# Unable to get a drinkable shot



## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi all,

Apologies for asking a question which I can only assume has been done to death.

I'm a complete beginner and I've got my new setup (Rocket Appartamento and Mignon grinder) but am really struggling with getting a good shot.

So I've spent time getting the grind to what I believe to be espresso quality.

I have a scales - it's not a 0.1 gram specifically for coffee but just a good quality general household digital scales.

So I'm weighing 18g into my double PF.

De-clumping and levelling as best I can with my finger and getting the grounds level in the basket.

Then tamping.

Cooling flush, insert PF then brew.

I'm getting the first appearance of coffee coming from the PF spouts after around 7 secs - both spouts at the same time.

Then around 55-60mls (2oz) in around 27secs in total from first pulling the lever.

The resultant shots have been consistently terrible - I mean I can barely take a sip before dumping it.

The puck looks fairly OK - maybe a little wet but it comes out in one knock.

What I can't figure out is if the timings seem to be reasonably correct and the final quantity in the cup is correct how can the taste be so terrible?

I can't seem to get the lovely syrupy, reddish brown flow like I was hoping for.

The shot seems very dark, watery and not great crema.









Could the beans be a possible cause - I mean they are fresh (roast date 24th Oct) but even as I grind them into my PF they smell acidic.

I'm tempted to try another bean just to see if it makes a difference.

Any advice on where I should go from here?

Many thanks,

Joe


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Where did you get the beans from? And what type of roast are they?

You imply they taste acidic. Usually acidic means they can be under extracted, whereas bitter is when the temp is too hot, and sour the water is too cold.

How long do you leave your machine to warm up?

Have you tried it without a cooling flush to see what it tastes like?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

What are the beans?

I would be looking for around 34g in the cup at 30s From 18g

You are going to have to give the weight in the cup, not volume, and grab some scales suitable for measuring 0.1g. There have been a few thread on scales recently.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Oh, and do you usually like to drink espresso?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

firstly, get yourself some 0.1g scales, you ca get them for ~£5. if you're only measuring to 1g then you can be getting a very big variance in weight between each shot.

time is ball park in the right area but time isn't a good metric to go on, it can be anywhere from 20s to 60s depending on so many different things.

you say it tastes bad, in what way? if very bitter you may need to grind coarser, or if sour you might need to go finer.

bean is unlikely to be the problem if from a reputable roaster as it's fresh, but let's eliminate other problems 1st before considering that.

it's a very steep learning curve to begin with, hang in there and we'll help you out









trick is to get some of the basics right and then start to refine things, weigh the yield as well (the amount of coffee out), how much are you aiming for?

do any shots taste better than others?

how are you tamping and distributing?

to de-clump you can grind into a cup and use a fork or toothpick.

lot's of things to consider.

would suggest posting a video so we can see what you're up to, it's the best/quickest way to help


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Where are you based?

I would recommend some from of training to assist you on getting the machine and grinder dialled in.

A second palate is very useful when you have new kit.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Scales > weigh in and out

Dose need to be to 0.1g sorry . 1g aint gonna rock it .

There is no espresso grind quality by eye, only what produces a great shot .

There is no correct time either

Sense check the beans , what are they ? What's the roast date?

You shot is dark and watery probably due to having too much volume made ( again should be adjusting by weight ) , don't rule out poor beans , or not fresh , or both.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi MediumRoastSteam,

The beans were shipped with the machine as a little freebie. They are from a well known supplier with a good reputation who have a roastery. I don't want to namesdrop as it's not fair to them.

They are a dark roast.

I did imply that they are acidic but my pallet is poor on this so I'm not sure whether I'm getting bitter or sour notes - all I know is that it's not palletable compared to espresso's that I'd get when at a coffee shop.

I leave the machine for about 20 mins and check that the group head it red hot to touch.

I haven't tried without a cooling flush yet.

Thanks,

Joe


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi MildredM,

They are from the supplier of the machine - a dark roast from their own roastery.

I agree - I need to get an accurate scales and go by weight rather than volume - I'll start having a look around.

Yep I love to drink espresso - that's my only coffee drink....but good point!

