# Help with new barista express



## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

Hi

I'm new so apologies if this has been covered already but couldn't see it. 
Just bought a sage barista express 875 and am struggling for a decent strength shot. 
my beans were roasted 16/12 I've tried two different types with the same result. With tamping my level is nearly spot on and little need for the razor tool. I've tried various grind sizes which seems to have little effect from 10 to 1 currently on 4. My coffee comes out too weak like a light brown with a little to non existent crema. Now the pressure gauge shows it in range I get a solid puck when emptying but if you look at the manual I seem to be having a mixture of issues on the tips section for which there is no help. The flow starts slowly after 8 seconds on most attempts but then flows too quickly and produces a light brown coffee. I'm trying to be patient but frustrated at the moment as my old basic delonghi made a much better coffee than this ☹ . I long for a strong coffee with a thick crema. 
please help.
Thanks Joel


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

What dose in grams? 
ditch the tool and see my post below. 
sounds like 1. Not enough coffee or 2. Not fine enough grind. 
what level is the roast? I've been told the BE grinder struggles to get light roasts ground fine enough


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Also your beans are 2 weeks old, have they been stored air tight and out of sun?


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> What dose in grams?
> ditch the tool and see my post below.
> sounds like 1. Not enough coffee or 2. Not fine enough grind.
> what level is the roast? I've been told the BE grinder struggles to get light roasts ground fine enough


 18g

it did the same even on the finest setting, are you suggesting more coffee and tamp harder to pack it in? Shown pic of coffee it doesn't say the roast level on it.


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Also your beans are 2 weeks old, have they been stored air tight and out of sun?


 Yes to both

i thought that was quite fresh?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

It is if you keep it air right. 
show a pic of the beans. At 18g you will need to grind finer. If that doesn't work try 19g.

You might need to adjust your grinder


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> It is if you keep it air right.
> show a pic of the beans. At 18g you will need to grind finer. If that doesn't work try 19g.
> 
> You might need to adjust your grinder


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

I'd even say start at 20g. I don't know why people bother with less than that as a starting point on a 54mm basket.


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

-Mac said:


> I'd even say start at 20g. I don't know why people bother with less than that as a starting point on a 54mm basket.


 Thanks I'll give a go


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

20g ongrind size 3 had some overspill tho bit too much coffee. Looks bit darker and crema hasnt disappeared after 10 seconds ! ??‍♂


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

Crema was still thin and disappeared quickly. Coffee bit more sour but also watery. This is frustrating.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why are you so concerned about crema? It doesn't taste particularly nice.

How much beverage are you ending up with in the cup in grams? How much are you aiming for?

Are you still grinding on '4'? If so, go finer.


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

MWJB said:


> Why are you so concerned about crema? It doesn't taste particularly nice.
> 
> How much beverage are you ending up with in the cup in grams? How much are you aiming for?
> 
> Are you still grinding on '4'? If so, go finer.


 Through previous experience a crema that is viscous and stays thought the drink is more enjoyable and better quality. I'm no expert but works for me. Haven't yet weighed post pour.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

By default recent barista express machines do not seem to grind fine enough, even at the lowest grind setting (I've tried 2). I would suggest adjusting the upper burr setting (finer) as described in the barista pro manual on page 17 (same process for the Express).

https://www.sageappliances.com/content/dam/sage/uk/en/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES878-instruction-manual.pdf

As you grind finer you should be able to fit more in the basket - I've found 19g usually works best .

Weighing and timing will help to compare extractions as you adjust the grind size.


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

HVL87 said:


> By default recent barista express machines do not seem to grind fine enough, even at the lowest grind setting (I've tried 2). I would suggest adjusting the upper burr setting (finer) as described in the barista pro manual on page 17 (same process for the Express).
> 
> https://www.sageappliances.com/content/dam/sage/uk/en/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES878-instruction-manual.pdf
> 
> ...


