# Copies of Tampers and Accessories



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

This morning on Facebook I noticed a Chinese company producing items very similar to the PUSH tamper and OCD tool.









This got me thinking.

How many people are willing to buy knockoffs because the price is (or could be) considerably cheaper?

Or do you save up a little bit more for the real item?

Does availability play a part in the decision (if the original has supply chain delays due to popularity)?

Interested to hear both sides of the argument.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

With the push its a mute point - you just can't buy one.... Too long from reveal to market ( knock offs will happen )


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I do feel like some of the new tampers and accessories are overpriced, which has put em off considering a push or OCD tool (actual availability aside).

I might consider a Chinese knock off, depends on how good it is (I appreciate the real things have a high degree of precision) and the cost savings. A wonky tamper is no good to anyone.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

For me these things are always a safety issue. I'm also very involved in babywearing, and cheap fakes are downright dangerous to carry babies in, and I'm guessing the same could be true with coffee kit, toxic paint, bits dropping off. That said if it was £10 not £100 and wasn't electrical I might be tempted, but would probably regret it. I'm not a "high end for the sake of high end" consumer, I want functional and useable.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Missy said:


> For me these things are always a safety issue. I'm also very involved in babywearing, and cheap fakes are downright dangerous to carry babies in, and I'm guessing the same could be true with coffee kit, toxic paint, bits dropping off. That said if it was £10 not £100 and wasn't electrical I might be tempted, but would probably regret it. I'm not a "high end for the sake of high end" consumer, I want functional and useable.


Yeah cheap Chinese Electrical items are a huge issue at the moment.

Look on Youtube at the amount of outright dangerous LED's that are nowhere near their supposed wattage and can give you a nice 240v zap if you touch the exposed contacts. Completely illegal of course, but hard to clamp down on.

I've seen people on the internet continue buying them because they are so much cheaper than buying in a shop, or believing just because they have glass covering they are 'safe' ones.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Depends on the definition of "knock off".

If sold under a fake label, i.e. as a Push tamper - then no

If sold in a way that someone's intellectual property is infringed - then no

If sold as a similar item with neither of the above - depends on the saving, maybe

A mate of mine works for one of the big agro-chemical companies. It is his job to identify counterfeit products, typically orginating in China. The only way he could tell them apart was that the Chinese product had slightly better thermal stability.

So we shouldn't assume that all Chinese products are inferior.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Quite right, not all Chinese products are inferior.

Some have better tolerances (narrower) than those manufactured elsewhere.

Some are even improved versions of the original.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

What happened to the counterfeit Rocket machines?


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I have one 'knock-off' of a seriously expensive watch (£5000+) as a curiosity otherwise I wouldn't buy anything which could be classed as fake. However, if the item just looks like an existing product with no intent to deceive then yes.

E.g. I had a Chinese stainless steel tamper which was pretty much the same design as an Italian one for my first machine which cost £12 and very good it was too.

Since push tampers are almost impossible to buy and very expensive I might well risk a few quid on a Chinese version.


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## MSM (Mar 12, 2015)

I think I would buy the knockoffs if the price was right.

I probably would not do so for electrical goods but PUSH tampers and OCD tools I would.

I guess it comes down to wanting a bargain and what I am willing to pay.

I would not pay £100+ for the OCD, would I like one - yes - but I am not in a position to buy one at that price.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

My other pastime is vaping and I'm a member of numerous groups on Facebook and the Chinese copies are a no no as far as I'm concerned in that circle, build quality and materials used are substandard.

I'd prefer to pay a little more to back the designers of the originals.

I'd back the time spent from design on paper to bringing it to manufacture over cheap stolen ideas and substandard materials


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Quite often (or even very often) the originals are made in China, yet the sellers still charge for them as if they were made in Europe for example. I understand that a product's price isn't only the cost of manufacturing, but with simple products it's really hard to justify the price tags in such a scenario. Have a look at tampers for example, it's a lump of metal which can be made very precisely on a CNC machine in batches (large amounts) for very little monies, charging in excess of a £100 is an extortion imho, so I'm not surprised that people want to buy the same thing cheaper elsewhere. For anything else which is more complicated or somehow safety related I reckon most customers would think twice before buying cheaper as in the end it they may pay twice.

