# Filter vs Omni vs Espresso Roasts



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Moved over here to get out of LSOL and specifically Outposts Thread

I am quite enjoying the Outpost LSOL and this discussion isn't really to do with it at all



Drewster said:


> [Mounts My Traditional Hobby Horse]
> 
> Dear Outpost
> 
> ...





ohms said:


> Filter profiles are generally lighter - considering the nature of this group (and the fact everyone brews differently), I presume a criteria for this group is indeed an omni profile. That way everyone can, in theory, hit similar notes and the "correct" flavour profile.
> 
> The difference if someone brewing for espresso uses a filter profile is normally one of sourness - which nobody wants. Equally, you may find when roasting that a particular bean works well as an espresso in a filter profile - there is no steadfast rule. I'm guessing for this bean the omni brought out the right characteristics for us all to be able to access. Obviously Outpost could comment better than me - I didn't roast this bean, just my two cents.
> 
> There's a lot of grey area in roasting, there's not always a wrong, good, or right filter profile to fit everyone, imo.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

@ohms

Thanks for your reply... I think I agree with you that there is a (lets say traditional) view that filter = light through to espresso = dark

But I don't think anyone on this forum actually subscribes to this as a "rule"....

Some people like "dark roast" coffee or more accurately flavours traditionally linked to dark roasting

Some people like "light roast" coffee or ditto light...

Some people like both.

Of all these people some only drink espresso (or espresso based) drinks....

Some only drink filter (whatever that might mean).....

The roast-ness of the beans is generally irrelevant....

Some beans I prefer one way some another some both ways....

There is nothing pre-determined by any third party (roaster, barista, forum expert etc) that dictates what I like...

Therefore I cannot see how a roaster can predetermine a "method".....

UNLESS they predefine what a filter should be "like" and what an espresso should be "like"...

Some people pull really long shots via an espresso machine (particularly apparently EK43 users)....

Is the "espresso profile" equally aimed at them... or just people who pull 14g from a 7g dose??

I have never disputed that different roast profiles affect the resultant coffee.... just that it can be predetermined as "best" for a method....

(PREFERED by a person/group possibly but.....)


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Drewster said:


> @ohms
> 
> Thanks for your reply... I think I agree with you that there is a (lets say traditional) view that filter = light through to espresso = dark
> 
> ...


It's running on traditional standards for want of a better term & I suspect is easier for the layman to select a coffee that tastes like they expect it should from their prefered method.

Having said that, I've had some cracking 'spros from filter roasts so I don't think it's a hard & fast rule in the slightest.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I think the whole 'espresso roast' term is dated. As you say, no one really 'knows' what it means per se, and besides, different roasters seem to have different interpretations of it anyway. And I am pretty darn sure some roasters don't know themselves so let's just bung 'espresso roast' on the bag after all, it must mean something.

Light, medium dark . . . . Strength 1-5 . . . Let's slap that on the bag too and why bother with a roasting date at all, the main bit of info I really want to see!

I think I really got into 'light' roasts (to me that meant hitting the cooling button at the first signs of first crack) when I did more home roasting because I was so worried about the whole thing catching fire!! Yes, I had a few sour cups and learned what worked and what didn't but mostly it was ok. Even more ok now I have the kit to bring the best out of 'light' roasts.

(Disclaimer, this is just my rambling thoughts on the topic and should be taken lightly!)


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

I agree with you both - but it is not the Supermarket gumph or the layman I am concerned about....

If Asda label Coffee "Italian", "Continental", "Dark" or any other named Roast for the average Asda customer that's fine they get what they get.

Lets face it they also sell ground coffee labeled "espresso", "filter" etc but we all know it only really applies for generic "non-specialist" machines (if then).

I am talking about "high-end" or "specialist" roasters tagging beans (with a particular roast profile) as Filter or Espresso or Omni.....

Without any explanation of what that might mean......

