# Stovetop or Microwaved milk - can this be classed as a flat white?



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

this thread has been created at a point where it had started to stray off post from a previous thread after post 8 on http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?12614-Is-it-a-flat-white-or-a-Latte

As I've always understood it a flat white is just steamed milk and a Latte has a very thin topping of foam. With my current equipment at home I'm unable to do steamed milk without foam and for my morning coffee I just microwave milk. That I would consider to be a flat white.

Probably depends on where you go: I know of at least two so-called specialist coffee shops which don't even know the difference between a Cappuccino and a Latte and disagree when I try to tell them.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> As I've always understood it a flat white is just steamed milk and a Latte has a very thin topping of foam. With my current equipment at home I'm unable to do steamed milk without foam and for my morning coffee I just microwave milk. That I would consider to be a flat white.
> 
> Probably depends on where you go: I know of at least two so-called specialist coffee shops which don't even know the difference between a Cappuccino and a Latte and disagree when I try to tell them.


There are 100's of varying descriptions of a flat white. They all agree it should contain textured milk, non advocate using a microwave!

If a coffee was served to me in a cafe that had been prepared using a microwave I'd send it back.

I appreciate currently your equipment will not allow you to steam milk - but unless you can texture the milk you may want to call it something other than "flat white". Having said that - everyman's home is his castle so if your happy to describe it that way carry on (but do try and find a decent cafe and sample a real one - your missing out on a real treat)


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Daren said:


> There are 100's of varying descriptions of a flat white. They all agree it should contain textured milk, non advocate using a microwave!
> 
> If a coffee was served to me in a cafe that had been prepared using a microwave I'd send it back.
> 
> I appreciate currently your equipment will not allow you to steam milk - but unless you can texture the milk you may want to call it something other than "flat white". Having said that - everyman's home is his castle so if your happy to describe it that way carry on (but do try and find a decent cafe and sample a real one - your missing out on a real treat)


So how would you suggest I make a flat white when I don't have a steam wand?

Here's a typical discussion I have:

"Excuse me, that a Latte not a Cappucino"

"No that's a Cappuccino"

"Should be third espresso, third steamed and third foam"

"oh no, our customers don't like a lot of foam on their cappuccino"

So the end result at that particular coffee shop is that a Cappucino is a Latte, a Latte is a Flat White and there is no difference between a Latte and a Flat White.


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> That's a cafe au lait, non? I agree with Daz, a flat white should have a bit of texture


No, a cafe au lait is where the espresso and milk are steamed together


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'm pretty sure cafe au lait is espresso + hot milk.

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk


----------



## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

Just to put another prospective on it, which is probably wrong, I thought a cafe au lait was made with strong drip/filter and hot milk. Maybe that's a traditional one, I dunno.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anthorn said:



> So how would you suggest I make a flat white when I don't have a steam wand?
> 
> Here's a typical discussion I have:
> 
> ...


 You canmake want ever drinks your heart desires , with whatever equipment you wish . I would respectfully suggest tho you don't make a milk drink using a micro wave and call it a latte or a flat white . It gives the wrong impression to others. I'm sure it tastes lovely to you , but a latte or a flat white ( by anyone's definition it isn't )


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Anthorn said:


> So how would you suggest I make a flat white when I don't have a steam wand?


Don't, treat it as a luxury you have when out. And they are fantastic when treat as such. I currently don't have a siphon I don't presume to call my v60 a siphon I have one when out.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> So how would you suggest I make a flat white when I don't have a steam wand?


Texture in milk is key. If you only have a microwave and don't want to jump up to a machine that steams then maybe consider trying to add texture using one of those plunger devices? I've never used one so can't say how good they are. It's never going to as good as using a steam wand though.

The ratios of milk to coffee I'll leave open for debate.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Genuinely I ordered a some kind of milk based drink (and this pic has been see before on here I apologise ). It was made by a man who put espresso in a cup added milk and then steamed it , in this cup . I call this a FAT WHITE ....just because people think they know how to make something doesn't meant will look or taste nice.....


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Daren said:


> Texture in milk is key. If you only have a microwave and don't want to jump up to a machine that steams then maybe consider trying to add texture using one of those plunger devices? I've never used one so can't say how good they are. It's never going to as good as using a steam wand though.
> 
> The ratios of milk to coffee I'll leave open for debate.


Great advice from Daren regarding the milk frother plunger things. I know several people who don't have steam and use these.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Urban genius as always , I should start calling you a Urbane tho for your eloquent use of language ( he he ) .


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Daren said:


> Texture in milk is key. If you only have a microwave and don't want to jump up to a machine that steams then maybe consider trying to add texture using one of those plunger devices? I've never used one so can't say how good they are. It's never going to as good as using a steam wand though.
> 
> The ratios of milk to coffee I'll leave open for debate.


I do have a Bialetti Foamer but I use a jar: Half fill with cold milk, shake till double, remove the lid and microwave it. To produce milk for a, say, a Latte the milk would be heated to boiling-over before making the coffee in a moka pot and that textures the milk. That's the way my Grandmother did it and that's the way I do it.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Heat the milk to boiling over? For a latte?


