# Can someone explain long steep times?



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

When I read threads here I often come across people mentioning steep times of 30mins plus. Brew wise I have an aeropress, chemex, v60 and FP. I hadn't come across these long steep times before and wonder could somebody explain the reasoning behind it and what the technique would be for my gear, presumably the FP or aeropress. What stops it over extracting and how do you not end up with a cold cup of coffee( I don't mean u have to have my coffee roasting hot, I prefer my coffee cooler). Must pick up a ccd at some stage.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Both the CCD and Aeropress retain heat very very well. 30 mins or so results in something ready to drink straight away


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Do you stick with the normally advocated grinds for AP or really coarsen it up if you're going to a long steep?


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

My FP is one of the double walled ones. How course a grind should I go for and what typical doses are used? Do you add the water just after boiling of wait until it's cooled a little and is it coffee added to water or the other way round? Do you stir it or just let it sit? Sorry for all the questions.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

When you steep coffee there is no flow through the bed (mostly), the coffee sits in the water & infuses....this is a process that starts quickly - filling the FP pot by pouring water on the grinds agitates & extracts the coffee to a point, a lot happens in that first minute. Then, further extraction is a slow process. Happily, many coffees are particularly nice after a few minutes steep. There may be points of preference before it gets to the stage that the coffee is too cold to drink...no right/wrong...just what you personally are shooting for, but even if you let freshly ground, recently roasted coffee steep for an hour, it is unlikely that you will exceed 22% immersion yield...possibly 23% tops? In your French press, some of the liquid, with a significant coffee strength, will be trapped in the grinds, so you won't get everything of that 22-23% in the cup...you will get well developed coffee.

My sweetest French press & Sowden brews are extracted to ~22% immersion yield. Today & at the weekend I had delicious, acidic, juicy coffees extracted to 20% immersion yield....but ~21% seems to be a big flat spot...roasty, carbony, metallic flavours...if you hit this your best bet is to sit it out.

The Sowden is porcelain and holds heat well, I have stoneware press & double walled...but also the bigger volume of brew water is your ally here too. Even a single walled glass press hits my preferred sweetspot around the 30min mark & is plenty warm enough to enjoy, if brewing with 800g-900g of water.

With the Chemex & V60 (or any pourover), a very slow brew is really undesirable...the slower the water drains through the bed, the more solids it dissolves, & the coarser you need to grind to keep from overextracting (or conversely, grind finer and get the water through the bed quicker by pouring larger amounts into the brewer). You can certainly overextract these....very easily. This is going to sound totally nuts & bucks conventional wisdom, but if you can filter effectively & quickly enough to get a hot drink, you can often grind finer for steeped coffee than for pourover/drip....Yes, you read that right, I didn't write it back to front. You do need to keep a degree of silt out of metal filter/mesh brew though, this won't overextract per se, but the solids can have a bittering effect & kill sweetness & crispness.

The old CCD seems a bit of an odd'un...it extracts to a higher number, but the sweetness shifts up too. Too short a steep and you can be well under what you might get in a French press...again, a big flat spot between juicy & sweetest. If you think about the way most people brew with them, you put the grinds in the filter paper, bloom, wait, fill & steep. What happens at the start is water passes through the bed at the bloom - you get a degree of extraction, then you fill, trapping this concentrated early part under the paper & steep the partially extracted coffee bed in the water above the filter. Then everything above the bed must go through the bed again to get out of the brewer. I haven't been able to tell whether it picks up any more TDS draining, or whether you are adding regular steeped coffee to the little bit of concentrate that was nestling under the filter...but the CCD (old model) typically overshoots the expected TDS & yield. It's not always a problem if you can avoid the flat spot.

I like to add the coffee after the water in all steeped methods, the coffee hits the water at a more even temp, agitation (otherwise achieved through the filling pour) is now totally controlled by you. I just gently fold in the grinds to wet them, then a quick stir & leave it to steep.

The new CCD has a bigger well under the paper, so grounds above the paper are trapped in a smaller volume of water...I'm thinking this slows extraction, then because of the bigger space under the brewer, some of the coffee can bypass the bed at draw down. For the same dose, brew ratio & protocol, the new CCD extracts around 1%-2% less than the old one in terms of yield, quicker draw down...Aim for juicy...I'm out of ideas of how to hit the sweetness I get from other steeped methods. Today's HB Finca Los Alpes Pacamara was delicious, juicy, sweet in the new CCD with a 37minute steep - 20% immersion yield.

