# Niche Zero – cleaning issue: black ring stuck



## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

I'm trying to clean my Niche Zero, however, when I get to 1m09s in the cleaning video below, I simply can't remove the black ring. It won't budge, yet in the video it comes out seemingly effortlessly. I don't really want to have to get the pliers out... Anyone experienced this? Am I missing something daft? Suggestions?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

There a slotted bolt on the shaft i know that much.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@strebor - just wiggle it. It just rests there. It it's not coming out, just lift it and the burr will come with it. Then you can have a better understanding/play and see what's going on. It is as easy as one two three.

did you also post on the Niche FB group? Saw something similar there.


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## Nirish_Ian (Aug 31, 2020)

Mines a tight fit as well I just leave it attached to the burr and lift it and the burr out together, then brush it clean without actually separating the two.

I did manage to separate it once out on counter but don't usually bother.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Nirish_Ian said:


> Mines a tight fit as well I just leave it attached to the burr and lift it and the burr out together, then brush it clean without actually separating the two.


 Are you trying to separate the black ring from the burr? As far as I understand they are one part and you don't need to separate them for cleaning. They are kept together in the video you linked to as well. Or maybe I am misunderstanding something?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Doram said:


> Are you trying to separate the black ring from the burr? As far as I understand they are one part and you don't need to separate them for cleaning. They are kept together in the video you linked to as well. Or maybe I am misunderstanding something?


 It does come out. But you are correct, it doesn't need to come out for cleaning, at all.


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## Nirish_Ian (Aug 31, 2020)

Doram said:


> Are you trying to separate the black ring from the burr? As far as I understand they are one part and you don't need to separate them for cleaning. They are kept together in the video you linked to as well. Or maybe I am misunderstanding something?


Referring to little black piece on top of the inner burr not the black ring on the outer burr.

The black piece comes off the inner burr in the video.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Might happen with he-man tightening of the bolt which isn't really needed due to the keyway.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Actually the video misses another area where grinds may build up. The top of the spout where the grinds exit the grind chamber. They may need something more robust than the brush. They don't cause a problem so it's more of a case of how long to leave them there. They stay put.


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## strebor (Oct 20, 2020)

Nirish_Ian said:


> Mines a tight fit as well I just leave it attached to the burr and lift it and the burr out together, then brush it clean without actually separating the two.
> 
> I did manage to separate it once out on counter but don't usually bother.


 Yeah, this is the route I went in the end - lifted the entire thing out, once I realised I could do that from the bottom. Then it was much easier to pull the black ring out.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

Mine is stuck too, and I am unable to clean the grinder because of it. Also, the grain size selecting ring does nothing. The grinder is totally stuck in fine/expresso and I have to modify how much coffee I put through it to get a decent extraction. I tried using pliers to get it out with no joy. Any help with be very much appreciated.

Video below. Please excuse my heavy accent, I am Spanish&#8230; Not from Barcelona


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Man_Cave said:


> Mine is stuck too, and I am unable to clean the grinder because of it. Also, the grain size selecting ring does nothing. The grinder is totally stuck in fine/expresso and I have to modify how much coffee I put through it to get a decent extraction.


 Great video! 👍😊 -

- when was the last time you actually got it out?
- when was the last time you cleaned it?
- how old is the grinder?
- can you spin the burrs?

the top burr carrier simply sit on top of two springs. The fact that the adjust collar is not functional makes sense because all it does is to apply pressure on the burr carrier. Yours is stuck.

instead of pulling, can you push it in instead? Or, put the burr collar back in and adjust as fine as you can to the point the burrs lock. Remove the carrier and try again. *Whatever you do, do not turn the grinder on. Unplug it from the mains.*

My theory is that there's some gunk in there which solidified and it is now giving you a hard time. So you need to try and break that up.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

The grinder was bought February 2020 and has had about 10Kg through it. I have never cleaned it or dismantled it and, only noticed the fault today, as I have changed coffee brand and I needed to adjust the grind size. The burrs turn freely and the grinder works alas, one grind size only. I can get a decent extraction adjusting the amount of coffee I use but, I would rather get it working the way it should. I have tried everything you can think off to try and get it loose with no joy.

**EDIT**

I tried what your said and turned the ring as tight as I could. Now the burrs won't turn and the darned thing is still stuck.

Waiting for Niche support to answer my mail. But now there's a fair bit of damage to that plastic ring from trying to get it out with those grips and tapping it with a small hammer. Not sufre how that is going to affect warranty.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Man_Cave Suggest you watch this. Skip through the bits not needed. It explains things


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Man_Cave - Have you ever used water, sprtizers, RDT etc? I still think all you have is caked up coffee built up to the point it is now acting as some sort of cement - but a much weaker version. Maybe Niche is best to advise here. Good luck!


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Man_Cave said:


> tapping it with a small hammer.


 😲😬

It's almost certainly just jammed up with coffee after a year of no cleaning - note to self to clean regularly!

The two ears of the plastic carrier are sat on springs and mine has some play but sounds like yours is fully compressed on the springs now... if it were me, I'd try and protect the upper burr with a cloth or something and try and wiggle it clockwise/anti-clockwise by pushing out on and twisting the upper burr to try and free it up but I'm sure niche will take it back and sort it if their past customer service is anything to go on!

