# Slate My V60 Technique -AKA Should I Get a Kalita Wave?



## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Hi Coffee Nerds, I am in need of some expert help.

After yet another 'meh' cup from my V60, I found myself googling Kalita Wave prices (having just missed one in the For Sale section). This is partly because I recall reading, in various places, that they are a more forgiving way to get good drip coffee, and partly because I have had some delicious cups via a Kalita Wave in Pink Lane Coffee (albeit made using an EK43).

So whilst my basic question is "should I just sack off the Hario and buy a Kalita", I will present as much detail as possible, to try and draw upon your collective expertise.

My current setup is...

Grinder: Iberital MC2

Filter: Ceramic V60

Papers: 01 Japanese made, always rinsed

Water: Waitrose Lockhills

Scales: Cheapo

Kettle: Magicafe gooseneck

Technique: Always 60g/L, usually as 15g/250ml. Immediately off the boil from a gas hob. Always fresh, UK roasted speciality-type coffee (eg. currently Modern Standard Colombia Aromas Del Sur, prior to that Origin Das Almas). In terms of technique, I have tried Scott Rao, James Hoffman, MWJB's bloom + 6 pours, the recent Scandi one wher you kind of dump it all in in two pours...basically lots of different ways.

I'm sure that there was a time, in the past, where I was getting delicious results and plenty of discernable tasting notes, but for a long time now my V60 results are just *samey, muddled, slightly acrid and thin*, no matter which coffee or technique I use. It's now at the point where I don't want to waste good coffee on my V60, as it's so rare that I get a good cup.

I have attached a couple of photos of my grind, and of a slurry from today (it's a bit lumpy as I poured the final 100ml down the middle and disturbed the bed, but they generally come out flat).

I'd appreciate any insights or advice offered. Thanks!


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)




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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Your grind seems quite uneven, and might be on the coarser end.

Basically you can use a coarser espresso grind if you want to, this is the easiest way to eliminate under extraction, on the negative side it can be a bit more challenging to use.

Normally there are 3 settings where the grinder deliver the best this is at a coarser espresso setting, a very fine filter grind and a coarser filter grind, on my grinder that is 3.5, 6, 8.5 I usually don't need to change many notch from those 3 settings when going from one coffee to another.

Mostly I just change the coffee to water ratio, usually people don't really over extract they under exstract and brew so the grinds rub against each other resulting in bitterning of the brew.

I'm not going to tell which brew method, as it's also somehow related to taste preferences, but most of those you mentioned work, but you'll need to stick to one and not changing back and forward as that introduce to much noise.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

malling said:


> Your grind seems quite uneven, and might be on the coarser end


 Thanks for the reply, I'll try tightening my grind tomorrow. I do wonder whether the grinder is the weak link - I do have a much better grinder, but keep it set for espresso. I'd like to get a Commandante C64, but want to be sure that I'm at least getting 'good' pour-over before I commit any more.

The characteristics I'd like to pursue are sweetness and clarity.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

I just noticed that you use a 60g/l dose, so I would advice you to start with a higher dose, or use less water to change the ratio, and then you can always add more water/reduce the dose or keep going in the other direction depending on what happens.

Start with 65g/L

If that doesn't help, then you can change the grind.

You could also get a kruve sifter and remove the boulders, and stir the remaining and use that. As the grind with lesser grinder is bit uneven.

it can be a bit problematic to see on a picture if the grind is to coarse or not.


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## Squidgyblack (Nov 18, 2019)

Are you timing your pours/drawdown?

Matt Perger's recipe is always a good starting point and can be scaled on volume. You'll have to grind a bit finer, but give it a shot and adjust your grind to try and hit the brew time:

200ml water
12g coffee
Pour 50g bloom and stir
@:30 pour 50g
@1:00 pour 100g.
Total time 2:20


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

The problem with that advice , is that if you use a less soluble coffees then you generally need a higher dose to water ratio. I have experienced anything from 65g/l all the way up to 80g/l and to low a dose is generally a problem that you encounter, because people have been convinces about the ideal dose, but the ideal dose is from a time where the roast where generally speaking more soluble.

