# Temp surfing and Frothing milk before brewing is good?



## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Hi

It seems one of the worst disadvantages of Gaggia Classic is unstable temp. I try to make sure Gaggia have correct temp for brewing. ( I don't have PID) so learning to temp surfing is necessary for me now.

I found some one said:

" ... Single-Boiler Semi Automatics:

Some single-boiler semi-automatic espresso machines may have the tendency to brew a tad too cold for your liking. This may be the case if the maximum temperature of the machine's thermostat is on the lower side. Even if the machine is in the perfect temperature range, if you want to brew a bit hotter, you can do so by "tricking" the unit into thinking it is about to steam instead of extract.

Since these machines use the same boiler to brew and steam, there will be a natural temperature variation between the two functions. For extracting espresso, the boiler temp for most machines is lower than it would be if you were to steam or froth milk. Thus, you can trick the machine into raising its boiler (and ultimately brewing) temperature, by activating the steam function as soon as the brew-ready indicator light comes on. The longer you leave the steam running, the hotter the machine temperature will be. Once you're ready to brew, turn the steam function off and extract your espresso right away, before the boiler has a chance to cool down..."

And I found the other said:

" ...Let machine heat up for at least 15 minutes with portafilter locked in group. Steam milk first if applicable.....Turn steam switch and pump switch on for 5 seconds then pump off, wait for 10 seconds, purge steam wand and begin steaming. Never ran out of steam this way...Grind into PF, level, tamp, etc. Place steam wand in cup and purge until steam stops coming out. Then put cup under group and switch pump on until the light goes out. Lock in the PF and as soon as the light comes back on, switch pump on and pull shot...."

I would like to hear from you. Have you ever frothed milk before brewing? Any advice for Gaggia temp surfing ?

thanks


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## Iwwstriker (Dec 6, 2013)

Yes, I have always froth my milk first before extraction, to save some time in the morning. It's usually a daily routine for me. Wake up, turn on the machine, switch on the steam button, turn on the pump to get more water into the boiler first to build up a pressure, then take a bath. It tends to heat up the machine faster than just turning on the power button (which I found out). Mainly because it remains in the steam temperature for a longer time, thus distributing more heat to the whole machine's surrounding.

Then, when i am out of the shower, milk from fridge, into milk jug, and froth after purging (of course). After I have finished, I surf temp the machine to reduce the temperature to brewing temperature. After that, run about 5 seconds of water through the brew head to get more fresh water into the boiler. Grind into portafilter and brew your shot. I find this flow of steps faster to prepare a cup of latte compared to brew first, froth later. Because it is faster to reduce temperature than to increase the temperature. And I usually screwed up with little patience to wait for the steam to build up in the boiler after extraction, ended up, my frothing is a bit off, having less power.

But yes, I do find that it's very unstable in the gaggia classic for temperature. =( it's a compromise that has to be made since it's the entry level machine. I have thought of PID but I might just wanna save the fuss and get an extra amount of money to invest in a HX machine =)

Hope that helps.

Cheers,

Ivan


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

I did follow the idea : "...The longer you leave the steam running, the hotter the machine temperature will be.Once you're ready to brew, turn the steam function off and extract your espresso right away, before the boiler has a chance to cool down..."

however, when switching the brewing/ pump button, it seems the pressure is still very strong

Then I copy the other idea : "

" ...Let machine heat up for at least 15 minutes with portafilter locked in group. Steam milk first if applicable.....Turn steam switch and pump switch on for 5 seconds then pump off, wait for 10 seconds, purge steam wand and begin steaming. Never ran out of steam this way...Grind into PF, level, tamp, etc. Place steam wand in cup and purge until steam stops coming out. Then put cup under group and switch pump on until the light goes out. Lock in the PF and as soon as the light comes back on, switch pump on and pull shot...."

it it seems the frothed milk is no longer in the ideal time to pour


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## Iwwstriker (Dec 6, 2013)

Yup, that's one of the down to the frothed milk, sitting there just waiting for around 1min max to be poured. So, and you have to keep it shaking though...swivelling around so that the foam and milk stay mixed up together, creating a glossy paint surface. But the milk is not going to lose the heat that fast considering the foam on top (foam is made of air, air is an insulator), so the only way for your milk to be cooled is through the steel milk jug body. So unless your kitchen is extremely cold, the small difference in temperature surrounding will reduce the rate of heat transfer from the milk to the air.

