# NEED HELP! New Fracino Cherub



## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

So I got my new Fracino Cherub today and have been experimenting with shots. About 10 shots later and I still haven't managed to get 1mm of crema. I have gone from a pressurized £150 machine to this so quite a learning curve. Currently only have a plastic tamp (kinda expected it to at least come with a metal one), and a hario hand grinder, which I have been told on this forums that it would be fine until I get an electric one. Any advice?


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

What beans are you using? I suggest getting a proper tamper to ensure your doing the correct pressure etc.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

haz_pro said:


> What beans are you using? I suggest getting a proper tamper to ensure your doing the correct pressure etc.


The beans were bought from hasbean a few days ago. From brazil. They gave me perfect crema on my pressurized, though I know there is more room for error on that.


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Just wondering if you are grinding fine enough....


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Wobin19 said:


> Just wondering if you are grinding fine enough....


would have thought so, I'll give it another go with a finer grind though. Will be the last notch on the grinder


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Single basket or double?

How much are you dosing?

Is it the Hario Slim, or Skerton?


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Single basket or double?
> 
> How much are you dosing?
> 
> Is it the Hario Slim, or Skerton?


Tried both single and double. Same results

Haven't measured the dose but enough that it doesn't touch the group head

It is a skerton. Just tried at a finer grind. Was like flower, and nothing came out.


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## robti (Mar 27, 2013)

Okay try it back a notch fill a double basket up level with the top tamp down evenly and try for 27 seconds and then post back

Robert


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Waddy said:


> Tried both single and double. Same results
> 
> Haven't measured the dose but enough that it doesn't touch the group head
> 
> It is a skerton. Just tried at a finer grind. Was like flower, and nothing came out.


So the difference between the 2 settings is a shot that takes 30seconds, but has no crema & choking the machine? I haven't tried the Skerton, the Slim should certainly be OK (if hard work).


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

robti said:


> Okay try it back a notch fill a double basket up level with the top tamp down evenly and try for 27 seconds and then post back
> 
> Robert


Well i've given that a go, and its coming out at a perfect speed, but still no crema at all. Tried 2 different beans and same results with both. Filled the basket up to the brim, leveled it off, tamped, locked it tightly in place, and still the same. Took around 30 seconds to get 2 shots


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ok are you dialling the beans in on your grinder , or using the same setting when trying the different beans ? How does it taste? I think you might need some decent scales so you can dose the amount of coffee accurately, and then make changes from there .


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

It seems odd that you are getting no crema at all, the plastic tamper wont be helping as its not great at applying a solid downward force, but you should be getting something.

Bit of a random punt but just make sure the water coming out of the machine is hot


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> ok are you dialling the beans in on your grinder , or using the same setting when trying the different beans ? How does it taste? I think you might need some decent scales so you can dose the amount of coffee accurately, and then make changes from there .


I have tried 2 different beans at many different grinds for both. It's drinkable but not great.

Unfortunately the scales are boxed up in one of many many boxes as we are moving soon, and would take hours to find it.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> It seems odd that you are getting no crema at all, the plastic tamper wont be helping as its not great at applying a solid downward force, but you should be getting something.
> 
> Bit of a random punt but just make sure the water coming out of the machine is hot


The water is very hot. Even the top of the machines gets to the point where you can't leave your hand on it


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

What bar pressure has the cherub been set to


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

glevum said:


> What bar pressure has the cherub been set to


Thats actually what i've just been looking at. Its in the green but only just, about 1.05 bars. Is that enough?


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Thats the boiler pressure on the gauge, not the pump pressure. Pretty sure glevum is asking about the pump pressure and not sure how you would set it... My Cherub is fine at the factory setting whatever that may be. Not sure it helps!


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Ah sorry, still a rookie. It's supposedly at 15 bars


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

It could well be that you are getting a lot of channeling through the puck. Take a look at a spent puck and see if it looks fairly even in colour or has obvious holes. It could be the water is just going down the outside and not extracting much from the coffee. The plastic tamper is rubbish and way too small too. Mine was anyway.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

So at its finest setting it chokes the machine, but one click up from that and there is no crema...

