# L1.....stand the test of time



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Perhaps some of the older members will recall that I had a love/hate relationship with Londinium. I first bought one in 2012. I think I was second on the forum to RoloD who had a commercial arrangement with them, and bought mine following the review that Glenn did. In fact I was always slightly surprised that he never bought one! Mine was one of the Luxe versions which had glass panels, and looking back this was the cost

1x LONDINIUM I - Plumbed / 240V, 2850W / UK for £1,300.00 each

1x LONDINIUM I - Luxe option (glass sides & tarnish free polished boiler) / - / - for £476.88 each

Subtotal : £1,776.88 GBP

Shipping : £29.16 GBP

VAT : £355.38 GBP

Total : £2,161.42 GBP

Thats a lot of brass but if you allow for the glass sides, then you are looking at about £1600. My early one had issues, not with the machine or its ability but none of the pipes that were on display, were nipped up tight enough so that once heated up, then leaked like sieves. Because they were on display you could not simply tighten them as the pipes and nuts were covered with a varnish type finish that easily scratched. Anyway, eventually all was sorted.

I think in the early days, Londinium were also roasting and specialised in darker roasts, to which the early l1 machines are best suited. I am not technical so perhaps someone else can expand but lets just say that the bar pressure and extraction pressure are better suited to a dark roast. Think about traditional Italian lever cafes. With the market changing in favour of lighter roasts, it was realised that the original machines were not best suited to lighter roasts, hence the development that has taken place to the stage where we are now, awaiting the latest bluetooth bolt ons allowing lighter roast folks to get to coffee heaven that bit faster!

The point of this ramble, is to make sure that anyone who is thinking about a lever and prefers darker roasts (medium and above), then you need to be sourcing an early variant, just as much as if you like lighter roasts you need a newer version. 7 years on, these have stood the test of time. Allowing for the loss of vat, a decent early machine sells for about £1300 if it is in nice condition and its history is known ie water type. You do not often hear of an L1 owner complaining and from an ownership perspective, there is not much to go wrong with them.

So, lever plus medium/darker roasts, keep your eyes peeled for a good early one. Important to know what water has been fed as the best way to descale one means boiler removal, so it is easier to solve that by feeding the right water than descaling once a year.

Here endeth the lecture


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

I bought bought my L1in December 2014. What you write matches my experience, but I might add one further observation. The Italian group is tailored for Italian size single and double doses (7 & 14 grams). That is more or less what I use (7g in Strada single baskets and 15g in VST 15g baskets) and they work very well: plenty of pressure and plenty of liquid. I have never tried the 18 and more grams that are standard in Third Wave cafes, but I wonder if they would take the machine near the upper margins or its effectiveness. BTW, it would be relatively costly but the L1-R but they can can be used to mimic the early L1s and buyers would always have the option of trying lighter roasts.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think from memory, that for a double, 15 gm is king. If you go to 18 gm it is difficult without doing a Fellini to get enough water into the group. Took me about a week to revert back from a pump to a lever. The shots produced are just so superior but only if your fieldcraft is right!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

It's possible to pull 1:2 ratio shots from an original LI - 18grms > 36grms. As I recall Reiss recommended dosing 15 grams for his beans - he was roasting medium plus in the good old days. Only thing to watch with the LI is extending pre-infusion times (consequence of lighter roasts) with the danger of stalling the siphon. Even if that happens, it's no big deal to purge any air in the circuit and get the siphon running smoothly again.


----------



## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

dfk41 said:


> I think from memory, that for a double, 15 gm is king. If you go to 18 gm it is difficult without doing a Fellini to get enough water into the group. Took me about a week to revert back from a pump to a lever. The shots produced are just so superior but only if your fieldcraft is right!


 18 gm should still make for a good ristretto through it though?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mr Binks said:


> 18 gm should still make for a good ristretto through it though?


 you can make a ristretto from any weight of beans, since it is about the amount you pull off in ratio


----------



## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

dfk41 said:


> you can make a ristretto from any weight of beans, since it is about the amount you pull off in ratio


 Agreed. What I was asking was would there be a great enough amount of water, minus the Fellini witchcraft, to convert 18 gm into a ristretto or would you be better of sticking to a lower weight anyway?

Asking because I'm pretty sure my next machine will be a Londinium and I'd be interested to know whether I should look at an L1 or go the whole hog and hold out for an R.


----------



## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Still using my Dec 2012 original variant L1.

Still using light roasts.

Still dosing 19g at 1:2.

No issues from me. The shots taste different to those pulled on an LM or similar in a high end third wave cafe but there are many variables.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

different folks, different experiences/opinions. If I try 18gm, then in my humble, without several Fellini moves or holding the lever down way in excess of 10 seconds, then puck does not saturate enough to pull a shot. But, if your taste buds tell you differently, then that's fine as taste rules. For me, you need a fully saturated puck for the obvious reasons but I am always willing to listen to others experiences


----------



## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

I am on an old L1, using primarily medium-dark roasts. It's terrific! I suspect it is all I'll ever need in an espresso machine.

