# Review of the Sage (Breville) Dual Boiler



## gmason

Pocket-lint have done an overview of the Sage (Breville) Dual Boiler:

http://www.pocket-lint.com/news/124259-sage-dual-boiler-hands-on-the-heston-blumenthal-coffee-machine

Interesting to see how this will sell in High Street retailers.


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## Mrboots2u

It's had mixed reviews ( at real opposite end of the spectrum ) in the USA on other coffee related sites ,I think In part due to some perceived reliability issues. It's seems to have been a real love it or hate it machine with the usual " they make toasters not coffee machines comments " . I'm sure someone will get one of here at some point , be interested to see how it fares. Personally I am always a little wary of celebrity endorsed wares .

Anyone had a play with one yet? At £1200 it doesn't see to be as competitive as it is in the USA

The coffee grinder is meant to be gash for espresso tho


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## gmason

Would tend to agree with your observations. Additionally, celeb labels don't always have a great product lifecycle. Perhaps the market here is aspiring Nespresso customers...


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## Mrboots2u

In fact sure its way cheaper in the usa. Must be paying a bucket to use his name. I was expecting it to be the inbetween price of cherub to entry db. Sad thing is how many high street retailers will actually have a staff member that can demonstrate its features etc.


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## CoffeeTech

Hi gents,just thought I would drop in a response from the aftersales side of the New product.in relation to previous issues encountered abroad,Sage have been sensible and got that all important aftercare from a proper coffee company.we have worked with commercial and domestic units for many years and are keen to put stop to issues with their products.any questions you want to ask just write back.

Thanks


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## Glenn

Hi CoffeeTech

Advertising packages are available. Please click here to explore further


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## jeebsy

Thought this was generally well received in the US but the main flaw was that only the manufacturer can descale it?


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## Dylan

Not quite sure I would call that a review, more of a plug. Just kinda tells you what it is.

Would be good to know what the grinder is that they pair with it. Honestly the spec sheet on this machine is fairly impressive, and if you ignore the name (Breville) it could be a very nice machine, it really does look the part.

It would be nice to see a full impartial review of this machine from someone who knows what a machine should do and can properly test temp stability, repairability etc.

That price sure stings like hell tho, more than double the American price.


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## jeebsy

Yeah people were saying if this could come in at £700, or even under £1k, it could fill a big space in the market but at £1200 it's got some serious competition.


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## cold war kid

jeebsy said:


> Yeah people were saying if this could come in at £700, or even under £1k, it could fill a big space in the market but at £1200 it's got some serious competition.


Agreed. They've really missed an opportunity here.

It's £1200 on John Lewis website which is pitched right in the middle of a lot of established brands ( although many are HX models).

If it could have come in at £850 it would have been a much more interesting proposition, but up against the like of the Rocket it's going to struggle.

Why such a massive price hike for a UK market? Having a celeb endorsement is fine for a £60 set of knives, but a £1200 espresso machine? Seriously?


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## cold war kid

Does anybody know why John Lewis have dropped the Fracino models?


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## Geordie Boy

They didn't sell them instore, just online, and it really wasn't hard to find a much cheaper price elsewhere. Therefore I'm guessing a lack of sales


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## Dylan

cold war kid said:


> Agreed. They've really missed an opportunity here.
> 
> It's £1200 on John Lewis website which is pitched right in the middle of a lot of established brands ( although many are HX models).
> 
> If it could have come in at £850 it would have been a much more interesting proposition, but up against the like of the Rocket it's going to struggle.
> 
> Why such a massive price hike for a UK market? Having a celeb endorsement is fine for a £60 set of knives, but a £1200 espresso machine? Seriously?


Unfortunately it indicates its aimed at those people who know very little but have rather a lot.


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## Mrboots2u

D_Evans said:


> Unfortunately it indicates its aimed at those people who know very little but have rather a lot.


Probably might explain why Jl don't do fracino anymore . I imagine they might have been hit for a few returns from people shelling out money and expecting a super shiny Nespresso machine , only to discover it ain't that simple ........


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## CoffeeTech

D_Evans said:


> Not quite sure I would call that a review, more of a plug. Just kinda tells you what it is.
> 
> Would be good to know what the grinder is that they pair with it. Honestly the spec sheet on this machine is fairly impressive, and if you ignore the name (Breville) it could be a very nice machine, it really does look the part.
> 
> It would be nice to see a full impartial review of this machine from someone who knows what a machine should do and can properly test temp stability, repairability etc.
> 
> That price sure stings like hell tho, more than double the American price.


Gents I have just picked up a dual boiler to test and review over the weekend along with grinder,any questions or queries please don't hesitate to ask.


