# Kruve/Rafino now shipping....



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Just had an email to say they are now shipping and should be getting a tacking number sometime soon..


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

A million THANK YOU's to our backers for all of your support. Thank you for your patience and sticking with us throughout the tougher times. Thank you for providing us with great ideas and wonderful feedback. Thank you for trusting in our idea and trusting in our team.

We are truly fortunate to have so many wonderful supporters. Likewise, we are also proud to have supported other crowdfunding projects, baristas, coffee shop owners, and coffee lovers, not to mention a ton of design and tech folks as well. We were fortunate to have barista champions win using our product. Most importantly, we have also made new friends around the globe and have also grown closer as a team.

In regards to next steps, please keep an eye on your email inbox. You should receive your tracking number sometime over the next few days. Huge thank you once again. The work is not done on our end. There is still lots of work left to do in the short term and in the long term, we look forward to creating more innovative products that make your coffee taste better!

Cheers to you!!!

KRUVE Team


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I've almost forgotten why I'm getting these - they've certainly had their ups and downs and it's good that they've seen that all through and are now sending them out.


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Good to see there on there way, not order myself but tried a home made version for bulk grinder, under 10 times magnification, (frightening amount of rocks) 2gm from 16gm espresso grind,

be prepared


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

\ said:


> Good to see there on there way, not order myself but tried a home made version for bulk grinder, under 10 times magnification, (frightening amount of rocks) 2gm from 16gm espresso grind,
> 
> be prepared


How are you determining what are "rocks"?


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

MWJB said:


> How are you determining what are "rocks"?


Well after sieving 16gm espresso grind what does not go through sieve is my rocks which is 2gms, what i find amazing is the 14gms extraction on lever has the same strength as 16gms un-sieved and sweeter.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

@Rhys or others, did you get a tracking number?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> @Rhys or others, did you get a tracking number?


I haven't


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

Nope, no tracking number either. Apparently all have been shipped from Hong Kong with a 7-14 day estimate.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Nope, not yet.. still waiting


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## AliG (Aug 12, 2015)

Me neither.


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

Just received tracking number: looks like it's just leaving Singapore.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

Same here. Swisspost seem to be pretty efficient from previous experience. Hopefully shouldnt take too long.

Want toy! Want toy NOW!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tracking number received


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I've also received a tracking number, good times.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

And another one here ??


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Me too


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Has anyone come across any good reports from early users of the Kruve. I'm dying to know how much difference it's really making, and whether it could really be useful for espresso as well as filter/immersion methods.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I've heard so little about it and its taken such a while coming that I seem to have sub-consciously written it off as a turkey. Hope I'm wrong as I bought one!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fluffles said:


> I've heard so little about it and its taken such a while coming that I seem to have sub-consciously written it off as a turkey. Hope I'm wrong as I bought one!


It's been quicker than another Kickstarter I was involved in, some get funded then disappear altogether.

I haven't got mine yet, but I do wonder, in what respect could a sieve fail to work? My other sieves are a foot across and a total faff, so looking forward to something more kitchen friendly.


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

MWJB said:


> It's been quicker than another Kickstarter I was involved in, some get funded then disappear altogether.
> 
> I haven't got mine yet, but I do wonder, in what respect could a sieve fail to work? My other sieves are a foot across and a total faff, so looking forward to something more kitchen friendly.


I've not tried sieving before, and I was wondering whether sieving would lead to a big step-up in flavour, or whether the Kruve would just be another gadget that I pay with for a few weeks and then leave to gather dust.

Do you sieve regularly then? Worth all the current faff you go through then?

For the record, I'd be looking to try it out for V60 and Kalita Wave pourovers, and maybe for espresso too.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I used to sieve daily, big Sowden immersion brews, remove the biggest 15% of the grind, it certainly made for a sweeter cup.

I mostly use 1 sieve at a time to work out what my average grind size is, for reference. Not for changing the grind profile...this is perhaps the most useful aspect to me.

Not sure I'd regularly do it on a daily basis for drip brews, though you may as well do something whilst the kettle boils (like I did with the Sowden).

It's already been shown to work as a principle.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Left Singapore by the looks (just checked the tracking thingy..)

Made a French Press today (grind setting 8 on the Major - 2 is around espresso) and it was a bit muddy.. Looking forward to trying it out when it arrives.


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## Hairy_Hogg (Jul 23, 2015)

These look really interesting, will be watching the for sale section with interest for the first one to go up because the buyer thinks it is too much faff...


