# Espresso advice please



## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Hi Everyone

Trying to understand how best to assess the espresso I have been making.

I am using Rave Brazil Capin Branco (https://ravecoffee.co.uk/collections/single-origin-coffee/products/brazil-fazenda-capim-branco)

Basically my shots always seem to come out tasting sour and acidic rather than bitter, never 'just right'.

Latest pull was; 20g dose, 42g out, 33sec time. Crema is ok.

This is using my new (to me) Alex mk2 HX machine, boiler set to 1.2 bar, good long flush before the pull. 9.5bar pump pressure. Volvic water.

When I turn this espresso into a flat white, it tastes great btw.

Am I searching for something that doesn't exist in taste terms from this bean? I have had incredible espressos from cafes which are totally balanced, but I just can't get it replicated at home.

One other thing, I have a Simonelli MDX (64mm flat burr) grinder, which the burrs feel blunt on. I have ordered some new ones but am not sure how much this may play into the taste I am getting.

Help!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

two things

That recipe is the same for every bean from Rave , so take it with a pinch of salt.

If it tastes good then what is the problem?

If you want experiment then change the grind etc but , what is lacking in the espresso , where is the imbalance ? Bearing in mind thats it's a natural , it may not be as " balanced " as a washed african coffee. Naturals can be a roller coaster ride of funk and booziness ..

If you are enjoying your coffee, then chill, enjoy , tinker with the recipe , make notes and try but relax knowing you are making something you really like.

Unless the burrs have had a substantial amount of coffee through em , then they should last years, don't expect new ones to be a magic bullet....

What was the great espresso that you had btw ?


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Thanks for the reply

The flat white was good - it is the espresso (ie that shot no milk) which tasted sour/acidic to me - but not sure if that is how it is supposed to be?

I'd prefer to drink espresso but I want to get it more balanced if I can. Or am I just using the wrong beans for that? (new to choosing blends/singles etc).

The best UK espresso - coffee shop in Leicester called Roma Cafe, backstreet, run by italians with the oldest triple head espresso machine I've seen. £1.20 per espresso and it's just incredible. I really must ask them what roast/beans they are using next time I am in there.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

itguy said:


> Thanks for the reply
> 
> The flat white was good - it is the espresso (ie that shot no milk) which tasted sour/acidic to me - but not sure if that is how it is supposed to be?
> 
> ...


I doubt that the place you frequent is using an Ethiopian natural . Odds on its some cheapish robusta blend but lets see. I am guessing but i suspect that roast level and bean origin are miles apart. Natural processed beans are a real marmite choice , you love em or hate em . They are not what one would describe as coffee tasting coffee. ( i like em btw )

Are you drinking the Roma Cafe espresso with sugar btw ( alot of Traditional espresso is served this )

Again balanced doesnt tell me what it tastes like though . This will help when choosing beans or recommending stuff.

Is it sweet ? bitter ? Thick ?


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Ok - no sugar in the espresso from Roma Cafe.

It is not sweet, but a nutty slightly bitter taste and a little thick, certainly not watery in any way. Crema that held until I finished the cup.

Does that help?


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## YerbaMate170 (Jun 15, 2015)

On the website of the cafe you mention, there's a photo of coffee and the cups have "Tosta D'oro" branding on them - perhaps this is the coffee they use.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

itguy said:


> Ok - no sugar in the espresso from Roma Cafe.
> 
> It is not sweet, but a nutty slightly bitter taste and a little thick, certainly not watery in any way. Crema that held until I finished the cup.
> 
> Does that help?


Yep , look for an something with those notes, from Rave perhaps Italian Job , from coffee compass perhaps Brighton Lane

My advice keep exploring all kinds of beans and tastes, take recipes as starting point , adjust em and see what happened though.

Those traditional Italian guys tend to pull shots but shorter 1:1.5-1.6 and the crema is proabably from some robusta in a blend . Robusta is not for me , its there to bulk out coffee blends , give it kick , on its own it tastes like arse....

But hey could be wrong , the cafe could be using top draw Central American coffee's . At £1.20 an espresso though i doubt it.

None of this in the end should make any difference to you, explore and buy and drink what you enjoy . Sounds like you might have a wide taste in coffee , which is a great thing and i would encourage you to try coffee of all types and roasts.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Italian Job is a good call if your after that style of coffee.


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Sorry to jump on board, but was interested to find out if itguy solved the problem?

I'm having the same issue, getting the same bitter/sour shots and I've tried changing grind, temperature and ratios and nothing is making much difference. Currently using the Colombian Suarezbeans from Rave but I can't replicate the smoother shots from cafés!


