# Coffee now really strong



## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Hi I would appreciate some input on the following.

I normally used a bean to cup machine and could get a good strength level which wasn't too bitter (bog standard espresso beans from supermarkets).

I got a Gaggia classic and while I waited on my grinder I tried it out using shop bought pre ground coffee and used the pressurised basket ( I know), but the coffee was quite nice.

Got my new grinder and started playing with grind/weight/tamp etc to get the 25-30 second extraction.

I now have a 28 second extraction with 17g grinds and get 2fl/oz cup level (almost perfect levels I assume), the only trouble is that the coffee is way too strong for my tastes now even though I am using the same beans that I did in my bean to cup machine.

To get a more palatable cup I would need to either reduce the amount of coffee I used or have a courser grind which would change the extraction/volume ratio that is meant to be acceptable.

Is this just because my grinder/bean combo is now extracting much more coffee flavour from the beans than my old machine did and I need to find a milder bean or am I on the completely wrong track?

Thanks in advance.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> I normally used a bean to cup machine and could get a good strength level which wasn't too bitter (bog standard espresso beans from supermarkets).
> 
> Is this just because my grinder/bean combo is now extracting much more coffee flavour from the beans than my old machine did and I need to find a milder bean or am I on the completely wrong track?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Bitterness and strength are not directly related, some people do equate bitterness with strength, but no matter how strong/weak your shot, it should be pleasant, balanced and not especially bitter (for coffee). The trick is to tie up your grind size with the length of shot that delivers a good taste. Many find this easier by weighing the dose (to 0.1g) and the shot as it comes out, settling on a weight ratio (e.g. 17g dose & 34g shot) because the crema makes volume tricky to repeat...and your cup/glass is unlikely to be calibrated to any useful degree.

Stick to the same ratio & keep your prep as consistent as you can, just change the grind setting...see how it affects the flavour. There is no "perfect level", there is what you like/are used to. The shorter the shot (shot weight gets closer to dose weight) the more intense & gloopy it gets, the longer the shot (as it gets heavier in relation to dose weight) the less mouthfeel, less intense and clearer flavours might become. As you can adjust your grind setting there should be a fair range over which a tasty shot is possible, you then dial in to your preferred intensity & mouthfeel.

Maybe start around 1:2, don't worry too rigidly about time, focus on the weight (20-40seconds) and taste. Tell us exactly what you are doing & your results & maybe we can help steer you right?


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Are you still using the pressurised basket.

What beans are you using and are they freshly roasted.

Ian


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Just out of interest what grinder are you using?


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

I suspect you're mistaking "strength" for other taste characteristics. Try to be more specific on what parts of the taste don't appeal to you - is it too bitter? Too tangy? Too earthy? Too acidic? Once you narrow down these things you'll probably find it's something to do with pressure/temperature/tamp/dose/grind and by starting to tweak those variables you'll get dramatically different tastes in your cup which begin to appeal to you.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

God...........feel so inadequate.

Thanks for the replies.

No I am using a normal double shot basket for the fresh ground coffee.

It is a new Sage smart grinder pro.

As for taste etc, it now seems very very strong on the palatte, I now get that old stale coffee taste in my mouth which I don't like. The beans are nothing special just ones from the cash and carry( I know freshly roasted beans are much better) as I have used these beans for ages in my old bean to cup this is why I am noticing the vast difference in taste. Don't laugh but actually couldn't finish any coffee I had made as it was too strong and made my stomach feel funny. is that possible?

I am doing the machine on for 15-20 mins then drawing water off before pulling the shot to ensure that the water isn't to hot, measuring the coffee weight in the basket and shot times etc. I don't want to get to obsessed with this I am just looking to make nice tasting(for me) repeatable coffee shots.

I don't drink espressos only long coffees with some milk and I think I may be concentrating too much on the shot time/volume ratio. I am going to try a courser grind and see what happens. I also have some LAVASSA beans which are my favourite and will try those.

Who knew this coffee lark was so bloddy hard:drink:


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

First start with your new grinder would be to get some decent fresh toasted beans form one of the online roasters in the beans section....

I think it sounds like you prefer a more traditional coffee tasting blend

Member who prefer that type of blend anecdotally enjoy Try Rave's Italian Job, Coffee Compass Brighton's Lane


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

mremanxx said:


> God...........feel so inadequate.
> 
> Thanks for the replies.
> 
> ...


Yeah I know what you mean with this, but I think it's very likely it's because you're using stale beans with some mistakes in temperature / pressure / dosing / tamping etc. I made a double shot with some Taylors supermarket beans which pulled nicely in 25seconds and had a reasonable crema but absolutely turned my stomach when I tried to drink it - it tasted horrific, extremely bitter and dark.

Get a bag of nice fresh roasted (darker rather than lighter roasted as it's a bit more forgiving), and try a few shots with different grinds / tamps / dosage and try a bit of temperature surfing. It took me a dozen or so attempts before I had anything remotely drinkable from my Gaggia.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Yep as above get some fresh beans , playing with the variables of dose , tamp , grind are pointless until you have a decent fresh ingredient ...


