# Some interesting thoughts from Reiss on Scott Rao



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/here-s-a-funny-story


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

> <snip>One point of interest he did raise was dont level with the edge of your finger, which is something i am guilt of doing - im going to try using the back of a knife for a month and see if i can raise my game - he was at pains to emphasise the importance of not having it just finger flat but dead flat, spirit level flat all over, before you tamp.<snip></snip></snip>


I have queried this on the forum previously (in relation to a "Coffee Catcha" I think) but didn't get any answers.....

How can we reconcile:

a) Weigh out a dose of coffee (very) accurately.

and

b) Scrape a (random) amount off of this to either make it flat or "dead flat, spirit level flat" before you tamp.

No matter how accurately you weigh the dose if you scrape some of it away your accuracy has gone to sh*t.

How can anybody (with a straight face) claim that there is a difference between "finger flat" and "spirit level flat" but ignore the variation of scraping a random amount of grounds off the dose?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Drewster said:


> I have queried this on the forum previously (in relation to a "Coffee Catcha" I think) but didn't get any answers.....
> 
> How can we reconcile:
> 
> ...


I think he's talking about after you have tamped it.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/here-s-a-funny-story


thanks for sharing that DFK, a great read for sure


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> I think he's talking about after you have tamped it.


Well as as per the quote he specifically says "before you tamp"...........


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Drewster said:


> Well as as per the quote he specifically says "before you tamp"...........


Ok yes that what he saying sorry.

I can understand why you would say this, if you use your finger then you could end up mashing the grounds around and downwards creating areas of higher density before you tamp. This would result in uneven extraction.

What i don't understand it the importance of the spirit level flat if you them whack the PF on the table twice to remove any air pockets, surely this part of the process completely destroys your excellent work from making the bed completely flat?


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

I was just wondering whether the readings from one of these refractometer thingies was really reflective of taste...?

Presumably if one makes a coffee using London water, it will give a different result to the same shot pulled in Newcastle... Very hard water vs naturally soft water... So the former will taste very different to the latter, but the former will show a higher %TDS than the latter.

As Reiss said, water is the main part of every cup of coffee.

So uniformity of results can only be achieved with uniformity of water... And that will never reflect the real world. Will it?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Ok yes that what he saying sorry.
> 
> I can understand why you would say this, if you use your finger then you could end up mashing the grounds around and downwards creating areas of higher density before you tamp. This would result in uneven extraction.
> 
> What i don't understand it the importance of the spirit level flat if you them whack the PF on the table twice to remove any air pockets, surely this part of the process completely destroys your excellent work from making the bed completely flat?


Sorry Spence - You have missed my query!

I can (just about) see that levelling with your finger is "different" from levelling (spirit level flat) with a knife/straight edge.

But that can only make a tiny difference.

If a dose is say 18g then scraping stuff off the top of the pile in the pf *must* make much more difference!

Given that we weigh to an accuracy or 0.0n grams (ie less than 0.1 of a gram = 1/2 of 1%).

How much gets scrapped off? 0.5g > 2.5%, 1g > 5.5%

And no matter how much gets scrapped off - the amount each time will vary so this is (relatively speaking) a pretty big variation between each shot...

I don't scrape anything off... I weigh Xgrams (to 0.0n accuracy) and get as far as I can every last bit of coffee into the pf....

Yet "they" (who presumably weigh just as accurately) randomly scrape off say upto 2-3% of their dose before every tamp!!!


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Yes. I've been troubled by this too for a long time.

My finger is irregular in profile and coffee grounds adhere to it so it does not create an even distribution. I never perfected stockfleth's manoeuvre either. I use this:

View attachment 10592


A clay modelling tool a bit bigger than a lolly stick. I tried profiled credit cards in the Australian style but came down on the side of VST and flat distribution.

So my next issue is that if you fill and scrape you are essentially overfilling a basket, inviting interference from the shower screen and assuming that overfilled is a consistent dose... As the honourable member has already stated: this cannot be.

