# Lelit Owners and Potential Owners



## DavecUK

In late October I will be visiting Lelit in Milan and spending a few days in the factory with the owner and designers of the machines. It will be to look at the ideas for, and some actual, prototype new technology/software coming out over the next year or two. Much of this will be at concept/drawing stage.* It's an unusual opportunity in as much as companies don't share any of this stuff outside the company, with retailers or anyone else.* Often waiting to showcase some of it at something like Host Milan 2021. Although I won't be able to share some, or all of what I see, I can use user feedback to shape some of my input into the work.

It might also cover accessory kits, the range of machines etc...

*So if you have any feedback, things you would like me to consider, make sure are covered, or simply things you would like to ask if you were there, let me know in this thread and I will try to cover them. *I already have an extensive list of things to cover but there is always room for more.

I'm not going there as a retailer but as a user/designer/ideas person and the view, what's good for you will be good for Lelit. This means my perspective is very much going to be in sympathy with what you guys value and find useful. I've already started off a process whereby software upgrades should be easier and cheaper one day and it will be good to solidify that area, so development activities support software update activities, rather than preclude them.

I don't know how much video/photos I can publish, even though I will take plenty, or how much feedback I can give. Even so, it's your chance to make a difference if you want to feed something back.

P.S. If it works out well, I will be doing a similar thing with ECM/Profitec in Germany in the new year and also with ACS in Naples, because again they are all owner companies, not corporates.


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## spasypaddy

marax with a digital pid like the one on the elizabeth? thats basically my dream machine


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## DavecUK

spasypaddy said:


> marax with a digital pid like the one on the elizabeth? thats basically my dream machine


 So an LCC where you can set the HX loop temperature prior to boiler boost?

What about using a solenoid E61 group as well, so no maintenance?


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## spasypaddy

DavecUK said:


> So an LCC where you can set the HX loop temperature prior to boiler boost?
> 
> What about using a solenoid E61 group as well, so no maintenance?


 nah i love the idea of the lever. otherwise i get the ACS minima. and if i dont want e61 then i get the elizabeth. But i cant afford/dont need the bianca.

they used to make the maraT i believe which was what i describe

the marax form/size is perfect for myself and probably most home users


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## DavecUK

spasypaddy said:


> nah i love the idea of the lever. otherwise i get the ACS minima. and if i dont want e61 then i get the elizabeth. But i cant afford/dont need the bianca.
> 
> they used to make the maraT i believe which was what i describe


 That's a pity because you could potentially have some of the preinfusion cleverness (2 preinfusion types) of the Elizabeth with a solenoid E61 and no maintenance. As well as timed shots, auto backflushing flushing etc..I'd have called it the MaraX Pro (love naming stuff)

I think the MaraT was an ordinary Mara (old style one) with a PID instead of a fixed steam pressure...I thought you meant you wanted to control the brew water values in the HX loop directly rather than a 3 position switch.


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## spasypaddy

DavecUK said:


> That's a pity because you could potentially have some of the preinfusion cleverness (2 preinfusion types) of the Elizabeth with a solenoid E61 and no maintenance. As well as timed shots, auto backflushing flushing etc..I'd have called it the MaraX Pro (love naming stuff)
> 
> I think the MaraT was an ordinary Mara (old style one) with a PID instead of a fixed steam pressure...I thought you meant you wanted to control the brew water values in the HX loop directly rather than a 3 position switch.


 well now youre talking like that it sounds interesting, but surely then youre back up at a much higher price point. the marax is a sweet spot IMO of pricing, size, etc

so what youre suggesting is an elizabeth with an e61 which is just as an interesting proposition.


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## skylark

Marax owner ....

Another vote for an add-on PID incorporating shot timer. It's already been shown as a 'do-able' on YouTube. If Lelit were to produce one think of the revenue, otherwise I hope a third party vendor comes along soon. I'm thinking of returning the machine for a Bianca.

One more ... a selection of top/drip tray covers to replace, if required, those awful looking ones currently fitted. They may be purposeful but look cheap in my opinion. Better selection needed.

Right/Left (in my case) angled power cord. My machine sits 3" off my wall. Not a good look when it could be closer.

And I've not even powered my machine up yet  those items would make my choice of sticking with it longer term more of a certainty.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## skylark

DavecUK said:


> That's a pity because you could potentially have some of the preinfusion cleverness (2 preinfusion types) of the Elizabeth with a solenoid E61 and no maintenance. As well as timed shots, auto backflushing flushing etc..I'd have called it the MaraX Pro (love naming stuff)
> I think the MaraT was an ordinary Mara (old style one) with a PID instead of a fixed steam pressure...I thought you meant you wanted to control the brew water values in the HX loop directly rather than a 3 position switch.


 Doesn't appeal to me either Dave. A solenoid based Marax, pro or whatever, would 'sanitise' the whole experience of the Marax which after all is serving to move a whole lot of lesser machine mortals to an all-round E61 experience, lever and all. What would the future progression be? Lelit Elizabeth PRO with electronic profiling 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK

spasypaddy said:


> well now youre talking like that it sounds interesting, but surely then youre back up at a much higher price point. the marax is a sweet spot IMO of pricing, size, etc
> 
> so what youre suggesting is an elizabeth with an e61 which is just as an interesting proposition.


 You would think so wouldn't you but you didn't see maraX change the price point...I think it might be done at a very modest increase. Almost an Elizabeth, but without the dual boilers.



skylark said:


> Marax owner ....
> 
> Another vote for an add-on PID incorporating shot timer. It's already been shown as a 'do-able' on YouTube. If Lelit were to produce one think of the revenue, otherwise I hope a third party vendor comes along soon. I'm thinking of returning the machine for a Bianca.
> 
> 1. One more ... a selection of top/drip tray covers to replace, if required, those awful looking ones currently fitted. They may be purposeful but look cheap in my opinion. Better selection needed.
> 
> 2. Right/Left (in my case) angled power cord. My machine sits 3" off my wall. Not a good look when it could be closer.
> 
> And I've not even powered my machine up yet
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> those items would make my choice of sticking with it longer term more of a certainty.


 1. I like the grids because they don't show scratches...perhaps something a little thicker, so it looks less like thin wire?

2. Yes angled power cords good (ACS have moved to them) and lelit should as well. I purchased a few from Amazon to use with test machines because you can get them a lot closer to the wall. I paid about £5 for them. I think there are some with swivel ends, but I'm too mean to buy those.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002DWA8IW/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&th=1


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## DavecUK

skylark said:


> Lelit Elizabeth PRO with el chronic profiling


 What's that, I don't understand?


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## skylark

DavecUK said:


> What's that, I don't understand?


 Damned predictive text ...electronic 😆


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## allikat

Solenoid E61 with intelligent lever that can do via trickery what a lever activated E61 can do with various positions?


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## DavecUK

skylark said:


> Damned predictive text ...electronic 😆


 Oh, no not really....

I think if you have not powered your machine up, or used it and your not 100% happy, then it might be a good idea to return it to get something you know you are more likely to be satisfied with. It's a big investment and important to get it right!


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## skylark

allikat said:


> Solenoid E61 with intelligent lever that can do via trickery what a lever activated E61 can do with various positions?


Might just work but why would you fit it out with electronic wizardry when it already has a tried and tested lever?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## allikat

skylark said:


> Might just work but why would you fit it out with electronic wizardry when it already has a tried and tested lever?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Because Solenoid groups can be backflushed without having to dismantle the thing and re-grease it.


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## Doram

I am sure this is already on the list, but it would be nice to have the OPV go back to the tank, as common with other machines. I supposed it's mostly an issue for those who buy bottled water, but this would be an improvement for me. I will take this opportunity to ask if this is a mod that can be done easily, if anyone has done it and is willing to share instructions?

