# Help needed with technique



## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

Hi Everyone,

I've been experimenting with my new espresso machine for a few months now, and have been getting good results espresso wise, but you can never be sure if you're doing it correctly.

So I thought I'd ask the experts and record a video of myself making a 'Flat White'.

One area have been struggling with is the latte art, I can't seem to get the milk the right consistency with the rancillio wand. I can only put this down to the air not being incorporated throughout the milk. I have had success using an ikea milk froather after the steaming process, but this time even that didn't work!

Sorry this is quite a long video, I've never done this before so I hope it's ok (skip any of the boring bits).

[video=youtube;uh0ZuvX-Mmo]






I forgot to mention that I am using semi-skimmed milk. I'm not sure if this makes a difference?

Cheers,

Ric


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Milk jug is too big for the low power of the gaggia. Get yourself a 12oz jug with a more defined spout.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I would say you don't need to let so much water through at the start as the water will then be too cool in the boiler making the shots sour. I would say your first step into the shot glasses is fine. You are extracting by volume which I recon will mean you are going too long as indicated by blending on the shot. If you just go straight into that cup on top of some small scales you will get much better tasting espresso.

For the milk it seems firstly you have more milk in the jug than required for the cup. Secondly you need to have two distinct phases to steaming. First, the initial stretching where you have the tip near the surface and get the gentle tsch sound which should only be a short period, for me when I do about 4oz of milk that will be approx 10secs. Then the second phase is the incorporation where you want to get that wet paint look by rolling the milk with the tip slightly deeper and there is no tsch sound, this is the majority of the time in the steaming process. From your results you have a lot of foam = too much stretching, which is totally separate from the milk as its all you get in the cup = not enough incorporation.


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## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

Thanks for your comments so far. I have just purchased a new 12 oz rattleware milk jug, hopefully this will help a little.

As for the shot, I have a small set of jewellery scales but I can't fit them under the PF with the glass, there just isn't enough room. I could do it if I took the drip tray out, I'd have to watch out for the pressure release pipe though. What weight should I be looking for on a double shot? I think my dose is 17-18g.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi Ric, enjoyed your video. Semi-skimmed is probably a bit easier to stretch - that was what I was told during recent latte art training. You need a jug with a pronounced 'V' spout. For a single flat white, use a jug of between 25-33 cl. If you haven't got sufficient volume of milk in the jug, i.e. using one that's too big, you'll really struggle. Place the steam wand in the jug's 'V' so that it is sloping into the milk. Then tilt the jug to one side at 90 degrees to the the wand. This is necessary to get a good vortex in your milk whilst it's stretching. The milk must spin. You don't need to tilt a lot - experiment to get it right. The tip of the wand needs to be below the surface by about half an inch. As you're not trying to increase the milk volume for stretching, keep it at this depth. If you raise it too much, you will introduce air and get bigger bubbles. What you're looking for at the end of the process is a silky, velvety textured milk - not too thick and not too thin. You'll know if you have got it right as it will pour just right. That's where the pronounced 'V' on the jug comes in - necessary for accurate pour. Begin by pouring around the rim of the cup from a height of several inches. Go for a fast pour until the cup is 3/4 full. Then bring the jug almost to the top of the side of the cup and jiggle from side to side as you draw the jug across the cup from rim to centre. With a bit of luck you'll get the microfoam sitting on the top and creating a pleasing pattern.

Finally, get some temp tags - much easier than faffing around with a frothing thermometer and don't get in the way. You can find the link for them on this forum via Glen.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Ricriley said:


> Thanks for your comments so far. I have just purchased a new 12 oz rattleware milk jug, hopefully this will help a little.
> 
> As for the shot, I have a small set of jewellery scales but I can't fit them under the PF with the glass, there just isn't enough room. I could do it if I took the drip tray out, I'd have to watch out for the pressure release pipe though. What weight should I be looking for on a double shot? I think my dose is 17-18g.


