# Supermarket ground



## brun

I've got my first espresso machine for Xmas, a gaggia classic, I drink americanos at the moment but ill try an espresso soon.

I know its frowned upon on here, but I can't afford a grinder at the moment so pre ground is my only option.

I'm wondering what's the best available I can get at a supermarket, would it be illy or maybe lavazza ?

I've had some stuff from has bean before for our filter machine at work but with the postage its a bit pricey for me at the moment

In the future ill get a grinder but funds don't allow that at the minute


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## lookseehear

If you can't stretch to roast and ground coffee from hasbean/coffeebeanshop/jamesgourmetcoffee etc then I believe some of the best coffee at the supermarket would be Union or Taylor's. I'm not a fan of illy or lavazza but you could give them a try and see what you think.


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## brun

I'm using taylors at the moment and its very good actually


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## brun

The problem is I wouldn't use a bag a week and the whole point of has bean etc is that its freshly roasted, if I bought a few bags to average the postage out better the last bag or 2 wouldn't be that fresh, if I only buy one bag it costs 7quid upwards


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## fatboyslim

Taylor's espresso is 2 for £6 in most supermarkets including Sainsbury's.


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## Keef

Sorry for the hijack.......

Slim, I've got a LARGE family gathering tomorrow afternoon, I need to get some more beans in the morning. What would be a good safe bet Taylors bean for the majority? I'll take a trip to Sainsbury's


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## emin-j

Try this place £1.50 delivery for any amount.

https://twodaycoffee.co.uk/


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## fatboyslim

If you need beans, Taylors range is pretty limited in supermarkets especially Sainsbury's. Lazy sunday beans are light roasted and smooth. Rich Italian medium/dark roast, rich and full body, but my choice would be Espresso beans which are perfectly good for filter or french press. Dark roast with good sweetness.

Guatemalan cloud forest pre-ground is also great.


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## brun

Sadly the coffee from two day is more expensive, prices are per 100g, anyone tried m&s espresso or any others, I wonder if their are any roasters local so I don't have to pay postage, I'm from st helens


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## bobbytoad

I could never get supermarket ground to work in my Classic - i found the pour to be ridiculously fast.

If you're near a town have you considered Whittards, they will grind their 'fresh beans' for you which i found to be the best option untill i got a grinder


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## robmx

I'm in the same boat, but I got bought a fair amount of whittards pre ground stuff as a gift. I'm no expert, but it tastes ok. I also cant see any difference with pour times etc as I've got the pressurised baskets that gaggia now supplies with the classic.

If I'm honest I'm not gonna worry too much about it until I've bought the proper double basket.


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## RDW

bobbytoad said:


> I could never get supermarket ground to work in my Classic - i found the pour to be ridiculously fast.


I also got nowhere with pre-ground while waiting for my grinder to arrive. I guess it will always be too coarse (if they made it finer it might choke some machines, so they just sell something that 'always works' but is never close to ideal).

How about one of those ceramic burr hand grinders like the Porlex? They go for about £30 and reportedly do the job very well (but need a bit of effort!).

You might want to check if anywhere local (like a coffee shop) sells fresh beans. I can get Square Mile cheaper per gram than Illy.


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## brun

I'm getting perfect pour rates with taylors its spot on, but I'd like to try what's out there rather than sticking to one brand, the Ikea stuff I tried comes out way too fast and its horrible

I've now got the proper baskets, thanks 'gaggiamanualservice'

I presumed the hand grinders wouldn't be very good and a lot of effort


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## rodabod

I've got a Porlex Mini from creamsupplies online, and it's fantastic. Lovely quality, and I get a great grind. I'd take one of them plus a bag of fresh beans over seven bags of pre-ground.


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## chimpsinties

I've got no idea how anyone uses pre-ground coffee. I had to buy some because I was away from home and needed some coffee for my AeroPress. I got some apparently "espresso" ground finest from Tesco. Now I'm home I've discovered it's absolutely useless in the Classic. You can tell when you're tamping it that it's just not forming a seal at all. Hideously fast pour and horrible coffee. I've given up and am just going to use my AeroPress til I can get some proper beans delivered from CoffeeBeanShop this week.


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## fatboyslim

Whittards beans are not fresh roasted. I'd be interested to know exactly how old they are.

Also the grind they do for you won't necessarily work any better than supermarket pre-ground.