The drip tray grill - I thought I wouldn't like it, but actually I do! Not just because of the scratches, but also because it doesn't suffer as much from water/coffee drips. I got used to it and don't think it takes anything from the design.

Right angel cord - this would certainly be a good idea. It's easily fixed - I bought one on amazon for £3, but why not just replace what they give out?


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## skylark

I need a short LEFT angle power lead. Anyone any ideas of a stockist if Lelit won't/don't/can't come up with one 

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## MediumRoastSteam

*MaraX:*

- A solenoid group operated MaraX, with LCC to display and adjust temperature, pre-infusion, shot time, etc would be great. I'm not a fan on timed shots, but I can see the appeal for the bulk of the market (timed grinder, timed shot). If you dose by weight, and care about output weight, it's very unlikely your shots will be the same time and again. 
- Recessive hot water tap (We don't make tea, we drain the boiler). 
- Drain plug to replenish / descale the water inside the service boiler if you want to. 
- OPV return back to the tank.

If this comes true I'll be selling the Elizabeth 🤣 (joking)

----

*Elizabeth: *
- Make the drip tray a tad deeper (like, 1cm?) to the front of the machine - so the steam wand rests inside the drip tray, and not just over the drip tray when facing forwards.
- Overshooting brew temperature during warm up: IMO, given the size and position of the boiler... It's not really required. You can fool the machine by heating up to 70C, turn machine off, turn back on again. Controller will detect that machine is "hot enough" and will not overshoot to 120C and then come down gradually. 
- Hot water tap: Why bother mixing the water with the brew boiler? I understand if you want an Americano... But really... Use the kettle. I'd rather have a hot water tap to cycle the service boiler, not to make coffee. I do understand however that the machine design will have to change to allow this.
- Allow a timed shot to be aborted. Sometimes, you feel the shot is running too slow, but you set the time to 30 seconds or so, and you know you won't have the desired output. Give the option to abort the timer, maybe by adding 10s for each button press or something.
- Better, more spaced out backflushing cycles when using the machine's own functionality.
- Less error-prone way of accessing the advanced menu: A slight distraction and the machine is reset to factory defaults (including purging 500ml of water as part of it!)
- Portafilter handle and Steam knob upgrade: It looks cheap and tacky. 
- Include a tamper with the machine, not the plastic nonsense.

Edit: few corrections.


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## Doram

skylark said:


> I need a short LEFT angle power lead.


 You can get a right angle cord and fit the machine up-side-down: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01ITNKMV6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## skylark

Doram said:


> You can get a right angle cord and fit the machine up-side-down: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01ITNKMV6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


I need 0.5m though 

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## DavecUK

Doram said:


> You can get a right angle cord and fit the machine up-side-down: https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B01ITNKMV6/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o05_s01?ie=UTF8&psc=1


 Or simply a 4cm loop of the power lead behind the machine if you want to go the other way...  and a search if you want a shorter power cord.


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## Northern_Monkey

@DavecUK - Black wood options on their machine touch points for Bianca and Mara-x? Black phenolic Bianca paddles as well for OEM market, maybe black handled bottomless portafilters not just wood?

Still not sure why they go for modern matt textured handles on their portafilters when gloss black is more pro/traditional looking.


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## DavecUK

Northern_Monkey said:


> @DavecUK - Black wood options on their machine touch points for Bianca and Mara-x? Black phenolic Bianca paddles as well for OEM market, maybe black handled bottomless portafilters not just wood?
> 
> Still not sure why they go for modern matt textured handles on their portafilters when gloss black is more pro/traditional looking.


 Totally agree, in fact with the paddle, I always wondered why the wood needed to be so thick all the way as wood model aircraft propellers back in the day were thin and strong. I suppose I am a bit surprised no one has sent their paddle off to someone good with wood to have it reshaped? It's not like there is, or should be a lot of force used on it. Some of your comments were something I definitely intended to bring up with them. However, *all the points* you make are good.....and I will mention it in my report.


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## Rob1

allikat said:


> Solenoid E61 with intelligent lever that can do via trickery what a lever activated E61 can do with various positions?


 The various positions as in 3? Off, on and line pressure? Without a plumbed in rotary pump it's pretty useless. I liked the lever on my Expobar until I realised how pointless it was and how much it added to the maintenance.


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## Doram

Integrated scales in the drip tray? A deal with Niche to sell a Mara X/NZ package, as this seems like the current hottest pair? (if these are stupid ideas - then it's a joke ;-))


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## DavecUK

Doram said:


> 1. Integrated scales in the drip tray?
> 
> 2. A deal with Niche to sell a Mara X/NZ package, as this seems like the current hottest pair? (if these are stupid ideas - then it's a joke ;-))


 1. Already have some ideas for this....mentioned to them last year (good to know its something that's wanted though).

2. Niche march to their own drummer (I can't broker anything there)...they don't really seem to need to do deals, especially as they have a waitlist for grinders.


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## facboy

i can't remember if i asked this before...is there a reason the Sage thermojet-style technology cannot be refined to provide the temperature stability/control of an HX or dual-boiler machine?

i'm a complete luddite when it comes to this but the 3-second startup time is pretty amazing, and i assume whatever compromises exist at the moment can be engineered around to be less...compromised.


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## Doram

DavecUK said:


> 1. Already have some ideas for this....mentioned to them last year (good to know its something that's wanted though).
> 
> 2. Niche march to their own drummer (I can't broker anything there)...they don't really seem to need to do deals, especially as they have a waitlist for grinders.


 1. Good to know I am thinking like the giants. 🙂

2. Fair point. Doesn't mean we can't want it. 🙂


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## DavecUK

facboy said:


> i can't remember if i asked this before...is there a reason the Sage thermojet-style technology cannot be refined to provide the temperature stability/control of an HX or dual-boiler machine?
> 
> i'm a complete luddite when it comes to this but the 3-second startup time is pretty amazing, and i assume whatever compromises exist at the moment can be engineered around to be less...compromised.


 To implement it so that it works is extremely difficult. This is because you have variable flow rates and the heat capacity of the system to try and cater for. e.g. it doesn't heat up and cool down instantaneously. With a large boiler that's not such a problem.

In fact there are some other problems...because then the concept of an independently heated group raises it's head and that must be PID controlled. All this effort would be better put into a well designed saturated group....which we don't have on the lower cost prosumer kit...yet.


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## htr

I have a mara, but a have a generic suggestion (if it doesn't already exist?). an improved version of an e61 brewhead thermometer. One that can time a shot and counts shots too (so I know when to clean)...and ideally looks like part of the original machine...


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## MediumRoastSteam

htr said:


> I have a mara, but a have a generic suggestion (if it doesn't already exist?). an improved version of an e61 brewhead thermometer. One that can time a shot and counts shots too (so I know when to clean)...and ideally looks like part of the original machine...


 Well... If it has an LLC (like other Lelit Machines).... The shot counter comes for free.... 🙂


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## eamon

new elizabeth owner:
agree with the comment on the tamper.
also would be good it it was easier to check the water tank level, or ideally if on power up it indicated tank level (full, 3/4, etc. )

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam

eamon said:


> new elizabeth owner:
> agree with the comment on the tamper.
> also would be good it it was easier to check the water tank level, or ideally if on power up it indicated tank level (full, 3/4, etc. )
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 Doesn't your machine warn you the water is low before completely stopping dispensing water?


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## eamon

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Doesn't your machine warn you the water is low before completely stopping dispensing water?


yes, but if I was planning to make a few lattes and the warning came on after pulling the first coffee, would i have enough to pull the rest and steam the milk?

