# ZPM Nocturn kickstarter project



## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

have you guys came accross this machine/Project before?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zpmespresso/pid-controlled-espresso-machine

I was just pointed out to it by a fellow coffee enthusiast.

Any opinions?

R


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Will be interesting to see how it performs

Pretty sure it has been discussed on Coffee Forums UK early last year.

Still not in production.


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## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

yes still not available (apparently only from the summer), there are some videos on the updates section. on my (very quick) search on the forum couldn't get any hits, hence the post.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4835-New-machine-on-kickstarter!!&highlight=kickstarter


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## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

found it now http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4835-New-machine-on-kickstarter!!&highlight=kickstarter


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Project collapsed, lots of people lost money.

https://www.facebook.com/zpmespresso

Had here anybody backed it?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

aaronb said:


> Project collapsed, lots of people lost money.
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/zpmespresso
> 
> Had here anybody backed it?


Last backers update below ( no didn't back it..... )

"Hello Everyone!

Unfortunately we do not have good news to report. At the beginning of December our COO informed us that, effective immediately and with no notice, she would be leaving the company and taking most of our team with her. Since then she's been radio silent. This halted the progress the company was making, and left us reeling.

We explored our legal options, started a search for a new team, and reached out to our existing investors to get a bridge round together. Even though they were very supportive, at the end of the day, we were not able to get a big enough bridge round together to move forward. While we've looked into several other financing options, after serious consideration, we reached the decision to shut the company down. We are currently ending all operations.

It was an incredibly difficult choice to make, given the funds, effort, and time put into the company. We have poured 3+ years of our lives and all our personal savings into ZPM, because we believed -- and still do -- that there is a huge need in the market for what we're doing, and that we've made an amazing product that can get the job done.

We deeply regret that it's coming to an end in this way, especially given how painfully close we are to completion. However we want you to know that you have been incredible backers, and it has been an absolute honor to be working on your behalf and have you guys behind us. Your support and expertise was invaluable, and we wouldn't have gotten nearly as far as we did without everyone's support and advice. Thank you for believing in us -- we are very sorry to disappoint.

The vast majority of the funds have been spent on development and inventory, and we will most likely be unable to offer refunds. However, we are currently having conversations with several other parties to see if we can't create a situation where your pledges are still honored and you guys get something for all your support of this project. Please stay tuned -- we will keep you up-to-date on this front in the coming month, and very much hope to see a silver lining come out of it.

If nothing does, then we will be pushing out as much as we can, and open-sourcing and releasing all our designs and code. Either way, we will also later be putting out information on the financials and challenges we faced that we were unable to openly discuss before.

Thank you all very much. Working on this project was the most ambitious and meaningful undertaking any of us have ever attempted. Getting to know all of you, and working to create some seriously cool technology was one of the most rewarding things we've ever done. We are deeply and truly sorry that despite our best efforts, we were not able to get this machine across the finish line.

Love,"


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## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

no, but those are incredibly bad news for the project. 369K USD wich was 18 times their goal were spent and nothing?

R


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rmcgandara said:


> no, but those are incredibly bad news for the project. 369K USD wich was 18 times their goal were spent and nothing?
> 
> R


Real professionals.........


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

This wouldn't be the first time a Kickstarter project has failed... people need to understand that it is an investment in the development of the project and NOT the purchase of a product they are putting their money toward. The product you get is a reward for helping fund the development.

If the development goes bad, you lose your money. I think kickstarter will take a bit of a knock over the next couple of years as people start to realise this.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Do people not understand that? It's pretty fundamental.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

It is, but it doesn't stop people getting very up in arms when a project goes bad.

Sometimes it is justified, and there seems to have been foul play or a lack of intent to ever create a true product. But most of the time the over-riding opinion seems to be asking how they could just spend everyones money, and have 'nothing' to show for it.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

That's a valid question to ask imo


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Each case is individual, but with the ZPM it was obvious enough that the had prototypes and were in the production process.

With 8x the amount of money comes many times the amount of potential machines to manufacturer as rewards for the whole process, if the project was truly at a late stage of development then it is certainly feasible that the money has gone into inventory as they suggest, and of course the actual development of the machine.

