# Getting frustrated with sour espresso shots.......



## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Hi All

I'm finding my results in the cup are going backwards as my equipment and technique improves and it's starting to get frustrating.

My main problem seems to be sourness in the cup, still drinkable, but not enjoyable.

Over the past 2-3 weeks I have had 250g of Rave Mocha Java and am now onto 250g of Rave Colombian Suarez. So far I have only had 1 nice shot out of the Mocha Java, where there was no sourness, nice chocolatey/nutty flavours and nice mouthfeel. The rest of the time I've had sourness, and with the Colombian Suarez it seems to be even worse to be honest.

My setup/method/brew recipes are below:

*Set-up - *Gaggia Classic with OPV mod done, stock double basket / shower screen, DIY PID Rex C100 with a RTD PT100 sensor. Eureka Mignon grinder. MBK 58.4mm tamper.

*Method - *Warm up Gaggia for at least 30 minutes before shot. Weigh 18g in, single dose, I don't weigh every output but in the past have weighed outputs and had very little retention in the Mignon (maybe 0.2-0.3g). Chopstick to declump and distribute in the basket and straight tamp. Aiming for 36g out, but typically overshoot this slightly to 37-38g. Getting shots between 27s-30s.

*Cleaning -*recently fully soaked portafilter, basket, shower screen, block in Puly Caff and thoroughly backflushed with Puly Caff and blind basket.

*Temperature - *PID currently set to 96degC. It was previously set to 93degC and I increased it slightly whilst using the Mocha Java and found the sourness to decrease, eventually leading to one decent shot.

*Crema - *good, no problems there.

*Puck - *good, no fracturing or channeling.

*Beans- *Rave Mocha Java and Colombian Suarez. Rested 7-8 days post roast.

*Water - *soft cheshire tap water.

*Taste - *Tinged with acid sourness. Not undrinkable, but not enjoyable. Can't taste the nice chocolatey/nutty/caramel flavours coming through.

I have tried grinding finer and taking the shots up to 35sec and although this gets rid of some of the sourness it's still tinged by it and the shot tastes no better.

Bizarrely, I used to enjoy my shots far more before I did the OPV mod, using a basic Bodum Bistro grinder, not weighing in/out, and pulling longer shots (45-50g from 18g).

Any help would be much appreciated.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What was the coffee you were using in the bodum

How rested is the coffee you are using now.

Have you tried 18>24-25g over 25-35 seconds ...

Are you drinking espresso or as milk drink ?

Chocolate notes for me tend to be sweetness and opposed to actually tasting like a galaxy for instance . will become more prevalent on milk based drinks also.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

NJD1977 said:


> Bizarrely, I used to enjoy my shots far more before I did the OPV mod, using a basic Bodum Bistro grinder, not weighing in/out, and pulling longer shots (45-50g from 18g).
> 
> Any help would be much appreciated.


Have you tried going back to the longer ratio?


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> What was the coffee you were using in the bodum
> 
> How rested is the coffee you are using now.
> 
> ...


The coffee is 8 days post roast now.

No I haven't tried lower yields yet, I wanted to get a 2 to 1 right first.

I am drinking as straight espresso, no milk.



MWJB said:


> Have you tried going back to the longer ratio?


No not yet, as above, I wanted to try to get the 2 to 1 ratio nailed really.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

NJD1977 said:


> No not yet, as above, I wanted to try to get the 2 to 1 ratio nailed really.


OK but bear in mind this might be clamping your extraction.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

MWJB said:


> OK but bear in mind this might be clamping your extraction.


Sorry, what do you mean by "clamping"? Shouldn't it be possible to extract most beans at 2 to 1 over 25-30 seconds correctly? Or are you saying it may be impossible to extract these beans correctly at a 2 to 1 ratio?


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## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

I have a simular setup with gaggia classic + pid and have best results with pid set to 101 degrees.

More sour taste can also mean beans are of a lighter roast.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You might not like these beans at 1:2. Play about with the ratios


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

I had this with some HAS BEAN Costa Rican beans, eventually got it nailed by grinding much finer. I was 15g in 30 with a stock basket in a Classic, I found anything over 16g meant no headspace ans also light tamping, could give this a try.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

How old is the Mignon?

