a Kg a week, schedule a burr change in 25 years time! For me I will probably be gumming my way through a soft boiled egg by then
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have really just been using it...like a normal person. My E92 is shoved towards the back of the counter and I have not used it since the Niche arrived last Wednesday morning. So anyone worried it might not be as good as the prototype....it's better. Niche themselves appear to have met every milestone. Martin said there a few things he still wanted to tweak, one is some minor modifications to the lettering for grind level markings and the purpose made 58mm grinds cup needs to have a higher polish internally. Other than those few things (which are being sorted out) everything else seems ready to rock and roll. *One would guess they could probably start production sooner and deliver earlier....I asked about this and Martins view was to have the final grinder out in the field for a while and absolutely ensure nothing had been missed and no problems were experienced before starting production....a wise move.*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *A few photos, but of course you have seen these before in the prototype. The figures for retention, exchange and dose consistency are similar to the prototype and in some instances (certain coffees) much better. All of these will continue to improve as the burrs break in.
> 
> The grinder...mostly looks the same..
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *The Inside after grinding a LOT for 6 days. There was a little more than that off the burrs, screwholes etc.. In total about 0.8g. Most of this of course remains trapped in the grinder and doesn't mix/exchange with coffee being ground. These areas just fill up over the first 3 or 4 grinding sessions.The burr mounting system has been improved slightly, as it's a finished product which makes inserting the burrs a little easier, as if it wasn't easy enough before. The fit is a little tighter, so removal I find a little more tricky, as it's harder to get that outer burr out...but that's a good thing.
> 
> *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> All cleaned up*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *
> **I have been very busy with another project as well today, so these were very hurried snaps on my phone and I forgot to set the autofocus....I will upload some better photos in a few days.*
> 
> *
> *


Brilliant Dave. I too am now eagerly awaiting June!


----------



## Jony

So all you on the fence will now be happy.


----------



## coffeechap

Jony said:


> So all you on the fence will now be happy.


If you want a conic, wish someone would develop a flat at this price point.


----------



## Rhys

Sounds good to me. Now my dilemma is, do I stay with the white or change it to black to match my other 'stuff'. White would suit our lasses house where I can use it for brewed..


----------



## fatboyslim

Rhys said:


> Sounds good to me. Now my dilemma is, do I stay with the white or change it to black to match my other 'stuff'. White would suit our lasses house where I can use it for brewed..


I love how the picture associated with this thread on tapatalk features Dorice


----------



## Jony

Rhys said:


> Sounds good to me. Now my dilemma is, do I stay with the white or change it to black to match my other 'stuff'. White would suit our lasses house where I can use it for brewed..


Buy both and I will take the one you don't use.


----------



## ATZ

coffeechap said:


> If you want a conic, wish someone would develop a flat at this price point.


Would the difference even be noticeable?


----------



## ashcroc

coffeechap said:


> If you want a conic, wish someone would develop a flat at this price point.


A minimythos would be nice & should keep retention down.


----------



## Rhys

Jony said:


> Buy both and I will take the one you don't use.


Don't tempt me.. Although I don't like the wood with the black, I'd have to stain it darker or paint it..


----------



## steveholt

coffeechap said:


> If you want a conic, wish someone would develop a flat at this price point.


And my flat and conic 'internal debate' is, do I keep my Ceado E37 as my flat when I have the Niche as my conic, or will a 63mm conic be that much universally better than a 64mm flat for someone who likes lighter roast espressos?


----------



## DavecUK

steveholt said:


> And my flat and conic 'internal debate' is, do I keep my Ceado E37 as my flat when I have the Niche as my conic, or will a 63mm conic be that much universally better than a 64mm flat for someone who likes lighter roast espressos?


Well your not comparing apples with apples, a 63mm conic has a much larger grinding area than a 64mm flat, which needs to be factored in, as well as the simpler workflow......However only you can decide these things.


----------



## coffeechap

Until we get some data on extraction yields for espresso done with the Niche then who knows? From personal experience it is difficult to push the yields on a conic and still get really tasty shots with lighter roasts on a conic, that said you can still get good shots from lower yields.

User experience backed up with data will ultimately show what the Niche is made of. I sincerely hope it lives up to expectations.


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> User experience backed up with data will ultimately show what the Niche is made of. I sincerely hope it lives up to expectations.


I think what will be important is the users own perception of the experience and taste. For too long the only option has been to have a large commercial grinder in the kitchen, or pay £1000s for esoteric kit with a rather involved work flow. *I like you hope it works out well, because the coffee community really needs something more suitable for home use*, fits easily in any kitchen at an affordable price without compromising on quality. I thought the Vario at one time was going to deliver that, sadly it didn't. My interest has always been in things which improve the experience for users and make things more accessible (which is a relative term)

I am sure you will get your hands on a Niche in June and can have a good chance to try it out, I sincerely hope your experience will be a positive one, as I do for everyone who has sprung for a Niche Grinder.


----------



## PaulL

What's an extraction yield and why is it relevant for the target market for the Niche?


----------



## MWJB

PaulL said:


> What's an extraction yield and why is it relevant for the target market for the Niche?


It's the amount of your dose that is dissolved into the cup (how efficient the brew process has been). I don't think there is any suggestion that the Niche would be abnormal in this respect.

People will buy the Niche because of its size, price, simplicity. Almost no one buys a grinder because of its extraction yield (unless it's an EK-43), extraction yield will vary at the same brew ratio because of other factors like origin & roast level.


----------



## coffeechap

MWJB said:


> It's the amount of your dose that is dissolved into the cup (how efficient the brew process has been). I don't think there is any suggestion that the Niche would be abnormal in this respect.
> 
> People will buy the Niche because of its size, price, simplicity. Almost no one buys a grinder because of its extraction yield (unless it's an EK-43), extraction yield will vary at the same brew ratio because of other factors like origin & roast level.


Strictly that's not true, burr manufacturers are now developing high yield burrs which people are retro fitting to many different grinders and oddly enough I haven't seen any conic ones!

I do agree that the appeal of the Niche is simplicity size and efficiency, however why do you dismiss the yield capability of a grinder?


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> Strictly that's not true, burr manufacturers are now developing high yield burrs which people are retro fitting to many different grinders and oddly enough I haven't seen any conic ones!
> 
> I do agree that the appeal of the Niche is simplicity size and efficiency, however why do you dismiss the yield capability of a grinder?


I'm not dismissing the yield capability of the grinder. We know it's single dose, gravity fed conical, not flat, not auger fed, not hopper fed. So what is available for flat grinders is moot. Surely we can only expect it to operate within normal parameters for the design?

It would seem a bit of a leap to state that the Niche might not be capable of averaging normal yields? You said you had experience of this, care to share?

I'm interested in these high yield burrs though, maybe start a thread about them.


----------



## coffeechap

I have no experience of the Niche whatsoever only you and dave can share the extraction yields of that grinder coupled to how they tasted at those yields for espresso!

It is well documented on many threads that conics tend to produce better coffee within a lower yield band (which I am fairly confident you already know) and that pushing the yield, that typically a lighter roast may benefit from more can produce not tasty espresso from the conics, yet burr sets like those in the mythos for example can achieve better (subjective I know) results.

Ssp are developing high yield burrs for various grinders and early indications from users are very positive. Perhaps this will spur more development in burr design but agree this is for a different thread.


----------



## Nikko

coffeechap said:


> Strictly that's not true, burr manufacturers are now developing high yield burrs .....


Can you please share what are the physical attributes of high extraction yield burrs and the ensuing coffee grinds?


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> I have no experience of the Niche whatsoever only you and dave can share the extraction yields of that grinder coupled to how they tasted at those yields for espresso!
> 
> It is well documented on many threads that conics tend to produce better coffee within a lower yield band (which I am fairly confident you already know) and that pushing the yield, that typically a lighter roast may benefit from more can produce not tasty espresso from the conics, yet burr sets like those in the mythos for example can achieve better (subjective I know) results.
> 
> Ssp are developing high yield burrs for various grinders and early indications from users are very positive. Perhaps this will spur more development in burr design but agree this is for a different thread.


You say that as if flats & conics inhabit different bands. Sure some (non-EK) flats can hit higher yields than some conicals, but there's probably a lot of overlap & differing conditions. If the Mythos hits higher EYs then that's objective, only whether you like it or not is subjective. The Mythos is auger fed. Seems only fair to compare the Niche with other single dose, gravity fed grinders. I don't think anyone is suggesting selling a Mythos to 'upgrade' to Niche.


----------



## MWJB

Nikko said:


> Can you please share what are the physical attributes of high extraction yield burrs and the ensuing coffee grinds?


Fewer big particles.


----------



## jeebsy

Compak are selling their new range with optional 'high yield' burrs.


----------



## 4085

Who can see the parallels between coffee equipment and washing powder? In the sixties, you had washing powder, closely or so followed by liquid, tablets, liquid tablets, rock crystals etc etc. Do any of them actually work any better than the originals? I just think personally, that whilst it is impossible to argue with the boffins and scientists, it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to walk into a coffee shop and taste a shot, commenting, wow, I really like the high extraction ratio of this coffee. Have you by any chance fitted high yield burrs to it......I am sure the reply would be, shut the door on the way out you tosser.......

ANOTHE EXAMPLE OF COFFEE BOLLOCKS BY DFK


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> If you want a conic, wish someone would develop a flat at this price point.


The flat would be slightly tricky in terms of chamber clearance and of course ability to grind at lower speeds. As I am sure you know the flats simply wouldn't work well at the very slow speeds of the Niche due to lack of centrifugal force to move things through the burrs. Augers are common and help with feed. With the conic burr shape, much slower speeds can be used very effectively. The slower speeds reduce many of the issues associated with single dosing and grind quality etc..

Could a domestic style 75 or 80mm flat be developed at this price point, possibly. The torque characteristics might make it difficult to keep the size down and the will would have to be there from the grinder manufacturers. It would still have to run fast, probably 900 rpm plus. This means less reduction, more torque issues so larger motor and then as the grind speed goes up the single dosing grind quality issues start to rear their head. I was watching some Vids on the inclined flat burr grinders...the esoterica and I think once the speed was wound down they had issues...

The design criteria of the Niche, sort of dictated it used conical burrs....hopefully I am not giving too much away here to help competitors, because there are other "technologies" I can't speak about....but it's one of those things where form (and internal design) follows functional requirements. In a way the Niche almost couldn't have been anything else.


----------



## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> Who can see the parallels between coffee equipment and washing powder? In the sixties, you had washing powder, closely or so followed by liquid, tablets, liquid tablets, rock crystals etc etc. Do any of them actually work any better than the originals? I just think personally, that whilst it is impossible to argue with the boffins and scientists, it is highly unlikely that anyone is going to walk into a coffee shop and taste a shot, commenting, wow, I really like the high extraction ratio of this coffee. Have you by any chance fitted high yield burrs to it......I am sure the reply would be, shut the door on the way out you tosser.......
> 
> ANOTHE EXAMPLE OF COFFEE BOLLOCKS BY DFK


You can tell extractions on the low side, they're sour/tart/sharp, it's noticeable... get past that & as long as you're happy. Be happy, or spend more on what you want.


----------



## jlarkin

dfk41 said:


> ANOTHE EXAMPLE OF COFFEE BOLLOCKS BY DFK


Don't be so hard on yourself, you raise an interesting point.


----------



## coffeechap

MWJB said:


> You say that as if flats & conics inhabit different bands. Sure some (non-EK) flats can hit higher yields than some conicals, but there's probably a lot of overlap & differing conditions. If the Mythos hits higher EYs then that's objective, only whether you like it or not is subjective. The Mythos is auger fed. Seems only fair to compare the Niche with other single dose, gravity fed grinders. I don't think anyone is suggesting selling a Mythos to 'upgrade' to Niche.


And here is where the defensive crowd start getting muddled, I am not suggesting the Niche is compared to a mythos, I merely said I wish a manufacturer could develop a flat with the higher yield burrs at this price point ( but do not suppose it will happen) I was referring to the taste of the higher extraction yield shots as that is not to everyone's taste and is subjective.

LET ME BE CLEAR I hope he Niche is a success


----------



## 4085

jlarkin said:


> Don't be so hard on yourself, you raise an interesting point.


Coffeebollocks is a long held belief of mine and revolves around the theory that there are lots of little things you can do that cannot really be argued with, but make microscopic differences to taste


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> And here is where the defensive crowd start getting muddled, I am not suggesting the Niche is compared to a mythos, I merely said I wish a manufacturer could develop a flat with the higher yield burrs at this price point ( but do not suppose it will happen) I was referring to the taste of the higher extraction yield shots as that is not to everyone's taste and is subjective.
> 
> LET ME BE CLEAR I hope he Niche is a success


I like you Dave think we can all lose when people become defensive and not objective. I think both of us have said quite clearly that we would like to see the Niche become a success. Why not it's a UK company, paying UK taxes and producing grinders...this has to be a good thing, especially if the grinder appears to work well, be a great size for the home user and at a fair price. OK I am patriotic, but I have never made a secret of that.

You correctly say it's all going to be subjective, what tastes good to one person may not suit another. A grinder suitable for one person may not be suitable for someone else. Will the Niche be the right grinder for everyone of course not....you can't please all of the people all of the time and if you could, what a boring world the coffee world would be. I am just glad that more competition and choice comes into the market...the products that are good will flourish and those that are not will be consigned to the past. I am sure we can all remember machines and grinders that didn't keep up and simply disappeared from the coffee world conciousness e.g, Isomac Zaffiro, once a respected widely talked about machine, now pretty much forgotten, along with the Izzo Vivi etc..

My post was really just to let people know hey, it's here from production tooling, working at least as well as the prototype, they seem to be hitting all the targets. Testing is ongoing (as it should be). Hopefully giving those Indegogo backers a little more information to go on. on a personal note, *I was pleased to see the burrs that performed best on testing are in the grinder and that I couldn't have recommended a better choice for a 63mm burr, because apart from the sheer quality, the (very clever) burr design is such that they simply can't load up infinitely,* and hence I was never able to stall them no matter how hard a bean I put through. When I tested them Torque/Power rises to an acceptable level and simply never goes higher....a super desirable characteristic for a grinder. Had Baratza been able to do the same, they would have had a lot less problems.


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> And here is where the defensive crowd start getting muddled, I am not suggesting the Niche is compared to a mythos, I merely said I wish a manufacturer could develop a flat with the higher yield burrs at this price point ( but do not suppose it will happen) I was referring to the taste of the higher extraction yield shots as that is not to everyone's taste and is subjective.
> 
> LET ME BE CLEAR I hope he Niche is a success


I'm not a crowd, nor am I being defensive.


----------



## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> *....., because apart from the sheer quality, the (very clever) burr design is such that they simply can't load up infinitely,* and hence I was never able to stall them no matter how hard a bean I put through. When I tested them Torque/Power rises to an acceptable level and simply never goes higher....a super desirable characteristic for a grinder. Had Baratza been able to do the same, they would have had a lot less problems.


From memory, are they not the same burrs as in a Mazzer Kony? I think you will find that all burrs cannot load up infinitely - so why make it a "special" feature.


----------



## Syenitic

got to say the last 3 pages have made good reading...thanks chaps


----------



## J_Fo

I'm enjoying this, punchy yet educational


----------



## DavecUK

Nikko said:


> From memory, are they not the same burrs as in a Mazzer Kony? I think you will find that all burrs cannot load up infinitely - so why make it a "special" feature.


I don't believe I wrote or implied those things. I never said "all" burrs, nor did I state it was a "special" feature unique to the Niche did I. I just stated it was a super desirable characteristic....which it is.

*Your statment is also incorrect, because if you were correct one set of burrs in testing wouldn't have locked up when the others didn't*... One set wouldn't have drawn more and more power as the loading increased, when the other set reached a max power draw (that was technically acceptable) and stayed there, whilst the others drew more and more power as I went finer. You can load some burrs up infinitely (e.g. locking point) and if not to a locking point, a loading far in excess of what you ever want. Baratza vario, jams stripped belts, broken link, jammed Mignons, and in tests the other burrs loaded up so high they stalled the grinder.. if the beans are very hard and are drawn in, then they will start to load up the burrs, unless the design is such that as material backs up it prevents more coming in to load the burrs, you have problems with light roasts.

Hope that clarifies things for you


----------



## KTD

DavecUK said:


> I don't believe I wrote or implied those things. I never said "all" burrs, nor did I state it was a "special" feature unique to the Niche did I. I just stated it was a super desirable characteristic....which it is.
> 
> *Your statment is also incorrect, because if you were correct one set of burrs in testing wouldn't have locked up when the others didn't*... One set wouldn't have drawn more and more power as the loading increased, when the other set reached a max power draw (that was technically acceptable) and stayed there, whilst the others drew more and more power as I went finer. You can load some burrs up infinitely (e.g. locking point) and if not to a locking point, a loading far in excess of what you ever want. Baratza vario, jams stripped belts, broken link, jammed Mignons, and in tests the other burrs loaded up so high they stalled the grinder.. if the beans are very hard and are drawn in, then they will start to load up the burrs, unless the design is such that as material backs up it prevents more coming in to load the burrs, you have problems with light roasts.
> 
> Hope that clarifies things for you


That's all very well but would you let a kid go toilet in the middle of a class?


----------



## 4085

KTD said:


> That's all very well but would you let a kid go toilet in the middle of a class?


he is going to go though is he not.....the question is on the floor or in the toilet


----------



## DavecUK

KTD said:


> That's all very well but would you let a kid go toilet in the middle of a class?


I would....but not in the middle of the class....I would prefer they left the class and made their way to a suitable place. e.g. a proper toilet block, front seat of your car etc..


----------



## Nikko

DavecUK said:


> I don't believe I wrote or implied those things. I never said "all" burrs, nor did I state it was a "special" feature unique to the Niche did I. I just stated it was a super desirable characteristic....which it is.
> 
> *Your statment is also incorrect, because if you were correct one set of burrs in testing wouldn't have locked up when the others didn't*... One set wouldn't have drawn more and more power as the loading increased, when the other set reached a max power draw (that was technically acceptable) and stayed there, whilst the others drew more and more power as I went finer. You can load some burrs up infinitely (e.g. locking point) and if not to a locking point, a loading far in excess of what you ever want. Baratza vario, jams stripped belts, broken link, jammed Mignons, and in tests the other burrs loaded up so high they stalled the grinder.. if the beans are very hard and are drawn in, then they will start to load up the burrs, unless the design is such that as material backs up it prevents more coming in to load the burrs, you have problems with light roasts.
> 
> Hope that clarifies things for you


Glad we agree that the Niche burrs are no different to other burrs in that they do not load up infinitely. The reason the second burr set locked up was because it was more aggressive than the first set and the motor was just not powerful enough for it. Mumbo jumbo not needed to explain it.


----------



## 4085

Nikko said:


> Glad we agree that the Niche burrs are no different to other burrs in that they do not load up infinitely. The reason the second burr set locked up was because it was more aggressive than the first set and the motor was just not powerful enough for it. Mumbo jumbo not needed to explain it.


They are not Niche burrs......they are market available burrs that Niche happen to use


----------



## Nikko

You are right - they are the same burrs as in Mazzer Kony. Should have written "the burrs in the Niche".


----------



## DavecUK

Nikko said:


> Glad we agree that the Niche burrs are no different to other burrs in that they do not load up infinitely. The reason the second burr set locked up was because it was more aggressive than the first set and the motor was just not powerful enough for it. Mumbo jumbo not needed to explain it.


Again I didn't say that or agree with you, quite the opposite. However further discussion with you is probably pointless.


----------



## rdpx

Only 2 white ones left in the current offer.

No takers on this round of black ones so far...


----------



## kennyboy993

The black ones are the dogs I think - let's hope they eventually offer them in the same Porsche colours as eureka do with the mignons


----------



## BaggaZee

Now that I have a Vesuvius Nero, I wish I'd ordered a Black one (feet can be stained darker). Not enough to delay delivery though. Excited now!


----------



## DavecUK

BaggaZee said:


> Now that I have a Vesuvius Nero, I wish I'd ordered a Black one (feet can be stained darker). Not enough to delay delivery though. Excited now!


I must admit I do like the black, having seen one in the flesh....but then I like the white as well....


----------



## rdpx

BaggaZee said:


> Now that I have a Vesuvius Nero, I wish I'd ordered a Black one (feet can be stained darker). Not enough to delay delivery though. Excited now!


You could always try emailing them, if you're lucky they might do you a straight swap with no delay?


----------



## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Compak are selling their new range with optional 'high yield' burrs.


So the other optional is less yield burrs..... Desirable


----------



## CageyH

rdpx said:


> Only 2 white ones left in the current offer.
> 
> No takers on this round of black ones so far...


I am doing my best to resist....


----------



## MildredM

CageyH said:


> I am doing my best to resist....


I don't think you need anyone to tell you . . . Resistance is futile


----------



## 4085

Makes me wonder what all the Monolith Conic owners might make of this once the Niche hits the field and is being used in earnest.......


----------



## Jony

Not happy more than likely.


----------



## billt

They won't be worried; it's 4 times as expensive so the Niche must be rubbish.


----------



## MildredM

dfk41 said:


> Makes me wonder what all the Monolith Conic owners might make of this once the Niche hits the field and is being used in earnest.......


LOLOL

If all else fails it will make an excellent paperweight


----------



## MildredM

Jony said:


> Not happy more than likely.


Happiness is a state of mind. I don't intend to change mine


----------



## rdpx

rdpx said:


> Only 2 white ones left in the current offer.
> 
> No takers on this round of black ones so far...


1 white left

1 black now taken - 4 to go...!

I wonder if they will add another load at the same price if they sell out...?


----------



## BaggaZee

rdpx said:


> You could always try emailing them, if you're lucky they might do you a straight swap with no delay?


True, he can only say no!


----------



## kennyboy993

BaggaZee said:


> True, he can only say no!


'No' means you'd get a response from them - good luck


----------



## BaggaZee

dfk41 said:


> Makes me wonder what all the Monolith Conic owners might make of this once the Niche hits the field and is being used in earnest.......


Is it really going to be in the same company? That would be impressive.

Reading between the lines (to a considerable degree), I take it from this that the Monolith Flat would still be a justifiable purchase to accompany the niche, what with it having flat burrs.









*pre-orders are about to open again and it's renewed my lust for this grinder. Not this time, but maybe some time soon...


----------



## GingerBen

BaggaZee said:


> Is it really going to be in the same company? That would be impressive.
> 
> Reading between the lines (to a considerable degree), I take it from this that the Monolith Flat would still be a justifiable purchase to accompany the niche, what with it having flat burrs.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *pre-orders are about to open again and it's renewed my lust for this grinder. Not this time, but maybe some time soon...


Until somebody runs them side by side or somebody who knows the monolith inside out gets a Niche we won't know for sure. No doubt @MildredM will have one ordered soon


----------



## DavecUK

The thing I really like about the Niche is the work-flow. First the Kafatek Monolith flat...it looks a fine grinder, very very impressive. love the kitchen and minimalist apartment. The guy looks much cleaner and tidier than me.






For the lazy man in me it's the difference that keeps my life simple and doesn't seem to sacrifice the quality of the shot. However, if you like the complication and ritual, then don't get a niche, because it is simply weigh, tip in and flip the switch, for some there is no fun in that!


----------



## coffeechap

Dave trust you to find the most ridiculous Kafatek workflow on the web, that is nothing like how I used kine


----------



## MildredM

coffeechap said:


> Dave trust you to find the most ridiculous Kafatek workflow on the web, that is nothing like how I used kine


LOLOLOL me neither!! A faffer of the highest degree!


----------



## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> Dave trust you to find the most ridiculous Kafatek workflow on the web, that is nothing like how I used kine


I just did a search and it was the first one that came up. Nothing more sinister than that....it looked a nice video, but as you say a bit involved...


----------



## DavecUK

Ah, perhaps you right Dave, I found some others on youtube.









All these gems came up on the same search term






Just so I am being fair to all expensive grinders


----------



## coffeechap

Shame I did not do one for my workflow, as it was a lot simpler. What I would say was there were no spritzers from a 15g VST from the kafatek flat


----------



## GingerBen

Do you not subscribe to the distribution theory involving everything from cocktail sticks to expensive spiny things Dave or do the grinds from the Niche genuinely not need more than a tap and go?


----------



## MildredM

Here's my flat routine tonight


----------



## DavecUK

GingerBen said:


> Do you not subscribe to the distribution theory involving everything from cocktail sticks to expensive spiny things Dave or do the grinds from the Niche genuinely not need more than a tap and go?


I find they don't seem to need anything TBH, I use an 18g VST dosed with 18g....it's pretty much fine every time. On the odd occasion there is a poor looking shot, but rarely and usually when the coffee is 7+ plus weeks old. Or is oldish and the last bit in a jar that the bag has been decanted into. in those circumstances it's slightly less reliable (not a huge amount more), but still does a great job. The technique is meant to be place the grind cup on the portafilter and invert it....but I am not very good at that and usually tip it in with my PF ring in place. I would imagine using the proper technique would mix the grinds up by virtue of inverting it?

In fairness, the Videos are meant to be light hearted and really were not specially selected, it's just what comes up. The Niche is not competing with the Monolith, EG1, Terranova or similar (I've not had the pleasure of using them) and never intended to. As far as I am concerned it was designed to solve some problems that dog big commercial grinders (used in the home) to some extent depending on design and user modification....these are all generalisations and *some, but not all* apply to commercial grinders (of which I've used quite a few):


Large size

poor at single dosing

Never designed for home use

relatively large retention (depending on type), some can be 4g others can be 40g

dose consistency can be quite variable, even with a doser

quite expensive for similar grind quality, or even for inferior grind quality (e.g. Zenith 65E)

The amount of exchange (coffee) is unknown, but usually much larger

More complex design and electronics


When you come to grinders specifically designed for home use e.g. Mignon Atom, K3, Vario etc..(not the esoterica), I don't believe anything will come remotely close to the Niche.....So companies like Bella Barista will have a bit of a job on their hands selling those grinders, sure a Mignon will be £150-£200 cheaper depending on model, but how many will buy them when they can get a Niche and it be a grinder they really don't have to upgrade from unless they want to treat themselves to esoterica like a Monolith or EG1 etc.... Now I have already warned Bella Barista about the difficulty of selling the normal home grinders once the Niche availability is out there....and they like me realise, you can't uninvent an idea.

I hope that other grinders will catch up and start making better grinders for the consumer....but until then I suspect Niche will be king of that particular market sector.

Now all this is just my thoughts and I expect people to be very sceptical.....I am quite excited about seeing them roll out, because then we can see what the owners say.....I also love to see game changers in the market. When I and Bella Barista had finished working with Izzo on the Duetto, it was indeed king of the prosumer dual boilers for a long time and changed the face of the market for ever....unfortunately my involvement ceased with the first 2 models and Izzo basically sat on their thumb and made dumb changes for years until they realised the rest of the market had bypassed them...a market that in many cases where I was working with competing manufacturers. Now I never share manufacturers ideas with other manufacturers, but you always take experience with you. I don't know how long my involvement with the new and innovative will continue as far as machines grinders and roasters go....but it's been an interesting ride for the past 13 or 14 years.









Most of the money was either donated to charity or invested in Kit e.g. the last roasting course I did was money towards a Gimbal, I've bought cameras, thermal probes and other doodads all so I can experiment and of course time becomes more precious. I rarely now get involved with the ordinary stuff, just don't have the will for it anymore. I prefer the new, innovative or personally interesting. As coffee itself is a drink I enjoy, but not an obsession, I want the easiest way to make a quality drink. My obsession is the learning, the challenge in something new. Hence why I loved doing the Niche stuff and the Piggy centre were able to treat lots of piggies. I next have to see the cats protection right at Woking (unless the cat eats the piggies)







.

P.S. I should mention unless it's already obvious, the Niche will make a fantastic cupping and taste testing grinder at Roasteries and I suppose be ideal for mobile Barista training.


----------



## coffeechap

MildredM said:


> Here's my flat routine tonight


Wow that looks complicated !


----------



## GingerBen

Great post dave thanks for sharing your thoughts. I'm new to this game but learning fast and looking forward to my own niche arriving but also to see what those with far more experience make of it. Just out of interest really as what I think of it is what ultimately matters to me but I'm hopeful to say the least. Time will tell.

Any game changer in a market has got to be a good thing. Those that want to try and compete will be forced to be innovative which is a win win for the consumer. Those that don't will either fall away or more likely settle in their market segment and tip along


----------



## ohms

MildredM said:


> LOLOLOL me neither!! A faffer of the highest degree!


Man, that was such a hard watch! Rename the boy Faffer McFafferson.

The best bit though? After all that he performs the worst, uneven, overly powerful tamp. No words.


----------



## DavecUK

ohms said:


> Man, that was such a hard watch! Rename the boy Faffer McFafferson.
> 
> The best bit though? After all that he performs the worst, uneven, overly powerful tamp. No words.


Don't be cruel...he could be watching. I thought I was very complimentary and diplomatic.....the other key thing to remember, that was a year ago and ....he will have completed his next shot by now and will no doubt have shortened/improved his technique.


----------



## Kyle T

I just went to the Indiegogo site and clicked the link to @DavecUK's review. I also checked out the youtube videos. I was so impressed with the review that i've backed one of the black niche zero's!! and I wasn't even in the market for a grinder, in fact i love my Sette 270W but since its been showing signs of shutting down (again!) and with the niche sounding and looking so good (plus the fact its made in England) i figured i'd go for it. Cannot wait to try it.


----------



## ohms

DavecUK said:


> Don't be cruel...he could be watching. I thought I was very complimentary and diplomatic.....the other key thing to remember, that was a year ago and ....he will have completed his next shot by now and will no doubt have shortened/improved his technique.


I wonder if it took him the entire year to complete that single shot, or...

If that gent is indeed watching - hello! Come say hi.


----------



## rdpx

Kyle T said:


> I just went to the Indiegogo site and clicked the link to @DavecUK's review. I also checked out the youtube videos. I was so impressed with the review that i've backed one of the black niche zero's!! and I wasn't even in the market for a grinder, in fact i love my Sette 270W but since its been showing signs of shutting down (again!) and with the niche sounding and looking so good (plus the fact its made in England) i figured i'd go for it. Cannot wait to try it.


Only two black ones left now!

White sold out.

I wonder if they'll do another run with same or slightly increased price...?


----------



## NickR

I know I'm a very shallow person, but I wish Niche had looked at the Monolith for styling inspiration. It did not need to look like a regular kitchen appliance. Its not going to sell to Mr Average.


----------



## Rhys

NickR said:


> I know I'm a very shallow person, but I wish Niche had looked at the Monolith for styling inspiration. It did not need to look like a regular kitchen appliance. Its not going to sell to Mr Average.


The design lends itself to be easily wiped down I'd say, which is more kitchen friendly. And personally I don't like the look of Kafetec's grinders which is why I haven't bought one (and wasn't interested in trying one at the Rave day)

To me, being kitchen friendly is the main concept as that's where it's aimed for and 'Mr Average' is more likely to buy a Niche than a commercial grinder. Other's may have a different opinion.


----------



## coffeechap

Rhys said:


> To me, being kitchen friendly is the main concept as that's where it's aimed for and 'Mr Average' is more likely to buy a Niche than a commercial grinder. Other's may have a different opinion.


This is totally why the average person will buy this grinder, it will blend in with most other kitchen appliances, will much more likely pass the "it's not going in my kitchen test". Is value for money and not a cumbersome brute of a grinder


----------



## fenix

Sorry, what?? You think the average person will buy a £400-500 grinder because it looks nice in the kitchen? Mr or Mrs average drinks nescafe and saves the azera for the weekend. If they really like coffee they have a nespresso and aeropress. Its only wombles like us that have modded gagia classics and commercial grinders with bits of camera accessory bolted to the top of them, then well off or truly dedicated wombles have expensive exotica that doesn't need modding to be useful at home. I use a modified RR45 at home, and its still pretty bad at single dosing, but that's going to be well beyond what Mr average would spend on anything to make coffee.

I count myself as interested in Niche, possibly sell some stuff to get one. Machine wise the PID classic gives me coffee I like, its the faff of the grinder that is annoying, annoying enough to sell the grinder and some other stuff, do a load of overtime, that's the question.


----------



## coffeechap

fenix said:


> Sorry, what?? You think the average person will buy a £400-500 grinder because it looks nice in the kitchen? Mr or Mrs average drinks nescafe and saves the azera for the weekend. If they really like coffee they have a nespresso and aeropress. Its only wombles like us that have modded gagia classics and commercial grinders with bits of camera accessory bolted to the top of them, then well off or truly dedicated wombles have expensive exotica that doesn't need modding to be useful at home. I use a modified RR45 at home, and its still pretty bad at single dosing, but that's going to be well beyond what Mr average would spend on anything to make coffee.
> 
> I count myself as interested in Niche, possibly sell some stuff to get one. Machine wise the PID classic gives me coffee I like, its the faff of the grinder that is annoying, annoying enough to sell the grinder and some other stuff, do a load of overtime, that's the question.


How on earth do you account for the amount of sage dual boilers that have been sold, certainly not solely to folk on here, or how many la pavonis, Gaggia classics have been sold around the world. These are average joe purchases and I think marketed correctly the Niche will appeal as an easy to use grinder to achieve everything coffee related with minimal fuss. "we" the batshit crazy bunch will probably appreciate the virtues of a simple single dosing grinder, far more than average joe.


----------



## JayMac

Niche mentioned in their latest update (18) that @DaveUK got a manufacturing line preproduction model and it was as good as the prototype, if not better. Dave, does that mean you determined it was running what your original review called Burr A, not Burr B. Thanks and sorry if I missed an obvious update somewhere.


----------



## Rob1

They're using the burrs he recommended detailed a few pages back.


----------



## rdpx

I'm hoping that they will quickly offer some non-wood alternatives to the oak trim bits.


----------



## JayMac

Right thanks. Not sure how I missed that as Dave even put it in bold. Thanks for pointing that out, Rob (in your 666 post, no less.)


----------



## PaulL

I had fun today, Dave came round and brought a friend. I'll post more when I have more time but suffice to say the Niche is:

kitchen friendly, high quality, superb result, clever design and simplicity for us as users without resorting to the beasts we have had no choice but to buy until now (assuming Niche is finally launched of course), small, easy to use, easy to disassemble and clean, great tasting, staggring in its lack of retention and exchange for a home-user. All shots were produced on my Verona.

I did not join the thread listing who had backed it but I was one of the first on the list. Personally I like the white finish, black did not bother me, nor chrome, nor pearlescent, nor multi-coloured, not rosewood, mahogany, bamboo or any other finish of wood. A joy to see the legendary burrs in the flesh as I had never handled them before.

Niche & Verona

  

Niche & Ceado E37s

  

Here's another thought for you, not everyone wants to own expensive espresso equipment and go to all the hassle. When people ask me if having good coffee at home is expensive my answer is usually, no but espresso is. Also when I ask myself what my desert isalnd coffee set-up would be I say great beans, great grinder, simple machine every time over poor beans, cheap grinder and esoteric machine.


----------



## Stanic

looks great!


----------



## ATZ

PaulL said:


> I had fun today, Dave came round and brought a friend. I'll post more when I have more time but suffice to say the Niche is:
> 
> kitchen friendly, high quality, superb result, clever design and simplicity for us as users without resorting to the beasts we have had no choice but to buy until now (assuming Niche is finally launched of course), small, easy to use, easy to disassemble and clean, great tasting, staggring in its lack of retention and exchange for a home-user. All shots were produced on my Verona.
> 
> I did not join the thread listing who had backed it but I was one of the first on the list. Personally I like the white finish, black did not bother me, nor chrome, nor pearlescent, nor multi-coloured, not rosewood, mahogany, bamboo or any other finish of wood. A joy to see the legendary burrs in the flesh as I had never handled them before.
> 
> Niche & Verona
> 
> 
> 
> Niche & Ceado E37s
> 
> 
> 
> Here's another thought for you, not everyone wants to own expensive espresso equipment and go to all the hassle. When people ask me if having good coffee at home is expensive my answer is usually, no but espresso is. Also when I ask myself what my desert isalnd coffee set-up would be I say great beans, great grinder, simple machine every time over poor beans, cheap grinder and esoteric machine.


It looks tiny in comparison to the Caedo!


----------



## Syenitic

ATZ said:


> It looks tiny in comparison to the Caedo!


Sure does.

Something no-one mentions, or has to my recollection. The ceado will dump its grinds out in 5 seconds or so, Niche looks to be quite a bit longer (like the monolith?), Is this an issue for folks?

My own thoughts on this - I like the no wait, move on and pour.

Do all good things, really, come to those that wait?


----------



## Rob1

You aren't grinding directly into the portafilter so whatever prep you do like flushing the group, preheating cups, getting the scales out etc can all be done while the grinder is running. The Ceado will grind 18g in about 8 seconds but then you've got to purge, dump old grinds, sweep the worktop etc.


----------



## Rhys

Now, I don't know if it's been tried @DavecUK - does the tumbler supplied fit into a 58mm basket? i.e. invert the pf and place over the tumbler then turn over and tap to level before removing it.

I found that when I borrowed fatboyslim's EK, the wine measure he uses to clamp onto the chute fitted perfectly into a La Pavoni Millenium portafilter. I could put the pf over it, turn back over and give it a good shake to distribute.


----------



## GaryG




----------



## billt

Syenitic said:


> Something no-one mentions, or has to my recollection. The ceado will dump its grinds out in 5 seconds or so, Niche looks to be quite a bit longer (like the monolith?), Is this an issue for folks?
> 
> My own thoughts on this - I like the no wait, move on and pour.


Having looked at the videos, that's bothering me slightly too.

I'm using an Olympus 75e, 3 seconds for 14g straight into the portafilter, no messing with RDT, needles or whatever. Although I've ordered a Niche, thinking that it might be a simple and straightforward grinder to use, it's looking rather slow and a bit fussy.

I just want my coffee, slow rituals aren't for me!


----------



## Rhys

billt said:


> Having looked at the videos, that's bothering me slightly too.
> 
> I'm using an Olympus 75e, 3 seconds for 14g straight into the portafilter, no messing with RDT, needles or whatever. Although I've ordered a Niche, thinking that it might be a simple and straightforward grinder to use, it's looking rather slow and a bit fussy.
> 
> I just want my coffee, slow rituals aren't for me!


How long does it take to boil a kettle to make a cup of instant?


----------



## PPapa

billt said:


> Having looked at the videos, that's bothering me slightly too.
> 
> I'm using an Olympus 75e, 3 seconds for 14g straight into the portafilter, no messing with RDT, needles or whatever. Although I've ordered a Niche, thinking that it might be a simple and straightforward grinder to use, it's looking rather slow and a bit fussy.
> 
> I just want my coffee, slow rituals aren't for me!


Do you not need to purge every morning, adjust the timer and weigh the output?

I'm on E37s and it's fast as well (currently 5.3s for 18g), but that's certainly not what's most important for me. I used to handgrind for espresso a while ago.


----------



## ashcroc

Rhys said:


> How long does it take to boil a kettle to make a cup of instant?


So long I'm considering getting one of those instant boilung water taps!


----------



## PaulL

I watched some youtube videos of exotic grinders yesterday and could have cooked a meal in the time it took to grind a basket full, all seeming to use double baskets whiuch I don't really understand, is it because final shots are less flattering with a single basket unless technique is spot on or maybe because a double is assumed to be the done thing, I don't know.

From memory the Niche grind speed is 1g per second, I know it's quoted on their Indigogo page. 5s vs 11s for a 10g to 12g single shot is immaterial for me, if 10s or less vs 20s (give or take) bother someone then then shouldn't buy the Niche. Of course, they will spend that and more with metal pins, cocktail sticks, mini-whisks and all manner of things that had me laughing. I don't know about you guys but with what is considered a faffless workflow my 'normal' friends have still considered me a complete geek for years. They never refuse a coffee though, hypocritical SOBs...


----------



## 4085

I think a lot of inexperience of grinders is showing here. I love the taste that a conical burr set gives on my darker roasted beans, but the big minus is retention. A Ceado E92 or equivalent Kony, E10 will retain 15 to 30grams. In context, you make an adjustment to grind, and at 15 grams that means you do not taste that adjustment until 2 shots time. This is the reason I binned my K10 fresh. It was fantastic but I was throwing coffee away!

For Niche to be able to eliminate that wastage, plus offer true single dosing for the masses, with a small downsize that it grinds more slowly is baffling to me. Have you ever tried to single dose a Ceado E92....it is a ridiculous regime to have to go through, so come on please.....lets have a little engagement of brain before the doubters surface to tell us of their insignificant worries


----------



## ATZ

dfk41 said:


> I think a lot of inexperience of grinders is showing here. I love the taste that a conical burr set gives on my darker roasted beans, but the big minus is retention. A Ceado E92 or equivalent Kony, E10 will retain 15 to 30grams. In context, you make an adjustment to grind, and at 15 grams that means you do not taste that adjustment until 2 shots time. This is the reason I binned my K10 fresh. It was fantastic but I was throwing coffee away!
> 
> For Niche to be able to eliminate that wastage, plus offer true single dosing for the masses, with a small downsize that it grinds more slowly is baffling to me. Have you ever tried to single dose a Ceado E92....it is a ridiculous regime to have to go through, so come on please.....lets have a little engagement of brain before the doubters surface to tell us of their insignificant worries


Or you have to bin an extortionate amount of single origin coffee...

The low retention is it's biggest plus IMO.

Complaining about 10s in already intricate workflows seems at best, pulling a straws to me.


----------



## malling

DavecUK said:


> The thing I really like about the Niche is the work-flow. First the Kafatek Monolith flat...it looks a fine grinder, very very impressive. love the kitchen and minimalist apartment. The guy looks much cleaner and tidier than me.


Seriously 

He is overthinking it, this is a classic example of how not to do it. I would never grind directly into a basket with a SD grinder or standard grinder modded/used for SD for that matter. This video clearly demonstrates why.

Grind into a separate vessel, shake it or stir it and pour the grind into the basket, give it some gently tabs on the side to distribute it nicely this is what I have done for ages and it works.

As i recall some have examined the impact of scooping grinds out, vertical tabs on the counter, stockfletch (and similar finger distribution) and the outcome where less ideal.

However you could do what Mildred dos, WDT in the PF, then you can skip the separate vessels


----------



## J_Fo

Syenitic said:


> Sure does.
> 
> Something no-one mentions, or has to my recollection. The ceado will dump its grinds out in 5 seconds or so, Niche looks to be quite a bit longer (like the monolith?), Is this an issue for folks?
> 
> My own thoughts on this - I like the no wait, move on and pour.
> 
> Do all good things, really, come to those that wait?


I don't know very much about grinders at all unfortunately, very much starting to learn but doesn't that Caedo cost almost 4 times as much as the Niche?


----------



## Nopapercup

Wow you guys must have some seriously busy lives if you're worrying about how many seconds your grinder takes to grind 18g.


----------



## ATZ

malling said:


> Seriously
> 
> He is overthinking it, this is a classic example of how not to do it. I would never grind directly into a basket with a SD grinder or standard grinder modded/used for SD for that matter. This video clearly demonstrates why.
> 
> Grind into a separate vessel, shake it or stir it and pour the grind into the basket, give it some gently tabs on the side to distribute it nicely this is what I have done for ages and it works.
> 
> As i recall some have examined the impact of scooping grinds out, vertical tabs on the counter, stockfletch (and similar finger distribution) and the outcome where less ideal.
> 
> However you could do what Mildred dos, WDT in the PF, then you can skip the separate vessels


This is exactly what I do.

Grind into basket, WDT, tamp. 9/10 shots are great.


----------



## malling

I guess for some people every second counts, but personally I rather have a proper prepared coffee than a sluggish one, however that dos take a few extra seconds, but it is well worth it.

But then again I don't have a 9-5 job.


----------



## 4085

I suspect that most prospective purchasers are used to flat burr grinders that tend to have pretty high spin speeds and of course chuck the coffee out. There is no relationship between spin speed, timing and decent quality output. the Ceado E92 which is well over 2 grand new spins at 240 revs pm....


----------



## Rhys

malling said:


> Seriously
> 
> He is overthinking it, this is a classic example of how not to do it. I would never grind directly into a basket with a SD grinder or standard grinder modded/used for SD for that matter. This video clearly demonstrates why.
> 
> Grind into a separate vessel, shake it or stir it and pour the grind into the basket, give it some gently tabs on the side to distribute it nicely this is what I have done for ages and it works.
> 
> As i recall some have examined the impact of scooping grinds out, vertical tabs on the counter, stockfletch (and similar finger distribution) and the outcome where less ideal.
> 
> However you could do what Mildred dos, WDT in the PF, then you can skip the separate vessels


I grind directly into the portafilter with my Versalab. and that is a single dosing grinder with a pf clamp. I still have to distribute the grinds though so not as good as a normal on demand like a mythos etc. But then again I don't mind faffing about, it's part of the fun..


----------



## pj.walczak

Caeado costs 4 times more but this is different class of grinder. Commercial vs domestic. You pay for durability, for speed, for being able to survive busy coffee shop and barrista in rush. Grind quality is only one of many features commercial grinder has to provide. So will Caeado provide 4 times better grind quality. No. Will it grind 4 times faster, last 4 times longer in coffee shop? Yes. So I would never say Caeado is overpriced. You just pay for different features, not necessarily that important in domestic kitchen.

Second thing is on demand vs single dosing. It is completely different workflow. You cannot compare them easily. Both approaches are valid, depending what you need, how much and how often you drink, how many coffes in the row.

For me, I plan to use Mythos as my primary on demand grinder, and use Niche once per day to try different coffes.

By the way is anyone planning to use Lynn Webber Blind Tumbler with Niche? Will it fit?


----------



## 4085

The E92 will grind more slowly than the Niche as the rpm is lower......the E37S which is flat will grind considerably faster......if you have a choice of grinder, then surely the one you use the most will be determined by taste and ease of use.....the Mythos is my favourite grinder but if the Niche workflow is as easy s it seems, and the taste is better certainly on dark roasted, then why bother?


----------



## MildredM

I think grind time matters when at the end of it you've got boulders/static/spurtle everywhere, and then after all that the shot is poor too. I disliked waiting for my Mini Mazzer (and the noise too) whereas I don't mind 10-20s plus (depending on rpm) grinds on the flat (6ish on the coni). Besides, I am usually pulling the first shot while the second is grinding (2 p/f's) or gazing out the window wondering if it ever going to stop raining!


----------



## MildredM

There's a cracking vid on Insta this morning from The Barn, Berlin, of some super speedy EK43 single dosing (for a cupping session).


----------



## matharon

Must disagree about E92 retention.

Single dose (36g for two doubles) down a short aluminium tube which is then "blown" through with a close fitting cylinder pumped up and down a few times while grinder still running.

Pretty much zero retention similar to DaveC original method although I "blow" a bit harder and catch all in a small plastic beaker and then split weight.

Also have a Niche on order and will be interested to compare with E92 as both slow speed conicals which suit my preference for med/darker blends especially Chatswood through a Vesuvius.


----------



## ATZ

matharon said:


> Must disagree about E92 retention.
> 
> Single dose (36g for two doubles) down a short aluminium tube which is then "blown" through with a close fitting cylinder pumped up and down a few times while grinder still running.
> 
> Pretty much zero retention similar to DaveC original method although I "blow" a bit harder and catch all in a small plastic beaker and then split weight.
> 
> Also have a Niche on order and will be interested to compare with E92 as both slow speed conicals which suit my preference for med/darker blends especially Chatswood through a Vesuvius.


Don't you feel that is a big mod/massive PITA for a grinder of the value of a E92?

Obviously it wasn't designed for that application, but still.


----------



## ashcroc

matharon said:


> Must disagree about E92 retention.
> 
> Single dose (36g for two doubles) down a short aluminium tube which is then "blown" through with a close fitting cylinder pumped up and down a few times while grinder still running.
> 
> Pretty much zero retention similar to DaveC original method although I "blow" a bit harder and catch all in a small plastic beaker and then split weight.
> 
> Also have a Niche on order and will be interested to compare with E92 as both slow speed conicals which suit my preference for med/darker blends especially Chatswood through a Vesuvius.


So you've modified your E92 to combat the retention you're disagreeing about.....


----------



## matharon

No - bought used without hopper specifically for single dosing low/no retention after advice from both Daves


----------



## Grahamg

I think grind speed probably wouldn't be an issue, forget your current routine, you won't be holding a pf there waiting, you'd be grinding into the container whilst you give your basket a quick wipe, put cup on scales, dig your milk out fridge, and a whole host of other things.... And if the review is anything to go by you probably won't be faffing with stirrers, whisks, runes or dowsing rods.


----------



## billt

Rhys said:


> How long does it take to boil a kettle to make a cup of instant?


Brewista kettle 3'30", in which time I will have made the espresso, cleaned the equipment and have drunk the espresso.

Normal kettle 1'40", time enough to make the espresso but not to clean the equipment.


----------



## Nopapercup

matharon said:


> Also have a Niche on order and will be interested to compare with E92 as both slow speed conicals which suit my preference for med/darker blends especially Chatswood through a Vesuvius.


This is my only slight reservation about the Niche being a conical burr grinder. I drink light to medium so I'm not sure what the results will be. It could be much better than my current flat grinder, time will tell.


----------



## malling

Grahamg said:


> I think grind speed probably wouldn't be an issue, forget your current routine, you won't be holding a pf there waiting, you'd be grinding into the container whilst you give your basket a quick wipe, put cup on scales, dig your milk out fridge, and a whole host of other things.... And if the review is anything to go by you probably won't be faffing with stirrers, whisks, runes or dowsing rods.


Even if I would consider a conic, which I won't, there is no way I would just grind into a pf and tamp. It need to be wdt as a bare minimum of effort.

I have yet to use a grinder that didn't benefit from it.


----------



## ATZ

malling said:


> Even if I would consider a conic, which I won't, there is no way I would just grind into a pf and tamp. It need to be wdt as a bare minimum of effort.
> 
> I have yet to use a grinder that didn't benefit from it.


What's the issue with WDT in the basket?


----------



## 4085

matharon said:


> Must disagree about E92 retention.
> 
> Single dose (36g for two doubles) down a short aluminium tube which is then "blown" through with a close fitting cylinder pumped up and down a few times while grinder still running.
> 
> Pretty much zero retention similar to DaveC original method although I "blow" a bit harder and catch all in a small plastic beaker and then split weight.
> 
> Also have a Niche on order and will be interested to compare with E92 as both slow speed conicals which suit my preference for med/darker blends especially Chatswood through a Vesuvius.


You are getting a standard E92 confused with an E92 modified for single dosing. Having had a modded one I kept it two days before I decided I wanted a life and not spend 2 minutes prepping and grinding!


----------



## 4085

malling said:


> Even if I would consider a conic, which I won't, there is no way I would just grind into a pf and tamp. It need to be wdt as a bare minimum of effort.
> 
> I have yet to use a grinder that didn't benefit from it.


Take it you have very limited experience of grinders then!


----------



## J_Fo

Nopapercup said:


> This is my only slight reservation about the Niche being a conical burr grinder. I drink light to medium so I'm not sure what the results will be. It could be much better than my current flat grinder, time will tell.


I drink light/medium roasts as well, can I ask why you think the niche might not suit them? (Not being minty, I've ordered one so it's very much a genuine question!!)


----------



## Nopapercup

Jon_Foster said:


> I drink light/medium roasts as well, can I ask why you think the niche might not suit them? (Not being minty, I've ordered one so it's very much a genuine question!!)


The general consensus is conics are more suited to darker roasts and flats to lighter roasts. However I single dose my flat which means I'm probably not getting an optimum grind as the beans are not weighted so will the Niche be better than this and how will the Niche compare to a weighted flat burr doserless like an e37 or Mythos for lighter roasts?


----------



## MWJB

Nopapercup said:


> The general consensus is conics are more suited to darker roasts and flats to lighter roasts. However I single dose my flat which means I'm probably not getting an optimum grind as the beans are not weighted so will the Niche be better than this and how will the Niche compare to a weighted flat burr doserless like an e37 or Mythos for lighter roasts?


Mythos has an auger.


----------



## J_Fo

Nopapercup said:


> The general consensus is conics are more suited to darker roasts and flats to lighter roasts. However I single dose my flat which means I'm probably not getting an optimum grind as the beans are not weighted so will the Niche be better than this and how will the Niche compare to a weighted flat burr doserless like an e37 or Mythos for lighter roasts?


Thank you! I didn't realise that about flat burrs for light/medium roasts... Well, I'm sure it'll be better than what I'm currently using and time will tell but hopefully there won't be much that will beat it for the money!

Thanks again for the reply


----------



## Nopapercup

MWJB said:


> Mythos has an auger.


Whats an auger?


----------



## ATZ

Nopapercup said:


> Whats an auger?


An Archimedes type screw to feed the beans into the burrs at a constant rate


----------



## Nopapercup

ATZ said:


> An Archimedes type screw to feed the beans into the burrs at a constant rate


Nice thanks


----------



## malling

dfk41 said:


> Take it you have very limited experience of grinders then!


On the contrary... I have owned several, all of them benefited from WDT or similar redistribution.

And no it where not entry level by any means, I had a few large conics, some large flats and a k30.

However your welcome to disagree, but it needs to be noted I only drink coffee where the roast has been stopped inside first C, I prefer coffee with very high ext yields. This requires a perfect distribution, the closest I have seen from on demand where a mythos, however even that benefit from it.


----------



## DavecUK

Syenitic said:


> Sure does.
> 
> Something no-one mentions, or has to my recollection. The ceado will dump its grinds out in 5 seconds or so, Niche looks to be quite a bit longer (like the monolith?), Is this an issue for folks?
> 
> My own thoughts on this - I like the no wait, move on and pour.
> 
> Do all good things, really, come to those that wait?


I covered it a bit in page 7 and 8 of the review, but not quite as explicitly as you mention. So to help clarify. If you have a single portafilter (because there is no point using 2 and placing coffee into a cold one).. Imagine producing double shots and agreeing it takes around 25-30 seconds for the shot and 7 seconds to knock out and dry the portafilter ready for the next shot. Then it's fair to say that while you are pulling one double, you can be weighing (approx 10 seconds) and grinding the next based on the fact an 18g dose takes around 18s to grind (including the wait just in case something drops out time). You will have the grinds waiting in the cup, well before the time you have knocked out and dried the portafilter. *So shot after shot even if you have a grinder that does 18g in 1 second, you won't produce the shots any faster!*



*
*Of course the above makes 1 massive assumption: That each time you grind, the weight is perfect and needs no adjustment, on the Niche, no problem (you get out what you put in +/- 0.2g), on many other grinders..not so much.

So I guess we have the case of a single shot:

(a) V.S an on demand grinder with beans already in the hopper doing a timed double dose (remember the weight changes slightly for grind and bean type) e.g. E37s - point and shoot 7 seconds, weigh and modify if necessary 5-7 seconds...total approx 12-14 seconds. Distribute, mix, and tamp 6 seconds. lets call it 20 seconds.

Niche Zero, weigh is 10 sec, grind 18-20sec, deliver to portafilter and tamp 5 seconds (all measured by me just now). Total 35s.

So yeah you can be 15s faster at best *on that first shot only*...on subsequent shots that, you can be no faster with an E37s! Of course you don't have the accuracy of the Niche, you don't have better grind quality and it's no quieter. In addition the amount of exchanged coffee will be orders of magnitude higher, but probably still undetectable as far as taste goes for most. Of course the E37s will have cost you £1295 - £1446 (BB out of stock and cafe Italia in stock), the Niche costs £800-|£900 less!

For sure if that 15-20s each shot is important....absolutely don't buy a Niche, because it's never going to be much faster than 35-40 seconds for the first shot. pay up another £800 or £900 and get the E37S because that will give you the performance you need. If your not too worried about the weight of coffee dispensed, you can shave another 5 seconds off. For a total saving of 25s.

I do of course assume that you are prepping the cups, shot glasses whatever and drying the portafilter ready for the shot....THEN grinding *but should you with to make your workflow*, setting up the Niche with beans, flipping the switch and THEN prepping the glasses etc.. while it grinds. I would think you lose a very small amount of time, *perhaps just the 10 seconds to weigh out your beans (for only one shot at a time)! Is that worth £900...for some perhaps, but for normal people...I wouldn't think so.*

*
*



Rhys said:


> Now, I don't know if it's been tried @DavecUK - does the tumbler supplied fit into a 58mm basket? i.e. invert the pf and place over the tumbler then turn over and tap to level before removing it.
> 
> I found that when I borrowed fatboyslim's EK, the wine measure he uses to clamp onto the chute fitted perfectly into a La Pavoni Millenium portafilter. I could put the pf over it, turn back over and give it a good shake to distribute.


Rhys, that's exactly how it was designed to be used.....I'm just not great at it...yet.


----------



## Syenitic

DavecUK said:


> I covered it a bit in page 7 and 8 of the review, but not quite as explicitly as you mention. So to help clarify. If you have a single portafilter (because there is no point using 2 and placing coffee into a cold one).......


Thanks for the detailed response on this to Dave and to everyone before. I have to confess that I feel a bit of a troll for raising it. As I stated I have my own (maybe OCD) thoughts on this but was seeking opinion.

My situation is generally as you describe '*on that first shot only' *being the only coffee drinker in the house. For me, that bean to mouth within a minute is a motivator! It is not necessarily about the absolute time, but the sense of it.


----------



## Rhys

Rhys said:


> How long does it take to boil a kettle to make a cup of instant?
> 
> 
> 
> billt said:
> 
> 
> 
> Brewista kettle 3'30", in which time I will have made the espresso, cleaned the equipment and have drunk the espresso.
> 
> Normal kettle 1'40", time enough to make the espresso but not to clean the equipment.
Click to expand...

Normal quick boiling kettle.. Ours takes a bit longer.. But that's my point. Folks are criticising how long the grinder takes (and then 30s or so to pull a shot) compared to 2 to 3 minutes to boil a kettle and make a mediocre cup of instant. You can clean your portafilter out while your espresso is cooling a bit



Rhys said:


> Now, I don't know if it's been tried @DavecUK - does the tumbler supplied fit into a 58mm basket? i.e. invert the pf and place over the tumbler then turn over and tap to level before removing it.
> 
> I found that when I borrowed fatboyslim's EK, the wine measure he uses to clamp onto the chute fitted perfectly into a La Pavoni Millenium portafilter. I could put the pf over it, turn back over and give it a good shake to distribute.
> 
> 
> 
> DavecUK said:
> 
> 
> 
> Rhys, that's exactly how it was designed to be used.....I'm just not great at it...yet.
Click to expand...

Well, that shows the design has been thought out


----------



## rdpx

So they've sold out all that were available at £415, and now they have another 5 of each available at the same price...

Have they been doing this all along?

It looks like you have to rush and commit "ONLY FIVE LEFT AT THIS AMAZING PRICE" as there are very few available, then you realize there was no rush. Is it just me or does that seem like quite a manipulative marketing strategy?


----------



## 4085

I suspect they just want as many out there as possible on launch as nothing sells as well as recommendation. They have chucked hundreds of thousands at this so i doubt the addition of ten extra machines at a subsidised price will be thought of as manipulative marketing!


----------



## DavecUK

rdpx said:


> So they've sold out all that were available at £415, and now they have another 5 of each available at the same price...
> 
> Have they been doing this all along?
> 
> It looks like you have to rush and commit "ONLY FIVE LEFT AT THIS AMAZING PRICE" as there are very few available, then you realize there was no rush. Is it just me or does that seem like quite a manipulative marketing strategy?


I think sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as we all know Indegogo is a rather different type of platform to full on-line retail sales. If it were me, I would be looking at the price and the uptake rate and using that to determine whether to increase the price or not, depending on the amount I had left through that investment channel. I think it's safe to assume that at some point the Indegogo stuff will stop, we just don't know when.

The real question is, get the perk at that price is for delivery in August, or, wait until it's out in the field and purchase at whatever the price/delivery timescales are at that time. Worrying about the whys and wherefores isn't really important is it?


----------



## rdpx

DavecUK said:


> I think sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, as we all know Indegogo is a rather different type of platform to full on-line retail sales. If it were me, I would be looking at the price and the uptake rate and using that to determine whether to increase the price or not, depending on the amount I had left through that investment channel. I think it's safe to assume that at some point the Indegogo stuff will stop, we just don't know when.
> 
> The real question is, get the perk at that price is for delivery in August, or, wait until it's out in the field and purchase at whatever the price/delivery timescales are at that time. Worrying about the whys and wherefores isn't really important is it?


Well, I bought one because there were only three left. I'm not regretting it, but I felt that there was a pressure to make the decision because of how it was being portrayed.

I now see that they have just put it back to 5 again, and I feel like I have been manipulated somewhat.

It would seem to me to have been more honest to just say "the Niche will be available at this price until XX:XX, when the price will rise to £XXX"


----------



## Beeroclock

rdpx said:


> Well, I bought one because there were only three left. I'm not regretting it, but I felt that there was a pressure to make the decision because of how it was being portrayed.
> 
> I now see that they have just put it back to 5 again, and I feel like I have been manipulated somewhat.
> 
> It would seem to me to have been more honest to just say "the Niche will be available at this price until XX:XX, when the price will rise to £XXX"


Oh come on this thread has been going on for months and now your're saying you felt pressured into buying? What's the problem whether another 5 are available or not - you've still secured one at less than retail...


----------



## rdpx

Beeroclock said:


> Oh come on this thread has been going on for months and now your're saying you felt pressured into buying? What's the problem whether another 5 are available or not - you've still secured one at less than retail...


I've only been looking at the forums for the past couple of weeks so the length of this thread is immaterial.

The problem is that my trust in the brand is diminished because they are using cheap sales techniques.


----------



## Dylan

I get what rdpx is saying, you aren't allowed to do this with actual product sales for good reason. There may be other factors at play but if the reason for keeping the stock low is to increase impulse buying then that's shady tactics.

That's is very much an 'if' however, I've no idea what is actually going on.


----------



## Beeroclock

Whatever - if you feel truly agrieved - I'm sure that if you contacted Niche - they'd refund your money. If I remember correctly the initial offer sold out really quickly - I missed out as I was travelling back from Spain on the day it launched. They decided to offer more as there had been such high demand, just remember being really glad they were extending the deal.


----------



## Beeroclock

Oh and I paid extra for my black version and now they are the same price...supply and demand...


----------



## Phil104

rdpx said:


> I've only been looking at the forums for the past couple of weeks so the length of this thread is immaterial.
> 
> The problem is that my trust in the brand is diminished because they are using cheap sales techniques.


The length of the thread is material because my decision was made not on Niche marketing but on the views of DavecUK (from the middle of last August) and on MWBJ a week or so later and I imagine that this applies to others on the Forum. Maybe Niche are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't: if they overpromise and then can't deliver, that's bad; if they under promise and then over deliver (which is another way of viewing this rather than manipulative sales techniques), then they are also dammed. I've always seen the Forum as an amazing resource and long threads about one thing or another generally worth reading through. But I know that not everyone reads the Forum like this - hence all the cries of despair when someone else thinks that they're the only one that's had a problem with Peter and Made By Knock and needs to alert everyone on the Forum. Now there is a serious trust issue and so far, so far as I can tell, Niche don't come even close. I'm sorry that your trust is diminished although you appear not to regret your purchase...but as beeroclock suggests you could ask for refund and see how they respond.


----------



## rdpx

Beeroclock said:


> Whatever - if you feel truly agrieved - I'm sure that if you contacted Niche - they'd refund your money. If I remember correctly the initial offer sold out really quickly - I missed out as I was travelling back from Spain on the day it launched. They decided to offer more as there had been such high demand, just remember being really glad they were extending the deal.


I thought I had been quite clear that I am not feeling "truly aggrieved" and that nor do I regret signing up. I just fell for the sales technique, and don't like that. You can say what you want about it, but it won't change that feeling of disappointment.


----------



## LukeT

I made my decision and shortly after they decided to offer more at that reduced price. It didn't occur to me to be bothered by that, although I do understand your logic even if it wasn't mine.

Perhaps they planned for enough volume to just about deal with the tooling etc and get it off the ground, but were taking a big risk with the uncertainties of the market, then once they experienced the demand they refined their plans and were able to go for a higher volume first run, with the benefits you'd associate with that, if they extended the offer?

I can only imagine what it feels like to back yourself to the tune of hundreds of thousands in manufacturing a new machine like this. This is not a big company releasing one new product, it's a small one releasing their first/only one.


----------



## LukeT

(didn't read your post before I wrote mine by the way. I'm not having a dig.)


----------



## ajohn

rdpx said:


> So they've sold out all that were available at £415, and now they have another 5 of each available at the same price...
> 
> Have they been doing this all along?
> 
> It looks like you have to rush and commit "ONLY FIVE LEFT AT THIS AMAZING PRICE" as there are very few available, then you realize there was no rush. Is it just me or does that seem like quite a manipulative marketing strategy?


As I explained earlier I decided not to order one when they were on offer for £300 or so. Nothing to do with the numbers on offer aspect but I did wonder about that. If I put my product hat on they didn't make sense as certain tooling aspects just wouldn't be sensible to use to make numbers that low.

On the other hand they do need cash to make them so personally I wouldn't read too much into aspects like this. They need to raise the cash to produce them in the first place as well as paying for the tooling. They also would want to raise the amount needed as quickly as possible hence the offers that are bound to increase in price as time goes on. They have raised £163,000 odd. That probably relates to 400 plus units. That is still a relatively low number really.

To be honest but I still wouldn't have ordered one I would like to have seen how many had been ordered, where they were being made and shipped from and if taxation would be applied when it finally arrived.

John

-


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> To be honest but I still wouldn't have ordered one I would like to have seen how many had been ordered, where they were being made and shipped from and if taxation would be applied when it finally arrived.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I am really puzzled you think this (I assume you are in the UK or EU), the grinder is being assembled and shipped from the UK, no extra taxes would be applied?

It's not being made abroad and shipped over here with no UK taxes being paid, or using any dodges to try and cleverly avoid duties etc... It's a UK company paying UK taxes e.g. contributing to our economy. I always thought that was clear from my review?


