# Is my water OK for use in an Espresso machine?



## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi all

I am about to buy an Espresso machine be it a HX or Dual Boiler, not sure which as yet. However before delving into this new venture I have read a lot about the type and quality of water that needs to be used in order to prevent limescale build up in boilers etc. Can anyone advise me as to whether the water in my home is acceptable or if I will need to use bottled water or a reverse osmosis machine etc. The details of my water is as follows:

1. 40 Ca mg/l (according to the Southern Water website. According to them regarded as soft.

2. 100 CaCO3 mg/l (again according to Southern Water website and still soft by their evaluation)

3. A website called Aquacure also states that my area is soft albeit that they don't provide readings, just asked for my postcode.

4. TDS meter shows water from tap being 147ppm

5. TDS meter shows reading of 88ppm when passed through a Brita filter jug that uses their Maxtra+ filter.

Any advice/help in this respect would be greatly appreciated. I want to make sure that from day 1 I use the correct water for whichever machine I choose.

Thanks

Lesd


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The water companies try to confuse you. 40mg Ca sounds soft, but 100mg CaCo3, calcium carbonate sounds much harder. The calcium figure needs to be multiplied by 2.5 to give the the calcium carbonate figure...which is what causes scaling. 100 is not that soft and will cause scale... Soft is a matter of perspective.

Either use bottled water with much lower figures e.g. 10mg ca. The filter jug is quite inexact and the filters have to be changed way before they say so, read weekly. The jug stuff will still scale but slower....so if prepared to change that filter super regular and keep and eye on things, use the jug filter.

RO ensures you won't have any limescale problems...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You won't find many/any bottled water with 10mg/l Ca. If you do, the pH & alkalinity are likely to be low too.

100mg/l CaCO3 isn't a deal breaker as long as the alkalinity is around 50mg/l as CaCO3 (or bicarbonate 60mg/l). These figures should be in an in-depth report from your water authority.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi again

i have checked the report on Southern Waters website but it does not give any info re Alkalinity in the terms mentioned. Only pH value shown is for Hydrogen Ion and that has a reading of 7.55.

As for Bicarbonnate nothing is shown at all.

Lesd


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> Hi again
> 
> i have checked the report on Southern Waters website but it does not give any info re Alkalinity in the terms mentioned. Only pH value shown is for Hydrogen Ion and that has a reading of 7.55.
> 
> ...


 Then you need a KH/alkalinity drop kit from Amazon, or an aquarium supplies shop (this will help explain what your Brita jug does too). Hardness & TDS don't tell you what you need to know.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

I have been researching the internet and have come across a water filtration system called TAPP Water, does anyone know about this and how good it is? It claims to filter out the Calcium and Carbonates that cause limescale in addition to other minerals but leaves sufficient minerals behind that are good/necessary for the human body. They say on their website that RO is good but filters out all minerals and as we know such alternatives put back the essential minerals.

Advantage of the TAPP system, if it works, is the overall ongoing cost which works t at about £50 per year for their cartridges etc. Initial cost higher as you need to get the household tap attachment which holds the cartridges.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> I have been researching the internet and have come across a water filtration system called TAPP Water, does anyone know about this and how good it is? It claims to filter out the Calcium and Carbonates that cause limescale in addition to other minerals but leaves sufficient minerals behind that are good/necessary for the human body. They say on their website that RO is good but filters out all minerals and as we know such alternatives put back the essential minerals.
> 
> Advantage of the TAPP system, if it works, is the overall ongoing cost which works t at about £50 per year for their cartridges etc. Initial cost higher as you need to get the household tap attachment which holds the cartridges.


 Your water doesn't have too much calcium & magnesium. TAPP looks a bit vague, not confidence inspiring.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Lesd said:


> Advantage of the TAPP system, if it works, is the overall ongoing cost which works t at about £50 per year for their cartridges etc. Initial cost higher as you need to get the household tap attachment which holds the cartridges.


 The cartridge looks quite small for 3 months use and theres not a lot of clarity about what it reduces...I don't think it reduces hardness. hard to tell because the hard sell and multiple irritating popups covering everything on the site, quite frankly put me off a bit.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi again

I am completely ignorant in the water world and finding it a little hard to understand what I really need to know. MWJB you say my water info shown above does not indicate high levels of Calcium carbonate, which I understand is the cause of limescale and therefore the most important thing that needs addressing with coffee machines. However you also talk about the alkalinity etc and that I should obtain a kit for this, which I am willing to do, but not sure what I will be looking for and what it in real terms will be telling me.

Dave your original response suggested that my reading of 100 indicated that I am not in a soft area as such and that I will have limes ale problems, therefore this seems in contradiction to MWJB's reply.

In very simplistic terms, if only to humour my lack of scientific understanding, I need to know how to get 'clean' water for use in a new coffee machine, in the most cost effective way and that will not cause problems down the line with regards to the machine i.e. no limescale.

I have looked at the Osmio Zero website and that does not give much info on the use of their product. I cannot find out for instance what minerals are replaced once taken out and my understanding is that as humans we need some of these minerals. I have also read that after 5 years the system needs replacing which makes it an expensive option.

A cry for help please.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Lesd said:


> I have looked at the Osmio Zero website and that does not give much info on the use of their product. I cannot find out for instance what minerals are replaced once taken out and my understanding is that as humans we need some of these minerals. I have also read that after 5 years the system needs replacing which makes it an expensive option.
> 
> A cry for help please.


 As humans, you will be getting all the minerals you need from your food...if your diet is such that you need the minerals in water, then you have other problems. Osmio lifed the system for 5 years, but with replacement parts, not reason why it can't last much much longer and they are even considering, or might have already introduced a full refurbishment process. 100 is not so hard, but limescale will form, just slower.

I did a detailed review on the Osmio Zero:

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/01/06/osmio-zero/

and follow up

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/07/14/osmio-zero-6-months-later/


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## Stox (Jul 19, 2020)

I see you're in East Sussex. I live in Hove and, although there may be exceptions elsewhere in the county, I would expect your water to be hard to very hard.