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## skylark

eamon said:


> yes, but if I was planning to make a few lattes and the warning came on after pulling the first coffee, would i have enough to pull the rest and steam the milk?
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Good suggestion ... and I've only got a Marax so unlikely to benefit 

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## Rob1

Separate water tanks and paths for a service and brew boiler. I know, it's never going to happen. I have considered modding a machine in the past but like most of my considerations involving taking a coffee machine out of action I never bothered. I remineralise water specifically for brewing but have to limit hardness because of the operating temps in a service boilers. Bottled water is a bit of a waste in service boilers, even if it starts out 'boiler safe' it won't take long using it for it not to be. It's still necessary to flush and probably descale occasionally unless you really keep on top of it. The best solution is to remineralise DI or RO water only with bicarbonates but for making coffee I find calcium or magnesium improves the flavour. So separate water tanks...


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## eamon

skylark said:


> Good suggestion ... and I've only got a Marax so unlikely to benefit
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


I had a basic grangaggia years ago, it had a transparent slot on the side so a quick glance showed you how much water was in the tank

https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/zmIAAOSwAltfHeow/s-l1600.jpg

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## skylark

Visible water levels on the Sage BE.

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## Rob1

Why have visible water levels when you can have a flow meter that measures exactly how much water is used per day which is then used to display an average water consumption stat together with the remaining water supply measured by conductivity. It could even be set to display an alert if the remaining water drops below the daily consumption stat. Just a bit unnecessary, but cool.


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## rxmnt

I'd love for some other brands to do the same as Bezzera and develop their own (external) group head with heating elements. A Lelit with a clever group head that heats accordingly and accurately to enable fast heat up time and temperature stability would be the dream.

Otherwise, of you get the impression that they're lame, just suggest the solenoid E61 :classic_angry:


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## Rob1

rxmnt said:


> I'd love for some other brands to do the same as Bezzera and develop their own (external) group head with heating elements. A Lelit with a clever group head that heats accordingly and accurately to enable fast heat up time and temperature stability would be the dream.
> 
> Otherwise, of you get the impression that they're lame, just suggest the solenoid E61 :classic_angry:


 I don't think cartridge heated groups were invented by Bezzera. I know the Xenia has a heated group, same for the Sage DB. Not sure they're the best solution, more parts to go wrong that are harder to get hold of than standard E61 parts. Would be nice to see more saturated groups though.


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## MediumRoastSteam

rxmnt said:


> A Lelit with a clever group head that heats accordingly and accurately to enable fast heat up time and temperature stability would be the dream.


 That's the Lelit Elizabeth? 🙂


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## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's the Lelit Elizabeth?


Is that the one which you'd choose over a Marax / niche combo though 

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## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Is that the one which you'd choose over a Marax / niche combo though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 That's my setup, yes. Niche + Elizabeth. Fast Heat up time (17min from cold to stable), accurate temperature control, pre-infusion, amazing steaming (140C, approx. 2 bar). Would I chose it over a MaraX? Depends what you want. I value Fast Heat up time and being compact, so that ticked many of the boxes for me.


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## rxmnt

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's the Lelit Elizabeth? 🙂


 Sorry, I don't know what the correct term is, but what I meant was an 'external', E61-like group head.


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## spasypaddy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Well... If it has an LLC (like other Lelit Machines).... The shot counter comes for free.... 🙂


 ah yes this is what i want on a marax. the LLC


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## Northern_Monkey

@DavecUK - Also a query on their pre-infusion approach on their lower range semi automatic models with brew switches. I think I read somewhere it does it via a low pressure say 2bar preinfusion and then vents it to the drip tray before ramping up again to the full brew pressure.

Just curious about it destabilising the puck or not including first drips in the shot if that is the case?

Would be nicer if the could ramp up without any venting etc.


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## MediumRoastSteam

spasypaddy said:


> ah yes this is what i want on a marax. the LLC


 Actually, my mistake: It's LCC (Lelit Control Centre). As opposed to "Limited Liability Company" 🙂 (American term).


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## DavecUK

Northern_Monkey said:


> @DavecUK - Also a query on their pre-infusion approach on their lower range semi automatic models with brew switches. I think I read somewhere it does it via a low pressure say 2bar preinfusion and then vents it to the drip tray before ramping up again to the full brew pressure.
> 
> Just curious about it destabilising the puck or not including first drips in the shot if that is the case?
> 
> Would be nicer if the could ramp up without any venting etc.


 I will ask, but those machines don't really reach my interest radar. I think they know that as well.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Northern_Monkey said:


> @DavecUK - Also a query on their pre-infusion approach on their lower range semi automatic models with brew switches. I think I read somewhere it does it via a low pressure say 2bar preinfusion and then vents it to the drip tray before ramping up again to the full brew pressure.
> 
> Just curious about it destabilising the puck or not including first drips in the shot if that is the case?
> 
> Would be nicer if the could ramp up without any venting etc.


 *Just for clarity, this is NOT the case with the Elizabeth.* It does NOT vent to the drip tray before ramping up. But you are right: I think you are referring to this post:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53495-lelit-victoria-pl91t-peoples-thoughts/?do=embed&comment=762050&embedComment=762050&embedDo=findComment


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## DavecUK

MediumRoastSteam said:


> *Just for clarity, this is NOT the case with the Elizabeth.* It does NOT vent to the drip tray before ramping up. But you are right: I think you are referring to this post:
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53495-lelit-victoria-pl91t-peoples-thoughts/?do=embed&comment=762050&embedComment=762050&embedDo=findComment


 It's hard to believe they would make such an error as venting the group...I'll try to take a look at one while I'm there.. I don't want to express too much interest though.


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## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> It's hard to believe they would make such an error as venting the group...I'll try to take a look at one while I'm there.. I don't want to express too much interest though.


 I completely agree Dave. If this is the case, it seems such a rookie's mistake / clueless implementation of pre-infusion.


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## Northern_Monkey

@MediumRoastSteam - Ta, I couldn't remember where it came up!


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## MediumRoastSteam

If the Victoria could be revamped to be literally Half Elizabeth (i.e.: Without the service/steam boiler) that would sell like hot cakes and appeal to a huge portion of the market. All of a sudden, the market will have:

- Fast heat up machine;
- 58mm group, E61 compatible (gasket, portafilter, baskets);
- Low maintenance;
- Bloom pre-infusion; 
- Nice OPV;
- Quiet pump;

And, if you fancy a milk drink, it can be done, although it won't be its forte.


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## L&R

Simple thing that could be improved is to start using externally accessible OPVs like in ECM machines.


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## DavecUK

L&R said:


> Simple thing that could be improved is to start using externally accessible OPVs like in ECM machines.


 I agree, although sadly historic internal placements and case design sometimes don't make it easy.* It was something I intended to bring up (fortunately you reminded me as I had forgotten).* The Elizabeth expansion valve is at least now available with only the top of the case requiring removal and the machines pressure can easily be adjusted and then the pump run to check....unlike how it used to be!


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## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> I agree, although sadly historic internal placements and case design sometimes don't make it easy.* It was something I intended to bring up (fortunately you reminded me as I had forgotten).* The Elizabeth expansion valve is at least now available with only the top of the case requiring removal and the machines pressure can easily be adjusted and then the pump run to check....unlike how it used to be!


 Quite!

copyright: Lelit, from Dave's review.


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## Blue_Cafe

L&R said:


> Simple thing that could be improved is to start using externally accessible OPVs like in ECM machines.


 I think Rancilio have this right as much as is economically possible with the Silvia.

They have a proper user adjustable pressure /flow/ regulator inside the machine. I suppose you could put the valve stem accessible from the back but it would certainly mean some compromise.


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## rxmnt

Rob1 said:


> I don't think cartridge heated groups were invented by Bezzera. I know the Xenia has a heated group, same for the Sage DB. Not sure they're the best solution, more parts to go wrong that are harder to get hold of than standard E61 parts. Would be nice to see more saturated groups though.