I wholeheartedly agree with the importance of a FULLY saturated puck, and I preinfuse until it is. If the preinfusion doesn't yield an even sweat across the screen, and/or super gloppy (heavy & thick) initial drops, I know I can do better.? That slow & initial saturation really does make a superior shot. Which, by the way, also helps with great ristrettos, imho.

Your comments above raise a couple of questions for me:

What constitutes a "Fellini move" or "fellini witchcraft"... does it apply to spring levers? ... and what is its purpose? ?

Short of boosting grouphead temperature with short flushes just prior to pulling a shot, are there other strategies you use to accommodate lighter roasts on the L1? (I favour medium-dark roasts, but enjoy experimenting with lighter & fruitier roasts every now & then.)


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Fellini is the raising of the lever for a second or third time which forces more water into the group. If for example, you pulled a shot and were no where near the required output and the spring was nearly back to the top, you could cock it again for say 3 or 4 seconds to force water in, then return the spring to the biting point. If you pre infuse correctly it is technically not needed and I just use it as a rescue move!

I never touch light roasts so cannot help there!


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I think one of the best things about the L1 is the simplicity. If I owned a more complex machine, after 5 or 6 years I would be getting nervous and would probably be looking to buy a replacement. My L1 is 7 years old and solid as a rock. An L1 isn't just a coffee machine its an heir loom

I do occasionally think about replacing it, but realistically, I have a rubbish pallet. Plus or minus 2deg C in brew temp and I won't notice, or at least wouldn't know which was better, so a dual boiler PID would be wasted on me. I hate light roasts, so don't need higher pressure PI

The one thing I hate is the vibe pump, so one day I will get an LR ....but the complexity puts me off


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

NickR said:


> The one thing I hate is the vibe pump, so one day I will get an LR ....but the complexity puts me off
> 
> Nick, can you plumb yours in? Mine is not currently but it is easy to do, then all you have to worry about is the silence!


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Good point - but I can't do it either.


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

NickR said:


> Good point - but I can't do it either.


 I can't see a reply - is there actually one there?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> I can't see a reply - is there actually one there?


 I put the reply into his speech box!

Nick, can you plumb yours in? Mine is not currently but it is easy to do, then all you have to worry about is the silence!


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I put the reply into his speech box!
> 
> Nick, can you plumb yours in? Mine is not currently but it is easy to do, then all you have to worry about is the silence!


 sneaky ?


----------



## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

As others have noted, I can't imagine ever wanting anything other than my basic, non-plumbed L1, which works well for me with light and medium roasts. I use an 18gm basket but dose with 17gm, aiming for 34gm out and a preinfusion time of six seconds. Maybe I am doing it all wrong but I like what ends up in the cup.


----------



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

NickR said:


> I think one of the best things about the L1 is the simplicity. If I owned a more complex machine, after 5 or 6 years I would be getting nervous and would probably be looking to buy a replacement. My L1 is 7 years old and solid as a rock. An L1 isn't just a coffee machine its an heir loom
> 
> I do occasionally think about replacing it, but realistically, I have a rubbish pallet. Plus or minus 2deg C in brew temp and I won't notice, or at least wouldn't know which was better, so a dual boiler PID would be wasted on me. I hate light roasts, so don't need higher pressure PI
> 
> The one thing I hate is the vibe pump, so one day I will get an LR ....but the complexity puts me off


 I'm thinking a long the same lines, I love the simplicity of the LI, I keep thinking about going for the LR but also wonder about the added complexity in the long term. I'm unable to plumb in so I have to run with the vibe pump, but part of me would like to mess around with the pressure PI and do some lighter roasts.


----------



## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Even if that happens, it's no big deal to purge any air in the circuit and get the siphon running smoothly again.


 By purging any air, the strategy is to simply perform short flushes, correct? Or, is there something I am missing? (I do hear air bubbles gurgling inside the machine from time to time, and asssumed this was normal "breathing", but maybe I am overlooking a crucial step?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@Deidre You won't hear air bubbling from the siphon. Any noise you hear will be from the boiler. Clearing air from the siphon can be achieved by lever flushes and also opening the hot water tap and running off plenty of water. The simple test that will tell you whether or not the siphon has stalled is to leave the machine on to settle at optimum temperature (30-40mins) without pulling any flushes during that time. Then put hand on the group. If it's operating at normal temp, i.e. not stalled, you won't be able to keep you hand on the group for more than a touch. If you can keep your hand on for two or three seconds or more, the siphon has stalled and you need to perform the purging operation.


----------



## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

.... and are a few gurgle noises from the boiler anything to be concerned about? (I don't hear it very often, just on accasion.)


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Nothing to worry about.


----------



## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

What do owners of Londiniums think about the reliability of their machines? I really want one and plan on saving, but I keep getting put off by the fact they're made by Fracino.

