# Troubleshoot my shot



## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Hi all,

Couldn't seem to find an appropriate thread to put this in but please correct me if I am wrong, might also be a good place for other n00bs to put their quieries.

So...

I'm a bit of a learner around these parts and I'm currently using a classic with Iberital MC2 grinder until my Wega is running, been trying to dial in my new Rave beans after getting great extractions from some 9 day old HasBeans. Probably worked through about 200g and still havent found the sweet spot, began on the same setting as the Hasbean and was choking the machine, then made it corser only to get gushing shots, so I started again and re-set my grinder by removing the worm gear and backing off from touching burrs.

Disclaimer: I don't have 0.01g scales yet so just using kitchen 1g scales at the mo.

I'm using a 14g dose (seemed to be overdosing previously) with a firm tamp and polish, with 2oz being extracted in 16-20seconds (I know weighing is better but scales havent arrived!). The taste is good, dark crema and the signs of tiger striping, however it seems to be pouring far too freely and blonding happens quite quickly, this tells me to grind finer, correct?

However I am also getting some grounds in the bottom of the cup, which would suggest too fine, no?

The allusive 27second shot evades me, what steps should I take first?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Fines in the cup just means there are fines, these get created no matter how coarse you go and are more prevalent in the entry level grinders like the MC2.

You can test your dose by placing a 2p on the surface of a tamped puck, lock it in and then remove it. The 2p should have been very lightly pressed into the puck, which is more or less the right distance between shower screen and puck. You may well have a 14g basket.

So ignore the fines and grind finer, OR updose a gram. Experiment with the two variables to fine tune, but you do want to find a consistent weight that works.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Tried 5p on a 7gram single this morning and took the portafiler out to find the puck and the 5p attached to the shower screen...

Tried it on the 14g and had an ever so slight impression.

Will go finer in the morning... Then order more of the same beans!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Try making 1 .5 fl ounces or less ounce form your 14 g dose

I recon you if you weighed you would be in the 14g into 50-60g ratio currently ...so about 1:4, when i would recommend about a 1:2 ratio ...

if you haven't already read these in prepartion of your scales....

Sound like you need to grind finer... When you get scales work to a brew ratio an alter by taste , blonding will be different from roast to varietal ..

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?375-Weighing-Espresso-(Brew-Ratios)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?376-How-to-weigh-espresso-with-scales-creating-a-brew-recipe


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

I have the same set-up and currently on Rave Italian Job. I'm dosing 17g in a standard basket and getting 2:1 in around 27s. I would say i use a medium to light tamp.

Have you done the opv mod? My Classic seems more controlled since i did this.

Also, I removed the upper carrier on my mc2 a few months ago and despite marking it and putting it back in the same position, it took me ages to dial it in.

i usually adjust half a turn of the dial until dialled in and then quarter turns if necessary after that.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

OPV mod was actually completed this evening before my final double (the one described in the OP)will try grinding finer in the morning and will report back.

Final issue is: getting a wet puck too. Occassionally swimming in water, often damp. I regularly backflush, and occassionally with cafiza to clear out gunk.


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

Sounds wrong, but you will need to grind finer after reducing the pressure.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Ok....

This morning I pulled two doubles, one which was 1 1/2 turn finer this time I got a 23sec 2oz extraction, pour looked better.

I then went 2 turns finer again and got 24sec 2oz, still some work to do and i'm almost out of beans!!

I took a photo of the first puck to show you the dampness of it, there was a little 'sitting water' on the surface which caused a little overflow of loose grounds.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Does the 2 fl oz extraction taste good? If not is there any reason why you are keeping it as your aimed output , other than you want that size of drink? If so then dose more to get to your 2 fl oz.

Try 14 g into less volume say 28-30 ml ( if you are  still waiting on scales )

If your drinks are great in the cup then ignore all the above


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Another 2 full turns on the MC2 and I got 1.75oz in 27seconds. I tasted the 0.75oz straight and turned the 1oz into a cappu.

Chinese New Year is holding up my scales, I hope that my beans arrive tomorrow though... Seriously low now!!!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

TomBurtonArt said:


> Another 2 full turns on the MC2 and I got 1.75oz in 27seconds. I tasted the 0.75oz straight and turned the 1oz into a cappu.
> 
> Chinese New Year is holding up my scales, I hope that my beans arrive tomorrow though... Seriously low now!!!!


How did it taste?


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> How did it taste?


Tasted good, perhaps a tad sour, although my palette needs a little refining after years of DeLonghi "espresso".

My trips to Milan are a distant memory now.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

So I filmed my latest double, same beans but new batch so probably needs a tweak in the grind. 




Seems to start off nicely but seems to me that it gets very pale quickly,


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There are differing schools of thought in this ..mine is one and in now way original. I brew by ratio and adjust based on taste. I dont subscribe to stopping a shot via colour.

Other people do..one isnt right or wrong , ultimately there are differing methods to making espresso, if stopping by colour makes a drink you love . all good by me but I find it easier to communicate in terms of a recipe over time rather than a subjective statement of when a shot blondes ...plus different beans and roasts will blonde at differing times.

