# Sage Barista Touch Newbie Q's



## fuziduck

So I'm a newbie to the world of good coffee. I used to have a Delonghi bean to cup, but have taken the plunge and purchased a BT!

I've read a lot and taken the advice on buying decent beans (Just signed up try Pact) and the process of brewing a decent espresso.

In the mean time I am using some Union beans that were roasted 2 weeks ago so should be reasonable for my first batch of coffee?

I've started with a Grind Setting of 10, 15 second grind which seems to tamp into the portafilter nicely at a weight of 19g. I am however getting very bitter coffee which starts to pour at around 5 seconds and if I let it continue for 30 seconds I end up with about 70g of coffee. (I understand it should be a ratio of about 1:2 or 1:25?)

From what I understand if it is bitter it means the coffee is over extracted, which means I should grind coarser beans or reduce brew time, however given the quantity coming out it suggests that I should also be using finer grinds to slow down the extraction as I understood a 30 second extraction was about right?

Does it mean I'm not tamping with enough pressure?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Luke


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## Iris

Are you sure your not confusing bitter with sour? What you are describing is under extracted coffee pouring that quickly.

I would suggest grinding finer, until to can a get a double espresso to extract in around 30 seconds.

Also adjust your dose, the maximum dose really is 18g, for the baskets that come with barista touch. Try grind setting 8 with a 18g dose as the manual suggests a starting point. Then weigh your dose and total extraction weight aiming for around 1:2 ratio in around 30 seconds. even try a longer a ratio 1:3 see what tastes best to you. Just keep adjusting until you find what works best for you.


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## Mrboots2u

fuziduck said:


> So I'm a newbie to the world of good coffee. I used to have a Delonghi bean to cup, but have taken the plunge and purchased a BT!
> 
> I've read a lot and taken the advice on buying decent beans (Just signed up try Pact) and the process of brewing a decent espresso.
> 
> In the mean time I am using some Union beans that were roasted 2 weeks ago so should be reasonable for my first batch of coffee?
> 
> I've started with a Grind Setting of 10, 15 second grind which seems to tamp into the portafilter nicely at a weight of 19g. I am however getting very bitter coffee which starts to pour at around 5 seconds and if I let it continue for 30 seconds I end up with about 70g of coffee. (I understand it should be a ratio of about 1:2 or 1:25?)
> 
> From what I understand if it is bitter it means the coffee is over extracted, which means I should grind coarser beans or reduce brew time, however given the quantity coming out it suggests that I should also be using finer grinds to slow down the extraction as I understood a 30 second extraction was about right?
> 
> Does it mean I'm not tamping with enough pressure?
> 
> Any help would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> Luke


Bitter does not always equal to over extracted, the progression of taste that is sour > sweet> bitter is not correct, taste is not always linear.

In your case 19> 70 os going to be ore likely over extracted , and weak.

Extraction is also a function of the coffee to water ratio .....in your case your ratio of 1:4 means you are more than likely on the "over extracted ' range and yes bitter.

I would adjust , grind finer, taste , keep grinding finer until you get a better balance

Lastly dont get hung up on time , shots can be tasty from 25 -45 seconds ball park


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## ajohn

I'd also suggest checking the dose of grinds with the razor tool. Some people have problems with the puck spinning when it's used. Maybe they tamp too lightly or are trying to remove too much coffee, I always tamp again after using it. It's not a bad idea to strain a little when that is done as it more likely to be consistent.

I too would suggest starting at 8 but would add wasting a few grams of grinds each time the setting is changed to get rid of the previous settings grinds. Sage grinders don't retain that much in this respect but not doing this can lead to people chasing their tail. Also when going finer just one step at a time. In some respects any grinder should be run when it's adjusted finer but I'm happy that one step is ok. If someone has a problem with a Sage grinder adjustment and reports it one of their engineers is likely to ask if the user does that.

People often say I have an X gram filter basket. There is a problem though, the density of beans vary. I do use one bean myself that on the single basket takes nearly 1g less of grinds compared with some others. That is extreme. A new user hasn't really a clue about how much to put in a basket, the weight may even need adjusting as the grinder setting is changed.







I don't think this is why Sage supply it but it's useful for just this reason. It's probably there to allow a timed dose to be trimmed to the same level every time rather than have to set the timer exactly or periodically adjust it. It doesn't work so well on the DB but on the BE I got into the habit of using it on any new bean to establish the grinder setting and then made minor adjustments to the weight.

