# Piccino vs Cherub



## origmarm

I thought I would start a thread on the differences between the Piccino and Cherub/Heavenly. From what I can tell it's essentially:

- Dual boiler vs HX

- E61 Group

- Hot water on demand

Which would suggest that essentially from a usability perspective what you are paying for is the E61 group clone (preference for dual boiler vs HX aside as both will allow simultaneous steaming/shots) if you're not much of a hot water user. That and the looks etc... but it seems to me that the Piccino is still going to be a big step up from a single boiler for not much cash (say Silvia vs Piccino)

Thoughts?


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## shrink

well a single larger boiler is always going to hold heat better than two smaller ones, and will be thermally more stable in that respect. You'll also always get better steaming power from a larger boiler, so the steaming power on the piccino is likely to be reduced as a result, and recovery time is likely to be slightly longer.

The HX machine should be inherently more thermally stable, as as its pushing both hold and cold water around the E61 style head, so unless you're leaving the machine on for hours on end without use, it should be good to go without a need to do much else. A quick flush through the head is probably just good practice.

On a dual boiler machine, you're still going to have to do a degree of temp surfing. Working out where the boiler is at, flushing the group to bring it up to temp etc. I just think dual boilers are more hassle. Theres also no easy way to de-scale the steam boiler on the piccino, and a steam boiler by its very nature will gather more scale than a brew boiler. This will mean sending it away for a professional de-scale more often.

Then add in the lack of hot water on demand, and i think the piccino athough a great bargain, just doesnt stack up against the cherub. If it did, i'd have bought one and saved myself a few quid!!

so to summarise the benefits of the cherub are:

-thermally more stable

-2.3L boiler vs 2x 300 (ish)

-larger boiler for better steaming power and quicker recovery

-E61 brew head

-water on demand

-simple to de-scale (although with built in filtration now, thats less necessary)

-steam wand is easier to get at and has more movement, and in fact the open design of the whole machine would make using it easier IMHO


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## aphelion

Apparently you have to return your Piccino to Fracino for de-scaling - there is no easy way of removing the descaling solution from the steam tank.


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## jimbow

As Shrink said. Unless the brew boiler is PID controlled and fresh cold water is pre-heated before it enters the brew boiler then there will still be temperature instability in the double boiler design. Many of the higher end double boiler designs like those found on LM, Synesso, etc. incorporate these features but they come at a price over simpler double boiler and HX designs.

Also worth considering that whilst the Cherub works well in a domestic setting it is actually aimed at a slightly different market than the Piccino. The Cherub is actually a semi-professional machine aimed at low volume commercial market whereas the Piccino is aimed squarely at the domestic market. It has substantially more steaming capacity than the Piccino - the steam boiler on the Piccino is a similar size to a coke can whereas the Cherub's is larger than a 2L plastic coke bottle + has a really powerful heating element. The powerful heating element on the larger boiler could arguably use more electricity (if running costs are an issue) than two smaller boilers with smaller elements.


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## shrink

yeah i think for me, the power use is the only down side. I think a timer will help cut down on that. kick the machine on, in time for me waking up, and in time for me coming home!


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## CoffeeChris

aphelion said:


> Apparently you have to return your Piccino to Fracino for de-scaling - there is no easy way of removing the descaling solution from the steam tank.


I spoke to fracino about descaling the other day and she said as long as you change the filter every 3 months there should be no need to De scale

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2


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## shrink

That's very optimistic of them. Even with a filter, some scale will build up. You can't make a machine 100% scale proof.

It just might mean a professional descale once every 2 years rather than once a year


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## CoffeeChris

shrink said:


> That's very optimistic of them. Even with a filter, some scale will build up. You can't make a machine 100% scale proof.
> 
> It just might mean a professional descale once every 2 years rather than once a year


I would hope that at £20 for a filter it should help. One thing she did say was that it's too early to tell as the machine was not even a year old... But she was quite sure descaling was more for commercial machines with high volume outputs. Time will tell I guess.. Just thought I would let people know as there's a few messages on here about the piccino needing descaling

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2


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## shrink

They are Britta filters which you should be able to get for less elsewhere. It also depends on your local water. I have very soft water here, and with the filter, im hoping a descale will be a very very rare task indeed.


