# Why Descriptors Suck...



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

...(to use Mr Leighton's vernacular







)

The guys at Colonna & Smalls are amongst the people I most respect in coffee. They recently redesigned their menu (see link), but still base it around the flavour notes of each of the coffees. Great stuff. It suits their objectives, and also their customers.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/243605336324468736
In Speciality Coffee this seems to be a given. We talk about the notes. It's as if talking about the notes validates that our coffee is different. Is elevated. It reminds me of this video.






I have no issue with notes. However, I believe they can be offputting to the majority of people. Yes, the majority. The disadvantages of notes can often outweigh the advantages. For example:

1. We all have different sensory skills and a differently tuned trigeminal system. Things taste differently to each of us, so notes can never be consistently interpreted across drinkers.

2. We all brew differently. Water quality. Recipes. Brew methods. Temperature. Technique. This results in different notes for each of us.

3. Other factors. Humidity. Bean age. Roast degree. Different types and quality of grinder burrs. Etc. All affect flavour notes.

4. How we drink it. Is the cup preheated? How hot is our preferred drinking temperature? It can taste very different between 80C and 65C.

5. When you offer descriptors you make a promise to customers. "It will taste like this to you." That is a big expectation to live up to in light of the aforementioned factors. Breaking that promise, even if the brew is performed perfectly, is quite possible.

And so on.

There is certainly merit in notes. They can and do often help illustrate the differences between speciality and commodity coffee. But if we were to avoid using them, would the coffee be any worse? What would be the effect upon the popularity of speciality coffee?

Ok, I'll reign that idea in. There are some notes that I think are acceptable to just about everyone. For example, if someone referred to a particular red wine as 'full bodied', I'd say most people would probably taste it and agree (if they like to drink wine). Similarly a beer might be described as 'hoppy'. An extra mature cheddar can be readily understood to be 'strong'. Also, sometimes something so clearly tastes of a descriptor, and is made to taste that way even to the untrained palate, that it is valid to use that in the notes... e.g. a Belgian raspberry biere. You know what you're getting when you order, and you get it.

It's great to talk about the notes, but I also believe that if speciality coffee is to reach a larger audience and challenge lower quality coffees in the popularity stakes then we need to make it ok to NOT talk about the notes too.

This is a thought-in-progress, but I'm considering taking this approach at work. We may very well focus on very simple descriptors that are easy for customers to relate to so they can choose a coffee that suits their mood just as they would choose a 'rich' Merlot one day and a 'crisp' Pinot Grigio the next day. Customers with good palates will of course taste the more complex notes, but those who don't will not feel so inferior, or so disappointed, or so compelled to pretend that they get it, or so unlikely to come back for more coffee snobbery. They will just enjoy the coffee.

Of course, many in speciality coffee want it to remain niche. A club. Those people will vehemently disagree with me. I'm cool with that. We need both.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I think it is dangerous ground to be selling coffee to the general public making promises around complex flavour notes that like you point out can vary by method, age of beans etc. and are also quite personal. What I do think though that where you are offering different blends/SO broad descriptors can work well to help engage the customer with the process and what you are trying to achieve. Its these elements that can make joe public think, wow that was a cafe but one that is different to any I have been to before, I must come back again.

I think simple descriptors can work well, where the single obvious predominant note is stated e.g. red fruit, caramel, chocolate. It keeps it easy to identify and also educates as to the range within coffee flavours.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Good points.

One of the challenges is that rather than think



forzajuve said:


> that was a cafe but one that is different to any I have been to before, I must come back again.


many demographic sections of the public behave more like:

that was a cafe but one that is different to any I have been to before. I didn't understand. I didn't want to be engaged. I wanted a coffee.

I think it comes down to who your customers are, their characteristics etc. If they are young, experimental, urban-dwelling, looking for new and cool experiences then descriptors are perfect. And it seems to me that speciality coffeeshops target that demographic to a degree. But speciality coffee is for everyone, and people who fall into other demographic classifications may feel more comfortable with something that reminds them of what they already know but is better... without all the fuss of having to learn or adapt to changes.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

So long as you dont thrust the descriptors into their faces when they order, I think the people who ''just want a coffee'' wont even notice something like a chalk-board detailing the origin and some low level flavour characteristics (I still like the idea of comfort versus adventure options) If they do notice it then it might grab their interest.

Inviting them to engage if they wish could be a good strategy.

Maybe have a sign saying ''Want to know more about our coffees? dont be afraid to ask!''

or ''Todays guest espresso - We think this coffee is rich and chocolatey, please let us know what you think about it!''

