# Sage DB - New Owners Thread



## jamster

This is a thread for tips and tricks for new owners of the Sage DB (of which there are a few, thanks for Amazon, JL and Lakeland's erratic pricing recently







)

I am using the single-wall dual shot basket with Rave Signature. I've upped the temperature by a couple of degrees as I find that Rave Signature often comes out sour at lower temperatures. I need to fiddle with the grind some more too but I'm pretty close. I'd be interested in recommendations for beans that really shine on this machine?

Milk is steaming really well. Very impressed by that.

How is everyone else getting on?


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## Craig-R872

Thanks for starting the thread. Should be a good place to pick up hints and tips.

Has anyone had there white glove service? I am waiting for my grinder to arrive before I book mine. Once that's here and I am set up I can hopefully be more of a help on this thread.

Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


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## AMCD300

Not tried the WG service as I live in Brussels, however my DB is fantastic. I did up the head temperature to 94 degrees on recommendation of Casa Espresso for the Charleston blend. Lots of flexibility with the machine but great consistency also. My grinder is good - lots of people speak badly of it but I find it good for me.


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## Craig-R872

Glad to hear that the grinder is doing ok. Most of the reviews I read for this grinder were very positive considering its price! Obviously it can't get compare to a Mazzer but to hear it's doing ok is encouraging.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Tapatalk


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## michaelg

I'm really liking the machine so far. The milk steaming isn't as powerful as my last machine (Fracino Cherub) but seems to get more consistent results so far. Really liking the volumetric shots as before I would wait for my shot to finish then steam milk but now I do both in parallel. I think I might buy a separate tamper though. It's much better than the usual plastic job that comes with machines but think I need something a bit nicer to make me happy!

Haven't messed about too much with temperature or pre-infusion time but I took the % power for pre-infusion down to 55% just to see what effect it has. Only had one shot after doing that so far and was pretty good!


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## Craig-R872

I keep hearing good things about this machine! I have just spoken to Sage and they say that my grinder should be with me Thursday or Friday! So, machines ready, i picked up some freshly roasted beans yesterday so should be a good weekend.

I did look at the tamper and that was the first thing I thought. Let me know what you change it for.

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## michaelg

Craig-R872 said:


> I keep hearing good things about this machine! I have just spoken to Sage and they say that my grinder should be with me Thursday or Friday! So, machines ready, i picked up some freshly roasted beans yesterday so should be a good weekend.
> 
> I did look at the tamper and that was the first thing I thought. Let me know what you change it for.
> 
> Sent from my SM-N910F using Tapatalk


I'm torn between a Torr sharp edge and one of the 'hockey puck' style like Push or Mahlgut. Although I struggle to get past the price of those. I've had two Torr ones before so I know they are good.

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## jamster

To be honest I thought that I'd replace the tamper but I love the simplicity of being able to dock it in the machine itself.

Had best yet coffee this morning - getting some way towards to the standards of many of the hipster coffee shops using very high end pressure profiling machines. Very pleased.

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## Craig-R872

Just as a heads up I ordered a sage knock box from mankind free delivery and a working 20% discount code. Works out to just under £16.

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## Craig-R872

Well my grinder came yesterday! Had a bit of a play with them made some not bad coffee. Need to get my head around all these settings lol. I did make the wife a latte which she enjoyed! The white glove service are calling Monday to arrange their visit. Hopefully they can steer me in the right direction.

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## DoubleShot

Craig-R872 said:


> Just as a heads up I ordered a sage knock box from mankind free delivery and a working 20% discount code. Works out to just under £16.


Received an email from Mankind this morning, 20% off orders this weekend (using code: GEORGE ) plus, receive a FREE Jack Black - The Best Things in Life are free kit (worth £23) when spending £45.

Earn 2% cashback if you go via Quidco site.


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## Coffee pot man

Hi All

I only recently joined the forum but over the last two days have read many items around the Sage dual boiler machine and to some extent understand the seemingly two different camps around the Sage machine and then the more traditional chrome and copper pipe work machines that some find appealing to look at and others do not but like the product at the end of the process. This was confusing initially, but surely if each produce a classy, tasty, velvet grand coffee what is the problem? Some like Fords, others Citroens and others Aston Martins but at the end of the day they get us from A to B.

Anyway I have ordered the Sage dual boiler at a good price from ao.com who are offering a 10% discount code in addition to their already discounted price and of course Sage's promotion of their grinder so roll on next week and let the espresso's flow.

Thanks so far to all you out there who through expressing opinions and great factual help from your experience who helped me and probably many others in getting through the maze of this addictive "hobby". Cheers.

I will let you know how I get on.


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## AMCD300

Glad to see you taking the plunge. As you say, machines divide opinion and you can't change that. All I know is that the DB is a great machine, at a good price and people are getting lifetime warranty deals that make it virtually risk free. Enjoy learning to use your DB and make sure you have some nicely rested beans ready to go...


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## Coffee pot man

AMCD300 said:


> Glad to see you taking the plunge. As you say, machines divide opinion and you can't change that. All I know is that the DB is a great machine, at a good price and people are getting lifetime warranty deals that make it virtually risk free. Enjoy learning to use your DB and make sure you have some nicely rested beans ready to go...


What do you mean by " nicely rested beans"?


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## Jason1wood

Most beans require around 10 days after roast date to be at their best.


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## Coffee pot man

Cheers, thanks for that.


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## Craig-R872

AMCD300 said:



> All I know is that the DB is a great machine, at a good price and people are getting lifetime warranty deals that make it virtually risk free..


Can you explain the lifetime warranty?

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## DoubleShot

Craig-R872 said:


> Can you explain the lifetime warranty?


Lakeland offer a lifetime 'satisfaction' guarantee. Each iteration seems to be worded more and more ambiguous. Some have put it to the test by returning something defective or faulty many years after purchase and had it refunded or exchanged but whether that will be the same result with regards to an electrical item, five or more years down the line is anyone's guess. It's still probably the best warranty to have on one of these machines.


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## AMCD300

^ what @DoubleShot said..... lol


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## jamster

One odd thing with my machine. It seems to switch itself off after about 15 mins of being left alone. Does this happen with anyone else's?


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## jlarkin

jamster said:


> One odd thing with my machine. It seems to switch itself off after about 15 mins of being left alone. Does this happen with anyone else's?


Yes but I think it's 20 minutes then goes into standby. It's part of a regulation on energy saving etc. Then turns off after 30 minutes, or something


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## DoubleShot

@jamster

There should be a setting that allows you to adjust the period before it goes into auto standby or auto off. Thought I read that the default setting was 2 or 3 hours rather than 15 mins though?


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## jamster

jlarkin said:


> Yes but I think it's 20 minutes then goes into standby. It's part of a regulation on energy saving etc. Then turns off after 30 minutes, or something


Mine is definitely much shorter. I'll have to give them a call and see how to make it longer. It's the difference between having it come on when I ought to get up versus it being on when I *actually* get up.


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## DoubleShot

Suppose this is where the heated group head on these machines which can bring it up to temperature in approximately 5 minutes comes in handy in these situations?


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## Craig-R872

jamster said:


> One odd thing with my machine. It seems to switch itself off after about 15 mins of being left alone. Does this happen with anyone else's?


It could be the power saving mode but that shouldn't activate in 15mins. According to the manual if no activity for 1hr it will enter power saving mode and pressing any button apart from the power button will turn the machine back on. If it is left for more the 4hrs it will turn itself completely off. I think page 20 of the manual tells you how to disable the auto off.


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## jlarkin

Craig-R872 said:


> It could be the power saving mode but that shouldn't activate in 15mins. According to the manual if no activity for 1hr it will enter power saving mode and pressing any button apart from the power button will turn the machine back on. If it is left for more the 4hrs it will turn itself completely off. I think page 20 of the manual tells you how to disable the auto off.


Does yours stay on an hour though?


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## Craig-R872

jlarkin said:


> Does yours stay on an hour though?


I have just switched it on now for you. Will report back in a little while.


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## jlarkin

Ok. I checked my manual is 20 minutes

Page 11:









Be wary of online because I think it's not the same in every region and may have changed


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## Craig-R872

It looks like the online manual is different to the actual manual.

It seems as though we do not have that option in our advanced menu.


