# P I D or GICAR ? VERONA



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Turned the machine off last night all OK. Turned it on this morning power lights (green) come on but PID stays blank, tried turning off and on several times with same result. Opened case, checked all connections , nothing unusual, no signs of overheated connections or cables.No marks / burns on PID or Gicar no loose connections.

Any thoughts or suggestions ??


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Fuse between Gicar and PID? I've put such a fuse on some machines that I have DIY PID'd.

Is there power on the Gigar out terminal going to PID?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*Simplest thing is to check for loose power wiring from/to the PID* and double check the tank switch although I am pretty sure the PID stays on when low on water. It's possible something on the PID has failed, so opening that component and examining the board for obvious failure might be worth trying.

There were/are 2 types of Gicar PID, early Duettos used the PID with small Hahn transformers on board 240V down to 9-12V (can't remember exactly). These little transformers on the circuit board uses to fail, because they were not really rated for more than 55C and they were placed above the steam boiler (duh). My original Duetto (0001) has one of those, but because I added extra ventilation has not failed. I fixed one that had failed by unsoldering it from the board on the PID and using bell wire to offboard a transformer I bought a 12-15 volt AC to AC one from Maplins and use a resistor to pull the current down to around 7-9V (to make the display last longer). The low voltage AC is recitified by the rest of the components in the board.

If the PID circuit board does not have a step down transformer on it, then perhaps it's outboarded within the Verona (although I don't remember it being so and my archive photos don't show one.), trace the wires and look. On later models of the Duetto (with my advice), they outboarded the transformer.It was a long time ago I did the repair, so the details are Hazy. You could also get an Identical onboard transformer and solder a new one on the PID board...probably only cost a few £. *I would add that the PID on the Verona is not in a hot area and wouldn't suffer the extremes of heat on a Duetto, so the Hahn transformers should actually be fine, but you never know, might have just had a bad one.*


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

what an amazing response!

sorry to hear you've got problems Frank









hopefully fixable


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

The power supply to the PID is outboard between the pump and the front of the case (safe position). This should receive 240 v and deliver 12 v dc to PID

It is only getting 70 V ac (someone is nicking the rest







) resistance somewhere .I am untangling the rats nest in order to trace the cables.

PID board and Gicar board "appear" to be OK no burns or scorching. Resistance on brew boiler stat which promptly sheared off leaving the threaded section seized in the top of the boiler. OH WELL find me something to do:coffee:















 I need.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

To days task, un-bundle all the cables and trace exactly what goes where (R.P.I.A) job especially as some cables are "piggy backed" from other connections. Checked resistance end to end and end to connections. Cleaned PID and Gicar boards.

Checked 240 v supply to transformer 6 v . Live is fed from Gicar neutral from thermostat terminal on brew boiler via main switch.

Finally made up a fly lead to run from safety socket which the machine was plugged into..Switch on power to machine and transformer EUREKA

Machine lights and PID lights on:good:. Lift brew lever "O" zilch:confused: . Checking the wiring I find the supply to the brew switch is from the Gicar ( which is not supplying power to the transformer ) could this be the fault / problem ???

@ Dave C / @ Espresso techno is there a way to check / test Gicar's other than by substitution ??

Had to drill out and retap the brew boiler thermostat stud. But that is another story:rolleyes:

Had another thought, made up a fly lead and applied power direct to input side of Gicar = Absolutely nothing . Looks like new Gicar required. £££££


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I'm mightly impressed at your skills, no way I'd have been able to figure all this out.

good to see you're making progress


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

THE SAGA three weeks on . I had a discussion with Dave C on what might be the cause of the problem. Dave thought it most likely that a simple poor / bad connection or high resistance was probably the cause and visual and meter testing should show.

After untangling a cats cradle of cables I set about trying the individual cables to locate ends for testing.

I initially tested all fitted components, eg limit stats,transformer, SSR's, switches, hall sensor and heating elements all showing clean bill of health.

Next traced cables and checked end to end for continuity and insulation test and checked push fit "LUCARS" for fit and arcing, all proved fine:confused:

I even fitted a new Gicar controller without success . RE check / test everything again. NADA

Had a word with Jordan at BB and he was somewhat mystified and suggested taking it to BB for them to have a look at it.

Checked things again today without success, thought I will tidy up the cables and get it ready to box up and courier to BB. Refitted the original controller and bagged up the new one to send with the machine. Just try plugging in one more time---I DON'T BELIEVE IT. All lights on, PID lit up boilers heating.

Had coffee tonight all OK------ just as I went to turn it off the pump cut in normal.---- but did not turn off, turned off main switch, thats a job for tomorrow.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

that's frustrating! at least is heading in the right direction.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

It is surprising often that you take something apart, cant find a fault, put it back together and find it now working.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

After much head scratching and re-testing leads and components I thought that's it , pack it up and send to BB. Began reassembling and thought I will plug it into safety socket one more time !!!! Everything fires up:confused:






















. Check again, it turns out there is an INTERMITTENT fault on the brew switch operated by the brew lever. The wiring to this follows a somewhat diverse, tortuous route , linking Gicar, overheat stat transformer ,pump and indirectly S/ valve.

A call to BB and Jordan expedited the postage of a replacement switch. Fitted it last night, tidied up the wiring, fitted back frame and tank and fired it up. Had coffee from it last night and wondered what would happen this AM, it worked more coffee, tried again later, started then stopped














It just needed the water topping up, I had only partially filled the tank in case I needed to strip down again.

Still running fine tonight, just hope that there are no more glitches.

Thank's to Dave C, E /techno and Jordan.


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Great to hear, lets hope It's all sorted.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

El carajillo said:


> After much head scratching and re-testing leads and components I thought that's it , pack it up and send to BB. Began reassembling and thought I will plug it into safety socket one more time !!!! Everything fires up:confused:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm impressed Frank! Some good fault-finding skills there... but I love a challenge too, and your journey to fixing this sounds like just the thing I love to get my head around.

I've learnt, many times, after suspecting some of the most complex/costly components within a system (and working for ages to prove some illogical behaviour) - that, very often, it's the cheapest and simplest item that's at fault. Your issue is certainly testament to this.

Havent forgotten you - just still waiting for China BTW ;-)


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