# UK import taxes for coffee gear post Brexit



## BobbyAxelrod (Jan 12, 2021)

Hi guys,

Would anyone know if UK import taxes for coffee gear changed after Brexit? 🤔

I imagine this would depend on the shipping country. I was looking to estimate the import tax for a JX Pro order from 1zpresso.
Some people mentioned they paid more or less 20£ to Fedex before Brexit. I am just wondering if this would be strongly affected. 😅

Thanks!

Axe

PS - I am not looking to start a debate on Brexit, I am just comparing coffee gear prices 🤑


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## Karka (Dec 20, 2020)

BobbyAxelrod said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Would anyone know if UK import taxes for coffee gear changed after Brexit? 🤔
> 
> ...


 Isn't that a Chinese company? Not sure they are based in the Eu so probably not relevant


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## BobbyAxelrod (Jan 12, 2021)

Karka said:


> Isn't that a Chinese company? Not sure they are based in the Eu so probably not relevant


 I think 1zpresso is based in Taiwan. My understanding was that, for example, UK and Taiwan could after Brexit enter into a different trade agreement than the EU-Taiwan one. I am not an expert on this though, so I might be wrong.


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## Stu Beck (May 31, 2020)

The Gov website isn't super helpful as to whether the duty has changed from outside the EU. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-overseas-goods-sold-directly-to-customers-in-the-uk

Looks like a threshold of £135, which is about what I paid for mine back in Aug. This would be dependent on exchange rates of course...

As you noted, FedEx handled the duty declaration and fee - their fee was more that the duty though!

Doubt you'll get clobbered but don't think you'll pay less duty either...


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## IaninBristol (Nov 7, 2020)

Not what you are asking but FYI I paid £18 fees on mine before Christmas but most surprising thing was speed of delivery - it was really quick and traceable with FedEx every step of the way from Taiwan. I was impressed.

Personally, just ordered a Geisinger E61 thermometer from Germany and I'm not expecting an additional set of fees just yet as I'd doubt the systems are working well enough to focus on small things like this yet given the issues with managing large scale logistics across borders right now. I could be wrong of course as I base this on nothing, however I did think it was better to order sooner rather than later to give better chance of avoiding increased costs. Just my take on it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

If they are manufactured in the EU then no, there won't be fees. Stores may charge an additional processing fee if they wish. Shipping might be more, but no additional duty or VAT charges if I understand correctly.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

I live in France and there is so much confusion about the new rules and regulations. I know a few small businesses have just removed the UK from the countries they export to. Apparently now if they ship to the uk they have to claim vat at the point of sale and then pay it directly to the uk tax office which adds a step to their process that for some makes it not worthwhile.

I'm in the process of renewing my car insurance and AXA told me they would not insure me on a British driving license. They looked into it and they can but just goes to show the confusion going around.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

My understanding is that it won't have import duty, but it will have VAT charged as it enters the country. Therefore, EU countries should remove VAT at the source and export the product as such. If they charge you VAT, then you'll end up paying VAT twice.

for example, say a coffee machine was €100 in Italy. Before this mess, we could go to an Italian website and pay €100 for it. Plus delivery costs.

now, we can do the same, but we don't know what the final price will be as it enters the UK, as you'll be charged UK VAT. What the Italian retailer in this example should do, is to remove Italian VAT at 22% - as it's an export item - and export it to the UK. So the price we pay would be €78. Then as it arrives in the UK, HMRC would charge 20% VAT at the border. As it's usually he courrier who will handle this process, it will also charge you admin fee on top.

anyway, that's how I understand it. The issue we have is that not many in the EU are ready to treat the UK as a third country (systems, paperwork, understanding rules, etc) neither is the UK to thread the EU as a third party. Truly royal bonkers shambles.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> My understanding is that it won't have import duty, but it will have VAT charged as it enters the country. Therefore, EU countries should remove VAT at the source and export the product as such. If they charge you VAT, then you'll end up paying VAT twice.
> 
> for example, say a coffee machine was €100 in Italy. Before this mess, we could go to an Italian website and pay €100 for it. Plus delivery costs.
> 
> ...


 Totally agree, it's an absolute shambles


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## BobbyAxelrod (Jan 12, 2021)

Stu Beck said:


> The Gov website isn't super helpful as to whether the duty has changed from outside the EU. https://www.gov.uk/guidance/vat-and-overseas-goods-sold-directly-to-customers-in-the-uk
> 
> Looks like a threshold of £135, which is about what I paid for mine back in Aug. This would be dependent on exchange rates of course...
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the link, I did not know about this £135 threshold, that's good to know!


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## BobbyAxelrod (Jan 12, 2021)

IaninBristol said:


> Not what you are asking but FYI I paid £18 fees on mine before Christmas but most surprising thing was speed of delivery - it was really quick and traceable with FedEx every step of the way from Taiwan. I was impressed.
> 
> Personally, just ordered a Geisinger E61 thermometer from Germany and I'm not expecting an additional set of fees just yet as I'd doubt the systems are working well enough to focus on small things like this yet given the issues with managing large scale logistics across borders right now. I could be wrong of course as I base this on nothing, however I did think it was better to order sooner rather than later to give better chance of avoiding increased costs. Just my take on it.


 Thanks for sharing your experience, I am happy to hear about the fast delivery 

You are probably right about the systems, it will take a lot of IT work to update everything.


