# Which pour-over brewer should I use?



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A bit of fun, a bit of an experiment...I've just used my last V60 paper, so what should I use next (perhaps someone has a non V60 pour-over they're having issues with)?

Melitta 102 in plastic, or ceramic.

Kalita Wave 185

Kalita Caffe Uno

Bartleet ceramic cone (like a Melitta but with 3 holes).

Wilfa pour-over cone (manual, not auto drip).

Also Brewista smart steep (grey brewer with a valve) and Bonavita Immersion brewer, but I'd use these for drip brews, not steeps).


----------



## whinmoor85 (Jul 4, 2013)

MWJB said:


> A bit of fun, a bit of an experiment...I've just used my last V60 paper, so what should I use next (perhaps someone has a non V60 pour-over they're having issues with)?
> 
> Melitta 102 in plastic, or ceramic.
> 
> ...


 In case you haven't used that last filter - go Brewista 🙂


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

whinmoor85 said:


> In case you haven't used that last filter - go Brewista 🙂


 OK, dose 13.4g ground at 32 on Wilfa flat (coarse ~8% at 400Kruve).

Valve closed on Brewista, water poured with a Hario Buono, via a steel can strainer suspended on a pair of chopsticks.

0:00 44g poured in a fast spiral (~13s). Little shake.

0:30 open valve.

0:40 up to 88g poured as above.

1:20 up to 132g poured.

2:00 up to 176g poured.

2:40 up to 220g poured (well 219g in this case, a couple of g evaporating by the time the photo was taken).

Dry bed 3:37.

179g in the cup, a little over-extracted, not dominating dryness, just enough to suggest extracting a little less next time. I'll do 5 pours of 42g for 210g total.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

2nd brew, all else the same, except 5x42g pours for 210g total. Still a little drying (I'd score it 7/9), even though the extraction was a little less (different coffee). Next brew, I'll keep the valve open throughout & see if it cleans up any.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sorry, neglected this thread, but lately been grinding a little coarser at 36 on Wilfa flat, not bothering to close the valve for the first pour, 5x42g every 40s to 210g total, cleaner cups at a slightly lower extraction.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Do you think it was more not closing the valve that decreased the extraction, or do more smaller pours extract less?

Does the can strainer make much of a difference as opposed to direct pour?

Next, how about the Melitta ceramic and then the Bartlett? Do you have a different recipe for the different number of holes?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PortafilterProcrastinator said:


> Do you think it was more not closing the valve that decreased the extraction, or do more smaller pours extract less?
> 
> Does the can strainer make much of a difference as opposed to direct pour?
> 
> Next, how about the Melitta ceramic and then the Bartlett? Do you have a different recipe for the different number of holes?


 Hard to say on extraction because I changed coffees, as well as ground a little coarser. I think the coffee sitting in the water for 40s with the valve shut was perhaps making it too easy to strip solubles from the outer layers & preventing the cup from being as clean tasting as it could but, but that's really just a hunch. (I have bloomed for longer with finer grinds and a fast single pour, I just don't think it is working as well with coarser grinds)

Can strainer seems to make for a cleaner, softer cup compared to all pours direct with kettle, probably due to less bed disturbance & silt generated. I think the Brewista flat bed is also more prone to this & I do the same with Kalita 185 - 5 pours of 42g at 32 on Wilfa flat, (all pours via strainer).

Already made some nice cups with the Melitta, 13.4 - 13.5g of coffee, Wilfa flat at 32, 5 pours of 42g, the first 2 pours direct onto the coffee, last 3 via strainer. This is also what I do with V60, but because V60 retains less liquid, I use 40 or 41g pours.

Not done enough brews with any of the brewers mentioned to suggest this a 'recommended method', but had some really good cups with the V60 02, 5x40/41g (1st 2 pours direct, last 3 via strainer) anywhere between 28 & 36 on the Wilfa.

New bag of coffee to try with the Brewista tomorrow, then after that, I'll give the Bartleet a go.

Ultimately, I'm hoping to be able to make comparable cups with all the brewers mentioned, same grind, just with slightly different water weights (but similar beverage weights) and no. of pours via the strainer.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bartleet - 2 pours direct, 3 via strainer, not a bad cup, but a shade dark/heavy. I'm aiming to knock off 0.5%EY or a little more.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Bartleet 13.8g coffee ground at 93.5 on Niche (comparable grid to 36 on my Wilfa flat), 5 pours of 42g *all* via strainer, knocked 1%EY off, clean, tasty cup, with some floral notes. Score 8/9.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

So (ignoring the strainer for a second) do more smaller pours increase extraction?

