# Weber Key



## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

Weber is launching the Key, a 83mm conical grinder. Crowdfunded. 
It is still in development, so I guess it will be a while until it really ships.


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## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Have signed up for this - looks nice, coming June, 25% off via crowdfund is cool

https://keycoffeegrinder.com/

https://weberworkshops.com/products/key-grinder


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## GengisKhan (May 8, 2017)

Love a new weber product. The grinder looks really interesting. What would the shipping be to the UK though?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It appears to be a motorised HG-1 so I would assume dev time wont be long and kickstarter is being used to "kick it off" and get interest and sales. Some other companies have done that.


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## MrBaozi (May 11, 2017)

ajohn said:


> It appears to be a motorised HG-1 so I would assume dev time wont be long and kickstarter is being used to "kick it off" and get interest and sales. Some other companies have done that.


 Most likely a motorised HG-2 rather than HG-1. Seems like a few people are a little upset that Weber announced the KEY barely a few weeks after people had pre-ordered the new HG-2.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MrBaozi Sounds reasonable, sell as many non motorised ones as possible, before releasing the motorised version. Maximises sales and reduces substitution effect.

So at launch with the 25% discount it works out at approx $1500 +20% VAT = 1800+200 shipping and duty?....all in for 2000 dollars..around £1450 Quite reasonable for a Weber product


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## Kimmo (Sep 14, 2020)

MrBaozi said:


> Most likely a motorised HG-2 rather than HG-1. Seems like a few people are a little upset that Weber announced the KEY barely a few weeks after people had pre-ordered the new HG-2.


 One of my friends did that. He isn't that thrilled


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## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

I'm sold. Signed up. Looks amazing and with the early adopter discount (like @DavecUK says above) it's actually good value for a Weber. Wonder how it compares to the Kafatec, it's certainly cheaper and the built-in WDT sounds great. Now all I need is Odyssey to start selling their machine and I'm in coffee heaven without breaking the bank!


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## tohenk2 (Oct 11, 2017)

Enea said:


> Wonder how it compares to the Kafatec, it's certainly cheaper and the built-in WDT sounds great.


 The Key should have a 83mm conical burr, where the Monolith conical is a hybrid: it uses a flat 71mm burr as a pre-breaker and then a Mazzer Robur 71mm Conical burr (186C according to the website).

The taste of the Robur and the Kony in the original Mazzer machines was reportedly not that different - but the Robur could grind bigger volumes (5kg at once, so not important in a home setting). The monolith is a different beast, and I guess the single dosing vs the hopper, 71mm flat pre-breaker and overall build tolerances account for more than the size difference.

Happily Weber has a good track record for quality output with the previous grinders.


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## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

tohenk2 said:


> The Key should have a 83mm conical burr, where the Monolith conical is a hybrid: it uses a flat 71mm burr as a pre-breaker and then a Mazzer Robur 71mm Conical burr (186C according to the website).
> 
> The taste of the Robur and the Kony in the original Mazzer machines was reportedly not that different - but the Robur could grind bigger volumes (5kg at once, so not important in a home setting). The monolith is a different beast, and I guess the single dosing vs the hopper, 71mm flat pre-breaker and overall build tolerances account for more than the size difference.
> 
> Happily Weber has a good track record for quality output with the previous grinders.


 Yes, agree. I think the Kafatec's two step grinding is the better approach, for me the real question will be whether that "extra" is actually worth paying twice as much as the Key (which I think looks better too) or whether the Key's 12mm extra burr width coupled with all the other trickery like variable speed might not make up for some of that difference.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Enea Kafatec did not invent the two stage grinding approach. Been around for years and years. Kafatek seen to dislike any criticism of their product......that must tell you something


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> @Enea Kafatec did not invent the two stage grinding approach. Been around for years and years. Kafatek seen to dislike any criticism of their product......that must tell you something


 @dfk41 That Denis is a prima donna with access to CNC machines?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @Enea Kafatec did not invent the two stage grinding approach. Been around for years and years. Kafatek seen to dislike any criticism of their product......that must tell you something


 I think for small producers of products that live or die by the perception of quality, it's a fairly common attitude. When I "constructively" criticise manufacturers products (to their faces) they often don't like it, some make the changes, others excommunicate me. it's a bit like what happens in that movie, John Wick. 🤣


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

I am much less online with my coffee these past years.

Thanks to @tohenk2 for posting this.

The reputation of quality that weber have for their products is enough to have me half interested.

