# La Pav!



## MediumRoastSteam

Courtesy of CoffeeChap, I'm now a proud member of the lever club!

It looks like I've got a lot to learn though!

Hopefully the Niche comes soon, but for now the Feld2 will have to do


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## Jacko112

Looks great, I've the mirror machine from Jim. Enjoying it immensely!


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## khampal

Great little setup!


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## cloughy

Looking good!


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## Nopapercup

Nice, you'll enjoy learning to use it


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## Johnboy63

Looking great where can I get one ? Will it produce better espresso than my Rancillo Sylvia?


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## MildredM

Congratulations

















It looks fab!


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## MediumRoastSteam

Johnboy63 said:


> Looking great where can I get one ? Will it produce better espresso than my Rancillo Sylvia?


Personally, I don't know yet. It's just a different approach to it. I'm told once you get it right, it's great!

So, a straight swap doesn't mean you'll produce better espresso straight away or at all.


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## xpresso

Lovely looking machine and grinder not a large footprint for accommodation either, great stuff.

Jon.


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## MediumRoastSteam

New arrivals....

- Tamping stand made out of an old bed slat.

- @Norvin 's PF hopper

- MediumRoastSteam Distribution tool, with umbrella closed (made a comeback since the last thread about custom made distribution tools....)


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## ashcroc

MediumRoastSteam said:


> New arrivals....
> 
> - Tamping stand made out of an old bed slat.
> 
> - @Norvin 's PF hopper
> 
> - MediumRoastSteam Distribution tool, with umbrella closed (made a comeback since the last thread about custom made distribution tools....)


Loving the distribution tool. It really puts my tiny fork to shame!


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## Bmhillier2002

nothing beats the control on those machines. jealous


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## jonohmygosh

impressive setup mate!


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## MediumRoastSteam

Ordered a naked / bottomless PF from TheEspressoShop. Great service.

I didn't know this would make such a difference to the quality of my shots.

Until yesterday, I couldn't set on a routine, and volume was all over the place. Lock the PF with the lever up, or half way, lifting slowly, or all the way down, with flush before, all combinations. Usually the lever just felt spongy and the shot volume was not as much as I wanted.

So, with the bottomless:

- I figured out that the best way is to lift the lever up at normal speed.

- This is where I was going wrong: I was then leaving the lever parked in the upwards position assuming it would pre-infuse. (Remember, I couldn't see anything before). Now, I push the lever down a tad, very gently, until some coffee starts showing around the edges of the basket. Wait a couple of seconds and push the lever back up. You will notice the group filling up slightly and the lever becoming stiff (so no sponginess). This will definitely remove the air from the group and the shot volume was at the rate I wanted (15g in, 32g out without issues). Before I was getting sometimes 28g, sometimes 25g. Also you can see the flow of coffee and control the pressure accordingly. Very pleased!


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## martyrdon

That's awesome. Did you get a good tamper as well?

I just got a La Pavoni and the plastic tamper is god awful!


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## MediumRoastSteam

martyrdon said:


> That's awesome. Did you get a good tamper as well?
> 
> I just got a La Pavoni and the plastic tamper is god awful!


I have an el cheapo that you can get for around £12. It does the trick nicely.

But I think at some point I'll try and get something more specific to the basket.


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## martyrdon

Oooh nice. Where did you get that?


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## MediumRoastSteam

martyrdon said:


> Oooh nice. Where did you get that?


I've got it off CoffeeChap. But you can find them on amazon or eBay. It's not amazing, but it's doing the trick for now


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## Nopapercup

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Ordered a naked / bottomless PF from TheEspressoShop. Great service.
> 
> I didn't know this would make such a difference to the quality of my shots.
> 
> Until yesterday, I couldn't set on a routine, and volume was all over the place. Lock the PF with the lever up, or half way, lifting slowly, or all the way down, with flush before, all combinations. Usually the lever just felt spongy and the shot volume was not as much as I wanted.
> 
> So, with the bottomless:
> 
> - I figured out that the best way is to lift the lever up at normal speed.
> 
> - This is where I was going wrong: I was then leaving the lever parked in the upwards position assuming it would pre-infuse. (Remember, I couldn't see anything before). Now, I push the lever down a tad, very gently, until some coffee starts showing around the edges of the basket. Wait a couple of seconds and push the lever back up. You will notice the group filling up slightly and the lever becoming stiff (so no sponginess). This will definitely remove the air from the group and the shot volume was at the rate I wanted (15g in, 32g out without issues). Before I was getting sometimes 28g, sometimes 25g. Also you can see the flow of coffee and control the pressure accordingly. Very pleased!


If you're holding the lever all the way up you're filling the group with water and pre infusing. With your new method (Fellini method) you're soaking the puck for a long time and probably over extracting. The sponginess and low output volume is because you're overloading the basket. Drop it to 14g and you'll see the output increase. There's only so much space in the group so more coffee grind=less space for water and vice versa. The Fellini method you're starting to push water through the puck therefore creating more space for water to enter the group when you lift it back up but this creates channeling and over extraction.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Nopapercup said:


> If you're holding the lever all the way up you're filling the group with water and pre infusing. With your new method (Fellini method) you're soaking the puck for a long time and probably over extracting. The sponginess and low output volume is because you're overloading the basket. Drop it to 14g and you'll see the output increase. There's only so much space in the group so more coffee grind=less space for water and vice versa. The Fellini method you're starting to push water through the puck therefore creating more space for water to enter the group when you lift it back up but this creates channeling and over extraction.


Already using 14g. It's a naked PF, don't see any channeling. I've researched this a lot. Have you a Pavoni too? Which method do you use? Ps: I don't actually push it down so Coffee comes out and then back up. I only push down a tinny wheanny bit until coffee starts showing. Nothing actually ends up in the cup during that stage.


