# Best machines for £1000



## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Hey all,

So, a month back into manual espresso and the bug has bitten, hard. It's amazing just how much better brewing your own is, RIP highstreet coffee.

Anyway,

I have a budget of around 1k. Narrowed my next machine down to:

Rocket Appartmento (or a 2nd hand evo/R58)

Vibiemme Domobar Junior Dual Boiler

Expobar Office Leva

So yes I like shiny, guages and knobs.

Is there anything else I should be considering or does anyone have any advice on the above machines?

I like the aesthetics of the rocket best but the others win on features for the cash. I predominantly make espresso but at least one flat white per day and like entertaining friends and fam so I understand the greater stability of a dual boiler is probably favourable?

TIA


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Not fancy going from your DTP up to the sage dual boiler?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> Not fancy going from your DTP up to the sage dual boiler?


Nah mate, I LOVE the simplicity of the DTP and it looks good but the Sage DB just doesn't do it for me verses shiny Italian and E61


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I get that. The expobar and rocket do look the business. Hopefully you don't upgrade before getting to try the naked pf lol, or are you planning to keep the DTP?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> I get that. The expobar and rocket do look the business. Hopefully you don't upgrade before getting to try the naked pf lol, or are you planning to keep the DTP?


No fear, I'll be using the DTP plenty. Upgrade planned for Christmas time. Ho ho ho.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@igm45 is this the Lelit you have?

https://www.thecoffeemate.co.uk/p/espresso-coffee-machine-lelit-mara/?gclid=CLyXhcGMqNYCFRMTGwodUcIOFQ

Maybe another to add to the list...


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @igm45 is this the Lelit you have?
> 
> https://www.thecoffeemate.co.uk/p/espresso-coffee-machine-lelit-mara/?gclid=CLyXhcGMqNYCFRMTGwodUcIOFQ
> 
> Maybe another to add to the list...


Fundamentally, yes.

That is the entry model, I have the md version :

https://www.caterkwik.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=showprod_CK9730

Only difference is the shiny bit on the knobs and it comes with a wooden tamper and 2 portafilters.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Fundamentally, yes.
> 
> That is the entry model, I have the md version :
> 
> ...


Is this a HX or DB machine out of interest?


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

My habit is similar to yours. 1 with milk (first of the day) then the following 8 shots or thereabouts black.

But, my kids love latte, and occasional hot coco, so I went for a dual Boiler machine which can switch off the steam Boiler for majority of the day.

I might only be saving pennies in electricity, but it's greener and made sense to me to put it higher in the list of priorities.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

u2jewel said:


> My habit is similar to yours. 1 with milk (first of the day) then the following 8 shots or thereabouts black.
> 
> But, my kids love latte, and occasional hot coco, so I went for a dual Boiler machine which can switch off the steam Boiler for majority of the day.
> 
> I might only be saving pennies in electricity, but it's greener and made sense to me to put it higher in the list of priorities.


What have you got?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Fundamentally, yes.
> 
> That is the entry model, I have the md version :
> 
> ...


 @igm45 so your machine doesn't have a PID right? In operation does this mean you have to run cooling flushes? Any issues switching between shots and steam or vice versa?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@igm45 any more thoughts on the above Ian?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Apologies, on holiday at the moment.

No pid, I was leant a group head thermometer to test cooling flushes. It is really stable, just flush until the stream steadies.

You can steam as you pull the shot with no issues. Powerful steam. Overall it's a great little machine. The only thing I would upgrade to is a lever machine.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Apologies, on holiday at the moment.
> 
> No pid, I was leant a group head thermometer to test cooling flushes. It is really stable, just flush until the stream steadies.
> 
> You can steam as you pull the shot with no issues. Powerful steam. Overall it's a great little machine. The only thing I would upgrade to is a lever machine.


Thanks! Appreciate the reply!


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## Wardey (Sep 19, 2017)

I have a pocket apartemento. Excellent machine. Had a spaziale for shop and I love that too but home use this is spot on!


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## Wardey (Sep 19, 2017)

Rocket Not pocket lol although it is quite compact!!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Wardey said:


> I have a pocket apartemento. Excellent machine. Had a spaziale for shop and I love that too but home use this is spot on!


 @Wardey thanks for the reply. Any issues with repeatability of shots given it's a HX? Happy with how it performs?


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## Wardey (Sep 19, 2017)

Hi I don't have any problems with HX we can both drink around 4 cups each within an hour along with milk for my daughter's hot chocolate. Works fine for a home machine.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Wardey said:


> Hi I don't have any problems with HX we can both drink around 4 cups each within an hour along with milk for my daughter's hot chocolate. Works fine for a home machine.


Great. I LOVE the way it looks! So do I get an appartmento brand new or bide my time waiting for a second-hand R58 or similar... Decisions decisions lol


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Revisiting this thread as the back end of the year approaches.

I've narrowed down my search to the Rocket Appartmento or the Bezzera Unica I think, both are around that £1000 price point, although I'm gutted I missed the unica for sale on here recently, but anyway... Some thoughts:

Unica:

- Made by Bezzera, real absence of UK stockists but the brand has heritage

- Is a single boiler dual use, so I would have to raise boiler temp for steam and purge it to go back to shots. This isn't a deal breaker for me as I drink mainly espressos

- PID controlled for shot temp stability

- Steam arm has a joystick

- No hot water arm

Appartmento:

- Made by Rocket so wins the aesthetics competition for me

- Is a heat exchanger, so I could steam and pull shots simultaneously, but this means cooling flushes and less stability

- Hot water arm

- Around ~£200 more expensive

Both are E61 and seem to be rated by users, but are there any other machines around this price point I'm missing out on considering? What would you choose between the two above?


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I had a Vibiemme single boiler for a while. Sold it and bought a Rocket HX. Still seriously tempted by the Vibiemme dual boilers, Junior and Senior.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ATZ said:


> Revisiting this thread as the back end of the year approaches.
> 
> I've narrowed down my search to the Rocket Appartmento or the Bezzera Unica I think, both are around that £1000 price point, although I'm gutted I missed the unica for sale on here recently, but anyway... Some thoughts:
> 
> ...


I was determined to get a Bezzera Unica as an upgrade from a Gaggia Classic. Went to Bella Barista, tried it out and I must say, I didn't get on with it. The steam is really wet, and you need to purge quite a bit of water out of the steam wand in order to steam it. If you don't mind the Cooling Flush routine of an HX machine, I'd go with a rocket.