Hope you sort this!


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

I just watched the video of you pulling on one side of the carrier, that's not going to work, it has to come out level. I'd concentrate on getting it stuck the same amount all the way around then you've got a much better chance of getting it out.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

Good news.

James from Niche zero is on the case.

I shall send it to him and he will get it sorted


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## ETX1 (Apr 3, 2017)

strebor said:


> Yeah, this is the route I went in the end - lifted the entire thing out, once I realised I could do that from the bottom. Then it was much easier to pull the black ring out.


 Mine is also the same, had to lift the whole thing and once out they can be seperated.

Tried cleaning it again last week ( second time cleaning it as only four months old) and the same thing happened so just cleaned around with a brush while rotating the bottom.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@ETX1 Interesting that two of you have this problem. Please do not misunderstand me. I am not suggesting you are doing anything wrong, but my mind asks why? Are you doing something different to the rest of us? If the black ring is getting stuck, then it suggests (and I may be wrong) that something is making it stuck. Do you spray the beans with water or mist them? What beans are you using? Some beans, take Monsoon Malabar for example are notorious for being very oily, which in turn will gunk things up. I hope that you get to the bottom of this issue


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Could just be that these were built a tighter fit. Will say trying to lift one side of the burr like you're doing in the video will not remove it, you need to lift at two points opposite each other so you don't tilt it. There should have been movement though.


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## ETX1 (Apr 3, 2017)

As a matter of fact I do use Monsoon Malabar however that is not the issue, in my case it is a very tight fit as even after I had everything apart and cleaned after I slotted the black ring on top I tried to remove it ( while clean) and it would not come off separately.

Just to avoid confusion I am referring to strebors post regarding the 1m09s ring.


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## Niche Coffee (Aug 4, 2017)

ETX1 said:


> As a matter of fact I do use Monsoon Malabar however that is not the issue, in my case it is a very tight fit as even after I had everything apart and cleaned after I slotted the black ring on top I tried to remove it ( while clean) and it would not come off separately.
> 
> Just to avoid confusion I am referring to strebors post regarding the 1m09s ring.


 If you send us an email [email protected] I can suggest something that might help


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

Clean your grinder people, or you'll be facing an expensive repair bill. This is what mine looks like after 17 months of not cleaning it (about 10Kg of coffee) everything got seriously corroded and as it is out of warranty, It will cost £200 to get it sorted. So yeah, clean it throughly every 250/500g to avoid this mess.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Ouch. Were you wetting your beans?

I think people performing rdt with stainless flat burrs cab make people think it's ok to do on all burr sets but it obviously depends on the material of the burrs!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Man_Cave said:


> 17 months of not cleaning it (about 10Kg of coffee) everything got seriously corroded


 Are you sure it's corrosion and not coffee?

I daren't ask about the state of your coffee machine... 😞 🤮 - I'm hoping you kept that one nice and clean!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Man_Cave Can I just make sure I fully understand. The reason I ask is that I only take mine to pieces a couple of times a year. You do not add water into the process at any stage? You do not spray the beans or anything like that? It looks as if moisture is getting in, causing the grinds to clog together, but, if that was the case, then other than a good clean what else needs done. Please help others escape a possible problem matey!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Man_Cave said:


> Clean your grinder people, or you'll be facing an expensive repair bill. This is what mine looks like after 17 months of not cleaning it (about 10Kg of coffee) everything got seriously corroded and as it is out of warranty, It will cost £200 to get it sorted. So yeah, clean it throughly every 250/500g to avoid this mess.
> 
> View attachment 58861


 Cleaning the Niche every 500g is unnecessary, I clean mine every 3 months and that for me would be 10kg. When I do open it up, there is nothing to do....


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Cleaning the Niche every 500g is unnecessary, I clean mine every 3 months and that for me would be 10kg. When I do open it up, there is nothing to do....


 Ditto. I do the same. Clean up mine every 3 months (approx. 3kg). There's hardly anything to clean.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I clean mine every so often, basically whenever I think the taste might benefit from it. It's a quick an easy process. Would be interesting to hear what @Man_Cave has been doing re RDT etc.



newdent said:


> Ouch. Were you wetting your beans?
> 
> I think people performing rdt with stainless flat burrs cab make people think it's ok to do on all burr sets but it obviously depends on the material of the burrs!


 It's not the material of the burrs that's different, it's the coating in the niche and possibly also areas moisture may collect...I'd imagine spin speed, conical burr design and differences in heat generation all make a big difference.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

No water in the beans at all, Coffee used is Square Mile's Redbrick from day one.

Machine is with James from Niche who took it apart as I could not get the top burr out.

As I have said to him, I find the damage quite incredible to fathom.

The grinder gets used once a day for an 18g dose and, I tap gently after every use to get whatever little dust remains there. So, I never thought of cleaning it any further. I mean, it is called zero for a reason right?

