# Ikawa Home Roaster - Now on Kickstarter



## big dan

Ok so there was a bit of a stir a year ago over the Ikawa Pro Roaster and a thread started but here: http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?16459-Ikawa-Home-Roaster But a lot of the info was wrong so i have started a new topic here.

I wasn't able to make the London Coffee Festival but i'm hoping some of you got a chance to see this demo'd and can post your thoughts.

I got in early and backed this project for £450 but there are still plenty of slots at £500 that is a saving of £250 of the retail price if this gets funded.

So here are my initial thoughts on this as I think its brilliant but i know reception on the forums was a bit luke warm:

Here is there Kick Starter page with more info:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andrewstordy/ikawa-home-coffee-roaster

Basically it is a small roaster for home use which connects to an app via bluetooth so you can create your own roast profiles. Roast time can be from 3-10 minutes and there can be up to 5 profile points in the roast.

The biggest things that have gone against this machine are it's price (the pro version was about £2000) and that is only roasts a very small amount (50g of roasted beans). However I'm not convinced these are all bad points.

Price - The home version is still expensive but at around £500 (on Kickstarter currently) it is only a little bit more expensive than the Gene Cafe. £750 is going to be a bit steep but if they get it funded chances are prices may come down eventually. Considering a lot of people here paid a £100 for the Acaia scales and the Lunars are looking to be £200 then £500-£700 isn't that bad. With the combination of the app it is allows a high degree of customization but also easy enough to use for a roasting newbie

Only 50g output - I don't see the problem here to be honest. I usually make one or 2 cups in a session and 50g is more than enough for this. Also as you are roasting a smaller amount it may only take 5 mins to roast your coffee so doing a few runs back to back isn't hard or particularly time consuming. The biggest factor for me in this is that i have been reading a lot recently that the resting of coffee beans is a bit of a myth that has come from larger scale producers where large amounts of CO2 can cause issues. Isn't that the point of the bloom to allow the CO2 to escape? Nowhere have i read that this affects taste. Now granted i haven't tried any experiments on freshly roasted coffee with my espresso machine. I like the idea of roasting my beans right before i grind them and make my coffee so its gone from green bean to espresso in the matter of 15 minutes! Can't get much fresher than that. If espresso quality suffers then i don't see a problem roasting a little bit in advance. I like the idea of having a big bag of green beans that will last for months and then just roasting exactly what i need so my coffee is never more than a week old!

Any other forum members here backing the project? Would love to hear comments and thoughts?


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## jlarkin

I know next to nothing about home roasters and I'm just buying a gaggia classic - just setting the scene... I did see this at the festival. It looked like a very neat little machine, it was running and they explained briefly is all steamed info on to the app so you can see temp and time etc and adjust if you want. I took a card and I'm half tempted but at the moment because I'm getting so many other bits of kit and learning so much I'm not sure that I want to add home roasting to my learning curve. I think it looked well made and the price isn't too prohibitive...


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## DavecUK

jlarkin said:


> I know next to nothing about home roasters and I'm just buying a gaggia classic - just setting the scene... I did see this at the festival. It looked like a very neat little machine, it was running and they explained briefly is all steamed info on to the app so you can see temp and time etc and adjust if you want. I took a card and I'm half tempted but at the moment because I'm getting so many other bits of kit and learning so much I'm not sure that I want to add home roasting to my learning curve. I think it looked well made and the price isn't too prohibitive...


I know lots about home roasters and recommend you avoid. Very expensive, impractical and unlikely to produce the sort of quality you should be looking for.


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## Glenn

Hi Dave

Can I please clarify that you have roasted on this machine?

They are new in the market (having been in design and testing mode for the past couple of years) and should be given a fair chance to prove themselves, and not dismissed outright


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## DavecUK

Glenn said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> Can I please clarify that you have roasted on this machine?
> 
> They are new in the market (having been in design and testing mode for the past couple of years) and should be given a fair chance to prove themselves, and not dismissed outright


Why do you need to clarify Glenn, it should be pretty clear from my post I have not roasted on it....but I am sure as eggs is eggs, that it won't be very good at all. I probably have more experience of different home roasters that did, and didn't (because they were not great) make it to the market than most on this forum. Hence I feel fairly confident to make the comments I do, based on my knowledge of roasting and home roasters in particular. My objective here is to help the people on the forum.....not the manufacturers.

If then they decide to stump up the money, then at least I tried. I did the same with the ZPM espresso machine on various forums...I'm not saying these guys won't deliver a product, but when they do, "the sizzle will be better than the sausage". Its not stopping you promoting their product, if with your knowledge of it, you disagree with my assessment, or think this is something of merit to the forum membership.


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## Glenn

Until I have used it I don't know the answer Dave - but I am sure as eggs is eggs, that I won't know if it will be very good at all until I get hands on - maybe in the next fortnight


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## big dan

I look forward to your thoughts Glenn! I have followed the ikawa guys for a while now with the hope they would get the home roaster out and released,


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## Dallah

How would this work when you need to rest espresso beans for about a week post roast? Seems a basic flaw; or am I being Thicky McThick of the clan Thicko?


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## The Systemic Kid

Don't roasters use 50 grm capacity roasters to test roast beans before deciding on the roast profile for bulk roasting?


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## Glenn

Many coffee roasters have sample roasters - usually 80-100g - some up to 250g


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## big dan

ridland said:


> How would this work when you need to rest espresso beans for about a week post roast? Seems a basic flaw; or am I being Thicky McThick of the clan Thicko?


Interesting video debunking the whole rest your coffee issue;


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## big dan

Mr kid that's what the pro version was for I believe, it was sold to roasters as a sample roaster but their goal seemed to be to get the price down on manufacturing so they could release a home version.


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## Mrboots2u

Kickstarter has delivered some good products ( acaia scales for one ) anyway , lets reserve opinions until people have used one ....that would be the fair thing to do all round for those concerned...

Ive seen they were at LCF from a few posts elsewhere.....so i dont think we are quite in ZPM land just yet ....


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## big dan

Couldn't agree more Mr boots! This product may not be perfect but I like the idea and want them to succeed. As I live in a small flat a small roasting unit that doesn't need a lot of room or venting really appeals to me!


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## froggystyle

I am a little confused, never sued kickstarter but from i read below, you pledge £450, you get a roaster for £750, is that on top of your £450, or £300 left to pay after your pledge??

Pledge £450 or more *40 backers **All gone!*

*EARLY BIRD* IKAWA Home Roaster

Estimated retail: £750

European Union - Shipping £25


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## Dylan

No with kickstarter you back the project, if they make it all the way to production you get one of the products as a gift for your support. If it crashes and burns then your money yes with it.

Think of it like backing any new company (ala dragons den) but instead of a monetary return on your investment you get a product.


