# Grind retention



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Without standing on your head, repeating a few hail marks and any other bits people go through in order to single dose/achieve next to zero retention on a grinder, my question is which grinder when simply used as it is meant to be (putting beans through and making a cuppa from the result) offers the lowest day to day retention figure?

I am ignoring HG and M3 because they are different beasts. People of ten say that the Mythos has very little retention because the burrs exit chute is well placed, but what about grinds left within.

Anyone taken a Mythos to bits and checked. What do people think then about a low retention easy to use grinder/


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Do you want to discount the squeak grinder as well?


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

It depends how you define "retention".


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Do you want to discount the squeak grinder as well?


I assume this is an EK but I don't know why?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> People of ten say that the Mythos has very little retention because the burrs exit chute is well placed, but what about grinds left within./


People of nine say the E8 has low retention, but I can't offer any figures, it just seems to be so to my simple mind.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Discount EK. I want people not to tell me what they think but what they know.

We are looking for the best all rounder!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Problem with measuring grinds when you clean a grinder out is that you get static and dynamic retention. You'd really need to do the peanut test to assess properly.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Discount EK. I want people not to tell me what they think but what they know.
> 
> We are looking for the best all rounder!


Eh? are they two different things....does all rounder include brewed lol....


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

'People of ten' 'People of nine' and 'peanut test' is this autocorrect or code?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

[video=youtube;aEEe-CBid9Q]


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, lets simplify things a little. I am asking people for what they consider to be, the best out of the box option. The best grinder without the faff and removal of burr carriers every few days etc etc. I appreciate that every grinder (ignoring the usual suspects) retains, but, what I am suggesting is, if you cannot be bothered with all the faff, which grinder offers the best option on retaining the smallest amount of coffee.

As stated, people often say the Mythos has zero retention. Isthmus correct?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'm sure in the Illuminati presentation Colin Harmon did he said it was 3-3.5g retained?


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## bagpuss (Feb 6, 2015)

When I last cleaned my Mazzer Royal, I then weighed 20g, did my regular brush/one more spin/brush and got out 18.4g.

Thereafter, it seems to be pretty much all in, all out. I'll have a measure in the morning though!

I recently swapped my doser for a funnel, and I'm much happier with it.


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## bagpuss (Feb 6, 2015)

And no, I don't know why those photos are rotated. Tried rotating them on my computer, then putting them in, and they still end up like this!


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## mokapoka (Jun 20, 2011)

Bagpuss, if you don't mind me asking, where you get the funnel?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> [video=youtube;aEEe-CBid9Q]


Hmm, doesn't really tell you very much the way he did things?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, in short, no one really has a clue then!


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

bagpuss said:


> And no, I don't know why those photos are rotated. Tried rotating them on my computer, then putting them in, and they still end up like this!


Well there you go - Downloaded to my Mac - edited & then uploaded to the post.

Start a new thread if its a problem you want to discuss. Leave this one clear & on track for DFK.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> So, in short, no one really has a clue then!


Well to have a good idea, someone would have need to have tested a lot of grinders correctly. If it's in terms of what "should" have the lowest retention based on design.....I would guess something like the Versalab or HG1 would be right up there near the top of the list..


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Well to have a good idea, someone would have need to have tested a lot of grinders correctly. If it's in terms of what "should" have the lowest retention based on design.....I would guess something like the Versalab or HG1 would be right up there near the top of the list..


Nope, they are on the banned list along with the EK. I am looking for an every day grinder that is not a specialist grinder that offers little retention. Everyone says the K10 was a monster, the big Mazzers retain.....fine......which ones that are not on the banned list do not retain.

I am lazy! I do not want to take the burrs out every couple of weeks. I want to know that the coffee I am drinking consists of reasonably fresh grinds.........


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Aren't you just asking us to qualify that the mythos is the grinder there is ?

I don't get what an everyday grinder is ?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

mokapoka said:


> Bagpuss, if you don't mind me asking, where you get the funnel?


