# Grinder dilema. Help!



## Sean

Hello, long time voyeur, first-time poster.

I've had a Gaggia Classic for just over a year and as you read this post it will become clear that I've done nothing worthwhile with it.

So, now I want proper coffee. I've barely slept for days watching videos, reading forums, searching online shops/ebay etc, switching from one 'final decision' to the next. And subsequently the research starts over! I need a decent grinder. I'm a low volume user but don't mind working hard for a decent drink. I could spend up to £600 if absolutely necessary, but would rather not. I read so many 'you can get so much more for your money' posts, its blown my mind. Everyone has their own opinion whatever advice I take, its going to be an expensive gamble! I'd rather go new to eliminate the associated risks. I know this is like asking, 'how much string should I buy'? But I hope based on my machine, usage, budget and desire for excellent espresso it helps narrow it down.

I have been quite taken by the Mazzer Mini E, but it seems for every 10 people that swear by it, ten people hate it.

Once I get it, I'll repost this and replace the word grinder with coffee!

Thanks for any advice,

Sean.


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## Sean

And any advice on where to buy etc. would be great too.


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## 4085

The Mini E seems loved by those who own one (quite naturally!) and disliked by many others. It has clumping issues which no one can deny. Do you want to buy new or second hand and where abouts are you?


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## Sean

Hi, I'd prefer new but so many people seem to buy second hand and have no problems. I'm south coast near Eastbourne.


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## coffeechap

He states new in the post


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## coffeechap

Going used puts you in k30 territory or even mythos, which are much better than any of the new options, included the hyped up eureka zenith.


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## jeebsy

coffeechap said:


> He states new in the post


I've read it three times and couldn't tell

600 will get you a lot of grinder second hand. New the eureka zenith might be the one


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## 4085

as long as you know who you are buying from, then second hand is a good option because there is so little to go wrong with a grinder. They are just a case, motor, burrs and hopper.

£600 will find you a far higher spec grinder than a new one at that price, but for some, new is a better option.


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## 4085

coffeechap said:


> He states new in the post


 Not in his original post he does not


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## centaursailing

Sean said:


> And any advice on where to buy etc. would be great too.


Hi Sean. Based on davecUK's review of the Eureka Zenith 65E and the fact he bought one as a result of his own review, I followed suit! You can find the review in the 'For Sale and Wanted' section under 'deals', it's the thread titled 'Eureka Zenith 65E £499 delivered' - it's still priced £499 but delivery isn't included anymore and mine cost £5.90. I'm very happy with my choice and would just add that Bella Barista (the supplier of the deal) gives a 2 year warranty and the warranty is theirs, so in the event of any servicing/repairs, the machine goes to an UK address rather than one overseas. I should also add that BB are regarded highly by many members of this forum.

Hope this post helps rather than adds extra complexity to your choice.


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## Sean

So, as above, and reading around, Eureka seem to be popular currently.

Are there any well talked about grinders I should be avoiding?

I'd probably want to go doserless. And I don't want to get six months or a year down the line and want an upgrade.


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## coffeechap

dfk41 said:


> Not in his original post he does not


What part of " I'd rather go new" in the original post is not clear ?


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## centaursailing

Sean. If you haven't seen it already, the video at:





 is worth viewing.


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## Sean

Thanks, great advice and price. Although, currently OOS on Bella Barista site. Seems like a great possibility if they come back into stock soon.


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## Sean

Not wanting to wade into the 'did I state new' argument.. I did, but could have expressed it more concisely and explicitly. I apologise for my sloppy English. I do try.


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## centaursailing

Sean said:


> Are there any well talked about grinders I should be avoiding?
> 
> I'd probably want to go doserless. And I don't want to get six months or a year down the line and want an upgrade.


I replaced a Mahlkonig Vario-W (also badged as Baratza in the USA) and on my experience of static problems and inaccurate weighing (which is the whole point of it) I wouldn't only recommend avoiding it, I won't sell it on to anyone because it just wouldn't be a decent thing to do to someone, so it sits in a cupboard as a spare if my 65E ever needs servicing.


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## centaursailing

Sean said:


> Thanks, great advice and price. Although, currently OOS on Bella Barista site. Seems like a great possibility if they come back into stock soon.


If you go that route Sean, I'd suggest talking direct with Claudette at BB and tell her you are a member here. She's really helpful and told me about davecUK's upcoming review when I was still a silent member of CFUK. She may well have an order in progress from Italy and you'd be able to put your name down for one of those grinders.