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## Dylan

big dan said:


> Interesting video debunking the whole rest your coffee issue;


That video didn't seem to do any debunking at all... just another guys opinion on the internet, which is funny, as thats exactly where he seems to think his resting coffee "myth" comes from.


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## froggystyle

Ok, so two options below.

Why would you take the second option for the same price £500, you dont get any green beans.

Makes no sense!



Pledge £500 or more *10 backers **All gone!*

*EARLY BIRD* IKAWA Home Roaster plus 1 year's supply of green coffee beans.

Top quality coffee from 6 iconic origins with recommended roast recipes. 12 packs of 250g green coffee in total.

Estimated retail: £810

European Union - Shipping £25

Rest of World - Free Shipping

*Estimated delivery: **Feb 2016*

*Ships anywhere in the world*






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*Select this reward*

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*Pledge £500 or more* *34 backers **Limited (41 left of 75)*
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***KICKSTARTER SPECIAL* IKAWA Home Roaster*
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**Estimated retail: £750 *
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European Union - Shipping £25 *
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Rest of World - Free Shipping*
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**Estimated delivery: **Feb 2016*
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## Dylan

The "Early bird" offers are for people who get to the project first, and as a reward for backing it before the masses have decided its a good idea you get extra stuff or a better price. Most early bird offers will have a higher discount than the next tier up for the same thing. But they are limited in numbers, as you can see they are all gone.


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## froggystyle

Anyhooo, i think the roaster is a great little thing for someone who wants to dip into home roasting but not rely on it, maybe just a couple of roasts a week.

The price though for me is way out of sync, that's the cost of two genes, yes i understand this has a smaller footprint and can be hidden away easily, but i don't believe its worth the extra £400.

Be interested to see if anyone gets one though and how it performs.


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## big dan

I agree that the retail price is a little high compared to the Gene but at the early bird price it is only just a little bit more so i can justify paying £450 but not £750. Definitely interested to try it out if it gets backed.

I'm also interested to test freshly roasted coffee so i can play with resting/degassing the coffee for myself.

Currenltly at £69k funded out of £80k so looking promising that this will get funded.


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## 4515

Nice idea but the 50g capacity would put me off

I'd need to run the machine daily which I cant see happening

Home roasting interests me a little but the limitation on capacity would drive me mad

I'm sure it will work well for others but I'm out


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## DavidBondy

I have a feeling that you have to use their beans although I am unable to recall where I read that but it would be a deal breaker for me! David


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## froggystyle

DavidBondy said:


> I have a feeling that you have to use their beans although I am unable to recall where I read that but it would be a deal breaker for me! David


Cant see that, how would they even know what beans you were using in the machine....


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## Steve7

It's a fancy popcorn popper machine?

it may have got round the temperature issues, with some degree of control, but it still spits out next to nothing.

For the cost of the machine you could cover postage for roasted ages for ages. Hard to make sense of why you would roast such tiny amounts other than for the hell of it.

This is would be great if the price of green was a lot less than roasted, but nowadays you can buy fresh roast for not much more. This is one reason my hottop isn't as active, and having experimented with a popcorn machine the low yield was what killed any interest and pushed me into buying the bigger machine.

Scaled up to 250g this would be ideal, but then it would be a lot harder to make it reliable. And not this thing!


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## Mrboots2u

DavidBondy said:


> I have a feeling that you have to use their beans although I am unable to recall where I read that but it would be a deal breaker for me! David


 they will provide beans and recipes and roasts but i dont think the machine is Drm or locked down to one supplier ( not from the stuff i have read on it , i could be mistaken though )

From kickstarter

"*1. Roast your coffee like a professional: IKAWA Coffee is supplied with a recommended roast recipe, each recipe perfectly tailored to bring out the best flavours of different coffee beans. The IKAWA Home Roaster will work with any green coffee, not just the beans we supply."*

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## Dylan

DRM coffee beans... haha


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## Mrboots2u

Dylan said:


> DRM coffee beans... haha


keurig 2.0


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## froggystyle

Does each bean have a barcode?


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## DavidBondy

I think it was a type of pre-processing of the bean that Lakeland did a year or two back which reduced the smoke.

If you tried to use non-processed beans in the Lakeland one, you were likely to have a fire and invalidate any warranty.

This really was not meant to be a stupid observation and I'm glad that you can use any bean!

Personally, at 50g load - I'm out!


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## big dan

DRM Beans, love it! No any beans can be used but they are trying to get the whole chain going from Farm, to them to you and then re-invest 10% back to the farms. So any beans will do but they will provide profiles for their own beans!

I thought green beans were still considerably cheaper. I have found Kenyan AA (my favourite) beans for around £12 a kilo from wholesalers. Thats a lot cheaper than £6 for a 250g bag of roasted beans!

Here is my way of justifying any coffee related purchase:

Cost of beans is £6 (average) X bags consumed per month is 8 = £46 per moth or £576 per annum for 24kg of roasted coffee

Cost of green beans is £9.40 (from Pennine) for 1kg, assuming output from green is approx 80% then 30kg green coffee (to output 24kg roasted) is £282, a saving of £294

So in 2 years my the savings would have paid for the cost of the roaster on Kickstarter! FYI i have had my Rocket Espresso for 2 years now and that has almost paid for itself!

As far as 50g load goes, it is a little small but if i have a pourover in the morning then i can roast fresh and then still a second load on whilst enjoying my cuppa. Assuming around 20g for my pourover i would yield 80g spare each day which soon adds up if you want to leave some to rest for espresso etc. It feels this machine is more suited to a daily use rather than the roast in bulk and consumer before it goes stale which we are all used to. Just one more thing to add to the coffee ritual. Better set my alarm another 30 mins earlier! lol


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## Rob1

big dan said:


> Basically it is a small roaster for home use which connects to an app via bluetooth so you can create your own roast profiles. Roast time can be from 3-10 minutes and there can be up to 5 profile points in the roast.


I don't have vast experience with roasters at all, in fact I'm limited only to just over a year with the Gene Cafe, but I have done a hell of a lot of reading on profiles and roasting methods. Length and method of roast influences flavours, and I've heard a lot of contradictory information regarding what is ideal with regards to the profile -- so it seems the profile varies from roaster to roaster for the same results, and desired results probably vary just as much -- but one thing that everything I've read has in common is that roasts shorter than 7 minutes are bad.

The quoted 3-10 minute roast time is alarming to me. Does it mean that at 10 minutes, no matter what profile you use you'll end up with lumps of charcoal or is 10 minutes the point when second crack ends? It seems odd to imply there's such a short maximum roast time. Does the machine automatically shut off after 10 minutes regardless of roast depth? If the answer to the latter is yes then I'd have serious concerns with the ability of the machine to roast back to back without cooling as there may be a risk to damaging components (though repeatability due to a varying starting temp would be a concern anyway).

