# Duo Temp Pro difficulties



## Kroyne

Hi everyone

I am a new member to the forum but have found some threads helpful before registering. I am hoping for some help from anyone who has experience with the DTP, or who might be able to help diagnose the problems I am having with it.

I recently bought a Sage DTP (Â£250 on Amazon.co.uk) to go with my new grinder, the Sette 270W. This follows a couple of years using the Delonghi Dedica paired with a Bodum Bistro grinder, which broke after a few years of use. I upgraded the broken grinder to the Sette 270W, then decided I needed to step up the espresso machine to go with it, and opted for the DTP.

I've had a lot of difficulty dialling in the machine. To date, I've been through at least 1kg of beans in doing this and have had no good shots, and several completely undrinkable shots.

Without wanting to go into too much detail about the specific settings I am using, I will say I have mostly dosed consistently using the trimming tool, after grinding by weight somewhere in the 15-18g range. I have aimed for consistency in the volume of coffee more so than the weight, following the machine instructions. I've ground in the 5E (which results in a tiny dribble of coffee) to 10E (which pours very quickly) range on the Sette 270W. For the sake of consistency, I am using Illy (red) beans. They are maybe not the best but I am sure should be able to provide a drinkable cup with this equipment. I have almost exclusively used the single-wall double basket, but even had trouble with the equivalent dual-wall basket, including when I used pre-ground coffee - also Illy.






After struggling a great deal, I began to wonder about channeling issues which might result from the pour from the shower screen. I am not sure how much of an issue this is, but I found the shower screen pours predominately from the right when I don't attach the portafilter. See the linked video for a demonstration. The coffee pucks seemed to me at least to indicate some channeling down the right too. So, I decided to return the machine for a replacement (thanks Amazon) and have now been using the replacement but the experience has been the same, including with the pour being mainly on the right from the shower screen. My work surface is level.

So either I've received two dud machines, which seems unlikely but possible, or the flow distribution is not much of a problem and I'm making some consistent mistake in my technique.

I am waiting to hear back from a Sage customer support rep next week. However, it would perhaps be even more useful to hear from anyone on this forum who has used this combination of grinder and machine, or anyone who can shed some light on whether the shower screen issue is in fact a problem from their experience.

Thanks for reading and thanks in advance for any help.


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## Mrboots2u

Hi and welcome

If you want consistency in your coffee then you need a consistent dose ( 15-18 is a big variation ) are you dosing to 0.1g each time . a 3g variation is huge for any basket you are using.

Then measure by weight not volume . Stop the shot at a target weight , not time and taste.

If you are under and over dosing then this will cause channeling.

Do you have a naked PF , can you see channeling ?

It's easy to blame gear but the combo you have should be able to make great coffee. So before ANYONE starts telling you its the gear, look at your process at technique.

Also Your beans will not be the freshest, get some fresh roasted decent beans . Not Illy or other supermarket coffee.

These are the variables you need to remove before looking at it the equipment is at fault


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## Kroyne

Thanks for your reply.

I should have explained more clearly how I dosed. The manual recommends 15-18g, so I have stayed within this range. On day 1, I dosed 16g. I tried several grind settings at this weighed dose before eventually trying 17g, then similarly before moving to 18g. But I usually trimmed using the supplied trimming tool, unless my tamp was already really even. I kept track of the settings I used, but always tried to cut the shot based on colour of the flow rather than weight, then weighed the cup, tasted, then usually spat out some horrible coffee!

I don't have a naked portafilter but if anyone knows where I could get one (54mm) I would be interested.

I understand and do agree it is likely a problem with my technique somehow. However, the results aren't just non-optimal but often completely undrinkable.


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## MWJB

If you're dosing 18.0g you don't need to trim using the tool, in fact doing so is likely to disrupt your puck.

Don't kill the shot based on colour. Kill it to achieve desired weight, weighing the cup after the shot is like playing 'pin the tail on the donkey'.

Try 18:54g, let us know the grind setting & time you run the pump for & what it tasted like.


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## 4085

Coffee is all about extraction. Forget what the manual says! These machines are aimed at people with little or no interest in proper coffee. You have to stick with one input weight, lets say 18 grams and always dose at that level. then, that is one parameter that is now a constant. Then decide how much coffee you want toe extract. Lets us say you want 36 grams out. This means putting a cup on scales under the basket. Once you are happy that you are extracting the right amount, taste it. You might need to extract more or less depending on what you like. As long as the shot does not pour too quickly ie 15 to 20 seconds, then let your taste buds be the judge. But remember, as Boots said, 15 to 18 gms is far too large a band. We are trying to teach you properly! The Sette is a good grinder when it works and should produce a nice fluffy mound. it should not need levelling, so just tamp down on the cone of coffee. If you are getting channelling, and without a naked pf it will be hard to judge. Is the coffee coming out of both spouts evenly?


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## Kroyne

Thanks MWJB, I appreciate the advice. Stopping by desired weight will be a change of approach. I will give this a go.

I will need to pick up some scales this afternoon that will be suitable for weighing as I pour.

As I am currently sitting in Starbucks, I will take home a couple of bags from here and use those. While I accept they won't be ideal, I will settle for drinkable at this stage. Heck, even matching the results from the Delonghi and Bodum Bistro would please me today!

I will update in a couple of hours.


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## Kroyne

Thanks dfk41, also.

I'm off to pick up some scales that will fit under the portafilter, hopefully at John Lewis which is right across the road.


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## 4085

If not, then jewellery scales from any 'cheap' shop/ Ideally weighing in increments of 0.01 grams. Your Starbucks coffee will not help you the much though!


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## Missy

The razor may well disturb the bed of coffee... And really isn't necessary (I'm sure some hardcore sage fans disagree, but ask yourself why are sage the only manufacturer to include one)

You really do need to weigh your output. That way you know whether you are changing the ratio.

And my final suggestion is to let the espresso cool a little before you taste it. (And give it a stir before you drink it)


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## Kroyne

I wasn't able to find any scales today small enough to fit, so I am planning to order some to arrive tomorrow.


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## ajohn

The grinder setting is pretty critical. Your best option in the initial setting to work from would be 5E and open up until you get the output you want BUT the real aim is the taste you want so ratio's are secondary. The over and under extraction etc in the Sage manual is very misleading. You might find yourself going well out of suggested levels of over and under extraction.