Unless of course you mainly drink non-milk based drinks. Well, that was my case, until I bought an HX machine and subsequently a dual boiler.

Hope that helps.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I was determined to get a Bezzera Unica as an upgrade from a Gaggia Classic. Went to Bella Barista, tried it out and I must say, I didn't get on with it. The steam is really wet, and you need to purge quite a bit of water out of the steam wand in order to steam it. If you don't mind the Cooling Flush routine of an HX machine, I'd go with a rocket.
> 
> Unless of course you mainly drink non-milk based drinks. Well, that was my case, until I bought an HX machine and subsequently a dual boiler.
> 
> Hope that helps.


That's really useful, cheers.

Unfortunately BB no longer stock any Bezzera so I dont have the luxury of testing.

I've seen in vids some purging for steam is necessary but it then seems powerful once up to temp. This not the case in practice?

What HX did you go for instead?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Rob666 said:


> I had a Vibiemme single boiler for a while. Sold it and bought a Rocket HX. Still seriously tempted by the Vibiemme dual boilers, Junior and Senior.


Which are you on Rob?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ATZ said:


> That's really useful, cheers.
> 
> Unfortunately BB no longer stock any Bezzera so I dont have the luxury of testing.
> 
> ...


This was over 2 years ago. At the time, I went for a Rocket Cellini. Couldn't get on with cooling flushes and using bottled water on my machine. I now have a Pro-700.

Make sure your budget includes a grinder too.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> This was over 2 years ago. At the time, I went for a Rocket Cellini. Couldn't get on with cooling flushes and using bottled water on my machine. I now have a Pro-700.
> 
> Make sure your budget includes a grinder too.


Thankfully I'm on the softest of soft water here so that's not an issue.

Already have a decent grinder - super jolly modded to doserless. Oh and a Niche on order for sometime next year.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@MediumRoastSteam was the unica as good looking in the flesh as it looks on vids etc?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ATZ said:


> @MediumRoastSteam was the unica as good looking in the flesh as it looks on vids etc?


The machine looks good, small and compact. I did not like how one switches from brew mode to steam mode via the PID display. I could see it would not be a good idea to keep doing that twice a day on a daily basis for sure. A simple toggle switch would've been better in my opinion.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ATZ said:


> Thankfully I'm on the softest of soft water here so that's not an issue.
> 
> Already have a decent grinder - super jolly modded to doserless. Oh and a Niche on order for sometime next year.


Just saw this post, am just finishing up testing a Lelit Mara for BB...they will be getting them in very soon (before christmas) a few base models and the next model up. I think the pricing for the next model up is likely to be exceptional (well I know it is), however whether it will just be for the first batch or whether they can hold Lelit down I don't know. *My review will be published soon so keep and eye out for it and If I remember, I can update this thread with the review link..*

*
*


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

@DavecUK The Mara is a heat exchanger with a PID? What does the PID control the temperature of?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

fatboyslim said:


> @DavecUK The Mara is a heat exchanger with a PID? What does the PID control the temperature of?


This interests me too as I was under the impression PID on a HX doesn't do much.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

fatboyslim said:


> @DavecUK The Mara is a heat exchanger with a PID? What does the PID control the temperature of?


I have had a Lelit Mara for 6 months now. I've loved it, yet again we all love our own kit so I'm interested to see how Dave has got on.

There are 3 Mara models actually:

Lelit Mara PL62S - base model. Missing chrome knobs and doesn't come with as many extras.

Lelit Mara PL62 - my model, has chrome knobs and extras.

Lelit Mara PL62T - my model with PID. I didn't go for this option as like you lot, was told that it's pointless on a hx.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

igm45 said:


> I have had a Lelit Mara for 6 months now. I've loved it, yet again we all love our own kit so I'm interested to see how Dave has got on.
> 
> There are 3 Mara models actually:
> 
> ...


What are we talking about when it comes to cooling flush before pulling a shot?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

fatboyslim said:


> What are we talking about when it comes to cooling flush before pulling a shot?


 @kennyboy993 kindly lent me his grouphead thermometer for this purpose.

Once flushed I found it to be very stable. A few seconds flush, probably around 150ml of water.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Just saw this post, am just finishing up testing a Lelit Mara for BB...they will be getting them in very soon (before christmas) a few base models and the next model up. I think the pricing for the next model up is likely to be exceptional (well I know it is), however whether it will just be for the first batch or whether they can hold Lelit down I don't know. *My review will be published soon so keep and eye out for it and If I remember, I can update this thread with the review link..*
> 
> *
> *


I look forward to reading the review.

Out of interest re: pricing I purchased from another UK stockist. Their first batch was very reasonably priced, after which it increased itro £250


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

fatboyslim said:


> @DavecUK The Mara is a heat exchanger with a PID? What does the PID control the temperature of?


There are 3 different models, the most expensive has a PID. The PID controls the temperature of the steam boiler...think of the PID as being as useful as roller blades in a muddy field on an HX machine.....in fact less so if it's programmed to act as a PID, because steaming will be weaker....or what was the point of having a PID. I wouldn't bother buying an HX with a PID unless that was the only model a company did...I certainly wouldn't pay more for a PID on an HX.

It's also why proper dual loop independent parameter PIDs are so important on dual boiler machines (because we don't want to PID the steam boiler with brew boiler parameters do we).


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> There are 3 different models, the most expensive has a PID. The PID controls the temperature of the steam boiler...think of the PID as being as useful as roller blades in a muddy field on an HX machine.....in fact less so if it's programmed to act as a PID, because steaming will be weaker....or what was the point of having a PID. I wouldn't bother buying an HX with a PID unless that was the only model a company did...I certainly wouldn't pay more for a PID on an HX.
> 
> It's also why proper dual loop independent parameter PIDs are so important on dual boiler machines (because we don't want to PID the steam boiler with brew boiler parameters do we).


So not all dual boiler machines have independent parameter PIDs Dave? Any well known ones on here that don't?


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

I have a dual boiler. There's a switch to turn off the steam boiler if not needed.

I drink black 95% of the time. So most of the time, steam boiler is switched off. The 5% accounts for the following.. A) when guests request it (and I don't get many) B) even though I don't like milk drinks particularly, I sometimes force it upon myself for calcium intake and latte art practice C) making hot chocolate (this the whole family likes)

Long story short, with my steamer being used so seldom, I now realise that I would have been as happy with a SBDU machine. The 2 minutes or so needed to raise the temp, I could easily utilise by cleaning out the portafilter, going to get the milk etc..

