# Small footprint machine with quick startup for home use sub-€1000?



## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

After settling on a grinder (Niche Zero) and breaking it in a bit with french press and moka pot coffee, my itch for a home espresso machine has returned and I hope that you guys can offer me some pieces of advice 

My needs are:



Small footprint (my kitchen counter is only 42 cm deep and 51 cm in height).


Warm up enough for good shots within 15 min. in the morning (optimal warm up time can be a bit longer for evening and weekend use).


Make 1-2 double shots 2 times daily (milk drinks only for the occasional guest).


Budget is ~1000 euros at most.


Based on this, I'm thinking a single boiler PID machine should suffice. I currently have my eyes on the following machines:



Lelit PL41TEM - €400

Pros: Small boiler and group for quicker heat up, PID, price


Cons: 57 mm group, needs accessory upgrades, plastic parts



Bezzera BZ09 - €850

Pros: Heated group head, small copper boiler


Cons: No PID, needs accessory upgrades



Bezzera Unica PID - €1100 (version with wooden knobs/handles)

Pros: PID, design and wooden parts, E61 quality


Cons: E61 warm up time, size may challenge my counter



Sage Dual Boiler - €1000

Pros: Overall convenience and speed, price can be good on sales


Cons: Looks a bit gimmicky, too many electronics, heard it produces shots lacking in mouthfeel?



Lelit PL62T - €1150

Pros: Small footprint, PID, design, E61


Cons: Large HX boiler and long warm up times



Probably haven't thought of everything, so I will appreciate it if you can offer some comments on these machines or suggestions for other machines I should have a look at 

Not sure if I will be happy with the cheaper machines or find the need to upgrade soon after. Waiting for a potential Black Friday deal on any of the more expensive machines is a possibility.


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

Have you considered a La Pav? It's ready in 5 mins and has a small footprint.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Nothing more satisfying than hearing the coffee hit the cup rather than that horrible pump noise.

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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Jacko112 said:


> Have you considered a La Pav? It's ready in 5 mins and has a small footprint.


 No, I haven't really considered a manual machine as I figured it would be too difficult to use?

Also, how does it heat up in 5 mins, does it not require the group head to be fully heated the same as semi-automatic machines?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

It's just like boiling a kettle

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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

joey24dirt said:


> It's just like boiling a kettle
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Exactly this.

I have mine paired with the Niche and to be honest, it's such a simple effective set up that once mastered it works. Yes I'd love something bigger & shinier but the worktop doesn't allow for it and I only drink espresso, so no need to change it. Minimal electronics in the La Pav too so less to go wrong.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

I will keep that in mind. As far as I gather, the Pavoni tends to give more clarity and not the deep/rich flavors that I prefer. Is this your experience as well?

At the moment I'm gravitating towards the Bezzera BZ09 due to build quality and semi-quick heat up. Also it has an internal adjustable thermostat, so missing the PID may not be so bad. Found a decent deal on it for €700.

Don't think an E61 is good for me after all, the power consumption for heating it up twice a day for just 1 cup make these much more expensive than they are on paper, unfortunately.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I think you'll get similar results, the bz09 will be easier to fill as with a pavoni you have to let it cool down a bit first but even the europiccola can do three drinks before refilling. Obviously depends how much space is an issue

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

For heat up time its hard to beat any of Sage's machines. The dual boiler for instance is 3mins. That extends to maybe 15min to get the portafilter hot but for some reason I don't understand while that has made a difference on other machines I've used it's doesn't especially when I use a bottomless portafilter but tried it with the standard as well.

Lakeland sell them with a 3 year warrantee.

I'd say taste has more to do with the grinder used than some aspects of the machines. Normal HX types are likely to give a different taste to dual boiler machines. Dual boiler can suffer with temperature drop while a shot is being pulled down to cold water going into relatively small brew boilers. PID helps, Sage add some preheating as well via passing the water through a small HX style heat exchanger in the steam boiler. They are also easy to descale. Many machines need a spanner.

 One bug bear that probably also applies to some others. Used pucks sticking to the shower screen. At some particular dose weight of grinds this usually doesn't happen but the easiest fix is a very short pulse of the shot button.

