# How do i make a flat white?



## Slee

Can someone explain what i need to do to make a flat white I've heard different ways to make it.

Do i make it with one or two shots? Do i make it with a full shot or cut it as it starts to blonde?


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## Mrboots2u

Slee said:


> Can someone explain what i need to do to make a flat white I've heard different ways to make it.
> 
> Do i make it with one or two shots? Do i make it with a full shot or cut it as it starts to blonde?


This is the way I do It, doesn't mean it right. Two shots, in a 5-6oz cup. Steamed milk, velvety , small amount of foam, nowhere near the amount or thickness of a cappucino, with an attempt at crappy latte art


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## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


> This is the way I do It, doesn't mean it right. Two shots, in a 5-6oz cup. Steamed milk, velvety , small amount of foam, nowhere near the amount or thickness of a cappucino, with an attempt at crappy latte art


Sounds like what I make would qualify it as a flat white. I just think of it as espresso with milk in a small cup! 30g shot in a 150ml cup topped up with steamed milk and whatever thinkness of foam I happen to make that day!


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## Daren

Mrboots2u said:


> This is the way I do It, doesn't mean it right. Two shots, in a 5-6oz cup. Steamed milk, velvety , small amount of foam, nowhere near the amount or thickness of a cappucino, with an attempt at crappy latte art


Same as me.... Even down to the crappy latte art!


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## c_squared

How do I prevent too much foam being developed, is it as simple as not stretching the milk as much?


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## Mrboots2u

Or poor the top part off before you poor it into the cup ....


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## c_squared

Mrboots2u said:


> Or poor the top part off before you poor it into the cup ....


Top tip, I seem to get stacks of foam so I'll give it a go!


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## Mrboots2u

c_squared said:


> Top tip, I seem to get stacks of foam so I'll give it a go!


See it done in cafes etc, or mixed between two jugs etc


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## Walter Sobchak

What size is a costa flat white? 8 oz?


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## Slee

thanks all so you have never heard of doing two shots as a ristretto?

mind you i just read this: http://coffeegeek.com/opinions/aarondelazzer/02-24-2002 and i guess a full shot is as good


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## Kyle548

Walter Sobchak said:


> What size is a costa flat white? 8 oz?


I would be surprised if it was.

I would say at least double that.


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## Mrboots2u

The antipodean s fight over who invented the flat white, and like all things there is debate over its true form. Other people have described it as a stronger , smaller, latte , in a cup ( as opposed to a glass ) .


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## El carajillo

When you have sufficient micro foam raise your steaming vessel to enable the steam wand to circulate the milk without introducing more air.If you make too much foam hold it back with a spoon or knife as you pour the milk.


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## c_squared

El carajillo said:


> When you have sufficient micro foam raise your steaming vessel to enable the steam wand to circulate the milk without introducing more air.If you make too much foam hold it back with a spoon or knife as you pour the milk.


More top tips, this is great. Also you get extra points for the use of the term 'steaming vessel'!!


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## Charliej

Kyle548 said:


> I would be surprised if it was.
> 
> I would say at least double that.


Kyle you do seem to display your ignorance as well as your eagerness and impatience fairly regularly. There is no way a Costa Flat White is 16oz lmfao 8oz would seem to be about right from the cup size they use.


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## Walter Sobchak

Kyle548 said:


> I would be surprised if it was.
> 
> I would say at least double that.


Naah I think they are around 8 oz. I quite like a flat white from costa, definitely nicer than any other chain coffee. Obviously have had a few poor flat whites from there, but on the whole there not too bad.


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## Kyle548

I just went there to pick up an order once and the cups and glasses people were served in seemed to be about 10-12 oz at least.

Obviously 18oz was a dramatisation on my part, hardly call to call me ignorant though.


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## CoffeeJohnny

Kyle548 said:


> I just went there to pick up an order once and the cups and glasses people were served in seemed to be about 10-12 oz at least.
> 
> Obviously 18oz was a dramatisation on my part, hardly call to call me ignorant though.


It's the law to use a smiley when being flippant 'double that at least' ;p see







that works.