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## BobbyAxelrod (Jan 12, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> My understanding is that it won't have import duty, but it will have VAT charged as it enters the country. Therefore, EU countries should remove VAT at the source and export the product as such. If they charge you VAT, then you'll end up paying VAT twice.
> 
> for example, say a coffee machine was €100 in Italy. Before this mess, we could go to an Italian website and pay €100 for it. Plus delivery costs.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the explanations and detailed example, that makes sense.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> for example, say a coffee machine was €100 in Italy. Before this mess, we could go to an Italian website and pay €100 for it. Plus delivery costs.
> 
> now, we can do the same, but we don't know what the final price will be as it enters the UK, as you'll be charged UK VAT. What the Italian retailer in this example should do, is to remove Italian VAT at 22% - as it's an export item - and export it to the UK. So the price we pay would be €78. Then as it arrives in the UK, HMRC would charge 20% VAT at the border. As it's usually he courrier who will handle this process, it will also charge you admin fee on top.


 I think this might be spot on on the theory (not sure anymore though). In practice, however, the Italian retailer might not remove the Italian VAT (or not bother to sell to the UK at all), the courier fee will be more than both VAT's combined (and it will probably delay delivery as well to charge the VAT and process it) etc. The consumer on each side will find it hard to know in advance what the final price will be, how long it will take and what the process will be. So the bottom line in many cases would be that the consumer will not bother unless the price difference is so big it would be worth it, or the product isn't available in their country. In other cases people will just buy locally and pay more.


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## Stu Beck (May 31, 2020)

BobbyAxelrod said:


> Thanks for the link, I did not know about this £135 threshold, that's good to know!


 It's not exactly clear, but a little bit helpful...

I'd assume that most of the focus has been updating terms with the EU so you'll probably pay the same fees as @IaninBristol 🤞

Also agree that the service and tracking was excellent and the grinder is fantastic 👍


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## 28267 (Dec 8, 2020)

Doram said:


> I think this is spot on on the theory, so the total to the customer should be the same. In practice, however, the Italian retailer might not remove the Italian VAT (or not bother to sell to the UK at all), the courier fee will be more than both VAT's combined (and it will probably delay delivery as well to charge the VAT and process it) etc. The consumer on each side will find it hard to know in advance what the final price will be, how long it will take and what the process will be. So the bottom line in many cases would be that the consumer will not bother unless the price difference is so big it would be worth it, or the product isn't available in their country. In other cases people will just buy locally and pay more.


 When we left the EU the government decided to change how things work for importing goods including from Europe.

Before Brexit you could pay VAT in either your country or the source country for physical goods in the EU. For goods outside of Europe import duties and VAT was charged when it arrived as appropriate.

Now the company selling goods to the U.K. must register with HMRC and charge U.K. VAT and then pay that direct to HMRC, we are about the only country in the world with this approach and this is why a lot of companies have stopped taking U.K. orders.

In the example above the Italian company would have to be registered with HMRC, charge U.K. VAT not Italian and pay it direct to HMRC. The paperwork would then show this when sent to the U.K. if that paperwork is wrong potentially the goods get returned, it has been causing couriers lots of issues.

On top of the above there is still the possibility of import duty on some items which is still collected on arrival.

From U.K. to EU the rules are different, VAT is charged on arrival into the EU.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Doram said:


> I think this is spot on on the theory, so the total to the customer should be the same. In practice, however, the Italian retailer might not remove the Italian VAT (or not bother to sell to the UK at all), the courier fee will be more than both VAT's combined (and it will probably delay delivery as well to charge the VAT and process it) etc. The consumer on each side will find it hard to know in advance what the final price will be, how long it will take and what the process will be. So the bottom line in many cases would be that the consumer will not bother unless the price difference is so big it would be worth it, or the product isn't available in their country. In other cases people will just buy locally and pay more.


 For larger items I'm sure couriers like UPS and Parcelforce will have systems in place. It's a bigger issue for companies who use the post office to send things to the uk.

edited to remove irrelevant stuff


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

AdG said:


> Now the company selling goods to the U.K. must register with HMRC and charge U.K. VAT and then pay that direct to HMRC, we are about the only country in the world with this approach and this is why a lot of companies have stopped taking U.K. orders


 Yep. This is what I understand too. Completely silly approach. Imagine if every country in the world had this approach? Crazy. Why would the small retailer from Italy or wherever want to register with HMRC in order to export? If I was a small company, I wouldn't bother - there's a whole world out there! - unless I had significant market from the UK. Shambles. Utter madness. Anyway, I better stop short here as my blood is already boiling. 😔🤐

removed bbc link


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

vat is collected and paid to HMRC by the seller in the UK, not the manufacturing company abroad


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## ken0062 (May 19, 2017)

Ok here is a question, lets say I bought a item from the likes of aliexpress or similar for say £50, according to the rules here it is the online marketplaces responsibility for charging the VAT, so does that mean royal mail no longer have the responsibility of passing the items to customs for the VAT additions and charging you the extra £8 for the privilege of doing so, also what is likely to happen if aliexpress do not addd the vat in the first place.


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## ken0062 (May 19, 2017)

Just answered my own question there, it appears aliexpress are now adding the vat at checkout so looks like we no longer get the £8 royal mail custom fee, have also found out the no vat £15 limit has been abolished so better for anything above £15 and worse for anything less, this has also been applied in the EU as well


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## Dave_E (Jun 13, 2013)

The differing VAT rates across the EU and UK is not related to recent politics.

