# Espresso just not strong enough



## thedarkrose

Hi all

We've just bought our first Espresso Machine as an upgrade to our Senseo pod machine (easy to use but the pods are getting pricey). It's a Delonghi EC220. We also own a french press which makes great coffee. Now this might just be down to us being beginners but so far the espresso shots have been pretty watery. Sometimes the coffee is a solid lump when we remove the filter and other times it's swimming in water. I like my coffee strong and I'm at a loss as to what I'm doing wrong. We've tried various types of coffee (we don't grind it ourselves), some coarse, some fine. Most of the coffee we've tried is the same as what I used in the Senseo in a coffeeduck filter and it came out pretty great. I've tried leaving the machine on for a while so it's hot enough & tamping it as much as I can (the attached tamper is not great but can't seem to find one that will fit anywhere). Any suggestions? I just want a good espresso! And just a tiny last question on milk frothing...does it have to be immersed in the milk & is it normal for it to make a horrible screeching sound that almost makes your ears pop or am I just doing something wrong?

Educate me please


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## fatboyslim

Ouch!

Sorry but there is no easy way to say this. With your current setup you won't be able to produce good espresso.

Firstly you must must must get a grinder capable of doing decent espresso grind (cheapest option is an Iberital MC2) and grind just before you use it.

Secondly the delonghi probably has a pressured basket (espresso exits the basket through one small hole at the bottom) which in my opinion just can't produce good coffee.

Its also probably a thermoblock machine which have poor thermostability (meaning bad espresso) and poor steam power (for frothing milk).

Thirdly you need to get your coffee beans freshly roasted, best place is probably an online roaster store such as Has Bean, Square Mile, Extract or Union hand roasters.

You just have to put down that initial investment in machinery to start seeing results, but you will also have to increase your knowledge of espresso extraction and learn about things like extraction yield, dosing weight and shot times.

My advice would be to ditch your delonghi, get an MC2 grinder and a Gaggia Classic (both can be found cheaply second hand but just to be sure they have been looked after). These will be able to produce good espresso but will require a certain amount of skill on your part.

Hope this helps somewhat? If you aren't in a position to upgrade then your best bet is to stick to french press but buy a grinder and use freshly roasted beans. You will see instant improvement in brews.

Welcome to the Coffee forums


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## MikeHag

I think we need a new sticky.


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## fatboyslim

MikeHag said:


> I think we need a new sticky.


Yes I do feel that words to this effect have been repeated many many many many many many times before but at least we take it in turns to type it.

I think you would be the right person to write an intro sticky explaining...'Why can't I get good espresso from my Delonghi/Dualit/Morphy Richards/Pressurised PF machine'


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## jimrobo

MikeHag said:


> I think we need a new sticky.


Agreed!! I almost wrote one earlier in the week!!


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## MWJB

Fatboyslim wrote: "I think you would be the right person to write an intro sticky explaining...'Why can't I get good espresso from my Delonghi/Dualit/Morphy Richards/Pressurised PF machine' "

Hmmm...is then, help only afforded to posters with approved machines & beans? It strikes me that the OP wasn't complaining that the "espresso wasn't great", more that it appeared to be noticably worse that FP & Senseo pod machine? In fact, there was a specific point about strength...bad coffee, mediochre coffee, great coffee can all be made stronger or weaker.

@ thedarkrose - There is much truth indeed in FatboySlim's initial response...there is a whole world of espresso coffee beyond what your machine & preground can currently provide...however, I guess that if you were looking to make a £300-400 odd commitment (plus accessories), that you probably would have skipped the De Longhi 220...or gone for a more expensive bean to cup machine at the least, in the first place.

Depending on your useage, a hand grinder like the Porlex tall can handle espresso grinds, so you can start grinding your own beans, rather than buying preground. Whatever beans/grind you use you want fine/very fine (in comparison to what is available to store preground). If the coffee is too coarse, the water gushes through it too quickly, failing to extract the full range of flavour components...eventually, as you get more into espresso, it will become clear that a good grinder is essential...so if you can spring for the MC2, do so.

