# Fracino Piccino



## icom102

getting a Piccino are they ok ?


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## GCGlasgow

Yeh


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## DavecUK

You might want to mod it so that you can see when the brew boiler heating element is on, without something like this you cannot temperature surf and there can be a large difference in temperature approx 8 - 10C between the top and bottom of the cycle. The heating LED is for the steam boiler only. Other than they use decent enough components and give value for money. Portafilters are good and weighty, but can be a very tight fit.


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## icom102

How can i mod it?


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## icom102

Is the mod just so I know when the water boiler is ready ?


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## DavecUK

icom102 said:


> Is the mod just so I know when the water boiler is ready ?


For the brew boiler....yes, otherwise you will end up pulling your shots at 84C! You could plug it into a power meter I guess, but it's quite hard to tell which boiler is which as both heating elements are the same size, so you have to watch the led on the button thing you press.


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## Norvin

It's just as easy (or difficult) to add a PID to control the brew temp as it is for the Gaggia Classics and Sylvias.


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## icom102

sure there must be a way of telling what way does it work on other machines?


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## DavecUK

icom102 said:


> sure there must be a way of telling what way does it work on other machines?


if you find any other ways of telling...let me know


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## icom102

so how do people that has them manage?


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## DaveP

icom102 said:


> so how do people that has them manage?


They just wait till its hot and pull the shot with out worrying about the fine details... I should imagine


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## DavecUK

icom102 said:


> so how do people that has them manage?


most likely they don't realise that this is happening.


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## icom102

surely there is a heat up time ? what other dual boiler machines are out there what has a light to say when its ready?


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## DavecUK

icom102 said:


> surely there is a heat up time ? what other dual boiler machines are out there what has a light to say when its ready?


 Most of them have an indication of when they are ready, single boiler non HX machines have a boiler heating light and people use that to temperature surf to the correct part of the cycle. In effect that is what you have, a fairly primitive temperature sensor on the outside of the boiler, which has a lot of thermal lag. Other than that, which could be modded out it's a fair enough machine. If you have set your heart on it, buy it an mod it...or simply don't worry about the 10C or so variation in shot temperature depending on when you pull the shot.

Yes there is a heat up time as you say, that's a different issue entirely, I'm talking about shot stability once it's all warmed up say approx 20 mins.


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## DaveP

The Fracino Piccino was on my short list of 'next upgrade' (along with a few other oh so reflective glistening things of worship)

On the + side of reasons for it being on the short list was....

Its cheap

On the - side was...

It needs modding ££ out of the box for repeatable consistency (only really needed for chasing the god shot, if it indeed exists)

No hot water spout for drinks that need errrrr hot water (could revert to using the kettle, lol)


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## icom102

Got a Piccino today and the portafilter wont fit into the group the lugs on the side of the portafilter one is the right size the other seems to be to big has anyone else had problems like this?


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## moonray

I do keep hearing of people's having start-up issues with Fracinos. These are usually resolved by a very swift and helpful response from the manufacturer. I am wondering if this is something to worry about, or maybe we are just seeing the few that go wrong?


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## fattim

I've used mine daily fopr the past few months. Been delighted with it. I leave it to warm up for quite a long time (usually out of distraction) and when I come to it all works perfectly. Not pulled more than 4 consecutive shots from it, so not sure how it would handle quantity, but that's not what I bought it for. Naturally it's a world away from a Gaggia classic, but I way prefer it over my Expobar Leva DB. It has shown up the shortcomings in my grinder, so something small and cool is on my list - Mignon MK2 or Sette perhaps. Almost every cup I find myself thinking the "God Damn, Jimmy!" from Pulp Fiction. I'm a happy owner. On the downside the replacement filters are way too expensive and I suck at latte art.


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## DavecUK

fattim said:


> I've used mine daily fopr the past few months. Been delighted with it. I leave it to warm up for quite a long time (usually out of distraction) and when I come to it all works perfectly. Not pulled more than 4 consecutive shots from it, so not sure how it would handle quantity, but that's not what I bought it for. Naturally it's a world away from a Gaggia classic, but I way prefer it over my Expobar Leva DB. It has shown up the shortcomings in my grinder, so something small and cool is on my list - Mignon MK2 or Sette perhaps. Almost every cup I find myself thinking the "God Damn, Jimmy!" from Pulp Fiction. I'm a happy owner. On the downside the replacement filters are way too expensive and I suck at latte art.


