# Help brewing with V60?



## Mattcolnago

Hi Guys,

I know its been asked before but im finding it hard to get a decent brew out of my V60. What im currently doing is wetting the filter, adding 15g of ground coffee (using same grind as espresso) then adding some hot water, leaving for 30secs, then keep topping up till my cups full.

Can someone run through what i need to do, dosing, timings, grind etc.

Thanks

Matt


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## Kyle548

What size are you using?

Unless you use the 01, you might find it hard to get a good cup out of 15g.

At least, I find my 01 produces a better single cup than the 02 I have.


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## garydyke1

When you say a 'decent' brew whats missing / wrong with what youre getting now?

15g should be tasty with about 250g water through it, in approx 2-3 mins. Espresso sounds a little on the fine side, try going a little coarser on it.

Are you blooming / prewetting the grinds before starting your subsequent pours?


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## rmcgandara

I subscribe what garydyke1 is saying.

your coffee needs to be courser.

couple of vids that ilustrate more or less the methods that I use. Mainly I follow the method that yielded Matt Perger with the brewers cup title


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## Kyle548

The grind with the V60 is surprisingly coarse.

I do coaser that I use with my FP.


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## MWJB

I'd go a bit higher on the brew ratio at espresso fine, maybe 210-220g of brew water to your 15g...it'll be a strong cup. Don't pulse pour unless you are going to grind much coarser, get all the water in once the bloom is over. Once reasonably full, keep any additional water you need to add in little spirals around the middle.

I'd use the larger 02 V60 for a 15g dose.

When finished, give the cup a really good stir, top to bottom, really break up any layers when you taste it (I prefer to brew into a carafe for easier stirring & swirling)...if after a few sips, it's still pithy & sour, add a bit more water in the centre of the V60...if it's smokey, drying & bitter, reduce the water you add next time round.

Don't aim for a specific volume out, like a mugful, aim to get the flavour sweet & juicy....If it's too strong, but the flavour is right, top up with water from the kettle.

Grinding coarser will give you more room to vary the pour, is it that you don't want to lose an espresso grind?


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## Mattcolnago

I'm using the 01, well I'm using Hasbean Indian Peaberry and when I've had it in my local it fruity and acidic, when I've made it it tasted very filter coffee like (like I get at work!)

Ill try grinding more coarse.


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## Mattcolnago

MWJB, my espresso is dialed in nicely on my grinder so didn't really want to move it, but can always mark it.


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## garydyke1

The grind profile produced by an espresso grinder isnt optimal for brewed/filter coffee due to the presence of fines (bi-modal particle distribution - some bigger bits , some smaller) that said you should be still be able to get a decent tasty brew.


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## MWJB

garydyke1 said:


> The grind profile produced by an espresso grinder isnt optimal for brewed/filter coffee due to the presence of fines (bi-modal particle distribution - some bigger bits , some smaller) that said you should be still be able to get a decent tasty brew.


+1...though it's indeed more of an issue for drip/pourover, less critical for steeped as the grind doesn't control extraction rate via flow through the bed.


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## garydyke1

It always the fines fault, regardless of method, never our skills.


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## jeebsy

Haven't tried many different methods with the V60 but Matt Perger's works pretty well.


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## Mattcolnago

Coarsed up my grind, followed Matt Perger's video, wow what a difference!!

Cheers Chaps!!


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## kikapu

I have recently dug my V60 02 out the cupboard having never used it.

Have started with the methods on the previous page and now trying to adapt the Matt Perger method for 400ml (2 cups)

So at the moment its something like this

1. 24g of coffee

2 start timer add 50g water just off boil (97degC?!!) agitate it then leave

3. At 30 seconds add 50g water

4. at 1 minute add remaining water 300g

5. Target brew time about 2:30 mins

Still very much work in progress

Comments/suggestion's please!!? At step three wondering if better to add more water!??

Don't have a pouring kettle yet, will I notice a difference if I get one?

Lastly I always use britta filtered water but today used Volvic as had some laying around and MrsKikapu and said todays coffee was 'strong' that's despite the fact hers is with milk and I used less ground coffee than the previous day!! I know mineral water affects extraction rate but does it speed it up or slow it (I assume it depends on the mineral water)?


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## The Systemic Kid

For 350ml in, suggest a dose round 21grms to give a TDS (total dissolved solids) of 1.35%. This gives an extraction on 20% according to VST Extractmojo software. Brew time is OK - you can go a bit longer if needed. Main thing, is what does it taste like? You're trying to balance body (mouthfeel) against flavour clarity. Too much body and you overpower the delicate flavours in the brew. No body and the brew tastes flat.

To get a real feel of the relationship between body and flavour clarity, try this. Sieve your dose after grinding through a flour sieve to remove the fines but keep the final dose into your filter at 21grms. Make the pour over as per your usual method and see what you think. You will probably have a brew that has less body but with the flavour clarity coming through much more (don't drink it hot though as you won't get the delicate aromas and flavours coming through at their best). Then try a brew made as normal, i.e. with the fines in the dose. This should have more body evident. From here, you can play around to get the outcome you prefer most. In the end, it's what you prefer that's right.


