# Spend my money!!



## matt_bott (Apr 24, 2017)

Hi All,

I recently did a barista course with Small Batch in Brighton which was an excellent way to spend some time. I learned to reliably make a decent espresso / flat white. However on going home I cannot make myself a good coffee anymore with my £85 expresso machine! Now I know what a coffee should / could taste like I just cant drink the stuff im making!

Therefore time to upgrade to something a little better.

I was thinking of getting something more like a professional grade but just a single head with steaming wand. Whilst overkill for my needs I figured a higher quality machine would help me to make a better coffee.

I dont want to plumb anything into my kitchen (the wife wont have me drilling holes in the new work tops) so I want something with a tank. I had found a Gaggia TS1 reconditioned on Ebay for £700 which I figured was a good option and looked quite nice. However reading on here the Gaggia classic seems to be favourably reviewed.

Therefore I seek the advice of those with more knowledge - What should I buy?

The TS1 at £700 is top of my budget but I have a decent (i think) grinder already.

What should I buy and if possible send me a link!!

Cheers


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## matt_bott (Apr 24, 2017)

Oh and anything to look for in a used machine?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Grinder ?


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## matt_bott (Apr 24, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Grinder ?


Got a grinder - electric burgh grinder which I think works quite well - I think its the machine which seems to struggle with fine grinds


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

What make and model of grinder?


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## matt_bott (Apr 24, 2017)

lake_m said:


> What make and model of grinder?


Its a Krupps Burr 12 Cup

Is this the point where you tell me that this needs swapping too?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

the machine makes coffee from whatever you out in so the grinder is more important than the machine. The TS1 is a brilliant machine but that one is £350 overpriced


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

matt_bott said:


> Its a Krupps Burr 12 Cup
> 
> Is this the point where you tell me that this needs swapping too?


 yes....the grinder should cost the same or more than the machine


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

matt_bott said:


> Its a Krupps Burr 12 Cup
> 
> Is this the point where you tell me that this needs swapping too?


If you want to replicate the Espresso you experience at Small Batch then yes!, you will definitely need a different grinder. The grinder is equally important, or even more so, than the machine really


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## matt_bott (Apr 24, 2017)

Righto! More shopping required!

Ill go and read up in the grinder section then

So maybe slightly simpler machine then!


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Look at something like a used Mazzer Super Jolly or equivalent to get started - there are some on here for sale and they aren't that expensive. If you want small and good, then it's a bit more difficult.


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## matt_bott (Apr 24, 2017)

ok thanks ill have a look - I need a few more posts to look on the classifieds section but ill get there!

Anywhere else I should be keeping an eye on for used kit


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

to recap, you want to spend circa £700 on a grinder and coffee machine? Something like a Fracino Cherub secondhand with a suitable grinder. Do you have any space restrictions?


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## matt_bott (Apr 24, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> to recap, you want to spend circa £700 on a grinder and coffee machine? Something like a Fracino Cherub secondhand with a suitable grinder. Do you have any space restrictions?


indeed

this seems to be the route!

Space isnt too much of an issue.


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

Good Morning @matt_bott

Have you thought of something like the Rancilio Silvia paired up with a Compak K3 grinder?

Bella Barista (BB) do the package for £750 ish delivered, brand new. With this you would get a warranty (which from BB is a really good, transferable one), and brand new equipment which is always nice. The Silvia is a very good single boiler machine, and although doesn't have many gadgets, with the correct technique will allow you to produce excellent quality espresso!

You would have to do a bit of reading up on temperature surfing on the Silvia and make sure you get familiar with how the machine works, but once you've got this sorted, the reviews I've trawled through on the Silvia suggest the quality in the cup from this machine, with the right grind is superb. When paired with the K3 it will certainly be much better than you would get in any of the chain coffee houses for sure.

As a few have alluded to the grinder is equal to or even possibly more important than the machine, but with a budget of £700 you're a bit limited as to how far you can go. I would say the K3 is a good start and will be much better than what you already have. It has 58mm flat burrs, stepless grind adjustment (important) and you get a spare set at the moment when you purchase from BB. You may or may not get better than this on here second hand (for the same money), but if not I would say for this money this will be a really good little package.

If I was on a budget of £700 ish for new machine and grinder, this is the package I would go for 99%!

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/rancilio-silvia-espresso-machine-grinder-package-deal.html

Cheers

GP


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## matt_bott (Apr 24, 2017)

pedg said:


> Good Morning @matt_bott
> 
> Have you thought of something like the Rancilio Silvia paired up with a Compak K3 grinder?
> 
> ...


This is brilliant - thanks for the link!


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

What about a Mazzer SJ grinder and Gaggia Classic for starters. I'm still using the Mazzer although have moved onto a different machine (Expobar)

You could do with the Rancilio steam wand upgrade (cheap DIY upgrade) if you want good milk texturing.


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Second the Mazzer SJ & Gaggia Classic combo.

I plumped for that and have been very happy with it. Look out for a classic that has had the various recommended mods (OPV, steam wand etc.) and a PID if possible. It makes consistency so much easier.

Do bear in mind that the Gaggia will run out of steam (literally) around the 3rd cup if you're making milky drinks. I may upgrade in the next few months due to this.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Keep the machine and get a second hand Mazzer Major


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

Scotford said:


> Keep the machine and get a second hand Mazzer Major


On an £85 machine a good grinder is unlikely to make that much of a difference, and certainly won't be able to produce espresso like the OP was doing at his Barista course.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Avoid a new Silvia at all costs . Please really , I had an old one . It's not value for money , and with the new shut off after 30 mins it's pointless also.


