# My Sage BE is faulty - Replace or Upgrade?



## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

Hello, it looks like I've joined the not so exclusive 'Faulty Sage Barista Express' club with water dripping from group & steam coming out of group instead of wand in my case.

Therefore I'm considering my options:

1) Replace with another Sage BE.

2) Upgrade to a Sage Dual Boiler.

3) Upgrade to a different manufacturers espresso machine.

4) Go back to hand brew ( V60, Aeropress etc).

I'm going to return it tomorrow, probably for a refund & go with option 4 above until I decide on what to do unless I decide tonight to stay with another Barista Express (better the devil you know).

I know that there have been threads along these lines before however I'd like people's ideas on my options and to try and keep it relatively simple, I'm only going to focus on the following in this thread:

a) New machines only please (though I might end up down the used route).

b) Only espresso machine discussion, grinder discussion will be a separate issue.

c) Budget of £1000 (ideally a lot less), though I'm the type of person that looks at the options and then decides if I'd be happy buying within my original budget or need to either increase it or not buy at all rather than stick to a budget and not be happy with the result.

d) No Sage Duo Temp Pro. I'm looking at either staying with a Sage BE or upgrading.

e) Quick start up. I like the Sage machines quick from power on to ready to pull an espresso. I don't want a long wait for the machine to heat up, mainly because it gets used just prior to leaving for work in the morning.

f) Water tank as plumbed in is not an option.

g) Ideally a large drip tray because the Sage BE's is annoyingly small, though this isn't a deal breaker.

h) A good steam wand (so probably a dual boiler), because I find the Sage BE's too low powered. I recently tried a Conti Monte Carlo, so have experienced a commercial machine and it makes steaming milk easier when you aren't lacking steam.

i) I don't want to be temp surfing, so possibly another reason for a dual boiler.

I'm sure that I'll add to that list of requirements above and also possibly change my mind on some of them as time goes by.

Also I'm aware that one of the first comments will be to go to Bella Barista, however that's about a 5hr round trip, so I'd want to narrow my choice down as much as possible before I even considered heading over there.

My initial thoughts are an Expobar Leva Dual Boiler, however that's over budget, is there anything slightly cheaper that's not a used machine?

Thanks in advance.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Why not a duo temp pro?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Back to your V60 save up a while, as you already made a mental note to upgrade. Expobar is on my list, along with the Nuova Musica


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

If you have the patience: hand brew and wait for the Decent Espresso machine to surface?


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

doolallysquiff said:


> If you have the patience: hand brew and wait for the Decent Espresso machine to surface?


The 'Decent' looks nice, however the base model is $1599 so I'd expect the UK price to be around £1599, so above my budget. Also as I'm in the UK I'd be concerned about warranty/repair with a HK & USA based company if/when it goes wrong.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you buy a standard E61 configured machine, then all parts are basically available off the shelf meaning it will run for years and years. The same cannot be said of any Sage product. As good as they are it seems a lottery with them, and once out of warranty that lottery will turn into a nightmare


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

joey24dirt said:


> Why not a duo temp pro?


I want to either keep the same machine or upgrade, feature wise the DTP is lacking, due to:

Lower wattage thermocoil.

No 3 way valve (dry puck feature).

No pressure gauge.

Can't control pre infusion.

No preset shot volume.

No backflush reminder (CleanMe).

Can't adjust water temperature.

I can see the advantage of the DTP with the need for a separate grinder, but as a new machine I believe that the BE is better value for money.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> If you buy a standard E61 configured machine, then all parts are basically available off the shelf meaning it will run for years and years. The same cannot be said of any Sage product. As good as they are it seems a lottery with them, and once out of warranty that lottery will turn into a nightmare


I agree with you on an E61 based machines.

However Sage machines come with a 2 year warranty and if bought today from Lakeland it's 3 years.

Also as already mentioned on another thread when a Sage repair engineer visited a forum member, the Sage machines use standard parts, so no issue.

The advantage of Sage is that they have a UK based office and can send out a repair engineer, what other consumer espresso maker can offer that at no additional charge?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sage do not use standard parts. If it breaks down especially out of warranty there is only one firm authorised to fix them. You think 3 years is long? Maybe for Sage but not in general. I do not care how good the product is when it works. It if you have convinced yourself.....


