# Mara x steam issue



## MonkeyHarris78

Hi all, I got a Mara x for Christmas and I'm really happy with it. I generally just drink espresso and it performs really well for this.

I sometimes however make lattes for my wife. My Mara x is an upgrade from my 10 year old Silvia but I'm really underwhelmed by the steam function. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong or it has a fault.

I expected the steam to be stronger or at least on par with the Silvia but it isn't.

In brew priority mode (1) I pull a couple of shots and the steam pressure kicks up to 1.5 bars. I then steam the milk which starts ok but rapidly drops to below 0.5 bar. After adding air there seems to be no pressure to whip the air in and it takes an age to actually just heat the milk.

With my Silvia I used to pretty much open the valve up full. Should I just be opening it a fraction?

I'm probably steaming around 300ml.


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## MediumRoastSteam

There was someone stating exactly the same on another post. Worth searching for it.

edit: was on phone away from main PC otherwise would have pasted the link.


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## BlackCatCoffee

What happens after the steam pressure has built back up from its 0.5 low?


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## MonkeyHarris78

Once I finish steaming it gradually rises back to 1.5 bar


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## MonkeyHarris78

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There was someone stating exactly the same on another post. Worth searching for it.


 Will have a search thanks


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## BlackCatCoffee

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> Once I finish steaming it gradually rises back to 1.5 bar


 Does the steam behave in the same way ie runs out of steam quickly or is it better second time around?


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## MonkeyHarris78

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Does the steam behave in the same way ie runs out of steam quickly or is it better second time around?


 I need to try that but it's done this every time I've used it. Not once has it been able to maintain pressure. It literally runs out of steam.

I've made my wife a Latte everyday since Xmas. I switch it on, wait half an hour (I don't let it go into eco mode). I pull a couple of shots. Steam pressure rises to 1.5 bar within a minute or so. I do a quick purge of the wand, start steaming and within 15-20 seconds the steam pressure is at about 0.5 bar and it takes over a minute to just heat the milk.


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## itguy

It was me who started the other thread on this topic - worth digging it out and having a read.

When you do your shots, try steaming the milk after the first shot - so assuming you want to have an espresso and a latte;

Try this workflow;

Don't purge anything to start with

Pull the first shot

Clean portafilter

Steam should be up around 1.2 to 1.5 bar by now

Steam milk (should hold steady pressure of around 1 to 1.2 bar or so)

Clean up steam wand etc etc

Pull second shot - for the espresso

Clean portafilter

Walk away and drink 

I am wondering if the double pulling of shots without steaming after the first one is somehow confusing the clever PID programming. If you follow what I've put above, that should work perfectly.

What temperature are you running the machine at? 0, I or II ?


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## MonkeyHarris78

itguy said:


> It was me who started the other thread on this topic - worth digging it out and having a read.
> 
> When you do your shots, try steaming the milk after the first shot - so assuming you want to have an espresso and a latte;
> 
> Try this workflow;
> 
> Don't purge anything to start with
> 
> Pull the first shot
> 
> Clean portafilter
> 
> Steam should be up around 1.2 to 1.5 bar by now
> 
> Steam milk (should hold steady pressure of around 1 to 1.2 bar or so)
> 
> Clean up steam wand etc etc
> 
> Pull second shot - for the espresso
> 
> Clean portafilter
> 
> Walk away and drink
> 
> I am wondering if the double pulling of shots without steaming after the first one is somehow confusing the clever PID programming. If you follow what I've put above, that should work perfectly.
> 
> What temperature are you running the machine at? 0, I or II ?


 I'm at temp setting 1.

I watched DaveC's video on YouTube and he pulls 2 shots back to back then foams milk without a pressure drop in brew priority mode.

I'll give that a go but a bit annoying if you want to make 2 large lattes. Means you have to foam milk twice. Unless you keep swirling it


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## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> I'm at temp setting 1.
> 
> I watched DaveC's video on YouTube and he pulls 2 shots back to back then foams milk without a pressure drop in brew priority mode.
> 
> I'll give that a go but a bit annoying if you want to make 2 large lattes. Means you have to foam milk twice. Unless you keep swirling it


 Link:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55935-mara-x-second-shot-steam-performance-in-x-mode/page/3/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=801535&embedComment=801535&embedDo=findComment#comment-801535


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## itguy

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> I'm at temp setting 1.
> 
> I watched DaveC's video on YouTube and he pulls 2 shots back to back then foams milk without a pressure drop in brew priority mode.
> 
> I'll give that a go but a bit annoying if you want to make 2 large lattes. Means you have to foam milk twice. Unless you keep swirling it


 Ahh ok.

I have always steamed my milk twice for two drinks, as only have a 500ml pitcher.

I do sometimes do a split shot for smaller (Italian style) cappuccinos, then steam one lot of milk - but that is basically pull one double shot and steam one lot of milk.

I wonder how you would get on if you steamed all of the milk after the first shot... It might just be that the PID timer countdown for the steam boost is almost done by the time you have pulled your second shot?


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## MonkeyHarris78

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Link:
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55935-mara-x-second-shot-steam-performance-in-x-mode/page/3/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=801535&embedComment=801535&embedDo=findComment#comment-801535


 Thanks. I'll have a read.


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## MonkeyHarris78

itguy said:


> Ahh ok.
> 
> I have always steamed my milk twice for two drinks, as only have a 500ml pitcher.
> 
> I do sometimes do a split shot for smaller (Italian style) cappuccinos, then steam one lot of milk - but that is basically pull one double shot and steam one lot of milk.
> 
> I wonder how you would get on if you steamed all of the milk after the first shot... It might just be that the PID timer countdown for the steam boost is almost done by the time you have pulled your second shot?


 I'm going to try just a single latte tomorrow to see if I get the issue. If I don't then need to play around with my work flow to see if I can find a solution. I do flush the e61 after the second shot to clear the screen but the steam pressure remains at 1.5 bar after doing that.


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## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> I do flush the e61 after the second shot to clear the screen but the steam pressure remains at 1.5 bar after doing that.


 Maybe don't bother doing that.


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## MonkeyHarris78

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Maybe don't bother doing that.


 Agreed. Going to give it go. Fingers crossed it's that simple.


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## Doram

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> I sometimes however make lattes for my wife. My Mara x is an upgrade from my 10 year old Silvia but I'm really underwhelmed by the steam function. Not sure if I'm doing something wrong or it has a fault.
> 
> I expected the steam to be stronger or at least on par with the Silvia but it isn't.


 I Also moved from Silvia to Mara X. I Also initially thought steam power was better on the Rancilio, but now I don't think it is at all - it's just different (and in my opinion - better). You just need to learn how to use the machine, that's all. And you don't have to steam separately for two lattes - that's nonsense. I often make two shots, then steam for them together in a 600 ml pitcher with no issue at all.

Unless your machine is faulty, and it is probably more likely that it isn't, all you need to do is give the machine a minute to reach steam pressure. If you make two shots, I find the easiest is to just pull them both, then clean the PF and basket. At this stage the pressure would be ~1.5 and you can steam away.

On the Silvia, the steam pressure at its peak would blow the milk away, literally. The sheer power would blow milk droplets everywhere (and the side of the machine was thus constantly dirty with milk spray). For me, this power, combined with the one-hole tip on Silvia, wouldn't get the consistent good results that come with the gentle control I get from what seems like more tamed power and two-hole tip on the Mara. Once I learned where to position the tip, when to stop stretching and how to get the role - I am getting much better and more consistent results from the Lelit. Also, the best results come when I think I haven't stretched the milk enough (well, now I don't think that anymore, but in the beginning when I thought I stretched enough - it was usually too much).

Obviously, if you lose as the power a few seconds after you start steaming - it's no good. But from reading a lot, most people who had this issue just didn't let the machine get up to pressure. If your machine gets to 1.5 bar and keeps it there while steaming - don't worry about it looking weaker than the steam power from Silvia. It is plenty powerful enough and will give you much better control in my opinion.


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## MonkeyHarris78

Doram said:


> I Also moved from Silvia to Mara X. I Also initially thought steam power was better on the Rancilio, but now I don't think it is at all - it's just different (and in my opinion - better). You just need to learn how to use the machine, that's all. And you don't have to steam separately for two lattes - that's nonsense. I often make two shots, then steam for them together in a 600 ml pitcher with no issue at all.
> 
> Unless your machine is faulty, and it is probably more likely that it isn't, all you need to do is give the machine a minute to reach steam pressure. If you make two shots, I find the easiest is to just pull them both, then clean the PF and basket. At this stage the pressure would be ~1.5 and you can steam away.
> 
> On the Silvia, the steam pressure at its peak would blow the milk away, literally. The sheer power would blow milk droplets everywhere (and the side of the machine was thus constantly dirty with milk spray). For me, this power, combined with the one-hole tip on Silvia, wouldn't get the consistent good results that come with the gentle control I get from what seems like more tamed power and two-hole tip on the Mara. Once I learned where to position the tip, when to stop stretching and how to get the role - I am getting much better and more consistent results from the Lelit. Also, the best results come when I think I haven't stretched the milk enough (well, now I don't think that anymore, but in the beginning when I thought I stretched enough - it was usually too much).
> 
> Obviously, if you lose as the power a few seconds after you start steaming - it's no good. But from reading a lot, most people who had this issue just didn't let the machine get up to pressure. If your machine gets to 1.5 bar and keeps it there while steaming - don't worry about it looking weaker than the steam power from Silvia. It is plenty powerful enough and will give you much better control in my opinion.


 Thanks for sharing your experience. I always pull 2 shots. I then knock out the second puck and clean the PF. Steam is always hovering on 1.5 bars before I start steaming but drops off within seconds. I'm yet to experience it not doing this and I've tried 10+ times.

Initial pressure is good and I agree with you that the Silvia was aggressive. I could definitely work with it if it would stay above 1 bar.

As mentioned above I have been flushing the E61 to rinse grinds off after pulling my second shot. Perhaps this is what's confusing it. I'm going to try again tomorrow firstly just a single shot and milk and if successful I'll try 2 and milk without the flush.

Really hope it's not a fault.


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## MonkeyHarris78

I pulled a single shot this morning and then run some steam into a jug of water. For the first time it maintained steam pressure. I didn't flush the e61 as I normally do before steaming milk.

Going to try this again a bit later but pull 2 shots first. If this works it would suggest flushing additional water through the group head after pulling 2 shots in between steaming causes the issue.


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## profesor_historia

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> I pulled a single shot this morning and then run some steam into a jug of water. For the first time it maintained steam pressure. I didn't flush the e61 as I normally do before steaming milk.
> Going to try this again a bit later but pull 2 shots first. If this works it would suggest flushing additional water through the group head after pulling 2 shots in between steaming causes the issue.


Just of curiosity, why would you flush the E61 after the 2 shots and before steaming? You could steam and then in the end after you had the coffees etc you can flush the group to clean it, the steam wand etc.


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## MonkeyHarris78

profesor_historia said:


> MonkeyHarris78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> I pulled a single shot this morning and then run some steam into a jug of water. For the first time it maintained steam pressure. I didn't flush the e61 as I normally do before steaming milk.
> Going to try this again a bit later but pull 2 shots first. If this works it would suggest flushing additional water through the group head after pulling 2 shots in between steaming causes the issue.
> 
> 
> 
> Just of curiosity, why would you flush the E61 after the 2 shots and before steaming? You could steam and then in the end after you had the coffees etc you can flush the group to clean it, the steam wand etc.
Click to expand...

 A combination of OCD and a 10 year habit 😁

I'm happy to not do it if it fixes the issue though.


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## Doram

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> I pulled a single shot this morning and then run some steam into a jug of water. For the first time it maintained steam pressure. I didn't flush the e61 as I normally do before steaming milk.
> 
> Going to try this again a bit later but pull 2 shots first. If this works it would suggest flushing additional water through the group head after pulling 2 shots in between steaming causes the issue.


 I do a very quick flush after pulling shots and before steaming, with a PF wiggle, just enough to clear some of the coffee from the shower screen (so maybe a second?). This doesn't cause any problem for steaming power.

If you do a long flush - common sense is you are either lowering the pressure in the boiler (if the pump doesn't refill the boiler immediately), or you are lowering the temperature by introducing cold water from the tank (and as a consequence, lowering the pressure). Either option goes against the build up of pressure you need for steaming. So if you do it and you don't have enough pressure, it makes a lot of sense to stop doing it.


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## MonkeyHarris78

Doram said:


> I do a very quick flush after pulling shots and before steaming, with a PF wiggle, just enough to clear some of the coffee from the shower screen (so maybe a second?). This doesn't cause any problem for steaming power.
> 
> If you do a long flush - common sense is you are either lowering the pressure in the boiler (if the pump doesn't refill the boiler immediately), or you are lowering the temperature by introducing cold water from the tank (and as a consequence, lowering the pressure). Either option goes against the build up of pressure you need for steaming. So if you do it and you don't have enough pressure, it makes a lot of sense to stop doing it.







Tried again this afternoon. This time I pulled 2 shots. Cleaned PF. Didn't flush. This is the result.

Basically still an issue. Boiler clearly kicks in half way through steaming. On this occasion my daughter who was filming got bored and stopped but pressure continued to drop to the point I had to stop and way for it to return above 1 bar 

Any suggestions?

Milk temp was only up to 35c when film stopped.


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## Doram

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> Tried again this afternoon. This time I pulled 2 shots. Cleaned PF. Didn't flush. This is the result.
> 
> Basically still an issue. Boiler clearly kicks in half way through steaming. On this occasion my daughter who was filming got bored and stopped but pressure continued to drop to the point I had to stop and way for it to return above 1 bar
> 
> Any suggestions?


 Looking at your video, it seems to me that the problem starts right after the pumps kicks in (at about one minute from the start of the video). This makes sense, as the pump introduces cold water to the boiler so obviously it reduces the pressure.

As far as I can remember, this never happened to me (pump kicking in while steaming). I remember that @DavecUK explained the circumstances when this can happen and how to avoid it. If I remember correctly, it is caused by the water level being close to where it needs to re-fill the boiler, and the little steam you draw brings it to below the level, so the pump kicks in. It should be quite rare, so if you get this every time then maybe something is wrong with the machine or the workflow?

One other thing I noticed is that it seems you steam for quite a long time. I never measured it, but my feeling is that I usually don't get to a minute, so maybe this is also a difference? Not sure about this last point though.


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## MonkeyHarris78

Doram said:


> Looking at your video, it seems to me that the problem starts right after the pumps kicks in (at about one minute from the start of the video). This makes sense, as the pump introduces cold water to the boiler so obviously it reduces the pressure.
> 
> As far as I can remember, this never happened to me (pump kicking in while steaming). I remember that @DavecUK explained the circumstances when this can happen and how to avoid it. If I remember correctly, it is caused by the water level being close to where it needs to re-fill the boiler, and the little steam you draw brings it to below the level, so the pump kicks in. It should be quite rare, so if you get this every time then maybe something is wrong with the machine or the workflow?
> 
> One other thing I noticed is that it seems you steam for quite a long time. I never measured it, but my feeling is that I usually don't get to a minute, so maybe this is also a difference? Not sure about this last point though.


 Yes normally my Silvia would have been done well before then but the milk was only up to 35c when it ran out of steam and video ended. I usually go up to 60c.


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## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> Yes normally my Silvia would have been done well before then but the milk was only up to 35c when it ran out of steam and video ended. I usually go up to 60c.


 You need to make the boiler refil BEFORE this happens. Draw 30-50ml from the hot water tap, straight after brewing or before hand. Also, your steaming is taking too long. Fully open that steam tap!

report back.


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## profesor_historia

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> Yes normally my Silvia would have been done well before then but the milk was only up to 35c when it ran out of steam and video ended. I usually go up to 60c.


I don't have the MaraX but the Silvia Pro however after seeing the video it seems that a very long time to steaming. It seems that the temperature is not enough, the Pro for example doesn't have the former Silvia steam power but it usually takes me about 20 seconds to reach 60°C with 35ml of milk. Something it doesn't seem right at all with your steam power, it shouldn't be so complicated to steam a pitch of milk I think.


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## MediumRoastSteam

profesor_historia said:


> MonkeyHarris78 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Yes normally my Silvia would have been done well before then but the milk was only up to 35c when it ran out of steam and video ended. I usually go up to 60c.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't have the MaraX but the Silvia Pro however after seeing the video it seems that a very long time to steaming. It seems that the temperature is not enough, the Pro for example doesn't have the former Silvia steam power but it usually takes me about 20 seconds to reach 60°C with 35ml of milk. Something it doesn't seem right at all with your steam power, it shouldn't be so complicated to steam a pitch of milk I think.
Click to expand...

 Yeah. I think it's because he's not fully opening the steam tap.


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## MonkeyHarris78

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You need to make the boiler refil BEFORE this happens. Draw 30-50ml from the hot water tap, straight after brewing or before hand. Also, your steaming is taking too long. Fully open that steam tap!
> 
> report back.


 Thanks will try that. I don't usually take that long just no pressure.


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## profesor_historia

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yeah. I think it's because he's not fully opening the steam tap.


I forgot to tell that I use the stock 3 holes steam tip, with 4 it's even quicker but more difficult to control.


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## itguy

Looking at your video your machine behaves like mine i'd say - in as much as it all looks pretty ok until the boiler adds some cold water into it, then the pressure starts dropping. I can also see that the heating element comes on at that point too, but it just isn't strong enough to recover the pressure back up to 1+bar with the steam wand open.

It does seem that your steaming is taking a very long time too. What quantity of milk do you have in that pitcher and what temperature are you aiming for?

I think following the advice on here re getting the boiler to refill just before doing a big pull of steam is the key - to avoid that cold fill in the middle of steaming.


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## djrustycans

> 4 hours ago, MonkeyHarris78 said:


 This is EXACTLY what happens to me. The only time it seems to perform as expected is when the machine is switched on first thing in the morning with the smart plug - even if its left for an hour or more before use. I have tried most things to avoid the pump kicking in whilst steaming. Still a couple of things to investigate from the other thread before deciding if my Mara X is screwed!

Did you get yours from Bella Barista?


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## MonkeyHarris78

itguy said:


> Looking at your video your machine behaves like mine i'd say - in as much as it all looks pretty ok until the boiler adds some cold water into it, then the pressure starts dropping. I can also see that the heating element comes on at that point too, but it just isn't strong enough to recover the pressure back up to 1+bar with the steam wand open.
> 
> It does seem that your steaming is taking a very long time too. What quantity of milk do you have in that pitcher and what temperature are you aiming for?
> 
> I think following the advice on here re getting the boiler to refill just before doing a big pull of steam is the key - to avoid that cold fill in the middle of steaming.


 It's 300ml. Perhaps this is too much? I'm coming from the Silvia which would heat that in 20 seconds. Because of the low pressure and therefore temp I only achieved 35c by the end of the video. Was aiming for 60c.


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## MonkeyHarris78

djrustycans said:


> This is EXACTLY what happens to me. The only time it seems to perform as expected is when the machine is switched on first thing in the morning with the smart plug - even if its left for an hour or more before use. I have tried most things to avoid the pump kicking in whilst steaming. Still a couple of things to investigate from the other thread before deciding if my Mara X is screwed!
> 
> Did you get yours from Bella Barista?


 Yes got mine from BB. Emailed them yesterday but obviously being NY not expecting an immediate response.

Mine hasn't maintained temp once apart from a test I did after a single shot this morning with some water but I'm now doubting I waited long enough.

Interestingly mine is also on a smart plug and I never froth milk in the morning only on second use of the day. It is switched off in between though.


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## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> It's 300ml. Perhaps this is too much? I'm coming from the Silvia which would heat that in 20 seconds. Because of the low pressure and therefore temp I only achieved 35c by the end of the video. Was aiming for 60c.


 Heat in 20 seconds is one thing. Producing good quality microfoam in 20 seconds on 300ml of cold milk - expanding to 420ml - is something I'm yet to see on a single or 2 hole - let alone any more holes - steam wand with a small boiler (300ml on the Silvia).

my machine, Elizabeth, has the same steam tip as the MaraX. The boiler, however, is only 600ml. I can steam 250ml of milk, expanding to approx. 350ml of warm good quality silky microfoam milk at 65C in approx. 40s.


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## MonkeyHarris78

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Heat in 20 seconds is one thing. Producing good quality microfoam in 20 seconds on 300ml of cold milk - expanding to 420ml - is something I'm yet to see on a single or 2 hole - let alone any more holes - steam wand with a small boiler (300ml on the Silvia).
> 
> my machine, Elizabeth, has the same steam tip as the MaraX. The boiler, however, is only 600ml. I can steam 250ml of milk, expanding to approx. 350ml of warm good quality silky microfoam milk at 65C in approx. 40s.


 Tbh I never timed it but it was comparatively quick. Usually I'm fighting to texture the milk before the heat rapidly approaches 65c.

The power of the steam initially is fine but noticeably weaker. I have no issue with this. In all honesty a little more time to texture would be good. It's the drop off that is the deal breaker. I've been successfully making a good velvety microfoam for 10+ years and I've used a few different machines. I know this is not my ability although I expected a learning curve. It simply does not work as it should. Unless I am somehow triggering a rare bug everytime I use it.


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## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> Tbh I never timed it but it was comparatively quick. Usually I'm fighting to texture the milk before the heat rapidly approaches 65c.
> 
> The power of the steam initially is fine but noticeably weaker. I have no issue with this. In all honesty a little more time to texture would be good. It's the drop off that is the deal breaker. I've been successfully making a good velvety microfoam for 10+ years and I've used a few different machines. I know this is not my ability although I expected a learning curve. It simply does not work as it should. Unless I am somehow triggering a rare bug everytime I use it.


 Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what you are doing is right or wrong or criticising your technique. But something is not right. Whether it's the machine or your workflow. Hopefully you with the help of some forum members here will help you to get to the bottom of the root cause of the problem. In my experience, after coming from a Gaggia Classic and what I thought was acceptable microfoam completely changed when I moved to a better machine. I also learnt over the years that every machine works in slightly different ways. For example, with the Gaggia Classic I remember surfing the milk and trying to spin the milk. With the La Pavoni, it was something similar, but easier to achieve. With the Elizabeth, it's just the mere opposite: keep the steam wand close to the wall of the jug and blast away. Let the milk roll and shortly after the result is excellent. Much simpler, much easier, and yet, a completely different technique. It's almost like re-learning it.

Anyway, keep us posted. Hopefully you figure out what's going on soon.


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## MonkeyHarris78

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying what you are doing is right or wrong or criticising your technique. But something is not right. Whether it's the machine or your workflow. Hopefully you with the help of some forum members here will help you to get to the bottom of the root cause of the problem. In my experience, after coming from a Gaggia Classic and what I thought was acceptable microfoam completely changed when I moved to a better machine. I also learnt over the years that every machine works in slightly different ways. For example, with the Gaggia Classic I remember surfing the milk and trying to spin the milk. With the La Pavoni, it was something similar, but easier to achieve. With the Elizabeth, it's just the mere opposite: keep the steam wand close to the wall of the jug and blast away. Let the milk roll and shortly after the result is excellent. Much simpler, much easier, and yet, a completely different technique. It's almost like re-learning it.
> 
> Anyway, keep us posted. Hopefully you figure out what's going on soon.


 Thanks. I'm going to try a few different things tomorrow and maybe BB will have an answer.

The stupid thing is I hardly drink anything other than espresso. The latte's are for my wife. I convinced her I needed to upgrade as I was fed up with waiting for steam on the Silvia for her lattes 😂


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## MonkeyHarris78

Tried again today. This time I pulled around 70ml of water from the hot water tap prior to steaming. This made boiler kick in again. As soon as steam pressure hit 1.5 bar I did a quick blast on the steam wand and tried again.
Result was marginally improved but ultimately the same. I also set temp to number 2 to see if that would have any effect but it didn't.


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## djrustycans

All too familiar... I tried the same thing today re the water tap first and first latte was ok but the second turned out like on your video.

Was this after first switch-on or after the machine was left on for some time?


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## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> All too familiar... I tried the same thing today re the water tap first and first latte was ok but the second turned out like on your video.
> 
> Was this after first switch-on or after the machine was left on for some time?


 This was the 2nd time it had been on today. I need espresso first thing


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## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> This was the 2nd time it had been on today. I need espresso first thing


 Understood! My issue is nearly always after 2nd use - a couple of hours later or 2nd switch on.

Maybe we should both hassle BB. They went quiet after my initial enquiries about the performance!


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## MediumRoastSteam

> 52 minutes ago, MonkeyHarris78 said:
> 
> Tried again today. This time I pulled around 70ml of water from the hot water tap prior to steaming. This made boiler kick in again. As soon as steam pressure hit 1.5 bar I did a quick blast on the steam wand and tried again.
> Result was marginally improved but ultimately the same. I also set temp to number 2 to see if that would have any effect but it didn't.


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## DavecUK

MonkeyHarris78 said:


> Tried again today. This time I pulled around 70ml of water from the hot water tap prior to steaming. This made boiler kick in again. As soon as steam pressure hit 1.5 bar I did a quick blast on the steam wand and tried again.
> Result was marginally improved but ultimately the same. I also set temp to number 2 to see if that would have any effect but it didn't.


 @MonkeyHarris

1. H*ow much milk were you steaming*, I've steamed milk for a latte and it never took 1m 40 seconds, usually about 45 seconds, perhaps 50 max ?

2. From the sound of the milk it seemed to have reached temp long before your thermometer said so. When you stopped steaming the video ended, was there any thermal lag on that thermometer...did it keep rising.?

3. There was an autofill at 48s, which won't have helped, to make the autofill kick in you only have to pull around 30ml, then wait a moment, usually on most machines the autofill will kick in

4. Even though the autofill kicked in your steam pressure was maintained above 1 bar for over 70s

5. After about 50s where milk steaming would normally end, in fact probably slightly before, MaraX is going to start ramping down to prevent overheating for the next shot.


----------



## itguy

@MonkeyHarris - as @DavecUK asks above in his question 1 - can you measure out how much milk you are trying to steam? I can then do a video on my MaraX here of trying to do the same. I don't usually use a thermometer but I have a digital one so I can video it all and compare. I will do a 30ml hot water pull first to kick the auto fill in too beforehand.

Thanks


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> @MonkeyHarris
> 
> 1. H*ow much milk were you steaming*, I've steamed milk for a latte and it never took 1m 40 seconds, usually about 45 seconds, perhaps 50 max ?
> 
> 2. From the sound of the milk it seemed to have reached temp long before your thermometer said so. When you stopped steaming the video ended, was there any thermal lag on that thermometer...did it keep rising.?
> 
> 3. There was an autofill at 48s, which won't have helped, to make the autofill kick in you only have to pull around 30ml, then wait a moment, usually on most machines the autofill will kick in
> 
> 4. Even though the autofill kicked in your steam pressure was maintained above 1 bar for over 70s
> 
> 5. After about 50s where milk steaming would normally end, in fact probably slightly before, MaraX is going to start ramping down to prevent overheating for the next shot.


 Hi Dave,

thanks for your help. It was your video that made me realise there was an issue.

1. I have always filled milk to the bottom of the spout on the pitcher. I estimated this was around 300ml but I just measured it and it is 240ml

2. Not the case. The thermometer is incredibly reactive maybe only 1-2 second lag. I've been using it for years. I usually go to 65c but gave up on 60c here. It was noticeably cooler than usual. I could still hold the pitcher in my hands.

3. I have tried numerous combinations. No flush after shot, flushing after shot, cranking the steam a few times. On this occasion I forced a refill before steaming. I pulled some water from the hot water tap and pressure on steam dropped down. It then slowly returned to 1.5 which is when I started.

4. Perhaps this is my technique but the milk is just not getting hot. I even left this one out for half an hour to warm it to room temp. The milk did initially roll very nicely but then as pressure fell away I was unabe to continue so opted to get nozzle deeper to try and at least get the temp up. I've mentioned it before but I came from the Silvia. The power and heat and night and day to this. I can work with less pressure but it's just not heating the milk. I only put the thermometer in as a visual proof that the temp is not getting up.

5. Ok this is interesting. So there is a relatively small window to work in? Any ideas how I can prove/disprove there is an issue?


----------



## itguy

I have a jug which I can steam 240ml of milk in, so will video it and post up a bit later on. My MaraX is just warming up now.

I wonder if it is milk steaming technique. I have found that the two steam holes on the steam tip mean that I have to be quite specific about whereI put the wand in the jug to get a decent roll on the milk.

I don't try to get the milk to spin at all. I introduce air to the milk slowly at the start then go fairly deep with the wand to get a decent roll on the milk to incorporate it all.

Could it be that the temperature of the milk where the thermometer is reading (ie the tip of it at the bottom) is cold, but the temp of the milk swirling around at the top is HOT. It certainly sounds like it from the sound it is making?

It will be easier to explain in my video I'll post up in a bit....


----------



## MonkeyHarris

> 1 hour ago, MediumRoastSteam said:
> 
> I re-watched this. Something is not right. It cannot take this long to steam milk. It took one and a half minutes. It's insane. The pumped kicked in after 40 seconds, and, even so, the pressure was around 1.4 bar, and remained so for another 15 seconds.
> 
> Is there a blockage or something that it's leading to all of this? I steam 250ml of milk on my Elizabeth in just under 40 seconds, at 2 bar / 1.5 bar pressure. It's a much smaller boiler than the MaraX. As far as I know, my friends MaraX didn't do what I'm seeing on your machine at all.
> 
> try changing your steaming technique. do this:
> - remove that thermometer.
> - place the tip very close to the wall of the jug, just barely under the surface.
> - open the tap fully.
> 
> you want the milk to roll. I can't see you milk moving, at all.
> 
> See this, as an example. 250ml of milk.


 I agree something is definitely not right. I measured milk and it was 240ml.

I only put thermometer in to show it is not reaching temp.

Milk rolled well initially but as it ran out of steam it stopped so I opted to just lower tip and try and get some heat in there.

I'll do another video of my technique from above. I still need to hone it with this machine but I'm not convinced that is the sole issue. Not once has it reached temp without the pressure drop.

Does steam pressure = heat or is it possible to have the pressure but not enough heat? I thought they would be related but now I don't know....makes no sense to me


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> I have a jug which I can steam 240ml of milk in, so will video it and post up a bit later on. My MaraX is just warming up now.
> 
> I wonder if it is milk steaming technique. I have found that the two steam holes on the steam tip mean that I have to be quite specific about whereI put the wand in the jug to get a decent roll on the milk.
> 
> I don't try to get the milk to spin at all. I introduce air to the milk slowly at the start then go fairly deep with the wand to get a decent roll on the milk to incorporate it all.
> 
> Could it be that the temperature of the milk where the thermometer is reading (ie the tip of it at the bottom) is cold, but the temp of the milk swirling around at the top is HOT. It certainly sounds like it from the sound it is making?
> 
> It will be easier to explain in my video I'll post up in a bit....


 Thanks for your help. The thermometer is really reactive. I know it's not getting up to temp as it's not hot to touch.

Milk rolled really nicely intially but then stopped as pressure dropped. Surely even without the milk frothing skills honed it should at least get up to temp? I've never had this issue even with my old Dualit 2 in 1 machine that would be about 20 years old now


----------



## itguy

@MonkeyHarris here you go. As you can see in this video I pulled quite a bit of water out of the boiler and it then slowly started to get the pressure back. I started steaming quicker than I usually would do (ie before it got to 1.5bar) and for this reason the steam pressure did drop down. However, even with this low pressure the milk steaming got the milk to 65c within about 60s. It would usually be quicker than this obviously with between 1.5 and 1.0 bar and the roll is stronger too.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

That's a massive auto fill, I have to say! Over 20 seconds! Does this sound normal @DavecUK?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

> 17 minutes ago, itguy said:
> 
> @MonkeyHarris here you go. As you can see in this video I pulled quite a bit of water out of the boiler and it then slowly started to get the pressure back. I started steaming quicker than I usually would do (ie before it got to 1.5bar) and for this reason the steam pressure did drop down. However, even with this low pressure the milk steaming got the milk to 65c within about 60s. It would usually be quicker than this obviously with between 1.5 and 1.0 bar and the roll is stronger too.


 Thanks. That's interesting. Is yours an older version? You have a different steam wand to mine.

Your steam power stayed more stable than mine. I'm still a bit underwhelmed by the power though. I'm used to rolling the milk all the way until it reaches temp...if you let the pressure get all the way up to 1.5 bars before starting does it allow for that?


----------



## itguy

Yes it does - i was rushing a bit in the video, hence the low pressure. I should have waited a bit longer after pulling the water out of the hot water wand.

The hot water wand on my MaraX I changed myself to be an Expobar short one because the original one didn't fit too well next to my cupboard where the machine is. My MaraX is about 3 months old from Bella Barista. Steam wand and tip is standard.


----------



## itguy

I'll try and do another video for you tomorrow morning when I make our usual drinks. I typically steam that amount of milk so with the machine on after a proper warm up it will be more representative.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Yes it does - i was rushing a bit in the video, hence the low pressure. I should have waited a bit longer after pulling the water out of the hot water wand.
> 
> The hot water wand on my MaraX I changed myself to be an Expobar short one because the original one didn't fit too well next to my cupboard where the machine is. My MaraX is about 3 months old from Bella Barista. Steam wand and tip is standard.


 Thanks. Really appreciate that. I basically do the same as you.


----------



## DavecUK

@MediumRoastSteam Length of autofill looked normal...there is always a slight delay before it kicks in, had he waited the machine might have autofilled...but yeah, no problem there.


----------



## DavecUK

@MonkeyHarris For that quantity of milk, it simply shouldn't take that long to steam....I do my tests on 400ml of cold water from about 15C to 75C...would never take that long. I seem to remember it was a moderate steamer, which means it would have completed that test in around 65s.

If the pressure is good, which it is, and the milk quantity is OK, which it is and the thermometer is OK, which you say it is....if the milks not rolling well and heating well, the laws of physics don't change..The only assumption to make is a blockage in the tip, often this is inside and although you can poke something in the holes, the blockage falls in again.

