# 1 group lever from ACS - Vostok 1 group



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

As there are plenty of lever enthusiasts in this forum - including myself - I thought I'd share this post, from CoffeeTime:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430.html#p5010

Seems like it's a single group lever, and might even be a dual boiler?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Uses the San Marco double spring lever group - interesting. If it gets into production and the price is right - could be a real contender for the LR 24.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Even more so if it's £1000 cheaper!

P.S. Could be wishful thinking of course...


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I don't want to hear news like this. Dave going put you on my block lis.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Jony said:


> I don't want to hear news like this. Dave going put you on my block lis.


 Just remember what you paid for yours! 😉


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

If this happens at the right price I'm going to have a serious case of upgradeitis!


----------



## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

I really hoped this would be announced longer after I bought the MaraX 😬

Dave if you make me spend even more after the Niche and the MaraX I'm going to be single really quickly...!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

jaffro said:


> I really hoped this would be announced longer after I bought the MaraX 😬
> 
> Dave if you make me spend even more after the Niche and the MaraX I'm going to be single really quickly...!


 One of the reasons I bought my machine. Should the worse happens, I could always say something along the lines of "It didn't work out, and Elizabeth moved in". 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jony said:


> I don't want to hear news like this. Dave going put you on my block lis.


 Stop buying shit or else


----------



## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

OK, this is interesting.

With the Vesuvius on the bench, the only Machines that still tempt me is the idea of going Spring Lever (Londinium basically) for the shot quality:simplicity ratio , or maybe looking at flow profiling (even though I can and do, prepare long bloom shots on the V. Amongst many other pointless tricks)

The Niche is a good enough grinder for me in so many ways, though a single dosing affordable big flat would defo raise an interest.

An ACS 1 group spring lever, at the right price is a proper spanner in the works here 🤣


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

The group heater/s giving a total warmup time of 15 minutes is (to me) *very *desirable. I have a Brugnetti Aurora lever machine with a PID'd heater blanket on its group and it totally changes the useability of a big lever machine.

I haven't tried the famed La San Marco lever group yet but all readings indicate that it is a phenomenal thing.

Also a real plus would be the overall quality and thought put into another ACS machine, if the Vesuvius is anything to go by.

I am really looking forward to hearing more about this machine!


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

This looks super interesting and am sure it will bring some new tech to the lever market, about time someone other than londinium progressed home lever machines.


----------



## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

steveholt said:


> With the Vesuvius on the bench, the only Machines that still tempt me is the idea of going Spring Lever


 Same here, I am excited to see the final machine. Hopefully, we will not have to wait too long!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I have been asked about the pump ACS want to use and whether it's OK. It's a nice quiet 24 volt rotary unit good to 4 bar. So variable preinfusion should be on the cards and perhaps even profiled preinfusion. Along with all the other good stuff of course.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I have been asked about the pump ACS want to use and whether it's OK. It's a nice quiet 24 volt rotary unit good to 4 bar. So variable preinfusion should be on the cards and perhaps even profiled preinfusion. Along with all the other good stuff of course.


 FABULOUS!!!! ACS continues to innovate.....


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Have to say that I have appreciated your input in helping develop and refine coffee machinery way back since the Toper Cafemino days, Dave. :good:


----------



## oskuk (Oct 20, 2020)

After thinking 3 years of Bosco, this is now under the ice lurking... but it has the Rocket-effect: who wants real thing from Napoli called some russian term? I'd sure stamp some plate "Campi Flegrei" or some feminine, like "Sofia Pozzuolese" ....no no, lets' get it just straight and clear. Let's call it Somma 😉


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

oskuk said:


> After thinking 3 years of Bosco, this is now under the ice lurking... but it has the Rocket-effect: who wants real thing from Napoli called some russian term? I'd sure stamp some plate "Campi Flegrei" or some feminine, like "Sofia Pozzuolese" ....no no, lets' get it just straight and clear. Let's call it Somma 😉


 Very good! At first I was like.... Is this a reference to Aldous Huxley Brave New World? And then the penny dropped! 👍- I'll let people do their homework, so no spoilers.

Genius.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hopefully it's going to be competitively priced , it would be a clear winner over Londinium for a low volume household for coffee making.

Am very interested in the development of this one


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hysaf said:


> Hopefully it's going to be competitively priced , it would be a clear winner over Londinium for a low volume household for coffee making.
> 
> Am very interested in the development of this one


 It's intended to be very competitive and offer a lot of features.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Really looking forward to this one. And I love the name "Somma" perfect!


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

hysaf said:


> Hopefully it's going to be competitively priced , it would be a clear winner over Londinium for a low volume household for coffee making.
> 
> Am very interested in the development of this one


 It will be interesting to see if it is better than the the LR24.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Will be very interesting.


----------



## JackHK (Aug 26, 2017)

coffeechap said:


> It will be interesting to see if it is better than the the LR24.


 HX vs Dual Boiler, is compairless 😉


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

JackHK said:


> HX vs Dual Boiler, is compairless 😉


 Ha ha if only it were that simple 😜


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> Ha ha if only it were that simple 😜


 Don't be a tease, Dave, explain why.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't be a tease, Dave, explain why.


 Am sure the experts involved will have everything covered.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

JackHK said:


> HX vs Dual Boiler, is compairless 😉





coffeechap said:


> Ha ha if only it were that simple 😜





The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't be a tease, Dave, explain why.





coffeechap said:


> Am sure the experts involved will have everything covered.


 Would be much more helpful Dave if you shared your technical views vis a vis HX vs dual boiler.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Would be much more helpful Dave if you shared your technical views vis a vis HX vs dual boiler.


 My thoughts are that to merely state it's incomparable is a pretty bold statement. The vostok should be meticulously designed, tested and reviewed.

I look forward to seeing it in the flesh


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> The vostok should be meticulously designed, tested and reviewed.


 As I guess we would all agree and expect it to be.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> As I guess we would all agree and expect it to be.


 *I might well have a look at the formal detailed Londinum reviews for the last few models (especially the LR24)* *prior to their release*, at least it will help me understand the standards and tests that were applied. It will be nice to get a detailed internal tour and overview of the various Londinium models, as well as some technicals. I wouldn't want to fall short of the standard expected and not deliver my usual high quality, detailed reviews.

I am in the process of making some new technical gear to test thermals because Paolo is using the more expensive La San Marco group (as it has good design for the implementation of PID controlled group heaters), rather than the cheaper Firenzato group, which also only supports a thermosyphon design. So I need some 53 mm test gear that fits the LSM Group. Especially as twin boilers and 3 PIDs (including the group one) need to be set up correctly for all espresso temperature ranges the user selects. Plus the 15m warm up, I'd like to personally validate accurately, along with the effects of preinfusion on thermals in the coffee. It's going to be interesting to see what they found for the Londinium LR24 when I read the review. Might also give me some testing tips.

P.S. If anyone has any links to the formal detailed Londinium reviews... it will save me searching


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> *I might well have a look at the formal detailed Londinum reviews for the last few models (especially the LR24)* *prior to their release*, at least it will help me understand the standards and tests that were applied. It will be nice to get a detailed internal tour and overview of the various Londinium models, as well as some technicals. I wouldn't want to fall short of the standard expected and not deliver my usual high quality, detailed reviews.


 I shall try and comment again without getting modded.

Most manufacturers do not need detailed reviews to sell machines, I believe all londinium development is done at factory with the exception of a few machines that go live early to iron out any problems. I am pretty sure Reiss (who has many years of lever development experience) doesn't really need a review to do development.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I shall try and comment again without getting modded.
> 
> Most manufacturers do not need detailed reviews to sell machines, I believe all londinium development is done at factory with the exception of a few machines that go live early to iron out any problems. I am pretty sure Reiss (who has many years of lever development experience) doesn't really need a review to do development.


 I believe you have misunderstood the purpose of a review. *It's for the consumer,* to give them enough information to make decisions.

Some manufacturers prefer to have some "direct feedback" as an internal engineering review on their equipment, so they can make it as good as possible for the consumer. That's an internal review just for them and can "iron out" a lot of problems before go live. Many manufacturers of machines, grinders and roasters decided that it was useful to them. Reisss obviously feels it's not of any value, which is an interesting view...

However, this thread is about the V-Vostock, or whatever it ends up being called and not about the Londinium, neither am I interested in comparisons in the performance of each machine. That's not what I do, I'll simply complete an evidence based review of a machine and the customer can decide.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

The real question is will it make a good cup of coffee without a load of faff ?

three PIDs ??? Wow I am sure some people want to tinker for sure but does this require loads of set up ,I thought the idea of a lever was to make an espresso with very little work .

This isn't a dig at the machine by any stretch of the imagination, just curious and wondering the thinking behind this model .

I always thought the Vesuvius was the machine for those who want to tinker with different profiles and temperatures .

PS

any chance of one in a forum raffle for Christmas would be awesome


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> three PIDs ???


 I don't see how this is a surprise. The proposed machine has 3 sources of heat:

- 1: Electric heated group;
- 2: Service boiler for steam and hot water;
- 3: Brew boiler for coffee.

if one wishes to control the temperature of those three sources without a fair amount of guess work and programming to try to anticipate what the temperature of one source of heat should be based on another, then you need 3 ways of effectively measuring, controlling and applying heat - which with today's available mass produced technology, is best achieved with a PID controller. Yes, you could have a pressure stat to control the service boiler, but why? It's noisy and it has a deadband. Keep to the same tech, keep it simple. Likewise you could have a thermostat to control the group electric heater, but we all know the trade-offs of that approach. It doesn't mean you'll have three physical PID displays on the machine. But you need three independent processes to be able to control them. It's the same on dual boiler machines: in order to control both boilers accurately, you'll need two independent PIDs processes (I think the term process here is also known as "loop").


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't see how this is a surprise. The proposed machine has 3 sources of heat:
> 
> - 1: Electric heated group;
> - 2: Service boiler for steam and hot water;
> ...


 Three independent PIDs on the same machine doesn't sound like a keep it simple approach to me , but what do I know .


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> Three independent PIDs on the same machine doesn't sound like a keep it simple approach to me , but what do I know .


 I understand that. But mid/top end prosumer dual boiler machines have two separate PID processes (QuickMills, Profitec, ECMs, Lelit, ACS, etc) - Would be interesting to see Londinium approach if/when they make a dual boiler machine. Will they put two PID's in it? Who knows.

So it only seems natural to me that, if another source of heat is added, another means of controlling it should be added. To me it's more complex if each one of the sources had different ways of controlling it. That would be "complicated" to me, at least.

Take the Pro-300: The Service boiler is controlled by a Pstat, but the brew boiler is controlled by a PID. The Pro-600 and 700 controls both boilers with PIDs. One of the reasons I excluded the Pro-300 from my list when I recently changed my machine. Makes no sense.


----------



## Ozzyjohn (May 31, 2020)

For me, it's a balance between simple to construct vs simple to use. Three PIDs would be very simple to use in day to day service, many people wouldn't ever need or want to adjust the temperatures. But they could (easily) if they chose to. The machine would be "simpler" without them (and this might not matter if the chosen temperature controls were good) - but any desire by the end user to adjust any of the temperatures would become less simple to achieve.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Levers have remained pretty much the same since Gaggia's first in 1947. But then, espresso was a ristretto made from very dark roasts. Getting the best out of lighter roasts benefits from being able to adjust temperature so anything that aids that and ensures temp stability and accuracy is helpful. If the Vostock can do this via the use of PIDs it will be popular.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I imagine the group PID would look after itself in a way. I wouldn't even be surprised if the user was encouraged not to adjust it and it adjusted itself based off the users input of the brew boiler temperature. The service boiler PID would be pretty much set and forget as with all of them.

A PID doesn't even have to mean displays and lots of user input the real beauty of a PID is about temperature stability.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Ozzyjohn said:


> For me, it's a balance between simple to construct vs simple to use. Three PIDs would be very simple to use in day to day service, many people wouldn't ever need or want to adjust the temperatures. But they could (easily) if they chose to. The machine would be "simpler" without them (and this might not matter if the chosen temperature controls were good) - but any desire by the end user to adjust any of the temperatures would become less simple to achieve.


 The user has one temperature control, they can raise or lower the temperature of the shot...perhaps this video makes it clearer. The bottom half of the panel switches the individual group on or off...the top button allows you to set the brew temperature individually for each group on a multi group machine. That's it....perhaps this will be too much tech for some, i don't know. It depends whether they want the advantages of a dual boiler system, or prefer the old school approach.

The very far right buttons are settings like steam boiler on/off and advanced settings (which people should only need to set up once (or use the factory presets).






Now if preinfusion is added then that could be linked to unused display areas on a single group machine...allowing a press of a button to select it...all a bit up in the air at the moment.

The La San Marco Group is very pretty both in looks and from an engineering standpoint. Currently it looks as if the V-Vostock is able to use double springs as well, tuned for the same performance as the commercial levers.... 🙂


----------



## Rapid (Jun 12, 2020)

coffeechap said:


> Most manufacturers do not need detailed reviews to sell machines


 That may be so but as a consumer knowing full well that my knowledge on machines is very much underdeveloped, I always appreciate an expert view. I could extend that to anything to be fair. the issue is verifying the reliability of the review(er). Taking what I know of Hoffman for example, I trust his reviews, not everyone does. I'm thankful for @DavecUKdoing such detailed reviews like he did for the Niche, which I found a very informative read.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I mentioned earlier that I have a 1980's Brugnetti Aurora that has a heater installed on the group for rapid warmups.

The group idles at 60C plus (from my measuring point). I have set the PID for this group heater at 58C, so that it only ever operates when warming the group from a cold start. I am making the assumption that the V-Vostok group heater operates in the same way...and doesn't turn on and off all the time like the group element. Is my assumption correct Dave?

The other 2 PIDs make the operating system no more complicated than any other dual boiler machine that I have knowledge of. Turn the steam boiler off (like I will) and there would only be one PID working after warm-up has been achieved.

In my Aurora, the group heater allows the normal 45-50 minute warmup to occur in around 16 minutes. *This is such a desirable feature. My Aurora has gone from a morning machine that has warmed up on a timer whilst I was getting ready to wake up to an any time machine. *

This feature alone makes the V-Vostok a winner in my book.

I am also excited about the group pressure gauge for pressure profiled shots and the ability to turn off the steam boiler when not needed. Stainless boilers will be nifty also. Operating from a tank as well as plumb-in makes the machine so versatile. And having a pump to do programmed pre-infusions would be awesome.

Can't wait to hear more about its development!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Vostok has 2 heaters per group, PID controlled, no thermosyhon, the brew boiler has a PID that keeps it close to group temp and the group does the final bit of work to hit the temp set by the user.

It has a similar warmup time of 15m.

I think a little bit of modern tech can help the old school stuff work even better.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

So will the 2 group heaters keep operating once the group has achieved operating temperature?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo5 said:


> So will the 2 group heaters keep operating once the group has achieved operating temperature?


 Yes, or it would cool down again.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rapid said:


> That may be so but as a consumer knowing full well that my knowledge on machines is very much underdeveloped, I always appreciate an expert view. I could extend that to anything to be fair. the issue is verifying the reliability of the review(er). Taking what I know of Hoffman for example, I trust his reviews, not everyone does. I'm thankful for @DavecUKdoing such detailed reviews like he did for the Niche, which I found a very informative read.


 I couldn't agree more. I was going to write something along these lines yesterday, but ended up not bothering. To me, given the fact that a lot of us buy machines without ever seeing one in the flesh, let alone using it, in depth reviews are critical. If a manufacturer does an in-depth review, that's slightly different because people can find that bias towards their own product. However, even an in-depth review by the manufacturer could prove valuable if they are honest and the person watching it knows what to look out for. Let me give you an example: Let's, say, hypothetically, that manufacturer A does an "in-depth" review of his own machine. Of course, the manufacturer will not want to reveal any shortcuts or any issues they know the machine would not fare well at. So, if the user is looking for a machine which he expects to be great at steaming, as an example, and the manufacturer decides to keep the steaming functionality demonstration very brief, or doesn't show it doing the daily job, then the prospective buyer might starting doubting such capabilities. It's one thing to say how wonderful a machine is, but it's something different to be honest and say "hey, this might not be the machine for you if you are expecting X, Y and Z". The problem is, manufacturers, quite rightly, would want to focus on their product and sell it. it makes no sense to be impartial. Independent reviewers, however, don't have a problem in exposing any flaws. Even better, if an independent reviewer has an open channel of communication directly with the manufacturer and influence feedback and design suggestions, then what's there not to like? I would consult such reviewers' every time. It's not all wonderful and plain sailing, however. Imagine being the independent reviewer, and a manufacturer ask you to review a product. There's no point in making it public and "shame it". It's much better to feedback to the manufacturer what didn't go so well. If they take the feedback and improve the product, then it would certainly be a winner.

IMVHO.


----------



## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I understand that. But mid/top end prosumer dual boiler machines have two separate PID processes (QuickMills, Profitec, ECMs, Lelit, ACS, etc) - Would be interesting to see Londinium approach if/when they make a dual boiler machine. Will they put two PID's in it? Who knows.
> So it only seems natural to me that, if another source of heat is added, another means of controlling it should be added. To me it's more complex if each one of the sources had different ways of controlling it. That would be "complicated" to me, at least.
> Take the Pro-300: The Service boiler is controlled by a Pstat, but the brew boiler is controlled by a PID. The Pro-600 and 700 controls both boilers with PIDs. One of the reasons I excluded the Pro-300 from my list when I recently changed my machine. Makes no sense.


The new Rancilio Silvia Pro has 2 PID for each boiler.

Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

profesor_historia said:


> The new Rancilio Silvia Pro has 2 PID for each boiler.
> 
> Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


 You mean 2 PIDs, 1 for each boiler right?


----------



## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You mean 2 PIDs, 1 for each boiler right?


Sorry, yes, , 1 PID for each boiler, correct. I am playing with the service boiler temperature but didn't touch (yet) the steam boiler's one.

Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

profesor_historia said:


> Sorry, yes,   , 1 PID for each boiler, correct. I am playing with the service boiler temperature but didn't touch (yet) the steam boiler's one.
> 
> Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


 All good. Ps: service boiler = steam and hot water boiler. The other one is the brew boiler. ????????


----------



## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> All good. Ps: service boiler = steam and hot water boiler. The other one is the brew boiler.


Jesus, I still have to learn a lot. Thank you@MediumRoastSteam









Sent from my ALP-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I was writing something then changed my mind but couldn't work how to delete or stop posting it , so I'm afraid this the net result .

It was an objective comment on PID and there disadvantages but on reflection it has no bearing and superfluous in the context of their use on this machine .

love the shot mirrors on the machine in the video ,and the whole thing looks impressive .



DavecUK said:


> The Vostok has 2 heaters per group, PID controlled, no thermosyhon, the brew boiler has a PID that keeps it close to group temp and the group does the final bit of work to hit the temp set by the user.
> 
> It has a similar warmup time of 15m.
> 
> I think a little bit of modern tech can help the old school stuff work even


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> love the shot mirrors on the machine in the video ,and the whole thing looks impressive .


 The V-Vostok, or whatever it ends up being called won't have those...the Multi group Vostok was used in the Video just to show the simple control panel. You are right though when using the Vostock at Host, the mirrors were a nice touch, they seem to a feature more manufacturers are adding to their machines...Crem, Decent etc..


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Hey Dave,any new updates ?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hysaf said:


> Hey Dave,any new updates ?


 Nothing yet, I would imagine like other manufacturers they are trying to get machines out before Christmas. I would imagine they will use the holidays to get something done.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

hysaf said:


> Hey Dave,any new updates ?


 How about this?

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s110.html#p5978


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Am I allowed to say WOW........


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

ACS are to be congratulated for getting this project to where it is now - end phase despite the pandemic. Looking forward to seeing more pictures.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think congratulated is putting it mildly. To confirm, it has to go to testing now to make sure what works on paper will work in reality, but this machine might well be in the field sometime in March.


----------



## onluxtex (Nov 18, 2015)

I like the old style levers like Faema, Gaggia etc,

The idea to produce a dual boiler lever is great.

For me, I don't need a pump. Even to reduce the price. May be it could be an option for the clients who want it.

A lever machine with digital display is for my opinion a no go, Why not using the typical manometer?

I wish you good look with your project. I am starting to save money.....


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

onluxtex said:


> 1. For me, I don't need a pump. Even to reduce the price. May be it could be an option for the clients who want it.
> 
> 2. A lever machine with digital display is for my opinion a no go, Why not using the typical manometer?


 1. The machine has the same plumb option as the Vesuvius, where an internal tank is always filled by mains pressure, because of this a pump is needed to feed it to the machines. boilers/group

2. It has a Manometer on the group to show brew pressure. Other than that it's digital because it uses electronic thermal sensors and PIDs, not a pressurestat.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I might be wrong, but I do not really think the old lever versus new lever comparison really works. They are two are very different animals. I love old levers but they are frustrating, like any older version of anything you wish to mention, in as much as a large part of use is guess work. The 'new' approach through digital technology takes away this guesswork and might also dispel a few myths about temperature stability and the likes


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Davecuk

any updates on this project Dave? Would be kind of nice if it still looked like it might surface sometime in the next few months


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There are...

Please bear in mind this is an Alpha prototype. The group isn't brand new, the case is a defective one they had hanging about and* the display is glued onto the front just to make it easy to use,* it would actually be inset. The full machine will look something like this. Not 100% sure about the wands or the wood bits?





































so the Alpha (Frankenstein machine) is ready for me to start testing with...as soon as it arrives. The group and internals won't be subject to any change. Assuming it all functions correctly, it only needs the front panel changing and manufactured specifically for the La San Marco group and display to be properly inset. No strengthening of the front plate is required as the Vesuvius frame is incredibly strong and the front plate more so than any machine (due to a funny circumstance in the initial Vesuvius design). As for the final look, I don't know if it will match the renderings for PF handle and knob materials or steam/water wand config. The Alpha of course just has the standard Vesuvius ones and black phenolic....all enough for the proof of concept though.

This means that if testing is OK, it can move into production within weeks.. The actual Vostok dual boiler system works fine on multi-group machines. The software adaptations for single group working were made years ago. The control board is the same as used on a Vesuvius (and existing Vostoks) and has proven bulletproof over the years. Boilers are Minima boilers, again proven reliable with Incolloy 800 elements. Power supply, components, case, LSM group etc.. all known quantities. The only unknown is the Gear pump.

My tasks will be to ensure all the components work well together, that the machine operates correctly and the lever pull/stability is satisfactory. There is an opportunity to improve on the setup of the machine simply because it's a 1 group as opposed to a multi group. With a multi group the boiler has to be a slight compromise to all 2 or 3 lever groups because they can be set at any temperature..With a 1 group, the brew boiler only has to worry about a single group and the whole system can be optimally set up for precise temperature control.

The manometer on the gauge will for the first time allow a visual of exactly what's happening with pressure on the coffee and how the standard double spring setup really works. The issue of preinfusion pressure and how to set it needs to be explored. Lastly warm up times...which should be around 15 minutes.

The Machine should be shipped from Italy tomorrow by air, and I hope to have it early next week (possibly by the weekend)


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Excellent news...........for some


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

What's the round weight things that's held with string at the back for ?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rincewind said:


> What's the round weight things that's held with string at the back for ?


 It will be additional ballast to help ensure there is no tipping possible


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rincewind said:


> What's the round weight things that's held with string at the back for ?


 It was on the prototype for the initial pull test without the case on. There will be a rather attractive metal hook on the rear of the case and a special piece of string to hang them onto the machine. The ballast will be made of an attractive selection of irregularly sized scrap metal....which as it rusts will develop an attractive patina....😉


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Italians clearly know how to build quality gear🤣


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Does look nice.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Looks very nice.

Sorry if I've missed it, but is there a ball park price available?


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Around £2400 and 10 up for grabs I read, I could be wrong.


----------



## PortafilterProcrastinator (Aug 26, 2020)

Jony said:


> Around £2400 and 10 up for grabs I read, I could be wrong.


 Thanks. That's really quite limited.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Making more that's the first run of machines I'm led to believe. Better get transferwise set up😎🤣


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

The machine looks great, even in its Alpha "dress" 😀


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> It was on the prototype for the initial pull test without the case on. There will be a rather attractive metal hook on the rear of the case and a special piece of string to hang them onto the machine. *The ballast* will be made of an attractive selection of irregularly sized *scrap metal*....which *as it rusts will develop an attractive patina*...


 Ha ha well done matey, cool idea :classic_laugh: ...only downside is that "once" said ballast *starts to rust* then it will *no longer act as ballast*, thereby *defeating the object of it's purpose*....although that "patina" may add some "appeal" to it's ugliness :exit:


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Such a great achievement in the pandemic and price wise this will be very difficult to beat, i assume the price will be plus VAT as its coming from Italy? Which even so makes it a good deal for what it can potentially do.

I have a question, can the preinfusion pressure be adjusted on the fly at all?


----------



## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

John Yossarian said:


> The machine looks great, even in its *Alpha "dress"*


 John, that's not the correct picture....i have "*insider*" knowledge and as such i give to you the "official" pictures...enjoy :classic_laugh:


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Such a great achievement in the pandemic and price wise this will be very difficult to beat, i assume the price will be plus VAT as its coming from Italy? Which even so makes it a good deal for what it can potentially do.
> 
> I have a question, can the preinfusion pressure be adjusted on the fly at all?


 I think the price will be closer to £2600 all in and airshipped, but not 100% sure. Depends on all the new rules and final build cost. It's quite an expensive machine to build.

On the fly preinfusion pressure adjustment was not a design goal. Or seen as a key priority Vs the other key objectives. That said, I may modify the alpha to allow me to adjust it on the fly if that's possible. If I can make it work, then it could possibly be incorporated in the build the f it doesn't delay things and offers significant benefits..


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Adjustable pre-infusion pressure would be awesome! I will keep my fingers crossed that you are able to see a way of doing this, Dave.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Its a cracking price point for a spring lever machine.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I have a question, can the preinfusion pressure be adjusted on the fly at all?


 @coffeechap Do you know what....I gave it some thought and there is a way to do it and possibly quite elegantly. Not sure how much benefit there will be, but the challenge was there as a thought experiment. Paolo and I have talked and should there be no huge obstacles....yeah might well be in the production machine.

Good job you asked the question....


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> @coffeechap Do you know what....I gave it some thought and there is a way to do it and possibly quite elegantly. Not sure how much benefit there will be, but the challenge was there as a thought experiment. Paolo and I have talked and should there be no huge obstacles....yeah might well be in the production machine.
> 
> Good job you asked the question....


 That is excellent, no challenge at all despite your and other sceptimism I am genuinely pleased for this to come to the market, I am sure with you behind it it will be meticulously developed and any new levers are fab in my mind


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@coffeechap By challenge, I meant a personal challenge, like solving a crossword, or difficult puzzle. I think we may have found an interesting way to do it and that's half the fun for me..

I'm genuinely happy you asked the question, without it, the easier route may have been taken.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Got me excited with all this product development ideas flying around. Glad to have my name down for one!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think it's all great everyone has put down for one, but it makes me think I, and my review is superfluous to the decision-making process. Even so I will still plod through it all as thoroughly as I know how. It's 50% for you guys and the other 50% for ACS.

All the Tinwork is actually cut now, which is a shame as if there is manual variable preinfusion setting...it needs a hole in the front panel. The brew switch one would have been ideal but of course it's gone now. 4 issues/tasks for Paolo to do/test



Will it work...(I think yes) and sourcing the correct speed controller, plus an extra 24V power supply.


Trying it out before any front panels are drilled


Drilling the thick and very hard stainless front panel, cobalt bits, lots of oil, slow speeds, gentle pressure and Paolo doing it himself, because of chipping. A non Trival job


Finding a nice looking knob...which I guess will be relatively impossible (can't please all of the people), so I see a potential trade in hand made wooden knobs.


The machine has left ACS, I can only guess at when it will arrive at Heathrow and then subsequently reach me. I am told 15th Feb....but I would hope that's pessimistic.


My machine obviously won't have the variable preinfusion system, but I hope yours will, if Paolo can sort out the issues. The main benchmark I have is what the commercial Vostok was capable of at Host 2019...that's what I'm looking for.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Your review will be far from superfluous, Dave.

Having your input into design features (like the variable pre-infusion) is always a big plus for me.

If you do a review, will it be in the form of some Youtube clips? They have been a great reference point for me in the past.

I also really appreciated having a user manual...like you did with Cafemino, Vesuvius and the Dalian Roaster? These user manuals made it much easier for me to familiarize myself with these machines. Is it your intention to do one of these with the V-L?

Sounding optimistic about the likelihood of the Vostok/Vesuvius Leva having the ability to do variable pre-infusion.

Good luck with it!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I will probably knock up a manual in sway...which you can print out or save as .pdf

I hope to do a fair bit of YouTube.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, the V-Vostok landed with Davec today. He has a hectic day and asked me to post the pictures he has hurriedly taken. Please note, this is the first test machine so if you see bits of sticking plaster, do not worry. The latest potential mod for variable preinfusion is missing but Dave might as time allows, try and stick one in. Being a test machine, another whole will not affect its good looks! The front panel though, is seriously thick stainless steel so might prove a challenge!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

For the eagle eyed - third shot down is a Londinium R as reference for portafilter to drip tray clearance comparison. With naked portafilters fitted, Londinium R has about 5mm more clearance which isn't going to make any real difference.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUK any updates on the progress of your review matey


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Stop buying shit or else


 Yes I have been warned by the boss myself..


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @DavecUK any updates on the progress of your review matey


 Well it's not so much of a review and in taking what they sent me....telling them what needs changing and enjoying the machine...even though there are some issues with the Franken test bed...🤣 But then they wouldn't want to give me anything of value!

soon soon...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

How would you describe the shots you have pulled and do you think the Manometer is a gimmick or does it relay any useful information?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> How would you describe the shots you have pulled and do you think the Manometer is a gimmick or does it relay any useful information?


 Surprisingly useful, definitely not a gimmick.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

For the likes of me, that kind of struggle a little with all this technical stuff, could you write a couple of lines and explain what it actually does


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

I know this is not about the Vostok but in a way is related, was DaveC part of the design of the Vesuvius? This must have been discussed in the past but I have missed it. I suspect (in fact I am convinced) that he was instrumental of bringing the machine to the market (not only the review) and given the V success I have no doubt the Vostok (now it will be necessary to write up the full name to distinguish Vesuvius from Vostok) will be another successful story.

Not to mention the light speed of delivery from idea to prototype.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

John Yossarian said:


> I know this is not about the Vostok but in a way is related, was DaveC part of the design of the Vesuvius? This must have been discussed in the past but I have missed it. I suspect (in fact I am convinced) that he was instrumental of bringing the machine to the market (not only the review) and given the V success I have no doubt the Vostok (now it will be necessary to write up the full name to distinguish Vesuvius from Vostok) will be another successful story.
> 
> Not to mention the light speed of delivery from idea to prototype.


 I got the first prototype Vesuvius and the idea was great but the machine had a large number of technical problems that needed addressing before it came to market. These were from a general inexperience of dual Boiler E61 machines, up to then they had made commercial levers using the Fiorenzato and more expensive La San Marco groups.

I explained to them everything they needed to do with software, hardware and general design. it took a year but when it was done...it was done right.

With the V-Vostok, it was a bit different. Paolo had come up with a 1 group design based around the existing commercial Vostok, this didn't scale down well and the machine was too large, the lack of a water tank and using the commercial interior configuration wasn't ideal. For 3 years the project languished and I got a bit frustrated, because I do actually like professional lever groups, especially the La San Marco group, which I first used on a Pompeii almost 15 years ago.

Technically a dual boiler lever has a number of design and inherent technical challenges that don't exist in the simple dipper or HX system, but does have some big advantages, so it's well worth making it work. It needed to be something that could take the group in a professional configuration (group manufacturers words not mine). The prosumer configuration of commercial spring levers is done to make them easier to pull and of course able to be placed in a smaller, often less heavy case. It also allows an easier build and control of build costs. The downside is the pressure profile and maximum pressure is completely different and not what these groups were designed for (again from the group manufacturers).

To make the project a reality, I had to suggest a design that could be realised quickly and that was able to support the pull force of a professionally configured La San Marco group. The Vesuvius case was the ideal candidate...immensely strong for its weight, spaceframe style construction, with flex, but not breakage and all the tank, water level handling etc.. already sorted out. The ideal boilers were Minima Boilers, perfect for the job and better for steaming than a Vesuvius, thick heavy but space efficient with incolloy 800 heating elements. To keep the compact layout because dual boilers take up space a suitable very compact 24V gear pump was found. After that it's just the usual formula of 3 independent PIDs, which existed in the V commercial main board...again it's proved bulletproof over the years.

3 months later, Frankenstein arrived in my kitchen. I've pulled quite a few shots with it now and although it's no where near the finished article, even in it's current state...I don't think it's going to be leaving my bench....the shots are every bit as good as the commercial Vostok...well better actually, because this time it's my coffee.

I really love helping bring something "new" to the market.

I did think *on the fly variable preinfusion* was a good idea, but since trying the machine, and having a word with some technical people, I've realised it's not required for the LSM group in it's professional configuration. In fact the group is designed to work at a preinfusion pressure of approx 2 bar really. So I decided to advise them how to make the machine Tunable...allowing the user to set the preinfusion pressure they like best....from around 1 bar to almost 4 bar. It has the additional advantage of keeping the machine technically simpler.

The other area I am looking at is the accessories that will come with the machine.


----------



## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

@DavecUK Does this machine have a pressure stat? I was reading in another thread about @The Systemic Kid's L1 and how it had a stat? Are they necessary in lever machines?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cooffe said:


> @DavecUK Does this machine have a pressure stat? I was reading in another thread about @The Systemic Kid's L1 and how it had a stat? Are they necessary in lever machines?


 The V-Vostok does have a pressurestat, but it's not used how you think....the lever group itself has no electric connection to the pump or main board. The pressurestat in the Vostok is purely used to detect a drop in pressure within the sealed system because the lever has been pulled and opens a valve into the group chamber....it then starts the pump.

All thermal management is by PID and sensors, not a pressurestat.


----------



## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> The V-Vostok does have a pressurestat, but it's not used how you think....the lever group itself has no electric connection to the pump or main board. The pressurestat in the Vostok is purely used to detect a drop in pressure within the sealed system because the lever has been pulled and opens a valve into the group chamber....it then starts the pump.
> 
> All thermal management is by PID and sensors, not a pressurestat.


 So a pressure stat can control temperature? Would it not then be called a temperature stat?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cooffe said:


> So a pressure stat can control temperature? Would it not then be called a temperature stat?


 You could call it that if you want, but no one would understand what you were referring to.


----------



## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> You could call it that if you want, but no one would understand what you were referring to.


 Fair enough. And a last (probably) stupid question from me... As 1f =/= 1c, do you have to be specific in which manufacturers you go to? Basically would it be possible to fix an American machine with a UK part as they use farenheit and not Celcius?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cooffe said:


> Fair enough. And a last (probably) stupid question from me... As 1f =/= 1c, do you have to be specific in which manufacturers you go to? Basically would it be possible to fix an American machine with a UK part as they use farenheit and not Celcius?


 V-Vostok will display in F, often all the stuff works internally in Celcius. Most parts are universal, some even for US vs UK voltage.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

@DaveCThank you very much for the very interesting description of the design process. It is remarkable that you have managed to get the LSM brewing group to perform as intended despite the "manufacturer's statement".

I know that everyone who visits this thread frequently is impatient to read/(watch the videos) your review.

Stays safe!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

John Yossarian said:


> @DaveCThank you very much for the very interesting description of the design process. It is remarkable that you have managed to get the LSM brewing group to perform as intended despite the "manufacturer's statement".
> 
> I know that everyone who visits this thread frequently is impatient to read/(watch the videos) your review.
> 
> Stays safe!


 Don't misunderstand, it's the commercial spring levers in a prosumer single spring configuration that don't work as intended. They were designed with 2 springs and approx 2 bar preinfusion for a reason. it does make them significantly harder to pull, so this places more challenges on the case and machine design.

To give you an example a typical single spring configuration maxes out at around 8 bar (that's against a blind filter), against coffee it might not even quite make 8 bar, then will drop *very* rapidly, with a large proportion of the shot produced at sub-optimal pressures. Certainly nowhere near design pressures.

A double spring maxes out at 10.2 to 11 bar depending on spring age (the group in Frankenstein is probably 10+ years old and came out of a well-used commercial machine). The profile is also quite different. A single spring prosumer config can have the lever cocked with your little finger...with a professional 2 spring set up....no way, you won't even move it more than 5mm..It's why commercial spring levers are mounted up on higher counters, to make them more comfortable to pull.

When you get that great shot on a commercial machine in a hi end coffee bar and want to replicate it at home, it's pretty hard because their setup and the prosumer one is so different. My involvement in levers started with the Izzo Pompeii over 15 years ago, which was a LSM style group, dual spring. Always produced a great shot, but the single group was too large, so I gave up on owning one. 🤣

Paolo at ACS has considerable experience in levers over many many years, long before the more standard pumped machines..


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> ........
> 
> The other area I am looking at is the accessories that will come with the machine.


 Hi Dave, it would be great if the machine could come with single, double, and, most importantly, naked portafilter and precision fit tamper (around 54.5- 54.6 mm dia, if I understand correctly that the baskets for a 54mm group are 55mm).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rusty pie said:


> Hi Dave, it would be great if the machine could come with single, double, and, most importantly, naked portafilter and precision fit tamper (around 54.5- 54.6 mm dia, if I understand correctly that the baskets for a 54mm group are 55mm).