 I didn't want to imply that Bezzera invented them, it's just pretty much the only company I know of that has this, apart from the Xenia.

It's true that it's more parts that could go wrong, but I just feel like it'd be the next step. Being able to precisely control group head temp (well... as precise as you can control a block of metal) and fast heat up seems like an advantage over the classic E61, and also it'd just be cool to have a little variation in the 1-2k € segment, not just "E61 attached to this box, E61 attached to that box".

And yeah, saturated groups in that price segment would also be amazing, I just don't know if it's doable.


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## siliconslave

Given the price point I think the only thing i'm really missing from the MaraX is a shot timer of some description. The water waste is a bit of a pain but manageable, scales would be nice but tbh i think separates are more useful. Flow control can be added and temperature control, while nice, is reasonable to hold for higher models in the range.

Only other thing i'd like to see is innovation in their grinders - a matching single dose grinder would be amazing! Alternatively some way of managing bean freshness - pressurised hopper maybe?


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## MediumRoastSteam

.


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## rxmnt

skylark said:


> Is that the one which you'd choose over a Marax / niche combo though
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Honestly, I currently don't know what advantages the Mara X would have over the Elizabeth, apart from the look & feel of a classic E61 group maybe, but that's clearly subjective.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

rxmnt said:


> Honestly, I currently don't know what advantages the Mara X would have over the Elizabeth, apart from the look & feel of a classic E61 group maybe, but that's clearly subjective.


 Err..... the Elizabeth is a dual boiler. It has different features from the MaraX. They are completely different machines!


----------



## skylark

I knew that 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> I knew that
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Ok. ????


----------



## rxmnt

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Err..... the Elizabeth is a dual boiler. It has different features from the MaraX. They are completely different machines!


 Yes, it has different features, but in the end, we all want to have nice espresso and steam milk, right? Both machines serve the audience of people who mostly drink milk-based drinks, and who want to be able to steam milk while making espresso.

How that is realized behind the scenes, if the machine has a HX, two boilers, or a hundred boilers, is mostly irrelevant. At least for me.


----------



## Blue_Cafe

rxmnt said:


> Yes, it has different features, but in the end, we all want to have nice espresso and steam milk, right? Both machines serve the audience of people who mostly drink milk-based drinks, and who want to be able to steam milk while making espresso.
> 
> How that is realized behind the scenes, if the machine has a HX, two boilers, or a hundred boilers, is mostly irrelevant. At least for me.


 This forum and this field of interest has more than it's fair share of technophobics for sure.


----------



## skylark

Blue_Cafe said:


> This forum and this field of interest has more than it's fair share of technophobics for sure.


That sounds like me  .... what's a 'technophobic'?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

rxmnt said:


> How that is realized behind the scenes, if the machine has a HX, two boilers, or a hundred boilers, is mostly irrelevant. At least for me.


 With the Elizabeth you can:

- tune the temperature to what you want, precisely, with fine control. Not the case with the MaraX, as you know by now the HX architecture.

- the Elizabeth offers pre-infusion via software and using the service boiler. The MaraX offers pre-infusion vis the E61. You can install a paddle if you want to do flow profiling.

- The Elizabeth allows you to control the steam temperature to what you want, even to 145C. The steam temperature does not affect the brew temperature. As you also know by now. 
- the Elizabeth has more things to go wrong: electronics, displays, two boilers, etc. 
- The E61 groups fitted to the MaraX, is trialed and tested technology, with plenty of spares and parts widely available. It's also great for temperature stability.

a Gaggia Classic, with one boiler, can also make espresso and steam milk, same as a La Pavoni (Although the work very differently) or a Sage Bambino (note: they one doesn't even have s boiler!)

you'll find most of us do not steam milk and make espresso at the same time.

edit: what I'm trying to say here is that there are different machines, with different architectures and features, which ultimately make espresso and steam milk one way or another. You just need to find what is right for you. Similar analogy can be made to cars, hi-fi, airplanes, boats...


----------



## Blue_Cafe

skylark said:


> That sounds like me
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .... what's a 'technophobic'?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 A person who has a fear of technology.

My reading of this hobby is that change is viewed suspiciously and the end product is not always used as a judge as too what's good or not.


----------



## skylark

Blue_Cafe said:


> A person who has a fear of technology.
> 
> My reading of this hobby is that change is viewed suspiciously and the end product is not always used as a judge as too what's good or not.


Yup, that's me. That's why I went for a lever based machine. Didn't like the look of all those pressy buttony things on the market 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Yup, that's me. That's why I went for a lever based machine. Didn't like the look of all those pressy buttony things on the market
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Well, if you were a technophobe you'd be gone for a La Pavoni without pressure stat. ???? - there's plenty of tech inside the MaraX:

- tank water level sensor;
- temperature probes;
- PID with fancy algorithm to control the temperature for this machine;
- Gicar (brain box);
- solenoid valves;
- buttons to select temperature and mode;
- tank fill level sensor.

But yeah, granted, the Elizabeth far more technology (and complexity) packed in.


----------



## rxmnt

MediumRoastSteam said:


> With the Elizabeth you can:
> 
> - tune the temperature to what you want, precisely, with fine control. Not the case with the MaraX, as you know by now the HX architecture.
> 
> - the Elizabeth offers pre-infusion via software and using the service boiler. The MaraX offers pre-infusion vis the E61. You can install a paddle if you want to do flow profiling.
> 
> - The Elizabeth allows you to control the steam temperature to what you want, even to 145C. The steam temperature does not affect the brew temperature. As you also know by now.
> - the Elizabeth has more things to go wrong: electronics, displays, two boilers, etc.
> - The E61 groups fitted to the MaraX, is trialed and tested technology, with plenty of spares and parts widely available. It's also great for temperature stability.
> 
> a Gaggia Classic, with one boiler, can also make espresso and steam milk, same as a La Pavoni (Although the work very differently) or a Sage Bambino (note: they one doesn't even have s boiler!)
> 
> you'll find most of us do not steam milk and make espresso at the same time.
> 
> edit: what I'm trying to say here is that there are different machines, with different architectures and features, which ultimately make espresso and steam milk one way or another. You just need to find what is right for you. Similar analogy can be made to cars, hi-fi, airplanes, boats...


 I drfinetely generalized a little to much in my post, but the point I wanted to get across was that just because one is a dual boiler, and one is a HX, they don't have completely different audiences, especially since they cost the same. Take me as an example: I don't care about playing around with pre-infusion time, and I don't care about flow profiling. Might as well take either of the machines then, because both satisfy my need of (hopefully) producing good espresso and steam, without having to wait to heat up to produce steam (like I'd have to do with a single boiler machine like the Gaggia).

For me, It's actually not really the boiler situation that drives me to any conclusion, I'm rather thinking about if the (obviously subjective) better looks of the Mara are worth the extra effort to clean / maintain the E61 group head, or the difference in heat up time.

But this is not a "help me decide" thread, so I'll try to shut up now .


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

rxmnt said:


> I drfinetely generalized a little to much in my post, but the point I wanted to get across was that just because one is a dual boiler, and one is a HX, they don't have completely different audiences, especially since they cost the same. Take me as an example: I don't care about playing around with pre-infusion time, and I don't care about flow profiling. Might as well take either of the machines then, because both satisfy my need of (hopefully) producing good espresso and steam, without having to wait to heat up to produce steam (like I'd have to do with a single boiler machine like the Gaggia).
> 
> For me, It's actually not really the boiler situation that drives me to any conclusion, I'm rather thinking about if the (obviously subjective) better looks of the Mara are worth the extra effort to clean / maintain the E61 group head, or the difference in heat up time.
> 
> But this is not a "help me decide" thread, so I'll try to shut up now .


