# Help, my espresso tastes really bland.



## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi,

I hope I am using the correct thread. I have recently acquired a Mini Vivaldi. Coming from a Gaggia, it is quite an upgrade for me.

I seem to be having trouble dialling my coffee in. I have used various weights, 14g, 15g and 16g and I have been playing with temperature to see if this makes a difference. My problem is, the espresso just tastes really quite bland. Not bitter, not sour but bland, kind of like Nescafe.

My beans are two days from roasting right now so they will need a few more days. Is this a sign that I need to wait until they settle?

I have been dialling in around a 28 sec shot of around 25 to 30g and it usually blonds just before I cut it.

Thanks for help in advance!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Your beans won't have degassed. What happens is when you pull a shot, the released CO2 will cause back pressure and lead to poor extraction which probably could explain what describe as bland tasting coffee. What beans are you using? On the safe side, leave them anything for seven to ten days to degas.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

I am using La Bastilla from Wogan coffee. So that poor extraction wouldn't necessarily be visual? The pour does look ok. How would the crema behave if they haven't degassed properly? Thanks for the quick reply!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

superdudeo said:


> I am using La Bastilla from Wogan coffee. So that poor extraction wouldn't necessarily be visual? The pour does look ok. How would the crema behave if they haven't degassed properly? Thanks for the quick reply!


Does the shot taste sourish - more acidic/lemon? This is the characteristic taste of under-extraction which can be caused by beans that haven't been properly degassed - not the only cause I hasten to add. Is the crema quite pronounced? You can do a little experiment. Take an identical dose of the ground beans. Leave them for an hour before you put them into the portafilter and tamp. This will allow the CO2 to dissipate. Then make your shot following your usual routine and taste and see if there is any difference. Must stress leaving fresh ground coffee to stand is not recommended as the volatile aromatics will disappear but it will show you the relationship between properly/not properly degassed beans.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

No, not acidic or lemony. Just bland and unexciting. No tiger striping, crema is not especially pronounced but does dissipate a little quick with small bubbles after a while. I will attempt your experiment tomorrow to see if its makes a difference, thanks.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

So my beans are properly rested now and I still cannot seem to get the sweet spot. My best espresso seems to run counter to what is recommended for a mini Vivaldi. People say it is best at lower dosages of 14, 15 and 16g but I seem to be getting the best at 18g.

The crema is better now but I don't seem to be getting a wow cup. I seem to be getting a few bubbles on the top of my crema. Does anyone know what this is an indication of? Thanks


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

superdudeo said:


> So my beans are properly rested now and I still cannot seem to get the sweet spot. My best espresso seems to run counter to what is recommended for a mini Vivaldi. People say it is best at lower dosages of 14, 15 and 16g but I seem to be getting the best at 18g. The crema is better now but I don't seem to be getting a wow cup. I seem to be getting a few bubbles on the top of my crema. Does anyone know what this is an indication of? Thanks


What grinder are you using? If you are having to updose, it may be down to your grinder. Also, how old is it - are the burrs in good condition?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

superdudeo said:


> So my beans are properly rested now and I still cannot seem to get the sweet spot. My best espresso seems to run counter to what is recommended for a mini Vivaldi. People say it is best at lower dosages of 14, 15 and 16g but I seem to be getting the best at 18g.
> 
> The crema is better now but I don't seem to be getting a wow cup. I seem to be getting a few bubbles on the top of my crema. Does anyone know what this is an indication of? Thanks


Also you may just have different tastes to other people with a Vivaldi , the dose and what you prefer could be down to your tastes , the coffee your using and it's type of roast .

you may just not like the coffee ? Have you tried more than one bean or had this before ?

Also are you using a spouted PF or a naked one ?


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Hmm.. How long has your machine been switched on before attempting these shots?


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi, Thanks for both of your quick replies.

I have a super jolly, I got it 2nd hand but I don't think it's too old. I don't know how to tell if the burrs are wearing.

I am new to my Vivaldi, these are the first set of beans, it could be the beans and my taste etc. I have some Rave Signature coming today. I am using a normal PF, not naked. The pour looks good, a few noticeable larger bubbles on top of crema perhaps.


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Other possible issue. Your grind is too coarse w/too hard tamp OR your grind is too fine w/too light tamp. Make sure you're tamping at around 30lbs pressure. Should get you very close.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

poona said:


> Hmm.. How long has your machine been switched on before attempting these shots?


At least an hour, 2nd shot into the 2nd hour.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok cool , this is my opinion only but sig is a good milk blend , I'm not sure I find it wow as espresso on it own . You may be the same .