With both CCD's it is perfectly possible to taste the steeping coffee & draw down when it's at your preference. The old one was hard to overextract (flavourwise, if not gold cup-wise...but remember there were no CCDs when the gold cup was established), the new one seems impossible to overextract, unless you use it as a straight pourover.

The 60's CBI research that established 4-6minutes for French press was aimed at folks using preground, supermarket coffee, brewing at 56g/l & was probably a safe margin even for that. "Contact time" & overextraction is more relevant to drip/pourover/espresso than steeped coffee (unless that coffee is what we would call "stale").

The most important thing to remember with steeped coffee, is that if it doesn't taste great when it's in the brewer, it won't taste any better in the cup! Taste before you pour/drain!


----------



## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

MWJB said:


> When you steep coffee there is no flow through the bed (mostly), the coffee sits in the water & infuses....this is a process that starts quickly - filling the FP pot by pouring water on the grinds agitates & extracts the coffee to a point, a lot happens in that first minute. Then, further extraction is a slow process. Happily, many coffees are particularly nice after a few minutes steep. There may be points of preference before it gets to the stage that the coffee is too cold to drink...no right/wrong...just what you personally are shooting for, but even if you let freshly ground, recently roasted coffee steep for an hour, it is unlikely that you will exceed 22% extraction...possibly 23% tops? In your French press, some of the liquid, with a significant coffee strength, will be trapped in the grinds, so you won't get everything of that 22-23% in the cup...you will get well developed coffee.
> 
> My sweetest French press & Sowden brews are extracted to ~22% immersion yield. Today & at the weekend I had delicious, acidic, juicy coffees extracted to 20% immersion yield....but ~21% seems to be a big flat spot...roasty, carbony, metallic flavours...if you hit this your best bet is to sit it out.
> 
> ...


I'm going to have to read over that a few times to get my head round it but I'll have to experiment. I'll need some time though! Maybe I'll need a tds meter.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You only need a meter of any kind to help you hit a specific target, a balance of extraction & TDS, I find my refractometer very useful, but for the great tasting steeped brews...I don't pour, or put them through the meter until they taste great in the brewer, it mostly confirms what I already know/taste. It's a big boon though, when you don't know which way to turn & certainly for drip...in fact just having the VST software will help your pourovers, it's the closest thing to a magic trick I've seen recently.

Because I'm aiming for a higher yield in steeps, I keep the dose in the FP/Sowden a little lower, 56-58g/l. Old CCD 63-66g/l, new one 56-62g/l. Sowden grind is the coarsest because the grinds sit in the brewer suspended in a mesh, so bits get through the wall of the filter when you pour. FP is like gritty sand/caster sugar & don't disturb the bed when pouring (I also use espresso grind if filtering again through paper), fine as you like with the CCDs.

Water is usually Volvic at home (my tap water isn't great for long steeps), out of the tap at work (1/2 mile away, same water TDS, go figure), have to use glass kettles at home (cheap electric kettle taints the water), work's kettle is fine, as is my parent's steel kettle. Water off boil...30-40secs from when it becomes still, or straight after it stops rolling if I want to accentuate acidity... you can also add half, dose with coffee, add remainder. Strike temp of the water makes a difference, but once all the water is in with the wet grinds, you're not going to be much over 90C.

There are plenty of ways to screw up a steep, but overextraction is one of the least likely.


----------



## CrazyH (Jan 14, 2011)

I've found that I've been getting better results of late by using slightly less coffee, being a bit more careful with cooling off the water and leaving for longer in the french press. I was going with has-bean's recommendation of 75g/l which translated to 25g, not doing more like 18-20.

In the bigger french press I usually put the water in first, but after heating it with a bit of hot water beforehand so it doesn't suddenly drop in temp. However in the small one there's not much surface area so after putting the coffee in it's quite fiddly to wet all the gronds due to a thicker bed, so would need a lot of fairly aggressive stirring.

