# Another look at this espresso business



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

After an expensive summer I'm finally in a position I can looking into getting a espresso machine again.

I bought a Gaggia Classic at the start of the year but sold it since I was not happy with the performance with milk drinks nor the fact the constant switching between brewed and espresso grind was a pain.

I'm expecting to receive my Hausgrind in the next month, so now I can have a dedicated grinder for espresso and brewed.

My two choices are a Expobar Brewtus Dual Boiler or a Nuova Simonelli Oscar. The Oscar is half the price but I would have to deal with the cooling flush purge which seems to be a little too much like guess work to me. I would prefer a dual boiler but again this is twice the price.

Does anyone have any thoughts on these two machines and how they compare?

Thanks


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ahirsty said:


> My two choices are a Expobar Brewtus Dual Boiler or a Nuova Simonelli Oscar. The Oscar is half the price but I would have to deal with the cooling flush purge which seems to be a little too much like guess work to me. I would prefer a dual boiler but again this is twice the price.
> 
> Does anyone have any thoughts on these two machines and how they compare?
> 
> Thanks


One is much better than the other


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The Expobar is way more expensive for a reason, and it well loved. I would have question if a Hausgrind was really good enough for an Expo DB, or even really as an everyday espresso grinder.

The HX flush is no real problem, its flushing out the hot water (maybe 10-15secs) so long as you expel what's in the HX pipe then you have the right temperature.

If I had the budget I would go for the Expo, without hesitation, its about a million times better looking as well.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I've had both, the Oscar did a job and is a great wee machine but if you can afford the DB go for that. You won't regret it.


----------



## PAW (Jun 3, 2014)

I'm currently working my way through the first week of Oscar ownership! I love it but I think it's been too hot weather wise to test it properly. It is a lowly machine though and having a big drip tray and easy cleaning is helping me through the process


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Plus if you get the Oscar you'll always be thinking 'what if'


----------



## PAW (Jun 3, 2014)

I meant lovely machine sorry.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

The Hausgrind does a much better job of grinding for espresso than any of it's electrically powered cousins that share the same burr set, but a decent electric grinder ( Mazzer SJ upwards) will do a much better job of grinding, yes the Brewtus is a better machine but I would absolutely ignore DaveC's machine snobbery attitude that any machine with a brand new price of under £1k is shit.

If you are going to buy a good machine you *need* a good grinder to do the machine justice, if you don't mind the looks of the Oscar why not also take a look at the Sage 920XL dual boiler machine too, it comes in brushed stainless, black and red, similar colours to the Oscar but is 90% metal in the casing.

Any dual boiler PID machine in terms of accurately gauging the temperature is going to stomp all over the Oscar. The Oscar does have pretty powerful steam if you are going to use it for milk drinks, the Expobar also has decent steam power, the Sage is a little slower in steaming than the other two but due to it's 3 hole steam tip ridiculously easy to get perfectly textured milk, there are many threads talking about the Brewtus and the Sage on the forum so do a quick search, this isn't really the place to start another Top Trumps thread.

But always factor in the grinder.


----------



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

My plan was to use my Vario for espresso and the Hausgrind for brewed. Would this be a good match for the Brewtus?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ahirsty said:


> My plan was to use my Vario for espresso and the Hausgrind for brewed. Would this be a good match for the Brewtus?


Opinions will vary on the vario for espresso . It's a marmite grinder ....

Which burrs does it have currently ?

Glenn and I think aaron have had them paired with a duetto and a l1 and enjoy their espresso , they could give you some real life owner experience .

As with all things there are " better grinder in the cup " for more money. All subjective and I've not used the vario extensively .

Hausgrind will do you proud for your brewed , it's my work and travel brew grinder .


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

ahirsty said:


> My plan was to use my Vario for espresso and the Hausgrind for brewed. Would this be a good match for the Brewtus?


Without once again getting into the vario hater vs vario lovers debate it will work with a Brewtus, but there are far better options out there, depending on the age and condition of your Vario you may be able to sell it and use the proceeds to buy something like a used Mazzer SJ or another ex commercial grinder of CoffeeChap which would make a huge leap in the quality of your coffee. The Hausgrind is great for brewed and I also use mine as a guest espresso grinder for trying out something I may have bought for brewed as espresso or when the Mythos hopper has beans in and I fancy trying something else out.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> It's a marmite grinder ...


Sounds like a good pairing with a fudge funnel. Sorry, I'll get my coat.


