# Mazzer bean-weight 4000



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I started messing with tampers and other items a few months back in order to weigh down my beans but ran into issues with things getting stuck so I started thinking.... I picked up some free CAD software and measured up the grinder and started creating. I then sent off the file onto the interwebs for printing.

My 3d printed parts arrived today and considering it's my first attempt at anything like this they came out pretty well. I need to do some sanding before the prototype will be fully operational as I must not have used large enough gaps between the parts, with some sanding they now fit together but things are still a little tight.

Anyway I've had a very quick dry run and it works pretty well using manual pressure on the top (needed at present as it's a tight fit)

The idea with this version was to make the inner throat wall straight instead of sloped which was causing issues with beans getting stuck in the weights path.



















https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/--ggZb8Vg21c/Ut8Dmkl4XhI/AAAAAAAAQYE/pwa0GxMYFmk/w415-h553-no/IMG_20140121_232821.jpg

Next I wanged in a berocca tube and added the beans (tested up to 23g so far).










Finally the "ramming rod"  fits inside the throat and around the berocca tube.










Power on the grinder and press down and it mashed through 23g pretty bloody quickly. The Rod goes down to the base of the grind chamber so the beans are weighed for as long as possible and they can't bounce back out of the burrs.

I have some ideas for a second version such as measuring properly and also sloping the throat mod outwards at the top to look like a mini hopper, this would allow easier addition of beans.

Quite pleased so far, the idea is that the throat and berocca (or suitable replacement) are permanent (all be them trimmed to fit properly) so you just need to remove the ramming rod, add the beans and replace the rod. Also the Rod would hold the weight to make it fully automatic during the grind









More sanding and updates tomorrow.

Cheers

Spence


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Way more elegant than my tamper, gaffer-tape and cut up showergel bottles. haha


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

nice job dude, will have to have a look at the prototype to see how we could get it fabricated...


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Nice work. Is it a bit tricky to get the beans in with that design? Would a smaller diameter lens hood work as a hopper perhaps?


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Way more elegant than my tamper, gaffer-tape and cut up showergel bottles. haha


More elegant maybe, more effective TBC. You design is fully working


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> nice job dude, will have to have a look at the prototype to see how we could get it fabricated...


Yeah, I'll get it working properly and we can have a look at the options, it doesn't look too bad the the moment but if it can be better then I'd be up for that. Let's see how well I can get it working for though.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Nice work. Is it a bit tricky to get the beans in with that design? Would a smaller diameter lens hood work as a hopper perhaps?


It's a little fiddly at the moment. Knowing what I know now I'd have made it step out again at the top of the throat to act as a mini hopper.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Great work there Spence! Apart from the grinding speed did you notice any difference in the grinds??

Would something like this fit the SJ?


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Daren said:


> Great work there Spence! Apart from the grinding speed did you notice any difference in the grinds??
> 
> Would something like this fit the SJ?


Not really studied the grinds yet, I was out last night so didn't have long to play, my testing was mainly around whether or not it actually worked and sanding the parts to make them fit









I've not seen a SJ but I imagine it could be scaled to fit. The issues that you may have is around the actual space left for beans in the throat cavity once it's installed, that it presuming that space is tighter on the SJ. If you take a snap of the inside of the throat cavity then I'll have a think.

Cheers

Spence


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MK2 of the throat mod will probably look more like this. Need to pick up a rounded file from homebase tomorrow to smooth off a few edges.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

So I got my file and went to work on this tonight. I have a working model, no weight as yet so I'm currently just pushing down on the top of the ramming rod. I've not officially timed this thing yet but with some downward pressure it chews through 20g pretty damn quickly! More testing at the weekend.

I made my first drink using it today. Yesterday my shots were taking too long (21g -> 28g in 40secs) so I dropped from 21g beans to 20g and moved the collar on the mazzer a mm or two to open it up a bit. I inserted the parts, fed in the beans and ground them down using pressure. I used my usual doing technique into my VST, everything looked good.

