# Bianca issue - boiling water + inconsistent water flow from group head



## Andy93 (Jun 6, 2021)

Hi everyone,

I recently purchased a Bianca from Bella Barista around 7 weeks ago now, and in the last week I have ran into some issues that I'm quite unsure how to solve.

The first problem I ran into was mid-shot - the water ran out, which came as a surprise as usually the machine displays an error when the water is running low. After that point the machine began to act very different - very loud vibrations through the pipes / entire machine, with water boiling at the group head. The machine was not pulling consistently, and from the sound alone I knew something was off. I spoke to customer service at Bella Barista who suggested it could be an *air lock* - the solution was to remove / re-attach the water tank repeatedly with the lever open on the machine, to try and remove said air lock.

This seemed to fix things to some extent - the strange loud vibrations the machine was giving off had stopped which is good, however I now have problems with boiling water + water flow consistency itself. Plus - I no longer seem to get the "low water" warning and I have to check the tank myself.

This video shows what my first pull of the day looks like - this includes 4 seconds of pre-infusion time, looks quite consistent, but looks to start boiling.

This video shows how things look on any subsequent shots in quick succession - boiling with a non-distributed stream.

Some additional context:



Brew temp is set at 93 on the machine itself

I have attempted to pull water from the machine and measure the temperature of this water using a milk thermometer as that's the only other item I have to measure temperature - however, it did not yield a reading of anything above around 80-83 - not sure if this is because of the tool being used, or if it's something to do with the machine



Machine is automatically turned on at least 45mins before I wake up via smart plug - I'm aware there's a period of time once the machine is first heated up where things will be warmer than what is displayed on the LCC due to the way the machine heats up the group head - however, I aim to use the machine 20-30mins after the initial 30min heat up window


Machine goes into standby after 30mins - I experience these problems both in the morning after the machine has first been heated up for the day, as well as in the afternoon after waking up from standby


I have removed and cleaned the shower screen three times since purchasing


I have removed the water tank and cleaned the filter & reattached everything to try and encourage the water sensor to work, to no avail


I have not altered anything on the machine such as pressure, nor have I opened it up, as that's outside my comfort zone


These are my advanced settings on the machine:



KPc 0.4


KIc 0.04


KDc 12.0


Bc 15


KPs 20.0


KIs 0.00


KDs 20.0


Bs 0


Ec 10 (brew temp offset)


Es 0


TR 0 (on my machine displays the actual brew temp and not the target)


ToT .


*What is going on here?* I'm at a bit of a loss with regards to why the water is boiling, why the flow looks to be so inconsistent, and why the water tank doesn't seem to measure the volume.

Any help would be greatly appreciated - with the machine being so new and under warranty I have no doubt Bella Barista would be able to help me out here, but before I kick that process off I'm wondering if there's something much more obviously wrong here that I can fix myself.

Thank you!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Andy93 said:


> TR 0 (on my machine displays the actual brew temp and not the target)


 This should be set to 1 I believe. I bet your machine is still in the initial heat up phase, which overshoots the temperature of the brew boiler to 130C. Snd that's why you are seeing boiling water. Set it to 1, pull a shot when the machine is ready to brew (I.e.: wait 35 minutes from initial warm up and let us know).

edit: just watched your videos. I can't see anything wrong? @Mrboots2u has a Bianca do he might be able to help you out.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

The water flow in the first video doesn't look unusual to me. In the second video there's maybe a little air. The temp readings you get using a milk thermometer or any other temp measurement device used in a cup/jug that catches water from the group) will read around 80c because the water cools quickly outside of the group. I'd expect your pid temp of 93c to be accurate if water in a jug reads 80-83c.

If the sensor isn't working and you can hear water boiling from the group and see steam that isn't captured on video then send it back to bb as it's not working as it should. Actually if the only thing wrong is low level detection I'd still send it back.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> This should be set to 1 I believe. I bet your machine is still in the initial heat up phase, which overshoots the temperature of the brew boiler to 130C. Snd that's why you are seeing boiling water. Set it to 1, pull a shot when the machine is ready to brew (I.e.: wait 35 minutes from initial warm up and let us know).
> 
> edit: just watched your videos. I can't see anything wrong? @Mrboots2u has a Bianca do he might be able to help you out.


 , I'd take shower screen out and clean , doesn't look like it boiling to me

ive never moved the settings other than temp and steam so I'd don't know about 1 or 0


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## Luca06 (Feb 13, 2021)

Hi Andy,

As @MediumRoastSteam says, the boiling also occurs with mine immediately after heatup or after eco-mode. It basically overheats to get on temperature faster. If you wait 10-15 min. It should be fine?

The stream seams normal to me. I also worried about this and did some Searching on the forums. Apparently it sometimes occurs when no portafilter is locked in and no pressure in the basket is building. Without portafilter it sometimes isn't ideally trickling evenly.


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## Andy93 (Jun 6, 2021)

Thanks for the replies, everyone!

