# It is funny how things come and go



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I do not know if it is fashion, fad or something else. I have watched this forum expand dramatically over the past 24 months or so. Things come and go, people come and go. At one time, L1 and HG One and Mythos, the mere mention of the word use dot cause excitement amongst people. If one came up for sale, then providing the asking price was realistic then they were snapped up immediately. The hast of each of this mentioned machines to become available, all struggled to sell an what I thought were realistic prices and the owners all had to drop price.

The way to go now seems to be Sage. The Barista Express is replacing the Gaggia Classic, the Double Boiler seems to be a replacement for anything and everything. Is it members with not so much experience buying these machines in the belief they are after a quick fix? Sometimes, and sometimes not.

I wonder what advice will be dished out in another 24 months?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

lol..... Sage is cheaper and totally different kettle of fish . Perhaps the people think better of spending £1000 on kit at the moment - perhaps there are only so many insane coffee nerds that need to spend that much. Perhaps people are just happy with the coffee v how much they spend . equation or don't suffer form endless upgradeitis like the rest of us ...

Perhaps the decent espresso machine will be the machine of choice . Pehaps reiss manual lever will take over the world. Seems to be a good mix of gear being used at the mo on the forum . Not necessarily a bad thing .


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

I agree, in the main although I am not so sure it is just the inexperienced buying DBs etc as a short cut to success, as the new generation of machines are bringing cost effective high quality, consistency and enjoyment to the masses.

Coffee machines such as the Sage Barista Express and Dual Boiler are now considered as 'entry level' for many, and particularly for those who have the money to splash out on them. They bring a level of consistency and controllability that other marques cannot, for the same money at any rate.

In another 24 months we may see whole new generation of 'entry level' machine or we may not. Have we already reached another plateau in home coffee making technology? Who knows.

It was not too long ago that we were all blending our own water supplies, roasting our own beans and comparing the microns in our baskets! And what about our scales and PIDs?

I think the next place where our temporary interest will be peaked is the coffee man cave - i.e. how to best present and use our equipment in the most sociable and aesthetic way possible. Move over Kevin McCloud...Perhaps not!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Fingers crossed there is a generation coming through who have grown up in coffee shops and want the same quality of machine in the home - I just hope they were not watching the barista skills in nerocostabucks.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I don't think it's strange, the sage gear has been designed from the ground to tackle some of the challenges that exist when making a home machine from parts designed 50 years ago.

Coffee has come a long way since those parts were designed and people have different requirements from a machine.

The previous wave of machines were considered the best at the time but I would bet that the sage barista express is actually a more able machine than the classic. The smart grinder is probably more capable than a mignon (certainly better than a rocky) and the DB more consistent than many e61 machines. Obviously it's not a lever so it's not going to compete and compare there. Then look at the price, they represent great value and I'm not sure that anyone could argue with that.

As for the second-hand market, I imagine you are single handedly responsible for its collapse!!!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> The previous wave of machines were considered the best at the time but I would bet that the sage barista express is actually a more able machine than the classic. The smart grinder is probably more capable than a mignon (certainly better than a rocky) and the DB more consistent than many e61 machines. Obviously it's not a lever so it's not going to compete and compare there. Then look at the price, they represent great value and I'm not sure that anyone could argue with that.


I wouldn't necessarily agree with the sentiment, not talking about the specific machines grinders, but the view that what is new and modern must be better than what came before.

Some modern things are almost a dumbing down of what came before, whilst others are definite improvements. HiFi arguably doesn't exist in the majority of homes in favour of smaller devices earbuds and 128kb mp3 files, modern throwaway devices, items that never quite meet the advertised promise, but cheap so we throw them away. Of course other advances are definitely an improvement, LED lighting, modern TVs etc..

Worse still are those "improvements" designed to make products difficult to repair, or have a built in obsolescence....far to many of those.

Lastly the "improvements" that allow it to be made cheaper...but at the expense of performance, longevity, maintainability...or all 3.



> As for the second-hand market, I imagine you are single handedly responsible for its collapse!!!


This I would agree with!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I wouldn't necessarily agree with the sentiment, not talking about the specific machines grinders, but the view that what is new and modern must be better than what came before.
> 
> Some modern things are almost a dumbing down of what came before, whilst others are definite improvements. HiFi arguably doesn't exist in the majority of homes in favour of smaller devices earbuds and 128kb mp3 files, modern throwaway devices, items that never quite meet the advertised promise, but cheap so we throw them away. Of course other advances are definitely an improvement, LED lighting, modern TVs etc..
> 
> ...