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## cold war kid

CoffeeTech said:


> Gents I have just picked up a dual boiler to test and review over the weekend along with grinder,any questions or queries please don't hesitate to ask.


Didn't you say your company was going to be employed by Breville to carry out work for them on their behalf? If so, how are you going to be able to provide an unbiased, impartial review of any of their products? Surely anybody with connections is going to give a sales pitch.


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## SimonB

cold war kid said:


> Didn't you say your company was going to be employed by Breville to carry out work for them on their behalf? If so, how are you going to be able to provide an unbiased, impartial review of any of their products? Surely anybody with connections is going to give a sales pitch.


A bit harsh surely, would you rather he didn't contribute?


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## CoffeeTech

cold war kid said:


> Didn't you say your company was going to be employed by Breville to carry out work for them on their behalf? If so, how are you going to be able to provide an unbiased, impartial review of any of their products? Surely anybody with connections is going to give a sales pitch.


I did say that yes but at the end of the day when I come home I'm still a bloke who enjoys proper coffee from a good unit.so you can take my comments as you see fit.i've not used the unit yet and it will have to be decent to compete with machines I already have owned.I like coffee too much to think about putting my name to a product if it isn't what it cracked up to be.


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## Mrboots2u

cold war kid said:


> Didn't you say your company was going to be employed by Breville to carry out work for them on their behalf? If so, how are you going to be able to provide an unbiased, impartial review of any of their products? Surely anybody with connections is going to give a sales pitch.


Perhaps they Could give Glenn or another impartial forum member a model to review for a period of time ( as londinium did ) , this would guarantee a fair and objective review . Plus it has been suggested that coffee tech look at the advert rates for the site .


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## Kyle548

Mrboots2u said:


> Perhaps they Could give Glenn or another impartial forum member a model to review for a period of time ( as londinium did ) , this would guarantee a fair and objective review . Plus it has been suggested that coffee tech look at the advert rates for the site .


This would be my suggestion too.


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## Dylan

CoffeeTech-

Your review would be very much appreciated, but any reviewer that has a commercial interest at heart has to be taken with a grain of salt. Don't get me wrong, most of us here are more than capable of seeing through a review that is bias, and a review would surely help your actual customers as well.

However I have to agree with the other members, the only way to truly be sure the review is impartial would be to invite a local and experienced member of the forums along to take notes and review the machine. Many of the members here have equipment which can measure temperature stability, pressure, and can test ease of repair by taking a look at the internals among other things. It is of course very much up to you, but it would be very interesting for myself and in fact, the internet at large, to see a truly un-bias/fair review of this machine. On the other hand this machine is really directed at a market that would be swamped by such an in-depth review, and I am not sure anyone who knows much about it would pay the eye-popping UK price.

As you are also representing a commercial interest it would be best to check with the mods here before posting reviews and notes about your site, they will let you know what is considered advertisement and as such where you should contribute to the forum if you are using it to direct business toward your site.


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## Dave Gubbin

jeebsy said:


> Thought this was generally well received in the US but the main flaw was that only the manufacturer can descale it?


The model we are launching here now includes the ability for a user Descale. Simply has an Allen key port to both the brew and steam boiler. This features was not on the initial machine launched in the USA


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## Dave Gubbin

The grinder paired with the product is the Smart Grinder. The USA price is 1199 ex tax, 1199 inc in the uk with installation service. Smart grinder is 199. Both here in a matter of days


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## Dave Gubbin

If anyone is keen to review it, PM me and I'll loan one. I'll have a scace here in a few days that we can demo with too, but it can't loan that out.


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## Dave Gubbin

I'd love to offer the unit for a review. Please PM me. Or PM me and I'll let you know where you can have a play.


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## Dylan

The Breville Smart Grinder would also need a proper review, but the basic assumption is that it wouldn't be great for espresso. A proper assessment rather than an assumption would obviously be preferable however. It looks very nice, but that is never an indicator of true quality.

It is good of you to offer a unit for review, hopefully an experienced member will come forward to do so. It would help to let us know where you're based.

I would re-iterate that you need to talk to the forum mods before discussing the models you stock and what they offer, you are by all means being helpful supplying information about the machine that is different to what we know about the US model. But it is touchy ground, and you are best to make sure you have the mods blessing.


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## Mrboots2u

Yep talk to glen ( admin) re advertising first , and whether he would think it is appropriate to do or have a review on here .

Nice to see a genuine offer of loaning a model out tho


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## Charliej

If there are no objections from Glenn or anyone else I would be very interested in a loan of a machine to do a review, not so interested in a loan grinder to review as I have used my Father's Smart Grinder whilst on holiday in Australia and already have an opinion on it based on some beans I took with me and from his local roaster.