Obviously my mistake for taking things for granted but still, that looks like is has been submerged in water for the whole 17 months and I am wondering if, together with the lack of cleaning, a manufacturer defect of some description is also at play here.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Man_Cave Well, James will get to the bottom of it for sure. Did you buy the grinder new or am I getting mixed up with the chap who had the trouble with the black sprung ring? I am looking forward to the prognosis, like many!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Unless you've got it too close to the machine and it's catching moisture up the spout from purging the steam wand or something I don't see how you'd get moisture in there to cause rust then.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> I clean mine every so often, basically whenever I think the taste might benefit from it. It's a quick an easy process. Would be interesting to hear what @Man_Cave has been doing re RDT etc.
> 
> It's not the material of the burrs that's different, it's the coating in the niche and possibly also areas moisture may collect...I'd imagine spin speed, conical burr design and differences in heat generation all make a big difference.


 I see, I got the impression that these burrs weren't stainless though but admittedly that's because of how they looked but maybe this is just the coating. What material is it?


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Is freezing ok? I freeze my beans and grind from frozen. Never had any issues with other grinders but don't want to cause any issues with my niche!


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

Bought new form Niche directly. No bean freezing, no water, machine is about 50cm form coffee maker and I don't use the steam wand very often at all, as my wife uses a Nespresso on the opposite counter.

So, this is from a single dose of 18g practically every day for the last 17 months without cleaning it. I am hypersensitive to caffeine and so, I drink just one cup a day and some times, I don't drink coffee for a couple of days.

Lesson here is, clean your grinder regularly or pay a high price (£200 in my case), maybe not as often as 500g but, I will definitely celan it every Kg for now on.

I guess james has learned about the durability of his machine when people neglects cleaning it for 17 months.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Man_Cave said:


> The grinder gets used once a day for an 18g dose and, I tap gently after every use to get whatever little dust remains there. So, I never thought of cleaning it any further. I mean, it is called zero for a reason right?


 The reason isn't that it needs zero cleaning!



newdent said:


> Is freezing ok? I freeze my beans and grind from frozen. Never had any issues with other grinders but don't want to cause any issues with my niche!


 No, if you grind from frozen, when it's humid, moisture collects on the beans and coffee when exposed to air (condensation)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Man_Cave I am trying to see the from all points, but I do not see what Niche have done wrong. if you buy a new car, and for 18 months do nothing apart from put fuel in.....no water level checks, no oil level checks, no making sure your windscreen wiper rubbers are in good order, then how is it the manufacturers fault if 17 months after owning it, you get a flat tyre that has been caused by a very slow puncture?


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

I just want to say, I realised it was jammed because I wanted to try something different from the usual Redbrick and I could not adjust the grain size.

But, is says a lot for the consistency of the Niche Zero that over 17 months of using Redbrick coffee, I did not need to adjust the grinder, and was consistently brewing for 26-30 seconds for a 36 grams shot of good tasting espresso.

I just need to remember to clean it&#8230; and this being a £200 lesson, I doubt I'll forget to do so form now on.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> @Man_Cave I am trying to see the from all points, but I do not see what Niche have done wrong. if you buy a new car, and for 18 months do nothing apart from put fuel in.....no water level checks, no oil level checks, no making sure your windscreen wiper rubbers are in good order, then how is it the manufacturers fault if 17 months after owning it, you get a flat tyre that has been caused by a very slow puncture?


 Funny you should say that&#8230; I have a Mercedes Benz E class that shows service overdue by 540 days&#8230; it runs silky smooth and has no issues.

The Niche was working fine (albeit jammed) and I only realised it was stuck in that particular size when I tried to change it.

But yes, you are absolutely right!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

newdent said:


> I see, I got the impression that these burrs weren't stainless though but admittedly that's because of how they looked but maybe this is just the coating. What material is it?


 The burrs will be made from High Carbon steel (heat treated). When I used to do lathe work as a lad at Sci Mech, the lathe tools were tool steel/high carbon steel and I would use them to turn stainless, silver steel, Titanium etc... However, they are very susceptible to corrosion in the presence of moisture (hence RDT not recommended)....*but really hard*.

When I used to sharpen the tools, you had to be careful not let them get too hot and spoil the case hardening.

Stainless Steel










high carbon Steel/Tool Steel


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> The burrs will be made from High Carbon steel (heat treated). When I used to do lathe work as a lad at Sci Mech, the lathe tools were tool steel/high carbon steel and I would use them to turn stainless, silver steel, Titanium etc... However, they are very susceptible to corrosion in the presence of moisture (hence RDT not recommended)....*but really hard*.
> 
> When I used to sharpen the tools, you had to be careful not let them get too hot and spoil the case hardening.
> 
> ...


 Ah as I thought, with or without a coating, you still don't want to be getting high carbon steel wet without drying immediately!

I have two Japanese chef's knives made of high carbon steel and just leaving them wet overnight = rust. Bloody sharp though.


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## ETX1 (Apr 3, 2017)

Niche Coffee said:


> If you send us an email [email protected] I can suggest something that might help


 Hi James

Done as you suggested and it is much better, thanks.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Man_Cave said:


> Clean your grinder people, or you'll be facing an expensive repair bill. This is what mine looks like after 17 months of not cleaning it (about 10Kg of coffee) everything got seriously corroded and as it is out of warranty, It will cost £200 to get it sorted. So yeah, clean it throughly every 250/500g to avoid this mess.
> 
> View attachment 58861


 hard to tell from one photo but a lot of it looks like caked on coffee to me, not rust. though i can see that the plastic base of the grind chamber has completely disintegrated.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

You should ask Square Mile to compensate you for the nice advertisement you made for them regarding consistency of their Red Brick blend.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

facboy said:


> hard to tell from one photo but a lot of it looks like caked on coffee to me, not rust. though i can see that the plastic base of the grind chamber has completely disintegrated.


