# Machine reccomendations please



## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

Hi all,

I am looking for an E61 machine with a budget of around a £1000. I am looking to buy a machine from Bella Barista, as I have heard that they are excellent to deal with ( good customer service etc).

I did have my heart set on the Andreja Premium but that was really stretching my budget and in any case it has now gone up another £50 to £1200... doh









I have also been eyeing up the Rocket Cellini Classic for quite some time. The machine seems to fit the bill for me, but I am concerned at one comment in the review that was done for BB. Regarding the steaming performance, the reviewer comments that it is a moderate steamer and that he has recommended that Bella adjust the pressure to bring it up to par.

Now I am very much a beginner, though I am graduating from a Silvia. Cappuccinos and Flat Whites are my thing more so than just Espresso. 95% of the time I'll be steaming so you can see my dilemma.

Does anyone here have any experience with the Cellini Classic and its steaming abilities? Any reccomendations at alternative machines?

I am mainly looking for:

Great read easy steaming (I am prepeared to practise of course







).

Solid build quality/reliability

Beautiful looks









Many thanks

Steve


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Just had a quick look at the review you mention, the issue of having to tweak the boiler pressure to increase boiler pressure should not be a concern as it could apply to any HX machine when setting them up optimally. Lower boiler pressure equals cooler water temperature for brewing with consequent lower volume cooling flushes being required, conversely higher boiler pressure equals hotter water for brewing and consequent higher volume cooling flushes, the benfit being more powerful steaming performance.

I would assume that Bella Baristas technician would set the machine up for the best overall performance, I`m sure the HX users on here will offer more insight.

Additionally the review does reveal a smallish drip tray compared to some of the competition so you might have to get into the routine of flushing into a jug, you might already be doing this with the Silvia as part of temperature surfing as I and others do due to its small drip tray.

At your price point I would be tempted to consider the dual boiler Expobar machine as well, also described as a moderate steamer though.

Don


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I have a Rocket Premium Plus, which is, by and large, the same machine, and have no issues or problems with it at all. I understand what you are saying about looks, as that was the eventual decider in buying the Rocket in may case. At around your budget I don't think that there are any bad E-61 machines - it's all down to personal preference, though I do understand how difficult it is to make a decision in a field where you have little hands-on experience and are committing a large sum of money.

Steaming on the Rocket is a delight - if anything, too much power. BB individually test all the machines before sending them out. Give them a ring and talk to Claudette - she will happily spend as much time as you need answering your queries, and set your mind at rest before buying.

I'll think you'll find other Rocket users equally enthusiastic about their machines, they are a quality product, made by a medium size company owned jointly by 2 New Zealanders and an Italian, building to a design that has been proved over donkey's years. Components are of good quality, and all spares readily available.

Just shout up if you think I can give any more help.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Having been in a similar position I would say the big question is whether you want a heat exchanger machine or a double boiler. Using a HX machine requires more practise as the water in the hx pipe which feeds the brew head is sat in a boiler at steam pressure and temperature, which means that it will be too hot to use to brew if the machine hasn't been used for a number of minutes. What this means is that you have to do a 'cooling flush' before you brew to bring the water temperature back down which essentially just means you run the pump for 10-15 seconds with no portafilter on. Whilst this isn't in itself a big problem, what it means (to me) is that unless you buy an expensive e61 thermometer you don't know what temperature your brew water is going to be (the longer you 'flush' it for the lower the water temperature drops until it plateaus at a point set by the pressurestat of the steam boiler).

This doesn't mean you won't ever get a good shot from a HX machine, far from it, lots of people (like vintagecigarman above) own them and love them and I'm sure make some lovely coffee with them. It does mean that it will take some getting used to and that repeatability of results isn't easy.

The other option, as I mentioned above, is a dual boiler (I believe the Expobar Office Leva dual boiler (Brewtus III in the US) is the only one you can consider at this price range). What you get is two smaller boilers, and at the expense of some steam power (resulting from a smaller boiler) you get a dedicated brew boiler with a PID which will keep the temperature steady. Rather than a cooling flush for HX machines you have a very short (3-4 seconds) warming flush where run the pump to clean the brew screen and bring the brew head up to temperature. I believe even though the Leva is a 'moderate steamer', it would be absolutely fine for small and medium volumes of milk and on the odd occasions you're steaming a large amount you'd just need to be a little bit more patient!

Ultimately obviously it is up to you, and as has been said before, there aren't any 'bad' machines from BB at this price point, I'm fairly sure that Claudette wouldn't sell you something that wasn't fit for the purpose. If it was me I would go for the dual boiler, but I can fully see why you would go for a HX. Keep us posted and maybe have a read of the thread that I started when I was (eventually) in a similar position. Hope that helps.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Don't let the 'cooling flush' ritual of the HX put you off. For the vast majority of home baristas, it isn't a problem It doesn't take 10-15 seconds, 5 at the most in my experience, and only for the first draw - if you're using the machine again straight away, you don't need to do it another time. Yeah, I can accept that there may be some variation in the absolute temperature of the brew water, but it is going to be minimal, and in my experience you soon develop a method of working that makes it impossible to detect any taste variation in the shots - though purists may well disagree with me. (And some even maintain that they can discern the taste difference between a rotary and a vibe powered pump machine, though this beats my tasting skills!) The brew head is heated by a very effective thermosyphon in the Rocket machines.

