# Are most specialty coffee shops not that special?



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Time for a moan (sorry)

I'm back in London armed with my London's Best Coffee app excited to try out all these new offerings but so far I've been underwhelmed to say the least. Ok I've only been to 4 places so far in Battersea and Clapham. My gripe is the coffee doesn't seem to be that important of a feature. No options of beans, no tasting notes or roasting profiles, no info on the roasters and the staff I've asked seem to know very little about what they're serving although I'm sure they all know how to make pretty patterns with the milk. It seems like all these "specialty" coffee shops aren't that special. Also £2.50 for an espresso is taking the p

Same thing happened to Gastro Pubs 15 years ago. A great concept was ruined by too many opening and thinking shabby chic furniture was all they needed for success.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Separating the wheat from chaff in London can be bit of an effort, I usually also crosscheck guides like London's best coffee against this forum and blogs such as Brian's. It's also worth reading the guide to see what roasters and equipment the shop is working with, this can also give you an idea of how speciality they're aspiring to be at least. In London I think £2.50 for a decent espresso is fair enough, running a cafe isn't cheap.

To be honest though I don't trust guidebooks or apps that much, the South West coffee guide has tonnes of awful cafes in it who paid to be in.

I was quite impressed with fields when I was in Clapham last. Mlk in balham isn't half bad either. But if you want to venture further most of the best options are north of the river.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

You're right unoll and I don't mind paying £2.5 for an espresso if it's good. I'm sure running a coffee shop isn't cheap and that's probably why a lot of them are more food places that happen to have a Marzocco, Mythos and use Square Mile or other well known beans. It just feels like it's all a bit of a cliche.

I will be heading north of the river so any good recommendations?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Few Points .

1. Did the coffee taste alright ?

2. My guess is the proportion of espresso drinker out there for most cafe's is minuscule btw , not sure what point I am making here but I guess most places are used to serving milk drinks and milk hides alot of sins

3. Depends in the cafe and the culture I guess, but alot of these guys will be on National Living Wage , if the culture aint there then the knowledge wont be .

4. Some places are just cafe's that serve coffee , and most people are just happy with that .

In London £2.50 for an espresso seems reasonable for a good cup

I don't always expect a barista to be as passionate or knowledgeable as I think I am







. For some it's a " vocation " for others a job.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

@Nopapercup , check out the London's best coffee thread on here, but if you only go to one coffee shop in London it has to be Prufrock. You won't regret it.


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## mcrmfc (Sep 17, 2016)

Nopapercup said:


> You're right unoll and I don't mind paying £2.5 for an espresso if it's good. I'm sure running a coffee shop isn't cheap and that's probably why a lot of them are more food places that happen to have a Marzocco, Mythos and use Square Mile or other well known beans. It just feels like it's all a bit of a cliche.
> 
> I will be heading north of the river so any good recommendations?


Prufrock, New Black, Coffeeworks Project, Gentlemen Baristas (SE1 but I think they have a new one north of the river). These are all pretty much 100% coffee focused.

But you do have a good point, at least 2/3 so called specialty shops are a waste of time and just riding the wave.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Agree with this post that it can be hit and miss. I think it can be especially underwhelming with espresso based drinks as the spro bean is typically quite a safe middle of the road offering. Understandable I guess but not too much to get excited about. Something on brew is normally a better bet, but that is highly staff dependent on quality of output.


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

Speciality is super broad though. Remember speciality just refers to their take on quality, and using coffee from a roaster that claims to be artisan or specialty - so its not really their fault. Plus being in the industry myself the overheads are super high (especially in London) and finding good baristas who know about coffee is a LOT harder than you can imagine...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Sadly not all 3rd wave shops deliver - those that do should be cherished - those that don't should be avoided.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Never got where artisan comes into this ...

"A worker in a skilled trade, especially one that involves making things by hand.'street markets where local artisans display handwoven textiles, painted ceramics, and leather goods'"

Nope.....

of food or drink made in a traditional or non-mechanized way using high-quality ingredients.