Also try thinking about using a single basket on a gaggia classic as these need a coarser grind anyway. We also test our espresso grind on a single basket rather than a double to 'gauge' where the grind is at.


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## MikeHag

fatboyslim said:


> Also try thinking about using a single basket on a gaggia classic as these need a coarser grind anyway.


Interesting. I don't use a single basket but on the occasions I have done it has required a finer grind than a double shot. Think I'll have a play with my single basket.


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## rodabod

My single basket runs faster too, ie. needed a finer grind. That's running ~ 7g versus ~14g for the double. It's also soggy, but that's to be expected if the basket tries to retain more liquid, and there's less coffee to soak it up.


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## ChrisP

I think it would be a complete waste of money putting supermarket pre ground coffee through an espresso machine as there is no way it will be the correct grind for your machine. You'd be best using supermarket coffee in a cafatiere and keep it well away from the espresso machine. You'll get a far better cuppa. Even buying pre ground from HasBean would be a waste of money. Grinding your own coffee at home is the only possible way to get proper extraction when using an espresso machine. Slightly too coarse or too fine and the coffee will be dreadful.


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## MikeHag

Oh poop. You have a nice new machine so use it as best you can, pre-ground or not. Always room for improvement later.


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## ChrisP

I must admit though that I would probably be shoving some pre ground through it if I'd got a new machine for Christmas


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## vintagecigarman

+1 on that!

I spent years using shop-bought pre-ground in the pre-internet days before I realised how important fresh beans and the grind are. You'll get coffee that's drinkable, but way below par, so don't let the absence of a grinder put you off using the machine - but you do need to set yourself a target of getting a good grinder at some stage (the sooner the better).

For what it's worth,in my pre-grinder days, I used to rate Lavazza as the best store-bought pre-ground.


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## brun

I will get a grinder eventually, maybe for my birthday, but I can't afford it at the minute


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## onemac

I think the majority of us would like a top of the range Merc/BMW or Jag for Christmas but the reality is that we can't really afford it can we?

I've just got a Classic for Christmas and in the absence of any spare cash I'm using supermarket stuff at the moment. A quick look through this thread and indeed the forum in general shows that for every question there are at least two answers - like my 'nakedness' thread, I was advised to either add more coffee to the basket or try less to resolve one of my many issues. I spend whole evenings online checking out how I can improve my shots using the equipment supplied in the box. I know now that I'm never going to get that 'God' shot until some serious further investment which begs the question; if a manufacturer sells an espresso machine and you pick up some espresso ground coffee from the supermarket, 'which one of the two are supplying goods that are not fit for purpose'???

The excitement of my machine purchase has been diminished by not being able to use it 'properly', unlike the microwave/washing machine/vacum cleaner/television and other household items that have worked (with a bit of fiddling) right out of the box and without spending at least the same amount again. Which is why I have ordered some pre-roasted and ground coffee (specifically for espresso machines) from one of the companies that sponsor this site. After all - they should be able to provide a more precise grind eh? I can dream.

So I'm now researching grinders and wondering if I should take the wife and kids on holiday this year or get a new grinder? On my travels round the interweb last night one of you suggested I might like a laugh and look at the blog 'Espresso!My Espresso! (Thanks Mike). I started at page 9 and finished at page 130 many hours later, totally despondent and wondering whether to cut my losses and sell my Classic on fleabay. I reckon you'll have to keep your eyes open for the answer but in the meantime I shall strive for the God shot with my new tamper, pre-roasted and ground coffee and a couple of shot glasses conveniently marked to show me how completely wrong I'm getting it.

Al


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## brun

Onemac what is the date on your bag of taylors and how are you measuring your shots at the moment


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## Glenn

brun said:


> I presumed the hand grinders wouldn't be very good and a lot of effort


They are surprisingly good. Better consistency than some electric grinders costing 10 times the price.

Depending how fine you grind it takes 30 seconds or thereabouts to get 18g coffee


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## Glenn

The majority of the roasters featured on this site have listened to feedback and their espresso grind is pretty good.

Most have a home machine they test it on, as their wholesale customers are wholebean only


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## onemac

Taylors finished and am on to a can of Illy - a 'present' from the wife. I'm not measuring the shots as such but using a teaspoon to fill a glass, then I'm using a paper clip to loosen the grounds before filling the portafilter, tapping down, adding more grounds and levelling the basket. Tamping is still with the plastic thing that impersonates a tamper.