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## Dylan

What was your opinion on it, if I may ask?


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## cold war kid

SimonB said:


> A bit harsh surely, would you rather he didn't contribute?


I didn't mean to be harsh. I just asked a question. Maybe it came across a bit blunt. I've got to agree that if they were to loan a machine to Glenn and he was willing to review it that would be good for the community.


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## coffeechap

I didn't think it was that harsh, any review has to be independent or it is not worth anything, so someone who is going to be in partnership with the company is not going to be unbiased because that would be suicide... Let someone else on here do it, but follow the advertising guidelines please.


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## Dave Gubbin

Who wants to do a review?


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## jeebsy

As much as i'd love to, someone with more experience of DB machines should do it so they can make a proper assessment.


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> As much as i'd love to, someone with more experience of DB machines should do it so they can make a proper assessment.


Yep , would be good to have it benchmarked to another DB, or the u sees have experience of the DB.


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## Dave Gubbin

Mrboots2u said:


> Yep talk to glen ( admin) re advertising first , and whether he would think it is appropriate to do or have a review on here .
> 
> Nice to see a genuine offer of loaning a model out tho


Glen, I'll PM you. You need to get a review machine from me. The BES920UK models I just received are at the appropriate wattage (higher than aus and USA), just means a 3min heat up in the morning, but it's the model you should assess the temp controls on. It will also have the user descalable boilers. As we don't run e61's we modeled up a naked and scace. I'm a week away from getting those from Aus, but would really like to offer those.

lastly, if anyone else is keen for an open book look at the machines on the 6th Nov in Islington, with little fuss, please let me know. I'll have a few dissected models so you can see what's inside and plenty of machines to play on.

Obviously I work for Sage (just want to clearly put that out there)


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## Kyle548

I'd love to too, but I'll bow to those actually qualified.

But it might be good to have someone who has never used a DB or a big machine to test it and see how it compares to what they have.

Let's face it, if you have an already established DB, then you will not be buying this machine and your not really the target anyway.


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## Dave Gubbin

Kyle548, if you want a review, I'm happy to sort it. Depending where you live I can sort a short term loan or a visit to where we have a few now. If anyone is near Islington over the next fortnight I can easily and quickly sort something.


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## jeebsy

I am looking to upgrade to a DB in the not too distant future...(someone who knows their stuff should do it).


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## Mrboots2u

Kyle548 said:


> I'd love to too, but I'll bow to those actually qualified.
> 
> But it might be good to have someone who has never used a DB or a big machine to test it and see how it compares to what they have.
> 
> Let's face it, if you have an already established DB, then you will not be buying this machine and your not really the target anyway.


True but at £1200 be good to for the reviewer to know how it bench marks against the machines it is comparable too ( other db ) , as opposed to those that it isn't .( does that make sense . ) like how long it takes to steam , temp stability compared to other db , rather than a single boiler, as in theory it should kick any sv boiler ass.


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## Dave Gubbin

Jeebsy PM me and I'll tell you where you might see one so you can try before you buy.


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## Glenn

Dave has been in touch. Will make contact tomorrow

I'm keen to review this machine, which I just happened to be discussing with a colleague earlier today


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## Kyle548

Mrboots2u said:


> True but at £1200 be good to for the reviewer to know how it bench marks against the machines it is comparable too ( other db ) , as opposed to those that it isn't .( does that make sense . ) like how long it takes to steam , temp stability compared to other db , rather than a single boiler, as in theory it should kick any sv boiler ass.


That's true enough....

To be honest, I'm happy to just let someone who knows what they are doing try it.

I have no aspirations to buy a 1200£ machine.


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## Mrboots2u

Glenn said:


> Dave has been in touch. Will make contact tomorrow
> 
> I'm keen to review this machine, which I just happened to be discussing with a colleague earlier today


That's great , look forward to it


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## jeebsy

Glenn said:


> Dave has been in touch. Will make contact tomorrow
> 
> I'm keen to review this machine, which I just happened to be discussing with a colleague earlier today


Good news - look forward to reading how you get on.


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## xiuxiuejar

More expensive than the expobar!!!!


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## Dylan

xiuxiuejar said:


> More expensive than the expobar!!!!


Indeed, so if its trying to play with the established big boys at least we can now get a review from someone who knows if it deserves to be there.

I think everyone is skeptical at best, but be good to give it a fair chance.

