# versalab m3



## Tiny tamper

Quick questions, is the only way to get a new one to import it from America ?? Do they come up second hand often ??


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## The Systemic Kid

About as often as snow in June.


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## Mrboots2u

Seen one in my time and it sold in less than 10 minutes


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## Mrboots2u

If one came up there would be of of competition for it....


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## Geordie Boy

I wonder how many are even in the country?

Mind you, not seeing many 2nd hand is generally a sign of happy owners


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## Tiny tamper

Geordie Boy said:


> I wonder how many are even in the country?
> 
> Mind you, not seeing many 2nd hand is generally a sign of happy owners


Yes thats a good point, Import it is then


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## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> If one came up there would be of of competition for it....


I don't remember there being much competition for Ron's Versalab when he sold that. As the others have said pretty much the only way you'll get your hands on one is to buy from manufacturers in the USA, which then means you also need to decide if you want the Terranova mods doing before it reaches you ( I'm not sure exactly what the mods do but I know they are highly rated over on HB). I would hazard a guess that there are no more than handful of them in the UK anyway and that most people wouldn't part with their's even if offered a barely used female kidney.


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## ronsil

There are under 12 in the UK according to Laura at Versalab when I asked her a year or so ago.

They rarely come up secondhand. When I sold mine to coffee chap on here it happened in a 'blink of an eye'

The only way to get one is to import from US. Total current cost including duty & shipping is circa £2200

Unless you are seeking engineering perfection the mods are not necessary IMHO. The Grinder never gave me a days worry all the years I enjoyed it


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## Mrboots2u

You right As usual Charlie no one else wanted it or was trying to type I'll take it when it was posted up.


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## Geordie Boy

I've just remembered that i spoke to someone who had one of those 12 outside in the que at the LCF. He sold his on but I can't remember the reason why? That's going to annoy me now!!!!!


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## Tiny tamper

Charliej said:


> most people wouldn't part with their's even if offered a barely used female kidney.


i dont think they have the same value in the grinder black market as they do in the tamper blackmarket


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## Obnic

Charliej said:


> .....Terranova mods ....I'm not sure exactly what the mods do.


There is a fascinating step-by-step thread on HB that shows exactly what Terranova did to his Versalab. I couldn't stop reading. It came on line as he completed each step rather like a soap opera.

The core modifications were to ensure that the burrs stayed absolutely true to each other and that the belt drive did not slip. This involved re-engineering a two piece drive rod into a single piece and incorporating better bearings so that the drive rod stayed perfectly central as it span. I think the drive belt and sprocket were given teeth so that they would not slip under effort. The other modifications were cosmetic: a beautiful scale for grind, and refinished and polished grinder elements.

Rumour has it the end product is $5000 but it will certainly be for vorsprung durch precision. Terranova and his friends are obviously most capable and detail people.

This is my dream grinder, as much for its story as for its alleged ability in the cup.


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## ronsil

Obnic said:


> This is my dream grinder, as much for its story as for its alleged ability in the cup.


The Versalab in daily use will meet all your Home use requirements. It just produces near perfect coffee grounds.

It has to accepted it is slow but if your needs do not require more than 3-6 drinks at one time then it is the almost perfect answer.

Most people who have them love them.

The 'mods' satisfy engineering perfection & a joy to observe but as for noticeably improving the coffee??????.

Really capable people love to re-invent the wheel


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## coffeechap

Twice the money for what is already a fantastic grinder, just don't think the modifications are worth the money.


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## ronsil

There you go - thats two of us with hands on experience!


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## DavidBondy

Is it really as huge as it looks?


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## ronsil

The basic machine is quite small. The optional 2 hoppers make it appear much bigger


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## Tiny tamper

Its working out at £1400 for the grinder including vat so where does the other £800 come from ?? I know theres some import fee,s and postage but it cant amount to 800 quid surely ?


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## Terranova

If alignment / parallel burrs / particle size distribution doesn´t make a difference in taste, then temperature stability and brew pressure also doesn´t make a difference at any espresso machine.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahhUH31DHUg&list=UUyynBy90JgZ7763nIJCTpCQ


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## coffeechap

Terranova said:


> If alignment / parallel burrs / particle size distribution doesn´t make a difference in taste, then temperature stability and brew pressure also doesn´t make a difference at any espresso machine.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahhUH31DHUg&list=UUyynBy90JgZ7763nIJCTpCQ


Lot of ifs there! I don't think anyone is disputing the quality of your work or the outcome, it is the perceived gain versus the price involved. My versalab produces pretty good grind consistency and in the cup is excellent and it is completely unmodified!! Why do I need to spend another £2000 on it?

When will we see your grinder come to the market as surely re-engineering is more costly than ground up building, especially with your knowledge.


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## ronsil

Pure opinion but looks & quality aside I just cannot see what improvement to the coffee has been made to justify double the price.