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## Nopapercup

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Already using 14g. It's a naked PF, don't see any channeling. I've researched this a lot. Have you a Pavoni too? Which method do you use? Ps: I don't actually push it down so Coffee comes out and then back up. I only push down a tinny wheanny bit until coffee starts showing. Nothing actually ends up in the cup during that stage.


Yes I'm a Pavoni owner, one I use for 3-4 shots a day and I've got another two im about to refurb (or try to).

I'm not saying you're getting channels just the Felini method can cause channeling and over extraction. 14g,15g,16g is irrelevant as it varies with the coffee and the size of the basket. My point is if you're aim is a 2:1 ratio and you're getting less than that reduce your input. Also if you're getting too much output either pull the cup away or increase the input.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Nopapercup said:


> Yes I'm a Pavoni owner, one I use for 3-4 shots a day and I've got another two im about to refurb (or try to).
> 
> I'm not saying you're getting channels just the Felini method can cause channeling and over extraction. 14g,15g,16g is irrelevant as it varies with the coffee and the size of the basket. My point is if you're aim is a 2:1 ratio and you're getting less than that reduce your input. Also if you're getting too much output either pull the cup away or increase the input.


Ps: this is where I've seen the technique I'm following, which seems to work rather well.


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## Nopapercup

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Ps: this is where I've seen the technique I'm following, which seems to work rather well.


If it works well then great.

By my calculations in that video if it's at normal speed including pre infusion that extraction took 01:22 for what would be roughly 30g which seems a bit long to me.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Nopapercup said:


> If it works well then great.
> 
> By my calculations in that video if it's at normal speed including pre infusion that extraction took 01:22 for what would be roughly 30g which seems a bit long to me.


Thanks. I only have had it for a few weeks so I'll keep experimenting!


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## Nopapercup

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Thanks. I only have had it for a few weeks so I'll keep experimenting!


I've had mine for a few years and I'm still experimenting. It's part of the fun with these machines and most of what I know now was learnt through trial and error.


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## MediumRoastSteam

martyrdon said:


> Oooh nice. Where did you get that?


Re: tamper. This is something similar to what I have:

BlueSnail Coffee Tamper 51mm https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00B703BNU/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_ZYsjBbAD1SV8G


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## MediumRoastSteam

New piston seals and new group gasket... and new shower screen!


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## coffeechap

That shower screen looks fab


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## MediumRoastSteam

Quick question: how does one remove the Teflon / plastic sleeve from the group?


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## jimbojohn55

like this


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## MediumRoastSteam

Another thing I did was to change the boiler cap seal. Cost was 60p. What a difference. I'm not sure how long it will last like that, but at the moment I don't need to screw the cap anywhere near as tight as before!


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## mendoza

Hello

can you post the tamper please?

i got the europiccola aswell and I've ordered IMS filters,I am now looking for a tamper but it seems difficult to find a 51.+ to fit more precise the IMS,how about yours?


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## MediumRoastSteam

mendoza said:


> Hello
> 
> can you post the tamper please?
> 
> i got the europiccola aswell and I've ordered IMS filters,I am now looking for a tamper but it seems difficult to find a 51.+ to fit more precise the IMS,how about yours?


Post no: 26. (example, it's not the one I have I don't think).

Mine doesn't fit the basket perfectly mind you. It's just a generic cheap version, not fancy.

I haven't looked for a more precise one yet.


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## mendoza

Tthat will do as currently I have nothing to press the coffee with

Btw is the shower screen held only by the portafilter gasket?

did you change it from underneath?

thank you


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## MediumRoastSteam

mendoza said:


> Tthat will do as currently I have nothing to press the coffee with
> 
> Btw is the shower screen held only by the portafilter gasket?
> 
> did you change it from underneath?
> 
> thank you


Yes.

You need to drop the shower screen and gasket. Usually by just unscrewing holding nuts at the top of the piston shaft and pushing it down does the trick IF your gasket is not stuck and baked. If so, remove the clips and the pin and force it down. Mine was quick stuck, so I used a rubber mallet on the piston shaft as per advice on the Cicarrelli site (I think). Don't use anything else or you might damage it. Make sure you have your hand near the group to catch it. Also be careful not to scratch the group as the lever will just travel all the way and will hit the group.

I put a smear of HT silicone grease on the gasket in hope that next time the process will be much easier and the need if using a rubber mallet will not be required.


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## mendoza

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yes.
> 
> You need to drop the shower screen and gasket. Usually by just unscrewing holding nuts at the top of the piston shaft and pushing it down does the trick IF your gasket is not stuck and baked. If so, remove the clips and the pin and force it down. Mine was quick stuck, so I used a rubber mallet on the piston shaft as per advice on the Cicarrelli site (I think). Don't use anything else or you might damage it. Make sure you have your hand near the group to catch it. Also be careful not to scratch the group as the lever will just travel all the way and will hit the group.
> 
> I put a smear of HT silicone grease on the gasket in hope that next time the process will be much easier and the need if using a rubber mallet will not be required.


Thank you sir!


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## MediumRoastSteam

Another worthwhile mod...


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## MediumRoastSteam

mendoza said:


> Thank you sir!


Sorry about the grammar and spelling nonsense - I was typing on my phone.


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## MediumRoastSteam

So, on another thread,

Steaming milk with the Europiccola 3 whole steam wand - Any tips or tricks?

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=6813&share_tid=44526&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D44526&share_type=t

After a couple of weeks with the La Pav, I complained that I couldn't get microfoam with the stock 3 hole tip. It always felt that the steam wasn't strong enough, and steaming was more of struggle rather than a pleasure. So, I followed people's advice here and went for the single hole steam tip. Amazing. The different was like night and day. Although it would take me A - G - E - S to steam, (I'm talking here 2 minutes for my box standard latte, which i usually use 250ml of milk, giving me a steam volume of 400ml. Still, I always found that, if I didn't put the single tip in the right place, just surfing at 9 o'clock and with the pitcher tilted, the results would not turn out well. If I sank the tip, just slightly, the screeching was horrible to hear.

