# Niche zero for pour over coffee, surprising taste, better options?



## SashaPi (May 2, 2021)

Hi,

I just received my Niche Zero, that I purchased to replace an old Breville Smart Grinder Pro.

















I like to do pour-overs using my V60 with some good coffee from Ethiopia, rather light roast, which results in a slightly sour, but clear taste and quite expressed flavours.

So first of all, I noticed that I had to go almost past the markers to match my usual grind size for V60 (around 50 or even ~60).

Anything finer than that doesn't really taste good, flavours are muted and I can almost not sense sourness at all.

But even with the coarser grind, sure the sourness and the flavours are there, but I can also sense some other taste that I didn't experience with the old Breville.

I don't know how this taste is named by the way. Among the four basic tastes (sourness, bitterness, sweetness and saltiness), bitterness would be the closest one. But it's not really bitterness. It feels like a bit of muddiness, lack of clarity. As if this coffee contained very tiny particles that caused some friction feel in the mouth. Is this what's called astringency?

So, i am a bit surprised to be honest, given the good reviews for this grinder. I mean, sure it's very nice and practical, but I'm a bit surprised by the taste. Do you believe there is something I can improve, keep trying different settings, or maybe the Niche grinder is best for espresso and I should find something designed specifically for pour over coffee? Maybe even a hand grinder?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You need to season the burrs. They need around 10 kg run through before they will settle down and perform admirably. Do not take my word, perhaps @MWJB being a Niche owner and brew expert will chip in


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

@MWJB will be the one to ask about pour overs I think.

Am I to understand the taste you're aiming for is what you described in the first sentence i.e sour, clarity 'expressed flavours'?

The bitterness you're referring to is almost certainly related to your technique rather than the grinder. If you are particularly sensitive to fines you'd probably also have a problem using the Breville or a hand grinder. Something specific for pour over would be something like a Ditting. The closest in an hand grinder would be the Orphan Espresso Apex.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You have been using a grinder that isn't as "bad" as many think. They also improve with use. As many who buy them are new to the "hobby" I suspect they don't notice.

I don't drink pour over etc but given I order 750g of beans once a month or sooner in the same vein as @dfk41 taste will change with use. A few of my orders set it well on the way but they are reckoned to carry on improving for some figure over 10kg. Very slowly though after the initial changes. The usual thing that is noticed is a finer grinder settings over time. I'd guess that may apply to any form of brewing or something similar.

In my case the initial taste was what I would refer to as fierce and that blurred out the usual distinct taste the bean usually has.


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## SashaPi (May 2, 2021)

Ok, so maybe I just grind 10 kg of some cheap coffee?

@Rob1 yes, I'm aiming for slightly sour, bright, fruity, with expressed flavours. I especially like Ethiopian coffee from Yirgacheffe.

I just did two blind tests to compare the pour overs from the Breville and the Niche. I did exactly the same technique (and I'm quite meticulous), so I don't think this is a factor here.

And I can taste the difference. Basically to get rid of the "muddiness" I have to grind coarser, but then it gets too sour. 🤔

Although this might not be a huge difference for some (my girlfriend doesn't really notice).


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

SashaPi said:


> Ok, so maybe I just grind 10 kg of some cheap coffee?
> 
> @Rob1 yes, I'm aiming for slightly sour, bright, fruity, with expressed flavours. I especially like Ethiopian coffee from Yirgacheffe.
> 
> ...


 My point was the technique that works for one grinder might not work with another. I know nothing about pour over but it's like that with espresso e.g pulling shots to the same ratio in the same time with the same dose etc will not necessarily produce the best results every grinder can achieve. As with espresso you may need to alter technique/parameters when using different grinders.

Most people don't want sourness at all. Brightness, acidity and fruit flavours are different to sourness. Sourness would suggest a low extraction which would not be associated with 'expressed flavours', so I'm thinking the sourness you say you want is perhaps better described as brightness/acidity which, at a normal extraction, would be an attribute of the coffee you're using?

It is possible, as others have said, that this muddiness will go if you season the grinder.


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## SashaPi (May 2, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> Sourness would suggest a low extraction which would not be associated with 'expressed flavours', so I'm thinking the sourness you say you want is perhaps better described as brightness/acidity which, at a normal extraction, would be an attribute of the coffee you're using?


 Yes, exactly, I'm talking about acidity. In the extraction I'm used to, it feels normal to taste a bit of acidity.

I thought sourness and acidity is the same. Wikipedia says "Sourness is the taste that detects acidity." So what's the difference? 🤔


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

SashaPi said:


> So first of all, I noticed that I had to go almost past the markers to match my usual grind size for V60 (around 50 or even ~60).
> 
> Anything finer than that doesn't really taste good, flavours are muted and I can almost not sense sourness at all.


 This is normal, the "filter" range on the Niche is way too fine to brew V60.

About the finest I have brewed tasty V60 is late 50's, all the way up to low 80's. So keep going coarser, if things start getting too weak/tangy, slow down the pour, by breaking it up into smaller, frequent pulses.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

SashaPi said:


> Yes, exactly, I'm talking about acidity. In the extraction I'm used to, it feels normal to taste a bit of acidity.
> 
> I thought sourness and acidity is the same. Wikipedia says "Sourness is the taste that detects acidity." So what's the difference? 🤔


 Mainly when you describe coffee as tasting sour you're communicating a defect. As in face puckering sourness, unpleasant sourness. If you describe a coffee as having brightness and acidity you describe something that is technically sour but not experienced as unpleasant or defective. Basically if you use the term 'sour' to describe any perception of acidity, while it's technically correct, the term is too broad to be meaningful.


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