# Whats the next step after a 1KG roaster, more commercial?



## Coffeejon

Would you go 2.5kg or splash and go 5kg? Probably electric (if possible?) rather than gas & something that could fit in a shed / Small shop. Budget, duno what do you think would be needed? Dave any thoughts? Diedrich, giesen?


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## DavecUK

If business is good and the 1kg is definitely struggling, then I would move to a 5kg roaster. I don't think 2.5 would be cost effective if the business will grow well. You can't use electric for a 5kg roaster (or a 2.5 for that matter), it's very difficult to get an adequate supply at home on single phase and 3 phase is expensive.l would recommend gas. Gas of course brings with it certain other issues (flue, ventilation safety etc..). I would also hang on to the 1kg roaster for a while. It' good for smaller orders and roasting for post blending. Keep the 1kg until you know that you have moved beyond needing it for smaller batches, slow days and smaller amounts of blends.

I rather like the Giesen Roasters, but not cheap and I think they only have a 6, not 5kg, which is fine..


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## Coffeejon

DavecUK said:


> If business is good and the 1kg is definitely struggling, then I would move to a 5kg roaster. I don't think 2.5 would be cost effective if the business will grow well. You can't use electric for a 5kg roaster (or a 2.5 for that matter), it's very difficult to get an adequate supply at home on single phase and 3 phase is expensive.l would recommend gas. Gas of course brings with it certain other issues (flue, ventilation safety etc..). I would also hang on to the 1kg roaster for a while. It' good for smaller orders and roasting for post blending. Keep the 1kg until you know that you have moved beyond needing it for smaller batches, slow days and smaller amounts of blends.
> 
> I rather like the Giesen Roasters, but not cheap and I think they only have a 6, not 5kg, which is fine..


Many thx Dave. What do you think a setup would roughly cost approx for the 5/6kg setup. (i.e. Roaster, ventilation, etc) £20-40k? less? Just want to know what I would need to start saving towards to grow.


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## DavecUK

Coffeejon said:


> Many thx Dave. What do you think a setup would roughly cost approx for the 5/6kg setup. (i.e. Roaster, ventilation, etc) £20-40k? less? Just want to know what I would need to start saving towards to grow.


.

With the 6kg Giesen roasters I would think 20K by the time you are finished. The other option is of course to use a different make of roaster much cheaper, but you run huge risks of importing and hoping it works as they claim. e.g. Turkish/Chinese import. I know BB offer larger coffee tech roasters to the UK market (not cheap), but have thought of bringing in a cheaper 5kg, but it really needs testing fully and unlike a 1kg one, something I can't do for them at home. So would require me to travel there and help test. It's also a process that takes a long time, for me 4-6 months before I am satisfied. So as they have not even identified one yet, I think you would have a rather long wait from that source.

There is a UK vendor selling what I believe are the same roaster Mill City Roasters in the USA sell (which are a Chinese make of roaster North I think).....how good these are, I really don't know. It depends who is reviewing them, how much you trust their judgement and how independent they really are. If you are reviewing a roaster they sell, compared to reviewing something to see if it's worth stocking (as I did)....then it's a whole different ballgame. Especially when it doesn't work as it should and you ask for a redesign of key elements (as I did).

In a sense Giesen is likely to be a a totally safe choice, but an expensive one.


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## Coffeejon

You had any experience of Diedrich roasters?

http://diedrichroasters.com/coffee-roasters/ir-series-coffee-roasters/ir-5/


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## DavecUK

No


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## Coffeejon

Just for peoples interest.

The Giesen 6KG was around £21K delivered (Ex VAT). Another €2K for profiling software! ouch

The Diedrich 5KG war around £18.5K delivered (ex Vat) & including software.

Also would need to install gas, ducting etc, it ain't cheap.


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## DavecUK

As I said, tis very expensive and the cheap roasters are cheap for a reason. The Dalian needed quite a bit of work before it was what I considered OK for most users and the 5kg market is a much harder proposition to not only test, but also get the manufacturer to make changes, as the question invariably is "how many are you buying then"..." err one or two"..."nob off".