So, I decided to check the pressure of the La Pav: first of all, however, I needed a a pressure gauge. I did not want to pay for a La Pavoni pressure gauge and adapter, and I did t want it to mount it on top of the sight glass. So, after £10 delivered from eBay, and some left over silicone tubing...










I measure

D the pressure on my machine mounted on the steam wand and adjusted it accordingly.

The pressure was set to 0.68 bar, and when the element kicks in, it was going to near 0.75 bar.

So, I adjusted to 0.8bar, and when the element kicks in, it goes to just under 0.87 bar, as shown above.

Below are the thermostat screw before and after for reference. I sadly don't white remember whether I turned just under 1/4 turn anti clockwise or over 3/4 turn clockwise. I thought I would need to break the seal (that white stuff) but to my surprise i didn't need to. Looks like it either have been tampered with before or the seal just broke off naturally.

Before:










After:










I did some milk steaming and the results were encouraging, to the point that the stock 3 hole steam tip is back in business.

Obviously I also need to consider the impact of the water temperature when brewing, so I'll report back my results.

And lastly, the La Pav filling funnel mod: bottle of Volvic, nicely cut. Fits perfectly into the boiler filling hole.










If you have an Europiccola or Professional, what pressure is your machine set to?


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## MediumRoastSteam

So, after the pressure change, this is what I can produce with the 3 hole tip (I've only used it 3 times thus far)










However, I do feel that the single tip produced better quality microfoam, even though it takes 3 times longer.


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## jimbojohn55

It may just be a question of drilling out the tip to 1.5mm or 2mm, need to try this myself as the one I made is 1mm



MediumRoastSteam said:


> So, after the pressure change, this is what I can produce with the 3 hole tip (I've only used it 3 times thus far)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However, I do feel that the single tip produced better quality microfoam, even though it takes 3 times longer.


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## MediumRoastSteam

jimbojohn55 said:


> It may just be a question of drilling out the tip to 1.5mm or 2mm, need to try this myself as throne I made is 1mm


Easily said than done,as I simply don't have the equipment to do that


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## Wuyang

What's the stemming capability of one of these like compared to say a gaggia classic?

Also, what's the boiler made from?

cheers

wuyang


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## MediumRoastSteam

Wuyang said:


> What's the stemming capability of one of these like compared to say a gaggia classic?
> 
> Also, what's the boiler made from?
> 
> cheers
> 
> wuyang


Much better I'd say, having owed both.

Boiler is made of brass, the outside is chrome plated.


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## MediumRoastSteam

So, after a few days with the 3 hole steam tip....

I found that:

- The quality of the microfoam produced is not as nice. The bubbles are bigger

- It's much, much faster (that's a plus point imo)

- when steaming, the element is constantly on and the water inside therefore is constantly fiercely boiling. With the single hole, that's not the case. The element just cycles on/off nicely.

- the pressure stat set to kick the element in at 0.8bar and turn off again at 0.87 bar, to me, seems to high. I am now noticing bitterness in the coffee. I shall adjust it down by 0.05 bar (0.75 / 0.83) and see how it goes.


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## RA5040

I have a Europiccola too (I really splashed out for my last birthday (a big one!) and got the ERG ... it's so beautiful I want to keep it in the sitting room







). I've read this thread with interest.

What I've found (in a roundabout sort of way) is that it's all down to the grinder. I initially bought a ROK lever machine and I simply could not get a cup of espresso from it: the pressure just wasn't there. I talked to the supplier and manufacturer and they agreed to take it back. I then started to look at the grind from my grinder (a de Longhi KG79) and found that it just didn't seem fine enough. I tried the adjustment you can find online, but even with that it wasn't fine enough. So that machine also went back. So I might have been unkind to the ROK (and I'm surprised that the supplier & manufacturer didn't quizz me on my grind/grinder).

I now have a Baratza Forte BG (it's pretty expensive, but I got mine at a nearly 50% discount, new) and it does grind as fine as one needs. It has 10 major steps and 26 minor steps (so 260 in all, thereabouts) and I find that just one minor step either way makes a big difference to the pull on the Pavoni. 2 minor steps down is probably enough to choke the machine.

I also got a naked portafilter and a scales with timer, and what I do is to pull the shot with a mirror showing me the bottom of the portafilter, so I can see what's happening. I can now pull shots that I am really happy with - but without the naked portafilter, mirror, scales and a good grinder I don't think I would ever have gotten there.

Cheers,


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## Dylan

Your not wrong about the grinder, and beyond simply having a grinder capable of producing a good enough grind for espresso the 'better' your grinder the better your espresso will be.


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## MediumRoastSteam

jimbojohn55 said:


> It may just be a question of drilling out the tip to 1.5mm or 2mm, need to try this myself as the one I made is 1mm


I just spoke to Nils from Germany who manufactures the single hole steam tips. The one I have is the one for microfoam and has a micro hole. He does also have one with a slightly bigger hole, so will try that one.


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## RA5040

I'll be interested to see how it works. I have this one: https://www.ebay.ie/itm/STAINLESS-Single-hole-STEAM-WAND-FROTHING-TIP-NOZZLE-LA-PAVONI-EP-Stradivari/202316735141?hash=item2f1b0462a5:g:2WMAAOSw3ydVxPGQ and it works pretty well (I think ... not being exactly an expert at frothing coffee!).

Robert


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## MediumRoastSteam

So, here they are side by side:

The one on the left is the standard one, on the right the microfoam one.