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## garydyke1

Im using 8g / 175g water in my v60-01. Getting some super clarity and aroma in the cup, perhaps a little thin on mouthfeel.

You're best off putting too much water through the coffee bed than not enough IMO


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## kikapu

Thanks to you both.

Some food for thought there! I think I will keep grind the same and increase water to 440g total so reducing the ratio so hopefully mrskikapu wont think it as 'strong'! And will increase the clarity. At the moment v60 is my before work coffee so will save the sieving for when I have more time!

Have you found better to add the water in stages or after the bloom just chuck in the rest?

Hopefully be getting a better grinder for brewed sometime soon which will help bring out the flavours


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## garydyke1

Have a crack at the Matt Perger technique


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## The Systemic Kid

Agree, try the Matt Perger technique - find it gives the best extractions.


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## kikapu

Ok will continue with that but his technique was for 200g water. Any idea on proportions for the higher volume? so 440 total water. 50g start, 50g at 30 seconds and 340g at 1 minute sound reasonable?


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## garydyke1

Id go 100; 100; 240.

Its unlikely your grind quality will be equal to Pergers (EK43) so I wouldnt worry about time. Have a play and have fun with it!


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## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> Id go 100; 100; 240.
> 
> Its unlikely your grind quality will be equal to Pergers (EK43) so I wouldnt worry about time. Have a play and have fun with it!


You dissing the dualit burr grinder!!


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## garydyke1

Not at all. Pretty much all our grinders suck in comparision


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## kikapu

garydyke1 said:


> Not at all. Pretty much all our grinders suck in comparision


Well when I upgrade will do you a deal on it as thank you for your help!









Really looking forward to trying my updated method/volume (sort of sad I guess!) but really enjoyed the few brews I have had from the v60 it due to the clean taste quickness of brew


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## MWJB

kikapu said:


> Have you found better to add the water in stages or after the bloom just chuck in the rest?


Depends on how even & fine your grind is. If you are very fine/have a lot of powder, maybe better to add in one go, following a prewet with ~2g water per 1g of coffee. If you sieve, like Systemic Kid suggests, or get a more even grind then the Perger method can work really well.

Don't go mad varying the brew ratios, stick to a ratio and just play with the pour style &/or grind.


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## kikapu

decided not to reduce the brew ratio just yet so I tried again this morning fined the grind one notch and didn't use volvic just brita filtered water (I know I know 2 things changed in one go!! will get some ashbeck to use from now on!).

kettle 1 min off the boil 24g coffee, 50g water, then [email protected] , 200g @ 1 minute total brew time about 2:50.

This certainly had much more mouthfeell (ie felt like it was drying out your mouth as you drunk it) and less subtle flavour some of this down to change in water I guess.

I am going to buy a pouring kettle (Mrs is gonna go nuts!







) as obviously doesn't help when your pour can vary so much by using normal kettle.

How do I reduce the mouth feel I assume I coarsen the grind?


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## 4085

Do you recommend using scales for this. by that I mean, set your V60 up and add your grind to check the weight, then zero and use weight as opposed to volume of water? I suppose the more you do it the easier it is to judge volume by eye along, but I suppose just starting out some parameters would be useful!


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## 4085

Do you recommend using scales for this. by that I mean, set your V60 up and add your grind to check the weight, then zero and use weight as opposed to volume of water? I suppose the more you do it the easier it is to judge volume by eye along, but I suppose just starting out some parameters would be useful!

Can anyone link me to any Matt Perger reading on this. I have seen a Youtube video that completely went against a lot of the stuff I had already read, but it was visual with no explanations!


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## kikapu

dfk41 said:


> Do you recommend using scales for this. by that I mean, set your V60 up and add your grind to check the weight, then zero and use weight as opposed to volume of water? I suppose the more you do it the easier it is to judge volume by eye along, but I suppose just starting out some parameters would be useful!
> 
> Can anyone link me to any Matt Perger reading on this. I have seen a Youtube video that completely went against a lot of the stuff I had already read, but it was visual with no explanations!







It has weights of water and time to add this is the best have seen its his official video.

It terms of weighing think its the same as espresso it will be the best way to get a consistently good cup. unless you only boil up water needed for brew then can do by eye but I boil up more to pre wet filter and pre heat etc.

But I am the last one I would take any advice from!!


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## The Systemic Kid

Pouring kettle certainly helps with better accuracy. More mouthfeel suggests more body but looking at your inputs on Extractmojo suggests you are brewing with too much coffee which will give you problems with body/flavour balance as well as getting a total dissolved solids percentage well over the 'ideal' 1.35% (towards around 1.5% which is on the strong side of the graph). To bring things down to a more balanced body/flavour feel, try reducing your dose to 21grms and keep everything else the same - grind, water volume, technique etc. See if this tones down the body/strength and accentuates flavour clarity. If this gets you in the right ball park, try grinding a little coarser and/or try removing all the fines from a dose to find out just what difference adding all the fines or removing them does to a final brew balance.