Nope - unless we are doing it with stick and stones and a pot


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Put yourself in the Barista's shoes.

It takes a lot of effort to get the lumberjack clothes right, grow a beard, maintain a silly haircut, pierce various parts of your anatomy, show ironic tattoos, maintain a "too cool to speak to the likes of you" aloofness. Adopt just the right blend of the aforementioned to show your individuality.

And you expect him to make good coffee too?


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

I can only imagine how tight the margins are on a coffee shop especially in London and training or getting good baristas I'm sure isn't easy. I am also one of the rare breed of espresso drinkers but you think the roasters would want their product displayed a bit more. It doesn't take much to have a board saying this is our coffee, it comes from this country and expect notes of....

As someone mentioned earlier staff are probably paid poorly but if they're not interested in what they're doing they're in the wrong job and where badly recruited. They don't need to know a lot about coffee but they should at least have an enthusiasm to learn. Poor pay will eventually just make them leave for something else but they can leave having gained a wealth of knowledge. When I left uni and moved to London I worked for Oddbins for 6 months. I joined knowing very little about wine but left with that wealth of knowledge.


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## forzamb (Nov 25, 2015)

£2.50 reasonable for an espresso? Glad I don't live in London.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

It isn't just a London phenomenon. We've had two or three coffee shops open with good intentions and good coffee only to fall by the wayside in a month or two with too hot flat whites etc. I guess they cater to the lowest common denominator...


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Rob666 said:


> It isn't just a London phenomenon. We've had two or three coffee shops open with good intentions and good coffee only to fall by the wayside in a month or two with too hot flat whites etc. I guess they cater to the lowest common denominator...


If they make money and the masses like it then good for them. They're just becoming the new version of Costa, Starbucks and Nero but with better coffee.

My assumption not having been in London for a while is all these places would be good (misguided on my part). I guess it will make when found the good ones that much better.


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## NashNash (Sep 2, 2016)

I just got back from NY and visited two 'third wave' shops there. One had $15k worth of gear and gave me a bitter cup. I produce better on my Silvia. The other served me a regular latte in a humongous cup - sigh.

Luckily for me, 'It all started here' is my local, and Ill be visiting again this weekend.


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## NashNash (Sep 2, 2016)

BTW. Coffee costs $4.75 to $5 a cup in Manhattan.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

there's plenty of good places which sell a variety of beans and brews, you just have to do a bit more work to find them out.

good to check on here and/or ask if you're going to a specific location, there's a lot of good knowledge of where's good.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Phobic said:


> there's plenty of good places which sell a variety of beans and brews, you just have to do a bit more work to find them out.
> 
> good to check on here and/or ask if you're going to a specific location, there's a lot of good knowledge of where's good.


There are, just in London with so many popping up it's hard finding the good ones. I've also been trying to find a good coffee near my house as I don't have my machine and grinder with me. I have found good espresso to be fair just nothing memorable. The best places seem to be in Soho and the East End which unless I'm going over there is a bit of a trek just for an espresso. I'm off to Notting Hill tomorrow and the top rated place on London's Best Coffee is on Portobello so I'll check that out.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Whoo Hoo!! Found a great coffee shop. I was in Notting Hill this afternoon and the top rated place on London's Best Coffee app is there right at the top of Portobello called Civilian Coffee. They use Dark Arts Coffee and today's offering was Motel Blues from Ethiopia. Best coffee I've had in a long time and the barista who served me Doug was a really nice guy who was more than happy to indulge my geekish coffee obsession.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Nopapercup said:


> There are, just in London with so many popping up it's hard finding the good ones. I've also been trying to find a good coffee near my house as I don't have my machine and grinder with me. I have found good espresso to be fair just nothing memorable. The best places seem to be in Soho and the East End which unless I'm going over there is a bit of a trek just for an espresso. I'm off to Notting Hill tomorrow and the top rated place on London's Best Coffee is on Portobello so I'll check that out.


if you post on here in the london thread and ask about specific locations lots of people will be able to recommend something.

