# Volume vs Brew Ratio & weight



## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I've always used brew ratios and weighing coffee in and coffee out to know when to stop my shot. I tend to go for about 18-19.5g of coffee in the PF and I aim for anything between a ristretto 20g, or espresso 32-40g out into the cup depending on the type of coffee and what I feel like at the time.

Today for the first time I was using my Rattleware marked 3oz jug to pour the shot into. I still weighed the shot and to my surprise, when I hit my desired weight which was 32g, I only had 1oz of liquid (granted there was a healthy crema taking it up to about 1.75 oz).

What are others experiences of use brew ratios and final volume?

If I was to go for 2oz I think my final shot would weigh somewhere in the region of 60-70g


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

What did the 1oz shot taste like?

I'd say your crema contributes negligible weight. I have found volume can be deceiving stopping the shot early due to reaching the line on my calibrated shot glass only to come back moments later to see all that crema has died down and the shot is now under the line.

Go for weight


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

My shots taste great 90% of the time in my opinion (and who else's matters at the end of the day







)

I was ignoring the crema really. It just surprised me that it was so under the 2oz mark. Does that mean the people who are using only volume to judge their shots are massively drawing out their espresso's beyond Lungo's?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

When you measure by volume you should include the crema in the volume. This is one of the reasons that measuring by weight is more reliable - crema is inconsistent and causes massive volume fluctuations with the age of coffee where as weight is relatively independent of the amount of crema and so does not change with the freshness of the beans.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I tend to pull 1oz shots at home, with around 18g in and 27-32g out. I love the thick, sweet oily quality it produces. 2oz shots are generally too thin for me. Maybe that is something I need to work on, but I'm comfortable with the short shots. They also cut through milk well.

(Jim Schulman might tell me to use my 15g basket more... maybe I will one day!)


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

jimbow said:


> When you measure by volume you should include the crema in the volume. This is one of the reasons that measuring by volume is more reliable - crema is inconsistent and changes massively with the age of coffee where as weight is relatively independent of the amount of crema and so does not change with the freshness of the beans.


Did you get this the right way around? You said, "When you measure by volume you *should *include the crema in the volume" I would have thought for the very reason you said that you shouldn't include crema in the volume. If you do then with fresh beans you'd be getting 1oz of coffee because of lots of crema but then when they're stale and you're hardly getting any crema you'd get nearer the 2oz.



mikehag said:


> I tend to pull 1oz shots at home, with around 18g in and 27-32g out. I love the thick, sweet oily quality it produces. 2oz shots are generally too thin for me.


I agree, I think I'll stick with my measuring by weight and ending up with about 32g-40g and 1oz as I've not been overly impressed with these 2oz shots over the last couple of days.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

chimpsinties said:


> Did you get this the right way around? You said, "When you measure by volume you *should *include the crema in the volume" I would have thought for the very reason you said that you shouldn't include crema in the volume. If you do then with fresh beans you'd be getting 1oz of coffee because of lots of crema but then when they're stale and you're hardly getting any crema you'd get nearer the 2oz.


When measuring by volume you are indeed supposed to include the crema. As you pointed out, this means that measuring by volume gives inconsistent results, even with the same beans as they age. This is also why, in comparison, weight is so consistent as it is pretty much independent of crema quantity and the age of the beans.

[quote=chimpsinties;29462

I agree, I think I'll stick with my measuring by weight and ending up with about 32g-40g and 1oz as I've not been overly impressed with these 2oz shots over the last couple of days.

Perhaps even more interesting than the espresso's weight is the ratio of espresso weight to the weight of the grounds used to brew it. I find a ratio of 50-60% is ideal for espresso with most beans (i.e. the weight of grounds is 50-60% of the weight of the resulting liquid espresso beverage). This ratio can be applied consistently to different doses, perhaps of smaller or larger quantities e.g. 14g or 21g.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

jimbow said:


> Perhaps even more interesting than the espresso's weight is the ratio of espresso weight to the weight of the grounds used to brew it. I find a ratio of 50-60% is ideal for espresso with most beans (i.e. the weight of grounds is 50-60% of the weight of the resulting liquid espresso beverage). This ratio can be applied consistently to different doses, perhaps of smaller or larger quantities e.g. 14g or 21g.


