# Spanish water for brew



## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

I am on holiday with the family in Spain and am obviously relaxing by cataloguing and analysing the different mineral waters available for brew coffee (Clever and aergrind both with me). It seems a bit weird as some bottles put the content with a decimal point and others with a comma. I assume this should be a decimal point as it says on all labels they are reported in mg/l.

Also do we need to know conductivity or amount left after burning (both seem to be reported on a couple of bottles - perhaps MJWB might advise. From my basic look it seems Font Vella might strike a good balance?










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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

They list 'amount left after heating to 180 degree c...' e.g. 20

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Amount after heating isn't particularly useful.

Font Vella looks 'useable', similar to average, hard UK tapwater (like Highland Spring?).

I'd maybe compare to Nestle Aquarel?


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Amount after heating isn't particularly useful.
> Font Vella looks 'useable', similar to average, hard UK tapwater (like Highland Spring?).
> I'd maybe compare to Nestle Aquarel?


Thanks a lot... I will do a brew off... do the numbers as they are written in the table make sense? Seems a massive range within a category....

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nod said:


> Thanks a lot... I will do a brew off... do the numbers as they are written in the table make sense? Seems a massive range within a category....
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Variation in water composition is huge. Can be almost pure to brackish (quarter as much content as seawater).

Double check all values as mg/L...sometimes a supplier will slip in "mg/100mL" just to confuse 

Lanjaron might be worth a try too.

Basically (for brewed) bicarb from 20-30mg/L up to about 80mg/L should be OK, more bicarb the more acidity is flattened off, but you still have to taste the coffee brewed with the water.


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## Caribbean (Nov 16, 2018)

I am from Spain and I usually use Nestlé acuarel. In my city (Granada) the tap water is good in flavor but a little hard for the machine (16'7 ° F) so I mix this bottled water with 1/5 of tap water to increase the hardness and alkalinity.

Bottled water in Spain is either too soft or too hard, it is very difficult to find medium grade.


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

Thanks both - I will try the waters you suggest. I have had a look and in spanish they use a comma instead of a decimal point so I think the values in the table are correct. However I have also found this interesting paper so will cross reference... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242234757_Analysis_of_Spanish_bottled_and_tap_waters_and_implications_of_their_use_in_urinary_stones

It seems to have analysis of all spanish waters...

Interesting about Granda water Carribean - I am in Santa Pola near Alicante and assumed I should go bottled but maybe I will give it a try....

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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

If anyone wants the paper....









I can't seem to upload a pdf...

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## Caribbean (Nov 16, 2018)

Nod said:


> Thanks both - I will try the waters you suggest. I have had a look and in spanish they use a comma instead of a decimal point so I think the values in the table are correct. However I have also found this interesting paper so will cross reference... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/242234757_Analysis_of_Spanish_bottled_and_tap_waters_and_implications_of_their_use_in_urinary_stones
> 
> It seems to have analysis of all spanish waters...
> 
> ...


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

So having a look you are right Carribean that no water falls in the correct range. Does that mean I should be blending, for example, Lanjaron and nestle aquarel? How do I calculate how many parts of each to add?

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

There is no "correct range" for brewed (all the discussion about water I have seen centres around boilers). Either use what tastes best, or experiment with the mixes to taste best.

How you are sing the Clever Dripper & grind setting are way more important.

But, since you asked, 1:1 Aquarel & Lanjaron would give 60mg/L bicarb (~50mg/L alkalinity a CaCO3) in the middle of espresso machine boiler ideal zone.


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

Thanks a lot MWJB... I am using a clever dripper technique I think works really well... it was mentioned in the forum a way back:

1. 30mg coffee to 500 water
2. Grind 1.5 turns on aergrind
3. Wet filter and rinse
4. Add boiling water into dripper (no coffee added) until about half way (? Around 350gr)
5. Add coffee and start brew timer. Stir the coffee so all wet. (It is much easier to stir if add coffee when dripper not full)
6. Add rest of water up to 530gr
7. Steep till 3 mins and then 'plunge'
8. All done by 4 mins

I have found this method allows me to grind a lot finer than the method where you add the coffee at the beginning. It seems to extract a lot better as it seems to avoid the coffee stalling/clogging down by the bottom of the filter.

Any thoughts? Thanks

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nod said:


> Thanks a lot MWJB... I am using a clever dripper technique I think works really well... it was mentioned in the forum a way back:
> 
> 1. 30mg coffee to 500 water
> 2. Grind 1.5 turns on aergrind
> ...


 Similar what I do for a Clever immersion, but my steep is 10x as long.

Adding half, or so, of the water first stops so much silt getting flushed through the paper at the start of brew (an issue with any steep & release that drains through the bed).


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Similar what I do for a Clever immersion, but my steep is 10x as long.
> Adding half, or so, of the water first stops so much silt getting flushed through the paper at the start of brew (an issue with any steep & release that drains through the bed).


That is good to know... so would I increase the steep time to 30 mins but then still expect the drain time to be one minute?

