# Daily Telegraph article



## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/retailandconsumer/10327484/The-priciest-part-of-your-takeaway-coffee-Its-the-cup-not-the-beans.html

The title of the link tells it all, the most expensive bit about paying over £2 for a drink is the cup

Ian


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

That's interesting. So if a medium cappu is made with a 14 g double shot of coffee, that would equate to a cost to the chains of less than £6 per kilo. Explains a few things...

The analysts are saying that the high prices represent good value for customers because they consume their beverage sitting in the cafe. So there's a case for takeaway drinks to cost significantly less, which they do not.


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## Dave_E (Jun 13, 2013)

Coffee - 8 pence.

VAT - 37 pence.

Shocking


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

According to the quoted retail analyst, "Coffee is now a very big part of the social experience of British society (don't you just love media gobbledegook). People spend a lot of time there [in coffee shops]"

Clearly the quality of coffee they are drinking isn't at the top of their priorities.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

They wont demand what they dont (yet) know exists


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Something of a contradiction in the article in that it highlights take-away coffee and then goes on to the merits of the coffee shop social experience.

Overall, what else should we expect? It's the result of the mass produced, standardised, sterilised world we live in. The caffè experience of a little white cup half full with Espresso with crema as well as a Cappuccino in a glass cup both with saucer and a little shiny teaspoon is largely gone. But when Baristi are trained to press buttons and fill paper cups we cannot really expect much more.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> But when Baristi are trained to press buttons and fill paper cups we cannot really expect much more.


The machines used are high tech and expensive - if they are programmed by someone who knows and cares about what they are doing, they are capable of producing excellent quality shots within very fine tolerances. But, as Gary above says, if customers can be palmed off with shoddily made drinks using inferior beans, why bother going the extra mile? What screams out from the article is that the 'social experience' is, sadly, more important to those visiting such establishments than the quality of the coffee provided.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

So the largest part of the cost are the wages, then the business rates and facilities, then the administration. The cost of the cup IS NOT the priciest part whereas the article title IS intentionally sensationalistic. Title should have been "cup, lid, stirrer, napkin and sugar cost more than 14g of coffee grinds". No kidding. End of rant.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> The machines used are high tech and expensive - if they are programmed by someone who knows and cares about what they are doing, they are capable of producing excellent quality shots within very fine tolerances. But, as Gary above says, if *customers can be palmed off with shoddily made drinks using inferior beans,* why bother going the extra mile? What screams out from the article is that the 'social experience' is, sadly, more important to those visiting such establishments than the quality of the coffee provided.


Not many industries where that approach is acceptable. Oh actually look at ''beer'' in pubs


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> But, as Gary above says, if customers can be palmed off with shoddily made drinks using inferior beans, why bother going the extra mile?


They might well be using inferior beans, but they are not paying inferior prices. 8p for a double is a fair amount of money. I calculate I pay 13p for 14g of top quality coffee as a home user. Not much more than starbucks it would seem. I am actually surprised by how much it cost to them (if the article is to be believed).


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Presumably, the 8p figure includes total wastage per shot, so will in fact represent more than the 14 g that makes it into the basket. So bulk cost is well below the £6 figure; perhaps nearer £5/kg.


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Not many industries where that approach is acceptable. Oh actually look at ''beer'' in pubs


In the coffee shop industry that is acceptable. If we're talking real caffè we're talking real cups and glasses and saucers and spoons and a grinder and coffee beans and not the standard beaker where we suck pre-programmed, wishy-washy coffee from a little opening in the lid. Sometimes it's like going into a pub and ordering a double Jim n Tomic and getting it in a pint glass overloaded with Tomic! There is caffè and there is coffee and never the twain shall meet. Ranting about cups over now


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

reality in coffee shops that care. assuming a double per cup

coffee 30p (minimum)

milk 11p

cup 5p

overheads make up the rest, so in essence rent/mortgage is the most expensive part of the drink


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

geordie-barista said:


> reality in coffee shops that care. assuming a double per cup
> 
> coffee 30p (minimum)
> 
> ...


