# Londinium



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi, as some may know, I had an L1.........I no longer have an L1. The only reason I am saying this, is I have bought a Strega, so in case anyone wondered, but, that's as much as I will say on the topic.

Anyway, my Strega turned up today. Now, I know that the L1 owners on here will come at me with comments and observations, but let me state now, I am not interested in comparing the two machines.......they are very different aimed at different people. I bought it from BellaBarista so it arrived well boxed and safe. In fact, a lot of companies could take heed of the way they double box items. I have bought a succession of machines, grinders and roasters from them and never once suffered from any transit problems. So, opened and unpacked and on the bench. I bought the tanked version and the 4 litre tank is both easy to get to and easy to fill. Switch her on and it took approximately 13 minutes to come to working pressure.




























Overall, I am quite happy with the finish on her. There are one or two nice touches like the Serpents on the handles. Apparently, this had to be modified as the original artwork showed a black child in the mouth!










The only odd things are the cowl which hides the lever mechanism is a heavy anodised plastic as opposed to metal. The machine does flex a little, but then I asked myself, so what? These tend to be arguments used by those who have no wish or desire to buy the product as justification why. A forum member who bought the Duetto said that the build was better on it. I would expect that since the machine costs around £600 more!

So, why the Strega? I wanted a lever machine firstly. Jim Schulman on Home Barista did an in depth review of a prototype at the back end of 2011. On the machines ability, to vary the extraction process, he said, 'Unless you buy yourself a Slayer or a Hydra, you will not be able to do this.' The Slayer was recently top on a lot of peoples fantasy list.

To some people that statement will be meaningless, but to more experienced users it might get you thinking. This means that you can extract the elements you want out of a shot, and not simply accept whatever comes out after you press the button. With most machines, you can dictate the bean, grind and tamp, but once you flick the switch/pull the lever, then after that you have no control. Own a Strega and you do have that control. Now, I have only pulled a dozen or so shots o her so am not going to enthuse about the quality or claim I have just pulled the best shot I have ever had. I am going to play with her a lot and see exactly what she can do. but, where I expect the biggest differences, is in my ability to vary my home roasting to suit the flavour profiles I want.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

But obviously people will want to know the differences between this and the L1.

Purely from a neutrals point-of-view









Beautiful machine though! The PF handle is very eye-catching! Enjoy.

You realise its not match for the brewing power of the tin man though.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Tin Man due to arrive tomorrow! Full review to follow!


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Hi, as some may know, I had an L1.........I no longer have an L1. The only reason I am saying this, is I have bought a Strega, so in case anyone wondered, but, that's as much as I will say on the topic.
> 
> Anyway, my Strega turned up today. Now, I know that the L1 owners on here will come at me with comments and observations, but let me state now, I am not interested in comparing the two machines.......they are very different aimed at different people. I bought it from BellaBarista so it arrived well boxed and safe.
> 
> The only odd things are the cowl which hides the lever mechanism is a heavy anodised plastic as opposed to metal. The machine does flex a little, but then I asked myself, so what? These tend to be arguments used by those who have no wish or desire to buy the product as justification why. A forum member who bought the Duetto said that the build was better on it. I would expect that since the machine costs around £600 more!


Yes it WAS me and YES it was £600 more for my Alex! Still thought the Strega looked a terrific machine and the decoration and detail are really stylish. Hope you have great fun exploring the new machine and look forward to hearing of your experience with it. Couldn't believe how strong the spring lever is! In the end would have struggled to find room in my kitchen for the tall lever.... And I just wasn't quite certain it was the one for me.

We're both overdosing on caffeine this week then


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

Presumably this makes your L1 the very first one to be sold second-hand?


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

The logo looks a bit like that of Alfa Romeo... Very stylish!

From the Jim Schulman videos, it looks like you have got what you need DFK, bearing in mind that you roast your own coffee.

It will be interesting to see how you get on... You must be one of the first people in the UK to buy one, I have never seen anyone else on these or other forums, if there are others, they don't seem to post much?

Keep us posted!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

IanP, you could not have chosen a better machine than the Duetto. It will let you grow into it for many yeasr to come. If I had not bought the Strega and had wanted an E61, then that is exactly what I would have gone for.

Stephen, the logo is shared with Alfa and one or two other Italian companies but it obviously can only be used under licence. I wish the machine had been a couple of hundred quid dearer though and the logo had been laser cut in! One thing about Bezzera is, that they manufacture all their own parts which allows them to control various factors in the manufacture. It was the home roasting aspect that really got me thinking but that is going to be a long term project. I am not particularly mechanically or scientifically minded, so my bottom line is always going to be based on taste. Just playing around today with the kilo of Bezzeras own beans that BB kindly gave me, it was easy for me to identify completely different taste patterns when I started to interfere with th extraction process. I see a problem arising though, as my palate is not delicate and I have problems identifying bergamot from vanilla!


