# With hindsight...



## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

I have recently acquired a sage dual boiler and am quite amazed by the latte I make every morning. Nonetheless, it takes me a while to make: pre-heating for 20mins, latte, clean-up

And it is costing a fair bit to run: waitrose water only, pro maintenance schedule, etc... (out of warranty). A pricey endeavor for a manual setup (mostly).

With hindsight: I would buy a Niche, a Flair Espresso Pro (with pressure gauge) and this thing: https://www.dualit.com/products/cino

I know there are hardcore sage fans here... but this is my preliminary feeling after using the SDB for a couple of weeks now.


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

It equally amazes me that innovation in the coffee space is coming far away from appliance makers: Niche, Flair and Peak Water are all crowd funded fresh ideas...


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Should've got a bambino plus  does it all for you in super quick time

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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

joey24dirt said:


> Should've got a bambino plus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 It is not process/workflow I am running away from. If I was, I would just go to the Nespresso Vortex thingy.

I just can't see why anyone would pay £900-£1200 for an SDB when the Dualit Cino sells for £180 and the Flair Pro for £150...


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> Should've got a bambino plus  does it all for you in super quick time
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


How are you getting on with yours? How does it compare to the sage duo?

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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

With that logic why not buy a la pavoni that doesn't require the faff of preheating everything like the flair and has the ability to steam milk too?

Also the sdb and flair are completely different ways of making espresso. So it's not fair to compare them.

On a side note if the 20 mins warm up bothers you, why not get a smart plug?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

KTD said:


> How are you getting on with yours? How does it compare to the sage duo?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's just the same really other than it has basic volumetrics and then the auto steamer. Because I'm trying to use it in a tiny cupboard, those features make it ideal. I don't have to do anything other than wait.

The 3-way valve is a great addition too.

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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Fez said:


> With that logic why not buy a la pavoni that doesn't require the faff of preheating everything like the flair and has the ability to steam milk too?
> 
> Also the sdb and flair are completely different ways of making espresso. So it's not fair to compare them.
> 
> On a side note if the 20 mins warm up bothers you, why not get a smart plug?


 SDB has a soft-switch I think so auto-sleeps after 10-15 mins of inactivity. WiFi plugs make this quite difficult to keep on to pre-heat. I did think that the SDB heated up a bit quicker than 20 mins though... It's not a e61 group and the boiler should heat up within about 5 mins max.


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Fez said:


> With that logic why not buy a la pavoni that doesn't require the faff of preheating everything like the flair and has the ability to steam milk too?
> 
> Also the sdb and flair are completely different ways of making espresso. So it's not fair to compare them.
> 
> On a side note if the 20 mins warm up bothers you, why not get a smart plug?


 How different is the La Pavoni espresso to the SDB?


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> How different is the La Pavoni espresso to the SDB?


 You'd have to ask someone that owns both for a comparison.

But for me personally I wouldn't even consider a flat + dualit when you can get an excellent condition la pavoni for similar money


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Fez said:


> You'd have to ask someone that owns both for a comparison.
> 
> But for me personally I wouldn't even consider a flat + dualit when you can get an excellent condition la pavoni for similar money


 similar money? I am not sure...

For my untrained palate, I can see a difference between a an elctro-mechanical pump generating 9 bars of pressure and a manual one like the Flair.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> similar money? I am not sure...
> 
> For my untrained palate, I can see a difference between a an elctro-mechanical pump generating 9 bars of pressure and a manual one like the Flair.


 Flair requires a lot more faff and more pre-heating of baskets and other components. Kettle needs to be temperature controlled - a Stagg Fellow EKG may set you back a pretty penny. When comparing the price of the Stagg & Flair to a La Pavoni, I know which I'd choose.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Cooffe said:


> SDB has a soft-switch I think so auto-sleeps after 10-15 mins of inactivity. WiFi plugs make this quite difficult to keep on to pre-heat. I did think that the SDB heated up a bit quicker than 20 mins though... It's not a e61 group and the boiler should heat up within about 5 mins max.


