# Do I really need a grinder?



## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

Hi all. I'm wondering if I really need a fancy grinder.

Could I not get away with buying grounds beans from a supermarket? (very expensive)

That's what I've been doing recently, but the quality of the expresso gets worse as the bag gets nearer the bottom. Is that just coffee freshness?

I'll have about 6 double expressos per day, so a 250g bag doesn't last long.

From a money stand point could I buy bigger bags? Or would I be better buying a big bag of beans and a decent grinder?

If so what grinder? The MC2 is liked on here, so I'm happy to buy it. Can I ask how the Gaggia MDF compares to it?

Thanks.


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## thomss (May 9, 2011)

Seeing as how much I need to adjust the grind from bean to bean and day to day to get shots in the magic 25 second area, I'd say try your best to get a grinder!!!

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yes. And it must be fancy. With tassles.

Get 1kg bags of fresh whole beans to put in it. You'll use them up before they go stale and it works out cheaper.

Get the best grinder you can afford. It matters. More than life itself.


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

Yes absolutley!


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

When you say the "best I can afford", can you recommend a shop that sells lots of grinders so I can get used to them?

Will £200 buy me something decent if the MC2 is about £150?


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

You mentioned beans. what's more important a quality bean or a quality grinder?

Thanks.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

Beans probably. I was given some Starbucks beans that taste like *** ends; nothing's going to improve that.

If you want to just dip your feet in with decent grinders, get a £30 Porlex Mini and a bag of fresh beans. You're arm'll probably fall off after a while if you're making six doubles a day though.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Eureka Mignon at £250 gets good reviews usually, though not used one myself.

I went from an £140 MC2 to a £400 Mazzer and saw an immediate improvement. Reckon the Eureka may win on vfm


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Good grinder + bad beans = bad espresso

Bad grinder + good beans = bad espresso

If you have £200 you can get a good grinder that you won't need to upgrade for ages, if ever. Best thing in my view is to buy a reconditioned commercial machine... you can get a much better piece of kit. But that's just my view. You can also get a brand new Iberital MC2, Gaggia MDF, or several others, for upwards of £120. They are ok for home use, but have limitations as you would expect from a domestic machine, and therefore might result in an upgrade later... that is normally the case.

Shops aren't the place to buy, if you want brand new. The major suppliers are online... happydonkey, coffeehit, creamsupplies, Has Bean, Espresso Products are some you could google.

Shops in Glasgow for coffee... Artisan Roast in Gibson Street, there is a new roaster in town too and I think their beans are on sale at a place called All That Is Solid but I haven't been yet.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Hi Dougie.

*Whispers - don't let any of the regulars here me saying this or they'll all laugh their socks off*

Just been through the 'do I really need a grinder' issue and I can confidently report that you do. I got the MC2 and am happy with it but I tried all sorts of pre-ground coffee and had real trouble getting even a half decent shot. I actually ran out of beans today and thought I'd try some of the pre-ground. Big mistake. Still, tried it in the cafetiere and it's reasonable.

Get yourself a grinder - if you can afford the MC2 then think about throwing some extra money and get a more expensive one (as suggested above) or wait a few months and buy my MC2 (at a knock-down price) when I upgrade. Seriously though - get a grinder.

Al

PS - have I said 'get a grinder' enough?


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

thanks everyone. just a case of selecting a grinder now. i mentioned the gaggia because i was under the impression it had commercial burrs.

might be wrong.


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## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

onemac said:


> *Whispers - don't let any of the regulars here me saying this or they'll all laugh their socks off*
> 
> Just been through the 'do I really need a grinder' issue and I can confidently report that you do.





onemac said:


> PS - have I said 'get a grinder' enough?


Did you get a grinder in the end then Al?







lol


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

If I remember rightly (I have one) the mdf has 58mm burrs whereas a commercial grinder burrs would tend to be larger (eg 64mm) to allow for more use. But the design is the same... flat burrs.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

gazbea said:


> Did you get a grinder in the end then Al?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No - the unit on the right is one of these new-fangled thingamys that nobody knows about yet....... tamper stand, that's it. Onwards and sideways........










