# Help troubleshooting loss of blueberries?



## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Hi,

I am struggling to figure out whats going on with my beans. Any thoughts would be very welcome.

Last month I purchased some Has Bean Ethiopia Ana Sora Guji Natural for espresso/cappuccino via my la pavoni - Amazing blueberries! I drank it around 2-3 weeks after roast date.

I purchased some more. On Day 3 after roast date I got the amazing blueberries and also some lovely parma violets which were mentioned on the pack but not noticed in the first batch.

I went away for a couple of days and then from Day 6-11 I have not had any blueberries at all. I've cleaned everything out (short of dismantling the pavoni, although cooled water poured from it tastes clean), pour from 1h+, gently adjusted some settings then more violently adjusted them in desperation. I'll return to dialing it back in today (day 13).

I've wasted almost 500g of beans trying to find the blueberries again so any thoughts on what happened and where to go from here would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's going to be very difficult to help without you telling us what those adjustments were & the impact they had.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Hi MWJB

Good point.

At first I didn't collect data from the first batch as it was great with just a few minor tweaks. Tweaks didn't work for the second batch.

Ballpark figures for batch 1:

15g in

24-30g out (experimented a little but all had lovely blueberries)

10 second pre-infusion

very fine grind (just short of clogging machine and grinds entering coffee)

very firm tamp

Good body & crema

lots of lovely blueberries as espresso and also held up to milk

Batch 2:

March 10 - Day 3 after roast was better than batch 1 with blueberries and a long lingering blueberry finish.

March 13 - Day 6 - No blueberries. Coffee undrinkable over all of seven shots. I adjusted grind to no avail.

March 16 - Day 9 - *Very funky flavour *developing. No Blueberries. Experimenting with completely different grind and extractions - futile.

March 17 - Day 10 onwards - See spreadsheet.

In general:

If it was bitter, I ground coarser and or stopped short, if it was sour I ground finer and/or poured longer

If it was coming out slow I tamped lighter and/or ground coarser

if it was without body I ground finer and/or pulled harder.

The machine was left on for a minimum of 1 hour before pouring with a flush through the group head between shots.

Timings - when I lift the lever I can hear the water filling the grouphead over 4-5 seconds. I then start pulling lightly for 8-15 seconds until coffee starts pouring out. I then pull firmer for 15-20 seconds

Temperature of water = 97C after last shot of day on 20/3/17 and just after switching itself off after a heating cycle. Measured by lifting lever and letting water/steam pour out over thermometer until temperature stabilises.

edit: trying to find a way to make the spreadsheet readable....

pdf of spreadsheet added.









coffee ss.pdf


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Those greens are possibly getting on a bit now. African coffees (i.e. the green beans) can fall off a cliff dramatically at the end of their life. Very fresh crop is always best and the fruit flavours really pop.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Hi Gary.

Thanks.

Its my first time with African coffee actually. What is a typical season for them and how much of a window would you recommend?

I've added a pdf to my above post now.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

@PreCoffeeCantankerousness maybe try importing the spreadsheet into google drive & post a link, or print it off, scan & save as a PDF/JPEG on a hosting site?

I'd try and keep the tamp & output constant, 24-30g is a 20% difference in shot weight.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

MWJB said:


> @PreCoffeeCantankerousness maybe try importing the spreadsheet into google drive & post a link, or print it off, scan & save as a PDF/JPEG on a hosting site?
> 
> I'd try and keep the tamp & output constant, 24-30g is a 20% difference in shot weight.


Thanks - I've added a pdf below the screenshot which can be downloaded ok at my end. Hopefully you should be able to get it now....?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Cheers.

Maybe try grinding finer, do you have some Aeropress papers, if concerned about grit in the cup, line the basket with it.

Looks like shots 5-7 today were improving, shot 8 might just have been bolstered by the bigger dose?


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Yes, the larger dose, which is pretty much on the limit of the pavoni does help the strength and flavour come out more with milk.

I tried going finer this morning. Good crema but no blueberries.

I contacted Chris at Has Bean and had a good technical discussion. The beans are now going back for testing. Looking forward to the results and then see where to go from there.

