# Sage Barista Express Newbie



## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Hi coffee lovers










.

I bought a new machine over the weekend, and I am having troubles trying to get the right balance of coffee vs a good crema.

I have used two bags of Starbucks medium roast beans with a production date of no longer than 4 months, I've tried changing the grinding settings and the grind amounts but can't get the pressure on the machine to stay at 12 o clock.

I'm using the auto grind function, because it becomes a mountain and starts making a mess.

I'm probably doing something wrong here, don't really want to return the machine cause I know it's me. Wondering if anyone can help me!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeeman-ly said:


> Hi coffee lovers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Buy better coffee. That will likely be past its best , stale coffee anti gonna give you good crema

4months told is stale !!!!

Ignore the pressure

you should be weighing the dose ground into the pf for starters


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Agreed. Please do not buy Starbucks or Costa beans and those from a supermarket. Basically anything that has been roasted more than 2 weeks prior to when you buy them or has no roast date steer away from. You can see many online bean sellors on the beans section of the Forum or buy from a local cafe. If you are pushed to buy supermarket the only one that works ok for me has been Lavazza Rosa.

I remember the first time i got mine and i bought tesco beans to master the art. It gushed espresso at every grind setting. I couldn't get any sort of syrupy flow


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Which Starbucks beans ?

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Which Starbucks beans ?
> 
> John
> 
> -










Bit brief that. I had 2 different bags of them a few weeks go and didn't have any problems at all brewing with them. Taste of one wasn't tooooo bad. Not something I would buy but we were given them.

Also should have asked which basket and what type, do you have scales.

John

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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Great thanks for that, I managed to make a good cuppa this morning but as you guys have said probably no where near the real experience as fresh beans.

Turns out I had to put way more coffee into the pf in order to get the pressure at 12 o clock.

I'm always using doubles as I find singles far too weak, but then sometimes the doubles are a tad strong.

I am using two espresso cups to measure out 30 ml each of which I'm pouring into a tall glass (as it doesn't fit under the maxhine) but what I get is half of the crema is essentially sitting inside the espresso cups.


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

ajohn said:


> Bit brief that. I had 2 different bags of them a few weeks go and didn't have any problems at all brewing with them. Taste of one wasn't tooooo bad. Not something I would buy but we were given them.
> 
> Also should have asked which basket and what type, do you have scales.
> 
> ...


It is Starbucks Columbian medium roast. In a brown packet.


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

coffeeman-ly said:


> Great thanks for that, I managed to make a good cuppa this morning but as you guys have said probably no where near the real experience as fresh beans.
> 
> Turns out I had to put way more coffee into the pf in order to get the pressure at 12 o clock.
> 
> ...


How long is your 60ml shot taking to extract?


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

M_H_S said:


> How long is your 60ml shot taking to extract?


Not long, probably 18-20 seconds? Not really timed it. Is there an optimum?


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Yes thats too quick. It should be nearer 30 and even over is fine.

More than the pressure guage what matters is the speed of flow and thickness of espresso. It should be like honey and gooey for some beans. Regardless it should be a thin narrow stream.

What number are you on the grind size. Can you go finer.

As for dosage you can weigh around 17 or 18g or enough in the double basket for the silver part of the tamper to be not visible.

Try the above with fresh beans and let us know.


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

coffeeman-ly said:


> Not long, probably 18-20 seconds? Not really timed it. Is there an optimum?


Btw its 20 secs from when you press the button or when espresso begins to hit the cup? My suggested timing is for the latter. Around 30 secs or more from whe the espresso lands in the cup.


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Yeah, from when I press the double it's around 20 seconds? Is there a way I can make it stay on longer or is it based on a double being 60ml and when it reaches that, it stops?

Okay, sure I can try and aim for that. My grind setting is on number 4 with the grind amount at 2-3 o clock so it doesn't go all over the place, I try and flatten it down a little bit then hold it on until a mountain forms, I'll have to weight it to find out exactly how many grams that is.

My other question was about the espresso cups, it leaves some crema in there when pouring the coffee to a larger cup, what would be best? Buy smaller cups that'll fit under so that all the crema is in the cup?