Did it EVER steam normally.....

*Check the tip inside for a blockage....really check it*

Otherwise the lack of heating makes no logical sense....

P.S. it's definitelytaking so long that I'm 99% certain the system is ramping down again for the next shot


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@MonkeyHarris @MonkeyHarris78 (are you guys the same?)
@djrustycans

defo check the inwards of your steam wands. Take the tip off (just unscrew it) and blast some steam through the wand. With a toothpick, safety pin, pin, needle, Back of a Pallo brush, whatever, make sure those holes in the tip are free of any residue or caked milk or whatever else. As I mentioned earlier and so did Dave, it's completely, totally abnormal to take more than 50s at 1.5bar to steam 250ml of cold milk.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> @MonkeyHarris For that quantity of milk, it simply shouldn't take that long to steam....I do my tests on 400ml of cold water from about 15C to 75C...would never take that long. I seem to remember it was a moderate steamer, which means it would have completed that test in around 65s.
> 
> If the pressure is good, which it is, and the milk quantity is OK, which it is and the thermometer is OK, which you say it is....if the milks not rolling well and heating well, the laws of physics don't change..The only assumption to make is a blockage in the tip, often this is inside and although you can poke something in the holes, the blockage falls in again.
> 
> Did it EVER steam normally.....
> 
> *Check the tip inside for a blockage....really check it*
> 
> Otherwise the lack of heating makes no logical sense....
> 
> P.S. it's definitelytaking so long that I'm 99% certain the system is ramping down again for the next shot


 thanks Dave. I will take a look. I opened it brand new on Xmas day and it has never been able to steam properly. It's from BB. I know they wet tested it before sending out as there was limescale/water mark in the drip tray.

When I open steam valve I do get 2 nice clear jets of steam. I'll take a look shortly.


----------



## DavecUK

I rechecked one of my old videos, have a watch.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

> 1 minute ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> I rechecked one of my old videos, have a watch.


 I've watched this several times and copied exactly...albeit not soya milk. Currently mine does not perform like this


----------



## DavecUK

I guess you need to contact BB by the sound of things.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> I guess you need to contact BB by the sound of things.


 Yes seems that way. I have dropped them a line so hopefully hear back soon.

In the meantime I will check over the steam tip etc. thanks for your help.


----------



## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> I guess you need to contact BB by the sound of things.


 The steaming was very quick there in your video! Albeit, I'm steaming a larger volume and usually 2 lots within a couple of minutes. My steam pressure drops so often, there must be something wrong. It's fine in HX mode however...


----------



## Doram

@MonkeyHarris, @djrustycans - I made the video below for another purpose, but it shows the pressure and time of steaming (starting at about 2 minutes).

You can see that the pressure doesn't drop and the pump doesn't kick in. I never do anything to induce a re-fill before steaming - but it never re-fills in mid steaming (as far as I can remember - it never happened, used twice a day for over 6 months). I just brew, clean the PF and then steam - you can follow the whole workflow in the video, and it always performs the same.

You can also hear that the stretching of the milk lasts about 10 seconds, and then about 30 more seconds to heat the milk to too-hot-to-touch temp (60-65C). This is for a single latte in a small 350ml jug, but it doesn't take very much longer to steam for two lattes in a 600ml jug.

If when you try to replicate this you get what is seen in your video (pump kicks in, pressure drops, milk still cold after a minute of steaming) - then it seems that something is wrong with your machine.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

> 38 minutes ago, Doram said:
> 
> @MonkeyHarris, @djrustycans - I made the video below for another purpose, but it shows the pressure and time of steaming (starting at about 2 minutes).
> 
> You can see that the pressure doesn't drop and the pump doesn't kick in. I never do anything to induce a re-fill before steaming - but it never re-fills in mid steaming (as far as I can remember - it never happened, used twice a day for over 6 months). I just brew, clean the PF and then steam - you can follow the whole workflow in the video, and it always performs the same.
> 
> You can also hear that the stretching of the milk lasts about 10 seconds, and then about 30 more seconds to heat the milk to too-hot-to-touch temp (60-65C). This is for a single latte in a small 350ml jug, but it doesn't take very much longer to steam for two lattes in a 600ml jug.
> 
> If when you try to replicate this you get what is seen in your video (pump kicks in, pressure drops, milk still cold after a minute of steaming) - then it seems that something is wrong with your machine.


 Thanks. Wow, what difference.

I think there is clearly something wrong with our machines.

Will be speaking to BB on Monday.


----------



## djrustycans

> 2 hours ago, Doram said:
> 
> @MonkeyHarris, @djrustycans - I made the video below for another purpose, but it shows the pressure and time of steaming (starting at about 2 minutes).
> 
> You can see that the pressure doesn't drop and the pump doesn't kick in. I never do anything to induce a re-fill before steaming - but it never re-fills in mid steaming (as far as I can remember - it never happened, used twice a day for over 6 months). I just brew, clean the PF and then steam - you can follow the whole workflow in the video, and it always performs the same.
> 
> You can also hear that the stretching of the milk lasts about 10 seconds, and then about 30 more seconds to heat the milk to too-hot-to-touch temp (60-65C). This is for a single latte in a small 350ml jug, but it doesn't take very much longer to steam for two lattes in a 600ml jug.
> 
> If when you try to replicate this you get what is seen in your video (pump kicks in, pressure drops, milk still cold after a minute of steaming) - then it seems that something is wrong with your machine.


 No way!! That's so much faster than mine for steaming - even at the same pressure. Although - I am steaming 350ml so will check tomorrow. Thanks for doing this!

I noticed that after brewing, when you replaced the PF, you lifted the lever briefly - that's something I haven't done..


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> I have a jug which I can steam 240ml of milk in, so will video it and post up a bit later on. My MaraX is just warming up now.
> 
> I wonder if it is milk steaming technique. I have found that the two steam holes on the steam tip mean that I have to be quite specific about whereI put the wand in the jug to get a decent roll on the milk.
> 
> I don't try to get the milk to spin at all. I introduce air to the milk slowly at the start then go fairly deep with the wand to get a decent roll on the milk to incorporate it all.
> 
> Could it be that the temperature of the milk where the thermometer is reading (ie the tip of it at the bottom) is cold, but the temp of the milk swirling around at the top is HOT. It certainly sounds like it from the sound it is making?
> 
> It will be easier to explain in my video I'll post up in a bit....


----------



## djrustycans

> 13 hours ago, Doram said:
> 
> @MonkeyHarris, @djrustycans - I made the video below for another purpose, but it shows the pressure and time of steaming (starting at about 2 minutes).
> 
> You can see that the pressure doesn't drop and the pump doesn't kick in. I never do anything to induce a re-fill before steaming - but it never re-fills in mid steaming (as far as I can remember - it never happened, used twice a day for over 6 months). I just brew, clean the PF and then steam - you can follow the whole workflow in the video, and it always performs the same.
> 
> You can also hear that the stretching of the milk lasts about 10 seconds, and then about 30 more seconds to heat the milk to too-hot-to-touch temp (60-65C). This is for a single latte in a small 350ml jug, but it doesn't take very much longer to steam for two lattes in a 600ml jug.
> 
> If when you try to replicate this you get what is seen in your video (pump kicks in, pressure drops, milk still cold after a minute of steaming) - then it seems that something is wrong with your machine.


 Maybe I'm expecting too much - I steam around 370ml twice. Not back to back though I might add!

It's taking over 1 min 30 to do it each time though. I have to spend a long time getting air into the milk otherwise, using your technique, the milk has no texture or volume. I made a video but my hand is in the way for most of it! The steam pressure dropped after around a minute and the milk is warm but not very hot (sorry, no thermometer attached!)


----------



## Doram

djrustycans said:


> I noticed that after brewing, when you replaced the PF, you lifted the lever briefly - that's something I haven't done.


 The brief lifting of the lever after a shot (with a PF wiggle) is intended to rinse leftover grinds from the shower screen. What I do after the shot is take PF off, rinse it in the sink, then go back to the machine and do the quick PF wiggle rinse. To be honest, I don't think this has anything to do with the steaming performance. I do it 99% of the time, but when I don't - steaming isn't affected.

+ @MonkeyHarris, @itguy - I haven't noticed any difference in steaming power (or anything else) if it's the first or second use of the day, or if the machine has been on for a shorter or longer time. Performance after 30 minutes or after 3 hours is the same for me.

Also, my machine is on brew setting 0 (the coldest) in the video (this is how I currently use it), so that isn't a reason either. I haven't noticed any degrade in steaming power when moving from brew setting 1 to 0.

@djrustycans - 370 ml is a lot of milk! . Still - I have done that (for hot chocolate) - took a little longer but had no issue to get the milk textured and hot (hotter than I do for coffee). If you think the quantity is the issue, maybe do an experiment with a smaller amount of milk and see if this works as it should?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Doram - makes sense, and it makes perfect rational sense. However, given there are 4 people now who are having some sort of issue when steaming - does make me wonder...


----------



## zellleonhart

Reading the recent threads gave me some anxiety because I just took the leap and upgraded from a flair to the Mara X (it should arrive in a week). I hope my machine will not have these issues 😂


----------



## djrustycans

Made a very exhilarating video to show how things are working (or not!). The Mara X has been on for a few hours, so I just go straight in and pull a shot.

I've used my small jug with 250ml of milk and as you can see - it's unpredictable.

The pressure drops whilst steaming before the milk is hot enough.

Apologies - the movie is too large to post but here's the link:

https://share.icloud.com/photos/0mrY_TfqlkqgDLwL7zBG0E3kg#Lymm

I made a 2nd drink immediately after and the pressure stayed stable whilst steaming 370ml of milk - go figure....


----------



## djrustycans

zellleonhart said:


> Reading the recent threads gave me some anxiety because I just took the leap and upgraded from a flair to the Mara X (it should arrive in a week). I hope my machine will not have these issues 😂


 Sorry 😬

Best stay away from here for now!!!

It's a great machine when everything is working as expected!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

zellleonhart said:


> Reading the recent threads gave me some anxiety because I just took the leap and upgraded from a flair to the Mara X (it should arrive in a week). I hope my machine will not have these issues 😂


 Sure it will be fine. At least you know what to check for though 😁


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Made a very exhilarating video to show how things are working (or not!). The Mara X has been on for a few hours, so I just go straight in and pull a shot.
> 
> I've used my small jug with 250ml of milk and as you can see - it's unpredictable.
> 
> The pressure drops whilst steaming before the milk is hot enough.
> 
> Apologies - the movie is too large to post but here's the link:
> 
> https://share.icloud.com/photos/0mrY_TfqlkqgDLwL7zBG0E3kg#Lymm
> 
> I made a 2nd drink immediately after and the pressure stayed stable whilst steaming 370ml of milk - go figure....


 Inability to heat the milk is the odd thing. Like you I have to steam for a long time.

I'm thinking that perhaps the steam gauge is not calibrated correctly and that it's not actually starting at 1.5 bars.


----------



## Doram

djrustycans said:


> I've used my small jug with 250ml of milk and as you can see - it's unpredictable.
> 
> The pressure drops whilst steaming before the milk is hot enough.
> 
> Apologies - the movie is too large to post but here's the link:
> 
> https://share.icloud.com/photos/0mrY_TfqlkqgDLwL7zBG0E3kg#Lymm
> 
> I made a 2nd drink immediately after and the pressure stayed stable whilst steaming 370ml of milk - go figure....


 I watched your video and couldn't spot anything I do differently, and yet your pressure dropped while mine never does. It doesn't look right, and I have no clue what is causing it. Would love to know what it was once you sort it with BB.

One other thing you can try is drop an email to Lelit support. They were very responsive and helpful when I had a question, although I fear the machine might have to go back. 😞


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Doram said:


> I watched your video and couldn't spot anything I do differently, and yet your pressure dropped while mine never does. It doesn't look right, and I have no clue what is causing it. Would love to know what it was once you sort it with BB.
> 
> One other thing you can try is drop an email to Lelit support. They were very responsive and helpful when I had a question, although I fear the machine might have to go back. 😞


 Good idea.

I'm worried it'll have to go back. My wife went on the cleanup rampage and throw out most of the packaging.


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Made a very exhilarating video to show how things are working (or not!). The Mara X has been on for a few hours, so I just go straight in and pull a shot.
> 
> I've used my small jug with 250ml of milk and as you can see - it's unpredictable.
> 
> The pressure drops whilst steaming before the milk is hot enough.
> 
> Apologies - the movie is too large to post but here's the link:
> 
> https://share.icloud.com/photos/0mrY_TfqlkqgDLwL7zBG0E3kg#Lymm
> 
> I made a 2nd drink immediately after and the pressure stayed stable whilst steaming 370ml of milk - go figure....


 That is pretty much a carbon copy of my steaming experience I took a video of and posted up yesterday, apart from I didn't hear the auto fill kick in at any point on yours.

It's like the steam boost function finishes too early?


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> That is pretty much a carbon copy of my steaming experience I took a video of and posted up yesterday, apart from I didn't hear the auto fill kick in at any point on yours.
> 
> It's like the steam boost function finishes too early?


 On this occasion, it didn't need the help of the auto-fill, it failed all by itself 🤦🏻‍♂️

Oh well, at least it's not just me 😆


----------



## MonkeyHarris

As an experiment I just pulled 2 shots, then switched the machine off and put it in HX mode. I then powered up, flushed some water and let the steam pressure come up to 1.5. The only difference was the boiler didn't kick in during steaming but pressure still dropped rapidly to 0.6/7.


----------



## djrustycans

Doram said:


> I watched your video and couldn't spot anything I do differently, and yet your pressure dropped while mine never does. It doesn't look right, and I have no clue what is causing it. Would love to know what it was once you sort it with BB.
> 
> One other thing you can try is drop an email to Lelit support. They were very responsive and helpful when I had a question, although I fear the machine might have to go back. 😞


 Thanks, will keep you all informed! Will possibly try Lelit too. Just glad I kept every piece of packaging - apologies @MonkeyHarris😞


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Thanks, will keep you all informed! Will possibly try Lelit too. Just glad I kept every piece of packaging - apologies @MonkeyHarris😞


 She does the same thing every year after Xmas 

I think I might have to order another new one then send mine back in that packaging. Unless BB have a fix I can do myself.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I just watched the video. It's like there's no steam power. It's weird if you compare to Doram's video, or Dave's, or Lelit's.

It's also very weird that the machine dropped to 0.6bar in Steam priority mode.


----------



## Doram

MonkeyHarris said:


> She does the same thing every year after Xmas
> 
> I think I might have to order another new one then send mine back in that packaging. Unless BB have a fix I can do myself.


 Boxes (and other stuff) I care about are stashed in a place no one can reach but me. 😉 For extra security, everyone knows not to go near my things, lol.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> I just watched the video. It's like there's no steam power. It's weird if you compare to Doram's video, or Dave's, or Lelit's.


 Agreed, this is very strange indeed. I am extra alert to what goes on since this issue emerged, and my steaming is so predictable, powerful and quick no matter what I do. I don't need to do anything special to have this. I remembered today that in the morning I just do a wiggle rinse after a shot, and in the afternoon I add a water backflush before steaming - makes no difference.

Steaming pressure when I finish is just as strong, if not stronger, than when I start. It never drops, never auto fills, never weakens.... I probably shouldn't say that, and definitely don't want the devil to read this post, but something funny is going on with those machines that are loosing power. I hope it will be a quick and easy fix for anyone suffering from this issue.


----------



## Doram

Doram said:


> MonkeyHarris said:
> 
> 
> 
> I think I might have to order another new one then send mine back in that packaging. Unless BB have a fix I can do myself.
> 
> 
> 
> Boxes (and other stuff) I care about are stashed in a place no one can reach but me. 😉
Click to expand...

 For those who thought the above was an exaggeration or a joke: 🤣


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> For those who thought the above was an exaggeration or a joke: 🤣
> 
> View attachment 50553


 Same here. Coffee machine and grinders, as other coffee related equipment packaging, are serious business. 🤣


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Doram said:


> For those who thought the above was an exaggeration or a joke: 🤣
> 
> View attachment 50553


 I've still got the smaller box just not the outside one. Think that's needed for the blue polystyrene corner padding to work.


----------



## itguy

Well after making two drinks successfully this morning first thing (30 mins apart) but then coming back to the machine 3 hours later and having a big steam pressure drop off (1.6bar to 0.6bar, 240ml of milk), I have rang Bella Barista (as I have had a long on-going discussion with Martin there) about taking my machine back in to them to be checked.

I live close by so can drop it in there and I think they'll let me show them the issue on the bench so they can fault find it from there.

I'm hoping they can do this in the next week or two, but I'm just waiting on a call back.

Will keep you posted.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Well after making two drinks successfully this morning first thing (30 mins apart) but then coming back to the machine 3 hours later and having a big steam pressure drop off (1.6bar to 0.6bar, 240ml of milk), I have rang Bella Barista (as I have had a long on-going discussion with Martin there) about taking my machine back in to them to be checked.
> 
> I live close by so can drop it in there and I think they'll let me show them the issue on the bench so they can fault find it from there.
> 
> I'm hoping they can do this in the next week or two, but I'm just waiting on a call back.
> 
> Will keep you posted.


 That's great to know. Martin is a top man. He took the time and spent some time with me when I was trying to diagnose an issue with my machine which turned out to be a non-issue (it was a combination of factors instead).

Good luck.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Well after making two drinks successfully this morning first thing (30 mins apart) but then coming back to the machine 3 hours later and having a big steam pressure drop off (1.6bar to 0.6bar, 240ml of milk), I have rang Bella Barista (as I have had a long on-going discussion with Martin there) about taking my machine back in to them to be checked.
> 
> I live close by so can drop it in there and I think they'll let me show them the issue on the bench so they can fault find it from there.
> 
> I'm hoping they can do this in the next week or two, but I'm just waiting on a call back.
> 
> Will keep you posted.


 That's great. Not that you still have an issue but that you can replicate it.

I spoke to them briefly this morning and sent them video clips. Hoping to hear back soon.


----------



## itguy

That's good @MonkeyHarris that you've done that too, as it will help us all if there seems to be a pattern of issues.

I've found Martin very friendly and supportive so far, so I am sure this will get sorted / explained one way or another.

I think I can replicate it, I better had be able to...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> That's good @MonkeyHarris that you've done that too, as it will help us all if there seems to be a pattern of issues.
> 
> I've found Martin very friendly and supportive so far, so I am sure this will get sorted / explained one way or another.
> 
> I think I can replicate it, I better had be able to...


 Make sure you do! You know... that chap... Murphy? Didn't he come up with some laws? 😂


----------



## itguy

Oh tell me about it. I can just imagine getting there and it performing like the worlds most perfect child.. 🙄


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> That's good @MonkeyHarris that you've done that too, as it will help us all if there seems to be a pattern of issues.
> 
> I've found Martin very friendly and supportive so far, so I am sure this will get sorted / explained one way or another.
> 
> I think I can replicate it, I better had be able to...


 Martin has been in touch via email already and I have sent him what I have. He mentioned that my water may be an issue. I use filtered tap at the moment (just a Brita filter) + obiviously the resin filter that comes with it.

What do you use out of interest?

I know the machine relies on a level of mineral content in the water but my take on Brita filters was that they were not that great at removing minerals. My kettle seems to show the same. I guess I could do a TDS test on the water. I'm in a hard area.


----------



## zellleonhart

I just received my Mara X today, tried pulling 2 shots and both failed miserably as I used grind settings similar to the Flair's, and it's too coarse. Will try with new batch of beans tomorrow morning (it's 11pm here)!

But out of curiosity I tried to steam about 200ml of cold water (8 C) after the 2nd shot and it maintained decent pressure at 1.2~1.3 bar consistently until it reached 60 C. I didn't wait it for to reach 1.5 bar before trying to steam. Hopefully it stays this way...


----------



## itguy

Yep, have been through that with Martin too as he asked me the same. I have been using Tesco Ashbeck water with mine and no Lelit filter, so the mineral content of that is just fine.

I tested my own water (I have a cheapo TDS meter) and it was 180ish I think, but I've never run this 'neat' through my machine. I did originally use the Lelit filter with my tap water though and it behaved the same as it does with Ashbeck.


----------



## itguy

itguy said:


> Well after making two drinks successfully this morning first thing (30 mins apart) but then coming back to the machine 3 hours later and having a big steam pressure drop off (1.6bar to 0.6bar, 240ml of milk), I have rang Bella Barista (as I have had a long on-going discussion with Martin there) about taking my machine back in to them to be checked.
> 
> I live close by so can drop it in there and I think they'll let me show them the issue on the bench so they can fault find it from there.
> 
> I'm hoping they can do this in the next week or two, but I'm just waiting on a call back.
> 
> Will keep you posted.


 Hmmm, it has just struck me that I may not/should not be doing that as I live in a Tier 4 area (and maybe more after the announcements later tonight). I'm waiting for them to call me back so need to talk through with them what options there are.

One day at a time at the moment....


----------



## MonkeyHarris

zellleonhart said:


> I just received my Mara X today, tried pulling 2 shots and both failed miserably as I used grind settings similar to the Flair's, and it's too coarse. Will try with new batch of beans tomorrow morning (it's 11pm here)!
> 
> But out of curiosity I tried to steam about 200ml of cold water (8 C) after the 2nd shot and it maintained decent pressure at 1.2~1.3 bar consistently until it reached 60 C. I didn't wait it for to reach 1.5 bar before trying to steam. Hopefully it stays this way...


 Hopefully yours will be ok then. The machine is a top seller so if it was very common they'd know about it by now.


----------



## djrustycans

I've also emailed Martin @ BB today but got an auto-response about them having high-workloads and understaffing! Glad that Martin is aware of the issues!

FWIW, I use tap water (very soft up here!) with the Lelit filter.


----------



## Doram

MonkeyHarris said:


> He mentioned that my water may be an issue. I use filtered tap at the moment (just a Brita filter) + obiviously the resin filter that comes with it.
> 
> What do you use out of interest?


 I use Tesco Ashbeck and never had the steam power loss issue.

Unless there is something really extreme in the water, I can't see how it would cause such an issue (especially that at least one of the machines having the problem was first used on Christmas day).

I live in a very hard water area. Used a Silvia with un-treated tap water for over 20 years (yes, I know...). Believe it or not, I never had an issue with steaming or otherwise (I did descale when needed).


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Doram said:


> I use Tesco Ashbeck and never had the steam power loss issue.
> 
> Unless there is something really extreme in the water, I can't see how it would cause such an issue (especially that at least one of the machines having the problem was first used on Christmas day).
> 
> I live in a very hard water area. Used a Silvia with un-treated tap water for over 20 years (yes, I know...). Believe it or not, I never had an issue with steaming or otherwise (I did descale when needed).


 Pretty much same as me. My Silvia is 10 years old and used same water. I live in the South East. Water is very hard.

I think the probe requires some mineral content in the water for it to detect the water level. The implication being if it's too soft it might not work properly.

It's only a suggestion at the moment. They have just enquired what water I use.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> I think the probe requires some mineral content in the water for it to detect the water level. The implication being if it's too soft it might not work properly.


 I'd find that hard to believe. Other people here run on an Osmio - which is technically very soft water. I used to run Profitec 700 on Tesco Ashbeck for years, other people here do that too. The fill sensors are pretty much the same thing across the board in how they work. I doubt the water is the culprit. As you may know, I run the Elizabeth on Distiled + 100mg/L of Sodium Bicarbonate. Never had an issue like that, ever. (i.e.: boiler auto-filling during steam, or pressure dropping).

I don't believe the water is to blame here. if you'd like to rule that out, it's simple: drain the boiler, use Volvic. slightly harder, but it is Ph 7, so pretty much spot on in terms of minerals content and that stuff.


----------



## itguy

Well, this new national lockdown seems to have put pay to any thought of dropping my MaraX back to Bella Barista any time soon. I'll have to speak to Martin tomorrow and see what options there are. I do have the box but I'm not sure I'd want to post it if I can help it.

I suspect it is a case of just sit tight until I can take it back down there.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'd find that hard to believe. Other people here run on an Osmio - which is technically very soft water. I used to run Profitec 700 on Tesco Ashbeck for years, other people here do that too. The fill sensors are pretty much the same thing across the board in how they work. I doubt the water is the culprit. As you may know, I run the Elizabeth on Distiled + 100mg/L of Sodium Bicarbonate. Never had an issue like that, ever. (i.e.: boiler auto-filling during steam, or pressure dropping).
> 
> I don't believe the water is to blame here. if you'd like to rule that out, it's simple: drain the boiler, use Volvic. slightly harder, but it is Ph 7, so pretty much spot on in terms of minerals content and that stuff.


 I agree. I don't think this would be the issue. My water has high ph and tds anyway.

It's just what was implied.

Hopefully they'll come back with a solid solution tomorrow. Really hope it doesn't have to go back but doesn't sound like there is a known fix yet.


----------



## itguy

I have had a reply to my email to Lelit themselves on this...

My initial email below:



> There a number of people here in Great Britain who are having problems with inconstant steaming on the MaraX, when we are all trying to use the same process / workflow.
> 
> What we are all seeing is a drop off in steam pressure from around 1.5bar down to about 0.6 or 0.7 bar. Sometimes the boiler auto fill kicks in mid way through steaming and this seems to cause it, and other times it doesn't but the steam pressure still falls right down. This is over the space of around 60 - 70 seconds of steaming - in coffee priority mode.
> 
> Other times, the steaming is excellent, and stays between 1.3 and 1.5bar solidly when steaming for 60-70 seconds.
> 
> We all wonder if there is any logical explanation for this or if you have found this in any machines before?
> 
> I also noticed that there seems to be different versions of the PID software/firmware, with videos from yourselves showing 1.18, 1.19, 1.20 and 1.21 - and I think there is someone who has posted 1.23. I wondered if there was any explanation of the changes between these versions and if any of these might be affecting things?


 Their reply:



> MaraX controls the temperature in the heat exchanger, when the water in the coffee exchanger is at the correct temperature it lowers the temperature in the steam boiler.
> So when Marax is unused it lowers the steam pressure.
> By raising and lowering the coffee lever a range is activated which brings the minimum pressure to 1 bar.
> If we try to raise and lower the coffee lever when the pressure is at 0.7 bar we will see that even if we don't brew coffee the pressure automatically rises a little bit in the next 2 minutes.
> When coffee is brewed, on the other hand, the thrust of the resistance is greater, as the temperature in the exchanger oscillates, first rising in temperature and then falling.
> 
> During coffee brewing, however, the heating element is ON only if the level probe detects the presence of water.
> Therefore, if during coffee brewing the level probe detects a lack of water in the steam part, some actions will take place:
> 1. the loading of the water in the steam boiler is disabled, this would cause a pressure drop in the coffee filter holder.
> 2. the heating element is disabled to prevent damage.
> The coffee brewing process can continue until the end.
> Once the coffee delivery is finished, the loading solenoid valve and the pump will be activated until the ideal level is reached.
> After that, the heating element will be reactivated.
> So if we draw water or steam during coffee brewing there is a possibility that the heating element will turn OFF.
> Therefore, the ideal time to froth milk is after brewing coffee, as the boiler load is enabled and the heating element is ON.
> There have been some small software updates, which do not affect the operation of the machine, they are mainly changes related to the flashing of the ready light and the water level, so nothing has been done yet to justify the software update.


 I am still digesting this, but I have asked them a follow up question re auto-fill kicking in during steaming and if their software update re water level would have changed any of this behaviour.

Great service that they responded.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> I have had a reply to my email to Lelit themselves on this...
> 
> My initial email below:
> 
> Their reply:
> 
> I am still digesting this, but I have asked them a follow up question re auto-fill kicking in during steaming and if their software update re water level would have changed any of this behaviour.
> 
> Great service that they responded.


 Great that they have responded but they don't seem to offer any explanation to the problem or a possible solution.

Really hoping I hear back from BB today. It's my birthday tomorrow and wife has got me a new milk pitcher 😂


----------



## itguy

Yes agree, hoping they can shed further light on the matter. I haven't had a call back from BB yet at all after trying to contact Martin (I rang and left a message, I think I'll email him today too).

He must be catching up on a big backlog of work I'd imagine.

I have started an excel sheet log of every single shot/steaming I do on my MaraX starting from today. This will help identify real patterns etc and I can give it to them when I am able to get the machine to them finally.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Yes agree, hoping they can shed further light on the matter. I haven't had a call back from BB yet at all after trying to contact Martin (I rang and left a message, I think I'll email him today too).
> 
> He must be catching up on a big backlog of work I'd imagine.
> 
> I have started an excel sheet log of every single shot/steaming I do on my MaraX starting from today. This will help identify real patterns etc and I can give it to them when I am able to get the machine to them finally.


 Just get Martin to read this thread 😂

I bet he'll be sick at the mere mention of Mara X by the end of this week..


----------



## itguy

Or he will understand that the fact that there are quite a few of us experiencing the same thing means that there is an actual issue, rather than it being user error or water softness etc.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Yes agree, hoping they can shed further light on the matter. I haven't had a call back from BB yet at all after trying to contact Martin (I rang and left a message, I think I'll email him today too).
> 
> He must be catching up on a big backlog of work I'd imagine.
> 
> I have started an excel sheet log of every single shot/steaming I do on my MaraX starting from today. This will help identify real patterns etc and I can give it to them when I am able to get the machine to them finally.


 There may not be an obvious pattern to this issue. Mine has never worked, even in HX mode. But if you do find a pattern it might point in the right direction 🤞


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> There may not be an obvious pattern to this issue. Mine has never worked, even in HX mode. But if you do find a pattern it might point in the right direction 🤞


 Can you explain your exact test/workflow in HX mode so I can try that on mine this afternoon too?


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Can you explain your exact test/workflow in HX mode so I can try that on mine this afternoon too?


 When I first tried HX mode, a couple of weeks after getting the machine in November. I had a pressure drop when the boiler autofill kicked in. I went back to BTP after this until I was in contact with Martin and he suggested trying things in mode 'II'.

The steam was completely stable no matter what I did really (1.5 bar). This is where our conversations ended. The original pressure drop in HX could just have been bad luck with the timing of the autofill. Workflow wise, I could just pull a shot and steam as you'd expect. I wasn't convinced about the espresso though but it's less obvious with milk drinks which is all I do here..

Just had to nip out after making my wife the first drink today which was perfectly normal. Came back 30 mins later and pulled a shot, then waited for the pressure to rise as per Lelit's advice above (let's face it, we've all been doing this anyway). Started steaming with pressure at 1.5 and it just catastrophically failed again with the pressure going down to around 0.6 and the wand screeching. I stopped and waited for the pressure to rise and started again but the steam power was really poor. Milk ruined!

The Lelit response as already said doesn't really address the issue we're facing - I'm not sure they realise how bad it is? Must be a bad batch of units, surely?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Can you explain your exact test/workflow in HX mode so I can try that on mine this afternoon too?


 Perhaps my workflow was wrong. I pulled my shots in brew priority mode. Then switched off the machine and changed to HX mode. Switched back on pulled some water through the group head, waited for steam pressure to stop rising (1.5 bar) then streamed. Boiler on this occasion didn't kick in but steam still ran out.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Perhaps my workflow was wrong. I pulled my shots in brew priority mode. Then switched off the machine and changed to HX mode. Switched back on pulled some water through the group head, waited for steam pressure to stop rising (1.5 bar) then streamed. Boiler on this occasion didn't kick in but steam still ran out.


 It takes at least 15 mins to transition from one mode to the other! I've switched mine across now so I'll report back in an hour or two. I'd be really surprised if you didn't find an improvement in the steaming stability.

However, we shouldn't be forced into running in HX just to steam milk reliably!!


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Just had to nip out after making my wife the first drink today which was perfectly normal. Came back 30 mins later and pulled a shot, then waited for the pressure to rise as per Lelit's advice above (let's face it, we've all been doing this anyway). Started steaming with pressure at 1.5 and it just catastrophically failed again with the pressure going down to around 0.6 and the wand screeching. I stopped and waited for the pressure to rise and started again but the steam power was really poor. Milk ruined!


 Did the auto-fill kick in during this particular steaming?

I just went and made our mid-morning split shot (I make a double shot and split it over two small cappos) drinks, and the steaming 'failed' on that just now. Started at 1.5bar, ended at 0.6bar, with the auto-fill kicking in at around 1bar.


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> However, we shouldn't be forced into running in HX just to steam milk reliably!!


 100% this. I bought the MaraX on the strength of the reviews and 'clever' PID X mode, not because I wanted a HX machine.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> It takes at least 15 mins to transition from one mode to the other! I've switched mine across now so I'll report back in an hour or two. I'd be really surprised if you didn't find an improvement in the steaming stability.
> 
> However, we shouldn't be forced into running in HX just to steam milk reliably!!


 Ok, didn't know that. I never planned to run in HX mode so didn't really research it.

Agreed. Bottom line is these are very expensive machines that are unable to reliably perform 50% of what they are supposed to do. I don't mind using a work around for a short time until a permanent fix can be found but in all honesty I want it replaced sooner rather than later.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Did the auto-fill kick in during this particular steaming?
> 
> I just went and made our mid-morning split shot (I make a double shot and split it over two small cappos) drinks, and the steaming 'failed' on that just now. Started at 1.5bar, ended at 0.6bar, with the auto-fill kicking in at around 1bar.


 I think not in this case.. Often, I think the pressure drops anyway - doesn't always appear to be caused by the refill.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> 100% this. I bought the MaraX on the strength of the reviews and 'clever' PID X mode, not because I wanted a HX machine.


 Same..


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Ok, didn't know that. I never planned to run in HX mode so didn't really research it.
> 
> Agreed. Bottom line is these are very expensive machines that are unable to reliably perform 50% of what they are supposed to do. I don't mind using a work around for a short time until a permanent fix can be found but in all honesty I want it replaced sooner rather than later.


 Absolutely!


----------



## itguy

Well, Lelit have just asked for a photo of my serial number sticker on the back of the machine. No explanation as to why, but I can only assume they are wanting to look at what the build date is, what PID software it might be running etc?

