# Having a hard time with my coffee lately.



## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Dam im getting frustrated with sour or bitter shots lately...

i like trying different beans but just cannot continue to justify it, i waste so much dialing in my grinder...... So i think im going to stick to one bean untill i get better,

i thing where im going wrong is not weighing in or out... So im just guessing everytime.. i have ordered some scales, so is it a case of keeping your grinder completely empty, and then tipping in your weighed amount of beans untill it runs empty?? My grinder has apparently accurate doser on it, so could i just weigh the ground amount? Check its accurate everytime and do it that way??? Or is it best to weigh beans in and how much espresso out?? I dont really like doing it into shot glasses and then tipping out as you lose so much cremer, i also dont really want a full double shot in my lattes... So was wondering what ratios im aiming for? Im using a double basket.

is it 18g of coffee beans in, and about 2 fluid oz of espresso out in 27-30 seconds? So if i split that shot in two, im looking at roughly 1oz of espresso per drink?

I have to sort my dosing out as i think thats where the problem lies now... My puck is also getting stuck on the group head most times which is annoying me... Is that normal... ?

Anyway, thanks for any suggestions...


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Def weigh your grinds in and out of the grinder and then weigh your shot also. 18g should give you 28.8g out (going by the standard 1.6 ratio) though I watch for blonding before stopping my shot. Depending on how good my distribution is dictates how early my shot blondes.

Sounds like you may need to decrease the amount of grinds in your basket though if you weigh you may find you are putting less in anyway so your puck should not stick to the shower plate.

Stick to one bean, it's so much easier when you're trying to figure stuff out.

Also, try grinding straight into the basket and spinning your basket round in a circle and filling it up round the edges first. For me, this leaves a little divot in the centre that I fill up after I've brushed grinds out of my grinder. I then level off with a finger (no downward pressure) and tamp. This gives me a single cone pour 95% of the time.

Others will have other methods for you to try (incl nutating) but try to keep it as simple as possible.

Distribution is king!


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't think I ever pull a double shot as long as 2fl oz. Try pouring a double shot into one espresso cup and stop it shorter & compare.

Also get your beans from me







#shameless


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

smokeybarn said:


> Also get your beans from me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dont think its the beans!


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Milanski said:


> Def weigh your grinds in and out of the grinder and then weigh your shot also. 18g should give you 28.8g out (going by the standard 1.6 ratio) though I watch for blonding before stopping my shot. Depending on how good my distribution is dictates how early my shot blondes.
> 
> Sounds like you may need to decrease the amount of grinds in your basket though if you weigh you may find you are putting less in anyway so your puck should not stick to the shower plate.
> 
> ...


Thanks Milanski,

ok so ill start with 18g and hope to get 28.8 out.. In 27 seconds i guess.... ? I always give it a little stir with cocktail stick, and a tap... The coffee is always a bit under the rim, so i dont think im over filling, and the puck still gets stuck... This is it straight from grinder


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Then tapped and stirred


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

And finally tamped, so doesnt seem over full... Does 18g brim a double basket before tamp?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Show it after your shot...


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I may be wrong, but after tamping it appears a little coarse to me!?


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Ok cool, ill do one now


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Yeah looks quite clumpy which isn't going to help. What grinder do you have?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If your doing a shot now with that grind, time from pump on to first drops?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What basket are you using?


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

So it seemed to turn out quite a nice shot, although it did not stick to the shower plate this time. Typical...


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

That shot glass is 2oz at the brim... Is that about the right amount for a double basket?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Looks to course to me, take the grind finer and see.

How long did it take to start pouring from hitting the switch?

Also i think i can see the dent in the center from the screwhead?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

That crema looks very pale. A sign of under extraction. I take it they are fresh beans. Can look like this if stale.


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Yeah, pump on till shot was 6 seconds... Then two rats tails over 22 seconds to that amount...

jeebsy, not sure Mike Mc kindly gave it to me... Ill try it a bit finer, but the extraction does seem fine to me now, it has been a bit drippy, so been making it coarser....

Yeah i always seem to get that dent, is that not normal to see that??


