# seasoning burrs



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

While I await my new grinder, I thought Id ask some questions in preparation. Ive read that you should 'season' the burrs of a new grinder by processing a certain amount of supermarket beans before proper use.

Is there any science behind that? Does it apply to all grinders? How much should you put through?

cheers


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

5/8 lb of coffee a few kilo at least. I would say all grinders. what grinder


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

new mignon......a few kilos sounds like a lot


----------



## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

Have you ordered one of the new models? If so may I ask which did you go for, and where did you order it from?

R


----------



## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

Just use it would be my advice.


----------



## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

"Seasoning The Burrs

If the grinder is new, or the burrs have been recently replaced, the grinder will need to be seasoned. New burrs need time to wear in to a point where they will perform consistently. For most machines it will take at least 4-6 lbs. of coffee for the burrs to become properly seasoned."


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jj-x-ray said:


> .......Is there any science behind that?.......


As far as I can see there is no science behind any of the answers so far - I am not convinced there is any science behind it....

We often hear that a new set of burrs are spec'ed for so many Kg that we'll be dead and buried before they wear out.... yet apparently grinding 5-6 Kg will "do something" to a new set before they work properly!!!


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Drewster said:


> As far as I can see there is no science behind any of the answers so far - I am not convinced there is any science behind it....
> 
> We often hear that a new set of burrs are spec'ed for so many Kg that we'll be dead and buried before they wear out.... yet apparently grinding 5-6 Kg will "do something" to a new set before they work properly!!!


You can use burrs immediately, but ordinarilyvthey need time to settle down and give accuracy to on demand grinders


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> You can use burrs immediately, but ordinarilyvthey need time to settle down and give accuracy to on demand grinders


So what is the science behind "settling down"?

Do the burrs "settle" after a while (requiring a slight tightening of the fixing screws?)

Does the first few Kg of beans remove (machining) burrs from the (blade) burrs?

Are burrs that are "seasoned" physically/measurably different form "unseasoned"?

Are they visibly different?


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Who was who said (ranted) something about burrs needing seasoning just wasn't right and that a new grinder should be, well, ready to grind?


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I always thought 'seasoning' the burrs was more to do with grinding a load of beans through to 'polish' the edges. Rather like running a file over a cut edge of a copper pipe, say, to remove any burrs (you know what I mean).

And I meant to add I sort of thought this kind of went back to the days of not quite so good burrs, and also I didn't think there was any science behind it, it just made sense.


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I think its just about getting the burrs to a consistent point that they grind the same amount of coffee in a set time, when brand new the grind quality is fine but it does it in less time.

So with new burrs you find that you will need to adjust the grind time a lot, once seasoned its consistent.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

It's pretty much the same as running in an engine. The burrs can be as sharp & accurate as you like but it takes use to make them a true matched pair.


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jimbojohn55 said:


> I think its just about getting the burrs to a consistent point that they grind the same amount of coffee in a set time, when brand new the grind quality is fine but it does it in less time.
> 
> So with new burrs you find that you will need to adjust the grind time a lot, once seasoned its consistent.


To refer back to a recent thread about some pseudo-science/snakeoil (Bullsh!t) - that ended up being all about Hi-Fi rather than more general (and including some of the coffee moonshine).

Many Hi-Fi Afficianados claim that you need to bed-in/season speaker wire...... Which was (I think universally) condemned as bullish!t... because there was no genuine science (just some waffle, pseudo-science and snake-oil)...

Can anyone provide any science about bedding in/running in/seasoning burrs.....

If not any proper science - how about a credible explanation about what (might) happen...

Repeating tired old cliches isn't science nor credible....

Burrs need to be seasoned... because burrs need to be seasoned.....

is the equivalent of directional speaker wire or seasoned speaker wire.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Credible explanation? How about 2 burrs moving against each other with a mildly abrasive, mildly lubricating medium between them (lets call that medium coffee beans shall we?). This lubricated abrasive action causes the two burrs to align more exactly than the tollerances used in manufacture creating a matched pair. It's exactly the same science behind engine valves being ground into their seat to create a perfect seal or brake pads wearing in on the disc.

If you don't want to season burrs then don't bother. Just don't be surprised if your grinder is running better after a few kg have been through than when brand new.