 It will come with single, double and naked double, I'm looking at stuff beyond all that, although the tamper I got isn't exactly precision fit, but it is ACS, metal and seems to work...the group is 53mm. I'm trying to lump in lever group rebuild kits to cover 3 or 4 years and water valve rebuild kits to cover 6-10 years and a bag full of steel shower screen snap rings, plus some other bits. I just got to make sure I don't forget anything.

I like to see people get value...manufacturers don't like those ideas of mine so much...but they like the free help <lol>


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> It will come with single, double and naked double, I'm looking at stuff beyond all that, although the tamper I got isn't exactly precision fit, but it is ACS, metal and seems to work...the group is 53mm. I'm trying to lump in lever group rebuild kits to cover 3 or 4 years and water valve rebuild kits to cover 6-10 years and a bag full of steel shower screen snap rings, plus some other bits. I just got to make sure I don't forget anything.
> 
> I like to see people get value...manufacturers don't like those ideas of mine so much...but they like the free help <lol>


 It is quite obvious this is a project very close to your heart.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> It will come with single, double and naked double, I'm looking at stuff beyond all that, although the tamper I got isn't exactly precision fit, but it is ACS, metal and seems to work...the group is 53mm. I'm trying to lump in lever group rebuild kits to cover 3 or 4 years and water valve rebuild kits to cover 6-10 years and a bag full of steel shower screen snap rings, plus some other bits. I just got to make sure I don't forget anything.
> 
> I like to see people get value...manufacturers don't like those ideas of mine so much...but they like the free help <lol>


 That will be a worthy addition to the machine which I'm sure customers will appreciate very much.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

John Yossarian said:


> It is quite obvious this is a project very close to your heart.


 It's the most fun part of the hobby, the new stuff. This had been discussed for many years but had gone nowhere until we changed the vision completely and capitalised on what ACS already had that had proved excellent. The Vesuvius case made rapid development possible.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I have a Vesuvius and an early Londinium 1 and the Vesuvius case is incredibly solid. Probably just the connection to the drip tray is where it might need strengthening as stress on this area isn't a thing on an E61. An exciting project. I'm telling myself that it will be too heavy to carry to use at Farmers Markets in order to save my back - and my wallet!


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Stevebee


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> I have a Vesuvius and an early Londinium 1 and the Vesuvius case is incredibly solid. Probably just the connection to the drip tray is where it might need strengthening as stress on this area isn't a thing on an E61. An exciting project. I'm telling myself that it will be too heavy to carry to use at Farmers Markets in order to save my back - and my wallet!


 The Vesuvius case is very strong. Rather than use a new one for what is just a test bed, they used an old one and removed all the extra reinforcement that's standard behind the front panel, so they could fit the group... 😂 Obviously new reinforcement will be in production models. My case doesn't even have any bottom panels.....and of course almost twice the spring force of a prosumer spring lever...

Oh, yeah it's heavy....


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> @Stevebee


 My wife and I are expecting a delivery in March so finances will be tight.

The delivery is an Ultra grinder so I can't push it too far ????


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> My wife and I are expecting a delivery in March so finances will be tight.
> 
> The delivery is an Ultra grinder so I can't push it too far 😀


 You can always get one of the Lidl machines to pair with it...(the ones in the Hoffs review), until you build your savings again. 😁

I'm just jealous...very nice grinder, If I had the money I would go for one too.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This came up on my Youtube feed and might be of interest to some on here. Longer intro to cover new info!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)




----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

if anybody who has put their name down for one of these, wants to either pm me or say so here, then it might be useful once they arrive so we can set up a group of some sort


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Am I right in thinking when the lever is pulled the cam at the back of the group activates the pump to fill the brew chamber from the boiler?

Or does it just fill on pressure from the boiler alone?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Am I right in thinking when the lever is pulled the cam at the back of the group activates the pump to fill the brew chamber from the boiler?
> 
> Or does it just fill on pressure from the boiler alone?


 As it's dual boiler and always feeds from internal tank even when plumbed, yes the pump fills the group.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> As it's dual boiler and always feeds from internal tank even when plumbed, yes the pump fills the group.


 So in theory you could leave the lever down and pull a shot on pump pressure?


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> So in theory you could leave the lever down and pull a shot on pump pressure?


 I think the pump doesn't go above 4 bars?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> So in theory you could leave the lever down and pull a shot on pump pressure?


 No, a gear pump was chosen that had a maximum pressure of 4.2 bar but a very good flow rate. The pre infusion pressure people would use is envisaged to be between 1 and maximum 4 bar but probably 3.5.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

John Yossarian said:


> I think the pump doesn't go above 4 bars?


 Ahh, it would be pretty pointless anyway to be honest, I am just curious.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> No, a gear pump was chosen that had a maximum pressure of 4.2 bar but a very good flow rate. The pre infusion pressure people would use is envisaged to be between 1 and maximum 4 bar but probably 3.5.


 Got it. Cheers Dave.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Ahh, it would be pretty pointless anyway to be honest, I am just curious.


 With the configuration of the LSM group it would be pointless. It generates good pressure with a profile as it should be and designed for preinfusion pressures below 3.5 bar.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am totally unsure on the relevance of bar pressure to pre-infusion. I think boiler temp has a far greater effect on the shot. Ok, so in theory you can using an ap, change your bp but apart from visually seeing the change, can anything happen so quickly?


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Just finished reading the entire thread, I am rather tempted with one of these units but have not fully committed yet, very close to buying this over a V or even a LMLM...


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

So, I am wondering how well the vostok would handle lighter roasts?

I tend to enjoy a variety of roasts, the main reason I didnt settle on the LMLM was that lighter roasts may not be ideal for that machine..

So, how would the vostok be with different roast profiles? Again this (ability to get the best from light and dark roasts) is the main reason I was looking at the vesuvius!


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

AFAIK the LMLM isn't anything special. Saturated group. The paddle isn't functional for flow profiling I don't think, not without modification anyway unless they've changed it.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> AFAIK the LMLM isn't anything special. Saturated group. The paddle isn't functional for flow profiling I don't think, not without modification anyway unless they've changed it.


 Yup, ofcourse but what it does have going for it (imo) is longevity, knowing that parts and an engineer who knows how to service it will still be around in 15+ years is nice to know.

I guess what I am asking is for someone to explain what the vostok has over the LMLM (I know a of a fair few, but would like to hear it from someone else to confirm)


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Yup, ofcourse but what it does have going for it (imo) is longevity, knowing that parts and an engineer who knows how to service it will still be around in 15+ years is nice to know.
> 
> I guess what I am asking is for someone to explain what the vostok has over the LMLM (I know a of a fair few, but would like to hear it from someone else to confirm)


 Both Vesuvius and Vostok (this is expected) come equipped with high quality parts, similar to what LMLM sports inside. Longevity-wise they should not differ.

I have not used a lever machine myself but like to profiling on the V that gives me that option and I enjoy sweet shots.

I trust DavecUK when he says that this machine (Vostok) is comprised of a lot of advancement in the coffee engineering and I have no doubt it would be a great lever machine once it hits the market, which is in near future.

For example the pump driven pre-infusion is something that other lever machines do not have. Is this a crucial for the quality of shots, time will tell. Being able to control this stage of brewing is essential IMHO.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Holonomic said:


> I guess what I am asking is for someone to explain what the vostok has over the LMLM (I know a of a fair few, but would like to hear it from someone else to confirm)


 I think until production machines are in the hands of owners, it will be difficult to know anything. They are 2 very different machines and it's going to depend on what it is you want from a machine.


----------



## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

John Yossarian said:


> For example the pump driven pre-infusion is something that other lever machines do not have.


 Just for accuracy - my Londinium R has that feature and though now superseded, the replacement model LR 24 supposedly has that feature too. As I don't have the newer model, I can't say for sure. I set my PI from 1 to 6 bar on the fly with an app.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

on both the Londinium R and R 24, the rotary pump drives pre-infusion hence the ability to adjust up to 6 bar.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> on both the Londinium R and R 24, the rotary pump drives pre-infusion hence the ability to adjust up to 6 bar.


 I'm wondering if there is some confusion over the V-Vostock having twin boilers, pid shot temperature control with active group heating and display of actual shot pressure allowing some control over the extraction profile.

It's why I think there will be more clarity when owners get full production machines.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Marocchino said:


> Just for accuracy - my Londinium R has that feature and though now superseded, the replacement model LR 24 supposedly has that feature too. As I don't have the newer model, I can't say for sure. I set my PI from 1 to 6 bar on the fly with an app.


 I stand corrected.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Marocchino said:


> Just for accuracy - my Londinium R has that feature and though now superseded, the replacement model LR 24 supposedly has that feature too. As I don't have the newer model, I can't say for sure. I set my PI from 1 to 6 bar on the fly with an app.


 Is that a bit like how the Strega functions?


----------



## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

dfk41 said:


> Is that a bit like how the Strega functions?


 Couldn't honestly say, I know nothing about the Strega - this is only my second machine in about 20 years of coffee making.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

As many will attest, I am not the most technical of people! I had a Strega many years ago and without checking back, I am sure this was how it operated. On an L1, the pump used to be used only for transferring the water from the reservoir into the boiler, but on the Strega, the pump was used to force water from the boiler into the group. This meant it ws possible to mimic pulling a shot on the pump only and for that reason, the more purist lever owner used to decry the Strega as not being a proper pump. Now, I have not really kept up to speed with all the intricate tweekings of the Londinium series, but if I am right, then the LR24 uses a rotary pump to control the PI pressure. My question to those who will be able to answer this, is surely this is a slightly more advanced version of how the Strega operates? Personally, I always liked the Strega so I am pleased to see others taking on board technology they have been using for years to try and improve things.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

There are a number of versions of the Strega. As you point out one of them uses a vibration pump to fill the group. You could in theory manipulate this to preinfuse at any pressure up to 9bar by lifting the lever to stop the pump or even just pull a shot like a standard pump machine by leaving the lever down. The difficulty comes as there is no way to know exactly what the pressure is in the group at any given time. You could of course have someone like me with a pf manometer adjust the OPV down to set the pump pressure and therefore preinfusion to a lower level for if you wished at time of purchase.

There is another version that is plumbed in with no pump at all and operates like a very traditional lever machine. That would of course preinfuse at line pressure.

They are a great machine and they offer amazing flexibility and their price point is fantastic for a full blown spring lever affair.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

So, other than the group size and choice of case is there other differences in the vostok 1grp vs the 2-3 group which has been out for some time now?

How does the 2 group stand In regards to other options such as lr24 and none lever options?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Holonomic said:


> 1. So, other than the group size and choice of case is there other differences in the vostok 1grp vs the 2-3 group which has been out for some time now?
> 
> 2. How does the 2 group stand In regards to other options such as lr24 and none lever options?


 1. Differences from Vostok 2 group. Ideally you should read the thread on coffeetime



Internal tank (with low water detection) or mains fed


internal gear pump


settable preinfusion pressure from 1 to 4.0 bar


Less cup to drip tray height.


2.3 litre service boiler vs 7 or 10 litres...0.8 litre brew boiler vs 3 litres.


2. Don't know, don't care, have no interest in commercial multi group machines.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Thank you Dave, just looked up the coffee time thread, lots more information there!

Very close to placing my order!


----------



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Can someone explain what difference being able to adjust preinfusion pressure has and why it's better for lighter roasts?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Nopapercup said:


> Can someone explain what difference being able to adjust preinfusion pressure has and why it's better for lighter roasts?


 I can't answer that question (preinfusion pressure), but I can say what I am interested in from the Vostok..

1. The LSM group - by all accounts great, double spring so commercial grade pressure. Add to this the group manometer - this should allow for a degree of control of the pressure during extraction.

2. Dual boiler with triple PID - cartridges for fast warmup time and group stability. High temperature for steam, while potentially reducing temperature for brew slightly (or vice versa)- this isn't possible with a single boiler which has a single PID (or pstat for londinium), that sets the boiler temperature which then (because directly connected) heats up the group. so whilst a single boiler can be Amazing I would like a tiny bit more flexibility, and as much thermal consistency as possible.

3. Loads of little bits like; decent group to drip tray height to allow for scales. Solid build with as much SS as possible. Easy/simple maintenance with standard/common parts. Attention to detail like tubes on the opv rather than vent inside machine. Energy efficiency - boiler insulation, built in timer, ability to be on but service boiler off until needed.

Personally I want consistency, and small amount of tweaking/variability (decent is way too much for me), but I also want good steam as we drink plenty of milk based drinks. I want to tweak temperature and pressure and probably preinfusion a bit depending on e.g. bean/roast, and then enjoy the lever and excellent coffee for a long time. Mostly once I have had my time learning the machine I (suspect like most people) will only very rarely change settings as they will be as I want them (that's my theory/hope anyway)..


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nopapercup said:


> Can someone explain what difference being able to adjust preinfusion pressure has and why it's better for lighter roasts?


 Am probably wrong, but......lighter roasts are ground finer.....finer particles when tamped off greater resistance for the water particles, so a higher degree of pre infusion pressure helps to saturate the puck......but the benefit is only seen to a certain point. Also Lighter roasts need higher temps to extract


----------



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Am probably wrong, but......lighter roasts are ground finer.....finer particles when tamped off greater resistance for the water particles, so a higher degree of pre infusion pressure helps to saturate the puck......but the benefit is only seen to a certain point. Also Lighter roasts need higher temps to extract


 Thanks @dfk41. I'm a bit of a simpleton with my coffee making as a Pavoni user so I'm probably not understanding the technology. I would have thought higher preinfusion pressure would disturb the puck and increase channeling. I know a lot of pavoni users, myself included are playing around with filter paper on top of the puck to try and reduce this.

Wouldn't a longer preinfusion on lighter roasts also work to saturate the puck instead of higher pressure preinfusion? The obvious example that is often mentioned is the L1 and LR. What makes the LR better for lighter roasts then the older L1?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

The 'R' denotes rotary pump and controls PI on the Londinium giving more choice of setting up to 6 bars. Hitting the puck with six bars isn't, IMO, pre-infusing - it's extraction. There's plenty of info out there on pulling shots at 6 bars. Reiss says using higher PI on the Londinium R raises extraction temp but I'm not aware Reiss has given any figures as to what temp differences there are at different PI settings.

One of the benefits of a PI stage in extraction is that it allows the puck to saturate and expand before being hit with full extraction pressure be it 9-10 bars.


----------



## RobW (Dec 24, 2017)

This video gives some good insight into the lever style extraction process and the way pressure preinfusion works:


----------



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Thanks guys, interesting stuff.

How many machines are capable of doing what they said in the above video of the Londinium PI with a hard blast and then down to 3 bar PI besides Londinium and Decent? Is this something the Vesuvius can do or are there other PI profiles that are also well suited to lighter roasts?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nopapercup said:


> Thanks guys, interesting stuff.
> 
> How many machines are capable of doing what they said in the above video of the Londinium PI with a hard blast and then down to 3 bar PI besides Londinium and Decent? Is this something the Vesuvius can do or are there other PI profiles that are also well suited to lighter roasts?


 The V-Vostok is quite capable of filling the group fast and then dropping down to the preset pressure with it's gear pump. e.g. you can preset the pressure to 2.5 or 3 bar and as soon as the lever chamber is full it will drop to 3 bar for the preinfusion. no trouble at all.

It has the added advantage over other lever machines in that the group it PID temperature controlled as is the separate brew boiler. Steam boiler can be off or on as it's temperature has no influence on the shot temperature at all.

Oh an unlike single spring lever, the puck down't get 7.5 bar dropping to 4/5 bar very quickly...not to say you couldn't remove a spring from the V-Vostock if you really wanted to...or better still retard/advance the lever and watch the gauge for whatever pressures you want.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Nopapercup said:


> How many machines are capable of doing what they said in the above video of the Londinium PI with a hard blast and then down to 3 bar PI besides Londinium and Decent? Is this something the Vesuvius can do or are there other PI profiles that are also well suited to lighter roasts?


 Have a look at the video below - you have probably already seen it. Am guessing Frans has got the PI set pretty high - at or around 6 bars given the pumps on both machines are kicking in repeatedly during pre-infusion. Don't think Frans is adjusting PI pressure during either shots. At lower PI setting, i.e. 3 bar, the pump does not kick in and out during pre-infusion. In the Decent video, guy makes reference, I think, to hitting the puck at 6 bar and then dropping it to 3 bar - this is during pre-infusion. I guess this is possible via using the app but I would wonder how accurate it is as there is no feedback (manometer) to let you know exactly what pressure is occurring at what stage during the extraction.

The Vostok looks as if it takes a different approach which won't be clear until the machines are out there in the hands of those who have experience of Londiniums. The double spring in the San Marco group used in the V will provide a different profile to the single spring on the Londinium which peaks at 8.5 bar when the lever is released. Am guessing that the the pressure declines quite rapidly during the extraction.

As DaveC has demonstrated, it's possible and appears quite easy to retard the spring induced pressure on the V by holding back the lever. The key is that you get feedback in real time thanks to the inclusion of the group head manometer.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

and as we all know, you cannot argue with hard data.......takes guessing and woffle right out of the picture. Can a kindly L1 owner not fit a manometer to their machine or is there something stopping that from happening?


----------



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> The V-Vostok is quite capable of filling the group fast and then dropping down to the preset pressure with it's gear pump. e.g. you can preset the pressure to 2.5 or 3 bar and as soon as the lever chamber is full it will drop to 3 bar for the preinfusion. no trouble at all.
> 
> It has the added advantage over other lever machines in that the group it PID temperature controlled as is the separate brew boiler. Steam boiler can be off or on as it's temperature has no influence on the shot temperature at all.
> 
> Oh an unlike single spring lever, the puck down't get 7.5 bar dropping to 4/5 bar very quickly...not to say you couldn't remove a spring from the V-Vostock if you really wanted to...or better still retard/advance the lever and watch the gauge for whatever pressures you want.


 Thanks Dave, the Vostock sounds like it will be a really interesting machine. Can't wait to see the finished product and if they are going to keep making and selling them.

In theory shouldn't the Vesuvius be able to replicate what the Vostock or Londinium are doing?


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

I wonder how long it would take before someone introduces the term "V League" as a synonym for advanced coffee gear.


----------



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

> 2 hours ago, The Systemic Kid said:
> 
> Have a look at the video below - you have probably already seen it. Am guessing Frans has got the PI set pretty high - at or around 6 bars given the pumps on both machines are kicking in repeatedly during pre-infusion. Don't think Frans is adjusting PI pressure during either shots. At lower PI setting, i.e. 3 bar, the pump does not kick in and out during pre-infusion. In the Decent video, guy makes reference, I think, to hitting the puck at 6 bar and then dropping it to 3 bar - this is during pre-infusion. I guess this is possible via using the app but I would wonder how accurate it is as there is no feedback (manometer) to let you know exactly what pressure is occurring at what stage during the extraction.
> 
> ...


 I never realised how loud they are. If you own one in a terraced house or flat, you're not going to be popular with the neighbours.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Nopapercup said:


> Thanks Dave, the Vostock sounds like it will be a really interesting machine. Can't wait to see the finished product and if they are going to keep making and selling them.
> 
> In theory shouldn't the Vesuvius be able to replicate what the Vostock or Londinium are doing?


 I can share my experience. The profile on Vesuvius is very similar to what @DavecUK has shown in his Vostok's video. And I believe this was deliberately done. The result is lots of sweet shots.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Nopapercup said:


> I never realised how loud they are. If you own one in a terraced house or flat, you're not going to be popular with the neighbours.


 they aren't noisy - really.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nopapercup said:


> Thanks Dave, the Vostock sounds like it will be a really interesting machine. Can't wait to see the finished product and if they are going to keep making and selling them.
> 
> In theory shouldn't the Vesuvius be able to replicate what the Vostock or Londinium are doing?


 The Vesuvius can replicate it to a certain extent. The V-Vostock was designed to be better and address some of the issues with prosumer single spring levers.

The LSM group in the V-Vostock costs about 40% more, temperature is closely maintained, even during preinfusion. Plus the pressure profile gets a much better extraction than single spring machines that only develop a max of about 7.5 bar against coffee. Watch how the pressure drops on a V-Vostock, and imagine what a machine that peaks at 7.5 bar against coffee is doing for most of the shot.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)




----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I was about to get an Elizabeth as my first proper semi-auto machine, but just happened to discover this thread, and am very interested in this upcoming machine which seems to hit many of my hopes (simple and durable machine which will be easier to maintain than my 15 year old superauto, with quick warm-up time, mixing proven technologies and some 'cutting edge features' such as 'manual profiling'). A bit over my initial budget, but it's very tempting and I like to see manufacturers working hand-in-hand with enthusiasts!

Subscribed!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Eiffel The V-Vostok is definitely something new in the lever world, not just a rehash of existing technologies. Still based around the fabulous LSM lever group, but with the changes needed on lever machines to give fast warm up, temperature stability and multiple boilers allowing independence of steam pressure...plus the group pressure gauge built in and more.

It marries the modern with the tried and tested, so of course there are on/off timers, PID settings, touchscreen on/off etc..whilst still being set and forget.

I have had shots from many machines, including levers and even with the Alpha1 test bed I have, it produces some of the best tasting shots I've ever had.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> @Eiffel The V-Vostok is definitely something new in the lever world, not just a rehash of existing technologies. Still based around the fabulous LSM lever group, but with the changes needed on lever machines to give fast warm up, temperature stability and multiple boilers allowing independence of steam pressure...plus the group pressure gauge built in and more.
> 
> It marries the modern with the tried and tested, so of course there are on/off timers, PID settings, touchscreen on/off etc..whilst still being set and forget.
> 
> I have had shots from many machines, including levers and even with the Alpha1 test bed I have, it produces some of the best tasting shots I've ever had.


 OK - after reading the full thread on here and now the other forum you linked to I am so very close to sending the deposit for a Vostok, I have narrowed my choice to two machines.. opposite ends of the spectrum 

My new machine will either be one of these or a Decent... leaning more towards the V as it offers the (imo) better build quality/longevity - I do not intend to play around with profiles too much if I was own a decent, just like the idea of being able to use it for good consistent shots.. .something which you say the V has no issues with


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Thanks @DavecUK for ACS contact details. I heard from Paolo.

The first batch is fully booked. The second is about a half booked. The price is about €2650 (including shipping I believe) plus an import duty of around €120/€140.

Does it need to be plumbed or does it have a choice of an internal water tank to fill water for Osmio Zero please ?

Thanks


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Thanks @DavecUK for ACS contact details. I heard from Paolo.
> 
> The first batch is fully booked. The second is about a half booked. The price is about €2650 (including shipping I believe) plus an import duty of around €120/€140.
> 
> ...


 I believe that they are all with internal tanks matey


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

It has an internal tank, which can be accessed from the side. There is a plumbed connection that fills the internal tank. Very similar to the Vesuvius.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Holonomic said:


> OK - after reading the full thread on here and now the other forum you linked to I am so very close to sending the deposit for a Vostok, I have narrowed my choice to two machines.. opposite ends of the spectrum
> 
> My new machine will either be one of these or a Decent... leaning more towards the V as it offers the (imo) better build quality/longevity - I do not intend to play around with profiles too much if I was own a decent, just like the idea of being able to use it for good consistent shots.. .something which you say the V has no issues with


 Just to add to this, what grinder would be considered a worthwhile companion to the vostok. Would a niche be "ok" or would a flat burr monolith style grinder be required?


----------



## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

Holonomic said:


> Just to add to this, what grinder would be considered a worthwhile companion to the vostok. Would a niche be "ok" or would a flat burr monolith style grinder be required?


Why wouldn't a Niche be enough? Just curious.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Holonomic I use a Niche with it and for the last 2 months been using a Solo. Both work OK for me, had a fabulous Burundi Mpanga shot this morning using the Solo...so sweet. I made it doing a video to show a two handed pull for someone who asked.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> @Holonomic I use a Niche with it and for the last 2 months been using a Solo. Both work OK for me, had a fabulous Burundi Mpanga shot this morning using the Solo...so sweet. I made it doing a video to show a two handed pull for someone who asked.


 Great! Thank you Dave (again)

I do think I shall be getting one of these over the decent just because i think this machine will still be relevant in 5 years where as the decent (imo) will have cheaper and possibly better revivals or versions (ok, maybe not cheaper as the price point has been set).

I think machines using the tech in the decent may well be the future, but I shall think I would rather wait for that tech to be transplanted into a more "traditional" looking machine.

I do feel a little uneasy about buying a machine I have little to no reviews a out let a lone not even seen... but I do trust in what you have said and looks to be a winning formula!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Great! Thank you Dave (again)
> 
> I do think I shall be getting one of these over the decent just because i think this machine will still be relevant in 5 years where as the decent (imo) will have cheaper and possibly better revivals or versions (ok, maybe not cheaper as the price point has been set).
> 
> ...


 I use a niche and very happy.

Price of the decent = no chance for me. I'm sure it's great, but I don't have time or budget to do all the experimenting. Also I can't help thinking that in the end a lot of the settings effectively end up emulating a lever. Not knocking a decent at all - would love to have had one and played around with it. Like with the monolith grinder - scheduled for after the lottery win and second and third homes I'll have to fill.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Holonomic said:


> Great! Thank you Dave (again)
> 
> I do feel a little uneasy about buying a machine I have little to no reviews a out let a lone not even seen... but I do trust in what you have said and looks to be a winning formula!


 I can completley understand. The Alpha1 test bed I have is a 6 year old case (made differently now), no reinforcement and the standard reinforcement in a V case was even removed, no base plate, just fresh air under the machine...so it's much weaker than normal (so good job it's normally super strong). My group is god knows how many years old and leaks (it's an ex commercial group), steam and water wands used with chunks out of them, pump cable tied to steam boiler box stuck on front...it's a real lash up....BUT, it's the only machine I want to use now!

The production ones should be so much better, I am quite envious of people who will be getting them....so if you like what you saw...then you should be in for a treat.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I can completley understand. The Alpha1 test bed I have is a 6 year old case (made differently now), no reinforcement and the standard reinforcement in a V case was even removed, no base plate, just fresh air under the machine...so it's much weaker than normal (so good job it's normally super strong). My group is god knows how many years old and leaks (it's an ex commercial group), steam and water wands used with chunks out of them, pump cable tied to steam boiler box stuck on front...it's a real lash up....BUT, it's the only machine I want to use now!
> 
> The production ones should be so much better, I am quite envious of people who will be getting them....so if you like what you saw...then you should be in for a treat.


 Payment has been sent  shame I missed the first batch, but looking at the end of May for delivery.

Gives me time to look at a water source and tamper/distributer tools etc 

Edit: this means I need to part with my torr tamper


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

That's good news on the May delivery - I'm also in the second batch. Reading Paolo's post about parts made me assume the worst, especially given they are in lockdown again. I'm mostly looking forward to seeing updated production pics.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

danielpugh said:


> That's good news on the May delivery - I'm also in the second batch. Reading Paolo's post about parts made me assume the worst, especially given they are in lockdown again. I'm mostly looking forward to seeing updated production pics.


 The May delivery is probably on the optimistic side of things, was given that time frame in an email yesterday... time will tell! I think I missed the post regarding parts... any link to that?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> That's good news on the May delivery - I'm also in the second batch. Reading Paolo's post about parts made me assume the worst, especially given they are in lockdown again. I'm mostly looking forward to seeing updated production pics.


 Sounds like I've some catching up to do, I was out for a lot of today.....got back lots of posts here and I had some other very enjoyable, long overdue tasks to perform.

I didn't even know they were in lockdown again.


----------



## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Sounds like I've some catching up to do, I was out for a lot of today.....got back lots of posts here and I had some other very enjoyable, long overdue tasks to perform.
> I didn't even know they were in lockdown again.


I think it will be only during Easter.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Yes it's just 3 day lockdown, although sounds like Europe still up in the air till vaccine takes off there. Post about parts was under the latest pics (p24/coffeetime) - virus affects parts more than the people.

I'll go with May if that's what Paolo says. Generally lockdown and customs are the big delays recently (I've had a microphone on order since November in Holland, fibre hdmi cable took 2 months to arrive etc). Am going to stay positive.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I know getting parts for coffee machines is a problem for all the manufacturers out there. I suppose in some ways it's good because it's a country that really needs its businesses to recover.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Talking about grinders, will a baratza sette 270wi grind sufficiently well to get the best out of the V?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

rusty pie said:


> Talking about grinders, will a baratza sette 270wi grind sufficiently well to get the best out of the V?


 can't see why not. The issue with those grinders have never been the quality of the grind, but the fact they are loud and don't seem to be very reliable.


----------



## profesor_historia (Sep 1, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> can't see why not. The issue with those grinders have never been the quality of the grind, but the fact they are loud and don't seem to be very reliable.


Because they are made mostly of plastic.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I am sure we all know the VAT situation. I checked with Paolo re-the VAT, if I were to order this machine.

The €2650 doesn't seem to include the VAT. Both the VAT and import duty are definitely payable upon arrival on our shores on the invoiced amount.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee I really can't comment except to say, I paid the VAT+handling charge on the *declared* value of the Frankenstien Alpha test bed. It wasn't as much as I'd feared. but of course it has to be paid.

So even with the VAT you fear you will pay, it's still way cheaper than anything else with those capabilities and uses a group that costs 40% more than the Fiorenzato group. Of course as always, Caveat Emptor. You could simply wait and see what other people paid *by asking them via pm. *If you like the price order in the May, or perhaps by then June build. If the price doesn't change, then you will know exactly where you stand.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

For those interested, here is a link to an update on coffeetime

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s280.html#p6308


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> For those interested, here is a link to an update on coffeetime
> 
> https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s280.html#p6308


 @dfk41 thank you for this update!

@Like Medium Strong Coffee this was/is also a concern I had.. I have discussed this/researched it... not too concerned and as Dave has said, it is still a fair price for the machine even with the VAT.

I am so very excited for this to turn up, half tempted to retire my brewtus IV early and use a chemex or something while I wait for this to turn up


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> @dfk41 thank you for this update!
> 
> @Like Medium Strong Coffee this was/is also a concern I had.. I have discussed this/researched it... not too concerned and as Dave has said, it is still a fair price for the machine even with the VAT.
> 
> I am so very excited for this to turn up, half tempted to retire my brewtus IV early and use a chemex or something while I wait for this to turn up


 As someone who has been using a v60 for what seems like forever (about a month, and 2 months to go) - whilst it will make you appreciate good coffee when it arrives, it is a double edged sword. Not helped by my family giving me coffee subscriptions for my Birthday resulting in a surplus.

Not worried otherwise.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Could anyone confirm which baskets will ship with the vostok? I can see myself getting a VST 18g basket (even if the one included is more than useable) unless this is the one which is included?

Anyone have any thoughts on tempers?


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Links are on the other forum, basket is OK


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

I'm going IMS for basket (b662th32m) and screen (sm200im), possibly silicon group gasket.

Tampers are a bit harder - was looking at torr, but their site seems stuffed for all payment types.

IMS do a matching 54.4 which I have just found supplier for in the uk

Heavy tamper do a 15.5 from czech, IMS say 15.4 so sticking to that.

There is a custom tamper maker on etsy - alperwood that looks nice, good feedback. But pricey with shipping.

There are some other options like Pullman, but gets steep quick...


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Yup I cannot get to check out, I'm going to email them I've tried everything to go through checkout!! Make sure the UK have actual stock on the basket


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Jony said:


> Yup I cannot get to check out, I'm going to email them I've tried everything to go through checkout!! Make sure the UK have actual stock on the basket


 something not right for Torr - emailed twice, no response. Trustpilot on Torr toys is not good. The error is because they payment link is broken for both paypal and card. Feels like nobody there. Compare that to an email to IMS over the weekend, and a response at 8am this morning.

(That said, maybe just a temporary covid thing)


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I bought one of these in black. Not expensive and will do until she arrives and I get used.

https://www.edesiaespress.com/53mm-coffee-espresso-tamper-choice-of-hardwood-handles-flat-stainless-steel-base/


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

danielpugh said:


> I'm going IMS for basket (b662th32m) and screen (sm200im), possibly silicon group gasket.
> 
> Tampers are a bit harder - was looking at torr, but their site seems stuffed for all payment types.
> 
> ...


 In case anyone finds it useful - apologies for duplication:

Generally LSM has some variance in basket size between 53 for a single and 54.5 for a double depening on manufacturer.
IMS has a recommended tamper size of 54/54.4. From reading through feedback on the Alex Leva accesories thread (Vostok uses the same group design in theory, but not cartridge heated). From recommendations on the same thread - deeper basket with a bit of a gap between the shower screen/circlip is recommended. There were several comments about the stock (Leva) screen flow being a little "ragged". Obviously all of above may be irrelevant, but i thought doesnt harm to plan in advance as some of this stuff has a bit of a lead time.

single basket - B662TH26M
double basket - B662TH32M
screen - sm200im (sm200nt for the posh nano version)
54.4 inox steel tamper base - BAAC54.4F

I emailed IMS who gave me a contact at the UK distributor and who in turn pointed me to:
Give it to the beans / [email protected] /Adrian

Tamper base is 14.70 + VAT (and postage), and will a few weeks on order from Italy. The handles all mention M10 in the description so i guess this is the thread size which i think is the same as a Motta (TBC - based on a google search).

Im also getting a handle, basket and shower screen at the same time as decent pricing/reduced total cost of postage.
Total cost of £55.49 + VAT + P&P

seems reasonable to me

in parallel - Paulo just posted more pics of the first test machine on coffeetime!


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Thank you all, great input!

However is there any reason for you both going IMS over VST?

I did have both with my DB machine and settled on the VST hence why I was considering one again over the IMS


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Thank you all, great input!
> 
> However is there any reason for you both going IMS over VST?
> 
> I did have both with my DB machine and settled on the VST hence why I was considering one again over the IMS


 No reason at all - i was led by the search for a tamper particularly.

I have the feeling there may not be a VST basket/screen for san marco, but very much could be wrong...


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

danielpugh said:


> No reason at all - i was led by the search for a tamper particularly.
> 
> I have the feeling there may not be a VST basket/screen for san marco, but very much could be wrong...


 Pretty sure VST don't do 54mm baskets


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Pretty sure VST don't do 54mm baskets


 Well that makes that choice fairly straightforward!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Holonomic said:


> Well that makes that choice fairly straightforward!


 For non stock baskets - IMS seems the logical choice.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

So, tamper.... has anyone ever used one of the these with a LSM?

https://www.wholelattelove.com/blogs/articles/leveling-with-the-jack-a-new-way-to-tamp

I feel like I will be getting some odd looks for suggesting it and is not the cheapest but thought I'd ask 

They do a 53mm and a 54.7mm version (they also do a palm tamp but can not find them in stock)


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Similar to the push tamper which has the same sizes. Also found the bravo tamper and distributor - again because of the link to the izzo Alex leva. Brazil seemed like a long journey for a tamper.

https://www.home-barista.com/knockbox/bravo-tamper-and-distributor-t66682.html

Also useful was...

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/izzo-alex-leva-dosing-baskets-accessories-and-springs-t65129.html


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Dave is using stock baskets. I maybe wrong but I do not think he is a big fan of these 'fancy' baskets......


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Dave is using stock baskets. I maybe wrong but I do not think he is a big fan of these 'fancy' baskets......


 Well only cos I'm a tightwad and the standard baskets seem good enough.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Well only cos I'm a tightwad and the standard baskets seem good enough.


 that aside, I class baskets in the 'coffee bollocks' arena. Yes, on paper they must make a difference, but in reality, how many folk's tastebuds can tell?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Well only cos I'm a tightwad and the standard baskets seem good enough.


 With you there - more about the cheap tamper base for me, but then I got overexcited...

Saw this post re. Leva and it's OEM screen - obviously could be different now, but for £10 I have a spare screen... (The basket was £10 as well - most expensive part was the handle for the tamper at £26)..

https://www.home-barista.com/repairs/izzo-alex-leva-circlip-replacement-issues-t42755.html


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh Paolo uses the stainless clips, but they are really brittle and easily broken


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh Paolo uses the stainless clips, but they are really brittle and easily broken


 That's useful to know. Finding some spares is on my list. Not managed to find yet, although looks like...TBC, but have added the first on the list to my order so I hopefully have a backup.

https://www.lfspareparts724.com/en/product/circlip_j48--1250116

Or

https://espresso-solutions.co.uk/s-steel-snap-ring-j48/


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Jony said:


> Yup I cannot get to check out, I'm going to email them I've tried everything to go through checkout!! Make sure the UK have actual stock on the basket


 just got an email from Torr Toys - Jens Rufenach <[email protected]> saying they are having problems with their pay gateway and to email him if wanting a tamper. Too late for me as have ordered elsewhere, but thought i would pass on (it went to my junk email yesterday afternoon).


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Cheers 👍


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

danielpugh said:


> just got an email from Torr Toys - Jens Rufenach <[email protected]> saying they are having problems with their pay gateway and to email him if wanting a tamper. Too late for me as have ordered elsewhere, but thought i would pass on (it went to my junk email yesterday afternoon).


 Thanks for this, I was looking to buy from them (although not decided on a torr tamper over "the jack"... thinking a traditional tamper would be best here).

Will drop them an email once I have made my mind up 

Edit: while on the topic of accessories, I am thinking of plumbing my machine in... I was looking at getting a osmio zero but was wondering if a) they do an online/under the counter version and b) are there any better options from other brands? I have always used bottled water for my current machine but as I intend to use the vostok daily I would rather have something more convenient in place. Anyone have any thoughts on an in line water filter, be it osmio or otherwise?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Holonomic said:


> .. I was looking at getting a osmio zero but was wondering if a) they do an online/under the counter version and b) are there any better options from other brands?


 They have a few choices and you may check it here. They had an offer for the forum members recently. You may check with them, if they still have any deals.

If Osmio, most of us will be using Osmio zero to put the last 1 L to 1.5 L to good use. Some prefer distilled, other filtered and bottled.

