# "Gushing" and poor shots



## LJ50

Newest of newbies here, seeking a little advice.

Bought a second hand Rancilio Silvia (v2) a couple of months ago (on this forum) and been trying every since to get a consistent, decent double shot out of it, but with absolutely no success. I've temperature surfed, varied grind, varied dosage, even bought pre-ground, fresh coffee to eliminate the grinder as they issue.

I could one on the fingers of one hand the number of really good shots that have come out, but repeating exactly the same dosing, grind (even from the same bag of pre-ground), tamp pressure and technique, portafilter, basket, etc. brings wildly different results. The main symptom seems to be "gushing". When using standard portafilter, it's always out of the left hand nozzle...

Changed the gasket and shower screen a month ago. They were both pretty grotty, so I was optimistic...but I'm still getting still the same. 4-5 seconds of pressure building, 4-5 seconds of a decent looking shot appearing then it starts gushing until I have to swtich off after 18-20 seconds and am left with a "muddy" looking shot.

A couple of pictures below of baskets after extraction, maybe that would give some kind person something to base any advice they wish to offer on (last one shows a 14g dosage, the other two around 15.5g).

Thanks in advance

LJ.


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## h1udd

sounds like you are not grinding fine enough ..... what grinder you using


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## GCGlasgow

First two pics seem to have a lot of space round the edges, you could try spreading the coffee out with a toothpick prior to tamping to make it more even?


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## jeebsy

What are you tamping with?


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## Stevie

Looks like the basket might be slightly overfilled too. What I found with my Silvia is that the standard basket definitely doesn't hold what a commercial machine does, so I tend to do about 14g to 26-30g espresso. 14g in the basket (use scales and don't guess) should allow a fairly fine grind, but yes it can be inconsistent as I don't feel the Silvia has a whole lot of pump pressure...


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## LJ50

Thanks guys for input.

1st picture is ground at the finest I can get to with the Iberital MC2 grinder. Other two pictures are using pre-ground from Pact.

Tamping with a decent Tamp I bought from Bella (can't recall model).

Usually spread coffee with a toothpick or at the very least give it a few taps with the tamp to distribute the coffee.

@ Steve, None of those doses are more than 16g (a 14g, a 15.5g and a 16g). All measured with the Bewista scale (I'm quite finickity with recipes, etc. so they're all to the 0.1g).

Thanks all.


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## Glenn

Do you have a grinder?

If not, the pre-ground is likely to be the issue - not fine enough.

Try tamping harder to compensate for it.

If/when you have a grinder then perhaps a visit/training will imemdiately sort out those issues for you.


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## LJ50

Glenn said:


> Do you have a grinder?
> 
> If not, the pre-ground is likely to be the issue - not fine enough.
> 
> Try tamping harder to compensate for it.
> 
> If/when you have a grinder then perhaps a visit/training will imemdiately sort out those issues for you.


Thanks Glenn,

As I mentioned, I have an Iberital MC2 grinder which I used for the first picture. I bought the pre-ground (selecting espresso machine) to try and rule that out as the issue after trying every single variation on coarse / fine / as fine as will go using the MC2. Really doesn't seem to matter what I do, the result is (pretty much always) the same.

If anyone knows a good trainer in or around South Essex, then recommendations for that also welcome.

Thanks


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## owain

Pact pre-ground won't be fine enough, even with a sturdy tamp it flowed too quick. I found 14g left the shot a little acrid flowed too quick, 16g dwell time was too long tasted bit burnt, 15g is the best amount for my tastes. The taste can identify the problem in some cases I found.


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## Stevie

Although a bit off topic I've found coffee from Pact very poor compared to stuff from reputable roasters. I'd switch to a has bean, origin or square mile subscription. Stay with 14g dose and it's if its still running too fast then your grinder doesn't seem to be going fine enough


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## Mrboots2u

LJ50 said:


> Thanks Glenn,
> 
> As I mentioned, I have an Iberital MC2 grinder which I used for the first picture. I bought the pre-ground (selecting espresso machine) to try and rule that out as the issue after trying every single variation on coarse / fine / as fine as will go using the MC2. Really doesn't seem to matter what I do, the result is (pretty much always) the same.
> 
> If anyone knows a good trainer in or around South Essex, then recommendations for that also welcome.
> 
> Thanks


The coffee that was not pre ground , that you used your MC2 for - what was it ?

Also the MC2 is reknown for having to turn / adjust alot , to get dial in


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## oursus

If you have done the basic maintenance (cleaned screen, dispersal plate, descaled, replaced gasket etc) it's not the machine. You can check all looks ok on the Seattle coffee YouTube "Silvia Brew Head Maintenance" - if all the bits are there & clean you're good to go (you bought from the forum, so would expect all to be ok there)

How much coffee are you drinking (if you're going back to the machine after a while & your coffee is older, that can flow faster)

The frustrating thing that you don't want to hear is "10 to 1 it ain't the kit, it's what you're doing" the good news is "10 to 1 it ain't the kit, it's what you're doing"!

