# Alternative to Volvic?



## pottolom (Jan 17, 2019)

£1.69 for 4 x 2 litre bottles.


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

Just get Lockhills from Waitrose. £1.47 for 4 x 2ltr bottles


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Just get Lockhills from Waitrose. £1.47 for 4 x 2ltr bottles


Can't remeber the safe values off the top of my head but I'm sure @MWJB will be along shortly to advise if it's suitable.


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> So roughly twice the price of the co-op one.
> 
> Can't remeber the safe values off the top of my head but I'm sure @MWJB will be along shortly to advise if it's suitable.


OP said £1.69 for the same amount of water...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> So roughly twice the price of the co-op one.
> 
> Can't remeber the safe values off the top of my head but I'm sure @MWJB will be along shortly to advise if it's suitable.


Church Stretton is what used to be sold as one of Waitrose Essentials waters, before the current Lockhills.

Shouldn't scale, bicarbonate is a tad low, if it tastes OK go with it (I found it made bright coffee, but could also have a dry/burnt white sugar finish, so I mostly mixed it with something else - half:half with Volvic, or mix with a little Highland Spring to bring up the bicarbonate).


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> So roughly twice the price of the co-op one.
> 
> Can't remeber the safe values off the top of my head but I'm sure @MWJB will be along shortly to advise if it's suitable.


How do work that out mate? Lockhills works out @ £0.27 pence cheaper?


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## pottolom (Jan 17, 2019)

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Just get Lockhills from Waitrose. £1.47 for 4 x 2ltr bottles


Waitrose doesn't have much of a presence where I am (way up north).


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## pottolom (Jan 17, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Church Stretton is what used to be sold as one of Waitrose Essentials waters, before the current Lockhills.
> 
> Shouldn't scale, bicarbonate is a tad low, if it tastes OK go with it (I found it made bright coffee, but could also have a dry/burnt white sugar finish, so I mostly mixed it with something else - half:half with Volvic, or mix with a little Highland Spring to bring up the bicarbonate).


Thanks! Very helpful.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> How do work that out mate? Lockhills works out @ £0.27 pence cheaper?


My mistake. Misread the lockhills as 2 x 2l bottles.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Just get Lockhills from Waitrose. £1.47 for 4 x 2ltr bottles


Annoyingly the bristol waitrose, right around the corner from my house, stocks the wrong water!

Stuck with Tesco Asheck, which i am starting to dislike the taste of.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Shouldn't scale, bicarbonate is a tad low, if it tastes OK go with it (I found it made bright coffee, but could also have a dry/burnt white sugar finish, so I mostly mixed it with something else - half:half with Volvic, or mix with a little Highland Spring to bring up the bicarbonate).


Sorry @MWJB but is that sentence referring to the Waitrose or Co op water?

I've got a co op local but not a Waitrose so would be interested to know if the co op water is good.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jon_Foster said:


> Sorry @MWJB but is that sentence referring to the Waitrose or Co op water?
> 
> I've got a co op local but not a Waitrose so would be interested to know if the co op water is good.


Co op water (Church Stretton, was Waitrose 'Stretton Hills'). If it tastes good as is, you don't have a problem, I wasn't mad keen on it by itself, but that is easily remedied (if necessary).


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Aaah got it, brilliant, thank you!

I've been using Ashbeck from Tesco in my Classic, I'm happy with the taste but do you know if it's still a good option scale wise?

Is there a reason one of these (Ashbeck or Stretton would be preferable?

Thanks again


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jon_Foster said:


> Aaah got it, brilliant, thank you!
> 
> I've been using Ashbeck from Tesco in my Classic, I'm happy with the taste but do you know if it's still a good option scale wise?
> 
> ...


The preferable one would make your coffee taste better.  I don't like either by themselves, you might.

Ashbeck is softer & lower pH & bicarbonate. Neither water will scale appreciably, Ashbeck is a little more likely to be corrosive & doesn't fall in any current standard for ideal boiler water.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

MWJB said:


> The preferable one would make your coffee taste better.  I don't like either by themselves, you might.
> 
> Ashbeck is softer & lower pH & bicarbonate. Neither water will scale appreciably, Ashbeck is a little more likely to be corrosive & doesn't fall in any current standard for ideal boiler water.


Thank you, just wanted to make sure neither would give me any scale issues









I've never actually tried any different water at home before... I'll mix my Ashbeck with some Volvic and see if I can taste the difference (not sure my taste buds are up to it, fingers crossed though!)

Thanks again dude!


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

If you're in a soft water area, just use tap water + a carbon block filter....


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Had a fault on my machine so had to strip down a few parts for maintenance. OPV, 2 way solenoid & entire E61. 6 years of Ashbeck and no signs of scale in these parts at all.


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## db8000 (Dec 6, 2017)

Just keep a watch. The co-op 5litre bottle is different from the 2litre bottle but otherwise the same names/label design. The 5litre is too hard for coffee machines.


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## Teejay (Dec 4, 2017)

pottolom said:


> Waitrose doesn't have much of a presence where I am (way up north).


There's a Waitrose in Hexham and Newcastle. Hexham shouldn't be a massive hike if buy plenty


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## pottolom (Jan 17, 2019)

Teejay said:


> There's a Waitrose in Hexham and Newcastle. Hexham shouldn't be a massive hike if buy plenty


Thanks!


