# Thinking of giving up ...



## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

Hi, barely one month in. Purchased items below from the nice people at Black Cat Coffee on 16th February '21. ONLY used Waitrose bottled water. Did lots of reading on espresso. Not producing the coffee flavour we like - so considering offering machine and grinder for sale. The machine group head is cleaned after every use, and we have tried blends too.









1

Motta 58mm Flat Bottom Olive Wood Tamper1£21.00









1

Eureka Mignon Specialita 55mm Flat Burrs On DemandRed / Black Chute



DSW57YDXX5V2 (-£10.65)


1£355.00
£344.35









1

Izzo Alex PID Plus



DSW57YDXX5V2 (-£49.47)


1£1,649.00
£1,599.53


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Why give up? I can tell you with certainty, that there is nothing wrong with your equipments. That leaves technique and beans. You cannot learn a craft by reading a forum! Also, it may well be that the beans you have bought are not to your taste. Start off by telling us what coffee you enjoy, where it is from, what size is the drink etc etc. Once we have sorted that, technique can be addreeesed


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## Instant no more ! (Feb 17, 2015)

Hold you horse's Sir , WAAAAAAAY to early to give up

Some coffee providers do test small packs foy you to try wothout buying 250 / 500 gram packs , As said above what coffee do you like ?

Its also getting the grind correct , To course and the water gushes through the beans extrackting very little flavour / taste , To fine and it chokes the portafilter then acting like clay stopping the water flow , You need to be in the correct place , I'm just dialing in my ne machine now , I am almost done  , You have good equipment so keep at it

Are you weighing your beans ? if not each extraction will vairy , are you using a single or double basket in the portafilter , Is a single person extraction or for 2 people . We can help but need info


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

Hi, good morning, thank you for reply. Well, we have not finished it, but we have Rao's 'The professional barista's handbook'. We like occasional real espresso (short) but equally long coffees - basically a flavoursome mug of coffee. We have tried blends, but also a few of the offerings from Black Cat, and in past two weeks their Signature Blend. Why give up? - it is a big investment for coffee that is not better than our old Dualit which just requires a new pump (he says eyeing a garden where 1500 would put in some nice trees!).


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

Instant no more ! said:


> Hold you horse's Sir , WAAAAAAAY to early to give up
> 
> Some coffee providers do test small packs foy you to try wothout buying 250 / 500 gram packs , As said above what coffee do you like ?
> 
> ...


 Hi, thank you for reply. Yes, using scales and timings. Double basket. I admit it would take time, but so much coffee simply poured away and eyed raised to the ceiling!


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## Instant no more ! (Feb 17, 2015)

Denis McKeown said:


> Hi, thank you for reply. Yes, using scales and timings. Double basket. I admit it would take time, but so much coffee simply poured away and eyed raised to the ceiling!


 Double basket for 1 or 2 drinks ? I used a single basket for a single dring and found it very weak ,lacking in taste , Changed to a double basket with 18 grams of beans with the correct grind and it's now much better

You have not yet mentioned the coffee you like ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis....I have been involved in coffee as a hobby for almost 20 years.....I'm still learning today. My shots have improved and improved, at some point you get the espresso and you think you added sugar by mistake...or that latte that you never forget. Gradually these events become more and more consistent as you get to know your machine. I am involved in the design of espresso machines, roasters (I roast myself as well as teach) and grinders....even with all that knowledge, *when I am reviewing a machine, I like to use it for a month before I start writing a review*, the reason, I don't know it well enough to get the best out of it and really understand it until then....and that's with my experience!

You have some nice kit there, *but you're not giving yourself the time.* I did the top level design for the Original Duetto some 17 years ago (still have serial number 0001 in my workshop). There have been quite a few changes since then, and it's possible temperature offsets are different to what I originally advised. I used to test temperatures using my equipment which was similar to a SCACEII that came out over 12 years later. It might just be a temperature issue with your machine.. and a slight tweak of temps will fix it.

Where in the UK are you based, as there may be a member nearby who can help you. *Absolutely don't give up yet*...it's akin to having 1 month of piano lessons and deciding the Steinway piano you're using is no good. Seriously, give it time....at least 6 months.

If you can make some unlisted YouTube videos and link to them here....then we can watch over your shoulder, so to speak and offer help and suggestions.

