# What Makes the Difference ?



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

This is a genuine question and intended to knock / promote any machines - its something that is puzzling me.

You have two home coffee machines of similar spec (lets say Hx, vibe pump, similar group, similar boiler capacity etc). One costs £800, the other costs £2000

Both machines are owned by coffee obsessed individuals and they replace the factory baskets with VST

Assuming all other variables are the constant (bean, grind, technique etc) why would the shot vary significantly ?

Is there additional technology in the more expensive machine ? Is it a case of same innards, just better quality components ?

I guess that the day at BB will help answer this from a taste perspective, its more a question of why

Thanks


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

big question . when you wee thinking about this Did you have specific machines in mind


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

This is a very good question. My thoughts (and these are no more than guesses):

HX Coffee machines at this level are very similar and based (mostly) on standard components. An HX and thermosyphons are simple technology but they details of how they function gets complicated - but how well they work will depend on the details of how they are put together (the arrangement and diameter of pipework, the mass of metal involved, where and how valves are put into the flow path etc.). So I suspect temperature stability on two very similar machines could vary depending on just how well they are engineered. I know of no 'additional technology' in expensive HX machines - I think you are paying for quality of engineering and the design of the box.

BB has very in depth reviews on most of their machines and most of the differences between cheap and expensive machines of similar spec seem to come down to just how well they are made.


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

I had one machine in mind but I dont want it to get into a war against a machine, hence keeping it generic. As I only see a couple of buttons & knobs and a round lump to fit a portafilter on I am interested to understand the differences beyond there. Are we talking more / better technology ? Is it investment in better components ? Is it better chrome that hikes the price ?

I dont know, and coming from an engineering background 'because it is' doesn't work for me


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

RoloD said:


> This is a very good question. My thoughts (and these are no more than guesses):
> 
> HX Coffee machines at this level are very similar and based (mostly) on standard components. An HX and thermosyphons are simple technology but they details of how they function gets complicated - but how well they work will depend on the details of how they are put together (the arrangement and diameter of pipework, the mass of metal involved, where and how valves are put into the flow path etc.). So I suspect temperature stability on two very similar machines could vary depending on just how well they are engineered. I know of no 'additional technology' in expensive HX machines - I think you are paying for quality of engineering and the design of the box.
> 
> BB has very in depth reviews on most of their machines and most of the differences between cheap and expensive machines of similar spec seem to come down to just how well they are made.


Thanks for that. My thoughts were around temp stability, water pressure, water distribution but having never taken the lid of one of these things or having anything to compare to, I wouldnt know what was good or bad


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If all is even in terms of ''temp stability, water pressure, water distribution'', the next level is flow meters but wont you be getting that for 2k.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

For me its either spend a grand or spend 3k, not worth the jump in between


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

For my twopence.......and in my view........it is probably true to say, that machines at a similar price point and a similar design probably produce a similar cup of coffee.......very general, but in reality, does a Fracino Heavenly produce a better cuppa than a Fracino Cherub or Fracino Piccino? Probably not. So, you would expect all vibe pump, E61 group head single boilers to perform in a similar nature, as you would HX machines then moving onto twin boilers. These are all features of the machine that should not affect the overall cuppa.

Next comes PID machines that let you regulate water temp. I had one and never changed it in 4 years, but thats me. Next up the step, and where you will see a difference is in a machine with a rotary pump. I will leave the definitions as to why, to others better able than I!

A Cherub which is the OP's machine, is coupled to a Qamar. The two are probably similar in terms of being a matched pair. Once the OP has learnt to get the best from this set up, he could probably sell the grinder and keep the Cherub and still see better results. then as knowledge improves with technique , the Cherub can go in favour of something else.

So, what I am saying in a roundabout way, is learn the coffee craft. When you upgrade, always go as far as the wallet will let you, because there is always a machine to upgrade to, unless you are a very lucky chap! Price point is important, but whenever you ask anyone their advice, you tend to be told to buy what they have as they believe rightly or wrongly, that they have good kit. They might have but that does not mean it suits your needs.

If you can make the Forum day in September (or wait that long!) then you will get the chance to see a lot of machines across the price points alongside each other.

Were I in the market for a E61 machine (as opposed to a lever), I would be looking at a Commercial One Group, plumbed in with a rotary pump. You can get them. La Spaz do some nice models and I can say that quite comfortably as I do not own one! You then descend into the new v second hand debate and everyone has their views.


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks for the replies. I will be at the meet in September where I will be able to try the different machines.

The reason for specifying pump and HX was to take out the PID temperature variables from the equation. It was more curiosity than my current setup and where I go next (whenever that may be).

My simplistic view of the machine (purists turn away now) was that youre pushing an amount of water at a set pressure through a puck of coffee in a set time - will the logo on the front make that much difference ? I'm not saying that my view was correct, more that this was the reason for the post.

I will be waiting until September at least and I'm arranging some training to get the best out of my kit in the meantime (thanks DFK for the suggestion here).


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You are correct technically, however the type of pump will make a difference to the delivery as will temperature controls. Design is an aspect we pay for, but also the quality of the components inside. I am not into pump driven machines personally but can see the value in getting the right kit, which isn't necessarily the most expensive.


