# Spin off debate



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Why such a high disappointment from Has bean RololD? I've yet to be disappointed (Steve is so happy to replace bad batches etc).

Tried some Londinium (think it was Tanzania SO espresso) shot but it wasn't any better than any of Steve's SO offerings.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I've been to scooter cafe albeit not for a couple of years. Espresso was pretty disappointing to be honest but the place itself is lovely (they have a pet cat!).

The thing with hasbean is that Steve sells coffee that he likes and roasts them to his tastes - why would he do anything else? Hasbean has also had rapid growth in the last few years so I don't think it's just a few of us on here that are so keen.

Also I don't think that the message that coffee should only be roasted light 'and acidic' is coming from hasbean themselves. The way I see their message is: "we think this coffee is delicious and we hope you agree" and so far it seems to be working".


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

lookseehear said:


> The thing with hasbean is that Steve sells coffee that he likes and roasts them to his tastes - why would he do anything else? Hasbean has also had rapid growth in the last few years so I don't think it's just a few of us on here that are so keen.
> 
> Also I don't think that the message that coffee should only be roasted light 'and acidic' is coming from hasbean themselves. The way I see their message is: "we think this coffee is delicious and we hope you agree" and so far it seems to be working".


Which is absolutely fine - it's a great company and I wish Steve the very best.

All I want to say it is a particular (and particularly fashionable) approach to coffee - not the only one.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I used to like HasBean stuff, maybe 8 years ago or so. I think part of the reason for his growth is because he puts a massive amount of effort into marketing. So much so that i suspect many people come across hom before anyone else. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that marketing is what he spends nearly all of his time doing.

Which is fine. He's got a business to run and he wants growth.

Why I no longer buy his stuff is because it represents very poor value for money. He charges big money for beans that frankly are no better quality than what can be had for 2/3 or less of his prices. I had 20 different bags of his beans last year, all bought as a present, and not one of them stood out. The Sidamo was so bland I couldn't believe it. Not for me.

But, I accept that there are plenty of people who are satisfied with it.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Expobarista said:


> I used to like HasBean stuff, maybe 8 years ago or so. I think part of the reason for his growth is because he puts a massive amount of effort into marketing. So much so that i suspect many people come across hom before anyone else. In fact, I'd hazard a guess that marketing is what he spends nearly all of his time doing.
> 
> Which is fine. He's got a business to run and he wants growth.
> 
> Why I no longer buy his stuff is because it represents very poor value for money. He charges big money for beans that frankly are no better quality than what can be had for 2/3 or less of his prices. I had 20 different bags of his beans last year, all bought as a present, and not one of them stood out.


I'm glad this is just your opinion. God knows what I'm tasting each week when I enjoy in my mug!

I'd love to know where the same beans, level of service and dedication can be had for 2/3 of the price. Please enlighten us.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Apparently the 1000+ in my mug subscribers must all be wrong in thinking he offers fantastic value and fantastic coffee?

I'd hate to see the look on their collective faces when you told them this.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Couldn't really care less how many customers he has. So do McDonalds.

If it floats your boat, then fine, I'm really happy for you. Doesn't mean anybody else can't hold a different opinion.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm sorry this thread has degenerated into a 'is HasBean any good?' debate. My point was simply that the HasBean approach to coffee is just one approach, not the definitive approach. It is not a style that suits me as a strictly espresso drinker, and I bascially agree with points made in Reiss' blog.

I would also venture to suggest the light roast/acidic approach has gained status because of lot of those coffees are interesting and difficult and depend on the skills and equipment of the barista to get the best out of them. The same beans will taste different depending where you drink them, and the whole competitive barista world and the new wave of coffee shops depend on that (and I'm not convinced it's what the public actually want). Traditional Italian espresso is a pretty standard product and it's very hard to imagine a world barista championship based on that sort of coffee. That's not to say there is anything wrong with Italian espresso, nor that there is a huge and interesting area between those two extremes.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I am relatively new to the intricacies of good quality espresso and all the little points of cupping and the flavours i should tasting, but i also dont think that there is a right and wrong roast for a coffee there are just different opinions, because with something as subjective as the how a coffee should taste its impossible to be "right" because there is no "right" to be had just personal preferences.

as i have been exploring different roasters im finding that i like my beans well roasted/dark but have found one or two beans i prefer medium, thankfully i have recently got beans from coffee compass who are not so presumptuous as to tell me how my beans should be, instead give me the option of having them light,medium,or dark.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Expobarista said:


> Couldn't really care less how many customers he has. So do McDonalds.
> 
> If it floats your boat, then fine, I'm really happy for you. Doesn't mean anybody else can't hold a different opinion.


