# Think my ratios are all wrong?



## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

I use a Gaggia Classic and am currently using El Salvador Escocia SL-28 beans with a Mignon.

Today i started weighing things as before I had been filling the gaggia non pressurised double basket, tamping, and done.

I weighed 16g of beans and ground them and got 16g out.

I tamped and put it through the machine. It was quite a short extraction time, say 10-12 seconds, and the coffee was wet afterwards. Where I usually fill to the top I think this was nearer 20g of coffee but the extraction time was 25 seconds.

I got 65g of espresso out for a double.

I'm guessing this is all wrong?

Thanks

Nick


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Have we not been over this already? 16-18g in with a stock double, 26-32 out in 30 seconds give or take. Tighten your grind.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

np123 said:


> I use a Gaggia Classic and am currently using El Salvador Escocia SL-28 beans with a Mignon.
> 
> Today i started weighing things as before I had been filling the gaggia non pressurised double basket, tamping, and done.
> 
> ...


Ignore jeebsy he is cold today ....

Have you changed the bean? Is the Escocia a new bean ? If so what was the previous bean .....Different beans or roast level will need adjustments to grind....if you know this already then apologies but

Generally speaker lighter roast needs a finer grind than a darker one ...

Plus are you weighing the esresso out ir eyeballing a volume based on a previous weight of a different bean

If so weight the espresso out to get an accurate ratio

Lastly whats the roast date on the beans also

BTW if it tastes great it isnt wrong ...how does it taste?


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks Mrboots2u. It's the same bean I used before, the roast date is 17th December. My first instinct was that the grind isn't fine enough as the beans are ageing?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Actually do you normally dose 20g ? if you have changed the dose from 20 g to 16g then that will make the extraction quicker as you haven't changed the particle size but you have put less coffee in...Make sense ?


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Actually do you normally dose 20g ? if you have changed the dose from 20 g to 16g then that will make the extraction quicker as you haven't changed the particle size but you have put less coffee in...Make sense ?


It does make sense thanks. I wanted to try get my ratios right so I'll try to tighten the grind up so I can get the right weight out. Thanks for the help, really appreciate it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

np123 said:


> It does make sense thanks. I wanted to try get my ratios right so I'll try to tighten the grind up so I can get the right weight out. Thanks for the help, really appreciate it.


No probs

if your using less coffee then you need to tighten the grind a bit to achieve the ratio you want ....


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> No probs
> 
> if your using less coffee then you need to tighten the grind a bit to achieve the ratio you want ....


I just tightened it about as far as I could safely take it, and it took about 30 seconds. However the weighed output in a 60ml glass was 64 grams. Am I being really stupid?


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

For clarity and curiosity, 1millilitre of water weighs 1 gram, does coffee weigh any different ?

Ian


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Eyedee said:


> For clarity and curiosity, 1millilitre of water weighs 1 gram, does coffee weigh any different ?
> 
> Ian


Short answer yes...

MWJB hit em with science ....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Eyedee said:


> For clarity and curiosity, 1millilitre of water weighs 1 gram, does coffee weigh any different ?
> 
> Ian


Coffee is slightly heavier than water, but crema is much lighter. 60ml of espresso will weigh less than 60g at the time you kill the shot...anywhere up to half as much, even less in the case of all crema shots?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Quoted from this thread here

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?18246-David-Schomer-s-ounces&highlight=mwjb+espresso+weight

"Typical density of espresso is 1.02 times that of water.

Also, the density of water at 20C is about 4% greater than water at 95C."


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Quoted from this thread here
> 
> http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?18246-David-Schomer-s-ounces&highlight=mwjb+espresso+weight
> 
> ...


So in theory, my 33 day old beans produce much less crema and so a 1:1 weight ratio of 60ml being 60g or so is right.

If I got fresher beans I would see a drop in weight out due to more co2 and more crema.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

np123 said:


> So in theory, my 33 day old beans produce much less crema and so a 1:1 weight ratio of 60ml being 60g or so is right.
> 
> If I got fresher beans I would see a drop in weight out due to more co2 and more crema.


No & No. 

There's no theory, if you're brewing by ratio you are killing your shot at the desired weight of output, so weigh it rather than base your weight on an inaccurate extrapolation from volume.