I was getting slightly sour shots with a new grinder and it was suggested to me that shots will often be a bit "bright" until the grinder was fully seasoned (several kg of beans).

maybe also try slightly lower dose and finer grind


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

NJD1977 said:


> Sorry, what do you mean by "clamping"? Shouldn't it be possible to extract most beans at 2 to 1 over 25-30 seconds correctly? Or are you saying it may be impossible to extract these beans correctly at a 2 to 1 ratio?


It may well be possible to extract nominally at 2:1, but it's not necessarily a given, extraction rises with output, so the more water you push through the puck the better your odds. You have obviously enjoyed longer shots in the past, is pursuing 2:1 shots just making a rod for your own back?


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

martinierius said:


> I have a simular setup with gaggia classic + pid and have best results with pid set to 101 degrees.
> 
> More sour taste can also mean beans are of a lighter roast.


Sorry, I should clarify that there are some internal corrections added to my Rex as follows:

PID PT100 was originally reading 2.2deg lower than 100degC in boiling water. Observed diff between PT100 reading and brew head water temp is assumed to be 4deg. Therefore SC value of +2.2 - 4 = -1.8 input into Rex to give a readout of the brew temperature rather than boiler casing. If I added the 4deg back in to read the boiler casing it would read similar to yours at 100degC exactly.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

NickdeBug said:


> How old is the Mignon?
> 
> I was getting slightly sour shots with a new grinder and it was suggested to me that shots will often be a bit "bright" until the grinder was fully seasoned (several kg of beans).
> 
> maybe also try slightly lower dose and finer grind


It's a couple of years old, I got it second hand so the burrs are already well seasoned.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Actually, now I think about it, the better shots came before I applied any corrections to the PID, and I was using a set-point of 102-103degC. I suppose it's possible that the PT-100 wasn't under-reading in boiling water, and that the assumed loss of 4deg between boiler casing and brew head could be more like 8 deg. I may just try ramping the temperature up by another 3-4 degrees and see what happens. What's to lose?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Low temp would result in perceived sourness ...

Try it


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Could be the water .

Try bottled


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Could be the water .
> 
> Try bottled


But not volvic tho


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Could be the water .
> 
> Try bottled


I've had no problems with the water in the past, it tastes pretty reasonable straight from the tap and is very soft water. I may give it a go, but I'd be very doubtful this is the culprit.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

All my shots are sour and cringe worthy. They look pretty.. and taste great in milk based drinks.

But then again I'm not using a grinder at the moment, and I have not yet mastered ratios or really played with them. I try to stop the shot before it blondes but my machine pushes the coffee out too fast to stop it at the right point. (Most likely the grind is too course)

Your lucky to have soft water, I have to use bottled water for my machine as I live in the hardest water area in England. I spend around £8 every fortnight usually on water. (Buxton as it tastes the best)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cana said:


> All my shots are sour and cringe worthy. They look pretty.. and taste great in milk based drinks.
> 
> But then again I'm not using a grinder at the moment, and I have not yet mastered ratios or really played with them. I try to stop the shot before it blondes but my machine pushes the coffee out too fast to stop it at the right point. (Most likely the grind is too course)
> 
> Your lucky to have soft water, I have to use bottled water for my machine as I live in the hardest water area in England. I spend around £8 every fortnight usually on water. (Buxton as it tastes the best)


You r problem is no grinder and a machine that needs servicing


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Well I tried upping the temperature by 3degC, and still no better. If anything the taste was even more sour/fruity - the shot tasted more like a deep red wine than coffee.

So this morning, I gave it a go as a 3:1 shot, and although my grind was a little too coarse (took 21 seconds), the taste was much more palatable and enjoyable.

So what's going on here? I don't really understand it to be honest.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Your grind (with those beans) & dose will only produce a well extracted shot at a small range of shot weights. It sounds like it is too coarse for a well extracted 2:1 shot, so if you can't grind finder (there is a point where grinding finer ceases to raise extraction yields, can't say if you're anywhere close to that yet though), you have to pull bigger shots. You'd need a finer grind to get the same extraction at less than 3:1.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> Well I tried upping the temperature by 3degC, and still no better. If anything the taste was even more sour/fruity - the shot tasted more like a deep red wine than coffee.
> 
> So this morning, I gave it a go as a 3:1 shot, and although my grind was a little too coarse (took 21 seconds), the taste was much more palatable and enjoyable.
> 
> So what's going on here? I don't really understand it to be honest.