One the of the things that made the Gene Cafe so popular was that it's a combination drum and air roaster, whereas this seems to be a pure air roaster. My understanding is that this is good for acidity, but bad for body, and may not be suitable for espresso.



> Only 50g output - I don't see the problem here to be honest. I usually make one or 2 cups in a session and 50g is more than enough for this. Also as you are roasting a smaller amount it may only take 5 mins to roast your coffee so doing a few runs back to back isn't hard or particularly time consuming.


I'm not too sure about your logic here. It's possible to roast a large quantity of beans within three minutes if exposed to hot enough air but you'll have an uneven roast, with beans not roasted evenly to the centre, and outer edges scorched. Smaller batches won't necessarily equate to shorter roasting times as far as I'm aware. Coffee needs time to develop while roasting and drawing out or pushing through different stages will result in vastly different tastes -- will this machine be able to provide that level of control?

Also, it's worth bearing in mind that capacity will likely change with the size of the beans and processing methods (e.g. Dry or wet). The Gene Cafe is quoted capacity of about 300g but most people find that to be an overstatement and use something like 220-230g, and with a chaffy bean this could drop as low as 210g. There's no doubt you can roast 300g in the Gene, but it probably wouldn't be very consistent, so it's considering if this roaster be similar in this regard.

Finally, how will your consumption of coffee change in the future? You might find you need to do three or four roasts back to back if you want a couple of espressos for yourself and any company you have. Would you trust this roaster enough to set it going and leave it unattended?


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## froggystyle

Some good points there Rob!


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## big dan

Hi Rob,

I don't think i made myself clear on my logic so thought i would explain a little more!

Ikawa have updated their FAQs and comments saying that their experience is that as they are using a smaller dose the roast times tend to be a little shorter and 10 minutes is more than enough time to bring beans to 2nd crack. They have said that if users want longer roast times that they will update the app. The 10 minutes is what they have decided to set the maximum limit but they aren't saying it will produce charcoal after 10 mins. Just that with a lower volume the roast time is decreased.

Secondly regarding the 50g output I meant that if it takes less than 10 minutes to roast i could easily roast back to back to create more batches not that i would do a 3 minute roast to speed things up. I just meant once i have a profile i like loaded into the machine i can easily run 2 or 3 roasts one evening or morning. Ikawa have stated one of their tests will be to run 1200 roasting cycles back to back to test durability of the machine, so there shouldn't be any worries about running back to back cycles. I can probably explain this best with an example. I work nights and get up around 10pm and then go to work at midnight. While i am up and waiting for my espresso machine to warm up i could easily run 2 or 3 roast cycles to produce circa 150g of roasted beans. I will probably only use about 35g of this so the rest will go in a container. If I do this each day i will always have a little back up of beans and then at the weekend i stop roasting and use the remaining beans that are left which will still be less than a week old. Perfect and it means i have some spare for guests etc and i can also experiment with resting coffee to see how much difference to taste resting the coffee has.

I hope that all makes sense! Whilst i don't think the Ikawa Home Roaster is the be all and end all it is a niche product that would fit into my specialist needs perfectly as a guy living on his own in a smallish 1 bed flat.

One other thing i would mention is that when the Pro roaster was first announced back in 2012 i followed this with interest and Ikawa would send regular emails asking questions around what we would like to see in home version, price points etc. So they have been planning this for a while and the Pro roaster seems to have been successful so it seems like a lot of time and effort and has gone into making this and doing it right, otherwise i would never have backed the idea on Kickstarter.


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## froggystyle

ikawa

30 minutes to roast 150g, cost of machine £700+

Gene

40 minutes to roast 460g, cost of roaster £320

I understand the footprint is less, and the ikawa has the profile logging on your smart device, but you can easily achieve a profile on the gene by writing down what you did and follow it.


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## Rob1

You can modify a gene with a pid and raspberry pi to save profiles too, if you can be bothered with that.

I've just done the dimmer mod and I'm happy to hold it at 800w for two minutes, increase to 900w for 1 minute then up to 1000, stepping up gradually to 1200 before dropping down to 900 sometime after onset of first crack. It's pretty easy after cupping or pulling an espresso to then see if you need to spend more time drying the beans (if for no other reason than to decrease acidity without caramelisation), or draw out first crack/help it along by dropping to 900w earlier/later. Then there's the question of time between cracks which can be altered, obviously, with the drop down being increased or decreased around 900w (which I find holds temp steady at 236/7c on the readout). And I haven't mentioned Maillard reactions, stretching out time between yellow and first crack which I tend to no longer do.

This would all be tricky/impossible to do IMO on an unmodified gene which blasts full temp and shuts off the heating element periodically.

Anyway, back on topic.

Dan,

Sounds like you've got your mind made up. Good luck to you, I hope the manufacturer doesn't disappoint in their promises.


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## big dan

I always wanted a Gene but size and lack of venting stopped me! Love all the mods you can do sounds awesome!


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## Rob1

I think with mods you might be able to do a 100g batch. I've read a post from somebody here who said it was difficult to control heat and because the bean mass was so small they ended up coasting into French Roast on the cooling cycle. If my logic is correct, in controlling the power of the heating element rather than the temp it cycles off, you should be able to roast smaller batches without a problem. And bigger batches too...

I'll try that out later actually (the smaller batches). It'll be nice not to have to roast 230g of beans to see if it tastes good in a certain profile when you've only got 1kg to play with.

A thing to consider with the Ikawa is the availability of spare parts. Electronics can go, and the heating element will need replacing eventually, maybe the fan too.

Follow up:

In just roasted 100g. The roast progressed almost identically to the larger batch size but running 100 watts lower (1100 vs 1200). Temp readout and bean colour e.g 222c when beans turn yellow (I record temps every 30 seconds) were the identical. I was able to successfully draw out first crack for two minutes by dropping power 30 seconds in to first crack (start of rolling), which I was unable to do on a larger batch with the same drop down power. The only thing that concerned me was the time it took to reach first crack from yellowing suggesting I should use more energy to push beans up to temp before cutting back slightly when beans brown.

Will post pic later but roast is mostly even at City + to Full City.


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## Minorstep

Little thing looks promising and I love the in-app profiles, but I don't think I'd like to roast every 1-2 days. I'd like to roast around 200-250g per week, once, and drink my home roasted coffee of the week.


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## froggystyle

Some updates to this...

They have released two versions.

1. Home version @ £600 for basic roaster or £650 with 3kg of green beans, which is a poor price unless the beans are very very high end beans!

http://www.ikawacoffee.com/about

2. Professional version @ £2200 (not confirmed on site but read elsewhere) This version is aimed at the sample roasting market.

http://www.ikawacoffee.com/professional/

Now thats a huge difference, what do you get extra though as both some with an app, but i would imagine they are not equal, are the insides of the machines any different...

Who is going to shell out the £600 and review then?