 The photo isn't in context...Niche dug out the base of the grind chamber. It didn't disintegrate.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> The photo isn't in context...Niche dug out the base of the grind chamber. It didn't disintegrate.


 do u think we'll get a summary of what failed? i'm just curious, could understand if they decided not to publicise the cause.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

facboy said:


> do u think we'll get a summary of what failed? i'm just curious, could understand if they decided not to publicise the cause.


 I have no idea...


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

***UPDATE***

So, after paying £200 for the repair and, asking for all replaced parts to be sent to me so that I can send them to a metallurgist for inspection, Sam from Niche sent me the following:

*"So as you may have gathered with your conversation with James the NZ is split into 3 parts; Base, Body, and Top. You will notice the lines where each are assembled together.*

*The Top has had a complete rebuild including every screw/spring. So everything you will be able to access with the Bolt Driver provided has been replaced.*

*It will be these items that you will want/need to inspect upon delivery, perhaps take some photos? And then when you do a routine clean, inspect these same parts.*

*The Body has also had a complete rebuild - barring the PCB, which I hope you will agree, you did not have issues with previously (i.e. no previous electrical faults).*

*We have kept the same Base (and all the accompanying wood accents), as this was undamaged and means the serial number matches you original order."*

Followed by this when I enquired if the old parts have been sent as requested.

*"The old parts are not included in this as we are still studying them at this time - only because this is the first time we have seen this happen and want to gain a better understanding much like yourself."*

Now, I am flabbergasted that a machine just 17 months old and, with just 10Kg of coffee through it, was in need of such an extensive repair. And for Niche to ignore my request to send me the old parts I have paid for and therefore belong to me&#8230; well, I am sorry but this smells of a manufacture defect they don't want to admit to me.

I am convinced this machine left the factory with a fault that allowed excessive coffee residue to accumulate. That, together with not cleaning it, created the perfect storm for a catastrophic failure. But, and this is important, had I used it for 4-5 coffees a day, the failure would have occurred well inside the warranty period or need for routine cleaning. (18g x 5= 90g a day. 10000g divided by 90g = 112 days and not 17 months)

I am also of the opinion that had this machine been "normal" not cleaning it would not have been an issue.

That Niche has decided to charge me nearly half the price of a new unit for something so outside the norm, then keep the parts for analysis without my express permisión and, ignoring my explicit request for the parts to be sent with the repaired machine, is nothing short of really bad costumer and public relations.

Niche has decided no to do this under good will and charge £200 (+£26 insured postage to them) I'll imagine to protect their bottom line.

With this catastrophic failure being so utterly unusual and rare, I need to make sure what exactly caused it, and whether or not my consumer rights have been breached.

If the metallurgist report finds manufacturing fault with the parts, I shall be claiming all expenses and compensation from them

The fixed machine (sans the old parts) should arrive latter today (Friday the 23rd) But, I am, quite honestly, very disappointed with Niche.

Hopefully they'll decide to change their stance after reading this. But as things are now, I sure will not be buying form them again.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Man_Cave said:


> ***UPDATE***
> 
> So, after paying £200 for the repair and, asking for all replaced parts to be sent to me so that I can send them to a metallurgist for inspection, Sam from Niche sent me the following:
> 
> ...


 So you're funding a metallurgist report....fine. Until then Niche have made it clear they've not seen this before and are studying your old parts. They haven't refused (unless you've left something out) to return the parts from you permanently, based on the quote above it would seem they are "still studying them at this time" and so you should expect them returned when they have finished, at which point they'll be able to tell you what happened and refund you if it does turn out to be a manufacturing defect, at least that's what I'd expect.

I don't see any evidence to support the conclusions you've jumped to. For example, why are you convinced the machine was faulty from the factory and why do you believe this happened because you did't clean it? I don't think there's any evidence this has happened because of coffee residue is there? Only that it shouldn't have happened and nobody currently knows why it happened there's not much else to say.

I'm not sure what your rights are exactly with regards to retaining parts. If you paid for repair it could be they charge a service fee, give you new replacement parts and keep the old ones on the basis the parts they supplied were free (you paid for the service not the parts). On the other hand as I said it's not clear from your quotes that they will not be returning the parts to you when they have figured out what happened, so maybe wait to form conclusions until they report back to you and until you fund your independent reports into the issue as you prepare to take legal action if you aren't satisfied with their findings.

No offence intended, I get why you're annoyed with them and the whole thing in general, but jumping to conclusions and questioning the integrity of the company based on guesses isn't helping anything.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

This from James when I asked how it got so corroded in so little time



> "I am not sure unfortunately, but it may have been from coffee oils (I can only guess).
> 
> We will get this fixed for you and sent back out, and will send you the invoice soon.
> 
> ...


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## 29244 (Feb 8, 2021)

@Man_Cave "just to keep the old serial number, is a crafty way to avoid giving me a new 12 month warranty. You know people, they think of all shorts of thing these days."