Can you pull a shot at the finest setting it will work at and let us know how much espresso you get out in the 30 seconds it runs for. If you can measure exactly, great, otherwise just how much it fills an espresso cup.

Also watch a good pour on youtube and tell us how yours differs, other than the crema


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Waddy said:


> Ah sorry, still a rookie. It's supposedly at 15 bars


No need to apologise! I asked many far more daft questions than that myself. That the point of this great forum.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Where did you get the machine from? Did you get an engineers checklist before shipment if so it will tell you what the pump pressure is.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> So at its finest setting it chokes the machine, but one click up from that and there is no crema...
> 
> Can you pull a shot at the finest setting it will work at and let us know how much espresso you get out in the 30 seconds it runs for. If you can measure exactly, great, otherwise just how much it fills an espresso cup.
> 
> Also watch a good pour on youtube and tell us how yours differs, other than the crema


In 30 seconds its about 40-50ml per cup.

The stream is dark and watery, not creamy like it should be

I'm starting to think that it is a little too fine as I maybe should get a bit more in 30 seconds, but still, I should see crema.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Video! (or else it hasnt happened) : )


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

glevum said:


> Where did you get the machine from? Did you get an engineers checklist before shipment if so it will tell you what the pump pressure is.


This might be it.

'Pressure Release Valve Test: Maximum working pressure 12Bar (1200kPa)'


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

I'll see what I can do about getting a video up


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Right, well this is a shoddy video of the extraction. I have tried different tamps and grinds and this seems like the grind that comes out at the best speed. As you can see there is a thin layer of foam ontop but thats about it.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Where are you based Waddy?


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Glenn said:


> Where are you based Waddy?


Doncaster, but moving to Whitestaunton in a few weeks


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Not fine enough. Grind setting/quality looks at fault


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Not fine enough. Grind setting/quality looks at fault


Any finer and it chokes the machine. The grind seems consistent too


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Your grinder wont allow enough granularity between settings

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|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|--|


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

You could send off for a bag of pre-ground for espresso from hasbean, it wont be the perfect setting for your machine but it should be good enough to get a good shot.

Alternatively you could pop in to a taylors of harrogate and buy a small bag and get them to grind it to espresso grind.

Lastly, have a look at the grinder and see if there is any way to create smaller adjustments, perhaps with a spanner or pliers.

Oh and buy a metal tamper, you dont need an expensive one, less than £20 is fine.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> You could send off for a bag of pre-ground for espresso from hasbean, it wont be the perfect setting for your machine but it should be good enough to get a good shot.
> 
> Alternatively you could pop in to a taylors of harrogate and buy a small bag and get them to grind it to espresso grind.
> 
> ...


Pre-ground and a metal tamper will be my next move I think. There is an espresso repair place near by. I might take it into them to see if they get any better luck with the machine.

I understand the conditions aren't perfect with my grinder and portafilter. I just find it a bit odd the results are so far off from what they should be. Is there really that little room for error?


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

There really is not a lot of room for error no. I think garydyke1 has probably hit the nail on the head. I have a step-less grinder and the slightest adjustment really can be the difference between a poor and a decent shot. For sure though, some beans are less fussy than others. In my experience, the darker roasts are easier to get in the ballpark than the lighter roasts which Hasbean typically are. Pre ground could be a long shot (forgive the pun!) Not familiar with your grinder but my hand grinder (a Porlex) has quite big steps in the adjustment and not much use with my Cherub...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Waddy said:


> Pre-ground and a metal tamper will be my next move I think. There is an espresso repair place near by. I might take it into them to see if they get any better luck with the machine.
> 
> I understand the conditions aren't perfect with my grinder and portafilter. *I just find it a bit odd the results are so far off from what they should be. Is there really that little room for error*?


Welcome to espresso . The grind is absolutely key


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## photojonny (Jun 9, 2013)

I have a Hario Slim and am able to get a fine enough grind for espresso with crema that does not choke the machine. Is the Skerton really going from choking the machine on the finest setting to flowing too freely for crema one notch on? I found with the slim that the finest setting would choke, but that the next notch (with a solid metal tamp) is fine for a good brew time and crema.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

photojonny said:


> I have a Hario Slim and am able to get a fine enough grind for espresso with crema that does not choke the machine. Is the Skerton really going from choking the machine on the finest setting to flowing too freely for crema one notch on? I found with the slim that the finest setting would choke, but that the next notch (with a solid metal tamp) is fine for a good brew time and crema.