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Who is going to shell out the £600 and review then?


lol, yeah I shall be waiting to read any reviews from members...the green coffee...what a rip off 50 for 3 kg of what look to be fairly ordinary beans. I think the roaster will be absolutely rubbish and simply doesn't make any sense with either the price point or the miniscule batch size. If it roasts 50g of green this equates to 41.5g of roasted product, or enough for 2 double shots with a few grams of coffee left over.....ridiculous! in fact you could burn away a complete roast simply dialling in your grinder. Next they will be selling miniature heat resealable bags (45g) to keep/sell your roasts.


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## froggystyle

Agreed, for the home user it just doesnt stack up, at all.

However for a sample roaster in a roastery?? Have seen someone is using one already and swears by it, but i just struggle to see what is included for the £1600 difference.


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Agreed, for the home user it just doesnt stack up, at all.
> 
> However for a sample roaster in a roastery?? Have seen someone is using one already and swears by it, but i just struggle to see what is included for the £1600 difference.


I don't even see how, as a sample roaster it makes sense?

1. If I have a 25kg probat, or 5kg Toper how does a roast from this bear any relation to the big roaster

2. Profile on the Ikawa is meaningless for most big roasters as they don't have modulating burners and can't really do much with their profiles.

3. bean colour is also meaningless on the Ikawa, as it won't equate to the same bean colour on a larger roaster achieved in a different profile/time. (think dodgem car and 20 ton truck)

4. 43g isn't really enough to cup properly, as you might want to do it over a few days in more than one session.

All the computer wizadry and apps for this little thing is not going to help when roasting 5kg plus batches....it's a toy for those with too much money and possibly, not enough knowledge. They would be far better off sample roasting in a Gene with my mods on it....or a Quest M3....even then their large roasters are still going to react quite a bit differently..


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## Dylan

I have no desire to own this whatsoever, but just to play devils advocate a bit...

If you were experimenting with blends surely having the ability to roast a small amount and try it has its advantages? The roasts are short so if you need to double up your batch for cupping when you are getting close to what you want it can be done.

On a Gene or a Quest can you do smaller batches if you want, or is there a lower limit?


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## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> I have no desire to own this whatsoever, but just to play devils advocate a bit...
> 
> If you were experimenting with blends surely having the ability to roast a small amount and try it has its advantages? The roasts are short so if you need to double up your batch for cupping when you are getting close to what you want it can be done.
> 
> On a Gene or a Quest can you do smaller batches if you want, or is there a lower limit?


Dylan, I'm going to completely love your suggestion and totally agree with you in the hope that a member here gets one and provides us an independent review/viewpoint.


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## Dylan

I thought it was a question


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## froggystyle

Guess we will see if anyone has the balls to buy one next feb!

I shall pass.


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## "coffee 4/1"

from the start of ikawa i was very keen, as i prefer air roast coffee,on using my modded £5 popper 120gm up to 18min roasts, still going well for a year now, at the ikawa price i can get a lot of popper replacements,think i pass on the ikawa.

as froggy say's hope someone buys,


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## Rob1

Didn't @big dan go for one over kickstarter?


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## big dan

Rob1 said:


> Didn't @big dan go for one over kickstarter?


Yes I did! Delivery in feb so I will post review then! Didn't know you could mention a user that's cool!

Like I said before not for everyone but I have limited space in my 1 bed flat and if I can roast 50g in 10 minutes then it's no problem for me to run a few roasts back to back then there is no issue really! I make 1 espresso before work and a few CCDs at work which is about 50g. So all I need to do is roast 2 batches on Sunday and then do a roast every day or so and I have plenty of beans to keep me going.

One of the updates from Ikawa said they wanted to run a 100+ roast test so that the home roaster can be used back to back if desired. 1.hour at the weekend would give you circa 300g of roasted beans!

I understand people's reservations but there seems to be a lot of haters for this product. I think it's a good niche product and hope it works well! I got mine for £450. The cost saving in buying green beans means the machine has paid for itself in 18 months! Much like the cost of my Rocket has been recouped by not buying coffee from coffee shops in the morning over the last 3 years.

Please let me know how you would like me to review it and if forum members want I will even roast a green bean of your choosing and post the roasted beans our for comparison to anyone that owns a different roaster!

?


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## The Systemic Kid

Definitely post a review - video clip would be nice as well.


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## "coffee 4/1"

looking forward to this big dan vids/pics the works, would like to see a inside of bean cut with razor, when your ready of course


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## big dan

Well i have quite a wait until the product is delivered! So i will compile a list of all the requests here so come feb i can refer to it!

-Photos and Videos of roaster in action

-Cross Section of bean after roasting pic

-comparison of bean roasted on Ikawa compared to a commercially roasted bean (hoping to find someone that sells the same been in green and roasted to check!)


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## hartshay

Any news on this one?


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## froggystyle

Had a look at it on Saturday at Cup North, looks nice, ideal for the roaster who wants to do small qtys on the kitchen worktop without the need for an exhaust pipe.

Price, crazy, think he mentioned over £3k!

They are working on the home user version that will be around £600, the differences are that the thermometer is not looking at bean temp, more input temp, the pro version looks at bean temp.

Plus it does not have the app connection either.

I wont be buying one.


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## Dylan

Is that £3k for this tiny little home roaster Froggy?

The retail price from Kickstarter was £750 (but £500 for backers)


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## froggystyle

Yep, might have been £2k, but for some reason £3k sticks in my mind for the pro version.

Crazy money!


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## Dylan

froggystyle said:


> Yep, might have been £2k, but for some reason £3k sticks in my mind for the pro version.
> 
> Crazy money!


I think the kickstarter one must be the non-pro one then right?


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## froggystyle

The fella on the stall said the pro one is out, the home user one is not out yet...

Either/either both are way overpriced.


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## Dylan

That would be an incredible jump on the RRP from kickstarter, from £750 to £3k! Which is why I was assuming it must be the non-pro version.

I seem to remember something about a pro version from previous discussion, that was aimed at roasters for testing out roasts... I could be making that up tho.


----------



## froggystyle

I think, may be wrong, the kickstarter backers get the home version, which is soon to be released?


----------



## Dylan

Seems odd for the pro one to come out first, if they got their start from kickstarter. But I dont doubt it if thats what the rep told ya!


----------



## Coffeejon

froggystyle said:


> The fella on the stall said the pro one is out, the home user one is not out yet...
> 
> Either/either both are way overpriced.


I agree! I asked, the pro was £2500+VAT & the home £600! I told them it should be more £200-400 then I might consider one. Crazy price.


----------



## big dan

Just an update on this one peeps. After some issues it looks like the home roaster is going to be shipped in January 2017. I will be sure to add some comments and reviews when I receive mine.

Looking to see if I can find the same beans roasted and green so I can test the Ikawa against a professional roast. Any suggestions ?