I'd quite like to try something like an espro (double walled), start with a lower temperature that will hold and steep for a long time.


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

I did a 30 min FP, usually 7 mins and I get a lot of nice acidity.

At 30 mins, lots of body and surprisingly not that bitter.

Still a little too bitter though, I think I was one click too tight on the grind.

Probably about a V60 grind.

I usually go pretty tight with my FP anyway.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kyle548 said:


> I did a 30 min FP, usually 7 mins and I get a lot of nice acidity.
> 
> At 30 mins, lots of body and surprisingly not that bitter.
> 
> ...


Go longer, don't go coarser (unless you're getting silt in the cup, which can be bittering), I have only had bitterness for steeps stopped too short. Today's 2 FP's were sandy grind on a Hario Slim, 56g/l, Bodum dual walled Columbia steel press, HB Nicaragua Escondida Washed Catuai, 40 mins & 60 mins, both sweet, gentle lime, with a chocolate biscuit (Bourbon/Oreo) aftertaste.

That said, I do enjoy juicer, acidic, shorter steeps with certain beans.


----------



## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Go longer, don't go coarser (unless you're getting silt in the cup, which can be bittering), I have only had bitterness for steeps stopped too short. Today's 2 FP's were sandy grind on a Hario Slim, 56g/l, Bodum dual walled Columbia steel press, HB Nicaragua Escondida Washed Catuai, 40 mins & 60 mins, both sweet, gentle lime, with a chocolate biscuit (Bourbon/Oreo) aftertaste.
> 
> That said, I do enjoy juicer, acidic, shorter steeps with certain beans.


I drink from a 6oz cup but use the same press as you (350ml).

There was quite a lot of silt in the bottom of the decanter.

I think the grind I used was far too fine, probably in the AP it would be pretty difficult to press down so I would be tempted to try two clicks coarser and maybe 45 mins steep....

I don't quite understand why stopping short will make the brew bitter; obviously brewed coffee extracts in an entirely different way to espresso.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Kyle548 said:


> I don't quite understand why stopping short will make the brew bitter; obviously brewed coffee extracts in an entirely different way to espresso.


It's either a flat spot in extraction level (you get this in espresso too), with espresso it's much easier to overextract...not at all easy to extract to the same level (23%+) in an FP. Both can be a bit tricky to extract to the sweetest spot.

Other alternative is the silt is bittering things up, pour as much as you can through the lid/mesh before you plunge, then plunge, wait a little & pour the last bit.


----------



## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

To those using long steep times, do you fully pre-heat the CCD or FP before brewing? I found that, in order to start brewing at a temperature of ~90C (measured in the CCD after adding water and coffee) I need to pour boiling water into the CCD, with a filter paper (no coffee) for a minute or two. I then empty it, add grounds, pre-infuse for 30 secs with water just off the boil, then add the rest of the water. The contents of the CCD then measure just over 90C at the start. Without the pre-heat it's a lot lower, so I wonder if that's the key to long steep times - starting the brew at a lower temperature (by no pre-heating). I tried a 30min brew using my pre-heat technique, but it came out very bitter and over-extracted (not to mention a little too cold for my preference).


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I always preheat . What coffee you using to get bitterness ?

I find in the CCD a 30 min steep still too hot to drink immediately , needs 5 mins to cool in the cup !


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

gcogger said:


> To those using long steep times, do you fully pre-heat the CCD or FP before brewing? I found that, in order to start brewing at a temperature of ~90C (measured in the CCD after adding water and coffee) I need to pour boiling water into the CCD, with a filter paper (no coffee) for a minute or two. I then empty it, add grounds, pre-infuse for 30 secs with water just off the boil, then add the rest of the water. The contents of the CCD then measure just over 90C at the start. Without the pre-heat it's a lot lower, so I wonder if that's the key to long steep times - starting the brew at a lower temperature (by no pre-heating). I tried a 30min brew using my pre-heat technique, but it came out very bitter and over-extracted (not to mention a little too cold for my preference).


If I have the option & spare hot water to allow preheating, then I do. But large brew volumes don't always allow that from one kettle full (most of my steeps are ~1litre, no preheat). I have measured a start temp of 92C in a non-preheated CCD, no bloom.

