# How much do your beans cost?



## UncleNathan (Oct 1, 2018)

Hey everyone.

How much do you spend on your beans?

I today spent £12 on 250g for an Honduras Single Origin.

Its by far the best coffee I've ever had.


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## Diggy87 (Sep 20, 2017)

My usual beans are £4.50 per 250g from a local small batch roaster


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

UncleNathan said:


> Hey everyone.
> 
> How much do you spend on your beans?
> 
> ...


Was that retail from a coffee shop by any chance?


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Are you saying that the quality of the coffee is reflected in the price?

To a certain extent that is true but not entirely accurate since green coffee from different origins reflect market price not just quality. Cup score is an independent assessment of bean quality.

E.g I just paid £11 for 1kg of a green coffee from DR Congo and £30 for 1kg from Costa Rica. Both have almost identical cup scores. Which is the better coffee is subjective but the price reflects what the coffee market pays. Some origins simply cost more than others because consumers will pay more for their coffees. Kenya is a good example of this. Generally they cost more than other African origins but whether they are "better" is moot.

I prefer to buy from roasters that publish the cup scores of their coffee in addition to the "story" of the coffee. If neither is present then I'm really dubious about the quality.


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## Dr Forinor (Jul 30, 2018)

I still love experimenting so I actually haven't bought a single bag twice (as far as speciality roasters is concerned), so obviously all varying in price.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I agree with the above to a large degree.

Some beans, they are just less off, so demand outstrips supply.

I still maintain there is not magic bean that roasters use to drive these really low kg prices at retail/delivered.

The incentive for farmers, to keep that land as coffee producing land, with the current ecomonic and environmental factors, should not be taken for granted.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> I agree with the above to a large degree.
> 
> Some beans, they are just less off, so demand outstrips supply.
> 
> ...


I think that to support farmers who are producing speciality grade quality coffee then we should insist on traceability of the product. The roaster should be able to provide this to us by buying greens from reputable suppliers who can provide the traceability. If they can't then go elsewhere. There are many roasters well known on the forum that do this as standard.

But even then it is the case that a farmer/collective in one part of the world will be paid a different price for a product of similar quality. That's the market. The only way we can influence the market is to buy coffees from these places and create a demand. There are excellent coffees available from less well known countries e.g. Burundi, Uganda, Malawi, Congo, Papua New Guinea etc... but there is not yet the demand for them like Kenya. Like Brazil, Columbia etc..

I read that the last time coffee prices hit a high, quality actually went down as many growers realised they could sell inferior coffee for higher prices. So, it is never as simple as it seems.

I do though wonder why you would spend a small fortune on machines and grinders etc. and yet stint on the beans. No machine can make a poor quality bean into something better. Unless that's those magic beans you mention...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Step21 said:


> I think that to support farmers who are producing speciality grade quality coffee then we should insist on traceability of the product. The roaster should be able to provide this to us by buying greens from reputable suppliers who can provide the traceability. If they can't then go elsewhere. There are many roasters well known on the forum that do this as standard.
> 
> But even then it is the case that a farmer/collective in one part of the world will be paid a different price for a product of similar quality. That's the market. The only way we can influence the market is to buy coffees from these places and create a demand. There are excellent coffees available from less well known countries e.g. Burundi, Uganda, Malawi, Congo, Papua New Guinea etc... but there is not yet the demand for them like Kenya. Like Brazil, Columbia etc..
> 
> ...


That view simplifies things so much, it would be nice if what you say is true...sadly it doesn't really work like that. Take Neumann Gruppe GmbH for example, they import a lot of coffee much of it not super high quality at all....but what a good job they do, they keep those low quality producers going, educate them, help them improve their crops and they invest in these areas. Similar things go for many large coffee importers...who usually have commodity and speciality listings for roasters to choose from. I get lots of these listings from at least 3 wholesalers and I keep an eye on the speciality and commodity lists. I see coffees being sold that are from commodity lists and sometimes at bloody high prices, other times I see coffee from speciality lists being sold at vary fair mark ups (not so often though). Often I see speciality coffee with a fancy name, with a fancy description being sold at a markup I consider excessive.

Then there's roasters who go direct to farm....romantic, but arguably not as useful to the farmers as the big companies who invest millions in the regions. The Investment in the Araku region was huge, that stopped last year, so it will be interesting to see if continued investment in their coffee comes from the big importers...if it doesn't roasters going direct to farm won't save the quality of their coffee.

As Bootsie says, price can also reflect demand/supply, rather than quality...so a rare, but crap coffee can command a much higher price than a much better coffee. e.g. Civet cat crap vs a good Daterra or Australian Skyberry....I know which I would rather have at 10% of the price.

Lastly don't confuse supporting farmers with supporting importers and their speciality lists, they will thn invest in the speciality region as a whole....that's where the work needs to be done, not just with individual farms. This might take the form of co-operative washing stations, shared processing facilities, all which help improve the quality of all the coffee in the region.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

UncleNathan said:


> I today spent £12 on 250g for an Honduras Single Origin.


OUCH!



UncleNathan said:


> Its by far the best coffee I've ever had.


Well that's OK then......

As per above - if you bought the over the counter at coffee shop/cafe there would be a hefty chunk of mark up on them...

If you really like them (which you seem to) contact the roaster - you. might be able to get "the best coffee you've tasted".. cheaper!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@*UncleNathan *Exactly what was that Honduras called? I was looking up a few Honduras coffees, because I sometimes do roast them and I was curious as to which one it was.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

I've run Esmerelda in the old shop that came in at over £120 a kilo. Currently have a small lot Gardelli coffee that we're selling at the £29 per 250g price point. Although this might seem expensive, the cost is fairly low compared to fine wines.

JP


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Yes but it's a Coffee Forum and that's pricey


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Jony said:


> Yes but it's a Coffee Forum and that's pricey


Lol! I'm always surprised when people buy an EK for home use then stick sub-£18 a kilo coffee through it.

JP


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Maybe I am just plain ol'e tight.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm still curious to know what that mystery Honduran was actually called..?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm aMug maybe haha


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## Grimley (Jan 18, 2015)

It varies for me. I've paid anywhere between a roughly a fiver to a tenner for a 250g bag this year. Some cheaper coffees have been better than others Ive paid 20-30% more for. I would say average price for 250g has been around the £8 mark. I dont really like paying more than a Tenner for a 250g bag unless I hear good things about it, that was once & that was for the Origin Honduran green tip Geisha (washed) a few weeks ago. I would have said it was just about worth that. Cheapest was the Kenyan AA estate from the Camden Coffee shop £5.50 & I enjoyed that very much.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

I recently saw some green Guatemalan Gesha that wholesaled at £90/kg.. Yes, that a kilo.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Batian said:


> I recently saw some green Guatemalan Gesha that wholesaled at £90/kg.. Yes, that a kilo.


Was it good?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Step21 said:


> Was it good?


It was good for the people that sell it....


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Step21 said:


> Was it good?


It was very nice. But not for me this side of a win on Euro Millions.

At the same time, I was told of an Ethiopian Gesha that would be on the UK market at the end of this year/beginning next year. It is made up of three Gesha beans that (it is believed) have never been seen on the world market. It is expected to be similarly priced.

Form an orderly queue, boys and girls.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

I'm based in Ireland, and do a lot of beans by post.

So delivery costs matter.. and add up. But, discounting that. Bags for 10e and bags for 30e have been great value and proportionally great tasting. The weird middle ground of 15-20e a bag has been the let down this year.


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## Muahahaha (Dec 20, 2016)

I typically spend £5-£9 a bag. I have gone higher but didnt really see the extra taste I was expecting. Also as a heavy drinker paying over a tenner a bag makes things expensive over time for me


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## Craft House Coffee (Jan 13, 2017)

Now that's a good one, I would say if your paying 6-11 for 250g, your on track.


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

Around 25 quid for 1 kilo for a medium roast.

Best one I ever had was a SO from Rave around 2 years ago - pure shortbread taste from Nicaragua. Been struggling to replicate the taste ever since. Was a micro lottery and around the same price (25 for 1kg).