Hi Dave,

Just to clarify, I didn't say that they were better because they were newer nor did I comment on their serviceability, something that I have no understanding of new or old. I was replying specifically to DFK regarding the products mentioned and I certainly am not of the opinion that just becasue something's new that it must be better, I simply remain open minded.

Cheers

Spence


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Just to clarify, I didn't say that they were better because they were newer nor did I comment on their serviceability, something that I have no understanding of new or old. I was replying specifically to DFK regarding the products mentioned and I certainly am not of the opinion that just becasue something's new that it must be better, I simply remain open minded.
> 
> ...


It's why I was careful to not refer to the products you mentioned. Mine also was a sort of response to changing advice. The next generation always want to find their own way...this means change...some good some bad, some circular. Some of the current trends are puzzling, but sure as eggs is eggs retro will become cool again, as it does every 10 years or so. Roasting styles will change, coffee will change...possibly back to an earlier time, perhaps with a twist...who knows.

Again careful to stay away from any specifics on coffee.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/foodanddrink/11462989/Twitter-mocks-hipster-fashion-for-serving-food-on-arbitrary-objects-including-a-hat.html

On trend...then people wanting plates...why, well perhaps plates are good to eat off...who knows.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Different forums have different in vogue machine and grinders. This is a function, to some degree of the people , whoose opinion is respected on said forum and or how loud they shout ..

If you look at Home Barista a couple of years ago the go to machine was the Strega . There are tons of users with Vario's and the K30 seems to be one of the most popular advocated grinders on there. Some of this is down to what you can pick up in that country and at what price .. there appear to be far less Mythos owner's but then again they don't have M&S swapping them out on a whim...

You cant give a Strega away on here / Oh and yeah they like the Breville stuff too, and some don't.....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

A few years ago, the standard advice dished out on here to a starter, was a Classic paired with an MC2. That migrated to a Vario, then sopped to a Mignon or if space allowed, a second hand SJ......now, the starter often has to consider the Sage range. Without trying to start another verbal war of words, I still wonder as to the longevity of the product.

Back in the early seventies, tyre manufacturers switched from cross plus that did 10000 miles if lucky, to steel braced radials of which some would happily do 50000 miles. Fantastic, until they realised they had shot themselves in the foot......now, a set of tyres tops out at around 20000.......are you seriously telling me if they wanted to, they could not come up with a stronger compound to go further.......the result is, that our expectations are to get 20000 miles or a lot less on a performance car.....at one time a nail meant a can of tyre weld....now a nail means a new tyre......at one time your car was services, now it is plugged into a pc......so,when your electronically loaded coffee machine breaks down after a few years it will be consigned to the consumer scrap heap of things that cannot be fixed economically in our throw away society


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

I do think some of the 'disposability' is a product of relentless pressure on price either through competition or (as in the case of the Sage range) a desire to hit a price point so they can tap a market.

One brilliant dual boiler is the Brewtus but it's way more expensive than the Sage DB. Plus Expobar can only be found at a few specialist retailers where Sage is on TV with Heston, and in John Lewis and Lakeland. They are making good espresso less esoteric and more accessible.

One of the reasons we're talking about different kit is precisely because Sage is offering credible alternatives at a better price. And Ambient is taking on super expensive pressure profiling machines; and now Decent is seeking to disrupt the whole market with a sub GBP500 offering. It's never going to be stainless steel and chromed brass for that money.

In grinder world it seems different. Collectively we are acquiring a much better understanding of how a grinder affects taste in the cup' and how some grinders can access the double hump sweetness. We are driving this change rather than manufacturers I think. We want big burrs and limited particle distribution.

...and when does the Grand Tour start anyway. I need cars on a Sunday evening.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think some considerations are ease of use, cup quality, temperature stability. Pointless having something last forever if its not performing the way you want?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think the safe db had now gained some longevity and indeed a following on here of folk who know what they are doing, hence why it is a decent option if you want to spend around a grand on a machine, the smart grinder remains a pile of shite, it is given away with the db and is not up to the same standard, which is as shame.

As far as what is recommended, I agree with boots who shouts longest and loudest will often get heard, experts pop up all the time, some just sprouting ir really sprouting the words of others, some genuinely know what's what. Current wants drive the advice, people now demand more from there kit, on demand is the norm, good solid dosered commercials have fallen out of vogue.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@coffeechap

good solid dosered commercials have fallen out of vogue.

and this is really the point I was making. It may have seemed I was Sage bashing again. What drives vogue? Popular opinion I guess but that does not make it right or wrong. And I still wonder, in another 24 months what the advice will be. Will the Classic really have left the scene.Will we see electronic tweeks to Sage motherboards by the clever people. Perhaps one day, everything will go 360 again, now, wheres my Chinos


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

...are chinos not in vogue right now?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Obnic said:


> ...are chinos not in vogue right now?


