# DF64 grinder paired with sage duo temp pro



## Hall787 (17 d ago)

I've been working with a Sage smart grinder and Sage duo temp pro for about 7 years since I first got into coffee but increasingly am getting frustrated with how inconsistent the shot quality is. Sometimes I get that perfect shot, but the grinder doesn't give enough control when dialling in and the machine also feels like it's inconsistent somehow even with the same grind size. 
Unsure whether to upgrade the grinder to DF64 (trying to find it on the used market with difficulty) or whether it's worth it as the duo temp pro may hold me back paired with the df64. Or whether I should find something in between and upgrade both. Budget is 300£ this year and then possible 300£ at the end of next year for a machine.

Also it has to be a grinder that is good at filter too as I love the occasional V60


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## OnurIbrahim (Aug 22, 2021)

Out of interest, What made you consider the DF64?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Over that period of time you may be using an early version of the SGP. Might even have the plastic impeller that wears out, no outer burr adjustment and sometimes needed shimming to grind down to espresso levels.

Bit of a problem though. Lots have happily used an SGP with a number of machines including the DTP, The shots can be fine tuned by adjusting the dose of grinds. Once settled the SGP produces pretty constant doses when beans are weighed in, People weigh shots out. You can expect some seconds variation for the same size shot,

7 problem free years with a DTP is good too, Decent water and descaling often enough,


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## Hall787 (17 d ago)

Hmm Thinking the DF64 might be a good upgrade from SGP as it gives room in the future to upgrade the burrs to SSP. also 64mm flat burrs sounds exciting. I think the fines from the niche conical set up is what puts me off. I am really looking for clarity in the espresso and filter. 

unsure about the longevity of the DF64 though as it hasn't been on the market for that long.

I think SGP is the biggest limiting factor in my espresso at the moment so hopefully DF64 will help with that and then at some point when the DTP eventually fails I'll find a good used Lelit or Rocket with parts that are easy to replace and can last years hopefully!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Hall787 said:


> niche conical set up


Like any new grinder they need several kg of beans grinding before the burrs do what they are capable of. That will apply to the DF64 too but I'd be inclined to say maybe more so with Niche but the initial taste change is fairly quick. Niche initially doesn't clump as much as some.



Hall787 said:


> upgrade the burrs to SSP


They need running much closer together than conventional burrs for the same level of grind. Adjustment for espresso gets interesting.


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## Hall787 (17 d ago)

Hmmm I've heard the DF64 can get quite noisy with the SSP multiple purpose burrs - do you think it's worth the upgrade from the normal burrs with the DF64? or better to stick with niche?


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## jackspro (2 mo ago)

Certainly, if you go to something like the Niche or DF64 from you SGP, you will notice a big jump in consistency and quality in the cup. You will have much more control with both being stepless adjust. I think you'd be very happy moving to either from your SGP.

If you go a little further into the rabbit hole - it's widely agree'd that flat burrs will give you more clarity than conical burrs favouring body. I have had (very little) hands on time with the Niche and none with the DF64, but have a search around on some reviews - it's voiced sometimes about the DF64 feeling a little under on the quality front. @Kyle T put a nice review up recently DF64P

I'll toss the Mahlkonig X54 in the ring for you to have a look at. I currently have one and will be popping up my thoughts soon, after I've had the chance to run it for a little longer.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I find my SSP Hu 83mm burrs in my major give more acidity and a tiny bit more sweetness, compared to the stock mazzer tin burrs. The stock burrs give a more rounded cup, the niche gives a good cup but slightly less clarity.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The straight SSP burrs have to run a lot closer than standard from my use of them. By straight I mean the ones listed on their site ~12 months ago. Some grinders are offering different types. No fun to adjust on a DF64 which doesn't really match Niche as far as adjustment is concerned. It can also take an extreme dislike to darker roasts. Removing one of the silicone flaps helps, replacing the thickness with a couple of small washers. A couple of kg of beans helps condition the burrs. Probably around 5kg like most flats to get near to how they end up. There might be overheating problems if that is done too quickly. I've had to leave cooling time on a Mazzer Mini, It's easy to feel motor heat on that,

I didn't run Niche in just used it. The initial new burr effects were a bit on the gross side. Fierce coffee,Many people loved the taste etc.  Strong but wrong. It didn't take that much for this to drop off. I had it when batches were being delivered, one of the later ones that was as they finished up apart from the anti popcorn. Frankly I don't think that does much other than slow the grind time down a bit. It might need removing for some sources of maragogypes. Likely.

