# Single dosing grinders



## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

The time to replace my Super Jolly is approaching. I'm after a grinder that will help me achieve more complex flavors but still allow for single dosing with minimum retention. On a typical weekday I drink two espresso or espresso based milk drinks while on weekends I have up to 4-5 coffees. It's not very often that I make coffee for other people. I'm left with the impression that conicals need weight in the hopper to perform up to their potential so that means I have to look for flat burrs. And maybe most importantly my budget is around 700 quid and that's if I can sell my Silvia and SJ for a reasonable price. What are my options within this budget? I'm thinking a Mythos but I don't know if it meets my requirement of single dosing/retention..


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mythos doesn't retain much but don't know if grind quality suffers without a weight of beans. Don't think flat burrs are immune to this either (see how much the grind setting changes with a weight v without)

HG One would be the obvious choice if you don't mind a bit of elbow grease


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

I think I read somewhere here that while flat burrs suffer from a smaller decline in quality as compared to conicals. My problem with single dosing is that you either have to purge after each shot/in the beginning of each day or live with the fact that some percentage of your shot will consist of stale grinds. The HG One is on the table but these don't come up very often around here and if I buy new when I pay for shipping, tax, duties, etc. the price will exceed my budget


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I suspect Any on demand will need a weight of something to gain better consistency in the cup - perhaps any commercial grinder really does

If not you will be grinding finer for a pure single dose and that grind may be less consistent

In general flats are considered easier to single , due to most of them having less retention than a conical ( this is a generalisation and will differ between brands and models ) . You can single dose a k10 dose with bump and brush , and there is little retention ....there was one for sale in the threads but im pretty sure it wasn't able to be shipped ....

Why buy an on demand and single dose, you are paying a premium for tech ( timer etc ) that you are not using.....

Other options

Hg1 - New Pharos ( yes both hand grinders )

Weight of beans or weight gizmo for any on demand or commercial grinder


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Pharos "2" is taking pre orders for September delivery if you can wait. I'm very tempted myself but will probably hold out to see how effective that anti static plastic is.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

To improve the consistency on my RR45OD which I use an acrylic tube as a microhopper for, I purchased a piece of copper rod 40mm in diameter and 50mm in length. That weighs about half a kilo and means I have only a few beans sitting in the microhopper going stale. Although I have to refill it once or twice a day so not sure how stale the beans really get. With that weight on top of the beans, I am getting far better consistency than when I was using the full size hopper and a full 250g bag of beans in that hopper.

I am convinced that microhoppers with a weight are the way to go for consistency and limiting the amount of beans exposed to the air. I prefer both the consistency and the convenience of this approach.

I have a small grinder brush with long and flexible bristles which help me to get all the grinds out of the chute as well. Its the grinder brush from Happy Donkey. Doesn't look like much but is great for this particular task.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

It doesn't have to be an on demand. I'm pretty happy with my SJ in terms of dosing. A Royal is also an option but I don't expect a big difference in the cup. As I said my concern is the stale grinds that remain between the burrs and in the chamber. I ship my coffee from the UK each month so if I have to flush 5g a day that will mean more frequent ordering and thus a cost increase in the medium term.

@Rob1 thanks for the suggestion. I don't know very much about the Pharos but it doesn't seem like a very easy grinder to use for espresso.

@ridland I'm more worried about the beans and grinds that are left between the burrs. When you have a hopper full of beans and want to grind just 18g, a few grams are inevitably going to end up half ground between the burrs or ground in the chute.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

bronc said:


> A Royal is also an option but I don't expect a big difference in the cup.


You'd be surprised what those bigger burrs can achieve


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

bronc said:


> @ridland I'm more worried about the beans and grinds that are left between the burrs. When you have a hopper full of beans and want to grind just 18g, a few grams are inevitably going to end up half ground between the burrs or ground in the chute.


Lens hood puffs most of them out


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Maybe @garydyke1 has a point. I love my Mazzer and would love to stick to the brand. @jeebsy didn't you have a Royal? How did you find its performance?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Really good, was upgrading from a Mignon so big jump, i single dosed on it though and the faff started annoying me after a while. For £350-400 i doubt you'll get a better performing grinder in the cup though


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Oh well, maybe I should try a Royal and see how it goes. First have to sell my Silvia though..

