# Sage Dual Boiler - Any ideas



## cambosheff (Jan 1, 2016)

Afternoon all,

What would be an average/normal, whatever you'd like to call it price for a Sage Dual Boiler (BES920UK one). 10 months old, one careful owner?









Thanks in advance!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

30 to 35% less than the price paid. You have to be careful (as a purchaser) as sometimes these have been heavily discounted from the normal price


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm not sure the price paid by the seller really matters from a buyer's perspective; what's important is the price relative to what they're available for new at the time.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

dan1502 said:


> I'm not sure the price paid by the seller really matters from a buyer's perspective; what's important is the price relative to what they're available for new at the time.


don't agree one bit with you. when you have a product that the price shifts on a regular basis how do you know when to buy. the price for a new machine is irrelevant to the price paid for a used machine, especially if that machine was purchased new with a healthy discount. To a forum member, the ethos on here used to be pass it on and share the deal. That seems to be changing now with members buying things on the forum then trying to sell them back on the forum for more than they paid etc. If selling off the forum, I would agree with what you said


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well brand new it's £840 with free delivery at the link below...a few places available for £840-850

https://www.go-electrical.co.uk/small-appliances/coffee-makers/sage-heston-blumenthal-bes920cbuk-dual-boiler-espresso-coffee-machine-cranberry.html

If yours is 10 months old, that's around £580 using DFKs formula, I would have thought a more realistic £500 to £540 would get a sale in a reasonable time, as of course a brand new machine comes with white glove service etc.., a used one doesn't.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I don't know a lot about these but a very quick search suggests to me that red ones seem to be available at a significant discount to other colours.

When buying I would look at the best new price I can find at the time and search on ebay (advanced search, sold items) to see what they tend to go for second hand and in what condition. Coffee machines do seem to hold their value well if they're popular models in comparison to other goods. I also use the ebay advanced search to give me a steer when selling.

My point regarding the price paid is that say I manage to find a great deal on something which normally sells for higher, the advantage is that I should then be able to sell it a later date without as much loss. I'm not sure why I should have to sell it for less than market rate in future as that way I lose the benefit of making a savvy purchase (I've not factored in the forum ethos in this).

Edit: nothing comparable showing on ebay advanced search sold items at present so not much use.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

You're right the red ones are being discontinued which is why they're being sold off cheaper.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

In answer to the original question, the other element that effects price is how much warranty is left on any machine and if it's transferable.

John Lewis ones are and can be on a 2 or 3 year warranty.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

dan1502 said:


> .... I've not factored in the forum ethos in.


Hang out, the Forum ethos is real. Folks have been very generous to me with their time and loaning their equipment, and I've tried to reciprocate. It's common to have people give away bits and pieces; there's lots of collaboration on group purchases and sourcing esoteric items; members fabricating parts in their spare time for other members; and the suppliers offer forum members some cracking deals; and that's all before the forum-days and the raffles. It's more like a society than a forum.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Sorry, I am aware of it but meant I wasn't factoring into my reply about pricing.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dan1502 said:


> I don't know a lot about these but a very quick search suggests to me that red ones seem to be available at a significant discount to other colours.
> 
> When buying I would look at the best new price I can find at the time and search on ebay (advanced search, sold items) to see what they tend to go for second hand and in what condition. Coffee machines do seem to hold their value well if they're popular models in comparison to other goods. I also use the ebay advanced search to give me a steer when selling.
> 
> My point regarding the price paid is that say I manage to find a great deal on something which normally sells for higher, the advantage is that I should then be able to sell it a later date without as much loss. I'm not sure why I should have to sell it for less than market rate in future as that way I lose the benefit of making a savvy purchase (I've not factored in the forum ethos in this)..


£810 here

https://www.amazon.de/Gastroback-42636-Espressomaschine/dp/B007WR3OXO/ref=sr_1_2?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1472776167&sr=1-2&keywords=gastroback+espresso

Really shows how we are abused in the UK market....not the fault of the retailers, but in country pricing by the manufacturers.

All that said and all the banter, the Sage is a bit like my printer. RRP of £230, but regularly comes up at £145 as a discount every few months. There is a price and there is a price, those who want it right now pay that price, other wait for the inevitable deal. I often see the sage at around £850, various colours, sometimes even mit free grinder. So for used, I usually look at the street price of the item.


