# First Machine for £350 really stuck



## adamr100 (Apr 30, 2012)

Hi.

For my birthday my mums wants to get me a coffee machine as I worked in a coffee shop for 5 years before I came to uni, she knows how much I love coffee so thought it'd be a good idea. I'm all for it, the problem is she has left me with deciding which one.

I have spent days scouring forums and reading reviews and trying as hard as possible to not create another "New Machine" thread. However after all my hunting I am still unsure as to what to go for. My budget is circa £350.00.

I have narrowed it down to the top 3 I could find but I am open to suggestions:

Rancilio Silvia - Is really out of my budget but reviews seem good is it worth more over the others?

Gaggia Classic

La Pavonni Puccini

I wondered what peoples thoughts were. I would like to think I am experienced and can work a machine well having had barrister training and worked in a coffee shop for 5 years. I have a manual mill grinder that my shop gave me when I left. I look forward to your thoughts, opinions and suggestions.

Thanks

Adam


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

Not sure about the La Pavonni I'm afraid, but out of the other two I would choose the Rancilio based on reading/research I've done.


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

Welcome to the forum, if you are looking for a Classic try the for sale section on this very forum! there is a used one for sale with all sorts of gear for £140

Looks like a bargain! bet its in good nick too.

PS not sure barrister training will help much.. unless you want to sue someone (Barista)

Good luck with your search for a machine let us know how you get on


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## wastedhours (Jan 2, 2012)

I've not used any of them, but would assume (based upon things I've read on here) that the advise of the many would be a Classic, along with assorted accessories such as a decent tamper, VST basket, naked portafilter and potentially a PID...


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## AlIam (Aug 30, 2011)

I'd get a classic and an electric grinder.


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## adamr100 (Apr 30, 2012)

Brilliant, thanks for your swift advice, I did mean Barista, I will blame that on autocorrect. So the Classic is a good machine, I've read mixed opinions. The general consensus is the Silvia is overpriced?


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

No I don't think the Silvia is overpriced, it's what I have and I am very pleased with it, but I think you will find it maybe outside your £350 budget I think they are in the £425 price range, the Classic is a good machine check out the threads on here, packed with good advice from users, but do remember all the other bits and bobs you will need, Tamper, milk jugs etc, thats why I mentioned the one for sale on here it comes with most of the "essentials" and even a Silvia steam wand, worth a look at the picture at least to see the sort of things you may require and need to budget for


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## espresso_a_day (Aug 18, 2010)

I was facing a choice between the Silvia and the Gaggia Classic as my first espresso machine almost 2 years ago. I went with the Gaggia, which I still own. (and an Iberital MC2 grinder).

I don't know the Silvia so cannot compare, but my thoughts:

(1) Do you have a grinder yet? You absolutely need one, so if you don't have one get the Classic and a good entry-level grinder.

(2) I didn't have a strict budged and I like the hobby with playing with the Classic, so I got a Rancilio steam wand for the Gaggia immediately, which is great but costs a bit of money to get the steaming up to scratch on the Gaggia.

(3) PID. I got a PID from Auber and think it is a great addition, both in terms of toy value and I also think (non-blind, non-systematic tests) that I can actually taste difference between 2-3 degrees higher or lower and it has a noticeable influence on some beans. More importantly, I have often heard that the Silvia has a pretty wide temperature range as well, so you'll either temperature surf or PID the Silvia. Me, for the same money I would go Gaggia + PID again. (For the Gaggia, the PID also helps with steaming as you can see the temperature of the boiler as it gets up to steam and you can start steaming at about 130, forcing the boiler to keep heating so you do not run out of steam. You can do this without the PID, by learning how long the boiler takes until it switches off at the top of the steam temp cycle and timing accordingly, but with the PID it's easier and fun. This point is moot I hear for the Silvia which has a bigger boiler with more steam power).

(4) Drip tray. I have heard the drip tray on the Silvia is pretty shallow. The one on the Gaggia is pretty deep and it may seem silly but now often you have to empty a drip tray (i.e. usually carry a shallow wide container with coffee muck sloshing around in it to the sink without spilling) really does make a huge difference to comfort.

