# I have no idea what I'm doing and nothing makes sense anymore.



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ok maybe it's a dramatic title.

Firstly I'm happy with the coffee I'm producing. If I taste bad things I can tweak and get away from them easily enough. Thing is I'm not sure why the things I do work and that's what this is about.

I've been trying some coffees recently pulled over 60 seconds at a 1:3 ratio and in less time and a different profile to a 1:2 ratio or a touch above.

Long profile is: Pre-infuse slowly to 2 bar over 13-15 seconds, slowly rise over 15 seconds to 9 bar, slowly decline to 6 bar until a 1:3 ratio. Shot takes about 60 seconds.

Short profile: Pre-infuse at 2 bar for 15 seconds, rapidly up to 9 held for 5 seconds and slowly down to 6 for a 1:2 ratio (or a touch more) in about 40 seconds. i.e 18:40 in 40 seconds.

Grind is unchanged for these two profiles.

I've found all the beans I've tried this with these profiles have been very good aside from a darker roast which was bitter (but more on that later).

Cartwheel LSOL:

Long profile: a very slight boozy note, soft fruity acidity, milk chocolate, smooth and creamy. Flavours integrated and balanced
Short profile: Fruity acidity, milk chocolate and buttery mouth feel. Intense. Flavours pretty much the same buy more 'layered'.

Rocko Mountain from CC:

Long profile: subtle strawberry, peaches and milk chocolate, very integrated and balanced again.
Short profile: boozy strawberry hit chocolate finish.

Brazil Mahogany roast blend from CC:

Long profile: dark toffee and honey, bitter chocolate.
Short profile: Bitter. Ashy. Burned sugar.

The Brazil one confuses me. No matter what I do with ratio and temperature if I pull the shot at 9 bar at any point I get a lot of bitterness. The only way around it is to coarsen the grind so much that the shot almost gushes through in about 25 seconds and doesn't really taste of anything. That IS of course unless I pull the shot for 60 seconds and increase the ratio! This makes absolutely no sense to me as I should surely be getting more bitterness not less at a longer ratio and finer grind.

With the Brazilian I altered the long profile by limiting it to a max of 7 bar and the bitterness was much reduced. At 6 bar it's gone both at a 1:3 and 1:2 ratio with both profiles. Should also note I tried a 1:1.5 ratio with no real improvement and a straight 9 bar ordinary extraction with equally disappointing results.

So what is going on here?

People say a shorter shot is good for the light roasts, which means coarsening grind. That drops extraction at the same ratio? With both of these profiles am I increasing extraction compared to a standard straight 9 bar shot (1:2) after pre-infusion? Why does the Brazilian behave as it does and how would I tweak things without limiting pressure, just out of curiosity? Is there an equivalence to limiting pressure to 6 bar -- coarsening grind seems close but extraction seems so low there's not really any flavour, it's just a smooth rich shot all about body and mouthfeel. Why does the same grind and an extra 20 seconds to the shot time not really alter flavour much, just seems to dilute? I guess I could test this by adding water to a short profile shot...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

My guess is that if the coffee is extracting OK at 1:2, pulling 1:3 isn't a long enough ratio to extract significantly more.

As to why the Brazillian might be preferable at 1:3 and a lower pressure, it's possible that, being on the lower side of solubility, you're only just getting into the normal range of extraction with the shorter shot & on the lower side of normal you can get bitter, charred, carbony flavours that dissipate as you extract more? Also, even at the same burr gap, it might grind up a little finer & the higher pressure could be forcing more silt into the cup, to the point where it''s detrimental to flavour?

I don't think that a shorter ratio is good for lighter roasts. If we are to believe lighter roasts are less soluble than darker (well past 2nd crack), you want more water pushed through the puck to normalise extraction. But at a similar extraction & concentration, the lighter roasts tend to be less intense, with less mouthfeel, so folk go shorter to get a bolder, thicker shot.


----------



## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

I do not profess to have the technical no how of the above, but when I get in a muddle as described, using a La Pav with an Edesia bottomless pf I drop the weight 1gm (sometimes down to 14gm) and often go a couple of clicks coarser with the Mazzer SJ.