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## jlarkin

Craig-R872 said:


> It looks like the online manual is different to the actual manual.
> 
> It seems as though we do not have that option in our advanced menu.


Yeah I've never found auto off settings? I think it's like @NickdeBug said yesterday this is related to the EU regulations on energy saving (was mentioned on the brexit thread)


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## Craig-R872

jlarkin said:


> Yeah I've never found auto off settings? I think it's like @NickdeBug said yesterday this is related to the EU regulations on energy saving (was mentioned on the brexit thread)


I don't think I would use it anyway. This was just another thing that I liked about this machine over the others I looked at was, the fast start up time.


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## jlarkin

I'd definitely make it stay on longer if I could.

I think I use more energy from turning it on and then not managing to use it and turning it on again a bit later to warm again and repeat, than if it stayed on longer. Maybe that's working from home problems though


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## Craig-R872

Why not call sage and ask then if there is any way to override the setting. I am sure I read somewhere that there is an engineers mode. Maybe it's an option there?


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## jlarkin

Craig-R872 said:


> Why not call sage and ask then if there is any way to override the setting. I am sure I read somewhere that there is an engineers mode. Maybe it's an option there?


I might try if I get some free moments but I'm pretty sure that they won't tell me on the phone. As, from what I understood, it's an EU regulation I don't think Sage would give out the info too willingly.

Maybe a friendly engineer visiting could be persuaded, makes sense it's perhaps an option which is inactive here to end users.


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## Craig-R872

I've got the white glove service in a couple of weeks I will see what I can coax out of him!


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## jlarkin

Haha that'd be cool, thanks!

That line alone sounds more like the start of a dodgy adult movie though .


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## Craig-R872

jlarkin said:


> Haha that'd be cool, thanks!
> 
> That line alone sounds more like the start of a dodgy adult movie though .


That would be rubber glove


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## DoubleShot

In the meantime, watch this video for a giggle on how NOT to get the best out of your Sage DB, lol!






With the soft background music, was half expecting this to turn into an adult movie at any moment!


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## Missy

If it took me 7 minutes to produce a coffee I think I'd top myself.

Did you miss the adult bit @DoubleShot ? That tamping was a whole hour of in and out fun.


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## DoubleShot

Do not try that (tamping) at home kids!


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## Craig-R872

DoubleShot said:


> Do not try that (tamping) at home kids!


It seemed as though he had to put it back in for a final twist just to finish off!

Nice ghost latte art tho!


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## DoubleShot

Loads of people do that twist at the end to polish the top of the puck but some knowledgable baristas say it's not necessary and in fact you might well be better off not doing it!


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## Missy

Tbh it was when he was shoving at it with his fingers I was really worried, especially as he was sharing it with someone else, couldn't he have used a spoon handle!?


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## Craig-R872

What weights are everyone dosing with the double basket? Mine tend to be around the 18.5g to 19.0g. At the moment I'm about 19.0g to 38.0g out.


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## michaelg

Craig-R872 said:


> What weights are everyone dosing with the double basket? Mine tend to be around the 18.5g to 19.0g. At the moment I'm about 19.0g to 38.0g out.


I recently switched to a VST basket (18g ridgeless) and am going with 18g in, 32g out or thereabouts. When using the stock basket I was doing about the same - at most 19g in as any more and it almost choked.


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## Craig-R872

michaelg said:


> I recently switched to a VST basket (18g ridgeless) and am going with 18g in, 32g out or thereabouts. When using the stock basket I was doing about the same - at most 19g in as any more and it almost choked.


Ok. I have just changed mine to volumetric rather than time. I have initially set it at 2oz for a double. Is this a good starting point?


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## michaelg

Craig-R872 said:


> Ok. I have just changed mine to volumetric rather than time. I have initially set it at 2oz for a double. Is this a good starting point?


I "calibrated" mine using the 2 shot menu option and stopping by weight output. I think there's another thread on how to do this but essentially you go to menu, two shot, hit the two shot button to start the shot and stop it when you're at the weight output you want and it remembers it for future two shots.


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## NickdeBug

You can set the single shot/double shot buttons based on time or volumetric (pump cycles).

Output based on Time will vary depending on grind/dose/bean

Volumetric (in theory) should provide a consistent amount of water through the basket and therefore produce similar size shots each use


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## Craig-R872

michaelg said:


> I "calibrated" mine using the 2 shot menu option and stopping by weight output. I think there's another thread on how to do this but essentially you go to menu, two shot, hit the two shot button to start the shot and stop it when you're at the weight output you want and it remembers it for future two shots.


That's how I've done it I perhaps should have made that clearer. I was asking if 2oz was a good starting weight.


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## michaelg

Craig-R872 said:


> That's how I've done it I perhaps should have made that clearer. I was asking if 2oz was a good starting weight.


I go with around 1.6 times the input weight but will let it run to 2x on occasion. Go by what tastes nice with the coffee you're using though. I work in grams so no idea about oz.


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## Craig-R872

Yeah in work in grams but most of the info I've been reading and watching has been ounces lol. 1oz is circa 28ml /grams.

It's certainly a learning experience.


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## AMCD300

The aiming point is a 1-2 ratio of grounds to shot weight so it should not matter what units you use...then adjust for taste.


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## Craig-R872

Have been getting some really tasty coffee dosing at 18.5g stock basket and pretty much stock settings. I think it maybe time to have a play with temperatures and pre infusion.


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## Dallah

I'm hardly new as I have had mine for over a year (bought it used). I switched to VST baskets but truthfully it was only an incremental improvement as the OEM baskets are very high quality. Definitely switch the volumetric to Flow so you can measure grams in and out, it makes all the difference. Replace the tamper, I have used a MBK Heft since the beginning of this machine and you could not pay me to go back. I will be upgrading that to a PUSH when my first edition is delivered in July.

Preinfusion is currently set at 55% and 10 secs. I think it makes a world of difference. Temperature gets adjusted to the bean. Beans which are hard to extract get bumped up a degree (last years Rocko Mountain being a case in point).

As it takes only 5 mins to get up to temp and I will generally leave it for 10 mins just to be anal about it, I don't worry about it turning off. It does turn off after 20 mins but it cools slowly, so if you turn it back on in the first hour you are back up to temp in maybe 2-3 minutes. Have quick few secs of a manual shot to warm up the PF and jobs a good'un.

Warranty service is fantastic. I was having issues with leaks, so Sage swapped mine for a new unit even though it was almost six months out of warranty.

No regrets. If I can help just let me know.


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## AMCD300

+1 to all the above. The DB is a fantastic machine and easy to configure to give you lots of control.


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## Craig-R872

I back flush with just water at the end of everyday. How often is it necessary to back flush with something like cafiza? I have just bought the powder cafiza so would it be more beneficial just to use some in every flush?


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## DoubleShot

Don't think it's a good idea to backflush with Cafiza etc too regularly, certainly not daily. If you're backflushing with water daily, probably using chemicals no more than once per month should be sufficient I'd have thought? I've read it's usually a good idea to lubricate the cams after a chemical backflush although not sure how easy that is to do on a Sage DB?


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## garydyke1

DoubleShot said:


> Don't think it's a good idea to backflush with Cafiza etc too regularly, certainly not daily. If you're backflushing with water daily, probably using chemicals no more than once per month should be sufficient I'd have thought? I've read it's usually a good idea to lubricate the cams after a chemical backflush although not sure how easy that is to do on a Sage DB?


The reference to cams etc is e61-type group specific . The Sage is electronically / solenoid operated - there wouldnt be much for you to access & lubricate easily,

I wouldnt chemical backflush more often than once every couple of weeks, unless youre hammering dozens of shots out every day. Dropping the screen and giving a scrub every few days is more useful IMO


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## Dallah

garydyke1 said:


> The reference to cams etc is e61-type group specific . The Sage is electronically / solenoid operated - there wouldnt be much for you to access & lubricate easily,
> 
> I wouldnt chemical backflush more often than once every couple of weeks, unless youre hammering dozens of shots out every day. Dropping the screen and giving a scrub every few days is more useful IMO


When I drop the screen every weekend I give it, the dispersion plate and PF a 10 soak in Puly Caff and then a rinse with clean water until they don't feel slippery any longer.

Water only backflush each night and chemical backflush twice a month.


