# About to throw Sage Barista Express through the window!



## Aardgoose

Hi,

New joiner here. I have recently bought a BE and I just cannot seem to get a decent espresso out of it. I'm now seriously considering returning it and going to pods or something.

I have modified the quantity, the grind, the tamp (separately). The espresso always (unless I use gorilla tamp) comes out within 10 seconds of start and is generally sour, which makes me think "under extraction". I'm going through bags of beans like they are going out of fashion but can't do testing for hours as eventually I'm buzzing and can't sleep at night!









Is it really this difficult? Do I have to weigh the grind by +/- 0.05g then weigh the output? I was hoping to get to a point and say "This is OK, keep these parameters and the coffee will be good for these beans."

Yours, despairingly,

Adam


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## MediumRoastSteam

Welcome to the forum. Which grinder do you have?


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## MediumRoastSteam

Sorry, just realised it has a built in grinder. What happens if you grind on the finest possible setting?


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## GCGlasgow

You do have to get to a point where you say 'this is ok' and stick to those parameters but to get to that you need to weigh input and output, try grinding as fine as it can go the slacken it off.


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## MatthewBw

What beans are you using? I had similar issues to start and wasted a few bags too but once I got it I haven't had much problem since.


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## MatthewBw

I had some beans someone gave me recently from whittards. Literally had to grind as fine as possible, add extra coffee and tamp with half my weight applied.

I've never had a problem since i abandoned supermarket beans and the whittards beans even though roasted 3 weeks earlier were awful to work with. Nice once I got it worked out,


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## Mrboots2u

Yes you need to weigh .

0.1g dose to nearest 1 gram out

Not needing to weight does not happen after practice . It's just something you don't make tasty espresso - I weight every dose , every shot . Given they you espresso is bad then I suggest you go back to basics to solve the problem.

But

What are the beans .

What dose are you using

How much coffee is it making in how many seconds.

What is does it taste off .


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## hotmetal

How much coffee are you putting in the basket? Have you tried upping the dose to slow the pour? Or a nutating tamp (rolling tamp) which can also slow a pour. You don't need to be 0.05g accurate but certainly 0.5g can make an appreciable difference to pour time.

Also worth remembering that some beans require a finer grind than others. It might be that the beans you're using need a grind that is finer than the BE grinder can go. Sure someone here can say what beans like a coarse grind (without me having to go digging through my grind chart).


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## MarkT

Hi welcome to the forum.







I also have a Barista Express too. It does drive me crackers sometime.

A few things I've learned from experience, if the beans are older then 4 weeks, I can't seem to get a good espresso out.

I do try to weigh sometime. However I m guilty of not weighing most times due to laziness.









Medium roast beans my starting point of grind level 4, front dial to 4 o'clock (grind amount), I get approx 19 g. Tamp with good pressure. I use Motta tamper, not the one that comes with.

My water is volvic and Waitrose 50/50 mix.

Double shots. Extraction Meters get to 11-12. Decent espresso.

Play around with the settings I have never needed to go higher then grind 4.

To start off with weigh your input and output.

I'm not an expert just sharing my experience.







hope it helps.


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## Mrboots2u

Ok here goes , this is what I don't get about not weighing output all the time . Why start doing it the decide to stop ? Have you calibrated yourself to the nearest gram ? Does your bean always look the same volume each time as it ages ? Do you never change beans . If your not weighing , then Your using another measure to stop the shot .

Let's say it's time - the it's a number in a piece of gear - same as weight is a number on a price of gear . Except the scale is more relevant and accurate to extraction.

Your stopping by volume . Your still watching the shot - stopping by a measure - Cept it's inaccurate etc etc .

Your stopping by colour - your still watching the shot etc etc .

So in all cases your having to watch the shot ( unless your using volumetrics which on these machines are ball park only ) . So watch the shot but with a scale under it . Doesn't make you less pro - less artisan - less Analogue.

My

Local barista doesn't weight ... They may have a volumetric machine that's rock solid , they may have been using the same blend or bean for 100s of shots , you have 2-4 shots to make a day not 100s. The reason you go into this is cause you thought cafe coffee was bad ..... Cafes are inconsistent too .