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> Do you recommend using scales for this. by that I mean, set your V60 up and add your grind to check the weight, then zero and use weight as opposed to volume of water? I suppose the more you do it the easier it is to judge volume by eye along, but I suppose just starting out some parameters would be useful!


Find it better to brew by volume out - that way you have one less variable to think about - how much water is retained by the grinds which will vary from bean to bean. For 350ml in - you will get around 310ml out. For 500ml out, it's around 543ml in - see how it gets messy.


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## kikapu

Thanks. Will reduce the dose down I had just doubled the dose from the MP routine.

Will report back.

This VST app seems really useful probably go a bit over my head plus on android think its almost double the Ipad price and don't think Mrskikapu would be too happy if I put the app on her Ipad!!









Keeping the sieving till the weekend


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## 4085

Patrick, a newbie question then, but if you are measuring output by volume rather than weight, how do you check your input volume if pouring from a kettle with more water than you need?


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> Patrick, a newbie question then, but if you are measuring output by volume rather than weight, how do you check your input volume if pouring from a kettle with more water than you need?


Operate on 1ml equalling 1grm. I fill my pouring kettle with around 600ml of water, zero the scales with V60 plus dose and start the pour. I brew 500ml output and use around 32-33grms of coffee.


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## 4085

So, Matt pergers video

12 g coffee

200 g water

97 degrees c

2.20 minutes total

1.40 tds

20.8% extraction

So, way out from your personal parameters!


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## The Systemic Kid

kikapu said:


> This VST app seems really useful probably go a bit over my head plus on android think its almost double the Ipad price and don't think Mrskikapu would be too happy if I put the app on her Ipad!!


You can get an iPhone app that's a lot cheaper and does exactly the same, i.e. give you figures but not the graph picture. But the software is designed really to used in conjunction with the VST refractometer.


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## kikapu

dfk41 said:


> So, Matt pergers video
> 
> 12 g coffee
> 
> 200 g water
> 
> 97 degrees c
> 
> 2.20 minutes total
> 
> 1.40 tds
> 
> 20.8% extraction
> 
> So, way out from your personal parameters!


ratio to coffee and water input is the same


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> So, Matt pergers video
> 
> 12 g coffee
> 
> 200 g water
> 
> 97 degrees c
> 
> 2.20 minutes total
> 
> 1.40 tds
> 
> 20.8% extraction
> 
> So, way out from your personal parameters!


All things are subjective, David. SCAA figures were based on an American tasting sample preferring a TDS in the range of 1.15%-1.35% (18%-22% extraction). So, 1.35% is bang in the middle giving 20% extraction. Incidentally, the Norwegian Coffee Association recommends the range 1.35%-1.55%. IMO, 1.35%/20% extraction is a good place to start and then fine tune for personal preference in respect of body (mouth feel) and flavour clarity. Having grown up with over-extracted cafetiere coffee, I had to 'educate' my taste buds off too much mouth feel in order to appreciate the flavour clarity of various bean offerings. That said, if the brew is really lacking in body, IMO, it spoils the enjoyment no matter what the flavour clarity might be.

Incidentally, punching MP's figures into Extractmojo, show his extraction puts it in the strong/bitter part of the graph but graphs and outputs are only a guide, it's all about how it tastes - for some this would be a tad over-developed. Clearly not for MP.


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## garydyke1

IMO best to go by weight. Recipe is a recipe no matter espresso or brewed


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## Kyle548

I do 14g >> 200ml and try to get as close to 2m as possible inc about 30s bloom and an extra of 20g water for the bloom (scales zeroed).


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## 4085

It all sounds fun and I cannot wait for all my bits and pieces to turn up. I am looking forward to trying some lighter coffees again as my taste using the lever is getting darker and darker!


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> Patrick, a newbie question then, but if you are measuring output by volume rather than weight, how do you check your input volume if pouring from a kettle with more water than you need?


Use a brew stand on scales, brew into a cup/carafe on a second set of scales. Add desired water, check against output. Then fine tune the output by pulsing a little more water through the cone.


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## garydyke1

Thats smug. I have enough scales to do the same


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## MWJB

The Systemic Kid said:


> All things are subjective, David. SCAA figures were based on an American tasting sample preferring a TDS in the range of 1.15%-1.35% (18%-22% extraction). So, 1.35% is bang in the middle giving 20% extraction. Incidentally, the Norwegian Coffee Association recommends the range 1.35%-1.55%. IMO, 1.35%/20% extraction is a good place to start and then fine tune for personal preference in respect of body (mouth feel) and flavour clarity. Having grown up with over-extracted cafetiere coffee, I had to 'educate' my taste buds off too much mouth feel in order to appreciate the flavour clarity of various bean offerings. That said, if the brew is really lacking in body, IMO, it spoils the enjoyment no matter what the flavour clarity might be.
> 
> Incidentally, punching MP's figures into Extractmojo, show his extraction puts it in the strong/bitter part of the graph but graphs and outputs are only a guide, it's all about how it tastes - for some this would be a tad over-developed. Clearly not for MP.