Even a decade ago when I was working in Luxembourg, if I ordered items from Amazon UK, and had them delivered to the Luxembourg office rather than my UK address the price often dropped at check-out due to Luxembourg having a lower applicable VAT rate.

I think this was mainly for items "delivered by and sold by" Amazon.

Thank goodness I was not using a German address, the TVA there was higher than the UK VAT. 😆

My understanding is that VAT should be charged at the place (country) the goods are supplied to.


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

This, https://www.icaew.com/brexit/uk-vat-after-the-transition-period, seems to suggest that if the goods are sold through an online marketplace, such as AliExpress, then they become responsible for VAT as described by Ken0062's link. However, for a vendor who sells directly, they would have to register with HMRC as described by the BBC article. So, I would imagine that a company with few sales to the UK may not choose to bother to set up a link with HMRC and the goods will no longer be available, but if they have a large enough established market already in the UK, it may be in their financial interest to do so. Also, if the sell through an online marketplace, then things should work fine.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

earthflattener said:


> Also, if the sell through an online marketplace, then things should work fine.


 Quite. But a market place will take its cut, so both parties (retailer and consumer) lose in the end. 😔 - middleman (person) wins.

take an example: lamachinnadelcafe and bluestarcoffee. Presumably the latter will register with VAT in the UK as it's in Ireland and the UK is a big market. As for the former, it might no longer be a feasible option for us in the UK. Time will tell I suppose.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you buy goods in China, they have 4 levels at which vat can be charged. Any vat collected by Aliexpress or the like remains in China. An export declaration is attached to the item declaring the value and if vat is to be collected on arrival in the UK, then it is and the customer pays it. VAT is a sales tax


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## JackHK (Aug 26, 2017)

Sales tax 😉

try change the country in elektros.it shop, thats how you do it right 🥳

BEZZERA Coffee machine MATRIX TOP MN
Price for Norway (outside eu (VAT Excluded)) https://www.elektros.it/no/en/matrix_top_mn.html 
Price for Germany (inside EU (VAT Included)) https://www.elektros.it/de/en/coffee_machines/matrix_top_mn.html

irrelevant stuff removed


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

In order for you to pay no VAT on a purchase made abroad, you have to qualify it. For example, at Elektros I buy something bound for the UK. In the UK, I am VAT registered, so I give Elektros my VAT number and after checking, they deduct the VAT from the purchase and then VAT is charged by the UK when it comes into the country. It is still not clear how it works for individuals who are not VAT registered. In the case of the Norwegian buyer, he still pays VAT......to Norway


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

That's my understanding. EU, with regards to VAT, is no different to any third country. So in this aspect, all is consistent. However, EU buyer was paying X for the grinder including VAT. Brexit happened, and now they see an approximate 20% increase on prices due to extra VAT charged by the country where the EU buyer lives. The EU buyer most likely think it's unfair that, on the 30th of December 2020, he/she was paying X, and, on the 1st of Jan 2021, he is now paying X plus VAT, because the UK buyer still pays X for it including VAT. And we all know the reason, and that's because Niche is now treating the EU as a third country like any other, and is not making the exception to remove UK VAT from the price for EU purchases (same approach to sales to USA, Canada, Etc). If they did that, then the final price to the EU customer would be therefore roughly the same as the UK as EU countries have a similar VAT rate.

Niche stuff removed


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## JackHK (Aug 26, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> In order for you to pay no VAT on a purchase made abroad, you have to qualify it. For example, at Elektros I buy something bound for the UK. In the UK, I am VAT registered, so I give Elektros my VAT number and after checking, they deduct the VAT from the purchase and then VAT is charged by the UK when it comes into the country. It is still not clear how it works for individuals who are not VAT registered. In the case of the Norwegian buyer, he still pays VAT......to Norway


 Yes yes I know, it was the rules until 31 December 2020, now the UK is completely out in the EU and out of the VAT. cooperation that was valid until 31 December 2020.

So now all UK orders from UK is with no VAT, and you will pay the VAT to your own country when you import, if you have VAT number you dont need to pay (I think also in UK) but if you are private you need to pay, thats why you dont pay Vat to Italy when you are overseas customer, exatly like Norway, Hong Kong, USA ordre is from the EU, will EU company not charge the EU VAT for overseas customers


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

JackHK said:


> Yes yes I know, it was the rules until 31 December 2020, now the UK is completely out in the EU and out of the VAT. cooperation that was valid until 31 December 2020.
> 
> So now all UK orders from UK is with no VAT, and you will pay the VAT to your own country when you import, if you have VAT number you dont need to pay (I think also in UK) but if you are private you need to pay, thats why you dont pay Vat to Italy when you are overseas customer, exatly like Norway, Hong Kong, USA ordre is from the EU, will EU company not charge the EU VAT for overseas customers


Yes but those from EU who bought it and paid it before 31st of December? the price includes the VAT? Because if it did then now for example in Spain they have to pay the Spanish VAT so in the end they pay 2 VAT? Let alone the customs taxes etc...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Wow, this thread turned into a bag of crap fairly rapidly. I have just spent a while removing all the irrelevant comments on the 3 areas concerned.

