# Improving the shot



## zid (Nov 22, 2012)

I'm looking for some recommendations on how to improve my espresso pulling techniques as I'm getting inconsistent shots. There's obviously a lot of info online but I'm more interested in hands-on experience. From what I gather from different resources the basics are:

1) From 14-20 grams of coffee for a double

2) 20-30 seconds extraction time

So my first question is how do I know if my coffee is under/over extracted? I tend to use different beans a lot and often it is hard for me to tell if I just find the new beans too dark and bitter or my shot is not right. Is there a way to tell without relying on taste buds too much, so that I could be confident I got a good representation of what the specific beans are like? For example, is there a recommended output weight I could measure? I was reading somewhere that it should be roughly double the amount of coffee I'm using - is that right? Or is there a better way to tell like using the volume instead of the weight?

When something is off and I get an under/over extracted coffee what do I adjust? Do I change the amount of coffee or do I adjust the grind? How do I know how much coffee I should put in? Obviously 14-20 grams is a huge difference. One place where I buy my coffee recommends about 20.7 grams of coffee for pulling a shot with their roast. Does the amount of coffee needed per shot really differs from bean to bean? Isn't it all about the density i.e. the grind?

At the moment I'm using Gaggia Classic with Mazzer SJ grinder. I buy only freshly roasted beans from micro roasters.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

these link wont directly answer your questions but are a good grounding for some of the answers you will get to the questions you have asked

And help you understand how measure some things to change the taste of coffee in your cup ..

Be worth reading first ...

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?375-Weighing-Espresso-(Brew-Ratios)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?376-How-to-weigh-espresso-with-scales-creating-a-brew-recipe

there is a third article ready on how to try and get a balanced cup via brew ratio ill get that up to shortly .

You could say under = sour over = bitter

but extraction and general taste arent linear ....

you could be under extracting to a certain point = sourer taste

there then is a point where extraction gets bitter , before pushing on through with a higher extraction yield to a sweeter balanced cup and then onto over extracted


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## zid (Nov 22, 2012)

Great reading, thank you.

So following that logic, I can roughly say that if I use around 18-20g of coffee my output in weight (not volume) should be about 36-40g. What about the time? Is anything between 20-30 seconds ok? Seems like a huge range..

I have always measured my coffee before and after grinding as well as the extraction time. However I now realise that my output coffee weight has been around 80-100g which is way over. I guess means my grind was not fine enough..


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

zid said:


> Great reading, thank you.
> 
> So following that logic, I can roughly say that if I use around 18-20g of coffee my output in weight (not volume) should be about 36-40g. What about the time? Is anything between 20-30 seconds ok? Seems like a huge range..
> 
> I have always measured my coffee before and after grinding as well as the extraction time. However I now realise that my output coffee weight has been around 80-100g which is way over. I guess means my grind was not fine enough..


The time is a variable which you change with the grind setting, finer = slower, coarser = faster. Generally a 1:2 ratio at 25-30s is what you should aim for as a starting point. Then taste, under - extracted and sour? Try tightening the grind and/or adding a few seconds. Bitter/burnt/over extracted? shorten the time and/or coarsen the grind.


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## zid (Nov 22, 2012)

Thanks for your replies! I'm down to 50g output within 28 seconds, so getting closer. The taste is definitely much better now!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Keep pushing for -40g, tighten your grind or tamp firmer.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Grind finer , change one variable at a time


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Upper limit should be 35 seconds, not 30. I rarely pull a shot on the Kees under 30 seconds.

I also rarely venture below a 1:2 brew ratio, as I think pulling shorter limits complexity.

JP


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Grind finer , change one variable at a time


Check your tamp also though?

You can grind as fine as you like but if your not tamping right then its still gonna pour fast.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I'd stick to having exactly x amount of grams in the basket and only adjust grind at first.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

^ this

- Same dose (with good distribution, i.e. no clumps as they can make an extraction go awry - look up 'Weiss Distribution Technique' which may help)

- Same pressure tamp, not too hard but firm.

