# Inconsistency/Dialing in help



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Hi!

I recently got a Gaggia Classic (2014) and have a Sage SGP. My first coffee with the Gaggia was a Union Coffee Sumatra dark roast, and I fairly quickly (to my surprise) dialled that in with an 18g dose, 26 second pull time resulting in a 36g yield. This worked very consistently and produced a tasty shot.

I just received a bag of Monmouth Espresso blend, and am having the opposite experience. With 18g in the basket I'm getting very inconsistent yields (I am aiming for 36g, I don't have scales yet that fit under the group so am eyeballing/clock watching then weighing):



34g in 35s


42g in 30s


38g in 30s


46g in 30s


33g in 40s


I've been sure to purge the grinder very liberally (RIP coffee) and am being as consistent as I can be with distribution etc (flattening with palm, tapping on sides and bottom, tamping). Is it possible that the blend 'wants' to have a higher ratio and should I instead be aiming for a 1:2.5/1:3?

Can anyone shed any insight? Would the coffee being a blend make any impact? Was my sumatran success just beginner's luck?

On the plus side the shots I have drank today (too many) have been rather nice, the blend has a rich ripe taste, maybe a little bit of chocolate too.

Thanks in advance!

S


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Different coffees require different grind settings.... Is this what you're having trouble with? Or is it that your shot time is producing different weights at the same grind setting?

Are you weighing your dose on gram accurate scales -- scales that read in 0.00 or 0.0? If you're using ordinary kitchen scales you could be out by half a gram (if they're very accurate) possibly more. If you're keeping your distribution and tamping somewhat consistent this is the only thing that could be making a difference really... Unless the temp of the machine is swinging all over the place maybe.

If the shots are good and taste as expected there isn't an issue...I'd expect all those shot times & weights to be drinkable even of you were to cut them early/late to hit your target 36g. The blend might be better at a higher ratio, it might not, that's for you to decide.


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Different coffees require different grind settings.... Is this what you're having trouble with? Or is it that your shot time is producing different weights at the same grind setting?
> 
> Are you weighing your dose on gram accurate scales -- scales that read in 0.00 or 0.0? If you're using ordinary kitchen scales you could be out by half a gram (if they're very accurate) possibly more. If you're keeping your distribution and tamping somewhat consistent this is the only thing that could be making a difference really... Unless the temp of the machine is swinging all over the place maybe.
> 
> If the shots are good and taste as expected there isn't an issue...I'd expect all those shot times & weights to be drinkable even of you were to cut them early/late to hit your target 36g. The blend might be better at a higher ratio, it might not, that's for you to decide.


 Cheers for the response - I am new to this so there is certainly a fair amount of ignorance everything I say!

All of those shots were pulled using the same grind setting (8 on SGP if that is at all helpful). I am, shamefully, using kitchen scales to nearest gram. More accurate scales are on the way! I think my distribution and tamping are consistent, but I am so new to this that there may be variance. I temp surf the machine before each shot, but don't have PID.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ok it's probably just dosing weight inconsistency then. I assume you're using the unpressurised baskets?

Were you single dosing the grinder or working your way through an amount you put into the hopper?


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Ok it's probably just dosing weight inconsistency then. I assume you're using the unpressurised baskets?
> 
> Were you single dosing the grinder or working your way through an amount you put into the hopper?


 Yes unpressurised. Working through hopper then weighing. You'd have thought the dosing inconsistencies would have also affected the previous beans, although perhaps it has more impact on a blend rather than SO?


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Update this morning.

1. 18g in 36 out 34s

2. 18g in 36 out 33s

3. 18g in 46 out 33s

Is this just normal inconsistency?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jazzersi said:


> Update this morning.
> 
> 1. 18g in 36 out 34s
> 
> ...


 Not really, you have 10g more in the cup in shot 3, another 3-4g max over 1 & 2 would be better.

How did they compare taste-wise?