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

If you are getting "that old stale coffee taste" in your mouth could that be the clue. Maybe you are using old stale beans and I would suggest the Lavazza ones will be just as stale. It doesn't matter how you grind stale beans they will only put out stale grinds.

I think a trial with some fresh beans might be a suggestion here.

Ian

Sorry I must have been typing as others posted


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> Don't laugh but actually couldn't finish any coffee I had made as it was too strong and made my stomach feel funny. is that possible?
> 
> I don't want to get to obsessed with this I am just looking to make nice tasting(for me) repeatable coffee shots.
> 
> I don't drink espressos only long coffees with some milk and I think I may be concentrating too much on the shot time/volume ratio.


It doesn't seem likely that strength is the issue, in the wider context of espresso, if you pull 2 fl. oz (argument's sake 60ml) your shot is likely to be on the weaker side of what many folk aim for...even if you pull everything out of the bean, it may well taste horrid because your pulling too much or too little from the bean.

You don't need to be obsessed, but you do need to be aware of the basics & be consistent, fastest route to this is the use of scales. Better beans make better shots, but the principles are the same.

Even if you drink milk drinks, your milk should compliment the shot, not cover up a bad tasting shot.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Bugger,

Why do these beans not taste bad when I used my bean to cup machine is the biggest mystery to me though?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Because it extracted them differently & did it consistently.

Do you still have it to compare?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Yes but not sure what to look for the puck from my bean to cup machine feels like a much courser grind than I am doing just now and I had it set to pull a "very strong 60ml) shot which by the time I added water and some milk was perfect.

I am going to try using the single and double pressurised baskets to see what happens.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Right just pulled a shot using the PB, same bean load and volume, not perfect but a much smoother taste........why?


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

mremanxx said:


> Right just pulled a shot using the PB, same bean load and volume, not perfect but a much smoother taste........why?


I can only presume because the over-pressure of the machine is being effectively regulated by the pressurised pin in the basket meaning the effective flow and pressure through the puck is less than in a non pressurised basket. The PB may also be creating more artificial crema which smoothens out the taste somewhat?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Now funny you should mention over pressure, to get the 60ml @ 30 seconds say my grind is fine and I have a small pool of water onto of the puck, when I tap the puck out it is solid and dry. Is this a sign of too fine a grind?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why do you want 60ml specifically? It's fine if you do, but is that what your bean to cup produced from 17g dose?

Water on the puck is usually a sign of headspace, how much water is left behind after the overpressure valve has dumped residual water above the puck, it is not in itself a sign of a problem.

Certainly coarsen up the grind if you are shooting for 60ml and getting bitter coffee. It would still be better to weigh the shot than try and second guess by volume.

Pressurised basket presents pressure to the group to make up for less than ideal grind, it reduces control of extraction, if you want to work at it, try and use the unpressurised basket & let the coffee present the resistance for improved extraction (but you will have to fine tune the grind). If you're finding it easier to get an enjoyable result with the pressurised basket then maybe stick with it for now, try some other espressos from other folk & cafes and see if you feel you are missing out on anything...if you find that you are not missing out, you don't have a problem (though I suspect eventually you will taste a shot that makes you rethink your expectations).

When you pull a shot or make a pourover, you are not merely diluting the coffee as if you were making orange squash, you are also trying to control how much of the bean you dissolve, this drives the flavour balance through sour/acidic, sweet & balanced to bitter & drying. Your grind size is critical in getting the flavour balance to tie up with shot size (weight).


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Your a star MWJB, thanks. I had it in my head that an espresso shot (single) is 30ml so therefore a double basket should produce 60ml.

I set the fluid level on my bean to cup to achieve this on that principle. No I realise from reading items on the forum that realistically I should be aiming for a 1:2 ratio, or 1:3 max.

As I don't drink espresso and always add water to my cup that holds about 180ml I take it that I should only add the amount of hot water that makes either of those ratios taste best to me?

Am I getting closer?

Why do people place two cups under the PF on youtube videos when pulling a shot that is presumably made from 18g coffee grinds, surely this is over extraction?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It depends what they're getting out. Some people split the shots so they can make two drinks from them. Using a 1.6 or 2 ratio I always just poured into one cup.

Don't go to 1:3.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

See this is what is fuelling my confusion, I was watching a lot of equipment demos from SCG, and the shots they pulled are not 18ml in each glass by a long way so I thought that my double shot/double volume ratio was correct.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Crema is foam which makes the shot appear much bigger. If you weighed it it would probably be around 18g


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Why do people place two cups under the PF on youtube videos when pulling a shot that is presumably made from 18g coffee grinds, surely this is over extraction?


Each cup or shot glass then equals a single shot. A normal cappuccino traditionally has 2 singles in it i.e. a double.

It's not over extraction because the combined weight of both shots would still only be anywhere between 28g-35g in total.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> Why do people place two cups under the PF on youtube videos when pulling a shot that is presumably made from 18g coffee grinds, surely this is over extraction?


Overextraction is not necessarily linked to how big the beverage you make ends up, some folk can pull 300g from 18g dose and still not overextract!