The other problem is that people generally grind to coarse, a leftover from the time with darker and more developed roast ( you see allot of guides and videos that recommend that)

The third is the technique that is either uneven and let the grind rub against each other. A pour should be repeatable, steady and level, eg not going up and down on a vertical plane and with varying flow .

The fourth problem is the water.

The fifth the grinder.

Pergers recipe is designed with his roasting profile, his coffee is generally more developed than what you'll find at the lighter spectrum in europe.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

The grinder could be the weak point. They are not a bad grinder but I suspect you may well be seeing quite a bit of uneven particle size which will of course lead to uneven extraction.

The MC5 is a commercial grinder. Did you buy it used? It could be the burrs are blunt if it has seen a lot of use. Blunt burrs tend to crush rather than cut and will not produce good results.

You mention you have a better grinder. Perhaps give that a go. You can at least then figure out if the grinder is indeed the problem.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Squidgyblack said:


> Matt Perger's recipe is always a good starting point


 This one sounds good and simple, and might work if I'm tightening my grind. My drawdown generally comes somewhere between 2:45 and 3:30, depending on which technique I'm trying.



malling said:


> Start with 65g/L


 I'll try that, thanks.



BlackCatCoffee said:


> The grinder could be the weak point.


 I think it probably is. It's an MC2 (not an MC5 as I originally wrote), and was my starter grinder for many years (it's over 10 years old!) for espresso. My espresso grinder now is a Macap MXD, with big flat burrs.

I am reluctant to 'lose' my current espresso setting, as the MXD has a very fine/slow worm drive for adjustment, but you are right - I can test whether it's the grind by switching grinders.

I have searched before for "MC2 filter" to see what people make of them for filter coffee, (particularly as other cheap grinders like the Wilfa Svart are well rated) but there doesn't seem to be much info. Perhaps that says it all!

Thanks for all the suggestions so far ?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

The Wilfa is OK I sold my one and bought a Feld 2 I could tell the difference straight away. Plus water is really important which I never knew, and still struggle with it.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

Take out the burrs and test the sharpness the burrs might be dull after so many years of use. it sounds like a plausible explanation for you somewhat noticeable uneven grind.

It is probably time for an upgrade, as you are long over the expected lifespan of such a grinder.

Yes a good handgrinder would be fine, and won't set you back to much.

But yes you can try Perger's recipe, but do use a higher dose. But also stick with it, even if it dos not instantly deliver the desired results, change the other variables such as ratio and grind setting. Allot of newer roast do work better with a finer grind and higher dose, so if both of these are way off you won't get good results.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

There is no reason to replace your V60 with a Kalita. They don't do anything significantly different.

V60 is as repeatable as any brewer/method.

In your earlier post you seem to be chopping & changing methods a lot. Stop. Every time you do this, you need to dial in grind to match. (BTW I have never, absolutely never suggested brewing with 250g of brew water because it is a PITA for determining pulse weights).

If you get the MC2 in a suitable range, there is no real need to change your grinder either.

Stop wasting your Lockhills with rinsing the paper.

If you want clarity go as coarse as you can while extracting well.

Up the brew ratio.

Dose 13.3g, pour 20g every 20s in spirals, up to 200g total. This is the lowest common denominator method...you stick to the pour regime & just adjust grind. It works with the widest range of grinders. If you get significant standing liquid above the bed, bring the spiral to the centre for the remainder of that pour.

Report back between each brew (by chopping & changing everything, saying you have tried a bunch of methods and it's all 'meh', essentially means that brewing in a V60 can't be possible, if this is true, making coffee can't be possible because V60 is as consistent as any other method).

