# Grinding for a ristretto



## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

I want to try making a ristretto shot. For my normal espresso shots I am currently doing 18g in and getting about 38g out in about 25-30 secs. I know I need to grind finer for the ristretto but not sure how much finer. This might be an impossible question to answer, but if I am grinding on number 15 (using a smart grinder pro) how fine should I start grinding for the ristretto?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

There's not really a single, common definition of a ristretto, other than it's brewed with a short ratio.

If you're looking to get a similar extraction (flavour balance), but more mouth feel & intensity than your current shots, you'll likely need to grind finer. Whether the Sage will handle this well...I don't know. You might just struggle with sourness.

Another route would be to grind coarser & pull a very fast (10-15s) 1:1.0 to 1:1.2 shot. You could start at your current grind. If it's sour/sharp/tart go coarser, if it runs so fast you can't stop it reliably, up-dose a little. There is a region of extraction before sourness becomes dominant, that produces pleasant shots with little sourness & bitterness.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@MWJB - Have you tried splitting shots to get the first bit as a smaller shot or approximation of a ristretto?

Sure you have at some point since, since you seem to have tried most things coffee related. 😂 I couldn't remember if that approach had any benefits.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Northern_Monkey said:


> @MWJB - Have you tried splitting shots to get the first bit as a smaller shot or approximation of a ristretto?
> 
> Sure you have at some point since, since you seem to have tried most things coffee related. 😂 I couldn't remember if that approach had any benefits.


 I have tried splitting shots but couldn't really work out any value to it. The closest I do is dialling in a long shot (1:5), then up-dosing & going 1:1 at the same grind for a very low extraction (12-14%) ristretto. Generally, if you are aiming for typical extraction (17-21%EY?) at 1:2, you're going to be so fine that even if you pull 1:1, it's going to still extract in the sour region (of course, if your 1:2 shots are sour, there's nothing to lose by going shorter, maybe coarser & seeing if you can extract significantly less).

Really though, I decide on a target & work to that, change it if it's becoming a chore.

Any coffee you taste is the whole extraction, up to that point, so a split shot may have 1 OK element, 2 not so nice ones...but pour them all together in a cup and it's great, better than any of the 3 individually.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Why not keep the grind size the same and cut the shot at 1:1.5 or less. See how it tastes and adjust the grind finer or lower the ratio to experiment, one variable at a time. I think I did this by mistake once and the shot was very gloopy (in a good way) and tasty!


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## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

HVL87 said:


> Why not keep the grind size the same and cut the shot at 1:1.5 or less


 That's what I've been doing with my current batch of BlackCat beans - Myanmar - A Lel Chaung - Natural. The Niche is set up for 15.8g in and 34 out. Used the same grind setting and finally arrived by trial and error stopping the shot after 16.5g out in about 17 seconds. Been tweaking shot length to see where it's nicest.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Thanks for the replies. I will give it a go though I am not sure what I am aiming for - was hoping there was a recipe I could follow but I can see it's trial and error. I have a poster of all the different types of coffee and I am working my way through them and ticking them off, hoping to try them all. There is also lungo and caffe crema on the list. I have probably made these by accident at some point without realising 😂


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

An interesting question.

I have got graduated coffee glasses made in Italy and the volume for double ristretto is 44 mls.

I do not know where the truth is. I usually stop at around 38-40 mls for 18 g shots in 45 seconds and I have been telling myself that this should be ristretto.

Is that right?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

John Yossarian said:


> I do not know where the truth is. I usually stop at around 38-40 mls for 18 g shots in 45 seconds and I have been telling myself that this should be ristretto.
> 
> Is that right?


 There's no one, truth, or universal definition. A lot of folk pull "normales" at the same ratio that you do, the only difference is what you are calling them.

A ratio is more informative than these loose descriptions, nowadays in specialty a ristretto might be more like a 1:1.5 ratio, or shorter.