 Yep. I understand your point completely, specially considering the price point. 👍 - they are great machines, tough decisions! - also, worth mentioning that before the MaraX it wasn't that simple a decision. The MaraX made It possible for itself to become the newest choice for those considering an entry level E61 dual boiler (because of its temp management capabilities).

Edit: in summary, In Lelit's range, the decision comes to choosing between a high-end HX or an entry level dual boiler.

👍


----------



## robti

Simple request from me, a backlit gauge with a diffused led like the power button and I would be happy for now


----------



## allikat

Not a technophobe, but definitely firmly against high tech being in places it's not warranted. Shot timers, and PID are great, especially when built into an integrated design. Just say no to apps and touchscreens, and say really unpleasant things (as well as no) to internet connectivity. There's an important user experience thing of having a mechanical connection to the machine doing its thing, chunky levers, satisfying clicky buttons that provide feedback to the user. Even if what it controls has a computer behind it, then making it feel analogue is important.

I like the look and workings of the Lelit machines, I'm very impressed, and if I ever get the money to buy one new, I will.

What I'd like to encourage is a variety of options with sizing. Dual boilers going wide instead of deep for example, the new Sylvia Pro is never going to fit in my kitchen, it's just too deep.


----------



## Doram

allikat said:


> What I'd like to encourage is a variety of options with sizing. Dual boilers going wide instead of deep for example, the new Sylvia Pro is never going to fit in my kitchen, it's just too deep.


 Don't they already have that in Lelit Elizabeth?


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## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> Don't they already have that in Lelit Elizabeth?


 @allikat - Elizabeth is the machine for you then 🙂. And the pressure gauge lights up too... Oh wait, they don't have that (a pressure gauge) on the Silvia do they? 😉


----------



## ZiggyMarley

allikat said:


> There's an important user experience thing of having a mechanical connection to the machine doing its thing, chunky levers, satisfying clicky buttons that provide feedback to the user.


 each to their own. I am afraid I cannot agree.

There is a whole new generation of users coming up behind me (you/us) who live their lives through touch screens, Internet connected devices etc. Ignoring them and their needs is ignoring the future.

Haptic feedback and visual/audio/online feedback can be provided in so many interesting ways

personally I am not interested in levers, clunky switches etc. It was the one reason I got rid of my E61 group head machine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ZiggyMarley said:


> each to their own. I am afraid I cannot agree.
> 
> There is a whole new generation of users coming up behind me (you/us) who live their lives through touch screens, Internet connected devices etc. Ignoring them and their needs is ignoring the future.
> 
> Haptic feedback and visual/audio/online feedback can be provided in so many interesting ways
> 
> personally I am not interested in levers, clunky switches etc. It was the one reason I got rid of my E61 group head machine.


 Agreed. I was actually talking to CoffeeChap about this. Even the Londinium - which are rather tactile machines, chunky piston, lever, spring, etc - have a control module to manage pre-infusion control the pump. So, behind the scenes, there are electronics too.

As far as experience - They are personal. As much as I like the tactile experience, I also enjoy the "press button" approach, as long as I know what it's doing. I think the Elizabeth is a great example of that - It's start/stop via push buttons, but those can also be automated to a degree, e.g.: "Pump on for 2 seconds, allow pressure from steam boiler to pressurise the group circuit for 7 seconds, pump at full power, managed by expansion valve for 20 seconds, stop."

I don't need to be in control, but I know exactly what's going on.


----------



## stassinari

Hey all, new Elizabeth v3 owner here. Just wanted to say thanks to DaveC, your in-depth reviews definitely made it for me, and I've decided for an Elizabeth mainly because of counter space and the LCC.

I have just received it and started using it (first proper espresso machine I own), so I can't comment on many things like others can on this post.

What I will say, though, after researching extensively for weeks, is I think it would be great to include an accessible way for people to update their LCC.

As @allikat mentioned just above, no internet or app nonsense, but maybe a service port you can access easily and connect to with your computer, and an updating software that you can use to flash new firmwares.

I know DaveC has mentioned he has a way to do this, so maybe it's not that far off as a suggestion


----------



## DavecUK

stassinari said:


> As @allikat mentioned just above, no internet or app nonsense, but maybe a service port you can access easily and connect to with your computer, and an updating software that you can use to flash new firmwares.
> 
> I know DaveC has mentioned he has a way to do this, so maybe it's not that far off as a suggestion


 I can flash new firmware to LCCs, in or outside the machine. It does require some specialist kit and the knowledge to do it right as well as the hex code to flash! I doubt Lelit will make that readily available to all retailer and perhaps only a few specialists.. Although it can be read back of an already updated LCC.

When flashing you have to be careful as well, I always read off, save the existing and then flash the new. Reboot and check the flash. If the circumstances arise, I will be happy to flash any machines that are out of warranty if Lelit give me updated code (which they probably will so I can flash the test machines I have). I would simply say send the LCC with a return post envelope...I flash, pop back in and repost. You would have to check but large letter might not work.

I can also Flash Minima and Vesuvius boxes...but they have to be out of the machine.

P.S. This does assume any reflash doesn't also come on the back of a hardware wiring change. At the moment old Lelits can be reflashed to the updated 5.05C (I think it is code).


----------



## Johey

DavecUK said:


> I can flash new firmware to LCCs, in or outside the machine. It does require some specialist kit and the knowledge to do it right as well as the hex code to flash! I doubt Lelit will make that readily available to all retailer and perhaps only a few specialists.. Although it can be read back of an already updated LCC.
> 
> When flashing you have to be careful as well, I always read off, save the existing and then flash the new. Reboot and check the flash. If the circumstances arise, I will be happy to flash any machines that are out of warranty if Lelit give me updated code (which they probably will so I can flash the test machines I have). I would simply say send the LCC with a return post envelope...I flash, pop back in and repost. You would have to check but large letter might not work.
> 
> I can also Flash Minima and Vesuvius boxes...but they have to be out of the machine.
> 
> P.S. This does assume any reflash doesn't also come on the back of a hardware wiring change. At the moment old Lelits can be reflashed to the updated 5.05C (I think it is code).


 Can you also flash the LCC from the Bianca? There was an update to Firmware 4.07c with quite some interesting features/improvements.


----------



## DavecUK

Johey said:


> Can you also flash the LCC from the Bianca? There was an update to Firmware 4.07c with quite some interesting features/improvements.


 Yes, but you need to do a rewire. I have the software but haven't flashed mine yet as I don't really use it, it's in storage...but I know theres some extra connections to make/change.

Just haven't had time to get around to it.


----------



## GrahamS

How about a pid controlled E61, that instead of thermosyphon which (I imagine) trickles hot water through the group, has a small (car windscreen washer) pump. making it a water powered version of the electrically heated groups, but still E61ish.

the advantage would be a much quicker warm up with the group being flooded with boiler temp water at start up and then a trickle to keep it spot on temp.

or an Elizabeth's workings and performance, with the MaraX cosmetics


----------



## DavecUK

DavecUK said:


> Yes, but you need to do a rewire. I have the software but haven't flashed mine yet as I don't really use it, it's in storage...but I know theres some extra connections to make/change.
> 
> Just haven't had time to get around to it.


 It actually might depend on the age of yours as *Mine is a prototype and that's probably why I need the wiring changes.* I purchased the prototype to stop it falling into the wrong hands..

So I'll happily flash yours and if it doesn't work right, flash it back. If you had the offer of buying a new LCC, then I can just flash it. Your risk...


----------



## eamon

eamon said:


> new elizabeth owner:
> agree with the comment on the tamper.
> also would be good it it was easier to check the water tank level, or ideally if on power up it indicated tank level (full, 3/4, etc. )
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 e.g. today, powered on machine, pulled an espresso shot. low water warning came on. didnt have sufficient steam for pitcher of milk.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

eamon said:


> e.g. today, powered on machine, pulled an espresso shot. low water warning came on. didnt have sufficient steam for pitcher of milk.