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Congrats, will be very interested to follow how you get on with it as it is a top of my upgrade list for purchase later in the year to celebrate the big 30! I quite like the styling actually, classic with some nice flourishes, more machine than style in general though.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Stunning pictures David - look forward to hearing how you and the Stega get to know each other.


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

Hmmm...looking forward to your experiences with this beauty Dave,watched the bella video and read lots on the Strega as this or the londinium will probably be my next upgrade(unless coffeechap has a fit of madness and sell his bosco in the same price bracket)so be nice to hear some forum experience feedback


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Everything is for sale ha ha ha


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## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Everything is for sale ha ha ha


Haha,yeah.&#8230;for a price


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

David, lovely machine and great to see you so happy. May you enjoy many a sleepless night together!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Anyway, my Strega turned up today. Now, I know that the L1 owners on here will come at me with comments and observations, but let me state now, I am not interested in comparing the two machines.......they are very different aimed at different people.


I'm sorry David, but that's a ridiculous assertion. The machines are both aimed at people who want espresso machines with commercial lever groups, which is a very tiny niche within the world of coffee machines. To that extent, they are very similar machines and I do not know why you are coy about comparing them. Nor have I any idea why you have given up your Londinium I in favour of the Strega. This seems, to me, rather strange behaviour.

Could you elucidate, please?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Why has there got to be some other motive, there are many lever machines out there and the L1 and Strega are vastly different lever machines with vastly different groups and at vastly different price points, you could compare my Bosco to the L1 but again they are very different machines, with the same group.

The Strega presents different options that for someone who roasts their own beans might be more advantageous than the L1 or perhaps it is over complicated, who knows, but I am sure David will give his onset evaluation of how the Strega meets his needs.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

RoloD said:


> I'm sorry David, but that's a ridiculous assertion. The machines are both aimed at people who want espresso machines with commercial lever groups, which is a very tiny niche within the world of coffee machines. To that extent, they are very similar machines and I do not know why you are coy about comparing them. Nor have I any idea why you have given up your Londinium I in favour of the Strega. This seems, to me, rather strange behaviour.
> 
> Could you elucidate, please?


Crikey that's a bit of an unnecessarily aggressive sounding response/reaction isn't it? We are on a public forum talking about something supposedly enjoyable and ultimately a luxury item. Anyone would think he'd passed personally critical comment about a family member! Calm down


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Sorry, my tone was rather too emphatic. I really didn't mean to be hostile. I'm just genuinely interested in comparing the Strega to the LI (they are not "vastly different lever machines with vastly different groups and at vastly different price points") and also in why David decided to return his LI. There are only, to my knowledge, three espresso machines with commerical lever groups designed for the home market, so to not compare them just seems - well, a little strange.

Apologies again if I sounded agressive. I was just surprised, really, and curious.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

I just looked up Alfa Romeo on Wikipedia, and that logo is apparently known as the "Biscione" or viper, it is/was the emblem of a Milanese family... Visconti.

Ya go through life and ya larn a little bit every day.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Sounds like the camorra in Naples! Your coffee machine was made by the mafia? Delightful!


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## LeverAspirations (Mar 29, 2013)

If no comparison was intended then why create a thread about your Strega called 'Londinium' where you refuse to discuss the machine in the thread's title?

As someone interested in both machines, it strikes me as a little odd.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rolo, no offense taken. The point I was trying to put across (sometimes I hate the written format!) was that I did not wish to be seen as an embittered ex L1 owner who thought he had found a better machine and was therefore going to attack at all times.

I am quite happy to discuss the machines, from my limited perspective and look forward to doing so. The only thing I do not want to discuss is the rationale. let me just say, that in life, every one can have their own opinion on a subject, and be right. Anything from here following is an observation, not a criticism.

The packaging; Bezeera/BB have got this spot on. The machine arrives sitting on really thick polystyrene wrapped in heavy duty plastic, which form a tight fitting open sided capsule.




























This is then double boxed with polystyrene surrounding the gap. I do not know what would happen if the package suffered a major trauma of the sort that can happen in transit but, it seems well thought through. That said, bezzera have been doing this since 1901 so I guess experience counts for something. I think I am possible the first UK pwerson BB have supplied. I know their other 2 machines went abroad. A nice touch was a kilo of Bezzeras own branded espresso mix, which I thought, oh no, here will be a typical dark roast, burnt b;end but I could not be more wrong! It was a medium roast at worst, and actually very pleasant to drink either with or without milk. I alsi received a pair of Bezzera espresso cups which are in one of the earlier photos.