I really have no idea. 20 years or more since I last wore them, doubt they will fit, but it is a nice thought!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Not an expert on machines or coffee or grinders, but I know a piece of disposable tat when I see it as it has a lot of plastic involved, and I hate any product that will fly into landfill rather than be repairable, I'm afraid the more tec and plastic that is thrown inside kit the less repairable they become, On demand grinders are great but after trying a K30 and having to weigh after every time as it was different, and when the timer goes pop is that it, how many people get it repaired (hopefully none coz I want one cheap ) - anyway, if there is a point to quality in my eyes its not about how it performs out of the box today but in 2,5,10yrs time is it able to keep being brought back to life and perform as it did when new, to me that is what real class and quality is about, Hopefully Sage will prove me wrong and start a spares setup that commit to it for the next 20yrs, but I doubt it.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Perhaps a poor comparison but I have owned Sage DBs machines as long as I have owned BMW 3 series. The BMW has needed a new clutch, flywheel and gearbox by the time its done 80,000 miles. The Sage hasn't had a single issue after 1000's of drinks (guessing around 4000) not even a group gasket but i have been lucky?

I hope the performance of the Sage DB is available in a sub £500 machine within the next couple of years. We can stop worshiping tech instead celebrating and enjoying the hard work of coffee farmers and roasters.


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I'm still fairly new to this. (A couple of years.) Whilst the Sage is attractive in some ways, it isn't as attractive as the 'old tech' Rockets, Profitecs and Quick Mills. On the grinder side, on-demand just makes a lot more sense for home use unless you really want to be geeky. Looking forward to more and better on-demand grinders! (The new Eureka is leading the way.)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Perhaps a poor comparison but I have owned Sage DBs machines as long as I have owned BMW 3 series. The BMW has needed a new clutch, flywheel and gearbox by the time its done 80,000 miles. The Sage hasn't had a single issue after 1000's of drinks (guessing around 4000) not even a group gasket but i have been lucky?
> 
> I hope the performance of the Sage DB is available in a sub £500 machine within the next couple of years. We can stop worshiping tech instead celebrating and enjoying the hard work of coffee farmers and roasters.


The thing is Gary, knowing how much Charlie and yourself paid for these machines, and the fact that Charlies died within the year of receiving it, would you have shelled out full retail price then, and would you do so again now?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

I'm not sure about on demand in a home setting because it requires bean weight in the hopper to be accurate (my E92 proved very accurate +/-0.1g). Assuming good grind quality, rather than on demand, I think low retention should be the priority for home. And IMO dosers are great once you've used one. All of which points back to large ex-commercials.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I thought this particular record was broken it appears not.......It lives to spin another day


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The thing is Gary, knowing how much Charlie and yourself paid for these machines, and the fact that Charlies died within the year of receiving it, would you have shelled out full retail price then, and would you do so again now?


Does it change the fact that actually nothing wrong with the machine , i doubt they have special review boxes that are built differently ...


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I have both a doser and an on-demand. The doser is 75mm and the on-demand is 65mm. Guess which gets the most use...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Does it change the fact that actually nothing wrong with the machine , i doubt they have special review boxes that are built differently ...


Let us just suppose that when Sage dispatched the machines to Gary and Charlie, the labels were reversed and Garys machine had died.....would he be extolling its virtues now, a couple of years later?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Rob666 said:


> I have both a doser and an on-demand. The doser is 75mm and the on-demand is 65mm. Guess which gets the most use...


Is there a prize if I get it right?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

In fairness, it is not just coffee machines that are being 'improved' with technology. You can buy a colour tv now, cheaper than approximately 1967 or so when they became readily available in the UK.....and on the whole, you cannot mend those either. Mechanics have become fitters and the cost of a technician at £x per hour is always going to make it cost prohibitive to mend. Some forum members maybe lucky enough to be able to mend their own, but Sage know the bulk cannot.

Disney release their blockbusters on a 7 year cycle......every child sees Mary Poppins and the like........repeat sales ........the key to the future


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> Let us just suppose that when Sage dispatched the machines to Gary and Charlie, the labels were reversed and Garys machine had died.....would he be extolling its virtues now, a couple of years later?


I have subsequently purchased (yep with money) a 2nd machine , in jet black. 500-600 odd drinks and going strong


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I have subsequently purchased (yep with money) a 2nd machine , in jet black. 500-600 odd drinks and going strong


at full retail or from the days you worked at HB?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> at full retail or from the days you worked at HB?