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Credible explanation? How about 2 burrs moving against each other with a mildly abrasive, mildly lubricating medium between them (lets call that medium coffee beans shall we?). This lubricated abrasive action causes the two burrs to align more exactly than the tollerances used in manufacture creating a matched pair. It's exactly the same science behind engine valves being ground into their seat to create a perfect seal or brake pads wearing in on the disc.
> 
> If you don't want to season burrs then don't bother. Just don't be surprised if your grinder is running better after a few kg have been through than when brand new.


So you are saying that bedded in/seasoned burrs have worn/abraded against each other?

This is a physical change that would be visible?

So for example Titanium coated burrs would have areas where the titanium had been worn away after seasoning? (I believe the titanium is microscopically thin so any "wear" would be visible)

And (logically) burrs would need to be re-seasoned each time they were replaced after cleaning etc?

Unless they were microscopically aligned when replacing them?


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Drewster said:


> To refer back to a recent thread about some pseudo-science/snakeoil (Bullsh!t) - that ended up being all about Hi-Fi rather than more general (and including some of the coffee moonshine).
> 
> Many Hi-Fi Afficianados claim that you need to bed-in/season speaker wire...... Which was (I think universally) condemned as bullish!t... because there was no genuine science (just some waffle, pseudo-science and snake-oil)...
> 
> ...


Why are you being abrasive, get yourself a couple of brand new grinders, and test them side by side run one for six months (of house use ) leaving the other brand new, then run them together. You may find a distinct difference in the way the grinder performs or it may be just horse shit but at least you would have satisfied your search for some form of credible evidence instead of the "horseshit" we sprout.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Drewster said:


> So you are saying that bedded in/seasoned burrs have worn/abraded against each other?


Yes


Drewster said:


> This is a physical change that would be visible?


Possibly if viewed under a microscope at the correct magnification. While coffee beans are abrasive, they are also very soft compared to the material on the face of the burrs & the oil in them will lubricate & slow wear down even more.


Drewster said:


> So for example Titanium coated burrs would have areas where the titanium had been worn away after seasoning? (I believe the titanium is microscopically thin so any "wear" would be visible)


No. The wear I'm talking about is infinitesimal & is more of a polish really. By the time you can see anything (especially Ti coating being completely removed) your burrs will already most likely be toast & need replacing. You might just be able to feel a slight difference between a seasoned burr & a brand new one but there really shouldn't be much in it.


Drewster said:


> And (logically) burrs would need to be re-seasoned each time they were replaced after cleaning etc?
> 
> Unless they were microscopically aligned when replacing them?


If you were cleaning them on the carrier then no as they'd remount in the same position. If removing them from the carrier (especially if you've shimmed them) then it's possible but since by that time they'd be a matched pair, it'd take alot less than from brand new.


----------



## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Its worth viewing this as I respect Ceado because of their quality products - if you watch the whole thing you will get the gist. others may disagree and say its myths etc but tbh this guy works for a specialist manufacturer.


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Why are you being abrasive, get yourself a couple of brand new grinders, and test them side by side run one for six months (of house use ) leaving the other brand new, then run them together. You may find a distinct difference in the way the grinder performs or it may be just horse shit but at least you would have satisfied your search for some form of credible evidence instead of the "horseshit" we sprout.


My apologies if you thought me abrasive - not my intention. Thought provoking (or I could live with provocative) is where I was aiming ;-)

But with the best with in the world your answer equates to "I cannot provide any real proof so find it for yourself"....

While I haven't carried out your exact experiment - I have swapped a set of burrs for a new one.....

and (prior to swap) I was unable to discern any difference in the burrs - visibly or by touch

and I was unable to notice any difference once the new set went in - either immediately nor after 1-2-3-4 months....

Obviously I changed beans during that time etc and a single instance doesn't provide good science....

So based on my single experience - no difference......

You (with much more experience) tell me there is a difference:-

I am merely asking:

1) What is the difference?

&

2) What (do you think) causes it?


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

*Yes*

OK... Physical change to the seasoned burrs.

*Possibly if viewed under a microscope at the correct magnification. While coffee beans are abrasive, they are also very soft compared to the material on the face of the burrs & the oil in them will lubricate & slow wear down even more.*

*
*

But only very slight... possibly not practically measurable in a domestic environment.