@coffeechap do you have any Royals sitting around?


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?24335-Mazzer-Royal

i made the move.....


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I'd love a Royal, but it's too big to go underneath our kitchen cabinets. I'm more than happy with my Major though.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

I'd like to compare Royal against Major. Obviously Royal v SJ you get bigger burrs and slower spin. But Royal v Major just the slower spin. I'm sure there is a difference.....


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## c10cko (Jul 16, 2015)

I'm watching this thread with great interest!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mr O said:


> I'd like to compare Royal against Major. Obviously Royal v SJ you get bigger burrs and slower spin. But Royal v Major just the slower spin. I'm sure there is a difference.....


It spins slower







.....whether that can be tasted or the difference would be down to barista variance , who knows...?

Have you been to any cafe's in the Dam today btw


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Mr O said:


> I'd like to compare Royal against Major. Obviously Royal v SJ you get bigger burrs and slower spin. But Royal v Major just the slower spin. I'm sure there is a difference.....


Getting deja vu here. In your thread didn't Dave say there is a surprising performance gain from the Royal vs. the major?

I love your thread where a couple of us thought you had photographed it next to a mini. It absolutely dwarfs the SJ!


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

I need to put up my Silvia for sale asap because I feel like upgraditis is getting stronger by the minute!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The royal had a different burr set to the major!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

bronc said:


> Oh well, maybe I should try a Royal and see how it goes. First have to sell my Silvia though..
> 
> @coffeechap do you have any Royals sitting around?


I have several that are off to be painted


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> The royal had a different burr set to the major!


In what way?

I've noticed there are different burr sets for each one, and both Royal and Major can use the same 151B (or 151C for 3 phase). What's the difference between Royal and Major burr sets? (granted 151A is for Major Electronic). Not picking, just puzzled.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I believe the Royal has a slower speed but the burr set is more aggressive.

The burr size are the same but the Royal is significantly taller compared to the Major. It's a monster, but is meant to produce a better result in the cup as its a cooler grind.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I believe the Royal has a slower speed but the burr set is more aggressive.
> 
> The burr size are the same but the Royal is significantly taller compared to the Major. It's a monster, but is meant to produce a better result in the cup as its a cooler grind.


Very probably, I know the Royal is slower and don't doubt it gives a better cup. I just remember when looking on the Mazzer site to see which burrs to get for my SJ I noticed that Major and Royal burrs were the same. I guess the Royal can use more aggressive burrs due to the higher torque of the mahoosive motor.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Rhys said:


> In what way?
> 
> I've noticed there are different burr sets for each one, and both Royal and Major can use the same 151B (or 151C for 3 phase). What's the difference between Royal and Major burr sets? (granted 151A is for Major Electronic). Not picking, just puzzled.


According to Terranova this refers to the cut angle on the burrs. C being most aggressive to suit the 3-phase machine, with A the least aggressive.

Pictured here are the 'A' burrs at the top and the 'C' burrs underneath.

http://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/mazzer-mahlscheiben-unterschiede.58776/#post-719454


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

For the cost, burr size, in the cup and "will fit under a counter" the Major is a pretty good buy.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> For the cost, burr size, in the cup and "will fit under a counter" the Major is a pretty good buy.


I agree, only very slightly taller than an SJ. I've stuck adhesive felt pads to the feet on mine so I can easily pull it out without marking the worktop.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I have several that are off to be painted


Thanks. Can you please drop me a PM when you get them back? I think I'll bite the bullet.


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## truegrace (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm gonna be after a royal in a month or so as well I reakon.

was gonna go for something like the 75e, but am used to single dosing now so reakon a royal will be right up my street (and reakon it might be better in the cup than a 75e!)

what colour though would be the question. A polished one to match the R58 would be ideal (but no doubt expensive)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

truegrace said:


> I'm gonna be after a royal in a month or so as well I reakon.
> 
> was gonna go for something like the 75e, but am used to single dosing now so reakon a royal will be right up my street (and reakon it might be better in the cup than a 75e!)
> 
> what colour though would be the question. A polished one to match the R58 would be ideal (but no doubt expensive)


if you want one a specific colour it can be arranged!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I need a weight for simulating a full hopper for my Ceado. I think the grind consistency is suffering towards the end of the grind because I'm getting weird behaviour in my extractions. Inconsistency despite same grind, dose and tamp.

