# Sage Barista Express Newbie



## Rickster1978 (Jan 12, 2019)

Morning all.

I'm currently getting to grips with the Sage BE after it replaced my old Saeco Intuita.

Im still struggling to get a good tasting shot. I generally drink milky drinks so it's a little bit more forgiving but a bit of advice would be great. I have bought scales and trying to get things right based on what I have read on this very forum.

hopefully the info below will assist in someone being able to point me in the right direction.

Beans: Pact Fruit and Nut Espresso roasted on 4/1/19

Single wall double shot basket

grinder setting to 7

weighing 18g of beans in

weighing 52g of espresso out

struggling with time as I'm not sure if I should be starting the timer at the click of the button or the first flow of espresso.

Im struggling to know the difference between bitter and sour when tasting but it definitely doesn't taste right.

pre heating the machine and warming everything with a single shot of water through the system.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Morning Rickster

Basics (not related to your specific machine):

timing is started from when you turn the pump on to start your espresso. Timings will tell you / us a fair bit about what going on.

52g out may be a little long (equally may not) try grinding finer and reduce output until you like the taste better (am referring to the espresso neat not covered in milk, if it tastes alright at this stage milk will not mask it)

All machines, even those that purport to ready to brew in 3 minutes or less benefit from a slightly longer warm up. How much longer? will leave the BE owners to chip in on this, gain a consensus and try it, may only be 10 minutes, try it an see what you think. portafilter loosely attached to brewhead in this warm up as well otherwise will drop temperature leading to inconsistencies; brewhead hot but portafilter not introduces variables you don't need at this stage.

Could be the water you using, tap water doesn't always bring out the best flavour in coffee. If you want to rule this out buy something like Waitrose Essential or Evian (read through the forum for best current suggestions). Filters in the water tank are at best short lived at worst something that the manufacturer can keep charging you for.

The coffee: it could be after all the above you don't like the flavour of this particular bean. That's part of the benefit on here as you will find lots of beans discussed that you would not ordinarily come across. If you really don't like the beans you currently got after all the above have a look at some of the quality roaster that advertise (helping to support this forum) read the tasting notes, if you like chocolate / nuts may not like something described as tart acidity or citrus.

Hope of help and above assumes you using at least the supplied tamper









John


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

johnealey said:


> Morning Rickster
> 
> Basics (not related to your specific machine):
> 
> ...


Please avoid Evian. It's hard as nails & will ruin the machine. Essential Waitrose Lockhills is the best current single bottle water at the moment but Tesco Ashbeck & Volvic (though these 2 are a little too soft!) are the most regularly suggested waters.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Try preheating the portafilter by fitting an empty single dual wall filter basket and running a shot through it. If you are making several drinks on the trot there is only need to do that before the 1st one. It can make a remarkable difference to taste. Other way hot water but it will need a fair amount of it.

Check your dose with the razor tool.

You may be mislead by the manual regarding the pressure gauge. No harm in grinding finer and obtaining higher pressures. Best to stop within the blue espresso range shown on it. Things get more complicated past that. The reading it gets to depends on taste not some rigid rule. I generally found that the gauge must show pressure during the first 10 secs of infusion. Working to the manual can prevent that and result in poor coffee.

More musings here

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?47618-Can-t-dial-in-grind-s-with-Barista-Express&p=646549#post646549

John

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## Rickster1978 (Jan 12, 2019)

Thanks everyone









just one question I've been keen to ask when I've been reading comments. On a number of threads I've seen mention of reducing the output. At the moment I'm just hitting the double shot button and letting the machine control the amount of output. Is this correct or should I be doing it manually (if it's possible).

Im assuming that changing the grind will change the output as well. Is this what people are referring to when they talk about lowering the output?


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## Rickster1978 (Jan 12, 2019)

I found a link to a really useful video on one of the other newbie threads.

I am getting closer









the last shot I pulled tasted much better but there is still too much output.