I can steam milk in a third of the time with the standard one, and the results are good, however one requires a very different technique. Whilst with the microfoam version you pretty much surf the top of the milk all the time to make the milk spin and stop when temperature is reached, with the standard one you first inject the air and stretch it, and then mix it by spinning the milk.

If you are not bothered about how long it takes or steam small amounts of milk, the one with the small hole will give you very high quality microfoam and it is pretty much fool proof.


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## RA5040

MediumRoastSteam said:


> So, here they are side by side:
> 
> The one on the left is the standard one, on the right the microfoam one.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I can steam milk in a third of the time with the standard one, and the results are good, however one requires a very different technique. Whilst with the microfoam version you pretty much surf the top of the milk all the time to make the milk spin and stop when temperature is reached, with the standard one you first inject the air and stretch it, and then mix it by spinning the milk.
> 
> If you are not bothered about how long it takes or steam small amounts of milk, the one with the small hole will give you very high quality microfoam and it is pretty much fool proof.


Do you know what size hole they both are? The one I got from the U.S is 1.5mm (.06").


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## MediumRoastSteam

RA5040 said:


> Do you know what size hole they both are? The one I got from the U.S is 1.5mm (.06").


I have no idea.

I bought from here. He is very helpful and ships it very quickly!

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F163133249114

And

https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F163098424571


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## RA5040

Thanks ... I've sent him a message.


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## RA5040

Here is the reply:

"
 
Hi,

it is smaller than the normal singlehole nozzle.

The exact size, form and angle of it, is a secret, sorry





"

I will estimate based on the size of your 5p piece. There's more ways than one to skin ...


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## zoooook

Ive gor an elektra mcal - thinking about buying niche also but in between waiting time , thinking about buying manual hand grinder , does yours do a good job?



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Courtesy of CoffeeChap, I'm now a proud member of the lever club!
> 
> It looks like I've got a lot to learn though!
> 
> Hopefully the Niche comes soon, but for now the Feld2 will have to do


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## MediumRoastSteam

zoooook said:


> Ive gor an elektra mcal - thinking about buying niche also but in between waiting time , thinking about buying manual hand grinder , does yours do a good job?


Yes, it does a good job for me.


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## mendoza

I bought that one from this seller,I'm looking forward to try it I don't have the time yet to fit it! https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1-Loch-Dampfduse-fur-La-Pavoni-Europiccola-Professional-Steam-Nozzle-Tip/263929848170?hash=item3d7371e16a:g:7QIAAOSwosFUXOtF


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## mendoza

I want to see if it's going to be an improve as I am already well pleased with the stock one,once you get used to it it's really good!


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## HBLP

What range of settings are you using on your feld2? Did you get it direct from MBK?


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## MildredM

conor james said:


> looks really nice, great job


Have you nearly finished?


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## MediumRoastSteam

HBLP said:


> What range of settings are you using on your feld2? Did you get it direct from MBK?


I was using one full turn from zero. I did get directly from MBK. It took a while to arrive though, but apparently it has got better since.


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## cavason

Very cool. Old school. Love it


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## ThinkJunket

Really loved watching your journey so far! Considering getting a La Pavoni to use with Helor, a hand grinder as well


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## MediumRoastSteam

MediumRoastSteam said:


> New piston seals and new group gasket... and new shower screen!


Just over 7 months since the last time. I noticed a few days ago there was some water coming out from the shower screen whilst the machine heats up. After some reading, decided to fix it. Piston out, cleaned, wiped dry. Same for the group sleeve. Piston seals, shaft, pins and group gasket re-lubricated. Problem gone away!

It's important to put a smear of silicone grease on the group gasket so it drops relatively easily (as oppose to bake and cook against the group) when you want to perform maintenance.

I do drop the shower screen every couple of months or so to clean it, and it's amazing how the back of it is so clean if compared to an E61 machine, which gets pretty dirty in a matter of days in comparison (due to the pressure release I think?)


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## Morgie

Great looking machine!


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## MediumRoastSteam

10 months owing this machine and started noticing a decrease in steam performance. The element was on constantly, and the steam was spluttering. Checked the pressure and it's as I set. Conclusion: it must be the heating element! So, decided to descale, after 10 months of Ashbeck and Volvic. Visually, there's not anything significant, it I went ahead. After leaving in the weak descaling solution in the boiler only for just under an hour, I was surprised with what I saw. There was definitely scale build up around the heating element. I did not descaled the group as I did t fancy having to re-lube the seals.

The steam performance is back again, and it's so much quieter!

On a less positive note, coincidently or not, it seems that my vacuum breaker valve is stuck, so this morning, for the first time, I had to deal with the infamous "false pressure".

Time to get the spanners out.

Aren't these machines so much fun?


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## MediumRoastSteam

16mm socket and ratchet wrench out, vacuum breaker / safety valve out, dry and clean all up, put it back, happy days.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Not such happy days... the vacuum breaker valve worked for a couple of days, but it's now stuck closed. I can undo the nut and give a quick tap to open it again, but it's annoying. Does anyone know an effective way to fix those? Or so I just bite the bullet and buy a new one?

Thanks.


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## xpresso

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Not such happy days... the vacuum breaker valve worked for a couple of days, but it's now stuck closed. I can undo the nut and give a quick tap to open it again, but it's annoying. Does anyone know an effective way to fix those? Or so I just bite the bullet and buy a new one?
> 
> Thanks.


I'm not familiar with your vacuum breaker, but is it not possible to totally strip it and clean ?.

Jon.


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## MediumRoastSteam

xpresso said:


> I'm not familiar with your vacuum breaker, but is it not possible to totally strip it and clean ?.
> 
> Jon.


See post above last. I've done it. Did not work. I'm reading on it, apparently as the seals harden they can stick more easily. I wonder if the descaling process contributed to that.