 Fair enough. Yes I also thought 20 mins was high - maybe someone with a db can confirm


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> similar money? I am not sure...
> 
> For my untrained palate, I can see a difference between a an elctro-mechanical pump generating 9 bars of pressure and a manual one like the Flair.


 A la pavoni is a manual machine. Theres no pump


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Fez said:


> A la pavoni is a manual machine. Theres no pump


 I'm just going to mention temperature stability and leave it at that. Pavnois are mega simple to work on if something goes wrong as well - maybe worth upgrading to a brass piston if a newer one is bought.


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Fez said:


> Fair enough. Yes I also thought 20 mins was high - maybe someone with a db can confirm


 Seattle Coffee Gear (youtube channel) has done multiple SDB tests and figured out that it needs 20 minutes to heat everything (group head, PF...)


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Cooffe said:


> I'm just going to mention temperature stability and leave it at that. Pavnois are mega simple to work on if something goes wrong as well - maybe worth upgrading to a brass piston if a newer one is bought.


 How does the Pavnois espresso compare to a sage one (like-for-like)?


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> How does the Pavnois espresso compare to a sage one (like-for-like)?


 Can't comment. Never used a Pavoni, have seen them used though, and a buddy has one that I've watched him use a few times. AFAIK they take a bit of getting used to, but the espresso is generally better. @joey24dirt is probably your man to ask for a direct comparison between sage and Pavoni - he's a diehard convert now...

I'd err away from the Flair though if you want repeatable results.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

To me the flair is something that should only be considered if you need a portable espresso maker which can be packed into a case and taken anywhere. For something that's going to be used at home it's going to be huge compromise in terms of workflow and consistency


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Fez said:


> To me the flair is something that should only be considered if you need a portable espresso maker which can be packed into a case and taken anywhere. For something that's going to be used at home it's going to be huge compromise in terms of workflow and consistency


 Even then, I've seen a Pavoni travel case made with foam and people take it to hotels when out and about. I'd sooner do that than use a Flair. It does have its place though (that may/may not be in the bin).


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Cooffe said:


> Can't comment. Never used a Pavoni, have seen them used though, and a buddy has one that I've watched him use a few times. AFAIK they take a bit of getting used to, but the espresso is generally better. @joey24dirt is probably your man to ask for a direct comparison between sage and Pavoni - he's a diehard convert now...
> 
> I'd err away from the Flair though if you want repeatable results.


 Got you.


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Cooffe said:


> Even then, I've seen a Pavoni travel case made with foam and people take it to hotels when out and about. I'd sooner do that than use a Flair. It does have its place though (that may/may not be in the bin).


 Not cheap at all though:

https://www.lapavoni.com/en/domestic-line/lever-machines/


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Not cheap at all though:
> 
> https://www.lapavoni.com/en/domestic-line/lever-machines/


 New isn't necessary. In fact the older models (1974-1979 I think) are much better.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Took my niche and pavoni away to centreparcs last week...

In all seriousness if you drink under 4 cups a day and want to single dose I can't think of a better setup for the money. Once you get used to your routine it's predictable, clearly having more control brings about an element of unpredictability but it also allows for experimentation.

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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Not cheap at all though:
> 
> https://www.lapavoni.com/en/domestic-line/lever-machines/


 I'm sure I've seen near mint examples go on here in the 300s.

With a la pavoni there is no need to buy new


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> It is not process/workflow I am running away from. If I was, I would just go to the Nespresso Vortex thingy.
> 
> I just can't see why anyone would pay £900-£1200 for an SDB when the Dualit Cino sells for £180 and the Flair Pro for £150...


 Have you used a Dualit Cino, or are you just going off the looks/reviews?


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

KTD said:


> Took my niche and pavoni away to centreparcs last week...


 I think that's the most middle class sentence I've ever read


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Not cheap at all though:
> 
> https://www.lapavoni.com/en/domestic-line/lever-machines/


I think I paid 330 for mine brand new boxed off eBay, and recently there has been/is a few new boxed pro's , stradivari's and a wooden europiccola

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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

I have to chime in as a long time user of the original Flair. It is dead simple to get a truly excellent espresso. It is compact for travel, and equally great at home. The preheating is dead simple (I prefer using a moka pot base to both steam heat the brewchamber & boil my brew water.) The clean up is dead simple. In less than 5 minutes I have a delicious espresso.

