# Odyssey



## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

Have you guys seen this: https://www.odysseyespresso.com ?

What do you think?

I'm amazed that someone figured out how to make a machine that can be both direct and spring lever and worried about the splashing due to height between PF and cup.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

mmmm steel and wood....looks nice (no Eagle required) enough.


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## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

Enea said:


> What do you think?


 Potentially a nice looking machine, with an Interesting design.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Marocchino Is it actually available yet?


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## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Is it actually available yet?


 Good point - it's probably still on a computer hard drive somewhere as a CAD file.


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

It looks very nice.

I like the fact the gallery has a lot of stripped down photos on it. You get to see the insides.

Would like to see a video of the lever clevis rotating 180 degrees.

I couldn't see a price anywhere?


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## CJV8 (Apr 8, 2019)

They're protoyping at the moment. Follow them on Instagram or Facebook for regular updates. I think the aim is sub $1000 (US).


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

It does look really nice!


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Good to see a pressure gauge in the gallery, although I wonder how that would work if you're rotating the lever? Looks very 'testy' than final product.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Just looking at the PCB and I'm trying to work out if that's a "sim-card" or "memory-card" holder or if it's a "wi-fi" module.....hard to tell from the gallery picture (low quality when enlarged).....interesting though 😎

EDIT :- too many pins on the "chip" to be a memory/sim card holder...it might be a BT/Wifi module or neither (possibly a uPC)


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## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @Marocchino Is it actually available yet?


 On FB, they said they would start building 5 machines in February with pre-orders starting after those 5 have been built and tested.

If their timeline holds (& it's always a big "if"), it should be available fairly soon.

They also say price: $800 (which after shipping and customs should still be less than £1000)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

They could be onto a winner at that price. Certainly makes some stiff competition for the Londinium Compact (Vectis) and Pavoni..


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If the finished article includes a pressure gauge to allow user pressure profiling - could be a winner depending on final shipped price. Would want to see how stable it is while the lever is being cocked.


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## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> They could be onto a winner at that price. Certainly makes some stiff competition for the Londinium Compact (Vectis) and Pavoni..


 If it's well built, it could even gobble up Cremina market share (added functionality for less $$$)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@PortafilterProcrastinator Do you have some links to the gallery?


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @PortafilterProcrastinator Do you have some links to the gallery?


 Should all be here: https://www.odysseyespresso.com/gallery


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Enea said:


> If it's well built, it could even gobble up Cremina market share (added functionality for less $$$)





DavecUK said:


> They could be onto a winner at that price. Certainly makes some stiff competition for the Londinium Compact (Vectis) and Pavoni..


 What is the steaming like on the Cremina? It looks like the steaming on this is much the same as the Pavoni - so limited?

EDIT: when I say much the same, I mean the principle of a small, direct fill, boiler.

I am not sure if we know what steaming capability the Vectis will have, but surely if someone can bring a better 'steam game' to one of these machines at this price point it will open up a much wider market?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> What is the steaming like on the Cremina? It looks like the steaming on this is much the same as the Pavoni - so limited?
> 
> I am not sure if we know what steaming capability the Vectis will have, but surely if someone can bring a better 'steam game' to one of these machines at this price point it will open up a much wider market?


 Cremina is fantastic at steaming!


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

> 25 minutes ago, dfk41 said:
> 
> Cremina is fantastic at steaming!


 Well that's good given the price!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Well that's good given the price!


 And what price would that be matey?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

If the odyssey ends up looking like the renders, it's going to be one very popular little machine. It would be really nice to see this small company become successful. The target date of May 2021 for the first test units in the field looks realistic. It will be very interesting to see the results of the tests.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Enea said:


> If it's well built, it could even gobble up Cremina market share (added functionality for less $$$)


 Doubt it......obviously on price then you are right, but did the Evo 4 kill the RS2000 market (Rally cars!)