Search for "octopus balls funnel" on aliexpress. (serioisly)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Nope, they are on the banned list along with the EK. I am looking for an every day grinder that is not a specialist grinder that offers little retention. Everyone says the K10 was a monster, the big Mazzers retain.....fine......which ones that are not on the banned list do not retain.
> 
> I am lazy! I do not want to take the burrs out every couple of weeks. I want to know that the coffee I am drinking consists of reasonably fresh grinds.........


Purge and be happy


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Dfk, you have been here long enough to know about just about every grinder that has any deal of respect. You have already discounted several grinders with low to zero retention for one reason of another, in the class of grinders you buy I don't think you are going to find that someone has been using some magical grinder with no retention that no one knows about.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Gents, this is a genuine question. I am not after having my brow massaged because like many, I have a Mythos. I want to see which grinder is suitable to match my needs. It might be that I have to form my own routine. I am happy to purge a bit and I do. That poses a question though, which is how do we know how accurate purging is and unless you do that test the K30 bloke does on YouTube (and does that test really tell us anything?) in the pursuit of getting fresh coffee without stales into your pf. Or do you just give up and buy one of the list of 3 or 4?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I would have thought the answer is at the end of your post.

Retention is always a consideration for anyone here who owns a grinder, and without mods we already know of the very expensive few that exist.

To add to your excluded list:

ZR-71

Tidaka CB1

Terranova grinder (does it have a name?)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dylan said:


> I would have thought the answer is at the end of your post.
> 
> Retention is always a consideration for anyone here who owns a grinder, and without mods we already know of the very expensive few that exist.
> 
> ...


Terra nova is called " the don "


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Too many funny rules for me....As far as I am concerned the Versalab is a stock grinder which has very little retention, as is the HG1. To have them on a banned list seems frankly ridiculous to me. So I'm out.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Just so gale dose a royal, less retention than your mythos!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Hmmmm everyday grinder that is not a specialist single dosed Mazzer mini


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Rr55od


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Too many funny rules for me....As far as I am concerned the Versalab is a stock grinder which has very little retention, as is the HG1. To have them on a banned list seems frankly ridiculous to me. So I'm out.


Don't you see Dave they are all out except the mythos


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Too many funny rules for me....As far as I am concerned the Versalab is a stock grinder which has very little retention, as is the HG1. To have them on a banned list seems frankly ridiculous to me. So I'm out.


It is easy to understand. They are all expensive grinders, beyond the reach of many and are built with single dosing and zero retention in mind. I am looking for an 'amateur' grinder by comparison that does a good all round job but handles retention well. It may well be aMythos and it may well be something else.

So, is there a grinder out there which is gordon retention but not on the 'banned' list that perhaps is a best kept secret


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

I have a krupps 75.

Zero retention. Nada, nish, zilch. What goes in comes out


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Let's ban all other grinders apart from a Myhtos

this week best grinder is ....

mythos

Can we close the thread now


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

K30 is really low dynamic retention


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Let's ban all other grinders apart from a Myhtos
> 
> this week best grinder is ....
> 
> ...


Boots, you are going to have to think your strategy through. Plenty of people have Mythos grinders on here and some even have the Myhtos......this is about the next grinder for the stable, not the last so please, either contribute or but out!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Ceado E8 retention is just about 0.2g consistently when single dosing. As in I put 18.3g in and get 18.1g out +/0.05g.

So when the gaps under the burrs and on top of the vanes has been filled in with compacted coffee that's how much is left in the burrs after sweeping the exit chute. When the burr chamber is cleaned out completely and the first dose goes through the burrs I think you lose something like 0.6g but don't completely trust my memory on that one.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rob1 said:


> Ceado E8 retention is just about 0.2g consistently when single dosing. As in I put 18.3g in and get 18.1g out +/0.05g.
> 
> So when the gaps under the burrs and on top of the vanes has been filled in with compacted coffee that's how much is left in the burrs after sweeping the exit chute. When the burr chamber is cleaned out completely and the first dose goes through the burrs I think you lose something like 0.6g but don't completely trust my memory on that one.