You don't say how much coffee you are trying to get out of a shot (coffee "strength" is the ratio of grinds vs water pushed through them)? Again, on your espresso journey, you will also learn the value of weighing the dry grinds and the drink produced (I even weight grinds and water added when I use any kind of brewer, including a French Press). Scales accurate to 0.1g would be good http://www.coffeehit.co.uk have some great 2Kg 0.1g American Weigh digital scales, which will handle most of your needs & will never outlive their usefulness. Typically, espresso drinks weigh anything from 1.5 to 4 times the weight of the grinds used (depending on taste). If you are trying to get a cup full (120ml+) from a single portafilter full...the coffee will be weak, probaby pretty bitter with it?

Frothing, try putting the frothing arm deeper into the milk. If you push it too deep you will probably hear a low rumble, you will be heating the milk more than frothing it, so maybe try and keep to a depth between the two. Carefull not to overheat the milk.

To get great espresso will need a greater investment in both time & money, just as FatBoySlim says, but there may well be room for improvement with your current set up, so no harm in experimenting in the meantime...


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## chimpsinties

MikeHag said:


> I think we need a new sticky.


I know I've already done at least one this week.


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## chimpsinties

MWJB said:


> a hand grinder like the Porlex tall can handle espresso grinds, so you can start grinding your own beans, rather than buying preground.


I was shocked when I saw Kat & Gail's comparison between a hand grinder and normal grinder. The work that goes into it amazed me. So much turning. Anyway, they said it tasted great so as long as you don't mind the work I guess


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## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> Fatboyslim wrote: "I think you would be the right person to write an intro sticky explaining...'Why can't I get good espresso from my Delonghi/Dualit/Morphy Richards/Pressurised PF machine' "
> 
> Hmmm...is then, help only afforded to posters with approved machines & beans? It strikes me that the OP wasn't complaining that the "espresso wasn't great", more that it appeared to be noticably worse that FP & Senseo pod machine? In fact, there was a specific point about strength...bad coffee, mediochre coffee, great coffee can all be made stronger or weaker.
> 
> @ thedarkrose - There is much truth indeed in FatboySlim's initial response...there is a whole world of espresso coffee beyond what your machine & preground can currently provide...however, I guess that if you were looking to make a £300-400 odd commitment (plus accessories), that you probably would have skipped the De Longhi 220...or gone for a more expensive bean to cup machine at the least, in the first place.
> 
> Depending on your useage, a hand grinder like the Porlex tall can handle espresso grinds, so you can start grinding your own beans, rather than buying preground. Whatever beans/grind you use you want fine/very fine (in comparison to what is available to store preground). If the coffee is too coarse, the water gushes through it too quickly, failing to extract the full range of flavour components...eventually, as you get more into espresso, it will become clear that a good grinder is essential...so if you can spring for the MC2, do so.
> 
> You don't say how much coffee you are trying to get out of a shot (coffee "strength" is the ratio of grinds vs water pushed through them)? Again, on your espresso journey, you will also learn the value of weighing the dry grinds and the drink produced (I even weight grinds and water added when I use any kind of brewer, including a French Press). Scales accurate to 0.1g would be good http://www.coffeehit.co.uk have some great 2Kg 0.1g American Weigh digital scales, which will handle most of your needs & will never outlive their usefulness. Typically, espresso drinks weigh anything from 1.5 to 4 times the weight of the grinds used (depending on taste). If you are trying to get a cup full (120ml+) from a single portafilter full...the coffee will be weak, probaby pretty bitter with it?
> 
> Frothing, try putting the frothing arm deeper into the milk. If you push it too deep you will probably hear a low rumble, you will be heating the milk more than frothing it, so maybe try and keep to a depth between the two. Carefull not to overheat the milk.
> 
> To get great espresso will need a greater investment in both time & money, just as FatBoySlim says, but there may well be room for improvement with your current set up, so no harm in experimenting in the meantime...


