# Searching for the Holy Grail: Italian style and quality espresso - advice please.



## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

My requirement is simple: I want to be able to make an Italian quality espresso i.e. un caffe o caffe ristretto.

Obviously milk steaming/foaming for proper cappuccini is important too, but the priority is the espresso.

I emphasise the Italian-style aspect because I appreciate that there are many other coffee cultures that are high quality in their own way; however it's just that my life long preference is the espresso that is served in bars all over Italy; Italians or people who travel to Italy frequently will understand what I mean, and it is to them that I am addressing this question.

I appreciate that many Italians would say that it's not possible in the UK because the water is not as soft (I will not risk straying into the heated debate regarding which part of Italy makes the best coffee, or whether the water in Napoli means theirs is unique etc).

However, I have occasionally had similar quality here as well, and in the US, so I believe it is possible to come very close to that ideal.

I shall be visiting BellaBarista soon for a demo of a few machines; I have been in touch several times with Claudette (who appears to be a legend on this website).

I have noted their package deals of machine + grinder, given the grinder is clearly essential.

The machines under consideration include, but are not limited to, the Rocket evoluzione v2, Quickmill Andreja Premium Plus, Expobar Leva.

I am curious as to whether anybody on here has an opinion as to the best machine, by make, or by DB or HX, to achieve this. I do realise that a HX machine requires a certain amount of manual intervention/calibration, specifically in 'flushing', however I also gather that this is relatively simple to learn.

I am new to this forum but have browsed may threads on here and I like the general tone of shared enthusiasm and constructive opinion. I am aware that I'm asking a fairly typical question, however I wanted to specifically emphasise the focus on attaining that Italian-style coffee.

Thank you in advance for your time.

regards, Robert


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

If preferring Italian style coffee from Southern Italy which as I understand, use Lever machines, then your choice of machines surely should include a Lever. Just my opinion !


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Robert, if you think of your position, then you have a ladder in front of you and the question is, how far up the coffee ladder do you want to join? If you join halfway up, with an Expobar Leva or entry level Rocket, you will soon look at those higher up and think, should I have plunged in deeper! It seems that many on here, including the chap who helped develop it think the Verona is by far the best machine available, but also one of the dearest.

Remember, whatever machine you buy is simplyb making coffee from whatever your grinder churns out, so which one is more important? Could you identify a coffee made on a Rocket to one made on an expobar?

Set a budget, and buy the best you can, it will work out cheaper in the long run! Then one day, you will wake up and say you wish you had bought a lever at the start!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

All good machines ,,,

All will make great coffee but since you mentioned traditional Italian espresso .....

gonna throw a spanner in the works and with the word. " lever "

if you are looking at the traditional Neapolitan rich dark espresso shot , then this a great way to make a tasty shot.

Have you considered lever machines? May I ask your total budget for machine and grinder ?


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Thank you for your replies; I smiled to myself when typing my question wondering how many people would suggest a Lever machine. I have no experience with them; perhaps I should test one at BellaBarista? I understood them to require more of a 'learning curve' than calibrating a HX, for example. That is another criteria: for the operation to be sufficiently simple to provide high quality espresso that is easily repeatable on a consistent basis; after all, I will be making one every morning before work. In terms of my budget, there is no fixed amount, though I was expecting the machine to be 1k - 1.5k; but I believe the machine should last me for at least 10 years, maybe 20, and so it is better to make the right purchase now, and not compromise for the sake of saving a couple of hundred pounds. I know that the Verona is one that will be available for demo/test.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you are spending that amount of money my advice would be to explore all the options ,and in this case give your desire for traditional Italian espresso , I would include a spring lever in that . There are a few to consider , I own one you should look at the londinium . It has a very stable temperature and gives great repeatable results ( other levers are available ...)

In the end it will be personal preference what you find easier to use ,and there is a simple pleasure from using a lever machine that has to be experienced ,along with the sweet taste it produces different to a e61 group shot ( my Opinion not fact







) and all the machines mentioned will make very good espresso ,with great repeat results (if you keep know how to use them ) ,paired with a great grinder and fresh beans .

