# It is a good combo?



## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Hi

I am going to order new Zenith 65E for my current Gaggia set up

I will upgrade my Gaggia Classic next year ( after Christmas ). I would go for Rocket R58

1/Do you think 65E + R58 is a good combo? Any advice? Please give?

2/£1.7k for the R58, however, there is L1 from CC for sale at the same price, please let me know if the it is will expensive for maintenance cost to run a double-boiler espresso - compare to lever one?

3/Is there another cheaper espresso machine you think it can give a similar result as R58?

Thanks

JK


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jk, wow, you are asking for opinions here! Firstly, who says that any Rocket is a good machine. Just because they are popular does not actually make them good! If you are considering that type of expenditure, I would visit a retailer who has those, and others on the bench to try. I doubt you will be able to tell the difference on an shot pulled on a Rocket or a shot pulled on something else! The lever shot produces a totally different taste to a pump shot, so therefore I am saying let taste be the judge, not aesthetics.

Next the grinder. The Zenith is a capable grinder, but it is not a great grinder. If your machine makes a coffee out of what you put into it, then what've a cheaper piece of equipment to produce what is without doubt the most. Important part of the shot?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

For curiosity What lead you to the r58 as opposed to any other e61 dB machine? Looks? Reviews? You tried one?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

JK have to agree with David about putting money into a grinder. I also suspect that any minute a slew of very good used but loved dual boiler and other machines will be put up for sale here when the new Vesuvius ships later this month. You might be able to get a very good set-up at a very competitive price. Unless you want everything new.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If you are thinking of spending in excess of £2k, strongly recommend you get up close and personal with the kit on your wishlist. A trip to somewhere like Bella Barista would be a good idea - where you can get hands on experience and pull shots on machines you are considering. The Zenith seems to be the 'go to' grinder at the moment in its price range but, as others will tell you, the grinder is more important than the espresso machine so maybe you want to give choice of grinder more thought.

Pump driven machines are inherently more complicated than levers - which are very simple to maintain and service. Taste profile differs too. Again, if you are considering a lever, some hands on experience would be a very good idea so you can compare with pump driven machines on your wish list.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Spending a good chunk of your budget on a really decent grinder is never going to be the wrong decision.

and as can be seen £1700 as recent events will show an L1 is within in your grasp , I agree with previous posts you should try out the pump vs lever before pulling the trigger.

Levers aren't for everyone but in comparison IMO the L1 clearly ticks the most boxes for a prosumer machine and there is a reason people always refer to and use it as reference when comparing machines.

R58 is better looking though !


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I can only agree on the grinder front, my most worthwhile upgrades have been grinders not machines, think of it this way , your machine is like an oven, spend more money and get more consistency and accuracy of temperature out of it, but if you cook Tesco Value meat in that oven it won't improve the meat however expensive it is. Your grinder prepares your ingredient for brewing and the better the grind quality, the better your espresso. Even with a £1.2k dual boiler machine going from a Brasilia RR55 OD which people who have experience of both say produces a better grind than the Zenith 65 E to a Eureka Mythos produced a huge difference in the results in the cup, which is what matters. £500 on a used grinder will go a lot further than £500 on a new one.


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Thank you very much for all advice



dfk41 said:


> . . .Firstly, who says that any Rocket is a good machine. Just because they are popular does not actually make them good! If you are considering that type of expenditure, I would visit a retailer who has those, and others on the bench to try. I doubt you will be able to tell the difference on an shot pulled on a Rocket or a shot pulled on something else! . . .
> 
> . . .Next the grinder. The Zenith is a capable grinder, but it is not a great grinder. If your machine makes a coffee out of what you put into it, then what've a cheaper piece of equipment to produce what is without doubt the most. Important part of the shot?





Obnic said:


> JK have to agree with David about putting money into a grinder. I also suspect that any minute a slew of very good used but loved dual boiler and other machines will be put up for sale here when the new Vesuvius ships later this month. You might be able to get a very good set-up at a very competitive price. Unless you want everything new.


