# Coffeesnobs



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It makes you laugh! A few months ago, I got into a keyboard battle on the topic of the L1. The site is heavily sponsored and one of the 'big boys' imported an L1 Luxe. Allegedly it arrived damaged, but apart from that, with so many faults on it that it was unusable. So, it was put back in its box, shoved on the corner and forgotten about (at a cost of over £2000!). Then one day, one of his mates ambles in and says, hey mate, whats in that box over there? Oh, I had forgotten about that. It is my duff L1. tell you what mate, you take it away and write a thorough review of it for our forum. Say anything you like about it! So he did, and what followed was the most one sided attempt at bashing a product you have ever seen. I am not saying that there was no truth in some of the content, but not in how it was portrayed.

So, I posted and suggested that the whole thing was a setup, based on the fact that Londinium did not want to create an Australia agent to import the machines which would put the price up. I was castigated etc etc. I argued a bit. One chap came on in what seemed to be my defence and said if it looks like a duck and waddles then it probably is a duck.

Anyway, on reading the Londinium blog tonight, more of the story has come out casting further doubts on the claims of innocence of a certain person.

http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/8421953-the-londinium-i-is-an-incredibly-thermally-stable-lever-espresso-machine-even-in-its-original-form

They have retaliated by innocently asking a forum sponsor, an expert, none the less to put right all the L1 faults, which has included a re design and a re-fit of many parts, and now it works better than a standard machine! If you want a laugh, have a read

http://coffeesnobs.com.au/brewing-equipment-extreme-machines-3000/35581-londinium-l1-luxe-edition-evolution.html

Then, to make matters more laughable, when I logged on to see any reaction to the blog, I have been banned (some months after the event) although the thread is still there but with my posts removed. Shame the bosses had neither the curteousy or balls to email me but post a cowardly sniveling pop up.......all I can say, is well done the Lions and who holds the Ashes!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I saw the posts where they were calling it the australium or some such nonsense. Utter twaddle


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

What's odd is when I bought my first serious setup (2008), Home Barista was full of t***s so I went to CoffeeSnobs and got some great impartial advice.

Now as you say it seems to be heavily sponsored and if you aren't buying a machine from the sponsors then you are the enemy, and although still with a high population of t***s HB has mellowed. There was another Aussie forum that came to the same conclusion and was much more fair about the L1, with a few member buying them and sharing tips.

Of course there is no need to add a double boiler to your L1 to make it useable, and certainly no need whatsoever for a PID!

The fact that 90%+ of owners have no problem whatsoever with the L1 and have great stability seems to have gone over their heads completely.


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## Southpaw (Feb 26, 2012)

My brain always reads the web address without the first s









Time to go down under and have a read. There are many commercially sponsored forums that seem to poo poo anything not from a sponsoring company.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

The CoffeeSnobs thing started at the very beginning - before the first LI came of the production line - when they were all going on about how ugly the LI was before they had ever seen one (it's also worth noting there is a substantial mark-up on Italian espresso machines in Australia, so there is a lot of profit at stake). Unfortuanately Reiss, although he offers fantastic customer service and has enormous integrity, isn't the most diplomatic guy on the planet. Sometimes these discussions escalate to personal insults, which doesn't do either side any favours but, at the same time, I can understand how Reiss gets so wound up. A similar thing happened on Home-Barista when a guy who imported a competing machine, the Strega, started comparing to two machines without declaring his commercial interest (he was reprimanded by the site).

The design concept of the LI is very simple - take a top of the range commercial lever group and put onto a proven thermosyphon HX system in a solid stainless steel box. It works and the coffee that comes out of it tastes great. There's not much else to say about it, really.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Read the stuff on the Oz site about LI and I know this and stuff on HB in America has caused Reiss some grief to put it mildly. Reiss is utterly passionate about what he does and bringing LI to market was no mean achievement for a one man enterprise. Price-wise, by not having to go through a middle man, each LI customer has saved him or herself several hundred pounds and I, for one, count myself fortunate to have one of the very best shot making machines at a bargain price. Reiss has, unfortunately, set himself up in some regards with his comments and claims about LI which, inevitably, have been pounced upon by some wanting to debunk them. Some quality control issues and problems haven't helped and given added fuel to those who have an undeclared vested interest as is in the case of the Oz commentator. The cry used to be whinging poms - should that now be whinging ozzy?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agree TSK, how many other one mad bands have tried to bring a machine like this to market ? It's easy for people to review , knock, pull apart or criticise when they don't actively, produce something from scratch themselves.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This is all about greed, as the business model used does not reward the middleman, then the site owner is not wanting anything to come along and disrupt his little business interests. They think they are so clever in the way that they have orchestrated this, but, it looks like apart from some of our over dosing american friends, and ignoring build quality issues that we all know about, no one else in the world has decided to fit a second boiler and a PID to make it usable. Still, the Australians are so insular and paranoid, they are only preaching to themselves as a captive audience. I say **** them and if they want to run scared under the illusion that the machines old bushy beard sells are the best cos he supplied them, then that's there problem.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

Despite all the BS, I find the PID a very convenient addiction. I know that the L1 concept is to be as simple as possible, but add a PID would be so complex? I think the benefits worth it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Pid suggests temperature instability. Why would you want to have a facility on a lever. Can you expand a bit please


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Viernes said:


> Despite all the BS, I find the PID a very convenient addiction. I know that the L1 concept is to be as simple as possible, but add a PID would be so complex? I think the benefits worth it.


What would it tell you?


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Adding a PID would go directly against the machine's core design philosophy and shouldn't be necessary anyway as I understand it. It would just seem wrong :/


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

The word is versatility.

I don't want a PID because group temp instability (which I'm pretty sure the L1 has no problem) but for brewing temperature selection. AFAIK the L1 restricts the range of roast degree (some roasts work better than others) probably due to the impossibility of brewing temp selection.

I usually play with my Duetto PID, from 89 to 95, from a dark Izzo Neapolitan coffee to an ultra light Has Bean roast. I'd love to do something like this with an L1... Is probably this issue what makes me not to decide to purchase an L1 yet...


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Not only that, a PID just wouldn't work. In the LI, the mass of the lever group cools down the boiler water to brew temperature and the thermosyphon keeps the temperature of the water circulating through the group stable. Just keeping the water in the boiler at a constant temperature (which is what a PID aims to do) just wouldn't do the job. Also, an HX system like the Londinium's uses a pressurestat to measure to maintain boiler temperature which (as I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong) is a better way to do it than just measuring the temperature at one point in the boiler, as PID systems do (water and steam being poor conductors of heat).


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

E61 groups have some mass too (not like the lever of course) and works well with a PID. If the L1 group have more mass, I suppose that it only needs more time to reflect the temperature changes?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Having tasted coffees which have displayed much more palatable attributes at both extremes of the useful temp scale (88-96C) I would feel limited without one.

