# Recommend Bean to Cup (please don't be cross)



## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

I recently purchased a Gaggia Classic and Iberital grinder. I have spent hours trying to get the machine setup and happy. I have now lost all interest and patience and just as importantly so has the Mrs.

The Classic is on it's way back to Amazon - the grinder has a button fault anyway so hoping that the retailer will accept it back for a refund.

I got lots of support from Happy Donkey and guidance but have never been able to get something decent. A mixture of grinds in the cup and the basket sticking to the group head were among some of the frustrations.

I now want a machine we can both push a button and it will make a fresh latte/cappuccino in the morning use which is a step up from the nespresso type pods.

I am concerned about the delonghi reliability but the cost of the Jura is putting me off purchasing anything at all.

Any recommendations on make/model and best place to buy?

I'd consider a refurbished unit as long as it came with a warranty.

Please don't try to tempt me back to the purist route as we just want something simple







I appreciate the lack of control and flavour will not be there. But I have two young kids who would rather have my time than a espresso machine.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Yimpster

That's a classic experience and the reason some specials pop up on Amazon as box returns. Usually sorted out by a spot of home barista training (or even class based)

What is your budget for a bean to cup setup?


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

What is your budget?


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## AliC (Jan 9, 2014)

Please please don't give up. For the money of a b2c machine you can get very respectable machine and grinder second hand.

Once you start making Mrs a decent cappuccino and babycino and hot chocolates with latte art poured on for the youngest you will become a superhero (I'm sure you already are).

Like sdo much in life, it's all so much easier with the right kit.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

What are peoples views on the Heston Blumenthal sage? I know the dual boiler was well received but the bean to cup looks good and wonder if anyone has had a play? I know it doesn't fit the brief of a simple button press but wonder if it may be suitable? As it seems to sit half way between bean to cup and a traditional setup


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

John do you mean the one called the "Oracle" that auto tamps and auto steams or the Barista express which has the built in grinder? I would suspect they are separated in price by around £1500, but the Oracle does look interesting in that it appears that you can override the automation or not as you see fit. It does appear do be the Sage DB with extras built in so should in theory provide a good cup of coffee.


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## Big O (Feb 25, 2014)

I was told the Oracle will be showcased at the upcoming London Coffee Festival so will be interesting to see the extra gadgets on board...although I suspect it's veering too much towards B2C territory so will appeal to a certain audience not interested in brining all the variables together manually.

As for Delonghi, long time ago I played with an ESAM5400 B2C for a couple of months and although shots were "ok", what really got to me was the maintenance of the thing...I think I was spending more time vacuuming the insides of the machine than the vacuum going around the house!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I would suspect the oracle to be nearer £1800-£2000 at a guess .


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

i took on the classic as i heard it was the best starting machine for under £500 and was upgradeable. i changed the wand to the rancillio and got horrid froth. The original wand supplied was much easier to use.

The grinder was the Iberital mc2 auto. Which i'm sure was doing it's job properly other than a fault with the button.

Honestly i watched every video going and read every thread ( i had time on my hands) and could not constantly produce anything drink worthy. I even emailed a couple of companies that offered training but never got any responses.

I enjoy drinking espressos at times but mainly latte's or cappuccinos.

The Gaggia Classic is on it's way back to amazon as the baskets were continually getting stuck on the group head. And obviously i have never pulled a decent shot in over a month with decent fresh coffee beans (not cheap).

My Mrs was too scared to use the grinder and classic as she could see me struggling. We had a Saeco bean to cup for about 2 weeks before it developed a fault and we returned it. However she really liked using it as it had a milk carafe and she could press a button and it would make something nice for her and the "ladies". We could also froth milk for the kids easily which was a nice touch.

I ideally wanted to spend less than £500 and hoping that Happy Donkey are ok taking the grinder back ( it does have a fault - but they did send me the part to repair myself).

I don't want something high maintenance. But do want it to last more than a couple of years.

My gut is telling me that i need to spend £1k or more to get something worthwhile. But i really don't have that kind of money.

I don't want to touch another Gaggia Classic EVER.

P.S Thank you for your responses - amazing


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## coffeechops (Dec 23, 2013)

Personally I'd steer clear of Jura, at least the cheaper ones. I had one for a couple of years, and I give thanks every day to the guy in the shop who persuaded me to buy a manual machine when it bust for the final time. The Jura failed frequently (once within guarantee, twice outside it - and the importer seemed to think that 3000 single shots in two years was a lot; I don't, just two doubles a day), needed too much cleaning, was expensive to run. The coffee was also, I now know, very poor. A friends Saeco was better.