I ground 18g into the double basket

timed at 26 seconds

59 grams out

grinder set at 5


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## Les996 (Jan 8, 2019)

Hi Rickster,

I am also new to the BE also, steep learning curve but I think I am figuring it out









Using Rave Fudge - 07-01-19

1st shot:

Grind 8

Warmed PF

18g in (firm tamp)

20s - just under 12 o'clock on gauge

46g out

2nd shot:

Grind 8

Warmed PF

19g in (firm tamp)

24s - just past 12 o'clock on gauge

55g out

This one tasted nicer...

Might try slightly finer grind and see how that goes.


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## Rickster1978 (Jan 12, 2019)

How have you been getting on Les? Any more joy?


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Rickster1978 said:


> How have you been getting on Les? Any more joy?


How are you getting on?

You been playing with your brew ratio... Do you know how to do a manual shot on the Barista Express? For anyone who doesn't....

press & hold down the double shot button for as long as you like (this will be the pre-infusion phase) & then release, releasing will engage full pump pressure. Run the shot for as lon as you like & then hit the shot button again to Finnish.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

HowardSmith said:


> How are you getting on?
> 
> You been playing with your brew ratio... Do you know how to do a manual shot on the Barista Express? For anyone who doesn't....
> 
> press & hold down the double shot button for as long as you like (this will be the pre-infusion phase) & then release, releasing will engage full pump pressure. Run the shot for as lon as you like & then hit the shot button again to Finnish.


I didn't find any need to use my BE manually. Once a bean us tuned it hold the output pretty well. It's a volumetric machine with a bit of a twist - it measures the total flow before water goes through the over pressure valve*. This means that actual shot times will vary a bit from shot to shot especially if something changes in preparation. The twist means that this degrades once pressure goes over the espresso range on the gauge. It is still possible to use the machine at these pressures but there are limits. Too high and too much of the flow that is being measured is going out of the OVP.







It's possible to measure how much is going out of that by weighing the amount that goes into the drip tray but the amount the 3 way valve puts in also has to be measured and subtracted from that. That amount is consistent.

Ratios crop up a lot. Best to start with the ones in the BE manual. They state that the dual wall double holds 18g - that's how I read it anyway. So assume the single wall is the same. They also state that a double is 60ml, people measure that as 60g giving a ratio of 3.3. This is totally different to the ratio of 2 that often seems to be mentioned. If people want to get down to that level they are unlikely to achieve it via the pressure gauge readings Sage suggest - it's very likely to have to go higher. As it goes higher the drink will get stronger and stronger. There is a way of reducing that within limits - the double is likely to be ok with 16g in it. At some point as the dose goes down the puck will get wetter and wetter so it's pretty obvious when to stop. It may also be possible to add more grinds. As that is done the puck will eventually tend to stick to the shower screen when the portafilter is removed - add a touch more and that stops. Add even more and the drinks tends to get weaker and eventually it'll be hard to get the portafilter on. I used the single a lot slightly overloaded - changes of around 0.2g a time from what the razor tool leaves and pressure to a level where the OPV was dumping a little water. I make rather large drinks and that was the best way to do it.

The other variable is time. I tend to stick to around 30sec. People who weigh out are prepared to vary that to get their Xg shot. The BE is trying to do that for users. There isn't really any need to stick to 30secs. 2 terms, lungo and ristretoo. Those can be achieved by either time or grind. Other sources might mention 25sec and 25g or 50g out.

Personally I'm not keen on buying a an auto machine and not using it in the mode it's intended to be used and I have eventually managed to get the taste particular beans should have but sticking to some rigid rule is unlikely to achieve that. The BE is no different to others in that respect but I feel it likes higher ratio's than more conventional machines. The biggest problem as I see it is lack of different basket sizes - something Breville are silly not to correct. There are a couple of baskets about that will fit but only after modification. There DB has a basket problem as well really - commercially sized baskets usually need to hold more than their stated capacity.

