# Which machine?



## jomo (Jun 16, 2015)

Hi everyone,

At the minute I have a built-in Siemens bean to cup machine which John Lewis have agreed to exchange for me as it in unable to heat milk to an acceptable level. I've never been particularly happy with the coffee it produces either. Anyway, I quite like the look of the Sage machines they stock. At first I thought I'd exchange it for the Barista Express and have the difference refunded but after reading more into it, a lot of people are saying the grinder isn't really up to the job so now I'm leaning more to the Dual Boiler and a separate grinder. Would this be a better option than the Oracle as I presume it's grinder may not be as good as a separate one? On the other hand would these machines be overkill for someone who only make a couple of drinks per day (normally latte)? I pretty new to this so any help would be greatly appreciated.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I only make two drinks per day for myself, my kit is over £3k, read into that what you will...

If you can afford it, yes get the dual boiler and a decent grinder to pair it with, the grinder is the tricky part though.

How much do you have after buying the dual boiler for the grinder, does it have to be new, does it have to fit in to a certain style of kitchen?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The oracle is a great automated machine ( dosing , taming and milk are great ) . It's week point " in the cup " is the grinder

So its about compromise - do you want to put some time and effort in making coffee with a seperate grinder and machine , with potential greater tasty rewards

Or have a simple coffee making experience possibly at the expense of some nuances taste wise..

Is it you that will use this machine or other people ?

Does learning to be a home barista appeal to you ?


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## jomo (Jun 16, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> I only make two drinks per day for myself, my kit is over £3k, read into that what you will...
> 
> If you can afford it, yes get the dual boiler and a decent grinder to pair it with, the grinder is the tricky part though.
> 
> How much do you have after buying the dual boiler for the grinder, does it have to be new, does it have to fit in to a certain style of kitchen?


I'll have almost 100 pounds left over if I exchange for the Dual Boiler plus just now it comes with a free Smart Grinder Pro which I'd probably stick on Ebay. I'd be willing to put more to it without going overboard. How much should I be looking to spend on a suitable grinder for this machine? The machine and grinder are probably going to be kept in a kitchen larder unit so the look doesn't matter too much. I would prefer the grinder to be reasonably compact right enough.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

So with the cash and money from your ebay sale you should have about £250, i would look to get another £100 on top of this.

This puts in the new mignon area, or second hand mazzer, both will do a decent enough job, but i think the mignon may be more suited to you, its easy enough to just load up and grind straight into the portafilter, the mazzer will require some mods and may be too much faff.

Its all down to how much time you want to put into making a drink?


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Two thumbs up for SDB. Of course I would say that as I own one and we all go for a little bit of self validation don't we? There are a number of very well respected members here, people who really know their coffee and technique who have the SDB as their home machine. Definitely pair it with a grinder better than the Smart Grinder though. Breville/Sage haven't really hit their stride with grinders yet. Mignon is very popular here and very compact so if size or appearance is an issue in your home it is probably best pick in that ballpark from new.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

*There are a number of very well respected members here, people who really know their coffee and technique who have the SDB as their home machine. *

Bet you anything you like, there are a lot more well respected members who do not have a Sage DB anywhere near their house!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Well duh!!


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

*dfk41*I hope you dont mind me pointing out your signature is not correct, it is often misquoted.

It's "You're only supposed to blow the bloody doors off!"


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

You say that your current machine doesnt heat milk to an acceptable level. Are you looking to boil the milk ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> *There are a number of very well respected members here, people who really know their coffee and technique who have the SDB as their home machine. *
> 
> Bet you anything you like, there are a lot more well respected members who do not have a Sage DB anywhere near their house!


Sageist........


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## jomo (Jun 16, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> The oracle is a great automated machine ( dosing , taming and milk are great ) . It's week point " in the cup " is the grinder
> 
> So its about compromise - do you want to put some time and effort in making coffee with a seperate grinder and machine , with potential greater tasty rewards
> 
> ...


Yes, I read your excellent review and the Oracle does look like a great machine.

I can see the benefit to both options so not 100% sure at the minute. Is the grinder on the Oracle the same as on the Barista Express?

It will probably be just me using the machine as my other half likes her drinks prepared for her









It is beginning to appeal to me, especially if I'll achieve better results after some practice.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> *There are a number of very well respected members here, people who really know their coffee and who have the SDB as their home machine. *
> 
> Bet you anything you like, there are a lot more well respected members who do not have a Sage DB anywhere near their house!