If you're enjoying your coffee, I wouldn't change anything...call it what you like


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Well I had a go as an experiment. I ground a lot finer and did 17.5g in and got 18g out but was a bit of a struggle for the machine 😂 as took about a minute and it turned off half way through. Was lovely smooth coffee though. No bitterness or sourness - kind of how I would like my espressos to taste but they don't 😂.

I think I will give it another try tomorrow and grind less fine and tamp a bit less hard and then I will call it a ristretto and tick it off and move on.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Emily said:


> Well I had a go as an experiment. I ground a lot finer and did 17.5g in and got 18g out but was a bit of a struggle for the machine 😂 as took about a minute and it turned off half way through. Was lovely smooth coffee though. No bitterness or sourness - kind of how I would like my espressos to taste but they don't 😂.
> 
> I think I will give it another try tomorrow and grind less fine and tamp a bit less hard and then I will call it a ristretto and tick it off and move on.


 You raise an interesting question, if it tastes how you would like your espresso to taste, with no bitterness, nor sourness, why move on? Sounds like you nailed it (other than taking a little longer than necessary).


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

It was too small for me though. I would like that taste but about 3 times the amount. I'm not sure my machine could cope with it as well. It switches off halfway through. I'm not sure if that's because it will overheat or because it cuts out after a certain amount of time


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Emily said:


> It was too small for me though. I would like that taste but about 3 times the amount. I'm not sure my machine could cope with it as well. It switches off halfway through. I'm not sure if that's because it will overheat or because it cuts out after a certain amount of time


 You don't need to grind so fine that the machine cuts out. I have hit these extractions in 10-15s.

You could add 35g of hot water to the shot? Or grind much coarser & pull them longer, maintaining the flavour balance.


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## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

Emily said:


> I would like that taste


 Following the taste is definitely key,
another source for data on coffee ratios;


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Emily said:


> I want to try making a ristretto shot. For my normal espresso shots I am currently doing 18g in and getting about 38g out in about 25-30 secs. I know I need to grind finer for the ristretto but not sure how much finer. This might be an impossible question to answer, but if I am grinding on number 15 (using a smart grinder pro) how fine should I start grinding for the ristretto?


 A ristretto is a double dose producing a single shot.

A single shot is 25ml +/- 2.5ml. An ordinary single dose is 7g +/- 0.5g.

A ristretto would then be a 14g dose +/- 1g to produce a 25ml shot +/- 2.5ml.

The shot should take 25 seconds +/- 5 seconds.

Hitting these targets isn't going to necessarily get you something drinkable but you can at least tick it off the list.

Translating these measures into weights.....

How much would a 25ml shot weigh? About 20g maybe?

So a 14g dose to 20g. About a 1:1.4 or 1:5 ratio?

In old terms a 1:2 is probably somewhere between a ristretto and a normale so you're not far off from your usual settings. If you dial in a 1:2 for 30 seconds you can probably produce something you'd call a ristretto in 20-25 seconds but you'd be better off grinding a bit finer.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Today I did 17g in which gave me 24g out in 30 seconds - about 1:1.5 ratio. I only needed to grind 2 numbers finer than normal and just tamp a bit harder. Hopefully that counts as a ristretto 😂 It was nice but there isn't a big difference in taste between espresso and ristretto - to me anyway. I have rubbish tastebuds lol.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Emily said:


> Today I did 17g in which gave me 24g out in 30 seconds - about 1:1.5 ratio. I only needed to grind 2 numbers finer than normal and just tamp a bit harder. Hopefully that counts as a ristretto 😂 It was nice but there isn't a big difference in taste between espresso and ristretto - to me anyway. I have rubbish tastebuds lol.