Just want to say thanks to Dave for getting involved in this, very good of you to involve yourself so quickly with this community and trust the judgement of the members here. Especially after the initial scepticism about the machine and your own intentions. Good on you


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## Dave Gubbin

SDB and Smart grinder should be at Glenn's house about now.

We'll see what comes of it.

I'm hoping he's enjoying some decent espresso this weekend.


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## Gangstarrrrr

Dave Gubbin said:


> SDB and Smart grinder should be at Glenn's house about now.
> 
> We'll see what comes of it.
> 
> I'm hoping he's enjoying some decent espresso this weekend.


That was quick!


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## Mrboots2u

Will be interested to see how the smart grinder fairs doing espresso.


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## jeebsy

I'm hopefully going to get a shot of one tomorrow


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## Glenn

Both Sage Grinder and Machine arrived very promptly.

Full credit to Dave for his service so far which has been exemplary


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## Glenn

The review thread will be here

Once I have reviewed the machine I will open the thread to Q&A


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## jeebsy

Went to the John Lewis pop up in Islington today to have a look at this.

The barista there said this is the first 'domestic' 'gold standard' dual boiler machine. Not sure exactly what that means!

The machine looks pretty smart and definitely looks like something that's been designed for a home kitchen. Body is a mix of stainless steel panels and plastic which looks decent.The features on it also indicate it's been designed with the home user in mind: it's got a built in timer; heats up in three minutes (!); the machine reads your water hardness and an electronic display tells you when it needs descaled; easy access to boilers for descaling; simple controls for manual pre-infusion; volumetric control etc. All in all a pretty impressive bit of kit. The barista did milk for a couple of macchiatos and it took a bit longer than expected. I've got an Oscar which is a bit of a steam beast though.

Didn't pay much attention to the grinder.

It's very much a home machine with the timer, cleaning/scale sensor, rapid warm up etc. I don't have any experience with DB machine so don't have any point of reference but it seems a really nice machine and think the additional features do give it that bit of extra value. It'll be interesting to see what Glenn makes of it.


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## The Systemic Kid

jeebsy said:


> Went to the John Lewis pop up in Islington today to have a look at this. The barista there said this is the first 'domestic' 'gold standard' dual boiler machine. Not sure exactly what that means!


Neither do I. Would have thought with HB's name on it, it relies on liquid nitrogen and molecular science to extract shots.


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## Geordie Boy

Any idea what the engineer home set-up involves? I don't think it's a bad idea to make sure that people know how to use a machine properly (it'll probably help reduce returns) however it obviously adds a little to the unit cost


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## Glenn

The first shots have been made and the first few jugs of milk steamed

So far I'm getting on with the machine quite well.

Loads of great features for new baristas

I'm looking forward to getting into the programming a little tonight and tomorrow night too


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## Neill

Like the looks of this machine, more modern feel than some of the other offerings (although they look great too). Will be interested to hear how it performs against other double boilers.


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## Dave Gubbin

They'll do a few things in the home set up. Tune the grinder to the machine, grind size and dose, run through cleaning, from purging the steam wand to descaling and everything in between. Pour a few shots to show what it should look like in respect to the flow and pressure gauge feed back, then make a few Capps. They'll also be given

Some education on beans guiding the user to search for freshly roasted coffee.



Geordie Boy said:


> Any idea what the engineer home set-up involves? I don't think it's a bad idea to make sure that people know how to use a machine properly (it'll probably help reduce returns) however it obviously adds a little to the unit cost


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## Dave Gubbin

When hen you dig a little deeper you'll find a slayer type feature where you can manually control the duration of the pre-infusion before releasing to the OPV controlled full pressure. That's all controlled by holding down the manual button thru extraction then releasing.



Glenn said:


> The first shots have been made and the first few jugs of milk steamed
> 
> So far I'm getting on with the machine quite well.
> 
> Loads of great features for new baristas
> 
> I'm looking forward to getting into the programming a little tonight and tomorrow night too


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## Glenn

Thanks Dave

I'll be sure to have a play with this feature

Out of the box it's running nicely


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## coffeechap

Be interesting to see how it stacks up against the expobar dual boiler


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## Lighty

It will cc

I was all set to join the group buy ... think I still might

Really annoying thing is the sage = us breville 900xl, and its $1200

So we are getting the old 1:1 conversion yet again

Grrrrrrr

Sorry just having a morning rant

:-D

I need to tap my us contact up for the iPad Air to vent !!


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## Dave Gubbin

Just received a scace from Aus. Here's a quick vid if interested.


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## Mrboots2u

Interested to see the feedback on the smart grinder , I see Glen has indicated that he will be adding shims to it ?


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## garydyke1

I think sub £1000 and it would be a more attractive proposition.