Yep , that's where you are going wrong , I expect to see this in places for the next round of the latte challenge .....


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Excellent, a good family tip. If it works for you and you like the results, that's the main thing.

Hopefully you'll be passing it onto your next generation


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Looks like Anthorn knows less about making drinks than he does about coffee machines.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

My gran never used to go above third gear in her car (even on motorways) but that's not how I choose to drive.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> My gran never used to go above third gear in her car (even on motorways) but that's not how I choose to drive.


My mum made a beef curry using oxo gravy , mince and some curry powder ( this is true and is one of her many legends recipes ) .


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I am going to retire gracefully from this particular thread as I can think of nothing constructive to say and am going to be more positive elsewhere on the forum.

Plus if my mum finds out I am divulging her recipes , il get a clip round the ear.

Anthorn , if the drinks you are making tasting good to you , then in many respects that's all that matters.

To the OP you do not make a flat white in a microwave or with boiling milk. I hope some of the advise on this helps you and is constructive and this doesn't turn into another pointless thread .

Adios ......


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Heat the milk to boiling over? For a latte?


Try it: You get textured milk and a bit of foam. But it has to be done before the coffee is made or otherwise the milk is too hot.

You can knock my gran all you like but it's a fact that this was the way it was done before pressure was increased (1954 I think) in espresso machine and before steam wands were invented. It was good enough for them so it's good enough for me.

To say that is not a Latte (or even a Cappuccino if the milk is frothed further) is like saying that old thing with wooden arms and legs is not a chair: Ridiculous!


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You must be at it.


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Sometimes I wonder if someone is on here fishing


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

It is what it is.

And what it is, is you making the best of what you've got in terms of equipment.

Nevertheless, most posters here are using modern machines with steam arms, and for us there is no point going backwards. As it stands, in terms of the history of food, espresso and cappucino have very little heritage, and therefore looking backwards for some kind of validity or historical affirmation isn't very appropriate. Things are still progressing fast.

Come back in 50 years


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't think anyone is knocking your gran anthorn!!!!!!

Once milk goes beyond a certain temperature (way before boiling) the composition changes, have you ever (and I am being serious here as I feel you could learn something) tried tasting milk at different temperatures? Please try it may be at 10 degree intervals, perhaps you could do this and report back to us your findings. What i propose you do is this

500 ml of milk

First 100 ml at 50 degrees, then each 100 ml after that at progressively hotter temperatures (60,70,80,90) try each one and report back on the flavour of the milk, you might be pleasantly surprised.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Knocking Anthorn's gran........hmmmmm


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> Try it: You get textured milk and a bit of foam. But it has to be done before the coffee is made or otherwise the milk is too hot.
> 
> You can knock my gran all you like but it's a fact that this was the way it was done before pressure was increased (1954 I think) in espresso machine and before steam wands were invented. It was good enough for them so it's good enough for me.
> 
> To say that is not a Latte (or even a Cappuccino if the milk is frothed further) is like saying that old thing with wooden arms and legs is not a chair: Ridiculous!


I do find your values vary depending on what battle your fighting. On the thread relating to the Gaggia Classic you seemed happy to berate it as you classed it as "Old technology" and said things had moved on - you said you was not prepared to settle for its antiquated design, that was despite us all saying the machine is the best in its class regardless of whatever advances may have been made.... however in this post your happy to say old ways from the 50's were good enough then and your happy to use them today. I'm confused?

Where are you based? I'm sure someone on here would be happy to show you what your missing. Trust me - once you've had a decent coffee made how it should be you will never look back. I do have to wonder if you have ever had a truly "great" coffee as you seem to be so far apart with your opinions to the rest of the forum. That wasn't meant to come over as an attack - I'm just trying to work out why you seem so far away with your opinions. All said - taste is personal I suppose, and that's what make us individuals.


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Daren said:


> I do find your values vary depending on what battle your fighting. On the thread relating to the Gaggia Classic you seemed happy to berate it as you classed it as "Old technology" and said things had moved on - you said you was not prepared to settle for its antiquated design, that was despite us all saying the machine is the best in its class regardless of whatever advances may have been made.... however in this post your happy to say old ways from the 50's were good enough then and your happy to use them today. I'm confused?
> 
> Where are you based? I'm sure someone on here would be happy to show you what your missing. Trust me - once you've had a decent coffee made how it should be you will never look back. I do have to wonder if you have ever had a truly "great" coffee as you seem to be so far apart with your opinions to the rest of the forum. That wasn't meant to come over as an attack - I'm just trying to work out why you seem so far away with your opinions. All said - taste is personal I suppose, and that's what make us individuals.


Getting an espresso machine is in process as I posted in that other thread: I have to wait for funds from my savings account - 30 days notice. The family is pretty much agreed on the Sylvia and a repair shop local to me can fit the PID and test the machine too.