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## Gerrard Burrard (May 7, 2014)

I recently paid £22 for 250g (retail café) for Gardelli's Mzungu Project Ugandan natural. I've never paid as much before, but it was highly recommended and I wasn't disappointed. This is an incredible coffee: if you get the chance to try it don't hesitate. https://shop.gardellicoffee.com/coffees/222-mzungu-project-uganda


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## Beanedict (Aug 14, 2017)

Hmm, there's Honduras (Beneficio Los Andes) £10/200g bag, from Second Crack Coffee (that makes it £12.50 for 250g),

then there's ... wait for it ... Cup Of Excellence - El Liquidambo Honduras £30 a bag (from roast and post) but that must be a mistake because they sell similar for £12.50.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

We just bought a 250g bag of the Rave daterra for £16.50 plus a 20% discount...

It's a treat for Christmas, and a vote of confidence in Rave because everything we have had from them so far has been lovely.

Planning on French Pressing it on Tuesday!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Jesus where do I start...

I have bought stuff ranging from £30 for 100g (George Howell) all the way to regularly paying ~£10 for erryday drinkers. Recently I bought some Costa Rican SL28 from 3FE for £20 delivered. Depends on what is interesting to me there and then.

Once ran some experimental anaerobic geisha on batch at the shop for £2 a cup that I made a loss of about 80p a cup on (£240/kg). Try not to do that too often though.


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## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Typically I look to spend about £10-15 for a 250g bag but I'll also jump to way above that for an interesting/rare coffee that piques my interest. Unless you go to the top-top end I think the price for specialty coffee is pretty cheap for what it is - compare it to what people regularly throw down on bottles of wine or whisk(e)y.


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## Jez H (Apr 4, 2015)

Usually under £10 (including delivery) for me. However, my local coffee shop owner persuaded me, before Christmas, to splash out £12 on some Darkwoods Panama natural beans. So glad I did, the coffee is amazing. The old adage "you get what you pay for" is generally true I would say.


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

You guys must be nuts or loaded, £25 for 250g of coffee beans?

I'm currently using 1000 espressos from Espresso Services in Govan, Glasgow, cost me £8 a kilo and is fine but I drink milk based coffee and have spent £16 per kg in the past and couldn't taste any difference from the ES beans.

I've been drinking Aldi beans too, Columbian @ about £3 for a 350g bag and pretty decent in milk and Waitrose Columbian @ £6 per 450g bag which is okay in milk too but the ES beans are consistently decent tasting in milk and we drink a lot of coffee every day.

Each to the their own and all that but there's no way I'd be paying those expensive prices for coffee beans and then banging a load of milk on top of the coffee.

No doubt the coffee bean snobs will be outraged at the thought


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Im not outraged, I just pity the poor farmer, people working on that farm, that is supplying someone the beans where they can make a profit on £8 a kilo retail.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Im not outraged, I just pity the poor farmer, people working on that farm, that is supplying someone the beans where they can make a profit on £8 a kilo retail.


Don't pity the farmer? You have to remember their beans are so bad it can only be sold as the cheapest spot commodity coffee and even then probably bulked up with Robusta. Without roasters who buy complete shit, what would these farmers do....On many farms the situation means they simply cannot grow quality crops.


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Im not outraged, I just pity the poor farmer, people working on that farm, that is supplying someone the beans where they can make a profit on £8 a kilo retail.


Bloody nonsense, I buy Aldi Portuguese red wine @ £4.99 and it's probably the best value red wine available anywhere and tastes excellent so what am I supposed to do go and spend £20 on a bottle of something just to make me feel good?

We live in a capitalist system and demand drives the prices for anything but anyway all of those fancy beans you lot push people into buying on here are not much better than supermarket beans and often are not any better and are in fact shite.

I'll spend my money how I like thanks very much, £90 for £250g of beans, you guys are mental. It's coffee for God's sake not bloody *Chateau Lafite-Rothschild, 1869 or Petrus, 1961*


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

twotone said:


> Bloody nonsense, I buy Aldi Portuguese red wine @ £4.99 and it's probably the best value red wine available anywhere and tastes excellent so what am I supposed to do go and spend £20 on a bottle of something just to make me feel good?
> 
> We live in a capitalist system and demand drives the prices for anything but anyway all of those fancy beans you lot push people into buying on here are not much better than supermarket beans and often are not any better and are in fact shite.
> 
> I'll spend my money how I like thanks very much, £90 for £250g of beans, you guys are mental. It's coffee for God's sake not bloody *Chateau Lafite-Rothschild, 1869 or Petrus, 1961*


The wine analogy is interesting since there is a fixed price tax per bottle. A £10 bottle of wine will by default be more than twice the quality of a £5 one.

Personally where possible, I prefer to buy beans which can be traced back to a fair price going to the farmer.

All that matters for naught though if you're happy with cost being the lowest common denominator on what you're happy to purchase.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

twotone said:


> Bloody nonsense, I buy Aldi Portuguese red wine @ £4.99 and it's probably the best value red wine available anywhere and tastes excellent so what am I supposed to do go and spend £20 on a bottle of something just to make me feel good?
> 
> We live in a capitalist system and demand drives the prices for anything but anyway all of those fancy beans you lot push people into buying on here are not much better than supermarket beans and often are not any better and are in fact shite.
> 
> I'll spend my money how I like thanks very much, £90 for £250g of beans, you guys are mental. It's coffee for God's sake not bloody *Chateau Lafite-Rothschild, 1869 or Petrus, 1961*


I dont spend £90 on beans I don't spend that much on wine either.

And you can spend your cash where you want but venting about it on a specialty coffee forum seems a little pointless. Where yes we are a little mental, but that's ok to.

I also didnt feel the need to swear.

When capitalism drives down the demand for your services to a similar level I wonder if you will be as happy then ...

I look forward to your annual returns and subsequent Hulk mode within 5 minutes but it cant be good for your blood pressure .

Cheers


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

twotone said:


> We live in a capitalist system and demand drives the prices for anything but anyway all of those fancy beans you lot push people into buying on here are not much better than supermarket beans and often are not any better and are in fact shite.


You're shite


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> The wine analogy is interesting since there is a fixed price tax per bottle. A £10 bottle of wine will by default be more than twice the quality of a £5 one.
> 
> Personally where possible, I prefer to buy beans which can be traced back to a fair price going to the farmer.
> 
> All that matters for naught though if you're happy with cost being the lowest common denominator on what you're happy to purchase.


Well you've obviously not tasted the Aldi wine at £4.99 a bottle so what are people supposed to do? Not buy the guy's wine cause it's too cheap so then he doesn't sell his wine and his business and family suffers?

There's really some nonsense posted on this forum at times (not talking about you mate), I've just read a thread in which a seller was selling a coffee machine and was then 'made' to sell it £25 cheaper to someone who had offered less than someone else who had offered full asking.

The place is like a parallel universe where the norms of society don't apply, apparently we are to go out and buy expensive coffee beans because the farmer deserves more than the market price because he produces nice beans and I'm sure a lot of the farmers are very nice people but that's not how things work in the real world but then this forum isn't in the real world, it's full up punters trying to sell expensive stuff to noobs.

This forum should be renamed the UK coffee clique forum.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

there's an Oz forum called "coffe snobs".


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If Aldi wine floats your boat - good for you. Same for beans. Plenty on the forum prepared to pay a little if not quite a bit more for beans that stand out. Doesn't make them members of a parallel universe although quite like the concept.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

twotone said:


> Well you've obviously not tasted the Aldi wine at £4.99 a bottle so what are people supposed to do? Not buy the guy's wine cause it's too cheap so then he doesn't sell his wine and his business and family suffers?
> 
> There's really some nonsense posted on this forum at times (not talking about you mate), I've just read a thread in which a seller was selling a coffee machine and was then 'made' to sell it £25 cheaper to someone who had offered less than someone else who had offered full asking.
> 
> ...


Why do you come here?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Why do you come here?


And why, why do you hang around?

I'm so sorry, oh, I'm so sorry


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## twotone (Jan 13, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Why do you come here?


Why do you come here? And, why do you feel the need to comment on every post?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> And why, why do you hang around?
> 
> I'm so sorry, oh, I'm so sorry


I'm so very sickened

Oh, I am so sickened now


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Haha, that's entertaining actually!

Keep going!


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Snobs? What ho! Have i inadvertently arrived in Coffee Poundland? Riffraff...

Jeebs! A cup of your finest Esmarelda Geisha. Quickly now!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hasi said:


> Haha, that's entertaining actually!
> 
> Keep going!