John

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## fuziduck

Thanks all for the replies. I will try and grind finer first and also reduce the dose slightly to 18g as a starting point. (I have checked with the razor however it is always below the limit which perhaps means I am tamping too hard.) Does anyone have a suggestion on how to check how hard they are tamping?

I have been running through a couple of shots at each change of setting to allow for grinds already in the machine.

I'll experiment a bit more with the comments above in mind and will come back with my results.

Fingers crossed.


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## Mrboots2u

fuziduck said:


> Thanks all for the replies. I will try and grind finer first and also reduce the dose slightly to 18g as a starting point. (I have checked with the razor however it is always below the limit which perhaps means I am tamping too hard.) Does anyone have a suggestion on how to check how hard they are tamping?
> 
> I have been running through a couple of shots at each change of setting to allow for grinds already in the machine.
> 
> I'll experiment a bit more with the comments above in mind and will come back with my results.
> 
> Fingers crossed.


Don't get overly concerned about you tamping pressure, just push til you can feel no real resistance . Tamping ( as long as level ) has the least impact on what you are doing.


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## Sarracenae

fuziduck said:


> Thanks all for the replies. I will try and grind finer first and also reduce the dose slightly to 18g as a starting point. (I have checked with the razor however it is always below the limit which perhaps means I am tamping too hard.) Does anyone have a suggestion on how to check how hard they are tamping?
> 
> I have been running through a couple of shots at each change of setting to allow for grinds already in the machine.
> 
> I'll experiment a bit more with the comments above in mind and will come back with my results.
> 
> Fingers crossed.


If it's any consolation, I've had my BT for about 3 weeks and have found exactly the same with respect to the razor. I've concentrated on only using the double shot basket. I've played with bean and grind time and can pretty consistently get 18g in the basket, but after tamping it's always about 1 or 2mm below the level of the razor. I've tried a few beans so far, some from OOC locally, some from pumphreys locally and some from foundy. I've found them all pretty consistant except for one of the beans from pumphreys (espresso crema) these beans were very light (weight to volume was about half of the other beans) and I found the machine struggling to grind them. I've given up on them.

Generally to start I've concentrated on trying to get my 18g to about a 36g shot in the 30 second standard double brew.


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## fuziduck

Hello All,

So I thought I should report back following the helpful comments.

Using Pact coffee I seem to be getting some better results now. (I think the grinder needed a little time to settle down from being new)

I'm also now weighing my beans before grinding and running the grinder empty each time. Results seem to be ~0.1g in and out.

18g of coffee seems reasonable and after pulling the shot you can just about see the indent of the shower screen from where the grinds expand.

It starts to pour around 6 seconds and I will get roughly 60g of coffee at about 35 seconds. This seems reasonable and I'm getting some nice flavours from the coffee. (Is this the sort of quantities I should aim for because Sarracenae is getting almost half the coffee for the same weight of beans?

I think I'm going to have to start a Pact subscription as I don't want to go through this fuss from every change of beans!

Thanks All.


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## hummel89

I assume it will operate in a same fashion as Barista express.. if so.. I suggest you put exact amount of beans that you intend to grind in hopper and grind it all.. 18g would be a good starting point. grind size should vary between 4-7... Go for 6.. You do seem to have recent roast. (bear in mind that dark roast produces more defined strong taste.. some say bitter. On the other hand medium roast should be more mellow). Does it have a pressure gauge when you extract? Older version has it and it will give you range for good espresso (12o'clock isshhh..) you can extract 1:2 ratio.. but it doesn't say that you cant do double shot. Important thing is to let coffee come out as a 'warm honey'. If it drips then it is over extracting.. if it comes out like a water it will be underextracted. As far as the tamping goes.. don't tamp it to death.. nice and good tamp.. make sure it is FLAT!.


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## fuziduck

hummel89 said:


> I assume it will operate in a same fashion as Barista express.. if so.. I suggest you put exact amount of beans that you intend to grind in hopper and grind it all.. 18g would be a good starting point. grind size should vary between 4-7... Go for 6.. You do seem to have recent roast. (bear in mind that dark roast produces more defined strong taste.. some say bitter. On the other hand medium roast should be more mellow). Does it have a pressure gauge when you extract? Older version has it and it will give you range for good espresso (12o'clock isshhh..) you can extract 1:2 ratio.. but it doesn't say that you cant do double shot. Important thing is to let coffee come out as a 'warm honey'. If it drips then it is over extracting.. if it comes out like a water it will be underextracted. As far as the tamping goes.. don't tamp it to death.. nice and good tamp.. make sure it is FLAT!.