T.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

It seems like some people think that innovative products and the effort put into the R&D does not inflate the price. QA, certifications, etc. cost money, too.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I have a replica Rolex with a nato strap (the old Bond style), was a pressie. It's got a Seiko movement so probably better than some normal brands. I don't purposely source knock offs.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

PPapa said:


> It seems like some people think that innovative products and the effort put into the R&D does not inflate the price. QA, certifications, etc. cost money, too.


I completely agree. R&D is a very significant investment and quite rightly has to be reflected in the cost of the item.

However, I have very little sympathy for companies that don't bother protecting their invention with some robust IP and then start moaning that other companies are stealing their technology.

It's a bit of a minefield as there are some territories that are considerably more relaxed when it comes to IP infringement. These should all be things that are considered by any company at an early stage when looking to bring a product to market. The world is full of great ideas that never got off the ground because companies didn't know how to exploit them properly. One of the key advantages held by an orginator is being first to market. Establish yourself and your product as a brand and everyone is then playing catch up.

As Martin says, long delays between a reveal and a launch is asking for trouble.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

There was a guy on one of the bike forums who was spending a lot of time and money designing and developing stuff for forum members, and adding them to his product portfolio. With UK business rates and reasonable prices he was just about breaking even. Since the Chinese started ripping off his designs he's gone to the wall. Any fool can copy an idea, but when all the innovators have given up trying, the game's up. It's unsustainable and unfortunately these days people know the price of everything and the value of nothing. Then again, I'm still confused as to why a tamper is such a hard thing to develop. That's not meant in an inflammatory way, genuine curiosity (probably cos I've never seen a push and therefore don't know how much R&D has gone into it). I feel a bit sorry for them having developed it and then had the design stolen.


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

Removed


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Mahlgut are advertising their new prototype levelling tool on facebook and it looks suspiciously identical to the OCD


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

dsc said:


> Quite often (or even very often) the originals are made in China, yet the sellers still charge for them as if they were made in Europe for example. I understand that a product's price isn't only the cost of manufacturing, but with simple products it's really hard to justify the price tags in such a scenario. Have a look at tampers for example, it's a lump of metal which can be made very precisely on a CNC machine in batches (large amounts) for very little monies, charging in excess of a £100 is an extortion imho, so I'm not surprised that people want to buy the same thing cheaper elsewhere. For anything else which is more complicated or somehow safety related I reckon most customers would think twice before buying cheaper as in the end it they may pay twice.
> 
> T.


When I first joined this forum I was shot down in flames for suggesting this. But it's so true. Obviously demand plays into it a lot. If it's a special bit of wood for the handle etc. Price will be more. But the tamper base is not a complex shape, a doddle in mastercam or similar to design, and a CNC lathe with a bar feed will churn these out all day and night. 2 setups max? Obviously the smaller the operation the higher the cost, but for a big machine shop with the bar stock on hand anyway then it's so simple.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

hotmetal said:


> Then again, I'm still confused as to why a tamper is such a hard thing to develop. That's not meant in an inflammatory way, genuine curiosity (probably cos I've never seen a push and therefore don't know how much R&D has gone into it). I feel a bit sorry for them having developed it and then had the design stolen.


It's definitely less complicated than other things you could think of. Some UAVs crashing due to "prevention of the prevention" caused $2.5M even without any casualties.

Both of A320's engines lost full thrust because the aircraft hit a flock of Canadian geese (I like this one in particular, even if it's not related to UAVs yet it's fairly recent, 2009 IIRC, and had 155 people on board).

Damn there was an accident when pilots lost a UAV because it went into a stealth mode (aka battery saving and disabled the transceiver so the radars couldn't detect it) due to a failure (can't remember why). The remote pilot(s) must have freaked out as they knew there was an RPAS flying in circles yet they didn't have any control of it and couldn't see it.