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## xiuxiuejar

I will reserve judgement until it has been properly tested and people have owned the units for 1 year plus. In the USA, everybody loves the machine when they first buy it, but their have been a lot of complaints about reliability and breakdowns.


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## GlennV

Lighty said:


> Really annoying thing is the sage = us breville 900xl, and its $1200


Not really. I think the Sage is the new BES920. The original BES900 has been available for some time as the Gastroback 42636, 1070 euros delivered to the UK from amazon.de.


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## Glenn

The model I am testing is the BES920

Have you noticed a fluctuation in pressure during the extraction (between 7.5 and 9 bar?)


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## Mrboots2u

garydyke1 said:


> I think sub £1000 and it would be a more attractive proposition.


Agree in between the fracino's and the brewtus would clean up potentially. But Heston' s royalty fee would preclude that .


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## Charliej

I remember when I was last in Australia my Dad had just bought his Smart Grinder and we had a hell of a job getting the grind right for his Sunbeam espresso machine until it was shimmed. At that point I didn't have much basis for comparison to anything else other than my MC2. The shimmed Smart Grinder certainly ground coffee well enough to make a good coffee from Dad's machine and was easier to make adjustments to it, and to clean and less noisy(no surprises here) than my MC2 it also looks a damn sight nicer on the kitchen counter than an MC2 I was very tempted to bring one back with me, but the lack of customer support and warranty services over here, not to mention the possible excess baggage and customs duty put me off the idea.

I have been speaking to Dave(Gubbin) and may get the opportunity to have a machine and grinder to review myself, from the point of view of someone wishing to upgrade from a more basic machine, it will be interesting to see if this version of the Smart Grinder is any different.


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## Glenn

The Smart Grinder is certainly a step up from the Iberital MC2, less noisy and more repeatable when changing between grinds

Really looking forward to the shim arriving. I'm hoping it will transform the performance


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## Mrboots2u

Glenn said:


> The Smart Grinder is certainly a step up from the Iberital MC2, less noisy and more repeatable when changing between grinds
> 
> Really looking forward to the shim arriving. I'm hooping it will transform the performance


That's good to hear but disappointing it needs shimming to go the whole espresso grind tho .


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## twistywizard

Looks quite promising. I like the idea of the extra like the Shot timer, Auto On function etc all built in. Not a bad looking unit either.

Good to see a large Manufacturer putting this sort of effort into support and getting examples out there for testing as well. It could open up a whole new market where others follow suit if it is succesfull....


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## Spazbarista

Hmmm.....I think I prefer all those sorts of things to be outboard.

Fewer things to go wrong.


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## coffeechap

Surely the grinder should already be sold with shim fitted if it is specifically for an espresso orientated machine


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> Surely the grinder should already be sold with shim fitted if it is specifically for an espresso orientated machine


Yep I don't get this shimming thing, it's either fit for espresso ( as advertised ) or it isn't . Having to mod it yourself after purchase doesn't seem great value .


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## GS11

Thanks for the detailed review glen and look forward to further updates. very interesting reading so far:good:


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## Glenn

My pleasure. I have just this very second switched the machine on for tonights tests

Same grind, through Alex Duetto and Sage the Dual Boiler to see how much liquid is extracted in 28 seconds, along with pressure fluctuation (judged by the needle)

I'm happy with temperature stability at this stage (that's also Thursdays test)


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## c_squared

How did the timer work out Glenn? I can't imagine what it would have been like if it let you down and you had to wait for the...em...3 minute warm up!


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## Dave Gubbin

Hi all, The last thing I would want to do is hide from sending out a shim or two. The calibration of domestic grinders is measured in the fraction of mm's so we gladly mail out a shim kit (simple little washer to sit under bottom burr) if needed. It's a simple mod, one nut. And t's been designed to have easy access to add the shim if need be. We made the call a few years back to allow this easy access.

If anyone ever needs a shim, please PM me.



Mrboots2u said:


> Yep I don't get this shimming thing, it's either fit for espresso ( as advertised ) or it isn't . Having to mod it yourself after purchase doesn't seem great value .


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## Mrboots2u

Dave Gubbin said:


> Hi all, The last thing I would want to do is hide from sending out a shim or two. The calibration of domestic grinders is measured in the fraction of mm's so we gladly mail out a shim kit (simple little washer to sit under bottom burr) if needed. It's a simple mod, one nut. And t's been designed to have easy access to add the shim if need be. We made the call a few years back to allow this easy access.
> 
> If anyone ever needs a shim, please PM me.