Of course not. When the warning comes on, the heating elements are switched off!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## eamon

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Of course not. When the warning comes on, the heating elements are switched off!
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 i guess thats the issue, its not a warning, its an alarm (to quote the manual).

an easier way to check the water level, or a water level "warning" would be a nice to have.


----------



## ZiggyMarley

water level indicator would be great. Filling with a funnel (machine is under a cupboard) is a bit of a lottery when you can't see what you are doing and it isn't easy to pull the machine out every other day.


----------



## kico

skylark said:


> I need 0.5m though
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk





DavecUK said:


> Or simply a 4cm loop of the power lead behind the machine if you want to go the other way...  and a search if you want a shorter power cord.


 I've ordered this from Amazon. Seems like it will do the trick and get my Marax close to the wall / allow me to just use the cable that came with.

Sorry if this has been mentioned!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07HC2ZKZ2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kico said:


> I've ordered this from Amazon. Seems like it will do the trick and get my Marax close to the wall / allow me to just use the cable that came with.
> Sorry if this has been mentioned!
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07HC2ZKZ2/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Why not buy a whole kettle lead with a 90deg angle? More junctions, more connections.... more points of failure, more to go wrong.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ZiggyMarley said:


> water level indicator would be great. Filling with a funnel (machine is under a cupboard) is a bit of a lottery when you can't see what you are doing and it isn't easy to pull the machine out every other day.


 I don't know about people here, but most machines do not have a water level indicator. Providing your consumption of coffee follows a regular pattern, you should know roughly how long it takes for the tank to be empty? Take myself as an example: I fill up with 2 litres of water at a time, so the tank is full. Given my usage, I top up the tank every week. If you find that's too long, then top it up every 4th or 5th day, for example. When I had my E61 machine a few years ago, the top up was every 3rd day. Just get into the habit and problem solved!

Water level sensor is just more electronics/sensor bound to go wrong. 🙂


----------



## ZiggyMarley

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't know about people here





MediumRoastSteam said:


> Providing your consumption of coffee follows a regular pattern


 which it doesnt - it varies widely - so no problem not solved. In the location of our machine, seeing when the tank is full is very difficult and the risk of overflow is high.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Water level sensor is just more electronics/sensor bound to go wrong.


 I am willing to to live with that uncertainty. A max sensor or alarm would be useful. If I could get a spare tank for the Elizabeth, i would be willing to experiment......


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't know about people here, but most machines do not have a water level indicator. Providing your consumption of coffee follows a regular pattern, you should know roughly how long it takes for the tank to be empty? Take myself as an example: I fill up with 2 litres of water at a time, so the tank is full. Given my usage, I top up the tank every week. If you find that's too long, then top it up every 4th or 5th day, for example. When I had my E61 machine a few years ago, the top up was every 3rd day. Just get into the habit and problem solved!
> 
> Water level sensor is just more electronics/sensor bound to go wrong. 🙂


 The Marax goes through a lot of water. I fill up every other day.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> The Marax goes through a lot of water. I fill up every other day.


 Yep. The E61 itself "wastes" quite a bit of water when you pull the lever down via the exhaust valve, and as the OPV goes back to the drip tray, quite a bit of water is wasted there too.


----------



## skylark

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yep. The E61 itself "wastes" quite a bit of water when you pull the lever down via the exhaust valve, and as the OPV goes back to the drip tray, quite a bit of water is wasted there too.


 Surely someone can fix this to enable a return to the tank. Seems an awful lot of waste ..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

ZiggyMarley said:


> In the location of our machine, seeing when the tank is full is very difficult and the risk of overflow is high.


 Can't you slide the machine in/out or you don't have the physical space? Put felt pads on the feet of the machine?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> Surely someone can fix this to enable a return to the tank. Seems an awful lot of waste ..


 I think there's a mod you can do - as a concept -, but it involves a one-way vale and some re-routing of hoses. DavecUK shared some of the schematics on the MaraX thread a while ago. I don't think he ever implemented it or tried it out.


----------



## ZiggyMarley

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Can't you slide the machine in/out or you don't have the physical space? Put felt pads on the feet of the machine?


 not really enough space - tried the felt pads, but they keep getting ripped off due to the weight of the machine. Could put the whole thing on a tray that'll slide.

ATM i mounted a cheap mirror under the cupboard, that allows me to peer into the tank when filling!!


----------



## spasypaddy

ZiggyMarley said:


> not really enough space - tried the felt pads, but they keep getting ripped off due to the weight of the machine. Could put the whole thing on a tray that'll slide.
> 
> ATM i mounted a cheap mirror under the cupboard, that allows me to peer into the tank when filling!!


 could use something like this?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wi-Fi-monitor-Sensor-buzzer-Alerts/dp/B01AQ1ADYA


----------



## skylark

spasypaddy said:


> could use something like this?
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wi-Fi-monitor-Sensor-buzzer-Alerts/dp/B01AQ1ADYA


 What! It's £80! Just Dremel a small window on the bottom side of the case .... just kidding 😏


----------



## ZiggyMarley

spasypaddy said:


> could use something like this?
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wi-Fi-monitor-Sensor-buzzer-Alerts/dp/B01AQ1ADYA


 possibly but i envisaged something cheaper, battery operated


----------



## spasypaddy

ZiggyMarley said:


> possibly but i envisaged something cheaper, battery operated


 now youve made me wonder if it can be done via a smart home device... and someone has a video that might be of use


----------



## kico

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Why not buy a whole kettle lead with a 90deg angle? More junctions, more connections.... more points of failure, more to go wrong.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


 What can go wrong? It seems higher quality, cheap, and allow it to be closer closer to the wall - both left or right.

I think I'd be okay with a 90deg right cable but this is a silly price https://smile.amazon.co.uk/C2G-degree-IEC320C13R-BS1363-Kettle-Black/dp/B002DWA8IW/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=right%2Bangle%2BBS1363&qid=1603193790&sr=8-4&th=1

I'm guessing I need 10A fuse, this wouldn't be suitable?
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00TZA85WG/ref=crt_ewc_title_huc_1?ie=UTF8&smid=AAXH2NA9P0RNV&th=1

This is cable cheap but 5m is too long! https://smile.amazon.co.uk/C2G-degree-IEC320C13R-BS1363-Kettle-Black/dp/B002DWA8J6/


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

kico said:


> What can go wrong? It seems higher quality, cheap, and allow it to be closer closer to the wall - both left or right.
> 
> I think I'd be okay with a 90deg right cable but this is a silly price https://smile.amazon.co.uk/C2G-degree-IEC320C13R-BS1363-Kettle-Black/dp/B002DWA8IW/ref=sr_1_4?dchild=1&keywords=right%2Bangle%2BBS1363&qid=1603193790&sr=8-4&th=1
> 
> I'm guessing I need 10A fuse, this wouldn't be suitable?
> 
> https://smile.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00TZA85WG/ref=crt_ewc_title_huc_1?ie=UTF8&smid=AAXH2NA9P0RNV&th=1
> 
> This is cable cheap but 5m is too long! https://smile.amazon.co.uk/C2G-degree-IEC320C13R-BS1363-Kettle-Black/dp/B002DWA8J6/


Why bother when, for the same price, you can buy this?