 Thanks for this I'll have a go


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Can you post a video of your shot prep and pull?

Which basket are you using in the pf?
How long does the shot take to pour now? From the point you hit the button.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Iamjoelpowell said:


> Through previous experience a crema that is viscous and stays thought the drink is more enjoyable and better quality. I'm no expert but works for me. Haven't yet weighed post pour.


 The less beverage you pull out, the more viscous it will be.

You should be weighing each shot to know when to stop it.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Iamjoelpowell said:


> Crema was still thin and disappeared quickly. Coffee bit more sour but also watery. This is frustrating.


 Aim for 20g in/40g out in 30 secs (to start with), using the double non-pressurised basket. That should give you something reasonable to start from for dark-medium roasts.


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

-Mac said:


> Can you post a video of your shot prep and pull?
> 
> Which basket are you using in the pf?
> How long does the shot take to pour now? From the point you hit the button.


 Will do later thanks.


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

-Mac said:


> Aim for 20g in/40g out in 30 secs (to start with), using the double non-pressurised basket. That should give you something reasonable to start from for dark-medium roasts.


 Thanks I'll have a go


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

-Mac said:


> Can you post a video of your shot prep and pull?
> 
> Which basket are you using in the pf?
> How long does the shot take to pour now? From the point you hit the button.


 The double non pressurised


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Iamjoelpowell said:


> View attachment 34947


 That roast looks fairly light to me. So I reckon as others have said the issue is the BE grinder not fine enough so you need to adjust the burrs


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

Iamjoelpowell said:


> The double non pressurised


 Won't let me upload vids from phone

I adjust the burr one mark finer. With 19g of beans I only got out 31g of coffee. 
pressure gauge went just past optimimum range and pour was a trickle I guess agjusting the grinder itself is more effective. I'm gonna take it back a couple of notches on the dial next to see how that works.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

You have to post vids on YouTube then share the link


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Iamjoelpowell said:


> Won't let me upload vids from phone
> 
> I adjust the burr one mark finer. With 19g of beans I only got out 31g of coffee.
> pressure gauge went just past optimimum range and pour was a trickle I guess agjusting the grinder itself is more effective. I'm gonna take it back a couple of notches on the dial next to see how that works.


 What do you mean, you, "only got out 31g"? Were you aiming for more? If so, why didn't you run the pump for longer?


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

>>I adjust the burr one mark finer. With 19g of beans I only got out 31g of coffee.

Was that with the double shot button? If so, and if it's still on factory output, you need to make the grind bigger to let more water through. How much water do you get out, on double shot, if you run a shot with no coffee in the pf? I've concluded that it's not really volumetric - it just runs water for a certain amount of time (programmable) and that it will only pour out 60ml (through grinds) if your grind sixe happens to match the grind size they use as the default in the factory.

You could try this: program the double shot button to let out 100ml of water (without any coffee in the pf), then when you use grinds (of whatever size), stop it manually when you get to 30 seconds of elapsed time and measure how much coffee you get in the shot glass/cup. From that, you'll be able to calculate if you need to go finer or coarser to achieve 40g out in 30 secs.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

-Mac said:


> >>I adjust the burr one mark finer. With 19g of beans I only got out 31g of coffee.
> 
> Was that with the double shot button? If so, and if it's still on factory output, you need to make the grind bigger to let more water through. How much water do you get out, on double shot, if you run a shot with no coffee in the pf? I've concluded that it's not really volumetric - it just runs water for a certain amount of time (programmable) and that it will only pour out 60ml (through grinds) if your grind sixe happens to match the grind size they use as the default in the factory.
> 
> You could try this: program the double shot button to let out 100ml of water (without any coffee in the pf), then when you use grinds (of whatever size), stop it manually when you get to 30 seconds of elapsed time and measure how much coffee you get in the shot glass/cup. From that, you'll be able to calculate if you need to go finer or coarser to achieve 40g out in 30 secs.


