# Tempted by Sage DTP or Bambino but...



## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

Hi all,

I have been looking for a Rancilo Silvia or Gaggia Classic used but I am also tempted by both The Duo Temp Pro and The Bambino. My only real concern is the availability of spares for self repair of these machines. Even though they are entry level machines they are still a relatively expensive investment for some of us and I would feel much better if I could find a reliable source of parts before purchasing. I have looked around and I cannot seem to find one. Does anyone have a supplier or are the parts simply not available?

Keith


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Some parts may be available if you give them a call.

When does this "right to repair" law done in to effect. That should help massively.

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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

My understanding of the EU right to repair was that it only applies to large appliances, lighting and TV's so will not apply to small appliances. In any case I was really looking for a third part supplier of spares as I would hate to rely on sage themselves as they clearly don't want the machines to be repairable or they would make finding spares easy.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Sage have always had a terrible parts department regardless of what spares they have haha.

If it helps at all, I bought a faulty sage that wasn't pumping water. It only needed a descale. I suspect a lot of bad press could also be from bad owners.

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Any of Sage's engineers will tell people that they spend a lot of time descaling the machines. They use Puly's but will tell people they should use Sage's. They will also tell people to do it monthly what ever Sage say. I've found that the DB descale feature isn't often enough when it's been set up with a test strip. Due to that it accumulates as a bit is left each time. Very easy to cure. I posted how a while ago.

The real problem is that people buy espresso machines without being aware of the scale. Sage's manuals seem to have improved recently. Maybe all machines come with a hardness test strip and there may be comments such as past some hardness find another source of water. This is even with the new filter.

Where Sage machines tend to score is value for money - other than maybe when they just add a touch screen. One odd areas particularly on the BE and the DTP is that there is a way of getting better coffee out of them. Maybe be true of the newer thermojet machines as well. But people make good coffee with them anyway. Lots are also sold. All that crops up on here usually is people who have a problem. Few post and say what a wonderful machine.

Anyway people have repaired them. Sage do not make their own solenoids for instance but there is a high chance that all a faulty one needs it cleaning - why - scale. If they back flushed often enough it may have remained clear. Some parts can only come from Sage. Similar aspects can crop up on others. Boilers sometimes get replaced for instance - no idea why. Heaters too which may be welded into the boiler to keep costs down.

To be honest when some one mentions the gaggia I always think the same thing. Ok buy one and soon want to alter the brew pressure and fit a PID controller, Also that all of Sage's machines are easy to descale. Thermothingy machines need that more often than boiler machines but on the other hand it is really easy to do. I also do understand the limitations of PID.

So this may be read as if you don't want a Sage rather than buying a Gaggia buy something else.  You may gather that I'm not a fan of them.

John

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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

joey24dirt said:


> Sage have always had a terrible parts department regardless of what spares they have haha.


 That does not fill me with confidence.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Honestly I have a Gaggia classic (without PID) and had a sage DTP next to it. And despite the slightly low temp on the DTP it was in a different league in terms of the coffee it produced. An absolute steal for the money.

I now have a barista pro. Which has some added fancy features that I am enjoying playing with.

The raniclio can produce a fantastic cup of coffee. But I've rarely seen one used that well without a bit of modification and a fair amount of practice and expertise. 
The DTP produces the best coffee out of the packet by far.

My personal advice would be.

Get a DTP. learn how to get the very best of out your grinder, beans etc. etc.

Then if you love coffee a lot then upgrade to something in the £1000 range, with a dual boiler or similar as without that jump I don't think you'll be making much better coffee than the DTP


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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

ajohn said:


> Any of Sage's engineers will tell people that they spend a lot of time descaling the machines. They use Puly's but will tell people they should use Sage's. They will also tell people to do it monthly what ever Sage say. I've found that the DB descale feature isn't often enough when it's been set up with a test strip. Due to that it accumulates as a bit is left each time. Very easy to cure. I posted how a while ago.
> 
> The real problem is that people buy espresso machines without being aware of the scale. Sage's manuals seem to have improved recently. Maybe all machines come with a hardness test strip and there may be comments such as past some hardness find another source of water. This is even with the new filter.
> 
> ...


 John,

I really like the features of the sage for the money. They do seem better overall than the Gaggia but I can buy every part for the Gaggia so in 3 years if the boiler packs up I can fix it cheaply and easily whereas if the same happens with the sage then I have to buy another which is not good for my wallet or the environment.

I understand that most issues may be fixed or prevented by descaling regularly but it's the time it's not due to scale that I worry about.

This would be a non issue if Sage made Their spares readily available.

Even so I am still tempted by the sage machines as they are so nice.


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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Honestly I have a Gaggia classic (without PID) and had a sage DTP next to it. And despite the slightly low temp on the DTP it was in a different league in terms of the coffee it produced. An absolute steal for the money.
> 
> I now have a barista pro. Which has some added fancy features that I am enjoying playing with.
> 
> ...


 First hand advice is great ,thanks. I have been leaning toward the Bambino rather than the DTP due to size and WAF, It just looks better though the DTP isn't ugly. How different are these machines other than size?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I've had DTP and bambino, but now on the DB.