We'll see...

I've emailed Martin @ BB too. Poor chap.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Well, Lelit have just asked for a photo of my serial number sticker on the back of the machine. No explanation as to why, but I can only assume they are wanting to look at what the build date is, what PID software it might be running etc?
> 
> We'll see...
> 
> I've emailed Martin @ BB too. Poor chap.


 Interesting... Which contact details are you using for Lelit? Wondering if it's worth me also emailing them with the issues.

Have you gone into detail about the loss of pressure etc?


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Interesting... Which contact details are you using for Lelit? Wondering if it's worth me also emailing them with the issues.
> 
> Have you gone into detail about the loss of pressure etc?


 Yes have gone into a load of detail. I just emailed their support at [email protected] email address. I wonder if when they email me back next if I say to them that there are others with the same issues and offer that they (ie you) email them too, so they can collate the issues together to help them fault-find?

I wonder how connected they are to their resellers / warranty claims - ie they may not know there are any issues unless we raise their awareness...


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> I wonder if when they email me back next if I say to them that there are others with the same issues and offer that they (ie you) email them too, so they can collate the issues together to help them fault-find?


 Great, yes that would be really helpful. Good work!


----------



## itguy

Fingers crossed.

Have just spoken to Martin, he is sorting an RMA form out for me to get the machine back to them for investigation.

He said that they have all the spares there and may repair / replace the whole machine depending on what they think.

I will wait I think until I have heard back from Lelit too though, as if they come back with something 'interesting' then I may try and think of a tactful way of connecting Martin with the Lelit information, as that might fast-track a solution for us.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Fingers crossed.
> 
> Have just spoken to Martin, he is sorting an RMA form out for me to get the machine back to them for investigation.
> 
> He said that they have all the spares there and may repair / replace the whole machine depending on what they think.
> 
> I will wait I think until I have heard back from Lelit too though, as if they come back with something 'interesting' then I may try and think of a tactful way of connecting Martin with the Lelit information, as that might fast-track a solution for us.


 That's great - moving fast! I requested an RMA early December and nothing ever happened so I just decided to keep testing the machine to see if it was user error!

Isn't the return at our expense though? It's a bloody heavy thing - might cost a small fortune..


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> That's great - moving fast! I requested an RMA early December and nothing ever happened so I just decided to keep testing the machine to see if it was user error!
> 
> Isn't the return at our expense though? It's a bloody heavy thing - might cost a small fortune..


 That worries me also. I've only had it since Xmas day but my wife ordered it at the end of October as she was worried about stock.

Do you both have the original outer box? I have the smaller internal box and blue bits but not that one. If you do could you let me know dimensions as I might have to order one of those also ☹

This is becoming a nightmare.


----------



## DavecUK

I've been reading this whole thread with interest. Few things I'm not clear about.

1. Why are people switching the machine off going from BTP to STP (or HX mode). I don't remember having to do that?

2. The workflow everyone is using, general confusion in my mind about who is doing what.

It might be good to determine what's happening if people try and agree a standard test as well as a standard workflow.

Standard test (machine should have been on for 45m or longer and the last coffee should have been 15 minutes ago)



Machine set to 0 in BTP


Lift lever 5s

How many sec to reach maximum steam pressure?


What was that pressure?


Did the autofill run at all (as invalidates test)?



The pressure not be rising, so place steam wand in jug of water and open steam tap.

Time until pressure reaches 0.8 bar?



The above would make a good standard test....and interesting to see the results.

Someone else should design a standard workflow for coffee, then steaming, similar to above.


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> That's great - moving fast! I requested an RMA early December and nothing ever happened so I just decided to keep testing the machine to see if it was user error!
> 
> Isn't the return at our expense though? It's a bloody heavy thing - might cost a small fortune..


 BB have been fantastic so far. Return is not at my expense as it is warranty (Martins words), so I am asking them to arrange a courier to collect it. I have all the original packing materials.


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> That worries me also. I've only had it since Xmas day but my wife ordered it at the end of October as she was worried about stock.
> 
> Do you both have the original outer box? I have the smaller internal box and blue bits but not that one. If you do could you let me know dimensions as I might have to order one of those also ☹
> 
> This is becoming a nightmare.


 I can measure my outer box when I get it back (neighbour has it in their loft for me !).


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> BB have been fantastic so far. Return is not at my expense as it is warranty (Martins words), so I am asking them to arrange a courier to collect it. I have all the original packing materials.


 Same - just come off the phone, they will re-imburse the courier costs. Great service!


----------



## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> I've been reading this whole thread with interest. Few things I'm not clear about.
> 
> 1. Why are people switching the machine off going from BTP to STP (or HX mode). I don't remember having to do that?
> 
> 2. The workflow everyone is using, general confusion in my mind about who is doing what.
> 
> It might be good to determine what's happening if people try and agree a standard test as well as a standard workflow.
> 
> Standard test (machine should have been on for 45m or longer and the last coffee should have been 15 minutes ago)
> 
> 
> 
> Machine set to 0 in BTP
> 
> 
> Lift lever 5s
> 
> How many sec to reach maximum steam pressure?
> 
> 
> What was that pressure?
> 
> 
> Did the autofill run at all (as invalidates test)?
> 
> 
> 
> The pressure not be rising, so place steam wand in jug of water and open steam tap.
> 
> Time until pressure reaches 0.8 bar?
> 
> 
> 
> The above would make a good standard test....and interesting to see the results.
> 
> Someone else should design a standard workflow for coffee, then steaming, similar to above.


 Thanks Dave! Not generally switching between modes but did it today without powering off. Will have a go at your test but I've switched to HX for next coffee to check the results!


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> That worries me also. I've only had it since Xmas day but my wife ordered it at the end of October as she was worried about stock.
> 
> Do you both have the original outer box? I have the smaller internal box and blue bits but not that one. If you do could you let me know dimensions as I might have to order one of those also ☹
> 
> This is becoming a nightmare.


 I do have the outer box but had to flat pack it to fit it through my loft hatch! Will measure it ASAP if @itguy doesn't beat me to it!


----------



## itguy

DavecUK said:


> I've been reading this whole thread with interest. Few things I'm not clear about.
> 
> 1. Why are people switching the machine off going from BTP to STP (or HX mode). I don't remember having to do that?
> 
> 2. The workflow everyone is using, general confusion in my mind about who is doing what.
> 
> It might be good to determine what's happening if people try and agree a standard test as well as a standard workflow.
> 
> Standard test (machine should have been on for 45m or longer and the last coffee should have been 15 minutes ago)
> 
> 
> 
> Machine set to 0 in BTP
> 
> 
> Lift lever 5s
> 
> How many sec to reach maximum steam pressure?
> 
> 
> What was that pressure?
> 
> 
> Did the autofill run at all (as invalidates test)?
> 
> 
> 
> The pressure not be rising, so place steam wand in jug of water and open steam tap.
> 
> Time until pressure reaches 0.8 bar?
> 
> 
> 
> The above would make a good standard test....and interesting to see the results.
> 
> Someone else should design a standard workflow for coffee, then steaming, similar to above.


 Thanks Dave, your input is always very very valuable in these discussions.

My answers;

1) I have never used HX mode, always BTP mode.

2) My workflow has always been, no flushing or 'waking up' anything etc. Walk up (after 1.5hr warm up in the morning), pull shot, clean PF, steam. I've done this three times today and once (shot number 3 of 3) I got the steaming issue.

In terms of the test you describe, I can try that on my machine later.

My expectation is that the time for the last test (time until 0.8bar) will vary dramatically depending on how many steaming sessions the machine has had since it last auto-filled the boiler.


----------



## DavecUK

itguy said:


> 2) My workflow has always been, no flushing or 'waking up' anything etc. Walk up (after 1.5hr warm up in the morning), pull shot, clean PF, steam. I've done this three times today and once (shot number 3 of 3) I got the steaming issue.
> 
> In terms of the test you describe, I can try that on my machine later.
> 
> My expectation is that the time for the last test (time until 0.8bar) will vary dramatically depending on how many steaming sessions the machine has had since it last auto-filled the boiler.


 The difficulty is, I can't get a handle on what's happening in 6 pages of discussion, it's all so random (results and peoples processes). It's no good me testing mine as I don't have any problem. Also by the time there are enough of these tests, my MaraX will have prototype firmware installed (which may never be implemented). It's a different concept for the machine, so not relevant to this discussion. It does mean that I won't be able to read the results of peoples tests and, see if I can make my machine do the same thing


----------



## itguy

Understood Dave. Have you started swapping bits out of your MaraX yet? My repeatable process which seems to give issues is;

Machine on from cold at 5am

Pull first double shot, clean PF, steam at 6:30am - steam ok

Pull second double shot, clean PF, steam at 7:15am - steam ok

Machine left on (eco mode disabled)

Pull third double shot, clean PF, steam at 10:30am - steam fails and ends up with an auto-fill mid-steam.

Milk quantity 240ml for each steaming.

Machine is in BTP mode, temp setting I.

Machine off. Next day, repeat.


----------



## Doram

MonkeyHarris said:


> Really hoping I hear back from BB today. It's my birthday tomorrow and wife has got me a new milk pitcher 😂


 Happy birthday on account! And yea, give it a go with the new pitcher, maybe that will solve the problem. If not, try steaming with the other hand, facing to the east. 😉

+ @itguy, @djrustycans

Seriously - I have also been following all messages, and having used the machine every day without this issue and comparing it to your videos and descriptions - this is my conclusion:

The issue seems to be with keeping the pressure, not with reaching it. It's like once you starts steaming, you have a puncture, or a leak of the pressure somewhere other than where the steam needs to go. In the videos, you start brewing at around 06-0.7 bar (like mine), this wakes the heating to steam pressure as it should and gets the machine to around 1.5 bar (like mine). But then you start steaming the pressure starts dropping, which never happens on mine. So in my view you have isolated the issue to this point.

I am not an engineer, but my common sense tells me this can either be caused by the heating element turning off, or by physically leaking water or steam somewhere. Maybe @DavecUK can say if this is complete nonsense.

It might be interesting, just as an experiment, to try to start steaming at 1.5 bar when the machine is in steam priority (some of you already tried, I think, but I didn't understand if you still have the issue or not), to see if this changes anything. I would think if in steam priority it works fine it will point to a problem with the software turning off the heating element in BPM, and if it still doesn't work it would point to some leak of pressure? Not sure if this makes sense.

In any case, good to know BB is taking care of it (I thought they would). Lelit are also very responsive and nice of them to reply, but this really seems like it might be a hardware problem, not something they can fix by email. Eventually things will work out, I think.


----------



## itguy

Doram said:


> it will point to a problem with the software turning on the heating element in BPM


 This is my hunch, as well as potentially something to do with the programming of the auto-fill parameters.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Pull third double shot, clean PF, steam at 10:30am - steam fails and ends up with an auto-fill mid-steam.


 As a test... What happens if you turn the machine off after your 7:15 coffee, and, at 09:50, turn the machine on ready for your 10:30 coffee? What does the machine do?

And, to be doubly sure... if, at 10:30, using your current routine, you draw some water from the water tamp to trigger a refill and then you start steaming, is the issue still there?


----------



## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> As a test... What happens if you turn the machine off after your 7:15 coffee, and, at 09:50, turn the machine on ready for your 10:30 coffee? What does the machine do?
> 
> And, to be doubly sure... if, at 10:30, using your current routine, you draw some water from the water tamp to trigger a refill and then you start steaming, is the issue still there?


 Haven't tried turning the machine off in between shots - but can try that.

In terms of the 10:30 shot, I haven't tried drawing water off to trigger a refill, but I would suspect it would 'solve' the issue. If I get chance before I send the machine back I'll try.


----------



## itguy

I know what I'll try. I will attempt to brew then steam 3 shots in a row, one after the other and see what happens. If it auto-refills during the steaming of the 3rd, I will then do the same again but draw some water out on the 3rd shot.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

I think we've all tried numerous combinations and workflows. I only tried HX mode as BB asked if it worked, probably to try and isolate the issue not as a permanent fix.

As @itguy and @djrustycans machines sometimes work and mine has never worked. I can only deduce that their machines are a bit knackered and mine is completely knackered 😂


----------



## DavecUK

itguy said:


> Understood Dave. Have you started swapping bits out of your MaraX yet? My repeatable process which seems to give issues is;
> 
> Machine on from cold at 5am
> 
> Pull first double shot, clean PF, steam at 6:30am - steam ok
> 
> Pull second double shot, clean PF, steam at 7:15am - steam ok
> 
> Machine left on (eco mode disabled)
> 
> *Pull third double shot, clean PF, steam at 10:30am - steam fails and ends up with an auto-fill mid-steam.*
> 
> Milk quantity 240ml for each steaming.
> 
> Machine is in BTP mode, temp setting I.
> 
> Machine off. Next day, repeat.


 With software, if theres a bug it's not going to look like the above....theres not a record kept of what you did, so each session is a start again. However, if you are a creature of habit, then the same issue is likely to happen each time. I highlighted the bit that is salient in your "repeatable process"

*Pull third double shot, clean PF, steam at 10:30am - steam fails and ends up with an auto-fill mid-steam.* - This is because the probe tip becomes exposed, the machine switches off the heating elements, then it autofills, at which point steam is failing.

You now need to do a specific test. With the machine on and fully warmed up. take very small amounts of hot water from the machine...as small as you can (2-3 ml if possible), after taking each small amount *wait up to 10 seconds!* At some point it's going to autofill...note how many seconds that was after you closed the water wand. *This will tell you any built in delay between switching off the heating elements (which is immediate) and the system calling for an autofill (which might not be?).* I genuinely can't remember but I have used machines with a slight delay between probe exposure and autofill beginning.

You should also try....forcing a boiler autofill after shot 2 and It's quite likely that shot 3 is normal.

It's important to do these tests, as I have some ideas, and it may be possible to program certain things into the system, making it more flexible with the ways people use MaraX.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Doram said:


> Happy birthday on account! And yea, give it a go with the new pitcher, maybe that will solve the problem. If not, try steaming with the other hand, facing to the east. 😉


 😂


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> With software, if theres a bug it's not going to look like the above....theres not a record kept of what you did, so each session is a start again. However, if you are a creature of habit, then the same issue is likely to happen each time. I highlighted the bit that is salient in your "repeatable process"
> 
> *Pull third double shot, clean PF, steam at 10:30am - steam fails and ends up with an auto-fill mid-steam.* - This is because the probe tip becomes exposed, the machine switches off the heating elements, then it autofills, at which point steam is failing.
> 
> You now need to do a specific test. With the machine on and fully warmed up. take very small amounts of hot water from the machine...as small as you can (2-3 ml if possible), after taking each small amount *wait up to 10 seconds!* At some point it's going to autofill...note how many seconds that was after you closed the steam wand. *This will tell you any built in delay between switching off the heating elements (which is immediate) and the system calling for an autofill (which might not be?).* I genuinely can't remember but I have used machines with a slight delay between probe exposure and autofill beginning.
> 
> You should also try....forcing a boiler autofill after shot 2 and It's quite likely that shot 3 is normal.
> 
> It's important to do these tests, as I have some ideas, and it may be possible to program certain things into the system, making it more flexible with the ways people use MaraX.


 I have a feeling is this is not a software bug or after 20+ attempts I should have had at least one success. Same as the other guys. Unless they are unrelated which is possible but seems unlikely. I have copied the exact process and workflow of others and had zero success, regardless of mode, PID temp, 1st/2nd shot, pulling additional water through group head to induce pump first. I suspect some faulty probes but I'm happy to try and replicate any successes others can find in a bid to isolate the issue.


----------



## itguy

DavecUK said:


> You now need to do a specific test. With the machine on and fully warmed up. take very small amounts of hot water from the machine...as small as you can (2-3 ml if possible), after taking each small amount *wait up to 10 seconds!* At some point it's going to autofill...note how many seconds that was after you closed the steam wand. *This will tell you any built in delay between switching off the heating elements (which is immediate) and the system calling for an autofill (which might not be?).* I genuinely can't remember but I have used machines with a slight delay between probe exposure and autofill beginning.
> 
> You should also try....forcing a boiler autofill after shot 2 and It's quite likely that shot 3 is normal.
> 
> It's important to do these tests, as I have some ideas, and it may be possible to program certain things into the system, making it more flexible with the ways people use MaraX.


 Understood. My MaraX is on at the moment, but I will leave it settle down for an hour or so, then do the first test. I can do the second test tomorrow.


----------



## itguy

@DavecUK sorry - just re-read your test and I'm a bit confused.

You now need to do a specific test. With the machine on and fully warmed up. take very small amounts of hot water from the machine...as small as you can (2-3 ml if possible), after taking each small amount *wait up to 10 seconds!* At some point it's going to autofill...note how many seconds that was after you closed the *steam wand*.

Do you mean steam wand at the end of this statement, or do you mean hot water wand?


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> @DavecUK sorry - just re-read your test and I'm a bit confused.
> 
> You now need to do a specific test. With the machine on and fully warmed up. take very small amounts of hot water from the machine...as small as you can (2-3 ml if possible), after taking each small amount *wait up to 10 seconds!* At some point it's going to autofill...note how many seconds that was after you closed the *steam wand*.
> 
> Do you mean steam wand at the end of this statement, or do you mean hot water wand?


 Presuming hot water wand. There would be no easy way to draw tiny amounts from group head I think.


----------



## DavecUK

itguy said:


> @DavecUK sorry - just re-read your test and I'm a bit confused.
> 
> You now need to do a specific test. With the machine on and fully warmed up. take very small amounts of hot water from the machine...as small as you can (2-3 ml if possible), after taking each small amount *wait up to 10 seconds!* At some point it's going to autofill...note how many seconds that was after you closed the *steam wand*.
> 
> Do you mean steam wand at the end of this statement, or do you mean hot water wand?


 Yes hot water wand


----------



## itguy

DavecUK said:


> Yes hot water wand


 Ok - results are;

I pulled these amounts of water out and waited 10s+ after each time; (all in ml)

8.8

7.2

3.3

11.3

1.6

6.9

4

After this last 4ml water take off, the auto fill kicked in almost immediately (within 1 sec I'd say) and then the pump ran for 9 seconds filling.

Does any of this help?!


----------



## djrustycans

I haven't been able to try Dave's test yet as I switched to HX only (switch on middle position for temp) for a test.

I'd left the machine on since this morning..

Just made 2 lattes with normal workflow

1. Brew>steam

The steam pressure stayed between 1 - 1.25 bar for the whole time but the actual power was terrible.

I wasn't able to get any air into the milk or swirl going and the wand was noisy the entire time.

The steaming also took an incredibly long time to get the milk hot - absolutely no texture at all..

Guess the problem isn't limited to the BTP mode then.


----------



## Ilias

DavecUK said:


> I've been reading this whole thread with interest. Few things I'm not clear about.
> 
> 1. Why are people switching the machine off going from BTP to STP (or HX mode). I don't remember having to do that?
> 
> 2. The workflow everyone is using, general confusion in my mind about who is doing what.
> 
> It might be good to determine what's happening if people try and agree a standard test as well as a standard workflow.
> 
> Standard test (machine should have been on for 45m or longer and the last coffee should have been 15 minutes ago)
> 
> 
> 
> Machine set to 0 in BTP
> 
> 
> Lift lever 5s
> 
> How many sec to reach maximum steam pressure?
> 
> 
> What was that pressure?
> 
> 
> Did the autofill run at all (as invalidates test)?
> 
> 
> 
> The pressure not be rising, so place steam wand in jug of water and open steam tap.
> 
> Time until pressure reaches 0.8 bar?
> 
> 
> 
> The above would make a good standard test....and interesting to see the results.
> 
> Someone else should design a standard workflow for coffee, then steaming, similar to above.


 I just did this test

brew priority, temp at setting 0.

- Lift lever at t= 0 for 5 seconds, pressure 0.6 bar (2h idle)

- t= 35s -> 1 bar

-t = 60 -> 1.25 bar

-t = 75 -> 1.4 bar

-t = 100 -> 1.55 bar (max)

So you should have about 1 bar immediately after the shot and 1.25 just a few seconds later (e.g., by the time you purge the steam etc).


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> I haven't been able to try Dave's test yet as I switched to HX only (switch on middle position for temp) for a test.
> 
> I'd left the machine on since this morning..
> 
> Just made 2 lattes with normal workflow
> 
> 1. Brew>steam
> 
> The steam pressure stayed between 1 - 1.25 bar for the whole time but the actual power was terrible.
> 
> I wasn't able to get any air into the milk or swirl going and the wand was noisy the entire time.
> 
> The steaming also took an incredibly long time to get the milk hot - absolutely no texture at all..
> 
> Guess the problem isn't limited to the BTP mode then.


 It does sound like your problem is slightly different to my problem and others. Have you tried unscrewing the steam tip and checking the holes aren't partially blocked etc? It might also be the case that the no-burn insert is kinked, squashed or there is something funny with it.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> It does sound like your problem is slightly different to my problem and others. Have you tried unscrewing the steam tip and checking the holes aren't partially blocked etc? It might also be the case that the no-burn insert is kinked, squashed or there is something funny with it.


 The only thing is - why does it work perfectly in BTP first thing every morning?! Steam power is fine!!!


----------



## djrustycans

djrustycans said:


> The only thing is - why does it work perfectly in BTP first thing every morning?! Steam power is fine!!!


 I wonder if it works well because I always refill the water tank before first use 🤔


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> The only thing is - why does it work perfectly in BTP first thing every morning?! Steam power is fine!!!


 Hmmm, you've got me there. Not a clue.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

I'll try the test as soon as I finish work.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MediumRoastSteam said:


> As a test... What happens if you turn the machine off after your 7:15 coffee, and, at 09:50, turn the machine on ready for your 10:30 coffee? What does the machine do?
> 
> And, to be doubly sure... if, at 10:30, using your current routine, you draw some water from the water tamp to trigger a refill and then you start steaming, is the issue still there?





djrustycans said:


> The only thing is - why does it work perfectly in BTP first thing every morning?! Steam power is fine!!!


 Presumably related to how filled up the boiler is. Hence my question above. I'm now starting to get confused on what people have tried and haven't tried. It also makes me wonder whether we are assuming the machines discussed here are all suffering from the exact same issue. Maybe they aren't, which is causing a lot of confusion for anyone trying to help. I'm not getting any younger either, as my grandma would say.


----------



## itguy

Just a thought - does the MaraX top up the boiler with a mini auto-fill every time it is started from cold? This may explain the more stable first shot/steam experience we're having?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Just a thought - does the MaraX top up the boiler with a mini auto-fill every time it is started from cold? This may explain the more stable first shot/steam experience we're having?


 Not necessarily, as far as I know. If the probe thinks is low on water, it will top it up. I don't think temperature is an input to the system, but it could be that when the water cools down, it contracts and exposes the probe, triggering a refill at the start.

Edit: Fun fact: I remembered from my physics lessons back in the day... Water expands (rather than contract) between 4 and 0 degrees Celsius.

https://www.toppr.com/content/concept/anomalous-expansion-of-water-210020/

Ever wondered why that bottle of beer exploded inside the freezer? 😉


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Well I finally just got a response from BB and it's very disappointing. I sent 2 videos and a lot of information of everything I had tried etc. and their current verdict is I need to try a different brand of milk.

I reported this over a week ago and sent a lot of information. Feel really frustrated ☹


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> verdict is I need to try a different brand of milk


 Oh my 🤦‍♂️😔 - I feel for you. This is not good.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Oh my 🤦‍♂️😔 - I feel for you. This is not good.


 I've responded. I'm hoping they'll look at what I've sent again. Feel so fed up with it 😔


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Well I finally just got a response from BB and it's very disappointing. I sent 2 videos and a lot of information of everything I had tried etc. and their current verdict is I need to try a different brand of milk.
> 
> I reported this over a week ago and sent a lot of information. Feel really frustrated ☹


 Not great - hoping this gets sorted. Have they not offered the return?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Not great - hoping this gets sorted. Have they not offered the return?


 No. It took a week to get that response. If I don't get some kind of acknowledgement of the issue and resolution tomorrow it puts me on difficult ground. It's not a minor issue that I can overlook.


----------



## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> I've been reading this whole thread with interest. Few things I'm not clear about.
> 
> 1. Why are people switching the machine off going from BTP to STP (or HX mode). I don't remember having to do that?
> 
> 2. The workflow everyone is using, general confusion in my mind about who is doing what.
> 
> It might be good to determine what's happening if people try and agree a standard test as well as a standard workflow.
> 
> Standard test (machine should have been on for 45m or longer and the last coffee should have been 15 minutes ago)
> 
> 
> 
> Machine set to 0 in BTP
> 
> 
> Lift lever 5s
> 
> How many sec to reach maximum steam pressure?
> 
> 
> What was that pressure?
> 
> 
> Did the autofill run at all (as invalidates test)?
> 
> 
> 
> The pressure not be rising, so place steam wand in jug of water and open steam tap.
> 
> Time until pressure reaches 0.8 bar?
> 
> 
> 
> The above would make a good standard test....and interesting to see the results.
> 
> Someone else should design a standard workflow for coffee, then steaming, similar to above.


 Hi @DavecUK

Just tried this in BTP mode (0) from idle - machine has been on all day for tests!

Lifted lever for 5 secs and it took approx 1m 40 secs to reach 1.25 bar before the pressure slowly reduced. Still waiting for it to come back down before timing again with steam wand.

Is this normal?


----------



## DavecUK

djrustycans said:


> Hi @DavecUK
> 
> Just tried this in BTP mode (0) from idle - machine has been on all day for tests!
> 
> Lifted lever for 5 secs and it took approx 1m 40 secs to reach 1.25 bar before the pressure slowly reduced. Still waiting for it to come back down before timing again with steam wand.
> 
> Is this normal?


 We will see when a few other people do it...then we will start to gather a bit of data. my only bit of stupid was forgetting to ask people to measure the amount of hot water that comes from the group in the 5s and record it...(my bad)


----------



## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> We will see when a few other people do it...then we will start to gather a bit of data. my only bit of stupid was forgetting to ask people to measure the amount of hot water that comes from the group in the 5s and record it...(my bad)


 Thanks Dave, I'll do it again but my digital scales are not a very fine resolution!

Just tried again after the machine being idle for over an hour with very different results:

1.
24ml water from group after 5 secs, from lever being pulled. (Should I have waited until water came through before timing?)

2.

1 - 1m 10secs to reach max pressure (1.12 bar approx)


----------



## DavecUK

djrustycans said:


> 1.
> 24ml water from group after 5 secs, from lever being pulled. (Should I have waited until water came through before timing?)


 Nope, from the point the lever is raised e.g. pump runs...this way it checks based on flow per 5 seconds (or allows us to see if some people get 30ml, some 20 etc..


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> Nope, from the point the lever is raised e.g. pump runs...this way it checks based on flow per 5 seconds (or allows us to see if some people get 30ml, some 20 etc..


 I did this earlier but not correctly. Will try again in the morning.

My machine still has eco mode switched on. I like the feature. Should I disable for this. Think it goes into eco mode around 40-45 minutes.


----------



## itguy

DavecUK said:


> Standard test (machine should have been on for 45m or longer and the last coffee should have been 15 minutes ago)
> 
> 
> 
> Machine set to 0 in BTP
> 
> 
> Lift lever 5s
> 
> How many sec to reach maximum steam pressure?
> 
> 
> What was that pressure?
> 
> 
> Did the autofill run at all (as invalidates test)?
> 
> 
> 
> The pressure not be rising, so place steam wand in jug of water and open steam tap.
> 
> Time until pressure reaches 0.8 bar?
> 
> 
> 
> The above would make a good standard test....and interesting to see the results.
> 
> Someone else should design a standard workflow for coffee, then steaming, similar to above.


 BTP, Temp 0

12.5ml of water from group in 5s. I did this test with the PF in place, so need to re-run without just to make sure that isn't hampering things

No auto-fill

1m10s to reach 1.15bar - it didn't go higher than this (timer for this started after the initial 5s)


----------



## itguy

Have just run my test again

17.9ml of water from the group without the PF in place

Same 1m10s to reach 1.2bar this time

No auto-fill


----------



## itguy

DavecUK said:


> You should also try....forcing a boiler autofill after shot 2 and It's quite likely that shot 3 is normal.


 @DavecUK I have tried this today. So after my (perfect) first two shots this morning, I drew 10ml of water out of the boiler and the auto-fill kicked in. Machine use complete by 7:15.

I then left the machine on until I pulled a shot just now (11:30) and the steaming started ok, started falling down to 1bar and then dropped right off mid way through due to an auto-fill. This is against my expectations, I must say.

How can this be?!


----------



## DavecUK

itguy said:


> @DavecUK I have tried this today. So after my (perfect) first two shots this morning, I drew 10ml of water out of the boiler and the auto-fill kicked in. Machine use complete by 7:15.
> 
> I then left the machine on until I pulled a shot just now (11:30) and the steaming started ok, started falling down to 1bar and then dropped right off mid way through due to an auto-fill. This is against my expectations, I must say.
> 
> How can this be?!


 *auto-fill* is the operative word here. You drew 10m ml (I assume immediately, ot at least when the boiler was very hot) after your morning shots and the autofill kicked in... I don't know what happened with temperatures, but I suspect something like this within a few minutes after it filled and started entering cooldown phase:









As the machine cools down, the water contracts slightly...bringing you closer to the autofill point...then pulling the shot may have been enough cooldown to expose the probe, even though the initial pump run initiated steaming and the heater kicked in....the water contraction exposed the probe tip as the HX unit cooled.

My best guess....I'm going to ask Lelit a little more about one specific aspect of the programming


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> *auto-fill* is the operative word here. You drew 10m ml (I assume immediately, ot at least when the boiler was very hot) after your morning shots and the autofill kicked in... I don't know what happened with temperatures, but I suspect something like this within a few minutes after it filled and started entering cooldown phase:
> 
> 
> View attachment 50708
> 
> 
> As the machine cools down, the water contracts slightly...bringing you closer to the autofill point...then pulling the shot may have been enough cooldown to expose the probe, even though the initial pump run initiated steaming and the heater kicked in....the water contraction exposed the probe tip as the HX unit cooled.
> 
> My best guess....I'm going to ask Lelit a little more about one specific aspect of the programming


 Here's my results.

Machine well warmed up for an hour. Pulled a shot, drank it 😊, waited just over 15 minutes for steam pressure to drop back down but it didn't go all the way back to zero.

I then pulled 28ml in 5 seconds from the group head. Including that 5 seconds it took 1 minute 35 to reach 1.6 bar. Oddly it did not settle here it then fluctuated between 1.4 and 1.6 continuously.

I then put the wand in 240ml of water straight out of the tap and opened up fully. For the very first time it steamed rapidly to 65c and hardly any pressure loss. It was as if it could just go on and on. When I stopped it, it was showing 1.5 bar.

the differences to all the other times when it failed.... tap water a bit warmer initially. Only 1 shot pulled prior....waiting 15 minutes for steam pressure to drop first after shot.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MonkeyHarris said:


> Here's my results.
> 
> Machine well warmed up for an hour. Pulled a shot, drank it 😊, waited just over 15 minutes for steam pressure to drop back down but it didn't go all the way back to zero.
> 
> I then pulled 28ml in 5 seconds from the group head. Including that 5 seconds it took 1 minute 35 to reach 1.6 bar. Oddly it did not settle here it then fluctuated between 1.4 and 1.6 continuously.
> 
> I then put the wand in 240ml of water straight out of the tap and opened up fully. For the very first time it steamed rapidly to 65c and hardly any pressure loss. It was as if it could just go on and on. When I stopped it, it was showing 1.5 bar.
> 
> the differences to all the other times when it failed.... tap water a bit warmer initially. Only 1 shot pulled prior....waiting 15 minutes for steam pressure to drop first after shot.


 Hmmm... just reviewed the video I made of this and wasn't quite as quick as I thought. Took around 1 minute 20 to reach 60c not 65c. Think I was just shocked as it seemed faster and boiler didn't kick in. Also pressure did go as low as 1 bar but pulled itself back up.


----------



## itguy

DavecUK said:


> *auto-fill* is the operative word here. You drew 10m ml (I assume immediately, ot at least when the boiler was very hot) after your morning shots and the autofill kicked in... I don't know what happened with temperatures, but I suspect something like this within a few minutes after it filled and started entering cooldown phase:
> 
> 
> View attachment 50708
> 
> 
> As the machine cools down, the water contracts slightly...bringing you closer to the autofill point...then pulling the shot may have been enough cooldown to expose the probe, even though the initial pump run initiated steaming and the heater kicked in....the water contraction exposed the probe tip as the HX unit cooled.
> 
> My best guess....I'm going to ask Lelit a little more about one specific aspect of the programming


 Thanks @DavecUK. If it helps at all, I have just pulled another shot at 13:15 (machine has been left on since the 11:30 shot when the steaming was abortive due to an auto-fill), and on this 13:15 shot, the steaming ALSO had an auto-fill event mid way through. Just prior to this the steam pressure dropped down to around 0.9-1bar.

I've not done anything with the machine other than sit it in standby since the 11:30 shot which auto-filled, so there must be some kind of issue as surely it shouldn't auto-fill on the next immediate use?


----------



## DavecUK

Well I would draw just enough water from the water wand to trigger a boiler autofill, *before I* start the shot. I'll bet it would take very little (warm the cup). Not rely on an autofill I triggered *immediately after the previous shot.*


----------



## itguy

Agreed, I suspect that will work perfectly (I'll do that for all of my shots tomorrow). I'm borderline too much caffeine today now!

In my head though, I'm still struggling to understand where the water has gone if it auto-filled 2 hours ago, sat there unused but switched on and then felt the need to auto-fill after only 30 seconds of steam delivered... That's 40ml or so of water gone somewhere, surely?


