# My 2 Pence on the Espro Toroid Jug



## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

So I've been using my Toroid jug for quite a while now, with my Ponte Vecchio Lusso MK2. Here's how I've been getting on









While I still plan to get the bog standard basic jug, I love my Toroid. You still need skill to get microfoam, and following the instructions to cause it's "toroidal flow" is just rubbish. It's great for beginners who want something easy, but standard milk stretching results in such an amazing micro-foam.

My steam arm has three holes, and doesn't swivel but there's an awesome spot in steaming that causes the milk to really whiz round the jug. The smaller spout on the jug is good for latte art definitely, but I'm used to a wider one.

One problem I found though, if the steam arm isn't completely purged before, the result is a lot of soap bubbles when first switched on and overflow results!

If you haven't got one yet, get one! Well worth the money, I only have the smaller 12oz one and it's sufficient.

Anyone else got on well with these too?


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## bobbytoad (Aug 12, 2011)

I can't get mine to work - the and equally can't use an ordinary jug! Been to scared to post about my inability to microfoam.

Have a 2 hole tip.

What's your technique, when stretching do you have the wand off centre/ against the side to get the milk spinning?

The guide seems to infer pointing wand straight down at the dimple? With the 2 hole not sure how this would work as the jets come out sideways at an angle

Help!


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Oh dear! I have the wand just off the centre, at a 45 degree angle (or the jug in my case) but I use the same technique at work. Once I've stretched the milk to 80 - 100 degrees, I sink the wand right down and tilt further to get that sort of flow where the milk "folds in" on itself without any of the hissing sound. I've tried pointing at the dimple, it does work but it's not as good. I'll have to post a video tomorrow!


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## bobbytoad (Aug 12, 2011)

Vid would be handy to see positioning

Will try off centre tomorrow thanks


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Right, here's a video for you







Bit of a fail, I've never steamed milk with one hand and filmed with the other. I'll try find my tripod for next time!






It's not perfect, but you get the idea. The milk turned out nicely, albeit a bit frothy. I normally remove the group handle to give a bit more room. But you can see what you're aiming for.

Regarding my shot, considering it's stale Costa beans and no shot glass for measurement I think it came out alright. I updosed the basket, still yet to weigh as I haven't got digital scales ...

Didn't blonde too quickly, I used the Fellini move, but I do need to level the machine hence it all coming out the left spout!

I'm not normally that messy either, I normally purge the group into a container, promise!









I didn't taste it as I'd just had a cup myself, but that was relatively acceptable and my Dad's Americano seemed to go down well.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Good for you for doing a video. What happens if you do the shot before the milk?


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

In terms of steaming performance, there's no difference. The machine gives out powerful steam even if you have the wand open, hot water running and a shot extracting. But I've always been taught to pull the shot after the milk, to save it from sitting so I haven't pulled shots before steaming milk.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

If the machine can steam the milk quickly I'd try doing it. Have the jug filled and ready before pulling the shot to minimise the time it takes. Yes, the shot will be more oxidised, but if you're fast then it isn't a problem and the milk will be much better. At the moment it is being left a long time between steaming and pouring, so it will not be as good for pouring.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Thanks







I do normally keep swirling the milk as I'm pulling the shot, but like you say it's better to pour immediately. I think if I also try preparing both the shot and jug at the same time and then manage to pull at the same time it'll go down nicely









Ironic thing is, at work we're told to leave the milk to sit for the flat white...


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Perhaps the intention of the costa flat white standard is to allow the milk to separate and then pour only the steamed milk from under the foam, leaving the foam in the jug. But if that were the case then why not just stretch less and then pour it all in immediately? I'm not criticising, btw, just trying to understand


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Apparently the foam is supposed to sit on the top of the drink, although it's supposed to still be mixed well. Not sure how that works.

My view is, it's basically thin correctly steamed latte milk with a single shot of coffee through a triple basket to try and make up for the bitterness caused by poor tamping and basket cleaning! Although when you do clean the basket out and tamp nicely, it does taste pretty good. Otherwise it's quite sour.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

A single shot in a flat white, huh? Always understood it to be a double, although it does seem to have many definitions.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

It's called a Cortissimo, and if the grind is right then effectively there's is only one shot being extracted into the cup, but through 21g of coffee. It is rather strong too. If a customer asks for an extra shot then a ristretto is added.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Now I'm afraid you've lost me







Is a cortissimo a flat white under a different name? The italian suggests a large cortado, so a single shot makes sense but I'm confused about how that links with a flat white.