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Seems like you need to reduce the grind size to make the extraction longer.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It sounds like you may benefit from setting the fill with the razor tool. Then normally the result from that would be weighed and used as a basis for the dose. It gets it pretty close so in terms of grams not much more or less can be used. Some people have problems with the puck spinning when the tool is used. I didn't maybe I tamp harder. If too little the puck tends to be rather wet at some point. If too much very hard to knock out and coffee may be weaker than it could be. Beans vary though so this is just a guide.

The grinder is good at producing huge heaps of grounds some of which fall out. If that's a problem set the timer for a 1/2 dose and tap them down in between. You will need to check the weight of the dose though. I found that the timer needed very small twitches of the knob regularly initially then maybe once or twice a week. 1kg 0.1g scales with a decent sized platform are best for checking the dose weight when it's in the portafilter.

The mug clearance in Sage machines is about as good as it gets. I had to tilt mine a bit to get them under the spouts on the portafilter and no room to weigh the dose in. That can be checked on the same scales off the machine so not much of a problem. There are actually a number of ratios that might produce a suitable taste not just 1 to 2 grams in to grams out. Shot time can be varied as well but 30 sec is the norm but might be varied between say 20 and 40. It's all about taste and what suites the drinker. It's not a bad idea to get the taste the bean should have at least initially.

Sage's instructions are no good for the single. You'll find that you need to grind finer and the pressure gauge will show much higher pressures. Perhaps the best thing to do is to run a cleaning cycle and see where the gauge goes. The single may need a grind that gets it to go fractionally short of that. You can also grind to get it to go higher when the double is used but if that high the coffee will probably be too strong.

When and if you get to the pucks sticking to the shower screen stage a touch more coffee will fix that. About 0.2g more on the single.

John

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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

M_H_S said:


> Seems like you need to reduce the grind size to make the extraction longer.


Ok will try this. When you say reduce grind size, do you mean something more coarse? I tried the grind size 7 and when I took the pf out, seemed like all the water hasn't extracted from the coffee grounds.


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

No i meant finer. So 3 then 2.


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

M_H_S said:


> No i meant finer. So 3 then 2.


Ah gotcha.

Thanks.

Will report back with some success. Looking forward to it!


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Did you manage to get fresh beans?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

coffeeman-ly said:


> Ok will try this. When you say reduce grind size, do you mean something more coarse? I tried the grind size 7 and when I took the pf out, seemed like all the water hasn't extracted from the coffee grounds.


Probably means that you aren't putting enough coffee in. Grinding very fine can also result in a light film of water remaining on the puck. Not always the case but often more coffee and a coarser grind will give a better result.

The main difference you are likely to notice if you purchased fresh roasted beans of the same type as you have from Starbucks is taste and grinder setting. Taste characteristics are probably going to be more as the should be and the grinder could go either way for the same sized shot / time. Coarser or finer. The fact that supermarket beans always cause a gusher is a complete and utter myth. Some may but yours aren't exactly supermarket beans. Biggest problem with those usually is taste but not always.

Grind range on mine was from 10 down to 6. The 10 worked well with a particular bean in a basket you don't have so more usually 6 to 8. Not all grinders will be the same though so in some respects comparing numbers is meaningless.

John

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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Great.

No I haven't tried fresh beans, not exactly sure where I can get them and currently at work at the moment. So I guess I'll need to order some online in which they'll take a couple of days.

I'll try grinding it finer and I'll put more coffee in the puck. And I'll try a coarser grind with the same amount of grams and see if there is any difference.

Maybe I can post some pictures of my result later on today or tomorrow.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

If you had your location we could point you to someone local maybe.


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Jony said:


> If you had your location we could point you to someone local maybe.


I live in Milton Keynes.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeeman-ly said:


> Great.
> 
> No I haven't tried fresh beans, not exactly sure where I can get them and currently at work at the moment. So I guess I'll need to order some online in which they'll take a couple of days.
> 
> ...


When ordering freshly roasted beans, it's best to leaver them to rest for a week or so post roast to let them settle down a bit.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I bought 2 packs of the starbucks beans a few weeks ago. One in a silver package and the other in an orangey brown. Neither caused any brewing problems. Silver not my style of coffee taste. Other not too bad. I had hoped to get some of the ones they actually use but they seem to have stopped doing that. Why buy - curiosity. They aren't a cheap option.

When running a grinder in a bit - I always tune a shot while I have some left and use the cheapest I can get my hands on.

Tesco standard. Brewed ok but odd taste. My brother uses it in an aeropress, tastes ok but rather weak to me. I suspect this is often the problem. Not suitable for espresso.