AAA PRODUCTS | UK Plug to Angled Kettle Mains Power Cable/Lead - IEC C13 H05VV-F 0.75mm² 3G 13A - Works with TV/Printer/PC/Projector/Kettle and other Appliances - Length: 2M / 6.5 Ft https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00OY6CW20/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_i_K5SJFbVY77F6D?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

Edit: I bought this for mine.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## DavecUK

yup or this, if you only want 1.5 mtre

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HotTopStar-Compatible-Computers-Monitors-Equipment/dp/B07N3Z61RP/ref=sr_1_22_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=90+degree+power+cable&qid=1603194783&sr=8-22-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVENUVzc2RUYwN0xKJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzg3NjQwM1Y2SjcxNE45QkZDRyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDE5MDk0MU5OUUZTNFI4MFZMSiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2J0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=

My 2M one was £5.77 but when I looked it up it's now almost £17, their variable pricing algorithms I guess.

Or this bargain for £3.49

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plug-Right-Angle-Power-Lead-Black/dp/B01ITNKMV6/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=right+angled+kettle+lead+1m&qid=1603195026&sr=8-3


----------



## kico

DavecUK said:


> yup or this, if you only want 1.5 mtre
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/HotTopStar-Compatible-Computers-Monitors-Equipment/dp/B07N3Z61RP/ref=sr_1_22_sspa?dchild=1&keywords=90+degree+power+cable&qid=1603194783&sr=8-22-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExVENUVzc2RUYwN0xKJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNzg3NjQwM1Y2SjcxNE45QkZDRyZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwMDE5MDk0MU5OUUZTNFI4MFZMSiZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX2J0ZiZhY3Rpb249Y2xpY2tSZWRpcmVjdCZkb05vdExvZ0NsaWNrPXRydWU=
> 
> My 2M one was £5.77 but when I looked it up it's now almost £17, their variable pricing algorithms I guess.
> 
> Or this bargain for £3.49
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plug-Right-Angle-Power-Lead-Black/dp/B01ITNKMV6/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=right+angled+kettle+lead+1m&qid=1603195026&sr=8-3


 Thank you! 1m one is perfect!!

Woohoo for tidy cable management


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## ZiggyMarley

kico said:


> Thank you! 1m one is perfect!!
> 
> Woohoo for tidy cable management


 and for me as well.....


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## Doram

DavecUK said:


> Or this bargain for £3.49
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Plug-Right-Angle-Power-Lead-Black/dp/B01ITNKMV6/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=right+angled+kettle+lead+1m&qid=1603195026&sr=8-3


 This is the one I have, and I can confirm it's perfect for the Mara if your socket is close enough.


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## skylark

Doram said:


> This is the one I have, and I can confirm it's perfect for the Mara if your socket is close enough.


 I need a left angled lead .... 0.5m would be ideal. Unfortunately I haven't found one yet ... bit like hensteeth.


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## Doram

skylark said:


> I need a left angled lead .... 0.5m would be ideal. Unfortunately I haven't found one yet ... bit like hensteeth.


 Who ever said coffee nerds are a bunch of nit pickers? 🤣


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## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> I need a left angled lead .... 0.5m would be ideal. Unfortunately I haven't found one yet ... bit like hensteeth.


 Same here. Gave up and assumed that's what they meant, *literally (boom!!!) *big *right *angle! 🤣


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## shiner25

Man I wish i had seen this earlier.

Request LELIT get rid of the dumb 57mm portafilter on the Anna and Grace models.

There's no need for a 57mm. I honest to God think they did this on purpose just to piss people off.


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## MediumRoastSteam

shiner25 said:


> Man I wish i had seen this earlier.
> 
> Request LELIT get rid of the dumb 57mm portafilter on the Anna and Grace models.
> 
> There's no need for a 57mm. I honest to God think they did this on purpose just to piss people off.


 if memory doesn't fail me, Ascaso, with the Ascaso Dream - a very popular machine mind you, did the same a while ago. It might be that Lelit and Ascaso even share the same group. Maybe there's a reason behind it (market share maybe?), who knows.

You posted twice on this forum thus far. On both occasions on the rather offensive, derogatory side towards Lelit on the very same topic.

The 57mm is not my preferred choice either, and would definitely warn prospective buyers in case they overlooked it. However, you can still get accessories, baskets, spares, etc from Ascaso and Lelit. IMS does aftermarket baskets. Maybe some people don't mind and will be happy with the out-of-the box accessories for years to come.

Ultimately, you have a choice: If you are not a fan, just don't buy it.

other post:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55340-anna-beginner-friendliness/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=789108&embedComment=789108&embedDo=findComment#comment-789108


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## DavecUK

shiner25 said:


> Man I wish i had seen this earlier.
> 
> Request LELIT get rid of the dumb 57mm portafilter on the Anna and Grace models.
> 
> There's no need for a 57mm. I honest to God think they did this on purpose just to piss people off.


 Well sadly I had to cancel it, 5 days before I flew out Italian rules changed meaning we had to have a covid -ve test within 72 hours of arrival. No UK test service could guarantee results back that fast and the cost was almost 2.5 times the cost of the ticket. Without a certificate I could travel but if tested at Milan airport, if I was positive or got a false positive, I would immediately be escorted to a special quarantine hotel for 2 weeks at my expense. Then of course the cost of a new single ticket back, 1 day before travel the UK air corridor closed and an Italy trip would have also meant 14 days isolation on return...

😒


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## DavecUK

I will go once this whole Covid mess is behind us and our governments have managed to find a way to successfully live with the Virus. At least one of my software ideas is being implemented in MaraX, but I have to test it first.


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## shiner25

DavecUK said:


> Well sadly I had to cancel it, 5 days before I flew out Italian rules changed meaning we had to have a covid -ve test within 72 hours of arrival. No UK test service could guarantee results back that fast and the cost was almost 2.5 times the cost of the ticket. Without a certificate I could travel but if tested at Milan airport, if I was positive or got a false positive, I would immediately be escorted to a special quarantine hotel for 2 weeks at my expense. Then of course the cost of a new single ticket back, 1 day before travel the UK air corridor closed and an Italy trip would have also meant 14 days isolation on return...
> 
> 😒


 Ah that's too bad. Yeah, I here things in the UK have got really bad. I'm from there but now in Canada. Well, if you ever get over there it would be nice to suggest to them to swap out those 57mm portafilters for 58. it's a very odd choice for them and leads me to believe they did it specifically to get folks to upgrade as their higher models like the victoria, elizabeth and mara have 58mm, so if they thought 57mm was fine they would have followed suit. I think they know and are playing the upgrade game, giving people less under $1000. Trouble is a company like Gaggia is offering 58mm on their classic. For that I applaud them even if I wouldn't buy one.


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## Mrboots2u

shiner25 said:


> Ah that's too bad. Yeah, I here things in the UK have got really bad. I'm from there but now in Canada. Well, if you ever get over there it would be nice to suggest to them to swap out those 57mm portafilters for 58. it's a very odd choice for them and leads me to believe they did it specifically to get folks to upgrade as their higher models like the victoria, elizabeth and mara have 58mm, so if they thought 57mm was fine they would have followed suit. I think they know and are playing the upgrade game, giving people less under $1000. Trouble is a company like Gaggia is offering 58mm on their classic. For that I applaud them even if I wouldn't buy one.


 How would a pf size get people to upgrade , they sit there thinking they need the extra 1mm to get better coffee .

people upgrade for functions and perceived cup differences , not pf size .

while the size is a strange choice , your emotive reaction to it is a little overkill to be honest .


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## shiner25

Mrboots2u said:


> How would a pf size get people to upgrade , they sit there thinking they need the extra 1mm to get better coffee .
> 
> people upgrade for functions and perceived cup differences , not pf size .
> 
> while the size is a strange choice , your emotive reaction to it is a little overkill to be honest .


 What i mean is 58mm is commercial. Lelit already knows this that's why their Victoria, Elizabeth and Mara ( their most expensive units ) are rocking the 58mm. While their lower end units aren't.

They know that it's harder to get accessories and could be more costly. I've already seen folks searching for accessories for the 57mm

Yes, the difference in taste won't be a factor but people want EASE of use and they don't want to have to upgrade later unless they need to.