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## Sean

centaursailing said:


> Sean. If you haven't seen it already, the video at:


Thanks, great video. Looks like it has some pretty useful features. Love the idea of not having to recalibrate after cleaning.

How long have you had yours? Is there anything you would change?


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## Sean

I've sent BB an email. Fingers crossed.

My business is still up for grabs though. So if anyone else can offer me an amazing used deal on something excellent or suggest anything new that is better than the 65E, please let me know.


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## Sean

Would the prevailing opinion be 65E over Mini E?


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## centaursailing

Glad you found the video useful Sean.

Today I've had my 65E exactly a fortnight.

The only change I'd make is to turn the portafilter rest into a platform for a digital scale, then with a little Blu-Tack to hold the basket in place I'll be able to grind directly into the basket. I did put together a prototype using the lid from my Casio fx85 scientific calculator and bolt it to the existing portafilter rest. It does work but lacks any finesse so, until the burrs are properly seasoned, I'm using the grinder exactly as I received it. Other forum members have expressed derogatory views about my idea but coming from a Vario-W it's kinda like the holy grail for me.


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## CFo

I would wonder if it is really necessary to spend £600 to get good results with a Gaggia Classic. I would tend to a Eureka Mignon for around £270 new, available from sponsor on this forum. Or less than £200 second hand. Personally find it a good match for the Classic, but clumpy but nothing a quick stir doesn't sort.


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## jeebsy

Get the best grinder you can afford. Neil has an HG One with a classic at the moment.


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## CFo

jeebsy said:


> Get the best grinder you can afford. Neil has an HG One with a classic at the moment.


Don't remember you saying this when you sold me the Mignon







...I have been very pleased with it....


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## jeebsy

A classic and a mignon is a great combo but if you can afford a bigger burred grinder go for it. At least then if you upgrade the machine your grinder is future proofed.


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## 4085

And remember, if you buy new, check out the warranty. Part of the difference between the BB price and other peoples price, is that they themselves give a 2 year warranty whereas with some other sellers, or re-sellers, the warranty actually comes from the manufacturer via the importer so in the event of a claim, you are not really dealing with the person you bought it from, and, it will only be a 12 month warranty


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## centaursailing

I think the general wisdom is to buy the best grinder you can possibly afford because the quality of the grind is an essential element of espresso and the difference can be even tasted with modest espresso machines, also it's one thing that might put off the dreadful day when you wished you had a better grinder and upgrade-itis strikes. For me, another point is size, the 65E is fairly large and only just gets under the cupboards over the kitchen counter - I have to remove the short hopper when moving it in and out from it's position! There's no way I could get anything larger into our kitchen. When ready to enhance your coffee experience then it's just the espresso machine for upgrade.

Hope this helps, if not I'm sure someone will give you a better explanation that I


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## Charliej

CFo said:


> I would wonder if it is really necessary to spend £600 to get good results with a Gaggia Classic. I would tend to a Eureka Mignon for around £270 new, available from sponsor on this forum. Or less than £200 second hand. Personally find it a good match for the Classic, but clumpy but nothing a quick stir doesn't sort.


Well if you think that's overkill Ronsil is currently using his EK43 with a Gaggia Classic, it doesn't really matter that "it's only a Classic" in fact it matters rather more to have a great grinder rather than an ok entry level one with a machine like a Classic. The better the grinder the better your resulting coffee will be, whatever machine you own. I recently changed from a Brasilia RR55, which is a very highly regarded excellent grinder, to a Eureka Mythos and this made a much much bigger difference than I had imagined it would. Plus the better the grinder the OP buys now the more he saves in the long term by not needing a new grinder for many many machine upgrades to come.

Rod, just a thought regarding your Vario-W you could always buy yourself a set of the steel burrs, cheapest place is via Baratza USA, and use it as a brewed coffee grinder, or offer it for sale here with your honest appraisal of it, then its a case of caveat emptor for who ever buys it, maybe they would want it as a brewed grinder not a main one?


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## centaursailing

Charliej said:


> Rod, just a thought regarding your Vario-W you could always buy yourself a set of the steel burrs, cheapest place is via Baratza USA, and use it as a brewed coffee grinder, or offer it for sale here with your honest appraisal of it, then its a case of caveat emptor for who ever buys it, maybe they would want it as a brewed grinder not a main one?


