# Advice on new coffee machine...kind of newbie here!



## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

Hi everybody,

I'm really glad I found this forum. I'm a little bit confused...

Let me begin by saying that I'm an Italian living in London, we share the same passion for some good coffee









My current coffee machine doesn't satisfy me anymore (Krups F880). I use Illy ground coffee (black label) but it seems that the quality of the coffee my little Krups produces has been decreasing over time.

In these days it tastes like dirty water...I descaled and took care of this little coffee machine, it's 5 years old and I live in London. Perhaps the hard water has taken its toll?!?

I'm now in the market for a replacement. I drink 1 coffee a day (at home, in the morning before I go to work) and 2 coffees on Saturday and Sunday. So, all together, I don't drink a lot of coffee do I? But when I drink it, it has to be good.

I was looking for a hassle free machine that does excellent espresso, lattes and cappuccinos, fully automatic.

My budget is between £500 and £800. The machine has to be with relatively low maintenance and quick...I have literally 5 minutes in the morning for the coffee...

I was looking at the De Longhi 5500, 23.450, 6620. How are these machines? Does anybody know why the 5500 costs almost half compared to the 6620? (Which seems identical specs to me?). And how about the 23.450? same spec in a smaller frame?

I've also got a doubt...wouldn't I be better off with a Nespresso Citiz with milk given my limited use and requirements? I do like good coffee though, and I'm a bit worried that the Citiz won't be as good as the 5500 etc.

I'd appreciate some advice...Thanks in advance!

PS: if the 5500 is good enough for my needs I'd be more than happy to pay as little as possible. (Perhaps I won't appreciate the benefits of the 6620 or higher?).

PPS: I haven't decided which beans to buy yet, I'll sort that out after I've purchased the machine.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Given your statement that you like really good coffee, have you considered going down the semi automatic espresso machine plus grinder route for your money. That would allow you to really get into the whole hands on espresso making experience which can be very rewarding if frustrating whilst you are learning.

However given your comment of wanting it in five minutes, you might not be prepared to consider this route but bear in mind with practise you will get a better coffee than with an automatic (my opinion)


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

DonRJ said:


> Given your statement that you like really good coffee, have you considered going down the semi automatic espresso machine plus grinder route for your money. That would allow you to really get into the whole hands on espresso making experience which can be very rewarding if frustrating whilst you are learning.
> 
> However given your comment of wanting it in five minutes, you might not be prepared to consider this route but bear in mind with practise you will get a better coffee than with an automatic (my opinion)


Hi DonRJ,

First of all, many thanks for the kind reply!

Unfortunately as much as I like good coffee I really can't spare much time in the morning. Get up at 620am, quick coffee (but it has to be of decent quality), quick shower, get ready to leave by 645am...

The coffee machine will have to be relatively quick (warm up, espresso, latte in less than 5 minutes), and low maintenance (unfortunately I don't have time to wash it until I'm back in the evenings. I quite like the 5500/23.450/6620 because you can store the milk jug in the fridge.

Do you know why the 6620 is considerably more expensive than the 5500? I can find the 5500 at Comet for £485, whereas the 6620 would cost me £810. Is it worth the extra money in your opinion? Are De Longhi good coffee machines in general?


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Welcome to the forum parajba.

I would second what Don has said. A fully automatic will in my opinion never touch the semi automatic route. Personally I would get up five minutes earlier to enjoy a fantastic coffee rather than a good/average one but if you want to go down the full auto route I'm sure someone will help you out. Most folk on here are into the more hands on approach so if you don't get a huge response it's not because you're being ignored it's just we don't know. I would email De Longhi and ask them for the differences and then come back on here and we can discuss it. For instance the 6620 may have a considerably better grinder (which will make a huge difference)


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

My brief experience with a DeLonghi bean-to-cup machine, a Magnifica 4200 is that it was a very clever machine (I bought it new then sold it on eBay) and easy to use. It just didn't make good espresso. They are also quite complex machines and a bit plasticy and I don't know how long they will last.

