# Buying a stock ek43



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Started this as there was some interesting chit chat re Ek43's on the Niche thread.

In an effort not to derail it , i'll post my thoughts here.

Comments were around ' Don't buy a stock ek, they are poorly aligned and come with the wrong burrs "

It was interesting to me, as there were a few of us here who got Ek's after Matt Pergers tilt at the World Bariats Championship with one.

Were they awful ? Was the coffee terrible ? Not for me but across the models they were inconsistent.

Yes you could argue the original coffee burrs were harder to work with, but they still did something different to any other grinder out there.

The fact that Mahl changed the coffee burrs not long after gives some indication that , yes improvements could be made.

Now we are in the era of measuring alignment of grinders , almost to the point where it would seem any grinder manufactured prior to the alignment phase , is now disregarded. When does alignment become marginal in the cup, I have no idea.

Were the Compak e8/e10 bad grinders or just the best they could be at the time? I never saw any alignment figures on a r120, does this mean it's no good ? Nope ? When something like a Niche comes out, I see commentary across the pond on wanting to see laser analysis and it's alignment measurements on a £500 grinder for home .

Re burrs I have no experience with the SSP burrs, all the stuff i read about them is very positive, they cost alot and people put them in general in grinders that cost even more.

I even see people buying these burrs for the mazzer mini's for instance ( seems false economy but hey ).

I don't know what point I am trying to make really , I see discussion of people pulling 25-27% EY shots or ristretto's at 1:1 at 19% EY on the yank forums. Part of me thinks that alot of the coffee i see , just isn't roasted to be tasty or even achieve those EY's (there is some doubt on the yank forums , about how these measurements are being achieved also ) . At 19% TDS risotto would blow my head off, but to each there.

own.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

There's a strong correlation between coffee, machine and grinder. Some folks are very satisfied with an E61 machine, a conical grinder and medium roasted coffee. And there's really no reason to push the envelope.

Advances in coffee growing, processing and roasting are starting a new challenge for those interested. Of course there's more beyond EY and TDS but at the same time couple a Decent Espresso machine with a tricked out EK43 and you might find there's more to coffee than just the traditional "coffee taste". Or, in some cases, it might be a case of chronic upgraditis or GAS.

Either way, an Ek43 is just a tool that helps you get the results you want.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dev said:


> There's a strong correlation between coffee, machine and grinder. Some folks are very satisfied with an E61 machine, a conical grinder and medium roasted coffee. And there's really no reason to push the envelope.
> 
> Advances in coffee growing, processing and roasting are starting a new challenge for those interested. Of course there's more beyond EY and TDS but at the same time couple a Decent Espresso machine with a tricked out EK43 and you might find there's more to coffee than just the traditional "coffee taste". Or, in some cases, it might be a case of chronic upgraditis or GAS.
> 
> Either way, an Ek43 is just a tool that helps you get the results you want.


Can you not get beyond "traditional coffee taste" (whatever that is, I mean there has always been Ethiopian naturals & washed Kenyans) with normal grinders & brewed coffee?


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

The discussion seems to be about espresso. Or EKspresso.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dev said:


> There's a strong correlation between coffee, machine and grinder. Some folks are very satisfied with an E61 machine, a conical grinder and medium roasted coffee. And there's really no reason to push the envelope.
> 
> Advances in coffee growing, processing and roasting are starting a new challenge for those interested. Of course there's more beyond EY and TDS but at the same time couple a Decent Espresso machine with a tricked out EK43 and you might find there's more to coffee than just the traditional "coffee taste". Or, in some cases, it might be a case of chronic upgraditis or GAS.
> 
> Either way, an Ek43 is just a tool that helps you get the results you want.


Yeah it's been a while since I was into traditional italian espresso ( not that there is anything wrong with that ) , i am not sure if you are referring to me as just liking " coffee taste or not" but hey I had an ek43 years ago at that point i was lucky enough to get one considerably cheaper than today's prices , or beign honest I would not have bothered.

It's hard to say without experience of a ticked out EK and a decent but i'd rather see more consistent and better roasting than having to spend north of £6k plus on a set up ( decent plus ek plus sup burrs ) . I see alot of "speciality coffee " that is just too under developed, full stop , not for espresso and not for italian style espresso. It lacks the sweetness if proteins to have .