DTP requires more input from the user, whereas the bambino will do it all for you if that's how you want to use it... volumetric buttons, auto milk steaming, it even has a 3-way solenoid to vent the portafilter.

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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

joey24dirt said:


> I've had DTP and bambino, but now on the DB.
> 
> DTP requires more input from the user, whereas the bambino will do it all for you if that's how you want to use it... volumetric buttons, auto milk steaming, it even has a 3-way solenoid to vent the portafilter.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 So does that mean I cannot do things manually on the Bambino if I want or does it mean I have the choice. All the reviews I have seen they let the machine froth the milk but I assumed I could do it myself if desired.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The Bambino seems to be internally the same as the BE variants as far as coffee brewing goes. The BE variants include those with thermojet. The DTP is thermocoil and a much as possible removed from the BE. There is also the Infuser - a BE less grinder. That can be found in the UK.

You have to notice the word seems. It's not unusual to see espresso machines that are tricky to define internally. Sage though don't like making parts for different machines so will always tend to use the same set up in all of them where they can.

On joey's post it's very easy to set the volumetric machines for pure manual use which is what many use on all sorts of machines. Just program a shot that is biggerer than any that are likely to be needed. I can't really state how big a shot to program but I would expect 300g of water portafilter off to cover everything people may do with them. Maybe more in extreme cases. I'd need each machine variant in front of me to be sure as several things may have been changed. They can also be used volumetrically but that may mean more flexibility on ratios and shot time to achieve fictitious ideals often mentioned on the web. The main aim is an enjoyable taste. That may need more work than people realise finding out what the ideals are to achieve that taste. All they see when they buy a coffee is a grinder loading a portafilter, tamp and shove it into the machine. They don't see the work needed to get what comes out.

John

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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Keith1968 said:


> So does that mean I cannot do things manually on the Bambino if I want or does it mean I have the choice. All the reviews I have seen they let the machine froth the milk but I assumed I could do it myself if desired.


You can do it manually too, but the wand is fixed to moving straight up and down that's all. The angle would take a bit of getting used to but would be fine.

Same with the volume buttons, just stop the shot when you like. Weighing output would be tricky though as not much room for scales.

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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

@ajohn Ah thanks, that is what I had hoped. I really like the look of the infuser but I cannot find even an import for sale here.

@joey24dirt I had not thought about being able to fit scales in, wonder what others do.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> . Weighing output would be tricky though as not much room for scales.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Have they reduced mug clearance on the Bambino or any of the others ? I'm rather glad they can accept the rather tall 300ml mugs I use but if I used the usual height mugs I'm pretty sure that the usual cheap scales could be used.

Suspect the real answer in this area anyway is bottomless portafilters. And of course some change the one that comes with the Bambino.

John

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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

ajohn said:


> Have they reduced mug clearance on the Bambino or any of the others ? I'm rather glad they can accept the rather tall 300ml mugs I use but if I used the usual height mugs I'm pretty sure that the usual cheap scales could be used.
> 
> Suspect the real answer in this area anyway is bottomless portafilters. And of course some change the one that comes with the Bambino.
> 
> ...


 Is it easy to find portafilters that fit these? I would like a bottomless filter but thought it might not be possible on these.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

https://www.thecoffeemate.co.uk/p/coffee-machine-sage-the-infuser-bes840/?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5-640fKK5wIVDLTtCh0Scw5tEAQYASABEgL28_D_BwE

I sometimes suspect that people just don't look. One of there engineers mentioned fixing them now and again. They probably don't offer it much as there can only be a small reduction in price compared with the BE. Also in many ways the BE is a more sophisticated bean to cup machine - lakeland sell it as such.  It needs more work to use effectively than certain others.

Also as it's Sage it probably comes from the same main importer

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Keith1968 said:


> Is it easy to find portafilters that fit these? I would like a bottomless filter but thought it might not be possible on these.


 If you can't diy one ask Joey to do it for you.  Mind you he may be fed up of doing them.

John

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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I have a bambino - I think it's a great machine. When warmed properly it makes great espresso, even with light roasts.

Clearance is fine for a mug even with scales underneath.

I splashed out and got the Pullman naked pf from Australia though I know others have done DIY

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## Uriel4953 (Dec 1, 2019)

I had Lakeland price match john lewis when i had bought my Sage DTP before xmas for the 3 year guarantee. Still isn't user repairable parts but is piece of mind for 3 years at least.


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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

@ajohn You know I had read a post about the Breville Infuser and the discussion that it wasn't available in the UK but that it was in parts of europe so rather than sage infuser I was searching for Breville or Gastroback among other things. As the infuser is clearly available I may have to do some overtime and get one of those instead.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Keith1968 said:


> @ajohn You know I had read a post about the Breville Infuser and the discussion that it wasn't available in the UK but that it was in parts of europe so rather than sage infuser I was searching for Breville or Gastroback among other things. As the infuser is clearly available I may have to do some overtime and get one of those instead.