Let's work this out then. 30p in coffee for a double. Let's assume 18g (and that's a very large double) are you saying that the coffee shop that cares should pay £8.50 for a 500gm bag of coffee?

Why?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

And business rates ,they are a bloody killer for anyone on the high street, cost of training , more cost of training if staff leave. Getting rid of rubbish ( labels for big bags in Lancaster that we have to buy from the council cost £4 ), on top of business rates which are meant to cover the collection of said rubbish etc. Did I say business rates .....







oh mine went up this year on top of the 3 pc increase as they voted to levy extra money to improve the area and drive trade, at a time when most rent review signed are upwards only and there are more empty places on the high street than ever .. Anyway did the extra money go towards Free parking schemes - no . Reduced parking charges - no . £50k on a salary for someone to run the said improvement scheme .- yes .


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

A number of extremely quality focused and experienced coffeeshop owners have all mentioned on Twitter today that the cost of the beans is closer to 23-30p per cup and not the 8p quoted

You can buy coffee at that price but you probably wouldn't want to drink it unless you drowned it in a bucket of milk


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

Actually I am realising my mistake here, all along thinking of prices for a 250gm bag but calculating for 500gm.

£8.50 for 1/2 kilo does seem an accurate price. Moreover, 8p per cup is definitely too little.

Please ignore my comments above and sorry if my confusion has made you wonder about my sanity.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

The Allegra Strategies site has some links to industry articles

http://www.allegrastrategies.com/News.aspx

Here's an interesting infographic of man-in-street coffeeshop opinions - note Costa appears to now be higher profile than *$$$


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

The milk would be burned so best leave it anyway











Glenn said:


> A number of extremely quality focused and experienced coffeeshop owners have all mentioned on Twitter today that the cost of the beans is closer to 23-30p per cup and not the 8p quoted
> 
> You can buy coffee at that price but you probably wouldn't want to drink it unless you drowned it in a bucket of milk


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Glenn said:


> A number of extremely quality focused and experienced coffeeshop owners have all mentioned on Twitter today that the cost of the beans is closer to 23-30p per cup and not the 8p quoted
> 
> You can buy coffee at that price but you probably wouldn't want to drink it unless you drowned it in a bucket of milk


I both concur and disagree. Taking as an example 1KG of Lavazza beans at £12.00p (Amazon) and using 25g in a clever dripper the cost per cup is 30p per 1-2 cups. But in an Espresso machine we would use around 7g of coffee so the cost per cup is £0.08p. And that's at retail prices. When buying in bulk the price per cup of Espresso is likely to be less than 8p per cup. If we were to use beans from an artisan roaster the cost is likely to be double at £0.16p per cup of Espresso.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Anthorn said:


> I both concur and disagree. Taking as an example 1KG of Lavazza beans at £12.00p (Amazon) and using 25g in a clever dripper the cost per cup is 30p per 1-2 cups. But in an Espresso machine we would use around 7g of coffee so the cost per cup is £0.08p. And that's at retail prices. When buying in bulk the price per cup of Espresso is likely to be less than 8p per cup. If we were to use beans from an artisan roaster the cost is likely to be double at £0.16p per cup of Espresso.


The shops Glenn speaks of wouldn't use lavazza also if you take the cheapest speciality coffee you're looking at £16 per kilo.

So 1000/18=55

1600/55=29

That's assuming zero wastage and all doubles.

I made 18g doubles. And always had waste. Dialing in mistaken orders etc.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

geordie-barista said:


> The shops Glenn speaks of wouldn't use lavazza also if you take the cheapest speciality coffee you're looking at £16 per kilo.


