# Random thoughts on Gaggia



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It was summer 2003 when I got my first coffee machine. I bought a Gaggia Classic which was reconditioned by GaggiaUK. I think it cost me around £180 and came in the original box with accessories. I matched this up to the standard Starbucks burr grinder. As a pair they seemed well matched, or so a beginner thought.

About 18 months later I bought a Fracino Heavenly, which I thought made the shortcomings of the Gaggia stand out, ie I was able to make more than one shot at a time! I also upgraded my grinder on the advice of someone at Fracino and bought a Cunhill Tranquilo which they had used at a trade event and had stood ever since. I joined a coffee forum at that point which is now defunct, but the advice and Wiki on there was really good, and at that point I began to realise that coffee was more of a science than I had thought.

Phillips bought the Gaggia name, in the same way that MFI bought the trade name Hygiena. When I bought mine, 10 years ago, I think the retail price new was circa £300. Why then, are you able to buy a new one for circa £165? The answer lies in the fact, that the entry level coffee market has been swamped by the POD system. This convenient thing that allows you to buy a spoonful of coffee in a plastic tub, a machine to put it in, a button to press and away you go. I am convinced, that in years to come, prospective new house purchasers, will be shown around kitchens where there are no ovens, but a microwave for every bedroom as who bothers to cook nowadays?

The reason you can buy a Classic for nearly 50% of the original Gaggia price, is that Phillips now see the POD market as competition and have had to reduce the build quality substantially to be able to reduce the price. So, the current machine is a Gaggia by name, but not by build, spirit or anything else.

To all you guys and gals out there at the starting point, please research a bit more! Does it make sense matching a cheap burr grinder to a Classic? Yes. Does it make sense matching that same cheap burr grinder to a Sylvia or better quality machine.....no. Does it make sense, having a Gaggia Classic then matching it to a SJ or Vario......some will say yes, some will say no. Personally, I cannot see how the Classic can bring out the best in a grinder which is many divisions above, and thats whether it has a Pid, a Sylvia steam wand or anything else!

I am not trying to be offensive to any Gaggia owners by my ramblings, but in a way, I do question the use of forums in general, where no one is willing to question values that seem to be readily accepted. You will never be a better tennis player, by only playing and beating people who are worse than you.


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## mookielagoo (Dec 12, 2012)

If the shortcomings were only that you could pour one shot at a time with the classic then that's a minor point for me - Undesirable reliability and performance issues do not appear to be well reported with the Classic despite Phillip's influence...Manufactures will forever be keeping costs down (especially in this economic climate) by skimming here and there...The proof is in the durability, the performance and ultimately the tasting (the 'procedure' in getting repeatability every time is the ultimate key with making the black stuff!!)..Yes there are times when i pull a 'god shot' with the classic and sometimes it's just o.k...A good grinder is part of the equation and is one of the tools that you should'nt need to upgrade if you get a good one in the first place.....The POD market is bound to attract as it's convenient and well marketed to busy professionals who dont want to think about warming a machine for half an hour and diallng in a grinder- I dont think this has meant that Gaggia has devalued as a brand it has meant that hobbyists can get involved (at a price that they can afford) - then again, there are some folk that couldnt imagine spending £200+ on a machine and decent grinder)...Its horses for courses im afraid...cheers


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## alisingh (Dec 31, 2012)

Interesting comments. I bought my Gaggia Baby Class about a year before Phillips took it over. It was well over £200 (that was a reduced price, and I was pleased to get a bargain.). I was also wondering why they have become cheaper. Makes me think more favourably of it if it may be a better machine.

Still looking to upgrade for my birthday though!!


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## willowkevin (Dec 2, 2012)

I've recently bought a second hand Classic to try for a change, I've used a mocha pot for years and years for a large breakfast robusta coffee with milk so initially struggled to make the same size coffee with it on a morning! From advice on here on weights and extraction quantities I've learned how to use the machine properly and can produce a nice 1 or 2 espresso (which is poured into a bigger mug with steamed milk, I'm like a kid with the steamer btw!).

I class it as properly as the drink tastes nice and I can throw the solid waste puck from my back door to the vegetable garden without it breaking up in flight!









But I have to admit that I'm back with the mocha pot on a morning now... The Gaggia usually gets used for a smaller coffee during the evening when I have time to warm it up properly, a good machine but for me not as practical as a mocha pot or french press.

I have a small machine shop in my garden shed, and intend to make a naked type of portafiler at some point to try, and am looking at a summer project to try and construct a lever type machine although that's still in the "thought" stage...


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

I'll swing the question another way.... Why shouldn't an electronic item in a long production run (~10 years) not be cheaper over time? I would presume that initial production/design related costs got paid off years ago.

