# machine advice please!



## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Hi, I am looking new to this forum but have been reading all your threads and am looking for advice please!

I have been keen to buy a really good espresso machine for some time now, but made do with nespresso which is predictable and good, but I do want to make the kind of coffee I love!

I have saved up, but am very much a learner! Have used family's 10yr old starbucks machine on and off over the years.

I have taken on board recommendation to get a good Grinder (currently have a Krups burr grinder- is it good enough??).

So should I be purchasing the Gaggia Classic to learn on, or do I spend my pounds on a Silvio that so many of you seem to have, or do I just go for it- Bella Barrista website has some beautiful machines, but is it wasted on a learner?! A friend's husband recommended ECM...

Whatever I buy is a longterm purchase for home- I would rather not have to upgrade in 3 years!

Hope you dont mind helping!

Many thanks


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Hi Lynne and welcome to the forum.

A few questions to help us forum members with advice.

What is your spending budget and bear in mind you will have to take into account a new grinder as the Krups will not be up to the job, a good grinder is key to the production of espresso. You will also need a decent tamper, jug and cleaning equipment.

What kind of drinks do you tend to make - neat espresso or milk based drinks

How many drinks do you want to make at a time.

How much space on your kitchen worktops do you have to site your equipment and are there any height restrictions eg cupboards above the workspace.

Have you got a source for good quality, fresh beans in mind.

Don


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Welcome to the forum.

I'm with Don on your absolute need to factor a decent grinder into the equation. Otherwise it doesn't matter what machine you buy - you'll not make decent espresso or espresso-based drink. Unless you want a second-hand or hand-powered grinder you need to budget between £120 (for an MC2) up to £500+ for a grinder. Tamper, jug, knock-box and cleaning gear can add £50 to £100 to the budget.

After that, you've specified a very wide spectrum of machines, but have included some sensible choices. As Don has said, some additional information would help in giving advice tailored to your specific needs. The Gaggia is a good machine - lots of people see no need to move on beyond them - but if you've already looked at more expensive machines, and talked about it as a 'learner' machine, will you be satisfied with it? That said, the journey through the ownership of different machines is all part of the process, and something like a Gaggia Classic won't lose you too much money when you come to dispose of it. Neither will a Silvia, for that matter, and again, it's a great machine - but perhaps represents a steeper learning curve that the Classic.

An E61/HX/Double boiler machine is certainly not wasted on a beginner - it's no harder to use than a Silvia, but unless money is no object, I'd personally be reluctant to spend that sort of money until I had some experience behind me and knew exactly what I wanted. The differences between the various E61s are subtle, and choosing the exact one that meets your requirements would be difficult without at least some experience.

ECM used to make the Giotto - but that is now made by Rocket - an Italian/New Zealander owned company. If it's the current ECM machine that you're considering, make sure that you talk to Claudette at BellaBarista. They no longer carry them as stock items, and she actively discouraged me fro buying one when I was looking for an E61 machine earlier this year (though sadly I can't remember exactly what the issue with them was).

Hope this helps. Keep the questions coming - we all like helping others get established in the game!


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Welcome to the forum Lynne. Nothing to add here I think Don and Vintagecigarman have hit the nail on the head. I have a Silvia and love it (I'm still learning on it even a year later) but I am already considering an upgrade (that's just me though as I have upgradeitis like many on here)


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Upgradeitis seems to be a very contagious condition in the coffee community, I'm afraid. My New Year's Resolution was not to buy any new coffee hardware - lasted all of 6 days.

Advice to any newcomer to coffee is to learn how to open your wallet in the vicinity of any barista supplier and repeat after me: "Help yourselves".


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks everyone! Great tips!

Yes I am wanting to "go for it", and willing to spend what I need to. But not waste money! I have been keen for several years but resisted too long!

OK, so new grinder required- will need to be able to grind for french press too for times when there are lots of people here until i get my skills up!! So need to be able to adjust it for grind. Have looked at the other threads re grinders, and think if I am upgrading once, I should do it now! Is the Rancilio pairing of grinder and Sivio the best or should I go up in my budget to £1000?

And yes, I'll need the rest of the knock box/jug etc.

I will be making 2-3 drinks or so daily during weekdays, some more at weekends. I enjoy milk based drinks most of the time, but have got into espresso too with the nespresso machine.

Beans- will need to source too!

Thanks again!

Space- worktop has 50 cm height clearance. Dont want to be plumbed in though.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Personally I am not a fan of the Rancilio Rocky grinders.

Although adequate I have encountered them clumping in many situations where other grinders using the same beans and similar fineness settings have not

This may have been coincidence but I am sure that others will back me up in this observation too


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Glenn's beaten me to it! I was just about to say, with due respect to Rocky owners, that it is no longer the favoured grinder that it once was. Take a look at the Vario, which pairs nicely with the Silvio (I'm sure that Sandy will be along to back this up, as it's the combination she has). The Vario will easily (and repeatedly) move from grinding for espresso to french press. OK, I personally didn't like the Vario, and couldn't wait to move mine on - but I'm in the minority - lots of people, Glenn included, love them!