The SCAA chart was based on the CBI/CBC chart, the "box" had already been defined by sensory research (SCAA also reinforced this later), the chart was developed to identify a golden ratio (~56g/l) by which you would be most likely to achieve a brew between 1.15-1.35/18-20% (more the line transecting the box, than the box itself?).

Perger's method (based on Rao's philosophy) may allow you to push towards the upper range of ideal yield because the extraction is very even (in theory, if done right). A fill & drain pourover, or wildly poor grind distribution (which in turn might push you towards a fill & drain) may get bitter/show defects at a lower yield. I suspect (just a theory) that the NCA chart is more drip-centric (SCAE says it's chart specifically is), the CBI/CBC/SCAA chart wasn't conceived with any one methodology in mind.


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## MWJB

garydyke1 said:


> Thats smug. I have enough scales to do the same


More OCD than smug ;-) It takes a lot of 'scale dabbing' to ensure they don't time out...I fear I am now a compulsive dabber! ;-)

But as with espresso, your drip yield is relative to what lands in the cup, more than the brew water you pour in the cone (different brewers & grind quality can skew the weight of the output...one reason I like using the Aeropress as a 'plunger assisted pourover' - you can fine tune the output to 1g).


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## Kyle548

MWJB said:


> More OCD than smug ;-) It takes a lot of 'scale dabbing' to ensure they don't time out...I fear I am now a compulsive dabber! ;-)
> 
> But as with espresso, your drip yield is relative to what lands in the cup, more than the brew water you pour in the cone (different brewers & grind quality can skew the weight of the output...one reason I like using the Aeropress as a 'plunger assisted pourover' - you can fine tune the output to 1g).


You seem too OCD with your weighing (not a bad thing!) for this, but I just tare after the bloom then take anything that lands in the cup during the pour as read.

Usually my bloom spills into the cup before I pour, so it's a close enough approximation for me.


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## MWJB

Too OCD? Is there such a thing? 

Your percolation brew (espresso, drip) tastes the way it does largely because of the amount of dissolved coffee solids that end up in the cup, the ideal box described above is 4% wide, yet there can be quite a shift in flavour across that 4%. Plunge Assisted Aeropress Drip, or "PAAD" from here on ;-), I have found I like it between 20%-22%, much more than 18-20%. In this example, assuming I am hitting a ball park TDS, just 3-4grams of beverage is enough to throw me off. In espresso just +/-1.5-2g of beverage difference (at common doses & ratios) is enough to use up all your leeway, assuming consistency in prep/execution & a 20% hard limit grinder (most espresso grinders).

If you want to weigh once, to within a few grams, steep your coffee, don't drip it.

I drink coffee because it tastes great, I make it carefully because I want to taste the coffee at a representative state, rather than taste it based on brewer/brewing defects. Ever had a bean you couldn't get on with? Well, It wasn't the bean ;-)


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## MWJB

Kyle548 said:


> You seem too OCD with your weighing (not a bad thing!) for this, but I just tare after the bloom then take anything that lands in the cup during the pour as read.
> 
> Usually my bloom spills into the cup before I pour, so it's a close enough approximation for me.


There is a simpler, seat of the pants way to brew pourover - use a brew stand & initially aim high on the brew ratio, then pulse small amounts through at the end, stirring thoroughly & tasting what's in the cup in between pulses.

Pour over brew ratios (water added) are a guide, the result (in the cup) is implied, but that's what counts.


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## Kyle548

I'm not sure numbers can describe a cup.

They are ideal, sure, but they don't exactly tell the story of what you are going to get when you drink.

I think I'm pretty good at pourover, but that comes from trying lots of bad cups and eventually, more and more good ones.

I'm not really sure such an experience can be quantified in numbers, although the result probably can be.

Basically, I'm all for brew numbers as a guide and they are pretty useful to explain the rules of the universe, but we are just 4 dimensional beings in a universe that maths can describe in more than 7. Maybe someone will describe a cup of SO Yirgacheffe in a V60 in terms of quantum mechanics someday.

TLR

In the end, it comes down to what we enjoy and brew numbers are only a guide.


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## MWJB

Kyle548 said:


> I'm not sure numbers can describe a cup.
> 
> In the end, it comes down to what we enjoy and brew numbers are only a guide.


Try it & report back.  The numbers are taste. People typically enjoy nominally extracted coffee. They vary, sure (with brewer & protocol), but that Yirgacheffe will taste like it's supposed to/to your preference over a relatively small range (for that brewer/protocol). Establishing the numbers & working from there considerably reduces the number of bad cups you have to endure.

