# Should I buy a DTP



## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Hi, I've owned a Gaggia Classic (old type) and a Mazzer Jolly for 2 years now and have been struggling to get a consistent brew so much so that I've now reverted to my Moka pot.

I've used the process as laid out in this forum; using known good fresh beans, weighing them out, dosing PF with 17g and then using a wire to evenly distribute before tamping with a reasonable pressure. Gaggia been warming up for at least 20 mins (this is another pain as it takes away the spontaneous desire for a coffee) making sure the PF is flushed thro' with hot water, using filtered or bottled water. Finally timing and weighing the pull. Varying the grind to get an adequate dwell time of around 35secs.

The results from day to day are always very inconsistent, one day excellent the next using the same process and grind, awful!

We also like milky drinks in the morning and the Gaggia takes ages to do 2 x double shots and for using when we have dinner guests.

Should I sell it and get a DTP?

Richard


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

RichD1 said:


> Should I sell it and get a DTP?
> 
> Richard


I would say so. I'm thrilled with mine. It warms up very quickly and switches from espresso to steam very quickly too. Steam pressure is ample for 2 flat whites.

Inconsistency in technique is always going to be a problem, this machine can't really help you with that. Sometimes its just good to get something new and different to change things up.

Lakeland offer the machine with a 3 year warranty and will price match the lowest price online! Big recommendation for the DTP and for Lakeland.

Happy to answer any specific questions you might have, as will all the other happy DTP owners on the forum.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

If you're in the market for a new machine then I can give a thumbs-up for the DTP. It seemed like a big purchase at the time (it's all relative!) but it's given me many cups of enjoyment. Also many cups of frustration; but mainly enjoyment.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

We use 400ml glass mugs, usa 13 fl oz. Milk isn't my department as I mostly drink long blacks with a bit of milk. My son does at times and makes 2, one for my wife. We use a Barista Express. Not done that much milk myself but I'd put it down to under a minute from watching him do it. Main problem was that Sage's jug was too small so had to buy a larger one. There is a delay switching from brew to steam and back again. I timed it once and recollect under 30sec. I don't worry about the drop of water that comes out initially on steam as I reckon it doesn't make jot of difference. Maybe due to quantity for the mugs and not being into latte art. In fact I tend to overheat it on purpose for that sort of thing. I think most people steam first before making a brew.

The BE has a proper hot water supply. If switched to hot water and left like that for too long after the water flow has stopped there is also a delay going back to brew. Shorter than changes from steam.

I just timed the machines heat up time. 35secs. That's 3 1/2 hrs after it was last used. Seems to be much the same however long it's been off but probably shorter if it's only been off for say 1/2hr.

I manage to get consistent results with the BE grinder and the single basket. That needs tweaks to the grind timer now and again done before there is any noticeable change in taste. Also consistent tamping. I've found straining a touch helps to keep that constant. There is a reasonably priced calibrated tamper available on Amazon that can even be adjusted - E61 size as usual though so needs machining down to size.

It is possible to make several drinks on the trot without preheating the portafilter but the taste will drift so I always flush first into the portafilter with an empty basket. In fact I use one of the pressurised baskets for that as it really does get it all hot. I use a double shot. The BE has timed shots. Single probably ok too but flushing helps keep the shower screen and what's behind it clean.

I have 2 ways of deciding when to tweak the timer. Ones ok if the basket is holding as much as it really can leaving room for the grinds to expand. When I look at the puck I expect to see signs of the shower screen and the hex socket in the screw that holds it in place. No signs of socket - increase grind time a touch. Socket too clear - reduce grind time. Even the depth of beans in the hopper makes a difference. Usually after cleaning lots of tweaking is needed for a while. It depends on the bean. Oily types are the worst in that area.

The other way is keeping a close eye on the brew pressure gauge for when the basket isn't filled to it's real max. Not so good but can be done. Pressure drops - increase the amount etc. The DTP doesn't have one.

It's probably a very good idea to descale thermoblock machines more often than needed also change the filter. Filters aren't expensive and descaling is easy. It seems to be on all Sage machines - not the case on many others. I've no experience of Gaggia. One DTP user on here uses their kettle as an indicator. I assume they keep that descaled and when they see some in that also descale the DTP. I see this area as being more than offset by the heat up times. After buying the BE I looked around for a machine that had 2 thermoblocks. One for brew and another for steam/hot water. Only one I know of and going on their grinder I wouldn't buy it. Power consumption might make a machine that uses 2 difficult maybe that's why their aren't any.