I have made about 20 shots so far, and have just quite simply been playing around. I have been using the beans supplied and since I do not know them, have no benchmark. I also have a packet of londinium teves, Sweetshop and another which name I forget to try. Then it will be onto my own stuff and I hope by to be a little more experienced. Quite simply, when you drop the lever, the vibe pump kicks in and fills the group head. The 'play' is to dictate how much water the group takes in, which means that the shot can be pulled pump assisted or not, and this then allows you to vary the pressure and mimic the sort of shots different machines pull. This last bit is the thoughts of other bloggers I have read. I understand it but am going to learn a lot more before I feel able to dicuss it. that said, if I put a small amount of water in the group, taste, then increase the water, an the next and so on, can both see and taste one hell of a difference. it is my understanding, that if for example you take a bean that pulls a dark flow, by holding the lever in place, as in not letting it rise and do its job, you can maximise the extraction of the shot at that exact point. this can be seen by the fact the shor holds its colour. If you raise the lever and increase the flow, then the shot lightens.

Now, I do not know yet, if this is all a load of total codswallop! If it is, I shall have the good grace to say so!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi LeverAspirations,

welcome to our message board for your first post. I can answer your points with ease. I called the thread 'Londinium' simply because I know that there are several owners, and lots of would be owners on this forum who know I own one and would wonder what had happened and I presumed that by naming 'Londinium', then more people would be attracted to reading it than if I had named it "Bezzera Strega'.

*As someone interested in both machines, it strikes me as a little odd. *

*
*

Are you suggesting you have an interest in both machines, or myself? If you find it odd that I have an interest in both machines I do not see why that should appear as odd. I owned an L1 and now do not. Nothing odd in that. Things come and go every day. What is one mans meat is another mans poison. If that were not the case then we would all drive the same car etc etc.



LeverAspirations said:


> If no comparison was intended then why create a thread about your Strega called 'Londinium' where you refuse to discuss the machine in the thread's title?
> 
> As someone interested in both machines, it strikes me as a little odd.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

(they are not "vastly different lever machines with vastly different groups and at vastly different price points")

Yes they are, one machine is one third less less in cost, probably due to the difference in the group which again IS vastly different, there is only one commercial lever group manufacturer in the world, who make both of these groups and they are very different in price and construction. Fiorenzato make a lever machine with a commercial group for the the home

http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=fiorenzato.san.marco

but this is more expensive, but as that is not in your comparison criteria lets chuck that in the mix too and while we are at it many folk have a Kees van de western idrocompresso in the home!


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

As someone who is looking at purchasing a Londinium I, I would greatly appreciate knowing the rationale behind you moving it on.

The major appeal of the Londinium I to me is it's sheer simplicity - I'd hope that it turns out to a lifelong machine, with internals fixable by a reasonably competent plumber!

The Strega looks a wonderful machine as well, but the pump just throws in an extra complication (yes, I know the LI has a pump as well - but I presume that it's not working the same load so should last longer?)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi Vintage,

my understanding is that the vibe pump on the L1 is only used to draw water from the tanked version into the machine. If you go for the plumbed in version, then the pump is not needed as line pressure takes over. The Strega is a completely different beast with the vibe pump kicking in when you drop the lever and the pump forces water into the group head, and stops when either the group is full or if you raise the lever again.

I can explain my rationale for moving on, but as I would not wish to influence anyone else with what could be conceived as my point of view, then I cannot help further.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

vintagecigarman said:


> ...(yes, I know the LI has a pump as well - but I presume that it's not working the same load so should last longer?)


Mine doesn't!


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I totally respect that.

I am not, by nature, an early adopter, and like any product to be bedded-in and to hear the warts-and-all reviews before I commit to it. Everyone with a LI seems ecstatic about them (unless I'm missing something on other forums) so I was interested to hear from someone who isn't a complete convert.

Sadly, my kitchen configuration means that I'll have to make do with a tanked and pumped machine, for the time being at least.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

vintagecigarman said:


> Sadly, my kitchen configuration means that I'll have to make do with a tanked and pumped machine, for the time being at least.


My kitchen layout also meant I couldn't go for a plumbed in LI. The internal tank is pretty big - 3ltrs - so doesn't need refilling every five minutes. The vibe pump does make a bit of a noise when it kicks in to replenish the boiler but it doesn't bother me unduly.


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## LeverAspirations (Mar 29, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Hi LeverAspirations,
> 
> welcome to our message board for your first post. I can answer your points with ease. I called the thread 'Londinium' simply because I know that there are several owners, and lots of would be owners on this forum who know I own one and would wonder what had happened and I presumed that by naming 'Londinium', then more people would be attracted to reading it than if I had named it "Bezzera Strega'.


I was under the impression that the Strega was the more uncommon machine in the UK - it certainly seems to be a machine that's exciting interest.

The situation is the opposite over here - lots of Stregas, virtually no L1s, but a lot of interest in the latter.