The razor tool will give people a good start so for a beginner isn't a bad idea. It's not intended to remove colossal amounts of coffee or get the tamp level. What it will do is set a sensible fill height in the basket how ever the coffee is ground. Critic's haven't got one or have never used it or maybe have and are clumsy. I have several times. Within it's limitations it's fine for sorting grinder settings out. What I find it generally does is set the level a little lower than it could be but that is a much better option than sticking too much in. How much the grounds can expand when the water goes in can have a big effect on taste. On a BE because it has a pressure gauge the pre infusion pressure can be seen to climb as they expand - when it's right for me anyway.

Sage's quoted basket sizes are aimed at covering different grinds and different types of beans. I used a bean in the double recently and found that it held 20.5g with the beans and grind level I was using. The razor tool would have left it a bit lower than that but still over 18g.

All of this is pointless if tamping isn't pretty consistent. One good thing about the tamper that comes with the machine is that it can be settled into the basket and fingers run around the rim to check that it is level before really applying any significant pressure. In fact that can be checked the same way after tamping and corrected via a bit more pressure. I find the best way to keep tamping consistent is to strain a bit.







I had problems with tamping out of level for some time after buying the machine as the portafilter sits at an angle even more so now as the end is on a thick tamping mat.

The manual tells you how to clean the shower screen. The behaviour you mention tends to be a feature of these machines not helped if baskets are under filled. Sage don't really supply a suitable tool for cleaning it all including what is under the actual screen. The shower screen can be removed and washed out. The rest is best done with a grouphead cleaning brush. They have an angled end so can be dampened with hot water from the grouphead without scalding fingers. Also used for periodically brushing over the shower screen the same way. That often restores it's correct action if it's not too fouled up already.

I use a BE which in some respects is the same as the DTP so I am pretty sure that the DTP manual also mentions flushing the portafilter with an empty basket in it before pulling a shot. Then dry the basket and fill with grinds etc. As well as heating up some bits in the machine it also helps keep the shower screen clean.

Getting the shower screen out is a bit of a pain. I recently bought a basket extraction tool and found one of those makes it very quick and easy. It just needs a little care to avoid damaging the grouphead seal.

Razor tool - I use it and then switch to weight for further tuning. It's quicker than trying to keep the fill height constant while the grind is changed. I've also found that when a grind has been found for a bean others are very likely to not need much if any adjustment - that's fresh roasted though. The other type can vary from grind hardly mattering to something different being needed.








There is a Sage video on how to use the razor tool over a knock box. Trouble is that this tends to leave some loose grounds in. Not many but if you blow them out they may get in your eyes, try and knock out might upset things so the best option is to shake them about a bit and tamp again.

John

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## sues1958

I have the same DTP machine...it also has water coming out more on the right side. I did notice that myself awhile ago but thought that was how it was supposed to be. I use 18g in and 36g out and enjoy every cup. I've used best beans and supermarket ones and had what I like out of both.

Sue x


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## Kroyne

That's interesting to know, Sue.

Do you know what is your brew time from first turning the switch?

Perhaps more relevant, are you using the trimming tool at all?


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## Mrboots2u

Kroyne said:


> That's interesting to know, Sue.
> 
> Do you know what is your brew time from first turning the switch?
> 
> Perhaps more relevant, are you using the trimming tool at all?


Honestly time is not the key here and will differ for dose , coffee etc.

Sues tasty shot at 25 seconds is meaningless to what you need to do


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## 4085

It really is simple......weigh in, weight out....try to tamp to the same level, adjust to your own taste


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## Kroyne

Thanks, I understand.


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## ajohn

sues1958 said:


> I have the same DTP machine...it also has water coming out more on the right side. I did notice that myself awhile ago but thought that was how it was supposed to be. I use 18g in and 36g out and enjoy every cup. I've used best beans and supermarket ones and had what I like out of both.
> 
> Sue x


The shower screen tends to get more and more like that as it fouls up. I have a BE and assume it's the same. When you take the shower screen off if you use a mirror and look where it sits you will see the screw hole that holds the screen in place and another offset from it. That's the one the water comes out of. The BE is said to have a 3 way valve and the DTP hasn't but the same thing probably happens over time. Bits get behind the shower screen and spoil the flow though it. In my case if left way to long just about all of the water comes out in the area where the hole is. If it's all clean it's far more even.

3 way is a funny name for it really. It's usually done with 2 solenoids. The one that lets the pressure out at the end of the shot is just opened when the shot is finished. The DTP may have some way of doing that so that the shot does stop when it's turned off otherwise more coffee would come out as the pressure dropped.

John

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## sues1958

Kroyne said:


> That's interesting to know, Sue.
> 
> Do you know what is your brew time from first turning the switch?
> 
> Perhaps more relevant, are you using the trimming tool at all?


As soon as I turn the switch, it takes 10 seconds before the coffee flows then with my cup on scales, I turn the switch off when it gets to about 33g. It gets to 36g when the coffee stops dripping.

I don't use the trimming tool, I use scales. Buy scales that do 0.5 and ones you can set to 0 with the porta filter on. Bought mine off Amazon - Amir Digital scales. Also found that a better tamper helps so I bought a Mota tamper.

Sue x


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## sues1958

ajohn said:


> The shower screen tends to get more and more like that as it fouls up. I have a BE and assume it's the same. When you take the shower screen off if you use a mirror and look where it sits you will see the screw hole that holds the screen in place and another offset from it. That's the one the water comes out of. The BE is said to have a 3 way valve and the DTP hasn't but the same thing probably happens over time. Bits get behind the shower screen and spoil the flow though it. In my case if left way to long just about all of the water comes out in the area where the hole is. If it's all clean it's far more even.
> 
> 3 way is a funny name for it really. It's usually done with 2 solenoids. The one that lets the pressure out at the end of the shot is just opened when the shot is finished. The DTP may have some way of doing that so that the shot does stop when it's turned off otherwise more coffee would come out as the pressure dropped.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Hi John,

Mine has done it from the day I bought it. I've had the machine about a month now.


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## Kroyne

Thanks Sue. I ordered the scales just above yours - also AMIR - for delivery tomorrow. I wasn't sure if the other ones would have fit on the drip tray.