So I weigh my doses into a cup, occasionally whisk to promote fluffiness, stir to distribute evenly in the PF and (more often than not the coffee is below the rim so scraping is a redundant measure) tamp.

If the grounds are very fluffy and so not below the rim, then I'll scrape whilst rotating the basket to be sure the coffee goes right up to the edges of the basket. Assuming I've matched the basket to dose well enough, I only ever scrape a pinch of coffee off the top into the knock box.

I use a naked portafilter so I'm looking for droplets in all holes simultaneously as a visual measure of success.

And I just bought a CC Torr 58.5mm flat tamper to replace my convex Reg Barber so I really am aspiring to absolutely symmetrical distribution and compaction.

It's a bit of a faff I don't mind saying (and I know both Glenn and Scotford would advocate less interference) but I don't do this for a living and I've found no better way yet. Always open minded though.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Drewster, this might help...

http://www.prufrockcoffee.com/primitive-scales-and-advanced-grooming/


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Drewster said:


> Sorry Spence - You have missed my query!
> 
> I can (just about) see that levelling with your finger is "different" from levelling (spirit level flat) with a knife/straight edge.
> 
> ...


A just tried and agree, if you use a knife-edge on a voluminous mound then you are left with a head that you basically have to discard and yes this will affect eh weight/extraction etc.. With your finger you can incorporate all of the ground coffee and you should be more consistent as you know exactly how much coffee you have.

I suppose if you technique is consistent then you should end up with a similar amount each time so you have to go from weighing beans to weighing the PF before and after dosing to ensure your beans weigh what you expected. I doubt I'd be able to fit 20g in a 20g vst using the knife edge method.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

sjenner said:


> I was just wondering whether the readings from one of these refractometer thingies was really reflective of taste...?
> 
> Presumably if one makes a coffee using London water, it will give a different result to the same shot pulled in Newcastle... Very hard water vs naturally soft water... So the former will taste very different to the latter, but the former will show a higher %TDS than the latter.
> 
> ...


Hi Stephen, I see what you're saying & yes different water, like different beans, will give a different result flavour wise. However a refractometer isn't a flavour-meter, it isn't trying to say "go more chocolatey", "less blueberry", it is just measuring the dissolved solids in the cup & the software then calculates the % of the dry dose you have managed to wash into the cup (established as an objective factor in flavour development by various bodies & individuals from ~60yrs ago, up to the present). The water will principally be an issue if it prevents you getting a normal extraction, but I guess we're stuck with the water we have (whether it be tap, or bottled) and if we're getting good results with it regularly than we should perhaps be looking at something else to explain a poor result?

How a water tastes pre brew may not directly reflect on the flavour post brew.

A 19.5% extraction yield is a 19.5% extraction yield irrespective of water, or bean type. Whether it (or any other target) will always reflect a best cup is another matter & one of the reasons for measurement & analysis, so you can monitor extraction yield vs flavour & maintain a preference point.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> ?...I doubt I'd be able to fit 20g in a 20g vst using the knife edge method.


I think that's the essence of the issue. If you use your finger, you are compacting as well as distributing. Tough to be sure that's even.

I suspect this is what gave rise to the 'tap' to remove air before the finger swipe. (Have you seen the lune who uses a drill to vibrate the grounds flat by the way?)

I find that by rotating the PF under the spatula I get far less compaction from weight (of a finger) but that repeatedly passing the grounds over each other, they shuffle about a little and settle*. In this way I get - near as damnit - 18g into my 18g VST and, for the most part, even puck saturation.

* for a while, I would 'chop' the grounds to part level the pile prior to swiping (forget which US coffee shop was using this technique) but it resulted in doughnuts or worse.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Obnic said:


> I think that's the essence of the issue. If you use your finger, you are compacting as well as distributing. Tough to be sure that's even.
> 
> I suspect this is what gave rise to the 'tap' to remove air before the finger swipe. (Have you seen the lune who uses a drill to vibrate the grounds flat by the way?)
> 
> ...


