# Guidance on budget/reward



## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi coffee lovers, I'm brand new to this forum after a week of lurking and reading as much as I can (and watching a lot of YouTube).

My wife and I love 'good' cappuccino, flat white and I like a double espresso after a meal. For several years our home setup has been a Moka pot and a milk jug frother which has worked well..

I am looking for a setup biased towards milk-based drinks - with speed for early mornings (coffee to go). that brings me onto my ask for advice..

I plan to visit a professional seller for advice and hands on before making a purchase. I know that:

1. The grinder is key - budget around 500

2. The machine.. budget around 1.2k maybe higher. This is where I need most advice..

I was looking at dual boiler machines with PID for the fact I have the best options and fastest setup for doing two cappuccinos quickly. A HX boiler based machine may be all I need but have read there are some compromises. Do these matter much with milk based drinks? it will be two cappuccinos done quickly around 6:30am possibly two more on some days of working at home. The odd espresso after dinner at home. Nice to have is hot water for tea in an evening replacing a kettle for counter top space.

I know I could start with a Gaggia Deluxe or equiv as a start point, but the single boiler seems a faff for espresso and then milk etc.

I am mostly looking for simplicity, repeatability (milk based) and occasional coffee geekery in the quest for a superb espresso.

Hope this is enough for guidance. Being a HiFi fan I know how deep and expensive rabbit holes can be, and the real essence of my thread is where is the right balance of spend and reward and my natural bias towards over engineering everything ?

Thank you in advance, Simon


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

Hi Simon, welcome to the forum!

I'm sure you'll get a few opinions, all of which will be valid. It is difficult to provide unbiased ones, and even more so when it comes to someone else's set up.

From what you said above, your budget is fine, you can get a pretty good set up. Before I continue, please make sure that you are happy with coffee you buy from any coffee shop when you are on the go (ie make sure that you are not so used to the Moka pot flavor profile that anything else tastes bad)

The easy one here is the grinder; go with a Niche zero (unbiased opinion)

In terms of espresso machine, I would go for an E61 (biased), and stretch my budget as much as possible. If you only make 2 cappuccinos in the morning, even a single boiler will do, with a little bit of patience (an extra 5 minutes to get the steam) . My advice (unbiased) would be to look into the Lelit (can't believe I'm saying this...) range, with PID and pressure profiling; you might not use these at the get go,but you'll be glad you have them once you advance your Technique.

Finally, you might need to give up your requirements for simplicity and repeatability for the first few months, until your skill level becomes good enough to achieve them. If it was easy to make great coffee without training and with ease, bad coffee wouldn't exist.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

ArisP said:


> Hi Simon, welcome to the forum!
> 
> I'm sure you'll get a few opinions, all of which will be valid. It is difficult to provide unbiased ones, and even more so when it comes to someone else's set up.
> 
> ...


 Hi! Thank you for great advice and refreshing to see a call out for bias ?

I will look at the coffee machine range. The grinder I was aware of the NZ and seemed to fit my needs well. Are you saying that in terms of speed making a good pair of cappuccinos that single boiler is fine?

as for bad coffee.. almost all espresso based drinks I have out are bad. My go to is costa for what I consider the best example of at least strong milk based drinks..


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Morning at this precise moment there is a super bargain in the for sale at £500 for machine and grinder it's actually will set you up perfect and not lose money when you pass on. I fancy maybe a Turntable this year.


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Hi! Thank you for great advice and refreshing to see a call out for bias ?
> 
> I will look at the coffee machine range. The grinder I was aware of the NZ and seemed to fit my needs well. Are you saying that in terms of speed making a good pair of cappuccinos that single boiler is fine?
> 
> as for bad coffee.. almost all espresso based drinks I have out are bad. My go to is costa for what I consider the best example of at least strong milk based drinks..


 Happy to provide an opinion!

What I am saying, and being as polite as I can so as to not hurt anyone's feelings, is that for people, including myself, who only make a handful of coffees per day, speed should not be a top priority, as it has the least amount of effect on quality/flavor. So yes, in my view, a great single boiler will also do, but YMMV.

