# Espresso Ratios



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Can anyone point me to a link or simply list the kind of starter ratios and extraction times required for espresso please? I've had a quick look around but can't find what I'm looking for...

What I'm after is, amount in, (starting wth singles at 7g going up to tripples at around 21/22g), weight out and length of extraction.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

From HB

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/brewing-ratios-for-espresso-beverages-t2402.html


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Yep, seen that one thanks but there are no extraction times...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Milanski said:


> Yep, seen that one thanks but there are no extraction times...


25-30 isn't fixed I don't think .

What is it your trying to achieve or is there a taste defect that your trying to correct at the moment ?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

There are no rules


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> There are no rules


Bit zen today aren't we ........

all those big , ek extractions have made you mystic

Milan be guided by taste though , if something tastes good at 35 seconds and 16 g in 34 out , then it doesn't matter .

if something isn't tarting good , then in what what ? More chocolate , bitter , sour ? Taste will help you correct .

ive pulled 59 second shots of sqaure mile that have been delicious to me ....

if you just want to know if something you are pulling is called a ristretto then that's fine


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I just pulled 20g into 36.5g. 31 seconds.

What would that be classed as ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I just pulled 20g into 36.5g. 31 seconds.
> 
> What would that be classed as ?


Coffee of some sort hopefully .

unless you were putting crack or deviant ale into your machine .....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I just pulled 20g into 36.5g. 31 seconds.
> 
> What would that be classed as ?


1.825:1 or 55% brew ratio...always.

Milanski, Andy's table assumes nominal time (within a reasonable range), but the breakthrough is assessing the cup by mass relative to dose (less ambiguous than descriptor names like normale, which can be arbitrary depending on who you speak to & their taste). Mass, beverage weight, whatever you want to call it is the most crucial aspect of any percolation (drip or espresso) as long as flow is not absurdly slow or fast.

The idea with brew & espresso ratios is that you aim for a concentration (you could call it "strength"...but that doesn't satisfactorily explain it for me), you stick to the same ratio & based on results in the cup & you adjust from there by grind, principly. If you start re-jigging all the perameters (dose, grind, ratio), you can end up chasing your tail.

Each brew ratio (1.5:1, 1.6:1, 2:1 etc) is supposed to pertain to a specific concentration & assumes balanced espresso produced. Whilst it's not essential to know exactly what that concentration is (if too concentrated pull longer, if not concentrated enough pull shorter...adjusting grind to keep in the sweet zone), because hopefully you are able to ascertain the sweetspot by taste (grinder & technique allowing). Ratios of 1.5 to 1.65:1 are common (with typical grinders) and they infer concentrations of ~11% to 13% TDS.

However, since it's inception, concentration of espresso has varied and can conceivably be between 4%TDS to over 13%TDS (bean & roast - flavour intensty) can have a bearing here, maybe with more leeway regarding ideal yield. .

So to answer Milanski's original question, the weight out remains at the same ratio, irrespective of changes in dose weight, maybe stick to 1.6:1? If you like dark, pungent beans, or you have an EK43 with lighter SO maybe try ~2:1 (~9%-11%TDS)?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> There are no rules


That's rule 1.


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## ajh101 (Dec 21, 2013)

And rule 2 is, there are no rules


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Rule 1 = There are no rules.

Rule 2 = There is no rule 1. Whoever led you to believe there were rules should see rule 3.

Rule 3 = See Rule 1


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Rule 1 = There are no rules.
> 
> Rule 2 = There is no rule 1. Whoever led you to believe there were rules should see rule 3.
> 
> Rule 3 = See Rule 1


10 Print rule 1

20 got to line 10


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> 10 Print rule 1
> 
> 20 got to line 10


Thats numberwang!!!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Thats numberwang!!!!


Haha it finally caught on!!!!!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'll be hiding in the broom cupboard until the post-apocalyptic, anarchic hoards are brought back under control...


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> 10 Print rule 1
> 
> 20 got to line 10


Haha, I used to type that into the BBCs at my school and annoy the teachers...