I'm weighing the coffee in the grinder as it grinds by weight, presuming this is reliable.


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## Kroyne

I will also look into getting a new tamper, although I do like the convenience of the magnetic attachment. Sue, did you go for a 53mm or 54mm Motta one? I am sure I read that 54mm may actually be too large?


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## 9719

@Kroyne @sues1958 I may be able to help in regards to the water coming from one side of the group head, DavecUK has to be thanked for this, its often the little things that makes all the differance. There's lots of other very good reading on the site so do bookmark the home page.

So the link is:- http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/levelling-the-coffee-machine

Hope it helps even things up a little


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## Kroyne

Thanks for this information, mines_abeer. This gives me something to have a play around with while waiting for the scales tomorrow. No more coffee for me today!

I just checked using a spirit level. The right side of the shower head is slightly lower than the left. The same is true for the drip tray, actually. I had previously only checked the work surface. I will adjust and see what difference, if any, it makes to the water distribution.


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## El carajillo

Following the foregoing information you are going in the right direction, consistency is a necessity.


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## 9719

Kroyne said:


> Thanks for this information, mines_abeer. This gives me something to have a play around with while waiting for the scales tomorrow. No more coffee for me today!
> 
> I just checked using a spirit level. The right side of the shower head is slightly lower than the left. The same is true for the drip tray, actually. I had previously only checked the work surface. I will adjust and see what difference, if any, it makes to the water distribution.


Make sure you level it as shown in the article, not on the top or the drip tray, its the group head which needs to be level nothing else. Found this out the hardway.


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## sues1958

mines_abeer said:


> @Kroyne @sues1958 I may be able to help in regards to the water coming from one side of the group head, DavecUK has to be thanked for this, its often the little things that makes all the differance. There's lots of other very good reading on the site so do bookmark the home page.
> 
> So the link is:- http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/levelling-the-coffee-machine
> 
> Hope it helps even things up a little


That's interesting...going to check mine now. Thanks for the tip.


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## sues1958

sues1958 said:


> That's interesting...going to check mine now. Thanks for the tip.


Checked and it is level


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## ajohn

sues1958 said:


> Hi John,
> 
> Mine has done it from the day I bought it. I've had the machine about a month now.


I've found that one shot can mess it up. Usually those that leave a rather wet puck especially if it's soggy. These days I go to great pains to avoid those. Over filling could too.

John

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## Kroyne

ajohn said:


> I've found that one shot can mess it up. Usually those that leave a rather wet puck especially if it's soggy. These days I go to great pains to avoid those. Over filling could too.
> 
> John
> 
> -


It is worth mentioning that my replacement machine also poured mostly on the right from the first pour. The first few pours were without any coffee or even the portafilter attached, so this was before any shots had been pulled.


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## joey24dirt

The water port behind the shower screen is on the right. It's a single hole so will fill from the right first. It hasn't made much of a difference from my experience with the machine and when using a naked pf, if tamping correctly, I get an even flow of water through the puck.

I've experimented with custom shower screens that distribute the water more effectively and it's made a marginal difference, so it's got to be down to technique.


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## Kroyne

joey24dirt said:


> The water port behind the shower screen is on the right. It's a single hole so will fill from the right first. It hasn't made much of a difference from my experience with the machine and when using a naked pf, if tamping correctly, I get an even flow of water through the puck.
> 
> I've experimented with custom shower screens that distribute the water more effectively and it's made a marginal difference, so it's got to be down to technique.


Thanks Joey, that's interesting and useful to know. I'm sure I am doing something wrong or inconsistent when dosing or tamping.

I will try again and will cut off by weight once the scales arrive today.

I ordered a new Motta tamper (53mm) and tamping station for delivery in a few days which will hopefully help further.


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## joey24dirt

Kroyne said:


> Thanks Joey, that's interesting and useful to know. I'm sure I am doing something wrong or inconsistent when dosing or tamping.
> 
> I will try again and will cut off by weight once the scales arrive today.
> 
> I ordered a new Motta tamper (53mm) and tamping station for delivery in a few days which will hopefully help further.


The 53mm motta makes a huge difference I think. More control over the tamp.

What beans are you using? How old are they? Sorry if I'm asking questions that have been answered already.

If you're using the razor can I suggest you try without for a few shots. Dose around 17g in the double non-pressurised, stir with cocktail stick, tamp then pull the shot and see if it improves 

That's just my workflow and it works for me. Let us know how you get on.


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## Kroyne

joey24dirt said:


> The 53mm motta makes a huge difference I think. More control over the tamp.
> 
> What beans are you using? How old are they? Sorry if I'm asking questions that have been answered already.
> 
> If you're using the razor can I suggest you try without for a few shots. Dose around 17g in the double non-pressurised, stir with cocktail stick, tamp then pull the shot and see if it improves
> 
> That's just my workflow and it works for me. Let us know how you get on.


Thanks for this info.

I'm looking forward to trying the Motta.

I have mostly used Illy beans, though I have some from Coffee Factory and now a couple of bags from Starbucks. It's been mentioned already - I understand Illy is not the best but I am sure they should at least be able to provide a drinkable cup.

I have been using the trimming tool after grinding directly into the basket. I think this may be where the problem lies.

The positioning of the portafilter hasn't been directly central as it is collecting the coffee (most of it collected near the front of the basket). I think I've managed to adjust that now though. But I also hadn't really been doing anything to even up the distribution before tamping other than trying to make sure I didn't lose too much excess coffee.

I've not got the scales yet so I haven't tried today. I had a lovely Moka pot coffee to wake me up!


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## Kroyne

The scales arrived this afternoon and I have pulled three double shots. All three shots tasted good. If these were the results I got from the start, I would have been quite happy.

Today I have used Starbucks beans, which are notably darker than those I had used up to now. I aimed for 17g in, 51g out, and made a note of my results.

Somehow, on all three occasions I forgot to note the actual weight of ground coffee. I set the grinder to deliver 17g, but it may be a bit out. From previous experience, I have found the grinder is at least consistent, and I just need to set the 'offset' correctly to get the exact weight I set. It is worth noting that there is not quite enough room for the portafilter to hold 17g when positioned on the holder on the grinder. The mound of coffee at the top is really quite large, and I tend to lose a bit. (When removing the portafilter, some more grinds dropped out, which I caught then dropped back on top of the mound as best I could before tamping!)