I'll tell you what though - got the most gorgeous puck today........ had to answer a knock at the door and when I got back was horrified to see the portafilter still in the machine. Tapped it out and although it was a bit crumbly, it seemed perfectly dry.

Al


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## lookseehear

Love the post Al! I can completely understand the frustration at buying an espresso machine and some espresso ground coffee, yet getting an acceptable espresso is nigh on impossible!

I think the problem is that there's no benchmark in espresso (or coffee in general) that can be applied rigorously. There are scae standards but I don't think you could contact trading standards on that basis! It's one of my bug bears that costa can advertise as 'coffee lovers coffee' yet they are a franchise with a huge lack of consistency across the board. They aren't the worst offenders by any means but it highlights that any cafe or coffee retailer can claim whatever they want about their product and they know there's very very little that anyone can do about it.

The other difficulty that has been mentioned regarding pre-ground is that if it's fine enough to choke even one customer's machine then they're going to have complaints. I would imagine that hasbean etc have to air on the side of caution with the grind too as there will be people using pressurised portafilters with the coffee.

These are just some of the many reasons that the only recommendation that will be received from the members here is to buy freshly roasted beans from a reputable roaster and buy a grinder which will grind fine and consistent enough (iberital mc2 for electric, hario or porlex for manual).


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## drk

I love wood fired pizza, sitting on a river bank in Tuscany sipping fine chianti but I can't always have it... but taking the effort to make a nice tomato sauce, kneading a pizza dough and using a slate can be pretty satisfying.

The same goes for coffee.... it's not always possible to get a pro-barista using £5000 worth of equipment to pull the perfect shot, but I can make a good attempt at nice coffee using what I have available at the time. Coffee is a luxury which I don't need so I'll go without if I can't source nice beans.

In my mind it's far better to take 150 turns using a hand-grinder and fine beans every 3 days than having 3 cups of coffee everyday, potentially grown and sourced unethically, and processed without care.


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## ChrisP

Yeah it's not a job for trading standards. The machine is fit for purpose......you just haven't bought the rest of the gear to go with it. You wouldn't buy a car and then complain that it didn't do 200mph would you? If you want a machine that does what it says on the tin and works with the items it was supplied with then you need to buy a Nespresso or similar. They actually make a pretty decent coffee but I wouldn't drink an espresso produced by one.

Everyone's idea of an espresso is different and everyone's idea of a god shot is different. People may refer to a shot they've made as a god shot but another person might not regard it as a god shot. All of the coffee shop chains sell espresso but I personally wouldn't regard any of them as an espresso. I'd never buy an espresso from a coffee shop chain as I know it will be dreadful yet others who have never had good espresso probably think its great. I've seen people buy an espresso from a vending machine in a paper cup at a petrol station before!

If getting into the world of coffee and wanting to produce excellent coffee then you need to do your research and you'll soon learn that to get an awesome shot of espresso you will easily spend 1k and need more than a machine to make it on.

If buying supermarket coffee and running it though an espresso machine it will not produce anything much better than Starbucks......the only thing you could improve is to get the quantity of espresso to your liking and the texture of the milk spot on. Which will manage to improve a latte massively.

Coffee roasters will never be able to grind coffee correctly to be used in an espresso machine. I can literally turn the grind setting wheel on my Mazzer about 2mm one way or another and it will make the difference between a good shot and an excellent (god) shot. You can't get that accuracy and then sell it to thousands of people as my pump might run at 8.9 bar and someone else's with the exact same machine may run at 9.4 bar. One would produce a nice shot and the other it could choke the machine.

To be honest this forum is pretty lax on geekyness too. Other coffee forums are way more finicky getting into setting brew temp, pump pressure, pre infusion times, weighing beans, distributing grinds with paper clips and such all in the name of perfection.

Al.......if you can't afford the grinder I really would suggest maybe selling the machine and buying a Nespresso.......for little money and no hassle they produce a far better coffee than that of most big coffee shop chains.


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## brun

I've had some pretty good coffee (americano) from chains but your right sometimes it can be rubbish


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## brun

Onemac are you using the supplied measuring spoon, I've not seen you mention it


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## ~ Sea Chief ~

You can afford a burr grinder, if that is you dont scoff at 2nd hand items/ ebay etc. I've said this on another thread too..

I recently got a Classic as well and I got a Russell Hobbs basic burr grinder for £20 new (just unused) from ebay to get me going. Ok so at no.1 (finest setting) its too coarse, but putting thru again on '2' then again on '4' (mixing well between grinds) is a bit of a faff.. but Ive tested directly against a professional grinder.. and there is absolutely no difference in the shot. Absolutely identical crema quality/ crema thickness > coffee taste.

