# Hello



## Angelo

Just wanted to introduce myself as I am new to the forum.

I live in West Wales and my name is Angelo.


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## EspressoD

Welcome to the forum


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## mike 100

A warm welcome to the forumAngelo


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## Earlepap

Welcome welcome.


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## chimpsinties

Hi, What have you got and what are you trying to get out of the forum?


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## Angelo

2 Generations of Italian Cafes! Not me though I became a Photographer and Teacher. As a kid I worked in the cafes manually pulling coffee on big machines that had soul!

At home I just have a small De Longhi and a collection of Stove tops inc. a Brilkka.

I came by the forum looking for info on Costa and the way they make Espresso which I have an issue with.


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## lookseehear

Welcome! We all have an issue with how costa (in general) make espresso, so you'll fit right in.


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## JohnnieWalker

Ooooh, that's harsh!

Well ok, Costa may not be the pinnacle of coffee experiences, but in my opinion they're the best of the high st chains and I actually really like their coffee.

I think the biggest problem would be with the staff ( no offence to any Costa staff ) , I think with any huge company, finding employees who really love their job can be difficult.

Big companies focus so much on profits that wages and careers probably aren't at the top of their priorities.

There is so much competition amongst the big coffee chains I suppose they try and operate as cost efficiently as possible.

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## lookseehear

Sorry johnnie! I was mainly talking about the skill of the 'baristas' rather than the beans (which I haven't tried at home).


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## Angelo

I am more concerned with the actual way the draw an espresso - they tamp the coffee then put two cups under the spouts and the draw until they both have the quantity they determine us espresso - they then throw away one of the cups - surely this means they have drawn too long and do introduced a bitterness to the cup.

It would seem sensible to me if the drew two Ristrettos and then poured both into one cup so creating an Espresso.

I have emailed them and seem to have been fobbed off - so here I am starting a campaign for Costa to man up and make Espresso!


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## MikeHag

Not sure I agree with your suggestion


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## Angelo

Why? What is it that you dont agree with?


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## chimpsinties

They are probably pulling a single into both glasses then. It's just what they do when someone asks for a single. They're trained to always pull doubles so they have to throw one away.


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## Earlepap

I think that's what most places do. That's why it seems a bit of a cheek to charge more for a double than a single.


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## chimpsinties

Earlepap said:


> I think that's what most places do. That's why it seems a bit of a cheek to charge more for a double than a single.


That's a good point, I'd never though of it like that. Maybe you should just hang around the counter and if they're about to chuck it say, "I'll take that off your hands"


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## Angelo

But it's not a true Espresso! I have been telling them - they are drawing it twice as long as needed so introducing bitterness.

I have formally complained but have not heard back from their head office. I wouldn't have complained but got fobbed off twice by customer services so got annoyed.


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## chimpsinties

What makes you think it's not an espresso?

They are probably putting about 18g of coffee in and drawing 2x 1oz shots out then chucking one away and serving the single to the customer. That's all correct. If you asked for a double espresso you'd get both in one cup.


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## mike 100

Had a ristretto (double) recently at a Costa and was pleasantly surprised as it was pretty good, didn't know about them always pulling doubles and throwing one away if just asked for a single, suppose its to much messing about to change from one to another.


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## Angelo

But even a double Ristrettos is not right with them because again they throw one away and so draw twice as long - it's better but not Ristretto.

I feel a viral campaign evolving.


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## chimpsinties

So you've actually asked for a double ristretto and seen them pull it that way throw one away?


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## Angelo

I will check that one to be sure but as they use the same cups and the only reason they throw away is because one cup cannot accept the flow from both nozzles I suspect they do - I will go into my local one during next week and see. As an experiment I will also ask if they will draw a single Ristretto and then ask if they will sell me the other wasted one - putting the two together should then give me a proper Espresso.

What do you think. Surprised no one else noticed this - I have mentioned to lots of Costa Staff and they look at me stupidly and say that is how they do it!


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## MikeHag

When you say they draw twice as long, what do you mean? Are they pulling two 2oz shots from one 14g dose, or two 1oz shots? The first would be wrong, the second would be perfectly correct.