The mods make it a beautiful working monument & I'd be proud to own one BUT not at that money.


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## Terranova

coffeechap said:


> My versalab produces pretty good grind consistency and in the cup is excellent and it is completely unmodified!! Why do I need to spend another £2000 on it?


I don´t blame you and without a doubt you might be a lucky owner with a good running M3. It is just Ronsil who recommends an M3 although it is a gamble if you get a good one or not, so he ignores that many other users have serious problems. Every grinder at VL is built to order and no funnel will fit in another middle plate than the original one. Not even the PF holder will fit on any other M3, just by coincidence. I don´t know where the 2k price comes from, but if you want high tech materials and high tech coatings it really might end up in this price range, but it got nothing to do with functionality of the grinder. This for example was a no profit project, every detail is listed. http://www.home-barista.com/buysell/versalab-m3-custom-built-t29361.html


coffeechap said:


> When will we see your grinder come to the market as surely re-engineering is more costly than ground up building, especially with your knowledge.


You are right of course, but to build something without a compromise regarding function, accuracy and durability will at least double the price of the American pendant. Some people like a 911 Carrera, others prefere a 911 Turbo which doubles the price, for some it is worth it, for others it is not... so easy.


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## ronsil

Tiny tamper said:


> Its working out at £1400 for the grinder including vat


No that's without one hopper & VAT which would have to be paid on entering the UK together with unknown customs duty plus shipping with insurance approx £120.

Would certainly agree the $ to £ conversion has improved over the past year & since I last totalled it up.

I paid a total £1850 seven years ago.


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## ronsil

Terranova said:


> I don´t blame you and without a doubt you might be a lucky owner with a good running M3. It is just Ronsil who recommends an M3 although it is a gamble if you get a good one or not, so he ignores that many other users have serious problems.


....errrrrh?? we are talking about the same Grinder here. I sold it to coffeechap.

It was certainly not a gamble for me. It performed exactly as stated by Versalab. If it had not I would have returned it to the makers.


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## Terranova

ronsil said:


> ....errrrrh?? we are talking about the same Grinder here. I sold it to coffeechap.It was certainly not a gamble for me. It performed exactly as stated by Versalab. If it had not I would have returned it to the makers.


I think you did not get my point, might be my bad english to blame.The point is, not 2 M3´s are the same, you know of many unhappy users at HB (you read the thread) so recommending this grinder is more than optimistic. A return would not be accepted, as long as everything is inside their personal tolerances, you would have to pay for the shipping costs. I know more than one story like this. But it is still the best grinder available, you just need some luck.


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## Obnic

Agree. So dibs on yours Dave when you're ready to release it into the wild again


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## Obnic

coffeechap said:


> Twice the money for what is already a fantastic grinder, just don't think the modifications are worth the money.





ronsil said:


> There you go - thats two of us with hands on experience!


Sorry just figuring out multiquote facility. These two go with preceding post.


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## ronsil

I can only say I know a lot of the UK owners who would endorse the Versalab as is.

Please understand no one doubts the beauty & the improvements with your 'mods'.

IMO Just not worth the extra money for the perceived gain in coffee extraction quality.

Sorry but after the many years of ownership that opinion is not going to change.

I wish you well with your mods


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## Gangstarrrrr

Think there is a known issue with some leaving the factory with misaligned burrs or run out on the spindle (read HB for the specifics). Others come out fine. It's a bit of a gamble and put me off getting one, I would have got it on one of my trips over there otherwise. I would have snapped up Ron's if I had been quicker as I'm sure some others on here would have too!


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## Obnic

Terranova said:


> http://www.home-barista.com/buysell/versalab-m3-custom-built-t29361.html...without a compromise regarding function, accuracy and durability.


Still my dream machine. 

I can completely relate to the need to 'fix' something that isn't quite right. I've been bringing a 30 year old motor-yacht back to 'like new' but better. I'll never see the money back out (boats are nothing like houses) but the process is intrinsically rewarding. What I love about Terranova's story is that he actually finished the process - nothing was left undone.


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## Tiny tamper

Boat = break out another thousand but I'm sure your well aware looking at your work looks mint nice job


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## charris

One question regarding the versalab: why dont we see it mentioned often as the other great grinders like the robur, mythos, k10, ek and even the k30? It seems it is better than everything except the ek?


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## 4085

Because they are a rare beast over here. You have to import them which involves additional taxes and duty and they are seriously slow!


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## Tiny tamper

charris;19090imports estion regarding the versalab: why dont we see it mentioned often as the other great grinders like the robur said:


> They all have to be imported (m3) which drives the final price up, the others you mention are more readily available in the UK, Imho


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## charris

dfk41 said:


> Because they are a rare beast over here. You have to import them which involves additional taxes and duty and they are seriously slow!