We have Osmio zero and will not hesitate to buy another one,'if the current unit were to stop working.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Thanks for this, I was looking to buy from them (although not decided on a torr tamper over "the jack"... thinking a traditional tamper would be best here).
> 
> Will drop them an email once I have made my mind up
> 
> Edit: while on the topic of accessories, I am thinking of plumbing my machine in... I was looking at getting a osmio zero but was wondering if a) they do an online/under the counter version and b) are there any better options from other brands? I have always used bottled water for my current machine but as I intend to use the vostok daily I would rather have something more convenient in place. Anyone have any thoughts on an in line water filter, be it osmio or otherwise?


 Coincidentally have been looking at this in general.

I have bwt bestmax. This is an ok solution. I recommend (assuming you are in the UK) using a postcode search at your waterboard site and from that you should be able to get your latest local water analysis report. Mine for example was Cornwall/south west water. For bestmax you use the settings in the manual to see the dial on the filter head (setting 1-3) based around the German d setting. I had to convert from mg/l to D.

Beware - you can get TDS analysers cheap. This is a measurement of solids dissolved in the water. This doesn't measure hardness/calcium/limescale. When filtered by bestmax this figure is unchanged. The bestmax causes a chemical reaction that softens the water leaving the same Quantity of dissolved solid. This stops limescale forming (great). However in the device/steam boiler you are vapourising liquid leaving any solid. Eventually this leaves a goo in the boiler that needs draining.

A better solution is osmosis whereby it passed through a membrane (sort of similar to goretex) resulting in pure water without solids (although some systems add back some minerals).

There osmio zero is not plumbed. The osmio fusion is plumbed and needs a waste outlet. In a perfect world it would have an outlet that you could plug into the espresso machine (my perfect solution), but unfortunately it doesn't.

Beyond that osmio produce under the counter solutions (h7, HT+ I think) that can be plumbed in and the output goes to the espresso machine input. This is what I would like, but requires space and some plumbing (I unfortunately don't have space apart from the counter top).

I messaged Mark from osmio who is on the forum who was quick to respond and very helpful.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Would it be right to think that I don't have to worry much about scale in my new Vostok if, after 2 and half years of use at my new home, my kettle does not show the slightest sign of scaling? We use water filtered by a simple fridge filter.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@rusty pie where do you live?


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @rusty pie where do you live?


 Brisbane, I've heard in general it's a hard water area but I'm in a brand new suburb and seems to me it's rather soft instead.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dunno, if the kettle doesn't ever scale up, I suppose that a good sign, but an espresso machines boiler can constantly reboil...perhaps get a water hardness report. Also see if it changes at different times of the year, or whether they can pipe water in from other areas.

Low levels of hardness that doesn't scale a kettle may still scale an espresso machine. I guess you will have to try it and see. If the level is medium, like the 100pmm you have on average, the fridge filter (if changed regularly), may do the job for you.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Dunno, if the kettle doesn't ever scale up, I suppose that a good sign, but an espresso machines boiler can constantly reboil...perhaps get a water hardness report. Also see if it changes at different times of the year, or whether they can pipe water in from other areas.
> 
> Low levels of hardness that doesn't scale a kettle may still scale an espresso machine. I guess you will have to try it and see. If the level is medium, like the 100pmm you have on average, the fridge filter (if changed regularly), may do the job for you.


 Ok thanks, I did a paper strip hardness test which came with a new clothes dryer a few months ago and I think it came out <150 ppm


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Our hardness report showed a mean of 18.29, and max of 23.2 over 18 readings. So very soft. TDs measured 88. I have bestmax premium. Never had scale at all here.

I lost one PID sensor with deposits (at 9 months), gummed up opv and goop in the steam boiler alost dead on 2 years into a brand new machine.

I am regularly unlucky with technology which skews my view (i.e. plan for the worst).. That said the results were more stressful (panicky at the thought of going without for a few days) than particularly difficult to deal with.

A method to drain the boiler every year or two and ability to replace parts with some PTFE will hopefully get me by. I am trying to squeeze osmosis system in though at some point for longer term peace of mind.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh it well illustrates the point about the other crap in water, that can cause problems.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> Ok thanks, I did a paper strip hardness test which came with a new clothes dryer a few months ago and I think it came out <150 ppm


 Please get a GH/KH drop kit, test them on 20ml water each, which will require more drops. But, you can divide the outcome by 4 to get the standardised 5 ml test results.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Up until my retirement 2 years ago, |I never kept a machine long enough to worry about scale but thins are different now. I ws running a Londinium and they are an absolute pain in there arse to descale as you have to strip it down and take the boiler out (possible design flaw IMHO). SO, I decided to regulate the water going in. I could not br arsed with buying bottled water so after research, I plumped for an Osmio Zero desktop filter system. Yes, it is an upfront expense but the running costs are good and it eliminates the need to pay someone to come in and descale.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Up until my retirement 2 years ago, |I never kept a machine long enough to worry about scale but thins are different now. I ws running a Londinium and they are an absolute pain in there arse to descale as you have to strip it down and take the boiler out (possible design flaw IMHO). SO, I decided to regulate the water going in. I could not br arsed with buying bottled water so after research, I plumped for an Osmio Zero desktop filter system. Yes, it is an upfront expense but the running costs are good and it eliminates the need to pay someone to come in and descale.


 Completely agree - a plus point for the Vostok for me was the smaller boiler, both for faster warmup and efficiency as well as reduced descaling. I'm 90% sold on an osmio fusion. The only thing holding me back is waiting for a waste pipe to be put in, cashflow (i.e. Vostok) and desire to remain plumbed in somehow for raw laziness reasons.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

danielpugh said:


> Completely agree - a plus point for the Vostok for me was the smaller boiler, both for faster warmup and efficiency as well as reduced descaling. I'm 90% sold on an osmio fusion. The only thing holding me back is waiting for a waste pipe to be put in, cashflow (i.e. Vostok) and desire to remain plumbed in somehow for raw laziness reasons.


 Again, we are in the same boat.... I am currently deciding between the zero/fusion or going for their HT+ option.

Awaiting another round of discounts though as cash flow (vostok )


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> So variable preinfusion should be on the cards and perhaps even profiled preinfusion


 How do these work Dave @DavecUK? Would it be like Bianca - Programmed variable pre-infusion and an option to add a paddle please ? Thx


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Again, we are in the same boat.... I am currently deciding between the zero/fusion or going for their HT+ option.
> 
> Awaiting another round of discounts though as cash flow (vostok )


 Snap! Waste pipe is my first problem - no chance of getting to the main pipe due to room layout, so got to drill a hole through external wall, and then route the output somewhere. Once that's done then I think the only option is the osmio fusion - I just wish it could daisy-chain to an espresso machine. H7 would be better, but overkill and no space to put it. Current short term solution is to try to think about other things!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> How do these work Dave @DavecUK? Would it be like Bianca - Programmed variable pre-infusion and an option to add a paddle please ? Thx


 That objective was dropped...found to be unnecessary and actually for a reason I forget now...tricky to implement....although I am sure someone brighter than me will find a way.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> That objective was dropped...found to be unnecessary and actually for a reason I forget now...tricky to implement....although I am sure someone brighter than me will find a way.


 Ideal solution (I think) for pre-infusion would be adjustment on the display. Presumably that would require a different pressurestat or variable voltage on the motor (totally guessing here). More difficult would be that it would also require software update. Software update is easy via USB key. However sounds like re-programming the gicar is difficult/expensive bit (presumably 3rd party cost?).

So I guess that moves things to physical adjustment, which is where we are now. Unsure if there is a hole in the case to put a screwdriver in to adjust the pressurestat. The location looks like it presents itself well for this (top/middle). No idea if this requires taking the top/cover off (?). Not too worried either way personally, as mostly I think pre-infusion pressure is mainly useful for lighter roasts (which is rare for me). More important (for me) is the ability to change brew temperature via PID(s) and pressure (holding back the lever as it rises while using the group manometer as a visual guide).


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> That objective was dropped...found to be unnecessary and actually for a reason I forget now...tricky to implement....although I am sure someone brighter than me will find a way.


 The lever achieves the same objectives, does it not ? The paddles in fact try to mimic what the lever does.

As an inexperienced, I wonder what if want a longer pre-infusion, a form of longer steep - say 30 secs or a couple of mins, on the V? May be this is a stupid doubt! 😀


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The lever achieves the same objectives, does it not ? The paddles in fact try to mimic what the lever does.
> 
> As an inexperienced, I wonder what if want a longer pre-infusion, a form of longer steep - say 30 secs or a couple of mins, on the V? May be this is a stupid doubt! 😀


 No, it's not, very long preinfusions I have found can cause bitterness...If you can actually do one that long, when you release the lever, it's liable to not flow correctly.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The lever achieves the same objectives, does it not ? The paddles in fact try to mimic what the lever does.
> 
> As an inexperienced, I wonder what if want a longer pre-infusion, a form of longer steep - say 30 secs or a couple of mins, on the V? May be this is a stupid doubt! 😀


 Yes you are right (lever/pressure). I think what's being referred to is adjustable pre-infusion pressure (like on the londinium (s)).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh I actually don't use the screws on my top cover, it's under the grid and more than heavy enough to stay in place on its own. On the V-Vostok the pressurstat for preinfusion pressure will be easily adjustable as it's right at the top. If you do what I do, it will be easy to adjust. I actually anticipate people setting it at between 2 and 3 bar and leaving it there. no need to keep changing it.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh I actually don't use the screws on my top cover, it's under the grid and more than heavy enough to stay in place on its own. On the V-Vostok the pressurstat for preinfusion pressure will be easily adjustable as it's right at the top. If you do what I do, it will be easy to adjust. I actually anticipate people setting it at between 2 and 3 bar and leaving it there. no need to keep changing it.


 Yep, I don't think it's going to be needed by me. More of a nice to know it's there thing. I'd personally be more interested in eco mode like on the Vesuvius.

Is the gicar programming thing possible/allowed on the board that is used, or restricted. I'm sure I saw a gicar GUI based programming software thing somewhere on a forum. I'm assuming it's locked down, maybe even to gicar only?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> No, it's not, very long preinfusions I have found can cause bitterness...If you can actually do one that long, when you release the lever, it's liable to not flow correctly.


 Light roasts ? How do you deal with them? This is something I would be very keen to try on the V.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Light roasts ? How do you deal with them? This is something I would be very keen to try on the V.


 Get the temp right...critical, preinfuse em for a while until well soaked (and you see a few drops)...then let the magic of the LSM group, and sufficient pressure do the rest. if you think theres too much just watch the gauge and retard the lever a little, it's easy to hold to whatever pressure you want.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> Yep, I don't think it's going to be needed by me. More of a nice to know it's there thing. I'd personally be more interested in eco mode like on the Vesuvius.
> 
> Is the gicar programming thing possible/allowed on the board that is used, or restricted. I'm sure I saw a gicar GUI based programming software thing somewhere on a forum. I'm assuming it's locked down, maybe even to gicar only?


 You can simply switch the steam boiler off...and if you want the brew boiler...as that will warm up in literally a minute or so. or just turn it off and it's ready again in 15m

The board can be flashed, but writing the code isn't easy and Gicar probably won't tell you how. It is *very* expensive to get Gicar to do programming work!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Get the temp right...critical,


 If, normally, it is 93-94 deg C, does it mean the lighter roasts would require a couple of deg higher ?

Would grinding a little finer than medium or medium-dark help?



DavecUK said:


> retard the lever a little, it's easy to hold to whatever pressure you want.


 Yeah, I saw one of the videos, which you did. Thx


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> The board can be flashed, but writing the code isn't easy and Gicar probably won't tell you how. It is *very* expensive to get Gicar to do programming work!


 not sure, if cost-benefit would justify as well.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee As regards temp, I can't measure it accurately, so I don't really know exactly what it is...but the technique would be to raise it in 0.5C increments until you get a temp you like.

As far as optimisation, you can bump the brew boiler temp up/down a tad to come close to the group temp, especially if you see some thermal drift (up/down) when the group first fills. This gives the group cartridges more chance to ensure the group stays thermally stable during preinfusion.

Without group cartridges a typical HX style lever group can drop 2 or 3C during preinfusion (or more if you preinfuse for a longish time) and a further 4C during the shot, perhaps ending up 7C cooler. The V-Vostok system prevents this large thermal drift


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> If, normally, it is 93-94 deg C, does it mean the lighter roasts would require a couple of deg higher ?
> 
> Yeah, I saw one of the videos, which you did. Thx


 Higher temp I believe.

Re. Programming - absolutely not worth it unless it's possible for mere mortals. The software I saw looked like other GUI/visual programming tools I've seen with flow-chart and drag and drop. Sounds like access to that is restricted, or maybe for a completely different system.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh I actually don't use the screws on my top cover, it's under the grid and more than heavy enough to stay in place on its own. On the V-Vostok the pressurstat for preinfusion pressure will be easily adjustable as it's right at the top. If you do what I do, it will be easy to adjust. I actually anticipate people setting it at between 2 and 3 bar and leaving it there. no need to keep changing it.


 @DavecUK Hi Dave, I must have missed something but I was left with the impression that the Vostok would sport 3 PIDs (brew boiler, steam/service boiler and the brew group cartridge). The pre-infusion pressure is to be delivered via a gear pump with its own pressure sensor. Where is the pressurestat in all this? Is this the same pressurestat that all HX machines have?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

John Yossarian said:


> Is this the same pressurestat that all HX machines have?


 Presumably the pressurestat referred to here tells the pump when to stop as it reaches the target pressure. It's not a steam pstat (Sirai, as an example) used in HX machines as far as I know.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Presumably the pressurestat referred to here tells the pump when to stop as it reaches the target pressure. It's not a steam pstat (Sirai, as an example) used in HX machines as far as I know.


 Thanks. This is why I mentioned the pressure sensor, which is in the Vesuvius. I guess it should be similar (if not the same). It is just the association whenever pressurestat is mentioned 🙂


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

John Yossarian said:


> Thanks. This is why I mentioned the pressure sensor, which is in the Vesuvius. I guess it should be similar (if not the same). It is just the association whenever pressurestat is mentioned 🙂


 Yeah. After I typed I re-read the post. Dave can confirm, but I think he means that the pstat controller knob/screw is what determines the pressure sensor's sensitivity.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yeah. After I typed I re-read the post. Dave can confirm, but I think he means that the pstat controller knob/screw is what determines the pressure sensor's sensitivity.


 Yes - see this link where mentioned. On the latest pics from Paolo you can see the temporary one (Mater XP110) on the rear view (last pic)/left side next to the wires and metal plate that mounts the gicar. It's deliberately high to make it easy to access/adjust.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s290.html


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Presumably the pressurestat referred to here tells the pump when to stop as it reaches the target pressure. It's not a steam pstat (Sirai, as an example) used in HX machines as far as I know.


 Exactly, it's one that runs from 1 to 6 bar, so can be set within the full range of the pump.

Being mechanical and on the cold side means simplicity and reliability, especially as it's only switching a very low wattage load directly.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Exactly, it's one that runs from 1 to 6 bar, so can be set within the full range of the pump.
> 
> Being mechanical and on the cold side means simplicity and reliability, especially as it's only switching a very low wattage load directly.


 If I got it right, the pressurestat will switch off the pump the instance the pre-infusion pressure is reached. I was thinking that the pump was going to keep going for the duration of the pre-infusion. This really would be an elegant (and cheap) solution.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

How do you get on the waiting list? (Not for me - yet but of interest to others, I'm sure.)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob666 said:


> How do you get on the waiting list? (Not for me - yet but of interest to others, I'm sure.)


 I dunno, one of those on it will no doubt chime in...


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I dunno, one of those on it will no doubt chime in...


 For the machine? Email Paolo - [email protected]

Let him know you want to pre-order the Vesuvius lever. Provide details (address etc), ask any questions, and pay deposit.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just to divulge from all this technical talk, I have been without a machine since March 12th. In that time I have had one cappuccino! I have passed Costa etc numerous times and though, shall I? SO now that the first batch of machines are hopefully but a few short weeks away I am so looking forward to receiving mine! Will the first shot from it be a god shot or a case of bad memmory!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Just to divulge from all this technical talk, I have been without a machine since March 12th. In that time I have had one cappuccino! I have passed Costa etc numerous times and though, shall I? SO now that the first batch of machines are hopefully but a few short weeks away I am so looking forward to receiving mine! Will the first shot from it be a god shot or a case of bad memmory!


 I'm jealous. 👍


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm jealous. 👍


 And me


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUK If you can produce stellar shots from the Frankenstein then I have high hopes of emulating you!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> As an inexperienced, I wonder what if want a longer pre-infusion, a form of longer steep - say 30 secs or a couple of mins, on the V? May be this is a stupid doubt! 😀


 Debate around long pre-infusions seems to emanate from Londinium. Newer Londinium models have rotary pumps which allows variable pre-infusion pressure up to six bar if needed although Reiss has said pre-infusion pressure above 4 bar doesn't add anything. Owners can extend pre-infusion time without stalling the thermosiphon. This is Londinium's solution to making the machine tunable for lighter roasts.

That does not mean this is the only way for a lever machine to get the best out of a lighter roasts. The LSM lever pressure profile is very different to that of a Londinium and may well not need either a long pre-infusion or a higher pressure during pre-infusion to optimise for lighter roasts. There will be a lot of discussion around this once the Vostok gets field testing in the hands of new owners. For me, the key element in the V's design is the inclusion of a dedicated brew boiler whose temperature can be adjusted to the user's preference - something that cannot be achieved in a single boiler machine. Plus the inclusion of group heater cartridges to ensure the group's temperature is optimally controlled.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Plus the inclusion of group heater cartridges to ensure the group's temperature is optimally controlled.


 And the heating elements keep the group hot and at the right temp during [a long] extraction, unlike the L which will lose heat to the environment and not receive it, as the piston will effectively isolate the group from the boiler.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Looking forward to pick some of the best coffee minds here soon !


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> And the heating elements keep the group hot and at the right temp during [a long] extraction, unlike the L which will lose heat to the environment and not receive it, as the piston will effectively isolate the group from the boiler.


 In fairness, we can only speak about the V-Vostok which *we know will keep a stable temp during a long extraction/preinfusion*, simply because the group is actively and independently heated with PID control of temperature. If the Vostok was a dual boiler, then for sure it would be better as the main brew boiler wouldn't cool enough for the thermosyphon to stop, but the group would still experience some cooling. *The active heating and PID control of the group makes all the difference.*

If it was a different design and not a dual boiler e.g. HX etc.. then the HX part would refill with water and take a while to get going again and in the meantime anything in the lever group chamber would be cooling.

The video below shows typically what happens in a lever extraction and this is common to all single boiler lever machines without an actively heated and PID controlled group. The preinfusion is pretty short on this video..a few seconds really.






Alberto even tried the V-Vostock lever (outside of course) and I think was surprised at the amount of force required vs a single spring machine.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Just to divulge from all this technical talk, I have been without a machine since March 12th. In that time I have had one cappuccino! I have passed Costa etc numerous times and though, shall I? SO now that the first batch of machines are hopefully but a few short weeks away I am so looking forward to receiving mine! Will the first shot from it be a god shot or a case of bad memmory!


 March 18th for me - I'm impressed. I had my first onsite meeting last Thursday since last March. My mind basically blanked the entire thing as they had a decent coffee waiting. I'm second batch, so suspect it'll be May before my time comes. Looking forward to seeing some video of the first production machine in action soon.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

danielpugh said:


> March 18th for me - I'm impressed. I had my first onsite meeting last Thursday since last March. My mind basically blanked the entire thing as they had a decent coffee waiting. I'm second batch, so suspect it'll be May before my time comes. Looking forward to seeing some video of the first production machine in action soon.


 I've been without a machine from end of Jan !!!

Had just a few takeaway espresso's during this time, and looking forward for the 1st batch delivery !!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

> 3 hours ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> In fairness, we can only speak about the V-Vostok which *we know will keep a stable temp during a long extraction/preinfusion*, simply because the group is actively and independently heated with PID control of temperature. If the Vostok was a dual boiler, then for sure it would be better as the main brew boiler wouldn't cool enough for the thermosyphon to stop, but the group would still experience some cooling. *The active heating and PID control of the group makes all the difference.*
> 
> ...


 Almost 25-30 Deg F drop in temperature from the peak temp of c~200 deg F! Isn't it a lot please ?

Does it mean other single levers like Pavoni will lose more ?

Thanks!


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

> 59 minutes ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> In fairness, we can only speak about the V-Vostok which *we know will keep a stable temp during a long extraction/preinfusion*, simply because the group is actively and independently heated with PID control of temperature. If the Vostok was a dual boiler, then for sure it would be better as the main brew boiler wouldn't cool enough for the thermosyphon to stop, but the group would still experience some cooling. *The active heating and PID control of the group makes all the difference.*
> 
> ...


 Isn't one of the reasons given for the claimed superiority of spring lever shots that there is a decreasing temperature profile (as well as a decreasing pressure profile) during the extraction?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Almost 25-30 Deg F drop in temperature from the peak temp of c~200 deg F! Isn't it a lot please ?
> 
> Does it mean other single levers like Pavoni will lose more ?
> 
> Thanks!


 Ah, I think your seeing the entire drop in temp. The key part is the drop that happens during the part of the shot you want to keep which is 10 or 12F depending on shot volume.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mathof said:


> Isn't one of the reasons given for the claimed superiority of spring lever shots that there is a decreasing temperature profile (as well as a decreasing pressure profile) during the extraction?


 Trouble is that's difficult to define or repeat within the same lever or different types, dipper HX etc...is starting too hot the sweet spot, or starting lower and ending lower still. We're not even sure how much it drops on the different systems and certainly can't influence it very much. So you may be right, but people don't really know.

Is a decreasing pressure profile of 7 or 7.5 bar max decreasing rapidly to 5 bar or less for most of the shot the magic recipe...who knows?

*If it is, for which coffee, all, or some.*

The V-Vostock starts to give a little clarity and control, which has been largely absent.



Want it *hotter, make it hotter*, just bump up the PIDs (the group one does need more time to stabilise the group (2 or 3minutes), the brew boiler is ready pretty much when the new temp is reached.


Want a *declining temp profile*, just turn off the group cartridges, before you pull the shot.


Want a *declining profile from a higher start temp*, increase brew boiler temp (allow to stabilise) and switch cartridges off before shot.


Want a *high start fixed finish, bump up brew boiler, keep heater cartridges on* at desired finish level, pull the shot


Want to *control brew pressure*, you have a group gauge and can advance or retard lever.


At least you know what is happening and have some control, with a chance to find out what really is best. Having 2 boilers, 3 sources of heating and 3 PIDs gives a massive range of shot options if used creatively.

Going to make some toast now


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Ah, I think your seeing the entire drop in temp. The key part is the drop that happens during the part of the shot you want to keep which is 10 or 12F depending on shot volume.


 Got you. The 200.6 - the peak to 190+F for 43 g on the cup


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Trouble is that's difficult to define or repeat within the same lever or different types, dipper HX etc...is starting too hot the sweet spot, or starting lower and ending lower still. We're not even sure how much it drops on the different systems and certainly can't influence it very much. So you may be right, but people don't really know.
> 
> Is a decreasing pressure profile of 7 or 7.5 bar max decreasing rapidly to 5 bar or less for most of the shot the magic recipe...who knows?
> 
> ...


 The master has nicely summarised the V! 👍


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo advised me that they will receive the frame between the 15 May and the 20 May; hopefully, shipping may happen between the end of May and the mid-June.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Paolo advised me that they will receive the frame between the 15 May and the 20 May; hopefully, shipping may happen between the end of May and the mid-June.


 is that the second batch ETA?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> is that the second batch ETA?


 Sort of has to be really, first batch will be in weeks


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Sort of has to be really, first batch will be in weeks


 thought so - time to look into a temp/burner - not a bad thing really to have a backup


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> is that the second batch ETA?


 yes, ofc!



DavecUK said:


> Sort of has to be really, first batch will be in weeks


 Indeed !


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> thought so - time to look into a temp/burner - not a bad thing really to have a backup


 I am going to go with what ever comes. I may not mind grabbing a spare circlip, cheap tamper for the stock basket and may be a cheap dosing funnel.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I am going to go with what ever comes. I may not mind grabbing a spare circlip, cheap tamper for the stock basket and may be a cheap dosing funnel.


 Yep, still happy with decision. All of above sorted. Time for a cheapo machine to act as a backup. Curious what level of awfulness I can achieve with a super low budget...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> Yep, still happy with decision. All of above sorted. Time for a cheapo machine to act as a backup. Curious what level of awfulness I can achieve with a super low budget...


 Hoffmans YouTube site is your friend


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Hoffmans YouTube site is your friend


 i think i already saw that one - ive been eyeing up the gaggia classics in the classifieds, but they go a bit too quickly


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

danielpugh said:


> Yep, still happy with decision. All of above sorted. Time for a cheapo machine to act as a backup. Curious what level of awfulness I can achieve with a super low budget...


 V60 is king in my gaff👑😎


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Jony said:


> V60 is king in my gaff👑😎


 Yep have been - but with 1 month down and 3 to go i need a temporary diversion...


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> Yep have been - but with 1 month down and 3 to go i need a temporary diversion...


 We have been using Aeropress, Indian filter and Clever for months. Happy to stay this way until she arrives. 🙂


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Hoffmans YouTube site is your friend


 I have only recently been watching his videos, they are rather good!

On topic of 3xpids/temp control; I have no intention on playing too much but it would be interesting to see the effects on setting the group head either the same as the brew boiler in order to maintain a consistent brew temp, or at a lower temp vs the brew boiler to get a decline in brew temp (would ofcourse need mapping out - but once all parameters are gathered it could possibly be written down in an equation for use for future tech, in something like a decent - probably already available as it is simply thermal mass?).

In addition to that would setting the group head higher than the boiler increase the brew temp over time or are the heating elements not powerful enough to make a meaningful impact? (No idea on what these 3 would do to the brew, bit as Dave says may be dependent on the type of bean... or just personal taste!)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Holonomic said:


> In addition to that would setting the group head higher than the boiler increase the brew temp over time or are the heating elements not powerful enough to make a meaningful impact? (No idea on what these 3 would do to the brew, bit as Dave says may be dependent on the type of bean... or just personal taste!)


 It would indeed, the group has 200 ish watts available to heat approx 100 ml of water....to raise that 5 or 6C wouldn't take very long at all... Obviously the group has to be raised by that much as well, probably 2C over 30 sec, or 4C over the whole shot with preinfusion...approx, if my estimate is correct.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> It would indeed, the group has 200 ish watts available to heat approx 100 ml of water....to raise that 5 or 6C wouldn't take very long at all... Obviously the group has to be raised by that much as well, probably 2C over 30 sec, or 4C over the whole shot with preinfusion...approx, if my estimate is correct.


 If the heating elements can handle it in that time frame then no issues there then, not sure what this would do to the shot though.

I am genuinely surprised that this has not been explored before and results published (surely it has been, right?).

Going slightly back off topic, I am a coin flip away of getting either a 'the Jack' distribution tool or a customer tor tamper (milled to the correct diameter for the IMS baskets) - I do thinking the distribution tool would offer more but feels odd to use that over a tamper!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Because of 17g in my basket, distribution just whispers across the top, need a slightly longer depth. No need to mess with a Torr 54.4 SE will be good.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> If the heating elements can handle it in that time frame then no issues there then, not sure what this would do to the shot though.
> 
> I am genuinely surprised that this has not been explored before and results published (surely it has been, right?).
> 
> Going slightly back off topic, I am a coin flip away of getting either a 'the Jack' distribution tool or a customer tor tamper (milled to the correct diameter for the IMS baskets) - I do thinking the distribution tool would offer more but feels odd to use that over a tamper!


 I have one a bit similar (the one @DavecUK reviewed a few years back,) - bought it a couple of years ago. It's been in its box pretty much since I bought it - I would go with the tamper.

Incidentally my IMS tamper and other bits despatched (much quicker than the expected two weeks) here tomorrow or day after.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Really need to order my basket keep forgetting.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Holonomic No because a lot of the lever stuff relied on magic and perception, with no way of controlling parameters. So they said it was all good and didn't worry about it. I had all the answers ready because I've devoted 10% of my CPU capacity to the V-Vostock for many months.

Trouble is I can't tune Frankenstein properly because it needs a new bottom half to the group, mines so old, it predates the time when the group heaters were done correctly. My group was in commercial use for 5 or 6 years.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Hoffmans YouTube site is your friend







Off topic, but the beginning of this gets me every time...


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Jony said:


> Because of 17g in my basket, distribution just whispers across the top, need a slightly longer depth. No need to mess with a Torr 54.4 SE will be good.


 Great, thank you! In talks with (Jens?) From torr and they are offering to do a 'customer' tamper at 55.1mm which they are saying is correct for the IMS basket... getting into rather finicky details here, but would the .7mm be 'ok'?

@DavecUK we need to set up a GoFundMe page in order to get you a production model and us the results we need?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Great, thank you! In talks with (Jens?) From torr and they are offering to do a 'customer' tamper at 55.1mm which they are saying is correct for the IMS basket... getting into rather finicky details here, but would the .7mm be 'ok'?
> 
> @DavecUK we need to set up a GoFundMe page?


 I am absolutely not an expert, but the IMS page for the baskets says 54/54.4 and the tamper they make/sell is 54.4. Ready to be corrected though. Both baskets and the tamper arriving shortly so can check/photo if that helps. No portafilter yet, so knowing my luck I got it all wrong ...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Holonomic I don't know, might be tight..

As for working out all the tuning, you guys won't have a problem, as long as you don't worry about absolutes and correct temp. But think about consistency and control, with the ability to consistent and repeatable changes


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> @Holonomic I don't know, might be tight..
> 
> As for working out all the tuning, you guys won't have a problem, as long as you don't worry about absolutes and correct temp. But think about consistency and control, with the ability to consistent and repeatable changed


 Dave, if you are ever around the Worcestershire area and fancy a play with the vostok (ie dial my machine in for me) you are more than welcome to come and take all the measurements you like! Actual or perceived!


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Holonomic I had all the answers ready because I've devoted 10% of my CPU capacity to the V-Vostock for many months.
> 
> Trouble is I can't tune Frankenstein properly because it needs a new bottom half to the group, mines so old, it predates the time when the group heaters were done correctly. My group was in commercial use for 5 or 6 years.


 Maybe one of us, future owners, would be willing and able to lend you one of the production unit for tuning and testing... just a thought 😉


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The shots I had from the Frankenstein were great. I can only imagine what the production machine will be like. You lucky people are in for a treat and a half.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Eiffel they are so heavy, when I'm place, you won't want to move it!


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Darn! I had estimated it would weigh below 35 kg with fluids, as a regular Vesuvius is said to weigh a mere 24 kg, presumably without water in it.💦


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Eiffel said:


> Darn! I had estimated it would weigh below 35 kg with fluids, as a regular Vesuvius is said to weigh a mere 24 kg, presumably without water in it.💦


 I'm sure I'm just weaker with age, but it was really heavy.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Vesuvius is not sub 25 kilo must be 35 plus. My 2 Group weighs about 70 with water in I think.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Its definitely in the region of 35kg. I lift it to and from a car 8 times each weekend!

I wish it was 25kg 💪


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Stevebee said:


> Its definitely in the region of 35kg. I lift it to and from a car 8 times each weekend!
> 
> I wish it was 25kg 💪


 That big brass lever group will be adding more than a few kgs to the Vesuvius' weight.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

So, talking to jens again today regarding the tamper and they are insisting that the custom (55.1mm) will fit. Not really sure if the tight fit will make any difference though?!

I am also going to get the following screen and baskets I think 

SML 200 NT

B66 1TH 25M

B66 2TH 26M

B66 2TH 32M


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> So, talking to jens again today regarding the tamper and they are insisting that the custom (55.1mm) will fit. Not really sure if the tight fit will make any difference though?!
> 
> I am also going to get the following screen and baskets I think
> 
> ...


 Parts didn't come today, but hopefully tomorrow. Am sure he knows his stuff. I went for the tamper, handle, spare circlip, 26 &32, and the standard shower (perhaps should have asked about the NT cost - just assumed it was pricey). Will get a silicone group gasket at some point, but feeling over-prepared at this point...


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo has asked the pre-order customers to give their preference for the following :



Type of arms we prefer on the machine


Left or right steam tap.


Any thoughts on the type of arms from usage, durability and functionality aspects will be great. I also need some help in choosing!

I plan to request a right-side steam wand/tap, given her place in our kitchen.

Thanks!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Definitely left steam for me.

Less sure on the arm type though, if only because they are new. The new ones are dramatic to look at, but no idea what they are like to use. @Jony your new 2 group vostok has the new ones - how are you finding them for daily use?

Be interested to hear what you think compared to the Vesuvius (old style)..


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Have requested steam on right and a straight hot water tap on left.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)




----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This is the configuration Patrick and I have gone for


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

'Normal' for me, steam on left. I had already messaged Paolo last week for the request. I only steam a small amount of milk at a time so I thought that the new 'preying mantis' arms would be a bit of overkill.

Excited to see that Paolo states that they are starting to build the first ten machines on Monday, woohoo!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Norvin I am hoping, that the ten are partially built and will just need the bits they were waiting for to be put in, finished off and tested. I am 63 and a right miserable git, but even I am mildly excited


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I am 63 and a right miserable git,


 I'm relatively younger, yet I share your state of mind. 🤣🤣


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Cool, makes sense. leaning towards steam on the left and old style hot water on the right.

suspect first 10 are very close as remember seeing 10 wrapped boilers a long way back. I'm guessing the cases are the main delay (at least for the second batch), with several parts like the pressurestat holding back the rest..

Looking forward to some pics of the first fully finished on, and some videos of it in action soon..


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> This is the configuration Patrick and I have gone for
> 
> View attachment 56651





dfk41 said:


> This is the configuration Patrick and I have gone for
> 
> View attachment 56651


 I like the way you guys have configured the hot water tap. I wonder if that would be too low from the tray. How much clearance do you get from the tray please ?

When he says, the arm type, is this (example your hot water tap) what he means please?

Is that the wooden handle? I thought Dave wasn't sure, if the wood will be durable.

What about the lever handle - is it also the same finish?

I also assume the default steam and hot water tap arms are swivel types.

Sorry, too many questions. Thanks

Edit : Sorry for the double quote!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee We do not know a lot of the finer details matey, so in Paolo we put our trust! Wood was discussed for the handles but we reckon that with the extra grunt required to pull the lever, wooden handles might not be up to it and would split......it is easy enough to retro fit wooden handles though


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee We do not know a lot of the finer details matey, so in Paolo we put our trust! Wood was discussed for the handles but we reckon that with the extra grunt required to pull the lever, wooden handles might not be up to it and would split......it is easy enough to retro fit wooden handles though


 Makes sense. Thanks.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I like the way you guys have configured the hot water tap. I wonder if that would be too low from the tray. How much clearance do you get from the tray please ?
> 
> When he says, the arm type, is this (example your hot water tap) what he means please?
> 
> ...


 when i discussed via email some time ago, Paolo said option would be steam or hot water joystick/toggle used in the vesuvius.

so it would have the same clearance as its effectively the same case..


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @Norvin I am hoping, that the ten are partially built and will just need the bits they were waiting for to be put in, finished off and tested. I am 63 and a right miserable git, but even I am mildly excited


 Me too, and I'm not even getting one.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Like others, I'm also wondering which type of arm to order on my upcoming machine.

It seems that the conventional short arms have the advantage of not retaining water / condensation as there is no 'upwards' section, and they may be less "in the way" when trying to access what is on top of the machine (say a cupboard). They may also be less prone to get damaged than the 'praying mantis' version, and may reduce the risk of splashing water away from the drip tray

Conversely, the praying mantis version may work better with very tall pitchers and they do look cool.

Maybe the conclusion is that there is no wrong choice, and that the options offered create an analysis/paralysis situation 😉 (although I'm leaning towards the short downward arms, mostly for practical reasons).


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

My only slight worry (after emailing Polo earlier), with half and half would be it looking lopsided/asymmetrical. Not the end of the world in this scenario, as can always get another wand and it's a simple DIY job to turn the valve and swap the new wand (asked Paolo this some time ago).


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Is the second email from Paolo (around an hour ago) supposed to contain an attachment? Mine didn't have any.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rusty pie said:


> Is the second email from Paolo (around an hour ago) supposed to contain an attachment? Mine didn't have any.


 He fecked up and something went wrong, he knows and will sort tomorrow


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> Is the second email from Paolo (around an hour ago) supposed to contain an attachment? Mine didn't have any.


 Same here. I am sure he will resend shortly.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

danielpugh said:


> Parts didn't come today, but hopefully tomorrow. Am sure he knows his stuff. I went for the tamper, handle, spare circlip, 26 &32, and the standard shower (perhaps should have asked about the NT cost - just assumed it was pricey). Will get a silicone group gasket at some point, but feeling over-prepared at this point...


 So, placed my order for the torr tamper and ordered the baskets and screen through them also. They actually advised against the nano as the coating doesn't last long (did a quick search and found other comments to make their statement up).

So I think I too will simply order the standard screen too


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> So, placed my order for the torr tamper and ordered the baskets and screen through them also. They actually advised against the nano as the coating doesn't last long (did a quick search and found other comments to make their statement up).
> 
> So I think I too will simply order the standard screen too


 Useful to know, and makes me feel better! Pls post a pic when you get the tamper. Get the feeling I'm going to be jealous!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Yesterday, I had requested the Minima style steam wand arm type. That's one of the available choices.

We have selected steam on the right, hot water on the left.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Just seen Paolo's email with the new choice. I've gone for the Minima style too.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Yesterday, I had requested the Minima style steam wand arm type. That's one of the available choices.
> 
> We have selected steam on the right, hot water on the left.
> 
> View attachment 56691


 I am also going for this choice,water tap left,steam right.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Have gone with Vostok/new steam on left and old/Vesuvius tap on right.