Nice, will persevere with a flat edge and see if I can improve my shots









Not seen the guy with the drill but I saw a pic of Maxwell from Collona & Smalls using a scientific vibration bath and he put the PF in it! Surely overkill


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Nice, will persevere with a flat edge and see if I can improve my shots
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Max uses that because it's quicker and cleaner, which is a big deal when you're that busy.

Regarding using your finger, you level after weighing, then weigh again; you don't weigh then discard a random amount of grounds.

You're not stuck with the water you have - different filtration systems work in different ways. In Bath we have high calcium and bicarbonate, but low magnesium, so the best filter is the Bestmax Premium, which performs calcium magnesium exchange. Elsewhere you can go for RO, or run the standard BWT, depending on what minerals are present in what quantities.

JP


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But, if you gave a bloke with a decent palate, two shots. one made with finger, one without finger..........would he know the difference


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jjprestidge said:


> Max uses that because it's quicker and cleaner, which is a big deal when you're that busy.
> 
> Regarding using your finger, you level after weighing, then weigh again; *you don't weigh then discard a random amount of grounds*.
> 
> ...


On many, many videos, and several observations in real life the *final act* before tamping is the "flattening" (Coffee Catcha, Finger, Knife, credit card etc) so that the dose is level with the top if the pf.... then tamp, lock and shot.

On all/many of these observations (what ever they did to weigh/measure/time the dose) they "threw away" some of the measured dose (often back into the top of the doser but also into the knock box etc). The whole point is that whatever they measured "some" of it (and depending on grind, humidity, wind direction or whatever this is a random "some") is lost/thrown away prior to tamp.

ie

They don't weigh/measure ==> level ==> re-weigh/measure ==> re-level (adinfinitum) ==> Tamp ==> lock n shot

They weigh/measure ==> level ==> tamp ==> lock n shot...

On most occasions the "level" pushes some coffee out of the pf (ranging from a tiny amount to a fair bit)


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I need a vst basket I see choices of 18g or 20g I see folks referring to "scraping off" or discarding a small percentage of "overfill".

The engineer in me says use the 20g basket and scrape anything on the edges back into the basket where the additional height should allow the tamper to do its work with very little interference from me.

Is my beginner status shining through here? Is this not perhaps the reason why the barista championships have moved to 20g baskets?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> Max uses that because it's quicker and cleaner, which is a big deal when you're that busy.
> 
> Regarding using your finger, you level after weighing, then weigh again; you don't weigh then discard a random amount of grounds.
> 
> ...


I have no doubt that Maxwell uses it because he is busy, I was commenting on whether or not the use of a vibration plate under any circumstances was overkill. I've neither been able to try this myself or have spoken to anyone who does use it so was more interested in that really.

All I was saying RE levelling was that with my grinder, with 20g of beans I end up with a very voluminous mound. When I use my finger I can incorporate this easily into 20g and I understand that this is not necessarily consistent. Hence Obnic mentioning that Scott is suggesting tapping twice before levelling as I had read it that he was levelling and then tapping. I would never advocate striking away random amounts of coffee hence my earlier comments, I'm one of the obsessive crew


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But, if you gave a bloke with a decent palate, two shots. one made with finger, one without finger..........would he know the difference


Is the finger still in it when they taste it?


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> But, if you gave a bloke with a decent palate, two shots. one made with finger, one without finger..........would he know the difference


No. However we are merely saying that you may more consistently get that decent shot if you don't use your finger, not that it's impossible to make a decent shot whilst using a finger.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Is the finger still in it when they taste it?


I'm more worried about where that finger had been before it was used....


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Drewster said:


> On many, many videos, and several observations in real life the *final act* before tamping is the "flattening" (Coffee Catcha, Finger, Knife, credit card etc) so that the dose is level with the top if the pf.... then tamp, lock and shot.
> 
> On all/many of these observations (what ever they did to weigh/measure/time the dose) they "threw away" some of the measured dose (often back into the top of the doser but also into the knock box etc). The whole point is that whatever they measured "some" of it (and depending on grind, humidity, wind direction or whatever this is a random "some") is lost/thrown away prior to tamp.
> 
> ...