But it's a fact that the same coffee was made without an espresso machine and without a steam wand and those methods were equally effective. Even going bang up to date, milk can be prepared using a hand blender. After all, all we do when we texture and froth milk is incorporate micro air bubbles.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Your right - milk can textured in other ways but not all things will be "equal". You will not get the same results using the 50's technique you describe or using a hand blender.

I'm pleased your getting a Silvia - I had one and they are great machines. Once you have it your long journey will begin and I'm sure after a lot of trial and error you will get the lovely textured milk we are referring to. At that point you will probably think to yourself "Now I get what they were all talking about" and realise it can't be replicated any other way.

A word of warning though - it takes a long time to master the milk texturing on a Silvia. It can be a frustrating experience, one that is ultimately worth the effort.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Anthorn said:


> Getting an espresso machine is in process as I posted in that other thread: I have to wait for funds from my savings account - 30 days notice. The family is pretty much agreed on the Sylvia and a repair shop local to me can fit the PID and test the machine too.
> 
> But it's a fact that the same coffee was made without an espresso machine and without a steam wand and those methods were equally effective. Even going bang up to date, milk can be prepared using a hand blender. After all, all we do when we texture and froth milk is incorporate micro air bubbles.


Balls.

There, I've said it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> Even going bang up to date, milk can be prepared using a hand blender. After all, all we do when we texture and froth milk is incorporate micro air bubbles.


Depends on what you mean by 'prepared'. A hand blender will not produce microfoam to the same consistency of properly stretched milk using a steam wand. That is a fact.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ok for the next Latte art comp only tools available , microwave, hand blender and pallet knife


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Gary, you missed out blowtorch.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

"Sir - How would you like your milk today? One lump or Two?"


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Anthorn said:


> So how would you suggest I make a flat white when I don't have a steam wand?


You can make many milky drinks but not one that could be classed as a flat white

Textured milk is required. The texturing comes from introducing air when the milk is cool, then blending the thinner milk with the velvety microfoam as the milk warms and volumises.

The steam wand - forcing heated air through a small pipe and out of between 1 and 5 holes - and the varying depth of the steam wand in the milk, allows the barista to create and control the amount of foam created, the amount blended and the overall texture of the milk.

It is not possible to pass off stovetop milk as suitable for a flat white. But if you believe it is, then you are entitled to that opinion. This belief is not likely to be shared by (m)any members.

I appreciate you do not have a machine with steaming capacity, but I assure you that when you do, you will see the difference and realise that what you have currently is just hot milk with air mixed in. The texture will be totally different.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Temperature is a huge part of a good milk drink, for me it makes or breaks it. Get it wrong and you lose texture, flavour and aroma.

Raise the temperature too high (over 65c for my taste) and the milk loses its sweetness, smells like porridge and the structure collapses and separates into hot thin milk and macrofoam (if youre lucky). The kind of thing youre likely to see in those big chains who then dust it with chocolate and smile at you whilst robbing you of your hard-earned money.


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

This thread has been made using my reply in a different thread as the opening thread and that is not stated by the person who did that.

Glenn, what you're saying is that such things as a flat white and Latte can only be made using an espresso machine and steam wand. But they were made before espresso machines and steam wands became available for the home. It may also come as a surprise to you that Lattes and Cappuccinos in Ecuador and other parts of Central and South America are made using filter coffee and frothers or just plain hot milk.

But in any case why do we call it a flat white? Because the milk is flat!


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

''A flat white is similar to the Spanish Cafe con Leche, but the Cafe con Leche uses scalded milk. In a flat white the milk is steamed to 60°-70°C (140°F-158°F). Steaming the milk to a lower temperature retains the fats and proteins in the milk which retain a sweet flavour, lost when milk is steamed to scalding temperatures. A Cafe con Leche also lacks the head of microfoam.''


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Genuinely I ordered a some kind of milk based drink (and this pic has been see before on here I apologise ). It was made by a man who put espresso in a cup added milk and then steamed it , in this cup . I call this a FAT WHITE ....just because people think they know how to make something doesn't meant will look or taste nice.....


I'm amazed he managed to get the foam white if he mixed it into the espresso BEFORE steaming it.


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Anthorn, it was me (as forum owner and moderator) who split the thread. You had started to stray off topic and this debate merited its own thread.

We are in the UK and the terms latte, cappuccino and flat white are used as terms to describe different drinks - with varying ratios of milk density

If you go to other countries they will have different meanings for latte et al.

I am well aware that other cultures have different names and terminology for their drinks, and at no time have dismissed this.

I am not stating that a flat white and latte can only be made using a steam wand - as clearly some people have different interpretations of what each drink is.

If you believe that is what you are creating then of course you are right.

However, I will not be changing my mind as to what each drink ratio should conform to when preparing milky drinks.

A flat white is not called a flat white because the milk is flat


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Glenn said:


> Anthorn, it was me (as forum owner and moderator) who split the thread. You had started to stray off topic and this debate merited its own thread.
> 
> We are in the UK and the terms latte, cappuccino and flat white are used as terms to describe different drinks - with varying ratios of milk density
> 
> ...


