# Lelit PL60PLUST vs Sage Dual Boiler



## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

Ok guys, I thought I was set on the Sage DB but am now having second thoughts.

As far as I can tell the follow are the pros of each machine

Lelit PL60PLUST

- smaller form factor, fits better

- full stainless steel body

- double manometer

- can turn off steam Boiler independently

Sage

- much more control

- better (?) heating system

- can be purchased through John Lewis so more convenient customer service.

Coming from a Silvia, I don't seem myself tinkering too much once the machine is setup. Just want something that's consistent and hassle free. We do prefer our flat whites (although I tend to straight shots also), hence a decent steam would be important.

Anyone got any advise? Any owner of either (or both) happy to share your experiences? At the moment the Sage is only slightly more expensive so it's not even about the money anymore.

Also wondering if it's possible to descale the Lelit at home.

Thanks in advance!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

if your going to look at 800-1000 machines - for me the lellit is defo out.

look at this expobar - https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/expobar-leva-dual-boiler-coffee-machine-reservoir.html

fully repairable and built to last.


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

jimbojohn55 said:


> if your going to look at 800-1000 machines - for me the lellit is defo out.
> 
> look at this expobar - https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/expobar-leva-dual-boiler-coffee-machine-reservoir.html
> 
> fully repairable and built to last.


I'm already stretching my budget TBH... would have really loved an expobar but that's not going to happen









I'd rather stick to the topic, please.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

What is it with Lellit? All of a sudden they are being promoted as the answer to everyones coffee needs. Perhaps they are but they are not widely available from UK sellers and I would be surprised if they are any better than a host of other makes......still, each to his own

There are a host of threads on Sage Dual Boilers if you look for them, but not many if any on the Lellit model you mention. Why not go and see one in the flesh and have a play, or are the UK sellers box shifters?


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> What is it with Lellit? All of a sudden they are being promoted as the answer to everyones coffee needs. Perhaps they are but they are not widely available from UK sellers and I would be surprised if they are any better than a host of other makes......still, each to his own


Haha I haven't even heard of / considered it until I've read some decent reviews around.

I'm not saying they are better than other makes either, but I don't really see any other Dual Boiler with the same specs in the same price bracket (low 800 or less)?

Granted there are a lot of options out there so I'm just narrowing it down to save the hassle. If you know of something better but not dearer I'd be happy to consider.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

For £800, the questions I would put, are, do you actually need a dual boiler.....what do you see the perceived advantage to be......usually things that are in the minority are so for a reason........what is, you buy a Lellit then in 6 months the seller no longer sells them for whatever reason......is the warranty from the retailer or the manufacturer? Hence the reference to box shifter......sometimes it is the things that are not so obvious which are important......a dual boiler in my humble (unless you can afford to buy whatever you desire) offers no real advantage over an HX.....they do not all need to have cooling flushes these days either


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am sure one of the forum sponsors would sell you a Cherub or similar for not too far away from £800......yes, I know the Lellit offers a dual boiler but there has to be a catch somewhere!

Having taken a look at the model you mention, it is very similar to a Quickmill Silvano using the same thin cheap steel casing.....you also have to think about resale value......I think you might struggle to find a buyer for that machine

http://lelit-uk.co.uk/lelitpl60.html

There are no contact details for the seller.....they say if the phone is not answered you will be redirected.....probably a one man band working from home judging by the amateurish website......does not fill me with confidence. Might be worth a ring

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/quik-mill-silvano-espresso-machine-1628.html


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> For £800, the questions I would put, are, do you actually need a dual boiler.....what do you see the perceived advantage to be......usually things that are in the minority are so for a reason........what is, you buy a Lellit then in 6 months the seller no longer sells them for whatever reason......is the warranty from the retailer or the manufacturer? Hence the reference to box shifter......sometimes it is the things that are not so obvious which are important......a dual boiler in my humble (unless you can afford to buy whatever you desire) offers no real advantage over an HX.....they do not all need to have cooling flushes these days either


I would like the flexibility of a quick start up from a dual boiler over the HX. That decision has already been made.

I want a dual boiler because:

1. Quicker start up than HX. Fits my schedule better

2. I want to steam and brew at the same time

And I would like a PID. Those are my basic requirements.

I see Lelit being around for a few years already, but I get where you're coming from about the seller in the UK. But that could go for any reseller to be fair.


