# Do you need to know what espresso taste likes to make it?



## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Undoubtedly this has been discussed somewhere before in the rich history of the Forum but&#8230;I've been up near Chester for a few days seeing my Mum and while waiting for the optician to do his thing with her eyes I popped into a newly opened coffee shop for an espresso. It looked promising from the outside and there was a very pleasant, friendly, young woman at the counter. I asked what the coffee is, Limini, she said, and then she competently made me an espresso, which probably tasted like a Limimi blend might. Quite spontaneously she said that for the first time in her life she had tried an espresso that morning and hadn't liked it all. We talked some more, I wished her and the business well (I do) but then I was wondering, if you have never drunk espresso and after one taste decide you don't like it, how do you really know that what you are producing is up to it (apart from customer feedback)?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Even if you do know what it should taste like, you can't taste every shot. If their training is good & then some level of consistency should be possible. If you're making coffee for customers then their feedback is what counts.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

At some level I supposed having a good idea about what a decent espresso should taste like must help - even to respond to customer feedback. In the case of where I was, presumably consistency would be judged by things like weight of shot time, duration of shot, volume produced but then you can't judge consistency of taste apart from a coffee that includes milk, which is presumably how the majority of customers want it.


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## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

Phil104 said:


> .............. I asked what the coffee is, Limini, she said, ..................


my local deli uses Limini beans and i bought some - ground [before i had a grinder]

not bad, so out of interest i contacted them - here is their reply

''...All our beans are the highest quality Arabica - we never use Robusta!

This particular espresso blend is a combination of three single origin beans - Ethiopia, India and Indonesia - roasted to a very specific roasting profile to give it lovely dark chocolate notes with a good level of natural sweetness.....''


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

yardbent said:


> my local deli uses Limini beans and i bought some - ground [before i had a grinder]
> 
> not bad, so out of interest i contacted them - here is their reply
> 
> ...


Thanks John, that sounds about right - a bit too dark for my taste although I didn't pick up any sweetness, which could be down to how it's coming out of the machine.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

In answer to the question yes. How else can you gauge what you're selling.


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## d_lash (Aug 30, 2014)

You're never going to make great coffee like that, but conceivably it could be better than 95% of what is sold as espresso, just by using good fresh beans and hitting a reasonable time & brew ratio. (I live in a coffee desert - can you tell?). Can't see where the motivation would come from though.


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## IanP (Aug 4, 2011)

The darkness is also due to the Monsooned Malabar that is the Indian bean in the blend.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Yes. The Barista or Head Barista should be tasting the espresso at several points throughout the day, to see if the grind needs tweaking.

Realistically on the specialty shops will be doing that though, not the run of the mill shops.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Depends on what you mean to make it.

To dial it it? Yeah. To grind, tamp, and push the relevant button on a volumetric machine? No.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

d_lash said:


> Can't see where the motivation would come from though.


If it's your job, getting paid?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

MWJB said:


> If it's your job, getting paid?


Ain't that the truth!

It might not be the only motivation - but its up there.


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## mrsimba (Mar 17, 2014)

Absolutely yes! most on here are used to decent espresso & thats why when we go to a 'chain' complain its rubbish!

Only when you are used to whats 'right' do you know whats 'wrong' and if you don't know what either tastes like you've got no chance at all!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You cant dial in with out either a) knowing what it should taste like or b) a VST refractometer

* I've done b) when afflicted with manflu a few times


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> You cant dial in with out either a) knowing what it should taste like or b) a VST refractometer
> 
> * I've done b) when afflicted with manflu a few times


For the uninitiated, how does the VST allow you to dial in?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Yeah, how does ey tell you what it's supposed to taste like?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

EY can't really tell you what individual flavour notes you will get, these may subtly change from one cup to the next within a reasonable range of good cups. But if you know that your typical method produces good cups within a range of +/-1%EY, then aim for that.

Tasting each cup will tell you what they taste like, but you can't do that either. So what's the advantage of taste if you're not tasting it all?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It doesn't tell you what its supposed to taste like (you'll know that already from cupping it) but it tells you how soluble the coffee is at your normal brewing recipe and if it needs to be adjusted to be in the tasty zone.

Id rather serve someone a drink which when dialled in was a 20%EY than eye ball it and hope for the best


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> It doesn't tell you what its supposed to taste like (you'll know that already from cupping it) but it tells you how soluble the coffee is at your normal brewing recipe and if it needs to be adjusted to be in the tasty zone.
> 
> Id rather serve someone a drink which when dialled in was a 20%EY than eye ball it and hope for the best


Depends on the grinder and coffee used though . Had some 20 % shots that made mm mouth sad .....had some 16% shots that id happily drink ( drinking one as we speak )


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The specific number in % is less important than it being an area of high preference typically, for that method/grinder.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Depends on the grinder and coffee used though . Had some 20 % shots that made mm mouth sad .....had some 16% shots that id happily drink ( drinking one as we speak )


Of course, I'm talking about already knowing the set-up - water, grinder, machine and subsequent tasty zones.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

OK so you're taking about dialling in a coffee which you have tasted before (and refracted) to know "this tastes great at 20% EY" for example? The refrac in this case is almost like a quality control to ensure that your recipe is yielding the same result?