Have asked about possibility of wood for the two toggles (just in case/why not).

Today (courier fun), the IMS parts screen and tamper arrived. The tamper (54.4) is nicer than I expected, much better than my 53 Motta. Made of heavy/Matt metal - handle particularly heavy. Fit is good but not perfect. For both the two baskets (h26m, h32m), it gets about half of the way down the larger basket. So torr are probably spot on size with a 55.4. Pics show next to a 53 motta, and in the two baskets pushed to one side wo you can see the fit.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

So, I went with the first image with bothe the steam and water wands being the larger angled ones... not sure if I will regret that or not though! I assume it wouldnt be too much of a task to change them in the future though...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

God I'm looking forward to hearing how you all find the V-Vostok....exiting times ahead. It's going to be especially interesting how users of other spring lever machines find it....even if they have used an Izzo Pompeii before which has the same (similar) excellent group.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> God I'm looking forward to hearing how you all find the V-Vostok....exiting times ahead. It's going to be especially interesting how users of other spring lever machines find it....even if they have used an Izzo Pompeii before which has the same (similar) excellent group.


 The last lever 8 had was an elektra MCL, I miss that machine! Hoping to be able to get similar tasting results, only consistently! I think I only ever got 1 or 2 decent shots from it per 500g of coffee (grinder was not the best though)

Looking forward to September


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Holonomic said:


> September


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


>


 some confusion...

my permanent backup arrived today - 1st espresso since March, so good. Gaggia classic, and some good coffee. its like an angry demon - good results so far, but without a PID very hot and spurts steam and hot water randomly. I can see why people like them though. time for a sweepstake on next news and second batch (is the second batch full yet?). next step for me is still to see 1st complete machine and shot video pls! In parallel, given the extra time have now started researching future grinder tactics (mythos vs ceado vs monolith - current thinking is that with a niche need a partner hopper/flat/large/angled which points to the mythos)...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@danielpugh Mythos gives really good bang for your buck.....the 75mm burrs are mounted at a 45 degree angle meaning the only place the coffee can exit, is down the chute. I have had a few and I still prefer the traditional higher spin speed to the slower spin Clima Pro, but......they are enormous!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> @danielpugh Mythos gives really good bang for your buck.....the 75mm burrs are mounted at a 45 degree angle meaning the only place the coffee can exit, is down the chute. I have had a few and I still prefer the traditional higher spin speed to the slower spin Clima Pro, but......they are enormous!


 enormous is fine - fits in like a glove where it would go (depth 54cm, height 80cm). Problem is patience waiting for one. bid on one (the older one, not worried about clima/pro) yesterday on ebay, but went in too low as would prefer to buy from a known source generally. Currently between that and a Ceado e37s, but get the feeling that would end up with some wierd project involving a 40 degree bit of plywood. The naked version looked good, but realisticaly i want that with a removeable hopper at 1/3 the price...

anyway back to reality - feels like its going to end up as a mythos, and matter of waiting for ex-commercial/used to become available (no bad thing). There is one on the bay in sudbury, but no rush as the gaggia is more than happy with a niche for now, and sudbury/collection is a very long drive...


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Holonomic said:


> So, I went with the first image with bothe the steam and water wands being the larger angled ones... not sure if I will regret that or not though! I assume it wouldnt be too much of a task to change them in the future though...


 I went with this selection too, I like that both arms do not encroach the space above the tray at all, which was a gripe of mine with other machines.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

rusty pie said:


> I went with this selection too, I like that both arms do not encroach the space above the tray at all, which was a gripe of mine with other machines.


 I was torn between this (ocd/symetry more than anything else), and older school water tap. Part of me wants both! Think i may ask if I can opt to pay extra for spare wand with pearlator/thing.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I'm hesitating between the first picture with the two 'praying mantis' wands and the more reasonable 'old school' version. I ruled out the Minima steam wand version as it doesn't seem to be compatible with ghost steaming of small quantities of milk.

The old school / Vesuvius version is an known entity, and I'm not sure how practical the large angled wands are (can they easily reach into the drip tray?), even if they look nice on the renderings 🤯. Maybe I'll end up going for both too.

In any event it will be steam on the left, water on the right.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> some confusion...


 Not really. End of May - Mid June still be good unless they run into parts delay.



danielpugh said:


> grinder tactics


 I'm happy with JX Pro. It grinds faster on espresso settings. It takes me just 30s to get 20g out.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Not sure if reach and distance are the same between my Vostok and the new ones, ballache no the steam arm doesn't reach the drip tray


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Jony said:


> Not sure if reach and distance are the same between my Vostok and the new ones, ballache no the steam arm doesn't reach the drip tray


 You may want to explore changing the arm, if you haven't already. Not sure, if it is straightforward to swap them though. Dave @DavecUK would know.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Not really. End of May - Mid June still be good unless they run into parts delay.


 I wasn't confused... 😉


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> I wasn't confused... 😉


 Sorry mate! I didn't say, you were! 😃


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee depends on ball and nut size


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee depends on ball and nut size


 🤔


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee depends on ball and nut size


 Doesn't everything boil down to these things? 😀


----------



## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> am 63 and a right miserable git, but even I am mildly excited


 No need to be Miserable, age is just a number.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Nightrider_1uk said:


> No need to be Miserable, age is just a number.


 I am not miserable because I am 63......LOL........I was born miserable, or was is cynical.......I forget now!


----------



## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> I was born miserable, or was is cynical


 A lot of difference between miserable and cynical 😂😂😂. Now I'm. Right cynical bas***d


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Dave @DavecUK, I have a couple of questions.

On the coffee time forum, you had advised "On my machine, which you will appreciate, has a 6 year old group used in a commercial environment which doesn't generate full spring pressure any more at 7 bar".

We have seen on your video that about this bar pressure you cut the shot. On a new group head, do you think this bar pressure could be a bit higher ? Of course, there is no way of knowing unless we pull a shot, weight it on the flow (1:2), observe where it hits the ratio and the manometer starts falling off rapidly.

Another doubt from that forum: "Preinfusion can be as long as you want". I remember your earlier guidance (re-light roasts) that a long pre-infusion can make the coffee bitter and instead advised setting the group head temperature a notch or two higher. Could you advise under what circumstances a long pre-infusion would be helpful please?

Sorry for posting these queries here. Thanks


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee the pressure you end a shot will depend on your desired shot ratio. The pressure might be down a tad on mine but the swept volume may not be. So you might find 7 bar on yours gives 35g espresso from 18g like mine. It's just great not having to use scales, and know you will be within 1g. One more simplification of workflow.

Preinfusion can be as long as you want, but may have increase bitterness, probably more in darker roasts... perhaps I said something misleading?

I would use a longer preinfusion if I ground too fine to avoid puck compression. Possibly light finely ground roasts may benefit as well.

Generally I like to see a couple of drips in the cup in around 8 to 12 sec.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> perhaps I said something misleading?


 Nope. I had asked about longer pre-infusion for light roast. As it can result in a bit of bitterness on the cup, a slight bump in temp was recommended as an alternative. It's a little difficult to draw a line, if exceeded may add to bitterness, is it not ?



DavecUK said:


> I would use a longer preinfusion if I ground too fine to avoid puck compression.


 Sorry for a noob doubt. Would it not lead to more bitterness, unless say a couple of more seconds?

Thanks!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's known as robbing Peter to pay Paul


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think V-Vostok is finally getting a real name.









If they like my suggestion 🤣


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Sounds good.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I think V-Vostok is finally getting a real name.
> 
> View attachment 56870
> 
> ...


 Why Evo please? What does it mean?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee It is a shortened term for Evoluzione, or Italian for Evolution


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Why Evo please? What does it mean?


 @Like Medium Strong Coffee The ladies in the office did point out that EVO means oil in Italian 🙄 As if the stupid non Italian speaking UK guy didn't already know that. Of course their minds turned to Extra Virgin Olive Oil....Mine was firmly set on the Mitsubishi EVO.... 🤣

As @dfk41 Quite correctly says, "evolution", of the Lever to something more appropriate to the modern age and performance expectations.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

The proper name should be Vesuvius DavideRU Leva to reflect who pushed very hard for this machine 😆


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Eiffel said:


> The proper name should be Vesuvius DavideRU Leva to reflect who pushed very hard for this machine 😆


 They made a machine I always wanted, as I wanted..... and now I can't afford one! 🤣


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee The ladies in the office did point out that EVO means oil in Italian 🙄 As if the stupid non Italian speaking UK guy didn't already know that. Of course their minds turned to Extra Virgin Olive Oil....Mine was firmly set on the Mitsubishi EVO.... 🤣
> 
> As @dfk41 Quite correctly says, "evolution", of the Lever to something more appropriate to the modern age and performance expectations.


 I was thinking Evo could be evolution as clarified by David and hence indicating how lever machines have evolved through time!

However, this "stupid non-Italian speaking UK guy" didn't realise it is a short form for the Extra Virgin Olive Oil 😂

So, are we going to be falling in love with the "V", the beauty, as much as the EVO? I am sure we will.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> They made a machine I always wanted, as I wanted..... and now I can't afford one! 🤣


 The man who designs the machine, should not be asked to pay. The company should give him one! 😊

Because, unless this is done, further advancement of the Vesuvius Evo Leva will be a challenge.

I hope Paolo reads this !


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well I got Frankenstien, unfortunately he won't do everything the production machines will do. Lots of old bits and compromises, but I'll keep him alive for as long as I can. He is a bit ill at the moment, but still making great shots


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

It might be time to auction off the collector blue Minima 🤣


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Eiffel said:


> It might be time to auction off the collector blue Minima 🤣


 Ah theres a big box goes with it and I still may have to do tests in future. That one won't work without the big box unless I make a dongle to short some wires in the connector....but it's a test machine, stored for a future need....as are most of my other machines.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Hope it is ok to post re the Vesuvius Evo Leva - p 12

https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK

The magazine mentions 2 machines - the Vostok and the Vesuvius Leva. The former is dual boiler and the later is s single boiler. Are these two are now rolled into one as a dual boiler? Thx


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @DavecUK
> 
> The magazine mentions 2 machines - the Vostok and the Vesuvius Leva. The former is dual boiler and the later is s single boiler. Are these two are now rolled into one as a dual boiler? Thx


 The latter isn't described a single boiler. It is described as being the same as to Vostok but with a 3 litre tank. A tank is a reservoir.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> The latter isn't described a single boiler. It is described as being the same as to Vostok but with a 3 litre tank. A tank is a reservoir.


 My bad!

The similarities are dual boilers, PIDs and the differences are the water tank and direct connection. Does it leave the Vostok with a smaller water tank? Thx


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> My bad!
> 
> The similarities are dual boilers, PIDs and the differences are the water tank and direct connection. Does it leave the Vostok with a smaller water tank? Thx


 @DavecUKknows more than me, but having followed the thread on the other forum - I think the Vostok single is plumb only and was demonstrated at a show, but seemingly delayed/less practical/higher cost/etc. While the Vesuvius leva was kick started as an existing idea late last year taking the Vesuvius and simply swapping the group - resulting in a model with a reservoir much more quickly - hence Frankenstein and what's now about to emerge as a first batch.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I see. I read the coffee time forum; perhaps, I missed the plumb only version discussions on that forum. The magazine's descriptions of two machines puzzled me. Your response makes sense. Thanks @danielpugh


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I see. I read the coffee time forum; perhaps, I missed the plumb only version discussions on that forum. The magazine's descriptions of two machines puzzled me. Your response makes sense. Thanks @danielpugh


 So many posts! Easy to miss all the different parts. Briefly discussed on first post on first page, then here and there since + you see the single group at the show it in a YouTube video - one by espresso TV and so on.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

It's surprising to see these two machines being supposedly introduced at the same time, as I'm not sure why one would pick the Vostok 1 group over the Vesuvius EVO Leva (unless price is a factor, or unless there are some different standards for commercial machines)... we shall see!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Different projects born out of different needs. The Vostok range are purely commercial I think


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Eiffel said:


> It's surprising to see these two machines being supposedly introduced at the same time, as I'm not sure why one would pick the Vostok 1 group over the Vesuvius EVO Leva (unless price is a factor, or unless there are some different standards for commercial machines)... we shall see!


 Out of interest, what advantage does the vesuvius leva have over the vostok 1 group, other than the addition of the water tank?

Sorry, playing devils advocate slightly here.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Out of interest, what advantage does the vesuvius leva have over the vostok 1 group, other than the addition of the water tank?
> 
> Sorry, playing devils advocate slightly here.


 You can buy it 😉


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Holonomic size, boilers material, internal gear pump.

And, you can buy it 😁


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> @Holonomic size, boilers material, internal gear pump.
> 
> And, you can buy it 😁


 So, I think the big one here is that it exists and we can buy it  obviously a clear positive, is the vostok 1 group still planned to be released at all or is the vesuvius leva it's full time replacement?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I guess it will get released, but it's not a machine designed for home use.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Hi,

I've been following this thread closely ever since someone in HB forum mentioned this machine. I'm not into graphs and geeking out and that's why I feel a lever is my best bet. No back flushing is a huge bonus too. I've been eyeing Londinium R for years and then R24 came along with much better functionality but 2 things are holding me back, one is the 1h heat up time and the second is the wet steam (I don't want sweeter milk). This machine however is very appealing but I got some concerns regarding the LSM group. The odd size of baskets is limiting, the over pressure (not that I know the difference but isn't 8.5 bars like in profitec pro 800 is more suitable than 11bars? ) and the puck sneezing.

I live in a country where people don't buy levers and it's not popular here at all and I can't service the machine if anything goes wrong, I know levers requires less maintenance and that's why I chose to go this route. Any advice or tips on that?

I just want to make sure that I made the right decision here. Wether it's LR24 or ACS VOSTOK 1G. I'd like to see more videos of the final production units and to read more user experience posts too.

I've sent Paolo from ACS a dm here few days back but I think he didn't read it. That's why I had to ask here. Sorry for derailing the topic and thanks DaveC for answering my youtube's questions and for all the information you're providing.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 The first run of 10 production machines will be arriving to the owners in the very near future (one part has held things up). Then you will be able to see the thoughts of 10 different people. The LSM group has been around a long time. If you have followed Dave's thoughts from when he first received his test machine then I do not think he has had any criticism at all. It would have been so easy for him to recommend the much cheaper Fiorenzato group, as used by Bosco and Londinium amongst others. If he had taken that route then for example, you would not have been able to have the manometer fitted as there is simply not the room.

I am sure if you stick any specific questions you have here, then folks will try to answer them as best as they can


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I've been following this thread closely ever since someone in HB forum mentioned this machine. I'm not into graphs and geeking out and that's why I feel a lever is my best bet. No back flushing is a huge bonus too. I've been eyeing Londinium R for years and then R24 came along with much better functionality but 2 things are holding me back, one is the 1h heat up time and the second is the wet steam (I don't want sweeter milk). This machine however is very appealing but I got some concerns regarding the LSM group. The odd size of baskets is limiting, the over pressure (not that I know the difference but isn't 8.5 bars like in profitec pro 800 is more suitable than 11bars? ) and the puck sneezing.
> 
> ...


 Puck sneezing is something that happens on all lever machines as there is no 3-way solenoid (unlike e61 or equivalent) - the pressure has to be released and sneezing is just removing the portafilter too early. This machine has the advantage over others in that you can see the pressure on the group manometer (you cannot on most others), so no need to guess as to whether the pressure has dissipated and whether it safe to remove the portafilter.

The default baskets are good by all accounts. I have bought IMS competition as very cheap (£9 each), but don't think they are particularly any better (I was mostly after for tamper size). I'm sure as it's becoming a more popular size vst will consider at some point, but personally not worried at all about that. More of a problem in theory is e.g. niche cup, tamper and portafilter. I have found multiple nice portafilter. I have a nice dose ring care of @Norvin and also a 125ml wine thingy from eBay (sorts me for the niche). There are many options for tamper. I have a 53 (too small), 54.4 (pretty good) and probably getting a 55 (likely ideal but will know for certain later). The IMS (54.4) was cheap and good quality. I put 18g into the smaller filter and it's a reasonable fit, just not tight to the edges like my competition Motta is on e61. Joefrex concept-art make a cheapish 55mm one and torr make a posher one. Pullman do too, but seeemed a bit pricey. There is another dosing cup that several have bought. So not really an issue I don't think.

On the flip side the LSM group (as also used by IZzo Alex leva) is very well regarded, been around for many years. If you check on the home barista forums I think there some who compared profitec 800 Vs Alex leva who posted their opinions.

Over-pressure - I think is an debateable, as mentioned it's a very well established and we'll regarded group. It's not constant like an e61 - it declines throughout the shot (as per any lever machine). The pressure can be manually adjusted by the operator (see video by @DavecUK). You can also remove one of the springs if you want to make it more like say p800 or londinium. Again not worried about this myself.

I think we are all looking forward to seeing the first ten out in the wild. Not long now!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MW11 The single spring levers don't seem to produce 8.5 bar, look at some videos I linked to earlier in this thread. A Fiorenzato 1 spring group will generate 8 against a blind filter and about 7.5 against coffee. What's even worse is that pressure drops away quite rapidly.

I don't know where it all started with 11 bar smashing the puck and other such stuff...I can only go by my own experience and the fact that all the commercial levers have 2 springs. The manufacturers were asked, and they had a view as well as to why one spring was chosen for the home market....I'll leave you to work that one out.

ACS could have chosen the 58mm Fiorenzato group (they have used it before) and it would have saved them considerably on the build cost as the LSM 54mm group costs the factory 40% more....However, they wanted what they and I felt was the best group.

I put videos up of the Alpha1 test bed because I don't like to deal in magic and wish to demonstrate what happens. I've tried to show as much as possible on something that arguably is much, much worse than the actual machine, because my system was made from scrap bits, literally scrap parts.

It's the same with temperature and how that drops on a non cartridge heated group...now sure if you want a dropping temperature profile, you can set up Vesuvius EVO Leva to do that...and it can be any drop over time you want within the heat loss limitations of the group.

I actually measured the outer temp of the group where the real wall of the brew chamber is and it's 89C, my machine is set to 89C. This means the water won't cool...but I can set it to cool if I want to. In the video below, you can see the temperature delta and of course the longer the preinfusion the more it will drop (variables), In a cartridge heated group you can control these variables to be what you want.

ACS have bought the spring lever properly into the 21st century, 3 PIDs, 3 sources of heat, insulated boilers, tank or mains operation, modern but uncomplicated interface... because that's what's needed.

It has a build cost approximately double that of other prosumer spring levers....so it's a LOT of bang for your buck. I do think you are right to wait and see what owners say...You will have plenty of time because I think production up to Mid June is probably sold out and no one has seen a production machine yet!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MW11 You might find this interesting as well.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Yep, I'm in the second batch and Paolo updated via email on Thursday that expected despatch mid June. From an earlier post, I think because there is a longer than normal lead time on the chassis and other parts. Not sure if the second batch is full as didn't ask.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh It was almost full a week or two ago, so I', assuming it's full now...could be wrong.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh It was almost full a week or two ago, so I', assuming it's full now...could be wrong.


 I sort of assumed the same, on the basis that the chassis ordered with ETA etc.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I am also in the second batch. He advised me a couple of weeks ago that the ETA will be end of May or mid-June.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Thank you guys! that was a relief 🙏🏻 Funny that I've been following Londinium R for a long time and just found out about this beautiful machine only a few days ago and now I'm in. I'm really excited and buying a machine from an Italian Manufacturer means high standards and higher quality than any other espresso makers out there. 
How does preorder work? Is there a down payment then a final payment like all other pre-order sales I've seen?

the reason I was worried about baskets is I have a monolith max with shuriken light medium burrs and those large flats need extra fine high precision baskets such as E&B or EPHQ baskets. I hope they will make fitting baskets and may I ask what's the exact diameter? 55mm? 54.5mm? 
Last question If the heating cartridges fail (God forbids that ever happen) what can be done about them? I have 0 knowledge and experience 🥲

this forum is amazing! I'm glad I asked and made up my mind finally ( overthinking and researching won't be missed ). Thanks again


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MW11 for the heater cartridges you simply replace them. One screw at the back of the group for each one removes a brass slug containing the cartridge. It pushes out of the slug. Unclip from wiring harness, and replace. They are relatively inexpensive.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 If you pm @Paolo_Cortese and ask hi the current position.I reckon you pay a deposit then join the queue, but I am sure he will explain


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Thank you guys! that was a relief 🙏🏻 Funny that I've been following Londinium R for a long time and just found out about this beautiful machine only a few days ago and now I'm in. I'm really excited and buying a machine from an Italian Manufacturer means high standards and higher quality than any other espresso makers out there.
> How does preorder work? Is there a down payment then a final payment like all other pre-order sales I've seen?
> 
> the reason I was worried about baskets is I have a monolith max with shuriken light medium burrs and those large flats need extra fine high precision baskets such as E&B or EPHQ baskets. I hope they will make fitting baskets and may I ask what's the exact diameter? 55mm? 54.5mm?
> ...


 hi @MW11 - link for the IMS competition. Not what you are looking for in baskets, but provides the dimensions of the outer basket and tamper - https://www.imsfiltri.com/filtri/b662th26m/ (double) https://www.imsfiltri.com/filtri/b662th32m/ (triple)

54.5/55 is the tamper dimensions as opposed to the basket. I have seen multiple comments saying that 54.4 is the best all-round tamper for LMS across all the baskets as there is some variance between the OEM, the single and the IMS etc.i tried putting 18g in the double basket above yesterday and 54.4 was definately adequate (cost about £30).

i think 55 will literally be scraping the sides (ideal?).

a cheaper (i think) 55 tamper would be the concept-art/joe frex

1385727 TAMPER BASE M8 FLAT S.STEEL ø 55 mm
1385715 HANDLE M8 POP BLACK ALUMINIUM

which is available from lfspareparts (distributor, but available direct from your favourite/relevant reseller).

Jens/Torr tampers quoted from 75 euro. 100 euro for black wood goldfinger. He also mentioned they are going to do some special releases based on LSM.

This link details baskets and accessories as well as details on removing one of the springs and results (ok its for the Izzo Alex leva - but still LSM group) - https://www.home-barista.com/levers/izzo-alex-leva-dosing-baskets-accessories-and-springs-t65129.html


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @MW11 for the heater cartridges you simply replace them. One screw at the back of the group for each one removes a brass slug containing the cartridge. It pushes out of the slug. Unclip from wiring harness, and replace. They are relatively inexpensive.


 Thanks @DavecUK you and the guys here on the forum are the ones who got me into buying this amazing machine (not sure how the @ works 😂)



dfk41 said:


> @MW11 If you pm @Paolo_Cortese and ask hi the current position.I reckon you pay a deposit then join the queue, but I am sure he will explain


 Thanks! I just sent him a pm asking.



danielpugh said:


> hi @MW11 - link for the IMS competition. Not what you are looking for in baskets, but provides the dimensions of the outer basket and tamper - https://www.imsfiltri.com/filtri/b662th26m/ (double) https://www.imsfiltri.com/filtri/b662th32m/ (triple)
> 
> 54.5/55 is the tamper dimensions as opposed to the basket. I have seen multiple comments saying that 54.4 is the best all-round tamper for LMS across all the baskets as there is some variance between the OEM, the single and the IMS etc.i tried putting 18g in the double basket above yesterday and 54.4 was definately adequate (cost about £30).
> 
> ...


 Hey man! Thank you so much for all the info and links! I'm going to follow your steps and start picking up accessories and asking about them too. I'll even ask EP to make some baskets.

I asked Mr. Cortese about the black color. I hope there is an all black like vesuvius color options I saw but I think the group has to be in chrome so it will be interesting to see ACS's creativity with colors and panels.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Thanks @DavecUK you and the guys here on the forum are the ones who got me into buying this amazing machine (not sure how the @ works 😂)
> 
> Thanks! I just sent him a pm asking.
> 
> ...


 Interesting. I did see they had a black one at a show that looked nice, but I think it was a Carbon weave underneath. What would be really nice would be a piano black (or white) gloss - like some hifi speakers.

Something like this (maybe not red) which is "car wrapping foil" someone used on their leva machine on coffesnobs. I don't think I have the skills for this, but it does look nicely done to me.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> Interesting. I did see they had a black one at a show that looked nice, but I think it was a Carbon weave underneath. What would be really nice would be a piano black (or white) gloss - like some hifi speakers.
> 
> Something like this (maybe not red) which is "car wrapping foil" someone used on their leva machine on coffesnobs. I don't think I have the skills for this, but it does look nicely done to me.
> 
> View attachment 56909


 It really looks nice! But I'm like you can't do it on my own. However, Mr. Cortese just sent me a mail confirming that black sides and rear panels are available! So yay for me!!! My all black monolith will look good next to it. I think other colors are available too! Interesting to see what colors other owners will choose.

I just told some friends on HB about this machine in pms. Apparently they've never seen it. Lucky me, I'm getting on queue list before them 👹


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Apart from @MW11, how many of you have opted for non-standard frame colour please? A picture of your choice, if available, will be great. Except the arms and handles, Paolo hasn't asked me to choose the frame colour yet. Early days, I guess.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Apart from @MW11, how many of you have opted for non-standard frame colour please? A picture of your choice, if available, will be great. Except the arms and handles, Paolo hasn't asked me to choose the frame colour yet. Early days, I guess.


 So when I placed my order last month I also ordered the black side and back panels. So i shall have the chrome front/top/drip tray with black sides for mine.

This is the image of the vesuvius in such a configuration.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> So when I placed my order last month I also ordered the black side and back panels. So i shall have the chrome front/top/drip tray with black sides for mine.
> 
> This is the image of the vesuvius in such a configuration.
> 
> View attachment 56943


 Hmm that does look interesting. Are they Matt or gloss finish? Is it extra cost?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@danielpugh I believe Matt and 80 Euros


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> @danielpugh I believe Matt and 80 Euros


 thanks. It does look nice, but i think the 80 euros is the killer for me right now. Will think more on it..


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Holonomic said:


> So when I placed my order last month I also ordered the black side and back panels. So i shall have the chrome front/top/drip tray with black sides for mine.
> 
> This is the image of the vesuvius in such a configuration.
> 
> View attachment 56943


 Looks very nice! I hope the handle, levers and portafilters are in black also. I don't want wood customizations.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MW11 make sure you let ACS know!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@DavecUK I will 👍🏻


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

On a side note, would acaia pearl and ona stem fit under the machine? Like decent does? I just bought the ona stem without checking first 🤭 I thought it was a brilliant idea by decent and that's why I got it. Wishful thinking🤞


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You would be able to use Acaia Pearl but only with a naked portafilter using an espresso or shallow flat white cup.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)




----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Drip tray to bottom of group is millimetres shorter than the Londinium and from memory that was a pain with a single or double spout fitted.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Jony said:


> View attachment 56990


 Hi @Jony I must have missed your review on the Vostok 2 gr now seeing that you have started pulling shots.

How does it compare to the Vesuvius?

Cheers


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

OK because the Vesuvius is profiles, swapping beans and changing stuff was a chore!! This is totally different I've just had repeatedly good shots but steaming milk as gone to pot 🤣no messing what bean I have usually 17g and the Niche is holding up very well.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Jony said:


> View attachment 56990


 acme cup? by coincidence two red 70mm arrived in the post for me today. Machine looking nice!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Nope Loveramics egg 170 ml I think


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Jony said:


> Nope Loveramics egg 170 ml I think


 aah - looks nice either way 🙂

i got a verbal warning for ordering small cups. for larger (acme) cups its wierdly cheaper to get from bahrain than from spain. Emailed them and they said they have reduced their minimum order quanitity to 1000 (they cant find a distributor in the uk). Im not ready for that yet so may have to consider loveramics...


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Hey guys! Thanks for the replies!

What I meant is acaia and the stand's base under the drip tray like these photos



















I have the same stand now


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

If the machine's legs are taller you could overcome the issues using any cups you like! Ona Stem is a brilliant idea 💡


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> If the machine's legs are taller you could overcome the issues using any cups you like! Ona Stem is a brilliant idea 💡


 Fortunately, once you know the weights of your shots you can get within 1g by using the pressure gauge...meaning you don't need anything.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Hey guys! Thanks for the replies!
> 
> What I meant is acaia and the stand's base under the drip tray like these photos
> 
> ...


 I get this. In terms of fitting I think probably fine. Maybe better than Vostok (vaguely remember mention if pushing the group up as much as possible to give about 10cm. But...

Because it's a lever and no 3way - at the end of the shot you move the cup sideways to discard the rubbish/end of shot. So this would need a bit of testing to see how well it works in practice.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Imagine a short wall plastic container underneath the ona stem's stand! When you remove the cup, the over extraction goes in the container! The drip tray would be spotless. Again wishful thinking 😂🙏🏻 Talking about convenience (in other word laziness😭)


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

> 42 minutes ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> Fortunately, once you know the weights of your shots you can get within 1g by using the pressure gauge...meaning you don't need anything.


 I know myself, I'll use the scale all the time 😅


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Imagine a short wall plastic container underneath the ona stem's stand! When you remove the cup, the over extraction goes in the container! The drip tray would be spotless. Again wishful thinking 😂🙏🏻 Talking about convenience (in other word laziness😭)


 That could work, but smaller cups as total height will be the tray+cup+stand.

Easier just to let it drop into the drip tray, and slide the scales probably.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

MW11 said:


> Imagine a short wall plastic container underneath the ona stem's stand! When you remove the cup, the over extraction goes in the container! The drip tray would be spotless. Again wishful thinking 😂🙏🏻 Talking about convenience (in other word laziness😭)


 That's a actually a really good idea, despite using scale or not! Love it!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Lots of very good ideas on here!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Lots of very good ideas on here!


 And a very friendly place, even more so lately.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

All coffee communities I'm on are friendly, but you guys share my excitement about this machine! I think we are now bounded with each other and we all should be sworn to loyalty by Don Paolo Corteseone

WELCOME TO THE ACS's FAMILY


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I'm trying to lump in lever group rebuild kits to cover 3 or 4 years and water valve rebuild kits to cover 6-10 years and a bag full of steel shower screen snap rings, plus some other bits. I just got to make sure I don't forget anything.


 Sorry to raise a question on these:

How likely do we get some of these when we get the machine please ? Do we get a chance to add these while paying the final balance?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Sorry to raise a question on these:
> 
> How likely do we get some of these when we get the machine please ? Do we get a chance to add these while paying the final balance?


 Dunno....

I do have some ideas for spares and accessories...


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Dunno....
> 
> I do have some ideas for spares and accessories...


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

So there's not a chance in hell this is coming to the US right?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> So there's not a chance in hell this is coming to the US right?


 I think that would be a question for Paolo. Would need parts changing over for US voltage. This happened for the Vesuvius, but may be more complex than just wires and input e.g. boiler elements @DavecUK may know or have discussed.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh @gus6464 as the minima and v are sold in us and it uses parts from both...it shouldn't be a massive problem to make a US version. So no reason why not in the future.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh @gus6464 as the minima and v are sold in us and it uses parts from both...it shouldn't be a massive problem to make a US version. So no reason why not in the future.


 Ahh ok makes sense. I added a flow paddle to my e61 machine and found that my favorite shots are the ones where I try to mimic a lever machine so might as well just go for the real thing.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Ahh ok makes sense. I added a flow paddle to my e61 machine and found that my favorite shots are the ones where I try to mimic a lever machine so might as well just go for the real thing.


 If they do make it for the USA (I will suggest to Paolo that he does, but it does depend on the interest)....then you have a bit of a treat in store. I can emulate a LSM Lever profile on the Vesuvius...but it's not quite the same. Depth/Diameter of puck, stable temperature and the analogue, rather than digital nature of pressure management...no PID pump control; and adjustments. It seems to just make a fabulous shot. Much better than the LSM Levers I fell in love with 18 years ago, but they were not dual boilers.


----------



## 30527 (Apr 30, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> If they do make it for the USA (I will suggest to Paolo that he does, but it does depend on the interest)....then you have a bit of a treat in store. I can emulate a LSM Lever profile on the Vesuvius...but it's not quite the same. Depth/Diameter of puck, stable temperature and the analogue, rather than digital nature of pressure management...no PID pump control; and adjustments. It seems to just make a fabulous shot. Much better than the LSM Levers I fell in love with 18 years ago, but they were not dual boilers.


 Hi there @DavecUK I've been following this thread over the last month or so and just wanted to say that I am certainly interested in a US model.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

CoffeeandDonuts said:


> Hi there @DavecUK I've been following this thread over the last month or so and just wanted to say that I am certainly interested in a US model.


 I guess it depends on ACS and the level of genuine interest...I think in the UK and Europe, there's a lot of low hanging fruit using demand created by other lever machines. Especially when those machines don't offer anything like the Vesuvius EVO Leva and are sometimes more expensive..

Welcome to the forum


----------



## Gav86 (Dec 10, 2020)

I too have been following this thread with interest! I've been toying with the thoughts of an upgrade and this thread has refocused my attention! I'm a little way off upgrading but would someone be able to let me know (or message me) the approx cost of the evo leva? I think between here and Tapatalk I've seen a figure in euro but I cant for the life of me remember!

I'm excited once again! Haha dangerous...


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Gav86 said:


> I too have been following this thread with interest! I've been toying with the thoughts of an upgrade and this thread has refocused my attention! I'm a little way off upgrading but would someone be able to let me know (or message me) the approx cost of the evo leva? I think between here and Tapatalk I've seen a figure in euro but I cant for the life of me remember!
> 
> I'm excited once again! Haha dangerous...


 With all it's specs it still costs less than a LR24 (Like what @DavecUK said, best bang for your buck). I advise you to message @Paolo_Cortese directly and find out.

kiss the ring my friend and you will be caffeinated for life! 😈


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Gav86 said:


> I too have been following this thread with interest! I've been toying with the thoughts of an upgrade and this thread has refocused my attention! I'm a little way off upgrading but would someone be able to let me know (or message me) the approx cost of the evo leva? I think between here and Tapatalk I've seen a figure in euro but I cant for the life of me remember!
> 
> I'm excited once again! Haha dangerous...


 Not certain but with the way it's done I think all in about 2.5K gbp including delivery and taxes....but you need to check, especially with people who have already pre-ordered.

I also don't know if ACS are doing this as a special to launch the product and will move to a Retail Supported route in the future? If they do it will obviously cost more....The reason for this is it has a significantly higher *build* cost than other popular levers. The group alone is 40% more expensive for the factory to buy, than the Fiorenzato 58mm group (commonly and incorrectly refered to as Bosco). I know because the factory uses both groups. On the Ventus, they use the Fiorenzato group and could have made the same choice for the Vesuvius EVO Leva, but I have always wanted a 54mm LSM group prosumer lever....so no way was I going to suggest the cheaper group.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> So there's not a chance in hell this is coming to the US right?


 I spoke to Paolo yesterday and they definitely intend to make a US version available.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I spoke to Paolo yesterday and they definitely intend to make a US version available.


 That's great news! Some friends on HB forum are interested in this machine too.

I feel like 1 spring is right for me especially that I have a large flat (monolith max), that's why I just asked Paolo to take off the smaller spring and include in the box. This shows the beauty of this group head chosen by ACS! It's very versatile and you have the choice to go either way. If you have a large conical or a smaller flat then the 2 springs are the best way to go ( I asked someone who has Alex Leva and he said 2 springs are better but he had to change his grinder from monolith flat to hg-1 and he really loves it. However, I'm not changing my grinder since I just got it and taking out the smaller spring is a better solution for me).


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 Why don't you just accept the machine as the factory designed it matey? As you can say, you can always have the spring removed (or for that matter added) but in my view, the first USP for the Evo is the fact that it is a dual spring where nearly every other lever machine in the domestic market is a single spring. The amount of effort that has gone into finding a case that did not tip when paired with a dual spring might surprise you! Last analogy, why buy a machine gun capable of firing 60 shots a second then ask the factory to disable that feature and make it so it fires one bullet at a time?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> However, I'm not changing my grinder since I just got it and taking out the smaller spring is a better solution for me).


 Have you actually seen the pressure profiles when similar commercial spring lever groups only use one spring in domestic machines......

You can use 2 springs and you don't have to change your grinder...don't believe all the mumbo jumbo. Try 2 springs first, it might surprise you.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> That's great news! Some friends on HB forum are interested in this machine too.
> 
> I feel like 1 spring is right for me especially that I have a large flat (monolith max), that's why I just asked Paolo to take off the smaller spring and include in the box. This shows the beauty of this group head chosen by ACS! It's very versatile and you have the choice to go either way. If you have a large conical or a smaller flat then the 2 springs are the best way to go ( I asked someone who has Alex Leva and he said 2 springs are better but he had to change his grinder from monolith flat to hg-1 and he really loves it. However, I'm not changing my grinder since I just got it and taking out the smaller spring is a better solution for me).


 This confuses me. I thought better Grinder meant more uniformity and consistency with larger burr. Why would e.g. monolith require changing - you would adjust the grind setting to make finer or coarser accordingly. I can believe that high uniformity ( low uniformity), or burr type (conical/flat)might change things by e.g. producing more/less fines etc but again wouldnt you just adjust settings accordingly. Can see it might be harder to dial in. But to require a change grinder (from monolith) - seems unusual - maybe for a change in workflow. That said I am hypothesising as I dont have a monolith ;-)???