Certainly, at the beginning, it seems like there are many things/parts to deal with; but once you develop a routine, it becomes second nature (muscle memory) and I would bet I can deliver an espresso & cleanup in the same time it takes to make espresso on a semi-automatic machine.

I don't use an expensive Stagg (just an instant read thermometer, but temperature strips work well, too).

I am amazed at how much better the espresso is from the Flair than espresso I taste from numerous other very expensive espresso machines. I can't praise it enough. The beauty of this device is that you can control absolutely every aspect of your shot (temperature, pressure, flow, volume, weight, etc)

ps

I get very consistent & repeatable results!


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I'd recommend the Cafelat Robot.


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

Step21 said:


> I'd recommend the Cafelat Robot.


 another equally great manual! I'd happily recommend both!


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

-Mac said:


> Have you used a Dualit Cino, or are you just going off the looks/reviews?


 Reviews


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Reviews


 I didn't get into detail but I know somebody near me that bought one and wasn't very happy with it, but it was just in passing they mentioned it.

It might be for your second drink of the day, that you're waiting, but as you mentioned waiting 20 minutes did you know the Sage does have a built in timer? You can use it to turn it on once a day...


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

In the long run, an espresso or a flat white bought locally is much cheaper and easier to clean up than having a set up at home...

Then just have a simple grinder and AeroPress at home. Just saying


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Reviews


 Sounds like you have 'buyer's remorse'. The grass is always greener. I'm sure you'll settle in with what you have.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Seattle Coffee Gear (youtube channel) has done multiple SDB tests and figured out that it needs 20 minutes to heat everything (group head, PF...)


 get machine to 93x with pf locked in.

run some water through group with pf in , say 10 seconds

pull shot, how does it taste?

this won't take 20 minutes

enjoy


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

I agree. Buyers remorse is a common thing. I feel that unless you've used a flair and cino and prefer it to your current setup it would be massively unfair comparing them just based on reviews.

When it comes to coffee equipment especially, you can go off mainstream reviews. Here's an example, I Google best espresso machine and this was in one of the first links


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Fez said:


> I agree. Buyers remorse is a common thing. I feel that unless you've used a flair and cino and prefer it to your current setup it would be massively unfair comparing them just based on reviews.
> When it comes to coffee equipment especially, you can go off mainstream reviews. Here's an example, I Google best espresso machine and this was in one of the first links
> <img alt="Screenshot_20191022_142707_com.android.chrome.thumb.jpg.979d5c62aa32cd896f8db89d58f047d1.jpg" data-fileid="33074" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_10/Screenshot_20191022_142707_com.android.chrome.thumb.jpg.979d5c62aa32cd896f8db89d58f047d1.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Shut up & take my money!


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

One needs to enjoy the frustration of making espresso at home. There's no point in spending £££ on equipment otherwise.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Shut up & take my money!


 The best part is the espresso in Rome is pretty shocking ?


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## Junglebert (Jan 7, 2019)

PPapa said:


> One needs to enjoy the frustration of making espresso at home. There's no point in spending £££ on equipment otherwise.


 Making decent drinks at home needn't be easy or cheap, that's not the point is it.


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Sorry but I think that my point is being lost somehow...

I am questioning the value of £1000+ spent on SDB. It may have been good value when it came out 8 or 9 years ago, but it is difficult to justify this ask and the hefty out of warrant maintenance schedule (no parts available for us to buy) today in light of other options there are in the market. That's it.

I fully expect that the thermojet currently available on the Barista Pro to make its way to the reasonably priced Dual Jet Pro when it is being replaced. That will make the case for the SDB at 4 to 5 times the cost even less convincing. No white glove service however glossy it is will make up for this!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Sorry but I think that my point is being lost somehow...
> I am questioning the value of £1000+ spent on SDB. It may have been good value when it came out 8 or 9 years ago, but it is difficult to justify this ask and the hefty out of warrant maintenance schedule (no parts available for us to buy) today in light of other options there are in the market. That's it.
> I fully expect that the thermojet currently available on the Barista Pro to make its way to the reasonably priced Dual Jet Pro when it is being replaced. That will make the case for the SDB at 4 to 5 times the cost even less convincing. No white glove service however glossy it is will make up for this!