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nod said:


> That is good to know... so would I increase the steep time to 30 mins but then still expect the drain time to be one minute?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 There's nothing magic, or even desirable about a 1min drain time, drain time is purely a function of grind size. Once all the coffee & water have sat together for a few minutes, the drain contributes very little to the extraction. 4 or 5 min drains don't do any harm, as long as the coffee is warm enough to enjoy


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

MWJB said:


> There's nothing magic, or even desirable about a 1min drain time, drain time is purely a function of grind size. Once all the coffee & water have sat together for a few minutes, the drain contributes very little to the extraction. 4 or 5 min drains don't do any harm, as long as the coffee is warm enough to enjoy


Ahh! I think this is more than my concrete brain can cope with. I have always established the grind I use by the 'one minute drain'. Ie if it drains in minute then u are in the right ball park for grind. If you remove this requirement and add in unlimited brew time it leaves you with no fixed parameters to keep constant to guide how u adjust the other variables... i think this would only leave you with taste? Which is a bit unscientific for my liking! How do U start? Do you keep a log and just makes lots of different brews and see which you like. I do have access to a refract so I guess I could change variables and then can refract to add some science to help calibrate my palate? Do you keep a constant grind MJWB or do you also change that? What was the process by which you got to your 30 min steeps? Also, when do you start to drain? If end time is 30 mins?

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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

Doh meant MWJB

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The brew will plateau in terms of extraction, as the temp drops it will slow down. One minute drain means you will always have a low extraction, because you are too coarse.

Science doesn't tell you what tastes nice, and 1:00 draw down isn't in any way scientific.

The simplest thing is to leave the brew as long as you can, after about 35min it might be too cool to enjoy. It might taste fine at a little less time, but may as well go with the lowest common denominator. Preheat server just before draw down, then use the server preheat water to heat the cups whilst draw down takes place.

You could, around 30min, lift the lid, skim off a bit of scum & taste out of the Clever with a spoon until happy...watch out for heat loss.

I keep a constant grind for all manual brewing, maybe tiny adjusts very infrequently. Manual brewing isn't that finicky re grind, if a few coffees work at a given setting, stick with it.

I tend to end up about 25% using the immersion formula. If the drink is silty go a tad coarser. Don't wiggle & thump the Clever on the server to speed up draw down, or

to get the last drops out, just place it & don't touch it again until you remove it.

To b honest I mostly use the Clever with a drip grind these days, bloom very gently with 4x dose weight, stir, leave 90s, then place on cup/server & add remaining brew water in a fast pour with regular kettle.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Start drain at 35min, ends maybe 40-ish.


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## Caribbean (Nov 16, 2018)

Nod said:


> Entonces, al echar un vistazo, tienes razón en el Caribe, ya que no cae agua en el rango correcto. ¿Eso significa que debería mezclar, por ejemplo, Lanjarón y nestle aquarel? ¿Cómo calculo cuántas partes de cada uno agregar?
> 
> Enviado desde mi iPhone usando Tapatalk


 Lanjarón is a very good water with a very good flavor. The mix that MWJB recommends with Aquarel I think will work very well. I also agree with what he says: with the brew better guided by the palate and not so much by the composition.

Maybe this link is of your interest:

https://www.perfectdailygrind.com/2018/07/testing-water-in-pursuit-of-excellent-coffee/


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

MWJB said:


> The brew will plateau in terms of extraction, as the temp drops it will slow down. One minute drain means you will always have a low extraction, because you are too coarse.
> Science doesn't tell you what tastes nice, and 1:00 draw down isn't in any way scientific.
> The simplest thing is to leave the brew as long as you can, after about 35min it might be too cool to enjoy. It might taste fine at a little less time, but may as well go with the lowest common denominator. Preheat server just before draw down, then use the server preheat water to heat the cups whilst draw down takes place.
> You could, around 30min, lift the lid, skim off a bit of scum & taste out of the Clever with a spoon until happy...watch out for heat loss.
> ...


Thanks a lot MWJB that is really helpful. I am off to the supermarket to buy water and will get stuck in. When you say drip grind are you talking somewhere nearer espresso? Ie pretty fine? If espresso is 1 on a scale and cafetière 10 are you talking about a 3??

Also when you say bloom you are talking water first and then coffee as described in your earlier post... light agitation... thanks

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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

Caribbean said:


> Lanjarón is a very good water with a very good flavor. The mix that MWJB recommends with Aquarel I think will work very well. I also agree with what he says: with the brew better guided by the palate and not so much by the composition.
> Maybe this link is of your interest:
> https://www.perfectdailygrind.com/2018/07/testing-water-in-pursuit-of-excellent-coffee/


Thanks a lot - this article is great... also describes the SCAA water guide which I haven't seen before... I am going to give the water mix a try this afternoon...

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Nod said:


> Thanks a lot MWJB that is really helpful. I am off to the supermarket to buy water and will get stuck in. When you say drip grind are you talking somewhere nearer espresso? Ie pretty fine? If espresso is 1 on a scale and cafetière 10 are you talking about a 3??
> 
> Also when you say bloom you are talking water first and then coffee as described in your earlier post... light agitation... thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 For the drip style brew, as the grinds are coarser, you can add coffee, then water, A quick back & forth with a spoon is all you need.

I don't brew cafetiere with coarse grinds, unless a very long, large 800ml+/insulated steep.

For long steep Clever I'd use coarser end of espresso/finest drip, maybe 2 on your scale? Same as I'd use for a small glass cafetiere.

For drip style brews, around what I'd use for V60, Kalita etc., no idea what that would be on your scale, if by cafetiere you mean very coarse (which will never work), then 6 or 7.

I can't believe we're still talking in terms of imaginary scales for coffee grinds. If espresso is "1" what's Turkish?

Long steep Clever grind would be around 400-450um average, or 25%+ under 400 Kruve

Drip would be 700-800um average, or 10-13% under 400 Kruve.


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

Thanks a lot... I have a good idea now on grind and will give a few brews a try - also I had better start looking at buying a kruve!

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