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## Enea (Jun 7, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> Doubt it......obviously on price then you are right, but did the Evo 4 kill the RS2000 market (Rally cars!)


 Not sure the Cremina stacks up to the exclusivity of an RS2000 😉

And I'd daily the Evo, but not the RS!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Enea said:


> Not sure the Cremina stacks up to the exclusivity of an RS2000 😉
> 
> And I'd daily the Evo, but not the RS!


 You obviously are not my age!


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## Eklektik (Jun 19, 2020)

I have been eyeing this since day 1. It's down to Odyssey and the LC (Vectis) for me. The Odyssey seems to have an actual roadmap that they are sticking to and an actual release so I'm really looking forward to it later this year.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Eklektik said:


> I have been eyeing this since day 1. It's down to Odyssey and the LC (Vectis) for me. The Odyssey seems to have an actual roadmap that they are sticking to and an actual release so I'm really looking forward to it later this year.


 There again, selecting the Vectis will give you longer to save up!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Really love the look of this, am signed up to getting one especially at the price point. It has the looks and if it performs it will be a hit. Always great to see new lever products coming to market.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

It's beautiful and the specs look impressive.

The specified 50g max shot yield I assume is the volume of water delivered to the group so could be a lot less?


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## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Saw this mentioned at the link below alongside a couple of other anticipated machines.

Price is interesting.

https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Anyone else keeping a close eye on this? I was seriously considering the flair 58 but this makes the flair look like a toy in comparison. A lot more features and if they hit their $800 price point then I'm in. Waiting to see how their pre-production machines perform but very likely to be buying one of these once pre-sales start! Excited.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

newdent said:


> Anyone else keeping a close eye on this? I was seriously considering the flair 58 but this makes the flair look like a toy in comparison. A lot more features and if they hit their $800 price point then I'm in. Waiting to see how their pre-production machines perform but very likely to be buying one of these once pre-sales start! Excited.


 Same here. Keeping a close eye, but I wouldn't buy it blind. Would want to see at least some users feedback first, specially with regards to overheating and temperature management. PID is no silver bullet, at least not with that type of architecture.

saying that&#8230; the Vectis is another one I'm watching very closely&#8230; but then&#8230; I've been watching it very closely since 2017! 😂😂😂😂 - if they don't hurry up, Londinium might end up missing the boat on this new generation of small levers.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Same here. Keeping a close eye, but I wouldn't buy it blind. Would want to see at least some users feedback first, specially with regards to overheating and temperature management. PID is no silver bullet, at least not with that type of architecture.


 I am also keeping a close eye, I think the easy conversion from manual to spring lever is good, as is the use of a PID to try and control temperature. If it ends up looking as good as the renders, the manufacturers of similar machines need to watch out.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Same here. Keeping a close eye, but I wouldn't buy it blind. Would want to see at least some users feedback first, specially with regards to overheating and temperature management. PID is no silver bullet, at least not with that type of architecture.
> 
> saying that&#8230; the Vectis is another one I'm watching very closely&#8230; but then&#8230; I've been watching it very closely since 2017! 😂😂😂😂 - if they don't hurry up, Londinium might end up missing the boat on this new generation of small levers.


 Yes, I had similar thoughts regarding temp management. That's a big block of metal to try cool down once it's got hot with presumably no way of cooling it without doing so manually. I'm also intrigued regarding the temp being monitored at the group and the boiler. Assuming the heating gets done in the boiler, unless there's a constant flow of water between the the two locations, I don't see how you can do much to control the temperature once you've filled the group and started pulling the shot so what's the point of that sensor apart from knowing what the temperature was when you started the shot.

I'm sure the Londinium will be nice but assume it won't compete on price. How do these more expensive levers prevent overheating? Do they have a separate cold water tank and boiler and are therefore able to use cold water to prevent overheating?


