# Occasionally acts as if it's out of water when the tank is full



## Silkstonemike (May 28, 2015)

I don't know how to describe this occasional fault accurately but hope someone might be able to point me in the right direction to a fix.

Occasionally the machine acts as if it has run out of water even though there is still a slight trickle coming from the grouphead, but the reservoir is full.

I have even experienced the low water alarm sounding. It's as if there is some occasional blockage and there doesn't appear to be a pattern to when it happens.

Sometimes the pump keeps going for ages as if it is trying to fill an internal reservoir, yet only a trickle coming from the grouphead. This is without any coffee in the portafilter too.

Is that enough to describe the problem?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What machine is it?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Probably an Alex duetto!


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## Hedgehog1979 (May 11, 2015)

Has the machine been descaled recently?

Does it ever work ok?

if so how do you get it back to normal? Turn it off and go back to some other time? Keep persevering with the pull and water comes through?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Hedgehog1979 said:


> Turn it off and go back to some other time?


have you got a time machine


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## Hedgehog1979 (May 11, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> have you got a time machine


 The upgradeitus got to me on my car too. Next thing I'm doing 88 miles an hour with 1.21 giggawats running through my flux capacitor...the rest is history, or maybe the future, or whatever.

Alternatively:

Does OP turn it off and come back to the machine later on....


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Need the make & model of the machine, and hardness of local water supply, to be able to give appropriate advice !


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Silkstonemike said:


> Is that enough to describe the problem?


It's an elegant and complete description of the problem your experiencing....you have described the problem really well. Unfortunately, it will be impossible to help you on this occasion because a few small bits of informaiton are missing. An example of these tiny details are.

Make of machine

Age of machine

New or used

How long has problem been there

has it ever been descaled, how hard is your water, do you use filters

where in the country/world are you

has it been in storage for a while, is it well used or lightly used

Vibration or rotary pump

Any mods to the machine

Does the problem coincide with any event

These small clues help people find a solution to your problem. Think of it like ringing a Garage for new tyres for your car and stating that your existing tyres are worn out, but not telling them anything else....do you think they could help you?


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## Silkstonemike (May 28, 2015)

Hello again,

Thanks for your help so far

I will answer as best I can

Make of machine - Izzo Alex Duetto - tank not plumbed

Age of machine - just over three years

New or used - new to me bought from Bella Barista and checked by you Dave

How long has problem been there - last couple of weeks

has it ever been descaled, how hard is your water, do you use filters - South Yorkshire - really soft water - when I bought my previous Vivi in for service after 5 years I was told there was no scale and it was like new

where in the country/world are you - South Yorkshire UK

has it been in storage for a while, is it well used or lightly used - lightly used - mainly espresso and only texture milk occasionally - steam boiler usually switched off

Vibration or rotary pump - rotary

Any mods to the machine - none apart from smaller feet

Does the problem coincide with any event - I could be flippant and say it coincides with me getting annoyed but there does not seem to be a reason - switching off and leaving for a while can solve the problem, especially if the pump is running and no water coming from the grouphead - even when water does come through it probably fills half an ounce in a shot glass with no crema - the pump sounds different (maybe as if it's struggling and not actually pumping water?)

Tank usually has water in it - on one occasion the empty tank buzzer sounded but that's only happened once - the tank was full at this time!)

Thanks


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## Silkstonemike (May 28, 2015)

Sorry - tank ALWAYS has water in it when this problem occurs!!


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## goodq (Oct 10, 2011)

Silkstonemike said:


> Hello again,
> 
> Thanks for your help so far
> 
> ...


Check the float in the reservoir to see if its stuck. Depending on which duetto you have there is an isolation switch for the alarm under the tray. Try to use that to see if that makes it go away. The duetto does turn off the pump when the alarm goes off as you know so it could be a compounded alarm going off because the float is stuck and a faulty speaker for the alarm


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

If it was checked by me, it must have been the review machine code 3003, on the rating plate under the drip tray...this would make it a Duetto MK4, manufactured 2012.. It was probably the last Duetto I reviewed, have not reviewed one since, I remember it well. Just had a look over the photos of the machine. The low water detection is via a hall effect dector and magnetic float in the tank. these can sometimes give false alarms and often just slightly repositioning the tank helps. On that particular model there is not much chance of the water inlet pipes being pinched due to the design and routing of said pipe.

I am going to give the possible causes of this intermittent problem.

1. Something sometimes blocks the Gicleur (pinhole orifice in the top of the group). Remove top nut and gubbins inside to check for bits.

2. Leak somewhere in sealed brew circuit, causing brew boiler water level to drop, pump perhaps having difficulty to re-prime, or taking a long time to re-prime. e.g. one way valve, or top group valve.

3. Pump faulty

4. Motor Faulty

5. Autofill solenoid sticking open to steam boiler

Some more questions for you


Does this problem ever occur when the machine is cold

Is it more likely to happen if the machine is left on hot and unused for a long period

Does the problem start and then if pump left running, water starts to come out of the group normally after after 5-10s

Do you get a funny growl sound from the pump, then water suddenly flows normally

What does the brew pressure gauge read when this problem occurs (is it around 9 bar or only a few bar).

With the machine on and up to temp, if you hold the tank inlet pipe vertical, does water ever come out, or the meniscus of a small bubble ever appear to rise up the tube (you may have to test this a number of times)

Does the motor and pump sound normal e.g. as in during free flow, or as in backflushing against a blind filter...or sound like none of these 2 things.

Does the steam pressure guage ever rise when this happens even if the steam boiler is off

Is there a small puddle of water under the machine sometimes

Do you get very wet steam


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## Silkstonemike (May 28, 2015)

Dave

Firstly my apologies, I know we have spoken before (or e-mailed) but it was actually 'JE' who checked the machine and it is a type 243, manufactured 2012, number 2516 and I think one of the last Mk IIIs? Tested on 31/5/12 . Sorry if I misled you, I think when we communicate before you were pretty much testing all their machines - but then again I might have been wrong about that too!

I will check everything you suggest when this happens again - I am also taking video of every shot pulled for when it happens again - so I will have 'normal' and 'abnormal' video clips to compare.

Thanks once again for your very kind and helpful response

Mike


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Silkstonemike said:


> Dave
> 
> Firstly my apologies, I know we have spoken before (or e-mailed) but it was actually 'JE' who checked the machine and it is a type 243, manufactured 2012, number 2516 and I think one of the last Mk IIIs? Tested on 31/5/12 . Sorry if I misled you, I think when we communicate before you were pretty much testing all their machines - but then again I might have been wrong about that too!
> 
> ...


The only machines/grinders I "Test" are the ones I review. I did advise (many years ago) on how all machines should be checked prior to them sending one to a customer of theirs and also any specific checks for certain machines (If I tested them). I thought you may have been one of their customers who specifically requested a review machine (instead of a new one)...you'd be surprised how many have. I was, but apparently the view was, if I had reviewed it, every aspect opf it would have been gone through with a fine toothcomb...go figure?

I wait to see your results.


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## emradguy (May 24, 2014)

I had a similar problem once after a descale (though I fixed mine right away - because, well...I can't go a couple weeks without mine working). Anyhow, my issue was crud blocking the mesh filter on the pump side of the inlet solenoid.


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