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

MikeBookham said:


> I want to either keep the same machine or upgrade, feature wise the DTP is lacking, due to:
> 
> Lower wattage thermocoil.
> 
> ...


Do the BE have those features? I thought they were just basically a DTP with built in grinder?


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

joey24dirt said:


> Do the BE have those features? I thought they were just basically a DTP with built in grinder?


Yes, the BE has these features over and above the DTP. As well as the obvious built in grinder.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

Specifically the DTP has a 1700W thermocoil whereas the BE is 1850W.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Sounds like you would do well with a dual boiler. If I was to ever upgrade from my DTP I think I would head that way, although at present with my limited knowledge most of the features would be a little beyond me at first.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

In that price range for dual boiler you're really only looking at the Sage DB. I can't think of any others. The Expobar is above your budget unless you want to go higher. So the question comes down to how set on a DB machine are you?

Someone already mentioned the NS Musica, but the NS Oscar II is also a cracking machine if you don't mind lack of water spout.


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## Steady (Jul 2, 2017)

I bought a DTP for the same reasons, damaged box from Lakeland. I intend to use it to learn more about coffee and then upgrade to something better later. Have Bella Barista still got the bargain machines for sale as these looked like an option slightly better than new or look for a nearly new on the forum? People look after their machines and you can see the history a lot of the time.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Sage DB sits on its own, and yes, I have owned some in my time. They are more or less unique at that price point for the features they have. But, as they are loaded with electronic features they are prone to reliability issues. If these occur in warranty, then you are quids in and there have also been documented cases where they have fixed them outside of warranty. One of the points I was making, was that a standard style machine will plod on and on and parts are generally available from a number of online sellers. Most of Sages sellers are retailers and not specialist coffee retailers. You cannot phone a well known supplier and ask for a new part x and there have been a few cases I know of where machines are replaced rather than supply a new boiler or whatever the fail may be.

I know we live in a throw away society. With a tv, I buy it with a 5 year warranty and when it breaks down outside of that period, without thinking I replace it, but technology moves on. Not so with coffee machines. You can get just as good a cuppa, all things being equal, from a 1950's Gaggia as you can from a much newer machine.

With Sage, you will be constantly looking over your shoulder and once out of warranty, when other machines will go on and on......


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@MikeBookham I've been looking at machines around your budget too. Some that have come up:

Rocket Appartmento - although a HX has good temp stability from what I'm told. E61 so you could just get a programmable plug to ensure it's on 30min before you need it.

Vibiemme Domobar dual boiler - DB machine for under £900 looks incredible value and has a good heritage.

Lelit PL62 Mara - also a HX but very compact forum member @igm45 has one and rates it

I have a DTP and I really like it but I don't think sage products seem to have the longevity of E61 type machines.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

MikeBookham said:


> Yes, the BE has these features over and above the DTP. As well as the obvious built in grinder.


Hi. Which grinder will you be pairing your machine with, have you got a budget for that?

Also, you said that a trip to BB is 5h round trip. I've done the trip 3 times with great pleasure, and for me it is a 4h round trip. If you are going to spend north of 1k, a day off work and a trip to Wellingborough seems worthwhile to me.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

lake_m said:


> In that price range for dual boiler you're really only looking at the Sage DB. I can't think of any others. The Expobar is above your budget unless you want to go higher. So the question comes down to how set on a DB machine are you?
> 
> Someone already mentioned the NS Musica, but the NS Oscar II is also a cracking machine if you don't mind lack of water spout.


Thanks, I've just read the Bella Barista summary for the 'Nuova Simonelli Oscar II' and that might be an option, especially as the lack of water spout is a non issue because I have an Insinkerator filtered hot & cold water tap. I'll need to check out some reviews the Oscar 2.

I think that I need to look into HX models more because there are very few new DB's in budget. My initial concern with HX's was the hassle of flushing to stabilise the group temperature, are some HX machines better than others in this respect?


