# No whacking - a big step forward



## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

I've had a good weekend for coffee. On Saturday, I would estimate I pulled about 20-30 shots, sipping some, tipping most. I've been determined to improve my extractions. I have an HG One and a Cremina so there's really no excuse, and for the first time I feel like all my kit is working exactly how it should, so you can only blame the barista.

Anyway, I spent my Saturday trying to work out whether I could grind finer and tamp lighter. As you may imagine, this has ended up with lots of those choked shots, which are a pain and take an age to get the machine back on its feet (if you don't want to redecorate). As I was going through this pain, I was thinking about the conventional wisdom, which says you shouldn't tap the basket. But I need to tap the basket, thought I, because I need to settle the grinds so I can tamp. NOT TRUE. The only reason I needed to tap the basket to settle the grinds was because of the high dose. If you reduce the dose, then the grinds will fit easily into the basket without tapping. EUREKA.

So I've reduced my dose from 16.5g down to 15g in the MCAL triple basket. I've started using the HG One blind tumbler, because I don't need a funnel any more. I've stopped tapping, because the grinds are only a tiny bit above the lip of the basket before tamping. I've started using the height of the edge of the tamper against the basket lip to judge how even the tamp is, which I couldn't do before when the basket was fuller.

I might be getting ahead of myself here, but I've pulled 4 shots this morning, and they were all relatively text-book, ring of droplets during the active pre-infuse, followed by a central tiger stripe during the pull itself. I also have that elusive sweet taste on my tongue, do you know what I'm talking about?

Assuming I've cracked it, this has taken me 2.5 years. Don't even get me started on frothed milk and latte art!


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## aFiercePancake (Dec 8, 2013)

It's nice to finally have a setup that works, isn't it?









I have been learning how to get the most from my Olympia Club and am discovering what you describe, more or less. Nice, tight grind with lower doses seems to suit it well.

The fun about owning lever machines is that one gets to play with every variable. Of course, that is also the annoying thing about using lever machines...


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Very true!

I tried upping the dose gradually but really it looks like 15g is the best, at least in terms of a picture-perfect extraction. The liquid itself seems a little less thick and gloopy to me, which is a shame. Wondering how I might find a half way house.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Several days on, and yes I can consistently get a picture perfect extraction at 15g. I assume this means my distribution is now pretty good, but it goes wrong when I increase the dose. The liquid is runnier than it was when I was dosing more, even if I tighten up the grind.

Does anyone have any sensible suggestions for how I might get a more gloopy espresso out of this without upping the dose?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

If you are achieving the sweetness you desire why even think about gloopy, it may be that a change of beans will give more mouthfeel, crema etc.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Thanks CC, you may well be right. I just tried some Italian Job, and no one could complain about the thickness of that shot. When something changes, it can take quite a while to fully realise the ramifications of that change.

At the moment, I am certain that the visual indicators are good, but less certain that I haven't traded off aspects I used to like from higher doses. Sweetness... well it's not always better. I did have a very good day on Saturday/Sunday but am doing less well today, even if the extractions look perfect.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Pretty doesnt always mean a tasty extraction

IJ has robusta in it , will deliver a big crema and you are possibly reading that as a bigger mouthfeel...


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Cleaned and lubed the machine on Friday night, and the behaviour changed completely. As I was so far off track, I took the opportunity to also experiment with temperature too. Now I know what sour means, having tried lowering my pressure to 0.65 bars. I also learned what bitter can be, taking the pressure up to 1.1 bars. I've gone back to a slightly increased pressure than before, now I'm at 0.8-0.9 bars.

Then I tried to deal with the extraction, which had been picture perfect at 15g. No longer! 15g doesn't work for me any more. Got to 16.5g and the extraction is back to picture perfect, AND I'm getting the thickness of shot I had before.

So it's been another good weekend for learning about this bizarre hobby.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Still learning here, and maybe no one is interested, but this info would have helped me, so I'm posting it in case other Cremina users might find it useful.

As I mentioned above, to get the gloopy shots, I *thought* I needed a high dose... around 16.5g in the Elektra double basket. However, I also discovered that the evenness of extraction is definitely affected by the weight of ground coffee in the basket.

My old routine consisted of raising the lever, then pushing through the water until I saw the first drops on the bottom of the basket, then raising it again.  I've abandoned that now in favour of a single stroke from top to bottom, and I am finding that the gloopiness is there whatever the weight of the coffee (YAY).

So new routine....

* Determine the amount of coffee by weight which gives an even extraction. This varies by the bean and has been between 14.5g and 16.5g for me in the Elektra double basket.

* Raise lever all the way to the top and wait 1 second only. Gently lower lever (2 finger pressure) until I feel slight resistance as water pushes into puck. Don't attempt to push any further, but do keep that pressure constant.