----------



## ShortShots

I've used the pro version quite a few times and it was fantastic for profiling and roasting arrival samples or pre ship. I can't comment on the home one sadly but if it has the same build quality and app features of the pro then I think its pretty cool. Although for home users 50g isn't very much, perfect if you're just cupping though haha. Definitely keep us posted on your thoughts once ya get it.

PS- resting time is NOT a myth. I cup our coffee every day and often straight out of the roaster and I assure you there is a difference in taste


----------



## Coffeejon

big dan said:


> Looking to see if I can find the same beans roasted and green so I can test the Ikawa against a professional roast. Any suggestions ?


If your in brighton, ask Small Batch, I'm sure they could provide you with greens to compare with a roast they sell


----------



## big dan

Good shout Coffeejon, or I could try red roasters I guess! Will pop in and ask!


----------



## Ramrod

Yup, I got an email from IKAWA recently saying that they expected to start shipping the home version in "early 2017".

Looking forward to mine


----------



## Coffeejon

wow,I was wrong. The home version will retail at £1200.... holy moly. You guys who bought them, please let us know if it's worth anywhere near this price


----------



## 4085

did @Glenn ever get to trial this roaster? I understand we are all different but when was the last time anyone went to the pub and bought 15 mls of Carlsberg?


----------



## MWJB

It would probably be the best 15ml in the World though...


----------



## 4085

MWJB said:


> It would probably be the best 15ml in the World...


Ha, lets change that to Youngers Tartan then!


----------



## Glenn

Due to scheduling no, but I have had some hands on time on the pro version.

It's a nice sample roaster and ideal as a lab tool.


----------



## 4085

Glenn said:


> Due to scheduling no, but I have had some hands on time on the pro version.
> 
> It's a nice sample roaster and ideal as a lab tool.


Is that another way of saying perhaps not for the home user then?


----------



## Hal.E.Lujah

I really love these, but if I'm being brutally honest I don't think they're going to be able to compete with the cheap and cheerful roasters that you can get from alibaba / a stockist. I've got two of the Gene Cafe roasters for my sample roasting, and they're just perfect for £300 each. How anyone can justify spending thousands on the IKAWA for home use or pro use is beyond me.


----------



## Stanic

Really nice and interesting device


----------



## Step21

Hal.E.Lujah said:


> I really love these, but if I'm being brutally honest I don't think they're going to be able to compete with the cheap and cheerful roasters that you can get from alibaba / a stockist. I've got two of the Gene Cafe roasters for my sample roasting, and they're just perfect for £300 each. How anyone can justify spending thousands on the IKAWA for home use or pro use is beyond me.


2 x £300 = £600 for your sample roasters

I will be paying £600 for mine (price at time of ordering). There's plenty of more expensive coffee kit out there than this, some of which is on your list. You do what you want with your money and i'll do likewise. Justification is irrelevant. You may see it as poor value for money. Many do. That is the common opinion posted on this thread.

If i wanted to roast 1kg or 300g i wouldn't be buying it. It is clearly intended for low volume home users, it makes no secret about it. Never has. 2 years on and its low capacity/high price still seems to cause shock. I don't think i've come across such negativity for a product on this forum. It's almost as if some wish it to fail. Surely not?


----------



## 4085

I gave up home roasting after 10 years or so at it. The main reason was that I could not consistently reproduce a roast as good as you can buy. The point has been made that the output on this is very small. Whether you can consistently repeat the results we will have to wait and see. Perhaps you wish to stand and roast small amounts on a regular basis. We are all different.

When something new comes to the market you can only measure it against the opposition. It might make people eat their words, but somehow I doubt it. Please keep us informed


----------



## MWJB

The one thing those that have used it are saying is that it is very repeatable.

What is the output? For a 3min roast how much do you need to roast at a time?


----------



## 4085

The more I see and read, the more bonkers I think this is (ignoring early adopters). The price is just spiralling with them now suggesting retail will be £1250 for a home roaster with a 100 gm output. I am dying to hear people defend it, I really am! The Pro thing is different as it is just a business tool.


----------



## MWJB

100g a day from a roaster you can use on a kitchen worktop doesn't seem so bad?


----------



## 4085

MWJB said:


> 100g a day from a roaster you can use on a kitchen worktop doesn't seem so bad?


Have not done the maths, but if you roast 5 times a week thats 500 gms less shrinkage. Bearing in mind unless you are doing brewed you will have to rest it for say 3 days minimum. Your 100 gms will net roughly 83 gms which at 18 gms per shot is 4.6 shots per roast. You then have to factor in dialling in which if you are using the same bean/varietal will only be now and then. You have shelled out £1250 to let you do this.

The principle of home roasting applies to whatever kit you use but it seems an arduous way of doing it when you can get larger output proven roasters. The bluetooth electronics are very interesting but unless you have a wealth of home roasting knowledge, are meaningless as you will have to no idea what tweeks to make to try and enhance

Let us be quite clear. I am suggesting that if this did 200 to 250 gms then it would be more plausible


----------



## Step21

We need to dissociate output from cost. It is on roast quality any judgement should be made. It is not easily comparable to anything currently on the market. IIRC the output is 50g per roast not 100g unless they have made changes to original spec.

The increased cost is due to the low value of sterling (thanks Brexit) and the decision to build them in London rather than Asia.

I'm not sure when they will start shipping - supposedly end Jan, but we'll see.

I've had enough of the pre judgement. When I get one I'll post my thoughts .


----------



## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> Have not done the maths, but if you roast 5 times a week thats 500 gms less shrinkage. Bearing in mind unless you are doing brewed you will have to rest it for say 3 days minimum. Your 100 gms will net roughly 83 gms which at 18 gms per shot is 4.6 shots per roast. You then have to factor in dialling in which if you are using the same bean/varietal will only be now and then. You have shelled out £1250 to let you do this.
> 
> The principle of home roasting applies to whatever kit you use but it seems an arduous way of doing it when you can get larger output proven roasters. The bluetooth electronics are very interesting but unless you have a wealth of home roasting knowledge, are meaningless as you will have to no idea what tweeks to make to try and enhance
> 
> Let us be quite clear. I am suggesting that if this did 200 to 250 gms then it would be more plausible


You said 100g "output".

I thought you would be able to download proven profiles from via the app?


----------



## 4085

MWJB said:


> You said 100g "output".
> 
> I thought you would be able to download proven profiles from via the app?


Mark, if I cannot even get the output right, would you want to download a profile I had uploaded!


----------



## Step21

IKAWA are going to supply greens and recipes(programs) for recommended roasts. There will be a community sharing roast ideas etc... so we'll not be in the dark


----------



## 4085

Step21 said:


> When I get one I'll post my thoughts .


Which brings it back full circle to whether or not the home version can produce something akin to a professional roaster, which after all, is the whole point


----------



## Step21

You need to get over the cost/volume issue. It is irrelevant - this is a hobbyist toy.