The question of whether its worth a gamble on pre order to see if it is better than my Niche is something ill stew on. It is a fair bit of Money in play.

Pre ordering the earliest Niche was maybe the best move I have done in coffee equipment buying.

Ill be keeping an eye on this.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Dallah half right!


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## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

steveholt said:


> I am much less online with my coffee these past years.
> 
> Thanks to @tohenk2 for posting this.
> 
> ...


 I -sadly- missed that train, but am quite happy to jump on this one!


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## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I think for small producers of products that live or die by the perception of quality, it's a fairly common attitude. When I "constructively" criticise manufacturers products (to their faces) they often don't like it, some make the changes, others excommunicate me. it's a bit like what happens in that movie, John Wick. 🤣


 As long as no one touches the dog 😂


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I know that the ideal number of grinders is n+1, where n=the grinders you have, but having just got an Ultra which takes it to a baker's dozen, I think I'll sit this one out 😌


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## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

If only were flat burrs... 😅

I mean, I know it can be quite different, and we know Weber is using HG-2 as baseline, but I'm missing a "mid" range (~ 1000€) flat burr SD (Niche Zero Flat?). I know Solo (G-iota) with ssp could compete probably well enough, but overall quality seems below Niche and for sure much below Weber.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

I'm still on the crowd funding, pre order fence for this.

It seems to be... Most of the cost of a lagom p64 for a kind of souped up niche, albeit from a coffee nerd established brand/supplier.

With adjustable rpm and large conical burrs the key is sorf of a small form factor, native SD low rpm conical as per DaveCs ceado e92 of yore. Which was replaced by the niche...

Hmnm


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@steveholt I think it will appeal to some. Your thoughts on pricing might be wrong it's normally 2000 USD. Kickstarter is a 500 USD discount, but you still have VAT and import to add. Plus shipping.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

@DaveC

Yeah, I was a bit loose with pricing, but yeah at kickstarter price it's in the same region as the lagom landed locally, at proposed rrp it is more than the lagom and less than any boutique large conicals I know of.

Have you gone back to your ceado at all for any reason since the niche moved to your bench?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

steveholt said:


> @DaveC
> 
> Yeah, I was a bit loose with pricing, but yeah at kickstarter price it's in the same region as the lagom landed locally, at proposed rrp it is more than the lagom and less than any boutique large conicals I know of.
> 
> Have you gone back to your ceado at all for any reason since the niche moved to your bench?


 I haven't, the 71mm ceado conical was slightly better grind quality than the Niche, it was only slightly better because the 63mm Kony burr from Mazzer is such a good Burr! It was large (not large for a big conical really, Ceados are fairly compact) and the workflow of the Niche is so superior. Changing grind on the E92 from espresso to filter is a PITA, so you don't bother. It can be modded for very low retention, but it's long possibly multiple runs and tappy tappy on a impulse thing I made.

Now a big conical in the Niche (even bigger than the 63mm kony burr)...that would be a thing wouldn't it...

The Ceado still sits in my collection gathering dust, hardly used, and I paid a lot for it brand new. Especially as I often have some other grinders on test.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

That's quite some endorsement for the NICHE!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@GrahamSPhillips I could just be someone who cannot tell the difference (or much difference). I wanted the Ceado to be night and day better because I paid a lot of money for it...If I ever sell the Ceado, I will of course not state this and if called out point to this post saying it was my fault not being able to taste the difference, and I'm sure others would taste a huge difference.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUK I have had a couple of E92's and I was underwhelmed when single dosing. When running with a full hopper, tasted a little better but the retention was awful. The main trouble is, Niche have set a very high bar!


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Well it's all your fault @DavecUK.. I read your Niche review and placed my order the next day..


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I haven't, the 71mm ceado conical was slightly better grind quality than the Niche, it was only slightly better because the 63mm Kony burr from Mazzer is such a good Burr! It was large (not large for a big conical really, Ceados are fairly compact) and the workflow of the Niche is so superior. Changing grind on the E92 from espresso to filter is a PITA, so you don't bother. It can be modded for very low retention, but it's long possibly multiple runs and tappy tappy on a impulse thing I made.
> 
> Now a big conical in the Niche (even bigger than the 63mm kony burr)...that would be a thing wouldn't it...
> 
> The Ceado still sits in my collection gathering dust, hardly used, and I paid a lot for it brand new. Especially as I often have some other grinders on test.


 That makes sense. I would not go back from the niche type work flow as a home espresso and filter drinker.