You do seemed to get bogged down in this, is it really that important? Gary is just one happy sage owner, there are many more on here. Some paid full rrp, some (i.e. me) got a discount from rrp via john lewis, amazon or some other shop.

At the end of the day Gary could have sold his Sage and for the money, purchased a brewtus or similar machine e61 machine, he hasn't, surely that is worth more than simply the amount he did or did not pay for it.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I do not really mind how much Gary paid! And that is not the point I am making.

Two machines dispatched on the same day to two people. One breaks very quickly.

One is still going strong and Gary asks if he got lucky!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I do not really mind how much Gary paid! And that is not the point I am making.
> 
> Two machines dispatched on the same day to two people. One breaks very quickly.
> 
> One is still going strong and Gary asks if he got lucky!


When I had my white gloves session the guy who came works for the company who services various machines. He said they love them as they hardly ever go wrong. I didn't prompt him about reliability, he just came out with it. I already had the machine and didn't buy it from him. He mentioned previous brands which had caused them major headaches from a service perspective in the past. I know he's paid by Sage to turn up at my house but as I already know how to make coffee it was more of a general chat.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Rob666 said:


> I have both a doser and an on-demand. The doser is 75mm and the on-demand is 65mm. Guess which gets the most use...


Go on!







What's your fave and why?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Jon said:


> Go on!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im interested in this too....that and if anyone has kept chino's from 1987.

If they did i'm sure they're covered in boot marks.

https://goo.gl/images/yYqCdH


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> at full retail or from the days you worked at HB?


Neither but purchased directly from Sage . Does anyone ever pay full RRP for anything these days?


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Jon said:


> Go on!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Easy! The 65e on demand. Just can't be bothered with the faff of the doser on the 75mm Eureka. It will be listed on the For Sale forum soon. I'm sure that at the limit it does a better job but on an everyday basis, it's a pain. If I could be bothered I'd mod it with a timer and a funnel instead of the doser.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> Easy! The 65e on demand. Just can't be bothered with the faff of the doser on the 75mm Eureka. It will be listed on the For Sale forum soon. I'm sure that at the limit it does a better job but on an everyday basis, it's a pain. If I could be bothered I'd mod it with a timer and a funnel instead of the doser.


I completely get reducing faff (but there's so much in coffee making).

Which produced the better in the cup?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm kinda with Rob on this. Too much faff and I'll end up not making a coffee at all - I just don't get the time in the week. Even with the very easy feldgrind and La Pavoni I just don't fancy the faff whereas the 75e is super simple.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

for once I agree with jon! If I had a shop selling coffee I would strive for perfection, but in a home environment.......drink it or sink it!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I always agree with David.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> for once I agree with jon! If I had a shop selling coffee I would strive for perfection, but in a home environment.......drink it or sink it!


You are less likely to hit perfection in a commercial environment. For me it is strive for perfection at home where there is no customer and at work it would be to get as close to that as possible with an acceptable amount of fuss.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I guess a lot of this is led by personal preference: value put on time vs value put on coffee vs ability to taste imperfections in a drink vs ocdness vs budget for slick kit that makes it all easy etc.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> You are less likely to hit perfection in a commercial environment. For me it is strive for perfection at home where there is no customer and at work it would be to get as close to that as possible with an acceptable amount of fuss.


So that is where we differ. You have gadgets to give you peace of mind, that your coffee is scientifically within the parameters that the demi gods say is perfection. I could not give a hoot. I do not need any toys to tell me if my coffee is worthy our not. Do not get me wrong. Without science Team GB would not have the medal count they have


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Over the years I've had & used all kinds of machines,probably more than most people.

I have to say that I cannot recollect any one of them fulfilling my requirements quicker than the Sage Oracle

Sage services I have found most helpful for any enquiry I have made.

Ron


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

One thing that never seems to come and go is the pre occupation with the stuff that makes coffee rather than the skills to make to tastier or what it tastes like . I dunno how about The actual bean , where it comes from , whether it will be sustainable and around to buy in the next five - ten years ..


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ronsil said:


> Over the years I've had & used all kinds of machines,probably more than most people.
> 
> I have to say that I cannot recollect any one of them fulfilling my requirements quicker than the Sage Oracle
> 
> ...


Perhaps deep down inside, I am scared I might end up with a Sage. I used to race Mini Cooper S and I had a beautiful Mark One Escort Twin Cam but I know they would be mullered by nearly everything going these days......and apart from all of that, I am a bigot who fights change...LOL


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> One thing that never seems to come and go is the pre occupation with the stuff that makes coffee rather than the skills to make to tastier or what it tastes like . I dunno how about The actual bean , where it comes from , whether it will be sustainable and around to buy in the next five - ten years ..