Only thing is you do need to treat it say, a bit like making love to a beautiful woman.. first plug her in and fiddle with the flank until you hit the spot. Then you have a good go with a jolly good stir afterwards/ finishing off with another quick whizzing.

Seriously ground coffee will lose 50% of its taste after only a few times opening the bag IMO.


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## MikeHag

Wow, opinions vary quite dramatically. I'd hate to see someone get rid of an espresso machine because they feel they have to spend over £1000. Twice now I've bought a gaggia classic plus a decent grinder for under £200... both times this equipment was able to produce amazing espresso in my humble opinion. And if I really had needed to spend less I would have been able to buy the classic for £100 and a hario slim mill for £25, and still have been making better espresso than 95% of cafes I've been to, because the cafe staff may have good equipment but they don't know how to do simple things like adjust the grind properly.

Good coffee... it's what we all want to see more of, I believe, and it's got to be a step in the right direction when people buy machines then start coming onto this forum. So I dearly hope nobody is discouraged by the different levels of perfectionism expressed by folks on here. Rome wasn't built in a day, so please keep at it in whatever form. Anyone remember a few months ago, there was a new member, a student, who didn't have much money and had been brewing coffee in her tights?







What a star. I'm sure she will eventually upgrade to hold-ups when she can afford it


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## onemac

I hear what you're saying Chris.

I like the car analogy but I wouldn't expect a car to do 200mph unless it was stated that it could! I can easily afford a grinder and I have spent most of this evening doing the research - it's down to the MC2 or the Virtuoso. Is the Virtuoso worth an extra £50 ??? Answers further down this thread please.

I think you all know the road that I'm now on - I'm climbing Coffee Mountain - I'm actually at the first rise and there ahead of me is Starbucks - I'm currently striving for Starbucks quality believe it or not and occasionally (very occasionally), I'm getting it. But it's a very steep mountain and I'm sure there are more rises to conquer before I even reach base camp.

I've tried the espresso from a Nespresso machine and whilst it's better than Starbucks, I could never improve on that. The chap from 'Espresso! My Espresso!' asks 'Are you anal enough for espresso'? My answer - too right son - I'm your man.

@brun - no I'm not using it. Reason is that all the gen seems to suggest filling the basket, tapping, levelling and tamping. Using the suggested dose and the measuring spoon choked the machine - I had to use the lightest of tamps with the imitation plastic tamper before I got a decent extraction rate and the end result was very acidic - a bit like really bitter green grapes with an edge.

@Mike - hurry up and open your coffee house please, we need to talk









So the upshot is, the sooner you all can answer my grinder question (and I'm still looking through the forum), the sooner I can get my order in.

Al


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## ChrisP

Yeah don't get me wrong. I think it's great people are wanting to produce their own coffee and better themselves and a forum is a great place to do it. I started on forums and YouTube. I'm just really passionate and I've invested a lot of time and money in perfecting my setup and skills and I want people to know how good coffee can be.

Grinding by hand, putting it through a grinder several times....whatever your method......you may be able to get a good coffee but consistency is essential and this will never happen without good quality machinery.........an yes you can have all the gear in the world but if you ain't got the skills you'll not make a good coffee. Second hand grinders are a good call but burrs are expensive.

I've had coffee at just about every cafe, bar, restaurant in Leeds and there are only two places where they make coffee as good as mine and that is Laynes and Opposite. I don't buy coffee from the likes of Starbucks, costa or similar as their coffee is nowhere near mine and I mean NOWHERE NEAR. If I produced a shot like Starbucks do it would go down the drain. I'm not trying to be big headed I'm just trying to get accross how good a coffee can be when all elements are correct.

I think what I'm trying to say is if you want to produce a true, proper, exceptional god shot then you will need to buy a decent grinder and machine and use a lot of decent, fresh coffee experimenting with different things. Buying pre ground supermarket coffee and putting it in an espresso machine won't produce anything anywhere near what is possible. I understand you've gotta start somehwhere and everyones budgets are different but I'd say grinding at home is essential.......fresh beans are great but you can still get a better shot than a cafe by grinding your own stale beans. I've tried pre ground coffee and it is certainly better brewed in a cafatiere than as an espresso.

Which virtuoso are you looking at?