----------



## DavecUK

itguy said:


> Agreed, I suspect that will work perfectly (I'll do that for all of my shots tomorrow). I'm borderline too much caffeine today now!
> 
> In my head though, I'm still struggling to understand where the water has gone if it auto-filled 2 hours ago, sat there unused but switched on and then felt the need to auto-fill after only 30 seconds of steam delivered... That's 40ml or so of water gone somewhere, surely?


 I did you a diagram, well copied it...


----------



## other

Hey!
@profesor_historia raised this thread to me. I've got a MaraX and I'm not experiencing any of these issues. I've recorded a video showing my process and you can see how pressure fluctuates. It's in youtube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch/YndbP0jmTvE

Attached, the pressure gauge so you can guesstimate the pressure, since in the video the needle is visible but the scale can't be read.

Hope it helps, there are additional details in the youtube video description!

Cheers,










*Edit: *

C&P of the video description for easiness:

My process to make two espressos and foam milk for one of them on my Lelit Mara X.

My findings are: if I'm quick between espresso 1 and 2, the brewing temp is not too high, but if I wait a bit longer, I need a flush or brewing temp will be too high.

After two espressos pressure is good for milk steaming (1.5-1.7). If I only make one espresso I either wait longer for pressure to increase, do a flush to force it to go up, or simply steam with pressure at 1.4 which is still sufficient.

Hope it helps!


----------



## other

Hey!

Just reading some more of the thread (it's loooong). Not an expert on coffee machines, nor on the Mara X, but I'm wondering:

There must be a probe that tells when the boiler water level is too low, so it refills. And another probe that tells when water level is too high, so it stops the refill.

Wondering if in your Mara X these two are set/adjusted too close to each other, so it has to refill too often and causes temp to decrease, hence lowering down the pressure.

Maybe at least one of these two probes/levels can be slightly adjusted so refills are not so common?

Cheers,


----------



## itguy

other said:


> Hey!
> 
> Just reading some more of the thread (it's loooong). Not an expert on coffee machines, nor on the Mara X, but I'm wondering:
> 
> There must be a probe that tells when the boiler water level is too low, so it refills. And another probe that tells when water level is too high, so it stops the refill.
> 
> Wondering if in your Mara X these two are set/adjusted too close to each other, so it has to refill too often and causes temp to decrease, hence lowering down the pressure.
> 
> Maybe at least one of these two probes/levels can be slightly adjusted so refills are not so common?
> 
> Cheers,


 Looking at all of the technical drawings of the machine, there is only one level sensor probe. I assume that the PID is programmed to auto-fill when this level sensor is exposed, and to fill for X time in seconds, which I measured to be about 9 seconds, and with @DavecUK figures earlier, that should equate to approx 40ml being filled into the boiler.


----------



## other

Got it!

Then maybe pump is for some reason too slow and not pushing enough water in these 9s?


----------



## djrustycans

other said:


> Hey!
> @profesor_historia raised this thread to me. I've got a MaraX and I'm not experiencing any of these issues. I've recorded a video showing my process and you can see how pressure fluctuates. It's in youtube:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch/YndbP0jmTvE
> 
> Attached, the pressure gauge so you can guesstimate the pressure, since in the video the needle is visible but the scale can't be read.
> 
> Hope it helps, there are additional details in the youtube video description!
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> 
> *Edit: *
> 
> C&P of the video description for easiness:
> 
> My process to make two espressos and foam milk for one of them on my Lelit Mara X.
> 
> My findings are: if I'm quick between espresso 1 and 2, the brewing temp is not too high, but if I wait a bit longer, I need a flush or brewing temp will be too high.
> 
> After two espressos pressure is good for milk steaming (1.5-1.7). If I only make one espresso I either wait longer for pressure to increase, do a flush to force it to go up, or simply steam with pressure at 1.4 which is still sufficient.
> 
> Hope it helps!


 Wow! You put me to shame with your barista prowess ????

Very impressive - shame my Mara X isn't as predictable!

Today, I left the machine on from the morning coffees (which behaved perfectly as usual).

The pressure was idle at 0.7 bar approx so I opened the water wand valve and let out a bit of water and the autofill kicked in, also the pressure started to rise.

During this time, I pulled a shot and the steam pressure was at least 1.5 so I steamed the milk and it was great - no issues.

After this, onto drink no.2 - pulled the shot. Steam pressure still high > 1.5.

Half way through steaming, the pressure started dropping fairly rapidly and once it fell below 1 bar with the wand screeching, the autofill kicked in and pressure continued to drop!

As an experiment, I left the pressure to rise again and when it reached 1.5, I steamed a jug of water - no problems!

Tried again after a couple of mins - no problems.

Tried once more after a couple of mins - pressure randomly dropped! As before, not apparently caused by autofill..


----------



## other

The trick with this machine IMHO is that when it comes to brewing I assume it will do the right thing.

So if I find it at 0.7 when I want to make my coffee, I assume that this is the correct pressure for the temp I need in my coffee (probably because there's a lot of heat in the group already).

What I mean is I wouldn't flush before brewing the first shot. I only flush when I want to reduce temperature between shots if I feel it's too high after one shot because the machine has gone into ready-to-steam.


----------



## other

Also I don't consider this a machine for intensive steaming. I got it because I don't have coffee with milk and I never steam for more than two coffees (I usually steam about 175ml and occasionally about 300ml).

So I'm not surprised that steaming three times with a few minutes in between hits the machine limits.


----------



## djrustycans

other said:


> The trick with this machine IMHO is that when it comes to brewing I assume it will do the right thing.
> 
> So if I find it at 0.7 when I want to make my coffee, I assume that this is the correct pressure for the temp I need in my coffee (probably because there's a lot of heat in the group already).
> 
> What I mean is I wouldn't flush before brewing the first shot. I only flush when I want to reduce temperature between shots if I feel it's too high after one shot because the machine has gone into ready-to-steam.


 I don't normally flush at all before shots.. This was an experiment to see if I had more stable steam pressure by using the water wand to kick the boiler into action.

Also, the unstable steam happens often if it's just one lot of milk - this was an unusual situation to try several times.

In HX mode (STP), I've also had problems with steam...!!


----------



## other

I would just call Lelit and ask them to check the machine then. I can definitely tell that this does not feel normal to me, specially if it happens all the time. Maybe it's some sensor, the pump speed, or a poor heating power, who knows!

Cheers,


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> I don't normally flush at all before shots.. This was an experiment to see if I had more stable steam pressure by using the water wand to kick the boiler into action.
> 
> Also, the unstable steam happens often if it's just one lot of milk - this was an unusual situation to try several times.
> 
> In HX mode (STP), I've also had problems with steam...!!


 Have you got agreement to return yours to BB?


----------



## Doram

other said:


> The trick with this machine IMHO is that when it comes to brewing I assume it will do the right thing.
> 
> So if I find it at 0.7 when I want to make my coffee, I assume that this is the correct pressure for the temp I need in my coffee (probably because there's a lot of heat in the group already).
> 
> What I mean is I wouldn't flush before brewing the first shot. I only flush when I want to reduce temperature between shots if I feel it's too high after one shot because the machine has gone into ready-to-steam.


 Your machine is predictable because it doesn't have an issue. I watched your video, and yours performs exactly like mine (lucky us). This thread is about machines that try to do exactly the same but lose pressure before they can complete steaming. From all I have seen them try, it sadly seems very likely that they have some sort of fault.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Have you got agreement to return yours to BB?


 Yes... Although I did initially request an RMA at the beginning of December.


----------



## itguy

I have an approved RMA number from BB, but I am going to wait until the lockdown rules mean I can take my machine there in person. I don't trust UPS with it and to fully insure it would be £78 delivery to BB.

If you want an RMA, just log into the BB site and go to your orders section. You can then select return and you can request an RMA from there.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> I have an approved RMA number from BB, but I am going to wait until the lockdown rules mean I can take my machine there in person. I don't trust UPS with it and to fully insure it would be £78 delivery to BB.
> 
> If you want an RMA, just log into the BB site and go to your orders section. You can then select return and you can request an RMA from there.


 Ok, I thought I needed to get their approval first?

Should they not cover the cost to return it?


----------



## itguy

If / when you raise the RMA on the website it sits 'pending' and then has to be approved by them. By going down this route at least you'll have a reference number that you can call Martin and say 'I've got a ref number XXX, can you approve it please'.

When I asked Martin about the courier costs, he said BB would cover up to £40 and don't book the return courier for you (ie sending from you to BB) but they will reimburse up to that figure when they get the machine. I didn't shop around when I was looking for prices/insurance etc because I'm happy to wait until I can take it there.


----------



## itguy

Update from Lelit themselves to me, following on from my emails to them;

"Your detailed e-mail is important to us: this is how MaraX is intended and works for now but we write down all the suggestions and comments coming from our end customers because these help us to improve the machine performances."

So no suggestions from them for now. I will keep logging every single shot I pull and steam on my MaraX so I can then send them the excel log file in due course when I've got quite a bit more data. This may help them further.

Gives me something to do during lockdown! I have a few more things I want to try too.


----------



## other

Have you tried plugging into the uart serial Port of the MaraX to log sensors, and when the pump is working, PID target temp, etc? Maybe check with them to see if that would void the guarantee first, but might get you and then the definitive data to troubleshoot this.


----------



## itguy

No I haven't but I have thought about it. I am content for now just finding patterns in my daily usage (which is very repeatable) as minor tweaks can be recorded easily.


----------



## itguy

Well, for the first time ever today, I seem to have got my mid-morning drink to steam correctly.

Same usage pattern as always, however this time I have added in a purge of water from the boiler (hot water wand) very slowly just until the boiler auto-fills. I have done this for all 3 drinks today and have stable(ish) steaming for all of them.

I have been measuring how much water I need to purge to get the auto-fill to kick in too, which is variable by the looks of it.

First coffee of the day (machine on and idle from cold for 1hr), I drew out 82ml.

The next one after another 1:35hr I drew out 28ml

and the final one, another 3:40hr after that, I drew out 28ml.

After my last steaming this morning the machine did auto-fill again.

I have now switched it off and I will let it go cold until later this afternoon. I'll be interested to see if it auto-fills when I switch it back on again.. (ie the water volume will have decreased in the boiler). This may go some way to explain why my first coffees of the day are ok - as the boiler may be slightly over filling what it needs, but then by the 3rd it just needs a refill.


----------



## DavecUK

itguy said:


> 1. First coffee of the day (machine on and idle from cold for 1hr), I drew out 82ml.
> 
> The next one after another 1:35hr I drew out 28ml
> 
> and the final one, another 3:40hr after that, I drew out 28ml.
> 
> After my last steaming this morning the machine did auto-fill again.
> 
> I have now switched it off and I will let it go cold until later this afternoon. I'll be interested to see if it auto-fills when I switch it back on again.. (ie the water volume will have decreased in the boiler). This may go some way to explain why my first coffees of the day are ok - as the boiler may be slightly over filling what it needs, but then by the 3rd it just needs a refill.


 Physics explains this....when machine cools overnight, water contracts, water level drops, hence the reason almost all machines do an autofill when switched on in the morning (assuming they are an HX, or a dual boiler where the steam boiler is actively being used).

As the water has contracted, that first fill is when it is cold. The boiler heats up, water expands (say 5 or 6%, to the temp in the boiler), you get an effective overfill of around 70ml, rather than the more normal 30 ml.

It also explains why you get 2 coffees and OK steaming for your old workflow with the 3rd running out of puff due to an autofill.

28ml+28ml = 60ml, with an overfill of at least 70ml first thing in the morning. Those 2 steaming events won't make it autofil....but puts it on the cusp. Another steam and roughly half way through, it's going to autofill. Hence my recommendation to trigger an autofill..by running a small bit of water out of the water wand... Of course once you know your pattern, you now probably only need to do that before the 3rd steam.

This could be coded for by having the autofill overfill a little more...but at some point the potential is there for it to happen. My advice would be when it does happen, close the steam wand or partly close it for a while to let the pressure build again. The disadvantage of an extra overfill is when it does autofill....it cools down the boiler even more. It's all about protecting that heating element in the boiler.

This exact same thing happens to HX machines when they autofill....some of them drop the steam pressure to almost 0 when they do (early R58s, not the one I had so much as the first production units).

P.S. Hence an overfill has to walk a fine line...but I have suggested Lelit look into this as it might help a little....pushing the autofill point for a high % of people to trigger only in the morning. Unless they do lots of lattes.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> Physics explains this....when machine cools overnight, water contracts, water level drops, hence the reason almost all machines do an autofill when switched on in the morning (assuming they are an HX, or a dual boiler where the steam boiler is actively being used).
> 
> As the water has contracted, that first fill is when it is cold. The boiler heats up, water expands (say 5 or 6%, to the temp in the boiler), you get an effective overfill of around 70ml, rather than the more normal 30 ml.
> 
> It also explains why you get 2 coffees and OK steaming for your old workflow with the 3rd running out of puff due to an autofill.
> 
> 28ml+28ml = 60ml, with an overfill of at least 70ml first thing in the morning. Those 2 steaming events won't make it autofil....but puts it on the cusp. Another steam and roughly half way through, it's going to autofill. Hence my recommendation to trigger an autofill..by running a small bit of water out of the water wand... Of course once you know your pattern, you now probably only need to do that before the 3rd steam.
> 
> This could be coded for by having the autofill overfill a little more...but at some point the potential is there for it to happen. My advice would be when it does happen, close the steam wand or partly close it for a while to let the pressure build again. The disadvantage of an extra overfill is when it does autofill....it cools down the boiler even more. It's all about protecting that heating element in the boiler.
> 
> This exact same thing happens to HX machines when they autofill....some of them drop the steam pressure to almost 0 when they do (early R58s, not the one I had so much as the first production units).
> 
> P.S. Hence an overfill has to walk a fine line...but I have suggested Lelit look into this as it might help a little....pushing the autofill point for a high % of people to trigger only in the morning. Unless they do lots of lattes.


 Hi Dave,

My machine behaves slightly differently.

I can pull 2 shots back to back. Then pull just enough water for the autofill. Once that has completed and I start steaming (at 1.5 bar) it still kicks in for another autofill after 20 seconds or so, despite using next to nothing.

I also hear my machine doing autofills, sometimes only 1 minute apart when sitting idle.

The only time this has worked for me was when I did your test. Pull shot, wait 15 minutes, draw just 5 seconds of water, then steam. This was the only time it's maintained pressure and no autofill.


----------



## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> Physics explains this....when machine cools overnight, water contracts, water level drops, hence the reason almost all machines do an autofill when switched on in the morning (assuming they are an HX, or a dual boiler where the steam boiler is actively being used).
> 
> As the water has contracted, that first fill is when it is cold. The boiler heats up, water expands (say 5 or 6%, to the temp in the boiler), you get an effective overfill of around 70ml, rather than the more normal 30 ml.
> 
> It also explains why you get 2 coffees and OK steaming for your old workflow with the 3rd running out of puff due to an autofill.
> 
> 28ml+28ml = 60ml, with an overfill of at least 70ml first thing in the morning. Those 2 steaming events won't make it autofil....but puts it on the cusp. Another steam and roughly half way through, it's going to autofill. Hence my recommendation to trigger an autofill..by running a small bit of water out of the water wand... Of course once you know your pattern, you now probably only need to do that before the 3rd steam.
> 
> This could be coded for by having the autofill overfill a little more...but at some point the potential is there for it to happen. My advice would be when it does happen, close the steam wand or partly close it for a while to let the pressure build again. The disadvantage of an extra overfill is when it does autofill....it cools down the boiler even more. It's all about protecting that heating element in the boiler.
> 
> This exact same thing happens to HX machines when they autofill....some of them drop the steam pressure to almost 0 when they do (early R58s, not the one I had so much as the first production units).
> 
> P.S. Hence an overfill has to walk a fine line...but I have suggested Lelit look into this as it might help a little....pushing the autofill point for a high % of people to trigger only in the morning. Unless they do lots of lattes.


 This is all great Dave. I think my issue very unpredictable however.

I switched the machine on at lunchtime after the morning coffees x2 were ok.

This time, steaming was fine and I decided to empty some water from the wand in small amounts until I got the autofill.

I then pulled the second shot and proceeded to steam but part way through, the power/pressure reduced to 1 and below and eventually, the autofill kicked in too....

My machine is getting packaged up at the weekend for return anyway, but I'm not able to consistently make two drinks back to back - whatever I try.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> I also hear my machine doing autofills, sometimes only 1 minute apart when sitting idle.


 This^^^^^^^

Is that not normal??


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> I also hear my machine doing autofills, sometimes only 1 minute apart when sitting idle.
> 
> This^^^^^^^
> 
> Is that not normal??


 I think this is the pump kicking the thermosyphon to keep the grouphead at the right temperature by keeping the HX water flowing round it. I don't think it is auto-filling the boiler when it does that.

We could do with a couple of LEDs hooked up to the solenoids - one for the boiler fill and another for the HX...


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> I can pull 2 shots back to back. Then pull just enough water for the autofill. Once that has completed and I start steaming (at 1.5 bar) it still kicks in for another autofill after 20 seconds or so, despite using next to nothing.


 I had exactly this scenario yesterday and I don't understand why it would do this either, but one thing is for sure, the auto-fill is trigged by the level probe being exposed, so the water level is obviously going down in the machine pretty rapidly for some reason (or the auto fill doesn't fill with as much as it thinks it did).


----------



## zellleonhart

Sometimes when idle, my machine makes a pump sound and the pump pressure goes up for 3-4 seconds and goes back to zero. Is that an indicator of auto-fill?


----------



## other

zellleonhart said:


> Sometimes when idle, my machine makes a pump sound and the pump pressure goes up for 3-4 seconds and goes back to zero. Is that an indicator of auto-fill?


I think that's the PID pumping water through the e61 group for it to keep its ideal temperature, not water refilling the boiler.


----------



## itguy

Agreed


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

other said:


> zellleonhart said:
> 
> 
> 
> Sometimes when idle, my machine makes a pump sound and the pump pressure goes up for 3-4 seconds and goes back to zero. Is that an indicator of auto-fill?
> 
> 
> 
> I think that's the PID pumping water through the e61 group for it to keep its ideal temperature, not water refilling the boiler.
Click to expand...

 It's not the PID pumping water. PID is an algorithm! It's not pumping through the E61, otherwise you'd see it!

I know you want to help @other - but most of the stuff you've mention so far is rather inaccurate. This will confuse members, not even that, that will give them the wrong information to start with. Like fake news.

What you hear @zellleonhart is the machine dumping the water from the HX / thermosyphon and replenishing with water at room temperature from the tank) in order to keep the brew temperature suitable for brewing and avoid overheating.


----------



## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> What you hear @zellleonhart is the machine dumping the water from the HX / thermosyphon and replenishing with water at room temperature from the tank) in order to keep the brew temperature suitable for brewing and avoid overheating.


 Out of interest, probably a dumb question, but where does it dump it to (and via what valve/method exactly?)


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Out of interest, probably a dumb question, but where does it dump it to (and via what valve/method exactly?)


 My understanding is that it dumps the water into the drip tray via a solenoid valve.

I think Dave mentions in his review.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2020/03/10/lelit-marax-review-in-progress/


----------



## other

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It's not the PID pumping water. PID is an algorithm! It's not pumping through the E61, otherwise you'd see it!
> I know you want to help @other - but most of the stuff you've mention so far is rather inaccurate. This will confuse members, not even that, that will give them the wrong information to start with. Like fake news.
> What you hear @zellleonhart is the machine dumping the water from the HX / thermosyphon and replenishing with water at room temperature from the tank) in order to keep the brew temperature suitable for brewing and avoid overheating.


Thanks@MediumRoastSteam , I appreciate your kind words and your caring message. Glad to see how you care about the users of the forum.

PID is an algorithm that aims to get a measured temp to match a target temp by progressively reducing the delta between both, and using a combination of Proportional + Integrative and Derivative factors to model at what speed the temp will change when the system acts on it. Obviously the algorithm does not pump water, same as a driver does not turn right (the car does) or a barista does not heat milk (the steam from the boiler does it), but as a manner of speaking, without being a native british speaker, I'd dare to say that the algorithm ordering the water pump can be used as subject in the sentence.

On the Mara X temp is measured in the exit of the E61 group and the boiler temp is controlled with a target on the group temp. It's well described here: https://www.home-barista.com/blog/lelit-marax-review-t63863.html

Extract from there: "
What the X does is pretty revolutionary. On espresso machines, even double boilers, the boiler temperature is controlled. But the shot's temperature is mostly determined by the group's temperature, not the boiler's. In the Mara, the steam boiler cycles up and down to keep the group at the target temperature. In E61 machines, the group is heated via a thermosyphon that circulates boiler water through the group. The Mara measures the water flowing out of the group, back to the boiler, and cycles the boiler to keep it steady. The reason this takes high build quality is because the boiler is cycling up to pressures much higher than is usual in steam boilers. At warm up, the boiler pressure can get up to 2.75 bar."

Maybe I was not perfectly accurate but I don't think what I wrote is misleading. In any case, I haven't lost anything here. Just registered to try and share my experience and help others. As you say, I probably failed, so let this be the end of my attempt to help. I'll stick to my usual forums.

Cheers,


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

other said:


> I probably failed, so let this be the end of my attempt to help. I'll stick to my usual forums.


 I apologise it offended you. I just noticed that some of your explanations didn't make much sense. It's often counter-productive when people are trying to diagnose problems, as most of us here - including myself - don't know the machine ins and outs as the manufacturer or retailers etc. People often take the gospel, try to make sense, and get even more confused. 🙂- And I didn't say all of it. There's some good stuff you posted. *I personally like that video you made. It was very helpful for people here to compare a well functioning machine to what they have. *

Anyway, apologies again.


----------



## Doram

A question for @DavecUK: Do you think that the machines here (@itguy, @djrustycans, @MonkeyHarris) have a fault?

I am following their experiments trying to control auto-fill etc., but can't figure out if their steam power loss is part of how the machine works and just requires a change of workflow, or if inducing auto-fill or changing workflow is intended as a workaround to overcome a fault.

If the machines are not faulty, why do I never (touch wood) encounter anything similar whatever I do? Is there a reasonable explanation for this difference in behavior?


----------



## itguy

@Doram interesting question. What is your usual workflow?

I suspect I'd never see the issue with my 3 drinks I make a day if I was making slightly smaller drinks - ie steaming slightly less milk each time. If I can routinely get 2 and a half lots of steaming out of my machine before an auto fill, (of 240ml of milk at a time), that would suggest that if I steamed maybe 180ml of milk each time, I'd comfortably get 3 steaming events done without auto fill.

At that point I'd switch the machine off, it would get cold overnight and then do an auto fill on switch on in the morning and the whole sequence starts again.


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> @Doram interesting question. What is your usual workflow?


 There is a video of it on this thread.

My workflow is standard (I think): I warm the machine (mostly 30-60 mins, but sometimes it was on for hours). I walk up and pull a shot (or two), then rinse the PF, wiggle rinse the group, wash and dry the basket (and for the last shot of the day - do water backflush), then go back and steam.

Most of the time I steam for one shot in a 350ml pitcher, but I have steamed for two in a 600ml pitcher. I also steamed larger quantities in the big pitcher for hot chocolate in a bowl (Acme 380ml cups). Whatever I do, whatever I change in the workflow, machine never auto-fills on me in mid steaming. Never had a pressure drop or anything similar that spoils the milk because of the machine. Looked at the videos from you guys, and my machine never has that issue. I therefore assumed you had a fault, but of course I don't know.


----------



## itguy

Thanks. How many coffees do you tend to make in a day or per warm up cycle of the machine? Have you made more than 3 drinks in one warm up cycle, each with 240ml or more of milk (or should I say more than 3x60seconds of steam)?


----------



## djrustycans

Doram said:


> There is a video of it on this thread.
> 
> My workflow is standard (I think): I warm the machine (mostly 30-60 mins, but sometimes it was on for hours). I walk up and pull a shot (or two), then rinse the PF, wiggle rinse the group, wash and dry the basket (and for the last shot of the day - do water backflush), then go back and steam.
> 
> Most of the time I steam for one shot in a 350ml pitcher, but I have steamed for two in a 600ml pitcher. I also steamed larger quantities in the big pitcher for hot chocolate in a bowl (Acme 380ml cups). Whatever I do, whatever I change in the workflow, machine never auto-fills on me in mid steaming. Never had a pressure drop or anything similar that spoils the milk because of the machine. Looked at the videos from you guys, and my machine never has that issue. I therefore assumed you had a fault, but of course I don't know.


 I would be absolutely 'shocked' if my machine didn't have a fault - there's no way it could be working as intended. It's almost impossible to get it to work without pressure loss - other than after a fresh switch on. I've tried as much of the advice AFAIK and every time I have hope that it's solved, it goes wrong again!

I've currently got serious buyers remorse just because there seemed to be no indication that the Mara X would not be able to make 2 or 3 large lattes!!


----------



## itguy

I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the MaraX has a certain amount of seconds of steaming power after an auto fill, and after that amount of seconds is used up the pressure tails off to just below 1bar and then it auto fills again and kills the steaming.

Now, if my hypothesis is right, this will mean that for some people this will be no issue (2x small cappuccinos per warm up cycle, for example) and for others, it will be a problem. The workaround seems to be a purge of hot water to force an auto fill before steaming if you know you're going to need a load of steam for a large quantity of milk.

I'm not sure I can think of any fixes for this though, other than knowing the machine and using a workaround if required.

To this end I really don't know if my machine has a fault, or if I am just trying to use it in a way that exposes it's weaknesses.

Either way, I suspect I will take it to BB when I can to see what they say.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> I am rapidly coming to the conclusion that the MaraX has a certain amount of seconds of steaming power after an auto fill, and after that amount of seconds is used up the pressure tails off to just below 1bar and then it auto fills again and kills the steaming.
> 
> Now, if my hypothesis is right, this will mean that for some people this will be no issue (2x small cappuccinos per warm up cycle, for example) and for others, it will be a problem. The workaround seems to be a purge of hot water to force an auto fill before steaming if you know you're going to need a load of steam for a large quantity of milk.
> 
> I'm not sure I can think of any fixes for this though, other than knowing the machine and using a workaround if required.
> 
> To this end I really don't know if my machine has a fault, or if I am just trying to use it in a way that exposes it's weaknesses.
> 
> Either way, I suspect I will take it to BB when I can to see what they say.


 If that's the case then it doesn't explain this for me. I did this a short time ago. Only 180ml of milk. 2 shots in succession, perhaps a few minutes in between, then a short flush to induce boiler and kick steam pressure up. It starts ok but just doesn't have the legs to finish. The already weak power really tails off.






Having been able to steam one fine without pressure loss, I now know the difference. Although for me , even that one success was still pretty slow.

In my opinion the auto refill is probably normal but would never occur during steaming as it should never take that long. I can only think the probe or the actual pressure gauge are faulty.

Martin said he has been able to steam 500ml easy in around a minute. Mine would never do that.

I now sort of have agreement to return it but need to understand who is going to cover the cost. Also need the outer box dimensions if you get a chance? Thanks 😊


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> Thanks. How many coffees do you tend to make in a day or per warm up cycle of the machine? Have you made more than 3 drinks in one warm up cycle, each with 240ml or more of milk (or should I say more than 3x60seconds of steam)?


 I usually make two a day. I turn the machine off between morning and afternoon drinks. My lattes are not big - 170ml cups. So no to your questions about 3 drinks and 240ml or more milk.

However, I have watched many videos, read many posts and reviews, tried using the machines in different ways - and I just find it hard to believe that the usage you describe is beyond Mara X's capabilities. You have not opened a shop or making coffee to fill a bath tub. It is an E61 HX with a 1.8l boiler - it just can't be that working properly it can't handle 3 drinks and 240ml of milk. But maybe I am missing something? Hopefully Dave will know more, and eventually you will all solve this with BB.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> I would be absolutely 'shocked' if my machine didn't have a fault - there's no way it could be working as intended. It's almost impossible to get it to work without pressure loss - other than after a fresh switch on. I've tried as much of the advice AFAIK and every time I have hope that it's solved, it goes wrong again!
> 
> I've currently got serious buyers remorse just because there seemed to be no indication that the Mara X would not be able to make 2 or 3 large lattes!!


 Feel absolutely the same. Also feel annoyed that the onus seems to be on the consumer to prove the issue. I've been repeatedly made to feel like an idiot and in the wrong.

I've actually started looking at different machines as I don't know if I want another one now. More than anything due to the lack of support.


----------



## DavecUK

It's difficult to know because the thread wanders about with so many people doing so many things. When I test i do test all sorts of workflow and if there had been serious problems with the test unit I would have picked it up. My test unit boosted well, stayed boosted for a long time, I could steam 200 ml of milk no problem, usually I would steam 180, don't remember problems with larger amounts. I would recommend steaming milk for each shot separately, although I have made 2 and then steamed no problem.

Something is going on, especially that one video where the temperature rise was so slow with the milk, even though the pressure was fine...I really couldn't understand that (it didn't make sense)? Sure you could turn it to HX only mode to make the big gulp lattes, but that sort of defeats the point and I never ever found the need for HX mode.

It has got a nice big boiler, I think it boosts for long enough...so it could well be these are faulty units...I don't really know, *which is why I tried to get people to run a standardised test, but when I look back through the thread, I only see a few and not enough datapoints to come to any conclusions, because people whose machines are fine also need to run the test.*

perhaps someone can make a test thread only where they can put my standardised test with the addition of measuring the amount of water drawn and then put the results just in that thread.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

> 30 minutes ago, MonkeyHarris said:
> 
> If that's the case then it doesn't explain this for me. I did this a short time ago. Only 180ml of milk. 2 shots in succession, perhaps a few minutes in between, then a short flush to induce boiler and kick steam pressure up. It starts ok but just doesn't have the legs to finish. The already weak power really tails off.


 Man... For 180ml of milk... Even my Pavoni at 0.8 bar would steam 3x as fast. It should take like 30 seconds, maximum. I know you have a thermometer... But how does it feel to touch? Are you sure you are not scaling/cooking that milk?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

DavecUK said:


> the temperature rise was so slow with the milk, even though the pressure was fine...I really couldn't understand that (it didn't make sense)?


 Exactly. I don't understand that either. At 1.4bar pressure, or 1.5bar pressure, either there's a blockage somewhere - inside the steam wand, or the steam tap, or the holes.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Man... For 180ml of milk... Even my Pavoni at 0.8 bar would steam 3x as fast. It should take like 30 seconds, maximum. I know you have a thermometer... But how does it feel to touch? Are you sure you are not scaling/cooking that milk?


 100% not scalding it. Thermometer works perfectly. I've been using it for years. I can also tell it's not hot enough by my hands they're quite used to the correct temp now. Once it reaches temp it's just beyond what I can hold. It's not doing that...well not for ages anyway.


----------



## djrustycans

@MonkeyHarris

I'll try and get the box down tonight and send you the measurements! If not tonight, then by the weekend.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> @MonkeyHarris
> 
> I'll try and get the box down tonight and send you the measurements! If not tonight, then by the weekend.


 Thanks very much. Hope it's a fairly common size 🤦‍♂️


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Exactly. I don't understand that either. At 1.4bar pressure, or 1.5bar pressure, either there's a blockage somewhere - inside the steam wand, or the steam tap, or the holes.


 Possibly a pressure leak inside, in between handle and wand?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

In case anyone is wondering about the lag on my thermometer. Here it is with a cup of tea 😁


----------



## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Exactly. I don't understand that either. At 1.4bar pressure, or 1.5bar pressure, either there's a blockage somewhere - inside the steam wand, or the steam tap, or the holes.


 Could it be the no-burn insert inside the steam wand that is causing the problem? I seem to remember on my Expobar Dual Boiler I had a while ago that the no-burn Teflon tube inside the steam wand really slowed down the steaming. Worth taking the tube out to see if it makes a notable difference perhaps?


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> Thanks very much. Hope it's a fairly common size 🤦‍♂️


 I have my box right here - dimensions of the outer box are:

59x41x61cm


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Could it be the no-burn insert inside the steam wand that is causing the problem? I seem to remember on my Expobar Dual Boiler I had a while ago that the no-burn Teflon tube inside the steam wand really slowed down the steaming. Worth taking the tube out to see if it makes a notable difference perhaps?


 It's unlikely, but possible. In fact, the tube inside the Elizabeth / MaraX is a PTFE tube. On my Pro-700 it was silicone. I find the PTFE sleeve actually makes it more powerful: It conserves heat better and it's of a narrower diameter. Providing you have the correct steam tip for the machine, which I believe the Lelit machines have. And, of course, that you don't have a leak on the PTFE inner tube (bad o-o-ring, damaged, etc).


----------



## 2953

MonkeyHarris said:


> 100% not scalding it. Thermometer works perfectly. I've been using it for years. I can also tell it's not hot enough by my hands they're quite used to the correct temp now. Once it reaches temp it's just beyond what I can hold. It's not doing that...well not for ages anyway.


 Can you take a video where we can see the milk?

My Fracino would rapidly lose steam pressure if the tank got empty and would make a similar whine but you'd see the change in milk movement until it just stopped. It does sound like the milk is getting really hot though too.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

petebetros said:


> Can you take a video where we can see the milk?
> 
> My Fracino would rapidly lose steam pressure if the tank got empty and would make a similar whine but you'd see the change in milk movement until it just stopped. It does sound like the milk is getting really hot though too.


 Sure I'll do that tomorrow. I can assure you it's not getting hot. The hissing is just air not steam. When it first happend I thought I'd over cooked it but then I felt the side of the pitcher and it was luke warm.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> I have my box right here - dimensions of the outer box are:
> 
> 59x41x61cm


 thanks very much....Cardboard box hunt begins. Wife actually tried to throw the rest of it out tonight, lol!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Could it be the no-burn insert inside the steam wand that is causing the problem? I seem to remember on my Expobar Dual Boiler I had a while ago that the no-burn Teflon tube inside the steam wand really slowed down the steaming. Worth taking the tube out to see if it makes a notable difference perhaps?


 I guess it's possible but when I purge it seems absolutely fine.If it gets to the point of removing stuff I think I'll let BB do it as I don't want to void my warranty.