Do you definitely have an 18g basket, I thought the Gaggia basket only holds about 16g?


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Not really, you have 10g more in the cup in shot 3, another 3-4g max over 1 & 2 would be better.
> 
> How did they compare taste-wise?
> 
> Do you definitely have an 18g basket, I thought the Gaggia basket only holds about 16g?


 Drank them with milk so didn't notice a huge difference. They were all enjoyable.

I have no idea what size the basket is, I bought the machine second hand. When I get a ratio of 2:1 the puck normally has a small indent from the screw if that is useful. The coffee after tamp comes to the ridge in the basket. I've uploaded pics of the basket of that's useful.

Is this all down to distribution?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jazzersi said:


> Is this all down to distribution?


 To be honest, it's down to you not stopping the pump in time, but if they're all good, enjoy!


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

MWJB said:


> To be honest, it's down to you not stopping the pump in time, but if they're all good, enjoy!


 I'm not sure I understand - if I had stopped the pump 'in time' on the third shot it would have been a lot quicker than the previous two - is that something that is normal in espresso making? Ideally I'd like consistency so searching for that. Sorry if I'm being thick 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

jazzersi said:


> Update this morning.
> 
> 1. 18g in 36 out 34s
> 
> ...


 If you're putting about 55g in the hopper and just grinding through it you'll see the last shot taking more time than the previous two shots.

I guess it's possible the dark roast did this but could have been less noticeable/you just put it down to minor variation.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose/


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> If you're putting about 55g in the hopper and just grinding through it you'll see the last shot taking more time than the previous two shots.
> 
> I guess it's possible the dark roast did this but could have been less noticeable/you just put it down to minor variation.


 Thanks for this, yeah could be. I'm weighing every dose but on kitchen scales so probably not super accurate. Hopefully more consistency will come when more accurate scales arrive.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I meant because the hopper is emptying...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jazzersi said:


> I'm not sure I understand - if I had stopped the pump 'in time' on the third shot it would have been a lot quicker than the previous two - is that something that is normal in espresso making? Ideally I'd like consistency so searching for that. Sorry if I'm being thick 🤦‍♂️


 If you're aiming for 36g out hit that each time (or at least 36-40g). That way you can track the effect of grind setting on flavour balance better.

If the odd shot runs quick & tastes OK, I wouldn't sweat it. If they're the same weight but taste very different, go over your prep.

Beverage mass is the biggest driver of extraction (flavour balance).


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> I meant because the hopper is emptying...


 Sorry to be dense - I assumed you meant that the hopper emptying is causing the grinder to slow down = a smaller dose in fixed time.



MWJB said:


> If you're aiming for 36g out hit that each time (or at least 36-40g). That way you can track the effect of grind setting on flavour balance better.
> 
> If the odd shot runs quick & tastes OK, I wouldn't sweat it. If they're the same weight but taste very different, go over your prep.
> 
> Beverage mass is the biggest driver of extraction (flavour balance).


 Thank you so much. I think I'll stop worrying so much until new scales arrive and I can actually measure the shot as it pours rather than trying to eyeball/guess based on time.


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

jazzersi said:


> Thank you so much. I think I'll stop worrying so much until new scales arrive and I can actually measure the shot as it pours rather than trying to eyeball/guess based on time.


I think it's a good approach till the new scales arrive.

Could be a number of different things but at least with scales you can rule some of these out.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

jazzersi said:


> Sorry to be dense - I assumed you meant that the hopper emptying is causing the grinder to slow down = a smaller dose in fixed time.


 No I meant the weight of beans being fed into the grinder is reducing until there's nothing left pushing the beans down into the grinder, which affects consistency....


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> No I meant the weight of beans being fed into the grinder is reducing until there's nothing left pushing the beans down into the grinder, which affects consistency....


 Ah got you. Perhaps I should keep the hopper at a more consistent level ☺


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

New scales update!