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## DoubleShot

Does an e61 IMS 200um competition shower screen and cafelat silicone gasket fit the Sage DB?


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## AMCD300

I backflush with water only daily and with powder once every two weeks or so...when I remember normally... I have not removed my shower screen yet though.....thanks for the reminder!


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## Craig-R872

DoubleShot said:


> Does an e61 IMS 200um competition shower screen and cafelat silicone gasket fit the Sage DB?


I have been looking into this. The only reference I can find is that the gagia 55m ims screen fits. I'm not sure the gasket will fit tho.


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## DoubleShot

Any Sage DB owners with a set of digital callipers able to measure the stock shower screen?


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## Craig-R872




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## DoubleShot

Right, I shall try measuring my IMS shower screen, although it won't be as accurate as I don't have digital callipers. Need to purchase myself one like yours...


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## NickdeBug

Are you pulling through a Sage DB these days then DS?

Thought that you were a Brewtus man


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## garydyke1

You need a Nuova Simonelli brass block in place of the Sage dispersion block to allow an IMS screen to fit . I might have the whole thing lying around somewhere - dont use it as it was a PITA to keep clean : water flushes left the screen covered in grounds and oils, standard Sage much easier to live with


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## DoubleShot

That's a shame as using an IMS 200um competition screen on a Brewtus has been a great upgrade over the stock one imo. Much easier to keep clean too. Bonus! 

Thanks for clearing that up Gary.


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## garydyke1

I'll have another play later . If I want rid of it someone can have both for 15 quid posted


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## NickdeBug

Bargain!


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## PPapa

NickdeBug said:


> Are you pulling through a Sage DB these days then DS?
> 
> Thought that you were a Brewtus man


You will never know... I was curious too, but who knows what @DoubleShot is thinking







).


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## DoubleShot

Doesn't hurt to be clued up on a variety of machines, lol!


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## garydyke1

Ive run out of water so wont have time to play more. My only shot with the IMS (using a naked) showed much more of a doughnut extraction than the sage screen, possibly due to the NS brass block more than the screen itself. ...and the puck was stuck solid to the screen which never happens anymore......oh and coffee ended up around the outside of the shower screen into the group gasket grrrrr.

I remember now why I switched back to stock sage ! They researched their group configuration it seems.


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## AMCD300

A lot of people criticize the Sage DB and say that this and that is better on other machines. Once again it shows the amount of detail Sage (Breville Australia really, where they know how to make coffee...) put into the design. People love to tinker but sometimes the combination just works, and works very well.


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## arellim

I see many trooping on with the Smart Grinder- would that be the next area to upgrade or quite happy?


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## AMCD300

arellim said:


> I see many trooping on with the Smart Grinder- would that be the next area to upgrade or quite happy?


At the moment I am pressing on with it as it seems to be delivering good grounds for my DB. Is it noisy and does it sound like it struggles a little? - yes I suppose it does. Does it clump? - yes it does. Is my FREE Smart Grinder Pro good enough for now? - yes it is.

If it breaks I would not buy another, but only because for a little more money I know I would be tempted to try a Mazzer or similar.

I am not rushing to upgrade just yet as for that to happen I would need an 'expert' to bring a 'proper' grinder over to my house and convince me that the difference it would make to my shots (currently only 2-3 a day throughput) was so great that I would catch upgradeitis and would not be able to wait for the SGP to break. But as that is not going to happen, and as my wife thinks I have spent too much on this endeavour already, I will have to rely on a 'favourable' MTBF...(mean time before failure).


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## Craig-R872

Exactly my thoughts too. If this grinder was as bad as people have made out I would have moved this on and purchased a "proper" grinder, but as AMCD300 has said until either this breaks or I am shown and have tasted a better grinder I will gladly keep it.


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## Craig-R872

For me the beauty of this machine has got to be the warm up time! You want a coffee of whatever guise 10 minutes later your sitting down enjoying a excellent drink. ☕


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## michaelg

Craig-R872 said:


> For me the beauty of this machine has got to be the warm up time! You want a coffee of whatever guise 10 minutes later your sitting down enjoying a excellent drink. ☕


Completely agree. I'm always struggling to get out of the house on time and without its fast heat-up time there's a lot of days I'd be heading out uncaffeinated and grumpy!

It may not look as 'sexy' as the shiny competitors but it makes great coffee, without a long wait or creative flushing etc and has lots of room for tinkering about with stuff if you like but is easy for my wife to make a coffee when I'm out without me leaving a detailed instruction booklet so it's a great buy as far as I'm concerned.


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## DoubleShot

So many happy new Sage DB owners (also one not so happy) thanks to Amazon, Lakeland and John Lewis knocking a large chunk off the rrp on this machine.

Who's using the supplied water filter cartridge?


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## Craig-R872

DoubleShot said:


> So many happy new Sage DB owners (also one not so happy) thanks to Amazon, Lakeland and John Lewis knocking a large chunk off the rrp on this machine.
> 
> Who's using the supplied water filter cartridge?


I've got the filter installed but using waitrose/volvic water.


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## PPapa

DoubleShot said:


> So many happy new Sage DB owners (also one not so happy) thanks to Amazon, Lakeland and John Lewis knocking a large chunk off the rrp on this machine.
> 
> Who's using the supplied water filter cartridge?


Wait, who's unhappy?


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## michaelg

DoubleShot said:


> So many happy new Sage DB owners (also one not so happy) thanks to Amazon, Lakeland and John Lewis knocking a large chunk off the rrp on this machine.
> 
> Who's using the supplied water filter cartridge?


I'm using it and also Brita filter our tap water which actually to my taste buds is almost identical to Volvic.

What I'm curious about is if anyone (particularly those in Glasgow) use the filter jugs Has Bean sell to filter and remineralise your water and if so are they worth it.


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## DoubleShot

PPapa said:


> Wait, who's unhappy?


jtldurnall, post #191 here


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## PPapa

DoubleShot said:


> jtldurnall, post #191 here


Ah that's true. Not truly machine's problem, though.


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## Craig-R872

PPapa said:


> Ah that's true. Not truly machine's problem, though.


Can't really see a problem there.


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## DoubleShot

OCD tool used with a Breville 920 aka Sage DB.






Certainly looks like it does something!


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## Mrboots2u

Hard to tell with spouts

Wait there actually no extraction to see


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## Craig-R872

Hey guys anyone tried Rave Chatswood Blend? Just had a flat white it seemed to dial in easy enough and produced a lovely tasting drink. I am still on factory settings for temp and pi anyone tried this coffee using different settings?


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## Dallah

DoubleShot said:


> OCD tool used with a Breville 920 aka Sage DB.


He's using a Breville (Sage to us) grinder and the included tamper and his first upgrade is to add the OCD spinny thingy?


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## DoubleShot

Crazy, right?!


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## jlarkin

Quick question, probably stupid question.

I can't get a photo now but could later on if it's not obvious. I just wanted to double check about the shower screen and dispersion plate.

It kind of seems like they could only sensibly go one way round so that the shower screen middle fits into the dispersion plate. That seemed to make sense but I had a nagging feeling it may have been the other way round. From a quick search I couldn't find a photo for reference, does anybody have any thoughts?


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## Craig-R872

jlarkin said:


> Quick question, probably stupid question.
> 
> I can't get a photo now but could later on if it's not obvious. I just wanted to double check about the shower screen and dispersion plate.
> 
> It kind of seems like they could only sensibly go one way round so that the shower screen middle fits into the dispersion plate. That seemed to make sense but I had a nagging feeling it may have been the other way round. From a quick search I couldn't find a photo for reference, does anybody have any thoughts?


It should be the "sensible" way.


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## Drusy

jamster said:


> To be honest I thought that I'd replace the tamper but I love the simplicity of being able to dock it in the machine itself.


I found that the tamper with the machine was just too small - it always left an uncompressed ridge at the edge of the basket which you had to fiddle with with the razor tool. With a 58.5 tamper you can toss the razor tool.


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## jamster

Dallah said:


> I switched to VST baskets but truthfully it was only an incremental improvement as the OEM baskets are very high quality.


I compared the stock basket to my VST and it looked identical. Wouldn't surprise me if they were made by VST but just not badged.


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## Craig-R872

jamster said:


> I compared the stock basket to my VST and it looked identical. Wouldn't surprise me if they were made by VST but just not badged.