McDonalds customers don't expect quality they expect very cheap mass produced food and go in under no false pretenses.

Some of your comments are bordering on slanderous and don't come across as an expression of opinion. Also you're yet to tell us which fantastic unknown coffee shop sells the same range for 2/3 of the price.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> McDonalds customers don't expect quality they expect very cheap mass produced food and go in under no false pretenses.


I think you'll find lots of people think it tastes great.

Care to point out, in your esteemed legal opinion, which of my comments are bordering on slanderous?

(p.s. just for your own education, it wouldn't be slander, it would be libel)


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The original thread was discussing Londinium. The off topic posts have been moved to their own thread.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I'm not sure I want to be responsible for the start of this discussion.

It was the OP who originally expressed feeling unsatisfied with Has Bean.

Lets hope at least it can continue in a civil fashion.

My own opinion is that Steve's beans are fantastic, with each farm he buys from having its own little stories.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> My own opinion is that Steve's beans are fantastic


...and I respect the fact that you hold that opinion. In turn, I'd expect you to accept that others may hold a different view



> .with each farm he buys from having its own little stories.


...and that is where the marketing comes in











> Lets hope at least it can continue in a civil fashion.


Absolutely. It's only coffee we are discussing, pretty inconsequential, and certainly not something for anyone to get ill-tempered about.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I think HasBean has something to offer, for me it is brewed only as I don't think the roast style works in espresso, just my personal preference. I do think however they are worth everyone trying as they are different to many other roast styles. Not all will like but I would also recommend someone to try them.

As for marketing, they are clearly well ahead of the rest and can only boost sales significantly, I don't hold that against Steve though. He is running a business after all.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Do Has Bean have a 'style' when it comes to roast? I thought the ethos is about setting the roast to suit the individual coffee, to let the coffee shine, its origin , terrior, characteristics. This might sacrifice its suitibility for easy espresso production. They could go a little darker, make it easier to extract but then loose what is unique about that farms coffee and you may as well be drinking any generic xyz.

Nick has recently put pen to paper (or fingers to keyboard) around offerings being TOO DARK compared to other micro roasters, Yirg Wote & Pacamaras being notable examples.

Ive personally found one or two of the IMMs to be a tiny bit on the roasty side for my liking, even for espresso. However [episode 204 aside] the 3 weeks previous coffees have produced SUPERB espresso, the roast absolutely nailed to allow the notes and aromas to be found - not a hint of anything sour or overtly acidic.

Historically yes I would be inclined to say offering were not best suited to the espresso machine - some entired bags ended up as sour 'sink shots'. So something must have changed. Either Has Bean have radically changed approach to roasting, or (and more likely) I have become a better barista, upgraded my grinder and amended my approach.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> Do Has Bean have a 'style' when it comes to roast? I thought the ethos is about setting the roast to suit the individual coffee, to let the coffee shine, its origin , terrior, characteristics. This might sacrifice its suitibility for easy espresso production. They could go a little darker, make it easier to extract but then loose what is unique about that farms coffee and you may as well be drinking any generic xyz.... Historically yes I would be inclined to say offering were not best suited to the espresso machine - some entired bags ended up as sour 'sink shots'. So something must have changed. Either Has Bean have radically changed approach to roasting, or (and more likely) I have become a better barista, upgraded my grinder and amended my approach.


 All I can say is that I've bought around 12 different bags from HasBean and almost all disappointed. The worst was an earlier version of Blake (which is meant to be 'old school') which I found literally undrinkable, the best the Christmas special and Breakfast Bomb (undersold as a caffeine hit). Jailbreak I find OK, but too sharp for my taste - whether I brew it at home or try it in cafés. I had a really dreadful HB espresso from Tapped & Packed (I think it was Guatemalan), the best HB espresso at Fernandez and Wells (F & W special blend).

