# Grinder choice, bang for buck, burr size & what would be a decent upgrade for ~Â£500



## Taff (May 5, 2015)

My next upgrade on my main setup will be my grinder, from the SJ I now have. I could put 2-300 into the upgrade (plus selling the SJ), so long as it really was an upgrade. New/ SH doesnt matter for me - I'm pretty sure I'll be second hand though!

I'm REALLY confused as to what people would recommend as an upgrade and would love some qualified recommendations.

My primary concern is quality in the cup. I dont really care if this means I have to single dose or fill a hopper up. I go through 1/2-3/4 a kilo a week in work (coffee for me and customers). The SJ is making great coffee, yes the doser means I waste more coffee than I otherwise would, but (and heres my biggest dilemma) getting a decent 64mm burr set with all the nice on demand stuff and a timer would cost ~5-600 new and I'm not sure I'd notice anything in the cup.

So am I just better getting the biggest burrset I can? Mazzer major seems to fit the bill and seems hard to beat - on the basis that I cant see anywhere else I can get bigger than 83mm burrs in budget.

Lots of new stuff about like the Eureka 75 - is it worth the extra push to get one and would it produce better results than a Major?

I dont think a 65e will be an upgrade - but the e37s in the classifieds at the moment is very tempting.. but are ceado 83mm burrs better than mazzer 83mm burrs?

If I could push into the ï¿½700 price bracket do I gain anything? I'm sure there will be some k30's available soon - are they on another level to a Major/ e37/ compak equivalent?

All commments much appreciated! TiA


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mythos is amazing *BUT* (for transparencies sake) I would say that as I am selling one (for a bit more!).

It really is good though!

I can't compare to SJ because I've never had one!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Ceado for sale just now has 64mm burrs - it's a 37, not a 37s.

Do you change beans a lot, i.e. is there a reason you would want to single dose? Seems from the amount of coffee you're drinking on demand would be sensible.

Mazzer Royal with a timer will probably be biggest bang for your buck. There was lots I liked about the K30 but after it started jamming during service it was curtains for me. This only happened with one bean I used, Foundry Yirg which is a hard bean, but it was the bean I use on the stall.

The Olympus sounds good but it's still a bit of an unknown quantity.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Would you go for another doser?

Are you limited by height or size?

£700 puts you towards a used Mythos territory


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

urbanbumpkin said:


> �700 puts you towards a used Mythos territory


And £800 buys you a low mileage one - today!

p.s. I'll be quiet now.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

If you were considering a Mazzer major, I would opt for the royal as it is better at single dosing should you choose to and its slower spin speed means it doesn't spray coffee all over the place. Biggest issue might be the weight and size of the royal. As far as OD grinders go there are many cheeky deals out there (major example recently), you should be able to get big upgrade for sub £500 no need to push yourself to far atvthr moment.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This really is a personal thing. My advice to you, would be to draw up a shortlist based on other peoples points, then go and try them out. otherwise, you might be caught well short. Take the olympus that I am banging on about. In my view, it is really good, but thats my view. I have not bothered about my E10 since I started using this and as it happens, I have bought a Mythos which arrives today so that I can compare the two, as best I can. But you could take my advice and buy one and be singularly undwerwhelmed, and that is why I say, draw up a short list then get on your bike!

Bigger burst as a rule of thumb, seems to be the flavour of the day. The Mazzers, as much as I dislike them are bullet proof and seen by many as a good bet. At then end of the day, ignoring any complicated electronics, a grinder is burrs, motor and case, all of which you cal modify/repair.

£800 spent on a Mythos, would be money well spent. If I am right, and please correct me, the one jonc has is a couple of years old but has never been used. The Titanium burrs will outlive you and you will not be disappointed with the results. either in the cup or delivery thereof. It is on demand. because it has an auger to draw the beans into the throat, it virtually does away with pop corning meaning you can single dose. As the burrs are flat but and mounted at a 45 degree angle straight above the exit chute, then retention is minimal. If you could stretch to £800, then this is what to go for.

If you cannot and want new, then the Olympus on forum special is very appealing. If you want more bang for your buck, then go second hand Mazzer.


