# Order for adjusting Espresso settings



## tomsweddy (Apr 22, 2020)

Hey,

Just bought a Sage Barista Pro. Trying to dial in my double espressos to taste great. Seeking help on what the correct order of adjustments should be. I'm trying to get to 36g of double espresso from 18g of dose (2:1 ratio) in 25-30s. I think that will be the ballpark to land in. In order to get there, from the list below, which variables should I adjust in which order?



Dose (g) (weighing on scales before extracting)


Grind Size (I have 30 settings to choose from)


Extracted weight (g) of shot using scales ?


Time


Shot Temp


(Tamp I have left out as I feel I've gotten pretty consistent with that now and I understand that shouldn't vary)

Appreciate any advice in which order to tackle these!

Thanks!


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Here's what I would do: Definitely don't adjust the dose from grind to grind (presume it's a 15g basket - if you are using an 18g basket perhaps dose to 19/20g, level off after but stick with that and don't adjust unless you really can't get the grind size right!), also (depending on the beans) stick to 93 C... time should be an output variable at this stage not an input variable, so basically adjust the grind size until you get the desired output weight in the desired time.

Make sure you distribute well, tamp evenly and consistently...

What are you getting right now?


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## tomsweddy (Apr 22, 2020)

The Barista Pro double basket recommends 19-22g dose in the Sage manual. I have been dosing to 18-19g, as anything more spills over during dosing and gets messy.

My beans are Clipsons & Sons "The Baron" - a classic espresso, dark roast (https://climpsonandsons.com/products/the-baron)

Regarding "distribute well", I find once I've smoothed over the dose at the machine, I am able to tap the portafilter vertically up and down on a chopping board and the dose really seems to settle down into the basket well. Then I tamp, nice and flat with a couple of polish spins. I have also inserted the portafilter under the group head and removed again to ensure there is no imprint, which there has not been.

With grind size 13 (out of 30), 13 seconds dose = roughly 18-19g, I am getting extraction first drop at 8s and finish about 27s with approx 36g of extracted shot weight. It kinda seems OK to taste, if maybe a little sour, but I'm a beginner so struggling to definitely say how good it is. Where I'm a bit puzzled is I've seen online vids of what the espresso beans should look like when ground, and my grind definitely visually looks more coarse (there are small little rocks of grind, altho very soft and instantly break when you touch/apply pressure).

Any changes you'd recommend or advice on how to start again from scratch, as I'd like to repeat the process of dialling in more methodically.

Thanks for your help!!!


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

James Hoffman did a video recently on the subject. Check his YouTube channel.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

tomsweddy said:


> With grind size 13 (out of 30), 13 seconds dose = roughly 18-19g, I am getting extraction first drop at 8s and finish about 27s with approx 36g of extracted shot weight. It kinda seems OK to taste, if maybe a little sour, but I'm a beginner so struggling to definitely say how good it is. Where I'm a bit puzzled is I've seen online vids of what the espresso beans should look like when ground, and my grind definitely visually looks more coarse (there are small little rocks of grind, altho very soft and instantly break when you touch/apply pressure).


 You can try extracting more or less. With a dark roast I'd expect less would be better but I guess try more and see if it gets worse. If it does it's probably biterness rather than sourness you're tasting, apparently poeople can confuse the two sometimes but I've never understood how or why. You could also grind finer to increase shot time and use the same ratio, or increase ratio and grind finer....basically push past sourness by extracting more or by grinding finer.

The rocks you're talking about are clumps from static. If they instantly break up on touch they shouldn't be an issue, at least that's the theory. You might be visually more coarse because of the dark roast. Just check to make sure you're using the single wall basket...


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## tomsweddy (Apr 22, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> You can try extracting more or less. With a dark roast I'd expect less would be better but I guess try more and see if it gets worse. If it does it's probably biterness rather than sourness you're tasting, apparently poeople can confuse the two sometimes but I've never understood how or why. You could also grind finer to increase shot time and use the same ratio, or increase ratio and grind finer....basically push past sourness by extracting more or by grinding finer.
> 
> The rocks you're talking about are clumps from static. If they instantly break up on touch they shouldn't be an issue, at least that's the theory. You might be visually more coarse because of the dark roast. Just check to make sure you're using the single wall basket...


 Hey - thanks for quick response  Few questions for you;

1. "With a dark roast I'd expect less would be better" - interested to know the theory behind that. Is it common to have below 2:1 for dark roasts then?