 It should feel thicker (more viscous), if nothing else 😀. More stuff extracted in less water allegedly should do that but on paper many things look differently. As long as you do enjoy it this is what matters.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Emily said:


> Today I did 17g in which gave me 24g out in 30 seconds - about 1:1.5 ratio. I only needed to grind 2 numbers finer than normal and just tamp a bit harder. Hopefully that counts as a ristretto 😂 It was nice but there isn't a big difference in taste between espresso and ristretto - to me anyway. I have rubbish tastebuds lol.


 You would only have a big difference in flavour balance if you hit a significantly different extraction (which neither defines, nor excludes a ristretto), going shorter & grinding finer could have landed you pretty much where you were before, just a little more concentrated.

Even more confusingly, there are a couple of points where espresso can taste good & not overwhelmingly sour. As noted, so long as you know how to make something you like & have some flexibility in keeping there, all is good.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Thank you for the replies ☺ I am happy with my coffee making at the moment, I am improving! Lungo next 😰


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Emily said:


> Thank you for the replies ☺ I am happy with my coffee making at the moment, I am improving! Lungo next 😰


 If I forget and get a long shot, or don't move the cup....I realise I always intended it to be a Lungo, if I really forget, it becometh a cafe crema. Fortunately there are enough drinks that, within reason, whatever we do, theres a name for it. 😁


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> If I forget and get a long shot, or don't move the cup....I realise I always intended it to be a Lungo, if I really forget, it becometh a cafe crema. Fortunately there are enough drinks that, within reason, whatever we do, theres a name for it. 😁


 😂

My reason is that I just want a bigger coffee!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Emily Double espresso with an Americano Chaser.......


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I favour what was probably the original meaning of ristretto and for that matter lungo .

Some cafe has tuned an espresso shot. Say it was a commercial double which using a suitable bean might be 14 in 60 out. For a risteretto they might reduce the output to 40g. For a lungo increase to 80g. Shot time will change. There is no way a cafe would reset the grinder and leave the time fixed. That's just changing the ratio directly. A modern machine would use volume directly.

I use a ristretto for my wife. 30sec for me. 20sec for her. On this particular bean it noticeably sweetens. Also generally weakens the taste.

This particular normal shot is based on 13.5g in and ~35g out, 30sec


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

ajohn said:


> On this particular bean it noticeably sweetens


 I keep hearing sweetness in coffee talked about. I can't taste any sweetness ever in mine. Not even a hint.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Emily said:


> I keep hearing sweetness in coffee talked about. I can't taste any sweetness ever in mine. Not even a hint.


 few points

what coffee do you use though , roast and origin play a huge part in this

Sweetness is always for me a balance with acidity, never a replacement , not a saccrine sugar like note .

most espresso made at home on a 1:2 ratio is nominally under extracted , people need to push through the ratios and the trade of is always sweetness v strength preference .


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Ah ok. I thought I should be looking for a sugary sweetness. Sorting out all the different tastes is tricky. 😂 I am still struggling with the difference between sour and bitter sometimes. I have to really concentrate 🤣


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Emily said:


> Ah ok. I thought I should be looking for a sugary sweetness. Sorting out all the different tastes is tricky. 😂 I am still struggling with the difference between sour and bitter sometimes. I have to really concentrate 🤣


 Well it can be a fruit sweetness, or even a treacle/caramel/toffee sweetness. There isn't much sugar in roasted coffee so likely comes from the acids.

Maybe think more about how much you like a shot overall, or what in particular you dislike about the others? Then when you have more of the ones you really like, you might start picking up specific notes (obviously buying coffees with notes that appeal to you and/or mention sweetness specifically will help).

I tend to find that my longer shots have more of it (1:4 to 1:6, depending on the coffee), or 1:1 shots pulled fast...but these are obviously very concentrated & harder to break down flavour-wise.

How would you describe the coffee you are drinking now, even if it's just a basic liking score, without specifics?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Caffeine is the definite bitter content of coffee. When people talk about sweet light roasts I think it means a more muted acidic taste. By there nature they wont be chocolaty or sweet. That's more likely to occur as the roast levels increase.