* Active preinfuse, wait for about 3-4 seconds

* Continue the downward stroke at a speed which will produce the shot in another 30-40 seconds

OK so the shot volume is slightly reduced, but this method is consistently gloopy and seems like the best of all worlds to me. The real key is that very first stage, which is determining the right dose for an even extraction.

As I say, I am posting these steps only because this is what works for me, and if I'd had access to this exact information when learning, the whole process would have been much quicker. If anyone finds this useful, I'd love to hear about it!


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

What are your output weights? Conical grinders tend to produce over and under extraction due to the particle shapes and size distribution, so this does make things more difficult, especially if you want to pull longer shots.

JP


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Currently about 15g in and 23g out. With the previous method, I was getting about 28g out.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

I don't know if anyone is interested, but compared with my previous channelling issues, this is what a shot looks like now. I was trying out Java Jampit and this was a bit too fine a grind, so a bit too much effort to push the shot through, and a bit too long on the extraction. Still tasted amazing though.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

wintoid said:


> Currently about 15g in and 23g out. With the previous method, I was getting about 28g out.


That's very short. Have you tried pulling shots with 50% and lower brew ratios?

JP


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Being a manual lever, the only way to increase the output weight is to pull twice (or more). As I am trying to avoid that, I would have to go to 11g in for 23g out, which just feels wrong. That said, I am no expert, and if you think it might give me a good result, I will try it. It would help my understanding if you could explain why you think 50% is something to aim for.

Simon


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

wintoid said:


> Being a manual lever, the only way to increase the output weight is to pull twice (or more). As I am trying to avoid that, I would have to go to 11g in for 23g out, which just feels wrong. That said, I am no expert, and if you think it might give me a good result, I will try it. It would help my understanding if you could explain why you think 50% is something to aim for.
> 
> Simon


It depends on your taste, obviously, but longer shots, when done correctly, have the potential for more complexity. I'm more interested in producing coffees that have a range of balanced flavours than I am in producing something short and sweet but rather one dimensional.

This said, I'm not familiar with your machine, and it sounds like it would be difficult to work at 50% and lower brew ratios.

JP


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## Bigpikle (Oct 14, 2014)

Interesting thread and something I'm going to also experiment with. I have a Pavoni so a little different but still a manual lever obviously.

What works every time on my Gaggia is carnage half the time on the LPE so I need to try and really nail down my process.

Interesting comments on the Rave IJ as I found that much easier and more consistent in the lever than the current DSOL beans (whatever they may be?) so maybe the Robusta is just easier to work with without as much finesse? Ummmm....


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

I was having a look here http://www.home-barista.com/tips/brewing-ratios-for-espresso-beverages-t2402.html and to me it looks like 15g in 23g out puts me into the double ristretto range, but only just as my brew ratio is about 65%. So I don't think I'm a million miles away from normal.

  

I haven't had time to pull a shot today... got home late from work... but perhaps at the weekend I'll have a play with 50% and see if it tickles my fancy.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Your gonna have to go pretty fine with that brew ratio otherwise your in danger of under extracting ...but that's the difficulty with double ristrettos , it's hard to hit a 19 plus % extraction, hit a 18% one and it can appear bitter under 18 and a bit tart . You might like that edge that under extraction brings with big mouthfeel , this isn't a criticism btw just a observation ...and all depends on the roast your using what it comes out like or if it's achievable

The right grind and the right weight out say 15 Into 26-27 might push you into a sweeter spot extraction wise , but you might loose a tad of mouthfeel


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm also starting to work my Cremina (don't mean that in a pervy way ) and I'm not sure on the technique used. I've also dropped the double-triple pull as I thought it adds more water which is smth I'd like to avoid for now. The only thing I'm not sure about is how hard to pull the lever, some vids say a light pull is all you need, but surely that will be altogether different from say a tight pull? or are we ignoring puck pressures at all on levers? I always assumed how hard you pull changes the pressure on the puck which in effect saturates differently etc. and that is an overall level below which you shouldn't go, or am I bonkers?

T.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

I am not sure there's an absolute truth. In some ways, the problem with the Cremina is that there are so many different ways to do it. The one thing that's hard to vary is shot volume.

I've read lots of people who say the Cremina can take a coarser grind. Personally, I grind fine, which gives a pull that requires a bit of effort... slightly firmer than knife through butter... because this seems to give the gloopy shots I prefer, often in way more than 30 seconds. Whenever I've tried coarser and faster/lighter pulls, I've not enjoyed the end result, but then perhaps I haven't experimented enough









How tight a pull have you been using so far?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Yeah knife through butter, nothing like being specific, what if I use super soft butter?









I've been pulling really hard, up to the point of tipping the machine (which isn't hard as it's not super heavy) which apparently is too hard. I'll give preinfusion a go (after coffeechap's suggestion) and report back.

