# Sage Dual Boiler - To Descale or Not?



## jerryseabridge (Dec 12, 2015)

Hi all

After many years of using and heavily modifying Gaggia SBDU Baby/Classics my curiosity has finally got the better of me and I snaffled up a secondhand refurbed/repaired Sage Dual (yes, from XSitems). I know the risks of buying secondhand and but am sufficiently skilled in diagnosing and repairing Gaggia units (albeit only SBDU ones) that I figured I'd take the risk, if only to get first hand experience of how the Sage DB works.

Anyways, the good news is that it appears to work fine. The case is in good condition, there are no signs of leaks, the pumps make the expected noises and it makes lovely coffee when paired with my K30. So far, so good.

Question: the "Descale" message appears on start up - no problem, I have plenty of experience of descaling - I live in Manchester, the water is very soft here so we get little scale build up, if at all - however since I don't know the machine's history I'm tempted to descale it... Having done plenty of research on the web it seems to me there's quite a risk of actually doing damage to the machine, given the number of examples of people experiencing problems (esp with the steam boiler element it seems).

Soooo, it's working perfectly well right now, I live in a very soft water area - would anyone care to advice me whether to go ahead with a descale or just leave it alone?

Thanks in advance.

Jerry


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

If it aint broke don't fix it. That means no leaks and working normally leave well enuff alone. Unless you have some reason/evidence to believe think it's heavily scaled and this in itself might be risking the heating elements.


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## jerryseabridge (Dec 12, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> If it aint broke don't fix it. That means no leaks and working normally leave well enuff alone. Unless you have some reason/evidence to believe think it's heavily scaled and this in itself might be risking the heating elements.


Yup, that's kinda what I was thinking.

With the Gaggia SBDUs small particles of scale could work themselves loose then out of the blue block up the solenoid etc so the general advice there was to descale regularly if in a hard water area. I dont know if the Sage has been used in a hard water area and I just wondered if these reports of descaling Sage machines resulting in further problems are considered common or if I'm being too cautious. Be interesting to see if any other folks offer other views but for now I'll leave well alone.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> If it aint broke don't fix it. That means no leaks and working normally leave well enuff alone. Unless you have some reason/evidence to believe think it's heavily scaled and this in itself might be risking the heating elements.


How often would you descale? I probably do mine every 3 months or so. I live in a soft water area


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## jerryseabridge (Dec 12, 2015)

urbanbumpkin said:


> How often would you descale? I probably do mine every 3 months or so. I live in a soft water area


And you've not experienced any of the problems other have reported when attempting a descale?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I live in a very soft water area too. Left it for 6 months and a descale altered the boiling noises significantly so now every 3 months. I set it for water one step harder than we should be getting. Mine's from XSItems too. First thing I did when I received it was to descale it - just in case.

Not broke so don't fix? It shouldn't be showing the descale message especially if it's a refurb. Pass on the ones they sell as used. They are told by some one ( Sage ?? ) which way units should be sold. If used you have 30 days to return it. If refurb you have 6 months refund or replace. They will pay shipping costs if there is a problem. My first one went ladies parts up on it's first power up. First thing I did on the 2nd one was to drain the tanks.

Descale problems on them are faults that shouldn't happen. People only hear about the ones that act up so I wouldn't read too much into reported problems. There was one version released that could burn out certain parts during descale but that was dropped quickly and some time ago- years. They probably behaved perfectly if used in the correct way.

The descaler they sell is a little more aggressive than the ones you probably used on your Gaggia.

The famous Valve error - that could have a relationship to the tank level sensing methods they use - likely from what I saw in one comment - not that the outlets are blocked by scale.

Steam heater coming on with no water in the tank or coming on and the tank not filling correctly - the one I had where that happen pump noises were clearly screwed up. The software release that could cause it - not many machines made and changed pretty quickly. I also think this may have only applied to a version that was only sold in the USA.








Up to you but I'd fix it. If a problem crops up as a result change it. Best do that now not later.








Boiling noises - scale stops heat getting into the water so efficiently so no scale produces "nicer" bubbling noises.