First pour totally choked the machine, I mean it went from 40 sec pour to one drip in the cup after about 40 secs, even though I'd lowered the quantity of beans and open up the grinder as well.

For the second shot I opened up the grinder by about 1.5cm and stuck 20g of beans back in, ground again, same prep. The shot was still a little slow 20g out in 40 secs. I was expecting it to taste like crap but it tasted nice and smooth, yeah it was a little bitter but it was think and creamy and quite enjoyable.

So that's as far as I got tonight as I had to cook dinner, the thing actually works which is a surprise. It still needs some tweaking and I don't really understand the significance of the slower pour (I guess this could be due to a more even grind consistency across the board) and until I get it dialled to hit a decent brew ratio I guess I have no idea if it's made things better or worse. Either way I'm looking forward to a weekend of testing!

Spence


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Typically single dosing requires a finer grind, I noticed this when first getting the Mini-e and playing with full hopper v single dose. Your downwards pressure is replicating a full hopper - thus you are finding you need to be more coarse on the grind. This doesnt mean youre under extracting tho. The average particle size is probably lower. Its a win win situation


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

That Gary, interesting indeed









Does anyone have any ideas for something around 1KG that I could use to add weight to my prototype? Ideally it would be as small as possible.

Cheers

Spence


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Once you get the prototype how you want it, I should be able yo get a brass cylinder made up


----------



## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

This is why I love this forum. Sometimes it's like reading a good thriller and you can't wait to get to the end to see how it all turns out....if you know what I mean.

No really, I'm actually amazed at people's persistence, ingenuity and skill but above all willingness to share on here. What also amazes me is how you lot even come up with improvements that the actual original designers and manufacturers either haven't thought of or simply don't deem them important enough to consider.

Admittedly in this instance it is for modifying a commercial product to suit a home environment, but something more fundamental to grinding coffee that effects the outcome such as static, does not seem to even appear on many manufacturers radar.

Anyway, I doff my cap to you and look forward to getting to the final chapter, if only for selfish reasons in that if it all works, then maybe one could be made available for my make of grinder too.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

So things have been progressing slowly with this project due to other commitments but it is progressing. I'm just in the process of putting together a second design that takes into account lessons learned from the various models I had printed during phase one. This is the current design I am working on.










Changes from the original design are

1. Added mini-hopper to make adding beans easier

2. Created a new piece to replace the berocca tube and to cover the central spindle, this has a cone on the top to further improve the loading of beans

3. Tweaked the internal dimensions of the main section to increase the usable space within the throat, this allows the smoother flow of beans under weight and thus the beans reach the burrs faster

I'm hoping to be able to get this printed at work as it will get expensive to have to go out to a specialist company each time. I think that this should be a pretty final version though.

The first prototype using manually applied pressure will grind 21g beans in 5-6 seconds as opposed to 9-10 seconds without, I did a video but it's pretty crap quality so I've not uploaded it. If there is interest then I'll put it up here.

Spence


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

The vid would be ace just to see the thing in action!

Great idea btw, top marks.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Let's see the vid! I'm intrigued.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Ok here are the vids, I tried to start the grinder on each clip as close to 10secs as possible and you have to listen for when they are done. The one with the mod still makes a slight whirring noise after the beans have all gone as the shaft is rubbing on the berocca tube. The test is completely un-scientific at this stage but it gives a good idea of what's possible.

Both clips are 21g of sainsbury's standard coffee beans which are no good for espresso at all but I was running low on good quality beans so I didn't want to use any up for the sake of it.

No weight

[video=youtube;BxPU4y-rFuo]






I've been making all of my drinks with this since I fitted it and the results have been very consistent. The main difference, as mentioned previously, is that the grind had to be opened up significantly which hopefully signifies a more consistent particle size.

Spence


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Looking good! If the next prototype works i'd be interested in buying one.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Genius spence love it


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Looking good! If the next prototype works i'd be interested in buying one.