The bean I was referring to was a dark roast monsooned. Not as dark as some sell but near dripping oil after ~5 days resting. In dark roast it can achieve a sweet taste but it isn't a bean that some one would drink as an espresso - IMHO. Way too strong. It not a grinder friendly bean either. Something as high as 1 to 4 would make it pretty astringent. In this case a better word than acidic. I only drink americano as feel it leaves more options.

Really with any bean it's a case of going through the options and not sticking to rigid numbers. The usual one is 1 to 2 and 30sec and double dammed if anything else is used. A few ratios usually give an indication of which way a bean goes. Fixed time but the problem with that is more or less might give different results. Significantly more or less in other words.

Above all the main aim is a drink the drinker likes.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Caffeine is the definite bitter content of coffee. When people talk about sweet light roasts I think it means a more muted acidic taste. By there nature they wont be chocolaty or sweet. That's more likely to occur as the roast levels increase.


 I don't know about that, it would mean that decaf was always less bitter & that's not my experience. Arabica seems to have a fairly narrow caffeine content from the papers I have read (1.1-1.3%), but varies greatly in perceived sweetness.

I've had sweet light roasts (like sweet grape juice, fruit punch, or candied peel) & sweet dark roasts (caramel, treacle, golden syrup). Brazils & Bolivians can be chocolatey at any roast level,. Only milk chocolate is sweet. I don't see a linear correlation to roast level & sweetness, beyond very dark roasts being least likely to be sweet. I think buying a sweet coffee from a roaster you trust & are familiar with would be most reliable.

I don't take sugar, or add sugar to any foods (but I still enjoy sweet treats on occasions), so it's possible my datum for "sweet" is different to someone who has 2 teaspoons in every cup (as my girlfriend does, but doesn't want it even in typical coffees I make her).

That said, I'm up for any specific suggestion for a sweet coffee.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

ajohn said:


> Caffeine is the definite bitter content of coffee. When people talk about sweet light roasts I think it means a more muted acidic taste. By there nature they wont be chocolaty or sweet. That's more likely to occur as the roast levels increase.
> 
> The bean I was referring to was a dark roast monsooned. Not as dark as some sell but near dripping oil after ~5 days resting. In dark roast it can achieve a sweet taste but it isn't a bean that some one would drink as an espresso - IMHO. Way too strong. It not a grinder friendly bean either. Something as high as 1 to 4 would make it pretty astringent. In this case a better word than acidic. I only drink americano as feel it leaves more options.
> 
> ...


 Caffeine is responsible for about 10% of bitterness. Trigonelline is also responsible and chlorogenic acids contribute to bitterness and make up about 7-10% mass of green coffee compared to about 1% for Caffeine. Chlorogenic acids also contribute to bitter sweet flavours. Lipids may help with mouth feel and alter perception of sweetness and acidity. Then there's actual sucrose still present in the bean in small amounts. Light roasts are potentially sweeter than darker roasts which have been through more caramelisation which is bittering. Sweetness isn't muted acidity. Fruit notes may be identified if certain acids e.g. citric and malic, are in similar proportions to an actual fruit together with some sweetness which can come from protein and carbohydrate. The water used itself may also taste a little sweet.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Emily said:


> I keep hearing sweetness in coffee talked about. I can't taste any sweetness ever in mine. Not even a hint.


 It's a bit subtle and probably rather than sweetness, think of it as less bitterness. I have all espressos as they come no sugar, no nothing. If I have an Americano, I use a sweetener tablet, because that's the way I like it. If I'm using let's say an El Salvador, I might use a whole tablet....but if I'm having a Brazilian, then I might only need 1/2 or 3/4 of a tablet. Neither Coffee is actually "sweet" as such, but one is definitely less bitter. I'm not saying there isn't a small amount of underlying sweetness, but that's usually overtaken by bitter notes.