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Oh and I've noticed the designer has avoided answering some of the more challenging questions on Instagram, so would definitely hope for an in-depth run down of all the functions before committing to buy.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

newdent said:


> I'm sure the Londinium will be nice but assume it won't compete on price


 Well&#8230; the idea was that the Vectis was going to cost around £1k, hence why I mentioned. Granted that info was from a while ago and things might have changed since. I don't want to derail the thread though as it's not about the Vectis.

back on the Odissey, if they are going to use a similar system to the La Pavoni, (water in the boiler kept at steam temp) then I can't see how the group will be able to disperse the temperature or keep that steady at a pre-set temp.

we shall wait and see what the features are. Exciting for sure!



newdent said:


> How do these more expensive levers prevent overheating? Do they have a separate cold water tank and boiler and are therefore able to use cold water to prevent overheating?


 The Londiniums have a thermosyphon. It circulates the water from the boiler, kept at steam temperature, between the group and the boiler by convection. I don't know exactly how the water arrives at the group, whether it's from the tank through an HX or exclusive from the boiler. The group then acts as a heat sink. Most of its user base really rate the machine, but there's not a great deal of evidence out there of what temperature the coffee has been brewed with. So, who knows&#8230;

the Pro-800 is a dipper. The water, kept at steam temp in the boiler fills the group. There's no thermosyphon, and the heat transfer is by means of conduction and when the water fills the group. The group also acts as a heat sink.

The Vesuvius Evo Leva is a dual boiler machine AND the group also has heating elements, which are all configurable. So there's no guess work. It's just a matter of keeping the water stable at the set temperature coming from the boiler, through the group, and into the cup. You can set and see the real time temperature of the group and the boilers via the display.

The above is as per my understanding of the machines. Someone please correct me if I said anything incorrect.

I don't think there's any modern lever machine which uses cold water to keep the temperature by means of cooling down the group.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

I think the idea will be to keep the boiler at brew temperature and then select steam mode to raise the temperature, so an advantage over the la pavoni there. The designer has said on Instagram that the boiler is so small that the temperature can be controlled quite easily. Says he will upload temperature data from 6 back to back shots.

I read the piston sweep is 50ml of water, so not sure what the max ratios will end up as, could be an issue for some people. I usually have lower ratios but it's nice to pull the shot for a bit longer if something has gone wrong.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

interesting - sorry my bad, should've re-read all the specs.

question: if the water in the boiler is going to be kept at brew temp, so you know whether there will be a pump or something to push he water to the group or will the water in there be kept at slight above boiling?

edit: looking at the photos on their site, there's a pipe from the bottom of the boiler to the group. To the water will have to be above 100C in order to make it's way up there.

Would also love to know how the steam wand works. From the pictures, it seems like it's coming from the bottom of the boiler too... Maybe there's a pipe that runs inside the boiler which grabs steam from the top?

To me, at least, I need more answers 🙂


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I'd love to see this offered as a kit. Price reflecting the lack of assembly labour costs and perhaps saving on VAT and duty. Some kit cars were sold like this; buy a ready made one or buy a kit of the most important parts and build one up yourself. Would make a great project.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> I'd love to see this offered as a kit. Price reflecting the lack of assembly labour costs and perhaps saving on VAT and duty. Some kit cars were sold like this; buy a ready made one or buy a kit of the most important parts and build one up yourself. Would make a great project.


 I agree, a kit would be very popular, make for easier shipping and ensure end customers were familiar enough with their machine to easily effect a repair using supplied parts. I imagine they will only be doing a parts warranty.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> interesting - sorry my bad, should've re-read all the specs.
> 
> question: if the water in the boiler is going to be kept at brew temp, so you know whether there will be a pump or something to push he water to the group or will the water in there be kept at slight above boiling?
> 
> ...


 As you've seen, I'm not familiar with the mechanics of lever machines but could raising the lever pull water into the group (sort of like filling a syringe)?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

newdent said:


> As you've seen, I'm not familiar with the mechanics of lever machines but could raising the lever pull water into the group (sort of like filling a syringe)?