So accurate scales arrived with a timer built in! Pulled a few shots just now to have a better go at dialing in. I started fine and got coarser to try and meet the ratio of 2:1 in around 30s. Every time I used a cocktail stick to mix the grinds in the portafilter and think I had a pretty good distribution each time. Only thing I did not account for was the hopper - it started around a third full and ended up practically empty.

All dosed at 17g aiming for 34g

1. Grind setting '5'
35.4g out in 57s - a little bitterness at the end of the mouthful but lots of flavour and a little sweetness

2. Grind setting '7'
33g out in 42s - pretty delightful shot, less bitterness and a touch of acidity

3. Grind setting '8'
35.3g out in 33s - This shot was a little to acidic for me, but was the closest to target ratio in target time so I persisted with the same grind setting for next few shots to check consistency.

4. Grind setting '8'
39g out in 30s - not particularly nice to drink, too sour

5. Grind setting '8'
38g out in 20s - undrinkable, the coffee was gushing out.

Why are my shots getting faster and faster? I was purging for about 6 seconds when changing grind setting. Only thing I can think of is that it requires much more of a purge and that I was only getting a true '8' by the third shot I pulled and pull 3/4 were a mix of the finer grind settings and coarser. Does anyone have any experience of this with SGP? Could it be the hopper?

Edit: Just did another at grind 6 having emptied hopper and run the grinder until empty. 36g in 22s. How is this possible - I'm going mad!


----------



## JPChess (Feb 15, 2019)

jazzersi said:


> I started fine and got coarser to try and meet the ratio of 2:1 in around
> 
> Why are my shots getting faster and faster?


 As we increase the grind size, the less resistance the water has to pass through the puck.

I suspect you will require to fully purge the grinder before an accurate next shot can be made.

One thing I did was to empty the grinder completely. Grind very coarse then grind very fine and see how long it takes for my grinder push out the very fine grinds. This will give an idea of retention and the time required to push old grind setting out (extreme case)



jazzersi said:


> 35.4g out in 57s - a little bitterness at the end of the mouthful but lots of flavour and a little sweetness
> 
> 2. Grind setting '7'
> 33g out in 42s - pretty delightful shot, less bitterness and a touch of acidity
> ...


 If number 2. was a pretty delightful shot, stay around that grind setting. 
Looking for a little coarser if possible if not try a couple of things:

Increase brew temp.
Increased dose in basket.

See how that affects the shot.

In reality its coffee, that we drink due to taste. 
If you found a setting that gives 33g out in 42 seconds and tastes great. Stop.
No-one will come around and judge you for not pulling in 30 seconds. 
Enjoy =D

--------

Added after edit:

Grind setting is one of the most constant things we can alter, also have a look at tamping level, pressure, distribution etc. 
I have done it myself, dialed in the bean then fudges up my tamp and hope that the coffee will be just fine (it was not =D)


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

JPChess said:


> As we increase the grind size, the less resistance the water has to pass through the puck.
> 
> I suspect you will require to fully purge the grinder before an accurate next shot can be made.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for this - you are right none of it really matters if coffee tastes good. My frustration is that the shots seem to be speeding up despite grind being the same.

I think my distribution and tamp are fine, but after every shot there is an indent running around the end of the puck. I think this is just from it swelling and touching the edge of the grouphead.

Unfortunately I have no control over temp as I don't have a PID installed.


----------



## JPChess (Feb 15, 2019)

jazzersi said:


> I think my distribution and tamp are fine, but after every shot there is an indent running around the end of the puck. I think this is just from it swelling and touching the edge of the grouphead.


 Are you dosing correctly for your basket? 
Fill the basket, level and tamp then place a penny on-top.
Insert portafilter into the machine them remove it.
There should be no indent in the puck.

If not then revert back to your nice tasting setting and Enjoy.