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## xpresso

MediumRoastSteam said:


> See post above last. I've done it. Did not work. I'm reading on it, apparently as the seals harden they can stick more easily. I wonder if the descaling process contributed to that.


It was from reading the above posts 66 - 67 - 68 that prompted me to comment, there's only one moveable part in mine and possibly most others, if not all.

They are a very simple device and I agree that a descale would not necessarily totally dissolve all solids and quite possible a small particle would affect the valve from seating.

Jon.


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## MediumRoastSteam

xpresso said:


> It was from reading the above posts 66 - 67 - 68 that prompted me to comment, there's only one moveable part in mine and possibly most others, if not all.
> 
> They are a very simple device and I agree that a descale would not necessarily totally dissolve all solids and quite possible a small particle would affect the valve from seating.
> 
> Jon.


Ok. To make it clear: I took the whole thing apart, bit by bit, cleaned it and wiped it dry. I then put it back, and it worked again 3 times, when it failed again this morning.


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## xpresso

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Ok. To make it clear: I took the whole thing apart, bit by bit, cleaned it and wiped it dry. I then put it back, and it worked again 3 times, when it failed again this morning.


If this is the little 'Tinker' (Am I allowed to say that?) ..........

https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/La-Pavoni-Lever-Safety-Valve-with-Anti-Vacuum---396754R/m-2253.aspx

It looks as if there's a seal on the lower part, possibly a small 'O' ring, ease the 'C' clip off on the top and it will come apart.

That said, again if this is the correct one, they are only a tad over £7·00 to buy and if its a 'O' ring type seal probably gone hard, not worth compromising a brew over.

Jon.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Update: vacuum breaker valve replaced a few weeks ago. All good again.


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## MediumRoastSteam

The wonderful feeling of, having managed to get the retention pin of steam knob out - a PITA - in order to service the steam valve (oh boy the seals were in a sorry state), the joy of having found something much easier to remove next time:

[IMG alt="IMG_2511.thumb.jpg.12a942adcd954e17ad1fcced0ccf650f.jpg" data-fileid="29995"]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk//coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_06/IMG_2511.thumb.jpg.12a942adcd954e17ad1fcced0ccf650f.jpg[/IMG]

It fits perfectly. It is a cut from barbecue skewers  - I'll see how it goes.

Or I can have the whole thing in if I want it. Not sure about the ergonomics however....

This is the big sister of the one which originated this thread.

View attachment 29998


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## ashcroc

MediumRoastSteam said:


> The wonderful feeling of, having managed to get the retention pin of steam knob out - a PITA - in order to service the steam valve (oh boy the seals were in a sorry state), the joy of having found something much easier to remove next time:
> 
> [IMG alt="IMG_2511.thumb.jpg.12a942adcd954e17ad1fcced0ccf650f.jpg" data-fileid="29995"]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk//coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_06/IMG_2511.thumb.jpg.12a942adcd954e17ad1fcced0ccf650f.jpg[/IMG]
> 
> It fits perfectly. It is a cut from barbecue skewers  - I'll see how it goes.
> 
> Or I can have the whole thing in if I want it. Not sure about the ergonomics however....
> This is the big sister of the one which originated this thread.
> [IMG alt="IMG_0291.thumb.jpg.2f4de0cf3e856f67e21d100d32921009.jpg" data-fileid="29998"]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk//coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2019_06/IMG_0291.thumb.jpg.2f4de0cf3e856f67e21d100d32921009.jpg[/IMG]


I'd have thought the original pin should come out quite easilly with the correct size paralell punch.


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## jimbojohn55

To be fair ive often used a nail to pop them out


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## MediumRoastSteam

ashcroc said:


> I'd have thought the original pin should come out quite easilly with the correct size paralell punch.


Probably. But I didn't have one, so used one of those precision screwdrivers as the the upper metal part seemed to be a perfect fit. Maybe I am too inexperienced and too gentle, so I always worry about damaging things. One thing is certain: the bamboo skewer fits perfectly and comes out with ease. With the added benefit of staying put!

But then again, removing the steam knob is not something one needs to do too often (maybe every five years?) so the original pin will get back in at some point.


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## Nicknak

ashcroc said:


> MediumRoastSteam said:
> 
> 
> 
> The wonderful feeling of, having managed to get the retention pin of steam knob out - a PITA - in order to service the steam valve (oh boy the seals were in a sorry state), the joy of having found something much easier to remove next time:
> 
> 
> 
> It fits perfectly. It is a cut from barbecue skewers ? - I'll see how it goes.
> 
> Or I can have the whole thing in if I want it. Not sure about the ergonomics however....
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is the big sister of the one which originated this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'd have thought the original pin should come out quite easilly with the correct size paralell punch.
Click to expand...

 It sort of goes with the bed slat tamper station ?..


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## MediumRoastSteam

Nicknak said:


> It sort of goes with the bed slat tamper station ..


 - one day I'll develop some real skills


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## Nicknak

MediumRoastSteam said:


> - one day I'll develop some real skills


 If it works you .. You can't knock it ..? just hope it doesn't break at an in opportune moment ?


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## MediumRoastSteam

Nicknak said:


> If it works you .. You can't knock it .. just hope it doesn't break at an in opportune moment


I'm not keeping it there!  - it was just provisional until I was sure everything was good inside.


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## THR_Crema

Very nice.


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## AJP80

So, MediumRoastSteam's La Pavoni is now well established in my kitchen, looking very diminutive alongside the Osmio. It is a very welcome addition to my coffee setup. I have been brewing great espresso on it all week long and even trying my hand at milk frothing for my wife's lattes.

I have to say that, if the espresso I'm making with the La Pavoni is as good as it gets, well then that's good enough for me. The espresso I am now producing is in a different league to that which I used to make on my Alex Duetto when I had one 8 years or so ago (although much of the difference may be down to the change of grinder (from conical to flat bur)).

