# Struggling with Sage Barista Express (ratios/timings etc)



## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

I watched a video about dialling in this machine, and it said to aim for 18g of coffee in, 36g out within 20-30 seconds.

It doesn't matter what I do, I can get 18g in and I can get 36g out, but it's impossible to get it out in anything more than 15 seconds without completely choking the machine.

As per the video and other recommendations, I start the timer when the first drips of coffee come out.

I'm using a fairly fine ground, and during the process the pressure needle on the machine is right at the top, which indicates that I can't really go any finer.

The machine came with a double walled basket, so I tried that as well, but even it outputs the 36g in 14 seconds.

I'm at the point where I'm thinking about giving up, I either clearly don't seem to be able to set this machine up, or there's something wrong with it.

Can anyone provide any guidance, or has anyone had similar issues?


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## General-S-1 (Jul 27, 2015)

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51039-sage-beprodtp-etc-read-this-first/?do=embed

Try the sage sub forum


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## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

General-S-1 said:


> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51039-sage-beprodtp-etc-read-this-first/?do=embed
> 
> Try the sage sub forum


 Thanks.

Straight away I noticed this...

"Have you noticed when you use older beans you have to grind finer and finer? Changes in the bean from the environment (oxidation, moisture etc.) not only make the bean become stale and lifeless, but make it far quicker and easier to extract what flavour is left, the puck doesn't present much resistance (also no Co2 release) so it runs through fast. "

So I'll grab some fresh beans before I go any further.


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## drh__ (Apr 3, 2020)

Have you changed the inner burr? It sounds as if it's still too coarse and doing this will mean you can grind MUCH finer.


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## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

drh__ said:


> Have you changed the inner burr? It sounds as if it's still too coarse and doing this will mean you can grind MUCH finer.


 Yes, I've changed it from 6 to 4.

Grinding finer doesn't seem to be the issue here. If I grind any finer the pressure gauge will be off the scale.


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## drh__ (Apr 3, 2020)

TheBinarySheep said:


> Yes, I've changed it from 6 to 4.
> 
> Grinding finer doesn't seem to be the issue here. If I grind any finer the pressure gauge will be off the scale.


 If you're getting 36g out in 15 seconds then you're clearly grinding too coarse.

Also, pay no attention to the pressure gauge, means absolutely nothing and does not determine what makes a good espresso or not.


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## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

drh__ said:


> If you're getting 36g out in 15 seconds then you're clearly grinding too coarse.
> 
> Also, pay no attention to the pressure gauge, means absolutely nothing and does not determine what makes a good espresso or not.


 I'll try going finer and see what happens.

For reference, I followed the instructions in this video


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## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

I'm currently using Lavazza beans, which from reading elsewhere is probably part of the problem.

From the link posted above, it seems they may be the issue and that they require you to grind much finer than you would be fresh beans. I've ordered some fresh beans.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TheBinarySheep said:


> I'm currently using Lavazza beans, which from reading elsewhere is probably part of the problem.
> 
> From the link posted above, it seems they may be the issue and that they require you to grind much finer than you would be fresh beans. I've ordered some fresh beans.


 Lavazza & Illy beans are preserved & usually good for a few days after opening.

If you can't get 18:36g in more than 15s, try 18:51g & see if that will get you into the 20s.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

TheBinarySheep said:


> For reference, I followed the instructions in this video


 For a change that's not a bad video. The grey sector on the dial is the espresso range and *little* way past that is still ok. Some would go well past it but lots of water will go into the drip tray if the machine doesn't choke ie no coffee comes out.

He mentions weighing beans in. The grinders can work well that way but do check the weight that comes out. You may need to add more beans until it settles down.

He suggests changing the dose to help tune. I'd suggest 1g at a time. If when going up the puck sticks to the shower screen try 1/2g more and it will probably stop doing that. The razor tool indicates a decent starting dose of grinds.

I think most would time from when the pump starts as that is when the grinds get wet.

Adjusting the out burr can be really bad news. You may go so fine that the burrs rub wrecking them. It should not be needed and many rumours on the subject relate to an earlier version of their grinders. I found starting at 8 and going *1 step* finer at a time ok. If this doesn't work out beans are suspect. Lavazza can be poor out of the bag. I managed several and some supermarket ones but people often find they can't. Can't say taste was ok even when it had been good in a french press etc.

I'd try straight into the portafilter. It's how I used it. Palm tampers ? Not so sure about those as no idea what the tamping pressure is. It's best to stay in the heavy range when people start off. The distributor especially the 2 slope type can be used to lightly compress the grinds square which helps with tamping. The grinds still ned to be evenly distributed in the filter basket when these are used. A nice central heap is ok. If bought you need 53mm as 54 wont fit.