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

If it tastes too sour it is most likely underextracted, try tightening the grinder setting for a longer extraction. However, as already noted, some beans are hard to bring to a balanced cup, I've had this issue with Nicaragua from Hasbean, very sour until I've made a split shot, in the sense of letting the first 5-8ish grams of espresso go down the driptray and only catching the 'middle' stream which is sweeter, and also loosing the tail.

But that was kind of extreme to me anyway


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Stanic said:


> If it tastes too sour it is most likely underextracted, try tightening the grinder setting for a longer extraction. However, as already noted, some beans are hard to bring to a balanced cup, I've had this issue with Nicaragua from Hasbean, very sour until I've made a split shot, in the sense of letting the first 5-8ish grams of espresso go down the driptray and only catching the 'middle' stream which is sweeter, and also loosing the tail.
> 
> But that was kind of extreme to me anyway


If you only catching the middle bit then by standard terms it's as you say " under extracted " just a a point where the sweetness and strength is in the " hump " . I'd always recommend increasing the brew ratio to go past this into sweetness .

As always if there is sweetness in the brewed coffee at nominal brew ratios then you should be able to get a tasty espresso without dumping the start and end . You may just need to work harder and increase then brew ratio to 1:3 or 1:4 to get there.


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Cheers guys, I have tried pulling slightly longer shots to see if that helps but didn't make much difference and was pulling 1oz in about 30 secs!

My shots usually break the basket (start coming out), at around 2 secs, I read that about 5 secs is good, would this suggest too corse a grind?

Cheers for the help.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dang24 said:


> Cheers guys, I have tried pulling slightly longer shots to see if that helps but didn't make much difference and was pulling 1oz in about 30 secs!
> 
> My shots usually break the basket (start coming out), at around 2 secs, I read that about 5 secs is good, would this suggest too corse a grind?
> 
> Cheers for the help.


Weigh in an out as opposed to judging by volume ... unless you do that we can't help you . 1oz is not "a lot of espresso " per se " and means nothing without understanding its relationship to the dose used.

Whether is drops at 2 seconds or 5 seconds wont help you without knowing the dose in grams , the weight of espresso produced on grams , the time it took and how it tasted.


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Thanks, I'll try measuring the grams out as I've only measured the grams in which is usually 7g for a single and 14-14.4g for a double.

What's the ratio range in looking for, 1:1, 1:1.6?


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Don't bother with single 7g dose for start, these are much harder to get right than larger doses, stick to same dose say 14 grams at all times in the double basket and weight the output too, aiming at desired ratio (at 1:2 it would be 28g out in cca 28 seconds from starting the pump) by adjusting the grinder. Do you use Rancilio stock baskets?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Dang24 said:


> ... was pulling 1oz in about 30 secs! My shots usually break the basket (start coming out), at around 2 secs...


This may be too coarse a grind but my guess is that you have a distribution problem. Water is passing through one area of your puck more easily than the rest, and so you are only extracting a portion of your dose.

It's really worth taking the time to nail distribution issues first. Then you really can control speed of extraction with your grinder. Whisking your dose before putting it into your portafilter, naked portafilters, the WDT, level tamping... these are all things we try/do in the quest for even flow of water through the puck.


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Stanic said:


> Don't bother with single 7g dose for start, these are much harder to get right than larger doses, stick to same dose say 14 grams at all times in the double basket and weight the output too, aiming at desired ratio (at 1:2 it would be 28g out in cca 28 seconds from starting the pump) by adjusting the grinder. Do you use Rancilio stock baskets?


Thanks Stantic, I'll go back to a double basket and go for 1:2 ratio.

I actually have a la Spaziale mini vivaldi s1 (should update my signature!), but I'm using the standard la spaziale basket.


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Obnic said:


> This may be too coarse a grind but my guess is that you have a distribution problem. Water is passing through one area of your puck more easily than the rest, and so you are only extracting a portion of your dose.
> 
> It's really worth taking the time to nail distribution issues first. Then you really can control speed of extraction with your grinder. Whisking your dose before putting it into your portafilter, naked portafilters, the WDT, level tamping... these are all things we try/do in the quest for even flow of water through the puck.


Cheers, I do get an even distribution as I use a naked portafilter and don't seem to get any channeling. Definitely going to try playing around with the grind settings though.


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

So after trying about 40 shots at varying grind levels, 14g in 28g out, everyone was sour!