@MediumRoastSteam - I actually took these settings from @DavecUK and assumed that 0 would display the actual brew temp - is this not the case?

@Rob1 - appreciate the input, too - sounds like perhaps I'm worrying a little too much about the machine too much. There isn't really any steam from the group, nor does it sound like water is boiling either - I'm assuming that sound would be more like the sound the hot water tap makes.

@Mrboots2u - cleaned the shower screen thoroughly last night also, need to re-inspect everything today.

@Luca06 - this is interesting regarding the portafilter not being in there - makes sense! I need to play around with the LCC to try and get the actual brew temp displaying rather than the target so that I avoid pulling shots during that 'overheat' period.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Andy93 said:


> @MediumRoastSteam - I actually took these settings from @DavecUK and assumed that 0 would display the actual brew temp - is this not the case?


 If it's the same as the Elizabeth, TR = 1 shows the actual temperature. TR = 0, shows the target temperature. This is according to Dave's documentation. I don't believe the Bianca settings is in the public domain, but, saying that, I never looked. 🙂

Both machines use the Lelit Control Centre.

https://sway.office.com/S5J4d9Jp4Y9LdVFx


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## Andy93 (Jun 6, 2021)

Thanks @MediumRoastSteam - you're exactly right, I changed the setting and sure enough I can now see the actual vs. target, and it seems to shoot to 122 for a while and hovers at around 95-97 (target 93) for about 10min after it's apparently ready to go.

I'm wondering if the air in the water is correlated to the recent change in weather - until a couple of days ago my target temp was 95, and with the hotter weather we've had recently, I'm wondering if this was sitting higher than 95 for longer than usual.

Regarding the settings that I pasted - I pulled those directly from a message that Dave posted in a different Bianca thread on here, so I'm assuming those settings are correct and the TR = 0 was a mistype.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Andy93 Might have been a mistype....so long ago. I have a pre-production, but I have not used it since initial testing. I would have to re-read my own manual 🤣


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## Andy93 (Jun 6, 2021)

All good - thank you @DavecUK! Are the Bianca recommended settings in the handbook you put together that ships from Bella Barista? I need to dig that out and double check I have everything correct


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Andy93 said:


> All good - thank you @DavecUK! Are the Bianca recommended settings in the handbook you put together that ships from Bella Barista? I need to dig that out and double check I have everything correct


 No because I didn't know when they were going to be changed....The recommended settings were the factory ones, but with one parameter changed. I found this which might help, but again I don't know if the software has changed.









The only thing is the BS value. I think 0 disables it...but check, things may have changed. It's might just allow it to work with a maximum band. If has, *then use a value of 1*. The parameter sets a value (which may not be C) over which the PID works as a PID, temperature deviations above and below that value "band" cause the heating element to be fully on or fully off.

You want the smallest band possible, so it works like and on-off switch and steaming isn't restricted by the proportional value (setting KPS makes no difference, because it's only a modifier to an inherent firmware value.

TR = 1 if you want the real temp displayed all the time.


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## Andy93 (Jun 6, 2021)

@DavecUK / @Mrboots2u / @MediumRoastSteam / @Luca06 / @Rob1 - now I have another issue that I thought had disappeared - very strange pump sound when pulling shots...

What on earth is this? When the machine first started making this sound a couple of weeks ago, I rang BB and they said "sounds like an airlock, very rare, try pulling water through and repeatedly remove/reattach the water tank". That never seemed to work and the issue magically disappeared after about a week - but it's back, and I don't fancy trying this solution again as it made some real awful sounds when I did this before.

I've tried backflushing just now to see if that helps - no joy. Also let water run through for 45+ seconds - eventually the pump starts sounding "normal", but the sound immediately returns once I stop / restart pulling water.

*Note* - before I pulled my first shot this morning after letting the machine heat up, I checked the tank - *completely empty *- the water sensor had not pinged. Before I filled it up with water - I removed / reattached the tank itself, and the error message was now showing. I then proceeded to fill the tank, and make a coffee - accompanied by this sound. I'm planning to ring BB on Monday and figure out if this is more serious than I think it is right now - too much money spent here to be having issues like this 8 weeks in. I just hope they have a good process for either sending an engineer round, or at least coming to get the machine from me if they need to repair / replace it.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Andy93 - looks like you have some sort of bloom ore-infusion setup? Around 7s the pump stops briefly and carries on. Try disabling that while performing diagnostics at least. You want the machine to operate in its most simplistic way, so it's easier to rule out/re-introduce things later.


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## Andy93 (Jun 6, 2021)

@MediumRoastSteam you are correct - common sense, thanks for pointing that out! I repeated my steps - pulling water, backflushing, etc. - touch wood it seems to have cleared up again and the sound is gone

Nevertheless.. what could be causing this? Is it worth investigating further, or are these sorts of problems common in these types of intricate machines?