If your spending that much money and want the machine to be the last one you buy ,then try pump and levers and be sure .....

where are you based btw ...


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

I would seriously consider to demo a Lever before making a decision because if the coffee you crave is from Southern Italy they most certainly use Levers. There's the new Quickmill Veloce which will soon be reviewed by our own coffeechap I think that will be around your budget. Make sure your grinder is equally as good as everyone here will tell you it's just as important as the espresso machine


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Re learning curve, of the lever . I dose tamp , lock in here pf , pull the lever and wait for my drink ......

it's rock steady temp wise and I don't have to flush it or manager it , perhaps like you imagine a pump HX machine to work ....

what machines and experience do you have in making home espresso prior to this?

if this is your first proper machine , then I'd take some of that budget and put it aside for one on one trying also


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

I shall ask [email protected] to include a Lever machine in the demos/tests when I visit. By the way, it is not specifically Southern Italian coffee: I have found excellent coffees in Milan, Florence, Turin as well. I am based in West London and work in the City. The Eureka Mignon and Mazzer grinders seem popular; should they be good enough?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I would personally want something with a bigger burr size than a mignion if I'm spending that much money on a lever or pump machine in that price bracket . And possibly a conicals burr or a larger flat.

Re mazzer which one are you referring to. Mini ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Coffechap where are you ???.


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Yes, they have the Mazzer mini 'E' type. Out of curiosity, which machine(s) do you have?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I have a londinium I lever , it is possibly the most popular of the spring lever machines on the forum with 10 plus owners .

grinder wise I am currently waiting on a new one to arrive .

I have owned a mahlkonig k30 , a eureka mythos and a cimabli magnum ( all ex commercial larger burrs grinder ,though second hand.)

I'm sure coffeechap will pop up on here and give you some valuable experience and advice in grinders and levers and machines . Ironically I think he is currently in Italy himself or on the way back ...so will be better placed than nearly anyone on here on how to deliver that classic Italian espresso experience ....

plus he is a massive wealth of knowledge on using nearly any grinder you can think off..

Personal options I would want something further up the burr scale than a mini


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Robert_ingl_ita said:


> Yes, they have the Mazzer mini 'E' type. Out of curiosity, which machine(s) do you have?


The Mini E does not garner a lot of respect on these here forums.

With a machine in that price range the general advice would be to pair it will a grinder that is capable of getting the best out of it, I would wait for an opinion from CoffeeChap, especially when it comes to levers. But I would place a wager on him saying the Mignon is no-where near good enough when in the 1-1.5k price range on the machine. Going advice is to match your machine budget on your grinder


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Ok time for the chap to appear

As someone who spend a lot of time in Italy every month I can probably offer a good deal of sound advice. My personal preference is lever machines, I do not think you will find any other pump machine under £2000 that can touch an l1 for the style of drink you are looking to make. Quite simply they are made for that type of shot ( other shot types are available though) I am reviewing the new quickmill veloce as of Tuesday and also have an l1, you are more than welcome to come west and try them out for yourself. You can also try some fantastic grinders out at the same time

The Verona is a great machine but I think you would be absolutely nuts if you did not go for a lever ( purely for the ristretto alone)

Remember you will also need to source suitable beans to arrive the Italian flavour profile as most roaster here roast to a different market, you never know I might be able to convince you to try some other types of espresso

On the grinder front you really need to up your game and thought process, the mignon although good is not going to get the best out of a top end machine, neither is a Mazzer mini, paired to a great grinder you will be producing coffee much better than the Italians are capable of.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

D_Evans said:


> The Mini E does not garner a lot of respect on these here forums.
> 
> With a machine in that price range the general advice would be to pair it will a grinder that is capable of getting the best out of it, I would wait for an opinion from CoffeeChap, especially when it comes to levers. But I would place a wager on him saying the Mignon is no-where near good enough when in the 1-1.5k price range on the machine. Going advice is to match your machine budget on your grinder


caveat

all the grinders I previously owned were re conditioned , I did not buy at retail price and I didn't spend four figures on any of them .

if bought from a reliable and trusted source you don't have to spend £1500-2000 on a grinder

( says the man who is spending £££££ on a new grinder , yes I know ...