What you also don't know is the Wholesale price and whether that has significantly reduced over time (or whether retailers are having to reduce their margin). For example, Fenwicks in Newcastle used to have the Classic on sale almost every year with the price reduced from £299 to £199 (this at a time when £299 was the standard price). I bought mine in the sale and they told me that they didn't have them in stock but would sell it at the sale price if I didn't mind waiting..... what that tells me is that the Wholesale price was less than £199 as they weren't selling it at the price to reduce stock levels - therefore they must have still being making a profit, and that's not far off the £189 Amazon price today.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just to recap..........I am not knocking Gaggia Classics or their owners. I am questioning the blind following of some by others without thinking things through. Crikey, I wish I had £1 for every mistake I have made, but anyone can make a mistake, the secret is in learning from them. Coffee is about enjoyment, and if you enjoy supermarket ground coffee in your pot, who am I to tell you that you are wrong. All I am saying, is coffee is a journey, that usually is limited only by experience and cheque book!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Classic-RI8161-Machine-Professional-Stainless/dp/B0000C72XS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1358684947&sr=8-1

£164.99

Point is Gaggia now consider their competitive market to be Pods, capsules etc, so they have had to reduce their price to match that market. If you want to imagine that the component parts have held their own or even increased due to market forces, then I suggest you look out of the window and see if you can spot a cloud, you know, those ones made out of marshmallow!


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

The point I'm trying to make is that we don't know what makes up the overall cost of the unit. Yes I expect raw material costs to increase over time (although you can negate manufacturing costs by making parts in cheaper countries, or even making the unit more efficiently by removing non-value-added activities), however the relative cost of the initial design and production set-up costs being paid off have a factor in offsetting those cost increases. In fact the RRP for a Classic continues to be £300.

P.S. £189.10 is what Amazon will sell you one for, £164.99 is sold by Neteletrix.


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## Sam__G (Sep 4, 2011)

I have a PID'd classic and a Vario, and an MC2 sitting unused in a cupboard... For the price of the PID and Vario (+sale price of the Gaggia) I could afford a Cherub or similar with the MC2 but I would much rather have the Classic and a decent grinder than a HX and iberital... Its pretty stable with the PID added, makes a decent espresso and microfoam is a doddle, would I buy it again though? Not a chance in hell, but that said I wouldn't touch a home espresso machine with a bargepole if I was starting again personally... Would go 100% brewed at home.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

I stated my journey with a pod system, which I found a decent drink but I did want learn how to make 'proper' espresso so I bought a Classic and MDF grinder and joined this forum.

I know I'm just starting my journey but am happy I made the jump to real espresso machine. Rather than a press a button on a pod machine.

At the moment the Classic isn't miles ahead, in taste, to the pod system IMHO but I want to carry on my upgrade journey, and am getting good advice on this forum.

I see the Classic as a stepping stone and the price is now reasonable until funds grow.

Everyone's journey is different but I think Gaggia have priced this well to compete with the pod system, but people need to do their own research and decide pod or 'a lifestyle change'

Since moving to the Gaggia I have found myself a new hobby that will soon empty my wallet.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Interesting as a new owner of a classic having previously considered pod machines what could I have done better by purchasing for £160?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

HDAV, you have done the right thing IMHO. But, as always, there is a caveat! A friend of mine once said to me, if you buy a 1953 Land Rover and stick a V8 engine in, it is till just a 1953 Land Rover (but with a V8 engine in). I would say, buy it, own it, love it and learn from it, and when you are ready, upgrade to the next level, or whatever your pocket or conscience tells you to. But, no one will ever convince me that a Classic can do justice to a SJ, or vice versa.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But, no one will ever convince me that a Classic can do justice to a SJ, or vice versa.


SJ? Suzuki SJ?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

SJ is forum slang for a Mazzer Super Jolly!


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

I think most people who buy a Gaggia Classic are aware that this machine isn't going to last them a lifetime and that they'll be suffering from upgradatis soon enough. This is why they'd rather buy a grinder which is a higher class than the Gaggia so they don't need to buy another one in a year.


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## PhilT (Jan 19, 2013)

Jason1wood said:


> ... so I bought a Classic and MDF grinder and joined this forum.
> 
> I know I'm just starting my journey but am happy I made the jump to real espresso machine. Rather than a press a button on a pod machine.
> 
> At the moment the Classic isn't miles ahead, in taste, to the pod system IMHO but I want to carry on my upgrade journey, and am getting good advice on this forum....


Jason, what beans do you use? This can make a big difference. How are you finding the MDF grinder? Have you managed to get the right granularity?

