# Grinder + Espresso Machine



## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Hi there

I am a recent convert from instant to fresh ground beans in a french press. I am looking to move to a decent espresso machine and grinder.

For the machine, I am thinking a Gaggia. My head is telling me to go for the Gaggia Classic with it's more robust body, but I do prefer the modern lines and buttons of the Baby. Also, do I get a Refurb with 90 day warranty, or is it worth getting a brand new for £90 more with 2 yrs and the new style wand?

As for the grinder, I am even more undecided. I do like the look of the Vario, but it is a lot more expensive than what I was hoping to spend. Am I right in thinking that some of the quirks of this machine have been ironed out in the later versions?

Of the cheaper alternatives, nothing jumps out to me yet. Once I have an espresso machine, I will not be using a french press and I have never gotten along with filter coffee, so it does not need to handle the coarser grinds, but I will probably experiment with different beans so imagine will need to handle moving to different grinds. I am by no means a heavy coffee drinker and I am the only one in the household.

Any advice will be much appreciated.

Cheers

tribs


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

The reason I said about the Virtuoso in the other thread was a) because I have one and rate it and b) because it's a breeze to switch between different grinds from French to AeroPress to espresso. If you're sure you will only be using it for espresso then don't worry about getting a stepped one like that. Stick to the step less ones. I'm actually after a Vario and will probably upgade to it soon. Like I said before, whatever you buy there's always something better to aspire to. Why not just try and MC2 for now and see how you get on. That way you'll have a decent grinder that also has a good resale value incase you want to go up later.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

im very happy with my Vario, but im also liking the ability to switch coarseness easily as i use a filter machine at work a lot, but i understand its pricey, i had the same problem as it was the absolute top of my budget, id just like to let you know the grind retention is virtually zero, and so is the mess, ive yet to clean up ANY grind thats gone west of the basket, the steps also make adjusting very easy, no slack to take up in any worm drive, and its very easy to see your settings and tinker with them, also the micro adjustments do make *very* small differences to the shot


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

My parsimonious nature is being chiseled down day by day by the Vario. It's only a matter of time before I buckle.

Not wishing to hijack your thread tribes, but I'm actually edging the opposite way to you and thinking of giving up on espresso. Is spending £300 odd quid on a grinder ridiculous if you're just using it for press/filter?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Go for the Classic rather than the Baby. It's a better machine. I'd seriously consider a refurbed one from Mark (gaggiamanualservice). http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?5427-Anyone-want-a-classic&p=31708#post31708


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

There are a number of different "Baby" machines (New Baby, Baby Class, Baby Twin, etc.). Despite being described as a double boiler machine, from opinions and comments I have read, I would be inclined to steer clear of the Baby Twin because of reliability issues and the fact it actually uses a thermoblock for the steaming. I used to own a Baby Class myself before upgrading and it has the same internal parts as the Classic with the exception that it's steam wand is connected via a ball joint which makes it easier to position but harder to replace with a third party steam arm than with the Classic (lookup Silvia steam wand mod). Also, with the Classic it is possible to adjust the Over Pressure Valve which I do not believe is possible with the Baby Class.

Most of the other Baby models lack features found on the Baby Class and Classic such as the three way solenoid valve.


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Good advice, thanks.

This is the Baby, I was thinking of

Beautiful, don't you think? It is ABS rather than SS and I believe it has the solenoid. Styling is more current, also. Is this a New Baby? It does sound like the Classic is the more sensible option. I just wish it was a little prettier.


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

Shameless plug I know but I have a vgc condition Baby in the Classified section. 2010 'Ivory' model.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

My two pennies ... get a classic or even a nearly new reconditioned classic. They are reliable, easy to work on and replace parts and, most important, you can actually make drinks resembling espresso with them. For the price, the Classic is a great bargain and can't be beaten. I was also shocked to see how unreliable some of the other Gaggia machines are. Philips is not doing a great job of looking after this once great company.


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

My one piece of advice/caution would be to not assume that you'll not want French Press anymore and perhaps pay up now for that flexibility.

Espresso is a long and hard road filed with trial and error and the ability to fall back on a good cup of French press may be just the tonic.

I brought a Vario a couple of weeks back and in the time I've had my new toy, the best cup I've had from it was Press Coffee with some very fresh beans.