----------



## Jony

Thing are getting obscured here for a few odd people. No sales ploy like a door knocker!! or chugger


----------



## dlight

Good grief, this thread has lost direction. It's about a highly innovative product, with an exceptional price point, especially for early adoptors.

You're backing an innovative start up and taking a risk as to whether this ever is released. If it is released, the next risk is whether it does what it claims. And of course, the next risk is the quality of the production.

Hopefully you've understood all this when you purchased. If not, perhaps more research next time.

And if the money is the issue, then one really shouldn't have "invested" in a indiegogo start up.


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> I am really puzzled you think this (I assume you are in the UK or EU), the grinder is being assembled and shipped from the UK, no extra taxes would be applied?
> 
> It's not being made abroad and shipped over here with no UK taxes being paid, or using any dodges to try and cleverly avoid duties etc... It's a UK company paying UK taxes e.g. contributing to our economy. I always thought that was clear from my review?


All I said is that I would have preferred to see that information on their web site. Also that the aspect that started this particular subject didn't concern me. I had other reasons for not ordering one. I decided to try the Mazzer route.

John

-


----------



## db8000

I wonder if the "only 5 left at the price!!!" text is standard Indiegogo imposition. It may be that the pro forma website adds those bits. it doesn't look great from a customer point of view as it's a false statement but it maybe inadvertent rather than a deliberate ploy to hook anyone in.


----------



## PaulL

dlight said:


> Good grief, this thread has lost direction. It's about a highly innovative product, with an exceptional price point, especially for early adaptors.
> 
> You're backing an innovative start up and taking a risk as to whether this ever is released. If it is released, the next risk is whether it does what it claims. And of course, the next risk is the quality of the production.
> 
> Hopefully you've understood all this when you purchased. If not, perhaps more research next time.
> 
> And if the money is the issue, then one really shouldn't have "invested" in a indiegogo start up.


Exactly. That's the 'had I hat on' when Dave brought the Niche round. Forums are a free-speech environment but the forensic conversations do sadden me and I wonder what Martin Nicholson makes of it all.

When a product like the Niche arrives in my kitchen (and it was fantastic to have it arrive in my environment as I am sure it would be for many of you) it's a great opportunity to see how it would fit in to daily life, the acoustic environment you know best, the worktops, just making drinks and a product disappearing into the background (a test for me with any product whether a bike component, a watch, a tool etc.) or drawing attention to itself because of quirks or irritations.

Personally I have this picture in my mind that a busy family, a housewife (or househusband) just wanting fresh coffee with their Moka pot, cafetiere or espresso equipment is going to love it. It stays clean, is an instant use item without wastage of precious / expensive favourite beans and just does the job it was designed for. At such a high quality is remarkable for its price. It's why I posted in the way I did several pages ago now.


----------



## 4085

ajohn said:


> All I said is that I would have preferred to see that information on their web site. Also that the aspect that started this particular subject didn't concern me. I had other reasons for not ordering one. I decided to try the Mazzer route.
> 
> John
> 
> -


You really ought to read the thread before you start to comment. if you had, you would realise that the CEO has done extensive work over the years for industry names such as Kenwood. Indiegogo was solely to pay for tooling. All other costs have been met. If you understand Kenwood for example, it is a global brand, not a UK brand.


----------



## 4085

At the end of the day, if you back something on Kickstarter or Indiegogo, you are taking a chance on the project coming to fruition. The chance of this failing was considerably shortened by the fact that they had done their own in-house r & d using a very experienced team, several prototypes had been built and were being tested, and the fact that Davec, who like him or loathe him if he wanted to, can demonstrate a long cv of coffee related projects where he has worked alongside big brands, that a lot of you will no doubt own. I love doubters me.....you just make yourselves look stupid when you come on here with your negative views, but hey ho, thats life.......


----------



## Beeroclock

Must confess to being bemused by some of the negativity surrounding this product before it's even hit the shelves so to speak. Most of the hype has been created by ourselves and our enthusiasm for a product that potentially solves a problem for many of us.

What I particularly don't understand is how one can be disappointed at getting the opportunity to secure a product at a good discount - just because there are more offered at the same price. These aren't limited edition models that will be worth more than others....Infact to be honest the more they sell the more likely it is that this gets off the ground and gets delivered as promised - so be pleased, happy.

The fact that Niche were prepared to loan on two occasions their product to pretty thorough testing by someone most on here regard as being pretty well qualified and from what I read happy to critise as well as praise, speaks volumes.


----------



## DavecUK

Beeroclock said:


> Must confess to being bemused by some of the negativity surrounding this product before it's even hit the shelves so to speak. Most of the hype has been created by ourselves and our enthusiasm for a product that potentially solves a problem for many of us.
> 
> What I particularly don't understand is how one can be disappointed at getting the opportunity to secure a product at a good discount - just because there are more offered at the same price. These aren't limited edition models that will be worth more than others....Infact to be honest the more they sell the more likely it is that this gets off the ground and gets delivered as promised - so be pleased, happy.
> 
> The fact that Niche were prepared to loan on two occasions their product to pretty thorough testing by someone most on here regard as being pretty well qualified and from what I read happy to critise as well as praise, speaks volumes.


I agree it seems very odd, but it seems that it is a fact of life. For some reason some people feel the need to make negative comments about something even when everything has been done to ensure things will be as good as they can be. Now not all seemingly negative comments are meant that way. Some simply express a persons misunderstanding, sometimes the product concept simply isn't for them, or their belief is so strong that only an overwhelming amount of evidence, or their own personal experience will satisfy them. There have been many studies done on this in psychology and marketing over the years and when I worked in marketing it was one of the things that was always considered. In truth it's quite uncommon that negative comments are deliberately made with a motive to damage the company and usually these type of comments are actually helpful to the product being knocked.

The fact than in recent years many fantastical products have appeared on Kickstater et al.. that would never have worked and never got built but took all the money has not helped things at all. I could reel off a list of products that just using physics and science would have told you couldn't work...but people invested nonetheless. Offer people something too good to be true and if it's something they really want and want to believe is possible to make for a fantastic price, their common sense goes out the window..

So the Niche comes along. It's not hugely cheap it's £500, but there is a chance to get it at £350 or whatever the campaign started out at. People are told, this grinder is a fraction of the size of the big commercial grinders, costs £500 but performs like a £1400 grinder....well you're going to be skeptical. Indeed I was skeptical when I was first approached and was thinking "another person who knows nothing, but thinks he has designed a great grinder for £500", well I'll politely listen then tell him even more politely that I'm not interested. As we know, during the conversation I realised this guy had really thought this one through and agreed just to have a look at it.....When I saw it working though...that's when I realised I "needed" to test this, because the market was crying out for a grinder like this. This had become more than just another test, this was important.

I am using it every day, I am still amazed how it performs, I am still amazed at the dose variance and when it goes up from a 0.03g variance to 0.15g variance I'm suddenly thinking my god what's wrong, did a whole bean not go through, has something happened. Then I realise just how sensitised I have become to very low variance numbers and that on a scale only accurate to 0.1g and not 0.01g, I would be blissfully ignorant. Then I scratch myself and say even 0.1 or 0.2g variance......is nothing, how geeky am I being. I still religiously weigh in and weigh out, partly because I'm testing partly because it leaves me astonished every time. I am sure when people get their Niche they will do exactly the same. Once I'm not testing I will just weigh 18g in and know as near as makes no difference to anything I'm getting it all back out.

So negative comments, scepticism, yeah of course I fully understand. I think the reasoned comments are expected, but some still surprise me. The latest example of this would be someone who said they didn't know where it was being made and would have liked to see that information on their website. For me this was odd, because it's actually stated on the first paragraph of the Niche home page, but again this just shows the a public preconception that we in Britain do not manufacture any more and all the good products come from somewhere else.

*So the critical comments...yeah I get it and I suppose I understand why. I only hope it doesn't stop someone who would benefit. e.g. those considering a new grinder (prosumer or commercial) between £280-£1400....might do much better with a Niche. If cash is a real problem, then people will go for the usual used quality grinders e.g. Mazzer SJ et al.*

Me, I've pushed the Ceado E92 to the back of the counter and not used it since the Niche arrived.....no need and no point.

P.S. Because i buy my green coffee at wholesale and roast myself I always forget this. For most people using an on demand, they purge a few g of coffee before the shot. The Niche is "probably" one of the few motorised grinders that pays for itself in 4-7 years (based on the cost of lost coffee), depending on how many shots you make each day. Not many grinders you can say that about.


----------



## Dylan

A range of opinions and discussion is always a positive thing.

If we did not ask ourselves the 'negative' questions when we considered buying a product we would end up getting ripped off a lot.

The KS/Indiegogo problem is that it makes it much more difficult to assert your consumer rights if you end up being ripped off, I would consider it almost a loophole in the law as much as DPD et al employing 'self-employed' drivers. Sure, you are being told you are investing in a company, but realistically the vast majority of people expect a product, it's ripe for scams, and although as Dave says, some are obviously close to impossible to bring to market, others are varying takes on existing products that just end up being a scam.

I have little doubt that Niche will deliver their product, but I am not as confident as dfk for example that every product off the production line will be as good as the review units, regardless of the latest prototype using 'current tooling'.

I think it's basically a bad thing to shout down opinions you consider negative or call anyone stupid for having them, but a negative opinion met with an explanation of why such an opinion doesn't make sense to you is a positive thing on a discussion forum.


----------



## Beeroclock

Hmmm but so far the negative opinions as far as I can see are coming from those that haven't either used or seen the product and yet the positive are from those that have...so where does that leave us?


----------



## Dylan

Beeroclock said:


> Hmmm but so far the negative opinions as far as I can see are coming from those that haven't either used or seen the product and yet the positive are from those that have...so where does that leave us?


Making your mind up based on the current info. The 'negative' opinions are speculation, but without having your own hands on a grinder from the production run speculation is always going to happen. The weight of evidence (given the reviews and opinions from those who have had their hands on the pre production grinder) suggests it will be a great grinder for the money, the chances seem to most of us here (especially those who have trust in the opinions of members here) very high that we will end up with a great product, but life teaches us to be skeptical of things until we have it proven to us in person.


----------



## 4085

Negativity is not necessarily disagreeing though.....who do you listen to for advice? Personally, when I want advice I ask an expert......when I want a room painted I ask a painter......what I do not do is ask for advice then query it.....I understand the Indiegogo thing, but quite simply, if you are not prepared to take a punt on something regardless of the incentive and realising you might be throwing good money away, then it's simple.....do not........but that also means respecting the opinions of those who have decided to back the campaign and not inform us that in your view x and y might happen and you do therefore not think it wise.....it is an Indiegogo campaign.....if you are not going to back it, then personally I am not remotely interested in why!

Next, is who do you believe? Niche have made some pretty bold claims and they all appear to have stacked up so far. From prototype to production model, both are in/have been in the hands of one of the few people I actually believe in......why should I doubt it? if it was just another forum idiot of which there are plenty, spouting an opinion on his or her kit then thats fair enough, caveat emptor and all that.....how many times have you seen an enthusiastic owner tell us how good his or her kit is.......whether it is or not is a matter for opinion......so, Niche.......back it or not, for it is what it is.....someone who has had most of the usual grinders out there is looking forward to its arrival and will be surprised if it does live up to expectations....it will be perfect for my new kitchen....low retention, small size and my favoured conical burr set.....nirvana!


----------



## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> Making your mind up based on the current info. The 'negative' opinions are speculation, but without having your own hands on a grinder from the production run speculation is always going to happen. The weight of evidence (given the reviews and opinions from those who have had their hands on the pre production grinder) suggests it will be a great grinder for the money, the chances seem to most of us here (especially those who have trust in the opinions of members here) very high that we will end up with a great product, but life teaches us to be skeptical of things until we have it proven to us in person.


I have always offered an open invite for anyone who would like to come and see the grinder in action.....I am in Byfleet Surrey, just 2 miles from the Cobham junction of the A3 and 2.5 miles from junction 10 of the M25. I am retired, so any time is OK by me as long as I get some warning. Come see it, try it...even bring your own beans and dial them in, rather than my special beans.









In fact I'd always be up for tasting new beans!


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> but that also means respecting the opinions of those who have decided to back the campaign and not inform us that in your view x and y might happen and you do therefore not think it wise.....it is an Indiegogo campaign.....if you are not going to back it, then personally I am not remotely interested in why!


You may not be, but this is an public discussion forum - I find absolutely zero lack of respect in someone else pointing out their views, frankly it surprises me that you think it could in any way be construed as lacking respect - if they come to your house and told you how rubbish your equipment is I would understand. It's not like the opinions have been "you are an idiot for backing this because X,Y,Z", they have said "this worries be because X,Y,Z" which is an opinion they are entirely entitled to.



> I have always offered an open invite for anyone who would like to come and see the grinder in action.....I am in Byfleet Surrey, just 2 miles from the Cobham junction of the A3 and 2.5 miles from junction 10 of the M25. I am retired, so any time is OK by me as long as I get some warning. Come see it, try it...even bring your own beans and dial them in, rather than my special beans.
> 
> In fact I'd always be up for tasting new beans!


As ever Dave, a very kind offer, for anyone close by it would be worth the trip just for a nice coffee!


----------



## 4085

Dylan, the thread is about the Niche grinder with a sub thread of who owns or ordered one...if you want to start a new thread by the sounds of it, sticking up for the rights of those who wish to knock it thats fine by me....someone backing an indiegogo project is well aware of the ins and outs and for me, the last thing I need is someone telling me that in their view they are cleverer than me because they see the pitfalls and I obviously do not...the respect is not for me, but for the thread and many positive contributors that thankfully outnumber the nay sayers....which are you?


----------



## CaffeinatedFox

Im sorry i have read a lot of pages and this grinder sounds great! However i have missed the part about what happens of you pay for one but then it doesnt end up getting manufactured. Would you loose all your money lr are you refunded? Again sorry for going over something that no doubt has been talked about already but i have missed it. Really tempted to pull the trigger on one of these it sounds amazing!!


----------



## 4085

CaffeinatedFox said:


> Im sorry i have read a lot of pages and this grinder sounds great! However i have missed the part about what happens of you pay for one but then it doesnt end up getting manufactured. Would you loose all your money lr are you refunded? Again sorry for going over something that no doubt has been talked about already but i have missed it. Really tempted to pull the trigger on one of these it sounds amazing!!


With Indiegogo, you are not buying an item, but backing an item in the hope and expectation that it gets through all the pitfalls and makes it to production. In exchange for that belief, you receive a discount from the expected retail price. Some projects fail, some are downright fraudulent, but I think the consensus is that this is one of the better ones, which is why something like 65 form members have committed.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?40208-Did-you-back-Niche&highlight=niche


----------



## ashcroc

CaffeinatedFox said:


> Im sorry i have read a lot of pages and this grinder sounds great! However i have missed the part about what happens of you pay for one but then it doesnt end up getting manufactured. Would you loose all your money lr are you refunded? Again sorry for going over something that no doubt has been talked about already but i have missed it. Really tempted to pull the trigger on one of these it sounds amazing!!


Like any indiegogo/kickstarter campaign you do carry the risk of losing your stake without having anything to show for it once the original target has been met (niche has met it's target several times over). If it doesn't reach it's target you don't pay a bean.

In this instance, since it started as raising money for tooling & is near completion, I don't think there's much risk but it's still worth going into with your eyes open. If you're not happy with the risk then wait for it to go into retail production & pay more for the privaledge of the security it gives you.


----------



## DavecUK

CaffeinatedFox said:


> Im sorry i have read a lot of pages and this grinder sounds great! However i have missed the part about what happens of you pay for one but then it doesnt end up getting manufactured. Would you loose all your money lr are you refunded? Again sorry for going over something that no doubt has been talked about already but i have missed it. Really tempted to pull the trigger on one of these it sounds amazing!!


There is always a risk of getting nothing with any crowd funding site....you have to decide the level of risk you are happy to take and assess the likely chance of something not being manufactured. You have to base this as always on the information provided and project development stage. No one can say the level of risk as it relates to you personally. If you want 100% certainty and it would keep you up at night worrying about it...you always have the option to wait and get one at full retail, presumably some time after August 2018, as that's the next Indegogo perk date I think.

I guess a good way to approach things is to never spend more than you can afford to lose. Other than that no one can give advice, you have to decide for yourself.


----------



## CaffeinatedFox

Thank you all for your detailed responses. Il sleep on it for a week or so like its said i may wait and pay full price just for the added security but i normally cant resist a punt especially when the odds seem to be stacked in favour. Thanks guys!


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> the last thing I need is someone telling me that in their view they are cleverer than me because they see the pitfalls and I obviously do not...


You sure do have your own interpretation of the postings in this thread, thats for sure.


----------



## Phil104

CaffeinatedFox said:


> Thank you all for your detailed responses. Il sleep on it for a week or so like its said i may wait and pay full price just for the added security but i normally cant resist a punt especially when the odds seem to be stacked in favour. Thanks guys!


Or wait until, one pops up for sale on the Forum, which is bound to happen.


----------



## ajohn

dfk41 said:


> You really ought to read the thread before you start to comment. if you had, you would realise that the CEO has done extensive work over the years for industry names such as Kenwood. Indiegogo was solely to pay for tooling. All other costs have been met. If you understand Kenwood for example, it is a global brand, not a UK brand.


Not relevant to my post. Actually given the amount raised, certain tooling that was probably needed early on in the prototype stage I would say people are highly likely to get what they have paid for. The only uncertainty really should be problems with long term use and in real terms those should be unlikely / acceptable. No grinder will last for ever. Few things do. In my particular product field though it's sometimes surprising how long things do last.

John

-


----------



## 2bor2bru

Its a shame you DFK4, have to publicly state there are "plenty of forum idiots". You normally have interesting information to provide, but not this time.


----------



## 4085

Not really....unless you are an expert (and I am not) then in my eyes you are a forum idiot and I include myself in that statement.....the reason why is this: often people come on here and ask for advice. They never get it. Instead, they get an ill educated, uninformed opinion usually based on the equipment of the person commenting. Often, that is not helpful at all and can be very misleading. I very rarely ever give advice, other than to go and try something for yourself. I often pass comment, and there is a big difference in that. Opinion v fact.....you can read posts and judge for yourself which is which


----------



## KTD

dfk41 said:


> Not really....unless you are an expert (and I am not) then in my eyes you are a forum idiot and I include myself in that statement.....the reason why is this: often people come on here and ask for advice. They never get it. Instead, they get an ill educated, uninformed opinion usually based on the equipment of the person commenting. Often, that is not helpful at all and can be very misleading. I very rarely ever give advice, other than to go and try something for yourself. I often pass comment, and there is a big difference in that. Opinion v fact.....you can read posts and judge for yourself which is which


I'd like to offer my opinion. You look just like the big dude from game of thrones.


----------



## 4085

KTD said:


> I'd like to offer my opinion. You look just like the big dude from game of thrones.


I only have one question for you, KTD.......do you like chicken?


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> Not really....unless you are an expert (and I am not) then in my eyes you are a forum idiot and I include myself in that statement.....the reason why is this: often people come on here and ask for advice. They never get it. Instead, they get an ill educated, uninformed opinion usually based on the equipment of the person commenting. Often, that is not helpful at all and can be very misleading. I very rarely ever give advice, other than to go and try something for yourself. I often pass comment, and there is a big difference in that. Opinion v fact.....you can read posts and judge for yourself which is which


Unless we're talking about breaking in burrs, in which case it's all facts.


----------



## 4085

Dylan said:


> Unless we're talking about breaking in burrs, in which case it's all facts.


Dylan, haway man......there is a difference between talking about how to break in burrs and someone coming on and saying something along the lines of, what is the best grinder for £500.......unless of course you are just splitting hairs and trying to be provocative......you know that does not work with me


----------



## Dylan

I am not now, nor am I ever trying to be provocative, just trying to navigate my way around seemingly contradictory points.

You were speaking in generalities, about forum members never getting facts but instead getting ill informed opinions - you did not appear to be speaking specifically about the thread. It therefore struck me as rather contradictory that you were so sure of your opinion being a fact in another thread. It is difficult to reconcile the idea that you both believe yourself to be among the forum idiots but that such idiots are also aware of such incontrovertible facts, I guess some of us are more idiot like that others?


----------



## jj-x-ray

Some men are born idiots, some achieve idiocy and some have idiocy thrust upon them.....

Shakespeare probably


----------



## kennyboy993

Back to the niche.

Something that I've been thinking about a while.....

There was an amount of popcorning on Dave's vids - not excessive though.

Not something to worry about - perhaps less of an issue on conicals?

I can understand it's going to happen - maybe it's only an ek43 that would much through beans fast enough for them not to popcorn?


----------



## MWJB

EK has an auger, as does Mythos, Santos & Kitchenaid, for example. The EK still seems to stand alone in terms of useable grind fineness for espresso.

Sure, a full hopper/auger would likely allow a finer grind, but any single dose, gravity fed grinder will have the same situation. People pull tasty shots with hand grinders.


----------



## Dylan

I think the low spin speed might help, along with it being conical and ac ting as its own 'auger' in a way - speculation of course but I would imagine the beans dont get nearly the same force behind them when they popcorn on a much slower grind.

It will be one of the first things to have a look at however when it lands - if those last few beans are getting a different treatment to the rest. This only really matters I would have thought if its of any serious detriment, which it doesn't seem to be from the current feedback.


----------



## rdpx

kennyboy993 said:


> There was an amount of popcorning on Dave's vids - not excessive though.
> 
> Not something to worry about - perhaps less of an issue on conicals?


Isn't that what the lid is for?


----------



## kennyboy993

Lid stops them popping out doesn't it - though u can see them hitting it.


----------



## kennyboy993

Low spin speed argument looks good to me


----------



## DavecUK

kennyboy993 said:


> Back to the niche.
> 
> Something that I've been thinking about a while.....
> 
> There was an amount of popcorning on Dave's vids - not excessive though.
> 
> Not something to worry about - perhaps less of an issue on conicals?
> 
> I can understand it's going to happen - maybe it's only an ek43 that would much through beans fast enough for them not to popcorn?


Page 8 of my review thoroughly covers this point.....so read that and then in conjunction with that (page!). The following is relevant and explained.

A bean might popcorn, but not in the same way as other grinders. It might bounce around a bit until if finally gets munched, but while isn't doing that it remains *intact or at worse splits into 2 smaller pieces*, then of course gets munched. It's doesn't pulverise or powder as it goes down the breaker zone. This is because the burrs spin so slowly. It's why I chose an E92S for single dosing, 240 rpm burrs. So the popcorning is irrelevant to grind quality on the Niche, it only affects grind speed, waiting for that last bean or two to go through.

I talk about munching, because the breaker zone tends to nicely chew up the beans for entry to the milling zone....my personal opinion is that the popcorning you see absolutely doesn't affect grind quality in any way. My coffee tends to be high quality and the beans I was using for those Vids was a large screen size 17/18. I recently was using a Kenyan with another large screen size. Larger beans do popcorn slightly more for obvious reasons. I once has a really big Maragogype bean (Nicaraguan) screen size 20+, which is really big and when roasted it was a huge bean almost twice the size of a normal coffee bean.. I have a bag of roasted from years ago that I show people on the roasting course. I have tried 10g of the small amount I had left of that bean through the production build Niche and no problem, it perhaps popcorns slightly more, but grinds fine. *My concern was they were so big, they might not go in without a weight of beans behind them, but no problem at all, and I don't think you will find roasted beans bigger than those..*


----------



## kennyboy993

Good enough for me - concern removed


----------



## MildredM

jj-x-ray said:


> Some men are born idiots, some achieve idiocy and some have idiocy thrust upon them.....
> 
> Shakespeare probably


Some are born great, some achieve greatness, some have greatness thrust upon them . . .

That was Shakespeare, Twelfth Night









Sorry to be pedantic!

Love all, trust few . . . All's well that ends well . . .


----------



## Mrboots2u

MildredM said:


> Some are born great, some achieve greatness, some have greatness thrust upon them . . .
> 
> That was Shakespeare, Twelfth Night
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry to be pedantic!
> 
> Love all, trust few . . . All's well that ends well . . .


Some are born slippy

Some are born to be wild

Some are born to be bad

Some are born to boogie

Some are born to run

There is only one Born to be my baby though


----------



## DavecUK

@MildredM

But do you know who actually said it...is was Channing Tatum (AKA Duke). I have the evidence














Malvolio eat your heart out.


----------



## 4085

Or the alternate Mohammed Ali quote, 'it is hard to be humble, when you are as great as I am'


----------



## jj-x-ray

I float like a lead balloon, sting like a marshmallow


----------



## MildredM

dfk41 said:


> Or the alternate Mohammed Ali quote, 'it is hard to be humble, when you are as great as I am'


We are such stuff that dreams are made on, and our little life is rounded with sleep.

Mr S again


----------



## L&R

If I had the money, I would definitely order one. From the videos and description it seems that this grinder will serve to real coffee maniacs with scales and meticulous procedures


----------



## Rob1

The "only 5 left at this price" has been going on for quite some time. Typically the offer is extended or the price and delivery date changed for the next one. Presumably if the last unit were taken up at a later date the deliver bracket would have changed and maybe the price with it (as has happened in the past) the logical conclusion being they're offering 5 units at a time under controlled conditions to ensure they can meet their deadline for manufacturing and delivery.

I'm waiting for retail for the warranty, mainly. I was waiting to make sure production models were as good as the prototype and it looks like they are so now I'm a little more tempted but £500 vs £415 isn't all that significant. Of course if it takes another year to be released at rrp I'll be wrestling with my Pharos and regretting it when I've got a light roast.


----------



## LukeT

Interesting point on the warranty. Will later customers get a better warranty than crowd funding backers? Will they sell through retailers or direct only?

From what I'd read I had this down as an item I'd fix myself if it went wrong. So few times in my life I've made use of a warranty.


----------



## DavecUK

LukeT said:


> Interesting point on the warranty. Will later customers get a better warranty than crowd funding backers? Will they sell through retailers or direct only?
> 
> From what I'd read I had this down as an item I'd fix myself if it went wrong. So few times in my life I've made use of a warranty.


Just a bit of logic.....these are purely guesses from me, I don't know anything with respect to warranty

1. With Indegogo funding the tooling for the first batch, it's not going to make them rich, more likely end up cost neutral, it's the 1000s of other grinders they want to sell that starts making them money?

2. How great an advertisement is it if they don't support the grinders that get delivered as part of Indegogo and how will that affect the thousands they would love to sell

3. The grinder is exceedingly simple to fix (I know this for a fact) having completely dismantled (myself and helped) the prototype and reassembled it a few times as part of changing motors (for the US motor) and doing other tests etc.. I don't think *any* repair would take longer than 30 minutes (for the inexperienced) and only needs a few screwdrivers and a 10mm socket. e.g. a whole control board would only take 5 minutes to replace, perhaps 10 minutes for someone who has never done it before. Even the the burrs and sweep arms come out in less than 2 minutes to leave a bare chamber floor.

Even in a worst case scenario of failure, I can't see how the Niche couldn't be fixed fairly easily...especially as it was made to be easy to assemble and disassemble.

The main reason I am testing rather than Niche building is to ensure there are the minimum number of problems.....because if there are any...I will find them!


----------



## jlarkin

I've got a pre-production Niche to test as well now. I likely don't have anything to say yet that DaveC isn't more knowledgeable on but it looks great, seems to work really well from a handful of coffees and I'm excited to try it more.

I don't have any affiliation with the Niche team aside from them letting me have this to try - and I've met them previously. So I think this is a really positive sign that they're very interested in getting these tested and in gaining feedback from them being used in real life.

I'll likely have this as my home grinder for a while, as well as using it for filter/decaf options at some events and in my home brewing workshops. I can see this likely making a trip to Sheffield with me for the Foundry event among other things...

Anyway, one small pic - it's fitting in with it's bigger colleagues very nicely so far.


----------



## ashcroc

jlarkin said:


> I've got a pre-production Niche to test as well now. I likely don't have anything to say yet that DaveC isn't more knowledgeable on but it looks great, seems to work really well from a handful of coffees and I'm excited to try it more.
> 
> I don't have any affiliation with the Niche team aside from them letting me have this to try - and I've met them previously. So I think this is a really positive sign that they're very interested in getting these tested and in gaining feedback from them being used in real life.
> 
> I'll likely have this as my home grinder for a while, as well as using it for filter/decaf options at some events and in my home brewing workshops. I can see this likely making a trip to Sheffield with me for the Foundry event among other things...
> 
> Anyway, one small pic - it's fitting in with it's bigger colleagues very nicely so far.
> 
> View attachment 33379


That pic really puts into perspective how small it is. It could almost sit between the EK's feet!


----------



## pj.walczak

Can you please let us know how big is the diameter of the grinding cup? And how easy/difficult it is to move grinds from cup to standard 58mm pf? Thanks!


----------



## DavecUK

pj.walczak said:


> Can you please let us know how big is the diameter of the grinding cup? And how easy/difficult it is to move grinds from cup to standard 58mm pf? Thanks!


It is made to just fit a 58mm portafilter and you place the PF on top of the grind cup and then invert it so the coffee falls in the PF.


----------



## Beeroclock

pretty sure this is just the bottom half of a coco sprinkle...


----------



## DavecUK

Beeroclock said:


> pretty sure this is just the bottom half of a coco sprinkle...


It was in the prototype for sure, but in the production model, it's a proper purpose made container. if you look hard you will see there are no push and turn marks on it for fitting a lid any more. it's also laser etched on the bottom with the Niche stuff.


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> It was in the prototype for sure, but in the production model, it's a proper purpose made container. if you look hard you will see there are no push and turn marks on it for fitting a lid any more. it's also laser etched on the bottom with the Niche stuff.


Any idea if they may be available separately?


----------



## DavecUK

ashcroc said:


> Any idea if they may be available separately?


I have no idea, but it sounds like a good idea doesn't it....I will mention it to them (next time I speak to Martin) if they don't pick it up on this thread.


----------



## pj.walczak

Thanks DavecUK.


----------



## jj-x-ray

DavecUK said:


> I have no idea, but it sounds like a good idea doesn't it....I will mention it to them (next time I speak to Martin) if they don't pick it up on this thread.


I'd be interested too since I just use my 3yo son's plastic cup at the mo for measuring... The transfer is always messy.

I never backed the niche but at least I could own a niche item.

Kind of like buying Ferrari floor mats for my Skoda.


----------



## SamUK

DavecUK said:


> I have no idea, but it sounds like a good idea doesn't it....I will mention it to them (next time I speak to Martin) if they don't pick it up on this thread.


Especially if they're stackable...


----------



## DavecUK

SamUK said:


> Especially if they're stackable...


Well I only have one Niche at the moment, but when I get another I will try. They look as if they could be stackable..


----------



## MildredM

DavecUK said:


> Well I only have one Niche at the moment, but when I get another I will try. They look as if they could be stackable..


Boom! Boom!


----------



## DavecUK

MildredM said:


> Boom! Boom!


No I wasn't joking, I should be getting a Black US spec one to test (using a US to UK voltage converter) transformer. I will stand them side by side and take a photo.


----------



## MildredM

DavecUK said:


> No I wasn't joking, I should be getting a Black US spec one to test (using a US to UK voltage converter) transformer. I will stand them side by side and take a photo.


I'd got it in my mind's eye a stack of Niches, one atop t'other


----------



## DavecUK

MildredM said:


> I'd got it in my mind's eye a stack of Niches, one atop t'other


Aha got it.

I was also just pondering the fact that the only difference in the US UK version is the US voltage motor and plug....I just love that sort of simplicity and elegance in design.


----------



## Norvin

ashcroc said:


> Any idea if they may be available separately?


I have an idea to make an extended portafilter hopper to enable grinding directly into the portafilter.

I'll have to wait until I get my Niche to try it.


----------



## jlarkin

Norvin said:


> I have an idea to make an extended portafilter hopper to enable grinding directly into the portafilter.
> 
> I'll have to wait until I get my Niche to try it.


Why do you think you'll need to extend it?


----------



## Norvin

jlarkin said:


> Why do you think you'll need to extend it?


To fill the extended gap from the outlet to the portafilter basket rim, to prevent mess from overspraying. It may not be needed in practice, but I will have to wait until I get my hands on one to find out.


----------



## ashcroc

Norvin said:


> To fill the extended gap from the outlet to the portafilter basket rim, to prevent mess from overspraying. It may not be needed in practice, but I will have to wait until I get my hands on one to find out.


Maybe combine it with a portafilter stand too.


----------



## GingerBen

From what I've seen first hand I'm not sure you really need a dosing ring for the Niche. The grounds container does a good job and if you wanted to grind straight in to the portafilter there wouldn't be much of a gap between the dosing chute and the pf to allow any mess. Haven't tried it mind you


----------



## Norvin

ashcroc said:


> Maybe combine it with a portafilter stand too.


Like this?









I'll wait and see, no sense in developing solutions to problems that don't exist.


----------



## DavecUK

Norvin said:


> I have an idea to make an extended portafilter hopper to enable grinding directly into the portafilter.
> 
> I'll have to wait until I get my Niche to try it.


I was wondering how well something like that would work, having read your thread about the rings. Interesting idea....there is no way to stand a portafilter under the Niche without holding it, but something could easily be fabricated. I am certainly getting on better with placing the portafilter over the grinds cup that comes with the niche, then inverting it. I just needed more practice.


----------



## jlarkin

It will grind straight into a norvin "portafilter hopper" no issue. I don't do this normally, just thought I'd check because I couldn't work out what the issue could be - their isn't one.

It also grinds great straight into the Niche supplied cup and then I use that to get the grounds into the portafilter - it's very easy. Put the PF on top of the cup then turn it over, little shake - sometimes it's a little built up on one side but so far no clumps or anything so it just shakes or taps into a fairly flat bed to tamp.


----------



## kennyboy993

I've been wondering how the Niche would do with dark roasts - being a conical I suppose general assumption would be 'not as well as a large flat' ?

Not sure @DavecUK if you've experimented much with darker roasts on yours?

EDIT: OK have searched this enormous thread, has been done before. Feel free to ignore


----------



## J_Fo

kennyboy993 said:


> I've been wondering how the Niche would do with dark roasts - being a conical I suppose general assumption would be 'not as well as a large flat' ?
> 
> Not sure @DavecUK if you've experimented much with darker roasts on yours?
> 
> EDIT: OK have searched this enormous thread, has been done before. Feel free to ignore


I'm interested in this too, can you give me the headlines Kenny?


----------



## jj-x-ray

Norvin said:


> Like this?
> 
> View attachment 33577
> 
> 
> I'll wait and see, no sense in developing solutions to problems that don't exist.


Want one of those.... I have a wobbly bottom... less


----------



## kennyboy993

Have a search Jon though it looked like general consensus was many conceals - including this one - can cope well with dark roasts


----------



## J_Fo

kennyboy993 said:


> Have a search Jon though it looked like general consensus was many conceals - including this one - can cope well with dark roasts


Cheers Kenny


----------



## Phil104

And Niche will be at the London Coffee Festival....


----------



## DavecUK

This post was some info I did for the US market, together with a video. It's probably not relevant for people in the UK/Europe, but if you are interested, link below. You will also see a brace of Niches.









https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/niche-zero-grinder-t48287-140.html


----------



## kennyboy993

Production versions look great - just the same.


----------



## JayMac

Just met the inventors at the LCF today. Had a good chat with Martin about the how and why of this project, as well as seeing the Niche in person and having a go at grinding some beans that came out of a neighbouring roaster an hour before (so not the easiest feat for a grinder, although they were a solid medium roast).

Seemed to live up to what @DaveC so we'll said about both the grinder itself and about Martin and his project.

It's been the last four years of his life, started as he watched how his wife struggled with the brands of grinders we discuss here every day. Really enjoyed speaking with him and finding it even harder to maintain the patience to wait until August (I missed the earlier timing by about one day on IGG. Rats.) Clearly built by a top notch engineer with his first and last concern being quality.

definitely the top moment for me at LCF! Thanks Martin for taking the time to talk to me / all of us...


----------



## DavecUK

JayMac said:


> Just met the inventors at the LCF today. Had a good chat with Martin about the how and why of this project, as well as seeing the Niche in person and having a go at grinding some beans that came out of a neighbouring roaster an hour before (so not the easiest feat for a grinder, although they were a solid medium roast).
> 
> Seemed to live up to what @DaveC so we'll said about both the grinder itself and about Martin and his project.
> 
> It's been the last four years of his life, started as he watched how his wife struggled with the brands of grinders we discuss here every day. Really enjoyed speaking with him and finding it even harder to maintain the patience to wait until August (I missed the earlier timing by about one day on IGG. Rats.) Clearly built by a top notch engineer with his first and last concern being quality.
> 
> definitely the top moment for me at LCF! Thanks Martin for taking the time to talk to me / all of us...


I think you echo the sentiments of a lot of people. I took it around my friends place again so he could have another go...his arrives in the first batch as he got in at £360. It was nice to see him easily fall into the easy workflow of the Niche as if he had been using the grinder every day for months. His Ceado E37S is over £1400 of grinder and it wasn't besting the Niche in any way except size, weight and undoubted lifetime "hand down to your kids" durability. In one taste test a few weeks ago we both felt the Niche delivered better in the cup. Whether that was down to extraction, or some other quirk you can never be sure. What we both are sure about is that the E37S (an 83mm flat burr grinder) is not better in the cup!

Martin for sure doesn't have a lot of time. There has to be a laserlike focus on bringing the Niche to market as close to the target date as he can, ensuring the quality of every grinder they sell and making sure there are no reliability issues to affect users. When he pops over here with a grinder and we chat, it's always about the project, marketing, instruction manuals, production, packaging and so many other issues, you wouldn't believe need to get done. It's almost there though, the finishing as far as backers are concerned. For Martin, it's just the beginning of a whole lot more work. The best thing of all.........the UK and US grinders are working flawlessly.

It's always nice meeting Martin and I always feel guilty at taking up his very limited amount of "free" time.


----------



## LukeT

Can't wait to experience the leap from Minion to Niche. I didn't know when I backed the Niche but since then I have often taken to single dosing even with the associated inconveniences of a grinder not made for it.

Been working on planning a new kitchen for a while (building a house) and it now looks like the Niche will arrive before anything else (new) in the kitchen. Pretty amazing for something backed through crowd funding.

These glimpses of further testing etc are very pleasing to read. So much passion for this project.


----------



## DavecUK

LukeT said:


> Can't wait to experience the leap from Minion to Niche. I didn't know when I backed the Niche but since then I have often taken to single dosing even with the associated inconveniences of a grinder not made for it.


It will be a HUGE leap!


----------



## Rhys

Hopefully it will be great for pour-over and moka pot as that's what I'll be mainly using mine for when I'm staying at my partner's house. She made me take my espresso stuff to my house (and there's no way she wants a huge Speedster in her kitchen..)


----------



## ashcroc

Rhys said:


> Hopefully it will be great for pour-over and moka pot as that's what I'll be mainly using mine for when I'm staying at my partner's house. She made me take my espresso stuff to my house (and there's no way she wants a huge Speedster in her kitchen..)


Thought she had the la pav for her hot chocolate.


----------



## PaulL

When Dave came round for a second time with the Niche I was disappointed with the variance in weight in/out. Personally I only use single-basket 11g shots. On one occasion it was 0.04g less and on another occasion it was 0.08g.

Did you see what I did there? 4 and 8 are subliminally big numbers, then you pinch yourself and say it's less than 0.1g each time, a single coffee bean is about 0.15g and an 11g single shot is circa 90 to 95 beans depending on the bean and roast. In other words, I lost 1/4 to 1/2 a bean on occasion. In comparison my Ceado E37s (which I am a huge fan of) has a variance of 10.7g to 11.3g, 2 beans either way. This will matter to some of you, to others it won't.

However, when you walk back to your Niche after an hour or two for another coffee you only use the 11g each time, it's all fresh. When you use the Ceado (or most other grinders) you purge 5g to 7g first, you have to. For those of you who buy expensive 250g bags etc. form a speciality roaster your supply becomes precious. In my case with a Dalian and many kilos of green beans it doesn't matter. Nevertheless it's fantstic for a grinder to be so user friendly and economic on what matters most, at the end of the day it's just a cup of coffee. It's why I posted in the way I did previously on circa p89 because it's not built like the equivalent of an SME/Nottingham-Analogue/Brinkmann turntable, it doesn't need to be (but designed equally brilliantly).

Thanks to Dave for taking the trouble to bring the Niche around again.


----------



## burmanm

DavecUK said:


> This post was some info I did for the US market, together with a video. It's probably not relevant for people in the UK/Europe, but if you are interested, link below. You will also see a brace of Niches.


That video actually brings me to one question - how sturdy is the lid and its locking mechanism? It looks very light plastic in the videos and those are occasionally quite fragile (just look at kids' toys..). It's nearly impossible to say from the videos / photos unfortunately how they're in reality built and if they'll last in the use. And the other question is obviously - can the whole lid be replaced including the part that connects to the chassis?


----------



## DavecUK

burmanm said:


> That video actually brings me to one question - how sturdy is the lid and its locking mechanism? It looks very light plastic in the videos and those are occasionally quite fragile (just look at kids' toys..). It's nearly impossible to say from the videos / photos unfortunately how they're in reality built and if they'll last in the use. And the other question is obviously - can the whole lid be replaced including the part that connects to the chassis?


I nipped down and removed the lid+hinge to inspect it, it took about 5 sec. I think it's as robust as it needs to be and* I can't see it simply breaking in normal use.*. Of course it could be broken, perhaps if you dropped the grinder on the floor, or left it up and then caught it against something low, etc..It's not indestructible...by it's very nature the hinges will be the weakest point and the most likely area where the plastic could break. it appears to be made of polycarbonate or acrylic 3mm thick (approx), with the hinge pins being surrounded by 2.5mm (approx) thick material. The lid feels surprisingly heavy and looks robust.

This area has been well thought through by Niche and the lid and hinge come together as a set, rather than just the lid alone. Once the hinge is attached to the lid it's a one time fit, you cannot remove the hinge again, so a spare lid will come with the hinge already fitted. I do know the anticipated replacement cost, but I cannot say, Niche will no doubt publish this in due course. *What I can say is the price is good and will elicit the reaction "is that all, OK no worries"..*



*
If you have the single tool required (Allen key) ready and the new lid unpacked. Removal of an old broken lid+hinge and replacement with a new one would take less than 30s.*



*
*










*
*P.S. It has a bluish tinge when viewed through the edge, so not definite, but more likely to be Polycarbonate*.*

*
*


----------



## Gatty

Has anyone here seen the black and white versions next to each other and if so what were your thoughts? Backed the black and have seen a photo at LCF of them next to each other but was wondering how they compared in the flesh?


----------



## JayMac

I saw in the flesh the LCF setup. Personally I found them both to look really nice in person. I prefer black myself. They are the same powder coating. I would just choose whichever matches your taste and coffee corner colours.


----------



## Gatty

Thanks, had been getting cold feet about the black seeing shots of the white more and more the last couple of weeks! I'll like it either way I'm sure! Counting down the days till June, I'm holding off starting a coffee corner till then and limping to the finish line making drip with a cheap DeLonghi grinder - its going to be quite the upgrade by the sounds of things!


----------



## 4085

Gatty said:


> Thanks, had been getting cold feet about the black seeing shots of the white more and more the last couple of weeks! I'll like it either way I'm sure! Counting down the days till June, I'm holding off starting a coffee corner till then and limping to the finish line making drip with a cheap DeLonghi grinder - its going to be quite the upgrade by the sounds of things!


June is unlikely unless you pre-ordered


----------



## Gatty

dfk41 said:


> June is unlikely unless you pre-ordered


Wasn't an early buyer but backed in February, IGG suggests June delivery, but realise I'm at the back of the queue compare to most of the guys here! Fingerscrossed!


----------



## GingerBen

Gatty said:


> Thanks, had been getting cold feet about the black seeing shots of the white more and more the last couple of weeks! I'll like it either way I'm sure! Counting down the days till June, I'm holding off starting a coffee corner till then and limping to the finish line making drip with a cheap DeLonghi grinder - its going to be quite the upgrade by the sounds of things!


it will be like night and day. I've been lucky enough to have a go with one and the ease of use alongside the quality of the output is great. It's also smaller than I thought and creates almost zero mess. Can't wait for my black one to arrive.


----------



## Rscut

What is a realistic delivery time, if I ordered today?


----------



## JayMac

It still says August on IGG (unless Martin changed that today). They are working so actively on this project that i think if they didn't genuinely believe they could get the current lot out in August they would edit the date for new backers. So I would assume on or very close to the end of August.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Do we know how powerful the motor is in these?

I'm wanting a decent grinder and don't like upgrading so try to buy the best I can afford in the first place. I'm looking for a grinder with minimal retention as I'm a single doser really. I want to buy a grinder that will last though.


----------



## jlarkin

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Do we know how powerful the motor is in these?
> 
> I'm wanting a decent grinder and don't like upgrading so try to buy the best I can afford in the first place. I'm looking for a grinder with minimal retention as I'm a single doser really. I want to buy a grinder that will last though.


Some aspects of the motor along with most other stuff you'd likely want to know, were mentioned in Davec's review - https://static1.squarespace.com/static/585125e4c534a5293ffe148f/t/5a1be0229140b7c306445a08/1511776294394/Niche+zero+review.pdf which is also available via the Niche website. Does that help?


----------



## GingerBen

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Do we know how powerful the motor is in these?
> 
> I'm wanting a decent grinder and don't like upgrading so try to buy the best I can afford in the first place. I'm looking for a grinder with minimal retention as I'm a single doser really. I want to buy a grinder that will last though.


for the money and your requirements I'd struggle to see anything even close to the Niche tbh


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Cheers guys. I had pretty much decided on a Mignon until I read about the Niche, it's really peaked my interest to say the least!


----------



## kennyboy993

I'd second Ben's comments - if this product gets anywhere near the performance of its pre-prod units it doesn't have any real competition at the moment - that's how significant this is.

The question therefore becomes - is there enough evidence to assume the prod units will be the same and that they'll be reasonably hard wearing..... my view is that the answer is yes.


----------



## ATZ

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Cheers guys. I had pretty much decided on a Mignon until I read about the Niche, it's really peaked my interest to say the least!


Might be worth looking at the next generation mignon? The perfetto is it?

Video of one on here recently looked very promising


----------



## GingerBen

kennyboy993 said:


> I'd second Ben's comments - if this product gets anywhere near the performance of its pre-prod units it doesn't have any real competition at the moment - that's how significant this is.
> 
> The question therefore becomes - is there enough evidence to assume the prod units will be the same and that they'll be reasonably hard wearing..... my view is that the answer is yes.


agree with your last comment. No reason to think they won't be. Too much effort gone in to this to not make the retail units as good or better than the Pre prod


----------



## Dylan

ATZ said:


> Might be worth looking at the next generation mignon? The perfetto is it?
> 
> Video of one on here recently looked very promising


Whilst the new Mignon does look significantly better than the older models there is nothing currently to suggest it creates a huge leap in grind quality. If the experiences of the few members who have given the Niche a spin (or in DavecUK's case a full pre-production review) hold up into the production model then the Niche seems to significantly outclass anything else in its price bracket when it comes to grind quality.

The above is all based on info in this thread and elsewhere, and until the Niche is in the wild and comparisons can be made none of it is without doubt - but at the moment whilst the Mignon looks like an improvement the Niche looks like a leap.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Okay I've gone for it.

Roll on August!!


----------



## GingerBen

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Okay I've gone for it.
> 
> Roll on August!!


I reckon that's a good decision


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

GingerBen said:


> I reckon that's a good decision


Cheers mate. Let's hope so!


----------



## GingerBen

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Cheers mate. Let's hope so!


ive backed it too so I really hope so!









ive has a go on one and it's great so I'm very confident it will impress


----------



## Stanic

you can still get the Mignon II later if you'll like to try flat burrs alongside conicals


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Stanic said:


> you can still get the Mignon II later if you'll like to try flat burrs alongside conicals


I'd love to, but if I did, I don't think I'd see the next day unless I moved countries to escape the blast radius of swmbo!!


----------



## Stanic

Haha good one







perhaps after a while as she gets used to the great coffee you'll make her, you'll be able to suggest it in a by-the-way manner and survive


----------



## daekis

I couldn't resist and and went ahead and backed as well.


----------



## Rscut

I got as far as putting in my card details then bottled it. I recently purchased a Eureka Zenith from the forum, which I would want to sell when the Niche arrives, however I am sceptical about what I will get for it when the for sale section becomes saturated with grinders for sale from new Niche owners.


----------



## kennyboy993

Rscut said:


> I got as far as putting in my card details then bottled it. I recently purchased a Eureka Zenith from the forum, which I would want to sell when the Niche arrives, however I am sceptical about what I will get for it when the for sale section becomes saturated with grinders for sale from new Niche owners.


I'm not sure it will change things much? The niche is a true single doser - the zenith on demand..... different requirements?


----------



## Oblivion

I've backed the campaign. I was going to go for a second hand grinder but this ticks all the boxes for me.

I went for it as from what I can see it's like a Mazzer Kony in a tighter package. It will fit in the kitchen perfectly and the wife will approve of the style I'm sure.

British designed and made is always a bonus. Roll on August.

There is nothing further I'd like to see in the design as it offers simplicity which in turn should be reliable and easy to service.

I have high hopes for this and as long as the machining is precise in the production models all should be as expected.


----------



## jlarkin

kennyboy993 said:


> I'm not sure it will change things much? The niche is a true single doser - the zenith on demand..... different requirements?


I imagine it will change things a bit. It's not really been possible to have "a true single doser" before in any category apart from with mods or rather more expensive grinders. So either mod, shell out a bunch or get something like a zenith doser anyway because it'll do a decent job. Now if you had a zenith doser and really wanted a true single doser, you might be backing the niche and hoping to get rid of the zenith doser once it comes along and you have it in hand and know you're happy with it. I would think a fair few people would be hoping to move grinders on once the Niche is sent to them? Perhaps not enough to totally change the market but at least in coffeeforums terms, it might?


----------



## PPapa

I imagine the on demand grinders are still going to be in demand in (small) coffee shops?

Ceados, Zeniths and Mazzers can all be used in shops anyway.


----------



## jlarkin

PPapa said:


> I imagine the on demand grinders are still going to be in demand in (small) coffee shops?
> 
> Ceados, Zeniths and Mazzers can all be used in shops anyway.


Yeah but they aren't necessarily (although they could be) buying second hand ones from guys on forums.


----------



## DavecUK

Oblivion said:


> I've backed the campaign. I was going to go for a second hand grinder but this ticks all the boxes for me.
> 
> I went for it as from what I can see it's like a Mazzer Robur in a tighter package.


More like a Mazzer Kony.....


----------



## JayMac

One white one left for August shipment on IGG right now, the black and rest of the white have changed to September. Price is the same though.


----------



## Oblivion

DavecUK said:


> More like a Mazzer Kony.....


Yes that's the video I was watching. Very similar.

(I've corrected my previous post)


----------



## oscar-b

Has there been any particle distribution analysis done on the Niche yet? Looks like a very nice grinder but I'm mostly interested in the pour over range.


----------



## MWJB

oscar-b said:


> Has there been any particle distribution analysis done on the Niche yet? Looks like a very nice grinder but I'm mostly interested in the pour over range.


It works fine for pour over.


----------



## Oblivion

oscar-b said:


> Has there been any particle distribution analysis done on the Niche yet? Looks like a very nice grinder but I'm mostly interested in the pour over range.


I've not heard of this. Do other grinders have results to compare and if so where can I find them?

Is this a scientific test?


----------



## MWJB

Oblivion said:


> I've not heard of this. Do other grinders have results to compare and if so where can I find them?
> 
> Is this a scientific test?


Particle distributions are not routinely available for grinders, where they are provided by manufacturers they usually just show the difference in settings for that grinder. Like here...http://www.baratza.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/VIRTUOSO-graph.pdf

It's measurement, like weighing, or checking temp. But you have to compare data from the same protocol, you can't mix & match data from different sources methods.

However, for the Niche to produce a distribution so bad that it made brewing difficult, it would have to be noticeably broken (like most grinders).


----------



## dan1502

Just convinced my co-director that we should order one of these for work so have ordered a black one to pair with the La Spaziale Vivaldi Mini II I've agreed to buy. Should hopefully be a great mess free set-up.


----------



## Rscut

dan1502 said:


> Just convinced my co-director that we should order one of these for work so have ordered a black one to pair with the La Spaziale Vivaldi Mini II I've agreed to buy. Should hopefully be a great mess free set-up.


Do you work with people who are as passionate about coffee as you? I can't image getting a decent set up and work, not knowing if everyone was going to treat it with the same respect I would!


----------



## oscar-b

MWJB said:


> Particle distributions are not routinely available for grinders, where they are provided by manufacturers they usually just show the difference in settings for that grinder. Like here...http://www.baratza.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/VIRTUOSO-graph.pdf
> 
> It's measurement, like weighing, or checking temp. But you have to compare data from the same protocol, you can't mix & match data from different sources methods.
> 
> However, for the Niche to produce a distribution so bad that it made brewing difficult, it would have to be noticeably broken (like most grinders).


As you say, most grinders are broken. It would be interesting to see a comparison against known good grinders such as the EK43.


----------



## MWJB

oscar-b said:


> As you say, most grinders are broken. It would be interesting to see a comparison against known good grinders such as the EK43.


That isn't what I said.

The EK-43 is recognised as doing something different to normal, functioning domestic & café espresso burr grinders. There are plenty of EK-43 threads, I don't think any discuss a new, sub £500 model though.


----------



## dan1502

Rscut said:


> Do you work with people who are as passionate about coffee as you? I can't image getting a decent set up and work, not knowing if everyone was going to treat it with the same respect I would!


There's only two of us and the most likely scenario is that I shall be making all the coffee but I will try to teach him. He's not into coffee like me but does appreciate a good cup.

It'll be interesting to see whether clients appreciate it but I'll have to make sure I don't spend 15 minutes making the coffee at the beginning of each meeting!


----------



## ashcroc

oscar-b said:


> As you say, most grinders are broken. It would be interesting to see a comparison against known good grinders such as the EK43.


Why are most of your grindwrs broken?

There's a thread somewhere where several different grinders outputs have been put through kruve sifters to measure variation.


----------



## UncleJake

ashcroc said:


> Why are most of your grindwrs broken?
> 
> There's a thread somewhere where several different grinders outputs have been put through kruve sifters to measure variation.


The confusion has come from this paragraph:

"However, for the Niche to produce a distribution so bad that it made brewing difficult, it would have to be noticeably broken (like most grinders)".

Which was meant to mean that most grinders would have to be broken to produce distribution that made brewing difficult - rather than, as it has instead been interpreted: Most grinders are broken.


----------



## oscar-b

MWJB said:


> That isn't what I said.
> 
> The EK-43 is recognised as doing something different to normal, functioning domestic & café espresso burr grinders. There are plenty of EK-43 threads, I don't think any discuss a new, sub £500 model though.


Sorry, I misunderstood you







In my experience though, most grinders are flawed one way or the other, especially for use at home.

As the Niche's grind quality is being compared to grinders three times it's price, it would be interesting to put that to the test (been burned by similar hyperbole before), the EK is of course out of reach quality wise but it would be interesting nonetheless, don't you think?


----------



## MWJB

oscar-b said:


> Sorry, I misunderstood you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> In my experience though, most grinders are flawed one way or the other, especially for use at home.
> 
> As the Niche's grind quality is being compared to grinders three times it's price, it would be interesting to put that to the test (been burned by similar hyperbole before), the EK is of course out of reach quality wise but it would be interesting nonetheless, don't you think?


No worries 

Sure, almost nothing is perfect but most normally functioning grinders will produce a normal result, if they don't go quite fine enough you might have to pull the shot a bit longer ratio-wise.

You could compare almost any burr grinder to the EK and it wouldn't match up, it might be interesting but the result is pretty much known & the EK is a different thing, rather than a typical standard. "yeah, but it ain't an EK," could be feature in every thread about every other grinder 

I haven't seen any objective comparison of the Niche grind distribution compared to other grinders other than a simple sieve test for brewed grind that I did.


----------



## rytopa

For pour over maybe we could look at the Kony for reviews. Knowing that the burrs are simliar to the kony and the Kony has been quite popular for pour overs

http://www.coffeed.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3396


----------



## sdcycling

I am signed up for the June delivery of a grinder to the USA. Does anyone know whether things are on track for the June perk?


----------



## Rhys

sdcycling said:


> I am signed up for the June delivery of a grinder to the USA. Does anyone know whether things are on track for the June perk?


You could always send them an email, although I'm sure they'd mention any set-backs in their newsletter (if you've signed up for it?)


----------



## sdcycling

Rhys said:


> You could always send them an email, although I'm sure they'd mention any set-backs in their newsletter (if you've signed up for it?)


I sent an email. I have not yet heard back. I am also signed up for the newsletter. They have over 500 backers. That is a lot of grinders.


----------



## Dayks

Niche just posted an update on indiegogo, first batch now due mid August.

'Hello backers, please forgive us if you feel we haven't been communicating with you enough. We have been working night and day to deliver the Niche Zero Grinder on time.

Unfortunately we have experienced a number of small delays in the manufacture and delivery of some of our components. This has mainly been caused by extended manufacturing lead times and the time it takes to get parts shipped in from around the world.

*

The overall effect of all these delays is that we are now planning to deliver the first batch of grinders mid-August.

We are extremely disappointed to have to announce this delay, as we know all our backers are eager to receive their new grinders. Your continued support and patience is very much appreciated, whilst we take this time to deliver the Niche Zero grinder to the very highest standard possible.

*

We will be contacting you at the end of July to confirm your shipping address details.

*

Cheers from everybody at Niche Coffee.'


----------



## burmanm

sdcycling said:


> I sent an email. I have not yet heard back. I am also signed up for the newsletter. They have over 500 backers. That is a lot of grinders.


Well, that 500 was never the first batch. The real question is now: how much more will this thing be delayed. It should have been quite apparent that if it takes until May 14th to know that June deliveries are not going to happen, then the June was always doomed to fail. Not knowing it earlier is just either a) delaying on purpose the inevitable news, b) incompetence. The parts should have been there ages ago if they wanted to ship something in June, which is quite apparent from the fact that this thing now ships in mid-August - earliest. Even a ship from China doesn't take that much extra time. It seems many have lost touch of reality when it comes to this product and any negative comment is shot down as being silly.

I personally would have been surprised if any Kickstarter/Indiegogo project was delivered in time. Or if they fulfill all the expectations.


----------



## Syenitic

burmanm said:


> Well, that 500 was never the first batch. The real question is now: how much more will this thing be delayed. It should have been quite apparent that if it takes until May 14th to know that June deliveries are not going to happen, then the June was always doomed to fail. Not knowing it earlier is just either a) delaying on purpose the inevitable news, b) incompetence. The parts should have been there ages ago if they wanted to ship something in June, which is quite apparent from the fact that this thing now ships in mid-August - earliest. Even a ship from China doesn't take that much extra time. It seems many have lost touch of reality when it comes to this product and any negative comment is shot down as being silly.
> 
> I personally would have been surprised if any Kickstarter/Indiegogo project was delivered in time. Or if they fulfill all the expectations.


I sort of agree with you on your points especially the one about negative comments, and delaying the unfortunate news. Really hope this is pulled around and keeps close to the revised schedule, for all those backers from here.


----------



## PaulL

I'm not sure I agree at all, easy to make these comments but if components are delayed and you wait as long as possible to reset expectations. if Niche have the integrity many of us believe they have (for a project that appears to have taken some time and considerable investment from Martin and perhaps his family) then he won't have take the decision lightly.

Out of interest Burmanm what's your motivation in this as I see you only have a few posts and no profile, disappointed consumer who took the plunge, competitor to Niche who has an interest in posting what you wrote, casual forum visitor and coffee enthusiast? Straight shooting question and not intended to offend, just curious because I suspect there are people/companies who would prefer it isn't launching.


----------



## Dylan

things not getting delivered on time from KS/IGG is pretty much par the course, disappointing for sure but thoroughly unsurprising.


----------



## rytopa

" Glad that i am not the only one finding Niche team communications and updates seriously lacking.

Please bear in mind guys that this is a crowdfunding project, not a typical online shop whereby failure to deliver the goods you have multiple avenues for recourse. It is the crowd who brought this project to live by pledging a a certain amount of dollars, and there have been spectacular failures in the crowdfunding world, it is normal for contributors to feel jittery when there is an lack of updates.

The last non-marketing update is on the 29 March about the pre-production grinder and usually for projects like there this a big flurry of updates and activities to be heard nearing the shipping dates (confirmation of shipping address, changes to color, etc etc).

If there are any issues with production delays and such just keep us informed, likewise if there are non its also good to keep us informed why? because come June if the delivery deadline is not met as promise, you can be assure of really nasty comments on their social pages, and by than damage control would be much harder. "

This re-post could not have come at a more appropriate time, and no we are not a whiny Kickstarter generation who grumbles at delays, infact we take it as a fact that kickstarter delays are a norm, but Communications & more Communications is key. Any potential delays should be known way in advance, preempt the customers so that they can make appropriate plans, for many this maybe their first grinder and are eagerly waiting to pair with their new machine.


----------



## ashcroc

burmanm said:


> Well, that 500 was never the first batch. The real question is now: how much more will this thing be delayed. It should have been quite apparent that if it takes until May 14th to know that June deliveries are not going to happen, then the June was always doomed to fail. Not knowing it earlier is just either a) delaying on purpose the inevitable news, b) incompetence. The parts should have been there ages ago if they wanted to ship something in June, which is quite apparent from the fact that this thing now ships in mid-August - earliest. Even a ship from China doesn't take that much extra time. It seems many have lost touch of reality when it comes to this product and any negative comment is shot down as being silly.
> 
> I personally would have been surprised if any Kickstarter/Indiegogo project was delivered in time. Or if they fulfill all the expectations.


Or © One or more if their suppliers has let them down (or parts lost in transit maybe) & has told them they can't supply when promised causing a knock on delay to the finished product.


----------



## Kilo

One would like to know more about this. Which part or parts are missing? Where do they come from? What does British made exactly means? Parts from all over the world, assembled in the UK? What tooling has been invested for what? And how does this relate to the production model that recently has been tested by DaveC? Is there a production model without certain parts or were these parts muster parts?

I fully understand the prime goal of the Niche team is to produce the grinder and that communication about the production process is secondary. But one message to the backers, explaining things takes maybe half an hour. Sure there is time for that to be found.

Of course I am disappointed a bit about the delay and more the late announcement of this. Hope it's not a quality issue.


----------



## burmanm

PaulL said:


> I'm not sure I agree at all, easy to make these comments but if components are delayed and you wait as long as possible to reset expectations. if Niche have the integrity many of us believe they have (for a project that appears to have taken some time and considerable investment from Martin and perhaps his family) then he won't have take the decision lightly.


Designing something and producing something are two quite different things. I'm not questioning anyone's commitment to the project, but it is clearly a learning experience to them. Just think about it, they clearly haven't done the final assembly yet. Now they know it is going to take around 3 months longer. That means the final assembly is going to take some time - which they do know and that the parts in question should have arrived a lot earlier (say beginning of April) to meet the deadlines. This type of delay should not come as a surprise to them at the very last hour had they done properly their planning. And for that reason I think they've known this for a very long time but did not know how to do their PR. The other option is that they're only known starting to understand the complexity of actually bringing products to market (instead of only designing them). And that could still lead to quality issues (once the parts arrive, they might be faulty - if they're not watching the subcontractor enough). And if it's the latter case, then it's very likely to see further delays. If first, then hopefully they'll fix their communication - that's a lot easier.

Improving their communication would probably improve their sales also after this initial offering. Currently the lack of communication is a large question marker for anyone still thinking about investing before the product has actually shipped. Feeling connected is a very important part of the buying / owning experience. And I hope they'll stick around longer - that'll guarantee the product is still worth owning years later.



> Out of interest Burmanm what's your motivation in this as I see you only have a few posts and no profile, disappointed consumer who took the plunge, competitor to Niche who has an interest in posting what you wrote, casual forum visitor and coffee enthusiast? Straight shooting question and not intended to offend, just curious because I suspect there are people/companies who would prefer it isn't launching.


I find that quite attacking question considering the discussion, it's the same if I would ask - are you Niche employer trying to sell something non-existant or what is your motivation in defending them. I have personally backed Niche so my interest is only getting the grinder I'm hoping for. I however do dare to say my concerns, since for me this is only a product I'm buying - and whoever is producing it is not important to me.

As for "there are companies who would prefer it isn't launching" is something I would consider "a dead company". In the end, every manufacturer should look into producing a product that will make their current offerings useless. Since the harsh reality is, if they don't do it - someone else will. As for market implication, that remains to be seen, I don't know how big slice of the market this product is targeting and I'm not sure if anyone knows that yet. Competition is always good, even for those incumbent players - as it might increase the total market value or clear out some other more dangerous competitor.


----------



## Mrboots2u

This definitely falls under the first World problems category.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Mrboots2u said:


> This definitely falls under the first World problems category.


 worse even than the plagues of Egypt.


----------



## Tsangpa

My guess is that they'll have known for some time there was a supply problem, possibly lost in transit. They probably tried to re-source or re-ship to meet the initial deadline which means it's quite tight for them to know whether they'll make it or not, hence the announcement so close to the deadline. Once they've realised it can't be done on time there's quite a bit of re-planning to ensure it doesn't cause a knock on effect with the subsequent deadlines, then they'll want to give an updated deadline that they can 100% hit. Extending the deadline causes a wobble in confidence, so they'll only want to have to do that once otherwise it'll cause ongoing trust issues for the brand, so it'll most likely be a worst case scenario timeframe. If it gets put back further then it's not a parts issue but a production/design issue which is far more worrying, but mostly this looks like a normal lost in transit issue.


----------



## Oblivion

It's only a 2 month delay. Relax.


