# Beginner, ish! Looking to understand limits of current equipment.



## DocTrucker (May 24, 2016)

Afternoon all.

I've had a Delongi espresso machine for over 5 years now. I've been picking up odd bits of advise from various places (probably this site too) and am now making a concious effort to improve consistency.

I realise this machine is not the best, but would like to know at what point I am likely to be limited by it? As my user name suggests I've other things to loose money on and don't want to start chasing new/better second hand machines before I'm sure my skills have reached the limit that the equipment will support. I'm only interested in Americanos and Espressos.

I know the heating isn't as consistent as some more expensive machines, and the vibratory pump sounds like it is oscillating a bit on the finer or perhaps over-tamped grinds.

Please feel free to point me towards essential reading threads, etc!

So far:

* Learnt very quickly that your not supposed to extract cup fulls! :-D

* The machine also benefits from being on for half an hour or so before I make a coffee.

* Replaced blade grinder with MC2 auto grinder.

* Swapped to Happy Donkey's Italian roast.

* De-pressurised portafilla.

* Adjusting grind by half turns on the MC5 after each extract to target 30 second extracts.

Current mistakes:

* I thought a double basket would be enough to extract two 30ml shots in 30 seconds. Tried finer grinds for 45-60 second extract but now realise that the 14g of coffee is really only enough for one 30ml shot, extracted in around 30 seconds. It should also be weighed, rather than relying on the volumetric measures on the shot glasses. I weighed the last one and I was extracting around 68g of espresso from 14g in around 45-50 seconds.

* My tamping isn't consistent. I've seen 'pressures' of 30lbs mentioned. I'm currently reading through threads up to figure out if they mean pressure, or they apply a force equal to 30lbs of weight to their tamper. Assuming the latter this is 13.6kg of weight, not insignificant and more than enough to pick up my espresso machine via it's built on tamper!

Changes coming soon:

* Will aim for 30g shots from 14g of grind in 30 seconds. Have small scales on order.

* Will try the moving a wire/paper clip through the grounds to improve distribution.

* Investigating 53mm tampers.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Some reading for you ......if you havent already

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios

There are other roasters out there that would be worth investigating tbh .....

Where do you feel your coffee is lacking in taste at the moment ..


----------



## DocTrucker (May 24, 2016)

Some are good, others are lacking! Trying to get things consistent at the moment, and developing my eye/taste/smell for understand what the signs are for over/under extracted, over/under tamped, wrong temperatures, etc.

Just placed an order for a clicking tamping mat that should help resolve variance there.

Will have a look through your thread and through this site for reviews of other bean roasters.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok - so try and think of the balance in terms of taste , as opposed to under and over extracted if that helps

Do they have sweetness - or lack it - or overly bitter ?

How is the strength of the shot ? Weak ? Strong > Watery

Is the taste ball park to the roaster provides ...

Scales and weighing ( noting taste and time ) then gives you some info to base adjustments on


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I would second Boots on trying some other coffees. I found the HD Italian to be a bit dark for my liking (though I've enjoyed some of the DSOL beans).

I reckon a proper tamper would help. You don't have to apply this mythical 30lb force to it - as long as whatever you do is consistent and flat. Some people swear by very light tamping, but there is also the school of thought that says if you apply a firm tamp, and reach the point where further compressing is difficult, that in itself aids consistency. Using the built-in plastic tamper, as you rightly say, will tilt your fairly light machine up if you try to exert too much force, which will totally mess up the coffee bed. Are you using 'widget' baskets or unpressurised?


----------



## DocTrucker (May 24, 2016)

Ok, so from the recommended thread:



Mrboots2u said:


> Part 3
> 
> ...a brew ratio of
> 
> ...


I'll have a crack at this. I could only fit 12g of coffee in the basket this morning. This give me 35g in 24seconds. This was in a 1:1 Black Americano and lacked punch, but did taste less bitter than some of my recent extracts.

I'd expect to be able to fit slightly more in with a finer grind. I'll aim for consistently hitting stronger end of normal espresso and once I'm happy I'm able to follow a recipe then tweak for taste.

Regards tamping I'm sure I read somewhere a dark creme is a sign of over tamped, or is it all down to taste and personal preference? Would the recipe versions of the Ristretto, Normale, and Lungo prescribe a light Creme?

Other than perhaps not being able to fit much more coffee in my 'double' basket are there any other limitations of my equipment that I should be aware of and how to recognise them in my coffee? I want to make sure that I'm not blaming my lack of skills for a variance that may be more down to my equipment. For instance with the grinder setting left alone what sort of variation on draw time and output would be considered normal?

Other than independents which well known coffee shops are considered closest to the brewing techniques advocated on here?


----------



## DocTrucker (May 24, 2016)

hotmetal said:


> Are you using 'widget' baskets or unpressurised?