Overextraction relates to how much of your dose (18g) gets dissolved & makes it into the cup, you might overextract at 1:3 & longer, less likely at 1:2 & less, very unlikely at 1:1 (much more likely to underextract). Typically, overextraction occurs when much more than 20% of your 18g dose is washed into the cup (this is your "extraction yield"), this isn't the easiest thing to measure without a dedicated tool (you can't do it with regular kitchen tools like scales), but if you experiment, keep your prep & ratio consistent, you will probably find that drinkable shots will measure from around 15% to 20% depending on your beans, grinder & personal preference. You can get into this range just by using taste & grind adjustments, fine tuning the target gets a bit trickier...

Beverage yield - weight of your shot

Brew ratio - weight of your shot divided by coffee dose weight (1:2), or dose divided by beverage weight (50% - same shot expressed 2 ways).

Extraction yield - amount of dry dose that is dissolved into the cup = nice taste balance.

Underextraction - Too little dry dose is dissolved leading to underdeveloped flavour, often acidic & sour.

Overextraction - Too much dry dose dissolved, one of the causes (but not the only one) of bitterness.

Strength - the amount of the dry dose that is dissolved in the cup, expressed as a proportion of the beverage weight. But don't worry about this too much just yet, Brew Ratio implies this strength, when your coffee tastes good at a given brew ratio it will unavoidably fall within a given strength range.

Double - "Double brewed" is any espresso made from a dose over about 11g, irrespective of how many cups it lands in.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

urbanbumpkin said:


> A normal cappuccino traditionally has 2 singles in it i.e. a double.


http://www.jimseven.com/2010/12/26/the-cappuccino/


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Okay so golden rule is 1:2 ratio, I will experiment.

Thanks guys


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## roaringboy (Jun 14, 2014)

Probably more "rule of thumb" than "golden rule".

Basically weigh in, weigh out and experiment until it tastes nice to you. Nearly all beans behave differently (plus taste is a preference), so there's really no hard-and-fast rule regarding ratios.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

So if I want to concentrate on taste alone should I worry too much about the time of the shot (i,e [email protected] seconds say) If I am getting a nice taste in say 15 seconds but still getting a 30ml dose would this not ean under extraction? I am going to get some fresh roasted beans from artisanroast in Edinburgh (anyone used them before) to see if the makes a difference also.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> So if I want to concentrate on taste alone should I worry too much about the time of the shot (i,e [email protected] seconds say) If I am getting a nice taste in say 15 seconds but still getting a 30ml dose would this not ean under extraction? I am going to get some fresh roasted beans from artisanroast in Edinburgh (anyone used them before) to see if the makes a difference also.


Nominally id be aiming for around 25-35 but if it is 36 or 22 seconds and tastes balanced and good

I be surprised if you can pull a tasty shot in 15 seconds on a conventional espresso grinder

Id measure weigh in and weigh out ( not volume of 30 ml )

but taste is king.....and we all taste differently , hence not trying to get hung up on us all doing a 27 second shot


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

artisan roast are good. If you can get a 15 sec pour to taste good you're a magician


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## bean_there (Jan 9, 2015)

mremanxx said:


> I am going to get some fresh roasted beans from artisanroast in Edinburgh (anyone used them before)


I used Artisan Roast a lot when I lived in Edinburgh and can recommend them. Very knowledgeable staff who are happy to discuss how you're making your coffee and recommend some suitable beans.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Thanks to all who have replied, will continue to better my measly results so far but will concentrate on taste based on a 30g shot using my standard coffee mug.

One thing I haven't asked as I presume that bean/grind temp etc have a major impact on volume/time of shot pull but what is a good tamping pressure to start a base line on? I have been trying 5kg. The reason I ask is I want to try and change only one element at a time.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

Whatever tamp pressure will be ok, keep it consistent and just tailor the grind to suit it.

ian


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't be too pedantic over time, focus on the 30g from the same dose each time & taste.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Not sure what you mean Ian, sorry to be dim. I thought that tamp pressure effected brew time and can make the drink more bitter or sour.

What I was going to try is get a shot time of about 25s with a tamp pressure of 5kg and vary the grind, the only issues I have had with this so far is that my drink is too strong, which is why I have had some shots that taste okay to me in around 15s but I am sure that this is too short, I have some crema on the shot in this time.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Tamp pressure will affect it, but its not a variable that you want to be using to change the outcome of your shot.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Okay froggy, thanks.

To be honest MWJB that is the route I am planning to go down, I feel that if I can get that volume of liquid that tastes nice when I add my hot water and milk and I can repeat it constantly the rest of the elements can bugger off just now until I get more confident, at the moment haven't had a decent cup since I stop using the bean to cup, have been tempted to get it out again but must admit to enjoying the mods side and trying to perfect the shot etc. Feels like a mini project.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> Not sure what you mean Ian, sorry to be dim. I thought that tamp pressure effected brew time and can make the drink more bitter or sour.
> 
> What I was going to try is get a shot time of about 25s with a tamp pressure of 5kg and vary the grind, the only issues I have had with this so far is that my drink is too strong, which is why I have had some shots that taste okay to me in around 15s but I am sure that this is too short, I have some crema on the shot in this time.