I dont think I ever would have got involved in coffee at all if it wasnt for the unique flavours to be found (and discussed), if it all just tasted ''like coffee'', I would walk away...


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> I dont think I ever would have got involved in coffee at all if it wasnt for the unique flavours to be found (and discussed), if it all just tasted ''like coffee'', I would walk away...


Me too, Gary, but that's not what I was referring to at all







The flavour notes can and must be there in the cup... just not always on the wall, menu, bag etc. Once we step away from the coffee afficionado mindset and into the shoes of joe public then descriptors can actively be a bad thing.

But I don't really agree that customers who are just after a coffee won't notice. If that is the case then the signage is ineffective anyway and shouldn't be there. If it's doing its job properly then customers can't fail to notice the notes as they are deciding on a coffee, and to many.. the majority I would argue.. it is an undesirable approach to helping them enjoy the coffee. (Not to me of course... but to most normal people I have ever met who aren't coffee buffs it is just weird and wrong!)

Please don't take this as some sort of attack upon everything you hold dear, mate


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I find descriptors on the bag useful. While everyone tastes differently, if I'm not getting the remotest hint of anything on the bag I can be sure I'm doing something wrong. That's me though, someone that reads and writes on a coffee forum. This needs input from Joe Schmo though - market research. Generally speaking, I think most people faced with a wall of descriptors would find it either frightening or contemptible.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

To that extreme a wall of single origins listed (without any descriptors) would be equally frightening for Joe Bloggs.

''How the hell am I supposed to know if I want a Columbian coffee or a Kenyan?'' .. ''I just want a latte/Americano for Christssakes''.

If you go to the lengths to offer choices, then at least give people a guide for the choices being offered?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

So kind of like when I said



> very simple descriptors that are easy for customers to relate to so they can choose a coffee that suits their mood just as they would choose a 'rich' Merlot one day and a 'crisp' Pinot Grigio the next day.


 ?


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Why not take away the rigidity while still keeping the descriptors an integral part of what you do? After all it is one of the major factors that sets our world apart from the commodity coffee world and I believe the general populus actually love it! Everybody loves to be drinking something a cut above even if they know nothing about it and having descriptors on the menu is a major part of letting people know that you are offering something special and I really don't think it is going to scare anybody off, however, if you start over customerising you are running the risk of being missed by your specialty coffee enthusiast who perhaps is fairly new to it(of which I predict there will be many before too long) and needs a sort of beacon to show her/him what you do.

Anyway, even a cheap bottle of plonk has flavour descriptors on the back, which everybody reads, it doesn't stop anybody from buying it and those who simply don't get it and freely admit that they don't get it still love to read that blurb on the bottle and see how it translates to their own palate. Not only that but most people who know nothing about wine like to read it to help them choose it in the first place too.

Right, so my idea that I hinted at when i began writing is something that i thought of a few weeks back for my own place and something that i wanted to keep to myself a little (not for selfish reasons by the way) but seeing as it may be something of interest to you I will share..

So my menu was basically going to follow a similar format to the new Colonna & Smalls plus a couple of things, for instance, my cups will be 190ml as standard(crowd pleasing compromise) with the addition of a 150ml 'competition' sized cup. The bit that may be of interest to you however is that the descripors will to be broken into two boxes, one small and one larger, the first of which being 'What We Found' the second being 'What You Found' and encourage customers that their opinion of the coffee is just as valid as ours and to come and tell us what they thought. I thought this would be another rather fun way of engaging the customer and help get them excited about specialty coffee and to assist in breaking down the boundries some may see between us and them when it comes to perception of flavour.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks Nick.

Your second paragraph I can completely agree with. "What we taste/what you taste" is good. The implication is that we all taste different things and there is no right or wrong, which is something I think is needed to help engage customers with speciality coffee.

I don't think I'll ever be able to reconcile myself with your first para though - there are so many things about it that I disagree with that I wouldn't even want to get started


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Is Exmoor some sort of haven for free-thinking gourmets?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Let me give an example that I found funny the other day. I'm standing at the bar in a local pub. A young guy comes in and orders a few drinks. Then he says to the barman "do you have any lemon?" The barman looks quite aghast and replies "Lemon??!" with a baffled, slightly angry sneer, as if the lad had just asked if he could shag the barman's daughter. "Yeah, you know, for the Corona" said the customer. "No. No Lemon" the barman said abruptly.

What is normal for one group of people is surprisingly abnormal for another.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Yeah, the no right or wrong thing thing is something I hope the menu will highlight.

which bits do you disagree with? I'll see if I can better explain(not to try and make you agree but I was only headlining things and reading through, some things don't read as I intended!)