Curious, in what ways do you prefer it over the Expobar Dual boiler?


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## fattim

It heats up quicker, its smaller and that makes it much easier to live with. I like the look of it (to be fair I do like the look of both). For me it doesn't lose out to the leva anywhere - the smaller boilers are an advantage for me, I don't use the hot water, so cool as it is as a feature and the fact that it balances the look, there's no function gain from having it, coffee equally good from both, so for me it wins.


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## DavecUK

fattim said:


> It heats up quicker, its smaller and that makes it much easier to live with. I like the look of it (to be fair I do like the look of both). For me it doesn't lose out to the leva anywhere - the smaller boilers are an advantage for me, I don't use the hot water, so cool as it is as a feature and the fact that it balances the look, there's no function gain from having it, coffee equally good from both, so for me it wins.


Hmm... *the heat up isn't really any faster than the E61, so be careful with that.* I have extensively tested the Piccino and a prototype based on the Piccino, especially with respect to shot temperatures and stability.

p.S. The Expobar DB is way more temperature stable.....night and day difference.


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## Bruce Boogie

I've had my Piccino about two and a half years ~ I LOVE IT!

Getting a Eureka really helped the coffee.

The Piccino looks good, it's small on the work top, the chrome always looks good and the coffee is smashing.

I'm not an expert, I know there must be better but that's like the old days of Hi Fi. You spend a fortune impressing your friends with woofers, tweeters and RMS output and then listen to all the imperfections on your LP. Coffee is a compromise!

I use RAVE Signature which I find reliable, tasty and I collect from their warehouse/shop. Seldom do I get a better cup of coffee when I'm out ~ that's good enough for mr as perfection would probably break the bank and fill the kitchen!

One of my favourite coffee shops is Miro in Hereford and they use Kimbo beans, no specialised little artisan roaster. David knows his coffee and his machine. He trains his staff well and should a coffee but less then great, he'll just make you another one ~ he cares about good coffee.


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## nekromantik

Im tempted to get Piccino on finance. Sadly cant stretch to Cherub price.

Its either this or Expobar Office Pulsar.


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## DaveP

> Expobar Office Pulsar


I have one.. it's very good (the look is an acquired taste, bit like a Gaggia classic on steroids)

Although the straight steam arm angle of the dangle wasn't to my liking and what with the machine being close to a wall on the left hand side, so I replaced it with an Expobar lined cool one from Crem.


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## coffeebean

What's your budget?

Andy



nekromantik said:


> Im tempted to get Piccino on finance. Sadly cant stretch to Cherub price.
> 
> Its either this or Expobar Office Pulsar.


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## nekromantik

coffeebean said:


> What's your budget?
> 
> Andy


It's 650 Max as I need grinder too.


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## coffeebean

Best price I could do you on a Piccino would be £650 delivered. That would be a semi auto machine (electronic one would be £750) and would be sent out to you direct from the factory


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## nekromantik

coffeebean said:


> Best price I could do you on a Piccino would be £650 delivered. That would be a semi auto machine (electronic one would be £750) and would be sent out to you direct from the factory


Thanks.

Do you accept Paypal finance options?

Currently in talks with seller on ebay as they accept it.


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## coffeebean

I accept Paypal payments so if you pay through Paypal credit I will just be paid in full by Paypal (pretty sure that's how it works!)


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## nekromantik

coffeebean said:


> I accept Paypal payments so if you pay through Paypal credit I will just be paid in full by Paypal (pretty sure that's how it works!)


Thanks will PM you if I want to go ahead.


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## ajohn

The Piccino is on my short list to see what dual boiler machines are like and probably to mod and tinker with at some point. Main reason is small boilers so wont take too long to heat up. The brew boiler is directly mounted on the group head so that will probably take longer. I can sort of see why they only show the steam boiler cycling - The 2 boilers are roughly speaking similar so are likely to heat up at more or less the same time. Not the group head though. It's going to take longer to get to the right temperature and add to the time it takes to heat the lot up. On the other hand the brew boiler is insulated so only time will tell.








