# Vesuvius - 3rd time lucky.



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This machine has been on a journey round the north west UK , it's now in its third home ...I think I might be staying for a bit longer here ....

Few people have asked me to post some bit and bobs on getting this machine .

I doubt there will be anything terribly new or exciting as Dave C , and others have had a while, there's a lot in his review , more than I have the expertise and patience to compete with .

I'll give some cake handed user experience on here for others to read ..


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Good to see some independent stuff on the machine though


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Cake handed...must be tricky to maintain your workflow with cake hands


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Gotta love ya jeebsy ....


----------



## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

Hands and mouth full of cake as well as pulling shots ! Wow! Go Booty go !! I had you down for the Slayer though


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm using the settings as recommended in the manual currently

Im using a SCACE 2 to check the offset in temp ( more later ) seems to be in the right ball park so far , but I need or do more measurements .

Let's get some of the minor gripes out the way first , before we move in to the interesting stuff ...


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Show me some pretty pictures


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I wouldn't mind seeing some of the V also


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Steam wand

There's is a ton of great steam in this machine , the steam wand though let's it down massively for a machine of this or any other calibre .

This machine is currently being reviewed in HB and it passed it cafe milk drinks test with flying colours . I can't believe the model used has the same steam arm that this run does ,,,,

It doesn't seem to articulate enough and I can't use a jug above 300 ml with it . I'm not a designer so I'm unsure what's not right about it . Where the bend in the steam arm is ? How it articulates ?

I can get good micro foam with a small jug again it's hard to do though .

Perhaps other owners can give an insight into why it's so lacking ..

The three hole tip is the Best one currently out of the ones I have ...

Having said that it has a ton of steam power.

Vesuvius steam power:


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Can you post me a picture of the slot


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Daren said:


> Can you post me a picture of the slot


Pardon ?


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Where you put the money in... or is it on free vend?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Plenty of room for cups....


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Some photos for Daren

Please bear in mind , this machine has had two previous owners to me , so there is some wear and tear you wouldn't see from a straight from the factory model...

View attachment 10151


View attachment 10152


View attachment 10153


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The drip tray is a little small, i do like the "grate" though

View attachment 10154


View attachment 10155


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Those handles look.....


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

...I was just about to say!

...still lovely machine otherwise


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Those handles look.....


you were saying ? The finish leaves a little to be desired, i think i will be investigating some new wooden ones for myself .

View attachment 10156


View attachment 10157


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

With this machine , its what it can do thats makes it different .

Looks and aesthetics is such a personal preference, to some the L1 looks lovely to some if doesn't

I dont really want to get into a debate on whether it looks majestic or not , ill post the pics and people can make their own mind up

Ill put up some pics of the infamous steam wand then we can move onto some extractions ...


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

There are definitely a couple of things that could improve:

The steam wand is just inadequate

I think the water wand should be on the opposite side to the group lever or should articulate away from the group lever.

The metal work and sheet polishing could be better

The drip tray could be deeper (front to back) to support cups better

The software interface could be a lot more intuitive and faster

The handle and knob styling is 'distinctive'

But, this is a way capable piece of kit. And first evolutions are rarely without compromise. I don't think there's an equivalent at this price point. Certainly no buyers remorse here.


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> With this machine , its what it can do thats makes it different .
> 
> Looks and aesthetics is such a personal preference, to some the L1 looks lovely to some if doesn't
> 
> ...


This was on my list of contenders for my new machine but even as a contender the looks, for me, were not its strong point

But I guess its whats in the cup that matters


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> Those handles look.....


...like handles not levers...


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Obnic said:


> ...like handles not levers...


Really ?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Infamous steam wand .

Then we will move onto some more pertinent extraction stuff










Comparison with l1


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Joking aside this is one of the most capable machines out there, and for those that have bought it the in the cup experience is what it is about and by all accounts most are enjoying that side of things


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'm more interested in the scace


----------



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I'm more interested in the scace


What? - Technology over coffee - Never...



> Infamous steam wand


Now that is exactly what I've been trying to explain to the Factory. The L1 Wand shows a much longer horizontal. That horizontal section on the bend is far too short on the Vesuvius. They were showing a 50mm length on a recent suggested drawing I've seen. I've gone back to them & said it needs 60mm minimum.