Cheers,

Joe


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi Phobic,

Yes I've come to the realisation now that I do need an accurate 0.1g scales - and to take weight rather then volume.

I think that's my next move.

I'm struggling with bitter vs sour ... my pallet must be poor.

I have varied the grind coarseness/fineness and written down the results (i.e. grinder dial setting, secs and volume in cup).

I think I might go through this again.

I grind straight into the PF basket.

I've tried using a cocktail stick at this point to rake it through and tapping the side also to level.

I also then tried levelling and declumping with my finger.

I think the videos might be a good idea - might not get to do this until the weekend when I'll have more time and a clear run at it.

Thanks again for your help.

Joe


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi Glenn,

I'm in Ireland.

Would you believe I actually was about to book a one day barista course that's available a few hrs drive from me but said I'd wait and see how I cope myself first.

Hmmmm, I might consider it again.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If's it dark roasted and and that volume it will be i suspect over extracted and bitter.

If in doubt dilute a little and taste again .


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi Mrboots2u,

Yeah I think I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and get the scales.

Beans are from the supplier that I bought the machine from - a dark roast (roasted 24th Oct).

Thanks for your suggestions.

I didn't consider too much output volume - might try lowering that too.

Cheers,

Joe


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@JoeF, I had a Rocket HX before. In my opinion, 20m warm up from cold is not long enough.

Try leaving it on for 40 mins, cool flush it and see if there's a difference.

Good luck with it, and let us know the results.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

JoeF said:


> Hi Mrboots2u,
> 
> Yeah I think I'm gonna have to bite the bullet and get the scales.
> 
> ...


While waiting for the scales they and grind finer and aim for 1.5 fl ounces as best you can .

Note time , taste , anywhere between 25-35 ish second will be fine .

Report back .


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Thanks MediumRoastSteam,

I'll try that - I found an old 24hr timer plug so I'll start using it to turn it on earlier.


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Cheers Mrboots2u,

I'll try out your suggestion and get back.


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Scales ordered


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

OK,

So I had a bit of time this evening to go at some shot testing again.

While I'm waiting on the 0.1g scales to arrive I used the current scales I have which is 1g accuracy.

Results are still bad :-(

18g dosed into the PF double basket each time.

All were, to the best of my untrained pallet, very sour.

The last shot (no. 7) was possibly the least sour but still not good.

I've included a photo of the dial on the Mignon for the grind settings I dialled in.

Shot 1

Dial setting#1, 33 secs, 32g

Shot 2 (finer grind)

Dial setting#0.5, waited 25 secs but nothing from the PF spouts so stopped the shot (0g).

Shot 3 (coarser grind)

Dial setting#0.75, 35 secs, 41g

Shot 4 (coarser grind)

Dial setting#1.25, 20 secs, 40g

Shot 5 (finer grind)

Dial setting#1, 24 secs, 36g

Shot 6 (same grind setting)

Dial setting#1, 23 secs, 42g

Shot 7 (finer grind)

Dial setting#0.75, 34 sec, 41 g

I had to weigh the output after stopping the shot and removing the cup as my scales doesn't do automatic weighing - so I couldn't get an exact output amount each time as the crema made it hard to stop at say exactly 40ml (1.5floz).

I'll do some more testing when the scales arrives.

View attachment 30036


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## Leoluo (Apr 21, 2017)

If I compare shot1 5 and 6 it looks like you have a noticeable dispersion in the results. That can easily be dose difference or tamping/channeling

also, do you purge the grinder between shot. I'll do you make sure that you remove the coffee left in the grinder from the previous grind setting?


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## Densven (Sep 10, 2013)

It may also come down to preference. Yours and what the roast degree prefers. What I mean by that is that I always found a darker roasted coffee tastes better when made a slightly more traditional way. So trying 14 grams of coffee in and extracting 60mls in about 25sec.

Trying something completely different to what you are currently doing can sometimes surprise you or confirm you were nearer to where you should have been. You may find a 16gr shot is actually best..?!?


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Tanks Leoluo,

I agree - I may need to focus on getting my tamp more consistent as this might be the cause of some of my issues.

