# New confused member.



## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Hello everyone,

This will be quite long so I apologise in advance.

I had my heart set on a Fracino Cherub, after reading through many posts on here and ask over the web I'm wondering if it's right for me.

I've had a Jura C5 for a while and it's OK but not as good as i hoped. What I do like about it is no warming up.

I like to make a coffee when I fancy one but I've been reading that you have to switch the Cherub on for half an hour to warm up and if you leave it on it brews too hot and costs a fortune in electricity, is this correct because I'd like to leave it on during evenings and when at home at weekends.

If you think the Cherub is OK for me, a first timer, it will leave me with max £200 including delivery for a grinder. I was thinking of the MC2 Challenge but don't know if I should get auto or dosing.

I have also been wondering, is the Cherub overkill for someone who enjoys a quality coffee but probably only three or four a day at weekends and a couple on evenings, with this in mind would I better with a Gaggia Classic? I read this review http://coffeegeek.com/reviews/consumer/gaggia_classic/J_Anderson

I would sometimes be making two drinks, one for my wife too, she loves the occasional flat white, would this affect the choice?

On the Jura , the water tank is detachable so I can empty it if I haven't used it all, how easy is it to empty the tank on the machines I have mentioned?

Do I also have to buy a water filter to prevent scaling or is it easy to descale?

The main thing is, I don't want to regret my purchase, I don't want to be thinking I should have bought the Cherub if I have the Classic or the other way round.

I was recommended the Cherub by Reg at Silver Pod Coffee after having one of his superb flat whites.

I'm looking forward to reading your advice so thank you in advance.

Phil


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Phil and welcome to Coffee Forums UK

A Cherub is better than a Classic as it is more consistent.

They do not cost a lot to run and I leave a Dual Boiler machine on around the clock over weekends and have a negligible power bill.

The machine will heat in 10-15 minutes - however - you should allow for all the metal parts to get up to temperature, not just the water inside the boiler (I won't go into the full reasons here - but trust me - you can taste the difference)

If your heart is not set on a brand new grinder then picking up a second hand Mazzer Super Jolly or similar for less than £200 will be a better bet.

If new, then consider a Eureka Mignon - far better than the MC2

The grinder is the more important purchase.

For water - use bottled water to prolong the life of the machine (and have a consistent variable)

I use Volvic in my machine and have no limescale build up after 3 years of daily use.

You do not need to empty the tank on the coffee machine.

Just keep topping up with fresh water and it is fine.

Hope this helps


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks,

That does help a little. I think I prefer the Cherub, it has hot water tap and a good steam wand by all accounts. Myespresso are selling the Cherub for £699. I am waiting for them to return from holiday on July 7th to see if they will do me a deal on a machine and grinder, if you have time could you look here please to see what you recommend sub £200 http://www.myespresso.co.uk/shop/coffee-grinders/page/2/ . I know the grinder is important but the machine is something I don't want to buy again due to the cost. I won't mind upgrading the grinder later on but I don't want tool relearn and get used to another machine.

Thank you so much for your help

Phil


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Have a chat with @coffeebean who does pretty good prices on Fracino Cherub machines

When you have 5 posts there is a Mignon for £210 which would be ideal!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Consider hand grinders too. I'm really impressed with the Lido E.

There won't be anything to 'relearn' when moving to another machine really (assuming it's not a lever or anything completely different). How much are the Sage Dual Boilers going for at the moment?


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Rob,

It's not just relearning, is depreciation, a £700 item will depreciate more than a £300 (grinder) item so to me it makes sense to buy an espresso machine I'm going to keep and a grinder to make do for now.

Cheers

Phil


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As said a grinder is key to tasty espresso ( along with great coffee ) . Shiny machine > poor grinder > espresso frustration


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## badger28 (Jan 5, 2013)

Skip the classic and go for the cherub. I have a cherub paired with a super jolly and it is perfect for 3 or 4 drinks per day.

The half an hour warm up is necessary. Without it the consistency drops.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

But surely you can get a half decent grinder for under £200 and keep the Cherub for years. I'm even more confused now. My budget is limiting me. I've been told to go for the Cherub so with my budget i need an economical grinder for twelve months.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks badger


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Have a look at the Sage Grinder Pro as an alternative to the MC2. Similar performance but much easier to live with.

The heatup time can be negated somewhat with a smart plug like the WeMo Insight, which you can programme to come on before you wake up or turn on and off from anywhere you have internet access on your phone. Means you rarely have that moment when you have to wait for your machine to heat up just as you are after a coffee.