Is the E8 an older model? I do not know that one but plenty of people think highly of Ceado's product


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> K30 is really low dynamic retention


So, does that Youtube K30 test really test anything? Presumably it ignores anything stuck inside and just shows the flow path?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Yeah, I think it's been around for a while. Still available from some vendors. Big 83mm burrs. Without sweeping the exit chute I'm consistently about 1.5g short, but there's no finger guard in the way and I just use a basic group head brush (dry ofc).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Bodum... That's an everyday grinder . It's consistent too . It's crap - but consistently crap. I think we should have a limit to best grinder threads . Twice a year only .....


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

This isnt a best grinder thread.

It's a thread about which grinder has the least retention day to day when used for its intended purpose.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> This isnt a best grinder thread.
> 
> It's a thread about which grinder has the least retention day to day when used for its intended purpose.


Isn't it ?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

you do tend to skim read


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This thread, as JR points out, is to try and find a hidden gem. A grinder that perhaps we all think we know. It is about fining something usable and available that has LOW grind retention. This is not for my benefit, but for anyone looking for such a beast.

Just for you Bootsy, my grinder journey is going back over and I am not going to buy an more top end new grinders, instead look and see what is out there and available. I know a bit about some grinders but want to learn about others. Come on that journey with me, or sit and snipe......your choice


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Long may your epic grinder journey continue ....


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I'm sure in the Illuminati presentation Colin Harmon did he said it was 3-3.5g retained?


That's the Mythos One isnt it, not the old Mythos?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> So, does that Youtube K30 test really test anything? Presumably it ignores anything stuck inside and just shows the flow path?


Yes, some might get stuck under the burr carrier etc but that doesn't matter because it doesn't end up mixing in with your fresh grinds



Jumbo Ratty said:


> This isnt a best grinder thread.
> 
> It's a thread about which grinder has the least retention day to day when used for its intended purpose.


People are using commercial grinders at home which isn't really their intended purpose. Retention isn't an issue in cafes because the coffee is constantly moving through and doesn't have a chance to get stale


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> It is easy to understand. They are all expensive grinders, beyond the reach of many and are built with single dosing and zero retention in mind. I am looking for an 'amateur' grinder by comparison that does a good all round job but handles retention well. It may well be aMythos and it may well be something else.


Should we put some specific numbers on the budget for an 'everyday' grinder?

I'm sure most people wouldn't consider a Mythos an 'everyday'/'amateur' grinder?

Anyway isn't an HG1 cheaper than a Mythos?

Seems the question is "which grinder, that hasn't been designed to have low retention, has low retention?"


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jonc said:


> Should we put some specific numbers on the budget for an 'everyday' grinder? YOU CAN IF YOU WANT
> 
> I'm sure most people wouldn't consider a Mythos an 'everyday'/'amateur' grinder? WHY NOT? I HAVE BOUGHT THEM FOR £300
> 
> ...


That is exactly the question I have been asking, and here we are on page 5!I am just looking for suggestions for second hand grinders that I might not have considered,but it seems there are not any!

Shame but there you go.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Why do you want a low retention grinder that's not designed to be one?

That's making your life unnecessarily complicated.

Just buy a low retention grinder and save us and yourself some grief.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Yes, some might get stuck under the burr carrier etc but that doesn't matter because it doesn't end up mixing in with your fresh grinds


Thats a good point and adds validity to the test. Would a few people with different grinders be up for an unscientific test of this nature?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jonc said:


> Why do you want a low retention grinder that's not designed to be one?
> 
> That's making your life unnecessarily complicated.
> 
> Just buy a low retention grinder and save us and yourself some grief.


You are a cheeky pup jonc. Are you saying that I have no right to ask questions or make points on this forum without seeking your and Boots approval first. For a mod, you are pretty thick and have not learnt that as a mod you should not be commenting on everything going on. Of course, you could hand in your mods badge and just go back to being plain old you.