HOWEVER, many people seem very satisfied with these machines - there is no point in going down the semi-automatic/manual route if you aren't going to use it. There are so many factors involved in making espresso I'm sure the bean-to-cup machines vary enormously in the quality of their output. It's worth doing some research among people who actually own and use them as to which one works the best (which of course is exactly what you are doing).

Once you go the semi-auto route (typically, starting with the Gaggia Classic or the Rancilio Silvia) you are in a different world. It's a world of (potentially) great coffee. It's also a world of geeks and obsessives (count me in) constantly trying to find their route to the God Shot. If you think life is too short for that, then I totally understand the appeal of a bean-to-cup.

On the other hand, have you looked at the Aeropress? Great value, strictly speaking doesn't make espresso, but comes damn close. An easy, great cup of coffee for a 1/20 the price of a B to C.


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

RoloD said:


> On the other hand, have you looked at the Aeropress? Great value, strictly speaking doesn't make espresso, but comes damn close. An easy, great cup of coffee for a 1/20 the price of a B to C.


Talk about hitting the nail on the head









If you fancy an espresso style or filter style coffee, in very little time, and with the least possible effort, have a look at the Aeropress.


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

I imagine that a fully automatic or a semi would require time to warm up. So either of these options might require a time plug, or a change in your morning sequence to turn the machine on.


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks everybody for the kind replies...I had a look at the Aeropress....filter coffee is not really my thing...

The new coffee maker should be better then the existing one (Krups f880, semi-auto). The Krups used to do good espressos...but not anymore.

Re the fully automated De Longhi, I'm a bit worried about reliability...These machines are complex by design, they have many moving parts and electronics. Not an ideal mix!

I'm tempted by the Gaggia Classic. Perhaps I can just start with the Classic (which will effectively be the like-for-like replacement for my Krups), and the perhaps buy a separate grinder and learn the Art. I would have to use ground coffee initially, the same black label illy I use now...

How long does it take to prepare an espresso from scratch with the Classic using ground coffee? And using beans? I confess I don't know anything about grinding your own coffee (I should do some research), but I'm puzzled...I guess you grind the beans minutes before the coffer so it stays fresh? How do you know the right amount? How do you move the coffee from the grinder to the filter cup?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Aeropress passes hot water under pressure over fine-ground coffee - the result tastes more like an espresso than filter coffee. It lacks the crema, but it will give you something that tastes a lot more like good espresso than many other systems. Don't dismiss the Aeropress so easily!

A machine like a Classic does need to warm up (but then so do bean-to-cup machines). Grinding a dose doesn't take long at all. Some grinders have a doser that delivers a measured amount, which sounds good in theory but it means you have to fill up the dosing mechanism which doesn't make sense if you are making only one or two coffees at a time. Most grinders will fill up a portafilter directly, some have timers. Either way, you will soon get used to delivering the right amount.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I think going for that Classic would be a great move. Especially if you like drinking cappa's and latte's as well. It shouldn't take you any longer than it does now to make yourself a beverage on the Gaggia.

With regards to grinding. If you have a half decent grinder this will add less than a minute to your coffee making but the results of grinding your own beans will be a huge improvement in taste... a vast improvement.

Now I've got the hang of my setup (a seperate grinder and semi auto machine) I can make myself a double espresso in a few minutes from fresh beans and a cappa or latte in about 7-8 minutes. This does not include waiting for the machine to warm up. I use a plug timer to switch my machine on in the morning while I'm still asleep so it's nice and hot when I go to use it.

All round I think it will work out cheaper with better long term results for you plus it will allow you to grow into the hobby should you wish to and upgrade various items when you want to as opposed to upgrading the whole machine because one thing is insufficient.

Hope this helps.


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks again for the great advice, I'll discuss with my wife and report back ;-).