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This is as Davec says, mumbo jumbo! There was a lot of hype put out years ago as to why a certain lever machine could not have dual springs and the answer was because the second spring destroyed the flavour of the lighter roasted single origin beans.....absolute twoddle! It was because the extra grunt needed make the machine tip! So, around these high end grinders fairy stories are written.......do you believe in fairies?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I have no idea 😱 I just trust my friend's findings. Bit lazy tbh 🤷🏻‍♂️ Nothing else. Actually, I asked 2 who have Alex Leva and they both agreed about this. Conicals/small flats provide more range than larger flats where you grind close to burr touch. I could always put the 2nd spring back in if I feel the results aren't that great. Also, if I do this we will have a chance to compare results and communicate tasting notes ...etc. No harm in trying 🙅🏻‍♂️


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Just retard the lever and get whatever pressure you want.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MW11 said:


> I could always put the 2nd spring back in if I feel the results aren't that great. Also, if I do this we will have a chance to compare results and communicate tasting notes ...etc. No harm in trying 🙅🏻‍♂️


 It's a problem when anecdotal accounts are unquestioned and repeated as fact. As a user of a large flat burr grinder, I will be interested in your findings and might just test it out myself down the line once I have got to know what the Evo does with lighter roasts with the double spring set up. It's nice to have the option of a double or single spring set up in the Evo.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> I have no idea 😱 I just trust my friend's findings. Bit lazy tbh 🤷🏻‍♂️ Nothing else. Actually, I asked 2 who have Alex Leva and they both agreed about this. Conicals/small flats provide more range than larger flats where you grind close to burr touch. I could always put the 2nd spring back in if I feel the results aren't that great. Also, if I do this we will have a chance to compare results and communicate tasting notes ...etc. No harm in trying 🙅🏻‍♂️


 Absolutely not - being able to change and tweak is a plus point. I'm just curious about what's going on there. In my head larger flat burr+ more uniform = requires tighter grind as less fines perhaps..


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Well, @DavecUK convinced me! I can retard the lever! That's what the gauge is for!

Dave Smart 😩


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MW11 said:


> Well, @DavecUK convinced me! I can retard the lever! That's what the gauge is for!


 Group pressure gauge is your friend.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

danielpugh said:


> Absolutely not - being able to change and tweak is a plus point. I'm just curious about what's going on there. In my head larger flat burr+ more uniform = requires tighter grind as less fines perhaps..


 More likely less boulders, if it is a flat with a tighter distribution than normal/conical. You need a certain amount of fines to moderate the flow.


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> the Fiorenzato 58mm group (commonly and incorrectly refered to as Bosco).


 What's the background to this? According to Fiorenzato's website, they specialise in making grinders? Thanks in advance. I've seen so many differing claims about the manufacturers of this group.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dunno...Just what the two main types are called over in Italy....there was some stuff here about the business name. I've just always heard the two main groups called that in Italy.

https://www.pierrocoffee.com.au/fiorenzato-grinders

https://www.cafeparts.com/Espresso-Machine-Parts/Fiorenzato/Lever-Brew-Group?itemid=9612

http://www.caffevinci.com/machines-equipment-c1/espresso-machines-c20/fiorenzato-piazza-san-marco-2-group-lever-espresso-machine-p120

Las San Marco Group below









ACS Use both group types...this is the Ventus


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@mathof It was always a bit of a secret in Italy. I doubt Fiorenzato make the groups but that is what the are referred to as. They do different versions of it. Bit of interesting info over on H-B

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/advice-re-lever-groups-la-san-marco-or-grimac-fiorenzato-t57011.html


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> ACS Use both group types...this is the Ventus


 The Ventus looks fantastic. Has anyone on this forum ever used one?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

mathof said:


> The Ventus looks fantastic. Has anyone on this forum ever used one?


 Specs aside, Vesuvius EVO Leva will look even better with color options offered by ACS.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I just gave my friend Mr. Cortese's email. Looks like the family is growing fast 🔥.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Do we have any update on the first batch please? Thanks


----------



## RobW (Dec 24, 2017)

I am also keen to hear from the first cohort. It is going to be interesting to see how people find it, especially those with experience of the LR. Any news?

I'd be happy to offer up my LR for a side by side comparison when rules allow.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

RobW said:


> I am also keen to hear from the first cohort. It is going to be interesting to see how people find it, especially those with experience of the LR. Any news?
> 
> I'd be happy to offer up my LR for a side by side comparison when rules allow.


 I'm assuming nothing despatched at this point, as would have expected to see at least a picture of a/the finished machine(s), or a row of ten. Then some sort of customs payment notification from an exciting new/future owner etc. Guessing though...


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

So, I unfortunately am no longer in the family 

I regret to say I have cancelled my order.... I have however ordered a 2 group vostok, so I shall still be keeping a close eye on this thread for tips and advice.

the reasoning for me changing was purely cosmetic and the fact I was going to plumb in the machine either way. The single group (if I am being honest) would have been preferred but interested to see how I get on with 2 groups and how I get on with it!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> So, I unfortunately am no longer in the family
> 
> I regret to say I have cancelled my order.... I have however ordered a 2 group vostok, so I shall still be keeping a close eye on this thread for tips and advice.
> 
> the reasoning for me changing was purely cosmetic and the fact I was going to plumb in the machine either way. The single group (if I am being honest) would have been preferred but interested to see how I get on with 2 groups and how I get on with it!


 Still related! Race to see which gets delivered first between your 2-group and the second batch. Jealous of you and @Jony as very nice looking!


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

danielpugh said:


> Still related! Race to see which gets delivered first between your 2-group and the second batch. Jealous of you and @Jony as very nice looking!


 @Jony and his machine may have had a hand to play in this.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Holonomic said:


> @Jony and his machine may have had a hand to play in this.


 What colour did you go for?


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> What colour did you go for?


 Colour? Do you mean the side panels? I got the standard chrome and black


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Holonomic said:


> @Jony and his machine may have had a hand to play in this.


 Don't blame me😁


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Jony said:


> Don't blame me😁


 No blame


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

CAn't really help on when they are being dispatched but I have this picture which maybe of interest. It is the counterbalance weight, a really hefty bit as well. I hope that these are the finishing touches now!


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Does not look far from completion!

May go without saying but whom ever ordered the 21st unit will now be in batch #2


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Oh, and I thought you are in the first batch and that I will take your place jumping from the second batch to first. 🤣


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Denis S said:


> Oh, and I thought you are in the first batch and that I will take your place jumping from the second batch to first. 🤣


 Afraid not! I think I just missed out on batch 1 by one or two places 

I think it shall be worth the wait though... just breaking the news to the better half that she has lost a bit more worktop space... eye brows were raised.. I need to think of a way to justify the second group head now


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Afraid not! I think I just missed out on batch 1 by one or two places
> 
> I think it shall be worth the wait though... just breaking the news to the better half that she has lost a bit more worktop space... eye brows were raised.. I need to think of a way to justify the second group head now


 She can help out when friends come visiting ... Not sure that would go down well here as justification..


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> CAn't really help on when they are being dispatched but I have this picture which maybe of interest. It is the counterbalance weight, a really hefty bit as well. I hope that these are the finishing touches now!
> 
> View attachment 57091


 Yes yes yesssss

long legs 🦵 👍👍

Acaia pearl and Ona stem's base can fit beneath the drip tray 🤲🏻


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> Yes yes yesssss
> 
> long legs 🦵 👍👍
> 
> Acaia pearl and Ona stem's base can fit beneath the drip tray 🤲🏻


 Probably not...


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Probably not...


 🥲🥲🥲🥲🥲🥲


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> I spoke to Paolo yesterday and they definitely intend to make a US version available.


 That's awesome to hear. I can wait for a while as I just pre-ordered the US version of the DF64 "Solo" grinder with SSP burrs so wife will be happy that I didn't get a bunch of new equipment all at once.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo advised me that parts delay due to Covid. However, the first batch' shipping will start this week and will end next.

The parts for the second are due in the middle of May; the shipping is likely from the end of May to the first week of June.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo also recommends keeping the front panel and drip tray in stainless steel. Colours can be had for the side and back panels @ €120 for 3 sides. I am going to keep the default stainless steel options. I can't afford the additional costs. 😀


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Paolo advised me that parts delay due to Covid. However, the first batch' shipping will start this week and will end next.
> 
> The parts for the second are due in the middle of May; the shipping is likely from the end of May to the first week of June.


 You gave me some excellent news. My bday is early in June, so I get the best present. I am planing to write a full review on it in comparison to something more hyped and modern (Decent), not that they have many things in common.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Denis S said:


> You gave me some excellent news. My bday is early in June, so I get the best present. I am planing to write a full review on it in comparison to something more hyped and modern (Decent), not that they have many things in common.


 Awesome. Advance birthday greetings mate!


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Denis S said:


> You gave me some excellent news. My bday is early in June, so I get the best present. I am planing to write a full review on it in comparison to something more hyped and modern (Decent), not that they have many things in common.


 Wow, excellent birthday present!

And really eager to see that comparison as they may not have things in common but you can modify slightly the pressure on the EVO Leva (or not) and shot with the same profile in Decent. Really curious about it.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Please god put me on the second batch 🤲🏻


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

MW11 said:


> Please god put me on the second batch 🤲🏻


 Is "God" called "Paolo"? 🤣


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is "God" called "Paolo"? 🤣


 In this case he might be 😂😂


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@DavecUK commander of the alpha team and leader of the Leva pull squad, have you tried americanos with the machine? I think a new extraction-pornographic video is due!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> @DavecUK commander of the alpha team and leader of the Leva pull squad, have you tried americanos with the machine? I think a new extraction-pornographic video is due!


 Yes, but that's just me adding hot water from the Osmio to an espresso. Not very exciting.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Image in my mind - slow motion, jazz, bottomless portafilter etc


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

For the people that pre-ordered did ecs give you an option for bottomless portafilters?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I presume you mean ACS 😉... If that the case, my understanding is that the pre-ordered machine will come with 3 portafilters: single, double and naked


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Eiffel said:


> I presume you mean ACS 😉... If that the case, my understanding is that the pre-ordered machine will come with 3 portafilters: single, double and naked


 Yep

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s110.html


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I have a robot now and I love 6 bar shots. 19.3g in 43g out in 42-46s at 6bars. Then I add 150ml hot water (one of the best coffees I've had). Would be really interesting to try 11bar shots. I think they will make one hell of milk based drinks too. I think retarding the lever is easy but is it consistent?
Accessories I'm going to get:

Bravo Leveling tamper 54.7mm and 55mm base only

Bravo Distributor 54.7mm

Bravo Acrylic Tamper/Distributor Stand

Bravo Tamping Stand

Orphan Espresso Ipanema 53/54 dosing ring

Now I need to find : IMS shower screen - IMS baskets - LF baskets - Group head gaskets

most of all : machined catching cup to fit my monolith 54mm (any suggestions?)

Help 🙋🏻‍♂️


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 I bought one of these, and very nicely made it is. My machine will be here soon so I will tell you how well, or badly, it performs. The idea being the cup fits inside the pf, sitting on the outer ring

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08HH2XVM4/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o07_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I am not bothering with changing the shower screens and baskets until I see how well the stock items perform. It was talked about at one time, that there maybe some group gaskets and lever seals in the box, so again, hang fire on those util the first machines hit the tarmac!


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Just saw this posted on insta earler by ACS. Did anybody recieve any more information after making the final payment to Paolo?In the lines of when he despatched or is going to?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

I can't see that on Instagram - good sleuthing. Was hoping to see pics of a fully assembled machine, but boxed up and in transit also good! Hopefully this isn't a shipment of different models, as all on one pallet so presumably the same destination. Fingers crossed!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I don't think its Leva.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

You got me all excited. I think those are Minima.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

perhaps, frames !


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Definitely not Minimas but not sure what they are. The standard Vesuvius comes crated in wood but they could also be a side on view of commercial machines.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

In Napoli beside the sea
It happened on a night like this
In Napoli our hearts were free
And we surrendered to A C S

🎶🎵


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@MW11your machine can't come fast enough 😁


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Stevebee


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

won't be long now....


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I meant, most of the machines should start air shipping from Italy (1st batch only) Tuesday or Wednesday


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I meant, most of the machines should start air shipping from Italy (1st batch only) Tuesday or Wednesday


 Based on previous timetable - 2nd batch chassis should arrive with Paolo soon.

Hoping to see a picture/video of a working production machine soon, as next best thing to a deliveryman with pallet..


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I meant, most of the machines should start air shipping from Italy (1st batch only) Tuesday or Wednesday


 Great news! 
I don't know which batch I'm on but I hope it's 2nd otherwise I'll be crying all summer 🥲


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

MW11 said:


> Great news!
> I don't know which batch I'm on but I hope it's 2nd otherwise I'll be crying all summer 🥲


 Second batch still has some slots i believe so you'll be fine.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@BlackCatCoffee @BlackCatCoffee We must have different sources! I thought the second slot was filled and there were spaces on the third!


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> @BlackCatCoffee @BlackCatCoffee We must have different sources! I thought the second slot was filled and there were spaces on the third!


 Unless something has been lost in translation ACS told me today they have slots in the second batch if I wish to take some units.

Could perhaps be different for me as a retailer. I am sure they will be happy to confirm where you stand.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Looking forward to photos, first impressions and some videos too! Good luck to all those who are in the first batch!


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I meant, most of the machines should start air shipping from Italy (1st batch only) Tuesday or Wednesday


 Well I'm a little concerned as I'm in the first batch but not having any luck in getting a response from ACS to my queries about settlement payment and shipping.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rusty pie said:


> Well I'm a little concerned as I'm in the first batch but not having any luck in getting a response from ACS to my queries about settlement payment and shipping.


 Drop them an e-mail...must be a reason?


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

rusty pie said:


> Well I'm a little concerned as I'm in the first batch but not having any luck in getting a response from ACS to my queries about settlement payment and shipping.


 I'm in the first batch too and haven't had any contact regarding payment of balance.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The second batch is&#8230;.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Talking of STILL WAITING (above), I think we really ought to acknowledge the part that our mentor @Davecuk has played in all of this. His brainchild (if I am right) was first talked about in September last year, yet some 8 months later and having had Covid to deal with that timeframe is simply amazing. This of course demonstrates the success of him dealing with both the design and production company, and the sales company in one. Others must look on in awe when you consider the time delays many new products are suffering in trying to get even a test bed to the market.

I have been pals with Dave since 2002 and we know each other pretty well. He is the most knowledgeable person I have come across in the coffee industry. He has a heart of gold and will help anyone, if he is able to. This forum is a really lucky place to have his patronage. If I had anything stronger than a glass of Vimto, I would rise it in your direction matey!


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

????

Joking aside, i think its hard for any business atm to do anything, with Brexit and covid almost crippling some industry.

Dont forget alot of uk businesses have been shut due to covid, we've felt the knock on at work for getting parts and supplies.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> Talking of STILL WAITING (above), I think we really ought to acknowledge the part that our mentor @Davecuk has played in all of this. His brainchild (if I am right) was first talked about in September last year, yet some 8 months later and having had Covid to deal with that timeframe is simply amazing. This of course demonstrates the success of him dealing with both the design and production company, and the sales company in one. Others must look on in awe when you consider the time delays many new products are suffering in trying to get even a test bed to the market.
> 
> I have been pals with Dave since 2002 and we know each other pretty well. He is the most knowledgeable person I have come across in the coffee industry. He has a heart of gold and will help anyone, if he is able to. This forum is a really lucky place to have his patronage. If I had anything stronger than a glass of Vimto, I would rise it in your direction matey!


 Hear, hear


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake Quite agree Jake but it must be even worse in Italy where this baby comes from


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

You guys are lucky, lockdown happened in my order last year I nearly give up, paid Feb got it June😭


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The biggest risk is the never ending Covid woes, which keeps rearing its' head in one form or another, on humanity, business and economies.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The biggest risk is the never ending Covid woes, which keeps rearing its' head in one form or another, on humanity, business and economies.


 That's why all we do here (both forum and coffee chitter-chatter, and the development and launching of a new product) is a nice disturbance, even if it's a small ripple, into all these distress. Let's hope we all leave these times behind soon.

So... we are eager to see pictures and first impressions of these machines, and receive news from Paolo or his team (also i'm in the second batch and not received any communication since a month ago).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The biggest risk is the never ending Covid woes, which keeps rearing its' head in one form or another, on humanity, business and economies.


 Paolos having a major ball ache at the moment, which slowed things down ????


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi to all you First Batchers,

Any news on whether your machines have been dispatched? I expected some excited chatter on the newsgroup, but you have all been quiet......

Dave


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm going to try and give you guys an update as I understand the situation (just heard). The machines were all on test last week and yesterday. They have found a bug in the Gicar Software on the main board. This is an odd one where low service boiler water level stops filling the main boiler correctly, but prevents the group fill from stopping. It's an obscure one because the situation would only rarely arise, probably only ever in testing. It needs fixing though.

I don't know if the fix can be accommodated locally in wiring, or Gicar need to fix the firmware...Fortunately Gicar respond rapidly to bugs once they are identified. The main reason this doesn't happen on the Vostok (which uses the same board), is the system controls the pump and boiler fill a little differently. It's way better firmware is right from the factory, as although you can update using the USB Key, it's a pain to do...

I'll keep you posted

P.S. My test bed is different, I don't have a lot of the facilities in the production machines...so this wasn't an issue for me.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

This shows how great ACS is! They test their machines thoroughly before shipping them to costumers. I'm in no hurry now! I want them to test it day and night for a month then they can send mine😩 better be sure than sorry 🤷🏻‍♂️😂


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Even it is a pain to do, I'm pleased to read that software can be updated with a USB key. I'm on the second batch, and in no hurry to receive my machine (assuming the delay is 'reasonable' of course).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MW11 It would also be bloody nice if they get sent soon!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @MW11 It would also be bloody nice if they get sent soon!


 Agreed. I don't want to bother Paolo as I'm assuming he's stressed and overworked, and cause is parts delays again. Would be good to get an update of some sort. It's confusing when machines are in theory finished, customers waiting to pay and yet no communication.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> Agreed. I don't want to bother Paolo as I'm assuming he's stressed and overworked, and cause is parts delays again. Would be good to get an update of some sort. It's confusing when machines are in theory finished, customers waiting to pay and yet no communication.


https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=843825&embedComment=843825&embedDo=findComment


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=843825&embedComment=843825&embedDo=findComment


 Doh red face, missed your update (even though only 3 posts above - feeling stupid now) - thanks @DavecUK


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Are there others in the first batch that have not yet been able to contact Paolo for the balance payment?


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

rusty pie said:


> Are there others in the first batch that have not yet been able to contact Paolo for the balance payment?


 I haven't heard anything yet either. I'm assuming that Paolo will be in contact when he is ready.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Hi all, sorry to hear about the delay.

I beleive Paolo may be rather busy as I have tried contacting him a few times regarding my vostok (note: the 2 group, not this new machine) and he has been un responsive. The last update I received was that the machine is ready just awaiting on the painted panels. Knowing that this bug has been found on the first batch of these I can see why he is busy!

I am sure he will resolve asap!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Rocket Epica enters the ring with a beautiful design! Double boiler lever (saturated group head) looks solid. Let the companies' wars begin 🔥


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MW11 Lol, it's not a lever machine, it's a pumped machine, the thing on the top is for controlling pressure....which is pretty irritating, if you want it under a cabinet.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @MW11 Lol, it's not a lever machine, it's a pumped machine, the thing on the top is for controlling pressure....which is pretty irritating, if you want it under a cabinet.


 I was wondering about that thing! How can it be pulled if there was no cut! Well, Rocket is trying 😂😂😂


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

And this one from Nurri Coffee reminds me of something...


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @MW11 Lol, it's not a lever machine, it's a pumped machine, the thing on the top is for controlling pressure....which is pretty irritating, if you want it under a cabinet.


 It reminds me of the fuel injection module on modern Triumph motorcycles that's placed in something that looks like carburetors 😆


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

msmk0 said:


> And this one from Nurri Coffee reminds me of something...
> 
> View attachment 57526


 That's gorgeous.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

When I see these beautiful wooden panels I always wonder how wood will stand the test of time regarding het and the ability to warp. There is probably nothing to worry about, but there again......


----------



## Marocchino (May 1, 2019)

dfk41 said:


> There is probably nothing to worry about, but there again......


 Having a piece of wood with a slot in it stuck on top of a hot saturated group surely has the potential for splitting.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

msmk0 said:


> And this one from Nurri Coffee reminds me of something...
> 
> View attachment 57526


 Black is gorgeous 🤩


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Black is gorgeous 🤩
> 
> View attachment 57530


 They do need to finish their website. I clicked "buy now" and it takes you to themeforest...


----------



## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @MW11 Lol, it's not a lever machine, it's a pumped machine, the thing on the top is for controlling pressure....which is pretty irritating, if you want it under a cabinet.


 Then I wonder what makes it different from an E61 flow control paddle apart from increasing the height unnecessarily?

Apart from this, considering the announced RRP of €5,950... well personally I don't see much of a competition happening here


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

adamk said:


> Then I wonder what makes it different from an E61 flow control paddle apart from increasing the height unnecessarily?
> 
> Apart from this, considering the announced RRP of €5,950... well personally I don't see much of a competition happening here


 Interestingly, Rocket (Owned by Astoria) have asked about sending me machines for engineering review and problem solving. I wouldn't do anything for them when A Meo owned it...I think if it goes ahead and I decide to do it, they may end up not liking me very much.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUK wonder if the experts on another forum will have any requests for members to complete an engineering review?


----------



## oskuk (Oct 20, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Interestingly, Rocket (Owned by Astoria) have asked about sending me machines for engineering review and problem solving. I wouldn't do anything for them when A Meo owned it...I think if it goes ahead and I decide to do it, they may end up not liking me very much.


 Just short sidepath: It would be interesting to have a better view who owns who and who owned earlier. Grinders too.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@oskuk that's not so easy to unravel and it's changed a lot over 3 years. They tend not to publicise it.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

I noticed the image below on Instagram yesterday, so I guess the name is official now (maybe it was before as well 🙂


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I love naming stuff


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I am frustrated that some of these things happened but they are part of making a machine from scratch and testing it so there are no bugs at users.

The frustration is not because I am not getting my machine anytime soon, but because there are no units delivered so that at least 1 or 2 people report back some valuable information (photos, videos, some words). Any product you release there will always be some things that could be done different, but I do not mind about those. Even in cars when you buy a car that has been developed for many many years, you can still find some thing that wont work entirely.

I hope Paolo and the team can fix it and that 1-2 units are send so we can see some real pictures into a kitchen with the machine.

As a side note, and I know this is not going to happen, if this machine would be changed in the way the preinfusion/gear pump and boilers work, I would then cancel my order and buy something else. I buyed it just because it was checking 99% of the boxes in what a machine has to do to achieve an outstanding espresso.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I am frustrated that some of these things happened but they are part of making a machine from scratch and testing it so there are no bugs at users.
> 
> The frustration is not because I am not getting my machine anytime soon, but because there are no units delivered so that at least 1 or 2 people report back some valuable information (photos, videos, some words). Any product you release there will always be some things that could be done different, but I do not mind about those. Even in cars when you buy a car that has been developed for many many years, you can still find some thing that wont work entirely.
> 
> ...










????


----------



## DrH (Aug 4, 2020)

Does anyone know if there is a US dealer that will sell these?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

DrH said:


> Does anyone know if there is a US dealer that will sell these?


 suggest you PM Paolo and ask @Paolo_Cortese


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Would expect ACS would want to crack the US market given its potential size.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DrH said:


> Does anyone know if there is a US dealer that will sell these?


 Hey DrH! It's Ad-85 from HB😂

welcome to the forum and I think Paolo is interested in the US market. Send him a pm and find out. 
-

My all black accessories finally arrived! Bravo: 55mm tamper, distributor 54.7mm, dosing ring and tamping stand. LeverCraft wdt tool. BPlus shower screen protector 55mm. IMS shower screen and 1 basket. I'll keep looking for LF baskets. 
Grinders ready too! Only thing missing is the black sides & rear Leva 😔 Now join me, lever brothers in prayers for faster shipping of the machines. Amen 🙏🏻


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I love Bravo products and buying directly is cheaper! 
here's his account on instagram:

https://instagram.com/gilberto939?utm_medium=copy_link
the best thing is that Gilberto makes custom tamping bases for only a 100 BR$

I got another base 54.7mm and I could order anytime if I needed another size! International shipping will be a pain but it's expected (shipping was 280 BR$) + tax bill was low too 😉


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

an update

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s380.html#p6502


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> an update
> 
> https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s380.html#p6502


 Nurri's wands look way better 🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Nurri's wands look way better 🤷🏻‍♂️


 They look identical to me. Could well be my failing eyesight 😉

Part of it is comparing a cad drawing to a mock-up with some wood. Need to see a finished unit and a decent photo to really compare.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> They look identical to me. Could well be my failing eyesight 😉
> 
> Part of it is comparing a cad drawing to a mock-up with some wood. Need to see a finished unit and a decent photo to really compare.


 I don't care about wood - it's not practical! I just want that spider long wands 😔 My machine will be black so black levers are better 🙋🏻‍♂️


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Now this is beautiful 😻


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> I don't care about wood - it's not practical! I just want that spider long wands 😔 My machine will be black so black levers are better 🙋🏻‍♂️


 yep, as far as i can say near identical...

up then out and down at same time to about the distance of the portafilter handle then down to just below the portafilter angle...

the one you just posted is the vostok that never made production (pump only i believe, no reservoir) - literally identical long spider wands as used in the vostok 2 group...

terrible angle on the vesuvius leva in the pic, and missing detail as CAD e.g. no lines for the side panels etc


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

if I want the machine in the video can I have it? Look at the long legs!!! It's a dream ! Vostok-1 is it already out?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

> 2 minutes ago, MW11 said:


 see above - its the vostok single group that never made real world - i think because it is commercial/plumb only.

you should look at the vostok 2 group which is very similar design - @Jony has one, and i think @Holonomic converted their evo-leva to order that as well...


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> see above - its the vostok single group that never made real world - i think because it is commercial/plumb only.
> 
> you should look at the vostok 2 group which is very similar design - @Jony has one, and i think @Holonomic converted their evo-leva to order that as well...


 I don't have the space 😅 but Italians have taste 🙋🏻‍♂️ Their designs are beautiful tbh!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

as a separate update - just got a reply from @Paolo_Cortese re. second batch - he is waiting on a supplier for the display - so i would guess this means some delays..


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> as a separate update - just got a reply from @Paolo_Cortese re. second batch - he is waiting on a supplier for the display - so i would guess this means some delays..


 I curse you! 😡 
i should've been on the first batch 🥲


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> I curse you! 😡
> i should've been on the first batch 🥲


 I'm in the second batch as well...

To be fair Paolo did say mid to end of June before. Hopefully niggles like firmware should mean less delays overall.

Fingers crossed...


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

danielpugh said:


> see above - its the vostok single group that never made real world - i think because it is commercial/plumb only.
> 
> you should look at the vostok 2 group which is very similar design - @Jony has one, and i think @Holonomic converted their evo-leva to order that as well...


 Yup, heard back from Paolo today and it is being posted tomorrow. Unfortunately our new kitchen has been delayed so may not be able to set it up for some time!

(May make a temporary area for it using bits of the old kitchen!)

Looks forward to its arrival I must say  the reason for me switching to the 2 group was mainly for the aesthetics, I plannee on plumbing it in so didn't need the reservoir. I was flip flopping between this, a GS3 and a decent. Settled on the vostok, hopefully I shall not be disappointed 

I had planned on getting a tor tamper but forgot to order it... hmmm may need to buy a cheap one asap


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Use the stock one, it does its job until I Can be bothered to order it.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Jony said:


> Use the stock one, it does its job until I Can be bothered to order it.


 Ah great, wasn't sure if it came with one or not  I shall hold off for now as I have definitely over spent already 

I have an osmio ht+ ready to go in also!

Anyone know how long it takes for a pallet delivery from Europe to the UK these days?


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Good man👍😎


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Ah great, wasn't sure if it came with one or not  I shall hold off for now as I have definitely over spent already
> 
> I have an osmio ht+ ready to go in also!


 Very jealous - would love an osmio HT (and a Vostok 2g). Maybe if I dig a hole out of a wall to make an alcove (basically never). Hoping to get a drainage hole (bodge initially - literally a hole in wall + pipe + silicone).

The IMS tamper is better than I first thought. Have done a bit more testing with baskets and 18g. Thinking custom bravo/leveller just out of curiousity at some point.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Holonomic probably Wednesday to Thursday.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

danielpugh said:


> Very jealous - would love an osmio HT (and a Vostok 2g). Maybe if I dig a hole out of a wall to make an alcove (basically never). Hoping to get a drainage hole (bodge initially - literally a hole in wall + pipe + silicone).
> 
> The IMS tamper is better than I first thought. Have done a bit more testing with baskets and 18g. Thinking custom bravo/leveller just out of curiousity at some point.


 I am currently pondering on how to go about plumping this in, we are going to be fitting a new kitchen soon so have a few options, I will probably end up just having a hole in the work surface towards the back of the counter with both drain and inlet hoses... but I am also thinking of removing the plaster/recessing out the wall so it can run down the back of the worktop without needing to damage the counter top (useful if we move or relocate the coffee machine)... just not sure how that would work with the drain hole if it goes above the drip tray line, I think ideally the drain should go straight down - atleast to begin with? We shall see/have a play once it arrives!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Holonomic said:


> I am currently pondering on how to go about plumping this in, we are going to be fitting a new kitchen soon so have a few options, I will probably end up just having a hole in the work surface towards the back of the counter with both drain and inlet hoses... but I am also thinking of removing the plaster/recessing out the wall so it can run down the back of the worktop without needing to damage the counter top (useful if we move or relocate the coffee machine)... just not sure how that would work with the drain hole if it goes above the drip tray line, I think ideally the drain should go straight down - atleast to begin with? We shall see/have a play once it arrives!


 With a new kitchen, if I were you, I will fix an ideal place and put a concealed in-wall pipe works. This will be the best solution for me. This will give a clean and a tidy worktop. I will further assume that the unit will be positioned closer to the sink. Moving the machine in future will not be an option, I am afraid. You don't want an unused-cum-beautiful pipe works spoiling the kitchen's aesthetics, do you ? 😃 You also don't want to create another pipe trail in the future. So, please take your time, fix a place and be done with it. Btw, please post some pictures.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I have a theoretical question regarding the flow from the gear pump in pi.

If the pump is a max 4 bar fluid-o-tech gear pump, it has a min flow of 40l/h at 4 bar and a max flow of 160l/h at 0 bar.

If you transform the values for average ml/s you get something like :

~11g/s at 4 bar

~44g/s at 0 bar

My question now, the machine will be capable of pushing higher flow in pi if the pressure is low? A linea/gs3 can push 10-12 g/s in preinfusion, a Decent can only 8g/s and a Bianca depending on the paddle setting can push up to 7-8g/s (more but then you cannot close the flow to 0g/s).

If the above is true and i'm not missing a part inside the system that will influence the flow, then it means if you set a high pressure point for preinfusion the ending flow/maintaining flow will be lower and if you set a 2bar preinfusion the flow/maintaining flow will be bigger?

I am talking about 20 sec+ preinfusions for example.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> I have a theoretical question regarding the flow from the gear pump in pi.
> 
> If the pump is a max 4 bar fluid-o-tech gear pump, it has a min flow of 40l/h at 4 bar and a max flow of 160l/h at 0 bar.
> 
> ...


 One for @DavecUKas he was involved in pump choice. Seen a few notes about on the Tapatalk forum. Thought I saw a max of 6bar...


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Preinfusion above a certain pressure point is pretty much useless. Even on the decent now the migration is towards a 3 bar preinfusion point in most cases. The only one where preinfusion is higher is a blooming type of shot where the pressure goes to 5-6 bar max, and then declines to 1-2 bar and then you extract. But this extraction type is required for unimodal grinders and will never be possible on vostok:

a. total duration of the shot is between 15-22 sec for a 1-3 ratio (good luck on that with vostok)

b. max pressure for unimodal burrs is 6 bar in brew (vostok is 10-11 bar and if you remove a spring 7 bar but you dont know what happens with the shot ratio).

c. after pumping water to reach the 5-6 bar in preinfusion you need to cut the water flow to 0 and let the pressure drop by it's own cause of puck erosion/water making it towards the cup/drips on at the basket bottom.

We all try to mimic in most cases levers with the Decent, have a look here:

https://visualizer.coffee/shots/e19f18ae-6cec-4eec-9e9f-f69d7274de31

As for the pump, it might be a custom made model for ACS but it should be similar to this:

https://www.fluidotech.it/en/products/technologies/external-gear-pumps/dgd09-series/


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> With a new kitchen, if I were you, I will fix an ideal place and put a concealed in-wall pipe works. This will be the best solution for me. This will give a clean and a tidy worktop. I will further assume that the unit will be positioned closer to the sink. Moving the machine in future will not be an option, I am afraid. You don't want an unused-cum-beautiful pipe works spoiling the kitchen's aesthetics, do you ? 😃 You also don't want to create another pipe trail in the future. So, please take your time, fix a place and be done with it. Btw, please post some pictures.


 The comment about moving the machine only would come into effect if a) we moved or b) we extended onto the back of the kitchen, which would probably become its new home!
I have not plumbed a machine in before, so I am not 100% certain - the water inlet I could easily be concealed in the wall however it is the drain pipe which I am dubious on... surely this should run straight down/direct route to the drain otherwise I can see build up happening, if I need to do this with the drain then I might as well just route the inlet the same way as I will have to bore a hole in the worktop for the drain?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> Preinfusion above a certain pressure point is pretty much useless. Even on the decent now the migration is towards a 3 bar preinfusion point in most cases. The only one where preinfusion is higher is a blooming type of shot where the pressure goes to 5-6 bar max, and then declines to 1-2 bar and then you extract. But this extraction type is required for unimodal grinders and will never be possible on vostok:
> 
> a. total duration of the shot is between 15-22 sec for a 1-3 ratio (good luck on that with vostok)
> 
> ...


 Thanks for that info. Personally im unlikely to be playing around with pre-infusion pressure too much.

I am curious about what grinders will work well (or not) with this lever - specifically in relation to larger flats.

I am pretty sure that is the gear pump that @DavecUK linked to on tapatalk. Suspect the confusion is that it has two figures listed for pressure - both 4bar (differential) and 6bar (static). I'm not an expert on different pressure types, but assume the lower is the relevant one.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> The comment about moving the machine only would come into effect if a) we moved or b) we extended onto the back of the kitchen, which would probably become its new home!
> I have not plumbed a machine in before, so I am not 100% certain - the water inlet I could easily be concealed in the wall however it is the drain pipe which I am dubious on... surely this should run straight down/direct route to the drain otherwise I can see build up happening, if I need to do this with the drain then I might as well just route the inlet the same way as I will have to bore a hole in the worktop for the drain?


 I'm in the middle of getting the drainage added. I think *ideally* the drain pipe goes straight down. I think the majority (including me) don't have this as an option. I noticed on the decent video they recommend straight down, but also provide a pre-formed L-pipe to take waste to the rear of the machine. I am counting/relying on it being fine with perhaps some wiggling. Hoping to have the pipe finally installed next month so can feed back more then..


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Denis S said:


> I have a theoretical question regarding the flow from the gear pump in pi.
> 
> If the pump is a max 4 bar fluid-o-tech gear pump, it has a min flow of 40l/h at 4 bar and a max flow of 160l/h at 0 bar.
> 
> ...


 I must be missing something but at 0 bar what would the driving force be?


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Holonomic said:


> The comment about moving the machine only would come into effect if a) we moved or b) we extended onto the back of the kitchen, which would probably become its new home!
> I have not plumbed a machine in before, so I am not 100% certain - the water inlet I could easily be concealed in the wall however it is the drain pipe which I am dubious on... surely this should run straight down/direct route to the drain otherwise I can see build up happening, if I need to do this with the drain then I might as well just route the inlet the same way as I will have to bore a hole in the worktop for the drain?


 About the drain...

I have read that spring levers, especially the ones with professional groups, are recommend to sit them higher in the countertops to help with the lever strength. Maybe an option is to do it this ways and take advantage of it to conceal a drain pipe from below to the wall with the sufficient slope. You can use the 'extra' below space for a nice custome made knocking box or storage of some sort also.

Just an idea.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh The pump was chosen to give a high flow rate for filling the group in a few seconds....before it starts to build pressure. If I'm honest I don't really understand a lot of what @Denis S is saying... All too much for me. I was going to reply and then realised it's best people get their machines and try it for themselves.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh The pump was chosen to give a high flow rate for filling the group in a few seconds....before it starts to build pressure. If I'm honest I don't really understand a lot of what @Denis S is saying... All too much for me. I was going to reply and then realised it's best people get their machines and try it for themselves.


 i am also struggling to understand what @Denis S is asking or trying to ascertain.



> My question now, the machine will be capable of pushing higher flow in pi if the pressure is low? A linea/gs3 can push 10-12 g/s in preinfusion, a Decent can only 8g/s and a Bianca depending on the paddle setting can push up to 7-8g/s (more but then you cannot close the flow to 0g/s).
> 
> If the above is true and i'm not missing a part inside the system that will influence the flow, then it means if you set a high pressure point for preinfusion the ending flow/maintaining flow will be lower and if you set a 2bar preinfusion the flow/maintaining flow will be bigger?


 So perhaps best to detail how the machine works, whilst also noting that " The pump was chosen to give a high flow rate for filling the group in a few seconds" which would seem to answer the question positively - "the machine will be capable of pushing higher flow in pi if the pressure is low?"...

If plumbed then the mains water feeds straight into the reservoir (presumably a fill-level cut-off at whatever the mains pressure).

The pump is the one you linked. It pumps from the reservoir (no connection from mains through pump). The pump was chosen to provide high flow at lower pressure as confirmed by @DavecUK.

The bit i am less sure of but remember from the other forum is that a pressurestat is used to mechanically set the max pressure for the pump (?), more details here - https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s290.html.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> The bit i am less sure of but remember from the other forum is that a pressurestat is used to mechanically set the max pressure for the pump (?), more details here - https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430-s290.html.