*No. The wear I'm talking about is infinitesimal & is more of a polish really. By the time you can see anything (especially Ti coating being completely removed) your burrs will already most likely be toast & need replacing. You might just be able to feel a slight difference between a seasoned burr & a brand new one but there really shouldn't be much in it.*

*
*

ditto

*If you were cleaning them on the carrier then no as they'd remount in the same position. If removing them from the carrier (especially if you've shimmed them) then it's possible but since by that time they'd be a matched pair, it'd take alot less than from brand new.*



*
But* (as per above) if he differences are infinitesimal....

Surely remounting the burrs would make "even more" difference

(a 1/8 turn difference in the tightening of the mounting screws from previously)

I don't know the tolerances of the threads for the mounting screws and holes.... but I doubt they would be smaller/tighter than the infinitesimal degree we propose as being removed during seasoning?

I must admit I am still unclear about what this seasoning actually achieves?

Does it achieve a more consistent grind size? (implied by JimBob)

Does it achieve a more consistent throughput ie consistent dose (implied by the Chap)

Or what?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Drewster said:


> So what is the science behind "settling down"?
> 
> Do the burrs "settle" after a while (requiring a slight tightening of the fixing screws?)
> 
> ...


I guess people don't know for sure, could be a combination of things, @coffeechap will be speaking from experience, as am I. I would also add that some TiN coated burrs seem to require less/ or almost no seasoning, I can only put this down to the clean up done before the vapour deposition process. My personal suspicion is that there is a certain amount of imperfections caused by manufacture that come off. In the old days it was hard to understand how a smooth leather strop could finish a cut throat razor, you couldn't see the problem it fixed, the stop wasn't as hard as the razor, but it certainly finished the edge....perhaps it's a similar thing.

You can use all grinders immediately, but as coffeechap says, they do seem to "settle down" after 5 or 10kg....becoming more consistent and the grind quality seems better. Subjective and unsatisfying I know, but that's how I find it as well.



> *GENERAL REQUIREMENTS FOR COMPONENTS TO BE COATED*
> 
> - Metal surfaces must be bright and free from burrs, oxide or non-metallic impurities.
> 
> ...


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jimbojohn55 said:


> Its worth viewing this as I respect Ceado because of their quality products - if you watch the whole thing you will get the gist. others may disagree and say its myths etc but tbh this guy works for a specialist manufacturer.


I'll try to look through this later...

While I understand your implication of trusting this because the guy works for a specialist etc....

The same applies to my previous example where specialist manufacturers "claim" that their speaker wire is directional and/or will "burn in" (to be directional) after a period of use..... and obviously they are selling something!


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> I guess people don't know for sure, could be a combination of things, @coffeechap will be speaking from experience, as am I. I would also add that some TiN coated burrs seem to require less/ or almost no seasoning, I can only put this down to the clean up done before the vapour deposition process. My personal suspicion is that there is a certain amount of imperfections caused by manufacture that come off. In the old days it was hard to understand how a smooth leather strop could finish a cut throat razor, you couldn't see the problem it fixed, the stop wasn't as hard as the razor, but it certainly finished the edge....perhaps it's a similar thing.
> 
> You can use all grinders immediately, but as coffeechap says, they do seem to "settle down" after 5 or 10kg....becoming more consistent and the grind quality seems better. Subjective and unsatisfying I know, but that's how I find it as well.


Thanks - I do value the wealth of experience (of you the chap and many others).....

Not withstanding subjective experience it is hard (as a logical man) to reconcile some of the anomalies......

eg

Burrs surface area - a few square inches?

(Bloody great) mounting holes in burrs - A pretty large %age of the burr surface area - lets say 3-4% (possibly more).

Tolerance of burs "flatness" - I don't know but a fraction of 1mm? - In the realms of not visible to the naked eye (ie If it IS then your burrs are ****ed)

Tolerance/accuracy of cutting surfaces - ditto?

But seasoning makes a difference??


----------



## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Apart from any mechanical 'bedding in' would the seasoning process also remove any unintentional residue left on the burrs from machining/packaging/shipping etc that would noticeably affect taste quality?

And hence the recommendation to 'season'?


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Drewster said:


> My apologies if you thought me abrasive - not my intention. Thought provoking (or I could live with provocative) is where I was aiming ;-)
> 
> But with the best with in the world your answer equates to "I cannot provide any real proof so find it for yourself"....
> 
> ...


I am certainly not passing the buck, I have done this and I suppose as davec has said it is down to my own experience, especially with on demand grinders, is that out of the box they are more prone to static and the accuracy of dose is way off UNTIL you have run at least few kilos through the burrs. I don't know the science behind this nor quite frankly do I care, I just know it makes a difference.