If you can't face the manual effort of espresso (and it isn't for everyone), then I'd suggest stick to brewed rather than bean 2 cup. Aeropress for ease and cleanliness (though Chemex/V60 are sup[posed to be good for that too) and a hand grinder (Porlex is a good start). Get good beans, use consistent amounts, temperatures and timings, tweaking one variable at a time, and you'll get there. Much cheaper and the maintenance is much less than a bean-to-cup.

Alternatively, find a local independent shop and buy in - you can buy a lot of latte for the price of a Jura!

My 2penn'th anyhow...

Colin


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## carper2k (Jul 1, 2013)

I have a Gaggia Platinum Vision it makes ok coffee but I will never get a god shot

it is configurable to a degree but does not have a milk carafe only a steam wand

same as the classic

Paul


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Good espresso like anything else takes some investment of time and effort to produce, it's not often that someone will get their 1st ever machine and grinder and be making great coffee from the 1st shot. Steaming milk is all about technique and temperature and tbh not that hard to get sorted. To pull a good espresso shot takes more work and a more analytical approach so that you can work out what is causing the issues you have. If you bought expensive beans what were they , were they from a local roaster or bought online from one of the ones listed in the beans subforum? did they have a roast date on them or did you mean expensive supermarket coffee?

Did you swap the supplied baskets out for unpressurised single wall ones, did you weigh the amount of coffee going into your portafilter and the resulting weight of liquid espresso? Good espresso demands good and consistent technique but the end result is well worth the time invested, as others have said B2C machines might make an "ok" coffee but need cleaning and maintaining a lot or they break down.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

Charliej said:


> Good espresso like anything else takes some investment of time and effort to produce, it's not often that someone will get their 1st ever machine and grinder and be making great coffee from the 1st shot. Steaming milk is all about technique and temperature and tbh not that hard to get sorted. To pull a good espresso shot takes more work and a more analytical approach so that you can work out what is causing the issues you have. If you bought expensive beans what were they , were they from a local roaster or bought online from one of the ones listed in the beans subforum? did they have a roast date on them or did you mean expensive supermarket coffee?
> 
> Did you swap the supplied baskets out for unpressurised single wall ones, did you weigh the amount of coffee going into your portafilter and the resulting weight of liquid espresso? Good espresso demands good and consistent technique but the end result is well worth the time invested, as others have said B2C machines might make an "ok" coffee but need cleaning and maintaining a lot or they break down.


I did buy a non pressurised basket and have been using that consistently.

The beans I used were from Hasbean and I also had 4 bags from Happy Donkey. This weekend I resorted to store purchased as I didn't want to commit to buying a load more. Just seems expensive when most of it goes down the drain.

I appreciate the comments about steaming milk - and think with a little patience and training I would have got there.

I started off weighing the grind, then I was advised to not bother. just fill to the top of the basket, level off with something flat then tamp down with around 30lbs pressure.

The result ended with a smooth puck just under the line in the basket.

I tried both methods weighing and levelling and even bought some little scales off amazon.

It was strange as a shot I pulled one afternoon was almost ok - then wildly off the next morning so much so it took twice as long to extract. I really do suspect a faulty machine.

I tried to keep my tamp pressure the same.

Most of the time the basket got stuck to the group head or I ended up with bits at the bottom of my drink.

I really did invest a lot of time and patience and feeling totally deflated now.

Please guide me - as money is tight and I want something that is easy so we can both make something half decent.

I'm even in two minds about returning the grinder. It does seem very capable.

I have an aeropress at work and really like it - when I get time to use it


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

For my 2p's worth of advice - and I know it's not what you want to hear... I would invest your money on some 1-2-1 training before you give up. It's certainly a lot cheaper than buying a new machine. I can't help thinking you'll be even more disappointed by the results from a B2C machine - sorry. Where are you based?

Also - Hasbean beans are typically lightly roasted and can be challenging to get right. A b2c machine will struggle. Try some other beans (maybe Rave) as you should find them easier.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

i'm based in London NW4 - my classic is already on its way back to Amazon as faulty so I am without a manual machine at all. So I just got out my Nespresso machine  easy to use but what I wanted to move away from.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

If you'd consider some training them I think it would be worth dropping Glenn a message. I think he may cover your area (apologies if I'm wrong).


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

is that Glenn at 5m coffee? I did message him (found him on google) a couple of weeks ago and didn't get a response. I'm new to this and could be a totally different trainer.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

That's the one. I'd send him a pm using the forum. He's a busy man.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

Thanks Daren - that's what I had in mind originally. I will most likely PM him as you suggest.

but now I am without a machine this seems rather pointless. I would want training at home so I could get familiar with the equipment I am using.


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## AliC (Jan 9, 2014)

Daren said:


> That's the one. I'd send him a pm using the forum. He's a busy man.


I would second that. I had to chase Glenn, but he is a genuine and super guy, so please don't be put off by a spot of radio silence.

He is just round the corner from you. Definitely worth a long chat with him. It is a pity you have no gear now, but if faulty then best sent back.

