# Niche Zero Popcorning



## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

Have had a go at trying to stop popcorning as you can see below, got the tip from home-barista.com, ordered them from Amazon USA, no postage as I am a Prime member, they just need trimming down to correct size, Velcro it in and Bob's your uncle, worked a treat for me, here is the link if anyone is interested

https://amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00080FPZM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Also got another tip, which again was a new one on me, get an Atomiser and give the beans a quick spray before grinding to reduce clumping and again it worked a treat, now this may be an old trick, sorry for that, new one for me!!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

mark8805 said:


> Have had a go at trying to stop popcorning as you can see below, got the tip from home-barista.com, ordered them from Amazon USA, no postage as I am a Prime member, they just need trimming down to correct size, Velcro it in and Bob's your uncle, worked a treat for me, here is the link if anyone is interested
> https://amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B00080FPZM/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1
> Also got another tip, which again was a new one on me, get an Atomiser and give the beans a quick spray before grinding to reduce clumping and again it worked a treat, now this may be an old trick, sorry for that, new one for me!!
> <img alt="IMG_0602.thumb.jpg.07907193fb7997ee96c5265a64cff56b.jpg" data-fileid="33504" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_11/IMG_0602.thumb.jpg.07907193fb7997ee96c5265a64cff56b.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> <img alt="IMG_0601.thumb.jpg.801f72c86fd9484bfb23ed91f8683814.jpg" data-fileid="33505" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_11/IMG_0601.thumb.jpg.801f72c86fd9484bfb23ed91f8683814.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Pringles lid also works & has the added benefit of repurposing single use plastic.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Has this made a difference to the taste or has it simply stopped the visual pop corning. You generally need some sort of weight on the beans to actually improve the grind consistency and as soon as half the beans are ground there will be headspace under that grommet and popcorning will still happen, just with less headroom.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Didn't DaveC say not to spray beans in a Niche 'cos it works against the grinder materials?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

-Mac said:


> Didn't DaveC say not to spray beans in a Niche 'cos it works against the grinder materials?


 He very probably did as it could lead to the burrs rusting. Static is pretty low on Niche even from new anyway. Very low actually.

Popcorning problem in Niche read across from flat burr grinders makes me laugh but as people sometimes like to modify things fine but don't expect it to really do anything what so ever in terms of taste especially done this way.

John

-


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I quite enjoyed watching the occasional bean do the dance of death as he tried to avoid his fate. Then never escaped it however hard they tried though.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

mctrials23 said:


> Has this made a difference to the taste or has it simply stopped the visual pop corning. You generally need some sort of weight on the beans to actually improve the grind consistency and as soon as half the beans are ground there will be headspace under that grommet and popcorning will still happen, just with less headroom.


 Not had any popcorning since using it, 5 days now, I suppose only time will tell.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

mark8805 said:


> Not had any popcorning since using it, 5 days now, I suppose only time will tell.


 That's a nice, neat job and less hassle than other solutions, but bear in mind that it won't actually stop pop corning, it'll just reduce the distance the beans jump and stop you from viewing it.

I can't remember the reason why, but Dave definitely said to never spray the beans before grinding. There's no need to anyway as the Niche has virtually zero static, which is one of the best things about it. I used to always put a couple of drops of water in with the Pharos but have never done it with the Niche.

Can you get free delivery with any US Prime product if you have UK Prime? How does customs charges work on more expensive items?


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I just use an Azera lid (the plebs I live with...) on top of the beans and it works fine!


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Jellybean lid for me...










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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

cold war kid said:


> That's a nice, neat job and less hassle than other solutions, but bear in mind that it won't actually stop pop corning, it'll just reduce the distance the beans jump and stop you from viewing it.
> I can't remember the reason why, but Dave definitely said to never spray the beans before grinding. There's no need to anyway as the Niche has virtually zero static, which is one of the best things about it. I used to always put a couple of drops of water in with the Pharos but have never done it with the Niche.
> Can you get free delivery with any US Prime product if you have UK Prime? How does customs charges work on more expensive items?


Virtually anything which roughly fits will do: I use some lids from plastic ramkins.


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## Teejay (Dec 4, 2017)

I use the aeropress clip on screen can be used two ways for large and small dowe.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

cold war kid said:


> That's a nice, neat job and less hassle than other solutions, but bear in mind that it won't actually stop pop corning, it'll just reduce the distance the beans jump and stop you from viewing it.
> 
> I can't remember the reason why, but Dave definitely said to never spray the beans before grinding. There's no need to anyway as the Niche has virtually zero static, which is one of the best things about it. I used to always put a couple of drops of water in with the Pharos but have never done it with the Niche.
> 
> Can you get free delivery with any US Prime product if you have UK Prime? How does customs charges work on more expensive items?


 Since introducing my 'Yellow Thing' had no popcorning at all and everyone is write about the spraying, I contacted Niche and they confirmed this, not that I doubted Dave one bit, it was just something new that I had read about and foolishly did not consult these Forums to get a definitive answer, thanks to all of you that answered though.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

richwade80 said:


> Jellybean lid for me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I like this idea and I LOOOOVE jelly beans, do you know which specific tin you got or was it a gift or was it this one?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

mark8805 said:


> I like this idea and I LOOOOVE jelly beans, do you know which specific tin you got or was it a gift or was it this one?
> 
> <img alt="GOURMET_JELLY_BEANS_CANISTER__400G.thumb.jpg.8ad6ea9796da8488f14f275abdcd6554.jpg" data-fileid="33582" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_11/GOURMET_JELLY_BEANS_CANISTER__400G.thumb.jpg.8ad6ea9796da8488f14f275abdcd6554.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


It'll be This jar though most likely available cheaper elsewhere.

This jar is much better value though obviously the lid won't fit a niche.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Rob666 said:


> I just use an Azera lid (the plebs I live with...) on top of the beans and it works fine!


Me too! And the orange lid looks good against the black niche

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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

mark8805 said:


> I like this idea and I LOOOOVE jelly beans, do you know which specific tin you got or was it a gift or was it this one?
> <img alt="GOURMET_JELLY_BEANS_CANISTER__400G.thumb.jpg.8ad6ea9796da8488f14f275abdcd6554.jpg" data-fileid="33582" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_11/GOURMET_JELLY_BEANS_CANISTER__400G.thumb.jpg.8ad6ea9796da8488f14f275abdcd6554.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


It's these bad boys alright.

It's Christmas soon... you're bound to get some!

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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

richwade80 said:


> It's these bad boys alright.
> 
> It's Christmas soon... you're bound to get some!
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Winging their way to me from Amazon as I speak, must be popular as many other sites had sold out, will try this method whilst happily consuming its and lots of Jelly Beans, will have to finish them really rather quickly as I need the lid??


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

mark8805 said:


> Winging their way to me from Amazon as I speak, must be popular as many other sites had sold out, will try this method whilst happily consuming its and lots of Jelly Beans, will have to finish them really rather quickly as I need the lid


Sounds like you need a spare airscape!


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## MrOrk (Apr 17, 2018)

I was looking at popcorning solutions and it seems there is always a little head space above the beans with some of the lids used, has anyone tried the use of sponge or foam? Maybe a med/high density sponge sphere, halved then attached to the lid (flat cut side attached to underside of the lid) to take up most room once the lid is closed? It could deform around the beans a little when the lid is closed and regain form as they grind, keeping a kind of positive pressure on the dose but not encroaching on the burrs? I'm thinking this would reduce a large amount of the popcorning. There are a few such spheres available on google. 
Would this make sense at all?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MrOrk said:


> I was looking at popcorning solutions and it seems there is always a little head space above the beans with some of the lids used, has anyone tried the use of sponge or foam? Maybe a med/high density sponge sphere, halved then attached to the lid (flat cut side attached to underside of the lid) to take up most room once the lid is closed? It could deform around the beans a little when the lid is closed and regain form as they grind, keeping a kind of positive pressure on the dose but not encroaching on the burrs? I'm thinking this would reduce a large amount of the popcorning. There are a few such spheres available on google.
> Would this make sense at all?


 I'd just wait a bit if I were you....bung a pringles lid in or whatever for now... don't overthink it and just wait.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

This is madness!??? Why get knots in knickers over a stray bean or two taking a micro-second longer to drop & grind?

Popcorn is a non-issue, IMHO...


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I'd just wait a bit if I were you....bung a pringles lid in or whatever for now... don't overthink it and just wait.


 This sounds a bit cryptic @DavecUK ... Something on the horizon...?

FWIW I use the lid from a Chinese teapot to reduce popcorning ?


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

A few people use these, or 3D printed variants

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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

KTD said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I can't work out if that's an interesting idea I should try or whether it will just take ages to grind... Interesting idea either way!


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## MrOrk (Apr 17, 2018)

Slowpress said:


> This is madness!??? Why get knots in knickers over a stray bean or two taking a micro-second longer to drop & grind?
> 
> Popcorn is a non-issue, IMHO...


 I think it has a direct impact on grind consistency, the more uniform the bean behaviour the more inform the grind


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## Holyzeus (Aug 28, 2019)

KTD said:


> A few people use these, or 3D printed variants
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Like the idea of that.

Any links? Can't find a thing


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Whats the thinking behind these lids beyond stopping the last few beans dancing so high or the odd chip escaping the grinder? There are putting 0 weight on the beans and are just stopping the beans from popcorning and hitting the lid. Instead they still popcorn but just hit a much lower lid.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MrOrk said:


> I think it has a direct impact on grind consistency, the more uniform the bean behaviour the more inform the grind


 Popcorning does affect grind as work done comparing single bean grinding and grinding with a full hopper shows. However, the Niche is a single dose grinder with no weight of beans above. By adding another lower lid it's not affecting how the beans feed into the burrs, just popcorning against a lower lid. If the lower lid was transparent it would show this. Maybe it's out of sight out of mind. Only an augar type system which feeds the burrs would make any difference like on an EK.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Stevebee said:


> Popcorning does affect grind as work done comparing single bean grinding and grinding with a full hopper shows. However, the Niche is a single dose grinder with no weight of beans above. By adding another lower lid it's not affecting how the beans feed into the burrs, just popcorning against a lower lid. If the lower lid was transparent it would show this. Maybe it's out of sight out of mind. Only an augar type system which feeds the burrs would make any difference like on an EK.


