# Best espresso only machine?



## Thwapy

Hi, I tend to only drink espresso and want to move on from my very quick and easy Tassimo to a proper espresso machine. Is the Gaggia Classic the way to go or if I only want to make espresso (and don't need a steam wand) is there something better out there?

My budget is £250, is there something a bit cheaper out there that would allow me to buy good quality machine and a grinder or just go for the Classic?

Thanks

Jay


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## Rhys

With that budget, you might be able to find a used Mazzer Super Jolly (won't be the best looking machine for this price, as long as it works fine) and a Gaggia Classic. Though trying to source a lucky ebay win might end you up with a couple of sheds. Alternately, a decent budget machine like a well looked after Classic or a La Pavoni could be in your range, coupled with a good manual grinder. The grinder is more important than the machine, so you don't want to buy an electric grinder you'll want to change in a few months when you find its limiting your machine. If you go for a manual grinder, you might be able to get a PID'd Classic for temp stability.


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## Thwapy

PID'd Classic for temp stability? Guessing that is a mod to a classic? Ami likely to get a super jolly and a machine for £250 when the grinder alone is north of £500 new? Excuse my lack of knowledge! Also what hand grinder would you recommend? Thanks


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## The Systemic Kid

A PID will keep temp more accurately. There are several units that can be fitted with varying degrees of features. Hand grinders come in price brands. Porlex, Skerton etc around £30. Big step up in grand consistency is the Felgrind at around £90. Then you have Lido and Hausgrind around £130 - both have same burr size as Felgrind at 40mm.


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## Thwapy

The La Pavoni look good but guessing fleabay is not the place to pick a well looked after machine up from? Are new Francis Francis X1's any good?


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## The Systemic Kid

Fleabay can throw up bargains and turkeys. You need to do your homework.


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## The Systemic Kid

Francis X1 are overpriced in terms of functionality - certainly at price new.


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## PeterF

The short answer is no. Forget PIDs at this stage, just get a brand new Gaggia Classic & use pre-ground coffee until you have saved up for a decent grinder for example a used Mazzer Super Jolly. Good luck.



Thwapy said:


> PID'd Classic for temp stability? Guessing that is a mod to a classic? Ami likely to get a super jolly and a machine for £250 when the grinder alone is north of £500 new? Excuse my lack of knowledge! Also what hand grinder would you recommend? Thanks


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## Dylan

PeterF said:


> The short answer is no. Forget PIDs at this stage, just get a brand new Gaggia Classic & use pre-ground coffee until you have saved up for a decent grinder for example a used Mazzer Super Jolly. Good luck.


No offense, but this is terrible advice.

If you can you actually want to buy an older style pre-philips Gaggia Classic, buying a brand new one is a horrendous waste of money when the older ones you can pick up for half the price are a better machine.

Using pre-ground coffee is just going to disappoint you and put you off making espresso/decent coffee. Any sensible advice is pretty much the opposite of this. If you are going to go down this path at all the very first step is freshly roasted, freshly ground coffee, it is by far and away the most important part of good coffee.

To the OP: Your budget is a little tight, if you could up it to £300 and are happy to keep an eye on our for sale section then you could pick up a grinder like the Sage Smart Grinder Pro for about £150 and a used Pre-philips Gaggia Classic for about £150 as well.

If you cant stretch your budget any more then you could start out with a grinder like the Iberital MC2, or one of the Graef variants. They aren't the best grinders but will still produce a infinitely better cup that hobbling along with pre ground coffee.


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## h1udd

PeterF said:


> & use pre-ground coffee


GAH !!!! ..... no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no ..... preground goes stale very quickly, but most importantly, the grind setting can change daily to keep the pour in the zone, beans and grinder above anything else IMO


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## yardbent

I'm just a begineer too, but after a lot of reading and advice here - for about £200 i settled for

used Gaggia Classic and a used Graef CM800 grinder - both from here - both mint

dont forget you'll need

scales - £10 eBay - 600g x 0.1 gram [600g so you can use under the portafilter spout with a cup ]

a 58mm tamper £20

some airtight jars for the coffee

i like chocolate

Coffee Compass does a Selection pack of 3 x 500g espresso beans [choose 3 out of 6 depending on your taste] - £22..

..........a good buy to get started with the CFUK discount

GOOD LUCK ............!!!

ps

buying from members here ensures you get well-maintained equipment

IMO - learn to do it 'properly' on basic kit before upgrading - unless cost is no object....

the kit above will sell later for what you paid

----------------------------------------------------


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## Rhys

A cheap hand grinder, fresh beans and an AeroPress will give you a far better cup of coffee than an expensive machine and stale pre-ground..

