# 3:1 ratios, espresso and refracting



## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Curious if anyone here read this and tried 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratios with their espresso:

https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2017/12/17/the-21-ratio

?

I pulled a few 3:1s recently, using the VST 7g single, 8g in 24g and was fairly shocked to see 23% extractions. Not uber tasty I'll be honest, but pretty big eye opener, for me at least.

T.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dsc said:


> Curious if anyone here read this and tried 2.5:1 or 3:1 ratios with their espresso:
> 
> https://www.scottrao.com/blog/2017/12/17/the-21-ratio
> 
> ...


Why not loosen up the grind & pull the EY back?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I've done so already, I was simply surprised how high a lungo on a single can go. Also shows fairly well how higher doesn't mean better.

T.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dsc said:


> I've done so already, I was simply surprised how high a lungo on a single can go. Also shows fairly well how higher doesn't mean better.
> 
> T.


Brew ratio is the biggest driver in extraction (for a given grind), the drink should just get weaker the longer you go (the limit being how weak it is before you stop enjoying the intensity), it can go higher but if that detracts from the flavour balance, there's not much point.

Likewise, if 1:2 limits extraction, going a little weaker to lift sweetness & get away from sourness, going longer might be preferable?

1:3 isn't really a lungo in broader espresso terms. I don't mind espresso as low as 3-4%TDS.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

That's the thing, I always assumed that the longer the extraction past the usually picked 2:1 the more diluted the brew will be. I've pulled shots were I had lower ext at 2:1 than 3:1. Perhaps it just channels more extremely at the start and later on evens out increasing the extraction rate a bit?

Most sources I've seen mark 3:1 ratio territory as lungo, including VST own refractometer software. What's the other definition?

T.


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

You might want to read this: https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/espresso-recipes-understanding-yield

It explains pretty well how yield impacts both extraction and strength.

"At the very end of the shot, yield is increasing very quickly, strength is decreasing very quickly, and extraction is increasing very slowly. You need more fresh water and longer contact time to get those last bits of flavour out of the grinds. Those difficult last bits of flavour are what people who chase a higher extraction are after. They're OK with losing a bit of strength to get them."


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dsc said:


> Most sources I've seen mark 3:1 ratio territory as lungo, including VST own refractometer software. What's the other definition?
> 
> T.


Illy's is the widest for espresso but the older definitions use mL rather than g output, Illy averages about 1:4.6, SCAA & INEI average a little over 1:3.5.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Illy's is the widest for espresso but the older definitions use mL rather than g output, Illy averages about 1:4.6, SCAA & INEI average a little over 1:3.5.


Interesting, has SCAA definition changed recently? Fairly sure VST software shows SCAA marked areas for extraction rates for ristretto / espresso / lungo and when I put in the in / out weights I'm always smack bang in the middle of a lungo line.

T.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dsc said:


> Interesting, has SCAA definition changed recently? Fairly sure VST software shows SCAA marked areas for extraction rates for ristretto / espresso / lungo and when I put in the in / out weights I'm always smack bang in the middle of a lungo line.
> 
> T.


The SCAA chart (based on earlier CBI/MRI parameters) is in the brewed coffee mode. I'm not aware of an "SCAA" brew chart for espresso.

http://coffeeofday.com/coffee-answers/espresso/


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Indeed it's not SCAA (just checked), must be a VST outline based on some other data.

T.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I probably use around 2.5 or 2.6:1 for mine. Over the years I found this best suits my taste.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Tried the same with a 17g VST basket (16g of coffee), this time I bean fed the grinder (run the grinder empty and drop no more than 1-2 beans at a time to eliminate any back force from a full dose of beans), had to guess the right setting as with this feeding method you have to grind much finer than normal and even though it was too coarse (shot took maybe 15sec) I still got over 22% extraction in a 50ml brew. Much better tasting than a single with the same ratio which is also a positive. Need to experiment with doables more...