The machines tell people when to descale. I would suggest setting the machine for one grade harder than the test strip suggests. I use 2 grades harder. The best option for all machines in some areas of the country is to fill with certain brands of bottled water.

John

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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

I tend to favour lighter fruitier roasts, not a huge fan of deeper choc flavours. It's not something I've ever thought off tbh pairing the machine with the beans.

Perhaps others could comment on this @joey24dirt?


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

Regarding those "deep, rich shots": I would agree with @ajohn that the grinder may very well be key in this aspect (along with the ability of a machine to brew at comparatively cooler temperatures for the non-light roasts). I get a less clear, richer, more viscous shot from my Knock grinder than I do from my Niche with finely ground beans. It's not huge but it is a desirable difference when using medium to medium-dark roasts. (ps @dopefish I've had very rich, deep shots from a Pavoni.)


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

You won't beat a Sage for start up time. As others have said, get a decent, stable machine and the grinder will make more difference to the taste. I don't own a Sage, but the dual boiler especially, isn't the toy it may appear to be and some very experienced users are happy with theirs . Most criticism is around either a perceived or real lack of availability of parts for repair and servicing.

You could use a timer for any of those machines to warm them up ready for use. If you're not willing to do that, I'd rule out any E61. If you leave it alone and don't flush, you'll be looking at a good 30 mins warm up time.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dopefish said:


> Don't think an E61 is good for me after all, the power consumption for heating it up twice a day for just 1 cup make these much more expensive than they are on paper, unfortunately.


 Just out of curiosity how much power do you believe it takes and how much do you think it costs per day?


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Just out of curiosity how much power do you believe it takes and how much do you think it costs per day?


 Assuming the machine runs at 1500W while heating for 30 minutes twice a day all days of the year, that would amount to about 550 kWh @ 180 euros where I live. But feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken!

Half that if the heat up time is halved I would guess.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Yes, but it won't be heating for 30 mins, just the amount of time it takes to boil a full kettle and then 6 or 7 sec bursts every minute or so.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

PID may kick in and out more often but you catch my drift.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dopefish said:


> Assuming the machine runs at 1500W while heating for 30 minutes twice a day all days of the year, that would amount to about 550 kWh @ 180 euros where I live. But feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken!
> 
> Half that if the heat up time is halved I would guess.


 It depends on the size of the boiler. Small boiler with 300ml in and 1200w takes about 2 1/2 min to heat up and that particular one was insulated. Others could be roughly scaled from that. A minimum time for the group head of say an E61 style thermo syphon system to heat up is circa 20min or more. Portafilter a further 10min longer. There are reports of some similar systems take noticeably longer. Once the boiler gets to temperature one way or another the power intake is kept at a level to maintain that temperature and just make up losses.

Other systems where the boiler is mounted directly onto the group head reduce the time to heat it.

The Sage DB use a relatively low mass group head and it's separately electrically heated. The mass of E61 style group heads is one of the factors they use to maintain brew temperatures. The 300ml machine I mentioned has a stainless case so that radiates heat. Sage's cup warmer is plastic so never really gets hot. There are other differences in it as well.

I'm not pushing Sage because choice is down to a user. All I would say is that if things are looked at technically they are not an easy machine to upgrade from. I'll be using an ECM Hx machine along side mine shortly and I will be very interested in how that does certain things. HX because some people prefer them so I want to try one. It will be interesting to see how long that takes to heat up to a usable state - E61 group head.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dopefish said:


> Assuming the machine runs at 1500W while heating for 30 minutes twice a day all days of the year, that would amount to about 550 kWh @ 180 euros where I live. But feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken!
> 
> Half that if the heat up time is halved I would guess.


 I have a Minima with E61 and 800ml brew boiler on for 17 hours per day every day, it uses 1.17 kW of power each day (measured over months), or 427 kW every year. Your electricity is obviously very expensive where you live perhaps you are on a pre pay meter, but it's certainly above what I thought the most expensive European countries were per kWh. So for a machine on only twice per day to make a couple of coffees, your usage is unlikely to be as high as you fear.