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

New Kruve website launched that includes videos on how to use their sifter for different brew methods.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Mine just landed!





































Was shipped on 19th January 2017.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Hmm - haven't received any info on mine as yet.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

Mine is here too.

No time to play with it yet, maybe later on today.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I've had the tracking email - and mine in currently at LHR.

Did anyone have customs/duty issues or charges?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

No charges here and judging by the stated amount of $40 U.S. can't imagine anyone would get stung with customs and import taxes?


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Mine says it's still in Transit... I can't check as it's being delivered to my old corner shop as I moved since then. Think I'll give them a ring to check....


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## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

Just got my package delivered - no charges. Now it's time to open - can't remember what I ordered!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I went for the Barista Ultimate version which was the top model with most amount of sieves (11). Then they offered another upgrade a few months back for a very nominal price ($3.80) to add one more sieve. Opted for that also. This was renamed, appropriately, Kruve Sifter Twelve.

In for a penny, in for a pound and all that...


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

DoubleShot said:


> I went for the Barista version, I think it was called which was the top model with most amount of sieves. Then they offered another upgrade a few months back for a very nominal price to add a couple more sieves. Opted for that also.
> 
> In for a penny, in for a pound and all that...


That's the one I ordered... Just had a muddy French Press... Itching now...


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

@MWJB

Did you order one of these, if so, can't wait to hear your expert opinion as you've been using micro sieves for quite a while?


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## Bogwoppit (Sep 26, 2013)

Still awaiting mine to be delivered. Was shipped on 23rd, but last tracking was also on 23rd, Hong Kong "consignment has left the origin boarder point". Not sure if I should be worried about the lack of change in status for a week. I also went all in on the original barista package, then also the additional upgrades for a couple of extra £. I too am drinking mostly FP at the moment, like the oils but less sediment would be nice. Really excited to give it bash.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> @MWJB
> 
> Did you order one of these, if so, can't wait to hear your expert opinion as you've been using micro sieves for quite a while?


Yes & mine arrived this morning.

Might be a few days before I actually remove part of the grind, anticipate using them more for calibration.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

It's a well made thing. Packaging is well though out too. The red is really nice too.









Still not used it.

Had a brief attempt at putting the stand together.... No dice. Will have another attempt later, although it did come with the 400 and 800 filters installed which are the ones I'm most likely to use anyway, so...


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Mine has just arrived too - also in red. Barista option, can't remember what that was though - about a dozen sieves.

Very little in the way of instuctions (like how to remove the sieves and insert them, properly and without damage) - but have slapped a 250 and 600 in, and sieved an espresso dose out of my E37s for fun. A smudge of fines (


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MrShades said:


> Mine has just arrived too - also in red. Barista option, can't remember what that was though - about a dozen sieves.
> 
> Very little in the way of instuctions (like how to remove the sieves and insert them, properly and without damage) - but have slapped a 250 and 600 in, and sieved an espresso dose out of my E37s for fun. A smudge of fines (
> 
> ...


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

MWJB said:


> They have video guides & FAQ at their website.
> 
> Your fines will be way smaller than 250um. 250um & 500um might be a better match?


Ah yes - just found them. Good videos... and I'd worked out the installation routine by fiddling anyway, but good to see.

Will try some 200um (want a 100um or 150um really) and 500um sieves and may even try extracting some espresso this time.... ;-) Will dig the V60 and Aeropress out and fiddle with them too.

Anyway, all very nicely made - packaging included - and seems pretty good all-in-all. The Kickstarter delivered about 6 months later than expected, but at least it delivered - which is better than some I've backed.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Not sure I'd be looking to reduce the smaller particles in espresso, historically sieving has been problematic when you much under 200/250um.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Flibster said:


> Had a brief attempt at putting the stand together.... No dice.


Know where you're coming from as it felt as though it would break before snapping together.

Guess this is why they posted a stand assembly video on youtube a while back?!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

@MWJB

Would you change any of the suggested sieve sizes for the various brew methods compared to those in the accompanying leaflet/owners manual?

They do say use them as a starting point.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> @MWJB
> 
> Would you change any of the suggested sieve sizes for the various brew methods compared to those in the accompanying leaflet/owners manual?
> 
> They do say use them as a starting point.


Yes, but only if I knew what I was specifically trying to achieve, or if I had a recipe that targeted a very different grind size than they anticipate. For instance, I'm currently brewing with a Kalita Caffe Uno, it's tiny, so you have to do lots of small pours, 65% of my grind is larger than 800um...so for refining my grind for this scenario, I'd be looking at more like 1200 & 600um sieves (as my grind is probably centred around 850-900um).

