# Why don't Gaggia/Philips...



## owlb (Nov 16, 2014)

Just reading the thread about the 2015 Classic and the changes that make the customisations most of us have implemented even more difficult to achieve (or in the the case of the OPV mod, now impossible).

So I was thinking doesn't anybody at Gaggia/Philips read internet forums. Surely there is a massive opportunity for them to create a "Gaggia Classic Professional" with the pressure set to 9 Bar, a proper steam arm attached and non-pressurised baskets included. They could sell this at a slight premium to prosumers and continue with the current product through their traditional channels.

It seems that all of their changes/simplifications so far have been to address criticisms by people who have been told that this is the machine to get but then haven't had the knowledge to produce a good shot. In effect they are crippling aspects of the machine to make marginally better coffee for people who aren't all that interested in quality anyway. Anybody who does has to jump through hoops to acquire add-ons and make modifications to 'correct' the machine.

I can't see how providing different models to appeal to two distinct segments could be any more confusing that the current situation.

Just a thought...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Quite simply, Philips aim for the mass market, largely ignorant segment of the market.

The people who do these mods make up a relatively tiny proportion of their customer base, not even worth the investment in R&D it would cost to make a new (or old as the case may be) class of machine.


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

Look at the amount of Gaggias for sale on eBay, about 5% are modded - agree with Dylan's points.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Like anything in life, you perhaps over-estimate the proportional importance of the group you are a part of.........in all walks of life not just coffee.

Of the overall market of people who will buy a Gaggia classic 2015, the % of people who will ever want do an "OPV mod" or a "Silvia Wand" or understand even how the machine works is a tiny %. I'm just pulling numbers out of my backside here, but I'd guess it accounts for less than 2-3% of all customers. So they won't have much desire to please the 3% when the 97% are happy with their machine with a pressurised basket that kicks out what they feel to be amazing espresso.

The minority will just have to adapt, as they always have done in the past and find ways to modify, tweak and alter the mass market products to refine it to their needs.

It is a shame though that the supposed upgrades to the latest machines seem to detract the quality another step from the original gaggia classic.........but again the mass market won't know this or even care.


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## colm1989 (Nov 17, 2014)

But real hobbyists enjoy playing with their toys and adapting them to make them better, not buying them and being satisfied with them as they are from the factory....they'd be better off continuing selling the original one to satisfy both customer groups.

I suspect there are more issues influencing the new model design though, they wouldn't decide to change it out of nowhere after over 10 years of it being largely unchanged.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's a mass market product, driven by sales and profits and absolutely not driven by quality of espresso, quality of machine, longevity or anything else. It's pure and, simple will they buy it, how much profit are we making. They couldn't care less about this forum, your mods or the insignificant difference this would make to sales, which would probably be totally outweighed by the loss of profits.

If you think Gaggia really care about how good the coffee is, or will their machine be in use in 5 years time.....they don't. The only feedback they care about, is that which causes a financially significant drop in sales.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

'*Money*'


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Sadly, all true. However, the tiny bright spot is that they sold so many of the 'old' model it should be possible for anyone to obtain a decent used or reconditioned one for some years to come.


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## owlb (Nov 16, 2014)

Interesting perspectives. Thanks.

It strikes me however that it only because a successful mass market product because it is (was) capable of producing a professional quality espresso (out of the box), something that you can't really say about similarly positioned machines in the marketplace. That was the USP. If they cared only about profit they'd strip out half the internals, not bother with a 58mm portafilter and knock it out for £79 like Russell Hobbs and Delonghi do.

So to me this is the dichotomy: It's still a very capable machine but they are making it less so year on year. There will reach a point when what they have taken away no longer justifies the cost of what remains. The RRP is £319 now. Suddenly that Sage/Silvia seems a much more attractive proposition.

I'm not sure what space they are trying to occupy. They clearly are no longer attempting to sell a prosumer product but are positioned at the expensive end of the mass-market. Trading off your reputation is a dangerous game if you on longer have anything to back it up with...

i think there would certainly be space for them to offer a niche 'professional' product at a premium with the features we would all desire. I certainly would have bought one rather than faffing about with screwdrivers, allen keys, replacement parts and the like.

They could also solve many of their (user end) problems by including a useful instruction manual explaining about grind, freshness, providing both types of basket and telling people which to use and when.


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## cracker666 (Jan 17, 2015)

They have on another forum and typed in depth regarding the revised model.

It is a shame but the eu sticks their nose in. Just like the depowered vacums and kettles.


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## cracker666 (Jan 17, 2015)

The portafilter is unchanged from v1 to v2, I double checked each unit side by side, at my local gaggia dealer.


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## cracker666 (Jan 17, 2015)

Taken from their blog:

New Gaggia Classic

The new Gaggia Classic [RI9403/18] has arrived. When we first talked about this model with Gaggia Italy, I was quite excited but also apprehensive. Why? Gaggia Classic has been a trustworthy espresso machine for almost 30 years. In the UK and Ireland, there are tens of thousands of Classic users and the feedback has always been exceptional.