What size basket did you swap too. The sage are 20g.


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## Deejaysuave

So anyone changed the pre infusion time or temp yet? I upped it to 10secs but couldn't get on with it so put it back to default. Temp wise I've upped to 94 degrees.


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## urbanbumpkin

Pre infusion set at 55 for 7 secs worked well for me


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## AMCD300

65 for 7 seconds an 94 degrees is my thing..


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## garydyke1

jamster said:


> I compared the stock basket to my VST and it looked identical. Wouldn't surprise me if they were made by VST but just not badged.


They are not


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## AMCD300

garydyke1 said:


> They are not


Definitely not VST, but very good all the same. Not much difference at all in fact.


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## Craig-R872

So for those who have changed pre infusion settings what differences did you note?


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## michaelg

AMCD300 said:


> Definitely not VST, but very good all the same. Not much difference at all in fact.


Yup they look similar but they are wider from my experience at least in terms of fit with my tamper. But agreed they are better than most stock baskets I've seen.


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## NickdeBug

Craig-R872 said:


> So for those who have changed pre infusion settings what differences did you note?


a more controlled pour and higher extraction = fewer sour notes


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## Craig-R872

NickdeBug said:


> a more controlled pour and higher extraction = fewer sour notes


What were your settings to find this?


----------



## NickdeBug

60s at 66% pressure.

Starts at about 7bar and slowly reduces during the pour. Apparently this is a similar profile to a lever.

Typical 17g -> 40g in 45s


----------



## Craig-R872

NickdeBug said:


> 60s at 66% pressure.
> 
> Starts at about 7bar and slowly reduces during the pour. Apparently this is a similar profile to a lever.
> 
> Typical 17g -> 40g in 45s


I have heard about this setting but yet to try it. Must give it ago.


----------



## Craig-R872

NickdeBug said:


> 60s at 66% pressure.
> 
> Starts at about 7bar and slowly reduces during the pour. Apparently this is a similar profile to a lever.
> 
> Typical 17g -> 40g in 45s


Did you alter your grind setting at all. I have just given this ago coffee tasted great. Although my pressure reached about 5 and stayed there.


----------



## NickdeBug

you could tighten grind, up dose, or just increase pressure by 1% at a time until it hits the spot.

If coffee is tasting great I wouldn't mess with it too much


----------



## jamster

michaelg said:


> Yup they look similar but they are wider from my experience at least in terms of fit with my tamper. But agreed they are better than most stock baskets I've seen.


I will defer to you guys. I am comparing to a 20g VST to a bit difficult to check size, but even the milling marks on the aluminium are identical. VST "inspired" perhaps.


----------



## jlarkin

So what temp are people using generally? Anybody change with da beans?


----------



## AMCD300

jlarkin said:


> So what temp are people using generally? Anybody change with da beans?


I am at 94 degrees, both as this is the temperature people seem to recommend and it matches the tasting notes from Casa Espresso that accompanied my Charlestown Blend beans. Seems to work for me, although I have not conducted tests to see if any other temperature produces better tasting shots. I would try 94 and see if that works for you.


----------



## Craig-R872

I have mine also at 94. I have pulled two shots at 93 and 94 side by side and can say that I didn't really taste anything different. I suppose for the test might be to pull 2 shots but with a larger temperature difference.


----------



## madrashot

I'm really struggling with it to be honest. I need to book in the White Glove service. I just don't seem to "get it" - the 30 seconds pre-built in timer should take away one of the variables, leaving me to only work out the grind size & tamp, but yeah, not really enjoying it at the moment. Milk is good though.....

Trying simple espresso made with fresh beans, and....well, not good!


----------



## Craig-R872

madrashot said:


> I'm really struggling with it to be honest. I need to book in the White Glove service. I just don't seem to "get it" - the 30 seconds pre-built in timer should take away one of the variables, leaving me to only work out the grind size & tamp, but yeah, not really enjoying it at the moment. Milk is good though.....
> 
> Trying simple espresso made with fresh beans, and....well, not good!


Are you weighing your ground coffee before you start? If so what are you weights. Are you weighing the shot out? If so what is your weight in the 30 secs?

Yeah worth booking the white glove.


----------



## Mrboots2u

madrashot said:


> I'm really struggling with it to be honest. I need to book in the White Glove service. I just don't seem to "get it" - the 30 seconds pre-built in timer should take away one of the variables, leaving me to only work out the grind size & tamp, but yeah, not really enjoying it at the moment. Milk is good though.....
> 
> Trying simple espresso made with fresh beans, and....well, not good!


Plus where are beans from and what are you grinding them with


----------



## Craig-R872

Mrboots2u said:


> Plus where are beans from and what are you grinding them with


Yeah I should have asked that but did take it he was using his smart grinder.


----------



## madrashot

Hey - yeah, sorry should have said. Getting beans from coffeebeanshop.co.uk & using the free Smart Grinder Pro.

The pressure gauge is always in the right zone, so I presume I'm at least doing that right... I'm using the dosing razor thing to make sure i've got the correct amount of grind.

I then proceed to make a coffee, and end up tasting it, losing the will to live, and making a tea!

Seriously though, grind size, grind amount (ie razor), tamp itself. Pressure looks ok. Maybe I just need to play with the grind size a bit more.....


----------



## Mrboots2u

@madrashot Are you weighing the output tho ? What is your dose in grams - coffee made in grams

What are the roasters notes for the coffee

What are you getting ( not sweet ? Too strong ? Bitter ? )


----------



## madrashot

Hi - I'm not weighing the coffee... I (perhaps naively?) thought that by using the razor to make sure i've not got too much/little coffee, and making sure the pressure was OK, that would be enough. It seems that maybe I am wrong....

It seems too bitter...

I've got some new beans today, so will give the whole thing another go tonight. I love the machine - I just wish I could do it justice









Thanks for your replies though, much appreciated.


----------



## NickdeBug

For the razor to touch the coffee post-tamp I would probably have to put about 22g in the basket, instead of the 17g that I actually use.

I'm sure that the razor does have a use, just not for making good coffee. It's the one feature of the Sage DB that I would regard as useless.

Try weighing in ground coffee and weighing out espresso as Boots suggests.


----------



## Mrboots2u

madrashot said:


> Hi - I'm not weighing the coffee... I (perhaps naively?) thought that by using the razor to make sure i've not got too much/little coffee, and making sure the pressure was OK, that would be enough. It seems that maybe I am wrong....
> 
> It seems too bitter...
> 
> I've got some new beans today, so will give the whole thing another go tonight. I love the machine - I just wish I could do it justice
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for your replies though, much appreciated.


Weight your coffee dose in > weigh your espresso out

Note time- do not brew to a time - brew to a weight out .. and the taste report back

Without knowing whats going in and coming out you are just guessing why your coffee is not tasty and guessing what adjustments need to be made

Your current process is making bad coffee , try a new process ( one that 90 percent of us use succesfully )

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios

http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-analyzing-dose/

http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-understanding-yield/

http://www.baristahustle.com/analyzing-espresso-recipes-strength/

http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-time/


----------



## garydyke1

Prime candidate for training : )


----------



## jlarkin

madrashot said:


> I've got some new beans today, so will give the whole thing another go tonight.


Depending on when they were roasted; you may need to consider this. It's not universally agreed but often people say resting the beans for 5 days after roasting is best for brewing espresso


----------



## Craig-R872

Tried the razor once and it when back into the machine/bin. Good advice above. Weigh your dose.


----------



## classicMike

I put 18gm of Coffee compass Cherry Cherry in, and get about 40 gm out when I stop the extraction when the scales hit 36gm after @ 30 secs. I use the manual button and the coffee is bloody lovely!


----------



## Craig-R872

classicMike said:


> I put 18gm of Coffee compass Cherry Cherry in, and get about 40 gm out when I stop the extraction when the scales hit 36gm after @ 30 secs. I use the manual button and the coffee is bloody lovely!


Are you using stock basket? I've been thinking about swapping to a vst.


----------



## DoubleShot

VST is certainly the way up go, all the pro's seem to use them!


----------



## classicMike

I'm using the stock basket. Never had such good results as this.


----------



## NickdeBug

Craig-R872 said:


> Are you using stock basket? I've been thinking about swapping to a vst.