Sage have their problems with repairability due mainly how they restrict parts to their chosen service engineers to supply & fit. It ultimately means repair won't be financially viable alot sooner.
Comparing a SDB to a machine that doesn't even exist (& probably never will) isn't going to get you anywhere.


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Mrboots2u said:


> get machine to 93x with pf locked in.
> 
> run some water through group with pf in , say 10 seconds
> 
> ...


 So - you are saying that this routine I follow is somehow over complicated?

Switch machine on

Weigh 18gms and grind

Flush water tank and fill with fresh water

Flush group head and PF

Dry PF basket with towel

Put funnel on PF to contain mess

Fill cup with boiling water to preheat

Fill PF with coffee, adjust with palm of hand and tamp

Empty cup (previously filled with boiling water)

Put scales on machine with cup

Run in manual to target desired dosing (1:2.5), in the hope of getting it done in around 30secs. Otherwise repeat with different grinder setting.

Drink

Remove PF, flush group head, remove basket and wash with PF and dry. Remove tray and grill and wash.

Hoover the mess (but this is improving now)

I won't do the milk side of things...

It is more than 4 steps. Adding a "pull a lever" to the mix is irrelevant considering the time the above takes. Which is why I am thinking that those handle machines are appealing.


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

ashcroc said:


> Sage have their problems with repairability due mainly how they restrict parts to their chosen service engineers to supply & fit. It ultimately means repair won't be financially viable alot sooner.
> Comparing a SDB to a machine that doesn't even exist (& probably never will) isn't going to get you anywhere.


 Why is it that when we have passion for a hobby of some sort (that's what this is) to take a step back and assess value rationally and objectively? We do this for all other matters in life we are less passionate about.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Put funnel and PF to contain mess
> 
> Fill PF with coffee, adjust with palm of hand and tamp
> 
> Run manual to target desired dosing (1:2.5), in the hope I get it done in around 30secs. Otherwise repeat with different grinder setting.


 Don't grind into the PF.

Don't adjust the amount of coffee in the PF after dosing to, say 18.0g.

Run manual to target weight and hope the grind setting is the one that gives the best taste, rather than have an expectation of so many seconds.

From cold start, assuming your machine can warm up in time, the whole process to an espresso in the cup should only take 3-4min at the most.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> So - you are saying that this routine I follow is somehow over complicated?
> 
> Switch machine on
> 
> ...


 Nobody said espresso was easy 

My machine is always on.

I don't pre heat a cup but its your choice.

I'll time my process for a laugh later.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There is no need to wait for 20min before using a SDB.  Longest I have heard of as well.

Steam is available as soon as the display shows 93C. It tends to take a somewhat longer to cease making bubbling noises when that boiler needs descaling. No harm trying steam at any point as if it's not ready it will beep and not let you have it.

Preheating the portafilter has proved a touch odd for me. Have you checked to see if you need to preheat it? I have and unlike the Barista Express I used it doesn't make any significant difference. It is a good idea to give the machine a quick few seconds flush through the grouphead before pulling a shot. I just do that and get on with it. The difference might be down to the HX aspect of the brew water feed. Some of the initial water being rather hot. Sacrilege according to some so throw the machine away.

Preheating the portafilter made a very noticeable difference on the BE. Sage in some of their manuals suggest using the hot water outlet. It takes a stupid amount of water to get it where it should be and then the portafilter needs drying. Steam would probably do it quicker but would still need drying. What I did speeded it up dramatically. Fitted a pressurised single wall filter and ran a circa 15sec shot through it. Then used an amazon filter basket tool to remove it and fitted the one I intended to use. Very little water used and no need to dry anything.

If you do need to preheat it rather than saying wait for 20min leave it in and touch it from time to time. The right order of temperature is when you can only touch it very briefly and even then it will feel a bit uncomfortable. Done sensibly you wont burn yourself.  Some one on here wouldn't agree but I used a conventional but ring group machine that could fully heat up in 20min providing it was well flushed before use - big chunk of brass forming part of the shower screen was heated by that. The grouphead is heated on the DB which speeds that as aspect up and the big chunk of brass is replaced with a chunk of teflon.