Actually I weakened and bought one. It still has a few months on the warrantee. They reckon 10 to 15min to heat up and that can be speeded up by running hot water through the head. Steam is available much more quickly.

I do have a couple of questions as a result.

If water is run through to heat up the group I've already found that a pressurised filter basket makes a much better job of it on my BE. Anyone know of one that would fit? I wondered if the pod baskets were pressurised. If so one of those should do. Otherwise I need a source of one that will fit.

I saw a thread on bottomless portafilters. A model from HappyDonkey but it mentions changing the seal from the standard 8.5mm to 8mm. I don't really want to change that. Is this change really needed or is there one that wont need it? Or should I just buy the one off EspressoUnderground?

I've seen mention of cheaper sources of water filter in bulk but no details of the part itself. Can anyone shed any light on this?

Descaling. Seems this should be done professionally but the question on how to do it crops up and so far I haven't seen a reply. Some one mentioned that a spanner is needed - I have lots of those. I'd guess that the first step is to totally empty the boilers. How that is done would answer the question of how to get rid of the descaling solution in the steam boiler as well. I'd assume there is a relatively simple way to do it. Any clues?

The machine came with 2 filter baskets described as a single and a double. They do a range of them.Will all fit?







Not sure of how to tell which ones I have either? One of the attraction on the machine for me is that they do make a range of them.

John

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## Mrboots2u

...


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## Bruce Boogie

Like I said I'm super pleased with my Piccino.

If heating time is a problem it isn't ~ the Piccino doesn't take long but I try to give it 15/20 minutes (or get a time switch) I set alarms on my phone if its critical.

Do you mean the shallow clean the group basket? Only ever use it for cleaning.

Coffee making is a ritual rather than a timed task. You need to relax and enjoy the making ~ all this phaffing about does sound relaxing.

I found the filter too expensive and I use the £1.15 for 5 litres Waitrose water that was recommended ~ makes a great coffee.

Are you running this Piccino in a busy coffee bar? Descaling ~ don't worry if you are a domestic user 2/4/6 shots a day. Good water, not leaving the machine on all day for one shot in the morning and one in the evening will not scale it up for quite a while.

I have three baskets. The double (16g of coffee) is in use all of the time.

The single (8g) basket never comes out of the cupboard.

The closer basket comes out for cleaning the group head.

Keep it simple

Make it a pleasurable ritual.

Use good beans and the best grinder you can afford (my Mignon is a good match in price and size).

Keep your group clean.

Stay away from pods

Keep coffee making as one of life's pleasures, but always aim to improve your art.

ABOVE ALL ~ E N J O Y ~


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## ajohn

I've part answered my own questions.

The naked portafilter - Amazon specifically for Fracino. I hope.

Pressurised filter basket - Look like Gaggia may be an option but may need modifying. The portafiter fits into the rim of Fracino baskets. It probably wont if a Gaggia basket is used so may sit higher. That would also make ground coffee feasible - I don't use it but some one in the house does at times. Their choice.

That just leaves descaling and the water filter. A cheaper source and ---------------

If I pull the water filter out it just has a round spigot on the end. I've seen some images of filters for the machine that seem to be different. The machine is under 12months old so maybe they have modified it or some sort of adapter remains in place. Anyone know?

Thanks Bruce but I wasn't after advice. I've had plenty on the BE. I'll just add that bottle water generally comes from sources that are naturally mineralised. There is even a chance that B'ham water is softer than a lot of it which just leaves chlorine and a lack of some minerals and probably the addition of a trace of certain other minerals that may or may not be in bottled. For anyone interested but I would rather leave this subject there is this short pdf.