Hoffmann's method *is* the Rao method, the April method and all of these work. I found the Rao/Hoffmann method made for a more silty cup at these brew sizes (neither of these gentleman show a method for 250g brews), the April method makes for a cleaner, brighter cup at a lower side extraction.

A video would be good, to see how aggressively you are pouring (water should fall straight down from the spout).


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

To be more correct the Hoffmann is a modified Rao, they are not 100% the same. Rao uses a spoon in the blooming phase to excavate the grinds, Hoffmann advice against it, instead his advice is swirling the brewer to get all grinds saturated, he also split his pours so 60% are in within a narrow timeframe and remaining 30sec after. But yes the fundamentals is the same, just with slight differences.

I agree that either version is best suited for bigger brews. Rao uses a 360g and Hoffmann a 500g brew. In my test you shouldn't go below 330g, although Hoffmann do mention a 250g brew with the method, I would generally not advice it.

So for smaller brews like a 200-250g you need to follow different recipe, like Perger, a multiple pouring regime where you split the volume and time up in equal sizes or other recipes that has a one cup brew in mind, many of these follow the logic of a constant water level and that grinds should never be above water level after the blooming phase.

Allot or well most of them that follows a flat bed regime works, but it's important that you stick to one and not constantly change it.

The only thing that should be changed is dose, grind setting and time.

However the larger brew recipes are generally easier to learn as there are fewer steps and they don't demand the same amount of control that smaller brews do, hitting 20-30g pours within shorter intervals is obviously more difficult then pouring all in at once/twice.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

malling said:


> However the larger brew recipes are generally easier to learn as there are fewer steps and they don't demand the same amount of control that smaller brews do, hitting 20-30g pours within shorter intervals is obviously more difficult then pouring all in at once/twice.


 No, it's easier. Pouring say 300g in one pour in say 45s is very difficult, without speeding up & slowing down the pour. Pouring 20g every 20s (each pour taking about 10s), is as easy as falling off a log (no stiring or swirling necessary if the grind is right) & importantly very repeatable. It just takes a bit longer, but that's the point...with a coarse grind (because you want clarity) & smaller dose you need to slow the flow of water down to get a ball-park extraction.

Rao has lately recommended swirling the bloom (he did this prior to the Hoffmann video).

Bigger brews don't require less steps, they require a faster flow rate to avoid over-extraction. This typically means larger pours, or a single pour, at the same grind setting. But the goal is always to pour the water to the chosen weight, uniformly, at the same pour rate...not simpler/more complicated, just what you have to do do get a consistent result.


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## malling (Dec 8, 2014)

MWJB said:


> No, it's easier. Pouring say 300g in one pour in say 45s is very difficult, without speeding up & slowing down the pour. Pouring 20g every 20s (each pour taking about 10s), is as easy as falling off a log (no stiring or swirling necessary if the grind is right) & importantly very repeatable. It just takes a bit longer, but that's the point...with a coarse grind (because you want clarity) & smaller dose you need to slow the flow of water down to get a ball-park extraction.
> Rao has lately recommended swirling the bloom (he did this prior to the Hoffmann video).
> Bigger brews don't require less steps, they require a faster flow rate to avoid over-extraction. This typically means larger pours, or a single pour, at the same grind setting. But the goal is always to pour the water to the chosen weight, uniformly, at the same pour rate...not simpler/more complicated, just what you have to do do get a consistent result.


We have to agree to disagree on this.

I must have missed the part of Rao changing point of view. Hoffmann has brewed this way before the launch of his video, so who was first of the two, is hard to tell.

However we do agree to the point, that larger brews require faster flowrates and those typically fewer pours of the same grind setting (usually no more than 2-4 or a single pour) why you usually use a bit different brew techniques compared to smaller brews. But I don't think we'll ever agree on the easiness of the two, for me a larger pour of constant flow is as easy as sleeping, as keeping it level and steady is mostly what it requires, if you lack the necessary arm strength or concentration then perhaps it might be easier with multiple pours. But for allot I cannot see it should be easier hitting 20 or so grams every interval, not without some sort of restrictor in the gooseneck as most of these kettle has pretty poor pour control. The multiple pour technique also requires more calculations either prior or in your head, and in that regard can be a bit more tricky if you don't use one that is easy dividable and that is easy to see on the clock and weight, the downside of that is odd brew sizes and dose weight.