I'm still using a combination of a jug filter, in-tank filter, and regular descaling. A search for a more permanent solution got me to the East Midlands Water site that offers a number of interesting looking systems e.g.

https://www.eastmidlandswater.com/easy-change-reverse-osmosis-system/3828

They also offer a counter-top RO system but I really don't know how this would compare to the Osmio system.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Stox......I did go onto the Southern Water website and put in my postcode to find out my water details. I live near Rye and my water is fed from local reservoirs that have given the water readings as stated above. Understandably your water supply will be fed from reservoirs, underground acquifers etc that are local to you and indeed a lot of East Sussex is regarded as hard but my area apparently is not. As the likes of Southern Water have to provide detailed information on water quality on a regular basis I assume that the information they are giving me is correct. Perhaps I am just lucky to be living in a pocket on East Sussex that benefits from better quality water.

Dave thanks for the further info. I will take a look at the video reviews you mention. I may also speak to Osmio to ascertain what their long term views are on the Zero. Also if I kind of live with the 100 reading of CaCO3 (not sure I will, would prefer to deal with that and get it lower) you say that it will still cause limescale but slower. Would therefore regular descales (not sure what kind of regularity would be needed) deal with that? Furthermore what level of Magnesium is acceptable as the 100, I believe, only refers to CaCO3?

Thanks again

Les


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

I'd just get the Osmio and not worry. (I did). It sits on the counter and is ready for when you need it. The offerer forum members is good, and set of filters last ages and cost in the region of £55. As @MWJB suggested earlier, just get a drop test kit and test your water yourself, you know where you stand then.

As for the minerals, as @DavecUKsays, there is no need to worry about what you'd lose from a few cups of coffee each day at max 60ml per cup, (unless you're drinking Gallons a day).


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> MWJB you say my water info shown above does not indicate high levels of Calcium carbonate, which I understand is the cause of limescale and therefore the most important thing that needs addressing with coffee machines. However you also talk about the alkalinity etc and that I should obtain a kit for this, which I am willing to do, but not sure what I will be looking for and what it in real terms will be telling me.


 The temporary hardness (AKA bicarbonate, AKA alkalinity as CaCO3) is the biggest indicator of scaling & has the smallest tolerance for good boiler water. Therefore, this is the value you need to pay most attention to. Your total hardness of 100mg/l as CaCO3 (includes both calcium & magnesium) is only part of the story. If your alkalinity is 40-50mg/l as CaCO3, your water falls within recommended boiler water settings. But if your water is typical in it's proportions of total hardness v alkalinity, you might have more like 80mg/L alkalinity which will be bad for scaling.

Average UK water might be more like 160mg/l total hardness, 130mg/L alkalinity so your water authority's description of "soft" seems reasonable. Both values can exceed 200mg/l for some UK waters.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

MWJB.....is this what I need? This is on Amazon


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> MWJB.....is this what I need? This is on Amazon


 Looks just the ticket.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi

So I have used the 'kit' and the results I get are as follows:

*Tap water: (KH value in dKH)*

between 4.8 and 4.5

between 1.7136 and 1.6065 quoted as meq/L

*Brita filtered water: (KH value in dKH)*

between 0.6 and 0.3

between 0.2142 and 0.1071 quoted as meq/L

I have absolutely no idea what all that means. At the beginning of this thread I gave the figures supplied by Southern Water of 40 Ca mg/l and 100 CaCO3 mg/l. Nothing is shown for Magnesium readings and not sure if that changes things. I have also not checked the Southern Water figures, I don't have the means to do that unless I presumably buy another kit of some kind? If I need to do this can you steer me in the direction of what kit/s to get for what readings needed?

Re the TDS, I have used the meter again and they have changed, which may be what happens generally, the readings today being 157 from the tap and 92 from the Brita jug.

I look forward to hearing from you with regards to what all of the above means.

Thanks

Les


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi MWJB

I have looked at one of your emails above in which you say:

The temporary hardness (AKA bicarbonate, AKA alkalinity as CaCO3) is the biggest indicator of scaling & has the smallest tolerance for good boiler water. Therefore, this is the value you need to pay most attention to. Your total hardness of 100mg/l as CaCO3 (includes both calcium & magnesium) is only part of the story. If your alkalinity is 40-50mg/l as CaCO3, your water falls within recommended boiler water settings. But if your water is typical in it's proportions of total hardness v alkalinity, you might have more like 80mg/L alkalinity which will be bad for scaling.

I found on Wikipedia that to get to the readings I think we are looking for you multiply the figures I show above by 17.86 which would give me the following results:

1. between 85.728 and 80.37 mg.

2. between 10.716 and 5.38 mg. (with Brita filter use)

Assuming my figures are correct are we saying that from the tap, although my water readings based upon Southern Water website details are shown as 40Ca mg/l and 100 CaCO3 mg/l, that I do not have 'soft' water as such? As I said no MgCO3 readings are provided and the Southern Water report does not show any Magnesium readings at all. If that is the case then presumably other household appliances such as washing machines, dishwashers, kettles, central heating system (rads and boiler) could all be subjected to scaling but I am not sure to what degree.

Should I be looking for some kind of total house water softening system or are the above figures actually not too bad, albeit you say in your paragraph above that 80 mg/L alkalinity would be bad for scaling.

I look forward to your response.

Thanks

Les


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> Assuming my figures are correct are we saying that from the tap, although my water readings based upon Southern Water website details are shown as 40Ca mg/l and 100 CaCO3 mg/l, that I do not have 'soft' water as such?


 Yes, your water is "soft" in the grand scale of things. But you don't just want soft, or super soft, you want 40-50mg/L as CaCO3. Waters that meet the ideal requirement are very, very rare.

You may not have any/significant magnesium in your water.

So you have ~83mg/L alkalinity from the tap & ~6mg/L from the Brita jug (seems a big drop, maybe double check?). Mix 1 part tap water to 1 part Brita water, you can do this super quick on regular kitchen scales.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Amazon have the following kits if I need these as well although it is getting expensive but maybe worth it in the long run. Presumably the Calcium test should give a reading of either 40 or 100 to correspond with Sothern Water.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> Amazon have the following kits if I need these as well although it is getting expensive but maybe worth it in the long run. Presumably the Calcium test should give a reading of either 40 or 100 to correspond with Sothern Water.


 I wouldn't bother with either of these.

If you want to know your total hardness (GH) then get a drop kit for that specifically...still, not sure I'd bother.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi MWJB

So, tests repeated and they were as follows:

*1. Tap water used earlier: (KH value in dKH)*

3.5

1.2495 meq/L

*2. Brita filtered water used earlier: (KH value in dKH)*

the same as earlier (exactly) - between 0.6 and 0.3

*3. Fresh Tap water: (KH value in dKH)*

3.2

1.1424 meq/L

*4. Tap water and Brita Water combined 1:1 (water used earlier): (KH value in dKH)*

between 2.2 and 1.9

between 0.7854 and 0.6783 meq/L

Again by multiplying the above figures by 17.86 we get:

1. between 62.51 mg.

