# Vesuvius Power Loss



## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

For some unknown reason my Vesuvius has packed in. The main power switch is on and illuminated but none of the electrics seem to be working - dead screen, no effect when lifting the lever etc.

I opened it up and there's no obvious fault, so before I go opening electronic casings and the like I thought I'd check in here for some advice. Any ideas where to look, especially from @DavecUK

Here's a pic of the insides:









Thanks


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Had everything been OK during and until the close of play from your last brewing session, have you done anything during the preriod. ?.

Jon.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

xpresso said:


> Had everything been OK during and until the close of play from your last brewing session, have you done anything during the preriod. ?.
> 
> Jon.


Yep, all perfectly normal from the last session. It switched itself on this morning as per usual and at some point lost power. The group head was warm to the touch, so I'm thinking possibly some internal fuse blew.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

A quick glance at the manual mentions a water supply switch, in the correct position ?, not sure if this would cut the machine off but in the absence of someone with knowledge/own one comes along.

Jon.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Page 22 of 24 of the manual I'm looking at mentions two re-settable switches the effect of which if tripped will no doubt put the machine into a fail safe mode, there's also mention of unplugging the machine in effect re-booting owing to the electronics control system.

Jon.


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## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

I imagine you already checked the power cable fuse.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

There's power to the machine because the main green on/off switch is illuminated when switched on, no obvious loose wires or damaged wires, so my best guess is something within the control board electrics has tripped/burnt out. There's no water or dampness around any of the internals. I haven't opened any of the internal electrical housings yet as I figured I'd ask for advice before doing that in case I make anything worse


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

...also tried The IT Crowd solution but that didn't work either


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There is a fuse receptacle besides where the main power plugs into the machine (it's part of the black fitting), check the fuse in this, although I would have thought if this fuse had gone the switch would not illuminate as I believe it is the first fuse before all electronics including the switch. It's worth a try though.

It's also possible a wire has come loose, or a ribbon cable to the panel screen or main board is loose...worth giving those a press and seeing if it will power on. So far there has never been a main board failure in any Vesuvius, so it's unlikely to be that and more likely to be a simple problem like a fuse or loose wire.

P.S. There has once been a defective switch, so it "*might"* illuminate (not sure), but not provide power...although it's the switch illuminating bit that seems to exclude this


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## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Hi as described, the problem could be a fuse in the main board, to remove the case there are 2 screws on on the top visible and one on the bottom, you can tilt the machine on one side and remove the tray under the machine to look inside much better. When removed the cap of the main board there is a sticker with the electric wiring position of the fuse included. Let me know you have checked. Paolo


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

@Tsangpa any news.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Not yet - yesterday was spent core drilling through a concrete bathroom floor for a shower waste, so hopefully I'll get chance to look at the V today/tomorrow. It's probably just a fuse issue


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Ok keep us updated.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Jony said:


> Ok keep us updated.


If it is a fuse and was correctly rated, it always begs the question WHY ?.

Good Luck with the drilling, trust the concretes not reinforced.

Jon.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

xpresso said:


> If it is a fuse and was correctly rated, it always begs the question WHY ?.
> 
> Good Luck with the drilling, trust the concretes not reinforced.
> 
> Jon.


It's probably because of the manufacturers desire to protect the expensive stuff. The fuse on the Orchestrale control board is not ACS choice but the board manufacturers choice and will have been done with a view to protecting the expensive board components. it's probably run close to the edge and perhaps a surge triggered it. The fuse in a plug is to protect the mains cable...the electrical regs don't give a monkeys about your expensive electrical appliance. So you can plug an appliance (heater) drawing 500Wkw into the wall, but the rating of the fuse in the plug will often depend on how thick the cable to the appliance is...Nothing to stop a 3 amp fuse being put in, but if the cable is below a certain cross section you HAVE to put a 3 amp fuse in the plug.

There is another fuse in the V next to the mains input, that was a 10 amp jobbie and could (rarely) blow. ACS may have changed it to a larger value now. The problem with slow blo fuses on something like the Orchestrale board is if they used those, then no surge would be accommodated for and they would blow all the time....swings and roundabouts.

now this doesn't mean that there is not a fault and that another fuse may not simply blow....but without magic blue smoke or obvious component burnout on the board....it's probably just a fuse swap and job done....of it could just be a loose ribbon cable or board cable?


