# Lelit Grace & Eureka Mignon Spec - Consistency Problems/Despair



## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

Hi All
I had a Delonghi B2C for 12 years and was really pleased with it.
I've just spent £1000 on a Lelit Grace & Eurekea Mignon Specialita and am really unhappy.

I will get it dialled in to approx 18g/40g/20 seconds, and then the next cup produces 3g.
I dial back the grinder and still only get 5g.
I dial back again and get 50g!
This seems to happen much more after lunch, I can't think why.

(Currently using the bag of Bella Barista Espresso blend, but had similar with Rave coffee)
(Coffees about 10 days old.)

I'm now giving up again for the day, but can anyone think what might be going wrong?
And even if it does work, the coffee as an Americano tastes weird.
Not like coffee.
It tastes of other things, but not in a nice way.
I have never bought a cup of coffee that tastes like the stuff I'm making. And not in a good way.

I think I need a break from it now.
I feel really down - if I'd spent £1000 on a guitar and amp, it would sound amazing.
I've spent 4x the cost of a replacement DeLonghi for something I was assured would be amazing but am now really p***ed off with the whole thing.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

hi,

we need some info when you say 18g/40g/20 seconds when are you starting to time, it needs to be from the moment you start the pump, if this is the case your going too fast,


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It clearly sounds like there is massive variance much more so than we would even expect from mechanical issues, so it's quite likely that it's technique rather than equipment.

You need to break it down into blocks of activity and to be more precise in describing them to try and pinpoint the root cause. e.g.

*I will get it dialled in to approx 18g/40g/20 seconds, and then the next cup produces 3g*. (is this next cup produced straight away, are you running with beans in the hopper or single dosing. After a grind adjustment are you allowing for previous grind and new grind mixing due to retention and exchange...known as chasing the grind)
*I dial back the grinder and still only get 5g.* See above are you chasing the grind, is there a significant gap?
I dial back again and get 50g!

*This seems to happen much more after lunch, I can't think why.* Time of day won't have anything to do with it, but you may well have a long gap between 1 coffee and the one you have with lunch.

The above is just one example of getting a bit more detail in areas which at first glance look like nothing


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@antinwales - The Mignon is not a single dose grinder. Therefore, any changes you make - Always with the burr spinning when going finer - will never be visible straight away. It will take at least another shot or a 2s purge for the "new grinds" to be ready and all the same when you grind into your basket.

In addition to the above:

- Do a quick 2s purge before the first shot. This will ensure that all the voids/areas of the group/dispersion plate/shower screen are consistently the same with all your shots.
- Technique: Make sure your technique is consistent. Dose, distribute, and tamp. This is usually the culprit, and you need to master it. Make sure that, with the mignon, at least until you get the hang of it, you distribute the grinds with a toothpick or something inside the basket. Google up "WDT- Weiss Distribution technique".


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

Thank you for your patient replies to my impatient despairing post.

I have been WDT from the beginning.

it certainly seems like a change in grind setting takes two 18g shots to even out, which isn't ideal if you've only got a 250g bag. I have burned through several bags just trying to get something drinkable.

having gone through about 4 bags, I don't think I've managed 18/40 in 25 @ 9 bar once.

Precision basket on the way, and a 1kg bag of beans from Clifton, so I should be able to tweak without running out of beans.

I don't understand why dialling in the Mignon is so difficult. I thought it was a dose grinder, and I don't see why the previous settings should affect the current one after a 2sec purge (I've set the 1-cup time to 2 seconds for just this reason)

Hopefully one day I'll laugh at this. Thank you for your patience.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

It wont,

Are you filling the hopper?

The specilita should grind 20g is around 11 seconds.






I always tend to dose 17g.

That grinder will choke the machine.

Perhap make a video of your process it will really show is whats what.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

When i had a specialita, i would perge 0.5s of grinds, then grind 17g into a cup. Then distribute. Wdt, then tamp and pull.

I only purge if the grinder has been sat idle for a good few hrs.

In terms of dialing in, on the dial you tend not to be at number 1 my spec ended up being around the number 3 and if i went to 2.5 it would choke, so were talking a tiny adjustment


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## Ando (Jan 11, 2021)

@antinwalesYou are not alone with your frustrations! I have 'sinked' close to 2kg of coffee last couple of weeks having spent 4 figures on new machine and a Specialita grinder (I am normally pretty tight, so this really does kill me). Have had to resist the urge to throw the thing out the window at times! So whilst I can't help you, hopefully you can take some solace that you aren't the only one out there struggling. I have the last couple of mornings used a dosing cup to grind into, and that has def helped. It was pretty cheap on Amazon as well.