It's hard to get your head round until you try it, but all the brewing methods & advice we are used to seeing, from the 1950's until today, is based on those numbers.


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## Kyle548

MWJB said:


> Try it & report back.  The numbers are taste. People typically enjoy nominally extracted coffee. They vary, sure (with brewer & protocol), but that Yirgacheffe will taste like it's supposed to/to your preference over a relatively small range (for that brewer/protocol). Establishing the numbers & working from there considerably reduces the number of bad cups you have to endure.
> 
> It's hard to get your head round until you try it, but all the brewing methods & advice we are used to seeing, from the 1950's until today, is based on those numbers.


Well..... If you want to lend me a refractometer then........


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## The Systemic Kid

Kyle548 said:


> Well..... If you want to lend me a refractometer then........


Been musing whilst kneading some bread (do that a lot - helps pass the time) and wondered how you could get some of your pour over analysed to give you a numbers reference point. If you want, you could send a small sample through the post - I'd be happy to analyse it for you and am sure Mark would too. Don't see any problems in the sample deteriorating during transit and messing up the analysis - wonder if Mark has any thoughts on this.


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## Kyle548

CSI: Drip Coffee Analysis.


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## MWJB

There may be someone in your vicinity who'll let you have a go on one, or measure a sample of your coffee you send them. You'll need to weigh the beverage for a V60.


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## Kyle548

I just checked, the VST ones are like £500......?


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## The Systemic Kid

Kyle548 said:


> I just checked, the VST ones are like £500......?


Doesn't include the software either but they do bung in half a dozen pipettes and two or three surgical swabs


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## Kyle548

The Systemic Kid said:


> Doesn't include the software either but they do bung in half a dozen pipettes and two or three surgical swabs


I guess that's an argument for flying the ol' skull and cross bones until you get over the shock of £500 as anything else....


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## MWJB

VST are the only company who make a coffee refractometer. It's precision tool, you need the software too. Industry dehydration ovens are thousands.

Start with the software app, taste & 2 sets of scales? You could try a TDS meter, but these aren't as accurate, or consistent as the VST (won't comply with the software)...may give you some idea of a preferred range for a given protocol, but you'll need to average out the readings over multiple brews, it's not really capable of brew by brew analysis.


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## Kyle548

Just to make you all jealous. Here's my V60 set up.


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## kikapu

Looks good to me!

Quick question any idea why brewstations are so expensive?!? Or am I looking in the wrong place.

I guess with your arrangement Kyle you only weigh output though!?


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## Neill

kikapu said:


> Looks good to me!
> 
> Quick question any idea why brewstations are so expensive?!? Or am I looking in the wrong place.
> 
> I guess with your arrangement Kyle you only weigh output though!?


You meant input?


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## Kyle548

I only weigh input.

Weighing final brew too is troublesome.....

I'm not sure why they cost so much, maybe just because it's a luxury?


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## kikapu

Ahhh yes input!!

They really are a luxury and probably rather spend the money on something else! Heck I still haven't ordered my pouring kettle!!


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## MWJB

The Systemic Kid said:


> Been musing whilst kneading some bread (do that a lot - helps pass the time) and wondered how you could get some of your pour over analysed to give you a numbers reference point. If you want, you could send a small sample through the post - I'd be happy to analyse it for you and am sure Mark would too. Don't see any problems in the sample deteriorating during transit and messing up the analysis - wonder if Mark has any thoughts on this.


Sure you can post a sample, I did shoot Kyle a PM with the offer, though I don't really relish the prospect of leaking jiffy bags dropping through the letter box, hence doing on the QT ;-)

You need to know the brew method, dose weight to 0.1g, brew water & beverage weight to the gram. Stir the beverage well, and stick a few (~10ml?) ml in a leak proof, shatter proof container. Samples that are metal fltered, Aeropress and brews with a very fine grind & paper filtered will need filtering with a syringe filter before testing. David Walsh (assisted by Vince Fedele amongst others) did a study based on this idea.


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## MWJB

Kyle548 said:


> I only weigh input.
> 
> Weighing final brew too is troublesome.....
> 
> I'm not sure why they cost so much, maybe just because it's a luxury?


You can pre weigh your cup/carafe & brew normally, then subtract cup weight from cup & beverage. Weigh the actual cup you use, not just one of a set, as they vary from one to another.


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## Kyle548

MWJB said:


> You can pre weigh your cup/carafe & brew normally, then subtract cup weight from cup & beverage. Weigh the actual cup you use, not just one of a set, as they vary from one to another.


Yep, I thought of this, but I like the simplicity of just weighing input and I suppose it's no hassle to just split the difference of two weighings.

With my method, I find that as long as the grind is right, I get a good cup, so I have never felt the need for further diagnostics.


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## kikapu

This morning efforts were improved.

First attempt. 21g coffee. 50g at 0, 100g at 30 seconds 250 @ 1min total brew time 3 mins.

Much improved mouth feel but tasted a tad over extracted.