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> It's probably because of the manufacturers desire to protect the expensive stuff. The fuse on the Orchestrale control board is not ACS choice but the board manufacturers choice and will have been done with a view to protecting the expensive board components. it's probably run close to the edge and perhaps a surge triggered it. The fuse in a plug is to protect the mains cable...the electrical regs don't give a monkeys about your expensive electrical appliance. So you can plug an appliance (heater) drawing 500Wkw into the wall, but the rating of the fuse in the plug will often depend on how thick the cable to the appliance is...Nothing to stop a 3 amp fuse being put in, but if the cable is below a certain cross section you HAVE to put a 3 amp fuse in the plug.
> 
> There is another fuse in the V next to the mains input, that was a 10 amp jobbie and could (rarely) blow. ACS may have changed it to a larger value now. The problem with slow blo fuses on something like the Orchestrale board is if they used those, then no surge would be accommodated for and they would blow all the time....swings and roundabouts.
> 
> now this doesn't mean that there is not a fault and that another fuse may not simply blow....but without magic blue smoke or obvious component burnout on the board....it's probably just a fuse swap and job done....of it could just be a loose ribbon cable or board cable?


I like that DaveC, '''magic blue smoke''' ..... but not forgetting that acrid smell, if it's insulation involved.

I know it's all speculation with this machine, problem as yet to be defined, but I feel it's a bit naughty to fit replaceable fuses internally not everyone is happy at the early stages of minor surgery or prepared to expose the innards or having then to have a repair centre complete a simple job.

Jon.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

xpresso said:


> I like that DaveC, '''magic blue smoke''' ..... but not forgetting that acrid smell, if it's insulation involved.
> 
> I know it's all speculation with this machine, problem as yet to be defined, but I feel it's a bit naughty to fit replaceable fuses internally not everyone is happy at the early stages of minor surgery or prepared to expose the innards or having then to have a repair centre complete a simple job.
> 
> Jon.


That's the decision of the manufacturer of the Orchestrale board (if that is indeed the problem), not a lot anyone can do about it. It's like internal fuses (or worse still non replaceable fusible links) in any appliances you have at home (TVs, computers, assorted electronics). You may not like it, even thought the manufacturers have their reasons. I don't like non replaceable batteries in smartphones, I think it's really taking the piss, but there are few if any phones sold in 2018 that have replaceable batteries.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@Tsangpa I hope you got this sorted. So far, touch wood, mine has been fine but when you do fix it I might add fuses to my back up list of spares


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Hey Steve,

Still haven't had chance to check the fault as it's been one job after the other so I've been slumming it with the Technivorm 

As soon as I've had a look I'll let everyone know.

Thanks


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Tsangpa said:


> Hey Steve,
> 
> Still haven't had chance to check the fault as it's been one job after the other so I've been slumming it with the Technivorm
> 
> ...


You do realise you'll need to go through the initiation ceremony all over again to get your feet back under the table.

Jon.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Ciao @Paolo_Cortese and @DavecUK

I finally found the time away from the myriad of other jobs to investigate the fuses in the Vesuvius. All the fuses on the main board are ok - nice clear glass so you can quickly see if anything is blown.

I also took a look at the fuse inside the power board - bit of a bugger to get to, but that's ok too.

I had a look at the wiring - nothing obvious loose. I pushed all the connectors and ribbons, again nothing loose. The only thin I noticed were a couple of pools of fluid in the frame behind the group. They're clear and thick and appear to be some lubricating fluid that's just seeped due to the heat. They're not in contact with anything other than the frame so I don't think they're anything to do with the issue.

I re-assembled the machine and switched it on, but still no signs of life other than the green illuminated main power switch, so I'm lost as to what the fault could be.

I've attached a few photos from the inside to see if you can spot anything. BTW it's a great machine to work on, neat, tidy, and I love the fact that all of the screws are exactly the same length and thread, it makes it so much simpler.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

and some more


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## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

I'd measure the input and output of the power board. But you need to be very good friend with the line current to do that. If there is no input voltage 230 Vac then the problemn is with the wiring to the power board. If there is input voltage and no output and fuse ok then the board is the problem. Measuring voltages at different points could help diagnose the issue.