The Gaggia Classic user hardly changes his/her machine for another; Yes, all machines have a lifetime, but the Gaggia Classic is a CLASSIC and they mostly live on - in your family member's kitchen after you have gone on to get another Gaggia Classic or you have moved on to a more professional machine. This is why I was apprehensive, to say the least, when Italy called me to say that they had to change the Classic, if we were to comply with the new European regulations about power consumption and energy saving rules.

As always, there are things we could improve on machines. We know the Classic well enough to say that we need to have some improvements on the NEW CLASSIC within the cost structures that make the 'Classic' so affordable to the public at large.

FEATURES OF THE CLASSIC

STAINLESS STEEL BODY. We could not compromise on this. The shape and the metal body needs to be there to offer continuity in design, weight and durability.

ALUMINIUM BOILER : This has its advantages but generally not liked by some because of health concerns with Aluminium, although the material used on the boiler was a food grade aluminium.

We thought the proposal to go with the STAINLESS STEEL boiler was the right one.

Stainless Steel boiler will improve also the scale problems we have on the old Classic. Power Rating on the old Classic is 1300 watt. A good power rating.

The Stainless Steel boiler and complying with European regulations meant that the proposal of 1050 watt on the new Classic was acceptable. It takes 30 seconds more to heat from cold than the old version but still acceptable, when you look at the benefits of Stainless Steel.

Steam Valve : The Old Classic has a steam valve that is good but one of the complaints we have about it is that it can drip after a while.

This usually happens when the steam valve is over tightened. This can be an expensive part to be changed. The proposal to change the Steam valve to a short turn valve was more acceptable to improve the performance.

Crema Baskets and the Crema Pin : These changes happened about 5 years ago on the old model. Although the Crema baskets were a great idea, the Crema Pin that regulates the flow was a difficult thing to manage.

The worst complaint in the past few years with the old model was that the pin was easy to lose, when cleaning. The great improvement on the new Classic is that the Crema Pin has been modified and more permanent and is less likely to be lost when cleaning.

The traditional baskets can still be used with thee new model which makes it a really useful feature for those enthusiasts and baristas who want to do all the tamping and fine tuning of the extraction times on the new Classic.

Did you know that the Classic portafilter is made with the same quality of material used for the professional Gaggia machines. They fit all the professional Gaggia machines including the machines made in the 40's and 50's.

The most controversial and difficult change to come to terms with on the Classic is the solonoid valve.

Having said this, in the last 5 years Gaggia Classics have had a smaller solenoid valve which had a tendency to block, if you did not descale the machine very regularly or used water which was not filtered properly.

This meant that the recent users of the Classics were more critical of the Classics in the past few years.

Our engineers see this when we get them for a service.

The proposal was that a mechanical valve is used on the new Classic instead of the solenoid valve and OPV.

A big change for those who want to get into the mechanics of the machine.

The idea of using the mechanical valve is not new.

Gaggia has had mechanical valves in the Gaggia Selecta, Gaggia Coffee and the like and they perform as good as a Classic for extraction of coffee.

The bonus with the mechanical valve is that it is much easier to clean by the user as it is an external part that can be removed and cleaned without opening up the machine and boiler.

We said we have to test the new machine properly before agreeing to this change. We tested the samples for over 6 months and my engineers and I were convinced that it was performing exceptionally well.

I have even done it against a professional Gaggia side by side and tested it at some of our barista training courses as well. Yes, the decision to change was accepted.

Another cosmetic difference is the plastic splitter used on the new Classic filter holder. I would have liked the metal splitter but I am happy to compromise on this on cost grounds.

You can retro fit metal splitters anyway.

We have now started selling the new Classics in our shops. Our chief barista, Joe, in the Castleford shop loves the new Classic. He and his team have been giving it the full works and they are very happy with the new Classic's performance.

The sales have been going well and we have had no negative feedbacks. I love it and will be happy to sell it to anyone, even to my bank manager!. Why not give it a go - test drive it in our show room or in our Gaggia Shop in Castleford . Soon in other shops.

STILL THE BEST IN IT'S CLASS


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mechanical Valve AKA shite!



owlb said:


> Interesting perspectives. Thanks.
> 
> It strikes me however that it only because a successful mass market product because it is (was) capable of producing a professional quality espresso (out of the box), something that you can't really say about similarly positioned machines in the marketplace. That was the USP. If they cared only about profit they'd strip out half the internals, not bother with a 58mm portafilter and knock it out for £79 like Russell Hobbs and Delonghi do.


Well they produced something which was better than nothing or the steam pressure based machines, cheap Moka pots and percolators of the time. To state it's capable of producing a "professional quality" espresso and that's why it was successful, is perhaps not right. At the time it was launched most people had no easy access to quality fresh coffee, mostly it was preground, old, and the quality was poor. The Gaggia classic has been a triumph in marketing. in the same way their marketing of the "Mechanical Valve" (presumable the cheapo spring and ball type), rather than using a decent solenoid valve that won't give problems is absolutely laughable.

I've owned one many many years ago, did it work yes, was it great, not really...was it expensive for what you get....you bet!


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

have you got a 2015 version? have you had access to one? how have you formed your opinion?


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