That's one of the things I see as being most useful, you have some tangible parameters for targeting grind size.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

__
http://instagr.am/p/BP7E75og2nl/

its here!!


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## Bogwoppit (Sep 26, 2013)

Out of interest, how long do they seem to be taking between initial tracking email, and U.K. Delivery? Still no change in status of mine. Has left HK on 23rd but then no further updates. Wondering if I should worry yet.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

As I hadn't received confirmatory email from Kruve saying my order was on its way, emailed them to ask why I haven't heard from them.

Got a quick response - apparently I hadn't responded to an email asking me to confirm colour choice. Is that what everyone else received? Guess my spam blocker must have binned the email.

Thanks to the heads up from others who've got tracking details alerting me to the fact my order had fallen off the radar, I'm back on track.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

Bogwoppit said:


> Out of interest, how long do they seem to be taking between initial tracking email, and U.K. Delivery? Still no change in status of mine. Has left HK on 23rd but then no further updates. Wondering if I should worry yet.


Same here. Received info that mine also left HK 23rd Jan for the UK but no further updates on the shippers website.


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## Bogwoppit (Sep 26, 2013)

MikeBookham said:


> Same here. Received info that mine also left HK 23rd Jan for the UK but no further updates on the shippers website.


Well talk about the devil! It's now arrived at destination border! Bit less worried now.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

Bogwoppit said:


> Well talk about the devil! It's now arrived at destination border! Bit less worried now.


Snap!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Still no sign of mine - I got tracking details email which has said "in transit" since 23rd Jan. It's not updated since??? Seems to be the same as @Bogwoppit

Can everyone not tell me how good it is until mine arrives - not fair ?


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Just got this email - oops ?

Hello,

If you have received this email, it is because you have*purchased the*Barista*model.

We wanted to let you know that the 300 micron sieve that should have been included with*the Barista*model*was incorrectly left out of our first production run. As a result, that sieve was not manufactured and will not arrive in the box as part of your*order. We have been in contact with our*manufacturer and have started working on producing a new batch of 300 micron*sieves.*This will likely take a few weeks to manufacture and ship to your address. We apologize for this mix up and will do our best to get that missing sieve to you as soon as possible.

*

Thank you and our apologies once again.

KRUVE Team

http://www.kruveinc.com


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Daren said:


> Just got this email - oops
> 
> Hello,
> 
> ...


I got this but no shipping confirmation email, so I asked.

Got a quick response with my tracking info showing the unit got to uk at midday today. Guess I'm looking at delivery tomorrow.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Turns out I had ordered the black one (I had genuinely forgotten which colour until the package turned up)


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

just ordered a set of 12


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Dropped by my old corner shop, to a call of "I've got a parcel for you.....!!"










Once I got home it was soon opened....










And quickly assembled..










I opted for the full monty and couldn't wait to try it.

The stand was easy to put together in the end (fit the side bits just into the slots, then put on it's end and tap with something hard - I used the end of a kitchen knife handle as it was to hand..)

Put the sieves in for French Press (very fiddly, too me ages to get them seated properly - but once in they didn't budge). Found my grind was way out. Kept knocking it down wholst adding the 'boulders' ended up with quite a lot in the bottom sieve. I think my Major is producing a lot of fines. Might try the Isomac as it's an on demand and needs a full hopper.

Made a FP with the 15g out of the 23g put in (with about 300g water) and left for 15 mins. Very nice, not crystal clear, but clearer than the mud I was getting before. Will try V60 next..


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

out of interest what's everyone's plan for the fines?

Bolders I assume will get re-ground.


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Users, How's the kruve for static on underside with fines, only on all the stainless steel sieves I've made that was the issue.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

Phobic said:
 

> out of interest what's everyone's plan for the fines?
> 
> Bolders I assume will get re-ground.


When my Kruve arrives, I'm planning to use the fines in homemade granola.


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## Bogwoppit (Sep 26, 2013)

Now that sounds good (recipe please!!).


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I used mine yesterday for French Press and had about 10g of fines. Couldn't use them for anything so had to dump them..









Think I might have to try single dosing vs a weight of beans in the throat just to see if that cuts down the fines. Or just use my little conical and see if that fares better.


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Rhys said:


> I used mine yesterday for French Press and had about 10g of fines. Couldn't use them for anything so had to dump them..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you tried espresso sieve yet, as waiting for users comments.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rhys said:


> I used mine yesterday for French Press and had about 10g of fines. Couldn't use them for anything so had to dump them..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You probably didn't have to dump them. Either way, grind coarser next time. See if you can get around 2/3 of the weight between the sieves.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

\ said:


> Have you tried espresso sieve yet, as waiting for users comments.