Slow is good though from what i am reading?


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## coffeechap

The versalab grind quality is awesome, it is a bit of faff to use but mine is going nowhere.... I don't say that about many grinders


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## 4085

It does produce a lovely grind, but, an HG1 is faster! There is slow and slow, you have to trade it off!


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## charris

coffeechap said:


> The versalab grind quality is awesome, it is a bit of faff to use but mine is going nowhere.... I don't say that about many grinders


Dave, what about compared to ek and royal?


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## coffeechap

Hg1 is not faster than the versalab and both are a faff, the versalab is top notch on grind quality, better than a royal for sure, the EK is a whole new ball game but impossible to find second hand, the robur and k10 are awesome grind consistency as well.


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## Viernes

You can do other things while the M3 grinds... I don't think you can do the same with the HG1 except do some biceps work. So I don't think it's slower...


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## ronsil

The Versalab & the EK produce two different tasting espressos with the same bean.

IMO Both have their place in the top of the grinder world with the excellent results they produce.


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## Brewdog

Looks like an amazing piece of kit


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## EricC

ronsil said:


> There you go - thats two of us with hands on experience!


Make that three, and i fully agree with both what you and coffeechap have already said above.


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## 4085

I think the Versalab is really good, but I could not have it as my only grinder, as my coffee habit means I am often, without warning, making several at once. Ronsil knows how close I came to buying one last year. I set the sale up but at the last minute bottled out and bought the K10 Fresh instead.


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## EricC

Terranova said:


> Not even the PF holder will fit on any other M3


I don't know where you get this from.

I bought my Versalab before the PF holders were available, I then ordered the PF holder after i had seen it and it fitted straight onto my grinder.

Kind regards

Eric


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## ronsil

I think I knew you felt the same about the M3 but nice to see you confirm.

To try & clarify the situation, you are probably aware, there is a very personal anti Versalab element on HB which dates back many years.

These are the most vocal folk so it covers the many who think the same as we do. The thread got so personal, unpleasant & nasty it was locked down

IMO Yes the mods do make it into a beautiful,immaculate machine but just not worth double the money for what is already a very reliable piece of gear.


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## oop north

When you all say it takes a long time to grind a dose, what do you mean by a long time?

I am wanting at some stage in the next year or so to jump up to a lifetime grinder (from the SJ) to do justice to my LI - at the moment, the EK and HG-one are in contention, the versa lab should be in there too I think


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## coffeechap

Just to clarify, I grind 16.5 grams of coffee on the vesalab in around 15 seconds, so not fast by ek standards , 1.6 seconds, but not a slow as the HG1, I find it is perfectly fine for 1 or two drinks but takes time when doing multiple drinks, however i am grinding the next shot i need as the first shot is extracting, and tend to have the second portafilter prepped just after the first shot finishes, so no real problems. The faster grinders can of course grind very quickly but you are always restricted on time by the 34 seconds it takes for a shot to extract on the L1.

I really rate the grind consistency on the versalab and for those that know me I dont say that about many grinders. I also rate the Hg1 and the EK43 as well though


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## Tiny tamper

coffeechap said:


> Just to clarify, I grind 16.5 grams of coffee on the vesalab in around 15 seconds, so not fast by ek standards , 1.6 seconds, but not a slow as the HG1, I find it is perfectly fine for 1 or two drinks but takes time when doing multiple drinks, however i am grinding the next shot i need as the first shot is extracting, and tend to have the second portafilter prepped just after the first shot finishes, so no real problems. The faster grinders can of course grind very quickly but you are always restricted on time by the 34 seconds it takes for a shot to extract on the L1.
> 
> I really rate the grind consistency on the versalab and for those that know me I dont say that about many grinders. I also rate the Hg1 and the EK43 as well though


If ur ever thinking of selling it give me a shout


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## ronsil

oop north said:


> what do you mean by a long time?


A long time!!! - Quicker than a HG1 but much, much slower than an EK. The rotation is slow which keeps the grinds cool.

The Versalab does what a HG does but much easier, quicker & just a shade more fluffy. The EK is super fast but the result is similar to the Versalab.

For home use I would suggest the Versalab would cover most of your needs but if you are looking to output maybe 6+ espresso based drinks at a time then consider the EK.

You have the option of hoppers with the V but it hardly speeds up multiple dispensing requirements. For this you need more than 1 machine in a coffee shop for example.

Have no doubt for normal Home use the V is difficult to beat.