)


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Thanks; that is very useful. I also appreciate the appropriate coincidence that this mystical 'CoffeeChap' is currently in Italy..

So I presume this means that a 'middle' machine like the Expobar Dual Leva or Rocket evo V2 paired a high level grinder would produce superior coffee compared to something 'higher' like a Verona paired with a 'starter' grinder like a Mignon?

It is now obvious to me that I need to be sure that any demo/test includes the exact grinder-machine combo that I consider buying.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Ok time for the chap to appear
> 
> As someone who spend a lot of time in Italy every month I can probably offer a good deal of sound advice. My personal preference is lever machines, I do not think you will find any other pump machine under £2000 that can touch an l1 for the style of drink you are looking to make. Quite simply they are made for that type of shot ( other shot types are available though) I am reviewing the new quickmill veloce as of Tuesday and also have an l1, you are more than welcome to come west and try them out for yourself. You can also try some fantastic grinders out at the same time
> 
> ...


He really is the lever and grinder legend , ob1 to a lot of Luke's on here.

I would take his offer up if you can , it would be invaluable time spent.


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

I've just noticed the latest replies; thanks again.

It seems that the general consensus is definitely towards Lever machines so I certainly need to investigate them properly. I've noticed the Quickmill Veloce is on BellaBarista as well, so I will see if I can get a demo with them.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You won't get a demo as I have the only one


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

By the way, when you say 'come West' - how far West are you?!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Robert_ingl_ita said:


> Thanks; that is very useful. I also appreciate the appropriate coincidence that this mystical 'CoffeeChap' is currently in Italy..
> 
> So I presume this means that a 'middle' machine like the Expobar Dual Leva or Rocket evo V2 paired a high level grinder would produce superior coffee compared to something 'higher' like a Verona paired with a 'starter' grinder like a Mignon?
> 
> It is now obvious to me that I need to be sure that any demo/test includes the exact grinder-machine combo that I consider buying.


I have never been in the territory of such lovely machines, but yea basically above a certain point machines stop having a substantial difference in output compared to cost (this may not hold true once you get into the specialist machines, like the verona, speedster, L1 etc). Pairing an exceptional grinder with a

I am just regurgitating advice I have read, as I said I have never been in the territory, but its is commonly accepted advice from the guys here who know their stuff.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Swindonia......


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

As all the others have said on here, please please please don't skimp on the grinder. Claudette usually seems to persuade people in the direction of the more expensive machine leaving less in the pot for a grinder and so they sell an awful lot of the Eureka Mignons. If you are one of these people who must buy new then they are currently offering a special deal for forum members on the Eureka Zenith 65E which is an on demand grinder and from the things I have read about it be a lot better than the Mazzers with similar sized burrs i.e. the Super Jolly (although to be frank the price on an on demand Super Jolly is nothing short of ridiculous) and the Mini-E.

I think everyone has steered you well in the direction of lever machines in order to achieve your Holy Grail.


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Thank you again for all these replies; they are very helpful. I have noticed that the 'package' deals on BellaBarista do feature the cheaper grinders, just as you have warned above. I have reread all your replies a few times and I have certainly learnt two valuable lessons regarding the quality of grinder and the consideration of Lever machines. One additional question: you all have clearly made well researched choices of hardware, and I have noticed on this website various speciality beans: does anybody use what I would call the 'standard' Italian coffee beans e.g. Lazazza, Illy, Miscela d'Oro, Kimbo...? (Or is that the type of question that triggers an awkward silence on this site?!).


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Robert_ingl_ita said:


> Thank you again for all these replies; they are very helpful. I have noticed that the 'package' deals on BellaBarista do feature the cheaper grinders, just as you have warned above. I have reread all your replies a few times and I have certainly learnt two valuable lessons regarding the quality of grinder and the consideration of Lever machines. One additional question: you all have clearly made well researched choices of hardware, and I have noticed on this website various speciality beans: does anybody use what I would call the 'standard' Italian coffee beans e.g. Lazazza, Illy, Miscela d'Oro, Kimbo...? (Or is that the type of question that triggers an awkward silence on this site?!).