Try a longer ratio, maybe 2.4 or 2.5:1. If 17:30 only tastes about right to you in a 15s shot, it will be under extracted & weak for the 17:30 ratio, ergo, you want a longer ratio designed to produce a weaker drink. Don't aim for 25s (it's not a constant), aim for the weight you are targeting, between 20s & erm, more?...Judge the result by taste.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mremanxx said:


> ...at the moment haven't had a decent cup since I stop using the bean to cup, have been tempted to get it out again...


OK, get it out again...the idea in upgrading was to get better coffee, if you don't feel that is happening, do a sanity check against the B2C, can you describe the differing results & preferences? Can you work out how much coffee the B2C uses in a dose & how much its shots weigh? (Maybe retrieve an old B2C puck, weigh it & divide the weight by 2).

Most folk sell stuff off when they upgrade & can't always do an A/B test, you can in this case & you should.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> have been tempted to get it out again but must admit to enjoying the mods side and trying to perfect the shot etc. Feels like a mini project.


Dont do that, each and everyone who has purchased a manual machine has gone through the same problems, it will click, might take a few weeks but when it does you'll be loving some great coffee...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Dont do that, each and everyone who has purchased a manual machine has gone through the same problems, it will click, might take a few weeks but when it does you'll be loving some great coffee...


*Do* do it!  Why wait weeks & months for it to "click", do a straight comparison now & tell us what you find, then try & replicate what you like about the bean to cup shots, rather than playing Russian roulette with brew ratios.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Sounds like Mark loves a B2C also


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Sounds like Mark loves a B2C also


I like nice coffee, more than who/what makes it.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I might get the b2c out tomorrow and try it will the Lavassa beans that I have, this will give me a direct comparison on taste and I will weigh the puck as they come out nice and dry.

At the moment I am using 8.9g of grind and pulling 28-30g shot in 21s, small layer of crema and the most palatable I have been able to produce time and time again using PPF as I am still waiting on my single basket to come to compare taste.

Should I measure water temp during flushing or in the cup? And what is a decent temp remembering that I have only been able to do the OPV mod as I don't have a PID fitted.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Could be your new setup is extracting the beans better which is showing up the fact they're not very good...


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

That would appear to be the likely case, I just don't accept that you can't get a nice cup of coffee from shop bought beans, if they were so bad they would not sell in the millions............

I will probably make this my mission, to produce a nice cup from mass produced beans, gonna start a challenge thread I think.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Just buy some nice beans


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Just buy some nice beans


You not sleep either?? Probably too much coffee

Where is the challenge in nice beans??? I love a challenge


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> You not sleep either?? Probably too much coffee
> 
> Where is the challenge in nice beans??? I love a challenge


Try by all means , if its for intellectual stimulation...but its a waste if time tho the on thr tasty cup front...

Lots if people buying em doesn't make em any fresher.....

Enjoy


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> You not sleep either?? Probably too much coffee
> 
> Where is the challenge in nice beans??? I love a challenge


Fell asleep on the couch watching a film last night, woke up at 6am on the verge of hypothermia. Just got up, had breakfast and went to the gym.

Where's the enjoyment in bad beans? I don't like bad beans...


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Try by all means , if its for intellectual stimulation...but its a waste if time tho the on thr tasty cup front...
> 
> Lots if people buying em doesn't make em any fresher.....
> 
> Enjoy


I can just sense that once I post the challenge you are going to jump at it Boots


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> I can just sense that once I post the challenge you are going to jump at it Boots


No I'm not, I'm really not ......go find another fish for your hook it ain't me ....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What is it with people and shite beans at the moment


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> What is it with people and shite beans at the moment


I prefer " not fresh " to shite









Presumably the perception of value for money.....


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> What is it with people and shite beans at the moment


Bit harsh Bud.....









I'm a Jock we're tight gits, have you seen the price of fresh beans????


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Bit harsh Bud.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes. Have you seen the price the famer gets......


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yes. Have you seen the price the famer gets......


If you want to enjoy speciality coffee then there is a fair price for it.

If you want to enjoy commodity coffee that costs less. Your choice entirely


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yes. Have you seen the price the famer gets......


No but I presume like everything farmers produce they get screwed by the big guys??

Or are coffee producers more fortunate?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Bit harsh Bud.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What do you pay for your cash and carry beans?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> No but I presume like everything farmers produce they get screwed by the big guys??
> 
> Or are coffee producers more fortunate?


Alot of roasters will do direct trade with farmers and pay them a fair price ..some people then complain that these beans cost too much compared to supermarket ones.....


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> What do you pay for your cash and carry beans?


Kilo Lavassa from Costco £8


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Kilo Lavassa from Costco £8


I think your just enjoying the cut and thrust of debate...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Kilo Lavassa from Costco £8


http://ravecoffee.co.uk/collections/coffee-bean-blends/products/the-italian-job-blend

£1.50 a kilo more. Infinitely better coffee


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Definitely worlds apart for an extra £1.50.