We (coffee geeks that grind and weigh beans/dose, time shots etc) will start with a set of parameters (particular grind setting, Say 18g, 30secs circa 36g output and even fiddle with temp and pressure) and if the resulting coffee is sh!te we'll bin it and start again with a slightly different set of parameters and edge towards what we rate as "a good shot"... sometimes this will be a lot longer (or shorter) shot in a longer (or shorter) time etc.....

(We'll do similar things with "filter").

I have no issue with a roaster telling me that a particular profile is for espresso - IF he can say what/why it is better for espresso or poor for filter etc.

but just SAYING it is different is meaningless.....

akin to saying a Torr tamper is better BECAUSE it has Torr stencilled on the side.....

or Perger or whatever.....

Saying it is better BECAUSE it has a very sharp edge and is turned to a very tight tolerance to fit a specific (also tight tolerance) basket is reasonable justification (People might challenge the science/logic but because it has been presented as a reason it is defendable)

Being told a roast profile is filter/espresso/omni is moonshine until there is some explanation of "why".....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

https://www.perfectdailygrind.com/2016/08/omni-roast-one-roast-rule/

http://www.hasblog.co.uk/roasting_for_brew_method

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.scottrao.com/blog/roasting-for-espresso-vs-filter%3fformat=amp


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

https://www.assemblycoffee.co.uk/what


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Thanks Boots - good to know that it IS discussed elsewhere.....

I particularly like Scott Rao's comment that different profiles for drinking with milk vs non-milk would make more sense!! (slightly paraphrased)


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Some really, really good reading there. Thanks for the links.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Drewster said:


> Thanks Boots - good to know that it IS discussed elsewhere.....
> 
> I particularly like Scott Rao's comment that different profiles for drinking with milk vs non-milk would make more sense!! (slightly paraphrased)


I liked a lot of what SR said and especially that part. And gathering facts from the links made me think about what is meant by espresso roast from another angle. Something to cut through Big milky drinks, cafes obsessed with espresso machines/latte art (is it the cafe OR the consumer though). Yes, I use milk but 'my' flat white isn't a big milky drink whatsoever.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Drewster said:


> I agree with you both - but it is not the Supermarket gumph or the layman I am concerned about....
> 
> If Asda label Coffee "Italian", "Continental", "Dark" or any other named Roast for the average Asda customer that's fine they get what they get.
> 
> ...


Sorry, just because a roaster isn't supplying in bulk to a main stream supermarket doesn't mean they can't or indeed shouldn't follow the same traditional parameters in their listings.

Espresso (I'm talking about proper espresso here not the modern craze of topping it up into a long drink with either water or milk) is traditionally made with a dark roast as that brings out the intense flavours they were looking for just as lighter roasts have been traditionally used for other brewing methods which targeted different notes in a longer drink. Some of it will likely be down to the country of origin the beans were coming from to the countries the different brewing methods originated & what roast profile worked best with them.

Ultimately there's no right or wrong to which level of roast you use to get a drink you enjoy but if you'd given me a fruity light roast when I began making 'spros I'd have thought I was doing something wrong as it's not the flavour I was expecting.

If anything omni-roast is a bit of a misnomer the name muddies the waters.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Espresso roasts get labeled so because the roasters roast coffee in a way that they determine bring out the best flavours when brewed as espresso.

Swap the word 'espresso' for 'filter' and the same applies.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Sorry, just because a roaster isn't supplying in bulk to a main stream supermarket doesn't mean they can't or indeed shouldn't follow the same traditional parameters in their listings.
> 
> Espresso (I'm talking about proper espresso here not the modern craze of topping it up into a long drink with either water or milk) is traditionally made with a dark roast as that brings out the intense flavours they were looking for just as lighter roasts have been traditionally used for other brewing methods which targeted different notes in a longer drink. Some of it will likely be down to the country of origin the beans were coming from to the countries the different brewing methods originated & what roast profile worked best with them.
> 
> ...


I though you might be being ironic with the above but i am not so sure.

