# Smart Grinder Pro + DTP Beginner's problems



## Slates71 (Jul 9, 2017)

Hi all,

Got the smart grinder pro and DTP at the weekend. Decided to buy some Lavazza espresso beans for testing purposes to save ruining my freshly roasted ones.... Seam to be having problems getting the 'ideal' results... Hoping the forum can guide me properly maybe?

On the grinder I've been using grind 10,12,14...no change to the burr. Been running off approx 18gr,sometimes 19-20.. Tamping down with reasonable force 15kgs. Pop into the DTP and extract for 25-30secs (after pre extraction taken place). I've been getting very mixed results. Sometimes it trickles out through one spout so I assumed it's too fine or tampered too hard. The next time it runs out fairly quickly giving me a weight around 60gr after 25secs when it should be 32gr? I honestly don't think I've ever had a 32gr liquid weight after extraction. To be fair it's made a nice Americano and Cappuccino but I want to perfect this. What could I be doing wrong? Or is it simply poor quality beans?

Any support you can give will be really appreciated

Thank you,

Paul


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Buy bettet beans. Practicing with crap beans teaches you nothing


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Hi Paul hopefully we can all shed some light onto this for you.

Firstly you want to time your shot from when you first turn the dial and not from after the pre infusion. Also a lot of people focus mainly on the weight out rather than time.

It does sound like your grind is too coarse.

I'm currently on setting 1 on the burrs and 12 on my dial (I'm not on smart grinder just the basic one) so I don't have a lot of room left.

Go finer, use the non pressurised basket and get the 1:2 ratio in 30 seconds if you can then adjust from there if the taste doesn't suit. It could be that the beans are stale so you may never hit that ratio. Try a couple of shots with the fresh beans if that's the case and I'm sure you'll get there.

Sorry if I seem a bit rushed with my answer. On the clock at work.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Also basket wise use the double and go with 18g in and roughly 36g out. That's what I do.

Sorry if I'm telling you stuff you already know


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

The 'L' Beans are not good to learn with.

Try a sample pack from one of our Roaster advertisers from the Forum.

Come back for more advice after you've tried the fresher beans.

Folk here will always advise but you must start from a good quality bean base.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I would instead recommend you get a good amount of the "Glorious Espresso" bean from Crankhouse. It's a good bean, in my view. But that's my personal preference. Get 500g to tinker with.

I have your combo, and your grind setting sounds too coarse. I am consistently somewhere between 4 and 8, though I think I also adjusted the burr to a finer setting. If you haven't changed the burr then I'm probably running somewhere closer to 1 or 2 compared to you.

I would purchase a Motta 53mm tamper ASAP, too. The one that comes with the DTP is too flimsy, though stashes away nicely. I found a difference immediately when I upgraded the tamper.

So to summarise:

1. Better beans.

2. Grind finer.

3. Tamp better.

I'm over a year in and I still don't nail consistency every time, even making 2-3 doubles per day.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Buy freshly roasted beans and go for the darker roasts as they are much easier to dial in as opposed to anything lighter, for very reasonably priced and extremely tasty darker roast beans I recommend coffee compass. There is no point practicing with rubbish beans and you will only ever get a rubbish espresso. Keep tamp as firm as comfortably possible to maintain a consistent force, time from when you turn the dial and only manipulate grind size. Pick a ratio (1:2 is favored by most) and aim for a reasonable extraction time (30s with the aforementioned ratio), alter grind slightly from there to taste.


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## Slates71 (Jul 9, 2017)

Thank you all for your help..the Motta tamper is now on order and to try my fresher beans later. What concerns me is that you all are saying I'm grinding too coarse but at 12 setting the coffee drops out slowly and only 1 spout like it's really struggling to run through the coffee that's why thought I tampered it too hard


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Link to a vid I did using my DTP and sage grinder


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Slates71 said:


> Thank you all for your help..the Motta tamper is now on order and to try my fresher beans later. What concerns me is that you all are saying I'm grinding too coarse but at 12 setting the coffee drops out slowly and only 1 spout like it's really struggling to run through the coffee that's why thought I tampered it too hard


There is no such thing as tamping too hard, if you tamp as hard as you can and it just dribbles out, loosen up the grind.