Lavazza Expression would. Actually something of a disaster in the U.K. with the master franchiser being terminated by Lavazza only in the nick of time before a winding up order was granted and those who paid for their franchise losing their money. But according to Lavazza a new master franchiser is to be named and there could be something of a revolution in coffee shops since Lavazza coffee is highly reputable in the U.K., probably more so than Starbucks or Costa.


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

So do you work for lavazza?

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

12 quid a kilo for Lavazza? Wow thats steep.

You can get some amazing coffees from top roasters (if a wholesale customer) for not much more than that


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

geordie-barista said:


> So do you work for lavazza?
> 
> Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk 4


No, I don't work for Lavazza but I know what a Lavazza Expressions shop/store is and I've been inside a few of them. I'd say that if it ever gets off the planning stage in the U.K. watch out for coffee shop closures.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> Lavazza Expression would. Actually something of a disaster in the U.K. with the master franchiser being terminated by Lavazza only in the nick of time before a winding up order was granted and those who paid for their franchise losing their money. But according to Lavazza a new master franchiser is to be named and there could be something of a revolution in coffee shops since Lavazza coffee is highly reputable in the U.K., probably more so than Starbucks or Costa.


The Italian coffee we get over here just is not the same as the stuf in Italy, illy, lavazza etc keep the best stuff in Italy, that said it is not really that good anyway, so how it will be a revolution I don't know, perhaps you should try some really good fresh roasted coffee, instead of the stale, god knows when it was roasted stuff that comes over from Italy.

A revolution would be British coffee shops buying British quality roasted beans!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anthorn said:


> No, I don't work for Lavazza but I know what a Lavazza Expressions shop/store is and I've been inside a few of them. I'd say that if it ever gets off the planning stage in the U.K. watch out for coffee shop closures.


I am unclear how lavazza will deliver great tasting coffee without fresh roasted beans, unless they are going to move them very quickly from Italy and then have a proper shelf life for them, as an artisan cafe would . Otherwise they will be just another chain making coffee from stale beans . Please honestly , give me your insight into What is it about the stores that you have seen that makes you think they would be anything different from a costa or Nero as I am genuinely intrigued .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How stale are Lavazza's beans? Can anyone give me a quantifiable number?

I'm not sure what Anthorn's point is in focussing on Lavazza, but Lavazza beans aren't typically stale (as in carry significant defect) on opening the bag. It isn't unreasonable to think that a high turnover franchise could get beans within a month of roast, even if they weren't packaged in a protective atmosphere.

I'm not sure what the Lavazza bashing (or any other mass market purveyor of espresso blends, which gets a bit tiresome) serves this particular discussion? The article was about the big chains, it would be nice if they had the odd guest bean, but single origin/small lots just aren't going to feature in the equation.

Rant over.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> How stale are Lavazza's beans? Can anyone give me a quantifiable number?
> 
> I'm not sure what Anthorn's point is in focussing on Lavazza, but Lavazza beans aren't typically stale (as in carry significant defect) on opening the bag. It isn't unreasonable to think that a high turnover franchise could get beans within a month of roast, even if they weren't packaged in a protective atmosphere.
> 
> ...


I wasn't stating they were stale, I was asking if they don't fresh roast on site and provide a decent shelf date the they would be serving stale coffee, . I can see why it's comings cross as bashing , but I was genuine interested to see why this insight would be classed as revolutionary , if it's just a format with photos and decor the it doesn't do anything for me .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I wasn't stating they were stale, I was asking if they don't fresh roast on site and provide a decent shelf date the they would be serving stale coffee, . I can see why it's comings cross as bashing , but I was genuine interested to see why this insight would be classed as revolutionary , if it's just a format with photos and decor the it doesn't do anything for me .


Even if they roast fresh on site, those beans may not go into a grinder for a week or two. Granted that is probably much less time than mass market blends sit around, but they do make some effort to counter this. I would rather have a well made shot with Lavazza beans, than a bad shot of artisan roasted SO (there's definitely a case for considering the workman as well as the tools)...of course, a well crafted shot of great beans trumps either, but even if this were a realistic high st proposition, it wouldn't happen in every store, every day in a big chain, no matter what they charged, or what proportion of the cup cost represented the beans.

