# Profitec 400



## Rolo (Feb 6, 2016)

Does anyone know much about the new Profitec 400? any ideas as to how it might compare to the Rocket Appartamento.


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

I noticed it arrived at Bella Barrista for pre order which prompted me to look for some reviews. There are some You Tube videos but I think they're in German which I watched without understanding a word. I find it staggering the main feature pushed is the ability to change a coloured disk, must say the steam and water knobs have to be the worst thing about it, they look just like the valves on my plumbing up in the loft. That apart, in one of the videos the cover comes off and it looks so well designed and well made, if it wasn't designed on CAD then it was one very well organised mind. Comparing with the Mara that looks like someone had a lot of bits and connected it all up as they went along. German v Italian ? The engineering is beautiful. The manual is available to download from the web site but like you I'd like to see some reviews. I wonder if it will work like other Profitec machines and will involve lots of flushes and drawing off water and waiting for steam, I am rather sold on the ease of use of the Mara and it is 38mm shorter on the worktop than the Profitec.
I notice BB have another machine the VMB Junior 2 boilers which again there's little information on. Curious that prices of the Mara X seem to have dropped back to under £1000. Somewhere I saw a link to Mara X and Bianca in black and cream that had a whopping increase in price for a paint job, they looked awful.


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## Rolo (Feb 6, 2016)

Thanks for your observations. I have owned ECM and Rocket machines in the past and have never had issues with ECM. I have with Rocket. I have a friend who has a Lelit machine and he is pleased with it but I don't think the build quality was in the same league as ECM / Profitec. I need a small machine now due to space in my kitchen. I have asked for recommendations from Bella Barista on various machines and they are pointing towards the profitec. In terms of my investment most of these machines in that price bracket will make good espresso, so for me it boils down to size, build quality and reliability.


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

I'm looking for the same as you but I would add ease of use. The regular box would meet all the requirements but I don't have the palate to recognise the couple of degrees temperature difference you might get with the E61 and pressing buttons isn't going to give the same satisfaction as moving levers and twiddling knobs and a box just doesn't have the looks. The Mara X does score highly on ease of use and the smaller footprint but there seems to be questions about leaky drip trays, poor gaskets on fittings, awful feet and my wife would not be happy if I gouged the corian. I looked at the German? video again and the build quality is just so much better than Lelit for a few hundred more. I'll wait for some reviews, my Barista Express is still working but I have promised myself a nice machine, spending the kids inheritance.


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## Rolo (Feb 6, 2016)

Good luck, I wish you well


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

I'm loving the differing views on what some like on a machine (or not), be it visually or practically (levers/toggles vs knobs)...it's good that we all don't find the same machine/s appealing otherwise we would all end up with the same rubber-stamped-machine.

One persons "dream machine" is another persons "dogs dinner"


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## Rolo (Feb 6, 2016)

Rincewind said:


> I'm loving the differing views on what some like on a machine (or not), be it visually or practically (levers/toggles vs knobs)...it's good that we all don't find the same machine/s appealing otherwise we would all end up with the same rubber-stamped-machine.
> 
> One persons "dream machine" is another persons "dogs dinner"