- Change the grind to affect your time

Have fun!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Beanosaurus said:


> ...no clumps as they can make...


What is this 'clumps' you speak of? I know not of this.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Scotford said:


> What is this 'clumps' you speak of? I know not of this.


Not everyone gets to fondle a Mythos One all day long Scotty Boy...

SJs don't usually have clumps once the coffee's made it out of the dosing chamber so fair play.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

"A"? As in singular? You forget that I gawp over three every day!


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Scotford said:


> "A"? As in singular? You forget that I gawp over three every day!


 Grindslut!


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## zid (Nov 22, 2012)

Thanks for all the suggestions! I'm getting between 40-50g right now, however noticed that the crema is a bit thinner.. I guess that's logical as the total extracted amount of coffee is less and crema stretches out thinner to cover the same surface.. Coffee tastes much better though! I guess the trick is not to be lazy with dialling in the grinder.

Any suggestions on tamping? I know that it is suppose to be x amount of preassure (30lb or something?) Any way to measure it?


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## The resurrection (Mar 9, 2015)

Been trying brew ratio after reading thread. I'm currently using 18g and have an output of 60g in 25secs so tried tighten grind but one mark tighter on hario slim and I just choke the gaggia that's even with a light tamp. Would you recommend tamping harder in this case on the original setting or do I need a better grinder before I can move on trying this.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The resurrection said:


> Been trying brew ratio after reading thread. I'm currently using 18g and have an output of 60g in 25secs so tried tighten grind but one mark tighter on hario slim and I just choke the gaggia that's even with a light tamp. Would you recommend tamping harder in this case on the original setting or do I need a better grinder before I can move on trying this.


What is the coffee and how old is it please


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## The resurrection (Mar 9, 2015)

Finca Escocia El Salvador from has bean roasted on 28/2


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The resurrection said:


> Finca Escocia El Salvador from has bean roasted on 28/2


You have hit the wall within tje steps of the porlex

Your only variables left to slow/ speed shot down are.

Tamp harder at coarser grind - might not work . tamp lighter at finer one .

Updose at coarser grind or down dose a little at finer one - dependant on basket you might not be able to do this ..

Porlex has big steps at gets less consistent grind wise the finer it goes


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

The resurrection said:


> Would you recommend tamping harder in this case on the original setting or do I need a better grinder before I can move on trying this.


With espresso you can go on and on upgrading if funds allow but it's much better to reach the limits of your equipment and then upgrade with some knowledge and experience than to just throw money at it. I'm not familiar with your hand grinder ( only ever used that model once) but if it's choking your machine try the finer setting with 16g or even 15g and a very light tamp, taste the result then try courser grind with more coffee and a heavy tamp and see which you prefer taste wise. Guidelines are good but they are just that, guidelines. Everyone has their own taste. I, for example very rarely dose over 17g of coffee, other people may think that's a bare minimum with some beans.

You're asking the right questions which shows you understand what's needed, so you're already half way there.


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## liesnl (Feb 25, 2015)

Hi a quick question. I am using the Gaggia classic. When pulling a shot, do you start counting the time when you switch on the button, or when the espresso starts pouring through? It usually takes between 4-5 seconds to come through.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

When you switch on the button


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## The resurrection (Mar 9, 2015)

I understand what you mean about spending more and more but I will be getting a grinder shortly anyway as I find the hand grinding a right chew on especially when trying to dial in. Was just wondering if I'm wasting my time a bit trying to get ratios sorted before the grinder comes and it sounds as though I probably am. Think I've sourced a mignon anyway so shouldn't be too long I've got a guage inbound as well so opv mod will be soon.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You don't have to dial in, but your gonna be drinking crap shots, start as you mean to go on I say!


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## The resurrection (Mar 9, 2015)

Just as a trial I had a bag of jailbreak beans that were roasted the same day as the El salvador so just opened them same grind setting same tamp just pulled shot weighed 18g in and 40g produced so seems I'm just about on the money with these beans maybe the problem lies with my first bag of beans they maybe just need that extra touch on the grind that im unable to do with present equipment. By the way jailbreak shot tasted great too


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