# Single versus double shot



## ColinA (Jan 20, 2018)

I have an Ascaso Dream espresso machine and a Rancillio grinder and have been brewing espresso for two years. I buy fresh roasted beans from London. For a single shot I use the single filter basket with the grinder set to 4 or 5. Whilst the results are OK I rarely get the perfect shot and find that the level of coffee in the basket is absolutely critical to the result. I have just discovered that if I make a double espresso using the larger basket and grinder set to 8 I get the perfect shot every time and far superior to the single.

I really don't want to waste a shot every brew. Any suggestions on how to improve the single shot brewing?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Singles are a pain , especially if you do not have a decent seized single tamper ? Do you have a tamper.

Plus there isnt enough info to judge here.

Pressurised or non pressurised basket ?

Dose for the single basket is ? How much espresso does it make ? ( all in grams )

Same for double basket . How long are each of the shots taking


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## ColinA (Jan 20, 2018)

I have a heavy stainless steel tamper. I grind the beans to produce a 20 to 25 second shot to one third fill a small espresso cup which is a bit more than we get in Italy. I have no way of weighing the ground beans; the Rancillio doesn't have a fixed dose dispenser so I gently press the ground coffee level to the top of the basket then tamp down firmly.

Dont know what a "pressurised basket" is, it's a fairly standard machine with an instant boiler and temperature indicator which works very well.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Double espresso is a 'single' shot these days don't you think Colin? ;-)


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## ColinA (Jan 20, 2018)

I guess it's a double then, as I suspected. Have to watch the blood pressure!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ha ha me too - one cup of caf per day max unfortunately


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

What about blending 50:50 decaf with whatever your favourite coffee is, mixing the beans before loading the hopper? Possibly sacrilege with some delicate SO, but depending on what you normally drink (ie suppose it was a medium roast blend) it might be a good way to limit caffeine without having to make do with teeny tiny 'spoonful*' shots and all the hassle of trying to get a decent shot from the notorious single baskets.

* at a typical 1:2 ratio, a traditional 7g dose would give you 14g espresso, which is less than a British Standard Mouthful.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ColinA said:


> I have a heavy stainless steel tamper. I grind the beans to produce a 20 to 25 second shot to one third fill a small espresso cup which is a bit more than we get in Italy. I have no way of weighing the ground beans; the Rancillio doesn't have a fixed dose dispenser so I gently press the ground coffee level to the top of the basket then tamp down firmly.
> 
> Dont know what a "pressurised basket" is, it's a fairly standard machine with an instant boiler and temperature indicator which works very well.


Hi,

It's easy to tell if you're usong standard (single wall) or pressurised baskets. Look at the base of the basket. A standard unpressurised one will have multiple holes where a pressurised (double wall) basket will only have one so an 'artificial crema' is created.

Get yourself some scales that weigh to 0.1g & go high enough for a loaded portafilter. I use cheap Amir 3000/0.1g ones as they're shallow enough to fit under my cup to weigh the output too. Input weight should be somewhere in the region of 7g for a single & 14g for a double if using the baskets that came with the machine. Aim for twice as much output to begin with (a 1:2 ratio) though that can be adjusted to taste once you can get repeatability.

It's quite possible you'll find the perfect grind is between steps & it looks like that may be the case for your single basket. Looks like there are a couple 'stepless mods' for the rocky if you google for them (one of them is reversible too) which would give you infinite adjustability.

Singles are notouriously finicky bit with careful prep & practice it's possible to get repeatable results.



kennyboy993 said:


> Double espresso is a 'single' shot these days don't you think Colin? ;-)


That depends on if it's being drunk as a straight espresso or being used to make a milky drink.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> Double espresso is a 'single' shot these days don't you think Colin? ;-)


Not really, a double dose will have twice the caffeine of a single dose, irrespective of drink size. Whilst this may not be an issue for a lot of people, it doesn't really make sense to suggest people with sensitivity to caffeine should consume twice as much of it in every drink.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I don't think this thread should become about Colin's caffeine intake - it's already been stated doubles are sometimes made..... commenting on caffeine sensitivity is jumping to conclusions.