At the moment I'm thinking of getting a 500g or 1kg calibrating weight and adding it to a piece of wood crafted to sit in the throat without being able to touch the burrs. I could maybe do with an acrylic tube too just to ensure the diameter of the opening is consistent for the crafting of the stopper. The width of the rubber opening on the throat of the Ceado is 58mm.

What do others use for weights and where did they buy them? Is the use of a calibrating weight a good idea? They are available for between £8-£15 on eBay.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

@Rob1

Not sure what size hopper you have but if it's the same size/shape as a Compak E10, dfk41 was using a weight lifting weight wrapped in cling wrap and was pleased with the results as far as grind consistency went.

Most people who purchased borosilicate glass tube hoppers as part of the group buy and are using a weight seem to have gone for one of the stainless steel cylindrical ones available on eBay.

Hope that helps.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Thanks, I'll do a search for them. The hopper is way too big to fit under the cupboard. There's about 5cm of clearance with no hopper, which is just enough room to tip beans in with the old e61 shower screen dropped into the opening after them.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

Some food for thought..


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http://instagr.am/p/BDvigyvSuCg/


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http://instagr.am/p/BDvjrmnSuF7/


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

So, what conclusions do we draw from this?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

fluffles said:


> So, what conclusions do we draw from this?


Thanks- I was too embarrassed to ask that... I just looked and saw similar distribution, and a chart I didn't understand


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## timmyjj21 (May 10, 2015)

From what I interpret... All of us single dosers now need to put a 6.6kg weight on top of our beans?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

timmyjj21 said:


> From what I interpret... All of us single dosers now need to put a 6.6kg weight on top of our beans?


Because....


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## timmyjj21 (May 10, 2015)

Missy said:


> Because....


Actually I don't know! Re- reading it I think I had it wrong the first time.

The bar graph shows that the 6.6kg loaded dose TDS/extraction had virtually no range to the standard deviation, but all methods are not significantly different (standard deviation bars all overlap). I guess if you want completely repeatable shots, the extra weight creates better repeatability.

The line graph is trickier. I assume that a single short, sharp peak is desirable, representing a grind that is all one sized particle. From this I assume a larger, flat curve is less desirable. So the yellow single dosing curve is not the best with its 2 more obvious peaks. The full hopper also has a broader main peak. I would almost be tempted to say that the half full hopper has the best curve with a sharper curve and more particles at the 275(ish) size, but the weight loaded curve is smoother.

Interpretation... Erm... I like single dosing and will continue to do so?


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## timmyjj21 (May 10, 2015)

It would be interesting to see the difference between various weights on the beans when single dosing. Also interesting to see the actually realistic weight behind the beans in the hopper - eg hold the hopper a fraction of a mm off the scales and measure the weight of beans in the throat. I would have assumed the hopper sides will support some of the bean weight, and the inlet cone (red dot marked in line graph) would negate a lot of the weight, but I guess this is what they were trying to show with the test.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

I think you're reading too much into these results - I'd read them as saying there's no clear effect.



timmyjj21 said:


> It would be interesting to see the difference between various weights on the beans when single dosing. Also interesting to see the actually realistic weight behind the beans in the hopper - eg hold the hopper a fraction of a mm off the scales and measure the weight of beans in the throat. I would have assumed the hopper sides will support some of the bean weight, and the inlet cone (red dot marked in line graph) would negate a lot of the weight, but I guess this is what they were trying to show with the test.


Done that, and posted it here somewhere - the effective weight is very small.


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## timmyjj21 (May 10, 2015)

Thanks, I was pretty sure I had seen something about weights before. I agree there isn't a great difference, but wasn't sure if the line graph was supposed to show something or just be inconclusive!


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