Anyway if you want to wait 20min it prepares you for many machines where in extreme cases it might be 45min or more usually 1/2hr or so. And or waste lots of water.

LOL Buyers remorse - more often coffee not as expected = beans or not really got used to using what ever it is. Better grinder is bound to be better. More expensive machine is bound to be better.

Some people use 40sec brews - I often wonder if that is mostly done because that is how long it takes to steam their milk and that's on a pretty high end machine. I don't like the taste it gives.

For what you get the DB believe it or not is exceptional value. Thermojet and thermoblock don't provide the same water heating as the db does and also don't match it's steam power which can if needed be turned up -  I think, cant remember initial setting and what the range is. Some people only use them manually. I don't and that mostly comes down to consistent grinds preparation and tasting what the results are like if they vary. There are things about the machine that I don't like but if I remain with dual boilers I would be very likely to buy another as it is a difficult machine to replace. Part of that is down to using the buttons but there are other factors mostly what it offers in other areas.

Repair is a touchy subject. Many machines have problems at some point and repairs done by an engineer are always going to be expensive. The most likely one on a DB is O rings after it's 3 years old - easy to do. The other is the solenoid. In some respects it's a standard part available from several makers. Mine has done 1700+ shots and is still ok but did need cleaning recently. Electronics for any coffee related item tend to cost an arm and a leg - I get the impression Sage aren't too bad on that aspect. It may leave scope for labour charges as some electronics used in other machines really are well overpriced and may be difficult to get in the UK despite the obviously large margins. Not sure who gets those though.

I also wondered if you have tried to register the machine and also checked the shot count as I suggested.

As I have had to break off a few times while posting and some one mentioned using Niche. Stick to what the video I posted shows and get sufficient practice shaking in the right direction to get the grinds fairly level. It's possible to wobble the can around a bit and remove for a look and put it back on. Me well - I stick to 30secs and same bean for my wife 20sec. Others 30 sec. I always so far find the bean can have the taste it should have brewed this way and some variation in shot weight doesn't matter. The dose of grinds can make a difference as well just like ratio.

John

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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Very few more satisfying things than making coffee on equipment you love. If all I had to do was press a button I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have any interest in it.

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

KTD said:


> Very few more satisfying things than making coffee on equipment you love. If all I had to do was press a button I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have any interest in it.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 LOL My button pushing isn't simple. I weigh every shot that comes out after pulling it. Also spend a lot of time playing with prep. Rather a lot of that in respect to Niche.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

weight beans in cup

grind

flush machine 5 seconds while grinding

quick mini whisk in cup , coffee from cup into pf , tap, tamp (no need to weigh beans after grind)

lock in

cup on scales

manually mange flow with paddle

cut at desired weight.

one minute 39 total and this is not rushing

yes machine is on all time .


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Nobody said espresso was easy


 Yes it is. Filter is much harder. IMHO.?


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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

Step21 said:


> Yes it is. Filter is much harder. IMHO.?


 Tell me about it!? I can make a delicious espresso, but I have yet to master the Aeropress brew. Will have to apply myself, one of these days!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd be inclined to say the mini whisk is questionable. It can result in pretty bad clumping. Gently shaking the can from side to side can check any visible clumps. If they are weak static ones which is what I get they will at least part break up. The wont if I use a whisk of any sort. Might be down to beans, pass.

Then comes the invert and that needs to be done quickly as it will help get air out of the grinds when they fall into the basket and also compress them. It leaves sloping grinds. The slope needs to be in the right direction for it to be possible to correct it. I don't tap I follow what I have seen DaveC and Hoffmann do. Leave the cup on and shake side to side. Get it right and the grinds will be pretty level with a slight depression in the centre. Within reason using something straight edged to move grinds into a shallow area on one side is ok. Then I use a chisel / 2 slope style distribution tool to pretamp as it helps keep the main tamp level.

Net result is longer runs of shot weight variations of 1g using my fixed 30sec shots. I've tried all sorts for prep and this method is easily proving to be the best - so far. If it keeps it up for a month I'll be happy.