If one of the big chains turned around tomorrow & said they were switching beans to one of the roasters popular on this forum, we as a community couldn't agree on who that should be...then that roaster would simply take the place of Lavazza/Costa as the new whipping boy... ;-)


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

MWJB said:


> I'm not sure what Anthorn's point is in focussing on Lavazza


I put my points badly and apologise for that. I'm focussing on the main topic of the article which is the cost of coffee in the cups (beakers) provided by coffee shops and the overall relationship to the coffee shop experience. To that end Lavazza Expressions shops is valid. I used the example of Lavazza beans because they are what I regard as a medium priced quality bean which would roughly equate to the wholesale (bulk) price paid by coffee shops.

On new info posted by MrBoots2u: Are we taking roasted on the premises or ground on the premises? In my experience very few coffee shops roast on the premises while a good many of them grind on the premises. On freshness, isn't that why we buy beans? If we buy ground we need to use the coffee within 3 days of opening or throw it in the bin. But with beans we can turn those days into weeks.

I use Lavazza beans and have done so for many years and have no problems at all with the freshness or quality. In fact my OH is currently bugging me to buy a Lavazza a modo mio capsule machine because her sister has one. Having tasted the coffee from it I can understand why she wants one although I prefer freshly ground beans in a Moka pot. But having compared Lavazza coffee beans with those from specialist (artisan) roasters in the U.K. I must say that I don't notice the difference.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> How stale are Lavazza's beans? Can anyone give me a quantifiable number?
> 
> I'm not sure what Anthorn's point is in focussing on Lavazza, but Lavazza beans aren't typically stale (as in carry significant defect) on opening the bag. It isn't unreasonable to think that a high turnover franchise could get beans within a month of roast, even if they weren't packaged in a protective atmosphere.
> 
> ...


I wasn't stating that all their beans are stale, I was asking if they don't use fresh roasted within a proper time scale provide a decent shelf date then they would be serving stale coffee, . I can see why it's comings cross as bashing , but I was genuine interested to see why this insight would be classed as revolutionary , if it's just a format with photos and decor the it doesn't do anything for me ,and looking at the blurb on the internet is all I was seeing was lovely photos and mentions of exciting decor etc.

Edited to actually make sense apologies hope it reads better


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Lavazza are big enough and ugly enough to take a bashing


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anthorn Just out of interest, am asking out i of genuine enthusiasm for the roasters I use , not to bash anyone , which roasters in the uk have you tried , there is some seriously good coffee out there. Let us try and give you some recommendations to lavazza and see if we can change your mind


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Anthorn Just out of interest, am asking out i of genuine enthusiasm for the roasters I use , not to bash anyone , which roasters in the uk have you tried , there is some seriously good coffee out there. Let us try and give you some recommendations to lavazza and see if we can change your mind


I'm not going to name them for one very simple reason: I haven't used their coffee in an Espresso machine and to be fair, the comparative results could be different.

But have you tried Lavazza beans? If not it's impossible for you to make a comparison and say that any bean is better.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> I'm not going to name them for one very simple reason: I haven't used their coffee in an Espresso machine and to be fair, the comparative results could be different.
> 
> But have you tried Lavazza beans? If not it's impossible for you to make a comparison and say that any bean is better.


I have tried lavazza beans, I have tried illy beans ( the premium Italian roaster) and can honestly say that they are not as good as the locally roasted beans I have tried. Italian roasted beans suit moka pots, Italian roasted beans suit the caffeine obsessed Italian culture of get the hit as quickly as possible then walk out of the bar, Italian roasted beans have a percentage of robusta ( as it has a higher caffeine content). The Italian roasted beans I have tried have tended to be roasted on the dark side and don't have the subtle flavours that medium or lighter roasted beans have. Perhaps you should get an amodo Mio it sounds right up your street.

