# Blonding - what to consider



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Read on here several times that blonding on its own is not necessarily something to worry about.

Read elsewhere various sources that you should cut your shot as soon as it starts.

I know I should experiment with taste tests and I will - but what are you views on blonding, do you do anything when you see it, perhaps totally ignore it?

Some sources say it's over extracted coffee and should be avoided no matter what.

Interested in the more informed and experienced views on here.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

My experience is very limited but I think I've read all the same info that you've wrote down. Surely the more blonding you allow the weaker the espresso would taste? That's what I have took from the info I have read. Currently I use the 'when it looks like it's up to the bottom of the cup handle stop the shot' method and it's good enough for my needs haha. If that includes a bit of blonding then so be it


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yeah HB has an interesting piece 'diagnosing extraction problems' and in there it suggests cutting the shot at blonding and adjusting grind to ensure correct volume in given time before it starts.

Sounds logical - if perhaps we should be ignoring that advice in certain circumstances would like to know why.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Follow whatever advice you like, if it makes your shots tasty, job done.

Blonding will vary depending on length of shot, roast level. You can't tell the strength of the liquid by its colour as the shot progresses. After a point it blonds quickly, but the strength of what you are extracting drops slower. You could grind coarse and pull a really long shot that is still under-extracted and most of it will be blonde.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

That sounds awfully technical! I did try this about a month or so ago and made notes and things like that but then my boys started to decide sleep was no longer a requirement, I got too tired, wasn't bothered and just needed the caffeine hit. I'm sure in a couple of years I'll try taking it a bit more serious because I am genuinely interested in being able to taste the subtle differences and flavours from adjusting grinds, shot times and such.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The differences between a face-puckering sour shot & a sweet complex shot aren't subtle.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I personally don't even look









tasty is tasty.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ignore blonding/ for s start people can't even agree or demonstrate what colour it is . But by all means try it , if you can get it to deliver consistently tasty across different coffees , and makes your dialling in easier then you are a better man than I ever was at espresso ( or most cafes or most coffee pros )


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

MWJB said:


> The differences between a face-puckering sour shot & a sweet complex shot aren't subtle.


Haha yes I can taste those differences. I just mean the folks who can pick out the likes of dark chocolate made by wonka himself and black cherries from the deepest darkest parts of the Black Forest. I immediately think 'no you can't mate, bloody show off'


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

joey24dirt said:


> Haha yes I can taste those differences. I just mean the folks who can pick out the likes of dark chocolate made by wonka himself and black cherries from the deepest darkest parts of the Black Forest. I immediately think 'no you can't mate, bloody show off'


What do you taste then when you drink coffee


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> What do you taste then when you drink coffee


I taste coffee


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

joey24dirt said:


> I taste coffee


Oh well .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

joey24dirt said:


> I taste coffee


What does coffee taste of?

If it's coffee essence, Nescafe, Walnut whips & a sixth of a packet of Revels can I suggest a cheaper, less hassle route to enjoying the taste of "coffee"?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Oh well .


No to be fair I am able to taste the differences between different beans that I get but it just tastes like different coffee. I've watched vids where people are describing all these different flavours that they can taste and like I say all I taste is coffee.

I feel like I've took the conversation away from the main topic though so apologies for that.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What does coffee taste of?
> 
> If it's coffee essence, Nescafe, Walnut whips & a sixth of a packet of Revels can I suggest a cheaper, less hassle route to enjoying the taste of "coffee"?


Hopefully it tastes of the Honduras beans I get from my local roaster haha.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

since I started to weight-in and out, this doesn't bother me anymore


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Stanic said:


> since I started to weight-in and out, this doesn't bother me anymore


Me too.

Some reason or logic would be good learning though - if we all had the experience to go by taste alone we wouldn't need anything systematic e.g. Weighing etc


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Same here with the weighing. You get to a point where you think yeah that looks about right and it still tastes way better than the major chain coffee shops. Have you had your first cup of the day yet? What is your morning method?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Not yet mate, in the car I reckon ;-)

Eldest son's birthday - carnage!


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## Greenblood (Jun 8, 2017)

Try this- get four cups, start an extraction, after ten seconds move to cup two, then after another ten, move to cup three and finally after another ten seconds, move to cup four. So fourty seconds in all. Note which cup the blonding started in. Taste the difference between the four cups, that will answer the question as when to stop extracting

steve


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Greenblood said:


> Try this- get four cups, start an extraction, after ten seconds move to cup two, then after another ten, move to cup three and finally after another ten seconds, move to cup four. So fourty seconds in all. Note which cup the blonding started in. Taste the difference between the four cups, that will answer the question as when to stop extracting
> 
> steve


Beg to differ . You are not drinking parts of a drink , but a whole one . Drink the first cup - that won't taste great either , so we throw that away as well ?