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

No Size limitations.. Thanks jonc - as tempting as yours is, I'm not about to drop 800 on a mythos!

A doser isnt perfect and I'd prefer OD, but taste and grinding performance is #1 priority - on a limited budget if this means a doser then no problem (I'm actually liking the way the doser makes the coffee nice and even in the SJ) I don't change beans that often. I find some I like and get 350/500g not to say I dont try new ones, but would normall buy 200/220/250g to try a new bean - so single dosing not really necessary.

Yep, I saw the ceado was an e37 with the older smaller burrs thanks Jeebs. Jamming aside would you say the K30 produced better coffee than a big mazzer?


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> If you want more bang for your buck, then go second hand Mazzer.


Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I think grinders are changing beyond recognition at them moment as we start to understand a lot more about the process - I have a feeling in a couple of years time the tech in the Peak (EK on demand I guess you could call it) and the Mythos will be available at a very good price point. I'm keen not to be an early adopter.

I guess my question really distills down to for my use (IE not hundreds of cups a day) does an e37s/ e8/e10/ k30 offer much over a royal/ major with good burrs in the cup? I exclude mythos and peak (and EK to a degree) as I think they are offering something new (the future?!) and are obviously way out of budget!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I didn't have them side by side and didn't try the same beans so can't do a direct comparison. Royal was probably a bit better in the cup but the K30 was much easier to use. K30 is a pain to clean out. Royal was more faff single dosing.

There'll be a bit more retention on the Royal but if you're using a lot of coffee that's not so much of an issue.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Taff said:


> Thanks for the comprehensive reply. I think grinders are changing beyond recognition at them moment as we start to understand a lot more about the process - I have a feeling in a couple of years time the tech in the Peak (EK on demand I guess you could call it) and the Mythos will be available at a very good price point. I'm keen not to be an early adopter.
> 
> I guess my question really distills down to for my use (IE not hundreds of cups a day) does an e37s/ e8/e10/ k30 offer much over a royal/ major with good burrs in the cup? I exclude mythos and peak (and EK to a degree) as I think they are offering something new (the future?!) and are obviously way out of budget!


The reason Mazzers are good value, is that there are loads of them out there and they are easily fixable, and they do a good job. coffee chap has said and quite correctly, that the Royal if you have the space is the one to go for and I agree whole heartedly. the other grinders you mention are far less common second hand. The Ceados are an unknown quantity and I think the flat burr one spins too quickly. The Ek is a marmite grinder. The K30 is over rated, competent but with that burr size, what does it offer. One grinder worth a look, would be a Brasilia RR55 OD, but the electronics are very old. If you buy a mazzer now how much are you going to lose if you sell it in 2 years?

Mahlkonig will do with the Peak exactly what they did with the EK....market it big time, then put it in short supply, then drip feed the market then bang the price up


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Thanks for all the detailed & fast responses gents.

My initial biggest burrs = biggest bang for buck seems valid (though I understand there are compromises with Physical size, retention, waste etc) and it sounds like the ~£600-£1000 user friendly OD machines dont offer anything more in the cup than a good old used Mazzer.

I'm going to BB this week to help the old man decide on a setup so I'll be sure to play with a few then which I'm sure will help me.

For now.. anyone know of a nice used royal or major?!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Speak to coffeechap, he's got piles of them


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Speak to coffeechap, he's got piles of them


Veritable grinder mountain!!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Veritable grinder mountain!!


Visible from space


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Mazzer are like antiques. They increase in value with age and use.

New ones are worth jack sh1t


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

You can't go wrong with a Royal from CC.

Side by side with my Mythos I thought the Royal had the edge in the cup.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Visible from space


More than likely


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

We have a Royal that Callum refurbished. It has the timer mod, new burrs, new hopper and new paint job. Let me know if you're interested.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> We have a Royal that Callum refurbished. It has the timer mod, new burrs, new hopper and new paint job. Let me know if you're interested.


Is that the one with his custom funnel and timer he made himself?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

No I believe it's a doser with auber timers (the only way to go)


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Yes, I think I have a picture somewhere.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> We have a Royal that Callum refurbished. It has the timer mod, new burrs, new hopper and new paint job. Let me know if you're interested.