As a point of difference you may see more roasters move towards more development in roasts ( perhaps too much for my tastes who knows ) but when you get Go Get Em tiger In the USA starting to do lighter and darker roasts then this signals that the concept is becoming more acceptable .

https://gget.com/coffee/dark-las-brisas


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

There's probably little to no point in getting such an expensive setup for medium to dark roasts. Those extract just fine on any espresso capable setup, being lever or pump, conical or flat.

I guess you really have to like those "underdeveloped" beans. With some beans you can avoid unpleasant tasting notes even with 0 to 5% development after first crack. And once you get used to using filter roasts for espresso, it's pretty hard to go back to medium.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dev said:


> There's probably little to no point in getting such an expensive setup for medium to dark roasts. Those extract just fine on any espresso capable setup, being lever or pump, conical or flat.
> 
> I guess you really have to like those "underdeveloped" beans. With some beans you can avoid unpleasant tasting notes even with 0 to 5% development after first crack. And once you get used to using filter roasts for espresso, it's pretty hard to go back to medium.


I have used filter roasts for espresso and omni. And used some good espresso roasts too for espresso ( Roundhill springs to mind )

I am not talking about roasts for espresso here , i was referring to omni or filter roasts that don't deliver the promised sweetness for filter or immersion etc.

yes taste is subjective but if you steep a bean for a period of time and it still cant get to x EY then something somewhere is on malfunction.

I don't use dark roasts. Referencing roasts by colour again for me is problematic , at it doesn't tell you the whole story.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Just out of interest what is your drink of choice , espresso ? flat white ? filter etc ?


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Half straight espresso and half with milk in the morning, V60 after lunch, usually the same bean or very similar.

I try to vary what I use, between my roasts and roasted beans just to keep a track of how my beans evolve over time. I've noticed very light roasts take a turn for the better over time.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I would take anything you read on the forums with a huge grain of salt (*especially* on the yank forum) as when you look in closer detail it's obvious people who claim to hit higher EY consistently are either:


They are measuring EY outright wrong i.e. without filtering for espresso, so their data is garbage

Their calculations are wrong (see Matt Perger's post here - http://cargocollective.com/mattperger/The-EK43-Part-Two/.VyqP0oR96Uk/.XGZs8rh7mUk - the EY calculations are all wrong according to the data given)

They're using some super-soluble coffee like some of the washed Kenyans which have a lot of soluble content, extract very easily and are not representative of a broad range of origins and varieties.


I do think perhaps you can hit some higher EY on some of the grinders with bigger burrs but I'm not convinced it translates to superior taste. This is based on my experience with my own EK43 and hand grinder. Now again I find my EK43 joy to use and wouldn't give it up, but it's not strictly about chasing higher EY.

Again personal preference but I also don't really enjoy light roasted espresso that tastes like concentrated filter coffee (I'd rather drink the real thing). Appropriately roasted & developed espresso roasts also don't seem to require any special equipment to extract properly. I was recently in Italy (Naples) and had many traditional espresso shots pulled on beans and gear that would make a lot of speciality coffee fans cringe and still they were surprisingly sweet and fruity, and easy to drink without sugar.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

The Italian espresso is not really strict on rules. The 7g in 25-30ml out traditional guideline can be quite forgiving.

I've also tasted some very nicely balanced shots from light roasts out of run of the mill cafe equipment.

My conclusion is that underextracted shots are more drinkable than overextracted ones.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dev said:


> The 7g in 25-30ml out traditional guideline can be quite forgiving.
> 
> My conclusion is that underextracted shots are more drinkable than overextracted ones.


Based on what? Who is over-extracting light roasts with typical espresso equipment?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dev said:


> The Italian espresso is not really strict on rules. The 7g in 25-30ml out traditional guideline can be quite forgiving.
> 
> I've also tasted some very nicely balanced shots from light roasts out of run of the mill cafe equipment.
> 
> My conclusion is that underextracted shots are more drinkable than overextracted ones.


In my.experience neither are good.

And depends on the coffee used and the level of extraction.