Colin if MWJB assumptions are correct then i apologise - of course I'd rather you find a repeatable way of making a single ;-)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

kennyboy993 said:


> I don't think this thread should become about Colin's caffeine intake - it's already been stated doubles are sometimes made..... commenting on caffeine sensitivity is jumping to conclusions.
> 
> Colin if MWJB assumptions are correct then i apologise - of course I'd rather you find a repeatable way of making a single ;-)


 @ColinA already said that he can make superior tasting doubles, but doesn't drink the whole thing in the hope of controlling his blood pressure.

Colin, the method for dialling in singles is the same for doubles (as per @Mrboots2u post), but you might find the shots thinner in body, you might also have to pull them at a longer ratio/weaker (compared to the double) to get the flavour balanced (this might not be an issue if drinking shots straight).


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## ColinA (Jan 20, 2018)

Thanks for all the comments. I drink straight espresso - no milk, no sugar. A double is just too much coffee for me and, yes, not good for my blood pressure which is borderline high.

I have been making the single shot for two years and another two years before that with a Gaggia and despite trying many different beans, grinds, coffee quantity, tamps etc. nothing compares to the double so I am going to stick with the double for now and waste half the coffee. Extravagant but ....


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I use the single on a Sage machine a lot. Fill level is critical and you will need to control the weigh of grinds. One way of doing that is to weigh beans into the grinder. It's easy to do but the accuracy of what comes out will probably depend on the grinder. Scales needn't be expensive. A search on here will give you some suggestions usually off Amazon. If the grinder is cleaned you may find that several shots of beans need to go through it before the weight out remains the same.

Fill level is tricky in some ways. The grinds need to be able to expand. Too much room for that leaves a lot more scope for muddy pucks. What I would do on that score is start low and increase until a slight impression of the shower screen appearers on the puck or no signs and at least a fairly dry puck. On a single you could be talking of a 0.2g change making difference especially if the weight goes lower for some reason. Higher isn't so bad but there comes a point where the grinds can't expand enough.

Some one might mention getting an IMS competition basket called The Single. On a Fracino machine I found their own single to be better in several respects. For one it would hold the correct quantity of grinds and stood more variation.

Another option could be a 12g basket which I believe you can get for your machine. I think that they may also do pressurised baskets - not that these will help. What they tend to do is make a coarser grind behave more like a finer one as the basket controls the flow rate. Make the grind finer though and the coffee starts taking over. I've played with that on a single basket. It might help weaken / change the taste of a double. Can't see much point on a single in my case but it does even out flow rates. I drink long blacks and am always chasing strength in the Sage single. It only works out using strong beans.

I have also tried the Sage double. Results way too strong and or a different taste depending on what I do. I've invented a new coffee taste that I call coffee.It's pretty typical of all beans I have used. I tend to find the double gives a lot more of that and any tastes that should be associated with the bean tend to get masked.







I have another one for weak brews - water. Much to my amazement water does have an after taste.

Ratio's sometimes get mentioned on here. The Sage baskets differ a bit from the usual. The single is a notional 10 and the double 18. Reality tends to be less - usually about 9.3g in the single. Best ratio's range between 1 to 3 and 1 to 4 in the single. Shot time about 25sec but that probably wont relate to other makes of machine. On the other hand that is currently. Previously I have used higher ratio's but haven't bothered measuring as I just adjust for taste. A long black shot gets mixed with so much water that volume variations in the shot don't matter that much. I just know that they have been pretty consistent as I use glass mugs and the handle serves as a marker.

Some people check basket fill height with a coin. Tamp, place the coin on it and fit into the grouphead. If the coin leaves an impression in the grinds too much coffee.