Whatever the state of your beans, 30g of espresso is 30g of espresso. The volume may change due to incidence of crema, but the weight is what we are looking for.

I know it doesn't sound like a big difference, but shot glasses are rarely correctly marked (whole grams out), even if they are then the glass is fairly thick & most folk will be looking down at the line, introducing parallax error...in reality these errors can cause a range of inconsistencies that means no matter how hard you observe them & how careful you are, you're not going to get consistent enough results to be meaningful. You ideally want your shot to be within +/-1.5g.


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## peterpan (Sep 25, 2014)

Espresso science, love it


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

MWJB said:


> No & No.
> 
> There's no theory, if you're brewing by ratio you are killing your shot at the desired weight of output, so weigh it rather than base your weight on an inaccurate extrapolation from volume.
> 
> ...


Ok great stuff, so I'll weigh the coffee out on the scales and cut it at the correct weight. Magic.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

I've recently been weighing my shots after just eyeing in the volume to around 60-70ml over 25-30 seconds. I can now achieve around 36-38g from a 17g dose in 27seconds but to be perfectly honest I don't really like the taste and the volume produced is around 50ml including crema, which once settled is around 30ml which is a very short drink for me. I actually much prefer the flavour of a 50g/60-70ml shot. Both have lots of crema, but the smaller volume/lower weight shot just tastes too intense and a touch bitter on the palate..........and it's drunk in a couple of sips.

Is this wrong?


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

If you dont like it then its wrong for you. Not sure which way it needs to be dialled (finer or coarser) but someone will say shortly


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

np123 said:


> Ok great stuff, so I'll weigh the coffee out on the scales and cut it at the correct weight. Magic.


You will need to learn the latency of your scales. Ie on my scales and set-up if I cut the shot at 35g it finishes 40-42g depending on the coffee and flow rate.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> I've recently been weighing my shots after just eyeing in the volume to around 60-70ml over 25-30 seconds. I can now achieve around 36-38g from a 17g dose in 27seconds but to be perfectly honest I don't really like the taste and the volume produced is around 50ml including crema, which once settled is around 30ml which is a very short drink for me. I actually much prefer the flavour of a 50g/60-70ml shot. Both have lots of crema, but the smaller volume/lower weight shot just tastes too intense and a touch bitter on the palate..........and it's drunk in a couple of sips.
> 
> Is this wrong?


Ok go back to the shot and drink you enjoy.

A brew ratio is there to help to make what you like each time , not a set of numbers that we all must enjoy....

Sounds like to me you prefer a less intense espresso ( strength wise )

this isnt right or wrong , just what you enjoy ....

There is no " correct brew ratio " for all peopel or for all coffees just a recipe which you enjoy ....which can be different to the one i enjoy , which can differ for different coffees you use...

If you want and enjoy 17g dose with 50g out over the same time , then go coarser.....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> Is this wrong?


Not if you like it


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

What I don't really understand is that in order to achieve 36g from an 18g dose, the *liquid *coffee element can only be ~36ml *at the absolute maximum*, assuming that the Crema weighs nothing (which is of course an wrong assumption). If the crema weighs say 10% of the weight of the liquid coffee, and you get a lot of crema then the liquid coffee can only be around ~30ml. If you've got beans which don't produce much crema, you could quite easily be stopping a double shot at say 35-40ml which is a very short drink for a double which historically should be around 60-75ml (2-2.5oz).

All I know is I much prefer the 60-75ml volume shots in 25-30seconds with a nice 5-10mm head of crema on them rather than the 50-60ml volume shots with almost half of the shot being crema. Maybe I'm a lungo man?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

np123 said:


> I just tightened it about as far as I could safely take it, and it took about 30 seconds. However the weighed output in a 60ml glass was 64 grams. Am I being really stupid?


