# Sage duo



## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

Looking at getting this as my first machine.

Is it a decent starter machine to go for or are there better out there for the same sort of money ??

Any feedback from current users of it to the ups and downs of it.


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## Gaz| (Nov 29, 2017)

This is currently my first machine Too, and is a great first machine. Still on a steep learning curve but definitely some great coffee being made and a joy to use.

Try out the sage section on the forum and the DTP thread for loads of mods people have done to theirs.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

This is my 5th machine and I'm very happy with it. I'd say this goes all the way from starter machine to budget-orientated-semi-advanced user


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Right now the Sage DTP is probably the best value for money starter machine, built in PID and pre infusion make it stand out among older favoured starter machines like an unmodded gaggia classic or rancilio silvia. Extremely fast heat up time, auto purges and a great steam arm are some of its advantages aswell as the aforementioned PID and preinfusion. Its quite a good looking machine too, atleast in my opinion.

As with all machines it has its cons, these include a non-standard portafilter size (53mm) means accessories like distribution tools and tampers aren't too common, small drip tray and fixed pre infusion (You can not vary the length of the pre-infusion stage) as well as a fixed temperature PID that doesn't display temperature and lack of 3-way solenoid valve can also lead to soggy pucks.

As of right now there is also a huge Duo-Temp pro community on this forum, there is a 90 odd page DTP owners thread filled with handy info and details of modifications some members have chosen to do aswell as alot of questions you may have on the machine answered.

Some members have been able to fit 3-way solenoid valves, LED lights, pressure profiling dimmer mods and have made naked portafilters, precision tampers and fitted some of the precision items designed for the la spaziale machines to their machines.

And when I say some members i'm really talking about one in particular that has been able to achieve most of this and he should be able to provide you with more of the ins and outs of the machine.... @joey24dirt


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Rakesh said:


> Right now the Sage DTP is probably the best value for money starter machine, built in PID and pre infusion make it stand out among older favoured starter machines like an unmodded gaggia classic or rancilio silvia. Extremely fast heat up time, auto purges and a great steam arm are some of its advantages aswell as the aforementioned PID and preinfusion. Its quite a good looking machine too, atleast in my opinion.
> 
> As with all machines it has its cons, these include a non-standard portafilter size (53mm) means accessories like distribution tools and tampers aren't too common, small drip tray and fixed pre infusion (You can not vary the length of the pre-infusion stage) as well as a fixed temperature PID that doesn't display temperature and lack of 3-way solenoid valve can also lead to soggy pucks.
> 
> ...


Haha yes I do like the DTP. Great machines and I would alway recommend, I just don't like to too often for fear of getting on people nerves 

Partnered up with a decent grinder and beans it can produce very tasty drinks.

The mods aren't essential to get good results either so you can get after that brown elixir straight out of the box.

Have you had any thoughts about grinders?


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

joey24dirt said:


> Haha yes I do like the DTP. Great machines and I would alway recommend, I just don't like to too often for fear of getting on people nerves
> 
> Partnered up with a decent grinder and beans it can produce very tasty drinks.
> 
> ...


O have put a post asking about grinders in the grinder section as thought that would be best place for it. But i really dont know what to look for in a grinder. Im totally new to this, as currently i have a tassimo


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Andycoffee said:


> O have put a post asking about grinders in the grinder section as thought that would be best place for it. But i really dont know what to look for in a grinder. Im totally new to this, as currently i have a tassimo


I suppose it comes down to size of the grinder and cost. The sage grinders will perform well and can be picked up fairly cheap though.

Mignons are a popular choice as are the mazzer super jolly.


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

joey24dirt said:


> I suppose it comes down to size of the grinder and cost. The sage grinders will perform well and can be picked up fairly cheap though.
> 
> Mignons are a popular choice as are the mazzer super jolly.