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> ...I know we live in a throw away society. With a tv, I buy it with a 5 year warranty and when it breaks down outside of that period, without thinking I replace it, but technology moves on. Not so with coffee machines. You can get just as good a cuppa, all things being equal, from a 1950's Gaggia as you can from a much newer machine.
> 
> With Sage, you will be constantly looking over your shoulder and once out of warranty, when other machines will go on and on......


I fully agree with you, I got the impression from a previous comment of yours that you were anti Sage, just because it was from a corporate manufacturer, i.e. Breville and therefore not a 'real' espresso machine. However I now understand where you're coming from.

Ideally I'd not get another Sage for exactly those reasons you've stated, however on paper the specs appear to make them very good value and that's why if I decided on another I'd prefer to buy one new and then sell on leaving at least a years warranty for the buyer.

Continuing the Sage conversation, it seems to me that the BE and to a lesser extent the DTP are the models that have the most issues because I haven't read about many DBs going wrong.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

ATZ said:


> @MikeBookham I've been looking at machines around your budget too. Some that have come up:
> 
> Rocket Appartmento - although a HX has good temp stability from what I'm told. E61 so you could just get a programmable plug to ensure it's on 30min before you need it.
> 
> ...


Thanks I'll look into those models, one thing that I'm not keen on is a machine that has a long start up time, mainly because we don't have espresso on a strict regime, so a timer will be of limited use and I don't want to have to wait half an hour or more if I decide I'd like a coffee.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hi. Which grinder will you be pairing your machine with, have you got a budget for that?
> 
> Also, you said that a trip to BB is 5h round trip. I've done the trip 3 times with great pleasure, and for me it is a 4h round trip. If you are going to spend north of 1k, a day off work and a trip to Wellingborough seems worthwhile to me.


I only have a Porlex mini hand grinder, so as I mentioned in my original post, the grinder is to be separate discussion and if I was going to do a 5hr round trip drive, I'd want to have a good idea of which 2 or 3 machines I'd want to look at in depth before heading to BB, so that I made best use of my and BB's time.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you want the best possible, then go for a DB and buy a matching grinder. I am not anti Sage. I ran one for 6 months and bought my son one, but I was constantly aware of potential problems. That said, they are very good machines that let you tinker away. If you got DTP (sorry for offending anyone) they are just an entry level machine, good at the price point but cannot compete with dearer bits of kit. The Sage grinder is pretty awful though and not good enough to get the best out of a DB. A coffee machine just makes coffee with whatever you put into it. A 5k machine and a £200 grinder will still make absolute crap, but a 5k grinder with a £200......different question altogether!


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> If you want the best possible, then go for a DB and buy a matching grinder. I am not anti Sage. I ran one for 6 months and bought my son one, but I was constantly aware of potential problems. That said, they are very good machines that let you tinker away. If you got DTP (sorry for offending anyone) they are just an entry level machine, good at the price point but cannot compete with dearer bits of kit. The Sage grinder is pretty awful though and not good enough to get the best out of a DB. A coffee machine just makes coffee with whatever you put into it. A 5k machine and a £200 grinder will still make absolute crap, but a 5k grinder with a £200......different question altogether!


No offence taken lol. You're definitely right they are entry level and a great starting point. When budget and time allows I will most likely upgrade from mine to a dual boiler.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MikeBookham said:


> Thanks I'll look into those models, one thing that I'm not keen on is a machine that has a long start up time, mainly because we don't have espresso on a strict regime, so a timer will be of limited use and I don't want to have to wait half an hour or more if I decide I'd like a coffee.


My understanding is with an E61 type machines you can set them to be on at the time you're most likely to have a coffee, say morning and evening and then just have them on warm standby over a weekend.

Someone can correct me here but I don't think they have a large power demand when up to temp.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> If you want the best possible, then go for a DB and buy a matching grinder. I am not anti Sage. I ran one for 6 months and bought my son one, but I was constantly aware of potential problems. That said, they are very good machines that let you tinker away. If you got DTP (sorry for offending anyone) they are just an entry level machine, good at the price point but cannot compete with dearer bits of kit. The Sage grinder is pretty awful though and not good enough to get the best out of a DB. A coffee machine just makes coffee with whatever you put into it. A 5k machine and a £200 grinder will still make absolute crap, but a 5k grinder with a £200......different question altogether!