That said, I am already thinking of an upgrade to the La Pavoni in the form of the pressure profile kit. Notwithstanding the great espresso I'm currently making, part of me needs to know what's going on during a shot, even if controlling it makes little discernible difference to the taste of the espresso produced.

There are a number of different PPKs on the market (from third party manufacturers like Coffee Sensor and Naked Portafilter to OEM ones available from EspressoShop). Is there a consensus as to which is the best to get? Naked Portafilter is expensive, even before adding VAT, so that is probably out of the question (although their 'Naked' dials are very appealing). Coffee Sensor is the cheapest and is made from stainless steel so looks good enough, but I tend to buy OEM so my instincts are pointing towards La Pavoni OEM.

Any pointers much appreciated.


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## TomHughes

I got this one. 
Thought it was excellent for the price. 
https://www.edesiaespress.com/la-pavoni-51mm-bottomless-naked-portafilter-handle-for-europiccola-stradivari/


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## AJP80

That's a link for a naked Portafilter. Didn't you pick up the PPK from CoffeeChap? Who's the manufacturer - CoffeeSensor?


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## MediumRoastSteam

AJP80 said:


> That's a link for a naked Portafilter. Didn't you pick up the PPK from CoffeeChap? Who's the manufacturer - CoffeeSensor?


 Tudor from coffee sensor is a top bloke.

have been in conversation with him about a few things. There's lots of those PPK bought from him on the official La Pavoni group on FB and everyone seems very happy.

@CoffeeSensor ^^


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## TomHughes

AJP80 said:


> That's a link for a naked Portafilter. Didn't you pick up the PPK from CoffeeChap? Who's the manufacturer - CoffeeSensor?


 Sorry mis-read your post. 
Yes I got mine from Dave and it was the coffee sensor.


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## Northern_Monkey

@AJP80 - I went for coffee sensor as well,Tudor is nice to deal with. Major plus though is the steam and brew dial faces are of a matching design unlike the OEM Pavoni ones which are different styles for some reason.


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## AJP80

I went for the Coffee Sensor kit in the end, from Espesso Shop. Thanks for your input! I'll report back once I have it fitted.


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## AJP80

So the PPK arrived yesterday afternoon, together with everything I needed to fit it (Teflon tape, silicon grease) except instructions! The lack of instructions was solved with a quick search on YouTube and the kit was fitted in about 30min.

I've pulled a few shots with it now and have been pleasantly surprised at how easy it's been to hit and hold 9bar. No hissing, bending or flexing. I realise now that I must have been pulling well above 10bar with my early shots on this machine after I first got it.

So a worthwhile, if expensive, upgrade.


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## tambu

Thanks for this update, there's definitely a lot of interesting stuff in this thread. I've just become a (post-millenium) Pav owner; were there any vids/guides on pulling a shot that you particularly recommend? I'll be adapting my brew grinders for the time being, and I sold all my espresso kit about 10 years ago, so there's definitely going to be some improvisation until I get around to ordering some bits and pieces (and probably yet-another-grinder). I've never even used a lever before, but it looks like it's going to be very good fun.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Personally.... I don't think there's anything special to using a lever. You just need to get used to the machine, like any other machine. 
Just enjoy it. But you'll find the grinder may need to come sooner rather than later. As you know, espresso requires a very consistent grind, and the Pavoni is rather sensitive to it.


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## AJP80

tambu said:


> Thanks for this update, there's definitely a lot of interesting stuff in this thread. I've just become a (post-millenium) Pav owner; were there any vids/guides on pulling a shot that you particularly recommend? I'll be adapting my brew grinders for the time being, and I sold all my espresso kit about 10 years ago, so there's definitely going to be some improvisation until I get around to ordering some bits and pieces (and probably yet-another-grinder). I've never even used a lever before, but it looks like it's going to be very good fun.


 I Googled "La Pavoni" on you tube and watched a dozen or so videos. This was mainly to get a rough idea of how much force to put through the lever. I enjoyed Bruce Pappas' vids e.g. 



.

There are also lots of helpful factsheets and videos on the La Pavoni Owners Facebook page. It's definitely worth joining that.

I too got rid of my espresso gear a number of years ago and now use my brew grinder with the La Pavoni and whilst it doesn't give me the same kind of fine control as say a Niche, I am very happy with the flavour and, if the grind is a bit off, I can make changes to the pressure on the fly to save the shot. The reality is, I just don't have the caffeine tolerance to micro dial in an espresso grind to perfection - a few sips of espresso does me and then I move onto brew for the rest of the day.

So in that respect the La Pavoni is very forgiving. That said, temperature management is very important and is, thankfully, relatively simple, although a temperature strip is essential. Unless you just drink very light roasts, I'd recommend one (or a pair) covering a 80C to 100c range (single strips covering this range are very rare and as a result very expensive). The two main techniques for temp management are i) dry pumps (to bring the group head up to temperature) and ii) a damp kitchen or paper towel (to bring the group head down to temperature).

I should probably add having just read MRS's recent post that I have a scarily expensive grinder so whilst it is not designed for espresso it is very consistent. The La Pavoni might not be so forgiving with all grinders.


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## tambu

Thanks, Bruce Pappas' videos are quite a nice introduction. I'm going to be using my old feld for the time being, as I can't quite decide what to get grinder-wise. I might try regrinding one spoon at a time after running it thorough a wilfa on coarse, might be quicker, although running multiple experiments at the same time is usually a bad idea. I'm really into brewed more than espresso or milk drinks, so I'm going to see how things go - I'd rather not blow a large sum of cash on something that I end up using only once a week or so. I've never managed to convince my wife that an ek should be in our kitchen for brewed, but she misses the milk drinks so maybe this is my chance 🤣

So i'm guessing I need a temp strip, a new basket and tamper that fits, single hole steam tip, and then there seems to be a levelling tool invented since I last messed around with espresso. And then a pressure profiling kit when I go mad trying to work out if I'm too fine or if I'm not pulling hard enough!


