# Sage DB and Niche grinder - owner experiences



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I have a sage db and niche setup now - very happy.

Only had the db a few days though and now in the middle of the dosing conundrum I can see other owners have had.

No matter how fine I grind on the niche - if I only put 18g in the stock sage double basket then it pours too fast and doesn't get up to full brew pressure.

I put 20.5g in today and poured lovely - in fact had the best flat white I've ever made myself.... not bad after 3 days.

But 20/21 is too much for me usually - in fact I'd prefer around 16g though would be happy with 18 as I'm used to from my previous e61 hx.

I know @dfk41 mentioned that with a good grinder it's possible to dose quite a bit less than 20g in the sage double basket - though my experiences don't match this.

VST is an option for me though I'd prefer not to - I want to keep things as stock as possible.

Was wondering if there's many other db and niche users that could advise me?


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## Amvantage (Jun 20, 2018)

Sorry to hijack the thread but how do you get 20.5 in the stock basket? I've got the DB myself and only manage to get 18g in the basket although this does fall well short of the top and has never reached the shower screen yet. I'm looking to fit more in a basket but can't do it and maintain level surface to tamp.


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

kennyboy993 said:


> I have a sage db and niche setup now - very happy.
> 
> Only had the db a few days though and now in the middle of the dosing conundrum I can see other owners have had.
> 
> No matter how fine I grind on the niche - if I only put 18g in the stock sage double basket then it pours too fast and doesn't get up to full brew pressure.


Simply grind finer unless you are at the burr touching point?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

PaulL said:


> Simply grind finer unless you are at the burr touching point?


It's over extracting Paul.

Do you have a niche with the DB - what do u dose in the stock double?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Amvantage said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread but how do you get 20.5 in the stock basket? I've got the DB myself and only manage to get 18g in the basket although this does fall well short of the top and has never reached the shower screen yet. I'm looking to fit more in a basket but can't do it and maintain level surface to tamp.


Do you mean you can't fit it in without going over the basket edge? You could use a funnel


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## PaulL (May 5, 2014)

I use singles Kenny, circa 11.4g in/out then extract to about 25g in 30s


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

I dose at 20.0g and consistently get excellent results. When I was using the sage grinder and also since I starting using my sette 270. I have tried to use a lower amount but found it more hassle with the puck being overly wet and also sticking to the shower screen. I use mainly darker roast beans but did find when I tried a lighter roasted bean I had to dose at 18g as I couldn't fit anymore in as it was sitting much higher and hitting the shower screen. I also changed to a 18g vst and this basically behaved in the same as the stock basket. It seems that db likes a 20g dose.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Lowest I have managed to go and get good shots is 19g but 20g seems like the sweet spot. As Kenny says, its hard to get the grind right. Its either coming out too fast because the puck doesn't give the resistance necessary or when you grind finer it doesn't come out at all or the puck seems to channel and then you get a rubbish pour.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> I have a sage db and niche setup now - very happy.
> 
> Only had the db a few days though and now in the middle of the dosing conundrum I can see other owners have had.
> 
> ...


Ditch the stock baskets! they are quite good but not as good as vat for a number of reasons. the Niche grinds very fine and fluffy and you need the extra space


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

PaulL said:


> I use singles Kenny, circa 11.4g in/out then extract to about 25g in 30s


Thanks Paul - I'll try that too though for my main drink, an americano, that would be a bit small


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Ditch the stock baskets! they are quite good but not as good as vat for a number of reasons. the Niche grinds very fine and fluffy and you need the extra space


I've read in most places that the stock baskets are of very high quality - and my own experience shows this....... however I can see many have switched to VST, I assumed this was largely due to dosage reasons rather than extraction?

Btw when dosing around 20g I get a slight shower screen imprint on a spent puck - by design?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Looking at post #6 on this:

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/triple-basket-for-breville-bes920xl-dual-boiler-t31480.html

Phil from breville is saying the stock basket on the 920 is pretty much equivalent to the VST 20g

Makes sense why the 20g dose I did today seemed to work so well.

In that case I think I'll take dfk's advice and use my 18g VST.

Though as I mentioned in a previous post - I'll be doing that just because I don't want to dose over 18g, not because I found the sage basket inferior......


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

I still find that with a 18g vst I still need to dose at 20g. From what I remember when I received my vst and compared dimensions to the sage basket there was little if no difference.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Craig-R872 said:


> I still find that with a 18g vst I still need to dose at 20g. From what I remember when I received my vst and compared dimensions to the sage basket there was little if no difference.


Yeah I've just checked - they looked very similar.... sage basket slightly wider perhaps


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

The sage shower screen doesn't protrude into the baskets as much as on an E61 creating more headroom . I've used the sage basket on the E61 and only get 18g in .. On the oracle I got 20 to 22 in ..