Anyone who recommends using pre-ground on here will be banned for life and given a Mellow Birds subscription... Pffft

Also, as mentioned, forget new Classics - to me they tried to fix a design that wasn't broken and as much as I love my jump to a La Pavoni, I wouldn't recommend it to someone who hasn't used a proper machine before as its a steep learning curve (at least if you choke a Classic it just vents the pressure to the drip tray when the pumps switched off..)

If you can't afford everything at once, find a nice Super Jolly or kitchen friendly Mignon and an AeroPress/Chemex etc. Then build up the budget for a nice machine. At least this way you will have very tasty coffee from the start (even though it's not espresso) just a thought.


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## Thwapy

Thanks for all the really helpful replies. I currently have an aeropress and luckily I do grind my own coffee but, yes I must confess, I grind with a 'secret santa' present from a couple of years ago (hangs head in shame) I also have a Tassimo and I am sat here drinking 'espresso' at the moment, its convenient yet crap ;-)

So just to clarify:

I am better off buying a second hand Gaggia (preferably pre 2009 or not?) than going for a new one? Would that still be the case if I can get a new classic for

I need to get my head around spending more on a grinder than on the machine itself?

I would still prefer to get the machine first, would a

Thanks!


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## risky

Thwapy said:


> Thanks for all the really helpful replies. I currently have an aeropress and luckily I do grind my own coffee but, yes I must confess, I grind with a 'secret santa' present from a couple of years ago (hangs head in shame) I also have a Tassimo and I am sat here drinking 'espresso' at the moment, its convenient yet crap ;-)
> 
> So just to clarify:
> 
> I am better off buying a second hand Gaggia (preferably pre 2009 or not?) than going for a new one? Would that still be the case if I can get a new classic for
> 
> I need to get my head around spending more on a grinder than on the machine itself?
> 
> I would still prefer to get the machine first, would a
> 
> Thanks!


A cheap hand grinder won't work for espresso. Though it would be a good setup with some fresh roasted beans since you've already got an aeropress. You ideally want a pre-2012 Gaggia,, though the pre-2009 ones are arguably marginally better.

If you're prepared to take a punt on an eBay Gaggia, of which there are loads. You could get one for sub-£100. This would give you enough money left over for a second hand Eureka Mignon?


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## insatiableOne

Rhys said:


> Anyone who recommends using pre-ground on here will be banned for life and given a Mellow Birds subscription... Pffft


My favorite read here yet!



Rhys said:


> If you can't afford everything at once, find a nice Super Jolly or kitchen friendly Mignon and an AeroPress/Chemex etc. Then build up the budget for a nice machine. At least this way you will have very tasty coffee from the start (even though it's not espresso) just a thought.


That is what I did...twice in my lifetime now. Every time my espresso machine died I was in a financial bind. I would rather use a french press & hand grinder & suffer.. than to use a drip maker, or some other disastrous frankienwhatever trying to do what is not possible. Better to save up for a respectable machine & grinder within your scope of expectations. If you are looking for cafe quality on a budget better go for a lever & hand grinder to start with. It is financially obtainable for most. + offer the best in cup for the price. Next up is your suggestions already given.

If you only want restaurant quality, a french press variant can outproduce those expectations all day long. Given that you are using a → High End Grinder ←

Remember you can purchase the best Quality made hand grinder, for less than any grinder anyone suggested already at a used price. The quality difference would be quite noticeable as well. I mean $400.00 for new BEST in the world hand grinder.








400 USD =








265.98 GBP


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## PeterF

The Lido 2 is the hand grinder to go for. It's also good enough to grind Espresso & it's built like a tank! Good luck

http://coffeehit.co.uk/lido-2-hand-coffee-grinder


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## Phil104

Thwapy - it would be worth sending a PM to Mark a gaggiamanualservice (he's on the Forum) to see what he has by way of a classic Classic.


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## Jon

Phil104 said:


> Thwapy - it would be worth sending a PM to Mark a gaggiamanualservice (he's on the Forum) to see what he has by way of a classic Classic.


Timmyj-someone (forget his precise username) seems to have a few from time to time too.


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## Thwapy

I have PM'd him, he has nothing at the moment which is a shame but I am happy to wait a little while to pick up a good second hand machine.

I get that I need a good quality grinder to go with a machine but despite me saying my budget is £250 people keep telling me to get grinders north of £200 on their own! I really do appreciate all the help and advice but advising me to get a hand grinder for more than my total budget..? ;-)

OK, I am definitely going for a 2nd hand Gaggia Classic, possibly pre 2009 if I can grab a good one (what ever that looks like) from eBay or from on here. I am looking at £130-150. That leaves me £100 for a grinder, slightly more if I can push past my £250 a little bit....