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## CoffeeChris

I currently get them from a european site. They are not a standard britta filter. Not many places sell them....not that I can find anyway So find it cheaper to buy in bulk from europe!


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## shrink

Interesting, because on the fracino website, the part number for the Piccino filter is a Britta part number


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## skenno

Are HX machines any quicker to warm up than a single boiler ? Wondering if there's a machine that could be switched on and ready to go in seconds rather than half an hour, in case of surprise guests - Or is that just wishful thinking?!


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## shrink

It's not the boiler temp that's the issue, it only takes a few mins to warm up. It's the pipes, the group, the shower screen, etc. they all need to warm up too for a good shot. That takes time.


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## ronsil

As much as the time for the boiler(s) to heat up, the heavy grouphead & PF with possibly a lot of brass involved take a good 20 minutes to be ready.

There is no ready short cut for this although it can help, if the boiler is big enough, to pass hot water through the group & PF


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## skenno

Ah, that's a shame, for a second I thought I'd planned my next machine!


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## CoffeeChris

It is a Britta filter. But it's not something that many sell. Try searching for that model on Google. Brings little results or the same cost as what fracino sell for

Sent from my HTC One S using Tapatalk 2


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## ObsidianSage

shrink said:


> Interesting, because on the fracino website, the part number for the Piccino filter is a Britta part number


Rightly or wrongly I have taken to filtering my water in a jug using Britta maxtra cartridges. The price of the official filter seems way OTT and I have never been convinced that it actually does anything because I don't see how it draws water through the cartridge.


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## beachouse

ObsidianSage said:


> Rightly or wrongly I have taken to filtering my water in a jug using Britta maxtra cartridges. The price of the official filter seems way OTT and I have never been convinced that it actually does anything because I don't see how it draws water through the cartridge.


I do the same. They have the same resin/coal stuff inside. Can't see any difference. I'm sure Fracino and Britta will tell you it's serious crime.


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## beachouse

shrink said:


> It's not the boiler temp that's the issue, it only takes a few mins to warm up. It's the pipes, the group, the shower screen, etc. they all need to warm up too for a good shot. That takes time.


This is very fast with the Piccino as the brew boiler is right on top of the group


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## SadikYP

I am @ the moment in the process of buying my first machine.

Piccino Vs Cherub/Heavenly is a question I've been asking myself. The two small boilers is a concern to me and I live in a very hard water area.

a DB for a little more than the price of a Silvia is mighty tempting, I'm going to have to keep a level head and evaluate all the info I can find before I make some hasty impulse buy.


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## Wobin19

I would say get the Cherub, you will not regret it and from what I can see, the cost difference does not seem huge, especially with the benefits already mentioned. I would be biased though as I have one!

Previously I had a Gaggia Deluxe which was a lot more finicky and very hit and miss with shot consistency, but quicker to warm up being a small single boiler. I can't say I have noticed the warm up time of the Cherub being any issue at all....

Good luck!


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## SadikYP

Are the internals of the Cherub & Heavenly identical?


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## Wobin19

From my previous research and from memory I believe they are very similar - just a larger tank in the heavenly 4.5 vs 3l and a bigger casing, but someone may well correct me...


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## Wobin19

Just to clarify thats the water tank, the boilers are the same at 2.3l. Paste this into your browser...

http://www.fracino.com/machines/hand-fill-coffee-machines/heavenly-and-cherub.html


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## jimbow

Also, the hot water tap comes as standard on the Cherub but is an optional extra on the Heavenly.


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## SadikYP

This will be my first machine purchase and have no idea with regards to the going 2nd hand prices.

I've been offered a used Piccino for £200. (a little over 2 years old) Is that an okay price?


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