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Yeah, that is pretty aweful and secondly what if somebody wants a gin and tonic with lemon?

Exmoor and North Devon is full of foodies, wine poofs, ale poofs, etc, I don't know if it is driven by our tourist industry or the fact it's a haven for the rich or what it is but the standard of food and drink down here is outstanding! Good coffee is however somewhat of a rarity which is very sad but to somebody like me it spells 'If noone else will, then i'd better have a go!'


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Well only because you asked ...











Outlaw333 said:


> After all it [descriptors] is one of the major factors that sets our world apart from the commodity coffee world


I'd rather the major thing that set us apart was better tasting coffee.



Outlaw333 said:


> and I believe the general populus actually love it!


you're entitled to that opinion, Nick. I'd love it if you were correct. But either the population where you live is much more enlightened than the people I meet on a daily basis, or I don't think you're looking at it from the perspective of a range of demographics.



Outlaw333 said:


> Everybody loves to be drinking something a cut above even if they know nothing about it


nope



Outlaw333 said:


> I really don't think it is going to scare anybody off


It is. Not everyone of course.



Outlaw333 said:


> if you start over customerising you are running the risk of being missed by your specialty coffee enthusiast who perhaps is fairly new to it(of which I predict there will be many before too long) and needs a sort of beacon to show her/him what you do.


When descriptors become the beacon for customers I think the coffeeshop has lost its way and marketing has become more important than taste.



Outlaw333 said:


> even a cheap bottle of plonk has flavour descriptors on the back, which everybody reads


everyone?



Outlaw333 said:


> those who simply don't get it and freely admit that they don't get it still love to read that blurb on the bottle and see how it translates to their own palate.


arsecheeks











Outlaw333 said:


> Not only that but most people who know nothing about wine like to read it to help them choose it in the first place too.


Maybe, maybe not. I think people who like Merlot buy Merlot when the mood takes them, people who like Cabernet Sauvignon buy Cabernet Sauvignon etc. When you're in a restaurant you don't usually get to see the bottle until just before it is opened. You see the menu. In a restaurant it will often show notes on the menu. Often it will not, and just give you the name, region or grape variety, perhaps with a simple descriptor such as fruity, bold, well rounded, sweet etc. I think it's those simple descriptors that work well with most people. Like I say, I do like descriptors and I do choose wine the same way you do, but I'm not joe public.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Kind of what I was saying here :

Inviting them to engage if they wish could be a good strategy.

Maybe have a sign saying ''Want to know more about our coffees? dont be afraid to ask!''

or ''Todays guest espresso - We think this coffee is rich and chocolatey, please let us know what you think about it!''


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yes. None of that involves overawing the customer with descriptors. So does this mean you agree after all?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> So kind of like when I said ?


Yes. That still qualifies as a descriptor tho.

The chalkboard could read

option A

*Brazil ABC Pulped Natural*- It is coffee

*Kenya XYZ Washed* - It is also coffee

or Option B

*Brazil ABC Pulped Natural*- Smooth & chocolatey

*Kenya XYZ Washed* - Bright & zingy

or Option C

*
Brazil ABC Pulped Natural*- Smooth & chocolatey. Hints of caramel and nuts

*Kenya XYZ Washed* - Bright & zingy. Notes of Citrus peel and blackcurrent.

You are saying that option C would make non-coffee people feel stupid etc, thats fine I agree maybe outside of a big city maybe it would. But option B would give enough info for customers to make a choice or start asking questions. Option A - almost pointless having the coffees listed at all


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Let me give an example that I found funny the other day. I'm standing at the bar in a local pub. A young guy comes in and orders a few drinks. Then he says to the barman "do you have any lemon?" The barman looks quite aghast and replies "Lemon??!" with a baffled, slightly angry sneer, as if the lad had just asked if he could shag the barman's daughter. "Yeah, you know, for the Corona" said the customer. "No. No Lemon" the barman said abruptly.
> 
> What is normal for one group of people is surprisingly abnormal for another.


Im suprised this establishment sold Corona to be honest!


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

Really interesting thread and lots of good points.

Considering the customer base where you operate specifically and pitching the proposition at the right level is so important though.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

What I mean't by the descriptors setting us apart is, we have coffee that has descriptors! our coffee actually tastes of something and is complex and delicious. People who see coffee and only coffee but like the idea of drinking the best, at a glance would they realise our product is better if it wasn't written on the menu? For example, you know nothing about wine, you are taking a group of friends to dinner at a nice resturant when the waiter presents you with a wine menu with little or no descriptors, how many people do you think pick the wine by its name and how many go purely on price, with the majority going for the high end in the hope that by doing so they will be drinking something of higher quality. The price of coffee however is fairly standard across the board and Starbucks coffees for example have names that sound to somebody who isn't in the know, very similar to that of a specialty offering, until they have tasted the coffee and experienced what it has to offer for themselves the descriptors on the menu are one of the few real defining features you can give somebody that set you apart.