As far as mwjbs rant goes, I agree the major brands might be able to get beans out in a reasonable time, however is that what happens? Why not go into a local coffee shop that prepares coffee using those Italian brands and check out the roast dates, then tell me they are still comparatively fresh, then perhaps lavazza, illy, vergnano, or which ever Italian roaster can stop having a bashing. I personally think that the standard of the coffee supplied to the Italian coffee shops is far fresher than what comes over here, or perhaps it is just the Italians use up so much more of it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> I have tried lavazza beans, I have tried illy beans ( the premium Italian roaster) and can honestly say that they are not as good as the locally roasted beans I have tried. Italian roasted beans suit moka pots, Italian roasted beans suit the caffeine obsessed Italian culture of get the hit as quickly as possible then walk out of the bar, Italian roasted beans have a percentage of robusta ( as it has a higher caffeine content). The Italian roasted beans I have tried have tended to be roasted on the dark side and don't have the subtle flavours that medium or lighter roasted beans have. Perhaps you should get an amodo Mio it sounds right up your street.
> 
> As far as mwjbs rant goes, I agree the major brands might be able to get beans out in a reasonable time, however is that what happens? Why not go into a local coffee shop that prepares coffee using those Italian brands and check out the roast dates, then tell me they are still comparatively fresh, then perhaps lavazza, illy, vergnano, or which ever Italian roaster can stop having a bashing. I personally think that the standard of the coffee supplied to the Italian coffee shops is far fresher than what comes over here, or perhaps it is just the Italians use up so much more of it.


Lavazza & Illy sell pure arabica beans too, even SO in Illy's case (too pricey though). Lavazza also do medium roasted beans. Italian roasted beans in the UK are over roasted & contain robusta, but in Italy they are so fresh, the roast level & robusta don't affect the taste? That's more than freshness at work, that's magic ;-)

If a "local" roaster was supplying a chain the size of Starbucks, Costa, or Nero (how could it be local to all the stores?), how would they guarantee beans would be used within an appropriate period, any better than those chains do now? Being small allows the luxury of working to perhaps just one man's idea of perfection, being big ends up driven by commitee & the bean counters...pun intended ;-)

I don't disagree with the principle of using local/small/preferred roasters (I do it every week, though we can all buy the same beans from different roasters and end up with a very different product), it's just that when talking about the big chains, it's not really relevant.

We like diversity, character, the challenge of getting the best out of different beans, we're prepared to take a punt & spend an impractical amount of time dialling in & to "kiss a few frogs" as it were...but that's not what a large chain is after. We all know the way we are typically doing things is best for cup quality, but could we scale it up nationwide, retain the quality & make a profit?

The big 3 chains are doing something that seemingly holds no interest for the core of the forum, yet we seem to spend an inordinate amount of time debating where/what/how they are going wrong.


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I have tried lavazza beans, I have tried illy beans ( the premium Italian roaster) and can honestly say that they are not as good as the locally roasted beans I have tried. Italian roasted beans suit moka pots, Italian roasted beans suit the caffeine obsessed Italian culture of get the hit as quickly as possible then walk out of the bar, Italian roasted beans have a percentage of robusta ( as it has a higher caffeine content). The Italian roasted beans I have tried have tended to be roasted on the dark side and don't have the subtle flavours that medium or lighter roasted beans have. Perhaps you should get an amodo Mio it sounds right up your street.
> 
> As far as mwjbs rant goes, I agree the major brands might be able to get beans out in a reasonable time, however is that what happens? Why not go into a local coffee shop that prepares coffee using those Italian brands and check out the roast dates, then tell me they are still comparatively fresh, then perhaps lavazza, illy, vergnano, or which ever Italian roaster can stop having a bashing. I personally think that the standard of the coffee supplied to the Italian coffee shops is far fresher than what comes over here, or perhaps it is just the Italians use up so much more of it.