You enjoy your coffee at a longer Brew ratio... That's cool.

Brew ratio allows you to have a recipe you enjoy and replicate it..doesnt mean it has to be the same brew ratio as me or anyone else


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> You r problem is no grinder and a machine that needs servicing


Yea haha







luckily I fixed it though, going to use calinet on it today and hope it clears the steamwand fully and boom brand new!

No more leaks. I'm getting my grinder soon hopefully.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Your grind (with those beans) & dose will only produce a well extracted shot at a small range of shot weights. *It sounds like it is too coarse for a well extracted 2:1 shot, so if you can't grind finder* (there is a point where grinding finer ceases to raise extraction yields, can't say if you're anywhere close to that yet though), you have to pull bigger shots. You'd need a finer grind to get the same extraction at less than 3:1.


Thanks for the reply. The bolded bit above is what I really don't understand. I often see references to "grind finer", I've got no problem with grinding *way way finer* on the Mignon than I currently do, but if I go slightly finer than my current 2:1 in 30s I just choke the machine. How do you go about getting a finer grind without choking the machine?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Tamp lighter


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> You enjoy your coffee at a longer Brew ratio... That's cool.
> 
> Brew ratio allows you to have a recipe you enjoy and replicate it..doesnt mean it has to be the same brew ratio as me or anyone else


Yeah I guess so, but what I still don't understand, is that in theory, shouldn't it be possible to pull a decent 2:1 shot from a Classic/Mignon combo, that taste's non-sour. I know everyone has different palates, but I'd challenge anyone not to say my shots at 2:1 were sour. So why can't I do it even when I hit 36g out from 18g in over 27seconds at the correct stable temperature.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Tamp lighter


You reckon that's feasible? I've always found that the tamp strength (within reason) doesn't seem to alter my pours that much. I think I'd have to go a lot lighter (almost to the point of just letting the tamper sit under it's own weight in the basket) to stop the machine choking at a finer grind.

What is interesting though is the previous owner of the Mignon had put a mark on the dial and body for where he started to dial in from for a 9bar machine, just as a starting point. If I try to use this mark, the grind is extremely fine and just totally chokes the machine. Granted that's using my normal tamp pressure, I haven't tried it with a very light tamp.

I'll give it a go, thanks.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> Yeah I guess so, but what I still don't understand, is that in theory, shouldn't it be possible to pull a decent 2:1 shot from a Classic/Mignon combo, that taste's non-sour. I know everyone has different palates, but I'd challenge anyone not to say my shots at 2:1 were sour. So why can't I do it even when I hit 36g out from 18g in over 27seconds at the correct stable temperature.


You seem stuck on one ratio , that 1:2 is simply a suggested starting point , not a be all and all for all drinks....where all drinks will and must taste good .......

you might not like that bean at that ratio

a different ratio might be more to your taste

Not all drinks should or will taste good to you at that one ratio ..

You need to be able to adjust and the ratio to suit to a taste you like

Of course you can try pulling that ratio over different times ( which will change its taste )

I dint think anyone is saying you taste is off ( it its tastes sour to you it is ) it might be if i tasted it , then it wouldn't taste sour , but that is by the by.....

Does this help at all??

If that means is 1:3 or 1:1 then thats fine .. as long as the drink tastes good that is all the matters.....


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> You seem stuck on one ratio , that 1:2 is simply a suggested starting point , not a be all and all for all drinks....where all drinks will and must taste good .......
> 
> you might not like that bean at that ratio
> 
> ...