----------



## mctrials23

They could definitely be better at communicating but there are many reasons this delay could have come out of the blue. Perhaps the company supplying a particular part had been reassuring them it would be delivered mid-may and suddenly said it wouldn't be delivered until early august. Its a small production that will be relying on external companies to produce the parts. If any one of those make a mistake you can't really do much about it. Its a shame but I'm not going to get worried unless there are more significant delays. I just wish I wasn't stuck with a crap grinder until then.


----------



## Dylan

If anyone is interested in why there are delays in delivering a product to the market I suggest you read through the Decent Espresso thread.

It is also a good example of how regular communication helps keep people calm. But honestly its an exceptional example... you have to remember that you are buying in to a product at a stage that typically has zero consumer feedback and expectations, it's a different matter if you have bought a finished product and then get no communication and no delivery (pointing no fingers







) but this is crowdfunding - the delay is unsurprising and the level of communication was known to anyone on this forum before the campaign even happened - I made posts about it myself saying how much people appreciate communication, it got no reply from Niche and I still backed it (With the knowledge that my money could be burned, I dont expect it to be, but crowdfunding should only really be done if you can afford to hit should the worst happen). You really do have to go into crowdfunding with your eyes open to the common pitfalls, but I appreciate many will not have known this.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Looking at this update positively Niche have stated that they will be contacting us at the end of July to confirm delivery address. This would indicate that they have a clear understanding of risks and they are confident of the revised delivery timeframe. This gives me confidence. Whilst others like continual updates as provided by other KS projects, I like the level of professionalism being demonstrated by Niche. Also the relative simplicity of the Niche design means it is far less likely to fall into the endless delays as experienced by the overly complex KS projects.

But hey I am old so what do I know .


----------



## coffeechap

Perhaps @DaveC can shed some light on this as he is in regular contact with Niche


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## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> Perhaps @DaveC can shed some light on this as he is in regular contact with Niche


I suppose I am in "regular" contact more than most but *statements/updates beyond the performance/quality of the grinder (UK and US version) are not really my place to make*. Niche updates and communications are their purview and based on their detailed knowledge and progress of various regulatory certificates (based on a finished grinder), materials availability, production, testing, quality control and delivery. For me to say any more than Niche have already done would be inappropriate because It is not my company, I am not in possession of *all* the facts and I have no right to make such statements..

From a *personal* standpoint only, I don't see this sort of minimal delay as a big deal in a crowd funding project...and based on the experiences of those who have used the grinders I have, I believe people will love it when it arrives, especially if any delay ensures they have the same great user experience I am having with the Niche Zero.


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## dlight

This is a kickstarter project. Of course it is late and of course the communication is poor. It's a kickstarter project.

Those who didn't understand this are simply naive. Some research on kickstarter projects would have been helpful to you.

How about taking a chill pill.

This is quite normal for kickstarter. If you had expectations of a regular product launch, please, please do your research next time.


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## coffeechap

Apologies if that was [email protected]

*You have been involved in the development and feedback on this grinder having been one of the few that have had it on the bench and as such you are in dialogue with martin at Niche*

Therefore perhaps you could speak to them and clear up the speculation?


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## DavecUK

coffeechap said:


> Apologies if that was [email protected]
> 
> *You have been involved in the development and feedback on this grinder having been one of the few that have had it on the bench and as such you are in dialogue with martin at Niche*
> 
> Therefore perhaps you could speak to them and clear up the speculation?


No need to apologise for anything. I am in dialogue with martin at Niche as necessary, but it's mostly about the grinder and any technical issues or lack of them. From time to time martin might ask for advice in other areas...but those chats are sort of private, as would be any conversations I might have with someone. *I could speak to them, but what could I say that you cannot say to them directly on this thread?*

As for speculation, I don't really think there is any is there, they have just given a revised timescale? *When I was working and involved in project management as one of my roles*, items on the "critical path" affect the end date. Project managers try and solve, or mitigate the effect which takes time and once they know whether a delay can be resolved or minimised they make a communication, sometimes with a revised delivery date. When managing projects, you always have to do the groundwork first to make sure any communication was accurate and not rush an inaccurate one out only to change it again in a few weeks..


----------



## Phil104

And I also refer readers to:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?44494-Forum-Rants


----------



## cloughy

Must have put my card details in a dozen times but finally pulled the trigger on the black one! I'm confident this will give me the best bang for buck grinder.


----------



## cloughy

Niche also said that they do not anticipate any delay on new orders so it is still September for new orders at this time.


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## Jony

Yep great choice.


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## cloughy

shipping box is always a good omen surely?


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## ncrc51

Very good omen.


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## mctrials23

Lol, I see it as them sitting there twiddling their thumbs while they wait for the delayed parts to arrive. I reckon we will get more updates for things like this over the next month as they are probably not massively busy until they get to assembling the final grinders. Nice to see though!


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> Lol, I see it as them sitting there twiddling their thumbs while they wait for the delayed parts to arrive. I reckon we will get more updates for things like this over the next month as they are probably not massively busy until they get to assembling the final grinders. Nice to see though!


Like it a lot, looks thicker corrugated cardboard, the boxes for the production tooled ones I felt were a little thin, when I mentioned it Martin said he was thinking the same thing, so they look to have improved things. 1 more corrugated set and and printed too, mine are just plain. The inner packaging is really nice though...very protective and just as it should be, they did a real nice job on that.


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## richwade80

I've finally caved and ordered. I have never backed anything ever before so this is a big deal for me.

After months of researching more expensive grinders, I felt like everything else would be a compromise in some way.

I love design. I'm fortunate enough to have designed and built lots of special structures around the world, so I can appreciate what this is. I'll admit that I wanted something more traditional looking. However, form follows function - so this is it.

I hope it's better than my iberital mc2!


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## DavecUK

richwade80 said:


> I hope it's better than my iberital mc2!


There is no comparison, it's unbelievably better!


----------



## jakobankerhansen

It now looks as if the last black version has been sold out on Indiegogo. Only a few white ones are still available. Will Niche increase the available number of items for sale, or will we just have to wait til after september to purchase through future official website channels at standard price ?

I can live with this, but thanks to all backers for supporting this and hopefully help to bring a new quality grinder brand to the market


----------



## Oblivion

jakobankerhansen said:


> It now looks as if the last black version has been sold out on Indiegogo. Only a few white ones are still available. Will Niche increase the available number of items for sale, or will we just have to wait til after september to purchase through future official website channels at standard price ?
> 
> I can live with this, but thanks to all backers for supporting this and hopefully help to bring a new quality grinder brand to the market


Check the Indiegogo site again as it's been updated. Still a September lead time so you can relax.


----------



## Mrboots2u

richwade80 said:


> I've finally caved and ordered. I have never backed anything ever before so this is a big deal for me.
> 
> After months of researching more expensive grinders, I felt like everything else would be a compromise in some way.
> 
> I love design. I'm fortunate enough to have designed and built lots of special structures around the world, so I can appreciate what this is. I'll admit that I wanted something more traditional looking. However, form follows function - so this is it.
> 
> I hope it's better than my iberital mc2!


It cant be louder that's for sure.


----------



## DavidBondy

Is the full price £425?


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## Jony

Maybe close to £500 plus, and that is if they go into full production.

Indigo site what the price says now is for now.


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## DavidBondy

DavidBondy said:


> Is the full price £425?


I've just found it. The full price before discounts will be £499 which makes my "Super Early Bird" price even keener!!


----------



## Dylan

The retail price of KS/IGG projects is often different to what they hope it to be. Sometimes this is because they have artificially inflated the price to make the reward look better and sometimes its because their production costs were much higher than expected and they need to recoup (Decent is a good example of this, although not crowdfunded)


----------



## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> The retail price of KS/IGG projects is often different to what they hope it to be. Sometimes this is because they have artificially inflated the price to make the reward look better and sometimes its because their production costs were much higher than expected and they need to recoup (Decent is a good example of this, although not crowdfunded)


Well the high quality Mazzer burrs they went with significantly increased the production price, so I would guess the latter part of your statement is true.. It was a choice between a good grinder and a great grinder and I am happy to say they chose to make a great grinder!

I think the people who got in at the ground floor right at the beginning got a really fantastic deal.


----------



## cloughy

I got in at the £400 mark which I'm still happy with. I deduced I was not going to find a grinder of that quality in the same price bracket. The fact it looks pretty good as well (IMO) is a bonus


----------



## Dylan

DavecUK said:


> Well the high quality Mazzer burrs they went with significantly increased the production price, so I would guess the latter part of your statement is true.. It was a choice between a good grinder and a great grinder and I am happy to say they chose to make a great grinder!
> 
> I think the people who got in at the ground floor right at the beginning got a really fantastic deal.


Yea I'm not insinuating Niche inflated the retail price, as we know from other grinders in this kind of class the suggested retail price is very keen indeed. I just mentioned this as something that is common on KS/IGG in general.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Just received an email from Indiegogo, Niche now has a website!

It's actually very professionally done too imo. This is very promising indeed in my book!

www.nichecoffee.co.uk


----------



## jlarkin

I've been enjoying using the pre-production Niche grinder the last few months. This photo is from our event at the weekend, so handy to have the Niche for decaf and other options.


----------



## Jony

Oh you lucky boy,haha


----------



## M4xime

DavecUK said:


> There is no comparison, it's unbelievably better!


 @DavecUK How would you compare it to a Eureka Mignon if you've played with that one too? Worth the wait, extra ££?


----------



## DavecUK

M4xime said:


> @DavecUK How would you compare it to a Eureka Mignon if you've played with that one too? Worth the wait, extra ££?


There is simply no comparison with a Mignon and yes absolutely worth the wait. However, if the Mignon is all you can afford, then yes it's a decent entry level grinder.


----------



## M4xime

DavecUK said:


> There is simply no comparison with a Mignon and yes absolutely worth the wait. However, if the Mignon is all you can afford, then yes it's a decent entry level grinder.


I'm currently using an old Fiorenzato F5 but looking to upgrade/change so in that case it could be worth waiting a bit longer.


----------



## PineappleMonkey

Update 24We can confirm that we have chosen DPD as our shipping agent for delivering the grinder to you.

The Niche Team feels the service DPD offers best reflects the way we want our business to run.

We have been very impressed with the customer service options they provide.

By choosing DPD for our shipping, we have also been able to expand our shipping to more European countries.

We have also added some pictures to our Indiegogo story of production parts ready for shipping to us.



















It looks like they will be shipping soon!?! I hope!


----------



## jj-x-ray

PineappleMonkey said:


> Update 24We can confirm that we have chosen DPD as our shipping agent for delivering the grinder to you.
> 
> The Niche Team feels the service DPD offers best reflects the way we want our business to run.
> 
> We have been very impressed with the customer service options they provide.
> 
> By choosing DPD for our shipping, we have also been able to expand our shipping to more European countries.
> 
> We have also added some pictures to our Indiegogo story of production parts ready for shipping to us.
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 34665
> 
> 
> View attachment 34666
> 
> 
> It looks like they will be shipping soon!?! I hope!


DPD......good luck everyone


----------



## Jony

My DPD round here is ok. I wish now I had ordered the early ones, never mind.


----------



## mctrials23

Haha, I don't think there is such a thing as a "good" delivery company. They are all as bad as the driver and almost of all of them expect far too much of their drivers. DPD are by no means the worst. Middle of the road in my experience.

I don't think this means any improvement in the delivery prediction of August either. Certainly nothing in this post changes it.


----------



## PPapa

DPD means a week earlier compared to Hermes or Yodel though.


----------



## les24preludes

mctrials23 said:


> Haha, I don't think there is such a thing as a "good" delivery company. They are all as bad as the driver and almost of all of them expect far too much of their drivers. DPD are by no means the worst. Middle of the road in my experience.


Exactly. "They are all as bad as the driver"...

My experience of DPD is the worst drivers ever - far worse than Hermes. They're also hard to claim against because they claim that the buyer "refused delivery" when the driver makes errors. In my case he rang the wrong bell on one occasion and totally lost it on another. Obviously just a personal view, but if a seller uses DPD I ask them to use Royal Mail instead.


----------



## PaulL

I only have one criticism of the new website assuming Martin is reading the forum. If you scroll down the home page and look at the tamping photo on the left of the "Respect your coffee" text, the tamper base is not level. Geeky perhaps but the Niche is so good it deserves that base to be perfectly level!


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## mctrials23

New update picture of them doing what they say is a test assembly of production parts. They say that they are still working towards an august delivery though so I don't think this changes anything on the ETA.


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> New update picture of them doing what they say is a test assembly of production parts. They say that they are still working towards an august delivery though so I don't think this changes anything on the ETA.


It's nice to see photos of what is effectively the birth of a new product and company, one I hope will spell a major change in the coffee world as far as grinders go. The birth of affordable, big very high quality burr, small package domestic grinders.

When I think of a commercial grinder on a kitchen counter producing perhaps 3 or 4 espresso grinds a day.....It makes me think of something like this!


----------



## Niche Coffee

That picture made me laugh out loud!

Just have to say once again, thank you so much for your input along our journey DavecUK. The independent report was a "game changer" for us, resulting in so much interest and supporters literally worldwide.

We have pre-production grinders out on heavy test with roasters, cafes, baristas and other coffee experts. The testimonials keep coming back, endorsing what DavecUK has said. We are in talks with various people about possible collaborations, so busy times.

Just to cover various comments made on the forum recently, I assure you we are still working really hard behind the scenes - hence why we don't tend to be active on the forums around the world.

A selection of the current tasks are:

To ensure the parts are all correct before shipping.

Delivered a new website to reflect our mission statement "Our goal at Niche is to make your coffee experience simply delicious".

Numerous safety and endurance testing before successfully applying for our approvals

Writing documents for the assembly line.

Setting up the warehouse ready to receive parts and hold grinder stock.

Sourcing other suppliers for small parts, insurance, shipping agent, freight agent and the list goes on - if you can imagine your kitchen roll is a list, you have the picture!

The end of our crowdfunding journey, delivering the Niche grinder to our initial supporters is in sight.

Later this year we will finish with Indiegogo and sales will be direct from our website, when the grinder will be £500 plus shipping. So get your order in quick if you want a deal!


----------



## Kitkat

I'm really looking forward to seeing how this is received when everyone gets their mitts on one







. It's on my short list for a grinder upgrade early next year.


----------



## Kman10

I'm really looking forward to seeing these out in the wild, I never had the money to invest early but I'm happy to save for one in the future.


----------



## Kyle T

PaulL said:


> I only have one criticism of the new website assuming Martin is reading the forum. If you scroll down the home page and look at the tamping photo on the left of the "Respect your coffee" text, the tamper base is not level. Geeky perhaps but the Niche is so good it deserves that base to be perfectly level!


I noticed that too and thought the same thing!


----------



## Stanic

yep I also noticed







but you could say that the photo captures just a moment of the tamping process


----------



## M4xime

Getting more and more tempted to join you all on this adventure! Especially after watching Dave's review videos


----------



## ashcroc

M4xime said:


> Getting more and more tempted to join you all on this adventure! Especially after watching Dave's review videos


Given the size of your kitchen (& Gizmo) it wouldn't be a bad choice.


----------



## M4xime

ashcroc said:


> Given the size of your kitchen (& Gizmo) it wouldn't be a bad choice.


Haha yeah, I'd struggle to get a good grinder that's closer than the Niche compared to Gizmo


----------



## DavecUK

The open door for anyone who wants to try the Niche still stands. I am in Byfleet near Woking if you live close enough. So far though, the grinders have been working flawlessly and only get better as the burrs run in.


----------



## martinierius

I can't remember reading in this thread about alignment. How is the Niche doing on that topic: any woble visible when running? For example some manufacturers mention maximum deviation etc. Is there anything known for the Niche?


----------



## MWJB

martinierius said:


> For example some manufacturers mention maximum deviation etc. Is there anything known for the Niche?


Which manufacturers?


----------



## DavecUK

martinierius said:


> I can't remember reading in this thread about alignment. How is the Niche doing on that topic: any woble visible when running? For example some manufacturers mention maximum deviation etc. Is there anything known for the Niche?


I didn't notice any....really though it's down to grind quality...which is excellent. You can have all the specifications you want on paper, but ultimately it's down to how it works. It's very easy to use, quiet, no fuss, ultra low retention, hundredths of gram accuracy, great grind quality, small, simple electronics, easy to maintain. Everything I, and I assume other home users want out of a grinder. I actually love using it....I still weigh the output vs the input, not because I need to, but because I am constantly amazed that when I put 18.08g in and get 18.04g out. *I even start worrying when I put 18.08 in and get 17.98 out...It's ridiculous, because you have to tell yourself, no, no, it's ONLY 0.11g...relax.*



*
*As a cupping grinder in a roastery....there is nothing to beat it if you only have small samples to grind and don't want any mixing. I pretty much think every roaster should have one (serious)!


----------



## M4xime

That's it, I'm committing and pulling the trigger tomorrow and will be another Niche backer. Going for white!


----------



## thebookfreak58

I've wondered about alignment too (I've backed). (as opposed to retention, less of a concern).

I emailed Niche, the response was:



> Burr alignment and grind quality has been a central part of the design from the beginning 4 years ago.
> 
> A unique part of the design allows us to get very good burr alignment and precise separation for grind particle size.


I'd be cool to see some distribution graphs that could confirm this? Then can compare to other conicals, eg to Monolith Conical. (Obviously vastly different price range)

Looking forward to getting mine!!


----------



## martinierius

MWJB said:


> Which manufacturers?


I based myself on





 but it is not a manufacturer guarantee but rather a test of a prototype. So I appologise, should have verified.

Perhaps other manufacturer do guarantee something in this regard?


----------



## MWJB

martinierius said:


> I based myself on


That just looks to be the roundness of the body?

I don't think manufacturers guarantee any specific level of alignment. If the grinder works as intended, it must be at least adequate. There don't seem to be any figures anywhere for standard tolerances vs ideal based on preference in cup (certainly not from manufacturers).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

martinierius said:


> I based myself on


The whole advertising of the Kinu range revolved around burr alignment and no rubbing. In turn that was their argument for excellent quality in the cup.

I had spoken to Christian (Kinu head engineer an year ago at length) and, assuming likewise for the Niche, there was a lot of R&D - years - before they even consider thinking about production.

I had the pleasure to have owned one M68 and I can tell you the grind quality was excellent. The burrs were perfectly aligned and, even in the finest setting there was no wobbling.

It's only after I went back to other grinders, in my case the Feld2 (another great grinder in its category) that I really noticed how good the Kinu was.

PS: I also backed the Niche. Can't wait!


----------



## lake_m

What's the latest on delivery? Kind of forgotten about this little baby.


----------



## cloughy

lake_m said:


> What's the latest on delivery? Kind of forgotten about this little baby.


August for the early birds I believe


----------



## DavecUK

martinierius said:


> I based myself on


I'm not sure really what the Video is showing as regards grinder performance to be honest. It looks like they are verifying the end float in a grinder case on a lathe....nothing to do with grind quality or burr alignment?

I did look them up and they seem to be a decent effort at a hi end hand grinder. OK'ish conical burrs from Italmill. Not really comparing apples with apples though.


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> I'm not sure really what the Video is showing as regards grinder performance to be honest. It looks like they are verifying the end float in a grinder case on a lathe....nothing to do with grind quality or burr alignment?
> 
> I did look them up and they seem to be a decent effort at a hi end hand grinder. OK'ish conical burrs from Italmill. Not really comparing apples with apples though.


The video looks a bit stupid to me - it's tube and it's round but I don't see what the graduations are on the dti. Looks like a rather bizare method of measuring run out as well. A strong case of the texas stuff in other words. The deflections look to be run out rather than ovality etc anyway.

John

-


----------



## martinierius

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The whole advertising of the Kinu range revolved around burr alignment and no rubbing. In turn that was their argument for excellent quality in the cup.
> 
> I had spoken to Christian (Kinu head engineer an year ago at length) and, assuming likewise for the Niche, there was a lot of R&D - years - before they even consider thinking about production.
> 
> I had the pleasure to have owned one M68 and I can tell you the grind quality was excellent. The burrs were perfectly aligned and, even in the finest setting there was no wobbling.
> 
> It's only after I went back to other grinders, in my case the Feld2 (another great grinder in its category) that I really noticed how good the Kinu was.
> 
> PS: I also backed the Niche. Can't wait!


I was trying to find a reference to that but failed. Anyway, I backed the Niche too so hoping it will deliver in the cup and maybe someone wil someday find a way to relate alignment and improvement of taste.


----------



## tohenk2

Sadly I must have missed the Niche booth umphteen times at the World Of Coffee Amsterdam last Friday, I would have loved to have seen Martin and the grinder myself. (I backed it and am waiting for delivery in August.) Missed the Socrates booth also, they seem to have compared an Orphan Espresso Grinder output to an EK43. Maybe they also did the Niche?


----------



## jlarkin

tohenk2 said:


> Sadly I must have missed the Niche booth umphteen times at the World Of Coffee Amsterdam last Friday, I would have loved to have seen Martin and the grinder myself. (I backed it and am waiting for delivery in August.) Missed the Socrates booth also, they seem to have compared an Orphan Espresso Grinder output to an EK43. Maybe they also did the Niche?


I think from the email the Niche was on another stand? So it might not have stood out as much as some


----------



## Kilo

DavecUK said:


> I'm not sure really what the Video is showing as regards grinder performance to be honest. It looks like they are verifying the end float in a grinder case on a lathe....nothing to do with grind quality or burr alignment?
> 
> I did look them up and they seem to be a decent effort at a hi end hand grinder. OK'ish conical burrs from Italmill. Not really comparing apples with apples though.


Funny, how views differ in different countries or forums: in the German coffee forum, the KINU grinders are considered top of the bill in handgrinders. The Niche on the other hand is hardly talked about there.


----------



## DavecUK

Kilo said:


> Funny, how views differ in different countries or forums: in the German coffee forum, the KINU grinders are considered top of the bill in handgrinders. The Niche on the other hand is hardly talked about there.


The Kinu is German made of course and the Niche British made....perhaps that's why!


----------



## Kilo

Obviously. And forum members don't look easily over the border in this respect.


----------



## Dylan

Kilo said:


> Funny, how views differ in different countries or forums: in the German coffee forum, the KINU grinders are considered top of the bill in handgrinders. The Niche on the other hand is hardly talked about there.


I think they are considered as some of the top hand grinders here as well, not a huge amount of members own them but those that do speak very highly of them. They are a luxury item however and expensive when new, they compare more to the likes of the HG-One than an MBK or Niche which are both more in a 'punch well above their [monetary] weight' category. Based on others opinions at the moment of course, the Niche still needs to go through its public release before forming an opinion would be wise.


----------



## Phil104

> Sadly I must have missed the Niche booth umphteen times at the World Of Coffee Amsterdam last Friday, I would have loved to have seen Martin and the grinder myself. (I backed it and am waiting for delivery in August.) Missed the Socrates booth also, they seem to have compared an Orphan Espresso Grinder output to an EK43. Maybe they also did the Niche?





jlarkin said:


> I think from the email the Niche was on another stand? So it might not have stood out as much as some


They could easily have been missed at the London Coffee Festival, tucked away and sharing a stand. It is a shame you missed them tohenk2, Martin and Annie are a great couple.


----------



## Niche Coffee

DavecUK said:


> I didn't notice any....really though it's down to grind quality...which is excellent. You can have all the specifications you want on paper, but ultimately it's down to how it works. It's very easy to use, quiet, no fuss, ultra low retention, hundredths of gram accuracy, great grind quality, small, simple electronics, easy to maintain. Everything I, and I assume other home users want out of a grinder. I actually love using it....I still weigh the output vs the input, not because I need to, but because I am constantly amazed that when I put 18.08g in and get 18.04g out. *I even start worrying when I put 18.08 in and get 17.98 out...It's ridiculous, because you have to tell yourself, no, no, it's ONLY 0.11g...relax.*
> 
> 
> 
> *
> *As a cupping grinder in a roastery....there is nothing to beat it if you only have small samples to grind and don't want any mixing. I pretty much think every roaster should have one (serious)!


We are glad we're not the only ones Dave as we still weigh in and out every time! And even when it's a few hundredths of a gram more than we were expecting, we just remember that it's still less than the weight of a single coffee bean (0.1-0.15g). Great to see that after all this time you're still loving the grinder and enjoying using it!


----------



## mctrials23

Every time I hear some praise from Dave for the Niche it makes me sad that I don't have this grinder already!


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> Every time I hear some praise from Dave for the Niche it makes me sad that I don't have this grinder already!


Not long to go now, before you know it August will be here and I look forward to having everything I love about the Niche being confirmed by other happy owners.


----------



## mctrials23

DavecUK said:


> Not long to go now, before you know it August will be here and I look forward to having everything I love about the Niche being confirmed by other happy owners.


Thats what you said when they first confirmed that it would be delayed until August and yet here we are, still in June! I know it won't happen but every time I see that Niche have updated their indiegogo I secretly get excited that it will say "our suppliers hav come through with all the parts and we will have them all ready in the next few weeks!". Ahh, a man can dream.


----------



## rdpx

Does anyone know how the delay will affect those of us who signed up later? When we backed it it was for an August delivery, so does anyone know if that means we should now expect Sept/Oct?

R


----------



## cloughy

rdpx said:


> Does anyone know how the delay will affect those of us who signed up later? When we backed it it was for an August delivery, so does anyone know if that means we should now expect Sept/Oct?
> 
> R


When I contacted niche they said the delay should not have an onward effect so I can still expect a sept delivery in theory


----------



## aidodo

Thanks DavecUK for all the great work. I decided to buy myself a niche. This will be my first proper grinder (currently have a crap Delonghi ), so very excited.

Just saw the latest update on IGG, price is going up £440 next week.


----------



## 9719

Latest from the boys and girls at Niche

Now is the last chance to pre-order the Niche Zero for September delivery at the current price of £425.

This price will be available until next Wednesday (7th*of July) when it will increase to £440.

Now is the perfect time to get your Niche Zero at the best possible price so don't miss out.

Once we start building and delivering the Niche Zero in August, the price will be RRP £500.

Buy it here* -*https://igg.me/at/nichezerogrinder

So if you haven't jumped aboard as yet and you're interested in one of these it's make your mind up time.


----------



## iulianato

It's a bit confusing this update. Is it until Wednesdays 4th of July or Saturday 7th of July?


----------



## 9719

iulianato said:


> It's a bit confusing this update. Is it until Wednesdays 4th of July or Saturday 7th of July?


Well spotted they do seem to have there dates a little muddled best if anyone is interested to contact them directly for a confirmation, or just pull the trigger


----------



## lake_m

Daft question but why would I want this as an update? I've already bought one.

Or does this update go out to anyone who has expressed an interest?


----------



## 9719

I bought one right at the beginning so that's me covered, still received the update via email and was just passing it on to inform anyone who's still undecided. Hope that helps



lake_m said:


> Daft question but why would I want this as an update? I've already bought one.
> 
> Or does this update go out to anyone who has expressed an interest?


----------



## lake_m

********** said:


> I bought one right at the beginning so that's me covered, still received the update via email and was just passing it on to inform anyone who's still undecided. Hope that helps


Sorry @********** - the comment was directed more at Niche, not at yourself for passing it on.









It's not a big deal - just wondered that's all.


----------



## Dayks

lake_m said:


> Sorry @********** - the comment was directed more at Niche, not at yourself for passing it on.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a big deal - just wondered that's all.


Think it may be an all or nothing situation, suspect they can send it to everyone or no-one (possibly backers only like kickstarter as well).


----------



## jaffro

lake_m said:


> Daft question but why would I want this as an update? I've already bought one.
> 
> Or does this update go out to anyone who has expressed an interest?


I guess it's so that, if you know anyone who might be interested, you tell them to grab one quick while they're still a lower price? Or maybe in the hope that you decide you really need two of them and grab a second...

Agreed though, I was wondering why I'd need the update!


----------



## iulianato

Why do you think that the updates are for the backers only? Anyone looking to join the founding would follow the uptates and this one would probably be a decision factor for him.


----------



## Niche Coffee

Our mistake guys sorry. Was meant to read 4th of July not 7th. And the update was meant for all, in case anyone was thinking of pulling the trigger or getting another.


----------



## enrm6

Taken the plunge on a white Niche Zero. Looks like an awesome bit of kit. I have to say though that the £10 shipping was disappointing.


----------



## Beeroclock

enrm6 said:


> Taken the plunge on a white Niche Zero. Looks like an awesome bit of kit. I have to say though that the £10 shipping was disappointing.


Why's that? would have thought sending a parcel that size fully insured would pretty much be in that ball park...


----------



## DavecUK

Beeroclock said:


> Why's that? would have thought sending a parcel that size fully insured would pretty much be in that ball park...


I guess if you want free shipping any amount is disappointing....although as we know, there is no such thing as free shipping.


----------



## mctrials23

Yeah, £10 is pretty good considering the size, weight and insurance that will be required. I think amazon prime has spoiled a lot of us. Even then we are paying for it, albeit as part of a range of benefits.


----------



## Mrboots2u

enrm6 said:


> Taken the plunge on a white Niche Zero. Looks like an awesome bit of kit. I have to say though that the £10 shipping was disappointing.


Lol....some people want the moon on a stick. You have to pay for shipping one way or another .


----------



## Jony

£10 is pretty basic really. TA


----------



## enrm6

Well that's just it isn't it, rarely do you pay for shipping as a separate cost any more.

That said it is £500 worth of kit and they are a start up so probably don't have big purchasing power on postage, yet.


----------



## Dylan

As has been said above. If postage is 'free' then the seller has just adjusted the price of their product to include the postage cost.

And you are obviously picking the stores you buy from fairly specifically, the vast vast majority still charge for postage.


----------



## lake_m

Same story with Amazon Prime. They just add the cost of postage onto the price and call it free postage. Total scam.


----------



## ashcroc

lake_m said:


> Same story with Amazon Prime. They just add the cost of postage onto the price and call it free postage. Total scam.


Amazon Prime isn't free postage. They just take a £79/year charge to give you the illusion.


----------



## 9719

Easy one this should have jumped aboard right at the start then a tenner might not have seemed so important


----------



## enrm6

ashcroc said:


> Amazon Prime isn't free postage. They just take a £79/year charge to give you the illusion.


Actually Prime gives you a whole host of features for your £79 such as the free media content. In this instance postage probably is very much free. But Amazon are an unusual business case and one has to wonder how sustainable it is.


----------



## Mrboots2u

enrm6 said:


> Actually Prime gives you a whole host of features for your £79 such as the free media content. In this instance postage probably is very much free. But Amazon are an unusual business case and one has to wonder how sustainable it is.


All that lovely Amazon echo data will keep em going.

Considering they are posting record profits then until people get serious about where to collect and tax evasion ( and this will be never ) then they will continue to rule the roost.


----------



## Dylan

When you pay less tax than most other companies and can buy in phenomenal bulk and choose a business model that makes no 'profit' you have quite a lot of movement on price.

That said - companies that fulfill for Amazon and thus offer 'free' prime delivery often have the same product for a few quid cheaper on their own site before adding the cost of delivery.


----------



## Dylan

Mrboots2u said:


> posting record profits


record growth, not record profit, I think.

edit:

Turns out I'm talking about outdated information, and Amazon are posting growing profits year on year now.

edit2:

It's retail arm is still essentially non-profit.

https://www.recode.net/2018/2/1/16961598/amazon-jeff-bezos-record-profit-11-quarter-q4-2017-earnings


----------



## Jony

Niche thread!


----------



## mctrials23

enrm6 said:


> Actually Prime gives you a whole host of features for your £79 such as the free media content. In this instance postage probably is very much free. But Amazon are an unusual business case and one has to wonder how sustainable it is.


Perfectly sustainable. If any of you have netflix and amazon prime you will realise that prime video is crap compared to netflix. Most people I know have amazon prime mainly for the postage and occasionally use prime video. They charge most people £79 year for essentially postage and they have so many customers that their own couriers are delivering a huge number of packages in a small area. If you are delivering 100 packages in a 2 mile radius vs another company that has to deliver 100 packages in a 5 mile radius you will be far more efficient and thus it will cost less. Amazon will take a cut of any products listed on their site as well so they are making money from 2 places. The only reason they weren't posting profits for such a long time is because they were ploughing money into the business to make it the behemoth it is today.

Anyway, back on topic. Theres no such thing as a free lunch. Someone always pays and its almost always you.


----------



## Dylan

Disagree that Prime video is crap compared to Netflix, they both have good shows on them with Netflix edging it on originals - but considering its cheaper than Netflix and they have much less spending power in their Film/TV creation this is unsurprising.

Prime represents a huge bargain just for the free next day delivery if you order more than 10 items a year, roll in Prime Video, Prime deals and the fact that their customer service rarely ever challenge any kind of return if you are a Prime member and you would be hard pressed to find a better value for money product.


----------



## hammerme

Ok so i currently have a K30 Vario which is great, but i would like to single dose. would i be mad selling my K30 and swapping to one of these?


----------



## Mrboots2u

hammerme said:


> Ok so i currently have a K30 Vario which is great, but i would like to single dose. would i be mad selling my K30 and swapping to one of these?


Who know? who has put one up against the other ? K30 holds about 4g from memory , I used to single dose it .


----------



## PineappleMonkey

I currently have a K30 Vario, as soon as my niche comes I will be sure to give an update on it versus the Vario if you would like. I keep my Vario's short hopper mostly full, but I miss single dosing, hence my reason for getting in on the niche after reading Dave's excellent review.


----------



## DavecUK

PineappleMonkey said:


> I currently have a K30 Vario, as soon as my niche comes I will be sure to give an update on it versus the Vario if you would like. I keep my Vario's short hopper mostly full, but I miss single dosing, hence my reason for getting in on the niche after reading Dave's excellent review.


I am pretty sure...nay certain that you will be very pleasantly surprised....I am pretty sure the Niche will totally over deliver on your expectations. The US one I have been testing for months is completely run in now and dose consistency, retention etc.,. has improved as the burrs ran in. I usually get (and expect) a variance of around 0.04g from what I put in to what I get out, even when adjusting grind between the Vesuvius and Minima (the V needs about 5 marks finer than the M).


----------



## hammerme

thanks guys i may have to take the plunge and buy Niche looks so much more kitchen friendly too. my wife wont let me keep the K30 in kitchen as too big so its stuck in utility!


----------



## ncrc51

DavecUK said:


> I am pretty sure...nay certain that you will be very pleasantly surprised....I am pretty sure the Niche will totally over deliver on your expectations. The US one I have been testing for months is completely run in now and dose consistency, retention etc.,. has improved as the burrs ran in. I usually get (and expect) a variance of around 0.04g from what I put in to what I get out, even when adjusting grind between the Vesuvius and Minima (the V needs about 5 marks finer than the M).


I think you should ship me your U.S. one as there appears to be no more information to be gained and it's probably about worn out.


----------



## DavecUK

ncrc51 said:


> I think you should ship me your U.S. one as there appears to be no more information to be gained and it's probably about worn out.


The important thing is to make sure it's really heavily used, so that any problems show up before they ship. The US motor has probably not been used as much as the UK motors, so every minute is useful. I stopped load testing the UK one once I got the US one. UK motor seems bulletproof enough after all the abuse. US one is looking good as well. You wouldn't want the US one I have, the burrs must have done 25-30Kg, that means they only have perhaps 725kg life in them....so mebbe 25 years. I do have another little Video I want to make for the US grinder, because the transformer I have undervolts it a bit, which is hjarder for grind chamber clearance, interestingly it does seem to do fine though. I won't say more until the Video is done.


----------



## ncrc51

Pretty sure I don't have 25 years. I'm showing a lot of use/abuse as well.


----------



## Kyle T

Dylan said:


> Disagree that Prime video is crap compared to Netflix, they both have good shows on them with Netflix edging it on originals - but considering its cheaper than Netflix and they have much less spending power in their Film/TV creation this is unsurprising.
> 
> Prime represents a huge bargain just for the free next day delivery if you order more than 10 items a year, roll in Prime Video, Prime deals and the fact that their customer service rarely ever challenge any kind of return if you are a Prime member and you would be hard pressed to find a better value for money product.


Free same day delivery now....i used it once or twice. I'd be lost without Amazon Prime. I dont know how people managed without it lol. But its true that using Amazon Prime for delivery does put me off using companies that charge for delivery separately. It especially puts me off any company that says "3-5 working days" for delivery. As for the Niche costing £10 for delivery, i dont mind, plus its not like i can get it anywhere else :-D


----------



## DavecUK

An update on the US Niche I am testing.

I have been testing the US version for around 3 months now and it has performed flawlessly so far. The only difference is the motor and plug. The transformer I am using does give a slightly lower voltage (10% lower) than they get in the US and so the motor runs a bit slower....I was worried that the grind chamber may not clear as well. Some coffee forum people were round, I had just pulled 3 doubles, so I thought...this is a great time to open up the Niche and see what it looks like inside...I purposely had not opened it up to clean it for nearly 3 months. I figured that I might as well have some witnesses.

Here is what I found (and no it has not been cleaned):









Sorry about the quality, I only had the phone and not great light. However I found almost nothing....is exactly what I hoped and expected to find. This is great because the less there is the less to mix and the less to go stale or rancid.

Of course ideally I should have cleaned it...but I thought about another test. I put the burr back, popped the top ring back on and took it exactly to the same setting on the adjuster ring I had had before, when I used it to pull 3 delicious shots of Daterra Sweet Blue. *I explained to the forum guys that this "should" come back to exactly the same grind setting....but might fractionally change the in out dose consistency for the first grind.*

*
*

18.07g in and 17.99g out....so not too bad and the shot poured exactly the same as the previous ones before I opened the grinder. I suppose I shouldn't really be surprised by now...


----------



## ncrc51

OK. So now you can ship it to me so it can be tested with "official USA voltage!" Also, please don't retire.


----------



## hotmetal

Cheers Dave for the lovely daterra and the up-close and personal with the Niche and assorted machines! I was very impressed with the Niche, it certainly punches above its weight considering the size and price. Retention on that thing is unbelievably low, I think my Aergrind retains more!

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## DavecUK

hotmetal said:


> Cheers Dave for the lovely daterra and the up-close and personal with the Niche and assorted machines! I was very impressed with the Niche, it certainly punches above its weight considering the size and price. Retention on that thing is unbelievably low, I think my Aergrind retains more!
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


I will be interested in how you get on with the Daterra Sweet Blue...I am absolutely loving it, really rich with loads of body and it's improving by the day.


----------



## hotmetal

I'll definitely report back once it's in the hopper. I was trying to remember your recipe for this, was it 18-42? Obviously I'll need to dial it in after the natural Shakiso Mormora, but I can't remember what I should be aiming at to reproduce the shot we had round yours.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## DavecUK

hotmetal said:


> I'll definitely report back once it's in the hopper. I was trying to remember your recipe for this, was it 18-42? Obviously I'll need to dial it in after the natural Shakiso Mormora, but I can't remember what I should be aiming at to reproduce the shot we had round yours.
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


I did 18g in and 45g out.


----------



## DavidBondy

Has anyone received their Niche yet? Any ideas on when they will start shipping?


----------



## Mrboots2u

DavidBondy said:


> Has anyone received their Niche yet? Any ideas on when they will start shipping?


Last update for delivery was August on this thread, but to wait yet Mr Bondy


----------



## DavidBondy

Thanks ... I may have to buy something (cheap and cheerful) to tide me over now that my Titus looks to be sold ...


----------



## Phil104

DavidBondy said:


> Thanks ... I may have to buy something (cheap and cheerful) to tide me over now that my Titus looks to be sold ...


An even simpler grinder (and an espresso machine)?


----------



## PineappleMonkey

Looks like they are getting ready to ship out our units. Update 32 tells anyone who needs to update their address to do so before the 27th of this month.

To update shipping info: Go to Profile -> My contributions -> "View contribution details" (Under perk section) -> Lower right side will have your address listed in light grey with edit button underneath it. Looks like it's almost time to enjoy!


----------



## Kyle T

DavecUK said:


> I will be interested in how you get on with the Daterra Sweet Blue...I am absolutely loving it, really rich with loads of body and it's improving by the day.


Where's the Daterra Sweet Blue from @DavecUK


----------



## DavecUK

Kyle T said:


> Where's the Daterra Sweet Blue from @DavecUK


I could say Daterra Farms Brazil...but my guess is you are after the name D R Wakefield, the import wholesaler.....It is part of my special stash of pentapacked Brazilians I bought a while ago.


----------



## Inglorious Alf

Took the plunge and bought myself a black one of these to replace my struggling Vario. Super excited, roll on September!


----------



## PineappleMonkey

Seems Martin liked my instructions to update the address as it's update #33


----------



## Jony

Inglorious Alf said:


> Took the plunge and bought myself a black one of these to replace my struggling Vario. Super excited, roll on September!


Great upgrade.


----------



## thesmileyone

Will I get any better taste / consistancy out of a Niche vs my Mignon Mk2? Is a gaggia classic good enough for a Niche or even say, a Mythos for example?


----------



## Mrboots2u

thesmileyone said:


> Will I get any better taste / consistancy out of a Niche vs my Mignon Mk2? Is a gaggia classic good enough for a Niche or even say, a Mythos for example?


Don't get a Mythos and a classic.

A better grinder may improve your coffee experience but it will still be limited by the awful temp stability of the classic. Which mean you may get a great coffee sometimes but struggle to repeat it.

Consistetcy and temp surfing do not go hand in hand


----------



## thesmileyone

Mrboots2u said:


> Don't get a Mythos and a classic.
> 
> A better grinder may improve your coffee experience but it will still be limited by the awful temp stability of the classic. Which mean you may get a great coffee sometimes but struggle to repeat it.
> 
> Consistetcy and temp surfing do not go hand in hand


I think it has some modifications to fix those problems. (I bought it secondhand with all the mods) I know it definetly has an OPV, whatever that means.

Too upgrade I am really looking at £1200+ secondhand or £2200 new (ECM Synkronicity). I really desire dual boiler and rotary pump. As it stands I can't make coffee super early in the morning because the vibration pump in this is too loud.


----------



## Mrboots2u

thesmileyone said:


> I think it has some modifications to fix those problems. (I bought it secondhand with all the mods) I know it definetly has an OPV, whatever that means.
> 
> Too upgrade I am really looking at £1200+ secondhand or £2200 new (ECM Synkronicity). I really desire dual boiler and rotary pump. As it stands I can't make coffee super early in the morning because the vibration pump in this is too loud.


Add a PID , OPV doesnt effect the thermostat and temp stability .


----------



## Dylan

thesmileyone said:


> I think it has some modifications to fix those problems. (I bought it secondhand with all the mods) I know it definetly has an OPV, whatever that means.
> 
> Too upgrade I am really looking at £1200+ secondhand or £2200 new (ECM Synkronicity). I really desire dual boiler and rotary pump. As it stands I can't make coffee super early in the morning because the vibration pump in this is too loud.


I have been using my Flair Manual Lever a lot recently as I'm moving out of my old place - you still have to manage the temperature by keeping the brew chamber hot (easy enough) but it's whisper quiet and I am always really pleased with the coffee it produces.


----------



## mctrials23

Another update to the Indiegogo. Bit disappointed to be honest. I got the impression from the recent updates that they were already building them and were getting ready to ship the first ones out to customers. They aren't even at the point of having all the parts yet.


----------



## PPapa

mctrials23 said:


> Another update to the Indiegogo. Bit disappointed to be honest. I got the impression from the recent updates that they were already building them and were getting ready to ship the first ones out to customers. They aren't even at the point of having all the parts yet.


It looks promising though. Plenty of time until the end of August.

On the other hand, it's been 11 months now and I still haven't received an AerGrind from Made by Knock/Kickstarter campaign .


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> Another update to the Indiegogo. Bit disappointed to be honest. I got the impression from the recent updates that they were already building them and were getting ready to ship the first ones out to customers. They aren't even at the point of having all the parts yet.


Well there is all the other stuff that needs to be in place before things can ship, I would imagine that in itself was more than enough work....so they will have had plenty of time to do that. I suspect the build is the least of the problems they had to deal with in recent months, packaging, user guide, certifications, delivery admin etc... I think it's far more comforting to be told the truth than nothing, far better stuff is not rushed out, but made to a good spec....I learnt in business that if you push your suppliers to far and they always meet timescales, but rarely meet quality standards.

*
Just an armchair thought experiment...I saw Martin dissemble a prototype and then reassemble in in under 5 minutes* while chatting (a prototype). This is all production stuff...if martin personally assembled the grinders on his own in the most inefficient way (one after the other)...even at one every 5 minutes (half the speed he is capable of), he could do the whole lot in around 40-50 hours. If he had to do testing, packing and sealing the box and we say another 10 minutes per grinder. *Working on his own he could probably have them all done in 3 weeks.* Let alone the August then the September deliveries

This is of course if he was working completely on his own in the most inefficient way possible, which would be just silly. Realistically, I don't see how his team will have a problem building all the grinders ordered pretty quickly once everything is in place. I suspect the only thing that will stop them over delivering would be their wish to ensure they are thoroughly tested before boxing. Personally I would say just look forward to getting them very soon.....I know it's easy for me to say, but trust me it's worth the wait.

P.S. I should also add that most project go quiet leading up to delivery...I always think that's a far more ominous sighn...regular announcements are always good news!


----------



## Beeroclock

Have to admit that posting a load of pictures of Niche parts ready for being built and then showing pictures of a Niche being assembled - only to be told all the parts are not here is a bit like whipping the ice-cream away from ones mouth...


----------



## DavecUK

Beeroclock said:


> Have to admit that posting a load of pictures of Niche parts ready for being built and then showing pictures of a Niche being assembled - only to be told all the parts are not here is a bit like whipping the ice-cream away from ones mouth...


I think that photo was accompanied by this update?



> Check out the new pictures on our story, including practice assembly of the grinder and production parts ready for delivery to us from our suppliers.
> 
> We hope you enjoy these images and seeing where we are at in the project.
> 
> We are still working towards August delivery for the first backers and we will keep you updated.


----------



## mctrials23

Oh I have no doubts they will deliver in August, I just got the impression that they were pretty much ready to be shipping these. The updates didn't really make it clear exactly what was happening and the last few updates about shipping addresses lead me to think we would be getting them in the next week or so after the address change cutoff. Looking back over the posts I was probably seeing what I wanted to but I am just excited to get my hands on this grinder. I'm making do with a Sage Dose Control Pro and this will be a massive upgrade on that.


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> Oh I have no doubts they will deliver in August, I just got the impression that they were pretty much ready to be shipping these. The updates didn't really make it clear exactly what was happening and the last few updates about shipping addresses lead me to think we would be getting them in the next week or so after the address change cutoff. Looking back over the posts I was probably seeing what I wanted to but I am just excited to get my hands on this grinder. I'm making do with a Sage Dose Control Pro and this will be a massive upgrade on that.


The time will pass quickly....


----------



## jymbob

DavecUK said:


> The time will pass quickly....


In fact, depending on your timezone, it might already be August!


----------



## lake_m

Sounds like there may be some project creep but it's nothing in the grand scheme of things. Looking forward to testing it against the E92. There may be a difficult decision to make.


----------



## GingerBen

Can't wait to compare this with the Mythos - one thing for sure is that one will be up for sale at some point


----------



## Teejay

I've received every update except the last 34. I wonder if they decided to limit the distribution list Am I the only one that missed it?


----------



## DavecUK

Teejay said:


> I've received every update except the last 34. I wonder if they decided to limit the distribution list Am I the only one that missed it?


Did you go here for a year long sabbatical ?


----------



## Grahamg

I've not had an update by email for ages either, I'm assuming I missed something around the GDPR change and got removed. It's fairly obvious there's been one when this thread gets bumped anyway!


----------



## Inglorious Alf

My Vario has sold which does mean I'm grinderless for a few weeks but at least I'll beat the influx of second hand grinders once the Niche is shipped! Can't wait to give it a go...


----------



## Niche Coffee

Just to let you all know, we post our updates directly to Indiegogo and we can not control who receives an email notification about new updates.

If you don't want to miss out, we recommend checking the Indiegogo site once a week or follow us on Indiegogo (this will give you a notification).

To follow us, go to our page on Indiegogo and click the heart just below the funding total.

We wouldn't want anyone to miss out!


----------



## Teejay

No but I have been on a 3 week tour of Scotland with thankfully very little connection to the outside world!


----------



## tohenk2

I have had emails from Indigogo going in the Spam and Add folders. But the email with update nr. 34 arrived today at 12:08. Might be that the emails are now time released in small batches so they are not blocked as spam right away?


----------



## DavecUK

I just saw the latest update....getting quite excited now....not because I am waiting for one, been using one as my only grinder for ages, just how good they are is old news for me......I am excited to see the impact they will have when they reach consumers. How perhaps 500 or so people will never see a grinder in £500 to £1200 price range in quite the same way again. For those who got in very early, just how much value they will have got.

Excited to have been a very small part of it...as this is the whole reason I got into reviewing/testing/designing machines grinder and roasters.

I managed to write all that without using the word "game changer"


----------



## Kyle T

I dont know why so many people get worked up because of the updates showing parts arriving. Its great we are getting updates almost every day and considering Niche were upfront and honest about the original delay im sure they would have informed us if they were worried they wouldnt make the delivery dates now. As for emails regarding delivery address etc. Why not? Might as well get all of their ducks in a row whilst waiting for the parts to arrive so everything can me more streamlined for assembly/posting. I'm guessing they will have a team or at least 3-4 people assembling the grinders over the next few weeks and considering how easy it sounds to assemble I think all will be ok. Plus the DPD shipping is usually a next day delivery so even if they dont finish assembly until the last week of august they could still get them all out on time.

I like many am super keen and excited to get my hands on my new shiny Niche Zero but i also have zero doubts that they will deliver!


----------



## PPapa

Yeah, it also shows they do plan ahead - many could have left the delivery address question while they had to deal with assembly.

Doing it when you are less busy because you are waiting for the parts sounds like a good idea to me. Even if it hyped up few folk, including myself.

Can't wait to get it and compare it to E37S.


----------



## lake_m

Chances are if this rolls into September I'll be on holiday when it arrives. Hope DPD don't sling it in the wood shed like they normally do!!


----------



## Grahamg

Same here, changed it to work address just in case



lake_m said:


> Chances are if this rolls into September I'll be on holiday when it arrives. Hope DPD don't sling it in the wood shed like they normally do!!


----------



## Niche Coffee

In case any of you missed it -

This Saturday, we will be showcasing the Niche Zero and serving coffee samples at the local village show in Buriton. If you are local or would just like to come see the grinder in action (and possibly use), we would love to see you down there!

Details -

Buriton Village Show 12:30-4:30pm

Buriton Village Hall & Recreation Ground, 29 High St, Buriton, Petersfield, Hampshire GU31 5RX


----------



## thesmileyone

DavecUK said:


> I just saw the latest update....getting quite excited now....not because I am waiting for one, been using one as my only grinder for ages, just how good they are is old news for me......I am excited to see the impact they will have when they reach consumers. How perhaps 500 or so people will never see a grinder in £500 to £1200 price range in quite the same way again. For those who got in very early, just how much value they will have got.
> 
> Excited to have been a very small part of it...as this is the whole reason I got into reviewing/testing/designing machines grinder and roasters.
> 
> I managed to write all that without using the word "game changer"


True but... sometimes the peace of mind that all bugs and kinks have been ironed out can outweigh the financial saving by jumping into a product that isn't even in beta testing stage(?). Personally I would rather pay even 2x the KS price when it is full retail and has had a few revisions.

This is why I never buy the latest phone or upgrade to the latest OS.


----------



## 4085

thesmileyone said:


> True but... sometimes the peace of mind that all bugs and kinks have been ironed out can outweigh the financial saving by jumping into a product that isn't even in beta testing stage(?). Personally I would rather pay even 2x the KS price when it is full retail and has had a few revisions.
> 
> This is why I never buy the latest phone or upgrade to the latest OS.


You have obviously read through this thread then.....they are not launching a prototype.....they are launching a grinder that has been tested and modified over 2/3 years......but you are probably right to be cautious as you will never own one.....


----------



## Jony

ohhhh:whistle:


----------



## DavecUK

thesmileyone said:


> True but... sometimes the peace of mind that all bugs and kinks have been ironed out can outweigh the financial saving by jumping into a product that isn't even in beta testing stage(?). Personally I would rather pay even 2x the KS price when it is full retail and has had a few revisions.
> 
> This is why I never buy the latest phone or upgrade to the latest OS.


We live in a world where social media is so important for people when in forming views of a product but can be biased, unreliable or misleading. I don't blame you for being cautious but caution should always be tempered with a healthy dose of research, knowledge and reality as well. Otherwise you may find yourself believing something that is incorrect, as easily as the next person, despite the caution. People often 100% believe advertising/marketing (the more the companies spend the more they believe it) and make decisions based purely on this, soft music and flashy videos. I am equally baffled by the fanboy phenomenon, people hold a set of beliefs in products that actually defy all logical reality. Apple, BMW, Bratza and hundreds of other brands all seem to have managed this somehow. No one can argue with your view, because it's yours and it's clearly the rule you live your life by but you don't want to be so careful that you miss, or discount, important information.

You obviously felt it was important to post and share your views with others interested in the grinder, state clearly why you wouldn't buy it yet and give your reasons. I am sure you did this in the hope that others would think before making some horrible mistake and get a substandard product that had not been tested at all, would be full of bugs and kinks and is going to be subject to more than one non cosmetic revision. I am not disagreeing with your personal belief but it would be a strange world if we all felt the same way....because new products would never get off the ground.

*Your right about it not being in Beta, it's already been there done that...it's now in production*. It's been through extensive testing, had it's revisions and problems, just so the consumer won't be the beta tester. I am an experienced reviewer/tester and simply gave all the facts and information I could to help people make a decision. I don't believe you will have seen anything quite like it for any other grinder prior to launch. So far it has not had any of the usual problems that have plagued many new launch grinders in the last decade. e.g. Moving adjusters, requirement for shims, stalling out on light roasts, drive gear stripping, electronics failing, bits falling off, damaged adjustment threads, difficulty cleaning.

I did feel it was important to share the other side of the coin..


----------



## thesmileyone

dfk41 said:


> You have obviously read through this thread then.....they are not launching a prototype.....they are launching a grinder that has been tested and modified over 2/3 years......but you are probably right to be cautious as you will never own one.....


Pffft dfk, put your handbag away will you.



DavecUK said:


> We live in a world where social media is so important for people when in forming views of a product but can be biased, unreliable or misleading. I don't blame you for being cautious but caution should always be tempered with a healthy dose of research, knowledge and reality as well. Otherwise you may find yourself believing something that is incorrect, as easily as the next person, despite the caution. People often 100% believe advertising/marketing (the more the companies spend the more they believe it) and make decisions based purely on this, soft music and flashy videos. I am equally baffled by the fanboy phenomenon, people hold a set of beliefs in products that actually defy all logical reality. Apple, BMW, Bratza and hundreds of other brands all seem to have managed this somehow. No one can argue with your view, because it's yours and it's clearly the rule you live your life by but you don't want to be so careful that you miss, or discount, important information.
> 
> You obviously felt it was important to post and share your views with others interested in the grinder, state clearly why you wouldn't buy it yet and give your reasons. I am sure you did this in the hope that others would think before making some horrible mistake and get a substandard product that had not been tested at all, would be full of bugs and kinks and is going to be subject to more than one non cosmetic revision. I am not disagreeing with your personal belief but it would be a strange world if we all felt the same way....because new products would never get off the ground.
> 
> *Your right about it not being in Beta, it's already been there done that...it's now in production*. It's been through extensive testing, had it's revisions and problems, just so the consumer won't be the beta tester. I am an experienced reviewer/tester and simply gave all the facts and information I could to help people make a decision. I don't believe you will have seen anything quite like it for any other grinder prior to launch. So far it has not had any of the usual problems that have plagued many new launch grinders in the last decade. e.g. Moving adjusters, requirement for shims, stalling out on light roasts, drive gear stripping, electronics failing, bits falling off, damaged adjustment threads, difficulty cleaning.
> 
> I did feel it was important to share the other side of the coin..


Yeah and I am sure you know, that even after products are released, bugs appear, revisions are made, ones that don't get spotted in beta testing and ones that are caused by mass manufacturing vs the normally perfect-prototyped models which are then sent to beta testers.

Not sure what your reference to fanboyism is about, (there seems to be some of that about the Niche already and none of the customers even have one yet) if it is directed at me then.... I don't know what to say as I hold no affinity to any brand, and I live by a certain set of rules which whilst somewhat annoying and maybe boring, avoid the kind of problems and disappointments that I refer to. Namely not buying a product until it has been out a while, and namely not buying the latest versions. For example the iPhone X is out now, which is the iPhone 10. I own an iPhone 5. I can afford to purchase 10 X's but...it goes against my rules. As a result of owning a 5, I cannot use Tinder, so I don't get to partake in Netflix and chill which is a large disappointment for a perpetually single male. Do you see what I mean now? I don't even use my facebook account, it only exists for groups.

It is 80% likely I will be purchasing a Niche Grinder. When it has been out a while. When bugs have been revised. It is naive to say this will never happen; it happens a lot in mass marketed situations, every day you hear about product recalls in the news, it just cannot be helped and if it is your only grinder then that is some significant downtime. I am sure whoever beta tested Tesco's slow cooker had great results but it didn't stop all of them being recalled for possible risk of electrocuting their customers...a product with much less complexity and sharp spinning parts than a coffee grinder. I am happy with my current grinder however it clumps and retains a lot of coffee per use and the Niche will obliterate this if your findings, and the clever marketing you refer to is correct.

I am glad to hear it is finally in production, I am looking forward to the imminent reviews and videos.


----------



## PaulL

I understand your comments and caution and yes we either are or should be like that with any product launches. Software-based products are notorious, engineered-based products can take time to reveal issues etc. In my case I know Dave and when he enthuses about something I take notice, I know he likes engineering and design efficiency and despises the marketing-led compromises we consumers are fobbed off with. I read his review and I saw the grinder briefly in action at his. Then he kindly brought it round to mine where it made more sense in my kitchen with ambient noise I am familiar with, coffee routine etc. I posted about it back around page 90. I had already taken the plunge signing up very early but this was the hands-on which gave an assurance impossible to get in a virtual world save for the reputation of those commenting positively.

So, you could probably have seen one in action if you wanted to and can also make a personal conclusion of the design, materials and component choices compared with what is out there today but if you are waiting to see how it fares after a year or two in the field then fair enough, no argument from me with that.


----------



## MildredM

I expect some peoples' sets of rules differ to others'. Facts usually trump heresay and 'what ifs' though.


----------



## Mrboots2u

MildredM said:


> I expect some peoples' sets of rules differ to others'. Facts usually trump heresay and 'what ifs' though.


I dont see Trump and facts in a sentence very often these days.


----------



## Kilo

Mrboots2u said:


> I dont see Trump and facts in a sentence very often these days.


in "alternative facts"


----------



## Teejay

thesmileyone said:


> Pffft dfk, put your handbag away will you.
> 
> Yeah and I am sure you know, that even after products are released, bugs appear, revisions are made, ones that don't get spotted in beta testing and ones that are caused by mass manufacturing vs the normally perfect-prototyped models which are then sent to beta testers.
> 
> Not sure what your reference to fanboyism is about, (there seems to be some of that about the Niche already and none of the customers even have one yet) if it is directed at me then.... I don't know what to say as I hold no affinity to any brand, and I live by a certain set of rules which whilst somewhat annoying and maybe boring, avoid the kind of problems and disappointments that I refer to. Namely not buying a product until it has been out a while, and namely not buying the latest versions. For example the iPhone X is out now, which is the iPhone 10. I own an iPhone 5. I can afford to purchase 10 X's but...it goes against my rules. As a result of owning a 5, I cannot use Tinder, so I don't get to partake in Netflix and chill which is a large disappointment for a perpetually single male. Do you see what I mean now? I don't even use my facebook account, it only exists for groups.
> 
> It is 80% likely I will be purchasing a Niche Grinder. When it has been out a while. When bugs have been revised. It is naive to say this will never happen; it happens a lot in mass marketed situations, every day you hear about product recalls in the news, it just cannot be helped and if it is your only grinder then that is some significant downtime. I am sure whoever beta tested Tesco's slow cooker had great results but it didn't stop all of them being recalled for possible risk of electrocuting their customers...a product with much less complexity and sharp spinning parts than a coffee grinder. I am happy with my current grinder however it clumps and retains a lot of coffee per use and the Niche will obliterate this if your findings, and the clever marketing you refer to is correct.
> 
> I am glad to hear it is finally in production, I am looking forward to the imminent reviews and videos.


I've have no connection with Niche either but I would like to stop having to make coffee with a hand grinder three times a day!

There is a counter argument about not buying early. Some products in the early stages are over engineered to provide the success for the company and the product. So buying later in the products lifecycle after its been established also has potential risks when the product is redesigned with cheaper/inferior materials. The happens all too often In the motor industry.

This is the first item I have ever backed without having something off the shelf. I felt that from what I've read and seen that this will indeed be a success and I'm glad I'm on the train.

Message ends.,


----------



## 7493

This is the first product I've ever backed too. I have every confidence that it will be fine and if there need to be revisions Niche will look after us.


----------



## thesmileyone

I do have two questions about the Niche actually.

Is the Zero going to be the only model?

Will there be a larger Zero with larger burrs in the future?

Thanks.


----------



## PaulL

Just received via email:


*Update 36*

IMPORTANT

Good news! We have now received all of the parts needed for the Niche Zero and we have begun building your grinders. We will keep you updated on the progress of our build over the coming weeks.

Unfortunately, one part we have received (the grind cup) is not up to the quality that we know our customers deserve. Although we would love to send the finished grinders out now, we want to give you the best product possible. Our suppliers estimate it will be the end of August before they can air freight the new grind cups.

So currently we are building up the grinders and storing them in our warehouse. We can assure you we are desperate to send you your grinders but quality is our number one focus at Niche. As soon as we have this final part, we will be able to send you your grinders.

We apologise for any inconvenience but we want you to receive the best product possible and we will not compromise on this.

Thank you for your patience and understanding.


----------



## UncleJake

Well. But for a cup.

Personally I'd rather pay the extra postage to receive my cup later if necessary.. But I understand their perspective. Better to send out something you're proud of than an almost finished product.


----------



## lake_m

lake_m said:


> Chances are if this rolls into September I'll be on holiday when it arrives. Hope DPD don't sling it in the wood shed like they normally do!!


Doh!!


----------



## Kyle T

UncleJake said:


> Well. But for a cup.
> 
> Personally I'd rather pay the extra postage to receive my cup later if necessary.. But I understand their perspective. Better to send out something you're proud of than an almost finished product.


Yeah I thought exactly the same thing. I'd rather pay additional postage and receive the cup once it's ready if I could have the grinder sooner. This is the first time I've been ever so slightly annoyed by an update. I suppose the best thing to take away from this though is that the grinders are close to being finished.


----------



## GingerBen

Argh frustrating but so be it. I'd be doing the same if I were them. September it is then


----------



## lake_m

I'd happily pay the additional postage and get the cup later. I have a few of different sizes already.


----------



## Beeroclock

PaulL said:


> Just received via email:
> 
> 
> *Update 36*
> 
> IMPORTANT
> 
> Good news! We have now received all of the parts needed for the Niche Zero and we have begun building your grinders. We will keep you updated on the progress of our build over the coming weeks.
> 
> Unfortunately, one part we have received (the grind cup) is not up to the quality that we know our customers deserve. Although we would love to send the finished grinders out now, we want to give you the best product possible. Our suppliers estimate it will be the end of August before they can air freight the new grind cups.
> 
> So currently we are building up the grinders and storing them in our warehouse. We can assure you we are desperate to send you your grinders but quality is our number one focus at Niche. As soon as we have this final part, we will be able to send you your grinders.
> 
> We apologise for any inconvenience but we want you to receive the best product possible and we will not compromise on this.
> 
> Thank you for your patience and understanding.


Thanks ranks with "my dog ate the build instructions"


----------



## Mrboots2u

Beeroclock said:


> Thanks ranks with "my dog ate the build instructions"


Im sure you can wait a few weeks longer.


----------



## MildredM

I think it's great they have been so transparent and genuinely want to send it out with everything as good as they possibly can!


----------



## Beeroclock

Mrboots2u said:


> Im sure you can wait a few weeks longer.


I'm sure I can too - after all it's been nearly a year







something tells me this may end up taking a little longer than 2 weeks.


----------



## mctrials23

Same here, I would rather pay another £5 for postage so I could have the grinder ASAP. I understand why they are doing this though. Its a bit of a faff to try and find out which people want to wait, which don't and then collect money again and do two lots of postage. Its a fair bit of extra work and it would be easy to make some mistakes.

On the plus side, its not an actual grinder component holding it up so hopefully it will just be a case of popping the new cup in with the grinder and sending them out once the replacements arrive.


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> Same here, I would rather pay another £5 for postage so I could have the grinder ASAP. I understand why they are doing this though. Its a bit of a faff to try and find out which people want to wait, which don't and then collect money again and do two lots of postage. Its a fair bit of extra work and it would be easy to make some mistakes.


I went to the Buriton Village Show on Saturday. I thought it's a nice day so I set off down the A3 and through the back entrance to the recreation ground (that's apparently where the smart money parked) a Nice lady who gave me directions. She said "oh don't go up that way you'll never get parked and have a long walk....my goodness she was right. I initially thought, wow this is a terrible route, but down a small track, through a gate that was open and I am in the field, loads of parking (because only 10 cars used that area for parking and just 100 yards to walk). The hog roast caught fire but unfortunately I didn't get there in time to see that or we would have video.









Met a nice chap at the Niche stand who was one of the very early backers, plonked a bag of my coffee down...just in case....and that's when I heard the news about the grind cup. Niche had just found out but as @UncleJake says, it's about getting it all absolutely right....a slightly old school view nowadays perhaps. Having used the Niche for over a year now, the grind cup is an integral part of the system. It fits the portafilter exactly, ensures any last residues of static are gone and keeps all the grinds where they should be...in the cup and not on the counter. My technique is to grind into the cup....I then use a chopstick (after the 1 bean at a time testing as per @dsc experiment request) to mix the coffee with a bit of a stir. I place the portafilter upside down on top of the cup and then invert it all so the grounds all fall into the portafilter and then give it a left and right shake for a bit (as if its a cocktail) to make sure it all lies flat....then tamp. I did try dosing into a portafilter directly, even with one of my rings and it wasn't something I ever felt the need (or wanted to try) to do again. The cup sits at the front of the grinder, much like the "mascot" on the bonnet of a car...it needs to look good.