2. same as before - between 10.716 and 5.38 mg. (with Brita filter use)

3. 57.152 mg

4. between 39.292 and 33.934 mg (combined water 1:1, tap and Brita)

So given the above figures where do I stand now?

Do you have an explanation as to why the figures may have changed from using the original tap water and also a fresh drawing from a running tap? Is this normal, perhaps water coming from the tap does fluctuate throughout the day?

Bottom line, is my water OK to use in a coffee machine from the tap, as a 1:1 mix or from the Brita filter? Would 1 or even 2 or all 3 be OK to use? If more than 1 is OK which one should I use to safeguard the machine albeit I will still do descales as necessary but not sure what the time period for these will be, do you have a view on this?

By the way, thank you so much for all of this. I do not profess to know anything about this subject and exactly what these figures are telling us, you certainly do, and it's important for me to ensure that I take care of expensive coffee maker.

I assume based upon the above that one of the water figures suggest that I do not need to use an RO machine or water softener system or bottled water but if you feel I do then please say and which, in your opinion, would be best.

Thanks

Les


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> So given the above figures where do I stand now?


 I'd use 1.5-2 parts tap to 1 part Brita. I can't explain the higher previous reading I'm afraid.

I haven't descaled in recent years.

Of course, you can use RO & remineralise instead, or use bottled water (very little choice here), but why not use what you have...probably least faff. I don't think that there is a "best" option, as long as you're getting the KH/alkalinity in the right range. It's mostly a matter of what is convenient.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

So I rely on the Southern Water readings for the CaCO3 of 100 and don't query that, take it for gospel as being correct. Presumably then a Magnesium reading is not needed albeit that does get taken into consideration for the overall scale propensity, doesn't it?

Then the 100 CaCO3 needs to be read alongside the alkalinity and I should try and get to something in the 50 range for that, hence your suggestion to use a combination of tap and Brita water to get to that sort of number?

What does the alkalinity do, stop the CaCO3 from being able to create limescale?

All of this is just for the coffee machine, should I be doing anything for other household appliances or not really necessary?

If the above is enough to slow down or prevent limescale then that surely is better than having to run to the cost of an RO system or the inconvenience of bottled water. Does not alkalinity come into play with bottled water then?

Why is it important to make sure the alkalinity is at a certain level, not too high and not to low? Does the alkalinity figure bear a relationship to the CaCO3 figure? If so surely bottled water should be checked?

How often would you recommend descaling using the ratio of water you suggest?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Lesd said:


> How often would you recommend descaling using the ratio of water you suggest?


 What machine do you have and how easy is it to descale?


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Hi ajohn

i don't have a machine as yet. About to buy one, seriously considering the ACS Minima or a HX, something like a Bezzera BZ10 or ECM perhaps.

The correct water usage came up as a subject and has escalated I'm afraid.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you go for a water system such as the Osmio Zero desktop water system, you will never have to worry about descaling. I never used to keep machines long enough to worry about scale, however, when I retired this suddenly became a factor. At the time, I had an early Londinium and in order to descale you have to remove the boiler and soak in a bucket, so for me, the Osmio was the answer.

This was on offer but has now expired however if you contact @Mark Osmiothere maybe future offers coming up (or not!)


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

@Lesd

Bottled water will usually list bicarbonate in mg/l from which you can calculate alkalinity.

Forget "limescale" and forget hard and soft.

Calcium and Magnesium will form carbonate scale in the presence of bicarbonate as the water is heated. There's a threshold which depends on the balance between Calcium and Magnesium (Hardness) and bicarbonate alkalinity, so depending on the quantities of both you might be able to heat water to 90c before scaling occurs or even under pressure to 120c or more before scale deposits. You need BOTH bicarbonate alkalinity and hardness (from either Calcium or Magnesium) for scale to form.

In order to determine if your water will scale you need to know three things: 1) The temperature the water is heated to in the boiler, 2) Hardness (Calcium and Magnesium expressed as CaCO3) 3) Alkalinity

Alkalinity is good because it acts as a buffer to acidity, this prevents acidic corrosion in boilers. It is also important for the taste of your coffee, but your tastes will vary e.g you might prefer 80mg/l alkalinity to 40mg/l.

Regarding your tap water questions: Tap water varies. Bottled water also appears to vary based on tests some people have carried out but that's anecdotal.

There are other things to consider too e.g chloride, sulphate, sodium, silica etc. These other things won't form scale but you might be sensitive to the taste and there may be some corrosion risk.

Create a copy of this. Put in the alkalinity and max temp you'll be heating the machine to and it'll spit out the max hardness you can have in the water before it starts to scale. You'll probably find you need to accept you'll need to descale the service boiler, which is relatively painless compared to the brew boiler.


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## RichC (Mar 12, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Yes, your water is "soft" in the grand scale of things. But you don't just want soft, or super soft, you want 40-50mg/L as CaCO3. Waters that meet the ideal requirement are very, very rare.


 Is being below this bad for the machine? Or just bad for the flavours? My tap water is 15 mg/L as CaCO3 which is super soft, I have been mineralising it with bicarb to reach ~40 mg/L. Just wondering what using it straight would do.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RichC said:


> Is being below this bad for the machine? Or just bad for the flavours? My tap water is 15 mg/L as CaCO3 which is super soft, I have been mineralising it with bicarb to reach ~40 mg/L. Just wondering what using it straight would do.


 Depends on what your boiler is made of, much lower than 40mg/L can be considered corrosive. Also very low alkalinity can increase the perception of acidity, even at a nominal extraction (e.g. not under-extracted), so your coffee could come out brighter than expected...this aspect is just a matter of preference. Boiler water make up is aimed primarily at controlling scaling & corrosion, less at taste - some water meeting ideal parameters still doesn't taste good & using tastier coffee will make everything better


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@MWJB

So, tests repeated again and they were as follows:

*1. Tap water: (KH value in dKH)*

3.35 (x17.86 = *59.83mg*)

*2. Brita filtered water: (KH value in dKH)*

the same as before (exactly) - 0.45 (x17.86 = *8.04mg*)

*3. Tap water and Brita Water combined 1:1: (KH value in dKH)*

1.75 (x17.86 = *31.26mg*)

*4. Tap water and Brita Water combined 1.5:1: (KH value in dKH)*

1.95 (x17.86 = *34.83mg*)

*5. Tap water and Brita Water combined 3:1: (KH value in dKH)*

2.5 (x17.86 = *44.65mg*)

*6. Tap water and Brita Water combined 4:1: (KH value in dKH)*

2.65 (x17.86 = *47.33mg*)

What is the best combination for me to use of the above?