Do all coffees taste great via lever machines with a fixed temperature?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The temperature is not fixed, it declines as does the pressure although e the start temp will remain constant, I guess it just works Gary but def not the machine for you


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Having tasted coffees which have displayed much more palatable attributes at both extremes of the useful temp scale (88-96C) I would feel limited without one.
> 
> Do all coffees taste great via lever machines with a fixed temperature?


It depends what you mean by "fixed temperature". Lever machines with open thermosyphons will always have a substantial intra-shot temperature swing. That is, at the start of the shot the temperature is at its highest before it tails off by quite a few degrees as the shot progresses. In some quarters this is viewed as a defect, particularly on pump/HX machines. On open thermosyphon levers this is considered to its secret sauce - the declining pressure and temperature profiles combine to act gently on the coffee as the shot progresses. This is why the effectiveness of PID's on levers is limiting as the offset between the boiler and the group is never constant during a shot. I guess if nothing else you might be able to get a repeatable "starting point" with a PID on a lever which you could then map its expected profile from there. But that is the best you'll get. Is it really necessary? I dont reckon.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

On a standard commercially stable pump machine - coffee A tastes great at 89c but dull at 96c and coffee B the exact opposite. . . This might be two coffees with similar roast profiles .

You're saying , due to the nature of declining pressure and temp , both coffee A and B will both shine at their optimum on the lever regardless of its operating temperature ?

I wonder if slayer owners (who fully exploit its power) ever change their PID settings .

Interesting point about my trip to Italy. The best espresso we tried was from a lever machine , although the overall standard was shockingly poor !

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, to a simpleton like me, who understands what others write and explain, am I wrong to suggest that the Pid modification to supposedly make the l1 a better machine, was perhaps not as sound a bit of engineering as reported?


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> You're saying , due to the nature of declining pressure and temp , both coffee A and B will both shine at their optimum on the lever regardless of its operating temperature ?


Not necessarily. Undeniably some coffees will work better with flat temp profiles, others less so. The sweet spot on the spring lever is wide and forgiving which is part of the appeal.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

There are also theories about how the column of water pressing down on the grounds in a lever group creates a better extraction than the more turbulent water from a pump and that the gentle pre-infusion in a lever group is somehow better than that in a pump machine. I have know idea whether these are myths or whether there is some science behind them.

As ziobeege_72 says, the sweet spot on the spring lever is wide and forgiving. But if you are more interested in tweaking the temperature for light-roasted 'challenging' beans that are undrinkable if the parameters are not right (and extraordinary when they are), then a lever group is probably not for you. For the range of beans I like the LI can not be beaten - in fact the espresso I buy now in coffee shops I find constantly disappointing. The great thing about a lever group is that it seems to get the best out of beans without having to fiddle with the temperature, but I accept this approach may not work for everyone.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Viernes said:


> E61 groups have some mass too (not like the lever of course) and works well with a PID. If the L1 group have more mass, I suppose that it only needs more time to reflect the temperature changes?


As I understand it, on a dual-boiler machine, the brew water circulates through the system at brew temperature and the aim is to keep that temperature constant (I'm not talking about sophisticated commercial machines with temperature/pressure profiling). On a lever HX the cooling effect of the group also creates the declining temperature profile during extraction. HX systems are pretty good at maintaining temperature, what they are not so good at is having an adjustable temperature which is, or course, the advantage of a PID control. But PIDs just don't really work with single-boiler HX systems.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

RoloD said:


> As I understand it, on a dual-boiler machine, the brew water circulates through the system at brew temperature and the aim is to keep that temperature constant (I'm not talking about sophisticated commercial machines with temperature/pressure profiling). On a lever HX the cooling effect of the group also creates the declining temperature profile during extraction. HX systems are pretty good at maintaining temperature, what they are not so good at is having an adjustable temperature which is, or course, the advantage of a PID control. But PIDs just don't really work with single-boiler HX systems.


People with Gaggias Classic and Silvias have them PID'ed and AFAIK it works to select the temperature you need for a specific bean.

I know about the declining brew temperature "feature" of the levers, try to flat them would be probably counterproductive, but that's not the point; as I said, the point is stablish a brew temperature to suit the bean/roast. Yes, there's a declining temperature during the shot, but for example, if you are brewing a coffee which tastes too sour/underextracted because your lever starts the brew at 92ºC and ends at 88ºC, why not setting the machine to start brewing 94ºC? The temperature will be higher during the shot and probably it will be more adequate to that bean/roast.

To put in another way, what I'm looking is for an easy way to change the boiler pressure without messing around with the pstat. Using a PID or a simple digital thermostat like the Spaziale Vivaldi use. Why don't have the possibility of enjoy those challenging light roasts that sometimes taste extraordinary?









PS: Perhaps the issue is that the L1 start brew temp is pretty high already to compensate the temp loss during shot, and if it's increased you'll get boiling water? Is just a thought, as I unknow the L1 brew temp.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Viernes said:


> People with Gaggias Classic and Silvias have them PID'ed and AFAIK it works to select the temperature you need for a specific bean.


 I was talking about single boiler HX machines - not thermoblock machines like the Classic or Silvia which work totally differently. Yes, I used to own a PID'd Classic. The POD stabilises the temperature, certainly, but if you think you are really dialling in the temperture to within a degree, you are fooling yourself.

I went from the Classic to an Olympia Cremina, one of the simplest machines you can buy. The difference in quality of shots was extraordinary. You'd forget worrying about digital readouts if you had that experience.



> I know about the declining brew temperature "feature" of the levers, try to flat them would be probably counterproductive, but that's not the point; as I said, the point is stablish a brew temperature to suit the bean/roast. Yes, there's a declining temperature during the shot, but for example, if you are brewing a coffee which tastes too sour/underextracted because your lever starts the brew at 92ºC and ends at 88ºC, why not setting the machine to start brewing 94ºC? The temperature will be higher during the shot and probably it will be more adequate to that bean/roast.
> 
> To put in another way, what I'm looking is for an easy way to change the boiler pressure without messing around with the pstat. Using a PID or a simple digital thermostat like the Spaziale Vivaldi use. Why don't have the possibility of enjoy those challenging light roasts that sometimes taste extraordinary?
> 
> ...


 You can adjust the pressurestat on an LI, but it is something you might do once a year, if ar all, not every week. With a single boiler HX machine temperature and pressure are, of course, interelated so there is a limit to how much you can play around with them (the Vivaldi is a dual-boiler machine).

What you really seem to want is a dual-boiler PID lever machine, perhaps with integral group heating elements to maintain temperature. I think you are going to have to build one yourself...

I do get your point, but in practice it's just a question of whether a lever machine with more or less set temperature or a DB PID machine where you can adjust all the parameters makes the better coffee. You'll have to find your own answer to that question. I know what mine is.


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

I think it's only useful to know a temperature at the start of a shot on a lever if you know how the temperature moves intrashot. Say you have added a PID and the shot starts at 92C. And then you have strapped on a scace and you measure the decline to 86C as the shot unwinds. Great. You then decide to move the temperature up to 94C. Where does the temperature end up at - 88C? 86C? 89C? Does it hit 87C after 13 seconds or 18 seconds shot to shot? Is it always linear? Can ambient temperature effect things by 1C? Dunno. Presumably this level of granularity is important if PIDing is in the frame.