OK So I reduced the grind by one notch to 9 now. 18g in and 54g out so this is certainly a lot closer to what is expected. It has a nice crema, however I feel like I'm still not getting all of the flavours from the coffee.

I'll keep fiddling with the grind and see where it goes. it has a nice 'warm honey' flow and only gets spluttery towards the end, it also seems to be leaving a slightly wet puck, could this be because the dose in the porta filter is too low and its not expanding fully?

I can see myself becoming quite addicted to getting the perfect shot!


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## Geezercdg

fuziduck said:


> OK So I reduced the grind by one notch to 9 now. 18g in and 54g out so this is certainly a lot closer to what is expected. It has a nice crema, however I feel like I'm still not getting all of the flavours from the coffee.
> 
> I'll keep fiddling with the grind and see where it goes. it has a nice 'warm honey' flow and only gets spluttery towards the end, it also seems to be leaving a slightly wet puck, could this be because the dose in the porta filter is too low and its not expanding fully?
> 
> I can see myself becoming quite addicted to getting the perfect shot!


Have you checked the temperature of the espresso coming out or tried testing the temperature of the water without the portafilter? I bought one recently and it was only brewing at 55 C so I took it back and the other machine was exactly the same - so I bought an Oracle instead and now no more bitter espresso.

Hope this helps.


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## fuziduck

Thanks Geezercdg.

Without any accurate thermometer in the house yet I've had to improvise with a jam thermometer. I'm also not sure where to measure from.

Method was to pre-heat a shot cup and then re-fill with hot water and measure that.

I did this both from the hot water outlet and directly from the shower screen with no porta filter connected.

From both I got 56C. I then fiddled with the settings and put it to maximum and it now comes out at 58C.

Can anyone confirm if this temperature should be a lot closer to 90C as I am now convincing myself it is too cold having read Geezercdg's other thread. Can there really be a whole batch of these machines that don't get up to temperature?!


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## HRC99

I'll test mine later but I'd suspect I'll get a similar result.


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## hummel89

try finer grind size. Nomally, puck is wet if grind size is coarse or if you re using dual wall filter. Aso, if you remove portafilter straight after brewing you might get wet puck.. thats all part of it.


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## HRC99

HRC99 said:


> I'll test mine later but I'd suspect I'll get a similar result.


Checked my temperature with a thermapen, no portafilter and run three times to flush through. 58 degreees and that's on the highest brew temperature.


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## fuziduck

HRC99 said:


> Checked my temperature with a thermapen, no portafilter and run three times to flush through. 58 degreees and that's on the highest brew temperature.


I've just ordered a digital thermometer and see what my results are.

Are we saying that the highest brew of 58C out of the shower screen is OK or is there a machine problem?

It would be good to know if anyone with a Barista Express or Oracle gets similar readings?


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## HRC99

For me, that's not hot enough. As it's coming straight out, that surely is the maximum temperature.

As you say, it'd be interesting for an owner of a different model to comment.


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## fuziduck

Temperature now measured with an accurate digital thermometer. I'm getting 66C from the shower screen after flushing it a couple of times.

I'm really hoping we get some responses from other model owners as I'd really like to see if this is a specific model issue, then I can go back to Sage and see what they have to say!


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## H4WKS

I've registered for the forums having come across this thread over the past few weeks when trying to research issues I'm having with my Sage Barista Touch purchased just before Christmas.

I'm also having trouble with the espresso produced not being hot. When preheating the portafilter and my cup by running 2/3 brews of just water through I get an espresso temperature of 55C. I've also taken a temperature for just the water being run through the preheated portafilter and basket (without any coffee) and this is 60-65C in the cup.

Unfortunately it does seem like this is not an isolated issue and quite a few others have been having temperature trouble with their Barista Touch machines.


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## HowardSmith

fuziduck said:


> Temperature now measured with an accurate digital thermometer. I'm getting 66C from the shower screen after flushing it a couple of times.
> 
> I'm really hoping we get some responses from other model owners as I'd really like to see if this is a specific model issue, then I can go back to Sage and see what they have to say!


i wouldn't assume you have brew temperature issues to start with... why would you think this?

are you still playing & experimenting with different brew ratios?

if you are still pulling 18/50ish & wanting more then keep playing...

are you drinking espresso or milk based drinks?


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## HRC99

My frustration is that a large part of choosing this machine was simplicity. For me, it's not quite as advertised. I'm boiling a kettle, heating up the portafilter, then running a couple of empty shots through to get it up to a decent temperature.

i absolutely appreciate (now) that a decent cup of coffee doesn't come easy and that there is effort involved but that's not what this machine is billed as.