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## CantGetNoSleep (Sep 4, 2016)

These seem to pop up quite cheaply on Amazon Germany (branded Gastroback)


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> £810 here
> 
> https://www.amazon.de/Gastroback-42636-Espressomaschine/dp/B007WR3OXO/ref=sr_1_2?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1472776167&sr=1-2&keywords=gastroback+espresso


Wow, down to 630 euro now.

Note that the 42636 was for a long time, and maybe still is, the older bes900 which doesn't have the descale ports (the amazon picture has no ports). However, the picture on the gastroback site does have the ports so maybe this has changed.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

OK, that didn't last long.

In 5 minutes it went from 10 left at 630euro to to 1 left at 969!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well, at this very moment 18:15 Wednesday evening, it's currently priced at a *very sweet 380 euro* (free delivery within germany), surely worth international shipping. It's so cheap I am almost tempted and I have 3 dual boiler machines!!

At this price who cares if it's got descale ports or not, case of looking a gift horse in the mouth....so what's a used one worth, was the original question?

P.S I went through the process of ordering, no problem 29 euro delivery one left.....could have ordered easily and probably sold within the UK at a profit, but as I'm not that sort of person...who on the forum is going to get the last one when I remove it from my basket. it's £352 delivered in UK money, go on you know you want it.


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Well, at this very moment 18:15 Wednesday evening, it's currently priced at a *very sweet 380 euro* (free delivery within germany), surely worth international shipping. It's so cheap I am almost tempted and I have 3 dual boiler machines!!
> 
> At this price who cares if it's got descale ports or not, case of looking a gift horse in the mouth....so what's a used one worth, was the original question?
> 
> P.S I went through the process of ordering, no problem 29 euro delivery one left.....could have ordered easily and probably sold within the UK at a profit, but as I'm not that sort of person...who on the forum is going to get the last one when I remove it from my basket. it's £352 delivered in UK money, go on you know you want it.


It says to email them before ordering. The same seller has lots of listings at different prices, so must be damages stock?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

..don't look a gifthorse in the mouth


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> ..don't look a gifthorse in the mouth


Seems too good to be true...hope you're right and I'm wrong but it just seems odd.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well i could haveordered one for £350, now price is back up at 900 something euro and no UK delivery???


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Well i could haveordered one for £350, now price is back up at 900 something euro and no UK delivery???


still at 427 if you click through

https://www.amazon.de/gp/offer-listing/B007WR3OXO/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've just clicked on the seller profile and they they don't have any History.

Have anyone bought any of these?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I wanted to...I really wanted to....


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

As this was only available from marketplace sellers at this price i think it's a case of bullet dodged here. Well done to anyone who got one for 630 euros from Amazon direct but the other ones I think will be problematic.


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## CantGetNoSleep (Sep 4, 2016)

How much better is this than a Gaggia Classic?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

CantGetNoSleep said:


> How much better is this than a Gaggia Classic?


A lot better really, except, the Classic will be around many years after this has died and gone to heaven.....but if you are going to buy one, do not be led into overseas sales on price. The most important thing is the warranty available.....the longer the better.....I have not thought about this but i` reckon you can buy a 5 year warranty through one of the specialist insurance firms. tends to be based on price paid which could offer good value


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## CantGetNoSleep (Sep 4, 2016)

Thank you - you think Amazon warranty (direct from Amazon) wouldn't be sufficient?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is the length of time. I presume Amazon UK give the standard 2 year warranty.....explore and see how much it costs to extend that. The machine is loaded with complicated electronics which means a fail outside the warranty period may be expensive


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

CantGetNoSleep said:


> Thank you - you think Amazon warranty (direct from Amazon) wouldn't be sufficient?


https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01E5O88GE/ref=psd_bb_lm_B00G6FVTTE_B01E5O88GE


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

There is no amazon warranty with this as it's supplied by marketplace sellers. They supply the warranty on it.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Definitely a scam by the way

https://wirednot.wordpress.com/2015/05/01/the-curious-case-of-bogus-amazon-sellers/


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've just clicked on the seller profile and they they don't have any History.
> 
> Have anyone bought any of these?


They do have history? However, the fact they ask you to email them, may well be an attempt to get you to purchase outside Amazon and paypal and then you're definitely not covered for fraud. Still I would never have bought cheap to sell on at a higher price, hence you can't scam an honest man









Find one fulfilled by Amazon though and your golden


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

So there is an Amazon DE supplied one available for £869 delivered so for OP question £840-£869 inc delivery seems to be a good ballpark range for real street price. Then my original estimate of 500-540 for a used machine seems realistic.