I guess you could take the time to plot various temperature starting points allied with some hardcore scacing. That would allow a temperature profile to be built which you could then predict. All power to people who want to do this.

Most lever users don't see the need or want to do this as it "just works" as is. If something is under extracted then grind and dose are your practical variables. As others have said if temperature management is important (and I am not knocking it) then other machine options would have to be better.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

ziobeege_72 said:


> I think it's only useful to know a temperature at the start of a shot on a lever if you know how the temperature moves intrashot. Say you have added a PID and the shot starts at 92C. And then you have strapped on a scace and you measure the decline to 86C as the shot unwinds. Great. You then decide to move the temperature up to 94C. Where does the temperature end up at - 88C? 86C? 89C? Does it hit 87C after 13 seconds or 18 seconds shot to shot? Is it always linear? Can ambient temperature effect things by 1C? Dunno. Presumably this level of granularity is important if PIDing is in the frame.
> 
> I guess you could take the time to plot various temperature starting points allied with some hardcore scacing. That would allow a temperature profile to be built which you could then predict. All power to people who want to do this.
> 
> Most lever users don't see the need or want to do this as it "just works" as is. If something is under extracted then grind and dose are your practical variables. As others have said if temperature management is important (and I am not knocking it) then other machine options would have to be better.


Alternatively, you could just use the machine to make coffee...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well said Rolo! This is one of the things I do not understand about coffee. Why someone buys something, then immediately takes it apart and tries to make it better. If you use the L1 as directed, it seems to make a belting cuppa. Then others come in with scientific understandings and cloud the issue, which is does it make a decent cuppa?

Tell me if I am wrong, but AndyS who had problems that seemed to come down to dosing would still not swap his L1 for his GS3, with all of its apparent problems.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RoloD said:


> Alternatively, you could just use the machine to make coffee...


Disgusting! does anyone actually drink the stuff?!?! ; )


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Well said Rolo! This is one of the things I do not understand about coffee. Why someone buys something, then immediately takes it apart and tries to make it better. If you use the L1 as directed, it seems to make a belting cuppa. Then others come in with scientific understandings and cloud the issue, which is does it make a decent cuppa?
> 
> Tell me if I am wrong, but AndyS who had problems that seemed to come down to dosing would still not swap his L1 for his GS3, with all of its apparent problems.


That wasn't my recollection of AndyS's issue, wasn't it stalling of the TS (now rectified) & I thought he had a Speedster?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I've also heard it said that Kees van der Westen thinks PIDs are a load of nonsense but puts them on his machine because the customers expect them. (It's also worth reading why he also thinks lever machines make a superior extraction)


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Viernes said:


> Why don't have the possibility of enjoy those challenging light roasts that sometimes taste extraordinary?.


When Reiss launched LI, he tweaked his roast profiles for it. I would wonder if any PID E61 set could match the shot quality of LI using beans best suited for levers. Whether the same would apply for lighter roast beans - probably not. Adding PID control to a lever to vary temp for lighter roasts would be, as Reiss put it, crossing the divide from analogue to digital. Guess if you want to tweak - the machine for you is a PID E61.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> That wasn't my recollection of AndyS's issue, wasn't it stalling of the TS (now rectified) & I thought he had a Speedster?


Wasn't he overdosing and pre-infusing for many, many seconds (outside the machine's parameters) which caused the thermosyphon to stall?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> That wasn't my recollection of AndyS's issue, wasn't it stalling of the TS (now rectified) & I thought he had a Speedster?


yes, probably a Speedster but the point is it was a high end machine. His problems were as TSK says, overdosing causing stalling. the advice for the L1, is to maximum dose 15.8 gms or thereabouts. he was going well past that and there was not enough water in the group to deal with the expected shot volume.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

RoloD said:


> I was talking about single boiler HX machines - not thermoblock machines like the Classic or Silvia which work totally differently. Yes, I used to own a PID'd Classic. The POD stabilises the temperature, certainly, but if you think you are really dialling in the temperture to within a degree, you are fooling yourself.


I don't think you can adjust to degree. But I tasted shots from PIDed Gaggias and I know you can adjust temperature to suit somehow one coffee or other.



> You can adjust the pressurestat on an LI, but it is something you might do once a year, if ar all, not every week. With a single boiler HX machine temperature and pressure are, of course, interelated so there is a limit to how much you can play around with them (the Vivaldi is a dual-boiler machine).


With my current coffee habits I could adjust the pstat 2 times a day. I usually prefer dark coffee in the morning and light in the evening. So it's not a good option


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

RoloD said:


> I've also heard it said that Kees van der Westen thinks PIDs are a load of nonsense but puts them on his machine because the customers expect them. (It's also worth reading why he also thinks lever machines make a superior extraction)


Like what you can do on a slayer?


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> When Reiss launched LI, he tweaked his roast profiles for it. I would wonder if any PID E61 set could match the shot quality of LI using beans best suited for levers. Whether the same would apply for lighter roast beans - probably not. Adding PID control to a lever to vary temp for lighter roasts would be, as Reiss put it, crossing the divide from analogue to digital. Guess if you want to tweak - the machine for you is a PID E61.


Problem is I don't want to buy a machine and be forced to buy only beans of one specific roaster. That doesn't make any sense to me. That's why I talked about versatility. Trying new coffees, new flavors, new experiencies is something essential of this hobby for me.

This does not mean that I don't like Reiss roasts of course. I wrote him some time ago saying how much I enjoyed his coffee due to his roasts are pretty balanced, not follow the 3rd ultra light roasts which sometimes are undrinkable. My email was published in his blog.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> the advice for the L1, is to maximum dose 15.8 gms or thereabouts.


Max dose 15.8? What? could you elaborate more please?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I do not buy any Londinium beans. I do buy darker roasted beans normally now. When I was a pump machine owner, I preferred lighter roasts.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Viernes said:


> Max dose 15.8? What? could you elaborate more please?


Reiss is documented as saying that the ideal weight is 15.8 gms when using the stock baskets. He has widened that on his last update to this advice;

If you have a LONDINIUM I i look forward to hearing from you after you have reduced your pre-infusion time to 3 seconds. A 14-18g dose, 3 seconds pre-infusion, coffee should flow within about 3 seconds of releasing the lever if it is to extract correctly, then 27 seconds from the shot flowing until the shot blonds, with a resultant brew weight of around 25g

http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/1095922-guidelines-for-getting-the-best-out-of-your-londinium-coffee

We deliberately haven't called them instructions as we don't know what equipment you might be using, your level of experience, or indeed how you like your coffee to taste, so they we have used the somewhat more flexible term; 'guidelines'.

To those customers who have been forced to contact us in desperation please accept our apologies as we have been lax in not publishing any guidelines before now

Feel free to experiment, or indeed ignore completely if you aren't new to the espresso game.