An E61 group radiates approximately 60 - 65W, which is the effective heat lost from an E61 group for a boiler temperature of 107C. The system takes around 3 minutes to heat the brew boiler and of course while the group is warming up it's sinking away heat, but not fast because it's not hot, so it's not radiating 70W until about 15-20 minutes in. The main energy consumption on warm up is the specific heat of all the components of the machine involved with brewing. The Minima has a 1200W heating element (although element power is irrelevant), so this is likely to be less than 200W before the system hits steady state heat loss at 30 minutes. Assume you have the machine on for 1 hour after that. It's likely that your consumption will be 230 per day x 2. This is 460W per day or 168 kW per year (and this would be a worst case scenario).

Also remember that in winter this waste heat from the machine will simply save exactly the same amount of heat from your home heating bill, but not in summer.

This would be for a Minima running brew boiler only, steaming is steaming and it would depend on how many milky specials you make and whether your chosen machine is an HX. HX machines will cost a *little *more to run, but not a huge amount more.

I hope this has been informative and useful in helping you make a choice of machine.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Thanks for all the replies, informative indeed.

It would be interesting to see how the power consumption is the first 15 vs 30 minutes after power on. I would expect the heat up period to account for a big part of the daily consumption. If it only runs at full power for the first, say 5 minutes, then the difference between an electrically heated group head and an E61 may not be as bad as I thought.

Maybe, with a timer, the E61's are not out of the question after all. I'm curious though, I get that the Sage wins on convenience, but no one has commented on the Bezzera BZ09. Is this a sign that it's not a good machine? Or is it better value to spend 50% more for E61 and PID? The Lelit Mara is obviously well liked, but don't know if I will ever be needing the HX.

Also, I appreciate the suggestions for a La Pavoni, but I don't think I want to go down this path.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

If this helps after being on for 2 hours switched on from cold my Minima used 250W in total during the whole 2 hours..


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> If this helps after being on for 2 hours switched on from cold my Minima used 250W in total during the whole 2 hours..


Out of interest, have you ever compared energy usage between a machine that's switched on to warm up a couple of times a day & one that's left on all day?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> DavecUK said:
> 
> 
> > If this helps after being on for 2 hours switched on from cold my Minima used 250W in total during the whole 2 hours..
> ...


 Of course, otherwise I would not know my numbers. It's also part of the calculations required to size heating elements and boilers (or at least it is for me). When I specced the Duetto I used the specific heat and rough heat loss calcs. I worked out what the E61 group radiates and verified by experimentation. I did not sit idle for 16 years writing biased sales documentation as many may think  . The figures I gave are the recorded data for my Minima.

I do realise on forums there is a great temptation to feel people make things up.... but I try not to.

P.S. It's always cheaper to switch the machine off when not using it...but always more convenient to keep it on all day. The cost difference often is not that great and in the UK where people pay between 12-15p per unit a cost of 14-20p per day to keep an espresso machine on for 17 hours per day seems very small in the scheme of things.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Of course, otherwise I would not know my numbers. It's also part of the calculations required to size heating elements and boilers (or at least it is for me). When I specced the Duetto I used the specific heat and rough heat loss calcs. I worked out what the E61 group radiates and verified by experimentation. I did not sit idle for 16 years writing biased sales documentation as many may think . The figures I gave are the recorded data for my Minima.
> I do realise on forums there is a great temptation to feel people make things up.... but I try not to.
> 
> P.S. It's always cheaper to switch the machine off when not using it...but always more convenient to keep it on all day. The cost difference often is not that great and in the UK where people pay between 12-15p per unit a cost of 14-20p per day to keep an espresso machine on for 17 hours per day seems very small in the scheme of things.


Don't think I've ever accused you of plucking numbers out of the air or writing a biased review! Just thought you'd be one of the best people to ask since you have done the experimentation.
The way I see it, machines spend more energy while heating up than they do while ticking over at temperature. There has to be some point where multiple warm up cycles throughout the day surpasses the cost of just letting it idle between uses.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Don't think I've ever accused you of plucking numbers out of the air or writing a biased review! Just thought you'd be one of the best people to ask since you have done the experimentation.
> The way I see it, machines spend more energy while heating up than they do while ticking over at temperature. There has to be some point where multiple warm up cycles throughout the day surpasses the cost of just letting it idle between uses.