This thread should be about import taxes for coffee gear..not about:



The BBC


Jim davidson


Niche Coffee


I let it run for a little but I turn my back and it's gone of the rails. I'm cleaning it up to what I think is relevant. Simply because *I am actually interested in UK import taxes for coffee gear..So lets keep it useful!*

P.S. This is one of those rare occasions when I may be tempted to break a personal rule. That rule is I don't edit posts (although I will remove quotes), I either hide them or leave them. In this instance rather than hide a post with useful information and crap in it, I may edit them to remove the crap instead of removing them. If you don't like the fact I've done that...just pm me and I will happily remove the edited post completely.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

ive used my special bronze powers to ignore this thread, does it only show if im tagged @DavecUK


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Cuprajake I have cleaned it up.


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## Turnado (Nov 6, 2020)

As of 1st January 2021, we left EU and now trade as 'rest of world'. Think of buying from Spain or Germany as you would have bought from Asia or USA. 
I looked at importing a roaster from Austria. The supplier declined my order because they didn't know how to do RoW trading. I looked into this: the tariff on Gov.UK website for roasting equipment is 2.7% and then VAT on top at 20% would soon start adding up on a Eur2500 roaster.

Hope that helps.


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## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

Turnado said:


> I looked into this: the tariff on Gov.UK website for roasting equipment is 2.7% and then VAT on top at 20% would soon start adding up on a Eur2500 roaster.


 The cost doesn't end there - you usually have to pay a charge to the courier for paying those charges on your behalf and they will not deliver the item to you until their charges are paid.


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

Turnado said:


> As of 1st January 2021, we left EU and now trade as 'rest of world'. Think of buying from Spain or Germany as you would have bought from Asia or USA.
> I looked at importing a roaster from Austria. The supplier declined my order because they didn't know how to do RoW trading. I looked into this: the tariff on Gov.UK website for roasting equipment is 2.7% and then VAT on top at 20% would soon start adding up on a Eur2500 roaster.
> 
> Hope that helps.


 I think that misses the essential point that the exporter from Europe does not have to pay VAT in their own country when exporting, so that there is no double VAT. We probably have to pay the import tariff of 2.7%. However, the UK government have insisted that a direct exporter registers with the HMRC in this country to pay VAT directly, which some may choose not to do because of the increased bureaucracy. So, it should not cost much more but a) maybe not so much will be available or b) some companies might take the opportunity to increase the price of their product.

There was a second, but independent, discussion about a grinder, but the issue there ultimately seem to have nothing to do with VAT or taxes.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

earthflattener said:


> We probably have to pay the import tariff of 2.7%.


 Do we have to pay such tariffs even if comes from the EU? Didn't the deal remove those?


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## Geezercdg (Dec 29, 2018)

It was the grinder which I wanted to buy in the first place. (New Eureka XL) Interestingly I looked into buying said grinder from Doppio coffee in London and they offered to waive the carraige charge if I paid by bank transfer!

I didn't.


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Do we have to pay such tariffs even if comes from the EU? Didn't the deal remove those?


 You are probably right...I didn't check this. I could live with 2.7%, less so with 22.7%.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Do we have to pay such tariffs even if comes from the EU? Didn't the deal remove those?


 I'm assuming it's just VAT? It's confusing though as the stuff I would imagine would come from the EU without VAT?


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## jjstorgaard (Jan 19, 2019)

I was researching this right after the trade deal with the EU had announced and most websites hadn't been updated yet.

I found this Irish website that explains it quite well. There won't be tariffs, but the idea is that European shops won't charge vat, which we'll then pay in the UK instead. We'll have to wait and see if the European (and British) shops actually do start following it.

JJ


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## sjm85 (Sep 9, 2016)

It's taken bloody ages to find it, but I recon if the value is over £135 then you'll get walloped with 20% VAT that you will personally have to pay when you import a "coffee maker" from the EU.

https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/8516710000



> *
> Import
> *
> 
> ...


 I guess maybe the EU retailer should remove any local taxes but imagine they might not do that.

If it's less than £135, then it's up to the EU retailer to collect the tax, but I think I was reading that some retailers of small items have just refused to post to UK as they can't be bothered to sort it out. One sympathises. I shall refrain from any further 'brexit' commentary.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-55530721


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I looked at this document and it seems to confirm my understanding, although I am not sure all EU retailers will have their systems in place to deal with the rules and there may be some other things they have to do.

My understanding is:

There is a 3rd country Duty of 2%, but applied in the absence of any other agreement. We have an agreement with the EU not to add this duty on products that meet the rules of origin. The trade and cooperation agreement makes this point in the preamble on page 20, of it's ridiculous 1499 pages.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=uriserv%3AOJ.L_.2020.444.01.0014.01.ENG

As far as vat goes there is the EU Commissions guidance, which states that after 1 jan 2021 the EU exporter would follow certain processes and VAT would not be charged on goods and that the VAT would be paid in the UK by whoever is purchasing. In the same way as if you purchased good from outside the EU before we left. So EU companies should be charging for goods ex VAT.

https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/vat-goods_en.pdf

I can imagine that the processes are not well embedded at the moment and there are probably difficulties in getting the various systems to work. I would imagine this would be sorted out fairly rapidly.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Just placed an order for a dosing funnel on AliExpress. VAT was added on the checkout page and I paid it (see pop up explanation message below).

Not from the EU, so supposedly unrelated to Brexit, but the change was made at the same time (31/12). Not a speculation anymore - it happened:


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Doram Yes, the above is correct and what is probably currently causing problems for EU retailers systems/processes. Those systems and processes are all designed to either charge VAT or not charge it. Now for values less than 135, they have to charge whatever the UK rate of VAT is or becomes and pay HMRC.

