# Vesuvius B0001.....& Upwards



## ronsil

Lets get the irritants out of the way.

Probably because I 'm the first with the Machine & it was pushed through for me there is no User Guide/Manual. Only thing available apart from Bella Barista's Closer Look is a rather scrappy set of explanatory instructions in irregular English. A 'cheat sheet' type of explanation at least to get you installed would be invaluable.

I was told it had six adjustable feet, it came with four. I was just about to notify BB of the shortage when Davec told me there had been a change in the spec.

With the Machine came a beautiful thick ply fitted box. Very well made & obviously expensive. It held all the bits & pieces PFs, tamper spares etc. I question why was it needed?. Once unpacked the box is empty maybe good for some other use but you would never probably use it again unless you sold the Machine. A plastic/thick cardboard box would have been more than ample. The outer reusable packing case is excellent best I've ever seen.

















Advance preparation prior to moving the Vesuvius into position.

  










In position & ready to set up.





































I set a simple lever type profile just to get started & see what would happen.

Using my own blend of Monsooned Malabar & Brazil Ipanema Gourmet Pulped Natural from Coffee Compass I used 20g beans ground at 2.1 on the EK (Irish Dial) into a 20g VST. Did not weigh the output, that's all happening tomorrow, just wanted to see what came out of the Machine.

I was so stunned by the espresso I stood in disbelief. I had got so used & enjoyed the EK type of espresso but here now in an instant, first drink out without any special prep I was drinking sheer nectar. All the smoothness, sweetness & depth of the EK grind but now I am also getting the great mouthfeel & lingering taste of the original pre EK shots.

If this is the first shot out with no great care being taken, where do we go from here?.

Been up most of last night so very tired but can't wait till tomorrow to resume with proper tests & set up my profiles.

Don't usually drink much coffee in the evening but just had to try a cappa. Unbelievable steam producing the most silky micro foam ever.

More tomorrow night........


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## The Systemic Kid

Great. Look forward to hearing more.


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## Xpenno

Yay, glad you like it Ron







Always a bit of a risk not getting to try before you buy but it sounds like it's paid off.


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## Soll

Good initial thoughts Ron, it can only get better from here


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## coffeechap

You see the lever lure got you in the end Ron!! The best shot I have had out of mine has been on a lever profile, I bet you are thankful of the constant pour now instead of the usual EK explosion, this machine has loads of control and has impressed me enough to get rid of one of the l1s


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## Obnic

Ron, looks brilliant. Can you let me know the specification for the plumbing connection please - need to get this all in place at home.


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## Neill

Looks great too. I wasn't sure when I first saw pics but I think it looks great in a kitchen.


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## jeebsy

Looks great in place - agreed. Sounds like you're on to a winner!


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## ronsil

coffeechap said:


> You see the lever lure got you in the end Ron!!


i just wanted to start with something simple out of the Machine & there's nothing simpler than pull a lever:secret:


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## DavidBondy

Thanks Ron. Very interesting. I do like those handles. Very classy looking. How does it compare for size (footprint) with other machines that you've owned?

For the avoidance of doubt, I have no plans to change my GS/3!!


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## Xpenno

DavidBondy said:


> For the avoidance of doubt, I have no plans to change my GS/3!!


I think he doth protest too much.... JK


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## ronsil

Its deeper than most. I had to have an ali checkered plate cut to take the extra depth. Never thought I'd be changing the La Spaz when we did the kitchen in January, Catered for the EK though with the lower counter.


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## Mrboots2u

Keep us up to date Ron

Looking forward to more caffeine fuelled posts

What other pre sets do you have loaded ?


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## ronsil

Obnic said:


> Can you let me know the specification for the plumbing connection please


Pretty well everything you will need comes in the glamorous fitted box. Maybe a few washers to fit into the braded pipe nuts. Be a bit careful with that pipe the end that fits to your tap(washing machine lever type) is fixed & when you tighten it can kink the pipe. In the end I did the Vesuvius end first.

My braded pipe fits onto a meter which keeps check of how much water has passed through the Bestmax Cartridge so that I know when to renew.


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## Daren

Looks and sounds great. I can't wait to hear more.

I'd love to see the whole set-up. Any chance of a photo of Vesuvius and EK together?


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## Obnic

ronsil said:


> Pretty well everything you will need comes in the glamorous fitted box.


That's good. I use a ScalegardPro system that also has a flow meter that I think uses the same connections (in Cornwall so can't check).

Look forward to seeing you at the jam on Sunday and hearing more.


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## Charliej

Looking good and sounding even better Ron, congrats on being the 1st production model owner in the world. I guess I'm going to have to start saving hard to afford one myself lol.


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## Thecatlinux

Thanks for sharing this with us all , seems like you're up and running and producing great shots straight out of the box always a good sign.


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## Paolo5

When you can, Ron....would you mind running a tape around your machine and record the footprint here please?

Happy by proxy that your very first shot was a ripper!


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## DavidBondy

Xpenno said:


> I think he doth protest too much.... JK


I don't think so! I just wanted to make it clear that, even though I admire the Vesuvius, I'm still totally content with my GS/3 - I've never made so many consistently great shots.

DB


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## Xpenno

DavidBondy said:


> I don't think so! I just wanted to make it clear that, even though I admire the Vesuvius, I'm still totally content with my GS/3 - I've never made so many consistently great shots.
> 
> DB


I'm just kidding DB, the GS/3 is most home barista's ultimate machine and although I've never used one I would certainly love to.

Now I'm just going to sit here and impatiently await Ron's feedback


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## ronsil

Paolo5 said:


> When you can, Ron....would you mind running a tape around your machine and record the footprint here please?Happy by proxy that your very first shot was a ripper!


It is 37 cms wide x 51 cms deep x 42 cms to top of recessed cup warmer.

Feet centers are 3 cms from edges


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## coffeechap

Xpenno said:


> I'm just kidding DB, the GS/3 is most home barista's ultimate machine and although I've never used one I would certainly love to.
> 
> Now I'm just going to sit here and impatiently await Ron's feedback


At least a wee play on one at the Titan jam might stave off the hunger dude


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## Paolo5

ronsil said:


> It is 37 cms wide x 51 cms deep x 42 cms to top of recessed cup warmer.
> 
> Feet centers are 3 cms from edges


Many thanks Rod.

Can you also tell me the diameter of the feet?


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## ronsil

2 x small feet @ 30mm

2 x large feet @ 54mm

Has 'Rod' got a Vesuvius as well?


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## Xpenno

Paolo5 said:


> Many thanks Rod.
> 
> Can you also tell me the diameter of the feet?


Stop asking him questions so that he can make coffee and let us know how good it tastes


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## Paolo5

ronsil said:


> 2 x small feet @ 30mm
> 
> 2 x large feet @ 54mm
> 
> Has 'Rod' got a Vesuvius as well?


OOOPS! Sorry 'Ron'







Thanks for dimensions...I will be quiet and sit in the corner now...


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## coffeechap

These Vesuvius owner and future owners are a like a volcano ready to erupt!


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## Ferdy

Just wow... shiny!


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## ronsil

...Someone wanted to see the EK43 & Vesuvius side by side.










I have been working to a plan for the five profiles. I need to cover these 4 types of extraction.

A simple lever machine type

A profile suitable for darker roasts

A profile suitable for lighter roasts

Something suitable for 'coffee shots', which I have come to like.

Guest profile left empty for experimentation with other peoples profiles.

All of these at this stage are 'ball park' & subject to refinement dependent on bean in use.










The Machine is absolutely level.










Quality of cup warmer rack & drip tray. Really thick stainless steel like a trivet. No protection required on cup warmer.

















Using a naked PF for first time today.

Beginning to develop.










Here it comes.










In full flow.