Both of your advice seems to save me a lot of £. I will delete £1699 Rocket on my list. I will be very glad if you can tell me the one that you said:"... I doubt you will be able to tell the difference on an shot pulled on a Rocket or a shot pulled on something else..."



Charliej said:


> . . . Even with a £1.2k dual boiler machine going from a Brasilia RR55 OD which people who have experience of both say produces a better grind than the Zenith 65 E to a Eureka Mythos produced a huge difference in the results in the cup, which is what matters. £500 on a used grinder will go a lot further than £500 on a new one.


I ( I think not only me) did wait for the used grinder for a long time. I gave up. Let me search RR55 OD now

Could you please be a bit more specific about the " 1.2K dual boiler". I'd like to hear


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The machine Charlie refers too is a Sage Dual Boiler. It seems very capable but I doubt Charlie would buy one if he had to shell out £1200 (he has one but was road testing it for Sage and got a healthy discount). bellaBarista are a forum sponsor who have a good range of machines in stock, ranging from £600 to £2500 or so. They are in Northampton which is probably miles from you but if you were able to make an appointment to go there you would end up getting the machine you want by a process of elimination!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Expobar Leva Dual Boiler available for a bawhair over 1k


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

A few weeks ago there was a thread of members willing to allow other members to visit and test their setups. It was very well subscribed and offered access to a tremendous variety of grinders and espresso machines. Might be useful.


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> For curiosity What lead you to the r58 as opposed to any other e61 dB machine? Looks? Reviews? You tried one?


Hi. thanks for your question. To be honest, I just read the reviews and decide to go for it



Obnic said:


> JK have to agree with David about putting money into a grinder. I also suspect that any minute a slew of very good used but loved dual boiler and other machines will be put up for sale here when the new Vesuvius ships later this month. You might be able to get a very good set-up at a very competitive price.


Thanks, Please tell me the dual boiler ones you think they are ". . .very good set-up at a very competitive price."



The Systemic Kid said:


> If you are thinking of spending in excess of £2k, strongly recommend you get up close and personal with the kit on your wishlist. A trip to somewhere like Bella Barista would be a good idea - where you can get hands on experience and pull shots on machines you are considering. The Zenith seems to be the 'go to' grinder at the moment in its price range but, as others will tell you, the grinder is more important than the espresso machine so maybe you want to give choice of grinder more thought.
> 
> Pump driven machines are inherently more complicated than levers - which are very simple to maintain and service. Taste profile differs too. Again, if you are considering a lever, some hands on experience would be a very good idea so you can compare with pump driven machines on your wish list.





Thecatlinux said:


> Spending a good chunk of your budget on a really decent grinder is never going to be the wrong decision.


You will mean: Mazzer Mayor and Robur or Royal?

Thanks

Julio K


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Can you get to the grindoff event


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

JK009 said:


> Thanks, Please tell me the dual boiler ones you think they are ". . .very good set-up at a very competitive price."


Expobar Leva Dual Boiler


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Can you get to the grindoff event


If I had your budget JK, I would be doing this, even if it was a long drive!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

It would be a great chance to get totally independent advice and hands on experience with the best grinders and machines around


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Thank you very much for all of your advice

Now I am saving up for Expobar Leva Dual Boiler water tank for £1099

While saving up for the Espresso machine upgrade, I need to buy a grinder first. I think about £499 Zenith65E. There are some advice that stop me buying 65E. However, it seems that there is still no one pointing out or suggesting the alternative grinder's names or models

Julio K


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

JK009 said:


> Thank you very much for all of your advice
> 
> Now I am saving up for Expobar Leva Dual Boiler water tank for £1099
> 
> ...


What Do you want from your grinder? single dosing? Or running with full hopper? Size?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Well some alternative grinders you could look at are

Mahlkönig EK43

Compak range such as K8 and K10

Mazzer range such as Super Jolly, Mini and Major

Eureka range such as Mythos

To name just a few. All have advantages and disadvantages, so as others say reading up on the forums and if possible demoing one would be a smart move!