The pour isn't perfect but goes to one pretty quickly. I expect that to improve when I get the invert more consistent and need to do less to the grinds. I do get odd ones with just one flow and as I use preinfusion I suspect that makes this aspect a bit trickier. I have a gut feeling that I should also try increasing tamping pressure.

If some one is in the stage with Niche where static is causing a thin film of grinds to stick to the can I'd suggest ignoring it and just doing the invert. If that doesn't get them out bang the can on the tamping mat and brush them in. Might be time to clean the can as well.  A natural rubber tamping mat is best for that and for keeping clean. I have also seen some one whack the top of the can to get them out after the invert. They may have fallen in anyway. What I initially did was whack the can on the mat before the invert. Oh dear.

John

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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Improving my workflow today and finding the Lavazza Tierra enjoyable straight 1:3 but very diluted in a latte. Coffee taste barely coming through.

Do you find the robusta or darker roast arabicas more suitablr for milky drinks?


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## pgarrish (May 20, 2017)

I dont have a DB, I have the DTP.

If you are drinking from the cup you brew into, why not run a blank shot into that cup to warm everything up, dry the portafilter with a towel and pop the coffee in - with a Niche you should have no need to weigh out of the grinder, just trust you get out what you put in. Tamp, brew and then do your milk. Since it has an auto shot, you could be filling your milk jug and/or grinding whilst the blank shot is running.

I think it takes me about 5 mins from turning on the DTP to having an espresso, and then another minute or so to do milk (depends how much).

The DB is a lovely machine. Paired with a Niche you probably have a cafe level setup there. Also, you shouldn't need to flush the water tank every time you use the machine. if you are worried how long the water is sitting, just half fill the tank.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Coffee Fan Guy said:


> Improving my workflow today and finding the Lavazza Tierra enjoyable straight 1:3 but very diluted in a latte. Coffee taste barely coming through.
> 
> Do you find the robusta or darker roast arabicas more suitablr for milky drinks?


 I was using 17g in a 300ml /10oz americano with about 60g coming out. I can't say it was a very strong drink. It was weaker and less balanced for me at ratios much less than that but I was using a mazzer mini. You could try that ratio in milk as initially I found that Niche could produce an acidic drink. That went pretty quickly but the taste was more intense than I ever achieved with the mini. From memory that particular bag mentions 14 in 60 out in 25 to 30sec.

It seems Sage would put over 20g in maybe 22. It's another option and while people may say grinds must be able to fully expand I'd say yes and no. It's something that can be tried. Don't go so high that it interferes with fitting the portafilter.

Using different beans gets interesting. I generally only use origin fresh roasted. Some refer to these as exotic because they can taste of all sorts of things. Blends can too. In my experience darker roasts do give stronger flavours but liking them is another matter as it depends on preferences. For instance Sumatra Mandheling is a pretty powerful bean that some drink in milk but an espresso drinker might say no way. Where it actually comes from can make a difference as well. On that one in my americano I use around 7-8g other wise it is too strong to appreciate certain subtle flavours.  I'm inclined to think that aspect doesn't matter so much in milk.

Not sure where flushing the water tank came from in a recent post. Machine yes, I find a couple of seconds is enough mostly to ensure all of the pipes inside are full.

John

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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Step21 said:


> I'd recommend the Cafelat Robot.





Slowpress said:


> I have to chime in as a long time user of the original Flair. It is dead simple to get a truly excellent espresso. It is compact for travel, and equally great at home. The preheating is dead simple (I prefer using a moka pot base to both steam heat the brewchamber & boil my brew water.) The clean up is dead simple. In less than 5 minutes I have a delicious espresso.
> 
> Certainly, at the beginning, it seems like there are many things/parts to deal with; but once you develop a routine, it becomes second nature (muscle memory) and I would bet I can deliver an espresso & cleanup in the same time it takes to make espresso on a semi-automatic machine.
> 
> ...