Thanks guys for clarifying!? I just wondered as I'm experimenting with extraction times - not to correct any taste defect per se, but to try to get an optimal balance and flavour from my shots.

With the new IMS basket (18-22) I'm finding I have to grind at least 19/20g and have been sticking to about 32g out in roughly as many seconds but today read another post which mentioned 19g in and something like 38g out in 42 seconds or something - which is a monster yeild - a whole four sips as opposed to my long-time 2 with 17g in 27g out. I tried it and it tasted much sweeter (I'm still on my 1kg bag of Butterworth and Son - Espresso Blend roasted on 7th feb).

In theory, 19g should give 30.4g yield but I would probably never have considered going up as much as 38g yield and then I would have totally missed the flavour profile of this particular coffee. It seems the variables are many.

Do you guys push the boundaries in terms of yield and extraction times with new coffees or just stick when you have what you consider to be a good thing going?


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I just pulled 20g into 36.5g. 31 seconds.
> 
> What would that be classed as ?


Were you experimenting?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Well like Gary I have found that you seem to be able to get away with shots that would make no sense to even try on some machines and they are still drinkable, I had one shot of the Coffee Compass Sulawesi Kalossi when dialing in that ended up being 20g into 40g at 64 seconds as I just let it run to see what happened and it was very nice as well, now if I had tried that on the Classic or a Silvia it would have bypassed my mouth and gone straight to the sink.

It's all down to playing around and if you're happy with it then all is good-- a little bit like the pro audio mantra of "if it doesn't sound distorted it isn't" plus as you will know by now that what you initially learnt about in audio are simply guidelines and you know when you can ignore them and when not, well espresso is just the same.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Rule 1 = There are no rules.
> 
> Rule 2 = There is no rule 1. Whoever led you to believe there were rules should see rule 3.
> 
> Rule 3 = See Rule 1


Hey Gary, that's systemic! (systemic = circular as opposed to linear = cause and effect).


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> 10 Print rule 1
> 
> 20 got to line 10


No. Isn't 20 - 'throw a 6'?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> I'll be hiding in the broom cupboard until the post-apocalyptic, anarchic hoards are brought back under control...


Fat chance - rule 13


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Ok cool. Cheers fellas.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> No. Isn't 20 - 'throw a 6'?


you clearly never had the pleasure of programming a zx spectrum

and making the one in WHS Smiths say

Gillings is a W***er all over the screen


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

LOL ....WH Smiths the centre of cutting edge technology and learning in 1984 at least it was in Solihull anyway.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Milanski said:


> In theory, 19g should give 30.4g yield but I would probably never have considered going up as much as 38g yield and then I would have totally missed the flavour profile of this particular coffee. It seems the variables are many.
> 
> Do you guys push the boundaries in terms of yield and extraction times with new coffees or just stick when you have what you consider to be a good thing going?


There was no light in the broom cupboard, I got scared & had to come back out...

19g:30.4g yield is only correct/ideal at a given concentration...at 38g out (bang in the normale range on AndyS's chart that Boots posted) you may be hitting a more balanced yield than you were, but at a lower concentration (not saying that is bad or wrong). It depends on grind, intensity & solubility of the bean. "Espresso" can & has been be made as long as 4 or 5:1. Either you enjoy the shot at a different concentration (a question of preference) by pulling longer/shorter, or you grind finer to get the desired flavour balance at a higher concentration.

Pushing the boundaries would be pulling longer still, say a very low concentation in brewed coffee range, or a very short shot (much less than 1.5:1) at a very high concentration & still hitting a good yield...in either case, both beverages should have around 3.6g of that 19g dose dissolved into the coffee (more for an EK43 shot).

There may be no rules regarding "the best" brew ratio, within quite a large range, but there is also the inescapable reality of extraction, which you can't cheat, or bend.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> LOL ....WH Smiths the centre of cutting edge technology and learning in 1984 at least it was in Solihull anyway.


It still is cutting edge in parts of lincolnshire.....


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