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

aaronb said:


> Well some alternative grinders you could look at are
> 
> Mahlkönig EK43
> 
> ...


Hi

Thanks for your short list.

It seems the forum does not allow to post the link.

Please PM me for where they're being sold

Thanks


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Aaronb, all the grinders you mention except the Mazzers are between £1200 and £1800......that's slightly more than £499!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Aaronb, all the grinders you mention except the Mazzers are between £1200 and £1800......that's slightly more than £499!


Considerably less 2nd hand though (but agree still over £499)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Aaronb, all the grinders you mention except the Mazzers are between £1200 and £1800......that's slightly more than £499!


Yes twitter is for twits

Evidence is I'm on it


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Bootsie, if I change my sig, by replacing the I with an A, will I be modded......Lol


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Bootsie, if I change my sig, by replacing the I with an A, will I be modded......Lol


Not by me







.......


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You could change it for an @ symbol


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

TWAT

13 twits...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So twits would become [email protected] would be worried that people might think I could not spell propaely and think I had typed twots


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> You could change it for an @ symbol


@coffeetwat?.......


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Aaronb, all the grinders you mention except the Mazzers are between £1200 and £1800......that's slightly more than £499!


Ah didn't realise he wasn't going to up his grinder budget a bit too.

JK - just Google them to find vendors


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

aaronb said:


> Ah didn't realise he wasn't going to up his grinder budget a bit too.
> 
> JK - just Google them to find vendors


I think I could change my mind from 65E to K10 ( just base on reviews and group test)

if I go for brand newK10 ( £1075), it is a good investment?

I am also thinking about 2 Mazzer SJ . They are called "timer" and "electronic". Price is completely different. I think some body says dose less / on demand .... I am a "grean bean" and know nothing about them.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You need to try and find a way of using or sampling shots from a k10 or other large conical burr grinder.

The mazzers are smaller flat burr grinders and in my opinion will produce a different taste to a large conical like a k10.

Its only my opinion based on same coffee from both grinders is cafe environments though.

Google k10 on Here plenty of reviews from CC and dfk etc from last year .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have not seen a k1o for the price you mention. I have had one and they are brilliant (unless yours is the doser version and not the Fresh on demand). The downside is that being conical burrs, they retain a huge amount of grind in the system, probably between 18 and 25 gms. this means that when making adjustments, if you say tighten the burrs up a little, then you have to pull 2 shots before the adjusted grind reaches the pf. Sorry to sound condescending but you sound a new starter and you are going to struggle with a k10 big time. The K8 Fresh is a different kettle of fish altogether.

Personally, I would make a lost of what I wanted from a grinder if on demand or with doser etc etc then see what is available. If you can imagine passing your driving test, would you immediately go out and buy a racing car? No, of course not because you know you have no experience and so you buy something more modest then upgrade when it is appropriate.........


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Grinders don't appreciate in value . some hold value better than others . so not an investment as such. New commercial grinder should last you a lifetime in a home environment if looked after properly


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Good advise above. List what you want from a grinder in size and functions. Don't just look at varying ones and ask any good. If your spending the kind of cash you are proposing I'd want to try these things myself not weigh up faceless internet opinions like mine or others


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I have not seen a k1o for the price you mention. I have had one and they are brilliant (unless yours is the doser version and not the Fresh on demand)......


me too, I see the price is very interesting. I can send you the link via PM if you want to.

OR may be I am wrong. It is not K10. Is there any other K10?


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

I've got a K10 Fresh (on demand) and I paid £1,300 for it as a new, unused second-user one from a forum member.

If you're around London (I'm to the NE) then you're very welcome to come and play with it!

DB


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

DavidBondy said:


> I've got a K10 Fresh (on demand) and I paid £1,300 for it as a new, unused second-user one from a forum member.
> 
> If you're around London (I'm to the NE) then you're very welcome to come and play with it!
> 
> DB


Thanks for your invite .