This image is old hat, but it applies to all of us in everything we do....at the bottom two levels it's easy to get frustrated and give up. This forum will help you and from a personal perspective, everything I do in coffee as part of my hobby, is aimed at making that competence journey easier for people, or to help them on their way.


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Denis....I have been involved in coffee as a hobby for almost 20 years.....I'm still learning today. My shots have improved and improved, at some point you get the espresso and you think you added sugar by mistake...or that latte that you never forget. Gradually these events become more and more consistent as you get to know your machine. I am involved in the design of espresso machines, roasters (I roast myself as well as teach) and grinders....even with all that knowledge, *when I am reviewing a machine, I like to use it for a month before I start writing a review*, the reason, I don't know it well enough to get the best out of it and really understand it until then....and that's with my experience!
> 
> You have some nice kit there, *but you're not giving yourself the time.* I did the top level design for the Original Duetto some 17 years ago (still have serial number 0001 in my workshop). There have been quite a few changes since then, and it's possible temperature offsets are different to what I originally advised. I used to test temperatures using my equipment which was similar to a SCACEII that came out over 12 years later. It might just be a temperature issue with your machine.. and a slight tweak of temps will fix it.
> 
> ...


 Morning. Thankyou so much, I know you must be right - I know I must go back to lessons, I'm definitely at the base of this pyramid. Machine filled, turned on, with Scott's book on the table. Denis


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

Instant no more ! said:


> Double basket for 1 or 2 drinks ? I used a single basket for a single dring and found it very weak ,lacking in taste , Changed to a double basket with 18 grams of beans with the correct grind and it's now much better
> 
> You have not yet mentioned the coffee you like ?


 Hi, Emma just mentioned "Well, we like a nice mug of coffee with a nice crema" And I am hunting the perfect espresso. I use double basket and 18 gr. for two drinks, sometimes one full mug. Maybe someone can recommend a non exotic bean for beginners?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis McKeown Nice good quality medium roast Brazilian.


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Denis McKeown Nice good quality medium roast Brazilian.


 Thanks, will order some today


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## LMartin (Nov 28, 2020)

@Denis McKeown Hi Denis, sorry to hear it's frustrating you!



Denis McKeown said:


> Hi, Emma just mentioned "Well, we like a nice mug of coffee with a nice crema" And I am hunting the perfect espresso. I use double basket and 18 gr. for two drinks, sometimes one full mug. Maybe someone can recommend a non exotic bean for beginners?


 Can I clarify - 18 grams per drink or are you splitting a double espresso from one 18g basket into two single shots for yourself and your other half?

And re: "one full mug" are you pulling the espresso until it fills the mug like a lungo or adding hot water to an espresso?

(PS I'm definitely at the bottom of the hierarchy of competence and think it's really helpful to learn and troubleshoot with others - i feel your pain but don't give up)


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

LMartin said:


> @Denis McKeown Hi Denis, sorry to hear it's frustrating you!
> 
> Can I clarify - 18 grams per drink or are you splitting a double espresso from one 18g basket into two single shots for yourself and your other half?
> 
> ...


 Hi, filling the mug from the machine - I think I know I should be adding water to an espresso instead, yes. 18gr for one sometimes, evenings 18gr for two. I expect it's crowded down here at the bottom of the learning curve.


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## BruceB (Apr 1, 2021)

I'd just like to add to this. I've just gone the best part of a year with no espresso machine to practice on and just made a huge investment in some really great kit (or at least in my opinion it is!). I knew that it is unlikely to get a decent shot the first few times out of the machine, but still, when you spend a lot of money the expectation is still there in your head that really, all shots should taste amazing, straight away.

I am not an exception to that rule sadly and even knowing that beforehand, I'm hugely disappointed in what I'm pulling from the setup right now. But I know that I've got to go through a learning process, to not only remember what to do, but to adjust to a totally new setup. It just takes time and practice. It'll be worth while sticking with it and seeing a return on that investment!


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## LMartin (Nov 28, 2020)

LMartin said:


> @Denis McKeown Hi Denis, sorry to hear it's frustrating you!
> 
> Can I clarify - 18 grams per drink or are you splitting a double espresso from one 18g basket into two single shots for yourself and your other half?
> 
> ...


 @Denis McKeown crowded is good. More bodies to cushion our falls!

Sounds like you should post a video of the whole process end to end and get some non judgmental feedback from forum members.