Very true


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

After a visit to Bella Barista to compare the Mira X and the 400 I bought a 400 despite the £300 difference. I'm going to be looking at this for a good many years and side by side the 400 looked a better build quality, the larger feet and smaller drip tray alter the proportions which to me makes it look better. With Corian worktops and the X's reputation for gouging worktops the feet were an important consideration, I have fitted some ptfe gliders to the 400 but a hand on the drip tray stops it moving when using the portafilter.
Though I've had an espresso machine of some description since the 80's, never an E61, it's not a hobby, I just want a reasonable coffee at home with minimum faff, my palate isn't good enough to tell what temperature it's been brewed at it's either awful, OK, Good or very rare, excellent so that's where I'm coming from, probably not the same as most here.
Before I purchased I would have liked to have known more about the 400 so hope this helps anyone else thinking about them. Hopefully there will be some proper on line reviews before too long by people that know what they're talking about.
What appealed about the X was the walk up and pull, no flushes. Thanks to Dave Corbey everyone understands how the X works, there's no information about the 400. You can switch on pre infusion, the X seems to be a slow ramp up, the 400 pushes water in at 0.4 bar, stops, pressure falls, then it builds up to the 10 bar on the gauge. I've no idea if that's better or worse, I doubt I'd be able to notice a difference. The 400 has three boiler temperature settings, these equate to a brewing temperature of 90, 94 and 98. From Dave Corbeys write ups I surmise that the 400 temperature management is not as precise as the X. On the lowest setting, the pressure is about 1 bar, there is no need to flush, there's adequate steam for a latte or two mugs of hot chocolate, the pressure falls but builds up rapidly once you stop steaming. At the middle setting about 1.2 bar there is some steam so a small flush, at the third setting, the pressure is 1.5 bar and there's a fair bit of steam and gurgling so definitely a flush. It's a home machine, I'm never going to be making more than 4 drinks at a time so while there's no steam boost like the X I don't suppose it will ever cause me any problems.You can move the temperature setting while in use and the change in pressure up or down is quick. I'm not having much luck with microfoam but think that's my technique, it was fine at Bella Barista.
I think the warm up of the 400 is possibly quicker than the X, it has a smaller boiler after all. For a hot chocolate in the evening when all I want is steam it's very quick. My morning coffee uses about 0.4kw the evening chocolate 0.2 kw, when left running it doesn't seem to use a great deal.
I believe like the X it recycles most of the OPV back to the tank, there is very little water in the drip tray after making coffee.
I've paired this with a Niche Zero, I've found it much easier weighing beans once rather than the portafilter two or three times, also zero mess.
This replaces a Barista Express and in truth apart from the warm up this takes no more time to make a coffee and lever and knobs are rather more satisfying than pressing a button. Cups warm up properly too.
Things I preferred about the X, the baskets, the oversized basket it comes with, ability to use a filter in the tank, price. Not sure whether better temperature management and the steam boost would make any difference to me but they are selling points.


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## Rolo (Feb 6, 2016)

I have the same set up and am enjoying it very much. I did get a 4 hole steam tip and that makes such a difference.

Pleased you chose the Profitec. I have the same set up. I have changed the steam tip to a 4 hole one and unleashed the potential of the machine. Really enjoying it


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## PhilipUrquiza (6 mo ago)

Would you tell us more about the temperature management of the machine? How is your experience with it when repeatability is concerned and when dialing in new beans? 
thanks


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

PhilipUrquiza said:


> Would you tell us more about the temperature management of the machine? How is your experience with it when repeatability is concerned and when dialing in new beans?
> thanks


Can't really help you with that, I don't have a sophisticated palate and know next to nothing about the intracies of coffee, I have found it very easy to dial in the beans and use, after a few days I'm producing coffee that I enjoy and that's all I ask of it. It's more consistent and much better than my results from the Barista Express but that might have quite a lot to do with the grinder and the E61 having everything including cups at a much better temperature than the Sage would ever manage unless you ran lots of water through the head.


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

Whole Latte Love have just published a video on YouTube


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## Beetleything (8 mo ago)

yeah looks interesting


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Only 9 inches wide...brilliant


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## PhilipUrquiza (6 mo ago)

@SurreyAlan How is your experience on back to back shots? Do you have any difficulties? How long between one shot and the next one? Thanks!


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## Beetleything (8 mo ago)

SurreyAlan said:


> Can't really help you with that, I don't have a sophisticated palate and know next to nothing about the intracies of coffee, I have found it very easy to dial in the beans and use, after a few days I'm producing coffee that I enjoy and that's all I ask of it. It's more consistent and much better than my results from the Barista Express but that might have quite a lot to do with the grinder and the E61 having everything including cups at a much better temperature than the Sage would ever manage unless you ran lots of water through the head.


Might be time to step up your game now you moved from a sporty fiesta to a faster car - a la Porsche/lotus. After all you are on here and there is a ton of info about brew temps etc.. the machine does a pre infusion - which was a huge improvement in my coffee brewing ( via a La Pavoni ) - it made my coffee's taste way better and got rid of sour coffee's. That's just one thing it does.