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## Beth71 (Jan 4, 2017)

I was using the Sage Grinder Pro for a while. I do think they vary a little from grinder to grinder, as, unlike as @filthynines, I was on 6 on the upper burr (in other words I hadn't adjusted it go finer) and I was grinding at somewhere between about 7 and 10, depending on the bean. I suspect that once you get some freshly roasted quality beans, you may find things will change when it comes to the settings you're using on the grinder.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Key to tamping , is keeping it even and flat , and doing it the same amount each time ( roughly ) Personally i wouldnt aim to tamp the bejesus out of it as its just not good for your wrist. Tamp until you can feel the coffee isnt comrpessing anymore ( you will get the hang of this ) . You shouldn't be having to strain hard to achieve this.


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## Slates71 (Jul 9, 2017)

OK guys.... I've tried beans from Has Bean just.... Still not good news but I've done 2 different grinds. Now before I go into detail these beans were roasted on 31st March (yes I sat with them too long with my old naff machine!!)

Test 1 - Grinding 18grm on 2 shot setting at grind 8 and got approx that much out. I tampered in the normal way and attempted the extraction in the DTP. The machine again took probably 20 secs to start dripping and only a drop at a time. The machine then stopped and the power button flashed. I'm guessing the portafilter overflowered maybe? Anyway, I turned the dial to the central position for a few secs then back to espresso position. It then began to flow OK. Anyway making an Americano the flavour was far superior to Lavazza and v nice but obviously I didn't do it correctly.

Test 2 - Same as above but grind setting 14 and I didn't tamper as strong. The result was a good flow of coffee after approx 8 secs or so (I didn't time this)....

Conclusion?? Is it down to the fact that these beans are too old and the older the bean the coarser the grind needs to be? These 2 tests suggest this? I read on here people generally grind under 8.....way off my settings.

Sorry for going on but im interested in your opinions and please be critical...I need to learn!

Paul


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Did you weigh the dose in the PF as 18.0g?

What did the shot ground at 14 taste like? What was the weight in the cup?

Don't try to steer the shot by changing tamp force.

We need to know...

Grinder setting

Coffee dose weight in PF to 0.1g

Weight in cup to 0.5g

Time the shot took from pump start to pump stop (not until desired weight is hit).

Make a few shots at the same settings, to see how consistent you are. If you change things at every shot it's hard to track.

Roasted on 31st March? Probably a bit old now.


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## Slates71 (Jul 9, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Did you weigh the dose in the PF as 18.0g?
> 
> What did the shot ground at 14 taste like? What was the weight in the cup?
> 
> ...


Cricky that's some tough questions..... Grinder settings as stated in my thread test1 at 8 test2 at 14. Burr setting has not been altered. PF was 18gr but I have no scales to weigh at 0.1g (on order with Amazon) weight in cup was 33g. When you say 'pump stop' it's manual and I didn't have scales underneath so was case of pause weigh,carry on until it got to 32gr

Apart from all the intricate detail the key thing for me here was the first test I got very little out the DTP but on the 2nd it flowed OK.... So older beans do I need to go coarse? Obviously going forwards I'll use totally freshly roasted and I'll hopefully notice a big improvement


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Slates71 said:


> Cricky that's some tough questions..... Grinder settings as stated in my thread test1 at 8 test2 at 14. Burr setting has not been altered. PF was 18gr but I have no scales to weigh at 0.1g (on order with Amazon) weight in cup was 33g. When you say 'pump stop' it's manual and I didn't have scales underneath so was case of pause weigh,carry on until it got to 32gr
> 
> Apart from all the intricate detail the key thing for me here was the first test I got very little out the DTP but on the 2nd it flowed OK.... So older beans do I need to go coarse? Obviously going forwards I'll use totally freshly roasted and I'll hopefully notice a big improvement


Yes, we know what you did, I meant going forward.

Scales weighing to 1g aren't going to be accurate enough (+/-6%). Better than nothing until your Amazon scales turn up.

Yes, you stop the pump manually, so you know how long you run the pump for. When you stop the pump it will take a while for the flow into the cup to stop/reach desired weight.

18:33g sounds pretty short. If you're going to dilute as an Americano, you have no need to make your shots that short, running more water through the puck will help get a decent extraction.

You haven't said how shot 2 tasted (weak, strong, sour, sweet, flavour notes as per bag description?). Superior to Lavazza is good, but doesn't tell us much about the process... You haven't mentioned shot (pump) time.

We're not doing experiments in flow, we're making a tasty drink in the most volcanic, technologically reliant, shortest possible time, method. These details are what is necessary to do that & control the outcome. Beans are the ingredient, you are making the drink, whatever beans you use, the tighter your controls, the more consistent the drinks will be, the easier it will then be to steer the result more reliably.