So come to the conclusion the beans are not made for espresso! Lol


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## Wes78 (Apr 18, 2017)

Dang24 said:


> So after trying about 40 shots at varying grind levels, 14g in 28g out, everyone was sour!
> 
> So come to the conclusion the beans are not made for espresso! Lol


did you try varying ratios of in - out.

i.e getting the best tasting ratio out and then adjusting grind to suit the same ratio you thought was best? The grind obviously affects the time but the weight (once happy with ratio) remains the same.

barista hustles Matt prefer did a very helpful video on dialling beans in.

dont get me wrong I don't do this every time, however, I do weigh shots to check consistency. I can't get enough consistency just looking at shots. So if I want a coffee I get one, if it comes out too fast/slow then so be it. I'll learn from it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dang24 said:


> So after trying about 40 shots at varying grind levels, 14g in 28g out, everyone was sour!
> 
> So come to the conclusion the beans are not made for espresso! Lol


If Brazilian coffee ain't made for espresso ....

You need to vary the ratio . Not the beans but the barista.

Easy to blame be beans - look within.

Look 1:2 is a start point not a universal key to all coffee happiness . Learn to adjust what you find based on taste.

Apologies you using the Suarez beans . All other advice still stands


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Check your temperature off-set on the machine. Switch it off, hold down the boiler button for 10 seconds, and see how many lights are lit. If there are none lit, then the machine is set to zero off-set and will probably be around 4 degrees lower than what the temperature is set to. Mine needed a +4*c off-set. Best to get hold of a K type thermocouple and digital thermometer to get it bang on. One way to check this is to go all the way up to 97*c setting and see if that improves the shot taste.

Another thing that you must do with the La Spaz is to pull 2 x 2oz flushes back-to-back before pulling your first shot or if the machine has been standing for more than 10 minutes.


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Wes78 said:


> did you try varying ratios of in - out.
> 
> i.e getting the best tasting ratio out and then adjusting grind to suit the same ratio you thought was best? The grind obviously affects the time but the weight (once happy with ratio) remains the same.
> 
> ...


Hi, I didn't try changing the ratio, thought I'd see if I could get a change in taste without changing too many things at once.

I'll give that a try tomoz, maybe try a 1:1.5 & 1:2.5 & see what differences I get. I know Rave are a guide but they state the best is 1:2 (20g in and 40g out) for the bean.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

@Dang24 sorry, earlier advice about distribution clearly under recognized where you are.

I like @Lake-m 's temperature suggestion. Darker beans often work better with short ratios. Lighter beans with longer ratios, lower doses and finer grind.


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## AndyZap (Dec 29, 2016)

Had similar problem with all beans I tried, incl Suarez - most of the shorts were a bit sour so had to increase the ratio to 1:2.2 or more. The PID on Gaggia is set to 102 C at the boiler, which *should* correspond roughly to 94 C in the brew head. Have not tried changing the temperature yet, but indeed the actual offset could be different for different machines. I.e. seems that I need to bump the temperature on mine to make it less sour at smaller brew ratio ... Oh well, so much to try ...


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

AndyZap said:


> Had similar problem with all beans I tried, incl Suarez - most of the shorts were a bit sour so had to increase the ratio to 1:2.2 or more. The PID on Gaggia is set to 102 C at the boiler, which *should* correspond roughly to 94 C in the brew head. Have not tried changing the temperature yet, but indeed the actual offset could be different for different machines. I.e. seems that I need to bump the temperature on mine to make it less sour at smaller brew ratio ... Oh well, so much to try ...


Did you manage to get a drinkable shot with a 1:2.2 ratio?

I've thought the same with the temperature, getting to get in the ball park before I play around with temperature!


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## AndyZap (Dec 29, 2016)

Dang24 said:


> Did you manage to get a drinkable shot with a 1:2.2 ratio?
> 
> I've thought the same with the temperature, getting to get in the ball park before I play around with temperature!


I *think* so (do not trust a newbie on this







) But this was the last short from a 250g bag, so could not confirm. Going to get a larger bag next time, 1 kg seems a good "newbie size"


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

AndyZap said:


> I *think* so (do not trust a newbie on this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well its about the taste at the end of the day, if it's alright for you. Just want to get mine to drinkable! Lol

I know what you mean, I always get a kg bag from Rave, it's taken me half the bag at the moment with all the playing around!!