Re burrs feel em , you can tell if blunt or sharp by touch. Or take and post one here .


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

poona said:


> Other possible issue. Your grind is too coarse w/too hard tamp OR your grind is too fine w/too light tamp. Make sure you're tamping at around 30lbs pressure. Should get you very close.


I have always light tamped with the Vivaldi, as people say this is the best but I think I will try your 2nd suggestion. It's probably the only thing I haven't done. I'll go harder with the tamp.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok cool , this is my opinion only but sig is a good milk blend , I'm not sure I find it wow as espresso on it own . You may be the same .
> 
> Re burrs feel em , you can tell if blunt or sharp by touch. Or take and post one here .


When I say espresso, I really mean a flat white to be honest! But maybe less milk. I've heard Rave Signature is therefore good for my preferred cup.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

superdudeo said:


> When I say espresso, I really mean a flat white to be honest! But maybe less milk. I've heard Rave Signature is therefore good for my preferred cup.


Yep it's a great milk blend, smooth , nice nutty and choc taste in milk .

How does the milk taste on its own after steaming ? Nice and sweet ?

Personally if you have a tamp you cam repeat each time I'd keep it as it is and move the grind and dose to get a longer or different tasting extraction.

If the tamp is level and t the distribution is good , then that's they key thing .

Without a naked PF it's a big hard to tell if your extractions are suffering from dead wholes or channeling . Although it sounds lie, your in the right ball park for time .


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Use a set of bathroom scales to get you into the ballpark re 30lbs


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

poona said:


> Use a set of bathroom scales to get you into the ballpark re 30lbs


This is a bit of a red herring tbh, provided your tamp pressure is consistent it does not actually need to be 30lbs, ask all the L1 owners or people who nutate before tamping, a straight down consistent pressure is what is needed, the level of pressure may vary from bean to bean and at different grind levels. We all agree that from bean to bean , grind ;level , dose, PID temp, length of pre-infusion etc can vary so why are people so hung up on this semi-mythical 30lbs tamping pressure as this will change from bean to bean anyway.


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## Piccolo Espresso (Feb 25, 2014)

Loads of variables when making espresso. Choose a tamp pressure that's comfortable and stick with that pressure.(one less variable)

Vivaldi uses deep baskets if memory is correct, so try upping the dose and coarser grind to keep flow the same.Taste. If no good try different temps.

Regarding tiny bubbles on crema, defo degassing. Try making your flat white or latte/cap, if crema pitts quickly around the foam...too gassy.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yep it's a great milk blend, smooth , nice nutty and choc taste in milk .
> 
> How does the milk taste on its own after steaming ? Nice and sweet ?
> 
> ...


I have to say that I tried the milk earlier and it didn't taste sweet. I use 2%.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Piccolo Espresso said:


> Loads of variables when making espresso. Choose a tamp pressure that's comfortable and stick with that pressure.(one less variable)
> 
> Vivaldi uses deep baskets if memory is correct, so try upping the dose and coarser grind to keep flow the same.Taste. If no good try different temps.
> 
> Regarding tiny bubbles on crema, defo degassing. Try making your flat white or latte/cap, if crema pitts quickly around the foam...too gassy.


I have now tamped harder at the lower dose of 16g and I am getting a better result. Still, the taste is still rather bland for my liking.

Maybe I'll play around with my harder tamp now at higher dosages. My best result so far has been around the 18g mark at around 35secs. This dose puzzles me because typical users of the vivaldi maintain that 14, 15 and 16g's produce the best results. I guess I may have a tricky bean.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

It may simply be that the blend itself doesn't lend itself to a stunning extraction, a lot of cafe and house blends seem to be more aimed at producing what we would find a perfectly pleasant cup of coffee, but nothing outstanding, but to the average consumer would taste excellent in comparison to the chains.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

superdudeo said:


> I have now tamped harder at the lower dose of 16g and I am getting a better result. Still, the taste is still rather bland for my liking.
> 
> Maybe I'll play around with my harder tamp now at higher dosages. My best result so far has been around the 18g mark at around 35secs. This dose puzzles me because typical users of the vivaldi maintain that 14, 15 and 16g's produce the best results. I guess I may have a tricky bean.


Not at all familiar with the Vivaldi, but the cure for blandness is to updose. Actually, you've already discovered that, since you like 18g better than 14-16g. Next you need to try 19 or 20g -- whatever you can fit in the baskets you have on hand. You may need to grind a little coarser or preinfuse longer (if the machine allows that) at the higher doses.

You will probably find you like the results from different beans at different doses. "One dose size may not fit all."

