# Water Quality - a short anecdote



## MikeHag

I recently pushed the boat out a bit and bought a bag of Has Bean Finca Santuario Micay Yellow Bourbon for a tenner. High hopes for these, and I used the refractometer on each brew to make sure I was brewing them within the Gold Cup extraction window. I tried them in a Kalita Wave. Awful. Acrid. Harsh. I tried them with a Hario syphon. Awful. Different grinds. Awful. AeroPress... cooler temperature. Awful.

I chatted to Roland, who works at Has Bean, to see if he had suggestions. I tried them in a chemex. Awful. I then received this week's In My Mug, which coincidentally was from the same farm, but a different varietal. Guess what... awful. Perfect brew stats from the refractometer. Great beans, perfectly roasted. And yet, terrible tasting coffee... nothing like the tasting notes. Why? WHY OH WHY?? What was going on with my coffees???

Wracking my brain for which variable could be causing this problem, it occurred to me that after a long spell of great weather and great tasting coffee, it had been raining a lot lately, which had coincided with my coffee turning bad. We have a private water supply (PWS)... could the weather have such a big impact on our water, and how it brews coffee? I googled it. Weather does indeed affect PWS water quality.

I switched to bottled water, choosing Highland Spring which has a Dry Residue reading of 158mg/L. Dry residue is apparently the same as TDS. I checked some of the other mineral stats on the bottle and compared them with the SCAA water quality guidelines. Highland Spring is quite close to their ideal.

I filled the kettle from the bottle and chose the chemex... a safe bet.

DELICIOUS! A completely different coffee from how it tasted with my tap water. The two cannot and should not be spoken about in the same sentence.

It makes me really feel for professional coffee roasters, as they have so little control over what happens to their coffees once they reach the customer... and even if the customer is really careful how they treat the coffee, there are still so many ways it could all go tits up... things beyond their control, or things they don't even know are happening.

I did already know that water quality was very important, but this episode has really hammered it home. I never would have thought that a coffee could taste so MASSIVELY different just because of the water... and assumed that my tap water was probably good enough to be absolutely fine for coffee. It isn't. Is yours?


----------



## fatboyslim

What exactly is it in your tap water thats causing your brews to be bad, any idea?

Does it taste bad if you drink the tap water by itself?

Are you in a soft/hard water area, i.e. mineral content likely to change depending on state of river beds and such?

Glad you solved it though


----------



## MikeHag

I'm sending it off for analysis this week. Our source is the hill... underground well and spring, hence high mineral content. I don't know how long rainwater takes to leech into the underground system but have suspicions that the recent rain may have had an unusual ion charge/pH.

The tap water tastes fine as water... not as good as the mains tap water we had at Aberfoyle, but better than our tap water in Wimbledon. I am amazed that water which tastes so acceptable can be so unacceptable for coffee. But it just proves to me what I've been reading about the effect of minerals, pH, carbonates etc on brewing coffee.


----------



## garydyke1

This may be a similar story here...the latest IMM is poor at best via espresso. All was well until the rain!

Volvic is OK for espresso machines I think....may give it a go!


----------



## MikeHag

Intetesting... Tim Styles (St Ali aka Workhouse Coffee) said the other day that everything on their cupping table tasted bitter...


----------



## garydyke1

The tap water from our private supply tastes lovely I suspect due to a high mineral content (we filter to prevent scale).

Great tasting water = not always suitable for coffee??


----------



## MikeHag

garydyke1 said:


> Great tasting water = not always suitable for coffee??


I think that might be the lightbulb moment for me. I had thought that if the water tastes good, and you hit the right extraction when brewing, you would pretty much nail how the coffee should taste. Seems not.

I'm cross-checking my findings with what it says in the water quality handbook. Here's an extract...

"The presence of certain mineral ions (especially calcium) in the water will affect [the brewing] process ... to a degree where minute changes in mineral content will have a pronounced flavour change in the coffee that is brewed."