Strictly speaking it's Italian and not English. I think I've already displayed my woes about it being English and not Italian in other parts of the forum. To add to that much of our English Italian coffee is in Italy coffee for Children. But I digress.

The point that I'm trying to get over is that no-one has to spend hundreds if not thousands of pounds for espresso equipment because it can be done by other means as it has been done and is still being done in Italy without such equipment.

I use a screwdriver for a screw but the job can be done equally well using a knife.


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Anthorn said:


> Strictly speaking it's Italian and not English. I think I've already displayed my woes about it being English and not Italian in other parts of the forum. To add to that much of our English Italian coffee is in Italy coffee for Children. But I digress.
> 
> The point that I'm trying to get over is that no-one has to spend hundreds if not thousands of pounds for espresso equipment because it can be done by other means as it has been done and is still being done in Italy without such equipment.
> 
> I use a screwdriver for a screw but the job can be done equally well using a knife.


At the risk of blunting the knife and deforming the screw head.

And its never going to be as tight or secure.

So yes, technically the end result will be a screw which has been screwed, but a job that only half job harry and his wife lazy jane would love.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> I use a screwdriver for a screw but the job can be done equally well using a knife.


The screwdriver you refer to wouldn't be a Birmingham screwdriver by any chance???


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

No-one is ever forced to spend money on their hobbies

Many come here for inspiration and walk away with a new machine - often at less than they were intending to pay.

We welcome all forms of discussion and have a brewed coffee section for those who enjoy the simplicity of brewed coffee - no machine required


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Kyle548 said:


> At the risk of blunting the knife and deforming the screw head.
> 
> And its never going to be as tight or secure.
> 
> So yes, technically the end result will be a screw which has been screwed, but a job that only half job harry and his wife lazy jane would love.


BINGO!

You can call nescafe shaken up in a cocktail shaker a cappucino. It's not.... but you can call it that if you want.


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> The screwdriver you refer to wouldn't be a Birmingham screwdriver by any chance???


What I said, but eloquently put.


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Glenn said:


> No-one is ever forced to spend money on their hobbies
> 
> Many come here for inspiration and walk away with a new machine - often at less than they were intending to pay.
> 
> We welcome all forms of discussion and have a brewed coffee section for those who enjoy the *simplicity* of brewed coffee - no machine required


Yea.

'Simplicity'.

Right.

That's exactly what we enjoy about brewed coffee.


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Glenn said:


> Anthorn, it was me (as forum owner and moderator) who split the thread. You had started to stray off topic and this debate merited its own thread.


Yes, I guessed that and you put in the title too. But where in any of my posts do I say "Stovetop milk"? Quote please.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> Strictly speaking it's Italian and not English. I think I've already displayed my woes about it being English and not Italian in other parts of the forum. To add to that much of our English Italian coffee is in Italy coffee for Children. But I digress.
> 
> The point that I'm trying to get over is that no-one has to spend hundreds if not thousands of pounds for espresso equipment because it can be done by other means as it has been done and is still being done in Italy without such equipment.
> 
> I use a screwdriver for a screw but the job can be done equally well using a knife.


A flat white is NOT an Italian drink, it originates from the Southern Hemisphere do the research dude then you will come across a lot better


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Anthorn said:


> The point that I'm trying to get over is that no-one has to spend hundreds if not thousands of pounds for espresso equipment because it can be done by other means as it has been done and is still being done in Italy without such equipment.


The flat white is an antipodean drink and i'm pretty sure they all use machines for it.



Anthorn said:


> Yes, I guessed that and you put in the title too. But where in any of my posts do I say "Stovetop milk"? Quote please.


How else do you get your milk way past boiling?


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I have added Microwaved milk. You started taking the thread off topic - a title had to go in. End of.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Time for a new take?

Remember where the drink comes from!

Only then will you understand

Latte is latte flat white is flat white

Love the drink you make the best..........


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm off to nail something up I shall use my head instead of a hammer it'll do the job, right?


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I might join you geordie


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

geordie-barista said:


> I'm off to nail something up I shall use my head instead of a hammer it'll do the job, right?


Use a Birmingham Screwdriver. no offence taken by the way Systemic Kid


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

They say a picture says a thousand words. So here's a quick photo I did which includes the equipment used. The Latte is not perfect by any means but it illustrates my points I think and even includes a feeble attempt at latte art: Coffee used Lavazza Crema e Gusto (dark roast); milk done by half filling a jar with cold milk, fitting the lid, shaking till doubled, removed lid and microwave. Yes I do see the finger prints on the saucer


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> They say a picture says a thousand words.]


Indeed it does:act-up: You've produced foamed milk (witness the visible bubbles) which isn't the same as microfoamed milk which is a prerequisite of a flat white. This is why your foamed milk sits on top of the coffee.


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Indeed it does:act-up: You've produced foamed milk (witness the visible bubbles) which isn't the same as microfoamed milk which is a prerequisite of a flat white. This is why your foamed milk sits on top of the coffee.