Yeah, I know about brew ratios, that's why the title of the thread is called "Volume vs *Brew Ratio* & weight"


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Ah, good point!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Just out of interest do people have scales with shot glass on right under PF spouts while extracting?

With or without drip tray?

If I'm using 15g coffee for a normale I should be looking at around 30g liquid espresso in under 30 seconds?

What is the exact brew ratio of a normale? Is it bang on 50:50?

Thanks


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yes, when necessary I put small scales on the drip tray.

There's really no hard and fast definition but I use Andy Schecter's definitions. Google his name and brew ratios / ristretto and you should find the appropriate thread either on here or on Home Barista

As for brew time... between say 20-35 secs. Each different time yields a different taste, and you can adjust the grind so you get your target beverage weight in the time you want.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

This is the chart I work off










http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/shekk/extractionratios-2.png


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yep that's Schecter's work. The man has done wonders for good coffee


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I still find it interesting that some double espressos are only ~30g. For me, that's usually one volumetric ounce of liquid plus crema.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

So you think that's small?

Because I've always used weight rather than volume I think a 2oz double is massive. Haha!


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I know! I have been pouring 2oz shots incl. crema volume, but we're talking more like 50g liquid.

Some people seemingly pour even less, more like a ristretto.

I might be tempted to pour extra for a more sour coffee beamn (though I try to avoid them!).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

This subject sort of was touched on in the Jailbreak thread...going back to Chimpsinties' original comment:

"Today for the first time I was using my Rattleware marked 3oz jug to pour the shot into. I still weighed the shot and to my surprise, when I hit my desired weight which was 32g, I only had 1oz of liquid (granted there was a healthy crema taking it up to about 1.75 oz)."

...and Rodabod's above...

"I know! I have been pouring 2oz shots incl. crema volume, but we're talking more like 50g liquid."

...why would you include crema in the volume measurement? Surely the volumetric graduations are meant for water, which whilst it won't be spot on 1:1 for an extraction, it won't be 2:1 or anything like that?

My double shot yesterday was just under the 50ml line, about 4mm of crema when settled = 51g. Which is pretty much what I expected. Not that I think that volume is as good as measuring weight - it can't help but involve some guesstimation because of the crema created prior to settling, so weighing the shot is the more accurate method. Just curious about the big disparities people are finding between "g" & "ml".


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

IMHO Crema is generally included in the volumetric measure because espresso needs to be drank immediately, and if you wait for the crema to dissipate then th. espresso will have oxidised, volatile aromatics (flavours) will have escaped into the air, and bitterness will have set in.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Thanks Mike, I'm not talking about letting the crema dissipate completely, or even substantially, just "settling" in the time it takes for a shot to be at a comfortable drinking tempurature...or to be served, y'know 10's of seconds rather than whole minutes. The crema must have a substantially lower mass than the liquid so how can the graduations on the vessel account/correct for that...hence wondering whether it should/shouldn't form part of the assessed volume.

E.g. during yesterday's shot the liquid appeared to hit the 60ml mark, due to the amount of crema contained within it, say 10 seconds later it settled back to ~50ml/51g. Am I just assessing the volume later than other folk, who are quoting volume during the pour/at the point of killing the extraction? I might be sounding like a scratched record ...... but "2oz/29g" shots have me totally flummoxed...

It is, in reality a pretty moot point, I'm more thinking out loud here - I typically kill the shot at blonding then assess what I am left with. Do others kill at a specific weight/brew ratio, irrespective of blonding?


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I've always (until now) gone by volume, generally pulling 2oz (including crema) in 27s from 17g. I've always felt brew ratios are a little above where I was at, skill wise, but now ready to move on I gave it a go. It came as quite a surprise.

I aimed for pulling around 30g out from 17g in as a starting point. I stopped it at 28g and ended up with about 33g in the cup (must learn to stop shorter). It poured in about 19s which came as a big surprise, I don't know what the volume was, I'd guess possibly 1.25 - 1.5oz

The shot did have more flavour, I could actually taste some of the notes much clearer, very thin and quick dissipating crema (possibly due to it pouring way too quick). I generally drink milk based drinks, so am looking to get my shots to cut through the milk better.

This does seem like it will be a success, but I clearly have a lot more to learn!


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## JamesG (Mar 29, 2012)

Going back to scales under the PF: do your scales keep up with the shot weight or do they lag behind?