Put in a 58 like the higher models, like most people are doing, like gaggia has done on their classic and stop messing with people. Pretty simple. Obviously someone has a different agenda at Lelit or didn't think it through. I know if I was in charge of that company i would have fired someone for that decision.


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## DavecUK

shiner25 said:


> Ah that's too bad. Yeah, I here things in the UK have got really bad. I'm from there but now in Canada. Well, if you ever get over there it would be nice to suggest to them to swap out those 57mm portafilters for 58. it's a very odd choice for them and leads me to believe they did it specifically to get folks to upgrade as their higher models like the victoria, elizabeth and mara have 58mm, so if they thought 57mm was fine they would have followed suit. I think they know and are playing the upgrade game, giving people less under $1000. Trouble is a company like Gaggia is offering 58mm on their classic. For that I applaud them even if I wouldn't buy one.


 I think for me there were more fundamental discussions to have with the owner of the company about the technical direction. The 57/58 issue is a bit of a red herring to be honest, there are bigger games afoot.

You are thinking about the now and how you would fix "what is"...I'm looking at the future, so the next "what is", doesn't need fixing.


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## shiner25

DavecUK said:


> I think for me there were more fundamental discussions to have with the owner of the company about the technical direction. The 57/58 issue is a bit of a red herring to be honest, there are bigger games afoot.


 You may be right Dave. What do you mean by red herring? And what bigger games are afoot?


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## Doram

shiner25 said:


> Trouble is a company like Gaggia is offering 58mm on their classic. For that I applaud them even if I wouldn't buy one.


 While Gaggia (and Rancilo) use 58mm, they don't put a PID in the Classic or Silvia (which IMO is more important than the size of the basket). This makes sure we never run out or something to complain about. 🙂


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## shiner25

Doram said:


> While Gaggia (and Rancilo) use 58mm, they don't put a PID in the Classic or Silvia (which IMO is more important than the size of the basket). This makes sure we never run out or something to complain about. 🙂


 LOL, yes you are right my friend.


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## profesor_historia

Doram said:


> While Gaggia (and Rancilo) use 58mm, they don't put a PID in the Classic or Silvia (which IMO is more important than the size of the basket). This makes sure we never run out or something to complain about.


I was thinking about this, why didn't Rancilio put a PID on their V6, it would have been a crazy sale I think. But then I thought they wanted to kill two birds with a stone and offering a high-end DB machine with PID and catching up with the market instead of just a single boiler one. And as the Silvia is the only domestic machine they produce then we have the Pro.

Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Doram

profesor_historia said:


> I was thinking about this, why didn't Rancilio put a PID on their V6, it would have been a crazy sale I think. But then I thought they wanted to kill two birds with a stone and offering a high-end DB machine with PID and catching up with the market instead of just a single boiler one. And as the Silvia is the only domestic machine they produce then we have the Pro.


 I ask myself the same question, and can't think of a good reason.

Silvia Pro is more than double the price of Silvia and a completely different beast, so I don't think no PID on Silvia is meant to protect the Pro (they didn't bother with a PID long before the Pro). It is very strange they left the market to the likes of Auber, mecoffee and DIY and not done it themselves.


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## DavecUK

shiner25 said:


> You may be right Dave. What do you mean by red herring? And what bigger games are afoot?


 As it's probably a year away, can't really divulge...


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## Iskanda

Rob1 said:


> I know the Xenia has a heated group, same for the Sage DB.


 We don't use the the cartridges for heating the group of the Xenia. We use them 'only' to reduce the heat up time (10-14 minutes).


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## MediumRoastSteam

Suggestion to speed up Elizabeth's (and maybe also Bianca's) initial warm up:

The machine overshoots the brew boiler to 130C and cools down naturally to the set temperature. The climb down process takes about 8 minutes or so. If both boiler heating elements are on (brew and steam) the current is alternated. As both boilers are on, this adds an extra 4 minutes to the process as both heating elements need energy supplied right from the start.

My suggestion is to turn the steam boiler heating element on during the climb down process, thus only providing current to the brew boiler initially and, once it no longer needs it during the climbdown phase, supply the energy to the steam boiler. This should reduce the warm up phase by approx. 4 minutes. This is irrelevant when the machine is in Eco mode (I.e.: brew boiler on only).


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## MCProtis

I'd love to get an official elizabeth wooden knob (or a lever!) for the steam valve, one that matches the official wooden portafilter


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## Deegee

I'm not a Lelit owner, but the Bianca was recently in the running when I bought a machine, tbh I didn't buy it because it was noisier, had rotary valves and was more lightly built than the ECM I did buy, maybe I was wrong but time well tell. However, what I am surprised hasn't appeared is a more refined metered water flow system similar to, but more simple than, the Vesuvius, they've gone halfway with the paddle, but automating that to be completely repeatable at a sub £2.5k price would be a USP it'd be hard to ignore.

Is it also time the industry moved away from spade terminals etc? The automotive, truck and plant industries only use them if they absolutely have to these days, and almost never in the presence of water, just a thought as I've seen a lot of discoloured, overheated spade terminal covers on here in the last 18 months that could be improved on. Just a thought.


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## DavecUK

@Deegee I thought the Bianca was pretty quiet, hard to believe the ECM would have been even quieter....so it must be exceptionally quiet. This is a small vid of a Bianca filling the steam boiler.

View attachment quiet bianca1.mp4


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## Deegee

Hi @DavecUK, I visited BB and they had both the Profitec 700 (internally the same as the Synch) and the Bianca side by side, we ran them both as they were the only two on my hit list, and yes, the Bianca wasn't as quiet as the Profitec, I was surprised as I didn't expect any difference in sound level, but let's be honest, it was not a significant difference, just a noticeable one. I hope that explains it, I only added those differences to the post because had the Lelit scored even on those points, I'd have come away with a Bianca and not the ECM, which, with flow control added is another £500.


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## ChrisBLN

DavecUK said:


> I can flash new firmware to LCCs, in or outside the machine. It does require some specialist kit and the knowledge to do it right as well as the hex code to flash! I doubt Lelit will make that readily available to all retailer and perhaps only a few specialists.. Although it can be read back of an already updated LCC.
> 
> When flashing you have to be careful as well, I always read off, save the existing and then flash the new. Reboot and check the flash. If the circumstances arise, I will be happy to flash any machines that are out of warranty if Lelit give me updated code (which they probably will so I can flash the test machines I have). I would simply say send the LCC with a return post envelope...I flash, pop back in and repost. You would have to check but large letter might not work.
> 
> I can also Flash Minima and Vesuvius boxes...but they have to be out of the machine.
> 
> P.S. This does assume any reflash doesn't also come on the back of a hardware wiring change. At the moment old Lelits can be reflashed to the updated 5.05C (I think it is code).


 Hey Dave,

I just found your post about flashing the LCC of Lelit machines.

Are you still doing it? I was thinking to update the LCC of my Lelit Elizabeth which has V1 on it. Is it possible to update it to V3?

Is it possible to do it my own if you could tell me how?

The alternative would be that I have to send you my LCC from Germany to the UK.

Maybe you can help on that or someone else here knows something that could help me..

Many Thanks

Christian


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## msquire

ChrisBLN said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> I just found your post about flashing the LCC of Lelit machines.
> 
> Are you still doing it? I was thinking to update the LCC of my Lelit Elizabeth which has V1 on it. Is it possible to update it to V3?
> 
> Is it possible to do it my own if you could tell me how?
> 
> The alternative would be that I have to send you my LCC from Germany to the UK.
> 
> Maybe you can help on that or someone else here knows something that could help me..
> 
> Many Thanks
> 
> Christian


 You won't find Dave on this forum any more. He's over here these days:

https://*********************.com


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