T.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

What if the knife is super sharp, or is hot!


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Exactly it's a bit like talking grind sizes 'coarse sand', 'fine salt' etc. or the US method of bake dosing using cups (which was probably fine when everyone had similar sized cups).

I might even post a vid if I'm bored enough

T.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Just tried a long 10sec preinfusion, I went a bit finer on the grind thinking the shot would be faster. Wrong, it pulled very slowly, so I went 5 'clicks' coarser, tried it again, 10sec preinfusion. Now this was a setting which normally gives good shots, pulls just right with a nice firm pull on the lever, this time it choked it. Seems that the 0.7bar preinfusion pushes fines down and slows everything down which is a bit weird compared to my previous experiences with preinfusion.

T.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Bah!







OK perhaps knife through butter doesn't make much sense. I'm not able to measure the actual force I use, so we're stuck with vague descriptions. Certainly, if I'm tipping the machine, I back off the grind or the dose a little, so not as hard a pull as that.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I've heard that expression before (coffeechap and other places) so no worries it would be good to have a pressure gauge on the group, that would allow to check what pressure you are generating with the lever.

Yeah tipping is a no no, I'll back off a bit and see what results I get in the cup. Currently I seem to be getting around 8% TDS on pretty much every shot, which is a bit low. The preinfused one pulled like a dream on a naked PF (well maybe apart from the amount of force required) but it tasted awfully underextracted (it was 7.8% TDS and around 31g total beverage, 15g dose).

T.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

OK again with the wishiwashiness. I suppose what I mean is that it's goldilocks

Too loose - pushing the lever down you don't get the feeling that if you "hold it in position and wait" it will continue to push through, it just keeps going down and doesn't fight back

Too tight - pushing the lever down the machine feels under too much pressure and/or tips

Just right - there's a springiness to the pull. If you released pressure on the lever, it would bounce back up a bit. If you apply pressure and then hold the lever in a fixed position, gradually the springiness would deplete, and eventually letting go of the lever it wouldn't bounce back up.

Anyway, knife through butter or whatever, in that middle zone you get this wonderful feeling of connectedness with the machine. Or I think so anyway.

Believe it or not, I have a scientific approach to most things, but without tools to measure this I'm hamstrung


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Quick update, backed off on the grind a bit and I think I'm getting what you're saying on the springiness of the shot, there's resistance, but it moves forward under a bit of pressure.

Also had to up the dose from 15g to 16g as I couldn't really get passed 8% TDS, now I'm closer to 8.8-9% which for 16g is pretty much were it should be.

One thing which sometimes annoys me is big bubbles in the stream from the NPF, do you get that as well? usually it's a single big one in the middle which pops half way through.

T.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

I'm not measuring TDS so I don't know about that, but I find that 15g of Jampit (which I won't be buying again) is about the same size (volume of grounds) as 16g of Hasbean/Rave, so I'm moving more towards trying to get the volume of ground coffee right. Actually, to be honest I'm trying to keep the distance from the top of the compacted tamped puck to the top of the basket the same. That seems to give me the same results across different beans.

In general, I don't have a problem with bubbles at all.

As an aside, my god it takes a long time to get good at this, doesn't it? When I've hit the spot, I can drink that espresso and not miss the milk. I am getting closer to doing this consistently, but still tending to drink it as a cortado/piccolo. Don't even TALK to me about steaming with the original steam wand.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I don't often drink shots straight up (not fun having reflux), I do mix them with boiled water as I find it's easier to digest and you can still easily taste the changes in the brew process. It's a good idea to keep the shower screen space the same and I know what you mean with dose vs. volume.

I need to do a video of the bubble problem, I'm sure I've seen it discussed somewhere just can't find the thread / forum and google images throws up some very dodgy sites (naked, big, bubble are apparently NSFW)









The original steam wand is workable, I do have a v2 and a v3 Silvia wand, both are fit-able, with the v2 you just slap it on (although mine drips due to the hard oring inside the valve and because of the length of the wand and the angle it drips outside of the drip tray so I took it off), the v3 needs an adapter which can take a spring and a brass ball 'gasket' and I'm guessing you need to machine one to get it to fit (I do have an off the shelf adapter but it won't take the spring thingy).

T.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

dsc said:


> google images throws up some very dodgy sites (naked, big, bubble are apparently NSFW)


Hahaha now that IS funny


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I blame google, it changes 'espresso naked pf big bubble' to 'espresso naked of big bubble' which apparently is more dodgy for some reason Try it yourself

T.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Hmm, I seem to have lost my mojo. I am thinking that I've had a run of good luck with extractions, and perhaps that's partly down to the beans. I seem to be back to getting channelling again. Nearing the stage where I'm wondering if I should shell out for training.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Try different beans, have you gone down the 'finer and finer' route?