I'm pretty confident something will get done but WHEN?? I'll go back to them after the weekend.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Are you planning to do a side by side comparison between the versivious lever profile and the L1 before the londinium disappears this weekend Mr boots ?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ronsil said:


> What? - Technology over coffee - Never...


Well...It is a Vesuvius thread afterall ;-)


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Are you planning to do a side by side comparison between the versivious lever profile and the L1 before the londinium disappears this weekend Mr boots ?


Im not one for shootouts or this is the best thing ever ( honest )

Taste is subjective, so is the choice in machines...

Im not sure what a couple of shots tasted by one person would achieve or prove....

If you want an amazing lever shot buy a lever, if you want a machine that opens up the realms of other types of extractions and tinkering and playing with temps etc then buy this...

I do know the coffee so far , is very very tasty indeed. Some of the V's best shots have been great but using different profiles to that of a lever.

Plus mapping the lever profile is a bit of a guess even with a scace and you cant replicate the declining temp profile .

I have been given some ideas on trying to find out what happens during a lever shot as opposed to a nine bar shot that ill try and do some experiments with that ...


----------



## welshrarebit (Apr 17, 2014)

Videos of the machine please


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

welshrarebit said:


> Videos of the machine please


good timing.....

Here is a Simonelli t3 profile

Slow ramp up than 9 bar

Remember this is on EK43 coffee burrs ( so a 30 second plus shot at the brew ratio i aim for )

The coffee is some las nubes that been in the freezer and then out for 2 days, so not the freshest

Taste wise , the great chocolate notes as expected....






And some art










Cappucino style, still getting little too much foam


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Must be strange for you to go from silent extractions of the L1 to the strange noises of the versuvious pump ramping up and down.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Must be strange for you to go from silent extractions of the L1 to the strange noises of the versuvious pump ramping up and down.


Mine was tank not plumb so never really silent .....


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

welshrarebit said:


> Videos of the machine please


What else would you like to see?

Post some ideas and i can at least try ..

There is a video of the menu options on BB site

I dont have a naked pf yet, that will allow me to show the effects of big preinfusions i've been using ( slayer style ) on the puck

Am open to suggestions


----------



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

> Here is a Simonelli t3 profile Slow ramp up than 9 bar


I'm not seeing any video. Is anyvideo there?

Now I see it - Thanks


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)




----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ronsil said:


> I'm not seeing any video. Is anyvideo there?
> 
> Now I see it - Thanks


Now?


----------



## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I'm enjoying this thread, thank you very much Mrboots. It sounds like I shouldn't pack away the 9 bar Classic just yet (







)


----------



## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

I can see what owners mean now about the steam wand


----------



## Firochromis (Oct 26, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Here is a Simonelli t3 profile
> 
> Slow ramp up than 9 bar
> 
> Remember this is on EK43 coffee burrs ( so a 30 second plus shot at the brew ratio i aim for )


Mr. Boots, forgive my ignorance but is this slowly-ramp-up thing some form of pre-infusion? By saying Simonelli t3 profile you mean there are other pressure application profiles and you can choose from them, right?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Firochromis said:


> Mr. Boots, forgive my ignorance but is this slowly-ramp-up thing some form of pre-infusion? By saying Simonelli t3 profile you mean there are other pressure application profiles and you can choose from them, right?


Hi

The profile I was using is one Xpenno sent over to me

It's modelled on how a simonelli t3 machine operates

It's one you programme in , the machine has 7 " steps" you can put a bar pressure to and the time you want it to run for

You can the choose pump acceleration which will dictate how fast or whether your read this pressure

I'll do a clip on programming one in at some point , if that's of any interest to non users ..

You make an interesting point , at what point does pre infusion become " fusion "

Thinking out loud when coffee comes out pre infusion is over ?

Anyone else got any thoughts on this ?

If you know what pressure say a linea works to you can manually program this in.

These are available online again Xpenno has sent me these over for a synesso , linea etc .

Any of that make sense


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

The profiles that I sent MrB were created after reading a load of articles from various vendors, shops and individuals. I make no promises that they are accurate and obviously they can't exactly emulate something that's physically different. They are however good starting points that you can tweak to meet your own needs. I'll publish my list if people are interested?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Publish em spence might be people want to see them tested out or refracted against a 9 bar extraction for instance


----------



## michaelg (Jul 25, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi
> 
> The profile I was using is one Xpenno sent over to me
> 
> ...


