# Descaling frequency with water plumbed filter/softener



## Daren

I'm after a bit of advice please.

Living in Essex the water is so hard I have to chisel it out of the tap. As a consequence I Brita filter and frequently descale my machine. If I follow the instructions on the Seattle Coffee Gear site it takes me 8 hours to descale my Rocket. Frankly - Life is to short!!!!

I think I'm going to plumb in my machine and I am giving serious consideration to installing an Everpure ES06 cartridge ( http://www.omniwash.co.uk/warewashing/product/Everpure-ES06-Cartridge/902/32/).

I have 2 questions.... Firstly, if I install this how frequently should I descale afterwards?

Secondly, can anyone suggest a better product for a similar price that will reduce the frequencies of me having to descale? I want to make the right purchase first time.


----------



## Ran1

In my experience a lot of the filters and calcium treatment units on the market range from useless, to slowing down build up - but only if changed regularly and at much expense!

The only way I've heard of to put a stop to scale build up and the cheapest, is to fit a salt water softener and regenerate it regularly. There are however some grey areas over using these with drinking water as they are now mainly used for glass and dishwashers.

Good luck in your search!


----------



## GS11

Like Daren I am also in hard water area and am interested in a solution for limescale. The e06 looks interesting as seems to target speciality espresso production /limescale and reports to have 12 month life cycle between change.

I guess change time has a lot to do with the hardness of water being filtered.


----------



## Ran1

I think you'll find that most of the major players in the water filter industry have a filter specifically designed for espresso machines. All they're doing is adjusting the size of the bypass in the head of the filter, depending on the type of equipment it is being connected to. This allows the correct amount of hard water to mix with the filtered to meet the allowed standards.

As you said GS11, change time is due to the hardness of the water, but more importantly the amount of water going through the unit.

I think you may also find that the 12 months is the maximum time a filter should remain in situ due to bacteria build up.

I've come across many filters over the years and yet to find one that'll do what Daren requires - without throwing lots of money at it!


----------



## GS11

Thanks ran1. suppose the correct procedure is to periodically test the output of the filter for hardness with a kit. Darens issue regards not having to descale is compounded by the fact that some hardness in water is desirable from a taste quality perspective.


----------



## Daren

Thanks Ran. I appreciate I'm not going to get to a stage where I'm never going to have to descale. I'm looking for a good affordable solution to have a significant impact on the frequency at which I currently descale.

As GS11 suggests, perhaps I'm also going to have to buy something to measure my water hardness and regularly test the softeners effectiveness over time and replace the cartridge when this dictates.

My question - how frequent should I descale after fitting the above softener? (assuming I replace the cartridge as dictates). I understand this might be a subjective answer based upon how I configure the device, but would I be stupid to think once/twice a year or am I in fantasy land?

Any advice is appreciated as I don't have a clue?


----------



## Glenn

Daren, until you do so, try and use Volvic water. It significantly increases the time between descaling


----------



## El carajillo

Some time ago I did qoite a lot of"research?" into water filters as i intended to fit one for the whole house, except drinking water.I came across an extensive article about test done by the American Military at one of their engineering bases.The water at this and some other bases was exceedingly hard, they were tasked to find a suitable method to soften water.I cannot recall all the methods they set up but it was on avery large scale and very thorough mechanical and scientific test facility.

The outcome was that none of the methods woked very well,some not at all, some held matter in suspension for a short time and then it setteled out.

As has already been said the only sure way is the salt/resin exchange but this has its problems as softening the water makes it ascidic and does degrade copper pipe,

.It also puts salt in the water which is not good for drinking. (

I have a salt/resin water softener in the garage which i was going to install but after my "research" I decided not to. As already stated they now tend to be used for dishwashers andwashing M/chs. If you think about it when you fill your dishwasher with salt this is "the watersoftener" bit.