Perhaps it's just that perspective or perhaps it's an English way of doing things.



dfk41;71149
[B said:


> As someone interested in both machines, it strikes me as a little odd. [/B]
> 
> *
> *
> ...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi LeverA, we English are odd at times! No, I was trying to steer the chat away from why I had changed my L1 to a Strega so that I would not appear as a dysfunctional, embittered person by trying to compare the two machines and then justify things.

I suspect both machines have their plus and minus points but having jumped ship, then I am in a difficult spot. I am only a short space of time into my Strega ownership and so far in, am loving it. as a fellow owner, can I ask if you have done anything to the drip tray? It is small and there is a button to cut out, but would appreciate seeing something someone else has done to their machine before I get the tin snips out!


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## LeverAspirations (Mar 29, 2013)

Sorry, I own a Bezzera, but not a Strega. The drip tray is voluminous and easily removed, so I don't feel the need to make any changes.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Just out of interest why do people think that the simplicity of a machine is better? I understand that if you are a traditional lever lover and want the quietness then you can plumb in and use line pressure. However lots of people will stil have a pump on their tanked version. The pump is used more on a Strega than on the L1 but not anywhere near as much on an E61. It is very rare for a pump to fail, and not expensive for a vibe pump to replace. I haven't heard any Rocket/Izzo/Expobar owners complain that they are concerned the pump may fail at some point in the future. Just strikes me as a very bizarre statement.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

forzajuve, most arguments are put forward by people who have no intention of buying the product, as justification!


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Well as previously mentioned I am very interested as will be making a full upgrade later on in the year. I will be following your progress with the witch with great interest. Seems to me to be something a bit special.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I have to admit after watching Rodney's video on the Strega I definitely want one!

Such epic control over the extraction! Such a wonderful machine.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

I bought the L1 without a pump, because I didn't want to hear the noise of the pump, it is nothing to do with simplicity, neither is it anything to do with reliability.

Indeed it is true to say that my choice presented a major problem that I had not anticipated...

Being in south-east London, I suffer from hardness that you can see suspended in a freshly poured glass of hard water from the tap. My previous systems took everything out, which isn't good either... I have now after a long study (Reiss and myself) arrived at something that is almost spot on, and I am hoping to make it right, when I have spent the current calcite filter.

...I could have had a pump, tank and a bockle of Volvic, and job done!









But as DFK is demonstrating at the moment, we sometimes go around the houses before we do what we consider to be the right thing.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> Just out of interest why do people think that the simplicity of a machine is better?


Don't think it's a case of simple being better but there is a principle (Occam's Razor) which kind of says, don't over elaborate unnecessarily. The principle behind lever machines is, by design, more simple than say, a dual boiler machine - not necessarily better - just different.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't think it's a case of simple being better but there is a principle (Occam's Razor) which kind of says, don't over elaborate unnecessarily. The principle behind lever machines is, by design, more simple than say, a dual boiler machine - not necessarily better - just different.


I appreciate that, but then the espresso machine would never have been invented


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> I appreciate that, but then the espresso machine would never have been invented


Or worse still, ended up becoming the uber useful George Forman grill.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

forzajuve said:


> Just out of interest why do people think that the simplicity of a machine is better? I understand that if you are a traditional lever lover and want the quietness then you can plumb in and use line pressure. However lots of people will stil have a pump on their tanked version. The pump is used more on a Strega than on the L1 but not anywhere near as much on an E61. It is very rare for a pump to fail, and not expensive for a vibe pump to replace. I haven't heard any Rocket/Izzo/Expobar owners complain that they are concerned the pump may fail at some point in the future. Just strikes me as a very bizarre statement.


Fair point. I wouldn't want to overstate the 'simplicity' issue, but there are stories (it's second-hand information, so I can't substantiate it) of a lot of failures with early versions of the Strega. There is an appeal in the basic elegance of the design of a lever group which has a temperature/pressure profile of its own (and which the E61 actually set out to emulate). As well as a pump, The Strega has heating elements in the group itself which either adds either more control and sophistication or unnecessary complexity to a classic design, depending on your point of view. I think Reiss's basic principle was to make a home machine which made coffee that tasted as good as that from the Bosco (it has, of course, the same group as a Bosco). The Strega is more of a hybrid design, and there is nothing wrong with that.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

So what if a Vibe pump packs up, they aren't exactly mega bucks to replace.

Playing devils advocate , on an e61 Vibe machine you can cut the pump and switch to line pressure ...and with a PID easily play with temperature ...oh and change brew pressure easily.

Horses for courses


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The thing I do not understand about the L1, and thats probably because I am not scientifically minded, but I do not see what it actually does. By that I mean it is a stock group head (although without doubt a top one) bolted to a smaller boiler. So, would one expect it to mimic the behavior of a Bosco or Speedster or other machines that share the same group? Has the L1 reinvented he wheel somewhere along the line?