What I found with this machine is that it often favoured times of over 30sec and ratios more like 3. Actually the manual that comes with the machine suggest 18g in and 60g out. The pressure gauge reading they suggest very probably are for the dual wall baskets. That is something you could try if you have unsuitable beans. They can be tuned in the same way as the single wall.

It helps to preheat these machines. They don't take long to heat up. They are mostly ready when they say they are. Give it a short flush portafilter off. Select steam, as soon as some comes out turn it off then fit the portafilter and pull you shot.  That is simpler than the way I did it. Leave it for 15min to heat up and it might even turn itself off. Can't remember that time.

When sorted you might find programming a button works out. Shot time will vary as it will when shots are weighed out but subject to my comments on the pressure gauge reading this can work well. Grinds preparation variability will cause the time to very as it will when weighing out.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Actually on use of steam first. A bit of water coming out of the steam nozzle may well do the same thing.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

How full is your portafilter before you start the shot? I know 18g, but what does that look like? Was it easy to get it all in the basket? Did you have to tamp hard?

Have you tried 16g:32g in 25-30 secs?

Over 15 secs, does it really choke the shot or does water just stop being pumped?


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## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

Fresh coffee arrived this morning.

I've changed the inner burr from 4 back to 6, and the grind setting on the side is down to 3.

I put 18g of beans in the hopper and checked that I got 18g of ground beans out.

I manually stopped the double shot at 33g, but ended up with 40g in the cup, so I need to re-programme the double shot button to bring that down a touch.

Pressure gauge was over the suggested pressure but not at the top. I timed the shot from pressing the button to be 25 seconds.

The shot itself tasted a little sour. I couldn't drink it on it's own. With steamed milk it's very nice indeed.

So, a couple of questions.

Is it best to time the shot from when you press the button or when the shot starts to drip?

The sour taste, I understand that's due to under extraction. Am I best going finer with the grind or going for a longer shot as suggested above (15:50g). Does doing either one amount to the same thing?

I think I'm getting closer as I'm certainly enjoying this drink more than I did before.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Time from starting the pump to turning the pump off.

Maybe kill the shot 10g before your target, it will likely drip up to target.

Sourness is usually under-extraction & can be exacerbated by too fine a grind.

A longer brew ratio increases extraction more effectively than going finer at a short ratio. Try 18:54g.

Don't use the pre-programmed buttons.


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## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Time from starting the pump to turning the pump off.
> 
> Maybe kill the shot 10g before your target, it will likely drip up to target.
> 
> ...


 Thanks, that's definitely helped. The shot tasted like a really strong coffee with a very slight, bitter after taste.


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## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

This morning, I tried to follow the same routine as yesterday, but the grind was far too fine and the machine couldn't get water through the basket.

The only difference between today and yesterday would be that the burr would have been warmer yesterday. Does that make a difference to the size of the grind?


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## drh__ (Apr 3, 2020)

Likely down to your tamping/distribution being different. Just keep practicing and working on that consistency.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

TheBinarySheep said:


> This morning, I tried to follow the same routine as yesterday, but the grind was far too fine and the machine couldn't get water through the basket.
> 
> The only difference between today and yesterday would be that the burr would have been warmer yesterday. Does that make a difference to the size of the grind?


 I find the BE changes shots quite a lot the hotter it gets. Have you tried turning down the temp with the programming?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

No nothing to do with that. Ambient temperature.

If you are weighing beans in the grinder will need a few shots to settle down. Usually when this is started for the first time a couple of beans needed to be added to get the output right. How often this has to be done depends on how clean the grinder was when you started.

Grinds prep can do all sorts. Eg make sure the grinds are even and fairly level before tamping. If you are stirring them up be careful not to leave uneven pressure behind when it's done.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There are several ways of levelling the grinds. Tapping the side of the portafilter is a favourite. One person used a spatula but other things can be used even a finger or thumb. It needs to be done gently though. I also feel it's best for people to start off with standard heavy tamping as it tends to mask some of the prep problems.

What I found on the BE and one other grinder that would do it was that a nice central even heap could just be tamped with no attention at all. This could be tapped down but doing that may spill them or spoil the heap.

The problem is pretty simple to explain really. Say one area of the grinds finishes up more compressed than others. Tamper is used and that doesn't get rid of the variations as the more compress or higher levels in the grind take the tamping pressure.  That's the theory and reaching perfection is probably impossible but it's a factor that needs to be kept in mind.