Second attempt same as above but coarsed the grind one notch. Total brew time 2:45.

Improved again not much sweetness or clarity though so think I should coarsen the grind again to get extraction time under 2:30!!?

Then once I am happy will start using ashbeck water and mess everything up!!


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## Kyle548

I prefer tight and light. (I guess how I like my women?)

I do 14g for 200g of water and grind it quite fine.



kikapu said:


> This morning efforts were improved.
> 
> First attempt. 21g coffee. 50g at 0, 100g at 30 seconds 250 @ 1min total brew time 3 mins.
> 
> Much improved mouth feel but tasted a tad over extracted.
> 
> Second attempt same as above but coarsed the grind one notch. Total brew time 2:45.
> 
> Improved again not much sweetness or clarity though so think I should coarsen the grind again to get extraction time under 2:30!!?
> 
> Then once I am happy will start using ashbeck water and mess everything up!!


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## kikapu

Kyle548 said:


> I prefer tight and light. (I guess how I like my women?)
> 
> I do 14g for 200g of water and grind it quite fine.


I won't comment on the first bit!!

What's your brew time like that? Do you add it all in after the bloom?


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## Kyle548

kikapu said:


> I won't comment on the first bit!!
> 
> What's your brew time like that? Do you add it all in after the bloom?


Usually around 2 mins.

I bloom with 2x the weight of the beans for 30 seconds, then tare my scales.

So bloom is included in the ~around~ 2 mins.

I pulse it to make sure the water never goes too far over the grounds, but during the bloom I make sure to spread the grounds out enough that I can add about 50g of water at a time.


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## The Systemic Kid

kikapu said:


> This morning efforts were improved.
> 
> First attempt. 21g coffee. 50g at 0, 100g at 30 seconds 250 @ 1min total brew time 3 mins.
> 
> Much improved mouth feel but tasted a tad over extracted.
> 
> Second attempt same as above but coarsed the grind one notch. Total brew time 2:45.
> 
> Improved again not much sweetness or clarity though so think I should coarsen the grind again to get extraction time under 2:30!!?
> 
> Then once I am happy will start using ashbeck water and mess everything up!!


Try sieving out the fines but keeping the dose at 21grms and brew volume the same - it will lean the brew to flavour clarity and give you a good idea of the clarity/mouth feel balance. Did this this morning with some Ethiopian and got a blast of strawberry on the nose and in the cup - completely absent yesterday when the extraction percentage was higher by a mere 0.7%. You wouldn't think such a small difference can make such a difference.


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## kikapu

Just to confirm bin what goes through the sieve!??


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## Kyle548

kikapu said:


> Just to confirm bin what goes through the sieve!??


For brewed coffee its thought that uni-modal grinds produced the best cup.

This means that all grind particles must be the same size. Espresso grinders are very bad at this, as espresso works best with fine grind particles mixed with bigger ones - these slow the flow of water though the basket among other things.

Sieving the grounds, your aiming to remove all those fines and be left with, hopefully, many uniform grounds.

Basically, the small particles over-extract a lot quicker than the big ones and in pourover, over-extraction is very easy to achieve anyway, so it's limiting your damages really.


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## The Systemic Kid

kikapu said:


> Just to confirm bin what goes through the sieve!??


The fines - dust like particles - inevitable consequence of grinding. The better the grinder and quality of grind, the lower the proportion of fines produced. For amusement, measured the amount produced for this morning's brew. Wanted 33grms dose so bunged 36grms in the grinder - after sieving, ended up with almost 3grms of fines which I didn't use in the dose - produced a very slightly lower extraction percentage but the aroma and taste was bang on the tasting notes.


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## kikapu

I don't believe it the sieves we have will almost let whole beans through!! and no it wasn't a colander







I need to buy a sieve for my coffee







think people are going to talk about me!


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## Kyle548

Just a bit more eye candy.


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## kikapu

Off to sainsbury s in a bit will look out for a sieve do they have mesh size info on them!!?? (Sieve novice! !) If so what size otherwise I guess the finest mesh they have! ?


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## kikapu

I failed to get a sieve as they didn't have anything fine enough!!

Also think I have an issue with my Dualit grinder (I know its so amazing how could this be so!!??







) but I have been moving the grind setting coarser (by twisting the hopper) over the weekend to try and bring brew time down (got to do something till I get a sieve!!) and am at present about almost 2cm past the last grind setting indicators and my brew time have been staying right around the 2'30ish mark no quicker so I have come to the conclusion I am now just unscrewing the hopper and not having any real effect on the grind size! Will give it another go tomorrow but think I need to wait till my Hausgrind arrives and sure this will take my brewed coffee up a level or two!!??

Anyway if the above is true I guess the best I could do would be get a sieve sharpish or next best thing play with the brew temp ie leave till off the boil a bit longer ie 3mins? as still getting muted flavours although loving mouthfeel and doesn't taste particularly over extracted and the best indicator is Mrskikapu isn't complaining about it!