If you are not a fan of frustration, a class/training session will bypass a lot of that!

Temp surf every shot, it gives consistency. Take out all the variables except one & vary that only.

If you're using the standard rancilio basket (my Silvia & my commercial Rancilio have identical baskets) 14-16g should be fine, 14g is a traditional double shot, pick a weight & stick with it, don't vary it until you are getting consistent shots.

Tamping, tamp evenly & consistently, I place my fingers/thumb on the rim of the basket/tamper... There are a lot of tampers which may make your process easier, but to be honest, you can pull a shot using the plastic one that comes with the machine.

The MC2 isn't a problem, it's a good first grinder, but as @Glenn said, it does take a hell of a lot of turns on the worm drive to go from coarse to "clogged" but it will do that, so the grinder is not the issue. (only adjusting finer while the chamber is empty, or moving, right?)

The next thing to take out of the equation is the bean, pick something you like & stick with it till you're getting consistency, as @Stevie mentioned, most roasters will deliver a kilo of something good for less than you are paying Pact. (I have to say, I've had some cracking coffee from them, but not cheap









Apologies, it was @Mrboots2u who mentioned the worm (should be slug) drive


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## LJ50

All, thanks a lot for the suggestions.

Re grinder; yes have turned in the "fine" direction (whilst grinder off and empty) for ages... Actually also tried a bit coarser, but went back to turning towards fine for a minute or two. I could see the difference, but it didn't make any difference to the outcome.

I'm drinking maybe 4 coffees a day, three days a week as that's when I'm at home. Been pulling extras for the practice at the weekends though, probably a dozen shots over the course of yesterday for example. I'm not getting better with practice ?

I'd be really keen to learn more from a trainer, but have a preference for learning on my own kit if that makes sense. I'm not a million miles from Prufrock, who do day courses, but would rather do at home and overcome the idiosyncrasies of my own equipment.

@ oursus, funnily enough it was the Seattle links I used to do maintenance and to swap gasket, etc. Will try some other coffee, but to be honest have been searching for two good shots in a row so I could stick to that formula, those two shots have just never come ?

Thanks again all


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## hubrad

Dunno if it's just me, but I've usually found a lighter roast bean to be far harder to control than a darker roast. Still brilliant tasting, but it's amazing what angles things can spurt out at!


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## Mrboots2u

hubrad said:


> Dunno if it's just me, but I've usually found a lighter roast bean to be far harder to control than a darker roast. Still brilliant tasting, but it's amazing what angles things can spurt out at!


Grinding finer > more likely to highlight any distrubution flaws or flaws in said grinder ....


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## MWJB

LJ50 said:


> Re grinder; yes have turned in the "fine" direction (whilst grinder off and empty) for ages... Actually also tried a bit coarser, but went back to turning towards fine for a minute or two. I could see the difference, but it didn't make any difference to the outcome.


Are you saying that grinding coarser or finer makes no difference to the taste of the shot, nor the time taken to reach your brew ratio?

The "outcome" is a given weight of liquid from a set dose, that tastes nice. Changing the grind setting is how we dial in the taste.

You say you are finicky about recipes, but I can't see any references to shot taste, nor weight of shot anywhere in this thread?


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## oursus

MWJB said:


> Are you saying that grinding coarser or finer makes no difference to the taste of the shot, nor the time taken to reach your brew ratio?
> 
> The "outcome" is a given weight of liquid from a set dose, that tastes nice. Changing the grind setting is how we dial in the taste.
> 
> You say you are finicky about recipes, but I can't see any references to shot taste, nor weight of shot anywhere in this thread?


 @LJ50 just to give some scale to what we mean by "a lot of turns" if I (who can never resist dismantling appliances) were moving from filter to espresso on the little Iberital, I would pop the collar off, remove one of the screws on the worm drive bracket, empty the chamber, wind the collar in by hand until the burrs gently touch, back off by a few teeth, then re-assemble & adjust from there. Not saying you should do that, but it is a hell of a hike from coarse to fine!


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## lotuseater

The grind looks too coarse to me in those pics.


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## TomBurtonArt

The indentation of the screw on the top of the first two pucks suggests over filling the basket too, the general rule should be to be able to fit a penny in the basket on top of the coffee without it making an indentation when locked in place.

On top of that, all the advice above is sound.

MC2 is more than capable of choking your machine, take the top off it and take the worm drive out and manually remove the top burr to clean, then screw in by hand until just touching, re-engage the worm drive and put it back together, then turn 6 full turns backwards. That was always my starting point for new beans.