Do you have anything to add re my other points mentioned in previous messages especially time scales for descaling once I have been able to ascertain the best alkalinity.

Also @Rob1 has given me some other information (see above) and I shall try what he suggests as he mentions that different heat in the boilers will affect things as well.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Scenaros 4, 5 & 6 all look fine. Tweak them based on percieved acidity & your prefernce (more alkalinity will attenuate acidity, assuming a normal extraction, most under-extracted shots will be sour whatever water you use).

The point of tuning your alkalinity is to vastly reduce/eliminate descaling. I don't think about descaling because I don't do it. If you are happy with frequent descaling, just use the straight tap water.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Lesd said:


> The correct water usage came up as a subject and has escalated I'm afraid.


 It's a subject that can get rather complicated that more money can always fix to some degree and added complications of what is ideal for coffee. Outfits like the SCAA will state that and probably relates to taste more than anything else.

Some machines will take filters. On those they will usually state replacement intervals. One may extend life based on tap water hardness. Sage do. Probably the cheapest option with these is to monitor what is coming out periodically as they will have assumed some average hardness. One maker say above a certain level use an alternate source and also test that. This is to cover choosing an unsuitable bottled water. It might also apply to a domestic softening set up, RO etc. Some people on here have been known to blend brands of bottled water.

There are basically 3 ways of softening water. Filters, RO and salt based ion exchange resins. Filters are often used on commercial machines. It's a cheaper area these days as more general interest. Data on what actually comes out is usually scant. People worry about salt on the resin ones but if the did some sums I think they would find it makes negligible difference to their intake. The output from these can be blended with raw tap water. Some units have that facility built in or it can be added. They are in more common use these days in all sorts of places. The same could be done with RO units. Those can be fitted with remineralisation cartridges or raw RO water can be hardened to some degree with soluble compounds. Not sure but think @Rob1 can fill you in on that. Not sure but I think he adds 2 compounds. You may find posts on here about the various ways of reducing and even avoiding scale all together. They can sound rather complicated but aren't really. Rehardening is just adding small amounts of soluble compounds. A comment on the web but I couldn't quickly find a recipe

It involves bicarb (baking soda), epsom salt and distilled water. Mix up the concentrate, add it to your water in small amounts, off you go!

Use of certain brands of bottled water is pretty common. Scaling should be negligible. Bear that in mind. Get as carried away as far as you fancy. Problems can be fixed.

It really is simple. Some do use distilled. I think @DavecUK had or has a web page mentioning use of just baking soda on RO water but not sure where it is. Both distilled and RO water are likely to show some conductivity. It needs to be enough to allow the usual boiler level sensors to work.

HX or DB. Steam boilers generate more scale than brew. It's a temperature effect. Straight HX machine boilers are always at steam temperature. They tend to be harder to use consistently due to brew water temperature variations from a heat exchanger in the boiler. Left standing and it will overheat. No personal experience on the effect that has.  A bit too hot and finally a bit too cold I do have experience of. It can make good coffee but other set ups will change taste. Both can be good. It's a tricky area really.

The flow rate out of a simple RO unit depends on the water main's pressure. In B'ham needing lots for a fish tank I feel it would be acceptable for an espresso machine. Units can be bought with a storage tank that is constantly topped up. Basic units without that are not expensive. The ones for aquarium use the same cartridges. Remineralising - test the water. I'd be inclined to suggest doing that what ever you use.

So some one is going to scale their machine how often to descale. Not much around on that subject but Sage for instance program a hardness reading taken from a test strip into the machine. There is a set procedure for descaling. Problems crop up if there is too much scale for that to remove. The only way to be sure really is to look into the boiler. My DB was a refurb and clearly my descales have been winning. The previous owners wasn't. Sad really as I wondered just how good Sage's idea was. One lady that was on here, expensive machine used to send hers of at some interval for an engineer service. This included checking the boiler for scale. She reckoned they never found any and was going to provide photo's to prove it next time. Bottled water at the time if I remember correctly - a blend.

Scale does 2 things. Alters heating rates of the boiler which can spoil the way PID functions and forms sludge which can get into various parts of the machine and cause problems. Changes to how PID function is what tells me that I have removed scale. Initially by doing 2 on the trot as I thought I hadn't drained the brew boiler. The noises from the steam boiler changed rather a lot. Tinkling sort of sound that petered out very slowly. A more recent one well ahead of schedule and now just gentle boiling noises that fade away. To check for sludge in the boilers I need to take a look and will at some point. Might be a clue that others can use but my excess seems to have been on the extreme side of things.

 Long post. Hope it helps. TBH I suspect all machines need a look and see at some point to be sure or await problems and fix properly. It's called an engineering descale. Make sure it's all gone.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1

I have used your supplied spreadsheet and after putting in some numbers I believe that if I use a mixed ratio of tap water and Brita filtered water I can get my Alkalinity down which in turn would knock down the Bicarbonate if I use the conversion of 61/50 re the alkalinity numbers (I do not have a true Bicarb number, just a conversion from the alkalinity test). I would need to play around some more but I think the alkalinity would need to be more circa 26mg but is this too low? Is there such a thing as too low? It is only when circa this kind of number along with my CaCO3 set at 100, taken from Southern Water (and I do not know if that is accurate, I presumably would have to do some other kind of test for that. I also don't know if that includes Magnesium as my water utility company do not provide the info), that I can get at an acceptable water temperature to not descale.

I don't know at this stage if I will go for a HX or Dual Boiler machine but I don't think it will make that much difference.

I did not have the following figures however: Carbonate, Hydroxide, Citrate and Magnesium. Will not having these figures matter?

If the alkalinity is set low (if 26 is regarded as low) will it change flavours, cause other corrosion issues etc. Will it also depend upon the construction of the boiler/s i.e. copper, brass, stainless steel, nickel etc?


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@ajohn

Thanks for the message. It helps a lot because I think trying to get to the best solution is doing my head in a little. Trying, as we all do, to just introduce a time and cost effective way of either eliminating scale (may well not be totally possible) or reducing it so that descales do not become too regular a need. Management of the situation is what is needed but I need guidance as to how to set that guidance in place and get a routine going that does not make using and enjoying an espresso machine more of a chore. At the end of the day I would like to get a decent cup of coffee from a machine and occasionally have to descale.