A baby wailing and stray dog howling

The screech of brakes and lamp light blinking

That's entertainment, that's entertainment


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> A baby wailing and stray dog howling
> 
> The screech of brakes and lamp light blinking
> 
> That's entertainment, that's entertainment


Hey!!!! You forgot the rumble of Boots!!!!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I have 3 beans at the moment. 2 fresh roasted at £5 for 227g and one commercial espresso machine blend at £13 for 1kg including shipping by Lavazza. I've tried a number of supermarket beans and a few have been ok but most seem to have a particular taste aspect that I don't like. It was in the back ground taste of most of them. I just couldn't tune one bean what ever I did, this one

https://www.bettys.co.uk/jamaica-blue-mountain

Some one sent me some as a gift when they offered 250 or 500g.

I used a french press for some years and didn't notice any supermarket taste on any beans I used in it. Makes me wonder if some blends / processing methods just aren't suitable for an espresso machine so some may be ok some may not. Actually some fresh roasted suppliers suggest which of the beans they offer are suitable for particular methods of brewing.

Fresh roasted bean suppliers - where are the tasting scores for the beans that are being sold? That is something that should influence price.

John

-


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Is someone having a bad Christmas . . .


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

twotone said:


> You guys must be nuts or loaded, £25 for 250g of coffee beans?
> 
> I'm currently using 1000 espressos from Espresso Services in Govan, Glasgow, cost me £8 a kilo and is fine but I drink milk based coffee and have spent £16 per kg in the past and couldn't taste any difference from the ES beans.
> 
> I've been drinking Aldi beans too, Columbian @ about £3 for a 350g bag and pretty decent in milk and Waitrose Columbian @ £6 per 450g bag which is okay in milk too but the ES beans are consistently decent tasting in milk and we drink a lot of coffee every day.


May I ask, what were the more expensive coffee beans you've tried, and where from (roaster)?

The reason I ask is that, when I started my coffee journey, it thought Lavazza was great. Then I thought Waitrose own brand was great. Then I thought Taylor's were great. And then I discovered freshly roasted beans. I then went for roasters which offered a good value for money, but taste-wise it was just.... meh. I never really had paid more than £6 for a bag of 250g, but occasionally I did. And I have to say, that if you find a good Roaster and are prepared to pay a bit extra - It doesn't need to be £25 per bag - it does make a difference. I now buy whatever I like the taste of, and rather not drink or eat something for pleasure that's of low quality (same goes for wine, beer, whiskey and chocolate).

You don't need to spend a fortune. If you haven't tried yet, I recommend Square Mile Red Brick: good all rounder, espresso and milk based drinks. £10.50 for 350g delivered. Can't go wrong. And then there's Rave, Foundry, Roundhill, CoffeeCompass, HasBean, Django .... and many many others.

I now have a subscription from Django which works out at £27 for four 250g bags delivered, one every week. Great coffee, great value, great quality, and the ability to receive coffees which otherwise I would never think of buying myself has broaden my horizons quite a bit.

Discover good coffee, find what you like, explore. There's a lot out there.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> May I ask, what were the more expensive coffee beans you've tried, and where from (roaster)?
> 
> The reason I ask is that, when I started my coffee journey, it thought Lavazza was great. Then I thought Waitrose own brand was great. Then I thought Taylor's were great. And then I discovered freshly roasted beans. I then went for roasters which offered a good value for money, but taste-wise it was just.... meh. I never really had paid more than £6 for a bag of 250g, but occasionally I did. And I have to say, that if you find a good Roaster and are prepared to pay a bit extra - It doesn't need to be £25 per bag - it does make a difference. I now buy whatever I like the taste of, and rather not drink or eat something for pleasure that's of low quality (same goes for wine, beer, whiskey and chocolate).
> 
> ...


I skipped your start completely other than using up a bit of Lavazza pre ground up but lots of that and others were thrown away as they just wouldn't work well in an espresso machine, fine in french press.

Have you ever tried beans from Espresso Services in Govan, Glasgow? Have you ever tried Lavazza Tierra Selection







that one might surprise some people. Unless some one has tried the bean that some one mentions there isn't much point in commenting really and even then people's taste preferences are likely to vary.

John

-


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I skipped your start completely other than using up a bit of Lavazza pre ground up but lots of that and others were thrown away as they just wouldn't work well in an espresso machine, fine in french press.
> 
> Have you ever tried beans from Espresso Services in Govan, Glasgow? Have you ever tried Lavazza Tierra Selection
> 
> ...


Post me 60g then. I'll pay the shipping


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I've tried many of the beans mentioned, that 2 forum members assume I won't like, and found them to be disgusting. May I ask . . . Have these members tried (and I use this word loosely) decent beans with a decent setup with knowledge and experience to obtain the best from them - and can truthfully say there isn't a difference/any point/they all taste the same or whatever derogatory term they wish to use?

I would suggest a lot of the argument here is simply that. Argument for arguments sake. It's amusing really. And to add, if you like your crap beans then good for you but don't expect a specialist coffee forum to start recommending £2.99 beans from wherever. And by the way, I like being a coffee snob: but really, none of use are. We just like good coffee and find great enjoyment from sharing our experience of equipment, beans and what we like


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MildredM said:


> I've tried many of the beans mentioned, that 2 forum members assume I won't like, and found them to be disgusting. May I ask . . . Have these members tried (and I use this word loosely) decent beans with a decent setup with knowledge and experience to obtain the best from them - and can truthfully say there isn't a difference/any point/they all taste the same or whatever derogatory they wish to use?
> 
> I would suggest a lot of the argument here is simply that. Argument for arguments sake. It's amusing really.


Have the delux barrel beans improved with age or did they just make it into the compost where they belong?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Have the delux barrel beans improved with age or did they just make it into the compost where they belong?


Still got 'em! I shake the barrel from time to time to wake them up. You'll be laughing on the other side of your face when I sell them on eBay in 10 years time and make a fortune!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Everybody knows barrel aged beans are the best. Something to do with letting them mature in some abandoned dank Welsh slate mine.....or is that cheddar?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have met Tony and he is a canny lad. The point he is making, and I agree with is this.....taste and coffee is subjective.......can you guarantee spending a whole lot of dosh on a bean will get you a nice coffee? of course not for a whole variety of reasons. We all know the story many years ago of the City Traders who on receiving their bonus celebrated at a Gordon Ramsay restaurant for lunch. they ordered the most expensive white wine in the place which was for arguments sake, a grand. tried it left it because they did not like the taste so bought several others at a similar price point.

Supply and demand sets the price, but guarantees nothing.....once purchased the roaster has to have the skill sets to get the best, and many do not. look at Coffee Compass. They often supply the same bean roasted to three different levels. I have bought a bag of each before and enjoyed each one. this compares to when the DSOL used to run, and so often a roaster simply thought all he had to do was take the roast a minute past his normal level. Sooften, we received absolute crap, and often from big name roasters.

Anyway, back on track.....I buy 98% of my coffee from Coffee Compass. have been spoilt for the past 15 months drinking the mystery coffee at £13 per kilo but will happily pay unto double that if I know I am going to enjoy it. I bought some of the Bb Salt Marsh novelty coffee. As espresso it was ok, but as brewed it was a totally different animal


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Post me 60g then. I'll pay the shipping


Nope - you'll have to buy some and find out. Their description is "Intense and fruity with hints of milk chocolate"

Intense - I need 17g of it. One of the few beans where I need the Sage double

fruity - I wouldn't go that far

chocolate - yes but milk? no I wouldn't have said so.

Out fo 10 they give body 8, aroma 8,intensity 9, balance 7, persistency 7 and acidity 5. Wouldn't argue with that depending on how it's brewed.

I've used more than 60g playing with it. Ratios ranging from 1 to 2 up to 1 to 3. The beans themselves have a very nice smell.

How well this one keeps, pass. The other arabica blend they produce did keep well but for me didn't taste so nice.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Nope - you'll have to buy some and find out. Their description is "Intense and fruity with hints of milk chocolate"
> 
> Intense - I need 17g of it. One of the few beans where I need the Sage double
> 
> ...