Its just the cost of those machines thats putting me off i guess the sage machine would be a good start. Just dint want to get ine then in 6 months spend a load more on a better grinder.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Andycoffee said:


> Its just the cost of those machines thats putting me off i guess the sage machine would be a good start. Just dint want to get ine then in 6 months spend a load more on a better grinder.


It's definitely a tough call. I had the sage grinder and was happy with it, but my tinkering ways took over and I wanted to get a mazzer to refurb for the fun of it. So that's where I am now.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Another satisfied DTP user. I haven't done any mods and don't really intend to as I'm no electronics or metalworking wizard. But it still makes great coffee out of the box. But as Joey and others have said, you will need to spend something on the grinder. Like several others I have a secondhand Mazzer Super Jolly. They regularly appear in the classifieds here for under £200. Otherwise I would have gone for the Mignon, new or secondhand. If you can stretch to one of these two, I think they would keep you happy for a bit longer than the Sage grinder. Good luck and report back with your decisions and purchases. As you probably know the Sage DTP has been available recently at Lakeland, Amazon and John Lewis for the bargain price of £250 - a great buy at that price.


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

joey24dirt said:


> It's definitely a tough call. I had the sage grinder and was happy with it, but my tinkering ways took over and I wanted to get a mazzer to refurb for the fun of it. So that's where I am now.


I think i may get the DTP and then buy some preground coffee while i save up for the grinder and spend a bit more on a decent used mazzer or mignon.


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

Banjoman said:


> Another satisfied DTP user. I haven't done any mods and don't really intend to as I'm no electronics or metalworking wizard. But it still makes great coffee out of the box. But as Joey and others have said, you will need to spend something on the grinder. Like several others I have a secondhand Mazzer Super Jolly. They regularly appear in the classifieds here for under £200. Otherwise I would have gone for the Mignon, new or secondhand. If you can stretch to one of these two, I think they would keep you happy for a bit longer than the Sage grinder. Good luck and report back with your decisions and purchases. As you probably know the Sage DTP has been available recently at Lakeland, Amazon and John Lewis for the bargain price of £250 - a great buy at that price.


Yes ive seen the sage on offer at a few places which is what got my attention. I will indeed report back amd post up and purchases.


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## kdr152 (Dec 27, 2017)

Sage DTP vote here. Had for around 3 weeks and pulled a few interesting and a few decent shots. Collecting the bits at the moment in order to begin the journey!









Its all about the science and the tweaking to gain the best taste!

Grinder and knock box ASAP for me. Using pre-ground from HasBean and will do so until grinder is bought. Will stretch to a Mignon so as not to have to upgrade too soon. Wanted a Gaggia Classic initially and read far too many posts on them and others but the time to brew was a big part of my decision. I wanted a machine able to go without having to heat up. The Sage is ready to roll in under 3 minutes. If only I could get the unit to switch on via a wire free link, I could do so as soon as alarm went off!







(Project for Joey24 maybe?)

The 90 page post as mentioned above is great and will give loads of detail. Smaller tampers are not an issue - Joey24dirt may be able to twist your arm with a custom tamper? Stunning things! Sage DTP can be modified a little but will void warranty!

Lakeland 3 year satisfaction guarantee is a bonus but not sure how it would stand up after 3 years! Was deciding factor for me and price at 250 helped!

In conclusion - Im a newbie and pulled something resembling a double within 20 minutes of setting up etc. Its pretty easy to drive. Looks great and makes a great machine to learn the art. Gaggia and others have the heritage but are more complicated and more needy. Idea for me is to buy a Gaggia Classic, strip and play with when I feel confident enough to do so. The Sage will is enough for now!

Happy hunting. NB - COFFEE AND THIS FORUM ARE ADDICTIVE! The people that come here are great and will offer as much help as you need.


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## RedDaddy67 (Dec 30, 2012)

Andycoffee said:


> I think i may get the DTP and then buy some preground coffee while i save up for the grinder and spend a bit more on a decent used mazzer or mignon.


I'm in exactly the same situation

I even have £250 sitting in my account since my birthday nearly a month ago as yet not touched as I've been undecided on what to do.