You will see my message to @Rob1 above and depending upon what information he comes back with I may be able to get by with my tap water and the Brita filter. If not then I will need to consider bottled water and based upon my current investigations into that I think either Volvic, Tesco Ashbeck or Waitrose own label water may do the job. However I am not sure how any of those impact upon flavour (if at all) and alsso other forms of corrosion if other minerals exist in greater numbers (and what those numbers would need to be).


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1

Having trouble saving the worksheet, can you advise what I need to do?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Lesd said:


> @Rob1
> 
> Having trouble saving the worksheet, can you advise what I need to do?


 Click file, then click 'make a copy'. You can then edit your copy.

As the sheet says, you don't need to fill in individual cells if you know your hardness and alkalinity, you can just alter those two cells directly. The other cells are just used to calculate hardness and alkalinity from the info you find on a spec sheet.

RE: Your water test results. What is the resolution (accuracy) of your kit? Your filter seems quite effective. The one I use has instructions to take a 5ml sample of water but the resolution per drop of reagent is something like 16mg/l, which is no good, so I use a 20ml sample instead to bring the resolution down to about 4mg/l. This means instead of the test indicating my alkalinity is >35 and <52 it indicates it's >45 and <50. Your tap water swinging from one day to the next by 20mg/l might well be normal (I don't test tap water so no idea), but the massive reduction by the filter seems unusual based on observations of others.

RE: Volvic, Ashbeck, Waitrose and any others, the labels have the figures you need.

26mg alkalinity isn't ideal, no. It won't alter extraction but it will affect your perception of acidity. The LI number given on the spreadsheet indicates corrosion potential. Ideal range according to LI is -0.3-+0.3. <-0.3 is progressively more corrosive, >0.3 is progressively scaling. The LI will change depending on temperature. I'm not going to talk about corrosion beyond this. Different materials will tolerate different conditions, of course, and with 316l steel boilers in my Minima I avoid chloride like the plague but happily drain and fill the service boiler with distilled water every 30 days or so, but I don't want to give any advice regarding corrosion beyond saying pay attention to the LI and aim for an alkalinity that will likely produce good coffee (SCAA recommend about 40mg/l).

Your water report seems to have indicated the hardness is 100mg/l CaCO3. This will include Magnesium. If the water report has not explicitly stated the hardness but has instead told you the Calcium is 40mg/l which is 100mg/l as CaCO3 and has not provided a total hardness, you could have more. It's also possible that the water doesn't contain any significant Magnesium. I use one of these kits https://www.amazon.co.uk/API-Freshwater-Aquarium-Water-1-Count/dp/B003SNCHMA/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=gh%2Fkh+drop+kit&qid=1624110972&sr=8-1.

You probably don't need to test for hardness.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> If not then I will need to consider bottled water and based upon my current investigations into that I think either Volvic, Tesco Ashbeck or Waitrose own label water may do the job.


 Volvic may not have significantly less alkalinity than your tap water, some people have tested the alkalinity to be closer to 80mg/L. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't use it, but be aware what you're getting into & seems a lot of hassle for little gain over tap & Brita.

Ashbeck is low in alkalinity & pH, it doesn't sit in any current boiler water recommendation.

So that basically leaves Waitrose Lockhills (not Waitrose essentials from any other source - check the label).


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1

The kit I purchased is shown above in the thread, Salifert Carbonate Hardness/Alkalinity. Not sure why they say hardness when it is measuring the alkalinity. The literature says that a lower resolution of 2ml of water can be used but they recommend 4ml of water, which I did. Nothing else is mentioned re resolution.

You say the 26mg is too low but as you can see from the above figures I supplied the Brita is reducing the alkalinity down to 8mg. Perhaps it is getting rid of too much as we use the water in the kettle and our current Nespresso machine, perhaps we just need to use the tap water with a reading of circa 60mg, but then that may be too high.

You say my filter seems very effective, as I say it is a Brita Maxtra+ and changed regularly, every month or whenever the indicator on the jug says it needs changing.

You talk about the spreadsheet and LI figures, where are you getting figures from? You also mention Chloride and using distilled water. How do you get the distilled water into the boiler? What do you do to avoid Chloride?

Based upon SCAA is alkalinity meant to be between 40mg and 60mg? This would make bicarbonate circa 49 and 73, is that correct?

What do you use for water? If bottled do you use as is or do you add anything else to it?

I am almost certainly going to get the ACS Minima, are you happy with it? Possible alternatives would be a Bezzera BZ10 or ECM Mechanika V Slim but these are HX machines.

I have got to say that there just seems so much to all of this. Is this not off-putting to most people or do they just not do as much research as this and just descale on a regular basis to be on the safe side?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> The kit I purchased is shown above in the thread, Salifert Carbonate Hardness/Alkalinity. Not sure why they say hardness when it is measuring the alkalinity.


 carbonate hardness (AKA KH - K comes from karbonate) is the old name for alkalinity, which was also known as temporary hardness. They change the names of these terms every few years just to ensure everyone remains confused


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@MWJB

How do people test Volvic water for alkalinity, with a drop test again, same I have done with the tap water? The labels of these waters do not give you the information that one needs and based upon @Rob1 recent reply to me he says he avoids chloride like the plague, well they all contain that and I do not know if there is an acceptable level or not.

Apart from just taking the plunge with my own tap water and reducing the alkalinity by using some of the Brita Water by a given ratio I cannot see what else can be done. Whatever I do in that regard I cannot get to a level that avoids descaling unless I make the alkalinity level somewhere in the region of 25 or 26, which I am advised is too low.

It sounds as though I need to get to a suitable alkalinity that works within the suggested parameters of 40mg to 60mg but as I say any figure will mean scale build up but presumably the higher I can get with boiler temperature the less scale will be formed, is that correct?

Should like be this difficult?


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1

I forget to say that the original figures shown in the thread were possibly incorrect. Perhaps the figures were misread or something because 3 further tests have been carried out and they re all in a similar range. So I think from the tap the alkalinity is circa 60mg.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> How do people test Volvic water for alkalinity, with a drop test again, same I have done with the tap water?


 Yes, you could do. Natural water sources vary sometimes during the year & from year to year, there may be years between samples being analysed. This is all normal.