Right..... Numbers and shite as usual


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I have met Tony and he is a canny lad. The point he is making, and I agree with is this.....taste and coffee is subjective.......can you guarantee spending a whole lot of dosh on a bean will get you a nice coffee? of course not for a whole variety of reasons. We all know the story many years ago of the City Traders who on receiving their bonus celebrated at a Gordon Ramsay restaurant for lunch. they ordered the most expensive white wine in the place which was for arguments sake, a grand. tried it left it because they did not like the taste so bought several others at a similar price point.
> 
> Supply and demand sets the price, but guarantees nothing.....once purchased the roaster has to have the skill sets to get the best, and many do not. look at Coffee Compass. They often supply the same bean roasted to three different levels. I have bought a bag of each before and enjoyed each one. this compares to when the DSOL used to run, and so often a roaster simply thought all he had to do was take the roast a minute past his normal level. Sooften, we received absolute crap, and often from big name roasters.
> 
> Anyway, back on track.....I buy 98% of my coffee from Coffee Compass. have been spoilt for the past 15 months drinking the mystery coffee at £13 per kilo but will happily pay unto double that if I know I am going to enjoy it. I bought some of the Bb Salt Marsh novelty coffee. As espresso it was ok, but as brewed it was a totally different animal


I'll just chime in on that:

Obviously, taste is subjective. Therefore professionals strive for maximum objectivity by installing standardised cupping procedures carried out by different people and results being accumulated (and even shared across different web platforms) into one final score per defined marker. Still, that doesn't make a specific coffee (or wine, beer etc.) taste nice in the eyes/nose of a consumer.

To kick off my personal pro roasting journey I've done well over a hundred 1kg batches of one forking bean. It simply served as a route to understand and track how small changes would affect the final product - on different roast levels. To be honest, taste bud wise it had been a bit of a one-sided affair this year. Because someone needed to drink all that up  but it showed me how important it is to carefully approach the process.

Opening the different sacks I recently bought and starting to work on their respective profiles again made some 15kg disappear in the compost out the backyard.

At some point raw material input and time and efforts need to pay off. Living in a capitalist world that is.

So, buying carefully sourced and carefully roasted beans simply comes at a price.

It makes me feel a bit awkward when some folk compare industrial products with hand made products. Despite all commercial streamlining, centralised production/warehousing/deployment disables the consumer to choose the level of freshness in their purchased coffee. As well as large roasters requiring different processing routines such as quenching - which ultimately alters the taste of the outcome.

Having touched up on a few points it's only obvious that buying from a smaller roastery might not be as cost effective but may well yield more interesting flavour notes in the cup - since someone operating a small roaster is more likely to be determined to bring the best out of a bean... but prove me wrong


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## Jez H (Apr 4, 2015)

I simply buy the best beans I can afford at the time. Always from a specialist roaster however, as I can pretty much guarantee that they'll be decent. It's pretty pointless in me getting in to an argument with somebody if they prefer or simply buy supermarket beans & enjoy them. I come on here for advice & to be educated by more informed people than myself. I've found it has helped my coffee "journey" massively. And I always check out the "deals" section. My Django yearly coffee subscription was 25% off, which is pretty hard to beat.

As my Mother-In-Law used to say to my children when they were younger "play nicely" people.......


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

The points about the skill of the roaster are in my mind very much key, I prefer that the person doing the roasting / determining the roast profile, puts their name on the packet in addition to the bean details, in doing so it attaches their reputation and enables us to identify the skills and preferences that an individual has. With a set up like Hasi's you know exactly who you are working with and there is a transparency about the process and care taken.

There are so many Roasters who you have little or no info about who is determining the roast profile or the care taken in the process. Locally we have a roaster down the road that is very popular but unfortunately you can see that their equipment is Victorian and has very little control of the roasting profile, the only electronics are in the till, They actually do an ok Columbian but it varies massively in quality as the roasting is just done by eye and cupping is not part of their process.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Persistency? That's a good one. How hard it tries to taste like coffee?...


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

My go to bean for a long time is Columbian Suarez from Rave. It's about £16 a kilo and i buy 2 or 3 at a time so postage is free. I tend to mostly stick to this for espresso and then I had a sub with HasBean (£6.50 for 250g) for about 3 years, I used this for pour over but recently cancelled as I've decided I want to try more roasters in 2019...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

How much more skill can there be, than man and a machine. No electronic wizardry......then you show whether you have an understanding of what the process is really about. I used to buy my beans, from a very well known roaster, until one day they replaced their equipment and went to computerised profiling..the quality, in my humble went drastically downhill. Nowadays, s many firms seem to follow the same method then I am sure the general public, on the whole have been duped.

If you go to a restaurant you pay for the skill of the chef. If you went in the kitchen and found him programming a microwave would you be happy, hence my comment about many roasters with DSOL simply over posting because they did not understand the technique


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rom said:


> My go to bean for a long time is Columbian Suarez from Rave. It's about £16 a kilo and i buy 2 or 3 at a time so postage is free. I tend to mostly stick to this for espresso and then I had a sub with HasBean (£6.50 for 250g) for about 3 years, I used this for pour over but recently cancelled as I've decided I want to try more roasters in 2019...


Same here. Rave's Columbian Suarez are great value. Once I tried their monsoon malabar and I enjoyed that too (I wasn't expecting it). I even tried roasting Rave's green beans, but I don't think I'm skilled enough on that regard (not with the Gene Cafe at least).

I'm still eyeing out the Dog & Hat sub as they provide beans from different roasters. The only issue for me is that they don't fit through a letterbox...


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Same here. Rave's Columbian Suarez are great value. Once I tried their monsoon malabar and I enjoyed that too (I wasn't expecting it). I even tried roasting Rave's green beans, but I don't think I'm skilled enough on that regard (not with the Gene Cafe at least).
> 
> I'm still eyeing out the Dog & Hat sub as they provide beans from different roasters. The only issue for me is that they don't fit through a letterbox...


Roasting greens.... thats one thing I promised my self I would never get into and I still have no desire, luckily!

ive checked out the Dog & Hat sub, it looks ok due to different roasters being used and luckily I get beans delivered to my parents...


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> How much more skill can there be, than man and a machine. No electronic wizardry......then you show whether you have an understanding of what the process is really about. I used to buy my beans, from a very well known roaster, until one day they replaced their equipment and went to computerised profiling..the quality, in my humble went drastically downhill. Nowadays, s many firms seem to follow the same method then I am sure the general public, on the whole have been duped.
> 
> If you go to a restaurant you pay for the skill of the chef. If you went in the kitchen and found him programming a microwave would you be happy, hence my comment about many roasters with DSOL simply over posting because they did not understand the technique


Yeah I like adding the element of human error in roasting to my day to day coffee consumption. Who likes consistently roasted coffee anyway?

Further reading: consistency is king


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes you are right. Any daft sod can call themselves a roaster and press a button



Scotford said:


> Yeah I like adding the element of human error in roasting to my day to day coffee consumption. Who likes consistently roasted coffee anyway?
> 
> Further reading: consistency is king


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## Shaf (Dec 4, 2018)

Hi all

After reading a number of comments how good the Columbian Suarez from Rave are. I have ordered some and will try them out.

Thanks


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Exactly the reason I've always kept away from it.....



dfk41 said:


> Yes you are right. Any daft sod can call themselves a roaster and press a button


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Yes you are right. Any daft sod can call themselves a roaster and press a button


Sure, but it takes skill to set the profile at first and then keep it consistent.

Any daft sod can push a button and operate an espresso machine. How well it is set up is a different matter.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

I disagree with your main point.

I roast for one coffee bar, very small scale. However, it takes a lot of time and understanding to develop a profile that produces the results you're aiming for. I started roasting and developing a profile based on extractions with distilled water, thinking all the fuss over water recipes was over geeky BS. Then when I started to use straight Edinburgh tap water the roast tasted overdone. It then took a lot of trial and error to create the new profile to produce the same previous in the cup results.

It wasn't just reducing the time from first crack to drop, it was a case of having to modify timings and rate of rise for all phases of the roast profile.

The final profile has taken a lot of work and some help from Rob Hoos (as it was based in part on one of his profiles for the Ikawa which I adapted to another roaster) but it now produces consistent, replicable results so that the flavours in the cup from batch to batch are close to being identical. Even a small variation in profile such as extending the drop by as little as 10 seconds produces a noticeably different flavour profile, so the only way to produce the same results is to use computerised PID control of the roaster.

This enables me to maintain a close match between all aspects of the roast, especially rate of rise in different phases so that the journey each batch takes from green to brown is almost identical. Other tools don't enable me to maintain such consistency. Even when measured by a Tonino roast colour meter the final results can vary according to that scale, but the flavour doesn't. In my experience, this shows that going by roast colour isn't an accurate enough metric to determine flavour.