Good luck.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Have you tried the rocker switch, have seen it mentioned more than a few times on the Vesuvius forum threads. That some was faulty


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## iulianato (May 5, 2015)

I would not recommend to measure while powered but if you are confortabile with this, probably you know that your body must NOT be grounded and make sure you are not touching something that is grounded like the machine casing. Basically your body must be isolated from the ground so the current would not find his way through your body.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

I'm not going to be fiddling with a multimeter inside a live unit, I'll leave that one to the professionals 

In terms of the rocker switch it's illuminated green when switched to the on position, so there's power going through the switch so I doubt that's the fault. No loose wires and no blown fuses leads me to think the main board has failed in some way.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The power board controls the pump, but not much else, The FG304 mag drive pump requires 24V DC, which this board delivers. The Orchastrale main board has it's own power supply from the mains via the power switch. Second photo (in the first batch). with the transformer side being the right the first and 3rd wire connector (working from right to left) are Live and Neutral (Red and Blue). There should be power to those, if not the board won't receive any power and the machine won't work, no display no pump no nothing..

As no Orchestrale board has failed yet (to the best of my knowledge), it seems a reliable part, *of course that doesn't mean that this isn't the first one to fail*. However, it might be wise to suspect a lack of mains input to the Orchestrale board. It's fairly easy to reach and put multimeter probes across these terminals to see if there is power (230V). There are 6 fuses to check on the board (oddly numbered F1 thru 4, F6 and F8, why no F5 and F7 I don't know) but F6 and F7 are not on the wiring diagram? 5 are visible in the photo, the other is behind the transformer (not visible) and that would not be easy to check visually. There might also be a break you cannot see.

I think the Main control board is the place to be looking, but you really need to confirm mains power is present to the two terminals on the board before assuming anything else. If there is power, *with the machine unplugged, get a small mirror on a stick a torch with a tight beam and check the 6 fuses very carefully.* It's not always obvious if they have failed.

If there is no power at the board terminals, the of course the wiring from the board to the main switch and the switch itself must be suspected. If you are near me, I can help you and I pack packs of switches, not specifically V ones, but I have spares I use for my roaster....amber and red illuminated.

P.S. I'm not 100% certain, because it depends how the switch is, but I think it might be possible to have the switch illuminated, but faulty and not passing power!


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

All 6 fuses on the Orchestrale board are intact. The last one to check was a bugger to see, but they're all good with a torch and close up inspection. The sparky is in tomorrow so I'll see about borrowing his current detector - it should help establish if there's 240v to the board.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> P.S. I'm not 100% certain, because it depends how the switch is, but I think it might be possible to have the switch illuminated, but faulty and not passing power!


Agreed, have come across this before.

Jon.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Let's hope it's that as it would be a quick fix


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Tsangpa said:


> Let's hope it's that as it would be a quick fix


Those switches usually have to have power pass to something to illuminate, you can have some with independent illumination, but they often have 6 terminals and I don't exactly know which that switch is..but also it might be sending power to the 24V power supply (which would light it, but the wiring to the Orchestrale control board might have a problem. This giving lit switch showing it's powering something, but that something is the smaller board. For sure though it would be the best thing to find those 2 wires carrying what should be 240Vto the board are dead...because then you know the exact area with the problem and where to effect a fix.

If there is power to the board, then it means *either a fuse has failed where you cannot see the wire break...e.g. where the metal cap is*....or, the *very unlikely possibility that the board has failed*. The best way to check these fuses is with a multimeter, even a cheap £5 will do. When set to the resistance scale you should get a beep or a reading when the connectors are placed each end of the fuse (with the machine unplugged of course). Usually it's better to remove the fuse, but those should test OK on board.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

I'm amazed that Tasangpa can do without the machine for so long, he'll need to winter it down soon !!, also keeping us spellbound, has the supplier contributed toward involvement, is there no divine intervention, it seems so unfair all round







.

Jon.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*If the mains input wires on the control board show 0V, then*...try and take a photo of the switch with a smartphone. You remove the rear panel

and bracket where the transformer is, then insert phone. The switch isn't the easiest thing to get to!

















I have suggested a design change, if possible, to make this switch and it's wiring much easier to get to in future models (by easier I mean a 60 second job to change/inspect one).