DTP - Probably the same.

*That's an assumption based on what seems to happen when pressures are too high. Not opened it up to look but a web diagram found some time ago showed the DB using this arrangement and as I brew on that the volume setting is useless and all over the place so I leave it set to time.

John

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## kazzycoffee (Jan 20, 2019)

Thanks for this will give it a try as at the moment I can't get the gauge at 12 o'clock it's way over no matter what I do. I need more beans.. used so many practising.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

kazzycoffee said:


> Thanks for this will give it a try as at the moment I can't get the gauge at 12 o'clock it's way over no matter what I do. I need more beans.. used so many practising.


Are you using the single basket by any chance?

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

kazzycoffee said:


> Thanks for this will give it a try as at the moment I can't get the gauge at 12 o'clock it's way over no matter what I do. I need more beans.. used so many practising.


Turn the grinder all the way down to 1. The finest grind. 18g in the double basket. See if this chokes the machine. If it does, back it off from there. My grinder was always between 2 & 4


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## Les996 (Jan 8, 2019)

HowardSmith said:


> How are you getting on?
> 
> You been playing with your brew ratio... Do you know how to do a manual shot on the Barista Express? For anyone who doesn't....
> 
> press & hold down the double shot button for as long as you like (this will be the pre-infusion phase) & then release, releasing will engage full pump pressure. Run the shot for as lon as you like & then hit the shot button again to Finnish.


OOps I missed these...

I settled on these settings for the BE and Fudge from Rave:

Grind 7

In 19g

Out 44g

Time 25.5s

Gauge sat at 12 o'clock (just past) after pre-inf and I could actually taste the fudge...I think lol

Managed to get it right halfway through a bag of 250g...have just started the same again on Suarez...

Still learning but all good fun


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Les996 said:


> OOps I missed these...
> 
> I settled on these settings for the BE and Fudge from Rave:
> 
> ...


LOL It could have taken more than 250g.







You might now find a feature of grinders - what happens when the beans are changed. Just have to stick with it if you do.

On my BE as the grinder was I would choke it if I set to 1. I suspect Sage are correct that initially at least people should start at 8. I used 6 to 8 mostly. 4 a few times and latter a different style of brewing for one beam in particular that needed it setting to 10.

Quick edit.

One thing that may well help when changing beans is not to clean the grinder out. Just vac off any bit on top of the burrs, run the grinder to get shut of any that remain in it then switch to the new bean and accept that there will be a bit of taste carry over. Or if you like waste some grinds. I'd be inclined to feel that 20g would get rid of it.







I prefer to taste to find out how long it lasts. Reason if new machine and an early bag of beans some of the initial messing about will be down to the grinder settling down. Clean it thoroughly and the same thing will happen again.

John

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## Les996 (Jan 8, 2019)

ajohn said:


> LOL It could have taken more than 250g.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this John,

I think I was lucky with the Fudge, the Saurez I'm now struggling with lol


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## Rickster1978 (Jan 12, 2019)

Thanks for all the comments guys. I'm still finding I'm drawing an espresso that I wouldn't be able to drink straight so I'm not getting it quite right. I'm enjoying the experiment though and going to stick with it. I'm not expecting miracles with the remains of my current bag as they were roasted at the start of January so they are getting towards the end of their life. I've only got one cup left and then I'm away with work until Friday so I'll get my Pact delivery for Saturday morning.

i still think my main problem is the struggle to know the difference between bitter and sour. I'm struggling to describe the difference which doesn't help.

Going to try this morning and see how I go.

M


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## Coffee44 (Jan 27, 2019)

A little off topic, but to Sage Barista owners - do you think this machine could be used commercially?

I own a tiny little shop & customers are repeatedly asking for coffee, however we have very little space and the plumbing situation means we can't get a plumbed in machine.

(It would be a max of 10 coffees a day)

Thank you in advance!