It's a surprise to many that the warranty period is not (normally) restarted if the macine is replaced. The warranty is not for any specific machine as such, but rather that you have a functioning machine for the warranty period and no more. They may not be quite as Machiavellian as you suspect.

I can understand your frustration of course. However it sounds like so far there are no solid conclusions on which to base decisions or appoint responsibility.

I do agree with you that the old parts are rightfully yours and that you should have been asked for permission for them to be temporarily retained for a defined duration.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Man_Cave said:


> I mean, I don't want to think badly but, some people may think that stuffing all new parts into the old casing, just to keep the old serial number, is a crafty way to avoid giving me a new 12 month warranty. You know people, they think of all shorts of thing these days.


 My personal experience contradicts this: I recently had a bread maker machine replaced under warranty. Not only they sent me a brand new one, they also told me not to return the old one back to them. The instructed me to cut the lead and dispose of it.

But more importantly, they also stated that there the warranty left on the appliance remains the same, I.e.: whatever was left on the old one.

so, in summary: the item was replaced under warranty with a brand new one. The warranty was not renewed.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, fact,

The Niche has a 12 months warranty

Your Niche has not been cleaned in the 17 months the you owned it

Your Niche is at least 5 months out of warranty

So Niche are repairing a machine that has been damaged in your tenure. This was not warranty work by them. I think it is time you woke up and smelled your coffee. You do n to service your car. You do not care for and clean your Niche. You do let your mouth yap to blame everyone else.

Niche have sold between 25,000 and 30,000 (as a guess) units since launch with this fault never having been seen before. yet according to you, the blame is with them. I for one hope that you get the parts back, then spend a boatload on your metallurgists report, only to find the fault is your own.......


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@tompoland Perhaps we have different rules over here matey, but I have never seen a warranty in the UK, effectively restart with a repair within the period. The warranty states X months from the date of purchase. Quite often you find someone buys an item and does not use it for several months but the warranty starts at date of purchase, not date of first use


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @tompoland Perhaps we have different rules over here matey, but I have never seen a warranty in the UK, effectively restart with a repair within the period. The warranty states X months from the date of purchase. Quite often you find someone buys an item and does not use it for several months but the warranty starts at date of purchase, not date of first use


 I have found the same, the warranty does not restart with a replacement.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

*From the Niche's manual:*

"Care and Cleaning:

3-6 monthly depending on use, deep cleaning the Niche Zero is advisable."

"Important Safeguard:

25. Keep the Niche Zero clean. Refer to Care and Cleaning."

Source: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0081/2076/2450/files/Niche_Zero_IFU.pdf?v=1617928737

Disclosed fact: OP hasn't cleaned the grinder in 17 months of ownership.

*Legal:*

Your rights against the retailer can last for up to six years, but after the first six months the onus is on you to prove a fault was present at the time you took ownership of the goods.

Source: https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/advice/what-do-i-do-if-i-have-a-faulty-product-aTTEK2g0YuEy

So, in a way, if the OP can prove the grinder design/burrs are at fault, then the OP has a case. But... If this was due to simply lack of cleaning/maintenance, then I very much doubt given the Niche's manual wording.

Would be interested to know the outcome @Man_Cave. Good luck.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Isn't this issue basically an issue with the Kony burrs and not the design of the Niche? I'm guessing Niche have replaced your burrs that cost £150ish to buy along with the parts that were damaged by the burrs (and by you trying to remove the burrs). The machine isn't in warranty, they could have just told you to get on your bike but they had it in so that they could try and learn what's happened.

The cost of your postage should definitely not come into it.

Obviously I feel for you that such an expensive thing has broken so soon but in all honesty, you've neglected the machine and it broke. Lesson learnt the hard way!

We all make rash decisions when we're upset or angry but honestly don't get the metallurgist report comment. What are they going to say that isn't obvious? They'll tell you the burrs are corroded due to the presence of water. They may or may not discover the steel has imperfections but they won't be able to prove it lasted less than the warranty period.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

newdent said:


> What are they going to say that isn't obvious?





newdent said:


> Isn't this issue basically an issue with the Kony burrs and not the design of the Niche?


 Well, I am not an expert. On the Facebook group, someone mentioned the possibility of galvanic corrosion. Don't know how that works or how it occurs inside a grinder. What I'm trying to say is that things happen due to a combination of things and factors, not a specific component in isolation. Hence why I mentioned "the design" rather than "the burrs".

My point is, if the OP wants to figure out what happened independently, the OP will need it to be looked by an specialist, and then take the case forwards.

As mentioned, there are thousands of units sold out there. This is the first time this has been reported as far as I know. Neglect due to cleaning, burrs manufacturing fault or else, that's not for me to judge. That's for the experts.

As for me, I'll keep cleaning my Niche every 3 months as I always did and continue being a very happy customer and user for the past 3 years. 🙂


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> Right, fact,
> 
> The Niche has a 12 months warranty
> 
> ...


 My car shows service overdue by 540 days as the car has not done enough mileage to warrant expending £600 in servicing it.

My Sage Oracle which I purchase a month before the Niche, was only descaled for the first time yesterday, as use Osmio filtered water and, usage has not been sufficient to need descaling.