 The pump fills the group and a pressure stat mounted inside the machine right near the top can be adjusted to give whatever preinfusion pressure you desire. You can't adjust it dynamically during the shot, but really there's no value in that...it's best to set it how you like it, then leave it alone. It's a lever machine, not a pumped machine and it does what it does well.

You can do far more with the shot by:



retarding the lever if you want for shot profiling (using the gauge of course). Another big plus of having the gauge, is you don't need to use any scales under the group....a real bonus when using a lever machine.


Managing temperature. e.g. setting up for flat, rising, or declining temperatures. That would be done by adjusting the group and boiler PIDs, especially observing how the group PID temp changes over time.


The rapid response to temperature changes by the group...if it can warm up from cold in 16m as opposed to the usual 45m+, then it responds to a change made equally rapidly.


You can't reproduce what you don't know....and you can't adjust what you don't know. It would be like trying to reach a destination in a car whilst wearing a blindfold....one of the strengths of the Evo, is feedback...plus the dual boiler setup, separating steaming and brewing. Well 3 boilers if you count the group cartridges.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Just heard from Paolo my machines will ship on Monday.

Anyone else received their heads up email?


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Just heard from Paolo my machines will ship on Monday.
> 
> Anyone else received their heads up email?


 Your special 😎


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> Really guys? Let me simplify it for you:
> 
> when you flush the grouphead with no portafilter locked, what is the average flow delivered by the pump?
> 
> put a scale under, flush for 10 or 20 sec, divide it and find out the average ml (g)/s.


 Don't take this the wrong way, but your last post was somewhat clearer than the previous ones 😉

@The Systemic Kidis the first person to announce despatch of the machine. No-one else has one yet... Happy to do that when it arrives (for me, over a month)...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

danielpugh said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, but your last post was somewhat clearer than the previous ones 😉
> 
> @The Systemic Kidis the first person to announce despatch of the machine. No-one else has one yet... Happy to do that when it arrives (for me, over a month)...


 Patricks was not a dispatch notice. It was to confirm the details of where the machines are to go to. They will be dispatched on Monday I believe


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Patricks was not a dispatch notice. It was to confirm the details of where the machines are to go to. They will be dispatched on Monday I believe


 Sounds like it, but fantastic news as far as I'm concerned either way!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> Sounds like it, but fantastic news as far as I'm concerned either way!


 Even I'm excited and I'm not getting one. 😁


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

So you got offended cause I asked what is the max flow the gear pump gives while flushing? Okay then, best luck. We are going to talk where to install the machine then, cause that seems a more important and valuable information.

I'll find out myself after getting it. Thanks.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Denis S said:


> I have a theoretical question regarding the flow from the gear pump in pi.
> 
> If the pump is a max 4 bar fluid-o-tech gear pump, it has a min flow of 40l/h at 4 bar and a max flow of 160l/h at 0 bar.
> 
> ...


 You can close the flow on a Bianca to 0 g


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@Mrboots2u please read again the sentence.

If you want to keep the ability to close the paddle and get 0 flow you must calibrate into a certain range. Yes you can calibrate to have 0 flow to one side, and 6-7-8g/s to another side.

My point is that a rotary pump can go much higher than 6-8g/s but if you want it you will loose the 0g/s point cause of the wood paddle construction on the Bianca hitting the panel. You could do a mod if wanted to but that's not the point.

Flow in preinfusion is an important parameter, it influences how fine or coarse you grind, and how the shot will taste and behave in brew.

Vibratory pump machines are limited to 6-8g/s max flow at 0 bar, and while going up in pressure the efficiency of the pump goes down a lot. So my question regarding flow to the Vostok was because of that, cause I never had a gear pump and do not know what is the flow it can deliver during preinfusion. Some people find my questions weird it seems, but because I come from a Decent machine, we talk all day in numbers, so excuse me if you find me weird, questions like this are normal.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> So you got offended cause I asked what is the max flow the gear pump gives while flushing? Okay then, best luck. We are going to talk where to install the machine then, cause that seems a more important and valuable information.
> 
> I'll find out myself after getting it. Thanks.


 Not sure if it's me you are talking to. If you are, I'm not offended, and not trying to offend. Apologies if it came across that way. I just didn't understand what you were asking for until you explained. I just don't have the machine so can't test until it arrives.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Denis S said:


> So you got offended cause I asked what is the max flow the gear pump gives while flushing? Okay then, best luck. We are going to talk where to install the machine then, cause that seems a more important and valuable information.
> 
> I'll find out myself after getting it. Thanks.


 Well, Feng Shui it's important. You need a good flow at home also.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S The flow rate of the pump will be affected by pipe bore, length the valves and hole into the group, plus a few other resistance factors as well as the inlet tube bore. It's approximately 140l per hour on the Frankenstein test bed. Inside mine I do have some extra pipework, gauges and a pressure regulator, which production machines won't have, and it all doesn't help.

Production machines may be a little different.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Ok. I didn't understand anything but that's why I didn't even think about decent! I just want great espresso without worrying about data and graphs. I can't wait to get my machine 🤕 LSM is famous for thick body that no other lever machine can deliver 🤤

I'll set pre infusion to 2.5 and forget about it. My focus would be on grind, wdt and tamping.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

I`ve been refreshing my email every 15 minutes since yesterday, am I the only one or am I going crazy !?

Patience is something that I struggle with.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Looking forward to seeing these in the wild. Love the look of the LSM group but all my accessories are based around 58mm so the thought of doubling up was a step too far. I know there was a counter balance weight added to stop tipping but not sure what the final nett weight is. I've got a Vesuvius, similar case, and that's no lightweight as it is. My L1 has a peak pressure in the region of 7 bar and would be interesting to seeing the pressure the two springs reach


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> Looking forward to seeing these in the wild. Love the look of the LSM group but all my accessories are based around 58mm so the thought of doubling up was a step too far. I know there was a counter balance weight added to stop tipping but not sure what the final nett weight is. I've got a Vesuvius, similar case, and that's no lightweight as it is. My L1 has a peak pressure in the region of 7 bar and would be interesting to seeing the pressure the two springs reach


 The two springs can reach 11 bar when new, but it's not just the peak, it's the profile and duration that works differently, it's how the groups were designed to work. The addition of the gauge allows profiling and of course negates the need for scales once you have worked out the pressure at which a certain weight of coffee is extracted.

The counterbalance weight is indeed added to stop tipping....if the Evo used a single spring, it would be unnecessary, but in the professional configuration the pull force is such that the machine would either be very long....or use a weight internally. I would imagine the final weight will be 35Kg+, but that's just a guess.

I too am very much looking forward to seeing how people get on with the machine.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Hello! Give me Napoli!!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

😂


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Sooo.... DHL just dropped off my 2 group vostok 

It is very nice! It is going to take some time for me to get around installing it as our new kitchen has had a slight set back in time frame which is a shame.

I also forgot to inform the better half that I switched from the 1 group to the 2 group, she isn't very happy


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

She's heavy.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Holonomic said:


> I also forgot to inform the better half that I switched from the 1 group to the 2 group, she isn't very happy


 so which one is she then?


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Forgive the bad pictures, not set up ofcourse and just opened it up in the hallway (also being "renovated" currently).

But gives you an idea, this thing is beautiful! And yes, she is very heavy!

Currently debating on if a standard height counter will be "OK" with the lever or if I should raise it up/make a plinth for it to sit on!

I love the fact the drip tray slopes upwards at the back to act as a mirror for the user to see the shot coming out!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Veritable beast.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Yup, shes a beauty, a big machine...but if you have the space.

If you're tall, then definitely mount it higher if you can.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Congrats @Holonomicon the beautiful machine! Enjoy 👍🏻


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Holonomic said:


> Sooo.... DHL just dropped off my 2 group vostok
> 
> It is very nice! It is going to take some time for me to get around installing it as our new kitchen has had a slight set back in time frame which is a shame.
> 
> I also forgot to inform the better half that I switched from the 1 group to the 2 group, she isn't very happy


 Congratulations! It looks great.

Hiding a group is a border line criminal offence 😀.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Holonomic said:


> Forgive the bad pictures, not set up ofcourse and just opened it up in the hallway (also being "renovated" currently).
> 
> But gives you an idea, this thing is beautiful! And yes, she is very heavy!
> 
> ...


 Hang on a minute! We have gone way off topic. I object. Is it really hard to read the thread title? "New 1 group lever from ACS - Vostok 1 group"?

It even says it twice&#8230; "1 group". 😂😂😂😂😂😂

only joking.😉 Amazing machine. Is it brand new or was it Jony's?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Holonomic Congratulations! She looks stunning. Enjoy some great coffee.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Hang on a minute! We have gone way off topic. I object. Is it really hard to read the thread title? "New 1 group lever from ACS - Vostok 1 group"?
> 
> It even says it twice&#8230; "1 group". 😂😂😂😂😂😂
> 
> only joking.😉 Amazing machine. Is it brand new or was it Jony's?


 Hehe, I know, I know - just couldn't resist sharing it in this thread 

It is a new one, I believe Jony still has his.

It really is beautiful - and heavy, if it was not so heavy I would possibly set it up while waiting for the new kitchen to be fitted but I think it would be wise to wait until the kitchen it ready


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Indeed I do.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, I received a note from DHL just now in Italian.......does not appear to have any info in it but it must be system generated, so........woo hoo!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Well, I received a note from DHL just now in Italian.......does not appear to have any info in it but it must be system generated, so........woo hoo!


 Excellent news!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Well, I received a note from DHL just now in Italian.......does not appear to have any info in it but it must be system generated, so........woo hoo!


 Looking forward to a no nonsense review, and I don't mean daves is not, just from our point of view. 👍


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> Well, I received a note from DHL just now in Italian.......does not appear to have any info in it but it must be system generated, so........woo hoo!


 Awesome mate! Looking forward to photos, reviews,&#8230;.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Waybill heads up email from DHL arrived. Just paid the customs bill so delivery shouldn't be long.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

I was told (by DHL) that my delivery (2 group) would be here on Tuesday next week, arrived yesterday so hopefully the wait will be shorter than you think! I would recommend paying the import duty ASAP to avoid any delays.

Trying to figure a way to get the Vostok temporarily set up  @Jony how awkward is it to drain the boiler(s) - I do not fancy lifting this thing with the boilers full!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Holonomic Did they bring it to the house on a pallet bogey and did they just dump it for you to sort out or did they help you at all? Duty paid within 90 seconds of getting the email!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well I have a external pump so super easy, just open the valves slowly for me, needs two people to lift, just remove the ground head way easier.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> @Holonomic Did they bring it to the house on a pallet bogey and did they just dump it for you to sort out or did they help you at all? Duty paid within 90 seconds of getting the email!


 I can't fault DHL in the slightest, the driver called me 10 minutes away (I was already aware as I got a text in the AM). He bought it to me on a pallet truck (yes, the machine was on a pallet), he bought it to the front door and offered to carry it in with me... I declined the offer for him to move it to the kitchen but did take him up on the offer to lift it into the house 

Jony, with no external pump.. I think it may be a none starter for me... shame as I have a two month wait now on the kitchen!!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I did say get one😁


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

A 2 group machine for the home...they look small in photos, but I sometimes think you guys must be crazier than me 🤣


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> A 2 group machine for the home...they look small in photos, but I sometimes think you guys must be crazier than me 🤣


 hehe, I know  It is probably too much - but it just looked so nice!

I am thinking of setting it up this week/next week on a temporary counter top, yes I will need to drain the boilers etc to move it in a month but not sure if I can wait that long to be able to try her out!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Mine was sat on the floor unused for nearly 6 months. Was actually longer.
Your lucky you got a 2 naked PF he only ever give me one I paid for 2. He did send extra of the others maybe confused deal with it when I'm set up again because I moved.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Double check all the groups and springs and clips.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Fresh from official ACS Instagram account:

/monthly_2021_06/cdc79c6d-ea7e-4317-b21d-24a00f2a723f.mp4.6eefe529e7fb8c966cef9138dba19eba.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment cdc79c6d-ea7e-4317-b21d-24a00f2a723f.mp4


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

msmk0 said:


> Fresh from official ACS Instagram account:
> 
> View attachment 57927


 Awesome!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

And delivery later this week too👍


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

I look forward to your reports. If I were going to specify the features on a new lever machine for my home, it would be exactly like the machine you're all waiting for.

Matt


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> And delivery later this week too👍


 Scrub that. Heads up from DHL - both my machines are arriving today.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Woohoo - photos of the first machine in the wild are pending!!!!???


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Scrub that. Heads up from DHL - both my machines are arriving today.


 Both? Like in a "two strokes of luck"? 😀

The machine looks immaculate. Looking forward to your scrutinised review.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Elephantoplasty said:


> Woohoo - photos of the first machine in the wild are pending!!!!???


 Actually that's probably completely true...if Patrick posts before anyone else...his will be the first photos of a production Vesuvius Evo Leva by a customer!

Then there will be two polished objects in the coffeeverse...one of them being shiny new Evo Levers, the other, something small and ...well, small.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> other, something small and ...well, small.


 please don't tell me, they are releasing a single dose grinder. My family may savage me if I ask for an electric grinder 🤣


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> please don't tell me, they are releasing a single dose grinder. My family may savage me if I ask for an electric grinder 🤣


 No, it's something small and not great, nothing from ACS


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

As the owner of a Vesuvius I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison. I know they are very different machines but I'd love to see a comparison "in the cup" of a lever profile on the Vesuvius and an actual pull on the Vostock! Has anyone who owns a Vesuvius ordered a Vostock?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yet to fully unbox


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

The Evos have landed. DHL delivery guy helped lift this one into the kitchen so I can unpack later.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Tell you what, it is bloody heavy! Reminded me of dead lift days in the gym!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> As the owner of a Vesuvius I'd love to see a side-by-side comparison. I know they are very different machines but I'd love to see a comparison "in the cup" of a lever profile on the Vesuvius and an actual pull on the Vostock! Has anyone who owns a Vesuvius ordered a Vostock?


 I own the test bed EVO and a Vesuvius I have not used the Vesuvius since October 2019. I can say the Vesuvius shots were very good...the test bed ones are...remarkable. Lets see what real people have to say though...😁


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> I have a Vesuvius and an early Londinium 1 and the Vesuvius case is incredibly solid. Probably just the connection to the drip tray is where it might need strengthening as stress on this area isn't a thing on an E61. An exciting project. I'm telling myself that it will be too heavy to carry to use at Farmers Markets in order to save my back - and my wallet!


 How do the shots compare? If you set the V to a lever profile, do you end up with the same result in the cup as a shot from the L?

(Guess who is trying to decide whether to add a lever machine to his stable or simply stick with the Vesuvius)


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Evo really well packaged in a sturdy plywood surround. Easy to unpack and install on the coffee station.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> How do the shots compare? If you set the V to a lever profile, do you end up with the same result in the cup as a shot from the L?
> 
> (Guess who is trying to decide whether to add a lever machine to his stable or simply stick with the Vesuvius)


 Cant say about the Evo but with more traditional spring levers there was always the factor of the slight decline in temperate across the shot that a Machine like the V couldn't do.

Now whether you can actually taste the difference this makes across all the other variables in a shot is debatable.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@GrahamSPhillips

Temp drop example for an old L1 variant


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Evo really well packaged in a sturdy plywood surround. Easy to unpack and install on the coffee station.
> 
> View attachment 57936
> 
> ...


 That looks very nice indeed - am suitably (over)excited!

could i ask you to check the maximum height to the top of the lever please?

I'm paranoid/worried that might be slightly too big for the space i have ready for it, also would be useful to know the final hights from drip tray to bottom of portafilter to see how much they eeked out. Thanks in advance!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Cant say about the Evo but with more traditional spring levers there was always the factor of the slight decline in temperate across the shot that a Machine like the V couldn't do.
> 
> Now whether you can actually taste the difference this makes across all the other variables in a shot is debatable.


 You can go for flat, rising (with a ceiling) or declining (with a floor). Repeatable and within limits of shot time, physics limitations of heat loss the amount of decline (or rise) can be set.

@The Systemic KidIt looks the dogs danglies, in fact, better 🤣


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Hernia inducing....you're not posting in the other thread then? 🤣


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Now it strikes me that a *few other people may already have their machines and no user guide.*...dfk and Systemic already have a draft copy. So here is a work in progress draft of the user guide, for anyone else who has the machine.

https://sway.office.com/pQLa02FN4KX86gkG?ref=Link


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

​
​
Panama Geisha​
21grms > 42grms​
Strawberry ripple​


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tried single and double baskets. Dialled in my EKs eventually for the double which is more like a triple basket. Dosed 21grms before was happy with the result. Will up the PI which is currently set at 1.5bar and try it nearer 3bar. Plenty of room for tweaking and fine tuning.

Biggie for me is Evo likes lighter roasts as well.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

It steams like a demon as well.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

danielpugh said:


> could i ask you to check the maximum height to the top of the lever please?


77cm👍​
​


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> 77cm👍​
> ​


 Perfick! Thanks


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

First impressions. Evo oozes quality.

Beautifully built with clean lines, attention to detail and pleasing on the eye. Water tank is accessed by an opening side panel so the top of the machine can be used as a cup warmer without having to move cups to refill the water tank.

Rock solid when you cock the lever - remember - it's a double spring. Body doesn't flex either. Paolo has done a great job ensuring the Evo is stable in operation. Addition of a group pressure gauge provides so much feedback.

With the group being heated via elements rather than circulating water and independent control of brew boiler water temp, there is a lot to explore in terms of tweaking for personal preferences and in my case for lighter roasts.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Greetings, I woke up to a notification that the machine had landed at the local depot, at 06.43, so, I waited for a dispatch email, and by 9.20 had itchy feet. Rang the local depot to be told that they had not unpacked the lorry it came on yet, but I was welcome to come and get it. A few expletives later and they agreed they would get it out to me later today! A wagon turned up with no tailgate lift, or bogey and the driver sheepishly asked if I could help. The machine is bolted into a wooden case that in turn is bolted to a pallet. One of the shock absorbing feet was missing so the whole thing tilted over and I thought it had been dropped. We had to carry it about 35 yards into the house and I set about dismantling it.
You unscrew the lid, then undo the 4 clips holding the case to the pallet. The case lifts off and you can then nearly fold it flat due to its hingeing system. I then found some under floor insulation like Styrofoam with no give, and tipped the machine onto it giving me access to the underneath. Remove 4 wing nuts, pull the pallet away, then assemble the feet and screw in. I then as faced with a dilemma of how to get it from the floor to the bench. I did a very small test lift and thought, go for it, so in one go lifted it from floor to bench. Having suffered two cardiac arrests two years ago, perhaps discretion should have been the better part of valour, but my heart ruled my head!
So, once on the bench, laser tape removed, positioned correctly, water tank filled to the brim and turn her on. The initial run of the pump did not last long so that showed that at least the boilers had been tested properly! I had hoped to watch her warm up but that was not the case so I really have no idea how long it took! Anyway, first job was to pull some water through. Best intentions were 7 to 8 litres, reality about 5! I had to go out and wanted a coffee. I used some beans that were weeks old, guessing the grind setting, then trying to remember everything Dave had said!! The baskets are enormous and with 18 gms in it barely comes to halfway. The dosing cup I bought does not fit, so I used the excellent dosing ring that my good friend Les, @Norvin made for me (and it works a treat with the Niche cup). Quick tamp. I set my cup on scales and dropped the lever. @DavecUK had wound me up, and I would say the force required to pull down the lever is a lot more substantial than a machine with a single spring, but to someone of my size it was not an issue. I do not know how say a 5 foot 4 inch person would manage. If I have any coming round, I will ask them to have a shot. Anyway, no flex at all that I could detect! When you cock the lever, the gear pump kicked in with 2 short cycles and the manometer pressure went to about 2.5. If I tilt my head down my specs fall off so I cannot be more accurate than that!. First drips came through (grind needed coarsened a little) then set the lever away. By the time the output was about 35 gms, the manometer was showing approximately 7 bar which I think Dave said was right.
I am not going to bang on about how great the shot was. I have only pulled two shots so far and as I play around with that will post back more. Happy to answer any questions!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Biggie for me is Evo likes lighter roasts as well.


 Am so pleased to hear about the lighter roasts. Awesome quick review and thanks for sharing first impressions.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Am so pleased to hear about the lighter roasts. Awesome quick review and thanks for sharing first impressions.


 Way to go yet to really test out what the Evo is capable of. Tweaking the infinite number of options - brew boiler temp and group element heater temp and seeing how that plays out in the cup. Not to mention the options to play with profile pressures made possible by the group pressure gauge. Seems a bit overwhelming, choice-wise. Will be great when other Evo owners start posting their experiences.


----------



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

It looks huge 😎, hope all is good.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@The Systemic Kid, @dfk41

1: Thanks to @DavecUK's meticulous design and engineering review, Paolo and his team have done a great job with this beast. Although they would have tested the machine thoroughly inside out, did you guys open up the top, and did a quick check of internals for any unexpected leaks, hiss sound, checking if the service boiler valve auto seals when you first drew some water off the hot water top, &#8230;. please ?

If yes, it will be good to list them here for the benefit of other owners and future owners.

I am happy to help update the doc and post fresh, as I have an O365 subscriptions. Not sure, these are required in this case. These may be irrelevant here.

Thanks and looking forward to more photos and reviews.

2: What kind of pound pressure did you have to apply when the double spring lever was cocked as "significant pressure" was relative to a single lever?

3: What are your typical End of Day daily, weekly and monthly plans please ? Like other machines, I am not sure this also requires some backflush ?

Thanks!


----------



## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Many thanks for the quick reviews! I am very much looking forward to some videos as well. :classic_biggrin:


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> 2: What kind of pound pressure did you have to apply when the double spring lever was cocked as "significant pressure" was relative to a single lever?
> 
> 3: What are your typical EoD daily, weekly and monthly plans please ? Like other machines, I am sure this also requires some backflush ?


 Was expecting significantly more effort to cock the lever but this isn't the case. There's a bit more resistance at the top of the pull. Perhaps the most noticeable difference between the Evo's double spring and a single on is, with the Evo, when you begin to pull the effort is even throughout the lever's travel if that makes any sense.

Don't know what EoD is??

As far as I know, there is no backflushing necessary as, with levers, no solenoid.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Going to take a peak inside the Evo tomorrow and will post some pics. Going to increase the PI pressure to 3 bar and use that as a benchmark for the time being.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I nearly forgot! Mine came with a box of accessories that I have not yet gone through but from memory's spare steam tips, seals and bits and pieces, but also a bar towel from ACS. This one is soft and I think I could use it without fear of scratching the highly polished stainless steel!

IOn a lever, you generally have no need to backlash as there is no mechanism to suck the shot back into the group. I will try the tamper that came with it as the one I bought is slightly too small for the standard basket. Once you understand the basis of the display panel it is easy to change the settings. Did I mention the steaming power! Immense is the only word!


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Great to see the first batch is arriving with their new owners - I must say the fact I still have the 2 group in her crate makes me sad and jealous of the water tank (and the fact 1 man could lift it up!).

The machine truly looks beautiful! Looking forward to hearing more about how you all get on with it as I shall be taking people advise on and applying it to the 2 group 



DavecUK said:


> A 2 group machine for the home...they look small in photos, but I sometimes think you guys must be crazier than me 🤣


 @DavecUK I think you are slightly responsible for my crazy purchase (and @Jony)


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

No worries glad we could help, Dave spends our money blame dave alright!!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Jony Thing is though Jony, the money that we owners spent, was circa £2400 including air freight, customes and delivery charges, 3 portafilters, a host of spares and a packing case that could double up as a coffin! So, it makes you ask, why pay more than that when the machine offers such flexibility and the ability to alter so many parameters. Makes you wonder!


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Wow, really impressed with all the initial reviews and pictures. It's gorgeous!

Thanks Dave and Paolo, and of course all the ACS team that made this possible!

For the ones who already used the machine, one question... On Dave's videos you can hear the noise ( like an agonising squeak of some poor beast trapped inside the machine) of the pump refilling the boiler during operation. How this has been addressed? Is it quiet?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Geared pump noise isn't grating or particularly loud. Will put up a video tomorrow. Evo doesn't have the pressure-stat thump every two minutes either.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

@dfk41Has the Cremina popped back in your head since the Evo arrived?


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Cant say about the Evo but with more traditional spring levers there was always the factor of the slight decline in temperate across the shot that a Machine like the V couldn't do.
> 
> Now whether you can actually taste the difference this makes across all the other variables in a shot is debatable.


 I suppose this is something Decent users have looked into. Does anyone know?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

you can forget about it. you will never be able to replicate a lever/spring/piston with a pump. You can get close, but there are too many things that matter to make 2 shots the same taste (not only temperature) but also headspace, water distribution, water path, the jigleor size if it has one, and so on.

Londinium profiles on Decent dont taste as Londinium shots, decent can make it to 8g/s in preinfusion, londinium has 20-40g/s in preinfusion.

Some machines have opv, while a spring lever has only one path, into the cup.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

mathof said:


> I suppose this is something Decent users have looked into. Does anyone know?


 There was so someone who went from a Decent to a La San Marco lever, but if memory serves me right went for the Izzo rather than ACS.

@TomR me thinks?


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Tell you what, it is bloody heavy! Reminded me of dead lift days in the gym!
> 
> View attachment 57935


 You can't remember dead lift days in the gym🤣. Any way I thought you had given up buying expensive toys  :exit:


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There was so someone who went from a Decent to a La San Marco lever, but if memory serves me right went for the Izzo rather than ACS.
> 
> @TomR me thinks?


 This guy too went from a decent to LR24

https://instagram.com/mikflores?utm_medium=copy_link

Exciting news great info by first men exciting news! Me likey a lot!!

Share recipes dose sizes and taste! Share everything. Will keep drooling 🤤 til I get my machine.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@El carajillo The Vesuvius Evo Leva is no lightweight, it takes some muscles to lift it from the floor to the countertop.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

El carajillo said:


> You can't remember dead lift days in the gym🤣. Any way I thought you had given up buying expensive toys  :exit:


 Luckily, kit was not expensive, at least not when compared with some of the opposition out there!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

SL01 said:


> @dfk41Has the Cremina popped back in your head since the Evo arrived?


 Nope......I often thought about it when I had no machine, and as much as I enjoyed it, it is amateur football compared to premier league!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Luckily, kit was not expensive, at least not when compared with some of the opposition out there!


 You could have spent more than 50% extra, for much, much less.....So I agree, it doesn't seem expensive.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> Nope......I often thought about it when I had no machine, and as mush as I enjoyed it, it is amateur football compared to premier league!


 Bravo!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

@dfk41 my money was very well spent reasonably priced machine and exactly what I wanted.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> Anyway, first job was to pull some water through. Best intentions were 7 to 8 litres, reality about 5!


 Apologies if it's a dumb question...... why pulling through that amount of water?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rusty pie said:


> Apologies if it's a dumb question...... why pulling through that amount of water?


 To flush out the boilers thoroughly.


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> @El carajillo The Vesuvius Evo Leva is no lightweight, it takes some muscles to lift it from the floor to the countertop.


 I did not doubt that in the slightest, it was Daves remembering times way back I was querying


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Luckily, kit was not expensive, at least not when compared with some of the opposition out there!


 Come on Dave admit, you just cannot resist shiny new kit


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

What are the first impressions of stock baskets and tampers on production machines please?

I have a cheap 53 mm tamper, which is probably not sufficient.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> What are the first impressions of stock baskets and tampers on production machines please?
> 
> I have a cheap 53 mm tamper, which is probably not sufficient.


 The double basket is like a bucket - 20grms leaves a third head space. Going for some IMS baskets 14/18 grms and 19/22grms. Tamper is supplied is a standby at best.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pics of internals. Everything inside echoes the exterior - beautifully put together. Separating the electronics as far from the boilers as possible shows the thought that has gone into the design and assembly. Accessing the water tank is via left hand side. I've got 9cm clearance between side of the Evo and the wall and I can still open the catch and tip the tank out easily to refill it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Evo took 15 minutes to reach operating temp from cold this morning.​





​


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pump sound. Tone isn't grating. It's not overly loud or unpleasant but that's subjective.​


----------



## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Anyone making book on how long young Dave keeps this monster machine?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*It's laid out absolutely beautifully inside*...Paolo still using the memory metal vacuum breaker, as he has done on Vesuvius machines for the last 4 years. *Good to finally see La Marzocco starting to use the same vacuum breaker*.

Having the electronics in a separate compartment, full accessible by removing a single side panel is a great idea. Easy maintenance and good for keeping them cool, plus a great heat sink to mount the SSRs on. ventilation slots top and bottom of the Vesuvius case, coupled with boiler insulation, ensure that nothing gets too hot.

Pump well mounted and accessible too.

I think, it's always nice to have a machine that's not just a square metal box, or variation of....without sacrificing anything of performance or design. Quality of the production machines looks to be really good.


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Obnic said:


> Anyone making book on how long young Dave keeps this monster machine?


 Possible evens ??  on second thoughts foregone conclusion :exit:


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Obnic Do you mena me, Old Dave or him, Young Dave!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Obnic said:


> Anyone making book on how long young Dave keeps this monster machine?


 If you're talking about me.....until Frankenstien breaks.... Although he does need a little remedial stitching.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I forgot to time it from startup this morning, but I only switched the brew boiler on. When I eventually set the steam boiler away, it took between 8 and 9 minutes to come to temp, but my area often seems to suffer slightly lower voltage around the 232 mark. I suppose that will make a difference!

This morning breakfast Americano.......I got the shot prep spot on and it poured without leaving a puddle of water on top of the puck. I then went to the Osmio to top it up with hot water and my finger slipped and I topped it up with cold water......but, it still tasted nice!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Took 15 mins from cold to heat up to operating temp this morning. Tried some Rwanda Huye Mountain natural as flat whites. Grind setting on the EKs was the same as used for my previous lever set up. Dosed 19.5grms > 40 grms. PI for 10 secs with shot complete at 35 secs. Bearing in mind beans were light roast - the shot cut through the milk really well with loads of raspberry sweetness. Going to try it as straight espresso later.

For users who like espresso pulled with lighter roasts, the Evo is not going to disappoint.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just made two cappuccinos........standard recipe for me, 18 gms in, about 36 out.......one really handy feature is that when the bar pressure on the manometer drops to 7 bar, you can virtually guaranteed a 2:1 ratio has been reached, doing away with the need for scales. The first cappa I steamed about 4 ounces of milk in less than 10 seconds. The second had about 6 to 7 ounces of milk and took around 12 seconds. Both had the most perfect microfoam, far better than that to which I have been accustomed. Less than one day in and I am already looking forward to the next cuppa!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Anyone know what the final weight ended up being with the counterbalance added. I've seen a figure of 35kg+ mentioned


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Somewhere between 35-40kg. I could pick it up off a table and move it across the room to its resting place. That said, I took the precaution of having an extra Wheetabix yesterday morning. Wouldn't want to try and lift it off the floor. That is definitely a two man job.

DHL driver was really helpful and helped me lift mine off the pallet trolly into the the kitch and on to the kitchen table where I was able to unbox it with ease.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Wouldn't want to try and lift it off the floor. That is definitely a two man job.


 I managed to lift it off the floor on my own.....am I special please!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Sounds like a 2 weetabix with a shredded wheat thrown in job!

Worth the effort though


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> Sounds like a 2 weetabix with a shredded wheat thrown in job!
> 
> Worth the effort though


 Can you imagine it at a farmer's market. Mother says to daughter "get me a Latte dear". "Which coffee stand mummy" says the daughter. "From the man with the hernia support truss of course dear" said the mother.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I managed to lift it off the floor on my own.....am I special please!


 You are kidding, right?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Thanks for your updates, photos and videos. Looking forward to get one and trying to not get to impatient cause i'm in the second batch.

The machine looks really solid, thick and well made. Let me know if someone tried to pull closer to 50g out shots (from 18g).


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

How to control all the separate functions on the Evo Leva


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)




----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@The Systemic Kid TSK helped this neanderthal to set his up on the daily timer, and once you grasp the basic steps, it is a doddle


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> @The Systemic Kid TSK helped this neanderthal to set his up on the daily timer, and once you grasp the basic steps, it is a doddle


 So we need you to grab the machine and @The Systemic Kid to set it up. Ok, I'm taking notes


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S 50g shots are no problem...did one accidentally this morning 🤣


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

So, a couple of questions for you guys with your new toys:



Are the wood handles real wood? I hope so for such a special machine..... My Strega (dual spring) has no problems with a wooden lever handle, so I don't see there should be an issue with a properly-designed wooden lever handle for the Vesuvius Leva.


Sounds like a tamper that is a better fit might be desirable - can someone measure the size of the supplied baskets so I can sort out a well sized tamper in anticipation of receiving my batch 2 machine.


What do you think of the steam and water arms you have selected? I'm yet to make my selection on those.


Thanks!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Handles are wood - lever is phenolic.

Supplied tamper does the job.

Three hole steam tip is a beast - steams like a demon. Will steam enough milk for two flat whites in around 10-15 secs. Produces wonderfully textured micro-foamed milk. Two hole tip might be easier with smaller amounts of milk.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

any vids of lever usage yet?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> Let me know if someone tried to pull closer to 50g out shots (from 18g).


 Just pulled two. 20grms > 49-50grm out using light roast Rwanda Huye Mountain. 15-16 sec PI. Total shot time around 40 secs. Raspberry in spades - no sourness.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

If/when Dave (DFK) does decide to move on. I hope I'm awake enough to benefit...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rob666 said:


> If/when Dave (DFK) does decide to move on. I hope I'm awake enough to benefit...


 That used to be a frequent occurrence! I'm not sure if it will be this time! That machine is stunning!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That used to be a frequent occurrence! I'm not sure if it will be this time! That machine is stunning!


 I'm absolutely certain he won't move it on.....it's too good for that. What else could he get for £2400 that's going to come even close.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I dont know these groups. How come the 4 nuts dont sit flat? Should they have washers or are they not under pressure like a single spring


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> the 4 nuts


 For my own understanding - and maybe others - Which 4 nuts are you referring to? Could you point out on a the picture?


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

These 4 off patricks vid


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Yes those are really important.

I heard the coffee doesn't taste good if they are not perfectly flat.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Thanks

Glad you cleared it up...

Was a Genuine question.

From using actual tools for my job it looks wrong..why i asked


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUKMight it be worth closing this thread and just letting the other run, otherwise things may become fragmented.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@dfk41 - it makes sense to have in one thread, like the Elizabeth and the MaraX threads. However, I'm also curious to understand why the nuts aren't flush against the surface - mainly out of curiosity rather than anything else. Or maybe they became loose in transit and need tightening? Or are just there not to expose the thread of the screw and don't need to be tight?


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Didn't realise it wasn't the main thread 🤦


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Obnic said:


> Anyone making book on how long young Dave keeps this monster machine?


 Two weeks tops🤣


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> I'm absolutely certain he won't move it on.....it's too good for that. What else could he get for £2400 that's going to come even close.


 It's at times like this I miss the sad face emoji as an option instead of just "like".


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> Was a Genuine question.
> 
> From using actual tools for my job it looks wrong..why i asked


 Indeed it is, Jake. As can be seen in the pics, the top part of the group is very slightly sloping so the nut makes contact on one side. As with the Fiorenzato group, there's no water seal between the two halves so the nuts just need to stop the top half of the group from becoming loose.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Perfect.

Thanks for that all i asked.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @DavecUKMight it be worth closing this thread and just letting the other run, otherwise things may become fragmented.


 I can merge them, will do it later


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I chose long wands they look beautiful but is there any disadvantages with them? I see a lot with the shorter wands! 
Paolo did great on the internals. This is so exciting. Keep the info coming guys.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MW11 said:


> I chose long wands they look beautiful but is there any disadvantages with them? I see a lot with the shorter wands!


 Other than size, no disadvantages.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

And as if by magic the two Vesuvius Evo Leva threads have been merged into one... 😉


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Guys, It will be great to see videos of a few espresso shots from the Evo Leva - including long PI of lighter roasts please 😊

Thanks in advance!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee They won't be better than mine...or will they?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUK I have dusted down my trusty camera......just have to find the tripod now......then we will see!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee They won't be better than mine...or will they?


 Master










????


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


>


 I see a spelling mistake. ????


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I see a spelling mistake. ????












????


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi All,

I know that the menu on the machine has the ability to program on and off times, but I have historically automated the power cycling of my machine through a remotely controlled power switch controlled by the home automation.

Hopefully I can continue to do that - much easier to change programming, disable when I am away etc..

In order to do so, the Vesuvius Leva needs to power up to the last operating state when power is reapplied. I.e., if the machine was 'off' (or in standby) when the power supply was turned off, then when power is restored it repowers in the 'off' (or standby) state. And similarly, if the machine was 'on' when the power supply was turned off, then when power is restored it repowers in the same 'on' state, with the same components (groups and boilers) active.

Could someone test whether it behaves in the above fashion when the power at the wall switch is turned off, and then turned back on.

Thanks.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Elephantoplasty said:


> I know that the menu on the machine has the ability to program on and off times, but I have historically automated the power cycling of my machine through a remotely controlled power switch controlled by the home automation.


 Yeah, me too - being able to say "Hey Google, turn on coffee machine" while driving home is precious, albeit less so with the quick warmup. However I'd want that command to turn on the machine rather than restore the state it was at last power down.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

If you only ever power the machine on and off by using the remote switch, then the machine is by definition always in its 'on' state. So restoring power achieves your objective if it restores to its previous state.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Elephantoplasty said:


> If you only ever power the machine on and off by using the remote switch, then the machine is by definition always in its 'on' state. So restoring power achieves your objective if it restores to its previous state.