However I am totally cool with being proven wrong on this


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

On a lighter note , its quite fun seeing your totally over the top grinder chew trough a couple of kilos of stales before it's subjected to a paltry life of two shots a day .

PS I agree with the post about the removal of machine and packaging residue


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I am certainly not passing the buck, I have done this and I suppose as davec has said it is down to my own experience, especially with on demand grinders, is that out of the box they are more prone to static and the accuracy of dose is way off UNTIL you have run at least few kilos through the burrs. I don't know the science behind this nor quite frankly do I care, I just know it makes a difference.
> 
> However I am totally cool with being proven wrong on this


I can, in the real world, live with that...

Many artisans/artists/technicians are able to "do stuff" without knowing/understanding/caring about "details"...

eg Many Artists/Photographers can draw/paint/take "wonderful" pictures without "knowing" rules of composition & balance etc etc

(Even if they implicitly follow the "rules" without knowing)

I know a chap who can "fix" steam engines (or at least keep them running)... he doesn't know any real science/engineering/mechanics/physics and certainly isn't "qualified".... but if anything goes wrong with the things he is the "go to" geezer to diagnose and fix......


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Drewster said:


> Thanks - I do value the wealth of experience (of you the chap and many others).....
> 
> Not withstanding subjective experience it is hard (as a logical man) to reconcile some of the anomalies......
> 
> ...


The most plausible explanation I've read was that the machining process leaves small artefacts on the edges of the cutting surface (burrs on burrs /LOL) and running the first few kilos of beans gets rid of these. Might not be true but makes sense on the face of it.

Have also read that coated burrs don't need seasoned, maybe something in the coating process 'cleans them up' and gets rid of any artefacts (if it's true they occur from the cutting process)?


----------



## Big Pete (Mar 13, 2018)

Hi ashcroc

this is a great explanation, very well put, easily understood

cheers

Big Pete


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> The most plausible explanation I've read was that the machining process leaves small artefacts on the edges of the cutting surface (burrs on burrs /LOL) and running the first few kilos of beans gets rid of these. Might not be true but makes sense on the face of it.
> 
> Have also read that coated burrs don't need seasoned, maybe something in the coating process 'cleans them up' and gets rid of any artefacts (if it's true they occur from the cutting process)?


That makes perfect sense and would be what I would "suspect" - I've only replaced one set of burrs and even though there was no discernible difference (to me) between old and new

a) I could have been lucky

b) I could have been given an old set of burrs (the old burrs couldn't have been new as it is beyond credible that the seller had crammed loads of coffee grinds and oil behind a new set of burrs)

c) I don't have the experience/sensitivity to compare burrs

It is also likely (if not certain) that burrs would be "cleaned up" via some process/mechanism before Titanium (or "any") coating process..... which would imply that Titanium burrs wouldn't need/would need less "seasoning".....


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Thoroughly interesting discussion. I feel a little guilty as I hadn't meant to stir up a hornet's nest.

As an engineer in real life, I am entirely data driven and cannot afford to go on assumptions in critical areas (coffee probably isn't life or death though). That plus the fact I am still completely inexperienced in the world of coffee grinding means i am keen to understand things in fine detail and probably need more 'evidence' (read babysitting) than old experienced hands who are familiar with the processes.

I agree that the hifi world is poisoned with snake oil and an 'emperors new clothes' mentality (check out cable lifters!). I don't think that's the case here, though given the variables (humidity, temp, bean, user, make, burr size and material) I'm beginning to think the effect would be hard to pick out consistently. Hence the range of opinions.

The matched pair is an interesting analogy. I remember rubbing engine valve stems in my hand with a tool to grind the seats to fit. That was definitely a visible and measurable effect though, but I like the idea that the grinder finds its own 'centre' and settles down.

All I can do I think, is to not process a big bag of beans and instead attempt to use from the off. Then keep some kind of grind journal to record my experience and perhaps note any settling of inconsistencies and the amount of time and beans that have passed.

Once again thanks for everyone's input.


----------



## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

jj-x-ray said:


> Thoroughly interesting discussion. I feel a little guilty as I hadn't meant to stir up a hornet's nest.
> 
> All I can do I think, is to not process a big bag of beans and instead attempt to use from the off. Then keep some kind of grind journal to record my experience and perhaps note any settling of inconsistencies and the amount of time and beans that have passed.
> 
> Once again thanks for everyone's input.