I only changed because my requirements are for more than 10-15 drinks at one time


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## coffeechap

and i am certainly glad you opted to change Ron


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## oop north

Thanks for the answers, guys, very helpful (as ever







)

It is starting to look like (keeping my sensible financial head on [ha ha, yeah right!]) the HG one might be the right one for me - I rarely make as many as half a dozen drinks at a time and it is usually just the one for me, maybe adding one or two for my wife and sister in law. I am going to have a session some time at Mr Systemic's to play on his HG one and Ek but I am probably wanting to leave the decision a few months more, yet. It doesn't seem to make that much sense to blow an extra grand on an EK when the HG one gets me pretty close (0bv I know I need to try myself rather than just rely on reviews before Mr Boots reminds me of that







)


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## coffeechap

Good choice, i dont think you will be dissapointed with the results from the hg1, might even get patrick to relinquish his!!!


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## Terranova

ronsil said:


> The EK is super fast but the result is similar to the Versalab.


Does this mean by taste in the cup ? Or by analysis of particle size of the grind ? The Ek 43 is producing the most ammount of fines compared to many other grinders i.e Mazzer Robur, Mahlkonig K30, Anfim Super Caimano. The burr geometry of the DRM vs EK 43 is very different, that´s why I am asking. @ EriC very cool story with the PF holder, so the holes and threads for the PF holder must have been drilled by Versalab before the PF holder was invented ?


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## coffeechap

Thats really strange frank as the users of the uk43 with coffee burrs are noticing much less fines then other grinders, are you using turkish burrs?


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## jeebsy

Pergers study showed ek produced more 'fines' but they were closer to the target particle size. The fines with the robur were more significant because you had loads of fines but also big boulders which skewed extraction

http://mattperger.com/The-EK43-Part-Three


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## ronsil

Terranova said:


> Does this mean by taste in the cup ? Or by analysis of particle size of the grind ? @ EriC very cool story with the PF holder, so the holes and threads for the PF holder must have been drilled by Versalab before the PF holder was invented ?


The taste in the cup is how I judge my coffee equipment. I am not scientific & my coffee skills do not encompass minute examination of the fines.

I have said before in another thread & others have agreed with me, the EK IMO produces a different kind of espresso, not better, not worse than the Versalab but decidedly different.

If you speak to Laura at Versalab she will tell you the PF holder was always going to be an option & they therefore pre-drilled the holder holes to take whatever size of PF holder you wished to accommodate.


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## 4085

By my reckoning, the Versalab is currently just a shade under £1300 for the base unit and ph holder. Carriage is on top, then import duty, so I am guessing a ball park figure of around £1550 in the UK.


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## Terranova

ronsil said:


> The taste in the cup is how I judge my coffee equipment. .


Of course, I think that this is what we all do and that is why I was wondering about you having a "similar result" between 2 totally different grinders and different burr geometry. One is made for espresso, the other is made for other brewing methods which need a more homogeneous / uniform grind.So just another evidence how subjective taste is. Yea I can ask Laura, but I don´t need to. I had the problem of different Versalabs and the PF holder would not fit on any other Versalab. So practice and theorie does not always go hand in hand.


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## oop north

coffeechap said:


> Good choice, i dont think you will be dissapointed with the results from the hg1, might even get patrick to relinquish his!!!


As if Patrick will ever relinquish hold of his beautiful ornament


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## oop north

dfk41 said:


> By my reckoning, the Versalab is currently just a shade under £1300 for the base unit and ph holder. Carriage is on top, then import duty, so I am guessing a ball park figure of around £1550 in the UK.


No, please tell me it is lots more so I can ignore it!


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## ronsil

Terranova said:


> So just another evidence how subjective taste is.


That's probably about the only thing I am able to agree with you on. Sorry.


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## Terranova

Oh I don´t take it personally. I have noticed your ignorance for details much earlier. Never mind, bye.


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## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> By my reckoning, the Versalab is currently just a shade under £1300 for the base unit and ph holder. Carriage is on top, then import duty, so I am guessing a ball park figure of around £1550 in the UK.


But it wont do brewed very well... nor will it run for 45 mins and chomp 30kgs in one go


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## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> Thats really strange frank as the users of the uk43 with coffee burrs are noticing much less fines then other grinders, are you using turkish burrs?


More ''fines'' in terms of bits at minute microns, but these ''fines'' are less fine compared to majority of the particles across the range


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## coffeechap

garydyke1 said:


> But it wont do brewed very well... nor will it run for 45 mins and chomp 30kgs in one go


not but it fits under the units and doesnt consume your kitchen


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## ronsil

Have just relooked at the current price:

Basic Versalab M3 $1985 plus

PF Holder of choice $185 =

Total $2170

Shipping $130 (remember weight)

$ Total $2390.00 at say £1.60 rate of exchange = £1493.75

Plus 20% VAT on arrival £299 so grand total expenditure currently = £1791

E&OE (not sure about VAT on the shipping)


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## garydyke1

coffeechap said:


> not but it fits under the units and doesnt consume your kitchen


Yeah I lost a fridge when it accidentally sucked in through the hopper, that motor is a beast !