2. "You could also grind finer to increase the shot time and us the same ratio" - So when I do this, the output is always less than 2:1 however. So typically when i grind finer it comes out at 28g instead of 36g desired?

3. "Or increase ratio and grind finer" - how would you do that keeping the 18g dosage fixed?

I can confirm I am using single wall 🙂

Thankyou!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

tomsweddy said:


> Hey - thanks for quick response  Few questions for you;
> 
> 1. "With a dark roast I'd expect less would be better" - interested to know the theory behind that. Is it common to have below 2:1 for dark roasts then?
> 
> ...


 Answers in bold.

EDIT: Oh I see it's volumetric! Well you should be able to alter the settings, surely? Or just run it manually?


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

Simply put, one way is to do it in this order:

Grind setting

Ratio

Dose

Temp

Time is not a free variable, it is determined by ratio. If you pick one you must accept no direct control of the other, and people recommend picking ratio.


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## tomsweddy (Apr 22, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Answers in bold.
> 
> EDIT: Oh I see it's volumetric! Well you should be able to alter the settings, surely? Or just run it manually?


 True, its volumetric. So I can alter the volume of water flushing through, but I kinda thought that was purpose of a mid range espresso machine like the Barista Pro - its pre programmed with what is deemed a 'recommended' volume of water, which I thought was a lower importance variable in this list of settings that can be user changed.

I guess that's where I am going with this thread really... In which order should I seek to alter settings, to reach the perfect espresso shot (using this specific machine) 😉

Thanks!

PS - thanks for the tip about coming under 2:1 for a dark espresso roast. It sounds like that is more common, so I might now aim for 1.8 or 1.9... Cheers


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## tomsweddy (Apr 22, 2020)

Michael87 said:


> Simply put, one way is to do it in this order:
> 
> Grind setting
> 
> ...


 Hey!

So are you saying once i find a grind setting that is sort of ballpark correct (i.e. delivers roughly 2:1 ratio in 25-30 seconds total), next focus on TASTING the coffee at different ratios? If so, in order to achieve different ratios (keeping the grind setting fixed), which setting do you recommend to change next? The dose?

Thanks!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

tomsweddy said:


> True, its volumetric. So I can alter the volume of water flushing through, but I kinda thought that was purpose of a mid range espresso machine like the Barista Pro - its pre programmed with what is deemed a 'recommended' volume of water, which I thought was a lower importance variable in this list of settings that can be user changed.
> 
> I guess that's where I am going with this thread really... In which order should I seek to alter settings, to reach the perfect espresso shot (using this specific machine) 😉
> 
> ...


 There's no such thing as a recommended volume of water. The volume of water you use is related to grind, ratio, time, dose. So just use the manual mode. If you get it dialled in and you stick to the same bean then yeah you can program the machine to run for the right time to get your shots but you're better off just using the manual mode while weighing the output.

Pull shot. Taste. Tweak grind setting and/or ratio (1 of). Taste again. Tweak grind setting and/or ratio (1 of). Taste again. Tweak grind setting and/or ratio. You might be able to change both grind setting and ratio at the same time and save yourself a shot or two.

When you change ratio you change concentration; when you change grind you change extraction. If you alter ratio without changing grind you alter concentration and extraction. Lower ratio = higher concentration & at the same grind setting means lower extraction; higher ratio = lower concentration & higher extraction. If you change the grind setting and ratio you can dilute or concentrate while trying not to extract less or more. If you have a shot and you want to try the same extraction at a higher ratio you can just add water.

Keep dose the same if possible (if it fits in the basket properly).

https://www.google.com/search?q=barista+hustle+dialing+in+espresso&rlz=1CAOTWH_enGB825&oq=barista+hustle+dialing+in+espresso&aqs=chrome..69i57j0.4351j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#kpvalbx=_uqagXp2vIqqg1fAPw4uY0Ak37

It's the same for all espresso machines.

If you want to use the volumetric feature first find out what works and then set the machine to deliver the output you need.


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

tomsweddy said:


> Hey!
> 
> So are you saying once i find a grind setting that is sort of ballpark correct (i.e. delivers roughly 2:1 ratio in 25-30 seconds total), next focus on TASTING the coffee at different ratios? If so, in order to achieve different ratios (keeping the grind setting fixed), which setting do you recommend to change next? The dose?
> 
> Thanks!


 Don't keep the grind fixed. If you want to change the ratio, you'll probably need to change the grind to keep within your 30 second target.

Maybe I misread the question and reversed the order! I'm changing grind setting most often, then ratio 2nd most often etc.


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