I'm still unsure, because the notch above the one that chokes the machine has a good if not slower than usual brew time, yet I am being told that I need to grind finer to get crema. Any setting lower than what I am using will result in a slower brew time. Probably 40 seconds plus.

So I don't really think it is size of the grind, and I doubt its because of the quality of it because if feels fine. So other than that it could be the tamp (which a tamp that comes with the actual machine should at least give some results), or there is a problem with the actual machine


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It really is more likely to be the grind , but you can try with tamp pressure , again I would recommend scales then you can keep your dose static and play around with the grind and tamp variable to see what effect it has . As a lot of people will say ,grind and grinder are absolutely key , and more important than the machine being used to make the coffee . A gs3 with a hand grinder will struggle , if you can't match the grind and then bean the machine a decent grinder with a 2nd hand silvia or gaggia can produce great results.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Waddy said:


> I'm still unsure, because the notch above the one that chokes the machine has a good if not slower than usual brew time, yet I am being told that I need to grind finer to get crema. Any setting lower than what I am using will result in a slower brew time. Probably 40 seconds plus.
> 
> So I don't really think it is size of the grind, and I doubt its because of the quality of it because if feels fine. So other than that it could be the tamp (which a tamp that comes with the actual machine should at least give some results), or there is a problem with the actual machine


If the shot tastes OK, what is wrong with a 40second brew time? How much are you getting out in 40 seconds? A lighter roast might only produce 25g or so? I'd run the 40second style shot again, just kill it at 30seconds...compare flavourwise (try it diluted with a little hot water too).

Are you getting absolutely nothing resembling any crema at any point? No treacly, thick, brown gunge at the start?

It's possible that there is a machine fault...but I don't think we are anywhere near close to eliminating all the more obvious things first.


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

I notice you have pretty much filled the two cups in the 30 seconds or so, two doubles out of one double basket. It is certainly is coming out pretty quick. So not surprised there is no crema. Is the clip from when you flip the brew switch? If so you are getting instant flow through the coffee again indicating grind is too course.

Please forgive me for asking this but when you say the finest setting is chocking the machine, how long have you typically allowed the brew cycle to run for with no coffee output before turning off? It's not unusual for around 10 seconds or so as there is a gradual build up of pressure to allow some pre-infusion on this machine. Thought I would ask and hope I am not telling you how to suck eggs as they say.

I am in Bournemouth which is a bit far from you unfortunately otherwise I would happily bring my grinder to yours.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> It really is more likely to be the grind , but you can try with tamp pressure , again I would recommend scales then you can keep your dose static and play around with the grind and tamp variable to see what effect it has . As a lot of people will say ,grind and grinder are absolutely key , and more important than the machine being used to make the coffee . A gs3 with a hand grinder will struggle , if you can't match the grind and then bean the machine a decent grinder with a 2nd hand silvia or gaggia can produce great results.


I think I agree with Mrboots2u in that it's more likely to be the grind.

I had similar issues when I first started out using a Porlex hand grinder that I'd got from Hasbean. The recommended settings for espresso (2-3 clicks from tightest) were completely choking the machine and it was only when I backed off the grind and started using settings similar to that used for cafetiere (6-7 clicks from tightest) that I started to get results resembling the right ball park. However I was getting a crema but it was wasn't

When I raised it with Hasbean they weren't a great deal of help and fobbed me off with don't worry about the grind settings its down to whether your making tasty coffee. As I didn't know my a*se from my elbow in regards to what coffee should taste like I took their experienced advice and carried on regardless. It was only when I later contacted Porlex directly in Japan that they immediately identified from my results that there was an issue with the matching of the the ceramic burrs. They very kindly shipped a set of new burrs without question from Japan free of charge which worked brilliantly on 2-3 clicks and made reasonable espresso. Fantastic customer service from Porlex I have to say.