The other thing is, somebody who drinks instant coffee every day and has one cappuccino a week in town, will that person really notice the difference between the Costa of one week, the M&S of the next and the Boston Tea Party the week after on flavour in the cup alone? is that person going to come back next week or are they just going to go whever is nearby when they fancy their coffee? This is a person who shops in M&S so they obviously like the convenience of a supermarket/all in one over the butcher, the baker, the dress maker, etc, however they want something a cut above hence they are in M&S and not Tesco, therefore this is likely to be somebody who likes something to let them know that what they are drinking is going to be a better product than that of the highstreet chain but doesn't have the confidence, time, belief in their palate or really that much of a care to tell the diffence without something to stimulate them into doing so. This is your average upper middle class Joe/Josephine that you will find in the south west.


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## bdt (Sep 13, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Im suprised this establishment sold Corona to be honest!


Laughed when I read Mike's post as it reminded me a lot of the Frankie Boyle gag about someone ordering lager & lime in a Glasgow boozer....

"We don't do cocktails here son"


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> You are saying that option C would make non-coffee people feel stupid etc, thats fine I agree maybe outside of a big city maybe it would. But option B would give enough info for customers to make a choice or start asking questions. Option A - almost pointless having the coffees listed at all


Well, not feel stupid... that's not the word I would use... and to be honest your option C uses very simple descriptors and isn't really an example of what I'm referring to. I mean... smooth, bright, chocolatey, zingy... they aren't complex descriptors.

I have to say though that I personally have never tasted blackcurrant in coffee, either when I've brewed it or in a good coffeeshop. Only twice have I *very clearly *tasted something along those lines. Once was Strawberry in a Square Mile coffee that John brewed at Piccolo in Newcastle, and the other was Blueberry, once again from a Square Mile coffee at Giddy Up Floripa in London. So maybe I have rubbish sensory skills, and I'm ok with that. I don't feel stupid. That makes me slightly more like joe public. So when I see descriptors, I usually think... "really? let's see shall we?" and usually the descriptor isn't there. Promise broken. But hey - I still enjoy the coffee even without the descriptors!

But I think we're not miles apart. I agree that A is useless, and not sure why you seem to be suggesting that I'm advocating that level of (non)descriptor when clearly I'm not. Options B or C would be fine. It's Option D I have a problem with.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

We agree then, as for me option B or C work. Joe Public isnt overwelmed, and coffee geek satisfied : )


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

I actually wrote that before seeing your breakdown of the first paragraph and I agree with what you picked out being questionable but I also believe that most people who drink coffee in a coffee shop are there because they want something better than something else, to some it is to have something better than what comes freeze dried in a jar but I think most people are there, even in Costa etc genuinely think that they are drinking the best coffee has to offer which is why they are happy to pay over the odds to be there. these are people with some interest in coffee but who look to the familiar and the trusted, if one is to coax them out it is down to marketing/advertising first and a top quality product second as new customers aproach from the outside in not the inside out. (Don't take that as the marketing is more important, that isn't what I mean't!







)

Please don't think I mean't that descriptors alone are the defining feature, it read wrong and I will reiterate that the defining feature is the fact that our coffee actually has descriptors!

Just to clarify, I'm not talking long over complicated coffee poofery but a simple breakdown like Garys options B) or C) to help define characteristic differences.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

> long over complicated coffee poofery


I think this should preface my coffee menu


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

K.I.S.S., people !


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

oooo dont mind if i do!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

This has me quite torn. On the one hand I do think that seeing some sort of taste description shows that the people behind the bar know about their product and take some interest in it. On the other hand, one only has to think of the advert featuring Gilly Goulding a while back and her "[...] a hint of hollyhocks" or more recently the Gordon's Gin advert with Emily Fox and Philip Glennister to see how much of the public sees this as pretentious.

I think many people are put off by some of the specific descriptors used (what does a hollyhock taste like anyway?). These can often be subjective and even quite personal. Friends of mine from China have described tea to me as tasting of Mango bit clearly they have a different idea of how Mango tastes to me.