Charlie, the Mahlkonig Vario-W (bought explicitly for espresso direct from Mahkonig Ditting) already has steel burrs in as new condition. Mahlkonig, the maker of the burrs for themselves and Baratza, now specifies the Vario-W as being for drip and for french press but not for espresso. The standard Vario (both Mahlkonig and Baratza) have ceramic burrs. You make a fair point, I could sell it with a caveat to someone to make drip or french press.


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## charris

If you have a budget of 600, I think it is a no brainer to get a used K30 or Mythos. Overkill for a classic, but I guess gradually you will to upgrade your machine also. I have a mignon and I am also testing the Zenith 65E but to be honest I am thinking to get one of the big boys and stop thinking too much about the grinder.


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## Sean

Thanks for the responses. As others have said, warranty is the prudent consideration and considering how good the 65E is, I believe it will serve me well for many years. Of course I can have a superior grinder second hand, but I need to consider the overall potential costs if anything goes awry.

The other side of the above discussions around my machine, I would say, I inevitably hope to upgrade in the future. Hence considering a grinder which is disproportionate to my current machine.


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## Charliej

The worst thing that could happen to a used grinder is the motor failing, in the case of a Mythos that would cost under £200 I believe. The thing is that type of grinder is designed to take some hammer day in day out 6 or 7 days a week and will probably grind more coffee per week, when used in a busy coffee shop, than all but the most caffeine sodden person would make in a year at home, they are made to work without missing a beat. A Mythos has titanium burrs and unless you've taken a punt on eBay or gumtree and got one dirt cheap with an unknown history you'll never need to change the burrs when used in the home.

As you are a new member you probably don't know this but CoffeeChap buys used grinders thoroughly cleans, services and generally refurbs them so that when you buy from him they are in "as new" condition, so you are buying with a safe guard. Many many forum members have purchased ex commercial grinder from him, some have over time bought more than one as they upgrade from something like a Mignon to a Mazzer SJ and from an SJ to something with much larger burrs, and I don't know of anyone who has bought a grinder from him and had any problems with it, other than those caused by user error, and even then he will always take the time to help you resolve such issues and also to help you make the choice of grinder.


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## Sean

Thanks. I have heard of CoffeeChap, but didn't know thats what he did.


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## michaelg

I would buy something 2nd hand from CC and save the remainder towards the inevitable machine upgrade (especially if you like making milky drinks for >1 person at a time as I found that got frustrating quite fast when I had a Classic


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## Sean

In respect of my machine, I have ordered bottomless PF and Rancillio wand. How essential is OPV mod and is it a must to buy a pressure gauge to do it? Also, is a VST basket worth the cash? Thanks.


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## Sean

One more thing for now.. Where is the best/most reliable/freshest place to purchase coffee online? Also, does anyone know of any roasters in the Sussex area?


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## Charliej

Sean said:


> One more thing for now.. Where is the best/most reliable/freshest place to purchase coffee online? Also, does anyone know of any roasters in the Sussex area?


Have a look at the list of UK roasters in the Beans subforum, you won't go far wrong with any of them. I've been using Coffee Compass who are based in Brighton mostly this year, they are a pleasure to deal with and are happy to vary the roast level of a bean to suit your tastes. They offer a wide range of beans from pretty light roasts through to extra dark, there is a thread I started again in the beans subforum discussing this roaster, there are also quite a few other roasters based in and around Brighton. I would suggest buying say 1kg of one bean for now to avoid changing beans too often as you get used to your machine and grinder, whichever bean you buy depends on your personal tastes and the sort of flavours you enjoy in your coffee. I would also suggest that for now you stick to the stock unpressurised baskets as VST baskets can be notoriously unforgiving in use, you could also consider the IMS Competition Series baskets which quite a few of us own as well as VST, they seems a lot easier to get an even extraction from a lot of the time, you just need to make sure you get the Gaggia specific ones( The model numbers for these start with B68 rather than B70). If you don't yet have an unpressurised basket( the ones that don't need that silly plastic widget) then buy one asap.

The OPV mod can be done on your Gaggia machine, instead of buying a complete pressure gauge or the parts to make one I think there are 2 or 3 of them doing the rounds in the Pay It Forward sub forum so add your name to the list in order to borrow one.


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## Sean

Thanks for the advice. Yes, I already have an unpressurised basket. I'll check out Coffee Compass and have a look at the pressure gauge thing. Thanks.


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## Sean

Well, the trigger has been pulled and my first ever grinder will be a black Zenith 65E. Luckily BB had one in stock even though it shows OOS on website. Very excited about receiving it tomorrow! Also ordered some Jampit from Coffee Compass, bottomless PF and Rancillio wand on way too from HD! In queue for pressure gauge to do OPV. I'm getting the show on the road!