In the same way that a good grinder and fresh beans will pretty much hands down beat a cup of coffee from a chain shop, I think the same is try when comparing fresh press coffee to the pre-packed/ground packs from the supermarket.

Espresso&#8230;..I'm still learning


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

This is a very good point. An AeroPress is you friend for those days you're not near your machine when in the future you've inevitably become a coffee snob and will no longer drink your friends instant/supermarket garbage


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Thanks, I had mentally saved myself a couple hundred quid by settling on the MC2







.

The thing that keeps me interested in the Vario though, despite the price, is that it is one of a few grinders that wouldn't look out of place in a modern kitchen.


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Ok, while I work on getting a grinder and machine sorted. I am looking at accessories and cleaning now.

I was thinking of getting some of the Motta stuff from Cream Supplies. Seems very reasonable. Tamper, Milk Jug, Thermometer. Is a stand and knock out box vital at this stage?

Then onto cleaning. Obviously a couple of brushes. I've heard mention Grindz, to clean the grinder. Then what?

Could also do with some scales. Cream Supplies do one, but no stock for 3 weeks.

Cheers

tribs


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

You might want to consider the following:

- small scales accurate to 0.1g

- 58mm tamper

- 58mm blind filter basket

- Caffiza or similar detergent

- Grindz or similar cleaner for grinders

- group brush e.g. pallo tool

- grinder burr brush

- timer

- Espresso machine descaler

- milk pitcher

- milk thermometer

CoffeeHit, HasBean and CreamSupplies are all good places to get these items.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Earlepap said:


> My parsimonious nature is being chiseled down day by day by the Vario. It's only a matter of time before I buckle.


The day has finally come. I eagerly await delivery.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I love mine


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Having passed on a few ebay used Classics, that went too close to the price of a new machine for my liking, I decided to get a brand new Classic.

Having been messed around by Parcel farce for a couple of days, I received my Gaggia Classic this afternoon. I gleefully opened the box only to find that the portafilter had pushed through the upper packing into the warming tray on top of the machine and scratched / dented it. So, it is going back tomorrow, and of course, they are out of stock at the moment, so a bit more of a wait unfortunately.









I did have a look at the machine before repacking it and have discovered that I will need a new basket, as it appears only pressurised filters are supplied (single hole on the bottom?) I may as well get a bottomless / naked portafilter too.

I have won a Super Jolly for a pretty decent price on ebay, but probably can't get around to picking it up until next week. Hopefully will have both around the same time.

Who sells Grindz and Cafiza? Is the Puly stuff similar?

Also I presume the SJ is going to be difficult to switch between brewed and espresso. I could probably get away with the blade grinder for brewed. I think I am getting pretty good at gauging the fineness of the grind. I'm wondering if it'd be worthwhile getting a cheaper burr such as the Gaggia MM or the Krups one or even a Porlex for a bit more consistency, though. Any thoughts?

Thanks for the help so far.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Good price that. I've been seeing it for about £13. Ordered some cheers


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Ok, my replacement Classic should be here tomorrow. However I won't have my hands on the Super Jolly until the end of the week.

Is there any point having a go with my blade grinder? Also, if I can't resist would I be better using the pressurised basket with such an uneven grind, rather than the VST?

Cheers

tribs


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

If you try and use the blade grinder and the VST you won't get anything like coffee out of it. Probably just a lot of mess







You might stand a chance with the pressurised. Why not nip to the super market and buy some espresso ground stuff (or better still get a local coffee shop to grind some for you). It won't be good but at least you can experiment a bit.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Coffeehit, HappyDonkey and Cream Supplies are all good ports of call for espresso making accessories and cleaning supplies. You should also be able to get replacement filter baskets from them too. Any 58mm filter basket should fit and these sites have some at reasonably prices. Of course the VST baskets are brilliant but they do come at a premium.

For espresso, the uniformity of the grind particle size is especially important to achieving an even extraction. If the particles are different sizes then they will yield their solids to the brew water at different rates. If you decide to use a blade grinder for espresso you might be frustrated and very disappointed with the results. As an alternative, interim measure, you might consider pre-ground coffee with the pressurised basket. The results will not be anywhere near as good as grinding your own but it might serve until the grinder arrives


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Dont use a mazzer for both. Better to just grab a hand grinder for brewed until you decide to get a dedicated elec grinder for it.


