# Dialling in



## stubiff (Dec 14, 2020)

Have just bought an espresso coffee machine (beans).

Have read a bit about dialling in and either altering the yield first or altering the grind size first (assuming the dose is fixed to start).

Is there any difference in the techniques or will they roughly end up with the same result?

Is there a certain technique to quickly get to an acceptable result?

Thanks.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

stubiff said:


> Have just bought an espresso coffee machine (beans).
> 
> Have read a bit about dialling in and either altering the yield first or altering the grind size first (assuming the dose is fixed to start).
> 
> ...


 Changing the yield will impact on the strength of your brew as well as the Extraction yield.

You can only go so far with grind before it stops having an effect.

Worth checking out the barista hustle sections on dose , strength , yield and the James Hoffman Videos in dialling in .


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## Philip HN (Nov 7, 2019)

Hello and welcome. Your question very much depends on what you consider acceptable (and that will change over time) and what you think of as quick...

There's a whole world of material out there about how to start off, and quite possibly as many opinions on this forum as there are forum members, particularly as you get into the details. But for what it's worth, I began dialling in (a term I hadn't heard then) by sticking to a dose - probably 18g - and a time - 30 seconds - and tried to produce a 1:2 ratio in that time. As I went along I learned how sensitive my grinder was to adjustments and I learned the sorts of incremental changes I needed to make to slow down or speed up the process to the extent needed. I guess that what I'm saying is that I needed to get to a first base where I could benchmark the result and from where I could make further adjustments eg to yield. The fewer variables you introduce while you are getting used to your set-up and dialling in your own taste buds, the less likely you are to go crazy.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Here is one piece of advice , use your measures as that , to measure not to taste with .

Weight in and weigh out and time are there to help you change a variable after you have tasted a drink. They are not there as a rigid rule meter than has to be hit.

You see so many posts state something along the lines of , my shot is nearly dialled in perfect at 1:2 and 25 to 30 seconds but it isn't tasting very good.

There is no magic in a arbitrary 5 second window of time for example .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

stubiff said:


> Have just bought an espresso coffee machine (beans).
> 
> Have read a bit about dialling in and either altering the yield first or altering the grind size first (assuming the dose is fixed to start).
> 
> ...


 Adjusting grind only will change the flavour balance at a limited range of concentration in the cup.

Adjusting ratio (pushing more water through the puck) will have a more significant effect on extraction (easier to get more extraction), but the resulting drink will be less concentrated/weaker.

If your intended "same result" is a specific strength/concentration, then changing ratio won't achieve this. If your intended result is a balanced shot ("same result" in terms of extraction), then adjusting grind and ratio will achieve this, assuming you can tolerate weaker, thinner shots (might be fine if you like Americanos & neat espresso with reduced mouthfeel, will get lost in milk more easily though).

So first, do you have a specific preference with regard to strength, or milk drinks?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

stubiff said:


> Have just bought an espresso coffee machine (beans).
> 
> Have read a bit about dialling in and either altering the yield first or altering the grind size first (assuming the dose is fixed to start).
> 
> ...


 What beans, machine, grinder are you using?


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## stubiff (Dec 14, 2020)

Thanks for the replies.

Re preferences - my wife is the coffee drinker, really, so it would be oak milk (or similar) latte or americano. Sounds like americano would be ok with (and may benefit, to get get all the flavours) a higher ratio but milk drink would need a lower ratio, maybe? Initially, I'd just be trying to get something balanced (strength v extraction).

Machine is a Sage Barista Touch. Beans are from our local coffee shop (a blend from York Emporium that isn't on their website) but ultimately will probably be direct from YE, say Four Bean blend, which is one of a few recommended by them as suitable for americano and latte.

However, at this point, it was more to get an understanding of what the process may be.

Have looked at BH and Hoffmann and that led to the question really, as one (with the dose set) seems to change grind initially and one changes yield initially (via time). Also, not suggesting that they only change that variable, just the one they change first.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

"Balance" usually refers to flavour balance, rather thsn strength. If you can get a balanced flavour at a short ratio, then great. Sometimes though a shorter ratio will bias towards more acidic shots.

You don't really want to be varying ratio all the time, but maybe focus on getting your wife's milk drinks tasty at a (shorter) ratio that stands up in milk, then you have the option to run more water through the puck for a neat espresso/Americano.

You can't really vary output by time, because time wanders for consistent shots. Vary the output by using scales on the drip tray & killing the shot to get your target. Steer the flavour balance with grind adjustments (this will have a knock on effect on time, but times of bad shots will dovetail with good).


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## Sean ASA (Sep 15, 2020)

I would say start with grind and fine tube with yield. Assuming you only have 1 or maybe 2 baskets. Lets say you've upgraded to 18g basket. If your grind is badly out (and it doesn't take much change to the grinder setting) if too corse you might get 60ml gushing out in 15 seconds or if you've gone too fine and it's really dense 15ml in 30seconds. Both would taste awful. If you've in the 25-35 range for 36g out then you can play with a little longer 40 seconds 40/50ml out or shorter 22 seconds for 30g out or so. And judge by taste, or what best fits in your cup size! (The above popped up when I was typing and is more on point then my answer)


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

stubiff said:


> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> Re preferences - my wife is the coffee drinker, really, so it would be oak milk (or similar) latte or americano. Sounds like americano would be ok with (and may benefit, to get get all the flavours) a higher ratio but milk drink would need a lower ratio, maybe? Initially, I'd just be trying to get something balanced (strength v extraction).


 Probably best to err on the side of a normal-to-longer ratio than try to go short. 1:2 as a minimum really but it does depend on the roast (not familiar with the beans). I don't think a low ratio stands up to milk better, assuming the cup capacity is the same. IOW if you are using a milk to coffee ratio a shorter shot will come through better but if you are using a specific cup size a longer shot will come through better as you are effectively reducing the amount of milk you're adding.


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## stubiff (Dec 14, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Probably best to err on the side of a normal-to-longer ratio than try to go short. 1:2 as a minimum really but it does depend on the roast (not familiar with the beans). I don't think a low ratio stands up to milk better, assuming the cup capacity is the same. IOW if you are using a milk to coffee ratio a shorter shot will come through better but if you are using a specific cup size a longer shot will come through better as you are effectively reducing the amount of milk you're adding.


 Ah, ok. Cup size would be fixed. So, actually, 1:2 to 1:2.5 would probably suffice for both drinks. And the same ratio would probably suffice for both.

Will probably change the grind size first, to get in the right ballpark. The drink 'process' will be pushing buttons rather than weighing, etc.

As the dose is based on grind time (from the machine) then the earlier I tweak grind size in the dialling in, the earlier I know what the 'standard' dose is going to be, and then know the ratio is accurate. If I tweak the grind at the end then the dose may change and throw out the ratio, etc.

If I'd known it was going to be this complicated!


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