The only issue I would say with using a hand grinder for espresso is that if you do get an ok shot say on click setting "3" then a shot on a setting either side of this (2 or 4) is way out if you try and tweak it.

Unfortunately the only way I got great results for espresso was by using a grinder that produces a more uniformed grind. This is what I ended up doing in the end after several weeks of disappointment.

I think a good way to rule out issues with the machine is to try pre-ground or have use of a grinder and see what happens. Weighing the shots would help if you can do it.

It is massively frustrating when it doesn't quite work. All the best


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## Don_your_hat (May 13, 2013)

If grinding is the issue, which it sounds as if it might be, one thing you could try is a mix of grind settings in the shot (say 25% too fine with 75% slightly too coarse). Although this is less than ideal because the grind distribution will not be even and therefore extraction will be uneven, but might be a better compromise than sticking with one setting. However it's not going to be a substitute for ensuring you have a quality grind, but just an idea may or may not help in the interim. One way to find out I guess... Good luck!


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

It probably won't be of much help but, FWIW, I found the transition from the Gaggia Classic to the Cherub a lot harder than I expected it to be. My Gaggia was pretty forgiving while the Cherub is less so. That said, once running properly, the Cherub is a great machine.

where I struggled most was with inconsistent shots. It's still a struggle at times. The key reasons, for me at least, seem to be the grind and the tamp.

I have a metal tamper and have always used it on both the Classic and the Cherub. Generally speaking I find that ultimate pressure is not the issue. It's important to get an even tamp. You will struggle to get that with the plastic one. With my metal tamp I can line up top side of the base with top of the porta filter and make sure that it is flat all around and then apply an even pressure. That's really tough with a plastic tamper.

By far though, the biggest component for me is the grind. With my Mignon, which is step less, I can set the grind any where. Now, I know it's all relative as each machine adjustment is different, but the Mignon, with its numbered thumb wheel, is all but useless. A single rotation of the wheel is 0 to 5. In all of the various beans that I have tried (admittedly, all from Union Roasted) the biggest variation in setting to achieve an acceptable grind is 0.3. I tend to work in 0.1 increments (judged by eye and with a little sticker placed on the casing). So, 1/60th of a revolution can make a significant difference to the coffee that comes out of my Cherub.

I agree with other posters that in the video the coffee looks weak and flushed through either channelling or too coarse a grind. I'm finding that to get a gloopy consistency I'm needing a pretty fine grind and I have to wait for about seven seconds or so for liquid to come out once I have thrown the switch. This is longer than the magic four and I'm hoping that this is not an issue. Interestingly, with a grind set to give me that, a 1/60th of a turn for a finer grind and what comes out is a thin trickle and, in twenty five seconds, I end up with about a quarter of the volume that I normally get when the grind is set to what seems right for me. Very sensitive to grind!

stick with it. The machine is great once you work it out.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Sorry for the late reply. Moving house so very busy.

Well, the video wasn't great, and I did start it off a few seconds after I started up the machine. I was going to do another better video but I have actually ran out of coffee.

The grind on the finer setting to the one in the video would start dripping maybe after 10-15 seconds, but very slow dark watery drips with no crema, and would probably take 2+ minutes to get a full cup.

I think i'm just going to wait and save up for a better grinder and a metal tamp and see what happens. If there is still no results, i'll get the machine replaced.

I'll let you know how things go when I get the upgrades, but won't be for a little while.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Best of luck with the move and the new grinder. Hope all goes well.


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

I have the self same problem, just upgraded from a gaggia baby class to a cherub and the shot is flowing almost immediately.

I am using an a espro calibrated tamper so the tamp pressure should be fine and yet no crema and the shot is very weak.

The same coffee (Hasbean) in the gaggia gives an almost perfect shot.

Very frustrating as I had all but mastered the Gaggia and it has taken weeks to persuade the wife that we need a better machine and now we are back to mediocre coffee at best.

i will watch this thread with interest


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

What grinder do you have?