There is some sweetness for some coffee's at ristretto ish 16.

Under extracted lighter roasts will struggle to hit that tho and that's a world of lemon sucking pain.

Over extracted and add some milk, more forgiving too but again especially for a more developed roast.

The statement itself is too wide to qualify and yep its all personal preference.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

EK43 or EK43S will be my next grinder, I have tasted the result of it for espresso and I liked it.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> As a point of difference you may see more roasters move towards more development in roasts ( perhaps too much for my tastes who knows )
> 
> https://gget.com/coffee/dark-las-brisas


Sorry for the noob question @Mrboots2u but what does developed mean in this context? I noticed that yourself & @MWJB mentioned that you liked developed yet lighter roasts in another thread & I'm curious as to the difference between developed & roasted.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Does it produce good coffee? Is it easy to work with? Does it suit the workflow? Is there anything better in this price range?

Does it taste N times better than X grinder that is N times cheaper? Probably not, but I've been enjoying mine

It does, however, have a steep learning curve compared to other grinders I had.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jon_Foster said:


> Sorry for the noob question @Mrboots2u but what does developed mean in this context? I noticed that yourself & @MWJB mentioned that you liked developed yet lighter roasts in another thread & I'm curious as to the difference between developed & roasted.


Developed in my case means, extracts to a sweet result, with acidity. An under-developed roast would be brothy, umami like, with little sweetness, or acidity.


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## Heligan (Aug 24, 2013)

PPapa said:


> It does, however, have a steep learning curve compared to other grinders I had.


 @PPapa What aspect have you found most challenging?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Back in 2014, pulled the trigger and ordered an EK43 after reading a link in a post by forum member and legend Gary ****. 3Fe had been evaluating an EK43 following the stir Matt Perger caused with his WBC routine. The clincher for me were the reports that the EK could tame espressos made from lighter roasts. At the time, there wasn't much hands on knowledge so buying one was a step into the unknown. Then, EKs started popping up in most serious 3rd wave shops where the EK's Achilles heel became evident. Stock coffee burrs were peerless for pour over but nigh on useless for espresso when using lighter roasts. You just couldn't grind fine enough and ended up with gushers. I gave up and swapped my original coffee burrs and fitted a set of Turkish which worked for espresso but still ground coarse enough for pour over.

EK43 owners who bought their EKs a couple of years after mine noticed subtle differences in the coffee burrs fitted to their EKs. Gary **** noticed that the burrs seemed to have a slightly different edge profile compared to the original coffee burrs. Mahlkonig had made some subtle changes but were very coy about acknowledging it. Crucially, what this meant is you could pull espresso without having to align the burrs so they were almost touching as was the case with the original coffee burrs. Had we finally reached seventh stage enlightenment? Not yet.

Despite his analysis in conjunction with Mahlkonig that the EK43 produced the most consistent grind - see Barista Hustle, Matt Perger came to the conclusion that the best grinder could be made even better (thanks Matt) by shimming the static burr to ensure even closer burr alignment. Suddenly, the EK was no longer the best unless you embarked on a masochistic labour of love which involved repeatedly dismantling and reassembling to ensure your EK's burrs were correctly aligned. Surely, the reward for such dedication to coffee purism would bring seventh stage enlightenment? Wrong again.

Before we knew it, we had the arrival of exotic aftermarket burr options provided by the likes of Gorilla and SSP with special coatings which took, we were promised, the EK to giddyingly new heights. Seventh stage enlightenment? You know the answer by now, cricket.

More recently came the engineers professional and/or amateur who viewed Perger's shimming method as all wrong. The way to go now was to embrace skimming (sanding) the housing behind the static burr to ensure greater consistency of alignment within micron tolerances. Everyone cooed and sighed appreciatively. Seventh stage achieved.......??

Not immune to cognitive dissonance, I recently bought an EKS because it had been fitted with SSP burrs which I had been considering for my original EK. Surely, the combination of an EKS fitted with SSP burrs would finally bring inner peace and seventh stage enlightenment?