I too am likely to spend it on this machine as my 1st foray into learning and then save for the grinder.


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

RedDaddy67 said:


> I'm in exactly the same situation
> 
> I even have £250 sitting in my account since my birthday nearly a month ago as yet not touched as I've been undecided on what to do.
> 
> I too am likely to spend it on this machine as my 1st foray into learning and then save for the grinder.


I ordered mine from lakeland this morning. 3 year warranty is a no brainer really.


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## RedDaddy67 (Dec 30, 2012)

Andycoffee said:


> I ordered mine from lakeland this morning. 3 year warranty is a no brainer really.


I'm going to follow suit my friend and bite the bullet, I've got to do this otherwise I'll only spend my cash on something useless that can't make coffee and that's not good.

Grinder can wait.

Good luck bud


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## RedDaddy67 (Dec 30, 2012)

RedDaddy67 said:


> I'm going to follow suit my friend and bite the bullet, I've got to do this otherwise I'll only spend my cash on something useless that can't make coffee and that's not good.
> 
> Grinder can wait.
> 
> Good luck bud


The deed is done, paid the extra 5 golden nuggets for speedy delivery by Sunday


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

RedDaddy67 said:


> The deed is done, paid the extra 5 golden nuggets for speedy delivery by Sunday


Good man @RedDaddy67 i went in deep today and ordered a Eureka Mignon aswell. Im going to be in serious trouble when they turn up lol


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## RedDaddy67 (Dec 30, 2012)

Andycoffee said:


> Good man @RedDaddy67 i went in deep today and ordered a Eureka Mignon aswell. Im going to be in serious trouble when they turn up lol


Ooh sweet, I'm going to wait a few weeks and be good, I was thinking of using the council tax that isn't paid next month but our microwave needs replacing now so can't wing it...

Sell a small child?


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## kdr152 (Dec 27, 2017)

Andycoffee - will be interested to see how you get on dialing it in. Have a kilo of Ethiopian beans to help with dialing my new Mignon in.

Will be using the so called chirping method!







. Power on and turn the dial til the burrs chirp then back 1/2 turn and the fun begins. David at BB did same and pulled some great shots when dialing!!


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## Teejay (Dec 4, 2017)

RedDaddy67 said:


> The deed is done, paid the extra 5 golden nuggets for speedy delivery by Sunday


I did the same, daft not too really


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

@joey24dirt i believe we need a conversation about tampers and portefilters


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Andycoffee said:


> @joey24dirt i believe we need a conversation about tampers and portefilters


Haha ok. Send me a pm and I'll get back to you tonight. Sundays are a bit hectic


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## SheepAreOnFire1903 (Jul 8, 2017)

Andycoffee said:


> Good man @RedDaddy67 i went in deep today and ordered a Eureka Mignon aswell. Im going to be in serious trouble when they turn up lol


Let us know how you get on. I have a Sage DTP which I've had for a few weeks now. Next on the list is a Mignon. Would be interested to hear how you rate the coffee


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

@joey24dirt pm sent earlier. Been a busy few days for me ordered some towels off @MildredM


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## RedDaddy67 (Dec 30, 2012)

SheepAreOnFire1903 said:


> Let us know how you get on. I have a Sage DTP which I've had for a few weeks now. Next on the list is a Mignon. Would be interested to hear how you rate the coffee


Will do, it arrived today, unpacked cleaned and checked, as I'm saving for a grinder I'm in a spot of limbo at the moment...

I did grab a small bag of ground beans from a local to work roaster just to try it out but as I feared without dialing in to my machine they've ground too fine and I'm struggling for flow through the puck.

I did manage to get a fairly reasonable coffee after my 3rd attempt using the double shot basket very lightly tamped, milk steamed nicely on my very 1st attempt and my 15 yr old loved it so alls not too bad

Not a bad weekend all in all cheers, need to get a grinder for sure, a Mignon is on my hunting list too but if new won't be until another month..