Yep, DTP is definitely entry level but run with a decent grinder as you say is producing pretty good results for me so far!


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

MikeBookham said:


> Specifically the DTP has a 1700W thermocoil whereas the BE is 1850W.


Correction, as I packed the BE away, it states on the box that it has a 1700W heating element, so the extra 150W must be for the grinder.

I originally took the info off the Sage website which just quoted a wattage value.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

MikeBookham said:


> Correction, as I packed the BE away, it states on the box that it has a 1700W heating element, so the extra 150W must be for the grinder.
> 
> I originally took the info off the Sage website which just quoted a wattage value.


I must admit I did wonder if that was correct 

Any further forward with a decision?


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

joey24dirt said:


> I must admit I did wonder if that was correct
> 
> Any further forward with a decision?


No decision yet, I almost caved in and asked for a replacement when I took it back to Lakeland and I popped upstairs and looked at the DB and was tempted by the Oracle, seeing as it was cheaper at £1195 than the DB which is £1299.

It's odd having an empty space the corner of the kitchen now.

I'm now drinking some V60 pour over of the Sept LSOL from Craft House Coffee (CHC).


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

joey24dirt said:


> I must admit I did wonder if that was correct
> 
> Any further forward with a decision?


Admittedly the DTP & BE are the same machine, the main reason for going for the BE over the DTP was that I bought the BE for £469.99, which I believe is £130 under RRP.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MikeBookham said:


> Thanks I'll look into those models, one thing that I'm not keen on is a machine that has a long start up time, mainly because we don't have espresso on a strict regime, so a timer will be of limited use and I don't want to have to wait half an hour or more if I decide I'd like a coffee.


Nice comparision here:






For me the Rocket has it on looks and but the Sage DB has a lot of features.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I bought a BE recently and may have the same problem at some point. They will repair them that is a fact but I have no idea of cost. One other make I wondered about is Fracino. The Piccino. Apart from that model they only make the big stuff. Said to be UK made and in my mind that is a good point these days. I live in B'ham so wondered about popping over and seeing if it was a factory or an assembly plant or etc.

It is a dual boiler machine but I have no idea how it works or heat up times. It uses a 58mm portafilter. What you are likely to loose is PID and electronics what ever you buy. Done properly there shouldn't be any need to worry about electronics. Skimped, lack of glass fibre circuit boards then maybe you should worry about them. Poor design is often the main problem when electronics fail or an under rated part. Really the electronics should outlast the mechanical bits easily. Famous last words and might put the pox on mine.

On the BE I haven't had any problems with milk but i am generally after hot milk with a controlled amount of foam. I've found it reasonably quick and easy to use. Way better than an electrically heated sealed thing we had some years ago.

John


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Piccino is a pain as it has to go to an engineer/factory to be descaled, unless you are very handy with the spanners


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

MikeBookham said:


> Continuing the Sage conversation, it seems to me that the BE and to a lesser extent the DTP are the models that have the most issues because I haven't read about many DBs going wrong.


That's not the impression I get from the forum postings over the last few years. I can only recall 1 post about a faulty DTP. Posts about other Sage machines failing are certainly more common. It seems logical since the DTP is fairly simple and there's less to go wrong.

Perhaps someone with more time on their hands can do a proper search and count.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Good reason to avoid. ;-) I live in B'ham and have never ever had to descale anything. Maybe the think the whole world is like that. Might be needed on an espresso machine though due to the sound of water steaming off after a shot is run off.

I nosed about on the web before buying. Saw many comments that new versions were not as well built as their older counterparts. All break at some point and etc.

The thing I didn't like about the BE or their other models and others is the portaheads. They vary which means that they have to stock and make more types of parts, that costs. Not that they would pass on savings but it indicates that they aren't very efficient companies.

My first approach to the OP's problem would be can I take it apart and fix it myself. Next one would be will the people who service them sell me the part. Their name can be obtained from an Amazon review. I'd also look around to see if any other machines used a rotating knob to select where stuff came out. Probably no point on the BE though as it will probably have some sort of electric connection built in. Or maybe they use a solenoid arrangement and the knob connects to a switch.