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## TomBurtonArt

Also, dont tighten your grind with the machine off/not running.


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## LJ50

MWJB said:


> Are you saying that grinding coarser or finer makes no difference to the taste of the shot, nor the time taken to reach your brew ratio?
> 
> The "outcome" is a given weight of liquid from a set dose, that tastes nice. Changing the grind setting is how we dial in the taste.
> 
> You say you are finicky about recipes, but I can't see any references to shot taste, nor weight of shot anywhere in this thread?


I mean in the outcome in terms of the gushing around 18 to 20 seconds.

Thw weight of shot - based on when I switch off the machine as it starts to gush - is around 45-50g, again based on 14-16g dosages. And, because of the gushing, it's fair to say the coffee taste is a disappointment


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## LJ50

oursus said:


> @LJ50 just to give some scale to what we mean by "a lot of turns" if I (who can never resist dismantling appliances) were moving from filter to espresso on the little Iberital, I would pop the collar off, remove one of the screws on the worm drive bracket, empty the chamber, wind the collar in by hand until the burrs gently touch, back off by a few teeth, then re-assemble & adjust from there. Not saying you should do that, but it is a hell of a hike from coarse to fine!


Thanks again. I'll order some new beans tonight and then try that later in the week.

As I said, I bought a few of bags of pre-ground just to try to eliminate the grinder as the cause.


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## MWJB

LJ50 said:


> I mean in the outcome in terms of the gushing around 18 to 20 seconds.
> 
> Thw weight of shot - based on when I switch off the machine as it starts to gush - is around 45-50g, again based on 14-16g dosages. And, because of the gushing, it's fair to say the coffee taste is a disappointment


And you say you are as fine as you can grind? Are you hearing the burrs gnash?

The coffee taste is a disappointment because you're not able to keep the water & coffee together for long enough...it could be that you are too fine and water is forcing its way around the puck, but then I would have expected some shots to be longer than 20 seconds for 50g. Overall, it still sounds like you are too coarse?

Give us the details of each shot, one at a time: grind setting, dose weight (measured in the basket/PF, not timed, not beans added to grinder), shot weight, time (overall, don't fret if the speed changes) & most importantly taste.


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## Obnic

Some good solid advice already in the thread:

Folk are worried about overfilling because as the puck expands on getting wet it needs space. A lack of space will lead to the puck cracking and therefore gushing. (14g seems to be the advice from those who know Silvia personally).

Once you are sure overfilling isn't the problem, distribution is the next culprit. Make sure the coffee is evenly spread in the basket before tamping gently and straight. Even distribution means water cannot find an easy route through the puck (gushing). I know its heresy in some circles but stirring with a needle taped to a lolly stick can work wonders with some grinders. Google 'WDT' for plenty of videos and advice.

Now your shots pour evenly you can use grind to control the speed at which you extract your desired drink ratio* (sour = too fast; bitter = too slow).

Have you tried Coffee Compass Brighton Lanes? That coffee seems, to me, to have a really big sweet spot for dose and grind. Might give you some drinkable shots whist you figure out how to tame Silvia!

*Ratio is a whole other topic. There's loads of advice on here.


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## oursus

LJ50 said:


> Thanks again. I'll order some new beans tonight and then try that later in the week.
> 
> As I said, I bought a few of bags of pre-ground just to try to eliminate the grinder as the cause.


Yeah, pre ground is a bit of an unknown, may be too coarse to begin with & also will become faster as the hours/days go by. Definitely better off with the grinder, the MC2 will do you fine, once you get yourself oriented with some reference points. If you're using 250g a week, then over a month you will be able to see how beans progress, Rave Signature is a steady middle of the road nuts & choc bean, super value for what it is. Foundry Rocko Mountain is also a firm favourite on this forum (so plenty of folks with experience of it) & will give you a little acidity to play with, if you like that.


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## Slee

Using my silvia I am doing 15g to 30ml in about 26 seconds ish. I do find I have to grind fine to get a good result. I'll be looking to upgrade my grinder because of this soon.


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## AussieEx

What's the roast profile on the beans? Lighter roasts tend to need finer grinds in my experience. I have a Eureka Mignon. 16g in for 32g out is my starting point. I often pull tighter into the ristretto range (16g/27g) if I want to emphasise the sweetness, and rarely pull longer than 16g/36g as the lungos are not so much to my taste.

As always, YMMV

EDIT: Should have added that I aim for a 27 second extraction time.


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## Vieux Clou

You might try taking the grind progressively finer until it just starts clumping. I've found that to be quite a good starting-point for dialling in.

You could try SCG Joe's method, too:


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