Without a running tally of water quality you do not know when to change filter cartridges,and your machine can be scaling up


----------



## Daren

Glenn said:


> Daren, until you do so, try and use Volvic water. It significantly increases the time between descaling


Thanks Glenn.

Would you say Volvic is a major improvement over Brita filtered?


----------



## glevum

Taste wise there is an improvement with Volvic over brita, but over the 2 months i used Volvic i found it a chore lugging back litres of water and spending more on water than coffee , especially with a HX machine.


----------



## glevum

Using Brita, i descale every 10 weeks. I notice a slight difference when descaled with steaming and heating up time.


----------



## glevum

must be a joy to plumb in.


----------



## Daren

glevum said:


> must be a joy to plumb in.


Yeah - I can't wait. It's a PITA filling the reservoir.


----------



## SimonB

glevum said:


> Taste wise there is an improvement with Volvic over brita, but over the 2 months i used Volvic i found it a chore lugging back litres of water and spending more on water than coffee , especially with a HX machine.


Hey it's good exercise! I am getting tired of the little plastic handles chopping off my fingers though.


----------



## Glenn

I have not descaled yet (no need to) and have had the machine since May, exclusively using Volvic

Taste wise there is an improvement to Brita


----------



## Daren

Glenn said:


> I have not descaled yet (no need to) and have had the machine since May, exclusively using Volvic
> 
> Taste wise there is an improvement to Brita


Is there an easy or obvious way to tell if/when you need to? (descale that is)


----------



## GS11

I'm now thinking my filtered water system will be dedicated to espresso machine use only

Will be aiming at volvics levels of hardness i.e calcium 8.5 /magnesium11.8

Proposed water filter will have manual hardness adjustment i.e. everpure claris or equivalent

http://www.omniwash.co.uk/warewashing/product/Claris-Complete-System-Medium/1016/32/

http://www.omniwash.co.uk/uploads/files/Claris_Filters.pdf

Testing kit will be required to periodically check output hardness levels.

In the meantime staying with bottled water until I pull the trigger


----------



## Daren

GS11.... I think I'm with you there. When do you reckon your going to go for it? If we time it right we could order together and save on a bit of postage.


----------



## Wando64

Daren, I assume that when you say "Brita" you means the jug with Maxtra filters.

If this is so, in my experience they are quite effective in reducing hardness only for the first week of usage. Effectiveness decreasing during the second week and thereafter it is completely useless. I came to this conclusion by observing the scale buildup in the kettle and, more recently, by checking with a TDS meter. Changing the maxtra filter every two weeks costs approx £60 for a year supply. As far as I can see this is less than the running cost of a larger, in-line filtering system, though still perhaps not as effective. Basically, what I do at the moment is testing the water every time I refill the Rancilio reservoir and if the TDS is above 190 I just put it through the jug again. This only happen towards the end of the second week of cartridge life. By the way, the TDS of my unfiltered tap water is 310 (+/-). I am aiming to descale every quarter as opposed to monthly as I do now.


----------



## xiuxiuejar

I have an ECTester - can thisd measure the hardness of my water? What is HC and what is HO? What should I be looking for? Thanks


----------



## GS11

Daren said:


> GS11.... I think I'm with you there. When do you reckon your going to go for it? If we time it right we could order together and save on a bit of postage.


Yep daren will keep in contact with you on this before ordering...am also looking at the brita purity professional range which seems a bit more "obtainable" over here than everpure.









http://www.brita.net/professional_details.html?L=0&p_id=375&cat=

The other fun bit will be hooking it all up. I'm guessing 3/8 pipework and john guest fittings?


----------



## Daren

GS11 said:


> The other fun bit will be hooking it all up. I'm guessing 3/8 pipework and john guest fittings?


I'm looking for the easiest solution to run a pipe from under my sink, under my kitchen cupboards behind the kick board and then back up behind by gas oven where it will eventually end up coming out the side of a kitchen unit cupboard.