It's not a flat white, it's a Latte as stated and I already said I know it's not perfect.


----------



## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

*hope this does not offend anybody


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Please keep this going, it's amazing entertainment. I've been out shopping in the supermarket , I've spent over £100 on food that will last me three days . My step son was in a tantrum all round, so far today has been no a good one but This has cheered me up immensely


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Anthorn said:


> It's not a flat white, it's a Latte as stated and I already said I know it's not perfect.


No it isn't.

A Latte used steamed milk. You didn't steam it.

What you have there is a moka coffee with hot shaken milk.

Anyway, enough of this. I'm off to put the joint of roast lamb in the oven


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

That looks amazingly like the cow of Pink Floyd's Atom Heart Mother.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Its not a cow, its a lamb


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Expobarista said:


> No it isn't.
> 
> A Latte used steamed milk. You didn't steam it.
> 
> ...


So how was a Latte made before steam wands became available? Anyway I'm just repeating myself now so I'm off. Just goes to show we can't teach anyone who already knows everything.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> Its not a cow, its a lamb


Ah, thanks for pointing that out:act-up:


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> Just goes to show we can't teach anyone who already knows everything.


Exactly well said


----------



## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

gosh people, just check wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latte

things do evolve, if you want to do an "old fashioned" milk + coffee drink use a jar. if you have a way of producing a more luxurious drink, you would be an idiot (sorry) if you are using a jar. but not all milky coffee drinks are born the same.

peace!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Be sure to tune in next week folks, for another round of "Vaguish, slightly intangible concepts subjected to rigorous, specific & over-zealous definition"...future episodes:

"Toads - are they just warty frogs?"

"When does a sardine officially become a pilchard?"

"Chocolate sandwich biscuits & American whisk(e)y - boorbon or burbun"

"Gnomes - just dwarves with a fishing rod?"

Really guys...I mean, really?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Surely gnomes are midgets with fishing rods not dwarves ........


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I used a conventional espresso machine and grinder to create my version of a flat white . 29g of espresso into a 5oz cup topped up with microfoam topped milk . 60c . Microfoam approx 3mm deep


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Surely gnomes are midgets with fishing rods not dwarves ........


I'm pretty sure dwarf has a pretty excluding medical definition anyway.

Midget on the otherhand...

Now theres the real question, are midgets not just gnomes without fishing rods?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I used a conventional espresso machine and grinder to create my version of a flat white . 29g of espresso into a 5oz cup topped up with microfoam topped milk . 60c . Microfoam approx 3mm deep


Gary stop showing off with your post World War Two techniques skills and machines ....


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I am so glad this has taken a serious tone finally


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> They say a picture says a thousand words. So here's a quick photo I did which includes the equipment used. The Latte is not perfect by any means but it illustrates my points I think and even includes a feeble attempt at latte art: Coffee used Lavazza Crema e Gusto (dark roast); milk done by half filling a jar with cold milk, fitting the lid, shaking till doubled, removed lid and microwave. Yes I do see the finger prints on the saucer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've just logged back on to catch up on this.... You are right - your picture paints a thousand words. Thanks for sharing. You have proved a point (although we will differ on who's)


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tut, tut - 'midget' is proscribed - it's 'person of restricted growth'.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

So, what's an elf?


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Its a mythical being...like an Imp.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Next your going to tell me Father Christmas's helpers are mythical... As if


----------



## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Glad to see you're getting along nicely gnomes, elves and the like.

What about trolls?


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Daren said:


> I've just logged back on to catch up on this.... You are right - your picture paints a thousand words. Thanks for sharing. You have proved a point (although we will differ on who's)


I agree, opinions differ. The way I make a latte is the way I was taught to do it: When textured milk is poured into the coffee a head is created. with Moka coffee that head is weak whereas with espresso and its crema that head is stronger. It's on top of the head that the white foam or latte art rests. But when I look at photos of lattes in their latte glasses I see something akin to Nesquik and I think most novices will strive towards that. But at the end of the day what matters is what hits our own tongue.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Opinions do differ , my mrs is arguing with me that it's dwarves with fishing rods for gnomes not midgets.......


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

So what were those things in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?

Were they real?


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Expobarista said:


> So what were those things in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?
> 
> Were they real?


Spoilt children, yes they do exist.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Expobarista said:


> So what were those things in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory?
> 
> Were they real?


Dunno I was ina pub 5 years ago and it go flash mobbed by a load of people dressed as pukka umpalumpas . It was one of the weirdest things, though I was having a flash back ( again ) ......


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Dunno I was ina pub 5 years ago and it go flash mobbed by a load of people dressed as pukka umpalumpas . It was one of the weirdest things, though I was having a flash back ( again ) ......


Stick to soft drinks Boots - we've heard that excuse before.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Stick to soft drinks Boots - we've heard that excuse before.


Your the one old enough to have lived thro the 60s....


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I made my own acid once out of nail-polish remover, milk, and fertiliser.

My gran showed me how.

If it was good enough for her....