Fluffy grinds from day one. New flats I have had tend to clump. Static clumps that dropped off with use. Rather weak ones. I find stirring the grinds etc just produces more variation as used fixed 30sec shots and weigh afterwards. Eventually I selected a couple of light roasts from Rave's. Probably having ground 10kg plus+ by then, No problem getting phased tastes. Ratio adjusted to suite. I've also achieved that with a SGP but never tried light roasts. The SGP is easy to adjust and repeatable - as is Niche,

I'm not a big fan of Niche's grinds cup even after using it for some time. On the Mazzer Mini I can get a nice even central heap due to the portafilter support. Hands free. I'm dreaming up similar for Niche as feel it will improve pours. A couple done by hand indicates it will. They needed a grinder adjustment.

I do have a Major but not done anything with it yet. Converted to single dosing though and what happens? Finer setting needed than when it's used with the hopper on. LOL Leaves me wondering where people should stop with grinders in general.


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## Hall787 (17 d ago)

Interesting! Thanks for your points all 
I looked into Mazzers but heard they have a fair bit of retention as I only single dose really. What do the modifications do to the retention?
I'm put off by the niche because they're conical and not flat burr and extra fines tend to cloud the cup rather than producing the clarity of the flat burrs when I've tried different cups at roasteries (although they were using an EK43 which isn't really a fair comparison!)
DF64 seems good but then it's not a reputable brand and there are the build quality questions. I'm very tempted though... seems like you get a lot for the money.
I looked at the Mahlkonig x54 but wondered whether the smaller burrs than the 64 on the DF64 make it less worth the money or whether the size of the burr is less important for quality in the cup? I also wondered whether they also tend to have some retention. 
another option is the eureka oro but again i've heard some reliability issues. 
the Specialita would be good if I didn't want to easily change from espresso to filter

The above grinders seem to be the main ones I've found for around 400 GBP (new or lightly used) to be used for single dosing with equal filter and espresso use - any others to add into the ring or what do you think the main contender is?


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## jackspro (2 mo ago)

Hall787 said:


> What do the modifications do to the retention?


Basically, most single doser mods replace the hopper with a set of bellows. you dose singly into these and the bellows are used as a means of blowing the grinds out clearing the grind chamber of all grinds. They are almost available for just about any grinder... even an EK43.



Hall787 said:


> I looked at the Mahlkonig x54 but wondered whether the smaller burrs than the 64 on the DF64 make it less worth the money or whether the size of the burr is less important for quality in the cup? I also wondered whether they also tend to have some retention.


I should really get my finger out on the write up, but I do want to give it some more time to be complete. But throwing a few headlines:

I've been surprised so far at the results in the cup with the 54mm burrs.. coming from a lot of experience with much more expensive bigger burr'd grinders
using mine in a single dose fashion (with stock hopper and no mods) I see anywhere from 0.0g-0.2g retention if I let the grinder run itself fully out


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

My major is converted to single dose,

Use a tamper in the throat of the grinder and a brush for grinds, along with wdt I get out what I put in,

In terms of retention Vs exchange it holds very little. Not enough to taste in a cup

People get bogged down in ever little detail


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## jackspro (2 mo ago)

cuprajake said:


> People get bogged down in ever little detail


+1.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

cuprajake said:


> People get bogged down in ever little detail


+2
I converted a mazzer mini e. The e is a waste of time for single dosing but I didn't fancy finding a suitable funnel and fitting it. Some do that using a funnel intended for dosing batter onto stuff sold on ebay. A rubber lens hood for a puffer. Due to how I use it that is probably ideal. Other than a bit of an initial loss what went in comes out. I have a weight over the beans. Stops them bouncing about and prevents grinds spraying out onto the lens hood. Remove the antistatic grid, Actually I don't think that is what it actually does,

To use. Weigh the beans and put them in. Place the weight on, run the grinder until they have gone, puff. Brush out the grinds exit as some collects there, Lift weight, brush round burrs, Put it back and spin the grinder up again. Brush again including any in the funnel. The extra spin doesn't get much extra out - ~0.1g.









My hand is big enough to cover the lens hood.

The Mini burrs - intended for exotic coffees,  Do jolly ones produce more fines? Anyway it's out again so I can do side by side comparisons also to avoid grinder setting changes when I am using a certain bean in either of them.

Some would say I should fit the mini hopper to the Mazzer as grinder setting would need changing compared with use for weighing in. The grind characteristics do change. But where to stop?


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