# Noob needing some dialing in advice



## Dr. Yoshimi Tokui (Mar 27, 2020)

Hello there,

I am a newbie in this espresso world, but have ploughed through a lot of articles and YouTube videos to make sure that I was well prepared for my Sage The Bambino. Alas, I am still struggling with dialing in. And that is in the term of not being able to get any decent coffee out of the machine yet. Always too bitter and undrinkable. Have tried changing beans, but with nothing to show for it. So I need some advice on how to dial in properly.

*Setup:* Sage Bambino + Smart Grinder Pro. And of course only using single wall filter baskets. Using a distributor and a Calibrated Flat tamper, just so that I have as few variables as possible. The wife also needs to learn this further down the road, so I want to make the setup as problem-free as possible, not only for myself, but also so that I can pass the learnings on without too much trouble.

*What I have tried:*
Now, I really didn't care much about the Bambino's instructions, since I heard everywhere that the amount of time to finish after first drip should land between 20-30 seconds. And I thought that it sounded a tad silly that I should base everything on the timing before the first drip. Also, trying with the instructions from the manual using the precision trimming tool seemed to require a great amount of coffee (18-20+ grams for a double-shot) just to reach the correct level in the portafilter. I found the method highly uncertain.

So I went for the other method. Tried same beans, same amount of grams (16) for a double-shot. Then adjusted the grind after timing the percolation. But the machine just squeezes everything out in circa 17-20 seconds total (before + after first drip) no matter what I do, so I am never getting any good results. I know that I can adjust the shot volume, but that will require me to purchase a small scale that I can put on the bambino, or the like, right? So that I can control the amount out as well as the amount in so to speak? Is that the way to go, or is there something I have totally missed? What is the approach here?

What I don't understand is, that it all seemed rather simple when reading the manual, but I simply cannot get any good results using that method. If anyone have had good results with that I'd like to know as well.

Cheers!


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

What beans are you using and when were they roasted?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Dr. Yoshimi Tokui said:


> *What I have tried:*
> Now, I really didn't care much about the Bambino's instructions, since I heard everywhere that the amount of time to finish after first drip should land between 20-30 seconds. And I thought that it sounded a tad silly that I should base everything on the timing before the first drip. Also, trying with the instructions from the manual using the precision trimming tool seemed to require a great amount of coffee (18-20+ grams for a double-shot) just to reach the correct level in the portafilter. I found the method highly uncertain.
> 
> So I went for the other method. Tried same beans, same amount of grams (16) for a double-shot. Then adjusted the grind after timing the percolation. But the machine just squeezes everything out in circa 17-20 seconds total (before + after first drip) no matter what I do, so I am never getting any good results.


 Ok....not sure why you think it's silly to time before the first drip but whatever.

Depends on the type of shot you are trying to produce really. Some people produce quick shots to highlight acidity. You might pull a short or long ratio. It's a matter of personal preference. Personally I prefer balanced shots and tend to extract beyond 30 seconds, typically between 40-50 seconds, and sometimes longer if profiling.

I assume you're grinding as fine as possible and the coffee is still gushing out in 17-20 seconds? If so you can increase your dose to 18-20g (as you say that is at the correct level in the portafilter why are you not using that much?). What do you mean you found the method "highly uncertain"? The age of the beans is important. They need to be fresh. If you're using a light roast you might well find increasing your dose is the only option to slow the shot down.


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## Dr. Yoshimi Tokui (Mar 27, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> What beans are you using and when were they roasted?


 *I am appreciating your answers, thank you!* I am testing an off-the shelf arabica from Peru. medium but probably not a fresh roast. But shouldn't I be able to just get a decent balance no matter what bean I use? I also tried three other variants, but with the same very bitter, undrinkable result.



Rob1 said:


> Ok....not sure why you think it's silly to time before the first drip but whatever.


 Everywhere I looked, nobody mentioned anything except after the first drip, so that's why I found it silly. But again, I'm new at this, so I have been presumptuous there I guess.



> Depends on the type of shot you are trying to produce really. Some people produce quick shots to highlight acidity. You might pull a short or long ratio. It's a matter of personal preference. Personally I prefer balanced shots and tend to extract beyond 30 seconds, typically between 40-50 seconds, and sometimes longer if profiling.


 I'm trying for a well balanced shot. But I cannot for the life get more than 20 seconds out of that machine. And the manual says that if it is beyond 13 seconds before first drip, then I am over extracting.