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## Angelo

They are pulling two 2 oz shots - they have to because they throw one cup away!


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## Earlepap

Isn't this a bit like going into a McDonalds and expecting a nice thick, red in the middle, well aged, hung, waygu beef burger? I mean, if their practices are wrong fair enough, but you're never going to get a dog's balls good espresso in Costa are you? Even if they do whatever it actually is that you want them to do, it's still going to be stale old beans pulled someone that doesn't give a crap. 9/10 times anyway.


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## Angelo

Earlepap said:


> Isn't this a bit like going into a McDonalds and expecting a nice thick, red in the middle, well aged, hung, waygu beef burger? I mean, if their practices are wrong fair enough, but you're never going to get a dog's balls good espresso in Costa are you? Even if they do whatever it actually is that you want them to do, it's still going to be stale old beans pulled someone that doesn't give a crap. 9/10 times anyway.


I take the point but at least in Maccy D you get what you expect - when they say what size the meal is then it is what you get - they don't stretch the burger out more!

My point with Costa, as I tried to tell them, is that they are missing a trick - they could improve favour, strength and save wastage with one simple change of operating mode.


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## chimpsinties

Angelo said:


> They are pulling two 2 oz shots - they have to because they throw one cup away!


I think your reasoning might be a bit off there. It doesn't make sense. You say they have to because they throw one away? What?! What makes you think they're pulling 2x 2ox shots? and not 2x 1oz shots which would be much more likely and what a lot of cafes/restaurants do because then the don't have to change the amount they're dosing. They just only give you half.

Maybe you have just found the crappest Costa in the UK?


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## Angelo

I have been to many Costas and they do the same.

Ok let's focus on Espresso they draw twice the amount of water through the coffee and throw half away to leave one cup with the correct amount of liquid - I suggest that this cup has half the best part of the draw and then a lot of bitter water dumped on top.

Am I not right in believing that the foundation of a good coffee taste comes through in the first part of the pulling - pull too much liquid and you increase the bitterness for a bean and grind etc.

Look I am no expert but I was brought up in an Italian household and the family had many cafes with big old machines do I have pulled a few coffees in my lifetime.


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## mike 100

As I said I recently had a double ristretto at Costa, and watched the whole process, one cup only and nothing thrown away, my God daughter has just started working at a Costa so I will ask her what goes on.


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## Angelo

But one cup doesn't fit under the spouts so did they give you a big cup? Or did they have the only single spout in the UK OR have they actually listen to me but not said anything!

I would love to find out how your daughter was taught to do this. Let me know please.

If there are differences then I can alert them to this and perhaps get a half decent coffee.


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## Glenn

Welcome to Coffee Forums UK Angelo

An interesting debate but not one that can be solved by 1 person alone.

It would be great to understand the variables. Weight of grinds and weight of liquid extracted.

In most cases I have seen 2 singles pulled and one thrown if not required (or purchased)

Pulling 2 doubles (4 oz or thereabouts) from a single portafilter and extraction does seem odd.

Where is your local Costa?


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## MikeHag

If they are pulling two 2oz shots then I agree with you. But I'm confused by your issue with throwing away one of the shots. They should throw both away!


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## mike 100

espresso cup-- two spouts it pours into one cup same as my machine at home


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## Angelo

Well something is different then because the cups I have been given in at least 6 Costas both in Wales and England have not been put under the two spouts.

Re the comment about size of shot - that is not the only issue - its about how the extract is released - is is not straight live but a curve.


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## chimpsinties

Can we just clear some things up please. Angelo, will you answer the following questions.

-How much liquid do you think they're pulling into each cup?

-Are you ordering a double espresso or an single when they throw one of them away?

-How long is it taking them to pour the drink?

-How much coffee are they putting in the portafilter to begin with?


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## Angelo

chimpsinties said:


> Can we just clear some things up please. Angelo, will you answer the following questions.
> 
> -How much liquid do you think they're pulling into each cup?
> 
> Whatever a standard Espresso is in Costa - its a small cup - I assume it to be 2ozs
> 
> -Are you ordering a double espresso or an single when they throw one of them away?
> 
> Always a single - I am from Italian decent - the notion of a double doesn't exist!
> 
> -How long is it taking them to pour the drink?
> 
> Long enough for 4 ozs of liquid to come out.
> 
> -How much coffee are they putting in the portafilter to begin with?