Ok that's nice to know , I'm just confused as to why other grinders this size and price ( ish) mignion , mc2 etc wouldn't need such a mod from out of the box , and this might ? It would be great to have a grinder at this price , with these features and functionality that could be recommended as doing a great espresso grind . I'm happy to wait to see what Glenn makes of it shimmed and non shimmed .


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## coffeechap

Dave Gubbin said:


> Hi all, The last thing I would want to do is hide from sending out a shim or two. The calibration of domestic grinders is measured in the fraction of mm's so we gladly mail out a shim kit (simple little washer to sit under bottom burr) if needed. It's a simple mod, one nut. And t's been designed to have easy access to add the shim if need be. We made the call a few years back to allow this easy access.
> 
> If anyone ever needs a shim, please PM me.


Yes but the point is it should be fit to use out the box without having to use a shim


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## Dave Gubbin

Hi All,

if anyone is available on the evening of the 6th Nov to take a closer look inside the unit, please PM me. We'll have plenty of units to play with. A cutaway of the boiler,s hX system and group head element to show all. as with the OPV set up. I just received a scace that I'll have there too. Bring your own beans or use ours.

There may even be a sneaky beer or two on offer.


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## Glenn

Hi Dave

What times will this evening run from/to?. May be able to squeeze in a visit after 1930


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## coffeechap

Why does it not work without a shim?


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## Dave Gubbin

We'll there from 6 till past 9. Just keep me posted as to when you can get there.



Glenn said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> What times will this evening run from/to?. May be able to squeeze in a visit after 1930


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## coffeechap

coffeechap said:


> Why does it not work without a shim?


Is this a really hard question to answer????????


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## jeebsy

I'll try and pop up on the 6th. Same place?


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## Dave Gubbin

Coffeechap. Generally all is good out of the box. But if the want or need is to go finer we designed it to have a quick addition of the shim. It's something we'll be looking at via the white glove install. Happy to send you one for a few days for a review if you like.



coffeechap said:


> Is this a really hard question to answer????????


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## El carajillo

WHY does it need a shim??? Where does the shim fit?? Does it just "drop" in somewhere.Is it that easy to fit for the averege coffee machine buyer? Is it an afterthought or to overcome a problem /deficiency.







YES I WOULD LIKE A DEFINITE ANSWER.


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## Dave Gubbin

Shims are reasonably common for grinders. I'll try and film the process tomorrow for adding a shim (in the office). Until then, the shim is simply a washer that if need be sits under the bottom burr. Simply raises the lower burr.. Easier to show the process rather than explain it.



El carajillo said:


> WHY does it need a shim??? Where does the shim fit?? Does it just "drop" in somewhere.Is it that easy to fit for the averege coffee machine buyer? Is it an afterthought or to overcome a problem /deficiency.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> YES I WOULD LIKE A DEFINITE ANSWER.


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## Glenn

The Smart Grinder (without the shim) has plenty of range using the supplied double walled (pressurised) baskets

A good number of home users may start with these if they don't purchase a grinder straight away. However, when they do, and start to use whole beans they will find the Smart Grinder has a lot of scope for adjustment

I will cover off the Smart Grinder in greater detail on Wednesday

The Sage Dual Boiler machine comes with 4 x 58mm filter baskets

1 x single

1 x double (ridgeless)

1 x single pressurised

1 x double pressurised

As the home barista progresses and ditches the pressurised baskets, they may need the shim adjustment to get the best from the single walled ridgeless filter baskets


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## coffeechap

Dave Gubbin said:


> Shims are reasonably common for grinders. I'll try and film the process tomorrow for adding a shim (in the office). Until then, the shim is simply a washer that if need be sits under the bottom burr. Simply raises the lower burr.. Easier to show the process rather than explain it.


Actually no they are not really common for decent grinders, the mignon, rocky, gaggia MDF and iberital mc2 do not need a shim for use, and these are all in similar price points. In fact not one of the probably 30 grinders that I have right now need a shim.


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## Dave Gubbin

Coffee Chap, I do apologise if anyone's needs a shim to get to their desired fineness. Happy to send you a grinder to check out.


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## coffeechap

Just got to be careful making statements on here, as people really know their stuff! What I don't understand is that if the grinder needs a shim to grind fine enough for use without a pressurised basket, which are really designed for pre ground coffee, then why is it just not fitted as standard or does this inadvertently affect the performance on courser settings?


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## coffeechap

Dave Gubbin said:


> Coffee Chap, I do apologise if anyone's needs a shim to get to their desired fineness. Happy to send you a grinder to check out.