I've had some of my best cups from places that people have suggested on here


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

£2.50 for an espresso isn't bad for London at all.. It doesn't really matter what the drink is, it's the money the business needs for a customer to pay towards 8 staff, rent, rates, insurance, accountancy, expensive equipment and such....


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Stevie said:


> £2.50 for an espresso isn't bad for London at all.. It doesn't really matter what the drink is, it's the money the business needs for a customer to pay towards 8 staff, rent, rates, insurance, accountancy, expensive equipment and such....


£2.50 is the most expensive espresso I've come across so far. They are ranging from £1.8-£2.50. So far the most expensive hasn't been the best but I also don't know how other drinks like flat whites compare


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I've noticed that flat white seems to be disproportionately expensive compared to a cappuccino or latte, (in some places) and wonder if it's a hipster tax? Other places charge the same for all milk drinks and maybe 50-70p less for straight espresso (£1.8-2.2).

My best flat whites have been from London Grind (made by Scotford of this parish) and Origin in East London. Should probably have had espresso but I have to be in the mood. If I'm in a café with someone having a latte (the Hotmetalette), I want something that will last more than 30 seconds!


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## Grimley (Jan 18, 2015)

mcrmfc said:


> New Black. These are all pretty much 100% coffee focused.


You could have fooled me. I went in there earlier in the year for my usual flat white & it was easily the worst flat white I've drunk in London, I must've been to getting on for 20 or so of London's most famous Artisan Coffee shops over the last 3 years. £3.20 which was the most expensive as well. Based on my experience I wouldn't give them another chance as I'm certain I would not repeat that experience.

I'll Echo @unoll comment about Prufrock.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> I've noticed that flat white seems to be disproportionately expensive compared to a cappuccino or latte, (in some places) and wonder if it's a hipster tax? Other places charge the same for all milk drinks and maybe 50-70p less for straight espresso (£1.8-2.2).
> 
> My best flat whites have been from London Grind (made by Scotford of this parish) and Origin in East London. Should probably have had espresso but I have to be in the mood. *If I'm in a café with someone having a latte (the Hotmetalette), I want something that will last more than 30 seconds!*


She used those very same words.............................


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

LOL! You are a filthmonger! Milky milky.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> LOL! You are a filthmonger!!!


I refer my learned friend to my previous reply.............



Drewster said:


> She used those very same words.............................


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## mcrmfc (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimley said:


> You could have fooled me. I went in there earlier in the year for my usual flat white & it was easily the worst flat white I've drunk in London, I must've been to getting on for 20 or so of London's most famous Artisan Coffee shops over the last 3 years. £3.20 which was the most expensive as well. Based on my experience I wouldn't give them another chance as I'm certain I would not repeat that experience.
> 
> I'll Echo @unoll comment about Prufrock.


Yes this is what lots of people reported early doors...but they have changed and listened to criticism...that's ok isn't it?

Not too many places you can try the likes of Verve or Wendelboe in London...


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## Grimley (Jan 18, 2015)

mcrmfc said:


> Yes this is what lots of people reported early doors...but they have changed and listened to criticism...that's ok isn't it?
> 
> Not too many places you can try the likes of Verve or Wendelboe in London...


 I'm not willing to give them another go despite them changing, once bitten twice shy. I feel I've barely scratched the surface of London's Coffee Scene & I want to try other places rather than go back to places I've visited before.


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## coffeefan1 (Jun 24, 2017)

i would say the majority of them are special from my experience, most taste great.


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## Benjijames28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Even in Sheffield there seems to be a few fashionable coffee shops popping up. One of them is called steam yard. They serve square mile coffee (brewed very well), and sell cronut and donuts bought in from a local bakery that makes them in bulk. It's all very trendy in there. Yummy mummies and students seem to love it, and to be honest I think it's pretty decent.