 Whoa, don't get me wrong, it wasn't aimed at you, I know you have never accused me of anything....

Now that's hopefully cleared up... your point about multiple warm up cycles...



> There has to be some point where multiple warm up cycles throughout the day surpasses the cost of just letting it idle between uses.


 Sadly no this never happens, it's *always cheaper *to switch the machine off when you are not using it. In fact, odd though it may seem, if you switched the machine on and off every 30 minutes, the energy usage will come closer to, but never exceed the energy usage of a machine left on all the time.

This thought experiment will help you visualise this:



We take a machine and switch it on for 10 hours and it uses a total of 800W to maintain a steady insulated brew boiler temp (with an E61 attached) of 107C


We switch the machine on and off twice for 1 hour each time for the same period and it uses less


We switch the machine on and off once every 5 or 6 seconds or 7,200 times in 10 hours (exactly the same as a PID does to the heating element to maintain the temperature, look at the little red dot) - it uses 800W...it can never use more maintaining that same steady temperature.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I thought that the BZ09 is an HX machine but with a relatively small boiler. The Mara is as well and more akin to the BZ10 but there are several Mara models.

John

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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

ajohn said:


> I thought that the BZ09 is an HX machine but with a relatively small boiler. The Mara is as well and more akin to the BZ10 but there are several Mara models.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 The BZ09 should be a single boiler with 0.5 L boiler, the BZ10 is HX with a 1.5 L boiler.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dopefish said:


> The BZ09 should be a single boiler with 0.5 L boiler, the BZ10 is HX with a 1.5 L boiler.


 Generally when the spec's for machines are looked at an HX machine will show a single boiler. Dual boiler machines will show 2 boilers, one for brew and the other for steam that will be at a similar temperature to the single boiler in an HX machine.

There are exceptions such as changing the temperature of the boiler according to if it's going to be used for brew or steam. One way to reduce the temperature from what is needed for steam down to brew is by letting off steam or waiting. As the BZ09 has steam button it may be one of these types. I think one of the small Gaggia's is as well. I assumed it's HX. There isn't much information about on it at all. Even the parts list doesn't really make it clear but it looks like it has 2 differently rated thermal cut outs so it may use the boiler temperature change method.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Generally when the spec's for machines are looked at an HX machine will show a single boiler. Dual boiler machines will show 2 boilers, one for brew and the other for steam that will be at a similar temperature to the single boiler in an HX machine.
> There are exceptions such as changing the temperature of the boiler according to if it's going to be used for brew or steam. One way to reduce the temperature from what is needed for steam down to brew is by letting off steam or waiting. As the BZ09 has steam button it may be one of these types. I think one of the small Gaggia's is as well. I assumed it's HX. There isn't much information about on it at all. Even the parts list doesn't really make it clear but it looks like it has 2 differently rated thermal cut outs so it may use the boiler temperature change method.
> 
> John
> -


BZ09 is SBDU (single boiler dual use) just like a Gaggia Classic or a Rancilio Silvia to name 2 of the multitude.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

So what you imply is to stay away from SBDU units, even high quality ones? I was under the impression that HX machines require little more effort to get the temperature right, but can they be used as a "single boiler", i.e. no cooling flushes and the likes, while taking advantage of the larger boiler for better temp stability? Will a PID be of benefit on a HX machine when not using the steamer?

If so, I may be looking at a decision between the Lelit PL62 and Bezzera BZ10.

These posts always end up being very informative, thank you all.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

dopefish said:


> So what you imply is to stay away from SBDU units, even high quality ones? I was under the impression that HX machines require little more effort to get the temperature right, but can they be used as a "single boiler", i.e. no cooling flushes and the likes, while taking advantage of the larger boiler for better temp stability? Will a PID be of benefit on a HX machine when not using the steamer?
> If so, I may be looking at a decision between the Lelit PL62 and Bezzera BZ10.
> These posts always end up being very informative, thank you all.