It is not K10 Fresh. It is K10 Doserless ( previous version )


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

A k10 is a grinder with a doser. A K10 Fresh is the on demand grinder.

http://www.alchemycoffee.co.uk/compak-k10-pro.html

http://www.chriscoffee.com/Compak-K10-Fresh-Espresso-Grinder-p/k10freshg.htm

There is a lot of difference in cost between the two.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Were it me, I would buy something at the 3500 price bracket, then if you have both the money and the skill to warrant a better grinder, make your change then. remember, just because you have a Porsche, it does not make you a racing driver!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The k10 barista is a great grinder and oddly enough retains less coffee than the fresh, ask expenno how good the one he has is and it cost him less than a zenith


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> The k10 barista is a great grinder and oddly enough retains less coffee than the fresh, ask expenno how good the one he has is and it cost him less than a zenith


Coz of angle of exit shute? ??


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> The k10 barista is a great grinder and oddly enough retains less coffee than the fresh, ask expenno how good the one he has is and it cost him less than a zenith


It seems:

if after a long waiting, there is no used K10 for sale, I will go for the brand new £1075 K10 from the link above


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What are you looking for from your grinder? You've been asked several times and it makes it hard to give recommendations without knowing.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

JK try and answers these questions if you can

Budget

Size ( needs to fit under a cabinet or can free stand )

New or second hand ?

Doser on or on demand ?

Will you change coffee alots alot or stick to a couple of blends only ?

Do you think you will single dose ( weigh a single dose in and want to get it out ) or put a few beans in a hopper and have timer deliver you an amount of beans..

Will you be the only one using it ( or wife partner too ? )

Wll it be used only for espresso or wanna use if for brewed

Is speed of grind important or would you consider a hand grinder like a hg 1 ?

Is colour important ? Does it need to fit into a colour scheme , will you have the final say ( or a wife partner etc ? )


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> What are you looking for from your grinder? You've been asked several times and it makes it hard to give recommendations without knowing.


Hi

thanks for asking.

1/My first grinder: Porlex did not give me consistent results.

2/ Grinder must be with me at least 10 years ( for home use). Too busy that I do not have time to search for another grinder upgrade in 7-10 years time

3/ Initially, I thought about Zenith65E. However, there are too many members advise me not to.

4/ Mazzer SJ or Royal cost nearly £1K

5/ Many members here and in another forums give positive reviews about K10

6/I believe K10 still hold value to resale

7/ Coffee Chap can be trusted in his neutral advice


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Thanks. If you can now answer mrboots2u's questions above we can give more advice


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Boots...

Should the question "doser or on demand" be a realistic question for the home user? As far as I can see there is only one up side of a doser for the home user and thats less clumping due to the need to continuously thwack the doser. A quick stir of the grinds means that even the clumpy-est OD grinder can have the same result.

It seems from the question that it should be a feature that should be considered, when I think given the choice it should always be avoided due to the extra hassle involved. The only real reason I can see for buying a dosered grinder is that they are very common second hand as they filter through from the commercial market, or if the quality of the grinder is significantly higher than those grinders that are doserless in the same price bracket...

Do you see where I'm coming from... or am I missing something?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you're single dosing an on demand grinder is a bit of a waste of money


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mr Evans

asking the Op opinion's







.

Lots of people have dosers on home grinder , lots of people have on demand , so it is kinda relevant

Not saying my questions are definitive , just trying to get a picture of what they guy might want ...

And i came up with them in two minutes


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I do not think any more advice should be offered. I am not totally convinced that this is not a wind up. Over and out


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mr Evans

asking the Op opinion's







.

Lots of people have dosers on home grinder , lots of people have on demand , so it is kinda relevant

Not saying my questions are definitive , just trying to get a picture of what they guy might want ...

And i came up with them in two minutes

Have you owned a commercial doser grinder but the way ?


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> JK try and answers these questions if you can
> 
> Budget
> 
> ...