Not much more time now until Monday. Wife time on Saturday & Coffeechap time on Sunday.

Next week is the big test for me. I need to answer the question, 'Will the Vesuvius cope with my need for 15-20 milk based drinks back to back?'

The La Spaz never kept me waiting. Will the Vesuvius cope as well???.

See you at Rave on Sunday


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## jeebsy

Brave man going naked with the ek


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## Xpenno

jeebsy said:


> Brave man going naked with the ek


Don't start the CC off mate, before you know it you'll be coshed over the head with a lever.....


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## Xpenno

Paolo5 said:


> OOOPS! Sorry 'Ron'
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks for dimensions...I will be quiet and sit in the corner now...


You know I'm just kidding right?


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## Paolo5

xpenno said:


> you know i'm just kidding right?


Hey Xpenno!!!! Can you write in capital letters?! Can't hear you from over here in the corner!!!


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## Thecatlinux

Hi Ron

have you done the 20 milk drinks yet? Did it cope?


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## ronsil

Its all going to happen this week so watch this space towards the weekend.


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## ronsil

I've changed my timetable as I decided to try to complete a working profile for each of my bean types rather than go for the back to back milk drink tests. I will not be needing the latter until September anyway.

Noted that with my current boiler settings. it takes 84 seconds after a shot, circa 40/50 grams, for the brew boiler to come back to temperature (93C)

The lever profile pretty well works for me now so today I started to look at the profile required to cope with my darker beans. I have some lovely, my opinion, Mahogany Roast Monsooned Malabar roasted by Coffee Compass. These are beautiful Beans, dark with a little sheen & just coming to perfection.










Used 3 x 250g bags before finally coming up with the profile for 'Dark' Beans as on the amended chart.

One thing is for sure if you are seeking to get the most out of the Vesuvius, it ain't cheap.

I've taken note of some of the other tweeks I can play with but not just yet. Pump settings are interesting whereby you can accelerate the speed of the pump. You can also customise the PIDs in the steam & brew boilers. Quite what differences changes will make I have to discover at a future time

As I said all that stuff is for later. Next up will be having a go at a lighter roast profile. I'm thinking higher bar settings for starters. Busy till Thursday but very happy I've got a good 'darker' roast profile under my belt.

Got to get the priorities right.

Just had another thought - The pump,brew boiler & steam settings are for future use only. My Profiles do not take the settings shown into consideration. My Profiles are working with factory settings the Machine arrived with.


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## Paolo5

Ron....AMAZING trail-blazing here. Fabulous that you could nail another profile like that.

How do the Malabar beans taste with this manicured Vesuvius profile compared to the standard 9bar extraction on a conventional machine?

I love reading all that you are writing about this machine. Besides what it can DO, I am eager to hear what your overall impressions of your new acquisition are.


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## ronsil

Got back into it last night & worked through as usual.

I spoke with Davec since my last post & he tells me the Factory ended up pretty well using his settings for the pump speed, brew boiler & steam boiler.

Now that is very interesting because it raises several points that need checking out. Added to my list of 'To Dos'

After a 250g bag of a very nice Brazilian -Special Competition from Coffee Compass I have got a working lighter roast bean Profile.

Must just mention I purchased all my machine trial beans from them. No freebies asked for or supplied so I say it as it is. Been very pleased up to now.

The Profile I got to achieve produced a very pungent Americano & our general verdict was that it is very nice. I'm not putting up an updated Chart reflecting this Profile work just yet as I think its OK for now but needs more work. My problem is that I don't really like the lighter roasted bean. I can well live without the fruit, marzipan floral & herby coffee.

Anyway the good news is that some of the folk waiting for their Machines can look forward to an exciting time next week as Bella Barista receive their delivery from the Factory. Sorry for you Davec, you told me you are not in that delivery still having to wait for your retail version, I believe.

So it will mean I will be able to see what other people are doing with their lighter roasts.

Split pour with the Brazil lighter roast










I anticipate people will be using their 5 profiles in different ways to me. Looking forward to it.

Always here to help new owners getting started in the absence of the long awaited User Manual. Just bear in mind I've only just tip toed into what the Vesuvius is capable of. I think we are all going to learn together.


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## iroko

Thanks for the pictures, stunning looking machine.









Look forward to hearing more.


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## ronsil

Re-published a new chart showing a bit more work on the lighter roast Profile 3.

Its better now but still waiting to see other folks attempts being made next week:


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## ronsil

Been trying out the steamer today.

Wow its fast. A bit overkill for small quantities so I tried one of the 3 hole tips from the Izzo Duetto 3 tip package I purchased from BB with the Vesuvius.

The Duetto tips fit well & the 3 holes are noticeably smaller slowing down the steam delivery for small jugs.

I'll reserve judgement on the steam arm. It looks a bit tight with a large jug under but we'll see next week


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## slas111

Ive just ordered the Vesuvius

any idea when they will be in stock?

ive emailed bellabarista but ive had no reply at the moment


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## ronsil

There is a batch hopefully going into BB this coming week but I think they are all sold as pre orders.

Claudette is back from holiday this week & its best keeping in touch with her. She will have all the latest info.


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## EricC

Congratulations Ron.


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## Obnic

Thanks Ron for sharing your most thorough work. It will doubtless save the rest of us lots of time and a small fortune in beans. This is an excellent resource.


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## Mrboots2u

Hi Ron

Catching up on your posts and Saw this one below .....

"Noted that with my current boiler settings. it takes 84 seconds after a shot, circa 40/50 grams, for the brew boiler to come back to temperature (93C)"

This seems like along time , but then I though I have nothing to compare it too , pump and DB machine wise...

Can you remember what the spaz was like door instance ...


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## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi Ron
> 
> Catching up on your posts and Saw this one below .....
> 
> "Noted that with my current boiler settings. it takes 84 seconds after a shot, circa 40/50 grams, for the brew boiler to come back to temperature (93C)"
> 
> This seems like along time , but then I though I have nothing to compare it too , pump and DB machine wise...
> 
> Can you remember what the spaz was like door instance ...


Dave Corby has recommended some PID settings over on the Vesuvius forum to speed this up significantly. Can't remember what they are off the top of my head. There is a PID setting that sets the temp offset from the desired brew temp at which the PID gives the heater full power to recover, otherwise it acts as a PID (i.e. more controlled heating). Default setting is 10deg off brew temp I think, if you lower this setting to 5 or so then the reheat time will reduce at the expense of electricity.


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## Xpenno

slas111 said:


> Ive just ordered the Vesuvius
> 
> any idea when they will be in stock?
> 
> ive emailed bellabarista but ive had no reply at the moment


First batch which were all sold (to the best of my knowledge) are not even here yet. My guess is that you could be waiting a while. You never know though. Claudette should be able to give you a better idea once she gets back from her hols.


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## ronsil

We've noted that 84 seconds appear to be slow.

Am about to do some more controlled tests.

It may mean some attention to the advanced PIDs &/or pump speed.

Will keep my thread updated.


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## Paolo_Cortese

Xpenno said:


> First batch which were all sold (to the best of my knowledge) are not even here yet. My guess is that you could be waiting a while. You never know though. Claudette should be able to give you a better idea once she gets back from her hols.


Next week the first shipment will leave from the factory and the week after another shipment is scheduled. For sure the first shipment is already sold, I don't know about the second shipment, but probably there are some machines available.


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## Paolo_Cortese

ronsil said:


> We've noted that 84 seconds appear to be slow.
> 
> Am about to do some more controlled tests.
> 
> It may mean some attention to the advanced PIDs &/or pump speed.
> 
> Will keep my thread updated.


For sure is very slow. Did you change something or you are using the factory setting?


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## ronsil

No it is at the factory settings but the test was very casual. With more care the recovery speed is now faster.

Details to follow


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## ronsil

Ok, I try not to be too casual when testing & dealing with data.