£20 a kilo something even better but IJ is a great bean to start with and very forgiving


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## roaringboy (Jun 14, 2014)

mremanxx said:


> I might get the b2c out tomorrow and try it will the Lavassa beans that I have, this will give me a direct comparison on taste and I will weigh the puck as they come out nice and dry.
> 
> At the moment I am using 8.9g of grind and pulling 28-30g shot in 21s, small layer of crema and the most palatable I have been able to produce


I wouldn't worry about weighing the puck, not sure it will tell you much.

Also, I assume that's a typo and you mean 18.9g and not 8.9g? If not that's a very small dose


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> http://ravecoffee.co.uk/collections/coffee-bean-blends/products/the-italian-job-blend
> 
> £1.50 a kilo more. Infinitely better coffee


Cheers I will order a bag and try them.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

roaringboy said:


> I wouldn't worry about weighing the puck, not sure it will tell you much.
> 
> Also, I assume that's a typo and you mean 18.9g and not 8.9g? If not that's a very small dose


No you read correctly, I am using the single basket so really getting a 1:3 ratio which seems to suit my tastebuds


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> I think your just enjoying the cut and thrust of debate...


You betya, gotta love a debate, especially if you end up learning something.

Can't concentrate because of the hornet noise though


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Use the double basket. 16 in, 30 out in around 30 secs.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Now a little weird just loaded 14g in and 30 out in a double basket this time(PPF) but it came out in 15 seconds, 6 seconds faster, I presume that this is because of the larger surface area inside the basket.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What are you tamping with? Bigger doses should run slower


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I did it! I begrudgingly cringed my way through this entire thread!

If you really think you're going to get 'quality' out of coffee for 8 quid a kg, you're probably the type that thinks a Wetherspoons microwaved sausage n mash for £2.99 is the absolute pinnacle of haute cuisine. In layman's terms: wrong.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

roaringboy said:


> I wouldn't worry about weighing the puck, not sure it will tell you much.


It might tell you what the puck weighs.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Scotford said:


> I did it! I begrudgingly cringed my way through this entire thread!
> 
> If you really think you're going to get 'quality' out of coffee for 8 quid a kg, you're probably the type that thinks a Wetherspoons microwaved sausage n mash for £2.99 is the absolute pinnacle of haute cuisine. In layman's terms: wrong.


I actually think that is a really ignorant comment to make to be honest, you have no idea of my culinary tastes or eating habits. I am an extremely good cook who can easily distinguish good food from bad and have never eaten in Wetherspoons. As I previously stated, I accept that fresh coffee will make a much nicer cup than mass market stuff, that is not the topic of this thread, it was to find out why my coffee that I like the taste of(taste is one of the most subjective of the senses by the way. ) is now much stronger than it was in my B2C, my understanding of this Forum was for people to share thoughts,ideas and learn things, not to be ridiculed by a "coffee snob" which is how I am afraid you are coming over, this may not have been you intention but re-read your comment and you will see that is how you sound.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

mremanxx said:


> I actually think that is a really ignorant comment to make to be honest, you have no idea of my culinary tastes or eating habits. I am an extremely good cook who can easily distinguish good food from bad and have never eaten in Wetherspoons. As I previously stated, I accept that fresh coffee will make a much nicer cup than mass market stuff, that is not the topic of this thread, it was to find out why my coffee that I like the taste of(taste is one of the most subjective of the senses by the way. ) is now much stronger than it was in my B2C, my understanding of this Forum was for people to share thoughts,ideas and learn things, not to be ridiculed by a "coffee snob" which is how I am afraid you are coming over, this may not have been you intention but re-read your comment and you will see that is how you sound.


Right. Well supporting the unfair trade of the coffee industry based on your being a 'tight jock' is a pretty ignorant way to look at a drink you claim to love and enjoy.

Yeah, I'm a massive snob when it comes to coffee, but I believe in paying the extra money to support a culture and industry that I'd like to say I'm deeply involved and in love with.

If you are such a foodie and culinary wizard, wouldn't you really have a nice grass fed joint of beef from a local farmer? An ethically sourced sea bass from sustainable farms in Anglesey? Locally grown asparagus from an organic farm? Why should what you drink be any different?

There are plenty of decent, way more ethical roasters that don't abuse the trade links between them and their coffee farmers who roast to a similar profile that you'll be used to. Its just a matter of whether you want to mask your hypocrisy with a saving of the odd quid or two.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Scotford said:


> Right. Well supporting the unfair trade of the coffee industry based on your being a 'tight jock' is a pretty ignorant way to look at a drink you claim to love and enjoy.
> 
> Yeah, I'm a massive snob when it comes to coffee, but I believe in paying the extra money to support a culture and industry that I'd like to say I'm deeply involved and in love with.
> 
> ...


Because like most things in life "normal" people have to make comprimises, obviously you don't have to. Lucky you. That doesn't give you the right to act like in this way and presume to know me or judge my choices.

By all means have an opinion, but why not be more like everyone else who has posted and be constructive or jocular?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok agree to disagree please...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

the range of shot that you are producing from the equipment that you have seems very high 1- 3 is verging on lungo xl. Without trying to sound condescending, the beans that you are using are shite, when you move to a better bean you will get much more from your equipment. We don't even get the best of the Italian roasts here, as when they are fresh you get a much better experience from say Illy (who roast for the Italian market). Most people on here have moved away from super market bought generic beans in favour of fresh beans from some of the great roasters that we have here I the uk, that is what the forum tends to be about.