I also happen to agree that, for my taste buds, most coffee shops are really bad at making coffee. There is a reason for that, but let's not get into it. I did however wanted to give you a heads up regarding being too used to a flavor profile, and potentially having to re-train your taste buds when you buy the new equipment.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

ArisP said:


> Happy to provide an opinion!
> 
> What I am saying, and being as polite as I can so as to not hurt anyone's feelings, is that for people, including myself, who only make a handful of coffees per day, speed should not be a top priority, as it has the least amount of effect on quality/flavor. So yes, in my view, a great single boiler will also do, but YMMV.
> 
> I also happen to agree that, for my taste buds, most coffee shops are really bad at making coffee. There is a reason for that, but let's not get into it. I did however wanted to give you a heads up regarding being too used to a flavor profile, and potentially having to re-train your taste buds when you buy the new equipment.


 Thanks! The only time I need speed is first thing in the morning when getting ready to leave with a made coffee. This is where I need workflow guidance. Perhaps even on a single boiler I can make two double espresso's and then make one jug of milk for two and not go back and forth re brew, then steam? I am looking forward to tasking the difference with my additional focus.


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Thanks! The only time I need speed is first thing in the morning when getting ready to leave with a made coffee. This is where I need workflow guidance. Perhaps even on a single boiler I can make two double espresso's and then make one jug of milk for two and not go back and forth re brew, then steam? I am looking forward to tasking the difference with my additional focus.


 I guess that depends fully on your timetable, but here are a few things to consider first:

Most E61 machines will need anywhere between 20-40 mins to come to a stable temperature. Most people including myself have added a timer to the mains plug so the machine wakes up 30mins before us.

Time between shots (again for temperature stability) is usually 5mins. That being said, I pull 2 double shots 2 mins apart and the difference in flavor is minimal.

Add the time to weigh, grind, distribute and tamp each shot.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

ArisP said:


> I guess that depends fully on your timetable, but here are a few things to consider first:
> 
> Most E61 machines will need anywhere between 20-40 mins to come to a stable temperature. Most people including myself have added a timer to the mains plug so the machine wakes up 30mins before us.
> 
> ...


 I am hoping to build a workflow that means the evening before I have the beans for each ready to go etc. The last word in flavour accuracy isn't as important as speed for this mode of operation. That is why I was thinking of a larger budget to have a machine that placed less compromise on me from an operational point. Eg dual boilers seem logical to my engineering brain. But, at a cost.. I think a trip to Bella Barista is needed for some hands-on guidance and hands-on experience.


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> I am hoping to build a workflow that means the evening before I have the beans for each ready to go etc. The last word in flavour accuracy isn't as important as speed for this mode of operation. That is why I was thinking of a larger budget to have a machine that placed less compromise on me from an operational point. Eg dual boilers seem logical to my engineering brain. But, at a cost.. I think a trip to Bella Barista is needed for some hands-on guidance and hands-on experience.


 Absolutely, go see and experience the machines up close!

What type of engineer are you BTW?


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

ArisP said:


> Absolutely, go see and experience the machines up close!
> 
> What type of engineer are you BTW?


 A failed one ? Communications/broadcasting/video background for 20+ years.. But went into commercial roles from University. The brain is still engineering though and I evaluate most purchases through that lens.. What I have learned though is I have to manage my bias for the best possible engineering, with the reasoning of investment and how much I will actually use that investment.. HiFi is a great example of that and almost infinite spend potential (and diminishing return)..


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## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Hi! Thank you for great advice and refreshing to see a call out for bias ?
> 
> I will look at the coffee machine range. The grinder I was aware of the NZ and seemed to fit my needs well. Are you saying that in terms of speed making a good pair of cappuccinos that single boiler is fine?
> 
> as for bad coffee.. almost all espresso based drinks I have out are bad. My go to is costa for what I consider the best example of at least strong milk based drinks..