Likewise, the niche had only 10Kg of coffee through it and should not have needed cleaning other than when I attempted it. Much less, suffer the devastating failure it has.

Like I said in my post, if I had used it to grind 5 coffees a day the fault would have shown it's ugly face well inside the warranty period or recommended cleaning timeframe.

But, it seems people here gets stuck (yes I use the word intentionally) in the 17 months time frame and, not the actual amount of coffee this unit has had through it which, is insignificant in the larger picture.

I have talked to people that has not cleaned their niche for two years and, have put a hell of a lot more coffee through it than I have, upon telling them about this, they rushed to do so, only to find little to clean there and no damage.

That's why I believe this unit was defective from either faulty parts or assembly error. It does happen, much as some people like to believe that manufacturing processes are perfect.

I was shocked by Jame's response to my request to inspect the parts which, I found quite arrogant and condescending. But now, all of the sudden, when I ask for my parts back, they need to inspect them and, kept them without asking me if they could do so while ignoring my request to send them back. Yet more questionable behaviour.

As for those questioning ownership of the old parts. Please do excuse me but, I paid £500 for my unit plus another £200 to get it repaired. Whatever was in my unit belongs to me, that should be quite obvious to anyone that takes the time to think carefully.

Sorry to burst the fanboys bubble but, I can only speak from my experience with the unit and the company which sadly, has so far been quite negative.

That some people has issue with me hiring a metallurgist to get to the bottom of this is, quite frankly, mildly amusing. What I do to find if my consumer rights have been breached, should not be mocked or looked upon with contempt, and in fact, it should be a source of worry for everyone that I find myself in a position of having to do so.

I know how I used my Niche and that damage could have only come from a factory defective unit. Period!

As for out of warranty, if the unit was defective from factory and I can prove it, then the 1979 consumer act comes into effect and I should be able to get all my monies back (including whatever I spend in the metallurgist and, of course, compensation for my troubles)

And yes you don't get another 12 months warranty on product replacement. I posted that very early in the morning while I was in bed and very tired.

Still, sometimes in cases such as this, when a fault is way out of the norm, doing things free of charge under good will is the best option alas, they have chosen a different path.

And that's all I have to say about this particular situation so, please forgive me if I don't reply anymore.


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## 29244 (Feb 8, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @tompoland Perhaps we have different rules over here matey, but I have never seen a warranty in the UK, effectively restart with a repair within the period. The warranty states X months from the date of purchase. Quite often you find someone buys an item and does not use it for several months but the warranty starts at date of purchase, not date of first


 Indeed. Perhaps my wording was clumsy but I was not inferring that a warranty restarted with a repair, rather quite the opposite.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I've had to go through and edit quite a few posts in this thread. If you want to use a word processor or external editor to make the text

Super large

then write your entire post in it... really doesn't help make the post readable, just irritating.

*Any more posts entirely in super large text, will be removed*, because I can't be bothered to remove all the formatting and then re-italicize and re-bold the appropriate portions of the text again.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I've had to go through and edit quite a few posts in this thread. If you want to use a word processor or external editor to make the text
> 
> Super large
> 
> ...


 I used my ipad notepad to write the very long posts and then, I could not find how to reduce the font size when I copied it here.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@DavecUK - Dave, on the super large text (my post was also edited - thanks for that).

Now, the reason was I copy/pasted from the sources I quoted. On their website, the text is formatted like that.

The button "Remove Format" (pointed by the arrow) does not work in my case. It leaves some of the formatting behind.









So, how did you fix the formatting? Is there a way?

The only way I can think is to put that into a plain text editor and paste back here. But that's just too much work sometimes.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MediumRoastSteam You have to *select all* the text then use the Tx button, trouble is it removes all formatting, so you then have to remember what you had and redo it. If you are selecting the text and it doesn't work, I have no idea why what would be?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@DavecUK - I'll try to reproduce what I did later on, will try to video it and will contact you via PM. Thanks! 👍


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

When a company has delivered thousands of grinders and never had this issue reported before they're not going to be particularly likely to take your word for it that you didn't use RDT and didn't have the grinder positioned in a place where it might come into contact with excessive moisture (e.g. it's in the kitchen, you put a steaming bowl of whatever down in front of it and the moisture goes up the spout and is absorbed by trapped coffee). I use the last example because I find myself almost doing it all the time just because of the layout of the kitchen. It's natural for the company to be sceptical about your claims given the rust present and natural for them to investigate it further. I'd expect them to refund you if they find anything wrong, if not good luck proving a manufacturing defect yourself.



> Likewise, the niche had only 10Kg of coffee through it and should not have needed cleaning other than when I attempted it. Much less, suffer the devastating failure it has.
> 
> Like I said in my post, if I had used it to grind 5 coffees a day the fault would have shown it's ugly face well inside the warranty period or recommended cleaning timeframe.
> 
> ...


 How have you come to the conclusion that the grinder needs to be cleaned based on how much coffee has been put through it rather than how long it has been used....obviously the grinder needs to have had SOME coffee put through it but after that, when the gaps have been filled (which happens very quickly) what makes you think it's a quantity and not a time issue? Corrosion happens over time, not because of quantities.