Again different coffee and roasts will blond differently at different times , and there is no consensus or demonstration about what colour blonde is .

If this works for you as a process great . As a tool to talk and help someone dial in remotely ( on the internet ) or pass on a recipe or help achieve balance I find it less precise and helpful than weighing .

Weighing is there to measure and help adjust - as in some way is blonding , use which one you want . One IMHO is more accurate and less subjective way of producing a great drink . Both require taste and the ability to make adjustments .

Using blonding can appeal proponents say - its done by eye and feel, more analogue and skill . But all that counts is being able to use a method that gets to to tasty quickly and repeatable . So try and report back .


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Greenblood said:


> Try this- get four cups, start an extraction, after ten seconds move to cup two, then after another ten, move to cup three and finally after another ten seconds, move to cup four. So fourty seconds in all. Note which cup the blonding started in. Taste the difference between the four cups, that will answer the question as when to stop extracting
> 
> steve


Ah yes I've seen this done on YouTube. The guy had a fancy cup holding device to slide across. I'll have to give it a try when I get 5 minutes and more cups


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

I have wondered about this, also extraction speed.

I have noticed that after what I perceive as blonding the rate of extraction increases.

Up until this point I have pretty much ignored this and treat espresso making as a science experiment and choose to work with:

A) Variable I can control.

B) Measurable variables i.e weight, instead of perceived change.

Were I to go by blonding my wholw drink would change (significantly). I would either cut off when blonding begins and end up with something akin to a ristretto or grind finer and it take >40s to get within ratio I enjoy (sweet spot somewhere between 1.5 - 2.5 for me, changes bean to bean).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

igm45 said:


> I have noticed that after what I perceive as blonding the rate of extraction increases.


The rate of extraction (the rae at which coffee is dissolved from the puck) decreases as the shot progresses. The early part of the shot extracts a lot & quickly, as the shot progresses each subsequent gram extracts a little less, proportionally. But in a real world shot you are never going to have pure water coming out, what looks like water coming out of the PF is still several times stronger than the average drip brew.

The flow rate might increase, or appear to do so.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

MWJB said:


> The rate of extraction (the rae at which coffee is dissolved from the puck) decreases as the shot progresses. The early part of the shot extracts a lot & quickly, as the shot progresses each subsequent gram extracts a little less, proportionally. But in a real world shot you are never going to have pure water coming out, what looks like water coming out of the PF is still several times stronger than the average drip brew.
> 
> The flow rate might increase, or appear to do so.


Clearly I had a blonde moment.

Of course the increased flow rate=decreased rate of extraction as that is what 'slows' the water down.


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## Greenblood (Jun 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Beg to differ . You are not drinking parts of a drink , but a whole one . Drink the first cup - that won't taste great either , so we throw that away as well ?
> 
> Again different coffee and roasts will blond differently at different times , and there is no consensus or demonstration about what colour blonde is .
> 
> ...


As a newbie and still learning, I found doing this helpful in determining what parts of an extraction bring to a shot, it's certainly not definitive, but certainly helped me figure out what I like and don't like and gave me a clue where I needed to pull the cup away. It's all part of the learning curve.

steve


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

For those asking why to weigh and want a different view , here is one of the trainers from La Marazooco and Charles Babinski ( former USA barista champ - former Intelligentsia guy , pretty respected ) .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)




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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Thanks for those videos, bit of a tangent here but it was touched upon in the crema video.

Temperature:

At home if I don't finish my espresso in 5 minutes (maximum) it will be cold.

Yet when I go out (including some 'third wave'), it stays hot a lot longer. Is that:

a) because their cups are warmed to a higher temp

b) they brew at higher temp?

If its a then I guess I don't have an issue, however if it is b...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

igm45 said:


> Thanks for those videos, bit of a tangent here but it was touched upon in the crema video.
> 
> Temperature:
> 
> ...


It would be good if you can determine how cold "cold" is?

E.g. - Let's say espresso is normally around 65C when it lands in the cup, even if brewed at ~90C. I wouldn't expect this to be room temp in just 5 min?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

MWJB said:


> It would be good if you can determine how cold "cold" is?
> 
> E.g. - Let's say espresso is normally around 65C when it lands in the cup, even if brewed at ~90C. I wouldn't expect this to be room temp in just 5 min?