I've also worked as a chef in a hotel in Italy and can say that cooking is incomparable to roasting. When making a ragu you can maintain consistent results without having to worry about rate of rise as you heat the base ingredients and then add the tomatoes. Flavour profiles in food seem far more dependent on ingredient quantities and sequence of combinations. In coffee roasting, you're dealing with a very complex process of chemical chain reactions that depend upon the previous steps in the development. To compare this to cooking isn't an accurate analogy in my opinion.

For me, the skill is in developing a specific profile and then locking that into a process that can produce replicable results so that the end consumer has the same flavour experience.

I agree with your point about DSOL roasts though as it's an easy fudge to over roast to produce the bitter caramelised results that cover up some of the roast defect tastes.



dfk41 said:


> How much more skill can there be, than man and a machine. No electronic wizardry......then you show whether you have an understanding of what the process is really about. I used to buy my beans, from a very well known roaster, until one day they replaced their equipment and went to computerised profiling..the quality, in my humble went drastically downhill. Nowadays, s many firms seem to follow the same method then I am sure the general public, on the whole have been duped.
> 
> If you go to a restaurant you pay for the skill of the chef. If you went in the kitchen and found him programming a microwave would you be happy, hence my comment about many roasters with DSOL simply over posting because they did not understand the technique


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I agree, profiles give consistency, but they do not develop your natural curiosity unless you deliberately go about experimenting or developing a new taste. You press a button, and because of the work involved in getting that button to the stage you press, you accept the result since you are after repeatability. If you are happy with the result, then so be it, but who are you roasting for.....your clients or yourselves......do you go down the multi roast level option for a bean, or do you settle on what you perceive as being the best roast for that bean.....why was it so many alleged skilled roasters, when asked for DSOL offerings absolutely failed in their offerings.....


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

I can only speak from my own experience, but I think there's a general misunderstanding of the chemical processes involved throughout the entire roasting process that underlies some of the problems you may be experiencing. If some roasters believe that the roast level varies simply by extending or reducing the time to drop from first crack then you get bad roasts. They won't highlight the different aspects of the bean under different conditions.

I specifically aimed for a flavour that brings out the nutty, chocolately flavours of the Brazil bean we're using whilst taming the acidity but also bringing out the sweetness and a little of the herbal notes. So it has to have a longer malliard phase than the previous profile I was using but also a longer run after first crack to tame the acidity whilst not going too long and producing the caramels that destroy the sweetness.

Ultimately I'm aiming for a flavour profile I enjoy but also one that ticks a lot of boxes for the general public. That flavour can also be adjusted depending on the fineness of the grind used in the coffee bar.



dfk41 said:


> I agree, profiles give consistency, but they do not develop your natural curiosity unless you deliberately go about experimenting or developing a new taste. You press a button, and because of the work involved in getting that button to the stage you press, you accept the result since you are after repeatability. If you are happy with the result, then so be it, but who are you roasting for.....your clients or yourselves......do you go down the multi roast level option for a bean, or do you settle on what you perceive as being the best roast for that bean.....why was it so many alleged skilled roasters, when asked for DSOL offerings absolutely failed in their offerings.....


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## GerryM (Feb 6, 2016)

twotone said:


> The place is like a parallel universe where the norms of society don't apply, apparently we are to go out and buy expensive coffee beans because the farmer deserves more than the market price because he produces nice beans and I'm sure a lot of the farmers are very nice people but that's not how things work in the real world but then this forum isn't in the real world, it's full up punters trying to sell expensive stuff to noobs.
> 
> This forum should be renamed the UK coffee clique forum.


Twotone, life is rarely black or white.

Most things are rarely if ever entirely one way or another.

The grey areas are generally more interesting and enable us to learn something about the experience of others, expand our self awareness and possibly affect change.

It seems a shame that the farmers welfare is not a major consideration, it can be argued that capitalism is built on the backs of the poor, for now most of us are lucky enough not to be right at the bottom if the heap, that could change for the worst and is more likely to I suspect if we only care about what's in it for us.

Sing if you're glad to be grey, sing if you're happy that way!


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I agree, profiles give consistency, but they do not develop your natural curiosity unless you deliberately go about experimenting or developing a new taste. You press a button, and because of the work involved in getting that button to the stage you press, you accept the result since you are after repeatability. If you are happy with the result, then so be it,....


A profile is only good for one bean. The supply runs out. You have to roast something else. It might be similar in origin etc... but you must create a new profile for it (or if you are lucky tweak the previous one). Old school roasting as you allude to still has profiles. On paper. The roaster does their best to follow what they did before but the results tend to be consistently inconsistent, hence more automation.

Senses are still important though, both visual and smell. Paper notes are still taken and used to inform how to change the profile to improve the result you are looking for.

It's not quite "Alexa, roast those beans for me". Not yet.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

Around £6 for 250g.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A single shot in a café is what around £1.80? I mostly work to 13g per cup, so let's round that out to 20 doses from a 250g bag. If you're paying less than £36g a bag, seems OK to me. I'd happily pay £25/250g if I could be sure of getting really consistent roasts. For all the talk of profiles, automation & consistency, all small roasters seem to struggle to some degree at least with consistency. The really good ones might get 90% on point, but everyone seems to under/over-develop on occasions.

I currently spend £12-20/250g, but most come from Scandinavia so that pushes up compared to UK.

I also wonder about the logic of buying machines that cost hundreds, or thousands of pounds, then skimping on the coffee. I'd rather spend on the coffee itself & make it with £100 worth of gear. It strikes me as being like buying an Aga, then shopping around for cheap chicken nuggets to cook in it


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> I also wonder about the logic of buying machines that cost hundreds, or thousands of pounds, then skimping on the coffee. I'd rather spend on the coffee itself & make it with £100 worth of gear. It strikes me as being like buying an Aga, then shopping around for cheap chicken nuggets to cook in it


It's a bit of a trend now though. I see Kitchens that cost 50K to install for people who never actually cook anything.....Food Mixers that cost £600 for people who don't bake, 4x4s for people who drive in town and only take little Johnny to school or go to the supermarket. £2000 coffee machines for people to stick chicken nuggets in the portafilter....doesn't surprise me at all


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

Mostly i buy my beans from coffeecompass. with forum discount 500gr comes about £12-£13 delivered. I try to pay no more than £25 a kg really.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> It's a bit of a trend now though. I see Kitchens that cost 50K to install for people who never actually cook anything.....Food Mixers that cost £600 for people who don't bake, 4x4s for people who drive in town and only take little Johnny to school or go to the supermarket. £2000 coffee machines for people to stick chicken nuggets in the portafilter....doesn't surprise me at all


It's funny you say that, my parents had an extortionate kitchen fitted, but absolutely love cooking and it really is the hub of the house. They have a rather expensive food processor and again, use it a lot. They have a big old Land Rover, but there used to be 6 of us at home and used to tow things all the time.

BUT, has a £1600 Miele B2C machine, and might as well put dog $#!+ through it. It's the one thing that really bugs me!!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you read through the threads, the typical starting point for a newbie is I want a shiny ******* without a thought to the grinder. The older heads know that the machine makes coffee from whatever you put into it. How many people on here have a £1000 plus machine and a grinder for £200 to £300? You can make a good cuppa on a Classic paired to a decent grinder and arguably shite coffee on a top end Rocket paired with an MC2. The grinder, always has been and always will be the most important, but often overlooked part of the coffee set up


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

We have been making coffee with a decent machine and grinder since about April (ECM/Niche).

Apart from a Christmas treat 250g bag of Daterra from Rave which was £16.50, and we all French pressed, we have never spent more than £20 on a kilo. We've only bought from Rave and Coffee Compass so far, usually when one or the other chases us with a discount email. The CC Mystery 8 & 9 we have had both seemed very nice, and under £12/kg which seems hard to argue with.

Reading through this thread it seems many of you are spending a similar amount on 250g bags that we are paying for a kilo.

I am wondering whether there is much of a jump in quality if we spend a bit more?

We have been using Rave and CC because they both came highly recommended on the forum.

We're happy to up our spend, if it's going to bring us better coffee, and would be interested to hear your opinions on where the sweet spot for price/quality might be found.

Robert


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rdpx said:


> We have been making coffee with a decent machine and grinder since about April (ECM/Niche).
> 
> Apart from a Christmas treat 250g bag of Daterra from Rave which was £16.50, and we all French pressed, we have never spent more than £20 on a kilo. We've only bought from Rave and Coffee Compass so far, usually when one or the other chases us with a discount email. The CC Mystery 8 & 9 we have had both seemed very nice, and under £12/kg which seems hard to argue with.
> 
> ...