The .gif below is to help those unlucky souls get the image of me having a Brazilian out of their minds.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't use sugar either and can no longer comfortably eat the majority of sweet treats. I can easily detect the miniscule amounts that are sometime put in bread.  My mother never ever used sugar in her entire life. When young I found she could detect 2 grains in a cup of tea.  I'm not that bad.

Sorry @Rob1 no one will ever convince me that caramelisation leads to bitterness and your comments about light roasts do not fit into my experience of them at all. Beans vary too much for hard rules anyway. That can even be down to exactly where they came from and even who roasted them - that aspect really is a pain in the neck.

What I find with bitterness is that muted and maybe as taste note when it's drunk is preferable. Trouble is I do like strong coffee though. Milk based drinks aren't for me. People's tastes do vary.

Monsooned is often described as having a sweet spicy kick maybe even earthy overtones. Well potato is earthy and gives a much better idea of what it means in coffee terms. The kick to me isn't bitter hence using the word astringent. I like the kick, my wife wouldn't. Playing around I have changed how I brew it. Net effect is a sweet aftertaste, earthyness is noticeable as is the kick. Not so controllable as I brewed it before but may get more so if I reduce the dose.  I've been drinking the stuff for 2+ years. I've also tried it in medium roast but the kick gets illusive and sweetness ???? I put that down to the supply as sometimes the kick is there and more often it isn't.

Dave has made a better description in the area of acidity than I made. His mouth and taste buds are probably a lot better than mine. On the other hand I think eventually most people who take the trouble to brew improve in that area over time. I am not keen on novice blind tasting where the novices notice things after they have been told about them but suppose it helps explain what basic coffee tasting notes mean. These days though roasters may mention a mix of specific fruit notes overcomplicating things. Maybe it looks good and sells more beans.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

I think I now get what you are saying after having a go at making a lungo this morning. I ground coarser and did 17g in and 60g out in 30 secs and it was quite hard and bitter and not especially nice unlike the ristretto (or my attempts at one). So the sweetness in the ristretto could be the lack of bitterness in the lungo? (Maybe) I'm definitely a ristretto person! 😊 It's quite good fun messing around with timing and weight and grind etc.



ajohn said:


> don't use sugar either and can no longer comfortably eat the majority of sweet treats. I can easily detect the miniscule amounts that are sometime put in bread.  My mother never ever used sugar in her entire life. When young I found she could detect 2 grains in a cup of tea.  I'm not that bad.


 Me too! I avoid all sugar and can taste it in supermarket bread - almost tastes like cake to me 😂 I can't taste it in cream crackers though. There is an experiment where you time how long it takes for you to taste sweetness in a cream cracker and that tells you how good you are at metabolising carbohydrates. I can't taste it at all so I'm rubbish at metabolising carbs.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Emily said:


> I think I now get what you are saying after having a go at making a lungo this morning. I ground coarser and did 17g in and 60g out in 30 secs and it was quite hard and bitter and not especially nice unlike the ristretto (or my attempts at one). So the sweetness in the ristretto could be the lack of bitterness in the lungo? (Maybe) I'm definitely a ristretto person! 😊 It's quite good fun messing around with timing and weight and grind etc.
> 
> Me too! I avoid all sugar and can taste it in supermarket bread - almost tastes like cake to me 😂 I can't taste it in cream crackers though. There is an experiment where you time how long it takes for you to taste sweetness in a cream cracker and that tells you how good you are at metabolising carbohydrates. I can't taste it at all so I'm rubbish at metabolising carbs.


 Make a ristretto, dilate it with a little water, taste, will be weaker but the extraction yield , will be the same.

Think of it as adding water to whisky to open up the flavours and decrease the strength


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

ajohn said:


> Sorry @Rob1 no one will ever convince me that caramelisation leads to bitterness and your comments about light roasts do not fit into my experience of them at all. Beans vary too much for hard rules anyway. That can even be down to exactly where they came from and even who roasted them - that aspect really is a pain in the neck.