Since a modo mio was specifically mentioned let's look at that first: 8 blends only one of which is dark roast, two are Arabica/Robusta blends at 50/50 and 80/20. The rest are medium roast 100% Arabica of which one is decaffeinated and one is from Rain Forest friendly sources. The Lavazza line-up is similar with only one dark roast and one an Arabica/ Robusta blend of 70/30, the rest being medium roast 100% Arabica one of which is decaffeinated and one is Rain Forest friendly sources. In fact it's a similar story whichever Italian producer we look at.

Your appraisal of Italians and Italian coffee would possibly be true 40 years ago but is not true any more. Yes, there are those who prefer strong, caffeine laden coffee myself included. But these days in the Italian coffee market, medium roast 100% Arabica rules!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> Since a modo mio was specifically mentioned let's look at that first: 8 blends only one of which is dark roast, two are Arabica/Robusta blends at 50/50 and 80/20. The rest are medium roast 100% Arabica of which one is decaffeinated and one is from Rain Forest friendly sources. The Lavazza line-up is similar with only one dark roast and one an Arabica/ Robusta blend of 70/30, the rest being medium roast 100% Arabica one of which is decaffeinated and one is Rain Forest friendly sources. In fact it's a similar story whichever Italian producer we look at.
> 
> Your appraisal of Italians and Italian coffee would possibly be true 40 years ago but is not true any more. Yes, there are those who prefer strong, caffeine laden coffee myself included. But these days in the Italian coffee market, medium roast 100% Arabica rules!


Really????? I live there and my family are Italian and they won't drink coffee that I like, odd! They prefer the mainstream coffee that 90 percent of Italians drink in bars. Amodo Mio coffee machines are shite, the coffee they produce bears no resemblance to the coffee I get from my lever and conical, I appreciate they cost a lot less, but your comments about espresso are coming from someone who does not have an espresso machine ( or at least according to most who know that moka pots are not espresso producing coffee vessels).

Anyway I think I will bow out of this thread as it has strayed away from the original telegraph article.


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## Anthorn (Sep 14, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Really????? I live there and my family are Italian and they won't drink coffee that I like, odd! They prefer the mainstream coffee that 90 percent of Italians drink in bars. Amodo Mio coffee machines are shite, the coffee they produce bears no resemblance to the coffee I get from my lever and conical, I appreciate they cost a lot less, but your comments about espresso are coming from someone who does not have an espresso machine ( or at least according to most who know that moka pots are not espresso producing coffee vessels).
> 
> Anyway I think I will bow out of this thread as it has strayed away from the original telegraph article.


Mine too; My father is English and my Mother is half Italian/Welsh and the extended family all over the world keep in touch through a Facebook group.

Illy is interesting: For years they produced the same blend in different roastings but now produce an additional Moka blend. From that do we deduce that Italians are going back to their Moka pots or that Illy is catering more for what we perceive Italians to be?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Anthorn said:


> Mine too; My father is English and my Mother is half Italian/Welsh and the extended family all over the world keep in touch through a Facebook group.
> 
> Illy is interesting: For years they produced the same blend in different roastings but now produce an additional Moka blend. From that do we deduce that Italians are going back to their Moka pots or that Illy is catering more for what we perceive Italians to be?


The illy red beans are all roasted the same, what the illy moka coffee is, is the red bean ground to the correct consistency for a moka pot, as the grind in a moka pot should be slightly coarser than for espresso from an espresso machine, so what we can deduce from that is that Illy have catered to the Italian habit of predominantly using Moka pots in the home environment. Italians always have and always will use their moka pots, it is a slightly different drink to espresso, in fact I really enjoy a moka pot in the morning followed by a cappuccino at my local bar for a three group lever machine.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> The illy red beans are all roasted the same, what the illy moka coffee is, is the red bean ground to the correct consistency for a moka pot, as the grind in a moka pot should be slightly coarser than for espresso from an espresso machine, so what we can deduce from that is that Illy have catered to the Italian habit of predominantly using Moka pots in the home environment. Italians always have and always will use their moka pots, it is a slightly different drink to espresso, in fact I really enjoy a moka pot in the morning followed by a cappuccino at my local bar for a three group lever machine.