Btw, does anybody know how to open/service the Krups 880? Perhaps it's making bad coffee because it needs cleaning? I cleaned the grid and percolation head as described in the manual, but in 4/5 years or so I never descaled it...







I didn't know about it. Until a few weeks ago. I descaled it, but nothing changed. I didn't use a Krups specific descaler, I used some generic stuff for kettles from Waitrose.

Perhaps can somebody explain what sort of maintenance I can carry out on the Krup before I permanently bin it? I wouldn't mind opening it completely, is there anything inside that can be cleaned?


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

I have some good advice parajba. Buy a decent machine and get up earlier.


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

I saw a few Jura (but the price goes up from the De Longhi and Gaggia!), they look good too. Too many options, that's the problem...!


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

parajba said:


> I saw a few Jura (but the price goes up from the De Longhi and Gaggia!), they look good too. Too many options, that's the problem...!


I know that problem...









Here's what I'd suggest (agreeing with pretty much everything already said







)

Do you want true espresso and/or latte/cappuccinos?

If No - then the Aeropress had been suggested but I'd also point out a stove-top pot (You mention you're Italian, so I guess you've come across these and aren't happy with the result? I've got a Bialetti Mini Express which is much more simple than my Gaggia for a quick coffee and just as tasty (but different) when it's done right.)

If Yes - how much time outside the day-to-day routine do you want to put in?

If lots - then a semi-auto (Gaggia Classic/Baby Class or Rancillio Silvia are the most recommended starter machines) is fine. Whilst you can become quite quick once your routine is down, getting the hang of that routine requires practice and playing around. This is the route most people on the forum have taken.

If not too much - then a bean-to-cup is probably the way to go. I can't comment on the machines (since I haven't owned one).

As to fixing the Krups, I haven't got any specific information beyond saying that there are parts of espresso machines that do wear out with time - seals that break, etc. I don't know whether one of the companies that provides espresso machine servicing would also cover something like the Krups, or whether the price for that kind of service might be prohibitive?


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

Can somebody explain the difference between a Gaggia Classic and a Gaggia Espresso Pure (Red)? There's £100 difference between the two machines.

I talked to my wife and:

1. The Jura is out of the equation, too expensive.

2. The Nespresso is out of the equation too.

3. She pretty much likes the Gaggia Red.

I think I'll just buy a Gaggia (perhaps Classic) and in the future I'll buy a separate grinder.

Thanks all for your advices!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

The main difference is that the Classic has a three way solenoid fitted, this relieves the pressure in the portafilter at the end of the brewing cycle, exhausting the residual liquid into the drip tray. This leaves you with a dry rather than wet coffee puck to knock out. Less messy to deal with. If you prefer the look of the Pure, consider looking at the Gaggia Baby, this has the solenoid and a less retro look than the Classic (cheaper too, under £200). I had a Baby Dose for a few years and was very pleased with it, still going strong in the hands of one of my mates.


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## philq (Feb 9, 2011)

.... without wanting to hijack someone else's post I'm in a similar position as the OP

Debating between:

Gaggia Classic (which seems the default option)

Isomac Giada (prefer the idea of a brass boiler but is the lack of a 3 way solenoid a problem?)

Also debating where to buy: the two cheapest options on the web i.e CI any MyEsp both seem to get fairly poor reviews online

Advice gratefully received


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks DonRJ, so the Gaggia Baby and Classic are identical (internally)? Is the price difference a premium for the name/retro design? The Pure is on a lower level then, from a construction point of view?

If you had £300, would you choose:

1. Classic, £270

2. Baby, £200

3. Pure, £160

4. Baby Class, £280

5. Any other Gaggia?

Thanks!


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

philq said:


> Isomac Giada


I have read that the lower spec Isomacs, like the Giada, suffer from quality problems.



> If you had £300, would you choose:
> 
> 1. Classic, £270
> 
> ...


The Classic. Shop around - I thought somebody posted a link to a good deal at Dixons.