 They don't work like that...The main boiler is under pressure as it's usually above 100C, this forces the water into the group once the chamber ports are exposed as the piston reaches the full up position. An actuator on the rear operated by a cam opens the valve to these ports. Then steam pressure pushes water out of a shared boiler to fill the group. Or on a machine like the Veusivus Evo a pump fills the group from a dedicated brew boiler.






The reason raising the lever can't pull water in is the big open area at the bottom of the group which lets air in, even if the PF is full of coffee....it's not airtight. Plus the Piston seals work in one direction....when the lever moves down or is static.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

> 19 minutes ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> They don't work like that...The main boiler is under pressure as it's usually above 100C, this forces the water into the group once the chamber ports are exposed as the piston reaches the full up position. An actuator on the rear operated by a cam opens the valve to these ports. Then steam pressure pushes water out of a shared boiler to fill the group. Or on a machine like the Veusivus Evo a pump fills the group from a dedicated brew boiler.


 Interesting, thanks for the info.

In that case, I look forward to the videos showing back to back shots and how it manages temperature.

Also hoping for a light wood version as not sure how I feel about the dark wood. Instagram seems to indicate light wood and black are possible options. White would go nicely with my niche... 🤔


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Hey everyone, for those not following on Instagram (go check out the new photos and videos), Odyssey have built a full production machine and will be opening pre-orders next week with base machine costing $850. He said he'll need 200 to have enough funds to start production, all detailed in full if you sign up at https://www.odysseyespresso.com

I'm pretty keen personally dependant on how much extra the add-ons are. He's mentioned on posts on Instagram that additional features like pressure gauge and pressure transmitter will be inexpensive, so let's hope that remains the case! I'd love to see some temperature and pressure tends in real time, this keeps being promised but nothing has been put up, it's a lot of money to invest without knowing how well it performs.

He's mentioned that colour choices will be walnut or oak with options for black or white.

If I paid for this on my credit card, how much are you protected if worst case scenario, orders never materialise?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

newdent said:


> it's a lot of money to invest without knowing how well it performs.


 That's the key factor for me. If he was smart, he would at least had the machine sent to some of the key enthusiasts around the world, for their feedback. Doesn't need to be published. He can then iterate over, and do it again, until the overall feedback is positive.

Seems to me he's skipping restricted alpha testing, and going straight to beta testing on a production level. Crazy. It might be good, it might well work, but without the evidence and facts showing it works&#8230; it's a risky business.

edit: like, how's this any different from a La Pavoni, or a Ponte Vecchio? We all know they overheat like mad. How's the water reaching the group? How's the temperature managed? All it says it's the magical PID&#8230; but what does it mean? What's the temperature at the group when pulling a shot? And how consistent is it? I need more facts!


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That's the key factor for me. If he was smart, he would at least had the machine sent to some of the key enthusiasts around the world, for their feedback. Doesn't need to be published. He can then iterate over, and do it again, until the overall feedback is positive.
> 
> Seems to me he's skipping restricted alpha testing, and going straight to beta testing on a production level. Crazy. It might be good, it might well work, but without the evidence and facts showing it works&#8230; it's a risky business.


 Yes, it's almost suspicious (though I'm extremely cynical) that he has no information up whatsoever on it actually making coffee and streaming milk. The few videos he has got up are all gushers and I don't think there's any videos of it being used in manual.

Even kickstarters come with quite lengthy videos showing their test models in use.

Last but not least, he's renamed it to 'Argos'. I just hope it not written on it in red lettering. Ha.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MediumRoastSteam I'd second this, it's surprising how many things come out of alpha testing and prototype testing. Often the designer can be blind to the issues users can experience. It's definitely a high risk strategy.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

newdent said:


> though I'm extremely cynical


 Join the club mate! 😂😂😂😂



newdent said:


> renamed it to 'Argos'


 'Order no. 120 ready at collection point "B" please'. Branding excercise failure. Obviously didn't do some basic research on target markets. Gosh&#8230; and I don't even work in marketing.