T.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

17 in, 45 out, high 23% at the shop at the moment. Tastiest espresso I've ever served.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Scotford said:


> 17 in, 45 out, high 23% at the shop at the moment. Tastiest espresso I've ever served.


What grinder is this on @Scotford?

T.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

dsc said:


> What grinder is this on @Scotford?
> 
> T.


Mythos.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Curious if anyone with a conic Kafatek can try a ratio close to 3:1 and report back (refract or simply taste)?

T.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Scotford said:


> 17 in, 45 out, high 23% at the shop at the moment. Tastiest espresso I've ever served.


Almost exactly the same as me...


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Almost exactly the same as me...


A recipe from the gods


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Scotford said:


> A recipe from the gods


I was not likening you to a god...just a minor deity


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

davecuk said:


> i was not likening you to a god...just a minor deity


blasphemy


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Scotford said:


> 17 in, 45 out, high 23% at the shop at the moment. Tastiest espresso I've ever served.


Is this replicable for people who don't want to/can't measure EY?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jon said:


> Is this replicable for people who don't want to/can't measure EY?


If it's the same ratio & tasty, then yes. If it's the same ratio & not tasty adjust grind until it is.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Jon said:


> Is this replicable for people who don't want to/can't measure EY?


Yeah. Put 17 in and get 45 out. Set your grind to a point where it tastes amazing!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Scotford said:


> Yeah. Put 17 in and get 45 out. Set your grind to a point where it tastes amazing!


I wondered what that setting was for


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I wondered what that setting was for


It's right after "good but not yet amazing" on the dial









Just pulled another double, similar set up, 16g in, 46g out (was aiming for 45g), tightened the grind a bit more, but got some fairly bad side channeling at the start (and most likely throughout). Still managed to get 23% extraction, but taste wasn't as good as the 22% most likely due to the uneven puck extraction.

T.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

What sort of times are these 3:1 extractions taking? Assume that's relevant?! Will my E8 be capable? What about the 75e?!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jon said:


> What sort of times are these 3:1 extractions taking? Assume that's relevant?! Will my E8 be capable? What about the 75e?!


If you can pull shorter shots that taste good, going longer won't present any issues for the grinder.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

dsc said:


> It's right after "good but not yet amazing" on the dial
> 
> T.


How right you are, I've been reading upside all these years it's just before what I thought was pob shot!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

MWJB said:


> If you can pull shorter shots that taste good, going longer won't present any issues for the grinder.


How little I really know... ?


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Typical shots for me are are in the 1:2.5 to 1:3 range although with light roasted washed Kenyans or Ethiopians I might push further into 1:4 territory. Typical recipe would be 20g in and 50g to 60g out. 22% to 23% EY was generally tasting pretty good for me.

Since getting the new SSP burrs in I've been mucking around with 1:1 and 1:1.5 ratios too which are tasting awesome with around 40g of milk.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm currently running through a bag of Waitrose Kenia AA (don't ask...), it's your typical charcoal roast, although fairly fresh (if you believe the date) so I thought I may as well refract the brew to see what is left in those burnt beans. As it turns out, quite a lot:










EY: 25.61%, TDS: 8.2%, this was more than 3:1 ratio, flowed fairly normal, so not even a choker. Kind of shocked how high it went considered how dark a roast this is.

Anyone else had similar results with uber dark roasts?

No, it did not taste good :/

T.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You have probably got another 4% to go, if not more, to get it all out. 

Kenyan (high solubility), v dark roast (high solubility) sounds like a great recipe for over-extracted coffee, but why do it if it doesn't taste good?

What does this coffee taste like around 21-22%?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Just playing around with 3:1 ratios and different coffees, that's all. It was a standard shot though, nothing super slow or extra fine, so I was surprised how high the EY got. Then I started thinking that perhaps this is the reason why some people prefer darker roasts, it seems much easier to get into your normal 21-22% EY range, even if you make mistakes in the prep / grind. Similar shot with a light roast and prep mistakes would most likely end up in the 18% ish range and most likely taste not pleasant.

T.


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