# Feedback wanted on a choice of machine



## willisachimp (Apr 19, 2011)

Hi all,

The office I work in has a couple of bean-to-cup machines (a gaggia synchrony digital and a gaggia titanium) which are both getting pretty old and not making particularly great coffee any more, so I've been tasked with finding a new solution.

After a few weeks of reading up - much of it from this forum- I've got an idea of what I'm looking for, but thought I'd share with the forum and see if people concurred, or had alternative ideas.*

Firstly, I'm convinced that a separate grinder & espresso machine is the way to go, both for quality and longevity. *It will need to make around 50-100 shots a day for hopefully very many years.

I have a budget of around £1000 or just over, though VAT can come off, so call it £1200-1400.

I'm keen to have good aftersales, so bellabarista sound like a good option.

So, I was thinking this:

- Mazzer mini - £510

- Expobar Office Leva (the HX model)- £850

So here are my questions:

- the staff in the office are mostly engineers, so most will quite enjoy learning how to use the machines properly, but how tricky is it to pull a good shot with an HX machine?

- With that in mind, can you think of any alternatives you think would work better- for example a slight step down on the grinder and spending a little more on the machine?

- Any other tips for accessories and general machine set up to keep it reasonably low maintenance and reasonably tidy (although I'm very happy to spend a few minutes each day tidying and generally looking after it)

As you can probably tell, I'm quite enjoying this little task & can't wait to learn a whole lot more about making good coffee









Thanks in advance,

Will


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Will and welcome to Coffee Forums UK

Unless the machine is staffed I would (on this occasion) suggest that you stick with bean-to-cup machines unless you get buy-in from a large number of end users that they are willing to learn how to pull a good shot and steam their milk

Many will probably like the convenience of pressing a button and are likely to get frustrated at having to spend 4-5 minutes making a coffee when a machine could do it for them in less time and with a lot less fuss

With a manual solution you need to maintain grind levels, keep the hopper stocked, deal with making lots of coffee one after another another and also deal with general cleanliness of the machine

An HX machine is probably not the way forward, but a dual boiler machine would be a must - with a dedicated steam boiler.

Do you have an area where the milk jugs can be stored, kept clean etc as well?

I would imagine cost overall will rise (on a per cup basis) if you go for manual brewing - due to grind, shot and milk wastage

However, I am happy to be proved wrong


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I'm afraid that I'm with Glenn on this one - never thought I would recommend a B2C over a HX and grinder, but unless you have a large scale buy-in from most end-users then I think the HX route is a recipe for disaster.

As you will have seen from this forum, making good espresso is WORK - it needs time and expertise to get the best, and although many of your colleagues may initially applaud the purchase, they may change their minds when they realise that getting a good coffee isn't as easy as it seems. Elsewhere on this forum a member is selling a high-end HX machine after less than six months with it because he hasn't the time to do it justice - that says a lot!

Plus, who's going to do the day to day maintenance of the machine - ensuring that it is filled up with water, backflushed, de-scaled? Are you really up for cleaning up other people's mess? Who's going to do it when you are away?Who's going to adjust the grinder? (How are the enthusiasts going to like it when they get the grind just right and someone comes along and 'improves' the setting?)

However, if you are intent on going ahead with this, then I'd suggest that you rule out E-61 type machines and go for a push-button arrangement like a La Spaz, or Iberital L'Anna.

And much as I love BellaBarista and applaud their service, given the volume of shots you're contemplating, I'd be looking to a local supplier who will service on-site - possibly with a service contract included in the price.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I agree with the guys above, I put a semi automatic plus grinder into the office kitchen last year with the idea that everyone would enjoy making coffee - which they did (well the drinking bit) as long as i did all the coffee making and maintenance. I concluded that no amount of coffee enjoyment necessarily translates into a desire to become a coffee geek.

The outcome was that I gave the equipment to the one member of staff who was interested to use at home and the pair of us clubbed together and bought a different solution. In our case it was an automated drip machine, so just beans and water in the top and a fresh coffee for all the coffee fan in one go every morning. All the coffee drinkers now take their turn with making and cleaning up afterwards.

We would have loved to have put a Jura automatic into the kitchen but the budget between us would not stand it, bear in mind our staff group from a coffee point of view is only eight.

Consider a Jura or Franke machine with the appropriate duty cycle, there are a number of companies that do these machines with maintenance contracts

.

Don


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Agree with everything that's been posted already. The espresso machine and seperate grinder is really for an enthusiast and it takes a lot of time and dedication to learn the skills needed to produce decent beverages. The equipment you've mentioned would undoubtedly produce the best stuff but only in the hands of someone who knows what they're doing. Can't believe I'm saying this but I'd go "bean to cup" if I were you.


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## willisachimp (Apr 19, 2011)

Hi All,

Wow - that wasn't the answer I was expecting, so definitely gives me pause for thought!

I don't want to immediately give up on the idea, with the following justification:

- I believe I have got fairly significant buy-in - we polled the staff to find out what kind of new machine they would prefer (if any), and a large majority preferred the idea of a more manual machine. I do recognise however, that this could be naivety stemming from not understanding the complexity and patience required

- There's a strong culture of giving technical seminars in our office, and getting (for example) a trained barrista in to give a training session could be a possibility

- There is a kitchen area in which this would all sit, which would have space for a good sized knockbox, milk jugs etc, has a dish washer and we have contracted cleaners

- If we were to go down this route, we would keep at least one of the existing bean-to-cup machines, for people who weren't interested in learning how to use the new one

Having said all this, your comments have me reevaluating bean-to-cup machines. I lot of websites seem reluctant to post price listings for these kinds of machines until you contact the company directly. Are there machines available in the kind of price range I've indicated that the comunity thinks are durable enough to continue to make good coffee after many years of use?