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## MWJB

Try marine & tropical fish suppliers for a 250um mesh?


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## The Systemic Kid

kikapu said:


> I failed to get a sieve


This is what I am using.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kitchen-Craft-Stainless-Steel-Strainer/dp/B000YJB8TE/ref=sr_1_3/277-4555138-8973317?ie=UTF8&qid=1391506040&sr=8-3&keywords=kitchen+craft+flour+sifter

I'll take some pics with a macro lens later and upload to show the degree of grind and what was removed.

Just used 33grms of sieved grinds of HB Ethiopian. Coffee came out oozing strawberry (weird I know) and blueberry muffin. Citrus flavours seem to be easily knocked out by introducing too much body. Find extraction of around 18% spot on. With beans that are more malty and chocolate flavour, a bit more body, i.e. extraction up to 20% is OK but it varies from bean to bean and personal preference.


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## kikapu

The Systemic Kid said:


> This is what I am using.
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kitchen-Craft-Stainless-Steel-Strainer/dp/B000YJB8TE/ref=sr_1_3/277-4555138-8973317?ie=UTF8&qid=1391506040&sr=8-3&keywords=kitchen+craft+flour+sifter
> 
> I'll take some pics with a macro lens later and upload to show the degree of grind and what was removed.
> 
> Just used 33grms of sieved grinds of HB Ethiopian. Coffee came out oozing strawberry (weird I know) and blueberry muffin. Citrus flavours seem to be easily knocked out by introducing too much body. Find extraction of around 18% spot on. With beans that are more malty and chocolate flavour, a bit more body, i.e. extraction up to 20% is OK but it varies from bean to bean and personal preference.


Thanks to you both ordered the sieve as least means will have it before weekend as not sure I will be able to go anywhere to get anything before then anyway.


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## The Systemic Kid

Here are a couple of pictures showing level of grind I use for Chemex and the fines' dust removed through a kitchen sieve. One picture has a centimetre tape at bottom for scale reference - the other a twenty pence piece. Using a Vario fitted with steel burrs, I need to grind about 38-39grms to get 33grms dose - the rest is fines' dust. If the grind is not sieved, it will produce an extraction (for 33grm dose and 500ml out) of around 21% choking flavour clarity with too much body. Removing the fines produces an extraction level of 18%-19% which enhances flavour clarity at the expense of body IMO.


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## garydyke1

By removing the fines , can you not grind finer still and hit 19.5-20% ? ie maintain the body


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


> By removing the fines , can you not grind finer still and hit 19.5-20% ? ie maintain the body


Quite probably. But playing around to enhance flavour clarity, found just over 18% with HB Ethiopian Kebel Kercha produced masses of flavour clarity and aroma, so much so, it filled the whole house with sweet strawberry aroma. If I want more body, I add a proportion of the sieved fines to the dose used.


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## garydyke1

You lot and your posh gizmos ; )


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## The Systemic Kid

garydyke1 said:


> You lot and your posh gizmos ; )


Got an anorak too


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## beebah

What kind of sieve are you using?


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## The Systemic Kid

beebah said:


> What kind of sieve are you using?


Simple kitchen sieve like this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kitchen-Craft-Stainless-Steel-Strainer/dp/B000YJB8TE/ref=sr_1_3/277-4555138-8973317?ie=UTF8&qid=1391506040&sr=8-3&keywords=kitchen+craft+flour+sifter

If you look at the pictures of the grind and fines above, you'll see what it does. Not looking at particle grade sieving (expensive) here. Aim is to remove as much of the fines' dust produced by my grinder to enable a much more even extraction. Allows me to tweak my Chemex/V60 brews towards more flavour clarity for particular useful for beans which have more citrus notes.


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## kikapu

The Systemic Kid said:


> Simple kitchen sieve like this
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Kitchen-Craft-Stainless-Steel-Strainer/dp/B000YJB8TE/ref=sr_1_3/277-4555138-8973317?ie=UTF8&qid=1391506040&sr=8-3&keywords=kitchen+craft+flour+sifter
> 
> If you look at the pictures of the grind and fines above, you'll see what it does. Not looking at particle grade sieving (expensive) here. Aim is to remove as much of the fines' dust produced by my grinder to enable a much more even extraction. Allows me to tweak my Chemex/V60 brews towards more flavour clarity for particular useful for beans which have more citrus notes.


Sieve arrived holes bigger than I thought approx 1.5mm square holes sound right?


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## The Systemic Kid

kikapu said:


> Sieve arrived holes bigger than I thought approx 1.5mm square holes sound right?


Here's a pic with a twenty pence piece for scale reference. The sieve should be able to remove the fines dust - which has a texture like flour - not coarse in any way.

View attachment 5446


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## kikapu

Oooohhh as I thought its too big







whole grind would go through this!


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## The Systemic Kid

Take it back and swap it for a flour sieve.


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## kikapu

Made my best tasting v60 so far this morning.