Leaves the question of which coin. Pass, a pound is a bit thicker than a 10p. I'v no need to try that as Sage produce a tool that sets it rather precisely but would guess that either of those coins might do it and there are others.

One other point that might matter is heat up time. Someone could leave the portafilter in Sage's smaller machines for a very long time and it wouldn't heat up. I noticed a problem by tasting each of 3 drinks made on the trot. Strength and taste changed on each one. I get round it running a shot through an empty pressurised basket. Then fit the one I want to use. Even just flushing with that basket helps.

One thing I would like to know about your Ascaso is how long it takes for the group head to get too hot to touch.







One of their other machines interests me.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Single baskets need a tamper that will fit a single basket. I suspect the OP's tamper isnt a good for fit for a single.

Get some scales , whether its a single or a double , understanding the variables that make your tasty drink is key.

Attaining good espresso and repeating it , is down to understanding the relationship between the amount of coffee used and the amount of water used .


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

And possibly a quality de-caff, sure there will be plenty of suggestions along in a minute @dfk41 recently had a spell on the de-caff so may be able to advise what worked and not?

John


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Single baskets need a tamper that will fit a single basket. I suspect the OP's tamper isnt a good for fit for a single.
> 
> Get some scales to with your dose with .


As far as I am aware all of their machines are e61 so the single will take a normal e61 tamper. I have no problem at all using that size of tamper on my Fracino single even the 6g one.

Ascaso?

http://www.ascaso.com/div-espresso-coffee-machines-grinders/dream-2.html

In principle a number of different baskets could be used eg

http://www.imsfiltri.com/risultati-ricerca/?competition=0&post_type=i-filtri&comp=ascaso&type=0&Capienza=0&submit=Search&lang=en

I assume the Dream is the same as the others as like Fracino they usually mention the use of standard parts.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> As far as I am aware all of their machines are e61 so the single will take a normal e61 tamper. I have no problem at all using that size of tamper on my Fracino single even the 6g one.
> 
> Ascaso?
> 
> ...


The info I found online stated a 57mm basket on the ascasso dream. A 58mm basket designed for a E61 grouphead may fit but then again it could conceivably be a little too large.

Also, while the standard tamper will fit in my LM Strada single it won't compress the grinds unless I severely overload it due to the shape. My 41mm tamper on the other hand fits perfectly.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> The info I found online stated a 57mm basket on the ascasso dream. A 58mm basket designed for a E61 grouphead may fit but then again it could conceivably be a little too large.
> 
> Also, while the standard tamper will fit in my LM Strada single it won't compress the grinds unless I severely overload it due to the shape. My 41mm tamper on the other hand fits perfectly.


Yes looking deeper that could be correct. There seems to have been a size change on the baskets at some point and they use 57 and 58mm baskets. It might be worth the OP measuring the tamper that may have come with the machine. If you look at this page it shows 2 sizes. The tamper they show on another page could be double ended. I've only used 8g in the Fracino and more in one 7g that is reckoned to hold 7-9g. They don't seem to offer a double ended tamper but I have seen mention of a plastic one that may be. If anyone is really interested I could load up the 6 with 6g and see what happens but I'd guess a Fracino owner could answer more fully. It's a 2nd machine for me and not used much.

http://www.ascaso.com/div-espresso-coffee-machines-grinders/dream-4.html

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'll have to tell Fracino off. As I mentioned it and some might read I just wasted 6g of bean to try the 6g basket. 5.9g came out. Also then added another 5 beans which added 0.7g. It wont tamp correctly as the tamper is resting on the sides. However it was the cheapest calibrated 58mm one I could find and the bottom edge is sharp. It measures 58.06mm dia. That wouldn't need reducing much to fully tamp. Maybe their tamper has a chamfered edge. I'd be surprised if it needed a 41mm one.

The main thing I did with the machine is try to match 9.3g ground to suite my BE in a Fracino basket. Proved to be a bit too much for the 7-9 and weaker due to different extraction methods. It needed a low fill in a 12g really to get something similar.

John

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