Lesd said:


> The labels of these waters do not give you the information that one needs


 They give the values as ion, there are set formulas for converting to CaCO3. Calcium *4.2, Magnesium *2.5, bicarbonate *0.82. The bottled water manufacturers are probably assuming that you will buy the water & pour it down your throat, not into a machine 



Lesd said:


> Should like be this difficult?


 It's easy when you identify what it is you need to focus on, I thought you got there a page ago?


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1@MWJB

Just checked the SCAA website and they say:



Characteristic

Target

Acceptable Range

Odor 1

Clean/Fresh, Odor free



Color 2

Clear color



Total Chlorine

O mg/L



TDS 3

150 mg/L

75 - 250 mg/L

Calcium Hardness

4 grains or 68 mg/L

1-5 grains or 17 mg/L - 85 mg/L

Total Alkalinity

40 mg/L

At or near 40 mg/L

pH

7.0

6.5 - 7.5

Sodium

10 mg/L

At or near 10 mg/L


So alkalinity should be 40mg/L (preferably exactly that or vey close to) and the Calcium Hardness, by which they presumably mean the CaCO3 (?), should be circa 68 mg/L or acceptable 17 to 85. Mine is 100 CaCO3 so already outside those parameters regardless of what I try to do with the allkalinity.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

Perhaps the only way to get to any of the figures the SCAA suggest is to use RO and then add back the minerals that you need/require. But then RO machines often uses filters of one kind or another that add back essential minerals but to what level or quantity I do not know.

And then you have the additional cost of such a machine which if for instance I went for the Osmio Zero would be £399 plus ongoing filter cost. And I understand that the company believe the lifespan of the Osmio Zero is 5 years after which it will need either replacing or parts swapped out etc.

How much does owning and running an espresso machine actually cost have you ever worked that out? Machine, additional items such as grinder, tamper etc, maintenance, RO or alternative water source, beans.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I wouldn't take the SCAA figures too literally, another 15mg/L total hardness isn't going to be a problem. "At or near to 40mg/L", means just that, not 40mg/L exactly.

The European side of the SCA (SCAE, who merged with SCAA a few years ago & now is all called "SCA") did a follow up scientific study, after the release of Water for Coffee book & has wider tolerance of 40-75mg/L, but for the higher end they recommend more hardness, like 175mg/L total hardness. Sadly, they withdrew this paper from free public access.

Both essentially allow for a GH:KH ratio up to 2.1 or 2.3:1. Your water has a GH:KH ratio of 1.67:1, at 40-50mg/L you are good to go.

All basically concur with Jim Schulman's Insanely long water FAQ from 19 years ago.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Lesd said:


> @Rob1
> 
> The kit I purchased is shown above in the thread, Salifert Carbonate Hardness/Alkalinity. Not sure why they say hardness when it is measuring the alkalinity. The literature says that a lower resolution of 2ml of water can be used but they recommend 4ml of water, which I did. Nothing else is mentioned re resolution.
> 
> ...


 So how accurate is the test kit you're using? e.g. with mine 1 drop = 17.9; 2 drops = 35.8; 3 drops 53.7; 4 drops 71.6....so if my tap water sample changes colour at 3 drops and filtering it brings it down to 1 drop that's not necessarily right. The water in reality is between 53.7 and 71.5 and after filtration between 0 and 35.7 so the real value could easily be 54mg/l from the tap and 35mg/l filtered....that said it's perfectly possible your filter really is that effective (I have no idea).

The LI figures are from the Langelier Index. The spreadsheet is just an interactive version of Jim Schulman's water FAQ linked to at the bottom of the first page of the spreadsheet.

I pour distilled water into the boiler by removing the anti-vacuum valve. It's less faff than messing about with the reservoir and running the pump on and off. I avoid chloride by using distilled water. For filling the reservoir/actual use, I remineralise 3 litres at a time with Magnesium bicarbonate and sodium bicarbonate solutions. This might sound like a lot of trouble to go through but if you want a specific and consistent alkalinity and hardness it's necessary. Water varies from the tap and filters, and descaling a brew boiler is such a PITA I'd prefer to just spend 5 minute remineralising a batch of distilled water once/twice a week. If I ever got sick of getting the distilled water into the service boiler I'd just remineralise with sodium and potassium bicarbonate solutions. The only thing that would happen then is alkalinity would increase as the boiler is used for steam, but scaling would be impossible without magnesium or calcium so it would't be an issue. I think there are a few people using RO and DI water with just sodium bicarb used to bring alkalinity up to 40-60mg/l...

Your alkalinity=bicarbonate numbers look accurate but I'm not sure why you're concerned with this as your tests are giving you the alkalinity. There's no need to convert to bicarbonate.

I'm very happy with the Minima, especially with the bianca paddle added on the group for flow profiling. I wouldn't get a HX aside from maybe the Mara X.

People probably don't do this much research, or descale their machines as often as they should. Usually they wait until their machine stops working or leaks to find out what went wrong.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Lesd RO isn't just for limescale...from my own perspective, I don't want the ditch water taint, the chlorine, flouride or anything else in the water. I prefer to start clean and add back what I want. After more than 20 years it's stood the test of time as a method of keeping machine faults to a minimum.



> How much does owning and running an espresso machine actually cost have you ever worked that out? Machine, additional items such as grinder, tamper etc, maintenance, RO or alternative water source, beans.


 I think if these things are major concerns, then go for pour over coffee, it's affordable even for people on a tight budget. Owning and running an espresso machine costs money



electricity


accessories


good coffee (not cheap)


Grinder


maintenance


parts


How much no one can know for sure, it varies by machine, person and situation of use. It's also much more expensive if you don't do the maintenance yourself. Hence, the popularity of forums like this one.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> Perhaps the only way to get to any of the figures the SCAA suggest is to use RO and then add back the minerals that you need/require.


 RO is always an option, but the SCAA figures have a wide tolerance for everything except KH/alkalinity.

You can conceivably find groundwater within their spec, natural water supplies are massively varied.

It's not hard to find water that can be cut back to the KH/alkalinity levels of the SCAA spec by mixing with RO/distilled/zerowater.