Along the lines of what Charlie said about tamping, IMHO tamping force is mostly irrelevant. If your distribution in the portafilter is good, tamp force makes very little difference. I guess that's controversial, but it's definitely my experience.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

So the latest in my saga of the bland espresso is that I have some Rave Signature blend. I cannot nail this at all. I have tried 14 to 18g doses. The higher the dose the better but the espresso is lacking depth and complexity. I've tried messing around with temperatures as this seems like the only variable left. Has anyone got any tips to nail this blend down?

Many thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I prefer the signature blend in milk as opposed to straight espresso sorry not much help.

Where is the taste lacking mouthfeel? Unsure what expectations you have of it if it lacks complexity ?

how does it taste now, what do you want it to taste like . See if it's obtainable with that blend and equipment .


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Sorry when I say espresso I mean in a flat white. I can't really describe it apart from a lack of flavour. Not bitter, not sour just no depth of flavour.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

superdudeo said:


> Sorry when I say espresso I mean in a flat white. I can't really describe it apart from a lack of flavour. Not bitter, not sour just no depth of flavour.


Ok so how much milk roughly in ounces are you putting in your double shot

with your 18g dose how much is extracting ( weight ) and in what time

is the shot blonding early?

It may be you prefer something along a darker roast , say Italian job from rave.

This may give you the depth? Your describing .

It's hard to tell from your descriptions what coffee you like or want it to taste like

can you describe it tell us a coffee you have liked from a cafe etc ?


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi, thanks for your reply.

I think I am putting around 2 ounces of milk in. Around 1 ounce of espresso in 30 secs. Doesn't seem to be blonding early. I have experimented with a longer pour for say 1 ounce of espresso in 35 to 40 secs and still no joy.

I really don't think it's down to my taste. There is something wrong with my technique because it just isn't tasting right. It has body but lacks flavour and depth.

For me, it should taste nutty, smooth, rich and have depth. None of these are present really. Really hard to explain. Maybe I should try a more ristretto ratio?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Weight in a dose and weigh it out

Aim for say 16g dose and 24-25 g out as opposed to volume in ounces

See how that tastes

If that doesn't work try ristretto so 16 g in 16 -18g out ,

Oh yeah what's the roast date on the beans too please


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Roast date of the 24th Feb. Opened bag on the 12th March. Ordered through Amazon.

I will aim for a Ristretto in the morning to see how that compares. Thanks for your help.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It's hard to tell waht range your in by looking at dose versus volume

hence weighing if you can

1.6 x dose would be in normal range

1x dose ristretto range

let us know how you get on....


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## Jon V (Feb 24, 2014)

I am having a similar issue with the same machine. The espresso tastes ok but with milk (double espresso in a 160ml cup), the drink is quite bland - a pleasant milky drink but without much depth of flavour.

I've tasted the same beans brewed elsewhere and something is different.

I am using this ratio at present (recommended by the roaster of the bean for this machine): 18.5g > 32g in 27 seconds. I am using a thinner dispersion block (brass disc that goes above the shower screens) to give the headroom to allow this.

I am having issues with distribution and the pour which I need to work on.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi John

perhaps a clip of an extraction , on a new thread so we can diagnose how to help would be the best way to go forward .

the beans brewed elsewhere , was it at a cafe with a commercial grinder being used ?


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## Jon V (Feb 24, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi John
> 
> perhaps a clip of an extraction , on a new thread so we can diagnose how to help would be the best way to go forward .
> 
> the beans brewed elsewhere , was it at a cafe with a commercial grinder being used ?


Hi,

I will try and provide a vid shortly. I'm trying two different beans.

One is a darker all Brazillian blend I've tasted from a mahlkonig k30 + commercial machine.

The other is Clifton's EQ blend from the same machine, ground with an ek43.

I'm using a Vario (home, ceramic burrs).

I've tried down-dosing to 17.5g (thought it might help channeling), same extraction time and weight out (finer grind). Getting sourness now.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi guys,

I tried Mrboots suggestion this morning. I used 17g dose with output of 28g in around 30 secs. It was definitely improved.

I'm out of town now but I will experiment more tomorrow and tighten the grind a little more to see the result. The visible espresso looked better as well.

Question: It is now taking 10 secs before the first drops come through, it this usual? I'm pretty sure I don't have pre infusion on my machine although it is available.

Most advice I've seen for the Vivaldi of low dosage, light tamp seems to be the complete opposite for me in practice.

Thanks Chris


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

10 seconds before first drips is not that unusual.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi.

I am still having issues with getting a decent cup from my Mini Vivaldi II. I am using beans from Extract Coffee and Wogan Coffee, (both beans of which are used locally and produce excellent coffee).