To make real ale more accessible without seeming pretentious, Hall and Woodhouse started putting taste scales on the bottles for their beers so different beers could be compared for levels of hoppy, sweetness, bitterness, etc.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

you could of course have the two boxes as I previously mentioned but instead have 'For The Muggles' offering Garys option A and 'Long Over Complicated Coffee Poofery' offering whatever you like!

just a thought


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## Obsy (May 21, 2012)

I don't have a great sensory palate and I know that even if I get a really good shot with the grind nailed, I can't seem to pick up on some of the descriptors that my brother can and yet I'm the coffee geek. I still enjoy the cups I make and my palate is improving but I do feel a little let down if I miss a descriptor that drew me to those beans in the first place.

For me, I'd feel discouraged picking a coffee in a new cafe that I chose from very specific and detailed notes (unless I deliberately went into such a place to help with my palate issues). My love of coffee, the commodity stuff, led me to chain cafes that I thought were on another level. I then wanted to recreate those tastes and drinks at home, did some research, found you guys and had my mind blown. It still amazes me daily what I've learnt and what journey lies ahead. My family love having a decent coffee from me but apart from my brother, they can taste the difference but don't really want to analyse it or know much about it.

I know where I am there isn't a great deal of choice without going to York or Newcastle for a really good coffee but when I go into a new place, even understanding somewhat about flavour profiles, SO, blends, country of origin, process etc, what makes me choose my coffee is a simple description that allows me an insight into what to expect but doesn't impress on me exactly what I should get. What makes me go back is a good shot, well executed with the opportunity to chat in depth about the coffee if I want to. My opinion is to give a little peek, let the superb speciality coffee speak for itself and let customers decide on their own descriptions. I personally like it when I hear 'Wow'. That's gotta be thumbs up in anyones books


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## beebah (Apr 1, 2012)

I think a good description will sell the coffee rather than put people off. This seems to be key - it's not just about how many descriptors are used, it's about how you describe it. I would feel comfortable using general descriptors like rich/crisp or smooth/sharp, but when you start naming other tastes like chocolate or fruit you stray into a more subjective area and you run the risk of setting unrealistic expectations.

For me, the amount of description that's actually useful depends on the amount of choice. If someone is buying beans, then they'll pay much closer attention to the differences (as described by the seller) if there are several to choose from. Similarly, if a cafe is going to offer a choice of several different coffees it seems elitist not to give the customer some information to help them choose. On the flipside, if a cafe has a house blend/SO, it seems a bit pretentious and unnecessary to go into detail about it's various qualities.

Having said that, I have very limited experience in the coffee world, and live in London, which I'm told can skew your opinions slightly


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Reiterating what Outlaw says, my take would be that customers are likely to fall into people who want "a coffee", rightly expect it to be of decent quality, maybe aren't overly bothered about in-depth analysis...(perhaps the same folks who would give a restaurant wine list a cursory glance and ask for a bottle of the "house wine", or in an upmarket curry house they might forego the chef's obscure, regional speciality dish & plump for the good old "safe bet" CTM, or biriyani? They expect something tasty, maybe a little different to the norm, but familiar at the same time) and the folk who are more keen to explore more "off the beaten track" experiences.

I like to explore, but equally there are those situations where you grab at something with a familiar feel...I remember stopping at a food outlet at a train station, "order one from this list, select an accompaniment, from this list, you are now entitled to a drink from this list, then you can..." - I just want some tasty food before my train goes in 20 minutes, I'm not auditioning for the krypton factor...;-) I can imagine, well I don't have to really...it's all we have round here...that some folks can be challenged enough just by deciding how to have the one coffee on offer, rather than run through half a dozen permutations of half a dozen coffees.

Restaurants, pubs & bars may have a great choice & diversity, but (even in Belgian specialty beer bars) they all still have that "safe bet".

What's the coffee equivalent of a chicken tikka massala, or a Jupiler then? ;-)


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

White coffee/black coffee


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I do want to round this off though by reiterating that I find the sensory side of coffee drinking one of the most enjoyable parts, even though I remain poor at it, and even though I think descriptors are often used inappropriately. Tasting and describing are talents that some seem to inherently have, and skills that others strive to learn (me), and I do love learning.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

How many coffees are you planning to have on at any one time Mike and are you having a brew bar? I only ask because if you only have say 2 options for espresso and 1 or 2 on your brew bar it may not be necessary to incude descriptors and just have info on provenance and leave the descriptors and poofery for those who ask at the bar. I think it may help customers choose from a wider menu however if you where to include a short description of flavour profile, for example..

Guest Filter 1: Ethiopia, Wote Yirgacheffe Wet Process, Roaster - Square Mile "Light and Bright, Citrus, Jammy and Floral"

Guest Filter 2: Costa Rica, Finca de Licho Honey Process, Roaster - Has Bean "Sweet, Honey, Fruity and Chocolate notes"

Guest Filter 3: Indonesia, Wahana Estate Natural Process, Roaster - Extract "Funky, Dried Fruits, Prune Juice, Sweet and Complex"

House Espresso: (Whatever it may be) Roaster - Has Bean "Sweet and Delicious, Creamy Mouthfeel, Caramel, Nutty"

You get the idea..