Do not fret boots, the scientists will have it all sorted with poly tunnels and the like....


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> So that is where we differ. You have gadgets to give you peace of mind, that your coffee is scientifically within the parameters that the demi gods say is perfection. I could not give a hoot. I do not need any toys to tell me if my coffee is worthy our not. Do not get me wrong. Without science Team GB would not have the medal count they have


What are you on about mate!? I said faff, I said nothing about scientific parameters, toys that tell me if my coffee is worthy or demi Gods. For clarity, when I say faff I mean extra care taken to ensure that everything is as good as it can be before I start making a shot of espresso. At home I can (and personally choose to) put the time in to trying to get my prep bang on so that I get the best tasting coffee in the cup, what you choose to do is totally up to you.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> What are you on about mate!? I said faff, I said nothing about scientific parameters, toys that tell me if my coffee is worthy or demi Gods. For clarity, when I say faff I mean extra care taken to ensure that everything is as good as it can be before I start making a shot of espresso. At home I can (and personally choose to) put the time in to trying to get my prep bang on so that I get the best tasting coffee in the cup, what you choose to do is totally up to you.


If you are using a refractometer, it is to show you where your coffee extraction is, which is a scientific approach, in my view. It is the demi gods of coffee who brought this innovation in. You believe it helps.....I don't give a cuss. i do not need a scientist or a toy to help me get the coffee I like. Can you imagine going in to see matt, ordering an espresso.....returning it because it is rank but taking satisfaction that all the key indicators say it is ok


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> If you are using a refractometer, it is to show you where your coffee extraction is, which is a scientific approach, in my view. It is the demi gods of coffee who brought this innovation in. You believe it helps.....I don't give a cuss. i do not need a scientist or a toy to help me get the coffee I like. Can you imagine going in to see matt, ordering an espresso.....returning it because it is rank but taking satisfaction that all the key indicators say it is ok


You are hilarious! CBA


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Using Scales doesn't count as being "scientific" clearly


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Using Scales don't count as scientific clearly


Not if ur a Greengrocer, or drug dealer!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

But surely all the "scientific equipment" is intended as a means of measuring and repeating the outcomes from what is a essentially a scientific process? Isn't it designed to allow you to reproduce what tastes like an amazing shot? I find that hard to argue with as a concept. (I just personally choose to limit my experiment at weighing in and out rather than refracting etc. BUT I see merit in taking stuff to the next level )


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Back in the early seventies, tyre manufacturers switched from cross plus that did 10000 miles if lucky, to steel braced radials of which some would happily do 50000 miles. Fantastic, until they realised they had shot themselves in the foot......now, a set of tyres tops out at around 20000.......are you seriously telling me if they wanted to, they could not come up with a stronger compound to go further.......


Short answer, yes. But there is a trade off in compounds that wear longer vs the other important factor - grip.


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

Jon said:


> But surely all the "scientific equipment" is intended as a means of measuring and repeating the outcomes from what is a essentially a scientific process? Isn't it designed to allow you to reproduce what tastes like an amazing shot? I find that hard to argue with as a concept. (I just personally choose to limit my experiment at weighing in and out rather than refracting etc. BUT I see merit in taking stuff to the next level )


Indeed - and there we come full circle in this discussion. Sage has produced a line of equipment which, for reasonable money gives outstanding consistency and repeatability. This is what a lot of people want.

Faffing about to try and get results is a real turn-off for me. That is why my other 'devices' lurk on shelves gathering dust.

Like others here I love being able to fire up the DB and, within minutes, enjoy supping on fantastic coffee. Now that I have 'mastered' weighing, tamping, timing etc. and use great beans as the starting point my results are almost always top drawer. So much so that my main stress now comes from trying to produce passable latte art. Nothing to do with flavour but proof that if that's all I worry about now then my coffee making must have hit an acceptable level (at least for me). I wouldn't use a coffee machine or process that didn't make me feel the same way.

Now if only I can find a machine that can produce good latte art for me...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well summed up, AMCD300......some of us want to delve and tinker, some of us do not......