It may be possible, I don't know, to have a training session with so e of Glenn's gear. That may give an insight into what is involved (really not that much) and help you make a better informed decision on what type of set up you want to go for next.

Glenn came to me and a few small changes made a big difference.


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

I know you don't want to hear it but I'd really give the classic a go. As others have said, without regular servicing you'll get a broken b2c machine.

Classic may have been broken so try one you know works (perhaps from forum). There are loads on ebay as well and if you pick up you can confirm it works. You'll get loads of support here with your journey and some tips on keeping it simple initially and then building up.

I'd second training; I'd go for it if I lived in london!

Good luck!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

yimpster said:


> I would want training at home so I could get familiar with the equipment I am using.


That sounds like perfect sense - and Glenn offers that service (I hope he doesn't mind me speaking on his behalf







)

If you've returned your machine because it's faulty they should be able to offer you a replacement. Amazon's returns policy is superb and I don't think you'd have any trouble returning your replacement machine if Glenn's training doesn't cure your woes.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

Daren said:


> That sounds like perfect sense - and Glenn offers that service (I hope he doesn't mind me speaking on his behalf
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i'll message glen and see if he can help before I order anything else. i don't really like ebay for buying items like this. However your forum seems like a decent set of honest folk so if there was something on here that was being sold i would consider it. i could potentially contact amazon and ask them to send a replacement rather than refund but still very much in two minds.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Good luck Yimpster. I'd love to hear how you get on whichever way go. I hope you share your journey with the forum.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

just tried. apparently i can only message staff as i am a new member. could someone message him on my behalf and point him to this thread please?


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

I have a classic and I recently had to fix a couple of issues with it. The forum was invaluable. I have no doubt you'll get any help you need here.

I'm looking forward to hearing that you and your partner are loving the drinks you make!


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

yimpster said:


> just tried. apparently i can only message staff as i am a new member. could someone message him on my behalf and point him to this thread please?


No probs... leave it to me.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

yimpster said:


> just tried. apparently i can only message staff as i am a new member. could someone message him on my behalf and point him to this thread please?


10 posts can and you can pm people


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

now i need to work out if i'm going to give this another go. is there something available on here for sale that would be useful for me? Or should i contact amazon and ask for a replacement Classic instead of refund. I'm confused









I should probably choose my machine before arranging training. Is there an alternative to the Classic that's popular and worth the money?

Thanks Daren for PM'ing him for me.


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

I agree having the machine before training is the way to go. The Classic is the best machine in that price range.

If you buy used from a forum member you might be able to get one with a Rancilio steam wand, unpressurised baskets and the OPV mod. It will save you some work and will make better espresso and milk.

If you've already paid for the classic on Amazon you could ask for a replacement - if you still don't get on with it after the training then you could probably still return it. Peace of mind and a guarantee. You'd still probably end up doing the above mods though.

It's a dilemma! Perhaps some other Classic members might want to give the benefit of experience?


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Sorry Charliej I meant the Barista express as was not aware of the Oracle, I just thought it may be a nice middle ground for someone who may be reluctantly moving to bean to cup.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

What is your budget? Classics are popular for a reason and that is that they are good at what they do. If you have a more flexible budget you could get a used oscar for around 350 anyway ask away on here and you will get help and good advice. As for training there is no one better than Glenn if you are in his area, if not then you'll be close to one of us







One thing we have in common is we like to help each other drink great coffee.



yimpster said:


> now i need to work out if i'm going to give this another go. is there something available on here for sale that would be useful for me? Or should i contact amazon and ask for a replacement Classic instead of refund. I'm confused
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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

at this point i have a little flexibility in my budget and would consider something more expensive if it's worth it. I just want something that will be easy for the both of us to use once it's setup properly.

i had also already purchased the rancilo wand and unpressurised basket from Happy Donkey. Which i have requested to return. I'm not sure if they will or not as they are not faulty.

I'd never heard of an Oscar before - where would i find more information?


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

not the prettiest granted but this is it and theres a video too. http://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/nuova-simonelli-oscar-espresso-machine


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

This is a really interesting thread. I am considering getting the Classic/Iberital setup and it seems that this chap's having a bit of a bad time with it. Is it ultimately down to technique or is the Classic notoriously unforgiving? I've not read much about this side of it till now.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

frasermade said:


> This is a really interesting thread. I am considering getting the Classic/Iberital setup and it seems that this chap's having a bit of a bad time with it. Is it ultimately down to technique or is the Classic notoriously unforgiving? I've not read much about this side of it till now.