And yes I use both method, as most do.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

malling said:


> The multiple pour technique also requires more calculations either prior or in your head, and in that regard can be a bit more tricky if you don't use one that is easy dividable and that is easy to see on the clock and weight, the downside of that is odd brew sizes and dose weight.


 Precisely why I suggested easy weights & intervals earlier in this thread,

There's no right brew size nor dose weight, so there can't be odd ones either.

If you have a particular cup/set of cups that hold the same amount, that you regularly use, then fill it to the brim with cold tap water & weigh how much water it holds. Then brew with that amount of brew water, or about 10g less (whatever makes for easiest to remember, without calculation, pulses). No one will really notice the difference between 210g or 200g in the cup...you could get that much difference by switching between different brewers keeping all else the same.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Dose 13.3g, pour 20g every 20s in spirals, up to 200g total. This is the lowest common denominator method...you stick to the pour regime & just adjust grind. It works with the widest range of grinders. If you get significant standing liquid above the bed, bring the spiral to the centre for the remainder of that pour.


 Thank so much. Really detailed, specific advice.

I will try this, this afternoon and report back.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Ok, I have tried the above method, 20g every 20s, and have some improved results already.

For the first attempt I tightened my grind by 15 turns on the MC2, yielding this:
View attachment 38091


I found it tricky to fully wet the grounds with a 20g bloom, so gave it a swirl after the first two pours. I then started getting an almost dry bed, at 160g and 180g. The brew finished at 3:24, with this sort of bed:








The resulting cup immediately had more acidity and brightness than my recent efforts. My wife asked if I'd got some different beans!

I then tightened the grind by a further 10 turns and got this:








I brewed again with the same method, and didn't get dry-down until 4:30, which looked like this:








This cup also had more pleasant acidity, but also had the slightly astringent, muddy, overly roasty taste that I've been trying to avoid. I think I managed to pour in a more gentle, consistent way, second time around.

I have drank as much coffee as I can drink for today, but will try again tomorrow (after my morning espresso, of course), with any pointers gratefully received.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I think you went a bit fine for the 2nd brew.

There's not such a thing as a correct brew time, but I'd expect dry bed between 3:15 and 3:40 most of the time


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

I am continuing to go coarser. I brewed this morning and finished up at 4:00. The resulting cup was still a bit toasty.

I went 10 turns coarser just now, and it finished up at 3:55. Still tasting a bit harsh, dry and dusty.

I've checked on the Barista Hustle compass, and the descriptors I'm getting are all around the "East" and partly the "South" - things like dry, dusty, bitter, powdery, astringent, empty, muted. If I follow the compass it's suggesting that my brews are over extracted and slightly weak. It suggests that to improve, I should EXTRACT LESS (coarser grind and/or shorter brew time), and maybe use MORE COFFEE (currently doing 13.3g/200ml). I am inclined to stick with this ratio, and just look at grinding coarser and maintaining the same gentle pour technique.

On the plus side, I'm getting some lovely looking brews!


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

Driven by the lingering frustration of "is it the grinder?", I have attached a couple of photos of grinds from my 10+ year old MC2, against white paper:


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pictures of grinds are a waste of time.

Over-extracted at 67g/L won't be weak. You could try 70g/L (14/200g)

Powdery does not describe over-extraction specifically. Extraction excludes non-dissolved solids, powdery suggests a tactile experience, which suggests you are grinding too fine and/or pouring too aggressively. You don't know what your extraction is, all bitterness/dryness/astringency is not caused by over-extraction..you can have powdery & under brews. Over-extraction is bitterness like smoke/bitter hop.