(5) External heating elements. While the Gaggia's aluminium boiler gets a lot of negative attention, its external heating elements are a great design allowing them to be better protected from accidental overheating (as I understand). Again, my understanding if you forget to refill the boiler with water after drawing steam on a single-boiler machine like the Silvia with heating element inside the boiler, the heating element is more prone to overheating and needing replacement.

(6) The water tank is accessible from the front and the top. If you have low countertops you can pull out the tank to the front to refill. (You need to remove the portafilter, the drip tray, and the tube coming down from the stolenoid valve, all of which are easy though).

I would choose the Gaggia again and would spend any extra money (again) on the PID and then on good beans (a HUGE factor in now your coffee tastes). But then again, if I had bought the Silvia, I might now be a Silvia fan.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

DO NOT over look the grinder. It's as important if not more important than the machine itself.

You'll probably need to budget about £130-£200 on that alone. I think the setup for sale in the for sale section will see you right with money left over.


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## adamr100 (Apr 30, 2012)

I have a Zassenhaus Stainless Steel manual grinder which should hopefully be okay for now. I'll suggest to her both then let her make up her mind. Thanks for the advice.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

This one?










Never seen one before but it looks alright


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I think the consensus here is that although the Siliva is a better machine than the Classic, it's not £200 better. Spend that £200 on a grinder or £100 or so putting a PID on the classic.

There are many Classics around on the second hand market and you can pick up one in very good condition for under £150.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I would NOT buy a Classic again due to the poor design choice of using aluminium boilers.

I've experienced corrosion ( in the form of aluminium hydroxide or aluminium oxide) on 2/2 gaggia machines.

Copper or brass boiler all the way!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> I would NOT buy a Classic again due to the poor design choice of using aluminium boilers.
> 
> I've experienced corrosion ( in the form of aluminium hydroxide or aluminium oxide) on 2/2 gaggia machines.
> 
> Copper or brass boiler all the way!


Just out of interest, what has made this obvious to you?

It's still a case of, is the classic a good machine for 4 years of use? For the price I'd say yes. If you want something to last a lifetime, maybe not. But then, you're going to have to pay more.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

chimpsinties said:


> Just out of interest, what has made this obvious to you?
> 
> It's still a case of, is the classic a good machine for 4 years of use? For the price I'd say yes. If you want something to last a lifetime, maybe not. But then, you're going to have to pay more.


I removed the boiler from my Classic at the weekend after seeing very small white particles in water through the brew head.

The boiler looked shocking, every part of it was corroded and the corrison is not easy to remove. You literally have to remove the metal its attached to.

Having spent many hours searching through websites relating to gaggia boiler corrison (do a google search), it seems this a wide spread problem and if you are unlucky enough to live in a very slightly acidic water area or use filtered water that is ever so slightly acidic then your boiler acts as a battery and produces aluminium oxide, slowing eating away at the aluminium. These boilers may seem to last a long time but I'd be interested to see how many Classic owners on here have corroded boilers and don't even know about it.

Brass or Copper is just a better choice for longevity.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Interesting!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

This is something I looked into too. The problem is not so much the presence of aluminium but rather that the boiler comprises both aluminium and brass (the base of the boilet) parts. These two dissimilar metals have a potential difference and so when both metals are in contact with a mildly acidic solution galvanic corrosion occurs to the anode (aluminium).

If you have soft water, adding some sodium bicarbonate to the water in your tank can help inhibit the corrosion.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

jimbow said:


> If you have soft water, adding some sodium bicarbonate to the water in your tank can help inhibit the corrosion.


Does this mean that having hard water is good for corrosion (or lack there of)? But bad for scale of course.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I believe you an fight corrosion with limescale!