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

BanishInstant, thanks for the reply. I found the Classic at £227 on Outlet Italy. It's £280 at Dixons. But, if it breaks down...the convenience of having the shop around the corner I guess.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

The Baby and Classic all have the same internals, premium for the Classic will be the cost of fabrication and perhaps a bit for the name, Glenn saw somewhere doing the Classic for £220 recently so have a surf around or a used one on Ebay can be a bargain

At the £300 price point I have to say it is a no brainer, get the Classic, solid build which will stay looking good far longer than the Baby (my only issue with it)

and you can add in the Rancilio Silvia steam wand later and do get a non pressurised filter basket.


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

DonRJ said:


> The Baby and Classic all have the same internals, premium for the Classic will be the cost of fabrication and perhaps a bit for the name, Glenn saw somewhere doing the Classic for £220 recently so have a surf around or a used one on Ebay can be a bargain
> 
> At the £300 price point I have to say it is a no brainer, get the Classic, solid build which will stay looking good far longer than the Baby (my only issue with it)
> 
> and you can add in the Rancilio Silvia steam wand later and do get a non pressurised filter basket.


Thanks again for the advice DonRJ. Re the non-pressurised filter basket...I don't really know the difference between a pressurised and a non-pressurised one. I'll google it and see what I find out but, do I have a choice when buying the Classic? Why is the pressurised basket a bad thing? I don't even know how it looks like...Newbie ah!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

The pressurised basket has a little gadget built into it which creates a sort of crema, often found in cheap espresso machines but if you are using correctly ground coffee you get a better result using an ordinary filter basket in the Classic. The standard unpressurised basket is a cheap thing to buy if not supplied with the machine.

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/PRD_ProductDetail.aspx?prodid=668

Search the site there is quite a lot of of discussion about the issue.


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

Try this thread which discuss the issues and solution.


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## parajba (Feb 7, 2011)

Ok, here's an update.

Yesterday we went to the local Currys to check out the Classic. It's £20 more expensive than the next best deal (with UK warranty) which was Comet. But Currys has a megastore just around the corner, so we couldn't not check it out.

When we got there we found out that they had a massive clearance on Jura machines (I didn't even know that they were selling Juras in the first place!). They had a Jura Impressa J5 on sale for £674 instead of (I googled it) £950 which is the best price I could find on-line.

They guy was desperate to sell the Juras (there were other models, all with a 35/40% discount). After a long negotiation, we walked out with the Jura J5 and an additional 5-year on-site warranty from Currys for £674.

Let me elaborate a bit. I would have been happy with the Classic, it was in stock, but my wife (and the 8 month old daughter!) appreciate the convenience of a decent coffee and the ease of use of a Jura (and the favourable deal).

Thanks everybody for your help.

PS: Coffee seems good (way better than the Krups I had, can't compare it - really), the crema is amber, thick and doesn't dissolve in an instant. I need to buy some decent beans now. I used some Machu Picchu beans from Waitrose that I quickly bought on the way home. On this note, I'll order some beans from Hasbeans. Just double checking, I guess I'll have to order the 'Roasted Whole Beans'?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

parajba said:


> PS: Coffee seems good (way better than the Krups I had, can't compare it - really), the crema is amber, thick and doesn't dissolve in an instant. I need to buy some decent beans now. I used some Machu Picchu beans from Waitrose that I quickly bought on the way home. On this note, I'll order some beans from Hasbeans. Just double checking, I guess I'll have to order the 'Roasted Whole Beans'?


That's right. However sophisticated the Jura is, it doesn't actually roast the beans...

It's great if you've found a bean-to-cup that makes good coffee. If they produce the cup you want, I'm all for them. Not everyone has the time or inclination to go down the enthusiast/obsessionist route, into the dark world of custom tampers, PID controls and Teflon coated portafilers.

Let us know how you get on!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Very good deal you got there parajba, the Jura machines get some very good reviews from users


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