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Here's a radical suggestion. Get a bag of Mahogany Roast Malabar from CoffeeCompass. Pull it short say 1:1.6 or 1.7 in 30-35 seconds at 94c. That blend extracts easily to give thick sweet slurp. It is a dark roast though.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am old school and drink nowt but dark stuff. I still prefer to go 60% of dry weight extracted in roughly 25 seconds. Personally, I find a 2:1 extraction far too watered down and I refuse to drink any light stuff!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I am old school and drink nowt but dark stuff. I still prefer to go 60% of dry weight extracted in roughly 25 seconds. Personally, I find a 2:1 extraction far too watered down and I refuse to drink any light stuff!


I think you maybe mean dry weight divided by 60% (1:1.67 ratio)?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Duplicate post


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Obnic said:


> Here's a radical suggestion. Get a bag of Mahogany Roast Malabar from CoffeeCompass. Pull it short say 1:1.6 or 1.7 in 30-35 seconds at 94c. That blend extracts easily to give thick sweet slurp. It is a dark roast though.


Cheers, I once I'll get through the next kilo and a half, I'll give it a try. Still pulling sour shots and tried loads of different ratios, grinds and temperatures. Think I'll go back to my flat white s and try again with more forgiving beans!! Lol


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Ok, maybe someone can help unconfuse me. After reading a few bits and pieces, I'm confused how I can achieve a ratio within a given time if I'm changing the grind level and starting dose,

Is time not important? If I'm after a 1:2 ratio in say 28 secs, and comes out sour I need to grind finer as it's under extracted but will lengthen extraction time so how do I keep the same time without changing any other variable? Dose in will change the ratio and tamping will change the flow rate!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ignore time , as a variable in stopping a shot work to a brew ratio. By all means note time it's taken. Adjust then via taste .


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ignore time , as a variable in stopping a shot work to a brew ratio. By all means note time it's taken. Adjust then via taste .


Oh ok, that makes sense. Surely you can only have one variable and grind level will get more of less out of a bean.

So aim for the ratio and take the shot to the point of blonding if going for a standard espresso?

Cheers for your help


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dang24 said:


> Oh ok, that makes sense. Surely you can only have one variable and grind level will get more of less out of a bean.
> 
> So aim for the ratio and take the shot to the point of blonding if going for a standard espresso?
> 
> Cheers for your help


I never worked to a blonding point, Work to a ratio , note time, taste, adjust ....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Dang24 said:


> Oh ok, that makes sense. Surely you can only have one variable and grind level will get more of less out of a bean.
> 
> So aim for the ratio and take the shot to the point of blonding if going for a standard espresso?
> 
> Cheers for your help


Aim for the ratio, adjust grind, taste, adjust grind, taste...

If you kill the shot at blonding you will likely under-extract, the colour of beverage coffee is not a reliable guide as to how much has been dissolved into the drink.


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Ok, cheers guys I'll give that a go.

Not that I've got it, I do feel the beans aren't great for espresso as the sourness doesn't seem to change much with any changes I make but I'll keep going! Lol


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Grind finer to lose the sourness, if you can't shake it at your current brew ratio, move to longer brew ratio.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dang24 said:


> Ok, cheers guys I'll give that a go.
> 
> Not that I've got it, I do feel the beans aren't great for espresso as the sourness doesn't seem to change much with any changes I make but I'll keep going! Lol


Is this the Suarez still ?


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is this the Suarez still ?


Hi yeah it is, thought I'd stick to the same bean!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dang24 said:


> Hi yeah it is, thought I'd stick to the same bean!


As a medium

Dark roast should be less acidic . Sourness = under extraction . Keep going , it's a bean roasted for espresso ( as opposed to filter ) .


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## Dang24 (Apr 20, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> As a medium
> 
> Dark roast should be less acidic . Sourness = under extraction . Keep going , it's a bean roasted for espresso ( as opposed to filter ) .


Cheers, I'll play around with the ratios without worrying to much about the time and hopefully should get closer to being more drinkable! Lol


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## AndyZap (Dec 29, 2016)

Should I aim at the other' ratios? E.g. in the Beans/Suarez thread the recommendation is to use less than 1:2 ratios (1:1.8 - 1:1.9). For me even 1:2 was too sour, and I liked the shot 18g>40g in 38 sec. I do use the WDT and bottomless PF, so this does not look like the channelling issue. Shall I try increasing the temperature on the PID? How critical is to have the time within 25-30 sec (i.e. is 38 sec is too long, and another reason for experimenting with the temperature?)

Also a question about tasting - I stir the coffee with crema and taste straight after the shot. As it cools down, the taste changes (e.g. getting more sour), so seems there is no point leaving it for longer, e.g. to compare with the next shot. Is this how to taste, e.g. need to make your mind right after the shot, no reason trying again a few minutes after?


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