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

PhilipUrquiza said:


> @SurreyAlan How is your experience on back to back shots? Do you have any difficulties? How long between one shot and the next one? Thanks!


No real experience of that beyond when I was dialling in and in the time it takes me to weigh and grind the beans the pressure and so the temperature has recovered. It seems to be steaming where the pressure goes down rather than brewing even then the pressure builds back rapidly. It is a small domestic machine and for that scenario I can't imagine it will have difficulties, the most I'll ever do at one time would be four.


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

But this morning I finally managed to froth the milk properly and almost produced something like latte art, always thought it was me rather than the machine.


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## JesmondJester (Feb 2, 2020)

Late to the party here but have been deliberating over the MaraX or the 400 and these reviews are selling me the 400. 
There is something about the MaraX I have never been quite sure about - too complicated maybe? Teething problems? 

The 400 in comparison looks like a relatively simple machine that can give me the the best chance at making better coffee.
This is all on but feel of course and bear in mind I am coming from a second hand, Gaggia New Baby so anything is going to be better!
The fact I have a Niche too, seeing the pictures above and hearing how the pairing works so well is also something drawing me in. (I appreciate people pair the Mara and a Niche too but I am now consciously biased!)

Is there anything you _don’t_ like about the 400? Any problems or niggles?

Other than wanting different knobs or discs?


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

On another forum I said I thought the 400 looked better made and was asked why, as I went on holiday never got around to answering that but was very tempted to say because it was so much shinier and when I picked them both up it felt heavier. Before I got to these two I considered many other machines but for a number of reasons ended up with these. Though in coffee machine terms they're both fairly cheap I wanted to see them in the flesh before parting with what I consider to be serious money. There are videos where you can see the internals, the 400 is similar in layout to most other Profitec machines and I describe it as Germanic, it's ordered, tidy, neat. The Lelit I describe as Italian. The Lelit comes with a much better accessory pack than the 400, it has the ability to use a filter in the tank, from what I've read and seen I suspect it's better at temperature control and has a steam boost. It has a larger boiler. Watch Lelit Insider on You Tube and there's a video for fixing just about anything that can go wrong and I suspect apart from the controller you could always fix it up with a generic part if you couldn't source the genuine bit from Lelit. The 400 has a much smaller boiler which means a much quicker warm up though I suppose it means you can't pull as many shots though in use it recovers very quickly, it's usually only me and the most I've had to do at one time is three.. The 400 has a three position temperature switch, lowest you never need to flush, middle maybe if you leave it a long time, high you will. I think I recall a video that showed it was consistent.

Things that put me off the X were the look, side by side the 400 looks much better, yes it's shinier but proportions with the feet to me looked a lot better. The X has tiny rubber feet that can come off, if I gouged our Corian I'd be in the doghouse so I'd have to change the feet on the X but that makes it taller and I think then you'd have to pull it out every time you wanted to add water (my clear height is 480mm). I did put some ptfe 25mm diameter gliders from B&Q on the 400. The X drip tray is massive but it has some little rubber bumpers to negotiate when you put it back in and I wondered how long they would last and would it be an irritant getting past them. The tray of the X won’t scratch unlike the shiny tray of the 400. The bits the steam and water knobs attach to looked chunkier on the 400. The 400 is built off a chassis the X isn’t and has reinforcing plates as necessary, I thought the chassis was better. As I will be living with and looking at this for some years how it looked did come into the decision. The X has a massive distance between tray and portafilter, the 400 not, you can get a scale and a small cup in with a wiggle so I use a ECM bottomless.

If you’re into that you can fit a profiling paddle to both, but confession time. I just want to get up, make a coffee, enjoy it with some toast. I don’t have the sensitivity to get all these chocolately caramel etc flavours the roaster tells me about, it’s either a good coffee or not, it’s not a hobby or a calling as it is for many here, I just want to enjoy a coffee without too much faff. If you can tell the difference if your coffee comes out a degree or so different then maybe the X is better though a machine with a PID and digital controls might be better still. I’m sure both machines can produce decent coffee and perhaps the real determinant is the grinder.

On the steaming front the 400 has no problem steaming milk for two hot chocolates, I have been very unsuccessful at microfoam, I was recommended a 4 hole tip but that didn’t help, I do suspect it is technique as now and again I seem to manage it.