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Your the one old enough to have lived thro the 60s....


Yeah man, but I don't remember cos I was there and, as Country Joe and the Fish sung, 'don't bogart that joint, my friend'.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> I made my own acid once out of nail-polish remover, milk, and fertiliser.
> 
> My gran showed me how.
> 
> If it was good enough for her....


Absolutely priceless - LOL


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Expobarista said:


> I made my own acid once out of nail-polish remover, milk, and fertiliser.
> 
> My gran showed me how.
> 
> If it was good enough for her....


Expo - genius my undying respect . Hail the expo


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Sure that's not your mum


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Sure that's not your mum


That's why he won't let you take a photo for the my set up page ,like mother like son ......


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> I made my own acid once out of nail-polish remover, milk, and fertiliser.
> 
> My gran showed me how.
> 
> If it was good enough for her....


Am I on my own finding her strangely attractive?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

"Am I on my own finding her strangely attractive?"

Yes Daren,you are on your own, in more ways than one , with the possible exception of the voices in your head ....


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Daren said:


> Am I on my own finding her strangely attractive?


Burn my eyes out!


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Phwoarrrr GILF


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Sure that's not your mum


Well I know it's not yours


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)




----------



## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Tut, tut - 'midget' is proscribed - it's 'person of restricted growth'.


No it's not. It's someone who's vertically challenged.


----------



## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

You do all realise that Anthorn is one of us with a different username on a wind up mission don't you? Most people who join a forum spend time reading and learning first, then if they like the people and feel they have something to contribute, join and participate. No-one does this then comes on and tells everybody Lavazza is the finest coffee because it sells well in Italy and you make a flat white by shaking a half filled pot of milk and banging it in a microwave, oh, and not forgetting that wonderful enlightenment that a flat white is actually Italian and not Antipodean like everybody, including the Italians, thought.

I've seen it on just about every forum I've ever been on, and believe me, it's funny now, but it gets boring very quickly.


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

cold war kid said:


> You do all realise that Anthorn is one of us with a different username on a wind up mission don't you? Most people who join a forum spend time reading and learning first, then if they like the people and feel they have something to contribute, join and participate. No-one does this then comes on and tells everybody Lavazza is the finest coffee because it sells well in Italy and you make a flat white by shaking a half filled pot of milk and banging it in a microwave, oh, and not forgetting that wonderful enlightenment that a flat white is actually Italian and not Antipodean like everybody, including the Italians, thought.
> 
> I've seen it on just about every forum I've ever been on, and believe me, it's funny now, but it gets boring very quickly.


Is this an admission of guilt


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> Well I know it's not yours


She did mention the ugly oompa loompa


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It's not me , or is it, or is it the voice in my head , am I in latte club ? Who is real . What is real ? Where's my mummy .....


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

cold war kid said:


> You do all realise that Anthorn is one of us with a different username on a wind up mission don't you?


If that is the case then both usernames may end up with some time spent away from the forum.

This type of behaviour goes against the spirit of openness that the forum enjoys.


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> It's not me , or is it, or is it the voice in my head , am I in latte club ? Who is real . What is real ? Where's my mummy .....


Don't forget the first rule of latte art club! You're going to wake up some day and realise you've created an alter ego for yourself on here and organised a worldwide plan to take down starbux


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Glenn said:


> If that is the case then both usernames may end up with some time spent away from the forum.
> 
> This type of behaviour goes against the spirit of openness that the forum enjoys.


Can you compare IP addresses?


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> She did mention the ugly oompa loompa


To be honest I don't remember her turning round for a look


----------



## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Neill said:


> Is this an admission of guilt


I'm guilty of many, many things, but this isn't one of them.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

My mistake it was dad hidden in the cupboard, only got a glimpse as it was rapid


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Sure was!

She knows a trick or two...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Neill said:


> Can you compare IP addresses?


Oo-er, seems a bit "enemy of the state" kind of behaviour...I mean it's, ahem, no use spying over spritzed milk? ;-)


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh yes she does!!!


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Oo-er, seems a bit "enemy of the state" kind of behaviour...I mean it's, ahem, no use spying over spritzed milk? ;-)


Boom boom. I like it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

cold war kid said:


> No it's not. It's someone who's vertically challenged.


Quite right Cold War Kid - I stand (not very high) corrected!


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Oh yes she does!!!












OK, you win!


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Neill said:


> Can you compare IP addresses?


Yes, but I'd prefer not to...


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Glenn said:


> Yes, but I'd prefer not to...


Yeah, fair enough. Good to know you exercise some ethics with our data!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think, that just because someone else thinks that they are doing things correctly, then that is fine in the context of their own home but once you step out of that barrier, then it does not stack up.

How many times have you had a discussion with your mother for it to end, I am your mother, do as I say!

The definition for cappas, lattes and the like is that they use textured milk produced on a machine with steam capability. If there were no steam machines around when the learned members mother was making her version, then by definition she could not have been making a latte........a bit like Mock Turtle soup during the war.


----------



## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

Interesting read. The irony of some of his posts have certainly raised a smile this end.