----------



## Callum_T (Dec 23, 2012)

I think it all boils down to the same thing as highlighted by both Gary and David, coffee is a funny substances and even minute differences of temperature of the brew water (disregarding temp profile) and delivery of flow of that water to the puck (again forget pressure profiling) matter and indeed do matter a lot - so the first thing is that every different model will vary in this respect including the actual temp profile of the machine as it pulls a shot. And therefore there will be a variance in cup, just look at commercial machinery the GB5 is leagues away from a commercial HX like a fracino; but still true pressure profiled like strada/slayer/synesso are leagues away from the GB5

Keeping machines out of it - I didn't expect my current machine (Rotary Pumped, True E61, 'Proper' HX) to be as different to my old (Vibe Pumped, E61ish, HX) as it is - even though I must admit that I do now struggle with consistency mainly due to the fact that I don't flush consistently.

Don't forget along with all these variances we all like different aspects of the cup - this was highlighted to me at the grind off when even I , a relative newbie in this coffee home brew world, managed to actually give feedback on the taste of the shots from different grinders.

I meant to mention earlier but take it back to basics and think about brewed coffee you can have all the 'perfect' brew weight ect and still mess up the extraction if you don't say pour evenly or - exaggerating here - added cold water ..

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Of course, if you buy an L1.........no pump issues.......thermosyphon stops temp problems........reducing pressure whilst pulling the shot opens up flavour profiles that pump machines do not seem able to......but there is the cost plus it makes no sense in having a top end machine if your grinder is not up to it........


----------



## gman147 (Jul 7, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> For me its either spend a grand or spend 3k, not worth the jump in between


Couldnt agree more. But then again we have the same machine but it was the very reason of our agreement that spending (investing) 1k, it covers all the way up to 3k.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

And G , you've said yourself, the taste difference from Cherub to Brewtus was a tangible improvement, if not an ''OMG espresso has another level, what have I been missing''


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Of course, if you buy an L1.........no pump issues.......thermosyphon stops temp problems........reducing pressure whilst pulling the shot opens up flavour profiles that pump machines do not seem able to......but there is the cost plus it makes no sense in having a top end machine if your grinder is not up to it........


Not sure if you want to bankrupt me or provide grounds for divorce.

L1 isnt off the list. But if I go that route I may have to sell the Quamar and replace it with an MC2 to fund the L1.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

My first machine was a Gaggia Classic with a Dualit Burr grinder. When I upgraded I probably lost £40. I then bought a Heavenly with a Cunhill Tranquilo grinder. I gave the grinder away. It cost me £70 and was terrible. The heavenly I lost £40 on. I bought another Heavenly which got damaged in transit and Fracino relieved me of an additional £200 for fixing. I paired it with a brand new K30. When I woke up and realised I was being stupid, I only lost £120 as the new price had risen dramatically. I bought a brand new Vario. That was replaced under warranty by which time others had pursuaded me that plastic and ceramic could never outlast steel so I lost about £20 giving the brand new one to a friend. I then sold the Heavenly making £20 on the actual purchase price!!!!!

I then bought an Expobar Leva which I had for 3 1/2 years, paired with a Mignon. I sold the Expobar last Xmas losing about £250 but it developed a fault and where I could have said tough I agreed to pay for an engineer who charged me £150 for not fixing the fault. The chap who bought it found all it was was a small hole in a plastic pipe. I sold the Mignon and only lost £30. I bought an HG One and an L1. The HG One I sold after a week and lost the cost of the courier which was £120 or so. I bought another Mignon, then 2 weeks later bought the Mythos and lost £30. The L1 I got a full refund on which is already documented on here, bought a Strega, bought the L1 back 7 weeks later and lost £330 on the Strega.

So, by my reckoning, my coffee journey has lost me £1380, so had I splashed out on decent kit in the first place and not bothered about all this upgrading a little bit so something better nonsense I would be better off........but, coffee is a journey rather than a destination!

Still, if you buy high end kit, you are less likely to upgrade. I cannot see what espresso machine I could upgrade to now. The L1 is fantastic and domestic orientated. As nice as a Faema legend is I dont want a monster boiler to heat (no criticism at anyone). The Mythos is stunning. I am considering getting a k10 fresh to try and then will keep the one I prefer......though that is not a done deal yet!

So, consult with your Mrs Andrew and ask her if she would rather throw away £1380 in one go or spread it out a bit!


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

working dog said:


> L1 isnt off the list. But if I go that route I may have to sell the Quamar and replace it with an MC2 to fund the L1.


 Ha !!

To go back to your original question 'what makes a difference?' - lever machines, through the beauty of their mechanical design, do seem to make a big difference in terms of taste.

Just when I was about to buy a Rocket, a 1974 Olympia Cremina turned up on this site for around £800 (they are, absurdly, approaching £3k new). In an impulsive moment I went for it.

Strange little machine that it is, it just made fantastic coffee. And I'm not sure anyone really knows quite why it works so well, but it's something to do with the temperature/pressure profiling that results from its very simple but very solid design.

So my point really is, as others have suggested, that there are so many subtleties in the espresso extraction process, machines that appear identical in design may produce slightly different results.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dfk a great description of the pros and cons of equipment choice and very eloquently put . £600 machine that you upgrade after a year £50 a month . Instead £1800 piece of kit that your happy with for 5 years £30 a month . I know that's a very simple and blunt calculation to prove a point but though worth throwing out there . Yes you would get money back on your £600 if you sold it through.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

And I never tire of seeing that video Rolo . There are some things that money and specs don't adequately explain , or show the value or beauty of a machine . That does !


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Once you get into levers a whole world of simplicity and quiet will open up. I know I could never be without a lever anymore. But this is definitely a side topic.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

An the quiet , the simplicity and the romance of a a lever , when will mine arrive


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Grrr damn you all and your levers







wish I had the space for a decent one, but until I can manage to move somewhere bigger there's no chance so my next upgrade will be something like an Oscar or the small Domobar.


----------