It is interesting to see how things change across drippers, but also seems helpful to be able to change extraction depending on bean. If changing grind is less preferred, then changing the number/ size of pours is easy too.

I don't understand the fundamentals well enough yet, but getting the 'best' out of each bean could mean changing brew method slightly.

I'm making lots of assumptions here but haven't got time to write them all down. Probably wouldn't make much sense either.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

At the same grind setting & brew size, yes, smaller pours increase extraction as less weight of liquid over the bed, more resistance provided by the bed. There isn't just one grind size & pour regime that works, you can grind finer for larger/faster pours. You're not aiming to continually increase extraction, just hit a good level for that brewer, with a clean cup.

Continually changing grind is feasible, but best for fine tuning, most coffees should be fine at a constant grind setting.

In this case with this coffee I found the differences I needed to make comparable good cups were:

V60 02 - 2 pours direct, 3 via strainer. 40/41g per pour (less retention in brewer)

Melitta 102 - 2 pours direct, 3 via strainer. 42g per pour (more retention in brewer)

Kalita 185 - 1 pour direct, 4 via strainer. 42g per pour.

Brewista, Bartleet - All 42g per pour, all via strainer.

EDIT: Brew #15 was today (19/9), not Feb.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Bartleet - All 42g per pour, all via strainer.


 Just had a brew failure with the Bartleet & all pours direct, so need to revise this method.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@MWJB Mark, Considering your very long experience in pour overs across the entire spectrum of brew equipments, is there a clear winner for you? If it isn't, a favourite at least.

Please detail them out with what, why and how (i.e. data points). Thx


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @MWJB Mark, Considering your very long experience in pour overs across the entire spectrum of brew equipments, is there a clear winner for you? If it isn't, a favourite at least.


 I don't have a preference. If you're dialled in, there shouldn't be one.

The issue with the Bartleet was down to what I was doing with it, pouring all pours via the strainer probably wasn't efficiently wetting the dose, so 1 brew out of 8 was a very low extraction. It was weak, but didn't taste too bad, but definitely showed that this method wasn't repeatable enough to recommend.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> I don't have a preference. If you're dialled in, there shouldn't be one.
> 
> The issue with the Bartleet was down to what I was doing with it, pouring all pours via the strainer probably wasn't efficiently wetting the dose, so 1 brew out of 8 was a very low extraction. It was weak, but didn't taste too bad, but definitely showed that this method wasn't repeatable enough to recommend.


 Interesting, you don't have a preference after years of making coffee this way. I was hoping you would bring out which one always gives a clean and a sweet cup, what makes the difference and at least a fav!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Interesting, you don't have a preference after years of making coffee this way. I was hoping you would bring out which one always gives a clean and a sweet cup, what makes the difference and at least a fav!


 Well, the ones I mention in this thread all work (the Brewista isn't being used as intended, so probably needs a little more thought to dial in, without stalling).

Really, the onus is on you to find a method that works for your brew size & grind. The brewers all make pretty much the same output in terms of preference, just negligible differences in concentration due to retention.

You can't always have sweet cups without always using sweet coffee 

To be fair, I'm kind of disappointed that I haven't found a clear winner too. I've wasted a lot of time trying. All I've managed to determine is that some (Melitta, Kalita Wave, Wilfa pour over cone, Brewista Smart Steep) are more viable with a regular kettle, opposed to a gooseneck (which can, of course, be used with any).


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@MWJB I assume you are not jokingly hinting at sugar when you state "using sweet coffee". 😀

My little, if any, knowledge has taught me that sweet coffee is some combinations of *fruity acidity, aroma, texture, smoothness and no obvious sweetness! 🙂 *

Your mention of disappointment is, IMHO, isn't implying that really. Implicit in that statement is your coffee making is so matured, you make a damn good cup consistently, irrespective of the brew method. An occasional or an infrequent miss is ok. A good cup doesn't have to be 9/9, it can even be 7/9!

We are obviously discussing a black coffee only - no milk and no sugar!