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## Slates71 (Jul 9, 2017)

OK.. My biggest issue at the moment is my scales are too big to place on the DTP to check the extraction weight and time together. The new scales will be here by the end of the week.ill be able to give more detail then..Thanks anyway.In the meantime I'll keep practicing but I need to get some new beans ordered!


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

It's frustrating but you are on the righteous path. You just need a bit of patience at this stage.

The guys are saying get fresh beans because stale beans behave erratically from shot to shot. They also taste bad.

Boots has some good advice about tamping. Decide what tamp pressure you're going to use for evermore. Keep it the same every time. Then you can use grind to manipulate shot speed. You're aiming to eliminate tamping as a variable altogether.

MWJB is similarly offering good advice. Pull three shots with the same settings. That means same dose weight, same grind and same tamp. If they all run at different speeds then you will know you have to build your puck with greater care (distribution) before you can get to tuning grind.

Once you can pour three shots that flow at the same rate you're in the home stretch. At this point all that matters is taste and repeatability.

That's why MWJB is talking about scale accuracy. knowing your dose weight and your drink weight to 0.1g accuracy (brew ratio), and the time it takes to pull the shot (set by the grind) is the key to the kingdom.

Good luck.


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## Slates71 (Jul 9, 2017)

Bit of an update.......

I've changed the grind now to 18 (from 8,14 now 18). Grind time 14 seconds gave me 18gr of coffee. Popped into DTP after tamper (normal tamp for me). I waited approx 13-14secs and then the flow began, finally something positive (from where I was anyway). 25secs later (no weighing during the extraction process until new scales arrive). 25secs gave me 30grm so I was probably 2-6grm short? Anyway the result was a rather bitter Americano. Maybe I need to extract longer,maybe the answer is old beans. One thing for sure the change to 18grind setting certainly helped. A good starting point with these beans but maybe I need to do this again using newly roasted beans.... I have another unopened pack from Hasbean that was roasted 3months ago! Maybe I need to bin them????


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Slates71 said:


> Bit of an update.......
> 
> I've changed the grind now to 18 (from 8,14 now 18). Grind time 14 seconds gave me 18gr of coffee. Popped into DTP after tamper (normal tamp for me). I waited approx 13-14secs and then the flow began, finally something positive (from where I was anyway). 25secs later (no weighing during the extraction process until new scales arrive). 25secs gave me 30grm so I was probably 2-6grm short? Anyway the result was a rather bitter Americano. Maybe I need to extract longer,maybe the answer is old beans. One thing for sure the change to 18grind setting certainly helped. A good starting point with these beans but maybe I need to do this again using newly roasted beans.... I have another unopened pack from Hasbean that was roasted 3months ago! Maybe I need to bin them????


You're probably not going to be able to use a reference grind setting, well not until you have brewed a decent sample size of recently roasted beans (fair bit of work). Grind is something that you will tune to keep a consistent flavour balance, if you keep grind constant you will end up having to change brew ratio all the time.

Why are you still pulling short shots if you are making an Americano?

Why kill the shot at 25sec if it was likely short of the target?


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## Slates71 (Jul 9, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Why are you still pulling short shots if you are making an Americano?
> 
> Why kill the shot at 25sec if it was likely short of the target?


Yes your right I should have continued, I'll have more control when a small set of scales arrive in a few days so I can finally measure the weight during extraction.

Regarding the short shots I always assumed that weather you are making a Cappuccino,latte or Americano you always attempt to pull a 36gram shot then add milk or water if required..... Assume that this is not the case?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Slates71 said:


> Yes your right I should have continued, I'll have more control when a small set of scales arrive in a few days so I can finally measure the weight during extraction.
> 
> Regarding the short shots I always assumed that weather you are making a Cappuccino,latte or Americano you always attempt to pull a 36gram shot then add milk or water if required..... Assume that this is not the case?


If you can extract sweet, balanced shots at 18:36g, then carry on. A lot of people however will struggle to do this. As you are going to drink the shot in a longer diluted drink, you may as well pull the shot longer in the hope of balancing out the taste, the strength of the shot will be lower, but that doesn't seem to be a priority for you.

If you are pulling shots for people with a preference for stronger shots, or to prevent the shot being overwhelmed in milk & to provide a consistent base for all drinks, then it's more important to make sure they conform to the highest common denominator.

Brew ratio predominantly sets strength, not flavour balance...you can under extract at 1:2 or at 1:20 if you try hard enough


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