The COO walking was obviously a sign things were going bad, and the inability to replace them or get the project funded by investors, even at this supposedly late stage is an indication that it never would have made it to market. But its not like nothing ever came of the 350 odd thousand dollars, I dont really see any smoke and mirrors on where that money went. They had investors too, like most projects of this size, so it was probably substantially more than just the kickstarter money that went down the pooper.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

A lot of people on the kick starter comments seriously have misunderstood what or how kick starter works ...and entitles them too

And yet still the artisan coffee maker, arguable even less realistic as a project had just raised £800k backing......


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Plus it looks like zpm had additional funding meaning they had over 1 million in the end... The spec of the machine and its features was never gonna be achievable at a 400 dollar price point...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dylan said:


> If the development goes bad, you lose your money. I think kickstarter will take a bit of a knock over the next couple of years as people start to realise this.


I really hope it does take a knock, because it's amazing how so much money can do so little, when it's other peoples money. I find Kickstarter project either are totally unrealistic on the amount of spend required (e.g. far too little). Or are a whole load of people without the resources and proper experience, who get a shedload of money and spend it unwisely.

So much more gets done when an experienced companies/people spends their own money, because they spend it wisely, have less waste and plan properly. The amount of money some failed products have had have amazed me and often they have delivered nothing of any worth at all....so much so, one wonders where all the money went. I realise Kickstarter has it's supporters, but I am definitely not one of them.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm not sure where you get that impression Dave, there are hundreds of successful Kickstarter projects, and only a relative handful of failures.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

A shame. I gave up waiting after a year and requested and received a refund. Especially when it appeared that there wouldn't be a 240v version and they were recommending using a step down transformer.

The machine did exist though and was certainly interesting. Just couldn't get it out to people.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I don't understand some of this... because the kickstarter deal is

'If the project you're backing is successfully funded, your card will be charged when the project reaches its funding deadline. If the project does not reach its funding goal, your card is never charged.'

Unless some projects are saying that we need your money to help us start up and we may never realise what we're trying to produce. Is the issue with the ZPM that they had reached their funding goal and then it al fell apart?

https://www.kickstarter.com/help/faq/backer+questions


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Phil104 said:


> I don't understand some of this... because the kickstarter deal is
> 
> 'If the project you're backing is successfully funded, your card will be charged when the project reaches its funding deadline. If the project does not reach its funding goal, your card is never charged.'
> 
> ...


Errr... yes. That's the whole point of Kickstarter. It's to help companies start up - with an end-game of shipping some form of reward to the backers - though this may or may not come to fruition within any sort of timescale (many projects suffer massive slippage), or ever - as with ZPM.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

They reached their funding goal, they got the money. Once they had the money, and someone elses money, and 3 years of time and development on their part.... it all went titsup.

With most technology based kickstarter projects, they had an idea, they had prototypes and they needed money to continue development and produce the machine.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Thanks for the above - I think that I've been naturally more cautious in what I have funded and so not looked at projects like this where, in good faith, it ends up having been a gamble. There was an article in the Guardian or the observer over the Christmas holidays about crowd funding. It included the man who was trying to raise something like £2m to ail around the world (with no experience) but only reached something £47.64.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> I really hope it does take a knock, because it's amazing how so much money can do so little, when it's other peoples money. I find Kickstarter project either are totally unrealistic on the amount of spend required (e.g. far too little). Or are a whole load of people without the resources and proper experience, who get a shedload of money and spend it unwisely.
> 
> So much more gets done when an experienced companies/people spends their own money, because they spend it wisely, have less waste and plan properly. The amount of money some failed products have had have amazed me and often they have delivered nothing of any worth at all....so much so, one wonders where all the money went. I realise Kickstarter has it's supporters, but I am definitely not one of them.


But those companies aren't as likely to come up with genuinely innovative products because of the gamble


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

It looks like there might be a class action lawsuit...

T.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

As an example of where it can go right...

I funded this last year

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/hellobragi/the-dash-wireless-smart-in-ear-headphones

And it recently showed up on Engadget, a hugely popular tech blog, in nearly finished form. It was possibly one of the most ambitious Kickstarter projects yet, and throughout the development their updates mentioned "experts" telling them "it cant be done" (not the best way to stop your backers worrying).