I bought a Classico around Christmas 15 or 16 direct from them and it's needed repairing 3 times with very light use. The reason I bought it was because I wrongly assumed that I would get support from a UK company, but they rarely answer emails, fob you off on the phone and have a repair agent who they say covers the North West who isn't willing to travel there and I wouldn't want him to anyway, as he lives in Huddersfield and would probably charge a small fortune. If you politely ask questions about any problem on their social media platforms you're post is deleted and you're blocked without so much as a reply. Basically, apart from the one time I got through to the head design engineer who was brilliant and seemed genuinely enthusiastic and proud, they've been a right shower of shite. Honestly, I'd have been much better off buying an Italian, Spanish or German machine from Bella Barista, which is a sad statement to make about British manufacturing.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Think of Fracino as no more than a production line of convenience. They have had ni input into the Londinium machines. I first bought one in 2012 and it had problems, but they were simply that it had glass panels and this meant the nuts on pipes could not be tightened without damage to them. That version was quickly dropped and my machine had steel sides put on and problem over. After that I think the early models had an issue with the thermosyphon occasionally stalling, but the remedy was simply to flush 20 mls of water after pulling the shot.

I have not always seen eye to eye with Reiss, but he does supply excellent after sales service which is very reassuring. The only decision you need to make is do you buy the new all singing/dancing variant or the original. The roast level of beans will answer that


----------



## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

cold war kid said:


> What do owners of Londiniums think about the reliability of their machines? I really want one and plan on saving, but I keep getting put off by the fact they're made by Fracino.
> 
> I bought a Classico around Christmas 15 or 16 direct from them and it's needed repairing 3 times with very light use. The reason I bought it was because I wrongly assumed that I would get support from a UK company, but they rarely answer emails, fob you off on the phone and have a repair agent who they say covers the North West who isn't willing to travel there and I wouldn't want him to anyway, as he lives in Huddersfield and would probably charge a small fortune. If you politely ask questions about any problem on their social media platforms you're post is deleted and you're blocked without so much as a reply. Basically, apart from the one time I got through to the head design engineer who was brilliant and seemed genuinely enthusiastic and proud, they've been a right shower of shite. Honestly, I'd have been much better off buying an Italian, Spanish or German machine from Bella Barista, which is a sad statement to make about British manufacturing.


 Its a pity you have had problems with you Francino. However, if you spoke to an Engineer at BB, I'm sure you would find that there are occasional problems with ALL machines, even German ones.

In the long-term, reliability is dependent on the number of components in the system, the quality of those components and the workmanship of the assembly. There are very few machines in the class of a Londinium that have fewer parts. Have a look at the components in a Londinium machine and you will see that they are in the main, top of the line commercial grade. I don't know if Reiss has a special agreement with Francino, but the build quality of mine is beyond reproach. Coming from a (distant) background of Electronic Engineering, I also look at the wiring loom of any machine. The routing, the quality of the wire used and the connectors. It's not often I say this, but British is best, or at least better than Italian/Spanish.

The only problems I have had in 7/8 years of ownership were with seals and I'm pretty sure this has been resolved in the latest machines. Reiss, is always on hand on skype or facetime or simply on the Londinium forum. As I said above, ALL machines will break down at some point. However, ten years down the line, you stand a much better chance of being able to get parts for a Londinium, and fix it yourself than almost any other machine on the market.


----------



## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

NickR said:


> Its a pity you have had problems with you Francino. However, if you spoke to an Engineer at BB, I'm sure you would find that there are occasional problems with ALL machines, even German ones.


 Very true. I wasn't implying that I thought these machines were any better, they'll all share lots of generic parts for a start. It was more a case of I know that BB have really good customer service and look after their customers.

I'm glad you rate Londinium so highly, it does put my mind at rest somewhat.


----------



## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

I echo what has been said above. L1 is beautifully made, with simple components that are all top quality.

The help Reiss provides in the event of any issues really is outstanding and pretty instant. What other machine allows you to arrange a Skype call with the designer to help resolve any issues or guide you through how to replace components. Only issue I have had with my 2014 L1 was to replace the vibe pump. Cost about £35 from memory and was an easy job as all of the side and top panels are easily removed to provide full access

Overall the L1 seems very reliable. You can get an idea of the types of issues that could arise (and their solutions) from looking at the forum on the Londinium website.

I feel pretty confident that if an issue did arise with my machine that I would be able to fix it for the cost of replacement parts, with expert guidance from Reiss on what the issue was and how to fix it


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

I'm not sure the common wisdom about the early (pre-R) L1s not being suited to pulling light roasts is true. I recently bought a Tonino roast colour meter, which gives me an objective measurement of roast levels. I find that very light espresso beans from Tim Wendelboe and other light-roast specialists (Tonino ~120) respond well to the following formula:

15g in a 15g VST basket; careful puck preparation; 5" pre-infusion at boiler pressure (1.2bar); then raise the lever to catch point to complete the pre-infusion (drops appear in a few seconds) and release lever. I normally cut the shot after ~30g of liquid (total time of pour after lever release ~24"). The result is dense, sweet, tasty and measures ~21% Extraction Yield.


----------