And thus, I would say, practice to get to the best condition possible for pouring, I guess. Like for example, just because one can own a lamborghini, it doesn't mean that his driving skills are better and more advanced. So the only part that the machine cannot do for entry level people like me, is the temperature stability part. That's the downside of it =(

But I would still say, frothing milk first before brewing doesn't stop me from making a nice latte art and delivering a tasty cup of latte in the early morning. It's the skills that's important.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm sorry to burst the bubble but it's no wonder you are having difficulty and finding it unstable when making espresso and milk if you are doing things back asswards like that and I really really hope that you arent leaving the steam switch on whilst you take a bath.

Pull the shot 1st and then steam the milk, if you do it the other way around then the boiler and the water will be far too hot for brewing espresso and no matter how brilliant the microfoam you have created it will begin to separate, which is the issue not losing heat. Put the shot when pulled onto the cup warmer, and the milk will also warm the espresso when freshly steamed, unlike pouring colder milk into a hot espresso. Try an experiment, if you have a milk thermometer steam milk to your desired temp and state and leave the thermometer in and watch the temperature for a minute or so, you'll be surprised.

To JK, where did you quote your information from was it Home Barista, if so I would take it with a pinch of salt as a lot of stuff on HB seems like a weenie wagging competition with people trying to show they know more then others or that they alone are right.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

With a Gaggia Classic, extract first, then flick to steam and steam your milk

This is a much more consistent method than steaming first then extracting the espresso


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## Iwwstriker (Dec 6, 2013)

Well, thanks for popping the bubble on my head. That said being making one cup of latte. How about two or three cups of latte? Coming back and forth with temp surf and brewing would end up going in the same path that I am going right now. And yes, I have experimented it with a thermometer. If you're in a very warm kitchen, the temperature doesn't drop that much, considering that you don't place your milk jug with frothed milk on a cold table top instead of a cloth. In addition to that, yes, if I leave the steam button on while in the shower, I have to reduce the temperature of the boiler by running the pump consistently through for at least 1 to 2 mins with some stops in between. In the end, I got to the temperature where I initially would want my brewing temperature to be and I can't expect more from an entry level machine.


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## clickhappy (Feb 1, 2012)

I have fitted a thermocouple to the back of the boiler with the intension of fitting a PID but have not got around to it yet. I switch the machine on, quick purge to fill the boiler then flick on the steam switch and leave it for a few minutes. When I come back to it the boiler temp is around 110-120 so i switch off the steam switch and purge down to ~105 (~10 sec) before grinding, tamping and locking the pf. It has dropped by another couple of degrees by the time I hit the brew switch and after 30ish seconds of pumping the temperature has dropped to not much more than 90 degrees.

I try and start steaming before the steam thermostat turns off so element is still heating as I steam although this is not easy as this is a fairly small window.

Hope there is something useful in this brain dump.


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## Iwwstriker (Dec 6, 2013)

How do you switch off the steam switch and purge down? You're gonna get your brew group burnt out and overheating it. Good luck with the shortened lifetime of your machine. I wonder how much does it cost for a new replacement of a brew group...Hmmm....


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

When I used to use my Classic I always extracted first. The Classic has a tiny boiler and heats up really quickly. Waiting for steam to build up is matter of seconds, waiting for everything to cool down takes far longer!

My temperature surfing routine was as follows;

Turn on machine.

Open steam wand and turn on brew switch until water comes out. This is to fill boiler.

Leave for a *least 20mins* for the whole machine to heat up.

Grind and Tamp my coffee

Turn on brew switch and run water (in to cup to warm it) until ready light goes off.

Now wait for ready light to come on (so we know we are at the top of thermostats range)

Flick steam button as soon as ready light is on and count to 4-8 seconds, then turn off steam button.

While counting put portafilter in the machine.

After counting and turning off steam switch press the brew switch to begin the pour.

The exact number of seconds to count depends on personal taste and the beans you're using. If the shot tastes burnt count less, if it tastes sour count longer. The idea behind this is that when we hit the brew switch there is a massive inrush of cold water into the Classics small boiler which causes a drop in water temperature and the thermostat to have to kick in and turn on the heater. Unfortunately there is inherent lag in this as the thermostats are measuring the boiler casing temp more than the actual water temperature. Also the thermostats have quite a large heuristic range (difference between on and off) so the exact temperature you get at the brew head can vary quite a lot. By pulling water and making the machine heat up again until the ready light comes on means we know the thermostat is at the top of its range. By running the steam switch for a number of seconds we are increasing the temperature of the boiler casing slightly in order to offset some of the drop that will occur with the cold inrush of water.

This regime always worked really well for me and gave me much more consistent results than previously.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

My two pence worth

i found to make two milk drinks on the classic in one go , heat your cups with boiling water from the kettle pull two shots and then steam your milk. After steaming enough milk for two cups the boiler would be exhausted and would take at least 5 minutes to recover (become stable temp) .