 If you enjoy the darker roasts of Coffee Compass then they are probably the most admired of that style.

No one can really tell you what a sweet spot is and what quality would be for you, it's so subjective .

As you can see form this thread alone , some people are amazed at the higher prices paid , some wouldn't dip below a certain price , there is no consensus .

What flavours do you like from your coffee ? Would you enjoy the more floral flavours of some different origins, if not the price is not going to make much difference for you.

You have a machine that , will give you some amazing flexibility to get the best from lighter roasted coffee though .


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> If you enjoy the darker roasts of Coffee Compass then they are probably the most admired of that style.
> 
> No one can really tell you what a sweet spot is and what quality would be for you, it's so subjective .
> 
> ...


I'm finding that we're moving slowly towards trying lighter roasts.

To be honest we've both really liked everything we've tried, and have only once bought the same bean twice (Rave Suarez Project, which I liked a lot). We are enjoying just trying different things every time, and slowly developing an idea of what we like. Buying 1kg at a time means we drink one bean for just under a month or so...

I bought some lighter roasts to use in a French Press over Christmas, and really enjoyed them. I enjoyed the fruit notes in the Daterra, which was the first time is really been struck by that.

Coming home last night we had enough of a light roast Kenyan Kimandi bean from Rave left for me to make a coffee today with the ECM. I got the grind right first time for 20:40g in 30s and it was really good.

I suppose I am just interested in hearing other recommendations. As I said we're happy to up the spend a bit.

Maybe you could explain how a bag that might be £50 a kilo might differ from something for £25 from Rave?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

rdpx said:


> I'm finding that we're moving slowly towards trying lighter roasts.
> 
> To be honest we've both really liked everything we've tried, and have only once bought the same bean twice (Rave Suarez Project, which I liked a lot). We are enjoying just trying different things every time, and slowly developing an idea of what we like. Buying 1kg at a time means we drink one bean for just under a month or so...
> 
> ...


Best way I've found of sampling different beans (& roasters for that matter) is with a dog & hat subscription & to a lesser extent (because there's only one coffee a month) the LSOL sub.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rdpx said:


> I'm finding that we're moving slowly towards trying lighter roasts.
> 
> To be honest we've both really liked everything we've tried, and have only once bought the same bean twice (Rave Suarez Project, which I liked a lot). We are enjoying just trying different things every time, and slowly developing an idea of what we like. Buying 1kg at a time means we drink one bean for just under a month or so...
> 
> ...


Some aspect of price is due to scarcity of supply and the ensuing demand.

Some difference in price is down to cup score , and prices that is paid to the farmer , and the investment made in that farm .

There are plenty of roasters around , the in my cup thread is a good place to start to see what people enjoy .

Some price difference is where the roaster themselves are able to buy bigger volumes and get a better price from a wholesaler.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

rdpx said:


> Maybe you could explain how a bag that might be £50 a kilo might differ from something for £25 from Rave?


well £25/kg is £6.25 a 250g bag & I have certainly enjoyed coffees around this price range, whether they are from Rave or not isn't really an issue.

Personally espresso & even French press are 'second choice' brew methods for me, most of my coffee is drip brewed which when great is really great, but also seems to more easily uncover aspects of the bean/roast that might not be so desirable. So, for me, I want very clean coffees. If I get something I think is darker than will really shine as drip, I'll put it in the French press/espresso machine & likely enjoy it more that way. So to some degree it depends on what you're looking for. You can have very tasty coffee around £6.50 a bag and if it suits the way you brew you may not be missing out on much.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

MWJB said:


> well £25/kg is £6.25 a 250g bag & I have certainly enjoyed coffees around this price range, whether they are from Rave or not isn't really an issue.
> 
> Personally espresso & even French press are 'second choice' brew methods for me, most of my coffee is drip brewed which when great is really great, but also seems to more easily uncover aspects of the bean/roast that might not be so desirable. So, for me, I want very clean coffees. If I get something I think is darker than will really shine as drip, I'll put it in the French press/espresso machine & likely enjoy it more that way. So to some degree it depends on what you're looking for. You can have very tasty coffee around £6.50 a bag and if it suits the way you brew you may not be missing out on much.


Method is through the ECM. That's a given.

I suppose I'll just carry on with doing what I'm doing then. As I said we've enjoyed everything so far.

I have no need to pay a big premium for a scarce bean is it isn't going to taste any better than a more available one at half the price.

I've seen some places selling very expensive bags of beans, I just wondered if they were worth the premium.

If anyone has an answer to this question beyond "it depends what you like" or "some coffees are more expensive for various reasons" I'd still be happy to hear it!


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Roasting coffee prices reflect green coffee prices. Market forces determine the value of coffee as much as quality.

As an example today I have drunk two coffees, one from Kenya and one from Costa Rica. Kenya cost me £14 per kilo (green) cup score 87. Costa Rica £38 per kilo (green) cup score 85.5. The Costa Rica is a relatively rare geisha variety so costs more due to scarcity v demand. Both are great coffees imo. I can't honestly say which one is better. It depends which one I'm drinking at the time. But they are so completely different to each other and I'm happy to pay the premium to experience the more expensive one.


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## Pollage (Dec 6, 2018)

Price varies for me but usually go to my local independent who does great bags for £7 but I have bought coffee that's cost £14 for 250g. That's only after I've learnt more about the roasters and their attitude to ethical trading. So, if I know that the roasters have gone out to the origin, that the farmers are paid fairly, and it's brought back and roasted and packaged up beautifully then I'm proud to pay the price!


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

rdpx said:


> Method is through the ECM. That's a given.
> 
> I suppose I'll just carry on with doing what I'm doing then. As I said we've enjoyed everything so far.
> 
> ...


You are asking for the impossible, a generalisation of peoples individual tastes and how much they are prepared to spend to satisfy them in order to quantify your own spend!

There are coffees mentioned in this thread that I personally would not give shed room to, there are others that I would pay more than the quoted price, because I found them to be very enjoyable.

So what is 'better' by your understanding? A taste can only be better (and therefore justify the cost) if it is 'better' for you.

The only way you will find a taste that really opens your wallet is to try what you can afford. You may drop lucky and find something your palate finds exquisite for a few pounds....or a few more!

Only your palate and budget can determine whether its worth it or not.

Other peoples palates (and budgets!) can only make suggestions as to what you may enjoy?


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

The bottom line is that your tastebuds are uniquely yours. No one can really answer the question. If you want to try something different you will.

A good place to look is HasBean. If you peruse their site you will see beans from £6.50 to £15 per 250g bag together with cup scores, taste descriptors and growing information. That might give you a better idea of why and where some beans cost more or less.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Batian said:


> You are asking for the impossible, a generalisation of peoples individual tastes and how much they are prepared to spend to satisfy them in order to quantify your own spend!
> 
> There are coffees mentioned in this thread that I personally would not give shed room to, there are others that I would pay more than the quoted price, because I found them to be very enjoyable.
> 
> ...





Batian said:


> You are asking for the impossible, a generalisation of peoples individual tastes and how much they are prepared to spend to satisfy them in order to quantify your own spend!


It's not really impossible, is it? I'm simply trying to see what people might say about their experience of trying different coffees. Although it might be hard to believe, I didn't come here for an argument, rather to try and be part of a conversation about coffee. You might have noticed that there have been couple of responses to my question that did that.



Batian said:


> Other peoples palates (and budgets!) can only make suggestions as to what you may enjoy?


Well those would be suggestions that I imagine would make interesting reading and help to move the conversation along!

I suppose what I was wondering was whether there was a world of really expensive coffee that was a whole new level


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

....

I suppose what I was wondering was whether there was a world of really expensive coffee that was a whole new level of experience that I was missing out on.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

rdpx said:


> ....
> 
> I suppose what I was wondering was whether there was a world of really expensive coffee that was a whole new level of experience that I was missing out on.


There is, but only if you enjoy those particular tastes aromas etc.... and at the price being charged for them!

For example, I guess as you are here, on a forum that revolves around speciality grade coffee, you tastes have moved on from Mellow Birds/Nescafe Gold Blend/Lavazza Espresso/Illy and so on?

The only way you will find that the £110 a kilo (green) Panamanian Geisha is better for you, and justifies the price is to try it.

I did, It didn't! But it was very nice. But not that nice!

You could always try some individual coffees in speciality coffee shops. An expensive way to buy, but a whole lot less painful than buying a kilo of something that leaves you thinking 'that was a waste of money' after the first cup and then being put off future forays.