I think the problem here is likely to be use case. You haven't changed your grind setting. Changing grind setting coarse and finer will stop coffee getting trapped and help remove moisture build up within the coffee (it gets hot in there). The two other people you found who haven't cleaned their Niche in two years may well have been adjusting the grinder fairly regularly and thus the coffee would not be so compacted around the burrs.......this is actually a design fault. Depending on how often Niche recommend cleaning the burrs (not based on quantity) you may be able to claim the grinder is not fit for purpose based on the design, if this is the issue. I'm guessing it's extremely unusual for somebody not to change the grind setting (even using the same coffee) and this might not be something that was tested, especially over such a long period of time without cleaning. How often they recommend cleaning the grinder would be crucial (a period of time or throughput).



> I was shocked by Jame's response to my request to inspect the parts which, I found quite arrogant and condescending. But now, all of the sudden, when I ask for my parts back, they need to inspect them and, kept them without asking me if they could do so while ignoring my request to send them back. Yet more questionable behaviour.
> 
> As for those questioning ownership of the old parts. Please do excuse me but, I paid £500 for my unit plus another £200 to get it repaired. Whatever was in my unit belongs to me, that should be quite obvious to anyone that takes the time to think carefully.


 I don't know what you're referring to in the first part. Unfortunately, the law isn't something you can decide by simply thinking carefully. I have no legal knowledge and haven't consulted a solicitor, have you? If not, perhaps you should since you seem to be intending to go down that route. I'd be surprised if there wasn't a law allowing manufacturers to retain parts of faulty products for inspection so long as replacements are provided (whether you paid for them or not or paid a 'service fee'). They will probably have to return them to you if you request them in due time. I agree in principal the parts belong to you and you should have access to them should you want to fund your own independent investigation, and if they don't have to return the parts to you legally they probably will have to turn them over for independent study in any legal proceedings you bring. Why are you so reluctant to allow Niche to inspect the parts and report back to you their findings? They might refund you yet. Is this not a discussion you've had with them?


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

That's a fair point @Rob1 I never thought of that. You'd think most niche owners would be the type of users that are constantly changing the grind to suit a different bean / brew method and this would keep the top burr mobile. I switch between 2 different beans every day and occasionally adjust massively for filter. I assume this type of thing is common. Actually, it's probably one of the main reasons people buy the niche in the first place.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> When a company has delivered thousands of grinders and never had this issue reported before they're not going to be particularly likely to take your word for it that you didn't use RDT and didn't have the grinder positioned in a place where it might come into contact with excessive moisture (e.g. it's in the kitchen, you put a steaming bowl of whatever down in front of it and the moisture goes up the spout and is absorbed by trapped coffee). I use the last example because I find myself almost doing it all the time just because of the layout of the kitchen. It's natural for the company to be sceptical about your claims given the rust present and natural for them to investigate it further. I'd expect them to refund you if they find anything wrong, if not good luck proving a manufacturing defect yourself.
> 
> How have you come to the conclusion that the grinder needs to be cleaned based on how much coffee has been put through it rather than how long it has been used....obviously the grinder needs to have had SOME coffee put through it but after that, when the gaps have been filled (which happens very quickly) what makes you think it's a quantity and not a time issue? Corrosion happens over time, not because of quantities.
> 
> ...


 I am not going to answer everything you have raised here as I have provided information that covers most of it.

I hinted and gave James and Sam every opportunity to come forwards with an offer of good will in fact, when discussing the old parts, I actually said to Sam that had they had done the repair on good will, I would not have minded for them to keep and inspect them. But and since the repairs have come at a high cost and james replay to my deep inspection request, I was (and am) not confortable with them keeping them. Sadly No offer of good will has come forwards.

Shocked by the damage, I clearly instructed James to inspect the parts carefully for any signs of manufacturing defects. I have posted his answer in a previous post

Yes, I have issues with them keeping the parts because I specifically asked for them and, They only decided to "study" the parts after informing them of my intention to send them to a metallurgist. Why was this study not conducted when I asked James to look for defects and before deciding to charge me?

Another thing that has come to light. At around 2pm yesterday, I was informed by Sam that the grinder had been posted. I received a ping today from DPD saying they have just got it. If it was posted today and not yesterday, the parts may be included. I was under the impression the package had already left and was told by Sam the parts will not arrive with the unit. But, in view of the new information, I shall update accordingly.

The units are made in China and, manufacturing process are not free from errors. I did not abuse the product and, if missing 3 maintenance windows because of low usage, has resulted in catastrophic failure then I am of the opinion the unit was defective from factory

I understand they may privately question my honesty when I say I have not used water but, that's the truth and by the same hand, and knowing what usage and treatment the unit has had, I am entirely entitled to question their assessment.

And I am really done discussing this. it has taken enough of my time.

Have a great weekend.


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## 29244 (Feb 8, 2021)

El carajillo said:


> I have found the same, the warranty does not restart with a replacement.


 That is exactly what I said.


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## Del (Oct 31, 2020)

Man_Cave said:


> Like I said in my post, if I had used it to grind 5 coffees a day the fault would have shown it's ugly face well inside the warranty period or recommended cleaning timeframe.


 Doesn't oxidation occur over time? I'd argue that if more beans were put through it it'd be less likely to corrode as the beans would be exfoliating the burrs more regularly?