 Yeah, that was my thinking. You either need a weight pushing the beans in or you need an auger to drive them in. Even an auger must have its limits in a SD grinder though as there comes a point where the last X% of beans are not being driven in with any force.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> Yeah, that was my thinking. You either need a weight pushing the beans in or you need an auger to drive them in. Even an auger must have its limits in a SD grinder though as there comes a point where the last X% of beans are not being driven in with any force.


 I have been testing something (a little prototype from Niche) for a while now....will publish in a few days when I have time and go through the reasoning and results....I'm just busy with a few other things at the moment.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I have been testing something (a little prototype from Niche) for a while now....will publish in a few days when I have time and go through the reasoning and results....I'm just busy with a few other things at the moment.


 Sounds good!


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## MrOrk (Apr 17, 2018)

Stevebee said:


> Popcorning does affect grind as work done comparing single bean grinding and grinding with a full hopper shows. However, the Niche is a single dose grinder with no weight of beans above. By adding another lower lid it's not affecting how the beans feed into the burrs, just popcorning against a lower lid. If the lower lid was transparent it would show this. Maybe it's out of sight out of mind. Only an augar type system which feeds the burrs would make any difference like on an EK.


 Which is exactly what i was eluding to in my first comment.

oh ok @DavecUK, that's why I'm waiting


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Stevebee said:


> Popcorning does affect grind as work done comparing single bean grinding and grinding with a full hopper shows. However, the Niche is a single dose grinder with no weight of beans above. By adding another lower lid it's not affecting how the beans feed into the burrs, just popcorning against a lower lid. If the lower lid was transparent it would show this. Maybe it's out of sight out of mind. Only an augar type system which feeds the burrs would make any difference like on an EK.


 I agree with this - doubt it makes any difference to the grind itself.

I do keep a blank portafilter basket on top though, just seems to stop stray grinds jumping out the hopper and keep things a bit tidier!


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

@MrOrk said: "I think it has a direct impact on grind consistency, the more uniform the bean behaviour the more inform the grind"

Yes, an effect, certainly, but the alternative would mean sacrificing the benefits of using a single dose grinder.?‍♀

I suspect most of us could not tell the difference between a shot made with popcorning beans in the mix and a shot made with weighted beans (no pop-corning). Whereas, far more of us would detect the drop in quality of a shot made with sub-optimal grinds prep in the portafilter, so that's where I'd be focussing my attention & efforts with each & every dose. (I think we humans create trouble for ourselves sometimes!?? It is a terrific grinder... consider the popcorning as a loveable personality quirk.?‍♀?)


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Slowpress said:


> @MrOrk said: "I think it has a direct impact on grind consistency, the more uniform the bean behaviour the more inform the grind"
> Yes, an effect, certainly, but the alternative would mean sacrificing the benefits of using a single dose grinder.
> I suspect most of us could not tell the difference between a shot made with popcorning beans in the mix and a shot made with weighted beans (no pop-corning). Whereas, far more of us would detect the drop in quality of a shot made with sub-optimal grinds prep in the portafilter, so that's where I'd be focussing my attention & efforts with each & every dose. (I think we humans create trouble for ourselves sometimes! It is a terrific grinder... consider the popcorning as a loveable personality quirk.)


^^^^^^^^Totally agree - couldn't have said it better^^^^^^^^

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Slowpress said:


> This is madness!??? Why get knots in knickers over a stray bean or two taking a micro-second longer to drop & grind?
> 
> Popcorn is a non-issue, IMHO...


 True but it wont stop people from sticking things over the beans. Maybe one day some one will do the obvious. Hole in lid, tube in hole and weight over the dose of beans.  There is even a suitable size of tube available on ebay in acrylic / perspex.

? Do that and do you know what - it still wont grind the same way as a robur does with the hopper on.

John

-


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## Johey (Oct 12, 2019)

Why not add a proper (airtight) sealing to the lid and a bicycle valve. During grinding create overpressure with a pump which will push the beans down to the burrs ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Johey said:


> Why not add a proper (airtight) sealing to the lid and a bicycle valve. During grinding create overpressure with a pump which will push the beans down to the burrs ?


 Just push em in with your fingers....


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## Johey (Oct 12, 2019)

Sorry, I didn't want to make fun of the guys who have an issue with popcorning and who have some creative ideas to minimise it.

I personally just don't believe that I will ever taste a difference...

...but now I am interested what Niche is planning to do. Looking forward to see what @DavecUK will unveil in few days.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

This would probably fix it.









 Whoops forgot to mention that the idea is to miss the grinder so that upwards acceleration creates a downwards g force to keep the beans down on the burrs and also speeds up the rate the grinds go through them. Consistency achieved by always just about ringing the bell.

John

-


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## MrOrk (Apr 17, 2018)

It's just you read up on single dosing commercial grinders, the Ceado 37s for example or maybe a Mazzer major and if people have sorted the retention shortfalls, the next issue is they don't taste right unless they run with a full hopper or weight over the beans. Suggesting that the behaviour of the single dose when ground is a variable that effects consistency/taste. So it is seen as an issue, by some, when considering a grinder.

Now people are playing with Popcorning remedy's for the Niche they are all of a sudden doing so in vein or over thinking things


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MrOrk said:


> It's just you read up on single dosing commercial grinders, the Ceado 37s for example or maybe a Mazzer major and if people have sorted the retention shortfalls, the next issue is they don't taste right unless they run with a full hopper or weight over the beans. Suggesting that the behaviour of the single dose when ground is a variable that effects consistency/taste. So it is seen as an issue, by some, when considering a grinder.
> 
> Now people are playing with Popcorning remedy's for the Niche they are all of a sudden doing so in vein or over thinking things


 It's not a 'variable' if always run one way, or the other. There have been cases both for and against single dose/hopper fed.

It would take longer to read this thread than to ascertain whether the popcorning/measures people are using have any effect. Either way, whether you want to use a countermeasure, or not, being consistent & focussing on other areas is much more likely to make your coffee taste right.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

and remember, the old phrase 'coffeebollocks'....for many there is a wall that you cannot climb, meaning for many their tastebuds will not detect the unmeasurable differences some of these useful suggestions towards coffee nirvana make. Does the average coffee house have the time to pursue the ritualistic methods some home users go through to reach coffee heaven? I have seen videos lasting 3 minutes to make one cup.....compared to a decent on demand in a cafe......grind, tamp, pour, onto the next one


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

ajohn said:


> This would probably fix it.
> <img alt="PopCorn.jpg.eaab12091a60dc70473d40ebb5959138.jpg" data-fileid="33716" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_11/PopCorn.jpg.eaab12091a60dc70473d40ebb5959138.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> Whoops forgot to mention that the idea is to miss the grinder so that upwards acceleration creates a downwards g force to keep the beans down on the burrs and also speeds up the rate the grinds go through them. Consistency achieved by always just about ringing the bell.
> John
> -




although, hitting the Niche right on its lid (as per your illustration) would solve all popcorning issues likewise


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Nah. You'd need a longer power cable.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

-Mac said:


> Nah. You'd need a longer power cable.


 Agreed. I've got travel kettles with longer cables ?


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## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

Johey said:


> Sorry, I didn't want to make fun of the guys who have an issue with popcorning and who have some creative ideas to minimise it.
> I personally just don't believe that I will ever taste a difference...
> ...but now I am interested what Niche is planning to do. Looking forward to see what @DavecUK will unveil in few days.


You missed the point although it is mentioned even on this thread. The pringle lids are not about grind quality. Just a quick and easy fix for pieces of grind getting where there they are not supposed to...


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

martinierius said:


> You missed the point although it is mentioned even on this thread. The pringle lids are not about grind quality. Just a quick and easy fix for pieces of grind getting where there they are not supposed to...


Like the safety catch.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

These have always seemed so pointless to me . A lid under a lid. When you get to the last beans they are still going to jump, only you can't see it happen now.

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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ajohn said:


> This would probably fix it.
> 
> 
> View attachment 33716
> ...


 Probably the single best piece of advice so far


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Now, Now


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)




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## Johey (Oct 12, 2019)

martinierius said:


> Johey said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I didn't want to make fun of the guys who have an issue with popcorning and who have some creative ideas to minimise it.
> ...


 Now I really don't get it. You're saying that the popcorning has no impact on grind quality. So the Pringle lids (or any other shown solutions) are not for improving the grind quality. Why would you do it then?

Anyhow, I don't need to understand and just enjoy my Niche every day.

Only from a technical point of view I would be interested in Niche's solution Dave mentioned...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

martinierius said:


> Johey said:
> 
> 
> > Sorry, I didn't want to make fun of the guys who have an issue with popcorning and who have some creative ideas to minimise it.
> ...


 True but popcorning is mentioned in relationship to weighing in on flat burr grinders - causes taste changes compared with use hopper on etc and antistatic bits in place. What isn't mentioned is that there are other factors involved that have nothing what so ever to do with beans bouncing about and sticking a weight over the beans doesn't do anything about them. It does prevent the inside of a rubber lens hood from getting covered in bits of beans and also speeds up grinding a touch but that is about it. So along comes a famous video reviewer that says they wonder about Niche popcorning not from a bits getting out but from a grind point of view. Oh dear.

Where the weight serves another purpose is when people remove a rather large hopper from a grinder and replace it with a tube to hold several doses of beans. Again on flat burr grinders that can give a more consistent weight driving the beans into the burrs allowing more accurate timed grinds. Curious thing is that conical are less prone to having that problem but there is nothing curious about it at all really. That style of burr tends to self feed. Gravity just gets the beans there. Flat use centrifugal force.

John

-


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## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

Johey said:


> Now I really don't get it. You're saying that the popcorning has no impact on grind quality. So the Pringle lids (or any other shown solutions) are not for improving the grind quality. Why would you do it then?
> Anyhow, I don't need to understand and just enjoy my Niche every day.
> Only from a technical point of view I would be interested in Niche's solution Dave mentioned...