----------



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

Thanks for all your responses. After doing even more research I have started thinking outside the box! I noticed the Sage Barista Express is around the same price as the Oscar. Has anyone used one of these? It solves my grinder issue however its pointless if it cant make a decent espresso.

Also is there such a place you can rent any of these machines? It would sure be nice to see what's its like to live with one before taking the plunge.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Glenn and funinacup have experienced these when training with people one to one . Might be worth asking their opinions


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Did slas not order one then send it back?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you buy it from Lakeland, they have the best guarantee in the market that allies you to return it at any point, no questions asked. I stood behind a woman who returned a used skillet for a cash refund.....amazing!


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Isn't the Barista Express a super automatic (bean to cup)? Can it really make good coffee? I am guessing the grinder is not very good and might suffer from the same reliabilities issues that most supper automatics are famous for. That said I would really love to test one of the top of the lines Jura for our office if they can make something decent with one press of the button.


----------



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

Its more of a espresso machine with a inbuilt grinder. You still need to dose and tamp yourself. I'm finding it hard to find reviews of the Barista Express apart from the SCG one.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

ahirsty said:


> Its more of a espresso machine with a inbuilt grinder. You still need to dose and tamp yourself. I'm finding it hard to find reviews of the Barista Express apart from the SCG one.


Have a look over on coffeesnobs, they've been around in Australia and New Zealand longer so you should find some info there.


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

ahirsty said:


> Its more of a espresso machine with a inbuilt grinder. You still need to dose and tamp yourself. I'm finding it hard to find reviews of the Barista Express apart from the SCG one.


Hmmm, manual dosing and tamping and also an external steam wand. I am thinking that these takes away all the advantages of super automatics: no dose and tamping and automatic creation of milk drinks.

And another thought: the grinder is the most important part of the puzzle after fresh coffee. Surely an integrated grinder would be very bad, much worse than even a mignon or vario.


----------



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

charris said:


> Hmmm, manual dosing and tamping and also an external steam wand. I am thinking that these takes away all the advantages of super automatics: no dose and tamping and automatic creation of milk drinks.
> 
> And another thought: the grinder is the most important part of the puzzle after fresh coffee. Surely an integrated grinder would be very bad, much worse than even a mignon or vario.


I suppose that's the main question, all the features seem great, I like the fact it has a PID. I would like to see how the grind holds up to a vario or even a super jolly.


----------



## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

The built in grinder is no match for a decent external grinder, eg Super Jolly etc, but for the price point it is a good bit of kit!

As for super automatics having advantages, that depends on what you're looking for. Bean to Cup machines have limited dose ranges and they're usually pretty small. Although they automatically create milk drinks, they're generally crap quality.


----------



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

funinacup said:


> The built in grinder is no match for a decent external grinder, eg Super Jolly etc, but for the price point it is a good bit of kit!
> 
> As for super automatics having advantages, that depends on what you're looking for. Bean to Cup machines have limited dose ranges and they're usually pretty small. Although they automatically create milk drinks, they're generally crap quality.


It seems a good price even without the grinder. Is there anything else in the £500 price range (new) with PID, volumetric control, instant steam?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Go and see one. John Lewis normally have them nd have regular demonstrations. I always think that the number of owners on a forum give an indication


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Or just buy the Sage DB for £945 from the link DFK posted in the deals forum, it's a far better machine and does use standard 58mm baskets tampers etc.


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I'll say this...

I HAD a HX machine at least as good if not better than an oscar, and the Expobar is a million miles better, in usability, consistency, repeatability and convenience. I'd never go back


----------



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

Ok one last round of questions before I make a decision. I have got my short-list down to either a Expobar Brewtus Dual Boiler or the Sage Dual boiler.

After reading some reviews it seems the Sage can make coffee just as good as the brewtus but has a few nice features which improves usability.

Putting subjective factors aside what cons are there against the Sage? My only worry is how well it will hold its value and the ease of getting spares/repairs in the future.

Thanks again for your input.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you buyit from Littlewoods, the price I think is £1049 which is prety good anyway, plus it is £75 to extend the warranty to 4 years. After 4 years, I think most things in our consumer led society are throw away, except of course, proper spresso machines made of steel etc........cue Charlie and Gary!


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

ahirsty said:


> Putting subjective factors aside what cons are there against the Sage? My only worry is how well it will hold its value and the ease of getting spares/repairs in the future.