Stock basket is absolutely fine unless you are determined to spend another £25.

VST basket is arguably harder to achieve best results and the incremental gain when you do would probably go unnoticed by the majority of people (I definitely include myself in that group!)


----------



## Craig-R872

NickdeBug said:


> Stock basket is absolutely fine unless you are determined to spend another £25.
> 
> VST basket is arguably harder to achieve best results and the incremental gain when you do would probably go unnoticed by the majority of people (I definitely include myself in that group!)


It wasn't for quality I was thinking more about lowering the dose to a 15g or 18g. The standard basket is a 20g I believe.


----------



## NickdeBug

18g is fine in the stock basket

Agreed, you would need a smaller basket such as the 15g VST if you want to dose much lower. I use stock with 17g no problem.


----------



## NickdeBug

Interesting discussion here

Aussies like their big shots though!


----------



## Craig-R872

I'm finding that 20.5 works best for me too. Have tried dosing to 18g but can't seem to get the shot correct. If I dose at 18g my basket is virtually empty and when tamped the tamper falls way into the basket. I might try and coarsen the grind perhaps any thoughts?


----------



## Craig-R872

I'm not the best at latte art only had the machine 3 weeks! But 10 mins from start to finish (including clean up). This is why I chose this machine.

Raves Chatswood Blend and the Mrs said it tasted lovely! ☕


----------



## AMCD300

Looks great - and as you say, such a good machine the DB... Glad you are liking it.


----------



## GlennV

I tried the stock basket for the first time this morning. It's slightly smaller than an 18g VST (ie the tamped depth is a little higher) and the shot time was 5s longer for the same dose and same grind. Perfectly tasty though. I would guess that 17g in the stock basket would be roughly equivalent to 18g in the 18g VST, and agree with others that new owners shouldn't feel the need to rush out and buy new baskets.


----------



## Jakey66

Would I regret investing in the sage oracle over the dual boiler? Newbie wanting a good quality coffee, any help appreciated.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Jakey66 said:


> Would I regret investing in the sage oracle over the dual boiler? Newbie wanting a good quality coffee, any help appreciated.


It depends what you're after. I'd go Sage DB any day of the week with a good grinder. But that's just me.


----------



## Craig-R872

If you've got the counter space to have a separate grinder then I would echo what urbanbumpkin has said. If sage are doing the free grinder and white glove with the dual boiler this will get you up and running making decent coffee. Plus the money you save between the db and Oracle will get you a better grinder if you feel that it is called for.


----------



## Jakey66

Craig-R872 said:


> If you've got the counter space to have a separate grinder then I would echo what urbanbumpkin has said. If sage are doing the free grinder and white glove with the dual boiler this will get you up and running making decent coffee. Plus the money you save between the db and Oracle will get you a better grinder if you feel that it is called for.


Would there be a noticeable difference in the quality of the coffee between the two machines, using the same beans by a barista?


----------



## Craig-R872

If you used the same beans ground on the same grinder then I would have thought the results should be identical.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Craig-R872 said:


> If you used the same beans ground on the same grinder then I would have thought the results should be identical.


Unless your using some of the features to create low pressure shots on the db for example


----------



## Craig-R872

Mrboots2u said:


> Unless your using some of the features to create low pressure shots on the db for example


Mr boots I'm not clued up on the Oracle that much. Is it not that customisable as the dual boiler then?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Craig-R872 said:


> Mr boots I'm not clued up on the Oracle that much. Is it not that customisable as the dual boiler then?


Nope it isn't ....

Oracle has more or less a fixed dose ( unless you go faffing around with little screws ) it doesn't have the ability to set long pre infusion times like the normal db . Weak part of the oracle is the grinder . Tamping is good , milk is really good .


----------



## Craig-R872

Mrboots2u said:


> Nope it isn't ....
> 
> Oracle has more or less a fixed dose ( unless you go faffing around with little screws ) it doesn't have the ability to set long pre infusion times like the normal db . Weak part of the oracle is the grinder . Tamping is good , milk is really good .


Ooh glad I chose the db. I kind of took it for granted that the settings was pretty much the same.


----------



## Jakey66

What cleaning products do people use to keep their dual boilers shiny?


----------



## Spy

I have a Sage DTP and I use Method Stainless Steel cleaner. Widely available from most supermarkets.

Spray it on the cloth, not directly on the machine, and it comes up beautifully :







:


----------



## michaelg

Spy said:


> I have a Sage DTP and I use Method Stainless Steel cleaner. Widely available from most supermarkets.
> 
> Spray it on the cloth, not directly on the machine, and it comes up beautifully :
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :


Thanks been looking for something like this. One of the ones I bought literally smelled like vomit and didn't even clean well. I've been using Green Shield wiped until now which are OK but not flawless.


----------



## Dallah

I must be a slob. A quick wipe down with a damp cloth followed by a brief wipe with microfiber cloth is enough to suit me. Then again I'm stuffed away in a dark corner of the kitchen.


----------



## jlarkin

Dallah said:


> I must be a slob. A quick wipe down with a damp cloth followed by a brief wipe with microfiber cloth is enough to suit me. Then again I'm stuffed away in a dark corner of the kitchen.


I do this, always looks good to me


----------



## R6GYY

Dallah said:


> I must be a slob. A quick wipe down with a damp cloth followed by a brief wipe with microfiber cloth is enough to suit me. Then again I'm stuffed away in a dark corner of the kitchen.


Ditto. Oops just realised this a DB thread. I'm a DTP owner, hope you don't mind me butting in!


----------



## jamster

Likewise. The stainless steel cleaner was great on my old Cherub. The DB being mainly brushed metal doesn't seem to show up streaks as much as the shiny finish on the cherub.


----------



## Craig-R872

A quick blast from the steam wand into a microfiber cloth then wipe over the machine for a streak free finish.


----------



## madrashot

Dallah said:


> I'm hardly new as I have had mine for over a year (bought it used). I switched to VST baskets but truthfully it was only an incremental improvement as the OEM baskets are very high quality. Definitely switch the volumetric to Flow so you can measure grams in and out, it makes all the difference. Replace the tamper, I have used a MBK Heft since the beginning of this machine and you could not pay me to go back. I will be upgrading that to a PUSH when my first edition is delivered in July.
> 
> Preinfusion is currently set at 55% and 10 secs. I think it makes a world of difference. Temperature gets adjusted to the bean. Beans which are hard to extract get bumped up a degree (last years Rocko Mountain being a case in point).
> 
> As it takes only 5 mins to get up to temp and I will generally leave it for 10 mins just to be anal about it, I don't worry about it turning off. It does turn off after 20 mins but it cools slowly, so if you turn it back on in the first hour you are back up to temp in maybe 2-3 minutes. Have quick few secs of a manual shot to warm up the PF and jobs a good'un.
> 
> Warranty service is fantastic. I was having issues with leaks, so Sage swapped mine for a new unit even though it was almost six months out of warranty.
> 
> No regrets. If I can help just let me know.


Thanks so much for the info - very helpful (esp the switching to flow - makes so much sense).

Cheers!


----------



## Dallah

madrashot said:


> Thanks so much for the info - very helpful (esp the switching to flow - makes so much sense).
> 
> Cheers!


Glad I could help. Despite what SWMBO says, most things I say/write make sense! Well perhaps not. I thought this was England's year.

Mynd Cymru


----------



## madrashot

Dallah said:


> Well perhaps not. I thought this was England's year.
> 
> Mynd Cymru


I know, I know.....


----------



## Craig-R872

With the inactivity in this thread I can only presume that all us db owners are constantly making super tasty coffee. (I know I am)!☕


----------



## jamster

Yes - have signed up to the hasbean subscription an am able to taste along. Loving the DB - it's not as pretty as the more traditional machines but it makes sublime espresso.


----------



## Craig-R872

Currently on Casa Espresso Charlestown. That's tasting lovely. Had a few bags from Rave also and they have been good.


----------



## madrashot

My milk definitely has good and ok days, but now I've got my beans sorted I'm much happier with my regular coffees now. Still need to book in the white glove service though, just haven't got round to it yet...


----------



## Daveuk64

Hi,

New to the forum but am interested in the Sage DB and Grinder Pro (Amazon interest free).

Are the Sage's still performing well and do they offer good flexibility to 'play'?