@Cuprajake That is very interesting re grind time with the Specialita. It takes me about 22 seconds to grind 18g with a full hopper. I take it that is not how things should be?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Well now, this seems to be an issue that has come up via pm

The grind speed @HVL87 has sent back one if not two mignons for slow grind.

That aside, the speed while different shouldn't effect the result too much.


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

I grind 18g in about 9 seconds around "3" . The strange thing was it stalling on the same setting later in the day, but that was on 2.5 so maybe I'd made the mistake earlier.

I'll stick to 3 tomorrow. Fingers and toes crossed.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Stalling as in not grinding? Thar would poss be too fine then jamming up, did you have to go coarser to stop the jam?


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## Zorkin (Feb 5, 2021)

I have a relatively similar new setup ( Xmas ) of the spec and a Victoria. Grinding 18g takes under 10 secs. ( currently 9.6 )

The grinder is very consistent when it has a reasonable amount of beans in the hopper , when low it starts to vary a little.

This setup has been producing good results from day 2 , and with little coffee wasted.

I found the grinder adjustment needs to be very very minimal. A small change can make a huge impact. 
You may be overcompensating and moving too much. Never change the setting by more than 0.5 between attempts. Try at least twice at the same setting before adjusting.

Below is my current setting for Monmouth Brazilian bean. This turns 18-36 in 40 secs ( 58m basket ) and comes out nice and tasty.


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## Ando (Jan 11, 2021)

I had always wondered why the timer in photos / videos of other folks Mignon's were way lower than my setting .. Might phone place I bought from tomorrow and see what they say


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The numbers mean nothing. They cannot be compared to other grinders. What means "0" to you might be "4" to someone else. In other words, just because "4" is where the burrs touch for grinder "A", doesn't mean it will be the same for grinder "B".


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@MediumRoastSteam think hes on about time. My grinder did 20g in 10s at an espresso grind while others are taking 20s to grind the same,

I used chocolate point in my vid as i was comparing to another members grinder who has the same beans and machine as me, so we could see if it was the grinder.


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## Zorkin (Feb 5, 2021)

They should have put some pictures of animals - perhaps make the randomness clearer. Numbers suggest predictability. Not eurekas finest design is it ?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> I used chocolate point in my vid as i was comparing to another members grinder who has the same beans and machine as me, so we could see if it was the grinder.


 I know all about that! 😉

I was referring to @Zorkin 's comment as he posted an image of the dial on his grinder. Just making people aware.



> Below is my current setting for Monmouth Brazilian bean. This turns 18-36 in 40 secs ( 58m basket ) and comes out nice and tasty.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

As @Cuprajake mentioned I am returning two Specialita grinders as they seem to be grinding much slower than expected, which may or may not be impacting the consistency of the grinds - I think it's possible.

Once dialled in for a 30 second shot (2:1 ratio at 9 bar) it was taking me 18 seconds to grind 18g and the result was a little clumpy. Yes grind speed and how clumpy the grind is depends on the bean and how fine you are grinding. The Specialita does sound like it is struggling though at this dialled in setting.

I spoke to Eureka directly and they said the grind shouldn't take so long and there could be an issue with the burrs.

To get decent results with this grinder whilst I was using it, I found wdt to be most helpful. Saying that, the grinder did not really meet my expectations so I'll most probably be looking to buy a Niche instead.


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## Ando (Jan 11, 2021)

@HVL87Very helpful, thanks very much. I think I will follow suit, my problem sounds identical. My plan had always been to buy a Niche in the next batch and sell the Mignon on, but will now just hunt something down second hand to keep me in coffee until April.


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## Zorkin (Feb 5, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> As @Cuprajake mentioned I am returning two Specialita grinders as they seem to be grinding much slower than expected, which may or may not be impacting the consistency of the grinds - I think it's possible.
> Once dialled in for a 30 second shot (2:1 ratio at 9 bar) it was taking me 18 seconds to grind 18g and the result was a little clumpy. Yes grind speed and how clumpy the grind is depends on the bean and how fine you are grinding. The Specialita does sound like it is struggling though at this dialled in setting.
> I spoke to Eureka directly and they said the grind shouldn't take so long and there could be an issue with the burrs.
> To get decent results with this grinder whilst I was using it, I found wdt to be most helpful. Saying that, the grinder did not really meet my expectations so I'll most probably be looking to buy a Niche instead.


Curious as to why you did mot meet your expectations , what grinder you used previously?

My first stand alone grinder so I have nothing to benchmark it against.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Zorkin said:


> Curious as to why you did mot meet your expectations , what grinder you used previously?
> 
> My first stand alone grinder so I have nothing to benchmark it against.


 Let me clarify. Like with you, other people have a great experience using the Specialita and that's why I bought it in the first place. I may be wrong but I don't feel like I'm using the same grinder as you/other, as far as dialling in, grind speed and consistency is concerned. This may or may not be due to an issue with the burrs.