You wonder why supermarkets sell lots of beans still? the primary reason is that average jo public just don't know any different and will believe all of the marketing and not take time to come on a forum and discuss what they are doing. Great that you have done that and hopefully you will see some significant improvements in your coffee. you may also want to look at more delicate coffees to get a more subtle flavour than the in your face style that is lavazza. Italian Job will be better, but is not a subtle coffee.

Finally, if you are still enjoying the coffee that you get from the lavazza beans in your bean to cup then be happy that you are enjoying coffee.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Ahhh, name calling. The lowest bastion of churlishness. No need.

You have stated previously that you don't want to pay for decent beans. Even if it does mean the odd pound per kilo more. Your perogative.

Apologies if it felt as if you were being ridiculed, I see that my original post could be construed as being aimed directly at you but it wasn't. It was more of a general statement comparing the two situations which was worded wrongly.

Now, in light of the original conundrum, have you tried down dosing slightly and keeping to the same extraction ratio?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I have just ordered some italian roast from Rave so should be able to do a comparison soon. Should tell me if I have tastebuds that work


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I love the smell of tr*ll in the morning...


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Scotford said:


> Ahhh, name calling. The lowest bastion of churlishness. No need.
> 
> You have stated previously that you don't want to pay for decent beans. Even if it does mean the odd pound per kilo more. Your perogative.
> 
> ...


Apology accepted and past comments made from each party forgotten.

It is not so much a point of not wanting to pay extra for better beans it is the mystery why mass produced beans tasted good to me in my B2C and not when I use them in the Classic.

The poor analogy I made about wine should really have read that you expect a bottle of wine at £20 to taste better than one at £8, but that shouldn't mean that the one at £8 should be undrinkable.

Have tried various permutations and will be keen to see the difference the beans from Rave make.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

All is well! I do quite often come across a bit, well, blunt.

You'll get on infinitely better with Rave than the devils dregs. I guarantee it. (Plus, you're a single step closer to the source of this wonderful addiction.)


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## roaringboy (Jun 14, 2014)

MWJB said:


> It might tell you what the puck weighs.


OK, I walked into that one. Not sure why the f*#k you would want to know that, though!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

roaringboy said:


> OK, I walked into that one. Not sure why the f*#k you would want to know that, though!


Ha ha, if mremanxx makes a shot with his B2C that he likes, he can weigh the shot, but he doesn't really know the dose to any useful degree. The spent puck will hold roughly it's own weight in water, so divide the spent puck weight by 2 and you have a dose & ball park brew ratio to shoot for. Not exact, but a start point, rather than trying BR ratios willy nilly, or suggested by folk drinking much "stronger" coffee (strength - whether accurate description or not, being mremanxx's problem).


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Can't believe it. 3 double shots of the following.

14g in 28g out in 20seconds for each shot, didn't look too bad.

Added my 60ml Amaretto for the recipe.

Had about 100ml left over so dumped it in a cup added 100ml hot water,100ml milk and heated.

Best bloody coffee I have had yet

Maybe alcohol is the answer to lifes problems.


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## roaringboy (Jun 14, 2014)

mremanxx said:


> Can't believe it. 3 double shots of the following.
> 
> 14g in 28g out in 20seconds for each shot, didn't look too bad.
> 
> ...


That sounds ghastly.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I was surprised how nice it was to be honest, if you have any amaretto try it. I never drink Irish coffees etc as a norm


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Booze for breakfast?

Did someone call me?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Can't believe it. 3 double shots of the following.
> 
> 14g in 28g out in 20seconds for each shot, didn't look too bad.
> 
> ...


You could easily make a flat white with 100ml of milk


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Can't believe it. 3 double shots of the following.
> 
> 14g in 28g out in 20seconds for each shot, didn't look too bad.
> 
> ...


It is possible (although possibly debatable) that alcohol might be the answer to some of lifes problems!

It is entirely beyond comprehension that Amaretto (with or without coffee) is included in the answer.....

My wife likes marzipan enough to eat chunks and even she draws the line at Amaretto!

I will defend to the death your right to drink pre-ground Lavazza from a B2C but a line must be drawn somewhere - Amaretto!! You are on your own!


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> You could easily make a flat white with 100ml of milk


Bugger off you


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Drewster said:


> It is possible (although possibly debatable) that alcohol might be the answer to some of lifes problems!


More than JUST possible. Necessary.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Drewster said:


> It is possible (although possibly debatable) that alcohol might be the answer to some of lifes problems!
> 
> It is entirely beyond comprehension that Amaretto (with or without coffee) is included in the answer.....
> 
> ...










Unfortunately tiramisu is one of my favourite deserts, used Limoncello before but has to be amaretto


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Scotford said:


> More than JUST possible. Necessary.










sounds like a married man


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

mremanxx said:


> sounds like a married man


Faaaaaar from it. Neither married or in a relationship.

I just like a drink!


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Scotford said:


> Faaaaaar from it. Neither married or in a relationship.
> 
> I just like a drink!