This does however rely on you having, at some point, tasted the coffee and worked out the best recipe?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

risky said:


> This does however rely on you having, at some point, tasted the coffee and worked out the best recipe?


Or, at least, someone tasting it & giving it the OK, maybe customers?

Let's say you (or someone) decide the recipe, you then start pulling shots with the aim of reasonably repeating the good shots, you are going to do this through brew ratio, shot weight, time - not by tasting them all. This is what recipes are, a means to repeat a process & get a reasonably consistent result, time after time, without having to taste every example. I don't expect every custard tart I buy to have a bite taken out of it as part of QC control .

Would I prefer someone tasting & adjusting to ensure optimum results? Sure, but if the shot was good without that, why would I have any concerns? What if the individual tasting had significantly different preferences to me, or to the majority of customers? Would that ensure a better result?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

risky said:


> OK so you're taking about dialling in a coffee which you have tasted before (and refracted) to know "this tastes great at 20% EY" for example? The refrac in this case is almost like a quality control to ensure that your recipe is yielding the same result?
> 
> This does however rely on you having, at some point, tasted the coffee and worked out the best recipe?


More about needing to serve somebody a drink and having a stinking cold so best endeavours just getting it to a sensible extraction yield , rather than hitting an exact number . At our set-up at the roastery , if espresso is 19-20%EY on the Mythos/BE it will be tasty enough . The alternative is to either eye ball it or only measure input/output and hope for the best .


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

@MWJB I don't disagree with any of that. I was just looking for clarification as to how the refrac would allow you to dial in without tasting, which Gary has now explained.

You've raised an interesting point:



MWJB said:


> What if the individual tasting had significantly different preferences to me, or to the majority of customers?


I suppose in these instances, in a speciality shop I would trust (rightly or wrongly) that the Barista was more experienced than me and therefore knew best. Which is dangerous I guess as I could write off a coffee as not to my tastes, just because of someone else's perception of how it should taste.


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## Condyk (Jan 9, 2011)

Phil104 said:


> ... I was wondering, if you have never drunk espresso and after one taste decide you don't like it, how do you really know that what you are producing is up to it (apart from customer feedback)?





jeebsy said:


> Depends on what you mean to make it.
> 
> To dial it it? Yeah. To grind, tamp, and push the relevant button on a volumetric machine? No.


I used Limini for nearly three years and it's a great service company roasting some very good beans indeed. Anyone using a house blend day in day out gets to know the taste profile of their beans. If you take care of the essentials, like cleaning, dose, etc then consistency can be high across shots, but depends on temperature, humidity, roaster consistency, and so on. All things being equal, if the machine is set up right, then you can just 'push the button' and get good results. But someone has to taste and adjust as needed somewhere along the line. There are proxies for taste like look of the shot and time, but ultimately, someone needs to taste test ... and at least daily.

As Gary may remember, having done it at my old place, we discovered a water temperature drop was needed to maximise the bean's potential, despite it being consistently to my taste  But even then ... the La Spaziale S5 machine I used just couldn't steam milk properly when we reduced the temperature, so we upped it a little again. Such are the compromise choices of running a business sometimes! So ultimately, the answer to your question would be you don't have to taste, but someone needs to.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

risky said:


> You've raised an interesting point:
> 
> I suppose in these instances, in a speciality shop I would trust (rightly or wrongly) that the Barista was more experienced than me and therefore knew best. Which is dangerous I guess as I could write off a coffee as not to my tastes, just because of someone else's perception of how it should taste.


In my experience, generally, in a speciality shop, if invited (or sometimes spontaneously in conversation) a Barista will qualify their experience of the espresso as their perception of it made under their conditions and that I might not agree. I'm still struggling to see how someone that doesn't drink or like espresso can make a judgement without a more experienced hand, and not necessarily relying on customer feedback. I was thinking about this on and off today and the other thing that occurred to me was that the young woman in the shop might simply have not liked the espresso that she produced (not knowing any better) but she might well have been encouraged by drinking an espresso that made her think that there might be something in it. On the other hand if all she ever drinks are milk based coffees and that's mainly what her customers want, and she is pleased with what she is drinking and they are, then for the sake of the business - it works.


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