Weighing will stop you wanting to throw your machine out less and drink more of want you make .. So take the scale , tare it, put it under your cup . Enjoy


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## froggystyle

Boots, you would love a cafe I am visiting today, they want me to roast for them as they have a local only policy for all products, I asked the usual questions to determine what kind of bean and roast level they are looking for, they tell me they use pre ground from booker, put some in the pf (no weighing) then run the shot to a set time......


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## froggystyle

Think I might have a tea when I get there....


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## hotmetal

Wish my clients set the bar that low! They are going to go from zero to hero once they get the froggy beans.

You may have to throw in some training just to make sure they don't muller your beans though. You don't want to get the blame for them making a hash of your blend.


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## Mrboots2u

froggystyle said:


> Boots, you would love a cafe I am visiting today, they want me to roast for them as they have a local only policy for all products, I asked the usual questions to determine what kind of bean and roast level they are looking for, they tell me they use pre ground from booker, put some in the pf (no weighing) then run the shot to a set time......


And they probably have a very profitable business







. One man's tasty is always another man's bin food ...

Good luck though Froggy , sometimes quality will never win through the profit motive . Hope you get through this time . PS Perhaps has for a tea when you get there


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## NickR

The other question is how do you like your espresso? If like me, you enjoy it on holiday in Italy, then your going to have to get a proper Espresso blend. Generally beans sold in this country are single origin ie one type of bean. For an authentic espresso you need a blend. If you've sourced your beans from an"Artisan" roaster they are probably nowhere dark enough and will make utterly horrible espresso.


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## Drewster

NickR said:


> The other question is how do you like your espresso? If like me, you enjoy it on holiday in Italy, then your going to have to get a proper Espresso blend. Generally beans sold in this country are single origin ie one type of bean. For an authentic espresso you need a blend. *If you've sourced your beans from an"Artisan" roaster they are probably nowhere dark enough and will make utterly horrible espresso.*


What!? Really? Are you serious?!

Seems a pretty sweeping statement to make!!


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## 4085

Drewster said:


> What!? Really? Are you serious?!
> 
> Seems a pretty sweeping statement to make!!


Not if you consider espresso, to be the Italian version as opposed to the drink style......too many people concentrate on single origin whereas those that regularly drink blends get to appreciate the roasting skills


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> Not if you consider espresso, to be the Italian version as opposed to the drink style......too many people concentrate on single origin whereas those that regularly drink blends get to appreciate the roasting skills


Even Illy sell single origin beans. Where in Italy do you get your beans from?


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## Mrboots2u

I think your referring to the skill of blending as opposed to roasting . There are skills to roasting all beans - single origin or not . One is not more or less valid than the other . You can burn or under developed single origins or blends . Plus how do you know if your blend is pre or post roasted as a blend . ? Anyway what this had to do with the OP problems until we know what coffee he is using is academic and pointless


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## Mrboots2u

NickR said:


> The other question is how do you like your espresso? If like me, you enjoy it on holiday in Italy, then your going to have to get a proper Espresso blend. Generally beans sold in this country are single origin ie one type of bean. For an authentic espresso you need a blend. If you've sourced your beans from an"Artisan" roaster they are probably nowhere dark enough and will make utterly horrible espresso.


Where did this come from ? One man's authentic is another man's cup of robusta requiring spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down .

Live and let live . You ain't gonna enjoy my style , I don't enjoy yours . It does not matter one jot in the ways of the world .

What matters is the op get to tasty no matter what his preference . And a coffee that finishes extracting after 10 seconds something , somewhere is amiss . Authentic style or not .


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## Drewster

dfk41 said:


> Not if you consider espresso, to be the Italian version as opposed to the drink style......too many people concentrate on single origin whereas those that regularly drink blends get to appreciate the roasting skills


I have nothing against "Italian style" espresso - I do enjoy drinking espresso in Europe - when in Rome and all that....

What I "objected" to is the (sweeping) statement.....