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## fatboyslim

I will always offer a very good recommendation for the virtuoso preciso. This grinder was way above my budget having acquired a baby class cheaply off ebay, but after much reading and even trying to use a Santo commercial grinder at work then bringing it home to try on my machine; I decided that you NEED to invest on a grinder if nothing else. I considered the Ascaso and the Ibertal but after reading a very lengthy review on coffee geek about the preciso and after hearing the general respect and love of Baratza as a company I decided to push the boat and out buy what I thought was a stupidly expensive grinder.

Long story short....best decision ever!


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## vintagecigarman

This has proved to be a very interesting thread, going way beyond the original shout for help.

I have total sympathy for the thousands of people who will have either have bought or been given an espresso machine this Christmas, only to discover that they can't make great coffee with it straight away. Making good espresso is hard work, no doubt about it - it needs time, patience, research and a lot of trial and error. And it is for this reason that a lot of espresso machines find their way to the back of a cupboard, as unloved and forgotten about as a sandwich toaster, after a couple of months. It would be great if manufacturers told the public this, but they don't. Those who do serious research before buying their first machine should hopefully encounter the grinder advice in time to realise just how essential they are.

That said, their must be an astonishing number of people out there who are satisfied with the coffee that they are making using pre-ground in their machines. (If everyone was dissatisfied, the word would have leaked out by now and no-one would be buying the machines!) Hell, I used to be one of them! I've just dug out the maker's instruction book that I got when I bought my La Pav Pro way back in 1995, and guess what - not a mention of grinding beans fresh, but the coffee I made was still way better than that available in most UK outlets at the time. (It wasn't unusual for cafes to be using instant!) It was a fair few years before I realised how much difference freshly roast and ground could make.)

I think that it's important to remember that most of us are on this forum because we are coffee enthusiasts. It's easy to knock the quality of coffee in Starbucks and the other chains, but they have played a great part in introducing the public to the concept (if not the reality) of quality coffee. I think that they are the primary drivers behind the amazing diversity of espresso machines currently available. Butif Starbucks and similar are what people like - or, rather, are prepared to accept, then good luck to them - there's no point in being elitist about it. It's like wine - doesn't matter how much the pundits say, there's still a thriving market for 3 bottles for £10 at Asda!

We may be losing sight of the original poster's plea for help. He knows that he should have a grinder, but he hasn't. So what's the best he can do? Up to now, I think that Glenn's suggestion of buying pre-ground from a quality roaster may provide the best answer. It won't be perfect, but the OP knows that, but it will keep him in the coffee community.


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## jimbow

onemac said:


> ...
> 
> @brun - no I'm not using it. Reason is that all the gen seems to suggest filling the basket, tapping, levelling and tamping. Using the suggested dose and the measuring spoon choked the machine - I had to use the lightest of tamps with the imitation plastic tamper before I got a decent extraction rate and the end result was very acidic - a bit like really bitter green grapes with an edge.
> 
> ...


I think you have illustrated the limitations of pre-ground perfectly. When you are in control of the grind yourself you will be able to grind finer to address the sour taste you are experiencing. Try not to feel disheartened, it will come and the grinder definitely will help by giving you control over one of the most important variables.

I think domestic espresso machine manufacturers could do more to set consumer expectations regarding the skill and additional equipment required to get good results using their machines. I think many domestic machines are sold as kitchen appliances with very little distinction made between super automatic/bean-to-cup machines and traditional semi-automatic machines. Many people new to espresso do not realise they need to pair the machine with a burr grinder and additional equipment to achieve the results they expect.


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## onemac

Well this has been an interesting thread indeed but reading through it all again I feel I have to apologise to *brun *for hijacking his thread big style. I do however have to thank him as well - and to the rest of you who have contributed in a valued way.

My answer to the original question is that I've had acceptable to reasonable shots from supermarket pre-ground espresso using Taylors and Illy. On the other hand I've produced some stuff that paint-stripper manufacturers would have been proud of.

I've learned that although supermarket pre-ground espresso is ok, it's hardly likely to produce consistent enough results to satisfy even the basic level of palate we all seem to start off with. Pre-ground from a reputable quality roaster should be better, but in the end there are massive steps to be gained from grinding your own beans - whether bought from a reputable quality roaster or roasted yourself. I've also learned that you need to spend a few bob on vital accessories like a tamper, baskets, naked portafilters, shot glasses and scales etc. and that Starbucks is socially unacceptable in a classless sort of way









So it's onwards and sideways with the tough decision on whether to purchase an Iberital MC2 or a Baratza Virtuoso (and of course beans from a reputable quality roaster). Some further research is in order methinks.