Hot water wand? I've never used it as intended. I only use it to drain the steam boiler.

I'm not sure how often you make milk drinks, but if it's as rarely as myself, definitely go with SBDU rather than HX, and as mentioned above, Bezzera Unica looks nice, so do the Lelit Dave is reviewing. I'd also throw in ECM Classica PID as a contender.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> So not all dual boiler machines have independent parameter PIDs Dave? Any well known ones on here that don't?


The Verona does, the Profitec 700 and 300 do not. I'll don't think the R58 has it either.


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

Sorry, totally lost.. What's independent parameter (with regards to PID)?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

u2jewel said:


> Sorry, totally lost.. What's independent parameter (with regards to PID)?


Different and independent PID parameters for the brew and steam boilers.


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Different and independent PID parameters for the brew and steam boilers.


Ok thanks for the confirmation, it's what I thought it was.

I thought pro 700 had independent controllability?

(unless your post was in direct response to the original question, confirming that Verona doesn't and profitec does, a negative - negative )?

Until today, I believed that in profitec Machines you can set brew and stream temp independently..


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

u2jewel said:


> Ok thanks for the confirmation, it's what I thought it was.
> 
> I thought pro 700 had independent controllability?
> 
> ...


It's not the temp, it's the parameters of the PID, ie: the P, the I and the D values.


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's not the temp, it's the parameters of the PID, ie: the P, the I and the D values.


!! 

I'm wiser today than yesterday! Thanks for the info


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> So not all dual boiler machines have independent parameter PIDs Dave? Any well known ones on here that don't?


This *was* true of most if not all normal sub £2000 dual boiler PID machines. The Verona did (and hopefully still does) because I insisted on it, as any other way doesn't make sense, reduces steaming power and it not the correct way. *Of course manufacturers continue to update machines, so the best way is for people to feed back.*

The clue is not in whether it has T1 and T2 for brew and steam boilers, that's simply the ability to set 2 independent temperatures for the PID algorithm to achieve. It has to have P1 I1 D1 and P2 I2 D2, so separate parameters for each boiler and Ideally a B1 and B2 type parameter which is the band of temperature the PID algorithm operates as a PID. So for a steam boiler you want a very small B2 setting as you really don't want it operating like a PID much at all.

Trouble is people seem very taken by looks and brand....too much so, to take too much notice of comments I make in reviews about whether a technical feature it's important or not. It would be great if people were a little more interested on what's going on inside the machines. In fact I am changing my review style to contain a lot more video so I can cover internals and technical points better. You will see this on the Lelit Mara review when published, mainly because it competes very strongly with the Apartmento.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks Dave - I agree which is why I asked.

I remember reading how you rated the Verona due to things like this.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@DavecUK have you any thoughts or experience with Bezzera?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @DavecUK have you any thoughts or experience with Bezzera?


The reason I ask is that in this video:






The reviwer rates the Unica as giving a better extraction than the Lelit owing to temp stability


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I wish my wife could do better at reading technical grinder and coffee machine reviews... :-(


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

> The reason I ask is that in this video:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## tonerei (Aug 3, 2017)

I went for the Unica in the classifieds! Hope to get it next week god bless it! My heart was on a Quickmill Verona but cost wise it just is not in my budget now. Looking at some of the online videos steaming milk seems to be fairly successful on the Unica but definitely it is a pita compared to the dual boilers. Primarily espresso for me 99.99% of the time so not going to worry about it.

Dave for espresso and given the price of the unit and not withstanding the limitations compared to more expensive better designed units does it really matter having a small boiler? Is it not quicker to heat up for me who primarily is making 1 to 3 espresso's per sitting?

From my limited knowledge the Unica appears reasonably simple and sturdy design compared to some of the serious HX and DB machines.

Having said all the above it is obvious as in most things in life e.g SDS Drill. Buying expensive well designed products mean better results for a knowledgeable user.

One other query Dave the secondhand one I have bought has 'erics' thermo fitted to it. Is this yoke useful for getting accurate brewhead temps?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

They are on the website now:

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=Lelit

I look forward to the review Dave


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Well the Unica is a single boiler machine like the old Isomac Zafiro,m but using a PID for better temperature stability. Unfortunately the steam temperature is not so high only rising by 15C, according to Luca Bezzera in this video


Thanks @DavecUK really appreciate the reply.

The tech spec quotes the steam temp having a range of 100c - 120c but you probably know more than me on this side.

I primariky drink espressos and longer espresso based drinks so the faffing to get up to steam is not a deal breaker to me.

Also, from what I understand dropping the boiler back down to shot temp is just a case of purging the steam and pumping cold water back in, takes a minute or so.

Lack of hot water arm isn't a deal breaker either but then again would be good for Americanos and heating cups etc.

Anything other machines you think I should consider around this price point?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

igm45 said:


> They are on the website now:
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=Lelit
> 
> I look forward to the review Dave


 @igm45 hey Ian, do you find the manometer on the Lelit useful for dialling in?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

u2jewel said:


> I have a dual boiler. There's a switch to turn off the steam boiler if not needed.
> 
> I drink black 95% of the time. So most of the time, steam boiler is switched off. The 5% accounts for the following.. A) when guests request it (and I don't get many) B) even though I don't like milk drinks particularly, I sometimes force it upon myself for calcium intake and latte art practice C) making hot chocolate (this the whole family likes)
> 
> ...


 @u2jewel I forgot to ask, what do you have?

Although I suspect by the very fact it's 2B it's out of my price range.


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @u2jewel I forgot to ask, what do you have?
> 
> Although I suspect by the very fact it's 2B it's out of my price range.


ECM synchronika


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

I started off my addiction when I noticed the Sage wotsit had come down in price. One look at the Apartamento, though, and the build quality of the R2D2/Dalek technology coffee makers and I was off.

It was a close call. An Apartamento with a Mignon grinder is a very tempting combination for sensible money.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

u2jewel said:


> ECM synchronika


And now I wished I hasn't asked, lol!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

CardinalBiggles said:


> I started off my addiction when I noticed the Sage wotsit had come down in price. One look at the Apartamento, though, and the build quality of the R2D2/Dalek technology coffee makers and I was off.
> 
> It was a close call. An Apartamento with a Mignon grinder is a very tempting combination for sensible money.


