# Types of basket - extractions and yield



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

During the course of a visit from Patrick yesterday ( all round good guy and my l1 maintenance man)

We started refracting espresso shots using different baskets...

Over a couple of shots figures indicated that same dose ,output coffee in say a 20g vst were producing significantly different TDS readings to other baskets . ( couple of shots not enough to publish figures in any meaningful way )

Id like to do more tests over coming weeks and try and make it fair and comparable.

So what would be the comparable ims basket to a 20g vst basket for starters, what other baskets might be worth looking at .

What conditions should I set..

Same coffee, dose, pre infusion , output? What else ?

Nb - if refractometry and TDS isn't your thing I get that . It can be a real turn off for a lot of people , so if it bores you then please just pass this thread by on the time line and smile , as I'd rather this be a constructive thread , than potentially then into

" I don't need martin and a machine to tell what is good or tastes better "

I agree you don't btw , I'm just interested in these things and perhaps other people are too .

Cheers !


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

For us numptys, can you explain TDS please Boots?


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I guess the 18-22g IMS?

Same coffee and dose certainly.

Will be interesting!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> For us numptys, can you explain TDS please Boots?


Yep good point froggy , need to rethink first post , too much assumed knowledge and jargon.....

Gimme a minute .....

Mark ?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> For us numptys, can you explain TDS please Boots?


Total dissolved solids - measure of the strength of brewed coffee. Needs to be compared to the brewed weight of coffee to produce an 'extraction yield' in percentage terms. An extraction yield for espresso is in the ballpark of 18-20% ideally. Above 20%, shots taste bitter due to over extraction of the fines present in the grind. That said, it is possible, with some grinders, to get above 22% without a corresponding increase in bitterness.


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I dont want to take this off topic, but what kind of device would you use?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> I dont want to take this off topic, but what kind of device would you use?


This with the pertinent software , been around for a while

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/vst-refractometer-bundle


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> I dont want to take this off topic, but what kind of device would you use?


To measure TDS? - a refractometer. VST make a custom one for coffee and espresso - not cheap by any means but really useful.


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> This with the pertinent software , been around for a while
> 
> http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/vst-refractometer-bundle


Ouch!

Nice bit of kit, but not sure i would get that past wifey.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> This with the pertinent software , been around for a while
> 
> http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/vst-refractometer-bundle


Not sure the workable software to measure coffee/espresso TDS is in this link to the Apple Store. Think it's just a version to measure water TDS - you have to buy the coffee/espresso software on top.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Total dissolved solids - measure of the strength of brewed coffee. Needs to be compared to the brewed weight of coffee to produce an 'extraction yield' in percentage terms. An extraction yield for espresso is in the ballpark of 18-20% ideally. Above 20%, shots taste bitter due to over extraction of the fines present in the grind. That said, it is possible, with some grinders, to get above 22% without a corresponding increase in bitterness.


Ive had the EK with a 20g VST up to 23/24% and no bitterness. Athough it wasn't espresso either , more a mega mega lung


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway back to baskets etc rather than gridners

Is this worth pursuing , with what baskets , and what conditions ?


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I would be interested to follow this...

Guess the best starting point would be same bean, grind, weight in/out.

Time of the year might not help though, with the humidity?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> I would be interested to follow this...
> 
> Guess the best starting point would be same bean, grind, weight in/out.
> 
> Time of the year might not help though, with the humidity?


If pulled and prepped back to back humidity might not be such an issue

Would need to pull at same place on pstat each time on the lever

Higher temp equal faster extraction


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I would say that if you want to draw a conclusion from this then you would do something along the lines of

Baskets

VST

IMS

LM?

Stock

Coffee

Same Dose

Grind Tweaked to give the same brew ratio for each basket

Prep/Brew

Same brew ratio

Same temp

Same tamp

Same pre-infusion

Repeat 5 times exactly and then take averages discounting any wild variances within the results for each basket. Average at least three of the results. Declare the winner and await the onslaught of people who disagree.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Getting the same output can be challenging for espresso as it's second guessing where the scales will end to some degree.


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You can get it to within 0.1g though yes?


----------



## c_squared (Jun 26, 2013)

I guess it's the lag time of the scales that could complicate things rather than the accuracy of the scales themselves. Anyway, this is all very geeky, maybe that's why I'm interested!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> You can get it to within 0.1g though yes?


Yep did the other day , more by luck than skill I think









Might run the tests at cafe too with a volumetric Machine and a mazzer

Won't be able to compare extraction levels to the ek

But would able to compare extractions levels of the baskets side by side too

And at the same time see what a robur does with the same coffee ...