The other day whilst involved with setting profiles I just pressed the timer when the shot had completed & it went to 84 secs. I had stopped the timer late.

Later I did it again twice with much more care. This time we were down to 44 secs.

Davec was convinced it could be quicker than that We made a couple of adjustments to the PIDs & voila:










& thats repeated itself all afternoon.

I'm falling for this Machine more by the minute. A long way to go yet but I feel we're going to be real friends & the coffee is pretty good too.

Still got the milk tests to come.


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## Obnic

Thanks Ron. Do you recall the PID settings you settled on in the end.


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## hotmetal

Very cool machine! I'm amazed at the level of adjustment and profiling you can do on these, not to mention how solidly engineered they are.


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## Xpenno

Whilst waiting relatively impatiently for my machine to arrive I've started working on pressure profile directory. At present it's just an excel spreadsheet but I hope to be able to turn it into a website (and who knows maybe a phone app if there is enough interest). The idea is simple, you add/share your profiles, you can then browse through the library and see the settings for each as well as profile a graph that gives you a good visual indicator of what's actually going on.

List of my current profiles to test (some taken from other sources, some made up by my crazy mind)










Another example profile










It's worth noting that excels graph smoothing sucks monkey balls so I've left the connections as straight which doesn't necessarily represent the pump pressure ramp to any degree of accuracy.

P = Pressure

ET = End Time

D = Duration of Stage

Yes I'm a danger when espresso no longer courses through my veins.....


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## ronsil

That's looking great Spence.

That's a real Pro looking job. Can't wait to get started with that one.


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## Xpenno

Yeah, needs some tweaking to make it more user friendly and I'm not sure that it's going to be possible in Excel. I've done similar projects (graph work aside) previously so it shouldn't be too hard to knock it into a website.


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## Thecatlinux

Have you used any of the timer modes Ron ? I am sure i remember reading about being able To set the machine to come on in the morning, and about standby features . Etc...Etc

Just wondered if these features filtered down or were implemented to the production machines ?

PS I have a feeling the machine is going to be more than capable of your milk test . LOL


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## ronsil

Yes, I use the timer all the time.

Offers you a daily timetable with two on/off sessions per day & the ability to keep a day blank if required.

Appreciate not having to get up in the morning to turn it on. Did that for years with the La Spaz. The special timer it required costs a fortune extra.

Probably another week or so until I get properly into the milk. With this Machine so much crops up on a daily basis it really is time absorbing.


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## DavidBondy

Thecatlinux said:


> Have you used any of the timer modes Ron ? I am sure i remember reading about being able To set the machine to come on in the morning


Although not directly relevant to Ron's Vesuvius, I'd say that this is one of the most useful, usability features. I have my GS/3 set to come on at 04:00 so it is fully up to temperature and pressure when I get up an hour later.


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## Mrboots2u

DavidBondy said:


> Although not directly relevant to Ron's Vesuvius, I'd say that this is one of the most useful, usability features. I have my GS/3 set to come on at 04:00 so it is fully up to temperature and pressure when I get up an hour later.


Looks like a great feature , but part of me likes the wemo though , if that breaks I can easily replace it without compromising anything else or other bit of electrics in a machine.

If the one on the gs3 or Vesuvius goes I wonder if it would effect the ability to use the machine at all ( switching itself on and off etc ) or not turning it on etc.....

On other side does the Vesuvius one have a sleep mode for temp and times like the slayer does ......

Where it's goes In to a power saving mode but keeps the group hot ....

Sounding over critical , and am not meant to, just asking questions of the functionality

Ron?


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## ronsil

I don't think a failure of the timer on/off control would effect/stop the machine running. Haven't been there yet, so I don't really know.

Regarding a sleep (Econ) mode for temp & times? - it sure does. A touch on any control immediately wakes it up to resume work.


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## DavidBondy

Mrboots2u said:


> Looks like a great feature , but part of me likes the wemo though , if that breaks I can easily replace it without compromising anything else or other bit of electrics in a machine.
> 
> If the one on the gs3 or Vesuvius goes I wonder if it would effect the ability to use the machine at all ( switching itself on and off etc ) or not turning it on etc.....


The problem is Martin, that you could say the same about any electronics. A PID could fail, a circuit board burn out etc. etc. I think that one has to rely on manufacturer component selection and build quality. I suppose, if you really want to get down to the most simplicity then a plumbed in Lever machine gives the lowest degree of potential component failure. In this day and age, electronics have become pretty reliable IMHO!


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## Thecatlinux

Timer control is a relatively easy thing to achieve in the electrical world and quality and reliability of solid state components in this day and age , I can't see a conceivable failure imminent, and in the unlikely event, fault diagnoses and repair wouldn't be that challenging.

Love the idea of switching the machine for pre warm up before use , a relatively easy task , I have all the gear laying around to do it , but haven't got round to it , (they say most plumbers taps drip )

GSM control anyone ?


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## ronsil

Looking back on my posts & pictures, I found "not a deliberate" mistake. Anyone spot it?

I have an album of split pours but handling so many pics I put up a pic of a split pour from the La Spaz instead of the Vesuvius. Post 39

Apologies

Anyway here is todays.:



















weighing in at:










To avoid confusion I may well edit out the original posted pic & replace it with this one. Just need the time to do it.


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## Mrboots2u

DavidBondy said:


> The problem is Martin, that you could say the same about any electronics. A PID could fail, a circuit board burn out etc. etc. I think that one has to rely on manufacturer component selection and build quality. I suppose, if you really want to get down to the most simplicity then a plumbed in Lever machine gives the lowest degree of potential component failure. In this day and age, electronics have become pretty reliable IMHO!


Agree with your point re build quality , and it wasn't about lever or pump just whether some of the nice feature would effect in the long run some of the have to have features.

you can buy something that does what the timer does ( wemo ) so it's nice . The machine is useless without a pid.......

Anyway I'll bow out now , was a hypothetical question


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## DavidBondy

Mrboots2u said:


> Agree with your point re build quality , and it wasn't about lever or pump just whether some of the nice feature would effect in the long run some of the have to have features.
> 
> you can buy something that does what the timer does ( wemo ) so it's nice . The machine is useless without a pid.......
> 
> Anyway I'll bow out now , was a hypothetical question


No, my point wasn't about lever v pump it was about simple v complex and a simple, plumbed in (i.e. no pump) lever is the simplest so there is less to go wrong. That was the point i was making (albeit not very clearly by all accounts!)


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## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> Agree with your point re build quality , and it wasn't about lever or pump just whether some of the nice feature would effect in the long run some of the have to have features.
> 
> you can buy something that does what the timer does ( wemo ) so it's nice . The machine is useless without a pid.......
> 
> Anyway I'll bow out now , was a hypothetical question


I don't know about the Vesuvius or GS/3 but if a machine has what is effectively a "soft start" power switch, such as the Sage does, which can't be left in an on position then a Wemo is a bout as much use as a bicycle is to a fish so you have to use the built in timer.


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## ronsil

Latest Chart showing all installed settings & current profiles.

Am now waiting to compare profiles with other folk as their Machines begin to arrive.

Enjoying beautiful coffee out of this Vesuvius. Just my steaming tests next week


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## Thecatlinux

You can tell you've been busy Ron with your machine , I am the impression you are enjoying it and are pleased with your choice,

Do you have a Go to profile sort of like a favourite profile that you seem to use more than overs?

And dare I ask how many sink shots you have had ?


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## ronsil

Profile 2 or the La Spax mimic at Profile 5 are most used.

Oh yes, a load of 'sink' shots whilst developing the profiles. Wasteful but unavoidable.

Feel like the 'Lone Ranger' sometimes with very little to refer to.

Even if my profiles don't suit others who follow when their machines arrive, they will have something to start them off.