I have one major problem with their machines - filter basket sizes. It's something that they really should do something about. There may be a solution via using La Spaziale basket but both those and the machines need modifying to fit them. They have gone their own way on basket sized - circa 9 and 18g which makes sense really but there is nothing in between. A commercial machine manufacturer tells me they sell 7,12,14 and 21. They also do a 6 but no one buys them. If I lived in Italy I'd find 6g on ebay for several machines. I've seen comments that the 7 will hold 9g but it's too much on any bean I have tried. More like 8 tops usually a touch less.

Should you switch from your Gaggia to a DTP - well really that's up to you. I'd guess you need to sort out grinding and basket filling on either machine and maybe also find the right bean. No idea what basket sizes Gaggia make. If more sizes you might find that getting the right bean for a DTP is more difficult. On the other hand it will give you better brew water temperature consistency. I also have a Piccino bought cheaply to play around with more than use. One person on here doesn't like the temperature drop off while running a shot. You may have read about temperature surfing to get consistent behaviour when shots are run. What I've found in practice is that the usual steps I take to use a machine provide stable conditions anyway so taste doesn't change between shots. What it wont do for me so far though is produce exactly the same taste as the BE does. There is nothing wrong with the taste and the change is just down to different brew methods. Piccino infusion - water hotter initially, BE built in via a lower pressure period when a shot is run.

John

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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Not too bothered about the steaming side as I'm not into Latte art. Just pop a jug into microwave for a minute or so and then use a milk frother.

It's really what will provide more consistency and a greater number of shots at a moments notice.

Is the PF size the main issue? What size is the DTP boiler? Does it have an electrically heated group head or is that just the expensive ones? Apart from the grinder is there any other difference between the DTP and BE? Can you change temperatures on the Sage units? This was an issue in a couple of reviews I read.

Richard


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I manage very unhappily with the basket sizes that are available/ I've bought beans that wont brew sensibly for me. Usually the problem is single too small double too big. I don't like messy sludgy pucks especially if making several several which limits how under filled the double can be. There are other factors as well.

There aren't any boilers at all in the BE or the DTP. They use a thermoblock or call it what you will. It's essentially a block of metal with a tube carrying water for brew, steam or hot water through it. The temperature of the block is controlled via PID or maybe the the water is. Doesn't matter which really as they will have accounted for that during design. The PID function will be for the machine - not the same a buying a commercial PID controller used for all sorts of things and grafting it into a machine without it.

Differences between the BE and the DTP? As far as I know there are extras on the BE. 3 way valve, the shot time can be set which I believe also alters the infusion time and the temperature can be changed by 2 degrees either side of the standard one. You best download the manuals from the Sage site.

One of the reasons we started looking at espresso machines was the microwave and French frother for milk. Each to their own but the espresso machine might take a bit longer than 900w of microwaves but there will be a right mess if it gets that for too long. We got fed up with n secs, feel it and then more etc.

I flush the portafilter on my dual boiler Piccino. It heats the boilers up in under 3min, takes longer to heat up the group head and then even longer to get the portafilter up to temperature as well so I flush as soon as that will complete the heating up. I'd have thought most people would do the same on any boiler machine. It's needed on the DTP and BE as there's no boiler to heat it up. The only thing that can is brew water. They add a teflon moulding to the base of the portafilter. That helps stop it from taking heat away but it's still better to flush.

I've not seen a bad review on them. Just one comment - thermoblock machines and descaling on a coffee crew review. What I do is smile when I descale too often and remember I can turn the machine on and make a drink very very quickly. I can use the grinder while it's warming up the thermoblock anyway but don't due to preheating. The BE grinder isn't brilliant as it's stepped and can probably be bettered anyway with something with bigger burrs etc. It does it's job though. I went for it because I thought we would ideally need 2 grinders one set for what ever bean we are currently using and the other for trying beans out. It takes time to get the settings right so fiddling about for a few beans to try them isn't a good idea really.. So bought a refurbished Sage Smart Grinder Pro. Same as the one in the BE really but more steps or has it? Not really bottomed that out. The SGP is made for all methods. The BE only has to do espresso so needn't cover the same range. I don't think they have taken advantage of that though. I haven't checked the burr settings on the BE but have on the SGP. Doing the BE might clear that up next time I change beans.