Anyway, the results:

Shot 1: Grinder setting 5E, the finest I have tried. The dose was an estimated 17g; the shot took about a minute (!) to pour up to what turned out to be 53g, just above my target weight. I used bathroom scales to estimate the tamp pressure which was about 29lbs. I was not optimistic about the taste given the extraction time, but it was actually good. The puck stuck to the shower screen when I removed the portafilter as one solid piece.

Shot 2: Grinder setting 6E, slightly coarser. The tamp pressure was about the same again. I didn't quite get an even tamp this time, but not far off. This time the shot took 36s to again reach 53g after overshooting my target 51g again. The taste was again pleasant.

Shot 3: Grinder setting 7E, coarser still. The tamp pressure was again about the same, and the shot took 28-29s to reach 53g (again!). Again, I enjoyed the shot.

I stopped at this stage as I expect moving coarser still (to setting 8E) may be a step too far and I am happy with the results, but I might try again shortly. I am also tempted to try 16g in for a 48g shot, given the slight waste and apparent lack of room.

The three differences compared to my previous experience are: Starbucks rather than Illy (or Coffee Factory) with a notably darker roast; no use of the trimming tool; and stopping the shot by weight each time.

I am really grateful for everyone's advice and insights regarding the shower screen etc. I will continue to try to dial in but am very happy so far, and looking forward to receiving the Motta tamper and tamping station!


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## Kroyne

I tried again, dosing down to 16g and aiming for a 48g shot.

Starting at setting 7E (where I ended up earlier for the 18g dose) the shot pulled quite quickly but tasted fine. Then I went to 6H before trying 6C, where I ended up with a quite good, perhaps slightly sour, shot pulled in 30 seconds.

More fun tomorrow.


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## jimbocz

I seem to remember an earlier thread where we figured out that everyone's DTP pours more from the right. Mine does and I've got a naked PF and I don't see any obvious channeling.

I also don't use the razor when I am paying attention and trying to get the best coffee. In that case you've got to weigh in and out, at least so it removes one variable. Once I'm in a hurry, I frequently use the razor and it's fine.

My personal opinion is that you've got crummy beans. I couldn't make a decent espresso with illy or Starbucks beans. Starbucks beans are burned practically to ashes because the the two highest priorities for them are consistency across all locations in every country and having a shot that tastes of something when mixed with 20 ounces of milk. The answer to both is to burn it. After all, burned toast tastes the same no matter what kitchen it comes out of.

I'd suggest that you find the fanciest independent coffee shop near you and buy some whole beans from them and continue your efforts. Also, go to the Rave website and order and bunch of signature blend or Italian job. That won't be delivered and have time to rest for almost two weeks. However, In two weeks you'll be wanting some good beans.


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## Kroyne

That's interesting to know. I couldn't find any thread where that was uncovered, but I can believe it is true.

I'll be trying out a variety of beans, as I do with other brew methods. I've previously had subscriptions with Hasbean and Coffee Factory, and have a local Artisan Roast roastery. However, I do not believe the results I described in this thread were just due to the beans, nor is it a problem with my machine, but rather technique which I am beginning to rectify. If Illy always tasted as horrendous as that (which it didn't with my previous machine) it would never sell.

Once I am happy with the consistency with my results at a 3:1 ratio, I will be looking to move towards a 2:1 but am not sure how to approach that in terms of grind, dose etc. from my current starting point. This thread isn't necessarily the place for it but if anyone wants to be especially helpful and chime in with some more advice then I am all ears.


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## Mrboots2u

Kroyne said:


> I tried again, dosing down to 16g and aiming for a 48g shot.
> 
> Starting at setting 7E (where I ended up earlier for the 18g dose) the shot pulled quite quickly but tasted fine. Then I went to 6H before trying 6C, where I ended up with a quite good, perhaps slightly sour, shot pulled in 30 seconds.
> 
> More fun tomorrow.


When you chage grind settings it would be worth stating if finer or not. Weight out and time again.


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## MWJB

Kroyne said:


> Once I am happy with the consistency with my results at a 3:1 ratio, I will be looking to move towards a 2:1 but am not sure how to approach that in terms of grind, dose etc. from my current starting point. This thread isn't necessarily the place for it but if anyone wants to be especially helpful and chime in with some more advice then I am all ears.


When happy at 3:1 (both the actual dose in the PF & beverage in the cup), grind finer, don't change the dose. If you detect sourness creeping in, go back to previous ratio/or grind finer. Out of interest, why do you want a 2:1 ratio specifically?

I know your grinder has PF forks for you to grind straight into the basket, but if this is having an effect on your dosing, stop. Grind into a cup, give it a shake, then tip it into the PF (easier with a funnel on the PF).


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## Kroyne

Thanks again, MWJB.

I'm continuing to get quite good results at a 3:1 ratio and don't plan any big changes any time soon other than experimenting with the beans.

The grinder portafilter holder thing is a bit annoying, but less so than switching up between brew methods even with the brew burr for the Sette.


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## Kroyne

After managing nice coffee from every attempt with the very dark Starbucks beans, I opened another tin of Illy and pulled some shots, again aiming for that 3:1 ratio... And I'm back to square one, at least as far as that coffee is concerned: every shot is undrinkable. I had similar results back when I started this thread with a freshly roasted single origin coffee.

I wonder about this. Is a dark roast 'easier' to dial in? i.e. is the roast masking some of the unpleasant flavours I am getting with other beans?

I also noticed the Illy coffee, which is roasted lighter than the dark Starbucks, at the same grind settings appears to occupy less space in the portafilter, as if it is finer ground.


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## jimbocz

Man, I wish you had taken my advice on the 19th of last month and ordered some coffee from Rave. It would just be ready to use right now and we could find out for sure if your problem is indeed that your beans are crap. Nobody else on this forum is even attempting to make good coffee with either Starbucks or Illy beans except you and you are the one asking why it tastes so horrible? I'm no expert on coffee and I've got a lot to learn, but it should tell you something that no one here is drinking Starbucks or Illy.