This one I can answer - I think I hear two clicks from the dispenser.


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## chimpsinties

Just because you don't drink a double doesn't mean everyone else doesn't either.

They pull a lot of coffee's in a day. They also use a double for most of their milk based drinks. For this reason they will have their grind set up to extract a double from their portafilter with a double basket in. This will be 2oz from about 15g of coffee grinds. They will be allowing 1oz to go into each cup if you ask for a single. This means they don't have to use a single basket or grind any differently. You are getting your single espresso which is about 1oz which is what you asked for and what you paid for. As you don't need the other half of the double they just made they just throw it away. They can't leave it until someone else asks for a single because it'll be cold. Yes it's wasteful but they're probably making about 400% profit on every drink anyway so they don't really care. It's probably not very often people ask for singles and like I said earlier, most of their other drinks are based on doubles.

At the end of the day, without asking them to allow you to measure their cups it's going to be hard to give you a satisfactory answer here.


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## Angelo

Ok I have just been checking some facts - fact is that in Espresso coffee is released in 3 basic stages - firstly the black flavour followed by the crema which should be caramel coloured - it is after this point that extraction should be finished because what follows are the coffee oils that contain the bitter taste and the flavour diluting clear liquid.

The amount of time you extract for will affect the final flavour. If you have to make a 2oz coffee - extract 2ozs of liquid not 4ozs - in each 2ozs there will be only half of the best bits - half the taste and half the crema and then at least 1oz of bitter water.

That's my thoughts and also thoughts in done books I have on the subject.


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## Tryfan

My head hurts.


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## MikeHag

I think, Angelo, that nobody is disagreeing with you regarding how much espresso beverage should be extracted from a double dose. It seems to me that there is just doubt as to whether you are correct that Costa are pulling 4oz. What makes you think it is 4oz?


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## SlowRoast

To clarify, we pull 2oz from 14g in 20 seconds, the crema isn't included. The only baskets available to use (excluding the pod baskets) are double and triple, if someone asks for double, we simply take a single from one side and let the rest run down the drain. Triple shots are 22g for 80ml of espresso, apparently. The machine seems to adjust this as it sees fit though.


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## Angelo

SlowRoast said:


> To clarify, we pull 2oz from 14g in 20 seconds, the crema isn't included. The only baskets available to use (excluding the pod baskets) are double and triple, if someone asks for double, we simply take a single from one side and let the rest run down the drain. Triple shots are 22g for 80ml of espresso, apparently. The machine seems to adjust this as it sees fit though.


Thanks for being brave and joining this - it will be helpful.

Sorry if I am confusing people - its the 2 or 4 oz thing that needs a bit of clarifying.

My understanding is that an Espresso is 2oz a Ristretto is 1oz and a Doppio Espresso is 4oz

Ok this not about the vine of grind used initially although of course it will have an impact - it is about what part of the complex mix is released from the coffee grind at what point. Splitting the mix means it takes longer to reach an Espresso in each cup - the one you buy and the one they throw away - this has to mean that you cup then contains one third black tasty coffee, one third crema and one third bitter water - however if they did not throw away the second cup but instead captured the two spouts into one cup then the machine could be stopped after the black and crema therefore leaving the bitter weak eater out - giving a fuller more robust but flavoursome espresso.

Infact you could pull the 2ozs in 10 seconds then instead of 20 - as I was trying to point out - its over extracted at present.


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## MikeHag

Are you a barista yourself, Angelo? Some of the things you have just said suggest you don't have a full understanding of the extraction process, despite what you have read. For example, your 10 second extraction comment is very wrong, my friend.


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## Tryfan

Tryfan said:


> My head hurts.


Ahhh, the joys of reading while tipsy; posting pointless rubbish!



Angelo said:


> will go into my local one during next week and see. As an experiment I will also ask if they will draw a single Ristretto and then ask if they will sell me the other wasted one - putting the two together should then give me a proper Espresso.


I didn't realise you could do that...? I thought a Ristretto was more than just a volume thing and therefore putting two Ristretti (is that right, or should it be Ristrettos?) together would make a double Ristretto?