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

It's horses for courses. Some are into it for the craft, connection with the coffee etc and will have all sorts of things including modded grinders, PF funnels, ocd, refractometers etc. Some just want to drink coffee at short notice with minimum input. Most of us are somewhere in the middle. Take me for example. I love the solidity of a shiny stainless trad e61 machine. I like the relative lack of tech, and the relative lack of plastic. I like the simplicity of an on demand grinder, having quickly tired of the doser on my old Mazzer. I use scales and a coffee catcha. I use a good basket, and a naked. However I can't be bothered messing about with temperature never mind pressure profile and will never get a refractometer. I can make coffee that I like, repeatably. I just focus on what bean now, and try to improve my latte art. Some will want more options, some will want less fuss and shorter warm up times. Each to his own, and there is a setup for everyone out there (assuming budget is there!)

The reason we always say "Classic/Mignon" to noobs is because normally the question is "how little can I get away with investing if I want to do espresso at home. And we usually assume that they will be happy to go down the rabbit hole like we have. The Sage machines don't particularly appeal to my aesthetic and requirements, but they are a very good option for some who are less bothered about the finer points and just want a machine that they can turn on, use, get good coffee, and the rest of the family can use without being taught and inducted into the Order of the Faithful Bean, learning the funny handshake, WDT and what have you.

I think it's great that people have the choice.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

AMCD300 said:


> Indeed - and there we come full circle in this discussion. Sage has produced a line of equipment which, for reasonable money gives outstanding consistency and repeatability. This is what a lot of people want.


Like.

That's what I was trying to say rather less eloquently in my first post. That's why we've moved on from previous favorites. It's not just changing sentiment. Things got better.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Obnic said:


> Like.
> 
> That's what I was trying to say rather less eloquently in my first post. That's why we've moved on from previous favorites. It's not just changing sentiment. Things got better.


So is that the death knell of the basic old set up then? I think not. There is no quick fix with coffee and the layered procedures needed to make a decent cuppa......electronically assisted or not!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Caravel still makes great espresso - 50 - 60yr old design.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> So is that the death knell of the basic old set up then?


You're a provocateur and you know it.

Not what I was saying. Simply that 'things' as you say moved on a bit with espresso machines because the range and capability of what is available has improved at several price points. Not sure this is yet true at the Classic's price point.

I remain less convinced that this observation is true for grinders. I think instead our appetites have become more refined.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Obnic said:


> You're a provocateur and you know it.


Who, moi? I dont provocante, so much as explore angles for discussion.......now.......onto grinders.......how can Sage make such a brilliant range of coffee machines yet produce a totally shit grinder........you would think they either did nit understand, or care! Of course, us superior people (and for this statement I exclude myself) know that a coffee machine just makes coffee from whatever you chuck in........please someone, tell Sage.......they might come up with something to blow us all out of the water


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Wait till I sell my royals though!


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## AMCD300 (Feb 11, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> ...how can Sage make such a brilliant range of coffee machines yet produce a totally shit grinder........


Now this is something most people will agree with you about. Sadly...

I think Sage looked at it from a marketing point of view - giving away a free grinder may have tipped the balance with some purchasers. They have gone even one stage further now with the Oracle by including it in the machine - genius!

My Sage grinder is good enough while I save for something better. Well, ok it is good enough until it breaks and I buy a new one.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

grinding is not a a solved problem, it takes a range of skills that do not necessarily overlap with those required to build a coffee machine, and neither sage nor breville a us had any experience in this arena before.

its quite possible they outsourced the production, and again they went for something which would hopefully be all things to all men (which I am now fairly convinced doesn't really exist, certainly not for that price tag)

As a marketing move though, it makes a lot of sense - they match each other and you can't argue with the price if you buy a db. It seems to people that they are getting a complete package, and most people would not know any better, especially if their only experience of coffee machines comes from shopping in John Lewis.

On on the plus side, it gets people off the ground, and later they may come to upgrade when they realise much better things are out there. I'm not aware of any machine and grinder by the same company that are that great. Maybe the la marzocco one, but isn't that a rebadged mazzer?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I blame "spouses" .... sure every newbie amateur barista wants a used classic with a blob of rust on the frame and a massive hunk of ex-costa coffee shop towering above it, then to spend the next 2 weeks soldering electronics to it so it works better.

but the bank manager says "no" ... why dont you get a new machine that you dont need to take apart, that has warranty, that isn't battered or resprayed and that ha a grinder that won't take over my kitchen

And thus is born the sage generation


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

h1udd said:


> I blame "spouses" .... sure every newbie amateur barista wants a used classic with a blob of rust on the frame and a massive hunk of ex-costa coffee shop towering above it, then to spend the next 2 weeks soldering electronics to it so it works better.
> 
> but the bank manager says "no" ... why dont you get a new machine that you dont need to take apart, that has warranty, that isn't battered or resprayed and that ha a grinder that won't take over my kitchen
> 
> And thus is born the sage generation


My spouse is quite happy with the cheapest option, especially when I also explain its "better" (especially in the case of the towering pile of grinder!)