DavecUK said:


> Often the designer can be blind to the issues users can experience


 exactly. I've worked in software engineering for a while now. Everything is great when the programmers test it, and use it. Then the cold reality hits home.

How can anyone release a product without the release of meaningful information is beyond me. likewise, how can anyone actually buy a product that hasn't even been demonstrated to perform to an acceptable standard is even more worrying. Maybe some of us have lots of cash to spare.

edit: they seem to have skipped alpha, beta, and general release. They went straight to version 2.0! 😂😂😂🍿🍿🍿









sorry for coming across so negatively. I also had high expectations. But to me, looks like it's been rushed through production. At this point, good luck to them. I'm out.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Agreed, he needs to get these models in the hands of some people that know what they're doing and get them to use them every day for at least a few weeks. Get them testing all different roast levels, back to back shots, etc to discover any issues.

I think his approach is to get pre-orders in and offer refunds so that testing can continue on the run up to the shipping date.

My concern with that is if they discover something major that they can't resolve, how protected is your money? Will paying by credit card work?

If so, I'd be happy to give him a chance but I'd really like to see some evidence that the features he's claiming can be delivered on. He talks as if he knows everything works as claimed, so why not share that information to put people's minds at ease because at the moment I'm getting massive Fyre Festival vibes!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

newdent said:


> Will paying by credit card work


 I have no idea. It would be best to check the small print (Overseas purchase, a product that's not in actual production, etc, etc).


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## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

Seriously, for the price of a Niche, I'll take the risk.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Pasturemaster said:


> Seriously, for the price of a Niche, I'll take the risk.


 Not for UK buyers! But agree I'd take the risk of my money is protected. Will look into it!


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I'll sit this one out as well. Also mentions 6 bar spring, which isn't surprising given its size, but that would be at the bottom end of what I'd like as it just creeps into espresso range. Might work ok but I'll wait for the Beta testers (or is it Alpha?) first


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> I'll sit this one out as well. Also mentions 6 bar spring, which isn't surprising given its size, but that would be at the bottom end of what I'd like as it just creeps into espresso range. Might work ok but I'll wait for the Beta testers (or is it Alpha?) first


 I read it as the 6bar spring was an optional extra, might be worth checking that. Plus there's manual control or is that of no interest?

I think waiting is probably sensible so long as the price doesn't creep up!


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

You could be right, not 100% clear. Not interested in manual, have a Robot for that


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> You could be right, not 100% clear. Not interested in manual, have a Robot for that


 Ah I see, I'll be replacing my robot with this (maybe). I'll keep both for a while and see which I prefer. Milk steaming situation is a pain atm.


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## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

Yes there is an 8 bar spring that comes standard, a 6 bar spring is an option or spin the top of the group and remove the spring for manual.
There is a plumb-in kit in the pipeline(no pun intended).
The spring appears short but the piston is recessed and about 1/3-1/2 of the spring sits inside the piston.
I might end up getting burnt (possibly literally as that top SS plate is going to be hot) but this little beastie pushes a lot of buttons for me.
It is about the same price as a 20yo unrestored, unpimped LP in Oz with hopefully better temp management, no plastic parts and a 50ml shot ability.
For the Vegans, oops I mean Decenterati, there is software available so you can compare squiggly lines on charts.
What's not to love.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Pasturemaster said:


> Yes there is an 8 bar spring that comes standard, a 6 bar spring is an option or spin the top of the group and remove the spring for manual.
> There is a plumb-in kit in the pipeline(no pun intended).
> The spring appears short but the piston is recessed and about 1/3-1/2 of the spring sits inside the piston.
> I might end up getting burnt (possibly literally as that top SS plate is going to be hot) but this little beastie pushes a lot of buttons for me.
> ...