Although on these shots I did notice 5-10 secs delay after starting the shot before appearance of the extraction and even pour from both spouts.

I ground out a full PF basket each time I changed the grind setting - is this enough or should I empty out more?

Joe


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi Densven,

Yes, I think I'll reduce my dose next like you say.

I might try similar test shots then again to compare.

After that I might buy a small bag of Illy beans.

Thanks,

Joe


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## d_lash (Aug 30, 2014)

Things to worry about first: distribution in the portafilter (all the way down, not just the top) and the consequent evenness of the extraction (need a bottomless portafilter to easily judge this unfortunately), temperature of the water, freshness of beans and whether they suit your palate. Things to worry about less at the moment: the precise dose, the precise ratio, the precise timing, the tamping pressure. These things do affect the shot but if your extraction is uneven or the water is too cool you'll never win by fiddling with them. Might be worth letting the shot cool a little before tasting it too. A wise man from these parts once advised 60C as the ideal drinking temp, I believe.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Get beans you know you like. Buy a bag from a coffee shop you like going to, at least then you'll know what you're aiming for.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

JoeF said:


> OK,
> 
> So I had a bit of time this evening to go at some shot testing again.
> 
> ...


Stop dosing into the PF, grind into a cup/pot, give it a shake then transfer to PF.

Try as per shot 7, but pull longer, try 54g-ish.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

@JoeF

Getting as even an extraction as possible will help you immensely -

In the portafilter basket I used to perform WDT with a paperclip/cocktail stick, then do two flat perfectly dead knocks on the counter top, finally I would make sure the surface layer of the espresso grinds were as level as possible before tamping.

Obviously there's a lot of information swirling around in this thread, but generally, when getting a new coffee (from a decent roaster at least 7-10 days after roasting) I will apply the following process to rough out a decent shot:

Static variables:

Dose: 18g

Output: 36g

Time: This is what alters in accordance to grind coarseness/fineness, so I will go up in 5 second segments from 20 seconds to 35 or 40 seconds.

Try and give your machine a few minutes between shots and ensure that you purge about 5g from your Mignon once you have moved to a new grind setting otherwise you will have a grind with a mixture of particle sizes from the previous setting.

I hope this helps!!


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi Beanosaurus,

I should have the 0.1g scales today so I'll be able to get an accurate dose and output - and as you mention I'll keep these static.

I was looking at a few videos clips of the WDT distribution method so I have a yoghurt pot washed out and ready to be used for this and a bamboo skewer.

Thanks for your help on this


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Consistency is key! Happy brewing.


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

We have a result!!!

Ok, so here's what I did today.

Picked up a bag of Lavazza Qualita Rossa beans from Tesco.

The scales also arrived so I said I'd have a go again this evening.

I dosed out 18g and using the cut yoghurt pot and a cocktail stick did WDT to distribute the grounds in the basket and break up any clumps.

Shot#1: 36g output in 44s

Shot#2: 36g output in 31s (coarser grind)

Oh my God! Both were absolutely yummy (I actually drank both cups so I probably won't sleep tonight with the caffeine levels).

Straight away I could see a difference in the colour and thick consistency coming from the spouts.

The crema was really thick too - like whipped cream.

So, in the end, personally I think the beans were possibly the biggest issue - these Lavazza ones are a medium roast whereas the others were dark.

I'll have more time between now and the weekend to fine tune more but the difference between just these two shots and all the others before is like night and day.

Thank you all for your help and patience in getting me my first (drinkable) espresso!


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## eddie57 (Mar 21, 2017)

Good to hear you're getting somewhere keep it up.


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Well done! I'm a couple of weeks in (although I haven't been at home all this week) and you're way ahead of me. I now have scales and a cup that'll fit with them on the drip tray, so I'm itching to get home to spend some time going through the same more scientific process...

My hunch is that as well as my shot weights being all over the place, my distribution is poor. So I've also invested in a distribution tool to try in the short term to make that at least consistent.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

@JoeF You have had the 'breakthrough', this is great news but this also means you're in trouble, because you will be soon afflicted by 'upgraditis'!!