You said previously that the fact that other people buy it is proof that it can't be actually that bad. I thought about that one for a while and admit it is a bit funny, but think about this :

Have you ever ordered an espresso in a restaurant after a meal? I've been doing it for years, and almost every shot is completely nasty. Cold, bitter, sour, I've probably done it in a hundred restaurants and %90 are horrible. I'm certain this is the same experience of most people here. Logic says that restaurants wouldnt be able to keep selling coffee if it was so bad, but they do. And it is awful. Maybe it's because it is usually mixed with milk and sugar just like Illy at home.

Anyway, please try some different beans, freshly roasted whole beans from a roaster we all know. If I'm wrong and your coffee is still not good then at least we will have eliminated one giant variable.


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## MWJB

Kroyne said:


> After managing nice coffee from every attempt with the very dark Starbucks beans, I opened another tin of Illy and pulled some shots, again aiming for that 3:1 ratio... And I'm back to square one, at least as far as that coffee is concerned: every shot is undrinkable. I had similar results back when I started this thread with a freshly roasted single origin coffee.
> 
> I wonder about this. Is a dark roast 'easier' to dial in? i.e. is the roast masking some of the unpleasant flavours I am getting with other beans?
> 
> I also noticed the Illy coffee, which is roasted lighter than the dark Starbucks, at the same grind settings appears to occupy less space in the portafilter, as if it is finer ground.


The Illy is likely a lighter roast than Starbucks (lighter roast beans have less volume for the same mass, so take up less space). You will need to grind finer, or pull your shots longer.

Darker roasts still carry an intense flavour & are not so objectionally sour if under-extracted...less punishing when you get it wrong, but not technically any easier.


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## Kroyne

MWJB said:


> The Illy is likely a lighter roast than Starbucks (lighter roast beans have less volume for the same mass, so take up less space). You will need to grind finer, or pull your shots longer.
> 
> Darker roasts still carry an intense flavour & are not so objectionally sour if under-extracted...less punishing when you get it wrong, but not technically any easier.


Thanks. I tried finer but choked the machine. I will try again. No problem wasting these beans away before trying something else.


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## Kroyne

jimbocz said:


> Man, I wish you had taken my advice on the 19th of last month and ordered some coffee from Rave. It would just be ready to use right now and we could find out for sure if your problem is indeed that your beans are crap. Nobody else on this forum is even attempting to make good coffee with either Starbucks or Illy beans except you and you are the one asking why it tastes so horrible? I'm no expert on coffee and I've got a lot to learn, but it should tell you something that no one here is drinking Starbucks or Illy.
> 
> You said previously that the fact that other people buy it is proof that it can't be actually that bad. I thought about that one for a while and admit it is a bit funny, but think about this :
> 
> Have you ever ordered an espresso in a restaurant after a meal? I've been doing it for years, and almost every shot is completely nasty. Cold, bitter, sour, I've probably done it in a hundred restaurants and %90 are horrible. I'm certain this is the same experience of most people here. Logic says that restaurants wouldnt be able to keep selling coffee if it was so bad, but they do. And it is awful. Maybe it's because it is usually mixed with milk and sugar just like Illy at home.
> 
> Anyway, please try some different beans, freshly roasted whole beans from a roaster we all know. If I'm wrong and your coffee is still not good then at least we will have eliminated one giant variable.


I couldn't resist trying another tin to check if my new good results with the Starbucks beans - which was also exactly when I started weighing my shots and following some other advice here - would translate back to the Illy. Sadly not.

I've ordered some Rave signature blend now.


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## MWJB

Kroyne said:


> Thanks. I tried finer but choked the machine. I will try again. No problem wasting these beans away before trying something else.


Then go back coarser & pull a longer shot.


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## Kroyne

MWJB said:


> Then go back coarser & pull a longer shot.


I have done this too at various grind settings aiming for a 1:3 ratio every time. This is what is producing the consistently nasty coffee - generally on the sour side.

I am willing to wait to try the results with the Rave signature blend. Until then, I am having fun with a new Lido 2, french press and a Coffee Factory single origin.


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## Kroyne

I decided to give it another whirl with the Coffee Factory single origin beans again. Three doubles, horrid results every time.

Is there any good reason the much darker Starbucks beans might have given the best (by far) of the three I have tried? As I said, I am willing to wait for the Rave signature blend beans, let them rest then test the results, but I do wonder if something else is up.


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## MWJB

Kroyne said:


> I have done this too at various grind settings aiming for a 1:3 ratio every time. This is what is producing the consistently nasty coffee - generally on the sour side.
> 
> I am willing to wait to try the results with the Rave signature blend. Until then, I am having fun with a new Lido 2, french press and a Coffee Factory single origin.


If your shots are 1:3 every time, they are not any longer. If your shots are sour you are not putting enough water through them, or not grinding fine enough. Go back to the setting that gave the least sourness at 1:3, then pull at 1:4.


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## Kroyne

MWJB said:


> If your shots are 1:3 every time, they are not any longer. If your shots are sour you are not putting enough water through them, or not grinding fine enough. Go back to the setting that gave the least sourness at 1:3, then pull at 1:4.


Ah, I see. If I get the same results with the Rave beans at 1:3, I will try that.

I find it hard to believe I am not grinding fine enough given that I have started at a level which is choking the machine then very gradually ground coarser and coarser, stopping at 1:3 then tasting the shot.

Is water temperature a factor which could explain why the very dark beans worked better?


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## Missy

How long is it taking you to get your 1:3 out? That's also a factor (eg if you do that in ten seconds that's very different to two minutes)

Asking as earlier you referenced a fine grind choking the machine.


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## Kroyne

Missy said:


> How long is it taking you to get your 1:3 out? That's also a factor (eg if you do that in ten seconds that's very different to two minutes)
> 
> Asking as earlier you referenced a fine grind choking the machine.


Generally 30-35s, including pre-infusion.

Today I started at a grind setting which just dribbled a tiny amount, dropping about 8g in 30s. I discarded it. I adjusted one full notch coarser, got 1:3 in 30-35s.


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## Banjoman

Kroyne said:


> Ah, I see. If I get the same results with the Rave beans at 1:3, I will try that.
> 
> I find it hard to believe I am not grinding fine enough given that I have started at a level which is choking the machine then very gradually ground coarser and coarser, stopping at 1:3 then tasting the shot.
> 
> Is water temperature a factor which could explain why the very dark beans worked better?