 Ok fine. Caramelisation is a reduction of sugar and a reduction of sweetness, if the sugars burn they become bitter. Increasing caramelisation is decreasing sweetness. I said light roasts are potentially sweeter, if you don't extract them properly they won't be which could be because they aren't roasted properly or it could be the method. You can of course go down the route of claiming beans vary too much to discuss, or you could roast coffee from all over the world to a variety of different levels with varying profiles and conclude roast colour is not really something that can be used to indicate sweetness or acidity, fruit or chocolate notes, or much else, but generally the longer a roast is the less acidity and sweetness it will have...that doesn't mean it'll be dark though. Of course that's only true up to a point, it does need to develop.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I see that as trying a ratio not a lungo. You have set the grinder to achieve it. You should try ratios. A good set and they only need to be approximate is 2 2.5 and 3 and see what that does to your perspective of taste. Stick to ~30sec on all as small variations in time don't make much difference to taste. These are achieved via grinder settings, keeping the dose the same. These should tell you where you need to aim. They may suggest higher or lower could be better so try them.

Then if you want to lungo or risteretto change time significantly. Say 20 or 40sec at the same grinder setting.

At some point you might want to try the same initial ratios with a time of 40 sec or maybe even 20. These could then be lungerettoed in the same way.

Sometimes rather small reductions in grinder setting "sweeten".

As you can see there is a lot of merit in trying to find a bean that you basically like as far more time to explore it's possibilities.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Emily said:


> I think I now get what you are saying after having a go at making a lungo this morning. I ground coarser and did 17g in and 60g out in 30 secs and it was quite hard and bitter and not especially nice unlike the ristretto (or my attempts at one). So the sweetness in the ristretto could be the lack of bitterness in the lungo? (Maybe) I'm definitely a ristretto person! 😊 It's quite good fun messing around with timing and weight and grind etc.


 The Lungo will taste bitter because after a certain point, you are just extracting bitter flavours from the puck. The Café Crema for me is one of the more horrible drinks (very popular abroad in the mid 70s), as it's even worse than a Lungo IMO

You can try this by using a second cup or shotglass, put the first 30g into 1 and catch the second 30g in the other....then try them.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Emily said:


> I think I now get what you are saying after having a go at making a lungo this morning. I ground coarser and did 17g in and 60g out in 30 secs and it was quite hard and bitter and not especially nice unlike the ristretto (or my attempts at one). So the sweetness in the ristretto could be the lack of bitterness in the lungo? (Maybe) I'm definitely a ristretto person! 😊 It's quite good fun messing around with timing and weight and grind etc.


 You didn't grind coarse enough for the 17:60shot. There shouldn't be a big difference in bitterness at whatever ratio you pull (up to 1:6, only because that is as far as I normally need to go), when you adjust the grind size to normalise extraction/siltiness in the cup (even if you don't extract significantly more, at too fine a grind you can get more solids flushed through the basket). However, you have now pulled 17:60, it's too bitter, so try 17:51g at the same setting, any better?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> The Lungo will taste bitter because after a certain point, you are just extracting bitter flavours from the puck.


 If you grind coarse enough, you can go 1:4 to 1:6 and still not hit bitterness.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> You can try this by using a second cup or shotglass, put the first 30g into 1 and catch the second 30g in the other....then try them.


 I wondered about mentioning Costamotorway shots. Only black stuff comes out and for a rather short time. Another view that sometimes crops up - terminate on colour. It may make sense if the paler flow corresponds with bitterness which it may well do. Or it could be the other way round.  I find watching things like this interesting when drinking out.

Dave's first shot glass would be a risteretto from the ratio that has been used.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I wondered about mentioning Costamotorway shots. Only black stuff comes out and for a rather short time. Another view that sometimes crops up - terminate on colour. It may make sense if the paler flow corresponds with bitterness which it may well do. Or it could be the other way round.  I find watching things like this interesting when drinking out.
> 
> Dave's first shot glass would be a risteretto from the ratio that has been used.