I will take you up on the offer as I could really put it through its paces


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## xiuxiuejar

I've only known cheaper grinders like Cuisinarts and Dualits need this type of adjustment and usually it maked the grind a little less consistant. A grinder at that price should surely be fit for purpose out of the box. It's all well and good putting bells and whistles but surely functionality is more important.


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## Dave Gubbin

It's simply that the calibration point may need to be moved in some cases via the shim. It's only to aid calibration. The effort at the factory (continually) is to ensure that the grinders are calibrated for non pressurised baskets (definitely not calibrated for pressurised. My fingers are crossed that Glenn is happy with the fineness. And I know to bow to the knowledge of the group. I've shimmed up 2 grinders myself (only 2) ours and another brand designed in Aus.


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## Glenn

Will let you know Wednesday evening once shim received and fitted. Look forward to tomorrow's short video


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## coffeechap

As previously stated I will gladly evaluate this grinder just send it out to me.


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## Dave Gubbin

Here's a quick clip of adding a shim if need be. Also gives an indication of what's involved when giving the grinder a thorough clean.


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## Dave Gubbin

Hi All, I thought it might be nice to list the diferences/improvements to the BES900 model seen elsewhere.

(in no particular order)

User descalable boilers - easy access to both boilers from the front of the machine

Hard water program to better indicate required frequency of cleaning

Increased wattage - purley for faster heat up (approx 3 mins)

Adjustable steam boiler temp

Choice of time or flow meter control for extraction volumetrics

Re-design of the groupphead collar/ramps

Razor - post tamp dosing tool

White Glove instal offer

I think that is it.


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## Glenn

Thanks for posting the video Dave

I will replicate this and test as soon as the shim hits my mailbox

Enjoyed a well extracted espresso this morning, and produced another flawless milk. The 3 hole steam tip is a joy to steam with. So soft and gentle but produces a nice microfoam.


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## bignorry

Enjoying reading the review from Glenn ,looking forward to CC's Grinder review.


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## El carajillo

Thanks Dave for making and posting the video so quickly. A couple of points come to mind.

Why can this not be picked up and installed on the production line? It would appear that there is a variation in machining tolerance/or component.It should be a simple task to use a "go" or "no"go gauge to asses if it needs the shim.

How many "average" coffee machine buyers would have a suitable socket/spanner to dissasemble the machine the knowledge or interest even with step by step written instructions.

If I went to buy a coffee grinder and was told I might have to take it apart and add something to make it suitable to grind for espresso coffee ,I would ask what other machine they had that could be used out of the box. Most people "want it now" and expect it to work straight away


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## Dave Gubbin

Hi El carajillo

cant say I disagree with any of your points.

we are currently and continually reviewing calibration on our grinders and barista express (espresso machine with built in grinder). Which is extremely important considering we made the decision to design the grinder with upper and lower limits (despite having the clutch mechanism we made the call to prevent the the occasional user locking burrs by racing to a finest setting out of the box).

But we did decide a few years ago to allow shimming if required. There is no special tool required, pliers will be sufficient. I personally access below the bottle burr this way for thorough cleaning.

But rather than just add a shim on the line, our preference will always be to make adjustments to the production calibration procedure, whilst still having the back up of the shims if required.

Our next step is to review the first production samples that arrive off the boat day after tomorrow. Depending on that QC check, we may shim here prior to distribution.

But we're here if anyone needs assistance post purchase and are obviously putting the White glove Service in place.



El carajillo said:


> Thanks Dave for making and posting the video so quickly. A couple of points come to mind.
> 
> Why can this not be picked up and installed on the production line? It would appear that there is a variation in machining tolerance/or component.It should be a simple task to use a "go" or "no"go gauge to asses if it needs the shim.
> 
> How many "average" coffee machine buyers would have a suitable socket/spanner to dissasemble the machine the knowledge or interest even with step by step written instructions.
> 
> If I went to buy a coffee grinder and was told I might have to take it apart and add something to make it suitable to grind for espresso coffee ,I would ask what other machine they had that could be used out of the box. Most people "want it now" and expect it to work straight away


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## coffeechap

What is the uk price of the grinder?


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## Dave Gubbin

£199.95 .............



coffeechap said:


> What is the uk price of the grinder?


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## AussieEx

Perhaps this will just sound grumpy but whatever the merits or otherwise of the machine, the Heston branding is enough proof for me that the machine is not really aimed at coffee-lovers. I mean, I love his food but he can't serve Nespresso at the Fat Duck and then turn around and expect his endorsement of an espresso machine to carry much weight.


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## jeebsy

According to the barista demoing the machine, when Heston had a coffee from the Breville DB it was a revelation.


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## Neill

jeebsy said:


> According to the barista demoing the machine, when Heston had a coffee from the Breville DB it was a revelation.


