# A fools guide to extraction



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am that fool.....I am just trying get my mind around extraction and grinders and the like. If you prepare a shot in your usual way, without altering any part, then extract it and let's say the result is 3% (it could be anything) then you are left showing that there is room for improvement.

What would the next step be and why? (please)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You would grind finer to lift the extraction. Not changing any other parameters, until you perhaps hit a ceiling that was preventing you from hitting a good flavour.

I know "3%" was just figure plucked from thin air, but assuming your shot look like your other shots and you had a reasonable amount in the cup, you have ground the beans, it would be much higher than this, a typical range of extraction might span 10%, from maybe 14-24% depending on your set up.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Keeping all other variables constant - dose weight, grind etc - shaking the dose vigorously to ensure even distribution of grinds will help evenness of extraction (avoid channelling) and boost extraction yield if previous efforts are producing under-extraction.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Patrick, don't forget your toy, next time! Be interested too see, how a blind approach to what you think is a good cuppa actually measures out


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Extraction yield preferences were established in blind testing.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Extraction yield preferences were established in blind testing.


appreciate that, but point being made is how far away is what one might consider to be their best shot from the data the scientific approach will judge it by


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> appreciate that, but point being made is how far away is what one might consider to be their best shot from the data the scientific approach will judge it by


Well, there are a few misconceptions about extraction yield...there is no right one. There are peaks & troughs of preference (for say a different grinder), but areas of poor flavour in between. Low brew ratios might see you hit tasty shots at 12-14%EY at 16 to less than 18% they might be sharp & tart (but dark roasts are less objectionable than light/medium), generally the "big hump" (sweetest, most complex) is 18%-22%-ish & needs longer ratios. Sure, you can dial in by taste & hit region that you like, but if you have never hit the big hump, how would you know you didn't like it more?

The science has been done (testing & identifying), making the shot itself is more like engineering it to be consistent, or to shift your average.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Patrick, don't forget your toy, next time! Be interested too see, how a blind approach to what you think is a good cuppa actually measures out


noted


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

David, you are not straying into boffin territory here are you?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

drip, drip, drip!!


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Well, there are a few misconceptions about extraction yield...there is no right one. There are peaks & troughs of preference (for say a different grinder), but areas of poor flavour in between. Low brew ratios might see you hit tasty shots at 12-14%EY at 16 to less than 18% they might be sharp & tart (but dark roasts are less objectionable than light/medium), generally the "big hump" (sweetest, most complex) is 18%-22%-ish & needs longer ratios. Sure, you can dial in by taste & hit region that you like, but if you have never hit the big hump, how would you know you didn't like it more?
> 
> The science has been done (testing & identifying), making the shot itself is more like engineering it to be consistent, or to shift your average.


Sorry to hijack the thread but...

So without the 'tools' to measure EY (yet!) how would I try and hid hit the magic hump?

Do I go longer and longer until it tastes crap, and then back down again?

But having a an L1 limits the amount of water I can push through...

So will a 1:3 ratio at different doses taste and measure different - all things being equal?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MarkyP said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread but...
> 
> So without the 'tools' to measure EY (yet!) how would I try and hid hit the magic hump?
> 
> ...


Grind finer until the shots are sweet & balanced, when they start getting smokey & drying edge back coarser. Don't start edging coarser at the first signs of dryness/bitterness, you can hit this at very low extractions, or at extractions bordering the lower side of the big hump.

A 1:3 ratio at the same extraction will measure the same EY at different doses, but the doses themselves might limit your ability to hit certain EY's (too high/low a dose may make it harder to keep extraction up). Tasting the same isn't so much the idea, it's not a taste-o-meter, it measures the proportion of dose that makes it into the cup, which in turn has a correlation to flavour balance (sour/sweet/drying), rather than a map to strawberry/chocolate/nuts etc.

It's an objective measure of the cup itself about the only one that tells anything more than weight & temp. We objectively measure lots of things before the cup is actually produced, to me, it makes sense to measure the result of the process too.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

So if maximum taste is my goal what should be my first steps?