I'm no expert but I would say when first drips start to appear that is when pre-infusion is over as it would appear the puck is saturated at that point. That's my take on it anyway. Interesting would be if you could slowly vary the hole size in the basket over time and maintain a steady pressure but I think that technology might be light years away yet!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

michaelg said:


> I'm no expert but I would say when first drips start to appear that is when pre-infusion is over as it would appear the puck is saturated at that point. That's my take on it anyway. Interesting would be if you could slowly vary the hole size in the basket over time and maintain a steady pressure but I think that technology might be light years away yet!


Ditto, no expert but logically it strikes me that once you are getting significant flow through the puck (beyond perhaps a drip or two) you are into the realms of "extracting", as you have extract.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok sorry for the poor quality

Here is how to program a pressure profile


----------



## Firochromis (Oct 26, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi
> 
> The profile I was using is one Xpenno sent over to me
> 
> ...


Hi, I'm not directly interested in the pressure profiles but nowadays trying to understand the "pre-infusion" technique. I own an earlier version of a La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi. With my machine pre-infusion is not avalaible but I can either go cheaper route, add a simple passive device to group head and gain so-called "progressive pre-infusion". This is the same thing with the E61 groups, you don't have any control on it. Or more expensive route is to make a control board upgrade and gain programmable pre-infusion. With this one you can set the time (up to 8 seconds) and pressure. Obviously no match with the V and its programmable profiles, but still something. After this thread I lean towards the board upgrade to get programmable pre-infusion


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I've been doing some SCACE stuff on the machine and the l1 which I'll post up at some point.

The l1 SCACE stuff along with some commentary from and CC will show you how adaptable the l1 can be with some clips to demonstrate .

Also made some very very good drinks today on the V

One shot of the hasbean San Sebastián with along preinfsuion (18 seconds )

Was stand out , the raisin and rum in the espressos popped out .

It was one of those shots where I knew I'd hit it , not a god shot but a great shot .

I've had shots like this on the l1 too may I add .

Then sent the rest of the day making capp of hasbean las nubes , getting better milk foam each time .

The spro of las nubes was also a delight ...

Fun times , more to learn , more to drink


----------



## Squarepusher (Oct 5, 2014)

I was seriously considering the Vesuvius before deciding to opt for the L1.

So I would be interested if you could replicate the L1 pressure profile on the Vesuvius and let us know how the 2 compare in the cup, for same beans/grind/tamp/extraction etc.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Squarepusher said:


> I was seriously considering the Vesuvius before deciding to opt for the L1.
> 
> So I would be interested if you could replicate the L1 pressure profile on the Vesuvius and let us know how the 2 compare in the cup, for same beans/grind/tamp/extraction etc.


You can't replicate the declining temp profile of a lever ( about 4 degrees over the shot I think )

Plus SCACE doesn't tell me the absolute pressure the spring is delivering , more the rate of decline ( more on this in another post and thread )

I think for me there are too many variables and I'm not a consistent enough barista to pull same shots to compare , it wouldn't be blind testing and you'd need to do it with more than one person.

Enjoy the machine you've bought it will make great espresso

And I've said it before , if you want lever espresso at it peak buy a lever

Even then there are ways to manipulate the lever into profiling and temp changes if you wanan.

I don't think one machine wins , they are different machines working in different ways to make exceptional espresso..

Sounds like I'm sitting on the fence ( I am it hurts )

But I don't think my opinion really should account for much as to what is best best at what ?

I'm not a fan of shoot outs and declaring a winner , it's all too subjective

These machines are different beasts


----------



## Squarepusher (Oct 5, 2014)

I appreciate your response and if you can't measure the L1 pressure change accurately with the SCACE then there is little point trying to replicate it.

One of the reasons I chose the L1 over the Vesuvius is the apparent simplicity of the lever machine and its reported thermal stability.

It generally takes me a couple of weeks to get through a bag and I typically prefer to drink beans from South America.

So all the additional bells and whistles that the Vesuvius offered seemed superfluous to my needs/requirements.

I do think that the Vesuvius has moved the pump sector on quite significantly though and would expect to see alot of the other manufacturers start to replicate this sort of programmable pressure profiling method in their new machines.