 Colour & extraction are very, very loosely related, just the shorter the ratio, the darker the output. The darker the roast the darker the output whatever the extraction. The coarser you grind, the faster shots go pale, but will only be bitter if you over-extract...which is less likely with a coarse grind. You can pull a long, pale shot that is under-extracted easily.


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

ajohn said:


> see that as trying a ratio not a lungo. You have set the grinder to achieve it. You should try ratios. A good set and they only need to be approximate is 2 2.5 and 3 and see what that does to your perspective of taste. Stick to ~30sec on all as small variations in time don't make much difference to taste. These are achieved via grinder settings, keeping the dose the same. These should tell you where you need to aim. They may suggest higher or lower could be better so try them.
> 
> Then if you want to lungo or risteretto change time significantly. Say 20 or 40sec at the same grinder setting.
> 
> At some point you might want to try the same initial ratios with a time of 40 sec or maybe even 20. These could then be lungerettoed in the same way.


 Ah I think it is making sense. Thank you, I will try this.



DavecUK said:


> You can try this by using a second cup or shotglass, put the first 30g into 1 and catch the second 30g in the other....then try them.


 I will also try this.



MWJB said:


> However, you have now pulled 17:60, it's too bitter, so try 17:51g at the same setting, any better?


 And this!

Thank you for all your comments, I do appreciate the advice. I sometimes have to read them quite a few times to digest all the information as I find it tricky to understand. Also I only make one coffee a day so progress is a bit slow for me ☺


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

@Rob1

This page may explain my view of caramelisation. In simple terms it means toffee, more of it and higher temperatures means burnt. Burnt means find a roaster the knows what they are doing.

https://library.sweetmarias.com/a-rough-pictorial-guide-to-the-roast-process/

Of use to home roasters too but many will say only applies to a full blown drum roaster. I'd say it can help give people a clue.

Monsooned is often supplied burnt or nearly so or variations from the same roaster using the same beans.

Sweetmarias archives can be an interesting place to look around in. There are a couple on the above but that one takes less reading.


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Just because, I got distracted (cooling breakfast)

I did 16g in 80g out the other day, was smooth and not bad, just tasted of "coffee" ha

Lots of things to try, but I think I need a better grinder.

Emily, keep that head up and keep going!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

ajohn said:


> @Rob1
> 
> This page may explain my view of caramelisation. In simple terms it means toffee, more of it and higher temperatures means burnt. Burnt means find a roaster the knows what they are doing.
> 
> ...


 I searched the page for 'toffee' and it didn't bring up any results. I can't see where your view is coming from from the information Sweet Maria's provide.

From the page you linked to. First on first crack:



> Once caramelizationA reaction involving sugars that occurs during coffee roasting. A caramelized sugar is less sweet, but has greater complexity of flavor and aroma. Caramelization is slower than Maillard reactions, and requires higher temperatures. These reactions More begins (340-400 degrees) a roast that looses heat will taste "baked", perhaps due to the disruption on long-chain polymerization. The melting point of sucroseSucrose is important to the taste of sweetness in light roast coffees, as it is completely converted or destroyed in darker roasts.: Sucrose is largely destroyed by the roasting process through various reactions and thermal More is 370 f and corresponds to this window of temperatures when caramelization begins.


 Next stage:



> The coffee has completed the First Crack, and has been allowed to brown up a little, but Second Crack has not sounded yet. Not the slightly rough texture the coffee surface, and how it is crazed with darker lines. At this point the coffee has expanded due to the outgassing of First Crack, marking the point where water and carbon dioxide go their separate ways.
> 
> In terms of cup qualities, at this stage and the light Full City below you will have the best chance to sense the* Origin Character* of the coffee, although this style of roast might not appeal to your palate. *In fact, at this degree of caramelization you have (perhaps) caramelized 50% of the sugars. Non-caramelized sugars cup sweeter than the bittersweet-bitter caramelized ones*...