Once the dimensions are all finalised I'll speak to Coffeechap and see if we can get the plunger made from something heavy so that no manual intervention is required and thus will allow for some serious thwacking. This will probably not be so much of an issue for me as I'm also working on a possible doser replacement as well, details to follow as I flesh it out









Spence


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Wow. This could really be a solution to single dosing.

Amazing job.

I'd def be interested in a Super Jolly version (unless I decide to upgrade to a Royal!).


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Milanski said:


> Wow. This could really be a solution to single dosing.
> 
> Amazing job.
> 
> I'd def be interested in a Super Jolly version (unless I decide to upgrade to a Royal!).


It works really well here, can anyone post me some pics of the inside of the throat on the SJ, it might be just a case of scaling it down.


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

on it's way...


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

ugh, phone just died.

Will load a pic up when it's juiced up a bit...


----------



## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

View attachment 5273


Sorry, bit of a crap shot but I can't get enough light down there to focus the shot.

Does that help any??

The inside edge of the whole section you see there is 6cms. I can't get in low enough with my wooden ruler to measure the inside of the throat.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Im up for buying one also (cost dependant) The modded tamper is doing me proud but needs a bit more weight I think


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Milanski said:


> View attachment 5273
> 
> 
> Sorry, bit of a crap shot but I can't get enough light down there to focus the shot.
> ...


Looking at that I think the easiest way to achieve a similar effect would be to bulk out the throat to make it the same diameter as the burr chamber entrance. You would then fill the tube with beans and compress with a solid flat rod. There are a some decent ebay stores that sell acrylic tube that may do the job depending on the dimensions you require. Once you have bulked out the throat the weight should be pretty simple to create.

The Royal is more complex because the throat is both stepped and tapered at various points. The problem with this is that whatever you use to weigh down the beans can only be as wide as the thinnest section of throat at the bottom. This in turn leads to space up the side of it that beans/bean fragments can fit into and it just jams everything up, that's why I decided to make the throat wall straight and then the weight can be the same size and no beans get stuck. I had parts made to test both and each design had a couple of variations but this works best.

If you can't find the bits on eBay then let me know and I'll see if I can knock something up to help, do we know anybody near Brum who owns a SJ that I could measure?

Spence


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

if the Mini-e is the same throat size as the SJ then the solution exists. I used a seven-seas cod-liver /vitamin bottle cut and wedged in and a berocca lid + champagne cork-cage like a parachute, it sat 1mm above the centre bolt. Blue tack added the weight.


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Spence - add me to the list of potential customers if you get a working SJ solution! I'm loving this!!!


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I thought that you guys might be a bored as I am waiting to hear about the progress of this... Well at this stage there has been little progress. Since the 3d print costs are not insignificant I am waiting on a friend who is expecting a printer to be delivered in the pretty near future. This will mean that I should be able to turn around prototype parts pretty quickly and at a much lower cost.

Instead of sitting around and doing nothing I decided to start work on a new mod for the Royal, I'm essentially looking to replace the doser and details are sketchy at the moment but I've run some "Blue Peter" style prototypes at home and the results are good. I'm still trying to picture how it will all hang together but I thought I share part of the design with you as it stands today.



















So what you have here is only part of the mod but is essentially a new "hand-free" Portafilter holder for the front of the grinder. Directly above the centre of the basket there is another piece in which a jam funnel (waitrose £3 job) is held. It's early days at the moment and the item that will actually replace the doser above all of this is still yet to be decided upon (I do have some ideas). The main goal of this design is to remove all clumps. I would also like to see great distribution and minimal fuss dosing for single dosers like myself.

This one may never see the light of day but I thought I'd share it anyway









Spence


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I know where you're going with this : )

The Sage grinder has a detachable portafilter holder which clips on and off. It could be incorporated into a prototype some how


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Also for simplicity and effectiveness the way the RR55-OD deals with clumps and static is to have a very thin flexible metal flap over the exit chute from the burr chamber and when bent up very slightly you get a nice clump free stream of coffee running down and out of the funnel into the centre of the portafilter with no static issues. The flap is screwed through the funnel and into the grinder body so earths any static that way.