I don't personally add the grinds first in the CCD when steeping, ony when rinsing, what brew ratio are you using, is it the old, or new type?

You say it's "overextracted", this suggests a specific state of affairs, unlikely to occur in a CCD steep....I don't doubt you find bitterness, or dislike the result...but I very much doubt that overextraction is the cause. Temperature drop...well that is an issue with the CCD, but points more to lower yields than higher. If there was an earlier point wher you may have preferred the coffee, why didn't you draw down then? However long you steep, the key is taste & kill the extraction at your preference.

Whatever the strike temp of the water, by the time water & coffee are combined, you're going to be around the 90C mark, if you think about the length of the steep...you are only going to stay above 90C for a tiny proportion of the brew time, it's not irrelevant, but I really don't think it has a huge impact in the final outcome. Whatever your start temp, it may affect flavour (acidity vs sweetness), but it's not going to offer any fast track to a good extraction level.

Today's FP (no preheat, 32g/750g) took 30mins & was too hot to drink straight away.


----------



## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I always preheat . What coffee you using to get bitterness ?
> 
> I find in the CCD a 30 min steep still too hot to drink immediately , needs 5 mins to cool in the cup !


I believe it was the Papua New Guinea from coffeebeanshop (which I'd say was just on the dark side of medium roast). I guess you drink coffee at a lower temperature than I do











MWJB said:


> If I have the option & spare hot water to allow preheating, then I do. But large brew volumes don't always allow that from one kettle full (most of my steeps are ~1litre, no preheat). I have measured a start temp of 92C in a non-preheated CCD, no bloom.
> 
> I don't personally add the grinds first in the CCD when steeping, ony when rinsing, what brew ratio are you using, is it the old, or new type?
> 
> ...


I think the volume plays it's part - if you're brewing more coffee it will cool more slowly during the brew, and end up hotter. I arrived at the pre-heat method by trial and error, as I simply preferred the coffee that way. I'm afraid I don't know which CCD I have - how do you tell the difference? (I'm at ~60g/l ratio). You may be right that it wasn't over-extracted, but it certainly tasted bitter and unpleasant. The grind was somewhere between a filter and a french press grind.

I think I'll stick with my current method, however, since it doesn't come out hot enough for my preference after 30mins in the CCD! I'm not sure I want to wait over 1/2 hour for a coffee either


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Then you are better off either killing the extraction in a steep where it is at it's juiciest/brightest, or using the CCD for a preinfuse, then rinsing the grinds like with a pourover. Even after 30mins the coffee should still be around the same temp as an espresso pour.

The new CCDs are smoked plastic, as opposed to clear, & have a "C" shaped handle (old is more 'ear' shaped), recessed groove in the lid (old lid just has a lip around the edge).

I brew in a French press at a grind as fine, or finer than a lot of filter brews. I brew finer in the CCD...but that doesn't mean you have to...a coarse, short steep & drain can work for brighter brews.

If you want your coffee quick & hot, pourover does that.


----------



## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

It looks like I have the old CCD, from your description. I'll have to try a V60 one of these days...


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

gcogger said:


> It looks like I have the old CCD, from your description. I'll have to try a V60 one of these days...


..or start with the CCD on a cup & use it as a straight pourover ;-)


----------



## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

MWJB said:


> ..or start with the CCD on a cup & use it as a straight pourover ;-)


Lol.







Yes, I suppose I could do that!


----------



## chrisah1 (Nov 21, 2013)

Wow. I seem to be very low tech when it comes to my french pot. Just about to get a grinder for dedicated french pot use (the dualit I hope) let alone put all this thought in. So far I've been buying 100g of ground coffee at a time so I run through it in 4/5 days. Not ideal. Anyway. this is what I do:

Fill cafetiere with hot water and leave to warm up.

As water comes near to temp I empty it out and fill up 40-50g/l - I have a "4 cup" single walled press so 25g is usually perfect with 550ml.

Coffee is just coarse enough not to be silty, but still a bit fine for french press.

I then make sure the water is a bit hotter than I need as I pour.

Stir. Then I let it sit for five mins. small plunge - taste - if ok drink, if not leave.

Next step - double walled cafetiere so I can drink more slowly!


----------