----------



## DavecUK

MonkeyHarris said:


> Sure I'll do that tomorrow. I can assure you it's not getting hot. The hissing is just air not steam. When it first happend I thought I'd over cooked it but then I felt the side of the pitcher and it was luke warm.


 That's interesting, it's the only explanation that makes any sense. Had you turned the machine on and warmed it up, then steamed...I'm must review that vid again

I've looked and looked but can't find anywhere you say how many ml of milk you have in the jug?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> That's interesting, it's the only explanation that makes any sense. Had you turned the machine on and warmed it up, then steamed...I'm must review that vid again
> 
> I've looked and looked but can't find anywhere you say how many ml of milk you have in the jug?


 Yes machine always warmed up for 30+ minutes. Usually 45.

Most occasions, I have pulled two shots previously.

My first couple of efforts (on video) were 240ml. The last effort I posted today was 180ml.


----------



## itguy

An update...

I think I have a pattern now.

So today I tried something different in my workflow. I used a smaller milk pitcher and didn't force a boiler autofill etc.

So, from the start of today (all done with heat setting I and coffee/brew priority mode on):

MaraX on at 05:00 from cold, autofilled the boiler on startup (as expected, now @DavecUK explained the water contracting)

07:00 pulled first 18g shot, steamed 130ml milk - milk fine, 1.5bar starting, 1.4bar finish. 34 seconds to get to 64c.

07:30 pulled second 18g shot, steamed 150ml milk - milk fine, 1.6bar starting, 1.5bar finish. 35 seconds to get 64c.

11:00 pulled third 18g shot, split over two cups. Steamed 1x 120ml milk then 1x130ml milk. Both fine, both 1.5bar start, 1.4bar finish. Both took around 34 seconds to get to 65c.

There was no auto-fill event during any of these and the machine felt a lot happier with shorter steaming sessions.

I thought I'd try seeing how much steam was left in the machine until an auto-fill, so opened the wand to see (right after the last milk steaming, approx 11:05), 45 seconds worth, then auto-fill.

So - what I have deduced is that I can make 530ml of milk steaming easily within one (from cold) autofill of the boiler.

I know that from my previous testing 3x240ml is too much as it reliably autofilled on the third steaming (this is 720ml in total).

So, max steaming capacity of the machine is between 530ml and 720ml, from an autofill. My estimate is c.700ml is the limit before an autofill event (based on 130ml taking 34 seconds, therefore 45 seconds spare steaming = 172ml spare). Add this to the 530ml I managed = 702ml.

This would absolutely correlate with my experiences this week. I can nearly get my third 240ml pitcher of milk done but then towards the end of steaming it I get an autofill.

So what have I learnt?

1. There are limits to what the MaraX is capable of when it comes to larger milk steaming. I can trigger an autofill at any time by purging some water from the boiler by the hot water wand and that reliably allows me to steam well.

2. I have been wasting A LOT of milk when making my drinks previously. There in no way I needed to be steaming 240ml of milk for a cappuccino (all we drink) as the 130-150ml I have tried today filled the cups I have got, just right.

3. I am fairly confident (but will keep testing and keep my log running) that my particular MaraX is working as intended and that it has been my workflow/specific milk steaming quantities etc that have been the issue.

Now - I can appreciate that others may well have issues, and your experiences might be different to mine, but if I can reliably use my machine over the next 7 days based on the smaller milk quantities I have posted above, I will not be returning my machine to BB for service.

I hope this is helpful to you all! I have quite enjoyed this week.. in a funny kind of way


----------



## DavecUK

@itguy I think you have hit the nail on the head, in Italy they do use a lot smaller amounts of milk for Lattes and yes even for the UK 240ml of milk for a latte and especially a cappa, is far too much. That's what I term a "big gulp" with a double that's a 280+ml drink (especially as the milk expands during steaming (plus takes on some water).

My old latte cups, which I consider the right size for a double with milk (unless you prefer hot milk to coffee), hold around 210ml max without the risk of overflowing..

160 ml of milk plus the double shot is more than enough to fill one.

There is 3 factors at play here...



The time of the steam boost (can't be too long)


the size of the milk drinks


the workflow of the consumer


It's why dual boiler machines cost more...they can tolerate widely varying workflows and have the independence of steaming and brew temp. MaraX brings you as close as you can get to dual boiler convenience in an advanced HX system...., but it's not a dual boiler.

I have mine back on the counter now with some prototype software I asked them to get coded for me ( last November)....and I forgot what an easy simple machine it is to use. When I opened it up to fit the new control box and some other bits....I again thought how nice the overall engineering/components were with that nice big boiler that made the programming possible. I genuinely believe it represents value for money and HX cleverness but kept simple... that's hard to beat..

So I'm glad you have found the way to work effectively with your machine.

P.S. It only boosts for a certain amount of time, which means it's usually better to make and steam each latte independently. Although you can and I have steamed 320 ml of milk, if you do it's best started at the same time as you start the second shot...then the peak part of the boost remains in play for more than long enough (plus heating elements are still on when you start)!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> An update...
> 
> I think I have a pattern now.
> 
> So today I tried something different in my workflow. I used a smaller milk pitcher and didn't force a boiler autofill etc.
> 
> So, from the start of today (all done with heat setting I and coffee/brew priority mode on):
> 
> MaraX on at 05:00 from cold, autofilled the boiler on startup (as expected, now @DavecUK explained the water contracting)
> 
> 07:00 pulled first 18g shot, steamed 130ml milk - milk fine, 1.5bar starting, 1.4bar finish. 34 seconds to get to 64c.
> 
> 07:30 pulled second 18g shot, steamed 150ml milk - milk fine, 1.6bar starting, 1.5bar finish. 35 seconds to get 64c.
> 
> 11:00 pulled third 18g shot, split over two cups. Steamed 1x 120ml milk then 1x130ml milk. Both fine, both 1.5bar start, 1.4bar finish. Both took around 34 seconds to get to 65c.
> 
> There was no auto-fill event during any of these and the machine felt a lot happier with shorter steaming sessions.
> 
> I thought I'd try seeing how much steam was left in the machine until an auto-fill, so opened the wand to see (right after the last milk steaming, approx 11:05), 45 seconds worth, then auto-fill.
> 
> So - what I have deduced is that I can make 530ml of milk steaming easily within one (from cold) autofill of the boiler.
> 
> I know that from my previous testing 3x240ml is too much as it reliably autofilled on the third steaming (this is 720ml in total).
> 
> So, max steaming capacity of the machine is between 530ml and 720ml, from an autofill. My estimate is c.700ml is the limit before an autofill event (based on 130ml taking 34 seconds, therefore 45 seconds spare steaming = 172ml spare). Add this to the 530ml I managed = 702ml.
> 
> This would absolutely correlate with my experiences this week. I can nearly get my third 240ml pitcher of milk done but then towards the end of steaming it I get an autofill.
> 
> So what have I learnt?
> 
> 1. There are limits to what the MaraX is capable of when it comes to larger milk steaming. I can trigger an autofill at any time by purging some water from the boiler by the hot water wand and that reliably allows me to steam well.
> 
> 2. I have been wasting A LOT of milk when making my drinks previously. There in no way I needed to be steaming 240ml of milk for a cappuccino (all we drink) as the 130-150ml I have tried today filled the cups I have got, just right.
> 
> 3. I am fairly confident (but will keep testing and keep my log running) that my particular MaraX is working as intended and that it has been my workflow/specific milk steaming quantities etc that have been the issue.
> 
> Now - I can appreciate that others may well have issues, and your experiences might be different to mine, but if I can reliably use my machine over the next 7 days based on the smaller milk quantities I have posted above, I will not be returning my machine to BB for service.
> 
> I hope this is helpful to you all! I have quite enjoyed this week.. in a funny kind of way


 Great work.

I'm not convinced I have same issue however.

here's 2x requested clips.

1st one. I pulled 2 shots, waited for pressure to rise and stop around 1.6 bar then opened steam valve (exposed, no milk). I've noticed when my milk heats it rises in intermittent bursts rather than steadily as I am used to. Thus far this scenario has always induced the issue (actually pretty much every scenario has).


----------



## itguy

@MonkeyHarris can you do a video of the steam wand in mid air, not near a towel and at 1.5bar starting pressure?

I will do the same on my machine too as to me, your steam pressure coming out of your wand does not look as strong as mine at the same pressure (suggesting a partial blockage somewhere).


----------



## itguy

Have just looked at the overhead video - that is never 1.5bar of steaming pressure going in to that pitcher.. I'd say that is more like 0.6 or 0.7bar at the steam tip... Mine almost fires the milk out of the pitcher if I am not careful...


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> @MonkeyHarris can you do a video of the steam wand in mid air, not near a towel and at 1.5bar starting pressure?
> 
> I will do the same on my machine too as to me, your steam pressure coming out of your wand does not look as strong as mine at the same pressure (suggesting a partial blockage somewhere).


 I only put the towel there as my wife was stressing about the mess and potential damage to her hand painted kitchen cabinets. I think steam looks intermittent.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Have just looked at the overhead video - that is never 1.5bar of steaming pressure going in to that pitcher.. I'd say that is more like 0.6 or 0.7bar at the steam tip... Mine almost fires the milk out of the pitcher if I am not careful...


 That's what I was used to and expecting. That video is easily the best it has ever performed. Usually not enough to keep milk rolling after 15-20 seconds.


----------



## itguy

Ok - I'll do a video of mine and you can compare. I'll also try to video my milk steaming too from above, so you can see that too.


----------



## itguy

Machine just warming back up - give me 15 mins or so


----------



## MonkeyHarris

I just got some good news. BB have arranged to pick up my machine next week 😃

Response was a bit luke warm at first but I must say that I am really happy with that. I don't have to worry about boxing etc. as this is a door2door.

Hopefully it won't take long to resolve....knowing my luck though it will do what my kids do and behave like an angel in front of others 😂

I'm happy to continue helping anyone else on this thread and comparing notes in the meantime though.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> I just got some good news. BB have arranged to pick up my machine next week 😃
> 
> Response was a bit luke warm at first but I must say that I am really happy with that. I don't have to worry about boxing etc. as this is a door2door.
> 
> Hopefully it won't take long to resolve....knowing my luck though it will do what my kids do and behave like an angel in front of others 😂
> 
> I'm happy to continue helping anyone else on this thread and comparing notes in the meantime though.


 Congrats!! 🙌


----------



## 2953

itguy said:


> Have just looked at the overhead video - that is never 1.5bar of steaming pressure going in to that pitcher.. I'd say that is more like 0.6 or 0.7bar at the steam tip... Mine almost fires the milk out of the pitcher if I am not careful...


 Yes you can see from this nowhere near the pressure it's saying it is. I hold them tip that close to the surface and it expands in seconds.


----------



## itguy

Finally managed to get the videos off my GoPro.

Here you go

Steaming pressure (free air / Pyrex jug) and then steaming 150ml of milk from above with thermometer.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

> 18 minutes ago, itguy said:
> 
> Finally managed to get the videos off my GoPro.
> 
> Here you go
> 
> Steaming pressure (free air / Pyrex jug) and then steaming 150ml of milk from above with thermometer.


 Thanks for that. That confirms mine probably has a different issue to yours or an additional issue.

Your steam pressure is way more powerful. Also constant.

Can't wait to try mine once it's been replaced/repaired.


----------



## DavecUK

@itguy Looks quite normal about 40S to steam the milk.

Just a tip, start steaming a few seconds before the heating elements shut off...


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Update - BB picked up my machine on Monday.

I just heard back that they can't find anything wrong with it... I'm completely baffled. Everyone who has seen the steam performance says it's clearly not right.

I'm hoping they will call me before sending it back. I really need to see evidence of it working.

They have fitted an ECM temp sensor to improve heating response but surely this would only affect group?

One other odd thing. They said all the documentation for MaraX is incorrect and HX mode is position 1. Brew priority is 0.

I had same problem either way though.


----------



## Doram

MonkeyHarris said:


> One other odd thing. They said all the documentation for MaraX is incorrect and HX mode is position 1. Brew priority is 0.


 I am certain the above isn't true, at least on my machine. I just double checked again and my machine is in position 1, which definitely behaves as brew priority as far as I understand it.


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> One other odd thing. They said all the documentation for MaraX is incorrect and HX mode is position 1. Brew priority is 0.


 I was told this too but basically ignored it because it just isn't true. 'coffee mode' or 'brew priority' mode is setting 1 on mine.

Lelit insider on YouTube posted a video up this morning on the MaraX and steaming as he is trying to understand some of the problems people are having. I replied to it, but it might well be worth you trying to contact him somehow with your videos.


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> Update - BB picked up my machine on Monday.
> 
> I just heard back that they can't find anything wrong with it... I'm completely baffled. Everyone who has seen the steam performance says it's clearly not right.
> 
> I'm hoping they will call me before sending it back. I really need to see evidence of it working.


 They should be able to send you a video of it working I'd have thought? Steaming some milk, timing it etc etc. ?

Although BB have a great reputation I do wonder if these new MaraX machines are going to take a bit of time for them to fully understand and also recognise that workflow as well as a fully functioning machine will affect how they perform. In terms of operation it is quite a step on from an HX machine and I am sure BB will have had training from Lelit, but I think Lelit are still learning too, given some of the responses I've had from them directly too.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> They should be able to send you a video of it working I'd have thought? Steaming some milk, timing it etc etc. ?
> 
> Although BB have a great reputation I do wonder if these new MaraX machines are going to take a bit of time for them to fully understand and also recognise that workflow as well as a fully functioning machine will affect how they perform. In terms of operation it is quite a step on from an HX machine and I am sure BB will have had training from Lelit, but I think Lelit are still learning too, given some of the responses I've had from them directly too.


 I'm trying desperately to get hold of them as I want to see it working before they ship back to me


----------



## Ilias

Btw, if you follow lelit insider he made a video today about this.

My machine behaves *exactly* like this... I don't flush before the coffee and still get about 1.4 bars after the shot...


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> I'm trying desperately to get hold of them as I want to see it working before they ship back to me


 Just remind me, was it yours or someone elses that basically looked like the steam wand was partially blocked?


----------



## itguy

> Just now, Ilias said:
> 
> Btw, if you follow lelit insider he made a video today about this.
> 
> My machine behaves *exactly* like this...


 This is the video I was referring to @MonkeyHarris. Mine behaves like this too.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Doram said:


> I am certain the above isn't true, at least on my machine. I just double checked again and my machine is in position 1, which definitely behaves as brew priority as far as I understand it.


 They've told me this repeatedly but as my issue occurs in either mode I didn't worry about it.

quote from them "Switch in position 1 is HX mode"

They say they have contacted Lelit as all their documentation and website is wrong.

I find this all very confusing. Really regret buying this machine ☹


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Just remind me, was it yours or someone elses that basically looked like the steam wand was partially blocked?


 Mine ☹


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> This is the video I was referring to @MonkeyHarris. Mine behaves like this too.


 Yes saw that earlier today. I've shown him some of my videos and he thought I'd left my machine for over 10 minutes after pulling shots to make it behave like that but I hadn't.


----------



## Doram

MonkeyHarris said:


> They've told me this repeatedly but as my issue occurs in either mode I didn't worry about it.
> 
> quote from them "Switch in position 1 is HX mode"
> 
> They say they have contacted Lelit as all their documentation and website is wrong.


 Unfortunately it's not the first (or second) time I have seen BB say something that is blatantly wrong.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> They've told me this repeatedly but as my issue occurs in either mode I didn't worry about it.
> 
> quote from them "Switch in position 1 is HX mode"
> 
> They say they have contacted Lelit as all their documentation and website is wrong.
> 
> I find this all very confusing. Really regret buying this machine ☹


 They said the same thing to me but I know for a fact that mine works as per the documentation - which is switch pushed up is Coffee priority and switch down is Steam priority. Guess they'll find nothing wrong with mine either then!!


----------



## itguy

It's such a shame that we are in lockdown at the moment as I'd be happy to go down there (it's not too far from me) and I would have walked through it all for you @MonkeyHarris if you'd have wanted me to.

They are really helpful but I find they are even better in person there as it is just so much easier to talk these faults through and show them the problems etc. You can also get them to demo a different MaraX and compare etc etc. Such rubbish timing for issues at the moment


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> They said the same thing to me but I know for a fact that mine works as per the documentation - which is switch pushed up is Coffee priority and switch down is Steam priority. Guess they'll find nothing wrong with mine either then!!


 Have you sent yours back yet?


----------



## itguy

I have a hopefully helpful suggestion. When/if you get the machine back and if you still aren't happy with it, is it worth a few of us MaraX owners doing a zoom call together? I feel reasonably comfortable with mine now, but I wonder if a bit of discussion / fault finding together might help somehow?

I suspect others on here might want to help out too?


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Have you sent yours back yet?


 Yes, but UPS failed to collect for 2 days so it only left today....


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> It's such a shame that we are in lockdown at the moment as I'd be happy to go down there (it's not too far from me) and I would have walked through it all for you @MonkeyHarris if you'd have wanted me to.
> 
> They are really helpful but I find they are even better in person there as it is just so much easier to talk these faults through and show them the problems etc. You can also get them to demo a different MaraX and compare etc etc. Such rubbish timing for issues at the moment


 Thanks. It's terrible timing.

They're a 5 hour round trip for me but I'd gladly do that to prove/show the issue.

if it's the same when it comes back then I don't know what I'm going to do next ☹


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> Have you sent yours back yet?


 No - I have modified my workflow now to steam less milk at a time and it is working for me now, and reliably. I logged all of my shots for a week in excel to notice patterns etc and basically figured out how much the MaraX can steam (in milk ml) before the boiler auto fills. It's between 650 and 700ml, and my old workflow saw me trying to steam 720-750ml of milk daily, split over 3 steam sessions. Obviously the last one reliably failed due to autofill. I now do 4x150ml steamings per day and it doesn't auto fill now until the next morning at switch on.

So basically I've learnt it's characteristics and I'm content.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> I have a hopefully helpful suggestion. When/if you get the machine back and if you still aren't happy with it, is it worth a few of us MaraX owners doing a zoom call together? I feel reasonably comfortable with mine now, but I wonder if a bit of discussion / fault finding together might help somehow?
> 
> I suspect others on here might want to help out too?


 Yes would be more than happy to do that


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> No - I have modified my workflow now to steam less milk at a time and it is working for me now, and reliably. I logged all of my shots for a week in excel to notice patterns etc and basically figured out how much the MaraX can steam (in milk ml) before the boiler auto fills. It's between 650 and 700ml, and my old workflow saw me trying to steam 720-750ml of milk daily, split over 3 steam sessions. Obviously the last one reliably failed due to autofill. I now do 4x150ml steamings per day and it doesn't auto fill now until the next morning at switch on.
> 
> So basically I've learnt it's characteristics and I'm content.


 That's great if you're happy with this but I would rather see £1k go down the drain and buy a machine that works!! I'm very worried about the prospect of mine being deemed fine also. How can we even sell it if we believe it's broken??!!


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> No - I have modified my workflow now to steam less milk at a time and it is working for me now, and reliably. I logged all of my shots for a week in excel to notice patterns etc and basically figured out how much the MaraX can steam (in milk ml) before the boiler auto fills. It's between 650 and 700ml, and my old workflow saw me trying to steam 720-750ml of milk daily, split over 3 steam sessions. Obviously the last one reliably failed due to autofill. I now do 4x150ml steamings per day and it doesn't auto fill now until the next morning at switch on.
> 
> So basically I've learnt it's characteristics and I'm content.


 Mine was autofilling and losing pressure even if I'd just let water out of the water wand to kick in the autofill prior to steaming.


----------



## itguy

Well, one thing to bear in mind is that even in the last week there have been others on this forum who have had steaming concerns with their dual boiler machines, basically due to the auto fill cutting in when in the middle of steaming. By design of these prosumer machines it will happen. The MaraX doesn't have a sensor for stopping the auto fill, it has one for starting it (and then it fills by means of a timed amount of pump running time). This means the MaraX has to wait until it needs topping up and then does it, rather than just keeping it between a couple of marks, which would produce more stable steam pressure (top up little and often rather than a big gulp).


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Mine was autofilling and losing pressure even if I'd just let water out of the water wand to kick in the autofill prior to steaming.


 That is interesting as mine does not do that - ergo there must be something up with yours I'd have thought.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Well, one thing to bear in mind is that even in the last week there have been others on this forum who have had steaming concerns with their dual boiler machines, basically due to the auto fill cutting in when in the middle of steaming. By design of these prosumer machines it will happen. The MaraX doesn't have a sensor for stopping the auto fill, it has one for starting it (and then it fills by means of a timed amount of pump running time). This means the MaraX has to wait until it needs topping up and then does it, rather than just keeping it between a couple of marks, which would produce more stable steam pressure (top up little and often rather than a big gulp).


 Any (dual-boiler) machines in particular or just general issues?


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Any (dual-boiler) machines in particular or just general issues?


 From memory I think it was a Profitec Pro 600. It has a 1ltr steam boiler so doesn't have a huge capacity, compared to the Lelit Bianca which has 1.5ltr. That said, the Lelit Elizabeth has 600ml steam boiler and it is very well regarded for steaming too. Go figure!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> From memory I think it was a Profitec Pro 600. It has a 1ltr steam boiler so doesn't have a huge capacity, compared to the Lelit Bianca which has 1.5ltr. That said, the Lelit Elizabeth has 600ml steam boiler and it is very well regarded for steaming too. Go figure!


 My Silvia has a 350ml boiler and wipes the floor with the Marax. Well mine anyway.


----------



## DavecUK

I'm actually investigating myself. I have the current program logic from Lelit. My MaraX is back in service. At the moment I have installed prototype software onto it with completely different functionality on it to the standard. Even so, apparently the BTP should work the same way as on current machines. So I will make more tests tomorrow and compare it with the BTP on the original Gicar which I need to reinstall.

I have a bastardised LCCV which allows me to see a bit more about what's going on and I am hoping will work with the original test machine Gicar box. I have a few objectives in doing this.



Has the programming changed from machine I reviewed (I like to be accurate and definite about this). It's not unknown for the programmers at Gicar to introduce unasked for changes/bugs


If the program is working differently...what's different and what needs to be changed


For the new functinality I wanted on MaraX, is that stil valid, or is there something even cooler that can be done.


Should the autofill overfill be extended/what are the implications.


How do I reflash these boxes, can it be done with the box in situ?


I'm going through the program logic and In a few days I will put back the original Gicar I used for the review and see how that performs. I have to give it some time because I want to be able to make some correct suggestions for the software programming. I can't do it immediately, because all this takes time....a lot of time. I *will* get to the bottom of it though.

This is what's on my machine with the prototype software. LCC has been surgically and sympathetically extended ????










I'm doing this because the reviewed machine (with whatever software was on it) was excellent....well you have all seen the videos.


----------



## itguy

Wow @DavecUK I am very interested in this not to mention excited.

If it would be helpful I could send you my shot-by-shot logging that I have done so you can see how my machine has been behaving. Just pop me a PM.


----------



## itguy

Also, (sorry, I should have said), I'd be happy to help you with this in any way I can, even letting you have the firmware off my machine (no idea how to do that) or test things to try and replicate anything you may want to try on a November 20 built machine.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> My Silvia has a 350ml boiler and wipes the floor with the Marax. Well mine anyway.


 As far as I can see, the issue with your machine intrigues me:

- It stays at ~1.4 bar or thereabouts for ages when steaming, like, 60 seconds if not more;
- Yet, the machine is unable to steam 180ml of cold milk which should take like, 35 seconds if that with that pressure. The videos seen, with a thermometer that works, and is responsive, takes more than 90 seconds to barely get the milk to 60C and a very poor steam? I could've done better with my Gaggia Classic turned off.

How's it possible for the pressure to be there, high, and not be able to steam such a small quantity of milk? In my opinion, there's a blockage somewhere, so the pressure inside the boiler is correct, but the flow is restricted. The owner inspected the tip and there's no blockage. So maybe there's a blockage elsewhere? The fact Bella Barista says there's nothing wrong with his machine doesn't seem quite right.


----------



## DavecUK

I'm going to go through the code logic and do some tests tonight when everything is quiet.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> As far as I can see, the issue with your machine intrigues me:
> 
> - It stays at ~1.4 bar or thereabouts for ages when steaming, like, 60 seconds if not more;
> - Yet, the machine is unable to steam 180ml of cold milk which should take like, 35 seconds if that with that pressure. The videos seen, with a thermometer that works, and is responsive, takes more than 90 seconds to barely get the milk to 60C and a very poor steam? I could've done better with my Gaggia Classic turned off.
> 
> How's it possible for the pressure to be there, high, and not be able to steam such a small quantity of milk? In my opinion, there's a blockage somewhere, so the pressure inside the boiler is correct, but the flow is restricted. The owner inspected the tip and there's no blockage. So maybe there's a blockage elsewhere? The fact Bella Barista says there's nothing wrong with his machine doesn't seem quite right.


 Agreed. I think the pressure drop on mine is a red herring. The issue is the intermittent to non existent flow of steam.

I'm going to call them first thing to see if they can provide any evidence of it now working. I will hit 10+ bar myself if it comes back still faulty.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> I will hit 10+ bar myself if it comes back still faulty.


 😂

Yes, feels like we'll have the opposite issue to our machines!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> I think the pressure drop on mine is a red herring


 I tend to agree. After 80 seconds or so, yeah, I accept that in brew priority mode. Fact is, it should not take more than 40 seconds, on your machine, to stem 180ml of milk.


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> Agreed. I think the pressure drop on mine is a red herring. The issue is the intermittent to non existent flow of steam.
> 
> I'm going to call them first thing to see if they can provide any evidence of it now working. I will hit 10+ bar myself if it comes back still faulty.


 Out of interest, did you ever try removing the steam tip at the end and opening the steam tap on it?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Out of interest, did you ever try removing the steam tip at the end and opening the steam tap on it?


 I did but I didn't try steaming with it off. Just poked with a pin to see if there was an obvious blockage.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> I'm actually investigating myself. I have the current program logic from Lelit. My MaraX is back in service. At the moment I have installed prototype software onto it with completely different functionality on it to the standard. Even so, apparently the BTP should work the same way as on current machines. So I will make more tests tomorrow and compare it with the BTP on the original Gicar which I need to reinstall.
> 
> I have a bastardised LCCV which allows me to see a bit more about what's going on and I am hoping will work with the original test machine Gicar box. I have a few objectives in doing this.
> 
> 
> 
> Has the programming changed from machine I reviewed (I like to be accurate and definite about this). It's not unknown for the programmers at Gicar to introduce unasked for changes/bugs
> 
> 
> If the program is working differently...what's different and what needs to be changed
> 
> 
> For the new functinality I wanted on MaraX, is that stil valid, or is there something even cooler that can be done.
> 
> 
> Should the autofill overfill be extended/what are the implications.
> 
> 
> How do I reflash these boxes, can it be done with the box in situ?
> 
> 
> I'm going through the program logic and In a few days I will put back the original Gicar I used for the review and see how that performs. I have to give it some time because I want to be able to make some correct suggestions for the software programming. I can't do it immediately, because all this takes time....a lot of time. I *will* get to the bottom of it though.
> 
> This is what's on my machine with the prototype software. LCC has been surgically and sympathetically extended ????
> 
> 
> 
> I'm doing this because the reviewed machine (with whatever software was on it) was excellent....well you have all seen the videos.


 Thanks for doing this Dave. It was your great review that sold this machine to me. I expect there have been some revisions and possibly QA issues since. The most confusing is BB telling everyone that brew priority is position 0 and HX mode is 1. They told me all the documentation and Lelit website is incorrect. If you can perhaps try and verify that (on the machine you have atleast) it will definitely help.


----------



## DavecUK

The machine is I have is the original review one..I just replaced the Gicar for one with prototype code for me and the frankenLCC.

So my switch will work as per my review.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

I just had a really long chat with Martin from BB.

He said he tested the hell out of my machine and replicated the 2x shots then steam scenario a few times.

He said every time it steamed milk quickly and without issue. Even 500ml on several attempts. He has taken videos also.

He did say that the temp sensor on mine was out by 1-2 degrees which is why he replaced with an ECM one. Whether this is why it now works or worked for him I guess I won't find out until I get it back.

He said he is 100% certain that HX mode is position 1. He said you can prove this by switching from 0 to 1 and waiting 5 minutes. Steam pressure will then rise to 2-3 bar depending on other setting. Bizarrely he said even though Lelit build the machine they based all their documentation on Dave's review. Dave's machine being an early model may well be wired differently to the current model. Possibly a different guy on the assembly line putting the switches in differently 🤦‍♂️

The only other difference I can think of is the resin filter which I mentioned to him. I have seen another issue where the group pressure was not rising properly during pulling a shot that turned out to be a faulty resin filter. This is part of my machine they did not take so if problem is still there for me I'll try removing it to see if it makes any difference.

My machine will be back tomorrow so hoping I can provide a positive update.


----------



## itguy

Interesting, lets hope it is sorted for you when it comes back.

I wonder how they test the temp sensor (and which one, as it has two), as I'd like to know if it is a faulty batch and if mine is ok or not, given I expect my machine was built at the same time as yours.

Also, I was under the impression that the MaraX doesn't steam boost when in HX mode, and in switch position 1, mine does steam boost. I am going to go and put my machine in position 0 now to see what happens. I have my machine in temp setting 0, so with the 'coffee' switch in position 0, I would expect the boiler pressure to be 0.9 to 1.2bar, and held solid with no steam boost when I pull a shot. Let's see !


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Interesting, lets hope it is sorted for you when it comes back.
> 
> I wonder how they test the temp sensor (and which one, as it has two), as I'd like to know if it is a faulty batch and if mine is ok or not, given I expect my machine was built at the same time as yours.
> 
> Also, I was under the impression that the MaraX doesn't steam boost when in HX mode, and in switch position 1, mine does steam boost. I am going to go and put my machine in position 0 now to see what happens. I have my machine in temp setting 0, so with the 'coffee' switch in position 0, I would expect the boiler pressure to be 0.9 to 1.2bar, and held solid with no steam boost when I pull a shot. Let's see !


 If yours doesn't work like that maybe you could mention it to him.

He said he is a million percent sure - his actual words 😁


----------



## itguy

Ok - well my machine works the same as this video - which is done by someone who works at Lelit!

I've just tested it now and when in position '0' the LED does not flash when changing temperatures. When in position '1' it does.

X mode is obviously brew temp priority mode (or coffee mode)


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> I just had a really long chat with Martin from BB.
> 
> He said he tested the hell out of my machine and replicated the 2x shots then steam scenario a few times.
> 
> He said every time it steamed milk quickly and without issue. Even 500ml on several attempts. He has taken videos also.
> 
> He did say that the temp sensor on mine was out by 1-2 degrees which is why he replaced with an ECM one. Whether this is why it now works or worked for him I guess I won't find out until I get it back.
> 
> He said he is 100% certain that HX mode is position 1. He said you can prove this by switching from 0 to 1 and waiting 5 minutes. Steam pressure will then rise to 2-3 bar depending on other setting. Bizarrely he said even though Lelit build the machine they based all their documentation on Dave's review. Dave's machine being an early model may well be wired differently to the current model. Possibly a different guy on the assembly line putting the switches in differently 🤦‍♂️
> 
> The only other difference I can think of is the resin filter which I mentioned to him. I have seen another issue where the group pressure was not rising properly during pulling a shot that turned out to be a faulty resin filter. This is part of my machine they did not take so if problem is still there for me I'll try removing it to see if it makes any difference.
> 
> My machine will be back tomorrow so hoping I can provide a positive update.


 Wow.. Great update! Hopefully your problems have been solved.

I'm wondering if there's some wires crossed(!) over what position 0 and 1 is?

Something Martin mentioned about switches made me think.

My machine 100% is in X/BTP/Coffee mode when 1 is pushed in (switch up) because you get the steam boost. With switch down, the steam pressure stays pretty fixed when idle and varies depending upon which heat setting you have engaged under the drip tray (0, I, II).

I'm not sure how this can be confused unless some machines have been wired one way and some another?!!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Does steam priority mode not change the temp also?


----------



## djrustycans

> 7 minutes ago, itguy said:
> 
> Ok - well my machine works the same as this video - which is done by someone who works at Lelit!
> 
> I've just tested it now and when in position '0' the LED does not flash when changing temperatures. When in position '1' it does.
> 
> X mode is obviously brew temp priority mode (or coffee mode)


 Can't test for the lights as my machine is in Northants! Mine definitely worked as in the video in terms of mode.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Wow.. Great update! Hopefully your problems have been solved.
> 
> I'm wondering if there's some wires crossed(!) over what position 0 and 1 is?
> 
> Something Martin mentioned about switches made me think.
> 
> My machine 100% is in X/BTP/Coffee mode when 1 is pushed in (switch up) because you get the steam boost. With switch down, the steam pressure stays pretty fixed when idle and varies depending upon which heat setting you have engaged under the drip tray (0, I, II).
> 
> I'm not sure how this can be confused unless some machines have been wired one way and some another?!!


 I think you guys need to speak to him about this also. Mine clearly seemed to steam boost in position 1


----------



## itguy

I'll email him with a link to this video and see what he says...


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> I'll email him with a link to this video and see what he says...


 Now worried that he's potentially just tested mine in HX mode 😳


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Now worried that he's potentially just tested mine in HX mode 😳


 Hmmm. I think he's blatantly wrong. Slightly worrying!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Hmmm. I think he's blatantly wrong. Slightly worrying!


 Yes. Hopefully you can get to the bottom of it. I have no way of testing the group head temp to prove disprove.


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> Does steam priority mode not change the temp also?


 Not that I am aware of, although I just haven't really used that mode at all.


----------



## itguy

Have emailed him with the video asking for advice / to let him know.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Not that I am aware of, although I just haven't really used that mode at all.


 The selector switch under drip tray affects coffee temperature in 'X' mode and steam pressure in 'HX' mode..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> Yes. Hopefully you can get to the bottom of it. I have no way of testing the group head temp to prove disprove.