The other aspect of the BE grinder is the tint twitches of the timer knob needed to maintain the 9.3g of my favourite bean. It gets easier with practice.







I'd probably be happier if it was more than 9.3g as well. For one I could use a slightly lighter less oily roast of this bean.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I manage very unhappily with the basket sizes that are available/ I've bought beans that wont brew sensibly for me. Usually the problem is single too small double too big. I don't like messy sludgy pucks especially if making several several which limits how under filled the double can be. There are other factors as well.
> 
> There aren't any boilers at all in the BE or the DTP. They use a thermoblock or call it what you will. It's essentially a block of metal with a tube carrying water for brew, steam or hot water through it. The temperature of the block is controlled via PID or maybe the the water is. Doesn't matter which really as they will have accounted for that during design. The PID function will be for the machine - not the same a buying a commercial PID controller used for all sorts of things and grafting it into a machine without it.
> 
> ...


Hi Ajohn

What are you dosing as a double? I thought the DTP was an 18g dose.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Very happy with my DTP. I've also had a classic side by side and they are just way easier to use.

Autofill, fixed temp and fast warm up means if you just want quick and simple then it does just that.

Teamed up with your SJ also will give great results. That's my current combo and I wouldn't have it any other way


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

joey24dirt said:


> Teamed up with your SJ also will give great results. That's my current combo and I wouldn't have it any other way


Get an EK


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

fatboyslim said:


> Get an EK


Even better!!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Hi Ajohn
> 
> What are you dosing as a double? I thought the DTP was an 18g dose.


I don't use the double much at all for my own drinks and have always used the single for more than one drink. I've only used the double when the single wont hold sufficient coffee. That's bean a problem on several beans. Fill the double sufficiently to get a reasonable puck and it's too strong. The worst one was a strong decaf that needed a fine grind. Get the quantity right in the double for taste and the result in the basket is more of watery sludge than anything else. Doing that sort of thing has an effect on all aspects of the extraction including taste anyway.

Maybe you have questioned this as I may have mentioned 9.3g - that's what the single is best at with one type of bean. With care and oily beans that can produce a decent long black drink in a 12oz/400ml mug. Given the choice I would probably use a bit more and even more on a lighter roast that was less oily - 18g though - no.

Might be worth mentioning that so far for the same amount of coffee my BE can extract more than the Piccino can.








From the above people might think I like weak coffee - afraid I don't.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Have you tried pulling a double and only having half of it in your drink? Does it taste better or worse than a single?

I can't use single baskets on any machine ive had.

Most coffeeshops will pull a double shot and discard the other half of the shot for a single.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I don't use the double much at all for my own drinks and have always used the single for more than one drink. I've only used the double when the single wont hold sufficient coffee. That's bean a problem on several beans. Fill the double sufficiently to get a reasonable puck and it's too strong. The worst one was a strong decaf that needed a fine grind. Get the quantity right in the double for taste and the result in the basket is more of watery sludge than anything else. Doing that sort of thing has an effect on all aspects of the extraction including taste anyway.
> 
> Maybe you have questioned this as I may have mentioned 9.3g - that's what the single is best at with one type of bean. With care and oily beans that can produce a decent long black drink in a 12oz/400ml mug. Given the choice I would probably use a bit more and even more on a lighter roast that was less oily - 18g though - no.
> 
> ...


Most people would have trouble making a 400ml drink from 18g, let alone 9.3g. If you can make what you like, then great, but it's not reflective of usual practice. 18g is a pretty common dose for doubles.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Most people would have trouble making a 400ml drink from 18g, let alone 9.3g. If you can make what you like, then great, but it's not reflective of usual practice. 18g is a pretty common dose for doubles.


That's my take on it too, but if everyone thought the same it would be a dull place.

What beans are you using? What grinder are you pairing with?

When your pulling a 9.3g shot what are you extracting 20g?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Monsoon Malabar full dark roast which will be shiny and oily if that's done correctly. A slightly lighter roast wont be oily so easier on the grinder but looses strength. I grind it with the grinder on the BE.

I work on extraction via taste more than anything else but conventionally speak it would be circa 1:2. However on a BE I get a longer infusion period if I use the double button with it's default setting. Next question was to terminate that or allow it to run for the full duration. I found little or no difference in taste possibly better if left to run fully so that's what I do. Brew pressure after the infusion is just about at the espresso limit shown on a BE's gauge. That does make a difference to taste, weaker if it doesn't get there.