The route it's not the easiest or most accessible. It's about 5 metre from the sink to machine.

I think some sort of flexible hose would be my easiest option. I'm not familiar with John Guest stuff. I assume they do something like this as I think rigid pipework would be quite difficult for me in my setup.


----------



## xiuxiuejar

I ask again in case it is not seen on the other page, can I measure hardness with an EC Tester?


----------



## GS11

Daren said:


> I'm looking for the easiest solution to run a pipe from under my sink, under my kitchen cupboards behind the kick board and then back up behind by gas oven where it will eventually end up coming out the side of a kitchen unit cupboard.
> 
> The route it's not the easiest or most accessible. It's about 5 metre from the sink to machine.
> 
> I think some sort of flexible hose would be my easiest option. I'm not familiar with John Guest stuff. I assume they do something like this as I think rigid pipework would be quite difficult for me in my setup.


John Guest is also known as speedfit. Wil be flexible enough to run under/ rear of your kitchen units and push fit connectors make joining pipes easy. I have pipe cutters and tools.

We are going to have fun drilling your granite worktops daren.......will bring kango breaker from work


----------



## GS11

xiuxiuejar said:


> I ask again in case it is not seen on the other page, can I measure hardness with an EC Tester?


Sorry xiuxiuejar don't know answer but would be interested in what type of meter required to test for hardness


----------



## Kyle548

GS11 said:


> Sorry xiuxiuejar don't know answer but would be interested in what type of meter required to test for hardness


Isn't it just a strip of PH tasting paper?


----------



## xiuxiuejar

There are TDS metres but I have an EC metre which measures conductivity in water. I think I will order a cheap TDS meter though which should cost less than 10 euros.


----------



## SimonB

xiuxiuejar said:


> There are TDS metres but I have an EC metre which measures conductivity in water. I think I will order a cheap TDS meter though which should cost less than 10 euros.


Aren't they all just EC meters? The one I bought turned out to be anyway...


----------



## El carajillo

Daren said:


> I'm looking for the easiest solution to run a pipe from under my sink, under my kitchen cupboards behind the kick board and then back up behind by gas oven where it will eventually end up coming out the side of a kitchen unit cupboard.
> 
> The route it's not the easiest or most accessible. It's about 5 metre from the sink to machine.
> 
> I think some sort of flexible hose would be my easiest option. I'm not familiar with John Guest stuff. I assume they do something like this as I think rigid pipework would be quite difficult for me in my setup.


You can buy 15mm plastic pipe in rigid lengths OR in flexible coils, the fittings can be tightened by hand.You will need a "T" to come off your water main (under sink) and a shut off valve (for servicing/isolating Cof /Mch and filter.You will also need a 15mm to 3/8 reducer at machine end.You can come off the filter with smaller bore pipe if you wish.

You MUST cut the pipe dead square and insert a ferrule into the pipe before you put the fittings on other wise the joints blow appart !!!!


----------



## xiuxiuejar

SimonB said:


> Aren't they all just EC meters? The one I bought turned out to be anyway...


Can you explain the measurements to me? I get a mS measurement which is not ppm.


----------



## Daren

El carajillo said:


> You can buy 15mm plastic pipe in rigid lengths OR in flexible coils, the fittings can be tightened by hand.You will need a "T" to come off your water main (under sink) and a shut off valve (for servicing/isolating Cof /Mch and filter.You will also need a 15mm to 3/8 reducer at machine end.You can come off the filter with smaller bore pipe if you wish.


Perfect! That's exactly the information I was after! Thanks El carajillo. The flexible coil is the way forward for me I think.

Any suggestions on how I can neatly come through my cupboard and finish with an external fitting to screw my braided flexible hose on to (the hose that goes to my Rocket)? The fitting must meet the wife's cosmetic approval!


----------



## El carajillo

Look on I/net at female wall elbow. This is what is used for external taps.you would need a 1/2" male to3/8 male or female depending on coffee M/ch hose.