 I thought it's a simple test? If the pressure fluctuates whilst idling or making a shot - i.e.: Steam Boost, going to 0.5bar while idle, etc, that's in *Brew Priority Mode. *If it stays put around 1, 1.2 or 1.5 bar (depending on the temperature setting) then it's in *Steam Priority Mode *(i.e.: normal HX machine, no cleverness, no steam boost, no temp management).


----------



## itguy

Yep, when I put my MaraX in steam mode (position 0) and I change the temperature switch, the machine will sit at the pre-set boiler pressures solidly as per the manual.


----------



## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I thought it's a simple test? If the pressure fluctuates whilst idling or making a shot - i.e.: Steam Boost, going to 0.5bar while idle, etc, that's in *Brew Priority Mode. *If it stays put around 1, 1.2 or 1.5 bar (depending on the temperature setting) then it's in *Steam Priority Mode *(i.e.: normal HX machine, no cleverness, no steam boost, no temp management).


 That's how mine works, with position 1 being brew priority mode and 0 steam priority mode


----------



## djrustycans

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I thought it's a simple test? If the pressure fluctuates whilst idling or making a shot - i.e.: Steam Boost, going to 0.5bar while idle, etc, that's in *Brew Priority Mode. *If it stays put around 1, 1.2 or 1.5 bar (depending on the temperature setting) then it's in *Steam Priority Mode *(i.e.: normal HX machine, no cleverness, no steam boost, no temp management).


 Exactly



itguy said:


> That's how mine works, with position 1 being brew priority mode and 0 steam priority mode


 Yup!


----------



## djrustycans

Martin said every Mara X they've 'ever' seen has been the opposite to the manual and Dave's review..


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Yep, when I put my MaraX in steam mode (position 0) and I change the temperature switch, the machine will sit at the pre-set boiler pressures solidly as per the manual.


 Well, maybe BB received a batch of machines made on a Friday afternoon? 🤣


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

djrustycans said:


> Martin said every Mara X they've 'ever' seen has been the opposite to the manual and Dave's review..


 They are sponsoring this forum. I hope they are keeping an eye on this thread! It's not looking good! 😂🍭🍿


----------



## djrustycans

I think perhaps what Martin means is that generally speaking, a switch is pushed down to turn 'on' which maybe adhering to certain conventions means that X/Coffee mode is 0. I think this is where the confusion is coming from. He's possibly viewing it as coffee priority mode on/off rather than 2 modes (0/1)

Pretty sure Martin knows which operating mode is which 😂

My boiler works as per Mara X in that 1 in up position is on and 0 in down position is off.


----------



## 2953

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I thought it's a simple test? If the pressure fluctuates whilst idling or making a shot - i.e.: Steam Boost, going to 0.5bar while idle, etc, that's in *Brew Priority Mode. *If it stays put around 1, 1.2 or 1.5 bar (depending on the temperature setting) then it's in *Steam Priority Mode *(i.e.: normal HX machine, no cleverness, no steam boost, no temp management).


 Yes it is. Mine works as the documentation and videos show. 1 is brew mode and 0 is steam.

Just checked again and the fact I pulled the lever in steam priority mode and the water that came out was scalding confirmed it for me


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

djrustycans said:


> I think perhaps what Martin means is that generally speaking, a switch is pushed down to turn 'on' which maybe adhering to certain conventions means that X/Coffee mode is 0. I think this is where the confusion is coming from. He's possibly viewing it as coffee priority mode on/off rather than 2 modes (0/1)
> 
> Pretty sure Martin knows which operating mode is which 😂
> 
> My boiler works as per Mara X in that 1 in up position is on and 0 in down position is off.


 This ^^^. I was wondering the same. I don't own a MaraX, but have watched Dave's reviews and @Doram's mod thread so many times that I know the machine a little bit . Unfortunately I couldn't assert that, but last night I was trying to scour the internet in order to get pictures of the switch! 🤣 - unsuccessfully obviously! 😂


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> I think perhaps what Martin means is that generally speaking, a switch is pushed down to turn 'on' which maybe adhering to certain conventions means that X/Coffee mode is 0. I think this is where the confusion is coming from. He's possibly viewing it as coffee priority mode on/off rather than 2 modes (0/1)
> 
> Pretty sure Martin knows which operating mode is which 😂
> 
> My boiler works as per Mara X in that 1 in up position is on and 0 in down position is off.


 He specifically said position 1 and position 0 to me. He then said everything on the internet was incorrect including Dave's video and Lelit's website.

Hope this can be straightened out with him because if he believes the machine functions differently to us then we'll never get this resolved.

i have a horrible feeling he has potentially only tested mine in HX mode and it still doesn't work in brew priority mode.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> He specifically said position 1 and position 0 to me. He then said everything on the internet was incorrect including Dave's video and Lelit's website.
> 
> Hope this can be straightened out with him because if he believes the machine functions differently to us then we'll never get this resolved.
> 
> i have a horrible feeling he has potentially only tested mine in HX mode and it still doesn't work in brew priority mode.


 Ok, I just remember he said something to me about switch conventions and it got me thinking...!


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> This ^^^. I was wondering the same. I don't own a MaraX, but have watched Dave's reviews and @Doram's mod thread so many times that I know the machine a little bit . Unfortunately I couldn't assert that, but last night I was trying to scour the internet in order to get pictures of the switch! 🤣 - unsuccessfully obviously! 😂


 I wouldn't say there is much room for confusion regarding the position of this switch: 😉


----------



## djrustycans

Doram said:


> I wouldn't say there is much room for confusion regarding the position of this switch: 😉
> View attachment 51199


 Completely agree! However, the confusion has crept in somehow.. It could be construed that the switch in the picture is 'off' and that could mean 'coffee priority' switch off!


----------



## itguy

I have emailed Martin with a copy of that picture and a narrative around it explaining that when we say '1' on, we mean this in the picture (coffee mode) and 0, 'off' HX/Steam mode - to see if he concurs.

I have had a helpful email back from Martin explaining how he tests the modes, which i have done on my machine and mine operates in the opposite way to how he suggests. I've emailed him back!

We'll get to the bottom of this I am sure.


----------



## Doram

djrustycans said:


> Completely agree! However, the confusion has crept in somehow.. It could be construed that the switch in the picture is 'off' and that could mean 'coffee priority' switch off!


 Maybe. But you can expect that one might stop and think again if their interpretation of this leads them to the conclusion that the manufacturer, all the documentation, previous expert reviews, every website and a large number of owners are all getting it wrong...


----------



## itguy

From email conversation with Martin, he knows which way the switch works (and I quote) : Hi Will yes press 1 is on 0 is off...


----------



## itguy

From my diagnostics via email with him, he thinks my steam temperature sensor is faulty too and would like to see my machine to inspect/test. Maybe a faulty batch ?


----------



## itguy

Right, decision made. Machine being collected by UPS tomorrow and arriving at BB on Monday.

Let's see what he finds with mine then....


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Right, decision made. Machine being collected by UPS tomorrow and arriving at BB on Monday.
> 
> Let's see what he finds with mine then....


 Good decision. It'll always bug otherwise.


----------



## itguy

Yes I figured that, and I also thought strike while the iron is hot, so to speak, as he will have all of the Lelit people, techs, machines etc all at the forefront of his mind.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Right, decision made. Machine being collected by UPS tomorrow and arriving at BB on Monday.
> 
> Let's see what he finds with mine then....


 Martin thinks I might have the same issue as you (faulty temp sensor) - he sent me a quote from a response to you regarding the switches and sensors etc.. Will find out more tomorrow!


----------



## itguy

It does sound like a potential batch issue then... let's see what he finds from seeing all three of our machines


----------



## bigsav

Have been considering a Mara X and this thread has been both fascinating and terrifying at the same time!

Currently running a Europiccola (which I love) but need something more consistent and we're planning a new kitchen extension so hoping to upgrade.

Had settled my mind on the Mara X (my heart is really on a Londinium but that's not an actual option!) but I'm enjoying following the developments here.

Also wondering about the Crem One 2b H/X because I'm tempted to plumb everything in to water mains.

Hoping you guys get these steam issues resolved quickly.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> It does sound like a potential batch issue then... let's see what he finds from seeing all three of our machines


 Who'd have thought we'd get all this excitement out of an espresso machine...

On another note, Dave's review suggested the steam freaks might want a different steam tip with the Mara X as it's potentially restrictive - anyone thought about the Bianca one with 4 holes? Or, I saw a single hole tip recommended somewhere..


----------



## djrustycans

bigsav said:


> Have been considering a Mara X and this thread has been both fascinating and terrifying at the same time!
> 
> Currently running a Europiccola (which I love) but need something more consistent and we're planning a new kitchen extension so hoping to upgrade.
> 
> Had settled my mind on the Mara X (my heart is really on a Londinium but that's not an actual option!) but I'm enjoying following the developments here.
> 
> Also wondering about the Crem One 2b H/X because I'm tempted to plumb everything in to water mains.
> 
> Hoping you guys get these steam issues resolved quickly.


 I'm sure this would be a great machine for you if it's working as intended! Will keep you posted.


----------



## 2953

djrustycans said:


> Who'd have thought we'd get all this excitement out of an espresso machine...
> 
> On another note, Dave's review suggested the steam freaks might want a different steam tip with the Mara X as it's potentially restrictive - anyone thought about the Bianca one with 4 holes? Or, I saw a single hole tip recommended somewhere..


 Stock tip is fine for me. Not felt the need for something else unlike previous machines.


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Who'd have thought we'd get all this excitement out of an espresso machine...
> 
> On another note, Dave's review suggested the steam freaks might want a different steam tip with the Mara X as it's potentially restrictive - anyone thought about the Bianca one with 4 holes? Or, I saw a single hole tip recommended somewhere..


 The latest Lelit insider video has him using his own MaraX with a bianca 4 hole on it. He makes steaming look so easy. Just sets the jug down, wand in and it does it itself!!


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> The latest Lelit insider video has him using his own MaraX with a bianca 4 hole on it. He makes steaming look so easy. Just sets the jug down, wand in and it does it itself!!


 I know - I've had shocking results doing it the lazy way! That might be where I saw the bianca tip being used.


----------



## djrustycans

petebetros said:


> Stock tip is fine for me. Not felt the need for something else unlike previous machines.


 Which machines were they if you don't mind?

Can't help but wonder if I'd have more success with a different tip as all I do is larger milk based drinks (375 ml).


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Who'd have thought we'd get all this excitement out of an espresso machine...


 I know... when I started this post I thought I'd get quick answer and be on my way. Did not envisage this 😂


----------



## DavecUK

I tried a tip with larger holes, was not as good


----------



## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> I tried a tip with larger holes, was not as good


 Maybe more holes but smaller might work then - might try the Bianca one, how did you find this Dave?


----------



## DavecUK

djrustycans said:


> Maybe more holes but smaller might work then - might try the Bianca one, how did you find this Dave?


 Don't think I tried but my Bianca is a prototype pre-production, so it may not have the same steam tip. I still need to upgrade it to current production software and make a wiring change.

I only purchased it, so it wouldn't be sold on...don't really use it, just for my collection.


----------



## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> Don't think I tried but my Bianca is a prototype pre-production, so it may not have the same steam tip. I still need to upgrade it to current production software and make a wiring change.
> 
> I only purchased it, so it wouldn't be sold on...don't really use it, just for my collection.


 Thanks Dave.


----------



## Ilias

bigsav said:


> Have been considering a Mara X and this thread has been both fascinating and terrifying at the same time!


 Keep in mind that this thread is for the specific problem that some people have. There are hundreds of happy MaraX owners who are silent . So there is some bias 😛

I am a *very* happy MaraX ownwer... And I do a lot of milk drinks (and espressos)...


----------



## 2953

djrustycans said:


> Which machines were they if you don't mind?
> 
> Can't help but wonder if I'd have more success with a different tip as all I do is larger milk based drinks (375 ml).


 I upgraded the tips on both my Gaggia Classic and Fracino Piccino. Stock on the MaraX is fine for me but I only do 150ml or so a time although on the occasions I do a big boy hot chocolate it doesn't take much longer.


----------



## djrustycans

Soooo...

Looks like it was a faulty temperature sensor on my Mara X. Apparently it wasn't getting hot enough and reading incorrectly.

It's been replaced with an ECM sensor. Just had this info sent through on the service report.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

djrustycans said:


> Soooo...
> 
> Looks like it was a faulty temperature sensor on my Mara X. Apparently it wasn't getting hot enough and reading incorrectly.
> 
> It's been replaced with an ECM sensor. Just had this info sent through on the service report.


 Interesting... Same as @MonkeyHarris

I was also under the impression that the MaraX used some sort of combined level probe and temp sensor. Maybe ECM uses the same?


----------



## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Interesting... Same as @MonkeyHarris
> 
> I was also under the impression that the MaraX used some sort of combined level probe and temp sensor. Maybe ECM uses the same?


 Mine doesn't - which is different to @DavecUK's model, which did (and shows it in the videos). Mine has a two separate devices in the top - level probe and then a separate steam temp sensor


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Soooo...
> 
> Looks like it was a faulty temperature sensor on my Mara X. Apparently it wasn't getting hot enough and reading incorrectly.
> 
> It's been replaced with an ECM sensor. Just had this info sent through on the service report.


 Very interesting - so that is two out of three of the returns that have had a steam temp sensor replaced so far... Will be very interesting to see what is said about mine on Monday....


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Mine doesn't - which is different to @DavecUK's model, which did (and shows it in the videos). Mine has a two separate devices in the top - level probe and then a separate steam temp sensor


 Ah! Good to know. I was referring back to the pictures on on Dave's reviews and that was the case. They obviously changed the design then?

The Elizabeth has the temp prop/fill sensor combined.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Very interesting - so that is two out of three of the returns that have had a steam temp sensor replaced so far... Will be very interesting to see what is said about mine on Monday....


 Place your bets. Quick! 😂🤣


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Very interesting - so that is two out of three of the returns that have had a steam temp sensor replaced so far... Will be very interesting to see what is said about mine on Monday....


 I'm ordering the popcorn now!! 🍿


----------



## itguy

This really is intriguing now...

So have Lelit changed the design of the top of the boiler then - from an early model where there is the combined level probe and steam temp sensor (ie 1 hole) to 2 holes, one for each?

I wonder if those with great steaming have the combined sensor and those with problems have the two separate ones?

That is now making me wonder if the level probe is a different length too ?!

@Doram - does yours have a combined level probe and temp sensor?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> This really is intriguing now...
> 
> So have Lelit changed the design of the top of the boiler then - from an early model where there is the combined level probe and steam temp sensor (ie 1 hole) to 2 holes, one for each?
> 
> I wonder if those with great steaming have the combined sensor and those with problems have the two separate ones?
> 
> That is now making me wonder if the level probe is a different length too ?!
> 
> @Doram - does yours have a combined level probe and temp sensor?


 Just to add more to it, my Elizabeth was made 30 June 2020. The Steam Boiler has one of those combined probes, and the brew boiler has one too, albeit without the level fill sensor terminal being connected or enabled. Interesting hey....


----------



## itguy

I'm off to scour the internet for naked pictures of the MaraX now... Although searching that term might not bring back expected results, given the origins of the machine name!!


----------



## DavecUK

Machines have minor specification changes all the time. Often when I review something, I get either very early production, or sometimes some of the first few models.


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> @Doram - does yours have a combined level probe and temp sensor?


 From memory, I think mine looks like @DavecUK's (pictured below from his video tour. I didn't take a pic of mine, but I did go over the parts and don't think I noticed any changes from what I have seen in the review).

What does yours look like? What makes you think they have added a hole and a probe?


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> @Doram - does yours have a combined level probe and temp sensor?


 Of course I couldn't resist opening my machine to check. Turns out it looks a bit different from @DavecUK's:


----------



## DavecUK

They just used an existing hole that was filling with a blanking bolt on mine. you still have the same temp sensor and combined probe.

They might have put them separate to reduce the limescale formation and issues caused


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Soooo...
> 
> Looks like it was a faulty temperature sensor on my Mara X. Apparently it wasn't getting hot enough and reading incorrectly.
> 
> It's been replaced with an ECM sensor. Just had this info sent through on the service report.


 Still waiting for delivery of mine but fingers crossed that's the end of it. Martin said the ECM sensor is far superior to the stock one - more sensitive and accurate.


----------



## itguy

What does look interesting though is that @Doramhas them separate, but that the temp sensor is actually the combined sensor too - so two level probes, but one not connected (the one with the temp sensor in). Mine is NOT like this. Mine has a temp sensor that doesn't have a level probe attached, it is just a temp sensor.

I wonder if when they started doing that (ie the difference between @Doram and mine, if that is where the new temp sensors aren't up to the job / faulty / not the right spec ?!

Who knows.... I am assuming that Martin at Bella Barista has some kind of diagnostic machine to be able to get stats out of the MaraX so he can test these things ?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> What does look interesting though is that @Doramhas them separate, but that the temp sensor is actually the combined sensor too - so two level probes, but one not connected (the one with the temp sensor in). Mine is NOT like this. Mine has a temp sensor that doesn't have a level probe attached, it is just a temp sensor.
> 
> I wonder if when they started doing that (ie the difference between @Doram and mine, if that is where the new temp sensors aren't up to the job / faulty / not the right spec ?!
> 
> Who knows.... I am assuming that Martin at Bella Barista has some kind of diagnostic machine to be able to get stats out of the MaraX so he can test these things ?


 He does. Mine was a couple of degrees lower than the other 2 he had on his bench for comparison.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Still waiting for delivery of mine but fingers crossed that's the end of it. Martin said the ECM sensor is far superior to the stock one - more sensitive and accurate.


 Good news (hopefully!). Can't wait to get it back. I might stop reading this thread for fear of you bearing bad news 😆


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Good news (hopefully!). Can't wait to get it back. I might stop reading this thread for fear of you bearing bad news 😆


 I don't want to have a bad weekend so tempted not to test it until Monday 🤣


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@Doram - what's this??









Have they left a spanner there or something???


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> I don't want to have a bad weekend so tempted not to test it until Monday 🤣


 how can you have a good weekend without coffee? 😉


----------



## DavecUK

@MediumRoastSteamIt holds the boiler in place when companies like UPS etc.. transport machines


----------



## itguy

Ok, have had a good scour round. Basically there is a mix of combined like @DavecUK, seperate but using the 'double' sensor, and then I have found no photos of what my actual machine has (it's boxed up now and being collected in 30mins, so not unboxing to take a photo!), however the temp sensor looks like the one in the Mara (not X) that @DavecUK reviewed - brass fitting.



























And mine is like this:









Maybe the 'brass' type of probe isn't sensitive enough for the MaraX ? Who knows....

@MonkeyHarris I have everything crossed for you!! Keep us posted


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Have they left a spanner there or something???


 haha, I see you have a lot of faith in Lelit surgeons, lol. As Dave said, it's connecting the boiler to the back panel (and so makes it a little harder to remove the back) - see below.

I remember someone saying newer machines don't have that anymore. I am finding it fascinating that Lelit is still making tweaks after the machine has been released. I didn't think this is how it works. We live and learn...


----------



## zellleonhart

Doram said:


> I remember someone saying newer machines don't have that anymore. I am finding it fascinating that Lelit is still making tweaks after the machine has been released. I didn't think this is how it works. We live and learn...


 Yes it was me, my Mara X is October 2020 production and it doesn't have the bracket/connector. However I notice it's not really affecting the rigidity or stability of the machine, because the back panel is already secured on the bottom but 2 hex bolts and on top by 2 screws (connected to the top plate).


----------



## Doram

zellleonhart said:


> However I notice it's not really affecting the rigidity or stability of the machine, because the back panel is already secured on the bottom but 2 hex bolts and on top by 2 screws


 I think that it is meant to support the boiler, not the back panel (Dave explained it's for shipping). However, if they got rid of it, presumably (hopefully) they decided it isn't necessary, or replaced it with something else.


----------



## itguy

My 09/20 build has the 'spanner' fitted, so it must have only just changed in production to yours @zellleonhart


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> how can you have a good weekend without coffee? 😉


 I only drink espresso...it's the wife who drinks lattes 😂

Problem is I convinced her I needed to upgrade so I could make her lattes easier....so far it looks like £1k not well spent to her.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MonkeyHarris said:


> I only drink espresso...it's the wife who drinks lattes 😂
> 
> Problem is I convinced her I needed to upgrade so I could make her lattes easier....so far it looks like £1k not well spent to her.


 Well mine is back and warming up now

It was pretty grubby and had some loose nuts so bare that in mind when you rig them up again. Steam wand was very loose.

It's come back in what we have so far perceived as HX mode and Martin as Brew mode. I'm going to give it a whirl as is first then try the other mode later' 🤞


----------



## itguy

Well at least it is back now.

I seem to remember when I spoke to Martin he said that they have to decontaminate machines on the way in to the workshop and the way out, so i wonder if the grubbiness is whatever they've used to clean it for COVID security ?

So did it come back with the switch in '1' or '0' mode ?! (0 at a guess?)

Mine has just been collected by UPS 🤞


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Well at least it is back now.
> 
> I seem to remember when I spoke to Martin he said that they have to decontaminate machines on the way in to the workshop and the way out, so i wonder if the grubbiness is whatever they've used to clean it for COVID security ?
> 
> So did it come back with the switch in '1' or '0' mode ?! (0 at a guess?)
> 
> Mine has just been collected by UPS 🤞


 It came back in mode O

It looked like it had made quite a few drinks - lol! Not bothered though, 10 minutes with a microfibre cloth and looking nice and shiny again.

Anyway....

Preliminary results as follows...

In mode O it worked perfectly. Lovely silky microfoam in under a minute. It didn't stop and start as it did previously, temp rose consistently. I went straight in with 240ml. Steam is not as strong as my old machine but I like it as it is easier to control. Perhaps because it's two holes rather than one.

In this mode steam temp seems to settle on just above 1 bar. Not 1.5 I used to get in the other mode.

I pulled 2 shots and there was a steam boost immediately afterwards but it then settled just above 1 bar both times.

Maybe it's because I didn't need to steam as long but steam pressure didn't move throughout steaming and no boiler refill.

For me this is a huge relief as I now at least know that mode works and there is no blockage.

I am going to try mode 1 in a couple of hours once machine has cooled down again. I want to try it from scratch.


----------



## itguy

Thanks for the update. Did you do a flush before brewing and if not, how did the shots taste? Just wondered if there are any clues as to if this is actually brew mode you are in or HX mode...


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Thanks for the update. Did you do a flush before brewing and if not, how did the shots taste? Just wondered if there are any clues as to if this is actually brew mode you are in or HX mode...


 I didn't do a flush and tbh it tasted a bit over extracted but this is a new bag since it went away. It did seem hotter than normal. It's in position 1 in the drip tray as I normally have it.

I really hope it works in the other mode as I then have the option to revert back to that as it was working very well for espresso.


----------



## itguy

So sorry to be a bit stupid, you've got the three way switch behind the drip tray in setting 1 (rocked left) and the two-way switch (right hand side) on 0 ?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> So sorry to be a bit stupid, you've got the three way switch behind the drip tray in setting 1 (rocked left) and the two-way switch (right hand side) on 0 ?


 Correct


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> I didn't do a flush and tbh it tasted a bit over extracted but this is a new bag since it went away. It did seem hotter than normal. It's in position 1 in the drip tray as I normally have it.
> 
> I really hope it works in the other mode as I then have the option to revert back to that as it was working very well for espresso.


 Pretty sure from what you're saying that you are in HX mode (0).. If you switch the 3 way switch under drip tray to 'II', I wouldn't mind betting you'll see the steam pressure rise a bit to 1.5 ish?

Confused again 🤔


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Pretty sure from what you're saying that you are in HX mode (0).. If you switch the 3 way switch under drip tray to 'II', I wouldn't mind betting you'll see the steam pressure rise a bit to 1.5 ish?
> 
> Confused again 🤔


 Yes I expect so.

Tomorrow I'll try position 1 which is mainly what I was trying the whole time previously.

I decided to at least try it this way as Martin was absolutely insistent that mode O is brew mode.

Unfortunately I can't handle so much caffeine so going to take me a day or so to give a reasonable test.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Unfortunately I can't handle so much caffeine so going to take me a day or so to give a reasonable test.


 Lightweight 😜


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Lightweight 😜


 I drank a lot of tea waiting for it to turn up 🤣


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> I drank a lot of tea waiting for it to turn up 🤣


 Probably better than the French press I've been using with pre-ground coffee 🤮


----------



## 2953

itguy said:


> Thanks for the update. Did you do a flush before brewing and if not, how did the shots taste? Just wondered if there are any clues as to if this is actually brew mode you are in or HX mode...


 Said there was a stream boost straight after the shot so that would be brew mode no?

In that mode switch machine on. Goes up to 2 or even 3 bar then drops down to 0.5 after 25 minutes. Make shot and pressure straight away starts to go up to about 1.25 to 1.5. it stays there for a while then starts to drop again.

Stream mode pressure starts at 1.2 to 1.6 constant.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Well, my machine appears to be fixed 😁

Tried this morning in mode 1. Pulled 2 shots, then foamed 240ml of milk in probably around 30 seconds. Exactly the same workflow as before and same settings. Just works now. Completely effortless, as it should be.

I'm still a bit baffled about a couple of things....

Martin said my machine was working fine but replaced the temp sensor with an ECM one as the existing one was out by a couple of degrees. This must be the fix as mine never worked previously and now seems to work perfectly.

Still not sure about what mode is what but they both work so will continue to do my own tests and follow this thread 😊


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> Well, my machine appears to be fixed 😁
> 
> Tried this morning in mode 1. Pulled 2 shots, then foamed 240ml of milk in probably around 30 seconds. Exactly the same workflow as before and same settings. Just works now. Completely effortless, as it should be.
> 
> I'm still a bit baffled about a couple of things....
> 
> Martin said my machine was working fine but replaced the temp sensor with an ECM one as the existing one was out by a couple of degrees. This must be the fix as mine never worked previously and now seems to work perfectly.
> 
> Still not sure about what mode is what but they both work so will continue to do my own tests and follow this thread 😊


 Well... in my world, if the machine is working perfectly fine you don't go and replace a part, do you? So yeah, maybe he means "machine was releasing steam. I saw your videos, I believe you, and I replaced what could've been the obvious. I tested it afterwards and it's working fine". 😉


----------



## itguy

That's great news, really happy for you that it is now working properly.

It would be very helpful for all of us I think if you do ever manage to figure out what the switch is doing on the right hand side - mode 1 and mode 0.

What do you think it was doing today in mode 1? Did it boost steam after pulling the shots? What was the starting boiler pressure when you started pulling the shots?


----------



## DavecUK

itguy said:


> That's great news, really happy for you that it is now working properly.
> 
> It would be very helpful for all of us I think if you do ever manage to figure out what the switch is doing on the right hand side - mode 1 and mode 0.
> 
> What do you think it was doing today in mode 1? Did it boost steam after pulling the shots? What was the starting boiler pressure when you started pulling the shots?


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Well, my machine appears to be fixed 😁
> 
> Tried this morning in mode 1. Pulled 2 shots, then foamed 240ml of milk in probably around 30 seconds. Exactly the same workflow as before and same settings. Just works now. Completely effortless, as it should be.
> 
> I'm still a bit baffled about a couple of things....
> 
> Martin said my machine was working fine but replaced the temp sensor with an ECM one as the existing one was out by a couple of degrees. This must be the fix as mine never worked previously and now seems to work perfectly.
> 
> Still not sure about what mode is what but they both work so will continue to do my own tests and follow this thread 😊


 Superb! So glad you've got it working.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Well... in my world, if the machine is working perfectly fine you don't go and replace a part, do you? So yeah, maybe he means "machine was releasing steam. I saw your videos, I believe you, and I replaced what could've been the obvious. I tested it afterwards and it's working fine". 😉


 Indeed. Just glad it's fixed and I didn't turn out to be an incompetant moron 😂


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> That's great news, really happy for you that it is now working properly.
> 
> It would be very helpful for all of us I think if you do ever manage to figure out what the switch is doing on the right hand side - mode 1 and mode 0.
> 
> What do you think it was doing today in mode 1? Did it boost steam after pulling the shots? What was the starting boiler pressure when you started pulling the shots?


 I'm going to have a play...not sure who to believe. Probably the only way to know for sure is to get a portafilter temp sensor rigged up.

Today I switched it on and forgot it was in mode O when it got to it about an hour later steam temp was just above one 1 bar. I switched it to mode 1 and it slowly crept up to 1.5 bar. Martin says this proves that mode 1 is HX mode. I don't know as I have no testing kit.

I flushed the PF a few times anyway just to be sure and then pulled my shots. Bizzarely both modes seem to have a bit of a steam boost after pulling a shot. The only difference is mode O steam temp settles around 1-1.2 bar and mode 1 it settles much higher 1.5-1.6 so I can see why Martin is saying this.

Someone with more kit and understanding probably needs to figure this out once and for all as Martin says Lelit are just as confused and they built it.

Bottom line is mine now works either way... as it should, no silly workflows, just pull your shots, steam as much milk as you like and enjoy it 😊


----------



## MonkeyHarris

> 1 hour ago, DavecUK said:


 Martin dismissed this video, hence the confusion


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> up to 1.5 bar. Martin says this proves that mode 1 is HX mode.


 If the pressure goes to 0.5bar whist idling and then boosts now and again, you know it's in clever mode. If just hangs around a set pressure, then you know it's in dumb mode.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Spoke too soon....different problem now.

Tried making a latte just now. 45 minute warm up. Pulled a shot. Put the milk in the jug. Went to purge steam wand and 'nothing'

The knob just seems to be unscrewing and not opening the valve. Martin said he didn't touch this but the wand itself was loose. I don't understand as it was working fine yesterday.

Any ideas what I need to check?

Do I need to wait for it to cool down before checking anything?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> Spoke too soon....different problem now.
> 
> Tried making a latte just now. 45 minute warm up. Pulled a shot. Put the milk in the jug. Went to purge steam wand and 'nothing'
> 
> The knob just seems to be unscrewing and not opening the valve. Martin said he didn't touch this but the wand itself was loose. I don't understand as it was working fine yesterday.
> 
> Any ideas what I need to check?
> 
> Do I need to wait for it to cool down before checking anything?


 If you unscrew it all the way, it doesn't open the steam valve at all?


----------



## itguy

Odd! The chrome dome cap in the centre of the knob just pulls out, so if you can do that you can see if the knob is actually turning the valve spindle etc. Weird problem!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Ok found the problem...this washer has come off and is a bit mangled ☹









Guess they did take it off and didn't refit correctly.. 😩

I've tried to flatten it but keeps slipping so will have to speak to them about getting another one.

Anyone know if there is supposed to be a gap between the washer and the brass collar?


----------



## DavecUK

Could you do a photo with the whole assembly, knob valve, the knob removed if it's now loose, is there a thread inside that domed thing.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Ok found the problem...this washer has come off and is a bit mangled ☹
> 
> View attachment 51356
> 
> 
> Guess they did take it off and didn't refit correctly.. 😩
> 
> I've tried to flatten it but keeps slipping so will have to speak to them about getting another one.
> 
> Anyone know if there is supposed to be a gap between the washer and the brass collar?


 You couldn't write this script... 😞


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> Could you do a photo with the whole assembly, knob valve, the knob removed if it's now loose, is there a thread inside that domed thing.


 This is a photo of the hot water wand









this is of the now bodged steam wand









there's clearly a gap so I'm wondering if that is supposed to be there and why it got bent and came off in the first place.


----------



## itguy

Oh for goodness sake.. that is terrible, but an easy fix all the same with the right new parts. In some ways this must be preferable to an electronic fault again of some description. Arrrgghhh!!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> You couldn't write this script... 😞


 Tell me about it


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Arrrgghhh!!


 This is exactly what I said 😂


----------



## DavecUK

MonkeyHarris said:


> there's clearly a gap so I'm wondering if that is supposed to be there and why it got bent and came off in the first place.


 In the interests of correct information for people who read this thread, and so they don't get confused. I took the trouble of making a little video. In the video I explain how the knob works.

The explanation for how the circlip can get bent is simple (and it can only really get bent one way outwards). When the steam wand is opened fully, it comes to its stop, the end point. If more force than is reasonable is applied, then the circlip can be bent outwards as attempts are made to unscrew the knob further. This is the only way it can be bent like in your photo. It's not possible to do as per the photo on fitting or removal...if it is, then I would have to be shown, because I can't think of a way.






I would imagine an auto parts shop/or similar hardware type store would probably have a similar circlip...as it's a PITA to wait for such a small part and I would imagine they are not a stocked spare...perhaps they should be.

P.S. I should make the point that the valve is probably fully open at least 1/2 a turn before the valve comes up against it's stop.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

> 1 hour ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> In the interests of correct information for people who read this thread, and so they don't get confused. I took the trouble of making a little video. In the video I explain how the knob works.
> 
> The explanation for how the circlip can get bent is simple (and it can only really get bent one way outwards). When the steam wand is opened fully, it comes to its stop, the end point. If more force than is reasonable is applied, then the circlip can be bent outwards as attempts are made to unscrew the knob further. This is the only way it can be bent like in your photo. It's not possible to do as per the photo on fitting or removal...if it is, then I would have to be shown, because I can't think of a way.


 Thanks Dave. Makes sense.

I can assure I have treated this machine with the gentle respect of a new born baby. No excessive force applied at all. Just finger tips.

It got bent while it was out for repair. Possibly they forgot to remove it while attempting to unscrew the knob. I know they did something with the steam wand as it was limp when it came back and the nut was not even finger tip tight.

It is a huge PITA and I have temporarily swapped it over with the hot water wand until I can source the part.


----------



## DavecUK

I can only explain how it happened...not who 🙂


----------



## Doram

MonkeyHarris said:


> It is a huge PITA and I have temporarily swapped it over with the hot water wand until I can source the part.


