# Always the same time before coffee appears



## Tigermad (Sep 7, 2015)

Hello. Still getting used to my Expobar. I have the fineness set about right now for the beans I am using. But no matter what I do it always takes around 10 seconds before the coffee appears through the screen, the only way to make it quicker is to drastically make it coarser and the whole thing runs too fast then. Is 10 seconds too long before it starts thus making it only 15 seconds actually pouring (25 in total)?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I wouldn't worry. I've read that it should be between 5 and 8 secs, but sometimes it takes longer, sometimes not quite so. Are you weighting the grinds? How are you tamping it? More importantly, make sure that, to start with, you get a ratio that your tastebuds are pleased with, like, 18g in and 36g out without worrying too much about the actual time.


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

I think anything between 6 and 12 seconds is ok, with my classic it would be 10-12 seconds but i'd let the pour go on for maybe 35 secs....down to finding out what you like.


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## Tigermad (Sep 7, 2015)

pessutojr said:


> I wouldn't worry. I've read that it should be between 5 and 8 secs, but sometimes it takes longer, sometimes not quite so. Are you weighting the grinds? How are you tamping it? More importantly, make sure that, to start with, you get a ratio that your tastebuds are pleased with, like, 18g in and 36g out without worrying too much about the actual time.


Thanks, yes weighing them. I was using 18g in my naked 36g out but was not too happy it's it so switched to standard 14g portafilter so I wouldn't waste so much coffee, upped the output to 50g, much preferred this.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

As long as you like the taste, then you are on a winning path, in my opinion. Experiment, try different things, but the key is to change one variable at a time so you know what works and what does not work for you. Good luck!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As above- let taste be your guide ....10 seconds isnt anything to worry about if the taste is balanced


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

As above, its probably nothing to worry about. However a long time to the first drops was a sign that the pump on my machine was not pumping fast enough. Easy enough to test by running the group with no PF into a jug and weighing the output, it should pump about 220ml (1ml = 1g) in 20 seconds.


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

That's is because the pump does not ramp the pressure up until this period has passed. Watch the pressure gauge. It act like a pre infusion and is the pressure profile of the machine. Mine is exactly the same


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## Tigermad (Sep 7, 2015)

Yes Row said:


> That's is because the pump does not ramp the pressure up until this period has passed. Watch the pressure gauge. It act like a pre infusion and is the pressure profile of the machine. Mine is exactly the same


Cheers. So technically if I wanted a 25 second shot I should time it when the coffee starts coming out in that case. That's probably why my coffee is always under extracted. Imo.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Tigermad said:


> Cheers. So technically if I wanted a 25 second shot I should time it when the coffee starts coming out in that case. That's probably why my coffee is always under extracted. Imo.


Not exactly, when people say "a 25 second shot" they mean from the moment you activate the machine, not from the moment the first drops appear.


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## Tigermad (Sep 7, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Not exactly, when people say "a 25 second shot" they mean from the moment you activate the machine, not from the moment the first drops appear.


Surely it depends when it starts appearing though. What happens if it spends 20 seconds until it pours then 5 seconds quickly in to the cup. This would taste different to one that starts after 5 seconds and then spends 20 seconds to get to the correct weight.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dont get hung up on time ..just measure it the same way each time

Most people measure and talk about a pump shot from when they turn the pump on

Ergo if you want to use a common language then i suggest you time this way as well

But Dont adjust based on seconds and time - work to a recipe ( weight in and out ) - adjust the grind based on what you what to balance or achieve in the cup ( sweetness / mouthfeel )

as a result of the changes you make to grind times will change - but be guided by the recipe and the taste - not becuase it was one second shorter than an arbitary time


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

25 seconds isn't an absolute it's a guide. I've had quite a few shots that run much lower weight than yours at a higher time. In my opinion 50g outputs (think you said) in 25 seconds is probably a bit fast for it to be tasty but I'm still learning


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> 25 seconds isn't an absolute it's a guide. I've had quite a few shots that run much lower weight than yours at a higher time. In my opinion 50g outputs (think you said) in 25 seconds is probably a bit fast for it to be tasty but I'm still learning


Devil's advocate here ....

on the hand you are saying time isn't important ?

on the other suggesting that 20 > 50 might not be tasty coz its over 25 seconds ?

Depends on the temp > coffee > preference > grinder

Could be tasty , ive had tasty in that time


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## Tigermad (Sep 7, 2015)

I've gone back to the standard dual spouted 14g portafilter for the time being. What I can't get my head around is you are supposed to make sure the extraction comes out equal and like rat tails but if you want a slower extraction surely it will no longer come out like rat tails but more like morse code .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tigermad said:


> I've gone back to the standard dual spouted 14g portafilter for the time being. What I can't get my head around is you are supposed to make sure the extraction comes out equal and like rat tails but if you want a slower extraction surely it will no longer come out like rat tails but more like morse code .


Ignore rat tails and mouse tails - your over complicating what you are looking for

weight in > weight out > taste and adjust

Yeah coming out either side might show you an even extraction , a naked pf will show you more though , and stop you chasing grind adjustments , as you can see if a shot is channeling or not. This is a visual indicator that you can do something about > change distribution in basket


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Tigermad said:


> I've gone back to the standard dual spouted 14g portafilter for the time being. What I can't get my head around is you are supposed to make sure the extraction comes out equal and like rat tails but if you want a slower extraction surely it will no longer come out like rat tails but more like morse code .


If you're using a spouted portafilter you won't see any 'tails'? If you have a naked PF I'd recommend using it, as boots says you'll be able to see all sorts of problems that the spouted PF hides. Poor distribution and prep leading to channeling, spritzers, dead spots etc.

Also worth noting that if the coffee doesn't exit the spouts equally, your machine might not be level.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

risky said:


> If you're using a spouted portafilter you won't see any 'tails'?.


Yes you should - it's a reference to the way the espresso runs off the spouts, I don't quite see it myself but have heard the reference a fair amount. I'm not suggesting it's particularly important but it is always with reference to a portafilter with a spout - as far as I'm aware.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jlarkin said:


> Yes you should - it's a reference to the way the espresso runs off the spouts, I don't quite see it myself but have heard the reference a fair amount. I'm not suggesting it's particularly important but it is always with reference to a portafilter with a spout - as far as I'm aware.


Not true, mouse tails is most certainly used to refer to the stream of coffee that appears using a naked portafilter, but I do think this is in addition to is being used to describe the stream from a spout as well.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

99% of the time I get even 'mouse tails' from my double-spouts when making espresso. Usually first signs are between 8 to 12 secs during circa 30 secs extractions.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Rats tail = naked

mouse tails = spouts

time = contact time = when water first comes into contact with the coffee = when you lift the lever.

25 seconds is probably a bit short . Try 30 seconds , or even 35.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Rats tail = naked
> 
> mouse tails = spouts


I have either never seen, or never noticed that before.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Given a mouse tail is approx half the width of a rat's tail ....makes perfect sense to me.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Indeed, I can see the idea behind it, but not sure there is a logic in having two separate terms for essentially the same thing.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

This is the first I've ever heard of mouse tails and spouts. Only ever heard of a rats tail from a naked. But we digress...


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I say potato, you say potato. Oh wait isn't that coffeechap's line!


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