Don;t forget you still need to dial-in in line with weather, ambient temperature & of course change of beans. Got the latter to come as I have stayed with the same beans since I started 2 weeks ago. My first different beans will be this months DSOL at the weekend.


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## Obnic

@ronsil sorry to keep badgering you for advice but when you plumbed in your V did you use a pressure reducing valve with gauge? If so, to what value have you set the pressure.

My filter is mains fed and the cartridge + exit pipe diameter naturally reduce flow but I've never measured the resulting pressure. I'm not sure if I need to install a PRV (as one might on a normal E61 machine) given that the pump controls pressure directly.


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## Xpenno

Obnic said:


> @ronsil sorry to keep badgering you for advice but when you plumbed in your V did you use a pressure reducing valve with gauge? If so, to what value have you set the pressure.
> 
> My filter is mains fed and the cartridge + exit pipe diameter naturally reduce flow but I've never measured the resulting pressure. I'm not sure if I need to install a PRV (as one might on a normal E61 machine) given that the pump controls pressure directly.


There is no benefit from using a PRV as under normal circumstances the inlet feed is isolated and the machine runs from the boiler an pump pressure only. When the boiler needs filling the inlet is activated and it runs a fill cycle. This is so that inlet pressure doesn't affect the pressure at the group. I guess a PRV may be required if you have very high mains pressure but it doesn't sound like this is the case.


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## ronsil

Exactly as Spence says.

The Vesuvius arrangement feeds the boilers via the tank at all times, thus it is not affected by outside pressures.


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## Paolo_Cortese

Obnic said:


> @ronsil sorry to keep badgering you for advice but when you plumbed in your V did you use a pressure reducing valve with gauge? If so, to what value have you set the pressure.
> 
> My filter is mains fed and the cartridge + exit pipe diameter naturally reduce flow but I've never measured the resulting pressure. I'm not sure if I need to install a PRV (as one might on a normal E61 machine) given that the pump controls pressure directly.


Please read the following post

http://vesuvius.freeforums.org/replies-to-some-question-t12.html


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## Obnic

@ paolo_Cortese



ronsil said:


> The Vesuvius arrangement feeds the boilers via the tank at all times, thus it is not affected by outside pressures.


Interesting decision to keep refilling the tank rather than opt for a closed water circuit. Water in tanks ages. I routinely empty and bleach my existing machines water tank to keep things fresh. I guess this will still be necessary.


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## Paolo_Cortese

http://vesuvius.freeforums.org/post68.html#p68



Obnic said:


> @ paolo_Cortese
> 
> Interesting decision to keep refilling the tank rather than opt for a closed water circuit. Water in tanks ages. I routinely empty and bleach my existing machines water tank to keep things fresh. I guess this will still be necessary.


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## Obnic

Thanks for the answers Paolo. Everything has clearly been very thoroughly thought through. Can't wait to get hands on now.


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## Xpenno

The new arrival...


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## ronsil

eeeerrrrr...... where is it then Spence???

Pictures insitu to prove it please>


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## MrShades

When BB are posting pictures of Spence and his Vesuvius on Facebook before he's got pics on here - something is wrong ;-)

Congrats Spence - enjoy your new toy!


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## Xpenno

Sorry dudes phone fail


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## ronsil

Congrats Spence - I hope you get as much pleasure & good coffee out of it as I do.

Have you had anything out of it yet?


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## Xpenno

ronsil said:


> Congrats Spence - I hope you get as much pleasure & good coffee out of it as I do.
> 
> Have you had anything out of it yet?


Not had much chance to play but have had 2 good and 2 bad so far. Lots to test.


----------



## DavecUK

Xpenno said:


> Not had much chance to play but have had 2 good and 2 bad so far. Lots to test.


At least your not having to write the user guide!


----------



## Xpenno

DavecUK said:


> At least your not having to write the user guide!


I'm pretty sure that I'm not qualified to write the user manual Dave, in fact I know I'm not!!!


----------



## Paolo5

Congratulations Spence!


----------



## DavidBondy

Congratulations Spence - you should ask BB for a royalty for putting that photo of you onto Facebook!


----------



## ronsil

After the excitement of Spence's new arrival I am now going to resume my findings on the Vesuvius.

Next up - to check speed of recovery in a continuous working environment.

Prepared 10 shot pots loaded with 19 grams beans (MM+Brazil Blend).

Lined up 2 x double PFs (1 Vesuvius + 1 spare E61)

Started with one on the brew head & the other warming on cup warmer.

Using alternate PFs produced 20 shots, from 10 split pours, circa 16 grams each. Direct into 6 oz cups:










Verdict is at least as fast maybe just a little faster than the La Spaz but can see it will improve with practice of the work flow.

Took just a sip of the odd one or two. Very repeatable the last shot almost identical to the first. Used my Profile 2 from the chart but dropping the pre-infusion to 5 seconds from 8. Now this is interesting because Davec has been finding a better result with a much longer pre-infusion. Never sure of these things but am thinking it could be to do with the EK43. DC uses other grinders.

On with the steaming over the next few days to see the best way to cope with 20 milk drinks.

Got to say the steam arm does not look quite right to me:

















Just OK with smaller jugs but looks like a few problems using my 600 & 800 Motta jugs:



















No real comment till we try it out.


----------



## ronsil

Here's a puck from the 'run'. Very sweet, full bodied nice aftertaste:


----------



## Thecatlinux

Bagsie the mottas if you have to change them


----------



## Charliej

How much articulation is there on the steam wand Ron?


----------



## ronsil

Well I think you are nudging the problem there Charlie.

I don't want to say much until I've completed my tests.

In a couple of days I'll report back.


----------



## Charliej

Ah so maybe I should have asked how much articulation there isn't on the steam wand?


----------



## gman147

I think it's a common problem with many home machines that the steam arm has short clearance :-(

Love the GS3 style arms.


----------



## Charliej

gman147 said:


> I think it's a common problem with many home machines that the steam arm has short clearance :-(
> 
> Love the GS3 style arms.


The Sage has pretty good clearance and articulation, and can move 360 degrees.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Lol sagewang


----------



## garydyke1

Charliej said:


> The Sage has pretty good clearance and articulation, and can move 360 degrees.


yeah but it takes 5 hours to steam. worth the wait tho


----------



## Charliej

It's not that bad lol and I've tried it with a 2 hole Rocket tip which fits and with the steam boiler at 140 degrees it's a little unruly, may buy the Rocket tip set just for kicks lol.


----------



## ronsil

Here we are almost at the end of my introduction to the Vesuvius.

IMO - We've hit the first downside to the Machine.

I'm referring to the steam arm. Nothing wrong with the steam power & boiler recovery speed, its excellent but the arm does not accommodate large jugs & is the wrong shape. Plenty of articulation available but that's not the problem.

In order for it to descend vertically into the milk it needs to come up from the gland like an inverted 'U' shape. As someone stated a bit like the GS3 or indeed like a Synesso.

Without this shape small jugs are not a problem but anything 500 & above means the jug has to slope too much & you cannot easily stretch the milk & then when you roll it at that slope you risk the milk overflowing the jug. With the slope it means you have to devote too much attention to the steaming instead of being able to hold it in the vertical position.

A work around could be a steam arm with the same shape as fitted but a rather longer horizontal length in the middle of the wand. This would put it well over the edge of the drip tray & the problem would go away.

Just got through 2 x 4 pints Cravendale semi skimmed milk finding my best way to deal with my quantity of espresso based milk drinks. If only I could get a large jug under the wand I could ease the need to swap & change about to get rid of the large bubbles.

If you are only ever going to use circa 300 jugs, no problem.

Finally summing up overall, its a great Machine. All the control you could ever wish for & capable of producing beautiful coffee

Coupled with the EK I feel I am well set for many years to come.