This may be the outfit to contact

http://coffeeclassics.co.uk/what-we-do/machine-repair-or-breakdown/

John

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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

It was under warranty as it was only 6months old, so no point in trying to fix it myself or pay someone else to fix it.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I didn't realise that as my natural reaction would be to just get them to fix it. Interesting thread for me though as I was in two minds about the DB when we bought the BE. I'd stick with the BE to avoid the 3 min heat up time. On the other hand if they have insulated it reasonably the energy usage shouldn't be high and it can be set up with a timer anyway.

I'd bet that the BE sales numbers are significantly higher than the DB. That might influence reports. Part of my decision was based on comments that they all go wrong from time to time also many complaints about the build quality of the newer versions of some of the popular machines. I get the impression that there is more money behind where ever Sage stuff comes from than others. That allows them to spend more on changes such as PDI and i suspect the use of microprocessors. Once one of those is in there all sorts of things become possible and cheap. Unfortunately it doesn't mean that build quality is good though. Have to wait and see on mine. It recently asked for it's first cleaning cycle.

John


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

@MikeBookham any further along with a decision? I'm thinking of visiting Bella Barista for to see some machines in the flesh


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

ATZ said:


> @MikeBookham any further along with a decision? I'm thinking of visiting Bella Barista for to see some machines in the flesh


I think that I've come to the conclusion that I don't want to spend £1000 on a machine, £500+ on a grinder & assorted accessories and end up spending around £2000.

In my mind I can't really justify spending around £2000 so I think that I'll look at 2nd hand equipment next and try and keep the espresso machine & grinder under £1000 if possible & I'd prefer to keep away from Sage due to reliability issues, though I'll try and keep on open mind on this.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MikeBookham said:


> I think that I've come to the conclusion that I don't want to spend £1000 on a machine, £500+ on a grinder & assorted accessories and end up spending around £2000.
> 
> In my mind I can't really justify spending around £2000 so I think that I'll look at 2nd hand equipment next and try and keep the espresso machine & grinder under £1000 if possible & I'd prefer to keep away from Sage due to reliability issues, though I'll try and keep on open mind on this.


I think you could get a new machine and very capable grinder second hand for that price or vice versa.

Personally I'd be inclined to spend more on the grinder as the difference a super jolly has made to my brews is amazing.

Only thing is decent second hand machines don't come up all that often so be prepared to stay patient.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

As above...You can get a Nouva Simonelli Oscar II and Compak K3 touch in a package deal at BB - brand new with cast iron warranty - £920. Just a suggestion. Or get a second hand titan grinder as ATZ suggests.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

lake_m said:


> As above...You can get a Nouva Simonelli Oscar II and Compak K3 touch in a package deal at BB - brand new with cast iron warranty - £920. Just a suggestion. Or get a second hand titan grinder as ATZ suggests.


I've just watched the 'Seattle Coffee Gear' review of the Nuova Simonelli Oscar II and I think that it is a little too automated for me as we can't adjust the pre-infusion of amount of water during the brew cycle because it is all pre-programmed in advance.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

MikeBookham said:


> I've just watched the 'Seattle Coffee Gear' review of the Nuova Simonelli Oscar II and I think that it is a little too automated for me as we can't adjust the pre-infusion of amount of water during the brew cycle because it is all pre-programmed in advance.


I think you can adjust the volumetric buttons for water volume on single or double buttons, but not the pre-infusion time.

That kinda takes us back to 'Sage' land then for the price. Programmable pre-infusion is quite a high end feature (except on the Sage). My £1,400 machine doesn't have it.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

lake_m said:


> I think you can adjust the volumetric buttons for water volume on single or double buttons, but not the pre-infusion time.
> 
> That kinda takes us back to 'Sage' land then for the price. Programmable pre-infusion is quite a high end feature (except on the Sage). My £1,400 machine doesn't have it.


Or a lower end E61 where you can hold the pre infusion to preference and have a degree of mechanical pre infusion too.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

ATZ said:


> Or a lower end E61 where you can hold the pre infusion to preference and have a degree of mechanical pre infusion too.


Isn't that only with plumbed in E61 models? (I'm no expert).


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

lake_m said:


> Isn't that only with plumbed in E61 models? (I'm no expert).