 From Sweetmaria's page on 'caramelization':



> A reaction involving sugars that occurs during coffee roasting. A caramelized sugar is less sweet, but has greater complexity of flavor and aroma. Caramelization is slower than Maillard reactions, and requires higher temperatures. These reactions involve only sugars. They really begin up around 150C to 180C, with water being lost from the sugar molecule beginning the chain of events. In all cases the sugar is converted to a furfuryl. These are a type of furans that have a caramelly, slightly burnt and also slightly meaty notes. The same compound is produced via a different route in the Maillard reactions. However it is with prolonged high temperature that many other types of aromas are generated. Caramelisation is more predictable than Maillard reaction due to less variation in the starting compounds. Without the sulphur or nitrogen found in the amino acids caramelization is unable to produce flavors as meaty as Maillard reactions. It is interesting to note how the sugar solutions taste changes in caramelization. A sugar solution initially will be sweet with no aroma. Through caramelization it becomes both sour and a little bitter, as a rich aroma develops. Generally the longer sugar is caramelized the less sweet it tastes, so the key is to balance the benefits of uncaramelized sugar sweetness while avoiding light roast astringency and sourness.


 It also mentions there's no sugar left in roasted coffee so sweetness is more about perception, but you can get sweetness from other things. They also have a page on Sucrose:



> Sucrose is important to the taste of sweetness in light roast coffees, as it is completely converted or destroyed in darker roasts.: Sucrose is largely destroyed by the roasting process through various reactions and thermal caramelization. It is destroyed at this rate: 2.9% remains in a light roast; 0.9% in a medium roast, 0% in a dark roast. Sucrose is sweeter before caramelization, but perhaps more aromatic after caramelization. Still, if there is no sweet taste, the perception of caramelized sucrose will not be sweet. "Sucrose is the principle sugar in coffee. The melting point of pure crystalline sucrose is in the 320-392 degrees F with 370 degrees F most commonly accepted. Degradation of dry sucrose can occur as low as 194 degrees F. and begins with the cleavage of the glycosidic bond followed by condensation and the formation of water. Between 338 and 392 degrees F, caramelization begins. It is at this point that water and carbon dioxide fracture and out-gassing begins causing the first mechanical crack. These are the chemical reactions, occurring at approximately 356 degrees F, that are exothermic. Once caramelization begins, it is very important that the coffee mass does not exotherm (lose heat) or the coffee will taste "baked" in the cup. A possible explanation is that exothermy of the charge mass interrupts long chain polymerization and allows cross linking to other constituents. Both the actual melting point of sucrose and the subsequent transformation, or caramelization, reaction are affected by the presence of water, ammonia, and proteinaceous substances. Dark roasts represent a higher degree of sugar caramelization than light roasts. The degree of caramelization is an excellent and high resolution method for classifying roasts."


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

@Emily I previously found this video by Hoffmann quite useful when it comes to coffee tasting:


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## Emily (Dec 27, 2020)

Tinkstar said:


> Lots of things to try, but I think I need a better grinder.


 Did the fix not work how you wanted? ☹ Do you know what you're gonna get? Don't say Niche Zero 🤣🤣



Tinkstar said:


> Emily, keep that head up and keep going!


 Thank you I will! ☺


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## Tinkstar (Nov 27, 2020)

Emily said:


> Did the fix not work how you wanted? ☹ Do you know what you're gonna get? Don't say Niche Zero 🤣🤣
> 
> Thank you I will! ☺


 I did fix it yes, works lovely but I don't think I can grind fine enough for espresso. Meaning to check if the burs can move / should I replace burrs (not that expensive)

And no clue which. I'm tempted for the £300 niche replacement 🤣🤣🤣


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