# The 25 second shot



## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Hi all.

I took delivery of a Gaggia Classic at the end of November 2012 and, having become very familiar with it's workings, am now trying to refine my technique for pulling shots and milk steaming (can't imagine ever doing latte art mind you). Currently I'm "working" on pulling a consistent and good double shot in 25 seconds and my attempts at doing this have raised a couple of questions and issues;

Firstly, I don't know whether double shot volume includes the crema or whether it's the coffee only. Previously I've stopped pulling when the crema reaches the 2.5 shot mark on my graduated Rattleware 3oz shot pitcher, leaving 2 fl oz of dark brown coffee and 0.5 fl oz of crema.

Having measured my normal shot pulling I discover that I've been pulling that double in less than 20 seconds, probably nearer 15. In truth I've not been too scientific with dosing previuosly, simply using 2 level scoops of beans per double shot, so to improve the brew I began weighing 18g of beans instead (to go in the standard double basket that shipped with the Classic). Although this slightly lengthened the shot pull time it wasn't by much, so I ground the beans at 4 (instead of 5 or 6) on my Gaggia MDF grinder and tamped increasingly more firmly. Even this seemed to have had little effect on the time it took to fill the shot glass to 2.5 fl oz, but when I stopped the brewing and the drink settled I discovered that my crema thickness had doubled, leaving me with 1.5 fl oz of coffee and 1 fl oz of "head". Is that normal or am I obviously (to you wiser heads) doing something incorrectly?

Thanks in advance for any input.

Steve.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If you are fixing and weighing dose the next logical step is to weigh the output of your shot and then work out what ratio you are obtaining in the fixed time & noting how it tastes and adusting from there

18g in

(e.g) 35g out = ratio of 1.9

25 seconds

Note all variables can be changed for differing results in the cup, but for now I would fix the dose and time, adjusting the ratio based on grind setting changes


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

The single biggest improvement I made with espresso once set up to go was weighing beans dry input and then espresso liquid output. If you try to keep certain parameters consistent then you can identify what your target ratio will be. The initial step is to identify what your target ratio is based on your taste preferences, see Mikes old blog for a guide. Then you adjust grind accordingly to reach your target ratio and extraction time, assuming dry input remains constant.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If you are fixing and weighing dose the next logical step is to weigh the output of your shot and then work out what ratio you are obtaining in the fixed time & noting how it tastes and adusting from there
> 
> 18g in
> 
> ...


Agreed, weight is a more consistent measure than volume..

Aim for you target ratio (e.g. 1.9) in 25-30 seconds

Then taste the shot!

If its too bitter (over-extracted) then grind a little coarser

If its too sour (under-extracted) then grind a little finer

Just change the grind to start with, and aim for that target ratio each time (the time will obviously change).

You should reach a point where the balance between bitter and sour is perfect


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

Can I just check. You said altering your grind and tamp made little difference, are you using the pressurised basket that came with the classic? I have no idea of your level of knowledge, so forgive me if this is patronising; the pressurised basket effectively has one hole out the bottom of the basket, where a normal filter has tens/hundreds of holes.

If you are using the pressurised one, first thing you need to do is get a standard basket. If you are using a standard basket then you need to adjust your grind finer by the sounds of things. Don't get too carried away with the tamp, people will argue different techniques, but I find you don't need to tamp as hard as you may first think.

I agree with the others that weight is better, it's more consistent, however if you are using volume for now then a shot, or double does include the crema


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Thanks all. I am a novice for sure and yes Seeq, I'm using the pressurised basket that was packaged with the Classic. However, I did order a VST basket (ridgeless 18g) on Tuesday and was hoping to receive it today (I ordered it from Square Mile Roasters and hope it may come tomorrow along with the beans that I ordered at the same time and which are roasted today). If that makes such a difference I look forward to re-learning a few things on Friday or Saturday. Thanks too for clarifying about the crema being part of the shot.

Steve.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

You shouldn't time the extraction from a pressurized basket (portafilter) because it won't be the same 20-30sec that people aim for when using non-pressurized baskets. If I recall correctly a pressurized portafilter will always extract the shot faster than a non-pressurized one.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

you'll find you need to re-learn everything. As the pressurised basket basically takes away the need for any specific grind or tamping requirements. You'll likely find you're a long way off on both with the un-pressurised basket


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

Sorry to hijack the thread but there's a mention of ridgeless baskets.

Can anyone tell me what the difference is between a ridged and ridgeless basket please and why one would use either and for what?

I'm still using my standard double Gaggia but I'm only gonna change if it makes a massive difference to the shot pulled. That I can only find out from you guys that have changed over. Any thoughts?

Cheers

Craig.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

the ridged one stays in the portafilter better









taste wise.. i'm not sure theres much difference.


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

So which one would you go for and what size?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

well i dont think you can get ridgeless as easilly any more. The ridged are easier to come by, and its the one i'm ordering. Because i'm just not that fussy









i've gone for 15g because its all my naked portafilter will take, and because i prefer smaller shots. Rumour is that the 18g is more forgiving and allows you a decent latitude between 17 and 19g of coffee.

if your PF will take it, the 18 is probably the best all rounder


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

Cheers. What make and is there a particular cheaper supplier?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

the good ones are made by VST or La Marzocco (same thing) and are available from many stores.

madebyknock do baskets with perfectly matched tampers for a decent bundle price (where i got mine)

hasbean sell the baskets by themselves

coffeehit have the LM baskets quite cheap, but never seem to have them in stock!