I would also keep an eye out on the Amazon Prime day for the Sage Dual Boiler (a long shot, but worth checking). It's £1070 at the moment but that comes with a free grinder (https://www.sageappliances.co.uk/promotions). So if the price dips below £900 (which it has before) then you have a great package and a machine that heats up in a few mins (due to the type of group head design) with a lot more functionality than the Cherub.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

The secondhand market has many grinders at under £200. People suggest the Super Jolly because it is built like a tank and can be mildly modified to make it a better fit for use such as yours is expected to be. Truth be told though, if you have a particular model grinder in mind for the future, you may find something less expensive than a Super Jolly for now. Therein lies the rub. SJ's are more desirable than most and therefore hold their price a little better. Selling on later might be a bit easier too. Getting one now for less than £200 should be no trouble, someone on this forum may even have one which would probably be a better bet as it would be of known quality... unlike an ebay purchase.


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks, I'm always a little dubious about celebrity endorsed items like the Heston Bloomingheck range. I am always suspicious that the manufacturer makes exactly the same model without the celeb branding for 40% less. Anyway, today I had some seriously unexpected expenditure and that has put me behind on my purchase for a while.

I have been trying desperately to get a half decent foam tonight with my Jura C5. Any tips on that would be great. I hadn't used it much for the last few months due to lack of success but I had a lovely flat white at a food fair at the weekend and it has ignited my taste buds again. This is why I was really trying tonight. I've been using full fat milk, would semi skimmed help with the C5?

Cheers folks.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hmm - there is an MC2 in the for sale section for £60 - they are very capable grinders - the sage is actually made by Breville - available in the US by that name - although I might be wrong - 5 4 3 2 1 -

anyway re microfoam - the problem with the C5 will be that it has what is known as a easy foam device that artificially adds air into the milk - making it hard to create microfoam but easy to create large milky bubbles - your best bet is always use fresh milk - semi or full and once you have steamed the milk bang the jug on the worktop to pop the biggest bubbles.

IMHO - best see if you can sell it on ebay then with the money buy a second hand Gaggia Classic £100 and an MC2 £60 and away you go to great coffee, Ive had Krupps, delonghi and others and didn't realise how utterly crap they were until I got a classic and a decent grinder.

Good luck


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## ewancrallan (Apr 25, 2016)

Just adding my tuppence worth here... The SuperJolly I got from one of the members of coffeeforums earlier this year is running an absolute treat. For anyone thinking of getting one, I would heartily recommend Five stars


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Jimbojohn,

I'll have a look at that grinder when I am allowed, not enough posts yet. Maybe the Classic will be good for now until funds have restored. Can you get good foam with the Classic?

Cheers


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## Phil66 (Jul 3, 2016)

Thanks Ewan


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Phil66 said:


> Thanks Jimbojohn,
> 
> I'll have a look at that grinder when I am allowed, not enough posts yet. Maybe the Classic will be good for now until funds have restored. Can you get good foam with the Classic?
> 
> Cheers


Yes the classic is seen as the entry point to decent coffee and it foams well too - many don't move on from it and many come back to it - and don't worry about buying second hand as all parts are available, many swop the steam arm to one made by rancillo £12-15 - a cheap and easy upgrade. even the new classics come with a fake frother like the C5 but these just pull off - then you use as normal steam arm or pop on a rancilo arm - dead easy.

Many on here have 10yr old classics and still going strong - every krups, jura, delonghi, francis are in landfill after two years !


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Phil66 said:


> ...I'm always a little dubious about celebrity endorsed items like the Heston Bloomingheck range. I am always suspicious that the manufacturer makes exactly the same model without the celeb branding for 40% less...


They do that indeed (well at least in 2014 they did) - branded as Breville in places like Australia and NZ - at least 40% off with no endorsement.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Here is one of many milk steaming vids - as a starting guide -


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Phil66 said:


> Thanks, I'm always a little dubious about celebrity endorsed items like the Heston Bloomingheck range. I am always suspicious that the manufacturer makes exactly the same model without the celeb branding for 40% less. Anyway, today I had some seriously unexpected expenditure and that has put me behind on my purchase for a while.
> 
> I have been trying desperately to get a half decent foam tonight with my Jura C5. Any tips on that would be great. I hadn't used it much for the last few months due to lack of success but I had a lovely flat white at a food fair at the weekend and it has ignited my taste buds again. This is why I was really trying tonight. I've been using full fat milk, would semi skimmed help with the C5?
> 
> Cheers folks.


The Sage DB is actually pretty unrivalled at its price point for what it delivers, saturated group (quick heat up/good temp control), pre-infusion setting, electronic timed start up, easy to drain boiler... Other machines that offer this are £1600+. The Sage as a brand (or breville, which is a higher class kitchen good when not in the UK) has not been making espresso machines long enough to know if they will stand the test of time so it has that going against it.

A quick google suggests the AUS/NZ price without the celeb endorsement is around £870-950, if that means anything. Comparing prices from different markets is a little futile.


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