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Stay with it. Just sounds like your grind. Grind finer or higher dosage depending what grinder you have


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Agree what grinder are you using with the cherub as the gaggia is really forgiving and you can get away with a mediocre grinder but nit so with the cherub


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Well, I have new a new tamper and different full bean and pre-ground coffee on the way to try out. My new grinder will hopefully be ordered within the next week, though I have ordered a skerton slim for now, as I can use it for when I go rock climbing. I'll let you know if I get any better results when the new tamp and coffee arrives.


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> What grinder do you have?


I get my coffee ground at the local Hasbean supplier, I will pop in today and ask him to try a few different grind settings and see if it makes any difference


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

Sharkie said:


> I get my coffee ground at the local Hasbean supplier, I will pop in today and ask him to try a few different grind settings and see if it makes any difference


Any tips on steaming with this beast? I had the Rancilio steam arm upgrade on the Gaggia and I was able to get a really nice microfoam, however the cherub heats the milk so quickly the milk does not seem to have time to stretch so I end up with either very hot milk with no microfoam or large bubbles floating on the surface of the milk that look more like my kids bath time bubbles.

i guess there is a huge learning curve with these prosumer machines, and there was me thinking they would make the job easier!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

what hole steam tip are you using?


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

and what size jug?


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

glevum said:


> and what size jug?


20 oz jug and 4 hole tip


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Sharkie said:



> Any tips on steaming with this beast? I had the Rancilio steam arm upgrade on the Gaggia and I was able to get a really nice microfoam, however the cherub heats the milk so quickly the milk does not seem to have time to stretch so I end up with either very hot milk with no microfoam or large bubbles floating on the surface of the milk that look more like my kids bath time bubbles.
> 
> i guess there is a huge learning curve with these prosumer machines, and there was me thinking they would make the job easier!


Yes, buy a 4x1mm Londinium steam tip.


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

poona said:


> Yes, buy a 4x1mm Londinium steam tip.


Just placed order for one, will update with results.

Thanks for advice much appreciated


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Well my beans have just arrived and i've given the pre-ground a shot. Still the same results. A good shot time, around 28 seconds, but no crema at all.

From everything I have seen on youtube and read about, even if your grind is a bit off, and it comes out a bit fast/slow, there is always crema. Whether it is coming out too fast or dripping out. With the grinds I have tried, the finer I go the darker the liquid. If it is dripping it is closest thing to black, and each notch up it just gets lighter.

I'm starting to think its a problem with the machine, especially scene as there is someone else with the same problem with a new machine now.

I have an espresso repair place close by. Should I take it to them to see if they have any luck or just call the manufacturer and see what they say?


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

Wait until the hand grinder arrives, if problem persists then maybe contact manufacturer.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Again with pre ground , it will be hit or miss as not dialled in for your machine . Whereabouts are you Waddy , the may be a helpful forum member who can pop round with a grinder to see if that resolves your problem . I used pre ground before my magnum arrived and the standard espresso setting even on a Ditting , didn't get me great coffee . Plus fresh ground coffee wil give massively better cream results, even if fresh ground on not quite the right setting . I'm not suggesting you need magnum to get good coffee, and you do have another hand grinder to come .

When I got my grinder I got a 10 second gusher but with massive crema , something I'd never got close to with pre ground of any variety .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There's also a raffle for a new mignion grinder on this forum too, that would give you great coffee with your machine . For £5 ticket , you'd get a 40-50 to 1 chance of a £240 plus grinder. Got to be worth a punt .


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Well I just gave the local repair place a call. He said exactly what I assumed. Because I need to grind the coffee quite course to get a decent speed, it would suggest that there isn't enough pressure in the pump. I will give Fracino a call. Honestly i'm 95% sure that it is a problem with the machine. Unfortunately Sharkie that is probably your problem too. Might be an issue with the recent production line, as they have made a few changes


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Waddy said:


> Well my beans have just arrived and i've given the pre-ground a shot. Still the same results. A good shot time, around 28 seconds, but no crema at all.
> 
> From everything I have seen on youtube and read about, even if your grind is a bit off, and it comes out a bit fast/slow, there is always crema. Whether it is coming out too fast or dripping out. With the grinds I have tried, the finer I go the darker the liquid. If it is dripping it is closest thing to black, and each notch up it just gets lighter.
> 
> ...