Very impressed with the level of service from Has Bean!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Hi - just a thought , are you weighing to the nearest gram or to 0.1g - I find with a pre millennium pav that even the variance of 0.2g will make a huge difference to lever resistance, tamp and taste. The other thought and again its a pre mill I'm using is that after every shot I find there is stale coffee grounds lurking around the sides of the shower screen - your post mill may have less issue with this - anyway try twisting a piece of kitchen roll and running it around the gap between the shower screen and the group seal.

Last thought - how old is the machine, is it time for new piston and group seals.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Hmm but those things would develop over time, whereas PCCs loss of blueberry notes seemed to happen between one batch of beans and another.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Hi Hotmetal & Jimbo

Thanks.

Has Bean are sending me another batch of Ana Sora to try and I've sent mine off to them to see how they get on with them.

How long after roasting do you think would be best for drinking for getting the blueberry notes?

Its also useful to rule out that its not just my tastebuds. My brother loved the first batch and has the same problem with the second.

Running through procedures:

I do measure to 0.1g.

I use a grouphead brush cleaner between shots. If I see grinds in a flush I take a wet Q-tip and bend it to reach above the shower screen.

I balance tamp pressure and volume of grinds in pf so that the shower screen does not touch the coffee grinds or have too much of a distance between the two. I find the former requires more cleaning and the latter results in channelling.

Its a post millennium Pavoni Europiccola purchased new 2 years ago. I dismantled, serviced, lubricated with dow corning molykote 111, & replaced the seals about 10 bags ago.

After the first batch of Ana Sora, I



dismantled and cleaned the grinder (toothbrush & toothpick)


Had a different bag of coffee


dismantled and cleaned the grinder


cleaned the pf with bicarbonate of soda & pipe cleaner


Tried some of the new batch of Ana Sora


dismantled and cleaned the grinder


cleaned the pf with bicarbonate of soda & pipe cleaner


Tried some more Ana Sora


dismantled and cleaned the pf and basket with Urnex Cafiza 2 & pipe cleaner. Wound ptfe tape over the thread and reassembled the pf.


cleaned above the shower screen with a wet, bent q-tip.


Taste test of water running through once it cooled was clean.


Tried some Ana Sora


Still no blueberries.


Between shots its



dismantle and rinse pf & basket.


dry basket


brush on and around around & flush shower screen


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

hotmetal said:


> Hmm but those things would develop over time, whereas PCCs loss of blueberry notes seemed to happen between one batch of beans and another.


Nope, ''falling off a cliff'' is a coffee term when the greens deteriorate literally from one week to the next. Ive witnessed it many a time with african coffees.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yes that's what I meant in my post - could it be the beans rather than deteriorating seals, stale coffee in nooks and crannies or behind the screen etc. Although right enough I didn't realise that beans could go off that quick. Glad I've found that out because my fave coffee is Ethiopian Natural.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Nope, ''falling off a cliff'' is a coffee term when the greens deteriorate literally from one week to the next. Ive witnessed it many a time with african coffees.


Well... I had another batch and still no blueberries. So perhaps this is it. Is there a way to tell if a green coffee bean is fresh? Do they advertise 'Picked dates' or something? Is there any guidelines or rule of thumb for how soon to have them?

This is my first time with african beans and I've gone from the nicest coffee I have ever had to drinking instant in front of a stack of undrinkable beans. Gutted!

edit:

In hindsight I'd better clarify 'undrinkable' as an emotional response rather than a physical one. Its certainly not vomit inducing, but merely devoid of the characteristics I loved and purchased it for. The only thing I'd find in making a cup of it is frustration - hence the instant.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PreCoffeeCantankerousness said:


> Well... I had another batch and still no blueberries. So perhaps this is it. Is there a way to tell if a green coffee bean is fresh? Do they advertise 'Picked dates' or something? Is there any guidelines or rule of thumb for how soon to have them?
> 
> This is my first time with african beans and I've gone from the nicest coffee I have ever had to drinking instant in front of a stack of undrinkable beans. Gutted!


Going from "the nicest coffee you ever had" to "undrinkable" & worse than instant suggests it is something other than the beans.

What did they say regarding the beans you returned?


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Only just noticed this thread so sorry I haven't chipped in earlier. I had exactly the same expereince as you. I bought a kg of this coffee and smashed though it in no tme at all, it tasted stunning. I bought another kg and and no matter what I did it tasted pretty awful. The first bag was bought in september 2016 an the second in October

I complained to Hasbean and to their credit they sent out a fresh kilo and in exchange i set 100g back of the coffee i was unhappy with for them to test. The second kg tasted just as bad so I just gave up.