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

I have been trying to get my head around water and reading all the threads. Is this correct:

1. For espresso you need to watch for scaling - hence rationale for using volvic - or equivalent

2. Also need to watch for taste - volvic not quite right - so ideally need to blend with other water - e.g. Waitrose essential so it tastes better - increase amount of minerals

3. With brew there is less need for controlling scaling and you should use a higher mineral content water which tastes better?

It would be quite good to get a definitive recipe for water for both brew and espresso if someone who is knowledgable might kindly summarise? Maybe we need a water 'sticky' thing that is in the beginners knowledge section of the forum?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

1. Yes, broadly correct. Using a particular water that doesn't scale but makes your coffee taste bad isn't a great idea. Plus you generally want some bicarbonates & a pH over 6 to lessen the chances of corrosion.

2. If Volvic tases OK, no need to change. Volvic sits just outside of recommended spec for boiler care, but just outside, Waitrose Lockhills is smack bang in the middle of desired range.

3. For brewing, the make up of the water has no impact on objective extraction yield, you don't need high mineral content to extract the flavour. It does change the taste of the coffee, so just use a water that doesn't ruin your coffee (could still be Volvic or Lockhills if that's what you can easily get).You probably don't want your brew kettles scaling up either, if they have their own element. If you get good brews with high mineral content water & your kettle & brewers are easy to clean/descale carry on. But, high mineral content water usually also comes with high bicarbonate, which can flatten acidity and make the body seem overly chewy.

I use very soft water at home for brewing because I prefer the taste. At work, or visting friends & relatives, I use regular N Surrey tap water (hard), I still get some very tasty brews here, especially with long steep immersions. I found the water in Menorca very difficult to get a decent brew & had to use some Estrella I, which is similar to Highland Spring in make up & the softest water I could reasonably find.


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

MWJB said:


> 1. Yes, broadly correct. Using a particular water that doesn't scale but makes your coffee taste bad isn't a great idea. Plus you generally want some bicarbonates & a pH over 6 to lessen the chances of corrosion.
> 
> 2. If Volvic tases OK, no need to change. Volvic sits just outside of recommended spec for boiler care, but just outside, Waitrose Lockhills is smack bang in the middle of desired range.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot MJWB really appreciate the advice. I was very luckily driving past a Waitrose today so have picked up 16 bottles of Lockhills. Have you ever thought of using a filter/serial filters - maybe BWT for removing scale and then a carbon for taste? Or do you always tend to buy bottled?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nod said:


> Thanks a lot MJWB really appreciate the advice. I was very luckily driving past a Waitrose today so have picked up 16 bottles of Lockhills. Have you ever thought of using a filter/serial filters - maybe BWT for removing scale and then a carbon for taste? Or do you always tend to buy bottled?


I currently use a Zerowater jug, which I mix with my local tap water at 1 part tap to 9 parts Zerowater for brewed.

1 part tap to 5 parts Zero if it's going in a machine.

I got heavily into mixing up to 3 waters in the past, but this is now my faff limit for day to day use.

Before that I used Deeside for brewed & Lockhills in a machine (also for brewed if I ran out of Deeside), Deeside became unavailable so I went for the Zerowater option, it's only for coffee (& girlfriend's tea) so a filter lasts me 3 months.

At work/visiting I make brewed coffee with the local hard water that comes out of the tap (it is scaling up my Hario pouring kettle despite the fact I have never heated water in it).

I'm not sure how/if you can filter for scale & taste separately - it's the magnesium, calcium & bicarbonate that drive scaling, they also affect taste of brewed drinks.

Not all water that meets non-scaling parameters makes coffee that tastes nice. The shorthand answer is to find water with 50-80mg/L (as ion, not as CaCO3 - this would be 40-60mg/L) bicarbonate for your espresso machine, that tastes nice.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MWJB said:


> I currently use a Zerowater jug, which I mix with my local tap water at 1 part tap to 9 parts Zerowater for brewed.
> 
> 1 part tap to 5 parts Zero if it's going in a machine.
> 
> ...


Dog & Hat sell Deeside if you're missing the taste.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

@MWJB - just a thought , but given you are the forum's go-to water expert, and this question comes up all the time, is it worth writing an introductory sticky to cover the basics, recommended waters etc.? Not to put you out of a job replying to various mineral content questions, but if you could rationalise those answers into some guidance then might help people work out for themselves?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

rob177palmer said:


> @MWJB - just a thought , but given you are the forum's go-to water expert, and this question comes up all the time, is it worth writing an introductory sticky to cover the basics, recommended waters etc.? Not to put you out of a job replying to various mineral content questions, but if you could rationalise those answers into some guidance then might help people work out for themselves?


That would make a great sticky.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Let's get an encouraging chant going:

"MWJB...

...MWJB...

...MWJB...

...MWJB...

...MWJB...

...MWJB..."


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

I think this would be a great idea of MJWB would be kind enough to do it....


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Nod said:


> I think this would be a great idea of MJWB would be kind enough to do it....


Check the check the stickies on Coffee Lounge - he has had a busy day already!


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Right now the thread has finished with the sensible stuff, I can come back to this.



MWJB said:


> I found the water in Menorca very difficult to get a decent brew


So you're saying the water, in Menorca, didn't taste like what it oughta?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> Right now the thread has finished with the sensible stuff, I can come back to this.
> 
> So you're saying the water, in Menorca, didn't taste like what it oughta?


There's maybe truth behind the old Heineken ad  The water supply where we were is apparently very high in magnesium.

Very scaly, if you make a cup of tea, the brew turns slightly milky even before you add any milk.


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