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## 4085

I do not think it is advertised as anything but an espresso grinder. The ability to do brewed is only relevant if you drink brewed, and I do not! It is an interesting thought though, a Versalab paired with a decent flat burr grinder to cover all bases. Perhaps I should sell my K8 fresh!


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## Mrboots2u

ronsil said:


> Have just relooked at the current price:
> 
> Basic Versalab M3 $1985 plus
> 
> PF Holder of choice $185 =
> 
> Total $2170
> 
> Shipping $130 (remember weight)
> 
> $ Total $2390.00 at say £1.60 rate of exchange = £1493.75
> 
> Plus 20% VAT on arrival £299 so grand total expenditure currently = £1791
> 
> E&OE (not sure about VAT on the shipping)


sorry ron , can you qualify that last bit E&OE?


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## coffeechap

Terranova said:


> Oh I don´t take it personally. I have noticed your ignorance for details much earlier. Never mind, bye.


Frank clearly you are taking it personally, you have openly stated that you dont think the quality of the vesalab is up to much UNLESS your mods are done, then you say it is however still the best grinder on the market. So which is it, or is your modified grinder the best grinder on the planet, if so why did i not see one at the WBC?


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> I do not think it is advertised as anything but an espresso grinder. The ability to do brewed is only relevant if you drink brewed, and I do not! It is an interesting thought though, a Versalab paired with a decent flat burr grinder to cover all bases. Perhaps I should sell my K8 fresh!


Need to sell the zenith first


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## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> I do not think it is advertised as anything but an espresso grinder. The ability to do brewed is only relevant if you drink brewed, and I do not! It is an interesting thought though, a Versalab paired with a decent flat burr grinder to cover all bases. Perhaps I should sell my K8 fresh!


Agreed. If espresso was the only beverage being made the EK perhaps isnt the right solution, certainly isnt the cheapest.


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## Mrboots2u

Terranova said:


> Oh I don´t take it personally. I have noticed your ignorance for details much earlier. Never mind, bye.


I think we can agree to disagree without being personal


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> Need to sell the zenith first


Is that an offer! The Zenith does not come into the equation. I have people up here who will buy it, but I just thought the forum should get first offer. If people cannot see a bargain then that's not my problem!

I suppose the Zenith plus the K8 puts me very close to a Versalab though. but, would need to sort a second grinder out first, or rather second!


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## ronsil

Mrboots2u said:


> sorry ron , can you qualify that last bit E&OE?


E&OE = Errors & Omissions Excepted


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## Viernes

dfk41 said:


> I think the Versalab is really good, but I could not have it as my only grinder, as my coffee habit means I am often, without warning, making several at once. Ronsil knows how close I came to buying one last year. I set the sale up but at the last minute bottled out and bought the K10 Fresh instead.


For example, 6 double shots in a row.

K10: 6 x 4s = 24s

M3: 6x 15s = 90s

66 seconds less really worth it versus sacrifice near 2 double shots everytime you have to purge the K10 or make a minimal change in the grind setting?

Of course everyone have their preferences, but.... Well, it's just a thought.


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## 4085

ronsil said:


> Have just relooked at the current price:
> 
> Basic Versalab M3 $1985 plus
> 
> PF Holder of choice $185 =
> 
> Total $2170
> 
> Shipping $130 (remember weight)
> 
> $ Total $2390.00 at say £1.60 rate of exchange = £1493.75
> 
> Plus 20% VAT on arrival £299 so grand total expenditure currently = £1791
> 
> E&OE (not sure about VAT on the shipping)


$2170 plus $130 makes $2300 in my books which on the average exchange site comes in at £1340....hows that for an instant saving!


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## 4085

Viernes, I no longer have the K10 so do not have the frustration that goes with owning one! I do have a K8 fresh which I really do rate very highly. If I bought a Versalab it would be to use all of the time but having a second half decent grinder as a number two, maybe a Mythos to help cope with the frustrations !


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## coffeechap

Oh and another thing frank you have been rude to probably the most polite innocuous member of this forum, does it make you feel great?


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## ronsil

Depends how you are going to pay of course.

When I purchased they would only do it through PayPal & I don't think you'll get that rate with them.

Best thing David is try it & see. You would have no trouble selling it here or on the bay, even maybe at a small profit


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## Viernes

ronsil said:


> The Versalab & the EK produce two different tasting espressos with the same bean.





ronsil said:


> The EK is super fast but the result is similar to the Versalab.


I think you must be made a mistake... The sentences are opposite. Isn't it?


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## Charliej

VAT and Import duty are imposed on the total price including the shipping these days.


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## ronsil

No not quite. The EK grinds espresso as well as the Versalab, fluffy,light & no clumps or retention so in that they are similar but it does produce a different tasting drink with the same bean.