There are always new things to try & experiment. The Vesuvius allows you to do this.

Disappointing with the steam arm but I'll have to get round it. Maybe future models will see an improvement in this area or even better maybe an alternative steam arm could be offered.(even as a chargeable option)

All in all a super Machine - Knowing what I now know about the steam arm it wouldn't stop me purchasing again. The Machine is too good to miss out on.


----------



## Charliej

Thanks for such a comprehensive look into your 1st few weeks with the Vesuvius Ron, it's certainly determined that should I manage to save the money this is the machine I would spend it on.


----------



## El carajillo

ronsil said:


> Here we are almost at the end of my introduction to the Vesuvius.
> 
> IMO - We've hit the first downside to the Machine.
> 
> I'm referring to the steam arm. Nothing wrong with the steam power & boiler recovery speed, its excellent but the arm does not accommodate large jugs & is the wrong shape. Plenty of articulation available but that's not the problem.
> 
> In order for it to descend vertically into the milk it needs to come up from the gland like an inverted 'U' shape. As someone stated a bit like the GS3 or indeed like a Synesso.
> 
> Without this shape small jugs are not a problem but anything 500 & above means the jug has to slope too much & you cannot easily stretch the milk & then when you roll it at that slope you risk the milk overflowing the jug. With the slope it means you have to devote too much attention to the steaming instead of being able to hold it in the vertical position.
> 
> A work around could be a steam arm with the same shape as fitted but a rather longer horizontal length in the middle of the wand. This would put it well over the edge of the drip tray & the problem would go away.
> 
> Just got through 2 x 4 pints Cravendale semi skimmed milk finding my best way to deal with my quantity of espresso based milk drinks. If only I could get a large jug under the wand I could ease the need to swap & change about to get rid of the large bubbles.
> 
> If you are only ever going to use circa 300 jugs, no problem.
> 
> Finally summing up overall, its a great Machine. All the control you could ever wish for & capable of producing beautiful coffee
> 
> Coupled with the EK I feel I am well set for many years to come.
> 
> There are always new things to try & experiment. The Vesuvius allows you to do this.
> 
> Disappointing with the steam arm but I'll have to get round it. Maybe future models will see an improvement in this area or even better maybe an alternative steam arm could be offered.(even as a chargeable option)
> 
> All in all a super Machine - Knowing what I now know about the steam arm it wouldn't stop me purchasing again. The Machine is too good to miss out on.


As many steam arms have a similar fitment would it be possible to exchange for a different arm off another machine with more offset ?


----------



## ronsil

It probably will be possible & I will be contacting BB next week.

However I would like to hear what Vesuvius themselves have to say. Problem of course Italy shuts down early August


----------



## Jollybean

Congrats on the new machine Spence. Looks like it will be well worth the wait judging by Ron's excellent commentary on his experience with it.


----------



## Xpenno

Some pics of my machine, might need to fire up the K10 to test out some really long slayer-esq pre-infusion times in the week as I'm not sure that the coffee burrs can go fine enough. Still got loads to get my head around but I'm getting there now.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Looking good spence .....use the Turks possibly?


----------



## garydyke1

Use the coffurks or turkees


----------



## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> Looking good spence .....use the Turks possibly?


Certainly toying with the idea mate. Give them another go, especially with my burr alignment tool (read: chopped up folder....)

Choices, choices


----------



## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> Use the coffurks or turkees


Oh, wait, that'll just be you then.... If the police come asking, you ain't seen me, right?


----------



## ronsil

Fits in very well, Spence. You're on a great journey.

Bet your're enjoying it.

I like using the Machine so much my daily (& night) coffee consumption has really gone into orbit.

Hope to (must) contain that a bit this coming week.


----------



## Xpenno

Neither the Galaxy S3 or Jill are going to win any videography awards for this one but it's my first Vesuvius shot vid so here you go.....

P.s. just in case you wondered, yes my arm is that massive in real life.....


----------



## Xpenno

Xpenno said:


> Neither the Galaxy S3 or Jill are going to win any videography awards for this one but it's my first Vesuvius shot vid so here you go.....
> 
> P.s. just in case you wondered, yes my arm is that massive in real life.....


Coffee was ground on that there ****'s EK Toffee burrs.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Toffee burks ....

What profile btw

Coffee burks is better


----------



## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> Toffee burks ....
> 
> What profile btw
> 
> Coffee burks is better


12sec 2bar and some time at 9bar, think it does start to ramp down slightly at the end. Just knocked up a quick one to run a comparable profile to Gary's sage.


----------



## garydyke1

How did it taste


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Looks a great set up Spence.


----------



## Xpenno

garydyke1 said:


> How did it taste


You know the answer to that, I had the PID offset incorrectly set so I was running at about 88deg, although it didn't taste bad I wasn't running to the shop to buy some more.... I'll run the second one tonight a the correct temp.


----------



## Obnic

On this occasion I'm going to open the package.


----------



## 4085

Good one James!


----------



## ronsil

Obnic said:


> On this occasion I'm going to open the package.


Are you really sure you want to??????.

I'm sure you are going to enjoy it.

You can always call on two fast learning early adopters & of course, Davec for any help we can offer.


----------



## ronsil

Anybody object if I change the title of this thread to "Vesuvius B0001.....& upwards"?

Think it more appropriate.


----------



## Obnic

Never thought I'd see the Brewtus as a dainty machine.


----------



## Paolo5

V-E-R-Y nice!.....


----------



## Obnic

Really haven't had 10 mins to spend with the new machine yet but wanted to ask has anyone else noticed an almost 'brushed chrome' finish.

My 5 yr old Brewtus is a mirror finish but the Vesuvius is not. This picture makes it look worse than it really is but the abrasions are definitely there.


----------



## Xpenno

Obnic said:


> Really haven't had 10 mins to spend with the new machine yet but wanted to ask has anyone else noticed an almost 'brushed chrome' finish.
> 
> My 5 yr old Brewtus is a mirror finish but the Vesuvius is not. This picture makes it look worse than it really is but the abrasions are definitely there.


Yeah, same here, finish does not feel as high quality as my Verona. I posted some very quick initial thoughts over on the Vesuvius forum and I'll do a write up here as soon as I get a few seconds.


----------



## Obnic

@xpenno yes. A couple of things make me think the emphasis is in the wrong place ie fantastic packaging but:

Cups will be balanced on the edge of the drip try when using the double split pour portafilter.

The two lights are irritatingly not quite central - so close but not... Why?

The gap between the reservoir door panel and the main body of the machine makes the main body looks like it's dented. (See photo.). And the door panel takes a bit of encouragement and jiggling to shut properly (it was open in the crate - at first I thought it had been bent in transit.

The drip tray basket didn't sit in the drip tray: either the tray was twisted or the basket was?

And I'm with Ron on the whole steam wand length.

Sure hope this thing is a revelation in the cup because I'm a bit underwhelmed at the moment.


----------



## coffeechap

Lots if interesting stuff here, I will be posting up my experience of the prototype in a few days just got to start writing it


----------



## Paolo_Cortese

The problem of the steel finishing is that our machine have a 2 mm thick panel that cannot be finished as super mirror like the 0,8/1 mm thick used from other manufacturers. The 2 mm is finished mechanically instead of chemically finishing used on thinner steel. The side area between the fold of the front panel and the side panel shown some space the problem is that's a welded area and during the welding the planarity of the steel will be always compromised. We do all the best to finish in the best way mechanically and aesthetically sometime we cannot do more but we are working to find the best solution to improve our machines. The 2 LEDs are not centered due of internal layout, if centered to change the left led some parts of the machine should be disassembled.


----------



## ronsil

Very interesting.