SBDU can be fine (I use one myself) especially if you don't make many milky drinks at a time. It's just a question of understanding a respective machines strengths & weaknesses and whether they'll impact you too much.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The modification people go for on the Gaggia machine is adding PID. Really it needs DaveC to comment on some aspects of brew temperature. When a machines brew temperature is controlled by a thermostat it has hysteresis and that will be several degrees C. This leads people to talk about temperature surfing. They might for instance only pull a shot just at the point where the brew heating turns off. That way the temperature profile used for the brew is consistent. The temperature in a brew boiler drops as cold water is pumped in to cause water to flow. How much colder depends on the size of the shot and the size of the boiler. A thermostat is either on or off. PID changes the heater output at a rate that depends on the temperature difference between what it's set at and the temperature the water in the boiler is at. That helps.

The problem with heating water is that the heater needs to be hotter than the water it's heating. Without PID it's likely to be a lot hotter so carries on heating when it's turned off. PID aims to control the power input to it so that when it's close to it's set temperature the temperature of the element is close as well.

I have used a machine with a thermostat and a small boiler and no indication on if the heating is on or off. Some would add a light themselves but I found if I use the machine the same way every shot it gave consistent results. The time it took for me to prepare the portafilter for the next shot allowed the boiler temperature to recover. Then comes the question of how much the change in brew water temperature affected the taste of the shot. That to be totally honest is a tricky subject because other factors affect taste.

HX machines tend to use a presurestat. Different animal. It too will have hysteresis but in PSI. I would suspect that results in better temperature control than a typical mechanical thermostat.  DaveC may correct me if I am wrong. Temperature change in it's boiler is relatively low when a shot is pulled as no cold water goes into it. I had been told that some HX machines don't need a flush but when I asked which ones later no answer. Some HX machines are fitted with PID.

Then comes dual boilers. Independent control of both temperatures. The thermostat only machine I have used is a dual boiler. A PID version has been produced but I wouldn't be surprised if it isn't available or is extremely expensive. Having used it I wont say it makes crap coffee without PID. It doesn't if used sensibly. The idea of owning an espresso machine is usually to produce nice coffee at home and people do that eventually with all sorts. Others for ever throw £ notes at it. The web has a lot to do with that. It would be very interesting if taste changes were independently checked along with technique and bean changes as people progress but that information is not available.

One problem with many machines is descaling and buyers being unaware of their likely need to do it. It often needs spanners as they don't generally fit drains on the boiler.  That may need a spanner anyway. The alternative is rather expensive filters or bottled water.

John

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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> dopefish said:
> 
> 
> > So what you imply is to stay away from SBDU units, even high quality ones? I was under the impression that HX machines require little more effort to get the temperature right, but can they be used as a "single boiler", i.e. no cooling flushes and the likes, while taking advantage of the larger boiler for better temp stability? Will a PID be of benefit on a HX machine when not using the steamer?
> ...


 Yeah, and with my consumption rate of 1-3 cups a day, 90-95% being milk-free, I would expect a SBDU to be a good match. Yet it seems likely everyone advises against it and suggests going for a HX machine (referring to the general consensus I get from searching the web).



ajohn said:


> The modification people go for on the Gaggia machine is adding PID. Really it needs DaveC to comment on some aspects of brew temperature. When a machines brew temperature is controlled by a thermostat it has hysteresis and that will be several degrees C. This leads people to talk about temperature surfing. They might for instance only pull a shot just at the point where the brew heating turns off. That way the temperature profile used for the brew is consistent. The temperature in a brew boiler drops as cold water is pumped in to cause water to flow. How much colder depends on the size of the shot and the size of the boiler. A thermostat is either on or off. PID changes the heater output at a rate that depends on the temperature difference between what it's set at and the temperature the water in the boiler is at. That helps.
> 
> The problem with heating water is that the heater needs to be hotter than the water it's heating. Without PID it's likely to be a lot hotter so carries on heating when it's turned off. PID aims to control the power input to it so that when it's close to it's set temperature the temperature of the element is close as well.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for the walkthrough. I think I got an decent idea of how the different types of machines work. What I don't have is a good understanding of the differences in workflow between a HX and SBDU when making only espresso. But I guess that varies a bit between manufacturers?