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Perhaps a poor comparison but I have owned Sage DBs machines as long as I have owned BMW 3 series. The BMW has needed a new clutch, flywheel and gearbox by the time its done 80,000 miles. The Sage hasn't had a single issue after 1000's of drinks (guessing around 4000) not even a group gasket but i have been lucky?
> 
> I hope the performance of the Sage DB is available in a sub £500 machine within the next couple of years. We can stop worshiping tech instead celebrating and enjoying the hard work of coffee farmers and roasters.


Glad I wasn't the only one with BMW issues. 2 Bmws both gave me wallet ache. Then had 2 Mercedes and not a single thing needed done. Can be luck I guess but then again maybe it's more than that. Hard to tell with cars though. I tend to drive them hard but always service very well.

Back to coffee - agree with most of what's been said. I think the en vogue comment is very accurate. Times change, technology changes and for sure opinions change. Doesn't mean the old isn't as good however. It just means it's not broadcast as much.

The sage and mignon had a lot of air time around 12-24 months ago, before that it was the Brewtus and Mazzers and before that it was classic/silvia.

Most likely someone who comes in seeking advice will have a browse through the hot topics (we always have a go ask have they read the forum right?)

I'd say we are the cause and effect.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gman147 said:


> Back to coffee - agree with most of what's been said. I think the en vogue comment is very accurate. Times change, technology changes and for sure opinions change. Doesn't mean the old isn't as good however. It just means it's not broadcast as much.
> 
> The sage and mignon had a lot of air time around 12-24 months ago, before that it was the Brewtus and Mazzers and before that it was classic/silvia.
> 
> ...


Absolutely right....in our VERY small world of coffee drinking afficionados (fanatics?)....we are the cause and effect of people purchasing the kit they do...most of us rarely drive the change in equipment (that's the marketing), but we do encourage others down a rabbit hole. The other 99.9% of coffee drinkers are of course left in the tender hands of "Maxwell House" and Nespresso etc..


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

The engineer in me likes the build of a traditional machine. To me, they have more of a soul.

The Sage has proved to more than hold its own but doesn't have the same appeal to me. Probably because it looks like the next kitchen appliance - all intentional, I'm sure.

In the right hands they both make decent coffee. Is either wrong ?

When I bought my machine there wasn't a serious contender to the prosumer kit. I guess that by making their offerings, Sage are responsible to some level for changing the discussion on the forum.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> Wait till I sell my royals though!


If they're on demand they will sell faster than the dosered ones and will achieve more £s, until dosers are back in vogue or you sell them to coffee shops


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> If they're on demand they will sell faster than the dosered ones and will achieve more £s, until dosers are back in vogue or you sell them to coffee shops


Let's talk (in the interests of things coming and going!!) About on demand and clumping... And the additional steps that often seem to be required/in vogue to declump.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

I think clumping is over exaggerated, its not that big a deal at all. Some beans I use dont clump, some clump a little bit.My grinder clumped more when it was new, people mentioned it may settle down as the burrs seasoned. I think it has.

Additional steps

I wouldnt grind straight into my protafilter anyway. The spouts always harbour dribbles of water, which would affect the weight as they dribble out and make my scales wet.

So even if i didnt have occasional clumps I would still choose to grind into a ramekin for another reason as well, it has a bigger target, so I dont get stray grinds on my worktop.

My 15g VST looks pretty full with 15gs of nice fluffy grinds in it and it can sometimes overflow. So even if there where no clumps present I would still use the ramekin.

I thought you bought a coffee catcher thing a while back because of the grinds exiting the doser on your SJ went where they shouldnt.

Isnt that why SJs come with that massive chrome thing that goes on the front of the base, to catch the errant grinds that have missed the portafilter when they exit the doser?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I did, and sold it on as it was a faff. Instead I just position the portafilter on an angle and experience has made it mess free. I think the grinds tray is probably for high volume environments and ease of cleaning.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

Some interesting discussion here.

I've seen this kind of debate in a lot of other areas over the years TVs, cameras, home computers, mobile phones, hifi's.

Pick anyone of these areas and you'll see similar parallel themed debates:- CRTs gave way to plasma, LCD now is mass market, huge debate that the quality of blacks on Plasma's are better than LCDs, and now the early adopters with deep pockets are turning to OLED. Camera's - film, digital, SLR, Medium format, DSLR etc.

The reality is that it's all driven by market forces of different consumer segments:- Pro, Prosumer, Entry, convenience, early adopters, fanatics. If there wasn't enough demand for each of the different types of products no-one would make them.