One thing you will quickly come to realise once you start down this road is that there is absolutely no substitute for FRESH coffee, that means roasted and then posted (or picked up if local) to you and opened a couple of weeks after the roast date.

Those big bean shippers roast in immense quantities and give years long sell by dates, the coffee is ruined by this stage.

Above everything, machine, grinder, water, comes fresh beans.

You will be able to find roasters who will do italian style fresh roasts, they will blow the big roasters out of the water when it comes to quality in the cup.


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

That's another thing I simply wasn't aware of; I had (naively?) presumed that modern packaging methods would have been adequate for maintaining freshness. I really do appreciate you all taking time out to respond. (The last time I learnt something interesting about coffee beans was on a 'gorilla trekking' holiday in Rwanda last year when the guide told me that the entire Rwandan coffee market is sold to Starbucks).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kimbo actually seems to have a reasonable reputation in the 'States, despite the long shelf life.

Re. Rwanda & Starbucks - this is an exaggeration, you can buy Rwandan coffees from a number of roasters.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Kimbo actually seems to have a reasonable reputation in the 'States, despite the long shelf life.
> 
> Re. Rwanda & Starbucks - this is an exaggeration, you can buy Rwandan coffees from a number of roasters.


So there's something new again for you


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

To be fair to him, his expertise was mountain gorillas... Regarding grinders, I presume the grind is adjusted for several factors, including the weather. So how many times do you find that you throw away the first coffee because you realise the grinder needs adjusting?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You don't, just serve it to someone who doesn't know any better


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Re learning curve, of the lever . I dose tamp , lock in here pf , pull the lever and wait for my drink ......
> 
> it's rock steady temp wise and I don't have to flush it or manager it , perhaps like you imagine a pump HX machine to work ....
> 
> ...


Sorry, I didn't answer your question earlier:

My only experience is a Moka pot and now a Blitz 510 Tecnosystem and Lavazza Modo Mio i.e. capsules only. Obviously they're not good enough.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

OK then visiting coffee chap would be highly recommended. And using some cash to get done training whatever machine you get , would be a very good idea....


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

On the front of Italian style fresh roast beans I won't be the only voice in the wilderness suggesting Rave's Italian Job, but I would also suggest checking out my local roasters Roberts & Co's selection of regional Italian style blends as well. Any of these should get you far better results than prepackaged, roast god knows how long ago stuff from the Supermarket. That said it's your coffee and your taste buds so if that sort of stuff floats your boat fair play to you.


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> OK then visiting coffee chap would be highly recommended. And using some cash to get done training whatever machine you get , would be a very good idea....


Thanks. Firstly I'm arranging a demo with 'Londinium' since they are not far from me in London and the reviews of their machine, plus the comments on this thread, all seem promising. It will also provide a good comparison with my BellaBarista visit.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You should pop into his place he is in Wimbledon and easy to find


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

(1) "Look at the whole picture".

Whilst investigating the intriguing subject of lever machines, I stumbled across a simple problem: all my kitchen work surfaces have cabinets over them to a certain extent, and the height of the lever (>=70 cm) is higher than the gap (54cm). I started wondering about having the lever in the down position to allow cabinet doors to open, but then it seems the natural resting position is vertical (?), plus that would also mean the lever is protruding into the general kitchen area, and I thought I'd be descending into kitchen layout wrongness if I tried to deny the basic geometry of my kitchen area.

However, it has also occurred to me that I should accept this as a prompt to redirect more of the budget into a high quality grinder. It's clear that it should not be "buy machine and find a grinder with money left over", but instead "buy the best possible machine-grinder combination in available budget, and do not compromise on the grinder".

e.g. for a 2k budget, a Londinium 1 or Quickmill Veloce + £250 grinder will not be as good as a 'middle' DB or HX machine for 1.2k - 1.4k + a quality £500/£60 grinder.

Would anybody disagree?

(2) "It's the grinder, stupid".

It seems to me that the main criteria is to ensure it's either stepless or has a sufficiently high number of stepped settings to allow maximum granularity flexibility. Doser or Doserless seems to be a matter of taste?