I really do believe that flavour notes/descriptors would be a useful thing for delineating the coffees on offer for even the greenest customer, It will also help you clear a queue faster as you won't have so many confused customers asking what the difference is between each coffee!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Well the thing is Nick, taking the Wote as an example, you have 17 words there and none of them are 'coffee'. Sure, you and I as deep deep coffee fans can look at that on the menu and think "Great. I love having all that info." But most people (and it seems we are never going to agree on the Most People part) will look and think "What the hell? Is that coffee or a passage from Jabberwocky?" If your target market is deep deep coffee fans/baristas, do what you suggest. Mine isn't. My target market is people who want to taste the best coffee in Scotland. They don't need to be interested in processing methods, and very probably won't be. I invite you to stand in any place of your choosing North of Edinburgh and stop people in the street to see if they would be receptive to the jabberwocky. I promise you, you'll get a 1 in 100 hit rate if you're lucky. That's fine... that's a challenge I relish. But the way to tackle it is most definitely not to treat them like you would treat customers in East London. That would be arrogant and blind, I believe. They need to be nurtured. A gentle encouraging hand. Your descriptors are a slap on the cheek with a leather glove. One day, Nick. One day they will want that... or at least a larger population will. But honestly, if you are serious about opening your own place then I really think you need to take the coffee hat off and put your joe public hat on, because I think you're at risk of alienating your customers. Maybe this seema strange coming from me, but opening my own place is also opening my eyes to how blinkered I myself have been, and what a coffee snob I am.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Never underestimate the power of suggestion, nor that this whole thing is partly a marketing ploy, much like writing menus.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I'd be surprised (understatement) if Mike sold the Wahana Estate...a source of Kopi Luwak.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> Never underestimate the power of suggestion, nor that this whole thing is partly a marketing ploy, much like writing menus.


Other forums I have been a member of have an option to make an antagonistic members posts invisible. I never thought we'd need it here but once again Expo has shown that there is no limit to the twistedness of his mind, and I'm just very tired of seeing his shite amongst the sea of good stuff on this forum.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

MWJB said:


> I'd be surprised (understatement) if Mike sold the Wahana Estate...a source of Kopi Luwak.


Yeah, I've identified Wahana as a civet coffee farm previously. Such a shame when they also do good proper coffee.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Other forums I have been a member of have an option to make an antagonistic members posts invisible. I never thought we'd need it here but once again Expo has shown that there is no limit to the twistedness of his mind, and I'm just very tired of seeing his shite amongst the sea of good stuff on this forum.


Ooh the irony


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't find it ironic. I find it disappointing that you're freely allowed to have such a negative impact upon those who want to make this forum a productive place to exchange ideas. Thanks to you this forum needs moderators who moderate, which is currently not happening.

Fuck this. I've tried to tolerate you for months now but you win. This forum is too small for both of us. This is me signing off permanently.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Oh please. Spare us all the tantrums, insults and lunacy and just add my username to your 'Ignore list' in your Settings. It's what it is there for.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Ooo is this handbags at dawn??

Back on thread, descriptions can be a good thing for those that know what they mean or would like to learn but to much information can be just as negative and of putting to people that don't know or don't care, because while it may be nice to understand what i may taste in a coffee, i have read some of the excellent write ups on here and have failed to taste some of the flavours/notes that people describe, so to a customer that is not a Geek any further info that the type and basic flavour may be wasted.

Its how can you use descriptions that are inclusive/simple so everyone can understand them, not exclusive/complex so that there is and air of snobbery about it. i would imagine that anyone that really wants to know a more in depth view of each coffee they will ask the Barista.

there have been some very good examples of nice simple descriptions already so i wont try.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I hope that Mike comes back! We are a richer community with him in!

I don't believe you could sell coffee (as a roaster) without descriptors. You are making a declaration of the coffee's quality by going into depth about flavours/mouthfeel etc which the customer would expect to get. Using descriptors in a cafe is a different matter and in my opinion should be at the discretion of the barista based on what they think the customer's level of interest/knowledge is.