Serious question by the way.......not knocking the product


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I know......after the grind off, lets have an espresso off similar to the wbc but without all the arty farty stuff, and have a judging panel allow people to bring their machines along, set them up and see who really comes out top


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I know......after the grind off, lets have an espresso off similar to the wbc but without all the arty farty stuff, and have a judging panel allow people to bring their machines along, set them up and see who really comes out top


Now that would be really interesting.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Is this another project for me then


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> I know......after the grind off, lets have an espresso off similar to the wbc but without all the arty farty stuff, and have a judging panel allow people to bring their machines along, set them up and see who really comes out top


Are we sure we don't want the art farty? At least the chance to call time surely!!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Someone better have a refractometer with them then , human taste buds are not to be trusted ; )


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> The thing I do not understand about the L1, and thats probably because I am not scientifically minded, but I do not see what it actually does. By that I mean it is a stock group head (although without doubt a top one) bolted to a smaller boiler. So, would one expect it to mimic the behavior of a Bosco or Speedster or other machines that share the same group? Has the L1 reinvented he wheel somewhere along the line?


That's precisely what it is - a top of the range commercial group on a domestic size boiler, just as most pump machines in this price range are commercial E61 groups bolted on to a smaller boiler. The output is very similar, I believe, to that from a Bosco or an Idrocompresso (not a Speedster - that's a pump machine) which have the same group. The open thermosiphon is a classic design but different from that of a Bosco (which is a modified dipper). Reiss has never claimed there is anything new about the technology, but a lot of thought has gone into putting the various bits together.

In answer to your question 'what does [the machine] actually do?' - it supplies water to the group at brew temperature + steam and hot water. This is where the task differs from a commercial machine which is designed to be left on all day and provide coffee continuously. Thermosiphons and heat exchangers use classic engineering principles - hot water rises, cold water sinks. There are a number of different classic designs and they tend to be based on controllng pressure rather than temperature (pressure is easier to measure accurately than temperature in a boiler and of course relates directly to pressure). PID/Dual Boiler designs use electronics and tend to measure temperature rather than pressure (and of course there are exceptions and hybrid designs).

When it comes to it, virtually all prosumer espresso machines are based on standard components - groups, pumps, control boxes, pressurestats, solenoid valves, taps - mostly made in Italy. The manufacturers put them togethe in a box with varying degrees of skill and care. Fracino, who make the Londinium in Birmingham, manufacture a surprising proportion of the components themselves (not the lever group, of course, nor the pump or control box).


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> Someone better have a refractometer with them then , human taste buds are not to be trusted ; )


Heaven forbid that we actually taste the coffee!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RoloD said:


> Heaven forbid that we actually taste the coffee!


Wheres the fun in that!?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

And after the machine off can we put the L1 defenders in a ring with the L1 challengers and just have a fight off!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Is this another project for me then


Coffeechap, if you are in any way serious about putting such a project together, I will buy you a bottle of single malt.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> And after the machine off can we put the L1 defenders in a ring with the L1 challengers and just have a fight off!


That is if anyone can see straight after some serious caffeine intake


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> And after the machine off can we put the L1 defenders in a ring with the L1 challengers and just have a fight off!


Definitely, so long as I can bring the top half of my group head to employ as a sledge hammer.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Coffeechap, if you are in any way serious about putting such a project together, I will buy you a bottle of single malt.


There are plans afoot for this already







Stay tuned! (for much later in the year though...)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Coffeechap, if you are in any way serious about putting such a project together, I will buy you a bottle of single malt.


Do I get o choose the single malt?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> And after the machine off can we put the L1 defenders in a ring with the L1 challengers and just have a fight off!


There aren't really LI challengers and defenders.

Just those who have tasted coffee from it and those who haven't.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

RoloD said:


> There aren't really LI challengers and defenders.
> 
> Just those who have tasted coffee from it and those who haven't.


Ha ha having read the threads thoroughly over the last week I beg to differ!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Do I get o choose the single malt?


Of course but there may have to be some age restrictions! One of my favourites is Glenfarclas 15yr old which has one review, 'goes down singing hymns'. Can recommend that for sure!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> Ha ha having read the threads thoroughly over the last week I beg to differ!


OK, I'll rephrase that.

There aren't really LI challengers and defenders.

Just those who have tasted coffee from it without using a Scace device and those who haven't.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RoloD, do you too find using a Scace device on LI produces a bitter after taste??


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The Systemic Kid said:


> RoloD, do you too find using a Scace device on LI produces a bitter after taste??


I wouldn't know.

I no longer drink coffee. I prefer just taking measurements, then imagining what the coffee might taste like.

Saves a fortune in beans.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

RoloD said:


> I wouldn't know.
> 
> I no longer drink coffee. I prefer just taking measurements, then imagining what the coffee might taste like.
> 
> Saves a fortune in beans.