So how did it taste. Do you have any idea what volume or weight your making ( sorry I know broken record )


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I was dubious of weighing shot output (not input for some reason).

But as soon as I started there was a massive increase in the quality of my shots.

Have been doing it ever since for the last 18 months.

From memory on my Classic Italian Job works best for with an 18g sized basket at 18g in 29-30g out in approx 25 secs.

I'd class it as a Mid-darker roast.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> There are differing schools of thought in this ..mine is one and in now way original. I brew by ratio and adjust based on taste. I dont subscribe to stopping a shot via colour.
> 
> Other people do..one isnt right or wrong , ultimately there are differing methods to making espresso, if stopping by colour makes a drink you love . all good by me but I find it easier to communicate in terms of a recipe over time rather than a subjective statement of when a shot blondes ...plus different beans and roasts will blonde at differing times.
> 
> So how did it taste. Do you have any idea what volume or weight your making ( sorry I know broken record )


Wasn't as smooth as earlier shots (these beans were fresher), tasted a touch bitter. The volume is roughly 1.5oz in that cup, perhaps a touch more. No idea of weight still. I have up dosed slightly going for 15g in.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

TomBurtonArt said:


> Wasn't as smooth as earlier shots (these beans were fresher), tasted a touch bitter. The volume is roughly 1.5oz in that cup, perhaps a touch more. No idea of weight still. I have up dosed slightly going for 15g in.


How are you weighing the dose ..but not able to weigh the output ?

Presume you have scales for the dose , can't you use to weight the output , or it it simply you would prefer not to?


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Crappy 1g kitchen scales, hadnt thought it worth weighing output because of a lack of accuracy and the size of the scales limits how I could weight the shot.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

TomBurtonArt said:


> Crappy 1g kitchen scales, hadnt thought it worth weighing output because of a lack of accuracy and the size of the scales limits how I could weight the shot.


give it a go .....


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

TomBurtonArt said:


> Crappy 1g kitchen scales, hadnt thought it worth weighing output because of a lack of accuracy and the size of the scales limits how I could weight the shot.


Using the 1g ones to weigh output will be better than what you're doing at the moment. I've never been able to stop a shot on 0.5g


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Will do.

They are truely awful scales though. They auto switch off after 40secs with nothing on them so will have to tare just before I press go on the shot. They wont fit on the driptray so everything weighing will be retrospective.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

15g in - 38g out in 27secs


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

TomBurtonArt said:


> 15g in - 38g out in 27secs


Ok thats the numbers..

how does it taste >>>>>


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok thats the numbers..
> 
> how does it taste >>>>>


Tastes good, it was made into a flat white so I cant comment objectively on the espresso yet... The saga continues.

Thanks for your help boots!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok try as espresso next time... Even a sip..perhaps tighten the grind a little to get to 15>30 in roughly same time


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

I'm by no means and expert, but I started going through this a month or so ago. A new grinder forced me into it!

My intital finding have been:

1. Scale down the size of my drinks! Drink more of them if needed!

I use small duraflex glasses [french] and used to fill it, for a coffee, would be around 45-50g. Now I'm hitting around 26g! just under half full... around 14g of coffee.

I have since gone back to try one of the old measures... it's foul!

2. Bean freshness

If the beans are very fresh, i.e. a couple of days from roasting, the extraction will be foamy, this makes you think you need to tamp more and tit around with the grind... no need, just leave the beans for a week.

3. Overestimate how many beans you will go through setting it all up!

I ran out, and had to open a supermarket bag... needless to say, it's still in the cupboard, as it's nasty, I'm just too tight the throw it out

The scales have been good, like you, I used the slater kitchen type, they are a faff, the cheapo jewellery ones [£5] are far better.

Your video made me chuckle, the cup looked massive, then towards the end, a big thumb came in and took it... hahaha

As everyone says, go for taste, timings/weights are the start, not the end.

w

PS, my pucks used to be very wet, sometimes like a small swimming pool! sorry! Now they damp.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

Gave my grind a 180 twist tighter and the shot was smoother tasting, less bitterness, missed my timer button so had to guess the timing and ended up with 43g output again but feeling better about my shots.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

As a conclusion to this thread, I recieved my scales, bought a larger batch of coffee to allow for resting, but the biggest improvement came from using a new precision basket and a tamper specifically designed for that basket. Also using a distrobution method and nutating with my tamp.

The fines I was getting in the final mouth full have almost completely gone, and the taste is far far better.


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## kadeshuk (Nov 22, 2014)

What did you get Tom - a VST? I thought that I'd try a bottomless next. And how's the Wega going?


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

kadeshuk said:


> What did you get Tom - a VST? I thought that I'd try a bottomless next. And how's the Wega going?


Got a LaMarcozza Precision 17g basket with my MadeByKnock tamper, it's great. I'll get a bottomless when the wega is up and running I think.

Wega is going ok, needs a new element which should be delivered on Monday. Has some leaks which I'll tend to when I replace the element early next week. Hopefully will get up to pressure then and will be able to identify any further problems to sort!


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