 Might be an obvious point, but just in case you haven't tried - if it is bent, maybe it can be bent back (like in a vice or with pliers, or maybe even returned to the machine inside out and unscrew the knob to put pressure to try and straighten it, even as a temporary solution till you get a new one)?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Doram said:


> Might be an obvious point, but just in case you haven't tried - if it is bent, maybe it can be bent back (like in a vice or with pliers, or maybe even returned to the machine inside out and unscrew the knob to put pressure to try and straighten it, even as a temporary solution till you get a new one)?


 I did flatten it with pliers and teased back into shape as best I could by it's a bit temperamental now so swapped with hot water tap which I can live without for a bit.

I've got a link to a new one so going to try and order tomorrow ☺


----------



## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> I can only explain how it happened...not who 🙂


 Thanks Dave. Sorry feeling bit sensitive and defensive now 😅


----------



## DavecUK

On the positive side the posts have elicited some useful information for people.


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@MonkeyHarris - Not tried to order from them since Brexit but these people were great in terms of Lelit spares.

I think the Mara-x and Mara PL62 wands are the same fittings, so you can get a full replacement one with seals etc for not that much if you need one down the road.

https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/en/ricambi-rubinetti-vapore-lelit.html


----------



## djrustycans

Good afternoon!

Well, I have my MaraX back in action and all seems to be functioning well thus far (sorry @MonkeyHarris 😞).

I haven't gone beyond making a first round of drinks yet but have experienced no pressure loss and the MaraX is acting as it always did when it worked properly.

I'm absolutely sure that my MaraX works as it states in the manual and @DavecUK's review:

Mode 1: Coffee Priority (X)

Mode 0: Steam Priority (HX)

In mode 1 (X), I experience a steam boost after pulling a shot which results in circa 1.5 bar steam pressure. When left for a while, the steam pressure is idle at around 0.6 - 0.75 as expected.

In mode 0 (HX, (set to temp II under drip tray) the steam pressure stays idle at circa 1.6.

Nothing else to add - it's simple and unless anybody else's machine does the opposite, there shouldn't be any confusion 😂

P.s. thanks to BB for fixing the issue with the faulty temp sensor!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Good afternoon!
> 
> Well, I have my MaraX back in action and all seems to be functioning well thus far (sorry @MonkeyHarris 😞).
> 
> I haven't gone beyond making a first round of drinks yet but have experienced no pressure loss and the MaraX is acting as it always did when it worked properly.
> 
> I'm absolutely sure that my MaraX works as it states in the manual and @DavecUK's review:
> 
> Mode 1: Coffee Priority (X)
> 
> Mode 0: Steam Priority (HX)
> 
> In mode 1 (X), I experience a steam boost after pulling a shot which results in circa 1.5 bar steam pressure. When left for a while, the steam pressure is idle at around 0.6 - 0.75 as expected.
> 
> In mode 0 (HX, (set to temp II under drip tray) the steam pressure stays idle at circa 1.6.
> 
> Nothing else to add - it's simple and unless anybody else's machine does the opposite, there shouldn't be any confusion 😂
> 
> P.s. thanks to BB for fixing the issue with the faulty temp sensor!


 Glad it's fixed.

Mine is working fine but for the damaged clip, which I've temporarily swapped with the hot water tap.

I'm using mine the same as you. Mode 1 as I notice a difference in extraction temp when using the drip tray PID settings.

Oddly though mine idles at 1 bar in HX and 0.6ish in X mode. Either way it seems to steam fine now.

2 down, 1 to go 😁


----------



## itguy

Brilliant stuff, that's good to hear that it is all sorted too. UPS dropped mine off at BB this morning at 9:20, so I am hoping to hear back from them a bit later on... I wonder if my sensor is faulty too?

Very odd that BB keep pedalling the 'reversed' HX / coffee mode switch thing...


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> 2 down, 1 to go 😁


 😬


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Oddly though mine idles at 1 bar in HX and 0.6ish in X mode. Either way it seems to steam fine now.


 This surely depends upon the drip tray 3 way selector? I set mine at 'II' for the HX mode test to get the highest idle steam pressure.

When the 3 way selector is at '0', mine probably would sit at 1 bar when idle..


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> This surely depends upon the drip tray 3 way selector? I set mine at 'II' for the HX mode test to get the highest idle steam pressure.
> 
> When the 3 way selector is at '0', mine probably would sit at 1 bar when idle..


 Good point 😁

That's why I need this forum's


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Very odd that BB keep pedalling the 'reversed' HX / coffee mode switch thing...


 This^^^!! I can only comment on mine - maybe Lelit made lots of machines with this reversed. Mine came back in mode '0' also, not that it means anything.


----------



## Doram

MonkeyHarris said:


> 2 down, 1 to go 😁


 Might be 3 down, if you count the message in the main Mara X forum from @Merchant-Seaman - not the same issue (loss of steam power, quite the opposite), but the same culprit: faulty temp sensor in a two-month old machine.

Wonder how many more issues coming from these sensors will arise. Doesn't instill much confidence. Hopefully it's a bad batch issue and won't affect too many machines.


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> Good point 😁
> 
> That's why I need this forum's


 FYI, my steam pressure has gone down to nearly 1 bar when I switched back to '0' on the temp switch in HX mode.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Doram said:


> Might be 3 down, if you count the message in the main Mara X forum from @Merchant-Seaman - not the same issue (loss of steam power, quite the opposite), but the same culprit: faulty temp sensor in a two-month old machine.
> 
> Wonder how many more issues coming from these sensors will arise. Doesn't instill much confidence. Hopefully it's a bad batch issue and won't affect too many machines.


 BB are charging these repairs to Lelit so I guess it'll be in their best interest to get it fixed quickly.


----------



## itguy

Out of interest @MonkeyHarris and @djrustycans, how long did Martin/BB take to look at the machine when they got it in?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Out of interest @MonkeyHarris and @djrustycans, how long did Martin/BB take to look at the machine when they got it in?


 He had mine for 2 days, sent it back on the 3rd, got it in the 4th


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Out of interest @MonkeyHarris and @djrustycans, how long did Martin/BB take to look at the machine when they got it in?


 BB received it on Thursday last week, Martin looked at it on Friday morning and it was shipped lunchtime Friday on next business day delivery. Got it back at 9am this morning!


----------



## itguy

How are the repaired machines running now?

Not heard anything from BB, despite my machine being delivered there on Monday at 9:20am... grrr..


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> How are the repaired machines running now?
> 
> Not heard anything from BB, despite my machine being delivered there on Monday at 9:20am... grrr..


 Running absolutely great now. Even when autofill has kicked in during steaming, it hasn't been a big issue - pressure has still stayed above 1 bar. I find steaming enough for 2 large lattes in X mode almost back to back is fine. Starts to struggle a little, towards the end by the second one, but I accept that I'm pushing it with 375ml a go!!

Works fine from idle too, after a couple of hours. Just walk up, pull a shot and wait for the steam boost.

Sorry to hear you've heard nothing yet - have you called the service no?


----------



## itguy

That's really great to hear. Yes I'll be chasing them tomorrow for sure.... My niche arrives tomorrow and i have no machine to use it with!!


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> My niche arrives tomorrow and i have no machine to use it with!!


 That's completely unacceptable!!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> How are the repaired machines running now?
> 
> Not heard anything from BB, despite my machine being delivered there on Monday at 9:20am... grrr..


 Apart from the clip issue it's been running as expected. Having said that I've only made 4-5 lattes since I got it back.

I didn't get any communication either until I phoned them.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> That's really great to hear. Yes I'll be chasing them tomorrow for sure.... My niche arrives tomorrow and i have no machine to use it with!!


 Mine is coming in the next batch 😁


----------



## itguy

Well.... my machine is number 3 out of 3 then for a new steam boiler sensor.. ECM one fitted, machine being shipped back to me today and should get it tomorrow.

That just gives me the niche this afternoon to season the burrs on, by putting 2kg of coffee through it! All in prep for tomorrow


----------



## Ilias

Is burr seasoning necessary ?


----------



## itguy

Ilias said:


> Is burr seasoning necessary ?


 Not sure to be honest, just habit based on all other grinders I've bought. Plus it gives me something coffee related to do today rather than force myself to drink nespresso


----------



## Ilias

Just do a V60 😛


----------



## itguy

Now there's an idea... I've not used my old V60 for a very very long time. I might even have some filters left somewhere.. hmmmm 🤔


----------



## Ilias

itguy said:


> Now there's an idea... I've not used my old V60 for a very very long time. I might even have some filters left somewhere.. hmmmm 🤔


 Great. Just follow this


----------



## itguy

@MonkeyHarris @djrustycans - in terms of your machines operation since you've had them back, have either of you tried to steam more than 2 large quantities of milk without switching the machine off in between? So say 2 early morning lattes and then leaving the machine on then 2 mid morning lattes ?

I'm just trying to get my head around why a 'slow to respond' steam temperature probe would cause the issues we were having. I can only assume it will be because it will mean the heating element won't know to come on early enough to avoid pressure drop off, and when the auto fill kicks in, it takes too long to realise (temperature wise) and then element comes on too late?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> @MonkeyHarris @djrustycans - in terms of your machines operation since you've had them back, have either of you tried to steam more than 2 large quantities of milk without switching the machine off in between? So say 2 early morning lattes and then leaving the machine on then 2 mid morning lattes ?
> 
> I'm just trying to get my head around why a 'slow to respond' steam temperature probe would cause the issues we were having. I can only assume it will be because it will mean the heating element won't know to come on early enough to avoid pressure drop off, and when the auto fill kicks in, it takes too long to realise (temperature wise) and then element comes on too late?


 I haven't I'm afraid. I don't drink that many. Usually if I do a couple of lattes I steam one load of milk for both.

The only thing I can say is I've tried a few different workflows and it now fills me with confidence when steaming as the steam is constant, even when the pressure drops it just keeps going. I now don't feel the need to even look at the steam pressure.

I don't think you'll have any issues. Martin claimed they steamed many pitchers of 500ml on mine over the course of a day without issue.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> @MonkeyHarris @djrustycans - in terms of your machines operation since you've had them back, have either of you tried to steam more than 2 large quantities of milk without switching the machine off in between? So say 2 early morning lattes and then leaving the machine on then 2 mid morning lattes ?
> 
> I'm just trying to get my head around why a 'slow to respond' steam temperature probe would cause the issues we were having. I can only assume it will be because it will mean the heating element won't know to come on early enough to avoid pressure drop off, and when the auto fill kicks in, it takes too long to realise (temperature wise) and then element comes on too late?


 Yes, I've done this. My usual usage is 2 large lattes first thing, leave the machine on for a couple of hours, then make 2 more large lattes. Has been fine so far....


----------



## itguy

That's all really encouraging. Roll on tomorrow when mine is back!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> That's all really encouraging. Roll on tomorrow when mine is back!


 What colour Niche have you ordered?


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> What colour Niche have you ordered?


 White, just got it out at lunchtime. V nice bit of kit. Lots of static so far but hopefully that will all bed down a bit after a bit of use...


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> White, just got it out at lunchtime. V nice bit of kit. Lots of static so far but hopefully that will all bed down a bit after a bit of use...


 I ordered the white also. Hoping mine comes earlier than March.

I expect once the coffee oils have lubricated it a bit that will reduce. I'm not a fan of the idea of spraying beans with water.

This will be only my second grinder and I'm really hoping it's better with lighter roasts than my Compak k3.


----------



## DavecUK

@MonkeyHarris I use mine for light thru to medium dark roasts and I've found it fine with all of them. Admittedly at the moment I'm testing E64mm flat burr ELR and that seems good as well.


----------



## djrustycans

Can you lot stop gloating about your Niche grinders? I was happy with my new Mignon Specialita!!

My wife will literally kill me if I buy a third grinder within 12 months 😩


----------



## itguy

Oh but it looks so good next the MaraX and by now, it is the defecto standard pairing... plus of course it's a damn fine grinder by all accounts (I'll tell you tomorrow  )


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> plus of course it's a damn fine grinder by all accounts (I'll tell you tomorrow  )


 Please don't bother..


----------



## itguy

Machine back, not damaged (thank goodness), quick wipe down and it's now on and warming up... fingers crossed!!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Machine back, not damaged (thank goodness), quick wipe down and it's now on and warming up... fingers crossed!!


 Myself and @djrustycans need to see a pic with the Niche 😁


----------



## itguy

LOL yes ok... but a bit later on when I've sorted out my coffee corner... My MaraX is on our island at the moment and Niche is on the counter top. All a bit of a mess !

But I have got a break in meetings now to go and test the MaraX and pull my first shot from the Niche..  It's been warming up for the past hour so should be good to go


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> LOL yes ok... but a bit later on when I've sorted out my coffee corner... My MaraX is on our island at the moment and Niche is on the counter top. All a bit of a mess !
> 
> But I have got a break in meetings now to go and test the MaraX and pull my first shot from the Niche..  It's been warming up for the past hour so should be good to go


 Come on - we can put up with the mess, let's have a gander!


----------



## itguy

Oh go on then...

now - the nespresso is where the Mara usually goes and obviously for emergency use only (will be gone now the MaraX is back).

special prize to anyone who spots the empty ashbeck bottle !!

anyway, niche is brilliant, no static when using proper beans, set it to 16 on the grind and it pulled two great shots - haven't even needed to adjust it.

MaraX steaming seems more responsive and it kept the pressure all the way through, unlike before. Looks good!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> Oh go on then...
> 
> now - the nespresso is where the Mara usually goes and obviously for emergency use only (will be gone now the MaraX is back).
> 
> special prize to anyone who spots the empty ashbeck bottle !!
> 
> anyway, niche is brilliant, no static when using proper beans, set it to 16 on the grind and it pulled two great shots - haven't even needed to adjust it.
> 
> MaraX steaming seems more responsive and it kept the pressure all the way through, unlike before. Looks good!
> 
> View attachment 51506


 Niche looks so small. Is it lower than the Marax, I didn't actually check dimensions

I see the bottle by the back door 😄


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

There's something weird, like, alien to the right side of the Niche. Never seen one of those. What's that? 🤣🍿


----------



## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There's something weird, like, alien to the right side of the Niche. Never seen one of those. What's that? 🤣🍿


 Well it's certainly an imposter!!


----------



## itguy

MonkeyHarris said:


> Niche looks so small. Is it lower than the Marax, I didn't actually check dimensions


 Interestingly, the Niche is slightly bigger than the specialita I had before, but I didn't have the hopper on it, just a dosing tube.

The niche is so lovely to use in terms of workflow. The ability to just set it grinding then walk away is brilliant. As you can see I have a decent PF holder and decent magnetic short funnel and I will be testing direct to PF shortly...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Interestingly, the Niche is slightly bigger than the specialita I had before, but I didn't have the hopper on it, just a dosing tube.
> The niche is so lovely to use in terms of workflow. The ability to just set it grinding then walk away is brilliant. As you can see I have a decent PF holder and decent magnetic short funnel and I will be testing direct to PF shortly...


 Like this?








It should work great!


----------



## itguy

yep - although I've got the tall PF holder and short funnel - the end game is the same !!


----------



## itguy

Just noticed a small (outwards) dent on the case on the side of mine. Rang BB, they've got them on back order and will ship me a new one, no trouble at all - first class service.

Oh, and my wife said my hurried first try of the Niche and MaraX since it's been back was (and I quote) "the best coffee I have ever made".

Obviously I took the credit, not the hardware, beans, grinder etc etc.

It was really really good... Proper setup photo later when everything is cleaned, in position etc.


----------



## bigsav

itguy said:


> But I have got a break in meetings now to go and test the MaraX and pull my first shot from the Niche..  It's been warming up for the past hour so should be good to go


 I've never warmed my Niche up for that long? Have I been doing something wrong? 😉


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Oh, and my wife said my hurried first try of the Niche and MaraX since it's been back was (and I quote) "the best coffee I have ever made".
> 
> Obviously I took the credit, not the hardware, beans, grinder etc etc.
> 
> It was really really good... Proper setup photo later when everything is cleaned, in position etc.


 Ok, you need to stop there. You're supposed to say that 'you've not really noticed any difference in the quality of the coffee with the Niche but it's nice to have all the same...' In some ways, you wish you hadn't spent the extra dough over the Specialita - it's just placebo after all?? Nice kitchen btw - grinder looks awful.


----------



## itguy

it's only 200 quid more.... if you already have a specialita.. (just sell it to part fund the niche..)


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Oh, and my wife said my hurried first try of the Niche and MaraX since it's been back was (and I quote) "the best coffee I have ever made".


 I've heard this so many times... And she doesn't even like coffee. A few days later the true bombshell comes, something like: "Darling, you know you bought yourself a new coffee machine and grinder? Well, I treated myself too, and bought a new car." 🍿🤣


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I've heard this so many times... And she doesn't even like coffee. A few days later the true bombshell comes, something like: "Darling, you know you bought yourself a new coffee machine and grinder? Well, I treated myself too, and bought a new car." 🍿🤣


 This is sadly very true. My wife let me have a new marax and niche but has now got double glazing people booked in 😩


----------



## Doram

MonkeyHarris said:


> MediumRoastSteam said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've heard this so many times... And she doesn't even like coffee. A few days later the true bombshell comes, something like: "Darling, you know you bought yourself a new coffee machine and grinder? Well, I treated myself too, and bought a new car." 🍿🤣
> 
> 
> 
> This is sadly very true. My wife let me have a new marax and niche but has now got double glazing people booked in 😩
Click to expand...

 @DavecUK, can we rename this thread XXXX [enter wife's name] steam issue? Would give it a new lease of live. 😉


----------



## DavecUK

Doram said:


> @DavecUK, can we rename this thread XXXX [enter wife's name] steam issue? Would give it a new lease of live. ????


----------



## itguy

Finally, all tidy and ready for the morning now...


----------



## JesmondJester

itguy said:


> Finally, all tidy and ready for the morning now...
> 
> View attachment 51532
> 
> 
> View attachment 51533


 Now that is what I like to call - the dream.

Just parked my Niche (arrived yesterday) up against my £30 used Gaggia New Baby.

Showing your pic to my wife so she knows what the counters will look like by the end of the year. 🙂


----------



## HVL87

itguy said:


> Finally, all tidy and ready for the morning now...
> 
> View attachment 51532
> 
> 
> View attachment 51533


 Very nice setup - MaraX came back with steam powerful enough to melt your tamping mat?

What are your initials thoughts on Niche vs. Specialita?


----------



## itguy

That's very kind, thank you! I forgot to put my favourite cups on top (Loveramics Tulip for me, Loveramics Egg for my wife).

My scales are also a bit meh, so I treated myself to a set of Felicita Arc ones this morning. Hopefully they won't take too long to get here. I think I'm done then!

I'm running an IMS shower screen, VST 18g ridgeless basket too, and obviously the Expobar stubby hot water wand.

It's a fun game isn't it!!


----------



## itguy

HVL87 said:


> Very nice setup - MaraX came back with steam powerful enough to melt your tamping mat?
> 
> What are your initials thoughts on Niche vs. Specialita?


 Thank you 

Yes have no complaints of the steaming now. Because I kept a log of what it was doing before, I can see how I get on now and see if any of the old patterns re-occur.

Niche vs Specialita - probably too early to say, but the grinds from the Niche are lovely and clump free, great workflow compared to the Specialita which I was running in single dose style with blower etc.

Taste - well, considering I set my niche to setting 16 just to give it a try and it pulled a 18g in, 38g out in 34s (about what I aim for) and it was more tasty than ANY shot I've had out of the MaraX / Specialita combo before... i'm impressed.


----------



## HVL87

itguy said:


> Taste - well, considering I set my niche to setting 16 just to give it a try and it pulled a 18g in, 38g out in 34s (about what I aim for) and it was more tasty than ANY shot I've had out of the MaraX / Specialita combo before... i'm impressed.


 It's completely unrelated but let's blame that on the faulty temp sensor...I'm not envious at all..


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> I think I'm done then!


 You're never done...ever 😂


----------



## itguy

And the morning update - MaraX working strong, no issues in two coffees, 30 mins apart, milk steaming on both.

Niche update - well this morning I discovered just how great the adjustment (fineness of) is. My first shot was 35s, thought it needed to run slightly quicker, went from 16 on the niche to 17 and bam... next shot 33s. No purging, no messing, just adjust, go, get results.

The Specialita did have reasonable grind adjustment but the lack of true markings and a very small adjustment wheel didn't help - it has numbers 1, 2, 3 etc and then markings on the half way between, but the niche is much more granular in adjustment and repeatability.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> And the morning update - MaraX working strong, no issues in two coffees, 30 mins apart, milk steaming on both.
> 
> Niche update - well this morning I discovered just how great the adjustment (fineness of) is. My first shot was 35s, thought it needed to run slightly quicker, went from 16 on the niche to 17 and bam... next shot 33s. No purging, no messing, just adjust, go, get results.
> 
> The Specialita did have reasonable grind adjustment but the lack of true markings and a very small adjustment wheel didn't help - it has numbers 1, 2, 3 etc and then markings on the half way between, but the niche is much more granular in adjustment and repeatability.


 Great news - back in business!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

itguy said:


> And the morning update - MaraX working strong, no issues in two coffees, 30 mins apart, milk steaming on both.
> 
> Niche update - well this morning I discovered just how great the adjustment (fineness of) is. My first shot was 35s, thought it needed to run slightly quicker, went from 16 on the niche to 17 and bam... next shot 33s. No purging, no messing, just adjust, go, get results.
> 
> The Specialita did have reasonable grind adjustment but the lack of true markings and a very small adjustment wheel didn't help - it has numbers 1, 2, 3 etc and then markings on the half way between, but the niche is much more granular in adjustment and repeatability.


 Can't wait for mine to turn up.

Glad your MaraX is also fixed. So much better when you don't need to worry about your workflow etc.


----------



## djrustycans

After a few days of usage, I'm still having issues with my MaraX. I've had a couple of times where I've experienced drastic pressure loss by the second lot of steaming.

I even had an autofill despite having initiated one before the second lot of steaming. My machine just isn't capable of steaming two lots of (375ml) milk.

Not sure where to go at this point - is it just my machine or unrealistic expectations?


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> After a few days of usage, I'm still having issues with my MaraX. I've had a couple of times where I've experienced drastic pressure loss by the second lot of steaming.
> 
> I even had an autofill despite having initiated one before the second lot of steaming. My machine just isn't capable of steaming two lots of (375ml) milk.
> 
> Not sure where to go at this point - is it just my machine or unrealistic expectations?


 Oh dear.

If you want to try to explain your exact workflow to me I'll try to do the same on mine and see what happens.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> If you want to try to explain your exact workflow to me I'll try to do the same on mine and see what happens.


 That'd be great, thanks. Just going to try round 2 with smaller amounts of milk and see how that goes. Be back later!


----------



## djrustycans

Just had another go - the Mara X has been on all morning so pulled a shot and steamed what I class as a small amount of milk (250ml 😀) in a smaller jug. No problem with the first drink but on the second one, I got an auto fill and loss of pressure 🤬.

For fun, I ditched the second drink (always mine!) and had another crack - this is new territory making 3 back to back!

Worked perfectly this time and steam pressure stayed fixed at 1.5.

It's almost like the machine needs more action before the steam is stable. Maybe this is why it usually performs better from first start because the boiler heats up and the pressure gets really high, plus I refresh the water tank which also helps.

As before, I sometimes experience the pressure drop prior to the auto fill when steaming.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Just had another go - the Mara X has been on all morning so pulled a shot and steamed what I class as a small amount of milk (250ml 😀) in a smaller jug. No problem with the first drink but on the second one, I got an auto fill and loss of pressure 🤬.
> 
> For fun, I ditched the second drink (always mine!) and had another crack - this is new territory making 3 back to back!
> 
> Worked perfectly this time and steam pressure stayed fixed at 1.5.
> 
> It's almost like the machine needs more action before the steam is stable. Maybe this is why it usually performs better from first start because the boiler heats up and the pressure gets really high, plus I refresh the water tank which also helps.
> 
> As before, I sometimes experience the pressure drop prior to the auto fill when steaming.


 Mine has been solid since I got it back but I don't steam milk anywhere near as frequently as you or as much volume. I usually only do one 240ml jug a day if that but so far I haven't experienced any issues regardless of workflow, time of day, leaving it on or switching off and on again later.

I do frequently get refills in between pulling a shot and steaming but not had any during yet.

I'm not 100% sure mine had exactly the same issue as you guys though as mine went from never working ever. I think I had a steam wand blockage in addition to the other issue.


----------



## zellleonhart

Received my Mara X back from the retailer, he has changed the SSR (solid state relay) for me and tested for 3 days over 8+ on/off cycle, he hasn't seen the steam over pressure issue happening anymore.

Tested for 2 warm up cycles and it seems to be good so far. He also suggested to stop the wifi smart plug (in case it causes unstable electricity or something along the line) for a week to rule out the possibility.

Hopefully it's all good from now onwards!


----------



## itguy

zellleonhart said:


> Received my Mara X back from the retailer, he has changed the SSR (solid state relay) for me and tested for 3 days over 8+ on/off cycle, he hasn't seen the steam over pressure issue happening anymore.
> 
> Tested for 2 warm up cycles and it seems to be good so far. He also suggested to stop the wifi smart plug (in case it causes unstable electricity or something along the line) for a week to rule out the possibility.
> 
> Hopefully it's all good from now onwards!


 Excellent, that's good news then. I use a Wi-Fi plug with mine and haven't had any issues. Mine is a Meross one.


----------



## djrustycans

zellleonhart said:


> Received my Mara X back from the retailer, he has changed the SSR (solid state relay) for me and tested for 3 days over 8+ on/off cycle, he hasn't seen the steam over pressure issue happening anymore.
> 
> Tested for 2 warm up cycles and it seems to be good so far. He also suggested to stop the wifi smart plug (in case it causes unstable electricity or something along the line) for a week to rule out the possibility.
> 
> Hopefully it's all good from now onwards!


 Great! I also use a smart plug. (TP Link)


----------



## djrustycans

I've been doing 250ml of milk (instead of 370) each time when making coffee for the last few days and the operation of my MaraX has been flawless!

I've got 2 guys doing our front patio and I made 4 back to back Lattes with no pressure drop or autofill yesterday. Quite amazing really.

Ultimately, I think the MaraX just isn't comfortable steaming larger quantities of milk. It could probably do a sizeable amount in the first pass but I suspect that after doing 370ml, it needs a good rest before having another go.

What a relief to have finally cracked it 😅


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> I've been doing 250ml of milk (instead of 370) each time when making coffee for the last few days and the operation of my MaraX has been flawless!
> 
> I've got 2 guys doing our front patio and I made 4 back to back Lattes with no pressure drop or autofill yesterday. Quite amazing really.
> 
> Ultimately, I think the MaraX just isn't comfortable steaming larger quantities of milk. It could probably do a sizeable amount in the first pass but I suspect that after doing 370ml, it needs a good rest before having another go.
> 
> What a relief to have finally cracked it 😅


 Brilliant!

I think you are right. We are all testing the limits of what the MaraX is capable of, and I (probably foolishly) started from a point that assumed it had no limits to the amount of steam it could create and hold at a decent 1.5bar pressure.

Clearly this is me just being a bit silly, as this is not a commercial machine with a 5l boiler and three phase electrics!

I have noticed since mine came back that it doesn't seem to auto-fill during steaming any more. I have seen it a few times auto fill straight after I stop steaming a jug full, but I don't think it has done it yet whilst I have been steaming. I wonder if the temp probe reacting a bit quicker has helped with that somehow.. who knows.... ( @DavecUK knows I expect!!)


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Brilliant!
> 
> I think you are right. We are all testing the limits of what the MaraX is capable of, and I (probably foolishly) started from a point that assumed it had no limits to the amount of steam it could create and hold at a decent 1.5bar pressure.
> 
> Clearly this is me just being a bit silly, as this is not a commercial machine with a 5l boiler and three phase electrics!
> 
> I have noticed since mine came back that it doesn't seem to auto-fill during steaming any more. I have seen it a few times auto fill straight after I stop steaming a jug full, but I don't think it has done it yet whilst I have been steaming. I wonder if the temp probe reacting a bit quicker has helped with that somehow.. who knows.... ( @DavecUK knows I expect!!)


 Thanks.
I think we all like to push things to the limit as soon as we get them - 'let's see what this baby can do!' and then feel disappointed when we max them out!

My coffee is definitely better for having less milk - can taste the lovely espresso more as a result!


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> I have noticed since mine came back that it doesn't seem to auto-fill during steaming any more. I have seen it a few times auto fill straight after I stop steaming a jug full, but I don't think it has done it yet whilst I have been steaming. I wonder if the temp probe reacting a bit quicker has helped with that somehow.. who knows.... ( @DavecUK knows I expect!!)


 I wrote in this thread that mine never auto-fills mid steaming. I was wrong: it does sometimes auto-fill in the middle of steaming. The reason I made the mistake is that it doesn't create any problem for steaming, so I didn't notice it.

I guess the combination of large amounts of milk + multiple steaming + auto fill + an iffy temp probe takes the machine over the limit. With small amounts of milk and a functioning temp probe, a small auto-fill in the middle of steaming isn't a problem for me.


----------



## itguy

Yes, and if the temp probe is quicker to react and report accurate temps, the heating element has a chance to catch the auto fill induced temp drop quicker than if the temp probe is laggy.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I'm very pleased reading the latest developments here. Looks like all in all a very quick problem solving and great service from Bella Barista in the grand scheme of things.


----------



## maraxlatte

OK so i read through all 20 pages here as I was dealing with some steam issues, but it was most likely user error on my part!

Today, my workflow involved walking up to the preheated Mara X (at least 45 mins), then brewing espresso right away without flushing.

After brewing, did not flush to wash my portafilter, instead used hot water from the tap. Then, proceeded to steam once i saw it hit 1.5 bar. Steaming pressure was great for 180ml of milk, good foam.

Next, made second drink and brewed espresso again without flushing. Steamed milk after when I saw 1.5 bar and no issues with steam for 180ml of milk.

As an experiment I then tried to steam hot water after and that's when I saw pressure drop to like 0.5 bar. That is probably because I had not brewed prior and therefore no steam kick in was triggered.

Did I figure this out yet??? Lol!

On a side note--has anyone seen 'particles' from their hot water on Mara X? My machine is 10 days old and I was seeing particles coming out. Did a 3-tank flush and they were 99% gone yesterday. This morning some more particles re-appeared. Flushed another 1/2 tank and they were gone...any ideas??


----------



## MonkeyHarris

maraxlatte said:


> OK so i read through all 20 pages here as I was dealing with some steam issues, but it was most likely user error on my part!
> 
> Today, my workflow involved walking up to the preheated Mara X (at least 45 mins), then brewing espresso right away without flushing.
> 
> After brewing, did not flush to wash my portafilter, instead used hot water from the tap. Then, proceeded to steam once i saw it hit 1.5 bar. Steaming pressure was great for 180ml of milk, good foam.
> 
> Next, made second drink and brewed espresso again without flushing. Steamed milk after when I saw 1.5 bar and no issues with steam for 180ml of milk.
> 
> As an experiment I then tried to steam hot water after and that's when I saw pressure drop to like 0.5 bar. That is probably because I had not brewed prior and therefore no steam kick in was triggered.
> 
> Did I figure this out yet??? Lol!
> 
> On a side note--has anyone seen 'particles' from their hot water on Mara X? My machine is 10 days old and I was seeing particles coming out. Did a 3-tank flush and they were 99% gone yesterday. This morning some more particles re-appeared. Flushed another 1/2 tank and they were gone...any ideas??


 Sounds like you've figured out the steam problem.

Regarding the particles, I haven't noticed anything but I have seen someone else mention it somewhere. Might be carbon from the water filter in the tank, in which case I'd expect it to clear soon. I don't think coffee particles from the solenoid could find their way back in the boiler.

If it doesn't clear soon maybe message your supplier. Also check the water you're putting in the machine is clear.


----------



## DavecUK

@maraxlatte I would strongly advise using a kettle for you hot water, unless you are simply warming the cup with it.


----------



## Kyle T

DavecUK said:


> @maraxlatte I would strongly advise using a kettle for you hot water, unless you are simply warming the cup with it.


 @DavecUK Hi Dave, what's the reason for this?


----------



## DavecUK

Kyle T said:


> @DavecUK Hi Dave, what's the reason for this?


 A kettle costs less than £20 quid and the water is freshly boiled.


----------



## steffanjtaylor

I think I have the same issue on a September machine; a faulty temperature probe/electronic card- however it seems to manifest in a slightly different way than what I have read in this thread.

The machine heats up and the steam pressure is higher than it formerly was and gets higher with use; it creeps up beyond 2 bars frequently where it used to be 0.75-1.

When I pull the lever, the water that comes from the group bubbles and is steamy.

What I haven't seen anyone else describe (and I may have missed it) is that the pump seems to fail to kick in when I pull up the lever- usually this ramps up through the prefusion and there is an audible difference in the noise of the pump through the ramp up- this does not happen and the manometer remains at 0.


----------



## djrustycans

steffanjtaylor said:


> I think I have the same issue on a September machine; a faulty temperature probe/electronic card- however it seems to manifest in a slightly different way than what I have read in this thread.
> 
> The machine heats up and the steam pressure is higher than it formerly was and gets higher with use; it creeps up beyond 2 bars frequently where it used to be 0.75-1.
> 
> When I pull the lever, the water that comes from the group bubbles and is steamy.
> 
> What I haven't seen anyone else describe (and I may have missed it) is that the pump seems to fail to kick in when I pull up the lever- usually this ramps up through the prefusion and there is an audible difference in the noise of the pump through the ramp up- this does not happen and the manometer remains at 0.


 Oh dear, where did you get it from? Sounds like a service is in order.


----------



## steffanjtaylor

djrustycans said:


> Oh dear, where did you get it from? Sounds like a service is in order.


 Bella Barista. Indeed, unfortunately I only noticed the issue after the phone line was shut today.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

steffanjtaylor said:


> Bella Barista. Indeed, unfortunately I only noticed the issue after the phone line was shut today.