John

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## jerryseabridge (Dec 12, 2015)

ajohn said:


> I live in a very soft water area too. Left it for 6 months and a descale altered the boiling noises significantly so now every 3 months. I set it for water one step harder than we should be getting. Mine's from XSItems too. First thing I did when I received it was to descale it - just in case.
> 
> Not broke so don't fix? It shouldn't be showing the descale message especially if it's a refurb. Pass on the ones they sell as used. They are told by some one ( Sage ?? ) which way units should be sold. If used you have 30 days to return it. If refurb you have 6 months refund or replace. They will pay shipping costs if there is a problem. My first one went ladies parts up on it's first power up. First thing I did on the 2nd one was to drain the tanks.
> 
> ...


Thank John - I bought a used one - I know I'm taking a risk but I'm willing to chance it given it was relatively cheap and I like a challenge









As you say, I've got 30 days to return it if a descale goes wonky so I'll think it over and see how brave I'm feeling in a day or two - right now I'm enjoying the ease of the DB greatly (I love my modded-Gaggia Baby but it takes a lot more care and effort to use them to get a decent drink out them) and having done some side-by-side comparisons I believe the Sage gets more flavour out of my beans than the Gaggia rig did/does...

Jerry


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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

I have owned a Barista Express and currently own the Sage DB and have always descaled regularly, despite using Waitrose Lockhills water. I have owned my DB since January and have already descaled it twice. No problems so far, but would be interested to hear from someone more experienced if this is a bad idea. Sage customer service told me that most problems with the machines were caused by people NOT descaling!!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dumnorix said:


> I have owned a Barista Express and currently own the Sage DB and have always descaled regularly, despite using Waitrose Lockhills water. I have owned my DB since January and have already descaled it twice. No problems so far, but would be interested to hear from someone more experienced if this is a bad idea. Sage customer service told me that most problems with the machines were caused by people NOT descaling!!


Most problems with espresso machines are caused by bad water.....it's a subtle, but important difference.

What you were told is a bit like shutting the stable doors after the horses have bolted and then going to round them up...hoping you find them all and none got injured. Far better to make sure you shut the stable door before the horses go anywhere. Or it's a bit like using Insulin to control blood sugar in type 2 diabetes.....far better not to get diabetes in the first place. Insulin will control blood sugar, but the health problems type 2 causes still continue, even if you take insulin.

It's best for an espresso machine if you never have to descale. Vesuvius on 16 hours day, 365 days per year for over 4 years, no problems. Duetto on 16 hours per day, 365 days per year for 8-10 years, no problems, all my espresso machines, no problems. All because I use totally boiler safe water.

P.S. taking insulin when you don't need it isn't good for you and shutting the door constantly when you have no horses, simply wears out the mechanism and hinges faster!


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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Most problems with espresso machines are caused by bad water.....it's a subtle, but important difference.
> 
> What you were told is a bit like shutting the stable doors after the horses have bolted and then going to round them up...hoping you find them all and none got injured. Far better to make sure you shut the stable door before the horses go anywhere. Or it's a bit like using Insulin to control blood sugar in type 2 diabetes.....far better not to get diabetes in the first place. Insulin will control blood sugar, but the health problems type 2 causes still continue, even if you take insulin.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the information. So basically if I use bottled water such as Lockhills right from the start then I don't need to worry about descaling?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dumnorix said:


> Thanks for the information. So basically if I use bottled water such as Lockhills right from the start then I don't need to worry about descaling?


If Lockhills (I don't know it's composition) is boiler safe, then your statement would be correct. Deascaling regularly when you don't need to is like taking antibiotics daily in case you got a bacterial infection....it wouldn't be very good for you. Or turning the oven on each Sunday at 1pm in case you wanted to do a roast. I've always tried over the years to stress the issues of bad water and descaling to as many people as I can because these machines are expensive purchases.


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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

That's great, thanks. From reading other forum threads it seems that Lockhills is viewed as a good water to use in terms of boiler protection, as I am aware that some mineral waters are too hard so would cause similar problems to the tap water in some areas. As you say, having made a significant investment you want to do everything you can to look after your machine.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Hi I had the Sage Oracle for four months and loved it .. The machine broke at the second descale after following the instructions to the letter .. After waiting for a week and getting no reply I took the Machine back to Lakeland for a refund .. Afterwards I received this from Sage as a possible problem "The reason why I ask is if the valves are not released correctly or the machine is left for more than 20 minutes. It cause the machine to over heat and blow the thermal fuse causing the machine not to get up to temperature. "

I ve looked on line and the machine look a nightmare inside to fix

I wish the manufacturers or those selling these machine would give advice re good water..


