# Londinium R Queries



## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

So i have had my new machine for a while now. i'm really enjoying it, and starting to understand its nuances.

i have a few general queries though, to see what other people's experiences / recommendations are



i notice that the second shot extracts colder - or it seems that way at least. If the first shot is nice and mottled, the second might lose the mottling. i do rinse the PF between shots, but don't put it back in the group. is there a defined waiting period between shots or is it just me?


i don't keep the machine on all day, so sometimes re-boot it when its cooled down say half way. is there any guide as to knowing when its back up to temp, or is time the best guide (45mins to 1hr from cold, so pro-rata from warm etc). i usually wait till the top of the lever is hot, but holdable. ( i am missing the group thermometer)


is it more economic to leave the machine on for say 4 hours, vs turning it on and off twice?


appreciate any thoughts


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Re rinsing the portafilter, does the second shot run slower than the first. If i need to rinse my pf i do it with some boiling water or water from the spout to keep it hot.

If the pf is a significantly lower temp than it was the shot may run a little slower, extract a little less as the pf acts as a heat sink . When I rinse mine in hot hot water , i dont seven a difference in shots ( caveat not a londinium but theory is still the same )

When you are rebooting the machine , how long do you leave it until the shot is pulled ?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

richwade80 said:


> is it more economic to leave the machine on for say 4 hours, vs turning it on and off twice?


 Can't comment on the others. But from what I gather, generally, it seems that this is the consensus, specially during this time of the year, where the heat is technically not lost.

I think it was only the other day, and someone asked the same question for an E61 machine. You'll end up using more electricity to heat up from cold 4 hours later rather than just leaving the machine heating up the room in the background. And, apparently it's best for the machine to be left on, at a steady temperature, to avoid the contract/expansion on the metal parts.

even with my little machine, the Elizabeth, which warms up in 17 minutes, I'm thinking in leaving it on all day as I tend to have a coffee every 3 hours or so.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Re rinsing the portafilter, does the second shot run slower than the first. If i need to rinse my pf i do it with some boiling water or water from the spout to keep it hot.
> 
> If the pf is a significantly lower temp than it was the shot may run a little slower, extract a little less as the pf acts as a heat sink . When I rinse mine in hot hot water , i dont seven a difference in shots ( caveat not a londinium but theory is still the same )
> 
> When you are rebooting the machine , how long do you leave it until the shot is pulled ?


 that's the thing - i reboot the machine and then sit there and think - how long does it need? so probably leave it at least 45mins anyway. i think i will start leaving in on for longer instead.

i don't see a slower shot as far as i can tell. i think it seems more noticeable when i'm pulling longer shots on lighter roasts though, so i can imagine during that time that the PF is sucking some heat out of the system. i might try the hot water, or even just cleaning with a cloth instead. it knocks out really clean pucks so its all very neat and tidy these days.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

richwade80 said:


> So i have had my new machine for a while now. i'm really enjoying it, and starting to understand its nuances.
> 
> i have a few general queries though, to see what other people's experiences / recommendations are
> 
> ...


 1. If you rinse the portafilter - run some hot water over it to re-heat it. It has a fair amount of mass so will affect shot temp considerably if cold or cool.

2. Easiest way to check if the group is up to temp is to put palm of your hand on the group. If you can keep it there, it's not hot enough. If you can only touch it briefly - you're good to go. You can bring the group rapidly up to temp by pulling water through the group several times once up to pressure. This way, the L R will be ready to pull shots in 10 minutes. Again, check group temp by putting your palm on it.

3. Once up to temp, machine doesn't consume vast amounts of energy.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

If you are doing one shot after another, knock out the portafilter, wait 5 seconds for the heat to dry it a bit, then use a dry paintbrush to brush it clean...refill with coffee, and make your next shot. Only rinse the portafilter after your series of shots is finished. I keep a dry 1 inch or 1.5 inch paintbrush beside the grinder just for this.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

i like the paintbrush idea - running off to the garage..... trying to ignore brushes in white spirits....


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Just not one of those super cheap ones, you need a brush with some guts...


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

What Dave said. The pucks come out so dry that they always knock out in one go and leave very little residue in the basket. A few seconds later that residue is dry as a bone and can be wiped/brushed out.

My general rule about the machine being up to temp is if the metal just below the lever handle is warm.


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## RobW (Dec 24, 2017)

I follow the practice of some other forum members and have a second portafilter. It sits on top of the machine so is quite warm, but I switch them over whilst prepping the beans so they both get used about the same temperature. Has the bonus of being ready to go when the first shot is done.

You have a built-in steAm cleaner on the machine. Purging the wand into the portafilter after use is quite effective at cleaning it and no temperature loss.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

RobW said:


> ...a second portafilter. It sits on top of the machine so is quite warm, but I switch them over whilst prepping the beans so they both get used about the same temperature. *Has the bonus of being ready to go when the first shot is done*...


 and there ^^^ is my justification (to the missus) for a 2nd one....

r.e. the OP, i was turning mine on/off twice a day; but after reading this very post i've started to leave it on during the day; with my portafilter just lose/lightly hanging in.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Another query 

what noises should the machine make while on but not being used?

i am getting an intermittent short hiss which i can't decide if its new or not, or if it is normal. should the machine be totally silent aside from the big clicking sound and boiler heating noise.

i ask as i have so far done two things which might lead me to suspect i need to descale it.



the machine had a sticking anti vacuum valve which i removed, cleaned up and replaced, which solved the issue. for this issue, there was a much longer hissing noise.


i have been running tap water through the filter and have recently discovered it might not have been perfect - i am now on bottled.


any thoughts very much welcomed.