It would be, he's been drinking nespresso for too long. No amount of liquid nitrogen is going to save that.


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## AussieEx

Neill said:


> It would be, he's been drinking nespresso for too long. No amount of liquid nitrogen is going to save that.


Hear hear! A properly dialled in grinder, a half-capable machine, and a competent barista and he thinks its a revelation. If only he'd put a tenth of as much

effort into his coffee as his food.


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## jeebsy

Wouldn't have thought for a starred restaurant having a barista to make coffees would be too much to ask. Would increase the wankiness factor a lot which they'd love - look at the Noma thing that was posted recently. Maybe they don't think the results are repeatable enough and that's why the use pods. Cooking at that level is all about consistency.


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## Kyle548

jeebsy said:


> Wouldn't have thought for a starred restaurant having a barista to make coffees would be too much to ask. Would increase the wankiness factor a lot which they'd love - look at the Noma thing that was posted recently. Maybe they don't think the results are repeatable enough and that's why the use pods. Cooking at that level is all about consistency.


Producing coffee at any level is all about consistency.


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## xiuxiuejar

It's called advertising and money.


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Wouldn't have thought for a starred restaurant having a barista to make coffees would be too much to ask. Would increase the wankiness factor a lot which they'd love - look at the Noma thing that was posted recently. Maybe they don't think the results are repeatable enough and that's why the use pods. Cooking at that level is all about consistency.


Fantastic can you come up with the scale and appropriate descriptors from 1-10 for the wankiness factor please.









Also they isn't the mark up on the coffee that there is on the food they sell.


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## jeebsy

Yeah the food would have to subsidise the coffee for sure. Think Rene Redzepi said improving the coffee cost far more than he thought it would.

Wankiness factor....to get past 7 you'd have to have a barista with a beard reciting Arcade Fire lyrics intertwined with stories of how he went foraging for the biodynamic coffee beans himself that morning


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## Kyle548

jeebsy said:


> Yeah the food would have to subsidise the coffee for sure. Think Rene Redzepi said improving the coffee cost far more than he thought it would.
> 
> Wankiness factor....to get past 7 you'd have to have a barista with a beard reciting Arcade Fire lyrics intertwined with stories of how he went foraging for the biodynamic coffee beans himself that morning


Human Luwak coffee?


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## jeebsy

Kyle548 said:


> Human Luwak coffee?


CC and expobarista have the exclusive production rights to that


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## Mrboots2u

jeebsy said:


> Yeah the food would have to subsidise the coffee for sure. Think Rene Redzepi said improving the coffee cost far more than he thought it would.
> 
> Wankiness factor....to get past 7 you'd have to have a barista with a beard reciting Arcade Fire lyrics intertwined with stories of how he went foraging for the biodynamic coffee beans himself that morning


Love it .........


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## coffeechap

It tastes really good honest guvnor


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## Kyle548

jeebsy said:


> CC and expobarista have the exclusive production rights to that


But heres the spin.

You make a Civet eat Human Luwak*©* coffee then brew it in suis vide at 50 degrees for 27 hours at 80g/l to ensure mega smoothness.

Because its been passed though not one, but two special processes the low temperature wont cause too many acids due to under-extraction and the high dose will help the body.


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## Dave Gubbin

Hi All,

As a FYI we have tested the grinders and will be shimming prior to distribution. Thanks for Glenns comments on the other thread, CoffeeChap should get a grinder to review mid next week.


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## El carajillo

Good to hear , I think it will be to your benefit loger term


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## Dave Gubbin

Please, if anyone is interested in looking over and inside the dual boiler and smart grinder, come along and see us next Wednesday. We'll have plenty of machines to play on, scaces, dissected boilers etc etc etc.nothing too formal, just an open book look at the kit.


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## GB2014

I have the Breville Dual Boiler BES900 Espresso Machine, which I purchased in Australia along with the Breville Grinder. This machine is simply fantastic, produces a good extraction once you get the tamping correct, the milk steamer also works great. The model I have also has a water filter in it. It is just a good all-round machine that does what it is supposed to do and with dual boilers you have hot water all the time.

I have been shown and trained to use this machine by a properly trained Barista in Australia and when he used it with fresh beans he didn't even tamp the coffee, but easily produced a fantastic coffee finished with coffee art on the top. My wife and I both use this machine with ease and produce great coffee extractions. I would highly recommend this machine.

I have pasted a link to some good youtube videos, which show this model at its best.


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## Charliej

HI GB, the version sold here in the UK is the 920XL so different in some ways to the original BES900, there are quite a few owners of them on the forum now.


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