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## ajohn

Heating the portafilter is easy and only a little fiddly. Fit the single dual wall basket and run a shot through it. Minimises water use. If making several drinks on the trot it just needs doing on the first one. Just run the shot long enough to get the portafilter way too hot to touch. Then remove and fit the basket you intend to use. It can also be done via the hot water outlet or steam.







How did I find out it needs to be heated - eventually when I made 3 drinks on the trot I tasted each one.

Some DTP users at one point suggested that it can also be heated by simply leaving it in for a while. 15min may have some effect or maybe less or even more. I never tried it due to the way I used the machine. Switch on, made the drink(s) etc and switched off.

If some one does go the dual wall heat up way a filter basket extraction tool off Amazon is useful. It's also useful when the time comes to clean behind the shower screen. Once I had used one of these tools for filter baskets frankly I wouldn't be without one. They are shipped promptly for free.

Based on the previous model and a straight BE I would say that if some one always runs the same beans through them they are an excellent bean to cup machine. All a user needs worry about is checking the weight of the grinds in the filter basket and adjusting grind time before the weight change becomes a problem. What I found on that score was that initially that might mean several adjustments a week but eventually that slowed down. This of course needs some one to master other aspect of making a coffee and people often have initial problems. One problem the is all of the must does on the web. I'd suggest initially people aim for weights in and weights out as suggested in the manual. Then change if needed to get a taste that they enjoy. Change it gradually - that way it's more likely to result in the taste the bean should have or the one some one wants.

I would also suggest making use of the razor tool. Some have had problems with the puck spinning. I didn't but it can still be used to check that the fill level is reasonably. Sometime a bit more weight wise is better but I do mean a bit.

John

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## HRC99

I'm only using a single wall portafilter at the moment. Leaving it on does nothing to warm it up. I left it on for a good half an hour and it didn't make any difference.

i picked up one of the portafilter extraction tools following a suggestion on here. Very handy and saves burning my hand!

I am quite happy with the coffee I am getting out of it at the moment. In fairness, I know I am just scratching the surface on coffee at the moment. To be honest, until I started lurking on here I didn't even know that there was even a surface such was my ignorance!

I started with Nespresso then found some better quality capsules which ruined the normal Nespresso ones for me. I just couldn't abide them having tried some from Colonna, Pact and Volcano.

The next step for me was to go for beans but needed to get approval from the boss. She saw the Barista Touch and loved the look of it. And here I am.

I know that I have a colossal amount to learn but, from my perspective and my wife's, we are drinking far better coffee that we ever have done before.

The temperature is just a bit of a niggle for me.


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## HowardSmith

HRC99 said:


> I'm only using a single wall portafilter at the moment. Leaving it on does nothing to warm it up. I left it on for a good half an hour and it didn't make any difference.
> 
> i picked up one of the portafilter extraction tools following a suggestion on here. Very handy and saves burning my hand!
> 
> I am quite happy with the coffee I am getting out of it at the moment. In fairness, I know I am just scratching the surface on coffee at the moment. To be honest, until I started lurking on here I didn't even know that there was even a surface such was my ignorance!
> 
> I started with Nespresso then found some better quality capsules which ruined the normal Nespresso ones for me. I just couldn't abide them having tried some from Colonna, Pact and Volcano.
> 
> The next step for me was to go for beans but needed to get approval from the boss. She saw the Barista Touch and loved the look of it. And here I am.
> 
> I know that I have a colossal amount to learn but, from my perspective and my wife's, we are drinking far better coffee that we ever have done before.
> 
> The temperature is just a bit of a niggle for me.


what exactly is the temperature issue?


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## HRC99

It's on the previous page but, essentially, I struggle to get a drink out of it above 58 degrees.


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## HowardSmith

HRC99 said:


> It's on the previous page but, essentially, I struggle to get a drink out of it above 58 degrees.


& how are the drinks tasting? At what brew ratios? What beans are you using? How old?


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## ajohn

HRC99 said:


> I'm only using a single wall portafilter at the moment. Leaving it on does nothing to warm it up. I left it on for a good half an hour and it didn't make any difference.
> 
> .


Single wall refers to the type of basket fitted into the portafilter. Sage also provide dual wall baskets. When empty they restrict the water flow to a similar level to a single wall filled with grounds. The dual wall is stamped on the bottom of the basket - it isn't used with coffee in it. Just used to get heat into the portafilter.