You can make similar cost per shot comparison between a £500 espresso machine and a £5000 one. You'd hope the expensive machine would give a better shot. It might or it might not.


----------



## Step21

dfk41 said:


> Which brings it back full circle to whether or not the home version can produce something akin to a professional roaster, which after all, is the whole point


Yes but the pre judgement on this thread already has told us that is not possible. "Told you so" is just bursting to get out


----------



## 4085

Step21 said:


> Yes but the pre judgement on this thread already has told us that is not possible. "Told you so" is just bursting to get out


Step, told you so is not a term I use. I have no more idea than you if this will actually work or not, therefore I cannot tell you. I hope it works. It ought to if you believe the info they tell you and they already have the benefit of having produced the Pro one. I like the concept and the looks and if the price had been around the £3 to £400 range might have bought one. I am not hung up on price in as much as how can a £500 product be as good as a £5000 which aims to do the same.

We are all different with different values. I really do hope that it is as good as those who have bought hope for. I would not expect you to tell us it is not very good because who does......fingers crossed


----------



## Step21

"We are all different with different values. I really do hope that it is as good as those who have bought hope for. I would not expect you to tell us it is not very good because who does......fingers crossed"

I would not expect an impartial review from me - you are no doubt correct about that - but no more or less so than the naysayers on this thread. However, once I get used to it and confident that the roasts are decent (hopefully better), I would be happy to post out samples for anyone interested.

I'm unlikely to do decaf though - sorry!


----------



## Coffeejon

I think it's a great idea & looks A great machine. I would love one as a sample roaster but it was about £2500 (pro version)when I asked.

My thought is it's trying to be a kitchen appliance (non pro version) which I'd happily pay £200-400. I just wonder how big a market they think there is for a £1250 kitchen appliance? I really hope they pull it off, as hopfully it may later come down in price. I'm not sure though....


----------



## jable1066

It honestly seems like a lot of people are really missing the point? This is clearly an enthusiasts toy.

With regard to output - who cares? If you don't want to buy it, don't buy it. If roasting 50g of coffee does not appeal to you... then don't buy this roaster. It is quite clearly intended for people who *are* interested in roasting at home, in small quantity. People who are seduced by the fact you can profile and use an app etc. It is quite sexy and I can see why this appeals.

The price is even fairly irrelevant. Spending £15k on a KVdW is hardly justifiable is it? Spending £100k on a car, that is hardly justifiable. People buy things because they want them. They don't have to justify the price. I've seen peoples signatures of this forum detailing home espresso set ups that rival what I use commercially! If not exceed it. Is it necessary? Hardly.

So why is this product receiving so much hate when a lot of people direct it at the price and output? I don't get why people are trying to work out the value of buying this bit of kit in monetary terms. I can't remember working out a logical cost value analysis on my action men when I was a kid? You buy cool sh*t, because you want it.

I wish them all the success in the world. They've come up with what seems like an intuitive product, which is probably fairly well placed in today's specialty coffee market. People aren't scared to flash a bit of cash at gucci products. Just look at the fact people are willing to spend nearly £200 on a set of scales!! Or the fact that people are willing to don their lab coats and spend £600 on a bloody refractometer! The whole industry is madness. Just enjoy it. Or don't.

I'm out though, and I shall not be buying one.

JB


----------



## peld

did this ever get off the ground?


----------



## Step21

peld said:


> did this ever get off the ground?


Latest update suggests mid March


----------



## Hal.E.Lujah

jable1066 said:


> It honestly seems like a lot of people are really missing the point? This is clearly an enthusiasts toy.
> 
> With regard to output - who cares? If you don't want to buy it, don't buy it. If roasting 50g of coffee does not appeal to you... then don't buy this roaster. It is quite clearly intended for people who *are* interested in roasting at home, in small quantity. People who are seduced by the fact you can profile and use an app etc. It is quite sexy and I can see why this appeals.
> 
> The price is even fairly irrelevant. Spending £15k on a KVdW is hardly justifiable is it? Spending £100k on a car, that is hardly justifiable. People buy things because they want them. They don't have to justify the price. I've seen peoples signatures of this forum detailing home espresso set ups that rival what I use commercially! If not exceed it. Is it necessary? Hardly.
> 
> So why is this product receiving so much hate when a lot of people direct it at the price and output? I don't get why people are trying to work out the value of buying this bit of kit in monetary terms. I can't remember working out a logical cost value analysis on my action men when I was a kid? You buy cool sh*t, because you want it.
> 
> I wish them all the success in the world. They've come up with what seems like an intuitive product, which is probably fairly well placed in today's specialty coffee market. People aren't scared to flash a bit of cash at gucci products. Just look at the fact people are willing to spend nearly £200 on a set of scales!! Or the fact that people are willing to don their lab coats and spend £600 on a bloody refractometer! The whole industry is madness. Just enjoy it. Or don't.
> 
> I'm out though, and I shall not be buying one.
> 
> JB


I see your logic, but these are targeted at people running a coffee roasting business just as much as home users, and it's fair to say that the amount is far above what one would typically look at for a sample roaster.

I had the privilege of looking at these in their showroom the other day, and seeing them in action made me realise that they're very useful for test roasting mainly because of the attached app. I didn't really think about this factor before I'd seen it in action - it really is a very effective tool for training roasters and for trying some slightly different roast profiles out with precision. If they get this to link to cropster / translate to big roasters, this will become a 100% required tool for every high grade roaster in the world. The very low emissions / low noise are also worth mentioning, as it means you can have it at your desk and it won't cause problems.

All in all I'm hoping to pick one up once funds allow by the end of the year. I really think it will help me fine tune my sampling.


----------



## Step21

Latest update suggests kickstarter backers will get their roasters in May/June. Probably July before pre-orders start shipping.

At least the end seems to be in sight. Original date was Feb 2016....

Progress!


----------



## Ramrod

That's pretty much what the guy on the Ikawa stand told me a couple of weeks ago at the London Coffee Festival.


----------



## Step21

Ramrod said:


> That's pretty much what the guy on the Ikawa stand told me a couple of weeks ago at the London Coffee Festival.


Did you get a chance to taste any roasted beans from it?


----------



## Ramrod

Yep but I can't remember what I got given









I should be getting my pre-ordered home roaster July/August.

I pre bought mine for £600 but I see that they are now selling them for £1200!!


----------



## ShortShots

our barista just received his home one today


----------



## Step21

Was he a kickstarter backer?

Be good to hear his initial impressions.


----------



## darkroast

Mine arrived today.... I was a kickstarter backer. Need to get some green beans for a tester session.


----------



## big dan

Hello all! I too have received my Ikawa Home Roaster and i am very pleased!

I will try and post a video review at some point. It works really well, the roasts are easily edited and saved in the app and I have had some delicious beans from it so far.