No, not yet - just the FP ones. I could give it a go later. I seam to remember Socratic using a 170 sieve for espresso, the lowest in the Kruve range is 200. Think I'll warm the machine up in a bit and give it a go.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

MWJB said:


> You probably didn't have to dump them. Either way, grind coarser next time. See if you can get around 2/3 of the weight between the sieves.


I got quite a lot of 'boulders' so reground them and adjust the grind down a tad each time. It got me worried that my grinder isn't that consistent at courser grinds - especially with the pop-corning with single dosing.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rhys said:


> I got quite a lot of 'boulders' so reground them and adjust the grind down a tad each time. It got me worried that my grinder isn't that consistent at courser grinds - especially with the pop-corning with single dosing.


Your grinder will most likely be more consistent at coarse settings.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

DoubleShot said:


> Know where you're coming from as it felt as though it would break before snapping together.
> 
> Guess this is why they posted a stand assembly video on youtube a while back?!


If only mine was that easy to get together...

Ended up using a jewellers flat file to take a little off the tabs so they'd just fit. Then a small amount of errr... percussive persuasion to get them seated properly.









I'm extremely surprised by how much I've adjusted my grind because of this. I've was using the 400/800 sieves and they weren't letting much through at all. Swapped to 400/1000 and tightened the grind and it's better. Will play a bit more tomorrow and I'll swap to the 400/800 again and see how it gets on.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I'll have to wait until Saturday now - mine are lurking down at the sorting office - in the meantime, I'll learn from this thread.


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## Bogwoppit (Sep 26, 2013)

It's arrived! Just gutted it's 19:30 and I daren't brew a pot now as I'll never be able to sleep tonight (coffee and an ever noisy brain are not a good mix for me this time of night!). Oh well, might still have to have a bit of a play anyway....


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Well, I tried the espresso sieves (250/500) and put some 20g of Barn through it. Used my normal espresso setting on the Major. Most stayed in the top, a little went into the middle and nothing went into the bottom. Ended up turning my grinder as fine as it would go and pouring the whole lot into it. The resulting 'flour' didn't make much difference. I fed more beans in as I'd only collected 14g in the middle. Got enough for a 16g shot and put it in the basket. It did pull in the end, and was drinkable. Decided to try again with some fresher beans (Dear Green decaf) and gave up. The resulting mess I made all over the worktops from feeding course grinds back into my grinder and then the subsequent hoovering afterwards from clogged burrs and coffee grinds everywhere just made me pack it all away. The top tray was nearly full, with just a bit going into the middle. I'm talking about 10 plus steps finer on the adjustment collar!

I'll try it again when I have some more patience, probably with the V60. Didn't want to waste any-more beans faffing around, especially as my #SSSSS arrived today while I was messing around. If others are having more success with the espresso sieve suggestion then I'll just have to put it down to my grinder - but I doubt it. Might just want a bit courser sieve on the top?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I wouldn't try and regrind relatively fine grinds, I think they only specifically suggest regrinding for French press >1000um?

Personally, I'd only use the sieve to remove the largest proportion of the grind (10-15% tops?) for espresso.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

Mine arrived just before I got home tonight at 7:30pm. On opening the outer packaging I was impressed with the quality of the Kruve packaging and the sieve itself. The sieves were easy to remove, though installing them was a little fiddly at first, but I found that placing the holders on a table made it a whole easier.

I've washed everything in case there was any residue from the manufacturing process and I've some decaf beans due to arrive tomorrow, so if all goes to plan I'll be testing tomorrow evening.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

Bogwoppit said:


> Now that sounds good (recipe please!!).


Hear you go, found it now I'm home. It is one of Jamie Oliver's superfood recipes, titled 'EAT MY GRANOLA DUST! | #JamiesSuperFood | Daily Jamie':

http://www.jamieoliver.com/videos/eat-my-granola-dust-jamiessuperfood-daily-jamie/


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Rhys said:


> Well, I tried the espresso sieves (250/500) and put some 20g of Barn through it. Used my normal espresso setting on the Major. Most stayed in the top, a little went into the middle and nothing went into the bottom. Ended up turning my grinder as fine as it would go and pouring the whole lot into it. The resulting 'flour' didn't make much difference. I fed more beans in as I'd only collected 14g in the middle. Got enough for a 16g shot and put it in the basket. It did pull in the end, and was drinkable. Decided to try again with some fresher beans (Dear Green decaf) and gave up. The resulting mess I made all over the worktops from feeding course grinds back into my grinder and then the subsequent hoovering afterwards from clogged burrs and coffee grinds everywhere just made me pack it all away. The top tray was nearly full, with just a bit going into the middle. I'm talking about 10 plus steps finer on the adjustment collar!
> 
> I'll try it again when I have some more patience, probably with the V60. Didn't want to waste any-more beans faffing around, especially as my #SSSSS arrived today while I was messing around. If others are having more success with the espresso sieve suggestion then I'll just have to put it down to my grinder - but I doubt it. Might just want a bit courser sieve on the top?


Sorry mate i fill bad for asking, wasting good coffee, and mess, yes as suggested use top sieve only to remove rocks.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

How many of you ending up paying as much if not more than kruve are now selling the sifter for?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> How many of you ending up paying as much if not more than kruve are now selling the sifter for?


You mean Kickstarter backers? Not me


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## Bogwoppit (Sep 26, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> How many of you ending up paying as much if not more than kruve are now selling the sifter for?


I paid 120CAD for unit w/11 sieves, and an extra 3.80USD for the 1100. Total cost ~£76. They're currently selling the unit with the 12 sieves at 129USD so ~£101, so saved a smidge at ~£25 (was a kickstarter backer).


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## Tufty_B (Nov 24, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> How many of you ending up paying as much if not more than kruve are now selling the sifter for?


I saved a total of $5 for a Kruve with 6 sieves. However annoyingly the sieve set on their website (200, 300, 400, 600, 800, 1000) is a better range then the Indigogo perk (200, 250, 300, 350, 400 and 800).

They did state 'You will also be taking advantage of a special discounted price that you may never see in stores.', so they never said that they wouldn't sell it for less the the crowd source price. It is disappointing though, especially as we the backers made it possible for them to bring it to market, any investor would have expected least a 50% return on any product.


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## Tufty_B (Nov 24, 2014)

MWJB said:


> You mean Kickstarter backers? Not me


When was it on Kickstarter?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Tufty_B said:


> When was it on Kickstarter?


Sorry was it Indiegogo?


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## Tufty_B (Nov 24, 2014)

Tufty_B said:


> I saved a total of $5 for a Kruve with 6 sieves. However annoyingly the sieve set on their website (200, 300, 400, 600, 800, 1000) is a better range then the Indigogo perk (200, 250, 300, 350, 400 and 800).
> 
> They did state 'You will also be taking advantage of a special discounted price that you may never see in stores.', so they never said that they wouldn't sell it for less the the crowd source price. It is disappointing though, especially as we the backers made it possible for them to bring it to market, any investor would have expected least a 50% return on any product.


I have just double checked and they actually stated '20% off Retail', I paid $84 inc delivery and retail is is $89 inc delivery. This only makes it 5% discount & not 20%.


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## Bogwoppit (Sep 26, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Sorry was it Indiegogo?


Started as a kickstarter, got funded and hit some stretch goals which enabled more sieves and stand etc, and then moved to indegogo to take further preproduction orders.


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## Tufty_B (Nov 24, 2014)

Tufty_B said:


> I have just double checked and they actually stated '20% off Retail', I paid $84 inc delivery and retail is is $89 inc delivery. This only makes it 5% discount & not 20%.


I think that this will be the last crowd funded project I'll entertain, I've done 3 on Indiegogo and this is the first to deliver, one other was due Oct 2016 and that won't arrive, it is a dead duck, the other was due Nov 2015 and there is a slim chance that I'll get something but not what was originally quoted. On Kickstarter I have backed 7 projects of 4 have arrived (one a few weeks early, but then it was just a ruler!, one 3 mths late, another about 6 mths late & the worst about 18mths late), 3 are still due, one this month but it is expected to be a few months late and another next month which is supposedly on time, the last is currently 18 mths late and they still post random updates giving us hope that they will deliver something like the original project but I'm not holding out much hope.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

I've backed four. One arrived already, kruve en route now, and another due in July (after some delay). The one that killed me was an obvious fraud. They raised around a quarter of a million and then disappeared. Not even indiegogo can raise get a response. Indiegogo still haven't taken the offering down and just shrug their shoulders when challenged about vetting offers. That's why I stopped investing. I'm cool with business risk but not with fraud. I really think a layer of protection is required for crowd funding to be a sustainable thing.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

Obnic said:


> I've backed four. One arrived already, kruve en route now, and another due in July (after some delay). The one that killed me was an obvious fraud. They raised around a quarter of a million and then disappeared. Not even indiegogo can raise get a response. Indiegogo still haven't taken the offering down and just shrug their shoulders when challenged about vetting offers. That's why I stopped investing. I'm cool with business risk but not with fraud. I really think a layer of protection is required for crowd funding to be a sustainable thing.