Aldi - brewed ok but terrible background taste much like tesco only more of it.

Lidi espresso - brewed ok and not that bad really. Lacked the odd taste. I bought 2 other varieties off them recently - curiosity - haven't ground any yet.

Whittard's - my wife went on a 3 day hen party and came back with 2 bags from them. Brew ok and showed the correct taste characteristics as well. Rather expensive.

One I did have problems with, had to accept a high ratio

https://www.bettys.co.uk/jamaica-blue-mountain

250g bought for me as a birthday present. Curios aspect - taste was as expected. I have bought them fresh roasted. There was no point going below 4 with these as it didn't make any difference.







I had the impression I could pull 300ml shots with it.

Lastly to the OP. If you don't get the dose reasonably correct your likely to run round in circles what ever you do or buy. New machine needing a setting of 2 - I find that surprising unless some one has been fiddling with the burr settings. Sage's suggest starting at a setting of 8. When playing with that the razor tool is handy again as the weight needed will vary with the setting of the grinder. The other reason they provide it is down to the difficulty of setting the timer correctly. It takes time but can be done, main problem is that it needs rather tiny adjustments when close to being correct. It's also possible to weigh beans into the hopper and grind until all are used up. It works pretty well once the grinder has settled down and makes sense too as when the setting is changed the most of the grinds from the previous setting will have gone. With the hopper on and large changes it's best to waste a couple of grams to clear the previous grinds.








I ran round in circles when I bought mine. Lots of preground initially as we had it. We eventually noticed that the tamper went in a certain distance when things were ok - they have built the razor into that as well after a fashion. Then I started using fresh roasted and found the fill height by trial and error. Wasted a lot of coffee. One of the problems is that the quantity of grinds has a similar effect to adjusting the grinder especially if it way out.

John

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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

So I tried it again this morning. Changed my coatse setting to 8 and it measured 18 grams exactly which was good.

However even though I am not using fresh beans, I thought I would time the extraction process. I think I was a bit optimistic yesterday saying it took 20. It actually took 8 seconds. I bought some bathroom scales and I know how much pressure is 17kg.

On another note, the needle didn't reach the 'espresso range' so this probably needs it at grind size 3 in order for it to get to that point. However made my girlfriend a coffee on that grind size and still took 8 seconds.

Is it a programmable option I need to change?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeeman-ly said:


> So I tried it again this morning. Changed my coatse setting to 8 and it measured 18 grams exactly which was good.
> 
> However even though I am not using fresh beans, I thought I would time the extraction process. I think I was a bit optimistic yesterday saying it took 20. It actually took 8 seconds. I bought some bathroom scales and I know how much pressure is 17kg.
> 
> ...


You need to grind finer.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> You need to grind finer.


It certainly does sound like you need to but then switching to setting 3 and getting the same thing again doesn't make sense. It may pay to see what fresh roasted do. There is always the possibility that I have been lucky with the none fresh roasted I have bought other than the 1 pack I mentioned. All I do when buying is look at the use by date. On the other hand this is the symptom my BE currently has. I can change the setting but in practice it wont go lower than a setting of 10. This seems to relate to a problem I took no notice of when I bought the machine - new - The adjustment went rather stiff at 4, no problem as I didn't need to use it that fine. That stiffness has gone now. It went after moving the adjustment several times from min to max when the grinder was clean and empty. This appears to have caused the problem. Also before cleaning this was the first time I had used it set to 10.

The way these grinders should be used, and any other really is in this case start at 8, do a shot, if it needs to go finer go to 7, if that needs to be finer go to 6 etc. In other words a small change each time or have the grinder running when the change is made. Other than very early on I have always used mine like that and my other grinders. If it isn't done this way the adjustment is trying to crush grinds left from the previous setting. Some makers state always have it running when any adjustment is made. Sage don't mention this at all but ask about it when a fault is reported.







Now I know mine is definitely doing this I need to report the fault again. I've been stupidly lax so far but will at some point.

It's pretty easy to check the actual burr setting. The manual shows how to remove the outer burr. It's done by pulling up a "wire handle" and twisting that. The "handle" should be next to a red dot on one side of it. That's the default setting and it can be adjusted but that's intended to account for burr wear. It can be checked without removing it.