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## Viernes

ronsil said:


> No not quite. The EK grinds espresso as well as the Versalab, fluffy,light & no clumps or retention so in that they are similar but it does produce a different tasting drink with the same bean.


Thought you were talking about "taste in the cup". They can't be similar because, as you said, they produce a different taste. The M3 produces one of the best *classic* espresso out there IMO due to their *classic espresso burrs*, while the EK43 cope with *new* espresso with some unimodal burrs originally made for other kinds of coffee.



ronsil said:


> You have the option of hoppers with the V but it hardly speeds up multiple dispensing requirements.


Hey, of course it speed up a lot. Not need to weight every dose speed up things considerably. Just not enough for a coffee shop...


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## ronsil

I agree with that & reiterate what I said. Both machines grind to a very high standard. The output looks similar but the taste in the cup is different. Maybe an EK produces a different drink similar to the espresso we all love but different.

The hopper system on the Versalab does work well but multiple machines are needed to cope commercially. I always found it best to dose individually & for use at home keeps the coffee fresher rather than leave for extended periods in a hopper.


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## Tiny tamper

ronsil said:


> Have just relooked at the current price:
> 
> Basic Versalab M3 $1985 plus
> 
> PF Holder of choice $185 =
> 
> Total $2170
> 
> Shipping $130 (remember weight)
> 
> $ Total $2390.00 at say £1.60 rate of exchange = £1493.75
> 
> Plus 20% VAT on arrival £299 so grand total expenditure currently = £1791
> 
> E&OE (not sure about VAT on the shipping)


Yeah I worked it out @ around 1800 give or take so its closer to 2k than 1k that's fer sure


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## Gangstarrrrr

I think I will get one on my next trip over to the US. Hopefully BA will be able to safely transport it home.


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## Obnic

coffeechap said:


> Frank clearly you are taking it personally...





Mrboots2u said:


> I think we can agree to disagree without being personal


Going to hazard a guess here (since I have worked and been friends with many German engineering colleagues over the years) that we are reading a tone of voice into @Terranova's words that he probably does not intend. I read his remarks to mean that he had recognised earlier in the conversation that he put greater value on details like accuracy of the bearings than Ron, and respected that, and so he had not been upset by Ron's views.

Much the same as we put greater value on well made coffee than most of the coffee drinking public.... but I'm not sure I'm always so polite about that 

He may have exited the thread though because he wasn't managing to influence the consensus. I hope not - he's a heavyweight.


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## charris

Obnic said:


> Going to hazard a guess here (since I have worked and been friends with many German engineering colleagues over the years) that we are reading a tone of voice into @Terranova's words that he probably does not intend. I read his remarks to mean that he had recognised earlier in the conversation that he put greater value on details like accuracy of the bearings than Ron, and respected that, and so he had not been upset by Ron's views.
> 
> Much the same as we put greater value on well made coffee than most of the coffee drinking public.... but I'm not sure I'm always so polite about that
> 
> He may have exited the thread though because he wasn't managing to influence the consensus. I hope not - he's a heavyweight.


Agreed. I would really like to see Frank posting more here, after all this forum has proved that is now at the top of the coffee related sites.


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## Blackstone

Gangstarrrrr said:


> I think I will get one on my next trip over to the US. Hopefully BA will be able to safely transport it home.


If you are in business or first they can put it in the wardrobe


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## Gangstarrrrr

Blackstone said:


> If you are in business or first they can put it in the wardrobe


That's a good point, I've got loads of miles and a 241 voucher but I suspect the box might not even got through the X-ray scanner...


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## Charliej

I have to agree with Obnic, often German when translated into English can come across as very formal, literal and abrupt if the writer isn't that aware of English idioms and sentence structure, or perhaps uses some form of online translator. Try putting an English sentence into Google translate and then translate it from English via several European languages back to English and see what your original sentence looks like.


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## Mrboots2u

Rons entitled to his opinion , he had an unmoved grinder for 6 years

Frank is entitled to his , he charges money modding them

If frank thinks we have misconstrued his post as rude rather then "germanic " then he only has to say so .


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## EricC

Terranova said:


> @ EriC very cool story with the PF holder, so the holes and threads for the PF holder must have been drilled by Versalab before the PF holder was invented ?


No, the whole lower front plate is replaced with a new one complete with the PF holder already built onto it.


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## Viernes

ronsil said:


> The hopper system on the Versalab does work well but multiple machines are needed to cope commercially. I always found it best to dose individually & for use at home keeps the coffee fresher rather than leave for extended periods in a hopper.


I understand your point, however the issue about if it's better to leave the beans in the hopper or open the bag *let a load of oxigen enters* take a scoop and close it, and repeat this every time you want a coffee, is better than the hopper method, probably would need a new thread.