For example I remember when I was at the Attic with Gordon and Mike a man asked for a strong espresso shot. Gordon did not try to offer tasting notes, he just chose the Sidamo as it was a more complex shot. This customer clearly wasn't interested in tasting notes for this coffee.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> I hope that Mike comes back! We are a richer community with him in!
> 
> I don't believe you could sell coffee (as a roaster) without descriptors. You are making a declaration of the coffee's quality by going into depth about flavours/mouthfeel etc which the customer would expect to get. Using descriptors in a cafe is a different matter and in my opinion should be at the discretion of the barista based on what they think the customer's level of interest/knowledge is.
> 
> For example I remember when I was at the Attic with Gordon and Mike a man asked for a strong espresso shot. Gordon did not try to offer tasting notes, he just chose the Sidamo as it was a more complex shot. This customer clearly wasn't interested in tasting notes for this coffee.


If there had been a chalk board on the wall which read :

''Todays guest espresso we have Ethiopia Sidamo - Juicy , hints of Red berries, cloudy lemonade-like-acidity.''

Do you think the man 1. would have even noticed the sign

2. Been offended / bewildered and walked off

3. Intreged and possibly asked what it meant


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## 20Eyes (Mar 16, 2011)

Must admit, I thought the 'power of suggestion' post was valid. I have bought coffee which the vendor - and their online reviewers - have clearly stated, 'tastes of X' and then found that I couldn't detect anything like the promised taste and nor could others who I prepared the coffee for without telling them what it was 'supposed' to taste like.

While I don't doubt that many/most in the quality coffee business are genuine, passionate and honest, it IS still a business and product needs to be sold. One reason I trust Has Bean is because of the 'out of 100' score. It takes a brave man to mark one coffee he's selling at 85 and others at 95. Although, even that could, cynically, be considered (or used as) a marketing ploy.

I don't think it's overly negative to believe that people who sell any product are likely to present it in its best light, even if that may mean slightly over-estimating it or aligning it with tastes and flavours they know will appeal.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> If there had been a chalk board on the wall which read :
> 
> ''Todays guest espresso we have Ethiopia Sidamo - Juicy , hints of Red berries, cloudy lemonade-like-acidity.''
> 
> ...


He would not have understood what it meant. What is single origin espresso? I just want a strong coffee for godsake!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

These people cant live in the dark forever. Single origin espresso actually exists. (even if some of the far-out invented tasting notes dont) hehe


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

i think what mike was asking was the level of info for your average person. not us, as even I with my very limited pallet look for flavours, but 95% of the population may like to think they are informed but are not on par with most you guys, I am amazed at the complex flavours some describe, but if your using information to sell a product, the old saying of "Share, don't scare" would not be a bad motto.


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## garyw (Apr 19, 2012)

MikeHag;49687
Fuck this.
Can somebody explain this descriptor? It has been used so much that without the vocal tone Im not getting the full meaning of the expression. Is it mildly irritated? Moderately irritated? Ticked off for a night and will come back when calmed down? It has lost its meaning over the years [IMG alt=";)" said:


> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/uploads/emoticons/wink.png.ec0da91ed6be61eac47b026a1189c21c.png[/IMG]
> 
> People are people I guess. So much so that the UK coffee business in in danger of making an elitist core and destroying the individually owned coffee shop by lack of profit.
> 
> ...


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## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

I don't think it's beyond the capabilities of a well run cafe to allow for some discussion (or being "a tosser" as you put it). I would argue that the lack of profit comes from flaws at the outset in the business model (e.g. too high a rent relative to footfall).


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## garyw (Apr 19, 2012)

The aim is to have a well run business. If that is addressed, one would imagine that the business model would have been investigated thoroughly prior to investment, and in general, all that has to be concentrated on, is, a well run business. I dont think we are in disagreement here.

"OK... All said. I dont want the UK small coffee industry go down the toilet due to fiscal inadequacy. Make money first and indulge in the luxury of deep discussion when we can afford to in the shop..."


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## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

Yeah, making money is a priority. But from my own experience the problem hasn't been with execution, it's been with the investigation part. I don't think embarking down a road where you wish to discuss coffee tastes with your customers is a path to ruin if you have the fundamentals right: decent rent/location and a menu that makes you money.

Having said all that, I don't think I'd bother with descriptors initially. Just have good coffee and a bit of chat! Maybe review after six months, once you have better understanding of the customers; maybe even involve them in developing a new coffee menu?


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## garyw (Apr 19, 2012)

Im not dismissing discussion. The hardest part is getting a good Barista that actually knows his stuff, is not a Prima Donna can work and give accurate concise answers and advice without holding the line up. Once you have the person to trust, work out a satisfactory deal with him/her and let him/her go to work without interference. You will notice that He or she will suddenly develop a totally professional attitude and keep that line moving and put their own personality into keeping it moving.. Its their business in one sense.