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

xpresso said:


> I'm amazed that Tasangpa can do without the machine for so long, he'll need to winter it down soon !!, also keeping us spellbound, has the supplier contributed toward involvement, is there no divine intervention, it seems so unfair all round
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry, Paolo was in touch a few days ago. No lack of support from ACS, the delay is simply because I'm in the middle of project managing a major renovation project, so when I'm not chasing contractors, drilling through concrete floors or hanging radiators I've barely had time to investigate the vesuvius. Fortunately the Tecnivorm has helped to sustain my caffeine levels even though it's more of a faff in the morning when I'm used to an injection of espresso


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Latest update - there's power going to the Orchestrale board so the fault isn't in any of the electrics prior to this. Next up is to remove the board so that I can test the fuses properly.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Tsangpa said:


> Latest update - there's power going to the Orchestrale board so the fault isn't in any of the electrics prior to this. Next up is to remove the board so that I can test the fuses properly.


Well I will bet Paolo is praying it's a fuse!


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## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

If it's not a fuse this is the first time that i have a faulty board. Let's see.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Well, it's not a fuse on the Orchestrale board. I've checked them and they all work. I also removed them and reseated them in case one was loose but still no life in the machine.

Anything else it might be that's worth checking?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Tsangpa said:


> Well, it's not a fuse on the Orchestrale board. I've checked them and they all work. I also removed them and reseated them in case one was loose but still no life in the machine.
> 
> Anything else it might be that's worth checking?


Personally I can't think of anything....Paolo is going to be crying into his coffee.... because I think those boards cost Paolo at least £400 possibly a lot more as they are a 3 group board! (all are modified firmware etc..). The 3 group model was nevessary to control all the different functions.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> Personally I can't think of anything....Paolo is going to be crying into his coffee.... because I think those boards cost Paolo at least £400 possibly a lot more as they are a 3 group board! (all are modified firmware etc..). The 3 group model was nevessary to control all the different functions.


But surely DavecUK- Paolo has some recourse once the board is subjected to a post mortem ?. Jon.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

xpresso said:


> But surely DavecUK- Paolo has some recourse once the board is subjected to a post mortem ?. Jon.


Sadly things don't always work out as you would think between manufacturers..it's not the same as when end customers buy stuff.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

I've asked Paolo if he can send me another board to swap out with this one. I guess that's one of the spares you don't carry for ACS Dave?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Tsangpa said:


> I've asked Paolo if he can send me another board to swap out with this one. I guess that's one of the spares you don't carry for ACS Dave?


*I don't carry any spares*, I offered to for free, but a whole board would have been an expensive thing to hold......especially as none have failed until now. I was envisaging more, small fittings, solenoids, tubing, temp sensors, vac breaker and pressure relief valves, group parts, display ribbon connectors and 1 or 2 displays (which are expensive for what they are), copper pipes and fittings, steam/water valve parts....that sort of thing...The sort of tiny cheaper parts that would be expensive and time consuming to send by air. Things like pumps and control boards are expensive and are not really common failure items.

Depending on the reason it's not working though, might well be something to consider.....it will be interesting to find out what went wrong.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

We are all sat here scratching are heads then. I wonder what it is.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Jony said:


> We are all sat here scratching are heads then. I wonder what it is.


If we were sufficiently conversant with the machine we could run a book on it.... However I would see DavecUK being way out in front.

Jon.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

I've just heard from Paolo and they'll be a new board in the post tomorrow. It'll be a bit of a bugger to change over, but hopefully the V will be back up and running pretty soon!! Depending on the Italian postal system though, which from past memory wasn't terribly reliable


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## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Tsangpa said:


> I've just heard from Paolo and they'll be a new board in the post tomorrow. It'll be a bit of a bugger to change over, but hopefully the V will be back up and running pretty soon!! Depending on the Italian postal system though, which from past memory wasn't terribly reliable


We use DHL not the standard italian post, in any case if you think that it's too much complicated to change the board or simply you don't want to do yourself let me know, so you can pack the machine and i'll call DHL to collect and fix it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Odd though it may sound. It would be good to change the board yourself. You get to know the V and it is probably just as much work to pack it.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> We use DHL not the standard italian post, in any case if you think that it's too much complicated to change the board or simply you don't want to do yourself let me know, so you can pack the machine and i'll call DHL to collect and fix it.


That's so kind of you to offer that Paolo. I think I'll be fine changing the board myself, I could just do with smaller hands at times to reach the different connectors. I'm glad you don't use the Italian postal service, they were never too reliable when I was out there.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Just take lots of pics, mark/number the connectors before removing them from the board....