Scott Rao's brewed coffee book seems to take some of the key points from several SCAA handbooks and put them in a single, readable format. But there is so much more in these handbooks that is really useful, if at times tricky to read (for a chemistry-phobe like myself!!) I think Has Bean are a perfect candidate to sell these in the UK, since the SCAE don't seem to offer them. Pull some strings, Gary


----------



## garydyke1

Ive just tried the same latest IMM coffee as brewed, again using my tasty tap water. v60 17.5g producing 290g beverage in approx 3.5 mins...perfect bloom and pour..starting water temp 95.5 finishing water temp of 88.9 (close).. this is all normal. The end result wasnt - as per the espresso - salty, sour and something not right, although more palatable than the espresso. Ill re-try the brewed using highland spring. I will also try the espresso using filtered volvic (one of the advantages of having a tank within Brewtus). shame because the bloom had a strong citrus/peach scent which was promising


----------



## Outlaw333

I heard it said 130ppm is the ideal level you should be looking for, if you are below this there is an increased likelihood of over extraction while above causes underextraction, I'm guessing what he meant was above you would have to grind finer than is desirable thus increasing undissolved solids and vise versa.


----------



## garydyke1

Dont know the make-up of our private supply, it does taste better than tap water in and around the same postcode tho.

Interestingly Seven Trent have published this about the non-private tap water in the area : -

Analysis Typical Value UK/European Limit Units

Hardness Level Soft No Standard Applies

Hardness Clark 3.00 No Standard Applies Degrees Clark

Hardness French 4.00 No Standard Applies French Degrees

Hardness German 2.00 No Standard Applies German Degrees

Aluminium 8.22 200 μgAl/l

Chloride 250 mgCl/l

Chlorine 0.25 No Standard Applies mg/l

Coliform bacteria 0.00 0 no./100ml

Colour 0.90 20 mg/l Pt/Co

Conductivity 123.03 2500 μS/cm at 20°C

E.coli bacteria 0.00 0 no./100ml

Fluoride 0.84 1.5 mgF/l

Iron 15.49 200 μgFe/l

Manganese 1.89 50 μgMn/l

Nitrate 1.80 50 mgNO3/l

Odour 0.00 Acceptable to customers and no abnormal change Dilution Number

Pesticides 0.00 0.5 μg/l

pH 8.68 6.5 - 9.5 pH Value

Sodium 8.38 200 mgNa/l

Taste 0.00 Acceptable to customers and no abnormal change Dilution Number

Plumbing Metals

Copper 0.00 2.0 mgCu/l

Lead 0.65 25 μgPb/l

Nickel 0.95 20 μgNi/l

TDS 82 ppm

The TDS would be perfect for the espresso machine...in terms of reduced scale. Our private supply creates lots of scale if not filtered


----------



## MikeHag

Outlaw333 said:


> I heard it said 130ppm is the ideal level you should be looking for, if you are below this there is an increased likelihood of over extraction while above causes underextraction, I'm guessing what he meant was above you would have to grind finer than is desirable thus increasing undissolved solids and vise versa.


Not at all, Nick, although that approach is what I previously thought was sufficient.

What I'm now saying is that using only TDS to assess your water quality doesn't seem to work, and changing your grind/temperature/technique to overcome a high/low TDS certainly isn't sufficient. My coffee tasted crap even after achieving 'perfect' extraction statistics. Coffee TDS and coffee extraction yield are a good indicator of brewing correctly, but not a good indicator of achieving the best coffee flavour.

There is something else in the water affecting the flavour. Several things. Calcium for sure... which granted is contributing to TDS ... but you could have two different waters, both with the same TDS, but each with a different calcium content. This will change the flavour. Then there's bicarbonate. Sodium. Chlorine. Chloride. Nitrate. Potassium. Sulphate. All potentially affecting flavour, even if you extract the coffee perfectly. Some of these are included in the SCAA water quality guidelines shown at the above link.

When I get my water analysis back from Dave Hart I'll hopefully be able to compare it with Highland Spring/Volvic to see where the glaring differences are. It's all very unclear right now.


----------



## MikeHag

By the way, Nick, is Dave analysing yours too? I notice he offered on twitter. Gary, would you be interested? I'm sure he doesn't want a deluge of water samples but a few may be ok.