On my 17g Strada baskets I'd have to be dosing 19g (ie too much) for it to be level with the top of the basket when uncompressed.

JP


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

grumpydaddy said:


> I need a vst basket I see choices of 18g or 20g I see folks referring to "scraping off" or discarding a small percentage of "overfill".
> 
> The engineer in me says use the 20g basket and scrape anything on the edges back into the basket where the additional height should allow the tamper to do its work with very little interference from me.
> 
> Is my beginner status shining through here? Is this not perhaps the reason why the barista championships have moved to 20g baskets?


Given a choice go for 18g baskets, unless you like darker coffees. The speciality industry is moving to lower dry doses.

JP


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> On my 17g Strada baskets I'd have to be dosing 19g (ie too much) for it to be level with the top of the basket when uncompressed.
> 
> JP


I thought those Anfim Dosers produced super fluffy grounds? I would have expected 17g in 17g basket to be right up there.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> On my 17g Strada baskets I'd have to be dosing 19g (ie too much) for it to be level with the top of the basket when uncompressed.
> 
> JP


How come you decided to go with 17g LM (strada?) over the VST 18g basket.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> How come you decided to go with 17g LM (strada?) over the VST 18g basket.


I have both, and 20g VSTs, which get very little use. Considering moving to 15g VST as Colonna and Smalls have.

JP


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

There is some really good stuff coming through in this thread. I admit, not from me but thats life!


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> I have both, and 20g VSTs, which get very little use. Considering moving to 15g VST as Colonna and Smalls have.
> 
> JP


Fair enough, I find the 15g much harder to get a consistent shot from but when you nail it it rocks!


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> I thought those Anfim Dosers produced super fluffy grounds? I would have expected 17g in 17g basket to be right up there.


They do, but here's what nearly 19g looks like


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

jjprestidge said:


> They do, but here's what nearly 19g looks like
> View attachment 10595


Looks nice, is that 18.7 in the 17g basket? Would you level it off to 17-18g?


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> Looks nice, is that 18.7 in the 17g basket? Would you level it off to 17-18g?


Yep. I'm dosing 17.5g in, 36g out with that coffee (Round Hill Libertadora), so I wouldn't normally have dosed as much (can usually get it within 0.5g).

JP


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

I level with a finger as my baskets are never overflowing (18g dose into 18g VST). Any thoughts as to what the ideal levelling implement would look like? Knife obviously no good as it has to fit inside the basket.

This might be an interesting 3D printer project, which, coincidentally, is something for which I am looking.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jjprestidge said:


> On my 17g Strada baskets I'd have to be dosing 19g (ie too much) for it to be level with the top of the basket when uncompressed.
> 
> JP


In which case "levelling" with finger/knife/credit card is meaningless so quite obviously *isn't* what Scott Rao/Reiss is talking about in the original link - if it doesn't go higher than the basket then you ain't levelling it with the back of a knife!

If it doesn't "fill (or over fill) the top of the basket using the back of a knife to level it isn't going to work.

If they are using the back of a knife to level it it *must* be higher than the top of the basket therefore they *must* be throwing away some of the (carefully measured) dose.

*NB In this scenario I am assuming "levelling with finger" rather than knife is just that levelling by "scraping" over the top.

I know some people might push coffee about a bit with their finger but the implication is that if using a knife you are just "scraping" it.


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## Hoffmonkey (Apr 28, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> They do, but here's what nearly 19g looks like
> View attachment 10595


Nice scales. Where did you grab those from?

I have 14 and 17 strada baskets and I get great results from both. I don't up dose either. I probably don't get the extractions you do either though.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Hoffmonkey said:


> Nice scales. Where did you grab those from?
> 
> I have 14 and 17 strada baskets and I get great results from both. I don't up dose either. I probably don't get the extractions you do either though.


Bought them online. Ridiculously expensive, but they're so quick and accurate for use in the shop that they're worth the money.

JP


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## Hoffmonkey (Apr 28, 2014)

I think mine are about to bite the dust - they're not very good with droplets of water...