Returning to quality, I think on here there’s a post of a Profitec delivered with a gouge out of the group head and appalling panel fit, mine came with a cup holder where the welding had come unstuck but Bella Barista had a replacement in the hands of a courier within hours and it arrived next day so I expect both makes have their share of problems.

Though I've had coffee machines since the 80's (my first Gaggia is in the loft) this is my first E61 and the gurgles, rumbles and drips coming from various places was strange at first. With my one a day habit I was told I only needed to backflush with cleaner and lubricate every six months, I backflush with clean water regularly but only take the screen off now and again only to find it's hardly dirty at all. I have a Niche Zero and I don't think making a coffee takes any longer than it did on my previous Barista Express.

At the moment there’s not much difference in price, both are good machines so it is a personal preference. While at Bella Barista I did look at the Bianca, too large for my kitchen and features I'd never use but for the enthusiast it offered a lot for the money and looked better put together than the X.


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## JesmondJester (Feb 2, 2020)

SurreyAlan said:


> If you’re into that you can fit a profiling paddle to both, but confession time. I just want to get up, make a coffee, enjoy it with some toast. I don’t have the sensitivity to get all these chocolately caramel etc flavours the roaster tells me about, it’s either a good coffee or not, it’s not a hobby or a calling as it is for many here, I just want to enjoy a coffee without too much faff. If you can tell the difference if your coffee comes out a degree or so different then maybe the X is better though a machine with a PID and digital controls might be better still. I’m sure both machines can produce decent coffee and perhaps the real determinant is the grinder.


This all day for me. I would describe this as my hobby but let’s face it, I am going from a £30, second-hand, ten year old machine to something costing near enough a grand (a significant amount of cash for me) so I am going to see a huge difference.

I might struggle to tell the difference if I brewed at different temperatures but the temp of water coming through the group of my Gaggia varies _so_ significantly it makes a real difference. That plus the pre-infusion, steam power and hot water - heaven. 

I am the only one that drinks coffee in my house so it’s a milk drink to start the day, long Black or Americano mid morning and espresso at lunch. When people visit I might make two drinks in a row - this should do everything I need. 

My main concern is the gap between porterfilter and drip tray but the solutions are there so….

I really appreciate the detailed reply, thank you. 

Now, if I could just find someone in Tyneside who has one that I could have a peek at….


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## shahmhd (4 mo ago)

Hi- I have recently purchased the machine and I have noticed that the pressure during the shot (around 35-40 seconds in total) losing around 2 bars of pressure. Is this normal? I am using fresh coffee from two different local roasters and finding that it’s the same for both bags of coffee. Also the flow doesn’t really change significantly. Any help would be appreciated.


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

shahmhd said:


> Hi- I have recently purchased the machine and I have noticed that the pressure during the shot (around 35-40 seconds in total) losing around 2 bars of pressure. Is this normal? I am using fresh coffee from two different local roasters and finding that it’s the same for both bags of coffee. Also the flow doesn’t really change significantly. Any help would be appreciated.


I haven't noticed that on mine but usually paying attention to the scales and timer, I'll look next time. You could put the blind basket in and see if the pressure drops with that if not then I would think it's not the machine


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## shahmhd (4 mo ago)

SurreyAlan said:


> I haven't noticed that on mine but usually paying attention to the scales and timer, I'll look next time. You could put the blind basket in and see if the pressure drops with that if not then I would think it's not the machine


Thank you for your reply- please do let me know when you next make a drink. 
I have put the blind basket and tested and the gauge is consistent at 10 bar so there’s no issues there.


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

Bearing in mind I know next to nothing about coffee machines logic would suggest there's no pressure loss in the machine so it must be in the portafilter probably as water finds it way through the grounds, I'll watch the gauge tomorrow first thing as possibly that's what happens. My time is similar to yours including the pre infusion.


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## SurreyAlan (8 mo ago)

The gauge stayed at 10 bar, as it stayed at 10 with the blind filter I'd think the water is finding a path through the grounds towards the end. I went to a bottomless portafilter with the 18g basket one reason being it gave more space but also as I could see where channelling occurred.


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