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

Mine probably lag by a split second or so, but not much, however when you press the button to stop the shot, obviously you still get a few grams come out, so you have to stop early.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I stop the shot 3g before intended end weight, to allow for the final few drips + lag


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Seeq - Is your cup/glass sufficiently small that you could slide it (& scales) off the drip tray at the required weight, then kill the extraction?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Thanks Mike, I'm not talking about letting the crema dissipate completely, or even substantially, just "settling" in the time it takes for a shot to be at a comfortable drinking tempurature...or to be served, y'know 10's of seconds rather than whole minutes. The crema must have a substantially lower mass than the liquid so how can the graduations on the vessel account/correct for that...hence wondering whether it should/shouldn't form part of the assessed volume.
> 
> E.g. during yesterday's shot the liquid appeared to hit the 60ml mark, due to the amount of crema contained within it, say 10 seconds later it settled back to ~50ml/51g. Am I just assessing the volume later than other folk, who are quoting volume during the pour/at the point of killing the extraction? I might be sounding like a scratched record ...... but "2oz/29g" shots have me totally flummoxed...
> 
> It is, in reality a pretty moot point, I'm more thinking out loud here - I typically kill the shot at blonding then assess what I am left with. Do others kill at a specific weight/brew ratio, irrespective of blonding?


Well I think another reason crema is included is that people who use volume as a reference for their shots are using the top of the crema as an estimate of volume so they know when to stop the shot. It isn't possible to use ex-crema volume for that.

Just to add a little info, the ukbc rules say a single shot is "30ml +/- 5ml including crema".


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> Seeq - Is your cup/glass sufficiently small that you could slide it (& scales) off the drip tray at the required weight, then kill the extraction?


The cup I use for espresso or a cappuccino mug do, my flat white mugs don't nor does m shot glass, so I'd have to remove the drip tray while pouring.... Or get a naked PF


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Well, inspired by this thread (& in turn the Jailbreak thread) I had crack at upping my regular brew ratio of 25-30% up to ...whatever I could get, frankly.

1st attempt, too fine a grind, clog up, drippy, no crema, extraction took an age, had a sip...salty. Sink job.

2nd attempt backed off the grind, extraction started a bit gloopy, but a reasonable flow if slowish, killed it at 32g out (16g dose). It didn't "blonde" per se, but the stream then was definitely watery, if darker than blond. My regular brew is, I feel, well balanced - base of chocolate, some nuttines, then a cherry like sweet flavour on top..sometimes a little acidic, just a shade. At 50% the cherry like fruitiness really came out, softer mouthfeel, lost the nuttiness, chocolate not so prominent...but it was damned nice. No acidity at all, which surprised me a little. Beans aren't as fresh as they could be, crema was "serviceable". My 32g, with crema, came up to just over the 30ml line on the Rattleware jug when settled...the 30ml line was about halfway up the crema, liquid only appeared to be ~28/29ml.

So, if I'm not far off the limits grind-wise...how do I get a higher brew ratio with these beans, just kill the shot at a smaller given weight out, irrespective of blonding/whether the extraction is done? Curious as to how I might get into Schecter's "Ristretto" territory...small shot/high doses yeilding less beverage weight than grinds! :-o

Or is there a practical limit with all but certain bean types. I wouldn't have tried this with the Malabar beans I have (22% typical BR)...but saying that, I didn't get results that I expected - yes, I know there are those reading this for whom this is hardly "news" ;-) - with the current beans...pity it's so late...tempted to pull a few more....


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Good question. Getting right up there in the >100% zone is not something I've ever deliberately tried to do, but I'm going to be spending more time working on my espresso soon, with the mojo, so I'll pass on anything I learn. In theory I'd say it's the same principle as brewed coffee... more solids are yielded from smaller grind size, longer brew time, higher temperature, ... also low density beans extract solids easier... Brazilians perhaps


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

MWJB said:


> ...
> 
> So, if I'm not far off the limits grind-wise...how do I get a higher brew ratio with these beans, just kill the shot at a smaller given weight out, irrespective of blonding/whether the extraction is done? Curious as to how I might get into Schecter's "Ristretto" territory...small shot/high doses yeilding less beverage weight than grinds! :-o
> 
> ...


Basically you need to slow down the pour so that less espresso is produced in the same amount of time. One would usually achieve this by creating more resistance in the filter basket by grinding finer but increasing the dose of ground coffee would also create more resistance.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Today I accidentally produced a ~100% shot.

