# Would like to buy the Alex Duetto III but...



## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Hi all

a small introduction first:

female, 45 years 'young'

I am half italian and as such 'love' espresso









however, just recently (2 months ago) learnt to drink it with NO sugar so I have only just started appreciating it this way and the more I drink it the more I fall in love.

I bought a Gaggia Classic (old one manufactured 2005) second hand, changed the group head to a brass one, installed a PID to machine and modified pressure valve to 10bar (so it's 9 going through the coffee in portafilter)

My technique is quite good, I use a naked portafilter with VST basket 18gr.

Anyhow...

I have only had this Gaggia a month now and I am already 'drooling' and dreaming of an Alex Duetto III

















I do not have milky drinks (the rare occasion of me doing one is for guests) but I do LOVE the idea of the Duetto III because of the rotary valve, E61 group head blah blah blah









I drink a minimum of 4 espresso a day (2 in the morning, 2 to 3 in the evening), occasionally I may make more than 5 a day.

My main question is:

will I really tell a difference in my espresso for the 'better' if I upgrade to this machine ? I know functionality wise it 'is' better, but the actual coffee? can I get an even better shot?

I am happy to pay the price if it will get me a better espresso, the gaggia will end up on Ebay









sorry if it's a stupid question by the way and if it is please forgive me and I am ready to be educated









thank you all for your patience

PS If I end up buying it I will drive up to BellaBarista to get it (2hrs drive for me), will they let me try it before I buy it? (I will ask them but they are closed today)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Welcome to the forum. If the Alex is hooked up at BB they will definitely let you try it. A decent espresso machine with consistent temp control will produce a better espresso but only if it is paired with a good grinder so you need to think about that if you don't already have one.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Welcome to the forum. If the Alex is hooked up at BB they will definitely let you try it. A decent espresso machine with consistent temp control will produce a better espresso but only if it is paired with a good grinder so you need to think about that if you don't already have one.


thank you systemic kid

yes I do need to upgrade the grinder too I know, at present I have the 'Sage by heston blumenthal Smart Grinder Pro' (ie the newer version), it was a pressie...

I have to admit it is quite good, but I am sure when I try another I will be even more impressed? if so which one should I go for from here?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

With the Classic you might get one shot in ten where you think 'Bloody hell, that was good'. A Duetto you bring that ratio down as it will be much more consistent like TSK says. You'll need a good grinder though.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> With the Classic you might get one shot in ten where you think 'Bloody hell, that was good'.


Yes I think you are right...the coffee I get out of it is mostly good but yeah, only one now and again it's a 'bloody hell' shot

















am looking at grinders now







would be great if one that BellaBarista has is the one so I don't have to go to more than one place or order the grinder online


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

How much are you willing to spend on a grinder?


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> How much are you willing to spend on a grinder?


willing any amount in theory but...... that I 'can' unfortunately not much as the Izzo machine will take all the money I have







(well I have £2200 left more or less and credit cards of course...LOL but the Izzo is taking most of that at £1800)

so what do you think is one I can get away with without getting too big a loan from the bank?

I can always upgrade the grinder again in due course once I've saved up


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Suggest you ring BB and make an appointment, then you will have their undivided attentions!They have a wide range of machines on displayed will let you use them after a chat. At the price point you are at,the Duetto is one option but also the Verona is another. In the UK this machine is a BB special, not available through anyone else. There are plenty of threads on here covering both. All Izzo owners love their machines as do Verona, so you need to ask yourself what is the real difference and forget looks! Dave who contributes on here had a hand in the design of both machines...perhaps he will chip in!


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Do you need a dual boiler if not making milk drinks? The only benefit would be adjusting temp via a PID but HX machines now come with these. How about a Rocket Evo 3 saving more money for a bad ass grinder?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?23566-Ceado-e37-Electric-Grinder-%A3450-00-collected&highlight=ceado

You could try and snaffle this within budget with a cheeky offer


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

forzajuve said:


> Do you need a dual boiler if not making milk drinks? The only benefit would be adjusting temp via a PID but HX machines now come with these. How about a Rocket Evo 3 saving more money for a bad ass grinder?


Hi, I can't find this machine...I can find the rocket Giotto or Cellini etc would you be so kind to help me as to which one it is?







thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

My advice go to Bella Barista, have a look at the machines. I think the Verona is a good pick for you for a number of reasons and will give you the performance you need at a decent price point. it has a number of advantages over the Duetto. If you buy a machine and grinder together, you should be able to cut a deal with BB. With a machine like the Verona don't cheap out on the grinder. The Compak K3 or Eureka Mignon is really a minimum spec grinder for that machine and a better grinder is hugely desirable.