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Most problems with espresso machines are caused by bad water.....it's a subtle, but important difference.
> 
> What you were told is a bit like shutting the stable doors after the horses have bolted and then going to round them up...hoping you find them all and none got injured. Far better to make sure you shut the stable door before the horses go anywhere. Or it's a bit like using Insulin to control blood sugar in type 2 diabetes.....far better not to get diabetes in the first place. Insulin will control blood sugar, but the health problems type 2 causes still continue, even if you take insulin.
> 
> ...


Well I'd love to know what good water is - I've been using only Tesco Asbeck - but there's definately signs of scale when I run a descale cycle...


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Oh dear, Tesco Ashbeck that's what I am using in my new machine on recommendation ..

i suppose it is a matter of degree .. I live in Sutton water area and Ashbeck is miles softer than my tap water .

Beeroclock how long do you leave between descale ?

when I've done a bit more research I will plumb the machine in with an in-line filter ...


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Nicknak said:


> Oh dear, Tesco Ashbeck that's what I am using in my new machine on recommendation ..
> 
> i suppose it is a matter of degree .. I live in Sutton water area and Ashbeck is miles softer than my tap water .
> 
> ...


I used Ashbeck on my machine for over 2 years. Minimal signs of scale, and nothing to worry about. And it was a Pro 700, Dual boiler, no draining valves, a pain in the neck to descale.

I was planning to descale my machine on the third year, but I have sold the machine since.

Also, apparently Ashbeck May not give the best taste if compared to Volvic for instance.

Some people argue that Askbeck alone may be detrimental to the boiler on the long run. (Too soft)

I actually logged my inspections on a thread:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-32554.html


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

Nicknak said:


> Oh dear, Tesco Ashbeck that's what I am using in my new machine on recommendation ..
> 
> i suppose it is a matter of degree .. I live in Sutton water area and Ashbeck is miles softer than my tap water .
> 
> ...


I've had the machine about 15months - and descaled twice...


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Medium roast steam

That is the machine I've got..

Thanks for that .. I will look that up.


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## jerryseabridge (Dec 12, 2015)

All - appreciate the responses guys!

I considered my options and on the basis that I do not know the provenance of the machine, to what extent there is a build up of scale in the boiler(s) and that XSItems offer a 30 day return with it, I decided to perform a de-scale.

In summary I successfully did a manual de-scale and there was very little evidence of any scale build up. HOWEVER I did encounter an issue which I'm interested to share to see if anyone else has experienced:

Initially I followed the de-scale instructions in the manual (which I had downloaded from Lakeland's website). According to the manual, when having held down the 1CUP button and pressed the POWER button and then selected dESc, when I press the MENU button it's supposed to display PUSH on the LCD and the POWER and MANUAL buttons light up - in my case all I got was the POWER button remained illuminated, the 1CUP button lit up and there was an audible "click" (presumably the OPV's solenoid getting power). I reset the machine and tried again but got the same result.

It was apparent the machine wasnt heating up at this point so, in spite of not getting the PUSH message the manual sets out, I went ahead and opened up the two descale screws then closed them once no more water ran into the drip tray, re-started it and it then automatically filled up with de-scalent from the water tank. I left it powered on for 20 mins at idle temp then repeated the previous steps to drain off the de-scalant, emptied and re-filled the water tank then restarted the machine and it all happily filled up with clean water and is now working fine.

Up shot is I think that's equivalent to the de-scaling process in the manual and the LCD is no longer nagging me to de-scale every time I start it up.

Anyone else experienced this apparent "non-standard" response when entering the descale function on this machine? I presume that after holding down the 1CUP button and pressing the POWER button that I am to take my finger off the buttons before using the UP key to select dESc and then pressing the MENU button to select it? Perhaps the machine I have is an older model and there is a different set of instructions I should be using?

Jerry


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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

According to my manual there is no mention of 'PUSH' being displayed. I have just tried it out on my machine- when I held down the 1CUP button and pressed the power button I was then able to select the dESc option. When I pressed the MENU button the display goes blank, there was the click you mentioned and then the 1CUP button lit up. I believe you are then meant to drain the boilers and when you have added the descaler to the water tank you press the 1CUP button and '20' will be displayed on the LCD screen- this is a 20 minute countdown, during which time the boilers will fill with the descaling solution. Therefore I don't think you have had a non-standard response, at least not according to my instructions!