I should emphasise again that I am strictly an espresso drinker, and these might have made great brewed coffees or milk drinks. I have given HB a good chance and they have failed me. Londinium, on the other hand, have got the formula right. IMHO.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

RoloD I am also an espresso drinker as I think milk just ruins coffee.

If you are inclined, give Has Bean Bolivian Copacabana a shot for espresso (pun intended).

Very different sweetness to any other coffee and if you get the right extraction, not too acidic at all. Sunshine in a shot glass









This particular coffee for me wasn't as special as brewed coffee but excelled as espresso.

I had Tapped and Packed's own Has Bean blend, blonde on blonde or something like that and it was pretty nice but not that special.

I prefer Jailbreak.

Do you know which cafes serve Londinium beans?


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## 20Eyes (Mar 16, 2011)

For me, it's hard to beat Has Bean's roasting ethos for brewed coffee - I almost always get the feeling I'm tasting the coffee rather than the roast (although, I suppose it could be argued that by not tasting the roast you are tasting the roast in a way...)

When it comes to espresso, I do find a there are plenty of roasters who provide superior product for my tastes.

I couldn't ever really imagine ordering all my beans from one supplier, there are just too many options and too many variables for any one supplier to be able to get everything right IMO.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Do Has Bean have a 'style' when it comes to roast? I thought the ethos is about setting the roast to suit the individual coffee, to let the coffee shine, its origin , terrior, characteristics.


That is obviously the aim for all roasters (or should be) but obviously the decision as to when the point at which the optimal roast has been achieved is down to the roaster and their preference. We all have different tastes so two roasters with the same beans will come up with a different roast profile based on personal preference as to what is the best end product. This then defines the style of the roaster.

Neither is right or wrong, just different and will be liked and loathed by the individual purchaser. In the end trying different styles and finding what works for your tastes is all part of the fun


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

I think largely its a matter of taste. Some people just can't get past the higher acidity usually found in a lighter roast. I also think lighter roasts are more challenging to get the best out of them. You have to be a little obsessive to nail some of them. This might explain some of those who favour a darker roast, but probably not the likes of experienced espresso drinkers such as Expo and RoloD.

I completely agree with Gary though in that a darker roast will subdue / remove some of the individual characteristics of these amazing beans.

Personally I favour a darker roast in milk, but generally prefer the lighter as espresso. I know Expo finds it the other way round. So that must be simply a difference in taste / preference.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Do Has Bean have a 'style' when it comes to roast? I thought the ethos is about setting the roast to suit the individual coffee, to let the coffee shine, its origin , terrior, characteristics. This might sacrifice its suitibility for easy espresso production. They could go a little darker, make it easier to extract but then loose what is unique about that farms coffee and you may as well be drinking any generic xyz.


This is totally bang on explanation of what Has Bean do in my opinion. I think Steve gets a coffee on the cupping table and possibly determines the best roast profile for that coffee.

On IMM he always tastes as espresso and brewed but more often than not will say this coffee shines as brewed etc, rarely it shine as espresso. This is proof that he is not roasting for brewing method but instead roasting to maximise the potential of the fantastic coffees he buys.

Other places roast (like Londinium) for the brewing method and perhaps find coffees that suit a roasting profile or style.

Not really thought of it this way before. Still, I think the aromas from the grinds can be found in espresso if extracted properly so if you are getting good smells, you'll get a good shot. But I have wasted entire 250g trying to dial in some Has Beans only to nail it on the last shot.

Bet I'm not the only one.


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## Toucan (Aug 16, 2012)

I do also wonder if the trend for brighter, fruitier espressos is too much for me. I enjoy a lot of has bean's beans brewed, but I'm having difficulty loving them as espresso. I enjoy tasting the different flavours but I don't love the product as a whole.

The best espressos I've made for myself at home over the last month of espresso machine ownership have been with beans from Algerian Coffee Stores who can only be described as the oldest of schools. Perhaps that's just the taste I've acquired over the years of drinking espresso from Italians in small shops in London, but it's the taste I like.

I've ordered some beans from Londinium and will check back in in a few days with results!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Toucan said:


> I do also wonder if the trend for brighter, fruitier espressos is too much for me. I enjoy a lot of has bean's beans brewed, but I'm having difficulty loving them as espresso. I enjoy tasting the different flavours but I don't love the product as a whole.