Al


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## humperdingle (Jan 26, 2012)

Get a grinder even just to smell the gorgeous freshness of freshly-ground beans... So much nicer than the smell of a week-old bag of pre-ground stuff. One can only assume that this difference in aroma alone makes a huge difference to the end result.


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## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

onemac said:


> No - the unit on the right is one of these new-fangled thingamys that nobody knows about yet....... tamper stand, that's it. Onwards and sideways........
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you taken a picture of my kitchen?!

Wait ... I'm wrong. Your worktop and tiling is nicer and more modern than mine! Lol

I've got the same tamper stand!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

If I was to offer buying advice to people (which I shouldn't be allowed to do...buy a rocket....buy a robur E etc etc) I would say spend more on the grinder than the espresso machine.

Just make sure the espresso machine has 58mm baskets. Then upgrade to VST, naked PF and cafelat strada 58.35mm tamper (on my wish list).

Onemac that certainly is a lot of cloths. I have one brown towel which doesn't show stains on it.


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

Do we have any threads on VFM for grinders? Best grinder up to £100, £200 or £300?


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

Rancilio rocky, gaggia mdf, ascaso I-steel, ascaso I-mini, baratza maestro, la pavoni jolly.

All the above are within the 150-300 pound bracket, cheaper second hand. I would suggest any of those are decent grinders, there isn't much between them for home use and I'd imagine every single one of those is owned by a regular on here and all will say its their favourite. I have an ascaso I-steel and it's perfectly good enough for me at the moment.

The other thing to consider is whether you want a stepped grinder or not. A stepped grinder will mean its easier to switch between a fine or coarse grind, useful if you don't just make espresso and want to grind beans for French press, or other brew methods as well and switch between the two. A stepless grinder will give you more accuracy, but almost impossible to switch between different grinds.

The rancilio, gaggia, baratza and I believe the la pavoni are stepped.

In answer to your original question is YES you NEED a grinder, without one it's like owning an airplane without wings


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> Onemac that certainly is a lot of cloths. I have one brown towel which doesn't show stains on it.


I'm.... er.... testing them all. I shall decide on a winner and have two of them - one for cleaning out the basket and another one for cleaning the steam wand (which will be damp). Might need a third for the grinder and all its loose grinds though









Al


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

One for the grouphead too, oh and one to polish the glasses and cups..... One to wipe your hands on...


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

I'll tell you what, it isn't easy to pick a grinder. Can I get more advice please?

I'm the only coffee drinker in the house. I'll have 2-3 double expressos in the morning and the same early evening. I'm thinking based on this I don't need a doser, am I correct?

I only ever drink expresso so, I don't need to keep adjusting the grind (hopefully) so, I'm thinking It doesn't need to be stepped. If someone could clear these points up for me it will help narrow things done.

I've seen the other thread on prices, doser, stepped etc. very handy.


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

I'd say both the iberital MC2 or MDF would suit you perfectly. Once you're in the ballpark, grind settings for espresso don't need to change massively, and since you're only using it for espresso then that rules out the requirement for a stepped grinder (which the MDF's are straight out of the box - they can be converted to stepless easily) and thus narrows it down to best value for money stepless grinder, which I'd say is the MC2









If it's within your budget, go for it!


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

People say a lot about dosers and stepped machines. I have both types and I have to say I love my MDF - It grinds very consistantly. To make it stepless is easy and takes about 10 minutes - although it really isn't necessary. It's a real workhorse.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

Your logic is spot on, based on your needs I'd go with the MC2


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

Ok. narrowing things down a bit.

Best prices I can find MC2 £137. Pavoni jolly £212. I really don't want to spend much more than £200 so the Pavoni is right at the top, if not slightly over budget.

Am I thinking about this too much? Are the Baratza, Acaso and Gaggia worth considering?