 Before you settle for the Niche Zero take a look around, there are a lot of very capable used grinders for sale, quite a few regularly pop up for sale in the forum and many of them, unlike the Niche, have the added advantage of not looking like a Tommy Tippy nappy bin.


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Mr Binks said:


> Before you settle for the Niche Zero take a look around, there are a lot of very capable used grinders for sale, quite a few regularly pop up for sale in the forum and many of them, unlike the Niche, have the added advantage of not looking like a Tommy Tippy nappy bin.


 Hi - thanks! Sounds like you are a fan ? ... I read good reviews of this machine.. What I need to learn is how much I should 'worry' about beans in hoppers and grind tweaking.. I am happy to assume that I will only ever make espresso-based drinks and likely stick with same beans a lot.. The single dosing seems logical as I can work out a bean dose that works and package these into test tubes as others have. If... in the real-world a stack of beans are fine for a few days of use and the rest of the variables are limited, then a hopper grinder is OK.. Welcome your experience!


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Mr Binks said:


> unlike the Niche, have the added advantage of not looking like a Tommy Tippy nappy bin.


 Brutal. I don't love the looks either, but it does look like a kitchen appliance so is relatively discrete (it's shorten than my ECM!). The problem with the many capable used grinders tends to be they're commercial grade kit....i get excited about it but you've also got to have the right place for it.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

catpuccino said:


> Brutal. I don't love the looks either, but it does look like a kitchen appliance so is relatively discrete (it's shorten than my ECM!). The problem with the many capable used grinders tends to be they're commercial grade kit....i get excited about it but you've also got to have the right place for it.


wouldn't necessarily put a nappy bin into kitchen appliance domain... 
also, for me it looks more like a toilet - which doesn't sit in my kitchen either  but each to their own, as the saying goes.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

M5Sime said:


> Hi - thanks! Sounds like you are a fan ? ... I read good reviews of this machine.. What I need to learn is how much I should 'worry' about beans in hoppers and grind tweaking.. I am happy to assume that I will only ever make espresso-based drinks and likely stick with same beans a lot.. The single dosing seems logical as I can work out a bean dose that works and package these into test tubes as others have. If... in the real-world a stack of beans are fine for a few days of use and the rest of the variables are limited, then a hopper grinder is OK.. Welcome your experience!


 There is a lot to learn, and you will know best where you sit on the how things taste vs how things look. If you want new shiny things they will be more expensive, but they may not taste better than an old second hand one.

As you learn your tastes will change, what you think of now as good coffee will be different in a few months - there is a lot of variation in coffee and tastes. There are a lot of accessories which add to the budget, a decent tamper, scales, naked portafilters, cups, bar towels and especially expensive coffees.

If you are spending money on expensive coffee and you only make one or two coffees a time, single dosing makes a lot of sense.

You might find it worthwhile to get something second-hand very much under budget to get started on, then you'll be clearer about what coffee you want to make (and how). The more common machines and grinders are easily resold, and you will learn - you have to maintain your coffee stuff...

... and I can't think of anything to recommend other than the Niche, and if the whiteness is upsetting it comes in black and if that too is upsetting someone may be along soon to make a customised leather cover in any colour embossed with anything you want. ?


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

If you are only using one type of bean then there are quite a few on demand grinders out there that'll plonk a nice dose of ground coffee in the basket. Niche Zeros are ok and are very good for what they are. I use one with a Moka Pot and a La Pavoni as my other half prefers darker roasts and with milk. if you want to use a grinder for other methods as well (pour over, French Press etc.) then a Niche would be a better option. If you only want it to grind espresso and like the idea of lighter roasts then get a flat burr grinder. A used one will be better value for money than a new one and provide a better flavour profile that conical burr grinders. Some folks would argue against that though, and everyone has a right to their opinion.

As for machines, you wouldn't go far wrong with a Londinium lever machine as and when they pop up for sale on here. That's if you have the room for a lever?