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## rock18567 (Mar 14, 2012)

chimpsinties said:


> The reason I said about the Virtuoso in the other thread was a) because I have one and rate it and b) because it's a breeze to switch between different grinds from French to AeroPress to espresso. If you're sure you will only be using it for espresso then don't worry about getting a stepped one like that. Stick to the step less ones. I'm actually after a Vario and will probably upgade to it soon. Like I said before, whatever you buy there's always something better to aspire to. Why not just try and MC2 for now and see how you get on. That way you'll have a decent grinder that also has a good resale value incase you want to go up later.


I'm confused about it for a long time.


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Well the Classic arrived









As you can imagine, I couldn't help having a play. I am actually getting the Mazzer tomorrow so decided there was no point getting some pre-ground. What I have learnt so far.

1. My scales are too small. Tried weighing the portafilter - EEEEEE- Ok, nevermind, so at least I can weigh the shot. Gaggia espresso cup on the scales - EEEEEE - dammit.

2. Using the pressurised basket I can actually make passable espresso even using the blade grinder. I imagine these baskets are more forgiving and that is why they are the only ones supplied. It is more difficult to make bad shots but probably more difficult to make great shots too. Without scales I was not too sure what size shot I was aiming for. I filled the gaggia cup which holds ~60ml which is around 2oz which is about right, I think, for a full double basket (~18g).

3. The steam seems ok. I've been using without the attachment. The wand is a bit short though which is probably why the Silvia one is a popular upgrade.

Happy so far. Can't wait to get the Mazzer and start using the VST.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

Did you get the notched version of the VST? If so you can remove the wire from the portafilter and just insert the basket. It should be easily removable after that and can then fit on your small scales (I use a small plastic beaker which weighs 59g - well within the 200g scale limit). May I also remind you that the other thing to do is take out the plastic bit that fits in the bottom of the Gaggia portafilter.

Best of luck with your new Classic.

Al


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Cheers Al. I've got the ridgeless. Actually I haven't even thought to try it yet (to see how it fits).

That plastic thing is gonna get lost very soon. I keep forgetting its there and it just falls out when I remove the basket.


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Thought I'd post an update. I picked up the Super Jolly and have given it a good clean. It's actually in very good shape. I have yet to clean out the doser, so I have rigged a temporary ghetto doserless mod until I get around to sorting it.

It didn't take much to get it dialled in and I got some very good shots from the Lusty Glaze. I read a post where MikeHag suggested a shorter brew length (around 23 secs) with these beans and I tried that and at almost Ristretto volumes got some really tasty rich and complex espresso with caramel notes. I struggled to get milk drinks that I liked though until I started diluting the shots with hot water before adding the milk.

The Lusty has gone now, so I am back to the Costa beans which I suspect are somewhat stale now. I am not getting very good espresso with these. They are overly bitter and there is not much crema. I can get reasonable milk drinks though. Is this what you would expect from stale beans (bitterness) or do you think I need to experiment more with grind and brew length?

Cheers all

tribs


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Stale beans will account for the lack of crema. The bitterness maybe due to the roast being too dark (compared to Lusty) or you could be over-extracting.

Try an extra gram or two in the dose but keep the pour time the same


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

They are considerably darker than Lusty. I don't think I am over extracting but will try your advice, although I am struggling to fit 16g of these beans in my 18g VST. Grind a little coarser or double tamp?


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I think double tamping is generally frowned upon, though I'm by no means an expert.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

tribs said:


> They are considerably darker than Lusty. I don't think I am over extracting but will try your advice, although I am struggling to fit 16g of these beans in my 18g VST. Grind a little coarser or double tamp?


Grinding a little finer will allow more in the basket.....Dont double tamp, no need


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

17g in 26g out in 25 secs. Still the same. Really thick black liquid. Little crema. Sort of soapy bitter (burnt) taste.

Will try brewing this tomorrow, see if it is the beans. Perhaps I don't like these dark roasted beans as espresso. I have only brewed these previously.

I am almost certain these beans are stale, but I am keen to know whether it is this or the dark roast that is giving the bitterness.


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