Grinder wise, would this be ok for starters? http://www.johnlewis.com/graef-cm702-coffee-grinder/p993146?sku=232860329&kpid=232860329&s_kenid=e349c312-016f-4cd5-a57b-f5b1ff03da8f&s_kwcid=402x367621&tmad=c&tmcampid=73

Thanks again!


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## PickledOnion

Watch this to see why grinding your own beans is a must.


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## Dylan

Do be careful with second hand gag his classics. People really mistreat them. Look up the water hardness of the area you are buying from and prioritise ones that look clean and well kept. Feel free to post links up here for the members here to assess for you.

Last thing you want is an old scaled up classic.


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## jeebsy

Dylan said:


> Last thing you want is an old scaled up classic.


...but they are dead easy to fix.


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## Thwapy

I TOTALLY get grinding my own beans is the best bet. I get that spending the £250 on a grinder and just using my aeropress will give me superior tasting coffee to buying pre ground coffee or using a cheap (sub £100) grinder. I just want to make the best coffee I can with the budget I have. I just want better tasting espresso than I currently get with my Tassimo. If that means (until I can afford better) its below average to what I could get if I spent £500 then so be it. Please remember that for you guys on here, its your 'thing'.

My 'thing' is canoeing, I offer advice on forums and a lot of the time this advice relates to equipment, a bit like on here! If someone comes on and asks what paddle to buy for £50 I don't tell them to go off and buy a £200 plus bespoke paddle, even though you can feel the difference. If they are after a new boat and have £600 to spend I tend not to tell them they need something at over twice the price or even more just because I have it and know for sure the benefits of owning something at that price point and even thought the performance gains are huge. I hope that's a good enough analogy and please do not think I am trying to be difficult or ungrateful, I only have £250 to spend for now, I would like that to be on the machine and buy a cheaper grinder to 'get me through' the first 6-12 months.

You have to remember that I am yet to be a coffee geek! That WILL come in time i am sure but I do need to stay married ;-)


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## coffeechap

Thwapy said:


> I TOTALLY get grinding my own beans is the best bet. I get that spending the £250 on a grinder and just using my aeropress will give me superior tasting coffee to buying pre ground coffee or using a cheap (sub £100) grinder. I just want to make the best coffee I can with the budget I have. I just want better tasting espresso than I currently get with my Tassimo. If that means (until I can afford better) its below average to what I could get if I spent £500 then so be it. Please remember that for you guys on here, its your 'thing'.
> 
> My 'thing' is canoeing, I offer advice on forums and a lot of the time this advice relates to equipment, a bit like on here! If someone comes on and asks what paddle to buy for £50 I don't tell them to go off and buy a £200 plus bespoke paddle, even though you can feel the difference. If they are after a new boat and have £600 to spend I tend not to tell them they need something at over twice the price or even more just because I have it and know for sure the benefits of owning something at that price point and even thought the performance gains are huge. I hope that's a good enough analogy and please do not think I am trying to be difficult or ungrateful, I only have £250 to spend for now, I would like that to be on the machine and buy a cheaper grinder to 'get me through' the first 6-12 months.
> 
> You have to remember that I am yet to be a coffee geek! That WILL come in time i am sure but I do need to stay married ;-)


you make a good point it is easy for us to suggest spending more than your budget, however a lot of the advice comes from experience (as does yours with canoeing) and most agree that spending a little more on a grinder now in preparation for an espresso machine is a good idea, however, you can get a really good grinder for £100 if you are prepared to have a hunt about, decent quality commercial grinders come up on here for that mark, granted it wont be a super jolly but you could get a brassila rr45 for that money or a compak k6 or anyone of many other less well known grinders out there, that perform as well as a mazzer grinder.

having a budget and sticking to it is a good idea as you can get really carried away on here at times.


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## GrahamS

i picked up a gaggia classic for £84 and a rancilio rocky grinder for £120 from a well known online auction site.


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## The Systemic Kid

Nice one - there are bargains out there if you know what you are doing.


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## Dylan

Thwapy,

From the perspective of people giving advice here, often people come on with a limited budget like yourself and the advice to spend a little more makes a difference and they stretch that a little, not suggesting you should if you can't do this, but it is sensible advice if you see what I'm saying.

You can't pick up a better machine than the Classic in your budget, even if you spent all £250 on it, as the new Classics are worse than the old ones you may as well buy second hand. As this only eats up about £100 of your budget it leaves the £150 for a grinder. As has been said, that can buy you a very good grinder with patience.

There also a good few people who just have a good grinder and then make aero press or brewed, sometimes new members come on asking about espresso machines and it turns out their favorite coffee is a long black and they would be better off saving their pennies and buying a better grinder. Being a forum there is always going to be a large range of advice and opinions!