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

Ill take a look ;-)


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

seeq said:


> Don't get too carried away with the tamp, people will argue different techniques, but I find you don't need to tamp as hard as you may first think.


Tamping should really be roughly consistent between shots I have found, and a good tamper is helpful... When I bought the L1, Reiss said he would send me a complimentary tamper, various things have happened and so far this hasn't happened... I ain't complaining either... but I was using the supplied one, which is the plastic (good for nothing one) and getting some occasional odd results. I stumped up £26 to "Made By Knock" for a 58.35 "Simple Tamper",

http://www.madebyknock.com/simple-tamper.html

and though not the heaviest, it does have enough weight to really do not much more than rest it on the bed, and it fits the L1 baskets perfectly...

...The important thing to this novice was to get a good seal and a level coffee bed, and my consistent shot quality has improved quite dramatically.

NB: Further edit... The tamper is also the one that fits the VST baskets mentioned above, I already bought a 22g one of those from CoffeeHit for having a go at "updosing"...

...My experience so far... Helps to mimic a "20g triple" in the L1, which might make a passable latte for breakfast, but coffee, it is not (qualifier... "in my experience").


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

xtrashot7 said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread but there's a mention of ridgeless baskets.
> 
> Can anyone tell me what the difference is between a ridged and ridgeless basket please and why one would use either and for what?
> 
> ...


I did a bit of forum browsing prior to ordering the ridgeless 18g VST basket, trying to concentrate on discussion relating specifically to the stock Gaggia Classic portafilter. I eventually ordered ridgeless after reading that they are comfortably held by the spring in the Gaggia PF, whilst one guy commented that he had to use a fine slot screwdriver to prise the ridged version out. It always my intention to go for the 18g but I do also recall reading that some of the larger baskets are too deep for the Gaggia PF and require a bottomless one.

Steve.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Oh and I also splashed out on a 58mm Espro tamper (prior to that I'd made the mistake of buying a 53mm Espro) that is supposed to be calibrated to ensure you use the right amount of pressure - I won't know how true that is until I start playing with the VST basket. If anybody is looking for a VERY nearly new 53mm flat bottomed Espro tamper before I put it on eBay let me know.

Steve.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

18g ridgeless VST is what I have, fits in the stock gaggia PF fine


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

Haha. Tampers eh. That plastic effigy that came with the machine is less than crap! I got a brass knock one from Santa. ( how did he know I needed one!)

I've just pulled a tightly tamped 20g big double. It's made a cracking Americano.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Well the VST basket has arrived and, with snow falling fast, I'll probably head home at middayish and start the re-learning process.


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

Report back your findings.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Will do. First couple of shots have been pretty fast flowing but I'm also going to check the pressure on my unit as I gather from another thread that it's common for the Classic to ship with pressure set at way over 10 bar and this too could be a significant factor.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

VST baskets do need a finer grind though. Thats pretty much a given


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

I thought as much, but I'm grinding at 4 on my Gaggia MDF anyway so can't go much finer.

Steve.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

the MDF's finest setting isnt hugely fine anyway, so don't be afraid to go to max


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

shrink said:


> the MDF's finest setting isnt hugely fine anyway, so don't be afraid to go to max


Ah right. Will try a 3 or even 2 next then. In this case looks like I won't be able to grind finely enough to make my eventual attempt at Turkish coffee successful though. Hi hum.

Steve.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

yeah i dont think theres any way (without modifying it) that a gaggia MDF will go fine enough for turkish, you'd need at minimum an Iberital MC2 for that. That said it may be possible to mod your gaggia grinder to take away the stop limit and push the burrs closer together.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Well, I ground on 2 and went for 19g and pulled 30g in 25 seconds. Will try same setting for 18g next methinks.

Steve.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk 2


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

sounds like you're there


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Yeah, fingers crossed I am. One more double to pull before shut down and the Friday back flush and shower screen clean.

Thanks for all the input everybody.

Steve.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I've been pouring spot on shots for a week, altering grind slightly each day as the beans age. Last two days have just been awful, can't get it even close to drinkable. Finally this evening I've got a remotely drinkable shot. Even after two years of practice you can get blown right off track and struggle to get it back!


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## xtrashot7 (Oct 4, 2012)

I'm getting consistency for the first time. I put my freshly roasted bean varieties away as I got my hands on some costa coffee beans for free. Shot after shot has come out very good. Need to get my hands on a steady supply of them.

My porlex grinder is becoming a chore so I'm gonna look at getting a pre owned grinder MC2 or something similar.


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## Rob2444 (Jan 23, 2013)

I have never used a pressurized basket so not credible on commenting. However I start timing when the first drop hits the cup and yes I measure the crema just like you stated....25-30 seconds.


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## Steve_S_T (Dec 7, 2012)

Is that the correct timing method then - I start the clock as soon as I hit the on switch which is obviously a few seconds before any liquid hits the shot glass.

Steve.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD


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