# AP long steep = great coffee v 60 slow drawdown = over extracted bitterness...Why?



## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Today I brewed an @MWJB *V60 recipe* using dutch O2 white paper filters,13.5g Pact Finca la Esperanza, 225ml tap water from a Brita filter jug and a feldgrind setting of 2+5. i followed the recipe using 6 x 35g pours after a 15g/30 sec bloom. The last pour was at 2:10 and the final drawdown was 4:10 - the recipe indicated an average drawdown of 3:10 +/- 15 secs. The result was bitter, astringent and not worth drinking.

I then used the same recipe and timings but with a feldgrind setting of 3+5 and achieved a drawdown of 3:35. While the coffee was sweeter, less bitter, not astringent it also had a thin mouthfeel. It was definitely drinkable though by no means great.

Finally, I used 13.5g of the same coffee, ground at 1+6 on the feldgrind, brewed using 225ml of water just off the boil using an inverted aeropress. Quick NSEW stir at the start then left for 10 minutes before flipping and plunging. Result, sweet, tasty, good mouthfeel, balanced coffee.

My question is, why does a long steep time, even 20 minutes, work for aeropress and results in a rich balanced cup but a slow drawdown on V60, say 4:10 on 225ml results in an over extracted, bitter, astringent and borderline undrinkable cup? And do the dutch V60 papers make such a big difference to the drawdown time?

Thanks in advance for the collective wisdom of the forum


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## caffeinatedtrombonist (Oct 1, 2016)

I had very much the same musings this morning's v60 after coming back from a week with only an aeropress to hand and really enjoying long long steeps. I'll definitely be following this thread


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Immersion (Aeropress) is a gentler, less aggressive extraction method as there is no flow during the brew, there's only a little flow of coffee (not water) through the bed when you separate the beverage from the grounds. This only adds about a tenth of the overall extraction, whereas the flow in the V60 is all of the extraction. To get the same strength with Aeropress, as a V60, takes about 10 times longer.

So a 20min Aeropress extraction might still be in the normal range of a good extraction, the 4:00+ V60 will likely be over-extracted.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks @MWJB So would fewer pours or even an all-in-one pour make more sense for the V60 if the Dutch papers make such a big difference to drawdown. Or is it just a case of going super coarse as I did on the second brew and maybe increasing the coffee ratio?


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks @MWJB So would fewer pours or even an all-in-one pour make more sense for the V60 if the Dutch papers make such a big difference to drawdown. Or is it just a case of going super coarse as I did on the second brew and maybe increasing the coffee ratio?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

salty said:


> Thanks @MWJB So would fewer pours or even an all-in-one pour make more sense for the V60 if the Dutch papers make such a big difference to drawdown. Or is it just a case of going super coarse as I did on the second brew and maybe increasing the coffee ratio?


If you go very coarse you might get less mouthfeel at the same strength, because of fewer tiny particles getting into the brew. Personally, I don't mind less mouthfeel if the strength (%TDS) is there, so I wouldn't use more coffee, but sure try it. I'd go coarser on the grind, or switch back to the Japanese papers at around 2+6.

I didn't get good & consistent results with all-in-one pours with V60.

At the moment I'm brewing both AP & V60 (with Japanese papers) at 2+6, V60 method as you describe above, Aeropress as follows:

12g dose

220g boiling water straight in (I use a compact kettle & weigh the water into it before boiling, allowing for evaporation etc.) & fit the plunger in just enough to stop flow.

You get ~30g of watery drip through, discard this & place AP on a new cup.

2:00 after filling, pull out the plunger & let it drain under gravity [EDIT - break any crust at this point]. I'm finding the first minute drains at ~1g/sec.

At 4:30 total time replace the plunger & press slowly until you see dry bed in the AP, until about 5:00.

You should get ~155g of coffee about 1.28%TDS in the cup.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Thanks @MWJB - all makes sense, much appreciated. I'll give it a go tomorrow.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

@MWJB I like it  Done 2 brews so far both with Crankhouse Grand Tour. Really good results which brought out the fruitiness. I guess the process is a bit like a clever dripper?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sure, I guess a bit like a Clever, except I don't know how easy it would be to minimise drip through when you add all the water in one go & the Clever can hold quite a bit of liquid under filter paper. If you just bloomed the Clever with a small amount the drip through would be much stronger than the watery discard in this AP method (& probably still remain trapped in the brewer until draw down), so I'm not sure you could exactly replicate it because the dose in the AP presents so much more resistance to the brew water?

I did try keeping the drip through, but it seemed to make the overall cup much more sour.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I did try keeping the drip through, but it seemed to make the overall cup much more sour.


I just drank the drip through like a shot while I was waiting!


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Was the V60 in your first post your first use of the dutch papers? Lot's of people have been caught out thinking that they are the same as the japanese.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Not my first but since I bought this packet of filters I've struggled to get tasty brews. That's when I discovered the threads about the Dutch filters being slower and sure enough, that's what I'd replaced the last packet with.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I prefer the Dutch papers but I use them in a Biarro Altoair brewer rather than a hario V60 cone so not sure how that effects the brew.

I'd suggest that you cut down the number of pours to reduce the brew time a bit. Go a bit coarser as well and maybe try reducing the coffee dose to 12.75/12.80. So for a 225g brew after bloom pour up to 75 then add 3 times 50 at 30 sec intervals. Pour as gently as you can to avoid kicking up too much silt which can clog the paper and extend the brew time.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

I'll give it a go, thanks. Just ordered some new filters too


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Aeropress as follows:
> 
> 12g dose
> 
> ...


Drinking this now, very nice!


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