# Sage The Oracle Touch makes "bitter" coffee, ideas please!



## johnny senna (Jul 1, 2019)

Hello Everyone,

I am new member. 2 months ago I took delivery of a new Sage The Oracle Touch. I have tried around 8 different beans but the coffee always tastes bitter / acidic no matter which bean I use (including beans that have only been roasted 2-3 weeks ago). I have made sure the brew time is between 8-12 seconds (I have adjusted the grind size to ensure this). I have also tried lowering the water temperature to its lowest setting in case the water was too hot. But none of this has made a difference. My parents were actually unable to drink the coffee it tasted so bad.

Do you think I am doing something wrong please? I can't see any further variables that I can change apart from the above, ie bean type, brew time (via grind size) and water temperature.

I am tempted to take it back to John Lewis for the, to either send it back to Sage for them to look at / test. I'm even tempted to reject the product.


----------



## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Sorry is that a typo? Brew time between 8 - 12 seconds?

If not that's where your problem is. Grind finer till you hit around 25 - 35 seconds and go from there

Unsure if the water temp is controlled in degrees on the oracle or not? If so aim for about 93 degrees


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

johnny senna said:


> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I am new member. 2 months ago I took delivery of a new Sage The Oracle Touch. I have tried around 8 different beans but the coffee always tastes bitter / acidic no matter which bean I use (including beans that have only been roasted 2-3 weeks ago). I have made sure the brew time is between 8-12 seconds (I have adjusted the grind size to ensure this). I have also tried lowering the water temperature to its lowest setting in case the water was too hot. But none of this has made a difference. My parents were actually unable to drink the coffee it tasted so bad.
> 
> ...


 Shot time is too short , did you get the white glove service to help set this up for you.

You should be aiming for about 40-45 g of espresso made 25-40 seconds ( the machine has a shot clock ) timings isnt a bad guide but dont feel constrained by time or stop the shot by the time.

Machine comes set at 93c leave it at that you change change it to Farenhiet in the menu if you want .

Coffee is good fresh roasted not supermarket garbage

You are suing the double basket .?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*Set brew time to 30 seconds, for a double shot e.g. 18-20g in the double basket, adjust grind fineness to get around 40g of liquid out in the 30 second brew time*...then see how it is.

If you want a long drink add hot water, or latte, steam milk and add it. If the machine can claim to make an Americano by shoving more water through the coffee don't let it, add the water later to the espresso you pulled.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> *Set brew time to 30 seconds, for a double shot e.g. 18-20g in the double basket, adjust grind fineness to get around 40g of liquid out in the 30 second brew time*...then see how it is.
> 
> If you want a long drink add hot water, or latte, steam milk and add it. If the machine can claim to make an Americano by shoving more water through the coffee don't let it, add the water later to the espresso you pulled.


 Oracle doses and tamps itself , set dose is 22g

I winder if the OP is referring to 8 seconds before the coffee comes out the spouts ( I think it mentions this in the manual ) as opposed to a total time of 8 seconds.

TO the OP - How long is the total time taking to make coffee ( use your shot clock on the machine )

And how much is it making


----------



## johnny senna (Jul 1, 2019)

Thanks Everyone. I am grateful.

Yes, my apologies, I meant 8-12 seconds before coffee starts to appear from the spouts. This is as per the guidance on the Sage The Oracle Touch's instructions. I am not sure of the total brew time, I'll have to time that and let you know. I suspect it is between 25-40 seconds though. The consistency of the coffee when brewing / pouring from the spouts looks right, ie like warm honey.

Yes I am using the double basket.

I have ordered quality coffee from recommended online suppliers and it's freshly roasted, ie it has a "roasted on" date and not a "best before" date.


----------



## johnny senna (Jul 1, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Oracle doses and tamps itself , set dose is 22g
> 
> I winder if the OP is referring to 8 seconds before the coffee comes out the spouts ( I think it mentions this in the manual ) as opposed to a total time of 8 seconds.
> 
> ...


 Thank you. I'll need to time the total brew time and also measure how much coffee it is making and come back to you.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

johnny senna said:


> Thank you. I'll need to time the total brew time and also measure how much coffee it is making and come back to you.


 Isn't there a timer in the oracle.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

johnny senna said:


> Thanks Everyone. I am grateful.
> 
> Yes, my apologies, I meant 8-12 seconds before coffee starts to appear from the spouts. This is as per the guidance on the Sage The Oracle Touch's instructions. I am not sure of the total brew time, I'll have to time that and let you know. I suspect it is between 25-40 seconds though. The consistency of the coffee when brewing / pouring from the spouts looks right, ie like warm honey.
> 
> ...


 Next step, how much espresso is it makng , in that time frame.

Don't concern yourself too much with nailing the grind so coffee starts at 8 seconds .there is no magic that happens at that point .