 I do use my current machine's 'timeout' standby mode in conjunction.

e.g Scheduled morning turn on, then become too busy all day to make a coffee or even remember to remotely turn it off. Machine goes in to standby after 60 mins saving a day of wasted heating.

That's multiplied when I return from being on holiday and only realise when home I forgot to disable the scheduled morning turn on.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

So perhaps we need to understand if you have the option to set a 'power restore state' in the Leva's software.....

This is important stuff! Like Shimon, I use Google to turn on the coffee machine on the way home.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Elephantoplasty said:


> So perhaps we need to understand if you have the option to set a 'power restore state' in the Leva's software.....
> 
> This is important stuff! Like Shimon, I use Google to turn on the coffee machine on the way home.







You have your answer right there.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Excellent - just what we needed to know! Thanks.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

If you guys have the time we would appreciate a photo with your setup (grinder included) because this way people can have a better understanding of size. I know the dimensions are in the manual, and I know how big it is, but it's easier for possible buyers to see it, some of them might have the same grinder.

Thank you


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The machine powers up to the last configuration I believe. If connecting through a Wemo plug or similar, all the plug does is control power to the machine.

I will take some photos and make some vids today


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Have seen it mentioned that the cup height from the drip tray is very slightly less than the L1. Does anyone know the actual height, say from tray to bottom of the lever group. When I measure the Vesuvius it was 150mm, The L1 136mm


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, I put 500 ml of tap water into a jug, and took it to 95c........took about 69 seconds. A little later when my son comes I will do smaller amounts. Also a couple of pics


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I must say, that the drinks am producing are at a level that I have not experienced before with any of the machines I have previously owned. Based on using the machine and more importantly learning the machine, I suspect that even my modest skill sets will produce a constantly excellent drink

If anyone is near NE23, you are welcome to make contact


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> If you guys have the time we would appreciate a photo with your setup (grinder included) because this way people can have a better understanding of size. I know the dimensions are in the manual, and I know how big it is, but it's easier for possible buyers to see it, some of them might have the same grinder.
> 
> Thank you


 Here you go. My Evo sits on a 60cm wide cupboard alongside the EKs. I slid the cupboard out of the alcove in which it sits to give a better picture.






​


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Quick walk round video. Evo Leva is really well built - stainless steel. Because it has a dual boiler set up, the steam/service boiler is exceptionally powerful. Currently fitted with a three hole tip but a two hole tip is also supplied.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

This may have answered before. Sorry, if it is a repeat request.

What's the total height of the machine measured from the worktop (i.e. the leg of the machine) to the top of the lever please ?

Thx


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> This may have answered before. Sorry, if it is a repeat request.
> 
> What's the total height of the machine measured from the worktop (i.e. the leg of the machine) to the top of the lever please ?
> 
> Thx


 77cm


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Removing the drip tray shows the gauge of stainless steel used to build the chassis. The drain plug visible when the tray is removed is the expansion valve drain. Evo includes the option of using a plumbed in drain.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Elephantoplasty said:


> I know that the menu on the machine has the ability to program on and off times, but I have historically automated the power cycling of my machine through a remotely controlled power switch controlled by the home automation.
> 
> Hopefully I can continue to do that - much easier to change programming, disable when I am away etc..
> 
> ...




If the machine is on, when power is terminated, upon restoration of power the machine comes back in the *on state*


If the machine is of, when power is terminated, upon restoration of power the machine comes back in the *of state*


So it fully supports operation using a smart plug or similar device....just don't use the internal on off/timer

Someone asked about group height. This is 130mm on the test bed.









because it has a pressure gauge, you don't need scales 36g output wanted 36.59g achieved


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

> 1 hour ago, The Systemic Kid said:
> 
> Removing the drip tray shows the gauge of stainless steel used to build the chassis. The drain plug visible when the tray is removed is the expansion valve drain. Evo includes the option of using a plumbed in drain.


 Thank you for the video. What is also interesting to me is the fact that there are two fairly thick pieces of what looks to be stainless corner steel underneath. I had not seen this before but this would contribute greatly to the rigidity of the machine.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Paolo has gone to great lengths to ensure the Evo is rigid.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Shot pull. Notice how the pressure when it gets to between 6-7 bar drops instantly to nothing. I would normally pull the shot when it gets to 6-7 bar but got distracted by filming.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@The Systemic Kid Ah, glad to see you make my video skills look normal!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

150 grms of milk micro-steamed in 15 secs


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)




----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, had to find my tripod, charge the batteries up in the camera (old Nikon Coolpix), work out how to use the bloody thing. Needless to say the angles are all wrong but you get the general idea!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Shot pull in slomo


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

> 2 minutes ago, dfk41 said:
> 
> Right, had to find my tripod, charge the batteries up in the camera (old Nikon Coolpix), work out how to use the bloody thing. Needless to say the angles are all wrong but you get the general idea!


 Reminds me of a certain video - can't quite recall which. Please leave me in ignorance🤣


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

SO, for me, the interesting thing is the blue of the shot is pulled between 11 and 7 bar......I have seen other levers with single springs, start off around 10, the shot starts to pull around 9 then tails off very quickly with the bull pulling at around 4 bar


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Group pressure gauge provides tons of feedback.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

There appears to be more flex than I expected. I have a Vesuvius and an L1 and the Vesuvius case is a monster in comparison. Yet there is virtually zero flex on the L1, as can be seen in the countless naked shots. I'm guessing it doesn't affect the shot, just one of the effects that happen. Doesn't remotely look as though it has any chance of tipping so probably nothing to be concerned about.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Stevebee actually owning one, I cannot say I have seen any flex at all. Could you show exactly where you have seen this flex by detailing the video and at what point it happens please matey


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

At around 3rd sec in your video when you pull the lever down, there is some flex in the grouphead, but who cares?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> At around 3rd sec in your video when you pull the lever down, there is some flex in the grouphead, but who cares?


 I will make another one when someone calls round and can video it properly. I think that is camera wobble from me rather than flex......but we will all get the chance to check it and verify it


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Flex is visible in The Systemic Kid's video as well. Looks less but it's there.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

It's in both videos, more noticeable in your one though. The rest of the shot is perfectly still but the group (and handle) clearly move down on both the initial pull and when the lever is release. As I, and @Denis S said, I don't think it matters tbh but it is there


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Well, the group is connected to the brew boiler with a copper pipe. If the group is moving and the boiler is not, how many twists or stretches can the copper pipe take?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Maybe you can ask the producer of the LSM group how they were able to stay in the market for 70 years if the group can snap the pipe that enters the boiler?

The grouphead is mounted with a huge flange into the front chassis/frame. You can even see the screws in the videos, but when your eyes run only to a tilt, then yes, there might be a problem there.

Just like the screws at the grouphead were not flush with the metal, but if you search pictures with the grouphead you see that is how they did it since circa 1950.

While I do appreciate and respect some peoples concern when it comes to these type of stuff, you guys are talking like this machine just hit the market with new made parts, everything was tested and comes from others machines, that worked and had no problems.

Have you seen a Strega dual spring lever pull? did you see any forum complain the group snapped and the pipe that goes into the boiler leaks?

You can have a better look in this video, how the grouphead (with 2 springs tilts) not the same machine, or the same group.






The LSM grouphead was used in multi group machines in a commercial bar setup for many many years, if there would be a problem, you think they would still use it?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

no idea about the l1 etc, but have seen similar flex on p800 and izzo alex leva videos going back many years.
The only difference here is smaller pipe from group to brew boiler. 
Not super worried about this myself.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

> 15 minutes ago, Denis S said:
> 
> Maybe you can ask the producer of the LSM group how they were able to stay in the market for 70 years if the group can snap the pipe that enters the boiler?
> 
> ...


 Love that video! example of flex, but also great summary of levers while pointing out some significant advantages of the evo


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> It's in both videos, more noticeable in your one though. The rest of the shot is perfectly still but the group (and handle) clearly move down on both the initial pull and when the lever is release. As I, and @Denis S said, I don't think it matters tbh but it is there


 I thought the flex was quite low given it's going to be amplified by the time it gets to the end of the group handle. I can totally see why dfk didn't notice it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Given the forces involved, bound to be some movement. Video I uploaded was zoomed in to three times which amplified the degree of movement.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Why would I ask the producer of the LSM group? The group flexing has nothing to do with the group itself and very little with the bolts used. It has everything to do with the frame. How may of those commercial machines you speak of have you checked for group flex?

My current machine (Salvatore Compact Spring Lever) has the Fiorentino group (granted not LSM) and, even when it had both springs in, there is no flexing anywhere, not in the front panel nor in the frame. But the frame is made of 5mm thick steel and is a fully connected box (pictures here: https://www.home-barista.com/levers/salvatore-compact-spring-lever-design-t51714.html). It looks like the Vesuvius has an L-shaped frame and I can't tell if it's even re-enforced in the corner.

Is any of this a problem? Don't know. But asking questions is how problems can be discovered early and I will ask Paolo since I'm in the second batch.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@pinky here is the same group on a really old machine.

Look at :58 when he pulls the lever down:


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> @pinky here is the same group on a really old machine.
> 
> Look at :58 when he pulls the lever down:


 @Denis S Here is the 3-group Vostok being pulled twice starting at 4:05. I don't see any flex.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Because the 3 group doesn't share the same frame/chassis. My whole point to this conversation was there wont be any problem if the group tilts when you pull down the lever.

If the "problem" is the frame is L shaped an easy fix would be to add 2 bars on the sides connecting the top front corner with the back lower corner, making a triangle shaped. 4 holes and a screw rod into the chassis and that's it.

I wont bother with such stuff, if there are problems there is Paolo to be contacted and problems will be solved, my only concern is to make good coffee, screws, tilts, stuff like that, who cares?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I am not an engineer but an economist, but there is also a distribution of the lever force, which makes it not visible in the 3 group (besides different frame, etc).

Nevertheless, considering the amount of time, effort and resources have gone into meticulous conceptualisation, design, engineering review, choice of various components, development and extensive testing by our own @DavecUK , Paolo and his team, they would never have cleared this even if they had a slightest doubt that this might be an issue in the medium term and long term.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Because the 3 group doesn't share the same frame/chassis. My whole point to this conversation was there wont be any problem if the group tilts when you pull down the lever.
> 
> If the "problem" is the frame is L shaped an easy fix would be to add 2 bars on the sides connecting the top front corner with the back lower corner, making a triangle shaped. 4 holes and a screw rod into the chassis and that's it.
> 
> I wont bother with such stuff, if there are problems there is Paolo to be contacted and problems will be solved, my only concern is to make good coffee, screws, tilts, stuff like that, who cares?


 @Denis SWe already know the Evo makes not only good but great drinks. That's not in dispute.

@DavecUK mentioned the appearance of flex in at least one of his test bed videos, and that the source of the issue is an previous-generation Vesuvius frame that had part of the front wall brace removed to accommodate the LSM. My impression is that this is not normal and plans were afoot to redesign/reinforce the Leva so there would be no flex. So that box was mentally ticked, at least until it can be verified in production machines.

This can be fixed of course, I had just thought this had been looked after before serial production began.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Here's an excellent video from Frans demonstrating the LR and LR 24. Unfortunately, when cocking the LR, Frans holds the portafilter with his other hand. But when he cocks the 24 there is visible movement in the group.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Replicated Frans' angle of view as best I could so the scale is pretty much the same for my video below. Watch the movement in the group and compare to Frans' LR 24.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Considering the Evo is a double spring, Paolo has done a great job ensuring movement is minimal.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Can someone show us a flush with nothing in the grouphead? You can use a bowl to catch the water.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> ....there is also a distribution of the lever force, which makes it not visible in the 3 group (besides different frame, etc). ...


 @Like Medium Strong Coffeeactually, flex manifests itself because the kinetic and static forces present are not in equilibrium. Therefore, no force transmission - or "distribution - is possible because it had been locally "spent". Had the kinetic force exerted by lever movement had been fully countered by the static force in the mating frame structure, then the "unspent" force travels, or is distributed elsewhere.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

1:29 mins into the video please...


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> *It's laid out absolutely beautifully inside*...Paolo still using the memory metal vacuum breaker, as he has done on Vesuvius machines for the last 4 years. *Good to finally see La Marzocco starting to use the same vacuum breaker*.
> 
> Having the electronics in a separate compartment, full accessible by removing a single side panel is a great idea. Easy maintenance and good for keeping them cool, plus a great heat sink to mount the SSRs on. ventilation slots top and bottom of the Vesuvius case, coupled with boiler insulation, ensure that nothing gets too hot.
> 
> ...


 From the outside it looks so much like a Vesuvius!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@SupraMan If you see it in real life, then you would be able to see that the Evo group does move a little, but not 'that much'. I think folks have claimed that the Londinium does not flex. Perhaps the video where the two machines are side by side is not representative but holding the pf (why would he do that) whilst cocking the lever is an odd thing. The LR24 does move, but again, I would say not enough to cause me any concerns.

You have to take a lot of actors into consideration. The force required to cock a dual spring lever (sure the more technical minded can help me out here) is an awful lot more than the force required to cock a single. The Evo has a chassis made of stainless steel and weighs an awful lot more than a single boiler, single spring machine. If we accept the video evidence, then both the Evo and the LR24 have some flex.....so what!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

SupraMan said:


> I've watched that 10 times at the point you describe and I can't see anything! Certainly not like the one above.
> Maybe my eyes are funny!
> We are talking about the group moving right?


 Yes at this point it's time for the opticians 😉


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

SupraMan said:


> Nothing of importance


 where are you seeing this "awful" flex? surprised that you can see nothing in the video of the L24 (there is not much there, but i can see it??) with the latest video from @The Systemic Kid (






) - again i can see it, and it doesnt look too bad to me.

As i mentioned before - I have watched many other similar videos and have seen much worse. when thinking of spending lots of money, its very easy for tiny things to be magnified. i remember thinking and doing the same around January, for example asking if the Izzo patent safety mechanism was present (maybe it is, maybe not, who knows) - because i was overthinking everything. For a good/legitimate reason (its a big investment, and noone wants to buy a lemon). If you go back to the beginning of the Londinium thread on HB, there are pages discussing the same thing in the early days. Hence im not too worried about it.

If it looks awful to you, then i would get the L24 which you cannot see any flex in. Its also a great machine and you will be happy. If you are really worried because you still want one of these machines, then email Paulo and maybe he can address your concerns.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Here are a few videos of LSM machines with their levers being pulled. 3 different people, 2 different machines, the same LSM group. You be the judge.

1. Salvatore at his 2-group dipper, pulling at 1:37


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

What's this actually achieving.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

As dfk41 said, I am also a little surprised that guys hold the PF whole cocking the LR24 lever. It still flexes.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Jony said:


> What's this actually achieving.


 I'm just filling time until mine is ready 🙂


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well I should be up and running again tomorrow two weeks or so with no machine.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

SupraMan said:


> Up to you guys I guess, but that flex looks awful. Surely they would have sorted that out?
> I don't have either machine, but I was considering the ACS, but I'm really glad I didn't. I couldn't handle that amount of flex and be comfortable with using it day on day.
> Presumably it comes with a long warranty?


 And we are glad you did not order one, so other people have access to one faster. Thank you.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jony said:


> Well I should be up and running again tomorrow two weeks or so with no machine.


 I went from March 12th to June 7th......you lightweight!!


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

See its all out war regards to machines.

This is what i hate about the coffee industry,

Near on every lever flexes to some extent. Your pulling something now against a force of 145lbs or there abouts

My londinium has a bit of flex, the leva has a bit of flex and my lr24 had a bit of flex.

Does it matter no. Are they under warranty. Yes.

This constant points scoring is very grating.

Im happy those who got the machine sre enjoying it.

I was eyeing one up after my lr24 went back. But that pump noise is simply a no for me

You pays your moneys you tske your choice.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> See its all out war regards to machines.
> 
> This is what i hate about the coffee industry,
> 
> ...


 @Cuprajake It's not the industry, you would be surprised how in Italy they are all friendly with one another ECM (Michael is the same). All of them are just trying to make better machines for their customers.... *The all out war is actually driven by the customers, not the manufacturers.*

The Vesuvius Evo Leva was built to specifically offer consumers a lever machine that fuses modern with traditional, whilst trying to retain all the traditional feel and advantages of the spring lever group, but addressing some things that turn "some" people off levers. It's a modern take on an old school tech. The things I and ACS hoped would be unique and an advancement on what's currently out there for levers, not just doing the same old thing. The Unique (or almost unique) things about the Evo are:



Repeatable Temperature control that can be made hotter or colder


Temperature profiles that can be flat, declining or rising, but in a repeatable and controllable way


Decoupling Steaming from Brewing, allowing very powerful steaming and 2.3 litre boiler


Allowing the steam boiler to be switched off when not needed


basic electronics for on/off timers, remember last state, PID control, Independent tuning of all PIDs and temps. Supports smart plug usage


Active heated PID controlled group (this makes the 15 minute warm up available)


Stainless Wet liner group, double chambered allowing for group mounted gauge measuring chamber pressure


2 springs (but one can be removed if desired, not recommended)...in a classic commercial configuration


Fully stainless construction (3mm thick in places). Tanked or plumbed operation (electronically configurable)


Electronic safety systems against flooding and excessive pump run time


Side Tank allowing easy access without removing cups


Stainless steel grids (nothing for cups to scratch)


Choose the steam/water wand style and steam left or right.


Electronics in separate compartment away from boilers, heat and water..All accessible by removing a side panel.


*Lastly the price...a machine with a significant extra build cost to anything comparable on the market, but for a sub £2500 delivered price (inc all taxes), to help keep it accessible..*

Is it the machine for everyone, of course not...but it's a genuine attempt to build a better lever, with good quality, at a more than fair price. In that, I think ACS have done a good job.


----------



## Ernestedmunds (Jun 10, 2021)

Hi everyone, I'm considering one of these, what exactly is the ordering process at the moment? I current have a gaggia classic and mignon and have been ready for an upgrade for a while. Not one for forums though! All seems rather childish reading through this

Ta

Ernest


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Hi everyone, I'm considering one of these, what exactly is the ordering process at the moment? I current have a gaggia classic and mignon and have been ready for an upgrade for a while. Not one for forums though! All seems rather childish reading through this
> 
> Ta
> 
> Ernest


 I think you have to contact ACS directly...

Try sending an e-mail to: [email protected]

*The comment about things being childish is a strange one and unfair on our members, especially as this is your first post.*


----------



## Ernestedmunds (Jun 10, 2021)

Am I likely to benefit from the sub £2500 price tag or has that gone now?

is this flex thing really an issue? It's slightly worrying if you imagine metal moving in a way it's not designed. My gut instinct says not but I just can't tell as one person thinks it it and another doesn't


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Contact Paolo

[email protected]



Ernestedmunds said:


> is this flex thing really an issue? It's slightly worrying if you imagine metal moving in a way it's not designed. My gut instinct says not but I just can't tell as one person thinks it it and another doesn't


 No. Owned Londinium levers going back to 2012 and there is some inevitable flexing of the group. Never had any problems with the ones I had. Evo flexes very slightly more than the Londinium but that's splitting hairs.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> @Cuprajake It's not the industry, you would be surprised how in Italy they are all friendly with one another ECM (Michael is the same). All of them are just trying to make better machines for their customers.... *The all out war is actually driven by the customers, not the manufacturers.*
> 
> The Vesuvius Evo Leva was built to specifically offer consumers a lever machine that fuses modern with traditional, whilst trying to retain all the traditional feel and advantages of the spring lever group, but addressing some things that turn "some" people off levers. It's a modern take on an old school tech. The things I and ACS hoped would be unique and an advancement on what's currently out there for levers, not just doing the same old thing. The Unique (or almost unique) things about the Evo are:
> 
> ...


 You forgot the ACS bar towel, Dave.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well I Didn't get one🤔😎


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Jony said:


> Well I Didn't get one🤔😎


 That's being greedy- you got an extra group!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Open to offers Jony.


----------



## Ernestedmunds (Jun 10, 2021)

Email has gone off to Paulo, fingers crossed I can get a good rate.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Am I likely to benefit from the sub £2500 price tag or has that gone now?
> 
> is this flex thing really an issue? It's slightly worrying if you imagine metal moving in a way it's not designed. My gut instinct says not but I just can't tell as one person thinks it it and another doesn't


 I don't think you will ever break it, it's nice stainless, tougher than you....not an issue at all, you should see Frankenstien the proof of concept machine <lol> and that hasn't broken yet.

I dunno with the price, it depends how far down the build queue you are...which might also mean a long wait...the price may well go up by £100 or even £150 as post covid the price of everything it up in Italy.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Haha 😁🤣


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> View attachment 58013
> 
> 
> Open to offers Jony.


 So cruel you lot😁


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Jony said:


> So cruel you lot😁


 It's hot pink though....will it go with your summer shorts. 😉


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

About the flex...


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> It's hot pink though....will it go with your summer shorts. 😉


 Of course they do😁


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> It's hot pink though....will it go with your summer shorts. 😉


 Wish it were blue... or... yellow? 🤣


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> Can someone show us a flush with nothing in the grouphead? You can use a bowl to catch the water.


 I will do this tomorrow. How much do you want flushed through matey?


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Does anyone have a machine with some of the different steam / water arm options - the Minima arms or the Vostok long arms? Would be great to see some photos and perhaps a video of them in use. I'm still yet to decide on my choice for my batch 2 machine....

Thanks.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Elephantoplasty I have the Minima set up, with short arms. it is just a personal preference thing so there is no right or wrong on this. I rarely steam more than 300 pls of milk, perhaps if I did I would have gone for the Spiders legs approach!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Two things that really please me on this machine. Firstly, who has bought a new machine with the standard arrangement for using the top of the machine as a cup warmer and within a couple of weeks your pride and joy is scratched to hell? The Evo gets around this with a simple use of a wire mesh to sit the cups on. This means that you can use the cup warmer for its intended purpose without fear! This leads into the second thing I really like, and that is the wy to fill the water reservoir. In case you have not seen it, there is a catch built into the left hand side panel and this opens up to reveal the slimline tank, making filling it a doddle! No having to move cups and lift lids. I do not know how many times on my previous machine, that by the time I had stretched over the machine to the rear, opened the lid with the two finger pinch arrangement, only to promptly drop the lid into the reservoir! Yes, you could call me a clumsy old git and you would probably be correct, but none the less it is a fact.

Today I am moving back onto familiar territory bean wise using Extract Sugar Cane decaf, a bean that I know very well. I hope therefore to be able to tweak away, unless my memory is letting me down! It is also a pleasure looking at the coloured display panel which in standby, tells you the day and time that your machine will spring into action the next day, thus doing away with house timer plugs. I do not leave th house as much now I am retired so do not need to switch ir on remotely


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

I also like that the power switch is hidden behind that pop out panel. I've only used the power switch once on my current machine - to initially turn it on.

The wire mesh cup trays don't have showroom oomph - but I agree, if you're actually going to put cups up there, I'd rather a mesh than a scratched up designer tray as you can hardly see them anyway. Scratches don't have to be visible to affect us OCD types.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> I will do this tomorrow. How much do you want flushed through matey?


 Only a tiny bit, like 3-5 sec and to see the water falling out of the group.

you can see what i'm looking for at 1:04 in this video (he has the pf into the group to heat it but this is not the case):


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S Will do a little later. The chap in that video used to be a forum member and I actually bought that Bosco from him! Just remembered his name @bubbajvegas


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Woo Hoo, just received my DHL despatch notification.

I was number 9 in the queue but there was a little delay in the payment going through, all sorted this morning.

Thank you Paolo.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Norvin said:


> Woo Hoo, just received my DHL despatch notification.
> 
> I was number 9 in the queue but there was a little delay in the payment going through, all sorted this morning.
> 
> Thank you Paolo.


 time to get excited Les......sounds like Tuesday for you! You probably will not hear much now until it is collected and received back at the DHL depot.....dont forget to pay the customs charge!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Norvin said:


> Woo Hoo, just received my DHL despatch notification.
> 
> I was number 9 in the queue but there was a little delay in the payment going through, all sorted this morning.
> 
> Thank you Paolo.


 Good to hear Les.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

shimon said:


> I also like that the power switch is hidden behind that pop out panel. I've only used the power switch once on my current machine - to initially turn it on.
> 
> The wire mesh cup trays don't have showroom oomph - but I agree, if you're actually going to put cups up there, I'd rather a mesh than a scratched up designer tray as you can hardly see them anyway. Scratches don't have to be visible to affect us OCD types.


 Hidden main power switch is good attention to detail and something, IMO, other manufacturers should emulate. Wire mesh tray is a great idea - saves having to put matting on the top of your shiny machine to prevent scratching.


----------



## Ernestedmunds (Jun 10, 2021)

Paulo infomed me of the price which at todays exchange rate is £2275 delivered that gives me a delivery date by end July, seems good value to me, well at least compared to other machines, maybe not my classic which ive had for 20 years and cost me £210 new!

Now, I dont want to be controversial but last night I read through the entirety of this thread. There is a clear and notable comparison to londinium and clearly some bad blood which is either with londinium the company or somebody else you all seem to know. Why does the machine keep being compared to them? are they the gold standard of lever machine for the home, they are a little expensive for me? this is an incredibly large amount of money for me and I really dont want to be caught up in a turf war where I end up buying the wrong machine because people are saying its good because they are friends with the manufacturer or trying to score points against unknown enemies. The flex issue is an example, how do I really know if its an issue, one person says it is, another person who already has the machine and has had digs at londinium says it isnt! My initial impression is its an opportunity too good to pass up but It is a worry


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Ernestedmunds said:


> the price which at todays exchange rate is £2275 delivered


 is that value before or after custom charges (i.e.: Will you have to pay VAT and duty on top of that)?


----------



## Ernestedmunds (Jun 10, 2021)

Ah he didnt mention that, he said 2650 euros.... what fees am I likely to have?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Ah he didnt mention that, he said 3650 euros.... what fees am I likely to have?


 Question for @dfk41 or @The Systemic Kid who just had their machines delivered - so they should be able to tell you exactly!


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

> 20 hours ago, The Systemic Kid said:
> 
> Replicated Frans' angle of view as best I could so the scale is pretty much the same for my video below. Watch the movement in the group and compare to Frans' LR 24.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Question for @dfk41 or @The Systemic Kid who just had their machines delivered - so they should be able to tell you exactly!


 Regarding the import fees, there will be some additional fees based on the declared value of the goods being shipped - It is not too bad though, but budget for an additional ~£200 (can not say exact as I ended up buying the 2 group)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Paulo infomed me of the price which at todays exchange rate is £2275 delivered that gives me a delivery date by end July, seems good value to me, well at least compared to other machines, maybe not my classic which ive had for 20 years and cost me £210 new!
> 
> Now, I dont want to be controversial but last night I read through the entirety of this thread. There is a clear and notable comparison to londinium and clearly some bad blood which is either with londinium the company or somebody else you all seem to know. Why does the machine keep being compared to them? are they the gold standard of lever machine for the home, they are a little expensive for me? this is an incredibly large amount of money for me and I really dont want to be caught up in a turf war where I end up buying the wrong machine because people are saying its good because they are friends with the manufacturer or trying to score points against unknown enemies. The flex issue is an example, how do I really know if its an issue, one person says it is, another person who already has the machine and has had digs at londinium says it isnt! My initial impression is its an opportunity too good to pass up but It is a worry


 *The flex issue was really bigged up by a fake account, that has been dealt with*. They were posting for one reason only, to create trouble. Watch peoples videos, go and see one if you are really concerned. This is not a discussion or a comparison with Londinium, even if some people want to make it that. This machine is not remotely similar to Londinium in any way except that they both have a lever you pull. So any comparison, doesn't even make sense. *The only turf war is one that others are trying to create....*

I've been quite open that I am friends with Paolo and helped with the basic design. I used by 20 years experience to make a lever machine for the 21st century, done the best it can be for a fair price. I'm not paid by ACS and I do it for fun. I would certainly never want to be involved in any deception for a machine that was no good. Paolo does not get an easy time from me at all...which is why there was a big delay in getting the Evo out the door.

*If that's a major concern for you...buy a Londinium.* Then you can be sure that there are:



no hidden agendas


no hidden relationships with Londinium


everything is going to be good, excellent or better


There is a closed private forum for discussions and support


You can be assured of top notch service


The machines are built by Fracino (so easy access to spares)


If you decide on a Londinium R24 or one of the cheaper models, . You will get the same help and welcome on here as any other member.* I would go so far as to say, if you have the slightest doubt about the Vesuvius Evo Leva, don't buy it, then your peace of mind is assured.* It's a big purchase, so you want to be comfortable.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> *The flex issue was really bigged up by a fake account, that has been dealt with*. They were posting for one reason only, to create trouble. Watch peoples videos, go and see one if you are really concerned. This is not a discussion or a comparison with Londinium, even if some people want to make it that. This machine is not remotely similar to Londinium in any way except that they both have a lever you pull. So any comparison, doesn't even make sense. *The only turf war is one that others are trying to create....*
> 
> I've been quite open that I am friends with Paolo and helped with the basic design. I used by 20 years experience to make a lever machine for the 21st century, done the best it can be for a fair price. I'm not paid by ACS and I do it for fun. I would certainly never want to be involved in any deception for a machine that was no good. Paolo does not get an easy time from me at all...which is why there was a big delay in getting the Evo out the door.
> 
> ...


 @DavecUKYou are a good man, thank you for all you have done.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S Here you go matey, but I am not sure exactly what you are trying to see. If you think about a drainpipe, the water does not flow down the middle of the pipe, it sticks to the inside of the pipe and swirls down....but always a pleasure to oblige!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Holonomic said:


> Regarding the import fees, there will be some additional fees based on the declared value
> ...
> but budget for an additional ~£200


 I know this is very confusing and not transparent at all. But... if VAT is 20% and a machine costs say, £2.3k... How can the custom charges be around £200? Should it be around £400 or is the declared value a lot less than what the customer pays for?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Ah he didnt mention that, he said 2650 euros.... what fees am I likely to have?


 Do not know if this has been answered but my fees were £137


----------



## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Paulo infomed me of the price which at todays exchange rate is £2275 delivered that gives me a delivery date by end July, seems good value to me, well at least compared to other machines, maybe not my classic which ive had for 20 years and cost me £210 new!
> 
> Now, I dont want to be controversial but last night I read through the entirety of this thread. There is a clear and notable comparison to londinium and clearly some bad blood which is either with londinium the company or somebody else you all seem to know. Why does the machine keep being compared to them? are they the gold standard of lever machine for the home, they are a little expensive for me? this is an incredibly large amount of money for me and I really dont want to be caught up in a turf war where I end up buying the wrong machine because people are saying its good because they are friends with the manufacturer or trying to score points against unknown enemies. The flex issue is an example, how do I really know if its an issue, one person says it is, another person who already has the machine and has had digs at londinium says it isnt! My initial impression is its an opportunity too good to pass up but It is a worry


 Personally if I were in your shoes I'd be the Evo.

I currently own a Londinium R, which I am more than happy with and will probably never replace. Londiniums service is amazing and the machine has been a joy to use.

One of the reasons I ended up with one was a very kind member on here @The Systemic Kid was kind enough to invite me over to his house(pre-covid) and spent all afternoon pulling shots and talking about coffee with me. I trust his tastes fully and he has no affiliation with either Londinium or ACS.

Why would I buy the Evo now if I had to replace my londinium, 1. The reviews of @The Systemic Kid@dfk41 so far are all positive and they have both previously owned Londiniums so their reviews are the most relevant to me as a Londinium owner.

The Evo offers far more adjustability and features at a far lower price point than the current LR24. You could buy the Evo and a high end grinder for the price of the LR24.

ACS as far as I understand also offer fantastic service.

Just my 2 cents.

p.s not to discount all of your views on the machine @DavecUK - we all know your shares in ACS, Niche and Osmio are soaring these days 😂😂😂😂


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I know this is very confusing and not transparent at all. But... if VAT is 20% and a machine costs say, £2.3k... How can the custom charges be around £200? Should it be around £400 or is the declared value a lot less than what the customer pays for?


 Fair point and probably a failure with my maths  In regards to the import duties, I would budget for the 20% and any any less is a nice bonus!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Ah he didnt mention that, he said 2650 euros.... what fees am I likely to have?


 Price Paolo is quoting is ex-factory including shipping via DHL. When your machine is ready for despatch, DHL will email you with a customs bill which you have to pay before they will deliver. Currently, it's about £130.00.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Holonomic said:


> Regarding the import fees, there will be some additional fees based on the declared value of the goods being shipped - It is not too bad though, but budget for an additional ~£200 (can not say exact as I ended up buying the 2 group)


 Out of interest what made you go for the 2 group? And how does the price compare? Thanks!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Fez said:


> p.s not to discount all of your views on the machine @DavecUK - we all know your shares in ACS, Niche and Osmio are soaring these days 😂😂😂😂


 You forgot my Quickmill, Lelit, ECM, Profitec, Crem, Izzo shares, solo ones, and my Eureka Ones...I'd be a rich man 🤣


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> You forgot my Quickmill, Lelit, ECM, Profitec, Crem, Izzo shares, solo ones, and my Eureka Ones...I'd be a rich man 🤣


 Did you forget Sandbox Smart? 🙂


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Paulo infomed me of the price which at todays exchange rate is £2275 delivered that gives me a delivery date by end July, seems good value to me, well at least compared to other machines, maybe not my classic which ive had for 20 years and cost me £210 new!
> 
> Now, I dont want to be controversial but last night I read through the entirety of this thread. There is a clear and notable comparison to londinium and clearly some bad blood which is either with londinium the company or somebody else you all seem to know. Why does the machine keep being compared to them? are they the gold standard of lever machine for the home, they are a little expensive for me? this is an incredibly large amount of money for me and I really dont want to be caught up in a turf war where I end up buying the wrong machine because people are saying its good because they are friends with the manufacturer or trying to score points against unknown enemies. The flex issue is an example, how do I really know if its an issue, one person says it is, another person who already has the machine and has had digs at londinium says it isnt! My initial impression is its an opportunity too good to pass up but It is a worry


 I don't think it's fair to the Vesuvius Evo Leva to be compared to LR24! It's like comparing the champions league with La Liga! Both are good but in totally different class. I'm not saying that you should get this machine but I'll tell you why I bought it after 2 days of reading about it and watching Dave's YouTube videos. I was eyeing LR24 for over a year but couldn't pull the trigger I don't know why but there was something about it that's not that appealing. I'm glad I didn't and the right machine came along thanks to Dave and Paolo. In a quick comparison I did, I listed these advantages of the Evo against LR24 :

- Cheaper

- Better internals ( La Marzocco like )

- Dual Boiler ( First affordable dual boiler lever machine on the market )

- More expensive reliable LSM group head which costs 40% more than LR24's group head ( + I've always wanted to try a LSM shot which been described as pudding-like! )

- Warm up time 16 minutes VS 1 hour for LR24

- ACS been on the market for a long time and they know what they are doing

- Black colored side panels and rear is a huge plus for me

Don't buy the machine based on my advice. I'm just telling you the reasons that got me to buy it.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

On a side note: I see the flex and I know it's a double spring group head but it will only get worse with time and use. I hope Mr.Cortese will support the front panel with more weight (or any solution possible) even if I have to pay extra. I'm on the 2nd batch with 2 machines, one is for a friend who I convinced of selling his Synchronika in favor of the Evo Leva.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> On a side note: I see the flex and I know it's a double spring group head but it will only get worse with time and use. I hope Mr.Cortese will support the front panel with more weight (or any solution possible) even if I have to pay extra. I'm on the 2nd batch with 2 machines, one is for a friend who I convinced of selling his Synchronika in favor of the Evo Leva.


 The front panel is 2mm thick stainless and behind that is a further strengthening plate and load spreader of 3mm thick. This makes a total of 5mm thick stainless. It will never break or get worse with time.









Brew WATER pipe is shaped like this to prevent any minute movement causing a problem and the feed to the group is close to the centre, at the point of minimum movement.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MW11 said:


> On a side note: I see the flex and I know it's a double spring group head but it will only get worse with time and use. I hope Mr.Cortese will support the front panel with more weight (or any solution possible) even if I have to pay extra. I'm on the 2nd batch with 2 machines, one is for a friend who I convinced of selling his Synchronika in favor of the Evo Leva.


 I wouldn't assume that any changes will be made for the 2nd batch. Those involved and also those that have received their machines had indicated that it's not an issue so unless Paolo confirms it I guess your one will be the same.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

This is a single spring lever in a bar...

View attachment WhatsApp Video 2021-06-11 at 15.02.25.mp4


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> I wouldn't assume that any changes will be made for the 2nd batch. Those involved and also those that have received their machines had indicated that it's not an issue so unless Paolo confirms it I guess your one will be the same.


 I wish I had the space like @Holonomicand @Jony

if it flexes then it flexes nothing can be done about it now. I can't wait to play with it. 
@dfk41@The Systemic Kidhow's the straight espressos and americanos? Any luck with single shots 8-11 grams?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MW11 said:


> @dfk41@The Systemic Kidhow's the straight espressos and americanos? Any luck with single shots 8-11 grams?


 Keeping things simple - sticking with the double basket. Dosing 18grms and pulling 39-40grms out. PI is around 8secs with shot complete in around 32secs. Only variable I have played with is dropping the temperature to 94c to see what effect it had on the extraction. Result was less fruit intensity but not sour. Still getting strawberry but more muted. So, I will up the temp back to around 96c for the brew boiler where it was before.