Sorry forgot to answer your question! I've modified my baskets and they are now unpressurised. Before the modification the machine just blocked with shop bought espresso grind (bought as a test).


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Just to pick up on your point about grinder settings and variance, you will get considerable variance even if you don't touch the grinder. When I started off I had a Delonghi and an MC2. I used an unpressurised basket that I had left over from an old Krups machine. The MC2 does 'drift' a bit, despite its fine adjustment mech. But anyway, all grinders can need tweaking due to humidity and beans aging, less weight in the hopper etc, so if your shot runs faster sometimes, it's not necessarily down to your tamping etc, it's unavoidable to some extent. But it shouldn't swing wildly between way too fast and way too slow - it should still remain between 20-30 seconds in my (limited) experience.

How have you modded a pressurised basket to be unpressurised? I didn't think that was possible, but I suppose it depends on the basket design. If I had removed the plastic widget from my old Delonghi basket, I'd have been left with a big hole in the bottom!


----------



## DocTrucker (May 24, 2016)

Much like this person has:






I haven't taken the bottom off the portafilla yet. Not sure how much you'd gain as the coffee still has to flow through the plastic thing.


----------



## Mad Wally (Feb 24, 2016)

You're on the right track however you will run into the limitations of your machine being no temperature control and poor temperature stability (should be 92-94°C) and probably a brew pressure that is much too high (should be 8-9 bar). Also how clean is the machine? Does it have a 3-way valve? Can it be back-flushed?


----------



## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

DocTrucker said:


> Trying to get things consistent at the moment, wrong temperatures, etc.





DocTrucker said:


> I know the heating isn't as consistent as some more expensive machines


Are you always pulling the shot at a certain point in the heating cycle ?

Do you watch the heating element light and time your shot to that ?

are you temp surfing at all ?


----------



## DocTrucker (May 24, 2016)

I'll do a few searches on the forum to understand what you mean by temp surfing! I always make sure I start the shot while the light is on, and if I don't get bored of waiting I'll start it just as the light goes on, although I guess this would leave the water at it's hottest.

So compared to an Espresso from a major coffee chain it's bitter.

Just an idiot check here... Am I understanding this right that the general guide is to pull a single shot from a double basket in about 24 seconds? Is the timing from the start of the pumping or until after the first drop? Likewise do you end the timing when you stop pumping of hit your target shot weight?

I'm currently expecting to find out my grind is too fine and need to back it off and aim for a shorter shot draw time. Probably due to the 15bar pressure advertised on for the Delonghi ec710s! I think I can hack the latter later with a over pressure valve from another machine at a later date. I currently stop pumping at 15g and the shot size will rise up to 28. I also struggle to fit 14g of coffee in the basket without it touching the outlet. I've got another basket on order that shoul allow me more room and should let me run a bottomless portafilter.


----------



## DocTrucker (May 24, 2016)

DocTrucker said:


> Just an idiot check here... Am I understanding this right that the general guide is to pull a single shot from a double basket in about 24 seconds? Is the timing from the start of the pumping or until after the first drop? Likewise do you end the timing when you stop pumping of hit your target shot weight?


Ok found time is pump time and weight is of total output rather than say one of two shot glasses.

I guess the baskets on commercial machines are much larger?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DocTrucker said:


> Ok found time is pump time and weight is of total output rather than say one of two shot glasses.
> 
> I guess the baskets on commercial machines are much larger?


Bigger than ? Baksets come in different dose sizes . Vst for example 15 g - 18g 20g -22g . Really what your doing to some degree by choosing a larger dose and sticking to a brew ratio is choosing to make " more espresso "


----------



## nightslayer (May 29, 2016)

My two cents for what it's worth - I came from a DeLonghi myself so I can tell you that getting a regular basket (~18g) and a proper tamper were the best things that happened to me before I changed out my lousy Krups grinder. Before that I just got channeling all over the place - the rubber in the basket (I assume the EC710 has the same portafilter, and that you've depressurized it by removing the spring thing in the plastic disc) and the irregular size really doesn't help an even extraction. The pressure isn't usually 15 bars I think, somewhere closer to 12 or so, at least for my machine. I could get a 25 second shot with a proper brew ratio on the DeLonghi so just work with the pressure it's now got and find a grind size and dose that works for you. And yup I could never get more than 14g or so in the DeLonghi basket either.


----------



## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

DocTrucker said:


> I always make sure I start the shot while the light is on, and if I don't get bored of waiting *I'll start it just as the light goes on,* although I guess this would leave the water at it's hottest.
> 
> So compared to an Espresso from a major coffee chain it's bitter.


Thats when I start my shot, just as the light has come on, and you are correct, that will mean the machine is at its hottest.


----------