My differences are:

- 2 x 8oz cups sit perfectly on the drip tray with the discharge spouts over the centre of cups

- Lights don't worry me

- Side door perfectly in line with body

- Drip tray steel mesh fits the drip tray exactly

- Steam wand is impossible as I already stated.

- Finish does not really bother me. I find it acceptable

My phone camera is not working at the moment but a little later will put up pictures illustrating my points.

Can't wait to hear what you are getting out, coffee wise, from the Machine.


----------



## ronsil

Pictures retaken as promised


----------



## Xpenno

Paolo_Cortese said:


> The problem of the steel finishing is that our machine have a 2 mm thick panel that cannot be finished as super mirror like the 0,8/1 mm thick used from other manufacturers. The 2 mm is finished mechanically instead of chemically finishing used on thinner steel. The side area between the fold of the front panel and the side panel shown some space the problem is that's a welded area and during the welding the planarity of the steel will be always compromised. We do all the best to finish in the best way mechanically and aesthetically sometime we cannot do more but we are working to find the best solution to improve our machines. The 2 LEDs are not centered due of internal layout, if centered to change the left led some parts of the machine should be disassembled.


Thanks for the clarification! I still want to make it clear that this in no way affected my decision to purchase the machine. I had seen mine in the flesh before taking it away and I'm perfectly happy with it but some maybe more fussy.


----------



## ronsil

coffeechap said:


> Lots if interesting stuff here, I will be posting up my experience of the prototype in a few days just got to start writing it


Looking forward to that.

I think you will be giving your expert experiences with a 'Dealer' machine which is different from the prototype & the production models.


----------



## coffeechap

I believe that in terms of aesthetics it is not that different ron


----------



## Xpenno

As for the other niggles mentioned

I'm using scales and they fit on perfectly with two espresso cups, no problems here.

I noticed the lights on the pre-prod machine but again, nothing to worry about as far as I am concerned.

Not noticed any issue with the side door not fitting, mine is a little stiff to open/close but that's all.

One thing I noticed on the prototype was that the drip tray grill fit nice and tight, this is not the case on my production model. I'll probably fit some small rubber dots to keep it in place.

Steam wand has been mentioned previously and I agree that it could be more manoeuvrable.


----------



## ronsil

Xpenno said:


> Steam wand has been mentioned previously and I agree that it could be more manoeuvrable.


I think its more a question of shape. There is lots of articulation but just no way to get it vertical into a large jug.

I hoping to hear further from the Factory on this one when they return from the Italian 'close-down'


----------



## Paolo5

ronsil said:


> - Side door perfectly in line with body


Your picture doesn't illustrate this at all..


----------



## ronsil

I am well into the Vesuvius now & beginning to find my way around the Advanced screens.

This Machine meets my current needs perfectly. The coffee that is coming out is better than any other home machine I have ever owned.

On Rave's DSOL July Beans the resulting shots were full bodied with excellent flavour.

A couple of shots of the puck from this morning:



















Don't regret one penny of the money spent.

For me its the coffee & ease of production that counts.

My issue with the steam wand is being addressed by the Factory & hopefully remedied after the Italian shutdown.

Just in case anyone is in any doubt I have absolutely no connection with Ambiente or Bella Barista. Just a customer who took a chance with the first one off the production line


----------



## Obnic

Hi Ron, what's the factory solution to the wand?


----------



## ronsil

They are looking at the problem & have suggested possibly the steam & HW wands from their lever machine. Just would mean turning round the arms so that the wands attaches at the top of the pipe.

The problem is that as always Italian factories shut down for 2 weeks at this time of year.


----------



## slas111

I've the same problems obnic

i can live with it but really need the steam wand sorted quickly it's awful


----------



## Obnic

I've decided to concentrate on the in-cup capabilities of this machine, to remember that the pre-order deal was a good one, and to have faith that the guys that made it are here on the forum working to make it and the owner experience a success.


----------



## Xpenno

Had my first full day to play with the Vesuvius today. Had some absolutely fantastic shots, in fact I'd say some of the best that I've ever made at home, really glad I decided to upgrade. The pressure profiling combined with the superb temperature stability = fantastic espresso. I've been running a profile which is based on a T3 Auralia with soft infusion system enabled, this is essentially a slow ramp up over the first 10 seconds up to 9bar and then finish that shot at 9bar. Shots are really stable (medium/light roast and EK coffee burrs) and taste superb! going to try and slight ramp down in pressure on the end of the shot to try and drag even more sweetness out of the coffee.

Also I've been messing with my new camera and thought I'd share a couple of shots of my Vesuvius


----------



## ronsil

Looking great Spence...



> in fact I'd say some of the best that I've ever made at home, really glad I decided to upgrade.


...and that makes two of us.

BTW - Should be getting a sample replacement steam wand from Claudette, Bella Barista, to test tomorrow (I hope) or Monday. It was posted to me today.

Watch this space...


----------



## ronsil

Not in the post today. Ah well for sure Monday.

Spence had a Profile he offered me to try.

I played around a bit, as you do, & dropped down the ramp out, at the end.

Its a great profile for a medium plus bean. Very well suited to the July DSOL from Rave.

I've updated the Chart/Info this morning for those interested.










Its Profile 5.

How much better coffee is this machine going to produce I wonder.

Fully accept it absolutely as it is. It does the business for me.


----------



## Xpenno

Drip tray and cup tray mod

So I just picked up these from homebase....










I've fitted them to both the cup rack and the drip tray and they stop both movement and vibration of both. I had to cut the ones for the drip tray a little so that they looked less obvious and as it's pretty tight in there. The upshot is that they work perfectly! They did dot versions which may work better for the drip tray but these will do for now









Cup Rack










Drip Tray


----------



## iroko

Would the steam arm from the LI fit, the part with the toggle looks the same?


----------



## Obnic

Guys, so sorry I haven't been sharing as well as you all have. Honestly been so busy this week I haven't had a chance to do anything meaningful yet. And today I'm skippering family and godchildren and friends so Nespresso is all we have on board. Promise I'll be a better citizen as soon as I have two minutes to rub together. Have really enjoyed reading your posts. Can't wait to get stuck in properly. J


----------



## ronsil

Postman came early this morning & delivered a new steam wand sent from Claudette at Bella Barista. After a lot of testing I think they found the Alex Duetto Wand is the one with the best shape.

Just fitted it:



















Bit of a fiddle with the no-burn wand tube interior, plastic is so stiff, hot water did nothing to soften it.

Works much better. Not perfect but can now be used & less dangerous from scalding than the original that came with the Machine. Takes large jugs very easily

Happy for the problem to have been resolved but wonder if the Factory are going to recall & replace the supplied wands.


----------



## Obnic

Just noticed my machine number is 007.


----------



## DavidBondy

Obnic said:


> Just noticed my machine number is 007.


I guess that is the number I should have if I bought one!!!


----------



## Xpenno

Obnic said:


> Just noticed my machine number is 007.


Very cool! That just reminded me, I was supposed to send my serial No. to BB. Could you tell me where it is located please?


----------



## ronsil

The number is in the water tank compartment..


----------



## Obnic

I think the boys have already covered the in the cup aspects of this machine. I just wanted to add how much calmer my whole coffee making experience has become.

Virtually all the paraphernalia has disappeared because the computer takes care of the time plug and shot timer functions, and the machine itself is so consistent that I find I've stopped using the naked PF; and the extraction is so much quieter than the Brewtus.

I'm down to me, a grinder, a tamper and the machine. It's a real pleasure.


----------



## Spazbarista

One day I'll gatecrash Ron's and get him to make me a coffee. Only problem is Ron has become nocturnal since the arrival of his Vesuvius.