Thanks.


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

ive also found the baratza maestro plus £137. i mini £140. virtuoso £174.

very confused.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

There is a lot of choice out there, you can't really go wrong with any of the ones listed. I have an ascaso I-steel and love it, but I shall stick with my original recommendation for the MC2, I believe it's the best value for money


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

The rocky is about 230 doserless


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

For price to quality relation, you can't beat the MDF or MC2 which you can pick up for about 120 if you shop around.


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

MC2 for £120? very tempting, but where can it be found?

Would there be a big difference between the mc2, rocky and the pavoni?


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Dougie said:


> MC2 for £120? very tempting, but where can it be found?
> 
> Would there be a big difference between the mc2, rocky and the pavoni?


Depends on who you ask. I have a Rocky and I don't think it is better than the othjer grinders I have. It's important to get the best grinder you can, but IMO, the mid range grinders are much of a muchness. Once you get to £400 they start improving a lot again but what you're looking for is grind consistancy for espresso and any of the machines you have mentioned will serve. A lot of this is geographical too, in the UK, people tend to go for Iberital or baratzas a lot, in Germany, they used to love the Demokas for their value and build quality (before they went out of business) and are now going for the Mazzers and in the US they seem to like the MDF because of its grind consistancy. People will tell you a lot but in the end it has to be your decision.


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## ripley (Jan 16, 2012)

Dougie said:


> MC2 for £120? very tempting, but where can it be found?
> 
> Would there be a big difference between the mc2, rocky and the pavoni?


http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hd0866-iberital-mc2-auto.html

))


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Dougie said:


> MC2 for £120? very tempting, but where can it be found?
> 
> Would there be a big difference between the mc2, rocky and the pavoni?


 The only real drawbacks of the MC2 are that i) it doesn't very nice - it has an almost home-made quality to it, although it seems very reliable ii)it takes a long time to adjust the grind from espresso to anything coarser - so much so, that if you drink cafetiere or filter coffee as well, you'd want to buy a seperate (and cheaper) grinder for those brew methods.

But as an espresso-only grinder nothing can match it at that price.


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

happy donkey do it for 114+vat so 137ish.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

RoloD said:


> But as an espresso-only grinder nothing can match it at that price.


This is not necessarily true. Iberital (like Ascaso or AFEHC or Futurmat) are Catalan makers of bar equipment. They have moved into the domestic market but the technology is not always theirs. The MC2 (Iberital Challenge to give it its official name) has a burr set that is exactly the same as 3 or 4 other grinders and it is only the aesthetics that are different - the grind quality is exactly the same. Needless to say, the Iberital is the most expensive of these.



RoloD said:


> The only real drawbacks of the MC2 are that i) it doesn't very nice - it has an almost home-made quality to it, although it seems very reliable ii)it takes a long time to adjust the grind from espresso to anything coarser - so much so, that if you drink cafetiere or filter coffee as well, you'd want to buy a seperate (and cheaper) grinder for those brew methods.


This machine is like a barebones machine so it's very basic in looks. It is, to all intents and purposes, a domestic machine with a professional size hopper on it. It is typically Catalan in it's design. There used to be a fine producer of espresso wares here called Demoka (I worked for them until 2 years ago). A lot of their machines were fantastic but very basic to look at. These machines used a lot of Gaggia Española technology.

The MC2 will give you a very good grind quality (although in my opinion not as consistant as the MDF) but as I said before, at this level, the machines are much of a muchness and you need to spend over 400 to get into the higher quality machines.


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

my concern is after spending £140 on the mc2 I'll regret not putting a few more quid to it and getting something more reliable.

i popped into a roasters today and paid £6.80 for 250g of coffee which is ground too coarse for me gaggia. a bit of waste of money, if only i had my own grinder.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Just get one. You'll get £90 or so back if you sell it in a year. You've just wasted nearly £7 on a useless bag of coffee.