----------



## Bolta (May 11, 2014)

I have used an 18 g VST basket but have recently switched to the Reneka micro sieve. Unfortunately, they make only one size of basket limited to about 17 g. Quite a unique design that might reveal some interesting results.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Bolta said:


> I have used an 18 g VST basket but have recently switched to the Reneka micro sieve. Unfortunately, they make only one size of basket limited to about 17 g. Quite a unique design that might reveal some interesting results.


Argghhhhh, I meant to sort some of these out and it's slipped my mind .

I thought there's were max dose of 16g ....

I'll hunt down the thread I started and see if people still want them or not


----------



## stub24 (Sep 22, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Total dissolved solids - measure of the strength of brewed coffee. Needs to be compared to the brewed weight of coffee to produce an 'extraction yield' in percentage terms. An extraction yield for espresso is in the ballpark of 18-20% ideally. Above 20%, shots taste bitter due to over extraction of the fines present in the grind. That said, it is possible, with some grinders, to get above 22% without a corresponding increase in bitterness.


Just a quick qestion regarding the TDS measurements, could you just evapourate the water in a drying oven and measure the mass difference to provide a rough TDS or are some of the dissolved solids volatile and would therefore evapourate with the water at elevated temperatures? Thinking of a cheap way of measuring TDS without spending money on a refractometer.

Stuart


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

stub24 said:


> Just a quick qestion regarding the TDS measurements, could you just evapourate the water in a drying oven and measure the mass difference to provide a rough TDS or are some of the dissolved solids volatile and would therefore evapourate with the water at elevated temperatures? Thinking of a cheap way of measuring TDS without spending money on a refractometer.
> 
> Stuart


You are talking milligrams in this case, so this method would be very hard to measure accurately. It is possible though as far as I understand it.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

stub24 said:


> Just a quick qestion regarding the TDS measurements, could you just evapourate the water in a drying oven and measure the mass difference to provide a rough TDS or are some of the dissolved solids volatile and would therefore evapourate with the water at elevated temperatures? Thinking of a cheap way of measuring TDS without spending money on a refractometer.
> 
> Stuart


This is dehydration and is the original method for determining extraction yield. It is possible, but time consuming & you need very accurate scales & protocol. When you are done, you have a TDS reading, but still need to establish how that relates to extraction yield...there are non-obvious pitfalls in doing this. You also need to adequately filter the espresso samples prior to dehydration.


----------



## stub24 (Sep 22, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> You are talking milligrams in this case, so this method would be very hard to measure accurately. It is possible though as far as I understand it.


Good point, but just a quick calc would suggest that there should be 3 g of solids when using 15 g of coffee for an extraction yield of 20%. Rough estimate of a 1% error in extraction yield if using a 0.1g scale. My be useful for a rough indication.


----------



## stub24 (Sep 22, 2013)

MWJB said:


> This is dehydration and is the original method for determining extraction yield. It is possible, but time consuming & you need very accurate scales & protocol. When you are done, you have a TDS reading, but still need to establish how that relates to extraction yield...there are non-obvious pitfalls in doing this. You also need to adequately filter the espresso samples prior to dehydration.


If you had a very solid methodology, not suggesting that it would be worth setting up in a home environment (I certainly couldn't be bothered), you could measure the TDS of the water used and subtract this from the brewed coffee TDS to give you a more accurate indication of extraction yield. Is this something that is taken into account in a VST refractometer?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

stub24 said:


> Good point, but just a quick calc would suggest that there should be 3 g of solids when using 15 g of coffee for an extraction yield of 20%. Rough estimate of a 1% error in extraction yield if using a 0.1g scale. My be useful for a rough indication.


This raises the point as to whether we re guesstimating, or measuring? If you're going to guesstimate, then why not go by taste & why throw money at the question? If you are going to dehydrate a whole shot, you're not going to be able to make any taste assessments to see how yield & taste relate to each other & adequately filtering that much espresso may be difficult in a home environment. +/-1% of extraction yield is often your entire useful range regarding a sweet spot.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

stub24 said:


> If you had a very solid methodology, not suggesting that it would be worth setting up in a home environment (I certainly couldn't be bothered), you could measure the TDS of the water used and subtract this from the brewed coffee TDS to give you a more accurate indication of extraction yield. Is this something that is taken into account in a VST refractometer?


When using a refractometer you calibrate it using de-ionised water before taking a coffee reading.