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## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

@JAN, shipped you will receive an email confirmation with tracking number.

Paolo


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> @JAN, shipped you will receive an email confirmation with tracking number.
> 
> Paolo


That's what you call service, I trust this board solves the problem and Paolo can identify the whyfore.

Jon.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There is a wiring diagram as well.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/vesuvius-electrical-schematic-t57.html#p362


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

The good news is that I received the board today - incredible customer support to get it to me so quickly. The other good news is that the board isn't the source of the fault.

The bad news is that with the board replaced the Vesuvius is still not working. Still no signs of life except for the power switch.

I double checked the cables going to the board and there's definitely power going through them, so it's still head scratching time.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Have you checked the terminations inside of the plug? As in the plug going to the board?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Has to be one of the rocker switches.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Interestingly, Paolo and I discussed this...because those boards have never failed, not one, perhaps in 10 years one will? We both came to the conclusion that it probably was not the board...very unlikely it would fail and nothing work. I thought it might be two separate faults caused by heavy impacts movement in transit. e.g. a Faulty connection to the display (because you say there is nothing on the display) plus a bad connection on the roller switch that is operated by the brew lever. So the board works fine, but it's not able to output anything to the display and the pump doesn't run, because the connection is bad. *Unfortunately this doesn't make sense because the heating elements would be operating, they are not are they?*

*
*

*2. The other possibility is that the low water sensor has a bad connection and the display has a bad connection, so the low water shuts everything off and the display can't show you this (because of a loose ribbbon connector). In this instance, the pump heating elements would not work.*

*It might be worth checking the low water sensing connectors/stuff first, because even if the display has a bad connection, the boilers should start to heat if you find a bad connection and the pump should run.* I can't send you any photos because my low water sensing is different.

If this does start the boilers heating, check the display ribbon connector behind the front panel and that it is in OK.


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## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

The machine seems to be work well now, just a connector off in the back of the display, i was in contact with Tsangpa by WP to solve the problem fastly. Waiting for all necessary checks on the machine and than i think that the thread could be closed.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

It's all working perfectly now. The top ribbon at the back of the display was completely disconnected. When reconnected the display fired up and I was able to turn the machine on through the touch screen. Steams, brews, profiles, all working as normal now.

I don't know if the connector was loose or whether it became disconnected when I was fiddling inside to switch the boards over.

Either way what I've discovered from this is the inner workings of the Vesuvius - lovely machine. But most importantly the support of Paolo and Dave - absolutely incredible. This is by far the best support I've had for any product I've ever bought, when you also consider it was sold ex-display with a parts only warranty it's incredible.

Thank you for all the help and the old board will be in transit to Paolo soon so that he can check it over.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Great response and glad to see it's up and running. Can retire the Mocca Master and get back to pressure profiling now!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

ahhh I will sleep better now,haha


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

As a Vesuvius owner myself, this thread fills me with an enormous sense of wellbeing









Excellent support from @DavecUK and @Paolo_Cortese, very glad its all resolved!


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Full credit to Paolo and the back up afforded including the follow through, it gives you the confidence of dealing with a reputable dealer and all credit to him and worthy of note.

Jon.


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## Tsangpa (Nov 26, 2017)

Paolo went way beyond anything I expected in terms of support. The new board arrived in less than 24 hours all the way from Italy and also bearing in mind it's probably the single most expensive part of the machine too. Then he Whatsapped me to personally walk me through the rest of the fault finding. It's exceptional support.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> As a Vesuvius owner myself, this thread fills me with an enormous sense of wellbeing
> 
> Excellent support from @DavecUK and @Paolo_Cortese, very glad its all resolved!


+1

And mine (No 7) has been used nearly everyday since delivery and always performed perfectly. Proper kit + proper back-up.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

My machine has just developed a similar problem. I went to switch off this afternoon but the display and boilers had no power. The green master switch is still lit. When I turn on at the mains, I get a brief flash on the boiler light and a blank display. The display then turns green or red but blank.

I've checked the display is connected properly which it looks to be. I don't want to tinker around too much as I don't know what I'm doing.

Any thoughts?


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Reconnected the display. Now have power but blank/dead screen


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Display randomly came back on this morning. I think I have a loose connection.


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