Anyway, despite your attempt at cutting edge humour, I will carry on adding my thoughts to this forum, and since you are going to be the only person on my ignore list, I do not care what you say as I will not see it.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> Thats a good point and adds validity to the test. Would a few people with different grinders be up for an unscientific test of this nature?


Oh yeah this sounds like it would be a right laugh.

The unscientific nature of it really appeals to me and my sense of anarchy.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> For a mod, you are pretty thick


There wasn't an IQ test.

Thankfully!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jonc said:


> There wasn't an IQ test.
> 
> Thankfully!


It seems because of your status as a mod, I cannot put you on my ignore list. Thats fine, but let me make it clear you are not welcome on any threads I start. Childish perhaps but it works for me


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Guyssssss come on


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> It seems because of your status as a mod, I cannot put you on my ignore list. Thats fine, but let me make it clear you are not welcome on any threads I start. Childish perhaps but it works for me


Ok I'll steer clear.

Great shame...

Can I still read them - or am I banned from that too?

If so, can I ask someone to send me a weekly digest of the hottest topics you're raising please?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Life is too short for this ...please kiss and make up


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> Life is too short for this ...please kiss and make up


I'm only playing.

Anyway, I'm not welcome here. I'm off.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

For transparency - several posts were moderated by me

I don't want to see any members taking pot shots at each other - mods or not - it will not be tolerated


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

The major in single dosing mode, I can use less than 3 grams to purge it . I am more than happy to do this . So I would say the retention for this grinder is Low.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> The major in single dosing mode, I can use less than 3 grams to purge it . I am more than happy to do this . So I would say the retention for this grinder is Low.


Can you explain the routine required in detail, to achieve this with single dosing please


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> So, does that Youtube K30 test really test anything? Presumably it ignores anything stuck inside and just shows the flow path?


Presumably the stuck inside stuff , Is just that

.. I know it doesn't feel terribly scientific as a test . But it is something that most people could do as a ball park process ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Re what other grinders are out there. Between you and tother Dave , you must have had nearly everything by now ?

Retention , doesn't seem to a major concern for most of the older school grinder manufacturers , and alot or grinders are just based on very old design and tech ( Burrs spin , exit shute )

Grinders that are designed to have low retention ( Versalab , HG1 , etc ) have fallen outside your definition of every day grinder .....

So where does that leave us/you....

Getting a grinder that your ok with and has a purge amount of a comfortable qty ?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Re what other grinders are out there. Between you and tother Dave , you must have had nearly everything by now ?
> 
> Retention , doesn't seem to a major concern for most of the older school grinder manufacturers , and alot or grinders are just based on very old design and tech ( Burrs spin , exit shute )
> 
> ...


All valid points, but unless you have a look at what is available from time to time, then you might well miss a trick. OK, I change my grinders on a regular basis, but from that experience, some the advancements made in the grinder market with new NS, Compak and Ceado models....whilst lots have admirable qualities they all seem to ignore retention. Yes, you could say that they are aimed at the commercial market, but are they? there are a lotto the above grinders in domestic situations.

That means you have to turn your attentions towards the HG, Versalab, EK and R120 market if retention is your constraint. But, each has its own problems if we are being truthful, and apart from the HG, are all blinking expensive.

My quest for the moment, is to try and find a second hand grinder that ticks all the prospective boxes I want. I have a feeling, that I am going tend up with a Royal with a few mods. But, knowing there to be lots of other grinders out there, I just thought I would ask the forum their view.

Retention does not really bother me as long as it is reasonable. I will not suffer the K10 type figures again so, as repeated from before, all Wondered was if there was an available grinder that has reasonable retention straight out of the box and did not cost a arm and a leg and can preferably be sourced second hand


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> So, does that Youtube K30 test really test anything? Presumably it ignores anything stuck inside and just shows the flow path?


In my eyes, that test proves exactly nothing.