Take your time 

Anyway, I'm curious as to the results of the plastic thingie as wel. Maybe it even improves the grind quality ;-)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Johey said:


> Now I really don't get it. You're saying that the popcorning has no impact on grind quality. So the Pringle lids (or any other shown solutions) are not for improving the grind quality. Why would you do it then?
> 
> Anyhow, I don't need to understand and just enjoy my Niche every day.
> 
> Only from a technical point of view I would be interested in Niche's solution Dave mentioned...


 As @martinierius said, you get bits of coffee bean scattered around the top of the grinder, inside the lid. It hasn't caused me any issues as yet but some are concerned about these bits getting into the adjustment thread & safety switch.

Grind quality is everyone's favourite buzz phrase, but no one seems to be able to tell you what it is. If you want grind quality that is in some way abnormal, you either spend next to no money on a grinder, or thousands.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> These have always seemed so pointless to me . A lid under a lid. When you get to the last beans they are still going to jump, only you can't see it happen now.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't do it for that. I use a lid to keep bits from flying over the adjustment collar and into the threads.

Given that there is only 15-30g of beans in the thing, I'd imagine all of that is 'popcorning' it's way through and there wouldn't be much grind difference between start and finish.

i.e. If this was a big hopper, you might have 250-500g on top. That might make some difference. 30g probably doesn't.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

I am working on the N+1 angel pin mod - it may not fix it but will help with future research..


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I suppose an Angel pin might help....dunno....is it like for praying n stuff?


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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

I use a small silicone cup as per someone on HB forum.

Pros.

1. Reduced noise of popcorning

2. Reduced mess of little bits getting passed the lid.

Cons.

1. I have to remove an extra lid every time.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I completely forgot to do a mini review on the Niche Flow Control (NFC) Device I have been testing....well that's my name for it. I suppose part of my subconscious wanted to not say anything. It's sort of irritating to retailers who can't retail it and I plunge the knife in every time I post something new about it. 

However, I'm going to start knocking something up, perhaps even my new phone will arrive sooner, so I can test the Video and even the high speed video......Until then guys please don't buy the Eureka anti popcorning device (I think it's quite expensive) and you can perhaps stop coming up with inventive solutions until you see it.

Funny enough much of the credit goes to @dsc even though he doesn't realise it....sorry though no royalties.

Immediate disclosure: I got it free to test having asked martin to make it.....well I got 2 different devices, but preferred the simpler device. I won't be giving either device back as the cost of postage outweighs the cost of the device. Also I like it so won't give it back unless Martin drives 120m round trip to get it. ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

OK it's all done and up on my review site....enjoy.

Just remember you can't get it yet....soon though.


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

Thanks Dave, looks like it solve the popcorning issue - let's hope they also inform people who aren't on social media too


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Just watched the video, similar design to what's been floated for a while then, I was surprised to see just how controlled the flow was. Looks like a nice little addition, plenty of arguments to be had about whether it's necessary or not I'm sure but first impressions for me are simply that it seems like a nice 'maturing' of the mechanism.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Jacko112 said:


> Thanks Dave, looks like it solve the popcorning issue - let's hope they also inform people who aren't on social media too


 I'll make sure it's mentioned here as well as on my channel.



catpuccino said:


> Just watched the video, similar design to what's been floated for a while then, I was surprised to see just how controlled the flow was. Looks like a nice little addition, plenty of arguments to be had about whether it's necessary or not I'm sure but first impressions for me are simply that it seems like a nice 'maturing' of the mechanism.


 Small hole though....surprised me that beans even went in  however, it had the desired effect.

I intend to put a lot more of my content and old rubbish on YouTube as it seems to reach more people and faster. Hopefully it will have a positive effect.


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## RobbieTheTruth (Jun 4, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> OK it's all done and up on my review site....enjoy.
> 
> Just remember you can't get it yet....soon though.


 Looks like an absolutely perfect solution!

Great that Niche will let existing customers have it for the cost of postage too.

I think it's good of them not to hold this back until the release of a follow up grinder. Out of interest, do you know if they are planning to make any further models or will they just continue to make small modifications/improvements?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

It's just a shame it's not made from a more earth friendly material

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

joey24dirt said:


> It's just a shame it's not made from a more earth friendly material
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Like an old skateboard?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Like an old skateboard?


Hah nah, but I'm sure pressed stainless would be around the same cost, if not cheaper than more plastic.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Like an old skateboard?


they better not do that...


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

joey24dirt said:


> Hah nah, but I'm sure pressed stainless would be around the same cost, if not cheaper than more plastic.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I have a baked bean can you can have for postage if you need the materials!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> I have a baked bean can you can have for postage if you need the materials!




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

Really impressed with how well that works, hope they are available soon, I need this.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Hasi said:


> ashcroc said:
> 
> 
> > Like an old skateboard?
> ...


 They would never do that to you


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Please post links to the review and to the source of the mod.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

If they haven't got a large flat grinder in development they're wasting a huge opportunity.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Funny enough much of the credit goes to @dsc even though he doesn't realise it....sorry though no royalties.


The only thing I think of remotely related to this solution is my big push for people to try single bean dosing to eliminate the variable feed rate when single dosing. I've toyed with this disk + hole idea for a bit but never tried it as I assumed beans would eventually get stuck and block the hole. Maybe that's not an issue, maybe it might happen with certain beans.

Anyways, I'm still a believer that conical burrs are designed to be fully loaded for proper grinding. Single bean dosing does allow you to go much finer with the grind setting and there's potential to reach higher EY, but taste wise I think a standard whole dose drop is better.

Saying that, I'll 3d print myself a small disk and try it out. I'm sure you can make one from a yoghurt pot as well if you haven't got a 3d printer handy.

T.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dsc said:


> The only thing I think of remotely related to this solution is my big push for people to try single bean dosing to eliminate the variable feed rate when single dosing. I've toyed with this disk + hole idea for a bit but never tried it as I assumed beans would eventually get stuck and block the hole. Maybe that's not an issue, maybe it might happen with certain beans.
> 
> Anyways, I'm still a believer that conical burrs are designed to be fully loaded for proper grinding. Single bean dosing does allow you to go much finer with the grind setting and there's potential to reach higher EY, but taste wise I think a standard whole dose drop is better.
> T.


 I was one of those few who participated in your experiment and I quietly continued doing it with the grinder locked on and feeding 3 beans at a time, then 4 etc... trying the resulting coffee each time. I did that for a week or more with all my coffees (a real ball ache doing it with the Niche). I found how much finer I needed to go with the grind setting to maintain the same fineness of grind, hopefully minimising the effect of the coarsening grind with bean load. I expected other benefits as well. I didn't say anything at the time because interest in that experiment seemed to die away pretty rapidly and there was no follow on discussion? I think those of us who are experienced are able to experiment effectively (if we want to) to the possible benefit of all.

Taste wise is tricky and down to peoples personal perception. It is different and I'll leave people to decide what's different about it having had coffee ground this way for ages now. Perhaps it will suit some coffees better than others...I personally have not found that but I have not tested all coffees. When you test a set of 63mm conical burrs running at the 300-400 rpm mark, or better still a Niche with a regulated bean feed, I think people will be interested in your results, I'll certainly look out for them.

People won't be forced to use it.....nothing about the grinder is different and they can leave it fitted or remove it, so there are no downsides.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Is it a flat disc with a hole in it or is it a little sloped on one side? Something like this would be good for the Ceado too.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

This should improve on the variation of grind that I experienced when I had the niche and it is great to see that they are addressing this issue in the grinder especially as everyone said this was not a problem at all.

funny how things change hey?


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

looks like screwed on which will make it a pain to quick clean. Well done


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Will they give it to people who have second-hand Niche's too for free? How are they going to gauge whether you have one or not? @DavecUK


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I cant't even tell the difference, so if they do they do. But I am no Old Pro.


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Hasi said:


> looks like screwed on which will make it a pain to quick clean. Well done


 Yeah bit of a shame you won't just be able to pop the top burr our as quickly as before. I switch between espresso and v60 grinds almost on a daily basis, so I tend to do this a little more often than some others might (sure I could purge with a few beans, but it's so quick to just unscrew and brush out).

I wonder if it could have worked as a push-fit on top of the current screw head.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

catpuccino said:


> Yeah bit of a shame you won't just be able to pop the top burr our as quickly as before. I switch between espresso and v60 grinds almost on a daily basis, so I tend to do this a little more often than some others might (sure I could purge with a few beans, but it's so quick to just unscrew and brush out).
> I wonder if it could have worked as a push-fit on top of the current screw head.


we'll see, maybe this is where the expensive tooling comes into play. Wouldn't see the benefit of an injection moulded flat disc


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Hasi said:


> we'll see, maybe this is where the expensive tooling comes into play. Wouldn't see the benefit of an injection moulded flat disc


 can't be too expensive - soft tooling (aluminium) could be bought for a pittance and still be good for 10,000+ shots... Not sure they've sold that many yet. Could also thermoform the thing.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Cooffe said:


> can't be too expensive - soft tooling (aluminium) could be bought for a pittance and still be good for 10,000+ shots... Not sure they've sold that many yet. Could also thermoform the thing.


haha I know, depending on how many cavities and stuff as well. Dave mentioned thousands of bobs that seemingly went into tooling, so I was wondering what would justify the expenditure.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Hasi said:


> Cooffe said:
> 
> 
> > can't be too expensive - soft tooling (aluminium) could be bought for a pittance and still be good for 10,000+ shots... Not sure they've sold that many yet. Could also thermoform the thing.
> ...


 Nah. Aluminium tooling, as long as it has a low clamp pressure (guess this will as itll probably be made of PP instead of PA to save cost.. making it out of nylon would be nice though) then it will likely come in under £10k with set-up cost. Even less if it's made in China.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Love this! Real K.I.S.S. engineering. Look forward to hearing from Niche so I can try it out.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Rob666 said:


> Love this! Real K.I.S.S. engineering. Look forward to hearing from Niche so I can try it out.


 I had to look that up but I agree!


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

lake_m said:


> I had to look that up but I agree!


 Haha simplicity is the best policy normally! Also normally the cheapest...