Cheers Mark!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @MWJB I assume you are not jokingly hinting at sugar when you state "using sweet coffee". 😀
> 
> My little, if any, knowledge has taught me that sweet coffee is some combinations of *fruity acidity, aroma, texture, smoothness and no obvious sweetness! 🙂 *
> 
> ...


 I never add sugar nor milk to coffee. I don't know what causes the perception of sweetness in coffee, it's not likely to be sucrose in any great amount. There are a lot of acids in coffee so this seems the most likely source?

For me a good cup averages about 7.6/9. A long run of 7/9 with occasional 6/9 would cause me to sanity check with a different bean, then look into method if results didn't improve.

So I expect majority 8/9 scores with a few 7's in there & the occasional 9/9, as most beans are not capable of this.

I look at it as unlocking the attributes in the coffee, rather than making them out of the coffee (e.g. you can't brew more sweetness into the coffee than it starts with in the bag, you can just do the best you can with what you have).


----------



## GazRef (Dec 30, 2019)

MWJB said:


> At the same grind setting & brew size, yes, smaller pours increase extraction as less weight of liquid over the bed, more resistance provided by the bed. There isn't just one grind size & pour regime that works, you can grind finer for larger/faster pours. You're not aiming to continually increase extraction, just hit a good level for that brewer, with a clean cup.
> 
> Continually changing grind is feasible, but best for fine tuning, most coffees should be fine at a constant grind setting.
> 
> ...


 Been fascinated with this strainer tech since I read this post few weeks back. Can you please do another video demoing how your pours look on a V60 going 2 direct 3 strainer ?

I recently tried using the black aeropress cap and noticed the water sat on top of the bed for much longer like the latter stages of a single pour draw down. Taste wise it did soften the usual cups. Would love to see what this looks like.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GazRef said:


> Been fascinated with this strainer tech since I read this post few weeks back. Can you please do another video demoing how your pours look on a V60 going 2 direct 3 strainer ?
> 
> I recently tried using the black aeropress cap and noticed the water sat on top of the bed for much longer like the latter stages of a single pour draw down. Taste wise it did soften the usual cups. Would love to see what this looks like.


 A video is in the pipeline, but won't be put up until this method has passed the same testing as for all my other videos (10 brews, each with a different coffee at the same grind setting). I'll check my V60 data and see if this has been achieved (I'm currently rotating brewers & grinders, so it's taking a while).


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MWJB said:


> I'll check my V60 data and see if this has been achieved (I'm currently rotating brewers & grinders, so it's taking a while).


 I have 5 brews at 32 on Wilfa flat, so I'll reset the grinder to that & make the video after the 10th, not likely to happen until early December.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

This helps?

32 on Wilfa uniform would be ~ 27.5 on comandante. April brews around the same depends on your dose too. If someone wants to try your brews check the pdf.

Таблица соотношения помолов (5).pdf


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Denis S said:


> This helps?
> 
> 32 on Wilfa uniform would be ~ 27.5 on comandante. April brews around the same depends on your dose too. If someone wants to try your brews check the pdf.
> 
> Таблица соотношения помолов (5).pdf 56.37 kB · 0 downloads


 I can't speak regarding the Commandante (you may be right), but I don't think that chart is quite right overall.

32 on the Wilfa flat is more like 89-90 on the Niche. Certainly not anywhere around the 50 mark.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Here's a couple of Kruve plots prior to fitting the NFC disk (57 on Niche with NFC gave more like13% at 400 Kruve).


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Added the v60 02 method with steel can strainer to my grind reference spreadsheet, using Niche with NFC disc, set to 94.

Grind references





  








V60 02 Can strainer.PNG




__
MWJB


__
9 mo ago


----------



## yunusemregoksu (Sep 1, 2021)

MWJB said:


> I can't speak regarding the Commandante (you may be right), but I don't think that chart is quite right overall.
> 
> 32 on the Wilfa flat is more like 89-90 on the Niche. Certainly not anywhere around the 50 mark.


Their calibration style is different, they didn't calibrate niche for pour over at calibration mark. They go back to 30 which as my calculations with second marker, corresponds to 0=28. What that means, their 50 is 50+28=78. Still different with your assumption but very close now, if that makes sense


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

They didn't calibrate the Niche for pour over...full stop. 

All my Niche references are read intuitively from "0" or added to "50" on the fascia. My comparisons in grind size between the Wilfa and the Niche aren't based on arbitrary markings on the grind scales, but backed up with extractions and grind sifting.


----------

