# Sticky  Sage dual boiler steam boiler always on



## chris.gid

Has anyone had a problem with the DB where the steam boiler is always on (only way to turn it off is the whole machine by the plug). With my machine as soon as the power is turned on at the plug the steam boiler starts to get warm straight away, even if you have not turned the machine on using the button on the front. The boiler doesn't seem to regulate itself so the steam pressure is significantly higher than when the machine was working fine.

When i did a bit of research it seemed to point at the Triac failing, i have since replaced the Triacs (for the steam and brew boiler) and the problem still persists. I have tested the Triacs using a multi-meter and they seem to be working (and tested the old ones after replacing them and they seemed to be working as well).

Does anyone have any alternative solutions, reluctant to replace the whole Triac board as i will need to order it from Australia and then also splice some wires to swap it over.

Thanks

Chris


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## ajohn

Is it a fibreglass board? There is another type that is usually brown that can have damp problems and dry joints causing problems late on. Running an iron over all of the joints usually fixes dry ones. Hissing and spitting if damp. Not many companies use this material any more but it's often kept in ovens to ensure they stay dry before being used in production.

Baking the board at 100C for a while should be ok.

Then what actually drives the triac?


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## chris.gid

This is the board

The joints all seem fine on visual inspection and the its all been conformally coated (hence my mess of the board scratching it off with a knife and file so i could actually get to the solder to replace the Triacs.

The machine has had the top off for a few days now so i would have expected any moisture to have evaporated....

The gates all seems to be connected to a common line on the board so i would have expected a failure on the board would have led to all of the boilers coming on not just the steam boiler?


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## ajohn

The resistors and capacitors look like snubbers. They are intended to limit the rise time on the mains and areas like that as they can turn triacs on.  It's why I always plug my machines into a spike suppressed extension lead. Those also take out very high voltage spikes that can crop up on the mains - good at destroying triacs. Curious - what voltage range do they use?

The chips are leaded so can be snipped off - make fitting new ones a lot easier.

The soldering doesn't look shiny and I suspect it is a paxolin board. Try resoldering a few of the larger joints with a wetted iron and see if there is any bubbling. I haven't really looked at mine but think it's fibreglass - those don't absorb moisture. A flux pen can help with resoldering, preferably a none corrosive one as that type should be cleaned off after use - wire brush but takes years to do bad things. Baking can get rid of moisture. Even 120C for a day should be ok but any temp that can dry will work. Consumer stuff can even run at 70C.

People with older Leyland cars used to turn up at work now and again with electronics that didn't function. Paxo boards and often running an iron over all of the joints restored them. Dry joints. Resoldering is just melting the stuff not adding more.

I think I would try drying it out first and then resolder if needed. No joy - snips and a new chip.

I'm not sure what the result of an NTC temperature sensor fault is but the boiler would only heat when the machine was turned on.

A more logical method - use a meter to compare voltages between a circuit that is working and the one that isn't. The triacs may be fired with pulses though. The so called brain could be checked by disconnecting the wire from it but check the voltage at the chip is the same as ones that are working. Things can be active high or low. There may be some part in the brain between a microcontroller and the output.


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## ajohn

The part numbers on the chips might give a clue as to how it works.


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## ajohn

Mmmmmm they have done it properly. This seems to be the chip

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/optocoupler-ics/6912306/?cm_mmc=UK-PPC-DS3A-_-google-_-3_UK_EN_Optocoupler ICs_Lite-On_Exact-_-Lite-On - Optocoupler ICs - 6912306 - 6-_-moc3063&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIpNr8tpX77wIVDevtCh2d5ga1EAAYASAAEgLbGPD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds&grossPrice=Y&kwd-361217125597&matchtype=e&s_kwcid=AL!7457!3!461613270185!e!!g!!moc3063

Total isolation from the mains.


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## chris.gid

Thanks, i'll give those a go and see if that solves it.


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## chris.gid

When you say the chips can be snipped off, what do you mean, would they not need to be removed by heating the solder and then pulling them off?


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## ajohn

Cut the leads to the chips with some decent electronics snips, side cutters. That way you will be unsoldering individual leads rather than trying to do all 6 at the same time. It usually works out better - when it can be done.

Personally I would try baking it and resoldering the joint first. Also before that check the voltage between Pins 1 and 2 on each chip. Looks like they will be at ~1v or so if the brain wants them on. In any case if a problem elsewhere the ones that are ok will be at one voltage and the problem one at a different voltage.


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## wanderdown

My Sage DB has just developed this issue. I'm afraid I don't have the techie skills to consider attempting the above though!!


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## wanderdown

And is it best to go back to Sage (out of warranty now) or to an independent repairer (recommendations - I'm in Brighton)?


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## chris.gid

Can help with repairers, may be worth asking in a local coffee shop who they use for servicing......but the impression i get from a lot of forums is that these machines have a lot of electronics in them so companies that service commercial machines may not service these as they are considered as 'appliances' rather than 'machines'....


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## chris.gid

Worth calling sage, it helped i knew what parts i wanted so i asked them if they had the parts (which they didn't) but if you ask them about repairs see if they offer any kind of discount on new machines, they offered me 40% off any new machine, given the discount i couldn't justify spending quite a lot more on any other dual boiler machines.


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## wanderdown

Thanks, Chris.


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## ajohn

Coffee Classics will repair it for you. Some one sorted that out on an Oracle rather recently.

There is another place that will as well - search Sage espresso machine repair. Looks like they only did Gaggia at one point. This may be why Sage are now pointing people at CC rather than handling it themselves.