> I assume you're grinding as fine as possible and the coffee is still gushing out in 17-20 seconds? If so you can increase your dose to 18-20g (as you say that is at the correct level in the portafilter why are you not using that much?). What do you mean you found the method "highly uncertain"?


 It was the fact that just counting seconds before the first drip, going for exactly 8-12 seconds (recommended) before first drip, putting in the same amount of coffee, no matter the grind which the manual suggests, seems to me like it could go all over the place? I also tried a finer grind, but then almost no coffee came out, and again with a bad result, since I cannot go beyond 20-ish seconds.

But as I said, I need some kind of approach. Should I start with 16 grams, or the (in the manual) suggested amount in the percolator, and then just adjust the grind? And what about I'm only capable of getting 20 seconds out? Should I begin messing around with the shot volume? Measuring what comes out? Or is it just the fact that I need to find some fresh beans?

Cheers!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

> *I am appreciating your answers, thank you!* I am testing an off-the shelf arabica from Peru. medium but probably not a fresh roast. But shouldn't I be able to just get a decent balance no matter what bean I use? I also tried three other variants, but with the same very bitter, undrinkable result.


 No they need to be freshly roasted really and also good quality. Not all arabica is equal. If the beans are cheap they're cheap for a reason. Do you have temperature control with the machine or is it pre-set and can you check and alter pressure?



> And the manual says that if it is beyond 13 seconds before first drip, then I am over extracting.


 Nonsense. Well not necessarily but the manual has no way of knowing whether or not you're over extracting.



> It was the fact that just counting seconds before the first drip, going for exactly 8-12 seconds (recommended) before first drip, putting in the same amount of coffee, no matter the grind which the manual suggests, seems to me like it could go all over the place? I also tried a finer grind, but then almost no coffee came out, and again with a bad result, since I cannot go beyond 20-ish seconds.


 The manual doesn't seem to make any sense. It really tells you to put the same amount of coffee in every time regardless of grind setting? They might be talking quantity rather than weight, as in fill the basket to a certain height and brew based on whatever weight that happens to be. It wouldn't be the way I'd do it. What weight out are you getting -- as in weight of the espresso shot? If you grind one notch finer from a 20 second shot you end up choking the machine and get nothing out? What do you mean you can't go beyond 20 seconds....as in the pump just cuts out?



> But as I said, I need some kind of approach. Should I start with 16 grams, or the (in the manual) suggested amount in the percolator, and then just adjust the grind? And what about I'm only capable of getting 20 seconds out? Should I begin messing around with the shot volume? Measuring what comes out? Or is it just the fact that I need to find some fresh beans?


 I think I understand now. You're pressing a button and the pump runs for 20 seconds. Yes you need to alter that or just use a manual mode. You should dose as much as you can get in the basket without the puck pressing against the shower screen. Dose will depend on grind and density of the coffee. Sometimes you might fit 20g, sometimes 18g sometimes 16g. Yes you likely need to some good fresh beans from a decent roaster. You should weight you shot out and weight beans in and brew to a weight. Starting point is usually 1:2 (e.g. 20g coffee to 40g espresso) but you can adjust from there based on taste and/or alter grind. Altering grind and keeping weight inut the same means altering time.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Bingo, as above. 
Get some freshly roasted (not too fresh!) decent beans and try again.

Sorry, but espresso is in for a penny in for a million pounds. You can't skimp it!


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## Dalerst (Jan 22, 2020)

Very good advice from @Rob1 ?? following this will help you achieve a perfect shot, but it will take time.


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## Dr. Yoshimi Tokui (Mar 27, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> I think I understand now. You're pressing a button and the pump runs for 20 seconds. Yes you need to alter that or just use a manual mode. You should dose as much as you can get in the basket without the puck pressing against the shower screen. Dose will depend on grind and density of the coffee. Sometimes you might fit 20g, sometimes 18g sometimes 16g. Yes you likely need to some good fresh beans from a decent roaster. You should weight you shot out and weight beans in and brew to a weight. Starting point is usually 1:2 (e.g. 20g coffee to 40g espresso) but you can adjust from there based on taste and/or alter grind. Altering grind and keeping weight inut the same means altering time.


 Great advice. Thank you! I will definitely try your approach. And yes the whole "silliness" I got from the user's manual is exactly that it seems like it is a "one-size-fits-all" approach. Although temperature and pressure is pre set (also why I chose that machine to begin with because I'm new to this), I still figured it sounded a tad too "easy".

Thank you again! Much appreciated! ?


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