# Fresh or pre-ground bean frustration.



## foxy (Nov 14, 2016)

I have used Lavazza Rossa beans in a Gaggia bean to cup for approximately 10 years with the odd trial of other beans. Changed about a month ago to a used Fracino Cherub and Mignon. Having had some good advice on here I bought some 10 days from roasted beans ( Milan mix ) from a local supplier and have had "fun" weighing, timing, dosing etc with a double basket . The result is still disappointing so I bought 250g of preground Lav. Rossa and even at a heavy tamping the shot goes straight through quickly...tried to grind it finer in the Mignon and was a slight improvement but no crema and still on the sour side.

My question is : why did the bean to cup machine give faultless cups of great coffee straight out of the box yet my attempts at replicating that have been frustrating. ??


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What weight are you dosing in the basket ?

What basket ?

What was the resultant weight out ? ( are you weighing out )

Do you have a decent metal tamper ? What size ?

Did the coffee you bought , have a roast date on it btw?

Pre Ground on a machine that has a proper espresso basket ( not a pressurised one on the bean to cup ) will never give you a good cup . No matter what you dose or how hard you tamp. Dont waste your money on supermarkets beans full stop .

I dont know the quality f the beans you bought locally , perhaps use a known roaster of here

Could be that the coffee is just not up to it .....as it sounds like you need to grind finer ? Did you get to the finest point on the mignon for example before you ran out of coffee ?

Taste is all relative , and depends on what your aiming for . The Bean 2 Cup may have been " consistent " in what it gave , but with a bit of skill and practice ( i would suggest 250g is not enough for this) then id hope you can make tastier drinks with the set up you have .

Making home espresso is a steep learning curve and takes some skill and a bit of practice . You either decide it's worth the effort and burn through some more beans or decide it's a mugs game . Personally id get 1kg of known fresh roasted beans that suit the tatstes you are after . Perhaps something from Coffee Compass or Rave .


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Hi! First questions: Are you sure the coffee is tasting sour and not bitter? If it's sour, it's likely the water in the machine is too cold. It's bitter, than the water is too hot. Are you leaving the machine to heat up for at least 45 mins and doing the appropriate cooling flushes routine (i.e.: purging all the flash boiling water from the heat exchanger).

When you say that you are weighing, timing, etc, are you ending up with a 1:2 ratio in the cup, in roughly 30 seconds? For instance, 18g in, 36g out?

"No crema". That can be a sign that you are not extracting the coffee properly, or the coffee is stale (well, it is pre-ground Lavazza. It's not only stale, it's also not ground fine enough). Trying to re-ground pre-ground coffee is not a good idea. It will simply not work, and will potentially just mess up your grinder.

Why the bean to cup is better? Not sure. Maybe it brews differently. Someone with better experience with those can give you a better explanation.

I had a mignon for years and that is more than a capable grinder. I also had it paired with an Heat Exchanger machine for a while and that was also fine.

Maybe you just need to understand and adjust your technique to your new equipment. Once you master it, you will certainly not regret it.


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## foxy (Nov 14, 2016)

Hi, thanks for your prompt reply:

14g in

36g out

Fracino std. double basket ( or 18g in a vst )

MBK 58mm tamper.

I have dealt with the local roaster and although he puts a "best before date " on his bags assured me it was then about 4 days after roasting. An earlier posting suggested a Milan blend with 100% Arabica might not be ideal if I like a Costa or Nero flat white.

I will try one of the roasters you mentioned soon to get back to basics.

I suspect I need to start with a good bean then follow the good advice on the forum and narrow things down a bit.


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## foxy (Nov 14, 2016)

Thanks pessutojr,

I looked up the sour / bitter discussion on the forum but had no conclusive answer ! I start pouring after at least 30 mins and purge the machine. I agree with the Lavazza being a not so fresh item but thought I would see if it got me a decent cuppa just in case.

As in my previous response I will have to adjust my technique to see if I can get a better result.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Best before , as opposed to a roast date does not fill me with confidence .

If he has nothing to hide with roast dates then they would be ion there .

Milan sounds like a typical dark roasted coffee akin to costa etc , but hard to say .

Nothing wrong with 100% arabica beans , I think costa dont use Robusta anymore .


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## foxy (Nov 14, 2016)

Agree about best before info. Had not realised Costa had possibly stopped adding robusta.

New beans it is !!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

foxy said:


> Agree about best before info. Had not realised Costa had possibly stopped adding robusta.
> 
> New beans it is !!


Depends what you drink , the old paradise street blend is 100% arabica

Once you get to grips with your set up , you will ditch the robusta blends .

Robusta - Its there to pad out coffee , cheapen the load, give a crema , so people think its " coffee and fresh looking " and a caffeine kick , taste wise on it's own , its awful.....


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Hi.

None of the Fracino HX machines require cooling flushes and if you are running more than a few seconds of water through the grouphead before use this could explain a sour taste. Fracino see a need for a cooling flush as an engineering design fault.

They make no big deal of this in their literature and I only know of this after reading about it in Reiss from Londinium's blog and then doing my research on this forum.

It was so at odds with what I had been told about HX machines that I actually rang them before purchase and was put straight through to the head of the design team for the Heavenly/cherub/classic who was very enthusiastic and insisted it was perfectly possible to engineer out the need for a cooling flush. If you look back through the Fracino forum, several members have done tests to check this ( admittedly with basic equipment ), and been happy with the results.

I hope this helps but it is strange that a Mignon can't grind fine enough to choke a Cherub. It should easily be able to do that.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

If your bean 2 cup machine had a pressurised filter that will make it consistent but consistently mediocre unfortunately. Appearance wise it will look tiptop but only because the way it works even poor beans or, apparently, even instant will develop a crema of sorts.


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## foxy (Nov 14, 2016)

Thank you cold war kid, your comments about the Fracino machines not needing a flush is good news but adds to my confusion as there are 2 schools of thought as was mentioned previously. In fairness I only release about a cup full of water each time to preheat the portafilter so I assume that sits midway between your thoughts and those of pessutojr above.

I have not had a problem with the Mignon and I know it will clog the Cherub easily and after looking at the many postings about what makes a decent coffee the general consensus seems to indicate that if it tastes good then it is OK which was my experience of my bean to cup.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I think pessutojr was talking about HX machines in general. Almost all will have water that is sat at flash point within them if left idle. Fracino and I think Rocket are the only ones who have worked around this problem.

To see if I could be of more help to you I ran 10 seconds of water through the grouphead of my Classico immediately prior to pulling a shot to see if it made it taste sour and it didn't I'm afraid.

Next time you have a shot try only running 20 mls or so through the grouphead to clear spent grinds then immediately pull your shot and see if that helps. That's what I always do and also what the design guy at Fracino told me they do in the office.


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## foxy (Nov 14, 2016)

Thanks for that info.

I will try that on my next experience session and hope it gets me nearer to getting a decent shot.


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