 Why not just use the manual button and pull 40g if that's what you want? If you're aiming for 40g there isn't much excuse for ending up with under 37g or over 43g.

It doesn't matter if it takes a time other than 30s, if the grind setting is correct & dose/prep consistent, it'll still taste good if the time wanders by a few seconds.


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

-Mac said:


> >>I adjust the burr one mark finer. With 19g of beans I only got out 31g of coffee.
> 
> Was that with the double shot button? If so, and if it's still on factory output, you need to make the grind bigger to let more water through. How much water do you get out, on double shot, if you run a shot with no coffee in the pf? I've concluded that it's not really volumetric - it just runs water for a certain amount of time (programmable) and that it will only pour out 60ml (through grinds) if your grind sixe happens to match the grind size they use as the default in the factory.
> 
> You could try this: program the double shot button to let out 100ml of water (without any coffee in the pf), then when you use grinds (of whatever size), stop it manually when you get to 30 seconds of elapsed time and measure how much coffee you get in the shot glass/cup. From that, you'll be able to calculate if you need to go finer or coarser to achieve 40g out in 30 secs.


 Cheers Mac this sounds doable


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

MWJB said:


> What do you mean, you, "only got out 31g"? Were you aiming for more? If so, why didn't you run the pump for longer?


 I reset the pump to factory setting to see if I was putting too much water in. I will adjust again to my preference.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Why not just use the manual button and pull 40g if that's what you want? If you're aiming for 40g there isn't much excuse for ending up with under 37g or over 43g.
> 
> It doesn't matter if it takes a time other than 30s, if the grind setting is correct & dose/prep consistent, it'll still taste good if the time wanders by a few seconds.


 True. But if something's wrong with the programming on the button that's supposed to let unlimited water out, and it's only ever letting out a short amount, you'll never get to 40g. At least by reprogramming it for way more than 40g you'll guarantee that enough water comes out (and you can always stop it manually using 30 secs as a rough guide in the first instance).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

-Mac said:


> True. But if something's wrong with the programming on the button that's supposed to let unlimited water out, and it's only ever letting out a short amount, you'll never get to 40g. At least by reprogramming it for way more than 40g you'll guarantee that enough water comes out (and you can always stop it manually using 30 secs as a rough guide in the first instance).


 I'm still not understanding why you would manually stop at 30s? If you're looking for 40g, manually pull 40g (plus/minus a couple of grams). Adjust grinder setting to steer the taste.

If you pull to a time & hope it will fall at your weight, you'll be messing about a lot longer.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

MWJB said:


> I'm still not understanding why you would manually stop at 30s? If you're looking for 40g, manually pull 40g (plus/minus a couple of grams). Adjust grinder setting to steer the taste.
> 
> If you pull to a time & hope it will fall at your weight, you'll be messing about a lot longer.


 1) Might be my misunderstanding, but I don't know what button the 'manual' button you're referring to is. There are 2 buttons to start the pump on a BE, a 1 shot and a 2 shot.

2) If the programming for the buttons is messed up, you may never get 40g worth of water out (it might have been accidentally reprogrammed so that only, for example, 20g of water comes out).

3) If you program the 2 shot button so that 100g of water comes out (through an empty pf), that will always yield >40g of coffee out in 30 secs through grinds (if you don't stop it manually and if the grind isn't choking it horrendously).

4) So, if you're going to get a guaranteed minimum of 40g of coffee out, using a 30 sec manual stop will let you know how close the grind is to a 1:2 ratio in 30 secs (which is a fair starting point and you can adjust from there).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

-Mac said:


> 1) Might be my misunderstanding, but I don't know what button the 'manual' button you're referring to is. There are 2 buttons to start the pump on a BE, a 1 shot and a 2 shot.
> 
> 2) If the programming for the buttons is messed up, you may never get 40g worth of water out (it might have been accidentally reprogrammed so that only, for example, 20g of water comes out).
> 
> ...