How much output are you aiming for? In your earlier video you appeared to be almost filling 2 demitasse cups. From a regular double dose you could be looking at anything from half a demitasse (~30ml) to almost filling it (55-60ml). Most folks would suggest aiming for the former. Im sure it's bneen mentioned before on this thread, but some cheap digital scales that measure down to 0.1g (500g/1kg max) would be very useful.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

I have ordered some scales, but i'm using a standard 7g scoop at the moment. Like I said I have tried it at different grinds, not just the one in the video. I refuse to believe that there is 1 grind in between all the ones I have tried that will magically produce lots of crema from absolute 0. Especially scene as every video I have seen where someone is calibrating the grind has been testing out different grinds to get a better crema, rather then 'aww no crema at all, lets take it down 1/100th of a notch'.

Honestly though, if the pressure is too low in the boiler, the results would be exactly as I am getting now


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Just to be clear, could you just define the shot volume, i.e. are you still filling two espresso cups in that 28 seconds, similar to the video you did before?


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Wobin19 said:


> Just to be clear, could you just define the shot volume, i.e. are you still filling two espresso cups in that 28 seconds, similar to the video you did before?


Not exactly to the brim, the ones in the video were indeed a bit full. If I take it down a notch it fills maybe 2/3 in 30 ish seconds


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

I think I overlooked something in the test certificate actually. It says the boiler pressure was tested at 3 Bar. Not exactly a proper test right?

Then again it says 'Pressure Release Valve Test: Maximum working pressure 12Bar'

I'm a bit lacking in knowledge on the technical side of things. Can anyone get anything from that?


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Ok Waddy, you are filling 2/3 rds of two cups in 28 seconds thats not a double that two doubles by my reckoning. So the flow MUST be way way too fast. I double is 2 oz ish which is only one of those cups perhaps 2/3rds full. From this I am still convinced you just need a finer grind.

I have the same machine as yours. Using an 17.5 -18g dose, I expect the first signs of coffee from the spouts after 8-12 seconds and one espresso cup to be around 2/3 full (a 28g shot) after a total of 25 -28 seconds after the switch is thrown.

I hope we can help you get this sorted and its not a faulty machine...


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

One more thought Waddy considering what I have already said, I would like to just get an idea of how much coffee you are loading in the basket. If you are using the supplied basket, I would expect it to be around 3 or 4mm below the ridge (not the top). It very well could be that you are under loading the basket...which will not provide enough resistance to the pump, resulting in a very fast flow. The boiler pressure is not the same as the pump pressure. Its the pump that works against the resistance of the compressed coffee thats the 13bar. The boiler is usually around 1 -1.3 bar and is the pressure shown on the gauge.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Wobin19 said:


> Ok Waddy, you are filling 2/3 rds of two cups in 28 seconds thats not a double that two doubles by my reckoning. So the flow MUST be way way too fast. I double is 2 oz ish which is only one of those cups perhaps 2/3rds full. From this I am still convinced you just need a finer grind.
> 
> I have the same machine as yours. Using an 17.5 -18g dose, I expect the first signs of coffee from the spouts after 8-12 seconds and one espresso cup to be around 2/3 full (a 28g shot) after a total of 25 -28 seconds after the switch is thrown.
> 
> I hope we can help you get this sorted and its not a faulty machine...


I'll see about getting another couple of videos up with 2 different grinds


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Waddy said:


> I have ordered some scales, but i'm using a standard 7g scoop at the moment.


Maybe I'm reading this wrong: One 7g scoop to 2/3 fill 2 espresso cups?


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

Sharkie said:


> I get my coffee ground at the local Hasbean supplier, I will pop in today and ask him to try a few different grind settings and see if it makes any difference


Just a quick update, I stopped by my local Hasbean supplier this morning and got him to set his grinder half a setting between espresso and Turkish, just ran a shot through my machine and the flow was much slower and I have a lovely layer of crema.

Just need to master the milk steaming


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

No no 2 7g scoops to fill 2 espresso cups.