For me this was a steal as i paid £450 for a really nice bit of kit. At £1,250 i think it is out of most people's budget unless they have a lot of spare cash.

I can't really compare it to anything else as i haven't owned a roaster before. However if anyone wants to test this i would be happy to run a test by roasting some green beans and then posting to another user with some of the same green beans that they can roast in another roaster for comparison.

I really need to learn more about roast profiles, and the curve as at the moment apart from just using the existing suggested recipes i am just stabbing in the dark.


----------



## Step21

big dan said:


> Hello all! I too have received my Ikawa Home Roaster and i am very pleased!
> 
> I will try and post a video review at some point. It works really well, the roasts are easily edited and saved in the app and I have had some delicious beans from it so far.
> 
> For me this was a steal as i paid £450 for a really nice bit of kit. At £1,250 i think it is out of most people's budget unless they have a lot of spare cash.
> 
> I can't really compare it to anything else as i haven't owned a roaster before. However if anyone wants to test this i would be happy to run a test by roasting some green beans and then posting to another user with some of the same green beans that they can roast in another roaster for comparison.
> 
> I really need to learn more about roast profiles, and the curve as at the moment apart from just using the existing suggested recipes i am just stabbing in the dark.


Did you get the greens from Ikawa with suggested profiles?


----------



## big dan

I had some but not the whole starter pack and was good but I also had good results with other green beans too.


----------



## Step21

Sounds good. What are the average roast times for a batch? 40g max?


----------



## MatthewBw

Wishing I had backed the kickstarter now. The projected retail price was such I didn't want to risk it for a few hundred quid (had a few kick starters fail) I had another look at the site recently 1200 now wow can't see them selling many of those to folks like me (curious about roasting but not invested yet). I'll keep my eyes open for a gene cafe maybe.

I can't decide if the small batch size is a good or bad thing.


----------



## darkroast

That's a very sound analysis - I was one of the kickstarter backers and have had mine for a few weeks. It's great build quality, but it's really just another bit of kit that I lived very happily without for decades. It's fun and I like the process of roasting etc. Etc. I couldn't justify the £1250 that people mention, but am happy I signed up early doors. I'm slightly obsessive when it comes to design objects, and as a result I've got some very nice kit. But, in the same way that my slide gets me from A to B the same as a 100k car would, I don't think my coffee is better than anyone else's on the forum.


----------



## darkroast

That meant to say Skoda, not slide! Damned predictive writing....


----------



## Dormouse

MatthewBw said:


> I can't decide if the small batch size is a good or bad thing.


It's an obviously bad thing if you're wedded to the idea of doing batches on a roasting day.But very good if you want to enjoy your coffee at its peak.The lack of smoke/smell and neat size means you can have it in the kitchen and do a roast when you brew. No need to clean, seconds to dispose of the chaff.I was worried about the size originally, but attracted by the lack of smell. But now the size seems perfect and timesaving compared to batch roasting though I've had to adjust the way I do things (eggs more, but much smaller, containers).


----------



## Ramrod

Got mine this week and have roasted the 50g bag that it came with. Really easy to use.

Not had a chance to try my usual beans (from HasBean) yet. That'll be when the fun starts.


----------



## nonickch

So any news regarding this?

I checked out the website a month or two ago and it was the usual useless eyecandy devoid of real information.

It is quite a sweet product, at least from my (newb) perspective. Highly controlled, repeatable roasts so I could (in theory) have a controlled learning curve? Sign me up!

With the price being quite insane, I had hoped that it'll sweep in and the price eventually drop.


----------



## Step21

nonickch said:


> So any news regarding this?
> 
> I checked out the website a month or two ago and it was the usual useless eyecandy devoid of real information.
> 
> It is quite a sweet product, at least from my (newb) perspective. Highly controlled, repeatable roasts so I could (in theory) have a controlled learning curve? Sign me up!
> 
> With the price being quite insane, I had hoped that it'll sweep in and the price eventually drop.


What do you want to know?

I don't think that the learning curve is any more controlled than any other roaster. Each is different. Most roasters in the home market are drum roasters. This is a cyclonic air roaster and needs its own different approach.

The main issue you may have (or not) is the 50g/60g batch size and whether that fits with the volume you want to roast. It is very expensive and I doubt the price will come down. It now retails at twice the price I paid for it.


----------



## nonickch

The repeatability and computerized control is what looked best in this from my perspective.

After looking at a few drum roasters were people were fiddling with gas valves, I quickly realized that this is more of an learned art rather than a controlled procedure. Is it true that the Ikawa does away with that part, or am I somehow disillusioned*?

Even professional roasters appear to have issues with repeatability of their roasts. I could set up a roast with this and be finished in the time it takes me to do my morning coffee routine, with minimal cleanup. And 50-60g is about my daily consumption, so I could ad-infinitum have coffee degassed for the exact same amount of days.

This in turn would take the entire coffee&roast part out of the coffee preparation equation, making the whole process even more controlled.

* I just noticed you mentioned this is no more controlled than any other roaster. I'm probably missing something here.


----------



## Step21

nonickch said:


> The repeatability and computerized control is what looked best in this from my perspective.
> 
> After looking at a few drum roasters were people were fiddling with gas valves, I quickly realized that this is more of an learned art rather than a controlled procedure. Is it true that the Ikawa does away with that part, or am I somehow disillusioned*?
> 
> Even professional roasters appear to have issues with repeatability of their roasts. I could set up a roast with this and be finished in the time it takes me to do my morning coffee routine, with minimal cleanup. And 50-60g is about my daily consumption, so I could ad-infinitum have coffee degassed for the exact same amount of days.
> 
> This in turn would take the entire coffee&roast part out of the coffee preparation equation, making the whole process even more controlled.
> 
> * I just noticed you mentioned this is no more controlled than any other roaster. I'm probably missing something here.


It is certainly easy to control. You create a profile via the app send it to the roaster via bluetooth. Load beans, press start and away it goes. When finished you remove the chaff jar and dispense the beans. Clean up is almost non existent. Every now and then give it a clean with a damp cloth. You can then run that profile ad infinitum if you want to. It is not odourless and needs ventilation via a window. There is no visible smoke but it does leave a burnt toast type aroma in the room. If you have a smoke alarm in the room it will go off. Very cold air from outside can cause it not to work.

I don't think any batch is identical due to the nature of the natural product and subsequent roasts may hit 1st crack a few seconds earlier if the roaster is pre warmed. Different batch sizes will also cause slight differences, so stick to the same one for consistency. I use 50g or as close to it as I can.

But when you roast a new bean you have to have some idea how to create a suitable profile for it. This part is no different from any other roaster. It won't magic you up the ideal roast. You need to learn how to use it to get what you want. This part is what I meant about your "controlled learning curve".