1/ budget : under £1k

2/ size: under cabinet is priority. " free stand " is also ok

3/ condition: new ( because of getting tired of waiting too long)

4/Doser: Doserless

5/Not changing coffee a lot

6/ Single dose

7/ I am the main user

8/ using for Cappuccino and Latte

9/ Speed: not important

10/Colour : Not important

Post edited:

4/ Doser or On Demand: not important

Thank you all for being patient

Julio K


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

question 4 are you saying you would prefer a doser or doserless grinder ?

Single dosing the same coffee on an doserless ( on demand grinder ) does seem to be kinda counter productive .....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Totally with boots and Jeebsy, almost all od grinders work best with weight of beans, the k10 can easily be modded for very little retention from single dosing, ask xpenno, also the dosered versions of most grinders cost significantly less when purchased new, the k10 is a fine example as it is £500 cheaper, brandnew in the dosered version


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> question 4 are you saying you would prefer a doser or doserless grinder ?
> 
> Single dosing the same coffee on an doserless ( on demand grinder ) does seem to be kinda counter productive .....





jeebsy said:


> If you're single dosing an on demand grinder is a bit of a waste of money


4/ Doser or OD: Not important

( my post was edited)

3/ Condition: I will give it 1 more month. If there is no sale in this forum (or in other forums) I will go for the new one


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

and I thought most cars had electric windows these days......


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Why do you want to single dose if you stick with the same coffee?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

fish are biting this evening i see........


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If I had to pick anyone as a troll it would be Noah, JFK just seems unresponsive and if he is trolling it's the most boring troll ever.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> fish are biting this evening i see........


My we are in a overly cynical mood tonight


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Who.....moi?

Come on bootsie..it's a wind up. It is someone asking daft questions of people who like to express opinions


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I would prefer to think its someone asking for advise and help until someone shows me proof otherwise


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Want to buy a slice of the moon I own bootsie!


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Is that beachfront by the Sea of Tranquility?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Of nick sorry, I have sold all those ones. The current crop are a bit cheaper being set further back. Unfortunately, the smell of cheese us a bit more full on, but, hey ho, you cannot have everything.


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Why do you want to single dose if you stick with the same coffee?


Hi

I did not say I sticked with the same coffee. I said " not change a lot"

Ok then!

6/ Single dose or not : Not important to me


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Put a wanted post up with what you want then. Take some initiative


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Put a wanted post up with what you want then. Take some initiative


Thank you very much for your advice:good:


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

What about an HG1? Seems to fit most if the criteria...


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> What about an HG1? Seems to fit most if the criteria...


Really nice design. I tried to Google it, but still do not know where about in UK it is sold


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It's sold in the USA only


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> And i came up with them in two minutes
> 
> Have you owned a commercial doser grinder but the way ?


It seems to be asked a fair amount here, I never understood why!

I have a Mazzer Sj at the moment, the doser drives me up the wall, currently undergoing mods to see that I never have to thwack the stupid handle again -_-


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I didn't mind the thwacking, at least that meant your distribution was going to be good. It was pumping the camera hood and the pastry brush that annoyed me.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Modding the veins and then just moving the thwacker quickly seemed to dislodge most of the loose grinds in the doser, and the camera hood gets most of the grinds in the exit chute.

But I just cant be bothered, I really miss having the timer on the Mignon also and I think I'll be going down the Auber timer route to get this same functionality back.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Wow, reading this thread makes me face-palm.

JK, before you go spending your thousands, I really suggest you learn more about making espresso, as there seems to be a huge gulf between your knowledge(?) and the budget you're creating for your new setup.

There is a plethora of grinders and machines out there. Saying you're going to buy a setup at £2k+ just because someone has said it's good is risky business. It's a lot of money so be sure you're making the right choices for 'you'.

As the others have said, get yourself to the grind off event, not only will you see some of the best grinders out there; you'll also learn a tonne of info just chatting with the guys who will attend. You can't put a price on knowledge; but the heartache and money saved will serve you well


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Plus one on above


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