If you need more info PM me for Tel No

You could clip the pipe to the unit /wall and come straight off the end.


----------



## El carajillo

One other thing to think about, cookers get HOT plastic pipe might not be suitable in close proximity, check around where you intend to run pipe !!!


----------



## SimonB

xiuxiuejar said:


> Can you explain the measurements to me? I get a mS measurement which is not ppm.


I don't know but a quick glance on Google gives me the following:

(TDS)ppm = Conductivity µS/cm x 0.64

The final multiplier I think is a conversion for different regions:

0.7 conversion, Australia

0.64 conversion, Europe

0.5 conversion, USA

Give that a try and see if the results make any sense, your local water company probably has a rough water hardness measurement for you to compare against.


----------



## El carajillo

EC is the capacity to transmit current. TDS is ions in solution TDS (mg/l =0.5xEC

The difficult arrises because the ratio is not consistent as TDS increases the EC varies up to 0.9.

This is why Simon B"s ratios vary in different areas Ie more TDS in water, presumably they take their local average

Hope this helps a little.


----------



## xiuxiuejar

Thanks to you both but unfortunately I'm useless at understanding any of this. I'll just buy one that measures ppm!!! What is an acceptable TDS in ppm? I am also using the Maxtra filters which seem to work fairly well - we only use them for tea and coffee and the Expobar has another filter inside but the typical bottled water here is not very good for the machine's health!


----------



## SimonB

xiuxiuejar said:


> Thanks to you both but unfortunately I'm useless at understanding any of this. I'll just buy one that measures ppm!!! What is an acceptable TDS in ppm? I am also using the Maxtra filters which seem to work fairly well - we only use them for tea and coffee and the Expobar has another filter inside but the typical bottled water here is not very good for the machine's health!


There's some pretty in depth articles on this subject but all that happens if you use hard water is you need to descale more frequently.

You could try and go as soft as possible and if you're happy with the taste then you'll rarely have to descale. The water I'm using (Volic with some Brita jug water) comes out about 150 PPM so I'm guessing a descale every 3 months is fine.

I do wonder if the TDS measurement can be a little misleading as isn't it only certain minerals we need to be concerned about for the equipment's health and if that's the case potentially you could have slightly harder water that's better than slightly softer depending on its contents (within reason)?


----------



## Ran1

Daren - For your current set up i.e. tank fed - a water softener is available which fits onto the inlet tube for about £10. It's the same filter which is found on S24. Once a week or so you will need to pour salt water through it and flush it with fresh water but it works very well.

Test strips are available from places like RS which come with a small chart to check water hardness. The end of the strip changes colour depending on hardness.

Regarding plumbing your machine in, I think the safest thing is for you to run 15mm copper behind your cooker area. Taps are available which go from 15mm copper to 3/8" male which could be fitted at the end of the pipe run. Braded s/steel hoses are also available in different lengths to go from the tap to your machine inlet which I'm assuming is also 3/8"?? These may also be handy when you put a break in the pipework to run the filter inline.

I'm not familiar with the Rocket machine. What sort of pump does it have to allow it to go from tank fed to plumbed in??


----------



## GS11

What is considered desirable levels for both hardness and for tds?

(Random figures I came across while browsing: Total Hardness of 68 mg/L and Total Dissolved Solids of 150 mg/L)


----------



## GS11

Picked up a cheap tds meter off fleabay and was surprised for £6ish delivered how well the unit performed.

View attachment 4328


0-1 ppm in halfords distilled water found in garage (should read 0)

131 ppm local bottled water used in machine (typical claimed 157)

255 ppm buxton spring - peak district! (typical claim 280 dry residue)

373 ppm tap water (expected as i'm in a very hard water area)

I'm going to get a small bottle of volvic and see how this compares to the above. I also want to take a reading from group head once I have re-generated the inline expobar reservoir filter with salt.