On this forum, the Eureka Mignon is not recommended. In general, a 'commercial' level quality is advised, and this means £400 / 500 upwards.

> £400:

On this forum, there are mixed feelings on the Mazzer Mini.

Mazzer SuperJolly?

Macap M4D?

Eureka Zenith Club E?

Baratza Vario?

Others?

I will naturally browse all the reviews on grinders, but I'm curious as to the judgment of those who recommended Levers, as to whether they think I could make up the lost ground with the right grinder (to pair with a DB or HX machine), and which one that would be. I appreciate that used grinders are an option, but it may also be worth paying for the comfort factor of a warranty.

Thanks once again.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Right I'll have ago at this since it seems to have been missed ......



Robert_ingl_ita said:


> (1) "Look at the whole picture".
> 
> Whilst investigating the intriguing subject of lever machines, I stumbled across a simple problem: all my kitchen work surfaces have cabinets over them to a certain extent, and the height of the lever (>=70 cm) is higher than the gap (54cm). I started wondering about having the lever in the down position to allow cabinet doors to open, but then it seems the natural resting position is vertical (?), plus that would also mean the lever is protruding into the general kitchen area, and I thought I'd be descending into kitchen layout wrongness if I tried to deny the basic geometry of my kitchen area.
> 
> ...


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Many thanks for those comments. Regarding the Lever - it's a space restriction in my kitchen, however I still plan to visit Londinium for a demo.

I have made an enquiry about 'reconditioned' grinders.

Regarding your final questions about whether I will change coffees a lot - how would this affect my choice of grinder?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I believe the lever itself is easily removeable on the Londinium, so can be stored away out of the way of cupboard doors when not in use.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Aren't londiniums made under the same roof as Fracino, therefore if the Fracino factory is nearer you could visit direct?


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

I'm arranging a visit to the Londinium factory in West London, yes. Hopefully this weekend.


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

D_Evans said:


> I believe the lever itself is easily removeable on the Londinium, so can be stored away out of the way of cupboard doors when not in use.


I don't know if that's practical a few times per day; however I should have a better idea once I visit their factory for a demo.


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## nickmorrisrdg (Mar 16, 2014)

Robert_ingl_ita said:


> Many thanks for those comments. Regarding the Lever - it's a space restriction in my kitchen, however I still plan to visit Londinium for a demo.
> 
> I have made an enquiry about 'reconditioned' grinders.
> 
> Regarding your final questions about whether I will change coffees a lot - how would this affect my choice of grinder?


If you are changing your coffees a lot, you may want a grinder with low retention. Some of the large conical grinders, like mine which is Compak K10 Fresh, are known for having quite a bit of retention. When you change your coffee, you need to "dial in" the right setting for that coffee which can be quite an iterative process. A grinder with a lot of retention potentially needs you to put through a double dose of coffee to get the effect of any grind setting change into your next shot. The implication of that is a lot of wasted coffee every time you switch coffees. anectdotally, if i buy a 250g bag of coffee, it might be nearly all gone before i have the right grind setting!


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## oop north (Jun 23, 2013)

I just had a quick look at the handle on my LI though I imagine you will have seen one yourself by now! Taking the handle off looks like it will save about 8 inches - though a bigger problem might be filling the water tank with a cupboard in the way!

I am using a Mazzer Super Jolly, bought as a recon from coffee chap a year or so ago. I am starting to consider a different grinder for purchase maybe next year - something with less retention. The SJ isn't too bad for retention (it has the lens hood mod) but not perfect - and the LI would show the benefit of something better. Having staid that, the SJ and LI are between them making very nice drinks for me. Used SJ's seem to be down around £250-£280 now, which is excellent value. I haven't regretted getting secondhand at all and reckon it would be worth saving for a while then getting the right team of equipment - the LI is my first espresso machine and I am hoping my last - my aim was to buy once and buy well - cheaper in the long run

To put it another way, although it might be a bit of a "waste" of an LI in the short term, if not wanting to spend more than £2k now, I would get the LI and make do with a lesser grinder ( a second hand one I could shift on for the same money in a few months - or cheap enough to keep for brewed coffee) and then get a better grinder in a few months. I actually did it the other way round - used the SJ with aeropress for a few months and then got the LI


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Thank you both; I shall certainly add "retention" to my list of criteria to consider. However, I am more likely to settle on a particular coffee once I am happy with the espresso quality; I'm not really curious to try out different varieties searching for elusive hazlenut or fruity flavours etc - the simple fact is, I'm just not that open-minded ("he was so narrow-minded he could look through a keyhole with both eyes at the same time").