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## mike 100

Don't you start...


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## JohnnieWalker

This thread has made me smile!

I know that's not a very helpful reply.

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## Angelo

MikeHag said:


> Are you a barista yourself, Angelo? Some of the things you have just said suggest you don't have a full understanding of the extraction process, despite what you have read. For example, your 10 second extraction comment is very wrong, my friend.


I was being facetious my friend. Am I a Barista - no just grew up in an Italian cafe father owned and had an Italian Grandfather who had about 15 cafes. I worked in one for years from the age of 10 into my early 20s back in the 60s and 70s. Always drunk coffee and I like good Espresso. Don't know if that counts.

The 10 and 20 seconds thing is laughable really but I do know that the more you put in the cup the weaker and more bitter it becomes - so if you fill two small cups instead of one then a part of each cup contains poor coffee - convince me otherwise please.


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## MikeHag

But do you mean two cups at the same time, or one after the other? At every Costa I've seen they have used 2 spouts, hence both cups are filled at the same time. This means that both cups have the same flavour/extraction profile. They both have part of the early extraction, part of the mid extraction and part of the final extraction. There is no need to combine them. Does that not convince you?

BTW my grandfather worked at the shipyards. That doesn't make me Captain Pugwash


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## Angelo

How on earth can that convince me - totally missed the point.

By the way I have never suggested I was a Barista. Seems like they are few and far between.

I think I will knock this one on the head - too many people missing the point.


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## chimpsinties

That's because you're somehow managing to say a lot and not get your point across.

What is your problem????

Is it the amount of time they're pulling the shot for? Is it the amount of liquid going into each cup? Is it the amount of coffee being used in the first place? What? Please for the love of coffee (and my sanity) explain yourself.

Because as far as everyone on here is concerned even if their coffee isn't the best they're not actually doing anything wrong by the sounds of it.


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## MikeHag

He said it.

I'm out too. Lost cause.


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## Angelo

Ok one last go then I am out of here

I think MikeHag has cracked it - he is absolutely spot on in recognizing that the two cups the make contain an amount of the initial then an amount of mid flow and then an amount of bitter water. They then throw away a cup and give me a cup that COULD, if they put it into one cup, have more of the first part more of the second part and as it will be then up to the amount NONE of the bitter water.

I am sorry but if that doesn't make sense then let's call it a day - I actually like Costa - it is a shame they cannot change their process to provide an espresso as it could be - that's it that's all - its no big deal to do it.


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## funinacup

I really think you're missing an obvious point here Angelo.

A single espresso (~30ml or ~1oz) can be extracted from a single basket with circa 7g of ground coffee in it.

Two single shots (~30ml each/~60ml/2oz combined) can be extracted from a double basket with ~14g of ground coffee in it.

A double espresso (~60ml/2oz) can be extracted in the same way as two singles, but just collected in one cup instead of two.

In theory, single shots extracted from a double basket in two separate cups should each be the same strength and quality as a single shot extracted from a single basket.

Sorry for the lamens terms but I thought I'd have a crack at this!!

Basically what I'm saying is: order a tea next time.


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## Angelo

I hear what you are saying and the theory sounds plausible - doesn't translate to the taste though.

I actually order single Ristretto in Costa because of this but hey ho


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## JohnnieWalker

I'm confused.

Forgetting all the single, doubles etc, what difference does it make if when pulling a shot you let all of it pour into one cup or, using a double spout, you allow half to pour into each cup.

Unless I'm missing something?

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## SlowRoast

Hmm, do you mean how the blonde portion of the extraction is allowed to keep going into your drink? The reason behind this is that Costa are so very up tight about dose and extraction volumes, no one is allowed to push stop until the preset time or volume has ran. If a shot blondes, channels, you name it, it has to run until the machine says so. Costa states 60ml from 14g for a double espresso. So to give a general example, grind is incorrect by their standards and 14g is going to give 40ml of nice sweet espresso, then there's the another bitter 20ml after the blonding point, because Costa's espresso standard is 60ml for a double, you'll get the bitter portion ran into your cup(s), whether the person behind the machine knows this will make it bitter or not.