My iMini Grinder is coming today and I'll be practising on my Classic until I make up my mind on my next machine. When I bought my Classic there was no such thing as a POD machine! I think I paid about £250. It never occurred to me that I'd need a grinder let alone a burr one. My wife at the time bought me a blade grinder which I thought was cool and it was a slight improvement over pre-ground but I thought it was a lot of effort for a small gain. Now I understand why!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Same with any hobby/interest. You ask ''whats the bare minimum to get my foot in the door to this world''..truth being the Gaggia Classic is indeed that, the bare minimum. You can make very good espresso with it, I done so myself. But then the frustration builds, you want a faster recovery time, a bigger tank, temperature control, more steam power..... passion grows and next thing you know you've spent over a grand on a new machine ; )


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

PhilT said:


> Jason, what beans do you use? This can make a big difference. How are you finding the MDF grinder? Have you managed to get the right granularity?!


Hi Phil, I'm getting various bean types from my local roaster, Pumphreys.

I've dialled the MDF in and am getting great shots, 18g in, 30g out @ 30second pours.

Tasted good to me but I usually dring lattes and Americano with sugar, trying to ween myself off the sugar.

I quite fancy a Cherub or a second hand Expobar next and will see how the MDF copes, will think ill have to up the grinder too. I have a great set of Classic, MDF grinder, the Gaggia base with knock box, with all accessories which I will pass on to a newbie in a few weeks to finance my new machine.

Little did I know, espresso gets you hooked! Haha


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Also posted on a similar thread in the Gaggia forum.



> I have a new (Philips) Gaggia Classic. It hasn't missed a beat for 12 months now. The steam valve could close a little tighter, but it is fine as long as I am quite firm with it. Apparently it has the small solenoid and it is recommended that you shouldn't backflush, but I have ignored that and haven't run into any problems. I've swapped the steam wand, modded the OPV and fitted a DIY PID so I'm quite familiar with the workings. It is a simple and clever design and easy to maintain. The only question mark I have is over Philips service, which I haven't needed to use, so it would be unfair for me to comment.
> 
> The machines I'd consider swapping it for are 3/4 times the price I paid for it, and it is even cheaper now.


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

And I started with a Gaggia classic because I wanted to make my own espresso rather than have a pod do it for me. Next step, thanks to my sister in law, was the need to buy a grinder. I have that now and have been experimenting with a variety of beans and grinds. All very well, but with us preferring milk based coffees, the Gaggia is becoming frustrating for any more than a single cup. So, now I'm looking at changing the espresso machine. I've dropped hints to my wife. I haven't had the scolding look (yet) but I can feel a wallet emptying experience in the wings. The more I look the higher the price.... And there we are trying to be good about saving some money now that we have only one income.

Who would have thought that a simple thing like a cup of coffee (which I thought came perfectly acceptably freeze dried in a glass jar from Tesco for a few quid until very recently) could easily liberate my families inheritance of a thousand pounds or more !

Perhaps I need a cheaper hobby, burning fivers, or something like that...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

At least you should have to upgrade the grinder!


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## GS11 (Feb 20, 2013)

what year did phillips take over gaggia?


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## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

GS11 said:


> what year did phillips take over gaggia?


bought by Saeco in 1999 which is philips subsidiary since 2009 via Wikipedia


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

series530 said:


> And I started with a Gaggia classic because I wanted to make my own espresso rather than have a pod do it for me. Next step, thanks to my sister in law, was the need to buy a grinder. I have that now and have been experimenting with a variety of beans and grinds. All very well, but with us preferring milk based coffees, the Gaggia is becoming frustrating for any more than a single cup.


Do you have a Rancilio wand on it?


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

HDAV said:


> Do you have a Rancilio wand on it?


I do, yes ... and what a huge improvement it makes too!


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> At least you should have to upgrade the grinder!


should, or shouldn't ? .... I hope I chose reasonably wisely


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

series530 said:


> I do, yes ... and what a huge improvement it makes too!


I find with mine i can do enough for 2 large latte's my jug isnt any bigger when the light goes out do you stop? Then wait for it to come back on? I just power on through and it takes a little while but even at Costa/Starbucks they steam the milk per 1/2 drinks and not 2 pints at a time!

TO make a large latte to take to work in a starbucks insulated mug (they are top) takes 4-5 min from start to finish Double shot + steamed milk.


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

I wait for the light to come on, blow some steam through, drop the wand into the jug and plough on regardless of the light. It all seems to come out nicely (to my eyes anyway).

Where the Gaggia becomes an issue is with two drinks: time I've poured the second shot and added the milk the first shot has long since lost most of its crema and is looking a bit sorry for itself. It would be really nice to be able to draw the milk and the espresso without having to think about temperature adjustment with a single boiler or structuring the shot preparation so as to maximise things with a single temperature.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

series530 said:


> should, or shouldn't ? .... I hope I chose reasonably wisely


Sorry you should not


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Sorry you should not


Phew !!!!!!


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