Go have fun, explore what is available in your budget, it's a great learning experience.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Batian said:


> The only way you will find that the £110 a kilo (green) Panamanian Geisha is better for you, and justifies the price is to try it.


Great advice thanks just ordered 2kg.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Re Geisha - The made me laugh.....



A coffee site said:


> Due to the exclusive flavours of these beans, they might be roasted to order and may arrive separately if ordered with other coffees on this site.


They MIGHT be roasted to order!!!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

there is often no correlation between the wholesale cost and the retail price and taste.....marketing and availability dictate.....take Jamaican Blue Mountain (and these figures are made up). if they generally produce 500 sacks a year which command a hefty price tag of $1000 then next year they only manage 250 sacks, do you think the price will go up or down? Is that reflected in taste?

Ok, I accept that argument is flawed unless you are talking about real speciality stuff but from the limited amount I know, farmers produce a bean. Then through a variety of stages, it ends up being cupped and scored and that sets the value. I have not bought a really expensive bag before. I think £60 per kilo is the most I have paid.

But, here is a challenge and might be worthy of a new thread. Let people post links to this really expensive stuff. I do not mean highly marketed bollocks. I mean coffee which appears to be worth that extra few bucks. Then lets see if anyone is brave enough and report back


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> there is often no correlation between the wholesale cost and the retail price and taste.....marketing and availability dictate.....take Jamaican Blue Mountain (and these figures are made up). if they generally produce 500 sacks a year which command a hefty price tag of $1000 then next year they only manage 250 sacks, do you think the price will go up or down? Is that reflected in taste?
> 
> Ok, I accept that argument is flawed unless you are talking about real speciality stuff but from the limited amount I know, farmers produce a bean. Then through a variety of stages, it ends up being cupped and scored and that sets the value. I have not bought a really expensive bag before. I think £60 per kilo is the most I have paid.
> 
> But, here is a challenge and might be worthy of a new thread. Let people post links to this really expensive stuff. I do not mean highly marketed bollocks. I mean coffee which appears to be worth that extra few bucks. Then lets see if anyone is brave enough and report back


Half of the Jamaican blue mountain out there is probably not Jamaican blue mountain.....

What would expensive coffee be price wise ?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I don't think I've spent more than £9.50 -£10 on a 250g bag of beans.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I don't think I've spent more than £9.50 -£10 on a 250g bag of beans.


I'm with you on that and I even gulp at that price. (Must be the Scottish in me)


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Jason1wood said:


> I'm with you on that and I even gulp at that price. (Must be the Scottish in me)


Don't gulp it then - you want to sip and enjoy...


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

That's not quite right in my view. As far as I know, most farmers are tied into contracts that set the price long before the beans have been harvested. Price isn't relative to yield and this is why most farmers are working on razor thin margins. When the yield is bad they can end up losing money, they can't simply set the price based on actual crop yield. Supply and demand may affect some wholesale prices but on the offer lists I've seen the price has little or nothing to do with availability.

In terms of the more well-known types, Blue Mountain, Geisha, SL28 etc these command higher prices due to market expectations, in the same way Champagne commands a higher market price than Prosecco. Price is mostly reflective of what you can get people to pay based on expectation, not necessarily quality or better cupping scores which are in general highly subjective.

There are moves to make green buying more ethical but it's a commodity market so that's pushing a boulder uphill. For those roasters that take a trip to origin you can expect the cost of that to be figured into the price you pay for the coffee, not always the price the farmer gets. Trips to origin can also just form another part of the marketing strategy rather than anything to improve farm conditions or green quality, see Chris Baca's experience of this.

In addition to green costs there is often a premium based on the roaster, for instance square mile is higher than coffee compass. Again this element depends on expectations, marketing, and skill of the roaster.

Overall there are some market forces that affect price but the highest variances seem to come down to reputation, expectation, and marketing. Lovely packaging and a great website don't translate into flavours in the cup, except for placebo effect of course.

Then when you figure in factors such as the water being used, the grinder, machine, skill of the operator, style of brew there's more variance in the result. Add to that the fact that your palate changes over time and experience, and you end up being unable to quantify the value vs cost.

If you like the beans and you're happy to pay whatever they cost that's great. Paying more or less won't necessarily bring you better results. Other people may think so, but your taste may not be there yet. It comes down to individual preferences always.



dfk41 said:


> there is often no correlation between the wholesale cost and the retail price and taste.....marketing and availability dictate.....take Jamaican Blue Mountain (and these figures are made up). if they generally produce 500 sacks a year which command a hefty price tag of $1000 then next year they only manage 250 sacks, do you think the price will go up or down? Is that reflected in taste?
> 
> Ok, I accept that argument is flawed unless you are talking about real speciality stuff but from the limited amount I know, farmers produce a bean. Then through a variety of stages, it ends up being cupped and scored and that sets the value. I have not bought a really expensive bag before. I think £60 per kilo is the most I have paid.
> 
> But, here is a challenge and might be worthy of a new thread. Let people post links to this really expensive stuff. I do not mean highly marketed bollocks. I mean coffee which appears to be worth that extra few bucks. Then lets see if anyone is brave enough and report back


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Cupping scores are supposed to be objective and done to SCA guidelines in order to detect defects. If an importer sells a coffee as speciality grade with defects they have failed to detect or mark the coffee down for then their reputation will suffer.

Defects are harder to detect the further the coffee is roasted.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

SCA guidelines can't standardise tastes, as much as they try to it's still hugely subjective.



Step21 said:


> Cupping scores are supposed to be objective and done to SCA guidelines in order to detect defects. If an importer sells a coffee as speciality grade with defects they have failed to detect or mark the coffee down for then their reputation will suffer.
> 
> Defects are harder to detect the further the coffee is roasted.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tsangpa said:


> SCA guidelines can't standardise tastes, as much as they try to it's still hugely subjective.


Preference is subjective, attributes & faults can be identified with experience, whether you especially like the result or not (objective).


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Tsangpa said:


> For those roasters that take a trip to origin you can expect the cost of that to be figured into the price you pay for the coffee, not always the price the farmer gets. Trips to origin can also just form another part of the marketing strategy rather than anything to improve farm conditions or green quality, see Chris Baca's experience of this.


Did he talk about this in a video or somewhere else? I had a quick search but couldn't see this and would be interested to hear his thoughts.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

He talks about it in this one





[/QUOTE]


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Attributes are subjective - you only have to read tasting notes to appreciate how wildly subjective they can be.

Who's scored them, what sample roast profile did they use, what water is used, how does the score of say 82 break down, who agrees with the score for sweetness, body, balance, clean cup etc.

Whichever way you look at it cupping is subjective, that's why roasters cup the samples themselves, they use the score quoted by the wholesaler as a general ballpark idea then roast according to their own sample profile.



MWJB said:


> Preference is subjective, attributes & faults can be identified with experience, whether you especially like the result or not (objective).


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Preference is subjective, attributes & faults can be identified with experience, whether you especially like the result or not (objective).


Cupping scores are based on the quality of aroma, flavour, acidity, sweetness, aftertaste, body, balance, clean cup and not whether everyone agrees it tastes like rhubarb or apricot or how much they like it compared to some other coffee.

These people have highly trained palates, way beyond most of us for sure, and objectivity is absolutely paramount in their position.

Whether we like the higher scoring coffee more than a lower one is completely subjective.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Roasters cup it themselves at their own roast level to make sure that their customers will like it. The SCA guidelines lay down a very specific protocol including agtron roast level.

It makes sense for a roaster to cup at the roast level they are going to sell it using their water etc...


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

There's a variety of interpretations for scoring. Then there's a variety of ability amongst SCA qualified people. Add in the variety of roast profiles for the samples. And that's if you're talking about a score given by SCA qualified people.

How many beans give the scoring notes? Most times people are relating to an aggregated number, an 88 is better than an 81 without any awareness of the breakdown of that number across all the scoring categories and across all the tasters.

Just putting a number on it, even one created by well-trained palates, doesn't make it an objective measure, it is still very subjective. If it was objective then green buyers wouldn't ask for samples so they can cup themselves.