Cheers

Dave


----------



## Mrboots2u

Great machine - the Grinder is the weak link in that package


----------



## AMCD300

Mrboots2u said:


> Great machine - the Grinder is the weak link in that package


As Boots said, although...

The DB is still working its magic for me - love the machine and when matched with great coffee it does the business. The grinder may not be the best (according to those who know these things) but for me, as it is my first 'proper grinder' it is good enough to start with. It is noisy-ish, it does clump a bit but it does the job well enough for me. If you get a free grinder and can't afford an upgrade straight away it will be sufficient to get you hooked. Use it while you save for something better.


----------



## CrashEd

Great thread.

New to the forum and after one of these myself.

Does anyone know of own of any good offers on these at the moment?

Cheers,

Ed


----------



## AMCD300

CrashEd said:


> Great thread.
> 
> New to the forum and after one of these myself.
> 
> Does anyone know of own of any good offers on these at the moment?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ed


Hi Ed - most people seem to go to either Lakeland or John Lewis for both price matching and lifetime warranties. Try there.

Andy


----------



## Dylan

Another member managed to pick one up new from ebay for under £600 the other day, so worth keeping an eye there as well. Warranty wont be quite as good as JL or Lakeland, but neither really offer lifetime warranties.


----------



## Sadler89

Hello, that was me turned up yesterday really liking it. Was new aswell couldbt believe it never been unboxed guess i got really lucky there

Also went for the sage grinder (sorry dylan) chose it basically because it has settings in it that will make it easier for newbies I believe. so I thought I'd get to know what I'm doing on this before making my mind up on a more expensive machine also give me time to save up again after buying the machine


----------



## CrashEd

AMCD300 said:


> Hi Ed - most people seem to go to either Lakeland or John Lewis for both price matching and lifetime warranties. Try there.
> 
> Andy


Many thanks Andy. I might go with Lakeland if I pay full price. What's the deal with the lifetime warranty with them and JL? Sounds too good to be true!

Wow, £600 for a DB is a fantastic price, even without a warranty.


----------



## Dylan

Sadler89 said:


> Hello, that was me turned up yesterday really liking it. Was new aswell couldbt believe it never been unboxed guess i got really lucky there
> 
> Also went for the sage grinder (sorry dylan) chose it basically because it has settings in it that will make it easier for newbies I believe. so I thought I'd get to know what I'm doing on this before making my mind up on a more expensive machine also give me time to save up again after buying the machine


The Sage Grinder isn't terrible, and considering you are just starting out you will be able to think of upgrading if you get to the stage where you want that little bit more!

There is a strong law of 'diminishing returns' with coffee grinders. Your Sage will get you 90% of the way there and you will have to spend many times more to eek out that last 10%!


----------



## Craig-R872

CrashEd said:


> What's the deal with the lifetime warranty with them and JL? Sounds too good to be true!


Here's the link to lakleland guarantee. I emailed them re their lifetime grantee before I purchased my db off them. They quoted saying that they have never had a lifetime guarantee but a lifetime satisfaction guarantee. The actually email I received off them I think is in the other thread about the sage dual boiler.

http://www.lakeland.co.uk/info/LakelandGuarantee


----------



## CrashEd

Craig-R872 said:


> Here's the link to lakleland guarantee. I emailed them re their lifetime grantee before I purchased my db off them. They quoted saying that they have never had a lifetime guarantee but a lifetime satisfaction guarantee. The actually email I received off them I think is in the other thread about the sage dual boiler.
> 
> http://www.lakeland.co.uk/info/LakelandGuarantee


Thanks Craig


----------



## Craig-R872

Consistently great results! Rave mocha java, lovely as both latte and long black.

Think my latte art is getting better too!☕


----------



## Betanumeric

Wow Craig thats a great photo. And amazingly similar to my kitchen. Machine in the corner. Red and cream check tiles behind. Classy


----------



## smidster09

Obviously buzzing that I am now the proud owner of a DB! Turned up this morning so obviously been messing around loads this morning, just using some oldish (month old) rave beans. Had a fresh batch turn up today also (keeping the postman busy) so looking forward to putting them through next week.

So far I've only played around with the temp really. Been playing around with grind size and dose weight to get the pressure around 8-9 bar. Really impressed with the steam on this machine, much improved on the gaggia, instantly better latte art!! Looking forward to new recipes and playing around with everything!!


----------



## Craig-R872

I'm sure you will have loads of fun playing with all the settings. Loads of useful information about to get the best from this machine. My best upgrade so far has to be a better tamper. Have fun!


----------



## Betanumeric

smidster09 said:


> Obviously buzzing that I am now the proud owner of a DB!


I'm buzzing today too but it's more because I've made six coffees so far today


----------



## AMCD300

Betanumeric said:


> I'm buzzing today too but it's more because I've made six coffees so far today


Fantastic...


----------



## AdzJackson

Anddd I'm in, a moment of madness in John Lewis earlier led to me arriving home with the Dual Boiler! Only really set it up and pulled one shot so far, but it was instantly better than my Classic! Could taste so much more depth in the shot, really impressed seeing as I haven't played with any settings yet









Adam


----------



## peld

New DB owner checking in. Bought mine from MatBat - set mine up last night. More of a match for my Super Jolly than my Gaggia Classic.









Two quick Qs:

- What after market tamper are people using? Do you need 58.4mm for a better fit than the stock one? (I have another 58mm too that isnt a perfect fit)

- More leftfield - I have a naked PF from my Classic - it seems to fit though havent put coffee in it - has anybody done the same?


----------



## Asgross

peld said:


> New DB owner checking in. Bought mine from MatBat - set mine up last night. More of a match for my Super Jolly than my Gaggia Classic.
> 
> View attachment 27880
> 
> 
> Two quick Qs:
> 
> - What after market tamper are people using? Do you need 58.4mm for a better fit than the stock one? (I have another 58mm too that isnt a perfect fit)
> 
> - More leftfield - I have a naked PF from my Classic - it seems to fit though havent put coffee in it - has anybody done the same?


Mine has a static pressure of 10.5 bar

Has anyone either reduced the brew pressure through the opv?

Or disabled the brew cut out switch engaged by the hot water switch to alter brew pressure ?


----------



## smidster09

Asgross said:


> Mine has a static pressure of 10.5 bar
> 
> Has anyone either reduced the brew pressure through the opv?
> 
> Or disabled the brew cut out switch engaged by the hot water switch to alter brew pressure ?


You can find plenty of info throughout the forums. The quick answers are:

1. 58.4 tamper works a treat.

2. Classic naked PF does work just doesn't line up straight. Just make sure it's locked in good and proper.

3. You can reduce the brew pressure by setting the preinfusion time to 60 secs and lower the pump pressure percentage to whatever you want. All available in the manual.


----------



## Asgross

smidster09 said:


> You can find plenty of info throughout the forums. The quick answers are:
> 
> 3. You can reduce the brew pressure by setting the preinfusion time to 60 secs and lower the pump pressure percentage to whatever you want. All available in the manual.


Thanks but this would not give me the degree of control over pressure (profile) during the shot that i would like to play around with -theres a related discussion above

I have overnight disconnected the internal water / brew micro cut out switch , and now pressure is completely controllable / infinity variable throughout the entire shot

But of course as good as this machine is , this may just mean this isn't the right machine for me.


----------



## 7877

So I've had my Sage DB since October 2014 and no issues until recently. Hence I've hardly been in the forum I've just been too busy just drinking coffee and not obsessing about the machines, which is nice









Anyway recently I've had the pressure gauge and LCD start to condense up, a little leak from under the control area beneath the on switch, and then the steam boiler is overheating.....it just gets hotter and hotter, then steam comes out the release valve into the drip tray, starts to sound weird and I switch it off. It takes an age to then cool down.

I contacted Lakeland and then sage who basically sent me back instructions to descale, saying in UK they would recommend doing it every 4-6 weeks. that seems a bit excessive, but then again I've followed the messages on the lcd and look where I've ended up.

Does it sound right to you guys that all this needs is a descale? Seems almost too simple. Not done it yet as I ran out of puly caff descaler, just waiting for more to arrive.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I don't de-scale that often. Probably every 3 months. It depends what water is going in it.


----------



## Asgross

Any opinion on more frequently back flushing sage DB with powder detergent?