 All the features are at this point unproven though. If it delivers on the features, then no doubt it'll be a bargain and probably very popular! I'm keeping an eye for sure.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

I think there is a gamble alright, and it's expensive if it goes wrong and a potential bargain of its maybe 2/3 right.

Ill have a look at the details when the pre orders open and I really hope this project delivers.

A spring la pav thay can pull 3 shots back to back would do it for me tbf.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

steveholt said:


> A spring la pav thay can pull 3 shots back to back


 But at the moment, you don't even know if it can pull one decently, let alone three.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Many years ago, a pal of mine was a Building Society manager and without naming the person, he told me that X had visited him to try to raise some funds for a commercial housing development. The basis was that he wanted to secure the total project cost by raising funds against the expected value of the deal.....not the actual value of the land which was even without planning permission. His comment was, he expects my society to put up all the funds, take all the risk whilst he walks away with all the profit.

Crowdfunding at its best in 1985!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

crowd funding works sometimes tho doesn't it..


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> crowd funding works sometimes tho doesn't it..


 Sometimes, but it doesn't give the expected return to those "investing" as often as it should.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake Yes it does, but the point is it has been around in one form or another for years. Somehow, if it is now done via Platform, then it appears often, as if the deal is ok. The Odyssey deal is appalling.....but others may see it differently


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> But at the moment, you don't even know if it can pull one decently, let alone three.


 And in a way that's the 850 dollar crowd funding gamble


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

steveholt said:


> And in a way that's the 850 dollar crowd funding gamble


 When was the last time you put $850 on a horse race!


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> When was the last time you put $850 on a horse race!


 Never have, and I haven't on the Odysee either.

I have backed 4 crowd funded coffee projects over the years.

2 delivered products at significant cost reduction to current RRP, one of which was from a known specialty coffee company and one from a new company.

1 is TBC and the last is a scales that's name escapes me but didn't come to fruition and gave refunds.

The other three were The Aergrind, the Niche and the Weber Key.

The Odyssee has a lot of info to deliver before I make any decision, but I am not going to rule it in nor out just yet.

I haven't handed over a penny, I'm happy to see if what they promise and what the terms of engagement/refund are come funding time.

Between now and then we are all just speculating. Informed/suitably skeptical speculation in part, but it's still speculation.


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

I can't believe they called it Argos.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

lake_m said:


> I can't believe they called it Argos.


 Better than Poundland........


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## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

lake_m said:


> I can't believe they called it Argos.


 Only relevant in the UK I'm afraid.


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## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> When was the last time you put $850 on a horse race!


 When was the last time you spent $850 on a case of wine?
Plenty of people do it regularly.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Pasturemaster said:


> Only relevant in the UK I'm afraid.


 Yep. Still, one of the highly potential markets.

Reminds me of the choice of name for the Mitsubishi Pajero ("Shogun" in the UK). The name doesn't go well in Spain and Spanish speaking Latin America. I let you find out why. On those markets, it was named "Montero".


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Pasturemaster said:


> When was the last time you spent $850 on a case of wine?
> Plenty of people do it regularly.


 Whats the gamble? You buy something, you receive something.....that is not fuelling another persons dreams!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Sorry if this has already been posted


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## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

> 28 minutes ago, dfk41 said:
> 
> Sorry if this has already been posted


 There are a few problems for now that will be fixed in the future. You find more out if you are on discord (EAF server) where the producer is present and does live chat sometimes.

In the prototype from the video, the boards are made by a friend, and they are not done right, he is waiting for boards from China made professional that will be in the final unit. Because of that as you can see they can only push 25g out instead of 50g+.

There are leaks in the back, and it just doesn't look ready, from an engineer point of view this I like to see stuff like this, from a customer stand point absolutely not. Some people might think they are novice that dont know what they are doing.

There are many things that will be discovered while the unit is approaching production, bugs, parts wont fit, software/bluetooth miss communication and stuff like that.