Man_Cave said:


> I did not abuse the product and, if missing 3 maintenance windows because of low usage, has resulted in catastrophic failure then I am of the opinion the unit was defective from factory


 In electrical testing, there are 3 categories of fault, C3, C2 and C1, meaning minor problem, serious problem and "someone may die" problem. Very rarely do these get better over time, only ever worse, lack of use as a defence just isn't a defence.

Personally, if I forgot/neglected to do something important 3 times, I'd hold my hands up and admit fault if it all went wrong. Yes a coffee grinder is designed to grind coffee, but a frying pan is designed to fry stuff and even a stainless steel one will look a mess if you can't look after it as the manufacturer recommends/common sense dictates.


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## Man_Cave (Feb 23, 2020)

Del said:


> Doesn't oxidation occur over time? I'd argue that if more beans were put through it it'd be less likely to corrode as the beans would be exfoliating the burrs more regularly?
> 
> In electrical testing, there are 3 categories of fault, C3, C2 and C1, meaning minor problem, serious problem and "someone may die" problem. Very rarely do these get better over time, only ever worse, lack of use as a defence just isn't a defence.
> 
> Personally, if I forgot/neglected to do something important 3 times, I'd hold my hands up and admit fault if it all went wrong. Yes a coffee grinder is designed to grind coffee, but a frying pan is designed to fry stuff and even a stainless steel one will look a mess if you can't look after it as the manufacturer recommends/common sense dictates.


 Firstly and if you had bothered to read everything, you would have realised that I have not dodged my part in this, I have admitted to not cleaning the unit.

You would have also read that the grinder was in use every day for a single dose of 18g .So going by your reasoning, the burrs were re seasoned every day with rare exceptions.

For damage of this calibre to occur in just 17 moths, and with only 10Kg through it, a defect of some description has to be at play here. As I have stated several times, other users have not cleaned their Niche for over two year with no issues.

My Mercedes Benz oxygen sensors which, are rated for 100K miles, failed while the car had only 28K on the clock but, with the car already 2 years out of warranty. Mercedes service fixed the issue under good faith without me needing to ask.

My Niche failed way before it should have alas, not such costumer service form Niche.

The fixed grinder arrives latter this evening. My faith in the brand has been completely destroyed and is un repairable. I won't be bothering with a metallurgist and the unit will be put up for sale immediately so that I can buy something more reliable from a reputable brand.

The old parts will be framed to remind me not to back small outfits again.

Now, this has not been a good experience for me so, if we could all stop beating a dead horse, it would be great. thanks.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Man_Cave said:


> My Niche failed way before it should have alas, not such costumer service form Niche.


 Niche has effectively charged you for brand new Mazzer Kony burrs. They replaced a lot more than they needed to replace from a product totally out of warranty, neglected for 17 months, where you went totally against the advice provided in the manual/user guide. (I.e.: deep clean after 3-6 months depending on usage).There are over 30k other units not having the same issue. It's always easy to blame the machine for sure, but you have gone against the advice here. You have to look at yourself and take the blame. Let's face it, Niche could have done nothing. But they did, and not only that - they did a lot more than what was required for no extra cost. In my book, that's called excellent customer service.

With all due respect, you need to stop beating the dead horse and accept you could have ended up with a far more expensive bill.

Let us know what's the next grinder manufacturer you choose. Do the same, keep in the exact same spot, treat it in the same way, and let us know what happens after 17 months of no adjustments or any cleaning. Would also know what your experience with the reseller/manufacturer will be.

Best of luck, over and out.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

I am not convinced that lack of cleaning the Niche is solely responsible for the problems found. I was a very early purchaser and for my sins have never opened up the grinder to clean it. This was on the basis that i understood the Niche had a very low volume of retained and exchanged grounds.

Prompted by this thread I did yesterday and fortunately for me no problems were discovered. The burrs were easy to remove, the base of the chamber remains in perfect order and the total volume of retained coffee removed by cleaning was 2.5g.

Something has caused the problems which were encountered in this thread, however I suspect it is not solely lack of cleaning unless i have just been very lucky and had a narrow escape.

I have no idea what else may have caused this but further investigation to pin it down, may allow further advice to be provided to prevent a recurrence for other users. It is accepted that currently the issue seems a very rare problem, given the number of units sold and reported cases so maybe Niche consider this too infrequent an issue to merit further investigation with potentially too many variables beyond their control to allow the root cause to be identified.

I do regularly change the grind settings for both espresso and pour over so as noted by @Rob1previously maybe this could be a factor. If so Niche could potentially consider amending their maintenance advice to include the need to periodically run the grinder on fine and coarse settings to prevent build up in the grind chamber.

I hope the OP finds a good alternative grinder and a pity that this issue has ruined their confidence in Niche, as my experience with the grinder has been excellent to date.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

Thinking this through further I realise that if the existing maintenance advice is followed that would also remove the build up so no further clarification required! My only excuse is it is late and I had not quite thought the logic through! 🙄


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Jollybean



Jollybean said:


> the base of the chamber remains in perfect order


 It would, the photos you saw were from Niche, and they dug out the floor of the grind chamber while investigating.



Jollybean said:


> It is accepted that currently the issue seems a very rare problem, given the number of units sold and reported cases


 Are there any other cases like this?


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