I would imagine it's been enough of a ball-ache to box every grinder they have already built and are building, move them into a storage location and then open them up again to put a grind cup in so they can dispatch. Can you imagine the additional work of trying to ship some, not others, raise extra postage charges, get little boxes and packaging just for the cups.... *I saw it as 2 bits of good news:*



*
1. They have already been building them and can continue to build them whilst waiting for the cup (minimal impact).*

*
2. Reassuringly, they are not willing to compromise on quality just to get the grinders out.*


----------



## PPapa

lake_m said:


> I'd happily pay the additional postage and get the cup later. I have a few of different sizes already.


Except that someone would have to manage hundreds of requests/payments/shipments. It would be a nightmare.

Can't blame Niche for this choice, really.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

well I am hoping for some good build updates with photos etc..so not all bad news. I am an early backer but it would be good to know how many grinders are built tested and awaiting their grinding cups. I suspect pretty much everyone who has backed this will get their grinders in September.


----------



## PineappleMonkey

MildredM said:


> I think it's great they have been so transparent and genuinely want to send it out with everything as good as they possibly can!


Absolutely 110% THIS! We all wanted transparency when backing this and they have gone over and beyond what others have done in my personal experience. I am happy to wait for mine to be shipped.


----------



## mctrials23

How many of you guys that have backed the Niche have good grinders to use at the moment and how many of you are looking at a massive upgrade when you receive the Niche. Thats the main reason I am keen to get my hands on this ASAP. My current grinder isn't very good.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

mctrials23 said:


> How many of you guys that have backed the Niche have good grinders to use at the moment and how many of you are looking at a massive upgrade when you receive the Niche. Thats the main reason I am keen to get my hands on this ASAP. My current grinder isn't very good.


You'll find that a lot of the forum members who went for the Niche, specially at the super early bird stage, already have good coffee gear, to the point that all we want is a great kitchen friendly domestic grinder designed as such from the ground up, and not looking necessarily for a massive upgrade taste-wise.


----------



## Dayks

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You'll find that a lot of the forum members who went for the Niche, specially at the super early bird stage, already have good coffee gear, to the point that all we want is a great kitchen friendly domestic grinder designed as such from the ground up, and not looking necessarily for a massive upgrade taste-wise.


Yeah that is my situation, I have a 68mm conical grinder, so if anything this should be a slight downgrade but if the ease of use is as good as reported I'm more than happy with the trade off.


----------



## PPapa

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You'll find that a lot of the forum members who went for the Niche, specially at the super early bird stage, already have good coffee gear, to the point that all we want is a great kitchen friendly domestic grinder designed as such from the ground up, and not looking necessarily for a massive upgrade taste-wise.


Or some people just want to give a single dose grinder another go without splurging for EK43, Eg-one or Ceado E37Z!

I have E37S and there have been days where I drink a cup or two a day. I sometimes feel like it's causing more issues than it solves as I don't like wasting coffee. I have used Feldgrind and Santos 4 for espresso and quite liked the workflow, but not so much the results.


----------



## Stevebee

Dayks said:


> Yeah that is my situation, I have a 68mm conical grinder, so if anything this should be a slight downgrade but if the ease of use is as good as reported I'm more than happy with the trade off.


Same here - 68mm conical and 83mm flat - but this will be more suited for a kitchen, single dosing and switching between beans with less waste. So for me a few more weeks is not an issue.


----------



## Inglorious Alf

mctrials23 said:


> How many of you guys that have backed the Niche have good grinders to use at the moment and how many of you are looking at a massive upgrade when you receive the Niche. Thats the main reason I am keen to get my hands on this ASAP. My current grinder isn't very good.


It's a definite upgrade for me, from my aging Baratza Vario. Can't wait!


----------



## LukeT

mctrials23 said:


> How many of you guys that have backed the Niche have good grinders to use at the moment and how many of you are looking at a massive upgrade when you receive the Niche. Thats the main reason I am keen to get my hands on this ASAP. My current grinder isn't very good.


I have a Mignon I bought 2nd hand so am thinking it should be a considerable upgrade in quality but the convenience (and complete avoidance of stale grounds) of single dosing I suspect will make enough of a difference on its own. Plus if I sell the Mignon I don't think I'll have lost much on it.

My only earth-shattering concern is I may have ordered the wrong colour.


----------



## mctrials23

I was just re-reading the latest update on indiegogo and it had me wondering how suppliers end up sending sub-par components out to a buyer. It sounds like all of the cups are not up to scratch so why bother sending them out. Do they simply hope that the buyer will not notice or care? Do they have 0 quality control? It must cost them a lot of money to ship the components, pay to have them returned, ship again and then re-make them properly. Basically it just sounds like it would cost the supplier a lot of money.


----------



## J_Fo

mctrials23 said:


> How many of you guys that have backed the Niche have good grinders to use at the moment and how many of you are looking at a massive upgrade when you receive the Niche. Thats the main reason I am keen to get my hands on this ASAP. My current grinder isn't very good.


I have an Ascaso I steel which I know doesn't have the best rep but aside from it making a bit of a mess whenever I use it, it's served me and my Gaggia Classic well for the price...

But the Niche will definitely be a massive upgrade and I can't wait to get my hands on it!!


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> I was just re-reading the latest update on indiegogo and it had me wondering how suppliers end up sending sub-par components out to a buyer. It sounds like all of the cups are not up to scratch so why bother sending them out. Do they simply hope that the buyer will not notice or care? Do they have 0 quality control? It must cost them a lot of money to ship the components, pay to have them returned, ship again and then re-make them properly. Basically it just sounds like it would cost the supplier a lot of money.


I went to the Buriton show and met an early backer called Mike (we had an interesting chat)...it was there I heard them explaining to him in more detail what had happened .. My understanding is that it didn't quite happen the way you believe it did. I suspect the communication was succinct because the majority of backers only want to know the impact and when they are likely to receive their grinder. I think suppliers quality control processes, the technicalities of steel forming plus any issues that can arise and the way a supplier might inform Niche of an obvious problem, are not something most people would be interested in?

P.S. But you are right, it will have cost the supplier of that component money...which is why suppliers try really hard to get things perfect!


----------



## rdpx

DavecUK said:


> I think suppliers quality control processes, the technicalities of steel forming plus any issues that can arise and the way a supplier might inform Niche of an obvious problem, are not something most people would be interested in?


I'm willing to hazard the guess that most people on here who are signed up would love to hear the full boring story. I mean most of us backed the project on the strength of reading a 17 page review, so I think it's safe to say we are not afraid of excruciating detail!

Please do tell...


----------



## Inglorious Alf

LukeT said:


> I have a Mignon I bought 2nd hand so am thinking it should be a considerable upgrade in quality but the convenience (and complete avoidance of stale grounds) of single dosing I suspect will make enough of a difference on its own. Plus if I sell the Mignon I don't think I'll have lost much on it.
> 
> My only earth-shattering concern is I may have ordered the wrong colour.


So what colour did you go for then?! It seems black has been the more popular option on Indiegogo.


----------



## liting

Rakesh said:


> Anybody seen this grinder due to come out? https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/codes it's advertised on the forum and looks quite different to say the least. It's selling point appears to be zero retention and seems like a grinder built for single dosing (Doesn't have a real hopper?). With 63mm stainless steel conics at an angle running at 330 rpm, what do you guys think? Anyone want to speculate on price?


Nice grinder! Thanks for sharing!

My new IT Blog: https://diceus.com/what-is-onsite-offshore-model/


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## Dormouse

Mrboots2u said:


> Im sure you can wait a few weeks longer.


Though getting it wrong first time is no guarantee of getting it right second time.


----------



## mctrials23

I assume there will come a point (at least I hope) that they have to bit the bullet and send out the grinders sans grinds cup if there are continued issues with the part.


----------



## MalcolmH

mctrials23 said:


> How many of you guys that have backed the Niche have good grinders to use at the moment and how many of you are looking at a massive upgrade when you receive the Niche. Thats the main reason I am keen to get my hands on this ASAP. My current grinder isn't very good.


I have an ok grinder at the moment. It does a good job with darker roasts. I joined a subscription where the preference seems to be for lighter roasts. I really struggle with these. I get sour in the most part. Im hoping, expecting, that the Niche will show me how good these lighter roasts are. If not my sub may well be up for grabs


----------



## Mrboots2u

MalcolmH said:


> I have an ok grinder at the moment. It does a good job with darker roasts. I joined a subscription where the preference seems to be for lighter roasts. I really struggle with these. I get sour in the most part. Im hoping, expecting, that the Niche will show me how good these lighter roasts are. If not my sub may well be up for grabs


What grinder do you currently have. More often than not sourness is a fi croon of brewing not grinder.


----------



## MWJB

MalcolmH said:


> I have an ok grinder at the moment. It does a good job with darker roasts. I joined a subscription where the preference seems to be for lighter roasts. I really struggle with these. I get sour in the most part. Im hoping, expecting, that the Niche will show me how good these lighter roasts are. If not my sub may well be up for grabs


Don't rely on a/the grinder to sort this for you. You don't need any particular grinder (as long as it goes fine enough) to get a tasty shot with lighter roasts...if you're aiming to do something a little off the beaten track, than maybe you need something a little more specific to that task.

Adjust your brewing parameters instead. You opted for a change in roast so you are expecting something different, that's what you are going to get.

So, in the first instance I'd try brewing to a longer ratio, say 1:3 or 1:4, then see if you can go finer to shorten the brew ratio & avoid unpleasant tartness/sharpness. Darker roasts don't always extract a whole lot different, but generally are less unpleasantly sour when under-extracted, some are even nice under-extracted.


----------



## LukeT

Inglorious Alf said:


> So what colour did you go for then?! It seems black has been the more popular option on Indiegogo.


White (or is it cream?). If I remember correctly the black became available later. Not that I'm complaining - I think both look very nice and could equally well choose either now, I just don't know which will go better in the eyes of management with our new kitchen, that doesn't exist yet, and I've enough to deal with on that score without adding the colour of a coffee grinder into the debate!

Maybe I'll pop up on here in a month looking for a swap...


----------



## MalcolmH

MWJB said:


> Don't rely on a/the grinder to sort this for you. You don't need any particular grinder (as long as it goes fine enough) to get a tasty shot with lighter roasts...if you're aiming to do something a little off the beaten track, than maybe you need something a little more specific to that task.
> 
> Adjust your brewing parameters instead. You opted for a change in roast so you are expecting something different, that's what you are going to get.
> 
> So, in the first instance I'd try brewing to a longer ratio, say 1:3 or 1:4, then see if you can go finer to shorten the brew ratio & avoid unpleasant tartness/sharpness. Darker roasts don't always extract a whole lot different, but generally are less unpleasantly sour when under-extracted, some are even nice under-extracted.


Thanks for your comments MrBoots and MWJB. Where to start! I have a K3 which Im happy with, always expected Id be on an upgrade path at some stage and when the Niche came along it would be silly not to go for that. Ha Ha, didn't want to mention the grinder as it may be up for sale shortly, but I'll probably give it away.

Ive tried all sorts with these lighter roasts as MWJB suggests. I can grind fine enough for around the 26s extraction. I have an IMS 15g basket. Blind Basket. I aim for 35g 40g out. As another chap mentioned on the 'What the Postie bought thread' I get through a lot of the 250g bag faffing about. I hate the sourness, I dont get it (I drink Espresso in the most part btw, its ok in a flat white). On a couple of occasions I felt the need to write to the subscriber to ask advice (D&H btw, excellent and prob only 50% of what they offer has been problematic, its not all bad).

I do only have an HX m/c. Its an ECM Mechanica and Im happy with it. I have used an eric type thermometer to check temperature and cooling flush etc so that should be ok.

So, in a nutshell. I have read, watched and tried loads. Ive read about consistency of grind and perhaps the Niche will do a better job than the K3. Ive read so many times to get as good a quality grinder as you can afford so think the grinder does have some bearing on the result, why do some people spend thousands if a K3 for £150 would do the job.

Sorry never meant to hijack the thread, just felt an answer was appropriate. Once the Niche arrives I will report back and maybe ask fro more advice.

Also probably worth saying that I do occasionally try these lighter roasts as a V60 filter and get good results. I use a Aergrind for that


----------



## MWJB

MalcolmH said:


> Ive tried all sorts with these lighter roasts as MWJB suggests. I can grind fine enough for around the 26s extraction. I have an IMS 15g basket. Blind Basket. I aim for 35g 40g out. As another chap mentioned on the 'What the Postie bought thread' I get through a lot of the 250g bag faffing about. I hate the sourness, I dont get it (I drink Espresso in the most part btw, its ok in a flat white). On a couple of occasions I felt the need to write to the subscriber to ask advice (D&H btw, excellent and prob only 50% of what they offer has been problematic, its not all bad).
> 
> I do only have an HX m/c. Its an ECM Mechanica and Im happy with it. I have used an eric type thermometer to check temperature and cooling flush etc so that should be ok.
> 
> Sorry never meant to hijack the thread, just felt an answer was appropriate. Once the Niche arrives I will report back and maybe ask fro more advice.
> 
> Also probably worth saying that I do occasionally try these lighter roasts as a V60 filter and get good results. I use a Aergrind for that


OK, start another thread on this. Saying you have tried "all sorts" doesn't tell us what you have done, or your dial in process (we need to know shot, by shot).


----------



## ashcroc

LukeT said:


> White (or is it cream?). If I remember correctly the black became available later. Not that I'm complaining - I think both look very nice and could equally well choose either now, I just don't know which will go better in the eyes of management with our new kitchen, that doesn't exist yet, and I've enough to deal with on that score without adding the colour of a coffee grinder into the debate!
> 
> Maybe I'll pop up on here in a month looking for a swap...


Worst case you can probably get it powder coated just about any colour under the sun once you have it.


----------



## slamm

Hello whats this on the Niche stand at the Buriton village show?! A special edition or a one off? Looks very smart.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BmaO5NkjK7r/

@Niche Coffee - care to spill the beans?


----------



## Gatty

Darker wood trim also by the looks of things!


----------



## ashcroc

Gatty said:


> Darker wood trim also by the looks of things!


Can't really see it well on my phone but could've sworn it looks like r2d2!


----------



## LukeT

ashcroc said:


> Worst case you can probably get it powder coated just about any colour under the sun once you have it.


That did cross my mind.....


----------



## DavecUK

ashcroc said:


> Worst case you can probably get it powder coated just about any colour under the sun once you have it.


So if you have a black one you can get it powder coated white and vice versa


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> So if you have a black one you can get it powder coated white and vice versa


Was thinking glittery pink to please his other half.


----------



## LukeT

ashcroc said:


> Was thinking glittery pink to please his other half.


Many times I have found myself in trouble for failing to read her mind but in this case I feel confident in suggesting that wouldn't be her colour of choice!

[starts planning "my new coffee corner" photo/thread...]


----------



## adz313

@DavecUK - as a non-backer, but potential future customer, interested to know how easy it would be to change out the wooden parts of the Grinder?

Are they just screwed in? (their Indiegogo page suggests as much from pictures) - visually I'm struggling to get past them (which, along with disposable cash at the moment, is the reason I've not backed).


----------



## slamm

Gatty said:


> Darker wood trim also by the looks of things!


They seem to have been running them without lids on too which is a bit surprising as I thought it was needed to deal with pop corning. Either its not such a problem or they just left them off for convenience, not worried if a few beans spin off being outside.

Notice the large plank of wood used as the bench, they seem to have a good supply of oak if thats what it is. Maybe they had a large tree come down and its the same source they use for the oak pieces on the grinder. If so perhaps the darker wood on the Union Jack special is also oak with a darker staining. Darker wood looks like a nice option for darker colours.


----------



## DavecUK

adz313 said:


> @DavecUK - as a non-backer, but potential future customer, interested to know how easy it would be to change out the wooden parts of the Grinder?
> 
> Are they just screwed in? (their Indiegogo page suggests as much from pictures) - visually I'm struggling to get past them (which, along with disposable cash at the moment, is the reason I've not backed).


I wouln't think it was very easy, they are simply screwed into place, but the shapes are complex and not easy to make at home unless you have the right equipment. My suggestion would be to Initially squint a bit when using the grinder so you don't notice them so much....then after a week or so open your eyes fully because you will have realised the grind quality is so good, it doesn't bother you any more.











slamm said:


> They seem to have been running them without lids on too which is a bit surprising as I thought it was needed to deal with pop corning. Either its not such a problem or they just left them off for convenience, not worried if a few beans spin off being outside. Notice the large plank of wood used as the bench, they seem to have a good supply of oak if thats what it is. Maybe they had a large tree come down and its the same source they use for the oak pieces on the grinder. If so perhaps the darker wood on the Union Jack special is also oak with a darker staining.


Where did you get that from, it's possible and I did defeat the safety device for some testing, but it's a bad idea when grinding coffee for real as a few beans can jump about near the end of the grind. Plus you might poke your fingers in really hard and get them injured.


----------



## MWJB

slamm said:


> They seem to have been running them without lids on too which is a bit surprising as I thought it was needed to deal with pop corning. Either its not such a problem or they just left them off for convenience, not worried if a few beans spin off being outside.
> 
> Notice the large plank of wood used as the bench, they seem to have a good supply of oak if thats what it is. Maybe they had a large tree come down and its the same source they use for the oak pieces on the grinder. If so perhaps the darker wood on the Union Jack special is also oak with a darker staining. Darker wood looks like a nice option for darker colours.


They look like the have the lids on to me. There's a safety cut-out that stops the grinder from working whilst the lid is up.


----------



## DavecUK

People are modifying it already and they have not got them yet, in some cases planning their modifications before purchase....It's an odd world for sure.


----------



## Dylan

Wooden bits could be removed, sanded and painted if that's what floats your boat.


----------



## slamm

DavecUK said:


> Where did you get that from, it's possible and I did defeat the safety device for some testing, but it's a bad idea when grinding coffee for real as a few beans can jump about near the end of the grind. Plus you might poke your fingers in really hard and get them injured.


Ah, in that case I'm sure you're right they wouldn't have been running them like that. Well you were there anyway so I'm sure you would have spotted that!







I could be wrong of course but looking at the blurry photo again they still look like they dont have the lids on to me.. if so maybe the photo was taken early on when they were setting up and and they just hadnt put the lids on, perhaps they are separate in the packaging. But in use you must be right, dont want to go defeating safety interlocks!


----------



## jlarkin

slamm said:


> I could be wrong of course but looking at the blurry photo again they still look like they dont have the lids on to me.. if so maybe the photo was taken early on when they were setting up and and they just hadnt put the lids on, perhaps they are separate in the packaging. But in use you must be right, dont want to go defeating safety interlocks!


I think you're just seeing things (well or I suppose not seeing things). They don't need to take the lids on and off to move them around. I feel like I can see the lids but it's so blurry it's pretty hard to be sure.


----------



## DavecUK

slamm said:


> Ah, in that case I'm sure you're right they wouldn't have been running them like that. Well you were there anyway so I'm sure you would have spotted that!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I could be wrong of course but looking at the blurry photo again they still look like they dont have the lids on to me.. if so maybe the photo was taken early on when they were setting up and and they just hadnt put the lids on, perhaps they are separate in the packaging. But in use you must be right, dont want to go defeating safety interlocks!


*Oh, your talking about that photo*...yes I was there and of course the lids were on. You can tell easily from the photo. That white line down the front at the top just above the badge, is the channel that holds the non magnetic bit of the magnetic catch, (as the light catches it). It's in the lid, which is clearly on and down.









The actual source of wonderment for me is James (right) hair....







, mine is no longer so plentiful...


----------



## mctrials23

DavecUK said:


> The actual source of wonderment for me is James (right) hair....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , mine is no longer so plentiful...


You should always be suspicious of people who do things like that to their hair. They are either a yoof and doing it for fashion or they are trying to hide something....


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> You should always be suspicious of people who do things like that to their hair. They are either a yoof and doing it for fashion or they are trying to hide something....


I'm taller and couldn't hep but check it out...hiding nothing except thick luxuriant growth that Wayne Rooney attempted to buy with his millions.


----------



## slamm

DavecUK said:


> *Oh, your talking about that photo*...yes I was there and of course the lids were on. You can tell easily from the photo. That white line down the front at the top just above the badge, is the channel that holds the non magnetic bit of the non magnetic catch, (as the light catches it). It's in the lid, which is clearly on and down.


I stand corrected, thanks for clearing that up Dave.







In which case perhaps I should be congratulating them on the transparency of their plastic lid instead.. clearly very high optical quality because I still cant see them apart from those bits at the front! (foiled by the shade I suppose and lack of reflections)

Btw as you were there I don't know if you can shed some light on the one on the right? If it isnt a one off they will announce it at some stage so if there is no comment from Niche here or from yourself I guess that will be a clue.



DavecUK said:


> The actual source of wonderment for me is James (right) hair....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> , mine is no longer so plentiful...


Yes well, what can I say.. also not jealous at all!


----------



## Banjoman

The guy on the right definitely has a receding hairline. My guess is he's practising a combover for a few years' time. (I'm sure Bobby Charlton looked a bit like that in his (very) early twenties.)


----------



## Gatty

New indiegogo update this morning with pictures of the build in progress - the white model is looking stunning - I'm having the mildest case of jealousy!


----------



## mctrials23

Yeah, I just saw the picture of the white and wondered if I made the wrong call to get it in black. God damn it!

I'm sure they will both look great. The red contrasts really nicely with the white and the clean markings on the top casing look great. Roll on the end of the month!


----------



## slamm

Same here - every time I see a nice shot of a black one I wonder if I made the right choice sticking with the white, so its nice to see the white looking so good in these latest shots.

The overall level of finish and detailing looks impressive, so important to get this right - the badge, numbering, red blobby bit and powder coat finish all look great. Its these fine details that will create an impression of quality and desirability and these shots look very promising.


----------



## jonnycooper29

Finally backed it!! I only wish I had got on board months ago so I don't have to wait until October!


----------



## Inglorious Alf

When's the cut off for delivery? I backed it about a month ago and was hoping for a September delivery, but yours is due in October?


----------



## richwade80

slamm said:


> The overall level of finish and detailing looks impressive, so important to get this right - the badge, numbering, red blobby bit...


Anyone else noticed the introduction of the red blob, and a calibration mark on the dial? Curious about the calibration mark at least.

Images from niche website vs latest update below.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

mctrials23 said:


> Yeah, I just saw the picture of the white and wondered if I made the wrong call to get it in black. God damn it!
> 
> I'm sure they will both look great. The red contrasts really nicely with the white and the clean markings on the top casing look great. Roll on the end of the month!


Haha! Same here. I got it in black... since then we moved house which has cream tiles and cabinets... Oh well, such is life.


----------



## jonnycooper29

Well this is always nice to hear!


----------



## DavecUK

jonnycooper29 said:


> Well this is always nice to hear!


Looks like they are simply handing people keys they had in their pocket that work on all the doors that say no.....



> Anyone else noticed the introduction of the red blob, and a calibration mark on the dial? Curious about the calibration mark at least.


The "red blob" (safety interlock so grinder only runs with lid down) and calibration mark is on both the US and UK grinders I have (Made on production tooling)....so it's not new on production models....

However the Prototype grinder had no calibration mark and the interlock was whitish, so the sharp eyed (like you) will have noticed a difference from the prototype.


----------



## Dylan

Very good to hear they will offer a warranty to backers, and speaks volumes of the confidence they have in their product. Well done Niche.


----------



## jonnycooper29




----------



## Batian

I have gone through many of the posts/threads and 'the DaveC review' trying to get the answer to a minor niggle. So if it is there, please, someone direct me, if not perhaps Davecuk or the Niche people could answer.

It's that switch. It looks very 'sticky outy' from the sleek lines of the machine.

Is it vulnerable to damage from casual 'brushing' by a sleeve or tea-towel?


----------



## DavecUK

Not really


----------



## jonnycooper29

Batian said:


> It's that switch. It looks very 'sticky outy' from the sleek lines of the machine.
> 
> Is it vulnerable to damage from casual 'brushing' by a sleeve or tea-towel?


I feel like if this was an issue, in the 3 years of testing different prototypes etc, they would have picked up on it..

I had never even thought about this being a problem in the whole time I've been looking at the Niche!

Also, if it does ever break, I have no doubt that Niche will do their best to help out, and if not, it would cost less than £5 to replace..


----------



## Batian

I feel that if Iam about to spend a large amount of money, I am entitled to, and should ask.

I have in the past purchased numerous items that have had years of testing, only to find that something has been missed that at the outset has seemed insignificant.

A similar issue would be with the felt washer in the Sage Grinder Pro. A small item easily and cheaply replaced, but very inconvenient when you have to do so, along with fighting Sage customer services and the post!

And as you say, you have only been looking at the machine, not exactly handling and using it, so I still ask those that have to reassure me, please.


----------



## lake_m

It kinda needs to be sticky outy though doesn't it? Imagine using any other type of switch with this lightweight machine it would probably knock it over. That or you would need to use two hands one to steady it. This way it is operable with one hand and a deft sweep up or down.


----------



## Batian

lake_m said:


> It kinda needs to be sticky outy though doesn't it? Imagine using any other type of switch with this lightweight machine it would probably knock it over. That or you would need to use two hands one to steady it. This way it is operable with one hand and a deft sweep up or down.


Push switch? Touch sensitive switch?


----------



## Inglorious Alf

Batian said:


> Push switch? Touch sensitive switch?


The push switch on the Vario (similar size grinder) needed you to hold the top of the panel with your other fingers to steady it. And I guess touch sensitive ones just have more to go wrong, or are a pain to use (thinking of Acaia Pearl).

Rocket Evoluzione R 2017 | Niche Zero (coming soon!) | VST 18g Ridgeless | Acaia Pearl | TORR 58.55mm


----------



## Robbo

I am seriously thinking about upgrading to this grinder. The low/no retention being the main point that appeals to me.

At the moment i have 2 grinders. I use the mignon for espresso and the we also use a santos no.1 for everything else. (filter, mokka, cafetierre). Considdering i have an espresso before work and the wife will make a filter brew later in the morning, would the Niche be a suitable replacement for both grinders?


----------



## PaulL

I couldn't find the photos I was sure I posted here around the end of March so posting them again if anyone is interested.

Niche and Ceado E37s

  

Niche and Quickmill Verona

  

Niche and '8-cup' Cafetiere

  

Niche and '3-cup' Ikea Moka pot


----------



## PaulL

Thanks for the likes.

I'll add a few thoughts on why I took these particular photos when Dave brought the prototype round to mine back then and perhaps a different perspective to the thread so far. It's not surprising that with 137 pages there is a lot of traffic on the espresso side, maybe bewildering to newcomers or those who are not geeks, enthusiasts, chasing the golden shots, measuring volumes in and out, using lab equipment to analyise shot quality and so on. In my posts I have said I see the Niche as lifestyle machine, kitchen-friendly and unassuming.

The Niche and E37s shows sheer size difference against one of many 'cafe' grinders capable of commercial use. Huge flat burrs in a clever compact design, capable of working to repay for itself all day long, many qualities in design build and use. However, you have a throat and retention, you can't switch coffees instantly. Maybe your taste varies, maybe others in your family or friends want something else. I know my E37s grind settings so if I use only a little coffee (noting all the usual experience of E37s owners about weight on the coffee for best grind) I have my grind/timer settings so I can switch from one coffee to another. But it's still a ballache compared with a Niche. So if you weigh your beans (11.5g in my case for a single) and put them in the Niche you only need to know the grind setting, you can switch back and forth with ease.

The Niche and Verona show the neat look but another benefit is the Niche height, you con't have to slide a heavy grinder back and forth as you do with the E37s and several taller grinders, weight your beans, open the lid, adjust the collar, super convenient. It also shows that the little switch speculated on isn't an issue, in fact probably the best type for ease of use.

The Niche and cafetiere shows again the compact size relative to other kitchen items and again you adjust the collar to a coarser setting and away you go. Maybe you just want a pot of coffee whilst you are working, maybe you don't drink espresso or want to invest in the expensive machinery, maybe you have coffees you prefer brewed this way. The Niche and Moka pot show more of the above. You can travel easily with these items too, maybe off to family for a gathering for example.

I have no affiliation with Niche of course, these are just a personal perspective on how owners might use theirs and as I mentioned previously, I am personally looking forward to blending on the fly again which I have not done for a few years knowing I can quickly get used to different combinations, playing with ratios, adjusting the collar instantly. I won't be selling my E37s at a give-away price when the Niche arrives. I suspect it will be put away for a while whilst I play and we'll see after that.


----------



## IggyK

So temped by the niche, need a new grinder hario mini mill has packed up keeps going out of alignment no matter how I fix it so maybe...


----------



## Dylan

IggyK said:


> So temped by the niche, need a new grinder hario mini mill has packed up keeps going out of alignment no matter how I fix it so maybe...


That would be a quantum leap in grinding experience


----------



## 4085

Dylan said:


> That would be a quantum leap in grinding experience


allegedly.......LOL


----------



## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> allegedly.......LOL


Almost anything is better than a Hario Mini mill, I do not have fond memories of the one I had... but I was trying to use it for espresso.


----------



## Phil104

Dylan said:


> Almost anything is better than a Hario Mini mill, I do not have fond memories of the one I had... but I was trying to use it for espresso.


And that reminded me that it was my first grinder and for espresso, too... the blisters on my fingers persuaded my wife that that a Eureka Minion would be a better bet to stop my complaining.


----------



## Phil104

As well as 'liking' your post, thank you for this addition. Unfortunately my inner geek got the better of me and I just wanted to say that it's not the 'golden shot' that we're chasing but the 'god shot'... and there is a difference (I think the golden shot is more attainable).:



PaulL said:


> Thanks for the likes.
> 
> I'll add a few thoughts on why I took these particular photos when Dave brought the prototype round to mine back then and perhaps a different perspective to the thread so far. It's not surprising that with 137 pages there is a lot of traffic on the espresso side, maybe bewildering to newcomers or those who are not geeks, enthusiasts, chasing the golden shots .....


----------



## PaulL

Lots of laughs Phil, kind of proves the point that if you allow yourself to, you even start forgetting the hobby-speak you once chased to attain. You are right of course


----------



## Dylan

The Golden Shot is what you start chasing once you become classed as a Grumpy Old Man/Woman.


----------



## gfunk03

Does anyone know when the Niche grinder will be posted for people who didn't back it at the start? i assume they will be sending them out in order (I placed mine when it was £425). I have been using a Sage Smart Grinder Pro for a few months along with my Sage DTP and am struggling to get anything halfway decent from the grinder. Looking forward to getting the Niche to see if it's the grinder or just poor technique on my part lol!


----------



## Phil104

And this was only after one espresso and a 250ml pour over but it was all ground through the Niche.


----------



## Mrboots2u

gfunk03 said:


> Does anyone know when the Niche grinder will be posted for people who didn't back it at the start? i assume they will be sending them out in order (I placed mine when it was £425). I have been using a Sage Smart Grinder Pro for a few months along with my Sage DTP and am struggling to get anything halfway decent from the grinder. Looking forward to getting the Niche to see if it's the grinder or just poor technique on my part lol!


You should be able to get something drinkable from the Sage, start a new thread detailing your method, better to get it sorted before the new kit .


----------



## DavecUK

gfunk03 said:


> Does anyone know when the Niche grinder will be posted for people who didn't back it at the start? i assume they will be sending them out in order (I placed mine when it was £425). I have been using a Sage Smart Grinder Pro for a few months along with my Sage DTP and am struggling to get anything halfway decent from the grinder. Looking forward to getting the Niche to see if it's the grinder or just poor technique on my part lol!


I imagine it will be a bit like a bus....for a long time nothing, then you get a load at once.....







seriously it's probably going to be when they said it would be at the time you backed it.


----------



## gfunk03

Mrboots2u said:


> You should be able to get something drinkable from the Sage, start a new thread detailing your method, better to get it sorted before the new kit .


Cheers, will do, before I actually give up with it lol


----------



## gfunk03

DavecUK said:


> I imagine it will be a bit like a bus....for a long time nothing, then you get a load at once.....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> seriously it's probably going to be when they said it would be at the time you backed it.


If only i could remember when that was lol, I'll have to hunt through my emails lol


----------



## Banjoman

gfunk03 said:


> If only i could remember when that was lol, I'll have to hunt through my emails lol


From update 36: "... Our suppliers estimate it will be the end of August before they can air freight the new grind cups."

So that may mean they can start shipping them very shortly after that(?). (I'm guessing that when they start shipping the first batch, there won't be too much delay before they can satisfy everyone who backed it.)


----------



## Dylan

Yea, it's my kinda rough reading of the situation that according to their initial plans the original backers would have got them already, but because of the delays new and old orders are backed up and will be sent out (hopefully in order) mostly in one go.

Not basing this on much other than general reading of this thread, so I may be making thing up! Their Indiegogo does say October now for new orders, so they obviously haven't got every single order ready.


----------



## gfunk03

cheers guys! Very excited to receive mine!


----------



## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> Yea, it's my kinda rough reading of the situation that according to their initial plans the original backers would have got them already, but because of the delays new and old orders are backed up and will be sent out (hopefully in order) mostly in one go.
> 
> Not basing this on much other than general reading of this thread, so I may be making thing up! Their Indiegogo does say October now for new orders, so they obviously haven't got every single order ready.


I think the Logistics of boxing and storing 100s more grinders was pretty daunting.* If it were me,* I would build only what I need to ship in the first batch, box and store them and when the cups come in, unbox em place the cups in then ship. Only then I would carry on building, boxing and shipping the next batches, without the hassle of warehousing them.

To do anything else would simply increase their costs and probably only gain those not in the first batch a few days....of course, if you have a deckchair out, the letterbox wedged open and a pair of binoculars ready looking for Postie.....then that's probably small consolation


----------



## Dylan

That would depend on if they had anything else to occupy their staff - they either build and stockpile ready to send out, have something else to do, or stand everyone down.

I would have thought the former option the best for turnaround/profit?


----------



## jonnycooper29

Ok, my excitement level is going to be through the roof if they keep posting these pics..


----------



## Jony

I feel for you.NOT haha


----------



## jonnycooper29

Jony said:


> I feel for you.NOT haha


1st world problems eh?


----------



## DavecUK

Where are you getting these from


----------



## slamm

DavecUK said:


> Where are you getting these from


Niche's instagram feed.. do keep up Dave!

















__
http://instagr.am/p/BnHEGf7DIZK/


----------



## cloughy

And the black . They're off Instagram.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I can't wait when they post one with the cup in place


----------



## Rhys

@Niche Coffee I'm having a serious dilemma.. Do I stick with the white, or change to the black? (..and no, buying a second black one isn't an option lol. I've enough grinders as it is







)

If I change it to black to fit in with my 'stuff', I'm wondering where it'll fit in..



















Or I could have it elsewhere and use it for a the Mukka Express to make a morning cappuccino for breakfast instead of dimming the streetlights while my Speedster warms up









Will be interesting to compare between the three though.. Large flat vs large conical vs flat/conical hybrid..


----------



## MildredM

Could you perch it atop your clock @Rhys ?


----------



## Rhys

MildredM said:


> Could you perch it atop your clock @Rhys ?


Either that, or shove it under the EK


----------



## DavecUK

Rhys said:


> @Niche Coffee I'm having a serious dilemma.. Do I stick with the white, or change to the black? (..and no, buying a second black one isn't an option lol. I've enough grinders as it is
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> If I change it to black to fit in with my 'stuff', I'm wondering where it'll fit in..


Ur mad, mad I say.....


----------



## Rhys

DavecUK said:


> Ur mad, mad I say.....


Nah, I'm just as mad as the next six foot rabbit..

@DavecUK if you were any closer you'd be welcome to do a side by side evaluation. I expect the outcome would be quite interesting, and could possibly be surprising based on your results on the Niche so far.


----------



## salty

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I can't wait when they post one with the cup in place


Could be a little while yet










Hopefully not too much longer ??


----------



## DavecUK

Rhys said:


> Nah, I'm just as mad as the next six foot rabbit..
> 
> @DavecUK if you were any closer you'd be welcome to do a side by side evaluation. I expect the outcome would be quite interesting, and could possibly be surprising based on your results on the Niche so far.


Can you imagine being stuck in the middle of that...I had enough hate after I reviewed the vario grinders (damn phone putting words in) among others!


----------



## ashcroc

Rhys said:


> Either that, or shove it under the EK


It'd look fantastic sitting between the legs.


----------



## Rhys

ashcroc said:


> It'd look fantastic sitting between the legs.


It'd probably fit as well lol


----------



## joey24dirt

Ive been following this feed from the start and didn't really want it at the time, but now all the pictures are coming out of them being built, it's definitely got me hooked. Also, I'd love to replace that wood for some of my own just to see how it looks


----------



## tohenk2

joey24dirt said:


> Ive been following this feed from the start and didn't really want it at the time, but now all the pictures are coming out of them being built, it's definitely got me hooked. Also, I'd love to replace that wood for some of my own just to see how it looks


Based on your other work? I think Great!


----------



## L&R

When are they planning to switch to normal production without pre-orders etc?


----------



## ajohn

L&R said:


> When are they planning to switch to normal production without pre-orders etc?


Do that is another step in some ways. Assembly needs people so they might stick to a sort of Aston Martin / Morgan model for some time - always on order. If say Amazon and others started selling them it can be a rather different ball game when stock levels need to be thought about.

There is an interesting sum that can be done as well. £222,805 raised and 620 backers = £359.36 per unit as a lot of the backers will be very early ones.

So I would suspect that if some one wants one it's best to just order and wait as it could be some time before things settle down.

John

-


----------



## richwade80

I think the 620 'backers' is the number of payments made and actually includes some smaller payments. You might have seen the odd £25 payment for example. I guess this could be shipping costs paid later? I'm not sure to be honest.

Anyway, the real average purchase is higher as the number of units sold is less than 620.

You can check this if you copy out the list of payments to excel. Not that I did this of course....


----------



## ajohn

richwade80 said:


> I think the 620 'backers' is the number of payments made and actually includes some smaller payments. You might have seen the odd £25 payment for example. I guess this could be shipping costs paid later? I'm not sure to be honest.
> 
> Anyway, the real average purchase is higher as the number of units sold is less than 620.
> 
> You can check this if you copy out the list of payments to excel. Not that I did this of course....


From what I can gather shipping costs are added on when one is ordered. If you wanted you could redo the sum assuming 10% of the payers paid £25 for some reason that escapes me as well. The main thing I was pointing out is that there are a fair few to put together. Using batches as they have makes that a bit easier for them to handle. Delays don't help though as the back log builds up. It's a new enterprise so this sort of thing is to be expected not worried about over much.

I only posted perhaps a bit indirectly in response to Joey's when will they be in "production". That may not be as simple as some might think.

John.

-


----------



## moots

L&R said:


> When are they planning to switch to normal production without pre-orders etc?


Probably best to email [email protected] and ask that question.


----------



## tohenk2

ajohn said:


> From what I can gather shipping costs are added on when one is ordered. If you wanted you could redo the sum assuming 10% of the payers paid £25 for some reason that escapes me as well. The main thing I was pointing out is that there are a fair few to put together. Using batches as they have makes that a bit easier for them to handle. Delays don't help though as the back log builds up. It's a new enterprise so this sort of thing is to be expected not worried about over much.
> 
> I only posted perhaps a bit indirectly in response to Joey's when will they be in "production". That may not be as simple as some might think.
> 
> John.
> 
> -


The



£
​
25 payments come from switching the white colour to black. (Te Niche Zero production started out with white s the only option. Black was later added at a premium, and later was available at the same higher price)


----------



## PaulL

richwade80 said:


> I think the 620 'backers' is the number of payments made and actually includes some smaller payments. You might have seen the odd £25 payment for example. I guess this could be shipping costs paid later? I'm not sure to be honest.
> 
> Anyway, the real average purchase is higher as the number of units sold is less than 620.
> 
> You can check this if you copy out the list of payments to excel. Not that I did this of course....


My estimate would be around 540, maybe just a little over.

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

...

... because it says so on the Instagram page linked to a couple of pages ago ( #1386 )


----------



## pj.walczak

September, no updates in last 15 days, nothing about the cup.

I wonder when we can expect delivery.


----------



## jonnycooper29

pj.walczak said:


> September, no updates in last 15 days, nothing about the cup.
> 
> I wonder when we can expect delivery.


It won't be long I imagine!

Also, bare in mind they are updating us with their builds most days via Instagram.. another picture 25 minutes ago of the rather nice looking white one!


----------



## mctrials23

jonnycooper29 said:


> It won't be long I imagine!
> 
> Also, bare in mind they are updating us with their builds most days via Instagram.. another picture 25 minutes ago of the rather nice looking white one!


I'm pretty sure they have built the grinders already for the initial batch. They were planning to send it out at the start of August, then in mid august they said they have all the parts and would love to send them out now but the grind cups are not up to scratch. I imagine they are still just waiting on those.

Would be nice to have some sort of update on where they are with the grind cups.


----------



## Stevebee

I hope the first batch sent out is at least 500 units as looking at the list I'm at no. 481! The date was originally August when I signed up so fingers crossed they ship soon. Will relegate the E10 and Royal to the spare room as swopping between beans should be so much smoother once each bean is dialled in with the Niche.


----------



## DavecUK

Just clocked your signature, was it you who bought my CBR1200?


----------



## Stevebee

No, I've had mine for a couple of years, bought from Froggystyle. I went to see your power mod before I made an offer as I wouldn't want it without doing the mod. It gives so much repeatable control with the mod so thanks for your help with that. Batch after batch with identical weight loss % and colour meter readings - very consistent batch to batch and easy to vary the planned roast level (with the mod)


----------



## ncrc51

In the U.S. a CBR1200 is a very fast Honda motorcycle.


----------



## jonnycooper29

ncrc51 said:


> In the U.S. a CBR1200 is a very fast Honda motorcycle.


I was thinking earlier I'm clearly not there yet in the world of coffee as my mind went straight to a speedy bike!


----------



## salty

jonnycooper29 said:


> I was thinking earlier I'm clearly not there yet in the world of coffee as my mind went straight to a speedy bike!


Me too


----------



## BaggaZee

ncrc51 said:


> In the U.S. a CBR1200 is a very fast Honda motorcycle.


Hmmm, Honda have made a CBR1300 and a VFR1200 IIRC but never a CBR1200.

Neither is particularly fast.

<pedantry hat back in its box></pedantry>


----------



## ncrc51

I'm not so sure about that. https://www.cbrxx.com/introductions/14217-cbr-1200-a.html


----------



## BaggaZee

That'd be a CBR1200XX.

A bored out Blackbird, very fast indeed.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Stevebee said:


> I hope the first batch sent out is at least 500 units as looking at the list I'm at no. 481! The date was originally August when I signed up so fingers crossed they ship soon. Will relegate the E10 and Royal to the spare room as swopping between beans should be so much smoother once each bean is dialled in with the Niche.


How can i find out what number i'm at on this list?


----------



## Stevebee

If you signed up 4 months ago as Deeez you are no.499.

Just cut and paste into excel, exclude the £25 colour change to black premiums, and do a bit of excel jiggery pokery and you have the list.


----------



## jonnycooper29

I'm 598


----------



## Stevebee

I did the spreadsheet on my ipad - not all excel functions work. Re did on pc and I'm 451







Deeez is 468 and johnny - a little better at 560. Some of the £25 were included in error.


----------



## jonnycooper29

Stevebee said:


> I did the spreadsheet on my ipad - not all excel functions work. Re did on pc and I'm 451
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Deeez is 468 and johnny - a little better at 560. Some of the £25 were included in error.


Thanks for redoing it!  not quite as bad at 560!


----------



## J_Fo

Stevebee said:


> If you signed up 4 months ago as Deeez you are no.499.
> 
> Just cut and paste into excel, exclude the £25 colour change to black premiums, and do a bit of excel jiggery pokery and you have the list.


Anyone fancy helping me out with this!?


----------



## BaggaZee

Click on Contribution Details on IndieGoGo and it'll tell you your Contribution ID (473).


----------



## jonnycooper29

BaggaZee said:


> Click on Contribution Details on IndieGoGo and it'll tell you your Contribution ID (473).


Dont think that's quite correct as my ID is 1163..


----------



## Drewster

Stevebee said:


> If you signed up 4 months ago as Deeez you are no.499.
> 
> Just cut and paste into excel, exclude the £25 colour change to black premiums, and do a bit of excel jiggery pokery and you have the list.


It never ceases to amaze me the wonderful (if convoluted) things that can be done with excel (and some logic)......



BaggaZee said:


> Click on Contribution Details on IndieGoGo and it'll tell you your Contribution ID (473).


It similarly never ceases to amaze me how often there is no need.......


----------



## Drewster

.....

I once knew a chap who wrote various interlinked macros that read a table and produced various statistics on the data... the number of entries in the table, the average, maximum value etc etc....

He was having a few issues with some complex logic so put in a help desk call..... as I worked in support I ended up going to see him (lets just say he was somewhat obtuse in explaining his issue)........

When I saw what he was doing I nearly cried!!!

I said - Just use @Max, @average @count etc. I am NOT wasting my time reinventing wheels....


----------



## mctrials23

Mine is 316. I assume it started at 1?


----------



## Dayks

Well I'm lucky, 4th backer, so I imagine I'm getting mine in the first batch going out.


----------



## mctrials23

Dayks said:


> Well I'm lucky, 4th backer, so I imagine I'm getting mine in the first batch going out.


Is your contribution ID 4 or is that just from looking at the list?


----------



## Dayks

mctrials23 said:


> Is your contribution ID 4 or is that just from looking at the list?


From the list, not seeing the option for contribution ID on the app.


----------



## jonnycooper29

Dayks said:


> From the list, not seeing the option for contribution ID on the app.


I had to go online to find my ID, but I'm not sure it will help in finding where you are in the contribution order!


----------



## mctrials23

OK, I'm number 35 based on the list.


----------



## Dayks

jonnycooper29 said:


> I had to go online to find my ID, but I'm not sure it will help in finding where you are in the contribution order!


Thanks, found it on the website my ID is 4 so it matches the list for me. I wonder if people who changed colour will have an inaccurate ID.


----------



## mctrials23

I have 2 IDs, one for the first purchase and another for the "upgrade". Its weird that your contribution ID is 4 as I am 35th on the list on the website yet my contribution ID for that is in the 300's. The contribution ID for the colour change is 1089 or something like that.


----------



## 4085

Where is this list please that everyone talks of?


----------



## J_Fo

Hey @dfk41 here



BaggaZee said:


> Click on Contribution Details on IndieGoGo and it'll tell you your Contribution ID (473).


Big thanks for this!

952

Hope I don't have to wait too long...


----------



## Stevebee

I have a list in Excel / Word and even HTM file but not sure how to attach. As text it exceeds the limit for a post.


----------



## mctrials23

Stevebee said:


> I have a list in Excel / Word and even HTM file but not sure how to attach. As text it exceeds the limit for a post.


You could stick it up as a google document with public access.


----------



## Stevebee

I'll give google docs a go. All from the Niche site. £25 not included, Private are. Seq (last column) is the place in queue.

First time I've tried this so apologies if it can't be seen!

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mKUOfiaiDw_15SfnsdCNUK_vDTf40gO4FrroVj4Jgtw/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Banjoman

Thank you for posting. It's clear from the list that the 'contribution id' is not the same as (and presumably has no bearing on) an individual's position on the list (which was a relief to me when I found my contribution id was a lot higher than I would have expected).

It would be good to get an update from Niche as to the current position regarding the delivery of the stainless steel cups from their supplier. The last update (as far as I'm aware) was that they were expected by the end of August.


----------



## ChrisBy

Thanks Stevebee!

513... I'll try and prepare myself to view it as a Christmas gift to myself, just in case.


----------



## Beeroclock

Banjoman said:


> Thank you for posting. It's clear from the list that the 'contribution id' is not the same as (and presumably has no bearing on) an individual's position on the list (which was a relief to me when I found my contribution id was a lot higher than I would have expected).
> 
> It would be good to get an update from Niche as to the current position regarding the delivery of the stainless steel cups from their supplier. The last update (as far as I'm aware) was that they were expected by the end of August.


Yes would hope so, as I was in the first 60 odd orders and my ID is in the 300's


----------



## 4085

I am down as 7 and 11. I then changed one to black and also appear as 220.....make of that what you can!


----------



## Stevebee

@dfk41 7 and 11 are your numbers. If you see, I only increase the number for the payment, not for the £25 change of colour. So in your case ignore any number allocated for the £25. The counter only increases for a genuine sale - if that makes sense


----------



## Stevebee

Maybe I should have deleted all the £25 to avoid confusion but I wanted the list to represent what was seen on the Niche site including everything.


----------



## 4085

Stevebee said:


> Maybe I should have deleted all the £25 to avoid confusion but I wanted the list to represent what was seen on the Niche site including everything.


Your efforts are appreciated matey.....


----------



## Nopapercup

Putting myself down as anonymous I still have no clue where I am except I contributed on the 7 September


----------



## DavecUK

Nopapercup said:


> Putting myself down as anonymous I still have no clue where I am except I contributed on the 7 September


I wouldn't worry, I can guarantee all this work with spreadsheets and estimating position on this list, won't get the grinders delivered any sooner.


----------



## jaffro

Nopapercup said:


> Putting myself down as anonymous I still have no clue where I am except I contributed on the 7 September


Same, although sure I'm close to the front... I was straight in there when the site started back up, after we crashed it with all our enthusiastic payments.


----------



## Beeroclock

DavecUK said:


> I wouldn't worry, I can guarantee all this work with spreadsheets and estimating position on this list, won't get the grinders delivered any sooner.


Says the man with one sitting on his kitchen worktop:whistle:


----------



## Stevebee

Just wanted to prepare myself for the disappointment when they email that the first 400 are being sent and I'm just outside the first batch


----------



## ChrisBy

Beeroclock said:


> Says the man with one sitting on his kitchen worktop:whistle:


It's actually two, isn't it?


----------



## DavecUK

Beeroclock said:


> Says the man with one sitting on his kitchen worktop:whistle:


2 actually, a US and UK version.


----------



## Stevebee

DavecUK said:


> 2 actually, a US and UK version.


So that's what a smug emoji looks like Not jealous at all!


----------



## DavecUK

Stevebee said:


> So that's what a smug emoji looks like Not jealous at all!


Perhaps this will make you feel better


----------



## Stevebee

Stevebee said:


> Just wanted to prepare myself for the disappointment when they email that the first 400 are being sent and I'm just outside the first batch


Just seen the latest update from Niche - they have completed the first 400! - couldn't make it up







I'm 416)


----------



## tohenk2

update 39 says it all ;-)


----------



## DavecUK

Stevebee said:


> Just seen the latest update from Niche - they have completed the first 400! - couldn't make it up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm 416)


Just play that song and pretty soon you will feel chilled and OK with it all....Also cool with the knowledge that 400 people will happily be playing with their Niche while your grinder is being assembled. I must admit, I cannot easily contemplate going back to a "normal" grinder after the Niche.....so your wait, even though it's longer than 400 other people...will be worth it.


----------



## jonnycooper29

I'm happy in the knowledge that they are cracking on with the cup building and should be done soon- even if I am outside of the 400 soon to be happy owners..

I am hoping that Martin is having more cups built than is currently needed, so we don't have another situation like this when the post first 400 orders are due to be sent out!


----------



## Stevebee

I'm guessing that by time the cups actually arrive, they would have squeezed out a few more


----------



## cotag

How can I find out my order number? I have now idea if I am in the first 400 or not. Order ID is 1071.


----------



## Nopapercup

DavecUK said:


> I wouldn't worry, I can guarantee all this work with spreadsheets and estimating position on this list, won't get the grinders delivered any sooner.


I'm not too concerned when mine arrives. I'm currently in France, its being posted to the uk so not sure I'll get much of a chance to pick it up this side of Christmas


----------



## Stevebee

My ID is just over 70 before yours and I'm 416 in line so I'm guessing you're circa 475. As I said before by the time the cups arrive it might be more than 400. My guess is they are going to try to service all those that had an August date to be delivered when you signed up but just speculating.


----------



## cotag

Thank you very much!


----------



## matomoto

cotag said:


> How can I find out my order number? I have now idea if I am in the first 400 or not. Order ID is 1071.


My Id it's 1070 ?

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Jony

I haven't even got one, I missed the boat on this.


----------



## tohenk2

Jony said:


> I haven't even got one, I missed the boat on this.


You can still order on Indiegogo


----------



## Stevebee

Jony said:


> I haven't even got one, I missed the boat on this.


Some peoples situation may have changed since they committed to the project so I wouldn't be suprised to see a few in the For Sale section so you could wait until then.


----------



## Jony

Yep like a tramp on chips, I am on it haha


----------



## Kyle T

Just for those worrying about missing out on the first 400 built. I reached out to Niche and they have said that they are continuing to build as many as possible until the cups arrive.


----------



## mctrials23

The question is, how many cups have they ordered in this batch...


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> The question is, how many cups have they ordered in this batch...


Presumably 4 times less than the number of feet or the same number of cups as mains cables.


----------



## Mrboots2u

mctrials23 said:


> The question is, how many cups have they ordered in this batch...


Twelvty


----------



## Snakehips

DavecUK said:


> Presumably 4 times less than the number of feet or the same number of cups as mains cables.


Dave, please try not to be so positive...... it's upsetting the pessimists.


----------



## mctrials23

Snakehips said:


> Dave, please try not to be so positive...... it's upsetting the pessimists.


I know this is tongue in cheek but Dave already has two of these and most of you boys have grinders that are better than the niche already. Some of us aren't so well supplied!


----------



## Jony

Well now I only own a Feld2 your not on your own,haha


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> I know this is tongue in cheek but Dave already has two of these and most of you boys have grinders that are better than the niche already. Some of us aren't so well supplied!


Look on the bright side, every day that passes your chance of getting it tomorrow increases and your a little better off than yesterday.


----------



## 4085

DavecUK said:


> Look on the bright side, every day that passes your chance of getting it tomorrow increases and your a little better off than yesterday.


Unless you die meanwhile of course.........


----------



## J_Fo

Emailed the guys at Niche this morning to ask if they could let me know if I'm in the first 400 orders...

They very kindly just got back to me

I am order 383

\o/


----------



## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> Unless you die meanwhile of course.........


If that happens, fortunately you won't care.


----------



## 4085

DavecUK said:


> If that happens, fortunately you won't care.


How do you know.....?


----------



## Stevebee

dfk41 said:


> Unless you die meanwhile of course.........


If you ordered a black Niche you could always use it as a tombstone!


----------



## dan1502

Jon_Foster said:


> Emailed the guys at Niche this morning to ask if they could let me know if I'm in the first 400 orders...
> 
> They very kindly just got back to me
> 
> I am order 383
> 
> \o/


I think that'll put me just outside the first batch then :-(


----------



## cloughy

Just updated the indiegogo site to say they have continued to build and are now up to 450 units


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

Am I correct in thinking contribution ID isn't the same as order position? I'm in the 1160's. I would also imagine us that went for the black ones would have a different place in line as they came later?


----------



## Dylan

Yea, I think anyone who went for a tier that didn't have a grinder would still have got a contribution ID, so that will push the numbers up a bit. I think they did also say that the black ones would ship later initially, not sure if thats still the case, or if I am remembering correctly.


----------



## bartista

Hi there,

I need a quiet grinder as we're expecting a baby. I read Dave C's extensive review, as well as that from the Caffeine magazine.

I was a bit surprised to read in the latter that they rated the noise level of the Niche at 85dB, between the Sette 270 (95dB) and the new Eureka Mignon Series (Perfetto) (75dB).

Is the Niche really as quiet? - Has anyone had the chance to hear it at work, e.g. in comparison to the old Mignon, Atom, etc?

I'd love to get it, but now worried about noise again...

Thanks for opinions!


----------



## Dylan

The burrs spin much more slowly than your average grinder, reducing grinding noise significantly. DaveC has had extensive hands on experience with it and has allowed a few members to come and see it so there should be a few people here who can give you first hand opinions on the noise levels.

For truly quiet grinding, you should look at manual grinders.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Well Niche have informed me that I'm number 438. They have built more than 400 though so fingers crossed that they receive more than 400 cups!

Christmas could well be arriving early this year!!


----------



## jonnycooper29

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Well Niche have informed me that I'm number 438. They have built more than 400 though so fingers crossed that they receive more than 400 cups!
> 
> Christmas could well be arriving early this year!!


Dependent on cup order size, you could be one happy person very shortly..

I just hope they get the build number up to 529 soon


----------



## rdpx

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Well Niche have informed me that I'm number 438. They have built more than 400 though so fingers crossed that they receive more than 400 cups!
> 
> Christmas could well be arriving early this year!!


What is your contribution number?

We're 988 so think probably going to be on the cusp...


----------



## mctrials23

I would just wait and see. They might update us as to how many they have built periodically and their last update about the cups was 5 days ago and they weren't finished at the time. I don't know how long these things take to ship from China but a few weeks I would imagine so it could easily be the end of September at the earliest that they get to the UK. That gives them quite a while to build more grinders.


----------



## rdpx

mctrials23 said:


> They might update us as to how many they have built periodically


They have built 450 as of 6pm yesterday, according to their Instagram comments.


----------



## GingerBen

703 here. Just got to wait and see I suppose


----------



## bartista

Boy, any more actually informed experiences on the noise level, or is it mainly cue-numbers-exchange here?









If the caffeine magazine's dB measurements are right, noise is actually not that quiet - just between the super-loud Sette 270 and the (fairly) quiet new Mignon Series (Silentio, Specialita, etc), both of which grind around 1350 rpm.

Anyone actually heard this thing?


----------



## DavecUK

bartista said:


> Boy, any more actually informed experiences on the noise level, or is it mainly cue-numbers-exchange here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the caffeine magazine's dB measurements are right, noise is actually not that quiet - just between the super-loud Sette 270 and the (fairly) quiet new Mignon Series (Silentio, Specialita, etc), both of which grind around 1350 rpm.
> 
> Anyone actually heard this thing?


Yeah, it's not noisy


----------



## jonnycooper29

bartista said:


> Boy, any more actually informed experiences on the noise level, or is it mainly cue-numbers-exchange here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the caffeine magazine's dB measurements are right, noise is actually not that quiet - just between the super-loud Sette 270 and the (fairly) quiet new Mignon Series (Silentio, Specialita, etc), both of which grind around 1350 rpm.
> 
> Anyone actually heard this thing?


I'm not an expert, far from it, but I imagine the measurements can vary quite a lot due to testing parameters, I.e is it a fair test, same room, same surroundings etc etc

I would just take it from Dave that it's quiet, as his review says, it's one of the only grinders you can easily have a conversation over the top of.

Also, I imagine this is a fair amount quieter than the Sage SGP, people always made comments of how loud it was!


----------



## Jony

The Monolith was reasonably quiet.


----------



## GingerBen

bartista said:


> Boy, any more actually informed experiences on the noise level, or is it mainly cue-numbers-exchange here?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If the caffeine magazine's dB measurements are right, noise is actually not that quiet - just between the super-loud Sette 270 and the (fairly) quiet new Mignon Series (Silentio, Specialita, etc), both of which grind around 1350 rpm.
> 
> Anyone actually heard this thing?


yep I've used one a very small amount and it's not noisy


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

rdpx said:


> What is your contribution number?
> 
> We're 988 so think probably going to be on the cusp...


I'm not sure sorry.

You can just email them like I did and ask what number you are. They got straight back to me.


----------



## Viernes

GingerBen said:


> 703 here. Just got to wait and see I suppose


What means the numbers? Means not all the grinders will be available despite the date posted on indiegogo?


----------



## PPapa

Can we have one rule in this thread... no more numbers? It's not an auction!


----------



## PaulL

The date was always a target and the nature of Indiegogo meant it wasn't a certainty either. Plenty of itchy feet in recent pages but I can only imagine the frustration of Martin and his team, the impact on them must be much greater than on us.


----------



## tohenk2

Well at least they have a sense of humour - and asked (Instagram) "Who's excited to receive their Niche Zero?"


----------



## burmanm

jonnycooper29 said:


> I'm not an expert, far from it, but I imagine the measurements can vary quite a lot due to testing parameters, I.e is it a fair test, same room, same surroundings etc etc


Usually it is quite fair as every vendor wants to release the best numbers. So numbers do not usually lie, however the tone of the noise is something that might be different between grinders. And hearing is not constant for all different frequencies which makes comparison a bit more difficult. Not to mention that you and Dave might hear sounds differently (older/younger persons have different reception also).


----------



## DavecUK

Cheeky young whipper snapper I hear just fine...... what's that you say?


----------



## Jony

Pardon!!


----------



## cold war kid

bartista said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I need a quiet grinder as we're expecting a baby. I read Dave C's extensive review, as well as that from the Caffeine magazine.
> 
> I was a bit surprised to read in the latter that they rated the noise level of the Niche at 85dB, between the Sette 270 (95dB) and the new Eureka Mignon Series (Perfetto) (75dB).
> 
> Is the Niche really as quiet? - Has anyone had the chance to hear it at work, e.g. in comparison to the old Mignon, Atom, etc?
> 
> I'd love to get it, but now worried about noise again...
> 
> Thanks for opinions!


Is the grinder going to be in a different room to the baby, ie you don't have an open plan living area and kitchen? If not I wouldn't worry about it at all.

I used to own an MC2 that was LOUD and neither of the kids ever woke up, even with both of their bedrooms directly above the kitchen.

Babies tend to sleep like a &#8230; erm &#8230; baby.

You'll find you tip toe around for a few days then just get on with your day while they sleep after that.


----------



## ChrisBy

... wives on the other hand...


----------



## MildredM

ChrisBy said:


> ... wives on the other hand...


Careful now . . . . !


----------



## ChrisBy

MildredM said:


> Careful now . . . . !


Funnily enough, as I was about to click on that «Post Quick Reply» button, I was hesitating and thought: «I wonder if this post will be met with a sceptic response from this lovely MildredM person who roams this forum». Guess my extensive stalking is paying off.


----------



## MildredM

Seeing as @Snakehips is far too modest to blow his own trumpet ..........

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?46196-Lack-Of-Forum-Entertainment!


----------



## Inglorious Alf

Has this thread really been three days without a comment?! I guess Snakehips' video accounts for at least five days' worth of entertainment


----------



## lake_m

Inglorious Alf said:


> Has this thread really been three days without a comment?! I guess Snakehips' video accounts for at least five days' worth of entertainment


I think we've exhausted most of the anticipatory type banter, we just want the bloody grinders now!


----------



## mctrials23

Yeah, there isn't much more to be said. The makers of the grinder seem to be waiting for the cups to arrive and are generally ignoring any direct questions about when they might arrive. I guess if they don't know they don't see any point in speculating and probably disappointing us. Seeing how all the proposed dates they have offered have passed with no delivery they are probably just waiting to see what happens.


----------



## PPapa

mctrials23 said:


> Yeah, there isn't much more to be said. The makers of the grinder seem to be waiting for the cups to arrive and are generally ignoring any direct questions about when they might arrive. I guess if they don't know they don't see any point in speculating and probably disappointing us. Seeing how all the proposed dates they have offered have passed with no delivery they are probably just waiting to see what happens.


Would it be better to tell you that they will arrive in 2 weeks time (totally random date) and then tell you that the supplier disappeared, shipment is delayed/lost or the cups are not up to scratch?


----------



## mctrials23

Theres not a lot they can do that would be much better than anything else. Perhaps just a weekly update saying whats going on and where they are with the grind cups would be good.


----------



## cold war kid

I bit the bullet and backed it about a week ago. I didn't have the money really, but thought what the hell, I'll put it on the card otherwise there'll always be a reason not to get one.

Today I received an email from them and when I saw it I thought it was coming and I was getting it early ( it's not supposed to come til October ), but when I opened it, all it said was "thankyou for contributing to the Niche Zero, the best burr coffee grinder". A bit random.

I don't want to offend anybody as I know this has been meticulously developed over years and a lot of energy and resources have been poured into it, but without Dave's review I don't think it would have received even a quarter of the backing it did. For all it's great innovation and rock solid engineering, it would have struggled to get past it's lame presentation on Indiegogo.

Claims that it makes the freshest coffee, is the BEST burr grinder, the use of the term Expresso in the video which in itself isn't great and doesn't cut to the chase at all, wouldn't fill me with confidence on their own. I'd have done what the guy asking for grinder advice did the other day, had a quick look at the video and think no thanks. When he read Dave's review and a couple of people encouraged him to look into it further he completely changed his mind.

Anyway, I sound like a right whinge now but I'm just trying to say I'm grateful to Dave and others for testing and giving their thoughts on a machine that perhaps the makers didn't quite present as well a they could.


----------



## Dylan

Crowdfunding campaigns are dripping with hyperbole, I can barely browse through KS/IGG these days without getting really annoyed with all the campaigns saying "The first/only in the world" "The best obscure feature in the world", drives me potty.

At a guess I would think their 'marketing' was targeting more of an average Joe than a CFUK member, someone perhaps less annoyed by the erroneous 'X' in expresso or less questioning of claims to be the best in one way or another. I suspect however (if the owners list is anything to go by) that a sizeable proportion of their orders came from these pages, and that is largely down to DaveC - a fact which I believe they have recognised... I think they said what a massive difference his review had made to the crowdfunding launch.


----------



## Kyle T

PPapa said:


> Would it be better to tell you that they will arrive in 2 weeks time (totally random date) and then tell you that the supplier disappeared, shipment is delayed/lost or the cups are not up to scratch?


He mentioned that in his own post

"I guess if they don't know they don't see any point in speculating and probably disappointing us."