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## jerryseabridge (Dec 12, 2015)

Dumnorix said:


> According to my manual there is no mention of 'PUSH' being displayed. I have just tried it out on my machine- when I held down the 1CUP button and pressed the power button I was then able to select the dESc option. When I pressed the MENU button the display goes blank, there was the click you mentioned and then the 1CUP button lit up. I believe you are then meant to drain the boilers and when you have added the descaler to the water tank you press the 1CUP button and '20' will be displayed on the LCD screen- this is a 20 minute countdown, during which time the boilers will fill with the descaling solution. Therefore I don't think you have had a non-standard response, at least not according to my instructions!


Really helpful response, many thanks - I found the manual online at https://www.lakeland.co.uk/content/documents/19340_Sage_Dual_Boiler_Instructions.pdf

I did wonder if it was for an older version - what you've written may confirm my suspicions. Next time I carry out a de-scale I'll follow the above steps.

any chance of you posting a scan of your manual - I've scoured the web but have only found online versions that mention the "PUSH" message being displayed?

Jerry


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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

Hi Jerry, this link is from the Sage website- https://www.sageappliances.com/content/dam/breville/gb/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES920-instruction-manual.pdf I have double checked and it's the same as my manual- also no mention of the "PUSH" message!


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## Deejaysuave (Jan 26, 2015)

Yeah there's definitely two versions of the manual floating around, the one above from Sage is correct.


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## jerryseabridge (Dec 12, 2015)

Dumnorix said:


> Hi Jerry, this link is from the Sage website- https://www.sageappliances.com/content/dam/breville/gb/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES920-instruction-manual.pdf I have double checked and it's the same as my manual- also no mention of the "PUSH" message!


Excellent - thank you so much. The version I got via Lakeland's website is dated 2013 and labelled "Issue = B13" - the one on the above link is dated 2015 and labelled "Issue = K15" so for a newer version of the machine I presume.

Jerry


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

@DavecUK 's post might be in need of a little more explanation. I understand he re mineralises water that has been purified with an reverse osmosis unit. That way it is possible to obtain water that wont produce scale as it has no temporary calcium hardness at any temperature. That's assuming it is a very efficient and fault free RO unit.

Sage try to get round the scaling problem by providing a hardness test strip for the DB that comes up with a number that's then entered into the machine. The machine then comes up with the descale message based on that number. It should work and may well do but for other factor - what descaler is used and also as some one mentioned on here how reliably the water people maintain their level of water hardness. If they are running short of water they may obtain more from sources that they don't normally use.







So maybe several tests could be in order. The descaling power of the various available descalers varies. Different sort of machine but this video shows the difference of 3 types pretty clearly






The main difference there is due to the the use of sulphamic acid in the one that is being advertised. The Sage descalers also contain some. Some people reckon citric acid is fine - it's cheap etc. It looks like another popular descaler from Puly doesn't use it either. Ideal for machines with aluminium boilers or thermoblocks as it wouldn't be a good idea to use any amount of sulphamic in those or significant amounts through the aluminium parts in a Sage grouphead but maybe the coating they use helps.

Bottled water isn't boiler safe so wont remove the need for descaling. It could be worth wondering about what descaler to use though. I did use Sage but following the recent price hike to obtain free postage wont be any more. Same with their old style filters.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

@ajohn what do you mean by, "bottled water isn't safe so won't reduce the need for descaling?"


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> @ajohn what do you mean by, "bottled water isn't safe so won't reduce the need for descaling?"


Perhaps you didn't read this



> If Lockhills (I don't know it's composition) is boiler safe


To be honest I have no idea what boiler safe could mean in practice either but one thing is clear bottled water wont remove the need for descaling.

John

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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ajohn said:


> Perhaps you didn't read this
> 
> To be honest I have no idea what boiler safe could mean in practice either but one thing is clear bottled water wont remove the need for descaling.
> 
> ...


You can't generalise bottled water.

If you check the mineral composition on the bottle, some of them are soft and some of them are hard.

Evian, for example, is very hard.

Ashbeck, is on the soft side

Volvic is ideal.

I've used Ashbeck for two years. Very little scale formed and no need for descaling. To be honest , descaling once in 3 years is not a bad thing.

In comparison, I used tap water on my Gaggia classic before. I had to descale once every month or so!

Before making statements as such it would be advisable to read about water quality. Lots of posts on this forum.