I just had another crack at it. Videos were a fail. Trying to use my mothers Mac and haven't got a clue what to do. But anyways, I tried 2 notches from tightest and 1 notch from tightest, 2 notches was a bit fast, 1 was very slow, so I tried mixing the two (an idea someone gave me a few days ago). Not great I know, but worth a try. I got 1/3 of 2 2.5oz cups full in 30 seconds, with maybe 2-3mm of crema. The stream of coffee still was watery and its a long way from what it should be, but I guess its better than nothing. And to be honest, even the grind that was coming out too slow seemed a bit course for espresso.


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Waddy, I would be pleased to talk to you if you want to have a conversation. Just send me a PM and I will send you my number. I honestly think just some simple questions / answers could quickly get to the bottom of this. It is not impossible that its your machine but from the limited answers provided so far by you, I am confident it's dosing and output volume related.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Ah that's excellent news Sharkie. Maybe I was wrong after all. Time to wait for a new grinder


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sharkie said:


> Just a quick update, I stopped by my local Hasbean supplier this morning and got him to set his grinder half a setting between espresso and Turkish, just ran a shot through my machine and the flow was much slower and I have a lovely layer of crema.
> 
> Just need to master the milk steaming


Really glad to hear that sharkey, it's a bugger but grind is that finicky, and that key to success. When I was getting my pre ground I had to go to 2 clicks finer than espresso to get anything like good coffee and that was on a Ditting monster machine ! If you change bean tho , the grind may need tinkering with at your supplier.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Wobin19 said:


> Waddy, I would be pleased to talk to you if you want to have a conversation. Just send me a PM and I will send you my number. I honestly think just some simple questions / answers could quickly get to the bottom of this. It is not impossible that its your machine but from the limited answers provided so far by you, I am confident it's dosing and output volume related.


Honestly, I feel like i'm being a bit naive/ignorant, what ever you want to call it. I am new to this so I shouldn't jump to conclusions. I haven't got the gear I should to match the machine yet and i'm complaining that i'm not getting the results I want. I think its time to stop whining and wait for my gear. If I still end up with bad results after my new shiny equipment arrives then I will allow myself to whine some more







. But until then I think i'll just wait. Sorry for the bother! Thanks for all the help though.


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Really glad to hear that sharkey, it's a bugger but grind is that finicky, and that key to success. When I was getting my pre ground I had to go to 2 clicks finer than espresso to get anything like good coffee and that was on a Ditting monster machine ! If you change bean tho , the grind may need tinkering with at your supplier.


I think once funds allow that I shall be investing in a decent grinder for home so I can experiment with different settings rather than getting a whole bag ground to the same setting.

One step at a time tho as the wife has to get over the purchase of the cherub first not to mention the Loss of kitchen work top space!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Good luck sharkie. As someone who has recently had to go back to pre ground from my roaster, and then happily back to my own grinder, all I can say is the taste , appearance you will get is unbelievably better. As for the loss of work space, can't help you with that , I just kept moaning Til mrsboots gave up and let me buy what I wanted .


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

2 x 7g to fill two cups is very wrong indeed I am afraid.

This is your issue - you just confirmed it. 17 or 18g in the double basket for ONE double shot (maybe 2/3rds of ONE espresso cup) in 25-28 seconds is what you should expect if the dose / grind and tamp are correct.... Given you are using pre-ground, you can play with increasing the dose and tamp pressure and you should be able to get something more respectable.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Wobin19 said:


> 2 x 7g to fill two cups is very wrong indeed I am afraid.
> 
> This is your issue - you just confirmed it. 17 or 18g in the double basket for ONE double shot (maybe 2/3rds of ONE espresso cup) in 25-28 seconds is what you should expect if the dose / grind and tamp are correct.... Given you are using pre-ground, you can play with increasing the dose and tamp pressure and you should be able to get something more respectable.


Well I simple put 2 scoops from the measuring spoon provided into the grinder (I assument it was 7g, maybe more) and it fills the filter to the top, so I guess it must be more than 14g. I was using beans in my most recent tests.

Thing is at the speeds you are suggesting it should come out at, I am getting a very dark watery coffee with no crema. It seems weird, the finer I go the less crema.

I'll give a double shot 2/3s full another go at the finer setting and see what the results are.