> If you've sourced your beans from an"Artisan" roaster they are probably nowhere dark enough and will make *utterly horrible* espresso.


a) I have come across several "Artisan" roasters who roast very dark... (dark enough to be shiny, oily and almost black)....

b) I have come across several "Artisan" roasters whose coffee makes very nice espresso...

Some might even equate to "both"........


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## NickR

Mrboots2u said:


> Where did this come from ? One man's authentic is another man's cup of robusta requiring spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down .
> 
> Live and let live . You ain't gonna enjoy my style , I don't enjoy yours . It does not matter one jot in the ways of the world .
> 
> Want matters is the op get to tasty no matter what his preference . And a coffee that extracts after 10 seconds something , somewhere is amiss . Authentic style or not .


Just a guess really. I'm sure the Sage has an adequate grinder that could choke the machine if it was fed decent beans. Lightly roasted beans tend to need a very fine grind which might be beyond its capabilities - Actually I suspect that he may be using crap super market beans.


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## Mrboots2u

NickR said:


> Just a guess really. I'm sure the Sage has an adequate grinder that could choke the machine if it was fed decent beans. Lightly roasted beans tend to need a very fine grind which might be beyond its capabilities - Actually I suspect that he may be using crap super market beans.


He may be using stale beans from a supermarket , some of which are branded as authentic italian espresso







either way , something is amiss .

Stale coffee , too small a dose , barista error , until OP comes back who knows


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## Obnic

Here's my suggestion:

Let's start by trying to choke the machine. If you can choke it then you know you can work back from that to a decent shot. So...

Buy some ok beans for this purpose. The guys are right that stale beans will wreck your shot regardless of what you do so how about some Union beans from Waitrose or a newly opened can of Illy beans.

My strong hunch is that the problem is down to how you are building your puck (distribution). If your build is bad then the water will find a weak spot and shoot through like a fountain. The result is an under-extracted shot - sour as hell. So...

Set your grinder to its finest setting. Grind 18g (+/- 0.1g is accurate enough, that's about one bean) of coffee into the portafilter and work on getting the distribution perfect before you tamp. It can help to grind into a small pot and shake or whisk the grounds, or you can stick a straightened paper clip to the end of a lolly stick and stir the grounds in the portafilter. You want a bed of coffee with an absolutely even density at every point in the portafilter.

Now tamp *level*, absolutely level. Let your fingers and thumb overlap the tamper base so you can also feel the edge of the portafilter basket. You will feel if you are level or not when you twist the tamper to polish. If you feel uneven density when you tamp or an unlevel puck then tap it out into a cup, whisk it and start again.

Now, once you have a perfectly distributed and level puck, using reasonable beans, try an extraction. If the machine chokes then you know your problem is your puck building. If it still gushes then the built in grinder is your prime suspect. In this case, re-box the machine and swap it.

Let us know how you get on.


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## Aardgoose

Hi,

Back again, have been playing the last few days with no success.

I'm using Has Bean's Costa Rica Sumava Monte Llano Bonito beans, recently roasted.

I have tried to vary one thing at at time:

1. Tamp (using bathroom scales), between 10kg and 30kg.

2. Weight (between 15g - 22g).

3. Grind (the BE has a stepper between 1 and 15).

I have taken Obnic's advice above and put the finest grind into a bowl then spooned 18g into the portafilter. I then tamped to about 20kg making sure it was level. The coffee did come out but took about 1 minute to start and then I got about 10-15cc before the machine shut off. It dribbled at first then had a slight pour. No gushing. The pressure gauge was at 'high'. I then did the same at grind level 4. Sour.

I'm going through beans like they are going out of fashion!

You wouldn't believe that of all things I have a PhD in chemistry.









Adam


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## Aardgoose

Other info:

For anything above a grind level of '4' with a tamp of ca. 20kg I get 10s before shot starts then maximum 15 seconds after to shot end. If it is ground coarser I get 10s before shot starts, a gush then 8s later it is done.

Output varies usually 40-50g for 16g input.


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## MWJB

Can you fit 22g in the basket, tamp it (with reasonable force, just enough to squeeze out the air) and have the Razor shave nothing off the puck?