Sure there are other choices, no doubt about that. The SDB is not a bad choice. Good enough for Gary, good enough for me.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Too many buttons for Dfk i am sure.


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## jomo (Jun 16, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> So with the cash and money from your ebay sale you should have about £250, i would look to get another £100 on top of this.
> 
> This puts in the new mignon area, or second hand mazzer, both will do a decent enough job, but i think the mignon may be more suited to you, its easy enough to just load up and grind straight into the portafilter, the mazzer will require some mods and may be too much faff.
> 
> Its all down to how much time you want to put into making a drink?


Ok, I did have a figure of around £350 to £400 pounds for a decent grinder although I could maybe stretch to a little more.

I have had a quick look at the mignon after seeing it mentioned on here and like the look of it. With regards to the mazzer, is that that the mini you're talking about? If so, what modifications would need done to it and is it worth the extra money and hassle. Oh, and do you think the mignon would produce much better results than the grinders on the Oracle and Express?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ridland said:


> Sure there are other choices, no doubt about that. The SDB is not a bad choice. Good enough for Gary, good enough for me.


It is a bit of an assumption that you both qualify as well respected members of the forum.......of course, others may disagree with me.......I am sure many will object to you labelling Gary like that as well, but hey ho!


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## jomo (Jun 16, 2015)

ridland said:


> Two thumbs up for SDB. Of course I would say that as I own one and we all go for a little bit of self validation don't we? There are a number of very well respected members here, people who really know their coffee and technique who have the SDB as their home machine. Definitely pair it with a grinder better than the Smart Grinder though. Breville/Sage haven't really hit their stride with grinders yet. Mignon is very popular here and very compact so if size or appearance is an issue in your home it is probably best pick in that ballpark from new.


Haha, we do indeed! Ok, that's good to know. To be honest, if the Sage grinders were any good I would have been very tempted just to go for the Barista Express as I'll probably only be making a couple of drinks per day. Yes, I've noticed the Mignon's popularity on here and like the look of it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Too many buttons for Dfk i am sure.


cheeky...I had one for two days before I sent it back as not fit for purpose. What purpose......making coffee with Jampit. it absolutely butchered it!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Me, i would look at something like the Compak K3 Touch over the mignon.

The Mazzers have never really done it for me, sure they are great grinders for the price, i just don't like the look of them.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> cheeky...I had one for two days before I sent it back as not fit for purpose. What purpose......making coffee with Jampit. it absolutely butchered it!


How far are you from Coffeechap? He offers training.


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## jomo (Jun 16, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> *There are a number of very well respected members here, people who really know their coffee and technique who have the SDB as their home machine. *
> 
> Bet you anything you like, there are a lot more well respected members who do not have a Sage DB anywhere near their house!


Haha, I'm not really a betting man







I need to get the machine from John Lewis and the Sage ones seem to be the best on offer.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jomo, in fariness, for the position you are in, you will not do better than a Sage DB. it is quite capable. learn your craft. Pair it with as good a grinder as you can muster, and away you go


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## jomo (Jun 16, 2015)

working dog said:


> You say that your current machine doesnt heat milk to an acceptable level. Are you looking to boil the milk ?


Haha no, the machine I have can only heat the milk by around 40 degrees Celsius.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> *There are a number of very well respected members here, people who really know their coffee and technique who have the SDB as their home machine. *
> 
> Bet you anything you like, there are a lot more well respected members who do not have a Sage DB anywhere near their house!


argumentum ad infinitum. LOL


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> cheeky...I had one for two days before I sent it back as not fit for purpose. What purpose......making coffee with Jampit. it absolutely butchered it!


It did?

Or you did?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You picked on the wrong person to say that to. I have probably had 59 kilos of Jampit. I know the bean like the back of my hand. If I had meant to suggest I had butchered it, I would have said that.

Now, run along and do your homework and tomorrow we will try joined up writing


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> You picked on the wrong person to say that to. I have probably had 59 kilos of Jampit. I know the bean like the back of my hand. If I had meant to suggest I had butchered it, I would have said that.
> 
> Now, run along and do your homework and tomorrow we will try joined up writing


BOOM. Schooled.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> It is a bit of an assumption that you both qualify as well respected members of the forum.......of course, others may disagree with me.......I am sure many will object to you labelling Gary like that as well, but hey ho!


You inferred something which I never implied concerning my own standing in the forum. I'm a kakk handed amateur and would never pretend otherwise. I do believe that Gary is well respected though and stand behind that statement.