----------



## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> When using a refractometer you calibrate it using de-ionised water before taking a coffee reading.


One thing that's always confused me with the refract thing is this. If I brew 2 coffees. Everything is the same except the water. 1st water is hardness of 80ppm TDS (my house) and 2nd is 200ppm TDS (a coffee roastery). If coffee is 98% water then surely the end beverage TDS would be massively affected by the water used in the process.

I therefore don't understand why you don't calibrate with the brew water to get your zero point as the results would surely then give you the actual extracted TDS rather than anything else.

I imagine that it's probably just a huge failure to understand on my part


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Hoping Mark can answer this but you are talking parts per million. The difference in the example you use would be 120ppm which is 0.012%.


----------



## stub24 (Sep 22, 2013)

MWJB said:


> This raises the point as to whether we re guesstimating, or measuring? If you're going to guesstimate, then why not go by taste & why throw money at the question? If you are going to dehydrate a whole shot, you're not gong to be able to make any taste assessments to see how yield & taste relate to each other & adequately filtering that much espresso may be difficult in a home environment. +/-1% of extraction yield is often your entire useful range regarding a sweet spot.


Great reply, so conclusion is the dehydration method is not accurate to provide any useful info. I like a succinct answer to my original question.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok thinking about it I'd like to start simple

Say a vst v ims over a period of time using a range of coffees ...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

stub24 said:


> Great reply, so conclusion is the dehydration method is not accurate to provide any useful info. I like a succinct answer to my original question.


I didn't quite say that (the "1% ext. yield accuracy" was your parameter), diligent dehydration is certainly accurate, but laborious and you'd be working with much smaller samples than you anticipate...& subsequently need greater level of accuracy & care. I don't think many would have the patience for home use.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok thinking about it I'd like to start simple
> 
> Say a vst v ims over a period of time using a range of coffees ...


Hoping this will take into account price, useability , availabity , build quality etc etc and not just yield .


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Hoping this will take into account price, useability , availabity , build quality etc etc and not just yield .


Nope just yield







keeping it simple , my test my rulez...

Up to anyone else if they read it or buy it , or not

To be honest I'm proabably gonna do this over a few weeks months to get a cross sample of coffee and a decent size sample .

Also

I'm unsure how I would equate a basket being £5-10 more or less or more with a 2 percent difference In yield .

I'm unsure how I would equate if it's easy for me to use or someone else

I'm unsure what the build quality of a basket would be

I don't have a microscope and stuff


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Fair comment dude , didn't really read the post title , just saw basket.

i can see the like and thanks tab but not the geek point tab


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mertin,

I've found that the IMS 16/20 basket is the closer one to the VST 20g, you can certainly borrow my 16/20g and 18/22g IMS baskets and my Sage standard basket as they are a triple as well and designed to be very much like a VST, unless you wanted to buy an IMS one anyway.


----------



## vikingboy (Mar 11, 2013)

subscribing for geeky coffee info.

Ive got a refractometer kicking around somewhere and the VST / IMS baskets too. Let me know what coffee you are planning on using & when and perhaps I can try and replicate results etc.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Charliej said:


> Mertin,
> 
> I've found that the IMS 16/20 basket is the closer one to the VST 20g, you can certainly borrow my 16/20g and 18/22g IMS baskets and my Sage standard basket as they are a triple as well and designed to be very much like a VST, unless you wanted to buy an IMS one anyway.


I've got some ims I'll post up what the serial numbers are and some one can tell me which ones I have


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

vikingboy said:


> subscribing for geeky coffee info.
> 
> Ive got a refractometer kicking around somewhere and the VST / IMS baskets too. Let me know what coffee you are planning on using & when and perhaps I can try and replicate results etc.


That would be cool


----------



## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Froggy,

some useful links on the above:

http://www.mattperger.com/Extract-More-Better/.U9kX11ZZ9g0

http://www.mattperger.com/Refractometer-Method/.U9kX2VZZ9g0

http://www.jimseven.com/2014/04/30/reverse-engineering-espresso/


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I've got some ims I'll post up what the serial numbers are and some one can tell me which ones I have


Ending with 24.5 is the 12/18g, 26.5 is the 16/20g and 28.5 is the 18/22g all yours should start with B70


----------



## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Hoping this will take into account price, useability , availabity , build quality etc etc and not just yield .


The other baskets are far more expensive than the VST. They start out cheaper, but since VSTs deliver about 15% more coffee solids into your cup than almost all the others, you can downdose your espresso shots. In this way the VSTs pay for themselves in one or two months.


----------