They are totally reliable.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Dougie said:


> my concern is after spending £140 on the mc2 I'll regret not putting a few more quid to it and getting something more reliable.
> 
> i popped into a roasters today and paid £6.80 for 250g of coffee which is ground too coarse for me gaggia. a bit of waste of money, if only i had my own grinder.


As you've seen on e-bay, these products keep their values quite well, so you'll only lose 20-30 quid or so if you change your mind six months to a year down the line, The MC2 is an OK machine and a lot of people are very happy with it. It is also reliable but not at all sexy!!! If you see someone with one in a thread, ask them what they think. You could always look for online reviews from reputable dealers or better, people who have used the machine.

As for the coffee, take it back and complain!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

xiuxiuejar said:


> This is not necessarily true. Iberital (like Ascaso or AFEHC or Futurmat) are Catalan makers of bar equipment. They have moved into the domestic market but the technology is not always theirs. The MC2 (Iberital Challenge to give it its official name) has a burr set that is exactly the same as 3 or 4 other grinders and it is only the aesthetics that are different - the grind quality is exactly the same. Needless to say, the Iberital is the most expensive of these.


 Not in the UK. The Iberital MC2 is the cheapest here - please correct me if I'm wrong somebody.

I actually sold my Gaggia MDF to buy an MC2, and with no regrets. Yes, the grind is good on the MDF but I always found I needed a grind setting in between the steps ( this can be home-modified, I know) and, more crucially, the doser is very irritating.


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

mc2 it is then. happy donkey seem to be the cheapest.

ill use the coffee somehow. not to muddy the waters but are all perculator machines the same?


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

RoloD said:


> Not in the UK. The Iberital MC2 is the cheapest here - please correct me if I'm wrong somebody.
> 
> I actually sold my Gaggia MDF to buy an MC2, and with no regrets. Yes, the grind is good on the MDF but I always found I needed a grind setting in between the steps ( this can be home-modified, I know) and, more crucially, the doser is very irritating.


If you find the Aerolatte grinders, they have the exact same insides as the MC2 but are half the price. But as for the rest, I have said, it's all personal choice. I did the MDF mod, although it was good eniugh before that. Technically, what the MDF has which is superior is the way it grinds and the speed it grinds at producing fantastic consitancy. The doesr is good for avoiding clumping although you are right, it's unnecessary. All these machines have the plus and minus points and you'll find people who love and hate certain machines.

However, my point for Dougie is, an MC2 is 10 steps up from nothing and 100 steps up from a blade or ultra cheap burr grinder. If he doesn't like it, he's not going to lose much at all.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Dougie said:


> not to muddy the waters but are all perculator machines the same?


Do you mean percolator or Mokka pot? There aren't many true percolators around these days as the method seems to have fallen well out of favour - it cycles the brewed coffee continuously the the grounds until you switch it off, and totally over-brew the coffee.

All Mokka pots (save one) work on the same principal. You can pay a fortune for a designer Alessi one, or pick one up for a few quid in T K Maxx. The best known brand is Bialetti, and the benefit of one of these is the ready availability of spares - once bought, one will last you a lifetime. Personally, if you're new to using one, I'd suggest you buy the cheapest you can find and see if you get away with it.

From my perspective, the best of the lot is the Bialetti Brikka. This is different from all the others in that there is a counterweight on top of the delivery tube that holds back the coffee until a higher pressure is reached. The resultant coffee is more like an espresso, and has a crema-like head on it.

You'll be joining in a huge coffee heritage if you use a Mokka - virtually every household in Italy uses one. I've never yet rented an apartment in Italy where there isn't one sat on top of the stove.


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## Dougie (Jan 27, 2012)

the mokka pot sounds good. but i was meaning the machines with the paper filter. what are they called?

ive got a little press that i use sometimes too, just to get rid of some coffee that's not suitable for the gaggia.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I think you're referring to a filter coffee machine. Well, the principal is always the same; strain some coffee through a paper, but the flow rate of water and temperature may vary.

I think the Aeropress is superior in many ways.


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