Not sure where you got 'help only afforded to posters with approved machines & beans' from, certainly not my intent. Surely you've seen the numerous posts from newbies asking why they can't get good results from lower end equipment. Having been through the trauma of owning a sub-entry level espresso machine complete with pressurised baskets myself, altering the strength of coffee really is the least of your problems. I skipped a few steps in order to get darkrose on the righteous path. He does say near the end of his OP



> I just want a good espresso!


 so it felt it only right to outline the 'first steps on the path to espresso nirvana'.

Hand grinder is definitely a cheap option and maybe there is a non-pressurised basket compatible with the delonghi which would at least make some improvement but it just doesn't seem worth the effort as it could be a case of insta-upgraditis.


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## MWJB

Hi Chimpsinties, beans make big difference, softer beans grind like butter (MM, OBJ for instance, you can barely feel any resistance - dense little beans like Yirgacheffe are a different matter!), when I was using the Porlex with a Clever Dripper I could just about grind 30g in the time it took for a full kettle to boil from cold, it was a bit of a race granted, but sub 20g doses aren't too bad. Given the time it takes for an espresso machine to get up to temp from cold, most folks will have time to weigh out & grind 14-16g with ease.

I still occasionally use the Porlex for espresso at home (though mostly for brewed)...once you get in the habit, it's not so much of a chore (in fact it's quite therapeutic, I use a hand grinder mostly at work for brewed and it makes for a nice bit of "me time"). Very little grind retention & wastage too. However, when dialling in espresso, pulling the odd sink shot & having to start over is quite disheartening! An electric grinder is a big advantage at times like that.


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## MWJB

Hi FatBoySlim,

Indeed, I know for sure that your intention was to be nothing but helpful and the advice given is "sterling". Just sometimes it strikes me that folk, who have yet to get as deeply into being a home barista, sometimes have a fairly simple initial question. And, right as you are, there may also be advice that is pertinent to assisting them in getting better results today/tomorrow...whilst they consider a greater commitment for the future. Guaranteed, if they spend enough time hanging around here, that future will be rushing at them...

To be fair you did list a whole string of machines that are of questionable quality when it comes to making espresso. I feel that if someone has taken steps to recognise that they could be in a better place (as Darkrose has), that in itself is a good thing & shows interest, but we don't know the level of commitment or other pressures on their finances, that may limit the speed at which they undertake the journey. Plus it may give better peace of mind before rushing into another purchase if tangible results can be improved with current gear...so there's less of a "out of the frying pan into the fire" worry?

Regards, Mark.


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## jimbow

I think the point here is one of setting correct expectations. Many people getting into speciality coffee think of espresso machines as a kitchen appliance and hence it is unfortunate that the majority of kitchen appliance manufacturers (I am looking at you Dualit, KitchenAid, Delonghi, Morphy Richards et al.) do not produce particularly good espresso machines. The other problem is that the manufacturers (Gaggia are guilty of this to an extent also) do not do enough to set people's expectations regarding the skill involved in producing good espresso and the fact that other equipment e.g. a grinder is required in addition to the espresso machine. This is why people are often confused and disappointed by their poor initial results with these machines.


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## MWJB

Sure, this is true. But I'm also tending to look at this post from the perspective that DarkRose has a specific "malfunction", a go/no go situation in the first instance, requiring a fix - rather than simply a "tweak to taste" situation. If we don't have an idea why the coffee isn't strong enough & cannot pass on advice as to how to make it stronger (a concept common to all coffee making methods) why will things change with an upgrade. Hence, if DarkRose splashes out on a Classic, MC2, non pressurised basket, tamper, scales, etc. (I have no issue with the fact that DarkRose should buy these things, or at least aspire to) why assume that the same issues that face them at the moment, won't also apply then? E.g. if they repost next week with the same query, they will still get the same "upgrade" advice from somebody...which may well be good advice, but at some point you still have to stop and assess what you are doing & what you can do to improve your results. People make coffee - espresso machines, Chemexes, French presses & grinders are tools...get the best tools that you can, but ultimately it's your input that has the deciding factor (within reasonable expectation)...even bean to cup machines need user input.