Steadily increase the brew ratio until I find something I like and then grind finer until I hit bitter, or do I grind finer and finer until I hit something I like and then increase the brew ratio until I hit bitter?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MarkyP said:


> David, you are not straying into boffin territory here are you?


God, I hope not! That said, if science can prove that my coffee can be substantially better, who knows


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> God, I hope not! That said, if science can prove that my coffee can be substantially better, who knows


Amen to that!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

We're not looking for maximum taste, e.g. as much of everything that we can pull out of the coffee, we're looking for balance with the least objectionable sourness & bitterness, hopefully, there lies sweetness if that's your thing, it might be brightness?

Brew ratio is a guide to shot strength & at typical double doses, mouthfeel (not measurable by extraction yield). So, if 1:2 shots give you the mouthfeel & intensity you like, stick there for a bit, grinding finer...if you don't get past sourness, try dropping the dose a little, still doesn't work pull longer.

You could really do it either way (grind the same & pull longer) or a combination, but the longer the shots the less intense (weaker) they will be at the same EY & it's easier to spot trends just adjusting one parameter at a time.

Forget "hitting bitter", it's not useful, there are different kinds of bitterness, they don't all relate to over-extraction. You might possibly hit it, but under-extraction is the most likely problem.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

grind finer and presumably the shot takes longer to extract.....so, I usually judge things for 25 to 30 seconds....should i forget about time and simplykeep on going till the desired weight is reached. Obviously that goes without saying that there are boundaries but I have never been one who particularly worried if the shot took 35 to 40 seconds if it tastes right


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> God, I hope not! That said, if science can prove that my coffee can be substantially better, who knows


Don't know why you keep calling it "science"? You have a machine that was designed & engineered, as was your grinder, you can measure your tamper diameter & weight, none of these things are any more/less science based. You take your dose then you design how much to take from it (extraction, measured, or not) then you check the result, like you might use a tape measure or a tyre pressure gauge.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> grind finer and presumably the shot takes longer to extract.....so, I usually judge things for 25 to 30 seconds....should i forget about time and simplykeep on going till the desired weight is reached. Obviously that goes without saying that there are boundaries but I have never been one who particularly worried if the shot took 35 to 40 seconds if it tastes right


If you are brewing by ratio, yes, you keep going until you hit that weight, then you taste/measure & decide what to do next. Record the time, but don't kill the shot by time.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

So, does the ratio steer the taste as well?

or is the ratio just for strength and mouthfeel?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MarkyP said:


> So, does the ratio steer the taste as well?
> 
> or is the ratio just for strength and mouthfeel?


Strength & mouthfeel. You can brew 2 representative cups of coffee, one (espresso) ten times the strength of the other (drip), they might not taste exactly the same but those good cups can fall in similar range of EYs.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Strength & mouthfeel. You can brew 2 representative cups of coffee, one (espresso) ten times the strength of the other (drip), they might not taste exactly the same but those good cups can fall in similar range of EYs.


Thanks Mark,

I'm a little confused now!

I thought we lengthened the shot to increase the EY?

and that higher EY is a guide to a sweet tasting shot?

Given that I always drink flat white's and that mouthfeel isn't an issue, and maximum sweetness is my ultimate goal!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

At a certain grind, for a certain method, yes, you push more water through the puck/bed to raise extraction. Or, *at the same brew ratio*, you grind finer. look at grind as a route to hitting an EY (let's say 20%EY for argument's sake) relative to the size of the drink...finer = shorter drinks, coarser = longer drinks.

You can extract up to 30% of a coffee bean by some methods, this will almost always taste awful. So you're only trying to extract "higher" if you are in the low region to start with (which most people who don't measure, probably are).


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

With my EK, and the beans I try, I'm often limited in the grind adjustment, in that I just can't go fine enough... It's useful to know that I can try and push the ratio out to try and find that sweet spot!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Have you tried shaking up the dose before dumping into the basket?


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Have you tried shaking up the dose before dumping into the basket?


Funnily enough I had a great shot this morning after doing that but I haven't been able to replicate it since... It was the last of a bag and I also upped the dose from 18g to 19g (ish) as well (I know, don't change too many things!)