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## Tiny tamper

Congratulations sean, stick up a few pics or a video of the new gear in action, nice to see your making progress


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## Sean

Thanks, I'll definitely posts some pics once I'm set up on what used to be a breakfast bar!


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## Sean

Silly question I suspect... Could someone explain ridged and ridgeless in terms of baskets. Thanks.


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## 4085

Ridgeless normally have flat sides where as ridged have a ridge around them at some point that often has a wire clip i place which make sit much harder to remove from the pf. It is a personal thing but many seem to prefer ridgeless


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## Sean

Thanks, silly as I thought! Having now compared my original basket and the non-pressurised... Wondered why the original used to fall out and the new one doesn't.


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## jeebsy

A ridgeless still won't fall out - it just doesn't need anywhere near as much leverage


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## Sean

Everyone remembers the day they received their first grinder, right?? Heaven only knows what I'm doing with it! I've already done 500g in an attempt to dial it in. I have had the full range of results but in a totally random order. The first shot was probably the best to be honest!

In spite of my naivety and poor quality efforts, I'm still tasting flavours I never knew possible.

Any advice on storage? Where does everyone keep their beans?

If you freeze, do you need to defrost before use?

How long will beans be good in fridge?

Its early days and my set up is still quite primitive. I'm aiming for 25 seconds for a double shot with a nice clean flow from bottomless PF.

Its so tricky balancing firmness of tamp with fineness of grind.

Any and all advice welcome!

Thanks.
View attachment 7807


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## Mrboots2u

Do you have scales?

Weight your dose

Weight you output ( the espresso)

Ignore how much volume this is producing. Measuring by volume is inaccurate .


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## Sean

Not useful ones, no. One of these - http://www.sainsburys.co.uk/shop/gb/ProductDisplay?langId=44&storeId=10151&catalogId=10122&productId=151074

Which I haven't even tried using.


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## Mrboots2u

Get some cheap jewellery scales of ebay that will measure to 0.1 g .


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## Sean

What ball park figures should I be aiming for?


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## Sean

Does anyone recommend an awesome bean for latte?


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## Mrboots2u

Taste wise what are you aiming for?

Chocolate caramel

Fruit

Nutty

None of the above?

Any previous coffee s you have enjoyed?

I've enjoyed some great medium. Roasts recently

Hasbean La fany caramel and choc

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/el-salvador-finca-la-fany-washed-bourbon

Extract original espresso as above

http://shop.extractcoffee.co.uk/product/original-espresso

And this one too

http://shop.extractcoffee.co.uk/product/ibairi-espresso

Something else

http://www.steampunkcoffee.co.uk/product/zeppelin-espresso-blend-250g/


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## Sean

I'm awfully new, but I would say chocolates, caramels and nuts. Thanks for the recommendations. Today is my first day of real coffee. I've found the Jampit too dark for my liking but fantastic taste.


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## Mrboots2u

Click on the links supplied for the roaster s tasting notes

I really liked the first one. Its a medium roast as opposed to darkee.Knock out in milk.


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## Sean

What are the causes of spraying from bottomless PF? Even distribution? What reduces it? Can a heavier tamp help? Finer grind? Should I forget about conquering it until I've done OPV? How much difference will OPV make if any? Finally, is this enough questions?


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## froggystyle

No, ask more questions..


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## froggystyle

I believe spraying is caused by channelling, need to get your distribution better in the pf before you tamp, no clumping, nice fine grind... Then a nice firm tamp.


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## Sean

I suspected so, I get very little clumping from the Eureka. And I try awfully hard to spread it evenly. Practice, practice, practice I guess. I have strayed into too fine a grind territory and got two drips out so I think I'm fine enough.

How much does grind behaviour change from bean to bean?


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## froggystyle

You generally need to tweak each new bean you put in the grinder, but it can depend on roast levels, so if your going light to dark the be prepared to make some changes...

Do you have a non naked PF? i would just play with that for a while and try to get the weight output/time right.

At the end of the day if you can get the output weight right, in a certain window of time, and it tastes ok, your on the button!


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## Mrboots2u

Reverting to a spouted of will only hide what's going in in the extraction it won't change it...

Channeling /,spritzing will still effect the time and extraction and taste. You just won't be seeing it


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## Mrboots2u

Shot may be running fast with a spouted of will you know its its the grind or a result of channeling for example


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## Sean

Yes, I understand what you are saying. If a persevere with the bottomless I'll know for sure when (or if!) I nail it.