Just initially sounds like you could be focussing on one "recipe"at a time, keeping grind, dose in, time and coffee out at a consistent rate. Then tweak one variable at a time testing what brings you closer to the perfect drink incrementally. But then again, as they say, what do I know... 🤣


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis McKeown said:


> Hi, filling the mug from the machine - I think I know I should be adding water to an espresso instead, yes. 18gr for one sometimes, evenings 18gr for two. I expect it's crowded down here at the bottom of the learning curve.


 Never just run water through the group to fill your mug...that's a massive cafe crema and not a good idea, won't taste good either. Pull an espresso amount, and then top up with water from a Kettle, or something like an Osmio.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

@Denis McKeown

You say you've got scales, let's use them. Don't run water through the group to fill a mug.

When you're producing a shot record and communicate the following:

Dose: 
Shot Weight:
Time:
Taste: Just general characterisation. Bitter, sour, tart, acidic, silty, gritty, astringent, drying, dull, smooth, thick, balanced, sweet, fatty,

As a general pointer the dose you're using should sit high up in the basket but when you lock the portafilter into the group the puck should not be disturbed. Simple test, stick a 5p on the puck, lock the portafilter in and remove, tip the coin out....if there's an imprint your dose is too high. A high dose can be lowered by grinding finer (but this may slow the shot too much), simple thing is to decrease the dose weight a little.

Shot weight is dependent on what you want and the coffee. A good starting point is a 1:2.5 ratio, or with a darker roast coffee maybe 1:2, e.g 20g dose: 50g or 40g shot respectively. You can absolutely run a longer ratio if you wish, a longer ratio gives you more room to adjust the grind setting and if you are accustomed to americanos or brewed coffee rather than straight espresso a longer ratio may be easier for you to judge.

Fill the hopper of your grinder to get the best from it. Purge 3-5g of old grinds from the grinder before the first shot of the day, maybe a little more if you're adjusting finer or coarser to dial in. Only adjust finer while the grinder is running (push the gate of the hopper shut to avoid wasting coffee). I used to pick the Mignon up and tip it upside down to avoid wasting any that gets under the gate too but that's me.

Time: don't worry about it. 25-40 seconds. A little more or less can be fine. Judge by taste not shot time. Time just communicates grind size changes all else being equal.

Crema is not an indicator of good coffee. It tastes awful by itself, best to either skim it off or mix it in. My point is a nice crema is purely a visual thing, you can get a nice crema with really bad coffee.


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

BruceB said:


> I'd just like to add to this. I've just gone the best part of a year with no espresso machine to practice on and just made a huge investment in some really great kit (or at least in my opinion it is!). I knew that it is unlikely to get a decent shot the first few times out of the machine, but still, when you spend a lot of money the expectation is still there in your head that really, all shots should taste amazing, straight away.
> 
> I am not an exception to that rule sadly and even knowing that beforehand, I'm hugely disappointed in what I'm pulling from the setup right now. But I know that I've got to go through a learning process, to not only remember what to do, but to adjust to a totally new setup. It just takes time and practice. It'll be worth while sticking with it and seeing a return on that investment!


 Hi, yes we were almost stunned by how bad our first coffee days were, and barely beating that except with pre ground supermarket coffee.


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> @Denis McKeown
> 
> You say you've got scales, let's use them. Don't run water through the group to fill a mug.
> 
> ...





DavecUK said:


> Never just run water through the group to fill your mug...that's a massive cafe crema and not a good idea, won't taste good either. Pull an espresso amount, and then top up with water from a Kettle, or something like an Osmio.


 Noted, thanking you


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> @Denis McKeown
> 
> You say you've got scales, let's use them. Don't run water through the group to fill a mug.
> 
> ...


 Thanking you, ordered some pre-ground just now, to concentrate on the Ozzo, and will order beans too ... I do think the "unusual" beans we got from Black Cat might have made things tricky for us ... will report back

Brazil Camocim Espírito Santo Organic - Roast Coffee 1kg

SKU: TRBCES1KG-TRBCES1KGE

*Grind Level*

*espresso*

Espresso


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis McKeown Pre ground might well be a problem!


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## jkb89 (Dec 10, 2014)

Why are you buying pre-ground if you have a mignon?