In addition the cost of purchasing test models is prohibitive and they don't give you free samples... with the 1kg I could do tests and make small mods to test ideas...strip the roaster down etc.. with a 5kg gas roaster...it's no longer that easy to do!

p.s. the cost of profiling software...ridiculous ain't it....plus there's often extras for some roasters for the additional hardware required to make full use of the already expensive software. The computer doesn't always make it better (that's down to the roaster themselves) and sometimes going for an older (10-30 years old) manual good name roaster is a better bet.


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## Coffeejon

Hi Dave

Yer the price is nuts, especially the software. As I mentioned to you before, I'm a bit more of a software guy, as the Bullet R1 is just amazing with what you can do with the software. I'm replaying previous profiles with overlays, so you can monitor the roast as you go, it is just a revelation. (Genecafe should take note, they have to add this to their roasters in the near future, otherwise I see them losing sales. If your reading this GeneCafe update the 101 for goodness sake!! we need to profile the beans, as I'm now using this roaster as a sample roaster)

The 5/6kg is charging as much for the software as the whole 1kg roaster which includes the software for free! work that one out??!!

Also the cost to step from a 5/6kg up to 12kg wasn't much more (maybe £5K) but I'm looking to house in a shed, so the 12kg is getting 'rather big' We'll see how we go. Cheers for you advice









p.s. if your ever down in Hastings way, your welcome to drop in and see the R1.


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## DavecUK

I might well take you up on the offer to see the R1...as for the smaller increase in price for the 12kg vs the 6kg, yes, that's usually the case...6kg is a good sweet spot, but at 12kg, it becomes a little large for a home based artisan roaster.


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## jefferson17

Your current 1 KG roaster will need to be kept around to profile batches, assuming that it has thermocouples for air and bean temp.

Once you want to step-up from a 1KG, you'll need a much larger roaster to make this into a successful business endeavor. You'll need at least a 12 KG unit. Bear in mind that you will only be able to roast 50-75% of a roasters capacity to achieve and maintain high quality and repeatable consistent results. So, even a 12 KG roaster will be putting out 3 roasts per hour at 6-8 KG per. If you got a smaller roaster and got only one big account, you would be very hard-pressed to keep up with a 3 or 6 KG unit.

The Mill City roaster is high quality, and they provide very good support. Scott Rao, an expert in the field, says nice things about them. He also offers consulting services at only $250/hour - you would be well-advised to spend some money with him to make sure that you are getting the right gear for your needs.

Start by taking samples to prospective customers - make sure that you would have a market to support your investment before you pull the trigger. Figure your cost will be about $4 per pound roasted coffee. Wholesale and Private Label will be probably $8 per. Direct sales could be $12 - $18 per 12 oz bag.

ADDED

I forgot to mention de-stoners. If you get into commercial roasting and start producing 100s of KG per week you will need a destoner very quickly. It is easy to miss stones with only manual observation with an IR light. If you do ... you'll end up ruining someone's expensive grinder and probably lose them as a customer (and have to pay for a new grinder). Unfortunately, a de-stoner will cost at least about $2000 but it's necessary for a roasting business.

Good luck!

J.


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## Stevie

Ressurecting this thread.

I can't believe youre talking £25k for a decent 5kg roasting setup! Mad! No one I see people opting for 10/12kg machines as they must make the economies so much more sensible.

I've been thinking about putting £10k aside to get into roasting, but it doesnt seem that gets you much...


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## Coffeejon

I'm now buying x2 1kg roasters, which gives a 4.8kg output p/h. For me this will allow me to grow a small customer base as I save for the bigger machine. The 6kg would produce x3 the amount of this, so i would need x3 the amount of sales, which is a way off yet. Also i've built my tiny business by owning my equipment, as no way do I want any loans. Slower, but grow as I sell is safer and far less stressful


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## johnealey

^ just echoed what was going to say although the phrase "you is going to look like an octopus" keeps coming to mind







(unless you following Frans and buying FZ's )

Which 2 you buying out of curiosity?