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Cooffe said:


> Haha simplicity is the best policy normally! Also normally the cheapest...


this only holds true if all other aspects are taken proper care of in the same manner:
simple to understand, simple to use, simple to maintain, simple to dispose of - to name a few. As long as this disc is bolted on together with the burr, the solution ain't thought trough properly.
Would be much better to have aforementioned over-cap to quickly brush off burrs as outlined in user manual (with the added benefit of keeping nut and thread clean).
However, I understand this as a pretty rough functional mock up so let's see what final add-on will look like.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

coffeechap said:


> This should improve on the variation of grind that I experienced when I had the niche and it is great to see that they are addressing this issue in the grinder especially as everyone said this was not a problem at all.
> 
> funny how things change hey?


 It's always better to sell to people that which they want to buy, than what you have to sell them. ?

Hence, if popcorning itself bothers the buyers, include a popcorn prevention device. (Out of sight, out of mind.)

Am I the only one not yet convinced that this device can provide the same 100% solution for the grind output? I'd bet the weight of a full hopper of beans can counter the variation you refer to far better than a lid suspended atop the burrs... no matter how close it sits, it is a flat disc & beans will fall differently than they would if they had a pound of beans on top of them, I'd guess? I'll be curious to compare flavour in the cup with & without the disc.

Niche is making a smart business decision. Even if the impact on grind is not discernible in the cup, the popcorning issue is resolved and counters all the "it's the perfect grinder except for the popcorning".

(But we coffee nuts are nit-pickers, if not perfectionists. ?If that issue is resolved, we'll need something else to pick at, right???)


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Slowpress said:


> It's always better to sell to people that which they want to buy, than what you have to sell them. ?
> 
> Hence, if popcorning itself bothers the buyers, include a popcorn prevention device. (Out of sight, out of mind.)
> 
> ...


 The whole concept isn't to stop popcorning, which isn't an issue in itself (aside from little bits possibly making a mess), but to feed the beans through one at a time, or at least to feed them through in such a way that the crushing of multiple beans at the same spot is significantly reduced. The disc has the effect of course of stopping popcorning which is correlated with an inconsistent grind but not directly related (feeding one bean through at a time will still result in popcorning but you'll get a tighter grind distribution).

Not really sure what you mean by 100% solution? The disc might not feed the beans in at a different spot and let them get ground down enough before another one comes in and starts building up behind it but it should help a lot. Logically it should take one full revolution before the beans start building up. They'd fall in differently but not necessarily in a way that is worse. Running with a hopper is not something I'd do now, and running with a weight on the beans carries its own complications. Would a full hopper be "far better"? Hopefully not. I guess we'll have to wait and see but initial tests sound good

Having used a Pharos for two years (which has the same issues as all other grinders that aren't auger fed) I'm used to dealing with the grind output with a stir or shake which happens as part of transferring from the catch cup into something suitable for dosing the PF with. The necessity to stir the grinds from the Niche to get them mixed isn't a 'problem' but if the grind quality can be improved with such a simple device why not go for it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

From what I understand it's got a different purpose to preventing popcorning with a weight (effectively making the grind finer). It feeds the beans through more gradually, so there are less beans in the burrs at any one time, effectively making the grind at that setting coarser, until you set the burrs closer together to compensate.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Slowpress said:


> It's always better to sell to people that which they want to buy, than what you have to sell them. ?
> 
> Hence, if popcorning itself bothers the buyers, include a popcorn prevention device. (Out of sight, out of mind.)
> 
> ...


 What exactly do you want from a £500 grinder? Obviously perfection......


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of the cup you get with the niche to help alleviated the popcorned grounds? Grind into that, give it a shake and boom... your uneven grind is now mixed into a non-issue.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

joey24dirt said:


> Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the idea of the cup you get with the niche to help alleviated the popcorned grounds? Grind into that, give it a shake and boom... your uneven grind is now mixed into a non-issue.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 How can the cup affect the grinds? Why do you say they are uneven, what's the datum for 'even', what is normal tolerance, what is "uneven"?

The cup, or any cup/milk jug/WDT/mixing tool, can only take the grinds you have & then mix them up & help you distribute grinds in the basket (perhaps the two meanings of "distribution" we are using here are causing confusion?). It can't change your 'grind size distribution' (happens before the grinds fall into the cup).


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

MWJB said:


> How can the cup affect the grinds? Why do you say they are uneven, what's the datum for 'even', what is normal tolerance, what is "uneven"?
> The cup, or any cup/milk jug/WDT/mixing tool, can only take the grinds you have & then mix them up & help you distribute grinds in the basket (perhaps the two meanings of "distribution" we are using here are causing confusion?). It can't change your 'grind size distribution' (happens before the grinds fall into the cup).


Isn't this whole popcorning thing what leads to the grind being uneven?! Have I missed something?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

This disc solution sits probably somewhere between single-bean-at-a-time dosing and full dose dump dosing. It should allow to grind finer and should make post grind mixing less necessary. As mentioned several times before there's a very easy test to check how consistent the grind is, take three doses, three empty cups and dump the first dose in with the disc installed. Run the grinder for a few seconds to grind 1/3rd of the dose, collect in cup 1, then run for a few more seconds, collect in cup 2, then the last third into cup 3. Repeat with dose 2 and 3 until you have three full cups, 1st one being a collection of the first 1/3rds from all doses, 2nd one being a collection of the second 1/3rds from all doses and 3rd one being a collection of the third 1/3rds from all doses. Pull shots with all three doses, if all pull the same, then you have a consistent grinder.

T.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

People are trying to weigh farts......


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can you see coffee shops grinding a bean at a time in pursuit of nirvana? Nirvana is a state of mind, it does not exist. The point of making coffee is to produce or reproduce a drink.....until the mad scientists take over, then it becomes a scientific challenge.....who has taste buds good enough to detect these differences anyway. So, you produce the perfect grind then find the temp of the shot your perfect pour was o.005 degree lower than this attempt.....thats all the shot out of the window! God created on demand grinders for a reason.....


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Can you see coffee shops grinding a bean at a time in pursuit of nirvana? Nirvana is a state of mind, it does not exist. The point of making coffee is to produce or reproduce a drink.....until the mad scientists take over, then it becomes a scientific challenge.....who has taste buds good enough to detect these differences anyway. So, you produce the perfect grind then find the temp of the shot your perfect pour was o.005 degree lower than this attempt.....thats all the shot out of the window! God created on demand grinders for a reason.....


I'll have drank my coffee by the time the beans feed through the new disc thing for the niche. Still fascinated by the conversation though.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

joey24dirt said:


> Isn't this whole popcorning thing what leads to the grind being uneven?! Have I missed something?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Maybe it makes it a tiny bit less even than not popcorning (no one's measured it yet), but it's a single dosed, conical grinder designed to run with no weight over the beans. Any such grinder will still have the same issue. If you wanted a hopper fed grinder you wouldn't buy a Niche.

Let's say the last few beans have a little different grind characteristic than the rest of the dose, a bean weighs about 0.18g, 100 of them make up a typical dose...how much difference can the last few make, given their grind will still overlap with the rest.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

joey24dirt said:


> I'll have drank my coffee by the time the beans feed through the new disc thing for the niche. Still fascinated by the conversation though.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 It doesn't slow things down significantly.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

My Clima Pro, with less than 125 gm or so of means in the hopper, produces a very uneven grind that pours completely out of sync with when there is a greater weight, so, what approach do you think I take then?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Maybe it makes it a tiny bit less even than not popcorning (no one's measured it yet), but it's a single dosed, conical grinder designed to run with no weight over the beans. Any such grinder will still have the same issue. If you wanted a hopper fed grinder you wouldn't buy a Niche.
> Let's say the last few beans have a little different grind characteristic than the rest of the dose, a bean weighs about ).18g, 100 of them make up a tyipcal dose...how much difference can the last few make, given their grind will still overlap with the rest.


Exactly my point. If the popcorning isn't affecting the grind size that much, then surely a shake in the supplied cup, or a stir with a distributor whisk would be enough to mix up those last little bits that may not be the same. Better to do that than produce a load of extra plastic discs that seemingly serve very little purpose.

Just want to make it clear, I'm not picking a fight with anyone, just throwing in my view on the thing in question 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

joey24dirt said:


> Exactly my point. If the popcorning isn't affecting the grind size that much, then surely a shake in the supplied cup, or a stir with a distributor whisk would be enough to mix up those last little bits that may not be the same. Better to do that than produce a load of extra plastic discs that seemingly serve very little purpose.
> 
> Just want to make it clear, I'm not picking a fight with anyone, just throwing in my view on the thing in question
> 
> ...


 You still have bits of ground coffee that fly out of the throat of the grinder & gather under the lid around the rim. Hopefully this will help with that.

The disc does reportedly affect the grind, because at no point do you have the same mass of beans in the burrs at any one time as you would with no disc (popcorning or not).

Most grinders/household appliances/every day items are made with plastics.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

Just to be clear, and with the hope I did not inadvertently offend anyone: I was joking/teasing for the most part in my earlier post... tongue in cheek stuff... I simply cannot believe how much of an issue this is for some. ?‍♀ But it's perfectly fine by me if the flying beans (or grind output) are an issue or a bother for some, and if they want a work-around, that's fine, too. For some reason, it makes me laugh, but not to be offensive at all... just tickles my funny bone. Sorry! ???

It bothers me not one bit to have a stray bean fly up & back down; hasn't affected me in any way at all, so it surprises me that it has created problems for others. But that's just me. ?‍♀ If the grind output isn't satisfactory in the cup for the user/drinker, then a Niche may not be the right grinder choice for that user/drinker. I do sometimes use a different grinder for certain shots, but on the whole, the Niche does what most of us want at a price we can manage, and admirably so. I doubt I'll ever have a Monolith or an EK on my salary.?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

At some point you'll have trouble getting a good pour and then you'll understand this obsession with grind distribution.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

sure 'nuff, as long as it truly is the grinder that's to blame for the bad pour!??


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Maybe it makes it a tiny bit less even than not popcorning (no one's measured it yet), but it's a single dosed, conical grinder designed to run with no weight over the beans. Any such grinder will still have the same issue. If you wanted a hopper fed grinder you wouldn't buy a Niche.
> 
> Let's say the last few beans have a little different grind characteristic than the rest of the dose, a bean weighs about 0.18g, 100 of them make up a typical dose...how much difference can the last few make, given their grind will still overlap with the rest.