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

@dfk41, steering away from the Lelit, what are your thoughts on the Sage DB?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@flattie......the machine might be fine but without decent back up, it could be a nightmare

I have had 2 Sage DB's and I rate them very highly. They have a 2 year warranty and after that has expired, sometimes Sage seem to help out, other times they do not, but, they have all repairs done by

http://coffeeclassics.co.uk/what-we-do/machine-repair-or-breakdown/

so you will always be able to have it mended.....


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

I did a lot of research before upgrading. Including a visit to bella barista to try out machines way above my initial budget, and trying out a forum members Sage.

I went with the sage db as i think it out performs many much more expensive machines and is a surprisingly solid and well thought out peice if kit. I really cant fault it.

The Lelit may be ok too but i think youll be very happy with the Sage.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Flattie - a dual boiler will not heat up faster than an equivalent hx machine, its other factors e.g. E61 group head that is the main issue. I understand both your top 2 aren't e61 so maybe a mute point though I wanted to point that out in case u change your mind.

Also - a hx machine can steam and brew at the same time.

If you're looking for us to help with decision - go for the Sage, I think if it was in a stainless steel case and had a 'made in Italy' badge on it we'd all be queueing up for one


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Flattie - a dual boiler will not heat up faster than an equivalent hx machine, its other factors e.g. E61 group head that is the main issue. I understand both your top 2 aren't e61 so maybe a mute point though I wanted to point that out in case u change your mind.


Sorry, can you clarify the heating up bit? I have always been under the impression that a HX is at least a 30min heat up while the DB can be up and going in 10-15?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

It's true most of the prosumer hx machines have 30-45 min warm up time from cold but that's because most of them have e61 group heads - it's the heat sink on these (and subsequent stability) that takes the time.

This is exactly the same for db machine with e61 group head - for example rocket r58 takes about the same time I believe. I must point out I own e61 hx and never had db though this is from the extensive research I did before purchasing.

So sage db isn't e61 and has really fast warm up time - something that caused me to look at it with interest ;-)


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

Why are you even worried about heat up time? They cost peanuts if left on for hours and if you use a Wemo type plug it can be on and hot before you get up in the morning or come home. That seems to me a very narrow aspect when deciding to spend alot of money on a machine.


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

mremanxx said:


> Why are you even worried about heat up time? They cost peanuts if left on for hours and if you use a Wemo type plug it can be on and hot before you get up in the morning or come home. That seems to me a very narrow aspect when deciding to spend alot of money on a machine.


Because maybe I want a last minute coffee? Maybe I have guests over and decided we might like a coffee?

Are you suggesting should just leave the machine running all day if that's my concern?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

For me this is a fair point. I have wemo and yes it does solve 'scheduled' coffee making but not spontaneous or 'out of schedule' quick or unplanned drinks.

For me a machine with very quick warm up time is a significant feature not to be underestimated.

Yeah you can leave these machines running all day - but what if u went out, what if you're sure you won't be having another that day? You'd shut it off.


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## doolallysquiff (Jul 26, 2014)

Sage DB has a very fast heat up time, so it seems to fit the bill. I had a sage DB but now own an HX. I only make couple of drinks a day so an HX suits my requirements. When purchasing a machine, find a retailer and ring them first and ask questions. If there is no telephone number or they never seem to answer, I'd look somewhere else.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

flattie said:


> Because maybe I want a last minute coffee? Maybe I have guests over and decided we might like a coffee?
> 
> Are you suggesting should just leave the machine running all day if that's my concern?


In that case, a Sage is the only real answer. It comes to temp in 3 to 4 mins, then you pull a cup of water through the group to bring into temp. It also has a heating system in the group to help it get there faster whereas an E61 relies on the boiler coming to temp then water circulating in the group. You can switch the Sage on from cold, make a cup of coffee, run the cleaning cycle and sit down on ten mins and the cleaning cycle takes 370 seconds!


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## mremanxx (Dec 30, 2014)

flattie said:


> Because maybe I want a last minute coffee? Maybe I have guests over and decided we might like a coffee?
> 
> Are you suggesting should just leave the machine running all day if that's my concern?


I too have last minute coffees, certainly don't let 15 bother me. I control my machine from my mobile. I too looked at the Lelit but did not buy due to the concerns raised by others. Buy something you can get repaired easily, it is an electrical appliance after all all may fail.


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

All fair point guys and you've set me back on track.

Sage DB it is!


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I would buy Mildreds rocket if I had 750 - much more for your money - https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?36741-Rocket-Giotto-Evoluzione-North-Lincs-North-East-Darlington-£750/page3


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

jimbojohn55 said:


> I would buy Mildreds rocket if I had 750 - much more for your money - https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?36741-Rocket-Giotto-Evoluzione-North-Lincs-North-East-Darlington-£750/page3


Except it's a HX









@igm45 might be interested?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

jimbojohn55 said:


> I would buy Mildreds rocket if I had 750 - much more for your money - https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?36741-Rocket-Giotto-Evoluzione-North-Lincs-North-East-Darlington-£750/page3


Disagree.