I've had a change of beans since then to muck everything up!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Shaking up the dose can make a difference especially when you're on the edge with some lighter roasts on the EK with coffee burrs.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

This from the prophet Perger at BaristaHustle:


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

MarkyP said:


> With my EK, and the beans I try, I'm often limited in the grind adjustment, in that I just can't go fine enough... It's useful to know that I can try and push the ratio out to try and find that sweet spot!


Aligned my Burrs yesterday after many months of having similar issue.

I now almost choke my machine on finest grind with merely a flat tamp. No nutating.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

That is interesting... perhaps I should give that a go...

Out of interest what burrs are you running?


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

The new style coffee burrs.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@MarkyP Remind me best style roasts you are drinking ... I know Graham prefers a lighter roast can remember what you like


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

to be honest I just enjoy coffee!!

My better half prefers the darker, chocolatey beans, but I've got a fortnightly IMM sub and I enjoy those too!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MarkyP said:


> to be honest I just enjoy coffee!!
> 
> My better half prefers the darker, chocolatey beans, but I've got a fortnightly IMM sub and I enjoy those too!


Fair enough asked as if using darker roast stuff I wouldn't expect you to be at zero for it . The IMM stuff would be closer to zero . But at 8 bar I can dose 19g and pull long shots time wise ( with vst and a flat tamp ) . Have you cleaned the burrs and re zerod recently .


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

yeah, I did a clean and re-zero when I moved the grinder into it's new home last week...


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Take off the burrs and mark them up with a sharpie. Make the burrs chirp quite loudly and check markings to indicate where contact is made. Where there is still ink, place some thin paper at the back of the burr. I used the adhesive section of an envelope as it held position nicely. Re-do the sharpie process on both burrs until all is in symmetry.

It's a long process but well worth it. Mine were quite close and only had to be corrected at 10 o'clock position.

Ensure the front carrier is tightened really well.

Enjoy your new grind settings.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There is a visual guide on grindscience I think courtesy of @Xpenno


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Barista Hustle also includes a guide.


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

Thanks Guys, I'll take a look!


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

gman147 said:


> Aligned my Burrs yesterday after many months of having similar issue.
> 
> I now almost choke my machine on finest grind with merely a flat tamp. No nutating.


Also just done this recently. Big improvement. It takes a considerable amount of time, say a whole afternoon but it is well worth it.

Get it done.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Are these ek's you're shimming?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

oursus said:


> Are these ek's you're shimming?


Yep... to be fair @Xpenno checked mine and jeebsy's and neither needed anything shimming .. so it doesn't follow that it will need doing


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yep... to be fair @Xpenno checked mine and jeebsy's and neither needed anything shimming .. so it doesn't follow that it will need doing


Yeah, only like any other piece of engineering...with the cost of those burrs, you wouldn't begrudge a mechanic an hr's labour to fit a car part of the same cost


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

Just as a reference as to where I am on the dial for 19.3g for around mid 40s output after calibration vs before when I was almost at zero.

Just shows it very much worth doing.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yep... to be fair @Xpenno checked mine and jeebsy's and neither needed anything shimming .. so it doesn't follow that it will need doing


Just to add some more info here. After checking Martin and Will's EK43s, I came to the conclusion that my pre breaker was not right. I had shimmed my burrs to get them pretty well aligned but it had been eating away at me that something wasn't right, especially given that two others bought at the same time did not require shimming. Also the pre breaker didn't slide of and off the shaft easily and required tools and reasonable amount of force and this had been the case since day 1.

When I cleaned it last I did a visual inspection and could actually see the burr carrier and burr wobble during a single rotation.

Anyway, I finally ordered a new pre breaker and fitted this morning. It went on ask expected, with no force required and manually rotating did not result in any visible movement.

Just my experience but as MK say, if you need to shim the ek then something else is wrong and it certainly looks like this was the case here also. Its early days and like owning a new grinder at the moment so I can't comment as to if things have improved from a taste perspective. More to follow....


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## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

I'd also add that it's imperative to ensure tensions are identical on all the screws. Found this out the hard way when testing with the sharpie. Spent much longer than necessary as was sloppy with my tightening.


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