# So, what am I missing please...?



## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Hello all,

Well, two and a half years down the line with Doserless Rocky & Silvia V3. Have learned loads, home training initially from Glenn, and latterly a day at Barista Bootcamp with Barista BarBar in Whitechapel, bottomless PF, VST baskets, weighing doses, WDT, tamper click-mat, weighing shots, temperature surfing, stepless Rocky mod, getting consistently tasty shots with quality, local fresh roasts, experimenting with various blends and SOs, help and advice locally from Rob at Butterworths

Is this it? Is there more I could be enjoying? Should I stick, bust [!] or raise????

Could those hardy souls who have trod this way before please advise? ........As there is kit out there which spanks my setup into Toyland, presumably there is more to be got out of great beans in terms of consistency, depth of flavour and full extraction?

We only drink espresso or long black at home, 6-8 doubles is the daily average, but when milkies visit then poor old Silvia struggles and can't really cope with half a dozen cappuccinos on the trot.

Having spent ages scouring the forum and online resources it's easy to end up more confused.









I appreciate that this will be each-to-his-own, but a few 'objective' starters might help me in my research:

Do both grinder and machine need to be upgraded to get into the next league?

Do lever machines really deliver over all others [Londinium and Bezzerra]?

What grinder is really going to give a HUGE step-up from a modded stepless Rocky in the home environment?

Luckily finances need not restrict the budget too badly, but kitchen space does. Approaching the big 60 next year, so keen to make any upgrade 'the one'.....or accept my set-up with its limitations.

Over to you, and thanks in advance for any suggestions.....Or do I need just to get out more???????

Ian


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

General consensus seems to be rotary pump is a step up from a vibe pump and lever is a step up from rotary


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## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

I'd take a trip to a shop and try one of the more expensive machines. We can all say yes (or no I guess!) but nothing answers these questions like first hand like experiencing it yourself. I'm sire claudette at belle barista would be happy to give you a demo if you can make it down there?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

There are two ways to go - a dual boiler machine with a PID control, which would give the ability to tweak temperature to your heart's content or a lever machine like the Londinium I, which I think does take you into another league (but I'm biased, because I'm an LI owner).

Either way I think you there will be a huge step up in taste, consistency, steam power and ease of use.

You don't have to upgrade your grinder at the same time, but you will probably want to, sooner or later, as your new machine wil reveal the differences in grind. I'll let others wade into the grinder argument but there seems to be three approaches:

1) Get a top of range domestic grinder like a Mazzer Mini E (others will favour the Vario or even the Mignon)

2) Buy a good s/h commerical grinder like a Mazzer SJ

3) Buy an HG-One, which has the burrs of a Mazzer Robur without grind retention and needs no electricity.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I think you can improve on your coffee, and RoloD makes some good suggestions.

Of course we'd all love to go play with the shiny expensive machines, but showrooms are few and far between so maybe some reading on higher end machines here and on Home Barista?

Another Londinium owner here, but its re-ignited my love for espresso and produces something a lot better than ny old pump machine did and in my opinion quite different from many high end cafe's with La Marzocco's or equivalent.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Of course there's more, there's always more to learn and experience, that's the whole point of making coffee yourself.

Any point anyone thinks they know all there is to know about coffee, just shows their ignorance.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

CamV6 said:


> General consensus seems to be rotary pump is a step up from a vibe pump and lever is a step up from rotary


Blind taste tests have shown that there is absolutely no appreciable taste differential between rotary or vibe pumps.

Lever is a different matter


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

IanP said:


> Is this it? Is there more I could be enjoying? Should I stick, bust [!] or raise????
> 
> What grinder is really going to give a HUGE step-up from a modded stepless Rocky in the home environment?
> 
> Ian


I upgraded to a Silvia V3 from a Classic. Did all the things with the Silvia you are doing - temp surfing, WDT etc. and was really pleased with the jump in shot quality having paired the Silvia with a Vario. Then I got to thinking just how far can things be improved. I think machines with PID and dual boilers deliver the goods at a cost, IMO, of being intrinsically more complicated which put me off. I wanted the consistency of control such machines provide without the electronic complexity which took me into the lever domain. Reading up, asking those more knowledgable than me and getting information from this forum, led me towards the Londinium. It's an elegantly simple design - can be left on for hours and stays at the correct temperature. No need for purging shots. Moreover, it's made in the UK so parts and spares are easily available. There are other levers out there costing less but none fits my shopping list like the LI. I would advise you to go and try out various machines if you are serious about celebrating your coming 60th. Only that way will you to be able to decide what's best for you. A final note on lever machines - there's something innately satisfying feeling the resistance of the lever as you pull it down - the experience is more involving IMO.

Whichever route you go down, you will need a grinder that can do justice. Having used the Vario with the LI, I can say the results are rewarding. But then I saw what a grinder with monster burrs can do - no contest. If you want the ultimate in extraction capability - you will need a grinder that can match the machine and the bigger the burr set it has the better. Problem with grinders with big burr sets is they are designed for the commercial setting not so much for the home. The HG One is an elegant solution to how to incorporate big burr sets into a domestic grinder - but it is manual. If space is a premium, the HG can be moved around fairly easily which is what I do - something you'd struggle doing with a commercial big burr grinder.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

It's amazing how fashions change and how, over the years that I have been on this Forum, the 'ideal' espresso machine has been vastly upgraded - and the same with grinders. When I first joined the Silvia was *the* aspirational machine for many, but that then upgraded to E-61 HX, then to double boilers (plus PID) and now to the Londinium. (I'm not critical of any of those machines, and in due course will probably end up moving on my Rocket and getting a Londinium myself).