Sage DB has far more functionality than the Rocket Giotto.

Easy to talk yourself into circles. If you like the look of the Sage then buy one from Lakeland on Price match and return it if you don't get on with it.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Thanks for the tag Flattie, I have bought the PL62 now. Just waiting for delivery, purchased from Caterkwik so certainly not a one man band. I note the lack of reviews of Lelit on here so will post one once I have had a play with the machine.


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Thanks for the tag Flattie, I have bought the PL62 now. Just waiting for delivery, purchased from Caterkwik so certainly not a one man band. I note the lack of reviews of Lelit on here so will post one once I have had a play with the machine.


I was under the impression that caterkwik only sells to catering businesses? That's what they told me when I was looking into it.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ha ha and we're off again.... flattie didn't u already make your mind up on a sage?

@igm45 - I hope @Basra is reading this as he's been looking for a lelit


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

Hmm caterkwik does pl60Plustr1 double boiler pid model £100 cheaper than espresso underground for £718. Why they never come up on google searches before i wonder..


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Inspector said:


> Hmm caterkwik does pl60Plustr1 double boiler pid model £100 cheaper than espresso underground for £718. Why they never come up on google searches before i wonder..


Simple, they do not pay for optimisation! Google rankings are based on how much you pay them!


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Ha ha and we're off again.... flattie didn't u already make your mind up on a sage?
> 
> @igm45 - I hope @Basra is reading this as he's been looking for a lelit


Haha I know! Actually I spoke to caterkwik before I noticed the cheaper Sage on offer.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

flattie said:


> Haha I know! Actually I spoke to caterkwik before I noticed the cheaper Sage on offer.


Have you asked Caterkwik who hours the warranty? This is vital as most box shifters offer no warranty on machines, it comes from the manufacturer, which is why retailers like BB are dearer as the warranty issues are their responsibility and they honour and fulfil them


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Have you asked Caterkwik who hours the warranty? This is vital as most box shifters offer no warranty on machines, it comes from the manufacturer, which is why retailers like BB are dearer as the warranty issues are their responsibility and they honour and fulfil them


I didn't. When I spoke to them last, they said they only worked with catering businesses so didn't progress further with other questions.


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

https://www.caterkwik.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=show_terms section 7 might be helpful


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Inspector said:


> https://www.caterkwik.co.uk/cgi-bin/trolleyed_public.cgi?action=show_terms section 7 might be helpful


Like the average person is going to read and understand that lot!


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## Basra (Mar 5, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I am sure one of the forum sponsors would sell you a Cherub or similar for not too far away from £800......yes, I know the Lellit offers a dual boiler but there has to be a catch somewhere!
> 
> Having taken a look at the model you mention, it is very similar to a Quickmill Silvano using the same thin cheap steel casing.....you also have to think about resale value......I think you might struggle to find a buyer for that machine
> 
> ...


The owner (Espresso Underground) got back to me and told me a bit about the business. Good communication and good reviews. Also theres much mentioned about him (Peter) on here.


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## flattie (Mar 7, 2017)

Had a quick look at a few Sage today and noticed the portafilter is plastic on the inside of the lower end range of machines? They didn't have a dual boiler here at the shop, but is this also the case for the Dual Boiler?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

flattie said:


> Had a quick look at a few Sage today and noticed the portafilter is plastic on the inside of the lower end range of machines? They didn't have a dual boiler here at the shop, but is this also the case for the Dual Boiler?


On the db, the pf is a fantastic quality stainless steel affair. In fact all of the Sage accessories are spot on quality wise. Not many machines give you stainless steel


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

agree - the Sage DB portafilters I replaced the handles on are spot on solid shaped SS with a great finish.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

I also spoke with Peter from Espresso underground, he was exceptionally helpful however was unable to price match or get close to caterkwik.

With regards to the warranty as per section 7 caterkwik offer a 12 month warranty and it is honoured by them, unless otherwise stated. The lelit was not otherwise stated so I would expect them to honour it should any issues arise.

They are a large company that have been in business for 23 years, with distance selling regs and credit card protection I feel as safe as I can ordering from them. I ordered 2 weeks ago and they have updated me 3 times now with an ETA, customer services seem sound.

I will continue to be the test dummy and keep you all posted...


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