There is no proper espresso, and you are right there is no right or wrong to some degree, except there is undrinkable for on both extremes of the roast spectrum.

but if we are gonna do that, then alto of that proper espresso was drink with sugar on the side, so that intense flavour had to be masked with sugar.

Expectation of flavour in coffee can just as likely be mellow birds, as proper Italian espresso to half the population anyway.

Look roasting and bean quality have come on along way since the days of proper espresso, as have the stuff we make it with( Machines , grinders , techniques) It could be argued that a dark roast from long ago blended with robusta was the best way to hide some of the lower quality of beans or just make it easy to make espresso with and needed sugar with it to make it palatable . Hey but I wouldn't make that argument.

Ultimately the percentage of people outside of the proper espresso drinking nation of Italy







that actually drink espresso without milk is at a guess minuscule, so the to some degree it makes the debate a little academic.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> I though you might be being ironic with the above but i am not so sure.
> 
> There is no proper espresso, and you are right there is no right or wrong to some degree, except there is undrinkable for on both extremes of the roast spectrum.
> 
> ...


Imo this whole thread is a little academic and I've no qualms with people adding sugar to their drink if they prefer it that way. 

Quite honestly I find the stance that filter/omni/espresso roast shouldn't be used because the select few know better a little offensive.

Edit: I've just reread my previous post & I can't help but wonder where you pulled the term 'proper espresso' from. I was talking about 'traditional' which is another thing entirely.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

ah, this one will never go away.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Imo this whole thread is a little academic and I've no qualms with people adding sugar to their drink if they prefer it that way.
> 
> Quite honestly I find the stance that filter/omni/espresso roast shouldn't be used because the select few know better a little offensive.
> 
> Edit: I've just reread my previous post & I can't help but wonder where you pulled the term 'proper espresso' from. I was talking about 'traditional' which is another thing entirely.


Pulled it from here

"I'm talking about proper espresso"


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Imo this whole thread is a little academic and I've no qualms with people adding sugar to their drink if they prefer it that way.
> 
> Quite honestly I find the stance that filter/omni/espresso roast shouldn't be used because the select few know better a little offensive.
> 
> Edit: I've just reread my previous post & I can't help but wonder where you pulled the term 'proper espresso' from. I was talking about 'traditional' which is another thing entirely.


I too find it academic .

Ive enjoyed espresso roasts as filter, filter roasts and espresso and not enjoyed them too.

People go on about dark and light roasts ( me included, when i feel compelled to reply to these threads ) that have never roasted ( again me too ) .

Having a very very very limited knowledge from talking to a few commercial roasters there is more to a roast than the way it leaves the outside colour of a bean. Yet that is what seems to get discussed the most.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Pulled it from here
> 
> "I'm talking about proper espresso"


Ah missed that bit in the brackets.  The 'proper' I was quite blatently refering to there was the method of it being served as a short drink as apposed to mixing it into a long drink. From your reply it appears you thought I meant something entirely different?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Drewster said:


> Thanks Boots - good to know that it IS discussed elsewhere.....
> 
> I particularly like Scott Rao's comment that different profiles for drinking with milk vs non-milk would make more sense!! (slightly paraphrased)


Regarding espresso i struggle with the concept of why most roasters dont roast for their cafe offerings for milk, as thats what 99% of the drinks are. Perhaps they do, who knows.

Oh and April roasters do this already .


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I think that there is potentially so much of interest in the whole omni debate. It's just a shame that so many roasters are so dogmatic about their approach and so dismissive of other approaches. In all honesty, I find that all very weird.

The more I've spoken to people, the more it seems that those who roast for different methods may just approach the whole business of developing profiles in a different way - which seems to be largely about leaving the coffee in the roaster a bit longer for an 'espresso' roast. i.e the two profiles are the same, following the same curve but one is left in the roaster a bit longer. I suspect that this results in coffee which will appeal to some people and not to others. Personally, I never buy coffee for Espresso that is badged as an Espresso roast as I almost always find it too developed for my personal taste. I'll often enjoy 'filter' roasts in filter but often find those underdeveloped for espresso.