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

JPChess said:


> Are you dosing correctly for your basket?
> Fill the basket, level and tamp then place a penny on-top.
> Insert portafilter into the machine them remove it.
> There should be no indent in the puck.
> ...


 Will try this next time I brew. I just went back to grind setting 7 (the tasty setting) and got 42g out in 26s and it was not nearly as tasty  Seems complete pot luck what I will get out irregardless of grind setting or anything else.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

jazzersi said:


> New scales update!
> 
> So accurate scales arrived with a timer built in! Pulled a few shots just now to have a better go at dialing in. I started fine and got coarser to try and meet the ratio of 2:1 in around 30s. Every time I used a cocktail stick to mix the grinds in the portafilter and think I had a pretty good distribution each time. Only thing I did not account for was the hopper - it started around a third full and ended up practically empty.
> 
> ...


 I have quite literally explained this to you already. Your last reply to me was this:



> Ah got you. Perhaps I should keep the hopper at a more consistent level


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> I have quite literally explained this to you already. Your last reply to me was this:


 Yeah I know - but short of weighing out 17g of beans and refilling after every shot I don't see how that is really practical. My last shot was with hopper full again though and still got dramatically different results.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

jazzersi said:


> All dosed at 17g aiming for 34g
> 
> 1. Grind setting '5'
> 35.4g out in 57s - a little bitterness at the end of the mouthful but lots of flavour and a little sweetness
> ...


 And I don't get what you're trying to achieve. You get a "delightful" shot and then go coarser? Why? You get your target concentration and are happy with the taste then decide to extract less? The result is something you aren't happy with but you want to recreate it?!


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> And I don't get what you're trying to achieve. You get a "delightful" shot and then go coarser? Why? You get your target concentration and are happy with the taste then decide to extract less? The result is something you aren't happy with but you want to recreate it?!


 Just because I thought it was supposed to be within 25-35 seconds, that's all.

Edit: I am trying to achieve consistency so I can get a nice shot every time not 1 in 5 haha


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jazzersi said:


> Just because I thought it was supposed to be within 25-35 seconds, that's all.
> 
> Edit: I am trying to achieve consistency so I can get a nice shot every time not 1 in 5 haha


 Grind setting drives extraction/flavour balance, so if "7" gives you a delightful shot, stay there & make sure your distribution & output stay consistent. Time might wander a little & that's fine...consistency of time is not 'consistency'.

Your shot could be a shade under 20s, or over 50s & still taste good, depending on the parameters & ratio.


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Grind setting drives extraction/flavour balance, so if "7" gives you a delightful shot, stay there & make sure your distribution & output stay consistent. Time might wander a little & that's fine...consistency of time is not 'consistency'.
> 
> Your shot could be a shade under 20s, or over 50s & still taste good, depending on the parameters & ratio.


 Thanks. I'll play more tomorrow and see what I get. Also maybe am still overdosing the basket, so may try going down to 14g too.

Thanks for everyone's patience 🙌


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jazzersi said:


> Thanks. I'll play more tomorrow and see what I get. Also maybe am still overdosing the basket, so may try going down to 14g too.
> 
> Thanks for everyone's patience 🙌


 17g to 14g is a big jump, why not try a more incremental adjustment, like 16g?


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

MWJB said:


> 17g to 14g is a big jump, why not try a more incremental adjustment, like 16g?


 Yeah will be incremental ☺


----------



## jazzersi (Apr 17, 2020)

Dosing down to 16g has made a WORLD of difference - four shots pulled today with hopper kept around the same level and grind on "7":



35.6g in 28s


34.7g in 30s


36g in 25s


36g in 27s


All the shots have been tasty - I'd like to try and extract a little more sweetness but am extremely happy to have a consistent base level to work from for the rest of the bag of this roast. Thank you so much everyone for your patience and advice 🙌 @MWJB @Rob1 @JPChess @Cuprajake @urbanbumpkin it is very much appreciated


----------