Side note / question - since changing the settings on the LCC I've been able to see the actual brew temperature which has been great for the warmup etc. I've developed a habit of obsessively looking at the temp itself - set at 93, it very much likes to fluctuate between 92 and 95, peaking at 97 when pulling shots. Is this also normal? I assume it is - but thought I'd check!


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## Luca06 (Feb 13, 2021)

@Andy93 - although the mobile mic might distort the sound a bit, this indeed does not sound right. It sounds a bit metallic, like there is sand in the pump. I know, it's not that. Defenitely mine does sounds smoother.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Andy93 said:


> @MediumRoastSteam you are correct - common sense, thanks for pointing that out! I repeated my steps - pulling water, backflushing, etc. - touch wood it seems to have cleared up again and the sound is gone
> 
> Nevertheless.. what could be causing this? Is it worth investigating further, or are these sorts of problems common in these types of intricate machines?
> 
> Side note / question - since changing the settings on the LCC I've been able to see the actual brew temperature which has been great for the warmup etc. I've developed a habit of obsessively looking at the temp itself - set at 93, it very much likes to fluctuate between 92 and 95, peaking at 97 when pulling shots. Is this also normal? I assume it is - but thought I'd check!


 Normal! It's a PID algorithm, so it will try to stabilise near the setpoint as much as it can. Imagine a sine curve net gets thinner and thinner. There are articles and articles written by mathematicians and engineers on how to figure out the best parameters. Me, I just key in what Dave tells us, but there's no harm in experimenting, I do.

as for the noise, be aware pumps are noisier when not under pressure at the group. I take it's much quieter when you backflush?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Andy93 *This is my best guess*...any time on an E61 group the lever is up, there is an open path to the brew boiler. Depending on how they are handling the pump run, stop run you will most likely get a void in the brew boiler. It then depends on how this void bleeds out....if it goes back down the pump path and can pass the one way valve, you might get minor cavitation. Or it might just be enough that the pump races slightly as it tries to fill the void. hard to tell. The service boiler path is under less pressure, but still under some back pressure and the solenoid hole is small to fill that, hence no noise. the brew path is more open and under almosty no pressure...so the pump "pushes against nothing".

It's not going to hurt anything and is a function of start, stop start. The only way to do it without this, would be to close the route from the group to the coffee during the pump stop....that's difficult to do. The prototype Bianca I bought many years ago, doesn't have this function, although I have the control box and wiring to update it...but never bothered.

You have a few choices, just accept that it is how technically it has to be...or don't use the function on the LCC, use the paddle to do the same thing by closing it. Then the pump keeps running and no void in the brew boiler.

I have a number of projects on at the moment, with quite a few prototypes on the bench (grinders/machines), one of them is next years Bianca....so I will give it some thought. Technically though, overcoming it, might give far more problems, just to solve a very minor noise issue.


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## Andy93 (Jun 6, 2021)

@Luca06 sorry about that... it's worst at the very beginning of the video then it levels out a bit - its that first second as soon as I pull the lever where I get the irregular sound

@MediumRoastSteam thank for the explanation - very helpful for me! When backflushing it was quieter but it was still making a loud, irregular juddering / clanging sound when first pulling the lever - although it's now gone...? I feel like this happens when the water tank runs empty, I don't realise due to not being notified, and I heat the machine up - there's no water in there so something seems to go wrong

@DavecUK thank you, too, for a very detailed explanation, a good way for me to rationalise - short term "pain" (i.e. the sound) but long term it's all good, and perhaps I just need to deal with it? Interesting that you have next years Bianca on your bench - am I going to regret buying my own Bianca?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Andy93 said:


> thank you, too, for a very detailed explanation, a good way for me to rationalise - short term "pain" (i.e. the sound) but long term it's all good, and perhaps I just need to deal with it? Interesting that you have next years Bianca on your bench - am I going to regret buying my own Bianca?


 I don't think so....in fact I still need to give it a very detailed going over, it's only a prototype. I always thought it was a pretty well sorted machine.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Why is the water sensor not working?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Andy93 - the water sensor is definitely something you need to have it sorted out.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

On the Bianca, this can often be the Tank connector cable underneath not seated properly, or not making proper contact.


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## Andy93 (Jun 6, 2021)

@Rob1 - the machine doesn't tell me the tank is empty so I assume something's up with it

@DavecUK - is this something I can look at myself? Not sure where I'd start


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Andy93 Yes, there is a lead like an earphone jack plug, or it used to be connecting the tank electrically to the main body of the machine....if that's not connected, I think it disables low water detection....It's been a while, so I could be wrong..I'd look there first


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Andy93 said:


> - the machine doesn't tell me the tank is empty so I assume something's up with it - is this something I can look at myself? Not sure where I'd start


 Yeah, that's my point. It's definitely not working so you need to find out why and fix it. You can damage the pump running it dry, hopefully this hasn't been happening when the auto-fill is triggered for the service boiler if you have the machine on a timer in the morning.


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