That's about it. Needs a bit of know how to get the mouthfeel of the E61.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Buy a Sage from John Lewis for an extra £49 you can extend the warranty to 5 years and if it does go wrong in those 5 years John Lewis have an excellent reputation for customer service. Parts ARE easily available via coffeclassicdirect who are Sage's appointed service agents, it was done this way as unlike Breville (the parent company not the UK makers of toasters and kettles) in Australia, New Zealand and the USA, Sage do not have a network of service centres in the UK.

As far as I can see there should be no more long term worries about reliability than about any Italian or Spanish made machine, residual values of the BES900XL, which was the 1st version, in the Antipodes and USA are apparently ok, don't get caught in the trap of trying to compare the price in $US or $AU as you're buying one in pounds sterling and in any case the RRP in the USA is $2,499 and a Expobar DB or any European made DB machine are significantly more expensive in either country.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

All good points , it's only my gut telling me this, but I don't think anyone's tried to sell one yet ( good sign then )

but I don't think a sage will command the resale value of e61 groups like the brewtus etc.

This may not be important to a buyer if it's this machine for life .....


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> All good points , it's only my gut telling me this, but I don't think anyone's tried to sell one yet ( good sign then )
> 
> but I don't think a sage will command the resale value of e61 groups like the brewtus etc.
> 
> This may not be important to a buyer if it's this machine for life .....


Why Martin as many many machines do no use an E61 group? You say this as though the E61, a fifty + year old design is the pinnacle of group designs to electrically heat a group and PID control the temperature will give a far more accurate result than using hot water to fulfil the same function, so why shouldn't a machine that costs the same as a Brewtus retain it's value on the used market. I know from having had family check this out that the residual prices on the previous Breville model the 900XL seem to be pretty buoyant and get snapped up pretty quickly, you may as well cast doubt on the resale values of a Vesuvius, as that too is a new and unproven machine from a new manufacturer. Until such time as either machine becomes frequently available on the used market it will be hard to say, but I would suggest that based on the used price a Brewtus seems to sell for of around £800, anyone who has paid £1200 for a Sage will be wanting around that same figure.


----------



## ahirsty (Jan 9, 2014)

Very tricky decision! This might not be a fair question Charlie but if someone took away your Sage and replaced it with £1200 what would you buy?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Charliej said:


> Why Martin as many many machines do no use an E61 group? You say this as though the E61, a fifty + year old design is the pinnacle of group designs to electrically heat a group and PID control the temperature will give a far more accurate result than using hot water to fulfil the same function, so why shouldn't a machine that costs the same as a Brewtus retain it's value on the used market. I know from having had family check this out that the residual prices on the previous Breville model the 900XL seem to be pretty buoyant and get snapped up pretty quickly, you may as well cast doubt on the resale values of a Vesuvius, as that too is a new and unproven machine from a new manufacturer. Until such time as either machine becomes frequently available on the used market it will be hard to say, but I would suggest that based on the used price a Brewtus seems to sell for of around £800, anyone who has paid £1200 for a Sage will be wanting around that same figure.


Wowsers said it was a gut feeling that's all .

People like shiny things ( me too ) , shiny things hold value better .

Plus doesn't new retail price include the white gloves , which you can't resell


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

ahirsty said:


> Very tricky decision! This might not be a fair question Charlie but if someone took away your Sage and replaced it with £1200 what would you buy?


As I recently said in another thread it would be another Sage or if I had the extra cash I'd put it towards a Vesuvius, I would miss all the extra functionality and flexibility of the Sage, but I would buy the black version of the Sage









If a company is prepared to offer a manufacturer backed 2 year warranty rather than leaving it all down to the retailer to warranty an item it says to me that they are prepared to stand by their product and it's reliability.



Mrboots2u said:


> Wowsers said it was a gut feeling that's all .
> 
> People like shiny things ( me too ) , shiny things hold value better .
> 
> Plus doesn't new retail price include the white gloves , which you can't resell


The white gloves thing is shite anyway, and marketed as a freebie the way some electrical retailers will sometimes offer "free installation" for your new TV, computer, home cinema system etc. So the price is 1200 units of currency (despite advertised RRP), as it seems to be in markets where this "service" isn't included.


----------



## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

Charliej said:


> Or just buy the Sage DB for £945 from the link DFK posted in the deals forum, it's a far better machine and does use standard 58mm baskets tampers etc.


Sage DB for £945?!?! Where, where???


----------



## Sean (Jun 20, 2014)

Ah, dang! Just found it, shame.


----------