John


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## Coffeejon

johnealey said:


> Which 2 you buying out of curiosity?
> 
> John


I've got a bullet R1 & will get another one.

The reason I've bought this machine is I'm also doing a coffee shop and these roasters (Once I have a decent profile) can run the roast automatically. All I have to do is keep an eye on it and dump when needed. how are you enjoying the Dallan?


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## johnealey

Getting on really well have done my 71st roast in it and now outside temps are dropping, my very high voltage at home (regularly 249-252v) less of an impact. Although don't do it often it will happily take 1.2Kg of greens giving just over a kilo of roasted, handy as "gain" an extra 250g per roast (tended to have done this on 3rd or 4th batch when completely stable)

John


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## barry

Hi there, where did you get your Bullet from?

Many thanks

B


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## Coffeejon

barry said:


> Hi there, where did you get your Bullet from?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> B


https://aillio.com/?product=bullet-roaster-r1&v=3d9975706be3

I'd be quick as the next round of orders will ship soon.


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## DavecUK

johnealey said:


> Getting on really well have done my 71st roast in it and now outside temps are dropping, my very high voltage at home (regularly 249-252v) less of an impact. Although don't do it often it will happily take 1.2Kg of greens giving just over a kilo of roasted, handy as "gain" an extra 250g per roast (tended to have done this on 3rd or 4th batch when completely stable)
> 
> John


 I will bet you have never had to clean it in any way....well if you did, you shouldn't have. Just vacuum out under the cooling tray once every 3 months (with your usage). I wouldn't think you will have to clean it for years. I have been silently lurking on the Aillio closed user group on facebook. Seem to be a few problems, as you would expect on early production models. The main issue does seem to be cleaning and maintenance, most users seem to be doing quite significant amounts of cleaning on a very regular basis e.g. IR temp sensing window, some are cleaning every 6-8Kg??

Of course it's not a commercial roaster designed to chug out Kg after Kg for hours on end, but now costs £2100 ish depending on the exchange rate you get, so not super cheap any more...good for the home roaster, but for the home roaster who might move to a bit of commercial, doesn't seem suitable. I also worry a lot about people using the roaster indoors (I mean in a house), in case of fire. I did mention this on this forum nearly a year ago and all I got from one of the Aillio brothers, was "of course we will test it". Well I've seen no test results, so would still recommend not to roast in the house with it. Of course you could say the Dalian hasn't been fire tested, but there is a procedure, it is all solid and heavy metal and I wouldn't recommend roasting in a house with it. Of course I don't recommend you roast out in the garden in the wind and rain, but in a proper workshop or garden shed etc.. made into a roastery









As for roast quality, I can only assess by some of the few photos I have seen along with roast times. The early roasts by one owner looked very uneven, a set of roasts I looked at recently were very fast and the phrase Frogs not Toads sprung to mind. For some reason they post photos of profile curves rather than the roasts and basic times?

*edits with italics added for super clarity*


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## barry

DavecUK said:


> Of course you could say the Dalian hasn't been fire tested, but there is a procedure, it is all solid and heavy metal and I wouldn't recommend roasting in a house with it.


So you wouldn't recommend using the Dalian indoors? Or did I misunderstand you?

Many thanks

B


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## DavecUK

barry said:


> So you wouldn't recommend using the Dalian indoors? Or did I misunderstand you?


I don't know if you misunderstood me or not? Did you think for the Dalian you had to roast out in the garden with it? Or did you understand that you shouldn't roast in your house (especially kitchen), but in a workshop with space around the roaster and suitable equipment for making safe in the event of a roaster fire. Precautions are in the startup guide and in more detail in the user guide (especially what you can try in the event of a fire) as I am sure @johnealy will confirm.