 You say there is no manual mode, but then in 3) you say "if you don't stop it manually"? This suggests that you can stop it manually?

If 4) really works, hats off to Sage, it makes me wonder why every day there is another thread where people are struggling with this machine. The grind sets the extraction at a ratio, it doesn't set the ratio (this is a personal preference). There is not now, and never has been a stipulation that shots must take 30s. They might well average that, but different beans brew at different speeds. Even the same bean will wander a little in time at similar extractions. Time is not a good guide to extraction & flavour balance.

If you can employ a 30s manual stop, why can't you employ a 40g manual stop?


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

MWJB said:


> You say there is no manual mode, but then in 3) you say "if you don't stop it manually"? This suggests that you can stop it manually?
> 
> If 4) really works, hats off to Sage, it makes me wonder why every day there is another thread where people are struggling with this machine. The grind sets the extraction at a ratio, it doesn't set the ratio (this is a personal preference). There is not now, and never has been a stipulation that shots must take 30s. They might well average that, but different beans brew at different speeds. Even the same bean will wander a little in time at similar extractions. Time is not a good guide to extraction & flavour balance.
> 
> If you can employ a 30s manual stop, why can't you employ a 40g manual stop?


 There's no manual mode that pours water through until the tank runs dry. You can only pour (as far as I know) to the upper limit of what is set on one of the shot buttons (hence why if it's been reset to less than 40g, you'll never get more than 40g out). You can stop it manually, yes, but not pour for as long as possible (unless you've programmed it that way).

I agree there's no stipulation for 30 secs, and that different beans brew differently, but it's a useful starting point to eliminate one of the variables. Brew ratio is achieved by the amount of water you put through the grinds, to the amount of coffee in the pf, yes? So if you had 20g of coffee in the pf but it was programmed that you could only ever get 40g out, you'd never be able to get weaker than 1:2 (stronger, yes, by stopping earlier), unless you hit the shot button again to pull another 40g of water through (but who would want to do that?).

Upshot, you *can* achieve a 40g manual stop, but only if more than 40g of water input is going through in the first place. If you've programmed it so you know that way more than 40g of water is going through (for a one button shot), stopping it at 30 secs is a useful indicator of where you're at.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The only useful indication you get from a 30s shot is that you started the pump half a minute earlier 

Shot time isn't a controllable variable. Dose, grind setting & brew ratio are the inputs that you decide prior to making the shot & that you vary based on the taste of result (even 'not so much' for dose). At a given dose & grind setting, brew ratio has the biggest impact on extraction...if you have too much variability here & too many shots falling short in weight, you'll get sour, under-extracted cups. Then if you grind finer, still let it run for 30s at same programmed dispense you'll get stronger, shorter, more under-extracted cups.

Why do you want to pour for as long as possible/until the tank runs dry? 40g shouldn't be difficult to pull from an 19g dose, 60-70g should certainly be possible (with the option to stop anywhere before, that you need to, manually).

Maybe there is something I'm not quite getting here, but pulling a desired brew ratio seems a bizarrely convoluted and unnecessarily complex process on this machine.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

You can run a manual shot by pressing and holding down the double shot button. Once you release the button the pre-infusion will end and the extraction will continue until you press the button again.

I tend to dose 19g, aim for a fixed yield and time the shot. I'll adjust the grind according to taste and time.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

HVL87 said:


> You can run a manual shot by pressing and holding down the double shot button. Once you release the button the pre-infusion will end and the extraction will continue until you press the button again.
> 
> I tend to dose 19g, aim for a fixed yield and time the shot. I'll adjust the grind according to taste and time.