 Indeed, it is a trend, a fashion and light roasts do bring out a whole range of flavours if treated with skill and care. I just don't like many of those bright/fruity/citrus flavours - I prefer the chocolate/tobacco/nut end of the spectrum - or, dare I say, coffee that tastes of coffee.



> The best espressos I've made for myself at home over the last month of espresso machine ownership have been with beans from Algerian Coffee Stores who can only be described as the oldest of schools. Perhaps that's just the taste I've acquired over the years of drinking espresso from Italians in small shops in London, but it's the taste I like.


Algerian are at the other end of the spectrum - most of their roasts are far too dark for me. Although I've always liked classic Italian espresso, I feel increasingly I want more flavour, more depth. There is a happy medium between the two ends of the spectrum but, unfortuanately, it's not reflected in most coffee shops which are either proudly third wave (light and fruity) or staunchly traditional (Italian and burnt).


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

One thing I have amended in months of late is my approach to resting coffee.

If you think a coffee is too acidic , too bright , too sour etc...let it rest for 7 days, hell let it rest 10 days. All my Has Bean purchases are rested for 7 days minimum and i'm getting better results.

If a coffee is a little darker then I dont find it needs resting as much


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RoloD said:


> All I can say is that I've bought around 12 different bags from HasBean and almost all disappointed. The worst was an earlier version of Blake (which is meant to be 'old school') which I found literally undrinkable, the best the Christmas special and Breakfast Bomb (undersold as a caffeine hit). Jailbreak I find OK, but too sharp for my taste - whether I brew it at home or try it in cafés. I had a really dreadful HB espresso from Tapped & Packed (I think it was Guatemalan), the best HB espresso at Fernandez and Wells (F & W special blend).
> 
> I should emphasise again that I am strictly an espresso drinker, and these might have made great brewed coffees or milk drinks. I have given HB a good chance and they have failed me. Londinium, on the other hand, have got the formula right. IMHO.


Its a shame to hear that. I find I dislike approx 1 in 10 I get from Has Bean, I wonder how much of that is down to my error though.

We should all get together round an espresso machine and pass each other shots which we enjoy , genuinely would love to do that


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

tribs said:


> I think largely its a matter of taste. Some people just can't get past the higher acidity usually found in a lighter roast. I also think lighter roasts are more challenging to get the best out of them. You have to be a little obsessive to nail some of them. This might explain some of those who favour a darker roast, but probably not the likes of experienced espresso drinkers such as Expo and RoloD.
> 
> .


Agreed.

Isnt is an absolutely stupid concept to say ''how dare you enjoy something that tastes like xyz''

People like Marmite for example, fools ; )


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Its a shame to hear that. I find I dislike approx 1 in 10 I get from Has Bean, I wonder how much of that is down to my error though.
> 
> We should all get together round an espresso machine and pass each other shots which we enjoy , genuinely would love to do that


I'm looking at Luke and his new Duetto.....Shot session, bring your own beans









Alternatively I'm trying to get Nick to organise the Square Mile trip.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

fatboyslim said:


> I'm looking at Luke and his new Duetto.....Shot session, bring your own beans
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you can all get down to Gillingham then by all means! Might be a bit of a drive for some though


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I think the debate over roast level and bean choice for espresso really comes down to taste. I don't get on with high acidity in espresso despite appreciating the flavours underneath. It took a trip to a particular roastery and also to a high-end cafe for me to realise that it wasn't my skills at fault, just don't like that style. The espresso I had in Colonna's was annoying, because underneath that unpleasant lemon hit were beautiful plum flavours. But, for me, it verged on the undrinkable.

I don't really know what HasBean are up to this year with regards to roast level, I've not had any of their stuff. I do rue the years past when they had what seemed to me to be a much wider range of coffees. Last time I looked their portfolio was heavily centred around Americans, particularly centrals.

For me, for espresso, I'll take what works, but for brewed coffee I think Africa is where it is at. The last outstanding brewed coffee I had was from Square Mile. It was called Guji Espresso.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> If you can all get down to Gillingham then by all means! Might be a bit of a drive for some though


Only £14 return from St. Pancras! I'd be up for that considering how much it cost to get down to Bristol for the Extract day...

I'll bring some Workshop/St Ali. Beans


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