All valid points and like you the rocket looks just keep drawing me in.

I totally get the spending just a little more but the funds just aren't there. Worse still BB are no longer stocking the Profi 300... sad face.


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @igm45 hey Ian, do you find the manometer on the Lelit useful for dialling in?


They are the most useless things that you do need, especially at times of problems.

An oxymoron.

When everything is fine, you don't look at them. But if something is not right, or you suspect something is wrong, without it you are more blind as to what is the situation.

For me it's like a plaster/band aid. I like to have it, but hope not to need it..


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

ATZ said:


> Revisiting this thread as the back end of the year approaches.
> 
> I've narrowed down my search to the Rocket Appartmento or the Bezzera Unica I think, both are around that £1000 price point, although I'm gutted I missed the unica for sale on here recently, but anyway... Some thoughts:
> 
> ...


I do like Bezzera; the Ferrari/Alfa of coffee machines! ? but as an organisation they just aren't into the UK. They are much more geared up to the Continent imho, and tge Middle Eadt! Look at their Italian web pages!! ?. I crossed them off my own list after researching servicing and repairs. And I would probably have had to order from the Continent.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If you also want a conversation piece maybe this one

http://www.fracino.com/classico.html

You could even download the parts lists and diagrams from the tech section. It takes as much as a 13amp plug can supply. The other approach to quick boiler heat up without using a small boiler - that should help keep the brew temperatures constant during a shot too. Also steam and brew at the same time.

The other one worth mentioning is the little gem. It has a more commercial sized boiler - 4L

Both are available discounted. I seriously wondered before buy the BE also befor buying the Piccino but I don't think that they come up used that often.

John

-


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

CardinalBiggles said:


> I do like Bezzera; the Ferrari/Alfa of coffee machines!  but as an organisation they just aren't into the UK. They are much more geared up to the Continent imho, and tge Middle Eadt! Look at their Italian web pages!! . I crossed them off my own list after researching servicing and repairs. And I would probably have had to order from the Continent.


Bella Barista stocked them until 2016. Now only UK box shifters do.


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

WOW! I'm surprised about the 300 going South at BB. They are very enthusiastic about the Heidelberger machines. (is there a new model on the way?)

If money really really is a limit, then imho the Expobar is a good honest machine at a really honest price. You won't be able to run Latte after latte at your next coffee party, but it IS dual boiler, IS priced for you, IS a very established brand, well supported in the UK by several suppliers, and I haven't heard an owner say a bad word about them. You gotta pay fir dem Double-D size Rocket dials, dude! ?


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

I took notice of this post because I felt some parallels in the decision process I went through.

"what's the most affordable and good value for money stainless steel espresso machine out there?" was my starting point.

Started looking at Lelit. Then I saw the e61(not knowing it was an e61 at the time) of Bezzera Unica. Looked more the business (to an utter Noobie)

Looked good, so started looking around which online shop stocked them, and that's when I met Bezzera Magica. Beautiful handles! Then if u stretched the budget a little, I could get Bezzera Mitica. Add a touch more and you get PID (and above posts explain why it's not so essential in an hx)

For a week, I sat on it. During this self-confirmation period, I met Rocket apartmento. I was flirting, but decided to stick with Bezzera.

Then I started to watch lots of whole latte love YouTube, and watching those 'how to repair' videos made me consider not just the pretty exterior but the interior also.

The well designed and clean internal layout of profitec caught my eye, and I was converted. Then I met the family member ECM.

I had my decision pegged on Mechanika or Technika. By this stage, mental upgraditis had gone rampant, and I couldn't look at the single boilers anymore..

Then I realised the price difference between Technika and profitec 700. Just an arms length away. Dual boiler it is then!

Until I saw the Synchronika, which was now spitting distance from the 700...

All this contemplating and mental upgraditis in the space of 2 months research..


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

u2jewel said:


> I took notice of this post because I felt some parallels in the decision process I went through.
> 
> "what's the most affordable and good value for money stainless steel espresso machine out there?" was my starting point.
> 
> ...


Haha, I feel like you're mapping out my future.

And accurately at that!

Lol


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## tonerei (Aug 3, 2017)

Looks like all the wannabee's take the same route. Toss a coin for the ECM or Quickmill DB's either would seem to be nirvana for most of us. There will always be something that is even better if you have the budget.

You guys are lucky.You have a good second hand market in the UK.We have nothing over here the market is too small.

If you keep your eyes open something will crop up and worst case you will have to drive a long distance to collect.

ATZ soz about the Unica will let you know what I think of it. You could try Elektros for one there pricing is good. But if I were you I would wait and on your budget go for the Expobar DB. You will probably pick one up for a £100-150 more than the Unica secondhand. Stretch to £1k and you will get a Rocket etc DB at some point.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

tonerei said:


> Looks like all the wannabee's take the same route. Toss a coin for the ECM or Quickmill DB's either would seem to be nirvana for most of us. There will always be something that is even better if you have the budget.
> 
> You guys are lucky.You have a good second hand market in the UK.We have nothing over here the market is too small.
> 
> ...


Hey @tonerei no worries, you win some you lose some on the second-hand market. I'll be very interested how you get on with it.

I've been lurking waiting for some second-hand DB machines on here and on ebay for the last 5 months, in that time very few have come up for sale to be honest. I actually don't mind buying new for the right machine and the guarantee should anything go wrong.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

ATZ said:


> Hey @tonerei no worries, you win some you lose some on the second-hand market. I'll be very interested how you get on with it.
> 
> I've been lurking waiting for some second-hand DB machines on here and on ebay for the last 5 months, in that time very few have come up for sale to be honest. I actually don't mind buying new for the right machine and the guarantee should anything go wrong.


I have been looking to no DB at a good price, I did see a Duetto 11 on ebay with grinder, and did speak to the guy not sure on value.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I am surprised that the Fracino forum doesn't see that much use on here. People worry about spares - no problem. They are essentially commercial machines as well. There would be a need to ask but it looks like the 2 I mentioned come with a flow meter and may use rotary pumps. From places like Nisbits they seem to even include training. Adding the push button electronics to them though really seems to up the price. Arm and a leg levels on the ones like the Gem. That one also has taller mug capabilities with a standard portafilters - the leaflet on these actually gives the figures. The rather poor manual also mentions heat up times. Both unusual things for makers to mention. Not sure if all will get up to temp in 15min though.