I've been using Jampit for a bit. Same sort of volume but it looks like it's a heavier bean. Then it's monsoon again but this time a mix of oily and not oily. Not sure what that will do or if it's a crap roast from the supplier. They might have done it because of a note I added - oily but minimum burnt off. I tried the set roast that the people who supply Jampit offer for Monsooned - don't rate it all even though they say it's specifically for the bean. The hopper needs cleaning more often than the grinder when the beans are oily. Sage's hoppers slope at the bottom isn't steep enough so the beans stick when there aren't many in it. Say 10 shots or more left so have to push them down to make sure they reach the burrs.

The grinder timer needs around a 1/4 of a turn from clean to settled in and still need tweaks every now and again to keep the output right. It doesn''t have to drift far before I can taste water. I drink it close to black but usually more milk than I would put in a Starbucks americano.

On this lot of beans I am going to probably waste some by using less at a finer grind to see if I can get infusion pressure and a lower peak pressure. Probably wasting my time. A better answer to the rather high one I use at the moment would be a bit bigger basket but not the double. I did try that fully loaded. Didn't work out.








Strong coffee. I'm not an espresso drinker. Starbucks americano sums me up. Splash of milk - taste it and then add a bit more, another splash. Many people add a lot more.

To be honest having played around a lot with settings my conclusion is that people should concentrate on taste and consistency not specific ratios and times. I suspect any one with a machine with timed shots will find that the output varies what ever they do but within limits that wont change the taste. The biggest pain really is grind variations and adjusting that on the fly. Weighing beans in doesn't work for me when things are this close to the limit 'cause now and again more comes out. Grinds can't expand fully so if too much there will be less taste.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I have a silly theory about where the usual filter basket sizes come from. (Shot size + 1g)x Shots except trebles, maybe the extract better. 6oz drink 7g, 12oz 14g, treble 21g. 12g probably crops up for awkward people like me. Not that I am really. The 7g I have used may hold 8g plus a bit - still less than the Sage single can hold. They suggest that is 8-10g and the double 15-18g. I don't think either will really hold their max but maybe that depends on the bean. They probably did this to help stronger/larger shots for bigger mugs and milk based. It's too big a jump for what I drink so limits the beans I can use. There are also 6g baskets about in other makes - for espresso drinkers? Looking around for those proved difficult. I did find some listed in the USA and in the land of the espresso - Italy. Espresso with beans I tend to like doesn't interest me really, If the machines can be adapted to La Spaz and have the same fill capacity. IMS offer 6g and 3 perforation patterns to 7g. Also the competition baskets suddenly hold the same as the ordinary basket they are based on. The only reason I can think of for varying the hole pattern is espresso drinkers who I feel are a rather rare bread. Or maybe it's for slight taste variations based on bean types for all drinks.

One good thing. If Sage had done a typical 7g basket I'd probably throw the machine away but may if needed been able to tone the 14 that might have come with it by adding more milk but that's something else that alters taste in other ways so still wouldn't be happy.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I have a silly theory about where the usual filter basket sizes come from. (Shot size + 1g)x Shots except trebles, maybe the extract better. 6oz drink 7g, 12oz 14g, treble 21g. 12g probably crops up for awkward people like me. Not that I am really. The 7g I have used may hold 8g plus a bit - still less than the Sage single can hold. They suggest that is 8-10g and the double 15-18g. I don't think either will really hold their max but maybe that depends on the bean. They probably did this to help stronger/larger shots for bigger mugs and milk based.
> 
> John
> 
> -


If you're talking ratios for black coffee, in the US it used to be 10g dose for 5.3oz (probably stronger in speciality circles nowadays). Europe might be around 7g for 100ml/14g:200ml.

Italian espresso doses were up to 8g for a single according to Illy, up to 7.5g according to INEI, very commonly 9-10g nowadays. So the Sage dosing doesn't look to be unusual.

If you think that a 12g dose will suit your drink size, make the drink to the same ratios, but scale down for a 10g dose, or up for a 15g dose. For espresso we're talking the difference of a couple of sips, for long coffee a difference of a couple of mouthfuls.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I have to confess to being more than slightly confused about ajohn's posts, as thorough as they are. I don't understand how one bean can cause trouble compared to another as long as they're weighing in the same. [edit: In the circumstances described, dialling-in excepted.]