Suffice to say costa flat whites are available large. I would suggest though that all drinks are available at sizes the originators would be unhappy with. 'Large' cappuccino ceases to be a cappuccino for me, 'latte' well that's just milk, which I think is why there's a tendency amongst third wave and hipster shops to use the term espresso plus milk showing quantities or ratios of textured milk.

I like double ristretto in a total volume of 7oz including textured milk. That's a flat white for me. Although I'm sure plenty would disagree.

To be honest though if its delicious you could call it a kebabuccino for all I care ;p


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## garydyke1

double shot , 5/6oz cup, steamed milk with a thin layer of microfoam incorportating latte-art.

The thickness of microfoam is the make or break for me & good test of a barista's skills. Too thin and it wont be persistant enough , too thick and the drink falls in danger of being too strong and not balanced.


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## Walter Sobchak

What temp do you guys steam your milk to?


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## jeebsy

Just as the pitcher gets too hot to touch

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 4


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## garydyke1

If I was steaming for a shop it would be a few degrees higher than at home. At home - when the bottom of the pitcher is almost too hot to touch.


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## bronc

garydyke1 said:


> If I was steaming for a shop it would be a few degrees higher than at home. At home - when the bottom of the pitcher is almost too hot to touch.


Can you please explain why?


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## garydyke1

At home we like slightly sweeter warm-milk drinks which we can enjoy immediately. Customers (unless they specifically ask) would be likely to complain not hot enough. Im only talking a few degrees here (for arguements sake 55C versus 60C). Saints in Brum know how we like it and steam cooler for us than the majority of their customers.

One of the eternal battles specialty coffeeshops have with the general public.


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## PhilDotC

I was researching the difference between flat white and latte yesterday, having seen that Costa charge considerable more for a flat white. I'm new to this game by the way. During my research I came across a couple of pages that you might find interesting.

http://www.coffeehunter.org/flat-white-vs-latte/

and,

http://www.coffeehunter.org/nude-espresso/

The second link includes a video showing how they do it the reviewed cafe in London.

Enjoy


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## coffeechap

That's because the majority of people just don't appreciate how much sweeter the milk is lower temps ( or arguably the correct temp)


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## ronsil

garydyke1 said:


> One of the eternal battles specialty coffeeshops have with the general public.


That's for sure.

The average customer always looks to the temperature of the coffee drink to base judgements on.

Trying to educate customers to accept that the drink is better 'off the boil' is expensive & can be the cause of much lower sales volumes.

One way round is to talk with the customer & discuss their preferences. Not easy if there is more than one shop involved.


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## garydyke1

Saints have used the Goldilocks and the 3 bears story for milk in the past!

Always a good idea to fully pre-heat the cup, even if the contents are sub 65C


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## CoffeeJohnny

Milk heated to the correct temperature breaks the lactose molecule freeing up galactose and glucose, glucose is what's recognised as sweet. Beyond 73° the proteins break down, milk then loses body and tastes burned.


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## bronc

I tried steaming to a lower temperature (stopped the steam at 53-4*C and the temperature drifted to 55-58*C while I usually stop at 60*) and I am pretty sure I can taste the milk being sweeter.


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## drgekko

I still can't get decent microfoam - I'm convinced it's because of the thick, black, plastic crappy wand of the Gaggia (bad worksman blame heh?!). As soon as I place the tip in the milk to steam, large bubbles instantly appear... and I don't the mild swirling like in all the great demo videos - mine just rises. When I pour, I don't get any of those lovely white milky patterns emerging, the brown coffee simply rises looking like a cupcake rising in the oven... I keep pouring the milk until I'm left with thick, soap-sud-like froth at the end which just plops onto the top. Whilst it tastes fine (and all of my friends say their drinks are better than any chain coffee they've had before!!), it doesn't look right and frustrates me.


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## Daren

I'd go with your thoughts about the wand. Lots of Gaggia owners upgrade the wand for a Rancio for good reason.