Forest beat the yam yams too so it's going to be a good week


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

RedDaddy67 said:


> Will do, it arrived today, unpacked cleaned and checked, as I'm saving for a grinder I'm in a spot of limbo at the moment...
> 
> I did grab a small bag of ground beans from a local to work roaster just to try it out but as I feared without dialing in to my machine they've ground too fine and I'm struggling for flow through the puck.
> 
> ...


All my gear should be here tuesday so ill let you know how i get on. Been a very expensive weekend for me but cant argue of i em8d up with a nice coffee.


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## RedDaddy67 (Dec 30, 2012)

Andycoffee said:


> All my gear should be here tuesday so ill let you know how i get on. Been a very expensive weekend for me but cant argue of i em8d up with a nice coffee.


Fantastic, I'm not far behind....quick question, when I lock in my portafilter the handle isn't square on to the centre, it's a good inch or so to the right, is this normal?


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## Teejay (Dec 4, 2017)

RedDaddy67 said:


> Fantastic, I'm not far behind....quick question, when I lock in my portafilter the handle isn't square on to the centre, it's a good inch or so to the right, is this normal?


Must be, mine is the same. I've noticed that it works ok when it's straight our at at 90°


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## RedDaddy67 (Dec 30, 2012)

Splendid, thanks for that, put my mind at rest, no niggles now.


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## Teejay (Dec 4, 2017)

Had my first few goes today. The first couple nothing came out. Loosened the grind and got something out not good and it was binned. Slowly tightened it back and by the third go was getting something usable for cappacino. Lighter tamp too, it all sounds so easy but in reality it's all a bit scientific!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If people are new to these machines I'd strongly suggest that they tamp and use the razor tool to set the basket fill height. That applies even if they have scales and the best grinder on the planet and what ever they are putting in the basket. It's pretty decent way of getting a weight to use in the future when people are using scales. Saves messing around with actual weight as the grinder settings are changed. A big advantage really and even more so if the grinder has a time setting on it. Trying to adjust that for each grinder setting is a right pain. I'm using a extreme example of that at the moment. The basket will hold just over 14g of coffee at finer settings. It's currently being filled correctly at a coarser setting with 13g.

That just leaves tamping as a variable. When I first asked some questions on here a useful view of that popped up. You shouldn't use it as a variable, the basic idea is to fully compress the grounds. All I do is strain a little as I can keep that consistent. We recently moved the machine so the tamping mat is higher than it was. My tamp turns out to be about 12kg now. If I push as hard as I can it's a bit over 20kg. Some including me check it on scales often bathroom scales. Just to make that fun they need to be where the tamping mat is. The main thing is that it needs to be the same all of the time to within a few kg.

Once things are sorted with the razor tool a bit more or less coffee can be used. When I use it I tamp again afterwards just in case the puck has been disturbed however I have never ever seen any signs of it doing that. If the grinds went down further in the 2nd tamp then I must have used a much higher level and it would be hard to notice anyway. I did try really leaning on the tamper for a while. What I found was that providing the fill level was correct and the weight of grounds the same it didn't really make much difference to what came out.

John

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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

I don't know if I agree with you ajohn, if someone has a decent set of scales I'd recommend that people use them when trying to set up thier machine. It allows the punter to communicate how much they are putting in and how much is coming out to the forum experts. Introducing another variable (how much does the razor result in the basket, is it always consistent) is just one more bit of confusion.

If the punter doesn't have scales, then it's better than nothing.


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

As im still waiting for all my stuff to turn up i cant comment on how the mignon or the duo work. But from what i have read on here the key is consistently with everything you do.

So i have got scales to weigh coffee in and espresso out.

I could be wrong but i believe the purpose of the razor is to check the basket fill level to make sure you are leaving a gap.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jimbocz said:


> I don't know if I agree with you ajohn, if someone has a decent set of scales I'd recommend that people use them when trying to set up thier machine. It allows the punter to communicate how much they are putting in and how much is coming out to the forum experts. Introducing another variable (how much does the razor result in the basket, is it always consistent) is just one more bit of confusion.
> 
> If the punter doesn't have scales, then it's better than nothing.