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

6 seconds is a little quick, not much but enough.

Take it a little finer till your getting first drips at 8-10 seconds then try it.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Try 16g in the basket and weigh what comes out!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

The dent means you may have to much in the basket and its touching the screw that holds the shower plate in, take your grind finer first and see what happens.

If you can get the taste right and its still showing that dent, then lessen the amount in the basket, not by much though, say 1g.


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Its the sage smart grinder... Heres some pics of the grind, i know its hard to tell from pics, one is straight after grind, other is after some compression with fingers..


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

i was adamant on putting 18g in and was having a few issues like you. I am now using 16g in and its a lot better.

I would experiment with weight and make it finer


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Actually dont reduce the weight of the grind, just tamp a little firmer.

You gotta get the balance right of grind and tamp, try one thing at a time!


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Yeah the crema does look pale doesnt it, they are fresh beans, well roasted on the 3rd of june, assai craik.. Single origin... Problem is, from my usual beans which are a two bean blend for espresso, the grinders like 3 whole notches finer...

Ok ill try less, if those dents and the puck getting stuck indicate too much in ill try less... I seriously need some scales


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Actually dont reduce the weight of the grind, just tamp a little firmer.
> 
> You gotta get the balance right of grind and tamp, try one thing at a time!


Agree doing one thing at a time

Keep tamp consistent and repeatable tho and move one of the others but only one .

Plus it ( tamp pressure ) has least overall impact over the

Grind dose distribution variables


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Ok i think thats my problem, the fact i dont weigh, and that my tamp is probably really inconsistent and i keep swapping beans...


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Will the Sage grind fine enough, sure i have seen comments on here that it may struggle?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> Ok i think thats my problem, the fact i dont weigh, and that my tamp is probably really inconsistent and i keep swapping beans...


Yep..









Weigh

Stock on one bean or blend Til you nail it

Change one thing at a time and see what happens


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Will the Sage grind fine enough, sure i have seen comments on here that it may struggle?


If shimmed ( which it is , then should be fine )


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

So always keep tamp the same, but keep adjusting the grind... So am i looking at 7 seconds before i should see any flow?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Thought you were putting 18g in? Or was that a guess?


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Sorry jeebsy, no its pure guess work mate, as im waiting for scales... I posted a pics to show what my basket looks like at all stages after grind, tap and stir and tamp to see if anyone could see by eye if it seemed too much or too little...

Im not sure if my grind is right or not, im trying to keep my tamp consistent but its hard to know if i am or not.... Really want to make the grinder party at rave next month.. Think it will really help me...


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If it was me, i would do the following.

Take grinder as fine as you can, grind out 18g weighing into basket.

Tamp nice and firm.

Pop in classic and hit switch, time it and weigh the output stopping at 28g

Taste!

If it doesn't start running after 10 seconds and overall time is over 30 seconds by a lot then you know its to fine, grind a little coarser and repeat.

Keep going till you get the output/time/taste required.

Just keep the tamp pressure the same, same weight and beans and play with the grind.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Where you based Louis?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

I wouldn't worry about the dent from te screw. My pucks usually have them and I dose 18-19g in an 18g vst. The coffee expands slightly when the water hits it.


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Ok thats exactly what i will do froggy.. Thanks... My grinder will choke my machine completely at its finest, i think cc managed to choke his L1 with it... But still ill work from finest still.... Based in Norwich.... Thats a point If anyone is going from this way to the grinder orgy next month, id love a lift.. Will pay petty.


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Does your puck ever stick neill?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You just gotta get used to the grinder i think, i know mine below a certain point will choke the classic with most beans, so i have a little marker to use as default, then i just go up or down from this when trying a new bean.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> Does your puck ever stick neill?


No. Not usually.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Neill said:


> I wouldn't worry about the dent from te screw. My pucks usually have them and I dose 18-19g in an 18g vst. The coffee expands slightly when the water hits it.


Agree, and 'decompression' when the solenoid does its job


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> So always keep tamp the same, but keep adjusting the grind... So am i looking at 7 seconds before i should see any flow?