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## coffeechap

drgekko said:


> I still can't get decent microfoam - I'm convinced it's because of the thick, black, plastic crappy wand of the Gaggia (bad worksman blame heh?!). As soon as I place the tip in the milk to steam, large bubbles instantly appear... and I don't the mild swirling like in all the great demo videos - mine just rises. When I pour, I don't get any of those lovely white milky patterns emerging, the brown coffee simply rises looking like a cupcake rising in the oven... I keep pouring the milk until I'm left with thick, soap-sud-like froth at the end which just plops onto the top. Whilst it tastes fine (and all of my friends say their drinks are better than any chain coffee they've had before!!), it doesn't look right and frustrates me.


Just upgrade the wand there is one for sale on here at the mo, it makes the world of a difference, also have you tried using the steam wand without the the outer sheath, it is much better


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## Barry Cook

Ok, so here's the way we do it in our shop:

6oz cup - it should be a shortish drink, so no offer of a larger cup

Double Ristretto - for those that don't know, basically load a double espresso but cut the machine at half-way through (around 1floz measure), and no, a single espresso will not do. The dbl ristretto gives you the sweet intenseness needed to cut through the milk when you add it.

Whole milk steamed with only the slightest bit of stretching.

NB the ristretto will make latte art a whole lot easier.


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## bronc

drgekko said:


> I still can't get decent microfoam - I'm convinced it's because of the thick, black, plastic crappy wand of the Gaggia (bad worksman blame heh?!). As soon as I place the tip in the milk to steam, large bubbles instantly appear... and I don't the mild swirling like in all the great demo videos - mine just rises. When I pour, I don't get any of those lovely white milky patterns emerging, the brown coffee simply rises looking like a cupcake rising in the oven... I keep pouring the milk until I'm left with thick, soap-sud-like froth at the end which just plops onto the top. Whilst it tastes fine (and all of my friends say their drinks are better than any chain coffee they've had before!!), it doesn't look right and frustrates me.


Remove the Pannarello attachment and steam using the short black end of the steam wand. I was able to get microfoam every time this way when I was using my Gaggia.


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## coffeechap

Barry Cook said:


> Ok, so here's the way we do it in our shop:
> 
> 6oz cup - it should be a shortish drink, so no offer of a larger cup
> 
> Double Ristretto - for those that don't know, basically load a double espresso but cut the machine at half-way through (around 1floz measure), and no, a single espresso will not do. The dbl ristretto gives you the sweet intenseness needed to cut through the milk when you add it.
> 
> Whole milk steamed with only the slightest bit of stretching.
> 
> NB the ristretto will make latte art a whole lot easier.


Where in swindon on are you???


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## Barry Cook

Was in Swindon but recently closed down, now just opened a new place in Cirencester, Cotswold Artisan Coffee.

Come find us if you want to see how it's done or for any other tips for that matter.


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## coffeechap

Perhaps I could show you a thing or two, will come in and check you guys out. What coffe are you serving ?


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## garydyke1

This is how I make a flat white

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/381411279849549825


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## Barry Cook

coffeechap said:


> What coffe are you serving ?


Rave Coffee's Signature Blend as house, but guest espressos and filters from Rave, Union, Hasbean, The Coffee Factory, and any others we come across that take our fancy.


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## coffeechap

Well I will definitely come in and give you some feedback on here.


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## Yes Row

Barry Cook said:


> Ok, so here's the way we do it in our shop:
> 
> 6oz cup - it should be a shortish drink, so no offer of a larger cup
> 
> Double Ristretto - for those that don't know, basically load a double espresso but cut the machine at half-way through (around 1floz measure), and no, a single espresso will not do. The dbl ristretto gives you the sweet intenseness needed to cut through the milk when you add it.
> 
> Whole milk steamed with only the slightest bit of stretching.
> 
> NB the ristretto will make latte art a whole lot easier.


Thanks for this info. I tried making my flat white this way, using a double Ristretto and it was a marked improvement on my usual, made with a double espresso. Thanks!


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## Neill

I've been trying it with a ristretto. Really tasty. Much more caramel flavour coming from my extract original blend which tastes great in the milk.


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## snegger

Barry Cook said:


> Ok, so here's the way we do it in our shop:
> 
> 6oz cup - it should be a shortish drink, so no offer of a larger cup
> 
> Double Ristretto - for those that don't know, basically load a double espresso but cut the machine at half-way through (around 1floz measure), and no, a single espresso will not do. The dbl ristretto gives you the sweet intenseness needed to cut through the milk when you add it.
> 
> Whole milk steamed with only the slightest bit of stretching.
> 
> NB the ristretto will make latte art a whole lot easier.


