# Choosing VST Basket Size - My Thoughts



## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

After making this video, I kinda feel like what I've said is like... "duh.. obviously?!". But sod it, I have found my dialing in has much improved since making this discovery and I haven't noticed anyone else talk about the need for multi baskets (granted I've not posted so much on the forum for a while) so maybe it will be helpful to others. Or maybe it'll just cause an argument, lol, whatever, it'll be interesting.

Note: I start off by talking about VST's but really the subject is about basket size, rather than the brand itself.


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

Hi cool video and interesting. Maybe I am being dim but why not keep the dose the same and just adjust the grind finer. Why go coarser and increase the volume.


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Nod said:


> Hi cool video and interesting. Maybe I am being dim but why not keep the dose the same and just adjust the grind finer. Why go coarser and increase the volume.


I agree this is interesting, think he is dosing by weight, and coarsening the grind, which increases volume and so needs the 20g basket (a slightly misleading measurement is grammes) perhaps baskets should be measured in volume rather than mass?

Wonder if this will get a debating ball rolling?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Nod said:


> Hi cool video and interesting. Maybe I am being dim but why not keep the dose the same and just adjust the grind finer. Why go coarser and increase the volume.


The theory is that the hole sizes are an appropriate size for an ideal flow rate with a given dose and grind. Though i'm sure we've all used 17 & 19g doses in an 18g VST with success


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I use 19g doses in my 18g all the time - oddly enough it reduces the occurrences of pucks sticking to the shower screen - why that is I have no idea but it has been my last fortnight of joy..


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I always try to get my puck to about the ridge of a VST basket. I find that is the best headspace for an even extraction and a puck that doesn't stick to the shower screen. Why doesn't it stick? Don't really know. Luckily this dosing seems to be either right on the dot (ie 22g in a 22g) over 1g updosed and nice and tasty.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Wow really?

if I weigh out into an 18g basket it's sometimes far enough down that my current tamper can't tidily tamp. Updosing means still being down a bit.

do you weigh or just do it by eye? I'd be interested in knowing what sort or doses you're actually at









i did order a pile of the other baskets but I suspect as they didn't arrive before I left the UK that Has Bean are gonna get them back - boooo, I think 22g baskets with 60g plus outputs are the future


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

I'll have a look at what the exacts weights are tomorrow. But generally speaking, my best tasting shots start slow, drip, drip, drip, trickle and gradually pick up pace to finish around 35secs. If I get this type of pour, but it tastes sour, I go coarser and add an extra, say, 0.5g of coffee into the basket (a few 0.1+ secs on the timer) - otherwise at the same dose with coarser grind, the shot is gonna speed up. I'll just keep repeating this until it tastes spot on. Sometimes I get to a point where the 15g basket is not fit for purpose, i.e. too small, so I switch up to the 20g and continue where I left off (when I say it's too small, I don't mean its overflowing, it's just gone beyond it's performance envelope).

Ideally I'd now add an 18g VST to my collection, so it's not such a big jump from 15g to 20g vsts.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Was just wondering why you were jumping from a 15g basket, straight to 20g. But looks like you're already considering a 18g.

I have 18g, 20g and 22g VST baskets. Not sure whether to bother with a 15g as I rarely ever dose less than 18g?


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I don't understand why up-dosing is the answer to a sour tasting shot. If you up-dose and go coarser, will you not just be under extracting more coffee?

If it were me, I would consider letting more water run through but I wouldn't up-dose. I don't see the logic. I consider espresso to be similar to a v60 - you've got a bed of coffee with a continuous supply of fresh water running through it. If I were to up-dose my V60 then I would under extract even further.

OK - someone now please tell me why I'm wrong!


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

DoubleShot said:


> I rarely ever dose less than 18g?


I've got the 15g one coming so I can do a 1:3 ratio and not end up with too much coffee for a single flat white - suspect there will be some games to play like what Colonna & Smalls did with pressure for 14g doses.

Wisdom from the almighty Perger (May coffee be always apon him) is that you shouldn't be using dose to control flow rate, you should dose based on your desired yield and then adjust other variables to control the time taken to get to that yield. (If I've understood that series properly). It's certainly how I do things at home - I know whether I'm aiming for 1:2 1:2.5 or 1:3 (depending on my mood and the position of the planets in the sky and whether it's a darker or lighter roast) and choose my input weight to cater for this.

@fluffles I'm with ya - either increase time or increase yield, updosing isn't the answer most of the time unless you want more coffee.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Tis an EK43 thing!