Thanks very much for all your input so far,

Will.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Being a fairly recent joiner of the coffee fraternity, I was initially surprised by how much more there is to it all than just the machinery. To give an analogy, maybe it's like photography. Ask 100 people and most might say they'd be happy to be given some quick training in using a Digital SLR so they could produce better pics. But a DSLR needs different lenses, you have to understand aperture, focal length, start learning applications like Adobe Lightroom to develop the RAW format files etc. In reality the majority are happy to have automatic equipment for the sheer convenience.

Another consideration is that 100 shots at say 3 mins per shot (prep, grind, pull, steam, clean up) is 300 mins i.e. 5 manhours every day.

But I'm saying this in the hope that it helps your colleagues confirm that its still a YES to good espresso. Forewarned is forearmed


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

If you're going to keep one of the bean to cup machines it wont be so bad as those who want to learn and enjoy the process can... and anyone else (there will definitely be some) can use the bean to cup. It'll be interesting to see if this works out. Just make sure your job's not on the line if it doesn't


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Correct me if I'm wrong but for less than £1000 the best b2c machine that you can buy would likely be some kind of 'prosumer' home machine wouldn't it?

My concern is that even the best home b2c machine isn't up to doing 500 shots a week (I imagine most of those will be capps/lattes). I'd imagine there's a lot that can go wrong and it might end up being a lot of hassle and expensive to maintain and service.

I think if you want to go down the semi auto route, I wouldn't go for anything less than a la spaziale vivaldi s1 like vintagecigarman mentioned. La Spaziale have a great reputation for reliability and if you go for the plumbed in version it would save the hassle of having to refill it, plus vibe pumps are noisy and if your office is like ours, then there are people sat fairly close to the kitchen that might appreciate the quiet of a rotary (actually after the grinder they probably won't mind anyway!).

I really like where you're going with this and understand that you work with technical people who would understand why you need a cooling flush on a hx machine if you explained it to them but would they actually *want* to have to know? Also, if most people don't really know what they're doing, the coffee they get probably won't be any better than from a b2c, meaning ultimately it wouldn't be rewarding enough to take the time over just pressing a button.

It does seem a shame though that we are recommending a b2c, but it makes more sense in a lot of ways sadly.


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## DomesticEspresso (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi there,

I would be inclined to agree with all of the above and am also going to recommend as a (within budget) machine, the top end Delonghi b2c machine. If you check it out on their website it will give you all the spec. It has been massively popular in small offices and staff rooms etc for ease of use and as a quality piece of equipment. They are mega easy to maintain and not expensive to repair if any problems occur. I think the model is the Primadonna and if you shop around and read the reviews you will see it is highly liked and you could prob get it for about the £1000 mark.

All the best

Dave


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I'm jealous. You work for a company that is willing to go to the expense and lost man hours of not only subsidising a machine and bean cost's but is also willing to bring in a barista for a training day. Wow. All we get is a vending machine which dipenses fishy smelling sludge.


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## CoffeeClassics (Apr 19, 2011)

Hi Will

I too agree with everything that has been said. When we install a new machine we spend several hours giving staff training - I really can't see our colleagues being able to do the machine justice. And the point about cleaning is a very good one - it has to be well looked after to function properly and to last. Only takes one numpty to leave the milk wand in the milk and you'll get a contaminated boiler.

We have got a bunch of second hand Azkoyen machines in our warehouse, when the boss is back next week I'll have a chat and see if he has anything that might suit your needs / budget.

HTH


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## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

This pretty much echoes what has already been said, but in my experience there is a huge, huge difference between imagining you would like proper equipment to make proper coffee drinks and actually enjoying doing it, every time you want a coffee drink, day after day. My personal belief is that for practical purposes, interest-in-theory by the inexperienced simply is not predictive of actual follow-through.

And you know it really only takes one person who's not fully on-board and who leaves wands and baskets dirty, messes unproductively with grinds and settings, fails to refill and so on to make the experience a bit of a drag for everyone else.

So I am somewhat with the others above in thinking the office as a whole is better served with a simpler solution. I will break somewhat from the bean-to-cup suggestion, though, to suggest that perhaps a Nespresso capsule system, and its milk frothing system, are worth a look. They're inexpensive and have a lot less to break down than a bean-to-cup machine. The capsules don't go stale as beans in a hopper do. And since Nespresso offer a broad selection of capsules/flavours, there's a chance for the people in the office to customise their beverages a bit instead of settling for one-blend-fits-all as would be likely with a B2C solution. (Your company probably wouldn't stock every flavour, of course, but there's nothing to keep people from buying and trying capsules on their own and keeping a few boxes of their favourites in a desk drawer.)

Since Nespresso machines are comparatively inexpensive, if you're really lucky you might still find it in the budget to afford a manual kit as well - perhaps a Vario grinder and a simple used espresso machine to start with, then graduate upwards if you see that people really are making use of it.


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