Brilliant! Existentialism as applied to coffee - really like that!


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

After the grind off and espresso-off everyone's bowels will be in a terrible state.

I know, why don't we all congregate with our best and most favourite bog rolls and have a wipe-off!


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

RoloD said:


> I wouldn't know.
> 
> I no longer drink coffee. I prefer just taking measurements, then imagining what the coffee might taste like.
> 
> Saves a fortune in beans.


God forbid anyone try to verify whether a manufacturer is telling the truth about the machine they sell or making it up for marketing spin.


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## Pdalowsky (Dec 31, 2012)

reading this thread is like deciphering chinese.

but i think i understand the concept of a 'whip it out' contest


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## chopinhauer (Apr 5, 2013)

Hell, I'm new here and trying to get up to the magic two posts threshold. One to go.

Seriously, I'm still wondering what this thread is about. It is amusing, however. It begins with a discussion of the Strega. Is called Londiniuum, and refuses to compare the two in any fruitful way under the premise that they are chalk and cheese (when really they are two varieties of cheddar).

For what it's worth I'm a Cremina guy. I know, terribly unfashionable since Olympia jacked up the prices of the new machines into the stratosphere. But I'm interested in this new penchant for big spring levers in the kitchen: Pompei, Bosco, Achille, Londinium and Strega in order of descending size (yes, I consider a machine as deep as the L1 to be bigger than the Strega). They all give a new twist to idea of "domestic lever machine"; one that makes the thinking behind machines like the Cremina, MCal, PV Lusso et al seem quaint. They also make huge claims to superiority of the espresso produced; especially by their new owners. (Though I do know someone in Oz who still prefers the espresso from his Cremina to his Achille. No cognitive dissonance there).


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

chopinhauer said:


> For what it's worth I'm a Cremina guy. I know, terribly unfashionable since Olympia jacked up the prices of the new machines into the stratosphere. But I'm interested in this new penchant for big spring levers in the kitchen: Pompei, Bosco, Achille, Londinium and Strega in order of descending size (yes, I consider a machine as deep as the L1 to be bigger than the Strega). They all give a new twist to idea of "domestic lever machine"; one that makes the thinking behind machines like the Cremina, MCal, PV Lusso et al seem quaint. They also make huge claims to superiority of the espresso produced; especially by their new owners.


 I had a Cremina prior to the LI. It's a fantastic little machine even though the new price is now ludicrous (Almost £1000 more than a Londinium). Does the LI make better coffee? My answer would be 'sometimes'.

The advantage of the Londinium -

1) Consistency of extraction. The spring does the work, not your hand, so the pressure exerted is the same every time.

2) Consistency of temperature. Despite what you may have read elsewhere, you can leave the LI all day and it won't overheat. The Cremina will get hotter after two or three shots.

3) Steam power. The LI has awesome steam power. And hot water.

4) Water fill. You can plumb the LI in, but even if you don't, you can top up the reservoir whenever you want. Filling up the Cremina when it is hot is like opening the radiator cap on a hot car.

5) Size of shot. Hard to get a full double shot from a Cremina.

6) More flavour. I believe you do get a wider spectrum of flavours from a commercial lever group. But that's not to imply you don't get great espresso from a Cremina.

Advantages of the Cremina -

1) Wonderfully compact.

2) Since it is a manual lever, to an extent you can adjust the pressure of delivery so you are more involved in the extraction process.

3) There is a certain sensual pleasure in a manual lever. And the silence of a truly pump-less machine.

4) The understated simplicity of a Cremina has a charm of its own. There is nothing ostentatious about it.

I was very fond of my Cremina, but the reasons above present why I think the LI is a better machine. I sold my 1974 Cremina for £825. At that price I think it is a serious machine to consider (because of its simplicity, it is one of the very few machines of that vintage that could be considered to be working as 'good as new'). New, at over three times that price, it seems only appropriate for very rich people with very small kitchens.

I agree that it would be interesting to compare the Strega to the Londinium, but the only person I know who has experienced both first hand does not wish to do that, as is his right. Every other report is going to be biased by ownership. Some of the Strega/Achille defenders on another forum were actually sales agents for those machine, which muddied the waters.

I was so fond of my Cremina, I made a video tribute to it:


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

hey chopinhauer, welcome. I started the thread and what I really wanted to avoid, was a why did you swop and what makes your Strega better than an L1 type thread. there are several L1 ownes on here and only me as a Strega, hence my initial comments. I am quite happy to compare the two machines if people want to, but not to try and see whose machine is better because that is subjective opinion and all that will happen is he with the biggest collective mouth will win!