Agreed and IG seems to have more scams than KS.

I backed projects for various reasons, some items are so niche that they'd never be viable as a commercial product and I wanted to see the end result, others because I believed in the person and thought that they had a great idea and they deserved funding, the others were because I wanted the product and was willing take a chance on them delivering something at a price that I was happy with.

In the end those that I backed specifically because of the actual person and not the product as such have been the ones that have impressed me the most, both in terms of updates and final delivered item.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

Flibster said:


> I'm extremely surprised by how much I've adjusted my grind because of this. I've was using the 400/800 sieves and they weren't letting much through at all. Swapped to 400/1000 and tightened the grind and it's better. Will play a bit more tomorrow and I'll swap to the 400/800 again and see how it gets on.


Well, did a brew with the 400/800 sieves fitted. 24g coffee and 400g water in a Kalita Wave 185. Overbrewed tbh. Suspect that it's partially due to their recipes for V60 being significantly lower doses, so smaller grind for longer brew time. Mine brewed for 4:45 and wasn't done when I removed it. Wasn't much water left though.

Will try the recommendation they have for Chemex tomorrow - 500/1000 and my normal quantities again.

All a learning process.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MWJB said:


> You mean Kickstarter backers? Not me


Yes I mean the kickstarter backers


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Here are some sifting results from my EK. All grind settings are with the "#" and on the Callum dial. I'm initially targetting use for pour over so I used the suggested 400/800 sieves. Results are listed as bottom/middle/top.

#12 - 18g > 2.5g/4.5g/10.7g

#10 - 18g > 3.1g/6.8g/8.0g

#8 - 18g > 2.6g/9.8g/4.7g

My usual grind setting for pour over is around #11 which typically results in an EY of around 21% (without sifting, obviously).

Not sure what to make of these results, even at really fine settings I'm still getting more in the top sieve (by weight, I realise fines contribute greater surface area).

I thought in theory the EK gives a narrower distribution with a greater leaning towards fines than other grinders?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fluffles said:


> Here are some sifting results from my EK. All grind settings are with the "#" and on the Callum dial. I'm initially targetting use for pour over so I used the suggested 400/800 sieves. Results are listed as bottom/middle/top.
> 
> #12 - 18g > 2.5g/4.5g/10.7g
> 
> ...


OK, I would approach this a little differently, start with the grind setting that works for your EY target, then change the sieves to suit.

Not seen any evidence that EK makes a disproportionate number of smaller particles at brewed settings, it certainly seems to make fewer oversize particles at espresso settings (which is what the distribution charts we have all seen are based on).

But, back to your numbers:

#8: you have 15% below 400um, 57% between 400 & 800, 28% over 800.

This suggests that for a target average between 550&600um (again, if that is what you want for your method & this may be different for V60 & Wave at the same pour regime), you are still set too coarse at #8. I'd expect more like 70% between the sieves, with a bias towards the weight in the pan, over the remainder on the top sieve.

Anyone can use the 400 & 800 set to get a snapshot of their grind, but those sieves only target a narrow range of average grind size (AKA grinder setting).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

#10: 17% under 400, 38% between the sieves, 45% above 800. Average grind size a little under 800um. 38% in target range.

#12: 14% under 400, 25% between the sieves, 61% above 800. Average grind size ~850? 25% in 'target range'.

So you can see going finer increases the proportion in target range & decreases the grounds retained on the 800...with a little hiccup with sub 400 particles at #10  I wouldn't get my knickers in a twist over the odd 5% though.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

The trouble for me with all this is I've no idea what to do with it!

A lot of people (particularly on HB) are talking about removing the fines, under the assumption that the fines are bad. I know Perger and others have come full circle and now think that fines are fine (pardon the pun), and that the boulders should be removed.

Here's one theory:

In a normal unsifted pour over there is a mixture of grind sizes from fines all the way up to boulders. Given a brew time of, say, 3 minutes only grinds up to a certain size will be able to be extracted "properly". Anything over this size is too big for the water to full penetrate and extract in the time.

This means you have a certain amount of the coffee dose "hidden" away. You think your brew ratio is 15g/250g, but perhaps your effective dose is really just 12g. So for most coffees that are brewed, we have a smaller dose than we think.