Will improving your kit improve your coffee - probably - but it won't be a sea-change in quality, given the experience, time and effort that you have put into mastering your Silvia. It's down to what you want, but it seems that the only real issue that you have with your Silvia is steaming milk in quantity, so you're going to end up spending a considerable amount of money to improve that, and it may be that the only ones to benefit will be your friends (if they actually notice!)

Unless he's recently uprated, look at Glenn working at home with a Classic and a Vario, and probably turning out better espresso than most of us.

Yes, it's lovely to own any state-of-the-art item, particularly when they are nice and shiney like espresso machines, but you have a perfectly workable set-up, so don't feel that you *must* upgrade.

Personally, and it's only from my own experience, but I wouldn't necessarily upgrade both grinder and machine at the same time as this throws in a lot of variables into a short-term change. Probably, given your current set-up, grinder first, and then, when you are settled with that, an upgraded machine.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

vintagecigarman said:


> Will improving your kit improve your coffee - probably - but it won't be a sea-change in quality, given the experience, time and effort that you have put into mastering your Silvia.


Good point. But if you want a challenge to get that extra bit of quality, a machine that offers more personal control over the process of shot extraction is the way to go.


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Well, thank you all for such prompt advice and opinions and, for taking the time to help out a fellow 'enthusiast' in times of need!

Plenty of food for thought here and will give me lots to think about while pondering the next move...... or status quo.

So far, the lever fans probably have the more compelling argument? Can't see that a double boiler is necessary for my needs. Londinium footprint may be too large for my small kitchen and shallow counters.... .... may be tempted towards a lever with a smaller footprint, and in preference over a HX? Certainly can't see me wanting to fiddle with PIDs and gizmos, not really me, so Rocket 58 etc not a contender really.

Plenty of time for consideration and more research. Had been tending towards levers based on online research.... in as much as that tells you anything.

More confused in a way about the grinder. Rocky clearly not the home barista default as it was even a couple of years ago? Grinders are the key to getting the best from the beans (just like the record deck in hi-fi days). Modded to stepless I have seen greater flexibility and fine tuning of current shots.

May well go and try out some machines in situ in BB as a starter. If I taste huge differences in espresso then I would be keen to upgrade. If not then may stay as is.

I imagine that's the real criterion?

I wikl, of course, let you all know what I decide in the end, whenever that may be, and even put up some photos if upgrading is the solution.

Enjoy your coffees, I'll enjoy mine.

Ian


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

I'm not sure the rocky was ever the home barista default?

I don't think huge differences in taste are the sole criterion.

I think you'd be wise to try some machines and come to your own conclusions.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

CamV6 said:


> General consensus seems to be rotary pump is a step up from a vibe pump and lever is a step up from rotary


General consensus is that coffee is brown.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

What about a side step into brewed coffee?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Espresso is so yesterday brewed coffee is the future!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Earlepap said:


> What about a side step into brewed coffee?


I had been wanting to try vac pots for a while, pretty darn pleased with the cona.


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Again thanks all for suggestions. I know that it's a bit like writing to a car magazine asking which car is best for me.?! Ultimately down to my tastes and preferences. Curiously I much prefer espresso to other brewed coffees. It was a love of espressos on holidays in Europe which led me into the dangerous world of coffee. I do remember Cona systems from the 70s with their school science lab apparatus look









At least I know now that coffee IS brown (!) and that I like it!

..... But your suggestions have been helpful in the decision making process and in opening my eyes further.

Cheers one and all.

Ian


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

Thanks to great packaging now have Southpaw's Vario on my kitchen bench. Having roughly dialled it in. I can say that there is a significant improvement in grind quality over my Rocky. Much more even showing of the shot through the VST basket in the bottomless pf...... I'm doing nothing different from before! Great flavours coming through too.

So that's the start of my Upgraditis..... To be followed by a visit to the famed Bella Barista after Easter to survey the shiny things..... may need sunglasses?

Londinium would have been top choice but galley style kitchen has benches only 43cm deep...... could be a challenge.

Still, here's how it look now 

Great doing business.


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## Big Tony (Dec 18, 2012)

Looks awesome mate... lucky you


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Nice set up, Ian - enjoy! Recommend you temp surf to get the best out of the Silvia.


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Nice set up, Ian - enjoy! Recommend you temp surf to get the best out of the Silvia.


Cheers, yes I always temp surf,weigh and WDT every shot. Thanks for the reminder. I'll also post photos of anything I get seduced into buying @ Bella Barista!!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

IanP said:


> Cheers, yes I always temp surf,weigh and WDT every shot. Thanks for the reminder. I'll also post photos of anything I get seduced into buying @ Bella Barista!!


Look forward to that. Bet you don't come away empty handed!


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