http://dwi.defra.gov.uk/consumers/advice-leaflets/hardness.pdf

John

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## Rich59

I'm new on here but have been a proper coffee fan for many years. When my Pavoni became porous I bought a Silvia and PIDd it. I was never happy but saw a piccino going really cheap so took a plunge. After replacing a pipe, cleaning and descaling (not difficult for a practical person) I kicked it up. Pretty impressed but quickly wanted to know when the boiler was heating. A quick rewire; there is a sensor wire which goes from the steam boiler live to the control unit and this switches the blue heating neon on. I just snipped this and rewired to the Brew boiler, perfect. I also put a switch on the front panel to turn off the steam boiler. Now I leave the machine on with the steam off and switch on steam before making a milk drink. It heats up quicker than a kettle.. i can now surf the brew boiler using the neon heater light. It's easy, the Piccino makes great coffee but when the heater first goes off it wants a 5 second flush to lower the temp. Here's what I do. Grind coffee in to Porta Filter then flush group for 5ish seconds. If light come on either brew coffee straight away before its fully heated or let light go off (20 secs) and then flush again for 5 secs and brew. If the light doesn't come on with the first flush I know its pretty mid temp and brew straight away. I promise you, this machine is a gem and makes regular god shots. I will PID it one day but the above is all one needs to do. I was going to buy a HX machine but I'd be flushing loads more through it and still not exactly aware where the brew water was temp wise. My PIDd silvia was inferior in every respect to the non PIDd Piccino. Rancillios boiler design sucks the water inlet is far too close to the brew outlet and so however stable the boiler temp is, the water going in to the puck is all over the place. Fracino put the water inlet of the Piccino in the middle of the brew boiler so even though cold water is entering, its not going straight to the puck. I love it, made 2 Americanos, 2 Lattés and 1 espresso as quick as I could grind last night. Do that with a Silvia.


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## Bruce Boogie

Rich59 said:


> I'm new on here but have been a proper coffee fan for many years. When my Pavoni became porous I bought a Silvia and PIDd it. I was never happy but saw a piccino going really cheap so took a plunge. After replacing a pipe, cleaning and descaling (not difficult for a practical person) I kicked it up. Pretty impressed but quickly wanted to know when the boiler was heating. A quick rewire; there is a sensor wire which goes from the steam boiler live to the control unit and this switches the blue heating neon on. I just snipped this and rewired to the Brew boiler, perfect. I also put a switch on the front panel to turn off the steam boiler. Now I leave the machine on with the steam off and switch on steam before making a milk drink. It heats up quicker than a kettle.. i can now surf the brew boiler using the neon heater light. It's easy, the Piccino makes great coffee but when the heater first goes off it wants a 5 second flush to lower the temp. Here's what I do. Grind coffee in to Porta Filter then flush group for 5ish seconds. If light come on either brew coffee straight away before its fully heated or let light go off (20 secs) and then flush again for 5 secs and brew. If the light doesn't come on with the first flush I know its pretty mid temp and brew straight away. I promise you, this machine is a gem and makes regular god shots. I will PID it one day but the above is all one needs to do. I was going to buy a HX machine but I'd be flushing loads more through it and still not exactly aware where the brew water was temp wise. My PIDd silvia was inferior in every respect to the non PIDd Piccino. Rancillios boiler design sucks the water inlet is far too close to the brew outlet and so however stable the boiler temp is, the water going in to the puck is all over the place. Fracino put the water inlet of the Piccino in the middle of the brew boiler so even though cold water is entering, its not going straight to the puck. I love it, made 2 Americanos, 2 Lattés and 1 espresso as quick as I could grind last night. Do that with a Silvia.


Thanks for this very useful and informative article!

I feel that my Piccino is a great domestic machine but after three years it might benefit from a descale, always thought that you had to send it back to Fracino. I'll have to have a chat about the baby Fracino and servicing.

Thanks again


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## Rich59

Bruce,

yes indeed, I'd be happy to give you instructions on how to de-scale, very easy with just a few tools.


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## ajohn

I found a way around worrying about temperature surfing. Pretty simple especially as I flush before running a shot anyway. Flush, dry the basket, grind and tamp and then pull the shot. Seems to work by turning the heating on so temperature is always close to the thermostat max when the shot is pulled. I haven't pulled a huge number of shots with it but this approach works for me so no point in adding a brew heating on indicator. It would have cost Fracino peanuts to add one so I was inclined to wonder why they didn't. They do insulate the brew boiler and it's pretty hot in the case due to the steam boiler so brew cools down slowly.