People talk about temperature surfing. Not done a silly sum before but from little use I haven't noticed this effect on the Piccino. Going on the time to steam it takes 180 sec to go +100C. Say the temperature drops by 5C as the brew thermostat cycles. A 5C reheat change comes out at 9 secs. A pretty approximate sum for several reasons but it practice it might even be quicker as the brew boiler is insulated. The steam boiler really does get the cup warmer tray hot. They appear to take brew water from a region close to the heating element. It looks like they add a pipe that doesn't appear to be there for any other reason. Probably also smooths out flow from the pump a bit which sounds much nicer than the one in a BE. Over pressure goes back into the tank - or seems to. The only reports I have seen is that the filter baskets are very good. They produce a full range of them even one that they hardly sell - so small it's probably for espresso drinkers that want to use very strong beans.

Downsides - probably need to fill the tanks with a jug. Only the Gem has 110mm mug clearance. They are not cheap machines but things like portafilters and baskets aren't that badly priced. They are likely to be fitted with a proper coffee machine filter. The one for the Piccino is £18 in the UK but much cheaper in some countries - the seller of a pack of 3 I found wouldn't sell to the UK. The makers reckon that it will cope with 100L of moderately hard water. Fracino seem to suggest 70L. It looks like the makers also produce bigger sizes with the same fitting. Descaling at home seems to be a problem on many models that do have a steam boiler. I'm not sure how the models I mentioned produce both at the same time.








I don't have any connection with the company but live in B'ham and was surprised that they are made here so looked further.







I do like the puff of steam that comes out of the Piccino when it reaches heat so am as bad as the OP really so maybe one day but maybe not. If I mod the Piccino it wont be PID, just an electronic thermostat with a lot less hysteresis. If PID is needed Ardunio code is available. I'm a design engineer by trade who spent the last 15 years working on safety critical software and electronics in part as the company didn't design anything else any more.







I decided to never ever write another line after I retired and that feeling may never go away. It might but I have my doubts.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I am surprised that the Fracino forum doesn't see that much use on here. People worry about spares - no problem. They are essentially commercial machines as well. There would be a need to ask but it looks like the 2 I mentioned come with a flow meter and may use rotary pumps. From places like Nisbits they seem to even include training. Adding the push button electronics to them though really seems to up the price. Arm and a leg levels on the ones like the Gem. That one also has taller mug capabilities with a standard portafilters - the leaflet on these actually gives the figures. The rather poor manual also mentions heat up times. Both unusual things for makers to mention. Not sure if all will get up to temp in 15min though.
> 
> People talk about temperature surfing. Not done a silly sum before but from little use I haven't noticed this effect on the Piccino. Going on the time to steam it takes 180 sec to go +100C. Say the temperature drops by 5C as the brew thermostat cycles. A 5C reheat change comes out at 9 secs. A pretty approximate sum for several reasons but it practice it might even be quicker as the brew boiler is insulated. The steam boiler really does get the cup warmer tray hot. They appear to take brew water from a region close to the heating element. It looks like they add a pipe that doesn't appear to be there for any other reason. Probably also smooths out flow from the pump a bit which sounds much nicer than the one in a BE. Over pressure goes back into the tank - or seems to. The only reports I have seen is that the filter baskets are very good. They produce a full range of them even one that they hardly sell - so small it's probably for espresso drinkers that want to use very strong beans.
> 
> -


I tested the Picino (extensively) on my equipment I am afraid my results were not the same as yours with respect to brew temperature and stability. Not a great machine for espresso drinkers.

They are no more commercial machines (the ones you mention, than the other prosumer stuff on here. Spares are no problem because they use the same standard generic set of components everyone else does and they don't make these components themselves more than any other manufacturer does. Like most others they pretty much make the cases surrounding the components and sometimes the boilers depending on the boiler type. With espresso machines there is a lot of myth and marketing, makes it very difficult for the consumer.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I tested the Picino (extensively) on my equipment I am afraid my results were not the same as yours with respect to brew temperature and stability. Not a great machine for espresso drinkers.
> 
> They are no more commercial machines (the ones you mention, than the other prosumer stuff on here. Spares are no problem because they use the same standard generic set of components everyone else does and they don't make these components themselves more than any other manufacturer does. Like most others they pretty much make the cases surrounding the components and sometimes the boilers depending on the boiler type. With espresso machines there is a lot of myth and marketing, makes it very difficult for the consumer.


I should have mentioned that I haven't used the machine that much but would have thought that I would have noticed surfing effects if they were pretty apparent. I really do notice minor changes to what goes in a single shot basket. The only equipment I use is taste. Perhaps you use more? There are people about who rather like the Piccino anyway. I wonder why?

Anyway what I was mainly pointing out is that for a machine of it's type it's pretty well thought out. Also that as a company they appear to offer more than some other do. Personally I would ask direct questions about those aspect I mentioned.

I would be surprised if they made switches, solenoids and thermostats. I'd be surprised if any espresso machine manufacturer does even Sage.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I should have mentioned that I haven't used the machine that much but would have thought that I would have noticed surfing effects if they were pretty apparent. I really do notice minor changes to what goes in a single shot basket. The only equipment I use is taste. Perhaps you use more? There are people about who rather like the Piccino anyway. I wonder why?
> 
> Anyway what I was mainly pointing out is that for a machine of it's type it's pretty well thought out. Also that as a company they appear to offer more than some other do. Personally I would ask direct questions about those aspect I mentioned.
> 
> ...


I use my version of a scace II, but I designed it around 10 or 11 years ago because I thought pulling brew temps out of my backside in reviews was not such a good idea, it's very accurate. Brew temps fluctuate far too much really and more than your 5C guess (temperature sensing seems to have a large dead-band) depending on when you pull the shot. You don't have a brew boiler heating light so temperature surfing is very very difficult. I can only guess that the people who like the Picino probably don't know too much about espresso machine physics or construction.

*Now the Picino PID (when it comes out) is actually very good for brew temperature if the PID is set up well and perhaps Fracino will set the PID exactly as I advised...or perhaps they won't. However the PID has to be set very conservatively because of the small brew boiler.*

How do you know it's pretty well thought out....I found a few issues I thought they should address to be honest.

As for your surprise if they made switches solenoids or thermostats...I t looked like pretty much the only thing they make is the case for the Piccino (perhaps the plastic water tank as well, not sure).