OP - Please bear in mind that ajohn is talking about the Barista Express. It has the same technology for the espresso extraction itself, but the problems that ajohn refers to sound to me as though they are easily resolved through use of the DTP plus a decent, separate grinder.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The only answer I can make to the last 2 posts is that bean strength varies between types so for the same strength out things need to change. They need different volume/weights of grinds also different grinder settings. Same strength doesn't mean that any tasting notes on the bean are then invalid - not within reason anyway.

Simply put all dark roast strong beans are not equal. As it happens I can brew a stronger Jampit in the single than I can get with monsooned using a coarser grind and oddly a bit of a weight increase still just about filling the space that's available for expansion when it brews. On that one I suspect I could do the same thing with finer grind and a smaller basket. Totally unsure but at some point I will probably get some more and try it on my other machine.

The other point of course which is pretty obvious is just why do other makers produce these other sizes. LOL Must be for fun. Wish it was.

The grinder aspect is in hand in an odd sort of way but I can't use the massive thing at the moment. It most definitely wont solve the basket size problem anyway. Just allow somewhat better tuning and maybe a different yield. Where to stop in that area? It seems things have moved on. What people want is 83mm burrs and a grinder that spits out 7g / sec and costs thousand. One thing that is good about Sage grinders - or has been for me is that the output can be amazingly consistent. It just needs rather small tweaks to the grind timer now and again. It is possible to do worse. People say that they are underpowered - well yes they are compared with 60 odd mm diameter flat burrs that need more torque and very probably higher speed than the Sage does.







Just hope it doesn't choke when I get round to drinking the sort of espresso I like - it would be a light bright bean.

Some one else mentioned that the taste profile changes as burr size goes up. I wonder where people should stop in that direction but yes the Sage uses small burrs. They could presumably produce one with bigger burrs and a 1/2hp+ motor. That is going to be a pretty big beast just due to the motor size. It would also cost more.








I have a SGP grinder anyway. Does it offer a huge advantage. Afraid I don't think it really does over the BE. Baskets would. Personally I think they only need one in the middle of the 2 they do. I'd still suggest buying these machines to people anyway. They are very good in all other respects. My ideal Sage if they did it would be a thermoblock version with the same tuning facilities as the dual boiler has and yes maybe no grinder. I do need 2 anyway so would probably prefer with. Oh and preferably and E61 plastic group head. Big chunks of metal just increase heat up time.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> The only answer I can make to the last 2 posts is that bean strength varies between types so for the same strength out things need to change. They need different volume/weights of grinds also different grinder settings. Same strength doesn't mean that any tasting notes on the bean are then invalid - not within reason anyway.


Intensity of flavour, due to bean and/or roast, changes. But you make the strength (concentration) of the beverage - if you pull the shot longer it gets weaker, pull it shorter it gets stronger, adjust grind to keep the flavour balanced. Darker roasts & bolder beans will be bolder at the same strength as more delicate beans.

So, sure, you could quite rightly say that "strength" perception (intensity) is just as important as technical definition (concentration), but the amount of coffee you pull out of each bean can often be pretty much the same, for the same dose, even if the beverage size changes. If the cup is too intense pull more from the shot. Not intense enough? Pull it shorter. Grind adjustments normalise flavour balance.

How many entry level, single group, machines are delivered with more than 2 different sized, non-pressurised baskets?


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

A lot of interesting discussion, thanks.

So for the price circa £300 now, then the DTP sounds a good deal. I don't want to change the SJ, so ignoring the grinder section does the BE offer anything more in the brewing section than the DTP?

Richard


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

RichD1 said:


> A lot of interesting discussion, thanks.
> 
> So for the price circa £300 now, then the DTP sounds a good deal. I don't want to change the SJ, so ignoring the grinder section does the BE offer anything more in the brewing section than the DTP?
> 
> Richard


Bigger water tank?


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Just reading some more reviews and the brew temperature or lack of it comes up regularly. Do you think this is down to how these people are measuring it? Do any of you DTP or BE owners find the brew temperature too low or a problem? Can it be adjusted?

Just to clarify; a thermoblock is similar to a combi boiler? Where the water passes through a coil of pipe which has heating elements around them. Does this mean it can provide almost continuous hot water and therefore make two double shots in reasonable quick succession?