I've seen this and it's nice, if you can live with a doser then it'll be just the ticket


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)




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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Yes, I think I have a picture somewhere.


I can send them on if you need them


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

There's another one too but that needs finishing off and it's finding the time. The timer is done, it's just the other mods and the paint on that one.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You might need to state a price lee as you have offered it on the thread


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Ahh no, CC was right, thinking of a different mod.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I reckon we could let it go for £550. Buyer would need to arrange collection or we could arrange a courier at £30


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I'm sure someone will let me know if I need to move this to a for sale bit. Apologies if it's in the wrong place. I'll need to do more photos first. We have a few grinders and commercial coffee machines that we need to move on, serious space shortage.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Do you want to offer it to OP first? If so I [think I] can break out to a sales thread with that stipulation?

Key word = 'think' (newbie moderator)


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Thanks for the Offer Foundry - a bit steep for me as I've been enlightened as to where I can get 'project' ones from that i can do to my own specs. Any one else who wants one is welcome to jump in.

Foundry - feel free to PM me what espresso machines you have for sale, always interested in an upgrade!

cheers.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

New thread here:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?24819-Modded-Mazzer-Royal-%C2%A3550


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

+1 for this baby!


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> ...The Ceados are an unknown quantity and I think the flat burr one spins too quickly...


Oi! That's twice I've seen you condemning the E37s, the E8 spins only 75RPM slower.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Interesting that the mythos in standard form spins at the same 1400 rpm! Used to be your favourite Dave!


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## salty dog (Jun 6, 2015)

The OLD MAN is quite looking forward to joining the young blood at BB!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh the r120 also 1400 rpm and the ek43 1460 rpm spin speed is not everything


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Oh the r120 also 1400 rpm and the ek43 1460 rpm spin speed is not everything


Agree , Any taste differences between machine's is more likely a function of normal barista inconsistencies , than a few rpm here or there


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Oh I dont know. I can taste a difference of 50rpm in the cup


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Oh the r120 also 1400 rpm and the ek43 1460 rpm spin speed is not everything


Major v Royal?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Spazbarista said:


> Oh I dont know. I can taste a difference of 50rpm in the cup


At 120 BPM too ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Major v Royal?


Royal is 900 rpm and it makes a difference in the delivery into the chamber for sure, but royal also has a 900 watt motor


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

Lid the Op ever find a grinder?


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## mrsimba (Mar 17, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> Royal is 900 rpm and it makes a difference in the delivery into the chamber for sure, but royal also has a 900 watt motor


This where I'm most interested in comparing the 65e to the 75e, yes the 75e has the larger burrs, but with an also larger motor the rpm drops 500 from 1400 to 900 & that's where the 'upgrade' should be over the two machines


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Orangertange said:


> Lid the Op ever find a grinder?


Not as far as I can see. Was offered a modded Royal from foundry and turned it down in favour of getting one and modding it himself.


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Orangertange said:


> Lid the Op ever find a grinder?


Sort of! I now have a direction, which is what I wanted. @jeebsy s comment on the clima thread says it all - for home use a royal is as good/ better in the cup than the mythos..

Was at BB today helping my dad spend some money on a new setup and the burr size is king theory was further supported. We were kindly given 'his' ECM barista to play with, and all their demo grinders and the same beans. The Ceado e37s wat the only 83mm burrset we tried, and was head and shoulders over all the next biggest (64mm) burrset grinders. There was instantly more layers to the flavour of the coffee, and you could taste the subtleties more.

Now keeping my eye out for a cheap royal for a project.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Taff said:


> Sort of! I now have a direction, which is what I wanted. @jeebsy s comment on the clima thread says it all - for home use a royal is as good/ better in the cup than the mythos..


There's qualifications to that but doing a cost benefit the Royals are hard to beat


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> There's qualifications to that but doing a cost benefit the Royals are hard to beat


sorry i've paraphrased a bit.. for me the cost/ benefit was the reason for starting this thread.. After tasting the improvement of +19mm on burr size today, I'm keen to keen to get going with it!


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