# 58.5mm Joe Frex tamper



## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

I've been searching recently for a 58mm+ oversized tamper for VST 15g and 18g baskets. So far, no luck. Knock seem to have all-but abandoned theirs with none to be found anywhere; I can't find any Torr in stock and I'm reluctant to run to the rarified price of a Reg Barber. All the tampers I've looked at so far (well, on-line photos anyway) are either 58.35 or 58.4mm.

But I've now found this - 58.5mm. http://www.joefrex.com/base-flat/ Has anyone any experience of Joe Frex? Would 58.5mm be OK for VST baskets? If so, I can't really see how one can go far wrong with a stainless base and turned wooden handle (usual choice of oak, walnut, beech, maple etc.). The price isn't out of the way either, at around £45 for base and handle, with USA to UK shipping included. Note: although Joe Frex do convex and rubber sleeved bases (for tapping the side of baskets), only their basic flat style is available in 58.5mm.

I'd feel more comfortable ordering with anyone's Joe Frex thoughts or experience beforehand.

Thanks,

Tony.


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## MooMaa (Jul 29, 2013)

Hi, last week I bought a torr 58.4 trapconvex Black metal its great, arrived within 5 days and with euro pound exchange price wasnt to 65 Euros inc post, from http://cafe-kultur.de/collections/tampers

Has already helped my doughnut pour problems.


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## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

If custom fit to a VST basket is important to you there's always a VST tamper, supplied with basket of your choice.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

or....

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/pergtamp


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Just measured my 18 gm VST, at 58.8 mm. I think you would need to be very careful removing the tamper or you would damage /vacuum the puck. The difference in diameter equates to 12 thou " if my calculation is correct, pretty tight ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I have no experience of these tampers

They seem cheap in comparsion to other of that ilk , so are they the same design and or tolerances of a vst/perg/torr?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

https://londiniumespresso.com/store/londinium-espresso-accessories/accessories/the-londinium-tamper


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

As a machinist, I'm staggered by how much companies charge for tampers. I wouldn't be put off by a cheap one as long as it was close to the expected size.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

risky said:


> As a machinist, I'm staggered by how much companies charge for tampers. I wouldn't be put off by a cheap one as long as it was close to the expected size.


Good point - plenty of excellent reasonably priced tampers out there. But if you want one that fits something like a VST basket to a gnat's whisker, you're going to pay over the odds.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

risky said:


> As a machinist, I'm staggered by how much companies charge for tampers. I wouldn't be put off by a cheap one as long as it was close to the expected size.


Are you going to start up a forum line of tampers then?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

risky said:


> As a machinist, I'm staggered by how much companies charge for tampers. I wouldn't be put off by a cheap one as long as it was close to the expected size.


This is meant in a nice way , and not in a sarky way , and i have no experience of lathes and machines , im not trying to denegrate what you do or your knowledge in any way ...so

Why dont you make something comparable to the fit and design and finish or a torr / perger /

I have heard a few times - how tampers like this are lumps of metal that are easy to turn on a lathe and shouldnt cost much , but then ive never seen anyone produce a home grown one for us to stack up against these bad boys ...if it can be done cheaply and easily then , please try . I am genuinely interested to see if it matches up ...


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## Brewer in training (Feb 7, 2015)

As with all products, the market would determine a lot, such as material, finish, weight, shape and most importantly, cost!

What would people be willing to pay for a mid range, hand made tamper?

And what would you be looking for? Flat, convex, changeable handle, Bluetooth compatability............ OK, maybe changeable handle may be a stretch......

If we could have a target price, I MIGHT be able to talk to someone......

Won't make a promise I can't keep, but it doesn't cost much to have a chat......


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

to the OP although more expensive the 58.55 Titanium sharps are in stock:

http://cafe-kultur.de/collections/tampers/products/torr-trapeze-flat-titanium-o-58-55-sharp-edge

If interested drop Coffee Chap a line on the torr thread to see if he got any / price etc.

Definately fit VST's.