What would you consider is a reasonable warm-up period before ready for brewing?

Richard

Richard


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

In another thread I had timed myself from start to finish with the DTP ( with two kids running about )

This was from cold with a single flush before brewing


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

I've never found a problem with the temperature on the DTP. I usually run some water through the grouphead (with the empty portafilter in) and into a cup, to heat both the portafilter and cup before making a coffee. I've made more than one double shot in quick succession and had no problem either. The machine is usually ready to go within a couple of minutes plus however long it takes to run some water through the empty portafilter....


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Read one review saying that the BE does more than just espresso whereas the DTP is just for espresso! They didn't elaborate on this so what if anything are they trying to say.

Richard


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I think the BE might have a dedicated hot water outlet whereas the DTP can still give you hot water but it's through the steam wand.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Do you have a Lakeland near to you? Could be worth seeing them in the flesh to help aid the decision.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

RichD1 said:


> Read one review saying that the BE does more than just espresso whereas the DTP is just for espresso! They didn't elaborate on this so what if anything are they trying to say.
> 
> Richard


It has a milk frothing arm so I would say this isnt true.


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Virtually decided that it must be a DTP, but just to confirm the differences the BE has apart from grinder section are; it has a 2 litre tank rather than a 1.8 litre, it has a 3 way valve, adjustable temperature but only marginally, separate hot water outlet, programmable, and a pressure gauge. None of these are must have deal breakers are they?

Has anyone done any mods to their DTP?

Any major issues with faults or failures? Are Sage customer support responsive?

Cheapest price at the moment is http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES810BSS at £299. I think all sellers are only offering the standard 2 year Sage guarantee.

Richard


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

You can get cheaper refurbished ones with a one year warranty. You can essentially gamble and get two DTPs for a price of one brand new.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I've added a 3-way valve arrangement to mine and some leds that light up the brewing area. I'm sure I've done something else but can't think haha


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

PPapa said:


> You can get cheaper refurbished ones with a one year warranty. You can essentially gamble and get two DTPs for a price of one brand new.


Had looked into this but as they are selling at £210 on eBay I didn't think it was low enough compared to eCookshop at £299 which includes the 2 year warranty.

So just to confirm capability to multiple brews, it will make 2 x double espresso in quick succession? Will it continue to make fairly quick repeats (no steaming) until water runs out.

Richard


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

RichD1 said:


> Had looked into this but as they are selling at £210 on eBay I didn't think it was low enough compared to eCookshop at £299 which includes the 2 year warranty.
> 
> So just to confirm capability to multiple brews, it will make 2 x double espresso in quick succession? Will it continue to make fairly quick repeats (no steaming) until water runs out.
> 
> Richard


It's certainly luck dependent. I got mine for around £125.

No problems with successive drinks. I have done over 5 shots today as I put new beans into the hopper and choked the machine too many times. Made 2 drinks once dialled in and the machine didn't complain.

Had to empty the tray though as I forgot to yesterday. The drip tray needs to be emptied pretty much daily as otherwise you risk overfilling it.

The pump has an auto shut off at 60s mark, but the steam has never stopped for me.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

It will definitely manage two doubles in quick succession.


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## Mr Kirk (Oct 5, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> I've added a 3-way valve arrangement to mine and some leds that light up the brewing area. I'm sure I've done something else but can't think haha


I was thinking about this again the other day.

With the BE and DTP being similar, would it be worth opening up a BE to see if the three way valve can be adapted for a DTP?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Mr Kirk said:


> I was thinking about this again the other day.
> 
> With the BE and DTP being similar, would it be worth opening up a BE to see if the three way valve can be adapted for a DTP?


Definitely worth having a look. It's just the control side of things that might be difficult to figure out


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

What about the water filters? Do you forget about it and just use bottled water or do you replace? How much are they to replace? Always used either bottled water or from our Brita jug. Thinking about get an under sink filter such as the BWT, Pozzani types.

Richard


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

I always use Waitrose's Stretton Hills or Volvic water. I believe there are generic non-Sage-branded water filters available, which are significantly cheaper than the Sage ones, if you want to go that route.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Beth71 said:


> I always use Waitrose's Stretton Hills or Volvic water. I believe there are generic non-Sage-branded water filters available, which are significantly cheaper than the Sage ones, if you want to go that route.


These are available on amazon and are what I use, with plain old tap


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## Mr Kirk (Oct 5, 2017)

I have the amazon filters. Changed every two months. It's only 3 mo the old lol.