There are even ways to work out calcium hardness and alkalinity based on the water composition. I leave that up to you to research by googling a few keywords I mentioned above.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

I have owned a Sage Oracle , in my limited opinion they are delicate machines ,

(the amount of forum chat here and abroad helps me with my opinion..Many problems reported also after a descale)

They have small boilers and small bore pipe work .Any scale bits likely to block the machine..

if the water used in your kettle scales that up it will do that to your coffee machine

Coffee Classics the sage engineers suggest descaling every two months or more often and to not wait for the machine to tell you , there must be a reason for that .. ( also to change the water tank filter more regularly)

I now use filtered water in my kettle,it scales up a lot slower than tap water

I have used a strip tester and Ashbeck is a lot softer than my filtered tap water ..

Ashbeck will likely therefore take longer to cause scale in my coffee machine

All good news to me


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Nicknak said:


> I have owned a Sage Oracle , in my limited opinion they are delicate machines ,
> 
> (the amount of forum chat here and abroad helps me with my opinion..Many problems reported also after a descale)
> 
> ...


That is how I see it so no idea why some one suggested I should use google. I don't need to. I have spent a lot of time that way looking for problems on Sage machines. They are pretty rare actually where any details are given and even rare when they aren't.

I also live and always have lived in B'ham. Descaling is generally something I do not need to worry about at all. Then I bought a BE and found comments about thermoblock type machines and scale and thought from the sound of the machine I should give it some consideration. One idea was to use the kettle as a guide. Never descaled in several years of use by 3 people who are around all day and drink rather a lot, mostly tea especially me and my son. We all make one for ourselves when we feel like it. There were just a few very light patches of scale on hot spots over the concealed element. It took 45min for the usual fruit acid based descaler to remove it. I then dismissed the idea of using the kettle as an indicator and just descaled regularly. The kettle isn't a thermoblock and a small machine boiler with a small exposed element isn't either.

Then I changed to the DB and set the hardness one setting higher than we actually get. Descale came up after near 5 months of daily use machine averaging 3 to 4 power ups a day. I was rather surprised by the difference in the boiling noise that the descale made. Tempted to suggest that some one should google to find out why that might happen. It's pretty simple really. Just like kettles elements have hotter spots where the water boils off them leaving scale. This reduces the efficiency of the transfer of heat to the water. Then other areas scale up and so it goes on until the lot is covered and builds up further.on the way. How quickly depends on the hardness so yes if bottled is softer than some ones tap water it will take longer to scale up but that's not the same as removing the need for descaling.

Then comes the original question - the title of the thread. The longer some one leaves descaling the more likely it is that some flake of the stuff will block the drains. Nicknak's comment about every couple of months makes a lot of sense. Also using the correct type of descaler really. Sage use stainless boilers so don't have the problems some can have in that area. Their thermoblocks are stainless as well. It seems all are these days hence Durgol being around. I have seen another engineering comment about the valve error putting it down to the type of level sensing they use. Descaling may help that as well. There was also a DB released where the steam element could come on when the boiler was empty. Changed pretty quickly and suspect it never reached the UK. That might happen if the level sensing malfunctioned or the boilers didn't fill to the level they should going on the first refurb DB I had that at least blew it's thermal fuse on it's first power up. Given the racket the pumps made on the first fill perhaps I should have turned it off but who knows it might have done the same thing again afterwards or the fuse could already have blown. Chances are that the "fault" happened in transit as I am pretty sure that the sellers do check them.

There may be no need to use the filter when bottled water is used. That's going on a particular make of hot water dispenser that some have problems with. It holds a lot of water and if some one just made a few drinks a day it would take several to empty it. Strange taste put down to chlorine reacting with the plastic water tank which material wise is rather similar to Sage and some other makes. Filters also remove bits. I doubt if bottled water has any. The new Sage filter seems to be resin based. I would have thought that the older one was too small to do much in the softening line. A descale to the book needs that replacing every time anyway.







There was a post recently comparing the economics of the new filter against bottled water and regular descaling after a fashion. Use the filters which ever type - pass that's up to an individual to decide for themselves. Also how often they descale.

Maybe the best view is Sage machines have their great points and maybe some bad ones too but those don't seem to cause problems very often and in general they offer a lot for the outlay - it is easy to descale a DB for instance and most seem to reckon that they can all make great coffee.

Kettles - I worked in Bromsgrove. The office kettle ideally needed descaling every month or so. 8 engineers making a drink when ever they wanted one.







That's usually pretty often.

John

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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ajohn said:


> That is how I see it so no idea why some one suggested I should use google. I don't need to.