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## 7877

I've had this issue with the steam boiler hot even when the machine switched off, like you only unplugging properly form the wall socket switched it off, combined with water/condensation accumulating in the pressure gauge, a minor leak (could never find where from), machine was always bone dry inside, I regularly descaled as advised by sage, then it started tripping out my electrics as soon as it started. So it eventually but the dust,

I'd had similar issues at a similar time in the machines life span previously and had it replaced under warranty, this time decided not to bother and trade up. Maybe it was repairable, I don't know, but the retailer didn't seem to suggest that and the previous time this happened sage themselves said it wasn't economical to repair. I never tried coffee classics, but with having this sort of trouble more than once after the sage got to a certain age and even though the sage was a good machine when it worked I decided it was time for a change.

it's possible the state of my machine was water related, perhaps incorrectly I followed sage' advice rather than general consensus on the forum. I know use RO water with my new machine.


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## ajohn

Like all machines they need opening up and inspecting periodically really and water leaks need to be found.

It's all a mixed bag as it's pretty clear that some DB's last for a long time. How many do they sell and how many fail before people might expect them not to need attention. I don't know and doubt if anyone else does. We do here from people who have had a problem.

I'm inclined to look at it on a cost per shot basis and that bits fail on all so there comes a point where I would be happy to replace with a new one. The warrantee should cover early failures of any type. Then comes the question of what some one gets when they buy them and what they get if they buy another make. Tricky area.

I have wondered about the machines descale interval but sadly in some ways my refurb arrived with more scale in it than a descale cycle will remove. I am at O ring replacement time  probably past it so time for an engineering style descale as well. This involves looking to see there isn't any and none accumulated anywhere. A lady on here paid engineers to do this sort of thing and a total inspection every 2 years. Some Sage users chose to buy the old filter style off Amazon as it was cheaper than Sage's. Only thing is that the Amazon ones don't soften at all. The DB comes with some guidance on water hardness. Their other machines tend not to.


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## Koli

Someone gave me sage dual boiler for a project. Seems like the same issue. Heating up when plugged in but not switched on... I opened it up. Fixed all the issues with o rings. Nothing is leaking now... However, the problem with heating still persists. What board should I inspect? The one at the top or on the back of the machine?


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## chris.gid

On the top, there should be a metal heatsink that covers the main triacs. Still havn't got round to replacing the optocouplers, as i have a new machine now old one is going in the loft for a project over winter.

Post back if replacing the chips addresses the issue.


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## Koli

chris.gid said:


> On the top, there should be a metal heatsink that covers the main triacs. Still havn't got round to replacing the optocouplers, as i have a new machine now old one is going in the loft for a project over winter.
> 
> Post back if replacing the chips addresses the issue.


 How do you know if it's a board that causing issue? I read it can be because of pump as well.


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## chris.gid

Im not technical but im not sure how the pumps could impact this? The board makes more sense, ie a logic gate stuck on the open position because its failed.


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## GrahamSPhillips

As said coffeeclassics will sort it for you and their prices are reasonable. What happens is the rubber seals start to leak and the hot fluid damages the board. So if the seals are inspected regularly and replaced further problems should not arise


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## Koli

Checked 3 sensors for temperatures. Seems like group head is overheating, not boilers.

Turn the machine off at the wall.
Press and hold simultaneously the "exit" and "manual" buttons then turn the machine on at the wall.
Press the "menu" button until the screen reads LLLL or HHH.
Press the "menu" and the "down" button to display the reported coffee temp
Press the "menu" button again to display the steam boiler temp.
Press the "menu" button again to display the group head NTC


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## terio

https://outwestcoffee.com.au/index.php/2020/10/19/breville-bes-920-coffee-boiler-failure-fuse-blown-you-replaced-it-but-the-machine-still-wont-reach-running-temp-93-degrees/

If it is overheating could well be this. I had this issue, replaced the probe, working golden ever since. I also bought a spare triac board just in case. Nice easy job. Although, getting parts may well be a hassle. I'm over in New Zealand so parts pretty easy to come by, but the probe took couple months from Oz as was on back order.

All the best with getting it going.


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## ajohn

Koli said:


> Checked 3 sensors for temperatures. Seems like group head is overheating, not boilers.
> 
> Turn the machine off at the wall.
> Press and hold simultaneously the "exit" and "manual" buttons then turn the machine on at the wall.
> Press the "menu" button until the screen reads LLLL or HHH.
> Press the "menu" and the "down" button to display the reported coffee temp
> Press the "menu" button again to display the steam boiler temp.
> Press the "menu" button again to display the group head NTC


 I just posted how to check permanently on triacs here. That can result in things getting too hot even the group head.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/60918-at-my-wits-end-bes870-uk/?do=embed


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## Koli

I am wondering, can I just switch off heating for brew head. It should not a the biggest problem right? It will warm up with hot water passing through. Am I mistaken?

My problem is definitely in brew head overheating while plugged in and switched off. Do you know which triac and micro chip is responsible for brew head on the board?

I am thinking about the solution for baking at 100C degrees for half an hour. Don't want to cut out the board as of now.

Thank you guys!


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## ajohn

Koli said:


> I am wondering, can I just switch off heating for brew head.


No not really. The brew head temperature has a lot to do with the actual brew temperature much like the massive heads used on some machines. E61 heads and similar for instance,


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## ajohn

One aspect didn't spring to mind when this thread cropped up. The DB's boilers are fitted with thermal fuses. The idea is to protect the boiler and heaters if they seriously overheat. I have read that they will do this as well. Very old posts on another forum.

They may be an added complication if they blow. I assume they cut power to the boilers but may just disable the drive to them.


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