Hasbean never got back to me on why the flavour had changed. I have no idea why there was such a huge difference.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

PreCoffeeCantankerousness said:


> Well... I had another batch and still no blueberries. So perhaps this is it. Is there a way to tell if a green coffee bean is fresh? Do they advertise 'Picked dates' or something? Is there any guidelines or rule of thumb for how soon to have them?
> 
> This is my first time with african beans and I've gone from the nicest coffee I have ever had to drinking instant in front of a stack of undrinkable beans. Gutted!


 Have you tried brewing the beans with a different method such as filter or cupping them? If so what were they like? If the fruit flavours were present there then it suggests the issue may not be the beans themselves.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I think the general consensus is that greens are good for 1 year after processing. Not sure whether the type of processing effects this or not. Maybe naturals are less due to some fermentation?

Ethiopian coffee harvest season is Nov to Feb. So those greens will certainly be a their limit or past it if they were harvested Feb 2016.

I had a bag back in August 2016 which I enjoyed as brewed. Certainly sweet and fruity then.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Going from "the nicest coffee you ever had" to "undrinkable" & worse than instant suggests it is something other than the beans.
> 
> What did they say regarding the beans you returned?


Homogenisation initially, but now age.

Edit:

There was no comment on tasting of the beans I returned.

In hindsight I'd better clarify 'undrinkable' as an emotional response rather than a physical one. Its certainly not vomit inducing, but merely devoid of the characteristics I loved and purchased it for. The only thing I'd find in making a cup of it is frustration - hence the instant.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

unoll said:


> Only just noticed this thread so sorry I haven't chipped in earlier. I had exactly the same expereince as you. I bought a kg of this coffee and smashed though it in no tme at all, it tasted stunning. I bought another kg and and no matter what I did it tasted pretty awful. The first bag was bought in september 2016 an the second in October
> 
> I complained to Hasbean and to their credit they sent out a fresh kilo and in exchange i set 100g back of the coffee i was unhappy with for them to test. The second kg tasted just as bad so I just gave up.
> 
> Hasbean never got back to me on why the flavour had changed. I have no idea why there was such a huge difference.


I understand. After they were so nice and prompt about the initial replacement I've not had the heart - until yesterday - to contact them again to ask them how we proceed now...

To their credit they have been great - as always - and are offering me some different beans or waiting until the fresh batch of ana sora arrives.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Elcee said:


> Have you tried brewing the beans with a different method such as filter or cupping them? If so what were they like? If the fruit flavours were present there then it suggests the issue may not be the beans themselves.


Hi, I don't like my coffee any way other than straight black espresso, cortado, or cappuccino, so I couldn't compare.

However, the blueberries from the initial batch which I loved were supremely evident and easy to obtain for both myself and my brother via my equipment and his porlex and bialetti. Neither or our set ups could produce blueberries in subsequent batches.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

Step21 said:


> I think the general consensus is that greens are good for 1 year after processing. Not sure whether the type of processing effects this or not. Maybe naturals are less due to some fermentation?
> 
> Ethiopian coffee harvest season is Nov to Feb. So those greens will certainly be a their limit or past it if they were harvested Feb 2016.
> 
> I had a bag back in August 2016 which I enjoyed as brewed. Certainly sweet and fruity then.


Thanks, thats interesting. HasBean have just advised they are expecting a new batch in soon, so I'm not sure quite how this fits in with the timeline....


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

PreCoffeeCantankerousness said:


> Thanks, thats interesting. HasBean have just advised they are expecting a new batch in soon, so I'm not sure quite how this fits in with the timeline....


It means they will very soon have greens from the latest harvest. So the beans should be at their best if you wait for them. No guarantees that this years and last years will be the same though. Coffee is a natural product and climatic conditions can effect the crop for good or bad, just like wine.


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## PreCoffeeCantankerousness (Dec 14, 2014)

To give you an update, there have been a few more emails with Chris at Has Bean.

My brother and I are being given some coffee to tide us over for now and a replacement batch of Ana Sora when it arrives. Chris will be testing each coffee that is sent out to me which will be reassuring.

Has Beans customer service has always been reassuringly first rate.

Life's too short for bad coffee!


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