You are still varying too many things.

Dose 15g. Look for 45g in the cup...don't bother with any shot that doesn't hit 45g in the cup. Adjust grind finer until the sourness is diminished.

If you only get a small dribble in the cup it will be sour, because you have not pushed enough water through the puck to wash out more than 18% of your dose weight.

I believe you have a PhD in chemistry, but I don't think you are applying any logical, methodical process to what you are doing. Remove all variables except grind setting.


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## Aardgoose

Hi MWJB

Not to be rude, but I've been working on this machine for a while. I am only changing one thing at a time:

1. Go through the same coffee same weight, same tamp, different grind. Measure input and output and time.

2. Go through the same coffee, different weight, same tamp, same grind. Measure input and output and time.

3. Go through the same coffee, same weight, different tamp, same grind. Measure the input and output and time.

I *have* set all variables apart from grind setting. That's why it is so frustrating!


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## Mrboots2u

Time isn't something to judge your shot by , taste it . Time from when you hit the button to when you hit the button again , When the coffee stat or stops isn't key . The total shot time isn't key unless it's on the bonkers 1 minute or 10 seconds . Sure time and note it , but what is important is dose ( set it as suggested ) brew ratio ( again set it as suggested ) then adjustment of grind via taste .


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## MWJB

Tamp is not a variable, don't try to slow the shot with more force. Just tamp with enough force that you feel the resistance from the puck & stop, make it consistent.

Dose is not your main variable, if you want say, 30-45g out, keep to 15g in. Too deep a puck will make proper extraction hard.

Don't make things more complicated by introducing time, it's not a time trial, it's making a nice drink. That will happen when, at your brew ratio, at a consistent tamp, your grind size will coincide with sufficient extraction (it probably will coincide with a reasonable time target, but as we haven't done it yet, we don't know what that target will be).

I understand you are frustrated, but in the last post you list 3 methodologies (it's imposible for us to identify every permutation & the result of each shot from that), if you listed one methodology with just grind setting, taste assessment, recording shot time, we may have you hitting a reasonable shot in a handful of goes. You have obviously put in a lot of effort, but let's now focus that effort...you will get there.


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## Aardgoose

I am tasting, I assure you. Otherwise the whole exercise is moot.







All I get is sour at the moment.

I will try MWJB's suggestion but I get the feeling I've already done it.


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## urbanbumpkin

It's a good point, my shots don't start to come through till after 15 sec.

I agree with the above, keep the dose set at say 15g and adjust the grind.


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## MatthewBw

As someone for whom the BE is my first decent coffee machine and a newb I found that the 20kg tamp was maybe a little harder than I found worked for me. It's probably blasphemous but have you tried the razor that comes with it. It's gives a good indication if you're short or overdosed in the puck.

I found once I got the dose right, the grind was all that needed changing to get the pressure in the right place.


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## Obnic

The Sage BE manual reckons the double basket takes 18-20g.

It also predicts preinfusion taking about 8-10 seconds.

Adam seems on track for dose and preinfusion time but then everything speeds up. This sounds like vicious channeling to me.

If it's not a distribution problem, I wonder could the grinder be so new it's not yet seasoned and affecting flow rate adversely?


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## urbanbumpkin

Obnic said:


> Adam seems on track for dose and preinfusion time but then everything speeds up. This sounds like vicious channeling to me.


Good point, It might be worth doing WDT (see below link) for the short term to rule this out.






The OP could also post a clip of their shot prep and one of the actual shot. Just a thought.


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## urbanbumpkin

Hi Adam, it is incredibly frustrating when first starting out. I remember going through a kilo of beans without pulling a decent shot. My issue was Channelling (amongst many of the other things). Hang on in there.


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## scottgough

Aardgoose said:


> Other info:
> 
> For anything above a grind level of '4' with a tamp of ca. 20kg I get 10s before shot starts then maximum 15 seconds after to shot end. Output varies usually 40-50g for 16g input.