But hey........if people like the standard Picino, then they like it....I just try to tell it as it is, rather than how I would like it to be as an owner.

I know a few owners of another make of HX machine...who don't seem to have any complaints, but they must have the Hulks taste buds as all their espresso is basically pulled at 100C...however it's still sold and no one says anything.

I also have nothing against Fracino, it's a UK company and I like UK companies that manufacture stuff...I'm quite patriotic that way.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've worked as a D&D engineer for a very long time. It usually involves a new product or improving an existing one.







I bought the Piccino to improve for fun. Spare time determines when and if this will happen. First thing I always do is get to grips with what and why things are done as they are. I was a little surprised by the consistency. I use it just as many home users would, warm it up, flush it and run a shot. They might run another afterwards. To me that sort of explains things - initial conditions are very likely to be pretty constant. After all in the past many machine at all sort of levels didn't use anything more sophisticated in their machines just much larger boilers in some cases for ever increasing output rates but there are probably variations on that.

Then comes taste. Much more interesting. I also have a BE where things are a lot more controlled and it also has an infusion stage. I have managed to use the same grind and amount in both machines. Taste and strength differ. The BE has more of both. Increasing the coffee in the Piccino increases the strength but doesn't result in exactly the same taste. It seems to "infuse" via the initial flow off water being hotter. That doesn't mean that there is anything wrong with the taste. It's just different - pretty pleasant actually. I'd need a lot more use to go further. I only pull shots for me. The BE does it for 3. Even with it's control that still needs a flush for preheating mainly down to the portafilter. Plastic group head so little if any heat transfer.







I go ott on that and use a pressurised basket.

D&D is different to R&D as things always get made. Big problem cost wise if they aren't. It's unusual for companies that do make things to make all items needed for assembly. Some items need specialised equipment which can cost extreme amounts of money and need high volumes to justify their purchase. Differing skills may be needed too. People cost money. These days outsourcing parts for assembly is popular for all sorts of reasons so the actual source is more important really. I'd guess that they may make *some *boilers and probably don't make the tanks. The tank could have a handle added but the return pipe gets in the way. Sales volumes probably don't fit in with say a Sage type arrangement. It'd cost to much to produce unless the numbers were higher.

Even if a highly qualified control engineer does masses of sums it's not unusual for PID to have problems especially with the D. As I may have mentioned I want to try a simple bang bang control.hopefully actually sensing real water temperature. That aspect may prove difficult due to thermal lag and that will alter the amount of hysteresis needed.







No room to open the machine up at the moment to see what could be done to the boiler.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I just remembered I promised to post the link to my review of the Lelit Mara

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/

Guys be careful who you buy from....BB is obviously fine, but there is another company that made itself look like part of Lelit in the UK (it's not as Lelit don't do this) and it operates out of a mobile home park...the T&C, warranty terms etc.. ar also something to look very hard at, because as usual your warranty is with the retailer, not Lelit.

I don't know whether to put this or not, but what the hell....BB are having an open weekend this weekend and I think next weekend. I think that people visiting in person may get a benefits. Buy the PL62, it is the version I recommend you get because of the knobs and extra portafilter etc.. I could be wrong though...really sales activities are nothing to do with me....I just go "how much" when I get machines for review, because I am basically a tight git.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/

Enjoy and watch the Videos (educational and fun)...Spielberg would be proud and I am waiting for him to offer me a job.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Great review Dave, I now feel a bit smug about my choice


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I just remembered I promised to post the link to my review of the Lelit Mara
> 
> https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/
> 
> ...


Great view Dave and fantastic detail.

In the review you mention the Lelit has some premium features the Appartmento does not. Can you elaborate?


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

ATZ said:


> Bella Barista stocked them until 2016. Now only UK box shifters do.


I think these box shifter offerings are just grey imports direct from Italy. No support from the box shifters and send them back to Italy at your own risk and cost for repairs. There is a firm in Düsseldorf advertises the Bezerra and others on Ebay, but again, it's send the machine back by courier if it needs servicing.

Italian Engineering. Italian electronics. All next to Heat and Water! What could possibly go wrong! .

(These Jerries were the dudes advertising those Rocket 58 V2s as "new" btw. Imho they had to be a good 7 years old....)


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

CardinalBiggles said:


> I think these are just grey imports direct from Italy. No support from the box shifters and send them back to Italy at your own risk and cost for repairs. There is a firm in Düsseldorf advertises the Bezerra on Ebay, but again, it's send the machine back by courier if it needs servicing. Italian Engineering. Italian electronics. All next to Heat and Water! What could possibly go wrong! . (These were the dudes advertising those Rocket 58 V2s as "new" btw. Imho they had to be a good 7 years old....)


I did query the guarantee offered by Caffe Italia. Their reply

"In case of warranty issue, we will supply you parts or in the worst scenario where we are not able to solve the problem just replacing parts, products would be inspected in our UK service centre"

But this still leaves me a little uneasy. I'm more inclined to buy from Bella Barista with a 2 yr guarantee, bench testing and apparently legendary customer service.


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

ATZ said:


> I did query the guarantee offered by Caffe Italia. Their reply
> 
> "In case of warranty issue, we will supply you parts or in the worst scenario where we are not able to solve the problem just replacing parts, products would be inspected in our UK service centre"
> 
> But this still leaves me a little uneasy. I'm more inclined to buy from Bella Barista with a 2 yr guarantee, bench testing and apparently legendary customer service.


I have had several conversations with Caffè Italia, and they didn't impress me. They give me the impression of being a family business café with a back room internet sales. They didn't officially do the ECM range, which was my first red light, as imho ECM are very choosey when it comes to suppliers. They did the Profitec 700 though, but, for ECM, iirc it was a private email with prices they would not publish on the web. Pretty sure that would have been a machine from his brother-in-law's shop in Naples or wherever! ��

I suspect they had the Quickmill in stock, though, as they were pushing that one very hard. But checking it out it was a previous model! The BB Verona was not only better specc'd but also cheaper than the CI price.

The same with the Izzo Alessi - the only machine that made me think twice about ECM - they only had the old version with the poor cup height. BB had the full height version, and again, cheaper than CI.

There is a lot of money spent by individuals in this hobby, and it's exactly like a buying from a network of used car dealers. There are no bargains. You get exactly what you pay for. If something looks too good or very cheap there is a reason for it. Always. It's not made easier by the pound dropping quicker than Lucy Lastic's rip-cord operated drawers.....