I suspect if that little bit hadn't been in there and a process to be followed to register, then we would have any issues at all. If AliExpress have managed to do it though, one can't imagine the EU retailers will be far behind. It's also why all the European websites I checked either won't ship to the UK, show no products, or show products as out of stock...when you select UK, but that will change and soon I would imagine.

I think we also lost the £18.99 small item VAT exemption now as well.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I suspect if that little bit hadn't been in there and a process to be followed to register, then we would have any issues at all. If AliExpress have managed to do it though, one can't imagine the EU retailers will be far behind. It's also why all the European websites I checked either won't ship to the UK, show no products, or show products as out of stock...when you select UK, but that will change and soon I would imagine.


 Yep. For AliExpress this means an instant 20% increase in the price for UK buyers. No reason to think it won't be the same with most small things we buy from outside the UK.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

OK. Could some please explain this to me, in simple terms:

- What should happen if I buy a tamper which cost less than £135 from a shop in the the EU? Say it costs £100 - How much will I pay by the time it gets to me?
- What should happen if I buy a coffee machine which cost more than £135 from a shop in the EU? Say it cost £1000 - How much will I pay by the time it gets to me?


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## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> OK. Could some please explain this to me, in simple terms:
> - What should happen if I buy a tamper which cost less than £135 from a shop in the the EU? Say it costs £100 - How much will I pay by the time it gets to me?
> - What should happen if I buy a coffee machine which cost more than £135 from a shop in the EU? Say it cost £1000 - How much will I pay by the time it gets to me?


God knows


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## Chainlinephil (Apr 5, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> OK. Could some please explain this to me, in simple terms:
> 
> - What should happen if I buy a tamper which cost less than £135 from a shop in the the EU? Say it costs £100 - How much will I pay by the time it gets to me?
> - What should happen if I buy a coffee machine which cost more than £135 from a shop in the EU? Say it cost £1000 - How much will I pay by the time it gets to me?


 IF £100 is ex vat price in the country of origin then I understood that the thresholds have been removed for VAT. So you should pay £100 + VAT of 20% on delivery, , that is now collected at point of sale, below £135 threshold, and paid to UK HMRC directly by the online market place or seller.

Same process for the coffee machine.

Should be no duty/tarifs on the goods.

I ordered a grinder from Germany before Brexit. I am VAT registered so vat was deducted at source on my invoice. Previously I would then have paid no further costs due the the VAT agreements.

As the grinder is only now shipping, even though I paid before Brexit, I will almost certainly be charged VAT and then have to reclaim it. I applied for an EORI number and I hope the system works and it will be a virtual transaction where no money moves it gets logged but netted off ,but I confess I'm flying a bit blind. I may end up paying and reclaiming!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Chainlinephil said:


> IF £100 is ex vat price in the country of origin then I understood that the thresholds have been removed for VAT. So you should pay £100 + VAT of 20% on delivery, , that is collected by the courier who will also charge a handling fee for collecting that (£8 - £10)
> 
> Same process for the coffee machine, fee from courier is not value related but process so should be similar but fee is carrier specific.
> 
> ...


 So what's the threshold for? What does the seller or myself have to do differently when buying something for £100 if compared to something for £1000?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

.57



MediumRoastSteam said:


> OK. Could some please explain this to me, in simple terms:
> 
> 1. - What should happen if I buy a tamper which cost less than £135 from a shop in the the EU? Say it costs £100 - How much will I pay by the time it gets to me?
> - What should happen if I buy a coffee machine which cost more than £135 from a shop in the EU? Say it cost £1000 - How much will I pay by the time it gets to me?


 If the cost is less than £135 including EU VAT (for that country) and UK Vat remains at 20%.... then you pay the cost you see minus or plus the difference in the VAT rate compared to our country. So if a European store displays the product price inc VAT, it depends on the country. e.g. For the same item assuming the same ex vat price of 111.57.

£111.57 +23.43 spanish VAT @21% = in Spain it would cost £135

£111.57 +24.55 Italian VAT @22% = in Italy it would cost £136.12

£111.57 +21.20 german VAT @19% = in Germany it would cost £132.77

*After Spanish, Italian or German company applying UK VAT of 20% and paying it back to HMRC= 112.5 + 22.32 = £133.89 (your cost in UK in all cases)*

For a coffee machine of £1000 inc VAT, it will be devatted at the countries prevailing rate and *then you pay 20% UK VAT on the ex VAT amount.*

If you buy from different countries, *if the machine is the same inc VAT price at their local VAT rate*:

£1000 Spanish VAT @21% = 826.45 ex VAT

£1000 Italian VAT @22% = £819.56 ex VAT

£1000 German VAT @19% = £840.34 ex VAT

In the above case the machine would be cheaper from Italy, because they had the highest local VAT rate and most expensive from germany who had the lowest local VAT rate

It's all quite clear really


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Chainlinephil said:


> IF £100 is ex vat price in the country of origin then I understood that the thresholds have been removed for VAT. So you should pay £100 + VAT of 20% on delivery, , that is collected by the courier who will also charge a handling fee for collecting that (£8 - £10)


 There may not be courier charges, this can actually be avoided and probably will be. e.g. you have always been able to buy from Amazon who pay the prevailing TAXs for you, I am pretty sure similar mechanisms will come into force when ordering from Europe. So there should be a mechanism to "prepay the UK TAX".