Class is a very forgiving machine and an excellent intro into the world of espresso. I've had two - one of which is over ten years old and has never put a foot wrong - now with my grateful son. Learning to make espresso does take a bit of patience and practise once cracked is worth the effort. Important to use freshly roasted good quality beans.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It's hard to question someone technique from an internet post

for anyone getting new into espresso , I would always advocate weighing and scales for dosing and extractions ,this allows you to dial in a grinder quicker and change variables if the taste doesn't suit . Plus getting fresh beans that suit your tastes .

I don't rate happy donkey as a roaster sorry , hasbean , I do but these may not be to the OP taste buds .and supermarket beans are worthless . Bad ingredient , bad coffee .

there are tips and tricks to getting the best from any machine .

any training you can get whatever the gear you own though is invaluable

there is a gent on here called funinacup that runs one to one sessions in your neck of the woods.

You can great espresso from that set up above , if you are prepared of experiment , not be too worried about blowing some beans away and or get some training ....


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

i need 5 more posts before I can contact funinacup. Only allowed to message staff at the moment







If someone could message him and direct him to this post I would be grateful.

I think i need contact with a trainer before going any further and deciding on a machine. If anyone here see's something on the used/for sale forums that would suit me then please let me know. Otherwise I can order another classic for next day delivery from Amazon very easily.

A friend of mine recommended a Rancilo Silva - should that be a consideration?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Will PM funinacup for you. Silvia has more steam power than Classic but pricier new. Worth considering second hand.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

yimpster said:


> i need 5 more posts before I can contact funinacup. Only allowed to message staff at the moment
> 
> 
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I think training is a very good idea before you go further ...

Staff lol... Literally made me laugh ,

I was relating funinacup to Fraser as he is Glasgow based

Where are you based yimster?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

At new price a Silvia just isn't worth the price premium over a Classic and they can be notoriously unforgiving too, the Gaggia Classic is the most popular starter machine for a reason, it makes good coffee once mastered. To use an analogy, you wouldn't expect to be able to walk into a professional kitchen and make restaurant standard fine dining food after just doing some research online and watching a few youtube videos, there is no substitute for some training to get you started. I had a Classic for 7 years and in many ways was sad to see it go, over the years it made me some excellent coffee one mastered.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Not sure the Silvia 'can be notoriously unforgiving', Charlie having owned both a Classic and a Silvia.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

i'm in london NW4 - Hendon (trying to get my post count up now)

I like the look of the silvia but the Amazon price is quite steep compared to the classic new. ~ £200 v £435


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi then Glenn forum owner would be located nearwr you for training purposes


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Silvia is perhaps too pricey new. Used - better bet and worth considering. Check forum for sales thread.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

i've checked through the sales - doesn't look like there is anything suitable - looks like i missed a recent one that was sold at a decent price.

i'm not really familiar with what i am looking at.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

am i allowed to post links to other websites on here?


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Being an ex Silvia owner I can confirm she is a fussy machine and takes no prisoners. If you can master her then she is a great performer. I've not owned a Classic but get impression from others that it's far more forgiving (and cheaper







). Bearing in mind your disappointing start you might be better off leaving the Sylvia out of the equation.


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

if i've had training i think i'll be able to cope - but starting with a probably faulty machine and then working backwards has given me a bad start to the journey . I always felt like the steaming wand on the classic once upgraded to the rancilo lacked power - again quite possibly my technique. i found using the original wand on the classic very easy and just left the jug in place to froth by itself.

i saw a new rancilio at what appears to be a reasonable price which i would consider. can i post the link?

I've not heard from Glenn yet and i've emailed him again via his email address too from his website.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi then Glenn forum owner would be located nearwr you for training purposes


slight highjack - does glenn cover all north london?


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

i'll ask him if he get's in touch - what's your area?


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

yimpster said:


> i'll ask him if he get's in touch - what's your area?


cheers. its finsbury park


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi all

Thanks for your messages

Hopefully I will be able to contact yimpster to discuss next steps.

I have been flatout of late (as a number of you will know - with home visits every weekend recently)

I am based in North London, only a few miles from NW4

My weekend diary is pretty full until early May but there are still a few spaces available, and some evening spots too.

I will PM yimpster in case my email did not get through.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Any news on the scace yet Glenn? My days in London are sliding away fast!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The Scace is not likely to arrive until mid-April sadly Jeebsy


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## yimpster (Mar 23, 2014)

so Glenn has "bean" in touch. We need to get my equipment sorted before I can make a date with him. I have posted in the "wanted" section for equipment. But still appreciate your guidance from here . Thank you everyone for your support so far - you really are a nice group of people


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## janf (Sep 16, 2014)

I wouldn't recommend the Gaggia Brera (priced at £425-500+). There is no adjustment with the Steam Wand, just on/off. The steam is very fierce and I found that it is impossible to get any kind of froth - just hot milk. The milk splatters over the top of the jug after 30 secs - doesn't matter how you position the wand or what combination or amount of cold jug/milk you use.


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