Yeah, that sounds worse and it's a reason why FAA/CAA just says "oh sorry, the controlled airspace is exceptionally safe and we won't develop rules exceptionally for UAS as you have to prove that it's extremely safe and SAA (Sense And Avoid) systems make sure that the collision is extremely impossible".

Tampers, on the other hand, don't have that great funding and the companies are a lot smaller. Market/interest is smaller as well, hence someone has to pay for it.

P.s. Sorry for the slight offtopic, my dissertation is due tomorrow and I can't look at it anymore.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Wow! Is your dissertation on flight safety? In that context, turning a bit of steel bar and threading it, lock mechanism and finishing notwithstanding, is looking pretty simple by comparison. Good luck with your work (especially if it's on flight safety, but anyhow).


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

hotmetal said:


> Wow! Is your dissertation on flight safety? In that context, turning a bit of steel bar and threading it, lock mechanism and finishing notwithstanding, is looking pretty simple by comparison. Good luck with your work (especially if it's on flight safety, but anyhow).


I'm a software engineer, so prior to last year I had no knowledge or interest in aeronautics! Had to take a crash course called "let's read few thousands of pages in a month". That accident of aircraft hitting geese has a report of 213 pages!

Don't worry, what I've been working on (it's software engineering project rather than research) won't hurt people. But I crashed many aircrafts in simulations







.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Crash course? Hmm, don't like the name of that! Bird strikes do happen though and need to be assessed so resistance can be designed in. I used to be involved (somewhat obliquely and at low level) with stuff like that at what is now BAe. There was a legend going around about firing chickens at plane windscreens at high speed to simulate bird strike at flying speed. Our kit passed all the UK tests, but the Americans complained that when they replicated the tests, the screens would shatter. They forgot to defrost the chickens!

Sorry for going yet further off topic.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm all for including R&D costs in the final cost of the product, but if we are talking about tampers, there's hardly any R&D involved. Yes the Push might be slightly different because it has no handle, but I'm fairly sure there was a tamper on the market already which had a shoulder to rest on the top of the basket edge, so this is not breaking new ground. Besides, it's not rocket science, it's a bloody rod cut down to size and turned down to a specific diameter, charging ~£100 for a mass produced one (Perg for example) is way over the top imho, although it would probably make sense if it was a one-off done on a manual lather for example.

As for IP protection, patents etc. it's all a bit of a joke as you'd need separate protection per country and China is out of reach anyway. Besides you need to be prepared to go full force if someone copies your design, this means your wallet needs to be thicker than Trump's considering solicitor charges in the UK. You are either first on the market, way above the rest in quality and with good enough prices or you go down painfully, that is the cruel truth I'm afraid (especially in coffee).

T.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Going for +/-0.05mm, what sort of percentage would you be chucking away at QC stage?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

If it was me, I wouldn't chuck them away at all. I'd flog them for £39.99 with full disclosure of the actual diameter. If someone needs it to be certified to the nearest 0.05mm they can pay full price. I'd be as happy with 58.4 as with 58.55 so if it was £40 instead of £100 and measured 58.46 then happy days. Begs the question whether this would cannibalise their market though - I could envisage a waiting list for out-of-spec ones!


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Proper CNC machining centre would plonk them out with +/-0.01mm unless there was something wrong with the tooling (dims with go off as the tools dull, but you can probably calculate when it's time to change inserts so it's not a big issue). There's also auto feed for the bar stock, so all you have to do is program them, set a batch and go do other things. +/-0.05mm isn't anything impressive even when doing manual operations on a standard lathe, so I doubt you'd have a lot of QC issues, unless someone wasn't paying attention or simply not give a sh*t.

T.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

dsc said:


> (dims with go off as the tools dull, but you can probably calculate when it's time to change inserts so it's not a big issue).
> 
> T.