 But it is not a marginal effect, please like I said right from day one with this grinder, take the first 5 grams of three doses, then the second 5 grams from three doses, then the third three grams from three doses, with the grinder set at espresso settings and see what the difference in time of those shots is. That WILL show you the variance in the grind, just do the test then please tell me there is no difference.

this device as DSC says will put it somewhere nearer to single bean feed, which is a good thing. So hrs off to niche for addressing one of the pitfalls of this grinder.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> My Clima Pro, with less than 125 gm or so of means in the hopper, produces a very uneven grind that pours completely out of sync with when there is a greater weight, so, what approach do you think I take then?


 Simple but more beans in the hopper and use it as designed or use a tube and weight.


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

For those with the equipment...

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3985928

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/dye00g/3d_printable_niche_zero_flow_control_disk/


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> But it is not a marginal effect, please like I said right from day one with this grinder, take the first 5 grams of three doses, then the second 5 grams from three doses, then the third three grams from three doses, with the grinder set at espresso settings and see what the difference in time of those shots is. That WILL show you the variance in the grind, just do the test then please tell me there is no difference.
> 
> this device as DSC says will put it somewhere nearer to single bean feed, which is a good thing. So hrs off to niche for addressing one of the pitfalls of this grinder.


 Have you performed this test with any other grinders to compare? Also out of curiosity while I don't doubt your test (I don't know your results but I assume the times were significantly different) did you take it a step further and assess EY with a stirred single dose and a dose made up of the thirds at the appropriate grind setting for a good shot for that collection of thirds and/or did you compare quality in the cup after doing that? It would be interesting if it has a measurable effect on EY or leads to significant improvements in the cup to separate doses and pull good shots with them vs getting a good shot with the full range of particle sizes when just plain single dosing. *good shot as in a good looking pour in a reasonable time to the same yield.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

coffeechap said:


> But it is not a marginal effect, please like I said right from day one with this grinder, take the first 5 grams of three doses, then the second 5 grams from three doses, then the third three grams from three doses, with the grinder set at espresso settings and see what the difference in time of those shots is. That WILL show you the variance in the grind, just do the test then please tell me there is no difference.
> 
> this device as DSC says will put it somewhere nearer to single bean feed, which is a good thing. So hrs off to niche for addressing one of the pitfalls of this grinder.


 Wait... there's pitfalls on the Niche?! What planet are you living on! There's nothing bad to say about it!

(excusing the sarcasm) looking forward to the solution and seeing how it affects grind quality, but as @dfk41 says I think we may be weighing a fart. The niche is already good enough for the large populous of people that have it, and those that it wasn't good enough for have sold it on or use other grinders. Looking forward to seeing how this pans out.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> From what I understand it's got a different purpose to preventing popcorning with a weight (effectively making the grind finer). It feeds the beans through more gradually, so there are less beans in the burrs at any one time, effectively making the grind at that setting coarser, until you set the burrs closer together to compensate.


 Yes. Entirely the opposite of conventional grinders where hopper off weighing in usually requires a finer setting than when the hopper is on and it's used in the normal way.

 Then some pundits reckon that the best taste is with hopper on because of the particle size distribution it produces - ie the coarser grind setting that is then needed is best.

Coffeechap has posted the reasoning for this. I used a weight and it's not down to popcorning it's down to having to force grinds out of the grind chamber - something that Niche is designed to completely avoid.

Hope there is space when the disc is fitted for elephant species beans to grind correctly. Niche takes noticeably longer to grind those.

John

-


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> But it is not a marginal effect, please like I said right from day one with this grinder, take the first 5 grams of three doses, then the second 5 grams from three doses, then the third three grams from three doses, with the grinder set at espresso settings and see what the difference in time of those shots is. That WILL show you the variance in the grind, just do the test then please tell me there is no difference.
> 
> this device as DSC says will put it somewhere nearer to single bean feed, which is a good thing. So hrs off to niche for addressing one of the pitfalls of this grinder.


 But what is the grind distribution in units that we can understand & how is this different from any other single dosed conical? Why would you top & tail the doses like that in day to day use, is this something you have tried with other single dosed conicals?

If 5 or 10g of beans makes such a difference (we still don't know what that difference actually is), what happens if you put another 5-10g in the hopper (it takes at least 40g)?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

@dfk41 Coffee shops hardly ever single dose (unless it's an EK for example), they just run their grinders as intended ie. with a full hopper. Years ago I think Mazzer used to put warnings on their grinders to never run them without a full hopper and everyone laughed at them (suprisingly they do know a thing or two about grinders).

I'm not saying that single dosing doesn't work, but you need to compensate for the lack of beans in the burr chamber by thigtening the grind setting vs. full hopper setting. The reason here is simple, towards the end of a single dose, the grind goes coarser than at the start, it's no longer the same throughout as it is with a full hopper. Tightening means the first part of the dose comes out way too fine, but the "back end" comes out coarser, so overall the average is just right, ASSUMING you mix it well before transfering to the basket (otherwise you get uneven flow through the puck as your puck is not even size-wise). This is why you can use single dosing, but whether it produces the same result in the cup vs a full hopper as up to you to decide.

Single-bean-dosing is the far extreme, I came up with it just as a laugh to eliminate the effects of a partially loaded burr chamber. It also allows one to go super fine with the grind setting, which in the end results in a high EY, but taste wise the shots aren't that great.

You can repeat my 3rds test on any grinder, assuming you can run it slow enough to grind 1/3rd of a dose at a time (not doable say on an EK).@Rob1 There's no way to compare the three resulting shots re EY as the idea is that you grind each dose at the same setting, so you'd be checking EY on gushers effectively. Using a standard drop-the-whole-dose single dosing method this experiment gives you three cups where the first one runs fairly normally, the second runs way too fast and the last is a gusher. This is because the first cup contains the first 1/3rd of all three doses, so this is the first few grams which are ground at the beginning of each dose grind, this is the finest stuff, so flow through the puck is fairly normal. The second cup holds the middle bit of each dose, this is where the burr chamber empties and grind goes coarser, which is why the shot pulls faster. The last cup holds the last few grams from each dose, this is the coarsest stuff, ground when the burr chamber is almost empty, which is why the shot is a gusher. If you repeat this experiment with a full hopper, each cup will pull the same way as the grind is the same size regardles when you grabbed it.

Btw, if you search HB forums you'll probably find the above method described by myself years ago and perhaps 2-3 replies to the thread asking people to try this (don't think anyone did in the end). Whenever I mention this to any coffee professionals or people who've been in the coffee industry for ages, they just look at me like I'm mad yet no one wants to try it out and that really p*sses me off. It's uber simple to do and is a big eye opener imho.

T.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Not saying your not correct, but how is it that the weight of beans above the beans actually in the grind mechanism affects them? Just interested.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

-Mac said:


> Not saying your not correct, but how is it that the weight of beans above the beans actually in the grind mechanism affects them? Just interested.


I'm not 100% sure but I think it has more to do with how a full burr chamber forces bean fragments down the right cut outs in the burr. It is also possible that with a more tightly packed burr chamber more fines are produced but on the other hand it might simply produce an overall finer grind with a more consistent grinding action (less random bean movements, cuts, shard like fragments etc. which might happen when single dosing).

Apart from burr manufacturers I don't think anyone really knows.

T.


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## Johey (Oct 12, 2019)

-Mac said:


> Not saying your not correct, but how is it that the weight of beans above the beans actually in the grind mechanism affects them? Just interested.


 That's indeed a very good question. Although I already mentioned that I am still far from being able to taste the difference (still a newbie to "proper" coffee making & drinking) as an engineer I am now interested in this topic. I thought the grind size is only defined by the geometry of the burrs (and their alignment)? I don't see a real explanation for the change of the grind size...


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Johey said:


> That's indeed a very good question. Although I already mentioned that I am still far from being able to taste the difference (still a newbie to "proper" coffee making & drinking) as an engineer I am now interested in this topic. I thought the grind size is only defined by the geometry of the burrs (and their alignment)? I don't see a real explanation for the change of the grind size...


Some insights on this forum. One post here:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/25626-a-not-so-quick-experiment-single-dosed-grinders/


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dsc said:


> Apart from burr manufacturers I don't think anyone really knows.


 At Host I had a long chat with Tino and the owner of their Burr manufacturer about this and a few other grinder things (the 3 different coatings they do etc..). Ceado now have some large flat single dosers and the approach being taken is interesting. I think they both had a pretty good handle on why it happens and the solution for Ceado is to control flow, as well as burr speed.

The coatings covered Titanium Nitride (gold e.g. Mythos, Titanium Aluminium Nitride (e.g. red speed) and Aluminium Titanium Nitride (Black and a particular interest area of mine), plus why Burrs need running in. Nothing specifically to do with grind size/quality.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Johey said:


> That's indeed a very good question. Although I already mentioned that I am still far from being able to taste the difference (still a newbie to "proper" coffee making & drinking) as an engineer I am now interested in this topic. I thought the grind size is only defined by the geometry of the burrs (and their alignment)? I don't see a real explanation for the change of the grind size...


 Grind size (average) is determined by burr gap. This what we adjust when setting a grinder.

The characteristics of the grind size distribution (proportions & range of particles smaller & larger than the average) is somewhat determined by burr type.

If the last few beans hop about a lot with less interference from other beans/particles in the burrs, they can grind up effectively coarser than the rest of the dose, at that burr gap. The early part of the dose may be ground more finely by pressure from above, forcing beans against the burrs and by fragments of beans smashing together, further enhancing the finer fraction.

Regulate the flow of beans so that they all grind as per the last few beans in a dose and you have the possibility of this whole dose being an overall coarser grind than a typical, unrestricted single dose - at the same burr gap. So you then make the burr gap smaller to normalise the average grind size.

As far as taste goes, if you set 2 grinders, or the same grinder that is capable of 2 distribution characteristics, so that they make the best tasting drink in each scenario, then you have 2 good tasting drinks, one might be a little weaker/stronger than the other at the same brew ratio.