If you buy Ikawa greens you'll get a recommended profile to use with it and you can pick up other profiles other users have shared. Adapting these is probably the easiest way to get started making changes. But you will find that a profile for one say Columbian doesn't necessarily work that well with another. The Ikawa profiles are also on the light side which may not suit you but you can easily extend them.

Most of the info out there is to do with drum roasters and isn't very useful for the Ikawa. The generic stuff about roasting is.

I go through iterations of roast, evaluate, modify, roast, evaluate etc... until i get something good. Then I will try for better. Always tinkering.

There's loads of info over on the Ikawa hot air discussion board both from Ikawa and some users which might inform your decision more.


----------



## nonickch

Excellent, thanks for the info.

The controlled learning curve is what I consider the most important these days. I'm having issues with my basic coffee learning curve and right now I'm all about cutting variables.

I guess I'll come back and check what's going on in a year or two when I have a better handle on the situation.


----------



## Step21

nonickch said:


> Excellent, thanks for the info.
> 
> The controlled learning curve is what I consider the most important these days. I'm having issues with my basic coffee learning curve and right now I'm all about cutting variables.
> 
> I guess I'll come back and check what's going on in a year or two when I have a better handle on the situation.


The profiles made using the app are really just a series of editable data points. You can alter any data point up or down in 1C and 1 second increments. So you can make very minute changes and see what effect it has on the roast. Is this what you mean by a "controlled learning curve"?

If you know zilch about roasting it is informative to roast the Ikawa greens on their recommended profiles so you know what it is supposed to taste like, then tweak those profiles to see/taste what happens.


----------



## Sheena_Lance

I agree on this, this is the right attitude if you aim to have a great results, patience is also required though.



Step21 said:


> I go through iterations of roast, evaluate, modify, roast, evaluate etc... until i get something good. Then I will try for better. Always tinkering./QUOTE]


----------



## ajohn

I wondered about backing this but the quantity it will produce in one go put me off especially when I considered that keeping fresh roasted beans for several days or even longer according to some on particular beans improves them.

John

-


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> I wondered about backing this but the quantity it will produce in one go put me off especially when I considered that keeping fresh roasted beans for several days or even longer according to some on particular beans improves them.
> 
> John
> 
> -


But even if you roast more beans, you still would have to keep them for several days? It's only an issue if you use more on a daily basis that you can roast daily.


----------



## Coffeejon

Step21 said:


> The profiles made using the app are really just a series of editable data points. You can alter any data point up or down in 1C and 1 second increments. So you can make very minute changes and see what effect it has on the roast. Is this what you mean by a "controlled learning curve"?
> 
> If you know zilch about roasting it is informative to roast the Ikawa greens on their recommended profiles so you know what it is supposed to taste like, then tweak those profiles to see/taste what happens.


Can I ask, originally the 'home' version didn't allow you to change the profiles, I thought you had to use their coffee on it? Has this changed (as I thought only the pro version allow you to edit and save profiles) What does the pro do different then if this is the case? Thx


----------



## Step21

Coffeejon said:


> Can I ask, originally the 'home' version didn't allow you to change the profiles, I thought you had to use their coffee on it? Has this changed (as I thought only the pro version allow you to edit and save profiles) What does the pro do different then if this is the case? Thx


The Pro app is more advanced allowing more data points and live editing. The Pro allows longer roasts, I believe up to 20 mins? With the home 10 mins is the official maximum although 12 seems to be ok.

The placement of the temperature probe is different and may be of a higher quality on the Pro. So the Pro profiles are essentially exhaust profiles while the home is Input temperature. This makes the profiles incompatible between the two. As I understand it this was to put the probe in a more protected place.

It does make the home arguably more difficult to create successful profiles.

The Pro also automatically preheats to a desired temperature and then drops the beans into the chamber. The Home is intended to have the beans in the chamber from the start and preheats to 50C before beginning the profile. With the home you can create a profile which can run without the beans in the chamber and then manually drop the beans yourself which I sometimes do.

There are probably more differences but would need someone with a Pro to comment as I have never used one.

You can roast any bean on it. You have to supply/create the profile. Ikawa supply recommended profiles for their own greens but you don't need to use them. There are no restrictions.


----------



## nonickch

Step21 said:


> The profiles made using the app are really just a series of editable data points. You can alter any data point up or down in 1C and 1 second increments. So you can make very minute changes and see what effect it has on the roast. Is this what you mean by a "controlled learning curve"?
> 
> If you know zilch about roasting it is informative to roast the Ikawa greens on their recommended profiles so you know what it is supposed to taste like, then tweak those profiles to see/taste what happens.


That's the core of the idea.

If I can get identical results when using the same beans and the same profile, then I can isolate variables like "time" and "temperature" and toy with them one at a time. No human skill required, apart from designing the curve.

It is really frustrating not being able to do the same with espresso brewing.

As for the 10' limit on the home one and no pre-warming, that's something I actually missed. It sounds really disappointing.


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## mathof

nonickch said:


> If I can get identical results when using the same beans and the same profile, then I can isolate variables like "time" and "temperature" and toy with them one at a time. No human skill required, apart from designing the curve.
> 
> It is really frustrating not being able to do the same with espresso brewing.


I think the new Decent espresso machines promise the same kind of control.


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## ajohn

MWJB said:


> But even if you roast more beans, you still would have to keep them for several days? It's only an issue if you use more on a daily basis that you can roast daily.


It will just about do what I currently use myself a day. My doses seem to be lower than many Sage users, 16g. I sometimes make another 4 drinks a day for others.







I've escaped some of that for a while down to new machine and new bean supplier and haven't sorted a brew that suits my wife yet, normally another 1 or 2 a day *. My son usually does his own - another 1 or 2 a day.

Then comes keeping beans for a while. I'd need 5 or more small vented containers just for myself. I don't see that as viable. The minimum quantity as I see it to roast in one go is 250g out.

No doubt 50g suites some people but I'd suspect it doesn't suite many others. People could of course roast several batches of 50g one after another and get round this that way.

*Unfortunately the MM i drink now is stronger than it used to be.

John

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## Step21

nonickch said:


> As for the 10' limit on the home one and no pre-warming, that's something I actually missed. It sounds really disappointing.


The 10min "limit" is a recommendation not absolute. Seen quite a few 12min profiles and Ikawa themselves have posted ones longer than 10. You have to remember that with the small batch size the machine gets up to temperature very quickly. I think that it is more the app than the machine that is the limiting factor. Might be limiting if you intend to go to extremes of darkness I suppose.

The unit prewarms to 50C at time zero. You can manually drop the beans at any temperature if you wish, so that's not really an issue either.

As users we have been asking for some upgrades to the app. We'll see.

Ikawa will want to retain distinctive differences between the home and Pro versions. There is a big jump between them pricewise, so the Pro needs to have obvious advantages. Else why buy it?


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