I think the next 12-18 months are going to be interesting, as I think they have shown that there is a definite market for this type of technology to be adopted.


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I thought the result on your video looked very like a shot from a lever. ie less creama than a standard pump machine, did it taste like a lever shot? - I loved the noises, far better than the vibe pump of an L1.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Been using a flat 5 bar profile this morning with the extract LSOL .

20g dose 47.5g out 8.1 TDS 20 ey

Temp 93.5 ( offset at 14.5 )

2.2 on the EK straight flat tamp no nutate

If grapefruit is the descriptor your aiming for with this espresso , then this pulls it off in spades .

Starts sweet , grapefruit notes hit quickly on the tongue, super refreshing , in the middle then that pleasant acidity you associate grapefruit , just enough to round it out . All this in in sip .

Real clarity of taste and super clean in the cup .....

Will run this profile ago an and let the brew ratio increase a little , see if I can hit 21 plus extraction yield and taste that ...

Not the body you associate with at a ristretto espresso , but the mouthfeel of well pulled normale on a conventional grinder ....


----------



## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> If grapefruit is the descriptor your aiming for with this espresso , then this pulls it off in spades .


Alternatively, if grapefruit is what you are aiming for with espresso then just pour a little grapefruit juice in after pulling the shot.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thanks for that top tip


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Spazbarista said:


> Alternatively, if grapefruit is what you are aiming for with espresso then just pour a little grapefruit juice in after pulling the shot.


Far too easy


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I did say that the LSOL was definitely not for spaz


----------



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

......and more than a few others.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I'm digging it, managed to find the sweetness again going back to my main pressure profile. It's probably not one for those who prefer a traditional shot though


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Worked well for me too. I'm definitely preferring it over any DSOL I tried as well


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ronsil said:


> ......and more than a few others.


I agree or on, but seeing how it is a "lighter side of life" bean it would clearly only be interesting that like it lighter, the same could be said for the "DSOL" everyone has there preference....


----------



## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

\ said:


> Hi' date=' I'm not directly interested in the pressure profiles but nowadays trying to understand the "pre-infusion" technique. I own an earlier version of a La Spaziale S1 Vivaldi. With my machine pre-infusion is not avalaible but I can either go cheaper route, add a simple passive device to group head and gain so-called "progressive pre-infusion". This is the same thing with the E61 groups, you don't have any control on it. Or more expensive route is to make a control board upgrade and gain programmable pre-infusion. With this one you can set the time (up to 8 seconds) and pressure. Obviously no match with the V and its programmable profiles, but still something. After this thread I lean towards the board upgrade to get programmable pre-infusion
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok so been enjoying slow ramp up profiles on the V

Whilst also drastically reducing my tamp pressure to barley nothing .

All dependant on the roast of the coffee but been getting higher extraction yields from shorter brew ratios ....( basically TDS is going up from 7.5 is not 8.5-9.5 )

Having watched some slayer one group clips , am now experimenting with ramp ups to 9 bar but with reduced pump pressure ( now at 225 I think ....).

Let's see what this does ...

Look like I was over tamping and getting stuck in a TDS hole a little ....

Old adage seems to adhere , grind fine , tamp light , then add dose lower a bit ( am at 17.5 g ) .

Larger doses and heavy tamps were slowing down the shot times but not increasing the TDS in any way ( like you would expect with say a conventional grinder making a ristetto ) ...so slow shot with the EK coffee burrs doesn't always mean stronger

Always learning ( mainly coz I didn't knew much to start with )


----------



## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok so been enjoying slow ramp up profiles on the V
> 
> Whilst also drastically reducing my tamp pressure to barley nothing .
> 
> ...


Can you run at more than 9 bar? Ideally you'd want to run at the highest pressure before flow rate starts to decrease at the highest pressure part if the profile.

JP


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> Can you run at more than 9 bar? Ideally you'd want to run at the highest pressure before flow rate starts to decrease at the highest pressure part if the profile.
> 
> JP


You can go up to 12 bar on the V. In my tests, going much above 9 bar starts to highlight bitterness on many beans that I've tried.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> ...so slow shot with the EK coffee burrs doesn't always mean stronger


You've let me down, I thought you were MP's no. 1 fan!?