I will amend the post to ensure it's absolutely clear, so others don't misunderstand


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## johnealey

Hopefully this will assist:

My Dalian is set up in a loggy cabinny shed building away from the house that has a heat detector fitted (note not smoke) with a CO2 fire extinguisher and a fire blanket at the ready should the unthinkable ever happen, which if you don't leave it unattended whilst roasting, never should. The smoke is vented via the supplied metal flexi pipe though the window and up to a clip on the roof that keeps it off the wood.

Would never roast in the house even if put all the safety elements in place as the amount of smoke alone would pretty much overpower any kitchen extractor ( I did use to use the small genie under the kitchen extractor or outside in the garden if it wasn't raining)

As to cleaning: vaccing out the tray under the cooling arms and emptying the chaff collector at the base of the cyclone with the occasional soap and water wash up of the tryer and bean hopper stopper, that's it no more and just done my 80th kilo today.

Hope of help

John


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## DavecUK

*Sounds like you have a nice safe set-up John, just remember always to have a good working torch available.*..I learnt that from my Toper days when one night it tripped all the electrics in the garage/workshop ...the beans were close to 2nd crack and my god did they start to heat up....I swear i could see em smoulder. Fortunately I was able to reset the RCD quickly.

Just clocked your voltage at home again......I think it might be well worth you installing the power control mod, it will only cost you about £6. Then you can roast at a lower wattage consumption of 2.4 or 2.5 kW. Better for the roaster, better for the roast and probably it will roast a bit faster as well!


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## barry

Thanks for the clarification. I understand you shouldn't roast in your kitchen. I was primarily thinking about roasting in the garage, with a ventilation pipe to allow the smoke to escape. I thought for a second that you were saying that wasn't recommended.

Many thanks for your time.


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## PaulL

50kg on my Dalian since Feb, similarly to DaveC and JohnH a workshop (concrete construction not wood) 60ft frlm the house and with RCD, fire extinguisher torch and smoke venting through roof apex.

I would not use a roaster like the Bullet in a kitchen with the smoke from its 1kg capacity and no venting, in fact not even if it had venting - roasters stink! I also wouldn't personally spend so much money on something built thinly like a Hot top or with plastics and proprietary controls at risk if a 1kg batch goes up in flames, if I understand it's construction correctly.

I would love to see pictures of roasts from the Bullet though, if it is producing wonderful roasts that push the roaster market forward then fantastic, we all love to see progress in grinders, machines and roasters.


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## DavecUK

barry said:


> Thanks for the clarification. I understand you shouldn't roast in your kitchen. I was primarily thinking about roasting in the garage, with a ventilation pipe to allow the smoke to escape. I thought for a second that you were saying that wasn't recommended.
> 
> Many thanks for your time.


A garage is good as is a shed, the point is you have your roaster in a properly controlled environment....you can keep a clear area around it and ensure it's all safe for roasting. Inside the house such as a Kitchen, front room or back room is just ridiculous, and for those people who say well my range hood takes care of it, I absolutely don't believe them. If you roast properly and even just to where first crack ends, you get huge amounts of smoke. Also roasting produces water, a roaster with insufficient airflow and the type of heating the Aillio does, has the potential to emit brown liquid out of the bottom.....I certainly would want to open it on a regular basis and check the electronics there!

I think for anyone thinking of roasting commercially with the Aillio, it might not be the best choice of roaster. I certainly wouldn't use one for that purpose. There is more about a roaster than temperatures and numbers, it's about drum design, airflow and other things. Some roasters just roast really good and others...not so good, in these scenarios, all the computerisation and apple/smartphone integration in the world will make no difference. Same for Espresso machines as well!


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## Coffeejon

DavecUK said:


> I think for anyone thinking of roasting commercially with the Aillio, it might not be the best choice of roaster.