You've left out bags of coffee in your cost exercise, 250g a week at £12 a bag, about £3k over 5 years


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Lesd said:


> How do people test Volvic water for alkalinity, with a drop test again, same I have done with the tap water? The labels of these waters do not give you the information that one needs and based upon @Rob1 recent reply to me he says he avoids chloride like the plague, well they all contain that and I do not know if there is an acceptable level or not.
> 
> Apart from just taking the plunge with my own tap water and reducing the alkalinity by using some of the Brita Water by a given ratio I cannot see what else can be done. Whatever I do in that regard I cannot get to a level that avoids descaling unless I make the alkalinity level somewhere in the region of 25 or 26, which I am advised is too low.
> 
> ...


 You can test volvic in the same way as any other water. The label on the bottle gives you what should be accurate values.

Acceptable levels of chloride vary from source to source and boiler material to boiler material. In 316l steel SCC (stress corrosion cracking) has been observed with concentrations as low as 10mg/l. In environments where water evaporates and salts deposit on hot metal surfaces this can be an issue at any concentration. The nature of service boilers means anything dissolved in the water will concentrate as you're releasing steam to foam the milk. Other sources suggest anywhere up to 15 mg/l is fine for various grades of steel. With brass, La Marzocco recommend below 30mg/l.

I'm not sure what you mean with the last paragraph....40-60mg/l alkalinity is recommended, hardness doesn't matter so much. Ideally alkalinity will be 40-60mg/l and hardness will be below the point scaling would occur. If you can't get there with your water then that's that. The higher the boiler temp goes the more scaling you'll get. When scale forms alkalinity and hardness drop until scaling stops.

The only thing you could do is filter water down to the lowest hardness you can get and then bring alkalinity up with sodium or potassium bicarbonate. Depending on how your filter works sodium might already be quite high post filtration so potassium bicarb might be a better option.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1@MWJB@DavecUK

sorry are we not agreeing above, I say 40 to 60 mg/l and so do you? Am I not understanding something?

Anyhow I cannot get to the hardness level the spreadsheet suggests and so I would either have to introduce something else into the home... a water softening system or RO machine etc or presumably live with my current situation (maybe with use of Brita filter as well to reduce some parameters) but also descale boilers on a regular basis. Any suggestions as to what time lines I should look to descale?

Or alternatively use bottled water but then more calculations need to be made and probably there is no such bottle of water out there that meets all the parameters necessary.

I am right aren't I that all these so called acceptable parameters are to avoid descaling and if one is prepared to descale based on an appropriate timescale/schedule then that should be OK?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> Anyhow I cannot get to the hardness level the spreadsheet suggests and so I would either have to introduce something else into the home


 At 40mg/L alkalinity your total hardness is fine,



Lesd said:


> Or alternatively use bottled water but then more calculations need to be made and probably there is no such bottle of water out there that meets all the parameters necessary.


 Waitrose Lockhills meets the nominal values suggested by SCAE/SCA (2016), Water for Coffee book (2015) & SCAA (2012) allowing for a little more KH.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@MWJB

thanks for that so I could play around a bit with the tap water and the brita to get to 40mg/l alkalinity and my CaCO3 is ok at 100mg/l.

as a safeguard I can always do some descales periodically which should keep things in good working conditions

re the water I looked up Waitrose and they don't seem to be selling Lockhills any more only their Essential range, which is high in Chloride. Any other known acceptable alternatives or shall I just do as mentioned above?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> thanks for that so I could play around a bit with the tap water and the brita to get to 40mg/l alkalinity and my CaCO3 is ok at 100mg/l.


 Only your tap water that is raw is 100mg/L, won't the Brita knock a bit of hardness off? Not that it is necessary.

Waitrose Lockhills is in the Essential range, I bought 8L yesterday.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@MWJB

so do you add anything to the Waitrose water to increase any minerals or reduce the chloride etc? It's cheap enough as water so that may be an easier option if it takes care of alkalinity etc.

have you ever done any checks with some of the kits on the numbers involved in the water?


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@MWJB I think the Essential is Stretton Hills


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> @MWJB
> 
> so do you add anything to the Waitrose water to increase any minerals or reduce the chloride etc? It's cheap enough as water so that may be an easier option if it takes care of alkalinity etc.
> 
> have you ever done any checks with some of the kits on the numbers involved in the water?


 Pondlab KH drop kit & Waitrose Lockhills.

1 drop blue

2 drop blue

3 drops yellow = 3 degrees KH 53mg/L alkalinity.

I have been known to grind up the roasted seeds of the coffee cherry and add them to the Lockhills  Typically, that is the only other substance I bring into contact with the Lockhills.

I have in the past done a ton of water mixing & testing, my take away was find a simple, repeatable, low faff solution...then forget about water & pay more attention to finding great coffee, selecting the right grind size & ratio.

Of coarse, anyone is welcome to build whatever level of complexity they like into any process, for me, it's too far down the road of diminishing returns.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> @MWJB I think the Essential is Stretton Hills


 It is not & has not been for several years.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Lesd said:


> @Rob1@MWJB@DavecUK
> 
> sorry are we not agreeing above, I say 40 to 60 mg/l and so do you? Am I not understanding something?
> 
> ...


 It seems like it. I couldn't make sense of what you were saying here: "I need to get to a suitable *alkalinity that works within the suggested parameters of 40mg to 60mg* but as I say *any figure will mean scale build up* but *presumably the higher I can get with boiler temperature the less scale will be formed*, is that correct?"

You're aiming for between 40-60mg/l alkalinity. In the case of cutting your tap water down then 40mg/l is probably the only thing that will work to avoid scale. This is assuming the hardness is reduced equal to the alkalinity, but I don't know how the filter works...maybe it reduced hardness even more? At 40mg/l alkalinity, with a boiler running at 125c, your hardness can go up to something like 50mg/l before you see scale. It doesn't matter about the service boiler, the only realistic way you can avoid scale there without very regular flushing is to use water with no hardness. So probably don't worry too much about scale in the service boiler or service boiler temperatures. At the brew boiler temp of around 105c (can't remember the offset) you'll be able to use water up to 100mg/l hardness without scale at 40mg/l alkalinity.

The acceptable parameters from the SCA are for standardising the water used in cupping. They're supposed to be broadly ideal for taste too. In terms of boiler safe water you're avoiding both corrosion and scaling.

I don't know how often you should descale. I'd prefer a regular very light descaling to a heavy one every 6 months. Less big flakes getting lodged places and less buildup, and less aggressive acid solutions.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1

My apologies, when I wrote the above paragraph I was looking at the spreadsheet incorrectly and thought that as figures changed the tolerance of temperature was changing but it is in fact the hardness tolerance changing. My mistake.