----------



## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> You can go up to 12 bar on the V. In my tests, going much above 9 bar starts to highlight bitterness on many beans that I've tried.


Have you tried running a flat profile at 8 bar, run three 18g shots for 30s, then averaging the weights, then running the same at 8.5, 9, 9.5, etc. The pressure that produces the highest shot weight should be your peak pressure.

JP


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Not to that degree of accuracy (0.5bar), I've been from 2-12bar in 1 bar increments, I've been going mainly on taste TBH not weight. I'm not sure how you can use weight as a measure to compare different profiles as pressure and flow rate are interlinked and if you vary pressure only then I'd expect to see different weights produced when keeping everything else the same so I think I must have missed something here.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Not to that degree of accuracy (0.5bar), I've been from 2-12bar in 1 bar increments, I've been going mainly on taste TBH not weight. I'm not sure how you can use weight as a measure to compare different profiles as pressure and flow rate are interlinked and if you vary pressure only then I'd expect to see different weights produced when keeping everything else the same so I think I must have missed something here.


If you're changing pressure, flow rate & brew ratio, you're very likely also changing concentration & extraction yield. Therefore, not simply judging the effect of changes in profile. Comparing different profiles at the same brew ratio (& everything else) might tell you more about the effect of the profile itself.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> If you're changing pressure, flow rate & brew ratio, you're very likely also changing concentration & extraction yield. Therefore, not simply judging the effect of changes in profile. Comparing different profiles at the same brew ratio (& everything else) might tell you more about the effect of the profile itself.


I'm kinda doing that at the moment....


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> If you're changing pressure, flow rate & brew ratio, you're very likely also changing concentration & extraction yield. Therefore, not simply judging the effect of changes in profile. Comparing different profiles at the same brew ratio (& everything else) might tell you more about the effect of the profile itself.


That's what I'm saying (I hope), I'm keeping the brew ratio the same i.e. time, weight in, weight out. The only thing changing is the pressure. I wasn't sure how you'd use weight to determine whether the pressure is the best one or not.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

To some degree time no master though .....

Weight in weight out

Then refract for me


----------



## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:
 

> Not to that degree of accuracy (0.5bar), I've been from 2-12bar in 1 bar increments, I've been going mainly on taste TBH not weight. I'm not sure how you can use weight as a measure to compare different profiles as pressure and flow rate are interlinked and if you vary pressure only then I'd expect to see different weights produced when keeping everything else the same so I think I must have missed something here.


You're looking for the pressure that produces peak flow (ie the highest weight of espresso from a given input weight over a given time) before flow starts to decrease. Scott Rao outlines this in his recent book.

JP


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> That's what I'm saying (I hope), I'm keeping the brew ratio the same i.e. time, weight in, weight out. The only thing changing is the pressure. I wasn't sure how you'd use weight to determine whether the pressure is the best one or not.


Ah, sorry, cool. Well, if you have same dose & weight of beverage in the cup & hit on a good flavour then that change in flavour is most likely linked to the profile's effect on how well it extracts, there may be more than one that works at a given brew ratio, other profiles might produce a heavier (& weaker), or lighter (& stronger), shot at a good flavour.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> You're looking for the pressure that produces peak flow (ie the highest weight of espresso from a given input weight over a given time) before flow starts to decrease. Scott Rao outlines this in his recent book.
> 
> JP


Ok, so you take say 18g Coffee, fix the grind. You then run the shot multiple times at different pressures and see which one produces the most espresso before you hear the pump ramping down i.e. the puck starts to lose resistance?

Is this based on EK, not EK or and grinder?


----------



## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Ok, so you take say 18g Coffee, fix the grind. You then run the shot multiple times at different pressures and see which one produces the most espresso before you hear the pump ramping down i.e. the puck starts to lose resistance?
> 
> Is this based on EK, not EK or and grinder?


For example: take 18g and dial it in so that it produces 36g in 30s on a straight 8 bar profile. Then up the pressure by 0.5 bar. Run three shots at the same dose and grind, for 30s. Average the weights. Keep repeating at higher pressure until the wet dose starts to decrease. The pressure that produces the highest average wet dose in 30s with all other factors the same should be your peak pressure.

This holds true irrespective of the grinder used.

JP


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Bump may be worth moving to the new subsection


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Blast from the past.


----------