The above is assuming you want to buy new and have a 3 year warranty on the grinder and 2 year warranty on the machine. if you buy correctly now, your pretty much done for as long as you want, as upgrading brings only small benefits after you get the right kit. So you might consider a pairing of Verona+Eureka Olympus 75E (with TiN burrs) as a very good setup.. and the Eureka TiN burrs will last you for around 30 years in domestic use and a 75mm flat burrset produces good results in the cup, it's also a very easy grinder to use, clean and live with. One word of advice though, try not to borrow money for your setup.

P.S. There are many advantages to a dual boiler machine over an HX beyond just being able to adjust temperature with a PID. I no longer own any HX machines, all mine (3 machines) are dual boiler now. I used to have 4 dual boilers, but sold one. I don't often make milk drinks and the argument about having a HX if you don't make milk drinks is not a good one. You could equally argue that if you make lots of milk drinks an HX is better. I own both a Verona and a Duetto and used to own a Rocket R58 dual boiler.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

As an upgrade path I followed this (Gaggia Classic to Alex Duetto)

The number of sink shots should be nil with the Alex

Night and Day difference between the two

If you can afford it - go for it

There is usually a Duetto plugged in at Bella Barista

Call Claudette / Marko on Monday and they will advise what's on their bench at present


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> My advice go to Bella Barista, have a look at the machines. I think the Verona is a good pick for you for a number of reasons and will give you the performance you need at a decent price point. it has a number of advantages over the Duetto. If you buy a machine and grinder together, you should be able to cut a deal with BB. With a machine like the Verona don't cheap out on the grinder. The Compak K3 or Eureka Mignon is really a minimum spec grinder for that machine and a better grinder is hugely desirable.
> 
> The above is assuming you want to buy new and have a 3 year warranty on the grinder and 2 year warranty on the machine. if you buy correctly now, your pretty much done for as long as you want, as upgrading brings only small benefits after you get the right kit. So you might consider a pairing of Verona+Eureka Olympus 75E (with TiN burrs) as a very good setup.. and the Eureka TiN burrs will last you for around 30 years in domestic use and a 75mm flat burrset produces good results in the cup, it's also a very easy grinder to use, clean and live with. One word of advice though, try not to borrow money for your setup.
> 
> P.S. There are many advantages to a dual boiler machine over an HX beyond just being able to adjust temperature with a PID. I no longer own any HX machines, all mine (3 machines) are dual boiler now. I used to have 4 dual boilers, but sold one. I don't often make milk drinks and the argument about having a HX if you don't make milk drinks is not a good one. You could equally argue that if you make lots of milk drinks an HX is better. I own both a Verona and a Duetto and used to own a Rocket R58 dual boiler.





Glenn said:


> As an upgrade path I followed this (Gaggia Classic to Alex Duetto)
> 
> The number of sink shots should be nil with the Alex
> 
> ...


thank you both for your input

I will go to BellaBarista in person as I do want to see things and talk to the people I am buying from....Dave thanks a lot for the grinder advice much much needed!

going to look at these options now

Glenn...Night and Day difference definitely sounds worth it, especially as espresso is perhaps the only treat I have in life


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> My advice go to Bella Barista, have a look at the machines. I think the Verona is a good pick for you for a number of reasons and will give you the performance you need at a decent price point. it has a number of advantages over the Duetto. If you buy a machine and grinder together, you should be able to cut a deal with BB. With a machine like the Verona don't cheap out on the grinder. The Compak K3 or Eureka Mignon is really a minimum spec grinder for that machine and a better grinder is hugely desirable.


Dave would you be so kind to 'expand' as to why you think the Verona will be a more suitable option for me? also what are the advantages over the Duetto in your opinion?

thank you


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

This is why it is tricky to make decisions with different advice out there. I would always say that spending your budget wisely on a better grinder rather than a DB with something like a Mignon will improve your shots way more than the difference between top end HX and DB.

At the end of the day trying them out at BB is the way to go, fully talking through your requirements to make an informed decision.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

More temp stable machine = more consistent espresso with the quality defined limited by skills, coffee , water and grinder.

More consistent grind ( from " better " grinder ) potential more in the cup taste wise but consistency limited by skills , coffee , water and machine.