For example, some Antipodean baristas will be found grinding more coarsely and using all manner of brute force on the tamp to jam in as much as 23g of coffee in a double basket. This is equally valid, just a different style.

Oh, and while we are on the subject of dose weights, if you are wondering why the coffee tastes so grim at your local cafe one of the reasons is likely to be low dose weight. It is not uncommon in for cafes lacking a specific interest in coffee to wind the shot dose down to 5.5 or even 5.0g per shot. This basically results in too much being taken from the coffee (another form of over-extraction if you like), and unsurprisingly their commitment to thrift results in you struggling to finish another disgusting espresso that is burnt and bitter.

1. We suggest 8g of ground coffee for a single shot and 16g for a double shot. These weights are important so verify with fine scales

2. One shot is approx 30ml, two shots 60ml. These volumes are important so calibrate your coffee cup(s) with measuring spoons or similar

3. You need a good burr grinder for espresso (i.e. not a blade grinder)

4. You want an extraction time of 22 to 25 seconds. If you are outside of this range we suggest that you keep the pressure on the tamp constant and only vary the setting of your grinder (finer if your extraction times are less than 22s and coarser if your extraction times are greater than 25s)


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> I do not buy any Londinium beans. I do buy darker roasted beans normally now. When I was a pump machine owner, I preferred lighter roasts.


Good to know it. Why the change?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Viernes said:


> Max dose 15.8? What? could you elaborate more please?


In Reiss's blog as recently as July, he was suggesting 14-18g doses.

I thought the updosing issues related to Australian practices? I seem to recall AndyS specifically stressing the importance of modest doses & fine grinding to hit his preferred sweetspot? I could stand to be corrected.

I don't mean to drag this issue out, but if we are attributing specific anomalies & oversights to specific parties, we should be sure & accurate in what we say. Y'know how the web works with oft repeated thoughts becoming accepted as "truth". ;-)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Because my taste changed as I found the L1 seemed to extract a different set of flavours from the lighter beans than my Expobar. On advice, j started drifting darker and now much prefer the fuller flavour than the fruity, acidic lighter beans.

You need to put an L1 side by side with a pump machine and sample different beans through them to appreciate the way the lever extracts a different profile


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

[i don't mean to drag this issue out, but if we are attributing specific anomalies & oversights to specific parties, we should be sure & accurate in what we say. Y'know how the web works with oft repeated thoughts becoming accepted as "truth". ;-)

Funny how you seem constantly to have a go at me...still, I have broad shoulders. I think you find on page 4 of this thread, the Systemic Kid says,

'Wasn't he overdosing and pre-infusing for many, many seconds (outside the machine's parameters) which caused the thermosyphon to stall? ' yet you did not pick him up with an assertion that I thought correct. If you really feel the need, please go back through the various threads and prove Patrick and I wrong, and therefore your comments to me in thread 42 are valid.......


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

FWIW I've had some great shots of Has Bean coffee and SQM sweetshop from the L1. It can handle light roasts, although you will grind finer than you have ever ground before









One of the reasons I bought the L1 was simplicity, heat it up and pull a shot - no faffing around with flushes or PIDs.

That said the last bag of Londinium I had tasted stunning from the L1.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

On a lever, the more you dose, the longer you need to pre-infuse, which if left too long causes the thermosyphon to stall, which brings us back to Riess and his recommended dosing levels


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'm not having a go at you/Patrick/Reiss/Londinium/levers, or anything/anyone else. Long preinfusions do seem to be relevant.

You attributed a specific failure with a specific person's technique, in a public place. You may well be right (though, like I said, it seems to conflict with other things I have read about AndyS' MO), I haven't read every single post in every forum on AndyS's issues (his last post in the Londinium temperature thread seems to say all that is needed, in that his Londinium is performing correctly, makes great espresso & is a joy to use)...so, feel free to back up what you are saying with a reference & will publicly apologise to you, as I would anyone else (I make mistakes and I am happy to be picked up on & discuss them, perhaps I'll learn something from the discussion).

As far as I am concerned this point isn't about PID/E61/levers...it's about treating people fairly, as we would like be treated ourselves.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Viernes said:


> Problem is I don't want to buy a machine and be forced to buy only beans of one specific roaster. That doesn't make any sense to me. That's why I talked about versatility. Trying new coffees, new flavors, new experiencies is something essential of this hobby for me.
> 
> This does not mean that I don't like Reiss roasts of course. I wrote him some time ago saying how much I enjoyed his coffee due to his roasts are pretty balanced, not follow the 3rd ultra light roasts which sometimes are undrinkable. My email was published in his blog.


 Let's get rid of this notion that the LI or a similar lever machine restricts you. Yes, it doesn't allow you to play around with as many of the parameters as a DB machine but, overall, it gets the best out of a wide range of beans. It is forgiving. It brings flavours out of the beans that other machines don't. I could say the worst extractions from the LI are better than the best extractions from a Classic, but that would be generalising a bit too far (although it is line with my experience). Personally, I don't think enjoying espresso has much to do with playing around with different temperatures. There may well be some beans that just don't suit the LI, but I haven't found them - or, rather, they are not the sort of beans I like anyway.

What I have found with the LI is that it does bring out a wide spectrum of flavours so if a bean is, say, over roasted you really notice it. So, slightly contrary to dfk41's experience, I have gone for slightly lighter roasts with the LI. But I'm not one for, say, Square Mile's journey into sherbet territory. I think you will find any machine at a domestic price level will be better with some beans than others. To get a truly versatile machine maybe you need something like a Slayer or a Synesso...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> ...so, feel free to back up what you are saying with a reference & will publicly apologise to you, as I would anyone else (I make mistakes and I am happy to be picked up on & discuss them, perhaps I'll learn something from the discussion).


http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/7689983-to-whom-it-may-concern


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MWJB said:


> I'm not having a go at you/Patrick/Reiss/Londinium/levers, or anything/anyone else. Long preinfusions do seem to be relevant.
> 
> 
> > Thank you Systemic Kid, I believe I concurred on the point regarding long preinfusions. There is no mention of excessive dosing in the link that you provide.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Its interesting that what started as a recognition of the bias on another forum has again caused a bit of disagreement amongst members here.

It seems that any thread about the L1's performance ends up causing a stir one way or another!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Having spoken personally to reiss, post his extensive examination of the l1 temperature issues, the specific conclusion was that pre infusion times that were excessive, attributed to the stalling of the thermosyphon, he also states pd that clearly the higher the dose the longer the required pre- infusion, thus dosing at 18 grams plus, which is andys's preference will cause issues with the thermosyphon, that said I am sure Andy has solved all issues with the L1 and has found his own preferred methodology for using it.

The basic fact remains high doses mean longer pre infusion with means problems with thermosyphon s on levers......


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> Its interesting that what started as a recognition of the bias on another forum has again caused a bit of disagreement amongst members here.
> 
> It seems that any thread about the L1's performance ends up causing a stir one way or another!


Here here, it does seem like a rather controversial machine that even the brewed brethren like to get involved in..