It's horses for courses - I can see the appeal of a dual boiler, but for me, generally just making espresso, the HX appeared the better route. (But don't think that means that a HX won't steam milk as well - and do it at the same time as you're running the shot!)

Getting used to a HX isn't a big deal - you'll spend a lot longer getting to grips with the correct grind for your new machine than you will in getting consistency from your cooling flush!

But, at the end of the day, lookseehear has a valuable point about the differences between the two systems, and has probably made you think even harder about your decision. Good luck!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

I suggest that the term "moderate steamer" should be taken with a pinch of salt given comments above and do bear in mind that stupidly fast steaming could in itself be a problem by not allowing enough time to produce decent microfoam.

Personally I suspect that I would be more than happy with any of these HX / dual boiler machines in terms of the espresso results and my choice would ultimately come down to aesthetics and budget. If pushed, I would have an Izzo Alex, the reported build quality and having a rotary pump (noise) would do it. (Oh I wish)


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

Thank you all for your replies. Much appreciated.

I am aware of the cooling flush required on E61 group machines and I have been lusting after the Rocket and Andreja for a good few months now. It was just the concerns over steaming milk that lead me to question this particular option. I think that a heat exchanger is the right choice for me, because I won't be trying to pull too many god shots, but rather decent consistent shots as a base for my milk drinks.

The looks of the Rocket are a big attraction http://www.rocket-espresso.it/models/the-classic/ Ooooh









I'll give Claudette a call a bit closer to pay day. I'll kep you posted. Thanks again for the advice


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

I'm liking this thread - keep us all updated on how you get on.


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## Dotty (Nov 29, 2010)

As above any further on the machine


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

Hi all, I have decided to opt for the Andreja Premium instead. It isn't back in stock until the 5th however. Fingers crossed for some christmas Coffees soon


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

E61, what in particular made you choose the Andreja over the others, interested in what made it stand out for you. I`m sure it will be a great choice.

Don


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

Looks very nice. Hope you enjoy it when it arrives.


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Brilliant, a good purchase and don't forget to post pics


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

DonRJ said:


> E61, what in particular made you choose the Andreja over the others, interested in what made it stand out for you. I`m sure it will be a great choice.
> 
> Don


It's mainly the fact that I have been lusting over one of these machines for so long now. I feel that if I buy something else now, I'll regret not going for the Andreja a few months down the line.

Two gauges

Large capacity drip tray

Lovely curvy high grade stainless steel case










Andreja should be arriving tomorrow


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

E61 you must be really excited, I know I would be. Hope you have plenty of beans on board. Enjoy.


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

I am









I have ordered some from Square Mile but they won't be here by tomorrow. I'll have a walk over to the shopping centre that is hardily on my door step and nip into Costa if needed. I have charged my camera ready for pics


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

Has it arrived?


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

Well its here and Bella included a kilo of beans and a lovely measuring glass, but it seems that Quick Mill didn't inclcude any filter baskets in there with the portafilters... doh







No Coffee today then


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

I have ordered a Synesso Triple from Coffeehit and a naked portafilter (with double basket) from Happy Donkey. It's going to be at least Thursday now though







. I'' take some pictures tomorrow.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Can't understand there being no basket with the kit - must be a real disappointment to have your hands on the machine and not be able to use it. I'd have thought BB would have checked it out for completeness before posting.

Is the kilo of beans a dark Neapolitan roast - they generously supplied the same to me when I bought my latest grinder. I'm not knocking the generosity and thoughtfulness of the gesture of including the beans (they did save me some of my better beans whilst dialling in) but I found that the best use for them was grinding them and spreading them on the ice on my drive to give a bit of traction - certainly a better use than making coffee with them! ;>)))


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

The little box containing the portafilter handles, plastic scoop-tamper, brush etc, was sealed. I'll give them a call to alert them and hopefully prevent others from being caught out. Yep, that's the stuff. I thought that it would be usueful for dialing in at least.


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

Here it is


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Looking good.

Can already think of another 1/2 dozen useful accessories for you too


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Gosh, that's pretty!


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

Very nice, I can see why that machine floated your boat.

Don (now oozing machine envy)


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

B-E-A-UTIFUL!

lovely set up that i can only look on with envy (for now!)


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## Greenpotterer (Nov 29, 2009)

My Gaggia has turned green. Oh sorry its reflecting my envy

Gaz


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## BanishInstant (Oct 12, 2009)

What a great setup. Hope all that researching and angst has paid off.


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## sandykt (Dec 3, 2009)

That is one nice looking machine. Interested to hear how you get on over the next few weeks. Enjoy.


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

Thanks all.

Glenn, I have a milk thermometer, group head brush and another jug too, but these were just not in my staged pic









I am very bad at all this Coffee making lark right now, but I'm going to enjoy practising at least.

I have managed to get a few decent shots pulled so far. The Quick Mill baskets are on the way from BB too


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## E61 (Apr 1, 2010)

The baskets arrived this morning and I have finished off the tin of Costa Coffee. Not bad stuff for use in an emergency







. I have yet to try the Square Mile blend yet because I'm already wired. I have had much better results with the milk today, though I'm not quite there yet.

I'm loving the machine though. It's so satisfying to use


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