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## fatboyslim

From my experience kitchen-appliance-manufactured coffee machines all tend to use pressurised baskets. Sure putting more coffee in this basket will make it stronger but then you might choke the machine (which was stupidly easy on my Dualit).

These baskets tend to be on the small side also. I remember my Dualit recommended '2 scoops' for the larger basket which I think I weighed in at 10g.

Up dosing from that simply didn't fit in that basket without tamping too hard which then choked the machine. You just don't have the same variables and freedom on these machines as you do on 'proper' machines.

I don't feel you can convey the same lessons and techniques such as brew ratio and dose weight for these machines that aren't designed to be used so precisely. Not sure its anyone's intention to only offer up the advice to upgrade, but with at least what we all know as the baseline equipment (Classic and MC2) we can then begin providing help based on how things are done by world barista champions and home enthusiasts alike.

Just think you can't perhaps get the 'stronger' espresso that darkrose is looking for on a machine with such huge limitations that basically trying to adjust things like dose weight/tamp pressure will result in a malfunction!


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## thedarkrose

Thank you everyone that has responded. I appear to have inspired a discussion









*Fatboyslim*I would love to own a better machine & grind my own beans but sadly I don't think I'd ever be able to afford any of the tools needed and from what I've heard the beans are more expensive. Thank you for your honest help & advice. I know I will have to make do with what I've got. I've spent the last 2 days watching every video I can find on making espressos etc and it has helped.

*MWJB * I'm embarrassed to say that we were actually trying to get a cup of coffee out of it which obviously isn't going to work seeing as how it's an espresso machine and all







so how would I achieve that? Would it be a case of making an espresso and then topping up with hot water? I find Delonghi's instructions to be a bit silly. The pictures aren't much help. It says about hot water but I can't even figure that out







I still need a lot of practice with the frother so for now I'm sticking to my trusty Bodum hand one. It does the job without screeching at me!

Ok, we tried just an espresso shot and it was bitter. I finally worked out how to use ESE pods which meant I could use some espresso ones I bought for really cheap and wow, the taste was so different. It was...well...yummy! So either we have to find a better coffee to use or will just have to stick to pods. So now I'm on the hunt for some good ESE pods. Any suggestions are welcome although I know most (or maybe all) of you use fresh beans only.

Once again, thank you to anyone that replied.


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## MikeHag

Just to elaborate on my comment about a new sticky, I was only meaning that (as fatty and chimps picked up on) such a sticky would help prevent the same things being repeatedly written concerning the basic issues that new owners of low end domestic machines experience. I don't think there was any suggestion that such owners wouldn't get the same attention as others with their specific questions, only that the whole "I'm new... my espresso is bad... I have a [insert branded machine here]... I use preground supermarket beans... help please" topic is precisely the sort of FAQ that stickies are so good for.

(Afraid I'm a little short of time to write it tho!)


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## chimpsinties

thedarkrose said:


> so how would I achieve that? Would it be a case of making an espresso and then topping up with hot water?


You'll find if you look closely that's exactly what they do in coffee shops. If someone wants an cup of coffee (Americano) then they simply make a double espresso and top it up with water.

There's a point where if you draw too much water through the coffee you get all kinds of yukky flavours extracted. If you make the double espresso and add water you'll get a lovely flavourful cup of coffee. In fact, making espresso into an Americano can be quite forgiving on bad coffee.

