# Clever help with clever



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Erm. I'm being lazy again.

I don't want to use my hand grinder because it takes forever and I'm weak and wondered if I could use the mythos for filter coffee through the clever.

The last few efforts have been disgusting and bitter and wondered if anyone had any advice please.

The less effort the better. If there was a way I could not alter the grinder from my standard espresso setting I would be amazingly pleased.

In case it's not obvious what I know about brewed is seriously little.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What recipe/process are you using to brew?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm not! I honestly have no idea what I'm doing.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

As such, first question is: "is there a method involving espresso-esque grind that will make a tasty cup from the clever, please?"


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Paging @MWJB ....


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks. Does this whole @ thing work as an alert?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If the person in question uses tapatalk


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Get ya. Cool. Please @ me in coming days so I can revel in the Tapatalk excitement. Please?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

No worries @jonc


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I think I get alerts on this because I'm subscribed anyway. Hmm. Thanks. Sorry - we're now nicely off topic!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Send Mark a PM for good measure too.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hello! ;-) Lazy brewing? They don't come much lazier than me! 

I think the limiting factor will be whether the grind is so fine that you start seeing sediment in the cup, even a shade before this you might find the flavour muddying up a little, but folks do use "espresso" grind in a Clever.

I'd personally use a permanent filter (Swissgold/Bodum, not Cores, Cilio or Freiling) as well as the paper for best results, but as these cost more than the Clever I'll understand if you're not keen.

Rinse & preheat with water right off the boil, then straight in with your brew water at 65-70g/l, drop the coffee on top of the water, quickly muddle it at the surface to wet it & break up clods (don't dig in & stir it), then cover & leave it. If trying to fill the whole brewer, you might add 2/3 to 3/4 the water, then coffee, then top up, to save overflowing grounds everywhere (look for total brew weight of coffee & water together on the scales, if so).

If you want a rule of thumb steep time, I'll say 35min.

You might get something you like earlier (naturals, Yirgs?), if in a rush (Pffft! "Rush"?) taste off the top after 10 mins, then every few minutes after that until the brew in the Clever tastes good, don't-draw down until it does. Don't read anything into draw-down time, it's mostly a function of grind setting (finer=longer) once the coffee has steeped for a while.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks for detailed input! When you say permanent filter you mean inside the clever? 35 mins is an awfully long time! Presume the coffee gets rather cold in this time - are you topping up with hot water? Must I use scales or can I do it using volume?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

P.s. I'm lazy and impatient.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonc said:


> P.s. I'm lazy and impatient.


Patience grasshopper, speed means input & monitoring...and a coarser grind! 

You could try (no guarantees) coarsening up a tad to coarser(est) espresso range then do an all-in-one drip brew (bloom, then all the water straight in)? If it overextracts just keep reducing the amount of water added until it tastes good, then dilute with water from the kettle if its too strong...but that's already sounding like "work" to me...like I said, try tasting as you go, you might find something good, sooner, 35min is giving it the maximum time before it's cooled.

After 35min, usually around 55-60C, about the same as an espresso based drink. Preheat your cup. I find it hard to get the nuances & sweetness in coffee if it's 'hot' hot. I have microwaved brewed coffee with no seemingly adverse effects


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonc said:


> When you say permanent filter you mean inside the clever? ... Must I use scales or can I do it using volume?


Permanent filter inside the paper filter, both inside the Clever.

I would use scales, but you could use scales to ascertain the amount of brew water the Clever will hold when full, then just weigh the ground coffee to give between 65&70g/l, always weigh the coffee at least. Remember, that if you do switch to a permanent filter, as well as paper, the permanent filter will displace some water, compared to paper only, so you need to re-establish how much it holds.

E.g. I weigh out 31g of coffee (to the gram will do) for my parent's old style Clever (clear with "ear" shaped handle, just a lip on the lid edge), on the assumption that it will hold ~485g of water when full.

Version 2 Clever (smoked plastic, "C" shaped handle, ferrule around the edge of the lid) with a Swissgold & paper about the same.

Version 2 with just paper ~530g of brew water when full (35-36g coffee)?

In a steep, the grind size & time drive extraction, if you're say 60g/l or 70g/l then the coffee will hit around the same point (all else being equal) it'll just be a little stronger/weaker.


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## Steve7 (Dec 19, 2014)

Confused.

My clever takes 22g coffee in first, then 375 ml water which takes it about a cm from the top.

Four minutes to brew, then on the cup and drink after about five when he draw is complete.

The grind is between espresso and press pot, but finer than drip.

Whats the 35 minute thing? That would mean a cold cup! But if the guidance I have read elsewhere and seen on barista videos is about three to four minute, won't 35 make it taste foul?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It would if 55-60C were cold, but it's not. Preheat the cup, then it will be hot. You can microwave it if you want it hotter. Shorter steep will still produce coffee, I like mine sweet (& stronger than you evidently). Occasionally can get a result in under 10min, but resigned myself to waiting until it was at the temp I like.

