# Hot Milk Possible??



## Ell (Jan 15, 2021)

I'm trying to find some info that isn't seemingly mentioned anywhere online!

I want a very automatic machine as I only really want to make maybe a Latte or Cappucino or simply have a glass of HOT milk (for a hot chocolate) but nowhere mentions if any of the bean-to-cup machines actually get the milk very hot?

I've recently bought a *DELONGHI - Autentica Cappuccino ETAM29.660.SB Bean To Cup Coffee Machine* & it only gets the milk warm at best, which is not acceptable...I'll be sending it back.
Maybe my machine is faulty, but as it's simply passing the milk through the steaming wand into the cup, am I expecting something that I'll never get on a machine of this type?


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

bigred247 is that you ?


----------



## Ell (Jan 15, 2021)

No idea who you are referring to?

I'm still patiently waiting for an answer to my hopefully simple question.....


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

@Ell your good self....it's a yes or a no ?


----------



## Ell (Jan 15, 2021)

NO!

I have no clue or connection to BigRed247 whoever they are. 😡


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Ell Most of the bean to cup machines froth milk using steam and the venturi effect. Remember as a kid dipping a straw into a glass of water and blowing across the top, and getting a spray of water (much like the old style perfume atomisers worked).

The BTC machines do essentially the same thing, blow a jet of steam over a hole, creates a low pressure, milk sucks up tube, is briefly shown the jet of steam, passes through a small hole and creates a sort of foam. The brief encounter with the steam warms it up a tiny bit...but not much.

Any machine that sucks milk out of a tank using a system like the Dongi (and most do) are not capable of getting the milk hot enough. Microwaving for 20/30 seconds can help, but you will lose a little foam. If you want to get hotter and better foamed milk, choose a BTC machine with a steam wand, where you have to foam the milk manually.

e.g. a BTC that looks more like this. Melitta had it right with the, a BTC that could manually froth milk, then some silly arse in the company must have thought, lets add the "Cappuccinatore". So it went from this (which they don't sell any more).










To this: Sadly, Melitta changed their design of this machine and ruined it by putting that stupid Cappuccinatore device on it and sucking milk up a tube (which of course will no longer be hot). They no longer have a BTC in their range which has a normal steam wand. A great shame because they make some of the better BTC machines.










Just one of the things that happens when large corporates don't ask the right people what they should do. At the very least they could have made a dual use wand where you clip the "Cappuccinatore" on if you really want it....or leave it off if you want to froth normally!


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

It depends what you mean by "hot" and "very hot" milk. If you go much above about 70C {158F), chemical changes start to occur in milk, and I doubt you'll find any domestic market machines designed to do that because it is regarded as causing at least unpleasant changes to taste and/or texture, if not safety. Even pasteurisation occurs at (approximately) that temperature. Some recipes do call for "scalded" milk, but mostly even those are based on old recipes not accounting for modern pre-consumer milk processing, and, of course, you can still find recipes to do with yoghurt making, and mixing of milk with yeast for bread dough with specific requirements and/or scalding.

Mostly, though, machines will be aiming at around 70C, or a bit lower, the idea being to get the milk at a temperature at or not much abovethe temperature at which most (virtually all) people actually want to drink their coffee, with the intent of making it drinkable when made, not having to leave it for ten minutes to cool down until it's cool enough to drink.

For me, and I stress it's an opinion, the ideal temperature for milk (intended for coffee) is at around 70C or a bit under, because I prefer to drink at around 50-55C, so a drink at 60C stillgives me time to make it, take it to where it's going to be drunk and still have it about right. Too cool and the milk reduces the overall temperature of the coffee to "warm" and too hot and the chemical changes to the milk ruin the taste.

For me, around 70C is "very hot", which I regard as about as high as I want it before it becomes "too hot". Maybe even 65C is closer to ideal, for me.

YMMV.


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Wow...they say you learn something "new" everyday...well today i learned a bit more (than i thought i knew) about milk....cheers Phil 😋


----------



## Ell (Jan 15, 2021)

Thanks for the fantastically detailed replies! It's appreciated. 😃

From what I've read here, I'll assume that I need the milk to be be about 65C to 70C (I realise that any hotter is a no-no) & the only way I'll get this is by using a steam wand.

Rather than use the seperate milk jug, I presume I can simply put the correct amount of cold milk into my mug & put that under the steam wand & keep it there until it's very hot??