The L1 is around £390 dearer if that makes a difference, although if you opt for the Luxe model that leaps to £960. The machines are both shiney and have levers, and it stops about there really. They both make coffee but using different methods and both can produce excellent shots. If we are talking comparatives, then the L1 is like a beautiful girl, who ticks all the boxes you could ever possibly want, but you take her to bed in the hope that she will be a really wild tiger. The Strega on the other hand, is the same girls sister, but when you take her to bed you get a real dirty woman in stockings, suspenders and red finger nails.

Again, I am not knocking the L1. Plenty of German cars are sold on reliability etc and the L1 as you read from its followers, produces shot after shot of top quality. The Strega though, allows you to play with the parameters in a way that the L1 simply cannot. Because a vibe pump is used to fill the group head when you lower the lever, then you have options of how much bar pressure to use on the shot or how much spring pressure.

I am not saying this is a valid reason to buy one over an L1, but I am saying that in life, I always like to build flexibility into anything that I touch.

So, theres a starting point if anyone wants to take it up!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi Chopinhauer. We Brits do seem to have a penchant for understatement and possiblly double entendre, don't we? Whenever a new machine is released and especially if it is proclaimed to be near to or *the* Holy Grail, questions and challenges about such claims will rightly follow. As you rightly point out, having shelled out an arm an a leg on whatever machine floats our boat, we tend to get a bit precious - even defensive at any criticism perceived or otherwise. DK41 is in a unique position having first owned a Londinium and then moved on to a Strega which gives him an opportunity to compare and contrast. Like the nod to Festinger by the way - much evidence on the forum to back up his theories.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Perhaps, David, we could set up a coffee love nest where Londinium owners could have a dirty weekend with the tarty Strega before returning to their faithful Londinium? Having the two sisters in the same room would be a bit too much to cope with.


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## LeverAspirations (Mar 29, 2013)

And they say you Brits are reserved.

Bloody hell, I'd get banned from my antipodean fora for that kind of talk!

I've had a few shots from a Strega, some pulled by myself, with beans I didn't care for. It still made exceptional coffee. It's fair to say it got me interested in levers.

There's just been a rather over the top and transparently malicious 'review' of the L1 on an Australian forum.

It's had the opposite of the intended effect - the L1 is now appealing to me.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you have pulled shots on the Strega, then go and try an L1. I do not think anyone who has tried one, will say it is not quite capable of pulling good shot after good shot. I never base any decision on some other blokes ramblings!


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## LeverAspirations (Mar 29, 2013)

Too many compound negatives in that last sentence! Could you clarify please?

There's no opportunity to try an L1 where I am.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Clearly he has said the L1 is capable of pulling good shot after good shot, but try it for yourself.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

hey lever aspirations, thanks for alerting me to that austrailan forum where someone is not happy with his L1. Seems a shame but on reading it I did not find it malicious (other than the odd suggestion it made crap coffee), so much as revealing quality control issues. I am sure Londinium will have put this right by now, and I am glad you have not been put off the owners experience yourself.


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## LeverAspirations (Mar 29, 2013)

It only seems benign if you're not a regular there.


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## Pdalowsky (Dec 31, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The L1 is around £390 dearer if that makes a difference, although if you opt for the Luxe model that leaps to £960. The machines are both shiney and have levers, and it stops about there really. They both make coffee but using different methods and both can produce excellent shots. If we are talking comparatives, then the L1 is like a beautiful girl, who ticks all the boxes you could ever possibly want, but you take her to bed in the hope that she will be a really wild tiger. The Strega on the other hand, is the same girls sister, but when you take her to bed you get a real dirty woman in stockings, suspenders and red finger nails.
> 
> So, theres a starting point if anyone wants to take it up!


Perfect !!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> . The Strega on the other hand, is the same girls sister, but when you take her to bed you get a real dirty woman in stockings, suspenders and red finger nails.


But does she blow hot and cold


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> But does she blow hot and cold


Yes, and at the same time........


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm not sure about other members on this forum but, as much as I like the Londinium I, I'm glad to say I'm not actually having sex with it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rolo, come on..own up, every time you slide your hand around that lever, don't tell us you do not close your eyes and just slightly change your breathing pattern............


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

dfk41 - I think there are some fantasies you should keep to yourself....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What, ones concerning you and your Londinium.......I agree......LOL. Ok, no more fantasy stuff, for the time being!


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## chopinhauer (Apr 5, 2013)

I'm liking this forum already. I doubt one can talk of one's sexual passion for one's machine on home-barista, and the Oz owners of coffeesnobs would report you report you to the police. Reading this stuff makes me feel that I am not as abnormal as I have been made to believe.

And speaking about the Oz forum, as someone her has already noted their discussion of the Londinium has been verging on unethical. Since one of the main commercial sponsors is now committed to the Achille they unashamedly defame the L1 (forgetting of course that the Achille has as many if not more teething problems as the LI). It almost makes me want to buy an L1 to spite them (and my wife too, who is already sick of my coffee gear cluttering up what she calls her kitchen).