What does make me shake my head though is that he does not want to accept or learn any of the methods currently being used, yet is going to buy a Silvia..... I can see the threads now where people give advice on how to steam and Microfoam for him to completely ignore it and go his own way which is fine.

But coming on a forum full of knowledgable people with a wealth of experience and just not taking any advice, winding up numerous people and then waffling what in some cases is just utter rubbish is outstanding.

However it is a running theme it seems with his posts. Perhaps this is NOT the place for him? Does seem to upset the Apple cart rather often....


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Fetch the blazing torch....


----------



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

There you go........some of you wanted his picture:exit:


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The definition for cappas, lattes and the like is that they use textured milk produced on a machine with steam capability. If there were no steam machines around when the learned members mother was making her version, then by definition she could not have been making a latte........a bit like Mock Turtle soup during the war.


But you and most other people in this thread are missing my main point in that it was not always done in that way and can in fact be done without such equipment by substituting simple alternatives. It may also come as a surprise to most people who have bought a frother for, say, £36 that a jar produces a better result with a finer more dense foam! It may also come as a surprise to most people saying they are producing Italian coffee with their lattes and cappuccinos that they are in fact producing American coffees and that includes Italian Baristi.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I preferred it when we were talking about gnomes , fishing rods , dwarves and home made drugs...........


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Anthorn said:


> But you and most other people in this thread are missing my main point in that it was not always done in that way and can in fact be done without such equipment by substituting simple alternatives. It may also come as a surprise to most people who have bought a frother for, say, £36 that a jar produces a better result with a finer more dense foam


You can make a pizza out of a slice of bread, some ketchup and a dairylea cheese triangle












> It may also come as a surprise to most people saying they are producing Italian coffee with their lattes and cappuccinos that they are in fact producing American coffees and that includes Italian Baristi.


I doubt it would come as a surprise to anyone here


----------



## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

twistywizard said:


> What does make me shake my head though is that he does not want to accept or learn any of the methods currently being used, yet is going to buy a Silvia..... I can see the threads now where people give advice on how to steam and Microfoam for him to completely ignore it and go his own way which is fine.


Ridiculous argument; How do you suggest I learn how to do it when I don't yet own such equipment. But I don't necessarily accept all of the advice relating to espresso machines that I read on this forum and I've read a lot it of including the articles. An example is to grind fine, period. But what if we're making a caffè lungo?


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

You just run more water through it. Double the extraction time.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Expobarista said:


> You can make a pizza out of a slice of bread, some ketchup and a dairylea cheese triangle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now I come to see that picture , I see it is more dwarf like than midget . I stand corrected .


----------



## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> Ridiculous argument; How do you suggest I learn how to do it when I don't yet own such equipment. But I don't necessarily accept all of the advice relating to espresso machines that I read on this forum and I've read a lot it of including the articles. An example is to grind fine, period. But what if we're making a caffè lungo?


You do not accept ANY of the advice it seems from any thread I have read with you involved including the Gaggia one. If you think the Silvia will be very much easier to use than the Classic well you are making a very expensive mistake. This is coming from someone who has gone from Classic to Silvia to Ascaso to Expobar Brewtus. You stated the Gaggia is an obsolete design yet are going to buy a machine for over twice the money they works on EXACTLY the same principle which is laughable.

You seem to enjoy conflict and trying to prove incredibly knowledgable and helpful people wrong when they are usually very much right.

That is correct you grind fine *enough* to produce the end result you require. No one has stated you must grind very fine all the time, simply fine enough to produce an Espresso shot for the particular drink you are making. Also evidenced numerous times is sometimes pulling a shot longer or shorter will be beneficial. I agree with that.

The PACT Espresso when pulled longer with a tighter grind produced an amazing cherry tasting espresso that worked lovely in milk. When I stopped it at around 28 secs it was just average.

I would advise going to the Daily Mail website and read some of their coffee equipment reviews if they do them. Think they would suit you more....

I have this image of a very angry man bashing his Keyboard in an angry manner to all these coffee snobs and idiots wearing a Lavazza T-Shirt while his milk is bubbling and boiling on the cooker top.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

How can your mother have made something before it was invented? The terms cappuccino, latte etc came about with the advent of espresso machines, as variations. If your mother was making something before they were invented, then she was not making a latte,, but coffee with milk that has been shaken in a jar.

To suggest that milk, properly textured is inferior to your jar effort, just makes you look a twat, but I guess whilst we can all see that, you cannot........never mind.

Tell me, when you buy your Sylvia, will you still use your jar?


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I think it's best if we can agree to disagree on this subject, otherwise I think were just going to be going over the same ground.

This way we can continue with the other subjects such as Gnome stuff....I cant believe no-ones mentioned Hobbits.


----------



## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

Someone had to say it..



dfk41 said:


> just makes you look a twat, but I guess whilst we can all see that, you cannot........never mind.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I think it's best if we can agree to disagree on this subject, otherwise I think were just going to be going over the same ground.
> 
> This way we can continue with the other subjects such as Gnome stuff....I cant believe no-ones mentioned Hobbits.