From my use they are consistent. The only scope for variation is not keeping them vertical. The main point I was making anyway is that for some one new to these machines they will get things in the right ball park. That can take a while if just scales are used so even if they are used just once to get some idea of the weight the basket takes they have their uses. I've gone a bit further and used them to sort out grinder settings. When I am there I then worry about weight. I know what it was as I weighed it before pulling the shot. Then I play with weight.








When we bought the BE we eventually noticed that the Sage tamper could show that things were likely to be a bit better and took no notice of the razor. If we had used that things would have progressed a lot more quickly. It's a crackpot idea that works - pity it doesn't hoover up what's scraped off too but the video on how to use it shows one way of removing them. BE against a DTP - can't comment about things associated with a used pucks as the machines are too different.








Should have read the manual more thoroughly too - it even mentions flushing the portafiter. What they say about extraction though might be ok with the double but could be misleading for people that drink long black style drinks and or the use single. It seems from other comments that Sage grinders or even which grinder can have an effect on that aspect as well.

John

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## kdr152 (Dec 27, 2017)

My Portafilter seems to Lock to right also so expect ok. Also noticed the channels under - where coffee comes from - can be moved/ loose? No issue but did wonder.

So - Mignon - ground about 1/2 kg of beans through yesterday. Used the chirping method - no beans in and wait til the burrs engage then dial back a bit. If honest, it was trial and error but now using 17.5g beans through the Mignon and pulling a double in about 26-28 seconds. Tastes good to me and tried finer - choked the machine, so think I'm on right lines.

Mignon is a great thing. Using it on demand and not with timer yet - may play with this?? But - it's pretty easy to drive. Issue - is my espresso ok or poor?? Compared to high street franchises outlets, it's positively nectar!!

Using Bella B Milk Buster - strong and fruity to me and very palatable. Adjusted Mignon to give a bit finer earlier and lengthened the pull.

The grinder suits the DTP - simple to understand and easy to use. It clumps but prodded with a spoon and tamped it's no problem.

To compare - used pre-ground and pulled using a pressurised basket and got lots of fluff. Now pulling using non-pressurised and delivering something that resembles an espresso! Clears a bit like guiness so getting there.


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

Well everything has turned up today mignon and duo plus a load of other bits. Sadly im on call and its all still in the boxes. Out tomorrow night so looks like im waiting till Thursday to finally get going


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## Jonnytaxi (Jan 8, 2018)

Hi All, new member here so I hope you don't mind me chirping in on this thread. I currently have a delonghi machine that was given to me, and after 2 weeks I am already looking at upgrading to a DTP and 1 or 2 separate grinders ( as I also like to us my French press, and I've been told its better to get a separate grinder than use one for both grinds ). My coffee supplier Ed at Eds Coffee House in Coventry ( shameless plug, lol ), currently grinds my coffee for me, but I really want the freshness of grinding myself. I also have a tendency to tinker with things, starting little projects, so I wanted to know what @joey24dirt mods he has done and what improvements it mate?

Thanks in advance.

Jon


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

Jonnytaxi said:


> Hi All, new member here so I hope you don't mind me chirping in on this thread. I currently have a delonghi machine that was given to me, and after 2 weeks I am already looking at upgrading to a DTP and 1 or 2 separate grinders ( as I also like to us my French press, and I've been told its better to get a separate grinder than use one for both grinds ). My coffee supplier Ed at Eds Coffee House in Coventry ( shameless plug, lol ), currently grinds my coffee for me, but I really want the freshness of grinding myself. I also have a tendency to tinker with things, starting little projects, so I wanted to know what @joey24dirt mods he has done and what improvements it mate?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jon


There is a dedicated "DTP Owners Club" thread, if you have a look through that, it should contain all the info you're looking for