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Coffee44 said:


> A little off topic, but to Sage Barista owners - do you think this machine could be used commercially?
> 
> I own a tiny little shop & customers are repeatedly asking for coffee, however we have very little space and the plumbing situation means we can't get a plumbed in machine.
> 
> ...


probably best you start a new thread, but... you could use the BE (so long as it meets any legal requirements for equipment in a commercial environment which I have no clue about)... but I wouldn't advise it.

the machine shuts off after about 15 mins & you really want it on & hot all day if you're going to be using it over the day.

also if you are only making a few drinks a day one of the more automated sage machines may be better for you (not sure on your espresso experience or willingness to learn how to use a more involved machine)


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## Coffee44 (Jan 27, 2019)

Thank you for your reply!

I have a little espresso experience and willing to learn, just trying to balance between whats worth it for such a small volume.

I will start a thread









Thanks again!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Rickster1978 said:


> Thanks for all the comments guys. I'm still finding I'm drawing an espresso that I wouldn't be able to drink straight so I'm not getting it quite right. I'm enjoying the experiment though and going to stick with it. I'm not expecting miracles with the remains of my current bag as they were roasted at the start of January so they are getting towards the end of their life. I've only got one cup left and then I'm away with work until Friday so I'll get my Pact delivery for Saturday morning.
> 
> i still think my main problem is the struggle to know the difference between bitter and sour. I'm struggling to describe the difference which doesn't help.
> 
> ...


The main problem with using the machine comes in 2 parts. The web and the manual. On the web Ng in and 2Ng out in either 25 or 30secs can be found. Some bean suppliers might provide numbers usually very similar with maybe a time tolerance. Forget it. People need to find out for themselves. There is no way of knowing what type of machine was used or how well or otherwise it was used or what grinder. Bean tasting is done by dumping grinds into hot water anyway not via an espresso machine

The manual describes rather precise pressure gauge behaviour. Problem with that is that as ratios are changed the readings it gives with the same dose of grinds will as well. As the output is reduced the gauge will go higher and higher. They provide a 10g basket for 30g shots and an 18g basket for 60g shots. Must be mad but in practice that may be suitable for a bean. Actually I'd be inclined to think from beans I have used that ratios higher than 2 are usually needed just to get the taste they should have.

The manual and the web mention over and under extraction. It's irrelevant when coupled with specific numbers being used. The aim should be to get a drink that the maker enjoys. That may have the taste associated with a particular bean or a distorted form of it. Some people might use a refractometer and aim for some physical extraction level. I associate that with the strength of the taste. The only control on that is weight of beans, ratio and size of shot produced. Say this was X% and was too weak or too strong. Maybe taste wasn't as it should be.

Anyway. If some one wants to drink true espresso it would probably be a good idea to ask about beans to use and taste characteristics. For instance taking the shots I use in an americano. If some one took an eye dropper and placed one drop on their tongue to savour it they wouldn't stand a cat in hells chance of appreciating it's flavour and would probably still be able to taste it an hour later. If a milk based drinker used it they might say interesting but too weak. Rather than what I taste they might say chocolate.








Personally if people want the taste a bean should have the best way to go is americano style. All beans at some grinds weight and ratio will be suitable. So









John

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## mohass (Feb 26, 2019)

I just picked one of these up the other day after selling my gaggia.

Newbie too.

Using fresh Rave signature beans

17 grams in to double unpressurised basket

Grind setting on 7

Puck pre heated

Press the double shot button

The gauge goes high at around 2om position so past the "ideal espresso range"

Weighs 58ml out but only in 20 seconds

I cant seem to get the time past 20 seconds

Espresso doesn't taste right at all. Its masked in milky drinks though.

I haven't played with any settings on the programme mode.

Any ideas?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I can only think of 2 things that might cause that.

Tamping too light. Bound to cause problems at some point as it's mentioned but no numbers. Reckon on >=10kg, Personally I think it's best to strain a little when people are starting as it's more likely to be consistent and hopefully hard enough.