Step21 said:


> Cupping scores are based on the quality of aroma, flavour, acidity, sweetness, aftertaste, body, balance, clean cup and not whether everyone agrees it tastes like rhubarb or apricot or how much they like it compared to some other coffee.
> 
> These people have highly trained palates, way beyond most of us for sure, and objectivity is absolutely paramount in their position.
> 
> Whether we like the higher scoring coffee more than a lower one is completely subjective.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tsangpa said:


> Just putting a number on it, even one created by well-trained palates, doesn't make it an objective measure, it is still very subjective. If it was objective then green buyers wouldn't ask for samples so they can cup themselves.


This is how cupping began, previously greens were bought on a handshake, buyers then cupped so they didn't get caught short. If the buyers don't cup, who will?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Don't forget big data in this regard. It might be subjective to individuals but accumulation of opinions creates objectivity.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

I appreciate that, my point is that cupping scores give buyers a ballpark idea. They're subjective, not objective. The SCA guidelines and scoring are an attempt to try and quantify and standardise a subjective measure as objectively as possible, but they're far from objective.



MWJB said:


> This is how cupping began, previously greens were bought on a handshake, buyers then cupped so they didn't get caught short. If the buyers don't cup, who will?


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

There aren't that many big data scores.

Take for example this offering from Falcon Specialty that scores an 85.5 https://falconspecialty.com/products/la-cascarilla-jaen

You have no idea how that figure breaks down, how many people scored it and what the variance between those scores is. If we're talking about scores as data then where's the statistical analysis, standard deviation and statistical significance value?

Cupping scores aren't scientific, they aren't objective, they're a ballpark.



Hasi said:


> Don't forget big data in this regard. It might be subjective to individuals but accumulation of opinions creates objectivity.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Tsangpa said:


> There aren't that many big data scores.
> 
> Take for example this offering from Falcon Specialty that scores an 85.5 https://falconspecialty.com/products/la-cascarilla-jaen
> 
> ...


Well, I believe there's been numerous publications from a number of renowned scientists, SCAA researching for decades, and all that. I doubt you have read and tried and learned it all, but it sounds a bit as if you'd put your own opinion above everybody else's, no?


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

I prefer to keep the discussion on the subject rather than making comments about the character of the person.

I'd be happy to read the papers you cite if you'd like to reference them. As far as I'm aware there aren't many experiments using large sample sizes to quantify the accuracy of cupping scores. This was a point raised by Morten Munchow in 2016.



Hasi said:


> Well, I believe there's been numerous publications from a number of renowned scientists, SCAA researching for decades, and all that. I doubt you have read and tried and learned it all, but it sounds a bit as if you'd put your own opinion above everybody else's, no?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I heard Emma Sage from the SCAA do a presentation on at Square Mile a few years ago. They (SCAA and WOrld Coffee Research) created the lexicon and flavour wheel from a professional taster panel and an idea of standardising taste references by using a standard source to identify it (more or less) - though at the time most of it was American jelly or things that were potentially hard to get here. I don't know if they've progressed much from that - but hopefully an interesting point none the less

https://sprudge.com/the-science-behind-the-scaa-flavor-wheel-98677.html

https://scanews.coffee/2016/02/05/how-to-use-the-coffee-tasters-flavor-wheel-in-8-steps/


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> I heard Emma Sage from the SCAA do a presentation on at Square Mile a few years ago. They (SCAA and WOrld Coffee Research) created the lexicon and flavour wheel from a professional taster panel and an idea of standardising taste references by using a standard source to identify it (more or less) - though at the time most of it was American jelly or things that were potentially hard to get here. I don't know if they've progressed much from that - but hopefully an interesting point none the less
> 
> https://sprudge.com/the-science-behind-the-scaa-flavor-wheel-98677.html


Hmmm, this might push me more towards @Tsangpa 's viewpoint.

I think references for flavours are great, as long as you are familiar with the reference, but the flavour in a coffee can change and it still be the same coffee & still be the same quality. Sure it is less likely to do that in a cupping scenario (same time after roasting, same water, protocol, etc.) but then this is less relevant to that coffee in the wider world.

The cupping form doesn't have scores for specific flavours either (though noting them might be helpful).


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

The problem is that as soon as you try to put a quantitative measure on something that's subjective you run into problems of validity. I know the SCA do a lot of work on trying to standardise the protocols, training and qualifications but it's still a subjective experience. Even trying to quantify and define one characteristic, body, is notoriously difficult.

The cupping score that's quoted by greens wholesalers is then further abstracted because it's an aggregate score without any notes or background data to explain it. Sometimes you're lucky and get more detail in the breakdown but it's still vague. Who scored it, how many people, what's their methodology like, did they follow the protocols, are they SCA qualified etc.

Even a well-trained palate is subject to human variances. That's the reason people use refractometers to measure extraction yield rather than their tastebuds, cupping is way more subjective.

I'm not against cupping scores, but I don't believe for a second that they're a reliable, objective metric. They just flag bad batches and point in the direction of good ones.



MWJB said:


> Hmmm, this might push me more towards @Tsangpa 's viewpoint.
> 
> I think references for flavours are great, as long as you are familiar with the reference, but the flavour in a coffee can change and it still be the same coffee & still be the same quality. Sure it is less likely to do that in a cupping scenario (same time after roasting, same water, protocol, etc.) but then this is less relevant to that coffee in the wider world.
> 
> The cupping form doesn't have scores for specific flavours either (though noting them might be helpful).


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It always bothered me that the protocol for cupping is not the same as the prep method for drinking. Sort of like eating Steak Tartar to decide on the flavour when cooked? The second thing that confuses me is roaster cupping at the production roast level...yes, much more worthwhile than the specific SCAA cupping, but you can liken that to steaming a chicken, cooking it on a rotisserie or frying it. I always advi8se budding roasters to test their coffee out using the prep methods of their customers. e.g. drip, espresso machine, etc...And although it's great to do it straight after you roasted, it's an iterative process that needs to go on for a couple of weeks..


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Typically around £12-15 for a 250g, but I don't paying more once in a while for some rare coffee. Living in one of the more expensive cities coffee roasted here tends to be priced accordingly but so is the local purchasing power is greater. Mostly buying from reputable speciality roasters rarely I've gotten something that's so bad that's undrinkable, though off roasts seem to happen now and then. I drink drip brews 90% of the time, and Aeropress when travelling. In my opinion nothing makes the flavours of a coffee stand out more than a drip brew but I think it's not practical for roasters to use it to QC and compare several coffees perhaps? Also drip methods are more prone to inconsistency and I will make some mistake and pour water too fast every now and then or something similar which can be reflected in the cup.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> It always bothered me that the protocol for cupping is not the same as the prep method for drinking. Sort of like eating Steak Tartar to decide on the flavour when cooked? The second thing that confuses me is roaster cupping at the production roast level...yes, much more worthwhile than the specific SCAA cupping, but you can liken that to steaming a chicken, cooking it on a rotisserie or frying it. I always advi8se budding roasters to test their coffee out using the prep methods of their customers. e.g. drip, espresso machine, etc...And although it's great to do it straight after you roasted, it's an iterative process that needs to go on for a couple of weeks..


It bothered me too but I do usually manage to get the tastes cupping notes suggest via an espresso machine. Without much of a problem really as it usually comes down to ratios. When different roast variations are available for the same bean I may not but that could be down to a cupper using a particular one. Personally I like to see numbers too.or at least comments on things like body and acidity etc as it gives me a better idea of what to expect. Again these are opinions really like cupping scores but they have been defined by some one who tastes coffee of various types. Even then things can prove a little misleading. One bean in particular made me aware of that. I brewed using quantities etc I normally would - did it have the flavours and characteristics it should have - no way, nothing even remotely like it. For some reason I made a change to the quantity of coffee and ratio I used and then obtained the tastes exactly as described for the bean. Luck really as I was going to throw them away. Maybe this bean needs the strength and extraction levels cupping gives. If those are different. I suspect they are. Could be that sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't.

John

-


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Currently about £1.89 for a 250g bag from Aldi.

Yes, its filth, but it is drinkable filth. I can get something out of it that is no more disappointing than a Costa coffee, or indeed many high street cafes.

I'm not led to this by being in an impecunious state, more that I'm engaged in some sort of double-think whereby I'm actually trying to give up coffee for good by tricking myself into believing that coffee isnt actually that nice.

Drinking premium beans from a speciality roaster wont help with this.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Spazbarista said:


> Currently about £1.89 for a 250g bag from Aldi.
> 
> Yes, its filth, but it is drinkable filth. I can get something out of it that is no more disappointing than a Costa coffee, or indeed many high street cafes.
> 
> ...


 Good to have you back! Get some proper beans, you know it makes sense!


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