In home with the M3 to serve several espressos, the doser system it's highly recommended IMO. One of the problem with the hoppers is the material. The plastic sucks big time to keep the food fresh. The plastic hoppers usually stinks when you sniff inside, the coffee oils go rancid inside. Frank's M3 glass hoppers minimize this. This hoppers are usually dark to reduce exposure to light and the glass itself are far better than the plastic to keep the food nice.


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## charris

ronsil said:


> Have just relooked at the current price:
> 
> Basic Versalab M3 $1985 plus
> 
> PF Holder of choice $185 =
> 
> Total $2170
> 
> Shipping $130 (remember weight)
> 
> $ Total $2390.00 at say £1.60 rate of exchange = £1493.75
> 
> Plus 20% VAT on arrival £299 so grand total expenditure currently = £1791
> 
> E&OE (not sure about VAT on the shipping)


I think there is a way to avoid VAT from the US. In addition to the above there should be import tax - most items usually have some import tax imposed to them according to category. Anyway some of my friends ship stuff from the US and there are ways to avoid VAT and import tax - I will try to find out how.


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## The Systemic Kid

Legally I hope, in case the tax man is reading this


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## DavidBondy

I think it is getting tougher - I used have the odd package arrive without being levied but the last year or so every single one has been charged.

I have a maildrop address in the US and that can sometimes work out cheaper.

I'd love an M3. I was really, really impressed when I saw Eric's.


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## jeebsy

You can mark it under value but then if it gets lost and you need to make a claim you're buggered.


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## charris

I think it is legally and not with the under value way but as David says it is getting tougher. I think they add the stuff to shipments from moving companies for people that are changing countries - I will find out more, some of my friends bought all their new born baby stuff this way I think.


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## ronsil

DavidBondy said:


> I think it is getting tougher - I used have the odd package arrive without being levied but the last year or so every single one has been charged.


I agree with that.

I used to have Hottops direct from Taiwan & was never charged anything extra. Also my Versalab was declared at full cost on the customs form but was never charged.

That was maybe five or more years ago.

Nowadays nothing seems to get missed. I had 2 x $158 control boards for a HT conversion within the last 2 years & both got caught on entry. I had some steam wand tips from Chris Coffee at $38 & had to pay at the local sorting office before delivery. Thank goodness Hottop now keep a few machines & some spares here in the UK.


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## Dylan

Something like this would be easy to undervalue at customs if you so wished, if this said $200 on the side the customs guys wouldn't know any better. I have had expensive ski bindings delivered with minimal charges this way. You of course need a seller who is prepared to do this, most are but some get nervous about it.

By far the best way is to be in the fortunate position of making a trip to america yourself, or have a friend who is and then bring it back in luggage, where you are not liable for the taxes.


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## Nod

What about a group buy?


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## Mrboots2u

Nod said:


> What about a group buy?


Unsure you would get discount to be honest....


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## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


> Unsure you would get discount to be honest....


Or a sufficient number of people wanting to buy.


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## ronsil

To my knowledge Versalab do not do discounts nor will they falsify values on a customs document.

You do need to factor in the full VAT & Duty to be paid if you want to buy one.


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## Gangstarrrrr

ronsil said:


> To my knowledge Versalab do not do discounts nor will they falsify values on a customs document.
> 
> You do need to factor in the full VAT & Duty to be paid if you want to buy one.


Unless you pick it up in person...

*not legal btw


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## DavidBondy

D_Evans said:


> Something like this would be easy to undervalue at customs if you so wished, if this said $200 on the side the customs guys wouldn't know any better. I have had expensive ski bindings delivered with minimal charges this way. You of course need a seller who is prepared to do this, most are but some get nervous about it.
> 
> By far the best way is to be in the fortunate position of making a trip to america yourself, or have a friend who is and then bring it back in luggage, where you are not liable for the taxes.


Sorry but I have to take issue with you on twe points. Firstly, if the sender undervalues the goods then they assume all the risk if it is lost or damaged because their insurance would be based on the declared value. Most reputable people won't do it.

Secondly, your personal duty free limit if you're hand carrying it, is way less than the cost of an M3! It is going to be x-rayed in any case and if you're stopped you'd have to declare it and pay the duty.

I think the only way is to be totally honest and pay what is due!!

DB


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## Dylan

DavidBondy said:


> Sorry but I have to take issue with you on twe points. Firstly, if the sender undervalues the goods then they assume all the risk if it is lost or damaged because their insurance would be based on the declared value. Most reputable people won't do it.
> 
> Secondly, your personal duty free limit if you're hand carrying it, is way less than the cost of an M3! It is going to be x-rayed in any case and if you're stopped you'd have to declare it and pay the duty.
> 
> I think the only way is to be totally honest and pay what is due!!
> 
> DB


I wouldn't dispute either point.