£1,000 somehow seems an awkward amount - just a little bit too low to get the all-singing-and-dancing kit I think that you are looking for. For that money you could get an Expobar Leva (£815) and (just about) a Eureka Mignon - which would look great, but be hampered by the Leva being a single boiler machine. I'd sooner go for the Expobar Dual Boiler - currently at £999 - and an appropriate grinder - Vario, K3, and bust the budget! One of the things that I'm constantly aware of in the coffee game is that once you set a budget, regardless how high it is, what you end up really wanting always exceeds it!

All the above are just suggestions that I'm throwing in the pot. One of the things that you'll find is that now you've asked for advice you'll get so much that your head will be buzzing.

Good luck!


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks all, I think I get the idea; set the budget and double it!! But savour each coffee even more!

Great advice.

Silvio was my original decision, though a little concerned its too tricky to practice on!!If I splashed out and got the Exobar double boiler, and the Vario, is it worth the extra?


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I think the Expobar / Vario combination would serve you very well and both will fit your height restriction requirement as well as the need to change grind setting easily.

One thing you may have to do is have a hose and funnel for filling the water tank on the Expobar to avoid having to pull it out to reach the filling hole.

As a more than happy Rancilio Silvia owner, I would have no hesitation upgrading to the Expobar dual boiler machine.

One item we have not mentioned is a water filter, personally I would recommend the Brita Maxtra jug system. Scale build up is a big issue for espresso machines.


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Hi Lynne and welcome to Coffee Forums.

A really great first thread and one where we can all share your journey. When I upgraded my grinder my choice was between the Rocky and the Vario. I plumped for the Vario and I'm glad I did. It is a very sensitive grinder but you will get used to it. I like the portafilter holder (although you will need to keep a hand on the portafilter to prevent it from flying) and the digital dosing timer is a nice touch. I also like the fact that it automatically turns itself off after a set time - one less thing for me to do. That said, if I could upgrade from the Vario I would, to a Mazzer Mini - only because I like the look of it not because it does a better job than the Vario!! The Vario is compact and solid - it won't let you down (IMO).

The machine? I am happy with Silvia, she makes great coffee but she needs cleaning and demands respect at all times. Again, if I could upgrade with money being no object, it would be the Alex Duetto, however, money is an object and so either the Izzo PID or the Expobar Dual boiler (which you have mentioned) would be on my personal list.

Lastly you must have a good milk jug, knock box, cups etc. Check out Coffee Hit, Bella Barista, Happy Donkey and Hasbean. Hasbean are also great for online beans - you won't get better customer service from anyone else. MyEspresso do not have a good reputation on this Forum although I did purchase my Silvia from them and encountered no problems at all.

One more thing, don't forget to post pics when your new machine does arrive.


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Aye Sandy, would I have the Duetto oh yes, but it is £600 more than the Expobar and like you I am very happy with the Silvia until I win the Lotto. We will just have to wait and see where Lynne ends up in her espresso journey, I`m sure she will have a fine adventure.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

All good advice so far. The only thing I would add to it is the Silvia is a great machine for learning your skills on but if you're making anymore than 2 drinks at a time (i.e. pouring 2 shots) and they're milk based drinks I would be considering a dual boiler machine otherwise it can take ages waiting for the Silvia to change between temps for frothing milk and the lower temperature again for pulling shots (well not ages but it'll get on your nerves) I find I enjoy making drinks on my Silvia but if we have guests and they all start asking for milk based drinks it can get a bit stressful. Normal folk don't appreciate the time it takes Silvia to warm up and then heat up again for steam. Couple all that with temp surfing and the fun goes out of it. If you get an Expobar dual boiler you'll be laughing and I will be crying with extreme jealousy


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

I would endorse MonkeyHarris' views. We don't host many dinner parties but when we do, by the time I get to sit down with my coffee, I'm exhausted - its then that I really lust after a dual boiler.


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## hashluck (Jan 11, 2011)

I will be watching your journey with interest! I am about to get a grinder (probably Eureka Mignon due to restricted space) and am fortunate I have an aged Krups espresso machine I can learn some more on and once I am proficient at the grind, dose and tamp I will invest in a machine (and so no doubt begin the whole process again!)


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

+1 with MonkeyHarris about the limitations of a single boiler machine such as the Silvia. It is a great machine, but if you like your milk drinks then you would be thinking about upgrading in a couple of years. The experience of steaming milk and brewing espresso at the same time is worth it.


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks very much for all the advice!

Purchased from very helpful Bella Barista, and order came well packaged with extra instructions and great coffee to start me off!

Vario easy ++ to adjust and no mess on the counter, working very well! Excellent recommendation, and although it's not fab to look at, it is super!

