# Extraction time ~15s no matter what I do - Please help!



## metcam2 (Jul 13, 2020)

Hi all,

I've a Sage Barista Express. No matter what I do, I've ~15s pour from start to finish. I want to get an extraction of >25s and am worried the machine isn't working as intended as I can't get it to exceed 15s no matter what I try.

I've tried 3 types of beans: one cheap bag, two dated, fresh bags from Union Coffee, light/medium roasts.

This the first time I've had an espresso machine so am really hoping you can help spot something obvious I'm not doing!

Variables altered independently:



3 types of coffee - 2 were fresh, dated, quality beans


Ensured I've at least 10 mins to heat up


Weighed the beans going into the grinder


Single wall, double basket, double wall double basket


Changed the grind size across every step


Changed the outer burr setting from 6, to 5 to 3


Changed the grind amount from 16g through to 22g


Experimented with, and read up on tamping, and testing the puck afterwards for defects.


Outcomes of altering the above variables



On my present 'finest' setting, for 18g in, I yield 48g out.


The flow of the extraction begins after 7-8s


The shot extracted begins with 2s of very dark before turning to watery, dribbling runoff.


No coffee is coming around the group head.


I can under or over extract, over extracting will yield less, however runs for even less time (~9s)


Depending on the vars, I can observe the pressure gauge range from 8 o'clock to 1 o'clock.


Regardless, extraction times never exceed 15s.

Since then

After burning through two full bags of coffee, I've now spent the evening with the goal of getting an extraction that lasts anything loner than 15s. Nothing.

Finally, I even went as far as reading the entire manual. Still no dice 

I'm close to my wits end here, any advice before I send it back?

Many thanks in advance,

M.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Brand new machine? 
Union beans, when were they roasted?

Sounds like you need to adjust the top burr of the grinder and grind finer.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Agree with the previous poster. You can open up to access the burr and set it one finer. There are YouTube videos showing how to do it . Give you much more adjustment in the finer range. First thing my brother had to do when he got one.

Was easy to dial in after that.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

How long is the shot taking from when you push the button to start extraction to when you stop the extraction .

Your posts above seems to say 7 to 8 seconds before extraction then 15 seconds extraction , so is this 23 seconds from start to end.

The bag from union what was the roast date on this and how long were the shots taking and how did they taste.

Don't talk about under or over extraction as you are not measuring , just focus on does it taste ok , if not, is it sour, bitter, sweet , weak etc

22g is way to much for that basket i suspect and 16 g not enough In the manual does it say any recommended dose amount for the basket you are using , if so stick to that . 18 g would seem to sensible bit I have no experience with this basket .


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## metcam2 (Jul 13, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Brand new machine?
> Union beans, when were they roasted?
> 
> Sounds like you need to adjust the top burr of the grinder and grind finer.


 Thanks - however already did that - reduced it by 1 and then by 2 steps. Am concerned if I reduce it further the burrs will touch; If I set to finest, I can feel resistance on the outer settings which I assume is them touching.


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## metcam2 (Jul 13, 2020)

Mrboots2u said:


> How long is the shot taking from when you push the button to start extraction to when you stop the extraction .
> 
> Your posts above seems to say 7 to 8 seconds before extraction then 15 seconds extraction , so is this 23 seconds from start to end.
> 
> ...


 Fair points, thanks - I wasn't very clear as I was stating the ranges of what I observed.



Roast date for the Union coffee was 29/6/2020.


The average time to begin extraction is 7-8s


The longest time I've managed to extract from pressing the button to the machine completing the pour is 15s, can be lower.


Stating it over/under extracted was based on the taste


I am measuring the beans in and the volume out (18g in, 48g out)


Hope that helps!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Sounds really quick still if it's at its finest setting. It might be down to the shot prep. If you want to rule it out you could try WDT. Try below link

If you're still getting 15 sec shots then you need to look at the grinder or the beans.

You could also do a video of your shot prep.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

http://


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

metcam2 said:


> Outcomes of altering the above variables
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I'm really confused.

You say you're getting 48g out in 15s every time.

But then you "over extract" but yield less, in less time??? I don't get it, how do you yield less? You're aiming for 48g out, so why are you stopping the shot before you get that?

What you're describing effectively means the coffee in the basket is offering almost no resistance to water flow.