Yes, dark beans I have found are a bit more forgiving generally, and also will give a good result at a lower temperature than lighter roasts.

But as others have said, time your shots and let us know those timings. You should expect your pre-infusion (i.e. before the drops start to come out) to take around 10 - 12 seconds, and your whole shot to take 30 - 40 seconds (i.e. including the pre-infusion 10 - 12 seconds), for a 1:2 shot, and given that you're going for 1:3, it could take up to around 50 seconds. If the times are shorter than that then you need to grind finer; if the times are much longer then grind a bit coarser. Hope that helps.


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## pedg

Good Afternoon @Kroyne

As an ex DTP owner/operator, I feel your pain for sure.

I've glossed through this thread, and understand you have tried Illy and Starbucks beans and been advised not to -GOOD Advise. I also understand you are trying a 1:3 brew ratio (ish) and a struggling to get consistently acceptable results. I experimented for a very long time, eventually settling on a formula that was getting me good enough results, consistently. However, I was quite limited in the beans I could use to get these results, all else being as equal as possible.

Firstly



Kroyne said:


> ...I find it hard to believe I am not grinding fine enough given that I have started at a level which is choking the machine then very gradually ground coarser and coarser, stopping at 1:3 then tasting the shot.


Here you are finding the limits of the DTP. You will be able to produce 1:3 or even 1:2, but you will need a darker roast to do it and get good results.



Kroyne said:


> Is water temperature a factor which could explain why the very dark beans worked better?


Darker beans are roasted for longer (obviously), therefore are more soluble (usually) as the cellular structure has been broken down more. This means that they extract easier, requiring less consistency (both temperature and pressure) from the machine to produce an acceptable cup.

I found that one particular dark-roast been worked very well in the DTP down to about 1:2.5 ish, any less than that it would choke, as you mentioned.

http://www.theblendingroom.co.uk/shop/docker/

The DTP is not a particularly temperature or pressure stable machine (compared to say, a mid-range dual boiler or commercial machine). This makes it particularly challenging to get consistent results. If you go to lighter, more challenging roasts, almost impossible. I spent a LONG time experimenting with this machine and just couldn't make light roasts work, but did manage to get consistently acceptable results from the dark roast I have copied you above.

Also I found that FRESHLY roasted beans worked much better on this machine. I'd use them as fresh as I could get them. This explains why your Illy, which have likely been sitting on a supermarket shelf for weeks, didn't work very well. If you order from the blending room, put in the notes you want a fresh bag and he will send some roasted the same day or previous day. If he hasn't got any that fresh and you request it, he will roast some to order.

I was using a Mazzer Mini grinder with the DTP (still am).


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## Banjoman

Kroyne said:


> Generally 30-35s, including pre-infusion.
> 
> Today I started at a grind setting which just dribbled a tiny amount, dropping about 8g in 30s. I discarded it. I adjusted one full notch coarser, got 1:3 in 30-35s.


Thanks for the timings - that helps. I'm using a DTP too. I would say 1:3 in 30 - 35 secs is still a bit too quick. I would expect 30 - 40 secs for a 1:2 shot. You should be expecting more like 50 secs for a 1:3 shot. I think your grind is not quite fine enough. But quality beans will help hugely, and your beans may be a large part of the taste problem.


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## Kroyne

Banjoman said:


> Thanks for the timings - that helps. I'm using a DTP too. I would say 1:3 in 30 - 35 secs is still a bit too quick. I would expect 30 - 40 secs for a 1:2 shot. You should be expecting more like 50 secs for a 1:3 shot. I think your grind is not quite fine enough. But quality beans will help hugely, and your beans may be a large part of the taste problem.


I've been upwards of 35s too, maybe a max of 42s. I've been stopping based on the weight though. I'm letting the scales "catch up" with the actual weight and allowing the last couple of drops drip into the cup, but the time I am recording is the time between switching on and switching off.


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## MWJB

Kroyne said:


> Ah, I see. If I get the same results with the Rave beans at 1:3, I will try that.
> 
> I find it hard to believe I am not grinding fine enough given that I have started at a level which is choking the machine then very gradually ground coarser and coarser, stopping at 1:3 then tasting the shot.
> 
> Is water temperature a factor which could explain why the very dark beans worked better?


Brew ratio vs grind are the biggest drivers. Sort these first, then fine tune if needed. If you are flushing with PF in, after turning the machine on, then another, quick, few second flush before fitting the loaded PF, your temp should be consistent enough to give consistent extractions.


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## Kroyne

pedg said:


> Good Afternoon @Kroyne
> 
> As an ex DTP owner/operator, I feel your pain for sure.
> 
> I've glossed through this thread, and understand you have tried Illy and Starbucks beans and been advised not to -GOOD Advise. I also understand you are trying a 1:3 brew ratio (ish) and a struggling to get consistently acceptable results. I experimented for a very long time, eventually settling on a formula that was getting me good enough results, consistently. However, I was quite limited in the beans I could use to get these results, all else being as equal as possible.
> 
> Firstly
> 
> Here you are finding the limits of the DTP. You will be able to produce 1:3 or even 1:2, but you will need a darker roast to do it and get good results.
> 
> Darker beans are roasted for longer (obviously), therefore are more soluble (usually) as the cellular structure has been broken down more. This means that they extract easier, requiring less consistency (both temperature and pressure) from the machine to produce an acceptable cup.
> 
> I found that one particular dark-roast been worked very well in the DTP down to about 1:2.5 ish, any less than that it would choke, as you mentioned.
> 
> http://www.theblendingroom.co.uk/shop/docker/
> 
> The DTP is not a particularly temperature or pressure stable machine (compared to say, a mid-range dual boiler or commercial machine). This makes it particularly challenging to get consistent results. If you go to lighter, more challenging roasts, almost impossible. I spent a LONG time experimenting with this machine and just couldn't make light roasts work, but did manage to get consistently acceptable results from the dark roast I have copied you above.
> 
> Also I found that FRESHLY roasted beans worked much better on this machine. I'd use them as fresh as I could get them. This explains why your Illy, which have likely been sitting on a supermarket shelf for weeks, didn't work very well. If you order from the blending room, put in the notes you want a fresh bag and he will send some roasted the same day or previous day. If he hasn't got any that fresh and you request it, he will roast some to order.
> 
> I was using a Mazzer Mini grinder with the DTP (still am).