Nah you can do it on some non plumbed versions too.


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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

lake_m said:


> I think you can adjust the volumetric buttons for water volume on single or double buttons, but not the pre-infusion time.
> 
> That kinda takes us back to 'Sage' land then for the price. Programmable pre-infusion is quite a high end feature (except on the Sage). My £1,400 machine doesn't have it.


Yes, you can adjust the volumetric buttons, but that's not the same as manual control. The Sage machines have more controlability than the Oscar II. To me it would feel too much of a sideways step.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

ATZ said:


> Nah you can do it on some non plumbed versions too.


Maybe I'm getting muddled up.

Tanked machines with controlled pre-infusion (the likes of the Vesuvius, R60v, GS3 MP and other mega machines) is a far cry from a tanked E61 with vibe pump that just spits the residual pressure in the group onto the puck before the pump kicks in. Half way house would be plumbed in, line pressure pre infusion but these machines aren't exactly cheap either.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've found this thread fascinating. I might have bought anything. Nearly a lever machine but the price increase for 16 cups was off putting. If I had looked hard enough I might have bought one if these






Whoops no hot water so no good for me.

John

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## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

ATZ said:


> I think you could get a new machine and very capable grinder second hand for that price or vice versa.
> 
> Personally I'd be inclined to spend more on the grinder as the difference a super jolly has made to my brews is amazing.
> 
> Only thing is decent second hand machines don't come up all that often so be prepared to stay patient.


Last point is so true.

Been waiting for second hand Cherub for over a month now.

One on ebay for £450 but its 4 years old and has been used a lot so not sure £450 is worth it.

Only one I can afford brand new is Piccino or Oscar 2.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Playing devil's advocate the other option is stick with the Sage. Thanks to this thread and forum I know a bit more than I did when I bought mine. On that basis the only other machine that might appeal to me is the Musica. I'm assuming it's quieter plus it has a heated group head - save doing it each time some one makes a drink. Downside, maybe 1/2hr or more to get it all hot. Could probably speed that up by running water through the head which wouldn't be a bad idea to keep the sprinkler clean anyway.

The other gain is instant steam. It takes 10 secs for the Sage to produce steam and less time for it to cool down afterwards for coffee. Pass on steam power but looking at the video's is there much difference? I'd look at several as a check.

Grinding. Pass in some respects but some fresh roasted blue mountain needed a setting of 4, maybe lower. Most beans seem to be around 6 to 8. The grinder is always active as long as the machine is on. There are also additional grinding adjustments on the top burr. So far for me once set the amount produced has been constant.

In short I don't think it's really possible to beat it for a machine that can just be switched on and used pretty quickly. It also produced dry pucks once the fill is correct.

I googled sage duo boiler faulty - 216,000 hits not all on faults and some on Breville. There were 64,000 hits pn Sage BE. Goes up to 558,000 if the Sage is dropped. They will have sold a lot more BE's than DB's. All the good men do is buried with the bones, evil lives long after etc. Generally people are more likely to comment on faults rather than lack of them.

I get the impression that all makes and types develop faults and if kept need repairing. What might matter is costs of repair. Don't know but the general maintenance parts branded Sage aren't too bad at all really. A portafilter is about £38 which I suspect is pretty good for that sort of thing. The need for an engineer will up repair costs but they seem to have people all over the place -or say they do. I've no idea what the engineer rates are or how easy the machines are to work on.








I suspect if you made a list of gains and losses on both options you might well finish up staying with the BE. There is a used Musica on ebay at the moment but that might develop a fault shortly after buying it. There's no way of knowing.

John

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## MikeBookham (Sep 3, 2016)

In reality I've not ruled out a Sage as they come with a 3 year warranty if bought from Lakeland and as you say part prices are reasonable in the event that it went wrong out of warranty and if Sage sell all the parts to consumers direct and then I'd have no issue having a go and fixing it myself.

I just feel that it makes sense to upgrade as the opportunity has arisen.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MikeBookham said:


> In reality I've not ruled out a Sage as they come with a 3 year warranty if bought from Lakeland and as you say part prices are reasonable in the event that it went wrong out of warranty and if Sage sell all the parts to consumers direct and then I'd have no issue having a go and fixing it myself.
> 
> I just feel that it makes sense to upgrade as the opportunity has arisen.