It's probably all this which means the systems have not been worked through yet....give it a few more weeks.


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## Chainlinephil (Apr 5, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> So what's the threshold for? What does the seller or myself have to do differently when buying something for £100 if compared to something for £1000?


 From UK Gov. below. Essentially the threshold aligns with customs duty threshold. up to that point VAT/paid at point of sale not point of importation.

The difference between £100 and £1000 is duty may be payable and VAT payable will be payable at point of importation, I think thats where courier comes in and/or held in customs until paid.

*
Outline of the changes
*

For imports of goods from outside the UK in consignments not exceeding £135 in value (which aligns with the threshold for customs duty liability), we will be moving the point at which VAT is collected from the point of importation to the point of sale. This will mean that UK supply VAT, rather than import VAT, will be due on these consignments.

The new arrangements will also involve the abolition of Low Value Consignment Relief, which relieves import VAT on consignments of goods valued at £15 or less.

Online marketplaces (OMPs), where they are involved in facilitating the sale, will be responsible for collecting and accounting for the VAT.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> .57
> 
> If the cost is less than £135 including EU VAT (for that country) and UK Vat remains at 20%.... then you pay the cost you see minus or plus the difference in the VAT rate compared to our country. So if a European store displays the product price inc VAT, it depends on the country. e.g. For the same item assuming the same ex vat price of 111.57.
> 
> ...


 Thanks. That makes sense. I just don't get why treat a £135 item different from the rest. Why would an Italian business who sells tampers for example, bother to register with HMRC unless the UK is a significant share of their business? It might be that the process to register with HMRC is simple, multilingual process for someone totally alien to it. But I doubt that's the case.


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## 28267 (Dec 8, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> So what's the threshold for? What does the seller or myself have to do differently when buying something for £100 if compared to something for £1000?


 The threshold controls where in theory the U.K. VAT is charged.

Below £135 before VAT then the seller, regardless of where they are in the world, is supposed to be registered with HMRC and pay U.K. vat on your behalf. There should then be no charges as it comes into the U.K. (that is the theory and all paperwork needs to be correct to show that).

Above £135 before VAT then the old system where VAT and import duties is charged on arrival into the U.K. applies and then FedEx or similar add their outrageous charges on top for handling it for you!

The first bit was introduced at the same time as Brexit happens but applies to any import worldwide not just the EU, this is the bit a lot of overseas retailers are unhappy about, they have to pay to register and then sort out payments to HMRC.


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## Chainlinephil (Apr 5, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> There may not be courier charges, this can actually be avoided and probably will be. e.g. you have always been able to buy from Amazon who pay the prevailing TAXs for you, I am pretty sure similar mechanisms will come into force when ordering from Europe. So there should be a mechanism to "prepay the UK TAX".
> 
> It's probably all this which means the systems have not been worked through yet....give it a few more weeks.


 I corrected my post Dave. below £135 I think thats right. Mechanisms may be introduced I agree. But duty/tax will still be 'due' at the point of importation however it gets discharged. Below £135 at point of sale.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Chainlinephil said:


> I corrected my post Dave. below £135 I think thats right. Mechanisms may be introduced I agree. But duty/tax will still be 'due' at the point of importation however it gets discharged. Below £135 at point of sale.


 I think even above that, prepayment mechanisms will be used. Easier for you, easier for HMRC, easier for courier firms.


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## Chainlinephil (Apr 5, 2020)

and yes what AdG said. Thats why many are refusing to ship to us now.

I think EU will introduce something similar to stop undervaluing of imports or 'paper' companies in the target country to avoid taxes and lift profits, I gather its a big problem, UK has used Brexit to advance the requirement. In EU likely only to apply to 3rd countries


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## 28267 (Dec 8, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Thanks. That makes sense. I just don't get why treat a £135 item different from the rest. Why would an Italian business who sells tampers for example, bother to register with HMRC unless the UK is a significant share of their business? It might be that the process to register with HMRC is simple, multilingual process for someone totally alien to it. But I doubt that's the case.


 I don't think anyone but the U.K. government think it is a sensible well thought out idea.

They abolished the old limit (£30?) before tax was applied on imports as part of this and I suspect this they see this as a way of making collecting lots of small amounts of VAT on large volumes of small items someone else's problem!

If overseas retailers don't sign up what happens? Goods get returned to them at our border or we get charged by courier?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Thanks. That makes sense. I just don't get why treat a £135 item different from the rest. Why would an Italian business who sells tampers for example, bother to register with HMRC unless the UK is a significant share of their business? It might be that the process to register with HMRC is simple, multilingual process for someone totally alien to it. But I doubt that's the case.


 Because some minions at HMRC thought it would be a good idea, when in reality it simply adds more complexity. it would have been better to set a VAT exemption at say £30, where £30 and below you pay no VAT, you just get the ex VAT price worldwide. Above £30 and you pay VAT. Would have been far simpler, and no funny registrations required. Effectively an extension of the old £18.99 exemption.

Trouble is these people like creating work for themselves and others.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Because some minions at HMRC thought it would be a good idea, when in reality it simply adds more complexity.


 OK. So it's not only me who thinks this is total nonsense then. That's good news. 😂


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> OK. So it's not only me who thinks this is total nonsense then. That's good news. 😂


 Well it's like lots of things the Civil service do...looks good on paper, doesn't always work in reality.