----------



## mctrials23

Dylan said:


> At a guess I would think their 'marketing' was targeting more of an average Joe than a CFUK member, someone perhaps less annoyed by the erroneous 'X' in expresso or less questioning of claims to be the best in one way or another. I suspect however (if the owners list is anything to go by) that a sizeable proportion of their orders came from these pages, and that is largely down to DaveC - a fact which I believe they have recognised... I think they said what a massive difference his review had made to the crowdfunding launch.


It was entirely the stuff on here and DaveC that encouraged me to invest in this. The main promo video was quite awkward and the good production quality was completely at odds with the poor "actors". I guess that because they weren't actors that was to be expected. What always amazed me is the quality of some of the crowd funding products videos. They must have spent a lot of money to produce slick videos before even getting to the first stages of production.

Hopefully once we have these in our hands they can really start to push into the mainstream market. £230,000 seems like a decent amount of money but I would hazard a guess that once indiegogo have taken their cut, production costs have been absorbed and various people paid for their work on this there won't be much left for the actual owner!


----------



## Dylan

mctrials23 said:


> £230,000 seems like a decent amount of money but I would hazard a guess that once indiegogo have taken their cut, production costs have been absorbed and various people paid for their work on this there won't be much left for the actual owner!


The total for the crowdfunding is very rarely all the money the company has. Crowdfunding is by and large used to show consumer interest and then raise venture capital. Each project is different, but VC is often several times the amount raised by the campaign itself.


----------



## 4085

In this case, the Indiegogo launch was solely being used to cover tooling costs......like any long term approach, the profit will come, perhaps not from the first few production runs, but it will still come. Sure there were mistakes/errors of judgement, such as not posting to US and OZ (why not?), not co-launching a 110 volt grinder but these have been overcome. Once these land and us mere mortals have them in our hands for a play , then the jury will expand and there are bound to be a whole range of reviews and discussions


----------



## ChrisBy

Story with regards to watching the vid, dismissing the product, reading Dave's review, then backing it went exactly the same for me.

How does it feel, Dave, to have such a significant influence on the success of a product that you have no personal or financial stake in (besides reputation at this stage, I guess...)?


----------



## DavecUK

ChrisBy said:


> Story with regards to watching the vid, dismissing the product, reading Dave's review, then backing it went exactly the same for me.
> 
> How does it feel, Dave, to have such a significant influence on the success of a product that you have no personal or financial stake in (besides reputation at this stage, I guess...)?


It feels good to have been involved with something new that works really well and is affordable. I think it will start a trend of home friendly grinders capable of high quality output.

It's a UK company, that took advice, took a chance and worked really hard. They had a choice to make it good or make it great. They chose to make it great and take a lot less profit!

If you all love it as much as I do, that's enough reward for me. Just to have been a small part of something bigger.

As for black or white, I wish I had 2 grinders, one of each colour.... isn't that silly


----------



## 4085

It is odd where a chance encounter can sometimes lead to, hey Dave!


----------



## cold war kid

Dylan said:


> Crowdfunding campaigns are dripping with hyperbole, I can barely browse through KS/IGG these days without getting really annoyed with all the campaigns saying "The first/only in the world" "The best obscure feature in the world", drives me potty.
> 
> At a guess I would think their 'marketing' was targeting more of an average Joe than a CFUK member, someone perhaps less annoyed by the erroneous 'X' in expresso or less questioning of claims to be the best in one way or another. I suspect however (if the owners list is anything to go by) that a sizeable proportion of their orders came from these pages, and that is largely down to DaveC - a fact which I believe they have recognised... I think they said what a massive difference his review had made to the crowdfunding launch.


If they were aiming this product at average Joe I think that was another mistake. This is the sort of product that the geeks have been crying out for. Average Joe doesn't even know he needs a grinder usually, and when he does what could be better than the one with Starbucks or Heston's endorsement?

I'd like to point out I've got a massive amount of respect for anybody with the balls to run with an idea like this. It often involves remorgaging the house to even get it to a point were it appears on IGG. It's also properly British and going off all the reports is a classic example of the sort of engineering the British have always done so well. I'm not slagging it off. Just stating the obvious I suppose.


----------



## Dylan

cold war kid said:


> If they were aiming this product at average Joe I think that was another mistake. This is the sort of product that the geeks have been crying out for. Average Joe doesn't even know he needs a grinder usually, and when he does what could be better than the one with Starbucks or Heston's endorsement?
> 
> I'd like to point out I've got a massive amount of respect for anybody with the balls to run with an idea like this. It often involves remorgaging the house to even get it to a point were it appears on IGG. It's also properly British and going off all the reports is a classic example of the sort of engineering the British have always done so well. I'm not slagging it off. Just stating the obvious I suppose.


Think of the 'Average Joe' market in this context to be the relatively wealthy consumer. The market Sage target for example - they actually make some very respectable machines, but they don't aim their marketing at coffee 'enthusiasts'.

The reason is of course the sheer size of the market. Even if niche manage to penetrate 50% of the enthusiast market (represented quite well on this forum) it would be a fraction of the sales by penetrating a fraction of a percent of the wider market.

The enthusiast market can be a springboard for a more general market, build a quality product that is well respected by people who really care about its performance and that info will find its way out into the world and generate sales amongst folk less 'in the know'.

I know your not slagging it off, I'm just providing a devil's advocate argument and reasoning for why a video that looks pretty awful to us might appeal to a broader market.


----------



## jlarkin

DavecUK said:


> As for black or white, I wish I had 2 grinders, one of each colour.... isn't that silly


I think they should do you a special edition one that changes colour, or just in gold .

Thanks Dave for the review, it's also the reason I decided to back something at the time I thought I didn't need but just wanted. I think most people will enjoy having the Niche very much - having been lucky enough to have one for a while I can't see much not to like.


----------



## Jony

Thanks for the update.


----------



## Beeroclock

Must admit I'm finding the situation sightly laughable - that after all these years of development, we are now waiting on what is effectively a chocolate shaker. I have 2 of these sat here in front of me - they cost about a quid on eBay. If you look Niche's photo's most of them clearly show a rendered cup, but there are few that don't including Dave's video which shows the indents on the side for the sieve/shaker part to screw onto.


----------



## jonnycooper29

Beeroclock said:


> Must admit I'm finding the situation sightly laughable - that after all these years of development, we are now waiting on what is effectively a chocolate shaker. I have 2 of these sat here in front of me - they cost about a quid on eBay. If you look Niche's photo's most of them clearly show a rendered cup, but there are few that don't including Dave's video which shows the indents on the side for the sieve/shaker part to screw onto.


I'm waiting on a cup that I can't even use as I believe it was intended I've got the DTP with a 54mm PF, and I think the idea is to shake the grinds then fit into the PF to pour out!


----------



## DavecUK

Beeroclock said:


> Must admit I'm finding the situation sightly laughable - that after all these years of development, we are now waiting on what is effectively a chocolate shaker. I have 2 of these sat here in front of me - they cost about a quid on eBay. If you look Niche's photo's most of them clearly show a rendered cup, but there are few that don't including Dave's video which shows the indents on the side for the sieve/shaker part to screw onto.


The Initial cup on the prototype was a chocolate shaker, but the ones I have here are custom made for the Niche and not chocolate shakers, have the Niche branding on the bottom. I uploaded a video rather than a photo so you can see it from all angles and suspect no photoshop has been used.


----------



## Stevebee

I think with hindsight, if they knew the extent of the cup delay (they we're told they'd arrive end of August), they may have chosen a different route to proceed but we are where we are now. Just hope they arrive soon as their frustration must be worse than ours!


----------



## ajohn

dfk41 said:


> In this case, the Indiegogo launch was solely being used to cover tooling costs......like any long term approach, the profit will come, perhaps not from the first few production runs, but it will still come. Sure there were mistakes/errors of judgement, such as not posting to US and OZ (why not?), not co-launching a 110 volt grinder but these have been overcome. Once these land and us mere mortals have them in our hands for a play , then the jury will expand and there are bound to be a whole range of reviews and discussions


Many things start up restricted to one country. It can a make sense as it may be easier to support. Anyway I thought I had read that they were shipping a limited number to the US and that quota was all sold.







I wondered if those had special labels - don't operate with the cover off, don't poke your finger in, not suitable for use by a person under 14 etc. Maybe a Mazzer catch all or is it - only suitable for professional use. I did have one brand new one for a while even though it turned out to have been used and carefully repacked.

John

-


----------



## Beeroclock

DavecUK said:


> The Initial cup on the prototype was a chocolate shaker, but the ones I have here are custom made for the Niche and not chocolate shakers, have the Niche branding on the bottom. I uploaded a video rather than a photo so you can see it from all angles and suspect no photoshop has been used.


Fair play - that does look good!


----------



## mctrials23

My main question from that video is, what is that bean container you are using Dave? The vacuum plunger looks good.


----------



## kusmi

https://planetarydesign.com/shop/

There are glass, ceramics and stainless steel ones. I have the steel ones and Planetary Design (the company behind this) told me, the steel one have better tolerances, so the plunger might fit sliiiightly better. Ceramics shrinks during the heating process and I guess the shrinking is not always completely the same, but they look great  I don't know for glass...


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> The Initial cup on the prototype was a chocolate shaker, but the ones I have here are custom made for the Niche and not chocolate shakers, have the Niche branding on the bottom. I uploaded a video rather than a photo so you can see it from all angles and suspect no photoshop has been used
> 
> That is the idea, but the cup is also part of the system for catching the grinds and removing the last bit of static. I tried with grinding into just a portafilter and with a portafilter + ring the result was unsatisfactory. I did this because initially I wasn't used to using the cup and inverting into the portafilter. Initially. *I recommend you use the cup and then tip it into the portafilter using a portafilter ring of some kind. *The cup also allows a quick mix of the coffee as per results of a forum experiment on single bean feeding a grinder, where as the weight of beans decreases the grind becomes slightly coarser. I use a chopstick to give them a quick stir.










I made it 43sec via pause on youtube.

Stirring the grinds before inverting into the portafilter may solve a problem I seemed to have loading the portafilter that way. Seems as I couldn't find any other cause. I did it to save having scales which would accurately weigh grinds plus portafilter. I have some now. What seemed to be happening doing it on an SGP was that the grinds fell a lot further into the canister than they would into a portafilter which compressed them more. Then inverting into the portafilter compressed them yet again. Net effect seemed to mess up tamping. I had problems with channelling holes in the pucks something I have never had before.

There could be other reasons. I was using a cannister that would also fit La Spaz sized baskets so maybe more careful levelling would have helped - it tended to leave a heap in the middle of E61 sizes. Also the style of basket - IMS The Single but they are supposed to help with that. They also hold a lot more coffee on a Sage than the spec suggests.

John

-


----------



## RobW

I love the sound of the performance of this grinder from DaveCUK's review. I also love that it is a UK product. But I really dislike the styling on it. It looks far too cuddly and kitchen appliance like. Is that just me?

I may be shallow, but I wish it looked a bit more industrial so it would be more in keeping next to an espresso machine. In the end it is the quality of the grind that matters but I also love to look at my setup! I'm sure the design is probably spot on to appeal to the widest audience.

Some more angular metal feet and catch cup base would help.


----------



## jonnycooper29

Ok, stay calm everyone..


----------



## lake_m

RobW said:


> I love the sound of the performance of this grinder from DaveCUK's review. I also love that it is a UK product. But I really dislike the styling on it. It looks far too cuddly and kitchen appliance like. Is that just me?


No, it's not just you. I feel the same way about the looks.

But if it does the business I'm prepared to forgive that.


----------



## mctrials23

I don't mind the look of it myself. Yes it could be nicer but I think its like anything, some people love it and some people hate it. I'm a big fan of shiny shiny chrome coffee machines but hate chrome on most other things.

Anyway, thats great news on the grind cups. Hopefully when he says they are being airfreighted as we speak they are in the air and on their way. Could be a week or so until these are in our hands which is super exciting!


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> My main question from that video is, what is that bean container you are using Dave? The vacuum plunger looks good.


Yeah I actually love the product...rarely do I go for accessories beyond tampers, knock boxes and naked portafilters...but the Airscape is exactly what I would have designed 100%. I got glass because that's what BB sent me (it was the only sample I had). As I keep my beans in a dark place, I would actually get a glass one again. I am also hoping BB won't ask for it back...


----------



## mctrials23

I went to the manufacturers site and the shipping was more than the product so I had a quick google and BB showed up as a seller. They are out of stock at the moment but apparently a small shipment is coming soon-ish and then they should get proper stock in the new year after the manufacturer has moved warehouses.

I feel like at some point you should be forum banned Dave. You have made me spend far too much money on coffee related stuff. I think thats the only solution.


----------



## Inglorious Alf

mctrials23 said:


> I went to the manufacturers site and the shipping was more than the product so I had a quick google and BB showed up as a seller. They are out of stock at the moment but apparently a small shipment is coming soon-ish and then they should get proper stock in the new year after the manufacturer has moved warehouses.
> 
> I feel like at some point you should be forum banned Dave. You have made me spend far too much money on coffee related stuff. I think thats the only solution.


I got mine from eacoffee.co.uk last month. It's bigger than Dave's, but I'm pleased with it.


----------



## DavecUK

Inglorious Alf said:


> I got mine from eacoffee.co.uk last month. It's bigger than Dave's, but I'm pleased with it.


Don't start boasting.



mctrials23 said:


> I feel like at some point you should be forum banned Dave. You have made me spend far too much money on coffee related stuff. I think thats the only solution.


I know, I am a very bad person......


----------



## Inglorious Alf

DavecUK said:


> Don't start boasting.
> 
> I know, I am a very bad person......


Haha having seen yours I think I'd actually prefer a smaller one as I only have 250g bags of beans. I guess the good thing is we're talking about size of coffee storage, not Toad from Mario Kart.


----------



## jonnycooper29

mctrials23 said:


> I feel like at some point you should be forum banned Dave. You have made me spend far too much money on coffee related stuff. I think thats the only solution.


Damn it, he's done it again. I might order a small one from BB. I currently vac seal and freeze 250g at a time then store in a kilner jar once opened. Would the airscape really be worth the £21 extra?


----------



## lake_m

mctrials23 said:


> I feel like at some point you should be forum banned Dave. You have made me spend far too much money on coffee related stuff. I think thats the only solution.


+1

I am a lot lighter in the wallet since I read his E92 grinder review!







Not complaining though.


----------



## ajohn

jonnycooper29 said:


> Damn it, he's done it again. I might order a small one from BB. I currently vac seal and freeze 250g at a time then store in a kilner jar once opened. Would the airscape really be worth the £21 extra?


You might wait a long time to get one - I ordered mine weeks ago. Supply problems so still waiting.

John

-


----------



## Viernes

DavecUK said:


> That is the idea, but the cup is also part of the system for catching the grinds and removing the last bit of static. I tried with grinding into just a portafilter and with a portafilter + ring the result was unsatisfactory. I did this because initially I wasn't used to using the cup and inverting into the portafilter. Initially. I recommend you use the cup and then tip it into the portafilter using a portafilter ring of some kind.


What about using RDT to eliminate static and grind straight into PF?

Not a fan of using cups to feed PFs...


----------



## DavecUK

Viernes said:


> What about using RDT to eliminate static and grind straight into PF?
> 
> Not a fan of using cups to feed PFs...


I think RDT would be a very bad thing to do with the Niche and cause problems rather than solve them...I do not recommend spraying water onto beans before grinding them. I used to pour from the cup into the PF at first, but now simply stirr in the cup and then place portafilter onto cup, invert and gently shake horizontally. Once used to it, it seems the most natural thing in the world.


----------



## RobW

DavecUK said:


> I think RDT would be a very bad thing to do with the Niche and cause problems rather than solve them...I do not recommend spraying water onto beans before grinding them. I used to pour from the cup into the PF at first, but now simply stirr in the cup and then place portafilter onto cup, invert and gently shake horizontally. Once used to it, it seems the most natural thing in the world.


Would something like the Acaia portafilter dosing cup not be ideal?


----------



## DavecUK

RobW said:


> Would something like the Acaia portafilter dosing cup not be ideal?


Well I suppose if it fits on the base of the Niche...but why buy that when the Niche one is free with the grinder, will do the same job and fits the grinder....?


----------



## RobW

DavecUK said:


> Well I suppose if it fits on the base of the Niche...but why buy that when the Niche one is free with the grinder, will do the same job and fits the grinder....?


Sorry, I was more meaning why don't Niche have a cup that is shaped to nicely invert onto a portafilter like the Acaia. If it does this already I'm curious why you didn't like this approach? I'd think that was a lot easier than pouring and avoids the need for a funnel.


----------



## DavecUK

RobW said:


> Sorry, I was more meaning why don't Niche have a cup that is shaped to nicely invert onto a portafilter like the Acaia. If it does this already I'm curious why you didn't like this approach? I'd think that was a lot easier than pouring and avoids the need for a funnel.


It is easier. I didn't like it initially because I wasn't used to doing it and used to get a huge mound up one side...I persevered and perfected my technique. Now it's pretty much level when I remove the cup from the portafilter and just needs a few taps. It's my preferred method now every time and I no longer use portafilter funnels, just the Niche cup.


----------



## Amvantage

I like the idea of the niche cup, does anyone else make them? Hopefully cheaper than the acaia one!


----------



## Viernes

Amvantage said:


> I like the idea of the niche cup, does anyone else make them? Hopefully cheaper than the acaia one!


BT Espresso have something called BT Docking.


----------



## PPapa

Am I the only one who got an email from Indiegogo to confirm that I got my perk?

I think it's an automated one, but I don't see the point of harassing folk as we know the currrent status anyway.


----------



## Dylan

PPapa said:


> Am I the only one who got an email from Indiegogo to confirm that I got my perk?
> 
> I think it's an automated one, but I don't see the point of harassing folk as we know the currrent status anyway.


You must have an awfully clean inbox if you consider an email from IGG harassment


----------



## PPapa

Dylan said:


> You must have an awfully clean inbox if you consider an email from IGG harassment


Sorry, I meant that there's no point bothering Martin as we know he's not hiding and have enough confidence I don't need to involve IGG, saying I haven't received it yet.









Plenty of emails, though...


----------



## PaulL

Harrassment is a very serious principle, are you sure that's what you mean?


----------



## Headgoboomboom

DavecUK said:


> I think RDT would be a very bad thing to do with the Niche and cause problems rather than solve them...I do not recommend spraying water onto beans before grinding them. I used to pour from the cup into the PF at first, but now simply stirr in the cup and then place portafilter onto cup, invert and gently shake horizontally. Once used to it, it seems the most natural thing in the world.


I don't know why RDT would be a problem with this grinder. I currently use it on a Pharos as well as a Mazzer Mini with excellent results.

Dave, can you expound on your concerns?


----------



## PPapa

PaulL said:


> Harrassment is a very serious principle, are you sure that's what you mean?


You are taking my words too seriously!


----------



## PaulL

Not at all, we live in a world where someone will come after you and it makes us careful with language when our intentions were harmless. Nothing personal towards you.


----------



## Dylan

PaulL said:


> Harrassment is a very serious principle, are you sure that's what you mean?


Stop harassing him Paul. Jeez.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Ok. Putting thread back on track ....

With regards to the cup, @DavecUK, do you happen to know the outer diameter of it? Reason I ask is that I have a La Pavoni, 51mm basket, so most likely I'll need to get creative and make some sort of adapter to dispense into the basket. Unless the OD is less than 51mm of course


----------



## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Ok. Putting thread back on track ....
> 
> With regards to the cup, @DavecUK, do you happen to know the outer diameter of it? Reason I ask is that I have a La Pavoni, 51mm basket, so most likely I'll need to get creative and make some sort of adapter to dispense into the basket. Unless the OD is less than 51mm of course


I do know, it's unsurprisingly 58mm to fit the standard 58mm basket. I have always thought Martin should at some point design a top or range of tops for the cup and sell it as a separate accessory/'s for people who don't need the grinder (both cups and tops).









So they can make a range of sizes, 49, 51, 53 etc.. each one fits on top of the standard Niche cup. Grind as Normal into the cup, pop a top on, place portafilter on invert etc...In this way the basic cup stays the same but for people with different size portafilter baskets they buy themselves the right top. Then the cup/top can become an accessory for everyone. The tops would also double as a portafilter ring for other grind on demand etc..

The top can even be an easy drop on, doesn't need to be tight, as it's place the portafilter on and invert, so it won't fall off. It's something I never pushed hard as I am sure Niche have enough on their plate at the moment, but once the grinders are being delivered, I think Martin should get some designs made.


----------



## Dayks

DavecUK said:


> I do know, it's unsurprisingly 58mm to fit the standard 58mm basket. I have always thought Martin should at some point design a top or range of tops for the cup and sell it as a separate accessory/'s for people who don't need the grinder (both cups and tops).
> 
> View attachment 36591
> 
> 
> So they can make a range of sizes, 49, 51, 53 etc.. each one fits on top of the standard Niche cup. Grind as Normal into the cup, pop a top on, place portafilter on invert etc...In this way the basic cup stays the same but for people with different size portafilter baskets they buy themselves the right top. Then the cup/top can become an accessory for everyone. The tops would also double as a portafilter ring for other grind on demand etc..
> 
> The top can even be an easy drop on, doesn't need to be tight, as it's place the portafilter on and invert, so it won't fall off. It's something I never pushed hard as I am sure Niche have enough on their plate at the moment, but once the grinders are being delivered, I think Martin should get some designs made.


Definitely a good idea, I actually bought a portafilter funnel for my Sage for just this reason, but I imagine a custom one that fits on the end of the grind cup would work much better.


----------



## J_Fo

Apparently it takes around a month for something to be air freighted from China so hopefully end of October/start of November... Fingers crossed!!


----------



## ChrisBy

Must be rather slow planes they're having there then...


----------



## J_Fo

ChrisBy said:


> Must be rather slow planes they're having there then...


Unfortunately it's not that simple..!


----------



## lake_m

I think the next update will be very telling on that front.


----------



## Stevebee

Jon_Foster said:


> Apparently it takes around a month for something to be air freighted from China so hopefully end of October/start of November... Fingers crossed!!


I knew about the slow boat to China but didn't realise it affected planes coming the other way.


----------



## Gatty

Oh gosh! I'd assumed a very different speed of airfreight so had been thinking some grinders might be out in the wild by the end of next week or the week after. Hopefully the manufacturer has got the cups right this time!


----------



## Jony

lake_m said:


> I think the next update will be very telling on that front.


Do you ever have a lie in?haha


----------



## lake_m

Jony said:


> Do you ever have a lie in?haha


Not whilst I'm on rota on a North Sea Oil Installation. It's around the clock 24/7! haha.


----------



## mctrials23

Jon_Foster said:


> Unfortunately it's not that simple..!


In what way, i'm genuinely interested as I don't know much about these things?

From my basic understanding, Air Freight from China takes up to a week but can be much quicker. You then have to clear customs this end and have the item delivered to its destination. Basically I can't see why this would take much more than a week and a half, perhaps 2.


----------



## DavecUK

If the aeroplane went faster the more posts you guys make about it, they will probably be arriving tomorrow


----------



## J_Fo

@DavecUK

















I know a couple of people who have stuff made and shipped from China & that's just how long it usually takes, I'm not really sure why but I think customs out of China is a bit of a nightmare...

Just thought I'd mention it, would love it if I'm totally wrong & we get them sooner though!

Let's wait & see!


----------



## DavecUK

It's usually around 12 days if air shipped


----------



## mctrials23

If all goes to plan we might get these around mid October I guess.


----------



## DavecUK

mctrials23 said:


> If all goes to plan we might get these around mid October I guess.


Could, or could be sooner....not that I have any inside information at all.


----------



## jonnycooper29

DavecUK said:


> Could, or could be sooner....not that I have any inside information at all.


You're such a tease


----------



## lune

Many thanks for all the information/opinions in this thread, it's helped me push the button on my contribution.

Will now try my hardest to forget about it and allow it to be a lovely surprise when it lands


----------



## Kyle T

Had to make a post as I was getting worried at how far this topic had slipped down the forum


----------



## Inglorious Alf

I know there is a rule about people not posting their order numbers or where they appear on someone's chronological spreadsheet of backers but maybe we should make an exception to that rule if no one posts for a minimum of two hours to ensure this thread stays near the top and all 500 people who have commented on it get a notification alerting them to such critical information.


----------



## Rscut

We could discuss what we are using until our Niche arrives? I sold my Eureka Zenith last month, so I am having to use nespresso pods and use my Oscar 2 as a milk foamer! Tried to order some preground coffee from Rave, but the Oscar said no!


----------



## jonnycooper29

Aergrind does the job with my remaining mystery 8 for now! Struggles with the lighter roasts, so I'm v excited about the next step up in my coffee grinding adventure!


----------



## Inglorious Alf

I sold my Vario last month so have reduced coffee consumption as visiting my local coffee shop daily! (FED, Bristol, really good coffee roasted by Extract). I have asked them to grind me a bag or two for the French press but mostly I'm just waiting impatiently for my Niche and running hot water through my Rocket every few days in desperation.


----------



## Teejay

jonnycooper29 said:


> Aergrind does the job with my remaining mystery 8 for now! Struggles with the lighter roasts, so I'm v excited about the next step up in my coffee grinding adventure!


This is exactly what I'm doing. When the niche arrives the aergrind will be moving to my camper


----------



## jonnycooper29

Inglorious Alf said:


> I sold my Vario last month so have reduced coffee consumption as visiting my local coffee shop daily! (FED, Bristol, really good coffee roasted by Extract). I have asked them to grind me a bag or two for the French press but mostly I'm just waiting impatiently for my Niche and running hot water through my Rocket every few days in desperation.


I recently moved to Bristol, so where abouts is FED? I'm living just north of Filton as i started my new job at airbus 3 weeks ago!


----------



## Inglorious Alf

Oh nice, I work in Stoke Gifford so we're very close. FED is at the top of Gloucester Road (#303 I think) near Boston Tea Party, so it's definitely your closest if you're living in the north.


----------



## hifimacianer

Hi, I just read several dozen pages of this thread, but didn't found an answer to my question regarding the grind quality for Filter/Drip and French Press, that need low amounts of fines.

I actually use a Helor 101 (similar to commandante and Feldgrind), that is very good for filter.

But since I want to have a electric grinder for convenience, there is not much choice. The Mahlkönig Vario Home with steel burrs seems to be good for coarse grinding, but that was ist mostly in this Price range.

So how does the Niche perform here?


----------



## MWJB

hifimacianer said:


> Hi, I just read several dozen pages of this thread, but didn't found an answer to my question regarding the grind quality for Filter/Drip and French Press, that need low amounts of fines.
> 
> I actually use a Helor 101 (similar to commandante and Feldgrind), that is very good for filter.
> 
> But since I want to have a electric grinder for convenience, there is not much choice. The Mahlkönig Vario Home with steel burrs seems to be good for coarse grinding, but that was ist mostly in this Price range.
> 
> So how does the Niche perform here?


Normally.

The fact that you are grinding coarser than espresso, for drip, means less particles in the smaller range anyway.


----------



## hifimacianer

MWJB said:


> Normally.
> 
> The fact that you are grinding coarser than espresso, for drip, means less particles in the smaller range anyway.


But I'm talking about ultra fines that clog the filter and let the brewing time increase drastically.

The mentioned handgrinders handle this very good, but there are not many electric grinders that are equally good.


----------



## MWJB

hifimacianer said:


> But I'm talking about ultra fines that clog the filter and let the brewing time increase drastically.
> 
> The mentioned handgrinders handle this very good, but there are not many electric grinders that are equally good.


We sifted the Niche rounds when I made some V60s with it, it's certainly comparable to Lido E etc. (It's in Dave's report, off top of my head I think it was 76% between 400 & 1200 Kruve for a ~20% extraction, 50% between would be 'good enough' for 1 mug brews.)

With any grinder, setting coarser reduces fines (all fines are ultra fine, micro fine - they're the fringes of the grind distribution). The idea that there are grinders that make some weird kind of fines that stall brews is not actually a known thing. Maybe there are some really badly made, super cheap grinders that don't function to typical standards, but even Hario, Porlex, Rhino, De Longhi KG79 work OK in this respect, so I'd wonder what kind of grinder you'd be comparing to?

Brews choke, go coarser/pour less aggressively & space out the pour more if needed.


----------



## hifimacianer

Thank you for your impressions.

Interestingly, they are the opposite of the opinions in a german coffee forum.

Most users there say, that there are just a few electric grinders in the up-to 500€ range (Mahlkönig/Baratza Vario with steel-burrs, Baratza Virtuoso), and just handgrinders like Commandante, Helor, Feldgrind, Lido suitable for filter/drip and french press.

They also did tasting comparisons to prove their claim, and tested the grind distribution (amount of fines, unimodal distribution etc.)

I'm not an expert, but since many manufacturers of grinders have special grinders for Filter or at least deticated burrs that could be used instead of the AP (all purpose) burrs, I tend to believe that they are correct with their claims. And from a technical perspective this also makes sense, because finer parts of the grind are overextracting faster (bitter taste), so it would be favorable to have less finer parts in the distribution of the grind.


----------



## 4085

hifimacianer said:


> Thank you for your impressions.
> 
> Interestingly, they are the opposite of the opinions in a german coffee forum.
> 
> Most users there say, that there are just a few electric grinders in the up-to 500€ range (Mahlkönig/Baratza Vario with steel-burrs, Baratza Virtuoso), and just handgrinders like Commandante, Helor, Feldgrind, Lido suitable for filter/drip and french press.
> 
> They also did tasting comparisons to prove their claim, and tested the grind distribution (amount of fines, unimodal distribution etc.)
> 
> I'm not an expert, but since many manufacturers of grinders have special grinders for Filter or at least deticated burrs that could be used instead of the AP (all purpose) burrs, I tend to believe that they are correct with their claims. And from a technical perspective this also makes sense, because finer parts of the grind are overextracting faster (bitter taste), so it would be favorable to have less finer parts in the distribution of the grind.


You are wrong........how many people on the German forum have had a Niche in their hands to test? how many have the knowledge of MWJB on brewed coffee? As a rule of thumb, I would agree with you, however, on this occasion, I do not!


----------



## PPapa

hifimacianer said:


> I'm not an expert, but since many manufacturers of grinders have special grinders for Filter or at least deticated burrs that could be used instead of the AP (all purpose) burrs, I tend to believe that they are correct with their claims. And from a technical perspective this also makes sense, because finer parts of the grind are overextracting faster (bitter taste), so it would be favorable to have less finer parts in the distribution of the grind.


£1000+ iPhones, sport cars, SUVs... do people need them? Want, that's for sure! Marketing is a strong concept. I don't particularly like the marketing approach by Niche, but oh well.

In regards to all purpose grinders, most of them are retail bag grinders rather than dedicated brew grinders. Different ergonomics, low-ish retention, easy to adjust grind. It's not all about RPMs and burrs. Happy to be proven wrong, of course!


----------



## hifimacianer

dfk41 said:


> You are wrong........how many people on the German forum have had a Niche in their hands to test? how many have the knowledge of MWJB on brewed coffee? As a rule of thumb, I would agree with you, however, on this occasion, I do not!


Of course they don't have any experience with the Niche grinder. That's not the point, and it was not my intention to rave against the Niche grinder. On the contrary, I am highly interested, but just wanted to know how the experiences regarding filter grinds are. (in relation to the statement of the users in the german forum, that there are not many electric grinders suitable for this purpose).


----------



## hifimacianer

PPapa said:


> £1000+ iPhones, sport cars, SUVs... do people need them? Want, that's for sure!


What's better is the enemy of what's good. And if better solutions exist for the same price, why shouldn't we consider them?

There are filter burrs for the Sette available, that are not that expensive. And the filter steel burrs for the Vario also don't cost that much.

So it can't be just marketing.



> In regards to all purpose grinders, most of them are retail bag grinders rather than dedicated brew grinders. Different ergonomics, low-ish retention, easy to adjust grind. It's not all about RPMs and burrs. Happy to be proven wrong, of course!


I wasn't talking about these big retail grinders.

Many grinders for the home use have all purpose burrs (Eureka, Baratza, Mahlkönig etc.), but you can either get special Filter burrs for these grinders, or they even have deticated versions for filter/brew in their lineup.


----------



## MWJB

hifimacianer said:


> Thank you for your impressions.
> 
> Interestingly, they are the opposite of the opinions in a german coffee forum.
> 
> Most users there say, that there are just a few electric grinders in the up-to 500€ range (Mahlkönig/Baratza Vario with steel-burrs, Baratza Virtuoso), and just handgrinders like Commandante, Helor, Feldgrind, Lido suitable for filter/drip and french press.
> 
> They also did tasting comparisons to prove their claim, and tested the grind distribution (amount of fines, unimodal distribution etc.)
> 
> I'm not an expert, but since many manufacturers of grinders have special grinders for Filter or at least deticated burrs that could be used instead of the AP (all purpose) burrs, I tend to believe that they are correct with their claims. And from a technical perspective this also makes sense, because finer parts of the grind are overextracting faster (bitter taste), so it would be favorable to have less finer parts in the distribution of the grind.


My impressions come from over 500 logged, timed & measured drip brews, with at least some broad sifting analysis of the grinder concerned.

It would require LPA to determine modality, sifting pretty much always shows a unimodal distribution. Drip might drop into bi-modal at the very finer end when it overlaps with coarse espresso, but in the more normal range 600-900um average, it's most likely uni-modal whatever the grinder.

I have used the 'worst' grinders that are known to work for brewed, drip filter coffee, including 2 blade grinders, this clogging doesn't happen unless you make it happen (too fine a grind, too aggressive a pour, unusually wide flat bed brewer used for a different purpose to that intended) .

If you could provide links to this research that would be appreciated, as would a definition of "fines" that is universally understood & agreed.

Most of the hand grinders used for filter started out with espresso burrs, some still use them.

As you can adjust the rate at which you pour the water in a manual drip brew, you can extract a given dose & ratio similarly for a wide range of grinds. Drip is perhaps the least fussy brew method to make a representative cup. Of course, you can throw whatever you deem desirable at it to achieve 'perfect for you cups'.

Practical & tangible benefits for any grinder are: fast grinding, as little coffee as possible left in it after each dose.


----------



## ajohn

hifimacianer said:


> Thank you for your impressions.
> 
> Interestingly, they are the opposite of the opinions in a german coffee forum.
> 
> Most users there say, that there are just a few electric grinders in the up-to 500€ range (Mahlkönig/Baratza Vario with steel-burrs, Baratza Virtuoso), and just handgrinders like Commandante, Helor, Feldgrind, Lido suitable for filter/drip and french press.
> 
> They also did tasting comparisons to prove their claim, and tested the grind distribution (amount of fines, unimodal distribution etc.)
> 
> I'm not an expert, but since many manufacturers of grinders have special grinders for Filter or at least deticated burrs that could be used instead of the AP (all purpose) burrs, I tend to believe that they are correct with their claims. And from a technical perspective this also makes sense, because finer parts of the grind are overextracting faster (bitter taste), so it would be favorable to have less finer parts in the distribution of the grind.


It's possible to make any method of brewing as complex as people like. One big problem is if this extra complexity actually adds anything. Taste tests can only be subjective and have the problem that changes in how the coffee is brewed will also change taste so even if A differs obviously from B a change to how it's brewed may make A = B. Blind tasting makes more sense but grinders can produce a taste that differs due to how long it's been since it was last used and even how many kg has been through it but I see that *probably *relating more to flat rather than conical burrs when they are used for an espresso machine. There are other variables but particle sizes are very probably changing.

Personally I feel that fines are definable. I've had an excess of them when a grinder decided to act up. Total change to what I would call a muddy taste / little clarity in any respect. Some grinds are being heavily over extracted too many of them and taste goes to pot.







People say that coffee needs an odd mix of grind particle sizes. It would be interesting to see what the results were if all particles were the same size - impossible in practice. People can buy sieves and even follow recipes for using them - so much from sieve A and B etc.

My feeling going on the grinders I have used is that Niche will produce more stable results than what many use due to it using conical burrs. Things are hopefully also more accurately located than many other grinders.







Have to wait and see. The pundits also reckon that there will be a taste change from flats. Some put that down to a change in particle size distribution even shape in one case.

John

-


----------



## Inglorious Alf

Who's had confirmation of their Niche being shipped then?!


----------



## jonnycooper29

Inglorious Alf said:


> Who's had confirmation of their Niche being shipped then?!


It seems too good to be true?!?!


----------



## PPapa

Inglorious Alf said:


> Who's had confirmation of their Niche being shipped then?!


Exciting! Did anyone get any notifications?

My DPD app is quiet, so it won't be in tomorrow.

I realised I got 3 bags at home, 500g of LSOL and 3 bag Dog & Hat subscription in the post. Can't be happier being overstocked!


----------



## Banjoman

Woo hoo!!! I'm just left wondering how many they've shipped so far









... time to order some more beans!


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Woop woop!!

Cant wait to receive mine. Getting excited now!


----------



## J_Fo

Sweeeeeet


----------



## Jony

Oh I am so shafted for not ordering one at the the time.


----------



## Paul K

Jony said:


> Oh I am so shafted for not ordering one at the the time.


Still time to get in before the price creeps up


----------



## LukeT

Ooooh.

Now comes the point I have to tell management I've bought a new coffee grinder...

Shit!


----------



## Jony

It's not about the money. I should of ordered October but only had white left I want Black November is a while off, I am holding out for the non wanters.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Exciting !!!!


----------



## slamm

Woop woop! grind cups are in! Can't wait!


----------



## Deejaysuave

It's happening!


----------



## matomoto

Yeahhh!!









Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Paul K

Jony said:


> It's not about the money. I should of ordered October but only had white left I want Black November is a while off, I am holding out for the non wanters.


After reading 1600 odd posts in one thread I decided to back with the perk of a black grinder.

Based on @DavecUK detailed and thorough testing and review I didn't want to miss the opportunity of a steal. So ordered yesterday for a November delivery, if its late then thats fine.

Reading and looking over all the stuff that's been posted it reminded me of a UK Engineer Lawrence A Waldron who developed a Fly Tying vice. Any fly fishermen and fly tyers on the forum will know who I am talking about. He develop and built his own vice the LAW tying vice. It was remarkable and well sought after in that community but at £410 for something that holds a fishing hook down to a size 32 was nothing short of genius.

I purchased one and had for a good number of years before deciding to sell it for more than I paid for it. They are now like hens teeth and if you do get one your talking upward of at least £800. Lawrence doesn't make them any more as he was a one man outfit and couldn't keep up with the demand. So he sold part of his design to Snowbee UK who now make the Snowbee Waldron. Not a patch on the original I hasten to add, but as previously stated the depth of review Dave went into reminded me of Lawrence and what Martin and the team at Niche have done and brought to the market is nothing short of genius.

Looking forward to the Super Early Birds comments and reviews.

Thanks to all who contributed to the 1600 comments, questions, and to @DavecUK for the in depth review.


----------



## ChrisBy

Oh, the LAW vice... never actually had one, but yes, it was/is famous for its quality. Makes me reminisce about days before having children with enough spare time to spend fly tying and fishing...

Anyway, current hobby is about to get much more enjoyable. Doubt that I will miss palm-smacking, brushing and doser-thwacking the Super Jolly.!


----------



## Paul K

ChrisBy said:


> Oh, the LAW vice... never actually had one, but yes, it was/is famous for its quality. Makes me reminisce about days before having children with enough spare time to spend fly tying and fishing...
> 
> Anyway, current hobby is about to get much more enjoyable. Doubt that I will miss palm-smacking, brushing and doser-thwacking the Super Jolly.!


My man!

Ditto all the way my friend. An honour to own one, but as life moves on, I couldn't dedicate the time to tying and fishing. I think the crunch came with a 7 day trip to the Czech Rep and that put the nail in the coffin.

It was not a case of how many fish is in this pool, but how many can I pull out! The density of wild fish was unbelievable. If you were catching less than 25 a day the problem lay in your ability to catch fish. After returning from that trip and spending a full day on my private water and fishing the rivers in Scotland only to blank or catch a few fish was soul destroying. Hence I opted for the finer things in life.

Not that buying beans, grinding, and drinking coffee is any less difficult, because your always chasing that perfect cup of Joe the same way you would chase a 3lb Grayling, 5lb wild brown, or a 15lb wild Salmon, the same concept applies. When innovation by a home grown UK designer and engineer comes on to the market like the Niche that's when faith in the brittish heritage of invention is restored.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

LukeT said:


> Ooooh.
> 
> Now comes the point I have to tell management I've bought a new coffee grinder...
> 
> Shit!


Yep! Me too!


----------



## Chockymonster

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Yep! Me too!


Surely you told management in November last year and she's forgotten, I know mine had until I reminded her it was coming!


----------



## LukeT

Chockymonster said:


> Surely you told management in November last year and she's forgotten, I know mine had until I reminded her it was coming!


Of course! My memory never has been much good.

Reckon I just make it into that batch of 50 up there...


----------



## Stanic

Chockymonster said:


> Surely you told management in November last year and she's forgotten, I know mine had until I reminded her it was coming!


the good old weak memory of the HQ


----------



## lake_m

I *think* I *may* have dropped it into the conversation a few months ago. Soon find out hehe.


----------



## slamm

Just heard back from Niche should be getting mine Tuesday at the earliest delivered by DPD.. as backer #2 expecting to be in the first batch.. getting just a bit excited now!


----------



## Jony

slamm said:


> Just heard back from Niche should be getting mine Tuesday at the earliest delivered by DPD.. as backer #2 expecting to be in the first batch.. getting just a bit excited now!


I am excited for you. HAHA


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Chockymonster said:


> Surely you told management in November last year and she's forgotten, I know mine had until I reminded her it was coming!


Nope. I thought I had plenty of time to break the news to her and then kept putting it off...

I find it's far easier to seek forgiveness than to ask permission


----------



## Dayks

slamm said:


> Just heard back from Niche should be getting mine Tuesday at the earliest delivered by DPD.. as backer #2 expecting to be in the first batch.. getting just a bit excited now!


Great, I'm number 4 so should be in the first batch too.


----------



## thebookfreak58

Did you guys get tracking numbers or anything? Wondering how it works for us O/S.


----------



## J_Fo

Anyone know if the first batch sent is the first batch of 500 mentioned before or just the first batch posted?


----------



## 4085

Those who backed it early, by rights, ought to receive them earlier than those who did not. if I was in charge, I would make anyone after 25 wait a week longer......


----------



## J_Fo

dfk41 said:


> Those who backed it early, by rights, ought to receive them earlier than those who did not. if I was in charge, I would make anyone after 25 wait a week longer......


Good job it's someone less petty running the company


----------



## Gatty

Can't remember now how many they sold but think the first batch of deliveries sent out yesterday will be substantially smaller than 500, as that would have been shipping pretty much all orders all at once. Only about 45 boxes in the photo they've used. Hopefully lots of batches going out early next week though. Their Instagram post says to keep an eye out for a box in the post over the next few weeks so I think it'll be a few more days for most of us yet! Very jealous of the super early backers right now!


----------



## 4085

Jon_Foster said:


> Good job it's someone less petty running the company


Why should those who pontificated get the same delivery date. If you buy ticket for a concert for example, should you expect to buy front row tickets still, several days after they went on sale?


----------



## wilton

dfk41 said:


> Why should those who pontificated get the same delivery date. If you buy ticket for a concert for example, should you expect to buy front row tickets still, several days after they went on sale?


I can't tell if you're serious... but I bought after the first level and they said September delivery, which it looks like they'll narrowly miss anyway. I'm not that fussed, but I would be if they kept my grinder sitting at their base for a week (or however long is necessary to make you feel special).


----------



## J_Fo

Gatty said:


> Can't remember now how many they sold but think the first batch of deliveries sent out yesterday will be substantially smaller than 500, as that would have been shipping pretty much all orders all at once. Only about 45 boxes in the photo they've used. Hopefully lots of batches going out early next week though. Their Instagram post says to keep an eye out for a box in the post over the next few weeks so I think it'll be a few more days for most of us yet! Very jealous of the super early backers right now!


Nice one, can't wait, not long now!!


----------



## 4085

wilton said:


> I can't tell if you're serious... but I bought after the first level and they said September delivery, which it looks like they'll narrowly miss anyway. I'm not that fussed, but I would be if they kept my grinder sitting at their base for a week (or however long is necessary to make you feel special).


I must have missed the ! off again.....and again.....!


----------



## PaulL

Maybe you're missing the point dfk, to quote numerous reality shows if those who receive are those who would be devastated if they're not in the first batch or the best day of their lives if they are, perhaps this thread can take a bit less of the "right, who threw that first stone" euphoria and we can all relax a bit









I'm looking forward to mine of course but when it arrives it arrives...


----------



## wilton

Eh, fair enough. Think I'm getting caught up in the Niche hysteria. And also letting off steam at you (dfk41) that I've built up over Davec's "I don't know why you're all so keen to get this grinder"-type posts.

!


----------



## 4085

Hey, nothing wrong with dishing a little out as long as you can take it, and everyone knows that you can say anything you want about me.....water off a ducks back......hysteria and forums or social media in general, now theres a thing! When you get older, you learn to wait.....I am sure the arrival of the Niche is going to change some peoples lives......me....unlikely to change anything but it might add a bit.....but, being arrogant and probably as bad a person as so many think, and being in the first batch do I care.....LOL


----------



## DavecUK

I recommend getting a nice comfy chair, place it by the letter box, grab binoculars and a coffee, wedge the slot open sit down and wait.


----------



## 4085

DavecUK said:


> I recommend getting a nice comfy chair, place it by the letter box, grab binoculars and a coffee, wedge the slot open sit down and wait.


or alternately, grow up......LOL


----------



## Choronzon

I congratulate them on finally completing the kickstarter. I agree with their decision to wait for the grind cups, first impressions are everything and there would have been 1 star reviews saying it didn't come with a grind cup. I personally wish they would relax the mystery now though, give us some idea of how many they are planning on sending per day.

I hope they don't put an artificial halt on the later orders, I would find it petty and disrespectful to their customers and would be surprised so am 99% sure they won't. Earlier backers paid less than later ones, they should be prioritised as well in terms of postage order but nothing beyond that.

I can wait another month, but like I say would appreciate some demystification at this point. I can see why they were vague before, but now everything is in their hands surely they can give some more details. Saying all that, the length of this post doesn't really reflect me being annoyed. In a few weeks nobody will care. I suppose they might be trying to avoid getting one star reviews saying, they promised it to me on Tuesday but it came Wednesday..


----------



## Dylan

I haven't had any IGG/KS project that have said anything more than "You'll get a delivery notification when it's on the way" - I guess you learn with these things to just forget about exact dates and be pleasantly surprised when you get a delivery notification.


----------



## cold war kid

Choronzon said:


> I hope they don't put an artificial halt on the later orders, I would find it petty and disrespectful to their customers and would be surprised so am 99% sure they won't. Earlier backers paid less than later ones, they should be prioritised as well in terms of postage order but nothing beyond that.


I'm sure they won't, why would they? I've no idea how many will be in the first batch, but chances are they'll wait until there's a large number to be collected rather than letting them go in drips and drabs as it's more efficient and there's a chance they'll get a better price from the haulier that way.


----------



## richwade80

cold war kid said:


> I'm sure they won't, why would they? I've no idea how many will be in the first batch, but chances are they'll wait until there's a large number to be collected rather than letting them go in drips and drabs as it's more efficient and there's a chance they'll get a better price from the haulier that way.


Excerpt from their Twitter comments;

nichecoffee - We are now shipping product! Keep an eye out for a large cardboard box in the post over the next few weeks! What a journey it's been over the last year (and then some). Not long now guys!

robsinstaviews - Sounds good, how many are you shipping please?

nichecoffee - @Robsinstaviews as many as we can!


----------



## PineappleMonkey

I am not sure if this will be of any help but my contribution number is 525 and my order has shipped. I refuse to grow up and will be waiting with cracked door open


----------



## Inglorious Alf

PineappleMonkey said:


> I am not sure if this will be of any help but my contribution number is 525 and my order has shipped. I refuse to grow up and will be waiting with cracked door open


Bragger!


----------



## PPapa

Dylan said:


> I haven't had any IGG/KS project that have said anything more than "You'll get a delivery notification when it's on the way" - I guess you learn with these things to just forget about exact dates and be pleasantly surprised when you get a delivery notification.


If they are still shipping via DPD, it should snow up on the DPD app. Mine is quiet even though I did back it up earlyish.


----------



## PineappleMonkey

Inglorious Alf said:


> Bragger!


Make sure to smash that like and subscribe button if you like what you see! We got tons more content coming out!









(Totally these are jokes, but I've waited now over a year now so consider me excited!)


----------



## wilton

dfk41 said:


> When you get older, you learn to wait.....


Thanks for the tip, granddad!


----------



## wilton

Choronzon said:


> I can wait another month, but like I say would appreciate some demystification at this point. I can see why they were vague before, but now everything is in their hands surely they can give some more details. Saying all that, the length of this post doesn't really reflect me being annoyed. In a few weeks nobody will care. I suppose they might be trying to avoid getting one star reviews saying, they promised it to me on Tuesday but it came Wednesday..


I completely agree. People are impatiently looking forward to receiving their grinders, and I don't see what they have to lose by saying how many they have sent and when they're expected to arrive.

They were never obliged to give any updates at all - they could have just left everyone wondering what was happening, and I think they've actually been pretty good, but why aggravate people by withholding the information that they do have?

This is what I find somewhat irritating about the posts mocking people for wondering aloud what's going on. People are allowed to be a bit impatient when they're waiting for something, and if I were Niche I would be fine with making the small effort to keep my customers/backers that little bit happier.


----------



## Dayks

PineappleMonkey said:


> I am not sure if this will be of any help but my contribution number is 525 and my order has shipped. I refuse to grow up and will be waiting with cracked door open


Did you get a confirmation email or did you ask niche?


----------



## PineappleMonkey

If you go on Indiegogo's site --> Contributions. It will say there if yours is processed and fulfilled.


----------



## Dayks

PineappleMonkey said:


> If you go on Indiegogo's site --> Contributions. It will say there if yours is processed and fulfilled.


I'd guess mine isn't in the first batch then, mine says contribution locked.


----------



## jonnycooper29

Dayks said:


> I'd guess mine isn't in the first batch then, mine says contribution locked.


Mine still says contribution placed


----------



## Jony

Not to worry haha


----------



## Inglorious Alf

I've been hitting F5 repeatedly for hours now but it still only says Contribution Locked


----------



## jonnycooper29

Inglorious Alf said:


> I've been hitting F5 repeatedly for hours now but it still only says Contribution Locked


I imagine this is what my working week will consist of next week


----------



## Rhys

Mine says contribution locked and I'm number 416.. I won't be home so when it finally arrives I'll have a red card (or it'll be dumped in a wheeley bin which is where I found my LSOL







)


----------



## Dayks

Rhys said:


> Mine says contribution locked and I'm number 416.. I won't be home so when it finally arrives I'll have a red card (or it'll be dumped in a wheeley bin which is where I found my LSOL
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


That's better than 'hidden' behind the garden wall (about 2ft high), not happened with anything coffee related yet but has happened with other things a couple of times.


----------



## PPapa

Am I banned on this thread/forum or people are really so excited? 

It's supposedly DPD that's delivering them, unless this email from June 6th is no longer correct?


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

My contribution is locked also.

DPD are delivering them yes.


----------



## LukeT

Mine says contribution locked too. It also puts me at number 301. I thought I was in the first 50 but maybe mistaken. Perhaps I have a stay of execution before seeking forgiveness for my frivolous purchase...


----------



## Choronzon

@LukeT contribution ID has nothing to do with your order in the queue. There was a spreadsheet a while ago but you are probably 1st 50 if you think so.


----------



## Banjoman

Here's that very helpful list again ...



Stevebee said:


> I'll give google docs a go. All from the Niche site. £25 not included, Private are. Seq (last column) is the place in queue.
> 
> First time I've tried this so apologies if it can't be seen!
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1mKUOfiaiDw_15SfnsdCNUK_vDTf40gO4FrroVj4Jgtw/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Paul K

Banjoman said:


> Here's that very helpful list again ...


You may need to re-look at the list, I spotted quite a few £25 backers


----------



## 4085

Paul K said:


> You may need to re-look at the list, I spotted quite a few £25 backers


I think that is for those who upgraded to black....and had pledged originally. I am at 7 & 11 and 220 for the paint


----------



## Paul K

dfk41 said:


> I think that is for those who upgraded to black....and had pledged originally. I am at 7 & 11 and 220 for the paint


Gotcha


----------



## Beeroclock

I was in the first 60 odd orders but "upgraded" to black. My contribution is locked - no idea when I will receive mine...


----------



## jaffro

I was as close to the original backers as l could be (after the site went down) and no email regarding delivery for me







guess I have a slightly longer wait ahead! (didn't back black, original white)


----------



## thebookfreak58

Might also have to do with the plug type. eg. I ordered a black Niche AUS plug and it has shipped


----------



## Headgoboomboom

#414...Fulfilled!!


----------



## slamm

Planning ahead a bit as this could be just a few days away now for some of us.. and wondering about seasoning the burrs. Was thinking perhaps a few bags of supermarket beans should do it as I dont think I will be able to get hold of stales.. @DavecUK any thoughts?


----------



## joey24dirt

Jony said:


> I am excited for you. HAHA


I'm hopeful for him (DPD scum bags )


----------



## Jony

Well they might get a Biscuit.haha


----------



## DavecUK

slamm said:


> Planning ahead a bit as this could be just a few days away now for some of us.. and wondering about seasoning the burrs. Was thinking perhaps a few bags of supermarket beans should do it as I dont think I will be able to get hold of stales.. @DavecUK any thoughts?


I wouldn't bother, just use it. It continues to improve for 15Kg or so. However, it's good enough straight out of the box, burrs are well finished.


----------



## slamm

DavecUK said:


> I wouldn't bother, just use it. It continues to improve for 15Kg or so. However, it's good enough straight out of the box, burrs are well finished.


Good to know, thanks. I guess the main benefit of seasoning would be perhaps the setting would be consistent so you wouldn't need to slowly adjust finer. For me 15kg would take some time so sounds like its going to be a very gradual process and probably hardly noticeable until a few months down the line.


----------



## DavecUK

slamm said:


> Good to know, thanks. I guess the main benefit of seasoning would be perhaps the setting would be consistent so you wouldn't need to slowly adjust finer. For me 15kg would take some time so sounds like its going to be a very gradual process and probably hardly noticeable until a few months down the line.


It is and it's hardly noticeable as you say...it works great right out of the box.


----------



## cloughy

From Niche instagram this morning


----------



## Rhys

cloughy said:


> From Niche instagram this morning


Nice. I wonder if they do spare ones.. Might be lending this to my sister and those cups would go lovely with the EK.


----------



## Jony

LENDING I want it!! ha


----------



## Amvantage

cloughy said:


> From Niche instagram this morning


I wonder if anyone will have an unwanted cup they would sell? I'm looking for an alternative but they cost the earth.


----------



## ashcroc

Rhys said:


> Nice. I wonder if they do spare ones.. Might be lending this to my sister and those cups would go lovely with the EK.


Been thinking one of those would work well with my mignon for a while now.


----------



## Zagato

Amvantage said:


> I wonder if anyone will have an unwanted cup they would sell? I'm looking for an alternative but they cost the earth.


Something like this?

https://www.avxcafe.hu/avxcafe/eshop/8-1-Barista-eszkozok/190-2-Vegyes-kiegeszitok/5/2268-AVX-Blind-Shaker-Rogosodes-mentesito

Just under £20


----------



## Amvantage

Looks good, have you spotted it anywhere with details in English?



Zagato said:


> Something like this?
> 
> https://www.avxcafe.hu/avxcafe/eshop/8-1-Barista-eszkozok/190-2-Vegyes-kiegeszitok/5/2268-AVX-Blind-Shaker-Rogosodes-mentesito
> 
> Just under £20


----------



## Zagato

No, just Google translate. I found this website probably from a link in some thread here and was planning to get this and some small airtight containers as bean cellars, but then I ordered the Niche and have held off.


----------



## cotag

It is the English AVX site: https://www.avxcafe.com/AVX-Blind-Coffee-Shaker-d299.htm. Not much more detail though. Maybe you should ask them for specs via e-mail.


----------



## cotag

cloughy said:


> From Niche instagram this morning


Now it would be great to have it in 51,5 mm for my La Pavoni... If anyone finds something suitable dont hesitate to share.


----------



## slamm

cotag said:


> Now it would be great to have it in 51,5 mm for my La Pavoni... If anyone finds something suitable dont hesitate to share.


I'm in the same boat, Niche told me grind cups of other sizes are something they will work on in the future.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Time for me to upgrade my machine me thinks to a machine with a 58mm PF !


----------



## 4085

Just out of interest, have any Monolith owners bought a Niche? It would be interesting to compare the two. Will the bigger burrs shine through? Is life with the Monolith as good as people say? Is it also neary zero retention. So many questions to answer!


----------



## Snakehips

dfk41 said:


> Just out of interest, have any Monolith owners bought a Niche? It would be interesting to compare the two. Will the bigger burrs shine through? Is life with the Monolith as good as people say? Is it also neary zero retention. So many questions to answer!


I have not bought a Niche but as I have stated elsewhere, if I were not already a very satisfied owner of a Monolith Conical, I would definitely be all over it.

So, as such, I will not be in a position to compare the two.

I have however long since stopped checking retention as it soon became obvious that it was, in my opinion at least, totally insignificant. Whether it is as good as that achieved with the high-tech materials used on the Niche, maybe not.

I do know that when I last cleaned the Monolith after weeks of continued use I had 1.06g of total retained grounds in the grind chamber.

If anybody is at all interested in more facts, figures and thoughts then maybe read post#105 and post #111 that I made in the Monolith Owners thread.


----------



## 4085

In fairness to both grinders, I actually hope nobody tries to compare them. They are what they are, and at opposite ends of the scale


----------



## coffeechap

Yep one looks amazing and one looks like a ken wood food mixer


----------



## cold war kid

I've never seen a Monolith in the flesh, but in pictures it looks terrible, like somebody knocked it up in their garage. Having said that though, the Niche doesn't really do it for me neither, but that's just me. I can't think of a single electric grinder that I find aesthetically pleasing off the top of my head.

That's hardly the point though I suppose. Especially not at the Niche's price point.


----------



## Rhys

cold war kid said:


> I've never seen a Monolith in the flesh, but in pictures it looks terrible, like somebody knocked it up in their garage. Having said that though, the Niche doesn't really do it for me neither, but that's just me. I can't think of a single electric grinder that I find aesthetically pleasing off the top of my head.
> 
> That's hardly the point though I suppose. Especially not at the Niche's price point.


I saw the Monoliths at the Rave day, and I wasn't interested in them as I preferred the look of the Veralabs and Titus that were there. I didn't even bother trying them. Guess I can't comment on how they perform due to this, but plenty of folks are happy with them. Yeah, the Niche does look like it belongs in a kitchen, but that's the point isn't it? It's got the burrs of a grinder that belongs in a commercial environment, but wrapped up to live in a home. it's not meant to plough through several kilos a day. I do think the Versalabs/Titus are aesthetically pleasing, but you have to have a brief moment of insanity to buy one.. especially at that price point.










For the quarter of the price I paid for the M3, the Niche hopefully will punch above its weight. It'll be interesting to try them side by side (even though one is a hybrid).


----------



## PineappleMonkey

I will happily take anyones hideously disgusting transfigured monoliths off their hands if they wish btw..


----------



## coffeechap

Ito hope that the Niche delivers on the quality that has been purported, I agree that it is to be used in the kitchen and Niche have done a good job at appealing to the masses. Might but some more contentious comments up just to spark the defences though!


----------



## 4085

coffeechap said:


> Yep one looks amazing and one looks like a ken wood food mixer


Which happens to have been the biggest selling food mixer for decades, but hey ho....


----------



## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Which happens to have been the biggest selling food mixer for decades, but hey ho....


Indeed, let's hope Niche have the same success


----------



## gfunk03

Has anyone changed the colour after ordering? I ordered when the price was £425 (status is contribution locked) in black but now want to change to white if possible. I've contacted them through the Indiegogo page but no response yet.


----------



## mctrials23

Is there any way to tell when your order has shipped? I was contributor #36 but I changed to a black grinder a few months ago. The status is "contribution locked" and some peoples are saying fulfilled. Is that the status that means its shipped?


----------



## DavecUK

gfunk03 said:


> Has anyone changed the colour after ordering? I ordered when the price was £425 (status is contribution locked) in black but now want to change to white if possible. I've contacted them through the Indiegogo page but no response yet.


I almost want to swap my UK version with you....because I think the black looks stunning as well.


----------



## gfunk03

DavecUK said:


> I almost want to swap my UK version with you....because I think the black looks stunning as well.


Dave, yeah I think the black looks great too but the white would be better in my kitchen since I have now decided to change the colour scheme lol


----------



## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Which happens to have been the biggest selling food mixer for decades, but hey ho....


Indeed, let's hope Niche have the same success


----------



## hotmetal

I reckon there'll be quite a lot of people wishing they had got the other colour, it's human nature. With all of them being shipped near enough at the same time, I would imagine there could be a lively 'colour swap' thread on here once everyone gets theirs... I personally love the black one, but didn't back it when perhaps I should have, so I'll watch from the sidelines. There hasn't been this much buzz about a new grinder ever, as far as i recall, even during EK fever, the Peak, etc etc. It's fun to see. Maybe I'll get myself one some day.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## gfunk03

hotmetal said:


> I reckon there'll be quite a lot of people wishing they had got the other colour, it's human nature. With all of them being shipped near enough at the same time, I would imagine there could be a lively 'colour swap' thread on here once everyone gets theirs... I personally love the black one, but didn't back it when perhaps I should have, so I'll watch from the sidelines. There hasn't been this much buzz about a new grinder ever, as far as i recall, even during EK fever, the Peak, etc etc. It's fun to see. Maybe I'll get myself one some day.
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


I'd say you're right! I am very excited about getting mine!


----------



## Paul K

Those of you who have had notification DPD should be receiving updates at some point today. - Whoo Hoo


----------



## DavecUK

How many people are doing this


----------



## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> Just out of interest, have any Monolith owners bought a Niche? It would be interesting to compare the two. Will the bigger burrs shine through? Is life with the Monolith as good as people say? Is it also neary zero retention. So many questions to answer!


They will both make brown that you can add milk too


----------



## DavecUK

I don't understand why people keep comparing the Niche to the Monolith? Two completely different class of grinders aimed at completely different market segments and vastly differing price points.


----------



## MildredM

The only comparison I can see to the Monolith grinder is its kitchen-friendly size (and thus makes for easier shipping for those swaps!). I think it's fantastic that a decent home use grinder has actually been seen as a worthwhile business venture with the undoubted investment involved.

Of course I'd love one - just to try it out, but it isn't (and obviously isn't intended to be) a Monolith replacement.

I am am so excited for everyone getting their Niches* soon









*trying to work out the best word for the plural of Niche! Nichi!


----------



## kennyboy993

DavecUK said:


> I don't understand why people keep comparing the Niche to the Monolith? Two completely different class of grinders aimed at completely different market segments and vastly differing price points.


Because they are both designed from the start as being single dosers and for home use which makes them in very rare company?


----------



## Stevebee

Might have to change my safe place before the Niche arrives!


----------



## Snakehips

Just to say that Monolith Conical pre-orders will be available on October 6th 1:00 PM PST.

Anticipated delivery February 2019.


----------



## Dayks

Just got a notification from the DPD app, Niche due to me tomorrow, very excited, although may not have much time to play with it as I have a telephone interview.


----------



## jaffro

Anyone else?!

(edit: hiding image so no one steals my niche!)


----------



## UncleJake

jaffro said:


> Anyone else?!
> 
> View attachment 36758


Yup.


----------



## Inglorious Alf

jaffro said:


> Anyone else?!
> 
> View attachment 36758


Thanks for posting the full URL - I'm now expecting a Niche by 2pm tomorrow!


----------



## slamm

Yep, just had dpd app notification - they received order details and are expecting the parcel shortly ..and now just got the email from Niche - it's finally happening!


----------



## jaffro

Inglorious Alf said:


> Thanks for posting the full URL - I'm now expecting a Niche by 2pm tomorrow!


Haha, I did wonder if it was a bad idea...


----------



## Beeroclock

Had no notifications whatsoever - wondering if changing to a black version - put we way down the list....


----------



## PPapa

Beeroclock said:


> Had no notifications whatsoever - wondering if changing to a black version - put we way down the list....


Likewise - my contribution ID for the Niche is under 300, but the colour contribution is well over 600.

Indiegogo website still shows it as "contribution locked", DPD is quiet too!

Getting impatient now...


----------



## BaggaZee

Changed to a Black one but still got my confirmation just now that it'll be with me tomorrow.









...and I just remembered that I ordered far too much coffee last week so have over a kilo to play with.


----------



## Dayks

PPapa said:


> Likewise - my contribution ID for the Niche is under 300, but the colour contribution is well over 600.
> 
> Indiegogo website still shows it as "contribution locked", DPD is quiet too!
> 
> Getting impatient now...


Mine has changed to Fulfilled now.


----------



## mctrials23

Still on "contribution locked" despite being #36 on the contribution list. I changed to a black on back in June but other people who did the same seem to have had theirs dispatched. If it gets to the end of the week without movement I might give the Niche guys a quick email to see whats happening. Looking forward to seeing some pictures and first impressions from the guys who get them first though!


----------



## Beeroclock




----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Just been changed to fulfilled status on IGG. number 22 on the list. Now getting excited


----------



## Nopapercup

Just had confirmation that mine will be delivered tomorrow. Unfortunately I won't be back for a while to try it out.


----------



## Rhys

Emailed to say mines coming tomorrow as well. Picked a safe place as I won't be in


----------



## Jony

Rhys said:


> Emailed to say mines coming tomorrow as well. Picked a safe place as I won't be in


I will be in,haha


----------



## gfunk03

I emailed about changing my colour from black to white and they said it would delay my order by two or three weeks as they are building to order, I said that was fine. Just in case anyone else is in the same boat.


----------



## LukeT

Had confirmation mine's coming tomorrow too. Whoop whoop! But I won't be back to try it out til later in the week either.