Knack is to have a balance


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Give BB a call and you should be able to taste many coffees from many machine / grinder combinations if they know you coming ( there really is no pressure there) +1 on all the comments re grinder as the best machine in the world fed by a grinder not up to the task is a disappointing place to be.

Try the suggested machines with different grinders and you will hopefully taste what is being discussed above and stop at what you can afford! If you have a bean you know the taste of am sure if you ask really nicley once have tried a few shots with BB's beans they will take your beans so you can have a real test of what benefit you will gain over your current set up. Don't be suprised if the biggest taste difference in the cup comes from the choice of grinder rather than the machine itself. Old hifi adage: gargage in, garbage out, the earlier you put better components in the chain, the better with to a certain degree the law of diminishing returns being applied, so good fresh beans, good grinder, decent machine etc etc.

Hope of help and some good advice, above this post, to take along with you.

Best of luck and let us know how you get on

John


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

johnealey said:


> Best of luck and let us know how you get on
> 
> John


will do John

I will ring them on Monday and 'book an appointment' so I will get their undivided attention







I will have to take a day off work to go there but it will be a nice 'holiday'









now that 'you people' have put the Verona machine in my head I am 'intrigued' as to why this may be an other option for me to look at, but am sure at BB they will help me get to the right conclusion for myself


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I wanted the Alex and arranged a visit to BB to test, unfortunately though they did not have o e set up so couldn't play, went for a rocket R58 in the end. As lots of said give them a call Monday and arrange a time to visit, you will get well looked after and if you couple in a grinder you should get a nice little discount as I did.

Grinder is key with these level of machines, choose well!


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Nobodysdriving said:


> Hi all
> 
> a small introduction first:
> 
> ...


Other than the fact that I'm slightly older, not female and not even slightly Italian - I could have written your post myself a few years ago.

My drink profile is identical to yours (milk just for guests, I drink espresso or strong Americano).

I had a Classic (still have it in my office), with brass plate, PID, OPV, etc

I upgraded directly to a Duetto (II in my case). Great machine, ideal for my drink profile (yes, you want a dual boiler!).

Now I'll frustrate you - because with a great grinder you CAN get comparable shots from the Classic... I really enjoy the shots from my heavily modded Classic - but enjoy (sometimes more sometimes less) the shots from my (almost) standard Duetto.

The Duetto looks much nicer and sounds much better too!

Where are you? You may find someone on here with a Duetto who is close to you - there's a thread somewhere with wonders/machines that are prepared to help.

I'm in Wiltshire - and you could gladly bring your Classic to me and compare results if you wanted to come and see / use a Duetto.

Anyway, the upgrade that you're looking at is exactly what I did 5 years ago and I've not looked back so do it!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dave's review of the Verona

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/quick-mill-verona-dual-boiler-espresso-machine.html

and the Duetto

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/the-new-izzo-duetto-mk-iv.html

looking both links for the review or closer look


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

MrShades said:


> Other than the fact that I'm slightly older, not female and not even slightly Italian - I could have written your post myself a few years ago.
> 
> My drink profile is identical to yours (milk just for guests, I drink espresso or strong Americano).
> 
> ...


Hi MrShades









thank you!

I am in the south of London

I will take up your offer of seeing the duetto (and trying its espressos) if my visit to BB does not prove 'fruitful'









yes the 'heavily modded' Classic is not too bad and everyone's right that the grinder is a key part....

from this 'Sage Smart Grinder Pro' which 'lower budget range' grinder from BB will be 'better' or is there any which I should not 'bother' with as they will be similar in what they do?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

If you want to spend around £200 then to get maximum value for money I'd go with a used commercial grinder - something like a nice condition Mazzer Super Jolly (or anything else with 64mm flat burrs and 1400rpm).

Much better spending £220 on a Mazzer (that'll last a life time) than slightly less on a plastic Sage (that'll fail within 2 yrs probably)


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Check this thread for someone local http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17083


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I reckon the OP should save up for a decent on demand given how much coffee she makes.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> I reckon the OP should save up for a decent on demand given how much coffee she makes.


on demand?

sorry Jeebsy which type of grinder is that?

PS I never leave the beans in the hopper I usually just put enough for my coffee each time, is a 'on demand' one the type you leave the coffee beans in there?

I was thinking if it was that bad to keep the one I have (the smart grinder pro) to then upgrade in the very near future, but would the smart grinder pro be such a useless thing I have to replace it immediately? if it was then how about getting the 'Eureka Mignon MK2' then a few months later upgrade? or maybe even a year later get the M3?