He grinds the Grindz until he sees the first flakes of white in a bed of stale coffee. This is not the point where stale coffee has ceased to come through, but the point where the fresh Grindz have first started to mix with the stale grounds.

A better test would be to throw away the 0.1second pulse each time, and when the pulse is all (or 90+%) Grindz, you then know you have fresh coffee.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dylan said:


> In my eyes, that test proves exactly nothing.
> 
> He grinds the Grindz until he sees the first flakes of white in a bed of stale coffee. This is not the point where stale coffee has ceased to come through, but the point where the fresh Grindz have first started to mix with the stale grounds.
> 
> A better test would be to throw away the 0.1second pulse each time, and when the pulse is all (or 90+%) Grindz, you then know you have fresh coffee.


Sounds about right, but this test was a K30 owner telling the world how great his machine is!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Can you explain the routine required in detail, to achieve this with single dosing please


After the grinder has been at rest , say overnight . I weigh my beans currently 18grams I then take a few of the said bean (approx 3 grams) grind these and then clean the doses and the chute , rerun the grinder re brush the chute .

Take the portfilter and basket Grind the 18grams directly into basket sweep when finished grinding .

checking the weight which should be is normally as near to what I put in . (Currently not to bothered by exact output and getting the last few bits as I am more concerned about distribution at this stage)

Distribute by tapping the front and sides and if particular bad a small nutation with no pressure (only weight of the tamper ) when dead flat only then tamper making sure everything is level.

after all this I just let the L1 to do its magic .

To be honest I have found the better quality of beans I use the better it tastes, I am not sure but I think there is direct connection , I'm quite happy to hear if others have discovered this ;-)


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Thats a good point and adds validity to the test. Would a few people with different grinders be up for an unscientific test of this nature?


This is true of something like the Super Jolly too. If you clean the machine out completely, burrs removed, everything vacuumed/swept etc. the first time you grind there will be terrible retention as all the nooks and crannys fill up. However, after this, on a day to day basis I see 0g retention. I have the basic Dave approved clean sweep mod (bit of cereal packet on the vanes), nothing else. Although I do single dose, so this probably doesn't answer your original question.

However, just to throw in my 2p, I would sacrifice retention/a bit of purging for a the simplicity of OD. Thwacking like mad to ensure nothing is left in the doser is a bit time consuming.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I too am seeking a low retention 'off the shelf' grinder. I'm not at all sure it exists - yet! I live in hope this thread may prove me wrong. I'll suggest one more for the 'banned' list. The 'megalith'. Only one or two produced and would be stupid expensive if they ever were put into production.


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## bagpuss (Feb 6, 2015)

Dylan said:


> Search for "octopus balls funnel" on aliexpress. (serioisly)


I'm afraid that this is not nearly as good an answer as "search for octopus balls", but I bought it on US eBay:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HOT-SALE-NEW-Mazzer-Super-Jolly-Doserless-Funnel-/321798106871?

I did a small amount of adjustment to it, to make the chute a better fit, but essentially it's pretty good.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nice find at a decent price


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> , all Wondered was if there was an available grinder that has reasonable retention straight out of the box and did not cost a arm and a leg and can preferably be sourced second hand


OK, what about the Brasilia MC (which can only be sourced 2nd hand)? Retention is









I then put through grindz 2g at a time (to simulate new coffee) and looked at what came out:









As you can see the 2nd and 3rd lots have virtually none of the (old) coffee in them.

For the hopper test, I interrupted the grinder whilst grinding from the hopper, removed the hopper with the remaining beans, hoovered out the bean fragments in the top grabbing/breaking part of the burrs (on the basis that these, although broken up a bit, should not stale much quicker than intact beans):









The chute was left full again. This time, the first 2g of grindz pushed out 5g of a mixture of coffee and grind, the second 2g pushed out 2g of mainly grindz (working from the right this time).









Finally, the grinder in it's natural habitat:









(disclaimer: I should probably mention that, although not in a hurry to sell, I do have two of these at the moment ...)


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