I can imagine that longer brew times make the boulder problem less of a problem and that it is more troublesome for espresso (30s) than pour over (3 minutes) than long immersions (20 minutes).

Is this why boulders are being thought of the enemy more than fines, or am I barking up the wrong tree?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You have a recipe, you have a target average EY, you know what tastes good. Brew to that. Then sieve to see where your average grind size roughly is. Select sieves that sit either side of that average...discard, regrind, whatever when you get there. 

What are "fines"? In the neo coffee-sphere people just pick an arbitrary number and call everything under that number "fines". E E Lockhart suggested particles less than half th size of the average, greater than twice the size of the average were outside the normal range (outside of 95% of total weight for a normal grinder). To have half an idea what your fines are, you need to know the average. Forget "fines", if you discard small particles and your brew improves, hey, do a little dance, but most folk still won't know how much of that is fines.

It's like me calling anyone taller than me a giant and anyone shorter a dwarf 

This effective dose business is nonsense. There's another name for how much of your dose is extracted, going back 65years, it's called "extraction yield".

Sure, by narrowing the distribution, you should be able to stretch out time, in turn this will increase EY without detrimental flavours. Check out the Kruve recipes page...6min Chemex?

I personally, without any real evidence, suspect that you are right, regarding extraction I think it's the large particles that do the most harm, perhaps the more accessible surface area leads to more aggressive extraction off the outer layers in these particles? Fines are a problem if they get into the drink and make it claggy.

If you brew with just about any method, if you go too fine, extraction drops, clearly the fines are not fully extracting...maybe they would if they got good access to the brew water.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

sounds sensible i'll check where my preferred grind is currently at.

as a brief aside, do you think different coffees grind more or less the same at the same setting?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

fluffles said:


> sounds sensible i'll check where my preferred grind is currently at.
> 
> as a brief aside, do you think different coffees grind more or less the same at the same setting?


I sieved my doses every day for months, similar roast levels, different origins, roasters - I was aiming to remove the largest 10-15% of the dose, at a constant grind setting & I don't think it pretty well ever fell outside this range (if it did, maybe a 1%?). So, yes, more or less


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

regarding re-grinding boulders - doesn't work so well for me on the EK. I threw in around 5g and about 1g or so got left in the grinder.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Sieved for espresso this morning. Probably won't make a habit of it (or at least won't make a habit of regrinding boulders). Took about 3 minutes to leave 3g over 500 um (after regrinding boulders) and didn't use a second sieve. Resultant shot pulled with 15g of coffee for 40g out in 28 seconds (the same time and weight as an 18g dose); the taste was sweeter, body smoother, flavours easier to separate and it lacked bitterness even when it had cooled. Used the Lido E - can't imagine regrinding boulders with the commercial grinders aside from an Ek 43 and the like. I initially sifted 5g to test and was pleased to see very little fall through the 250 um sieve.

Now, anybody know how to get these things dry without leaving bits of tissue on them?


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## "coffee 4/1" (Sep 1, 2014)

Rob1 said:


> Sieved for espresso this morning. Probably won't make a habit of it (or at least won't make a habit of regrinding boulders). Took about 3 minutes to leave 3g over 500 um (after regrinding boulders) and didn't use a second sieve. Resultant shot pulled with 15g of coffee for 40g out in 28 seconds (the same time and weight as an 18g dose); the taste was sweeter, body smoother, flavours easier to separate and it lacked bitterness even when it had cooled. Used the Lido E - can't imagine regrinding boulders with the commercial grinders aside from an Ek 43 and the like. I initially sifted 5g to test and was pleased to see very little fall through the 250 um sieve.
> 
> Now, anybody know how to get these things dry without leaving bits of tissue on them?


On using my home made sieve i tend to find the taste is sweeter, certainly is a strange one, have no idea why.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Fines over extract which leads to increased bitter notes. Removing them or a proportion of them will lead to a more balanced cup.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

This mornings experiment with the 500/1000 and a 24g final dose was much better. Will be trying just using the upper filter later on. Possibly dropping to the 900.



fluffles said:


> regarding re-grinding boulders - doesn't work so well for me on the EK. I threw in around 5g and about 1g or so got left in the grinder.


I suspect with a normal direct gravity fed grinder it'd work better. With the pre-breaker in the EK43... yeah, it'd settle to the bottom and would be difficult to move along. Certainly the same on the Santos No1.