Coarser grind & 4min won't get the same result. Pouring the water over espresso grinds more likely to overextract fines, whilst not hitting the same total extraction.

I do my press pots at fine grind, same as the Clever.


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## Steve7 (Dec 19, 2014)

Thanks. Never heard of a steep that long.

My grind is one full turn and a half on the hausgrind. Or 1 turn and to six.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Steve7 said:


> Thanks. Never heard of a steep that long.
> 
> My grind is one full turn and a half on the hausgrind. Or 1 turn and to six.


Only had a few brews with the newer Clever (my son has one) but i definitely found that coffee into water came out much tastier than water over coffee (IMO).

I got good results with a small brew 13g/210g water using a 10 o clock grind on the Hausgrind (i.e. less than one full turn) - i used a 15min steep then drawdown. A bigger brew will keep the temperature up higher, speeding up extraction. I'd guess you might get something good with a bigger volume using a minimum 10min steep before drawdown. I wouldn't go less than that with coffee into water. Worth experimenting!


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## Steve7 (Dec 19, 2014)

I followed the guide on sweet Maria's website, and thought four minutes was pushing it. I have only had intense sweetness once, but the beans were billed as having a white sugar taste!

I may try longer tomorrow, but I have never seen any recipe for brewed coffee that has anything like that time of immersion. I was curious why all the guides suggest a lot less...

But happy to have a play and see! I have two kilos of hasbean to mess with thanks to the recent offers...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

There is a commonly accepted myth that coffee & water must be in contact for 4mins max & that such a steep time requires a coarse grind, neither is true.

For cafes, I wouldn't expect any customer to hang round for 10-30mins for a brewed coffee, I wouldn't if out shopping, or on a lunch break, but at home, or in the office it's not an issue...get a brew going & jump in the shower, come out to a nice brew.

There are phases in the brew where the flavour will go good, worse, better again...when tasting off the top, before drawing down, there will be some bitter oils that collect there, so disperse these with a little stir at the surface (bearing in mind the more times you take the lid off, the cooler the brew will get).

It's possible, but rare, that you will get to a point where the immersion gets a little past the sweetest spot, but more likely bitterness is due to not steeping long enough, or being too coarse.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Thanks - That's very interesting because I'd always had a horrible bitter coffee after very short contact time and just assumed it was in contact too long. I'll have a play.


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## oddknack (Apr 8, 2014)

Knowledge bombs being dropped here, thanks very much. Excited to have a play around


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Here I go - wish me luck.


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## Steve7 (Dec 19, 2014)

Might mean I have to get up half an hour early at weekends... ;-)


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

MWJB said:


> Hello! ;-) Lazy brewing? They don't come much lazier than me!
> 
> I think the limiting factor will be whether the grind is so fine that you start seeing sediment in the cup, even a shade before this you might find the flavour muddying up a little, but folks do use "espresso" grind in a Clever.
> 
> ...


Can you define the muddling part a little please? And how - without a thermometer - would you get the brew water at the right temp (or shall I get a thermometer out!?!)


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Better than previous efforts! Still a bit rank but not terrible. Poured it at 24 minutes through a combination of impatience and resignation.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonc said:


> Can you define the muddling part a little please? And how - without a thermometer - would you get the brew water at the right temp (or shall I get a thermometer out!?!)


Muddling - dabbing & light stirring at the surface to wet the grinds & break up any dry clods, you're not trying to stir them in or sink them all, once wetted they'll all sink of their own accord. Be quick, ~10-20sec?

Temp - Water boils in kettle, fill brewer with preheat water, drain immediately, then add brew water & coffee. This should be pretty consistent, as should the temp at end. I mostly do this without a thermometer, temps given for completeness.

"A bit rank, not terrible" is not quite what we are shooting for ;-)


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

No quite. Dramatically better than previous. Not sure what to change!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jonc said:


> No quite. Dramatically better than previous. Not sure what to change!


Longer steep time ..


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Longer than 24m? You think it'll get better?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jonc said:


> Longer than 24m? You think it'll get better?


Grind dependent possbily

I ten to steep for 40 minutes in the Sowden for example , on a very fine grind indeed ..( currently one is say on the desk as we speak )

What is there to loose by trying


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> What is there to loose by trying


32g of rave coffee, 35 minutes and a tiny bit of my soul.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jonc said:


> 32g of rave coffee, 35 minutes and a tiny bit of my soul.


35 g of coffee , ( not much in pence it is really )

35 minutes ( do something else while you waiting )

A tiny bit of your soul ...( we are not taking photos here )


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You have ground the coffee, dosed & set ratio, added water pretty much as hot as is practical...other than insulating the brewer (michaelg uses a pair of woolly hats), the only thing left that you can change is the steep time.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Cheers folks! Love a good experiment.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

35m was actually better (at least in my mind!)


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