It was me. A few posts above you mentioned that you didn't know what boiler safe water was, and also said that bottled water would not remove the need for descaling. Yes, you are correct, but you can't generalise it, hence why I suggested you google up how to to determine whether bottled water is boiler safe or not. Use google, use yahoo, bing whatever, or even this forums search if you prefer it.

Also, i speak from experience using Ashbeck on my machine for two years. Very little scale not worth worrying about on an E61 machine. Other members of this forum have done the same, if not for longer. I am not just making assumptions or reporting what I read.

Anyway, the thread below has some insights on how to determine whether it's boiler safe or not. There are many others with more insightful info.

Good luck.

ECM Water Filter

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=6813&share_tid=43750&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D43750&share_type=t


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Perhaps you didn't read this
> 
> To be honest I have no idea what boiler safe could mean in practice either but one thing is clear bottled water wont remove the need for descaling.
> 
> ...


I am very confused. You have stated, 'bottled water isn't boiler safe'. Not 'possibly SOME bottled waters......'

Well, having spent hours researching this via the forum and other sources I am pretty sure the bottled water I use is just about as safe as possible for my machine - the only way to be absolutely safe would be to not use water at all ! I feel confident I will not need to do anything for at least 3 years when I will nip it back to Foundry for a service/check over. I will be sure to take photographs of any evidence to back up my assumptions (because that is what they are. I do not claim to know everything about water, scale, or anything).


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It was me. A few posts above you mentioned that you didn't know what boiler safe water was, and also said that bottled water would not remove the need for descaling. Yes, you are correct, but you can't generalise it, hence why I suggested you google up how to to determine whether bottled water is boiler safe or not. Use google, use yahoo, bing whatever, or even this forums search if you prefer it.
> 
> Also, i speak from experience using Ashbeck on my machine for two years. Very little scale not worth worrying about on an E61 machine. Other members of this forum have done the same, if not for longer. I am not just making assumptions or reporting what I read.
> 
> ...


Don't get me wrong. I have heard that Ashbeck will reduce the frequency of descaling. Also ideas about blending various things. My response was purely I do know about that.







I sometimes get a touch of irritation when people assume I don't so tend to give terse replies. We all have our faults but having been on this forum for as long as I have it would be hard to miss conversations on this subject.

My tap water hardness according to seventrent is 39ppm (2.72 Clark). I tried to get some definition of what they actually measured but failed. I assume it's total hardness. Ashbeck's numbers from this forum



> Tesco Ashbeck:
> 
> GH (general hardness): 35 - 55ppm
> 
> KH (carbonate hardness): 70 - 90 ppm


The test strip Sage provide also came up with a very low number. Scarcely 2 if i remember correctly but don't quote me. I set the DB for a higher number than the test strip suggested so was rather surprised that a descale after the message came up made a noticeably difference after around 5 months of use. They are noisy beasts. Big bubble sounds went and also as received steam was again available as soon as the brew was up to temperature. Not that this matters.

I don't want to be pedantic but if for some Ashbecks reduces descale at some usage level to 3 years it as mentioned doesn't remove the need to descale. I would personally also bear in mind that I am using a Sage machine but to elaborate I would need to check on what my Piccino actually does in certain areas. On the other hand I have descaled at the point Sage suggest after a fashion even though I am using rather soft water. I'm not prepared to assume that they are wrong.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Don't get me wrong. I have heard that Ashbeck will reduce the frequency of descaling. Also ideas about blending various things. My response was purely I do know about that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So you set the descale warning at a different setting to what sage suggest for your water hardness & simultaneously descale at the point sage suggest? How do you know how long to leave the descale warning light on for before descaling?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> So you set the descale warning at a different setting to what sage suggest for your water hardness & simultaneously descale at the point sage suggest? How do you know how long to leave the descale warning light on for before descaling?


I just did it within a day of the warning message showing. As it took 5 months to come on extending it by several days isn't going to make much difference. I set slightly harder because I could see no harm in doing that and as one poster mentions descaling does at time result in problems occurring. There aren't many reports about on that happening though. Also as a water engineer mentioned the company that supplies me does abstract a certain amount of water from other areas at times however the hardness they quote should I'd hope be a long term average. I also live in older B'ham, the part that has been around for a long time, could be that abstraction is applied in other areas. No way of knowing.