Have you thought about at least trying some fresh roasted beans. This will make a world of difference to the flavour of any coffee you make by whatever method you make it. Some places like Coffeebeanshop.co.uk can sell you 4 bags for about £15 + £4P&P so you're not paying much more than the crappy preground super market muck. They'll also grind it for you if you like.

A cheap option to enjoy great coffee is also something like an Aeropress. It makes a fantastic brew. So clean compared to a french press and relatively cheap too. See youtube for vids.


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## MWJB

@ TheDarkRose - Well, just like any other format, ESE pods vary too...it will be very unlikely that any will give you an espresso that will match what you can get from tasty, fresh ground beans [which you can get from Ocado/Waitrose for under £4 per 227/250g, I have even been enjoying some Tesco Java Sumatran as brewed that a work colleague brought in...but really, for a little more you can also get excellent, roast dated (good to know in case beans have been sitting on supermarket shelves for a few months), beans from roasters frequently mentioned in these pages] but try http://www.thecoffeepod.co.uk and their Daterra sweet bourbon (just one of many varieties they sell) for an alternative in pods. Really, though I'd strongly suggest a Porlex tall hand grinder & grinding your own beans...you can always switch between that & pods/preground on occasions where the labour is too much of a chore - my guess is though, that the difference in flavour may see you keep the pods just for emergencies ;-)

I have had reasonable results with Lavazza Oro preground, it will lose flavour noticably within a couple of days of opening (but a lot of preground is pretty awful from the moment you open the packet), so unlesss you go through it at some pace, it may not be particularly cost effective.

As Chimpsinties says, an important aspect is just drawing as much espresso as is necessary, before bitter flavours (especially) dominate. Hence the suggestion to get some scales, weigh each shot and try an determine at what weight (for a given dose of dry coffee) you get the best flavour (this will vary from bean to bean)...then add hot water to make the drink longer & less strong/intense. Don't get too precious about adding milk etc either, it can be a good way to reign in acidity & pungency, smoothing the favour. I normally drink freshly ground espresso just as it comes (because by playing with grind fineness & shot weight you can often find a sweet spot where you capitalise on the sugars in the coffee itself), but I sometimes drink pod shots with equal parts hot water & milk...they're not "great" given the wider picture, but you can often make them into a nice enough coffee drink in their own right.


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## Jakester

Hi Dark rose

I am pretty new here but have gone down most of the roads you are just starting on!!!! I have gone and read the manual for your machine, its not a lot of help!!!

I found with a few machines I have had in the past that pre ground Lavazza in the Red and silver pack works pretty well. Gives a good enough result without to much grief.

Your machine should get what is supposed a Crema with whatever you put in it. But I notice it says in the manual to pull a shot for 45secs max. That will be horrid even if you buy grinders and amazing coffee. I think also with that filter if its to fine you will get nothing coming out. But you still can get coffee out of it thats better than most of the high street places just will take a bit of messing.

I would work out how much coffee 2 of your scoops hold you want idealy 14 - 16 grams my Gaggia takes 16 g, You can be miles out with those scoops so weighing it as someone else said really is worth while.

So to make a Cappichino I would use 2 shots 16grams if it fits, run for around 25 29 secs then froth milk pour on and enjoy.

Good luck Vince


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## thedarkrose

Thank you for all your help & advice. I think I'm winning slowly. I always favoured Cappuccinos but am now finding I much prefer an Espresso. I just wish I had an Espresso to compare mine to! I've got lots of pods to try & some Espresso I found in Tesco that says it is specifically for Espresso machine (all our others say suitable for any coffee machine) so I will try that when the other stuff is gone.

*chimpsinties* You are of course right! I've worked out that it wouldn't really be that much more expensive to buy freshly ground beans. So next month we will be buying coffee from there (not this month as I'm now broke!).

We've been having "Americanos" with breakfast every morning and I've been playing around with it a bit to tryout which way tastes better. In the beginning I found I was adding too much water. I'm getting there! Also been playing around with when to stop the water. I weighed how much coffee one scoop was & it was just under 6g so have been adding a bit more each time to get the 7g.