Unfortunately, there are precious few example of people who have shown a correlation between different distributions/grind sizes from the same grinder at the same burr gap and actual particle distributions. Most observations are along the lines of, 'I know there is a wolf in the woods, because I saw a squirrel & it was clearly nervous'  I'm not saying it doesn't/can't happen (I have no reason to believe it cannot, but how significant is it?), just that for all the certain knowledge, no one seems to be able to describe the tangible effect on distribution and how/whether it is correctable.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> At Host I had a long chat with Tino and the owner of their Burr manufacturer about this and a few other grinder things (the 3 different coatings they do etc..). Ceado now have some large flat single dosers and the approach being taken is interesting. I think they both had a pretty good handle on why it happens and the solution for Ceado is to control flow, as well as burr speed.
> The coatings covered Titanium Nitride (gold e.g. Mythos, Titanium Aluminium Nitride (e.g. red speed) and Aluminium Titanium Nitride (Black and a particular interest area of mine), plus why Burrs need running in. Nothing specifically to do with grind size/quality.


What was their explanation? Flats are different as they are not gravity fed, at least not the same way as conics, so I'd expect different behaviour from them.

T.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dsc said:


> What was their explanation? Flats are different as they are not gravity fed, at least not the same way as conics, so I'd expect different behaviour from them.


 Their explanation was confidential between owners of companies that work together...It's something I specifically wouldn't feel happy to discuss further.

The conversation about Burr coatings and running in burrs (seasoning) was more open as I initiated that with my reasons, and they took me round the back and showed me what they were doing with Aluminium Titainum Nitride...a story for a different thread.

We also had a chat about Alignment and different methods, I noticed an interesting alignment system when they took the front off their most expensive grinder...I suggested how I thought it worked and he confirmed it. It was of interest because I have been thinking about a similar type of system for almost a year...my idea is a little simpler to implement (and use) than Ceados but "could" be almost as difficult to align the burrs....the major problem even if you have a system to do it.

All of it of course to chase the holy grail of better quality grinding, reduced heat and increased longevity. Plus chasing the zeitgeist, because single dosing in the commercial environment doesn't really make sense...? At the Mahlkoneig Stand they concentrated on speed and dose consistency with good quality, La Marzocco on sit back and press a button..


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dsc said:


> This disc solution sits probably somewhere between single-bean-at-a-time dosing and full dose dump dosing. It should allow to grind finer and should make post grind mixing less necessary. As mentioned several times before there's a very easy test to check how consistent the grind is, take three doses, three empty cups and dump the first dose in with the disc installed. Run the grinder for a few seconds to grind 1/3rd of the dose, collect in cup 1, then run for a few more seconds, collect in cup 2, then the last third into cup 3. Repeat with dose 2 and 3 until you have three full cups, 1st one being a collection of the first 1/3rds from all doses, 2nd one being a collection of the second 1/3rds from all doses and 3rd one being a collection of the third 1/3rds from all doses. Pull shots with all three doses, if all pull the same, then you have a consistent grinder.


 I didn't notice this post, admittedly I had stopped following the thread for a while. When testing I could see the power was constant, but I didn't just rely on that, I confirmed my belief that this should reduce the distribution width caused by changing weight /*amount* of beans

So weeks ago I tried something similar...as you can appreciate 3rds is tricky and it's also more time consuming but I did halves which are as significant when judging whether the NFC Disk was working. I didn't put the results in the mini write up on the review site because it was a bit geeky and I don't know how much value the normal reader would have got.

*Method*

17g coffee. I split the grind output between 2 containers and ground for 8.5 seconds before swapping (this might vary a tad depending on mains voltage and speed of the Niche), then swapped the grind cup for a small plastic tray and ground the remaining half, the grinder was constantly running and not stopped for the test. I repeated this so I had 2 splits, the first and second half of each grind.

This gave equal doses of approximately 17g (within 0.3 of a gram). I repeated this process 4 times to have 4 tests. Rather than post an average which can be misleading. I will post 1 set of results, *the rest were very similar, to within a second or within 1g of extracted espresso weight.* It's tricky to get the extracted espresso weight right on the button, as my scales have a slight delay.

33.4 coffee out, shot timer 26.8s..........1st half (17g coffee)
32.6g coffee out shot timer 27.4s..........2nd half (17g coffee)

17g coffee. 2 grinds 50/50 split.

Machine used Minima, constant pressure set to 9 bar....no profiling used, extraction temperature 93C

The taste of the coffee was the same (to me) in each case. People are welcome to try this and confirm what I found. I'm not going to bother with 3rds because it's super tricky and 50/50 splits do show if there is a significant difference and would have seen much more variance. So the device is working as it should. In fact it would be tricky on other grinders, simply because of retained grinds, fortunately that's not really a problem with the Niche.

When I do reviewing and testing I actually do quite a lot more testing that I ever bother publishing e.g. the temperature testing on dual boiler machines and PID setup is very time consuming and boring. It's mainly because the audience it's aimed at usually doesn't have much experience or interest in the nitty gritty,


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## jonners (Apr 26, 2013)

I wonder if there would be any advantage to having more than one hole in the disc? Faster grind?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

jonners said:


> I wonder if there would be any advantage to having more than one hole in the disc? Faster grind?


 It doesn't really take any longer than no disc, I'm sure I mentioned that in the review. What it might well do, is reverse the positive effects?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I didn't notice this post, admittedly I had stopped following the thread for a while. When testing I could see the power was constant, but I didn't just rely on that, I confirmed my belief that this should reduce the distribution width caused by changing weight /*amount* of beans
> 
> So weeks ago I tried something similar...as you can appreciate 3rds is tricky and it's also more time consuming but I did halves which are as significant when judging whether the NFC Disk was working. I didn't put the results in the mini write up on the review site because it was a bit geeky and I don't know how much value the normal reader would have got.
> 
> ...


 Where are the control results without the disc? Just to make that more difficult I don't stir for the simple reason it gives a larger variation in output with a fixed 30 sec shot time. All I do is a rather gentle side to side minor shake to part disrupt some very slight static clumps that tend to come out at the end of a grind followed by a rapid invert and at times some careful grooming.

What you seem to have done above is "proved" what you believe when there may or may not be a problem in the first place.

Anyway something that stops bits getting past the lid is useful. The rest afraid i am inclined to believe it's bunkum without a clear demonstration that 1/2/s 1/3s etc or what ever cause changes without the disc. i also feel that fixed shot times are more meaningful.

John

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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

ajohn said:


> Where are the control results without the disc? Just to make that more difficult I don't stir for the simple reason it gives a larger variation in output with a fixed 30 sec shot time. All I do is a rather gentle side to side minor shake to part disrupt some very slight static clumps that tend to come out at the end of a grind followed by a rapid invert and at times some careful grooming.
> 
> What you seem to have done above is "proved" what you believe when there may or may not be a problem in the first place.
> 
> ...


 Just do the test yourself and you'll see.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Where are the control results without the disc? Just to make that more difficult I don't stir for the simple reason it gives a larger variation in output with a fixed 30 sec shot time. All I do is a rather gentle side to side minor shake to part disrupt some very slight static clumps that tend to come out at the end of a grind followed by a rapid invert and at times some careful grooming.
> 
> What you seem to have done above is "proved" what you believe when there may or may not be a problem in the first place.
> 
> ...


 John if you remember I said that when feeding 3 beans at a time I had to go 4 marks finer. So there is a significant difference as the amount of beans diminishes (as in all grinders, except for possibly some special flat burr ones that don't do this when single dosed). I of course did controls without the disc. Clearly above shows a consistent grinder with the disk in terms of it's performance in that particular test.

I did controls: for example with exactly the same grind setting as the test above and no NFC disk, results were typically:



54s shot time 32g output (17.10g coffee 1st splits added together)


33s shot time 32g output (16.84g coffe 2nd splits added together)


Quite a clear difference...obviously the 2nd splits were 33s because there was still some gradation in the grind at the 8g point to an unknown level below 8g? Certainly after 8g, the variance is much less, which would be in line with the reasoning why this happens.

I don't really see why fixed shot times as opposed to fixed volumes would carry more meaning, in fact puck perfusion has an impact on flow rate, so much so that if you select too short a shot time, it might distort results. So I chose to use a consistent output in g.

Anyone (and you) with a Niche can do these tests and when they get the NFC disk try the tests with those. I've used enough coffee doing them and I'm happy about what's happening and that it helps a great deal...for sure timings might differ a bit with different coffees, but the effects should be the same. I think is this isn't sufficient, then people will have to do their own tests. You need approximately 350g of the same coffee to do a test run of 4 tests with and 4 test runs without the disk (and allow for any mistakes, plus normal 18g shots with no splits).

P.S. You made a good and correct point about controls though 

P.P.S. I should have added in the first *test with the disk and that coffee I was already dialled in for espresso at around 28s for 32 gram just using the grinder normally*, so doing the splits and adding those together really gave a similar result to just tipping 18g in and letting the disk do it's thing. Hence my conclusion that it's nice and consistent and in line with a triple bean feed in groups on a constantly running grinder.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

But what are the differences in the cup? Presumably greater clarity with the disc than without?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> But what are the differences in the cup? Presumably greater clarity with the disc than without?


 Different mouthfeel for sure and taste for sure but I would rather people come to their own conclusions. You can get a similar effect by throwing the beans in 3s until all 17 or 18g have gone in and then pull a shot.....I did that for ages. With the grinder used normally and dialled in for espresso, go about 4 marks finer and then try it....otherwise you will get a gusher.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Different mouthfeel for sure and taste for sure but I would rather people come to their own conclusions. You can get a similar effect by throwing the beans in 3s until all 17 or 18g have gone in and then pull a shot.....I did that for ages. With the grinder used normally and dialled in for espresso, go about 4 marks finer and then try it....otherwise you will get a gusher.


Are you finding a need to still stir the grounds with a chopstick or is the consistency throughout the grind good enough not to need that step.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> DavecUK said:
> 
> 
> > Different mouthfeel for sure and taste for sure but I would rather people come to their own conclusions. You can get a similar effect by throwing the beans in 3s until all 17 or 18g have gone in and then pull a shot.....I did that for ages. With the grinder used normally and dialled in for espresso, go about 4 marks finer and then try it....otherwise you will get a gusher.
> ...


 I purposely did not stir when testing with the disc and there is no need to. I am back to stirring (more an edge scrape) as I always found it aids clean release from the grind cup....the main reason I did it.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Only did a quick try - loading beans 3 at a time - what a balls ache, admire your patience. Did it 4 marks finer but got a real gusher on the Vesuvius. Might be because I was opening / closing lid not running it continuous or just different for different beans or the profile I was using (most probable) as it had a long preinfusion lever style one.