I was explaining this the other day. When I lived in Italy, the relatively few who had espresso machines at home would use them in the evening or after dinner parties. In the morning, the residential areas of Rome have that wonderful smell of moka pots. I love the smell of the house in the morning after a moka brew. All the brands have their Moka equivalents. The use of the word 'espresso' came to mean a 'quick' shot - usually had in a bar.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> I live there and my family are Italian and they won't drink coffee that I like, odd!"


Ever tried making them an Italian espresso? (I.e. Just less than 1 oz from 7g to 8g ground in 25 seconds?)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Wando64 said:


> Ever tried making them an Italian espresso? (I.e. Just less than 1 oz from 7g to 8g ground in 25 seconds?)


The issue is more that mt family won't have an espresso machine in the house. I have made them Italian espresso on a lever with beans roasted here, they said " it is not strong enough"!!!!! And that was a double split beaten two cups so exactly the same as you are suggesting 15 gram into two


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> they said " it is not strong enough"!!!!!


Wow. Robusta addiction?

I thought the problem was the opposite. Personally I cannot drink a double and I've lost count of the times I had to explain I want a single even though the double cost the same.


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

Typically, a lot of the internationally less well known espresso brands use 80% strong Brazilian beans with 20% robusta. This combination produces strength but more than anything a lot of body and a kick. If I remember correctly, a few of my friends used Kimbo which is more or less this combination.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

To my non specialty coffee friends strength tends to be categorised by a)bitterness and b)caffeine.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

In a standard etail environment, it used to be you bought something or £1.00 and sold it for £1.50 lets ignore vat). Out of that 50p profit, you paid your expenses. So, a mark up of 50% actually gives a gross profit of around 33%. Once the expenses are taken off then that net figure drops down to whatever it maybe.

Now, with the cost of running high street operations being so expensive, a different formula kicks in. They work out the expense ratio covering everything. Then allocate that % per £ then factor in the required net profit and the result is that for example, an item costing £1.00 now has to sell at £4.78 in order to achieve a net profit of 22%, for example.

So, there is no relationship between the cost of raw materials and the point of sale. It is an expense based exercise. Where this falls down, is that the consumer expects excellence for this service, and most of the coffees shops we think of could not give a damn....which is why the big boys always have the best sites and unless the independents have some big bucks, they always have to settle for second tier locations.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The other point is this. If you buy beans, or almost anything which is exclusively sold through supermarkets, then the only thing you can guarantee is that it is aimed at the section of the market who know nowt about the topic!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Wando64 said:


> Wow. Robusta addiction?
> 
> I thought the problem was the opposite. Personally I cannot drink a double and I've lost count of the times I had to explain I want a single even though the double cost the same.


They didn't have a double, they had two singles from a double.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> In a standard etail environment, it used to be you bought something or £1.00 and sold it for 31.50 lets ignore vat). Out of that 50p profit, you paid your epenses. So, a mark up of 50`5 actually gives a gross profit of around 33%. Once the expenses are taken off then that net figure drops down to whatever it maybe.
> 
> Now, with the cost of running high street operations being so expensive, a different formula kicks in. They work out the expense ration covering everything. Then allocate that % per £ then factor in the required net profit and the result is that for example, an item costing £1.00 now has to sell at £4.78 in porder to achieve a net profit of 22%, for example.
> 
> So, there is no relationship between the cost of raw materials and the point of sale. It is an expense based excercise. Where this falls down, is that the consumer expects excellence for this service, and most of the coffees shops we think of could not give a damn....which is why the big boys always have the best sites and unless the independents have some big bucks, they always have to settle for second tier locations.


Hit the nail on the head for high street retail businesses re running costs


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