And based on quality, I trust the niche team and would be early in line for any future projects. The Niche zero hit a quality and customer needs to price sweetspot that is quite remarkable really.

As I am non UK based, niche is now subjected to the vat and duty issues that the other overseas boutique high end grinders are.

Considering your measured comparison of burrset size to cup quality between the E92 and the niche, and with the weber not being to my eyes a super tightly aligned design, the key is likely to be a pretty, but also likely marginal in Cup quality (as most things are above a certain level) upgrade on the niche.

Lovely photos on their website though.

Thanks for your thoughts davec


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

love how a thread about a weber grinder has derailed into to a niche love fest lol

i would assume the weber to be a very high quality, i believe its £1400 landed

depends what you want though, conical or flat, and what you tend to drink


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

I quite like the design but I don't know if I would pay that much for it. It does offer plenty of additional features vs the Niche - then of course we could argue for hours on which ones matters and which don't, but I don't think it's a like-for-like comparison. Arguably, I would compare it to a Lagom, both beautifully designed, optimised workflow, adjustable RPM..


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> would assume the weber to be a very high quality, i believe its £1400 landed


 think landed price is considerably more than that as it doesn't include shipping and import taxes and VAT


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Roko said:


> I quite like the design but I don't know if I would pay that much for it.


 Weber kit is beautifully designed and put together. Downside is that relatively small sales' figures mean economies of scale production don't apply - hence the high prices.


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Weber kit is beautifully designed and put together. Downside is that relatively small sales' figures mean economies of scale production don't apply - hence the high prices.


 And supposedly this is why they're crowdfunding - allows offering a discount that they would otherwise not be able to?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

friend of mine is on the waiting list

grinder $1500

del $100

import 22%

total £1379.82

so similir to the lagom p64


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Just seen Weber are offering an early bird 25% discount - makes it slightly more palatable.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Think it seems to be the way now, offer slight discount for up front payment/backing

Helps establish a product

I know there are aftermarket motor systems for the hg1 but not cheap


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

$500 dollars to motorise an HG 1 which is what the Key is doesn't seem too bad. Without the 25% discount, the Key starts to look quite pricey and doesn't look to do much more, if anything, the HG 1 does.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Manual grinding on the HG 1 with darker roasts is pretty effortless and strangely satisfying.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Id say it makes the hg2 kinda pointless.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> Id say it makes the hg2 kinda pointless.


 Not so sure about that - even with the discount, the HG 1 is $500 dollars cheaper. The Key is unlikely to offer anything more in the cup the HG 1 doesn't. Once the early bird Key discount has gone, the argument for the HG 1 becomes even stronger.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I drink light roasts exclusively now. I opt for motorised every time.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

HG manual grinders aren't suited for lighter roasts. Unless they are bolted down, they jump around. Then again, I wouldn't want to invest in a big conical grinder if my preferences were exclusively for lighter roasts.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dallah said:


> I drink light roasts exclusively now. I opt for motorised every time.


 I have seen videos of people struggling on the HG1 with what are presumably light roasts. I agree, motorised is the way to go for that type of roast.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Impossible to grind smoothly and consistently on HG manual grinder - and the results in the cup for lighter roasts weren't great. For darker roasts, the HG performs effortlessly and produces a wonderfully layered textured espresso.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Haven't looked on the Weber website to see what motor is used and whether it has the necessary torque to grind lighter roasts without stalling like the unmodded Versalab.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

if you want to use light roasts then most say go big flat anyway haha which is even more money


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> if you want to use light roasts then most say go big flat anyway haha which is even more money


 This was why I moved from an HG 1 to a big flat burr grinder. I could not get anything other that mouth puckeringly sour espresso from the HG with lighter roasts.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> love how a thread about a weber grinder has derailed into to a niche love fest lol
> 
> i would assume the weber to be a very high quality, i believe its £1400 landed
> 
> depends what you want though, conical or flat, and what you tend to drink


 I think the niche is a pretty mainstream reference grinder in the hobby for a lot of forums, kinda like the ex commercial super jolly was years ago.

I think that unlike discussions of the lagom or the g-iota compared to the niche where there is an apples and oranges angle that gets in the way (flat v conical) in the keys case, we are looking conical v conical in our comparison. The niche is very much a valid reference point.

My personal question is anchored in hobbies maths. Having a niche in hand, should I bother with key/lagom etc or get ssp burrs for my 64mm ceado E37.