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Well, as I suspected, very dark and watery. That will be my last test for now. I'll wait for my gear. I have wasted way too much coffee for my liking


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

Sharkie said:


> Just a quick update, I stopped by my local Hasbean supplier this morning and got him to set his grinder half a setting between espresso and Turkish, just ran a shot through my machine and the flow was much slower and I have a lovely layer of crema.
> 
> Just need to master the milk steaming


Just to throw in another variable I have discovered my bottomless portafilter from my Gaggia fits the Cherub and I have just gone back to my original espresso ground coffee that would hardly produce any crema and using the bottomless portafilter I now am getting good crema!

Go figure???


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Nut Nuts!!!

I'm not familiar with the Cherub so apologies for not being able to help you on this one....but just a thought.... are you using the same basket in the cherub portafilter as you're using in the Gaggia Bottomless portafilter?

I'm trying to rule out if its an issue with the basket or the size of the basket or if it's to do with the portafilter.

Can any Cherub users help out here?


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Nut Nuts!!!
> 
> I'm not familiar with the Cherub so apologies for not being able to help you on this one....but just a thought.... are you using the same basket in the cherub portafilter as you're using in the Gaggia Bottomless portafilter?
> 
> ...


No I am not using the cherub basket in the gaggia portafilter however I did try the gaggia basket in the cherub portafilter and the result was very poor crema


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## Waddy (Jun 10, 2013)

Well, I took my machine to the local espresso repair place to see if they could get any better results. We used a vario grinder and got slightly better results, but not great by any standards. He also pointed out (I was unsure about this when I got it as it seem a bit extreme) that it is EXTREMELY loud, way louder than it should be apparently.

So anyways I have given fracino a call and will be sending the machine back for repairs.

In the mean time, sell me your commercial grinders!


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Give Dave (coffeechap) a shout, he will have something that will fulfill your needs..


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Just seen the video. I had a cherub and trust me, you're pretty much just pouring water from that portafilter in that video. Get a good grinder. The cherub deserves it. I got good extractions using an MC2 but when I took the step up to the SuperJolly, the extractions were night and day. And once I changed the burrs to a new set of official Mazzer burrs, it notched up another level. Like Gary stated, the grind is the difference between success and failure.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Missed this one first time around and agree that the flow there is way to fast. Difficult to comment on the noise from the video but my pump isnt quiet when in use. I have to be accurate with my grind and tamp - I can go from a 20 second to a 40 second shot if I get these variables wrong. Stick with it and invest in the grinder - it will be worth it


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

Sharkie said:


> Just placed order for one, will update with results.
> 
> Thanks for advice much appreciated


Update on new steam wand tip that arrived today, have just tried it for the first time and the difference is like night and day. The microfoam it produces is fantastic.

i have to say I thought I had made a mistake upgrading to the cherub after mastering the Gaggia as my first attempts at pulling a decent shot and steaming milk were a total disaster, however the advice from you guys has been fantastic and I am now getting far superior coffee than I ever did on the Gaggia.

A big thanks to you all


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

Sharkie said:


> Update on new steam wand tip that arrived today, have just tried it for the first time and the difference is like night and day. The microfoam it produces is fantastic.
> 
> i have to say I thought I had made a mistake upgrading to the cherub after mastering the Gaggia as my first attempts at pulling a decent shot and steaming milk were a total disaster, however the advice from you guys has been fantastic and I am now getting far superior coffee than I ever did on the Gaggia.
> 
> A big thanks to you all


It seems like you've been through the same trials and tribulations that I have done. It will remain less forgiving than the Gaggia but for the improvement in milk steam efficiency alone is worth it. You will also start to find that the flavours in the coffee come out more as well.


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## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

Waddy said:


> Well, I took my machine to the local espresso repair place to see if they could get any better results. We used a vario grinder and got slightly better results, but not great by any standards. He also pointed out (I was unsure about this when I got it as it seem a bit extreme) that it is EXTREMELY loud, way louder than it should be apparently.
> 
> So anyways I have given fracino a call and will be sending the machine back for repairs.
> 
> In the mean time, sell me your commercial grinders!


Waddy did you ever get your issues with your new machine resolved?


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