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

So L1 people craving the 18/20/22g VSTs were wasting their time all along?

One observation - the overall spec of equipment on this forum is far far higher than it was 12-18 months ago & yet nobody seems any happier or at peace


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

I came across a mention of AndyS on Reiss' blog last night. He apologised to Andy in this post and said in the end they got to the bottom of the problem and have developed an upgrade to prevent it happening which has been fitted to all L1's shipped since.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> So L1 people craving the 18/20/22g VSTs were wasting their time all along?
> 
> One observation - the overall spec of equipment on this forum is far far higher than it was 12-18 months ago & yet nobody seems any happier or at peace


Actually I use both an 18 and experiment with a 20 dosing at 18 with extra headroom, gives me many more variables 15 and 18 seem the best options which is what most of the l1 owners purchased and I love my current set up, it seems people that don't have this set up want to comment on it more than people that own it..


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> So L1 people craving the 18/20/22g VSTs were wasting their time all along?
> 
> One observation - the overall spec of equipment on this forum is far far higher than it was 12-18 months ago & yet nobody seems any happier or at peace


I remember back when the average person had a classic and an mc2!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

It would seem the better kit we get the more vocal we become


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> I remember back when the average person had a classic and an mc2!
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


Everyone was happy, those quality 20-30 minutes just to make 2 milk drinks.....ah good times : )

I remember being the first to purchase a Royal from a completely bemused Martin Cardwardine & almost being branded an insane heretic on here. Now everyone has a better set-up than Prufrock.

In 12 months time it'll come full circle. Mortar and Pestle + Bodum mk1 french-press.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Actually I use both an 18 and experiment with a 20 dosing at 18 with extra headroom, gives me many more variables 15 and 18 seem the best options which is what most of the l1 owners purchased and I love my current set up, it seems people that don't have this set up want to comment on it more than people that own it..


I tend to go 19.5g in the 20g VST and yet 18.5g in the 18g VST - differing mouthfeel and yet only a gram difference. I love both but would keep the 20g if choosing only one


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> So L1 people craving the 18/20/22g VSTs were wasting their time all along?
> 
> One observation - the overall spec of equipment on this forum is far far higher than it was 12-18 months ago & yet nobody seems any happier or at peace


Can't speak for anyone else , but I'm happy with the l1 , I neither have the time , nor the skill to fiddle with temps according to roast level etc.

I'm not saying it isn't worth doing , or nay saying the result that you get from it. It's just not for me , same as not being able to do it on an L1 isn't for you.

My coffee knowledge and skills are quite limited in comparison to not people on here, and I learn lots from all posts from people with all different machines and set ups.

In the end , I suspect we are both very happy with the coffee we drink so it's all good. Personally I never thought I would be capable of making espresso that tasted so tasty , my set up allows me to do it with the minimum of fuss


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Can't speak for anyone else , but I'm happy with the l1 , I neither have the time , nor the skill to fiddle with temps according to roast level etc.
> 
> I'm not saying it isn't worth doing , or nay saying the result that you get from it. It's just not for me , same as not being able to do it on an L1 isn't for you.
> 
> ...


My observation wasnt around the L1 at all really. Just a stepping-back-comment on the wood rather than the trees which are being bickered over.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> My observation wasnt around the L1 at all really. Just a stepping-back-comment on the wood rather than the trees which are being bickered over.


Yeah I kinda guessed that , my comments were in the same vein , just badly expressed. In my own cack handed way I was trying to say buying my stuff had made me happy







. If your stuff makes you great coffee does it matter what the person next to you has ?

I'd still like a slayer or speedster to go alongside my L1 , I'm just not sure I'd known how to work it


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

My kit is like an old pair of slippers, its second nature - so in tune with it now, its difficult to change.

The noisy, clunky, analogue, manual -weighing, brushing of the Royal. The growl and rattle of the Expo..... would I change it? Hmmm.... I came close to a commercial 2 group, looking back i'm kind of glad it slipped by. What I have does everything I ask of it.


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> In 12 months time it'll come full circle. Mortar and Pestle + Bodum mk1 french-press.


Isn't that what's going on with the Arrarex Caravels?







(this is jealousy - I want one!)

On the Londinium side of things this blog entry goes a long way to explaining why Reiss and his equipment attract such a mixed reception... http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/8947435-if-you-want-to-enjoy-single-origin-espresso

I'm sure he's a very nice guy and that the L1 is top notch but it's not difficult to see why his manner might rub some people up the wrong way!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Lol @ that post...short and to the point! I definately need to spend some time playing on an L1 but only with a coffee im truely familiar with and enjoy.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I might have an Arrarex Caravel for sale soon


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> So L1 people craving the 18/20/22g VSTs were wasting their time all along?
> 
> One observation - the overall spec of equipment on this forum is far far higher than it was 12-18 months ago & yet nobody seems any happier or at peace


I'm happy







I also have lots of chocolate


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> I might have an Arrarex Caravel for sale soon


How much? I could be interested.

No I'm not selling the musica people


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I might have an Arrarex Caravel for sale soon


Oo, keep me posted, might even be able to save couriering as I'm long overdue a visit to an old friend in Newcastle!


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

aaronb said:


> FWIW I've had some great shots of Has Bean coffee and SQM sweetshop from the L1. It can handle light roasts, although you will grind finer than you have ever ground before
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks.







What dose are you using for HB and SqM?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Geordie and Nimble, I have 2. 1 gets used, the other is like brand new and just for show and to stroke from time to time!

Once my grinder situation is sorted, I will alert you if it is going to be sold.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I need to sort my grinder situation too, one of those would be a fabulous addition to my coffee bench.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

RoloD said:


> Let's get rid of this notion that the LI or a similar lever machine restricts you. Yes, it doesn't allow you to play around with as many of the parameters as a DB machine but, overall, it gets the best out of a wide range of beans. It is forgiving. It brings flavours out of the beans that other machines don't. I could say the worst extractions from the LI are better than the best extractions from a Classic, but that would be generalising a bit too far (although it is line with my experience). Personally, I don't think enjoying espresso has much to do with playing around with different temperatures. There may well be some beans that just don't suit the LI,* but I haven't found them* - or, rather, they are not the sort of beans I like anyway.
> 
> What I have found with the LI is that it does bring out a wide spectrum of flavours so if a bean is, say, over roasted you really notice it. So, slightly contrary to dfk41's experience, I have gone for slightly lighter roasts with the LI. But I'm not one for, say, Square Mile's journey into sherbet territory. I think you will find any machine at a domestic price level will be better with some beans than others. To get a truly versatile machine maybe you need something like a Slayer or a Synesso...


lol

Then, why we are discussing?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Nimble Motionists said:


> On the Londinium side of things this blog entry goes a long way to explaining why Reiss and his equipment attract such a mixed reception... http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/8947435-if-you-want-to-enjoy-single-origin-espresso


Comes across like a bit of a coffeenob until you realise his blog is essentially a sales pitch...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Having spoken personally to reiss, post his extensive examination of the l1 temperature issues, the specific conclusion was that pre infusion times that were excessive, attributed to the stalling of the thermosyphon, he also states pd that clearly the higher the dose the longer the required pre- infusion, thus dosing at 18 grams plus, which is andys's preference will cause issues with the thermosyphon, that said I am sure Andy has solved all issues with the L1 and has found his own preferred methodology for using it.
> 
> The basic fact remains high doses mean longer pre infusion with means problems with thermosyphon s on levers......