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## 8144 (Oct 9, 2014)

Might be worth looking for a decent local coffee shop or roastery where they offer lessons for making espresso etc etc. I think I paid 50 odd quid or so for a day course and the knowledge I gained was invaluable. If you have invested that much in your equipment it makes sense to invest a tiny fraction of that into your knowledge to give you the necessary skills. Failing that, there are thousands of videos on Youtube on pulling decent espresso, you'll probably be able to find someone with the same set-up as you so you can relate to what they're doing.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Denis McKeown said:


> Thanking you, ordered some pre-ground just now, to concentrate on the Ozzo, and will order beans too ... I do think the "unusual" beans we got from Black Cat might have made things tricky for us ... will report back
> 
> Brazil Camocim Espírito Santo Organic - Roast Coffee 1kg
> 
> ...


 Pre ground will be more hindrance than help. If you could cancel the order I would.


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## Irisco (Jun 12, 2020)

I think probably everyone "hits a wall" if they were honest probably multiple times at multiple stages. I found that at first there was just so much information you feel like your drowning in it. Its best to just go back to the absolute basics and concentrate on those . Repeat and repeat and repeat (document what you do and how its turned out as a reference) and eventually you will hit gold but good whole beans are essential in my opinion (you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear).


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> Pre ground will be more hindrance than help. If you could cancel the order I would.


 I think it shipped, will have a look, thanks. Denis


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

condy01 said:


> Might be worth looking for a decent local coffee shop or roastery where they offer lessons for making espresso etc etc. I think I paid 50 odd quid or so for a day course and the knowledge I gained was invaluable. If you have invested that much in your equipment it makes sense to invest a tiny fraction of that into your knowledge to give you the necessary skills. Failing that, there are thousands of videos on Youtube on pulling decent espresso, you'll probably be able to find someone with the same set-up as you so you can relate to what they're doing.


 Hi, I have a lot of work to do ... Scott Rao's book is excellent ...


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

jkb89 said:


> Why are you buying pre-ground if you have a mignon?


 Hi, we are just not familiar enough with the grinder - it is part of the difficulty. Denis


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## Denis McKeown (Feb 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Denis McKeown Pre ground might well be a problem!


 oops - looking into changing order.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis McKeown yup, it would be like The Systemic Kid making a Pizza and asking me to cook it in my oven .....when his fusion powered furnace does a much better job in 3 minutes!


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

Denis McKeown said:


> Hi, I have a lot of work to do ... Scott Rao's book is excellent ...


I really think the most important is the practice, not so much the theory. Pulling shot after shot, trying to change one parameter at a time, trying to get a ratio etc. Use high quality whole beans, look for the zero point in your grinder, where you choke the machine and then start opening it a bit until seeing the first drops and then opening a bit more until you get a mouse tail. Then when you are satisfied keep practicing but don't change for a while the coffee nor touch the grinder. You can of course read books, you'll find good information there, but I think some videos en Youtube and this forum will help you much more.
Don't think we all here get God shots, at least not me


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

profesor_historia said:


> I really think the most important is the practice, not so much the theory. Pulling shot after shot, trying to change one parameter at a time, trying to get a ratio etc. Use high quality whole beans, look for the zero point in your grinder, where you choke the machine and then start opening it a bit until seeing the first drops and then opening a bit more until you get a mouse tail. Then when you are satisfied keep practicing but don't change for a while the coffee nor touch the grinder. You can of course read books, you'll find good information there, but I think some videos en Youtube and this forum will help you much more.
> Don't think we all here get God shots, at least not me


 There shouldn't be any need to try to "get a ratio", you just hit the target weight...you might have to account for a little latency, killing the shot a little before target weight so that it runs on to final weight.

I suspect a lot of people grind too fine, so I wouldn't choke the machine, it tells you very little, other than you are way, way too fine. I'd try and brew as coarse as you can, whilst achieving a balance flavour & avoiding sourness/weak watery shots. If you can't get rid of sourness at any grind you try, pull to a longer ratio (more weight out...though this will make them inevitably weaker).

I have yet to see a useful espresso Youtube video...if any of them worked there wouldn't be so many people struggling.

I can't imagine what a God shot is. If you use bad coffee you get bad shots, if you use average coffee you can get fairly pleasant shots (because we like coffee & the datum is on the preferred side, rather than bad/don't know), if you use great coffee you should get nice to very nice shots. There is no mechanism to improve the taste of the coffee locked inside the bean, from average to God shot. You'd have to use God's coffee & I don't know where you get that, nor what it costs  We're making a drink by flushing hot water through it & changing the size of the particles to steer the flavour balance (you shouldn't need a video to change grind setting & you can't taste someone else's coffee from a video), we're not doing alchemy.