I can identify with what you say. My move to a Brewtus from a Silvia meant much more ease (no waiting for steam, big drip tray). The move to the Spaz is another progression...after it is set up one button press only, quiet pump, plumb in means endless water for rinsing. The logical next step is a Nespresso


----------



## ronsil

Spazbarista said:


> Only problem is Ron has become nocturnal since the arrival of his Vesuvius.


You're dead right there but I am now passed that point.

Back to 6 personal coffees per day. The Vesuvius suits me perfectly.

Took a bit of effort to learn to control the Beast but now its like I've always had it. So repeatable & fast with the EK.

My problem with the steam arm has been resolved, by Claudette, but still awaiting the Factory's return to work to see how they resolve the issue.


----------



## Obnic

Anyone else like the idea of the new Vesuvius steam wand having the same thread as the sproline foam knife? I understand they use the same thread as La Marzocco.

http://www.espressoparts.com/EP_TX_FOAMKNIFE1


----------



## Obnic

I'm getting a white deposit - seems like calcium - around the mushroom. I'm assuming this is just a poor seal. Will simply tightening it work or do I need to do something more?


----------



## El carajillo

The thick teflon seals can soften and settle when hot, a slight tweak with a spanner will cure it. Use a soft jawed spanner or wrap the nut with electrical tape to protect the chrome

The mushroom valve gets very hot and does encourage scale. Check your water hardness. (I found even good bottled water caused scale)


----------



## Obnic

El carajillo said:


> Check your water hardness. (I found even good bottled water caused scale)


Yes. I was surprised since I'm using a 3M Scalegard Pro BNP95 inline filtering system. It's showing 1500 litres remaining capacity so should still be doing its job properly. Thames water is practically chalk though.


----------



## ronsil

Well its now 3 months since I became the owner of the first in the world Vesuvius off the production line.

After an initial month (including many nights) or so, things have settled down. It has its foibles (steam wand for example) but it is pretty responsive to whatever you may wish to do with it.

I bought it along with the EK to speed up the way I need to produce espresso based(lots of milk) drinks in numbers from time to time.

In short it does just that. I've finished playing with the profiles shot by shot & now stay with a profile I have established to suit my style of Beans.

When I start to use a new bean I initially use my basic 'lever type' profile (P1)for assessment & in accordance to the taste, if necessary, I set up a new profile(P2) based on my regular with a few tweeks. In practice because my Beans are similar I am generally able to stay with my proven regular Profile (P3). I still keep my profile 5 empty to try beans & other peoples profiles outside my normal parameters. I still like to try Coffee Shots (P4) from time to time with a lighter bean.

I've lost the urge to consider a Slayer or Speedster. For what I want to achieve the Vesuvius is well meeting my needs on a daily basis.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Have you retro fitter and different steam wand to your s Ron?


----------



## 4085

boots, your spelling is carp


----------



## ronsil

Both BB & I are still in discussions with the Factory & Paolo the designer.

I've supplied numerous photos & suggestions as recently as last week. Something will be done I am sure because they are now in Australia & from reading HB are about to cross the Atlantic. People in those areas will require an effective wand for milk drinks. I am hoping for a recall of the wand & the supply of a correct shape. Shame really because there is 'bags' of steam power available.

For the time being the 75% solution has been a Duetto steam arm off of Claudette's showroom Machine. Works reasonably well but does not completely resolve the issue.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Mrboots2u said:


> Have you retro fitter and different steam wand to your s Ron?





dfk41 said:


> boots, your spelling is carp


Spelling is OK. Typing is carp


----------



## ronsil

dfk41 said:


> boots, your spelling is carp


Its called 'speed writing' --- I think.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Hi Ron I see Home Batista are reviewing it currently


----------



## ronsil

Yes, I said that in my Post.


----------



## Squarepusher

As a new member here, I just wanted to say what a great thread this is.

I am currently considering my next machine.

And have been saving for what I thought was going to be either a GS/3 or a Slayer.

But the review of this machine has changed my thought process, considering the price this machine seems to offer so much and from what has been written seems to offer everything you want from great espresso in the cup.


----------



## Obnic

I've been getting a nasty whining rattling sound from my Vesuvius 007 at pressures around 9-11 bar. The lever is also starting to spontaneously drop.

All loose parts like drop trays etc have long ago been isolated using Sugru or rubber mat.

Here's a video I tried to post for the Vesuvius forum lads but the site seemed unable to load.

Any thoughts / advice would be gratefully received. My next step is to arrange a visit to BB but that's likely new year at this rate.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Did you see the post on the Vesuvius forum re dropping lever and new cam?


----------



## Obnic

Mrboots2u said:


> Did you see the post on the Vesuvius forum re dropping lever and new cam?


Yes. New cam in development.... alongside new steam arm, and the promised tamper I expect.

Was sad to learn that switching the hot water and steam wands is not really practical either. I think this machine would have benefitted greatly from more beta testing.


----------



## Xpenno

So the lever dropping has been discussed on other forums, give it a chemical back flush and that should provide enough traction to keep the lever up.

My guess is that the noise is coming from the fact that the pump is still on but the group valves are partially closed which would be restricting the flow. I wouldn't run it like this as it could cause damage to the pump or blow off an internal water pipe.

Spence


----------



## Mrboots2u

Obnic said:


> Yes. New cam in development.... alongside new steam arm, and the promised tamper I expect.
> 
> Was sad to learn that switching the hot water and steam wands is not really practical either. I think this machine would have benefitted greatly from more beta testing.


Tamper ?

Yes hopefully steam arm will go out with new cam and within the timescale set .


----------



## Obnic

Mrboots2u said:


> Tamper ?
> 
> Yes hopefully steam arm will go out with new cam and within the timescale set .


The manual that came with my machine listed a tamper as included with accessories. I was then advised that Ambient were sourcing a really smart branded one. But since then all has gone quiet. It was also de-listed from accessories.


----------



## PaulL

Ron, were your steam arm concerns resolved?


----------



## Mrboots2u

PaulL said:


> Ron, were your steam arm concerns resolved?


The newer models have a different length and or bend on the steam arm . Ron fitted a LM steam arm to his I think


----------



## ronsil

Can confirm that the new steam arms are fitted to current Machines.

It took 'months' of trial & error with photos & drawings to get it reasonbly correct. The Factory could not understand the requirement to steam large jugs of milk.

Because I wanted to use a Steam Blade I needed to fit a larger LM arm. I'm delighted with the results now.

Number B0001 still rolls on trouble free. ( that is until now)


----------



## DavecUK

Xpenno said:


> So the lever dropping has been discussed on other forums, give it a chemical back flush and that should provide enough traction to keep the lever up.
> 
> My guess is that the noise is coming from the fact that the pump is still on but the group valves are partially closed which would be restricting the flow. I wouldn't run it like this as it could cause damage to the pump or blow off an internal water pipe.
> 
> Spence


It would do neither.....definitely sounds like the pumps normal sounds when under load, but difficult to tell on a Video.


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## Xpenno

DavecUK said:


> It would do neither.....definitely sounds like the pumps normal sounds when under load, but difficult to tell on a Video.


Thanks for the clarification. My post was from December 2014 though


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## Phobic

I know this is an old thread, but does anyone know if the lever cam has been sorted out now on new machines?


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## Obnic

The cam has been sorted out. It works dependably.


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## DavecUK

Phobic said:


> I know this is an old thread, but does anyone know if the lever cam has been sorted out now on new machines?


What do you mean by "sorted out", there was a fix within weeks?


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## Phobic

Thanks Obnic.



DavecUK said:


> What do you mean by "sorted out", there was a fix within weeks?


last post on the Vesuvious forum didn't really have any conclusion to changes on the new machine so just checking it's no longer an issue.

http://vesuvius.freeforums.org/any-new-word-on-the-lever-drop-cam-fix-t72-10.html


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## Obnic

So, after a few months of not changing anything I tried this:

Temp 93.5c (verified the offset so this is target brew temperature); preinfusion for 40s at 2.0 bar; extraction starting 7.4bar tailing off to 6 bar after 20 seconds. 18g coffee into 36g over 35s after preinfusion.