The other one is too small a dose. Doesn't sound like it should be but easiest way to check is the razor tool. On other machines people might say do a coin test. Say 5p or 1p not leaving an impression when the portafilter is fitted.

You can work with the gauge going that high but I only needed to do that with the single. It's a bit touchy up there as more and more water goes into the drip tray and the shot the machines buttons gave varies too much. A bit past the blue sector should be ok but I do mean a bit.

If the gauge happens to go to where Sage suggest it's still a good idea to try higher and lower. Your ratios unusually are in the region sage suggest,

Grinder setting doesn't sound unreasonable but numbers can't be compared machine to machine. I found Sages suggested start at 8 and added only changing by one step at a time until the taste was as wanted. I'd already used a burr grinder and new that big changes without the grinder running aren't a good idea especially when going finer.

John

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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

ajohn said:


> I can only think of 2 things that might cause that.
> 
> Tamping too light. Bound to cause problems at some point as it's mentioned but no numbers. Reckon on >=10kg, Personally I think it's best to strain a little when people are starting as it's more likely to be consistent and hopefully hard enough.
> 
> ...


I don't think any two machines are the same to be honest. I recently bought two of these and currently have one sat near me at my partner's house. When comparing it to the one I bought for my sister's birthday (end of Feb) I set it up for her. Weighing the grind and adjusting the double shot for a 1:2 ratio shot. Beans were the same on both. Both the grind setting on the side and the grind amount (timer?) were different. The only other difference was the one I bought for her clumped a little bit more.

I was faffing around trying to make a few flat whites the other day, and found my gf had given the machine a wipe so knocking the grind amount out of the window.. Used the Niche instead that's sat next to it







Anyway. a guestimate twist and it's all back to normal now. I get the coffee level when tapping the pf and the tamp shoulders sit level with the top with 18g so should be about right.

I'm guessing the little filter things that come with it are next to useless if everyone still feels the need to use bottles water? I'm just chucking tap water in at the min.. But will fill a large bottle with water from my machine's filter at home when I get chance


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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

This might be a stupid question to ask. But when I want to make 1 cup of coffee, is it normal to use the aingle wall filter with 8g of coffee and press the double cup button? Is this actually a double shot?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Aamz23 said:


> This might be a stupid question to ask. But when I want to make 1 cup of coffee, is it normal to use the aingle wall filter with 8g of coffee and press the double cup button? Is this actually a double shot?


Unless they have changed it the buttons are aimed to producing the shot sizes they mention in the manual. Read ml as grams. It measures the volume of coffee produced. None of these are fantastically accurate so may need tuning according to grind and etc but are pretty repeatable once set. So either button can be programmed for the required shot size

The gauge comments in the manual are not helpful - the blue espresso range on the dial is but pressure can be allowed to go higher than that. At some point more and more water gets dumped into the drip tray though. What I found for decent coffee is that the gauge must show some pressure during infusion and when that happens the gauge will go higher than Sage suggest.

There is another way of tuning a shot - the amount of coffee in the basket. It's best to start with the razor tool. Adding more will decrease the output. At some point the puck will start sticking to the shower screen, another usually rather small fraction of a gram will stop that. Increase the amount in slowly a step at a time - just like grinder adjustment 1 step at a time. It doesn't retain much of a previous grind but that may be noticeable if the single is being used - wasting a couple of grams will get rid of it.

No idea where 20secs came from. Aim for 30 or more from a button press. Ratio getting up to more like 3 or even higher gave me better drinks. It depends on the beans. It's a stepped grinder so quantity of coffee and shot times should be included in tuning. In respect to shot time this is effectively what people who weigh out as the shot is pouring do. However as it's a volumetric machine shot times will vary. I found that the buttons maintained shot to better than 5ml







a lot better actually.

30sec of more - that's what suited me. Others might find 25 better. It all depends on taste and the beans.

John

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## Aamz23 (Aug 20, 2018)

Thanks


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