BB also started stocking Joe Frex so could buy in the uk assuming they stocking,can't see at the moment website timing out

Hope of help

john


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> This is meant in a nice way , and not in a sarky way , and i have no experience of lathes and machines , im not trying to denegrate what you do or your knowledge in any way ...so
> 
> Why dont you make something comparable to the fit and design and finish or a torr / perger /
> 
> I have heard a few times - how tampers like this are lumps of metal that are easy to turn on a lathe and shouldnt cost much , but then ive never seen anyone produce a home grown one for us to stack up against these bad boys ...if it can be done cheaply and easily then , please try . I am genuinely interested to see if it matches up ...


The PergTamp is one where you are clearly paying for the fact it is associated with Matt Perger. Razor sharp edge? That's actually less difficulty than the 1mm radius he says is common on most other tampers. (though neither are actually difficult).

Exotic woods are also probably driving the cost up. I have no experience buying or turning wood so can't really offer any expertise there. If I make one it will have a metal handle.

Another reason for the price I presume is because these aren't exactly mass produced. I can't imagine there are many people buying $180 tampers, costs per item is higher for a smaller batch.



> I am genuinely interested to see if it matches up ...


There's no reason an identical copy can't be made (again referring to the metal base here). Obviously without having an actual one to measure I'll need to guess at the other dimensions.

I'll have a look at work tomorrow and see if we have the right materials and get started.

The reason people probably don't undertake projects to make cheap tampers is that companies are obviously making a business out of selling very expensive ones. Why do it cheaply if people are prepared to pay top dollar?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I think with tampers it can be a bit like cups; a cheap Ikea item will do but there's extra pleasure/pride in a nice, well made, well finished item with a name that means something to fellow enthusiasts. I started with a generic 58mm one that looked well enough. However it was a nuisance because I found it annoying to have to tamp NSEW with it. Measured it and found it was only 57.35. So purely to get a good fit I bought a MBK Heft 58.35. Chose it because it was the best fit for the price. If I'd have had access to a lathe (and the requisite skills) I would've made my own. But then when you see the pics of those Torr Goldfingers on CC's thread you can see how people's wallets are loosened in the presence of beauty. I'm not personally bothered about looks to the point that I'd spend more than 50 nicker on a tamper (yet!) but I can see that the looks, balance, fit and finish, exotic woods etc, alongside the branding that means you can say "mine's a Torr Ti 58.55 jacaranda" or whatever, and people would know what you were talking about, that would potentially justify the cost.

Equally if I had the machining kit and skills I would definitely make my own and (hopefully) be proud of the results and get satisfaction from using it, as well as having saved a pile of cash. But once you start doing it to sell, you have to account for cost of materials and time. Plus the sales and P&P time. Getting an offcut of stainless and turning it in your lunchtime when there's machine downtime and the gaffer isn't looking is entirely different to commercial production which is why there aren't loads of high quality low price tampers everywhere. Plenty of cheap and cheerful ones, but nice ones inevitably cost more than you'd think when you look at one.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

risky said:


> The PergTamp is one where you are clearly paying for the fact it is associated with Matt Perger. Razor sharp edge? That's actually less difficulty than the 1mm radius he says is common on most other tampers. (though neither are actually difficult).
> 
> Exotic woods are also probably driving the cost up. I have no experience buying or turning wood so can't really offer any expertise there. If I make one it will have a metal handle.
> 
> ...


Hi risky. I'd be interested in one of your custom-made machinings. I've gone for a Joe Frex 58.5mm tamper by the way (see first post in this thread), so I'll report on that when it arrives.

Tony.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Looking forward to reports on both. Will be cool to see results from yours Risky and you get a tamper full of pride to boot.

A product is worth as much as you are willing to pay or as good as the time and effort you are willing to put into it.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

teejay41 said:


> I've gone for a Joe Frex 58.5mm tamper (see first post in this thread), so I'll report on that when it arrives.
> 
> Tony.


Joe Frex 58.5mm flat tamper arrived today. Not bad shipping time from USA!

Its base is a lot thinner than a 58mm Motta, and it's a fair bit lighter too... 263g against the Motta's 350.

It fits VST baskets perfectly (I've tried it with 15 and 18g). Empty, the tamper interferes with the basket's tapering sides before it reaches the bottom, but this is deeper into the basket than it would ever have to go with coffee present. It's a perfect fit without any sideways play, and with just enough clearance inside the basket to lift it out after the polish without disturbing the tamp.