Personally I think the tamp has least effect on flow rate compared to other variables

I'd start out trying to get something you can do the same each time .

Your grinder has enough adjustment to allow you to control flow rate thro grind and amount dosed


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Yep, so scales will be here saturday... So at least i can start to get weight consistent... Am i right in thinking when adjusting grind finer the scales should be running?? Read that somewhere and don't know if its true...

Do you guys tare the shot glass or cup when weighing the espresso out? Or just weigh the whole thing and take off the weight of the cup?? Sorry for all the noob questions..


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

*not scales running,, grinder running, sorry


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> You just gotta get used to the grinder i think, i know mine below a certain point will choke the classic with most beans, so i have a little marker to use as default, then i just go up or down from this when trying a new bean.


Yeah thats true... With my bodum it was turn it to the finest and that was it, thats all i had to work with.... Now i have to tweak and dial it in im finding it really difficult... Its can be completely choke, almost choked, chokey, slight chokeness, getting there, is it choking, mouse tail, rat tail, cat tail, water fall.....lol Its just finding somewhere in between mouse and rat tail with all the different beans i use...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> Yeah thats true... With my bodum it was turn it to the finest and that was it, thats all i had to work with.... Now i have to tweak and dial it in im finding it really difficult... Its can be completely choke, almost choked, chokey, slight chokeness, getting there, is it choking, mouse tail, rat tail, cat tail, water fall.....lol Its just finding somewhere in between mouse and rat tail with all the different beans i use...


Dont worry about what it looks like

Weight the dose

Aim for a weight out in a rough time .

Mouse tails rats tail doesn't mean a thing to the taste









Your chasing an image of a perfect pour without understanding how much coffee is in the drink


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Dont worry about what it looks like
> 
> Weight the dose
> 
> ...


yeah, thats true. I just aim for what it should look like coming out.. Cant wait to get my scales.. Cheers for everyones help....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Tare the scales, if you adjust the grinder finer then it's a good idea to have it running yes


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

What beans are you using? I'm using a quite light roast at the moment (LGB from kofra) so get light crema, so that's not necessarily something to worry about.

Is this the grinder you were talking about buying the other day? If so the burrs will be brand new, they need a bit of coffee through them to become worn in and stable. You could try and get a few kilos of stale beans to 'season' them, or just roll with it for a while. Annoying but the same with all new grinders, and just worth keeping in mind!


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

aaronb said:


> What beans are you using? I'm using a quite light roast at the moment (LGB from kofra) so get light crema, so that's not necessarily something to worry about.
> 
> Is this the grinder you were talking about buying the other day? If so the burrs will be brand new, they need a bit of coffee through them to become worn in and stable. You could try and get a few kilos of stale beans to 'season' them, or just roll with it for a while. Annoying but the same with all new grinders, and just worth keeping in mind!


ive swapped about a bit aaron, so ive been using haylies house blend, then i got a dark roast kenyan from koffra, and then i got some lighter roast from alex, one of his new ones... Assai craik i think its called... Love that light roast from koffra, if its the same one i got other week its lush... Hes such a nice guy in there, he gave me a cupping spoon which are not cheap...

Ah i didnt know that about new grinders, thats certainly worth baring in mind... Might buy some cheap supermarket beans and whack em through.... Just cant wait to get my scales and start doing it properly...


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Mate you're in the same position as me. Too many variables at play at once. Trying to set your grinder with an unknown basket load and different beans = head [email protected](k. I've not long had my scales and have been working on tamp keeping everything else the same. I know some guys on here with better equipment have said that tamp makes the least difference but I find that on the same grind of the same bean with 18g +/- 0.5 I can go from gusher to choker on my classic/mc2. Trouble is I bought a selection of beans from Union so just as it comes together I open a pack of something else! I am going to pick a bean and stick to it for a while whilst I work on consistency. Only once I've got confident will I start trying new beans again. Now I just have to pick a suitable bean (can of worms! )


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

hotmetal said:


> Mate you're in the same position as me. Too many variables at play at once. Trying to set your grinder with an unknown basket load and different beans = head [email protected](k. I've not long had my scales and have been working on tamp keeping everything else the same. I know some guys on here with better equipment have said that tamp makes the least difference but I find that on the same grind of the same bean with 18g +/- 0.5 I can go from gusher to choker on my classic/mc2. Trouble is I bought a selection of beans from Union so just as it comes together I open a pack of something else! I am going to pick a bean and stick to it for a while whilst I work on consistency. Only once I've got confident will I start trying new beans again. Now I just have to pick a suitable bean (can of worms! )


Yes swapping beans is a bad move for a noob like me... Just had the most frustrating morning trying to make my coffee.... I really enjoy the process but after 3 attempts and they all completely chocked im truly in a mood now....

My scales should come today, im popping to my local coffee shop to buy a couple bags of beans and i will stick to them until i nail these ratios.... I swear the settings were fine yesterday, and now its completely choking the crap out of my classic..... Grrrr i think it may be my grinder bedding in, but i am an unhappy chappy now, grinds and coffee all over the kitchen and again wasted beans.. This quest for the god shot is a testing journey lol


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

At least if you're getting the beans from your local coffee shop you can try an Espresso from those beans so you have a reference for how it should taste when you get home. I was banging my head against the wall trying to get as nice shot from some Square Mile beans- I got some great looking pours from my bottomless pf, 25 second extractions, roughly 1oz from about 18g (this was before my scales arrived). They all went down the sink. Turns out I just don't like citrussy coffee but I was blaming my technique, wondering if my PID wasn't installed properly etc etc! Got some beans from my local shop and I've made shots with them that (to me) are as good of not better than in the cafe!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Also I think don't be too gets on yourself - much as the classic is highly rated by many, it's still entry level and probably not the easiest to get consistent results from. Plus I suspect some beans are easier to get good results from than others, and like I said in my last post, it helps I'd they're a roast level that you actually like! Trouble is, at the stage I'm at, it's very much a question of finding my way. I've had enough good coffee out of mine now that the frustration factor has diminished (at least for now! )


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

*too gets* I meant *too hard on yourself*, stupid phone keyboard!


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Is that surely a double basket? If it is a triple then this could be the problem?

As a newbie also (but I get good shots I think) I do the following:

-Always weigh grounds and liquid output.

- Go through at least 1kg of same beans (important otherwise it is extremely painful)/ This also allows to learn more about the beans and what tastes you like. Reis has a nice blog post on this

-The big problem for newbies is dosing, distribution and tamping. A calibrated mat or espro will help with tamping. Distribution, dosing and clumping are the most difficult to master in my opinion.

- Make sure the machine is on for one hour


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Just buy Nescafe, so much easier!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Pretty much same as. I'm using what I believe is the Gaggia double basket. I grind into a little pot, weigh it and check for any clumps. Then I tip it into the basket and level it by pushing in all directions with a little scraper thingy which evenly distributes the coffee and results in a perfectly level basket. No downward pressure is exerted because the scraper rests on the top of the basket, and this is almost exactly 18.5g to the top. I tamp NSEW then down at roughly 20lb and polish. It sits just below the ridge in the basket so I use that to assess that it's level (I use the feel of my finger and thumb during the tamp itself). I allow half an hour warm up because the Auber manual says 20 mins should suffice. I preheat all glasses, cups and the PF.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Just buy Nescafe, so much easier!


ha! That could get you banned mate! I've been working on a project for Nespresso the last couple of weeks, is nice to get to the weekend and my real coffee!

yeah this coffee business is a lot of FAFF at the beginning isn't it? I can't understand instant (especially decaf, no redeeming features) but I can see how those who value cleanliness and convenience over ritual and quality can end up buying into the whole Nespresso thing. But despite what they say, it doesn't taste like the real deal at all. And Lord knows I drink enough of it at work, where the alternative is Nescafe instant! I would get an aeropress for work but they might complain that I wasn't 'on message'!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I don't get why it would suddenly choke your machine. How are you measuring input?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I don't understand why e need to mess with the grind so much, if you watch any videos of a decent barista they grind into the PF and tap it, then tamp.