Will wait until the disk becomes available to try the taste and in the meantime I'll carry on stirring the grinds


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I often find genuflecting half a dozen times pre putting the beans in helps.....


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> Only did a quick try - loading beans 3 at a time - what a balls ache, admire your patience. Did it 4 marks finer but got a real gusher on the Vesuvius. Might be because I was opening / closing lid not running it continuous or just different for different beans or the profile I was using (most probable) as it had a long preinfusion lever style one.
> 
> Will wait until the disk becomes available to try the taste and in the meantime I'll carry on stirring the grinds


 Ah I was talking about a normal pump machine, if you are pressure profiling then you might have to go 6 or 8 finer. It also depends a little on the bean and where you were dialled in initially. Rest assured you can just need to go finer and finer and you will get there. it is a huge ball ache to test properly and the 3 bean method is a real PITA with the beans all leaping about. Think how I felt doing it for days with every shot for 3 coffees!! Still that was almost a year ago now....  So yeah, you do need to throw the beans into a constantly running grinder to simulate it and they need to go in at a steady rate you match each time. I also tried with a tube (shh), I had the beans in a small funnel and let them down a tube at a trickle....I'm a sad bastard I know). For that you need a cheap set of 5 or 6 funnels different sizes, select the one that matches your tubing which for me was about 12Cm ID I think, it was a bit of old soft clear poly tube I had lying about that looked the right sort of size. Fit to bottom of funnel, cut to length (about 6 inch)...I found it could be shoved under the mostly closed lid and you tip your dose into the funnel. Angling the tube gives a trickle of beans.

The little Niche always seems to have to "over prove" itself, needs to be subject to a greater level of scrutiny because of what it is (a grinder for the home)...although I'm very happy with it and it's performance with the disc.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I await the disc but things seem to have changed in respect to Niche. For instance comments made where I can say I found this too.

Have to stir to dispel static. Initially I found no static was produced later static caused grinds to stick the the can. Silly me I banged the grind cup onto the tamping mat to knock them off. Silly me as I have ground into a can before and then stopped doing it and doing this made things worse. Later no more static that matters, just very loose clumps late in a grind. A minor shake breaks them up.

More recently stirring with a dissecting needle. And other things. A feeling that this just removes air and allows the grinds to settle. That is clearly visible in the can when this is done. Another way of looking at this is that it tends to even out compaction in the grinds.

Now suddenly things have moved on to the disc evening out grinds distribution. I found that it clearly produced too many fines for a while but that was only really apparent after I reduced my usual dose - essentially Niche grinds take up more space - reduced by stirring.

Then comes popcorning. Blamed for taste changes usually when flat burr grinders are used for weighing in. While it probably does have a tiny effect it not by any means the main one which results in normal use of the grinder needing a *coarser *setting than when used for weighing in. This coarser setting is reckoned to provide a better taste as the particle distribution is different. It's very easy to stop popcorning - just add a weight over the beans as people do when they use tube hoppers. The coarser settings are needed because in normal use the grind chamber is packed with grinds and the grinds are more compacted when they actually come out of the grinder - does vary a bit by make but they all do this.

So along comes a mod that needs and even finer grinder setting for weighing in. LOL ????? It's up to users to decide if the results are good or bad. All I object to is popcorning comments as it doesn't do what people seem to think it does to any significant level. Actually on Niche I have used some beans that need to prebreak a bit before they are likely to get into the burrs. Maragogypes.

I doubt if I will be grinding 4 marks finer when I get a disc. My current setting is 7. I suspect that really some one needs to do rather a lot of tedious sieving to see what the effect of the disc really is. A full set of sieves of course. Super tedious so probably wont ever happen and may even be impossible to do with the full range. Maybe laser particle analysis but that is well known for having problems with none spherical particles.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I am afraid you lost me a bit there John. The main thing is that you can adapt things to your personal workflow and that's obviously working well for you and your coffees.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I await the disc but things seem to have changed in respect to Niche. For instance comments made where I can say I found this too.
> 
> ...have moved on to the disc evening out grinds distribution. I found that it clearly produced too many fines for a while but that was only really apparent after I reduced my usual dose - essentially Niche grinds take up more space - reduced by stirring.
> 
> ...


 Stirring/shaking grinds cannot affect the grind size distribution. The bits are the size that they are, however you arrange them. Stirring/shaking can collapse voids & clumps, this may help you spread about ('distribute') the 'grind size distribution' (characteristic of the ground particles) you have in your basket more effectively.

Particle distributions for hopper fed & single dose don't seem to have all come to the same conclusion, there's just not enough data there. Setting your grinder coarser/finer shouldn't greatly affect the grind size distribution that much, more the average size. Of coarse, going finer reduces the span from 0um to 95% of your grind, but that is not the same as changing the distribution characteristic, it's just making everything smaller.

Finer/coarser settings, to get the same result, are a bit moot if you do things the same way each time, it's the fineness/coarseness of the ground material that matters & most grinder setting numbers are not in any SI units that obviously relate to average grind size.

Sieving for espresso is easy enough at coarser side of grinding, it takes a few minutes, you don't need a full set unless your looking for fractions of a std.dev. or grinding vastly different grind sizes. The number of particles produced in a sample makes spherical/non-spherical LPA data less meaningful when we're talking about percentages and single beans are ground into tens of thousands (plus?) of bits each...in any case an LPA analysis is not within most people's grasp. To see the effect of the disc, you could do this with one sieve of the right size & see what effect the disc has compared to no disc & 80-90% (for instance) passing through the sieve. Sifting can take less time than it took me to write this.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

ajohn said:


> All I object to is popcorning comments as it doesn't do what people seem to think it does to any significant level.


 Are you basing this on the somewhat questionable speculation that a coarser grind setting is needed when single dosing because 'the grinder doesn't compact the grinds together in the grind chamber'?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Johey said:


> That's indeed a very good question. Although I already mentioned that I am still far from being able to taste the difference (still a newbie to "proper" coffee making & drinking) as an engineer I am now interested in this topic. I thought the grind size is only defined by the geometry of the burrs (and their alignment)? I don't see a real explanation for the change of the grind size...


 I've been interested in it for some time. Initially to design and make my own.  Conical as it has some distinct advantages for weighing in beans. These are apparent when one is used with hopper on and a timed dose of grinds. They are less dependent on the weight of beans in the hopper than flat burr grinders. I intended to use Robur burrs for max aperture for the beans to fall in and wondered about the Ceado approach as well. Gravity more or less gets the beans to the burrs on conical and once grinding they look after themselves. Flat use remarkably high levels of centrifugal force to get beans to grind and flow. A significant weight of beans is needed in the hopper to keep them down on the burrs. A common trick to help get consistent *timed* doses of grinds was to fit a tube hopper and add a pretty hefty weight on top of the beans.

The look after themselves aspect is more noticeable on some conical burrs than others. Take small burrs such as Sage use. There is a lot of corkscrew action forcing the beans through the burrs but it's there to some degree on all of them. As an example only the Sage grinder doesn't care about the weight of beans over the burrs. Kg's through it hopper on and off. Only problem I had was needing sufficient beans for them to fall out of the hopper onto the burrs. With checks of dose it would hold them to better than 0.2g once it settled down. This would only be apparent to some one that drank rather a lot of the same bean. Not much chance of me putting kg's through a Robur but behaviour is very similar.

Then switched to flat. Hopper on needs a coarser grind setting than off and weighing in. It's pretty easy to prevent popcorning on flat by sticking a weight over the beans when weighing in. It also appears to have other advantages but no comment as not 100% sure. One thing it doesn't change is the need for a finer grinder setting when weighing beans in. That is down to grinds being compacted into the grind chamber and it's exit when the hopper is on - resulting in stale grinds in the chamber and etc often commented on.

Flat tends to compact the grinds more than Niche does when weighing in and even more so when the hopper is on.  Afraid I have increased my tamping pressure for Niche but a lot of that is down to wanting used pucks to knock out cleanly.Not entirely though. Taste as well. I'm not going to do it as visual evidence is enough for me - but. Maybe some one will fit some sort of pressure transducer at the bottom of a basket and another on top of the grinds and tamp at X kg and see how much pressure is lost due to friction by the time it gets to the bottom. That can be increased by a rapid invert when the grinds are put into the portafilter so that they literally fall in. It also probably loosens up the stuff that finishes up in the top section of the grinds a little.

Enough. Could go on an on and having used several grinders all show the same.

What this disc is probably actually doing is evening up the beans application around the burrs and not leaving a lot of this down to chance especially towards the end of a grind. That could help produce more consistent tastes if some one hasn't found some other way of doing it. It isn't going to do anything about the grinds compaction aspects IMHO but will wait and see. That does seem to be the fundamental reason for differences when weighing beans in on any grinder. Weighing in eases problems. Niche eases yet more.  No point in doing my own Niche now so my thoughts drift towards how to make a flat burr Niche that doesn't have any problems when in practice compared with normal commercial grinder operation it can't be the same if it's to offer near zero retention as Niche does.

John

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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

DaveC has a video on YouTube which answers the popcorning question. I'm going to hold out on ordering my Niche until that mod comes as standard on all new machines


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

ok.


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

KingoftheHeath said:


> DaveC has a video on YouTube which answers the popcorning question. I'm going to hold out on ordering my Niche until that mod comes as standard on all new machines


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

catpuccino said:


>


LOL. I felt exactly the same.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I just assumed it was a joke...


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

KingoftheHeath said:


> DaveC has a video on YouTube which answers the popcorning question. I'm going to hold out on ordering my Niche until that mod comes as standard on all new machines


 Sorry all, I'm on my mobile and was commenting on page 1 of the discussion... failed to see that there were another 6 pages of discussion.

I feel as stupid as you think I am.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

KingoftheHeath said:


> I feel as stupid as you think I am.


 I wouldn't worry, wait until you resurrect a 3 year old thread without noticing as I have done a few times.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Probably most Nichetters have received an email but in case someone is wondering when the NFC is due...

