# Weight vs volume to tune in new beans ?



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

I switched beans the other day, and these beans have a lower weight vs volume than the different beans I have used earlier.

Normally I use around 23g in my tripple filter and the filter is nearly full before tamping.

With this other bean, 23g gives a lot of headroom (to much?) in the filter. And the shot also on the sour side.

I upped the dose with this bean to 25 g to give around the same fullness in the portafilter, this gave a sweeter, fuller and much better shot.

Is best practice to use volume in the portafilter to find the correct dose (weight) for the different beans?

Or is the grind size a bit off in this sanario? (time is around the same for extraction of both beans, extraction volum 1:2 on both).

Any views on this?


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

This is fairly common, especially when switching between roast levels.

You can fix it either as you have done - by up dosing, or by tightening the grind. But if there is a lot of headroom it is probably best to up dose to suit the basket.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How much headroom do you normally have, how much headroom did you have with the new beans?

Sounds like your grind was too coarse with the new bean.

Weight is a better datum than volume.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

23g for any basket is alot , even a triple , lock the pf in , dont extract , take it out , is there an indent on the coffee puck already ? You can also do this with a 5 p i think .

Coffee needs room to expand ...you do not need to " fill a basket "

Presumably you are using a 23 g dose and a triple to make a bigger drink ? There is no basket I am aware of that is rated for 25g. I think you may be using dose to compensate for not grniding fine enough

Is the coffee fresh , what grinder are you using ?

And yes weight is a better measure than volume .


----------



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

Thanks for your replies and sharing knowledge,

@Mrboots2u , after ekstraktion I can clearly see the coffe has room for expansion.

I use a concave tamper, after extraction right by the filter wall its in contact with showerhead (not shoverscreen, but the edge of showerhead), but for the rest of the puck there is still clearance after extraction (cheched texture on the puck).

@Dylan, yes the roast level is different, the "new" one is much less roasted (medium brown).

New one: single estate 3 wave coffee (I think), "old" is also single estate, but darker roasted (almost black).

The "new" bean is a fresh roast (4 weeks old, Tim Wendelboe), the usual one's I'm not curtain about exact roast date but its relatively fresh.

So it seems likely the "new" is heavier since lighter roasted and more moisture is in the bean.

I started with 21-22g for the "old" coffee, but updosing gave me better taste in my opinion (denser, sweeter, fuller, more like fine choclates). Same results on the "newer" coffee before and after updose.

Grinding finer resulted in a very slow extraction (maybe ok?)

The filter is the Grand Crema from ECM, not spesified if its tripple or more. Had a lot of trial and error on dosing in this filter, on the usual double filter I used 18g.

Same clearance on both the beans before and after extraction. So one is taking up less volume.

The updosing keeps the same times (on 2:1 ratio)

So the only variable is the weight.

To clearefy the usual rutine:

23 or 25 g coffee (depended of type)

light firming tamp

extraction 2:1

extraction time: 30-33 seconds after coffee starts to flow out of the filter.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If it works for you all good and fine. Personally i used dose to determine the size of drink i wanted using the ratio . ( ps ratio is expressed coffee to water , so in your case 1:2 )

I would suspect 25 g in any basket wont be giving you headroom , as no basket i know of can fit 25g in . Are you using a naked portafilter ? I suspect that much overdoing would lead to a channeling shot .

If you grind finer with the same dose , the shot will take longer .... Ultimately be guided by taste though , if the basket cam with your machine then its a double i suspect and will be around an 18 g dose.

Lastly have you popped the shower screen off for a clean , as using that much coffee Id think you would need to clean it frequently .


----------



## destiny (Jun 4, 2015)

I chuck in another question as it kind of fits the subject. Some coffees I buy have some shot guidlines, but most of the time are over 18g I dose.

Whats your approach to adjusting from this start point? I normally do the in-out ratio to get the new out weight for the shot and than do a proportional shot time per 1s,new weight divided by original weight out/shot time.

Then I adjust a bit further based on taste.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

destiny said:


> I chuck in another question as it kind of fits the subject. Some coffees I buy have some shot guidlines, but most of the time are over 18g I dose.
> 
> Whats your approach to adjusting from this start point? I normally do the in-out ratio to get the new out weight for the shot and than do a proportional shot time per 1s,new weight divided by original weight out/shot time.
> 
> Then I adjust a bit further based on taste.