:exit:


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## DannyMontez (May 19, 2014)

I always extract my shot before I steam the milk. I tried it round the other way recently and was left with a really sloppy puck.


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Marcuswar,

Thank you very much for your advice.

After reading, my understanding is: ( please correct me ,if I am wrong)

1/Turn on machine.( portafilter+basket locked in the brew head)

2/Open steam valve and turn on brew switch ( fill a cup of water around 30-60ml, This is to fill the boiler with fresh water)

3/Leave a least 20mins for the whole machine to heat up.

4/Grind, then Take the Portafilter out of the brew head. Tamp coffee

5/Turn on brew switch and run water (in to cup to warm it) until ready light goes off.( this action is to warm up the cup and refill the boiler, to make the boiler heat up again)

6/Now wait for ready light to come on (so we know we are at the top of thermostats range)

7/Flick steam button as soon as ready light is on and count to 4-8 seconds, then turn off steam button ( this action is to increase the temperature of the boiler while the steam valve is close) ( when flicking the steam button, the light may be off. What should I do? Should I keep counting 4-8second, no mater what the light is on or off?)

While counting put portafilter in the machine.

8/After counting then turning off steam switch then press the brew switch to begin the pour.( what should I do if the light is off? Should I wait for the light on then hit the brew switch immediately ?)

As a newbie for Gaggia thanks for being patient of reading.

Again, please correct me if I understand wrongly.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Hi JK009,

We've all been newbies once and you'll find plenty of helpful people willing to offer advice here on the forum











JK009 said:


> Marcuswar,
> 
> 1/Turn on machine.( portafilter+basket locked in the brew head)
> 
> ...


Correct. The main purpose of point 5 is to take the boiler temperature down to a point where the heating elements need to turn on so we can then watch for when it reaches the top of temperature range.



JK009 said:


> 6/Now wait for ready light to come on (so we know we are at the top of thermostats range)
> 
> 7/Flick steam button as soon as ready light is on and count to 4-8 seconds, then turn off steam button ( this action is to increase the temperature of the boiler while the steam valve is close) ( when flicking the steam button, the light may be off. What should I do? Should I keep counting 4-8second, no mater what the light is on or off?)
> 
> While counting put portafilter in the machine.


Start counting from the moment you flick the switch.

When you flick the steam switch the ready light should go off as the boiler is now needing to heat up to higher temperature. If the light does come back on then you've left it on too long and the boiler is now full of steam, and you need to purge it and leave everything to cool down and start again. I'd recommend you start with by counting 4 seconds and increase after tasting if required. Sour = count longer, burnt = count less.



JK009 said:


> 8/After counting then turning off steam switch then press the brew switch to begin the pour.( what should I do if the light is off? Should I wait for the light on then hit the brew switch immediately ?)


Just hit the brew switch immediately after turning the steam switch off. Don't wait for any lights. The idea is to just heat the water a little bit higher than the Gaggia thinks it needs to be in order to compensate for the inrush of cold water into the boiler when we turn the pump on.

Remember that this routine doesn't guarantee you a good shot of coffee, it just guarantees a more consistent water temperature which is just one of variables you need to control. Consistency is the key as you can then adjust things from this base line in order to get better shots.

Have fun and enjoy your coffee journey... and keep us posted


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Hi Marcuswar

it is very clear to understand. It will help me as well as other newbie to understand more about Gaggia Classic.

Thank you very much for your explanation

To Charlie



Charliej said:


> To JK, where did you quote your information from was it Home Barista, if so I would take it with a pinch of salt as a lot of stuff on HB seems like a weenie wagging competition with people trying to show they know more then others or that they alone are right.


here is the link:

http://www.wholelattelove.com/articles/temp_surfing.cfm


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

You're more than welcome JK009, I'm glad it all made sense. It's best to get into good habits straight away that way it becomes second nature and you don't have to think about it too much.

You can of course throw some technology at the problem and fit a PID to the Gaggia to control the temperature. I fitted one to mine and it did a great job. I got mine off eBay from China and it cost me about £20 inc delivery for the PID, the SSR (solid state relay) and the temperature probe. The great thing about the PID is that as well as temperature stability it gives you the ability to adjust the temperature for different beans and roasts.

BTW, you can just call me Marcus now were friends


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## Iwwstriker (Dec 6, 2013)

marcuswar said:


> When I used to use my Classic I always extracted first. The Classic has a tiny boiler and heats up really quickly. Waiting for steam to build up is matter of seconds, waiting for everything to cool down takes far longer!
> 
> My temperature surfing routine was as follows;
> 
> ...