PMSL, from one who is married and currently waiting on her putting on war paint so we can go out to eat.......I'm starving


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Unfortunately tiramisu is one of my favourite deserts, used Limoncello before but has to be amaretto


I wouldn't put Amaretto anywhere near Tiramisu either! (Although I would in preference to Limoncello)

I did once get very errrrm "tipsy" on Limoncello..... well to be perfectly honest...

a) A few beers

b) A few glasses of wine

c) A couple of Grappa

and then far too much Limoncello!!!!!

In my defence the pre-dinner beers were OK

The glasses of wine were very nice with the dinner

As I was in Italy I felt I "must" have a Grappa....

The waiter insisted that the girls (MrsD and 3 Drewster-ettes) "must" have Limoncello (on the house)...

Unfortunately they (all) decided they didn't like it...

but they also agreed that as the waiter was so nice it would be rude not to drink it - so they insisted that I drink it....

Then the waiter came back and happily insisted that I should have another Grappa (on the house)...

Oh and that the girls obviously needed another Limoncello.....

Obviously by this stage it was impossible to tell him that they really didn't like it - So they made me drink them all as well......

As I said errrmmm a little "tipsy"............


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Drewster said:


> I will defend to the death your right to drink pre-ground Lavazza from a B2C but a line must be drawn somewhere - Amaretto!! You are on your own!


I don't mind a bit of Amaretto. Had a bottle kicking about for a while that was the 'booze of last resort' for when there was nothing else left. Drinkable with coke, very nice in a 'Dr Pepper' drink - wee bit of coke, wee bit of lager, shot of Amaretto dropped in Jager Bomb style. So tasty.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I don't mind a bit of Amaretto. Had a bottle *kicking about for a while* that was the '*booze of last resort*' for when there was nothing else left. Drinkable *with coke*, very nice in a '*Dr Pepper*' drink - wee bit of *coke*, wee bit of *lager*, shot of Amaretto dropped in Jager Bomb style. So tasty.


I rest my case!!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Drinkable with coke, very nice in a 'Dr Pepper' drink - wee bit of coke, wee bit of lager, shot of Amaretto dropped in Jager Bomb style. So tasty.


Might give this a go right now... Swapping the amaretto for brandy though.


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## iyah_roch11 (Jan 18, 2015)

Hi! guys. There was also this great coffee website . You may want to check morningbeverage.com

If your a coffee lover you may consider checking this website. Hope you like it.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Scotford said:


> Might give this a go right now... Swapping the amaretto for brandy though.


A nice shot of Armagnac (Janneau will do) mixed with another shot of Armagnac...... Now you are talking my language!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Balls to it, I'm just having a double strength aeropress topped up with brandy and espresso vodka.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Right time for an update...

Now using freshly roasted beans from Rave, Italian blend.

Must be doing something wrong, coffee is tasting better, not so bitter but not a massive improvement.

Now been trying different combinations of grind/tamp weight in etc but not finding any combination that is making a huge difference.

Using gaggia classic with OPV mod and sage pro grinder, anyone else using this set up that they are getting good shots with(I know that taste is subjective, it's what makes this lark so bloody difficult).

I am pulling 30ml shots from 14-15g coffee in 15 - 25 secs depending on variables.

Ta


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

grind is too coarse. do you have an unpressurised basket?


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Sounds like a low dose for a gaggia classic double. Standard dose is 18g. Up the dose, tighten the grind.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Try using 17 into 30 in 25+secs. That'll bring out a bit more sweetness and depth of flavour.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

No un pressuried basket, found that 18g is too much for the standard basket and can not close handle


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Tightening the grind will allow you to pack a bit more in. Try 17.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Ok, just been reading about tamp pressures, I am away off, most articles state 30lbs??? Is this a norm for you guys> Are the auto tamper things ant good?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> Ok, just been reading about tamp pressures, I am away off, most articles state 30lbs??? Is this a norm for you guys> Are the auto tamper things ant good?


I think 30lb is an old concept. Consistency is more important. I have a click mat but I'd say the tampers are excessive and restrict choice of tamper size.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

mremanxx said:


> No un pressuried basket, found that 18g is too much for the standard basket and can not close handle


Your grind is definitely too coarse then. There should be no problem fitting 18g in a standard classic double.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Yeah the 30lb is outdated. There are so many ways to tamp these days. Consistency is key.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

So would you recommend keeping the same tamp pressure(say 5kg) and only ever change the grind if coffee weight is say 18g to achieve a 25-30 second pull? Just thought that tamp affects the taste is shot runs too slow or fast, similar to grind etc


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

No fecking sleep tonight due to caffeine intake again


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Keep the variables at a minimum and change one thing at a time.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Keep everything the same apart from grind size. Trying to vary your tamping pressure will lead to (more) frustration.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Scotford said:


> Keep the variables at a minimum and change one thing at a time.


Been tying this but feel that I'm chasing my tail, what would you change if you felt the taste was too strong and bitter? This is my predominant issue.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Too strong change ratio longer.

Too bitter grind coarser.