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## MediumRoastSteam

tambu said:


> Thanks, Bruce Pappas' videos are quite a nice introduction. I'm going to be using my old feld for the time being, as I can't quite decide what to get grinder-wise. I might try regrinding one spoon at a time after running it thorough a wilfa on coarse, might be quicker, although running multiple experiments at the same time is usually a bad idea. I'm really into brewed more than espresso or milk drinks, so I'm going to see how things go - I'd rather not blow a large sum of cash on something that I end up using only once a week or so. I've never managed to convince my wife that an ek should be in our kitchen for brewed, but she misses the milk drinks so maybe this is my chance 🤣
> 
> So i'm guessing I need a temp strip, a new basket and tamper that fits, single hole steam tip, and then there seems to be a levelling tool invented since I last messed around with espresso. And then a pressure profiling kit when I go mad trying to work out if I'm too fine or if I'm not pulling hard enough!


 Your Feldgrind will be fine for the La Pav! I used that for months! Next thing is a single hole steam tip. I have a spare single hole steam tip you can have, it didn't fit mine (don't know why). Worth a try. Where abouts in Hants are you?


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## AJP80

Yeah the EK is brutal and I was never going to get pre-approval so I didn't bother asking. From my wife's point of view, one big, ugly, silver grinder (Elektra Nino) was replaced by a slightly less big, just as ugly black grinder. But, I used to spend hours each week stripping, cleaning and Teflon taping the threads on the Nino just to make a drinkable brew so she appreciates me not spending so much time now on my coffee hobby. That and the V60s from the EK are out of this world. I want to rhapsodise about the coffee it makes. It is that good. I continue to be amazed by it and the flavours it extracts. But maybe I just got unlucky with my previous grinders and am only now drinking what everyone else on this forum would consider ok coffee.

As for the other things: Temp strips are essential, so too is a single hole steam tip (so I understand). Levellers, not so much - I prefer to use a stockfleth (I don't use my leveller as the grinds tend to ride up the sides and get stuck there in the nooks and crannies). As for the PPK, it's a nice to have, but not strictly necessary (it's nice to have the feedback and to be able to fix one variable but I can't say hand on heart that my shots taste any better now that I have it). I don't know what difference baskets make (besides capacity) - I am using an IMS basket/ screen combo and it is working well but I don't know if it is any better than the stock basket (I assume it must be but I haven't compared).


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## AJP80

Dry pumps vid here.....


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## tambu

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Your Feldgrind will be fine for the La Pav! I used that for months! Next thing is a single hole steam tip. I have a spare single hole steam tip you can have, it didn't fit mine (don't know why). Worth a try. Where abouts in Hants are you?


 Reassuring to know that there's at least one person who has had success with the feld (and survived for months). I'm south west, near Winchester, but I jumped the gun a bit and already ordered a coffee sensor steam tip alongside a naked pf and an ims basket to boot! But many thanks for the offer MediumRoastSteam, much appreciated.


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## tambu

AJP80 said:


> Yeah the EK is brutal and I was never going to get pre-approval so I didn't bother asking. From my wife's point of view, one big, ugly, silver grinder (Elektra Nino) was replaced by a slightly less big, just as ugly black grinder. But, I used to spend hours each week stripping, cleaning and Teflon taping the threads on the Nino just to make a drinkable brew so she appreciates me not spending so much time now on my coffee hobby. That and the V60s from the EK are out of this world. I want to rhapsodise about the coffee it makes. It is that good. I continue to be amazed by it and the flavours it extracts. But maybe I just got unlucky with my previous grinders and am only now drinking what everyone else on this forum would consider ok coffee.
> 
> As for the other things: Temp strips are essential, so too is a single hole steam tip (so I understand). Levellers, not so much - I prefer to use a stockfleth (I don't use my leveller as the grinds tend to ride up the sides and get stuck there in the nooks and crannies). As for the PPK, it's a nice to have, but not strictly necessary (it's nice to have the feedback and to be able to fix one variable but I can't say hand on heart that my shots taste any better now that I have it). I don't know what difference baskets make (besides capacity) - I am using an IMS basket/ screen combo and it is working well but I don't know if it is any better than the stock basket (I assume it must be but I haven't compared).


 I have an intermediate solution for temp strip which is black electrical tape and the IR thermometer I already have. Stockfleth is a nice flashback, I'd forgotten about that "move"! I should probably dig out my Scott Rao books. The dry pump video is good, that guy has made loads of vids.

Thanks to you both for the help, will let you know how I get on!


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## AJP80

This morning I got my first La Pav boiler burn. Ouch!! I had assumed, without giving it too much (if any) thought that it would be not too dissimilar to an E61 grouphead burn. I was wrong. Whilst it's not too bad visually (I don't think it's going to blister) the pain, from the briefest of touches with the inside of my forearm, is intense and enduring. 
I'll not do that again.


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## MediumRoastSteam

AJP80 said:


> This morning I got my first La Pav boiler burn. Ouch!! I had assumed, without giving it too much (if any) thought that it would be not too dissimilar to an E61 grouphead burn. I was wrong. Whilst it's not too bad visually (I don't think it's going to blister) the pain, from the briefest of touches with the inside of my forearm, is intense and enduring.
> I'll not do that again.