@Rob1@MWJB

We know that when I use the Alkalinity test kit the figures drastically reduce to circa 8mg when testing the water filtered through the Brita jug. However what we don't know is what other variances may be changing especially the CaCO3 which, according to Southern Water, is circa 100. However that presumably is from the source point, i.e. after immediate treatment, not at my home. Of course other variants may also change between treatment point and the tap and so I cannot test everything for changes at the tap.

However one figure that we know is important is the CaCO3 as this plays a part in the overall scheme of things, especially @Rob1with the figures used via the spreadsheet.

Therefore is there a direct correlation between the alkalinity and the CaCO3? If the alkalinity is reducing from circa 60mg to circa 8mg would the CaCO3 be reducing by a similar percentage? The Brita filter of course may filter certain minerals and chemicals more than another. If this is the case should I buy other east kits such as a Calcium and a Magnesium? If I buy these would I simply take the results of each and times them by 2.5 to get the CaCO3 number?

if the Brita filter is reducing the CaCO3 by a fair and acceptable amount then is it possible to use that water and perhaps add some bicarbonate to increase the alkalinity thus giving me a more boiler friendly water.

It may also be, we just don't know, that the Brita is also filtering corrosive minerals such as chloride, which may also be beneficial.

Perhaps my understanding of things in this subject are not on the right track and the above may just be totally incorrect. Happy to be corrected if need be.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1@MWJB

I have just read an article on Clive Coffee re water and they seem to pay a lot of attention to the TDS and cite the SCAA who say that a reading of over 35ppm but below 85ppm is acceptable. They seem to be referring to that as water hardness albeit I thought that was a Total Dissolved Solids figure which includes other minerals that do not contribute to water hardness as is generally referred to i.e. that which can cause scale. Is my understanding correct or have I misunderstood?

My Brita water TDS ppm is circa 87/88 but has risen on occasion to about 92.

Not sure if any of this has a bearing on the above and if so whether adding, as also said above, something like bicarbonate would alter matters.

I suppose I could also use a Zero Water filter jug and if need be mix that with the tap water to reintroduce some minerals or mix it with the Brita water. The Zero water jug suggests it takes out everything just like RO but I don't know what would need to be added back.

https://zero water.co.uk

Your thoughts?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Lesd said:


> We know that when I use the Alkalinity test kit the figures drastically reduce to circa 8mg when testing the water filtered through the Brita jug. However what we don't know is what other variances may be changing especially the CaCO3 which, according to Southern Water, is circa 100. However that presumably is from the source point, i.e. after immediate treatment, not at my home. Of course other variants may also change between treatment point and the tap and so I cannot test everything for changes at the tap.
> 
> Therefore is there a direct correlation between the alkalinity and the CaCO3? If the alkalinity is reducing from circa 60mg to circa 8mg would the CaCO3 be reducing by a similar percentage? The Brita filter of course may filter certain minerals and chemicals more than another. If this is the case should I buy other east kits such as a Calcium and a Magnesium? If I buy these would I simply take the results of each and times them by 2.5 to get the CaCO3 number?
> 
> ...


 As I've asked already, what is the accuracy of the test?

Alkalinity comes from CaCO3, as does hardness. When Calcium Carbonate is dissolved in water is becomes Calcium Bicarbonate.

You wouldn't multiply Magnesium and Calcium by 2.5 no. The spreadsheet will calculate it for you, you can view the calculations it is performing there. There's no need to test for Calcium and Magnesium, just GH. The API kit I linked to has two simple hardness and alkalinity tests.

You could add some bicarbonate, yes. Or cut it with plain tap water.

The Brita filter isn't removing chloride.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lesd said:


> I have just read an article on Clive Coffee re water and they seem to pay a lot of attention to the TDS and cite the SCAA who say that a reading of over 35ppm but below 85ppm is acceptable. They seem to be referring to that as water hardness albeit I thought that was a Total Dissolved Solids figure which includes other minerals that do not contribute to water hardness as is generally referred to i.e. that which can cause scale. Is my understanding correct or have I misunderstood?


 They have confused you, ignore them. @Rob1 knows more about this than almost anything I have read from "industry" sources.

TDS does not correlate to alkalinity. The more different stuff you have in the water the higher your TDS, even if total hardness (Ca & Mg) remains the same. Next to no use.



Lesd said:


> I suppose I could also use a Zero Water filter jug and if need be mix that with the tap water to reintroduce some minerals or mix it with the Brita water. The Zero water jug suggests it takes out everything just like RO but I don't know what would need to be added back.


 I have a Zerowater jug, current filter is on the way out, hence I bought some Lockhills to tide me over. It does remove everything, mine is the small jug, OK for making the odd shot & regular refills when boiling kettles, filters about 500ml at a time, overfill it & it can stall. I'd probably find this frustrating if making lots of shots each day. Filters are £12.50 to £15 each, change every 2 months, they weigh about 600g each (that's a lot of Lockhills bottles & quite a few Brita filters).

You would know how much to add back, same protocol as Brita.

Tap = 60mg/l alkalinity.

Brita = 6 mg/l - 3 parts tap (180) plus 1 part Brita (6) = 186/4 parts =47mg/L.

Zerowater = 0mg/l - 3 parts tap (180) plus 1part Zero (0) = 180/4 = 45mg/L.

Works the same for total hardness as CaCO3, mg/L being a mass fraction.

I think we're going round in circles now. I'm pretty sure all the answers you need are contained in this thread, so this is my last post on the matter


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Lesd said:


> I have just read an article on Clive Coffee re water and they seem to pay a lot of attention to the TDS and cite the SCAA who say that a reading of over 35ppm but below 85ppm is acceptable. They seem to be referring to that as water hardness albeit I thought that was a Total Dissolved Solids figure which includes other minerals that do not contribute to water hardness as is generally referred to i.e. that which can cause scale. Is my understanding correct or have I misunderstood?
> 
> My Brita water TDS ppm is circa 87/88 but has risen on occasion to about 92.
> 
> ...


 In what regard do they say it's acceptable?

If you add sodium bicarbonate TDS would increase.

You would need to add back something contributing alkalinity. If you wanted some hardness you would have to add back something contributing to hardness too.


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## Lesd (Jun 1, 2021)

@Rob1

Rob you have the ACS Minima, what do generally find are the best temperature settings for the brew and steam boilers, set via the PID?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I have service set to 125c and vary brew but lets say 93c generally. The offset is programmed into the PID for the brew boiler at 15c so actual brew boiler temp would be <110c.


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