By cold I meant room temperature. In fact I have a fast reading thermometer, I will use that later to determine in the cup temperature. Whats the 'normal' range?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

igm45 said:


> By cold I meant room temperature. In fact I have a fast reading thermometer, I will use that later to determine in the cup temperature. Whats the 'normal' range?


Normal for me is to pull into a cold cupping bowl, leave it a few mins & swirl, gulp down at around blood temp I guess (40-50C?).


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I generally chill my spro and filter cups if I want to drink the coffee quicker after making it and don't have the time for it to get to the right temp naturally.

other thing worth calling out as I don't think anyone has said it, different compounds have different solubilities, that means as the shot is pulled you're extracting different flavours over time. the trick is balancing all these different flavours together, that's why if you split a "perfect" spro into 3, start of the shot, middle, and end, each 3rd won't taste good/right on it's own.

give it a try and compare them, then mix them together and try again.

wieght is a much better way to measure consistency than colour change perception. You then corrolate the taste to wieght.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Just over 74°C in the cup. From limited research this seems about right.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

far too hot for me.

make a cup of filter or americano and take a sip ever 5 mins measuring the temp noting how the taste changes.

when it tastes best note the temp.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Phobic said:


> far too hot for me.
> 
> make a cup of filter or americano and take a sip ever 5 mins measuring the temp noting how the taste changes.
> 
> when it tastes best note the temp.


I don't drink it at 74, that is the temp in the cup when it has just been poured. Generally I wont drink it for 1-2 min so the temp at consumption would be considerable lower.


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## nomilknosugar (May 9, 2017)

MWJB said:


> ... around blood temp I guess (40-50C?).


You need to make an urgent appointment with your doctor!


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

nomilknosugar said:


> You need to make an urgent appointment with your doctor!


Blood temp 104+ I'd think an ambulance would be in order!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

nomilknosugar said:


> You need to make an urgent appointment with your doctor!


He uhmmed & ahhhed & told me to make another appt in 2 weeks


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## nomilknosugar (May 9, 2017)

The exact words started with "you need to chill&#8230;" ;-)


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Answering the OPs original question. I try not to look, I've had some really tasty "ugly shots".

When I first started out I did try the whole blonding theory for about 2 weeks, then got much better results weighing in and out.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Answering the OPs original question. I try not to look, I've had some really tasty "ugly shots".
> 
> When I first started out I did try the whole blonding theory for about 2 weeks, then got much better results weighing in and out.


Me too - though I'm still not sure why.

Are we saying here that (if) blonding is identifiable then at that part of shot lifecycle it is probably over-extracted but it doesn't matter because it balances what's already in the cup?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

kennyboy993 said:


> Me too - though I'm still not sure why.
> 
> Are we saying here that (if) blonding is identifiable then at that part of shot lifecycle it is probably over-extracted but it doesn't matter because it balances what's already in the cup?


Weighing is quantifiable and more repeatable across of a range of coffees and roast sales ( Will your blonding point be the same in a naked pf as it is in a spouted one ) IMHO using blonding as a stopping point is not. Darker roasted coffee may appear to blonde slower than a lighter one . You are tasting the shot as a whole , evaluating it as a whole , which is why stirring is recommended so you don't get a whiff of nasty crema taste to start. The focus on what the last part tastes on it own , for me is " noise that can end up confusing people .

Again if you want some clarity over extraction and weighing go back to the Barista Hustles re building a recipe that I have linked in other threads .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> Me too - though I'm still not sure why.
> 
> Are we saying here that (if) blonding is identifiable then at that part of shot lifecycle it is probably over-extracted but it doesn't matter because it balances what's already in the cup?


We're saying that the relationship between colour of the flow and the extracted solubles are not closely enough related to establish where over-extraction occurs. If your shot is blond & still sour, pulling it shorter (before blonding) isn't going to help.

Over-extracted shots aren't balanced, they are sickly, smokey & very drying. Well extracted shots are balanced.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> We're saying that the relationship between colour of the flow and the extracted solubles are not closely enough related to establish where over-extraction occurs. If your shot is blond & still sour, pulling it shorter (before blonding) isn't going to help.
> 
> Over-extracted shots aren't balanced, they are sickly, smokey & very drying. Well extracted shots are balanced.


More eloquently put that any of my attempts .


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