# Flat white ratios



## mremanxx

I only like flat whites.

I have been using the 2:1 ratio as recommended for espressos, (usually 16-18g in to 30-34g out) then adding about 120ml milk.

No real problems.

Was bored and did a search and a couple of sites suggested it should be made with a 3:1 ratio (120ml milk to 60ml of coffee)

That seems like an awful lot of coffee if you use espresso ratios.

If I am not wrong would pulling a shot that long from say 18g grinds not cause over extraction and a bitter taste?

I know it is all about taste in the cup etc but are some ratios expected to be followed to validate the type of drink like ristretto,espresso etc?

As I said I was bored so thought I would ask.

Ta


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## Mrboots2u

the only validation i need is if it tastes nice ...... but I call all my espresso derek btw

If you are in search of validation and consensus you might find that the illuminati think your are not drinking a flat white at all .. then what?


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## Mrboots2u

But if you must

Credit to @AndyS as always ...









taken from here

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/brewing-ratios-for-espresso-beverages-t2402.html


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## NickdeBug

mremanxx said:


> Was bored and did a search and a couple of sites suggested it should be made with a *3:1 ratio *(*120ml milk to 60ml of coffee*)
> 
> That seems like an awful lot of coffee if you use espresso ratios.


This looks like it is still 2:1


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## Mrboots2u

http://www.baristahustle.com/cowculator/


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## froggystyle

Make an espresso, get the taste of that right, then add milk, taste... simple.


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## mremanxx

Mrboots2u said:


> the only validation i need is if it tastes nice ...... but I call all my espresso derek btw
> 
> If you are in search of validation and consensus you might find that the illuminati think your are not drinking a flat white at all .. then what?


Trust you Boots


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## mremanxx

NickdeBug said:


> This looks like it is still 2:1


Yeh it's a 2:1 but to get 60ml coffee if it was an espresso would mean 30g in the basket no?

I must be missing something.......no funny comments


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## mremanxx

froggystyle said:


> Make an espresso, get the taste of that right, then add milk, taste... simple.


It's what I have been doing but an idle mind and all that.........


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## hotmetal

Maybe it's me but reading your original post I wasn't sure if you are talking about brew ratio or the ratio of espresso to milk, or indeed conflating the two. If someone says it needs to be 60g espresso to 120g (or ml) of milk, that doesn't mean you have to get all the espresso from one shot - it could be 60g of espresso as in (15g>30g)×2 =60 + milk.

The coffee needs to be a good tasty extraction, and then you add milk to taste rather than volume (until you find a volume of milk that works with your shot, then you can note it and repeat).


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## NickdeBug

quadruple espresso does sound like overkill for a flat white.

As suggested above, drink what tastes good - but not derek


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## mremanxx

From here

http://yorkcoffeeemporium.co.uk/blog/flat-white-example-page/

Only says single or double espresso

Might be, where are all the bloody Baristas when you need them???









Must all be in Starbucks and Costa still.


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## hotmetal

Also it depends on how we decide a flat white is a flat white. Acme flat white cups are 160ml, and their cappuccino cups are 200ml. But I personally would use one double in both of those cup sizes. The texture of the milk rather than the size of cup would be a bigger point of difference. (Notwithstanding the discussion the other day between Tamper and scottgough saying all milk is now the same texture).


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## mremanxx

Where is Gary????


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## hotmetal

Probably in a café enjoying a bumpy white or a 9oz flattuccino. He doesn't know anyone called Derek as far as I know.


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## Mrboots2u

mremanxx said:


> Where is Gary????


 @garydyke1 - he serves cappa's . You don't like them


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## mremanxx

Mrboots2u said:


> @garydyke1 - he serves cappa's . You don't like them


Git


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## garydyke1

It's all coffee n milk innit


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## mremanxx

garydyke1 said:


> It's all coffee n milk innit


Nice to know you can always rely on the very experienced members to answer your questions fully giving all their knowledge unconditionally.


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## garydyke1

Sorry.

We pull 32-36g yield (depending on coffee) into 6oz cups and top with steamed milk with 4-5mm microfoam.


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## mremanxx

garydyke1 said:


> Sorry.
> 
> We pull 32-36g yield (depending on coffee) into 6oz cups and top with steamed milk with 4-5mm microfoam.


Thanks Gary, that is about the volumes I use, was just perplexed by the volumes quoted in the article I read, they seemed very over extracted coffee

volumes to me.

What bean do you find customers prefer in flat whites?