Like the time they fined me for having no road tax on an electric car which doesn't need road tax. It was the time of the rule change of vehicle tax. I wasn't even aware that I had to dry hump the DVLA system to apply to pay £0.


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## Flamingo (Sep 11, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> .57
> 
> If the cost is less than £135 including EU VAT (for that country) and UK Vat remains at 20%.... then you pay the cost you see minus or plus the difference in the VAT rate compared to our country. So if a European store displays the product price inc VAT, it depends on the country. e.g. For the same item assuming the same ex vat price of 111.57.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the summary @DavecUK.

Following up with the £1,000 coffee machine example, we would pay the ex VAT price to the overseas retailer and 20% of the value to the HMRC right at the time of delivery?

Would any further import duties or tariffs apply?

Sound like courier charges / admin fees might also be liable


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There should be no import duties, but at the moment couriers are making charges, due to processing and VAT collection.

I would imagine when everyone gets their act together, there should be a prepay option and electronic auto clearance, sou couriers don't have to make extra charges.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Flamingo - Did you check with the retailer whether they are shipping to the UK? A lot of them are not bothering due to the increase in bureaucracy.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Flamingo - Did you check with the retailer whether they are shipping to the UK? A lot of them are not bothering due to the increase in bureaucracy.


 Proof please .........


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Proof please .........


 I'm not talking about coffee retailers specifically. There was an example in the news the other day about a Belgian chocolate retailer, for instance, saying that she wouldn't bother posting to the UK due to increased burden. It's just a good idea to check things before committing to avoid any surprises, that's all.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

There are examples in the news of many many things, but are they any more than a reflection of the point the editor wants to put over? I do not see exports or imports grinding to a halt. Yes, there are some 'ham sandwich' stories and without a doubt some customs officials are being difficult but ........retailers only make money by selling.......will BMW, Audi, VW etc stop sending us cars because there is additional paperwork? How do we know that the Belgian choclotale story has any foundation at all?


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## Flamingo (Sep 11, 2019)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @Flamingo - Did you check with the retailer whether they are shipping to the UK? A lot of them are not bothering due to the increase in bureaucracy.


 Not yet. As long as they are ok with selling equipment ex VAT it should be fine I think...

Will keep you posted.



DavecUK said:


> There should be no import duties, but at the moment couriers are making charges, due to processing and VAT collection.
> 
> I would imagine when everyone gets their act together, there should be a prepay option and electronic auto clearance, sou couriers don't have to make extra charges.


 Thanks Dave!


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Big importers won't be affected really, as they'll have mechanisms in place to deal with it. It's the little guy who will struggle.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Right, apologies in advance as I'm thick as feck.

From these pages I gathered that upon buying from an EU website an item that costs more than £135 ex VAT, then VAT will be collected by HMRC.

Earlier today, however, I went on a website selling coffee equipment, called coffeedesk.com. I chatted with a lovely lady about purchasing a coffee machine (which is roundabout 400 EUR) from there. She told me that they charge prices including local VAT as they are mandated by law to do so.

If I buy from that website and I pay full VAT, will I be then dry humped by HMRC? What should I do, avoid that website and potentially find others that charge ex VAT?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Baffo if they charge you local VAT, which they should actually not do....then the HMRC will collect the UK VAT due, as they don't get a penny of the local VAT. Also, currently, because the Civil service have not yet thought this one through, your couriers will have to clear the package through customs and collect the UK VAT for HMRC and they charge you for the privilege, probably as much as they can get away with e.g. £30 or |£40 on top....so expect to pay £465 gbp all in.

It's not worth buying direct from Europe at the moment until the various retailers, local tax authorities and HMRC get their brains in gear. Once the goods stop flowing then they will put in an electronic tax prepay system....at the moment it's a combination of ignorance, stupidity and brinkmanship on both sides. There is absolutely no reason at all that this complete clustfe*k needs to continue, goods could, and should move freely both ways with electronic prepayment to the countries various VAT systems.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Baffo if they charge you local VAT, which they should actually not do....then the HMRC will collect the UK VAT due, as they don't get a penny of the local VAT. Also, currently, because the Civil service have not yet thought this one through, your couriers will have to clear the package through customs and collect the UK VAT for HMRC and they charge you for the privilege, probably as much as they can get away with e.g. £30 or |£40 on top....so expect to pay £465 gbp all in.
> 
> It's not worth buying direct from Europe at the moment until the various retailers, local tax authorities and HMRC get their brains in gear. Once the goods stop flowing then they will put in an electronic tax prepay system....at the moment it's a combination of ignorance, stupidity and brinkmanship on both sides. There is absolutely no reason at all that this complete clustfe*k needs to continue, goods could, and should move freely both ways with electronic prepayment to the countries various VAT systems.


 Thanks Dave. Is there any ETA on when the bunch of "special people" who are responsible/in charge will get this fixed?

I suppose I will brew V60 or moka for a while, between crazy UK MSRP's, crazy UK second-hand prices, getting an espresso machine is hardly a good move for the "money conscious" person.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

There was an article / piece on radio 4 at lunch time regarding this and other items such as parcels

They did mention bands eg £45. , £150 + 1 other. It all sounded quite confused but NOT good.

Not only could you be caught for VAT but also an import tax ?

I think it could be quite a time before this is sorted out. and then NOT to our advantage. :yuk:


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## AliG (Aug 12, 2015)

allikat said:


> Big importers won't be affected really, as they'll have mechanisms in place to deal with it. It's the little guy who will struggle.