Appreciate tds does not give specific combined hardness level for calcium/magnesium which I am particularly interested in reducing to a desirable level, but gives a good general comparison between different types of water for my needs.

Also gears me up for a potential move to a filtered tap water solution


----------



## Daren

GS11 - can I pop a sample of my Brita filtered round just for interest?

I've also got a Rocket filter in my reservoir so I'd be interested to see how it comes out of my grouphead.


----------



## GS11

Daren said:


> GS11 - can I pop a sample of my Brita filtered round just for interest?
> 
> I've also got a Rocket filter in my reservoir so I'd be interested to see how it comes out of my grouphead.


It's a bit late tonight daren, how about tomorrow?


----------



## Daren

Sorry mate... I should have said when (but not tonight).

I'll PM you.


----------



## Olliehulla

Wando64 said:


> Daren, I assume that when you say "Brita" you means the jug with Maxtra filters.
> 
> If this is so, in my experience they are quite effective in reducing hardness only for the first week of usage. Effectiveness decreasing during the second week and thereafter it is completely useless. I came to this conclusion by observing the scale buildup in the kettle and, more recently, by checking with a TDS meter. Changing the maxtra filter every two weeks costs approx £60 for a year supply. As far as I can see this is less than the running cost of a larger, in-line filtering system, though still perhaps not as effective. Basically, what I do at the moment is testing the water every time I refill the Rancilio reservoir and if the TDS is above 190 I just put it through the jug again. This only happen towards the end of the second week of cartridge life. By the way, the TDS of my unfiltered tap water is 310 (+/-). I am aiming to descale every quarter as opposed to monthly as I do now.


I too use the Brita Maxtra filters and generally keep an eye on the kettle for any signs of scaling (and I do mean the minutest amount) as my signal for a new filter. I get around 4 weeks from a filter but that is only from evening and weekend usage as both me and SWMBO work during the day so usage is lighter. I descale my Silvia every 6-8 weeks and have suffered no ill effects that I can detect.


----------



## Daren

I had a shocking eye opener the other day&#8230; I popped over to see GS11 to play with his water hardness testing device. I brought some water samples from home and got these horrible results;

Water from my tap - 332ppm

Water from my tap Maxtra Brita* filtered - 273ppm

Water from my machines brew head that is Maxtra Brita filtered PLUS Rocket softener/filtered tank sachet - 321ppm

What's going on!!

*The Brita Maxtra cartridge was new from the day before.

I went straight from GS11s and stocked up on Volvic. My machine is now Volvic fed until I plumb in my feed with filter cartridge.

Thanks Graham for the use of your tester.


----------



## Milanski

In an earlier post Glenn says he doesn't need to descale cos he uses Volvic.

Can we safely assume we never need to descale if we only exclusively use Volvic?


----------



## Daren

Glenn said:


> Daren, until you do so, try and use Volvic water. It significantly increases the time between descaling





Glenn said:


> I have not descaled yet (no need to) and have had the machine since May, exclusively using Volvic
> 
> Taste wise there is an improvement to Brita





Milanski said:


> In an earlier post Glenn says he doesn't need to descale cos he uses Volvic.
> 
> Can we safely assume we never need to descale if we only exclusively use Volvic?


I think you'll still need to descale using Brita - but just less frequently.... Hence Glenn's use of the word "yet".

What is certain is its going to be a MASSIVE improvement on my tap water!


----------



## Milanski

Gotcha. So what kind of frequency would we be looking at with Volvic would you say?

May to November is 6 months, so a year??


----------



## SimonB

Daren said:


> I had a shocking eye opener the other day&#8230; I popped over to see GS11 to play with his water hardness testing device. I brought some water samples from home and got these horrible results;
> 
> Water from my tap - 332ppm
> 
> Water from my tap Maxtra Brita* filtered - 273ppm
> 
> Water from my machines brew head that is Maxtra Brita filtered PLUS Rocket softener/filtered tank sachet - 321ppm
> 
> What's going on!!