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

MrShades said:


> If you want to spend around £200 then to get maximum value for money I'd go with a used commercial grinder - something like a nice condition Mazzer Super Jolly (or anything else with 64mm flat burrs and 1400rpm).
> 
> Much better spending £220 on a Mazzer (that'll last a life time) than slightly less on a plastic Sage (that'll fail within 2 yrs probably)


I am not going to buy the plastic Sage, I already have one LOL









ok 64mm minimum I should aim for then?


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Oops - Flog it quickly and buy a 2nd hand grinder that's made of metal!


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

MrShades said:


> Oops - Flog it quickly and buy a 2nd hand grinder that's made of metal!


hahahahaha









I have to say...I do like this one

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/eureka-olympus-75e-espresso-grinder.html

however about £400 more than I have to spend...I can do 2 or 3 extra shift at work though and that will be paid for so maybe maybe


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Yes, it looks very nice whilst an espresso machine is often bought by folk on here as brand new, grinders (commercial, great grind quality, built like tanks) are often bought and sold on here in v good 'used' condition - you get MUCH more for your money. I've never bought a new grinder...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just let BB explain everything to you!think of it like this: a coffee machine is like an oven. It merely produces something with the ingredients you put into it.The better the grinder, the better the ground coffee you put into your machine. If you have a top end machine, it makes sense not to have an entry level grinder. Dave has already alerted you to the deal BB have which is a Eureka Olympus 75 mm. At BB,ask to taste a coffee made no Verona with that then an entry level grinder and see if you can spot the difference


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

thank you for all the replies

'wow' set off to buy izzo machine and now looking at verona and izzo









can't wait for monday to call BB and 'book a date'









I really am focusing on the Olympus grinder but will see what things are like at BBs







as for the machine I don't know, now I like them both


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Olympus should be a fine match.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nobodysdriving said:


> Dave would you be so kind to 'expand' as to why you think the Verona will be a more suitable option for me? also what are the advantages over the Duetto in your opinion?
> 
> thank you


Well the Verona is what the Duetto should have become functionally. The Duetto has been fiddled with over the years from the basic design criteria I gave Izzo, but the changes mainly increased cost rather than improved function. The drip tray on current models is ridiculously small in comparison to the lump of metal you remove to empty it. The pump mounting on the Verona is better (and certified), the steaming on the Verona is better...proper dual loop PID. It's also really easy to drain the boilers for descaling/storage or maintenance. It's also a much cleaner and neater looking machine. I particularily like the combined vacuum breaker and safety valve and for me the brass brew boiler is no taste compared to the copper one used in the Duetto and I think a better quality material than copper for a brew boiler.

My sense is that you want all new kit and to be honest at 45 years young, it's not an unreasonable wish as it will then be with you for a lifetime if that's what you want.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Well the Verona is what the Duetto should have become functionally. The Duetto has been fiddled with over the years from the basic design criteria I gave Izzo, but the changes mainly increased cost rather than improved function. The drip tray on current models is ridiculously small in comparison to the lump of metal you remove to empty it. The pump mounting on the Verona is better (and certified), the steaming on the Verona is better...proper dual loop PID. It's also really easy to drain the boilers for descaling/storage or maintenance. It's also a much cleaner and neater looking machine. I particularily like the combined vacuum breaker and safety valve and for me the brass brew boiler is no taste compared to the copper one used in the Duetto and I think a better quality material than copper for a brew boiler.
> 
> My sense is that you want all new kit and to be honest at 45 years young, it's not an unreasonable wish as it will then be with you for a lifetime if that's what you want.


thank you, much appreciated, sounds all good









yes I want to buy new and yes would be nice to have great coffee to last me another 45 years


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## Brewdog (Jun 29, 2014)

This thread has gave me food for thought as I'm thinking of upgrading to a dual boiler too. Sorry to jump in but I was wondering how the r58 directly compares?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Here were my thoughts from a couple of years ago

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?10064-Rocket-R58-vs-new-Alex-Duetto-III-(aka-Alex-Duetto-Mk-IV-in-the-UK)

I have used almost all Dual Boilers in the Izzo (Alex Duetto), Quickmill (Verona), Rocket and Vibiemme ranges

Each is slightly different than the next, and all require a decent skillset to use them effectively (to get the best out of them)


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## Brewdog (Jun 29, 2014)

Just what I was looking for. Thanks @Glenn


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@Glenn At risk of going OT for a minute, now that the Vibiemme range is once again available in the UK it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on how the Domobar Super DB compares with the Alex and the Verona, not 'this one is best' but the differences. You must be one of the few people to have experience with all three.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

I should have one of the new Vibiemme Domobar Super 2B machines on my bench shortly so can then give a direct side-by-side with the Duetto


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## Krax (Oct 26, 2014)

I did the BB visit myself a couple of months back, originally intending to look at an Expobar Dual Boiler that was on offer, only to become smitten by the looks and quality of the Profitech 700. Superbly engineered, with stainless steel boilers and a built in shot timer as a bonus.