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

MildredM said:


> What are the beans?
> 
> I would be looking for around 34g in the cup at 30s From 18g
> 
> You are going to have to give the weight in the cup, not volume, and grab some scales suitable for measuring 0.1g. There have been a few thread on scales recently.


Yeah, reasonable scales are certanly cheap enough these days. Amazon and Ebay will get you a 3kg max weight in 0.1 gms for less than a tenner, delivered.

What are your water specifications? You can check on your water company website, or you can buy a water testing kit for absolute certainty.

We have terrible water here. All our drinks quality improved noticeably when we started using a Brita filter.


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi LukeT

yeah I think the scales really helped me with consistency in the dose and output.

Im still distributing using WDT method as my grinder clumps quite a lot.

Still it's only a small extra step to have to do.

I think my tamp pressure is probably a bit inconsistent at the moment as I'm still learning so that's my next thing to focus on.

Good luck with the distribution tool.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

JoeF said:


> We have a result!!!
> 
> Ok, so here's what I did today.
> 
> ...


That experience should tell you that the taste of various beans varies enormously. The Lavazza will be a blend and designed to purely have a coffee taste. There are variations on even that but far more variation is available in fresh roasted arabica beans from the various suppliers. I've tried 4 different types so far and 2 blends. They all have distinctively different tastes, some have gone into the bin. The nearest to what some one might expect from a coffee bean was Jamaican Blue Mountain - not surprising really as it's thought to be the most well balanced bean of the lot. In it's case it was the after taste where that was most apparent.

There is no need to be rigid about shot ratio's either. Your free to do what you like to try and make a particular bean suitable for you. Some beans are way stronger than others as well. I have some of these beans to try and having quickly tried some before allowing them to age a bit I can well understand why the poster does what he did to a shot.of it.







It also has the weirdest taste I have experienced to far.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?41022-Back-in-the-Java-Jampit-seat

I also have a slightly lighter roast of my favourite bean so far to try. I expect to have to use more of it but only time will tell. The taste will be different too.

John

-


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

Thanks John

Yeah I never realised how much variation there are in beans until now.

Im going to try some Java Republic next once the Lavazza are gone.

I might even go back to the original beans I had the brewing issues with again once I have more practice and confidence under my belt.

Ive started up a little notebook for recording the brew recipes and what beans I'm using.

So much to consider and still to learn but I'm enjoying it!


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

For info - in case anyone is interested here's a link to the scales I got.

Have to say it's a great little scales considering how cheap it was - it's really compact too so fits on the drip tray no problem when brewing.

It does a max weight of 3kg also which means I can tare the portafilter on it.


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## LukeT (Aug 6, 2017)

Same scales here too. With these and cups that fit I'm finally in proper control of when to stop the shot, and can produce something that's a recognisable espresso!


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## Mr Kirk (Oct 5, 2017)

They're the same scales I have and have been fine for me.


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## JoeF (Jul 18, 2017)

I'm a few weeks in now so just by way of a quick update...

Despite having better shots from the Lavazza beans that I bought (at least compared to the original beans I used) I still wasn't overly impressed by the taste....they weren't anything like the espresso you would get in a local cafe.

I also noticed that they had a terrible crema - it was too thick and left a horrible scum on the cup.

So, as suggested by another member on the forum here I went to a local cafe that also sells 1kg bags of roasted wholebeans.

I got an espresso from them (of the same beans they sell) and really liked it so bought a bag.

They're Java Republic Munkey Espresso sold here in Ireland (a dark roast bean).

The difference was incredible - the very first shot I pulled when I got them was amazing - it was the rich, creamy texture and taste that I've been after.

I see now what you guys meant by the Lavazza beans being generic "coffee" taste.

The problem now is that I've gone and ruined myself with the nicer beans as they are much more expensive - but the taste is in the cup!

Best of all the place that sells them is only 5 mins down the road from me.

So for anyone else starting out on this journey and like me was having no luck in getting a tasty cuppa - along with the great advice on dosing, weighing, grind size, shot time etc. - don't assume that all beans are going to be to your taste.

I made that mistake (twice) but happily have now found ones that I really enjoy.


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