The Aeropress looks great but I feel like I'd be taking the easy way out with that. I've learn so much about all types of coffee since we got this machine that I find it's all I'm talking about!









*MWJB*

Our pods arrived today & I was happy to find the Daterra sweet bourbon in the mixed bag we bought. I've got a nice variety to try but I'm really itching to get my hands on some fresh stuff now!

We probably use a packet (227g) in a week. Sometimes less, sometimes more.

*Jakester*

The manual is pretty useless







It was only through trial & error (and my father's assistance) that I worked out why the frother was screeching so bad I thought my ears were going to bleed! I didn't realise that it should only slightly be immersed in the milk & not totally!







So my frothy milk is coming out better but it's just timing I need to work on. I figured out the hot water at last! We've got Espresso cups that I've been using now instead of the normal coffee cups but I'm convinced they are too big. Some places say a shot should be between 30-40ml but the cups take about 50ml.

So, if I do a double shot (therefore using the bigger filter) would I just use one Espresso cup (so same amount of water as one shot) or two (double the amount of water)?


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## jimbow

The general guidelines are that a single shot of espresso should be 1 Fl. Oz. (approx 28ml) and a double should be 2 Fl. Oz. (approx 56ml). However, in practice you may find that the volume varies depending upon how much crema is produced (the crema is included in the volume). To work around the variable nature of crema we often use weight rather than volume to measure the quantity of espresso. The espresso (not including the cup) should weigh roughly double the weight of the ground coffee used.

Espresso cups are usually around 2-3 Fl. Oz. so many people use them to serve both singles and doubles.


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## thedarkrose

I've just got two quick questions. Is it normal for the steam wand to spout out hot water when it's off and I'm making an espresso? I notice it doing this fairly often. Other thing is it's really tight when we put the thing (don't know what it's called) with portafilter in into the machine. You are supposed to turn it to the arrow but we can only get it halfway. Could that just be because it is new?

Sorry for all the questions & thank you for all the help.



jimbow said:


> The general guidelines are that a single shot of espresso should be 1 Fl. Oz. (approx 28ml) and a double should be 2 Fl. Oz. (approx 56ml). However, in practice you may find that the volume varies depending upon how much crema is produced (the crema is included in the volume). To work around the variable nature of crema we often use weight rather than volume to measure the quantity of espresso. The espresso (not including the cup) should weigh roughly double the weight of the ground coffee used.
> 
> Espresso cups are usually around 2-3 Fl. Oz. so many people use them to serve both singles and doubles.


Thank you. I tried that out when I got home & was surprised by the difference in taste. I'm enjoying playing with this machine far too much.


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## jimbow

Great to hear you are enjoying playing









The weight of the final espresso relative to the weight of the ground coffee used is called the brew ratio. It can be expressed either in the form 1:x (e.g. if the espresso weights double the ground coffee then this would be 1:2) or with the weight of the ground coffee as a percentage of the weight of the liquid espresso (e.g. 50%). Espresso can be anywhere between 40-60% brew ratio although I believe most people tend to prefer 55-60%. It might be worth playing around with different brew ratios yourself and seeing what you prefer.

If hot water is leaking from the steam wand during brewing it could be because the steam valve is not closed properly. Is there a steam knob somewhere on the machine? This needs to be closed for brewing and open for steaming. Be careful not to close it too tightly however as the brass washers on the valve are quite delicate and soft and so if closed too tightly it can lead to leaks such as those you are experiencing.

The handle you lock into the machine is called the portafilter and it carries the filter basket which holds the coffee. It is common for the portafilter to not turn 90 degrees when the group gasket is relatively new. It usually gives more as it gets more use. However, not being able to turn it could also be caused by too much ground coffee in the filter basket. Does the problem still occur when you put the portafilter into the machine without any coffee in the filter basket?


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