Yup, software can calculate and account for all of this, even Compensating as the tool starts to wear. However I'm not sure if you'd really be producing enough of these to warrant that level of attention. That's more 'set and forget' for machining centres that are running 24/7 where you need minimum down time.

I wonder how much of the price of the Perg is the fact it's got his name attached to it


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## Toby-IOM (Aug 8, 2012)

Sorry if this is disrespectful to the original product, but I would be much happier buying a knock off when you consider the price point of the genuine item.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

By the time the Push gets to the market no doubt things will have changed and the Pull will be well into r & d!


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> By the time the Push gets to the market no doubt things will have changed and the Pull will be well into r & d!


I'm waiting for the Shove


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Forget that - the 'sTamp' is where it's at. 80+kg applied by foot pressure ensures an even bed.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Going for +/-0.05mm, what sort of percentage would you be chucking away at QC stage?


With tampers do you think they do Q/C checks ? Judging by the variation as measured by forum members Q = if it's near enough it's good enough.







:exit:


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> With tampers do you think they do Q/C checks ? Judging by the variation as measured by forum members Q = if it's near enough it's good enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There should not be that much variance though, torrs are checked before Jenns sends them out and have found them pretty precise, perhaps that is because they are german engineered


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

risky said:


> I wonder how much of the price of the Perg is the fact it's got his name attached to it


How much more is the Pergtamp when compared to other Pullman made tampers like the BigStep? A BigStep base is almost as much as a whole Pergtamp...


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

El carajillo said:


> With tampers do you think they do Q/C checks ? Judging by the variation as measured by forum members Q = if it's near enough it's good enough.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Depends on the brand. Very surprised by the variance in the Reg barber in the for sale section. No idea why that would be so far out.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

MWJB said:


> How much more is the Pergtamp when compared to other Pullman made tampers like the BigStep? A BigStep base is almost as much as a whole Pergtamp...


Valid point.

Big step, (base only?): £116

Pergtamp: £99.50


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

risky said:


> Valid point.
> 
> Big step, (base only?): £116
> 
> Pergtamp: £99.50


Or £75 from CoffeeChap!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Apparently there is a chinese knockoff of the HG1 grinder, which is supposedly made by the same company that manufactures it for the HG1 people...not sure how true it is?

http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/hg-1-clone-t40693-10.html#p461988


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Apparently there is a chinese knockoff of the HG1 grinder, which is supposedly made by the same company that manufactures it for the HG1 people...not sure how true it is?
> 
> http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/hg-1-clone-t40693-10.html#p461988


Heard this as well from someone deep in the refurb business, no idea how true it is.

As for zee german engineering, it's got nothing to do with country of origin, you either check part dimensions (or do sample checks in a batch production run) or you don't give a crap and assume all is well. Imho German engineering is a big myth nowadays anyway.

Anyone knows where Perger's or Pullmans are made?

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dsc said:


> Heard this as well from someone deep in the refurb business, no idea how true it is.
> 
> As for zee german engineering, it's got nothing to do with country of origin, you either check part dimensions (or do sample checks in a batch production run) or you don't give a crap and assume all is well. Imho German engineering is a big myth nowadays anyway.
> 
> ...


Pullmans look like an OZ man product

http://pullman.coffee/en/about-us


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

risky said:


> Depends on the brand. Very surprised by the variance in the Reg barber in the for sale section. No idea why that would be so far out.


I haven't a clue of Reg Barber prices tbh, as I got mine for £100.00 (but that included a free La Pavoni Europicolla Lusso and a free Isomac grinder







)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dsc said:


> Heard this as well from someone deep in the refurb business, no idea how true it is.
> 
> As for zee german engineering, it's got nothing to do with country of origin, you either check part dimensions (or do sample checks in a batch production run) or you don't give a crap and assume all is well. Imho German engineering is a big myth nowadays anyway.
> 
> ...


I did say German engineering tongue in cheek!


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Pullmans look like an OZ man product
> 
> http://pullman.coffee/en/about-us


So, convict labour then


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