Thanks for all this.

Certainly the very dark roast I tried was not bad at all.

I have a kilo of Rave signature blend coming, more than enough for a bit of experimentation immediately and after letting the beans rest! I do think I should have opted for one of their darker roasts though.


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## Kroyne

MWJB said:


> Brew ratio vs grind are the biggest drivers. Sort these first, then fine tune if needed. If you are flushing with PF in, after turning the machine on, then another, quick, few second flush before fitting the loaded PF, your temp should be consistent enough to give consistent extractions.


I'm flushing with the portafilter held underneath, through the portafilter into a cup to warm that. I flush enough to fill the cup - so about 90ml I think. Then I wipe the portafilter dry with a cloth, grind, tamp, empty the cup and pull the shot. I am not doing a second flush.

My extractions are certainly consistent.


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## Kroyne

I managed to swap the Signature blend for Chatswood and have tried today after five days rest, with the same results as with the Illy and a few other coffees now, with the one exception being the very dark Starbucks roast.


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## MWJB

Kroyne said:


> I managed to swap the Signature blend for Chatswood and have tried today after five days rest, with the same results as with the Illy and a few other coffees now, with the one exception being the very dark Starbucks roast.


You will get pretty much the same results if you do the same things every time to make your shot. What have you changed in terms of dose, grind setting & ratio?


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## ashcroc

Kroyne said:


> I managed to swap the Signature blend for Chatswood and have tried today after five days rest, with the same results as with the Illy and a few other coffees now, with the one exception being the very dark Starbucks roast.


Coffee Compass do some very nice darker roasted coffee. Might be worth giving them a try.


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## Kroyne

MWJB said:


> You will get pretty much the same results if you do the same things every time to make your shot. What have you changed in terms of dose, grind setting & ratio?


I have ranged the dose from 15g to 19g, but mostly stayed at 17g and varied the grind setting to hit a 1:3 brew ratio. The grind setting with these beans ranged from 3C (3 being on the fine end of the 1-31 scale) which resulted in a more than 1 minute shot before the machine cut off with the poured coffee closer to a 1:2 ratio. I tried settings 3C, 4C, 5C, 6C and 7C, 7C being the coarsest I tried. This setting gave a 1:3 ratio in just under 30s with a 17g dose.

I think I previous mentioned I also tried all this with the dual-walled baskets, for which I ranged between about 5C all the way up to about 20C, which is coarser than recommended even for drip, and also pre-ground coffee, and got the same bad results each time.


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## MWJB

Kroyne said:


> I have ranged the dose from 15g to 19g, but mostly stayed at 17g and varied the grind setting to hit a 1:3 brew ratio. The grind setting with these beans ranged from 3C (3 being on the fine end of the 1-31 scale) which resulted in a more than 1 minute shot before the machine cut off with the poured coffee closer to a 1:2 ratio. I tried settings 3C, 4C, 5C, 6C and 7C, 7C being the coarsest I tried. This setting gave a 1:3 ratio in just under 30s with a 17g dose.
> 
> I think I previous mentioned I also tried all this with the dual-walled baskets, for which I ranged between about 5C all the way up to about 20C, which is coarser than recommended even for drip, and also pre-ground coffee, and got the same bad results each time.


There's no need to stick to 17g. The basket will take more. You only need to use a smaller dose if your shot needs to be smaller (45g instead of 57g).

Go back to 19g, maybe 20g if it will fit without the Razor touching the puck.

Why are you sticking to 1:3. Try 1:4 (19.0g in, 76g out), it may be a little weak, but see if the flavour improves.

15-19g in 1 g increments is 4 dose weights, times 6 grind settings...plus the shots you made up to 20C. That's a lot of shots to be unhappy with. Why not report back on each shot one by one (grind setting, weight out, length of time you run the pump for, taste after allowing it to cool & finishing the shot if you can) leave a bit of time between coffees so you have time to reflect on what might be wrong.


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## Banjoman

Just a note on Rave beans - my understanding is that they advise that the beans reach some kind of 'maturity' at day 10, rather than any earlier, because of the type of roaster they use. I have tried from day 6 but have found they do seem to acquire more flavour by day 10.

Another suggestion: I know you're trying to limit the number of variables, but I wonder whether you should try standardising on a 1:2 ratio rather than your 1:3 ratio? I just wonder whether you might get a little more strength in the shot, and also limit the possibility of over-extraction.


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## MWJB

Banjoman said:


> I just wonder whether you might get a little more strength in the shot, and also limit the possibility of over-extraction.


Over-extraction at 1:4 with beans stopped before 2nd crack isn't terrifically likely, the shorter ratio of 1:2 will make it harder to get past sourness too.


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## Kroyne

MWJB said:


> There's no need to stick to 17g. The basket will take more. You only need to use a smaller dose if your shot needs to be smaller (45g instead of 57g).
> 
> Go back to 19g, maybe 20g if it will fit without the Razor touching the puck.
> 
> Why are you sticking to 1:3. Try 1:4 (19.0g in, 76g out), it may be a little weak, but see if the flavour improves.
> 
> 15-19g in 1 g increments is 4 dose weights, times 6 grind settings...plus the shots you made up to 20C. That's a lot of shots to be unhappy with. Why not report back on each shot one by one (grind setting, weight out, length of time you run the pump for, taste after allowing it to cool & finishing the shot if you can) leave a bit of time between coffees so you have time to reflect on what might be wrong.


I've not used the razor for a while now, but I'd say 20g won't fit in a volume that would be untouched by the razor if used.

I stuck with 1:3 so I could focus on varying the other variables (grind setting, dose). However, I will try 1:4 tomorrow. I might need a bigger cup! I may take a video of some of the process.