I suspect a God shot is what someone experiences when a shot occasionally turns out as it's simply supposed to, because a lack of consistency/control.


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## 8144 (Oct 9, 2014)

Denis McKeown said:


> Hi, I have a lot of work to do ... Scott Rao's book is excellent ...


 Hi Denis, I actually think you have less work than you think to get to somewhere approaching good coffee as compared to say learning how to play guitar and being able to play well. As others will advise, start with good quality beans, weigh each shot both in terms of coffee in and liquid out and then start with adjusting grind setting to get into a 25-30 sec window for say a shot of 18g in to 36g out. If the coffee pours out too quickly (so less than 20secs) grind finer. Too slow, grind coarser. At the beginning this is really all you have to worry about.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

A great cult comedy film Galaxy quest...well it's cult film where I come from. Never a truer word is spoken...never give up...never surrender.










P.S. this sodding classified system I'm doing, never thought I could get it working as the forum needs...but I'm nearly there now. I wasn't going to let it beat me...don't let making a good coffee beat you.


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## CraigE (Apr 1, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Denis....I have been involved in coffee as a hobby for almost 20 years.....I'm still learning today. My shots have improved and improved, at some point you get the espresso and you think you added sugar by mistake...or that latte that you never forget. Gradually these events become more and more consistent as you get to know your machine. I am involved in the design of espresso machines, roasters (I roast myself as well as teach) and grinders....even with all that knowledge, *when I am reviewing a machine, I like to use it for a month before I start writing a review*, the reason, I don't know it well enough to get the best out of it and really understand it until then....and that's with my experience!
> 
> You have some nice kit there, *but you're not giving yourself the time.* I did the top level design for the Original Duetto some 17 years ago (still have serial number 0001 in my workshop). There have been quite a few changes since then, and it's possible temperature offsets are different to what I originally advised. I used to test temperatures using my equipment which was similar to a SCACEII that came out over 12 years later. It might just be a temperature issue with your machine.. and a slight tweak of temps will fix it.
> 
> ...


 You've forgotten the valley of despair between conscious incompetence and conscious competence...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

CraigE said:


> You've forgotten the valley of despair between conscious incompetence and conscious competence...












Even Mr Ingersol made it....


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

condy01 said:


> Hi Denis, I actually think you have less work than you think to get to somewhere approaching good coffee as compared to say learning how to play guitar and being able to play well. As others will advise, start with good quality beans, weigh each shot both in terms of coffee in and liquid out and then start with adjusting grind setting to get into a 25-30 sec window for say a shot of 18g in to 36g out. If the coffee pours out too quickly (so less than 20secs) grind finer. Too slow, grind coarser. At the beginning this is really all you have to worry about.


I think this is the quintessence of this hobby, in a few words, it's not rocket science either. You described it perfectly.


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MWJB said:


> There shouldn't be any need to try to "get a ratio", you just hit the target weight...you might have to account for a little latency, killing the shot a little before target weight so that it runs on to final weight.
> I suspect a lot of people grind too fine, so I wouldn't choke the machine, it tells you very little, other than you are way, way too fine. I'd try and brew as coarse as you can, whilst achieving a balance flavour & avoiding sourness/weak watery shots. If you can't get rid of sourness at any grind you try, pull to a longer ratio (more weight out...though this will make them inevitably weaker).
> I have yet to see a useful espresso Youtube video...if any of them worked there wouldn't be so many people struggling.
> I can't imagine what a God shot is. If you use bad coffee you get bad shots, if you use average coffee you can get fairly pleasant shots (because we like coffee & the datum is on the preferred side, rather than bad/don't know), if you use great coffee you should get nice to very nice shots. There is no mechanism to improve the taste of the coffee locked inside the bean, from average to God shot. You'd have to use God's coffee & I don't know where you get that, nor what it costs  We're making a drink by flushing hot water through it & changing the size of the particles to steer the flavour balance (you shouldn't need a video to change grind setting & you can't taste someone else's coffee from a video), we're not doing alchemy.
> I suspect a God shot is what someone experiences when a shot occasionally turns out as it's simply supposed to, because a lack of consistency/control.


God shot it's an expression from Homebarista years ago, I think it's about that perfect shot when you can say you hut the sweet spot


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

profesor_historia said:


> God shot it's an expression from Homebarista years ago, I think it's about that perfect shot when you can say you hut the sweet spot


Wanted to say hit the sweet spot


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