----------



## fatboyslim

So let me get this straight. You spend huge money on getting the best coffee related equipment. Spend years honing your technique only to be let down by the water you use?

Mike just out of interest, when you were making pour overs with your tap water were you filtering it? Did you compare filtered tap water to unfiltered tap water?


----------



## garydyke1

MikeHag said:


> By the way, Nick, is Dave analysing yours too? I notice he offered on twitter. *Gary, would you be interested?* I'm sure he doesn't want a deluge of water samples but a few may be ok.


Would I ever! How do I go about this?


----------



## MikeHag

fatboyslim said:


> So let me get this straight. You spend huge money on getting the best coffee related equipment. Spend years honing your technique only to be let down by the water you use?
> 
> Mike just out of interest, when you were making pour overs with your tap water were you filtering it? Did you compare filtered tap water to unfiltered tap water?


Well, exactly








after all, it's 98.5% water!

I didn't compare with filtered water, the main reason being I haven't found a domestic filter that gives a proper explanation of what it is actually doing to the water. The thing on the brita website is the best I've seen but the info is very high level.

But all I'd say is if you have a filter, it may be fine... but try comparing the coffee you brew using it with the same coffee using bottled water with stats that are close to the SCAA standards, for example ...


----------



## MikeHag

garydyke1 said:


> Would I ever! How do I go about this?


I'll speak to Dave (@sweetacidbitter).


----------



## Outlaw333

I'll bet heavy metals would be your worst enemy next to chlorine and chloramine. This being the case the way forward would be an HMA filter, these don't soften your water like an RO unit so no need to re-mineralise but do remove said unwanted compounds/elements including nh2cl and cl.


----------



## Outlaw333

Should be ideal in a soft water area anyway.


----------



## Outlaw333

I know it is me and my fishkeeping again but have a look at this http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/DD_HMA_80-C.html and see whether you think it would be significantly beneficial. Have a read through what is said about it. Im setting up a discus tank and getting one of these anyway at some point as i find the RO unit is a pain to use and to be avoided if i can help it, so if i get one first i'll let you know if it has an impact on the coffee.


----------



## Outlaw333

MikeHag said:


> By the way, Nick, is Dave analysing yours too? I notice he offered on twitter. Gary, would you be interested? I'm sure he doesn't want a deluge of water samples but a few may be ok.


Not yet but i will try and get round to it.


----------



## MikeHag

Outlaw333 said:


> I know it is me and my fishkeeping again but have a look at this http://www.devotedly-discus.co.uk/acatalog/DD_HMA_80-C.html and see whether you think it would be significantly beneficial. Have a read through what is said about it. Im setting up a discus tank and getting one of these anyway at some point as i find the RO unit is a pain to use and to be avoided if i can help it, so if i get one first i'll let you know if it has an impact on the coffee.


Looks very interesting, Nick. I like how they give a decent explanation of what is does to the water. For domestic use here it might fit as a component of a water quality system (inline with a softener, perhaps), but I am also tempted just to take the easy road and just stick with bottled water. We're getting a council water assessment next week (it was booked before I started having these coffee issues), which may result in a grant for a treatment system, so maybe I get get it configured to be good for coffee!


----------



## Outlaw333

doesn't bottled water get very expensive after a while? i guess you do have the advantage of a comprehensive(ish) breakdown of its mineral content on the side of the bottle. Still though, it just seems a little like sand and arabs to me! I really hope you get this grant!


----------



## MikeHag

Well even with an £800 grant, a proper water treatment system in a private supply is probably a few grand







Hopefully we won't need it (the reason for the assessment is to check the lead and bacteria levels). If we don't need a new treatment system then I'll drink the tap water and use bottled for coffee. Cost-wise, a 9 litres sixpack costs about £3.50 and I won't use more than that most weeks, which doesn't seem too bad considering the cost of installing an inline filtration and softening system. I don't think I drink enough coffee at home to justify that sort of kit. (The cafe will be a whole different ballgame, however. This recent episode is making me rethink the cafe's water treatment options again.)