I found the handle a bit slim, but I suspect that's because I've become used to the feel of the bulbous Motta. In any case, Frex do a range of handles, which incidentally, are not interchangeable with Motta, as Frex use a smaller screw. The tamper base itself, being slimmer, seems a little less easy to get level, as its surface sinks just below the basket's rim, giving slightly less 'finger feedback'.

Surprisingly, it made quite a difference to my test shots (observed in a bottomless PF). While the extraction seemed more even, it was significantly slower, both in preinfuse and visible. Tasted OK though. Tamp pressure was the same at 30lb (Attento click mat). I reckon I shall need to coarsen the SJ's grind by about one notch. I rather think I shall persevere with the Frex, for the tamped puck looked superbly smooth with no trace of roughness round the edges... better than I've ever achieved from a 58mm, with or without nutation or NSEW. The bevel on the edge of the Frex's base is slightly more pronounced than the Motta's which is a bit more 'knife-edge' (just visible on the photo).

Cost wasn't too bad at £44.69 including (remarkably fast) shipping from USA. It attracted no Import Duty or VAT, so the price paid to Frex ($67.20 by PayPal) was the total.









Tony.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

teejay41 said:


> Joe Frex 58.5mm flat tamper arrived today. Not bad shipping time from USA!
> 
> Its base is a lot thinner than a 58mm Motta, and it's a fair bit lighter too... 263g against the Motta's 350.
> 
> ...


Great summary, thanks Tony. You're covering a greater surface area more easily with the Joe Frex's greater size so slower flow could make sense. I'm sure others will have suggestions on if you want to coarsen or tamp slightly lighter etc.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Could have used more imagination on the handle though!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Could have used more imagination on the handle though!


We need more handles that double up as trumpets


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Genius Jeebs!

Torr trapez trumpet tamper!


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

Can anyone enlighten me please, on the science behind convex and plan2convex tamper profiles and their relative merits and de-merits? In a VST basket context (15g and 18g) would there be any advantage in using either of the curved bases in preference to flat? I'm assuming that whatever shape is used, it's 58.5mm or similar, not just 58.









I must say, I'm rather taken with the write up on the Pergtamp http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/pergtamp - sounds almost tood good to be true - but it's a flat base, and if convex or compund curved shapes were not in some way better, why would they exist? The plan2convex shown above appears to have a deliberately radiused lower edge... exactly the opposite of the thinking behind the Pergtamp, so how come this can be considered an advantage?

The trapezoid shape of the edge surface makes sense. According to Pergtamp it eliminates, or at least reduces, vacuuming when removing the tamper from the compressed dose, thereby minimising any disturbance to the grinds... can't fault the thinking on that. So perhaps all oversized tampers ought to be tapered! It also claims to make nutation easier, but why would anyone want to nutate when the oversized tamper exactly fits the basket anyway? I think I must be missing something here.

Thanks in anticipation,

Tony.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I can't answer but you raise interesting questions about the merits/claims for two mutually exclusive base designs. As for nutating, I find it has the 'power' of a much heavier tamp. It usually slows my extractions down considerably, and I usually find I get 'doughnut' extractions (dry spot in centre) so now I go for a fairly simple medium pressure straight down and twist to polish.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

hotmetal said:


> I can't answer but you raise interesting questions about the merits/claims for two mutually exclusive base designs. As for nutating, I find it has the 'power' of a much heavier tamp. It usually slows my extractions down considerably, and I usually find I get 'doughnut' extractions (dry spot in centre) so now I go for a fairly simple medium pressure straight down and twist to polish.


Doesn't nutating have the effect of 'tamping the edges'? If so, that could well be the cause of your doughnuting. So two opposite remedies occur to me... either don't nutate, or use a convex tamper to make the central part of the nutated dose a bit thinner. But for that to be a sensible solution, the nutation would need to have served a purpose or provide some kind of advantage to justify it in the first place.

I realise you no longer nutate... I'm just thinking aloud. Any idea of your tamp pressure? I'm tamping consistently at 30lb - as monitored by an Attento click-mat. I've never really deviated from that.

Tony.


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## Taff (May 5, 2015)

Bella Barista are now stocking these.. bought one when I was there a couple of weeks ago to replace my cafelat 58.35. VST18g and it fits a treat! Measuresd it with my calipers and its bang on 58.5 very impressed for the money!


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