My starting point with the pf is 16gm and a dial setting of 8.5 on the SJ. The 'sweet spot' occurs between 7.8 and 9. The burrs have done less than 100kg.


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't agree with @MWJB on the differences between ratios of 2 and 3 with a fixed time. It's an area that I always look at when trying a new bean. EY% may not change but taste can. I'd put that down to different dilutions of the various constituents that cause the taste. I have found beans that need 4 but not fresh roasted.

When tuning a new bean I might set the grinder too fine and 30sec gives a rather short shot so I extend to save wasting the beans. 5 secs not that much different to where I would tune to but 10secs rather different and might go anyway as far as taste goes. MM is very likely to loose it's spice and just provide a taste. On that one some might say restrict the water that goes through it to cut back the spice. That adds more sugary taste than the longer time. Hard to explain but the long time is different in other respects.

Adding preinfusion is interesting. I always think of those that time 25 - 30sec from flow. On that basis I use 24 / a bit less. My current 6 secs just about wets out the entire base of the filter basket. Flow starts when the pressure swings up.

A light roast I used recently, first one took longer to flow. Jury out on that one as I ran out beans. Just to try something different I loaded the grinds into the basket a different way. Green apple, black current, cocoa went entirely different. Cocoa became dominant. Ratio shifted a bit but normal grinds prep shifted cocoa to the background.

I don't play with infusion anywhere near as much as I could. It just adds too many variables.  However things are getting a bit boringly stable.

John

-


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I don't agree with @MWJB on the differences between ratios of 2 and 3 with a fixed time. It's an area that I always look at when trying a new bean. EY% may not change but taste can. I'd put that down to different dilutions of the various constituents that cause the taste. I have found beans that need 4 but not fresh roasted.


 I didn't say anything about a fixed time, nor did I say that EY wouldn't change, just that if the EY was just in/below the ball-park at 1:2, going 1:3 at the same grind wouldn't be significantly higher, or push you over. This is because as you get nearer to highest practical EY, the shot starts to dilute faster than the rate of extraction.

Agree, the taste will change, the change in taste was obvious & stated in Rob1's post. At a similar extraction a 1:3 shot will be about 2/3 the concentration of the 1:2, that's also noticeable.

EY is brew efficiency, taste is taste. They dovetail but are not the same thing & you can get off tastes at any EY because EY is only really useful in the absence of other significant malfunctions.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

MWJB said:


> As to why the Brazillian might be preferable at 1:3 and a lower pressure, it's possible that, being on the lower side of solubility, you're only just getting into the normal range of extraction with the shorter shot & on the lower side of normal you can get bitter, charred, carbony flavours that dissipate as you extract more? Also, even at the same burr gap, it might grind up a little finer & the higher pressure could be forcing more silt into the cup, to the point where it''s detrimental to flavour?


 Well it's quite a dark roast compared to the lighter roasts of Rocko mountain and whatever Cartwheel is...I've tried a finer grind and higher temps and the bitterness gets worse. I tried a finer grind with the Rocko mountain today and the flavours were pushing towards over-extraction. Yet to try the Brazillian again but higher temps, finer grinds and higher pressures seemed to make it worse.. I think the silt in the cup might be a good point. I might finally try that filter paper trick to see what happens.


----------



## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> Well it's quite a dark roast compared to the lighter roasts of Rocko mountain and whatever Cartwheel is...I've tried a finer grind and higher temps and the bitterness gets worse. I tried a finer grind with the Rocko mountain today and the flavours were pushing towards over-extraction. Yet to try the Brazillian again but higher temps, finer grinds and higher pressures seemed to make it worse.. I think the silt in the cup might be a good point. I might finally try that filter paper trick to see what happens.


 Have you tried dropping the temp? 
I find the darker Brazilian roasts I have tasted best extracted at the lowest temp my machine does, around 88-89.

Oh in addition I would definitely try the filter paper. I am now almost exclusively using it, particularly with darker roasts to reduce the fines clogging the basket and reduce the silt in the cup.


----------