Do I need to run a load of supermarket beans through it first or can I just get on and use it?


----------



## ashcroc

LukeT said:


> Had confirmation mine's coming tomorrow too. Whoop whoop! But I won't be back to try it out til later in the week either.
> 
> Do I need to run a load of supermarket beans through it first or can I just get on and use it?


Someone else asked yesterday though Dave's reply is a way up the list now.



DavecUK said:


> I wouldn't bother, just use it. It continues to improve for 15Kg or so. However, it's good enough straight out of the box, burrs are well finished.


----------



## LukeT

coffeechap said:


> Yep one looks amazing and one looks like a ken wood food mixer


One of my few other kitchen countertop appliances is a kenwood mixer that's older than I am. It still does its job very well. Maybe when we get our new kitchen the two will get pride of place sitting there together!

I think the monolith looks lovely too, but given the reaction I expect from the purchase of a Niche, a coffee grinder that's worth as much as our car would take some introducing...


----------



## MildredM

I reckon the forum needs a whole separate section devoted to the Niche. Threads for delivery and unboxing, first thoughts, in use, colour swaps, and whatever else


----------



## jonnycooper29

MildredM said:


> I reckon the forum needs a whole separate section devoted to the Niche. Threads for delivery and unboxing, first thoughts, in use, colour swaps, and whatever else


I think it deserves a whole new forum dedicated to it.. or is that too far?


----------



## DavecUK

Funny enough once the initial excitement and surprise dies down it will all go quiet. This is because it just works....it amazes me every day but it just works.


----------



## richwade80

MildredM said:


> I reckon the forum needs a whole separate section devoted to the Niche. Threads for delivery and unboxing, first thoughts, in use, colour swaps, and whatever else


I can see a lot of people, me included, wanting to compare settings for a whole manner of coffee drinks.

It would be great if it worked out. Probably wishful thinking though?


----------



## slamm

LukeT said:


> One of my few other kitchen countertop appliances is a kenwood mixer that's older than I am. It still does its job very well. Maybe when we get our new kitchen the two will get pride of place sitting there together!


If your mixer is from the 90s there's a chance Martin might have had a hand in designing it. He designed ten products for Kenwood which probably explains the Zero's resemblance to some of their products and the kitchen friendly approach to its design.


----------



## ashcroc

jonnycooper29 said:


> I think it deserves a whole new forum dedicated to it.. or is that too far?


It would be a great spot for all the inevitable comparison threads with other (often more expensive) grinders to congregate.


----------



## LukeT

slamm said:


> If your mixer is from the 90s there's a chance Martin might have had a hand in designing it. He designed ten products for Kenwood which probably explains the Zero's resemblance to some of their products and the kitchen friendly approach to its design.


I wish I was born in the 90s! I think mine's from the 60s.


----------



## Rhys

It needs its own Niche section


----------



## Syenitic

This place is becoming a mob...of what I am too restrained to say


----------



## cold war kid

Beeroclock said:


> View attachment 36759


I thought I had no chance of getting mine in October, having only backed it at the beginning of September but this makes me hopeful.

As long as I get it this side of Christmas though, I'll be a happy bunny.


----------



## joey24dirt

Had an awful dream last night that DPD screwed up the deliveries  I haven't even ordered one and still stressing for you all


----------



## hotmetal

Joey! That's mad! Hope everyone has a happy niche day, whenever that might be.

I haven't ordered one either but I'm still caught up in the excitement hahaha!


----------



## joey24dirt

hotmetal said:


> Joey! That's mad! Hope everyone has a happy niche day, whenever that might be.
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


I know! I think because of my recent dealings with DPD, and then reading this before bed set me up for a restless night


----------



## hotmetal

On the whole i find DPD to be one of the best though. They got my E37s to me on time in perfect condition and l could track it all the way on is journey from Torr, complete with map. Also they seem to be quite good if you realise you're going to miss your slot and can divert it to a local pickup. They'd be my first choice of courier based on my experiences.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Paul K

hotmetal said:


> On the whole i find DPD to be one of the best though. They got my E37s to me on time in perfect condition and l could track it all the way on is journey from Torr, complete with map. Also they seem to be quite good if you realise you're going to miss your slot and can divert it to a local pickup. They'd be my first choice of courier based on my experiences.
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


Can't see past them to be honest, although they have missed their time slot. When I complained I get a refund from the supplier.

Way better than FedEx, RM unless before 1pm, and that awful company Yo, Yo, Yo, I can't bring myself to say it.


----------



## hotmetal

Paul K said:


> that awful company Yo, Yo, Yo, I can't bring myself to say it.


You mean NoDel?

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Paul K

hotmetal said:


> You mean NoDel?
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


LOL That's the people!


----------



## joey24dirt

hotmetal said:


> On the whole i find DPD to be one of the best though. They got my E37s to me on time in perfect condition and l could track it all the way on is journey from Torr, complete with map. Also they seem to be quite good if you realise you're going to miss your slot and can divert it to a local pickup. They'd be my first choice of courier based on my experiences.
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


Opposite end of the spectrum for me unfortunately. Wouldn't trust them as far as they can throw my parcels over walls


----------



## kennyboy993

Has anyone felt this excited since Christmas 1976?!

Not that I am of course - probably late November before I get mine


----------



## hotmetal

Oh! Yeah that's not good. Not much point in delivering something if you're just going to break it in the process. No wonder courier companies hide behind endless exclusion clauses and don't give a monkeys about service. I suppose they feel safe and there's little in the way of competition as they all seem as bad. It's going to take a change in the law to make couriers actually take responsibility for stuff entrusted to them. But i fear we're drifting OT. I'm sure no Niches will be thrown over walls...

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## joey24dirt

hotmetal said:


> Oh! Yeah that's not good. Not much point in delivering something if you're just going to break it in the process. No wonder courier companies hide behind endless exclusion clauses and don't give a monkeys about service. I suppose they feel safe and there's little in the way of competition as they all seem as bad. It's going to take a change in the law to make couriers actually take responsibility for stuff entrusted to them. But i fear we're drifting OT. I'm sure no Niches will be thrown over walls...
> 
> ___
> 
> Eat, drink and be merry


Same. Genuinely excited for everyone to get theirs and to see them out in the field grafting.


----------



## Paul K

kennyboy993 said:


> Has anyone felt this excited since Christmas 1976?!
> 
> Not that I am of course - probably late November before I get mine


Ditto Kenny


----------



## slamm

Just had a ping from dpd - 1hr time slot later this afternoon so look forwards to watching the excitement unfold as others get theirs, while I patiently (possibly!) wait for mine!


----------



## Planter

Out of curiosity are warranties transferable if sold on?


----------



## 9719

I'll offer £250 including postage


----------



## ajohn

DPD proper are ok, dpd local are a can of worms with the longest exclusion list I have ever seen and super cheap. UPS even the cheap way via drop off are good. RM Special Delivery are in some ways easily the best of the lot as that is handled entirely separately to the rest. Parcel Farce are also pretty good but not around Xmas or busy times as white van man sometimes appears then.








Must admit though my few problems receiving or sending who ever was used wouldn't have happened with just a bit more thought when they were packed.








When shipping I also send on a day when what ever it is wont spend a lot of a weekend sitting around in a warehouse somewhere while the number of parcels that need to be delivered builds up.

John

-


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> DPD proper are ok, dpd local are a can of worms with the longest exclusion list I have ever seen and super cheap. UPS even the cheap way via drop off are good. RM Special Delivery are in some ways easily the best of the lot as that is handled entirely separately to the rest. Parcel Farce are also pretty good but not around Xmas or busy times as white van man sometimes appears then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must admit though my few problems receiving or sending who ever was used wouldn't have happened with just a bit more thought when they were packed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When shipping I also send on a day when what ever it is wont spend a lot of a weekend sitting around in a warehouse somewhere while the number of parcels that need to be delivered builds up.
> 
> John
> 
> -


All the delivery drivers my end for the different companies know me....so not usually any problems. Unless of course they happen in the Depot. I bet you guys are all really looking forward to using your grinders this afternoon! My top tip would be; run 2 preferably 3 doubles through the grinder, then start using it to make coffee.


----------



## jonners

The Niche has landed! Mine has actually arrived, and with no prior notification by email that it was on the way. Happy that I was in.


----------



## mctrials23

jonners said:


> The Niche has landed! Mine has actually arrived, and with no prior notification by email that it was on the way. Happy that I was in.


Was your indiegogo status set to "fulfilled"?


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

jonners said:


> The Niche has landed! Mine has actually arrived, and with no prior notification by email that it was on the way. Happy that I was in.


Congrats! I have not had an email or text. The only way i know it is coming is the dpd app....30 mins and counting


----------



## Stevebee

ajohn said:


> DPD proper are ok, dpd local are a can of worms with the longest exclusion list I have ever seen and super cheap. UPS even the cheap way via drop off are good. RM Special Delivery are in some ways easily the best of the lot as that is handled entirely separately to the rest. Parcel Farce are also pretty good but not around Xmas or busy times as white van man sometimes appears then.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Must admit though my few problems receiving or sending who ever was used wouldn't have happened with just a bit more thought when they were packed.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When shipping I also send on a day when what ever it is wont spend a lot of a weekend sitting around in a warehouse somewhere while the number of parcels that need to be delivered builds up.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Agree about DPD. The proper one I've found to be really good. DPD Local quite ropey. Had a time slot on 2 occasions and tracked the parcel on their site until 15 mins away. Then got a text to say no one was in, theyv'e left a card, none of which happened!. That was really frustrating. Was delivered next day fine in both cases.


----------



## mctrials23

Stevebee said:


> Agree about DPD. The proper one I've found to be really good. DPD Local quite ropey. Had a time slot on 2 occasions and tracked the parcel on their site until 15 mins away. Then got a text to say no one was in, theyv'e left a card, none of which happened!. That was really frustrating. Was delivered next day fine in both cases.


Has this myself a few times. I really dislike companies just straight up lying to me. If they say, sorry we didn't have time to deliver to you today I could understand but when they try to blame you when they never came near your house its a joke.


----------



## Dayks

Seems like mine isn't coming until tomorrow now, has just changed in the DPD app with no notification, text or email and this despite it arriving at the depot early this morning.


----------



## DavecUK

jonners said:


> The Niche has landed! Mine has actually arrived, and with no prior notification by email that it was on the way. Happy that I was in.


So how is it, made coffee with it yet?

P.S. You must be the first (forum member) in the UK to get one.


----------



## jonners

mctrials23 said:


> Was your indiegogo status set to "fulfilled"?


Yes it was, so I knew it was coming but I expected an email with tracking info etc.


----------



## MildredM

@jonners can we have photos please?!! How does it feel . . . What do you reckon?!!!


----------



## mctrials23

jonners said:


> Yes it was, so I knew it was coming but I expected an email with tracking info etc.


Cheers! Let us know what you think!


----------



## jonners

DavecUK said:


> So how is it, made coffee with it yet?
> 
> P.S. You must be the first (forum member) in the UK to get one.


It's very nic(h)e indeed. First attempt at espresso was a bit too fine, but tastes more than OK. (Coffee Compass Mystery Bean no.9). I think people will be very happy with it. Too busy playing to say more, sorry.....

Amazed that I'm first, I was well down on the list.


----------



## PaulL




----------



## jonnycooper29

jonners said:


> Amazed that I'm first, I was well down on the list.


This gives me hope that I might even get mine before Sunday! I have some friends over and I don't fancy using my Aergrind to make each of them a coffee..


----------



## jonners

MildredM said:


> @jonners can we have photos please?!! How does it feel . . . What do you reckon?!!!


It feels lovely. Responds well to a gentle caress. Photos of me fondling it might be censored.









Seriously, it feels very solid and well-made. Good finish.


----------



## Grahamg

jonnycooper29 said:


> This gives me hope that I might even get mine before Sunday! I have some friends over and I don't fancy using my Aergrind to make each of them a coffee..


I was really early on and still as contribution locked, but am quite happy to wait longer with any poor bugger hand grinding in the interim getting preference


----------



## kennyboy993

jonners said:


> The Niche has landed! Mine has actually arrived, and with no prior notification by email that it was on the way. Happy that I was in.


Jonners - like it or not you now have a huge responsibility to feedback to the forum......

Ha seriously - enjoy and here's to good coffee ;-)


----------



## PPapa

Grahamg said:


> I was really early on and still as contribution locked, but am quite happy to wait longer with any poor bugger hand grinding in the interim getting preference


I mentioned in the "Did you back Niche" that I was in first 20, but mine hasn't updated either.

On the other hand, I have e37s to play with (yours, by the way!), so I don't think I'm in a huge rush. *keeps refreshing*


----------



## mctrials23

Grahamg said:


> I was really early on and still as contribution locked, but am quite happy to wait longer with any poor bugger hand grinding in the interim getting preference


Doesn't seem like they are sending them out in any order related to when you backed it. Perhaps its done via area? Who know. I'm another super early bird that is still on "contribution locked"


----------



## Beeroclock

Maybe, the more you paid the earlier you get it...


----------



## joey24dirt

Stevebee said:


> Agree about DPD. The proper one I've found to be really good. DPD Local quite ropey. Had a time slot on 2 occasions and tracked the parcel on their site until 15 mins away. Then got a text to say no one was in, theyv'e left a card, none of which happened!. That was really frustrating. Was delivered next day fine in both cases.


They do that to me almost every delivery. So annoying


----------



## 4085

I had a shipping consignment yesterday that was cancelled 2 minutes later. I emailed them to be told it was an error and was due to ship sometime this week. this means that there obviously is no order in things since I was number 7 on Indiegogo


----------



## PaulL

Busy working day for me so a quick post to say thank you to Martin, his family and team for their perseverence. I can imagine after a handful of years from concept to reality he may have aged, greyed and thinned! Also a thank you to DaveC and other who have championed it and the time they have spent and no doubt fed back to Martin. In Indigogo terms, my order has not arrived, my contribution has been fulfilled and my perk has arrived.

I'll leave others to put up photos, you can see how mine looks from the photos I put a while ago when DaveC brought his prototype around.

I'm drinking an americano as I write this and it's all that it's hyped to be. A higher and fluffier basket fill than I am used to, superb espresso pour and a clean defined taste, all that I am looking for


----------



## AliG

I just got mine, and i'm a little bit excited. Backed it pretty early, but not sure where I was in the queue.


----------



## GingerBen

Excellent news so far. Planning on running a couple of bags through mine when i arrives to remove the 'new grinder' smell


----------



## slamm

GingerBen said:


> Excellent news so far. Planning on running a couple of bags through mine when i arrives to remove the 'new grinder' smell


Likewise.. have a bag of Sainsburys finest waiting to be sacrificed to the grinder gods.. seems wrong not to!


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Niches has landed


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

apologies for gratuitous photos


----------



## mctrials23

Did any of you guys that have received your grinders order the black?


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

and one more...


----------



## DavecUK

Just remember the duty cycle if you're thinking of running a whole bag through in short order. I think running a bag through is not necessary (just 2 or 3 doubles) but if you have to, follow the duty cycle. I never had any problems when I was abuse testing, but I am sure none of you want to abuse test your own grinder.


----------



## AliG

mctrials23 said:


> Did any of you guys that have received your grinders order the black?


Mine is white


----------



## slamm

DavecUK said:


> Just remember the duty cycle if you're thinking of running a whole bag through in short order. I think running a bag through is not necessary (just 2 or 3 doubles) but if you have to, follow the duty cycle. I never had any problems when I was abuse testing, but I am sure none of you want to abuse test your own grinder.


Will do.. just so you know - I had the bag ready before I asked, expecting to get several more.. otherwise I would not have bothered and the grinder gods would have just had to make do with a couple of flushes of the good stuff as you recommended.


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> Just remember the duty cycle if you're thinking of running a whole bag through in short order. I think running a bag through is not necessary (just 2 or 3 doubles) but if you have to, follow the duty cycle. I never had any problems when I was abuse testing, but I am sure none of you want to abuse test your own grinder.


That's something that needs an eye keeping on with any grinder especially when you start eventually getting down to espresso levels. I've found it's possible to visit that area now and again to see how things are progressing if the grinder needs this. Niche may not and wont according to what is usually a reliable source.

John

-


----------



## Rhys

Just been sent a pic on mine in my 'safe place.' It's arrived and I'm at work... bugger


----------



## thenag

Mine is due to arrive in the next hour. Backed it in early Sept last year. Cherub is on and heating up, and there's a kilo of Rave Chatswood that's about to get ground to dust over the next few days. Hoping for a more consistent cup and less messing around when dialling in compared to the Iberital MC2 I've been using up to now. Hope I notice a difference!


----------



## ashcroc

Rhys said:


> Just been sent a pic on mine in my 'safe place.' It's arrived and I'm at work... bugger


Ooh. Treasure hunt!


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

thenag said:


> Mine is due to arrive in the next hour. Backed it in early Sept last year. Cherub is on and heating up, and there's a kilo of Rave Chatswood that's about to get ground to dust over the next few days. Hoping for a more consistent cup and less messing around when dialling in compared to the Iberital MC2 I've been using up to now. Hope I notice a difference!


based on my brief experience..you will not be disappointed. I am now thoroughly enjoying coffee compass brighton lanes as espresso...now tasting notes make sense...it is a quantum leap from my old krupps grinder

Main concern is i am drinking too much coffee


----------



## thenag

TonyCoffeeNewbie said:


> based on my brief experience..you will not be disappointed. I am now thoroughly enjoying coffee compass brighton lanes as espresso...now tasting notes make sense...it is a quantum leap from my old krupps grinder
> 
> Main concern is i am drinking too much coffee


Sounds like exactly what I'm hoping for!

Coffee addiction might be a problem. This will not help. Not only will it make it easier to make a better tasting cup, but it's quieter. The Iberital woke the whole house, so I skipped using it in the mornings. I might be able to sneak in a cup before I leave with the Niche and noone will know


----------



## richwade80

ditto that on the mc2, the better half is not a fan of the noise.

The whole family is waiting for *Father Nichemas* to deliver ....has he been?

...no he friggin' hasn't even said he will be coming yet. i must be on the naughty list.


----------



## hifimacianer

Congratulations to all of you, these are exiting days 

May I ask the first time testers, to share your opinions regarding grind consistency in the V60 (pour over) to French Press range?

I have my hands on a Niche, that a Backer doesn't really need - he would sell it to me for his Backer price when he gets his Niche.

But since we drink Pourover and FP only, I need some more "first hands" impressions how it performs in this range.

Thank you!


----------



## Stevebee

hifimacianer said:


> Congratulations to all of you, these are exiting days
> 
> May I ask the first time testers, to share your opinions regarding grind consistency in the V60 (pour over) to French Press range?
> 
> I have my hands on a Niche, that a Backer doesn't really need - he would sell it to me for his Backer price when he gets his Niche.
> 
> But since we drink Pourover and FP only, I need some more "first hands" impressions how it performs in this range.
> 
> Thank you!


Must be the first one to be resold - and mine has yet to arrive!

Wonder how long before they start to appear in the forum For Sale section (won't be mine for sure!)


----------



## joey24dirt

I want to see pictures of the wooden parts so I can get some kits together


----------



## Grahamg

joey24dirt said:


> I want to see pictures of the wooden parts so I can get some kits together


Strike whilst the iron's hot before folks get too used to how it looks!


----------



## hifimacianer

Stevebee said:


> Must be the first one to be resold - and mine has yet to arrive!


His Niche did also not arrive yet (in Germany), but he saw that I'm interested in the Niche Grinder in the german forum, and wrote me a pm that he want's to sell it when it arrives.


----------



## joey24dirt

Grahamg said:


> Strike whilst the iron's hot before folks get too used to how it looks!


Haha yeah. Would look great against the white. I wish I'd ordered one now


----------



## ashcroc

joey24dirt said:


> I want to see pictures of the wooden parts so I can get some kits together


Better to get someone to lend you one to take measurements off in exchange for a discount on the first set you make.


----------



## MildredM

Rhys said:


> Just been sent a pic on mine in my 'safe place.' It's arrived and I'm at work... bugger


 I'm not a million miles away and would be happy to rescue it for you


----------



## UncleJake

Was totally prepped to do a "Hmmm. It's alright I guess - but I won't be selling the Wilfa" style gag. But somehow can't bring myself to - I like it.

Took a long time to dial - very surprised at how high on the guide my light roasts are sitting at for espresso.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

UncleJake said:


> Took a long time to dial - very surprised at how high on the guide my light roasts are sitting at for espresso.


yes my medium roast sit at 33 on the grind guide, which is higher than I initially assumed it would be, but it is all relative. The wording on the guide really just indicates which way to rotate from coarse to fine and not absolute positions for different brew types.


----------



## Stevebee

I'm starting to dislike the phrase "Contribution Locked"


----------



## Rscut

Have any black ones been delivered yet?


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

Rscut said:


> Have any black ones been delivered yet?


Contribution Placed on my black one, and I thought I was fairly quick to order a black one. My order is low 500's, and I know over 500 have been built, just no indication of how many black and where in the black allocation I sit.


----------



## jaffro

Ah mine has arrived and is ready for collection, now the wait until Thursday when I can collect it!


----------



## DavecUK

Where is all the video...I expected video soft lights music....


----------



## Stevebee

DavecUK said:


> Where is all the video...I expected video soft lights music....


Sounds like a typical Saturday night


----------



## mctrials23

Rscut said:


> Have any black ones been delivered yet?


I was one of the first to order but changed my order to a black one about 4 months ago. I haven't moved past "contribution locked". I don't think any black ones have been delivered yet. Would be nice if the communication from Niche was a little less ambiguous or just straight up more to the point. There are so many ways they might be structuring the deliveries but hopefully all of the early backers will get them posted out this week at some point.


----------



## LukeT

Got the email to say mine's on my front porch. When I finally get home on Thursday afternoon I shall be drinking a lot of coffee!

Edit: mine is also white.


----------



## DavecUK

FuzzyFeltDeath said:


> Contribution Placed on my black one, and I thought I was fairly quick to order a black one. My order is low 500's, and I know over 500 have been built, just no indication of how many black and where in the black allocation I sit.


Couldn't resist


----------



## 4085

Rscut said:


> Have any black ones been delivered yet?


first black ones are going out tomorrow


----------



## kennyboy993

dfk41 said:


> first black ones are going out tomorrow


I was relatively late to the party though one of the early black ones so I could be a lucky boy.


----------



## PPapa

dfk41 said:


> first black ones are going out tomorrow


Out for delivery or out from Niche?


----------



## 4085

PPapa said:


> Out for delivery or out from Niche?


delivery thursday


----------



## DavidBondy

I've got a black one coming but I have no idea when. I'm not even going to open it. Directly into storage for mine!


----------



## BaggaZee

So mine is now sitting in the postroom but they've sent a White one in error. I'm desperately resisting the urge to open and use it!


----------



## Jony

DavidBondy said:


> I've got a black one coming but I have no idea when. I'm not even going to open it. Directly into storage for mine!


 @DavidBondy would you sell if I sent you a November one?? If I ordered??


----------



## DavidBondy

Jony said:


> @DavidBondy would you sell if I sent you a November one?? If I ordered??


Sorry, no! As soon as my Titus is sold then I shall break out the Niche. This could be any time and I wouldn't want to be grinder-less!

David


----------



## Jony

DavidBondy said:


> Sorry, no! As soon as my Titus is sold then I shall break out the Niche. This could be any time and I wouldn't want to be grinder-less!
> 
> David


That's what happened to me! My Monolith sold and then my other set up sold, I have Feld2 not amused


----------



## lake_m

ashcroc said:


> Better to get someone to lend you one to take measurements off in exchange for a discount on the first set you make.


Bring your calipers round mate....


----------



## Nicknak

A niche advertised on Ebay 399


----------



## jonnycooper29

Nicknak said:


> A niche advertised on Ebay 399


That's taking the Micky! It's less than I paid for it, and mines probably not coming until next week


----------



## Nicknak

Plus free postage


----------



## lake_m

Nicknak said:


> A niche advertised on Ebay 399


Must be easier ways of making fifty sheets.


----------



## Jony

Kerching not any more!


----------



## Nicknak

I agree , at least try it for a while ..

I would prefer to buy direct from the manufacturer.. guarantee etc

But I'll wait until my super dooper little conical burred grinder dies .. Sage pro


----------



## mctrials23

lake_m said:


> Must be easier ways of making fifty sheets.


Probably taking a slight loss if anything. Cheapest grinder is £350+£10 P&P. eBay will want their fee, then they have to pay postage to the buyer and paypal fees.


----------



## Jony

If he is forum member he should of put itnon here


----------



## ashcroc

Tea drinking ex may have got it in the divorce & just wants rid.


----------



## joey24dirt

lake_m said:


> Bring your calipers round mate....


Haha so you're my local niche owner. See you Saturday ?


----------



## slamm

Been waiting nearly two hours past the time slot as the next customer.. refreshing the map (which I suspect is delayed) and wondered why my guy was driving away.. no reponse on chat "cs busy", while in a queue on the phone got a message "as requested.." my parcel is now coming tomorrow, except obviously I didn't request it. I wouldn't mind so much but "as requested" just increases the frustration.

Anyway off now to crack open the LSOL and make myself a ccd.. I need a coffee!

Have fun peeps who got their Niches today!


----------



## Nicknak

ashcroc said:


> Tea drinking ex may have got it in the divorce & just wants rid.


Hope it's not someone away on here waiting to get home to see their parcel and beloved


----------



## Jony

OK update just bought the Niche on ebay, and now he as refunded me, [email protected]@ in inbecile, hope he is on here going to roast him, I didn't read description.


----------



## lake_m

Jony said:


> OK update just bought the Niche on ebay, and now he as refunded me, [email protected]@ in inbecile, hope he is on here going to roast him, I didn't read description.


Why the refund?


----------



## Jony

Not got a clue!! he just refunded me, with a choice word for him in a reply!!

Hi, I've just refunded your payment as it's no longer available as explained.

Regards,

Jerome


----------



## mctrials23

Jony said:


> OK update just bought the Niche on ebay, and now he as refunded me, [email protected]@ in inbecile, hope he is on here going to roast him, I didn't read description.


Why did he refund you? I'm confused... what went wrong?


----------



## Jony

Nothing paid via PP that's all. I'm clueless re read it can't vsee anything


----------



## mctrials23

Jony said:


> Nothing paid via PP that's all. I'm clueless re read it can't vsee anything


The description doesn't say anything of the sort.


----------



## joey24dirt

Jony said:


> Nothing paid via PP that's all. I'm clueless re read it can't vsee anything


Probably testing the water maybe then relist for more.


----------



## Jony

More than likely.


----------



## Dayks

Good job I looked out my window.

This was in the process of being delivered to my neighbour, looks like the DPD driver doubled back and picked it up.


----------



## Rhys

Peek-a-boo...










V60 setting 32 on Niche. 20g with 333g filtered BWT Bestmax Mg water. Using current LSOL.. Blimey this is smooth.. Mmmm...

Now the Speedster is warmed up (yeah it's late, but who cares.. I've got a new toy!)

Tried it on setting 8. 18g LSOL erm.. roughly 75 seconds pre-infusion at 3 bar and just starting to drip. When fully saturated into 2nd gear and actually a nice steady pour. Was expecting bitterness, but no.. Smooth tasty coffee.. Before tasting and while waiting for the drips, I tried setting 12.

This time, 18g into exactly 36g. 45 seconds pre-infusion (what I usually aim for tbh. Forget normal pre-infusion, this is a Speedster







) and a nice steady pour when in 2nd gear. Ramped down into 1st after 25g and got to to stop at 35.9g, final drip.. 36g. Very tasty..










(already had a few sips..)

Have to say, it came very well packaged and even has a nice little pasty brush included. Glad I stopped with the white. The tumbler fits my portafilter very well. With just a few taps I get a nice even bed of coffee in the basket. Still did a quick swizzle about with the Londinium tool and distribution thing before tamping and got a very even spread on the bottom of the basket.

Will be giving it a go in the morning as well, since I have my machine on a timer so it's warm when I get up at 6 am. Might the new #SSSSS for my morning brew.


----------



## ashcroc

Rhys said:


> Peek-a-boo...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> V60 setting 32 on Niche. 20g with 333g filtered BWT Bestmax Mg water. Using current LSOL.. Blimey this is smooth.. Mmmm...
> 
> Now the Speedster is warmed up (yeah it's late, but who cares.. I've got a new toy!)
> 
> Tried it on setting 8. 18g LSOL erm.. roughly 75 seconds pre-infusion at 3 bar and just starting to drip. When fully saturated into 2nd gear and actually a nice steady pour. Was expecting bitterness, but no.. Smooth tasty coffee.. Before tasting and while waiting for the drips, I tried setting 12.
> 
> This time, 18g into exactly 36g. 45 seconds pre-infusion (what I usually aim for tbh. Forget normal pre-infusion, this is a Speedster
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ) and a nice steady pour when in 2nd gear. Ramped down into 1st after 25g and got to to stop at 35.9g, final drip.. 36g. Very tasty..
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> (already had a few sips..)
> 
> Have to say, it came very well packaged and even has a nice little pasty brush included. Glad I stopped with the white. The tumbler fits my portafilter very well. With just a few taps I get a nice even bed of coffee in the basket. Still did a quick swizzle about with the Londinium tool and distribution thing before tamping and got a very even spread on the bottom of the basket.
> 
> Will be giving it a go in the morning as well, since I have my machine on a timer so it's warm when I get up at 6 am. Might the new #SSSSS for my morning brew.


Obligatory shot of the niche between the legs of the EK please. 

Glad you're enjoying it. How does it compare to your other 2 beauties?


----------



## Dayks

Bit late for coffee for me but had to give it a go.

Made two flat whites and I'm already in love.

No measurable retention, quiet, easy to use and adjust.

l'm using it with a Sage DTP and I am glad I bought a portafilter funnel or I suspect it could be awkward to use the grind cup.

Odd thing I noticed, no coffee grounds left on tamper, don't know if it is the anti-static coating but the same coffee from my K10 leaves a little coffee on the tamper.

Shot details: Pharmacy Rwandan from Dog and Hat - https://pharmacie.coffee/collections/retail-coffee/products/copy-of-mt-elgon-pb-uganda-filter-roast

Arrived on 22, tried that 17.5 in 28 out in 60 seconds when the DTP cut out (gave to unsuspecting family member, who liked it anyway)

Adjusted to 27, 17.5 in 35 out in 26 seconds, tasted the espresso and nice, if a touch sour. Made a nice flat white but will go a little bit tighter tomorrow.


----------



## PPapa

How comparable are the grind settings, I now wonder...

This would open up a world for recipes for those who don't hand grind or own an EK/Compak RXX0s


----------



## UncleJake

PPapa said:


> How comparable are the grind settings, I now wonder...
> 
> This would open up a world for recipes for those who don't hand grind or own an EK/Compak RXX0s


Imagine if they were comparable! Too much to ask I think - but yeah - then we'd need a whole section of the forum to ourselves, we're being annoying enough as it is!


----------



## jonners

I'm currently on a grind setting of 22 for beans on the dark side of medium roast in my Cremina.


----------



## thenag

I've made 4 flat whites today with the Niche (not all for me). This thing is outstanding. Every single drink has been consistent. No channeling, no variation in timing. Same in (18g). Same out (32g). Same time exactly (24s). Every coffee tastes excellent. Ended up at setting 15; I tamp with the force of a small child and it seems perfect. The grind and the cup for distribution are so well implemented.

Plus, the bonus is my wife is exceptionally happy that it looks cool in the kitchen, and she can easily hold a conversation while it's grinding, which was totally impossible with the MC2!

Thank you Niche. You have totally aced it!


----------



## Rhys

ashcroc said:


> Obligatory shot of the niche between the legs of the EK please.
> 
> Glad you're enjoying it. How does it compare to your other 2 beauties?












There you go.. Although it looks a little perverse..







I'm expecting to get up in the morning to find little EK/Niche offspring foraging for coffee beans in my kitchen..









I've not compared them yet. The EK needs aligning and the Versalab can't really be compared to anything else tbh. I can now say I've got a full set.. Large flat burr, large conical and a flat/conical hybrid.

All I can say is I'm going to be very caffeinated.. Upshot of which is it's going to be an estimated 15 sleeps to Xmas


----------



## slamm

Dayks said:


> Adjusted to 27, 17.5 in 35 out in 26 seconds, tasted the espresso and nice, if a touch sour. Made a nice flat white but will go a little bit tighter tomorrow.


Curious about what settings are suggested in the user guide for spro?

- looks like a wide range of settings being experimented with while people get to grips.. 8 - 27 so far.. one of those extremes may be a bit off.. maybe try something closer to Rhys's setting of 8-12 for spro to lose the sourness?


----------



## Dayks

slamm said:


> Curious about what settings are suggested in the user guide for spro?
> 
> - looks like a wide range of settings being experimented with while people get to grips.. 8 - 27 so far.. one of those extremes may be a bit off.. maybe try something closer to Rhys's setting of 8-12 for spro to lose the sourness?


Doesn't have any suggested settings in the user guide.

8-12 won't work for me, 22 pretty much choked my machine.


----------



## dan1502

thenag said:


> No channeling, no variation in timing.


Yes but TBF, I get that with the Rok hand grinder I'm using at work pending delivery of a Niche.


----------



## slamm

Dayks said:


> Doesn't have any suggested settings in the user guide.


Might explain why there seems to be such a wide range of settings being used.. might help to give Batman / I mean @DavecUK a shout.. to the rescue Dave.. any suggestions?


----------



## Stevebee

Rhys's setting was on a Speedster with 45s pre-infusion. I know that on my Vesuvius with a long preinfusion I need to grind significantly finer so that may be why its a finer setting.


----------



## ashcroc

Stevebee said:


> Rhys's setting was on a Speedster with 45s pre-infusion. I know that on my Vesuvius with a long preinfusion I need to grind significantly finer so that may be why its a finer setting.


That was on setting 12. Setting 8 gave him a whopping 75 seconds preinfusion.


----------



## thenag

dan1502 said:


> Yes but TBF, I get that with the Rok hand grinder I'm using at work pending delivery of a Niche.


I think some of my problems came from the MC2. It did well when dialled in, but there was a wide variation in how much the grounds clumped together. I did break it up with a skewer every time but, to be fair, my technique for distributing may just have sucked and led to inconsistency at times.

Anyway, I haven't needed to think about that. It just all worked with the new one. Even if I had got it consistently right before, there is just so much less faffing about with the Niche. Which means my wife doesn't get a chance to down 2/3rds of her cup before I've made mine.

Fair to say, I'm very glad I backed it. This was my first Indiegogo experience as well


----------



## Rhys

Yeah, pre-infusion on mine is probably closer to Slayer territory up to 3 bar (Slayer 'pre-brew' is 9 bar but flow is constricted to a trickle). Mine goes from practically zero line pressure (due to the built in pre-infusion chamber with the piston) and gently ramps up to 3 bar line pressure, which enables a finer grind as the puck isn't compressed as much at the beginning. I could do the same on the La Pavoni by letting the water trickle into the grouphead instead of just lifting the lever up fully. All goes to show that the Niche can grind pretty damn fine.

Having a quick flick through the instructions, and it mentions about calibrating it. Going finger tight and setting the white dot to the calibrate setting. Then winding back to 0. I might try that as it'll give a benchmark setting if everyone else did the same. I don't know how they've set it up at the factory so there may be a variance between grinders?


----------



## Rhys

ashcroc said:


> That was on setting 12. Setting 8 gave him a whopping 75 seconds preinfusion.


Might've been longer tbh. I looked at the built in timer and it said 68 seconds, before staring back at the bottom of the basket through the bottomless, waiting for some brown dots to appear..


----------



## Apatche64

Got mine chaps and all I can say is wow, already better taste than my mignon 2 and I haven't got the setting right yet

did give me retention the first time but none afterwards ...

grind seems brilliant compared pared to the mignon


----------



## 7493

No warning email but mine turned up this afternoon. Looking forward to trying it out tomorrow.


----------



## ashcroc

Rhys said:


> Might've been longer tbh. I looked at the built in timer and it said 68 seconds, before staring back at the bottom of the basket through the bottomless, waiting for some brown dots to appear..


Absolutely bonkers. Wish my tebe was capable of that. Right now any preinfusion is a byproduct of the vibe pump getting up to speed.


----------



## slamm

Rhys said:


> I could do the same on the La Pavoni by letting the water trickle into the grouphead instead of just lifting the lever up fully. All goes to show that the Niche can grind pretty damn fine.


Might have to try that with the pav.. I had an amazing shot with the Rianjangi a couple of days ago with a long-ish 24s pi and really sloooow 50s pull, best cap for ages. Can't wait to try the Niche with the Pavoni, hopefully tomorrow if dpd can get their act together.. sounds like it should be a great match.


----------



## Snakehips

HAPPY DAYS you Niche owners. Enjoy !


----------



## Rhys

Here's a better pic to give you some idea of scale..










The Niche doesn't quite fit under the EK, but it's pretty close.


----------



## Rhys

A smidge smaller than a Versalab M3, which is quite a compact grinder already.










I've just had the top off and the outer burrs out. Took no time at all. Very little in the way of coffee inside the chamber.

Just calibrated it as well. Tightened finger tight, and then moved the ring with the white dot round to line up with the calibrate dot. Then wound back to a rough espresso setting. There's no way to lock the ring with the white dot on as it just clicks round like a watch bezel. I don't think it'll knock out of place as long as you turn the collar by the silver part.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Rhys said:


> There you go.. Although it looks a little perverse.. ::
> 
> :


Looks like the pottery scene from Ghost


----------



## Jony

Come you coffee addicts. It's play time!


----------



## UncleJake

Rhys said:


> Just calibrated it as well. Tightened finger tight, and then moved the ring with the white dot round to line up with the calibrate dot. Then wound back to a rough espresso setting. There's no way to lock the ring with the white dot on as it just clicks round like a watch bezel. I don't think it'll knock out of place as long as you turn the collar by the silver part.


Ah yes, there's a manual. *raises specs*.

Thanks, after calibration a dark roast espresso is roughly in the middle of the espresso range. I'll sleep better tonight.


----------



## timmyjj21

Arrived in Australia super fast! Never received any shipping info so an unexpected delight.

The coffee corner now needs a re-organise!


----------



## ChrisBy

timmyjj21 said:


> Arrived in Australia super fast! Never received any shipping info so an unexpected delight.
> 
> The coffee corner now needs a re-organise!


Wow, that was quick. Am curious how long it'll take to Norway now.

How does it compare to the Super Jolly? I would have thought that in your case re-organise would have meant "get rid of the ol' Mazzer".


----------



## thebookfreak58

Woah that is quick. My tracking was last updated on 28/9, showing "Consolidation scan" in UK.

Also in Australia.


----------



## BaggaZee

Damnit, the post room delivered to my desk and now it's sitting there mocking me with its whiteness.


----------



## DavecUK

Now I would have posted the photo from Australia upside down.


----------



## arellim

Snakehips said:


> HAPPY DAYS you Niche owners. Enjoy !


Agreed- great to watch them all come in!!


----------



## Teejay

Is everyone getting emails from DPD with delivery times? Did we establish if the contribution ID has any relationship to when it will come?

I'm 887.

I need to organise working from home on the day of delivery as I have no alternative addresses.


----------



## Stanic

they look great

they could make a really small one with 38 mm burrs


----------



## Paul K

Teejay said:


> Is everyone getting emails from DPD with delivery times? Did we establish if the contribution ID has any relationship to when it will come?
> 
> I'm 887.
> 
> I need to organise working from home on the day of delivery as I have no alternative addresses.


Could you not get it delivered to your work address. I'm sure if you share your passion of coffee with your boss they may turn a blind eye


----------



## ajohn

BaggaZee said:


> Damnit, the post room delivered to my desk and now it's sitting there mocking me with its whiteness.


Did you order early when only white was available and then pay again for black later? I'd guess that there has been an admin error and perhaps all of the initial batch are white and black ones will arrive later.

Or maybe it is black in a white box as all of the boxes they have are marked white.

John

-


----------



## mctrials23

ajohn said:


> Did you order early when only white was available and then pay again for black later? I'd guess that there has been an admin error and perhaps all of the initial batch are white and black ones will arrive later.
> 
> Or maybe it is black in a white box as all of the boxes they have are marked white.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I don't think he is complaining about the colour, I think he just wishes he was at home so he could have a play with it.

The black ones go out today for delivery tomorrow as far as I know. The writing on the box is just marker pen.


----------



## Teejay

Paul K said:


> Could you not get it delivered to your work address. I'm sure if you share your passion of coffee with your boss they may turn a blind eye


Nope, it's a government building and deliveries are no allowed.


----------



## TonyCoffeeNewbie

Teejay said:


> Is everyone getting emails from DPD with delivery times? Did we establish if the contribution ID has any relationship to when it will come?
> 
> I'm 887.
> 
> I need to organise working from home on the day of delivery as I have no alternative addresses.


I didnt get any emails. Get the DPD app and it will let you know if they have your grinder and will let you arrange a specific day for delivery.


----------



## mctrials23

Just looked on the DPD app and they are expecting the Niche grinder today. Indiegogo has changed to fulfilled as well. I imagine that people who got in early and ordered the black ones will be getting them tomorrow! Exciting times!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Exciting times!


----------



## Banjoman

Ha ha - same text for me too, just a minute ago.

For info for others, I ordered white on 3 January and was no. 357


----------



## ATZ

Just had notification text for mine too! I think my order was in the 500's from memory.


----------



## rdpx

DavecUK said:


> Just remember the duty cycle if you're thinking of running a whole bag through in short order. I think running a bag through is not necessary (just 2 or 3 doubles) but if you have to, follow the duty cycle. I never had any problems when I was abuse testing, but I am sure none of you want to abuse test your own grinder.


Dave, could you explain what you mean by "remember the duty cycle" and also maybe why you think the burrs don't need seasoning?

I've got an old KG of beans that I was meaning to put through the new grinder as I understood that was just good practise with new burrs.

Thx.


----------



## aoxomoxoa

Ditto, mine's coming tomorrow. My order no. was in the 850s placed in November last year. My trusty old Rocky is about to be mothballed.


----------



## Djhep

I just heard that mine has arrived......

Unfortunately i won't be home until just before Christmas







.

Must be patient, but it won't be easy.

Anyhow, i will be glued to this thread to read all the reviews as they come in







.


----------



## Teejay

Banjoman said:


> Ha ha - same text for me too, just a minute ago.
> 
> For info for others, I ordered white on 3 January and was no. 357


Me three!!

For info, contributionID:887


----------



## DavecUK

rdpx said:


> Dave, could you explain what you mean by "remember the duty cycle" and also maybe why you think the burrs don't need seasoning?
> 
> I've got an old KG of beans that I was meaning to put through the new grinder as I understood that was just good practise with new burrs.
> 
> Thx.


I don't know how to explain the duty cycle better...It's in the Niche user guide if I remember rightly. However to save me typing, this is the duty cycle for the Sette (copied from web), hopefully that will help to explain a grinder duty cycle.



> *What is the duty cycle of the Sette?*
> 
> What is the duty cycle of the Sette? *DUTY CYCLE* ( Ratio of grinder use:rest)
> 
> The Sette is designed for a maximum of 2 lbs (1 kg) per day, with a duty cycle of 10%. Exceeding this duty cycle will not immediately break your Sette, however its longevity may be reduced if you exceed this. We want to remind everyone buying the Sette that it was designed for home use (short duration grinding).
> 
> Here is a general overview of the duty cycle of the Sette Series:
> 
> 
> Espresso (Settings 3-9): after grinding a dose of espresso (avg 18g), for approx 6 seconds, the 270Wi should rest for about 60 seconds. This is about what you would expect if making back-to-back shots on a one-group machine - 1 shot/minute
> 
> Brew (Setting 15-30): if grinding a batch for filter brew (of no more than 150g of coffee in a single operation - about the capacity of the included grounds bin) for approx 25 seconds. Then, the grinder should rest for about 250 seconds - 1 grind batch/4 mins


I didn't say the burrs did not need seasoning, they do definitely improve over the first 15KLg, the improvement is small but it's there. However, I think putting 1Kg through won't make a difference you will detect and to put 15kg through in a few days would be silly. The Mazzer burrs are very well finished from new and it will produce a really good grind, perhaps better than most grinders without seasoning....just grind 2 or 3 double shots and then start using it as normal. No need to over-think things, the designer/testers have done the work for you. I recommend just using it but as always it's just my opinion after almost a year using Niche grinders....so you just have to trust me....or not.

I also hope everyone calibrates the grinder as recommended, very important so you are all at least comparing apples and oranges (because everyone's idea of finger pressure is different), rather than apples and melons!


----------



## rdpx

DavecUK said:


> I don't know how to explain the duty cycle better...It's in the Niche user guide if I remember rightly. However to save me typing, this is the duty cycle for the Sette (copied from web), hopefully that will help to explain a grinder duty cycle.
> 
> I didn't say the burrs did not need seasoning, they do definitely improve over the first 15KLg, the improvement is small but it's there. However, I think putting 1Kg through won't make a difference you will detect and to put 15kg through in a few days would be silly. The Mazzer burrs are very well finished from new and it will produce a really good grind, perhaps better than most grinders without seasoning....just grind 2 or 3 double shots and then start using it as normal. No need to over-think things, the designer/testers have done the work for you. I recommend just using it but as always it's just my opinion after almost a year using Niche grinders....so you just have to trust me....or not.
> 
> I also hope everyone calibrates the grinder as recommended, very important so you are all at least comparing apples and oranges (because everyone's idea of finger pressure is different), rather than apples and melons!


Thanks that's good to know as without reading that I may well have just left it on and poured a kilo through it!


----------



## mctrials23

Isn't the main reason to "season" burrs to get a consistent output in a given amount of time. When you have a single dose grinder that shouldn't be an issue as you obviously just run it until all the beans are ground.


----------



## ajohn

rdpx said:


> Thanks that's good to know as without reading that I may well have just left it on and poured a kilo through it!


I don't think you can do that. From looking at the ebay listing. 50g max in one go and a magnetic interlock on the cover.









John

-


----------



## Dylan

mctrials23 said:


> Isn't the main reason to "season" burrs to get a consistent output in a given amount of time. When you have a single dose grinder that shouldn't be an issue as you obviously just run it until all the beans are ground.


I wouldn't say thats the main reason.

Seasoning takes the machined edge off the burrs, this results in a 'better' grind that produces a noticeable (more on some grinders than others) difference in grind quality. I think most would season the burrs to get the best out of a grinder as soon as possible.


----------



## Paul K

Teejay said:


> Nope, it's a government building and deliveries are no allowed.


Ach bummer!


----------



## BaggaZee

ajohn said:


> Did you order early when only white was available and then pay again for black later? I'd guess that there has been an admin error and perhaps all of the initial batch are white and black ones will arrive later.
> 
> Or maybe it is black in a white box as all of the boxes they have are marked white.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I did exactly that but Niche have come back to me and it's being swapped out for a Black one tomorrow.









I'm way too excited about this. The level of self-control required to NOT open the box has been a new experience!


----------



## Nikko

rdpx said:


> Dave, could you explain what you mean by "remember the duty cycle" and also maybe why you think the burrs don't need seasoning?
> 
> I've got an old KG of beans that I was meaning to put through the new grinder as I understood that was just good practise with new burrs.
> 
> Thx.


"duty cycling" in this case means that the grinder can only be operated for a limited period without the motor overheating and burning out


----------



## jonnycooper29

For anyone in the October delivery window, I had a reply saying they are just focusing on shipping the huge backlog of July-sept deliveries for the next two weeks before moving onto the October deliveries..

Makes sense really, but it doesn't mean I don't want my niche soon!!


----------



## J_Fo

aoxomoxoa said:


> Ditto, mine's coming tomorrow. My order no. was in the 850s placed in November last year. My trusty old Rocky is about to be mothballed.


Nice, thanks for that, my Indiegogo number is 952, still locked at the mo but shouldn't be too long now... Can. Not. Wait.


----------



## burmanm

jonnycooper29 said:


> For anyone in the October delivery window, I had a reply saying they are just focusing on shipping the huge backlog of July-sept deliveries for the next two weeks before moving onto the October deliveries..


Well, they haven't shipped my June one yet so would be weird if July/September are shipping already..


----------



## jonnycooper29

burmanm said:


> Well, they haven't shipped my June one yet so would be weird if July/September are shipping already..


Sorry, I meant june!


----------



## jonners

burmanm said:


> Well, they haven't shipped my June one yet so would be weird if July/September are shipping already..


I was apparently the first here to get one and mine was ordered early September. So there's no obvious logic to it.


----------



## jonnycooper29

jonners said:


> I was apparently the first here to get one and mine was ordered early September. So there's no obvious logic to it.


I ordered mine mid August, so I'm hoping mine won't be a huge wait then. However excited I am though, I wouldn't want to skip the queue if people ordered long before me!


----------



## richwade80

am now sick of refreshing and seeing 'CONTRIBUTION LOCKED'

i would prefer the anagram 'Bolton dick neurotic', or 'bonked councilor tit'

i found worse (better) ones, which i'm not sure i can post here.

bored bored bored....


----------



## richwade80

jonners said:


> I was apparently the first here to get one and mine was ordered early September. So there's no obvious logic to it.


i guess if you have 500 or so large boxes to post, the delivery company may want to deliver by region or some kind of logistical factor...

the discussion might go something like... 'ah'reet pet, am going up t'north wi' mi van like tomorrow, sha' wi start wi' them lot?'. 'yes, thanks. that would be spiffing. jog on now.'


----------



## DavecUK

I am actually viewing this thread with growing astonishment!


----------



## db8000

jonners said:


> I was apparently the first here to get one and mine was ordered early September. So there's no obvious logic to it.


 does your surname begin with 'A'?!?


----------



## tohenk2

jonners said:


> I was apparently the first here to get one and mine was ordered early September. So there's no obvious logic to it.


I think there might be difference between the order date (September) and the then stated date for delivery (June).

@DavecUK - by now I actually start looking like the Al Bundy picture you posted


----------



## Dayks

Calibrated the grinder earlier and now I am at around 14 for the pharmacie Rwandan from Dog and Hat.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Does the Niche come with instructions on how to calibrate it?


----------



## Dayks

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Does the Niche come with instructions on how to calibrate it?


Yes and it is very simple to do.


----------



## matharon

Looks much nicer and neater in reality than previous photos and video also arrived incredibly well packed.

Three 18g lots through initially as per suggestions and used these to dial in ending up at 11 for Chatswood 10s pre at 2bar and slowish ramp to 9 to get 2.5:1 after 40 sec o/all. First drinking shot as good as any from E92 to date.

Very impressed and many thanks to all involved especially DaveC who has guided so many on this forum with his very objective reviews and ever helpful advice.


----------



## Viernes

Rhys said:


> Yeah, pre-infusion on mine is probably closer to Slayer territory up to 3 bar (Slayer 'pre-brew' is 9 bar but flow is constricted to a trickle). Mine goes from practically zero line pressure (due to the built in pre-infusion chamber with the piston) and gently ramps up to 3 bar line pressure, which enables a finer grind as the puck isn't compressed as much at the beginning.


Are you usually pulling shots with 45" preinfusion??

How much time it takes to reach 3 bar? 10" - 15"? So are you using pre during 30" at 3 bar??? How much flow have the speedster at 3 bar??


----------



## Stevebee

matharon said:


> Three 18g lots through initially as per suggestions and used these to dial in ending up at 11 for Chatswood 10s pre at 2bar and slowish ramp to 9 to get 2.5:1 after 40 sec o/all. First drinking shot as good as any from E92 to date.


Just the sort of detail thats great to share. I also have a V so this will point me in the right direction once it arrives


----------



## lake_m

Any black Niche owners yet?


----------



## PPapa

lake_m said:


> Any black Niche owners yet?


To be delivered tomorrow - got a DPD notification.

Can (almost) relax now...


----------



## Headgoboomboom

lake_m said:


> Any black Niche owners yet?


Just got a black one in Pennsylvania! It looks fantastic, is very quiet and fast.


----------



## jonners

db8000 said:


> does your surname begin with 'A'?!?


Nope. Begins with 'U'. Ditch that theory then!


----------



## Rhys

Viernes said:


> Are you usually pulling shots with 45" preinfusion??
> 
> How much time it takes to reach 3 bar? 10" - 15"? So are you using pre during 30" at 3 bar??? How much flow have the speedster at 3 bar??


I've no idea about flow as I've not measured it. The ramp up to line pressure is about 14 seconds from zero, so the puck isn't compressed enabling a finer grind. After pre-infusion, the shot takes probably the same time as any other machine at 9 bar.

I've just pulled a shot ground on the Niche at setting 18 (LSOL). 1st gear 14 seconds to 3 bar. Read 24 seconds when fully saturated. 2nd gear 9 bar and 44 seconds in total to pull 38g from 18g coffee.

2nd shot ground at setting 14. 18g into 37g. 1st gear 14 seconds to 3 bar. Read 30 seconds to first drip after saturation. 2nd gear 9 bar and total time of 54 seconds.

3rd shot ground at setting 10. 18g into 38g. 1st gear 14 seconds to 3 bar. Read 45 seconds to first drip after saturation. 2nd gear bar and total time of 77 seconds.

4th shot ground at setting 20. Straight to 9 bar (2nd gear), with 5 seconds pre-infusion (due to pre-infusion chamber/piston) then ramps to full 9 bar. 18g into 38g in 28 seconds. Tbh, tastes pretty much the same.

Maybe the new LSOL isn't the best coffee to test times with as it's quite forgiving I think (plus I really shouldn't be downing 4 shots this late in the evening.







)


----------



## slamm

Picked mine up this evenening after yesterdays false start.. really pleased so far! Just time to post some pics and a quick first impression.. from photos I wasn't mad keen on the kitchen friendly design but in the flesh I actually like it. And it's very nicely put together, the finish and materials used are really good, it's a quality piece of kit. The cup is very nice with a good heft to it. Wood pieces smell nice(!) out of the box, reflect light or dark depending on rotation.. theres a bit of a rotation theme going on because apart from the cup base the wooden part of the feet actually rotate. Don't know why but its a nice touch! It look very at home next to the pav, I think these two were made for each other. Super happy so far.. very good first impression!


----------



## sdcycling

I received my grinder today. It does not grind. I put in a single bean as a test. The inner burr pushes a single bean around counter-clockwise, but the bean just bounces around. It does not cut the bean. Is it rotating in the right direction? I checked the calibration, then I backed off to a setting of 20. The nut at the top of the inner burr shows a slight eccentricity, but the inner burr itself looks in good alignment.


----------



## 4085

sdcycling said:


> I received my grinder today. It does not grind. I put in a single bean as a test. The inner burr pushes a single bean around counter-clockwise, but the bean just bounces around. It does not cut the bean. Is it rotating in the right direction? I checked the calibration, then I backed off to a setting of 20. The nut at the top of the inner burr shows a slight eccentricity, but the inner burr itself looks in good alignment.


Why would you put a single bean in? Whoever told you to do that was taking the piss! Weigh out your preferred dose, let it grind two amounts then drink the third one. There is no weight behind it to push a single bean through


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

sdcycling said:


> I received my grinder today. It does not grind. I put in a single bean as a test. The inner burr pushes a single bean around counter-clockwise, but the bean just bounces around. It does not cut the bean. Is it rotating in the right direction? I checked the calibration, then I backed off to a setting of 20. The nut at the top of the inner burr shows a slight eccentricity, but the inner burr itself looks in good alignment.


Just a thought fella, but have you tried putting a proper size dose in and seeing if that works?

I would have thought it'd need more weight to push down and work properly...


----------



## sdcycling

I first put in a 18g dose. I could not see anything with respect to the cutting action of the burrs, so I put in a single bean to see why the Niche was not grinding. It is rotating counter clockwise. Is that the correct rotation?


----------



## PPapa

A video might help.


----------



## sdcycling

A video of a 18g dose shows nothing except that the Niche is not grinding. Here is a video of a single-bean in the grinder. The inner burr is rotating counter-clockwise. Is that correct?


----------



## DavecUK

The inner burr should rotate clockwise....someone must have connected the motor connector on the wrong way round on the board and thus it runs backwards. It's a DC motor, so can easily run either way. It just needs connecting the right way. Niche can probably talk you through that because I logically assume the connectors must go in either way, I thought it could only go in one way (but can't remember)......no biggie. They will almost certainly see this post as well.


----------



## sdcycling

DavecUK said:


> The inner burr should rotate clockwise....someone must have connected the motor connector on the wrong way round on the board and thus it runs backwards. It's a DC motor, so can easily run either way. It just needs connecting the right way. Niche can probably talk you through that because I logically assume the connectors must go in either way, I thought it could only go in one way (but can't remember)......no biggie. They will almost certainly see this post as well.


Thank you. I sent a note to Niche. I am hopeful that they can guide me through fixing it.


----------



## cold war kid

That's not good.

It hasn't received even the most cursory of inspections after assembly. Hopefully it's an easy fix as Dave says and it doesn't need to go back.


----------



## greymda

the problem is there seems to be no QC tests after builds..


----------



## pj.walczak

That's unfortunate. Sorry to hear that sdcycling. I wonder if this was only your unit or there will be whole batch affected.

Lesson learned for Niche I hope, quality control is a must not nice to have. Mistakes happen, just should be avoided in the future.


----------



## PineappleMonkey

I am especially impressed with the packaging they did for this lil grinder. Down to the handle grab on the foam, very nice.



















I'm going to have to organize this area better....probably once this caffeine wears off


----------



## Stanic

greymda said:


> the problem is there seems to be no QC tests after builds..


perhaps because these are not covered by a guarantee..


----------



## jonnycooper29

Stanic said:


> perhaps because these are not covered by a guarantee..


I thought they were?


----------



## Stanic

I'm not sure but kickstarter financing usually means you get some product as a reward for backing


----------



## Inglorious Alf

They definitely are guaranteed...


----------



## Stanic

great, so should be no problems sending it back to get it repaired


----------



## PineappleMonkey

Direct from my manual.


----------



## Stanic

@sdcycling, you have 8 days to notice them in writing


----------



## moots

I expect there are quality control checks e.g. it turns on, burrs move, case on tight; just not to the extent of putting beans through.

Perhaps that option would add too much cost and/or time.


----------



## BaggaZee

Everyone following this thread:


----------



## Nishimiya

sdcycling said:


>


It might just be optics (something between the shape of the head of the screw, and the motion from the handheld camera), but doesn't that lower burr look like it may be a touch wobbly ?


----------



## 4085

In perspective, it is highly annoying to wait a long time for something to work its way through Indiegogo, but they got there. Then there was the issue of the cups.I rather suspect one has slipped through the net. The qc will be plug it in and make sure it turns on and spins. I doubt they go any further, Human error so its not go down the this is social media and I have an opinion and its disgusting that this has happened route please!


----------



## db8000

PineappleMonkey said:


> Direct from my manual.


in top of the guarantee, there is the Consumer Rights Act which will easily cover things like the mis-wiring of the motor.


----------



## Dylan

db8000 said:


> in top of the guarantee, there is the Consumer Rights Act which will easily cover things like the mis-wiring of the motor.


Not for crowdfunding campaigns. But they offer a garuntee so no problem.

---

And every product ever delivered to customers has failure/fault rates. Thorough QC of a product costs a lot of money and still misses faults that only become obvious with actual use. Niche are damned if they do, damned if they dont... They are getting hundreds of products out of the door as quickly as possible, unless it's your preferance to pay more for your grinder and wait longer for it then cut them some slack over a perfectly normal occurance like one of them having a fault. Find me any product launch (Aergrind/brewista scale etc) that doesn't have one or two failures.

What is important is how they deal with a fault when it arises, because they are inevitable.


----------



## Grahamg

Mine arrived at work same time as me, I came prepared with bungees to strap it to the bike for the way home, look forward to setting it up tonight ready for the morning routine (I don't do evening coffee!).


----------



## ajohn

Nishimiya said:


> It might just be optics (something between the shape of the head of the screw, and the motion from the handheld camera), but doesn't that lower burr look like it may be a touch wobbly ?


They look like they are rotating anti clockwise here after a few seconds in. They joys of compressed videos. I would be more inclined to trust my eyes.

John

-


----------



## 4085




----------



## ashcroc

dfk41 said:


> View attachment 36800


That reminds me of a song I saw on YouTube recently. 

Look forwards to seeing them pop up in the for sale section in six months or so!


----------



## Deejaysuave

The black Niche has arrived!


----------



## Beeroclock

Mine hasn't - not even sent yet...


----------



## Beeroclock

and as if by magic DPD message


----------



## Gatty

Beeroclock said:


> and as if by magic DPD message


Likewise! Fingers crossed arriving tomorrow!


----------



## AndyJH

Mine too, DPD app just pinged. Excited now


----------



## mctrials23

Fully expecting to watch the DPD van completely avoid my area and then send me a message later saying "sorry, we tried to deliver and you weren't in".

Its suggesting mine will be delivered between 12:52-13:52 but hes on delivery 27 and I'm 39 and its saying he is 2.5 hours away from me. This has happened a few times in the past where they just don't both to deliver to me and then blame me for not being in.


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

Hmmm my black is still stuck on Contribution Placed indiegogo status.

Order number is below 525 and being Black I expexted to be one of the first on the black bandwagon.


----------



## GingerBen

Tomorrow for mine. Excellent


----------



## lake_m

Black Niche being delivered tomorrow. Yay!


----------



## joey24dirt

mctrials23 said:


> Fully expecting to watch the DPD van completely avoid my area and then send me a message later saying "sorry, we tried to deliver and you weren't in".
> 
> Its suggesting mine will be delivered between 12:52-13:52 but hes on delivery 27 and I'm 39 and its saying he is 2.5 hours away from me. This has happened a few times in the past where they just don't both to deliver to me and then blame me for not being in.


Interesting to know where you live (area type) I live 100yards down a small private lane which they know they have to walk, hence why I get a lot of the same.


----------



## mctrials23

joey24dirt said:


> Interesting to know where you live (area type) I live 100yards down a small private lane which they know they have to walk, hence why I get a lot of the same.


I live in a block of flats by main roads. There is no excuse other than I am not near the start of their route. They get progressively more behind time and then eventually I assume they either ignore a block of deliveries to compensate or the driver starts marking deliveries as "tried and no one in" to save himself time.


----------



## Stevebee

Another Black one due tomorrow. Let's hope they all arrive safety (fingers and legs crossed)


----------



## mctrials23

It arrived!


----------



## Kyle T

Had my confirmation for delivery tomorrow. Black niche. I backed in March 2019. Can't wait.


----------



## jonnycooper29

Kyle T said:


> Had my confirmation for delivery tomorrow. Black niche. I backed in March 2019. Can't wait.


That's some pretty speedy delivery in that case!


----------



## Ebk71

jonnycooper29 said:


> That's some pretty speedy delivery in that case!


Backed on september 6 2017. Asked Niche if they could give an estimate. Response was they would be sending out every day for this and next week. But if I read this I can't help it to be a bit dissapointed that after more then a year I'm totally clueless when it arrives and somebody who backed 6 months later allready has his niche.


----------



## Teejay

Backed Dec 2017, arrived 04/10/2018.

Trying the settings that @dfk41 suggested with the Mystery 9 and the Sage DTP. Quiet, quick and easy compared to my current gear, Aergrind now 'demoted' to the the camper.


----------



## kennyboy993

Confirmed my black one arriving tomorrow.

So excited - installed the DPD app, now can't tell if I've instructed them to deliver to a local collection point!

No matter, either way I'll be ready!


----------



## Inglorious Alf

I think my phone is getting screen burn around a third of the way down the screen. If I peer closely I can just make out the words "CONTRIBUTION LOCKED".


----------



## DavidBondy

I was expecting a parcel from DPD. The driver knocked and I signed for it. I was gobsmacked when it proved to be my black Niche grinder and not the item I was expecting!

He was back a few minutes later with the parcel I WAS expecting so I'm quite content this afternoon. I'm not planning to use the Niche just yet but it's very nicely packaged and looks really nice in black!

David


----------



## BaggaZee

Woo-hoo!


----------



## 4085

DPD are a nightmare. I received an email last night confirming delivery today. Then this morning, an email cancelling it. The ap said they had problems with delivery in my area. I rang in to be told they could give me no more information and as I put the phone down, two boxes appeared. As soon as the delivery driver scans them onto his van, technology takes over......allegedly


----------



## Stanic

BaggaZee said:


> Woo-hoo!


the black looks really good! love it


----------



## mctrials23

Zwanger said:


> Everyone talking about delivery but nobody about grinding, taste.


There is another thread with people talking about that. This thread is full of people talking about delivery so I think DaveC wisely thought a new thread for actual information from people who have it in their hands would be a good idea.


----------



## ashcroc

Zwanger said:


> Everyone talking about delivery but nobody about grinding, taste.


That would be in the other niche thread here.


----------



## Inglorious Alf

Woop! For info, I ordered black in July, contribution #1132. I will henceforth be commenting on the other thread!


----------



## jonnycooper29

Inglorious Alf said:


> Woop! For info, I ordered black in July, contribution #1132. I will henceforth be commenting on the other thread!


Exciting! By the time I get mine there will be a serious amount of information on what I should be doing with it

Also interesting as I'm #1163, not that far behind you and I was expecting to wait about 2 more weeks!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

My wife has taken delivery of the Niche! Pics to follow


----------



## rdpx

Inglorious Alf said:


> Woop! For info, I ordered black in July, contribution #1132. I will henceforth be commenting on the other thread!


 @jonnycooper29 As I am sure has been mentioned already, the deliveries don't seem to have much relation to when they were ordered.

We ordered our white one back on March 26th - (#988) and it's still just showing as locked.

(Delivery address in London)


----------



## mctrials23

jonnycooper29 said:


> Exciting! By the time I get mine there will be a serious amount of information on what I should be doing with it


Thats one of the best things about it! It's so simple. Dial it in using the infinitely adjustable thread, put your beans in, close the lid and flick the switch.


----------



## PPapa

I am surprised no one live streamed "How I met my Niche?"!

I can be the first one - just off collecting a black one.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

Yay!! Had my notification from DPD. Mines arriving tomorrow! Can't wait!!


