# Fracino FCX2 group head pressure



## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Hoping someone can help before I go cap in hand to Sue in the parts department again...

I've recently got hold of an old (2004?) Fracino FCX2 machine, and have finally got it plumbed in after replacing the old battered manifold so I don't end up with an underwater kitchen.

The machine fills fine and heats up - plenty of hot water and steam available. However, I'm not seeing any increase in pressure at the group head when pulling a shot. I suspect the pump isn't working right.

So: Could this be a clogged pipe issue, or is a faulty pump more likely?

I was also under the impression the light was supposed to come on when the pump is operating. It doesn't here.

I'm happy to get my hands dirty, but don't want to start taking apart the wrong parts unnecessarily. Any pointers?

Here's a quick video of the noises it's making, in case that's any help!

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMxKe5QB6GG9W2BaI1MrKcZqiGbNaBX_1U1eyewKn00Xm 27AaH1c1NyiNnrJipOrw/photo/AF1QipMoabW5pjRwNfXDdIHpDa9CJF8FgFND-K15jb6b?key=ZGVtcXVYYVpiUWxTaThVdjNDSFZ4TDdrM0JNTm 13


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's a photo not a video?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

DavecUK said:


> It's a photo not a video?


It's a video - maybe your browser?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dylan said:


> It's a video - maybe your browser?


Perhaps, I use Firefox...It sounds like the pump is being starved of water from the inlet. Of course it might be faulty, but it's worth checking the Inlet hose. Is it running from a tank?


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

There's definitely water from the inlet. It's connected to mains water which usually sits at around 4bar.

Is it possible there's an air trap somewhere?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Check for blockages


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Looks like there's no water flowing from the group head / portafilter when the pump is running ?


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Looks like there's no water flowing from the group head / portafilter when the pump is running ?

If so, then there's a blockage either:

* In the group solenoid valve ( dismantle & descale/clean, or fit a new one)

* in the group head itself (with valve off, try cleaning out the 2 ports). Remove the big top nut & pour some concentrated descaler in.


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

I can't believe I forgot to put this in the first post:

I'm using a blind PF in that video to emulate a puck. Water flows normally, but not at the right pressure. So, not a full blockage anywhere.

Sorry for any confusion.

Thanks for all the advice given so far. I'll see if I can have a crack at it over the weekend. I should at least be able to check the motor is turning


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Then it might be the OPV valve - either scaled or just incorrectly set.


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Thanks. Back to the schematics tonight then!


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

IF the OPV valve is leaking, water will escape into the plastic drain tub (under the dritray) when the pump is running.

The OPV is usually set @ 12 bar; it's difficult to overhaul successfully (usually best to fit new one).


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

I may be onto something:









What a mess!

I can't even get the screw off the second group. With the screen off this one is now up to 8 bar. The other side is still at 6.

I'm away next week but after that I think I'm going to need to set aside a day for a thorough clean


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

To remove the screen screw:

(Total destruction method)

* Prise the screen away from the base plate using a thin bladed screwdriver, to form 2 opposing butterfly wings.

* Squeeze the 2 wings tightly together using a mole wrench, so that the butterfly grips the screwhead.

* Keep squeezing while turning the butterfly to unscrew the screw+screen.

If that fails, just use the mole wrench to pull the screen off the screw (!)....brutal, but it works.....

PS Time to fit a set of new seals & shower screens, methinks.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Wow... gross.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

I do it quite often on commercial machines, especially if the screwhead slot has rounded out !

I Work on the assumption that the old screen is just fit for the bin + I always fit new screens when fitting new group seals.


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

Screw on the pump not adjusted up to 9bar?


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Could be: Load PF & lock onto group head: Slacken off the locknut (if there is one)on the pumphead, turn the screw clockwise 1/2 a turn to increase the pressure, run the run the pump & note the new pressure....re-adjust as necessary to reach 9 bar. Refill PF & check/adjust as necessary....


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

espressotechno said:


> Could be: Load PF & lock onto group head: Slacken off the locknut (if there is one)on the pumphead, turn the screw clockwise 1/2 a turn to increase the pressure, run the run the pump & note the new pressure....re-adjust as necessary to reach 9 bar. Refill PF & check/adjust as necessary....


Thanks. I've been away all last week but should be able to get new screens and seals ordered on Monday. Will post progress when they arrive.


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

espressotechno said:


> I do it quite often on commercial machines, especially if the screwhead slot has rounded out !
> 
> I Work on the assumption that the old screen is just fit for the bin + I always fit new screens when fitting new group seals.