Your post a bit earlier mentioned "30ml", why no shot weight? A 30ml shot will weigh less than 30g, so go longer and keep same grind for now, as it's less likely that you are overextracting (one, but not the only cause of bitterness).


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I am weighing, just as I cook a lot 30ml and 30g of fluid are the same, try it.

So I will try a 1:2.5.

Is the colour of the crema a good indicator of strength/bitterness or is that more to do with the type of bean, just my crema always looks fairly dark to some youtube vids.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mremanxx said:


> I am weighing, just as I cook a lot 30ml and 30g of fluid are the same, try it.
> 
> So I will try a 1:2.5.
> 
> Is the colour of the crema a good indicator of strength/bitterness or is that more to do with the type of bean, just my crema always looks fairly dark to some youtube vids.


So are you weighing output , or judging by volume by eye....?

This discussion has been had alot on here but water and espresso aren't the same density , plus where and when would one measure volume ? Crema subsides for example......

If you are weighing in an out then all good....eyballing by volume isnt the same measurement....

Crema doesnt taste nice ..different beans and blends and roasts will produce different types and level of crema


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

30ml total volume will weigh less than 30g as crema is much less dense than the rest of the shot and also because coffee dissolves into water making it more dense.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Hopefully your espresso had about 10% more stuff in it than water.

Does 30ml of gravy weigh the same as 30ml water?


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

It's all to do with volumetric density, the figures match for me but let's not get off on a tangent.

I am weighing 18g coffee grinds in and my output is 30g of coffee (should be 36g for a 1:2 i presume)

I am not getting much crema and shots tamped at 5kg pulling at 25-28 seconds but very dark and not over bitter but when I add hot water to finish drink is only ok.

Now if I grind courser to reduce bitterness as suggested I definately will not get 18g in the basket, should I then use a triple basket to maintain the 18g or will that throw everything off by allowing more water to act on the top of the puck?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Woah! Who said grind coarser? You said your shots were too strong, pull longer. You said they were too bitter, but at less than 30g out from 18g they are unlikely to be overextracted, so you need to extract more, (finer grind, don't go coarser).

If you are struggling to get 18g in the basket now, maybe reduce dose to get decent headspace between puck & shower screen (2-3mm).

Crema on short shots will be darker than long....roast will affect crema colour. Are you going to paint a portrait of the shot or drink it? Focus on taste.

We know about volumetric density, that's why you are demonstrably wrong, sorry, I don't mean to be harsh, but your assumptions aren't correct.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Also re creama and shot quality this would be worth spending 2 minutes watching....


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## roaringboy (Jun 14, 2014)

It all depends on the taste. After experimenting, I've found I really like 18g in, 32g out. Anywhere between 25 and 30 seconds usually what I aim for.

Crema looks great, but is basically just a byproduct of an oily bean I believe. Its often used (wrongly) as a marker of a great shot but the two don't necessarily go hand in hand.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Woah! Who said grind coarser? You said your shots were too strong, pull longer. You said they were too bitter, but at less than 30g out from 18g they are unlikely to be overextracted, so you need to extract more, (finer grind, don't go coarser).
> 
> If you are struggling to get 18g in the basket now, maybe reduce dose to get decent headspace between puck & shower screen (2-3mm).
> 
> ...


PMSL MWJB........you did

Too strong change ratio longer.

Too bitter grind coarser.

I am probably still not understanding the concept


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Also re creama and shot quality this would be worth spending 2 minutes watching....


Cheers Boots, have watched a couple of the videos from these guys. I sort of thought that most of the taste/crema colour came from the roasting, makes sense.

Can't remember who said it already,, probably a few people...taste is king disregard almost everything else.good advice me thinks


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Too strong change ratio longer.
> 
> Too bitter grind coarser.
> 
> Your post a bit earlier mentioned "30ml", why no shot weight? A 30ml shot will weigh less than 30g, so go longer and keep same grind for now, as it's less likely that you are overextracting (one, but not the only cause of bitterness).


This is the post you are referring to...

Typically, yes, a bitter shot would lead you to grind coarser, but as I mentioned, your brew ratio is very short, it is unlikely to be overextracting. So, I suggested going longer & keeping the same grind...you may possibly even need to go finer.

The concept is this: For your dose weight, a shorter shot requires a finer grind, a longer shot requires a coarser grind to achieve a balanced taste. You don't seem to have hit on that yet, so aim for a ratio and stick to it, adjust grind to steer the taste.

Brew ratio sets strength (longer = weaker), grind balances the flavour at a given brew ratio. If you don't use consistent weights for dose & shot, you have 2 main variables, rather than one...different brew ratios & different grinds, makes things tougher.

Sounds like a lot of fuss over small differences, but the difference between a really good shot and an average one is very small, maybe a couple of grams.


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

MWJB said:


> This is the post you are referring to...
> 
> Typically, yes, a bitter shot would lead you to grind coarser, but as I mentioned, your brew ratio is very short, it is unlikely to be overextracting. So, I suggested going longer & keeping the same grind...you may possibly even need to go finer.
> 
> ...


Cheers bud, now I know why Nescafe make so much bloody money

Suppose if I wasn't doing this it would be something else.


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