So why would problems crop up in descaling? I suspect that there are 2 reasons but will stick to the obvious one that could cause the dreaded valve error. Scale blocking the boiler drain valves. It could be that machines that have this problem haven't bean descaled often enough. I've seen comments that it can sometimes be cured by opening the steam boiler drain when the machine has heated up in it's normal mode. Lot more pressure and steam comes out. I suspect it's safe to ignore the 3rd possible reason for problems - software balls up that could cause problems on one version of the DB 'cause I don't think it was ever sold in the UK. Not many where made compared with the rest anyway.

There is another factor as well. It's tedious to do but a Sage machine does not need a so called engineering descale which might even involve removing the boilers. Many espresso machines do not offer the ability for descaling easily. Sage does. The way I do it with 2 flushes takes about 1hr. I do it while watching the telly in the evening. Basically it's not a big deal unlike many other machines. The only Sage engineering descale is called a repair.

LOL It gets worse. I've fitted a different shower screen. While descaling I notice during a flush that it seemed to be interfering with the brew tank drain - lot slower to drain so I did another full descale with it off. It seems Sage tell people to descale the steam wand if they have steam problems. On the first descale I tried that and also did when I descaled when the machine arrived as it was refurbished. Some sort of joke as next to nothing came out. We have been on holiday and I am queasy about leaving water that is going to be drunk lying around so swilled the water tank out and thought may as well drain the boilers as well - easy to do in descale mode. I needn't have let the water heat up but did and also opened the steam valve and lo out came weak steam. Descaling that makes a lot more sense now and i can only put it down to double descaling. I can only guess but it's a refurbished machine. May have been returned due to scale problems or what ever. It seems that there was enough scale or something or the other about that a single descale didn't remove. Perhaps it hadn't been done often enough previously. No way of knowing or maybe the engineering comment - every 2 months is correct.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Descaling the oddest thing about coffee machine ownership....I was thinking this whilst looking at my big 200ml syringe and tube....which I mainly use to suck the shite out of new machine boilers before testing. Saves a lot of flushing. There is perhaps 1 bottled water I can immediately think of (I think it's the volcanic stuff), that's probably fairly boiler safe if the manufacturers blurb is to be believed. Ashbeck looks good with it's 50 ish hardness. One thing that's important to remember, if we consider 250 quite hard and 350+ to be really hard and we know this kills espresso machines really quickly.....it's only a factor of 5 or 7 over Ashbeck. Theoretically a machine used in London for 2 to 4 years without descaling is almost certain to develop a scale related problem, using Ashbeck might push that out to say 10 - 20 years. It won't eliminate it. These times all change on use, the example would be a lightly used machine. HX might be faster, dual boiler might be slower and it depends on how you use the machine as a kettle, or not.

So yes light descaling every so often even when using Ashbeck is advisable...for light users perhaps every 2 years, for heavier users perhaps annually. You get less problems and a better result if you don't leave it too long. If you want to eliminate scaling entirely, then there are a few options such as Water Softener, bottled distilled water (not deionised that's different), Reverse Osmosis. Our perception of taste is heavily influenced by Ions and non scaling ones can be added back to RO. On machines where scaling is completely eliminated, the tendency is for very few problems. The worst water to use is tap water, unless it's super soft and even then tap water has so much other stuff in it that affects taste and causes deposits (especially on valve seals) as well..

My own favoured method is to start clean and build the water back to what I need with non scaling Ions (55 - 70ppm TDS meter) and a pH of about 7


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If I wanted to do something about it I'd go @DaveUK 's way. Only difference is I'd be inclined to use a tanked RO unit and do the entire house for drinking water. They can be obtained for about £100 or so. Some filters need changing periodically - around 6 months and aren't that expensive. The actual RO unit should last for several years. I posted details of one recently that appears to include some form or remineralisation cartridge. As odd as it may sound it's not a good idea to drink water that is very pure. Deionised for instance is a complete and utter no no. Water is odd stuff, it doesn't like being pure and to a limited extent will take up quantities of all sorts including what is needed to keep our bodies going when it's inside us. Maybe adding coffee stops that but who knows.

I do use my machine as a kettle so it's not unusual for the tank to be filled up daily. I see that as being preferable to having to disinfect the tank from time to time. This is probably why my machine only took 5 months to come up with the descale message. Why keep the water turning over like this - comes from a lot of caravanning when my son was younger. In that area some people stick a pill into the water to prevent problems







I did for a while and then switched to more regular swilling and filling - daily.

John

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