KTD said:


> I think I paid 330 for mine brand new boxed off eBay, and recently there has been/is a few new boxed pro's , stradivari's and a wooden europiccola
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

A couple of things Hoffman missed

Cleanup - if you stop the shot early, go and enjoy the shot. Place another cup underneath and put the tamper in the lever claw. The weight will draw out the rest of the coffee and give a bone dry puck for cleanup. Or just pull the levers down when cleaning up.

Temperature management - for light roast pull a dummy shot with the pressurised basket while heating pro basket and dispersion screen while you are organising grind/water etc

I do agree with him in that I find a sweet spot around 17g and running towards 1:3. He prefers it a tad shorter. And generating 9 bars takes some effort.

I've heard that Joe Frex? Scales fit. Available from Bella Barista.

You can also make interesting Moka/aeropress/filter type coffees with the pressurised basket so I wouldn't dismiss it's usefulness.

Seems a fair enough review.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Isnt the Robot more faff than a Sage DB? I know it's not Rok but that required so much pre heating and messing about that even i thought it was beyond the pale... Plus light roasts .

Anyway to the OP, I am sure he isn't considering this but don't change out your gear until you have lived with it a while and tried a few quality coffee through it .


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's certainly quicker to use than a Pavoni and I would say a lot easier to get consistent results out of it. I used to drink coffee in a cafe that used a Pavoni.Not all that long ago but sadly now shut. It needs a rather set procedure to achieve that. He made excellent coffee with it. I'd suggest people who want to start using one should buy a timer of the type that people use as a shot timer until they find what suites and develop the rhythm that is needed. There are other variable than just pure grinder setting / ratios and shot time.

The video on the Robot looks good but grind for pressure and time will have been sorted out. As it does on a Pavoni. Personally I would unscrew the gauge and use ptfe to get it at a more sensible angle.

The main gain of the old version is the standby heat setting. Nothing else other than used is more likely to have problems and they seem to get them pretty often probably down to maintenance. Still it helps keep used prices up as people find it hard to resist buying one.

Robot - aeropress on steroids and if some one has had problems using one of those - some do what's different? Nothing essentially.

John

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## Slowpress (Jun 11, 2019)

I think traditional espresso machine users scratch their heads a bit at this type of manual device (Flair, Robot), but once you have given it a run through a few times (and cemented your workflow), there is complete pleasure to be had in the process. The "bother", previously mentioned, really isn't there (any more than it is for a traditional espresso machine cleanup; and don't forget the scale accommodation & maintenance part & repairs that go with a traditional espresso machine... those, to me, are a real bother!?). I find the whole manual process very "mindful", quite like the benefits of mediation. It is completely quiet, requires concentration & focus, all in a very peaceful & calming way. Most enjoyable.

Yes, it is different, and it takes an open-minded approach for the first few runs, but the espresso is so very good, you will be amazed at how something so simple and calming can add even more enjoyment to the espresso experience. Like any other espresso machine, you still have to take the time to dial in your beans, find the perfect brew temperature for the roast, determine the pressure & preinfusion parameters, dose ratio; you shouldn't just use it once or twice & give up. I will say it also gave me very promising shots right off the bat, so perhaps even easier to dial in than a traditional machine (in my limited experience).

It's a whole different type of enjoyment, not better or worse necessarily, just one other wonderful way to prepare & drink an excellent shot. I think there is merit in having both a manual device like this, as well as an espresso machine. They each have their benefits. So, @Coffee Fan Guy, don't abandon your Dual Boiler (please don't!!); instead, persist, and once you've mastered the DB, you've earned your badge to start collecting coffee gear & apparatus, like the rest of us fated souls! Then you can buy a Flair &/or a Robot!?

Also: There are numerous tiny scales to fit in the confined base of both Flair & Robot, especially on the Alibaba sites & the like. You might even find one in your local kitchen shop. I did! It is harder to find scales with an incorporated timer to fit, but they are beginning to be more available.