It also has a clip for hands free pf holding while it grinds, which is simply an L shaped piece of metal with a slot cut into the longer part of the L and then an allen screw which holds this to the fork assembly with the short edge of the L being the bit that holds the edge of the pf in place and you just adjust it for your pf height.

Sometimes simplicity is the key rather than an over engineered solution with more parts to fail or go wrong.

View attachment 5341


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The exit from the Royal burrs is -¬

It would be better if it were \

Some industrial powered dremmel needed!


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

ah ok the exit from the RR55 burrs is an open rectangle but the throat has a slight throw to the right, hence the aluminium tape, other than that its a straight line from the burrs to the exit point and that flap and has a gasket between the funnel and grinder body to stop grounds getting out there. That flap basically is instead of that screen the Mazzers use and unlike that actually works lol.

I'll try and pop a vid up somewhere of it in action.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its the edge of the burrs to the ledge which is the problem for retention, however a pulse or two usually leaves only 0.5-1g which then quickly gets brushed out.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Use the Dremel and get shot of the ledge lol seems a strange way to design a grind path.

Alternatively is there no way of levelling the edge off with an insert of some sort or does it drop to the ledge and the ledge leads to the exit?


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In the first page of this thread, the 2nd photo down shows clearly the grind path


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Ah ok so you mean the lip where the doser meets the body of the grinder? if thats so the RR55 funnel fits absolutely level with the exit from the burrs and has a gasket to make sure no coffee gets into the gap. Like this:

  

2014-01-31 17.01.36 by charliejeal, on Flickr


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

No I mean this ledge


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Ah ok I just wasn't sure from the photo,the exit from the burrs on the RR55 is just a straight line with the exit itself being slightly flared, seems like a bad design idea in the Royal, can you not grind it down with a Dremel? I keep getting tempted to try and polish the exit on the RR55 with my Dremel lol.


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

It looks like there's enough material underneath the 'ledge' to dremel/file it down a bit.

   (excuse my royal he's stripped for painting)

You would also need to snip or dremel out some metal from the Doser where it meets the ledge but I can't imagine that would be too difficult. The only thing is its a very permanent mod which I wouldn't want to try unless I knew the results would be worth it.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It would if Telfon/anti stick coating was applied also.....


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

lookseehear said:


> It looks like there's enough material underneath the 'ledge' to dremel/file it down a bit.
> 
> (excuse my royal he's stripped for painting)
> 
> You would also need to snip or dremel out some metal from the Doser where it meets the ledge but I can't imagine that would be too difficult. The only thing is its a very permanent mod which I wouldn't want to try unless I knew the results would be worth it.


I totally cleaned mine when i got it in December but had the doser off tonight to play about with it and there's some amount of grinds inside the machine, especially on the plate that sits under the motor. If you look inside yours from that angle it is accumulating grinds?


----------



## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

jeebsy said:


> I totally cleaned mine when i got it in December but had the doser off tonight to play about with it and there's some amount of grinds inside the machine, especially on the plate that sits under the motor. If you look inside yours from that angle it is accumulating grinds?


Yes there were some accumulating there but a quick hoover and it's looking clean again. I think grounds get everywhere with these things!


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I was hoping it would stay fairly clean....might need to give it a going over with the Dyson tomorrow


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Interesting info on the grind path, is that part replaceable at all? If not then it's a bit of a leap of faith for me