Im used to back flushing my old gaggia with puly, daily

I back flush sage with just water daily

Seems odd to wait for machine to add the sage tablet ( 200 shots?)


----------



## jlarkin

I think daily is perhaps too often but that 200 shots is too many. I generally do it about once a week with quite light usage. I don't have any facts or references to back that up, just my thoughts and way I do it...


----------



## Mark-Sdb

Does anyone know the length of the screw that goes through the centre of the shower screen in to the group head on a Sage Dual boiler?

Mine has sheared off in the GH and I'm just out of warranty, so looking to drill it out of the group head and replace with my own. Thanks.


----------



## Bladevane

Mark-Sdb, it's an M5 countersunk set screw 15 mm long.


----------



## nickdc

Hi all,

I'm obviously late to the party as I see most posts are 2 or 3 years old, but I've only just bought a Sage DB and keen to get the most out of it. Graduating from a Gaggia Classic that ran almost daily for about 20 years; probably could, and may well, tinker with it to get it working properly again, but I've been hankering for the Sage for a year or two and while in the UK a couple of weeks back (I live in France) I finally took the plunge. Loving it so far but haven't changed settings very much, partly because I don't find the manual* very clear about adjusting shot length and volume. I rang Sage Customer Support and the person I spoke too wasn't clear either and said she'd get back to me, but nothing so far. So I'd be grateful if someone would confirm what I think must be the case: You can set both the length of time a shot takes to go through, as well as the quantity of liquid that results, by using the procedure on p.11 of the manual - Shot Duration and Shot Volume. You then set which of these the machine acts on in the advance settings (FLo or SEc) for Volumetric Control on p.15. Is this correct, and does the machine ignore any duration setting if Volumetric Control is set to FLo, and vice versa? If that is the case, am I correct in thinking that there isn't a way to operate both duration and volume in tandem, eg to extract a specific shot volume in a short time or a longer time? If you can do the latter, then what is the function of the FLo or SEc advanced setting? Need to get my head round this!

And one other question (for now!): The Gaggia stopped working properly months ago and we've been using a cafetiere with packeted ground coffee. Now we have the new machine we're back to grinding ourselves for each brew, but we've been using up coffee beans that are months past their BB date. When we made our very first shots I used the single wall filter and the result was very disappointing and I noticed the pressure gauge hardly moved. Noting that they recommend using the double wall filter for pre-ground coffee, I figured our stale beans, even though freshly ground, would have more characteristics in common with pre-ground, so I switched to the double wall filter and the results immediately improved. (I also switched to the finest setting on my grinder, a Krups.) Yet I notice that the pressure still doesn't get beyond 7-8; I've yet to see a full 9 bar extraction. Am I right in assuming this will change when I get hold of some fresh roasted beans?

All for now. Grateful for any advice.


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## nickdc

* I forgot to add my footnote on the manual, and now I can't see a means of editing my previous post so am adding here. One of the things that surprises me about the Sage DB is the paucity of the manual that comes with it. They refer to it as a "Quick Guide" and that's exactly what it is and it provides the essentials. But with a machine of this quality I expected something more substantial to be available, at least online, but an enquiry to Customer Services drew a blank. Obviously I've picked up a fair few tips reading in this forum, but if anyone knows of a more comprehensive and systematic guide to this machine it would be great to share a link.

Aha! I see there's an "edit" link on this one! Is it on a timer? Or not available on a first post???


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## jlarkin

hi Nick, I edited and numbered for simplicity.



nickdc said:


> You can set both the length of time a shot takes to go through, as well as the quantity of liquid that results, by using the procedure on p.11 of the manual - Shot Duration and Shot Volume. You then set which of these the machine acts on in the advance settings (FLo or SEc) for Volumetric Control on p.15.
> 
> 1. Is this correct, and does the machine ignore any duration setting if Volumetric Control is set to FLo, and vice versa?
> 
> if that is the case,
> 
> 2. am I correct in thinking that there isn't a way to operate both duration and volume in tandem, eg to extract a specific shot volume in a short time or a longer time? If you can do the latter, then what is the function of the FLo or SEc advanced setting?
> 
> And one other question (for now!): The Gaggia stopped working properly months ago and we've been using a cafetiere with packeted ground coffee. Now we have the new machine we're back to grinding ourselves for each brew, but we've been using up coffee beans that are months past their BB date. When we made our very first shots I used the single wall filter and the result was very disappointing and I noticed the pressure gauge hardly moved. Noting that they recommend using the double wall filter for pre-ground coffee, I figured our stale beans, even though freshly ground, would have more characteristics in common with pre-ground, so I switched to the double wall filter and the results immediately improved. (I also switched to the finest setting on my grinder, a Krups.)
> 
> 3. Yet I notice that the pressure still doesn't get beyond 7-8; I've yet to see a full 9 bar extraction. Am I right in assuming this will change when I get hold of some fresh roasted beans?
> 
> All for now. Grateful for any advice.


 1. As far as I'm aware you set either duration or volume, their is no point in trying to set both. That said, in my opinion there is also no point in setting duration. Try to use time as a bit of a guide but the amount of drink you make is the best guide IMO. I use manual button every time fwiw.

Get yourself a look at the beginners weighing espresso thread, will try to find it in a moment and get some scales and try that.

2. Yes, you cannot do both. From what i know only a very advanced control could try to give you a specific volume in a set time, as it would control the flow depending on the resistance from the coffee puck.

3. Perhaps ?. It is most likely due to the combination of stale beans and a relatively entry level grinder for espresso grinding. Now that you've got the Sage DB if funds allow, you may wish to consider upgrading the grinder next and you'll likely find loads of temptations if you look around the forum long enough from a little more expensive to well a LOT MORE and everything in between. That pressure gauge is more of a guide though, as 9 bar doesn't hold any magic. How's the coffee tasting?


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## jlarkin

nickdc said:


> * I forgot to add my footnote on the manual, and now I can't see a means of editing my previous post so am adding here. One of the things that surprises me about the Sage DB is the paucity of the manual that comes with it. They refer to it as a "Quick Guide" and that's exactly what it is and it provides the essentials. But with a machine of this quality I expected something more substantial to be available, at least online, but an enquiry to Customer Services drew a blank. Obviously I've picked up a fair few tips reading in this forum, but if anyone knows of a more comprehensive and systematic guide to this machine it would be great to share a link.
> 
> Aha! I see there's an "edit" link on this one! Is it on a timer? Or not available on a first post???


 Think Edit option is time based, I can't recall how long but it's a somewhat short time before it's stopped if I remember correctly.


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## ajohn

LOL I think they feel who ever buys it is into serious coffee and has some idea what they are doing. In real terms it's a rather advanced dual boiler machine. They cover the settings that are available well and it would be rather difficult for them to cover brewing counting for what some one might choose to do.

Maybe the guide differs in different countries. The UK one can be downloaded here under support page numbers run up to 33.

https://www.sageappliances.com/uk/en/products/espresso/bes920.html

Tried the French site and the manual is in English.

There is a little section on brewing that just mentions time. If like other Sage machines it mentioned ratio of grams of grinds in to weight of shot out it would probably be 3 not the usual 2. I'm glad of that actually as it encourage me to vary the ratios I use that may or may not be 2. They also spec a wider time range than many sources.

They don't mention the capacity of the filter baskets. While it doesn't give a perfect result for me the razor tool can still give a clue. I found the single very difficult to use without over filling so swapped that for a standard 7g filter basket. It will hold more on the DB. The problem with the Sage one is tamping - tamper presses on the basket not the grinds. 12g in might make it work.

The machine can be set to volume mode. When tuning a bean in that mode you would be setting up for a certain volume in a certain time so there is no need to set time as well. The machine will try to maintain the volume / weight of the shot. I tried it briefly and wasn't too impressed with it's accuracy. Being fair to Sage it can probably be made to work well if the pressure gauge doesn't go any higher than the blue sector on the gauge or some point past it but as that is increased the shot accuracy will decrease. The pressure is limited by an over pressure valve which dumps excess pressure back into the water tank. At some point this is way way more than the weight of the shot and it measures all of the water flow not just the bit that goes through the puck. The Barista Express works the same way and that will hold a shot weight rather well if due attention is given to the pressure gauge so the DB can very probably do the same. The reason is where they put the flow meter, after the feed from the tank and before the pump. Full blown commercial machines put it after the over pressure valve so that it actually measures just the water flow through the puck.  I'll forgive them for not doing this as machines that do and offer the same programming facilities can cost several thousand pounds and even then may not have stainless boilers.