Oh, God...

When I get rid of a doubt, another one appears...









What's the max. preinfusion time?

Is not possible to pull doses of +18? 21 for example.

This is important, not only the aussies use high doses, americans too. I know Vince Fedele (from VSTApps) likes to use doses of 22-23 grams.

Sorry if I'm bothering you guys, but here is not possible try an L1 without purchase it. Thanks.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Not bothering at all, the l1 is not suited to higher dosing, but a perfect extraction can be achieved from a 7 gram dose, I haven't really got many great results from dosing over 20 grams on any machine, perhaps it is the American preference to drink huge cos of coffee that require a large dose, why not just pull a second shot?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

lookseehear said:


> Comes across like a bit of a coffeenob until you realise his blog is essentially a sales pitch...
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


It might well be his means to sell his products but don't a lot of sellers do this, his blog has many useful aspects as well, do you think you will ever be inclined to a own an l1, as your routes began with a tin man, or are you inclined towards pump driven machines now, it would appear that people are either one or the other.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Not being an expert, but if the group on an L1 only holds 40 to 45 mls of water, then allowing for whatever amount the puck holds, a single lever pull is going to give you quite a bit less than that. A pump machine will push water through for as long as the boiler can produce it. So, a larger dose lets you produce a larger shot, but not on a lever machine!

Personally, I dose at around 16 gms. My grinder is set to 3.6 seconds currently. I collect the first 20 seconds or so of the shot and discard the rest. if I want a double, I repeat the process. What could be easier?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Totally, one of the shortfalls ( if you can call it that) of levers is that you cannot force more water through the group bless you do a second pull, so dose at the recommended parameters and enjoy, otherwise get a pidded rotary pump pressure profile machine, like a slayer. Oh but expect to pay 3 times the price of an L1.


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

geordie-barista said:


> I need to sort my grinder situation too, one of those would be a fabulous addition to my coffee bench.


Happy for Geordie to have first shout as he beat me to the punch


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Nimble Motionists said:


> Happy for Geordie to have first shout as he beat me to the punch


To be honest you'll use it more than me I will wait a bit.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> , perhaps it is the American preference to drink huge cos of coffee that require a large dose, why not just pull a second shot?


I was in Seattle in 2005 when Australian Paul Bassett, a World Barista Champion, demonstrated the Australian technique of jamming more coffee into the portafilter than we Americans had ever imagined. And around the same time, another Australian, Instaurator, expounded on the updosing theory:



> Extra Virgin Espresso Coffee Oil
> 
> The Olive press and hydraulics.
> 
> ...


So perhaps you could quit bashing us Americans and simply continue to have your fun criticizing the Australians?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Why is it a criticism? I thought it was a generalisation based on the coffee exploits of the larger American type chains, American type coffee drinks in general are huge, try and get a milk based coffee drink in Italy that is over 6 oz

And was the Australian up dosing done on a lever?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> It might well be his means to sell his products but don't a lot of sellers do this, his blog has many useful aspects as well, do you think you will ever be inclined to a own an l1, as your routes began with a tin man, or are you inclined towards pump driven machines now, it would appear that people are either one or the other.


Don't get me wrong, I loved the tin man. I would maybe be tempted by an L1 at some point but I think only in addition to a pump driven machine.

When Reiss makes such ridiculous sweeping statements such as needing a lever machine to really enjoy single origin espresso it makes me question everything else he says. There's so much hyperbole in coffee in general its one of the reasons that I'm not that active on here any more - it seems like one mans opinion can be taken as fact but as soon as anyone tries to introduce measurements to verify they are jumped on by members and ridiculed for not just enjoying the coffee.

There are other reasons but I won't go into those now...

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 4


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

I too, next year could be tempted by a L1. But as lookseehear says in addition to a pump machine. making 8-10 after dinner espresso's / lattes on one will be tiresome & time consuming.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Ha ha making 8 drinks is tiresome on any machine


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Ha ha making 8 drinks is tiresome on any machine


not really....6 /7 mins using this method.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Sorry, don't understand why you can't do that on a lever?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

glevum said:


> I too, next year could be tempted by a L1. But as lookseehear says in addition to a pump machine. making 8-10 after dinner espresso's / lattes on one will be tiresome & time consuming.


Below will solve your problem . I think we are back to my patented espresso kit , with train set additional .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The 6 or perhaps 4 cap challenge may be a good thread to start to see how long it take people on their machines to make stuff. Would people post there attempts up in clip form? Could be fun a.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

I would be up for that at 6 latte cups. I normally dose 20g into 2 x 10 oz cups.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Make it a cappa comp? Better get a faster grinder Glevum, mine only takes 3.8 seconds, already got half a minute on the mignon


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Lookseehear

When Reiss makes such ridiculous sweeping statements such as needing a lever machine to really enjoy single origin espresso it makes me question everything else he says.

I hope at the forum day, if you are able to go, you will get the chance to experience your quote. It was explained to me, that on a lever with an SO bean, it is like a single shaft of light entering a prism, which then splits the single source into an array of colours, each of which is seen separately. With a lever, it seems that you are able if your palate is good enough, to detect the individual tastes that make up the coffee, without simply tasting the strongest or overall impression. Now, quite why that is I will leave for the scientists! But, what I am saying is it would be interesting to let people taste the same bean on a decent lever and then a decent pump which will either dispel or prove the theory!

AndyS, sorry if I seemed to be one of those bashing Americans. if I did, I did not mean to. My point, as others have saif, is that the American preference for many, seems to be the supersize concept. Whilst one argument, is simply make more shots to put in the drink, the other is to put more ingredients in to make a stronger one. Sorry, but I do not know much about the Aussie culture in this area.

Can you explain to me, the concept of VST, not from the angle of perfectly symmetrical holes, but what the advantage is in overdoing say a 15 gm basket to under dosing an 18 gm basket and whether one way will give a particular advantage over the other?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Make it a cappa comp? Better get a faster grinder Glevum, mine only takes 3.8 seconds, already got half a minute on the mignon


Someone more learned than me set some rules up and I'll play. Shot size, cup size. Proof required


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

> There may well be some beans that just don't suit the LI, but I haven't found them





Viernes said:


> lol
> 
> Then, why we are discussing?


...because the next phrase in my sentence reads or, rather, they are not the sort of beans I like anyway. In other words, I accept that there may be some beans that need a machine that needs the sort of temperature adjustement the LI can't do but they are not the sort of beans I buy. But my point was that it is wrong to think that the LI is a restriction on the sort of beans you can buy (which was your point), rather it is a very forgiving machine. Lever machines have a particular pressure/temperature profile which pump machines attempt to emulate and which works great, but you can't really adjust that profile much. On a domestic DB machine you can adjust the temperature but you have a much flatter temp/pressure profle which you can't adjust either. So there may well be beans that seem dull on pump machine but shine on a lever.