Thanks for the tip. The second screen is now off and I can get to the seal. I thought rubber was supposed to bend!?

New parts on order.


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

New parts have arrived, so I've been cleaning out the first group and hacking away at petrified rubber in the second.

Turns out there was a shim still stuck in the first group. I can now see metal all the way up.

I've cleaned the dispersion head with lemon and bicarbonate of soda so it actually looks like brass again. Am I okay using the same stuff on the inside of the group? I know I need to steer clear of the chrome on the outside.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

After a year++ of use, group seals transform themselves from rubber into concrete (!)


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

espressotechno said:


> After a year++ of use, group seals transform themselves from rubber into concrete (!)


As I'm learning!

I'm loath to actually remove the group head if I can avoid it, so it looks like I'll be chiselling away with a screwdriver for a while longer. I'm hopeful that it'll go faster once I've got through in one spot.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

If you have an old narrow-bladed screwdriver, file the blade down as sharp as possible & use it as a chisel.

Soak the old seal in WD40 overnight, then chisel out 1/2 inch lumps at a time.


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Progress! Still haven't managed to sort out the second group, but I've cleaned out the first one, got the new seals and screen in place, flushed a _lot_ of water through it, and I'm finally making coffee.

The pressure gauge still doesn't go as high as I'm expecting, so I'll do some more tweaking, but it's managing pretty good extractions at 7 bar, and the steam wand is excellent: I've finally got decent microfoam.

This morning's latte attempt below. Thanks guys!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Do you get any liquid at all out of the second group?

Just thinking if you have a blanking basket (basket with no holes) you can put some cafitza in there, run the second group until it is filled with water (as you would do for a backflush) but then just leave it for a day or so - the cafitza should work its way into the coffee oils and break down some of the old ground holding it all together.


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Yeah, I'm getting water through and I've got the screen off. Just need to set aside some time to scrape out the old seal. Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not sure there's a good enough seal left to use a blind basket without it spurting out around the edges!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jymbob said:


> Yeah, I'm getting water through and I've got the screen off. Just need to set aside some time to scrape out the old seal. Thanks for the suggestion, but I'm not sure there's a good enough seal left to use a blind basket without it spurting out around the edges!


Ah, I see, wouldn't make any difference to the old seal anyway!

If you can get a corkscrew into the seal it does a decent job of grabbing it and getting it out, or wood screws screwed in and then pulled out with pliers.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Dylan said:


> Ah, I see, wouldn't make any difference to the old seal anyway!
> 
> If you can get a corkscrew into the seal it does a decent job of grabbing it and getting it out, or wood screws screwed in and then pulled out with pliers.


I've used the mandrel for a dremel polishing wheel after drilling a small pilot hole with the dremel for it to go into to get one out before. It worked surprisingly well.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Dangerous to leave Cafiza/Pulycaff in a group head overnight: The residual heat may evaporate the water, causing the pulycaff to solidify & block up the solenoid valve, narrow waterways, etc.

But OK to do it with descaler acid....


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Dylan said:


> Ah, I see, wouldn't make any difference to the old seal anyway!
> 
> If you can get a corkscrew into the seal it does a decent job of grabbing it and getting it out, or wood screws screwed in and then pulled out with pliers.


Amazing! Thanks. Now to clean it...


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Maybe I was a bit hasty. Something tells me it's not supposed to do that...


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Replacement easy to source - cost around £12. Maybe worth getting an extra one for the other group ?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

espressotechno said:


> Dangerous to leave Cafiza/Pulycaff in a group head overnight: The residual heat may evaporate the water, causing the pulycaff to solidify & block up the solenoid valve, narrow waterways, etc.
> 
> But OK to do it with descaler acid....


I somehow doubt a sealed chamber would allow water to evaporate.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

You'd be surprised !

I have personal experience of having to replace solenoid valves, clogged up with hard Pulycaff, after machine has been left overnight with Puly solution in the head.

Customers didn't believe me until I opened up the valve & showed them...


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

espressotechno said:


> You'd be surprised !
> 
> I have personal experience of having to replace solenoid valves, clogged up with hard Pulycaff, after machine has been left overnight with Puly solution in the head.
> 
> Customers didn't believe me until I opened up the valve & showed them...


I think I misunderstood what you were saying, I was thinking of the liquid in the PF itself which is quite substantial and relatively well sealed - around the solenoid where it can drain and quickly dry I can see how it may become a problem.