If you have bought a used machine it might be worth delving into this area a bit more. Wear shouldn't cause any burr problems at all for lots of kg's of beans and I do mean lots.

John

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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

John,

My machine is brand new, bought it from John Lewis on Monday and gone through almost 3 bags of Starbucks beans that have been roasted around the 2-3 month mark. (I mentioned 4 in OP as a buffer).

The grind settings I understand, small adjustments, but likewise the fact that I switched from Grind 8 (which made the needle go to 8 o clock (under pfessure)) and lasted for 8 seconds. Then switching to grind 3 (12 o clock) and also lasted for 8 seconds seems abit strange. I am not sure why the water is just passing through quickly. I can grind it to two or three, but based on the above I would expect the logic to have too much pressure? As 8 resulted in underpressure. 3 resulted at 12 o clock and surly 1 would mean over pressure?

I'm going back into JL tonight to ask the Sage bloke how my coffee behaves like the above, a bloke at work has the same machine he was the one that convinced me to buy, he has the Starbucks beans and he says it's perfect for him, his extraction is much more but he buys slightly different beans than to me.

Can't see it being the machine that has an issue as the water just pours of the ground coffee.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

They do produce a few duff machines of all types - or so it seems and very few of them. I eventually found the BE the easiest machine to use of the ones I have owned.

You can reset the buttons to defaults - details in the manual. It sounds like you should try that unless you are trying to pull shots manually and stopping when X comes out. The machine pre infuses for 10 sec by running the pump slowly and then switches to full pressure. It sounds like you are only getting pre infusion. 8 o'clock is not out of order for the final pressure during pre infusion. The needle should move up more slowly, may stay where ever it gets for a while then swing to the final pressure that the grind has set pretty quickly. If you are using a BE Touch I have no idea what those do.

Another check that will rule out beans is to fit a pressurised dual wall basket. No need to put coffee in it. The needle should then behave more or less as shown in the manual. Creep up during pre infusion and then go close to 12 o'clock. If it doesn't and just lasts for 8 secs after you have reset the buttons something is very wrong. The baskets could be checked by trying with the dual wall single and the double but it's probably best to use the single.

You should also weigh the coffee that's coming out and tell us - that has a bearing as well. 1ml weighs more or less 1g. The difference isn't worth worrying about. The manual just mentions ml.








Actually you might at some point in the future use an empty single pressurised basket to preheat the portafilter. I did after comparing 3 drinks made one after another. Once I did that all tasted the same otherwise there was a very marked difference between the 1st and 2nd. Don't do this when using a bottomless portafilter though - water will go all over the place.

My favourite drink using a particular bean came out with the default settings of the double button using a single basket with 9.4g in it. To give you some idea how fine the grind was the pressure finished up barely short of where it goes when a cleaning cycle is run. Out of interest that's 15bar for a setting of 6. The position Sage show is around 9 bar with it at 12 o'clock. I'd expect 3 to choke the machine and nothing other than a few drips to come out.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

coffeeman-ly said:


> John,
> 
> My machine is brand new, bought it from John Lewis on Monday and gone through almost 3 bags of Starbucks beans that have been roasted around the 2-3 month mark. (I mentioned 4 in OP as a buffer).
> 
> ...


I don't know what the retention is like on the BE's grinder but it can sometimes take a shot or 2 for a chance in grind setting to register. It's best to have the girinder running especially when going finer.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> I don't know what the retention is like on the BE's grinder but it can sometimes take a shot or 2 for a chance in grind setting to register. It's best to have the grinder running especially when going finer.


The retention is pretty low. Most of the space in the grind chamber is taken up by the sweeper and the arms on it -







It's an octopus, 8 arms. There is probably 1g or so that's retained permanently and maybe 2 or so that gets swept out. If beans are changed the carry over has gone after 2 of my size of shots mostly noticeable on the first. The grind itself settles down to them pretty quickly.

The only catch is when it's completely clean. The permanent retention needs to compact again. That can take a number of shots before the output gets stable when the hopper is on apart from the usual drift which for me was resetting the grind timer not the grinder setting. I have the impression that it's best to grind a few shots at 8 when the grinder is completely clean and to only ever clean it if needed as it's misbehaving.

