# Help needed on recipe adjustment



## GazRef (Dec 30, 2019)

Tools: got a vibration pump vivi flow rate of 230ml/30sec. niche & 18g baskets. My dist and tamp is very consistent.

Bean: https://www.northstarroast.com/product/dark-arches/ Chocolate, nuts and tangerine.

Suggested recipe: 18g in> 38g out 28 seconds. 1:2.11

1st attempt: Used suggested recipe, end result espresso drying and not great. Dryness being the take away guessed this was over right? Has to be grind then

2nd: Decided to grind coarser and pull quicker. iirc 24 sec same ratio. Worse. Sip then sink shot. Under right? Has to be ratio

3rd: So the finer grind was drying and over so going back that way must be a mistake. The coarser grind was worse. Logic said keep same grind and push through more liquid. 28 second pull. 42ish out. Not good.

Logic spent where to go from here.

4th: Has to be grind! Coarser is no bueno as the shots got worse. Tried to reset to the original setting. Pulled 28 second shot and only 36 came out. little bland but best shot yet. What happened here? Someone explain how accidentally grinding finer on a drying and over shot was better.

5th: to hell with it. Trying logic didn't work. Decided to go a notch finer and pull for as long as I dare. Dial between 7-8 on the niche. 18g > 33g out and 30-31 second. Best yet. Getting chocolate. Very drinkable. 1: 1.83 ratio. Shots are looking from the bottomless too.

Can someone walk me through & correct my logic during that dial in. Tell me how I could have got to where I did faster. Certain Im missing something either taste wise or adjustment wise. Any other suggestions or tweaks to try to improve the shot further? Really only getting the choc coming through. Do have a 20g vst that I could use. Should I just quit while I'm ahead. Actually written this recipe down so if what I'm getting now is my worse shot going forward I'm happy.

thanks in advance.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GazRef said:


> 4th: Has to be grind! Coarser is no bueno as the shots got worse. Tried to reset to the original setting. Pulled 28 second shot and only 36 came out. little bland but best shot yet. What happened here? Someone explain how accidentally grinding finer on a drying and over shot was better.
> 
> 5th: to hell with it. Trying logic didn't work. Decided to go a notch finer and pull for as long as I dare. Dial between 7-8 on the niche. 18g > 33g out and 30-31 second. Best yet. Getting chocolate. Very drinkable. 1: 1.83 ratio. Shots are looking from the bottomless too.


 Shot 1 wasn't over, sure it might have been drying/bitter but not necessarily over. It was likely low end of normal/just not as under as shot 2.

A lot of assumptions are made about over-extraction, it doesn't cause all bitterness in shots, a lot of folk are confused by shots being sour, finer gets more bitter...but go finer still and you can lose the sour & bitter. There's often a little peak of dryness/bitterness/woody/charred flavour just before you get into the sweet spot. At 1:2 (or thereabouts) it might actually be quite hard to over-extract with a lot of recently roasted, medium beans.

Change the ratio to a longer shot if you can't get any/a reasonable number of shots past sourness, after exhausting grind changes.

Any specific shot time has no place in a brew guide (it's not a 'recipe', because the recipe describes the desired outcome: "Chocolate, nuts, tangerine"...anything that fails to reasonably achieve that isn't 'the recipe'). Shot times vary with grinder & most importantly beans (even vary a little with the same beans).


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## GazRef (Dec 30, 2019)

Thanks for sharing. Should I go finer still and ignore the clock? Or maybe try the suggested recipe ratio minus the clock? When will I know I've gone too far?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GazRef said:


> Thanks for sharing. Should I go finer still and ignore the clock? Or maybe try the suggested recipe ratio minus the clock? When will I know I've gone too far?


 Suggested recipe is just a ratio, it's not going to greatly change the taste (if you are extracting well already), it'll just make the shot a tiny tad weaker when dialled in.

Depends what you want, you could aim coarser end of normal for a slightly cleaner tasting shot, or just keep going finer until you get hoppy/smoky dryness (may never happen at this ratio, acidity might flatten off though) then back off too sweetest previous result, or sourness comes back when you grind too fine and extraction drops again.

Ratio sets the expected strength/mouthfeel.

Grind setting sets extraction/flavour balance. If your strength, clarity, mouthfeel & flavour balance are ball park - this is the adjustment to focus on for tuning.

If it tastes good, time is such a wide tolerance it's not useful, but finer grinds (with the same coffee) take longer...until they don't. Probably not much to be gained by exceeding 50s, but I have had tasty shots around this depending on the grinder.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

GazRef said:


> 5th: to hell with it. Trying logic didn't work. Decided to go a notch finer and pull for as long as I dare...30-31 second.


 Pfffffffffft. Go for 40, 45, 50. If you want to know what over extraction really tastes like pull for over a minute (try not to cause your pump to cut out). Force yourself to drink it. You might not think it's that bad at first, you might like the powerful flavours, maybe there will be some obvious bitterness or something too. Just wait for the aftertaste (no rinsing your mouth when you're done).


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

How many degrees your machine set to? Have you tried to use the first recipe but drop the temperature by 1 or two degrees.


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## GazRef (Dec 30, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Suggested recipe is just a ratio, it's not going to greatly change the taste (if you are extracting well already), it'll just make the shot a tiny tad weaker when dialled in.
> 
> Depends what you want, you could aim coarser end of normal for a slightly cleaner tasting shot, or just keep going finer until you get hoppy/smoky dryness (may never happen at this ratio, acidity might flatten off though) then back off too sweetest previous result, or sourness comes back when you grind too fine and extraction drops again.
> 
> ...


 ? eureka moment for me. ty.


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