----------



## Outlaw333

One of my best friends owns/runs a borehole company and her garage where she has her personal water treatment system looks like a government science lab! i can imagine that stuff ain't cheep!

I guess £3.50 a week isn't bad, when you think about it though, 9litres is only about two thirds of a bucket!

Would you need to soften your water? did you do the GH and KH test? what are your levels? surely in a whiskey region your water must be positively duvet like!

What are your thoughts on the Cafe?


----------



## Outlaw333

Appologies for the bombardment of questions!


----------



## MikeHag

Outlaw333 said:


> Would you need to soften your water? did you do the GH and KH test? what are your levels? surely in a whiskey region your water must be positively duvet like!
> 
> What are your thoughts on the Cafe?


I have conflicting/confusing results from readings, experiences and anecdotal evidence. I strongly believe the water is hard, because of the highest of the water sources being from a limestone peak, coupled with how soap struggles to lather up when washing. Haven't done GH/KH tests as awaiting the council test. I've been surprised to learn that many parts of Scotland have hard water, but I suppose it's to be expected considering the geology.

For the cafe I'm going to continue researching water before doing anything. I'm using a standard carbon filter at the moment and no softener... very bad idea in light of recent findings. What I want is to have treatment that lets me hit specific targets for tds, calcium, sodium, pH, alkilinity etc... but it seems difficult to find specialists who are able to deliver this.


----------



## MikeHag

Outlaw333 said:


> Appologies for the bombardment of questions!


Don't!!







(apologise, that is)


----------



## Outlaw333

The quest for perfect water is a waste of time anyway though, no matter how you go about it. You may think you have it perfect and then you get a drought, monsoon, snow melt or whatever and everything will change, right from chlorine levels in a mains system which go up to combat all the pollutants from run off, conductivity changes with varying sediment levels, PH changes as you get changes in KH(which acts as the PH buffer, maintaining a steady ph, you can experiment with this by adding sodium bicarbonate to water, checking the ph then adding an acid, the carbonate will buffer the ph back up again, add a little more acid and it will be buffered back up again until the acid level breaches the KH barrier and PH will suddenly plummet) phosphates, nitrates etc etc. I guess things like phosphates, nitrates, volatile organics etc can be filtered but you get the idea.

Bugger! Its happened again mike. I just need to stay well away from talk of water or I just bang on and on about total shuite!!


----------



## Outlaw333

MikeHag said:


> I have conflicting/confusing results from readings, experiences and anecdotal evidence. I strongly believe the water is hard, because of the highest of the water sources being from a limestone peak, coupled with how soap struggles to lather up when washing. Haven't done GH/KH tests as awaiting the council test. I've been surprised to learn that many parts of Scotland have hard water, but I suppose it's to be expected considering the geology.
> 
> For the cafe I'm going to continue researching water before doing anything. I'm using a standard carbon filter at the moment and no softener... very bad idea in light of recent findings. What I want is to have treatment that lets me hit specific targets for tds, calcium, sodium, pH, alkilinity etc... but it seems difficult to find specialists who are able to deliver this.


As i suggested there is always an RO unit but as I also said, they are a pain and you have to remineralise and all that gubbins. I think an RO unit with a high enough flow rate would be very expensive too.

If you want I could have a chat with Stef and see what she would suggest(She and her whole family happen to be said specialists)


----------



## MikeHag

I agree, it's a big challenge. That's why I think for domestic use (for coffee) bottled water seems a good bet, as it is presumably quite consistent. Certainly more consistent than a PWS will ever be. For mains water we are at the mercy of the water supply companies, and it seems some are better than others, but at least they have targets that they work towards, and usually publish annual readings, so it at least gives us some sort of baseline to work from, helping minimise the impact of environmental conditions upon the water quality/content/balance. I would certainly say it's not a waste of time to have a water goal, and to try to achieve the unachievable, because at the very least the act of trying must result in some degree of improvement in coffee flavour... provided we do the right thing!


----------



## Outlaw333

Ah, I hadn't actually read the first page of this thread atall and it turns out you have already discovered weather thing just a little!