The seems to be a fair bit of floating oil & fine particulate, this also suggests you are a bit fine/too aggressive...after stirring this should be visually less evident, but there will always be some.

I have successfully used this brew method with a blade grinder, it is very unlikely your grinder is the issue in terms of grind quality, it is very likely it is the issue in terms of grind setting.

BTW I very rarely enjoy drinking coffee from a glass, may be psychosomatic, but I always drink out of ceramic (despite owning lots of glasses I specifically bought to drink coffee out of).

A video of a brew would be more help than photos of grind.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Over-extracted at 67g/L won't be weak. You could try 70g/L (14/200g)


 Ok, I will keep the dose the same, or try 14g.



MWJB said:


> Over-extraction is bitterness like smoke/bitter hop.


 Yes! This is what is like. I almost feel like I've been smoking, 5 minutes after drinking it! I usually love bitter hops, but definitely not in this context!



MWJB said:


> ...this also suggests you are a bit fine/too aggressive


 I will try coarser, but feel like the bed will soon start going dry in between pours. Will make an effort to pour as gently as possible.



MWJB said:


> successfully used this brew method with a blade grinder, it is very unlikely your grinder is the issue...


 I accept this?. I just can't escape the notion that I'm getting a large amount of fines, which are contributing to this inescapable bitterness and over extraction. It's exactly that though - a notion, and nothing more.



MWJB said:


> BTW I very rarely enjoy drinking coffee from a glass,


 I know what you mean, I can never get away with espresso out of a glass vessel. The thing is, I don't really possess an ideal ceramic cup for filter coffee, and am loathed to buy any more coffee stuff! I love the cork coaster that my glass cups come with, but I'll try switching to this one:








Thanks very much for all the help, I appreciate it and I'm frustrated at not being able to enjoy filter at home.

I will keep refining, then post a video when I have cleared some storage space on my phone!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Pouring at this rate, it doesn't matter if the bed does dry out between pours, this may well happen up until the 8th/9th pour.

To reduce particles under a certain size, grind coarser - all grinders make fines at all settings, if having 30% under 600um (for example & not a determination of fines) is an issue, going coarser will reduce this.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Coffee tasting roasty is almost certainly due to roast and not so much due to brewing. Also it's not given that just because a roaster is well known / famous, the specific roast you have will be great.

You can brew with a bit cooler water (i.e. 94-95C) for darker roasts. I think it's very difficult to truly overextract in a small V60 brew (burnt rubber, heavy smoky flavours), but brews can get muddy and silty if too fine. In general as MWJB pointed out coarser grinds and higher dose is much more forgiving and give more pleasant, clean brews than trying to grind as fine as possible, and that's why you'll see many coffees use this approach when serving V60s.

Basically people generally way overestimate how much difference in taste brewing can make - many times it's due to roast.


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## CoolingFlush (Aug 4, 2019)

the_partisan said:


> Coffee tasting roasty is almost certainly due to roast and not so much due to brewing.


 Damn it, I'm going to have to seek out some even lighter roasts, to try!⚫🐇 I am certainly preferring this bean as espresso, and getting more of the "orange, buttery body" tasting notes via that method.



the_partisan said:


> You can brew with a bit cooler water (i.e. 94-95C)


 Will give this a go soon.



the_partisan said:


> coarser grinds and higher dose is much more forgiving


 This is the way I'm heading at the moment, and it's helping.

I have continued with the 20g/20s method, but have changed one thing (sorry!); I have switched to using my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and for whatever reason it immediately improved the results. It's an old "151 West Germany" one, sometimes called Brasilia, which does have the usual little bit of burr wobble, but is working well for me. (I also have a PeDe /Diennes one, which still has the €6.50 stock on the bottom from a Dutch market, but I haven't tried it for over a year).

Next step: lighter roasted beans, same method.

Thanks for the help.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Id love one of these old school grinders just to have a play


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