I absolutely hate being 6th back and watching some person discussing the difference between Malawi and Indian Malabar... I was held up for 20 minutes once..and when the next person started asking I left and I swore it would never happen again. I wont let my customers be held up either so have devised polite and effective ways to side step the whole issue without causing offence.

The morning rush for us, could be anywhere from 100 to 250 people from 6am till 8. Mid morning and about 2:30 pm would see at least double that. (We were right next to the Interstate where workers came off to go to their jobs). People were in a hurry. Even in this country, working people want their coffee as soon as.

Im not a lover in involving customers in things 'officially'. I will ask them for opinions off the cuff, more like.. "You seem to like that coffee Fred, what is it about it?".. and when the item appears in a special placing or whatever, I might mention that it was especially for him.... they like that.. and give a free coffee and cake to him or her. Keeps it all clean.

If I changed the house filter coffee.. I had it half price for a week, till the regulars (most were) got used to it and then it was on full price. Dont forget in the US refills are free. (filter only). Its cheap enough to do here and almost no one does it?

My colleagues and I were discussing presentation recently. I use almost solely for personal use a Siphon pot. Now a 24 oz pot will hold 2 mugs or 4 cups (6 oz) of coffee. It contains 35 grams of coffee. You can serve (with presentation) on the table, with biscuits for £4:95. Its 2 cups each. Filter coffee per cup is £1:50 on average so it is value. If we are not too busy, we will give them another pot for free simply because THAT is what customers remember and like. The good service and the generosity. We do that for all the customers. We will refill filter coffee without being asked, because you know what? Thats what we all like.

Thursday nights, we had coffee club, back porch with tastings and shooting the breeze with customers and trade suppliers that popped in. As I am a roaster, I would dem the machines and the home units. Of all of them the easiest and the easiest way to start is hot air gun, Metal bowl, wooden spoon and 15 mins of stirring. Sat out on the porch on a beautiful sunny Florida day, the chaff flying, coffee in one hand, a liquor in the other and talking coffee stuff was fun.

Couldnt have done any of it without reaching the figure required to play.

A business can present any image they want. It is an image, no matter how nice or genuine the people are, its an image of how they want to promote their business. Richard Branson and Freddie Laker are two examples that spring to mind. In the end, you have to deliver.

I do think that there is a lot of pretentiousness in the burgeoning coffee scene in the UK. I learned my part of the business in the States and my colleagues learned in another mature coffee scene (Australia) http://ravecoffee.co.uk and I note some of the other roasters in the UK have Australia experience. We KNOW.... absolutely know that it will reach the point where its "Give me my coffee mate" because that is what we are there for. The customer is there because the quality is there. For the newbies we need to continually develop new and friendly ways to answer their questions. I just dont think the order line is the right place.

g


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## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

I appreciate what your saying, but were talking about a cafe outside Perth(?) in Scotland. I haven't been in that area for some time but I would imagine opportunities will exist for a chat!

Different models for different locations/cultures.


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## garyw (Apr 19, 2012)

aah.

Its a cafe not a coffee shop? Not dependent on coffee then. Its a different business altogether. I was refering to a coffee business. My comments dont apply I guess.


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## garyw (Apr 19, 2012)

I do have a few questions. Is this a cafe you are opening? What is the population? Im presuming the discussion regarding being able to chat with customers regarding nuances of coffee is because the locals are coffee enthusiasts? Sorry for being confused but it seems a strange location for you to pick for a specialist coffee business.


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## radish (Nov 20, 2011)

Not me - MikeHag (aka Mike) who started the thread will be the owner. I think food is the main focus of the business, but doing good coffee/tea as well. If he comes back I'm sure he'll fill you in on the plans!


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## garyw (Apr 19, 2012)

I didnt realise you were talking about Mike in Aberfeldy. I just did a quick rundown on statistics and it is a quaint little town. I have been there a few years ago but dont remember too much about it.

It seems to have a few cafes though. For some reason I thought Mike had a B & B with the coffee shop? Somehow I completely overlooked it being Aberfeldy, I guess because he is always writing about other places he is visiting for Roasting and tasting that I thought he was in Glasgow or something. I need to pay more attention. The location seems very rural and seems a kind of 'on the way to, or on the way back' place. Well, Im sure he has done his homework before moving himself there. Its a big change from city life.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Brilliant piece of writing and insight by Maxwell here. Food for thought

http://colonnaandsmalls.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/setting-the-stage/


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

garydyke1 said:


> Brilliant piece of writing and insight by Maxwell here. Food for thought
> 
> http://colonnaandsmalls.wordpress.com/2012/09/16/setting-the-stage/


I read that too today. Maxwells's blog is becoming my favourite quite quickly!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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