Weighing beans in can work well too. If it's compacted where it needs to be the variation is down to broken beans on top of the burrs. Once that area is full what comes out gets pretty close to what went in. I had very oily beans choke the exit from the grind chamber on my SGP and suspect the same thing would happen eventually on the BE - the exit from that is very different though. I did wonder about adding a tube and a lens hood - the hopper detection switch would need over riding.

I suspect going from 8 to 3 in one go might break something but the equivalent on any grinder wouldn't be a good idea. Setting 1 finer without running it on my BE didn't cause it any grief as far as I am aware. It would be pretty easy to run a bit into the portafilter while adjusting it really - needs 2 hands though.

I think this thread needs the 8 sec clarifying. If that's for some grams out, same time and it doesn't change between 3 and 8 something is really screwed up. If it's 30 or 60g out and the time doesn't change snap.







Maybe we should ask for a video of the machine doing this. Testing with an empty pressurised basket will rule the beans out and a double would probably put 60g plus out and a single 30g plus as there is no coffee in them.

John

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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

I am an official newbie for sure. Turns out I wasn't using the dual wall filter.... has made a huge difference now. So I need to go back to stage 1 now

I feel really silly!!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Silly Billy


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Haha deffo. I'm drowning myself in a few beers.

I went into JL at lunch, he gave me some freshly roasted beans that was roasted last Monday. He told me to make sure I have the dual wall filter on and yeah... I just need to play around with the settings tomorrow, but the crema was nice and thick with the Starbucks beans at ground 8 and the consistency was slow, had a caramel colour, looked Fab!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well when you get decent beans, your worlds your oyster


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

coffeeman-ly said:


> Haha deffo. I'm drowning myself in a few beers.
> 
> I went into JL at lunch, he gave me some freshly roasted beans that was roasted last Monday. He told me to make sure I have the dual wall filter on and yeah... I just need to play around with the settings tomorrow, but the crema was nice and thick with the Starbucks beans at ground 8 and the consistency was slow, had a caramel colour, looked Fab!


Hang on you should be using the single wall basket. The dual walls are for commercial pre ground. Just to make that dead clear the single wall baskets aren't marked. The dual wall are marked as such on the base. Another name for them is pressurised baskets. They control the brew pressure and would make the pressure gauge behave sensibly even with nothing or even marbles in them. The pressure is controlled by a tiny hole in the outer wall on the base so the coarser grind preground has still brews reasonably well.

Sounds like a good excuse to take it back and order another from here

https://www.lakeland.co.uk/17962/Sage-The-Barista-Express-Bean-To-Cup-Coffee-Machine-BKE875UK

Notice the 3 year guarantee. I know from personal experience that the JL call centres tell fibs. Didn't know they did in the shops as well.

John

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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Oh really?

That's concerning then. I seemed to be getting a nice rich crema and a stronger taste using the dual wall.

That's what I meant by better I still seem to be getting an 8 second extraction time.

I'll take a video tomorrow.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Video's are good


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

See attached the video!


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T8P-HMd6PGKDUNFZgR25cKwFy3IuSeYb/view?usp=drivesdk


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Will go black half way through whilst I tamp!


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Its still coming out too fast. Try going finer and you should be using a single wall basket for proper espresso.

Once you get the flow and grind right then you can reprogramme the volume if need be.

Are these the fresh beans?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeeman-ly said:


> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T8P-HMd6PGKDUNFZgR25cKwFy3IuSeYb/view?usp=drivesdk


Those scales aren't up to the job.

You seem to have way too much coffee in the PF, grind 18.0g (using 0.1g resolution scales) into a cup/pot first. Give it a shake then transfer to PF.

That shot took about 16s, not 8?

Grind finer.


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## coffeeman-ly (Sep 26, 2018)

Will try the fresh beans today and the finer grind.

Perhaps I'll move back to the thinner wall basket.

In terms of shot, I've been counting from when the pressure shoots up? I'll be making a coffee in a few hours so will try these.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

You count from when you press the button.


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Jony said:


> You count from when you press the button.


Really? Ive always timed my shots from first drop!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

M_H_S said:


> Really? Ive always timed my shots from first drop!


It's pretty much halfway made by then


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Jony said:


> You count from when you press the button.


It's an automatic machine and he will be better off using that way at least initially. It's set for 30ml singles and 60ml doubles as it comes so if they are set to defaults time will be correct. Just leaves the grind to sort out.

This thread still comes back to the main problem - where did 8 secs come from? The machine is very simple to use - just press the appropriate button. Hold them pressed in and as usual with Sage they will do something else.