There are some good guys, of course, and I would definitely put BB in that very small group of suppliers. I wasn't able to get to Northants, so I took my time and checked everything I was told (by everyone who quoted for my business) for independent confirmation. BB got 10/10. And yes, I'm very happy with my set up. If it wasn't so fekkin heavy I'd be cuddling my ECM upstairs in bed at nights..... ��


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I tested the Picino (extensively) on my equipment I am afraid my results were not the same as yours with respect to brew temperature and stability. Not a great machine for espresso drinkers.
> 
> They are no more commercial machines (the ones you mention, than the other prosumer stuff on here. Spares are no problem because they use the same standard generic set of components everyone else does and they don't make these components themselves more than any other manufacturer does. Like most others they pretty much make the cases surrounding the components and sometimes the boilers depending on the boiler type. With espresso machines there is a lot of myth and marketing, makes it very difficult for the consumer.


I think you will find that fracino actually make a lot of the components in house


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ATZ said:


> Great view Dave and fantastic detail.
> 
> In the review you mention the Lelit has some premium features the Appartmento does not. Can you elaborate?



Steam and Brew Pressure (only steam)

Insulated boilers (no)

Low Water Alarm - Won't stop shot halfway through (will stop shot part way through)

Detachable mains lead (fixed)

1500W heating element (1200WW)

Accurate electronic temperature control for steam boiler (Mechanical Pressurestat)

Better Water tank system that can't leak (water tank system can leak as it ages)

Audible Low water alarm (pretty sure it has no audible alarm)

Boiler sizes differ, but boiler alignment negates this Vertical in Lelit, Horizontal in Rocket - IMO Vertical is preferred in these applications

More compact Smaller in every dimension than Rocket

Extra Solenoid to de-pressurize brew circuit so manometer resets properly to 0


If you take the slightly cheaper PL62S, then it only comes with 1 portafilter and the knobs I don't like, the slightly more expensive PL62 is the sweet spot at the moment, because for 30 quid more it's the full polished case, 2 portafilters steel tamper etc..and then it's comparable to the Rocket accessories. As for No compression steam valves, can't remember but I think Rocket also has them, an Appartmento owner will I am sure chip in.

Now I got to be careful here, BB sells the Rocket of course...so they don't care, but from a technical standpoint the Lelit is actually superior. Espresso production will be the same on both machines if flushed down correctly and I think the rocket needs a bit more flushing and portafilters fit nicer on the Lelit. Usually people ignore all this stuff, because they are impressed by bling. e.g. the Vesuvius in the USA is imported with stainless steel pipework (an extra cost option), because people who don't really understand insisted on it. It pushes up the price and offers no advantage (apart from the ooohh factor on forums) over the VERY high quality PTFE tubing used in standard models. *In fact there are quite a few technical disadvantages in the Vesuvius to use stainless steel pipework*!

So people will probably go with what they feels looks nicest or what most people (usually owners) say is the better machine. As I always say...go look at reviews on the web, don't worry about how glossy the video production values are or professional the photos. LISTEN to what is being said, is it logical, does the reviewer actually know what they are talking about (some don't) and is it being reviewed for longer than an afternoon.Then go back and look at my crappy old videos and see what I say...because I do know what I am talking about and on a Video, you will get my raw impressions!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Steam and Brew Pressure (only steam)
> 
> Insulated boilers (no)
> 
> ...


Brilliant, thanks again.

The lelit is most definitely in the running now, weirdly I had considered it early on but discounted it owing to it being fairly new.

Your review and the videos especially have convinced me otherwise.

The only wildcard is that I may be able to get my hand on an ECM technika profi second hand at this price point. Everything I've seen of the videos on this machine oozes quality so it's a case of better machine second hand or a brand new cheaper machine with the 2yr warranty from BB.

Decisions, decisions


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Oh and I also wanted to add to the discussion about who you buy the machine from and some things you might not realise or perhaps need to consider:


Warranties are bought out and the warranty conditions can differ widely (especially if you have to pay to insure and ship it back, plus the risk is all yours), often warranties can be parts only or less than even 1 year

No coverage under distance selling regs if buying from Europe

Language barriers (who do you phone for advice, support or help)

If they have subcontracted warranty work to UK repairer, then how much incentive do they have compared to the a QUALITY Retailer Backed warranty with backup

The Manufacturer of the machine won't help you, they are bought out warranties

Does the reseller work out of a house, mobile home, caravan or lock up unit, or is it a proper bricks and mortar with it's own engineers and proper facilities

Is your item box shipped or properly inspected before shipping to you

Do they use the cheapest courier or the best, do they care. Is it packed appropriately and well to avoid damage, especially damage you can't see and becomes apparent a year or more later).

Does the retailer carry machine specific parts, how long will it take to get them

What plug does it come with

Is it the same model as you think you will get, BB often has BB specific variants, as does Chris Coffee in the US. This can means better internal components, extra accessories etc..

Will the Retailer still be there in 2 years or 3 years time to support you, or might it disappear 6 months later having sold all it's stock. *Remember how many go out of business in Jan Feb, once Xmas is fully milked!*

Are they authorised resellers and selling current stock or are they selling returns, old, damaged stock

Do you trust them with your details, inc credit card


I could go on and on and on....but people still buy when some or all of these conditions above are problematic....just to save £10-£50. Prosumer stuff is expensive and it's really not worth throwing some of the above away just to save a few quid. In fact if that saving is so important that you don't consider carefully the issues bulleted....perhaps you can't really afford the hobby!

*When testing I always insist they are factory fresh not tested or inspected, so I get what a box shifter would send*. I do this so I can root out any issues with packaging that I can send to the manufacturer, e.g. plugs without covers shoved down the side of the machine with the potential to scratch the nice new case, whilst still in the bloody box. I have from some of your loved manufacturers found leaks when I run the machine up without the case on....seriously if you saved 30 quid from a box shifter are you the sort of person who before they uses the machine is going to run it up to temp for a few hours and pull a few shots with the case off whilst you inspect it, both as it comes up to temp and after a few hours. Would you know if a hose is incorrectly routed badly kinked, or even if a component substitution for a much cheaper components has been made (which would be found on PDI, if the retailer does this).

Now to be clear I am not saying you will always get a problem, most of the time the machines might be fine....but that doesn't really help when you are looking at a twisted, or dented machine, or find a leak that's been going for 11 months from new. It's small consolation when someone says "mostly the machines are OK, worth saving the £30....mostly".