So, where am I in terms of coffee nirvana? What are the differences where it really matters - in the cup? Despite the EKS/SSP burrs producing excellent espresso and pour over, I could not ignore, alignment-wise, the pangs of not knowing and checked static burr alignment - 1μm. Impressive. And the SSP burrs? They grind the same dose weight of beans in half the time the Turkish burrs do. Is that important? Nope. Do they make a difference in the cup - a much more important question? Too early to say. Me, the EKS and the SSP burrs are still getting to know each other. If there is a difference between the EKS plus SSP burrs, I am pretty sure it's close to the question, 'how many angels can you get on the head of a pin'. I was amused when I came across, as far as I am aware, the only stockist of SSPs in Europe who recommended SSP Redspeed for espresso and Silver Knights for pour over according to their blind testing results. Perhaps I need to get a set of SSP Redspeeds to do my own blind tasting checks. Then again, maybe I don't.

Is there a moral to this tale? Yes there is. If you like lighter roasts, you need flat burrs and size does make a difference up to a point where in the pursuit of the Holy Grail or seventh stage of coffee enlightenment, the more you spend will, whisper it, reward you with very modest increments, taste-wise.

Time for a coffee - espresso or pour over - washed or natural? Those are much more important questions.


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## mikas (Dec 19, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> If you like lighter roasts, you need flat burrs...


...and then you pay a visit to Tim Wendelboe's coffee shop and have reassess everything you think you knew


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mikas said:


> ...and then you pay a visit to Tim Wendelboe's coffee shop and have reassess everything you think you knew


Some of the shots that really turned my head regarding espresso where from a robur with a Ethiopian sympatheticaly roasted.

Are flat burrs best for extraction, yes, can you make good espresso with a lighter with a conicla. Yes

In not aiming this at anyone in here but I sometimes think people are chasing light roasted espresso with no acidity at all.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

mikas said:


> ...and then you pay a visit to Tim Wendelboe's coffee shop and have reassess everything you think you knew


Does he use light roasts in his shop or rather darker espresso roasts?

Robur is a great productivity grinder and might be better for milk based drinks.


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

dev said:


> Does he use light roasts in his shop or rather darker espresso roasts?
> 
> Robur is a great productivity grinder and might be better for milk based drinks.


I haven't tried TW, but the website says:



Tim Wendelboe said:


> We wish to preserve and enhance as much of the natural coffee flavours as possible so that you will be able to taste the distinct flavours that is unique to each coffee we import. Therefore we roast our coffees very carefully in order not to cover our coffees with roasty aromas from darker roasts and at the same time stay away from the grassy flavors and sour acidity from a underdeveloped roast. Our espresso roasts are similar to our light roasts but are developed slightly more in order to reduce the intensity of acidity when brewed as espresso. This roast will give you slightly more bitter notes when brewed as a filter coffee.


He admits the Robur isn't the best grinder ever, but is great for high volume output. I think they don't do milk drinks in TW, for what it's worth.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

What cafe doesn't do milk drinks?

https://www.google.com/search?q=tim+wendelboe&oq=tim+we&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.4173j0j7&client=ms-unknown&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fid=0x46416e6f545025f5:0x2f10917800396987&fpstate=luuv&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipP7qVExu4uE2ceodV2wMpq4y6gAH0kd9qzDEv6x&viewerState=ga

I've had both his filter and espresso roasts and the espresso is clearly more developed.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Heligan said:


> @PPapa What aspect have you found most challenging?


I would have PMed you, but I am curious to see if I'm the only one who was in the same boat. Sorry for the ramblings if anyone finds it irrelevant or boring...

With previous grinders, I aimed for 1:2 ratio in ~32s. Worked fine with almost all beans. I assumed "dialling in" is just that. I didn't find messing with any of parameters made massive improvement - only made things worse.

Try that recipe with an EK and most of the time you'll get an awful shot! Some beans really liked 20s extraction (with 8s PI), some beans preferred longer than that, others smaller ratio, etc... maybe I just haven't found a ballpark that can work okay with multiple beans.

Now it opened a lot in terms of experimentation. It was a can of worms for ~7 weeks since I got an ek43s and I do get amazing shots, but equally I had a lot of shots that just didn't taste as nice as the god shots I was able to pull. I don't want anyone to get me wrong - *I'm super happy with the tasty shots*.