----------



## MikeHag

Outlaw333 said:


> As i suggested there is always an RO unit but as I also said, they are a pain and you have to remineralise and all that gubbins. I think an RO unit with a high enough flow rate would be very expensive too.
> 
> If you want I could have a chat with Stef and see what she would suggest(She and her whole family happen to be said specialists)


I may come back to you on that, mate. It seems to me that taking things back to zero (RO) and then adding back is a logical way to consistently hit a target.


----------



## Outlaw333

Oh yeah, I totally agree, Its just a case of constant attention, frustration and balancing plates! Which is of course what the speciality coffee industry is built upon!


----------



## Outlaw333

That was in reply to the previous post


----------



## RolandG

garydyke1 said:


> The tap water from our private supply tastes lovely I suspect due to a high mineral content (we filter to prevent scale).
> 
> Great tasting water = not always suitable for coffee??


I suspect I'm just lucky - I've never had an issue with tap water. I've grown up with Staffordshire tap water, which is on the Hard side (around 220 ppm TDS measured today), but which is very much to my taste preference - I prefer it to bottled water for example. I don't know how much that is down to growing up with it.


----------



## Outlaw333

As for the RO thing, make sure you aren't on a water meter as they generate a huge amount of waste water!!


----------



## MikeHag

Outlaw333 said:


> As for the RO thing, make sure you aren't on a water meter as they generate a huge amount of waste water!!


That's something I wasn't aware of, and is definitely a consideration. It's a standard condition of the water supplier that the cafe's operations will not be wasteful with water.


----------



## Fran

Mike, I think Notes in London have their water shipped in, because of the whole 'London has terrible water' malarkey. You might want to ask how they operate, since it's obviously practical in a retail setting.


----------



## MikeHag

Fantastic tip off, Fran! Thanks, I'll follow up on that


----------



## garydyke1

Well my Highland spring v60 today, using all the same variables, smells the same but does taste different. Tastes better









Its cleaner, no saltyness, bright , peachy with caramel-choc-vanilla finish. Darn it.

I think ill brita-filter some for espresso, dont have any Volvic


----------



## garydyke1

MikeHag said:


> Well, exactly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> after all, it's 98.5% water!
> 
> I didn't compare with filtered water, the main reason being I haven't found a domestic filter that gives a proper explanation of what it is actually doing to the water. The thing on the brita website is the best I've seen but the info is very high level.
> 
> But all I'd say is if you have a filter, it may be fine... but try comparing the coffee you brew using it with the same coffee using bottled water with stats that are close to the SCAA standards, for example ...


Volvic looks favourable for an espresso machine

Country -France

Source -Auvergne Regional Park

Type -still

pH 7

Calcium (Ca) 11.5

Chloride (Cl−) 13.5

Bicarbonate (HCO3) 71

Magnesium (Mg) 8

Nitrate (NO3) 6.3

Potassium (K) 6.2

Silica (SiO2) 31.7

Sodium (Na) 11.6

TDS 109


----------



## MikeHag

I'm not sure, Gary. The SCAA target for calcium hardness is 68mg/L, and if calcium is a big contributor to how the coffee tastes then maybe volvic's reading is too low.

I feel an experiment coming on involving several different types of bottled water


----------



## garydyke1

Volvic for low scale purposes tho is better than Highland, taste needs to be tested


----------



## MikeHag

Yep.

I think it's fairly well known how interested John Gordon is in water. Not long ago he posted a photo of his treatment setup ... fairly awesome looking. I asked him what his water targets were (meaning pH, TDS, calcium etc) and he said that at that point in time his primary goal was to reduce the frequency of a full machine service. I reckon his focus will switch to flavour once he has cracked his primary goal (if he hasn't already).


----------



## garydyke1

MikeHag said:


> Yep.
> 
> I think it's fairly well known how interested John Gordon is in water. Not long ago he posted a photo of his treatment setup ... fairly awesome looking. I asked him what his water targets were (meaning pH, TDS, calcium etc) and he said that at that point in time his primary goal was to reduce the frequency of a full machine service. I reckon his focus will switch to flavour once he has cracked his primary goal (if he hasn't already).