In any case, if you have seen it in person it is obviously something best avoided!


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

Very quiet. Hows the OP geting on with this?


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Well, it's operational, so I've paused to take stock before deciding what to do next.

Pics over in this thread.

I haven't yet bought the new dispersion plates, so I'm just using the left hand side at the moment.

Pressure now up to 9 bar when extracting, steam at around 1.2

Question: It takes a good while (over 5 minutes) for the pressure to slowly drop back down to mains pressure (around 4). Should I be worried about that? Indicative that there's still a blockage somewhere?


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

After making a coffee, the pump stops & the group solenoid valve immediately opens to allow pressurised excess water to escape (you can usually hear the valve opening & water escaping.

The pump pressure reading also drops quickly.The portafilter can then be removed safely & quickly

* Can you hear the valve opening & see the waste water escaping ?

* Can you remove the PF easily before the 5 minutes are up ?

If "no" to the above then there's a blockage - either in the solenoid valve itself or inside the group head.


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

Tbf if its taking 5 mins to drop down to mains pressure - it may be the non return valve on the back of the manifold.

Easy way to tell would to pull off a load of shots - give it 5 mins - then see if the braided hose is hot thay feeds the manifold.


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

As the steam pressure clicks in and out - the left side of the gauge should flux up and down also. Should take a lot longer than 5 mins to lose that much pressure


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

espressotechno said:


> After making a coffee, the pump stops & the group solenoid valve immediately opens to allow pressurised excess water to escape (you can usually hear the valve opening & water escaping.
> 
> The pump pressure reading also drops quickly.The portafilter can then be removed safely & quickly
> 
> ...


Waste water escapes, no issue removing the PF. I'll look into if the NRV is stuck. Wouldn't surprise me, given the state the old manifold was in.


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

...Although when I remove the PF, an additional trickle of water drains out of the three way valve


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

Another easy way - get the lhs gauge up to pressure - then turn water supply off to the machine and take the braided hose off the manifold. If its letting water back out manifold - it needs sorting


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

Does it drip out the exhaust when just sitting there when everything up to pressure?

Also - while heating from cold - the lhs guage should read 12bar then go no further by letting the expansion valve pass water to the drip cup. If its not hitting 12 then that also needs adjustment


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

NewboyUK said:


> Another easy way - get the lhs gauge up to pressure - then turn water supply off to the machine and take the braided hose off the manifold. If its letting water back out manifold - it needs sorting


Yeah, it totally did that when I was trying to fix the leak in the old manifold. Will check again next time I pull it out


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## NewboyUK (Jul 14, 2018)

That be why its dropping back to mains pressure. Only made up of 4 parts that cost about 15 quid max. 2 min job once you have the parts


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

NewboyUK said:


> That be why its dropping back to mains pressure. Only made up of 4 parts that cost about 15 quid max. 2 min job once you have the parts


I'm confused. You seem to be suggesting it should sit far above mains pressure when idle. That's not what I'd expect at all, and not my experience with other machines.

Please elaborate


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Video of pressure gauge. The machine was completely cold. 10 minutes later the gauge has dropped to 7

https://photos.app.goo.gl/S9FEEn3xq655j4FVA


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## jymbob (Aug 24, 2017)

Of course, it might just be a sticky needle...


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

If the machine is working well is despite the gauge readings, then the gauge may be just faulty/sticky as you suggest.

A new gauge is quite cheap & fairly easy to fit if you have a decent set of spanners.


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## caffeinegeek (Aug 29, 2018)

espressotechno said:


> If the machine is working well is despite the gauge readings, then the gauge may be just faulty/sticky as you suggest.
> 
> A new gauge is quite cheap & fairly easy to fit if you have a decent set of spanners.


The gauge accuracy on my 2004 machine was rubbish! The water pressure needle was stuck at 10 bar irrespective of whether there was a water connection or not and the steam pressure guage was reading 1/2Bar too high. You cannot rely on these old gauges to adjust the pump and steam pressure solenoid valve and it could by dangerous to do so.

I pulled my gauge apart and worked out how to calibrate it with my compressed air line and a 1% accurate digital pressure manometer.

With the faulty bad reading gauge I now know my pump can go to 13+ Bar but making a lot of noise. The green band on my old machine is up to 9Bar. If water pressure isn't being held during a coffee shot then the pump might be faulty (if you can't set it above 9-10Bar) or the water must be coming out somewhere other than through the group head?


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