It would be cool if the beans dropped straight into the doser, even with a slope I'm not sure how well it would work. I still think some grinds get stuck under the burr carrier and hence the extra pulse needed at the end. It's not really clear why Mazzer would make this channel flat, seems a bit strange even in a commercial environment.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'll try and get some photos next time I have the RR55 stripped down for a cleaning but basically on that it has an almost imperceptible slope from the burrs straight through to the exit hole where there is a gasket between the funnel and the grinder body to stop the grounds getting inside like Lookseehear's Royal. Yeah it seemed to me to be very peculiar way to have a grinds path hence my earlier confusion, is it the same on any Mazzer? It would explain why you get the cubes of coffee sometimes on electronic models, the Mini-E in particular, as grinds back up caused by the grid.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Could always use epoxy resin to rebuild anything dremel'd away, I dont think it would be anything other than an improvement, you'd have better access to the grind path, no doubt the 'pulse' might still be needed but with anti-popcorn or 4000 maybe not so much


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Mazzer design is dated now


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> The Mazzer design is dated now


It still seems an odd design to put something else restrictive inline with even if it is only a grid of sorts, when the Brasilia design is so much simpler and more effective for the on demand version. I guess they decided it was easier to bolt a funnel onto the front of existing designs rather than rethink the grinder bodies. Maybe we have had a breakthrough here lol.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Mazzer grinders are not catering to single-dosing home users, nor (even now) catering in reality to specialty coffee. Where they excel is built quality and reliability...oh and amazing possibilities when it comes to modding ; )


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

True and the RR55-OD was a stupid expensive grinder in its day and as you say designs have moved on.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If you get a Royal for 300 odd quid Id argue you cannot get a better flat burr grinder for the money. The grind quality is amazing


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If you get a Royal for 300 odd quid Id argue you cannot get a better flat burr grinder for the money. The grind quality is amazing


I wouldn't argue with that at all Gary, just that dosers and thwacking just aren't for me and I certainly wouldn't turn my nose up at a Royal-E. I certainly believe that the RR55-OD is the best value used on demand grinder you are likely to find, other than infrequent crazy bargains. It would take a Royal-E or a K30 Vario at minimum to tempt me to get rid of the RR55


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It would take an EK43 for me (if staying single dosing ) The new NS clima pro is very impressive , Dale was saying the grind setting barely needs to change even with different coffees , that steady temperature has benefits . The distribution was impressive and constant.

Notice the 2 grinders I mention are 2k !


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm not likely to ever, barring a lottery win, have the money available for something like that though. I wonder what the new Mazzer will be like.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Annoyingly if it wasn't for certain 'issues' my family is facing I would probably have an EK43 on my bench. grrrrr


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Annoyingly if it wasn't for certain 'issues' my family is facing I would probably have an EK43 on my bench. grrrrr


Would you be able to reach to put the beans in if it was up on a bench lol.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It would be a mini hopper and shortened footprint version (aka John gordon heeeeelllllpppp me !)


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

So I've had the dosing chamber off this morning and the exit chute is actually sloped by a couple of mm over it's length. Maybe there is something that could be sprayed on to make the coffee glide into the doser?

On a side note I'm thinking that with the weight on the beans we are now grinding quite a bit courser and as a result there aren't really any clumps to speak of. I've been playing this am by just grinding with the weight, sweep, pulse, sweep, a few flicks on the thwacker straight into the PF, tamp, brew. You do miss the extra air you get when you constantly thwack during the grind but I'm not sure that it makes too much of a difference. More tests to be run for sure.

Spence


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Exactly my findings - single dose = grind finer = more clumps = more thwacking needed.

If used as Mazzer intended , ie commercial setting, it does work better for grind quality (if you dont care about wasting coffee and 0.1g dosing accuracy)


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

sadly the 4000 didnt quite fit in my 2006 Royal properly, it seems the dimentions vary depending on the grinders age, perhaps +/- 1mm.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> sadly the 4000 didnt quite fit in my 2006 Royal properly, it seems the dimentions vary depending on the grinders age, perhaps +/- 1mm.


Yeah, checked with Jeebsy and his sounds like it's the same as mine. Providing the innards are the same and it's just the top section that's slightly more narrow then it is trivial to fix even for a one off!

Also did some investigations into the maximum weight that a full royal hopper might exert on the beans at the burrs. In reality it would probably be somewhere between 130g-150g due to the way that the hopper is shaped (probably based on floored physics).


----------