Rob1 said:


> Now, anybody know how to get these things dry without leaving bits of tissue on them?


Compressed air can works, but is a bit messy. I've ended up using a small flat brush to get the worst off and then a quick rinse and then a microfiber cloth and just sitting the filter on one half it and folding the other half onto the top and leaving it for a few minutes.


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## Tufty_B (Nov 24, 2014)

Rob1 said:


> Now, anybody know how to get these things dry without leaving bits of tissue on them?


I gently dabbed with a tea towel, rubbing on anything will just grate it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm waiting for someone to recommend sticking it in a bag of rice!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Hairdryer?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Micro Hoover, sorry " Huve"?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Air dry on the warming rack.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I tried hoovering mine with the Henry. Ended up brushing with a pasty brush. It'll be the weekend before I use them again, and probably only for brewing.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Brewed on the Kalita this morning...

16.5g through the EK at setting 11. Sieved through the 1000um gave me 13.8g. Didn't have time to grind and sieve more so used 1.2g out of the boulders to make up to 15g. So I basically had a dose with fewer boulders in than normal.

15g/250g - 40g bloom then two pours. Finished at 3:00. 1.46/20.44%.

Very nice in the cup. Hard to say whether its better than un-sieved on a sample of one, but its very nice all the same. Certainly sweet and smooth.

Would be good to do some side-by-side tests at some point.


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## Flibster (Aug 15, 2010)

Another day, another experiment.









30g in from Santos No1. 1000/250 sieves fitted. Got my normal 24g dose with some left over.

400g water applied in my slightly abnormal fashion and after 3:15 it was done. Very tasty.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

19g ground in the lido, one full turn and three notches out from zero. Lost about 5g to grinds under 500um and would have lost another 3g over 800um. Using an old metal filter sediment in the coffee was massively reduced vs unsifted.

Brewed with 15g in the end by mixing in the 'boulders'. Again, will probably just use one sieve for this brew method. Brew was visibly more even with the water slowly taking on a reddish brown colour even after stirring. Should have brewed for longer. Taste was weak and thin but with easily perceptible sweetness and mild barely perceptible orangey acidity. Brew ratio was 1:15 unsifted, so should maybe aim for 1:13 or 1:14 with a longer brew time. (Total brew time was 1:35; heat cut at 1:20).

It was a massive faff but mainly because of the need to tweak the grind.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rob1 said:


> 19g ground in the lido, one full turn and three notches out from zero. Lost about 5g to grinds under 500um and would have lost another 3g over 800um. Using an old metal filter sediment in the coffee was massively reduced vs unsifted.
> 
> Brewed with 15g in the end by mixing in the 'boulders'. Again, will probably just use one sieve for this brew method. Brew was visibly more even with the water slowly taking on a reddish brown colour even after stirring. Should have brewed for longer. Taste was weak and thin but with easily perceptible sweetness and mild barely perceptible orangey acidity. Brew ratio was 1:15 unsifted, so should maybe aim for 1:13 or 1:14 with a longer brew time. (Total brew time was 1:35; heat cut at 1:20).
> 
> It was a massive faff but mainly because of the need to tweak the grind.


I'm going to start another thread on this (brewing, sieving techniques, etc.) but I don't think you should be changing the brew ratio to accommodate coarser grounds, I'd change the sieve sizes to better match your grin size that you know works, if the coffee is still weak & thin, then look at a finer grind (& smaller sieves).


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Is anyone trying this for espresso?

Mine arrived this morning. Did not change my grind (it's dialed in for the wild Ethiopian Wodiyo I'm drinking).

Used the 500-250 sieves. Lost about 22% to boulders and 12% to fines. Ended up extracting a 17.5g dose into 35g drink. It was sweet but lacked dimension. Not sure I liked the effect.

Clearly need to do more experimentation but this is a whole new order of faff. It took about three minutes to prep a shot.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

34% of your grind is more than fines or boulders, maybe try a bit finer & just sieve out the >500 (maybe aim 10-20%)?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

How was the extraction time different? Curious to know the effect of removing the 500 and extraction appeared more even from bottom of portafilter, in fact if anything the shot slowed down given it was pulled with a lower weight of grinds. It's a gigantic faff for espresso but coarser grinds sieve more easily and I'm thinking it might be interesting to just mix the


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Phobic said:


> just ordered a set of 12


just in case people are wondering, I wasn't on the kickstarter and put in an order for a set of 12 on 31st jan.

got an email today saying that they'd shipped. 2 weeks was much quicker than I was expecting as when I bought they were showing as pre-order only.


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