As far as taste goes, I'm still unsure as to what I'm looking for. I can tell bitterness, but other than that, my palate isn't tuned yet. It all tastes 'fine' to me.


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## Charliej

As you are using a proper on demand grinder don't try and be too fancy trying to spread the mound of coffee out, leave it alone, as often stirring and otherwise ,messing around can often make the problem worse. Go back to basics and if you are "spreading" the coffee around in the basket simply because you think you should or have read that is helps, stop doing it your grinder should be giving you a nice fluffy mound of ground coffee in the centre of your basket, simply tamp down on top of that to flatten it and tamp all in one and see how that works for you, this works even better with a convex base tamper rather than a flat base.


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## froggystyle

^^ +1

I noticed an improvement with the convexed tamper, grind, shake and tamp.

Keep it simple.


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## 4085

Sean, others may not agree but I would suggest leaving the bottomless for the moment. Concentrate on the other areas. Your grinder will not be anywhere near seasoned in yet so you are wasting your time trying to perfect the shot. Once you have 10 kilos or so, the burrs will settle down and you can play again.

Charlie is right. Do not grind too fine, you want to clumps. If the grind looks fine, then no need to stir in, just ta,p. tyr to nutate, try it without.


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## Sean

Thanks. The splatter seems to have resolved itself. I think its primarily due to a crap ill-fitting tamper. I'll certainly take the don't spread advice on board though.


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## Sean

Well, I'm around a week into 65E ownership and suddenly everything seems to have gone rather bitter. I'm not weighing input and output yet, I'm only going by judgement and trying to keep things consistent. And only changing one thing, very slightly, at a time. Things were slowly improving, I've almost got the grind/tamp/flow balance right, still possibly a bit fast and still kinda bubbly crema which flattens very quickly, doesn't seem right. I'm using 12 day old Jampit Mahogany, which has been refrigerated.

Any insights gratefully received, thanks.


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## Mrboots2u

Arghhhh don't refrigerate beans!


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## Sean

That sounds like an insight! Thanks! Why?


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## The Systemic Kid

Biggest danger for beans is exposure to moisture. Lot has been written on pros and cons. If you want to freeze make sure they are airtight. Let them come to environment temp naturally before opening and don't re-freeze.


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## 4085

But our knowledgeable friends from over the water, concluded a scientific study where they definitely were not sponsored by a fridge manufacturer, to state the frozen beans were better for you.........


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## Charliej

dfk41 said:


> But our knowledgeable friends from over the water, concluded a scientific study where they definitely were not sponsored by a fridge manufacturer, to state the frozen beans were better for you.........


Yeah and they think GM food and irradiating food is a good idea over there too ..........


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> But our knowledgeable friends from over the water, concluded a scientific study where they definitely were not sponsored by a fridge manufacturer, to state the frozen beans were better for you.........


Quite so but as always, the devil is in the detail. The American research concluded that you needed a really cold freezer - they used one going down to -29c. They also concluded that self defrosting freezers were 'problematic' and most domestic freezers on the market now are self-defrosting.


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## ronsil

For best freezing results you really need a small blast freezer which works by removing all heat from the chamber very quickly.

Will freeze beans solid within a few minutes. Once frozen they can be held in a normal freezer.

Domestic blast freezers of sorts I've seen in the US but not here. You can get small commercial machines but they are not small neither is the price


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## Sean

I shall not refrigerate any more. And freezing seems far too much hassle.

Therefore, what is the best storage option? Airtight plastic container in a cool dark place? And how long can you store?

Thanks. Every day is a school day!


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## 4085

All I do, is pop some into the hopper, enough for a couple of days, then keep the rest in the one way valve bagn they came in and clip it. I use about 1 kilo per week. As long as you make an effort not to leave them fully exposed to the air, a roasted bean will keep for a reasonable period of time.

Sourness is usually a sign of brew temp. Are there no forum members near to you who could pop over and help a bit?


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## Sean

dfk41 said:


> All I do, is pop some into the hopper, enough for a couple of days, then keep the rest in the one way valve bagn they came in and clip it. I use about 1 kilo per week. As long as you make an effort not to leave them fully exposed to the air, a roasted bean will keep for a reasonable period of time.
> 
> Sourness is usually a sign of brew temp. Are there no forum members near to you who could pop over and help a bit?


Not that I'm aware of. I'm on south coast near Eastbourne. I am having fun with the trial and error though!


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