So with beans eliminated from the equation, it has to be my technique. To quote from JonV above,

"I am having a similar issue with the same machine. The espresso tastes ok but with milk (double espresso in a 160ml cup), the drink is quite bland - a pleasant milky drink but without much depth of flavour"

My preferred drink is a flat white, I am texturing the milk fine and have been experimenting with ratios but still haven't cracked it. Thing is, 20g > 28g in 50/60 secs tastes better than 20g > 28g in 28 secs. This is contrary to what I know about espresso.

My problem is that it tastes bland, not bitter, not sour just bland. I have been resting beans properly also.

any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Chris


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Just a guess could it be the brew temp? Have you checked it?


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Hi. I have experimented with the temp yes. From mid 80's to high 90's.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

How does the Wogan or extract coffee taste when you have it out and about locally. Also

What milk are you using?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Also what does 20 into 38/taste like?

What would not be bland ?

Is it lacking in sweetness caramel chocolate notes?

Do you feel it is lacking in " strength " in milk

What doses the espresso taste like on its own?


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Without reading through the whole thread have you checked the sharpness of your burrs?

They should catch the skin slightly when you rub your fingers over them (against the grain as it were).

You may also find there are dents in the edges in which case you'll need to replace them.

Getting a bottomless pf will tell LOADS about your distribution which is most commonly at fault.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Milanski said:


> Without reading through the whole thread have you checked the sharpness of your burrs?
> 
> They should catch the skin slightly when you rub your fingers over them (against the grain as it were).
> 
> ...


I have just checked the burrs and they seem sharp, they scratch my finger nail when run over them.


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Also what does 20 into 38/taste like?
> 
> What would not be bland ?
> 
> ...


Hi, I'm using 4% supermarket milk, I prefer this over 2%. The least bland would be 20 > 20/25 in around 50 secs. It's still not great though.

Wogan and Extract taste rich, nutty and much more flavour whereas mine lacks complexity, kind of instant coffee taste. I will try a straight espresso tomorrow, I don't usually drink it straight.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

How did the straight espresso turn out??


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## superdudeo (Sep 12, 2013)

I've run out of beans! Just made an order, it's going to be difficult to describe a straight as it's not my drink of choice. I will get back here once I have though!

Thanks


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Sorry for the thread revival, but how did you get on with this issue in the end?

I am suffering a similar fate with my new grinder (Zenith 65e). I am getting the shots out 'on spec' (18g in for 28g out in 25-30 seconds) but they just don't taste of much. Neither sour nor bitter, but not much else. The beans in my case are Monmouth Espresso. 2 weeks old.

Thought I would ask you if you ever managed to solve the issue before I started my own similar thread.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

aaroncornish said:


> Sorry for the thread revival, but how did you get on with this issue in the end?
> 
> I am suffering a similar fate with my new grinder (Zenith 65e). I am getting the shots out 'on spec' (18g in for 28g out in 25-30 seconds) but they just don't taste of much. Neither sour nor bitter, but not much else. The beans in my case are Monmouth Espresso. 2 weeks old.
> 
> Thought I would ask you if you ever managed to solve the issue before I started my own similar thread.


Tasting notes , I've not had Monmouth

Have you tired smaller or larger brew ratios

18g >36g how does this taste

18> 22g how does this taste

What temp and machine are you brewing it on ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Grind finer, don't fret if you exceed 30s by a little.


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Thanks chaps, I will give that a try.

Really struggling with dialling at the moment, lots of variables, and I suspect I am just going round in circles.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Are you running it with beans in the hooper

Are you purging out say 3 g or So after each adjustment to clear ant retention ?


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Tasting notes , I've not had Monmouth
> 
> Have you tired smaller or larger brew ratios
> 
> ...


Thanks MrBoots! I will give those ratios a try and see what happens.

I am brewing on a Classic, so not sure on temp. I am temp surfing. I do have a PID to fit, but to be honest, I am loathed to do it at the moment as it will be just another variable for me to worry about.

I am using a 18g VST basket.

When you say 18g > 36g, I am assuming that is still within the target 25-30 seconds?


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Are you running it with beans in the hooper
> 
> Are you purging out say 3 g or So after each adjustment to clear ant retention ?


Yeah hopper is half full, although not for long, running out of Monmouth beans.

I have the second doser button set to 3 seconds to clear out the chute each time


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Roasters are often stuck in a bit of a time warp regarding brew ratios, so take recommendations with a pinch of salt. As I've said before, I rarely run anything above a 50% brew ratio, whereas roasters often recommend something in the region of 60% and sometimes higher.

JP


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