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I've always thought these machines were expensive, particularly if brought at the average price of £900 with a 2 year warranty. If it developes a complex fault after 3 years it's basically a right off.


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## coffee3253 (Jun 12, 2016)

why are they now 1200 I don't get it


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffee3253 said:


> why are they now 1200 I don't get it


Get your post count up to 10

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?44800-Sage-Dual-Boiler-16-01-2018


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

NickR said:


> I've always thought these machines were expensive, particularly if brought at the average price of £900 with a 2 year warranty. If it developes a complex fault after 3 years it's basically a right off.


£900 in comparison to other machines of its capability is actually a very competitive price. From the few posts here of people who have had problems it seems that spare parts are more difficult to find than your average machine which are by and large made out of pretty standard bits - I don't know how true this is or if you can source a part if you try hard enough.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

A refurbished DB can be obtained for about mid £500's or so when they are available. That's with a 6 month real warrantee - provide another or refund, then another 6 months that is a bit odd and I have no figures - partial refund. So to my mind that sets a max value for a used one with no warrantee at all. They do seem to fetch more than that though at times making buying new and selling as soon as the warrantee is up more favourable than it should be really..

When ones are sold with a transferable warrantee things get more difficult especially as ones with a longer warrantee can be bought. I'd say price then does depend on how much is left and of course no proof about condition really especially on maintenance*. I have that problem actually. My BE has around 15 months left. I have other reasons for not selling it yet but one aspect is that I don't expect to be able to get much more for it if it had say 9 months left. That's life. It would come with 2 portafilters - helps make several drinks on the trot quicker and a modified medium capacity basket. I wouldn't expect that to have much effect on the price. It can be packed in it's original box. That sort of thing can attract slightly higher prices on most things and also help things stand out compared with others are for sale at the same time. So going in actual sales on ebay I might get mid £300's for it. Same source on DB's a bit sub £500 and as I mentioned for refurbished.

Maybe a sum is how I would look at it for a used one with a long warrantee left. (1100-500)/2 + 500 = £800 tops or there abouts. That may or may not be similar to the figure on the one for sale on here - I've not read it. In my case and I suspect many others if there wasn't a pretty significant saving I'd buy a new one instead. This assumes that the warrantee can be transferred as well. I think it can where ever they are bought from







personally I'd check myself.

John

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* I am not suggesting anyone is dishonest by the way. I just approach any used purchase on this basis.

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Dylan said:


> £900 in comparison to other machines of its capability is actually a very competitive price. From the few posts here of people who have had problems it seems that spare parts are more difficult to find than your average machine which are by and large made out of pretty standard bits - I don't know how true this is or if you can source a part if you try hard enough.


What people have had problems and have had difficulty with repairs? Some parts are dedicated but that's true of many machines depending how far you delve into them.

I ordered a shower screen once due to it showing a photo of the usual item. I thought the price was disgusting at the time. What turned up was a sizeable casting that was a part of the group head. There is no doubt that they do hold spares stock as from time to time they get repaired.

It looks like there has been some machinations on spares. I decided to buy some from what was the actual stock holder and was told that I had to go via Sage but that they could provide part numbers. That implies rather technical parts - not the stuff shown on their web page. Maybe they will expand to include those at some point. It's rather odd that the "shower screen" I mentioned was on their site - fitting it wouldn't be a 5min job. Actually I've wondered how that item could get screwed up. Maybe corrosion, more likely a stripped thread that holds the shower screen proper in place.








Careful choice or words -machinations. They might just be what that implies. I'd hope not as anything other than DIY repairs doesn't interest me at all. If I had to use an engineer for some reason I would also expect it to be a local one. I'm not keen on paying some ones travelling expenses or having a machine taken away for repair and paying for that as well.

The warrantee actually is primarily a repair one - replacements only if they can't be repaired. They all seem to be carried by Sage themselves. JL will tell fibs too when faults are reported.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You are getting confused over warranties. Second hand goods usually have 6 months retailer warranty where it is presumed the fault was there when you purchased it, and a further 6 months warranty where the presumption is that the fault has developed since purchase and is not fair wear and tear. When making a new purchase, the warranty is manufacturer based, honoured through the retailer initially


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> So there is an Amazon DE supplied one available for £869 delivered so for OP question £840-£869 inc delivery seems to be a good ballpark range for real street price. Then my original estimate of 500-540 for a used machine seems realistic.