 Agreed - I imagine the cost will either be absorbed or passed on to UK consumers. I don't see the case for jumping through hoops to sell to us if you're a small EU retailer that doesn't have a significant UK customer base.

I'm a pessimist when it comes to this particular mess, but I don't see things changing in the near term. I'm certainly not buying things direct from the continent these days. It's a shame.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Didn't you all expect this?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

L&R said:


> Didn't you all expect this?


 No, it takes a special kind of stupid in HMRC and the Civil service to achieve this. There is absolutely no reason for it to be like this. I will stick my neck out and say, they *will* eventually sort it out, but it could be some months.


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## AliG (Aug 12, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> No, it takes a special kind of stupid in HMRC and the Civil service to achieve this. There is absolutely no reason for it to be like this. I will stick my neck out and say, they *will* eventually sort it out, but it could be some months.


 I don't want to break the rules, so I'll just say that I think you're being a bit harsh on the old Civil Service and Revenue.


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## AliG (Aug 12, 2015)

Hope you're right though


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

I miss my shopping from UK too, for instance coffeehit and good roasters send me nice offers that I can't benefit from.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

L&R said:


> I miss my shopping from UK too, for instance coffeehit and good roasters send me nice offers that I can't benefit from.


 Likewise I heard a few people who used to order from "The Barn" in Berlin - They are no longer shipping to the UK. I do hope there's some sort of simplification along the way which permits to business carrying on trading more easily.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

I even bough and sold many good coffee stuff in the forum, but now DPD that I used to use for shipping doesnt accept UK orders. I feel 20 years back in time honestly.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

AliG said:


> I don't want to break the rules, so I'll just say that I think you're being a bit harsh on the old Civil Service and Revenue.


 Probably, but it's hard to see who else to blame?


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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

On eBay I was fine with products from Europe but got caught out once by something from US where the seller (a business) decided to add to the shipping costs after the sale was made, not even an apology, and that was the last time that I purchased from USA because I want to KNOW the cost not guess. For us in the UK at the moment, it seems difficult to KNOW what the cost will be for EU-baed items, because those businesses there aren't used to this (perhaps abroad statement , perhaps some are used to it for other non-EU sales) so could easily make mistakes, and then things like the courier's fees will depend on which courier the seller uses. Let alone the hassle (little red card / letter from Royal mail, trip to posts office, email from courier which immediately looks like spam email, etc)

It's now very different for eBay with their shipping programme which can be used by sellers, and Amazon for their global programme which I think is just for them as the retailer. I even placed an order for parts from the EU for a couple of projects, not needing the parts yet but wanting to avoid the post-2020 situation that was then unknown.

So, for me, until we get that sort of infrastructure in place, it will be UK-based items unless I'm desperate.


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> Probably, but it's hard to see who else to blame?


 🥫🪱🪱🪱🪱...... 😉


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think it will get sorted out either by governments dealing with it...or it will simply go onto Amazons Global program, something well geared up to handle this.


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## J_Fo (Dec 24, 2017)

I've found it really hard to get simple, clear info re changes to importing goods from Europe since we left the union.

The info about vat on this thread has been some of the clearest I've found but I've still been confused re import duties, etc.

Just read this on the BBC which makes sense of the extra charges I've been hearing about, thought it might be of interest to those who have found it confusing too. 👍

"Customers in the UK have found themselves facing extra charges when buying online from EU sellers.

The main one is VAT or sales tax. Before Brexit, you would have paid VAT at the rate charged by the country you bought your item from, and it would have been applied at the point of purchase - as a customer, the price you saw would be the price you paid.

Also, many smaller companies or individuals were too small to charge VAT.

Since Brexit, UK VAT applies to all purchases from the EU. Larger retailers will apply this at the point of purchase for anything cheaper than £135, and shoppers mostly won't notice the difference, as rates are similar and they are charged VAT already.

The bigger change is that smaller sellers (who are too small to charge local VAT) now have UK VAT charged automatically by the online marketplaces they use, which is why some people have been seeing a 20% jump in their purchase prices when selecting the UK as the destination.

For anything over £135 you will have to pay the VAT when your item reaches you.

Also over £135 (except alcohol, tobacco and perfume, for which you don't get the £135 allowance) you may be charged customs duty of up to 25% if all or a large part of the product has been made outside the EU.

Some online retailers started charging extra to cover the paperwork involved, and some stopped selling to UK customers altogether."

The whole article is here and covers other changes as well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/55831263


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## Flamingo (Sep 11, 2019)

Wanted to buy equipment from an overseas supplier (lamacchinadelcaffe) and they refuse to exclude the VAT because they don't understand the new rules...

As a result, will be buying locally at a higher price 🤷


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Flamingo said:


> Wanted to buy equipment from an overseas supplier (lamacchinadelcaffe) and they refuse to exclude the VAT because they don't understand the new rules...
> 
> As a result, will be buying locally at a higher price 🤷


 Well you will be supporting a UK business and in these difficult times may help lessen the sting of the higher price.


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## Flamingo (Sep 11, 2019)

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to support local businesses.

But the pro-free-market in me is really annoyed that this new regime is limiting options for consumers and creating inefficiencies...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Flamingo said:


> Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to support local businesses.
> 
> But the pro-free-market in me is really annoyed that this new regime is limiting options for consumers and creating inefficiencies...


 No point getting annoyed, it is what it is...probably all get sorted out in a few months.


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