And Britta filtered water. Plan on descaling in the new year.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

RichD1 said:


> Had looked into this but as they are selling at £210 on eBay I didn't think it was low enough compared to eCookshop at £299 which includes the 2 year warranty.
> 
> So just to confirm capability to multiple brews, it will make 2 x double espresso in quick succession? Will it continue to make fairly quick repeats (no steaming) until water runs out.
> 
> Richard


The BE will so assume that the DTP will too. No reason why it shouldn't. I see a note in the DTP instructions that if the machine is run for 30min let it cool for 5min. 30min is a lot of coffee.

The BE uses a more powerful thermoblock than the DTP. Probably for hot water at reasonable rates - I have a slight beef with that on the BE. The hot water flow has a fixed time limit on it - leaves the level a bit low for my needs. I drink long blacks with a bit of milk in 400ml mugs. Not much but need to add a bit more after the timer has turned it off. I wouldn't fancy using a steam wand shooting out water to make water based drinks - that's one reason why I went for the BE. The BE could have more steam power but might not. We have made two milk based drinks at the same time and the only problem steaming 600 odd ml of milk was the size of the Sage milk jug. We had to buy a bigger one. The other problem may be trying to produce 2 shots for these at the same time. The double basket may not hold enough coffee to make the shots strong enough. Highly likely really for drinks of our size. At the time this didn't matter as the milk based drinker here, both of them, had assumptions about what strong ones would taste like thanks to Starbucks etc. They both now drink the same as me with a bit more milk.It was just a case of finding a nice smooth bean.

The BE does times shots that can be programmed in or it can be run manually. People who use machines that don't have timed shots do all sorts, time them manually or even weigh shots into the mug or cup they are using on scales. Timed shots generally wont always produce exactly the same weight/volume shot. It will vary a bit. Providing tamping is consistent the main culprit is variations in in the grinder output. Even the level of beans in the hopper can change the output. So if this happens even weighing the shot wont help really if a change is sufficient to alter the taste. Some people weigh the grounds or as a second best weigh the beans into the hopper.







I look at the dry puck after a shot has been pulled and tweak the grinder timer based on what I see or keep a close eye on the behaviour of the pressure gauge on the BE as a shot is pulled, a poor 2nd really but can be of use.

I also sometimes suspect there is something odd going on with the BE's timed shots. I'd need to get a stop watch out to check so shouldn't even mention it really. It might be trying to help if things are a bit out.

The BE has one problem - the manual and the detail in it about using the pressure gauge. It sort of implies that the needle must always go to 12 o'clock and doesn't mention that it might also be a good idea to see some pressure during the infusion stage. This can really mess people up when they are tuning a shot and result in weak shots. If infusion shows pressure the needle is likely to go past 12 o'clok. Don't worry about it, concentrate on taste. I'd also be inclined to say the same about ratio's but wont. Blank flushing through an empty pressurised filter basket will show what sort of needle behaviour people may ideally want but more pressure at the high stage may be unavoidable for a decent drink.

Baskets - just have to put up with the problems they cause some how. I'd still buy a BE again but do hope that they do something about this area at some point. Modified La Spaz baskets might offer a fix but not a simple one.

Descaling - download the manuals on the machine from their site and read them. It's not an onerous operation. They also mention cleaning the shower filter and back flushing. Something all machines need. The BE has a light to indicate when the machine should be back flushed. I think their Dual Boiler also tells people when to descale. Going on dual boiler machines that particular one is amazing for the price compared with very many others.

John

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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

RichD1 said:


> Virtually decided that it must be a DTP
> 
> Any major issues with faults or failures? Are Sage customer support responsive?
> 
> ...


If Lakeland will price match it to £299 from the £340 they're offering it at it seems a no brainer to go see one in the flesh and buy from there if you like it. Lakeland give a 3 year guarantee which covers not just faulty goods but you deciding you're not 100% happy.

http://www.lakeland.co.uk/info/LakelandGuarantee


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## RichD1 (Oct 17, 2016)

Lakeland just reduced DTP price to £249.99!!

Order placed.

Thanks for all the advice guys.

Richard


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## IggyK (May 13, 2017)

Mega yes £249.95 from Lakeland and 3 year warranty bargain!

good beat me too it


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

Great price. Hope you enjoy it. Love mine.


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