Yeah thanks it does help - although now it opens up even more variables to dial in a bean. I always used to dial in aiming for 2:1 over 25-30s. Now it seems I need to just keep trialling a shot to extract over 25-30s and worry less about output weight and more about taste. Ironically, this is all I did when I started out, just pulled shots that I tried to fill a double -shot glass with over 25-30s and didn't measure weights at all........and they tasted much better!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> Yeah thanks it does help - although now it opens up even more variables to dial in a bean. I always used to dial in aiming for 2:1 over 25-30s. Now it seems I need to just keep trialling a shot to extract over 25-30s and worry less about output weight and more about taste. Ironically, this is all I did when I started out, just pulled shots that I tried to fill a double -shot glass with over 25-30s and didn't measure weights at all........and they tasted much better!


you can pull a 1:2 ratio

a 20 second shot if it , will taste different to a 35 second shot ( at 18>36g )

there are lot of variables at play in sourness ( temp , even extraction , bean profile , taste preference )

As i said if you are making a drink that you are happy with at 1:3 for this bean , then thats all that matters........

establishing that brew ratio just means you know how to make a shot your happy with next time and next time ( for that one bean )


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

It's not really more variables, if a shot runs a bit faster than you want it to then that's your 'long shot', if your grind is too fine that can be your 1:1.5 or whatever - it's just using your dialling in shots more efficiently...


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Thanks for all your help. Over the last few days I've been trying to dial the bean into a 3:1 ratio and almost there now. The shots are completely different, altogether more rich, satisfying, balanced and enjoyable......and I get more to drink!

I guess I just must be a traditional Italian 3:1 kinda guy!

Thanks all, feel like I've learned something this week.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> Thanks for all your help. Over the last few days I've been trying to dial the bean into a 3:1 ratio and almost there now. The shots are completely different, altogether more rich, satisfying, balanced and enjoyable......and I get more to drink!
> 
> I guess I just must be a traditional Italian 3:1 kinda guy!
> 
> Thanks all, feel like I've learned something this week.


Thats great news!!! 1:3 might be where you live !!! ( 3:1 would be a very different cup of coffee )

Here you go , just to illustrate , its takes different strokes for different folk

http://home.lamarzoccousa.com/brew-ratios-around-world/s


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Oh yeah 1:3 of course!! Amazing how the mouthfeel is still there 20mins after I have finished the shot. I was getting none of that before.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Sign of a decent shot is being able to taste it long after you've drunk it.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Sign of a decent shot is being able to taste it long after you've drunk it.


I'm still in search of the illusive...God shot!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I do actually like 1:2.5 (18:45) with some beans. Apart from a slightly bigger drink, you get a tad more clarity and different flavours coming through, but at the expense of some of that viscous sweetness that I also like in a borderline ristretto/normale.

That LM article was quite interesting Mr Boots. Although who knew Matt Perger was running shots at upto 1:17?! I thought that was the "wrong way to make Americano"!


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## Mmiah (Feb 13, 2015)

Names dont mean much. Aim is to get a drink that tastes good. Technically an espresso used to be 7g coffee to 25/30ml. These days people use double the amount of coffee beans. My favourite drink at the moment is something between a flat white and latte


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Cappuccino?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Flatte?


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## Mmiah (Feb 13, 2015)

Kinda. Just no thick foam. Keeps changing as im trying to create a decent microfoam without huge foamy bubbles on top. Still at that experimental stage


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

hotmetal said:


> I do actually like 1:2.5 (18:45) with some beans. Apart from a slightly bigger drink, you get a tad more clarity and different flavours coming through, but at the expense of some of that viscous sweetness that I also like in a borderline ristretto/normale.
> 
> That LM article was quite interesting Mr Boots. Although who knew Matt Perger was running shots at upto 1:17?! I thought that was the "wrong way to make Americano"!


1:17

is something like how my mate used to make me an americano, it could of been more or less he didn't weigh anything, but it tasted great compared to the coffee I was drinking at home at the time - Supermarket preground Lavz*a through my Douwe Egberts drip machine. I was at his house a few weeks ago (after being a member here and buying 'stuff') and that great tasting americano was awful


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

1:17 espresso isn't really an Americano, as you're not diluting the shot with hot water. Perger & Kaminsky call this a coffee shot, long espressos have been made in the past notably by David Walsh & commercially (though with a different intent & result to a coffee shot) such as the Swiss Caffe Crema (I've heard the Belgians have done it too (Traditionelle).

Grind has to be set coarser so that the shots don't overextract.


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