 This might be an issue I saw somewhere else. What size water softener have you got connected? Someone described a very similar issue after connecting a larger one. Basically the pump was struggling to draw water.

Just a test try removing it.


----------



## DavecUK

Do both LEDs flash slowly when you raise the lever and the pump doesn't start? @steffanjtaylor


----------



## steffanjtaylor

MonkeyHarris said:


> This might be an issue I saw somewhere else. What size water softener have you got connected? Someone described a very similar issue after connecting a larger one. Basically the pump was struggling to draw water.
> 
> Just a test try removing it.


 Thank you for the suggestion. I did see a similar note in one of these threads on a youtube video on a machine that exhibits similar behaviour, however I have only ever used 35L filters and removing the filter and trying again did not affect the behaviour.


----------



## steffanjtaylor

DavecUK said:


> Do both LEDs flash slowly when you raise the lever and the pump doesn't start? @steffanjtaylor


 As the lever is raised, the LEDs stay solidly on, the steam pressure rises (without sign of stopping, until shut off) and the pump pressure remains at 0.

I hear a low rumble of what I assume is the water being pushed around the system, yet the pump never seems to kick in for the ramp up of pressure.

Edit: I should clarify, the bottom light (I/O switch) flashes as normal, however the two lights that indicate temperature and water level remain solidly on.


----------



## Boxerman33

Not sure it i should start a new thread or add to this one.

Received my MaraX in the first batch of deliveries early last year, in that time it's been faultless however, in the past week i seem to be having some steaming issues when making my one milk based drink of the day. (my 15-20 expressos per day still run fine)

Basically, the milk isn't so much being steamed but diluted by hot water, so i get an increased volume in the jug but not frothy at all. I purge water before steaming then it seems ok, but the pump often seems to kick in mid steam, or it runs out completely. I always steam before pulling a shot, pressure generally at 2 bar but the needle has been jumping around a bit too. Do i need to be contacting Bella Barista or am i missing something obvious?


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> I always steam before pulling a shot, pressure generally at 2 bar but the needle has been jumping around a bit too. Do i need to be contacting Bella Barista or am i missing something obvious?


 It's not clear what's happening, I don't understand this statement...are you running in HX mode or something?

The MaraX is designed for pulling the shot and then steaming after as the pressure peaks. Before the shot, the pressure would be sitting at 0.6 to 0.8 bar ish


----------



## DavecUK

@steffanjtaylor make sure you describe that behaviour to Bella Barista (if that's where you purchased from), it will help them diagnose the fault.


----------



## Boxerman33

DavecUK said:


> It's not clear what's happening, I don't understand this statement...are you running in HX mode or something?
> 
> The MaraX is designed for pulling the shot and then steaming after as the pressure peaks. Before the shot, the pressure would be sitting at 0.6 to 0.8 bar ish


 sorry if vague!

Mine is in brew priority mode, and on the '1' temp setting. Once up to temp from standby, the pressure is normally around 2bar and historically has given the best steaming performance. Also the milk stays hot whilst i pull the shot, can reverse the workflow easily enough and pull the shot first. I'll monitor it over the next few days!!!


----------



## djrustycans

Boxerman33 said:


> sorry if vague!
> 
> Mine is in brew priority mode, and on the '1' temp setting. Once up to temp from standby, the pressure is normally around 2bar and historically has given the best steaming performance. Also the milk stays hot whilst i pull the shot, can reverse the workflow easily enough and pull the shot first. I'll monitor it over the next few days!!!


 2 bar sounds really high - mine is generally 1.5 in brew priority. It doesn't stay that high for long though unless I'm pulling more shots.


----------



## zellleonhart

Boxerman33 said:


> sorry if vague!
> 
> Mine is in brew priority mode, and on the '1' temp setting. Once up to temp from standby, the pressure is normally around 2bar and historically has given the best steaming performance. Also the milk stays hot whilst i pull the shot, can reverse the workflow easily enough and pull the shot first. I'll monitor it over the next few days!!!


 When the heating LED just got lit up (no longer flashing), it's only about 15 minutes since it's switched on. By then the steam is at around 2 bar but the group head brew temperature will be shooting up until about 32mins. Surely you can froth now but it might affect the brew head temperature which defeats the purpose of brew priority mode.

If the steam pressure is still at 2 bar after 30+mins of warm up (without touching anything), something is not right. It should drop to around 0.5-0.7 bar.


----------



## steffanjtaylor

DavecUK said:


> @steffanjtaylor make sure you describe that behaviour to Bella Barista (if that's where you purchased from), it will help them diagnose the fault.


 I described the behaviour I saw and Martin's first thought was that it might be the temperature probe and GICAR combination. I've raised a repair ticket with Bella Barista and will send the machine shortly. Thank you for the advice.


----------



## DavecUK

Boxerman33 said:


> sorry if vague!
> 
> Mine is in brew priority mode, and on the '1' temp setting. Once up to temp from standby, the pressure is normally around 2bar and historically has given the best steaming performance. Also the milk stays hot whilst i pull the shot, can reverse the workflow easily enough and pull the shot first. I'll monitor it over the next few days!!!


 Yeah...that would be the wrong time to pull a shot as it's going into overheat mode to make the group hot more quickly. If you pull a shot before it's settled, it will most likely be way over temp. I'd suggest disabling standby (first thing I did) and just leave it on for the time you will be making coffee. If you have a coffee in the morning and one late afternoon....use a smart plug and turn it on off as appropriate. When I tested the machine I had the optimum coffee temp was reached after 25-30 minutes from cold startup....don't believe anything else you read



steffanjtaylor said:


> I described the behaviour I saw and Martin's first thought was that it might be the temperature probe and GICAR combination. I've raised a repair ticket with Bella Barista and will send the machine shortly. Thank you for the advice.


 I think it's most likely a faulty Gicar box.


----------



## Boxerman33

mine is on a smart plug and as i'm a bity lazy i use the app to kick the machine back into life from standby mode so it's ready to use once i make the long 20ft walk back to the kitchen!🤦‍♂️🤣

I had to chuckle at the one in the morning and one in the afternoon comment, as i have at least a dozen coffees both in the morning and then again in the afternoon!!!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

SO....

My machine is not working again.

Now working the same as it was before the repair.

Been like it for about a week, have tried every combo but having seen it working as it should I know I'm chasing my tail trying to find an answer with my workflow. It has gone back to never working, spluttering steam, etc.

I've emailed Martin..... Will update when I get a response 😒


----------



## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> SO....
> 
> My machine is not working again.
> 
> Now working the same as it was before the repair.
> 
> Been like it for about a week, have tried every combo but having seen it working as it should I know I'm chasing my tail trying to find an answer with my workflow. It has gone back to never working, spluttering steam, etc.
> 
> I've emailed Martin..... Will update when I get a response 😒


 Complete nightmare - so sorry to hear this. Do you generally suffer from bad luck??


----------



## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Complete nightmare - so sorry to hear this. Do you generally suffer from bad luck??


 😂 yes but even by my standards this is bad


----------



## Mack32

How long should I take to steam approx 130ml of milk straight out of the fridge? It's taking me about 60 seconds which seems a little on the long side?

I'm in brew priority mode. Pressure kicks up to 1.5 bar pretty reliably after pulling a shot (takes about 60sec to jump up). Start steaming and it holds at about 1.2 bar for the duration.

From what I can tell this sounds about right but I'm a little surprised at the steam power - I would have said that the power on my old Sage Barista Pro was better than this. Previously the milk would practically be jumping out of the pitcher once I got a roll on but here it's a gentle roll at best. I'm pretty sure my technique is passable so that shouldn't be it.

Does this track with other people's experience? A little paranoid about steaming after reading this thread...

Thanks all!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

Mack32 said:


> How long should I take to steam approx 130ml of milk straight out of the fridge? It's taking me about 60 seconds which seems a little on the long side?
> 
> I'm in brew priority mode. Pressure kicks up to 1.5 bar pretty reliably after pulling a shot (takes about 60sec to jump up). Start steaming and it holds at about 1.2 bar for the duration.
> 
> From what I can tell this sounds about right but I'm a little surprised at the steam power - I would have said that the power on my old Sage Barista Pro was better than this. Previously the milk would practically be jumping out of the pitcher once I got a roll on but here it's a gentle roll at best. I'm pretty sure my technique is passable so that shouldn't be it.
> 
> Does this track with other people's experience? A little paranoid about steaming after reading this thread...
> 
> Thanks all!


 Yes this sounds the same as mine. When it was fixed the milk was spinning so fast I had to reduce pressure to stop it flying out, now mine is broken again it comes to a standstill at 50c. I then have to just persevere until it reaches temp.

I'm currently running through dozens of tests for BB before it inevitably goes back again.


----------



## profesor_historia

MonkeyHarris said:


> Yes this sounds the same as mine. When it was fixed the milk was spinning so fast I had to reduce pressure to stop it flying out, now mine is broken again it comes to a standstill at 50c. I then have to just persevere until it reaches temp.
> I'm currently running through dozens of tests for BB before it inevitably goes back again.


Did you think of simply returning it and looking for a different machine? I am reading all these post about the troubles some of you have with this machine, it must be really frustrating. Or receiving a new one as it's under warranty. A friend of mine which has got a Rancilio Silvia Pro about 3 weeks ago just realised that the group is a few milimeters lower and too flexible. He sent photos and videos to Rancilio, after 2 days they sent someone for the machine and after other 2 days he received a new machine. I would say this is an astonishingly good customer service.
You should do the same, I have the feeling there is a bad batch of MaraX out there...

I know it's not my business but I just had to say this.


----------



## MonkeyHarris

profesor_historia said:


> Did you think of simply returning it and looking for a different machine? I am reading all these post about the troubles some of you have with this machine, it must be really frustrating. Or receiving a new one as it's under warranty. A friend of mine which has got a Rancilio Silvia Pro about 3 weeks ago just realised that the group is a few milimeters lower and too flexible. He sent photos and videos to Rancilio, after 2 days they sent someone for the machine and after other 2 days he received a new machine. I would say this is an astonishingly good customer service.
> You should do the same, I have the feeling there is a bad batch of MaraX out there...
> 
> I know it's not my business but I just had to say this.


 Mine has been back to BB once for repair and was ok for a few weeks but now it's the same as before. It is really frustrating, I would take a refund in a heartbeat at the moment but it seems I have to prove the issue and jump through lots of hoops before I can arrive at that point. I have asked for a new machine a few times.

I came from a Rancilio and never had a single issue in 11 years. Conceptually the marax is the perfect machine and ticks all the boxes for me, unfortunately it's like the Maserati of espresso machines...great when it actually works.


----------



## profesor_historia

MonkeyHarris said:


> Mine has been back to BB once for repair and was ok for a few weeks but now it's the same as before. It is really frustrating, I would take a refund in a heartbeat at the moment but it seems I have to prove the issue and jump through lots of hoops before I can arrive at that point. I have asked for a new machine a few times.
> 
> I came from a Rancilio and never had a single issue in 11 years. Conceptually the marax is the perfect machine and ticks all the boxes for me, unfortunately it's like the Maserati of espresso machines...great when it actually works.


Well I wish you to receive a new machine in working order and I honestly admire your patience, I couldn't honestly.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

@MonkeyHarris - sorry to hear that. Very frustrating. If you have the choice, maybe swap for another machine, maybe an Elizabeth?


----------



## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @MonkeyHarris - sorry to hear that. Very frustrating. If you have the choice, maybe swap for another machine, maybe an Elizabeth?


 I do like the Elizabeth but I also had my heart set on the exposed E61. Style vs substance. If I do change I'll probably look at a different manufacturer entirely.


----------



## Boxerman33

Had service engineer out to mine as they thought the reported fault could be fixed on site, but it's been returned to BB as it still wouldn't work after the repairs!

Bit worrying that a few faults and niggles being reported , hopefully it's a one-off in my case! In the mean time, the Clever Dripper is getting plenty of use!


----------



## DavecUK

What part did the engineer replace?


----------



## Boxerman33

I'm waiting for a report from BB as the engineer turned up when i wasn't at home without booking in with me first, but thankfully i have builders working on my house and they let him in to look at it! (after calling me to check it was legit)

Arriving back Monday via Fedex, service and communication from Liam at BB has been excellent i must add!


----------



## MonkeyHarris

I received 2 parts from BB today. A new Gicar controller and a new microswitch.

Martin thinks the Gicar will hopefully solve both issues. 2nd issue is boiler sometimes continues to run after pulling a shot for upto a minute. I also have the microswitch if the Gicar doesn't solve that.

I've just replaced the Gicar and fired the Marax up....will report back shortly.... 🤞


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## MonkeyHarris

MonkeyHarris said:


> I received 2 parts from BB today. A new Gicar controller and a new microswitch.
> 
> Martin thinks the Gicar will hopefully solve both issues. 2nd issue is boiler sometimes continues to run after pulling a shot for upto a minute. I also have the microswitch if the Gicar doesn't solve that.
> 
> I've just replaced the Gicar and fired the Marax up....will report back shortly.... 🤞


 First go was a success. 2 shots and then steam...no loss of pressure.


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## fitzgerald91

Hej hej everbody,
just wanted to give you an update and share my recent experiences etc. So my MaraX first started with overheating during warmup, that somehow disappeared even though it's reaching higher pressures during warmup than I was used to see. Anyway, so far so good.
What was still weird was the constant pressure at 1,5bar and a bit above eventhough the machine was idle for a long time. My retailer send me a new temperature probe which I switched on friday.
To those of you who also changed it, did yours have some small bits of something on the sensor, too? It almost looks like it could be from the teflontape/isolationtape stuff on the thread... You can see it a bit in this video:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1F4h_kvLFuC5ljCvmFCG-q8k55NCYymlc/view?usp=sharing

So first I was hopeful that that might be causing the issues but unfortunately the machine behaved basically the same.
BUT: I was on temp setting 1 and changed to temp setting 0 and now I am observing a much more "normal" behaviour the last two days in regards to the steam pressure etc. Does that make any sense? Could it have to do with how the PID/Gicar box is working in the different temp settings?


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## jimbob1011

Hi -

I was having a similar issue of constant pressure at 1,5 bar when the machine is idle, and the pump priming every minute or so, resulting in the machine emptying the tank (when idle).

I was told the brew/steam priority switch is incorrectly specified in the MaraX manual and I should set it to 0 for brew priority. When set to 0 it appears to behave more normally (as per the previous post from *fitzgerald91*) - i.e. maintain a pressure of 1 bar when idle and not empty the water tank


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## fitzgerald91

jimbob1011 said:


> Hi -
> 
> I was having a similar issue of constant pressure at 1,5 bar when the machine is idle, and the pump priming every minute or so, resulting in the machine emptying the tank (when idle).
> 
> I was told the brew/steam priority switch is incorrectly specified in the MaraX manual and I should set it to 0 for brew priority. When set to 0 it appears to behave more normally (as per the previous post from *fitzgerald91*) - i.e. maintain a pressure of 1 bar when idle and not empty the water tank


 I also read it somewhere that for some people the brew/steam priority switch was „switched". Though what I meant wasn't changing the mode but just the temperature setting at the front of the machine. But I will change the brew/steam mode now and see how my machine behaves...

what kind of water are you using?


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## jimbob1011

jimbob1011 said:


> Hi -
> 
> I was having a similar issue of constant pressure at 1,5 bar when the machine is idle, and the pump priming every minute or so, resulting in the machine emptying the tank (when idle).
> 
> I was told the brew/steam priority switch is incorrectly specified in the MaraX manual and I should set it to 0 for brew priority. When set to 0 it appears to behave more normally (as per the previous post from *fitzgerald91*) - i.e. maintain a pressure of 1 bar when idle and not empty the water tank


 Thanks @fitzgerald91 - I realised I had posted under a thread regarding steam so I moved this to a new thread

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/59612-lelit-marax-coffee-steam-priority-switch-error/?do=embed

Will reply to your question there so it's easier if others have the same problem to see the responses


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## oko

Oh dear just digested all this. Had my BB MaraX couple of weeks now. Well I had it for ages but didn't unpack until I moved house. I was trying to steam this morning after 2 shots and pressure dropped to 0.6bar and it did a refill. Going to test the drawing water trick in a bit with a couple of blank pf cleaning pulls (just water). Really worried it'a going to be a naff one...


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## oko

So. Did 2 blank shots. Ran hot water to get it to do a force refill and waited pressure to go upto 1.5bar. Then 'frothed' 180ml of water. Pressure was steady at just under 1.25bar. Heated up fine in reasonable amount of time. Then tried to steam another 180ml. This time after about 35s pressure dropped but was held at 0.75bar still getting the water up to temperature in a reasonable respectable amount of time. Then after refill it shot back up to 1.5bar and was ready to steam some more...


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## djrustycans

oko said:


> So. Did 2 blank shots. Ran hot water to get it to do a force refill and waited pressure to go upto 1.5bar. Then 'frothed' 180ml of water. Pressure was steady at just under 1.25bar. Heated up fine in reasonable amount of time. Then tried to steam another 180ml. This time after about 35s pressure dropped but was held at 0.75bar still getting the water up to temperature in a reasonable respectable amount of time. Then after refill it shot back up to 1.5bar and was ready to steam some more...


 Doesn't sound good to me unfortunately... The pressure shouldn't be dropping down to .75 bar after steaming only a small amount. I was having this kind of issue previously when steaming quite large amounts (250ml) but there was also an issue with the machine.

.75 bar is not enough to get good texture even if the milk heats. I still get less than perfect performance from steam with my machine and there's no obvious pattern to it. Sometimes the wand gets a little screechy and you can guarantee the microfoam will be sub-standard when this happens. This is usually when there's a pressure drop and it completely spoils the milk.

Everything with my Mara X performs as you'd expect from first use after switch-on but inconsistencies arise when you leave the machine on for a little while and make another drink.


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## oko

djrustycans said:


> Doesn't sound good to me unfortunately... The pressure shouldn't be dropping down to .75 bar after steaming only a small amount. I was having this kind of issue previously when steaming quite large amounts (250ml) but there was also an issue with the machine.
> 
> .75 bar is not enough to get good texture even if the milk heats. I still get less than perfect performance from steam with my machine and there's no obvious pattern to it. Sometimes the wand gets a little screechy and you can guarantee the microfoam will be sub-standard when this happens. This is usually when there's a pressure drop and it completely spoils the milk.
> 
> Everything with my Mara X performs as you'd expect from first use after switch-on but inconsistencies arise when you leave the machine on for a little while and make another drink.


 Thanks... I guess I'll live with it for a bit and enjoy the espresso while I figure out the steam business. Probably end up selling it.


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## DavecUK

@oko Don't do that, I have been playing around with some revised firmware that's not out yet....

Worth hanging in there for a while....

I don't have a flash programmer for those particular Gicar boxes...but if people contribute, I can soon buy one!


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## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> @oko Don't do that, I have been playing around with some revised firmware that's not out yet....
> 
> Worth hanging in there for a while....
> 
> I don't have a flash programmer for those particular Gicar boxes...but if people contribute, I can soon buy one!


 Dave - would this firmware potentially solve the (fairly) erratic steam performance in BTP?!

Thanks.


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## DavecUK

@djrustycans I would hope so. I've been running it for 6 months.


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## MonkeyHarris

DavecUK said:


> @djrustycans I would hope so. I've been running it for 6 months.


 This is encouraging. BB have decided that my machine works as well as can be expected so if I need to steam milk I have to use HX mode now. My machine has had 2x new temp probes, a new Gicar, new micro switch and a new level probe but performance is still awful in BP mode.

Where did you get the firmware from Dave? Is there going to be a way for people to flash themselves? I have a spare Gicar now if that's any use.

happy to contribute to a flash programmer. What's the target?


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## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> My machine has had 2x new temp probes, a new Gicar, new micro switch and a new level probe but performance is still awful in BP mode.


 Is there anything more that could be wrong which would initiate a refund/replacement? I mean, would the Mara X have to basically walk itself to BB/Lelit and throw in the towel before they'd consider compensation for your nightmare?


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## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> @djrustycans I would hope so. I've been running it for 6 months.





MonkeyHarris said:


> This is encouraging. BB have decided that my machine works as well as can be expected so if I need to steam milk I have to use HX mode now. My machine has had 2x new temp probes, a new Gicar, new micro switch and a new level probe but performance is still awful in BP mode.
> 
> Where did you get the firmware from Dave? Is there going to be a way for people to flash themselves? I have a spare Gicar now if that's any use.
> 
> happy to contribute to a flash programmer. What's the target?


 Good question, will we be able to use this firmware without a masters in electronics/engineering and spending more dough?!


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## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Is there anything more that could be wrong which would initiate a refund/replacement? I mean, would the Mara X have to basically walk itself to BB/Lelit and throw in the towel before they'd consider compensation for your nightmare?


 I ended up changing most of these parts myself on their advice. Once they ran out of ideas they ignored me. Eventually they agreed to take another look at it. After having it for 2 weeks and not looking at it I called them and they immediately sent it back saying it was fine. I asked them prior to this to provide proof and they sent me a single YouTube video which was set as private so I can't view it. Despite about 15 attempts asking for them to make it public they're back to ignoring me again....they also blamed my thermometer so I got another one. Both work fine.

Really just want the whole thing over with so I have 3 options. 1/ accept it and use a workaround i.e HX mode for milk drinks. 2/ Fix it myself and try Lelit 3/ Call Barclaycard and let them resolve it....not sure I can be bothered with the last one as I'll end up with no machine.


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## djrustycans

MonkeyHarris said:


> I ended up changing most of these parts myself on their advice. Once they ran out of ideas they ignored me. Eventually they agreed to take another look at it. After having it for 2 weeks and not looking at it I called them and they immediately sent it back saying it was fine. I asked them prior to this to provide proof and they sent me a single YouTube video which was set as private so I can't view it. Despite about 15 attempts asking for them to make it public they're back to ignoring me again....they also blamed my thermometer so I got another one. Both work fine.
> 
> Really just want the whole thing over with so I have 3 options. 1/ accept it and use a workaround i.e HX mode for milk drinks. 2/ Fix it myself and try Lelit 3/ Call Barclaycard and let them resolve it....not sure I can be bothered with the last one as I'll end up with no machine.


 Honestly can't believe this. Absolutely shocking. Any regrets?! 
(Sorry, not making light of your predicament!)


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## MediumRoastSteam

MonkeyHarris said:


> Call Barclaycard and let them resolve it....


 Given this nightmare of yours and the fact that they don't seem to be accommodating... I'd go with the above.

But before that - Drop them an email and say that as you've seen no resolution to this problem, and there is an obvious problem with my machine, quote the customer's act and quote that you'll initiate a charge back through your credit card company unless this is resolved no later than <insert a date here>. Trust me, a chargeback is a nightmare for the actual company. It's can cost a lot of their time and money.

As for not having a machine - It's annoying, I know - but such is life. The experience you've been having is beyond ridiculous.


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## DavecUK

djrustycans said:


> Good question, will we be able to use this firmware without a masters in electronics/engineering and spending more dough?!


 I doubt anyone here would be able to flash it...it will be dependent on me getting the right programmer and people sending me the boxes. It's just an idea, there may be another way to resolve it...lets see what happens in the fulness of time. I would prefer that if people want to upgrade, they simply send the Gicar boxes to a retailer and buy an exchange, or something at a special price.


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## MonkeyHarris

djrustycans said:


> Honestly can't believe this. Absolutely shocking. Any regrets?!
> (Sorry, not making light of your predicament!)


 I regret buying this particular machine. I do like the Marax and would like to have one that works. If they would exchange it I'd happily have one but they refuse. I've obviously been unlucky. Martin for whatever reason has been very defensive the entire time and refused to accept there is an issue. I don't know why. I can only think he is expected to repair it and doesn't know how to. He has said it is 'acceptable'. My ability has been called into question the entire time, even though it worked perfectly for 2 weeks after the first repair and I can use it fine in HX mode. Plus I could steam better on my old Dualit from 20years ago.


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## MonkeyHarris

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Given this nightmare of yours and the fact that they don't seem to be accommodating... I'd go with the above.
> 
> But before that - Drop them an email and say that as you've seen no resolution to this problem, and there is an obvious problem with my machine, quote the customer's act and quote that you'll initiate a charge back through your credit card company unless this is resolved no later than <insert a date here>. Trust me, a chargeback is a nightmare for the actual company. It's can cost a lot of their time and money.
> 
> As for not having a machine - It's annoying, I know - but such is life. The experience you've been having is beyond ridiculous.


 Yes this is pretty much where I'm leaning. I'm going to make a bunch of drinks on it this weekend and create yet more video evidence then email them with the ultimatum.

Wondering if I should get another one or something else. Any ideas of an alternative. If not there are other vendors.


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## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> I doubt anyone here would be able to flash it...it will be dependent on me getting the right programmer and people sending me the boxes. It's just an idea, there may be another way to resolve it...lets see what happens in the fulness of time. I would prefer that if people want to upgrade, they simply send the Gicar boxes to a retailer and buy an exchange, or something at a special price.


 Thanks for your efforts Dave.


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## oko

I'd like to think updates on fw would be free or minimal. Selling stuff that's still in R&D for a grand is OK (apparently) to raise money, but charging for updates seems weird. Is it some random PLC language the logic is in ? I'd be interested in the developments. Decent espresso so


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## DavecUK

oko said:


> I'd like to think updates on fw would be free or minimal. Selling stuff that's still in R&D for a grand is OK (apparently) to raise money, but charging for updates seems weird. Is it some random PLC language the logic is in ? I'd be interested in the developments. Decent espresso so


 When an update involves replacement of a component, it's rather difficult to be free. Product are subject to continuous improvement and hardware, firmware etc.. may well be updated.

It's not a product in R&D, but if it's working can be improved, then why not. I think your confusing a specific machine that might have a problem (because most don't have any problems), with a separate issue of continuous improvement.

P.S. One of the reasons I often don't like to comment about things like this.


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## oko

Fair enough. I'm happy to help test stuff and provide feedback etc. I'll watch this space.


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## oko

Hi folks where was the bit that Lelit had replied to a forum member explaining what the machine does in terms of managing temps & pressures & steam. I remember reading it on here somewhere .. then lost it . Thanks


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## Dorian

Hi everyone, hope you are all enjoying a nice Sunday.

I ordered a Mara X a few days ago (finally ) I hope to receive it next week. Last night I couldn t sleep much and of course I had a good read of this thread...a bit scary since I have ordered the machine already but it seems that the steam issue can be easily resolved with a new temp sensor... thanks for the valuable info you have shared here!

I noticed that a few people mentioned they would like to know exactly how the machine cycles the steam boosts and what s the ratio of the algorithm.. I was having a look on reddit about this and stumbled across this guy who was able to connect the machine to a Raspberry Pi with a cheap cable and get live info on what it is going on inside the machine

link to the post:

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/hft5zv

from his post:




The best time to pull a shot is approx. 32-35 minutes after the machine is switched on - at this time, the temperature stabilises and stays at the target temp. As an example on PID Setting 1 (~94 degrees), the machine first hits the target temperature after 12-13 minutes (led still flashing), then it overshoots to ~100 degrees, before finally settling to the correct temperature around the 32-35 minute mark (it fluctuates).



Once you pull a shot, you have approximately 4 minutes to pull your next shot before it overshoots to ~99 degrees. Otherwise you have to wait anywhere from 15-20 minutes (since shot) before it stabilises.



Once you pull a shot, the steam target temperature shoots from 116 degrees to 136 degrees for 30 seconds, then 124 degrees for 1 minute. This seems to be the 'steam boost' mode. The actual steam temperature hits 124 degrees a little over 1 minute after you pull a shot, and this seems to be about 1.5 bar and a pretty good time to steam in my experience.


This is so very cool, the connection option opens a lot of opportunities 

Hope this helps!


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## oko

Thanks Dorian, useful infos.

@MonkeyHarris @djrustycans what was the ECM probe part no they fitted to sort out the steam issues ? Mine is definitely a bit iffy. If it ends up with auto fill mid steam it drops below 0.75bars. If I'm lucky, 1 shot 1 steam after about a min I watch the manometer. Pressure never gets to 1.5bar. It will be just above 1 when steaming. I've watched people's videos and pressure sits well near 1.5bar. I don't steam much, as I enjoy espresso but it's be nice if the machine worked better. Had guests at the weekend and was a bit naff.. (I'm on brew priority & medium temp settings)


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## MonkeyHarris

oko said:


> Thanks Dorian, useful infos.
> 
> @MonkeyHarris @djrustycans what was the ECM probe part no they fitted to sort out the steam issues ? Mine is definitely a bit iffy. If it ends up with auto fill mid steam it drops below 0.75bars. If I'm lucky, 1 shot 1 steam after about a min I watch the manometer. Pressure never gets to 1.5bar. It will be just above 1 when steaming. I've watched people's videos and pressure sits well near 1.5bar. I don't steam much, as I enjoy espresso but it's be nice if the machine worked better. Had guests at the weekend and was a bit naff.. (I'm on brew priority & medium temp settings)


 It's this one but it's out of stock at the moment

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-temperature-sensor-1-4.html

There's also a supposedly new and improved Marax one here but I have it and I think it's poor compared to the ECM one https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-temperature-probe.html


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## oko

Bit of an update. I love MaraX. So turns out it may have been my work flow that was causing steam issues. It's still in stock config. When switch on it does an auto fill. That's it. I don't take any water out to trigger another one etc anymore. I can pull two doubles, then just steam straight away (leave the cleaning for later). 
I also changed to a single hole steam tip and it's wild. Happy camper here


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## Dorian

I never had any issues with the machine actually, I had it for a couple of months now.

I don t make a lot of milk drinks but when I steam, I "wake up" the machine with a very short flush, and this starts the boost. Then I make coffee... after that the machine is at 1.5 bar and ready to steam... so basically I give it 2 boosts.

There s also a youtube video from Lelit Insider, they show the exact same process.


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## Dumlovesyou

MonkeyHarris said:


> Yes this is pretty much where I'm leaning. I'm going to make a bunch of drinks on it this weekend and create yet more video evidence then email them with the ultimatum.
> 
> Wondering if I should get another one or something else. Any ideas of an alternative. If not there are other vendors.


 How did it all end up? Was just thinking to buy a MaraX and stumbled upon your post. You could also leave a bad review. Right now marax has 5 stars on BB.


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## Enel

Do you find the steam DRY on Mara X even if not very powerful ?


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## chrisdddd

I had a similar steam performance issue with my mara x after owning it for a couple of months. It was getting really bad!

1. Steaming slowed down, I mean taking a few minutes!
2. 1.5 bar pressure reading on the dial after being warmed for hours and activated.
3. I always purge pre-post steaming milk.
4. I cleaned the steam wand using puly several times with no improvement.

It was pretty stupid but here is what made it work good as new again:

1. I unscrewed the steam wand tip (use latex gloves if it's hard to unscrew)
2. I could see no blockage and could see daylight though the 2 steam tip holes when held up to a light
3. I turned the steam on with the tip off and saw a LOT of pressure! (So those small holes actually regulate the pressure)
4. I took a bamboo skewer and pushed the spike through both holes in the tip to ensure they were fully clear, turns out they were not.
5. Now steaming takes 20-30 seconds instead of 2 minutes, it made a MASSIVE difference!


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## jonasy

I've noticed my parents MaraX is much better at steaming than ours. At home steam pressure rarely goes up to 1.5 bar (even with flushing) and it quickly drops to 0.7 bar. At my parents place it keeps the pressure up and steams the milk in seconds. No flushing needed.

Theirs is bought this year and mine last year so maybe something has changed in the technical design? I've also noticed it does that thing when it makes a sound and the brew pressure quickly ramps up much more frequently. Software Update perhaps?

I will definitely try the cleaning advice above, although I don't think it has ever steamed properly.


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## MonkeyHarris

jonasy said:


> I've noticed my parents MaraX is much better at steaming than ours. At home steam pressure rarely goes up to 1.5 bar (even with flushing) and it quickly drops to 0.7 bar. At my parents place it keeps the pressure up and steams the milk in seconds. No flushing needed.
> 
> Theirs is bought this year and mine last year so maybe something has changed in the technical design? I've also noticed it does that thing when it makes a sound and the brew pressure quickly ramps up much more frequently. Software Update perhaps?
> 
> I will definitely try the cleaning advice above, although I don't think it has ever steamed properly.


 Might be worth asking Lelit? It's the same as mine. Mine can't steam 150ml in coffee priority mode. In steam priority mode however it can steam large quantities forever . I've accepted it is a fault and moved on now as the retailer refused to accept there was problem (long story). I would be interested if there was a fix/upgrade though 😂


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## jonasy

Update - I eventually removed and cleaned the tip of the steam wand (tooth picker to properly clean the holes) and the machine is like new again!

I still think my parents machine holds steam pressure better but this is more than good enough for the two cappuccinos we are doing each morning.


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## hotCUPPA

MonkeyHarris said:


> My ability has been called into question the entire time...


What an infuriating thread, they told you to switch your milk brand and you ended up buying a new thermometer...bloody hell.

So what's the update on your story? Did you track down your 11 years Silvia and bought it back?😂


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## MvHR

Hi, I am having a similar issue with my mara x that I bought 3 months ago: milk frothing was super easy and gave great results, but suddenly since last weeks I get nothing but a few big bubbles. The steam pressure shows still at 1.5 and is consistent. I haven’t changed anything in my technique and cleaned everything. I am a bit clueless now…
I tried to take a video in case anybody can tell sth from watching it
Lelit Dampf


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## n863204

MvHR said:


> Hi, I am having a similar issue with my mara x that I bought 3 months ago: milk frothing was super easy and gave great results, but suddenly since last weeks I get nothing but a few big bubbles. The steam pressure shows still at 1.5 and is consistent. I haven’t changed anything in my technique and cleaned everything. I am a bit clueless now…
> I tried to take a video in case anybody can tell sth from watching it
> Lelit Dampf


clean the tip is ok


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