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## garydyke1

mremanxx said:


> Thanks Gary, that is about the volumes I use, was just perplexed by the volumes quoted in the article I read, they seemed very over extracted coffee
> 
> volumes to me.
> 
> What bean do you find customers prefer in flat whites?


Generally coffee beans ?

It depends on the customer


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## mremanxx

garydyke1 said:


> Generally coffee beans 
> 
> It depends on the customer


Slow day and wanting to take the piss out of the Scotsman????









I just wondered if you prefer using one type of bean as some cut through milk better than others.

P.S. Hope your next visit to the toilet is a sore one.


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## garydyke1

mremanxx said:


> Slow day and wanting to take the piss out of the Scotsman????
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> I just wondered if you prefer using one type of bean as some cut through milk better than others.
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> P.S. Hope your next visit to the toilet is a sore one.


Not really, we take seasonal coffees and try and have comfort and adventure options


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## mremanxx

Cheers Gary, name of a bean???


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## froggystyle

Jeff?


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## mremanxx

Knew it as soon as i hit the return button


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## AL1968

Humanbean!!


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## jeebsy

mremanxx said:


> I just wondered if you prefer using one type of bean as some cut through milk better than others.
> 
> P.S. Hope your next visit to the toilet is a sore one.


http://www.jimseven.com/2010/03/07/cappuccino-as-conflict/


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## mremanxx

jeebsy said:


> http://www.jimseven.com/2010/03/07/cappuccino-as-conflict/


Takes someone from Scotland to be sensible









Am I surprised??? No


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## mremanxx

Interesting about the Robusta, some Robusta beans I have tried are nice and if I am correct Robusta beans are not meant to be as good quality or is that too much of a generalisation?


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## Mrboots2u

mremanxx said:


> Interesting about the Robusta, some Robusta beans I have tried are nice and if I am correct Robusta beans are not meant to be as good quality or is that too much of a generalisation?


Cup or brew or taste robusta on its own ... then ask yourself the question what value is it adding ( taste wise ) ....

It will bulk a blend out ... it will add crema ... it will give burny , bittery , rubbery taste ( some people like this )

Then again if your only drinking them with milk ....


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## mremanxx

That is what I am lead to believe too, as I said it was an interesting point in the article, especially as Robusta is favoured by Italians who on the whole drink espresso and not milk drinks. It is those harsh qualities you mentioned that I think help these beans when drunk with milk and not alone.


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## garydyke1

Robusta helps nothing except pest/decease resistance and yield when cross bred with Arabica. Google Catimor


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## Mrboots2u

mremanxx said:


> That is what I am lead to believe too, as I said it was an interesting point in the article, especially as Robusta is favoured by Italians who on the whole drink espresso and not milk drinks. It is those harsh qualities you mentioned that I think help these beans when drunk with milk and not alone.


Italians tend to dump some sugar in their espresso to compensate


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## mremanxx

garydyke1 said:


> Robusta helps nothing except pest/decease resistance and yield when cross bred with Arabica. Google Catimor


Touchy Gary, watch the blood pressure bud.


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## garydyke1

mremanxx said:


> Touchy Gary, watch the blood pressure bud.


Nothing touchy involved .

FYI - My BP is 72/125. Resting pulse 58.


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## Epic_Espresso

Try going 1:1 for a ristetto as the base. 18g grounds, 18g volume ristetto and only as a smaller 6oz cup. Be careful with the milk as the smaller volume of milk only takes a little steaming and can turn into lather easily!


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## mremanxx

garydyke1 said:


> Nothing touchy involved .
> 
> FYI - My BP is 72/125. Resting pulse 58.


Think my pulse is higher that that even when I'm sleeping


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## garydyke1

mremanxx said:


> Think my pulse is higher that that even when I'm sleeping


More cardio required ?


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## mremanxx

Does that mean drink more coffee?

I'll tell my wife.


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## h1udd

garydyke1 said:


> More cardio required ?


That doesn't work, I just did a 1 min sprint on the rower and my heart beat went up to 160.

try watching "mumma Mia" after about 30mins your heart grinds to a halt and your kidneys pack up


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## mremanxx

Epic_Espresso said:


> Try going 1:1 for a ristetto as the base. 18g grounds, 18g volume ristetto and only as a smaller 6oz cup. Be careful with the milk as the smaller volume of milk only takes a little steaming and can turn into lather easily!