So the first task is to set a grind where in this case the double basket produces circa 60g of coffee when the double shot button has been pressed. If the grinder wont do that it's bust. As mentioned the beans can be ruled out by simply pulling a shot with an empty dual wall filter basket.

So step one - reset the buttons to defaults. Simple - press the program button until the machine beeps 3 times.

Step 2 - fit the single dual wall basket empty and press the one shot button. Note the pressure gauge readings and the time the shot takes. The weight of what comes out would be interesting as well.

There is no point in mentioning anything else until the basics have been established. The above will do that so just need the numbers.

Then onto coffee,

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

coffeeman-ly said:


> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1T8P-HMd6PGKDUNFZgR25cKwFy3IuSeYb/view?usp=drivesdk










Doh didn't see you tamping in it. That might have been useful. The pressure gauge is more or less doing what I would expect with an empty pressurised basket fitted.

I have tuned like that to see what happens. Started with some grinder setting - pulled a shot with grinds in it. Then set the grinder finer did the same again, then still finer and so on.

What effectively happens is that the basket initially sets the pressure gauge behaviour then as the grind gets finer the coffee starts having an effect and the pressure goes higher and higher as the grind gets even finer. Eventually the machine chokes and nothing comes out. The grinder should be capable of doing that with a single wall basket in it as well - been there and done that early on. One way of making that worse is over filling the basket but feel free not to use the razor tool.

You should also always set the portafilter handle at 90 degrees to the machine. Doesn't have to be exact - by eye is fine enough.

John

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## shimceltic (Oct 28, 2017)

coffeeman-ly said:


> John,
> 
> My machine is brand new, bought it from John Lewis on Monday and gone through almost 3 bags of Starbucks beans that have been roasted around the 2-3 month mark. (I mentioned 4 in OP as a buffer).
> 
> ...


When you press the pour button the automatic function is poor. Your better doing it manually by pressing and holding for a few seconds then pressing again to stop when you have enough espresso. That will stop 8 second pours. Then it's just a matter of adjusting grind and weight


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

shimceltic said:


> When you press the pour button the automatic function is poor. Your better doing it manually by pressing and holding for a few seconds then pressing again to stop when you have enough espresso. That will stop 8 second pours. Then it's just a matter of adjusting grind and weight


Bit strange that I put several kg of coffee through it with repeatable results all using the auto function. Have you actually got a BE - just curious.

John

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## shimceltic (Oct 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Bit strange that I put several kg of coffee through it with repeatable results all using the auto function. Have you actually got a BE - just curious.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Yes and auto as always gave me a really quick shot with not much liquid


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

shimceltic said:


> Yes and auto as always gave me a really quick shot with not much liquid


If trying to get a 1 to 2 ratio I generally found that it was usually easier to go higher but part of that is probably down to brewing with the OPV partly open. Shot time generally around 30 sec but could go longer. In fact all of the time I used the machine I had a feeling that the shot time varied a bit. Early on I pulling up to 9 shots a day but the novelty has worn of a bit for some. While I never bothered timing it accurately it doesn't take long to get used to how long it takes and notice small changes. Later for some reason I programmed a 30 sec shot without the portafilter on so a lot of water came out. Then added one with coffee in it. The shot went on and on. I terminated it after 1min+ and it still hadn't stopped. My conclusion is that it tried to put out a given volume of coffee and doesn't really use time at all. In this case a lot of water. So a short duration shot with the default button settings should be just down to not grinding fine enough. It can be programmed to what ever some one wants but only one grind will give the usual numbers. The usual numbers out are 30g for a single and 60g for a double or call the grams ml if you want. Neither are much in terms of liquid. However a single on a BE can produce a 360ml drink that really is as dark as this looks to be. Light wont pass through it









Believe it or not that is from 9.3g of coffee brewed at 15bar.







But only a few types of beans are strong enough to do that. Sages suggested reading of the pressure gauge represents around 10bar - the pressure most espresso machines brew at. My DB does and needs 14.5g of the same bean to achieve much the same but just touch stronger, Ratios for the same taste from both are different. The BE's higher. I used the default double button setting on that which gave a ratio a bit over 1 to 3. Not 60ml but there could be a good reason for that. Shot time was also over 30 sec.