The question was asked (by Mr G Davies) is the right water ppm the same as the right water/coffee taste - John suggested that the two were not that far apart


----------



## MikeHag

Hmm... well that contradicts my own findings, or at least my own premises coming out of the back of my findings... as well as what I've interpreted from the water quality handbook. But perhaps I'm misinterpreting my findings. It could well be that my water's TDS (the PWS) is actually fine, and that there is something else going on with the water that is affecting taste... coliforms, fertilisers etc. God knows what goes on in the farms further up in the hills, and how much of that ends up in my PWS water source! (Hence the council risk assessment next week!!)


----------



## MikeHag

> coliforms


... this would certainly explain why the coffee tasted like shit


----------



## Outlaw333

Coliforms themselves shouldn't be too much of an issue but their presence indicates the likelihood of other nasties such as Protozoa, harmful bacteria, parasites etc including those that will make your coffee taste foul!


----------



## MikeHag

Let's hope there aren't any when the guy takes an accurate reading


----------



## Outlaw333

I wouldn't worry too much, a UV filter (if you don't already have one) would sort that right out and they aren't mega bucks if one is necessary.


----------



## MikeHag

After a quick email with Vince of VST I went back to the HM Digital COM100 TDS meter to measure my water TDS (the VST Coffee device isnt configured to read water). Turns out that although the COM100 isn't able to accurately measure coffee TDS, it IS accurate at measuring water. I sampled three different bottled waters with label TDS ranging from 170 to 280 and it got two of them to within 1 or 2 mg, and the third within 10mg. (I guess it is even possible that the 10mg difference is actually due to the label being inaccurate.)

My home water supply is 115mg/L, so according to some theories it should extract a nice coffee (and as we know, it doesn't). But I still believe TDS alone is too simplistic and we need to know how much of that is Calcium and Magnesium, and other dissolved solids. But I think it also points a bigger finger at other flavour influencers, like sulphates, pH, undissolved solids perhaps, pesticides, bacteria etc.

Will update this thread when I know more about what's in the water.


----------



## Glenn

Have you requested a mineral content water report from your provider?


----------



## MikeHag

Glenn said:


> Have you requested a mineral content water report from your provider?


It's a PWS, Glenn.

The council are coming tomorrow to do an assessment. And I'm sending Dave Hart some samples too.


----------



## AlIam

Gary why do you have a private water supply? Seems odd in the middle of Brum esp given how good Severn Trent's Welsh water is.


----------



## garydyke1

AlIam said:


> Gary why do you have a private water supply? Seems odd in the middle of Brum esp given how good Severn Trent's Welsh water is.


Viceroy Close has always had a private water supply / spring water / well - ever since it was built in the 1920s. The quality for drinking is exceptional. We were switched to main-line Seven Trent for a few weeks whilst some building work was carried out here & the taste was noticeably more 'chemical' - this was prior to my coffee interest tho.

Moving to Quinton soon so will have to get used to Seven Trent again


----------



## Outlaw333

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/3m-reverse-osmosis-system/p671

Hi Mike, I just had a thought regarding this particular RO unit which looks pretty damn amazing! That being the case, it might have a high enough turnover rate to have it running direct to your setup and incorporate some sort of solenoid valve that shut off the water feed when equipment is not drawing water directly from it, allowing on demand use rather than running constantly, thus meaning very low levels of waste water. If you look at the credentials of this unit it sounds absolutely perfect for your exacting requirements for water quality/recipe, providing it could be utilised in such a way so as to keep waste to a minimum.

I hope you don't mind but I asked Paul the question via the question box, as though i were asking for myself, it is something i will be considering for myself anyway and if viable will be thrown in my business plan. I hope you don't think i'm interfering?


----------



## MikeHag

Cool







I'll have a looky. Thanks, Nick!


----------



## MikeHag

Yep, seen that one and it's on the shortlist







cheers buddy


----------



## MikeHag

Here's abit more info and a video

http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/3M_Purification/FiltrationSolutions/Product/FeaturedProducts/?PC_7_RJH9U5230OECC0I1DPVOSS0OD4000000_assetId=1319212614668


----------