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Scales are pretty much a consumable here.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I've had some.of the silver scales with the bright blue led display. They seem to be much more water resistant by design and I would highly recommend them. If you search for posts on scales they come up. I have two sets one 0.01g/500g on bean weighing duty and 0.1g/2000g for the beverage/chemex. For home they are perfect IMHO.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Hoffmonkey said:


> Nice scales. Where did you grab those from?
> 
> I have 14 and 17 strada baskets and I get great results from both. I don't up dose either. I probably don't get the extractions you do either though.


They are available at the Matt Perger shop. Search google for perf tamp and you will find the shop, cant remember the name.

You will not believe the price of these scales, they are really suited for busy shops.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> Given a choice go for 18g baskets, unless you like darker coffees. The speciality industry is moving to lower dry doses.
> 
> JP


I was under the impression that darker, Italian blend style coffees, require smaller dosages? I use the 15g VST for those.

I understand from what you are saying that it might be better to use the 20g VST with darker beans?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

charris said:


> I was under the impression that darker, Italian blend style coffees, require smaller dosages? I use the 15g VST for those.
> 
> I understand from what you are saying that it might be better to use the 20g VST with darker beans?


I've only generally used my 20g VST basket for dark dark beans. In some cases for me it's been the only way to get a shot that tastes reasonably ok from that bean type.

Having said that I've moved away from dark dark bean of late so I don't generally use it that much.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

charris said:


> I was under the impression that darker, Italian blend style coffees, require smaller dosages? I use the 15g VST for those.
> 
> I understand from what you are saying that it might be better to use the 20g VST with darker beans?


Dark roasts extract more easily, especially if your machine is set up for light roasts (ie higher temperature). A larger dose will help to stop over extraction.

JP


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

@jjprestidge what's your starting recipe for the 15g VST? Something like 15>28 in 28secs?


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Xpenno said:


> @jjprestidge what's your starting recipe for the 15g VST? Something like 15>28 in 28secs?


15 - 30+ in 30+ seconds (the Mirage is a bit unusual in that it favours longer times - hardly ever tastes good below 30s).

JP


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

What was interesting is that the humble lever had acheived the highest extraction yield! Basics just work......


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Credit card flat vs finger sweep = no difference in taste if you have dosed correctly and got your routine sorted

In a VST basket I have found a very gentle single or double tap (no more) can help

This was most evident on a VA Black Eagle, where no tap gave a wildly differing extraction than a double tap - with finger levelled dose, light tamp, double tap producing a lovely shot.

This was using the Mythos One also, so not sure how it would have fared with another grinder.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

jjprestidge said:


> I have both, and 20g VSTs, which get very little use. Considering moving to 15g VST as Colonna and Smalls have.


JP, if you're in the know - I'm quite interested to understand the rationale for Colonna & Smalls moving toward 15g VSTs, is it for the purpose of greater extraction yield with a smaller relative volume (and) or to possibly to reduce costs from a smaller dose size?

If I recall rightly, you mentioned that their milk-based drinks went up from 6oz/8oz/10oz with the latter being a Latté,

presuming they don't down-size their cups, you'd surely end up with the espresso being lost in an ultimately weaker drink.

I sold my 15g VST a few moons back so I can't fiddle about as such.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Beanosaurus said:


> JP, if you're in the know - I'm quite interested to understand the rationale for Colonna & Smalls moving toward 15g VSTs, is it for the purpose of greater extraction yield with a smaller relative volume (and) or to possibly to reduce costs from a smaller dose size?
> 
> If I recall rightly, you mentioned that their milk-based drinks went up from 6oz/8oz/10oz with the latter being a Latté,
> 
> ...


Cost was not a factor. The main reason was that Max never runs at less than 1:2 brew ratio. Some coffees were working best quite long, which, if you're starting with say 19g you end up with a very large espresso, which only just fits in the cup.

JP


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Down dose , grind finer , pull longer, extract more ......


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Down dose , grind finer , pull longer, extract more ......


 It's a shame that that would be too long to go on the Tshirt. It has become my current favourite slogan that won't appear.


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