T.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

wintoid said:


> Hmm, I seem to have lost my mojo. I am thinking that I've had a run of good luck with extractions.


Lost your mojo ?

Not telling you how to suck eggs , and if I am I apologise, but this Post maybe useful to those who have lost thier mojo .

So easy to fall in the trap of changing all the variables at the same time , keep many of things consistant and only change one of the variables at once ,

Whatever basket you have decided to use as your weapon of choice will already roughly determine your dose weight

Simple stopwatch is going to take care of the time 25-30 seconds seems an agreeded Middle ground .

tamping , a patient non rushed but uncomplicated method seems to be the key with consistency/repeatability the most important part of this .

I have fallen into the trap of changing everything at once and it's taken ages to realise and go back to a simple as possible method .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

wintoid said:


> Hmm, I seem to have lost my mojo. I am thinking that I've had a run of good luck with extractions, and perhaps that's partly down to the beans. I seem to be back to getting channelling again. Nearing the stage where I'm wondering if I should shell out for training.


What do the drink taste like though under extracted ?


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

The dose seems to need to be different for different beans.

At the moment, I can get a really consistent looking pour using Coffee Compass beans at 14g. When I try Hasbean, I need more, perhaps 15 or 16g, and I struggle to get a pour without channelling. Rave is somewhere in the middle. Yes, I stocked up on loads of beans for Xmas.

I could say I'm happy with the Coffee Compass beans, especially in milk. It just works. I am frustrated that I am struggling with the Hasbean and Rave beans.

I've made a change to the brew temperature for the first time in several months, so we'll see where that leads. Would you expect brew temperature to affect channelling?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Any improvements since last week?

I've had some issues which turned out to simply be older beans, still though can't really get the sweetness I was getting with ristretto-like shots at the very beginning.

With the original basket I dose 15-16g before it hits the shower screen, light tamp, although I'm not so sure on the amount of pressure applied. I know people say moderate pressure is required, but surely if it doesn't get too hard to push water through the puck, then you are no where near 9bar on top of the puck, or am I mad?

T.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Question Is 9 bar optimal though? Not sure of all the pressures on all different spring levers are at 9 bar...


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I assumed it is generally on all espresso machines or at least close to (ignoring the start and stop of the shot when you can have different profiles, but normally you do reach 9 bar somewhere along the line).

I was toying with the idea of having a pressure gauge somewhere in the group, but I'd have to drill and tap the group to get anything installed.

T.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Yeah a gauge in the group would be superb. With leverage and what have you, I have no idea how much pressure I'm generating.

Lots of progress, some backwards steps, some communication with the HG One boys (who say my burrs are not yet seasoned enough, with 6 kilos through them and 4 boxes of minute rice). I'm following advice and going for even smaller doses at the moment, and some serious stirring in a paper cup with the glass rod.

Seems like a lot of faff, but if I end up getting consistent shots, I'll stick with it.

Unfortunately, when you can only make 3 shots per day or so, it's slow progress, so nothing definitive to report yet. I'll keep on trying









Could you drill and tap a portafilter, just so you could "learn" how much pressure equates to 9 bars?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

On the Cremina I find ristrettos better than normal shots, much sweeter and overall tastier. I hear you when you say a few shots a day is not enough for fast progress.

You could make a Scace like device and simulate a puck to see what resistance is what pressure roughly.

T.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm currently drinking a shot which I guess would be treated as choked by old-school lever users (this is based on the knife through butter comparison) but having pulled this into a cup full of hot water it resulted in a rather beautiful americano, maybe the temp was a bit low, but other than that there's no bitterness whatsoever. If I try pull shots with less resistance I get a very pronounced bitterness in the cup, so go figure.

T.


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Hmm...

Bitter vs sour...

My understanding (which could easily be flawed, 2 years in but I'm a total beginner) is that bitter equates to overextracted. A slow shot which took a long time to squeeze out of the Cremina should surely be more extracted than a faster shot. If your slow shot tastes good, then I would have expected your faster shots to be sour, not bitter. Is it possible it was sourness you were tasting?

For my part, I've been struggling with the Hasbean stuff for a while, and have realised that I've been making assumptions. I haven't been weighing my output. I had assumed that my machine seemed to be producing about 24g of output per pull, and that this wouldn't change. In fact, I weighed my output at the weekend, and I am producing much more... like 38g. So this means my brew ratios are up the spout (so to speak). I've been experimenting with 12g in the basket, so I've been beyond a 1:3 brew ratio. The next shot I pulled after this discovery, I went for 12g and pulled the cup away at 24g output, and it seems much better.

More learning and practising required, but it's such sllllloooooow progress.


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