# Grind:Weight Ratio



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I use a timed grinder. When I change beans I adjust the timer so that it's throwing as close as I can get to 16g, as I find that this weight works well for me.

I than adjust the grind to get the rate of flow as I want it - around 25 seconds.

But, of course, if that grind adjustment is any more than minimal, the weight dispensed in the set time changes.

Should I then go back to re-set the timer, and repeat the grind adjustment if necessary?

I suppose the basic question that I'm asking is : How critical is the weight of coffee used? Does a gram or so either side of 15G make much difference, provided the grind is right?


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

I reckon as little as 0.5g can make a difference in taste. I tend to dose a little over, and use a teaspoon and scales to get back down to the dose I want whilst I'm getting the grind. When the grind is okay, I'll start adjusting the timer more precisely.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Yes a gram will have a major impact

0.1 or 0.2 of a gram may not be immediately noticeable but as Roland says, 0.5 under or overdosed can change the taste and texture of the espresso enough to notice by taste and in many cases by look as well


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

This is why I stopped using the timer on my grinder as it's underneath. I quickly got fed up with putting it on it's side everytime I changed the grind. Much easier to weigh the beans first or after.

I take it you don't dose level with the top of the basket then? This is where it all gets a bit cloudy for me. I always dose just above and level off meaning some grinds will be lost and naturually the amount changes depending on how fine I am grinding. So I'm grinding finer and ending up with less grinds as a result. Going to a bigger basket would mean I have to up dose or not level off. Very confusing.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I get a bit confused as well.

If I grind 16g into my double E-61 basket, it leaves a little mound above the height of the basket. Using either NSEW or Stockfleth's it is then possible to groom the dose, filling in the gaps around the edges, without any (or with minimal) spillage. Tamping this reduces the puck to below the height of the basket, and leaves some headroom when placed in the head. Although adjusting the grind will slightly alter the weight dispensed, this seems to be the closest to uniformity between shots that I can achieve.

What I don't understand is the technique that I've seen used by world-class baristas in countless videos, where they appear flap the doser lever what seems to be a random number of times, then level out the resulting dose before tamping. My thoughts are that it must be extremely difficult to maintain a constant weight by this technique - or are these guys just so experienced that they have acquired an instinctive ability to dose uniformly this way?


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I have found with the big mazzer that by flapping away, I break up any clumps as I go and watch the amount of coffee going into the PF until I have a slight mound and stop dosing. Then level NSEW discarding any excess ( I know, a profligate waste of coffee) before tamping and my dose weight is consistently 15g or very close. The grind consistency is excellent on the Mazzer and I rarely need to adjust the grinder which must help with the dose weight.


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

I'll seek an expert opinion from the like of Glenn on the answer to how champs do it







Often I'll dose near the rim of the basket. If I do, once I've got my grind set, a dose slightly piled, followed by an NSEW and a swipe of any remaining grinds seems to get me accurately within about 0.2g of desired. The key here seems to be consistency. If the final swipe is with a lightly bowed finger, it needs to be equally bowed each time.

At home I use the WDT - a.k.a. A cut off yoghut pot and paperclip. This means that the dose is already very heaped in the middle, without having to dose much more than I want and having to waste grounds.

On a tangent, I weigh filter/brewed coffee beans prior to grind. With the coarse grind and a steep drop into my dualit's tray, this seems to be accurate within 0.1g. For espresso, I fill the hopper and adjust the timer as needed. This is because the finer grind and less steep chute seem to mean a greater potential discrepancy if grinding the entire hopper contents.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I basically dose 15g exactly into my PF with a cut out Puly Cafe container (which is very rigid and exactly 58mm) I only started doing this as my wife is incredibly moany about loose grinds on the work surface. I then added the WDT paperclip trick as well just to break up any clumps (although I don't get many) then I Stockfleth style distribution with a pallet knife. Depending on the grind and bean I usually end up with between 14.6 - 14.9g in the basket. I don't usually have to adjust my grind by more than 2-3mm either way on change of bean and even less as they age. I know I'm splitting hairs but it is a grey area.

At the moment I'm struggling to understand another issue. I can tweak the grind to pull 60ml in near enough exactly 25 seconds with no channels etc. and a perfect puck but (depending on the bean) blonding appears at around 19-21 seconds which is when I stop the shot for the best taste. Hence I've be drinking 45-50ml shots. Not a huge problem but the only way I can think of getting a full cup is to use my bigger basket and up dose again. What do you think?


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

I tend to way the beans before I drop them into the grinder hopper. I dose the PF and at the 3/4 volume stage I use NSEW to level before dispensing the rest of the coffee.

I have wait until the espresso being brewed is just about to go thin and watery rather than blond. Is this right?


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah that's what I meant by blonding (thin an watery) I'm just trying to use the lingo









I tweaked for a slightly finer grind earlier and managed to get 60ml in 30 seconds with no blonding. Tasted different. Not bad different just darker with a more intense flavour. Yum.


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

For shot size & time, I think it's very dependent on the coffee. Some coffees work nicely at a 25 - 30 second pull - in contrast the Union Revelation blend we use at work is definitely best at about 20 seconds - longer pulls are too bitter.

As to shot ratio, I usually favour a fairly short shot - about a 30g (about 40ml I guess?) weight of total shot from 17g coffee would be typical. I use blonding as my main criteria. By that I mean, I usual stop the shot when the streams of coffee stop having any dark elements and begin to pull inwards (towards each other) slightly. Spotting this with more lightly roasted bean is tough, as the colour isn't as dark to begin with as more heavily roasted coffees. Some coffees (particularly those with low acidity but more roast-yness) I'll continue for a half-second to second after blonding - others (particularly subtler and more lightly roasted coffees) I'll aim to stop immediately at blonding.

If you haven't tried it, as a quick home experiment (I was briefly a science teacher you know







) - try having a few espresso cups ready and catching different parts of the shot in each - for example, four cups, and catch anything from the first 8 seconds in one, then swap in another to catch 9-16s, and another for 16-24s, and another for 24-36s. It's definitely an interesting result







it helped me a lot with understanding how I could alter coffee flavour using different pulls. I keep meaning to get hold of more espresso cups and expand the experiment.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for the advice Roland. One of the most informative things I've read on this subject in a while. It's good to know not every bean has to fall into the 25 second mk. When dialing in do you still aim for 25s for 60ml then decide when to cut the shot from there? i.e. is that the best starting point? I've been doing that and like you just cutting the shot as soon as the flow starts to fluctuate and turn watery, which can be anywhere in the 20-30 second range.

I'm definitely going to give the four cups a go. I should imagine the last one is foul.


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

I'm with you on the longer pour - ristretto?


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

One man's espresso is another man's ristretto...









As to a starting point, I'd just say choose something that works for you, then pull a shot, and use taste to guide you from there. I try to stick to changing one variable at a time - usually dose first. I don't over worry grind at that point - just stopping whenever it blonds. I narrow down roughly which dose I like most, then start adjusting grind to get the blonding/finish point in the kind of time I want. If you don't mind measuring your dose, time, shot mass, etc. for each shot you pull, you then try and compare the taste to your last one, compare the variables and decide where you want to go from there with your next shot.


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