You will have to be aware that the beans will change as they get older, and this will affect your experiences. As will the state of your palate at any given point!

Freezing the beans may counteract the degrading of the beans. But your palate state may always be a variable!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Drewster said:


> To refer back to a recent thread about some pseudo-science/snakeoil (Bullsh!t) - that ended up being all about Hi-Fi rather than more general (and including some of the coffee moonshine).
> 
> Many Hi-Fi Afficianados claim that you need to bed-in/season speaker wire...... Which was (I think universally) condemned as bullish!t... because there was no genuine science (just some waffle, pseudo-science and snake-oil)...
> 
> ...


Drewster, you do not need science! Are you telling us that you have either never had a new grinder or that you have never changed burrs. If you had, you would quite clearly see and understand that in the early days the burrs do not grind with any consistence which is important for an on demand. it is only after an amount of coffee has been ground, the repeatability enters the equation. Someone did take some macro shots of burrs showing (might have been @dsc) the rough edges


----------



## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Why should nano burrs on the cutting edges have any effect on quantity consistency between successive grinds? I certainly have not noticed any anusual inconsistancies with new burrs.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nikko said:


> Why should nano burrs on the cutting edges have any effect on quantity consistency between successive grinds? I certainly have not noticed any anusual inconsistancies with new burrs.


How many sets of new burrs have you had to run in then? You have either had your eyes shut or you are just talking bollocks as usual......


----------



## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

I've had enough new burrs to draw my own conclusions. Try answering the question.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you have noticed no inconsistencies then I can only conclude that you are using low quality grinders. This is a statement: when you buy a new grinder like I have just received an E5, then when you first use it the results are inconsistent. By that I mean that with an on demand grinder, I might set the timer for 5 seconds grinding 17 gms. The next time 5 seconds gives me a different output. Also the distribution into the pf is erratic spraying all over and experiencing static. As you grind more beans, this effect settles down. There is no science needed.


----------



## scottomus (Aug 13, 2014)

ive set up 100's of grinders across many sites and seasoning in is for sure required. We use Anfim Scody 2s and the same beans usually and the first 5-10kg in my professional opinion is always erratic. As said, dont know the science but 100's of hours with them shows me it is required.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk - whilst I agree with your conclusions saying there is 'no science needed' isn't gonna help anyone come to their own conclusions.

Without a scientific approach it is easy enough to simply say that your observations are biased by your belief. That the inconsistencies are insignificant to non existent but you think you notice them because you believe they are there.

That is what 'science' is for, we are all fallible.

To be clear, it is also my observation that burrs settle in, the clumpy Mignon makes it very obvious that the output changes over time.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Dylan said:


> dfk - whilst I agree with your conclusions saying there is 'no science needed' isn't gonna help anyone come to their own conclusions.
> 
> Without a scientific approach it is easy enough to simply say that your observations are biased by your belief. That the inconsistencies are insignificant to non existent but you think you notice them because you believe they are there.
> 
> ...


Not sure what you mean. Surely dfk's (& others) observations have scientific merit even without going into a lab & running experiments just to prove what's already known.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Drewster said:


> (Bloody great) mounting holes in burrs - A pretty large %age of the burr surface area - lets say 3-4% (possibly more).


For me it seems fairly logical that a change to the cutting edge, however small, may affect the grind somewhat.

With regards to the part of your post I quoted - I would love to see a flat burr that had a mounting system that got rid of the screws - it just seems like a blindingly obvious part of the grinder that can be improved. Surely the beans that go through that part of the burrs (which is probably most of them on their journey) must crush up in a less effective way. Yet there seems to be no one who has tried this... feels like an open goal to me...


----------



## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

My experience is that the variation in dose for on demand grinders has not changed meaningfully between new and run-in. If yours is different - fine by me.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

ashcroc said:


> Not sure what you mean. Surely dfk's (& others) observations have scientific merit even without going into a lab & running experiments just to prove what's already known.


Taken as an individual they have little scientific merit, and even taken as a group it is still questionable. It wouldn't be long ago that the group-think would have everyone tamping at 30lbs (This group-think fell out of fashion when 'scientific' tests were done, pulling multiple shots at various tamp pressures and observing no difference - making this a very good example of why science matters), or even less time ago that nutating was considered helpful. Just because an individual or a proportion of the group believes it to be true does not make it true.