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## Coffee Fan Guy (Jun 17, 2020)

Slowpress said:


> I think traditional espresso machine users scratch their heads a bit at this type of manual device (Flair, Robot), but once you have given it a run through a few times (and cemented your workflow), there is complete pleasure to be had in the process. The "bother", previously mentioned, really isn't there (any more than it is for a traditional espresso machine cleanup; and don't forget the scale accommodation & maintenance part & repairs that go with a traditional espresso machine... those, to me, are a real bother!?). I find the whole manual process very "mindful", quite like the benefits of mediation. It is completely quiet, requires concentration & focus, all in a very peaceful & calming way. Most enjoyable.
> 
> Yes, it is different, and it takes an open-minded approach for the first few runs, but the espresso is so very good, you will be amazed at how something so simple and calming can add even more enjoyment to the espresso experience. Like any other espresso machine, you still have to take the time to dial in your beans, find the perfect brew temperature for the roast, determine the pressure & preinfusion parameters, dose ratio; you shouldn't just use it once or twice & give up. I will say it also gave me very promising shots right off the bat, so perhaps even easier to dial in than a traditional machine (in my limited experience).
> 
> ...


 Posted Tuesday at 15:13 (edited)

Sorry but I think that my point is being lost somehow...

I am questioning the value of £1000+ spent on SDB. It may have been good value when it came out 8 or 9 years ago, but it is difficult to justify this ask and the hefty out of warrant maintenance schedule (no parts available for us to buy) today in light of other options there are in the market. That's it.

I fully expect that the thermojet currently available on the Barista Pro to make its way to the reasonably priced Dual Jet Pro when it is being replaced. That will make the case for the SDB at 4 to 5 times the cost even less convincing. No white glove service however glossy it is will make up for this!

*Edited Tuesday at 15:14 by Coffee Fan Guy*

Far from abandoning the DB - but still questioning its value!

The Robot would suit me better than the Flair I think.... But I can't justify having more gear really. I am a minimalist at heart, and not a collector. But I know what I will be buying if/when the DB dies on me.

"you've earned your badge to start collecting coffee gear & apparatus"

What badges are there to collect?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There have been machines about with thermothingy steam and boiler for brew. Also I think one with dual thermojet. German make better know for meat slicers and I'd hope it's a lot better than the same makers grinder.

The barista pro is £700 the db is no longer on Sage's web site so have to switch to $. BP $900 DB $1500. The grinder in the BP is worth about $120 comparing the BE with an Infuser.. Add another pump, another thermothingy, more temperature control, more wiring and prices will increase. It still leaves the factor that puts some off thermo anything and that's scale. The extra thermothingy might mean that oracle / db case tooling needs to be used to gain space.They sell a lot less of these and that aspect will show in the price.

Things get really interesting when the DB is compared with other dual boilers with the same spec. There is one oddity. They expect the volumetric aspect to be used the way it is on their other machines that have it. Commercial and higher end prosumer don't but there is a rather large increase in price. It also has a couple of features that in real terms are design flaws.  Not the O rings a couple of other things.

Due to the parent company policy people wont be able to repair them themselves what ever they buy. Breville have tried that and also offering refurb exchanges. Currently an official repair seems to have to involve Sage in the UK. Actually the machines in the UK are handled by a distribution company that may have no connection to Breville.

Looks like the only part of europe that doesn't show the DB currently is the UK. It's 1200 euro in others so should be £1036 here. That is pretty remarkable value for what is in it compared with others. Perhaps that's why it's not shown now. Think it was £1300 or more when it was shown and has been higher.

LOL Also from my point of view considering theory and other things the DB is better than a BE and from posts on here the thermojet machines have exactly the same aspects that BE users will have noticed. Not that this should put people off buying Sage products in general. They can all make good coffee.

Oh and there have been changes since the DB came out. Some of their other coffee products have evolved as well. Usually to increase probably service life.

John

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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

Fez said:


> I agree. Buyers remorse is a common thing. I feel that unless you've used a flair and cino and prefer it to your current setup it would be massively unfair comparing them just based on reviews.
> 
> When it comes to coffee equipment especially, you can go off mainstream reviews. Here's an example, I Google best espresso machine and this was in one of the first links
> 
> View attachment 33074


 I love how one of the only two 'reasons to buy' is also potentially a 'reason to avoid'


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It seems to be an odd sort of market to me. Some makers cobble together bits and pieces from commercial machines and invest as little as possible in making them. Breville must have put rather a lot in at some point.

John

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