I'm happy with my SDB. It produces very drinkable coffee despite all my worst efforts. Maybe a L1 or a Vesuvius would produce more nuanced coffee but I don't think I'm ready for those yet. I'm just not that skilled.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ridland said:


> You inferred something which I never implied concerning my own standing in the forum. I'm a kakk handed amateur and would never pretend otherwise. I do believe that Gary is well respected though and stand behind that statement.
> 
> I'm happy with my SDB. It produces very drinkable coffee despite all my worst efforts. Maybe a L1 or a Vesuvius would produce more nuanced coffee but I don't think I'm ready for those yet. I'm just not that skilled.


I think my tongue was in my cheek when I said that......when it is feeding time at the zoo, you can either wait and queue or go to the front and take what you want!


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> You picked on the wrong person to say that to. I have probably had 59 kilos of Jampit. I know the bean like the back of my hand. If I had meant to suggest I had butchered it, I would have said that.
> 
> Now, run along and do your homework and tomorrow we will try joined up writing


I was looking forward to trying Jampit but now wonder if I wouldn't be wasting those beans. Was the output drinkable but not up to your high standards? Or were they all sink shots?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> You picked on the wrong person to say that to. I have probably had 59 kilos of Jampit. I know the bean like the back of my hand. If I had meant to suggest I had butchered it, I would have said that.
> 
> Now, run along and do your homework and tomorrow we will try joined up writing


Oh. Ok. I'd always made it a rule to give less than zero credibility to anything that you type.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Let me expand. With Jampit, using a good grinder and a lever, the way I enjoy it is to get the pour gloopy and a short shot.On the Sage, no matter what I did, the basic taste was just not right. I used a Mythos once against a K10 with Jampit on a lever, and the k10 gave an earthy, dark taste whereas the Mythos produced a much lighter, almost floral note. It was not seasoned properly but even so, the difference in taste was staggering.

So, rightly or wrongly, I presumed the Sage would never take me down into the dark depths I like. I know Gary bangs on and is delighted to use his but mainly on lighter beans than I use. I am sure it is very capable and since you are not coming from a lot of time spent with levers, then I am sure you will enjoy it Andrew. Don't let me put you off,just because it did not suit me!


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I think my tongue was in my cheek when I said that......when it is feeding time at the zoo, you can either wait and queue or go to the front and take what you want!


I did think that was the case but just in case.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jonc said:


> Oh. Ok. I'd always made it a rule to give less than zero credibility to anything that you type.


Have you got your shorts on boy?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Have you got your shorts on boy?


Unusually not. Especially foolish given the weather.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Let me expand. With Jampit, using a good grinder and a lever, the way I enjoy it is to get the pour gloopy and a short shot.On the Sage, no matter what I did, the basic taste was just not right. I used a Mythos once against a K10 with Jampit on a lever, and the k10 gave an earthy, dark taste whereas the Mythos produced a much lighter, almost floral note. It was not seasoned properly but even so, the difference in taste was staggering.
> 
> So, rightly or wrongly, I presumed the Sage would never take me down into the dark depths I like. I know Gary bangs on and is delighted to use his but mainly on lighter beans than I use. I am sure it is very capable and since you are not coming from a lot of time spent with levers, then I am sure you will enjoy it Andrew. Don't let me put you off,just because it did not suit me!


Thanks that is very helpful. I understand what you mean about the syrupy gloopiness. I get a bit of that for the first few seconds after the preinfusion phase but then it starts to gush towards the end of the shot. I was pulling ristrettos on my Classic but since moving to the SDB I have been using standard 1:2 ratio. I think I may go back to the ristretto when I try the Jampit. In your experience, who would you recommend I get Jampit beans from?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, if I said, jonc is fantastic, and then said jonc smells of dinosaur crap you would not have any problem with that because neither statement has any credibility......wow, this could go on for ages!


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Ahem, just FWIW on this whole Sage thing from another Sage owner here....

I LOVE MY SAGE. I need to open it up and dial back the pressure in the near future but it is a thing of beauty. Don't get any of the machines with the grinder on top, they warm up over the first 30 minutes and any attempts to dial in fail pitifully in my experience!

Milk is slow on even the dual boiler - but the milk is nigh perfect so unless you're running a store it's no big deal.

Get the DB and don't look back IMO









I only drink EKspresso so I'll not say anything about grinders here.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ridland said:


> Thanks that is very helpful. I understand what you mean about the syrupy gloopiness.  I get a bit of that for the first few seconds after the preinfusion phase but then it starts to gush towards the end of the shot. I was pulling ristrettos on my Classic but since moving to the SDB I have been using standard 1:2 ratio. I think I may go back to the ristretto when I try the Jampit. In your experience, who would you recommend I get Jampit beans from?