I always preferred the idea of using a grinder designed for single dosing, so I can keep beans in the bag/container and use when required. Using a grinder like the Niche also means no purging and less wastage. Also the ease of switching between brew methods. I just couldn't wait so long for a Niche as I've only recently bought a new espresso machine.


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

Slightly cheered up this morning: Rave Monsoon Malabar: 17g in, 35g out in 30 seconds! Very thick crema. Pressure at max.

But still quite weird. I can't tell how it is in an Americano as I'm Totally Wired.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

when was the coffee roasted?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

looks like you could walk on that crema 🧐


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> looks like you could walk on that crema 🧐


 Isn't common wisdom that one should be able to lay a teaspoon on the crema and the spoon should remain on top? 🙃😉 - I think I might have read this on HomeBarista back in 2012. 🙂


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Isn't common wisdom that one should be able to lay a teaspoon on the crema and the spoon should remain on top? ???????? - I think I might have read this on HomeBarista back in 2012. ????


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Monsooned is an odd bean. Starting at a ratio of 2 tends to be earthy and may even taste sweet. Shorten that shot and it very probably will. A bite comes out as the ratio is increased. Can't really be called bitter. Even the medium roasts can have that if it's an excellent bean and roast but more of an after taste.  I've drunk uber kg of the stuff.

For a* large* americano I use 13.5g in and 38 out in 30sec. I cut that back to 20sec for my wife and visitors find mine too strong.  They decline the offer of a weaker one.

Roasts vary. Dark is usually at it's best when the beans have oiled up. The bean is not grinder friendly. It's a good reason to have 2 which I have done but these days I just faff about for a few shots when beans are changed or when I go back to it. It can need very fine grinding. It's a lighter less dense bean than others and that can matter in terms of the dose. Dark roast beans may arrive all oiled up or just some signs of oil on them with more coming out over 3 or so days. Or no oil at all as it's been burnt off. There may be a darker roast level where oil stops in it.

The beans vary as well. I can't recollect trying Rav's and you don't mention what roast you are using. Pressure wise on a Sage BE brewing at ~16bar 9.5g came very near to what I get out of 13.5g at 9 bar.

Caffeine wise I would say it's a lighter one than many others.


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## forsh (Nov 11, 2019)

I also got a Mignon Spec recently and I'm looking at the Grace as a potential new espresso machine (amongst others). I'm finding the Mignon great, but I specifically wanted an on-demand grinder as most of the time I'll want to dial a bean in, and then drink my way through the hopper before dialling in again.

It did take maybe 500g of Tesco's finest before I had dialling in down, and maybe a bit of seasoning took place, which I hear is a thing.

My 0 point is dead on 0 (where the burrs touch). When grinding, it's super quick until I get to a certain fineness, then it slows to about half speed before jamming if I keep going finer. With the Tesco beans, on my grinder that was at 1 to slow 0.5 to jam. With Square Mile's Red Brick, it slowed at 1.5 and jammed just ever so slightly after that. So that's a pretty massive difference. I've also had a few beans from Footprint and they fell somewhere between those two. That said, I was able to dial each bean in pretty well, somewhere between 2 and 3.

As a novice, I've found it much easier to work with lower doses to start with. Like 15-16g (or less). I can dial in pretty quickly and make minor adjustments in the dose. It just seems to work for me, and be more efficient, rather than infinitely adjusting the grind. Feel free to tell me I'm doing it wrong though 😆


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

Thanks all. I don't think I'd appreciated the lag between changing setting and seeing results.

Is 16g a more sensible dose for Americano? I'm using around 18g and my pressure is too high (around 11 bar).


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

antinwales said:


> and my pressure is too high (around 11 bar).


 That's the operational pressure of the machine I'm afraid. You can't change that. The advice I give you is to ignore that manometer until you are pulling great shots. I am not sure how easy (or difficult) is to adjust the expansion valve on your machine.

you need to dose for a basket. An good indicator is that the dose feels "right", usually by the top of the tamper aligning with the rim of the basket. Your thumb and indicator will feel that. Another test is to prep and tamp. Put a 10p coin on top of it at the centre. Lock the PF and remove it. If there was a massive indentation, then it's too high. If it's a light indent, then it's just right. If there's no indent, then it's too low. IMMV.


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Put a 10p coin on top of it at the centre...


 That's interesting, I'll give it a try, thank you.


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## antinwales (Jan 16, 2021)

Having had more of a play, my problems were caused by the lag between Cause and Effect.
This is looking like being up to two cups. 
I'm really surprised how long it takes the Mignon to react to change, and also surprised that the Grace seems to run at such high pressure.
I've now learned my lesson with the former, and have mailed Lelit about the latter.


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