For the mass market and bleeding edge competition is particularly tough, this has the overall effect of driving innovation in the market, at the top end it's a differentiator in terms of "best", for the mass market it trends towards increasing quality & packing in more features to demonstrate value for money while at the same time keeping prices & margins low to be competitive.

Couple that with a longer term trend of reducing cost, increasing disposable income and a customer base who already has all the other toys (a few years ago no-one owned a digital camera!) and you're seeing lots of new people enter what was the niche area of home coffee making. Both of these move the entire market along making things better for everyone though!

People still buy landline phones and plug them into the wall, my mum has 6 month old smart phone but only ever phones or texts, kids are doing things on phones that I'll never understand!

What does it mean for coffee machines? Prices will fall, you'll get more features for your money, quality will improve on average, direct lever machines will still be made in 20 years time. I can see the Sage DB v 2 having some form of pressure profiling that's nearer the Vesuvius (even though most of the people who buy it won't ever use it).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Any tips for the 2.30 at Sandown tomorrow?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yeah, wear shorts, it's gonna be hot. Don't place any bets. Odds on the bookies will come out on top.


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## Kyle T (Jan 6, 2016)

I'm just waiting for the day my smart phone can also make my coffee


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

How you going to fit 120mm flat burrs into it? Or are you more of a conical man?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can anyone explain why conical burrs seem to stop at 65 or 68 mm. I am sure there must be a reason but if with flats, the rule of thumb is the bigger the diameter the more the ability to widen flavour profiles, why not the same with conical.


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Can anyone explain why conical burrs seem to stop at 65 or 68 mm. I am sure there must be a reason but if with flats, the rule of thumb is the bigger the diameter the more the ability to widen flavour profiles, why not the same with conical.


I can't explain it, but I do note that you have a grinder with 83mm conical burrs


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Any tips for the 2.30 at Sandown tomorrow?


There is no 2.30 at sandown today,afaik the next meeting is on friday 9th september , otherwise I would have given you a tip


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Can anyone explain why conical burrs seem to stop at 65 or 68 mm. I am sure there must be a reason but if with flats, the rule of thumb is the bigger the diameter the more the ability to widen flavour profiles, why not the same with conical.


This should probably be split off to another thread, but conical burr measurements tend to relate to the size of the hole they drop into (Mazzer do go up to 71mm in this respect, at least), rather than the diameter of the cutting edge of the inner burr.

There is almost no discussion on forums about the dimensions of the cutting edges of conical burrs.

I don't understand the "ability to widen flavour profile" bit?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> I don't understand the "ability to widen flavour profile" bit?


Neither do I, but....it has been suggested that the bigger the flat burr the more flavours that are produces. UI have no evidence to back that up of course but in the same way as a conical seems to produce a wider range of flavours than a flat I took the comment with a pinch of salt. Having owned both though, it does seem that a lever makes a better drink with a conical.....I have no scientific idea why


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

DFK / MWJB. Could it be that the length of cutting edge is similar /same on both as the sloping length on conical burr's could equate with the length of cutting edge on a flat burr


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> DFK / MWJB. Could it be that the length of cutting edge is similar /same on both as the sloping length on conical burr's could equate with the length of cutting edge on a flat burr


Yes, I'm sure that there is a lot of overlap here. But I'd also be interested to see how the pre-breaker areas differed, how aggressively one type of burr (with the same length of cutting edge) broke up the bean as it entered the burrs (nibbled vs smashed) & any effect that had on distribution.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Yes, I'm sure that there is a lot of overlap here. But I'd also be interested to see how the pre-breaker areas differed, how aggressively one type of burr (with the same length of cutting edge) broke up the bean as it entered the burrs (nibbled vs smashed) & any effect that had on distribution.


Anyone have a set of both they could photograph for comparison , macro photo ??


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> Anyone have a set of both they could photograph for comparison , macro photo ??


Not sure that would tell you much without a lot of guesswork, you'd really have to establish how it broke up the beans in terms of the grind produced.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

On the Versalab, they use conical burrs to break the bean and flat burrs to grind. I would why? Presumably there is a scientific answer.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> On the Versalab, they use conical burrs to break the bean and flat burrs to grind. I would why? Presumably there is a scientific answer.


Most burrs have the pre-breaker & finishing area combined in a single burr set, the Versalab (DRM) burrs have seperate functions, the conical does the pre-breaking, the flat does the finishing. There's quite a bit of talk about at the moment about achieving a similar effect by double grinding, pass the beans through once at a very coarse setting to break them, then a second time finer, to finish them, in the hope of improving distribution.


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