I understand that a PID is much more precise than a thermostat, and thus superior at maintaining a stable temperature. The Bezzera BZ models have a heated group set @ 90C with a thermostat. I would expect that to produce a better heat stability than the basic Gaggias and Silvias. Also, I've read the that BZ10 HX does not require cooling flushes by design, but have been unable to find any explanation why.

I live in a very hard water area (~30 dH or ~500 mg/L), so tap water and even filters are out of the question, I will have to use bottled water.

I've come to realize it's really difficult to choose a machine and that I probably won't be able to get everything I want from my budget


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think John has covered it well.....

The main thing is most (not all) machines can make a good shot...some do it much more regularly and easily than others. There are some machines that are not great I won't mention names because I sometimes see them for sale on the forum. I have testing quite a few machines and there are some that just can't be used in a way to even half consistently get a decent shot and are best avoided, some just can't produce a good shot full stop (but those are rare).

So if this helps:

*Proper dual boilers (not tiny pretend dual boilers, or badly designed ones)* = Consistently good shots more often obtained and easier for unskilled users and all coffees

*Well Designed HX (pressurestat or PID/Electronic temp control = *Takes more skill and work to use, but once adapted to can produce good shots for a reasonable range of coffees.

*Well designed SBDU (with PID) = *as with dual boiler above if boiler is above 650 ml. steaming not often as convenient, sometimes not as good do to completely full boiler. Requires manual boiler refill and cooldown period after steaming. So a slightly more complex procedure for use.

SBDUs with thermostats only, or cheap electronic (non PID control) = avoid e.g Old Isomac Zaffiros etc..


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

The Sage DTP would fit the last category (SBDU single boiler) but also does auto-cooling after using the steam wand, so the water *should* be back to brewing temp pretty quickly and accurately. I believe its pretty good at maintaining a constant temperature over multiple shots but I flush before the first to get the portafilter up to temp, and I think it may be slightly nicer on the second cup sometime, perhaps because the whole machine is up to temp (or I could be imagining that...)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

pgarrish said:


> The Sage DTP would fit the last category (SBDU single boiler) but also does auto-cooling after using the steam wand, so the water *should* be back to brewing temp pretty quickly and accurately. I believe its pretty good at maintaining a constant temperature over multiple shots but I flush before the first to get the portafilter up to temp, and I think it may be slightly nicer on the second cup sometime, perhaps because the whole machine is up to temp (or I could be imagining that...)


 That's a thermoblock machine or as they have introduced another type I usually call them thermothingies. The block is easiest to describe. A stainless metal tube in a block of aluminium that is electrically heated using PID in Sage's case. The tube I understand is a coil. The temperature of the block is controlled to heat the water for either brew or steam and also hot water but that comes out of the steam wand on a Duo Temp Pro. It comes out of a different tube on the Barista Express that uses the same arrangement.

There is a delay between switching back and forth between brew and steam. Heat up times are very quick. Once water isn't flowing some boils off in the tube. This means that they need regular descaling but its a pretty quick thing to do.

John

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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

ajohn said:


> That's a thermoblock machine or as they have introduced another type I usually call them thermothingies. The block is easiest to describe. A stainless metal tube in a block of aluminium that is electrically heated using PID in Sage's case. The tube I understand is a coil. The temperature of the block is controlled to heat the water for either brew or steam and also hot water but that comes out of the steam wand on a Duo Temp Pro. It comes out of a different tube on the Barista Express that uses the same arrangement.
> 
> There is a delay between switching back and forth between brew and steam. Heat up times are very quick. Once water isn't flowing some boils off in the tube. This means that they need regular descaling but its a pretty quick thing to do.
> 
> ...


 The thing is, it automagically dumps cold water back through the block to cool it after finishing with the steamer, so (as i understand it) unlike the gaggias, you dont have to temp surf to do a second brew


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

ajohn said:


> I had been told that some HX machines don't need a flush but when I asked which ones later no answer. Some HX machines are fitted with PID.
> 
> -


 The Fracino Ariette, Classico, Heavenly and Cherub don't need a cooling flush. In fact the head engineer who I spoke to was insistent that a cooling flush was a design fault by other companies.