This means I only end up drinking Espresso from 'omni' roasters but will drink filter from roasters using either approach.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> I think that there is potentially so much of interest in the whole omni debate. It's just a shame that so many roasters are so dogmatic about their approach and so dismissive of other approaches. In all honesty, I find that all very weird.
> 
> The more I've spoken to people, the more it seems that those who roast for different methods may just approach the whole business of developing profiles in a different way - which seems to be largely about leaving the coffee in the roaster a bit longer for an 'espresso' roast. i.e the two profiles are the same, following the same curve but one is left in the roaster a bit longer. I suspect that this results in coffee which will appeal to some people and not to others. Personally, I never buy coffee for Espresso that is badged as an Espresso roast as I almost always find it too developed for my personal taste. I'll often enjoy 'filter' roasts in filter but often find those underdeveloped for espresso.
> 
> This means I only end up drinking Espresso from 'omni' roasters but will drink filter from roasters using either approach.


Is part of this not just down to giving wholesale customers something that works across a range of skill levels/extraction levels too?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Regarding espresso i struggle with the concept of why most roasters dont roast for their cafe offerings for milk, as thats what 99% of the drinks are. Perhaps they do, who knows.
> 
> Oh and April roasters do this already .


But what would the roaster do? Deliberately introduce bitterness (could make sense if we're talking about a lot of milk).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Ah missed that bit in the brackets.  The 'proper' I was quite blatently refering to there was the method of it being served as a short drink as apposed to mixing it into a long drink. From your reply it appears you thought I meant something entirely different?


Yeah misunderstood , look there hasn't probably ever been a proper espresso culture in The UK ever, so its harking back to some halcyon age that never happened


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> I too find it academic .
> 
> Ive enjoyed espresso roasts as filter, filter roasts and espresso and not enjoyed them too.
> 
> ...


Totally agree. I've never roasted either & have got my understanding through much the same way & happy to be proved wrong.

Just like the difference of results between gas or electric ovens, I suspect how a roaster is heated will have a dramatic effect of the look & moisture of the a bean when roasted to the same level.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Imo this whole thread is a little academic and I've no qualms with people adding sugar to their drink if they prefer it that way.
> 
> *Quite honestly I find the stance that filter/omni/espresso roast shouldn't be used because the select few know better a little offensive.*
> 
> Edit: I've just reread my previous post & I can't help but wonder where you pulled the term 'proper espresso' from. I was talking about 'traditional' which is another thing entirely.


I agree - Could you point out anyone that has used them in this context? If anything I think it has been implied that is it the "select few USING it that know better" and it is the dumb-arse plebs (like me) that are asking what the magic incantations mean!


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is part of this not just down to giving wholesale customers something that works across a range of skill levels/extraction levels too?


Maybe, can't speak for anyone else but I think the problem is that everyone gets entrenched in a way of thinking and it becomes like some weird dogma. The April guy completely dismisses omni and makes out that it's purely about logistics so he completely misses the point. We just approach each coffee by trying to get out as much flavour as possible while having a degree of solubility that means it can be worked with across different brew methods. It's balancing those two things. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a bit of flavour for solubility, vice versa.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> But what would the roaster do? Deliberately introduce bitterness (could make sense if we're talking about a lot of milk).


Roast it, qc it on how it tastes as a milk drink. But hey they might do that already

Question when you dial in on the morn, as you tasting it as epsresso , milk or both?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Roast it, qc it on how it tastes as a milk drink. But hey they might do that already
> 
> Question when you dial in on the morn, as you tasting it as epsresso , milk or both?