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## pedg (Apr 11, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Avoid a new Silvia at all costs . Please really , I had an old one . It's not value for money , and with the new shut off after 30 mins it's pointless also.


Can you elaborate on this?

I agree about the shut off after 30 mins, but other than that what else can you get that comes close for £400? What exactly makes it not value for money?

I had a Gaggia and couldn't get on with it at all. Doesn't make it a bad machine, I just couldn't get on with it. I suspect this to be the case here also?

http://www.theedgecoffee.com/rancilio-hsd-silvia-silvia-espresso-machine-review/

http://knowyourgrinder.com/rancilio-silvia-espresso-machine-review/

GP


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

They don't hold their value well. The functionality ( temp surfing ) etc isn't far off a gaggia which can be gotten second hand for a fraction of a price and hold its value when you get bored of temp surfing .

That last review site you linked hardly looks great , the site looks shabby.

Both of them look like they are simply linking to affiliate sellers like Amazon.

The 30 min shut off makes the machine simply pointless as it takes that long to get the group to temp .

What experience of the rancillo have you had that makes you think it's good value.

Save you pound , wait for something good to come up second hand . Or if your that bothered buy a second hand gaggia.

Save the cash and pid it .


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

If u can find a la spaziale Vivaldi mini second hand they are fantastic - but I completely second what everyone else has said.. need to factor in a grinder... the la spaz will make u happy but with a second hand good grinder might slightly stretch the budget


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> They don't hold their value well. The functionality ( temp surfing ) etc isn't far off a gaggia which can be gotten second hand for a fraction of a price and hold its value when you get bored of temp surfing .
> 
> That last review site you linked hardly looks great , the site looks shabby.
> 
> ...


Twinkle twonk @Mrboots2u


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

hi @matt_bott

To echo the above the silvia new with the 30 minute shut off may not make the best use of your budget unless you are very set on having new. To be fair to the silvia, as long as you remember to re fill the boiler after use by running water through the grouphead or wand (as water NOT steam) they are pretty bullet proof and if you are set on a Silvia they do make more sense if second hand than new, however I would probably go for a second hand HX machine with that budget, especially if from the for sale section on here where history / water used will be known (you can take a chance on ebay, however it is a chance and bear in mind what said above about re filling, if not done properly the boiler element burns out!)

I have a V3 that was my first real espresso machine and it is currently with @MrShades assisting with his development of a Silvia PID kit. With a PID fitted they are much more useable but you will still have the inherent issues of smaller boiler, waiting to heat for steam, flushing, then pouring your next coffee, then waiting for steam etc etc this becomes a pain after a while. The boiler on the Silvia is approx. 3x bigger than the Classic but is still only 300ml.

Grinder is key, no doubt, adage of garbage in / garbage out from the hifi world really applies here. Whilst you will get results after a fashion with your current grinder they will disappoint you very quickly and you end up wondering what you have spent all this money on. Second hand really does make sense from forum members as will have been looked after better than most seen on other portals and suggestions above re super jolly / classic would leave you plenty of pennies left over to buy things like scales, jugs, temptags and crucially good fresh beans.

My journey started with a pressurised Krups espresso / filter combi and a Krups GX231 burr grinder.

I then bought the silvia (new, before I joined the forum....) and struggled for about a week to get anything other than a gusher, the grinder couldn't even get close enough (note: choking a machine is not a good measure of how well a grinder works; if you choke the machine you don't get any coffee out, which is the point of the exercise).

A week after the silvia I bought a Rocky doserless and over the next year or so made it stepless. After a while and having now joined the forum (through home roasting) I then bought the Eureka Zenith 65e (new from BB) which opened up the flavours in the cup massively, still using the Silvia. Happy for a while but beginning to get cheesed off with spending ages making milky drinks for guests.

Bought a second hand Mythos (Nov '15), big step up again, still used with the silvia. Now getting really cheesed off with time spent making coffee but by now go the temp surfing bit down pat. Kept the 65e for second beans although in fairness never really used it often, joy to clean both the 65e and mythos though.

Dec 2015 bought Conti 1 group lever from Coffeechap; mythos / conti pairing sublime in the cup

June 2016 added Compak R120 (from a forum member, who had bought it from Coffeechap), whole new level of transparency / flavour in the cup using the Conti

Oct 2016 Conti / 65e sold and replaced with Londinium II using the R120 / Mythos on grind duties. Sublime (yet also ridiculous for the home







)

The point of the above is to give you an idea of the importance of not only the grinder but also to allay and concerns you may have over buying second user especially on here. It is a also a cautionary tale of how to not just fall but throw yourself deep into the rabbit hole (a very understanding wife / partner / sig other definitely a pre requisite and one that accepts a "kitchen corner" in your coffee room is a bonus







Not all equipment has to be "huge", however it does tend to be the case that what is currently available in terms of machine temperature stability and grind consistency do tend to have larger component parts.

Spend wisely now and enjoy your coffee, espresso is potentially the most difficult / expensive drink to get right: the kit you were using on your course, whilst built for speed of use in a commercial environment is also built for quality in the cup and this is not always cheap to achieve, often frustrating but equally rewarding when you get it right. Seek advice by all means but remember no one else has your taste buds so if you can, try before you buy / commit.

Best of luck in journey and look forward to hearing how you get on.

John


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Really enjoyed reading your coffee equipment journey, @johnealey


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Or drink brewed coffee, will cost you a ton less cash spent on gear ,it's less frustrating to make , and you will get more good cups, more often that chasing the espresso Dragon....









There really is more to coffee , really tasting great coffee , than making an espresso that is a base for a milk drink.


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