With the Classic, you can dose from 14grm upwards but I wouldn't go about 18grm. It depends on personal taste preference. If you like the results you're getting at 17-18grm, stick with it. You could try a lower dose - sounds counter-intuitive - but you might find the taste opens up a little - not guaranteed but worth an experiment.


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## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

I may have over estimated. Looking at it I probably am dosing 14g.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Ricriley said:


> Thanks for your comments so far. I have just purchased a new 12 oz rattleware milk jug, hopefully this will help a little.
> 
> As for the shot, I have a small set of jewellery scales but I can't fit them under the PF with the glass, there just isn't enough room. I could do it if I took the drip tray out, I'd have to watch out for the pressure release pipe though. What weight should I be looking for on a double shot? I think my dose is 17-18g.


You can always just remove the spouts on the portafilter to give you some room. Exact amount depends on taste, start at 1.65 x the input to start with an adjust from there to taste.


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## Dave.wilton (Dec 24, 2012)

Ricriley said:


> As for the shot, I have a small set of jewellery scales but I can't fit them under the PF with the glass, there just isn't enough room.


I hate this about the classic. It will fit with a cup & scales under rather than a glass.

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/coffee-cups/c21


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If you are measuring shot extraction by weight rather than volume - aim for 1.6 times dose. For 16 grms, this would be 25grms of shot. If you want to use a shot glass, weigh 25 grms of water in the glass and mark the glass so you can measure an espresso extraction, by weight, to the marked line.


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## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> If you are measuring shot extraction by weight rather than volume - aim for 1.6 times dose. For 16 grms, this would be 25grms of shot. If you want to use a shot glass, weigh 25 grms of water in the glass and mark the glass so you can measure an espresso extraction, by weight, to the marked line.


This might be a silly question, a 16g dose fills my double basket. Is the double basket not for a 2oz double shot?

A 25g shot would only be just under 1oz wouldn't it? Or have I lost the plot here?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Shot extraction can be measured in grammes output or ml/fl oz output. If you are using a dosage of 16grms in your basket, the 'ideal' extraction to aim for is - 25grm weight of extraction, or 50ml or 1.5fl oz by volume. But these are only guides. A double espresso is given as 2fl oz or 60ml. As long as you are around any of these parameters, you're in the right ball park. Aim to get your extraction time to 27secs plus or minus a couple of secs. But at the end of the process, it's what tastes best to you.


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## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

Thanks guys. It looks like I've been over extracting my espresso, I'll give the weight a try.

Cheers!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Here's an 18g in, 28g out shot that's 2oz by volume









You'd be surprised what really fresh beans can do


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

^ where did you get that measuring shot?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

It's a rattleware 3oz jug

I got it from coffeehit for £6.50 http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/rattleware-3oz-shot-pitcher/p411


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

Chimpsinties

Please revert to your original avatar.... always made me smile


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Haha! I do love my ChimpsInTies pics. I have a good one of a chimp with a camera for the camera forum (POTN) I'm on too. Everyone loves a chimp









I'll change it back when I get on my home PC.

There you go, how's that? A chimp drinking a coffee. Don't know why it's so small?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

What coffee was that? I NEVER get crema that deep


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

What coffee was that? I NEVER get crema that deep even with beans 2 days old (well I did once and it was a dark roasted blend with a touch of robusta in...yuk)


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

That was Rave - Mocha Java I think. I've got to admit, I don't get that all the time but I like to use it as an example when people are surprised about weighing final result.









I'm currently on a bag of their Italian Job which I got for £11.50 for 1kg from Amazon. It has quite a lot of crema too but probably not this much.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

chimpsinties said:


> That was Rave - Mocha Java I think. I've got to admit, I don't get that all the time but I like to use it as an example when people are surprised about weighing final result.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How is their Italian job?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I wasn't holding out much hope for it as I basically bought it as a stop gap to tide me over but I actually quite like it. It also works really well in the AeroPress but then saying that it's pretty hard to get that wrong


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## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

I pulled my first espresso using the weight today. Trying for a 1.6 ratio.