 Good to know, thanks


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

MWJB said:


> The only useful indication you get from a 30s shot is that you started the pump half a minute earlier ?
> 
> Shot time isn't a controllable variable. Dose, grind setting & brew ratio are the inputs that you decide prior to making the shot & that you vary based on the taste of result (even 'not so much' for dose). At a given dose & grind setting, brew ratio has the biggest impact on extraction...if you have too much variability here & too many shots falling short in weight, you'll get sour, under-extracted cups. Then if you grind finer, still let it run for 30s at same programmed dispense you'll get stronger, shorter, more under-extracted cups.
> 
> ...


 I'll start by saying thanks to HVL87 for clarifying the manual button usage on the BE.

I don't think we're far apart but you keep crossing your questions and have set up a straw man about the tank running dry. I didn't say anybody should do that.

>>60-70g should certainly be possible (with the option to stop anywhere before, that you need to, manually).

I agree, but (before I knew about the manual shot control and saying about using the shot buttons) I said you can only get 60-70g out if the shot button is programmed to let 60-70g of water out. The point I was trying to make (that got lost) is that if you're aiming for a 1:2 ratio and you stop the shot at 30 secs (manually) but have 60-70g in the cup, you've not hit your ratio.

What do you think about the Matt Perger video re: dose/yield/time? You say the shot time is not a controllable variable, but you can stop a shot any time.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

-Mac said:


> The point I was trying to make (that got lost) is that if you're aiming for a 1:2 ratio and you stop the shot at 30 secs (manually) but have 60-70g in the cup, you've not hit your ratio.
> 
> What do you think about the Matt Perger video re: dose/yield/time? You say the shot time is not a controllable variable, but you can stop a shot any time.


 You said this, "There's no manual mode that pours water through until the tank runs dry."

If you are brewing by ratio, you don't stop the shot by time. So you should never end up with 60g in the cup if aiming for 40g. If that should happen in a bizarrely short space of time, then you grind finer, aim for 40g again, taste & adjust grind according to what you taste.

Perger's video suggests quite rightly that generally shot times will increase as you grind finer, but the grind setting is doing the work, not the time.

Check out this other video by Matt Perger, note the consistency in extraction follows the weight, not the time. A similar test was carried out by Ben Kaminsky & published on the La Marzocco USA blog. My own espresso making (and percolation in general) shows that the std deviation in time is pretty much always larger than that of extraction.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

MWJB said:


> You said this, "There's no manual mode that pours water through until the tank runs dry."


 Yes, but I didn't say anywhere that you would want to.


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## Iamjoelpowell (Jan 2, 2020)

Excuse the steamy glass. 
Best one yet slight adjust to grind amount 20g beans grind size 2

adjusted single cup to 100 ml output

I'm getting much closer to what I was after now thanks.

dreading changing beans now tho ?‍♂?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You need to check if the grinder has been set correctly.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/49058-how-to-check-any-sage-grinder/?do=embed

As to the rest Sage's comments on tuning a bean are rubbish especially in respect to gauge reading where machines have them. Probably more so when they haven't actually. The aim is to achieve a balanced flavour. This is primarily done via ratio of grams of coffee in to grams of shot out and shot time can figure as well. Playing with time as well is best left for later as it adds even more shots to try. As the machine uses preinfusion I would suggest 30 sec but if as the machine is volumetric it produces what is required at some other time fine. When that happened I usually found it was longer.

The optimum range on the gauge is the whole of the blue sector or a *little *past it as more than that will upset the volumetric aspects which actually can work rather well meaning no need to use a timer unless you are one of the people that think a couple of g of shot variation alters taste - by a couple I mean 2 and actually I would say it can be a touch better than that. Time will be pretty consistent providing grind preparation is as well.

A balanced flavour relates to tasting notes and the drinkers preferences. There isn't a magic ratio that will always suite a bean. I find it usually lies between a ratio of 2 and 3 sometimes a little higher. Some beans can be rather tricky in this respect as they have one rather dominant flavour. Brewed at usual strengths that can mask any or all of the others. This relates to some origin beans in particular. It shouldn't relate to blends as that is the whole idea of blending.

John

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