# V60 - How am I getting more bitterness from a coarser grind?



## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

I've been playing with a Comandante C40 Mk3 hand-grinder this week, to compare with a Feldfarb for <gs id="fdf31a67-6318-4345-bed5-f797460228d9" ginger_software_uiphraseguid="d305f883-766d-44a5-921a-10fffb90ab05" class="GINGER_SOFTWARE_mark">pourover</gs>.

I know that a 1:16.6 ratio is the typical, but I've tended to get better results with shorter drinks with the V60. Some flaw in my technique or <gs id="0d1c1348-673f-4d99-b209-78a1d45aab31" ginger_software_uiphraseguid="b2813938-ffca-458c-8a1a-1fd2a738b724" class="GINGER_SOFTWARE_mark">other</gs>, I guess







But <gs id="8b12f578-f766-464f-b32c-cf42d04839d2" ginger_software_uiphraseguid="b2813938-ffca-458c-8a1a-1fd2a738b724" class="GINGER_SOFTWARE_mark">Hario</gs> do recommend 1:12 on the V60 box, I think, so I started there.

But I'm getting what seems to me a weird result. With the Comandante on 28 clicks open on the grind adjustment (fairly coarse for V60, I think, roughly equivalent to around 2 rotations or 2+2 on a Feldgrind), using 12g of coffee for 144 grams of water and 35g pulse pours after a 45 second pre-wet/stir/bloom, I got an absolutely delicious cup in 3mins04. Soft, fruity, sweet, rounded... <gs id="cbe9e70e-a586-4bd5-bc20-619007240276" ginger_software_uiphraseguid="3716df61-ec06-4189-928a-bd0ea1d2b419" class="GINGER_SOFTWARE_mark">my</gs> holy grail!

I then tried a coarser grind (30 clicks open on the Comandante, I'd say similar to <gs id="83a17a4d-ac54-453f-a86d-83ff6a94bb33" ginger_software_uiphraseguid="e28906e3-ff68-47d1-baff-dbe999a611f5" class="GINGER_SOFTWARE_mark">around</gs> 2+4 on a Feldgrind), with same <gs id="fec15cf2-7caa-42b1-9e77-b5b2e5dda558" ginger_software_uiphraseguid="e28906e3-ff68-47d1-baff-dbe999a611f5" class="GINGER_SOFTWARE_mark">pouring</gs> routine and the top of the bed was drained in 3mins dead. 4 seconds quicker. But the <gs id="6f3a328c-e7a8-4730-9077-d3f4b740fd36" ginger_software_uiphraseguid="09c5650d-5380-4abf-b4e9-84e1a851ffb3" class="GINGER_SOFTWARE_mark">cup</gs> was decidedly bitter.

Back to 28 clicks on the Comandante and the next cup improved again. I tried to keep all other factors equal. I tip freshly-boiled water into a goose-necked pouring kettle and then start the pour immediately and, after the bloom, <gs id="561e30bf-b474-4c5e-b14f-78ea1b25c6c8" ginger_software_uiphraseguid="eabaadc5-73b5-4bb4-896f-e44842f40c4f" class="GINGER_SOFTWARE_mark">I</gs> pulse poured in concentric circles from a low height for all the cups.

So I have two questions:

1. I thought that bitterness was due to over-extraction and so, going coarser (up two clicks on the Comandante) and the overall time being 4 seconds shorter should have reduced, rather than increased any bitterness. Or not?

2. If it is over-extraction I'm getting, how come I'm getting to over-extraction with only 144g of water for 12g of coffee in 3 minutes? Why am I so far off the 1:16.6 typical ratio? I don't think my grind is too fine; the settings I use tend to be more coarse than those other people say they use for V60 using these grinders.

Any ideas?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ratios aren't typical/standard/official etc, they are mechanical & relate to how strong the resulting cup will be given known amounts of coffee & water, at a certain level of extraction. 1:16.6 is only 'typical' if aiming ~1.20-1.45%TDS at 18-22% extraction.

At 1:12 your coffee will be very strong at a 18-22% extraction, or maybe the same strength as a 1:16.6 brew at a low extraction.

+/- 4 seconds brew time isn't really enough to indicate anything.

If you go too coarse you can get bitter flavours, presumably because the outer layers of the large particles are more accessible to the brew water & can be over-extracted contributing bitter flavours, even though the cup as whole can still be nominal.


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Interesting, thanks. So if my grind has gone coarse enough to introduce more bitter flavours, that would be the case with other ratios? I'm just thinking, if it takes me 3 minutes to pour 144g, a 199g pour might end up being really long, unless i go fairly coarse.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tdfg7583 said:


> Interesting, thanks. So if my grind has gone coarse enough to introduce more bitter flavours, that would be the case with other ratios? I'm just thinking, if it takes me 3 minutes to pour 144g, a 199g pour might end up being really long, unless i go fairly coarse.