100KG later and doing very well on my Aillio. (Sorry to disappoint you Dave)


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## DavecUK

Coffeejon said:


> 100KG later and doing very well on my Aillio. (Sorry to disappoint you Dave)


To help put in perspective your comments


So how often do you clean it and how long does it take, when owners are reporting the IR window alone needs cleaning every 6-10 kg and takes around an hour?

What other commercial 1kg roasters have you experience of to compare with the Aillio

How long have you been roasting on 1kg or larger roasters and have you used many different times of electric e.g. perforated drum, heating element outside, non perforated heating element inside, forced air and movement like Genecafe CBR1200, or Gas roasters 15kg 25kg etc..


Now I freely admit I have not used the Aillio, but I have read the user group very carefully and allowed for the fact many of them are new to roasters and roasting. When I compare their experience (re cleaning/maintenance per kg to mine with 1kg and larger commercial roasters, it doesn't seem similar at all. Some have even got quite good at taking their roasters apart and repairing them or cleaning them. I think it might be fine as a home roaster, but commercial, I'm not sure. I'd put 150 kg thorough a Dalian in less than a month during initial testing before I started roasting to check the changes I decided it needed and made on site....didn't need any real cleaning either, just the normal few minutes a week stuff. *You are only roasting about 18kg per month based on 10kg put through by 10/7/16. So it's less than 1kg per day. **Are you saying this is a great roaster for commercial use, because really, that's not very much usage?*



*
I would expect a 1kg roaster used to start a small business to be roasting 3-4 days per week and about 24-28kg per day. Or anything from 280kg to 412kg a month. Of course at 400kg+ per month you need think about ordering a larger roaster, in fact I did at 240kg per month.*

P.S when I had my toper many many years ago now, I'd built up to roasting 60kg per week or about 240kg every month and I had started to think about a larger roaster as a new contract to supply 30 restaurants came in, but I had to refuse it. They wanted another 30-60kg per week and that would have pushed me to 4 days a week and potentially 480kg per month. My next move would have had to have been premised a 10kg roaster, gas, destoners etc.. etc.. I declined the contract and basically ceased any commercial supply for years. Once it takes off, it becomes a big commitment and I was retired, didn't want to get into a whole new career. Of course with the 25kg probat, I could get almost 7 hours of 1kg roasting into a single 15 minute batch!!!


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## Coffeejon

Ha ha, sounds like you had a great business on yr hands!

My point being there are other ways than 'Daves Way' In my situation the only solution is the Bullet. I was previously making good money on two gene cafe 101's, the Bullet is a dream.

What ever works I say and we're on the way to saving for a bigger machine! P.s anyone is welcome to come by and check out my Aillio. Cheers


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## DavecUK

Coffeejon said:


> Ha ha, sounds like you had a great business on yr hands!
> 
> My point being there are other ways than 'Daves Way' In my situation the only solution is the Bullet. I was previously making good money on two gene cafe 101's, the Bullet is a dream.
> 
> What ever works I say and we're on the way to saving for a bigger machine! P.s anyone is welcome to come by and check out my Aillio. Cheers


Taint Daves way, it simply the way most people start (read almost everyone)...they don't start on 2 small Gene Cafes, because the customer deserves a bit more than that. I think what you've done is very much "Coffeejons way" though and I am not sure you'd be best placed to know whether the bullet is good for commercial use or not, based on the fact you're definition of good money on a couple of Gene Cafes, wouldn't match most peoples idea of good money. Just as 100kg roasted over 5 months is only evidence of 4 days commercial roasting on a 1kg roaster, not of commercial roasting capability.

The only reason I'm even posting all this is so that people get a proper perspective of what's required to try and break into the commercial roasting market as a knowledgeable counter to your opinion of the Bullet for commercial use


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## Coffeejon

DavecUK said:


> I think what you've done is very much "Coffeejons way'


Wow, I thought I was up early







thx for the acknowledgement at least!


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## lmulli

I'd just purchased a dozen or so pop corn makers and make do with those! £20k+ to roast a few coffee beans? Get outta here.......


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