I don't know if it's me not experimenting enough prior to having an ek, not trying to run LR with E37S for long enough (I ran DTP with E37S, then moved to LR with Niche) or just getting better with tasting lever espresso since my LR is few months old, still. It certainly has been difficult at times - I'm not sure if I'm the only one.

Finally, prior to buying it, I wished I could have had an ek at home for a day and see how I liked it. I am now happy I didn't do that as one day would not have been enough to experience the capabilities of it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PPapa said:


> I would have PMed you, but I am curious to see if I'm the only one who was in the same boat. Sorry for the ramblings if anyone finds it irrelevant or boring...
> 
> With previous grinders, I aimed for 1:2 ratio in ~32s. Worked fine with almost all beans. I assumed "dialling in" is just that. I didn't find messing with any of parameters made massive improvement - only made things worse.
> 
> ...


Yes longer ratio shots were the norm for me .


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

PPapa said:


> I would have PMed you, but I am curious to see if I'm the only one who was in the same boat. Sorry for the ramblings if anyone finds it irrelevant or boring...
> 
> With previous grinders, I aimed for 1:2 ratio in ~32s. Worked fine with almost all beans. I assumed "dialling in" is just that. I didn't find messing with any of parameters made massive improvement - only made things worse.
> 
> ...


The EK is not a normal grinder. In the article written by 3Fe I referred to above, people at 3Fe found that the EK could and did produce great shots and then, without warning, produce a sinker. All this with exactly the same barista routine. Those were the early days. Problems with gushers and spritzing were also widely commented on. I had some beans given to me recently. They spritzed like hell not matter what I did. Was able to try them through another EK I had in the house and same problem. Switching to another bean - same barista prep and both EKs produced identical moreish espresso.

This morning I pulled a couple of shots using some Atkinson's XO. First shot was fast - 20secs - underextracted - tightened the grind - second shot 30 secs - sweetness opened up. Both shots pulled at just over 1:2. Think this is key to getting the best out of the EK with lighter roasts - pushes up the EY into sweetness territory. The EK is, IMO, the only grinder that can tame legendary acidic Kenyan beans for espresso. Or is that Ekspresso.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

2.5 out at least for the EK IMO


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yes longer ratio shots were the norm for me .


Personally I haven't always found that to be the case, I think that was much more applicable to the old coffee burrs rather than the newer ones. For me, the best shots are generally within 1:2.2 to 1:2.5 ratio, what varies the most is time: some are best at 18s, others 30s, rarely longer than that


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

fluffles said:


> Personally I haven't always found that to be the case, I think that was much more applicable to the old coffee burrs rather than the newer ones. For me, the best shots are generally within 1:2.2 to 1:2.5 ratio, what varies the most is time: some are best at 18s, others 30s, rarely longer than that


Sorry that for me is the longer ratio i was referring to . wasnt clear I meant longer than 1:2


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Ok I have read all of this and followed links - tempted to comment on one but wont.

How often have I seen the comment don't buy that grinder spend £x on and hand grinder instead. Conical burrs but look to be used and favoured on many styles of beans. So how does that fit in?

John

-


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> . Conical burrs but look to be used and favoured on many styles of beans. So how does that fit in?
> 
> John
> 
> -


Can you clear this bit up , I'm not sure what your getting at? that hand grinders have conical burrs too?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Ok I have read all of this and followed links - tempted to comment on one but wont.
> 
> How often have I seen the comment don't buy that grinder spend £x on and hand grinder instead. Conical burrs but look to be used and favoured on many styles of beans. So how does that fit in?
> 
> ...


Is this a crossword clue??


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Can you clear this bit up , I'm not sure what your getting at? that hand grinders have conical burrs too?


Challenge boots! Can you get the other one involved too?


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

dev said:


> What cafe doesn't do milk drinks?
> 
> https://www.google.com/search?q=tim+wendelboe&oq=tim+we&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l3.4173j0j7&client=ms-unknown&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8#fid=0x46416e6f545025f5:0x2f10917800396987&fpstate=luuv&imagekey=!1e10!2sAF1QipP7qVExu4uE2ceodV2wMpq4y6gAH0kd9qzDEv6x&viewerState=ga
> 
> I've had both his filter and espresso roasts and the espresso is clearly more developed.