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Could the anti-vac valve be sticking again, perhaps install a new one.

Take the top panel off, turn on machine and see if you can see where the hissing is coming from, or any steam from any of the connections.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

I will check this weekend where it's coming from.

But what I want to know is - should the machine be silent otherwise. Literally no venting etc.

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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

richwade80 said:


> should the machine be silent otherwise. Literally no venting etc.


 Should be silent except when pump kicks in.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Excellent. Thank you.

I'm off hiss hunting!

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## RobW (Dec 24, 2017)

Use a cardboard tube from a cling film or kitchen foil roll or similar. Really helps locate the source of any sound.

My machine sometimes makes the odd noise between boiler cycles.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

it's the anti vacuum valve again. interestingly today i had the machine on for about 3hrs and by that time the pump was intermittently blipping on and off every few minutes.

i can remove the valve and check it again this weekend. i am wondering if it likely that any scale could have started in the short time using filtered tap water - or that the anti vacuum valve is just not that great. so i'm toying with the idea of doing a descale as well to be sure it's not that.


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

richwade80 said:


> it's the anti vacuum valve again. interestingly today i had the machine on for about 3hrs and by that time the pump was intermittently blipping on and off every few minutes.
> 
> i can remove the valve and check it again this weekend. i am wondering if it likely that any scale could have started in the short time using filtered tap water - or that the anti vacuum valve is just not that great. so i'm toying with the idea of doing a descale as well to be sure it's not that.


 I've had occasional problems with a leaking anti-vac valve. I'm on my third one now (in six years) because I've never felt competent to take one apart to clean it. I wonder if there is a more robust model available than the one Londinium uses.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mathof said:


> I've had occasional problems with a leaking anti-vac valve. I'm on my third one now (in six years) because I've never felt competent to take one apart to clean it. I wonder if there is a more robust model available than the one Londinium uses.


 There is a memory metal valve (the black one on the top of the fitting), the Vesuvius has used them for the last 4 years and recently LM offer them as an option. They cost around 8-10 times more than a standard vacuum breaker, which for me is not much as you can appreciate (I get them at factory price), but they might cost you anything from £60+ each (probably plus vat)










https://www.lamarzoccousa.com/wp-conten ... .2.029.pdf


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## lune (Jun 9, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> There is a memory metal valve (the black one on the top of the fitting), the Vesuvius has used them for the last 4 years and recently LM offer them as an option.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.lamarzoccousa.com/wp-conten ... .2.029.pdf


 Are they the same as the ones from fluid-o-tech?

https://espresso-solutions.co.uk/boiler-vacuum-valve/


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

lune said:


> Are they the same as the ones from fluid-o-tech?


 The 3 I have here are Fluid-O-Tech valves yes. There are different versions, mine are good to 140C, which is all you would need on a Londinium.

https://www.fluidotech.it/en/products/technologies/valves/ANTIVACUUM-VALVES/


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> The 3 I have here are Fluid-O-Tech valves yes. There are different versions, mine are good to 140C, which is all you would need on a Londinium.
> https://www.fluidotech.it/en/products/technologies/valves/ANTIVACUUM-VALVES/


Yeah those black ones look badass.

https://espresso-solutions.co.uk/la-marzocco-valve-vacuum-breaker-sma-g1-4-s-s/

How interchangeable are these valves? I'll give the stock one another clean / check etc and see how if it fares better on bottled water. My equivalent ecm valve lasted a fair few years with no issues. Just wondering if that was maybe a better design.

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

richwade80 said:


> Yeah those black ones look badass.
> 
> https://espresso-solutions.co.uk/la-marzocco-valve-vacuum-breaker-sma-g1-4-s-s/
> 
> ...


 Perhaps..but be a bit spendy and get yourself a new FKM O ring for the vacuum breaker....the old one will have hardened and they don't work so good and the FKM ones will last like 3 times longer..

https://www.amazon.co.uk/sourcingmap®-Resistant-Nitrile-Sealing-Nonpoisonus/dp/B01N21CLK2/ref=sr_1_45?dchild=1&keywords=fkm+o+ring&qid=1606334533&sr=8-45

*I don't know what the size of the o ring is but you can measure i*t and then something like in the link above will cost you £5 for enough to last the rest of your life and then some.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

so apart from £14.80...what's the difference between this stainless steel version and this (i assume) NON stailess steel version ? ...is it just simply one is stainless steel and the other isn't ? or is the difference in cost due to something else ? as they look identical to me.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

For the record I removed the valve again, cleaned it, measured the o-ring, and replaced it.

It's all working silently now. If it goes again I'll try the FKM ones.

If that fails, then it's alternative time.

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

They are both stainless steel...but one is a LM valve and the other isn't.


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