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

Hi Kenny,

I've only had the DB for a week and I found the same issue as yourself. Coming from a DTP my grind setting was on 18 for a 35sec extraction and a 18g dose. I left the grind setting the same when getting the DB and it ran through the PF and was like water. I also had to up the dose to 20g to fill the basket properly.

I had to tighten the Niche grind setting from 18 to 11 to get it in the ballpark, then fine tuned from there. I've also since a got a VST basket which I've found helped with the dosage. I'm now on 18g in, 35g out in 28secs and the Niche is on about 11.5 grind setting.


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

I've had the db for a year or so using alongside a mignon and have been dosing at 18-18.5 with the stock basket no problem.

Currently awaiting delivery of the niche (no.1207) so I'm hoping I can find a fine enough setting as I don't want to updose any higher or have to purchase a vst basket.

Then again with 21 or 22g in the basket i may get away with pulling just one shot for our 2 americanos!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> It's over extracting Paul.
> 
> Do you have a niche with the DB - what do u dose in the stock double?


Define over extracting...


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> The sage shower screen doesn't protrude into the baskets as much as on an E61 creating more headroom . I've used the sage basket on the E61 and only get 18g in .. On the oracle I got 20 to 22 in ..


Ah good info - thanks.

Do you think it's ok for screen imprint on the puck after a shot then? I get it when I dose 20g, tastes fine - i assume is just suction from 3 way valve?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Deeez Nuuutz said:


> Hi Kenny,
> 
> I've only had the DB for a week and I found the same issue as yourself. Coming from a DTP my grind setting was on 18 for a 35sec extraction and a 18g dose. I left the grind setting the same when getting the DB and it ran through the PF and was like water. I also had to up the dose to 20g to fill the basket properly.
> 
> I had to tighten the Niche grind setting from 18 to 11 to get it in the ballpark, then fine tuned from there. I've also since a got a VST basket which I've found helped with the dosage. I'm now on 18g in, 35g out in 28secs and the Niche is on about 11.5 grind setting.


Ok thanks Deeez, so you did get there in the end just by tightening a lot more......interesting.

So your shots tasting better on the db than the dtp now?

I think some of my paranoia is because the pressure gauge on the db is at the puck, not the pump which was on my rotary e61. Gives a new level of insight


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Robbo said:


> I've had the db for a year or so using alongside a mignon and have been dosing at 18-18.5 with the stock basket no problem.
> 
> Currently awaiting delivery of the niche (no.1207) so I'm hoping I can find a fine enough setting as I don't want to updose any higher or have to purchase a vst basket.
> 
> Then again with 21 or 22g in the basket i may get away with pulling just one shot for our 2 americanos!


And here's me thinking the db might be forgiving enough to allow me to use vst 15g!

Oh well, back to being even more meticulous with my prep..... coffee gods win again :-(


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> No matter how fine I grind on the niche - if I only put 18g in the stock sage double basket then it pours too fast and doesn't get up to full brew pressure.


This doesn't make sense. If the grinder can't go fine enough to stop the flow then there must surely be an issue with it. Just for fun, I've just dosed 10g in a 20g VST, ground at several notches finer than my usual setting, and just got a few drips (this was using a 68mm conical with the sage DB).


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

GlennV said:


> This doesn't make sense. If the grinder can't go fine enough to stop the flow then there must surely be an issue with it. Just for fun, I've just dosed 10g in a 20g VST, ground at several notches finer than my usual setting, and just got a few drips (this was using a 68mm conical with the sage DB).


Fair play Glenn - I should have said 'I have to tighten the grind on the niche so much more than I needed to for the same dose on my e61 hx..... and I'm worried about tightening any more'


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Niche seems capable of producing a fine grind. This impacts on the time between dropping the lever/pressing the button and the flow starting. I often find that this time difference might be 30 seconds but once the flow starts then it pours perfectly normally and tastes absolutely fine. Forget the rule book and use your intuition!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> The Niche seems capable of producing a fine grind. This impacts on the time between dropping the lever/pressing the button and the flow starting. I often find that this time difference might be 30 seconds but once the flow starts then it pours perfectly normally and tastes absolutely fine. Forget the rule book and use your intuition!


 @dfk41 are you running your DB with the long PI and 6bar low pressure etc?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ATZ said:


> @dfk41 are you running your DB with the long PI and 6bar low pressure etc?


I no longer have one but I did set a long pre infusion and turn the power down to get about 6 bar


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

So the consensus is that around 18g is ok with the stock double basket or the VST 18g - as long as you can grind fine enough.... and clearly the Niche can.

I now understand @dfk41 what your comments on this forum meant when you mentioned that the 20/21g stipulation that comes from sage/breville may well have been purely to overcome the problems with dosing 18g from the sage grinder.

I'll go back to getting around 18g to work - the last piece of the puzzle for me is the increased headspace this would create between shower head and puck....... not something to worry about?