I always buy mine from coffee compass, but, i have to admit 2 things. The first is they do a couple of pretty amazing mahogany roasts blended with Jampit, and the second, have i mentioned JAVA LINGTONG!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I have probably had 59 kilos of Jampit. I know the bean like the back of my hand.


You do know there are a lot of other beans out there, yes?


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

jonc said:


> Oh. Ok. I'd always made it a rule to give less than zero credibility to anything that you type.


(Channeling my inner Rodney King) Can't we all just get along?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> You do know there are a lot of other beans out there, yes?


I know froggy.....have been into coffee for many years........but........when you find something you like and can perfect it to your own taste, why waste time on other things......when I was in the dsol, I can honestly say only couple of offerings were ever to my taste, so why waste money


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ridland said:


> (Channeling my inner Rodney King) Can't we all just get along?


We do get along.....jonc is learning but he does not take me seriously. I give it out but I can take it.....anyone can say anything they like to me knowing I wilt be offended


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I know froggy.....have been into coffee for many years........but........when you find something you like and can perfect it to your own taste, why waste time on other things......when I was in the dsol, I can honestly say only couple of offerings were ever to my taste, so why waste money


Variety is the spice of life they say!

I have loved some beans, but i know full well if i keep on buying them, ill get sick of them.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

robashton said:


> Milk is slow on even the dual boiler - but the milk is nigh perfect so unless you're running a store it's no big deal.


have you tried upping the steam boiler temp? It makes it noticeably quicker


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

ridland said:


> Thanks that is very helpful. I understand what you mean about the syrupy gloopiness. I get a bit of that for the first few seconds after the preinfusion phase but then it starts to gush towards the end of the shot. I was pulling ristrettos on my Classic but since moving to the SDB I have been using standard 1:2 ratio. I think I may go back to the ristretto when I try the Jampit. In your experience, who would you recommend I get Jampit beans from?


'Gloop' is simply a reference to TDS . Extended pre infusion creates a quicker resulting pour (i.e. gushing) If you turn pre infusion off you'll get an initial fine migration at the start of the shot and it will pour slower .

This means nothing in terms of extraction yield .

Preinfusion = grind finer = extract higher.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> We do get along.....jonc is learning but he does not take me seriously. I give it out but I can take it.....anyone can say anything they like to me knowing I wilt be offended


I don't take him seriously. This is true.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jonc said:


> I don't take him seriously. This is true.


I think the feeling is mutual


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> have you tried upping the steam boiler temp? It makes it noticeably quicker


Yeah - it makes it quicker but when you've played on a commercial machine there is a vast difference still









That said - it means it's also very forgiving as you haven't got to get all the air in in the first second or two.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

robashton said:


> Yeah - it makes it quicker but when you've played on a commercial machine there is a vast difference still
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're not going to be able to compete with the boiler sizes on commercial machines.

The milk texture is better IMO


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

inclined to agree RE milk texture; just makes it a bitch when you're practising for the latte art smackdown on the DB and then suddenly you're on a strada and all bets are off..


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## Drusy (Sep 8, 2015)

Whats wrong with the smart Grinder Pro?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Drusy said:


> Whats wrong with the smart Grinder Pro?


There are far more capable grinders available, especially if you're open to second hand ones for around the same value as a brand new Smart Grinder Pro costs.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Drusy said:


> Whats wrong with the smart Grinder Pro?


I think it depends a bit what your hopes are for your coffee. They give it away free with the DB so should give you an idea is not the best. I found it was very clumpy when trying to get a fine grind and I wasn't happy with results. So I sold it and got much higher end grinder. No harm in trying it to see what you think apart from if you wanted to sell it as unused and put the money towards something better. I didn't use with a Sage DB though


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

The free grinder via leaflet redemption is also the older (BCG800UK and not newer BCG820UK) model.


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## Drusy (Sep 8, 2015)

Thanks for advice, but I'll try it before I upgrade - looking forward to improvement to illy pre-ground coffee which is much better than Nespresso was...


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## Donx22 (Mar 26, 2016)

So the wife wants the barista express. I'm trying to persuade her into a espresso machine and separate grinder. Thus will be our first proper machine instead of a cheap delonghi and pre ground beans. Will the Express make a good coffee and is there any difference in the dial temp and express machines apart from the grinder?

my worry is we get this to save space (tiny kitchen) and not be able to get the grind right are there any good small grids I ca pair with a decent espresso machine


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