As for the price, keep dreaming. 850$ might be a pre-order for the basic unit in the first run.

to the 850$ machine made in US and shipped from there, you add 100-150$ shipping (7kg+packing) you add tax and vat for the countries that have one. If you are willing to add some extra features on it, you are closer to 1500$ mark with the final price.

1500$ for a small machine that has some components and features a Pavoni was problematic at? sounds expensive. I am not a fan of small things, that is why you dont see anymore small grinders or espresso machines at my place.


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## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

I agree with most of what you say Denis.
Where I deviate is in price, size and comparison with the LP.
In Australia a new plastic group LP is about $1400aud.
It is rare to find a 20yo unrestored Millennium LP for less than $1k aud and I have never seen a pre millennium come up for sale.
By the time one adds a metal piston and liner, boiler gauge, group pressure gauge and a group isolator you are looking at about $2k.
This still has no electronic assistance for temperature control, no spring option and is a design that the parent company hasn't been bothered trying to improve in over twenty years.
I don't want a large machine, I already have an E61 machine on my bench.
I want a simple, modern lever with built in water/boiler and no plastic components.
I also couldn't be bothered faffing around with tiny adjustments trying to get the ultimate god shot, I rarely sink a shot unless I have tried another light roast that ends up too sour.

I am somewhat bemused and disappointed by the amount of negativity shown here to new designs.
Not just the Argos but seemingly every new product is shown the sword by the starchamber.
I would have hoped that coffee enthusiasts would applaud and be excited by new designs and projects rather than deride everything from appearance to sales models.

Anyhow, if it all eventuates, I'll let you know how it works for me.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Pasturemaster said:


> I agree with most of what you say Denis.
> Where I deviate is in price, size and comparison with the LP.
> In Australia a new plastic group LP is about $1400aud.
> It is rare to find a 20yo unrestored Millennium LP for less than $1k aud and I have never seen a pre millennium come up for sale.
> ...


 I'd say the comments have been very positive in general.

Are you saying you wouldn't prefer that more of the functions are proven before investing £1k? From what I've read, the initial backers of the niche got a preferential deal. If there was a benefit offered to the first 200 that allowed production to begin, then fair enough but it does seem like a large gamble on an unproven machine.

The designer has answered lots of questions on Instagram with certainty, so why not share how he's tested those features. The reason nothing's being shared at the moment is that the PCB has broken and he's had to order a new design from China, what if the next 10 designs fail? What if a major flaw develops during testing.

I know nothing about product design but if I was building something, even just to give to some mates, I'd want to thoroughly test it first. He's saying shipping in November. Is 4 months enough time to do that?! Personally, there's no monetary gain to be had by backing early on, so may as well hold back and make sure it has no major issues before investing.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Pasturemaster - I don't have anything against the design - I don't think anyone here has. What Most of us are saying is thet it's not proven, nor demonstrated. As pointed out by @newdent , if the issue is the PCB, then let's wait and see a few videos of the machine working on a daily workflow, steaming milk, making a couple of coffees. Hopefully with some measurements. After all, that's all we, the prospective buyers can base their decisions on. Before anyone paid their £350 + £10 delivery for the Niche Zero, the grinder was taken apart, demonstrated. There was a rather in depth review, which included a lot of writing and lots of videos. There were some pototypes. For this one, thus far, it's all very scarce. There's literally nothing out there. With regards to pricing, who is there to say the price will be USD 850 for the subsequent units? You might be getting a bargain. You might be getting a door stopper. At this point in time, there's not enough information out there which allows me to make a decision. And yes, on paper this is a great machine. If there were more info out there, I'd be on that buyers list, believe me.

Initially I wanted a Londinium Vectis, but I waited and waited (years) and eventually moved on with my life. Good job I did, because it's still pretty much on paper still. IMO, if his machine succeeds - and I hope it does, the so called Vectis might as well never see the light of day and be confined to the drawing stages forever, as, at least on paper and with the little we know on both camps, the Argos wins hands down.


