# How often to descale and an Odd Happening on a Barister Express



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sage are understandably silent on how often to descale as water varies across the country. I live in B'ham and have never ever had to descale anything. I just checked the kettle we have had for years and no sign of any scale. Any one have any idea what is a reasonable interval? I suppose it needs to be shots based. Kits for testing hardness are available but it's probably not as simple as that as there will be other dissolved solids.

The odd happening on the BE may be due to the cleaning cycle. It came on again for the 2nd time today. All went ok and I flushed clean water though it a few times by keeping my finger on the double shot button. Ran some hot water and then tried steam. The wand more or less squirted hot water out. I allowed it to do that for a while and then thought maybe it's due to the cleaning cycle so switched the machine off and then back on. Yet more water out of the wand. I let it do that for a while and then tried turning the steam on and off a couple of times and it started working as it usually does.

No signs of this sort of thing happening on the first cleaning cycle we had or at least we didn't notice. So ??????????? Is this sort of thing normal. I suppose if too much water gets into the steam circuit some how it has to squirt it out and the cleaning cycle may have that effect?

John

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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

> How often to descale


Great question....

Some would say that it should be done every x months regardless...

If your kettle gets used more than the espresso machine, then the state of the kettle element could be a good reference point (although the kettle is not pressurised I recon its a good indicator)

But... from the internettywebby



> *This ratio depends on two factors: boiler pressure and boiler water pH. The value of the ratio increases almost logarithmically with increasing pressure and decreases with increasing pH.*
> 
> So the pressure in the boiler 'will' scale up quicker, so wait until there is a little scale in the kettle, as there should be more in the boiler.... lol
> ​


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Might be easier to change the water filter more often. I suspect a sensible answer to how often to descale is some count of cleaning cycles how many depending on the water. I don't use the steam much and drink the most coffee but water boiling off can often be heard after a shot has been run. I have set the temperature 1 setting up as I concluded it extracted a bit more. Probably due to heat loss through the portafilter. I do preheat that. It's amazing how effective the teflon insert is at the bottom of it. The spout and the top of the porrtafiter get pretty hot but the base of it externally stays cool. Makes me think that they could have extended the teflon up the sides somewhat.

I noticed some people use bottled water. I would have thought distilled might be a better option - not for drinking, just for the machine.

Still curious about the odd happening on the steam wand. I assume DTP's also have cleaning cycles and the gubbins inside are the same.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's not that some use "bottled water", because bottled water comes in as wide variety as tap water, it's more that people use bottled water that is calculated to contribute least to scaling, such as Volvic, or a mix of that & Waitrose essential Stretton Hills.

Distilled water becomes acidic when stored, this can be problematic for boilers.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Distilled water makes not nom coffee.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Distilled water makes not nom coffee.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Distilled is pretty stable actually as shown to me when I worked alongside some industrial and analytical chemists. High level purity from ion exchange units is far from it. In fact in an odd sort of way it's rather corrosive and will take up most things to some degree rather then remain pure.

I can't remember the Ph of single distilled water but can remember that it's pretty neutral. If it can the CO2 in the air will make water go acidic. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to drink distilled water but I have heard of people making coffee with it.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Distilled is pretty stable actually as shown to me when I worked alongside some industrial and analytical chemists. High level purity from ion exchange units is far from it. In fact in an odd sort of way it's rather corrosive and will take up most things to some degree rather then remain pure.
> 
> I can't remember the Ph of single distilled water but can remember that it's pretty neutral. If it can the CO2 in the air will make water go acidic. That doesn't mean it's a good idea to drink distilled water but I have heard of people making coffee with it.
> 
> ...


Over the past 15 years there has been quite a few folk looking into good water for machine boilers, all agree distilled isn't it. May be more feasible for brewed.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I think what Boots and Mark are getting at though is that there's more to it than scale. To get a tasty extraction you need certain minerals to be present, but of course in the range below which scale will form in large quantities. Distilled water may or may not cause leaching of the boiler metal, and may or may not become acidic (I'm no chemist) but anecdotal evidence as well as serious research from coffee authorities has shown that certain waters make tasty coffee and others less so, completely aside from the scale question. Volvic is favoured for its pH and mineral balance as a 'one bottle' solution for good tasting coffee and a happy espresso machine. Brewed coffee benefits from the 'right' water too, and the scale thing is as good as moot so there's more freedom.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd agree that water from different places tastes differently. Any one who lived in B'ham who just went on holiday once a year would soon realise that.







Maybe they should bottle it and sell it as Elan Valley. I did have a ph meter from breeding certain fish but sold it. My recollection is a touch alkaline which would be down to chlorination. I recollect figure a bit over 7 but Seven Trent reckon an average of 8. Hardness 2.72 Clarke scale. Chlorine comes out of water when it's left to stand or in the case of fish tanks they can be filled with a good powerful fine shower head which also gets rid of dissolved "air" for want of a better word.








Bet you all wanted to know that. Actually the water is too soft for some fish so there was a need for an RO unit and then adjusting the hardness with suitable ingredients. Too complicated in the end for a hobby and they would then lay eggs and very probably eat them. Maybe I should never have tried discus.

John

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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Actually there are a few on here who have top end espresso machines hooked up to RO systems with remineralisation measures to get it just right. No fish though.


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## DaveP (Jul 14, 2017)

ajohn said:


> I'd agree that water from different places tastes differently. Any one who lived in B'ham who just went on holiday once a year would soon realise that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And some think that making coffee is rocket science, lol

Marine tanks... the family never forgave me for making the wrong choice (holiday in Australia or spend the money on the tank)

And then the Mantis shrimp came with the new batch of live rock, lol.

But there is a similarity .. take care of the water and the fish will take care of them selves, bit like coffee really.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I kept marines for a long time too. That went wrong after a couple of years when I decided to add another fish. It came with something that killed the lot off. Sad as some of the fish were tame and would come forwards to be hand fed.

John

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