A bean that had been sweet and chocolatey and definitely rich enough to come through milk tasted almost without flavor.

I haven't measured yield. I only made one cup and I'm drinking it.

What just happened?


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## Mrboots2u

Less body ? 40 seconds is extreme . Was it extracting while in pre infusion . I've played at long pre infusion but found most things past 20 seconds went a bit meh. But that was extraction at 8 bar after .

If your gonna pre infuse they long is use a naked and switch between 2 bar and the extraction pressure manually


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## Mrboots2u




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## Obnic

Mrboots2u said:


> Less body ? 40 seconds is extreme . Was it extracting while in pre infusion . I've played at long pre infusion but found most things past 20 seconds went a bit meh. But that was extraction at 8 bar after .
> 
> If your gonna pre infuse they long is use a naked and switch between 2 bar and the extraction pressure manually


Agree 40s is extreme. I had been sat at 20s at 2.0 then open ended time at 6.8 bar. Just wanted to mix it up.

The shot looked about right (fluke since I only pulled one shot after adjusting grind and profile) that is to say, just as the pump switched up from 2 bar I had beads in all the basket holes suggesting saturation, and the flow went nicely central almost immediately.

I was expecting something quite interesting because it looked so pretty but as you say 'meh'.

I wondered if I had accidentally fallen into the trough between the two yield humps.

Bit busy today but I'll see if I can repeat this later.

When you say switch manually, are you changing the profile number on the fly i.e. Profile 1 for preinfusion then switch to profile 2 for extraction? I've not thought to do that before.


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## Mrboots2u

http://[/url]


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## DavecUK

One thing to consider here is that "extraction" is (among other things) affected by fluid amount & contact time. Both are factors, with very long preinfusion you are increasing the contact time, it would be reasonable to expect "over extraction" (whatever we want to call it) during the latter parts of the pressurised portion of the shot.

It's one of the areas that always confused me when reading about the hugely long preinfusion of slayer shots?


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## Obnic

Mrboots2u said:


> http://[/url]


 


There's still time for a second career as a film-maker!

 


Yes - got it, thanks. You have to love this machine - it has a virtual Slayer paddle.


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## Obnic

DavecUK said:


> One thing to consider here is that "extraction" is (among other things) affected by fluid amount & contact time. Both are factors, with very long preinfusion you are increasing the contact time, it would be reasonable to expect "over extraction" (whatever we want to call it) during the latter parts of the pressurised portion of the shot.
> 
> It's one of the areas that always confused me when reading about the hugely long preinfusion of slayer shots?


Yes. I was trying to increase TDS (in a completely unscientific way) just to see. I ground quite a bit finer on the E92 and doubled my preinfusion. In fact, my inspiration for this morning's Tom-foolery was reading something about note slayer last night. By tights it should have been ghastly.

What surprised me was that instead of getting bitter or roasty flavours I got, well nothing. Honestly, in milk it's near tasteless. I wish I'd made a 'spro so I could tell you what flavours were present.

Dave, do you know what the ceiling extraction yield is for the E92 (I know this is bean dependent) but they used to say the robur topped out at around 19-20%? This was before long pre-infusion I think though.


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Slayer uses some kind of flow restriction in the pre-infusion stage though iirc, which the V cannot do, unfortunately. That's the party trick of the Slayer.


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## GlennV

DavecUK said:


> One thing to consider here is that "extraction" is (among other things) affected by fluid amount & contact time. Both are factors, with very long preinfusion you are increasing the contact time, it would be reasonable to expect "over extraction" (whatever we want to call it) during the latter parts of the pressurised portion of the shot.
> 
> It's one of the areas that always confused me when reading about the hugely long preinfusion of slayer shots?


It's only the top of the puck that is wet for the full pre-brew time though. Pre-brew is typically ended at the point when the bottom of the puck just becomes saturated, and water that flows into the top of the puck after this point probably never makes it out of the puck. Basically, I see it as 1) pre-brew: fill the puck with water 2) brew: flush it out into the cup. The flow rate in both parts of the shot is very similar, making for an pretty even extraction from the top and the bottom (although temperature is lower at the bottom).


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## Mrboots2u

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> Slayer uses some kind of flow restriction in the pre-infusion stage though iirc, which the V cannot do, unfortunately. That's the party trick of the Slayer.


My water dbit can go as low as 80 g in 30 seconds with


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## GlennV

Slayer's come from the factory set to 40g/30sec. Importantly, that flow rate is maintained as the pressure at the puck begins to rise.


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## Mrboots2u

and yet ive still never had a wow shot from a slayer... must be unlucky


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## GlennV

Mrboots2u said:


> and yet ive still never had a wow shot from a slayer... must be unlucky


I've never seen the pre-brew being used as intended in a commercial setting.

I now have a gear pump and needle valve/solenoid assembly in my Sage (it was originally in my old gaggia classic) and I wouldn't be without it.


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## Mrboots2u

GlennV said:


> I've never seen the pre-brew being used as intended in a commercial setting.
> 
> I now have a gear pump and needle valve/solenoid assembly in my Sage (it was originally in my old gaggia classic) and I wouldn't be without it.


I suspect a cheaper solution than 6-8k


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## GlennV

a bit less than 1k as it happens.


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## DavecUK

GlennV said:


> Slayer's come from the factory set to 40g/30sec. Importantly, that flow rate is maintained as the pressure at the puck begins to rise.


That statement doesn't make sense...not scientifically.


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## GlennV

OK, approximately maintained then. If the pump is set to 9 bar and the pressure at the puck has risen to 2 bar then the flow rate will have dropped from 40ml/30s to 35ml/30s. For the single group one, with a gear pump, the decrease is slightly less.


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## DavecUK

GlennV said:


> OK, approximately maintained then. If the pump is set to 9 bar and the pressure at the puck has risen to 2 bar then the flow rate will have dropped from 40ml/30s to 35ml/30s. For the single group one, with a gear pump, the decrease is slightly less.


Well..no, not even approximately maintained, but I don't want to start a war with the swivel eyed Slayer fanatics world wide. They paid a lot of money for their machines and are going to damm well love them...regardless of what a recalcitrant old git like me says.


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## GlennV

I think most people would say that 35 and 40 are approximately the same in this context.


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## GlennV

Maybe a graph will help (I prepared this one for a similar discussion on HB)? The essential idea is that both the puck and the machine impose relationships between pressure and flow, with the actual pressure and flow at any time being determined by where these characteristics intersect. The green line represents a nominal, idealised puck. The slope of this curve varies during the extraction, and it probably shouldn't be straight - in fact there is some evidence that at high pressures the flow rate can start decreasing. The details don't matter for this discussion though - the key point is that there is some relationship. The curved lines, corresponding to machines with different pump pressure and flow restriction, are easier to characterise. The flow rate through an orifice (be it group jet or needle valve) is proportional to the square root of the pressure drop across it. The end points of each of the curved lines are determined by the flow rate without a portafilter in place (intersection with y axis) and the pressure with a blind filter (intersection with x axis). The curve in between is entirely determined by these two points and the square root relationship (in fact, if you were to plot the square of flow rate against pressure instead then these curves would become straight lines). The intersection points, ie the actual flow and pressure you'd get for that machine setting and puck, are indicated by the circles. The approximate orifice sizes to which each of the curves correspond is given in the legend. A Slayer with the paddle in the pre-brew position behaves like the purple curve. Pressure profiling on the Vesuvius, and other machines which control the pressure before the group jet, corresponds to moving between the other curves (and intermediate ones). The Strada EP is very different, as it controls pressure at the puck itself.


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