As but they aren't real are they ,hobbits that is . Gnomes are real , they fish and are In people's gardens . Dwarves I'm not so sure off.


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I think it's best if we can agree to disagree on this subject, otherwise I think were just going to be going over the same ground.
> 
> This way we can continue with the other subjects such as Gnome stuff....I cant believe no-ones mentioned Hobbits.


Indeed....no need for any nastiness here. Doesn't do anyone any favours.

I think Anthorn needs to reflect on the fact that he has come to a coffee forum. (A coffee forum, for Chrissakes! Is there anything more ludicrous!) populated by people who obsess to a ridiculous degree over their coffee.

We've all been to Italy, Coffee chap lives there half the time, I have a summer residence there.....we know what Italian coffee is.

We also know that Italian coffee is extremely limited, and that Italians are very limited in their outlook. Italian coffee is cheap, and easy to extract. Many of us are roasters, most of us have been to a roaster.

We aren't stupid, and frankly the sort of things you are coming out with sound like somebody at the beginning of their journey into learning about coffee.


----------



## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

Anthorn said:


> But you and most other people in this thread are missing my main point in that it was not always done in that way and can in fact be done without such equipment by substituting simple alternatives. It may also come as a surprise to most people who have bought a frother for, say, £36 that a jar produces a better result with a finer more dense foam! It may also come as a surprise to most people saying they are producing Italian coffee with their lattes and cappuccinos that they are in fact producing American coffees and that includes Italian Baristi.


I think athorn just is mistakenly thinking that all coffee with milk that has been given "texture" can be called Latte (or cappuccino).

if one look at the origin of the term latte= milk, caffelatte =coffee with milk, you may even be right. but then all the other iterations would be called latte (no need for cappas bladibladibla).

According to Wiki the current uses for the term latte:

"In Italy, caffelatte is almost always prepared at home, for breakfast only. The coffee is brewed with a stovetop Moka pot and poured into a cup containing heated milk. (Unlike the international latte drink, the milk in the Italian original is not foamed.)

Outside Italy, a caffè latte is typically prepared in a 240 mL (8 oz) glass or cup with one standard shot of espresso (either single, 30 mL, or double, 60 mL) and filled with steamed milk, with a layer of foamed milk approximately 12 mm (½ inch) thick on the top. *A caffè latte may also be served consisting of strong or bold coffee (sometimes espresso) mixed with **scalded milk** in approximately a 1:1 ratio.**[10]* The drink is similar to a cappuccino, the difference being that a cappuccino consists of espresso and steamed milk with a 20 mm (¾ inch) layer of thick milk foam. An Australian variant similar to the latte is the flat white, which is served in a smaller ceramic cup with the micro-foamed milk. In the United States this beverage is sometimes referred to as a wet cappuccino."

I just like to point out is that the Definition of Latte to a modern barista is the one that most people on this forum recognizes using steamed milk. Other definitions exist. but in reality they are much different drinks and provide different experiences.

now can someone make me a Latte? or do I need to go and use my microwave to scald some milk and mix it with Azera barista instant coffee?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm really not sure that this thread is worth anyone's times or frustrations , anger or otherwise . I'd rather spend my time helping people . Let's just disagree and move on. It's better to starve a fire of oxygen , than throw petrol (derp not water ) on it .

I preferred a happy forum.......


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

It is very rare that I need to step in and mediate but this thread has gone far enough

Despite the best efforts of some to lighten the tone on the thread there appears to be a level of disagreement that cannot be reconciled

Traditional definitions of a latte can be debated all day and night but it takes all parties to listen to the other parties side - this is clearly not happening here

Please lets bring an end to this without me locking the thread or messaging anyone with words of advice


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Just to add my 2p to this hmm discussion on espresso based milk drinks. The 1st time I came across the term flat white was back in 1990 whilst visiting my Father who had emigrated to Australia 6 months previously, we decided to have a coffee before we left Sydney airport and he ordered us 2 flat whites, having never heard of this before I asked what one was. His description, which seemed to hold true for all the cafes etc I visited on that trip, was that it was a white coffee served in a cup that did not have the same amount of foam as a cappuccino or a latte and unlike a latte was served in a ceramic cup not a glass. I also recall that none of the flat whites I was served then was like the drink we now call a flat white.

As Ricardo posts above what Anthorn is making is a coffee with milk ie a caffelatte in Italian terms and not a Latte which it appears in it's current guise was invented in the USA in the 1950s. Another point that he seems to completely ignore was that the modern incarnation of the espresso machine was being made in the 1950s. In fact Achille Gaggia was granted his patent for an espresso machine in 1938 and founded the company Gaggia in 1947. Prior to his designs and patents there were other machines made to make "espresso" or quick coffee, these mainly used steam to force water through the coffee to produce a drink, the same principle as the modern machines we all call "steam toys" so as they had a boiler at steam temperature these machines also were used to steam milk for drinks.


----------