Another is called captain's cup. I went once, it was lifeless and the coffee terrible. I didn't even drink it. They sell the same donuts etc... As the other place. Feels like a copycat.

Then we are lucky to have a place called upshot espresso, proper hipster place. The type of place where a lot of the occupant's are scared tonfart in case they contribute to global warming. Amazing coffee tho, and brilliant staff. These are the best in Sheffield for coffee. They also make their own donuts, fresh on Fridays, leagues ahead of the competition.

And finally my most regular haunt... Foundry coffee roasters. We all know this company. Their cafe is very modern, not hipster at all. They are friendly and make amazing coffee and sandwiches. Really can't beat it. The best thing about this place is the consistency of the coffee.

I'm.sure there's others that are good and some bad. But considering the size of Sheffield i feel spoilt for choice. Just wish I didn't have to go into the city centre to find one.


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## Stevie (Nov 18, 2015)

hotmetal said:


> I've noticed that flat white seems to be disproportionately expensive compared to a cappuccino or latte, (in some places) and wonder if it's a hipster tax? Other places charge the same for all milk drinks and maybe 50-70p less for straight espresso (£1.8-2.2).
> 
> My best flat whites have been from London Grind (made by Scotford of this parish) and Origin in East London. Should probably have had espresso but I have to be in the mood. If I'm in a café with someone having a latte (the Hotmetalette), I want something that will last more than 30 seconds!


Its because a LOT of coffee shops still use single shots, so when they do a flat white and use a double they have to charge more. That is generally why it can cost more.

The more hipster approach is charging the same for any drink that involves steaming milk... making a flat white expensive for the fact it has half the milk of a latte


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Ah ok. I must admit I assumed that flat whites, cappuccino and latte were all made with a full basket. Whenever we go for coffee, I have to explain at great length that SWMBO wants a latte made with '1 shot, in other words half a double basket. ....' (she likes it milky!)


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Norvin said:


> Put yourself in the Barista's shoes.
> 
> It takes a lot of effort to get the lumberjack clothes right, grow a beard, maintain a silly haircut, pierce various parts of your anatomy, show ironic tattoos, maintain a "too cool to speak to the likes of you" aloofness. Adopt just the right blend of the aforementioned to show your individuality.
> 
> And you expect him to make good coffee too?


This statement is everything that is wrong with the view on specialty coffee. Not all of us are the pretentious plaid-clad arses that the Guardian or a silly McDonald's advert has told you we are.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

Can anyone suggest me a coffee shop in Chester or the surrounding area (willing to travel to Liverpool or Manchester or Shropshire etc if it is REALLY good) with parking nearby... I want to taste what a "God shot" of espresso is and also a good latte to compare against my currently crap home setup. Thank you.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

thesmileyone said:


> Can anyone suggest me a coffee shop in Chester or the surrounding area (willing to travel to Liverpool or Manchester or Shropshire etc if it is REALLY good) with parking nearby... I want to taste what a "God shot" of espresso is and also a good latte to compare against my currently crap home setup. Thank you.


Don't think there's much going on in Chester. In Liverpool there's a bunch of places to go, check out Brian's coffee spot or search the threads on here. My fave is Bold Street coffee.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Chester is a desert - there's a place on upper Bridge St which is OK-ish.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

What about Little Yellow Pig in Hoole, Chester...no one been?


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## YerbaMate170 (Jun 15, 2015)

Haven't been following this thread so will probably say what's already been said a million times, but I kind of agree with the OP - when I started my coffee adventures I must have visited 15-20 highly rated places in London and too many of them were underwhelming.

I think the biggest issue is consistency and this largely comes from the staff - busy London cafes are unlikely to have just one or two baristas and there's just no way every barista will be as skilled and careful about consistency for each and every shot, as the other.