----------



## rdpx

PPapa said:


> I am surprised no one live streamed "How I met my Niche?"!
> 
> I can be the first one - just off collecting a black one.


Ah yes.

The joy of the unboxing video.

Please upload it to youtube.

The longer and more ponderously boring the better.

I had occasion to buy a new vacuum cleaner a couple of years back and came across this guy. It's hypnotic - he should enter himself in for the Turner Prize.





 sElaHq7_9&t=0s&index=81


----------



## Rscut

Few Mignons already in the for sale section!


----------



## Grahamg

Niche train arrives home (more reliable than dpd)...


----------



## greymda

a bit offtopic.

when i see you guys riding bikes as transport - it's like smth from another planet for me


----------



## PPapa

Really excited. 4th shot this night was awesome. First two choked DTP at 12 and 16, then backed off at 22 and then back to 21. Nice!

It's so quiet I thought it had some rocks or metals stuck when it stopped grinding.

It certainly looks miles better than in the photos. It's really geeky and satisfactory to see the burrs spinning as well.

I was planning to sink the shot, but it's so tasty!

... is anyone after a Ceado E37s?


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

All this talk and reports of great shots and tasting so much better etc... I'm just worried that it may be a bit of a placebo effect going on? I sincerely hope not obviously!


----------



## DavecUK

Rscut said:


> Few Mignons already in the for sale section!


Yeah, well that's not unexpected anyone with a Mignon who ordered a Niche doesn't really need it any more. I suspect quite a few more grinders up to and including E37S will be for sale soon. I suspect with most people once they start using the Niche and getting used to it, it's not easy to go back to something else..



Deeez Nuuutz said:


> All this talk and reports of great shots and tasting so much better etc... I'm just worried that it may be a bit of a placebo effect going on? I sincerely hope not obviously!


When you get yours, you can find out for yourself. Ive used one for almost a year and don't use my E92 any more, have not done so for 6 or 7 months.


----------



## PPapa

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> All this talk and reports of great shots and tasting so much better etc... I'm just worried that it may be a bit of a placebo effect going on? I sincerely hope not obviously!


It could be. E37s can undoubtedly produce good results, but it becomes quite wasteful since I've been drinking a cup of espresso a day. When I had Santos No4, I wouldn't drink coffee some early mornings as it could wake up the whole house. I am also looking forward to get back to brewed. As a result, I am happy since it ticks off so many boxes that I am okay to sacrifice some marginal gains in the taste.

The only issue so far is the cable. It's 90cm long and doesn't quite reach where I wanted it to be, but it's easily solvable by more extension leads around! My work/personal desk extends the kitchen, so there's lots of cables going around.


----------



## Deeez Nuuutz

DavecUK said:


> When you get yours, you can find out for yourself. Ive used one for almost a year and don't use my E92 any more, have not done so for 6 or 7 months.


Thats quite a testament, Dave. I believe you though. It's just when you hear of people with already renowned and very good grinders saying that the Niche is better etc, I wonder whether people are maybe getting caught up in the hype that's all.

I purchased the Niche solely on your review and user experiences really as many others did I'm sure, so I do believe what you say ;-)



PPapa said:


> It could be. E37s can undoubtedly produce good results, but it becomes quite wasteful since I've been drinking a cup of espresso a day. When I had Santos No4, I wouldn't drink coffee some early mornings as it could wake up the whole house. I am also looking forward to get back to brewed. As a result, I am happy since it ticks off so many boxes that I am okay to sacrifice some marginal gains in the taste.
> 
> The only issue so far is the cable. It's 90cm long and doesn't quite reach where I wanted it to be, but it's easily solvable by more extension leads around! My work/personal desk extends the kitchen, so there's lots of cables going around.


Thats also good to hear (or not) lol that it's quiet.

Mine ice is being delivered tomorrow but unfortunately I've got to go away for work till Monday so won't have a chance to play.

Needless to say I'll be reading this thread with excitement...


----------



## Stevebee

Currently using a Compak E10, 68mm conical with 350 rpm, so not expecting an improvement in grind.

However, changing between beans, virtually no retention, no need to change grind depending on qty of beans in hopper - all things i'm looking forward to. The small size, footprint, noise and kitchen friendliness will also please swmbo.

Will be using using as a decaf grinder ar farmers markets at the weekend as well so can't wait to it arrives tomorrow.


----------



## jeebsy

Stevebee said:


> Currently using a Compak E10, 68mm conical with 350 rpm, so not expecting an improvement in grind.
> 
> However, changing between beans, virtually no retention, no need to change grind depending on qty of beans in hopper - all things i'm looking forward to.


I'm interested to try one - don't think it'll necessarily perform better in the cup than the big shop grinders, but in every other aspect it's going to be more suitable for home use.


----------



## CoffeeChris

Goes nicely with the Niche kettle and toaster


----------



## mimaros

Hi huys!

This is my first post , yet I'm a long time lurker of that particular thread.

I'm still in the "CONTRIBUTION LOCKED" phase - it seems like an eternity - I wonder if there is a pdf of the user manual laying around somewhere ?

Probably should ask Niche, but couldn't resist the opportunity to say "hi!"

Cheers !


----------



## DavecUK

Just don't tip your beans in the kettle and water in the grinder during the morning wake up period!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Arrived it has!


----------



## hifimacianer

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Arrived it has!


Wohoo, enjoy it!

I see a Wilfa Svart grinder in the pic too. Do you want to replace it with the Niche for pour over grinds?

A comparison between the two would be great (for filter).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

hifimacianer said:


> Wohoo, enjoy it!
> 
> I see a Wilfa Svart grinder in the pic too. Do you want to replace it with the Niche for pour over grinds?
> 
> A comparison between the two would be great (for filter).


Yeah, and a Feld2 in the cupboard 

I can't have both in the kitchen, as my wife will have a fit. But I'll try a pour over over the weekend and will report back.

The idea is that I'll use the Feld2 for pour overs, or just dial the Niche back and forwards... will see.


----------



## marchaos

Another recipient today! Niche next to the vario.

Only had 1 cup, but compared to the vario - wow. The wife also approved of the style







More than I can say about the Profitec. Apparently it looks like Paul from the Wonder Years


----------



## Inglorious Alf

marchaos said:


> View attachment 36807
> 
> 
> Another recipient today! Niche next to the vario.
> 
> Only had 1 cup, but compared to the vario - wow. The wife also approved of the style
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> More than I can say about the Profitec. Apparently it looks like Paul from the Wonder Years


Mine is to replace a Vario too (already sold on eBay) so I'm glad to hear this! I originally got the Vario due to limited counter space so to see the Niche take up even less space is great. Will post a proud father pic tomorrow when it arrives!


----------



## Stanic

CoffeeChris said:


> Goes nicely with the Niche kettle and toaster


classy!


----------



## Nishimiya

ajohn said:


> They look like they are rotating anti clockwise here after a few seconds in. They joys of compressed videos. I would be more inclined to trust my eyes.
> 
> John
> 
> -


The counter-clockwise rotation thing has nothing to do with "compressed videos". It happens with film as well, and it's well-known enough that it's named (it's called





, and no, that name doesn't come from a hipster filming with his digital Leica at a renaissance fair







). Wobbly bushing effect unfortunately doesn't exist that I know of. What we're seeing here might be jello effect from a CMOS (and that has nothing to do with "compression"), a nut that isn't exactly centred, or something else, hence the question. I'll give it a look once my grinder gets here, though


----------



## hifimacianer

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yeah, and a Feld2 in the cupboard
> 
> I can't have both in the kitchen, as my wife will have a fit. But I'll try a pour over over the weekend and will report back.
> 
> The idea is that I'll use the Feld2 for pour overs, or just dial the Niche back and forwards... will see.


A comparison to the Feld would also be great.

I actually use a Helor 101, that sits somewhere between Feld and Comandante, qualiy wise (for filter).

And I Look for a electric grinder that (at least) equals the grind qualiy, but there are not many good options that don't break the bank. Wilfa on the lower end, Vario with steel burrs, maybe the Vietuoso, and hopefully the Niche


----------



## kiisupai

New member, signed up just because I ordered the Niche as well. Is there anyone else here who has not received a tracking ID or anything yet? Or did some of you receive the Niche without ever getting a tracking ID or other confirmation?

I backed in May but have yet to hear a peep from Niche...


----------



## richwade80

Father Nichemas is finally coming. He's called Shaun.

Today I'll be mostly buying top up coffee from Colonna & Smalls for the weekend ahead.

Oh and my final MC2 coffee was made to Rhythm is a Dancer.

It's all good.


----------



## Ebk71

kiisupai said:


> New member, signed up just because I ordered the Niche as well. Is there anyone else here who has not received a tracking ID or anything yet? Or did some of you receive the Niche without ever getting a tracking ID or other confirmation?
> 
> I backed in May but have yet to hear a peep from Niche...


Backed in sept 2017. I asked and reply is they are sending batches out every day. I don't like the way they are doing this.


----------



## kiisupai

Ebk71 said:


> Backed in sept 2017. I asked and reply is they are sending batches out every day. I don't like the way they are doing this.


Ahh, I guess that means backer date means little. That's a shame. I was hoping to have mine to play with by this weekend, but that does seem unlikely to happen now.


----------



## 4085

The white were sent out first, closely followed by the blacks. Of course there is a running order and it is stupid to suggest there us not. Once DPD collect it is scanned onto the system, then when the driver scans it onto his van you get the second notice saying you have a time slot. I got none of that yesterday and lo and behold it turned up at 9.50....have faith


----------



## mctrials23

dfk41 said:


> The white were sent out first, closely followed by the blacks. Of course there is a running order and it is stupid to suggest there us not. Once DPD collect it is scanned onto the system, then when the driver scans it onto his van you get the second notice saying you have a time slot. I got none of that yesterday and lo and behold it turned up at 9.50....have faith


That makes sense but I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who backed it much later than September last year have their already. Both black and white. I was one of the first backers and lucky enough to get my black one yesterday but others don't seem to have been so lucky.


----------



## Rock Carver

If it's any consolation, I only backed Niche two weeks ago and my status is still showing 'contribution placed'. However, had I found out about Niche earlier, I would definitely have backed it. I was just about to order a Mignon when I stumbled across the Niche project. I decided to go with the Niche having read all the posts on here. The down side is i'm stuck with my modified Cuisinart to get a decent espresso (sic) until the Niche arrives.


----------



## Grahamg

mctrials23 said:


> That makes sense but I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who backed it much later than September last year have their already. Both black and white. I was one of the first backers and lucky enough to get my black one yesterday but others don't seem to have been so lucky.


There's always going to be some logistical shenanigans, the perk of backing early was the lower price, trying to get them sent out in the order they were backed was probably at odds any sensible method of working to get them dispatcher.

On a side note, I got a rusty cup in with mine, will drop them an email- was packed wet so it's pitted around the top.


----------



## Phil104

Can I respectfully suggest that some of the comments about Niche despatch and delivery are taken onto the Forum rants page...


----------



## iulianato

I backed in March a black and is due for delivery today. Just in time for the weekend play.

Dream come true for some and exciting times for most. Will see how it will live next to the Peak.


----------



## mctrials23

Grahamg said:


> On a side note, I got a rusty cup in with mine, will drop them an email- was packed wet so it's pitted around the top.


Thats the only thing that isn't quite up to scratch in my opinion. My grind cup isn't rusty at all but the extrusion about 1cm from the top isn't completely uniform and looks like it was done in a few sections. The rest of the cup is very nice however including the logo on the bottom.


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

mctrials23 said:


> That makes sense but I'm pretty sure that a lot of people who backed it much later than September last year have their already. Both black and white. I was one of the first backers and lucky enough to get my black one yesterday but others don't seem to have been so lucky.


Out of interest when did the black become avaliable to order?


----------



## marchaos

FuzzyFeltDeath said:


> Out of interest when did the black become avaliable to order?


Not sure when, but I believe a significant number of people that had ordered white switched to the black version, which might have something to do with why some people are getting a black version now.


----------



## DavidBondy

marchaos said:


> Not sure when, but I believe a significant number of people that had ordered white switched to the black version, which might have something to do with why some people are getting a black version now.


I did - and even paid an extra £25 to change from white to black! Mine arrived yesterday.


----------



## jlarkin

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> All this talk and reports of great shots and tasting so much better etc... I'm just worried that it may be a bit of a placebo effect going on?


Even if it is, as long as it doesn't wear off it's all good!


----------



## dan1502

Arrived. I think it was July I ordered. Just ran two shots through it then realised I'd not taken the coffee machine out of standby so will have to wait a few minutes for the third. Some initial retention on the first two but that's to be expected.


----------



## bronc

Stevebee said:


> Currently using a Compak E10, 68mm conical with 350 rpm, so not expecting an improvement in grind.
> 
> However, changing between beans, virtually no retention, no need to change grind depending on qty of beans in hopper - all things i'm looking forward to. The small size, footprint, noise and kitchen friendliness will also please swmbo.
> 
> Will be using using as a decaf grinder ar farmers markets at the weekend as well so can't wait to it arrives tomorrow.


I'm in the same boat. If it can make coffee nearly as good as my Mazzer Royal, I:m buying one! I need more countertop space these days..


----------



## J_Fo

Super super excited to see I've just got a notification from DPD!

Unfortunately it's an advert asking if I want to join the DPD design space.

Aaaaaarrrrrggggghhhhhhh!!!!!


----------



## Kyle T

Mine turned up at my local shop before 9am this morning! Picked it up about an hour ago, here's a few shots along side my Sette 270W


----------



## Kyle T

And then one more in my little coffee section I designed when we did the kitchen last month.


----------



## aoxomoxoa

And here's mine...


----------



## Viernes

Kyle T said:


> Mine turned up at my local shop before 9am this morning! Picked it up about an hour ago, here's a few shots along side my Sette 270W


The black looks great! Although in my opinion that wood does not match well.

How it tastes compared to the sette? Did you try it?


----------



## Kyle T

Viernes said:


> The black looks great! Although in my opinion that wood does not match well.
> 
> How it tastes compared to the sette? Did you try it?


Yes I've tried it, got it dialled in enough to make myself a coffee as good as I normally get with my Sette so with more playing around it should hopefully improve.


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

Update 43

If your contribution ID is between 1136 and 1202, can we ask you to give it one final check as we will be locking them in on Monday. We have been shipping out grinders everyday this week and we plan to do the same thing next week. We really appreciate all of your patience and your grinders will be with you very soon.


----------



## jonnycooper29

FuzzyFeltDeath said:


> Update 43
> 
> If your contribution ID is between 1136 and 1202, can we ask you to give it one final check as we will be locking them in on Monday. We have been shipping out grinders everyday this week and we plan to do the same thing next week. We really appreciate all of your patience and your grinders will be with you very soon.


I fall in that so ??. Just tried some light/medium roast from Adam &russell that my mum gave me when she stayed recently. My Aergrind really struggles with espresso with lighter beans, the shot absolutely gushed out.

I can't wait for the Niche to help me sort this out


----------



## AndyJH

Mine arrived this morning  All working great but I had one issue with the packaging, a shard of glass was stuck to the side which went straight in my finger when I separated the two half's 










Just be careful when handling the packaging. Pretty sure this will be a complete one off but thought I would proved a heads up.


----------



## Jony

Those little cuts are a nightmare!! haha


----------



## cold war kid

Kyle T said:


> Mine turned up at my local shop before 9am this morning! Picked it up about an hour ago, here's a few shots along side my Sette 270W


It would be good to hear the comparison between the two when you get used to the Niche.

I see the Sette as more of a direct competitor than most other grinders that are mentioned and if the build on the Niche is better, it's quieter and the grind is comparable, jobs a good un as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## AndyJH

Jony said:


> Those little cuts are a nightmare!! haha


More the problem was trying to stop the blood getting on my new Niche!  Glass cuts produce a good blood flow and I wasn't leaving the Niche in its box, had to be playing with ?

All good now 

So far I've found that this looks great, meets my expectations and has massively simplified my workflow  Happy camper


----------



## db8000

kiisupai said:


> New member, signed up just because I ordered the Niche as well. Is there anyone else here who has not received a tracking ID or anything yet? Or did some of you receive the Niche without ever getting a tracking ID or other confirmation?
> 
> I backed in May but have yet to hear a peep from Niche...


i ordered a black in December I think. It arrived at 8.09 this morning. I received an email at 8.06am informing me of the delivery slot. I'm on my way home now to unpack it.

Basically, don't expect prior notification!


----------



## Goram

DPD are the worst. Been tracking my parcel round the west midlands all day and now not available till Monday


----------



## DavecUK

AndyJH said:


> More the problem was trying to stop the blood getting on my new Niche!  Glass cuts produce a good blood flow and I wasn't leaving the Niche in its box, had to be playing with 藍
> 
> All good now


I wonder how the glass got into the packaging....there is no glass at all used in the Niche construction?

Looks great though (i'll put me teeth back in) and the Niche is nice as well!


----------



## AndyJH

DavecUK said:


> I wonder how the glass got into the packaging....there is no glass at all used in the Niche construction?
> 
> Looks great though (i'll put me teeth back in) and the Niche is nice as well!


No idea and obviously a surprise. Hopefully a one off event though


----------



## Rscut

Used 3 times:

18g in 17.87g out

18g in 17.87g out

18g in 17.97g out

first shot tasted the best at about 18 on the grind setting.


----------



## Banjoman

Goram said:


> DPD are the worst. Been tracking my parcel round the west midlands all day and now not available till Monday


Similar experience for me,

- text on Wednesday to say it will be delivered Thursday between 06.00am and 10.00 pm

- same text on Thursday morning and website showed same, so I was expecting it all day Thursday until 10 pm

- then at 10pm Thursday, the website changed to show delivery on Friday between 06.00am and 10.00 pm

- Thankfully on Friday, the website gave me a time slot of between 2pm and 3pm roughly, and it duly arrived.

Their fancy website gives the veneer of great customer service, but like so many large companies, their execution, to use a technical term, is pants!


----------



## ATZ

This should be about the grinder guys.

DPD in my experience of lots of mail order are solid and deliver 9/10 times when they said they would. You can't say this for other delivery companies.


----------



## Kyle T

cold war kid said:


> It would be good to hear the comparison between the two when you get used to the Niche.
> 
> I see the Sette as more of a direct competitor than most other grinders that are mentioned and if the build on the Niche is better, it's quieter and the grind is comparable, jobs a good un as far as I'm concerned.


Made a few early comparisons in the other Niche thread.


----------



## richwade80

She's finally landed!

Installed and calibrated, but unused this late in the evening.

This weekend I will mostly be wired.


----------



## Marmottefarcie

Thanks to Niche for making this fantastic grinder and to DaveCUK for his detailed review and opinion which steered a lot of us to the Niche grinder in the first place.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

With the weekend is upon us. I'm looking forward to hearing how the Niche compares to other grinders in the cup.


----------



## ATZ

urbanbumpkin said:


> With the weekend is upon us. I'm looking forward to hearing how the Niche compares to other grinders in the cup.


I can tell you now it beats my SJ.

More body and flavour to the shot.


----------



## olivier

urbanbumpkin said:


> With the weekend is upon us. I'm looking forward to hearing how the Niche compares to other grinders in the cup.


Posted in the user experience thread, but in a nutshell: miles ahead of my Eureka Mignon. Tremendous improvement in body, and more clarity of flavours, and seems more forgiving as well as even the not well dialed-in shot tasted OK. I didn't expect this upgrade to make such a huge difference, although I have no experience with high-end grinders so cannot affirm everyone will be better of with this one.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Good to hear. Have either of you used a conical burr grinder previously?


----------



## ATZ

urbanbumpkin said:


> Good to hear. Have either of you used a conical burr grinder previously?


None from me, just lower end commercial flats


----------



## olivier

Same, the only other grinder I've used is the Eureka Mignon.


----------



## lake_m

Banjoman said:


> Similar experience for me,
> 
> - text on Wednesday to say it will be delivered Thursday between 06.00am and 10.00 pm
> 
> - same text on Thursday morning and website showed same, so I was expecting it all day Thursday until 10 pm
> 
> - then at 10pm Thursday, the website changed to show delivery on Friday between 06.00am and 10.00 pm
> 
> - Thankfully on Friday, the website gave me a time slot of between 2pm and 3pm roughly, and it duly arrived.
> 
> Their fancy website gives the veneer of great customer service, but like so many large companies, their execution, to use a technical term, is pants!


I waited this long so a couple more days won't hurt.

I had a 4 TIL 5 time slot Friday, so waited in.

At 10pm they sent a text to say sorry, it's now Monday. FFS.

Rang them and asked if they would deliver it today? - "no".

Ask if I could drive the 10 minutes to the depot and pick it up? "no"

Double FFS.


----------



## salty

The Wilfa got a new friend yesterday and have to say I love it. Run 6 doses through it so far and everything that @DavecUK reported is true in terms of speed, zero retention and all round excellence. And it's so small! Haven't told the Wilfa yet but I suspect that the Niche will soon be the only grinder on the counter.


----------



## 9719

Mine arrived yesterday and upon first seeing it Mrs *** announced it's bigger than she had thought, long long time since I last heard that  and then went on to announce I had two odd front feet never had that one before and I'm still pondering over it


----------



## urbanbumpkin

olivier said:


> Posted in the user experience thread, .


 Sorry my bad, didn't realize there was one


----------



## richwade80

Anyone else noticed a recent spike in backings on Indiegogo? Yes, I'm still checking even though I got mine...

It does seem like every user review is overwhelmingly positive though.

Hopefully it keeps going. It is a 'Niche' market, but they surely don't have much competition. Strike while the iron's hot and all!


----------



## kennyboy993

salty said:


> The Wilfa got a new friend yesterday and have to say I love it. Run 6 doses through it so far and everything that @DavecUK reported is true in terms of speed, zero retention and all round excellence. And it's so small! Haven't told the Wilfa yet but I suspect that the Niche will soon be the only grinder on the counter.


The Wilfa is dead, long live the Wilfa.

After 2 days with mine I won't surprised if this thing completely disrupts the home grinder market - it's astonishing in every way.


----------



## kennyboy993

lake_m said:


> I waited this long so a couple more days won't hurt.
> 
> I had a 4 TIL 5 time slot Friday, so waited in.
> 
> At 10pm they sent a text to say sorry, it's now Monday. FFS.
> 
> Rang them and asked if they would deliver it today? - "no".
> 
> Ask if I could drive the 10 minutes to the depot and pick it up? "no"
> 
> Double FFS.


Double FFS - pure class


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

********** said:


> Mine arrived yesterday and upon first seeing it Mrs *** announced it's bigger than she had thought, long long time since I last heard that  and then went on to announce I had two odd front feet never had that one before and I'm still pondering over it


I've asked my missus: "So, did you like the new coffee grinder?". Her reply: "Didn't notice it".


----------



## matomoto

FuzzyFeltDeath said:


> Update 43
> 
> If your contribution ID is between 1136 and 1202, can we ask you to give it one final check as we will be locking them in on Monday. We have been shipping out grinders everyday this week and we plan to do the same thing next week. We really appreciate all of your patience and your grinders will be with you very soon.


And the previous orders when they are sent?

Order 1070 locked

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## Goram

lake_m said:


> I waited this long so a couple more days won't hurt.
> 
> I had a 4 TIL 5 time slot Friday, so waited in.
> 
> At 10pm they sent a text to say sorry, it's now Monday. FFS.
> 
> Rang them and asked if they would deliver it today? - "no".
> 
> Ask if I could drive the 10 minutes to the depot and pick it up? "no"
> 
> Double FFS.


The exact same here. But yes have waited this long, Monday it is. Hopefully.


----------



## ashcroc

kennyboy993 said:


> The Wilfa is dead, long live the Wilfa.
> 
> After 2 days with mine I won't surprised if this thing completely disrupts the home grinder market - it's astonishing in every way.


It'll be mighty interesting to see what the competition come up with to protect their share of the market.


----------



## lake_m

Goram said:


> The exact same here. But yes have waited this long, Monday it is. Hopefully.


Would you Adam and Eve it!!


----------



## kennyboy993

lake_m said:


> Would you Adam and Eve it!!


Double chuffed! ;-)


----------



## MalcolmH

Mine arrived a couple of days ago, its just brilliant in all respects, the packing, the looks, the simplicity. I think its going to be a design classic. Very elegant. I think its the nodding look that does it. Brings a smile

One tiny, teeny, minuscule issue: The wood which the cup sits on is a different shade. I know, silly but theres nothing else. Danish oil will probably fix.


----------



## Tsangpa

I doubt it will disrupt the home grinder market at all.

At £500 rrp it's over four times the price of a Wilfa. If you want brewed coffee you'll likely stay with the Wilfa.

For espresso it's 2.5x the cost of the Sage grinder pro so it's unlikely to disrupt that market.

It won't do anything to disrupt the commercial market.

The only market it's likely to disrupt are the people who demand more from their grinders and currently buy second hand commercial grinders - Mazzers and the like, which ironically is a niche market.

The main home market is dominated by brands pitching offerings between £100 - £200, they won't see this as any competition to their market share in the slightest.

It's a great product but there aren't tens of thousands of people prepared to spend £500 on a coffee grinder imho.



ashcroc said:


> It'll be mighty interesting to see what the competition come up with to protect their share of the market.


----------



## Dylan

Tsangpa said:


> I doubt it will disrupt the home grinder market at all.
> 
> At £500 rrp it's over four times the price of a Wilfa. If you want brewed coffee you'll likely stay with the Wilfa.
> 
> For espresso it's 2.5x the cost of the Sage grinder pro so it's unlikely to disrupt that market.
> 
> It won't do anything to disrupt the commercial market.
> 
> The only market it's likely to disrupt are the people who demand more from their grinders and currently buy second hand commercial grinders - Mazzers and the like, which ironically is a niche market.
> 
> The main home market is dominated by brands pitching offerings between £100 - £200, they won't see this as any competition to their market share in the slightest.
> 
> It's a great product but there aren't tens of thousands of people prepared to spend £500 on a coffee grinder imho.


Then why have Eureka maintained their range of Mignon grinders? They aren't £500, but they are also more expensive than the 'markets' you mention. There is also Baratza's range of grinders which span many price points which they are obviously selling enough of to keep iterating and designing new ones, the Sette being an obvious example of something at a similar price point.

There is also no reason coffee shops wouldn't be interested in a grinder like the Niche for speciality coffees that they sell less of a day, with little to no retention they could potentially have one grinder for multiple beans.

edit: I should mention that your right to say it wont disrupt the market of sub £200 espresso machines and sub £200 grinders, but there is clearly a market for the more wealthy home market that learns how to make great coffee. A good example of this is Sage who sell the DB machine and the new Oracle, both a very expensive machines (relatively) aimed at a more discerning/wealthy market.

With the right marketing and the right people praising the grinder it will definitely carve out its share of the market. I would expect it to eat the market share of grinders like the Eureka Atom which is bought by both coffee shops and home enthusiasts but doesn't cost thousands.


----------



## kennyboy993

Tsangpa said:


> I doubt it will disrupt the home grinder market at all.
> 
> At £500 rrp it's over four times the price of a Wilfa. If you want brewed coffee you'll likely stay with the Wilfa.
> 
> For espresso it's 2.5x the cost of the Sage grinder pro so it's unlikely to disrupt that market.
> 
> It won't do anything to disrupt the commercial market.
> 
> The only market it's likely to disrupt are the people who demand more from their grinders and currently buy second hand commercial grinders - Mazzers and the like, which ironically is a niche market.
> 
> The main home market is dominated by brands pitching offerings between £100 - £200, they won't see this as any competition to their market share in the slightest.
> 
> It's a great product but there aren't tens of thousands of people prepared to spend £500 on a coffee grinder imho.


Disrupting the market doesn't necessarily mean stealing huge chunks of it....... For example home grinder manufacturers may soon be more inclined to design practical single dosing solutions....


----------



## MalcolmH

I'd be very surprised if companies didn't try to copy and match the Niche, I think it is a game changer. If your spending £1000+ on an espresso machine and the advice is spend as much if not more on a grinder to get the maximum benefit from that machine then you'd be daft not too consider the Niche. Ive not read any negative comments yet.


----------



## Goram

lake_m said:


> Would you Adam and Eve it!!


fantastic news! Might have to stay inside all day just in case.... shame as there happens to be mountains of rugby on the tv.


----------



## DavecUK

It's an interesting view. I personally do think it will be a disruptor. It has a huge potential because manufacturers will take a while to wake up to what's happened. Remember most of the big grinder manufacturers are not interested in listening to users, just the retailers. It seems like the same thing, but trust me it isn't.

Areas where I see it performing well.

1. If I had a commercial coffee shop, would I use it.....me personally yes, if I had guest beans and then one commercial for the bread and butter. If I was real speciality, yes I might buy 3 or 4 of them and run like that if the volumes were relatively low. If one breaks, I simply buy another. There are ways to make a commercial proposition, as well as perhaps making say a a Niche 1 just for the commercial market. 73mm burrs, tiny bit bigger, different motor etc.. same principle.

2. Roastery for a sample grinder, cupping grinder....yes absolutely, you are going to be grinding all sorts of different coffees. I think every small artisan roaster should have one. They just don't realise it yet

3. If I am a travelling trainer, or coffee bean sales person...absolutely. What better than knowing you have a lightweight grinder with heavy weight guaranteed good performance with you to train on or showcase the beans you are selling.

4. You have a small coffee cart or operation out the back of a mini etc..absolutely, run this puppy off a voltage converter and your golden. One HUGE advantage, doesn't have the big start-up current of a grinder with an AC induction motor..BIG performance small size, portability and power requirements (approx 160W max). Also not limited to just one bean.

5. Home use - we all know why.

The key point is we have something unique that punches well above it's weight performance wise, retains nothing, is simple and easy to use. There are certain markets where this will really fly, especially where people are limited in space (flats), and mobile. £500 seems a lot, but when you compare it to the performance of something that's 200 or even £300, you absolutely know it's worth spending the extra money


----------



## cold war kid

Tsangpa said:


> I doubt it will disrupt the home grinder market at all.
> 
> At £500 rrp it's over four times the price of a Wilfa. If you want brewed coffee you'll likely stay with the Wilfa.
> 
> For espresso it's 2.5x the cost of the Sage grinder pro so it's unlikely to disrupt that market.
> 
> It won't do anything to disrupt the commercial market.
> 
> The only market it's likely to disrupt are the people who demand more from their grinders and currently buy second hand commercial grinders - Mazzers and the like, which ironically is a niche market.
> 
> The main home market is dominated by brands pitching offerings between £100 - £200, they won't see this as any competition to their market share in the slightest.
> 
> It's a great product but there aren't tens of thousands of people prepared to spend £500 on a coffee grinder imho.


Very true, but it has only one like for like competitor at it's price point that I can think of and that is the Sette.

By all accounts it's quieter, generally considered more aesthetically pleasing, better built, has a bigger burr set and is at least a match in the cup. There is already a proven market at this price point and I think it will do really well, although as you say it is a niche sector but then again so is any prosumer espresso machine really. Mine hasn't come yet, but going off what others say, if you can live without a portafilter holder and don't mind doing the weighing yourself ( did Baratza ever sort the scales issues out ?), then I cant see a reason why anybody would choose the Sette over the Niche for espresso.


----------



## 4085

It most certainly is going to affect the price of second hand grinders though. it is a fact that the majority of home users prefer to single dose for a variety of reasons (Personally I do not) so there is not another grinder anywhere near it for that (that will cover brewed and espresso). A dedicated grinder such as the Wilfa is fair game, but a Wilfa does not have the most recognised burr set in the market that actually costs more than a Wilfa does as a unit.....commercial grinders will end up staying in cafes.....


----------



## cold war kid

DavecUK said:


> The key point is we have something unique that punches well above it's weight performance wise, retains nothing, is simple and easy to use. There are certain markets where this will really fly, especially where people are limited in space (flats), and mobile. £500 seems a lot, but when you compare it to the performance of something that's 200 or even £300, you absolutely know it's worth spending the extra money


I absolutely agree with this. The £440 that I paid for this grinder was a lot of money for me, so much so that I had to put it on an interest free card, but we should never underestimate peoples wealth. There's a lot of people out there who this will fit the bill for and they can comfortably afford it.


----------



## Rob1

Tsangpa said:


> I doubt it will disrupt the home grinder market at all.
> 
> At £500 rrp it's over four times the price of a Wilfa. If you want brewed coffee you'll likely stay with the Wilfa.
> 
> For espresso it's 2.5x the cost of the Sage grinder pro so it's unlikely to disrupt that market.
> 
> It won't do anything to disrupt the commercial market.
> 
> The only market it's likely to disrupt are the people who demand more from their grinders and currently buy second hand commercial grinders - Mazzers and the like, which ironically is a niche market.
> 
> The main home market is dominated by brands pitching offerings between £100 - £200, they won't see this as any competition to their market share in the slightest.
> 
> It's a great product but there aren't tens of thousands of people prepared to spend £500 on a coffee grinder imho.


You're comparing bottom rung espresso grinders with one that competes with titans. Comparing to the Mignon and others that retail for £300+ you can see it as a real challenger. In its class (large conical) it's unchallenged with the exception of a few hand grinders.

It will disrupt the ex-commercial home market to an extent. People just looking for "a grinder" and don't care if it's conical or flat might be more likely to go for a new Niche for £500 than a used Royal or the like for £350-400.


----------



## MildredM

Rob1 said:


> You're comparing bottom rung espresso grinders with one that competes with titans. Comparing to the Mignon and others that retail for £300+ you can see it as a real challenger. In its class (large conical) it's unchallenged with the exception of a few hand grinders.


It sounds like the name they came up with was spot on then! There was a gap and it has been filled perfectly, by the sound of things.


----------



## kennyboy993

The Sette isn't single dose though is it - I don't know what weight of beans it needs on top to ensure decent grinding though must be something?

For me, that doesn't make it a competitor.

For the price point there isn't anything.

I know some owners of really expensive Webbers, monoliths etc are saying they shouldn't be compared though IMO they are the only competitor to Niche in terms of user experience and target use cases ie home user 18g of coffee out of the vacuum sealed container, in to the machine and boom - 18g of grinds out.

I can see the price difference between these soon becoming less of an issue and the discussions and debates can commence


----------



## cold war kid

kennyboy993 said:


> The Sette isn't single dose though is it - I don't know what weight of beans it needs on top to ensure decent grinding though must be something?
> 
> For me, that doesn't make it a competitor.
> 
> For the price point there isn't anything.
> 
> I know some owners of really expensive Webbers, monoliths etc are saying they shouldn't be compared though IMO they are the only competitor to Niche in terms of user experience and target use cases ie home user 18g of coffee out of the vacuum sealed container, in to the machine and boom - 18g of grinds out.
> 
> I can see the price difference between these soon becoming less of an issue and the discussions and debates can commence


It's a very none scientific reply, but the only time I've had a shot from a Sette it was single dosed and other than the popcorning it was very impressive. Unfortunately there were lots of things that weren't impressive, especially the noise. It's a toss up between that and my old MC2 for the award of loudest grinder ever. I mentioned the Sette as direct competition because witht the scale version, it has the same sort of end result as a single doser and is retention free.

If the Niche is as good in the cup and does everything else right I'll be well happy.

If it turns out to be as good as my Pharos which I can no longer use due to recurring tennis elbow, I'll be over the moon.


----------



## richwade80

MildredM said:


> It sounds like the name they came up with was spot on then! There was a gap and it has been filled perfectly, by the sound of things.


I do wonder if they originally intended to fill that gap, or just accidentally found it while developing the idea. For most people here, it seems like the obvious solution.


----------



## dan1502

Well I thought I never would as it's great for single dosing and I love owning it but if it turns out to be as good as my first impressions are telling me after using it a while longer I shall seriously consider selling my EK43 and buying another for home (current one is for work). It's very hard to conclude which is better when it comes to comparing with high-end grinders as taste is subjective and comparison methods open to question. There's also the issue that if you own a very expensive grinder you might affect it's value by stating something a quarter of the price is as good, similar or perhaps better is some ways (ease of use etc) or you might just not wish to admit it, even to yourself.


----------



## DavecUK

dan1502 said:


> There's also the issue that if you own a very expensive grinder you might affect it's value by stating something a quarter of the price is as good, similar or perhaps better is some ways (ease of use etc) or you might just not wish to admit it, even to yourself.


A very good point, its the first thing my friend said when he taste tested it compared to his E37S...followed up by "perhaps after I have sold it"! As I keep saying there is only a hair between it and my E92, but the ease of use means and consistency means I'd rather use the Niche.

Someone also said the Sette has larger burrs...don't think conicals and flats compare that way at all.


----------



## richwade80

richwade80 said:


> Anyone else noticed a recent spike in backings on Indiegogo? Yes, I'm still checking even though I got mine...
> 
> It does seem like every user review is overwhelmingly positive though.
> 
> Hopefully it keeps going. It is a 'Niche' market, but they surely don't have much competition. Strike while the iron's hot and all!


It's now 10 more orders in the last 24hrs...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

The Sette has 40mm conical burrs, so smaller than the Niche's 63mm ones.


----------



## cold war kid

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The Sette has 40mm conical burrs, so smaller than the Niche's 63mm ones.


Yep.

Despite it's small burrs it makes a really good shot. The company that make the burrs for the Sette also make their own commercial grinder that has even smaller burrs, they believe massive burrs aren't always an advantage and it's true that just because two grinders have the same sized burr that it won't necessarily follow that they'll each be as good in the cup.

I'm excited to receive the Niche because everybody seems impressed with the grind and I know it will blow the Sette and others away in other departments.

I feel like a little boy on Christmas eve. That's quite sad for a 44 year old man I know but it's true all the same.


----------



## Tsangpa

It definitely has a market, but the price point is a difficult one for the mass market.

Sage, Wilfa, Rancilio and Mignons will generally corner the sub £500 segment. Even then I'd bet that Sage outsells everyone in that segment because people like cheap. Commercial wise some coffee bars may try one or two but I can't see that being a serious segment.

As soon as you're into £250+ for a grinder it's a much smaller market. People will spend more on a machine simply because it's counter intuitive to spend more on a grinder than the coffee machine itself.

It obviously disrupts the second hand market on forums like this one, but that's a small segment.

It'll be interesting to see how they develop it.



DavecUK said:


> It's an interesting view. I personally do think it will be a disruptor. It has a huge potential because manufacturers will take a while to wake up to what's happened. Remember most of the big grinder manufacturers are not interested in listening to users, just the retailers. It seems like the same thing, but trust me it isn't.
> 
> Areas where I see it performing well.
> 
> 1. If I had a commercial coffee shop, would I use it.....me personally yes, if I had guest beans and then one commercial for the bread and butter. If I was real speciality, yes I might buy 3 or 4 of them and run like that if the volumes were relatively low. If one breaks, I simply buy another. There are ways to make a commercial proposition, as well as perhaps making say a a Niche 1 just for the commercial market. 73mm burrs, tiny bit bigger, different motor etc.. same principle.
> 
> 2. Roastery for a sample grinder, cupping grinder....yes absolutely, you are going to be grinding all sorts of different coffees. I think every small artisan roaster should have one. They just don't realise it yet
> 
> 3. If I am a travelling trainer, or coffee bean sales person...absolutely. What better than knowing you have a lightweight grinder with heavy weight guaranteed good performance with you to train on or showcase the beans you are selling.
> 
> 4. You have a small coffee cart or operation out the back of a mini etc..absolutely, run this puppy off a voltage converter and your golden. One HUGE advantage, doesn't have the big start-up current of a grinder with an AC induction motor..BIG performance small size, portability and power requirements (approx 160W max). Also not limited to just one bean.
> 
> 5. Home use - we all know why.
> 
> The key point is we have something unique that punches well above it's weight performance wise, retains nothing, is simple and easy to use. There are certain markets where this will really fly, especially where people are limited in space (flats), and mobile. £500 seems a lot, but when you compare it to the performance of something that's 200 or even £300, you absolutely know it's worth spending the extra money


----------



## Inglorious Alf

Obligatory owner pic attached. Feels a shame to have to tuck it away in the corner of the kitchen, but it looks great and is a huge improvement on my Vario. Will post about my experiences in the other thread.


----------



## PineappleMonkey

DavecUK said:


> There are ways to make a commercial proposition, as well as perhaps making say a a Niche 1 just for the commercial market. 73mm burrs, tiny bit bigger, different motor etc.. same principle.


Go on, go on... I for one am ready for my Niche 1 73mm burr overlord









I've gone through a bag of Intelligentsia black cat so far and never owning personally a conical before I have had the pleasure of using a few Mazzers. I went from a vario to my now for sale K30 and finally to the Niche. The vario was decent to single dose but took a lot of wizardry to do so. K30 was a monster in my kitchen and although it does produce a different mouth feel and taste, which I am assuming will highlight different aspects...having countertop space back is great.

K30 even though I wish I could still keep it for bigger gatherings we have often, the wife doesn't approve.

Enough of my past, present though! Let's back to the future and the 73mm Niche!








*wink *wink


----------



## 4085

PineappleMonkey said:


> Go on, go on... I for one am ready for my Niche 1 73mm burr overlord
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I've gone through a bag of Intelligentsia black cat so far and never owning personally a conical before I have had the pleasure of using a few Mazzers. I went from a vario to my now for sale K30 and finally to the Niche. The vario was decent to single dose but took a lot of wizardry to do so. K30 was a monster in my kitchen and although it does produce a different mouth feel and taste, which I am assuming will highlight different aspects...having countertop space back is great.
> 
> K30 even though I wish I could still keep it for bigger gatherings we have often, the wife doesn't approve.
> 
> Enough of my past, present though! Let's back to the future and the 73mm Niche!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> *wink *wink


have you got sand in your eye from all those winks.....63 mm burrs!


----------



## cold war kid

He was referring to a comment about the possibility of a future commercial grinder with 73mm burrs. It was just a joke though...or was it (the winking smiley would be here if I could find it)


----------



## DavecUK

It was a joke I sort of wish I had never said


----------



## CoffeeChris

Will the wood occasionaly need treating/nourishing? If so what would you guys recommend?


----------



## jonnycooper29

CoffeeChris said:


> Will the wood occasionaly need treating/nourishing? If so what would you guys recommend?


Danish oil will do the trick. But whenever I've done any green woodwork, I used to mix 1/3 white spirit, 1/3 danish oil and 1/3 polyurethane varnish. Give it a few coats of that and it'll be spill proof for most liquids. It seeps right in and protects it well!

I can't imagine it really needs it though? The only thing I can see being spilt on it are coffee grinds, and that'll be a matter of blowing/wiping/shaking off?


----------



## CoffeeChris

jonnycooper29 said:


> Danish oil will do the trick. But whenever I've done any green woodwork, I used to mix 1/3 white spirit, 1/3 danish oil and 1/3 polyurethane varnish. Give it a few coats of that and it'll be spill proof for most liquids. It seeps right in and protects it well!
> 
> I can't imagine it really needs it though? The only thing I can see being spilt on it are coffee grinds, and that'll be a matter of blowing/wiping/shaking off?


Cheers. No it's all good. Just thinking ahead and while people are talking about the grinder thought I would ask.


----------



## steveholt

Backed at first tier first day first hour, stayed with white.

"Finally" being delivered today.

Ill be up late tonight.


----------



## martinierius

Anyone in Belgium got his/her Niche?


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

Anyone had a status update to locked today?

After teasing us 1136-1202 contributors here I am refreshing my Indiegogo and nothings changing!

I'm even down to a hand grinder only now ready for Zero day!



FuzzyFeltDeath said:


> Update 43
> 
> If your contribution ID is between 1136 and 1202, can we ask you to give it one final check as we will be locking them in on Monday. We have been shipping out grinders everyday this week and we plan to do the same thing next week. We really appreciate all of your patience and your grinders will be with you very soon.


----------



## PPapa

Is anyone brave enough of thinking about a custom made lid top? Metal hinges, wooden top with a 2.5-3" round glass window in the middle? There's nothing wrong with the current lid, but it's the only thing that doesn't feel as solid as the rest of the grinder.

Tagging @joey24dirt...


----------



## jonnycooper29

FuzzyFeltDeath said:


> Anyone had a status update to locked today?
> 
> After teasing us 1136-1202 contributors here I am refreshing my Indiegogo and nothings changing!
> 
> I'm even down to a hand grinder only now ready for Zero day!


I'm the same!


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

jonnycooper29 said:


> I'm the same!


After them updating us without asking, installing hope in us all, I'm planning a march towards HQ. Wondering if making effigy's would be going too far


----------



## steveholt

steveholt said:


> Backed at first tier first day first hour, stayed with white.
> 
> "Finally" being delivered today.
> 
> Ill be up late tonight.


Ok,

My e37 suddenly seems a little big, a little loud and a little clumpy.


----------



## coffeechap

Pads of commercial grinders at silly money coming up!


----------



## steveholt

coffeechap said:


> Pads of commercial grinders at silly money coming up!


Prob not my 'spare' grinder but yeah the market glut of commercial grinders that was forecast looks like it will come to pass.


----------



## DavecUK

PPapa said:


> Is anyone brave enough of thinking about a custom made lid top? Metal hinges, wooden top with a 2.5-3" round glass window in the middle? There's nothing wrong with the current lid, but it's the only thing that doesn't feel as solid as the rest of the grinder.
> 
> Tagging @joey24dirt...


The lid is made of Lexan, even so a customised lid would be interesting to see


----------



## Jony

MM very interesting Indeigogo site are selling like hot cakes! nearly Twenty


----------



## Kyle T

kennyboy993 said:


> The Sette isn't single dose though is it - I don't know what weight of beans it needs on top to ensure decent grinding though must be something?
> 
> For me, that doesn't make it a competitor.
> 
> For the price point there isn't anything.
> 
> I know some owners of really expensive Webbers, monoliths etc are saying they shouldn't be compared though IMO they are the only competitor to Niche in terms of user experience and target use cases ie home user 18g of coffee out of the vacuum sealed container, in to the machine and boom - 18g of grinds out.
> 
> I can see the price difference between these soon becoming less of an issue and the discussions and debates can commence


I single dosed my Sette for the whole 18 months I had it. I would need to put 19g in though to get 18g out.


----------



## Kyle T

cold war kid said:


> It's a very none scientific reply, but the only time I've had a shot from a Sette it was single dosed and other than the popcorning it was very impressive. Unfortunately there were lots of things that weren't impressive, especially the noise. It's a toss up between that and my old MC2 for the award of loudest grinder ever. I mentioned the Sette as direct competition because witht the scale version, it has the same sort of end result as a single doser and is retention free.
> 
> If the Niche is as good in the cup and does everything else right I'll be well happy.
> 
> If it turns out to be as good as my Pharos which I can no longer use due to recurring tennis elbow, I'll be over the moon.


It's not retention free even though that's how it was pushed. My Sette always held on to at least 1g of coffee.


----------



## rdpx

The latest update about shipping made me think they had shipped ours. But no, just telling us all that they had shipped a load already.

I'm fairly relaxed about it, but the false hope of seeing "WE ARE NOW SHIPPING" this morning meant that, as the email just showed grinders arriving in Australia, it was kind of irritating.


----------



## rytopa

rdpx said:


> The latest update about shipping made me think they had shipped ours. But no, just telling us all that they had shipped a load already.
> 
> I'm fairly relaxed about it, but the false hope of seeing "WE ARE NOW SHIPPING" this morning meant that, as the email just showed grinders arriving in Australia, it was kind of irritating.


Do drop them a email for the tracking number, they have been shipping out the grinders fairly aggressively, i have a feeling yours is already en-route to you.


----------



## steveholt

Folks...

Whats up with the springs in the bottom compartment?


----------



## onthelathe

I'm in this band and still waiting for the status to change.


----------



## jonnycooper29

onthelathe said:


> I'm in this band and still waiting for the status to change.


It's slightly irritating that they put out an update that said ours would go to locked status yesterday and yet nothing has happened.

I am on the edge of my seat waiting for the DPD notification!


----------



## ashcroc

steveholt said:


> Folks...
> 
> Whats up with the springs in the bottom compartment?


Think they're a spare set?


----------



## Zagato

I think he means a spare set for what?


----------



## onthelathe

jonnycooper29 said:


> It's slightly irritating that they put out an update that said ours would go to locked status yesterday and yet nothing has happened.
> 
> I am on the edge of my seat waiting for the DPD notification!


I had an exchange of emails with them last week regarding delivering to a different address, which incurred an extra charge, but all has gone quiet this week!


----------



## Teaboy

jonnycooper29 said:


> It's slightly irritating that they put out an update that said ours would go to locked status yesterday and yet nothing has happened.
> 
> I am on the edge of my seat waiting for the DPD notification!


Yes my thoughts too not locked yet and meant to be!


----------



## rdpx

Teaboy said:


> Yes my thoughts too not locked yet and meant to be!


If it makes you feel any better, we ordered ours in March and have had no communication at all outside the stock indiegogo update emails.


----------



## rdpx

rdpx said:


> If it makes you feel any better, we ordered ours in March and have had no communication at all outside the stock indiegogo update emails.


UPDATE

just got a text to say it's coming tomorrow!


----------



## J_Fo

DPD update, grinder will (should..) be delivered tomorrow.

This is like Christmas eve 1978


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

SPAM
















Has your indiegogo status changed, as I've nowt on DPD or that.

Enjoy thought!



rdpx said:


> UPDATE
> 
> just got a text to say it's coming tomorrow!


----------



## jonnycooper29

rdpx said:


> UPDATE
> 
> just got a text to say it's coming tomorrow!


Woohoo! Exciting times, looking forward to hearing about another users experience!


----------



## rdpx

FuzzyFeltDeath said:


> SPAM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Has your indiegogo status changed, as I've nowt on DPD or that.
> 
> Enjoy thought!


Yep now showing as fulfilled.

Now who wants to buy a Mazzer Mini?

There's a really nice café where my mum lives in Pembrokeshire and they don't have a grinder for decaf, but the coffee is very good. They've got a La Marzocco machine and a big Caedo grinder (I think). I've mentioned my Mazzer to the owner but he wasn't interested. Maybe I'll see if he wants to borrow it for a month or two?


----------



## marchaos

rdpx said:


> Yep now showing as fulfilled.
> 
> Now who wants to buy a Mazzer Mini?
> 
> There's a really nice café where my mum lives in Pembrokeshire and they don't have a grinder for decaf, but the coffee is very good. They've got a La Marzocco machine and a big Caedo grinder (I think). I've mentioned my Mazzer to the owner but he wasn't interested. Maybe I'll see if he wants to borrow it for a month or two?


He's probably waiting for a niche as well!


----------



## Jony

Jon_Foster said:


> DPD update, grinder will (should..) be delivered tomorrow.
> 
> This is like Christmas eve 1978


Nice I got a Fishing Rod haha


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

:good:









Off to refresh Indiegogo constantly until bed time.



rdpx said:


> Yep now showing as fulfilled.
> 
> Now who wants to buy a Mazzer Mini?
> 
> There's a really nice café where my mum lives in Pembrokeshire and they don't have a grinder for decaf, but the coffee is very good. They've got a La Marzocco machine and a big Caedo grinder (I think). I've mentioned my Mazzer to the owner but he wasn't interested. Maybe I'll see if he wants to borrow it for a month or two?


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

LOCKED!

DPDPDPDPDPDPDPDPDPPDPDPDPDPDPDP please :0


----------



## jonnycooper29

FuzzyFeltDeath said:


> LOCKED!
> 
> DPDPDPDPDPDPDPDPDPPDPDPDPDPDPDP please :0


Sameee


----------



## Niche Coffee

steveholt said:


> Folks...
> 
> Whats up with the springs in the bottom compartment?


Hi Steve,

They are a spare set of springs should you lose the ones underneath the outer burr.


----------



## Choronzon

Excitement, was thinking I had slipped through the cracks but got email at 4:10 saying it will arrive tomorrow. Also contribution set to fulfilled. Looking forwards to this, I have only used the rocky grinder so should be massive upgrade. Look forwards to getting the most out of my gaggia classic. Was considering sending it to a pick up location. In my experience they tend to target those first.

To balance it out within 10 minutes I got an email informing me I didn't get into the London marathon. Although that's not unexpected


----------



## DavecUK

Choronzon said:


> To balance it out within 10 minutes I got an email informing me I didn't get into the London marathon. Although that's not unexpected


It's OK I didn't get into the LM either, it's no biggie


----------



## onthelathe

I'm in the middle of the current batch and also showing CONTRIBUTION LOCKED!!


----------



## jonnycooper29

onthelathe said:


> I'm in the middle of the current batch and also showing CONTRIBUTION LOCKED!!


What do you mean by middle of current batch? As in middle of the range mentioned in the latest update?


----------



## cold war kid

DavecUK said:


> It's OK I didn't get into the LM either, it's no biggie


There was a time when if you got declined twice you were guaranteed a place the third time round. Also, if you got injured you could defer your entry until the next year. I guess they are just too in demand now.

If you're any good you can go for a good for age (GFA) place or join a club and try and get an allocation through them.


----------



## onthelathe

jonnycooper29 said:


> What do you mean by middle of current batch? As in middle of the range mentioned in the latest update?


Yes, exactly that.


----------



## DavecUK

cold war kid said:


> There was a time when if you got declined twice you were guaranteed a place the third time round. Also, if you got injured you could defer your entry until the next year. I guess they are just too in demand now.
> 
> If you're any good you can go for a good for age (GFA) place or join a club and try and get an allocation through them.


I think it's because I used to be a fast bastard, never ran and never applied...nowadays the only thing I can run is a bath....."where are me teeth"

Of course in the same way I wasn't picked to represent the UK in the Olympics in 2012 (Usain Bolt got my place) and I bet I won't be in the 2020 Olympics either...."found em"


----------



## burmanm

rdpx said:


> If it makes you feel any better, we ordered ours in March and have had no communication at all outside the stock indiegogo update emails.
> 
> UPDATE
> 
> just got a text to say it's coming tomorrow!


Not sure this makes me feel any better given I ordered mine in December and still only in locked mode. Meh. I really hope there's a sane reason why this isn't FIFO.


----------



## burmanm

burmanm said:


> Not sure this makes me feel any better given I ordered mine in December and still only in locked mode. Meh. I really hope there's a sane reason why this isn't FIFO.


I guess a little bit of whining helps when it now turned to fullfilled after writing that


----------



## DavecUK

burmanm said:


> I guess a little bit of whining helps when it now turned to fullfilled after writing that


----------



## martinierius

martinierius said:


> Anyone in Belgium got his/her Niche?


I got mine today! For reference: backed in september.


----------



## Teaboy

martinierius said:


> I got mine today! For reference: backed in september.


I take it that was September 2017, did It take a long time from locked to fulfillment? I


----------



## J_Fo

It's arrived!! Unfortunately it's a 2 show day for me so I won't get home til midnight which is probably a bit late for coffee... Can't wait til tomorrow morning!


----------



## martinierius

Teaboy said:


> I take it that was September 2017, did It take a long time from locked to fulfillment? I


Day after fullfilment I got text from DPD


----------



## jonnycooper29

martinierius said:


> Day after fullfilment I got text from DPD


How long after locked did it become fulfilled though?


----------



## cotag

jonnycooper29 said:


> How long after locked did it become fulfilled though?


Mine was locked the first day (27 Sept maybe) and still in the 'Contribution Locked' status. They are still sending out the first batch as far as I know.


----------



## Jameszee

Niche delivered today, already looking settled next to the db! Also got my fantastic new tamp from @joey24dirt this week too. Happy days and cheers Joey!


----------



## joey24dirt

Jameszee said:


> Niche delivered today, already looking settled next to the db! Also got my fantastic new tamp from @joey24dirt this week too. Happy days and cheers Joey!


Looks awesome mate glad you like it


----------



## Jony

Tamper looks cool, I am sure everyone's tampers are better than mine, think I am going to have to get another haha


----------



## Teaboy

martinierius said:


> Day after fullfilment I got text from DPD


Thank you and how long was contribution locked till it changed to fulfilled - I don't understand why they are locking them and not delivering shortly after!


----------



## tohenk2

Teaboy said:


> Thank you and how long was contribution locked till it changed to fulfilled - I don't understand why they are locking them and not delivering shortly after!


I think delivery follows shortly after the Indiegogo contribution status changes to fulfilled, not after the contribution is locked.

I do not know all the Indiegogo rules, but when a campaigner (in this case Niche) starts building things it seems logical to me that you can not withdraw your money, and thus your contribution becomes locked.

(Remember you are not buying a grinder, you are backing a campaign and getting a grinder is a perk ... there is a difference.)


----------



## Oblivion

Received mine yesterday.


----------



## enrm6

Another happy customer here too


----------



## leithmike

Got mine delivered yesterday. It looks like it was manufactured specifically to match our tiles and worktops! Wife and I both noticed a positive difference in the taste of the coffee this morning. Thanks to DaveC and everyone on the forum for the recommendation.

Just need to upgrade the Classic now. . .


----------



## jonnycooper29

Fulfilled


----------



## cold war kid

@coffeechap. I'm looking forward to your comparison between the Niche and other grinders.

I've dipped my toe in and out of this forum for years now and for much of that time you've been a regular poster, very knowledgeable, helpful and patient with newbies and what I'd consider a good egg. I am a little confused however that you feel the Mythos is a good direct comparison. Is the Mythos the same grinder as the Mythos One? That's a £2000+ grinder and although I understand that you picked it up for less than £300, surely it would be akin to finding a genuine Rolex at a car boot sale for £50 and then doing a comparison with a Casio you picked up new from Argos. The £50 Rolex is out there ( I know somebody who picked up a Submariner for £50 ) but it isn't a guide to true second hand value. Isn't the same true with your Mythos, or is that really how much a mint version that needs no work depreciates over time?

Personally I see it's direct competitor to be the Baratza Sette as I mentioned earlier in this thread. They're both aimed at the domestic market, both claim zero retention and both are in the same ballpark new pricewise. I think both come with 12 months guarantee as well, although the Niche seem to be a little bizarre in that it appears you need to diagnose the fault and then they'll send you the part to fit yourself, whereas most manufacturers expressly forbid you to tinker with their products and will invalidate your warranty if you do.

Edit

I've only gone and posted this in the wrong Niche thread, haven't I!

Never mind, after the week I'm having, I'm so tired I'm surprised it's in the right forum.


----------



## Jony

Which one doggin R us ^^ haha


----------



## FuzzyFeltDeath

jonnycooper29 said:


> Fulfilled


I'll join in this celebration. Sadly, I'll have all of three of four hours to use it before I'm away for a few days. Good things come to those who wait and all.


----------



## aidodo

Mine finally arrived yesterday. Delighted with it. The difference between the Niche and my old Delonghi "grinder" is unbelievable. Big thanks to Dave and to Niche.


----------



## Mr Kirk

Can anyone confirm when payment it taken?

Is it when it's ordered or despatched?


----------



## Jony

When ordered.


----------



## onthelathe

I got my Niche today and it looks great in black. It has the look of a mature product and feels solid and well engineered. I'm extremely pleased with it so far. The cosmetic finish is very good (I'm giving a bit of slack to the grind cup) and I'm currently putting some Liberon Hard Wax Oil on the wooden parts to keep it that way. My thanks also to Niche and Dave, and this forum for bringing it to my attention, long before I joined. It won't come as a surprise to anyone to hear that the grind is night and day better  than my Hario and as I have no other experience of coffee grinders I'll leave it at that. I've only made two coffees with it so far (I'd already had two before it arrived) and I've not got it dialed in correctly. I checked the calibration and found it to be 3 clicks shy of the mark so I'll refine it tomorrow, but the coffee is already tasting wonderful!


----------



## tohenk2

Got mine today as well.

I have calibrated it (fingertight with indexfinger and thumb), run some beans through (measured on the acaia since the cup is to heavy for my other 2 scales)

10.0 in 9,9 out

10.0 in 9,9 out

10.0 in 10.0 out

10.0 in 10.0 out

Made an espresso with the last grind (setting was 17) in my new Descent 10gr basket. The start of the pour was picture perfect in the naked portafilter, but then it went on way to fast, done at around 20 seconds. But I had to go out, so I will try again tomorrow with a tighter setting.

I also have to give it some space of it own on the countertop.

Both my wife and daughter really love the looks of it.


----------



## Jony

Some nice numbers you have Sir


----------



## hifimacianer

I just ordered/backed a black Niche. So exited.

Just couldn't resist after all these great impressions here.


----------



## paul whu

I want one. Can someone post me a link to buying one .. there are a load of posts to trawl through and I cannot work it out. They look great and I want one.


----------



## Jony

Google


----------



## lake_m

Here you go...

https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/niche-zero-the-best-conical-burr-coffee-grinder/x/17289869#/


----------



## joey24dirt

Jony said:


> Tamper looks cool, I am sure everyone's tampers are better than mine, think I am going to have to get another haha


Just seen this  you asked for red and black hahaha


----------



## Jony

joey24dirt said:


> Just seen this  you asked for red and black hahaha


I sure did, Nothing wrong with mine it's what I wanted, but some other ones look great aswell


----------



## richwade80

It's nice to see that the positive feedback seems to be creating a spike in sales over the last few weeks.

Not 100% accurate, but not far off.... #toomuchtimetokill


----------



## L&R

Love it, so many commercial grinders on sale


----------



## Yannick

Hi,

I am a espresso newbie, new to the forum.

After a lot of reading, you guys convinced me that this is the grinder I need. A little more expensive that I wanted to spend for a grinder but it seems to do all I wanted with little inconvenient. Backed it 1 week ago. Should be delivered in November









Many thanks for all the advices around here. Really helping


----------



## Oblivion

Yannick said:


> Hi,
> 
> I am a espresso newbie, new to the forum.
> 
> After a lot of reading, you guys convinced me that this is the grinder I need. A little more expensive that I wanted to spend for a grinder but it seems to do all I wanted with little inconvenient. Backed it 1 week ago. Should be delivered in November
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Many thanks for all the advices around here. Really helping


Good decision. Buy quality, buy once. My prediction is the Niche will become a design classic.


----------



## Rob1

Anyone interested in some knock off blind tumblers from Oz? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com.au%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F323321076780


----------



## asaf

DavecUK said:


> Just remember the duty cycle if you're thinking of running a whole bag through in short order. I think running a bag through is not necessary (just 2 or 3 doubles) but if you have to, follow the duty cycle. I never had any problems when I was abuse testing, but I am sure none of you want to abuse test your own grinder.


Could you please provide a reference to the duty cycle? Thank you.


----------



## DavecUK

I guess it's in the downloadable manual?


----------



## asaf

DavecUK said:


> I guess it's in the downloadable manual?


Sorry, but can't seem to find it. It doesn't seem to appear in the printed manual either. For now I'll assume it is 10% like the Sette.


----------



## DavecUK

asaf said:


> Sorry, but can't seem to find it. It doesn't seem to appear in the printed manual either. For now I'll assume it is 10% like the Sette.


I can't really comment, if Niche have not published it, it's not my place to...even if I have really stressed the test grinders, probably way beyond what an average home user would ever do...That said people are always surprising me with their inventiveness.


----------



## ajohn

asaf said:


> Sorry, but can't seem to find it. It doesn't seem to appear in the printed manual either. For now I'll assume it is 10% like the Sette.


The Sette grinder has the worst duty cycle I have ever come across so bad I'd suggest that people do not buy them. 10% doesn't make sense anyway. A time is needed. A grinder may have a run time that results in the motor getting too hot. This will be shorter as the grind is set finer and finer. At the coarser end the Sette may need resting for an entire minute after grinding 150g in from 5 to 30 sec.

I'd be very surprised if the Niche wasn't better than that. If you want to condition the burrs on a Niche a lot of it should be done out of the espresso range which reduces the load. What I do personally is visit that range periodically to see how things are going and go finer as it improves. That way not that much is ground at espresso levels but things improve noticeably on the ones I have done over say 3kg or so of actual use. The difference from that at 5kg of use is relatively small. That's flat burrs though. Big conical pass but I believe a comment was made in this area at one point.








I also feel the heat of the casing periodically.

One question on Niche - does the motor have a built in thermal cut out? This is becoming increasingly common in other areas so it may have one.

John

-


----------



## EnochArdon

Hi,

Thanks to all of you for this rich thread. I am about to order a Niche, it would replace a manual Hario Skerton but I am still looking for some confirmation on my approach.

I am brewing with an AP at home, no enough room to have an espresso machine. Eventually, I would buy a V60 in the future. I want to be sure to make a relevant choice considering this type of brewing.

Are there better options than the Niche?

Knowing that I need a silent and tiny grinder for single dosing, low retention, consistency of grind size.

I know the other Versalab, HG-1, Kafatek Flats or Titus but even if the price is not really a criteria, it could not wait 6 months or a year to receive a grinder. EK43 is often cited for other brewing methods than espresso but even the "S version" is huge compared to the Niche. I also thought about a Comandante or a good hand grinder but I want an electric one to do the job for me...

Some input to confirm that I will be another very happy user if I buy a Niche?


----------



## asaf

Thank you for your helpful comment, appreciated.



ajohn said:


> The Sette grinder has the worst duty cycle I have ever come across so bad I'd suggest that people do not buy them. 10% doesn't make sense anyway.
> 
> -


Yes, that is why I assumed this just for safety as I try to get accurate reliable data on the duty cycle.



ajohn said:


> One question on Niche - does the motor have a built in thermal cut out? This is becoming increasingly common in other areas so it may have one
> 
> -


According to the printed manual, it does (see page 3, section 6).


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> One question on Niche - does the motor have a built in thermal cut out? This is becoming increasingly common in other areas so it may have one. John
> 
> -


you thinking of buying one then?


----------



## J_Fo

EnochArdon said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks to all of you for this rich thread. I am about to order a Niche, it would replace a manual Hario Skerton but I am still looking for some confirmation on my approach.
> 
> I am brewing with an AP at home, no enough room to have an espresso machine. Eventually, I would buy a V60 in the future. I want to be sure to make a relevant choice considering this type of brewing.
> 
> Are there better options than the Niche?
> 
> Knowing that I need a silent and tiny grinder for single dosing, low retention, consistency of grind size.
> 
> I know the other Versalab, HG-1, Kafatek Flats or Titus but even if the price is not really a criteria, it could not wait 6 months or a year to receive a grinder. EK43 is often cited for other brewing methods than espresso but even the "S version" is huge compared to the Niche. I also thought about a Comandante or a good hand grinder but I want an electric one to do the job for me...
> 
> Some input to confirm that I will be another very happy user if I buy a Niche?