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## Rhys

As coffechap says, the Brasilia RR45 is a good grinder for the Classic (I've got a knackered one, and it was ok for my Classic). They also come under the Rossi name, but if you look for one source an 80 step one - not the 40 step. Being stepped they aren't as adjustable as a stepless like a Mazzer, but they are a lot cheaper.


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## Thwapy

Ok a week on and I thought I would do an update and ask for more advice...

I have bought a Gaggia Classic from Mark, I am looking forward to recieving it and want some advice on what other basics I need.

Tamper - Motta looks good, anything better at that price or cheaper?

Scales - any 0.1g cheap ones off eBay ok or?

What else????

Whats a good espresso coffee bean to start with?

I also need advice on a sub £100 grinder, second hand is fine, something from the sale section on her or I am happy geating something from eBay if someone has seen something worth looking at. I just need something to start me off!

thanks in advance


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## Rhys

The cheap ebay scales are perfect. You can always put them in a freezer bag if they are going to get wet.

Motta tampers are fine, I have one with mine (bought used off here).

What beans depends on what you like. Square Mile Red Brick is nice, so are Casa Espresso beans.

Sub £100 grinder, Rossi/Brasilia RR45... or a hand grinder if you want to save for a better electric one.


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## yardbent

> =Thwapy;375726..............
> 
> I have bought a Gaggia Classic from Mark, .............
> 
> Tamper - Motta looks good, anything better at that price or cheaper?
> 
> Scales - any 0.1g cheap ones off eBay ok or?
> 
> What else????
> 
> Whats a good espresso coffee bean to start with?
> 
> I also need advice on a sub £100 grinder, second hand is fine, ........................


pleased to see you've stuck with your budget.! canna go wrong with a Classic from Mark...









the Gaggia basket is 58mm ID - a Motta tamper can be had for £19 delivered

should you buy a (better) VST basket =£22 you will be told you need a 58.35 tamper

once again the 58mm will 'do' if on a budget

I just got a 1000g x 0.1g scale from eBay at about £6

1000.? cos i use mine under the cup to monitor the yield as it flows

note the readout faces you - handy

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/400820269585?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

espresso - try the 3pack special from COFFEE COMPASS for £22 - CFUK discount +pp

you choose any 3 from 6

http://www.coffeecompass.co.uk/shop/espresso-range/espresso-selection.html

PM me for the Discount Code - dont publish on a public forum

Grinder - you'll soon get fed-up hand grinding for espresso [ yes I'm prepared to be told 'rubbish'.}

i bought a Graef CM800 - available new from Germany circa £110 - link somewhere on the Forum - do a search

or wait for a better used model - the Graef is 'stepped' which means you can only adjust the grind in increments

keep us posted


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## Dylan

There should be plenty of S/H options for under £100. You will likely end up with an ex-commercial with doser, here are a few to look at for you.

Santos (rebadged I think). Might need new burrs, comes with knockbox, which is nice £40

Iberital, ex comm £50

A La Spaz rebadge, with paint spats £100

Brasilla RR45 ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LARGE-Pro...800224?hash=item464571dae0:g:ax8AAOSwFGNWTIJy

Elektra grinder ebay


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## APurpleChair

yardbent said:


> i bought a Graef CM800


I am also considering this grinder. How have you experiences been?



yardbent said:


> pleased to see you've stuck with your budget.! canna go wrong with a Classic from Mark...


Who is Mark? is he some mythical Gaggia Classic seller? Or is this sarcasm? (So hard to tell when you're new to a forum...







)


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## Rhys

APurpleChair said:


> Who is Mark? is he some mythical Gaggia Classic seller? Or is this sarcasm? (So hard to tell when you're new to a forum...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


He sells Classics in the sales section, often refurbing them and adding the larger solenoid that came with pre-Philips machines.


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## Thwapy

Some great advice, Mark is a top guy and well worth seeking out if your in the hunt for a Classic!


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## yardbent

APurpleChair said:


> I am also considering this grinder. How have you experiences been?................


*CM800...................*well pleased

but -----I bought a large variety of 250g beans to sample their tastes- - using 16g/basket means i get about 15 shots/bag

being a newbie - i used 5 or more shots to get the grind right for that particular bean

then had to start all over again with the next bean sample.......









advice on here was to buy 500g/1kg to assess the bean.......AGREE...









the CM800 is fine for me (on a Pension budget)

prob upgrade next year to a Eureka Mignon @ £200 ... if you can, i would buy this (or similar) to begin with

the CM800 is stepped - ie grind is in incremental steps - not a problem so far

and the top burr carrier can be adjusted to deliver a 'finer' range - I'm still on the original factory setting

I'm on grind step #8 ( #1 being the finest) and getting [typically] 16g in, 36g out in 25 secs for a nice espresso

hope that helps....


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