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Jonnytaxi said:


> Hi All, new member here so I hope you don't mind me chirping in on this thread. I currently have a delonghi machine that was given to me, and after 2 weeks I am already looking at upgrading to a DTP and 1 or 2 separate grinders ( as I also like to us my French press, and I've been told its better to get a separate grinder than use one for both grinds ). My coffee supplier Ed at Eds Coffee House in Coventry ( shameless plug, lol ), currently grinds my coffee for me, but I really want the freshness of grinding myself. I also have a tendency to tinker with things, starting little projects, so I wanted to know what @joey24dirt mods he has done and what improvements it mate?
> 
> Thanks in advance.
> 
> Jon


I can certainly try and answer some of your questions. Always happy to help


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## Andycoffee (Jan 15, 2018)

Finally getting the hang of this now. 16g unpressurised basket 28 second extraction time and 2oz of espresso from that.

Currently using Rave Signature blend coffee

Also massive thanks to @MildredM for my towels









Sorry cant figure out why my pics always show the wrong way


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Andycoffee said:


> View attachment 31896
> 
> 
> Finally getting the hang of this now. 16g unpressurised basket 28 second extraction time and 2oz of espresso from that.
> ...


If you crop them so they are square they usually end up the right way.

Looking good


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## rsnidjik (Nov 4, 2018)

Andycoffee said:


> Also massive thanks to @MildredM for my towels
> 
> View attachment 31897
> 
> ...


A few things you could try. There are threads elsewhere that discuss this in more detail, but I'll try to hit the main points:

(1) As you press the shutter button -- likely this means touching it on your phone's screen -- apply pressure firmly then, holding that pressure, gently twist your finger about 70 degrees to the left (counterclockwise). Some use their thumb. It really depends on what feels best for you.

(2) Get a good timer capable of measure to a thousandth of a second. It's a hefty investment but will pay off over time, I promise. Use the timer to carefully gauge the time that your finger -- or thumb -- is applied to the screen of your phone. (If you're using a standalone camera, there's an entirely different approach that will be needed, but most newbies are able to get by with a camera app on a phone.)

Once you've measured the time of initial pressure (TIP), use this rough guide to come up with a set of ratios that works best for you. By "ratio", I'm referring to the amount of time pressure is applied (TIP) prior to performing the counterclockwise twist maneuver compared to the amount of time that it takes you to perform the counterclockwise twist maneuver (TCTM). You may think this attention to detail is excessive. I assure you, it's not. Many phone-photographers who want to document their shots will confirm what I'm saying.

Here's the rough guide (remember: it's rough!):

TIP : TCTM

0.025 : 0.002

0.025 : 0.004

0.031 : 0.006

0.035 : 1.000

That last ratio may look out of place. I provide it because, depending on the age of your phone, the ambient temperature, any callouses or other irregularities on your finger or thumb, you may arrive at a measurement that seems to be an outlier. It's not. It really depends on your equipment and the condition of your skin. Only by conducting these measurements yourself will you be able to arrive at the ratio that give you the best results and produces coffee photography that is properly positioned and that you're truly happy with.

(3) Flush your phone regularly. I can't over-stress this. By "flushing", I mean to power down COMPLETELY, wait 10-15 seconds, then power up again. (Again, standalone cameras will have different flushing requirements, but the principle is the same. Check the forum for threads about this.)

(4) Consider a film camera. You'd be amazed how many users here eventually find that, for really high-quality coffee photography, they need to scour eBay or local thrift shops for decent 35mm photographic equipment. You can still order film from a number of places, and, though you'll need to wait for your photos to come back from the lab, you'll see right away that the results are worth it. Big plus: these old 35mm cameras DO NOT REQUIRE FLUSHING. Anyone who tells you that they do doesn't know what he or she is talking about. Trust me.

There's much more that could be said, but I'll leave it at that for now. Let me know how it goes or, better yet, try these techniques and post your results. We'd all benefit.

--rsnidjik


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