Not sure what you intended to link to but it didn't work unless it was just a google search of "tim wendelboe"... Mind you, found a bit on their website that they do espresso with or without milk. I think they don't encourage it at all though, and call it an espresso bar, so i think the comment about bad espresso being covered up by milk is off base. Lots of people are drinking espresso there.

And yeah, the quote I posted from their website says their espresso is more developed...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Can you clear this bit up , I'm not sure what your getting at? that hand grinders have conical burrs too?


Posts suggest flats must be used for certain beans. Some hand grinders are well regarded but use various sizes of conical. They have been suggested as being a better option.

John

-


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Flat can be used for everything


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Posts suggest flats must be used for certain beans. Some hand grinders are well regarded but use various sizes of conical. They have been suggested as being a better option.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Not many folk say that flat cannot do other roast levels, both types can do all roast levels, but people will prefer outputs of both grinders based on their preference, mine is towards flats


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Posts suggest flats must be used for certain beans. Some hand grinders are well regarded but use various sizes of conical. They have been suggested as being a better option.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Depends what for, hadn't grinders tend to get recommended for filter as a second grinder. Not as espresso primaries ( in general )


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Depends what for, hadn't grinders tend to get recommended for filter as a second grinder. Not as espresso primaries ( in general )


Not up to the challenge ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Not up to the challenge ?


What's the challenge ?


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> What's the challenge ?


Dialling in then making 4 flat whites for guests









Think he's just playing around...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> What's the challenge ?


Come on boots keep up we have two out of three.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

HBLP said:


> Think he's just playing around...


Think again!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Come on boots keep up we have two out of three.


ah....


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Depends what for, hadn't grinders tend to get recommended for filter as a second grinder. Not as espresso primaries ( in general )


Sure I've seen hand grinders reccommend for espresso on several occasions though it's usually when peeps are on the lower end of the budget.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Sure I've seen hand grinders reccommend for espresso on several occasions though it's usually when peeps are on the lower end of the budget.


Oh yeah but in this bracket if grinder £500 plus say ...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> Not many folk say that flat cannot do other roast levels, both types can do all roast levels, but people will prefer outputs of both grinders based on their preference, mine is towards flats


It seems to be a bizarre subject. Net effect on my 2nd crack monsooned on Niche is a brighter taste than the Mazzer Mini and more flavours if I tune for them. In my acceptable range a mild sweet after taste. The other strange thing is that the brown crema taste has gone back to what the grinder in the BE produced. It's much more like the drink itself tastes but stronger. I would have to had to use more coffee to compare the BE with Niche. I suspect many might see my ideal monsooned as being bitter. Not the right word really but it will do.

I don't just drink dark roasts as I find most of them boring. I only really know of 2 that can have distinct noticeable flavours out of lots I have tried.

I've always seen the EK43 as a deli grinder that people lust after. Some I believe single dose them with an attachment, often mentioned to be NVG on flat burr grinders. Some grind into a cup. I have done a lot of that on other grinders and IMHO if too clumpy not a good idea at all. Then it looks like one turn of a dial can can tune for all methods but people may fit Turkish burrs - I assume to make tuning easier. Then comes the other problem also mentioned on other makes - not that accurately made. Aligning a Robur could prove interesting







but I don't want to get into the link mentioning Ek43's and extraction. That makes me wonder if a well aligned Anfin would be a bargain.

John

-


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jon_Foster said:


> Sorry for the noob question @Mrboots2u but what does developed mean in this context? I noticed that yourself & @MWJB mentioned that you liked developed yet lighter roasts in another thread & I'm curious as to the difference between developed & roasted.


Roasted to a point where it is able to get a balanced shot , sweetness and acidity. As an aside I use this term, as i use dark and light used to describe beans and or roast, but im my over simplified idiots world, the outside colour doesn't always tell the whole story. Has it been poorly roasted so the outer is X the inner is not...