I was reading some other threads and found the one linked below, with the second part of post #68 really chiming with my experience. The thread seemed to end before the issue was resolved though, and I can see no other updates by the same forum member relating to this. I am not necessarily concerned that channeling is my problem, given that my results were okay with one particular bean, though obviously I don't really know what is going wrong. However, I would be interested to know how this story ended.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?30080-Sage-DTP-channelling&p=400222#post400222


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## MWJB

Kroyne said:


> I've not used the razor for a while now, but I'd say 20g won't fit in a volume that would be untouched by the razor if used.
> 
> I stuck with 1:3 so I could focus on varying the other variables (grind setting, dose). However, I will try 1:4 tomorrow. I might need a bigger cup! I may take a video of some of the process.
> 
> I was reading some other threads and found the one linked below, with the second part of post #68 really chiming with my experience. The thread seemed to end before the issue was resolved though, and I can see no other updates by the same forum member relating to this. I am not necessarily concerned that channeling is my problem, given that my results were okay with one particular bean, though obviously I don't really know what is going wrong. However, I would be interested to know how this story ended.
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?30080-Sage-DTP-channelling&p=400222#post400222


Don't worry about someone else's story, concentrate on your own.

Don't use the Razor as Sage suggest, after tamping, just gently place it in the PF & see if it touches the puck but don't screw up the puck with it.


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## Kroyne

After similar results at 1:4, I have returned to the dark Starbucks beans and am immediately enjoying good shots again.

I will try the Blending Room beans recommended by pedg in the near future, given the similarity of our experiences, and perhaps then the Coffee Compass recommendation depending on those results.

Thanks for everyone's contributions.


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## jimbocz

If I'm understanding what finally happened correctly, you did end up ordering some beans from Rave and didn't find them any better than Illy? And the only coffee you've actually liked is Starbucks?

Learn something new every day. Perhaps I won't give someone else the same advice next time.


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## pedg

jimbocz said:


> If I'm understanding what finally happened correctly, you did end up ordering some beans from Rave and didn't find them any better than Illy? And the only coffee you've actually liked is Starbucks?
> 
> Learn something new every day. Perhaps I won't give someone else the same advice next time.


I think whats happened is that the Rave beans were too light for the DTP, and the Illy ones too old, both resulting in unpalatable coffee from this machine. I can verify, from experience, that the DTP isn't really up to lighter roasts, and nothing really works with old beans.

The starbucks ones however, being dark roasted, are more suitable for this machine, therefore give the best results. I used to use the Blending Room 'Docker', which is a dark (but not charcoal) roast, and this was the only one I could get working well with the DTP.

Im sure if Kroyne was using an LR and a Mythos 1, he would think very differently about the Rave and Starbucks beans.


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## MWJB

pedg said:


> I think whats happened is that the Rave beans were too light for the DTP, and the Illy ones too old, both resulting in unpalatable coffee from this machine. I can verify, from experience, that the DTP isn't really up to lighter roasts, and nothing really works with old beans.
> 
> The starbucks ones however, being dark roasted, are more suitable for this machine, therefore give the best results. I used to use the Blending Room 'Docker', which is a dark (but not charcoal) roast, and this was the only one I could get working well with the DTP.
> 
> Im sure if Kroyne was using an LR and a Mythos 1, he would think very differently about the Rave and Starbucks beans.


DTP works fine with light roasts, even filter roasts, you just have to adjust your expectations with regards to brew ratio (maybe not if you have a grinder that goes very fine). Medium espresso roasts might not extract that differently from Illy wholebean (certainly the Yirg).


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## Kroyne

pedg said:


> I think whats happened is that the Rave beans were too light for the DTP, and the Illy ones too old, both resulting in unpalatable coffee from this machine. I can verify, from experience, that the DTP isn't really up to lighter roasts, and nothing really works with old beans.
> 
> The starbucks ones however, being dark roasted, are more suitable for this machine, therefore give the best results. I used to use the Blending Room 'Docker', which is a dark (but not charcoal) roast, and this was the only one I could get working well with the DTP.
> 
> Im sure if Kroyne was using an LR and a Mythos 1, he would think very differently about the Rave and Starbucks beans.


Yes, I hope so.

I'm considering this machine a stopgap until I have more kitchen space.

I've tried close to every conceivable setting aiming for a 1:3 ratio with Illy and Rave beans (with a good few 1:2 and some 1:4 thrown in too) in terms of combination of dose and grind setting, and had nothing but sour shots. Or, if I grind fine enough, I clog the machine. Not willing to waste any more time or coffee trying lower and lower ratios, I made a decision to keep the machine but stick only to darker roasts, which have consistently produced good results for me.

I will report back when I try the Blending Room beans.


----------



## pedg

Kroyne said:


> Yes, I hope so.
> 
> I'm considering this machine a stopgap until I have more kitchen space.
> 
> I've tried close to every conceivable setting aiming for a 1:3 ratio with Illy and Rave beans (with a good few 1:2 and some 1:4 thrown in too) in terms of combination of dose and grind setting, and had nothing but sour shots. Or, if I grind fine enough, I clog the machine. Not willing to waste any more time or coffee trying lower and lower ratios, I made a decision to keep the machine but stick only to darker roasts, which have consistently produced good results for me.
> 
> I will report back when I try the Blending Room beans.


This is exactly my experience with the DTP.


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## ajohn

Kroyne said:


> Yes, I hope so.
> 
> I'm considering this machine a stopgap until I have more kitchen space.
> 
> I've tried close to every conceivable setting aiming for a 1:3 ratio with Illy and Rave beans (with a good few 1:2 and some 1:4 thrown in too) in terms of combination of dose and grind setting, and had nothing but sour shots. Or, if I grind fine enough, I clog the machine. Not willing to waste any more time or coffee trying lower and lower ratios, I made a decision to keep the machine but stick only to darker roasts, which have consistently produced good results for me.
> 
> I will report back when I try the Blending Room beans.


When you say you have tried ratio's of up to 1:4 where those 1:4 over 30 sec or your 1:2 extended in time to give 1:4 ?

John

-


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## Kroyne

ajohn said:


> When you say you have tried ratio's of up to 1:4 where those 1:4 over 30 sec or your 1:2 extended in time to give 1:4 ?
> 
> John
> 
> -


Both.


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## joey24dirt

MWJB said:


> DTP works fine with light roasts, even filter roasts, you just have to adjust your expectations with regards to brew ratio (maybe not if you have a grinder that goes very fine). Medium espresso roasts might not extract that differently from Illy wholebean (certainly the Yirg).


I'll 2nd this. I only try to use light roasts with my DTP and it produces great shots, both visually and taste wise. It just takes a little more care to get them right


----------