Sage are great for convenience and features for price.

But if I'm spending the sort of money a DB commands I want shiny metal and E61, heritage and long lasting. All things sage don't have, you could argue the longevity aspect either way but the e61 machines have a track record, sage are too new to have one yet.

I'm writing this after just pulling a shot on my duo temp pro by the way


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sage wont sell what might be called internal parts to consumers but they don't actually do the repair work. One of the Amazon reviews points that out. The company that does the repair work might or might not.

As I read it the E61 machines break too. Parts may be more readily available but that might just relate to people who are aware of what parts look like so can identify what is needed. Us - we might be forced to buy from the distributor or shop etc that happens to supply them. What's different ? Chances are for most of us not much.

The big question really is would an upgrade make better coffee? Control on the rate and way the water goes in seems to be rather limited so if some one wants that they would probably find a simple lever machine is the only option or something that costs rather a lot more, if there is such an item.

This thread has more or less convinced me that an upgrade in my case is highly unlikely. It seems to offer more disadvantages than advantages for double the cost and a bit more.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I have a feeling that at some point I will want a filter basket sized between the 2 that Sage provide. When I bought my BE I did look around for an E61 machine but couldn't find one that suited. If I had seen this one then maybe

https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=lapavoni-domus-bar-termopid-dmbpid

They seem to use an E61 head on all of their machines ?? - I think - adds hardly ever mention it. I think there is another version on the same site. There are hardly any reviews at all on their range of machines. Amazon ones seem to be favourable but an older machine.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I sorted the monsooned malabar out today the Sage way maybe. I found that the grinder needed setting to 5 along with a bit over 9gm of coffee firmly tamped as suggested. 10gm of this result in the portafilter being a tighter fit as the coffee is being compressed. The grinder has produced bang on 9.2gm of coffee over 4 shots that I measured and the witness marks on top of the puck have remained constant for a further 2 so far. Set like this counting 101,102 etc slowly gave an infusion time of just under 7 secs. Right at the top of Sage's recommendations. In practice it might be circa 5 secs really

The net effect of the set up is a slight bite as I would describe it to the coffee that's produced. The grind timer is about 2/3 of the way round and it produces a fair heap of coffee that needs thumbing into the basket before tamping.

Thought it might be worth mentioning as this bean is popular going on sites that sell it and have reviews. The beans I have are dark and shiny. Hope the next lot are the same.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

*whispers dtp*  if you don't like it just send it back


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> *whispers dtp*  if you don't like it just send it back


No - I like the bite. It's slight and strength is fine. The only sad thing about the machine and all of their others is just 2 sizes of basket. The same applies to most machines. They are just not up to the times and are stuck on people drinking rather small cups of coffee - even straight espressos. If I do change I will be bearing that fact in mind. A super smooth really strong monsooned ground at maybe 7 would need a 12g as Sage measure them filter basket or a wet mess in the 2 shot.

:act-up:I found a competitor to the DP and others.

http://household.graef.de/produkte/espresso-machine/espresso-machine-baronessa-es-902/

No one in the UK stocks it. Price around 900 euro's. Heat up time 2mins due I assume to having a lower power than usual heat exchanger for the coffee. The steam probable comes up a lot quicker. They also do one at over twice the price of that one for real fanatics. Some would drool over what that can do. I'm not a fan of .de engineering in general but they can be better than most in some cases. Maybe they are on this one. It's a pretty obvious thing to do.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Doh _ I meant to add my post to the one I made on the BE. Maybe a mod can move them.

Sorry and all that.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> No - I like the bite. It's slight and strength is fine. The only sad thing about the machine and all of their others is just 2 sizes of basket. The same applies to most machines. They are just not up to the times and are stuck on people drinking rather small cups of coffee - even straight espressos. If I do change I will be bearing that fact in mind. A super smooth really strong monsooned ground at maybe 7 would need a 12g as Sage measure them filter basket or a wet mess in the 2 shot.
> 
> :act-up:I found a competitor to the DP and others.
> 
> ...