Does your machine have a volumetric function that you're using? Are you using a proper basket or a pressurised "dual wall" one?

What dose do Sage recommend? I thought people typically aim for 20g+ with these Sages?

A couple of things:



single dosing won't help, you should put a good amount in the hopper and weigh the grinds in the portafilter. Don't just weigh the beans that you've put into the grinder.


purge stale grinds from the grinder before your shot if you aren't already, especially if you've changed the grind setting.


Until you get this sorted just run the machine until you get 80-90ml in the cup.


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

A video of whats going off would help. You say you've used 16 to 22g in the portafilter and it makes no difference? I would say this must be down to basket prep so your getting a lot of channelling. If I go to the lowest grind on my sage, with 18g in it will almost certainly choke the machine.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

+1 on a video of the whole prep. Or at least pictures.


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## metcam2 (Jul 13, 2020)

I think I'm confusing things by stating ranges of what I've observed. 18g > 48g was on the last test I observed. Sure thing, I'll get a video/photo's up and capture it all!

Thanks so much for the help so far on this, really apprecaited!

M.


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## metcam2 (Jul 13, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> But then you "over extract" but yield less, in less time??? I don't get it, how do you yield less? You're aiming for 48g out, so why are you stopping the shot before you get that?


 This caught my eye...

This model has two preset 1 and 2 shot modes. I've ensured they're at the factory standard.

Pressing the 2 shot option is expected to run for 25 - 35s once dialed in. I can press and hold the pour if I choose, however was assuming something is wrong if I can't get the preset to pull for near that time.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

metcam2 said:


> This caught my eye...
> 
> This model has two preset 1 and 2 shot modes. I've ensured they're at the factory standard.
> 
> Pressing the 2 shot option is expected to run for 25 - 35s once dialed in. I can press and hold the pour if I choose, however was assuming something is wrong if I can't get the preset to pull for near that time.


 Forget using the preset for now.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

This is the burr adjustment I'm talking about


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> Forget using the preset for now.


 and if it's anything like the Bambino Plus, now and forever.

which is to say, I don't find the presets very reliable at all.


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## metcam2 (Jul 13, 2020)

facboy said:


> and if it's anything like the Bambino Plus, now and forever.
> 
> which is to say, I don't find the presets very reliable at all.


 Thanks!

I've fresh beans arriving tomorrow, have ordered some dark/medium roast.

I will dial in without using the preset buttons using the new beans, if I fail to get above 15s I'll record the process and capture the vars.

Many thanks all!


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## metcam2 (Jul 13, 2020)

Sorted!!

Just had 2 day old beans of medium roast arrive, started my grind very fine (using both internal and external grind settings). Took me 3 attempts to dial in and it ran each time like honey. Final shot was delicious, both sweet and bitter, looked sexy AF. Wish I'd taken a photo but was too excited (and high on caffeine?). 18g beans, ran the shot manually as advised for 35s, puled 40g out (need to get the knack of timing on the button as it continues once released for 3-5s).

Here's what I learned, further feedback or critique is welcome, I'm unashamedly new to this. Hope it's useful for other newbies like me, who've just bought their first machine:



Beans really do make all the difference - Once I'd run out of fresh beans, I figured learning using crappy beans would be okay. They aren't.


The grind amount dial isn't consistent - instead, crank the grind amount dial up to maximum, weigh the beans before they go into the hopper and run them through until done.


The pours using the timer buttons are no good. Use your own timer and pull manually (I skimmed in the manual on how to program these buttons, TBC)


I found using the timer on my scales were handy with timings as opposed to fumbling with my phone, watch.


I changed one variable at a time - I found using grind size as my variable, and being methodical worked for me.


To summarise, I feel I've gone for an affordable machine that makes coffee that I like. The downsides of this price range vs my expectations are that the 'features' of this machine (as per the manual, youtube clips, etc) aren't that great; they attempt to save the pain of measuring and timing but can get in the way of learning. Instead, applying your own controls and bypassing these features is simpler... Like everyone's hacks with Aeropress, it almost makes the machine charming!

Finally, thanks to everyone for jumping on this thread and helping out and getting me onto this learning curve - I wanted to get a new lockdown hobby and love problem solving so am excited to start this journey.

Many thanks,

M.


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