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Hi thank you for the replies so far.. perhaps to refine my ask some more-

if I make two cappuccinos or lattes. Double shot. When looking at SB, HX, DB does it really make any difference other than time? (Perhaps assume all are PID). This seems to be the main cost driver and I'm leaning more to HX or DB as this allows me to steam and extract together. Perhaps I cannot do this for a while based on lack of skill.. but I feel concerned about a SB and waiting for the heat up for steam. Maybe this is a non issue also?

would this be my workflow:

double espresso grind/tamp/extract. Dump the puck. Repeat above, then make milk for two drinks in a larger pitcher. Finished.

best and thank you for patient replies..


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## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Hi thank you for the replies so far.. perhaps to refine my ask some more-
> 
> if I make two cappuccinos or lattes. Double shot. When looking at SB, HX, DB does it really make any difference other than time? (Perhaps assume all are PID). This seems to be the main cost driver and I'm leaning more to HX or DB as this allows me to steam and extract together. Perhaps I cannot do this for a while based on lack of skill.. but I feel concerned about a SB and waiting for the heat up for steam. Maybe this is a non issue also?
> 
> ...


 The following thread would be a very useful read for you with regards to what you get with each kind of machine, single or double boiler etc.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/16160-machines-what-do-you-get-for-your-money/?do=embed


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## AJSK66 (Jun 3, 2019)

Wow some brutal opinions on the NZ look. Imo it's the best looking grinder for the kitchen I've seen, all the other grinders at that price point are huge in comparison. Is there any other grinder comparable in quality and also a similar size?

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

AJSK66 said:


> Wow some brutal opinions on the NZ look. Imo it's the best looking grinder for the kitchen I've seen, all the other grinders at that price point are huge in comparison. Is there any other grinder comparable in quality and also a similar size?
> 
> Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk


from new? not really, because at that price a manufacturer needs to make different compromises on the components they throw in.
Next thing is warranty other manufacturers factor in their retail price. As long as the Niche is being sold through crowdfunding, all liability is basically waived and parts availability/distribution is based on Niche's goodwill.


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

Hasi said:


> from new? not really, because at that price a manufacturer needs to make different compromises on the components they throw in.
> Next thing is warranty other manufacturers factor in their retail price. As long as the Niche is being sold through crowdfunding, all liability is basically waived and parts availability/distribution is based on Niche's goodwill.


 Crowd funding was why i could not justify the Niche


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

Mr Binks said:


> The following thread would be a very useful read for you with regards to what you get with each kind of machine, single or double boiler etc.


 Thank you! I read this.. I have done all of the 'engineering' research on how the machines work.. The part I am at is - how much does this matter in my scenario? I guess it is HX vs DB as SB seems to have limitations that I may find frustrating in workflow. I can read all the info and watch all the videos on the boilers and machine types - but what I really hope to get is real-world experience of whether compromises in the technology (for budget reasons) make real differences to how people make milk-based drinks.. Probably not (and hence why I will go to see and play with the machines and make a decision that way)..

As you may have noticed, I am more interested in how simple and logical the workflow is vs the ability to experiment and tweak.


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## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

M5Sime said:


> Thank you! I read this.. I have done all of the 'engineering' research on how the machines work.. The part I am at is - how much does this matter in my scenario? I guess it is HX vs DB as SB seems to have limitations that I may find frustrating in workflow. I can read all the info and watch all the videos on the boilers and machine types - but what I really hope to get is real-world experience of whether compromises in the technology (for budget reasons) make real differences to how people make milk-based drinks.. Probably not (and hence why I will go to see and play with the machines and make a decision that way)..
> 
> As you may have noticed, I am more interested in how simple and logical the workflow is vs the ability to experiment and tweak.


 Well the Heat Exchanger option is going to be a quicker workflow from the point of switching the machine on but it is only a marginal gain. For ease of use and shot consistency then the more stable heat profile from a double boiler would probably suite you better, heat exchangers rely on a single boiler and as the water in that boiler is used it is replaced with colder water that will have an effect on the temprature of the water deliverd to the group head by the heat exchanger. Of course this is only my opinion, other opinions vary and are available.....