So I used timed shots. That needs careful prep to keep the output constant. Some use the machine in manual mode and weigh the shot as it's pulled. I have intended to try and make the volume mode work well but suspect it will use more coffee, maybe one day.

While I have mentioned why you are probably having problems with the single it wouldn't be a bad idea to mention what grinder you are using but if it was Ok on Gaggia I can't see why there should be a problem on a DB other than you are probably brewing at a higher pressure now which will need finer grinding.

John

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## nickdc

Hi Joe and John,

Many thanks for your replies. Thanks too, Joe, for the edit - post was a tad long-winded wasn't it - sorry for that!

You've both helped me understand the shot size issue, and more! Interesting that one of you goes by volume and the other by duration. So far, like you Joe, I've used manual every time except the very first. The coffee, considering it's from very stale beans, tastes good, better than we got from the gaggia even when the beans were fresher. But my spouse and I both like very big shots of strong coffee: for her black I've been packing the basket as full as I can and running off 100ml, which from what I read is like two double shots in volume. I use an even larger volume as the base for my cappucino ... I imagine afictionados on here throwing up their hands in horror! Really we need to wait till we get some fresh roasted beans though before we decide whether to venture into more purist territory, or continue as we are. We only drink the one cup each day.


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## ajohn

My fixed 30sec duration keeps the shot weight to within a couple of grams so I too work to a volume out. Just a different way of doing it. I've found that as far as taste goes I can allow more variation than I mostly achieve. Mostly as sometimes the last few shots out of a can of beans need the grinder altering. I might be using 40g for instance and rather suddenly that may go to 45. Time to adjust the grinder.

John

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## ashcroc

nickdc said:


> Hi Joe and John,
> 
> Many thanks for your replies. Thanks too, Joe, for the edit - post was a tad long-winded wasn't it - sorry for that!
> 
> You've both helped me understand the shot size issue, and more! Interesting that one of you goes by volume and the other by duration. So far, like you Joe, I've used manual every time except the very first. The coffee, considering it's from very stale beans, tastes good, better than we got from the gaggia even when the beans were fresher. But my spouse and I both like very big shots of strong coffee: for her black I've been packing the basket as full as I can and running off 100ml, which from what I read is like two double shots in volume. I use an even larger volume as the base for my cappucino ... I imagine afictionados on here throwing up their hands in horror! Really we need to wait till we get some fresh roasted beans though before we decide whether to venture into more purist territory, or continue as we are. We only drink the one cup each day.


Nothing wrong with high ratios if they work for you A 1:5 ratio will be more diluted than a 1:2 or 1:3 one so you may find a shorter shot in your final drink (either topped up with water or milk depending on your final drink) will taste just as strong but bring out different flavour notes in the bean.  Here's a good vid that explains some way how to dial in your shot for best taste.


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## nickdc

Thanks ashcroc! Excellent video; I can see I've got a steep learning curve ahead!


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## Patsy

Hi all I've just ordered a truffle dual boiler this morning I'm upgrading from Barista Express so I'm looking to buy a grinder prob up and around £300, if anyone has any recommendations would be appreciated thanks.

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## cambosheff

Please don't take this as an endorsement, but the eureka grinders I've had have usually been pretty good and if you could live with the colour this is listed as offers considered....

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F143431457448

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## Patsy

I just ordered the Sage truffle pro grinder it was on offer, so I'll see how it goes for a while I may get somthing like a Niche later on. Thanks for your input 

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## AndyJH

Patsy said:


> Hi all I've just ordered a truffle dual boiler this morning
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm upgrading from Barista Express so I'm looking to buy a grinder prob up and around £300, if anyone has any recommendations would be appreciated thanks.
> 
> Sent from my ONEPLUS A6013 using Tapatalk


 They are on a good deal currently, keep considering a replacement for my ol' girl ?


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## joey24dirt

Looks like I'm in the club now 

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## ashcroc

joey24dirt said:


> Looks like I'm in the club now
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Have you converted the hot water valve for slayer style shots yet?


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## joey24dirt

What's the official warm up time for the DB then?

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## Patsy

I've received my new dual boiler now and the warm up when I just tried it was 2 mins 10 seconds. I've just had a quick set up and I'm quite surprised the grinder seems really quite good,. I'll try more tomorrow I've had a long day 

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## truegrace

Mine has just arrived, not allowed it til Xmas though ?


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## MildredM

truegrace said:


> Mine has just arrived, not allowed it til Xmas though ?
> 
> View attachment 33901


 Ooooh congrats! A test of patience then - it's going to be an exciting Christmas ?


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## joey24dirt

I wouldn't be able to wait haha. Cracking machine though. I love mine

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## Nicknak

truegrace said:


> Mine has just arrived, not allowed it til Xmas though ?
> 
> View attachment 33901


 Have you tried a mediation service ? . Enjoy it when you are allowed .


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## truegrace

Interested to see how it compares to my old R58 when I'm finally allowed,

At least it gives me time to purchase tamper, mat, knock box etc, that's what I'm telling myself anyway!


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## truegrace

Just unpacked the dB to check contents, only to have to pack it all back up in the box.

Looks pretty good though, not as shiny as the R58 but still pretty dam nice.

4 and a bit weeks to go!


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## ashcroc

truegrace said:


> Just unpacked the dB to check contents, only to have to pack it all back up in the box.
> Looks pretty good though, not as shiny as the R58 but still pretty dam nice.
> 
> 4 and a bit weeks to go!


No 'gotta make sure it's working' excuse?


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## truegrace

ashcroc said:


> No 'gotta make sure it's working' excuse?


 I did try that but no such luck!

That said I need to purchase a few things anyway so can do it 'properly'

Any suggestions for scales? Used a cheap set from ebay with the rocket, not sure what else is out there nowadays!


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## ashcroc

truegrace said:


> I did try that but no such luck!
> 
> That said I need to purchase a few things anyway so can do it 'properly'
> 
> Any suggestions for scales? Used a cheap set from ebay with the rocket, not sure what else is out there nowadays!


Unless you want to spend hundreds, cheap is the way to go (I use this set from Amazon). There's not really a worthwhile middle ground unfortunately.


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## truegrace

ashcroc said:


> Unless you want to spend hundreds, cheap is the way to go (I use this set from Amazon). There's not really a worthwhile middle ground unfortunately.


 Probably 100s wouldn't go down well with the wife so don't wanna push it!

Will have a scan about and see what I can find as need a knock box and tamper as well.

Might pop in to Rave next week to see if they have any torrs in store to have a look as they have them on the website


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## catpuccino

truegrace said:


> Probably 100s wouldn't go down well with the wife so don't wanna push it!
> 
> Will have a scan about and see what I can find as need a knock box and tamper as well.
> 
> Might pop in to Rave next week to see if they have any torrs in store to have a look as they have them on the website


 I love my Grindstein https://www.amazon.co.uk/Grindenstein-Knock-Out-Box-Black/dp/B0016J7YQM/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2AJ22W24AYHZJ&keywords=grindenstein+knock+box&qid=1574454274&sprefix=grindstein+%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1


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## truegrace

catpuccino said:


> I love my Grindstein https://www.amazon.co.uk/Grindenstein-Knock-Out-Box-Black/dp/B0016J7YQM/ref=sr_1_1?crid=2AJ22W24AYHZJ&keywords=grindenstein+knock+box&qid=1574454274&sprefix=grindstein+%2Caps%2C153&sr=8-1


 Had the same in red before, might pick up another one in black as couldn't fault it


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## joey24dirt

These are great for the price and have a timer. Also fit on the DB drip tray.... just 

Oh and if you go to rave, have a look for my tamper I sent them 

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## truegrace

joey24dirt said:


> These are great for the price and have a timer. Also fit on the DB drip tray.... just
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> Oh and if you go to rave, have a look for my tamper I sent them
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> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Walk past rave every day omw to work, was costing me a few coffees a day when I was popping in so just walk past now, work close enough to smell the coffee roasting if the winds in the right direction though ?


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