Ultimately , i try and look at beans and see if the supplied notes appeal to me, I try said roaster, see if either I can get it ball park close to those or if i just cant but still enjoy it. If so roaster goes onto trusted list. Like everyone else I have certain notes. flavours that I know are not going ti flat my boat. Marzipan, tobacco, leather, sock, predominantly grapefruit. The colour of the roast id largely irrelevant to me , i try and judge by taste.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Ah the old guard , the forum is still alive . Thanks for an interesting read over lunch .

Has the faff gone from using an EK for espresso now .? ........


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Faff free Ekspresso is an oxymoron


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

Thanks @Mrboots2u & @MWJB for your thoughts re development. I'm still very green (see what I did there) when it comes to the roasting process so all information is helpful!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Ah the old guard , the forum is still alive . Thanks for an interesting read over lunch .
> 
> Has the faff gone from using an EK for espresso now .? ........


No more faff than any other single doser, in fact probably less as it has an augur and you don't need to mess about getting retained grinds/beans out


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> No more faff than any other single doser, in fact probably less as it has an augur and you don't need to mess about getting retained grinds/beans out


Bang a volumetric doser on the top and you can happily bang out 4 drinks in a row (especially if you use a 'Niche' cup to grind into)


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you want bang out 4 drinks then just grind 80g at once, it'll only take about 3 seconds too....


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I don't understand the faff criticisms with the Ek. I mean, exactly how busy are you at home that you can't spend 20-30 seconds preparing a shot?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Rhys said:


> Bang a volumetric doser on the top and you can happily bang out 4 drinks in a row (especially if you use a 'Niche' cup to grind into)










You have a 0.5sec shot time then.

Mentioning augers conics have one built in. Some more than others true but explains why Niche can dose to 0.1g without one. Actually I wonder if the burrs could be improved in that respect.

Niche, 2 portafilter and I'd reckon americano's could be pulled on the trot until the tank emptied.

John

-


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Jesus, it doesn't matter if you split a thread or move it no matter what the F*****G niche still infiltrates the thread


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I can remember a time when the EK used spray coffee everywhere , I'm not dising it TBH I have always hankered for one although I have not the confidence to probably get the best out of it .


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

It is a steep learning curve, and you'll get sick of looking at it and saying "why the heck did you do that"...

However, once you come out the other side of that, you'll never look back!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> I can remember a time when the EK used spray coffee everywhere , I'm not dising it TBH I have always hankered for one although I have not the confidence to probably get the best out of it .


To be honest, some of those shots that sprayed everywhere tasted amazing. I think on those times fondly. Looked like a car crash, tasted like liquid gold.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)




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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

jeebsy said:


>


*trigger* warning







 reaching for my cloth!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MildredM said:


> *trigger* warning
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can still remember that specific shot, was so good.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I can still remember that specific shot, was so good.


Ah the good old days.

You taught me so much Obi-wan


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> To be honest, some of those shots that sprayed everywhere tasted amazing. I think on those times fondly. Looked like a car crash, tasted like liquid gold.


It's true I've had the same even after fastidious distribution prep, so I just went back to using a spouted portafilter.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Doesn't a poorly prepped puck, with a greater chance of channeling, negate the difference between a regular grinder and an EK?

Than there's the stuff bellow that really eliminates the WDT hustle:

http://kazak.com.pl/product/kribli-grabi/

https://coffeez.kr/6


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dev said:


> Doesn't a poorly prepped puck, with a greater chance of channeling, negate the difference between a regular grinder and an EK?
> 
> Than there's the stuff bellow that really eliminates the WDT hustle:
> 
> ...


There is a clip on Dumo instagram after all that twirling the coffee is still not even in the basket, and i'd like to see them tamp it and the result after it's sitting that high in the basket.


__
http://instagr.am/p/BoQsi7kDyN2/

The first clip , love the music, but would prefer to see the extraction after the prep too.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

That's when leveling/ocds come into play and you finish it off with a self leveling tamper. Easy peasy.

The Brazilian guy that makes Bravo products is doing very nice stuff.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dev said:


> Doesn't a poorly prepped puck, with a greater chance of channeling, negate the difference between a regular grinder and an EK?


No


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

jeebsy said:


>


i think this is why I thought ekpresso was messy, loving that timer a proper ek coffee patina.


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