OK, I might be misunderstanding here ("brew time" vs "pour time"), but you are blooming 45sec, then one pour of brew water follows that & takes 3min? Surely you must leave some time for drips out of the brewer to slow/stop?

That's a lot of time for churning up the slurry. Even if your extraction % is good, you can still introduce bitter flavours by over agitating.

For 12g:200g your total brew time might be around 2:15-2:20 plus bloom.

If I wanted to keep the water level low & stretch out total pouring time, I'd use small pulses, evenly weighted & spaced, this helps keep things uniform & repeatable. I'd use one single pour if I wanted to get all the water in as quickly as possible (not my preferred way to brew with V60, but can be done).

Maybe try bloom 25g, then 7 pours of 25g every 15sec....if that ends too fast try 20g bloom & 9 pours of 20g, then tighten up grind if you need to slow it further.


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Nope, sorry, I meant that my total time was about three minutes (that was including the bloom and then pouring the rest of the water in three pulses).

I'll try those timings tomorrow, thanks.

Would you say that the that the time taken should be fairly similar, regardless of the ratio, and that it's grind size and pouring technique that experimentation? I just feel like it need one fixed target to aim for, haha. If time, ratio, grind and number of pulses are all up for grabs, then i feel a little lost at sea with it all.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tdfg7583 said:


> Nope, sorry, I meant that my total time was about three minutes (that was including the bloom and then pouring the rest of the water in three pulses).
> 
> I'll try those timings tomorrow, thanks.
> 
> Would you say that the that the time taken should be fairly similar, regardless of the ratio, and that it's grind size and pouring technique that experimentation? I just feel like it need one fixed target to aim for, haha. If time, ratio, grind and number of pulses are all up for grabs, then i feel a little lost at sea with it all.


As far as I can tell, the flow rate through the bed is what drives extraction, I don't brew drip at ratios far from 60g/L so can't really comment on ratios well outside that. But for 12:200g my brews average around 1.25g/second. So say you lose 25g of your brew water to the bed, you get about 175g in the cup. 175g*1.25g/sec = 219 seconds of flow, after bloom. That is what I would aim for. Reduce the variables by sticking to a dose & ratio, then change either pour regime or grind...only change both if you get a really difficult/unusual coffee.

It's not all 'up for grabs', you are facilitating a fairly predictable process, the more consistent you are the more consistent your results will be - within the bounds of normal & good cups...if anyone knows how to get stunning cups every time, I'm all ears  So change one thing at a time & make a few brews at a given method to get feel what the normal variation (time & flavour-wise) is, before upsetting things again.

The lowest common denominator for 1 mug brews at 60g/l is 25g per 15sec. If you're brewing at 12:200g and brew are under, try 15:250, or 16.5:275g...the bigger the brew you make at the same grind & ratio, the more you extract. Likewise, dropping to 9:150g will lower extraction.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

For what it's worth, Comandante's recommendation is 20 - 25 clicks for preparation with a V60 filter.


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Thanks, both. More experiments tomorrow then


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

And that's another new and interesting perspective for me, Mark, thinking of things in terms of flow rates. Lots for me to ponder!


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Feel free to use this spreadsheet to calculate flow rate:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19wh3-dVP5PCvg7DaEPp4iWynaPSJ3yGOmEylpKTmUos/edit#gid=0

(but make a copy first before modifying, if possible..)


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Excellent, thanks for that!!!

Final question for now, before I go away and try to put this all into practice...

The few times that I got a lovely fruity sweetness in the cup have been outnumbered by the times that I've achieved some sweetness but it's a slightly unpleasant caramel (or maybe fake-chocolate syrup?) kind of sweetness. At first, I thought it was the particular beans, but it's happens across a lot of different types of coffee (albeit, mainly roasted by Union, all light roast, single-origin). When I've managed the odd nice cup, this slightly sickly caramel taste has been less prominent. Any ideas whether that sort of flavour might be because I'm outside of the ideal extraction zone, or is it a characteristic of the beans/roast, do you think?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Maybe you're borderline high side of extraction going by the "sickly" comment. If it's happening with a lot of beans then unlikely to be the beans.

Union do some very light roasts, but I have found even when marked as "light" on the bag, they're about as dark as I can tolerate as drip.

Try a long French press steep & see what you get.


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Will do!

So who do you find does a reliably light roast for V60, as an alternative to Union. Most of the other UK roasters I've tried so far vhave been for Medium roast beans, for espresso.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tdfg7583 said:


> Will do!
> 
> So who do you find does a reliably light roast for V60, as an alternative to Union. Most of the other UK roasters I've tried so far vhave been for Medium roast beans, for espresso.


I'm not knocking Union, I have loved some of their beans, but "light" covers quite a range for them, dovetailing with medium dark for others.

Has Bean's majority of beans are good for V60, Workshop, James Gourmet, Squaremile, Crankhouse ...off the top of my head.


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Excellent. I have enjoyed a couple of light roasts from Has Bean, but the others will be new for me to try. Thanks for the recommendations!


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