How do I know how long to keep it under the steam wand?

I'm not massively bothered if there's froth or not.

Do all (or most) of the BTC machines with a steam wand get the milk to a high temperature? Is there anyway to confirm this on any given machine from the specs etc..? 🤔


----------



## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Adding to fantastically detailed, by under the steam wand, the steam wand needs to be *in* the milk. Otherwise it won't end well for your face, walls and and ceiling.

I'd say you could use a cup, but I wouldn't. The milk will always expand. In the olden days Costa used to do a "coffee light" Where you chucked a shot in a vat of cold skimmed milk and then steamed. It was grim...

And as everyone else said, think of the difference between fresh and UHT milk. That's what we want to avoid happening when you steam the milk, foam or no foam! Good luck!


----------



## Ell (Jan 15, 2021)

Of course I meant to use the steam wand IN the milk, possibly in the mug/glass??


----------



## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

You could but you'll end up with milk everywhere or have to settle for half a cup- the steam makes the milk expand and also (even if you don't try) makes the milk move around so to not have it slosh everywhere you'll need a not very full cup it's a two second job to rinse a milk jug, if you do it straight away


----------



## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

Ell said:


> ....
> 
> Rather than use the seperate milk jug, I presume I can simply put the correct amount of cold milk into my mug & put that under the steam wand & keep it there until it's very hot??
> 
> ...


 In a way, you've answered your own question.

Yes, you could just use a mug but there's two or three issues with doing that.

Firstly, steaming is largely about getting a vortex going with the milk. That is, getting it circulating round and round, so that the milk heats evenly. Cups and mugs come in all shapes and some will do that better than others. Jugs tend to be a shape that works well.

Secondly, how do you know it's hot enough? Well, with a jug, which is usually stainless steel, it's a pretty good conductor of heat. So if you hold the jug cupped in your hand, i.e. at an angle (typically about 45 degrees, as it helps with that vortex) when the jug gets too hot to hold comfortably, your milk is hot enough. 

Of course, cups and mugs are really intended to drink from without burning your hand, and for keeping the contents modestly warm while you do so, and so tend to be better thermal insulators than stainless steel, making it much harder to feel the milk temperature through it. In other words, both materials are better at doing their jobs but the jobs are different.

Of course, you could stick a thermometer in your mug and watch that. You could run a timer while doing so and work out how long it takes the wand to heat the milk in your mug .... though ambient temperature and even a pre-warmed mug will affect that.

Or .... you could just use a jug, and cup it in your palm so you feel the temperature. That, of course, requires a little practice but, really, working out when it's too hot to hold comfortably isn't that hard. And a quick wash and wipe with a dry cloth gets the milk off stainless steel easily. I suggest doing it immediately, not letting it dry on then doing it later.

Finally, and this depends on what coffee you're making, it's easier to judge how much milk to pour if you add milk to coffee in a mug, rather than brew the coffee into already poured milk in a mug. And not everybody likes the same amount of milk. I prefer mine milkier than the wife. And I can do milk for both of us in one go, in a jug.

Really, whatever works for you is fine. I'm not a great believer in there being some magical "right" or "wrong" way but, sometimes, there are good reasons for the conventional (in a jug) way, and I think this is one of them. But hey, that's what works *for me. *


----------



## Ell (Jan 15, 2021)

@CoffeePhilE Again, your reply is very enlightening.

Do all (or most) of the BTC machines with a steam wand get the milk to a high temperature? Is there anyway to confirm this on any given machine from the specs etc..? 🤔

Does semi-skimmed milk heat/froth quicker/easier than full-fat milk?


----------



## Ell (Jan 15, 2021)

I really hope someone can answer my last questions as I'm gagging to order a new machine, but won't until I've had an answer(s) so I have the best chance of buying the correct machine.


----------



## ZiggyMarley (Jan 9, 2019)

Ell said:


> high temperature?


 what is a high temp in your book.

Perhaps you should do some experiments with some milk, a thermometer and a microwave- tell us what temp you want to reach


----------



## Ell (Jan 15, 2021)

ZiggyMarley said:


> what is a high temp in your book.
> 
> Perhaps you should do some experiments with some milk, a thermometer and a microwave- tell us what temp you want to reach


 I've already quoted that I'll take CoffeePhilE's high temp as between 65C & 70C

It's as good as any.....if it's too high, I've lost nothing in having a too powerful milk wand!


----------