20g coffee Used water 1min off the boil and added 50g, [email protected] and [email protected] total brew time 2.30. used ashbeck water and kept the kettle at around boiling while brewing to get slurry temp that bit higher. Really nice taste still a bit muted but was really nice.

Tried again same as above except water off the boil at 1min and just let kettle water cool rather than keep temp up. Tasted ok but nothing like the first seemed to have more mouth feel/body somehow!


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## froggystyle

I use the 2 cup and also stick in 15g for about 250ml, but as stated above, i use a course grind..


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## kikapu

Looking for some advice. I have recently bought the bonavita variable temp pouring kettle and hausgrind. Since using the hausgrind my v60 has been much better. However since I started using the bonavita its got much worse!

Seems like I am over extracting the fines most of the time.

Using 24g of coffee 400g of water using matt ps method. Getting the water through always between 2.1mins to 3mins max.

Have tried different bloom volumes of water between 60g to 100g and the higher volume water at bloom seems to ruin clarity.

So was thinking temp was the issue!!? Shall I bring it down to say 96 or 95 rather than play with grind settings

Was also wondering if I am totally wrong and under extracting really badly as the pour over kettle isnt agitating the grinds as much as normal kettle pour??

If I have time I will sieve grinds and see but its such a faff


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## Neill

kikapu said:


> Looking for some advice. I have recently bought the bonavita variable temp pouring kettle and hausgrind. Since using the hausgrind my v60 has been much better. However since I started using the bonavita its got much worse!
> 
> Seems like I am over extracting the fines most of the time.
> 
> Using 24g of coffee 400g of water using matt ps method. Getting the water through always between 2.1mins to 3mins max.
> 
> Have tried different bloom volumes of water between 60g to 100g and the higher volume water at bloom seems to ruin clarity.
> 
> So was thinking temp was the issue!!? Shall I bring it down to say 96 or 95 rather than play with grind settings
> 
> Was also wondering if I am totally wrong and under extracting really badly as the pour over kettle isnt agitating the grinds as much as normal kettle pour??
> 
> If I have time I will sieve grinds and see but its such a faff


Why so you think you are under/over extracting, is it the taste?


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## Neill

And I think Matt pergers technique may need some tweaking for larger amounts of coffee. His vid shows him using 12g of coffee and 200 of water.


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## kikapu

Yeah very little clarity other than what I would call a strong coffee taste


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## Neill

What's your hausgrind set at?


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## kikapu

1 full turn from zero plus 6. So 1.6 but running through in around 2.30 so don't think thats an issue


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## froggystyle

What temp is the kettle set to at present and are you pouring as soon as it hits this temp?


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## kikapu

froggystyle said:


> What temp is the kettle set to at present and are you pouring as soon as it hits this temp?


Set at 97 and I hold at this temp


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## froggystyle

Take it down to 95 then... maybe take it down to 92/93 and work your way up to 95.

How accurate do they say these kettles are?


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## Neill

I don't have a bonivita kettle but I measure my water temp before pouring. I usually use somewhere between 86 and 90 deg and am happy with the results.


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## kikapu

Tried it at 93 and it tasted different but no real clarity of flavour. brew time 2.30 Hhhmmm

Neill 86-90 seems very low??!


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## kikapu

Found the main issue! Change in water as ran out of ashbeck used volvic and think was extracting quicker! Used ashbeck this morning kept everything the same tasted much nicer still not great but much better


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## The Systemic Kid

Been using Ashbeck for pour over for a few months - it's very consistent - one less variable to worry about - fairly cheap too at around £1.20 for five litres.


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## kikapu

Did three brews this morning back to back.

Same water temp (95c) same grind setting just changed bloom water.

50g bloom (24g coffee) no agitation

50g bloom agitated

100g bloom agitated

The last two were the best of the three with the 100g bloom water easily the best.

Brew time just over 2mins for each.

So am going to keep the bloom water yhe same and mess with temp and grind settings


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## The Systemic Kid

Very good idea - tweaking variables one at a time.


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## kikapu

The more I do the less I know!!

recently been trying some different methods with 92-93deg water with extraction nearer 3mins and getting some really nice coffee and had come to the conculsion that nearer 3mins might be better for the larger amounts of coffee 600g water.

Have started using some Rave Suarez and havent changed my grind setting but my extraction times were much reduced and was under extracted. So decided to play about with brew methods.

The last one before I left for work had all the 36g coffee, 600g water, 80g @bloom, 250g at about 35sec remainder at about a minute. drained through in about 1:50 water temp 95deg and even said to Mrskikapu its not gonna be good! But left in decanter for 5 mins then started to drink on the way to work and I was amazed probably the best v60 I have done in a month or more!!

I think I have really underestimated how much the agitation caused by the pour speeds effect the brew, when I have been going for longer times I have been adding more slowly less agitation less extraction! Think I will stick with this ratio and method and see if I can repeat the brew time with my pours and they change grind to bring up brew time and see what that does!!!


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