Great advices, marcus, I only rushed for the warm up with the steam when I am in a hurry. To be honest, I usually take my time to get the machine warm up under normal circumstances. But I would definitely try to get your steps into my daily routine if I am to improve my extraction skills. It just so happen that I have been looking for an affordable way to have a PID on my gaggia. Do you still have the link to the item that you have had for 20 quids? That's really a bargain. I ended up not installing a PID in the first place because of the price that the item has, which was the plug and play item by a US company which costs almost 200 quids. I could have saved up for a better machine so to speak. Could you please show me? I would really appreciate it. Finally I could control and monitor my temperature.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm with the extract first then milk afterwards camp.

After the steaming the milk, switch off the steam button and hit the brew button, this releases the steam and draws water into the boiler.

Apart from prepping your boiler for the next shot it also extends the lifetime of your boiler.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Iwwstriker said:


> Great advices, marcus, I only rushed for the warm up with the steam when I am in a hurry. To be honest, I usually take my time to get the machine warm up under normal circumstances. But I would definitely try to get your steps into my daily routine if I am to improve my extraction skills. It just so happen that I have been looking for an affordable way to have a PID on my gaggia. Do you still have the link to the item that you have had for 20 quids? That's really a bargain. I ended up not installing a PID in the first place because of the price that the item has, which was the plug and play item by a US company which costs almost 200 quids. I could have saved up for a better machine so to speak. Could you please show me? I would really appreciate it. Finally I could control and monitor my temperature.


It was a fair while ago that I bought my PID so the eBay link is long gone, but a quick look brought up this one which looks to be the same for £12.79 (most of these cheap Chinese ones are clones of the REX C100 devices)

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/100-220V-Digital-PID-Temperature-Controller-max-40A-SSR-K-Thermocouple-Probe-/191026251076?pt=UK_BOI_Industrial_Automation_Control_ET&hash=item2c7a0d4544

This one seems to be an SSR output which is the simplest one to use, the one I got ended up being a relay output which meant it I'd have to use a separate DC power supply to supply the voltage to the SSR. In the end it was easier to open up the PID and remove the relays and solder in a couple of jumpers.

I can't find the exact diagrams and instructions I used but these give a good description of what to do ; http://up.picr.de/3043530.pdf

I didn't bother removing the thermostat I just stuck the thermocouple to the top of the boiler with bluetack, although long term I would have used SUGRU.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Ivan, I'm just wondering why you don't have your Classic on a timer switch to switch it on and off, you pick up event based timers i.e. more than one on-off cycle per day pretty cheaply and even if you want the high tech version a Belkin Wemo is only around £40.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Charlie, my only concern with using a timer on Classic would be that fact that boiler doesn't auto refill so if you don't remember to re prime it after steaming then you could potentially overheat it blowing the safety fuse (or worse!). As long as you are diligent in your "shutdown" routine after making a coffee then it should be fine but definitely something to be aware of.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

My routine,

1. Get up, switch gaggia on, leave for 20-30 mins with cups on top and pf in place to warm up.

2. Hit brew switch into empty cup for about 6-7 seconds.

3. Grind beans, pop out pf and wipe clean/dry, tamp grind. lock pf back in place.

4. Whilst this is happening i keep an eye on the temp reader i have fitted, i know if its below 98c and dropping then i wait for light to go off, 5 seconds after light comes back on hit brew.

5. Stop brew, hit steam switch, sort milk out in jug, take out pf and clean, put pf back in.

6. Purge steam wand, steam milk.

7. Turn off steam switch, hit brew switch for 6-7 seconds, go back to third step for next shot.

Seems to work ok for me.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

marcuswar said:


> Charlie, my only concern with using a timer on Classic would be that fact that boiler doesn't auto refill so if you don't remember to re prime it after steaming then you could potentially overheat it blowing the safety fuse (or worse!). As long as you are diligent in your "shutdown" routine after making a coffee then it should be fine but definitely something to be aware of.


True I guess in the 7 years I owned my Classic it became something I did without even thinking about it, that said it is very good practice indeed to make sure the boiler is refilled after every round of coffees, and even if you switch on manually and leave to heat up without having refilled the boiler this could happen, although it is far less likely on a Classic than a Silvia as the element is on the boiler wall.


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## charlessar (Jun 24, 2021)

my new baby gaggia 06 struggles to steam if I pull shot first. the steam button does not stay pushed in and pushes out if the machine is warm.

To bypass this I have to press the steam button soon after switching on the machine and froth milk first.

if I leave too long the steam push button switch pops out and makes a very weak steam.

any suggestion?

tx

shahid


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