Coffee taste and strength is the relationship between amount of coffee used , amount of coffee it makes .


----------



## johnny senna (Jul 1, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> Next step, how much espresso is it makng , in that time frame.
> 
> Don't concern yourself too much with nailing the grind so coffee starts at 8 seconds .there is no magic that happens at that point .
> 
> Coffee taste and strength is the relationship between amount of coffee used , amount of coffee it makes .


 Thank you. Yes there is a timer on the Oracle which makes it easy to time.

I think I am getting somewhere! As mentioned above, the set dose for my machine is 22g. The time taken for coffee to come out of the spot is currently 8 seconds (in line with Sage's recommendations for this machine) and the total brew time is 30 seconds. However, the volume of coffee is somewhat high at 105ml. I guess that means I need to make the grind finer in order that the volume of espresso is about 45ml? Is that what I should be aiming for please?

Thanks again, I appreciate the help.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Perhaps I didn't post 22g in, go for 44g out in 30s, make grind finer till that happens.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

johnny senna said:


> Thank you. Yes there is a timer on the Oracle which makes it easy to time.
> 
> I think I am getting somewhere! As mentioned above, the set dose for my machine is 22g. The time taken for coffee to come out of the spot is currently 8 seconds (in line with Sage's recommendations for this machine) and the total brew time is 30 seconds. However, the volume of coffee is somewhat high at 105ml. I guess that means I need to make the grind finer in order that the volume of espresso is about 45ml? Is that what I should be aiming for please?
> 
> Thanks again, I appreciate the help.


 Grind finer , again don't stress about hitting 8 seconds , isa a visual clue but it's not a defined point that should be hit every shot .

Presumably the shot is a bit weak ? if so grind finer and aim for 45-50 ml out, over 25- 35 seconds .if you can scales are better


----------



## johnny senna (Jul 1, 2019)

Thanks folks. I will get onto this over the next few days and report back.

I appreciate your help.


----------



## Sage struggles! (Oct 24, 2019)

Hi Johnny, I have also had the same problem with bitter tasting coffee and have tried out all the extremities of the settings recommended in this post, other online posts, the manual and YouTube videos. One such video even changed the burr setting inside the grinder which I tried to no avail in taking the bitterness away. I wanted to post to see if you got anywhere with your machine? I am thinking that my old simple capsule coffee machine tastes a lot better with a lot less hassle! 
thanks!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sage struggles! said:


> Hi Johnny, I have also had the same problem with bitter tasting coffee and have tried out all the extremities of the settings recommended in this post, other online posts, the manual and YouTube videos. One such video even changed the burr setting inside the grinder which I tried to no avail in taking the bitterness away. I wanted to post to see if you got anywhere with your machine? I am thinking that my old simple capsule coffee machine tastes a lot better with a lot less hassle!
> thanks!


 What coffee were you using ? When was it roasted ?

A Machine does not make bitter coffee on it's own , its a function of the quality or coffee used, the roast level and the realtionship between the amount of coffee used ( in your case double basket 22g ) and the amount it makes ( the volume or weight of coffee ) and the grind.

Bitterness can also be a function of perceived strength and type of coffee used.

Did you use the double basket ? How much coffee came out over what time ?


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The machine is said to brew with Sage Dual Boiler parts. Assuming settings haven't been changed there will be 6 secs of pre infusion. There may be a possibility of coffee flow out of the portafilter a little before that is over. The other extreme is probably circa 8 secs as grinds finer than that are likely to extend the brew time past 25 to 30sec.

The difference between 8secs and what it needs to be to get a correct ratio is likely to be rather small so forget it and just concentrate on taste

I'd also start from too much out in 30sec and work down slowly via grind setting. Sage suggest starting at 30 on these machines. I would do that at least initially. They aren't daft. The other point is when going finer just one step at a time. Wastes some coffee maybe but .............

It may be worth tasting on the way down to a ratio of 2.

Lastly if a coarser setting is needed go too coarse and then fine. Like many things there is a little play in the mechanisms and 1 step involves a *very* small movement of a burr.

John

-


----------



## renalt130 (Dec 30, 2020)

I have gone through the same exercise. Very helpful thread. I'm curious what setting the OP ended up with. 
To get to a ratio of 2 ,I end up with a grind size of 20 on a double espresso portafilter. Then I see an 8s pre infusion on a 30s brewing time (set). Flow seems quite honey like and some air bubbles.

questions:

1. Does this sound reasonable. I had to take grind down from 29 default to 20.

2. How does this translate to a single shot (single portafilter)? Do I need to achieve same ratio of 2? Then I need to adjust grind up to 22. Taste then seems similar and brew time is set to 25s with pre infusion of 6 sec (time till coffee comes out). If I keep same grind as double I'm ending up with 1.7 ratio and bitter stuff.

does this all make sense? I'm a beginner 

thanks!!


----------