I think too much faffing around with the grind in the basket or another container is just asking for trouble.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Just out of curiosity froggy do you use a naked PF?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I don't Boots, why?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> I don't Boots, why?


I agree that simple techniques are best where possible , you can over stir and shake to the detriment of distribution sometimes but people adopt other ways of prep to deal with dead spots or channeling on extractions .

If you are not using a naked PF then you can't see if you are experiencing these yourself , in turn m whether they are effecting your extractions and therefore if any adjustment in prep or distribution is needed.

If your happy with the taste then all good , but reducing channeling etc could improve the taste also .


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> I don't get why it would suddenly choke your machine. How are you measuring input?


Im not... Scales should come today... I believe i passed from single origin into a 3 bean blend... Should of cleaned grinder out when i swapped beans. Its my fault, I'm being lazy.. Sticking to one bean now for foreseeable future


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> I agree that simple techniques are best where possible , you can over stir and shake to the detriment of distribution sometimes but people adopt other ways of prep to deal with dead spots or channeling on extractions .
> 
> If you are not using a naked PF then you can't see if you are experiencing these yourself , in turn m whether they are effecting your extractions and therefore if any adjustment in prep or distribution is needed.
> 
> If your happy with the taste then all good , but reducing channeling etc could improve the taste also .


naked PF is next on my list and a decent tamper... Then opv mod... Then a better grinder... Then a rancilio silva.... Then a better grinder.... Then sage dual boiler.... Then a L1... Then a divorce probably


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I just don't believe any decent barista will have a little collection of cocktail sticks, paperclips or corks with metal sticking out at hand.

I stir my grinds with a keebab stick in the grinder pot, only because my grinder sucks and applies more static than a Van de graaff machine!

Channeling is easy to spot with a standard PF, you just look for the little holes, dead spots, ok you maybe need a naked Pf to spot them.

My point to all of this is that there is enough to try and get right when learning to make decent espresso, grind, weights, timings, tamping, knowledge of beans, roast levels... So why add even more steps that can screw it up?

Get it in the basket at the right particle size, a little knock or two to distribute, tamp firmly and then get it in the machine and make coffee!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> I just don't believe any decent barista will have a little collection of cocktail sticks, paperclips or corks with metal sticking out at hand.


They'll probably have a 2k grinder with big burrs and fancy electronics though


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Wait what tamper are you using Burnzy? If it's that palstic thingy that comes with most machines then there is your problem I'm afraid!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Then we should all get one of those...

Ill start saving.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Fair point , as I said naked pf reveals all , if your happy with the taste of your coffee then why change what you do .

If the OP feels there is better to be had taste wise then a naked PF is an excellent diagnoses tool ( better than puckology but only opinion )

Cafe barista will have not have to contend with an entry level grinder and therefore cocktail sticks aren't needed.

A lot of people use naked PF to help them improve , but that doesn't mean that you yourself would feel you benefit from them .

Although I did see a sieve being used fin the WBC







.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Where can I get a Matt Perger cocktail stick?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Where can I get a Matt Perger cocktail stick?


Ill sell you one, list it shortly!


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> They'll probably have a 2k grinder with big burrs and fancy electronics though


I agree, although just chatting to my local guy.. He spends alot of his morning before the shop opens cupping his coffee and dialling his grinder to get his espresso bang on what it should taste like... And often most days require adjustments..


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

That's part and parcel of being a barista. Fannying about with sticks and needles isn't


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

aaronb said:


> Wait what tamper are you using Burnzy? If it's that palstic thingy that comes with most machines then there is your problem I'm afraid!


Lol no, its a steel one, its the £12 double one off amazon.. Has a smaller size one end and a 58mm one the other.. Cant get fingers around it.... I dont think its causing me major probs but would be nice to get a decent one.... Got couple of bags of LGB this morning... Its going to be my bean for a while.. How you getting on with yours ?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You can pick one up from Happy Donkey cheap enough to start with.