18g in 17.5g out in about 38 secs. It was with some new Cuban coffee from coffeebeanshop. I guess I ground it a bit fine. It was actually pretty nice. It was just up to the 1fl/oz mark with crema, maybe a bit more. Very gloopy and thick


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nice one Chimpsinties, can I ask what determined the point when you killed the shot - weight, time, colour of extraction?


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

To be honest this time it was time. As it started to get toward 40secs I decided enough was enough. It took until about 15 secs to even drip so I knew it would be a slow one. I only weighed out of in terest at the end as I wasn't aiming for a ristretto, I'd just got some new beans so hadn't dialed them in.

On a related note I tried again with these beans and got them dialed in better. This time is was 18g in 31 out in exactly 25 secs. Absolutely beautiful shot


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

So, I just had a crack at a 100%er (21g in/21g out, seemed to be ~21g with crema in jug...but these beans aren't giving great crema, so not reading too much into that). Extraction sounds not dissimilar you Chimpsinties, got a reasonable pour from about halfway through...if I try again (I probably will) I'll go a little coarser on the grind.

Looked syrupy, tasted syrupy...the sweetness overrode any other flavours I was previously getting with these beans...no cherries, no nuts, no chocolate, just caramel/maple syrup. Not unpleasant in itself, just a little one dimensional (all factors being equal, with these same beans, compared to previous).

Much better (different?) result than I expected, I was daring myself to take a sip...thought it would be a salty, tarry, sink job. No obvious signs of over extraction on the palate.

MikeHag, I'd be curious to see what your refractometer says when you get round to it. Although I'm referring to this as a "100% extraction" (well, more of a choker, beaten with a stick than an "extraction"...) I wonder, does the TDS change significantly beyond a certain point...or does TDS change nominally & the various dissolved solids giving the specific flavour components change within that broadly similar TDS?

I've had what I thought was "extremely strong coffee" before & it gave me an instant headache & palpitations...none of that this time, so wondering whether "strength" in noob/laymans terms, is a little erroneous and previous experiences were down to excess undissolved solids?

Sorry if this is recovering old ground for a lot of you & I'm just regurgitating noob misconceptions on high brew ratios.

On the original title of the thread, I think it is possible (if not exactly best practice, or desirable) to dose & extract shots purely by volume (in a power cut say, with a known volume receptacle & ...er, a gas powered espresso machine?...or just camping! Yes, I'll go with camping...people do that.). 40g of settled espresso grinds seems to pretty much be 14g (measured this with various beans & fineness of grind, even put whole beans in a 14g scoop & results were +1g at worst), so 14g/40ml in & 40ml out (admittedly difficult to guage with good crema) gives us a ~35% brew ratio. 2 scoops of grinds, one scoop beverage gives ~70%.

Need a lie down now...twitching should subside shortly....


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

MWJB said:


> On the original title of the thread, I think it is possible (if not exactly best practice, or desirable) to dose & extract shots purely by volume (in a power cut say, with a known volume receptacle & ...er, a gas powered espresso machine?...or just camping! Yes, I'll go with camping...people do that.). 40g of settled espresso grinds seems to pretty much be 14g (measured this with various beans & fineness of grind, even put whole beans in a 14g scoop & results were +1g at worst), so 14g/40ml in & 40ml out (admittedly difficult to guage with good crema) gives us a ~35% brew ratio. 2 scoops of grinds, one scoop beverage gives ~70%.


 Is it just me or does this make absolutely no sense at all? Haha! I think you might still be on your caffeine high.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

"Might be" on a caffiene high? Ha ha. I don't think you'll get good odds against it at the bookies. 

Grind into your Rattleware jug, up to the 40ml line, give it a couple of taps on the counter, so the grinds settle evenly...you now have 14g in there, might vary a tiny tad. Dump the grinds into the PF, brew, clean the jug & extract back into the jug, if your crema isn't too wild (or after all has settled down) & you have 40ml of beverage, that's a 35% brew ratio (even if you were a whole "g" adrift, grindswise, that's only +/- 2.5% BR).

Not as accurate as the weighing method, but perhaps a passable "rule of thumb". After all, we might have scales that read g to 2 decimal places, but how often can you repeat extractions to 1 decimal place, let alone 2?


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