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

The 15g one? Probably - that said I'm pretty ignorant about grinders that aren't an EK43, is there a big reason why you can't do 1:3 ratio on other grinders if you're using the right coffee (Assuming you can drop time so you don't over-extract)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

robashton said:


> The 15g one? Probably - that said I'm pretty ignorant about grinders that aren't an EK43, is there a big reason why you can't do 1:3 ratio on other grinders if you're using the right coffee (Assuming you can drop time so you don't over-extract)


No. You can go longer, you just get weaker drink at the same EY.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

That's what I figured - I carried a refrac around town to see what local shops were pulling at, in the progressive shops using Mazzers at slightly over a 1:2 ratio the TDS was falling down to nearly 7 (whereas on the EK that'd still be 9 or more if I recall correctly)


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

fluffles said:


> I don't understand why up-dosing is the answer to a sour tasting shot. If you up-dose and go coarser, will you not just be under extracting more coffee?
> 
> If it were me, I would consider letting more water run through but I wouldn't up-dose. I don't see the logic. I consider espresso to be similar to a v60 - you've got a bed of coffee with a continuous supply of fresh water running through it. If I were to up-dose my V60 then I would under extract even further.
> 
> OK - someone now please tell me why I'm wrong!


I think everyone has their own way of doing things, this is based on an espresso shot, so I don't want to run it any longer. You're right the terminology seems skewed, but try it. Also I must add, i probably start at 18g in my 15g basket. Tell you what, I'll let this thread run a little longer (ha!) and then do another one to follow it up/answer some Q's.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

robashton said:


> That's what I figured - I carried a refrac around town to see what local shops were pulling at, ...


I bet they love you!


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

fluffles said:


> I bet they love you!


I only did it with the friendly ones! (The folk I can ask what their recipe was so I can work out a rough EY - it was amazing how much lower shops were at compared to what they would expect and what I'd do at home, and explains why my belly has been so much happier since I started drinking my own coffee at higher EY).

I've actually lent my refrac to one of those shops so they can play around while I'm at Barista Camp as they were interested in seeing what they could push out of their gear by the use of theory rather than simply buds.

Anyway - as @smokeybarn says, folk do things differently and blindly following the Perger Wisdom is just as a bad as blindly following any other routine.

So long as you have a routine that is repeatable and leads you to a good extraction then shrug


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I guess if you're grinding too fine and experiencing micro channeling / uneven extraction then sourness can result but without all the numbers its guesswork as to whats going on


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Okay, just been messing around. Putting 15g in the 15g basket required me to take a trip to clump town. Went for the 1:2 ratio, so 30g out in 35 secs, had that kinda cheese taste/texture. Tried going coarser, same dose, 25sec still cheesey but better. Went alot coarser, hint of clumping, 17g in 34g out, 35secs. Again better but not great.

Need to come back to this later coz the temp/humidity inside this building is all over the place at the mo.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Which grinder are you using lad? Oh and which beans, ones you've roasted yourselves, presumably? I've not experienced cheesey tasting beans thus far. Think I'm missing out!


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Sanremo SR70, it's not exactly the best.


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Lol yes it's Ethiopia Sidamo Qorema. I'm not concerned coz I know how to make it taste great, just describing what I'm getting when I do things the 'normal' way.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Not familiar with either so will follow this thread with interest...

Good to see you're back making your trademark 'straight talking' videos in between following heart attack football (aka supporting Norwich, lol!)


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Have you got a refractometer? I'm going to guess not or you'd have probably mentioned it but it'd be interesting to know where you are EY-wise on the different methods as that would probably help you understand what was needed to push it in the right direction the "normal" way


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Nope, don't have a refractometer I'm afraid. Will report back soon.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

robashton said:


> I carried a refrac around town to see what local shops were pulling at





fluffles said:


> I bet they love you!


Hes getting his moneys worth out of that thing


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> Hes getting his moneys worth out of that thing


I am! Tbf I've not had it for a few weeks, I lent it to James at Back to Black to get his spro into gear for his pop-up, I think it had a similarly revelatory effect there too


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Okay, after extensive testing, the best I've got is 21g into a 20g vst, 35g out, 30sec. Bright, sweet, floral, easy to drink. I started with 15g into 15g basket and gradually worked my way coarser with a higher dose. I don't think I've changed the 'normal' extraction methods, I've just changed my proceedure for dialing in. Problem is, I'm not a lab coat type so I can't back it up with the numbers. All I can say is... try it?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

smokeybarn said:


> Okay, after extensive testing, the best I've got is 21g into a 20g vst, 35g out, 30sec. Bright, sweet, floral, easy to drink. I started with 15g into 15g basket and gradually worked my way coarser with a higher dose. I don't think I've changed the 'normal' extraction methods, I've just changed my proceedure for dialing in. Problem is, I'm not a lab coat type so I can't back it up with the numbers. All I can say is... try it?


If you have reached a tasty balance in the cup that YOU are after , then that surely is the main thing ?


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

I have been using my 15g VST in my naked portafilter for some time with excellent results. For the sake of a bit of flexibility I recently bought a 18g VST which I am also going to use with my naked. If I wan't to take it up still further I have a 20g stock basket that came with the portafilter which I use. I would like to think that I have all bases covered now.


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

m4lcs67 said:


> I have been using my 15g VST in my naked portafilter for some time with excellent results. For the sake of a bit of flexibility I recently bought a 18g VST which I am also going to use with my naked. If I wan't to take it up still further I have a 20g stock basket that came with the portafilter which I use. I would like to think that I have all bases covered now.


Sounds good, give it a go and see what you think.


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