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

I do look forward to trying the L1, however I've closely checked the dimensions against available space in my kitchen and it basically doesn't fit in any sensible manner (slightly overhanging onto the sink would not be sensible, for example). But, I'm expecting to have a demo today or tomorrow because it seems to be 'L for legendary' on this forum and so "I gots to know...".


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

just rip a cabinet out if you want a lever.


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

Or if you have a spare corner build a small unit


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

orrrrrr, you could just sack off the machine and use a Robur with your mokapot.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Soll said:


> Or if you have a spare corner build a small unit


Yep - that's what I did - got a 60cm freestanding cupboard which accommodates the LI perfectly.


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

SUMMARY

My final choice was the *QuickMill Verona* plus an *Eureka Zenith 65E grinder*[1].

I tested the Londinium L1 (at casa Reiss / Wimbledon), and yesterday spent two hours at Bella Barista with Claudette [2], where I tested the Quick Mill Verona (DB), ECM Barista (HX), and for good measure, the Vesuvius (DB) - which I'll exclude from my comparisons [3].

I found the Verona espresso to be the closest to my preferred taste, i.e. coffee bars in Italy. However, the HX was good as well [4] - I just found the Verona espresso better to my liking: strong, dark, and rich. The Londinium L1 was also excellent espresso; but a different style - I have had thoughts as to why I haven't been as overwhelmed by 'the lure of the Lever' as I'd expected [5].

Incidentally, the L1 I sampled was model no.1; including the glass panels on the side (that he later reverted to the standard metal panels) showing the innards.

At the start of this exercise (a few weeks ago), I expected to be going for a Rocket Evo v2. However, I wasn't able to test one (I simply would not buy something without testing first), and the Verona espresso was so good, combined with the positive reviews and feedback on this website, plus DaveC's endorsement (and his exceptional 'CloserLook' review), that it became the clear Chosen One.

Important note: the tests at Bella Barista were using coffee from an Eureka Mignon i.e. one of the 'cheaper' grinders [6], plus a bag of beans that Claudette referred to as 'cheap'. I liked this approach, since I could be confident that the results were not due to a top-of-the-range grinder that I would not be able to match at home.

My humble advice to anybody is simply test these machines for yourself; you'll have your own preferred taste after all. After reading some forums comments suggesting better grinders than the Mignon, I was impressed at how good the Verona espresso was using that very grinder - however I decided it best to 'round up' to the Zenith 65E, in the context of a 'package deal' price, plus not wanting to find myself looking for a new grinder in a couple of years.

Finally, thank you to all who have contributed suggestions and opinions.

DETAILS

[1] To be delivered early next week; I believe it is a new product and they've only had review/demo models to date.

[2] I'm sure this is oft' repeated, but Claudette is extremely helpful, and, most importantly to me, she makes the effort to understand what you (I / 'the customer') are looking for and tailoring the tests/demos accordingly. I also appreciated how they did a 'shakedown' test of the machine before I took it (the first one had a slight hiss that one of the guys wasn't happy with, so he swapped it for another).

[3] The Vesuvius is another dimension entirely (e.g. pressure profiling to configure that graph of tapering pressure during shot extraction), but it is £3k, so I shall only mention that its espresso was fabulous and, should you visit BellaBarista, I'd recommend a quick demo to experience what I consider the 'home espresso singularity'; the home coffee pinnacle. I also wondered; Lever proponents claim that the unique Lever flavour is due to the tapering-off of pressure/temperature towards the latter stages of shot extraction; if the Vesuvius can achieve the same as one of its profiles, plus offer other profiles as well - would that make it the new golden child?