Thanks to all for your input and especially to *brun* for his patience.

Al


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## chimpsinties

onemac said:


> So it's onwards and sideways with the tough decision on whether to purchase an Iberital MC2 or a Baratza Virtuoso (and of course beans from a reputable quality roaster). Some further research is in order methinks.


As a very happy owner of a Virtuoso I'll give you some advice on this point. If you're getting the grinder to use solely for espresso then go for the Iberital. The Virtuoso is great and I use it every day and it'll easily grind fine enough but it simply doesn't have the accuracy you'll desire as your skills improve. For that you'll have to go for the Virtuoso Preciso which is about twice the price (which I intend to upgrade to this year sometime). The reason I like my Virtuoso is because I grind for my Classic in the morning then for my AeroPress in the day and have to switch between two settings all the time.


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## rodabod

I'm going to keep this quite short, partly as I know I'm repeating myself.

-At the end of the day, it's the taste of the coffee that comes out that matters. I'm not fussed if it was a wet puck or a 30s shot, as long as I remember what I've done and manage consistency.

-Coffee shop fresh ground is not really comparable. Monmouth ground me two bags on their machine in an emergency on two separate occasions and (with a bit of luck!) got the grind almost perfect. Those were great shots and were only getting stale about a week later (airtight, fridge).

-I'd skip enough bags of supermarket pre-ground to buy a £30 Porlex Mini and some good, fresh beans if I were on a budget. That's the point where you'll be able to pour fantastic tasting shots without a hint of sourness.


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## shaunclarke

onemac said:


> I think the majority of us would like a top of the range Merc/BMW or Jag for Christmas but the reality is that we can't really afford it can we?
> 
> I've just got a Classic for Christmas and in the absence of any spare cash I'm using supermarket stuff at the moment. A quick look through this thread and indeed the forum in general shows that for every question there are at least two answers - like my 'nakedness' thread, I was advised to either add more coffee to the basket or try less to resolve one of my many issues. I spend whole evenings online checking out how I can improve my shots using the equipment supplied in the box. I know now that I'm never going to get that 'God' shot until some serious further investment which begs the question; if a manufacturer sells an espresso machine and you pick up some espresso ground coffee from the supermarket, 'which one of the two are supplying goods that are not fit for purpose'???
> 
> The excitement of my machine purchase has been diminished by not being able to use it 'properly', unlike the microwave/washing machine/vacum cleaner/television and other household items that have worked (with a bit of fiddling) right out of the box and without spending at least the same amount again. Which is why I have ordered some pre-roasted and ground coffee (specifically for espresso machines) from one of the companies that sponsor this site. After all - they should be able to provide a more precise grind eh? I can dream.
> 
> So I'm now researching grinders and wondering if I should take the wife and kids on holiday this year or get a new grinder? On my travels round the interweb last night one of you suggested I might like a laugh and look at the blog 'Espresso!My Espresso! (Thanks Mike). I started at page 9 and finished at page 130 many hours later, totally despondent and wondering whether to cut my losses and sell my Classic on fleabay. I reckon you'll have to keep your eyes open for the answer but in the meantime I shall strive for the God shot with my new tamper, pre-roasted and ground coffee and a couple of shot glasses conveniently marked to show me how completely wrong I'm getting it.
> 
> Al










You summed it up for me!


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## brun

Nice to see so many replies to a topic posted by a newcomer, shame many have missed my original question, seriously guys I will be looking at grinders when my loan is paid off around April, but until then I just can't afford it, I still live at home with my parents!

I'm new to this espresso world really, as I said I drink americano I've never actually had an espresso yet, a year ago I didn't even really like coffee, now I love the stuff but I'm still a newb go easy with me please lol

Thanks for all replies though its given me some grinder knowledge for the future, all useful information

I've bought some lavazza and illy, let's see how I do with those, if they pull too fast then so be it, mistake made and I guess ill have to order from hasbean etc, but at present Xmas and new year has wiped me out financially

My gaggia won't be going to the back of a cupboard or on eBay, I like learning new things and this is something I can clearly read a lot about on this forum, baby steps though, I'm new to everything I don't have hundreds to splash on something so new to me

I'll have to read up about manual grinders as they seem cheap but I don't like the sound of em if I'm honest

Keep the info coming guys, thanks


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## brun

@onemac I've been using the supplied spoon with no probs


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## Filthy_rich85

Hi Brun

When I started my journey into proper coffee I started with a very cheap Argos own brand espresso machine and used both Illy and Lavazza, at the time I thought they were both great coffees an for a beginner into the massive world of coffee it's a good start. If you find some spare money I would definitely recommend Has Bean, they will grind it for you if you still lack a grinder.