I mainly bought the machine to modify. That's a bit if and when. One change would be to the steam boiler to be able to select either steam or hot water. A simple electronic thermostat will do that and maybe a solenoid to divert water out of a spout rather than the steam wand. Maybe just unscrew the nozzle. Next thing would be brew temperature control. I do know something about control loops and have doubts about the suitability of PID on such a small boiler so would try other ways of doing it. Has to be said though that there are complications how ever it's done. Also side effects. It appears to infuse via initial water temperature for instance. A steady constant temperature wont do that.

John

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## Rich59

John,

unfortunately you'll get a couple of shots between boiler switch off and on so just flushing without the light will be hit and miss. The light is simply an indicator taken from the steam boiler element live side, post thermostat. Connecting that wire to the same position on the brew boiler wiring turns it into a brew boiler heat on light. I can only think the control unit is also used on some HX machines and Fracino just wired it the same on the Piccino. Daft! The little steam boiler manometer needle swings up immediately the heater is on, so no need for a steam heat light anyway. However, despite the little boiler, the piccino does seem to be very tolerant to temperature difference. Mine definitely makes better coffee towards the lower end of the temp swing though; like to see the light come on after I start the brew pull. PID would be no problem on the Piccino as far as I can see and I'm going to do it next. It will certainly make it a very desirable machine indeed.


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## RoA19

Just picked up a brand new Piccino at a terrific price. Saw one in action and was told to either let the machine warm up for 20-30 minutes or run hot water a few times through the head to bring it up to temperature. Looking forward to testing it out for myself towards the end of next week.


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## ajohn

Rich59 said:


> John,
> 
> unfortunately you'll get a couple of shots between boiler switch off and on so just flushing without the light will be hit and miss. The light is simply an indicator taken from the steam boiler element live side, post thermostat. Connecting that wire to the same position on the brew boiler wiring turns it into a brew boiler heat on light. I can only think the control unit is also used on some HX machines and Fracino just wired it the same on the Piccino. Daft! The little steam boiler manometer needle swings up immediately the heater is on, so no need for a steam heat light anyway. However, despite the little boiler, the piccino does seem to be very tolerant to temperature difference. Mine definitely makes better coffee towards the lower end of the temp swing though; like to see the light come on after I start the brew pull. PID would be no problem on the Piccino as far as I can see and I'm going to do it next. It will certainly make it a very desirable machine indeed.


I expected variation due to temperature but didn't find any. All I did was flush to heat the portafilter and basket after the grouphead had heated up. Remove. grind the beans, add and tamp and then pull the shot.







I've no idea what stable condition I achieved.

Personally as I intended to modify it I wouldn't try PID. Something simpler, an electronic thermostat with a lot less hysteresis. There are several around for a few quid such as

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2x-W1209-12V-DC-Digital-Temperature-Controller-Board-Mini-Electronic-Temper-H5W2-/182828574999?_trksid=p2349526.m4383.l4275.c10

Details on using them can be found on the web. The main issue is heat overshoot when the heating is switched off but Fracino are already coping with that using the mechanical thermostat. These units have the facility to calibrate the sensor at a specific temperature. One oddity - they lock up if the over limit setting is reached and have to be reset to recover. The existing mechanical limit stat should cut in before that would be a problem.

PID sounds great but for one under what conditions do you calibrate it - static or when a shot is being pulled ? The constants would need to differ for each condition. Maybe some one will eventually modify the arduino PID controller one day to allow that to happen but that may not be feasible. Precise heating of a small boiler can't be very aggressive due to temperature overshoot so as I see it accepting a reduced temperature change is a better option.

Some info on the part

http://usefulldata.com/cheap-12v-temperature-controller-xh-w1209-with-display-and-probe-review/

Some variants may use a PT100 type sensor. The time limit is intended to stop the things hunting when the hysteresis is at low levels. I'd couple it up to a zero switching triac.

I wont be modifying mine - main reason is that I want hot water and adding that in the space available wouldn't be easy. One idea was to use the steam boiler at a suitable temperature using the same sort of control.

John

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## ChrisKnox

Pretty sure you can rig up a digital thermometer in a modified portafilter setup- then flush out the boiler with fresh water until the temperature reduces to what you want.

Chris


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