I didn't think leaving it in would heat it up. It's just that some one mentioned these machined did put a sensible amount if heat into it. I believe the correct portafilter temperature should be 80C bu some variation is likely to be acceptable. I found that the last of 3 shots done on the trot could heat it up from cold but feel the method I used is much better. I tasted each shot rather than just handing them to some one and was rather surprised by the difference so always preheated after that.

It's not that easy to measure the brew temperature of the water flowing through a puck. Measuring it without water flowing through a filled portafilter fitted is pointless as the flow rates will much higher than the machine is intended to cope with. One way of maybe getting some idea that it is of the right order could be the temperature coming out of a preheated portfilter correctly filled with coffee. I believe that should be some where either side of around 75C. Still not easy to measure.

The razor tool is there to solve a problem with timed grinders. It's not easy to set the time to give a required dose of grinds. It can be done but when the grinder is being adjusted the grind weight it produces in a set time will change. Rather than setting a grind weight it sets a constant fill height instead. When a satisfactory drink has been found that weight can then be used and maybe adjusted. It can also still be used while the grind timer is being set. If for instance it comes out low add a touch more manually which will probably mean razoring excess off. Personally I carried on using it when I switched to weighing beans in rather than using a hopper as once things were right I had a good idea how much the weight could be changed without any drawbacks.

I'd have thought that 2mm lower than it leaves would be too much but pass as I would be using a weight and nothing else once I had gone in that direction. I'd expect a rather wet soggy puck but have never checked. From memory I found 16g to be about the lowest weight that could be used in the double.








wish the razor that comes with a dual boiler worked so well.

John

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## fuziduck

So I thought I should post a bit of an update. I returned the Barista Touch to Sage.

Whilst the BT may not have been 'broken' it didn't perform how I expected it to. The temperature of the water actually got up to around 85C when using a pressurised basket to reduce flow, but the portafilter would stay cold unless you ran some water through it with the pressurised basket.

So I have now replaced it with the oracle. This is an infinitely better machine. The heated grouphead is fantastic. 10 mins after turning it on the portafilter is too hot to touch and ready to brew.

A dual boiler machine is definitely the way forward. With the auto milk frothing you can actually prepare both parts of the drink at the same time. So that's a useful function.

And finally the grinding mechanism is easier to make finer adjustments with. It may be the same grinder as the BT, but it's an easier process to fine tune the coffee.

Thanks for all the help on this thread and now I can start discovering the world of coffee!


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## H4WKS

fuziduck said:


> So I thought I should post a bit of an update. I returned the Barista Touch to Sage.
> 
> Whilst the BT may not have been 'broken' it didn't perform how I expected it to. The temperature of the water actually got up to around 85C when using a pressurised basket to reduce flow, but the portafilter would stay cold unless you ran some water through it with the pressurised basket.
> 
> So I have now replaced it with the oracle. This is an infinitely better machine. The heated grouphead is fantastic. 10 mins after turning it on the portafilter is too hot to touch and ready to brew.
> 
> A dual boiler machine is definitely the way forward. With the auto milk frothing you can actually prepare both parts of the drink at the same time. So that's a useful function.
> 
> And finally the grinding mechanism is easier to make finer adjustments with. It may be the same grinder as the BT, but it's a an easier process to fine tune the coffee.
> 
> Thanks for all the help on this thread and now I can start discovering the world of coffee!


I returned my Barista Touch to Amazon last week due to the low water temperatures. As it seems to be a bit of a known issue with the Touch based on some of the threads on here and the customer reviews on retailer websites I've gone with the Barista Express as a replacement.


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## ajohn

You would need a Scace to really get an idea what the brew water temperature was as far as the coffee is concerned. Might stop people from dipping things in coffee / water flows to measure that temperature. They wont. Scace, a decent idea of what it is and how it behaves.

The reason for the difference in portafilter heat up time of their DB style machines and the others is how they are constructed. One has a metal heat conduction path to the portafilter and the others haven't. Going on the pre thermojet models if those had the same path there wouldn't be any significant difference. The DB has a separate group head heater because there is nothing else to heat it - a metal plate hidden inside the machine above the grouphead. The BE has the same but the thermocoil unit heats it. The DTP is the same but different parts and I would assume thermojet models as well.

Personally I want my morning coffee a few mins after I get up. That time varies so you can guess what I do on the DB to get it's portafilter hot. It also gives the machines a regular clean water backflush which will help keep the internals clean. To be honest if I didn't want the switch on and use a couple of mins later I probably wouldn't buy a Sage machine. Unfair in some ways as some would take over 1/2hr to be ready.







Big difference

John

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## Mrboots2u

Scace would cost more than the machine


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