I think I'm right in the Londinium doesn't need one either? I read Rocket ( newer models )was another, but a few people on this board disagree with that.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

pgarrish said:


> The thing is, it automagically dumps cold water back through the block to cool it after finishing with the steamer, so (as i understand it) unlike the gaggias, you dont have to temp surf to do a second brew


 I've only used the Barista Express - my first "sizeable" espresso machine. On both machines the temperature control could well be better than Gaggia in fact I expect it is but without actual measurements it's not possible to know and it isn't a trivial job to measure what it is.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

cold war kid said:


> The Fracino Ariette, Classico, Heavenly and Cherub don't need a cooling flush. In fact the head engineer who I spoke to was insistent that a cooling flush was a design fault by other companies.
> 
> I think I'm right in the Londinium doesn't need one either? I read Rocket ( newer models )was another, but a few people on this board disagree with that.


 When I get my ECM running I'll do the obvious - try it and find out. I think that there is so much around stated about brewing coffee some of which I find dubious that's the only way. I can see that an HX machine will produce some sort of brew temperature profile so the question is does it suite the beans I use. Flushing unless carefully controlled will alter that.

I have a Gem too but unfortunately need a functional garage to do what's needed. That's going to take a while. Bought because it's basically sound, an auto and the price was rather nice. I expected it to be junk when I went to look at it. The water tank is. It does work, just don't fancy drinking out of it.

John

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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

I'm now fairly certain I should go with a SBDU, the Bezzera Unica PID is currently first on my list, but a cheaper DB might also be up for debate.

Started looking at the ACS Minima as this seems to be well-received on these forums and it's "only" 250€ more. It's a bit too big for my intended spot, but I have another place it can fit if I rearrange some things in my kitchen. Same for the Unica after all.

Any other suggestions for good SBDUs below the 1000€ mark?


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

Oh dear, looks like I'm about to take the plunge on a DB out of my original budget. This is what happens when you post here ?

Gotten a decent offer on a Minima at 1250€. But after starting looking at other dual boilers, the Lelit Bianca is really tempting as well. Prefer the design and seems like the upgrades and accessories are well worth the price difference. Not sold on the manual flow profiler, though. Does anyone have the dimension of it without the water tank? Can't find those anywhere.

Is there any difference in part quality between the two?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dopefish said:


> Oh dear, looks like I'm about to take the plunge on a DB out of my original budget. This is what happens when you post here ?
> 
> Gotten a decent offer on a Minima at 1250€. But after starting looking at other dual boilers, the Lelit Bianca is really tempting as well. Prefer the design and seems like the upgrades and accessories are well worth the price difference. Not sold on the manual flow profiler, though. Does anyone have the dimension of it without the water tank? Can't find those anywhere.
> 
> Is there any difference in part quality between the two?


 If you have a Minima offer at that price I would say take it and add profiling to the Minima later if you want. That said, I have reviewed both though, so read both reviews and it may help you decide. I also own both machines, although the Bianca I have is a prototype...but close enough to the production machine.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

You should be aware that the Minima does not have the slow pressure ramp up of a standard e61 group. Also, the boilers need to be thrown away should the elements fail and as they are made by a third party may not be available in the future.


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## dopefish (Aug 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> If you have a Minima offer at that price I would say take it and add profiling to the Minima later if you want. That said, I have reviewed both though, so read both reviews and it may help you decide. I also own both machines, although the Bianca I have is a prototype...but close enough to the production machine.


 I have read your reviews and I'm leaning towards to Bianca. If I'm paying that much I'd rather get the machine I feel the most excitement towards.

The offer I got on the Minima is from one of those Italian exporter/importers, and I'm not convinced that the level of costumer service they will provide is satisfactory. The Bianca would be from one of two small domestic dealers that carry Lelit.

Oh well, time to think again. Wish there was a nice SBDU to be had, but the market doesn't seem geared towards those.


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