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> where can i get a matt perger cocktail stick?


*chuckles*

13 char


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Burnzy said:


> Lol no, its a steel one, its the £12 double one off amazon.. Has a smaller size one end and a 58mm one the other.. Cant get fingers around it.... I dont think its causing me major probs but would be nice to get a decent one.... Got couple of bags of LGB this morning... Its going to be my bean for a while.. How you getting on with yours ?


I've almost finished my bag of LGB, will drop by Kofra tomorrow and see what single origins he has. It's nice when it is fresh, quite lemony and floral.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> That's part and parcel of being a barista. Fannying about with sticks and needles isn't


Unless they are junky baristas ....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Or like sticks


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

aaronb said:


> I've almost finished my bag of LGB, will drop by Kofra tomorrow and see what single origins he has. It's nice when it is fresh, quite lemony and floral.


Yeah... Think it could possibly be an easy one to get a sour shot from, bet its nice on your L1 ..... He made an awesome pour over this morning... Looking forward to the crawl.. Dave came in too, seen him at various coffee hotspots in norwich. didn't realise he was a head judge at UKBC, he said you mentioned the crawl to him and is coming along... I let LRR know the other day, hes looking forward to having us, said he could do us cold brews or side kicks etc...


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

I dont trust junky barista's... Its there shifty eyes & i swear its lavazza they serve


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Ok, so scales here! First mistake i only got 100g scales.... But i can get round it, it just means i have to use a shot glass then tip into my latte cup, which i hate doing as you lose so much creama... So i can quickly tare my shot glass whack it under and weigh before the scales turn off and reset...

i done 18g in and got 25g of coffee out in 28 seconds... Tastes ok, maybe a tad sour.... Shall i make 1 notch coarser or tamp a tad harder at this stage??? So i guess im looking for 3 more grams of coffee?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Grinding coarser makes the pour faster, tamping harder slows it down. What do you want to happen? And what are you using a normal gaggia basket?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

What do you mean 100g scales?


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

They only go to 100g, and my coffee cup weighs about 150 so cant tare it...

ah yeah tamping harder makes no sense... Ill coarsen her up a bit.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Try 16g in your basket, if it's a stock basket you're probably over filling it


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Yeah think im using normal gaggia double basket, got it off mike mc so not sure... One things for sure, i was putting way over 18g in..


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Try 16g in your basket, if it's a stock basket you're probably over filling it


Ok, ill try 16g... What g out am i looking for at that? Sorry for all the questions, i will get the hang of it


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

25g out.......


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Can you put something on the scales that weigh 90g, tare it, then put your cup on and tare again?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Burnzy;186966)i done 18g in and got 25g of coffee out in 28 seconds... Tastes ok said:


> Yes, get 3 more grams of coffee, at least. Even if you had been on target for 28g, lopping off 3g would see you drop under.
> 
> Stick to the ratio.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Can you put something on the scales that weigh 90g, tare it, then put your cup on and tare again?


Have you ever used scales before?


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Thats some crazy scale hacking froggy!! Cheers mate.. Ill try it.

thanks for everyones help...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> Ok, ill try 16g... What g out am i looking for at that? Sorry for all the questions, i will get the hang of it


Try 25 g out

Taste it , it is balanced to you

If not come back and tell us bitter ? Sour ? Not sweet enough ? We can help you change the extraction to find a better balance for your tastes


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Yes, get 3 more grams of coffee, at least. Even if you had been on target for 28g, lopping off 3g would see you drop under.
> 
> Stick to the ratio.


thanks, will do! I must admit 18g did not seem over full...


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Try 25 g out
> 
> Taste it , it is balanced to you
> 
> If not come back and tell us bitter ? Sour ? Not sweet enough ? We can help you change the extraction to find a better balance for your tastes


Do you know what, i think this is my problem, all espresso on its own with no sugar tastes bitter or sour to me... Is that bad? The only way i can tell if my coffee tastes good, is once its in milk with a sugar.... Once it was in my milk, it tasted ok, id say slightly sour... But not as bad as i have been getting... I guess that would explain the 3g under?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Have you ever used scales before?