In fact, thinking of cafes where I regularly do get good shots, many are smaller places with a couple of regular staff. Then again... Coffee Collective in Copenhagen is an example that doesn't fit this trend - constant queues, shot after shot pulled for hours and hours... And yet I consistently had perfect shots.

EDIT: another place is the Colombian Coffee stand in Borough Market that I mention all the time on here, so under-rated, some of the best espressos I've ever had.


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## MrBaozi (May 11, 2017)

YerbaMate170 said:


> I think the biggest issue is consistency and this largely comes from the staff - busy London cafes are unlikely to have just one or two baristas and there's just no way every barista will be as skilled and careful about consistency for each and every shot, as the other.


Also I would also say people in London are generally impatient especially around the city where many artisan coffee shops are around. Unfortunately the uneducated people still think you can just press a button and a perfect coffee will come out.

One time I was in Nude and had to wait around 15 minutes for my espresso. They had two different baristas sink over 10 shots to get it to an acceptable level. Myself I appreciated they didn't want to give me a bad espresso but could see many other people would get fairly annoyed and possibly would walk out if they had to wait that long for a coffee.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

MrBaozi said:


> Also I would also say people in London are generally impatient especially around the city where many artisan coffee shops are around. Unfortunately the uneducated people still think you can just press a button and a perfect coffee will come out.
> 
> One time I was in Nude and had to wait around 15 minutes for my espresso. They had two different baristas sink over 10 shots to get it to an acceptable level. Myself I appreciated they didn't want to give me a bad espresso but could see many other people would get fairly annoyed and possibly would walk out if they had to wait that long for a coffee.


Doesn't sound like they had their beans dialled in if they had to make 10 shots to get 1 good. 15 minutes is too long to wait for an espresso unless you're sitting in and putting your feet up for a while but that can't be the norm. Sounds like Nude where having an off moment.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

What do you guys think defines a specialty coffee shop?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

SO espresso - ideally choice of more than one. Choice of pour over methods.

knowledgeably served by a bearded hipster replete with earing(s) and or additional piercings and body art.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

At least one EK43 for single dosing pour over coffee. Mythos 1 temp controlled grinder for espresso and something like a Arduino Black Eagle espresso machine offering gravitmetric espresso shot measurement.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> At least one EK43 for single dosing pour over coffee. Mythos 1 temp controlled grinder for espresso and something like a Arduino Black Eagle espresso machine offering gravitmetric espresso shot measurement.


I once asked a barista at coffeeworks project in Angel if they make espressos on the EK and he evidently had no idea what I was talking about. To be a barista in a busy and trendy cafe and not know what an EK grinder is (the grinder was about 15cm away from where he was making pretty latte art) is pretty bad imo. Not a knock on coffeeworks as it's a great cafe, this was just a particularly poor specimen of barista.


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## unoll (Jan 22, 2014)

Elcee said:


> What do you guys think defines a specialty coffee shop?


A place that serves high quality coffee, consistently prepared and served in ways that mean you can appreciate the flavours and characteristics that make it "special".


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## MrBaozi (May 11, 2017)

Nopapercup said:


> Doesn't sound like they had their beans dialled in if they had to make 10 shots to get 1 good. 15 minutes is too long to wait for an espresso unless you're sitting in and putting your feet up for a while but that can't be the norm. Sounds like Nude where having an off moment.


Definitely not the norm as I go in there quite regularly. Just one of those days.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Elcee said:


> What do you guys think defines a specialty coffee shop?


A shop that serves specialty coffee.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> At least one EK43 for single dosing pour over coffee. Mythos 1 temp controlled grinder for espresso and something like a Arduino Black Eagle espresso machine offering gravitmetric espresso shot measurement.


Utter tosh.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Scotford said:


> A shop that serves specialty coffee.


and cares about consistency in high quality of their products


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

Stanic said:


> and cares about consistency in high quality of their products


The only thing that separates a specialty shop and a regular shop is the 'specialty' of the product sold.


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