Is it me or are you not looking a million miles off the mark here? 25sec ish to pull 1:3 brew ratio at grinder setting 4. Probably a bit quick, but not horrendously so. I'd be moving the Grinder to 3 or 2, 16g in 48g out, and see what you get, by your previous comments you should be around the right area


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## MatthewBw

I have found I have to jiggle the puck/handle a bit as it grinds to stop it all being on one side. I do this as I noticed the sage rep doing so when she demoed to me.


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## MediumRoastSteam

MatthewBw said:


> I have found I have to jiggle the puck/handle a bit as it grinds to stop it all being on one side. I do this as I noticed the sage rep doing so when she demoed to me.


That's called distribution. If you are not familiar with the term, I'd advise you to research on it, as this is, in my opinion, one of the most important steps in getting the puck ready.

Not all grinders cater for distribution very well. However, there are techniques to compensate for this, such as the Weiss Distribution Technique, aka: WDT.

The idea is that the grinds should fall evenly and have the same density in the basket before tamping.


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Distribution is always criminally overlooked imho (and by me for a good period of time as well).

If the density of ground coffee throughout the puck is not equal, then the water will always take the easiest path, and if its particularly badly distributed, this could mean the water all going through one little channel in the puck, which kinda obviously gives you hideously underextracted and quick. One of the sites I used for reference in the very early days called this a "blonde gusher", and I think this is a hilarious description of it









As said before, WDT, tapping etc are all pretty much essential really. Tamping will not redistribute for you, even if you use a NSEW kind of tamp.


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## Aardgoose

Hi Everyone,

An update - with many thanks to the people who PM'd me with suggestions.

After I went to work on Thursday my partner decided that I was being a misery guts and took the Sage BE back. I am espresso-machine-less but may jump back into the pool later with possibly a Rancio Silvia.

Even though I have tried other beans on the 'run-up' to the HasBean roast (cheapo "Lazy Sunday" followed by "Tesco Finest java" followed by "Lavazza") with no luck I found at least part of the problem. A member here suggested I do a cafetiere or other cup from the beans so I got myself a Porlex, set to click 7 and made a cup of the HasBean roast.

It was utterly *vile*. Far too acidic. I had to pour it away and have thrown the rest of the beans. I have one bag of their beans left: "Finca Limoncillo" and that gives an okay-ish filter, though I'll try Aeropress later.

My apologies if I seemed a little incendiary, I was going bananas here and was wired on caffeine for about five days. I have learned a lot just from this discussion and will be back onto the forums when I take the jump again.

Best wishes

Adam


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## Mrboots2u

No worries - best not to keep repeating stuff you don't like . It's always horses for course as I really enjoyed the Limoncillo from has bean. One man's vile is another man's delicious . Before you jump back on ask for machine advice as the Silvia can be more frustrating than a sage. In the end it's rarely the machine but a combination of technique and finding things that suit your personal preference .

Hope to see you enjoying coffee of what ever variety you choose soon .

Plus offer beans up you don't like would be my advice . Someone will enjoy them , throwing them in the bin is a real shame and waste .


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## MWJB

Aardgoose said:


> A member here suggested I do a cafetiere or other cup from the beans so I got myself a Porlex, set to click 7 and made a cup of the HasBean roast.
> 
> It was utterly *vile*. Far too acidic. I had to pour it away and have thrown the rest of the beans. I have one bag of their beans left: "Finca Limoncillo" and that gives an okay-ish filter, though I'll try Aeropress later.


Chucking the beans away was perhaps a bit of a knee jerk reaction & a sad waste. Simply brewing in a French press is still subject to the same variations as other brewing methods (in fact it is probably easier to be more consistent with drip filter & a solid recipe), "far too acidic" suggests this was also under-extracted. As with espresso, it also helps with brewed coffee if you explain your recipe/method - making coffee is nothing like making a cup of cocoa or orange squash, we're not simply diluting, or making a suspension, we are actually making the flavour balance of the coffee in the cup.

You mention "filter", what filter method are you using(as opposed to an unfiltered immersion like French press)? I tend to think you will still be finding the same issues with the Aeropress with fast brew times.

Please, please, please be specific about your individual brew & shot parameters, otherwise we have no idea what you have done & where to look next.


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