And it sounds like it isn't actually a single shot, but a triple ristretto, which is fine but then I'm not sure what you mean by adding a ristretto afterwards. Sorry, I don't mean to ask so many questions but it's great to get an insight into how a chain does things.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

It's fine haha, not as bad as the customers, as soon as you mention anything about the coffee dosage, timing or even the word "shots" they're lost. Cortissimo is the name Costa seem to have made up for the flat white, so a flat white would be textured milk + a shot of cortissimo. But like you say, it does seem to be a triple ristretto.

Adding a ristretto afterwards is only done if the customer wants an extra shot, we can't actually just add another "Cortissimo".

You'd be surprised at how different the brand standards of Costa are to the worldwide standard of espresso. A double shot extracted for 20 seconds? No thanks...


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Cool. Thanks for explaining. So what is a costa ristretto?


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

That's ok







A Costa Ristretto is 15 seconds, can't be much difference between the two!

Most shots being pulled at work are blonde and horrible, I always want to hit stop when I see it being over extracted but that's not brand standard







I very rarely get to do a grind as I'm too picky on the machine about jug rinsing or shot quality ...


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Too picky? Im sure anyone who knows good espresso would rather be served by someone who cares about good quality control, like yourself, than a barista who is a bit carefree about grind or jug rinsing.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I seem to remember reading press releases when Costa first introduced their Flat White. According to the press release the drink was designed to be less bitter with a stronger, more intense coffee flavour and was aimed at coffee connoisseurs. This was achieved by cutting short a triple shot of espresso so only includes the compounds you usually get towards the start of a pour. I suppose this is where the Cortissimo name comes from. I am no linguist but I think this means very short in Italian. James, do Costa offer a Cortissimo on its own or is it only used within the Costa flat white?

Well done on the video by the way!


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Too picky? Im sure anyone who knows good espresso would rather be served by someone who cares about good quality control, like yourself, than a barista who is a bit carefree about grind or jug rinsing.


Too right but some basic training helps, something that one if your colleagues at an m5 services seems to have missed. Ordered a cap for my wife last week and honestly it had NO foam on it, he was even questioned by a colleague and was still 100% it was fine....that was until he sprinkled chocolate on and it just turned the top of the foamless drink brown. What a numpty.


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

Jimbow - I have never sold a Cortissimo on it's own. I tried a sip of one before I started liking espresso. Quite a kick behind it. I'm sure if the staff in your local will happily give you one if you ask, I think you'd just be charged for a single espresso + two extra shots.

Thanks! It was an awful video but I'll take a better one with decent lighting and stuff on my day's off.

The odd thing is, it's usually the opposite way around - too much froth on a latte! Did you watch them make it? Chances are he probably had a jug of milk that had been sat for a few minutes and was still hot and just used that, and the froth would have stayed in the jug. I've seen it done too many times.


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## bobbytoad (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks for the video and the off centre tip!!

Struggling to work out how to get the milk swirling around with a 2 tip hole, as soon as i blocked one up with a toothpick it was foam and vortex central!!!!

Getting some really thick dense foam, but it sits on top of the milk, for some reason i had the impression that all of the milk should be kinda fluffy???

oooh is that a white grinder in the back-ground - would like to see a clearer picture of that bad boy!!!

trying to pursued myself to get one of those mignons even though my Rocky seems to be doing an ok job


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## SlowRoast (Sep 24, 2010)

That's alright







I've never used a two tip hole, only three and five, so I can't be of much help there. Have you tried it right at the edge of the jug?

It is indeed, my lovely little Mignon. I've been playing around with the grind tonight with some nasty stale Costa beans, although to be fair what I'm drinking now ain't half bad. 2oz in about 30 seconds, compared to 20 seconds at work this tastes a whole lot better!








I fell in love with these grinders after seeing them at Bella Barista on the shelf, had to get one! This one only has a timer though, not a manual setting. But that and the fact it was on display knocked a nice chunk off the price


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## bobbytoad (Aug 12, 2011)

Grinder looks so damn cool!! i'm trying to pursued myself i need one lol

Only thing that puts me off is how easy is it to find your setting if going between chemex brew and espresso? my Rocky is easy as there are numbers on the hopper?


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