I'm not saying that you have to have a 2 year fully transferable warranty, because you might not decide to upgrade to a better machine after 18 months and I dunno, you judge whether that 6 months warranty left on your machine from a Top UK retailer helps sell it or even sell it for a higher price than without (perhaps that higher price is more than the saving someone made on a box shifted machine. I'm also not saying the Retailer goodwill because you purchased the machine from them is important 3 or 4 years down the line. Also supporting good UK retailers...why on earth would we want to do that....lets not think what it was like 10 or 11 years ago trying to purchase prosumer machines in the UK.

I have at times had to repair machines before I could continue testing (not so common as tiny leaks which you woudln't notice).


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I think you will find that fracino actually make a lot of the components in house


List me out what components they make in house that other manufacturers don't and where my statement is incorrect?

Also I have stressed many times we should support UK companies, so I have no axe to grind with them.


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## Crim (Nov 24, 2017)

Very much a newcomer to the group - how do you rate Nuova Simonelli's Oscar !!? Not duo but heat exchange, has good reviews and under £1,000


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Crim said:


> Very much a newcomer to the group - how do you rate Nuova Simonelli's Oscar !!? Not duo but heat exchange, has good reviews and under £1,000


It rates well for steam power and a decent shot. But for me I didn't like the drip tray, having to use volumetric buttons or the lever to control the steam arm.

Also heard you need to adjust the OPV to get the best out of it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Crim said:


> Very much a newcomer to the group - how do you rate Nuova Simonelli's Oscar !!? Not duo but heat exchange, has good reviews and under £1,000


Not reviewed the latest one.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> List me out what components they make in house that other manufacturers don't and where my statement is incorrect?
> 
> Also I have stressed many times we should support UK companies, so I have no axe to grind with them.


Being critical of Fracino in this area is very probably similar to the pot calling the kettle black in as much as all espresso machine makers probably buy some parts in or in some cases if unusual subcontract the work involved in making them..

The EU distance selling regs have become a little strange of late. I made use of them recently on an item from Germany and was told oh you have 2 weeks to send it back on that basis. They also tried to just send me another one. A lot depends on the seller. This one was clearly awkward so good job I used paypal to buy it. It went back as not as described - a grinder that looked great and in practice was pretty hopeless at espresso levels. Actually it may have been completely incapable of grinding to that level. Hard to tell if the burrs clog up which they did. This is the sort of thing that the distance selling laws are for. When looking around at espresso machines one thing that surprised me was that many do not give pretty basic information that a buyer might want to know before buying - not even on the manufacturers own web site.







Maybe that's why Fracino do.

There is also a more ancient law kicking about - fit for use. That can even include not breaking down too often and it doesn't matter how an item has been bought. Manufacturers generally know about problems with their products but get away with them because people don't bother to sort it out. I'm guilty some time ago we bought a cooker. After it had been on for a while the knobs became way too hot to touch so it was just replaced, mainly because Comet had gone out of business.







An area currently on my mind because we are looking for another at the moment. Also a fridge freezer - most like the one in The Tower have plastic backs. Look at reviews on items like this and there always seems to be some disastrous ones so have to wonder if they are product problems which may have been fixed, real and still there or user related. I often find product problems on things we buy in this area - eg a hot water dispenser that produces cooler water because it next to a window in a cold part of the house. It was fine until the weather cooled down. As it has merit we'll put up with it but really it should cope.

Manufacturers knowing about problems - If some one vents steam into the drip tray on a Piccino they know that it will distort. The metal bit is fine but the plastic thing underneath isn't. I believe they tell people not to do this - that is ok.

I've had more grief with distance selling laws with items from Germany. Might seem strange but it's a fact. Also certain hobby areas where a seller might refuse to accept paypal because they know that they may have to accept returns and cover the costs. Some people on ebay use bids rather than buy it now due to that - they need to cover the cost on buy it nows. Don't want it anymore isn't a valid reason for returning things though.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Being critical of Fracino in this area is very probably similar to the pot calling the kettle black in as much as all espresso machine makers probably buy some parts in or in some cases if unusual subcontract the work involved in making them..


Did you read the areas of the thread that referred to in house and non in house components and the context in which it was mentioned.I was talking about whether spares might be an issue. I was not critical of Fracino at all in this respect. I simply said the almost all prosumer espresso machine manufacturers make certain parts in house and the rest they buy in. Some also make the boilers, some indeed make a group and they also make machines. San Marco etc..

The point I was making was that generic components in machine internals are a GOOD THING. People don't tend to buy cases and other very specific components. However you might be pissed off if you found that a rotary pumped machine didn't use the standard RPM compact motor (as used in prosumer machines), but a motor made and wound by that specific espresso machine manufacturer...who, at best, wanted to charge you an arm and a leg for it, or at worst was no longer in business.

As to the specific point I have quoted, I have said exactly what you are for more than a decade, I don't see how I am the pot calling the kettle black?

As for product problems, the biggest one plaguing the UK is moulded plugs on tumble driers, washing machine and other long duration+high drain devices...especially moulded plugs on cheapass cables..


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## CardinalBiggles (Apr 24, 2017)

I did consider the Fracino range. Very well established, made in Brum iirc, service and spares network, and very affordable.

Good luck with your new stup.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

blueberrypro said:


> As an importer for Vibiemme im rather biased but I believe our machine is very high performing compared to others, the other bonus is you are getting an e61 group head which is unusual on machines of these size. I am sure we can get to your price, give me a pm if you would like a quotation?


Did I miss the bit where you suddenly became a forum sponsor, allowing you to flog your wares.....I may have missed it of course and if I did apologies all round......


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## wladek (Feb 14, 2018)

Hey,

I must say your choice is decent!

But before you buy something make sure to read complete review through the depth.

Have a good day

*amanda*


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I feel like I entered the twilight zone again....what is all this rubbish?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I feel like I entered the twilight zone again....what is all this rubbish?


Think the necropost anonymous meeting must've been cancelled.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

MoonRivo said:


> *Hi mate, *
> 
> *If you want to create a high-quality espresso in less than a minute, have Breville BES870XL Barista Express Espresso Machine. This is among the most versatile espresso machines with a few controls and buttons for easy operation. You have the freedom to select the settings that suit your preferences.*
> 
> *You can know more about the best espresso machine here. *


I expect they have already picked a machine by now. This was asked well ovsd a year ago.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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