Why is shot time a feature? Shot time can wander a little without ruining the shot. Concentrate on the ratio, with your 18g dose (as you are) then grind finer until your shots are sweet & balanced.


----------



## destiny (Jun 4, 2015)

I only use time as a guide for initial grind setting, not trying to use it as a target


----------



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

Yes, I use a naked portafilter and the filter that came with it.

The double came with the machine.

Sometimes I get a short small sqirt, most of the time it pours good (for my untrained amateur eyes).

(maybe my scale shows to much?).

I'll try to post a video/pics to get some feedback

I haven't cleaned the shower screen the last 2 months, I'll try and do this later today to have a look.


----------



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

A thing I find puzzling, why is 18g ok in double if 25g is to much in a tripple?

9-18-27 ?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Single, double & triple aren't that precise a term. The weighed dose (+/- a gram, or what the manufacturer recommends), with sufficient headroom is what should go in the basket, whether your basked is single, married, cohabiting, sewing its wild oats, etc.


----------



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Single, double & triple aren't that precise a term. The weighed dose (+/- a gram, or what the manufacturer recommends), with sufficient headroom is what should go in the basket, whether your basked is single, married, cohabiting, sewing its wild oats, etc.


Thanx,

I sent ECM a request for their recomendations on the bottomless portafilter with the Grand Crema filter.

Will post the feedback


----------



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

I recieved reply from ECM (impressed how quick they replied),

The filter is specified for 21g


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jabbalabba said:


> I recieved reply from ECM (impressed how quick they replied),
> 
> The filter is specified for 21g


Ok so try 21g , grind finer, dint worry about time , aim to get 42 g to start, taste ( your preferred indicated ratio of 1:2 ) adjust based on taste .


----------



## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Let us know how you get on.


----------



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

Was back on my "usual" beans this morning.

23.1g of coffee, the ECM tampers "plate" top was flush with the portafilter after light tamping, no showerscreen marks on the puck (just usual edge mark from the screen on the edge of the filter), no squirts, tasted splendid.

I'll do a test in the evening today, making 2 cups.

1 with 21g, the other with 23g, side by side with same bean and grind size, 1:2 ratio on both.

Use same method, rebound time (HX), OCD and light tamping pressure (light firming pressure).

I'll update the thread after testing.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jabbalabba said:


> Was back on my "usual" beans this morning.
> 
> 23.1g of coffee, the ECM tampers "plate" top was flush with the portafilter after light tamping, no showerscreen marks on the puck (just usual edge mark from the screen on the edge of the filter), no squirts, tasted splendid.
> 
> ...


If you decrease the dose and keep the grind the same then the shots will differ in taste.

Less dose , quicker shot for one. SO to get to a point where you are using less coffee ( which economically might be a good thing for you ) and getting a balanced taste then I would also try reducing the dose to 21g and tightening the grind ...


----------



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

@Mrboots2u , Thanx for the tip.

All 3 would then differ in taste ? But I'll try this 3'rd one also and see which one I would prefer.

The challenge will be if I can get any sleep tonight


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jabbalabba said:


> @Mrboots2u , Thanx for the tip.
> 
> All 3 would then differ in taste ? But I'll try this 3'rd one also and see which one I would prefer.
> 
> The challenge will be if I can get any sleep tonight


As a ball park id be looking to get the 21>42g in roughly the same time frame as an enjoyable 23.46 g .

As said before enjoy what you enjoy but using less coffee per shot can't be a bad thing in the long run , if it's tasty..


----------



## Jabbalabba (Nov 26, 2016)

I asked ECM about dose (g) and volume from my example.

To cut the answer short, they recommended tasting since different people have different opinions and taste.

They added a interesting faq i hadn't though of in context that will impact results:

The less coffee in the porta filter, the longer takes the pre-infusion regardless of the grinding degree.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Jabbalabba said:


> I asked ECM about dose (g) and volume from my example.
> 
> To cut the answer short, they recommended tasting since different people have different opinions and taste.
> 
> ...


The idea is that you dose consistently so that you can keep hitting your taste preference by largely adjusting the grind. Then you have 1 primary adjustment to make, to steer the taste. People have different tastes & different coffees taste different - that's a given, but not sure that there is a lot of people who like the same coffee brewed sweet, then brewed sour, then brewed bitter? Longer preinfusion tends to make for a faster flowing shot, but it's swings & roundabouts, none, some, long can all be made to work.


----------