I too was short on funds when I realised I needed to grind fresh beans to get the most from the coffee so I got myself a Porlex hand grinder for £30. It was a great purchase and even though I am now awaiting the delivery of my new Iberital MC2 I will continue to use it for my Chemex and Aeropress for work.


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## Spacegazer

I have used Taylor's and Lavazza in my espresso machine, almost exclusively when I first got it, and it wasn't all that bad. The Lavazza Espresso is very fine and in my machine clogs very easily so hardly any tamping pressure can be applied. The Taylor's espresso, along with the #6 Hot Lava Java and the #5 After Dark are ground a bit more coarsely, so more tamping pressure can be applied. These are probably more suited to press pots but I used them with no problems in my espresso machine. The coffee wasn't too bad actually, and americano's were pretty good, although the espresso wasn't the best, but for me was better than both Costa's and Starbuck's.

The Lavazza produces the most crema and I quite like it, so that is definitely one to try...

Hope this helps, and glad to hear your machine is staying!!!

Regards

James

P.S - Not intending to hijack the thread or anything, but like Brun, I am also looking at grinders, and wondering if the reduced cost is worth the extra effort, or whether to go with a cheaper electric burr grinder such as this Krups (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Krups-Expert-GVX231-Coffee-Grinder/dp/B0002H2IOM/ref=sr_1_1?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1325623606&sr=1-1) what do you think?


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## brun

So how did the hand grinder work out, is it loads of effort, it sounds it, is the difference really that great ?


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## Filthy_rich85

The larger Porlex can hold upto 30g and states 120 turns to grind a full hopper. Of course this is depending on grind setting. The only thing which frustrated me was having to change the grind between drip for work and espresso at home because it doesn't really have notches to tell you the grind setting. I'm sure if you were to use it solely for one brewing method it would be fine. I didn't find it too annoying to grind by hand


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## Filthy_rich85

Sorry to answer your second question. Yes I found a massive difference between pre ground and fresh ground to be that appealing I went and spent a lot of money on an electric burr grinder for consistency. Pre ground is very unpredictable as you can't guarantee each bag is ground to the same level


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## wastedhours

On the original point, I didn't have a grinder for the first 6 months with my machine, and had rather reasonable results with Lavazza and the espresso-grind coffee you get in tins from Costa (yes, I know it wont be the "best" or the most fresh, but I'm not exactly rocking a GS3, and it gave very drinkable, predictable results which is what I wanted as a new machine user).

I've also run some Taylors cafetiere grind through my old DeLonghi and, whilst the pull was quick and the coffee comparatively weak, it was still night and day better than what I was drinking before I got the machine.

Obviously it wont be as good as freshly ground (and the grinder I have is £36 on Amazon). I would recommend it when finances allow. I've been working my way through the whole bean offerings on the high street (supermarkets, Whittards, Starbucks [pleasantly surprised with a few of their, less burnt, offerings]) over the past 18 months.

Have fun with the machine - my first one I got two years ago this Christmas and it has changed my life (and I'm quite serious on that point)!


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## brun

I was originally going to get a 40 quid grinder but I've read a lot of reviews saying they don't go fine enough for espresso ?


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## wastedhours

I can only talk about that one I linked above as I've not used any others in that price range, but I've not noticed any problems with the fineness of the grind, in fact I quite often grind it too fine and get a really slow pour (correlation/causation etc, but it seemed to be the only difference). Once it's dialled in, you'll usually get an espresso grind at settings 2-5 (out of the 17 burr positions).

Again, I'm not sporting any really expensive equipment, and I'm not a professional barista, but my experience with it has been good.


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## brun

If I can get a burr grinder for that price which works properly I might make the switch next month


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## MikeHag

brun, you have probably worked this out already but it seems you have at least four grinder options:

1. get a hand grinder soon (e.g. Hario slim mill or Porlex), which you can upgrade to electric later

2. get a cheap electric grinder soon, which you can upgrade to a better one later

3. save for a while and then get something like an Iberital MC2 for something like £80-100, and upgrade to an even better grinder later (most people do upgrade sooner or later)

4. save for longer and get a really good grinder that you won't want to upgrade for a few years, if ever.