It would take scientific method to prove things one way or the other - not easy when making espresso as other variables change but group opinion is not always a very good measure.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Dylan said:


> For me it seems fairly logical that a change to the cutting edge, however small, may affect the grind somewhat.
> 
> With regards to the part of your post I quoted - I would love to see a flat burr that had a mounting system that got rid of the screws - it just seems like a blindingly obvious part of the grinder that can be improved. Surely the beans that go through that part of the burrs (which is probably most of them on their journey) must crush up in a less effective way. Yet there seems to be no one who has tried this... feels like an open goal to me...


An internal screwthread on the burrs might work so long as it tightend in the direction they spun in.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> dfk - whilst I agree with your conclusions saying there is 'no science needed' isn't gonna help anyone come to their own conclusions.
> 
> Without a scientific approach it is easy enough to simply say that your observations are biased by your belief. That the inconsistencies are insignificant to non existent but you think you notice them because you believe they are there.
> 
> ...


Dylan, the simple point that I am making is that you do not need science to see the effects. You may need science to explain or rationale the effects but that bothers me not on jot!


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

ashcroc said:


> An internal screwthread on the burrs might work so long as it tightend in the direction they spun in.


My thinking too! although would need a special tool to remove and would really jam itself into its threads during grinding.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Dylan, the simple point that I am making is that you do not need science to see the effects. You may need science to explain or rationale the effects but that bothers me not on jot!


Fair enough, observing the effects yourself is all the evidence you need for your own opinion certainly.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nikko said:


> My experience is that the variation in dose for on demand grinders has not changed meaningfully between new and run-in. If yours is different - fine by me.


OK, I have no problem with that. Strange though, that someone who probably has a lot more experience than many on here with grinders and a professional barista in post 39 also telling you the same thing, you choose to disagree


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> Fair enough, observing the effects yourself is all the evidence you need for your own opinion certainly.


It is not my opinion......it is a fact......are you seriously suggesting that because a boffin has not crunched numbers or conducted experiments for you, that you refuse to believe your own eyes and findings when presented with a new grinder/burr set. Post 19....someone who makes his living from coffee is telling you.....perhaps there are some other professionals and by that I mean those making their living from selling coffee, can come on and state that new burrs do not need run in


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> It is not my opinion......it is a fact......are you seriously suggesting that because a boffin has not crunched numbers or conducted experiments for you, that you refuse to believe your own eyes and findings when presented with a new grinder/burr set. Post 19....someone who makes his living from coffee is telling you.....perhaps there are some other professionals and by that I mean those making their living from selling coffee, can come on and state that new burrs do not need run in


I am saying every one of our opinions is fallible, regardless of the amount of people committing to it. My opinion is not fact, neither is yours.


----------



## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Dylan said:


> I am saying every one of our opinions is fallible, regardless of the amount of people committing to it. My opinion is not fact, neither is yours.


By that reasoning science in itself is fallible as it's nothing but documenting observations so isn't worth persuing.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> I am saying every one of our opinions is fallible, regardless of the amount of people committing to it. My opinion is not fact, neither is yours.


disagree 100% as you are splitting hairs.......I am telling you, politely and bluntly that it is a fact that my E5 is still not run in properly, resulting in inconsistent grind amounts per set time, a bit of static and slight clumsiness......that is not an opinion, that is a fact and exactly what I would expect to happen


----------



## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Not caught up properly but for what it's worth I'm pretty sure burrs don't need seasoning, I once put salt in my coffee by accident instead of sugar and it was absolutely disgusting.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> By that reasoning science in itself is fallible as it's nothing but documenting observations so isn't worth persuing.


You could argue it is, things that we thought for were true for x, y and z reasons get found out to be untrue or true for different reasons. There's no objective truth, but that doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can I just remind people this is a coffee forum.....you boffins make me laugh! Science can certainly help to a point, but you can take all the science you want.....it ain't going to help you one bit if your basic prep is poor


----------



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Scott Rao had a talk where he explained that unseasoned burrs had significantly lower extraction yield than seasoned, and you could repeatedly figure out how much was needed to season by finding the point where extraction yield stopped increasing.

From my own experience, when I got my Feldgrind for example I had to change the grind setting almost daily in the first weeks towards finer to get the same extraction/flow rate, but then it settled down.