Got the Levobar Double Boiler which is again really easy to use- although I agree I will need to work out a tubing system to fill it up, as its amazing how quickly I use the tank. Making fabulous coffees in close succession, and my consumption has gone up enormously, and with big smile on my face- delicious coffee!

So thanks for all recommendations

Not tried the backflushing yet, and descaling sounds rather time consuming.....may be asking more advice later!!

Just need to get my weigh scales and knock box, but otherwise coping well!!


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Nice choices. Glad you're happy with your purchases and pleased that some of us have been able to point you in an appropriate direction!

(But if you are happy with the coffee you are making and the beans that you're working with are the dark roasted Neapolitan that BB tend to send out with new machines/grinders - then just wait until you get some good, fresh-roasted beans - the difference will really blow you away!!)

Nothing to be frightened of in backflusing - but you need to start regular water backflushing asap. Once you've done it once, it becomes second nature.

Descaling is a bit time consuming - but the instructions from BB are good and easy to follow. You just need to set a couple of hours aside - though you'll not be giving the machine constant attention over those two hours.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I agree with Vintagecigarman. Very good choices. I am insanley jealous. Please post some pics up for me to drool over


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

An excellent combination. Hope you enjoy it.


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Lynne, don't forget to post pics of your set up


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## Grumpy (Jan 21, 2011)

Hi can I suggest you look at the Fracino range, perhaps the Hevenly at espressounderground.co.uk its British made in Birmingham and is a semi professional machine using the same group head as it's larger brothers, it will give you a perfect espresso based drink, best of all it looks good and is a reasonable price. Also look at the grinders there are also some good deals to be had. Just sign in as if you are a business, it's ok to do that.


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Hello! I am 4 years on, a very happy consumer of coffee, and my Expobar dual boiler works very well (except one repair last year). The vario still worked well, but I have "kindly" given this to my Dad for Father's Day as his grinder broke! So now I need a new one to match my machine....!

I only use for espresso or mainly milk based drinks.

I am swithering between a mazzer mini e type A, or one of the Eurika machines 65e, or Olympus 75 preorder on Bella barista. I can't see them in real life as no physical showroom nearby. I know the Olympus is big in cm, is it massive in real life? Is it worth it? Any other suggestions?

Thanks again....your advice was appreciated last time!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

There's a thread on the Olympus in here, if you have the extra cash it sounds like a much better grinder


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks, yes, that's what's been encouraging me, just not sure if it's too huge for a kitchen corner!!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It doesn't sound much bigger than the 65e and you can put a wee hopper on it. What's your budget in case there's anything else worth considering?


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

£750 seems a pretty huge amount to me, so not really wanting to go above this. But worth it if it makes a difference!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have one at the moment. With the small hopper, it stands 19 inches tall. I am going to stick my neck out and say the BB introductory offer cannot be matched. I do not think here is a better new grinder available with 75mm Titanium burrs at that price point!


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Thanks for input, hoping its also kitchen friendly!! Doesn't sound too tall though . Thanks!


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## mrsimba (Mar 17, 2014)

If you can stretch to the BB 'offer' priced 75e then go for it, can't see them ever being cheaper than that! I've a 65e currently & have a 75e on order after reading the initial reviews on here









I'd not buy a 'new' 65e right now as there will be a few in the classifieds when the 75e comes into stock and owners upgrade, there will definatly be some very reasonably priced used 65e's hitting the market place around that time to take advantage of!!!


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Had been hanging on to see more comments of Olympus into July. So not purchased yet. Thinking of the comments of what's my budget....if I upped it a little, what should my purchase be? Still to fit under kitchen cupboards! One of the new Compak 8 or Ceado? Seem so quick. Or is that overkill?? Or stick to original comments? Thanks again!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There is an caedo e37 in the alest threads at the moment. It's well priced may be worth looking at


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Have jumped for the Compak E8- will just squeeze under the counter I hope! Looking forward to learning on this! Thanks for all the advice ☕


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

vintagecigarman said:


> Nice choices. Glad you're happy with your purchases and pleased that some of us have been able to point you in an appropriate direction!
> 
> (But if you are happy with the coffee you are making and the beans that you're working with are the dark roasted Neapolitan that BB tend to send out with new machines/grinders - then just wait until you get some good, fresh-roasted beans - the difference will really blow you away!!)
> 
> ...


Oi Oi!

(I know its from 2011)


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Yes my upgraditis has been slower to hit me than others on this forum! Hopefully that's my last purchase.....!!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Lynne said:


> Yes my upgraditis has been slower to hit me than others on this forum! Hopefully that's my last purchase.....!!


Saying that is like scratching an itch, you'll just make it worse and keep scratching. Before you know it you'll be buying an L1 or a Vesuvius


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## Lynne (Jan 15, 2011)

Hmmmm that's a thought! Maybe in 2019, another 4 years away will give me time to save up


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