I had a quick look and didn't see any comments about warrantee. German sources for other things usually make a rather big point of that. That may explain the lower price. Odd things go on eg A hot water dispenser I bought with 2 years warrantee. Off Amazon. The rather simple water level sensor developed a problem so contacted the manufacturer and was told Amazon carried the first 12 months, they the next 12. This may be why it was much cheaper than other sources. I've no way of knowing but amazon replaced it without any problem and the purchase now tells me the date where they ceased to offer that option. I buy all sorts off them and what happens in this respect varies.

So buy from amazon.de and I suspect that the warrantee might be how long Amazon show return or replace, on some things those options seem to change to just replace at some point and both disappear eventually. Going on items I buy the time is variable and I have no idea why. There are probably certain legal factors in play. Those are generally difficult to pin down.

The refurnished outlet I mentioned also sell some as used - they just have an X day return option. If some one bought one and had problems after X I'd wish them luck trying to sort it out otherwise they wouldn't state that.

John

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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

ajohn said:


> What people have had problems and have had difficulty with repairs?
> 
> -


Just comments that have been made on the forum. Not something I'm going to dig up, they could be incorrect or come from lack of effort. I have not seen anyone diagnose a fault with an internal part and attempt to replace. Who knows, maybe that speaks for their ability to last at least a few years.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@ajohn

do you think all the machines that turn up recondition through XS and the like are customer returns then? Coffee Classics told me they repair the vast majority of items returned to Sage and of that, most have failed due to scale issues which is a problem for them having such small boilers


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> @ajohn
> 
> do you think all the machines that turn up recondition through XS and the like are customer returns then? Coffee Classics told me they repair the vast majority of items returned to Sage and of that, most have failed due to scale issues which is a problem for them having such small boilers


I've no idea. I did ask about the one I sent back to XS and was told that they couldn't sell them - they said they had to be disposed of. They also said they have to sell some as used rather than refurbished. They were ok to deal with as other than the reply to no steam and 3 beeps - descale the steam wand.







I pointed out that this can't be done - look in the manual, still can't, no mention. Then they paid for the return and offered to find me another. Actually during descale the steam selector may still function. I haven't checked. There was no point doing much with the one that went back. Other than initially during the my first power up it wasn't heating the steam boiler. So steam and then 5 to 10min later no steam so the heating had failed. The pumps rattled a lot during the first fill so that is probably when it failed. I can sort of guess why too and would have loved to open it and check. I opened the drains on the 2nd one to make sure the machine was empty. Personally I would drain if I ever transported the machine and the same again when it got where ever it was going. Air locks can do strange things.

Before I bought the BE I spent a long time looking for problems mentioned on the web. Didn't find much at all. It's the same with the DB. I now know that I need to include Breville in the search as well. A few things crop up.

The valve error during descale - tanks not draining. If that is due to a chunk of scale more fool the user, it's been done way too late. A comment suggests that it can also be caused by errant level sensors and if this is the case the actual boiler might cause the same problem or a combination of both.

3 beeps and no steam. I get the impression that the beeps mean that steam boiler is too cool. Just no steam does probably mean that something is blocked. Comments suggest that the lack of heat is down to a fault in the heating circuit. Either or both of the element or a thermal fuse. The thermal fuse blowing might not save the element.

Blocked 3 way valve. Some dismantle and clean them according to some one who replaced his with a new one.

That just about covers everything I have seen mentioned even on this site except a machine sold because the person who was selling it was fed up of throwing money at it. That might be the same machine that had a valve error message mentioned. This is why I asked what posts. I've spent a lot of time looking all over the place for info on problems with their machines. A post where some one tried to get spares and couldn't would be really interesting. It looks like they can be repaired by anyone in the USA.

I understand that with the new filter is changed as they suggest there is no need to descale -







Brave claim given that they have only just started using them. An attraction for me is that the machine can be descaled. Takes a while with 2 flushes but no spanners needed. I think Dave C has a machine with that facility and infusion - cost £2.500 or so. Maybe the plumbing on that is very robust. Leaks on Sage seem to relate to machines old enough for seals to perish. Best spotted before they cause serious leaks - not easy on a Sage which is sad but if they made conventional machines they might use tamperproof screws as they are consumer product orientated.








Here's an interesting one

[video=youtube;-_9zvWf4U2Q]






Isn't that the clean me light that's on? Doubt if that relates to the problem hot water coming out though - a solenoid or manual valve is leaking. Probably does relate to the amount in the drip tray.

John

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