But we seem to be stuck in a loop - the only way to get out of it would be to do some side-by-side comparisons. As as been pointed out already, expectations on this forum have massively increased. E61 and commerical lever machines really are in a totally different league to Classics and Silvias, whatever electronics you stick on them, which is partly why I'm so sceptical about PIDs.

And yes, Reiss does have a writing style that winds people up. However anyone who has dealt with him directly knows he is an extremely nice guy who goes out of his way to help customers. His abrasive blogging style really stems from the abuse he received from vested interests when he was about to launch his machine on the market. He made some very grand claims for the LI as most manufacturers do, but seldom do you have a chance to address the designer of the machine directly on a forum. The key thing, nearly every LI owner thinks it has lived up to the hype and love the machine.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

AndyS said:


> And around the same time, another Australian, Instaurator, expounded on the updosing theory:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does anyone actually believe that? If it were true, best results would be obtained by winding the OPV up to 15+ bar. Ah you're quoting it as bad science, understood.


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

RoloD said:


> ...because the next phrase in my sentence reads or, rather, they are not the sort of beans I like anyway. In other words, I accept that there may be some beans that need a machine that needs the sort of temperature adjustement the LI can't do but they are not the sort of beans I buy. But my point was that it is wrong to think that the LI is a restriction on the sort of beans you can buy (which was your point), rather it is a very forgiving machine. Lever machines have a particular pressure/temperature profile which pump machines attempt to emulate and which works great, but you can't really adjust that profile much. On a domestic DB machine you can adjust the temperature but you have a much flatter temp/pressure profle which you can't adjust either. So there may well be beans that seem dull on pump machine but shine on a lever.
> 
> But we seem to be stuck in a loop - the only way to get out of it would be to do some side-by-side comparisons. As as been pointed out already, expectations on this forum have massively increased. E61 and commerical lever machines really are in a totally different league to Classics and Silvias, whatever electronics you stick on them, which is partly why I'm so sceptical about PIDs.
> 
> And yes, Reiss does have a writing style that winds people up. However anyone who has dealt with him directly knows he is an extremely nice guy who goes out of his way to help customers. His abrasive blogging style really stems from the abuse he received from vested interests when he was about to launch his machine on the market. He made some very grand claims for the LI as most manufacturers do, but seldom do you have a chance to address the designer of the machine directly on a forum. The key thing, nearly every LI owner thinks it has lived up to the hype and love the machine.


all right!! Seems levers are another world apart from pump machines.

Thanks!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Lookseehear
> 
> When Reiss makes such ridiculous sweeping statements such as needing a lever machine to really enjoy single origin espresso it makes me question everything else he says.
> 
> ...


This is very interesting. Most lever users simply pull the cup away from the flow of liquid without measuring output/time.... and yet barista science + testing in the field has shown input versus output to have an effect on cup profile and mouthfeel..... and so has temperature. Both parameter in conjunction being used to optimise the spectrum of available flavours...throw flow-profiling in on top and you have a slayer


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> This is very interesting. Most lever users simply pull the cup away from the flow of liquid without measuring output/time.... and yet barista science + testing in the field has shown input versus output to have an effect on cup profile and mouthfeel..... and so has temperature. Both parameter in conjunction being used to optimise the spectrum of available flavours...throw flow-profiling in on top and you have a slayer


I don't have a Strada, Slayer, or a sprung lever machine, so take this with a pinch of salt if you like...(any donations on that score gratefully accepted







)

As I have seen it explained, a typical pump driven machine (without preinfusion, like a Classic/Silvia with PID in Viernes' scenario) will have a slower flow through the puck at the start of the shot (I think it is due to fines being blasted to the bottom of the basket & increasing resistance?). So the shot starts off less diluted, as it progresses (I assume) it extracts aggressively with the constant slow (comparatively) flow. So, my guess is that the shot starts stronger and finishes weaker (at a lower TDS) than a sprung lever (for a given dose/average TDS & beverage weight out).

The sprung lever's in-built preinfusion, sets the puck integrity, keeping everything in place. Initially you get a faster flow through the puck, as you extract the coffee, at this point, the beverage will be "weaker" for the same amount of dissolved coffee solids, than the machine without preinfusion. As the pressure profile decreases, flow through the puck slows and the shot may extract more aggressively (per g of water through the puck) and be "stronger" than the pump shot at the end. That's *if* your lever has gotten to the point where pressure has significantly decreased at the end of the shot (from 9bar down to say 5-7bar?) & assuming you're not making 2 full pulls. I guess a "Fellini move" or repeated Fellini moves, could keep the pressure up.

So (comparatively) the sprung lever shot starts more diluted (perhaps this influences the perceived greater "shot clarity" people talk about), ends at a higher, more consistent level of TDS at the end of the shot & has limited water on hand to push you into overextraction (for 1 pull). A bit of an inbuilt safety net in a couple of respects there perhaps?

But, I'm not an expert on this scenario and would hope that someone who is, will iron out any wrinkles in my understanding.

FWIW I think there are people who weigh lever shots (Prufrock?) and those who pull shots on Stradas & Slayers (naked PF & inbuilt mirror) by watching the extraction.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I guess the pulling of shots into 3 containers at 3 stages through the shot and separately tasting would be interesting. especially with same coffee on the two differing machine types.

My above point was around repeatability once the optimum extraction is found, Prufrock perhaps confirming that is still required even with the levers forgiveness? A seasoned barista can guess within a couple of grams perhaps, but the St Ali study on volumetrics raised a few eyebrows round these parts.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

MWJB said:


> The sprung lever's in-built preinfusion, sets the puck integrity, keeping everything in place. Initially you get a faster flow through the puck, as you extract the coffee, at this point, the beverage will be "weaker" for the same amount of dissolved coffee solids, than the machine without preinfusion. As the pressure profile decreases, flow through the puck slows and the shot may extract more aggressively (per g of water through the puck) and be "stronger" at the end.


 No, as I understand it as pressure and temperature decrease the extraction at the end of the shot is less 'aggressive' - the extraction slows down. But I get your point, and I guess it depends whether your reference is time or volume (i.e. a slow extraction is 'stronger' for a particular volume but, in terms of time, less is being extracted at the end of the process). But I'm guessing here.