I would recommend keeping an open mind until you visit BB. Take on board the advice you have already been given, view the machines on display, listen to what Marko/Claudette have to say, try your favourites and then decide.

I hope this helps


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

My second machine was a Londiinium 1. I love the consistency of the shots. Have you considered a lever?


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

grumpydaddy said:


> My second machine was a Londiinium 1. I love the consistency of the shots. Have you considered a lever?


yes I have grumpydaddy as my father is from Naples and they always 'argue' that lever machines are the ones that make 'real espresso' hahahaha


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

BB have a nice Italian lever machine. I have one myself. That does not make it good of course but I have a reputation, whether deserved or not, for never keeping kit long. I have had this machine since September last year and can see no reason at all to change it as there is nothing any better out there that appeals to me. It is called the Veloce and made by QuickMill


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I have a reputation, whether deserved or not, for never keeping kit long. I have had this machine since September last year and can see no reason at all to change it as there is nothing any better out there that appeals to me.


Aren't they the usual 'famous last words' until the next change/upgrade, lol?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> Aren't they the usual 'famous last words' until the next change/upgrade, lol?


Possibly, but not this time! If I wanted to change for changes sake, what would I buy. I have had 3 Londiniums, a GS3, a Vesuvius and on the whole, pump machines do not turn me on. There is nothing new in the lever world and the machine I have has the world recognised group assembly, so until someone comes up with an improvement.......might this be it?

http://dailycoffeenews.com/2015/07/02/strietman-announces-the-ct1-a-new-high-end-home-lever-machine/


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Was half pulling your leg dfk41! 

Perhaps should have stipulated it in regards to grinders more so than espresso machines as of late?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Possibly, but not this time! If I wanted to change for changes sake, what would I buy. I have had 3 Londiniums, a GS3, a Vesuvius and on the whole, pump machines do not turn me on. There is nothing new in the lever world and the machine I have has the world recognised group assembly, so until someone comes up with an improvement.......might this be it?
> 
> http://dailycoffeenews.com/2015/07/02/strietman-announces-the-ct1-a-new-high-end-home-lever-machine/


Er, no


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> BB have a nice Italian lever machine.


No, you are not talking me into getting a lever machine
























I can't wait to be at BBs now, will call them tomorrow and ask if I can go on Tuesday as I am 'itching' to get my hands on a new machine


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Nobodysdriving said:


> No, you are not talking me into getting a lever machine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Makes sense to have a look at the veloce whilst you're there though. Coffee like zio Tony used to make? :-D


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

YAY I have been in email contact with Claudette and have arranged to go tomorrow to BB

'however' she said none of their machines are 'plumbed in'???

I then called and spoke to another woman and she was very vague about trying machines/grinders saying 'it depends'









I am worried I will not get the gold-service of trying a machine/grinder but am still going anyway...


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## Obsy (May 21, 2012)

I think when Claudette said none of the machines were plumbed in, she meant they weren't connected to the mains water but were tank fed - would make setting them up on the bench much easier.

From what I can gather, Claudette and Marko are very helpful and will be aware you will want to try some combinations so will be able to do this for you, especially as you have made an appointment.


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

Obsy said:


> I think when Claudette said none of the machines were plumbed in, she meant they weren't connected to the mains water but were tank fed - would make setting them up on the bench much easier.


I hope you're right! I said I'd like to try the Izzo III and the Verona 'if they are plumbed in' (meaning if they are available to be tested) but yeah she may mean they work off the tank reservoir )


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Eek today's the big day :-D. Happy machine hunting!


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

jlarkin said:


> Eek today's the big day :-D. Happy machine hunting!


Thank you









Just at GP for an appointment and hopefully setting off by 9am









Will post this evening either in this forum or the quick mill one depending on which one I buy


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## Nobodysdriving (Jul 4, 2015)

thank you to EVERYONE for their input and kindness, I have posted a new thread about my experience at BBs today and my new machines:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?25222-I-DID-IT!!-I-visited-BB-and-got-myself-a-machine-and-grinder&p=324527#post324527


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