There are people with plenty more experience than me that I'm sure can help, @MWJB will give you excellent advice re immersion & drip brewing, but for what it's worth I think a wilfa svart or a manual grinder like a feldgrind would be good enough for your needs. If you're going to invest in an espresso machine in the future it would be worth it but for use exclusively for AP or V60 I'd say it's probably overkill...


----------



## MWJB

EnochArdon said:


> Hi,
> 
> Thanks to all of you for this rich thread. I am about to order a Niche, it would replace a manual Hario Skerton but I am still looking for some confirmation on my approach.
> 
> I am brewing with an AP at home, no enough room to have an espresso machine. Eventually, I would buy a V60 in the future. I want to be sure to make a relevant choice considering this type of brewing.
> 
> Are there better options than the Niche?
> 
> Knowing that I need a silent and tiny grinder for single dosing, low retention, consistency of grind size.
> 
> I know the other Versalab, HG-1, Kafatek Flats or Titus but even if the price is not really a criteria, it could not wait 6 months or a year to receive a grinder. EK43 is often cited for other brewing methods than espresso but even the "S version" is huge compared to the Niche. I also thought about a Comandante or a good hand grinder but I want an electric one to do the job for me...
> 
> Some input to confirm that I will be another very happy user if I buy a Niche?


OK, so to go by the most important points...

Must be electric.

Small footprint

Not too long a wait for delivery.

Silent.

Silent isn't going to happen. The Niche has low rumble, inoffensive, relatively quiet but "silent" isn't a reasonable parameter.

This might be useful...






Consistency of grind size isn't really an issue considering Niche, Wilfa & Baratza Encore. All will work, which do you think is prettiest?


----------



## coffeechap

What do you mean by consistency of grind in this context @MWJB as I have found that the Niche has quite a spread of particle sizes?


----------



## MWJB

coffeechap said:


> What do you mean by consistency of grind in this context @MWJB as I have found that the Niche has quite a spread of particle sizes?


I mean that the spread of particle sizes for Niche, Wilfa & Baratza Encore (& similar) will be adequate & fine/coarse enough for manual brewed methods.

All grinders make a spread of particle sizes, if there are more large particles in the Niche grind, then the grind is coarser than whatever else you are comparing to. It's not abnormal for different grinders to extract similarly (in total) at different grind sizes.


----------



## EnochArdon

Jon_Foster said:


> There are people with plenty more experience than me that I'm sure can help, @MWJB will give you excellent advice re immersion & drip brewing, but for what it's worth I think a wilfa svart or a manual grinder like a feldgrind would be good enough for your needs. If you're going to invest in an espresso machine in the future it would be worth it but for use exclusively for AP or V60 I'd say it's probably overkill...


I may move to another place under 2 years, meaning a real coffee spot in the kitchen, meaning a LM Linea Mini











MWJB said:


> OK, so to go by the most important points...
> 
> Must be electric.
> 
> Small footprint
> 
> Not too long a wait for delivery.
> 
> Silent.
> 
> Silent isn't going to happen. The Niche has low rumble, inoffensive, relatively quiet but "silent" isn't a reasonable parameter.
> 
> This might be useful...


By silent, I meant "low noise". I have read 72dB for the Niche vs 82-85dB in your video, so another good point for the Niche. I also prefer its design and quality built for sure, not speaking about the grind cup and dimensions versus the two containers for the Baratza or the Wilfa. Do not want a hopper, or a very small one then.

So far this is why I think it is gathering "everything"


----------



## J_Fo

EnochArdon said:


> I may move to another place under 2 years, meaning a real coffee spot in the kitchen, meaning a LM Linea Mini


In that case I'd say go Niche!!


----------



## mrdan

Hey,

i had feldgrind + AP, V60, turkish, mocapot,... feldgrind is pretty much sufficient for any drip without a problem. I make drip every morning and since you have to manually grind with feldgrind 30g each time + you need to clean the burrs and the chamber with a brush because feldgrind has a looot of retention. With niche you just put 30g, you get 30g out, few claps of the grind cup and off you go. + in the future i would like to buy a good quality espresso mashine. And i think this is the only grinder on the market capable of switching between espresso and drip grind without need to clean everything, which is a lot of hassle. If you got money for that dont hesitate, if youre on a budget, just want to make drip and dont mind physical labour i think feldgrind is a good choice.


----------



## Viernes

Still waiting for my Niche









Who is still waiting for a black Niche?


----------



## Phil104

I have picked mine up (a black one) but I was an early adopter. Have you emailed Niche Towers to ask?


----------



## Viernes

"Problem" is I changed my mind 3 weeks ago and I asked to change my white Niche for a black one.

So now I have to wait. But you guys seems very happy with your grinders... and I cannot comment nothing... :_(


----------



## Phil104

Viernes said:


> "Problem" is I changed my mind 3 weeks ago and I asked to change my white Niche for a black one.
> 
> So now I have to wait. But you guys seems very happy with your grinders... and I cannot comment nothing... :_(


I would say absolutely worth the wait and the black one looks very good.


----------



## Yannick

I backed it only 10 days ago, so still waiting


----------



## Beanbiken

Viernes said:


> Still waiting for my Niche
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Who is still waiting for a black Niche?


I,m #1257 and mine is still sitting at "contribution placed" but scheduled delivery is November so no big deal yet

BB


----------



## _HH_

1233, still at contribution placed. Roll on November!


----------



## Topshot

1237 at contribution placed, counting down the weeks, then it will be days!


----------



## SimonB

Beanbiken said:


> I,m #1257 and mine is still sitting at "contribution placed" but scheduled delivery is November so no big deal yet


1255 here, I'll give you a heads up.


----------



## Beanbiken

............. Yeah hopefully we will be in the same batch. Black or white??

BB


----------



## marknewham

1278 here but was still told November so hopefully there's a big batch coming!!


----------



## Yannick

At least November is only 30 days ...


----------



## Beanbiken

And shipping to OZ generally adds about 2 weeks

BB


----------



## SimonB

Beanbiken said:


> ............. Yeah hopefully we will be in the same batch. Black or white??


Black of course.


----------



## cold war kid

Beanbiken said:


> And shipping to OZ generally adds about 2 weeks
> 
> BB


One of the guys over on coffeesnobs got his in about 7 days and he's had it for 2 0r 3 days now. He was contributor 1191 and I'm 1194 and still waiting. I emailed them as I was worried it may have been despatched and gone amiss, but they emailed back saying they've run out of grind cups and are waiting for new ones to arrive.

There's an update just gone out to that effect as well. They've got quite aa backlog of the actual grinder apparently so I think it'll be business as usual once the cups come.


----------



## Beanbiken

Yep we must have patience grasshopper........

BB


----------



## marknewham

Yeah Niche posted an update yesterday

Update 45

Unfortunately we have now run out of grind cups and we are waiting on new ones to arrive from our new supplier.

We have built up a large stock of grinders so we will be able to fulfill your orders once we have received them.

Trust us when we say we are just as frustrated as you are because we are desperate to get you your grinders, but quality is our top priority.

We really appreciate your patience and we will keep you updated on the progress.


----------



## Viernes

Again the stupid cups!!

It's incredible that something as simple as a cup can stop a whole grinder production. They are producing the grinders way waster than the ****ing cups!

A solid 10 for Niche, 0 for the cups producer.


----------



## cold war kid

In a way, it's good that it's the cups. If it was the burrs for example the whole production process would be seriously disrupted. At least this way assembly can carry on as normal and the product despatched when the cups arrive. It's frustrating for everybody but we'll get them in the end. I've got tennis elbow at the moment and haven't been able to use the Pharos for weeks but hey ho.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

@coffeechap Have you had a chance to have a play with the Niche?


----------



## DavecUK

Viernes said:


> Again the stupid cups!!
> 
> It's incredible that something as simple as a cup can stop a whole grinder production. They are producing the grinders way waster than the ****ing cups!
> 
> A solid 10 for Niche, 0 for the cups producer.


I think this shows that a cup is not quite as simple as one might think! There are a few processes the cup has to go through and to cold form the steel (specifically "deep drawing") properly certain requirements need to be met, both in steel composition, type of tool, order of forming (the cups are multi stage), speed of forming and finishing. Once you get it right, then it's easy, but getting it right and having a high enough, well finished enough product is more difficult.

*
Note in the Video of a deep drawn steel component (not a Niche grind cup of course)* how hot things get and how the stuff is oiled, sometimes they use a plastic type film instead of oil...all this is to avoid tool damage and tool marks as the material moves.


----------



## coffeechap

urbanbumpkin said:


> @coffeechap Have you had a chance to have a play with the Niche?


Yes I have! Will have to put some careful thought In How to present my findings so far, both positive and negative


----------



## Paul K

Does anyone know if the backlog of cups have been delivered yet or are they still in transit?


----------



## marknewham

Been a while with no update - hopefully we will hear something soon


----------



## Yannick

Hope so too


----------



## Paul K

Yip couldn't agree more. A wee update would be nice or a rough estimate of when the cups will be delivered.

I have a November delivery, so in 24days left, and 4 Ton of S/O coffee beans to get through once it arrives.


----------



## Yannick

I am waiting it to arrive to buy my espresso machine.

Until then, finishing nes capsules and Bialetti coffee pot ...


----------



## robti

Can I ask, I assume that the company are still only taking orders through Kickstarter and if I order they can fold at any time and no refund, or have I got this wrong ?

Thanks


----------



## Jony

If they fold, I will give you my one,haha order away for December. Have you read this thread?


----------



## Dylan

robti said:


> Can I ask, I assume that the company are still only taking orders through Kickstarter and if I order they can fold at any time and no refund, or have I got this wrong ?
> 
> Thanks


You have this right. Kickstarter is not a purchase of a product even if it appears in every appreciable way to be so.

If you want absolute certainty protected by your bank and the law then wait. If you want it a bit quicker then you'll need to buy through KS - considering they have already delivered a high quality product to a lot of people it seems exceptionally unlikely that you wouldn't get one. However it is not guaranteed. They do come with a one year warranty however.


----------



## DavecUK

I didn't think Niche were on Kickstarter?


----------



## Paul K

DavecUK said:


> I didn't think Niche were on Kickstarter?


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> I didn't think Niche were on Kickstarter?


Prety sure they're indigogogo


----------



## DavecUK

ashcroc said:


> Prety sure they're indigogogo


Nope...not that either...to be honest that sounds like an Asian Lap Dancer.


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> Nope...not that either...to be honest that sounds like an Asian Lap Dancer.


Are you sure? The niche website sends me here when I select 'order now'.


----------



## DavecUK

ashcroc said:


> Are you sure? The niche website sends me here when I select 'order now'.


Yes I am sure it's ID*EI*GOGO...we got there in the end


----------



## ashcroc

DavecUK said:


> Yes I am sure it's ID*EI*GOGO...we got there in the end


I don't follow Samuel Johnson Jr.'s demented view that spelling has to be the same to be correct. My dyslexia happens to agree with me.


----------



## Jony

haha so funny sometimes take one for the teem!!


----------



## Downunder55

It would seem that the grind cups are delayed for a while longer ...... "We hope to have them by the end of the month, We will put up an update when we know for sure."

Not the end of the world, but nice to know a time-frame.


----------



## Paul K

Downunder55 said:


> It would seem that the grind cups are delayed for a while longer ...... "We hope to have them by the end of the month, We will put up an update when we know for sure."
> 
> Not the end of the world, but nice to know a time-frame.


Did you email them?


----------



## Downunder55

Paul K said:


> Did you email them?


Yes, ..... unfortunately I get a little impatient when the statement was a little open-ended, and just had to ask ......... now I know it will "likely be the end of the month" I can adjust my expectations...... .... and all at peace again with the world


----------



## marknewham

Downunder55 said:


> Yes, ..... unfortunately I get a little impatient when the statement was a little open-ended, and just had to ask ......... now I know it will "likely be the end of the month" I can adjust my expectations...... .... and all at peace again with the world


Likewise although that feels a long way off with bags of beans going out of date


----------



## cold war kid

They must have some grind cups in because I've had an email today saying mines coming tomorrow.


----------



## hifimacianer

cold war kid said:


> They must have some grind cups in because I've had an email today saying mines coming tomorrow.


Contribution ID? Just to have an impression how long it will take for mine


----------



## cold war kid

1191


----------



## cold war kid

Sorry, 1194


----------



## Robbo

I am no. 1208 and have been told today i wont be getting mine until end of month when they expect the next batch of grind cups to arrive


----------



## hifimacianer

Hmm, I am no. 1303 - so I'll have to wait even longer...


----------



## Paul K

As frustrating as it is, Niche have not defaulted on their part, if it's November they have 30days to fulfill the order.

Some of us may have thought we would get it in the first couple of days in November, but Niche didn't state that. So probably a wee bit of disappointment got in, that was then further compounded by the announcement that the cups had run out and they are awaiting delivery.

We need to keep a perspective and breathe a little rather than getting ourselves worked up about a delay. There is still 21 days of November left.

*now runs for the hills*


----------



## Planter

marknewham said:


> Likewise although that feels a long way off with bags of beans going out of date


Freeze the beans until it arrives, that should stop them going stale and just get them out when the Niche arrives


----------



## ashcroc

Planter said:


> Freeze the beans until it arrives, that should stop them going stale and just get them out when the Niche arrives


Don't forget to tape up the valve.


----------



## Beanbiken

I'm 1257......... or there about. I'll be ok if mine is with me by Christmas as it will have to travel to southern Australia.........

BB


----------



## cold war kid

I should have received mine today, but DPD Local told me it would be ready for collection before 12 noon and then left it sat at their depot in Eccles all day, so apparently I'll get it Monday now instead. Well played lads.


----------



## cold war kid

Robbo said:


> I am no. 1208 and have been told today i wont be getting mine until end of month when they expect the next batch of grind cups to arrive


That's not great.

I know for a fact that 1191 was despatched weeks ago and I'm 1194 and in the new batch going out. If you're 1208 and not getting yours until the end of the month that means they must have received less than 20 cups.

Why not 1000 or 10000? They'd be cheaper to buy and there'd be no more messing around waiting for cups coming in drips and drabs.


----------



## Beanbiken

Maybe it was a small sample of quality/standard from their new supplier so they may as well fulfill what orders they can?

BB


----------



## Robbo

Maybe they had a few returned units from the original batch sent out?


----------



## marknewham

ashcroc said:


> Don't forget to tape up the valve.


Thanks both i'll stick em in the freezer


----------



## randyr5

I'm #1432, December ship. Just hoping that when they get the cups, they get a LOT of them.


----------



## Viernes

coffeechap said:


> Yes I have! Will have to put some careful thought In How to present my findings so far, both positive and negative


So do you have any thoughts already?

I find you too silent about the Niche.







Cautious?

I just received mine BTW. Had the worst shots in years. LOL. Probably the worst ever, I think.


----------



## DavecUK

Viernes said:


> I just received mine BTW. Had the worst shots in years. LOL. Probably the worst ever, I think.


You do need to be grinding coffee in it for the shots to taste good


----------



## Viernes

DavecUK said:


> You do need to be grinding coffee in it for the shots to taste good


Rice does not work? duh









Haha. First 3 shots and I got 3 "awesome" big donuts extractions of the death.









No problem anyway, I'm just playing with this baby. I'll see.


----------



## coffeechap

Viernes said:


> So do you have any thoughts already?
> 
> I find you too silent about the Niche.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Cautious?
> 
> I just received mine BTW. Had the worst shots in years. LOL. Probably the worst ever, I think.


Not cautious at all just wanted to have a proper go with the one I am borrowing, hopefully put my thoughts up this weekend, like I said before both positive and negative! Interesting th you are not so keen! You have had some amazing grinders so your thoughts are welcomed here.


----------



## destiny

What are the delivery costs to UK for it? Was the price steady at £499 over the course of when it was available?


----------



## Robbo

If you were wandering where your Niche cups are...


----------



## Paul K

Has anyone with a November delivery date got their Niche yet?

Given there has been a 3/4 week delay in the cups I wasn't expecting the grinder in the first week of Nov.

I've had my 'Contribution Locked' since last week, but was advised it would be around the end of the month before I would receive the grinder.


----------



## Yannick

Nothing here.


----------



## hifimacianer

No, my contribution status is 'locked' since a few days, but I got no notification regarding shipment.


----------



## marknewham

Likewise November delivery stated and contribution locked but nothing yet


----------



## Beanbiken

I'm anticipating an Indegogo update to tell us that cups are in or soon to be prior to any shipping confirmation.

BB


----------



## Paul K

Beanbiken said:


> I'm anticipating an Indegogo update to tell us that cups are in or soon to be prior to any shipping confirmation.
> 
> BB


My Indiegogo refresh button has been refreshed so many times it doesn't work any more


----------



## Jony

Don't worry you should get it for the first week of December.


----------



## Paul K

Jony said:


> Don't worry you should get it for the first week of December.


----------



## marknewham

Here's hoping!


----------



## jonnycooper29

I'm excited for all of those that are waiting!


----------



## 2953

Wahey. Might even sneak the November deliveries to still actually be in November


----------



## marknewham

An update - FINALLY - Wahoooooo


----------



## Paul K

At last, forum will suddenly be awash with contribution numbers, emails and updates.


----------



## Rock Carver

And recommendations for beans to run through it........

Speaking of which, any existing owners have any particular favourites they can recommend? I'm thinking espresso blends personally.

I'm certainly going to revisit Red Brick and Gaslight and run them side by side my existing grinder.


----------



## chinery

cold war kid said:


> That's not great.
> 
> I know for a fact that 1191 was despatched weeks ago and I'm 1194 and in the new batch going out. If you're 1208 and not getting yours until the end of the month that means they must have received less than 20 cups.
> 
> Why not 1000 or 10000? They'd be cheaper to buy and there'd be no more messing around waiting for cups coming in drips and drabs.


Just seen the update today so going back through the recent posts... just thought I'd mention that I'm contribution 1186 and mine has definitely not shipped yet. Not sure how that works with the numbers but if you're sure 1191 has then are they not doing them in order?

Well, when it does finally arrive I just hope it lives up to the one I tried at DavecUK's! And that grind cup better be the best damn grind cup I've ever felt...


----------



## cold war kid

Yep. 1191 arrived in Oz about 6 weeks ago. I was 1194 and received mine a couple of weeks ago.

To be fair, the grind cup is very good quality, along with everything else.


----------



## lucas

I'm 1500+...it will take a while


----------



## Sean

Does it mean November orders or the ones predicted for November delivery.. hate me some ambiguity.


----------



## Paul K

Sean said:


> Does it mean November orders or the ones predicted for November delivery.. hate me some ambiguity.


November delivery


----------



## Sean

I'm about 350th in line to the throne so I'm forgetting about it altogether anyway.


----------



## Beanbiken

Sean said:


> I'm about 350th in line to the throne so I'm forgetting about it altogether anyway.


Cack


----------



## Jony

It comes when it comes, get a grip!


----------



## MalcolmH

I waited a year for mine!!


----------



## Sean

How dare you talk about your new grinder and the excitement and anticipation surrounding it!


----------



## Paul K

It's on its way


----------



## ashcroc

Paul K said:


> It's on its way


Still a November delivery!


----------



## Paul K

ashcroc said:


> Still a November delivery!


Yeah, just!

I was expecting it on Monday for some reason. Gives me the weekend to play with it


----------



## sumatra

Finally... got an email and text that mine is coming tomorrow.

Hopefully DPD won't screw this up.


----------



## DavecUK

sumatra said:


> Finally... got an email and text that mine is coming tomorrow.
> 
> Hopefully DPD won't screw this up.


You realise that by posting...sods law says it will now get screwed up.* I hope it doesn't arriv*e...that should have a similar effect to "break a leg" in the acting world and nullify your error. In fact to help you out further, I hope it arrives broken


----------



## 2953

Got my shipping notification too, I'm 1320 and ordered white.

Now... Shall I book the day off....


----------



## Paul K

petebetros said:


> Got my shipping notification too, I'm 1320 and ordered white.
> 
> Now... Shall I book the day off....


Eager anticipation!


----------



## Yannick

I just received the email too. #1317 and ordered a black one.

I will get my ECM Classika tomorrow, the grinder not too far behind ... and people said Santas doesn't exist ...


----------



## sumatra

DavecUK said:


> You realise that by posting...sods law says it will now get screwed up.* I hope it doesn't arriv*e...that should have a similar effect to "break a leg" in the acting world and nullify your error. In fact to help you out further, I hope it arrives broken


I jinxed it, didn't I?









Well hopefully your words will truly reverse it


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> You realise that by posting...sods law says it will now get screwed up.* I hope it doesn't arriv*e...that should have a similar effect to "break a leg" in the acting world and nullify your error. In fact to help you out further, I hope it arrives broken


Looks like I get to try weighing in on a Niche against a Mazzer Mini some time tomorrow. I get fluff and zero retention on the mini but the process is more than a bit tedious.

John

-


----------



## Paul K

ajohn said:


> Looks like I get to try weighing in on a Niche against a Mazzer Mini some time tomorrow. I get fluff and zero retention on the mini but the process is more than a bit tedious.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I'm just looking forward to chopping and changing beans without the hassle of cleaning the grinder everytime I do so.


----------



## ajohn

Paul K said:


> I'm just looking forward to chopping and changing beans without the hassle of cleaning the grinder everytime I do so.


I don't need to clean the mini if I change beans.







I have to use the brush a 3rd time to get the last sub 0.1g out, and LOL the first time in a rather strange place. 2nd use as usual.

John

-


----------



## DavecUK

ajohn said:


> I don't need to clean the mini if I change beans.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I have to use the brush a 3rd time to get the last sub 0.1g out, and LOL the first time in a rather strange place. 2nd use as usual.
> 
> John
> 
> -


how do you get the stuff out of the grinding chamber itself then John?


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> how do you get the stuff out of the grinding chamber itself then John?


Surprisingly it doesn't seem to stay there / what little is there gets permanent and doesn't amount to much at all. Off topic really. I use a weight over the beans so nothing finishes up stuck to the lens hood. Run till grinding stops, lift weight and brush around centre of burrs, brush out grinds in the exit, spin up, brush the rather small amount that leaves in the exit. That spin up splats grinds onto the funnel so brush that off as well. Lens hood a waste of time. I also discharge static to some extent. Having received a shock by touching the weight and the hopper chute while the grinder is running I now grind with my fingers doing that - no shock. This is with 2nd crack MM. The few times I have changed beans with it no signs of carry over at all - unlike with Sage, those took 2 shots to get rid of taste changes due to carry over.

So far this is the only way I have got good fluffy grinds with a flat burr grinder and these beans.

John

-


----------



## SimonB

Got delivery notification for Friday too, hoping this cold will have buggered off by tomorrow so I can enjoy it.


----------



## Downunder55

What great news to wake up to ...Santa making an early visit







...The anticipation builds ... mine has a little further to travel than most









My new Decent Espresso machine will be very happy to have a new best friend. .... Thanks Niche !


----------



## Yannick

Niche has arrived today !

I will give my first time user feelings ever later


----------



## Downunder55

Downunder55 said:


> What great news to wake up to ...Santa making an early visit
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...The anticipation builds ... mine has a little further to travel than most
> 
> View attachment 37702
> 
> 
> My new Decent Espresso machine will be very happy to have a new best friend. .... Thanks Niche !


Santa arrived this morning, 2 days earlier than the anticipated Thursday delivery .... got to be happy with that

Niche looks just beautiful, well made, well packaged .............. now I have no excuses other than to make a great coffee !

View attachment 37776


----------



## Pablosammy

I must have just missed out on that shipment! #1335 here, waiting patiently... ok, not patiently...


----------



## Pablosammy

IT'S COMING TODAY!


----------



## Cjogo

Got mine today. Deep joy. Very impressive. Just a thought but as I try to season the burrs perhaps I shall pass the results through the Kruve. Thinking aloud.


----------



## DavecUK

Cjogo said:


> Got mine today. Deep joy. Very impressive. Just a thought but as I try to season the burrs perhaps I shall pass the results through the Kruve. Thinking aloud.


I did that as well ( with the 12 sieve set)....have fun


----------



## dtapio

Has there been any talks or estimate when NZ would be off indiegogo? Would be interested to buy it but not via that channel.


----------



## Oblivion

dtapio said:


> Has there been any talks or estimate when NZ would be off indiegogo? Would be interested to buy it but not via that channel.


I've often wondered why they're still there. I suppose it's the cheapest option for them? Using a different sales format involves more cost and a price hike maybe.

I have wondered if they will sell out to a company like Mazzer....

Whatever happens my prediction is the price will rise as costs go up.

So far the Indiegogo route to ownership has proven reliable.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Oblivion said:


> I've often wondered why they're still there. I suppose it's the cheapest option for them? Using a different sales format involves more cost and a price hike maybe.
> 
> I have wondered if they will sell out to a company like Mazzer....
> 
> Whatever happens my prediction is the price will rise as costs go up.
> 
> So far the Indiegogo route to ownership has proven reliable.


I don't think Mazzer have any interest in the home market given the lack of innovations in that area by them.


----------



## 4085

I guess they intend to sell direct to the public. As long as indiegogo has mileage it gives them a chance to set up. All it will take is some merchandising software to replace the links. Everything goes up in price eventually but I would be surprise Dif they were not keen to hold the price as long as possible. I suspect this will be a relatively low sales volume product with no need to sell out to another.


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> I don't think Mazzer have any interest in the home market given the lack of innovations in that area by them.


or the commercial market


----------



## mikemaddux

DavecUK said:


> I did that as well ( with the 12 sieve set)....have fun


What were your Kruve test results for the Niche Zero?


----------



## matomoto

Today I have stuck (clog/jam) the grinder with a light roasting coffee, has it happened to you?

I tried to read and translate and I could not see anything.

a greeting

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

matomoto said:


> Today I have stuck (clog/jam) the grinder with a light roasting coffee, has it happened to you?


You are the first I know of....I couldn't jam it on a roast that was only 3/4 through 1st crack...so you have done well. What sort of grind were you doing and did you check for a foreign object in the coffee e.g. a coffee coloured stone? The other thing you ought to do is measure the power draw of the motor under no load and under load with those beans, get a video if you can of the grinding and power meter and definitely let Niche know, as I am sure the information would be valuable to them. At the moment there is not a lot for them to go on and it's not as if they have had anyone else report this to say..aha we know what's happening?

P.S. Tell them your country and standard mains voltage, it's possible you had a severe voltage drop at the time, *especially if the jam it's not reproducible*. However, I am under volting a 120V US grinder down to 106V and it's been fine, but I always drink coffee that has finished 1st crack or greater..

P.P.S. A *Video with sound* will help Niche decide if the grinder is struggling with those beans even if it does grind them fine another time and if it jams does it just jam with no warning....as it's not beyond the realms of possibility that there is some other problem.


----------



## filthynines

dtapio said:


> Has there been any talks or estimate when NZ would be off indiegogo? Would be interested to buy it but not via that channel.


I asked this exact question of them, because I'm concerned that my credit card company would not step in if it all went bump in the night. The answer was that they like the simplicity of the Indiegogo platform at this stage in the life of the business. I can't blame them, and it doesn't seem to be doing them much harm.


----------



## ajohn

dtapio said:


> Has there been any talks or estimate when NZ would be off indiegogo? Would be interested to buy it but not via that channel.


I don't think it's available any other way anywhere at the moment.







The only precaution I took was paying via credit card in case it never turned up. Probably futile and they had been turning up anyway.

Perhaps currently we are all beta testers. Perhaps Mr Niche is going around trying to find outlets prepared to sell it. Perhaps things will remain as they are for ever. There are rather a lot of perhaps's. One good aspect is that the machine has been "tooled up" rather than the other method used with alternate grinders where someone has found somebody with a cnc machine and produces a grinder by bolting etc bits and pieces together.

John

-


----------



## 4085

They are not selling the grinder through any retailers to the best of my knowledge as this would simply increase costs. I do not know when the Indiegogo thing will expire but it will have to eventually. @filthynines when there have been 1000 sales through indiegogo with no reported fraud or grinders not turning up, are you sure you are not being a tad over cautious?


----------



## Zagato

I would have thought using something like Stripe on their own website would make it easy to sell direct.


----------



## bobbee

matomoto said:


> Today I have stuck (clog/jam) the grinder with a light roasting coffee, has it happened to you?
> 
> I tried to read and translate and I could not see anything.
> 
> a greeting
> 
> Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


Maybe you changed the grind setting to a finer grind while you already loaded beans in the grinder and that way pressed some beans between the burrs?

I've had some La Cabra coffee in the Niche, few days back, doesn't get any lighter than that. Was no problem for the Niche.


----------



## matomoto

DavecUK said:


> You are the first I know of....I couldn't jam it on a roast that was only 3/4 through 1st crack...so you have done well. What sort of grind were you doing and did you check for a foreign object in the coffee e.g. a coffee coloured stone? The other thing you ought to do is measure the power draw of the motor under no load and under load with those beans, get a video if you can of the grinding and power meter and definitely let Niche know, as I am sure the information would be valuable to them. At the moment there is not a lot for them to go on and it's not as if they have had anyone else report this to say..aha we know what's happening?
> 
> P.S. Tell them your country and standard mains voltage, it's possible you had a severe voltage drop at the time, *especially if the jam it's not reproducible*. However, I am under volting a 120V US grinder down to 106V and it's been fine, but I always drink coffee that has finished 1st crack or greater..
> 
> P.P.S. A *Video with sound* will help Niche decide if the grinder is struggling with those beans even if it does grind them fine another time and if it jams does it just jam with no warning....as it's not beyond the realms of possibility that there is some other problem.


That same day I tried other beans and everything was great.

Today I returned with that natural ethiopia and it has happened again.

The voltages subject maybe surpasses me a little.



bobbee said:


> Maybe you changed the grind setting to a finer grind while you already loaded beans in the grinder and that way pressed some beans between the burrs?
> 
> I've had some La Cabra coffee in the Niche, few days back, doesn't get any lighter than that. Was no problem for the Niche.


With coffee from La Cabra (Costa Rica los altos natural and honey) nothing happened to me and roasting was light. The beans that got stuck was an ethiopia natural of small caliber and hard as a demon (mormora state)

Enviado desde mi CLT-L29 mediante Tapatalk


----------



## filthynines

dfk41 said:


> They are not selling the grinder through any retailers to the best of my knowledge as this would simply increase costs. I do not know when the Indiegogo thing will expire but it will have to eventually. @filthynines when there have been 1000 sales through indiegogo with no reported fraud or grinders not turning up, are you sure you are not being a tad over cautious?


Possibly so. They are slowly building themselves a good reputation of the kind which should put anybody's mind at rest. But at the back of my mind I continue to think small company, limited resources (hence crowdfunding), and so what will happen *if* they go bump in the night? I see a bigger risk in never getting the unit in the first place, as opposed to a need for repair. But the risk appears smaller by the day.

edit: And part of the Indiegogo use is undoubtedly the cost. But like somebody said: there are low-cost, consumer-friendly avenues for them to take in terms of the retail. It's just not their priority right now; which I fully understand.


----------



## 4085

filthynines said:


> Possibly so. They are slowly building themselves a good reputation of the kind which should put anybody's mind at rest. But at the back of my mind I continue to think small company, limited resources (hence crowdfunding), and so what will happen *if* they go bump in the night? I see a bigger risk in never getting the unit in the first place, as opposed to a need for repair. But the risk appears smaller by the day.
> 
> edit: And part of the Indiegogo use is undoubtedly the cost. But like somebody said: there are low-cost, consumer-friendly avenues for them to take in terms of the retail. It's just not their priority right now; which I fully understand.


When they crowdfunded, they did so purely to pay the tooling costs. Everything else up to that stage had been paid for out of their own pocket, and let me tell you, with 5 years of pre testing before @DavecUK got his hands on it, that was substantial.....I can only think that you do not want one enough to prevent you taking the same leap of faith 1000 others have!

I have just sold my go to grinder and going forward will use only the Niche. For me, that was no small question but I cannot imagine what could go wrong with a grinder that has been so publicly examined as this


----------



## filthynines

@dfk41 You are right insofar as I don't want one at any cost. They are not fly-by-nights, of that I am sure. I have found little to doubt their credentials so far. But I am risk averse when it comes to consumer goods because it's often not worth the hassle of pursuing legal avenues to obtain resolution if things go wrong. It's the same approach as I would take buying from Lakeland instead of Argos, for example. I want the additional consumer protection, it's as simple as that.

That said, if they started taking credit card payments by website tomorrow I would still be sitting here waiting before pressing "Buy" because my money needs to be spent on other things as a matter of priority at the moment. So I don't think Niche should spend too much time worrying about me and my quibbles. But if a few people start to make the same noises then I think they would be well-served going down the conventional direct retail route.


----------



## tohenk2

Don't forget that Indiegogo has a really wide spread and big userbase. If I were to set up shop tomorrow I could put up a website and all - would you notice? And if you did, would you care? (I think that will be a "NO" x2)

With over a 1000 units sold and not a problem to speak of to date, I think Niche did rather well. And the grinder itself is superb.

(I backed something else from Indiegogo. The packet is supposedly on its way -I still have to get it- but I can tell you I am targeted with spam, phising e-mails and sms-es that could only be generated by someone with inside info. Phising was confirmed by DPD although SF seems to be shipping it.)


----------



## cold war kid

Of all the niche owners who've posted on forums about their experience, the only problems I can remember ( not including my delivery fiasco which can't really be blamed on them ) are one person whose grinder arrived with the burrs turning the wrong way and a few people early on noticing grind setting drift. I'm sure there are others that I've missed but the reputation of both the product and the people behind it has proved rock solid. You are however backing a campaign and although Niche have even gone to the unusual step of giving a warranty, there is still no legal way for you to retrieve your money if things went wrong. If you want to be totally sure that every base is covered then the only option is to find a local sale that you can collect in person and see the machine working before you hand over the cash. You may have a very long wait.


----------



## Dylan

I assume the IGG link is now immidiate purchase? If that's the case I'm pretty sure you have standard consumed protections as it no longer counts as backing a crowdfunding campaign. (I can't check right now but I think that's how it works and would make legal/logical sense)

I'm addition of something went wrong before delivery you could likely chargeback of for some reason Niche didn't sort you out and they are also providing a warranty which is perfectly binding.

Whilst those of us who backed earlier on and got a discount took a level of risk, I think it is now equivalent to actual purchase.

Please double check all of this and don't take my word...


----------



## DavecUK

It's a slightly pointless discussion because



filthynines said:


> I want the additional consumer protection, it's as simple as that.
> 
> That said, if they started taking credit card payments by website tomorrow I would still be sitting here waiting before pressing "Buy" because my money needs to be spent on other things as a matter of priority at the moment. So I don't think Niche should spend too much time worrying about me and my quibbles. But if a few people start to make the same noises then I think they would be well-served going down the conventional direct retail route.


I think it goes under the category of advice to Niche should more people start making the same comments...Niche must be very busy building, packing and despatching grinders, so perhaps it will be a while before they take on board all the valuable feedback like this.


----------



## cold war kid

Dylan said:


> I assume the IGG link is now immidiate purchase? If that's the case I'm pretty sure you have standard consumed protections as it no longer counts as backing a crowdfunding campaign. (I can't check right now but I think that's how it works and would make legal/logical sense)
> 
> I'm addition of something went wrong before delivery you could likely chargeback of for some reason Niche didn't sort you out and they are also providing a warranty which is perfectly binding.
> 
> Whilst those of us who backed earlier on and got a discount took a level of risk, I think it is now equivalent to actual purchase.
> 
> Please double check all of this and don't take my word...


.

If something went wrong before delivery with any crowdfunding campaign at any point, you wouldn't be able to use chargeback because you're not buying a product, you're backing a project with perks, it doesn't matter if there's stock available ( which there isn't ) because you aren't buying that stock.

Niche have been excellent and trustworthy/transparent from the start, but I'm very surprised that a company would be allowed to use this platform indefinitely because unscrupulous traders can easily use it as a loophole to get around consumer protection and warranty laws. The risk is only smaller now in the sense that there's so many good reports of service and grinders out in the wild, other than that nothing's changed. If you were to try and order one today, this is the message you get before you can begin the process

Risk & Crowdfunding: The payment you are about to make is a contribution to the campaign and not a direct purchase. Indiegogo does not guarantee that the perks offered by the campaigner will be produced or delivered

As Dave says, it's a mute discussion to filthynines but does need to be made clear.


----------



## filthynines

@Dylan As a lawyer I have reached the conclusion I would not have the protection. Cold War kid gives the exact reason why. He also gives the reason why I was initially concerned and why I went straight to Niche to get an explanation.

Honestly, it's probably just my professional hat screwed on a bit too tight. But as a principle I don't like the idea that Indiegogo can be used as a retail POS indefinitely. The crowdfund was to get the product to market, and that end has been achieved. The crowdfund properly circumvented consumer law because of the risk involved. But now the product has come to market in a sustainable fashion and it should be bought and sold in the usual way.

It's genuinely interesting as a legal problem. Now I think about it I would probably run an argument to trial that the transaction now is a straight up sale of goods because you can call the transaction what you like but that doesn't mean the effect in law is what you hope for. I think that's something for LinkedIn and my professional audience, though.

I'll leave this topic here for the time being, but happy to discuss should anybody feel the need (doubtful). Great product, will bide my time.


----------



## 4085

filthynines said:


> @Dylan As a lawyer I have reached the conclusion I would not have the protection. Cold War kid gives the exact reason why. He also gives the reason why I was initially concerned and why I went straight to Niche to get an explanation.
> 
> Honestly, it's probably just my professional hat screwed on a bit too tight. But as a principle I don't like the idea that Indiegogo can be used as a retail POS indefinitely. The crowdfund was to get the product to market, and that end has been achieved. The crowdfund properly circumvented consumer law because of the risk involved. But now the product has come to market in a sustainable fashion and it should be bought and sold in the usual way.
> 
> It's genuinely interesting as a legal problem. Now I think about it I would probably run an argument to trial that the transaction now is a straight up sale of goods because you can call the transaction what you like but that doesn't mean the effect in law is what you hope for. I think that's something for LinkedIn and my professional audience, though.
> 
> I'll leave this topic here for the time being, but happy to discuss should anybody feel the need (doubtful). Great product, will bide my time.


I just don't get it with you. Unless you were taking the mick, you have already stated that you have no intention of getting one, so why bother coming on here and giving us all the benefit of your ultra cautious approach. As stated, 1000 others have seen fit to carry out a transaction you have no intention of completing....time will tell who is right


----------



## Dylan

@cold war kid

That is true of the crowd funding stage. I was under the impression that an IGG campaign could be maintained as a 'storefront' with the guarantee of delivery. But I may just be getting confused with some of IGG's campaigns which offer guaranteed delivery out of the gate.

Either way, now the campaign is evidently complete and delivering grinders it seems pretty obviously an outright purchase and it would be difficult to argue otherwise from a legal standpoint. But at this stage it shouldn't even be a question - and I agree with both the above posts that it seems very odd for IGG to keep allowing orders after a product has come to market.

edit: I dropp IGG an email with these questions. If they are anything like KS they wont bother to reply.


----------



## filthynines

@dfk41 Your shitty attitude towards people on occasion is honestly one of the worst aspects of this forum. I don't know what your problem is but feel free to keep it to yourself.


----------



## L&R

I tried to order one using PayPal because it is safe and I have money in my account, but unfortunately they didn't accept this method neither in indiegogo, neither directly the inventor and producer.


----------



## 4085

filthynines said:


> @dfk41 Your shitty attitude towards people on occasion is honestly one of the worst aspects of this forum. I don't know what your problem is but feel free to keep it to yourself.


My problem is people like you who due to the nature of their profession, seem to think that the public are stupid. This is implied by the fact that you disagree with what 1000 others do not. What have I said exactly? Did you or did you not say you had no intention of buying one.....please correct me. If you are not a member of a club and do not want to join, then stop pontificating. The fact you are a lawyer may impress some on here but not me.


----------



## filthynines

dfk41 said:


> My problem is people like you who due to the nature of their profession, seem to think that the public are stupid. This is implied by the fact that you disagree with what 1000 others do not. What have I said exactly? Did you or did you not say you had no intention of buying one.....please correct me. If you are not a member of a club and do not want to join, then stop pontificating. The fact you are a lawyer may impress some on here but not me.


I couldn't care less whether you or anybody else is impressed by my profession. I refer to it only to point out that I'm coming from a place where I know what I'm talking about and not just speculating. Nor do I think the public are stupid. There are a couple of people at least who have shared the same concern as me. "People like you" just shows that you've made assumptions about me for which you have no foundation. On forums like this a lot of misinformation is banded around that members of the public might take as gospel without checking the facts. If I can help with that then I do. If I legitimately think that pointing out that I'm a lawyer will help satisfy people that I'm speaking with knowledge then I say so. I think I've dropped it maybe four times in my couple of years on here; I challenge you to find an occasion where I've said it just to grandstand.

I did not say I had no intention of buying one. There is a handful of people on this forum that would know without checking that I have actively sought one. I did however say that I won't be buying one short term. I'm as entitled to my opinion as you are, and I have no interest in changing anybody's. I'm also unclear as to what you think I "disagree with what 1000 others do not"; but nor do I care.

You're a particular flavour of keyboard warrior; akin to the bloke who sits in the pub and shouts loudest to make sure that he wins the argument. You are very confrontational on occasion, and I don't know why.

Please feel free to PM me with further comments. Please feel free to keep it off the public forum, since I think you get a kick out of giving digs in public that might get "likes" or might get encouraging comments. That's an assumption I've made about you, but I think there's more evidence pointing to that.

Apologies to others for derailing this discussion with this post and my previous one.


----------



## Batian

filthynines said:


> @dfk41 Your shitty attitude towards people on occasion is honestly one of the worst aspects of this forum. I don't know what your problem is but feel free to keep it to yourself.


I am pleased to hear (and consider) opinion from one who is qualified to give it. It makes a welcome change to hear from a lawyer rather than the barrack room/keyboard warrior variety.

Thanks @filthynines.


----------



## 4085

@filthynines @dfk41 You are right insofar as I don't want one at any cost.

I do not sit in the pub and shout. I am teetotal and spend 100% of my time acting as a carer for my disabled wife, neither do I have to shout to win an argument. @Batian

When are you going to grow up and stop sniping from the wings constantly because we crossed swords once upon a time.

I will make it easy. There was no one on my ignore list......now there are two


----------



## filthynines

The sensible solution. I was thinking along the same lines.


----------



## Stanic

filthynines said:


> You're a particular flavour of keyboard warrior; akin to the bloke who sits in the pub and shouts loudest to make sure that he wins the argument.


spot on mate


----------



## Agentb

I can provide experience of what happens when indiegogo problems develop.

A combination of several issues ended up with me placing orders for 4 Niches instead of one (in May iirc).









The website did not give positive feedback (email delivery problems). It took a few weeks to solve, but it was solved by Niche and i received a full refund. Mostly my fault for email issues.

After I had my first Niche, it would not have actually bothered me to get three more - i could resell these easily at a profit.

It is impressive a small company can make a product of this high quality, and i'm fully aware of the risks of dealing with a small company.

A large company would not share the development and testing we have seen.

Indiegogo or indinogo - it makes no difference to how the coffee tastes.


----------



## Phil104

Agentb said:


> I can provide experience of what happens when indiegogo problems develop.
> 
> A combination of several issues ended up with me placing orders for 4 Niches instead of one (in May iirc).
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The website did not give positive feedback (email delivery problems). It took a few weeks to solve, but it was solved by Niche and i received a full refund. Mostly my fault for email issues.
> 
> After I had my first Niche, it would not have actually bothered me to get three more - i could resell these easily at a profit.
> 
> It is impressive a small company can make a product of this high quality, and i'm fully aware of the risks of dealing with a small company.
> 
> A large company would not share the development and testing we have seen.
> 
> Indiegogo or indinogo - it makes no difference to how the coffee tastes.


Indeed, let's not lose sight of what Martin, Annie and James have achieved with what remains a stunning grinder. It has exceeded all my expectations and if I have needed to contact them, the response has been prompt and positive.


----------



## cold war kid

Phil104 said:


> Indeed, let's not lose sight of what Martin, Annie and James have achieved with what remains a stunning grinder. It has exceeded all my expectations and if I have needed to contact them, the response has been prompt and positive.


Although, I've always had reservations about indiegogo I would like to agree with this.

I'm one of a very small group of people who've had a problem and needed to email Niche.

Indiegogo only allow emails of 500 characters which .made communication difficult, but once they were on the case it was sorted promptly and professionally.


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## 4085

cold war kid said:


> Although, I've always had reservations about indiegogo I would like to agree with this.
> 
> I'm one of a very small group of people who've had a problem and needed to email Niche.
> 
> Indiegogo only allow emails of 500 characters which .made communication difficult, but once they were on the case it was sorted promptly and professionally.


Why not visit their website and email them directly

[email protected]


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## L&R

They are responsive on their Facebook page too, messages.


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## ajohn

Dylan said:


> @cold war kid
> 
> That is true of the crowd funding stage. I was under the impression that an IGG campaign could be maintained as a 'storefront' with the guarantee of delivery. But I may just be getting confused with some of IGG's campaigns which offer guaranteed delivery out of the gate.
> 
> Either way, now the campaign is evidently complete and delivering grinders it seems pretty obviously an outright purchase and it would be difficult to argue otherwise from a legal standpoint. But at this stage it shouldn't even be a question - and I agree with both the above posts that it seems very odd for IGG to keep allowing orders after a product has come to market.
> 
> edit: I dropp IGG an email with these questions. If they are anything like KS they wont bother to reply.


There has been changes to the grinder on the way 2 I'm aware of. This is why I mentioned beta testing earlier - term usually used with software except often even with windows it's provided for free. Crowd funding adds another complication - here people are paying for the development of the product and in this case tooling to make it. Probably salaries too. We have no idea at what point they actually start showing a profit over all and more changes may be needed in the future. I'd be inclined to feel that when crowd funding is used a beta period is more or less essential - more people using it etc.

The other problem Niche have is how many they will sell and just how they will be sold and the quantities needed to suite the variations in demand. I suppose they could make 1000 for instance and stick them in a cupboard and sell as needed. That will influence price as they will be looking for a decent return on the capital they have invested. Fine if they could sell in a week maybe but what if it took 3 years. Batches which is what the seem to be doing make a lot of sense as it's manageable. Seems that they do some or all of the assembly themselves. Past some point they would need to employ. It's new too so a lot of current home espresso people may want it. Once that market is saturated ????








I suspect a defence legal eagle would come up with a number of reasons why it is still a project

There has always been a certain amount of interest in manufacturers selling directly. In this case it's more designers and assemblers who given the volumes probably own certain tooling items. Retailers want a profit margin but given Mr Niche's background that may be built in. No way of knowing. Indiegogo also has a market place. On that things have to arrive on time. Not really suitable for situations where something may change and it taking weeks to get parts. They have upped their batch quantities recently. I'd suspect that ebay may be a logical next step. Indiegogo isn't free

https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/204456408-Fees-Pricing-for-Campaigners-How-much-does-Indiegogo-cost-

John

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## 4085

@ajohn. I'd suspect that ebay may be a logical next step. Indiegogo isn't free

......neither is Ebay. In case you had not noticed, they have a global market. I doubt the sale of 1000 will saturate it. They are only a small team and are probably more concerned with honouring present sales quickly to get them out on time, than worrying too much about the future. The aim was always to sell direct. Fr them, the only changes needed, as has already been said is to remove the Indiegogo link from their website and stick their own merchandising on


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## ajohn

dfk41 said:


> @ajohn. I'd suspect that ebay may be a logical next step. Indiegogo isn't free
> 
> ......neither is Ebay. In case you had not noticed, they have a global market. I doubt the sale of 1000 will saturate it. They are only a small team and are probably more concerned with honouring present sales quickly to get them out on time, than worrying too much about the future. The aim was always to sell direct. Fr them, the only changes needed, as has already been said is to remove the Indiegogo link from their website and stick their own merchandising on


I man with a well established business with a pretty hefty turnover once pointed out something interesting to me that I think is correct. He did take out whole page adverts in certain magazines and found that ebay worked out significantly cheaper and offered much better exposure. The readership is enormous.

Niches exposure currently is mostly in coffee forums. I've come across a number of grinders that I had no idea existed that just sit on some web page some where or the other.

So called me too's may crop up. It's very hard to protect a design.

Anyway Mr Niche is probably well aware of what he intends to do.

Market saturation - too much trouble to expand on that but price does influence potential sales.

John

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## cold war kid

dfk41 said:


> Why not visit their website and email them directly
> 
> [email protected]


I'm not sure as it's a few months ago, but I suspect I'd have just followed the contact link in the email informing me of delivery.

The problem for me was purely down to DPD Local and nothing to do with the grinder itself. Basically they failed to deliver twice, then blew me out and just said they "thought" they'd lost it and to just get in touch with Niche to sort it, which wasn't really acceptable but ended up happening.


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## Dylan

Dylan said:


> edit: I dropp IGG an email with these questions. If they are anything like KS they wont bother to reply.


Just to follow up on this, here is the conversation I had with IGG.



> Hi Dylan,
> 
> Thanks for writing in. I was able to check on the campaign you mentioned and I see that it's already on InDemand mode. Campaigns on InDemand are allowed to accept more contributions even after their initial campaign run, as long as they were able to reach their initial funding goal. Most campaigns on InDemand are those that are already in Production stage and some also offers additional perks on their campaign.
> 
> Let us know if you have other concerns.





> And what are the ramifications for this in terms of consumer rights. Is an item purchased during the 'InDemand' stage subject to the same consumer protections as a purchase from an actual online store or is it still classed as 'backing' a crowdfunding campaign?





> Indiegogo is not able to guarantee that perks will be delivered or deemed satisfactory. The nature of crowdfunding is such that campaigns on Indiegogo are raising funds for work-in-progress projects, ideas, or causes. Backing a campaign and claiming a perk on Indiegogo is not the same as buying something online. Because projects may still be in their early stages, many things can happen between the time the project is raising funds and the expected project release date. While your contribution brings the campaign idea closer to becoming reality, there's always the chance that a project may end up falling through, and the campaigner may not be able to offer their backers the perks they'd originally promised.
> 
> That said, campaigners are still held by our Terms of Use to fulfill perks. If for any reason they're unable to offer you the perk you claimed, campaigners are obligated to reach out to their contributors and work out a mutually satisfactory resolution- this resolution could be an alternative perk, a promise to issue the promised perk at a later date if the campaign owner is able to raise additional funds, or a refund. Indiegogo cannot moderate these discussions and any resolution would occur directly between the campaigner and backer. We always recommend opening up a conversation with the campaigner if you have any question about what will happen to your contribution if the campaigner is unable to raise the funds they need to complete their project





> Hi,
> 
> So you have two conflicting pieces of information here:
> 
> A campaign is on 'In Demand' mode - which is often when the campaign is already in production and has completed its initial production run.
> 
> However
> 
> Anyone who then 'backs' a campaign on 'In Demand' mode is still supposedly waiving their consumer rights because they are:
> 
> "raising funds for work-in-progress projects, ideas, or causes. Backing a campaign and claiming a perk on Indiegogo is not the same as buying something online. "
> 
> This is clearly contradictory. It seems campaigns are allowed to indefinitely use 'In Demand' mode to continue to sell products after their campaign is over without the significant impact associated with providing adequate consumer rights.


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## filthynines

@Dylan Thanks for looking into that further. That seems consistent with what I read on their website.

Ultimately it's a question of fact and law whether a product purchased in this way amounts to a sale of goods. Indiegogo can't conclusively determine that one way or the other. Indiegogo should care because they *may* be held to be a retailer and therefore the party against whom a Consumer Rights Act remedy could be pursued. I think that's unlikely though, because they'd probably successfully argue they're just a conduit. Credit card companies should also consider it carefully because that will likely affect their liability under consumer credit legislation.


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## Dylan

Yea, I have just referred it to the ombudsmen as it seems seriously shady, but as I don't have a complaint against an actual interaction I think they will just dismiss it.


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## filthynines

Dylan said:


> Yea, I have just referred it to the ombudsmen as it seems seriously shady, but as I don't have a complaint against an actual interaction I think they will just dismiss it.


Which Ombudsman have you taken it to? Even if this sort of discussion drops off this thread, I'd be interested in knowing more.


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## Dylan

Financial Services, feel free to drop me a PM


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## 4085

If it is FOS (Financial Services Ombudsman) then there is a set procedure to follow. you have to complain to the company, giving them the chance to reply. you must receive a written response stating that this is their final position, BEFORE you can pass this onto the Ombudsman


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## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> If it is FOS (Financial Services Ombudsman) then there is a set procedure to follow. you have to complain to the company, giving them the chance to reply. you must receive a written response stating that this is their final position, BEFORE you can pass this onto the Ombudsman


Aye. But I have no complaint. It's why I expect it to fail. I'll look at submitting it to the OFT as well but it's likely to be similar.


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## _HH_

Dylan said:


> Aye. But I have no complaint. It's why I expect it to fail. I'll look at submitting it to the OFT as well but it's likely to be similar.


I'm not really sure I understand why you're doing this...? You either accept that buying the niche via this platform presents an additional set of risks, weigh this up in your mind and then purchase through this platform or choose not to. What benefit is there in complaining to an ombudsman about an issue that seems to be more a personal dislike of a particular sales platform? It sounds as though trading in this way is not specific to Niche if Indiegogo have stated that campaigns on indemand mode are allowed to be run in such a way.

This isn't meant as a criticism, I just wondered what your reasoning was?


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## ashcroc

_HH_ said:


> I'm not really sure I understand why you're doing this...? You either accept that buying the niche via this platform presents and additional set of risks, weigh this up in your mind and then purchase through this platform or choose not to. What benefit is there in complaining to an ombudsman about an issue that seems to be more a personal dislike of a particular sales platform? It sounds as though trading in this way is not specific to Niche if Indiegogo have stated that campaigns on indemand mode are allowed to be run in such a way.
> 
> This isn't meant as a criticism, I just wondered what your reasoning was?


Legal clarification? I suspect it won't be fully decided until a project in 'in demand mode' fails & someone takes it &/or indiegogo to court.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## filthynines

Dylan can speak for himself, but I'm not sure the complaint is against Niche per se. Niche is simply using the tools that are legitimately and legally available for them. However - and I would discuss this with anybody at Niche if they so asked - where Niche has the potential to go wrong is if they one day rely on what Indiegogo say are the rights and obligations Niche hold under a "funding" round. The corollary is that a consumer might not receive their rightful remedy in such a situation. That's an Indiegogo trait; not specific to Niche.

However, as throughout, the way that the people responsible for Niche have conducted themselves seems to have been without criticism.


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## filthynines

ashcroc said:


> Legal clarification? I suspect it won't be fully decided until a project in 'in demand mode' fails & someone takes it &/or indiegogo to court.
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


Yeah, this. And I think hell freezing over may be sooner. In this country, at least...


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## Dylan

I haven't mentioned Niche at all in the 'complaint'.

Basically - you can tell people until your dying breath that crowdfunding projects (note: not 'InDemand' but actual crowdfunding campaigns) are not buying a product but they are giving a company money with the *potential* of a reward if everything goes well. This wont change the hundreds of backers who demand their money back when a project fails.

My point here is that despite what any company may claim as their own legal definition, what actually matters (both morally and legally) is how the consumer is perceiving things - if it can be proven to be misleading or unclear then it wont stand in court. This is irrelevant however until its tested legally, think Uber paying millions of 'contractors' rather than having employees - it has to be tested in court for a clear definition to be defined.

So why complain about In Demand? Well the reason I write the above is that I think crowdfunding is already questionable from a consumer rights stand point. But that said you can see the reasonable argument that this helps small companies bring products to market and the terms are clear. With InDemand there is no such argument, the company is no longer seeking funding to being a product to market - this has already happened. The product is already on the production line and the only thing the company is doing is taking orders and fulfilling them (an over simplification, but from the consumer standpoint this is all that matters) - ordering a product on 'InDemand' is precisely the same thing as buying something on 'back order' - but it supposedly comes with zero consumer protection. I cant see any way in which this is reasonable or fair and if it takes ten minutes of my time to try and bring it to the attention of a bod that might be able to decide on it's fairness then why not. As I said, I expect they shall reject it out of hand anyway.

edit: I realise this is complete off topic now, as we are talking about IGG and not Niche, I don't think there is an enormous amount to add to the above, but people want to discuss it perhaps it should be split into it's own thread.


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## 4085

but Dylan, whilst I understand and agree, in the case of Niche, they have demonstrated a willingness to resolve any issues, and I would imagine will do in the future


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## Dylan

dfk41 said:


> but Dylan, whilst I understand and agree, in the case of Niche, they have demonstrated a willingness to resolve any issues, and I would imagine will do in the future


I believe I covered that with



> I haven't mentioned Niche at all in the 'complaint'.


and



> I realise this is complete off topic now, as we are talking about IGG and not Niche, I don't think there is an enormous amount to add to the above, but people want to discuss it perhaps it should be split into it's own thread.


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## 4085

Dylan said:


> I believe I covered that with
> 
> and


Not saying that you did not. Point I am making is that it seems to point hat popular phrase at the moment of being a Unicorn


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## ajohn

I can't see much point in your comments Dylan. It doesn't matter to me that I may have bought from either form of crowd funding that is offered. Just like all I would expect I was well aware that there is a chance that I would get nothing. Highly unlikely when I bought a Niche as supplies were coming out and they were very close to meeting their dates - mine did - arrived last day of the month.

Actually Indiegogo do seem to have some sort of reimbursement mechanism if projects fail. There are a number of reasons I wouldn't have any faith in it but that's besides the point. Eg Say a Ltd company fails just as I have ordered something of them that doesn't arrive or proves faulty. I have had that happen. The same thing can happen with none ltd companies. I see crowd funding as another form of a company. If things go wrong legal costs can be way more than the loss and often their is nothing there to pay a claim anyway.

They have other problems as well. Current batch size is 35. Maybe nee Niche's husband has joined the fray so they can now offer 35 rather than 10. At the new rate it would take them over 2 years to produce a 1000. This is where indemand kicks in - scaling up - no surprise there. The 35 has a problem as well. Stretching things a little time wise it will take longer for some one to take a mould of a machine, fit the tool for the lid, set up and check than it will to produce 35 lids. Then time needs to be added for them to arrive. Maybe they will get lost or broken. Maybe quality will be off - distortion or flash in this case. I doubt if anybody would be happy about making just 35 of them anyway. If there was some form of Niche factory the people would have to sit around doing nothing until any problems were fixed.

Changing some aspect of the design has problems as well. It's already extended time scales. More may crop up. This too can be a nightmare if there is some sort of factory involved. Lead times for parts can be long. When they arrive they may have problems and etc.

Frankly I feel that anybody who expects anything different to the way Niche is currently offered is in need of a reality check but I am a d&d engineer that works on products. Much larger scale but actually that aspect makes things much worse. Increasing the numbers always does. Niche is small so numbers need to be sized to suite their capabilities. As mentioned it wouldn't surprise me if they remained just making and selling batches. Sort of thing Morgan cars and others have done actually in a slightly different fashion







there you pay and wait much longer.

John

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## Dylan

Not sure how I can put this any more simply.



> I realise this is complete off topic now, as we are talking about IGG and not Niche, I don't think there is an enormous amount to add to the above, but people want to discuss it perhaps it should be split into it's own thread.


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## filthynines

I can't agree with your comments, Ajohn. This is a company, as I have been repeatedly told, that has sold more than 1,000 units at somewhere between £350 and £500 each. These are being sold to consumers as a consumer product and buyers deserve the protection. Consumer protection is meant to come from the retailer; arguably in this instance it is Indiegogo, since they are providing their platform as a service and take a cut for the same.

They can build batches for as long as they like. In fact, I would encourage it. Anything to keep quality high. If they can scale sustainably then that is wonderful for them too, and they deserve that success. But everything you have said in terms of scaling up supports the need for consumer protection rather than detracting from the argument, because they all signal new risks to the consumer.

As we've seen, there's a timeline of crowdfunding. When in prototype mode I can fully see the need for a platform like Indiegogo to fall outside regulation. If not then innovation is likely to be stifled because there risk to IGG would go up and so would the cost to makers like Niche. But now they're fully established and churning out grinders as a finished product I don't see the justification to fall outside that regulation. The point is that if Indiegogo were to be expressly told (by OFT, the courts, or otherwise) that they must treat themselves as a retailer under the Consumer Rights Act 2015, then they would need to put the same procedures and infrastructure in place that every other retailer in the country should have in place.

Everybody is happy whilst everything is going well. Considering the frequency of posters in the For Sale forum asking "is there transferable warranty with this?", I don't think my views are held by as few people as it appears from the responses I've had. The difference is that in this instance there is a great deal of loyalty and goodwill held for Niche, and it sounds as though that's richly deserved. Once again, it's a case of "don't hate the player, hate the game".


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## tohenk2

Please split all the legal talk about IGG in a separate thread.


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## filthynines

tohenk2 said:


> Please split all the legal talk about IGG in a separate thread.


I'm very happy for this to happen. I will set up a thread now, and I expect it'll be me plus one or two others echoing off the walls.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?48308-Niche-Grinder-legal-offshoot&p=657016#post657016


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## ajohn

This all off topic really in a Niche thread. I can't understand why people can't see that it is still a project and that further development might take place. Currently you might say there is one long term user @DavecUK. Wonderful man etc but not a guarantee that all is ok. A 1000 users is likely to provide a lot more information than one who ever they are. Companies sometimes make the statement that they reserve the right to change anything in a product so Niche could sell differently and do the same. Afraid I see Niche in all aspects as still being a project. They actually do offer a warrantee but on the face of it needn't. Throw in all consumer rights and suddenly they have to be prepared to accept returns for any reason subject it seems to some time limit. In fact web sales platforms have that sort of thing built in for when they cease to be of any help. Even Paypal has one.

A 1000 might sound like a lot. Lets take TV's just in the UK. Seems there are 30million of them. Lets be daft and say they get changed every 10 years. That's still 3 million sales a year and that number will apply to a number of things. Maybe they should make a couple some how and get Davec or someone to say they are ok and then expose themselves to full consumer rights which in practice sometimes turn out not to be as good as they are reckoned to be. One thing they would need to accept is returns. They might even have to have the product tested for emissions. Many things are and tested in several other ways. They will have been included in standard regulations that apply to all things that are sold.

Indiegogo fill an interesting need really. Tie it up with too many this's and that's and it wont. Some seem to think that Niche is taking advantage. I don't think they are in the real world. Just using a method that limits liability and also producing a product at a price level that I suspect is unlikely to be matched by existing grinder manufacturers.







Here's an "equivalent" for instance.

https://www.wholelattelove.com/ceado-e37z-hero-coffee-grinder

Breville though - pass

John

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## ashcroc

Emmissions testing on TVs? Now I've heard everything!

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## DavecUK

John, there are some people who add value, make things happen, they create. Other don't do these things.....but like to comment from comfort of the sidelines....such is the way of the world. It used to puzzle me when I was younger, but I simply try not to let it concern me as I get older. At the end of the day there are over 800 people very happy with their grinders and another 250 or so soon to be very happy. They don't care about threads like this, or threads about how great it is, or laser particle analysis, flat vs conical. They are just happilly using their grinder as it slowly becomes invisible to them, gradually forgetting all the hassles they had with their previous grinders. by now they probably accept for granted great shot after great shot from the naked without all the problems.

When people are happy you don't hear a lot...in fact the people making the most noise nowadays don't even seem to have a Niche grinder (check out the German forum). So John, flow with it in the knowledge that the majority of owners arn't reading this thread and the potential purchasers don't care.


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## filthynines

Dave - Your ad hominem stuff at the start really is beneath you. Couldn't let sleeping dogs lie?


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## jimbojohn55

love the engineering of the E37Z but for 5K !! and it does remind me of something


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## L&R

E37Z The very nice grinder I would not buy(price).


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## DavecUK

jimbojohn55 said:


> love the engineering of the E37Z but for 5K !! and it does remind me of something


I particularly like the large box beside it.

Funnily enough I expect an eyepiece to be attached and the universe observed.... it has a sort of reverse schmidt cassegrain thing going on. Perhaps the large box drives an equatorial mount...W Herschel would be pleased.


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## jimbojohn55

and if you looked in the eye piece of the older version you get to meet Herschel in person


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## DavecUK

jimbojohn55 said:


> and if you looked in the eye piece of the older version you get to meet Herschel in person


Or that guy Meade


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## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> John, there are some people who add value, make things happen, they create. Other don't do these things.....but like to comment from comfort of the sidelines....such is the way of the world. It used to puzzle me when I was younger, but I simply try not to let it concern me as I get older. At the end of the day there are over 800 people very happy with their grinders and another 250 or so soon to be very happy. They don't care about threads like this, or threads about how great it is, or laser particle analysis, flat vs conical. They are just happilly using their grinder as it slowly becomes invisible to them, gradually forgetting all the hassles they had with their previous grinders. by now they probably accept for granted great shot after great shot from the naked without all the problems.
> 
> When people are happy you don't hear a lot...in fact the people making the most noise nowadays don't even seem to have a Niche grinder (check out the German forum). So John, flow with it in the knowledge that the majority of owners arn't reading this thread and the potential purchasers don't care.


I'm much the same but..... If I see some one from some specific field mentioning things about another which they are highly unlikely to know anything about I just feel it *may *be worth trying to get them to think about it a bit.







On that score when I mentioned liabilities I should gave put it in bunny rabbits so that they would wonder why but then some wouldn't.

Actually I feel rather strongly that the other thread that has cropped up on this forum has no place on it. Also that if some one buys via crowd funding and they aren't aware of the implications - tough.

John

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