Just for info the la Spaziale IMS baskets will fit the sage DTP/BE with a little bit of minor fettling also the IMS shower screen to match.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Bit more info on the baskets. I think I have only noticed one machine maker that produces 4 different sizes of basket. I think the Graef uses 58mm baskets. Personally when choosing a machine I think it s the would be a good idea to ask what the filter basket size is as it's seldom given in the details on the machine. The BE is 54mm. I thought that the DTP was 58mm I believe there are other machines that use the same size as the BE but it seems to be impossible to be sure.

Actually the BE baskets where they clip in are around 54.7mm dia. If I have the wrong dimension that relates to the size please tell me. The size varies a bit too. Maybe +/- 0.1mm I'm not aware of any seller that always gives these sizes.

I just tried 12gm in the BE double shot basket with the same grind as I was using on the single shot. The infusion time was still long but the puck just falls out leaving "some" behind. I timed an extra 3gm in my head. The puck was wet but no excess water left. The drink was stronger as would be expected but with less bite. Where I suspect other sizes of basket would be most useful is with beans that are weaker than monsoon malabar or some what in between that and the weakest.

Having always worked in manufacture one aspect annoys me. The main reason for some of the reduction in sizes boils down to penny pinching but might have been done for other reasons. I don't think cost was really one of them.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Bit more info on the baskets. I think I have only noticed one machine maker that produces 4 different sizes of basket. I think the Graef uses 58mm baskets. Personally when choosing a machine I think it s the would be a good idea to ask what the filter basket size is as it's seldom given in the details on the machine. The BE is 54mm. I thought that the DTP was 58mm I believe there are other machines that use the same size as the BE but it seems to be impossible to be sure.
> 
> Actually the BE baskets where they clip in are around 54.7mm dia. If I have the wrong dimension that relates to the size please tell me. The size varies a bit too. Maybe +/- 0.1mm I'm not aware of any seller that always gives these sizes.
> 
> ...


DTP is the same size as the BE


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> Just for info the la Spaziale IMS baskets will fit the sage DTP/BE with a little bit of minor fettling also the IMS shower screen to match.


Doh - Getting my machines mixed up. Assume that the dual boiler is 58mm. Seriously though I am pretty happy with the BE other than the baskets.







Maybe the taper on the bean hopper should be steeper though. Twice now I have seen beans and thought there was enough and the grind ran short. Lock and unlock the hopper without moving it and more beans grind. Might be time to clean it as it's only happened on monsooned malabar. Once we get rid of some preground coffee I can program the shot size. My latest shot size is disgusting though - one press of the one shot followed by one press of the 2 shot. Along with the timer on the hot water supply that gets liquid levels where I want them.

Where can I get these filter baskets from and what sizes ? I noticed that IMS do a small rather expensive machine but saw a comment mentioning 53mm. Some rough idea of the fettling would be nice plus why their shower screen?.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Where can I get these filter baskets from and what sizes ? I noticed that IMS do a small rather expensive machine but saw a comment mentioning 53mm. Some rough idea of the fettling would be nice plus why their shower screen?.
> 
> John
> 
> -


That's right the DB is a 58mm.

Baskets are from theespressoshop.co.uk

Basket link....

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/Mobile/MobileModels.aspx?ModelID=2007

Shower screen link...

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/Mobile/MobileModels.aspx?ModelID=2022

With the basket you just have to squeeze the ridges in a little bit for it to fit. If you go down this path then please take your time over it.

The screen disperses the water a little bit better but not by much I think. It looks cool though


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Can I take it that all La Spaziale baskets are the same size. The same description less the IMS part is available from several place for a few quid eg

https://www.coffeehit.co.uk/catalogsearch/result/?q=spaziale

This one suggests that the actual volume is the same as the Sage double - quick volume check. The sage one is 65ml filled to the brim, a few ml less by the look of it. I spilled some tipping it in.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Replacement-Portafilter-SPAZIALE-Espresso-Machines/dp/B01MRASGRU/ref=sr_1_17?s=kitchen&ie=UTF8&qid=1506959064&sr=1-17&keywords=portafilter+basket

Looks like if I ever need to use the double basket for single shots I'll have to have a brush to keep in the knock box or extremely weak beans.

John

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