I used 16.5g of ground coffee, tamped quite hard (I knew it flow too fast otherwise). Zeroed the scales. Let the machine run for 27 seconds. Bingo I got 34.4g.

This tasted pretty amazing to be honest, the mouthfeel was miles better than anything I've done before. It makes me want to go back and try all of the coffee beans I've bought again.

So does this count as a double or single espresso? Volume wise it's just over a single, but taste wise it's intense enough for a double? I don't know, I'm a little confused but it tastes dam good!

Thanks everyone, I never knew I was lacking in the espresso area, so glad I made the video now.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Ric, above all, be guided by the taste. If you can pick out various flavours and you're not getting unpleasant bitter notes, you're doing OK. You're in ristretto territory with 34.4grm output which is just over 1fl oz. If you're on the sweet spot and it sounds as if you are with your set up, why not try different beans and see what flavour characteristics tick the boxes for you. You could then try upping the dose a little and see what that does flavour-wise. I've gone down from dosing at 18grm to 16grm dose as it seems to open the flavour profile more.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I would agree with the above having experimented I am now dosing 16g and find that the best. There is no absolute value or time to aim for, everyone's tastes are different so it's worth experimenting. By weighing and timing you are able to guide you experiments and find what tastes best for you. But that's all part of the fun!


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> You're in ristretto territory with 34.4grm output which is just over 1fl oz.


What gram input/output would you say is a double espresso?


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## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

There was a hint of bitterness. I'll ease up on the tamp next time and see how that turns out.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> What gram input/output would you say is a double espresso?


Nominally, a double espresso is 45-60ml or 1.5-2.0fl oz.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

ratio of 1.6 is a good starting point for weight

16g in 25-26g out


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A double is anything that is the entire output brewed from a double basket. Split it in two and you get two singles, even if they're 8g each. Single can be half of a double brewed shot, or a single basket brewed shot, even if that single is 10g, 60g, or 110g. Long answer short, output weight/volume is not a good guide, it's the dose.


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

Just watched your milk steaming again, as I'm getting great results now with my Rancilio arm.

You don't seem to be really stretching the milk, you shoot straight into the spinning/texturising stage. I start with the tip near the middle of the jug and have the tip JUST bellow the surface (so you get a tch tch tch sound) but don't let the milk spin. Don't move it and do this until you hit 100 degrees F. Then you start doing do what you are doing from the start - move the tip deeper and to the side with an angle that really spins and mixes the milk. Remember it's a two stage process with a Gaggia and Rancilio arm, unlike super powerful pro machines that foam the milk whatever you do and spinning it like your doing (your technique would probably work well with a commercial machine).

And yes, use less milk. Mine doubles in size, so I need very little.


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## Jimjam11 (Apr 12, 2013)

It looks like you got the milk too hot. 65c should be the max temp reached as beyond this the foam starts to break down (and lose sweetness). Plan to stop steaming at 60-62c which allows for it to rise a little further after you stop.

I thought your use of the ikea whisk was great by the way and should certainly help homogenise the milk/foam.


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## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

All things considered I'm now getting it right. Check it out.









Thanks, I might never have got there otherwise!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Well done, another example if what THIS forum is all about; helping its community


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Ricriley said:


> All things considered I'm now getting it right!


Nice one Ric - Did it taste as nice as it looks?


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## autopilot (Apr 4, 2013)

Ricriley said:


> All things considered I'm now getting it right. Check it out.
> 
> View attachment 2461
> 
> ...


Nice, what did you do different?


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Nice one....looking good


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## Ricriley (Jan 3, 2013)

Cheers, it did taste good. I think I stretched the milk a little too far, but not bad for first attempt with a new jug.

Things that I now do differently:

- I weigh my coffee, 16.5g dose at the moment but I'm going to experiment with this a little.

- I purchased a new smaller rattleware 12oz milk jug.

- I'm now stretching the milk to 100° before I whirlpool.

- I should have some temptags in the post, so I'll be able to get the thermometer out of the way as well.


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