The machine will make very small adjustments to shot volumes when the grind is incorrect, especially with the three shot, but nothing significantly noticeable.

When I make a drink for myself at work, I use 2 1/2 pulls from the Mazzer, and put one cup under the two spouts and stop it manually when the bitter blonde portion comes through, usually 40ml of espresso from about 16 - 17g of coffee.

If a customer orders a single ristretto, and it is timed for 15 seconds, a lot of the time you may (or may not) see someone hand out a LUNGO, where even the preset double shot button will give a shorter shot! Once again, that's the "time for 15 seconds" rule. Meaning 10 second double shots are probably being pulled for a fair while.

You can ask for your drink however you wish. I'm sure if you want to watch from the otherside of the bar and say when to stop I'm sure they'd be happy if you ask nicely and make a bit of small talk. We get people asking for use to run shots to the point they nearly go clear, why, I don't know, but we do it.

It's obviously a good thing that Costa like to keep everything standard and controlled, which makes for easy diagnosis of poor shots, but more often than not, this strictness can ruin more drinks than it saves.

Hope this helps.


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## Angelo

SlowRoast said:


> Hmm, do you mean how the blonde portion of the extraction is allowed to keep going into your drink? The reason behind this is that Costa are so very up tight about dose and extraction volumes, no one is allowed to push stop until the preset time or volume has ran. If a shot blondes, channels, you name it, it has to run until the machine says so. Costa states 60ml from 14g for a double espresso. So to give a general example, grind is incorrect by their standards and 14g is going to give 40ml of nice sweet espresso, then there's the another bitter 20ml after the blonding point, because Costa's espresso standard is 60ml for a double, you'll get the bitter portion ran into your cup(s), whether the person behind the machine knows this will make it bitter or not.
> 
> The machine will make very small adjustments to shot volumes when the grind is incorrect, especially with the three shot, but nothing significantly noticeable.
> 
> When I make a drink for myself at work, I use 2 1/2 pulls from the Mazzer, and put one cup under the two spouts and stop it manually when the bitter blonde portion comes through, usually 40ml of espresso from about 16 - 17g of coffee.
> 
> If a customer orders a single ristretto, and it is timed for 15 seconds, a lot of the time you may (or may not) see someone hand out a LUNGO, where even the preset double shot button will give a shorter shot! Once again, that's the "time for 15 seconds" rule. Meaning 10 second double shots are probably being pulled for a fair while.
> 
> You can ask for your drink however you wish. I'm sure if you want to watch from the otherside of the bar and say when to stop I'm sure they'd be happy if you ask nicely and make a bit of small talk. We get people asking for use to run shots to the point they nearly go clear, why, I don't know, but we do it.
> 
> It's obviously a good thing that Costa like to keep everything standard and controlled, which makes for easy diagnosis of poor shots, but more often than not, this strictness can ruin more drinks than it saves.
> 
> Hope this helps.


Thank you - you have got it. I don't know the details of the way their machines work.

I will pop into my local one soon (it's newish and I don't got there often) and see what can be done - best choose a quiet time though!

Sanity restored ?


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## mike 100

Glad thats sorted then!

Now when I go to Starbucks!...........


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## Angelo

Well it's kind of sorted - now to get Costa to change their procedure!


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## funinacup

Good luck.

Sent from my GT-I9000 using Tapatalk 2


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## MikeHag

I'm sure that when they receive your crystal clear explanation of the issue, they will immediately change their company-wide standards to suit your individual palate.


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## Earlepap




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## Angelo

MikeHag said:


> I'm sure that when they receive your crystal clear explanation of the issue, they will immediately change their company-wide standards to suit your individual palate.


I am ever hopeful - phew lucky I didn't give you the complicated explanation then. ;-)


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## SlowRoast

Glad to have cleared things up







And yeah, Costa wouldn't change for the queen of England...

What a cute cat!


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## Angelo

SlowRoast said:


> Glad to have cleared things up
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> And yeah, Costa wouldn't change for the queen of England...
> 
> What a cute cat!


We will see - I will have to get my people talking to their people. Never know they may introduce a new product with my name on it and I will of course agree and accept the royalties ;-)


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