Not bad Epic,

Just drinking one using the above method and Rocko Mountain beans, was a bit worried it might under extract but poured in about 35s and added 120ml milk


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## Mrboots2u

Depends what you mean by under extracted - if your looking at nominal extraction yields being 18-20 % then one to one ratio. will be under extracted doesn't mean it isn't tasty . You may be hitting some pre pre hump nom . What does it taste like without milk though


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## mremanxx

Crap...........but that's my tastebuds, don't know why but I really don't like espresso, do get the sour/bitter thing from some beans and I always try drinking a new bean neat when I have the ratios in the right region but it doesn't do anything for me.

I sometime feel I'm missing out when I read others raving about the taste of this bean and that and the notes it has and mouthfeel









Tried going long but still not very nice to me.

And befoer anyone asks.......no I don't like tea.

Like flat whites though


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## mremanxx

Meant to ask Boots... what is the pre pre hump nom?


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## jlarkin

mremanxx said:


> Meant to ask Boots... what is the pre pre hump nom?


Again, James hoffman has some of the answers, although whereabouts pre pre hump is compared to little hump and bigger hump I'm not sure: http://www.jimseven.com/2010/11/08/the-double-hump/

p.s. I'm not even Scottish.


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## MWJB

jlarkin said:


> Again, James hoffman has some of the answers, although whereabouts pre pre hump is compared to little hump and bigger hump I'm not sure: http://www.jimseven.com/2010/11/08/the-double-hump/
> 
> p.s. I'm not even Scottish.


You can get tasty extractions between 12-14%EY (before Rao's "little hump" ~15-16%), ~19-20%EY is the "big hump". ~13% extractions can be quite nice, but lack focus & mute acidity.

Trouble is, between the humps you get areas of poor flavour, so it's not a simple gradient & why consistency is good in case you drop off the hump at either side.


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## mremanxx

Sorry guys, if my web cam was on you would see a really confused looking Scotsman, can I get it in really simple terms?


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## Mrboots2u

Not tasty > not tasty > pre pre hump nom > not tasty > pre hump nom > not tasty > hump nom > less tasty fandabidosi > not tasty again


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## jlarkin

Lol


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## mremanxx

Mrboots2u said:


> Not tasty > not tasty > pre pre hump nom > not tasty > pre hump nom > not tasty > hump nom > less tasty fandabidosi > not tasty again


Hate you









Still bloody confused......forget trying I'm obviously too thick









I only want a nice coffee.


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## Mrboots2u

mremanxx said:


> Hate you
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> Still bloody confused......forget trying I'm obviously too thick
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> I only want a nice coffee.


Nespresso


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## mremanxx

Pmsl


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## jeebsy

Do you actually feel you're struggling?


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## mremanxx

jeebsy said:


> Do you actually feel you're struggling?


Not really Jeebsy, as I said at the top of the post I was bored and came across the article, I just wanted to find out what other thought on the subject. I do wonder if I was making my flat whites wrong after reading the article though.

It probably stems from being new to the fresh coffee game and not wanting to lose anything from the beans when used for the drink I prefer.

I know it would be much easier to appreciate the taste that different beans and roast offer if I drunk espresso but unfortunately they are not for me.

How do you make flat whites on the stall?


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## Mrboots2u

mremanxx said:


> Not really Jeebsy, as I said at the top of the post I was bored and came across the article, I just wanted to find out what other thought on the subject. I do wonder if I was making my flat whites wrong after reading the article though.
> 
> It probably stems from being new to the fresh coffee game and not wanting to lose anything from the beans when used for the drink I prefer.
> 
> I know it would be much easier to appreciate the taste that different beans and roast offer if I drunk espresso but unfortunately they are not for me.
> 
> How do you make flat whites on the stall?


Perhaps experimenting with brew ratios and training might help you appreciate espresso .

Have you tried americano at all ?

What you are making ( flat white ) is only wrong - if it tastes bad ...not if someone somewhere tells you it isn't a flat white

Personally i brew to make a tasty espresso then add milk to it - other people will brew to preference for milk , its your gob at the end of the day , make what your gob tells you it likes ... it would be a shame if you didn't try and experiment to see if other drinks were tasty too ...


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## mremanxx

So do you drink cortados then?

I presume that you appreciate and enjoy the flavour of espressos though?

Unfortunately that is my probelm, I don't.

Can't even enjoy Americanos. Cannot explain why.