As you want to get cracking with making espresso then options 3 and 4 are out, so it's between 1 and 2. I have read several posts on here where experienced baristas have advised people to go for 1 rather than 2. I can't advise as I haven't used either for espresso, but I can tell you that 1 is going to be around half the price of 2... but it is a bit of a pain to grind manually.


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## brun

That's the thing, don't know if I could honestly put the effort in, also where are mc2's for 80quid, I presume second hand ?


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## Spazbarista

You can have mine for £55. It's done me proud for ages, but I've bitten the bullet and spent an obscene sum on a Mazzer


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## ChrisP

I got a brand new Mazzer mini E for £350. Put it through the business so saved and extra 17.5% off that price too!


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## Spazbarista

Blimey! Where did you find it at that price? Is that including vat?


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## brun

Any pics and info on it ?


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## ChrisP

It was 2-3 years ago so i assume theyve gone up a little. Yeah it included VAT. It was from Cafe Society........the main UK dealer for Brazilia. They just happen to be based around a 5 min drive from my house. It's where I got my cups, saucers, tamper, grinder........etc. I don't know whether they always sell them at that price or whether it was just because I was local and was interested in a machine at the time. They are trade really but didn't seem to mind showing me around their showroom and that. Nice setup they have there. They let me in the showroom after closing and we made espresso on most of their machines. They had around 10 in at the time. Nice bunch of guys.


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## brun

Seems cheap to me


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## garydyke1

They have indeed gone up!

http://www.caffesociety.co.uk/mazzer-mini-electronic-grinder-doser.html


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## ChrisP

The deal is a little hazy as it was a while ago but I know I paid well under list price. Nobody pays list price though


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## brun

Although the hand grinders are cheap I think I would prefer to put the money towards a proper one, though I suppose I can always sell it on afterwards

Do you not waste a lot when using grinders, at the mo using pre ground I don't waste anything at all, do you save any extra grounds you do or chuck em ?


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## wastedhours

I always level the grind in the basket over the container the grinder grinds into, so that any extra in the basket is saved.


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## MikeHag

Not much waste really. Just make sure it goes in the basket!







No need to do the whole 'level off and discard excess' thing.


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## brun

Tried illy, 15 to 18 seconds for a double, too quick eh, tastes ok though


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## ChrisP

18 secs is a bit quick but if it tastes ok then it's ok. Try more coffee or a harder tamp or a mix of both.


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## brun

the last one i did i tamped really hard, no joy, ive got scales on the way, every time i try and use more though its touching the screen and the PF wont lock into place cos too much is in the basket, ill try again tonight/tomorrow


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## chimpsinties

Did you see this thread? http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?4846-Help-with-my-nakedness!!!

The guy has a similar issue to you where he just isn't getting great pours from supermarket. I think after the 25th time of someone saying to him, "You're going to have to get a grinder mate" he buckled and bought one.

Are you using the pressurised basket/PF like he is? If so tamping hard/light or filling the basket probably won't make one jot of difference. Have a read.


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## MikeHag

> The guy has a similar issue to you where he just isn't getting great pours from supermarket. I think after the 25th time of someone saying to him, "You're going to have to get a grinder mate" he buckled and bought one.


There is a certain inevitability to these things, isn't there


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## brun

no im using normal baskets


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## brun

Illy, 18g, tamped hard, got it to ~25s!


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## MikeHag

brun said:


> Illy, 18g, tamped hard, got it to ~25s!


Tasted good?


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## brun

Yup, americano style


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## SteveyG

I'm in a similar boat and won't be getting a new grinder till the end of the month, but I had good results from beans bought in Starbucks and ground for me there. I only really noticed a decline in quality after about 5 days.

The gold pack of Lavazza isn't too bad either, but didn't manage more than about a 15 second pour.


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## Geoff

I finally got my new Gaggia Classic. Still waiting for grinder so decided to try with supermarket ground coffee and the pressurised basket. 1st problem was I couldn't get the filter head to fit. I think this was because I had too much coffee in the basket, assumed it should be full. How much space should there be at the top of the basket?


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## Blue_Cafe

If you read the instructions, it tells you.

1cup= 1 scoop.

2 cup = 2 scoops.


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