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

The sage DB does like a fine grind, which is a good thing as far as I'm concerned. If you turn off the PI then you should be able to use a coarser grind.

I normally use an 18g VST, but the 15g VST works fine too.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> So the consensus is that around 18g is ok with the stock double basket or the VST 18g - as long as you can grind fine enough.... and clearly the Niche can.
> 
> I now understand @dfk41 what your comments on this forum meant when you mentioned that the 20/21g stipulation that comes from sage/breville may well have been purely to overcome the problems with dosing 18g from the sage grinder.
> 
> I'll go back to getting around 18g to work - the last piece of the puzzle for me is the increased headspace this would create between shower head and puck....... not something to worry about?


thats about right Kenny.....with decaf certainly, Sages answer was to overload the pf and tamp like a good 'un to create a false shot.....I dosed 18gm into the basket on my Mythos when they were here and it poured far better than 21 gm or so as they used no scales using the sage grinder


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I no longer have one but I did set a long pre infusion and turn the power down to get about 6 bar


 @dfk41 are you back to a lever now? Or did you find a more suitable quick warm up machine?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @dfk41 are you back to a lever now? Or did you find a more suitable quick warm up machine?


He just has sleepless nights if he has the same machine for over 6 months....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ATZ said:


> @dfk41 are you back to a lever now? Or did you find a more suitable quick warm up machine?


Nope, I bought an Orchestrale Nota.....industrial hx that is both beautiful and very practical, steams for Italy and needs no cooling flushes


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@kennyboy993 how are you finding the DB in general?

I'm strongly considering one as an interim machine as I just can't afford a spring lever right now.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Nope, I bought an Orchestrale Nota.....industrial hx that is both beautiful and very practical, steams for Italy and needs no cooling flushes


Ah, I remember you having a soft spot for these. They do look incredible.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

ATZ said:


> @kennyboy993 how are you finding the DB in general?
> 
> I'm strongly considering one as an interim machine as I just can't afford a spring lever right now.


Outstanding......

Super fast heat up, all the control you need for different coffees and user friendliness different planet compared to my e61 hx.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Outstanding......
> 
> Super fast heat up, all the control you need for different coffees and user friendliness different planet compared to my e61 hx.


Different planet good?

I have to say for the features they look hard to beat in this price range. Maybe not as "pretty" as an E61 but I'm more interested by what's in the cup and convenience.


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## Deeez Nuuutz (Apr 15, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> Ok thanks Deeez, so you did get there in the end just by tightening a lot more......interesting.
> 
> So your shots tasting better on the db than the dtp now?
> 
> I think some of my paranoia is because the pressure gauge on the db is at the puck, not the pump which was on my rotary e61. Gives a new level of insight


Yeah. Still getting used to it but but I'm definately getting a better ratio of good shots now than I did with the DTP.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

ATZ said:


> Different planet good?
> 
> I have to say for the features they look hard to beat in this price range. Maybe not as "pretty" as an E61 but I'm more interested by what's in the cup and convenience.


Yeah in a good way 

Longevity is the big argument against these though I'm unlikely to want to keep it longer than 3 years anyway.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> Ah good info - thanks.
> 
> Do you think it's ok for screen imprint on the puck after a shot then? I get it when I dose 20g, tastes fine - i assume is just suction from 3 way valve?


Kenny With the oracle using the onboard Grindr factory set I always got a slight imprint .. Using a different grinder for decaf I used the dosing tool to give an idea of fill height in the basket .. The dosing tool was identical height to what the oracle grinder gave me ... if that makes sense ..


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Nice one Nicknak - good to know. Feel like I'm getting this now.

Didn't want to but gonna dump the standard tamper for a 58.4mm next I think.

Maybe @joey24dirt will be able to make me a custom tamper with a magnet in the end one day so I can still keep it in its cubby hole ;-)


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Nice one Nicknak - good to know. Feel like I'm getting this now.
> 
> Didn't want to but gonna dump the standard tamper for a 58.4mm next I think.
> 
> Maybe @joey24dirt will be able to make me a custom tamper with a magnet in the end one day so I can still keep it in its cubby hole ;-)


Better order some magnets


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## AndyJH (Apr 25, 2017)

Bit late on this thread but my experience with the DB is that I now can dose at 18g with the standard basket but have accepted the puck is soggy and sometimes stuck to the screen. I did get frustrated with this for a while and went to 20g dose which improved matters. I have noticed that Foundry Coffee is worse for the wet puck compared to a local bean I sometimes use. Since having the Niche I'm back to dosing at 18g and I have the Niche on about 14 most of the time. This gives me a 18g in, 36-40g out in approx. 35s depending on bean and age.


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm dosing 19,3g in a standard Niche set to between 17 and 18...

Cheers Phil


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