The BE volumetrics can be made to work pretty well. The clue is the pressure gauge. Ok in the grey sector or a bit past it. Shot time will vary as it does when people weigh out. It will vary even more if preparation varies.


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## TheBinarySheep (Mar 16, 2021)

The problem is, I tried four shots, and the machine struggled with all four shots. Where as it worked fine yesterday.

I'm tapping and levelling the grinds in the basket each time, and I think I'm being fairly consistent with the tamp. I even tried tamping a little lighter but it didn't make a difference.

I ended up having to adjust the grind from 3 to 8.

I'll keep an eye on and see if it changes again next time.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

TheBinarySheep said:


> The problem is, I tried four shots, and the machine struggled with all four shots. Where as it worked fine yesterday.
> 
> I'm tapping and levelling the grinds in the basket each time, and I think I'm being fairly consistent with the tamp. I even tried tamping a little lighter but it didn't make a difference.
> 
> ...


 Try grinding into a cup/pot/dry milk frothing jug, shake it, then transfer to the PF basket, if you are grinding direct into the PF currently.

Are you using 0.1g scales to weigh the dose?


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## Fiyo (Oct 25, 2020)

I have been struggling with producing a good shot from my sage machine (bambino plus) Ihave just had a sage 121 zoom session with Alex from 200 degrees coffee and found it hugely helpful. Just having someone go through what you are doing step by step. Watching as you prepare and pull a shot then talking you through changes to improve each subsequent shot made a massive difference to me. Alex was very friendly, helpful and so patient taking the time to answer any questions I had. I was on the zoom call for over an hour and there was absolutely no hard sell to buy any products. Would recommend giving it a go https://200degs.com/online-sage-barista-class?fbclid=IwAR0Vn3KligPREU5sO-1aJYPPxPd59IxA6Ol39n00pgTvaqxgZRZsf-gRdVk


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There is another possibility if the grinder has been used hopper on. It leaves grinds in the grinder and these need to be wasted each time the setting is changed. Not many grams true but it can matter. The best option if switching to weighing in after using it hopper on is to remove the outer burr, brush it and the centre burr and any grinds you can see. Don't remove the centre burr.

Also grinder adjustment -  don't knock Sage for this.

When setting finer 1 step ok, more run the grinder.

Going coarser - go too coarse and then fine.

Certain beans can cause problems when they are weighed in. Following cleaning as above other than adding a few beans to make up a weight it may stop working well. The beans may have choked the exit from the grinds chamber which will cause it to fill up as it does when the hopper is on. This means that more needs to wasted when the settings is changed and the grinder will need adjusting.

Easy to check, remove the outer burr and take a look. Ideally there will be a thin coat of grinds on the bottom of the grind chamber and a thin ring around it.  Leave it alone as it's precious. Remove and it will need to be built up again.


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## MarkHB (Jun 12, 2020)

TheBinarySheep said:


> The problem is, I tried four shots, and the machine struggled with all four shots. Where as it worked fine yesterday.


 How fresh are your beans? If they are too fresh then you can find wildly inconsistent shot times each day at the same grind setting. I usually leave beans to rest for at least 2 weeks and once I've dialled in the beans I find there is very little difference in the time a shot takes to pull.

The following video is a good demonstration of how bean freshness can affect shot times:


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## Mats (Oct 11, 2021)

Also new to espresso.

Took some time to make it work.

A few things i learned hope it can help.

Tamp with low pressure and make sure tamp is even. Then press down the last remaining mm hard to compress the puck

First weigh beens before until you find right grind size. Just put 18 gr in grinder

You can hear when burr is empty and just look at grinder time and should be easy to adjust after that when it's dialed in.

Around 40gr of coffee out is same as 60ml of water.

Use small glas or mark out around 0.6 dl so you know the level of your glas.

To make roughly the right grindsize it's easier to use volume by locking in the glas.

Run water for 30s. Starting coarce grind.

Go down in grind till you see around 60ml in the cup

Now you can use scale and taste to make it better.

As water runs through the puck it will take flavors from coffee. In this order

1. Sour acid flavours

2. More sweet nice coffee flavor

3. Bitter and watery flavours

If sour acid you need more time

If watery and bitter you need less time.

Fine grind more time for water to pass

Coarse grind less time for water to pass

First use grind to adjust taste.

Then fine tune with the time.

Look close and you can see when coffee running of portafilter turns light in color. That's bitter flavours starting.

If just bitter can be the roast.

Lower temp can make it less bitter.


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