The tech packed in is incredible, and I expected it to fail at multiple times, but it looks like I will be lucky and get one of the fist run in a month or so.

Just because these projects are ambitious doesn't mean they will fail.

http://www.engadget.com/2015/01/05/bragi-dash-exclusive/



> "Bragi's spec sheet for "The Dash" read like a ridiculous wish list. There was touch control, two separate ear buds (that connect to each other wirelessly, as well as to your phone), 4GB of onboard storage, 3.5-hours battery life and a self-contained media player. That's impressive enough, but Bragi didn't stop there. The Dash would be stuffed full of sensors like an accelerometer, heart rate monitor and an oxygen saturation sensor. It didn't stop there either. Some pretty special-sounding software meant that The Dash would serve as a personal trainer through audio feedback; there would be a "transparent" mode so you could hear ambient sounds and more. Bragi didn't stop there"


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## majnu (Jan 31, 2014)

Just came to post an update, seems you're already on the ball.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

I was tempted by those earphones, but I've stuck with wired setup. They are seriously impressive though.


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## majnu (Jan 31, 2014)

Also pulled this up from Reddit. Was this just a scam then?



> $369,569 pledged of $20,000 goalThis project was successfully funded on January 19, 2012.
> 
> It looks like they may be starting another version of this scam in Shanghai. It looks like this was put up within the last few months: https://www.shanghaivalley.com/projects/project-taste/
> 
> UPDATE: If you paid with Amazon Payments like I did, you can't seek help from them: Service Disputes cannot be filed after 105 days from the transaction date , transaction date is :19 1 2012. Contacting my credit card company next.




__
https://www.reddit.com/r/kickstarter/comments/2seuzc


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

ZPM replied on twitter about that. Says it's not them.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/555454262646304768


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I don't really know the details of this machine, but was it effectively a small PID operated Classic? or was there more to it?

T.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dsc said:


> I don't really know the details of this machine, but was it effectively a small PID operated Classic? or was there more to it?
> 
> T.


As far as I remember, there was no boiler, it was completely thermoblock controlled, you still had to switch to steam, but it would be immediate as it ran through the same thermoblock at a higher temperature.

They also got into adding an LCD, with profiles (not pressure, but temperature) and such things i believe.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I must start a Kickstartger project and after 4 years I could deliver this. It's also completely rust proof and lightweight:

























Note: Not a simulation, or photoshop, actual built product shown.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Doesn't have a PID.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Will that steam arm fit my vesuvius .....


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Talking of kickstarter... A forum member has started one to get his own place going..

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/silhouettelondon/silhouette-london?ref=nav_search

Be nice if it gets funded.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Any updates on this? I saw loads of comments from pissed off people and estimates showing that ZPM might have gotten around $2mln funding in the end. Even if its 30% of that estimated sum its seems a lot for effectively nothing, considering they had working models at the end.

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dsc said:


> Any updates on this? I saw loads of comments from pissed off people and estimates showing that ZPM might have gotten around $2mln funding in the end. Even if its 30% of that estimated sum its seems a lot for effectively nothing, considering they had working models at the end.
> 
> T.


They are declared insolvent& bankrupt... There are people trying to take legal recourse against them in the states....there will be no machine.

There are several threads on credit and home barista documenting the end days....


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## Chockymonster (Jan 21, 2013)

I don't understand the whole class action thing. People are backing the project, investing in the process. If it works then great, if not then sorry! It's like investing in shares, you can be lucky or lose out. Go in to the projects with eyes open. I've backed a number of successful projects and there are 2 things that seem to always ring true.

1) The majority of backers think they are buying from a store, they don't understand the process.

2) Underestimation. Backers and project runners underestimate the costs involved, the propensity for anything involving 3rd parties to go tits up and the time it will take to receive poorly engineered parts after getting a number of excellent samples.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Well, it appears that the ZPM project is finally dead. http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/zpm-espresso-and-the-rage-of-the-jilted-crowdfunder.html?_r=0


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