Then came my mistake - trying to brew the same high pressure way using the double basket. Everything came out way too strong. Sage's suggested reading but probably a bit higher are the correct thing to do with that. The other basket I used held circa 14g - a modified one for another make. I used that one pretty successfully at lower pressures.

John

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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

Yeah, there are beans that should not be put into a portafilter. I did an experiment with the cheapest beans from the supermarket and i wasn't able to get a suitable shot no matter what i tried!

It smelled like shit

It looked like shit

And it tasted like shit


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## GeorgeR (Oct 21, 2018)

ajohn said:


> If trying to get a 1 to 2 ratio I generally found that it was usually easier to go higher but part of that is probably down to brewing with the OPV partly open. Shot time generally around 30 sec but could go longer. In fact all of the time I used the machine I had a feeling that the shot time varied a bit. Early on I pulling up to 9 shots a day but the novelty has worn of a bit for some. While I never bothered timing it accurately it doesn't take long to get used to how long it takes and notice small changes. Later for some reason I programmed a 30 sec shot without the portafilter on so a lot of water came out. Then added one with coffee in it. The shot went on and on. I terminated it after 1min+ and it still hadn't stopped. My conclusion is that it tried to put out a given volume of coffee and doesn't really use time at all. In this case a lot of water. So a short duration shot with the default button settings should be just down to not grinding fine enough. It can be programmed to what ever some one wants but only one grind will give the usual numbers. The usual numbers out are 30g for a single and 60g for a double or call the grams ml if you want. Neither are much in terms of liquid. However a single on a BE can produce a 360ml drink that really is as dark as this looks to be. Light wont pass through it
> 
> View attachment 36731
> 
> ...


Hi John

I found that the BExpress has a quite accurate flow meter. So your buttons and factory settings are not to set time but the quantity of the water. I have experimented with quite a few settings (with and wo puck, without pf as well as with the single and double wall baskets and very different grinds) and I found the below equation holds quite consistently:

Water to dose - 100 % * dry weight of the puck - 11 grams of wasted water = coffee in your cup.

To set it up I ended up using the double wall filter - just as the manual says - to adjust the proper amount of water. Using the empty filters it gives you a consistent reading, and also it gives the system enough resistance to have a total flow time long enough to press the button accurately (by measuring the volume or the time or both).

The above equation even holds for the empty double wall baskets where you'll have a significant amount of water left in the filter after the brew.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

GeorgeR said:


> Hi John
> 
> I found that the BExpress has a quite accurate flow meter. So your buttons and factory settings are not to set time but the quantity of the water. I have experimented with quite a few settings (with and wo puck, without pf as well as with the single and double wall baskets and very different grinds) and I found the below equation holds quite consistently:
> 
> ...


I concluded it used volume rather than time just before I stopped using it and switched to the DB. Several reason, had a feeling that shot time varied a bit from time to time, I can easily eyeball variations of 5ml due to the mugs I use and where the hot water level finished up in my mugs when it times out and didn't see any variation and lastly setting up a timed shot with an empty filter basket. The shot time went on and on and on with coffee in it.

Accuracy. I'd say within limits. I stumbled on the fact that my favourite drink came out when I used the default setting of the double button. This was using the single basket and brewing at the point where the over pressure valve just about opened. Later having checked what the pressure gauge actually shows I found this was at 15bar. I'd guess that most of the difference in output from 60ml was down to water going out of the OPV and into the drip tray.







Feeling a bit anal I actually measure what went in that via weight but didn't check that it tied up, I did notice that it could go way too high if I ground too fine.








Anyway the machine left me wondering why some do what they do to get consistent taste. I did without all of that over a fair number of kg of beans. Anyway my inclination on any machine is that if I have paid for buttons they are there to use so it's up to me to learn how. The only catch was maintaining a very consistent dose of grounds. I managed to do that without weighing those as well other than a check that what I was doing did work. It did with the beans I mostly use. Grind setting didn't need changing but the run time of the grinder did periodically and rather often following a clean.

I only used the dual wall baskets for preground and also to preheat the portafilter - just run a shot through it empty then fit the basket that is going to be used. Makes a very noticeable difference to taste when more than one drink is pulled on the trot. It also gives the machine a regular water only back flush.

John

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## GeorgeR (Oct 21, 2018)

Did you manage find what overpressure valve opening point ?

Is it adjustable some ways like on the DB?


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