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

chopinhauer said:


> And speaking about the Oz forum, as someone her has already noted their discussion of the Londinium has been verging on unethical. Since one of the main commercial sponsors is now committed to the Achille they unashamedly defame the L1 (forgetting of course that the Achille has as many if not more teething problems as the LI). It almost makes me want to buy an L1 to spite them (and my wife too, who is already sick of my coffee gear cluttering up what she calls her kitchen).


It's a great shame when supposed 'experts' use their position and influence, at times, to try and mislead us open minded folk with hidden agendas. They pose, or are happy to be viewed, as coffee sages we turn to for advice and/or opinion. But to be held in such esteem requires the highest standards of neutrality and anti-bias - and not to behave like tin gods.

Fora like CoffeeForum et al are great places to seek information and advice - I did before making up my mind to go for a lever. I have no problem with people posting their *opinions* positive or otherwise but when they step over the line and use their position of respect and reverence to post biased opinion dressed up as fact, well, it's just not cricket!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Chaps, I frequent Coffee Snobs from time to time. I am replicating a short message I have just posted there, in response to the L1 review.

Talk _Coffee, you are so wrong. The issue here, which has not yet been stated will be now. This forum is commercially sponsored. The business model Londinium follow, means that there is no middle man, therefore no profit for a re-seller. In the same way that the first thing a cuckoo does when it hatches, of getting rid of the competition, this review has effectively tried to do the same. Except for one thing. It has presumed that all of its readers will believe it, hook line and sinker.

I am not suggesting that the machine did not turn up with all or some of the faults mentioned. Speaking purely for myself, even allowing for the distance involved two things could have happened. Either the machine is returned for a refund, or kept and fixed. Instead, we are led to believe, that the owner decides to fore go the purchase price then shove it in a box in a corner of the room where it is magically forgotten about until the reviewer appears and hey, a savage, hatchet job of a review is aired.....and with what purpose I wonder. To ensure any prospective purchasers are put off and ushered towards equipment the forum sponsors sell.

What really confirms this nonsense, is that 2 experienced espresso enthusiasts cannot make a decent shot from the machine! What does that say about the rest of the users in the world. Are they unlucky or is just you guys.

I am not going to suggest that the L1 has not had teething problems, mainly centered around distribution. Can the Achille hold its hand up and say it was fault free? Are we also seriously suggesting that the machine received in this review is representative of the build quality going around the world. Come on guys, wake up and smell the coffee as they say. Personally, I find it offensive to myself as a human being, that you really expect anyone but the hardened enthusiast to believe this review.

I am posting this comment on other forums, as I fully expect it to be deleted and or kicked off the forum for daring to say what i Have....que sera sera!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The hostility towards the Londinium on the CoffeeSnobs is quite extraordinary - is it some Oz/Kiwi thing? It actually started before the Londinium was actually on sale when people were making jokes about how ugly it was. The obvious explanation for this that other members of the forum were actually selling competing machines and, in Australia, there is a very high mark-up (compare the prices to UK prices - there's a big difference) and they had a lot to lose.

Of course machines shouldn't be leaky or dented when they arrive - those are legitimate complaints, but that doesn't mean the machine is badly designed or broken, and to tighten up a leaky pipe you just need a spanner (OK, ideally you shouldn't have to do that, but it ain't the end of the world). Read what the importer had to do the Achille - basically rebuild it before they could sell it - any problems the LI has pale in comparison. But that, of course, was presented as an argument why you should buy machines through a local importer rather than directly from the manufacturer - well, buying direct of course is much much cheaper.

I think the real problem is that Reiss had been so open and proud about the development of the machine he has laid himself open to criticism; he was putting himself on the line in the way that no other manufacturer was. As far as I'm concerned, the machine I have does exactly what it is supposed to do. If I have complaints they are minor and a matter of preference - I would prefer rotary rather than toggle taps, the hot water spout is pretty but sprays around a bit too much - but as far as I am concerned, for me (and probably 95% of the other LI owners) the machine does exactly what is supposed to do.

It has been implied by another forum member that because I always seem to defend the LI I have some connection with the company - I haven't; I know Reiss, but only because I bought a machine from him. When commercial interests intrude upon a forum I think it is more than 'verging on the unethical' - it is unethical.


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## espressotime (Apr 6, 2013)

I hope Londinium gets their quality control in order.Machines with dents etc shouldn't be allowed to leave the plant.

A bad rep is easily earned and it would be a shame if that happened to the L1.

I happen to have owned a few Ponte Vecchio's.Great machines as a concept.But they have big problems in sending out machines that are straight or not damaged in some way.A pitty cause I love those machines.Would be sad if that happened to Londinium.


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