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## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

There is no need for "so-called" with respect to the vectis.

We can say its behind schedule, or quite delayed or also unseen in the wild. This is all true. I have been waiting since 2017 too.

Same as we can comment on our fears or hopes for the Oddysee without also inventing bigger or further speculated problems.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think most on this forum, would welcome with open arms any new technology or kit to come to the market. I think, and I may be wrong, that it is the modern approach many, especially us old fuddy duddies find bemusing. Before a product is even in prototype stage, the hype starts. The barrage on social media. The expectation levels are set to high alert. Then, bit by bit you find out key information which leads to inevitable delays and people start to become slightly deflated.

There were some on this forum who had a vested interest in the success of the Londinium Vectis and so were quite happy to promote it blindly whilst dissing anything thing else available, buy they and those days are long gone @Pasturemaster to be replaced by a happy space where we welcome all. But, that does not mean we may not question or even criticise somethings. I for one, hope that the Odyssey project really takes off and becomes a worldwide success. Nothing would give me more pleasure than seeing someone innovate successfully and genuinely bring a new product to the market. But I do wish firms would follow the older style business model, akin to say Dragons Den as opposed to making nice videos and flooding to Crowdfunding!


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)




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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Pre-orders open tomorrow. Prices seem reasonable except I'm disappointed on the bluetooth pressure transducer. Looks like it will be something similar to the SEP transducer and will presumably be mounted on top of the piston instead of an analogue gauge.

Not the best looking and whilst cheaper than the SEP option, is hoped this functionality would be included in the price which was part of its appeal.

Still think I'm going to wait until these are reviewed and available to buy off of the shelf rather than take the risk of pre-ordering.


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## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

Hey Newdent.
I think the BT transducer is only for the pressure input, there is still BT temperature data to your phone in the basic model(I believe).
I can't convince myself that the ability to be able to see a squiggly line showing what I pulled is worth the $250usd.
The rest of the stuff is cheap, $15 for a spring, $85 for a piston? 😛


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

Pasturemaster said:


> Hey Newdent.
> I think the BT transducer is only for the pressure input, there is still BT temperature data to your phone in the basic model(I believe).
> I can't convince myself that the ability to be able to see a squiggly line showing what I pulled is worth the $250usd.
> The rest of the stuff is cheap, $15 for a spring, $85 for a piston? 😛


 I think it depends on the person.

I switch coffees very regularly, so the ability to trend all the parameters of my shot, add a few notes incl. grind setting and save is really useful when returning back to that bean. A trend of the temperature is interesting but nowhere near as useful as the pressure, flow rate and yield.

If you want to trend pressure then $250 is still cheaper than the available systems. SEP charge $460 excl. tax for theirs; https://www.naked-portafilter.com/product/smart-espresso-profiler-for-3/ Espressolog.app use a TE M5600, which can be had for £200ish.

I was hoping that Odessey were going to use something else as there's no need to go the bluetooth route if they're already using a BLE chip on their control board. I guess I wired device would have been unsightly but the bluetooth transducers are hardly good looking and the savings in cost would have been significant.


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## Bicky (Oct 24, 2019)

😩


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Things seem to me moving along with the Argos....soon they will be out in the field, interesting times ahead.


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## newdent (Feb 20, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Things seem to me moving along with the Argos....soon they will be out in the field, interesting times ahead.


 I was thinking the opposite, no proper updates for nearly 3 weeks!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

newdent said:


> I was thinking the opposite, no proper updates for nearly 3 weeks!


 The company has a prototype, they have been testing, it works. It's probably not all perfect, but that's just details...the concept seems OK from what I've seen. Another small lever due to hit the market "on the 12th of never", is just a cad drawing from what I've been told. The Argos could be another 6 to 9 months away, which is not long in total, when developing a completely new machine, from scratch..


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