I also suspect there's a huge amount of mythology, conjecture and self-delusion in this area, as there is with anything which involves subjective judgements. We know how wine exports can be fooled just by switching the labels and how changing the colour of speaker grills changes the (perceived) nature of the sound. Maybe pulling a shot on a sprung lever influences how you think the coffee tastes. I'm sure half what we believe about espresso is nonsense. Problem is, I don't know which half.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The whole pressure versus flow rate piece often blows my mind. Is this only applicable when an OPV is involved?!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RoloD said:


> No, as I understand it as pressure and temperature decrease the extraction at the end of the shot is less 'aggressive' - the extraction slows down. But I get your point, and I guess it depends whether your reference is time or volume (i.e. a slow extraction is 'stronger' for a particular volume but, in terms of time, less is being extracted at the end of the process). But I'm guessing here.
> 
> 
> > Yes, pressure & temperature decrease, but as the flow through the puck slows, the water is a more efficient solvent, carrying away more dissolved solids. So flow is less aggressive in terms of volume, but the TDS picked up by that water is higher (than the continuous pressure, pump machine) at the end.
> ...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> The whole pressure versus flow rate piece often blows my mind. Is this only applicable when an OPV is involved?!


I don't think so, it's relevant to pourover/gravity too.


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Yes, pressure & temperature decrease, but as the flow through the puck slows, the water is a more efficient solvent, carrying away more dissolved solids. So flow is less aggressive in terms of volume, but the TDS picked up by that water is higher (than the continuous pressure, pump machine) at the end.


I forget a lot of things that I should remember. And remember a couple of things that have no practical use elsewhere except potentially on coffee forums. One such memory is where a well-known Strega user on a forum elsewhere informally compared pure pump shots (as you can do on the Strega) versus a pump start/spring finish for a given dose. To his surprise he found the pump shot to be a little on the underextracted side versus the lever profile, surmising that - maybe - a high pressure is only needed at the start of the shot and that actual contact time trumps pressure in terms of extraction. Of course in isolation the pump shot variables could be adjusted to correct the shot.

Rather unscientific but interesting none the less. Well I thought it was.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ziobeege_72 said:


> I forget a lot of things that I should remember. And remember a couple of things that have no practical use elsewhere except potentially on coffee forums. One such memory is where a well-known Strega user on a forum elsewhere informally compared pure pump shots (as you can do on the Strega) versus a pump start/spring finish for a given dose. To his surprise he found the pump shot to be a little on the underextracted side versus the lever profile, surmising that - maybe - a high pressure is only needed at the start of the shot and that actual contact time trumps pressure in terms of extraction. Of course in isolation the pump shot variables could be adjusted to correct the shot.
> 
> Rather unscientific but interesting none the less. Well I thought it was.


His findings would seem to conform with the model? The lever shot picking up extra TDS at the end of the shot compared to straight pump?

Contact time...do folks still believe in that?


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

So for a really strong extraction maybe you could grind really fine, maybe you'd need some sort of extra filter, like paper, to stop the grinds going through, then you could just drip the water through really slow... you could put the paper into some sort of cone...

nah, it would never work...


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## ziobeege_72 (May 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> His findings would seem to conform with the model? The lever shot picking up extra TDS at the end of the shot compared to straight pump?


Indeed it does. However I am sure that for every example such as this there is probably a counter-example somewhere else. But fun to play around with the theory.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

RoloD said:


> So for a really strong extraction maybe you could grind really fine, maybe you'd need some sort of extra filter, like paper, to stop the grinds going through, then you could just drip the water through really slow... you could put the paper into some sort of cone...
> 
> nah, it would never work...


I agree, that would never work. 

But the reality is, using gravity alone to drip through the grounds, you CAN'T grind really fine -- the dripping stalls. So you need some kind of pressure (about 0.4 bar in a siphon or Aeropress, or somewhere between 4 and 9 bars in an espresso machine) to make really fine grinds practical.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> AndyS, sorry if I seemed to be one of those bashing Americans. if I did, I did not mean to. My point, as others have saif, is that the American preference for many, seems to be the supersize concept. Whilst one argument, is simply make more shots to put in the drink, the other is to put more ingredients in to make a stronger one. Sorry, but I do not know much about the Aussie culture in this area.


Not to worry, dfk, I never felt you were bashing Americans.

I think it's helpful to differentiate between the Starbucks supersize culture and "Third Wave" true coffee aficionados. The latter have absolutely no interest in the former, so it seems pointless to me to lump American coffee aficionados in with the Starbucks corporate machine.

One of the first Americans to use high doses was David Schomer of Cafe Vivace in Seattle. While he doses at 20g+, his shots are very restricted (probably under 20g). AFAIK he does this to get the flavor balance he desires, NOT because he wants a supersize beverage.



dfk41 said:


> Can you explain to me, the concept of VST, not from the angle of perfectly symmetrical holes, but what the advantage is in overdoing say a 15 gm basket to under dosing an 18 gm basket and whether one way will give a particular advantage over the other?


A thorough explanation would be a very long one. But briefly:

1. On some machines an overdosed 15g basket might result in the coffee hitting the shower screen when you insert the portafilter, disrupting the puck.

2. Some lever machines might not have the water capacity to handle the 18g underdosed basket. Also, in a spring lever the pressure profile might be different (lower) since the lever would be in a more vertical position during the shot.

3. The 18g basket has slightly more open area, therefore it tends to flow a little faster. If you want to increase your extraction yield (eg, for a lighter-roasted coffee) or else produce a more concentrated shot, the underdosed 18g basket will allow you to grind finer to increase yield. If you want to decrease your extraction yield (eg, for a darker roasted coffee) or else produce a more dilute shot, the overdosed 15g will accept a slightly coarser grind. These differences are subtle, to be sure.

4. Since the 18g basket has slightly larger holes, too fine a grind will result in a little more silt entering your cup, which some people may notice. Again, this is subtle.

These observations are based on my experience and also on numerous conversations with Vince Fedele of VST. Of course they are not official VST talking points. Vince might agree with some of this and disagree with other parts.

FWIW, this morning I was pulling shots on the L1 with an 18g VST basket, dosing ~16g. I thought this worked out well.

Also, when I make cappucinos, my cups hold about 5 oz (150 ml). For those I like to dose ~18g in order to taste the coffee through the steamed milk. I don't consider these drinks "supersized," although some people might.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I am sure Andy has solved all issues with the L1 and has found his own preferred methodology for using it.


I continue to monitor a thermocouple mounted on the group surface. After every shot, and after the coffee stops dripping, I remove the portafilter and flush the group for a few seconds. This promotes proper thermosiphon action and maintains group temperature. If I don't do the flush, the group temperature may drop 5C - 10C.

Most often I am using VST baskets, so the grind is pretty fine and my preinfusion times vary from 3 to 10 secs.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thats all great l stuff Andy, you have kind of crystallised some of the stuff I have been experiencing recently there. , I have been experimenting with the under dosed and over dosed vst, Ill keep going along your guidelines and see what I see. 16g in the 15g vst can sometimes be too much for the l1 . I kinda noticed the silt part to, and wondered if it was something's was doing wrong.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thanks for the comprehensive reply Andy. I like many, associated the Starbucks scene with the general scene, and realise now that is wrong! I too seem to prefer an 18 gm VST dosed at approximately 16 gms. I have tried 16 in a 15 gm VST but prefer the end result of the larger basket. (t is always nice to have a comprehensive reply!

Thanks again


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