 I may as well mention what I think is one of the 2 drawbacks on these machines - basket sizes. There are only the 2 the machine comes with. La Spaziale baskets can be modified to fit but hold more on the Sage machines. A pod basket for instance holds about 14g.

The other is preheating the thermothingy. Maybe the jet types don't need it. I'd still suggest a shot through an empty pressurised basket preferably the single. Seems one other noticed the effect and uses a short blast of steam. For milk drinks steam first. Brew flushing isn't a good idea then as it will cool the thermothingy. The empty basket takes care of both aspects. Can't really blame Sage for this it's down to what PID can achieve in practice. Similar problems can crop up on machines that use on boilers.

 Basket capacity problems - do even more overtime and buy a DB. Those though hold more grinds than others for the same basket size. In many ways it's not that easy a machine to upgrade from even though it's famous for pucks sticking to the shower screen. I'm not keen on Italian shiny bling machines so for me an upgrade is really tricky. On these the usual problems are user serviceable but at some point they may not be. At that point I'll probably sell it for spares / maybe keep some parts and buy another. Part of this is heat up time even though I know that electricity usage when machines are left on are not as high as some may think but on the other hand they could do way way better in terms of insulating them.

LOL So some one buys an infuser. There is some sense in that. Next comes a grinder - that is tricky. Much worse than a machine in some respects.

John

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## Keith1968 (Jan 3, 2020)

ajohn said:


> I may as well mention what I think is one of the 2 drawbacks on these machines - basket sizes. There are only the 2 the machine comes with. La Spaziale baskets can be modified to fit but hold more on the Sage machines. A pod basket for instance holds about 14g.
> 
> The other is preheating the thermothingy. Maybe the jet types don't need it. I'd still suggest a shot through an empty pressurised basket preferably the single. Seems one other noticed the effect and uses a short blast of steam. For milk drinks steam first. Brew flushing isn't a good idea then as it will cool the thermothingy. The empty basket takes care of both aspects. Can't really blame Sage for this it's down to what PID can achieve in practice. Similar problems can crop up on machines that use on boilers.
> 
> ...


 I am don't really understand what you are saying about the basket sizes as I have no experience with espresso machines whatsoever.

I would love to have the DB but there is no way my wife would go for that without a real battle. I might be able to swing the Infuser but saying that what do I gain over the Bambino? From what I can see just a pressure gauge and the ability to raise the temperature a little but also lose the auto milk frothing which my wife would like. I have heard these now come with the pressurised and un-pressurised baskets?

Also I like the idea of the Smart Grinder Pro as it looks nice with the Bambino and other Sage machines but is it any good? I would like a Grinder that compliments the Machine.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

ajohn said:


> I may as well mention what I think is one of the 2 drawbacks on these machines - basket sizes. There are only the 2 the machine comes with. La Spaziale baskets can be modified to fit but hold more on the Sage machines. A pod basket for instance holds about 14g.
> 
> The other is preheating the thermothingy. Maybe the jet types don't need it. I'd still suggest a shot through an empty pressurised basket preferably the single. Seems one other noticed the effect and uses a short blast of steam. For milk drinks steam first. Brew flushing isn't a good idea then as it will cool the thermothingy. The empty basket takes care of both aspects. Can't really blame Sage for this it's down to what PID can achieve in practice. Similar problems can crop up on machines that use on boilers.
> 
> ...


 What's wrong with the baskets on the sage? The double basket easily holds 20-21g of a finely ground lightish roast. Surely that's enough?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

20g can be too much and I don't think Sage reckon it holds that much anyway but it can be too much even then and there are limits on the minimum that can be used. Anyway I don't see this as being that important. It's just a fact that can matter. The preheating is another matter. The difference it made for me was not marginal.

Frankly I don't really want to get into grinders. I did come across a web page on this that was IMHO better than typical comments that may crop up. It was some sort of blog that reckoned that grinder price should be some proportion of machine price. The proportion decreasing with increasing machine price but say some one bough a £1000 machine it might suggest they should buy a £500 grinder. Lots and lots can be spent on grinders. Where that gets tricky is that some aspects do have an effect but people could pay for things that don't really achieve anything when it comes to taste.

The cheap view is that they must be capable of grinding at espresso levels. The SGP can. A Graef I tried couldn't, not sensibly anyway so I sent it back. Other in this price range pass. Also the next step up as decided to skip it. I doubt if the usual mignon people buy would achieve anything in my own terms.

A number of people will suggest buying a used commercial grinder and weighing beans in.That finishes up looking like this or slight variations of the same basic idea. The black thing at the top is a camera folding rubber lens hood. 3 stage ones are best.






For this sort of use a grinder with a funnel rather than a spout is the best option. The one in the video has been made from a funnel sold under the name of octopus funnel on ebay. That usually brings up the cheapest. These grinder are stepless but it's not that easy to make very small adjustments.

You might get more opinions and options in the grinder section of the forum.  Some one on here once told me that I just couldn't possibly make good coffee with a grinder as cheap as an SGP. I'd beg to differ but grinders can make a difference - at a cost.

John

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