Just ran a test for you:

Volvic 90

Tap water 280

Tap water in Brita jug 193

Tank 128

Group head 147

Group head at temp 250

These numbers might not be quite correct as the TDS meter changes depending on the temperature of the water but I tried to get them down to room temperature with the exception of the water from the group head with the machine heated up.

It seems unlikely that the Rocket softener is increasing the hardness (as far as I understand it, it's the same as the Brita filter) so I'd guess either you had a dirty group head or there's something else inside your machine causing that increase. Double check your numbers if you can and if they remain that high perhaps it's time for a descale?


----------



## GS11

SimonB said:


> Just ran a test for you:
> 
> Volvic 90
> 
> Tap water 280
> 
> Tap water in Brita jug 193
> 
> Tank 128
> 
> Group head 147
> 
> Group head at temp 250
> 
> These numbers might not be quite correct as the TDS meter changes depending on the temperature of the water but I tried to get them down to room temperature with the exception of the water from the group head with the machine heated up.
> 
> It seems unlikely that the Rocket softener is increasing the hardness (as far as I understand it, it's the same as the Brita filter) so I'd guess either you had a dirty group head or there's something else inside your machine causing that increase. Double check your numbers if you can and if they remain that high perhaps it's time for a descale?


Cheers simonb for posting your results.

I was interested in running a tds test on volvic in comparison to the other waters tested, and 90 tds is a very good result.

Volvic's tds also gives a good benchmark to aim for if using a filtered tap water system, particularly with adjustable manual bypass, i.e. some of the purity / claris systems

Agree group head results are likely to include additional solids


----------



## Wando64

Daren said:


> Water from my tap - 332ppm
> 
> Water from my tap Maxtra Brita* filtered - 273ppm
> 
> *The Brita Maxtra cartridge was new from the day before.


Strangely I have found that the Brita filtered water gets better after a couple of days usage.

My starting point is 310 (ish) and my Brita filtered water is 170 at its best, so there is something odd with your 273ppm for filtered water.

As someone else has said, temperature plays a significant role.


----------



## Daren

Wando64 said:


> Strangely I have found that the Brita filtered water gets better after a couple of days usage.
> 
> My starting point is 310 (ish) and my Brita filtered water is 170 at its best, so there is something odd with your 273ppm for filtered water.
> 
> As someone else has said, temperature plays a significant role.


Cheers Wando. I hadn't considered maybe the cartridge takes a little time to get up to maximum efficiency. It only had 2 jug fulls of water though it when I did the test. I'll try and test it again in a week to see how it changes.

All 3 of my samples were taken at the same temperature - I used water from the tap, from the jug and from a cold machine and left them all for 8 hours at room temperature before the test.

Either way - my confidence in Brita Maxtra cartridges has completely gone so I'm gonna stick with Volvic until I've plumbed in my machine.


----------



## Fevmeister

mine is 150 out of the tap


----------



## forzajuve

Fevmeister said:


> mine is 150 out of the tap


Pfff 60ppm out the tap in rainy Manc!


----------



## coffeechap

But do you put it I'd the rocket?


----------



## forzajuve

Straight into the Rocket (tanked for now). I am using the Rocket in tank filter to help take out any calcium within that 60ppm. I think this should mean de-scaling is an annual event, but will keep an eye on the mushroom.

When I move to a place I can plumb it in I will look at sorting an in line filtering system. Should be cheap though at the hardness we get ooop north, you see everything is cheaper and you get gravy on your chips!


----------



## Daren

forzajuve said:


> but will keep an eye on the mushroom.


How do I check the mushroom?


----------



## coffeechap

Daren said:


> How do I check the mushroom?


Now there is a question that deserves a double entendre


----------



## forzajuve

Daren said:


> How do I check the mushroom?


Check this guide out:

Mushroom


----------