The rational choice is stick with with what I have and pocket the cash.

Hobbies are often irrational at times.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Thats a hard choice as the lagom is 64mm too, so as such will be the same or near as ssp burrs. The p64 will offer neater single dosing if thats what you need,

But if not £250 vs £1500 is a massive difference, even if you're rslking about 4-10g retention a time is still alot of beans to recoup🤣


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

steveholt said:


> I think the niche is a pretty mainstream reference grinder in the hobby for a lot of forums, kinda like the ex commercial super jolly was years ago.
> 
> I think that unlike discussions of the lagom or the g-iota compared to the niche where there is an apples and oranges angle that gets in the way (flat v conical) in the keys case, we are looking conical v conical in our comparison. The niche is very much a valid reference point.
> 
> ...


 If it was my money and I had a Niche in hand, I would not bother with Key (you just get a bit more of everything..), and I would perhaps try the SSP burrs if you drink lighter roasts. You can always buy them for a few hundred quid, try them, and resell them for nearly as much, maybe you'll lose £75 in the process.

If you can, I think it's always good to spend a little bit to figure things yourself. You might not notice any difference, or you might. And you can call the £75 a 'discovery ticket fee'..


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@steveholt It is funny how not all forums discuss the Niche!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not convinced that the owners of a lot of these so called top end grinders, actually have the ability or tastebuds to discern the difference that they perceive


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

steveholt said:


> Hobbies are often irrational at times.


 Heresy😀


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> @steveholt It is funny how not all forums discuss the Niche!


 well alot do, even the 'new' one has a dedicated niche area like all the other manufactures, as you say its a popular little grinder



dfk41 said:


> I am not convinced that the owners of a lot of these so called top end grinders, actually have the ability or taste buds to discern the difference that they perceive


 general consensus was back to back blind testing with professional tasters couldn't either, problem is as the machines advance so does extraction, look at the decent and the blooming shot it can produce with flow/temp profiling its meaning we can start to extract stuff from beans that could only have been dreampt of in the past.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

steveholt said:


> The rational choice is stick with with what I have and pocket the cash.


 That's what I did! At one time, I kept asking myself the question, and just accepted the Niche is a good grinder, and I'm better off saving the money and, in a few years, buy something different. Saying that, unfortunately I don't have the luxury or the space to have two grinders side by side, nor drink enough coffee to justify it.

But it was alright, everything was alright, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother the Niche. 😂

(1984)


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> Thats a hard choice as the lagom is 64mm too, so as such will be the same or near as ssp burrs. The p64 will offer neater single dosing if thats what you need,
> 
> But if not £250 vs £1500 is a massive difference, even if you're rslking about 4-10g retention a time is still alot of beans to recoup🤣


 On the flat side actaully, is coffeechap still working on his flat grinder?


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> @steveholt It is funny how not all forums discuss the Niche!


 I have only now, after forum diving for a few days, just worked out that this is not a reference to home barista.

It looks like I have missed out on something happening in my intermittent absence.

Hmmmmmmmmmm


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@steveholt You missed nothing....and I think all forums discuss the Niche....me I'm happy to have had a very small part to play in a British success story and I am sure most people into coffee in any serious way has to respect the achievement. Martin not only designed it, but for a while actually built them himself (with his family), before the numbers required larger production capability and the expertise that brings..

All from an idea...a dream if you like and the conviction that he could improve on what already existed for the home user.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @steveholt You missed nothing....and I think all forums discuss the Niche....me I'm happy to have had a very small part to play in a British success story and I am sure most people into coffee in any serious way has to respect the achievement. Martin not only designed it, but for a while actually built them himself (with his family), before the numbers required larger production capability and the expertise that brings..
> 
> All from an idea...a dream if you like and the conviction that he could improve on what already existed for the home user.


 Thanks Dave.

I have one of those home made Niche's on my bench still if the early emails are representative of reality. It is really impressive what Martin brought to pass, and then escalated.

If I had a half idea that there was a Niche plus or Niche flat on the way they would very much be first in line for me.


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## 27852 (Nov 8, 2020)

Preorders opening next week. Who is thinking of taking the plunge?


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## 28362 (Dec 17, 2020)

Yes, I'm on the list. Definitely buying.


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## 29244 (Feb 8, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> I am not convinced that the owners of a lot of these so called top end grinders, actually have the ability or tastebuds to discern the difference that they perceive


 I am sure that's true. But it's also the pleasure of seeing a thing of beauty on my coffee island (EG-1, and yes I agree, beauty is in the eye of the espresso-maker).