"Currently we are planning to have the NFC disk available to order as an extra spare part around mid-February. It will also be available with the grinder around the same time.
When we have the exact dates and details, we will be sure to let you know when it is available.
We really appreciate your excitement, but please try to avoid emailing us about this part as you will only receive the same answer."


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Saw on Facebook a new Niche with NFC disk. It's transparent with niche branding.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> Saw on Facebook a new Niche with NFC disk. It's transparent with niche branding.


 I'm still waiting to get some!!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

You want more than one?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> You want more than one?


 Well I don't have even one and I have a few friends with Niche grinders, so I was going to spread them around a bit. Saves friends of mine waiting on an order from far, far away..

I do actually sometimes give stuff away you know


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Agentb said:


> Probably most Nichetters have received an email but in case someone is wondering when the NFC is due...
> _"Currently we are planning to have the NFC disk available to order as an extra spare part around mid-February. It will also be available with the grinder around the same time.
> When we have the exact dates and details, we will be sure to let you know when it is available.
> We really appreciate your excitement, but please try to avoid emailing us about this part as you will only receive the same answer."_


Thanks for the heads up. I'd have missed it hidden as it was amongst the daily spam

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I'm still waiting to get some!!


Have you ended up using the disk full time Dave and apart from having to set the grinder finer, any other differences detected?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> Have you ended up using the disk full time Dave and apart from having to set the grinder finer, any other differences detected?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 As per my experiment with splitting the grind covered here, a tighter grind distribution. I like the flavour and better performance with lighter roasts.

I use the prototype NFC all the time now.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> like the flavour and better performance with lighter roasts.


 Was it noticeable with medium roasts?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think it's an all round improvement


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> As per my experiment with splitting the grind covered here, a tighter grind distribution. I like the flavour and better performance with lighter roasts.
> 
> I use the prototype NFC all the time now.


 I'm using some of those at the moment. A lot more popcorning than I usually get.  Had a bit of a problem as have never needed to grind at a setting of zero before. This one is green apple and blackcurrent, the cocoa aspect probably needs a bigger basket as it's pretty subtle at the moment.

Also tried a mildly fruity medium. That's what I got. Could / maybe have got more of some aspects of the taste out but liked it early on.

John

-


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

Deleted-posted in wrong thread!


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## JonathanK (Feb 12, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Different mouthfeel for sure and taste for sure but I would rather people come to their own conclusions. You can get a similar effect by throwing the beans in 3s until all 17 or 18g have gone in and then pull a shot.....I did that for ages. With the grinder used normally and dialled in for espresso, go about 4 marks finer and then try it....otherwise you will get a gusher.


 @DavecUK

I tried one of the 3D printed prototypes on thingverse - https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4105203.

Does it make sense that for the same bean I had to go 10 marks finer - From 20 to 10 ?

Thanks.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JonathanK said:


> @DavecUK
> 
> I tried one of the 3D printed prototypes on thingverse - https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4105203.
> 
> ...


 Needs a bit more context really.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

I wondered if one keyhole works, then would two or three work better for less ?


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## JonathanK (Feb 12, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Needs a bit more context really.


 Ok.

I printed a 3D model that is based on your NFC disc prototype.

After placing it, I had to grind much finer to get the same shot time. I had to grind at mark 10 instead of 20 for the same coffee.

Since you wrote that with the disc you need to grind only 4 marks finer, I was wondering if my result made sense.

I have an E61 HX with vibration pump.

Thanks,

Jonathan


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JonathanK said:


> Since you wrote that with the disc you need to grind only 4 marks finer, I was wondering if my result made sense.
> 
> I have an E61 HX with vibration pump


 I really don't have enough information to know. If you say it does, then it does.....


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## JonathanK (Feb 12, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I really don't have enough information to know. If you say it does, then it does.....


 My printed model looks and operates the same as your prototype (I presume).

So what I'm actually asking is:

1. Have you ever had the need to grind that fine with your prototype for espresso ?

2. Should I be worried that I need to grind that fine as it is much closer to '0' than what I used before the installation of the disc. (My grinder is calibrated)

Thanks


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

JonathanK said:


> My printed model looks and operates the same as your prototype (I presume).
> 
> So what I'm actually asking is:
> 
> ...


 What do you mean "your grinder is calibrated". There is no such thing on the Niche. Its entirely guess work. Anything that uses the human hand to tighten to a rough level is not calibrated. Getting near to 0 isn't an issue as your 0 may be someone elses 8.


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## JonathanK (Feb 12, 2020)

mctrials23 said:


> What do you mean "your grinder is calibrated". There is no such thing on the Niche. Its entirely guess work. Anything that uses the human hand to tighten to a rough level is not calibrated. Getting near to 0 isn't an issue as your 0 may be someone elses 8.


 Calibrated as in what you showed in your video.

I don't see how two different people get their burrs to touch each other with such a difference as 8 to 10 marks.

2-3 marks is a more acceptable difference I guess.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JonathanK said:


> 3. My printed model looks and operates the same as your prototype (I presume).
> 
> So what I'm actually asking is:
> 
> ...


 1. No

2. No

3. I have no idea


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

JonathanK said:


> Calibrated as in what you showed in your video.
> 
> I don't see how two different people get their burrs to touch each other with such a difference as 8 to 10 marks.
> 
> 2-3 marks is a more acceptable difference I guess.


 Thats kind of my point. When these were going out to a lot of people at once there was a huge range of "numbers" that people were at for espresso so there is no calibration, just a bit of educated guesswork. Worrying about what number you are at on a largely made up range isn't worth doing.


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## JonathanK (Feb 12, 2020)

mctrials23 said:


> Thats kind of my point. When these were going out to a lot of people at once there was a huge range of "numbers" that people were at for espresso so there is no calibration, just a bit of educated guesswork. Worrying about what number you are at on a largely made up range isn't worth doing.


 I wouldn't that a made up range, it is determined by the physical gap (or no gap) between the burrs.

Once you turn the grind position clockwise until you can't anymore - this means that this is your limit, and it is where you will damage the burrs.

If - on this setting, in order to get a decent shot time - you need to set it at 0 (just exaggerating a bit), this practically means that you have less play and going any finer could damage your burrs.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

JonathanK said:


> I wouldn't that a made up range, it is determined by the physical gap (or no gap) between the burrs.
> 
> Once you turn the grind position clockwise until you can't anymore - this means that this is your limit, and it is where you will damage the burrs.
> 
> If - on this setting, in order to get a decent shot time - you need to set it at 0 (just exaggerating a bit), this practically means that you have less play and going any finer could damage your burrs.


 I've settled on a grip that is only a bit more than needed to rotate the adjuster to calibrate Niche and also tested the calibration after rotating the centre burr a bit several times. More gripping pressure can move the calibration by a few dots. It needs a lot more which probably isn't a good idea. Doubt if this makes any more than 3 dots difference.

I'd have no worries about setting at zero or even off the scale within reason. So all in all if some one can't calibrate to a couple of dots poor you. The only complication is the burrs running in. Probably 5 or 6 dots in my case. I used it for 12months plus without recalibrating.

Lowest I have been is 2 but for an unusual bean and a small dose.

John

-


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

It probably won't be linear.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@JonathanK, I wouldn't worry about it. If you had to go down 10 steps, so be it. How does the coffee taste? Are you happy with it? It can be all sorts: burrs age, how much coffee had gone through, your machine, your coffee.... you name it.

Just enjoy the grinder and your machine.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> It probably won't be linear.


 The thread gives a linear change in space between the burrs so 1 dot change at say a setting at around 10 is a higher % grain size change than 1 dot at 20 would be.

I'm having to make part dot adjustments but it is much easier to do than other grinders I have used.

John

-


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## tj893 (Apr 17, 2020)

@dsc

Might be of interest- James Hoffman's latest YouTube video discussing feeding beans in as slowly as possible into the grinder (ie bean by bean whilst it's running) and the effect it has on grind size and resultant shot.... I thought immediately of this thread and some of the interesting discussion! Starts off with regrinding coffee but moves on about half way through.






He's using a niche with NFC but doesn't really talk about its effect on feed rate (unless I missed it).


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

tj893 said:


> @dsc
> 
> Might be of interest- James Hoffman's latest YouTube video discussing feeding beans in as slowly as possible into the grinder (ie bean by bean whilst it's running) and the effect it has on grind size and resultant shot.... I thought immediately of this thread and some of the interesting discussion! Starts off with regrinding coffee but moves on about half way through
> 
> He's using a niche with NFC but doesn't really talk about its effect on feed rate (unless I missed it).


 Fairy certain you've tagged the person who emailed JH. Not sure on this I think DaveC recommended something like the NFC to Niche off the back of experiments feeding a few beans at a time into a grinder/splitting doses that were started by DSC. Seems like JH isn't aware that the NFC is not just an anti-popcorn disc it's actually there to control the flow into the grinder hence the name. The way he mentions it seems like he thinks it's an accident it has its effect. Good to see the topic getting widespread attention anyway, maybe we'll see more grinders being tested from it.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@tj893 - back in 2015...

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/25626-a-not-so-quick-experiment-single-dosed-grinders/

Or refer back to around post #126 on this thread.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Holy shit it was 2015







I though the first time I mentioned it was around 2-3 years ago.


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## tj893 (Apr 17, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @tj893 - back in 2015...
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/25626-a-not-so-quick-experiment-single-dosed-grinders/
> 
> Or refer back to around post #126 on this thread.


 Indeed- it wasn't that I thought JH was onto anything new, more that I recognised some of dsc's theories that I'd already read here.

As Rob1 says, it could be interesting to see what happens now that he's put it out there on his platform. Albeit 5 years late!


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## CremaNiall (May 26, 2019)

The Niche Accessories site has the solution to popcorning.

The Niche Flow Control Disc is a simple after-market installation for first generation Niche Zero grinders.

The small (40mm), clear disc is made from food grade polycarbonate. When installed into the bean funnel, the Niche Flow Control Disc prevents 'pop-corning' - coffee beans jumping around the funnel prior to being fully fed into the burrs.

Because the Niche Flow Control Disc feeds beans into the burrs at a steady pace the grind consistency is also improved.

Click here to see how easy it is to install the Niche Flow Control Disc.

One disc per order.


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## CremaNiall (May 26, 2019)

https://nichespares.com/


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