Yes, but ones that go well above the weight i want to weigh!

It was just an idea.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

When you get the shot right, it will taste different to what you think it should.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Where do you live?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> When you get the shot right, it will taste different to what you think it should.


But you should still enjoy it ......


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> But you should still enjoy it ......


The point was, Burnzy thinks all espresso tastes bitter, which as we know is not the truth, it will depend on the bean.

I would advise you to go to a decent coffee shop and have a few espressos of different beans, i am the same as you in that i don't drink them without a certain volume of milk, i just don't like espresso, but you have to taste some!


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Yes, i do generally enjoy most coffee i make from my classic... Now i have scales i have much more chance of getting consistent results.... I can really see how important it is getting these ratios right now...


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> The point was, Burnzy thinks all espresso tastes bitter, which as we know is not the truth, it will depend on the bean.
> 
> I would advise you to go to a decent coffee shop and have a few espressos of different beans, i am the same as you in that i don't drink them without a certain volume of milk, i just don't like espresso, but you have to taste some!


yeah, thats true... Maybe i need to develop a taste for what it should taste like, i just really like it on its own unfortunately... I was told cupping every bean i get would help loads.... As it helps you grasp what flavours you are looking for once made into espresso... Once in milk i can pick out sour or bitter...


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

*dont like it on its own..


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Burnzy said:


> thanks, will do! I must admit 18g did not seem over full...


Sorry I meant in the cup e.g. 18:28 rather than 18:25.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> The point was, Burnzy thinks all espresso tastes bitter, which as we know is not the truth, it will depend on the bean.


Depending on the Roast and extraction.

ALL coffee is bitter to a certain extent.


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

26 grams out.. Lol, getting there.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Hows it taste?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I can vouch that Burnzy is going to good coffeeshops that know what they're doing, we just need to get him onto double espresso no sugar









Plus if you try the coffee as espresso there you have a reference point for dialing in at home too!


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## m4lcs67 (Mar 16, 2014)

I too am just getting into this whole espresso thing quite recently with the purchase of my grinder and also my new calibrated tamper. I am finding it easier to narrow things down now and with the new tamper being pre-set to a certain tamping pressure I can now dial my grinder to a suitable fineness in order to get the results I am looking for. It is a lot of trial and error and also going through quite a few beans in order to hit the sweet spot.

I'll also nail my flag to the mast. I am more of a cappuccino drinker than espresso, although I am pleasantly surprised that I can actually drink an espresso and also with out sugar (I only have between a quarter and a half a teaspoon anyway), but I am finding it far more palletable than I ever thought possible. It is early days, but hell, who knows, I might be able to not only train myself to drink espresso, but also do away with the sugar as well, so I can savour the flavour of the coffee without it being tainted by the sugar (although I take so little that I don't really think it would be an issue anyway).


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Yeah, sounds like you are not far off no sugar..... Good work...

i just managed 18 in and 30 out in 28 seconds... I have to say it was absolutely lovely... I wanted it to last forever.... Scales rule!!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> Yeah, sounds like you are not far off no sugar..... Good work...
> 
> i just managed 18 in and 30 out in 28 seconds... I have to say it was absolutely lovely... I wanted it to last forever.... Scales rule!!!


Yay!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Just made another!! Again, perfect ratios and just mind blowingly tasty.. And ive never had such good separation from crema and milk...


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

For me it was all about how it looked coming out and not the amount that was going in and what i was actually getting out...

this forum has been amazing in helping me get this down... Thanks.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Burnzy said:


> For me it was all about how it looked coming out and not the amount that was going in and what i was actually getting out...
> 
> this forum has been amazing in helping me get this down... Thanks.


Great news ! Really brilliant turn around in such a short space of time , with a cheap piece of equipment ( scales ) ....

Love it when people start getting the taste buzz!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Nice one Buddy!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Cool beans! I like that coriander leaf latte art, I think your next trick should be to represent all the flavours pictorially in milk! I wanna see chunks of chocolate and a pair of cherries in your next pic!


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