Doesn't really explain why burrs need seasoning, but definitely the effects of seasoning are there and measurable in an objective way.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Can I just remind people this is a coffee forum.....you boffins make me laugh! Science can certainly help to a point, but you can take all the science you want.....it ain't going to help you one bit if your basic prep is poor


What if science helps to explain how to improve your prep?


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Like I say, for my own objectivity and experience I am not going to season the burrs and observe and record any discrepancies.

I'm also wondering if burr size magnifies any effect ie greater area of unseasoned burrs = greater inconsistencies? Which may lead to cheaper machines with smaller burrs not seeing as great an effect...

Either way it looks like I'll have to investigate myself due to the very strong yet varying views in this thread. Thanks.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> Like I say, for my own objectivity and experience I am not going to season the burrs and observe and record any discrepancies.
> 
> I'm also wondering if burr size magnifies any effect ie greater area of unseasoned burrs = greater inconsistencies? Which may lead to cheaper machines with smaller burrs not seeing as great an effect...
> 
> Either way it looks like I'll have to investigate myself due to the very strong yet varying views in this thread. Thanks.


How are you going to identify & record these discrepancies, out of interest?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> What if science helps to explain how to improve your prep?


Spot on Jeebsy......it is an aid, not the be all and end all.....life is a journey not a destination


----------



## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Measuring the effect of burr seasoning on the consistency of ground mass per unit time is quite easy to do. My own results (admittedly not rigorous as I did not check the consistency of the timer and the scales and did not take large enough samples ) showed unchanged variation of +/-5% throughout the "seasoning" period and beyond.

Has anybody actually taken the trouble to investigate this properly?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nikko said:


> Measuring the effect of burr seasoning on the consistency of ground mass per unit time is quite easy to do. My own results (admittedly not rigorous as I did not check the consistency of the timer and the scales and did not take large enough samples ) showed unchanged variation of +/-5% throughout the "seasoning" period and beyond.
> 
> Has anybody actually taken the trouble to investigate this properly?


Nikko, I do not want to seem that I cannot follow your logic, but if your tests are not carried out to the same criteria each time, then the conclusion becomes less meaningful. Quite simply, if someone with a new grinder (on demand) were to set the timer for x seconds, then pull and weigh 5 grinds, and repeat this weekly until say 5 kilos had been through, then that would produce meaningful results. I know what the results will be now though!


----------



## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Nikko, I do not want to seem that I cannot follow your logic, but if your tests are not carried out to the same criteria each time, then the conclusion becomes less meaningful. Quite simply, if someone with a new grinder (on demand) were to set the timer for x seconds, then pull and weigh 5 grinds, and repeat this weekly until say 5 kilos had been through, then that would produce meaningful results. I know what the results will be now though!


That is pretty much what I did. What measurements have you done?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nikko said:


> That is pretty much what I did. What measurements have you done?


In full circle, I have been around coffee for about 18 years now and do not need to be told that a grinder needs seasoned. I do not play with new kit. I am long past that. I simply use it and can remember once dialled in, if the results of the next grind attempts have moved from my own tolerances. I do not hold any belief that a grind with 18.1 grams tastes any better at a 2:1 ratio than a shot weighing at 17.8 grams, but maybe the coffee boffin will disagree and tell me when refracted the difference is obvious, and I reply, tell your taste buds


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> ...I do not hold any belief that a grind with 18.1 grams tastes any better at a 2:1 ratio than a shot weighing at 17.8 grams, but maybe the coffee boffin will disagree and tell me when refracted the difference is obvious, and I reply, tell your taste buds


I don't know why anyone would say such a thing.


----------



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

MWJB said:


> How are you going to identify & record these discrepancies, out of interest?


I'm guessing through weight differences for a timed dose. The new Eureka mignon should have a digitally displayed timer which can be consistently set, so I just look at weight scatter.....unless someone can suggest some other way


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> I'm guessing through weight differences for a timed dose. The new Eureka mignon should have a digitally displayed timer which can be consistently set, so I just look at weight scatter.....unless someone can suggest some other way


That's cool, but it will only tell you how much it will grind in a fixed time. Not much about the grind itself.

Might still be useful, set it to known point, grind 10 doses. After 10-15kg, reset to that point & repeat. Be useful maybe to see how shot times (at the same dose & ratio) differ between the 2 sets of grinds/shots.


----------