Any idea what I was doing wrong, I was using a Gaggia classic with the upgraded want, it wasn't a bad effort but the taste was like drinking soar milk, it was really bad I could not drink it, tried a few times and kept getting the same results so just gave up.


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## coffeechap

But surely that is down to the shot, or milk being too hot?


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## snegger

coffeechap said:


> But surely that is down to the shot, or milk being too hot?


I thought that too but I was using a thermometer and it didn't feel too hot, I've had over hot FWs from Costa and they never tasted like this, it was a while ago but I still feel stick thinking of the taste.


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## Charliej

snegger said:


> I thought that too but I was using a thermometer and it didn't feel too hot, I've had over hot FWs from Costa and they never tasted like this, it was a while ago but I still feel stick thinking of the taste.


What beans were you using? and if you had underextracted the shot it would taste sour


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## snegger

Charliej said:


> What beans were you using? and if you had underextracted the shot it would taste sour


It wasn't the beans, it was a very sweet/sour creamy taste, maybe just bad milk but the milk was bought fresh.

I've boiled milk before in a pan and it was still usable, tbh it wouldn't surprise me if it was down to the milk at M&S as my locel M&S simply food always seem to sell milk on the turn, but I know the milk tasted ok before heating, I remeber now there was also a manure small/taste to it LOL this is turning my stomach I don't know about yours.


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## Charliej

snegger said:


> It wasn't the beans, it was a very sweet/sour creamy taste, maybe just bad milk but the milk was bought fresh.
> 
> I've boiled milk before in a pan and it was still usable, tbh it wouldn't surprise me if it was down to the milk at M&S as my locel M&S simply food always seem to sell milk on the turn, but I know the milk tasted ok before heating, I remeber now there was also a manure small/taste to it LOL this is turning my stomach I don't know about yours.


How much espresso were you trying extract and from what weight of beans and in what period of time? and the beans do matter as they may be past their best. Sour flavours aren't always to do with the milk, try using milk from somewhere else and let us know how that goes.


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## snegger

Charliej said:


> How much espresso were you trying extract and from what weight of beans and in what period of time? and the beans do matter as they may be past their best. Sour flavours aren't always to do with the milk, try using milk from somewhere else and let us know how that goes.


I didn't say the beans didn't matter but that I know it wasn't the beans.

I use organic milk, maybe that had something to do with the manure smell LOL anyway thanks for the advice I'll try again as I love FWs.


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## jimbow

If I recall correctly, I believe Costa use a triple shot cut short (not technically the same as a ristretto) in their version of the flat white. This allows them to maintain a shorter coffee : milk ratio in a larger volume serving and recreate the sweet flavour of the drink more easily and consistently.

I make a flat white at home with a double shot of espresso in a 160ml cup with steamed milk with a little froth. I tend to like my espresso fairly short so usually brew what would probably technically be classed by many as a ristretto - 17g of grounds producing 28g of espresso in around 30 seconds.

I find that if the espresso is under extracted or is too acidic then it can taste sour in milk. Also, I believe adding sugar can sometimes make coffee taste sour (there was an article posted on this a while back by Colonna and Smalls).


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## Barry Cook

Snegger, try again with the milk 'cos it sounds like that would have been the problem. Unless the beans were rancid, I can't see how they would cause the problems you had. Also, try to do it without thermometer (i.e. hand on bottom of jug, steam 'til warm to touch NOT hot!) as wax thermometers tend to be slow. By all means check temp (65 deg is ideal) but give the thermometer 10-15 secs to settle.

And Costa may well use a triple shot (I wouldn't know), but it extracts like dishwater as they want speed not quality (I've witnessed double espressos extracting in less than 15 seconds several times). I'm trying not to knock them, as that's their business model, but their approach to extraction and preparation is very different to any half-decent independent. For information, we use a 19g double shot as our base which, due to the updose, takes about 35 secs as dbl espresso, and 24 as dbl ristretto. Ergo, quality and quantity do not mix!


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