Some sellers are well aware that these things rarely, if ever, get followed up, and I have on more than one occasion had goods undervalued to avoid customs. I am not saying the seller of the versalab will do this, as I said, many are far too 'nervous' or if you prefer 'law abiding' to do this.

I would be very surprised if a customs official stopped you at the airport with an m3 claiming to know its full value, officially of course you would have to pay the duty. I am not trying to illustrate how things officially work but merely how they do, and what you can 'get away with'.


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## Gangstarrrrr

DavidBondy said:


> Sorry but I have to take issue with you on twe points. Firstly, if the sender undervalues the goods then they assume all the risk if it is lost or damaged because their insurance would be based on the declared value. Most reputable people won't do it.
> 
> Secondly, your personal duty free limit if you're hand carrying it, is way less than the cost of an M3! It is going to be x-rayed in any case and if you're stopped you'd have to declare it and pay the duty.
> 
> I think the only way is to be totally honest and pay what is due!!
> 
> DB


It is only being x rayed on the way out - this country doesn't care or know if you pay duty on it.

You obviously carry the risk of getting pulled by customs and we can debate the morality of it all day long but this activity isn't unusual, I'd guess thousands arriving into the UK every day are blowing their duty free limit although obviously not very often on the scale of the m3.


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## Charliej

Everyone who's talking about bringing one back in person might want to check their airline's excess baggage weight policy, as I believe the Versalab is rather heavy, and airlines can charge a fortune per kilo over your limit.


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## Gangstarrrrr

Charliej said:


> Everyone who's talking about bringing one back in person might want to check their airline's excess baggage weight policy, as I believe the Versalab is rather heavy, and airlines can charge a fortune per kilo over your limit.


It's 32kg so biz or first would cover it


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## Dylan

Extra weight is also not that expensive if you pay for it in advance.


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## Charliej

D_Evans said:


> Extra weight is also not that expensive if you pay for it in advance.


Depends on the airline Dylan, I would be worried about sticking a £2k grinder in as hold baggage , having seen what baggage handlers can do to even the most solid suitcases and flight cases for sound and music gear.


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## Dylan

Charliej said:


> Depends on the airline Dylan, I would be worried about sticking a £2k grinder in as hold baggage , having seen what baggage handlers can do to even the most solid suitcases and flight cases for sound and music gear.


Whilst its true that many charge exorbitant prices, especially when you are just taking clothes, if it is in comparison to a tax saving it would seem more reasonable.

I'm not sure baggage handlers have a worse reputation than international post, but either way all risks should be considered, and obviously weighed against a slightly-illicit saving of money.


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## sarends

Frank has had far FAR more Versalab experience than any single Versalab owner. He was simply not given proper (IMO) credit for this, hence he exited this (once fascinating) thread.

At the point in time (I guess) the thread participant(s) here were taking objection to (almost everything) Frank was saying they could not see into the future, where Terranova has now modified several dozen Versalab M3s( as far as I can tell by reading on here andon HB, etc). Frank's point was that some Versalabs were really good and some were OK and some were pretty bad, has (from everything I have read) turned out to be pretty much true.

IMO, essentially one user here, subjectively, and in order to justify their (sole) position (somewhat) aggressively offended a manufacturer with much more objective experience and (very valuable) engineering knowledge.

Too bad guys


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## Dylan

sarends said:


> Frank has had far FAR more Versalab experience than any single Versalab owner. He was simply not given proper (IMO) credit for this, hence he exited this (once fascinating) thread.
> 
> At the point in time (I guess) the thread participant(s) here were taking objection to (almost everything) Frank was saying they could not see into the future, where Terranova has now modified several dozen Versalab M3s( as far as I can tell by reading on here andon HB, etc). Frank's point was that some Versalabs were really good and some were OK and some were pretty bad, has (from everything I have read) turned out to be pretty much true.
> 
> IMO, essentially one user here, subjectively, and in order to justify their (sole) position (somewhat) aggressively offended a manufacturer with much more objective experience and (very valuable) engineering knowledge.
> 
> Too bad guys


Frank's contributions were great, I agree it is a shame he left this discussion and the forum but it is not as simple as your post suggests.


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## sarends

Dylan,

I am sure you are right, I only just began reading on coffeeforums.co.uk

cheers



Dylan said:


> Frank's contributions were great, I agree it is a shame he left this discussion and the forum but it is not as simple as your post suggests.


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## Jason1wood

Resurrecting this thread as may be looking to get one of these in the foreseeable


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## DoubleShot

@Jason1wood

In case you haven't already read this (posted earlier in this thread)?


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## Jason1wood

DoubleShot said:


> @Jason1wood
> 
> In case you haven't already read this (posted earlier in this thread)?


Thanks mate. Will read that later, off out for breakfast in the sun with gf


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## Obnic

Jason1wood said:


> .....off out for breakfast in the sun with gf


Likely to be more rewarding than an V.M3 I reckon


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