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

As I understand it you have two considerations:

1) Workflow for milk drinks. I visited Bella Barista last Friday and was shown 'live' that by the time you've made one drink and prepped the second shot the machine is ready to go again. Or in other words, there is a slight recovery time on a HX machine but it's as quick as the human side of the workflow.

So, speed is a draw.

2) Espresso. You say you only have the odd espresso. You also say you're aware of the rabbit hole effect. Espresso has its own rabbit hole. I'd argue that if you're willing to pay £1k+ on a coffee machine then you're willing to dive down the rabbit hole! You may not be chasing the 'god shot' yet, but it'll come and getting a DB will give you space to grow - specifically due to the more precise temperature control and even pressure profiling (dependant on which machine you get).

So, I'd recommend a DB for that reason. Having done it I can't recommend a visit to a showroom enough. It's the only way to understand the look and size of the machines but also how they feel e.g. the lever action on an ECM feels totally different to a Rocket. If you're anywhere near Bella Barista then take a trip there, they really looked after me.

For what's it's worth, I've opted for a Niche and a Lelit Bianca. Probably would have gone with an ECM Synchronika were it not so big and expensive.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

@KingoftheHeath I genuinely think I saw you in Bella Barista on Friday... buying your Bianca (I think?). Were you there around 11:00 - 12:00ish?


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## M5Sime (Jan 5, 2020)

KingoftheHeath said:


> As I understand it you have two considerations:
> 
> 1) Workflow for milk drinks. I visited Bella Barista last Friday and was shown 'live' that by the time you've made one drink and prepped the second shot the machine is ready to go again. Or in other words, there is a slight recovery time on a HX machine but it's as quick as the human side of the workflow.
> 
> ...


 Thank you so much!! Great advice and feedback.. I will make the visit and I am looking forward to it.. The point is well made Sir on the spend vs reward for Espresso. I will take a look at the Bianca also ?


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Cooffe said:


> @KingoftheHeath I genuinely think I saw you in Bella Barista on Friday... buying your Bianca (I think?). Were you there around 11:00 - 12:00ish?


I think I arrived at 2ish.

Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

@M5Sime The Bianca is good for two reasons. 1) it has a rotary pump so is quiet, and saves you rattling the house when you need to be quiet (late at night, early morning etc.) and 2) it can profile shots, which is a great benefit. I personally have an ACS Minima, which is a dual boiler with a vibe pump. It's blessed with a large service boiler so can steam milk quickly once purged. Vibe pumps have a slow ramp up, however, which allows for a tiny bit of pre-infusion before going straight to 9bar, which is something that rotary pumps do. The Lelit you can mimic this however due to the flow capability, and it's fairly easy due to the visible pressure gauge and the paddle on top.

I too own a Niche Zero and use it as my regular grinder, and the workflow isn't too bad for the first two cups, after that it gets tiresome. I steam milk whilst running the shot as they both tend to be ready at the same time - this is the major benefit of the dual boiler. A Dual Boiler with an e61 group would be good (I'm biased) for temperature stability, but they do require pre-heating. I have mine on a TP-Link switch so I can turn it on on my phone, allowing it to pre-heat whilst I am driving home (what a time to be alive, eh?).

As others have said - think about the cost vs benefit. A Gaggia & Niche Zero combo will get you 80% of the way there for a relatively small cost. The final 20% is where the money is spent on serious grinders (Look at KafaTeK grinders if you are inclined to single dose), and machines (ECM Synchronica, Profitec, ACS Vesivius, the new Rocket R91). I'm kind of happy with what I have at the moment, but am starting to catch the upgrade bug again for a profile machine.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

KingoftheHeath said:


> I think I arrived at 2ish.
> 
> Sent from my SM-G965F using Tapatalk


 Ah maybe I didn't see you then. I left by 1. There was someone else there eyeing up a Bianca and/or ECM


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