For me, it's not only about what's in the cup. If it was I would probably not keep waking up to a temperamental Italian hissing and spitting at me each morning (La Pavoni) 😁


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## 28362 (Dec 17, 2020)

tompoland said:


> I am sure that's true. But it's also the pleasure of seeing a thing of beauty on my coffee island (EG-1, and yes I agree, beauty is in the eye of the espresso-maker).
> 
> For me, it's not only about what's in the cup. If it was I would probably not keep waking up to a temperamental Italian hissing and spitting at me each morning (La Pavoni) 😁


 Agree too. I'm not suggesting I can taste the difference. But neither can I drive a high end German sports car even close to its limit and that didn't stop me buying one. I don't think high end coffee kit is rational, neither is high end hifi kit, or ludicrously fast cars.

I like the look of the Weber, design does matter to me. I bought a Niche and it's not what I expected, a disappointment, so it's on the out. Looking forward to trying something new.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

Came across this on the Key's webpage, for those who are thinking of ordering.

"_*CAMPAIGN LINK*: The KEY will be crowdfunded starting in June. Skip straight to the Indiegogo page for a ~$500 discount on Day 1 (June 22nd) only. The price will go up every day until it reaches our standard pricing shown.*CAMPAIGN LINK*: *The KEY will be crowdfunded starting in June. Skip straight to the Indiegogo page for a ~$500 discount on Day 1 (June 22nd) only. The price will go up every day until it reaches our standard pricing shown*."_


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## MrOrk (Apr 17, 2018)

There's been mention of total cost of the KEY including the indiegogo 25% discount. I don't think anyone's mentioned import tax? Will an import tax have to be paid? Any ideas how much?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

22% import and its the total landed inc shipping cost so if its $150 to ship ontop of the price you'll pay £1436,99 landed


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## 28362 (Dec 17, 2020)

Ordered. I believe it's October delivery.

Low mileage Niche Zero soon to be for sale.


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## GengisKhan (May 8, 2017)

In two minds here...Love the looks, simplicity and even tempted to go the whole hog and get the bean cellar/tamping mat...but its A LOT of cash and maybe overkill for me and my setup.

Would I see difference in the cup against my Mazzer Mini 63mm and using the Rocket Appartamento? Not sure for £1400+


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I had an HG-1 when they first came out (and subsequently to that). I loved the looks, the 'Zen' noise the cup made when tu released the stopper, even loved the coffee .............the HG-2 may well compensate with the gearbox, but I found the hand grinding an absolute ball ache, especially if you wanted multiple shots! So hats off to anyone who jumps in for one of these. I seem to remember an 18 gm shot needing 50 or so cranks, I kid you not!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I seem to remember an 18 gm shot needing 50 or so cranks, I kid you not!


 I had a Kinu M68. It had 68mm conical burrs, and I could comfortably grind 18g in approx. 30s. Even though it collected into a cup, I hated the static and the mess made afterwards. Yes, spraying the coffee solved the issue, but I don't like that. I then sold it and bought the Niche.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

stephenm said:


> Agree too. I'm not suggesting I can taste the difference. But neither can I drive a high end German sports car even close to its limit and that didn't stop me buying one. I don't think high end coffee kit is rational, neither is high end hifi kit, or ludicrously fast cars.
> 
> I like the look of the Weber, design does matter to me. I bought a Niche and it's not what I expected, a disappointment, so it's on the out. Looking forward to trying something new.


 Of curiosity, what did you expect and didn't find?


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I had a Kinu M68. It had 68mm conical burrs, and I could comfortably grind 18g in approx. 30s. Even though it collected into a cup, I hated the static and the mess made afterwards. Yes, spraying the coffee solved the issue, but I don't like that. I then sold it and bought the Niche.


 Did you get rid of the static with Niche? I have seen there is 0 static with my doser conical K10.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

profesor_historia said:


> Did you get rid of the static with Niche


 For the beans I use, I have no static with my Niche. everything ends up inside my portafilter. With the Kinu, it was (unfortunately) a clean up operation every single time.


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## 28362 (Dec 17, 2020)

£1.3m sold so far on day one &#8230;


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## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

It is a shame the magic shaker doesn't fit in a 54mm portafilter 🤣


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## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

So, genuinely thinking about going for one of these but ofcourse there is little information available. I assume it would provide results similar to a HG-1?

If so, how do you feel this would pair with LSM group?


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