You should be able to easily choke your machine with the Mignon. Go finer.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> What I don't really understand is that in order to achieve 36g from an 18g dose, the *liquid *coffee element can only be ~36ml *at the absolute maximum*, assuming that the Crema weighs nothing (which is of course an wrong assumption). If the crema weighs say 10% of the weight of the liquid coffee, and you get a lot of crema then the liquid coffee can only be around ~30ml. If you've got beans which don't produce much crema, you could quite easily be stopping a double shot at say 35-40ml which is a very short drink for a double which historically should be around 60-75ml (2-2.5oz).
> 
> All I know is I much prefer the 60-75ml volume shots in 25-30seconds with a nice 5-10mm head of crema on them rather than the 50-60ml volume shots with almost half of the shot being crema. Maybe I'm a lungo man?


What do these shots WEIGH?

If you like what you're doing, keep doing it.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> What do these shots WEIGH?
> 
> If you like what you're doing, keep doing it.


I thought I'd made that clear......but if not:

The ones that weigh 36-38g are the 45-50ml volume ones that are very intense - not unpleasant as such, but certainly not super tasty.

The ones that weigh 50g are around 60-70ml and taste much smoother, more balanced, tastier, and the drink lasts longer.

Both have tons of crema during the pour, the former is nearly 50% crema head after a minute or so, where as the latter is around 15% crema after a minute.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Crema is of no real value. Taste it by itself on a spoon. yaaaaak


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> I thought I'd made that clear......but if not:
> 
> The ones that weigh 36-38g are the 45-50ml volume ones that are very intense - not unpleasant as such, but certainly not super tasty.
> 
> ...


Go by taste and the shot you want...

In this case to would the bigger drink

Crema to some degree doesnt really matter ( to me it doesnt taste very nice on its own )


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

NJD1977 said:


> What I don't really understand is that in order to achieve 36g from an 18g dose, the *liquid *coffee element can only be ~36ml *at the absolute maximum*, assuming that the Crema weighs nothing (which is of course an wrong assumption). If the crema weighs say 10% of the weight of the liquid coffee, and you get a lot of crema then the liquid coffee can only be around ~30ml. If you've got beans which don't produce much crema, you could quite easily be stopping a double shot at say 35-40ml which is a very short drink for a double which historically should be around 60-75ml (2-2.5oz).
> 
> All I know is I much prefer the 60-75ml volume shots in 25-30seconds with a nice 5-10mm head of crema on them rather than the 50-60ml volume shots with almost half of the shot being crema. Maybe I'm a lungo man?


The heavier the shot (from a given dose) the weaker the espresso, many like shots in a stronger range than you seem to, it's just preference...at a whole range of different weights shots can be dialled in to taste good, at the *same* level of extraction.

You seem to know where you preference lies, so stick with it.

I'd still avoid making assumptions of what % of the shot crema is.

Lungo is pretty meaningless, as you say, traditionally espresso normale has at times been more like a 1:4 to 1:5 ratio, also much less is common, terms like "normale" & "lungo", even "traditional" are really not very descriptive & usually mean different things to different people, brew ratio by weight is universal, 1:4 is 1:4 everywhere in the world.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

NJD1977 said:


> Both have tons of crema during the pour, the former is nearly 50% crema head after a minute or so, where as the latter is around 15% crema after a minute.


Which is why we weigh the pour.


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## np123 (Dec 15, 2014)

Much better now. I'm getting a solid output of 36g from an 18g dose and it tastes nice. All in around 27 seconds.

I was also using some Delonghi double walled espresso glasses which are difficult to see how much is in them, whereas bought some different glasses and its much easier.

The confusion for me was that I thought a double shot should be 60ml, whereas the reality is I never get close to that when weighing.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I was making the same mistake to start with. It doesn't help when you watch youtube videos from people like Seattle Coffee gear, who always seem to use a 2oz shot as their target and check the time to create it.

As recommended on here, I switched to weighed input/output over a defined time and found that it was much easier to get measurable differences when exploring the influence of grind and the machine's various adjustable parameters.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

NickdeBug said:


> It doesn't help when you watch youtube videos from people like Seattle Coffee gear, who always seem to use a 2oz shot as their target and check the time to create it.



View attachment 11675


They are not to be trusted.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> View attachment 11675
> 
> 
> They are not to be trusted.


Ahhhhhhhh ha


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I made the same mistake too going with the 2oz advice from Gail and whatever her name is. I do like the other stuff they do.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Gail & Kat.


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