I intend to use hard water, unfiltered, and allow a healthy layer of scale to accumulate in my boiler to protect me and it from further corrosion.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Unfortunately I don't think it is quite that simple (nothing ever is







). Take a look at Jim Schulman's Insanely Long Water FAQ.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Earlepap said:


> Does this mean that having hard water is good for corrosion (or lack there of)? But bad for scale of course.


I'd say that although this is a complex subject, your statement is an ok way to look at it. Soft water tends to have a low pH and higher acidity, and therefore corrodes/dissolves boiler metals more readily. Hard water tends towards high pH & greater total alkilinity, which makes it a less effective solvent of boiler metal but as it is the high calcium and magnesium content that makes it hard, then the downside is the formation of scale when the water is heated.

Finding a compromise that also tastes good as coffee is the key, and that's where the SCAA water guidelines come in.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Good way of looking at it. From what I read, whilst high alkilinity is indeed desirable with a high PH, water high in calcium, that will cause scale build-up, is not. This is because scale clogs the internals of the machine but also because once the water has deposited the scale, it's PH is much lower.

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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

But you can't argue its a poor design choice by Gaggia to use galvonic whatsits together in a high temperature and potentially slightly acidic environment.

Thats uber dumb?!?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

No idea tbh. I'm not sure that the corrosion going on is infact galvanic corrosion, as the boiler doesn't seem to present that sort of environment... with electrolytes etc... or does it? I thought the issue was simple corrosion of metal caused by water acidity... and in that regard once again I have no idea whether aluminium is more readily corroded than other metals. Several people seem to think so, but wouldnt the design be illegal on health and safety grounds if there was any evidence that it's dangerous? Dunno... anyone know?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

As a battery it is a good design but as a boiler...

To be honest there are many aspects of the Gaggia boiler design that are really clever, and I am guessing the brass base was intended to provide improved heat transference to the group head. Perhaps it is also following similar principles employed in the Rocket which apparently has a copper end cap on it's brass boiler to increase steam pressure.

I am no chemist but I think there may actually be multiple forms of corrosion going on inside the Gaggia boiler. Galvanic corrosion caused by the presence of two dissimilar metals in contact with a base and corrosion when using water with a low or high pH. Under normal circumstances, water should not corrode aluminium once the metal has undergone some initial corrosion and formed a protective film against further corrosion (passivation). This behaviour makes aluminium very resistant to corrosion. However, water with high or low pH can break down the film and corrosion can occur.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I read that descaling also damages this nice alu oxide layer, obviously as its highly acidic.

I know its a cheap machine and replacement boilers are cheap but I'm just worried that people buying used Classics are buying machines with corroded boilers.

How many people (other than gaggiamanualservice) have any idea what the boiler looks like before they sell their Classic?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Reading all this makes me very happy I almost made myself poor upgrading.


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## big dan (Apr 11, 2012)

As a fellow newbie here are my two cents:

I just bought a second hand gaggia classic with the rancilio steam wand upgrade and I am very happy with it. Much better than my previous machine and I can actually make microfoam with it! Also it is worth noting that I am in the middle of a move so I am staying with a friend and don't have a proper tamper or my other accessories so I am using preground coffee from my local roaster and I am still getting reasonable results even though I cannot adjust the grind or tamp properly.

If you really want a silvia (which I do!) then could you get cash for your birthday and buy a second hand one on eBay as I have seen these for around the £300 on there? I am in the same boat as my birthday is in July and my family have suggested they all chip in so I can buy myself a really nice machine! Except I couldn't wait that long so I got my classic for £130 off eBay and will either sell it or invest in a better grinder!

Just some thoughts for ya!


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I am a complet novice but have been using a Gaggia Baby Class for the last year and its served me very well, i have been using a bottomless filter with a 18g basket with it and had no probs and it produces a good coffee 9 times out of ten, i just takes a little effort. but if you can afford the Rancilio i would go for it as i seams to get a realy good write up, the one i am considering a case of upgraditest is the Francino Piccino as its available at £525 in a few places and its duel boiler!!


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Forgot to add i have been using a dulait grinder with the mod and it produces a good enough grind that i get a nice creama


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