Generally just espresso. It's a good point re the milk drinks but I have to be honest and say that all coffee starts to get a bit generic for me when it's in anything more than a couple of ounces of milk. Sure, there are chocolately flatties and fruity flatties and then there is something else which seems to be tailor made for milk - your Red Bricks and the like. Also, i like the odd flat white as much as the next person but just saying that it's not a drinks which showcases the nuance of coffee particularly well.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MildredM said:


> I liked a lot of what SR said and especially that part. And gathering facts from the links made me think about what is meant by espresso roast from another angle. Something to cut through Big milky drinks, cafes obsessed with espresso machines/latte art (is it the cafe OR the consumer though). Yes, I use milk but 'my' flat white isn't a big milky drink whatsoever.


But whats the difference ? Big milk drink with more espresso in it ( possibly a little stronger or more volume of espresso used) or the "artisanal" flat white. There was that period where the flat white for some seemed to differentiate a specialty coffee menu from t'totters but its just a ubiquitous branded term now.

Anyway To some degree it's just marketing and semantics. The coffee is still roasted then got something added to it which changes the flavour profile of the stuff.

Not deliberately dissing milk drinkers here, just starting a debate. The volume of milk drinkers financially props up roasters so that I can drink me pouncey hand brewed filter coffee, which by the way has to be made by someone with a beard.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Luckily there are so many roasters to choose from. I think that's the key thing really as I now tend to think that a good roaster will be able to consistently produce coffee that they themselves are proud of and that suits their own preferences.

It's all about consistency for me. Take Tim Wendelboe as a great example - they roast coffee that I ALWAYS enjoy. The take home for me there is that they have a strong sense of what they are trying to achieve and they achieve it consistently. I'll occasionally treat myself to their coffee because I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be disappointed. Their preferences map onto mine as far as the roasting goes.

So, maybe your favourite roaster has a particular approach, or uses equipment that has an impact on the finished coffee in some way. As long as they're doing their thing consistently using good quality coffee, you'll probably continue loving their work. Finding those roasters that you know you'll love is a real joy.

All this is a bit off topic I know but getting back to the omni thing, I'll share something about one of our coffees last year. The Biftu Gudina - it was the coffee we've ever had where I didn't really like it as espresso. It was incredible as filter though and every time we tweaked the profile to make better Espresso, we lost the sparkle we'd had in filter. I actually almost considered recommending it for filter only and it made me question the omni approach.

As it happened, we released the coffee and honestly, we had so many people saying how incredible they thought it was as Espresso in milk. The acidity was getting close to face melting for me but some people just absolutely loved that about it. In the interests of openness, we had plenty of people that liked it as much as I did too 

I still think there was an omni solution there somewhere but I'd done a lot of test profiles and ended up accepting that I just hadn't completely nailed this one. What if we had? We'd have had some customers that never got to have that completely wild shot that they ended up getting.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Generally just espresso. It's a good point re the milk drinks but I have to be honest and say that all coffee starts to get a bit generic for me when it's in anything more than a couple of ounces of milk. Sure, there are chocolately flatties and fruity flatties and then there is something else which seems to be tailor made for milk - your Red Bricks and the like. Also, i like the odd flat white as much as the next person but just saying that it's not a drinks which showcases the nuance of coffee particularly well.


But what's the mix of espresso v espresso milk drink sold in the cafe?

Yes I agree re generic and how it showcases the subtle nuances of specialty coffee.

I do drink milk drinks from time to time, when i am in a rush, as I leave a filter to cool for ten minutes min when it comes to me or when i can see they are in a rush and the filter is gonna get mashed as its made.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Omni roasts in filter compromise shocker. Who'd have thunk it?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> But what's the mix of espresso v espresso milk drink sold in the cafe?
> 
> Yes I agree re generic and how it showcases the subtle nuances of specialty coffee.
> 
> I do drink milk drinks from time to time, when i am in a rush, as I leave a filter to cool for ten minutes min when it comes to me or when i can see they are in a rush and the filter is gonna get mashed as its made.


Yeah, 'with milk' drinks are 80%+ of all our drinks.


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