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## Mrboots2u

mremanxx said:


> So do you drink cortados then?
> 
> I presume that you appreciate and enjoy the flavour of espressos though?
> 
> Unfortunately that is my probelm, I don't.
> 
> Can't even enjoy Americanos. Cannot explain why.


I drink espresso - and milk drinks mostly 4-5 oz in size - i don't really care what they are called .

Perhaps you dont like black coffee

Perhaps the coffee you use isn't sweet enough , or brewed sweet enough

You don't have to like anything . Then again I would struggle to drink a 1:1 espresso of any bean. to strong and under extracted for my brain....


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## jeebsy

18 in 40 out served in a 6oz cup


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## mremanxx

jeebsy said:


> 18 in 40 out served in a 6oz cup


That is basically what I do.

I sometimes stop it short ie 18 in32-35 out just to make it slightly stronger.

Do you use a particular bean for milk drinks or just use what's in the grinder?


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## mremanxx

Mrboots2u said:


> I drink espresso - and milk drinks mostly 4-5 oz in size - i don't really care what they are called .
> 
> Perhaps you dont like black coffee
> 
> Perhaps the coffee you use isn't sweet enough , or brewed sweet enough
> 
> You don't have to like anything . Then again I would struggle to drink a 1:1 espresso of any bean. to strong and under extracted for my brain....


Totally get your point Boots, can you recommend a sweet bean?

I have tried lots of different ones and apart from A Yirga bean and the Spazbarista Special (Hill and Valley no less) from Coffee Compass, I don't get too much of a difference in flavour.

Don't get me wrong if it's nice it's just nice and I want more, trouble is I don't know why









I should maybe try and attend a tasting thingy somewhere to learn more.


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## hotmetal

Unless you've found a particular bean that floats your boat, you might do well trying a blend that's stated to be good with milk as a starting point. Some single origin coffees get a bit lost even in a wee 6oz flattie. You could try Rave Signature, Bella Barista Milk Buster, or any number of med-med/dark blends from other roasters. They can lack the subtlety and clarity if drunk as neat espresso or long black, but if you always drink with milk (as I do quite often), these blends have the body and substance to 'punch through' the milk. I'm sure there will be plenty of other recommendations other than the 2 I mentioned. Union Spirit worth a go too.


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## jeebsy

mremanxx said:


> That is basically what I do.
> 
> I sometimes stop it short ie 18 in32-35 out just to make it slightly stronger.
> 
> Do you use a particular bean for milk drinks or just use what's in the grinder?


I've got some stale Italian Job I use for milky drinks



hotmetal said:


> 'punch through' the milk.


Part of me dies every time I read this. The espresso should complement the milk, not punch it.


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## mremanxx

jeebsy said:


> I've got some stale Italian Job I use for milky drinks
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> Nice to know your looking after your customers Jeebsy
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> The reaching under the counter for the " special beans"


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## hotmetal

You know what I mean. No part of you needs to die - some beans 'complement' or work with milk better than others. They're not having a fight LOL! It's just words. I wouldn't make a latte with geisha.


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## hotmetal

jeebsy said:


> I've got some stale Italian Job I use for milky drinks


Not sure I'll come to your stall for a milk drink then... you could be the Gerald Ratner of the coffee world ?


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## jeebsy

mremanxx said:


> Nice to know your looking after your customers Jeebsy
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http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?2271-What-s-in-your-cup-this-morning&p=394833#post394833


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## mremanxx

jeebsy said:


> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?2271-What-s-in-your-cup-this-morning&p=394833#post394833


I actually remember that, that was your first gig was it not? I was going to try and come through and if I recall you told me not to ask for a flat white









I'm using the Rocko Mountain just now and am not too impressed, they are okay, I actually think Brighton Lanes is nicer.


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## jeebsy

No that was this morning.

Rocko Mountain works amazing as spro and is particularly good in milk. It's nice if people try espresso but if someone wants a flat white, they can have a flat white.


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## Mrboots2u

mremanxx said:


> I actually remember that, that was your first gig was it not? I was going to try and come through and if I recall you told me not to ask for a flat white
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Not surprised if your pulling 1:1 shots of it


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## mremanxx

PMSL

Knew something was said about flat whites by you once.

Latte art is improving I see.



jeebsy said:


> Please don't travel 40 miles just for a flat white....it'll end in disappointment.


I'm old and get easily confused









Was it busy? weather is crap just now in West Lothian.


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## Mrboots2u




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## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


>


I can just see it now

"Flat white please"

*makes flat white*

"That's not like a Greggs flat white, ooh I don't like that"


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