 Haha! You've been bitten by the peacock! Trust me, you'll respect the peacock from now on, it will only happen once. 😂😂😂😂😂


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## Nopapercup

AJP80 said:


> This morning I got my first La Pav boiler burn. Ouch!! I had assumed, without giving it too much (if any) thought that it would be not too dissimilar to an E61 grouphead burn. I was wrong. Whilst it's not too bad visually (I don't think it's going to blister) the pain, from the briefest of touches with the inside of my forearm, is intense and enduring.
> I'll not do that again.


 They are lethal! I've been using mine for years now with no issues and then a couple of weeks ago I wasn't paying attention when it was warming up, reached over the machine and rested my fore arm on the steam release valve. It's left a nice scar and as @MediumRoastSteam said I won't make that mistake twice.


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## tambu

Quick update on my own La Pav: Thanks very much for all the advice above, and the links - really useful. It took me a little while to tame my Europiccola, but I'm getting some decent shots (and yes, a couple of burns - especially after it's been on for a while). Took me a while to get the feel for it, not least as I couldn't be bothered to hand grind more than a couple of shots a day apart from on the very first day when I did a ton, but I'm definitely a lever fan now. Main things that helped me, in case anybody finds this useful in the future:-

- Some kind of temp monitoring on the group as advised by AJP80 (and most of the internet); I used insulating tape and an IR thermometer I already had

- The Bruce Pappas video linked above by AJP80 was the main inspiration for my workflow

- The Bplus cafe videos for milk steaming with the 3 hole 



 (he has a few useful videos); the one hole has arrived now, but as I've made a lot of progress with the 3-hole I'm undecided on whether I'll swap it or not

- Descriptions online of what 9bar roughly feels like - I still don't know for sure, as I've not fitted a pressure kit, but to me it seems a bit like slicing through firm cheese or chilled butter, which seems to be what a lot of people report

One thing I've noticed is that with a single pull I pretty much always get 1:2, but occasionally it'll blow out to 1:3 for the same grind / dose and I've no idea why. I must be doing something different, but it's not a mini-pull (I have focused on a single pull so far). Any ideas?

Next up: solve my grinder dilemma. Looks like a niche ("sensible") or an EK ("crazy"). I have some reservations about an EK paired with La Pav, but at the end of the day I mostly drink brewed and I'm very curious about whether the EK will make the blindest bit of difference to my brewing. I'm a bit cyncial, but it's a question I've asked myself repeatedly for about 5 years now ...


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## MediumRoastSteam

tambu said:


> One thing I've noticed is that with a single pull I pretty much always get 1:2, but occasionally it'll blow out to 1:3 for the same grind / dose and I've no idea why. I must be doing something different, but it's not a mini-pull (I have focused on a single pull so far). Any ideas?


 Sometimes there's air in the piston, which you'll feel due to whats described as a spongy pull. What solved for me is to so some "dry pumps" before you pull. A 10s pre-infusion also helps to increase the output.


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## AJP80

Hi @tambu I've only just seen seen your post.

What Alberto says re maximising shot volume works. I have also used a mini pull to pre-infuse before using a full pull for the main extraction. This increases the shot volume and I have observed no ill effect on the coffee puck (the main extraction looks good using a naked portafilter).

I would say that the La Pavoni is not really made for EKspresso - pulling really long shots is going to be a challenge. But then I don't think espresso is your priority so making the very best EKspresso might not bother you. The EK does make tasty espresso at 2:1 to 2.5:1 ratios (at 13g dose), which is good enough for me.

As for the grinder dilemma, I can sympathise. Buying an EK does feel like a bit of a grinder lottery, if making espresso with one is important. I think I mentioned that, had I received a poorly aligned EK, my solution would not have been to sand it, but to consider a smaller, additional grinder for the odd espresso I make. On the other hand, in my experience at least, buying grinders is always a bit of a lottery. The EK is my fourth in 15 years. The first three all had their faults (a Kitchen Aid with plastic internals that fell apart; a Mazzer Mini E that, due to an uneven adjustment ring, had terrible alignment and couldn't grind for espresso (which was all I drank at the time); and an early Elektra Nino (not terrible for medium to dark roasts, but design choices, low tolerances and a wobbly upper burr carrier meant it wasn't great for lighter roasts or large grind adjustments)).

It's fair to say that the EK is the first grinder that hasn't caused me a lot of worry and bother. It might be big, expensive and ugly (I actually like its looks and think it's a bit of a design icon), and it's not perfect (why is the paint so soft and scratch prone; why doesn't the augur catch all of the bean fragments), but it makes really tasty coffee and will likely survive a nuclear war (it will certainly outlive me).


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## heratech

Seeing La Pav on ebay actually made me want to get back into espresso a few months ago.

I watched for them for ages but in the end settled for a Gaggia Classic as couldn't justify the money to start.

Was tempted by that quick mill veloce that just sold but I think thats further down the road - will try a lever machine one day!


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## tambu

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Sometimes there's air in the piston, which you'll feel due to whats described as a spongy pull. What solved for me is to so some "dry pumps" before you pull. A 10s pre-infusion also helps to increase the output.


 Yep, I'm doing at least one dry pump before the first pull to bring it up to temp. To be honest, I think it might just be me being a bit sloppy with how long the pre-infusion runs, combined with a bit too much experimentation (and a lack of accurate note taking...). The main problem I have with the Pav at this point is that you can't experiment by running through a whole bag in a session, because of the temp. But overall, when it's not great it's still OK and when it's great it's great. For my occasional use, it's pretty much perfect.


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## tambu

AJP80 said:


> Hi @tambu I've only just seen seen your post.


 No worries! After all the umm-ing and err-ing, I finally thought I'd treat myself to the crazy option (big birthday). Somewhat unexpectedly, my wife actually quite likes the giant white EK43S that now dwarfs over its small La Pavoni neighbour and is happily using it for her aeropress fix. It probably deserves a few comments on the other EK43 thread, but I'm going to wait until I've got used to it - it's early days...


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