[4] I had read a lot about 'flushing' HX machines when there is a significant time between shots. Claudette commented that she's seen many forums and youtube clips where people flush for far too long; she showed me yesterday and it really is pretty simple - just a quick draw of water to steady the temperature. i.e. if you are considering a HX machine, do not be put off by 'flushing' talk.

[5] Firstly, I accept there could be some subconscious bias against the Lever coffee simply because of the awkward, if not impossible, logistics of fitting one in my kitchen. But I think it's more than that.

Whilst I'm aware that many afficionados swear by Lever espresso, it's also the case that all my 'Holy Grail' espressos in Italy have been from regular 'pump' commercial machines (I have been to Naples once, but it's so long ago that I cannot remember the coffee particulars). Additionally, I've noticed that the highly rated and popular coffee bars in London are typically Australian (e.g. Monmouth, Taylor St Barista) and their espresso seems milder, even 'fruity', in comparison to my benchmark Holy Grail. So I wondered whether my contention that Italian bar espresso is the best around is simply not shared by many others without an Italian influence (gasp). The Italian espresso - be it from Milan, Sicily, Rome or any other part, tends to be strong, dark, maybe even a little bitter and smokey (though it does vary from region to region). I understand this to be partly due to using a mix of Arabica and Robusta, whereas many of the coffee suppliers and bars here proudly boast 100% Arabica. Perhaps my upbringing on Moka pot coffee, and yearly trips to Italy, has simply conditioned me to prefer an espresso taste that many others would actually judge to be too bitter/acidic/[pick your anti-Robusta-based-coffee-descriptive-of-choice]? I may be way off; I'm curious to hear others thoughts.

Ultimately, of course it doesn't really matter: the conclusion is simple - you should always try these things for yourself because only you can know what's your favourite.

[6] This would have been crazy talk one month ago to refer to that grinder as 'cheap'; this is the outcome of a few weeks browsing this type of website.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You certainly did your homework which is to be commended. Enjoy your new set up.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Congratulations on the new machine , Any of those machines would have made wonderful coffee I'm sure . And it's an excellent post and follow up btw... I wonder if the coffee that you were tasting at BB was more along the lines of what you prefer roast level....


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Thank you. That's certainly a valid point; the BB coffee may have been the darker roast to which I referred - so an absolute like-for-like comparison would have been with a Lever machine with the same beans; but the QM Veloce is currently out for inspection...


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## NeilR (Oct 1, 2013)

Great write up and thanks for sharing your 'journey'.


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## welshrarebit (Apr 17, 2014)

Glad you found your chosen machine, sure you will have many years of enjoyment.


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Two weeks down the line and I am extremely satisfied with my current optimal combination: QM Verona + Eureka Zenith 65E + 'Italian Blend' beans from BellaBarista. It is quite a straightforward process to get a consistent quality espresso (it takes about 5 secs 'pre-infusion' + 25 secs extraction); calibrating the grind is simple (it's basically an iterative approach), and I've learnt to ensure that both the portafilter and cup are warmed for best results. Initially I underestimated the importance of a consistent and 'heavy' tamping, but that's settled now.

For comparison, I also tried some other beans. 'Regular' supermarket Lavazza 'Qualita Rossa' were ok, but plainly not as rich and smooth as the BB 'ItalianBlend'. 'NudeEspresso East Espresso' wasn't to my liking at all; I found it almost fruity - that's not what I'm used to. So it seems I definitely need a little 'white trash' robusta in there.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Glad to hear your enjoying your new gear and the coffee it is making .

Perhaps start a new thread up with recommendations for beans from other roasters . You will get a few suggestions, I'm sure, based on your love of darker Italian style roasts and discovering new blends and beans can be as exciting as buying new equipment


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

I may do that, thanks.

I also must admit that it was an extremely satisfying moment when I finally had the grind+tamp process give the 'mouse's tail' brew and an optimal espresso; it was comparable to that feeling of a clean first serve or sweetly struck first time pass. It was my pole position espresso.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Are those tennis analogies?


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## Robert_ingl_ita (May 2, 2014)

Tennis, football, and F1 - activities as sacred as coffee-making...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I've never had a shot that felt as good as an ace or well executed pass. Congratulations - you must be chuffed


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