The steam Evo generates is outstanding. Produces perfect textured milk.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 Well, today have had a little more time so set up a short experiment. Now, my tastebuds are infamous, but not in a good way of course! So, I made three shots using the same bean, same grind setting but setting the brew boiler at 92, 92.5 then 93. Why? Who knows! But, let me tell you, I made americanos in around 6 ounce size cup. The bean.....well......due to health issues a couple of years ago, my short term memory function is often pretty poor. I know they are Brazilian, I know the date of roasting, I know the date I vacuum sealed them but I have no idea who roasted them or what they are......LOL. I can tell you though, that at 93 degrees, this was the best tasting shot with definite fruity notes coming through! Very unscientific I know. I repeat my offer of, if anyone wants to travel to the Newcastle area and have a play, just get in touch! If anyone has any more unscientific experiments they want conducted please let me know. I did swop the 3 hole steam tip out for the supplied two hole. The reason for this was that the one milk based drink I have per day, I only use around 4 ounces and it was definitely more contorllable!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Another reference point: a 3-group LSM machine being pulled at 0:42 in the following video. Note that even with the barista's left hand holding onto the front frame as leverage against the pull, the force exerted on the lever means some group movement can be easily detected and frankly, to be expected.

For me, the issue is settled.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Out of interest what made you go for the 2 group? And how does the price compare? Thanks!


 Honestly, I just loved the look of it! I had always planned to plumb it in so the tank/pump was not needed... I mentioned it to the better half expecting her to say no but she said just do it... so I did 

I must say that now it has arrived I am slightly regretting it as a) the layout of our kitchen has been changed so there is less space where the coffee machine is going to go and b) due to the delay in our kitchen it will not be set up any time soon (where as the evo I could have set up not plumbed in!) c) the Evo would have given us some extra space to work with 

I am sure I will not regret it once it is set up though


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Obviously what I can say is always a side part just because I'm a designer. The machine flex yes, the double spring pressure is 300kg vs 180 of single spring. So mechanically speaking (if we want to speak about that) the problem is not if something flex but the repeatability of this moving, if flex one time and nothing more it means that the piece is bend and this is a problem. For sure I can say that flex less than other machine but I think that the point is another which problem someone could have for this reason? There tons of lever machines in bars that works extensively everyday without any problems and flex all the time, tomorrow I'll post a video of one of those. Of course I'm open always to constructive criticism, if any there are and there are for sure, I made my best but I think that something could be always improved.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> Obviously what I can say is always a side part just because I'm a designer. The machine flex yes, the double spring pressure is 300kg vs 180 of single spring. So mechanically speaking (if we want to speak about that) the problem is not if something flex but the repeatability of this moving, if flex one time and nothing more it means that the piece is bend and this is a problem. For sure I can say that flex less than other machine but I think that the point is another which problem someone could have for this reason? There tons of lever machines in bars that works extensively everyday without any problems and flex all the time, tomorrow I'll post a video of one of those. Of course I'm open always to constructive criticism, if any there are and there are for sure, I made my best but I think that something could be always improved.


 Great response! More reason why to choose ACS! Other manufacturers were stubborn and were very defensive of their machines ( yes, I'm referring to a competitive lever manufacturers who seem to be A holes ). Thanks Paolo for saying that it's really reassuring. Every aspect of the machine seems on point from the pictures shared by the first batch owners.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@DavecUK@The Systemic Kid@dfk41 I think you titans should give the single basket a chance. Might be the just right dose for an affogato! I can't believe no one have tasted straight espressos yet! You don't need to finish it just taste the shot. Use your machines to it's full potentials! After all you got the best lever machine on the market! Other lever machines I see 40-56 seconds including the pre infusion time, is it possible with the Evo Leva? Or the timing differs on this machine? What wdt, funnel and dosing cups are you using?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 I will do espresso tomorrow.....I will try single basket supplied but even for a single, it is enormous!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MW11 said:


> @DavecUK@The Systemic Kid@dfk41 I think you titans should give the single basket a chance.


 Using lighter roasts - am dosing 17-18grms so the single basket won't work.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Using lighter roasts - am dosing 17-18grms so the single basket won't work.


 Has anyone with the evo (or any other LSM machine) tried an IMS basket yet?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Holonomic said:


> Has anyone with the evo (or any other LSM machine) tried an IMS basket yet?


 Have them on order


----------



## Ernestedmunds (Jun 10, 2021)

Wow this thread is great, amazing to have Paulo contribute too. I've been mulling things over and have noticed people show flex on other machines which are not a problem to disprove the fact it's an issue. Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting it is but equally it's the sort of problem that could turn it into a brick should it become an issue.

the reason we know it's not an issue on the other older machines is time, this is a new machine with a new setup and time has not passed.

Have Paulo,ACS or Dave done stress and fatigue testing with this frame/group setup? I noted the support plate at the back, an afterthought perhaps?

I really want one, I would like to get my hands on one and maybe it would put my mind at ease but seeing these videos, the speed at which it's come together, the lever wars, the mention of 300kg forces are just a bit scary. I have to wait a few months for delivery and know I'll be worrying.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Wow this thread is great, amazing to have Paulo contribute too. I've been mulling things over and have noticed people show flex on other machines which are not a problem to disprove the fact it's an issue. Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting it is but equally it's the sort of problem that could turn it into a brick should it become an issue.
> 
> the reason we know it's not an issue on the other older machines is time, this is a new machine with a new setup and time has not passed.
> 
> ...


 I am following this thread as I am fascinated by this machine, most likely I would not go for lever (I do not have space to accommodate it and I am very happy with my V, also ACS machine), but I appreciate the amount of effort, time and money that have gone in this project. The bold letters above remind me the arguments of the anti-vaxers (I do not want to start any discussion on this one, please) against the COVID vaccines. And yet, here we are, the UK being in the top three putting off the emergency situation. ACS, Paolo and Dave have been in this for decades. They know what they are doing if I am allowed to use Kimi's expression. People have trusted them and the results are beyond expectations.

As many have pointed out the flexing happens in the elastic region, i.e. it is totally reversible and the material, stainless steel in this case, would need hundreds of thousands if not millions times flexing before the material ages enough to become an issue (becomes plastic). I do not believe anyone would be able to pull that many shots at home. Skyscrapers bend due to strong winds and yet people live happily at the 96th floor and they still build them.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Ernestedmunds said:


> Wow this thread is great, amazing to have Paulo contribute too. I've been mulling things over and have noticed people show flex on other machines which are not a problem to disprove the fact it's an issue. Don't get me wrong I'm not suggesting it is but equally it's the sort of problem that could turn it into a brick should it become an issue.
> 
> the reason we know it's not an issue on the other older machines is time, this is a new machine with a new setup and time has not passed.
> 
> ...


 Did you see the picture @davecuk posted of the copper pipe from the group to the brew boiler.

The lever places rotational force around the axis of the top two fixings. So when you pull the lever forward it pushes the bottom two inwards by mm. This is thick plate and in layers for extra strength. If there was going to be a problem it would not be the fixings, but the pipe attachment to the boiler. Here copper is used for the pipe as it is softer, and so can take flexing. The use of copper in lever machines joining the group is standard across _all_ lever machines - p800, izzo leva, and londinium etc. For exactly this reason.

if you look at the pic - the relevant pipe is the u shape with the flex in the group coming from the right hand side. So as you can see it any force/movement from the right side is not up against an resistance from brew boiler - instead it will flex around the top of the "U".

My duetto gets similar group movement (left to right) tightening and removing the portafilter, but it has more pipes because of the thermosyphon as opposed to a single pipe on the Evo.

worse case - after many years you might need a single copper U-shaped pipe, but it's a real stretch to think that will be any time soon, and really not a brick scenario Perhaps someone will take a video of the pipe while pulling the lever - it's going to be a boring one, but perhaps enlightening ????

Honestly I would search similar machines e.g. izzo Alex leva which also has an LSM group, and has been around since 2015. You will find much discussion at the beginning of the relevant threads about flex and scrutiny of videos in the same way. Many years later - no change to design or problems. In the case of the leva e.g. check the users' profiles who initially discuss. They all still have the same machines and have commented on the last year on reliability. The only issues I could find were dead-on-arrival problems, rectified later.

Now if you then do the same for other manufacturers (p800, londinium, etc) you will find many more examples of the same for each model. I know this because back when the videos of the Frankenstein came out I researched all of them.

Also worth noting that although this is the initial few of this machine, the Vostok (using the same group), and others by ACS/Paolo have been around for years working specifically with this group, but in higher use commercial machines - think constantly making shots all day long for years...

Honestly as others have pointed out - if worried then don't buy, as obviously it may be too stressful - go with what makes you feel comfortable. Also no rush - let the dust settle and see how things go.


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Holonomic said:


> Has anyone with the evo (or any other LSM machine) tried an IMS basket yet?


 I have tried the 12-14g IMS basket on my new Alex leva (lam group) this week or so

I use it because the stock baskets are too big (20g, but extracts very well I think, but I'd rather make few, smaller espressos, more fun) or small (7-8g, such a small / thin puck is a bit finicky, sometimes works well, sometimes falls apart / channels +++). I dose 12-13g in the IMS , use the matching IMS tamper, and it all works well

If you want to does at 18-21g I think the stock baskets (at least the ones Izzo supplied) are great. Tamper is a bit small but does not seem to really matter

Anyone else experimenting with gentle wetting (lever just at the point water enters the group slowly) before pre infusion proper? I have found it maybe helps even extractions with lighter roasts. Ive been getting amazing results with the Columbian Potosi Tres Dragones, a natural processed filter roast from Black Cat. Grind fine, 15-20 sec PI, 3:1.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Ernestedmunds Nothing on the machine is an afterthought...that's not how it works. The CAD has to be well-thought-out and accurate, it's all built (the entire machine) in Solidworks Pro (everything, every screw, nut, bend and component), long before any metal is cut. The plate was one of the first things specified. The Vesuvius E61 machine also has a plate, just smaller.

The speed it came together was being smart with development, it speeds up new products to market significantly. Reuse of known proven components, boards, boilers, groups, cases, water systems, safety systems, ensures success. For me it was simply a Lego set to play with....I put the bits together, Paolo did the hard work in CAD for the fine details such as support plates, tube bends, mountings etc.. The one new component in all this is the Fluid O Tech Gear pump chosen. Importantly, the pump had the flow and pressure characteristics required at a sensible price. It also has possible versatility in the future.

The other factor which speeds development, is when you own the factory that builds them as Paolo does, not having to farm that work out (design and build) to a separate company. That level of control allows decisions to be made rapidly and development to proceed without impediments, or calls on time with other projects. It's why I like to work with owners who controll their own companies...makes life so much easier.



> I really want one, I would like to get my hands on one and maybe it would put my mind at ease but seeing these videos, the speed at which it's come together, the lever wars, the mention of 300kg forces are just a bit scary. I have to wait a few months for delivery and know I'll be worrying.


 *If you are at all unsure....definitely go for something else.* Perhaps an owner near you will pop up (I'm not sure where you are), then you can go and see one. After that, perhaps wait a few years and if there are no problems with the case etc..consider one then.

*In fact...I am sure this is not the machine for you, and you should buy the Londinium*


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Ernestedmunds I think to be certain of something, then you have to be 100% behind your decision, and you are not. If you have noticed, on this forum, the machines did arrive but we did not from the start, even before we turned the machines on, start using phrases like, 'wow, Paolo has really kicked this one out of the park' or similar such woffle! It takes time for us, even the old hands to learn our machines, and we are doing that.

On the question of flex, and please, I am trying to help you here not criticise you. I would keep your thoughts more private, otherwise it may seem that with 8 posts, your real agenda is not to buy an Evo but simply to criticise. No one has ever tried to hide the very small flex issues matey. it is a consequence of owning a lever, not only a lever but a dual spring lever built for home use. At some point the group has to bolt onto the body ad it is as simple as that.

ACS build an array of machines for the commercial market. That gives Paolo, a designer, an infinite amount of experience which is also coupled with that of @DavecUK. Despite what you may think, the machine is put together using on the whole existing ACS parts. @DavecUKhas had the test bed for a number of months, initially to see as a concept if it would work. It has been extensively tested over that period of time with much of the data shared on his Youtube channel and also on here. So, I do not believe in trying to persuade you to do what I have done. I can clearly see that you worry about things, so I would say watch the threads that appear on this machine. If you have any questions to ask of design matters, address them privately to the only two people who may know the answers ie @Paolo_Corteseor @DavecUK


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

The question of flex doesn't seem to want to go away. I won't call it an 'issue', because in my mind it isn't. Let me try to capture why:



All lever machines flex - some perhaps imperceptibly, but I think all the domestic units I have seen have visible flex - as seen in various videos people have posted. The groups are bolted to a flat surface, and the leverage is high. It is the surface to which the group is bolted that flexes a bit under the load.


We really only notice it through a mechanism of amplification of the movement - the reflected image on the front panel changes, or the portafilter, which is a moderate distance from the rotation point, moves a couple of mm. Both these effectively add to the visibility of the movement.


I have never heard of a domestic lever machine having fatigue failures as a result of the slight flexing movement. I personally have a Strega over 7 years old, and it flexes (the video DaveC put up was a Strega). It flexes, and always has, and from what I have seen in the videos of the Vesuvius, it flexes more than the Vesuvius. As an aside, I think the Strega is actually a double spring machine - I seem to recall seeing double springs last time I lubed the seals. Irrespective, it generates a touch over 11 bar - I measured it this morning out of interest. I have owned it for 5 years or so, and the flexing hasn't got worse. I used to notice the flexing, but that was long ago.


Unless bolts come loose, there is no reason to expect that it will get worse over time. High quality metal as used in the Vesuvius can happily flex within its elastic limit for a long time and many, many cycles. And the actual distance moved at the front panel where the group is bolted on would be tiny. Let's face it, car springs really don't sag over time, and almost never fail, and they probably go through millions of compression / extension cycles and over a far greater range of movement than the minor flex seen at the surface of the machine where the group is bolted on.


As per DaveC's pictures, Paolo has even allowed for the possibility that slight movement might fatigue the group water supply by incorporating a longer pipe with a bend that can absorb the very minor movement and avoid loading other components. I can assure you that no such engineering consideration has gone into the water pipe going from the boiler to the group on my Strega. It takes the shortest route, and one that would maximise the risk of fatigue failure. And it has never failed.


Someone suggested adding weight - it has really nothing to do with weight per se as long as the back of teh machine is staying on the bench.


You could reduce flex by adding more rigidity to the front panel. But it is a trade-off - doing so will make it heavier, and cost more for the materials and engineering, all to fix a 'problem' that is essentially one only of aesthetics. And that would reduce the flex only - there would still be movement.


I think we are missing what is important here. I have been looking for an 'upgrade' from my Strega for a few years now, without finding anything that really represented an upgrade for me. My Strega has PID control of the cartridge heated group and PID control of the boiler, plus a few other less significant mods. The Vesuvius Leva is a genuinely significant evolutionary step that combines the best of the old lever charm and technology (LSM group), with the best of modern control systems and technology - in particular the PID control of group temperature, and of both boilers. It is the upgrade I have been looking for, and will enable me to gain a level of control that I could never do with the Strega, even my modded one.

A minor aesthetic 'issue' most people probably won't notice that is common to pretty much every domestic lever machine, and for the Vesuvius Leva is probably less than in most of them, doesn't change any of that - it is an awesome effort by Paolo, with DaveC's help, to produce this extraordinary machine and make it available to us at a genuinely very competitive price.

Thanks for your great work Paolo and DaveC, and I look forward to reading and watching people's experiences with their new machines, and especially for the time when my batch 2 machine makes it all the way to Australia.

Enjoy your new machines guys!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I'm really excited about my machine that I already bought all accessories available including some baskets. 1 ims and 4 LF from cafeparts. Share links to the single ims baskets if you find them please. I plan on doing both single and double shots using the same grind size.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> I'm really excited about my machine that I already bought all accessories available including some baskets. 1 ims and 4 LF from cafeparts. Share links to the single ims baskets if you find them please. I plan on doing both single and double shots using the same grind size.


 This is one which is very small

B661TH25M (7/8g)

https://www.imsfiltri.com/filtri/b661th25m/

And this one (14/18g)

https://www.imsfiltri.com/filtri/b662th26m/

Can't seem to find in-between easily..


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> This is one which is very small
> 
> B661TH25M (7/8g)
> 
> ...


 Thanks 🙋🏻‍♂️ I found it on a uk store which offers international shipping too


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I have some observations to make about the baskets.

If you look closer in the hole patterns some of the baskets have no holes at the wall edge. This is a good and a bad thing. A good thing for not so great grinder cause you grind coarser (since less holed suface) but a bad thing about extracting higher for light to medium roasts, because if you dump the puck and look at the bottom you get a black under extracted ring because there are no holes there.

A conical shaped basket with holes at the edge would be ideal, they are made for smaller doses too (12-14g) but I do not know if something like this exists for 54mm.

The ims basket for breville (new released some months ago) looks good, with holes at the edge.

There are others baskets that I found that look promising, I believe they are for spaziale but dont know if they fit into the PF.

Remember, you are pressing with 10-11 bar of force into a really small puck, if you are using a low dose, the chance of something not holding increases, so channeling is more present. A higher dose helps, not only grinders but extraction too.

The advantage of 54mm or smaller diameter groups/baskets is the height of the puck compared to 58mm. This diminishes the chance of channeling, so putting a small dose into this is taking that advantage away.

LE: something like this:

https://www.amazon.com/Filter-Basket-2-Cup-Spaziale/dp/B0123GKI64


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, in the 3 months I was without a machine, I started to stockpile coffee beans. I have a cheap vacuum sealer

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B07WQW7S7K/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

but it works really well and I have tried beans a month old at sealing then3 months later, as indeed I am doing now. Anyway, I decided that I used to like Brazilian beans so as roasters have been putting them on offer I have bought. But, I am now finding my tastebuds have changed and they do nothing to me. The result is I have around 6 kilos of stuff to plough through before I can get into stuff I am yet to buy but I know I like.

My breakfast cuppa was a Brazilian (I forgot to write what it was on the label!), 20 gms in 40 out in milk. Iy was actually horrible! So, am having the same recipe now as an americano and it is drinkable, but I need to go back to 18 gms. The point of this though, is to say I weighed out 40 gms then collected another 29 gms as discharge, so a anyone asking if you can pull high volume shots, then I presume the answer is yes!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> sealing then3 months later,


 Do you freeze them or put them in the fridge or just store in a cupboard?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MediumRoastSteam Once sealed, into a drawer or dark cupboard. When you suck all the air out, there is nothing for the bean to react to or stale. What I would say, is once I open a pack up, I try to use them within 3 or 4 days. No scientific reason for that by the way!

PM me your address and I will send you a bag sealed ages ago for you to see


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Denis Sgreat observations! I have a monolith max with the new Shuriken light medium burrs and a helor 106 but I'd really like to make single shots work. Let's keep looking for what you mentioned holes at the sides (I get the black ring I always get it with the robot). I'm looking forward to your findings.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S Always interesting to hear an experienced 54mm user offer thoughts. it is my first use of the smaller basket and I suspect I will be learning to get the best out of them for some time yet. I have just ordered an IMS 14/18 gm basket, simply because the supplied basket with 18 gms in is barely half full. Whether this has any effect on the shot remains to be seen.

This may have been mentioned before, but I also have an L1 to compare to. On the L1 when you pull the shot you need to keep the strength of pull going until you reach the half way point, then it decreases. On the EVo, it takes a fair bit more grunt to get it going but as soon as it starts to move, the amount of effort required seems to diminish. Perhaps those who understand these things can tell me if I am imagining it or not!


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Denis S said:


> I have some observations to make about the baskets.
> 
> If you look closer in the hole patterns some of the baskets have no holes at the wall edge. This is a good and a bad thing. A good thing for not so great grinder cause you grind coarser (since less holed suface) but a bad thing about extracting higher for light to medium roasts, because if you dump the puck and look at the bottom you get a black under extracted ring because there are no holes there.
> 
> ...


 Thanks Denis - also very interested in finding effective lower dose baskets

I found the 58mm La Marzocco competition 7g basket, within deep central well to maintain puck depth and so integrity(?) to work really well with the DE1+, with a tamper fitted to the central well


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@Holonomic

https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x2hwqnq


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

TomR said:


> I found the 58mm La Marzocco competition 7g basket


 If that's the same as the VST 7g, then as far as single baskets go, that's the one to go. The central well is 49mm wide. So, approx 4.5mm perimeter on a 58mm system. The LSM group is 53mm, so that perimeter all of a sudden is reduced to 2mm. In my opinion, for the LSM group, if you just find a shallower 54mm basket you are a winner.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

We need to organise some kind of coffee fest.. instead of "bring a bottle" it'll be "bring a Leva, your favourite beans, and may be a grinder"

What do you think?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> We need to organise some kind of coffee fest.. instead of "bring a bottle" it'll be "bring a Leva, your favourite beans, and may be a grinder"
> 
> What do you think?


 I can bring the coffee and the grinder, but won't be able to bring a Leva! 😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> We need to organise some kind of coffee fest.. instead of "bring a bottle" it'll be "bring a Leva, your favourite beans, and may be a grinder"
> 
> What do you think?


 You're all welcome at my place...but you would have to use old Frankenstein, unless someone with a future Double Rupture wants to bring their Evo Leva.

Blindfolds may need to be worn, or i'll cover stuff your not means to see with towels...which includes the machines. 🤣


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> You're all welcome at my place...but you would have to use old Frankenstein, unless someone with a future Double Rupture wants to bring their Evo Leva.
> 
> Blindfolds may need to be worn, or i'll cover stuff your not means to see with towels...which includes the machines. 🤣


 I'm 100% up for it.. how many can you accomodate? (If you are serious!) We could ask @Paolo_Cortese to provide a couple of Demo machines maybe and some of the advertising partners could provide coffee samples. Oh what fun!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Columbia Buena Vista Washed. 17.5grms > 36grms. PI 15 secs. Total shot time 35 secs. Shot temp set to 94c.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

One thing we should always call out is vindictiveness, especially where it affects a business, their livelihood and the jobs of its employees. There has been fake account activity on this thread...I cleaned one lot up, but another appeared. *The Vesuvius Evo Leva is clearly triggering some people, which probably means ACS have got it right in terms of appearance, function and price.*

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=846948&embedComment=846948&embedDo=findComment

The references to turf wars and attempt to create a narrative is odd, especially* from a member that joined a few days ago and with only 6 posts at the time. *

I have to wonder at the sort of mentality that drives this behaviour, It's hard to believe people would actually be like this...but then posts like this below (posted 8 July2021) from another forum, make me realise, some people have unpleasant agendas.

























*This post got 6 or 7 likes in the end and ran for a few days, before the images were finally removed (presumably by the admins or forum owners).*

It's not even the first occasion, this signature was allowed to run for weeks, I was sent this on 29 may 2021.









The poster of this material, who has never used and at the time seen the Vesuvius Evo Lever, needs to have a hard think about what they post...as should those who "like" such posts.


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> PI 15 secs. Total shot time 35 secs. Shot temp set to 94c.


 Does "total shot time" here mean 15 secs + 20 secs = 35 secs? Or does it mean 35 secs from the time PI ended (ie, not including the 15 secs of PI)?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

mathof said:


> Does "total shot time" here mean 15 secs + 20 secs = 35 secs? Or does it mean 35 secs from the time PI ended (ie, not including the 15 secs of PI)?


 15 secs PI + 20 secs = 35 secs 👍


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> One thing we should always call out it vindictiveness, especially where it affects a business, their livelihood and the jobs of its employees. There has been fake account activity on this thread...I cleaned one lot up, but another appeared. *The Vesuvius Evo Leva is clearly triggering some people, which probably means ACS have got it right in terms of appearance, function and price.*
> 
> View attachment 58047
> 
> ...


 I think it's a badge of honour for ACS, Paolo and Dave to see that some people are spending so much energy and creativity denigrating a company and product.

How the 'flex' situation is played out on forums seems a bit fishy to me. The way the LSM group is built means that there will be some significant stress where it attaches to the body of the machine (this has been the case for... 70 years!). This mechanical stress can be dissipated in various ways, but a very rigid connection to a beefy steel plate -for instance- may not be the ideal solution (it would conduct more heat away from the group, and would transmit the stress elsewhere, potentially in a more problematic or weaker part of the machine). the flex could also be simply hidden away from the user (Some LSM branded machines just do this)... but this isn't ideal either as it makes maintenance and cleaning more difficult.

The people who know better and criticise the Vesuvius EVO Leva should treat it as a complete DIY kit with all required components to build their own chassis and retain all the innovative features of the machine. It's priced fairly well for this market too. One could then use reinforced concrete, granite or any sort of unobtainium and reuse the parts in the kit to build a better machine (Ok, they'll have to find a way to hide the oh-so-horrible pressure gage which that have fits with too 🤣)


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> One thing we should always call out it vindictiveness, especially where it affects a business, their livelihood and the jobs of its employees. There has been fake account activity on this thread...I cleaned one lot up, but another appeared. *The Vesuvius Evo Leva is clearly triggering some people, which probably means ACS have got it right in terms of appearance, function and price.*
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=846948&embedComment=846948&embedDo=findComment
> 
> ...


 I just wish I had this much free time on my hands 🤣🤣


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Eiffel said:


> I think it's a badge of honour for ACS, Paolo and Dave to see that some people are spending so much energy and creativity denigrating a company and product.
> 
> How the 'flex' situation is played out on forums seems a bit fishy to me. The way the LSM group is built means that there will be some significant stress where it attaches to the body of the machine (this has been the case for... 70 years!). This mechanical stress can be dissipated in various ways, but a very rigid connection to a beefy steel plate -for instance- may not be the ideal solution (it would conduct more heat away from the group, and would transmit the stress elsewhere, potentially in a more problematic or weaker part of the machine). the flex could also be simply hidden away from the user (Some LSM branded machines just do this)... but this isn't ideal either as it makes maintenance and cleaning more difficult.
> 
> The people who know better and criticise the Vesuvius EVO Leva should treat it as a complete DIY kit with all required components to build their own chassis and retain all the innovative features of the machine. It's priced fairly well for this market too. One could then use reinforced concrete, granite or any sort of unobtainium and reuse the parts in the kit to build a better machine (Ok, they'll have to find a way to hide the oh-so-horrible pressure gage which that have fits with too 🤣)


 Ironically someone did do this (LSM group + concrete) as a DIY project in 2016. Looks nice, but not really easy to put into production.

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/la-san-marco-open-source-lever-machine-t41565.html


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I just wish I had this much free time on my hands 🤣🤣


 What's that saying about idle hands and the devil........ 🤣


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> Ironically someone did do this (LSM group + concrete) as a DIY project in 2016. Looks nice, but not really easy to put into production.
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/levers/la-san-marco-open-source-lever-machine-t41565.html


 Yes, but it has some flex too 😂🤣, and plain concrete works only on compression, so this isn't good enough either 😋. At least getting the parts for such a projet is now much easier!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I read many forums in 5 languages, I am on reddit, discord and other things related to coffee.

I dont understand why people take their time to comment on something they dont like. I see people say the gauge is ruining the machine, but little they know about the importance fo that pressure gauge.

The gauge gives you a direct feedback on what's going on inside the puck.

On my Pepinas I would have that retrofitted and it would give me real info. So no way I would consider getting this without a manometer. It was on top 3 reasons why to buy it, along with the gear pump regulating preinfusion and pid on boilers/heated group.

Little do people know and trash talk a product easily, but here from a perspective of someone outside UK, I was always intrigued by getting a Lever machine, but everytime I would find something it would miss a lot of what I need to make my coffee, am rest assured I'm not the guy who doses/pulls 1-2 and puts milk over it, no no no. Every lever I would consider had always lacking stuff, so I had to retrofit stuff to make it work, the closes to what I needed was a Brunetti Aurora but that demands for water line connection and heat time of 45 min+ with pretty big boilers (i'm doing 1-2 coffees per day max).

Let me put it straight, for the haters, so we know exactly why is this a really really attractive machine for someone from Europe or a country that is outside UK and pays taxes/customs.

I almost go a Londinium but for the LR24 I do pay for a new unit ~4200 euro with customs/taxes to Austria. There is some discount if I pay with a way they prefere but that's like 5-10% still ~4k or close.

Now here I get a machine that for me and for my coffees is way superior to the Londinium, for advanced light roast espresso.

I get fast heat time, with stainless boilers, with precise temp control on 2 boilers+group, with a possibility to have higher brew pressure if needed in brew with a commercial group for 2650 euro shipped to my door.

So we are talking about 4200euro versus 2650 euro (with more features for my needs)= 1550 euro difference.

With 1550 euro I can pay a new Lagom P64, or buy a Niche and a G-iota and mod it with ssp/align/3d prints.

Let the haters talk about stupid things like pressure gauges, and noises, and tilts while pulling the lever. We enjoy our machine and they dont, and they get nothing, only frustration. dont give them attention and let the admins take care of them.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S Well said....


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)




----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Dave, Paolo and team: Massive congratulations on pulling this off. Well done.🙂

On a side note, it will be great if one of the owners post a like for like comparison of shots on the IMS vs the stock. I will never be a super taster. However, I do want an ability to pull 14-15 g on a double basket, which may be too small on the stock basket.

I also have another request. I only have a JX pro. I do not know who has got both JX pro and also an electric grinder. If not a big trouble, could I also request a comparative shot on the leva please ?

Thanks.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> @Holonomic
> 
> https://www.dailymotion.com/embed/video/x2hwqnq


 So a head of their time )


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> do not know who has got both JX pro and also an electric grinder. If not a big trouble, could I also request a comparative shot on the leva please


 I don't live many miles away from you. PM me, I can always bring the Niche around and some coffee one afternoon. 👍 - I could suggest the opposite, but I think the logistics could be tricky! 😂


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Reading thru the thread after a couple of days of not having a look.

Seriously wtf is going on here, people really need to get a life.

In other news, I wonder what's the hold up with Dhl. Customs charge paid for. Oh well, maybe the universe is trying to teach me patience.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@hysaf Probably Monday or Tuesday for delivery....unless they nick it. 🤣


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

He needs reassuring not feeding his paranoia😀


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't live many miles away from you. PM me, I can always bring the Niche around and some coffee one afternoon. ???? - I could suggest the opposite, but I think the logistics could be tricky! ????


 Thanks for the offer. Very nice of you. Let the covid 19 situation stabilise. I will PM you then and go from there.

Re-opposite :










Edit: I'm on the second batch, 6th position. We have got plenty of time ????


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@DavecUKthat kind of reaction should be expected by competitors. ACS has made the dream machine which works and looks great so why wouldn't they feel sour about it and try to dish it whenever they find a chance to! Their own costumers are talking about this machine which confirms that it's way better than theirs. Expect more of this aggressive behavior in the next months trying to diminish the great work done by you and Paolo. The Evo Leva speaks for itself louder than you think and judging by their attempts it looks like the Evo Leva is already a huge success. The First Dual Boiler Lever Machine on the Market. This sentence alone hurts their feelings 😂 let alone the more expensive group head, better build quality and the unmatched price even with their single boiler machine. 
Thanks @DavecUKand @Paolo_Cortesefor making a dream come true.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

I'm happy that there are people that spent time and effort to say something bad on this machine, it means that the machine move a sort of interest in any way and I can say only thank you. I'm a fan of sailboat and all the time that someone try to sell an used boat the 90% of the reply are "it's expensive and out of market" or "the price is too low for sure there is a problem". So finally the people that not say anything are the one interested. I can imagine that there are a lot of people that spent hours and hours in the back of a pc writing something just to fill part of their day. There also a lot of engineers that speak of pressure, temperature and so on but do other things. Finally there are people that don't know that the water can go over 100 C and one day decide to build coffee machines. The only thing that I can say is that If you are not interest in one machine for any reason it doesn't matter, don't read and reply this is time that you subtract to read and write other thing more interesting, especially if the people speak but not to find a solution.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I think it workss both ways there are people actively trying to premote alot of new users appeared as soon as this machine came about... Then theres also those with loyalty to other manufacturers.

I dont get this facination its almost cult like. If you have one brand then the other is terrible... Personally its not the machine for me the pump noise is to intense for my sensitive ears, but then the lr is the same annoying noisy pump. Why i went for a lr24


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> I dont get this facination its almost cult like. If you have one brand then the other is terrible...


 I don't get this either - almost childlike behaviour. I have an original L1 and an ACS Vesuvius and the customer service has been excellent on both with Paolo and Reiss going above and beyond.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake Shame you have sensitive ears Jake......it precludes you from some fine kit matey. I have a picture of your donning headphones or fluffy ear muffs in order to. make a cuppa!


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

So, seeing all the Evo's turning up made me slightly jealous and I went a head and set he Vostok up - it is set up in a temparary manner, on an off cut of work top place over the dishwasher and wine fridge, drain is going into a bucket (will plumb this in next week though), it is however being fed by the osmio HT+.

I had a couple of issue with the drip tray, still not sure if I have fully resolved this but I am probably just missing something obvious 

I have pulled one shot and one shot only, 17g from the niche - random setting which was used a few weeks back on the brewtus. Beans are getting on a bit, 3 weeks +, prep/tamp was awful! I was genuinely only pulling the shot... because.. well I wanted to try it out, I was ready to throw it in the sink. Despite the above, the shot however was without a doubt the best espresso I have made at home, I was genuinely quite shocked - so much so I drank it as an espresso (I steamed some milk and that went down the sink instead! - Note: the milk was velvet and perfect micro foam, the steam is quite intimidating though!)

I think I have much to learn with this machine and excited to see the results once I have fresh beans, better prep and skill.

I did/do have one slight problem and that is I can't seem to get the drip tray to sit correctly, something which I will undoubtable resolve in the morning and I am sure it is user error.

If the Evo is half as good as this (which considering it is pretty much the same machine, just in a more sensible offering I do not think any one will be disappointed. Yes, even the Vostok has a bit of flex


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> I think it workss both ways there are people actively trying to premote alot of new users appeared as soon as this machine came about... Then theres also those with loyalty to other manufacturers.
> 
> I dont get this facination its almost cult like. If you have one brand then the other is terrible... Personally its not the machine for me the pump noise is to intense for my sensitive ears, but then the lr is the same annoying noisy pump. Why i went for a lr24


 I was sold on a londinium at first and would be happy with one - I recommended yours to my brother when you were thinking of selling as I have no problem with them - excellent machines. Then went full bore on the internet research, and after a while was sold on the izzo leva because it was silent and the LSM group. I would have preferred rotary or even better zero sound, and so completely with you. Then I saw this machine and was sold on the combination of features like the group manometer, and energy efficiency is a bit of a thing for me (OCD style).

Anyway the point being - I'm relatively new user, who thinks that all the levers are great. Yes I'm biased, and very much looking forward to this one, but I would be very pleased with any of the others. In fact part of me is very tempted by the oe-1 which I've been watching for months - just got to find some money down the sofa as hobby is bankrupting me!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The 54mm baskets require you to act differently, but after just a few days, I am in autopilot and do. to need to stop and think. I go for the preinfuse until first drips appear as that way you know the puck is ready......good luck!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @Cuprajake Shame you have sensitive ears Jake......it precludes you from some fine kit matey. I have a picture of your donning headphones or fluffy ear muffs in order to. make a cuppa!


 Unless Jake considers replacing the pump with a quieter one (assuming it is possible)! ????


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Different ships, different captains. Having had a variety of machines over the years, pump noise has never been an issue for me. Probably too many years working on the doors in clubs! Without a shadow of doubt, the most pleasing combo was a plumbed in L1 from a noise perspective but nowadays I cannot. I do not find the pump on the Evo noisy but who am I to say it is not.....just a shame such a small issue stops you from owning one


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I don't mean to say that flex is a problem as I'm one of the first batcher who can't wait to receive his outstanding piece of machinery, but if this bothers some potential customers, a relatively easy and inexpensive way of reducing it would be to have the strengthening plate turned around 90 degrees with the two flanges running vertically as close as possible to the group and running for the full length of the front panel. I appreciate that this might be not compatible with the layout of the internals, but I thought that it could be worth suggesting it anyway to @Paolo_Cortese.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee Different ships, different captains. Having had a variety of machines over the years, pump noise has never been an issue for me. Probably too many years working on the doors in clubs! Without a shadow of doubt, the most pleasing combo was a plumbed in L1 from a noise perspective but nowadays I cannot. I do not find the pump on the Evo noisy but who am I to say it is not.....just a shame such a small issue stops you from owning one


 Almost made a comment about the pump noise, I actually was put off by the noise of the pump in the prototype videos but it does seem much quieter now in the production machines. Something worth mentioning about the noise though, the noises you hear in the videos is not just the pump but also the noise of the water in the group head - I may try and get a video of what I mean to compare the sound but listening to the videos after playing with the vostok I can hear the same sound which the Vostok makes in the Evo videos (which I wrongfully assumed was the pump noise!)


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

See and thats my point having a dig because i said i didn't like the sound of the pump..

I had an acs minima which is vibe pump. Great machine had it had a quieter pump like the marax has id of kept it, with the flow control added it was awesome

The gear pumps may be awsome but they are quite noisy imo

Rotarys can be hit and miss, you watch some vids of ecm, lelit, la marazocco and some are silent and others noisy and this is across all boards

Plumbing isnt alway an option. Luckily with my old londinium the pump only runs to fill the boiler so 5 seconds at a time.

I had a bad experience withy recent londinium and crem recently. So im not buying new for a while till i see some long ish term reviews now.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee Different ships, different captains. Having had a variety of machines over the years, pump noise has never been an issue for me. Probably too many years working on the doors in clubs! Without a shadow of doubt, the most pleasing combo was a plumbed in L1 from a noise perspective but nowadays I cannot. I do not find the pump on the Evo noisy but who am I to say it is not.....just a shame such a small issue stops you from owning one


 Got to admit I'm with Jake re. Noise - little things can drive me insane. I had to completely rebuild our mvhr because of the noise that no-one else in the family could hear - they thought I was mad - totally silent now which is great for me.

Gear pump is fine for me for the foreseeable, but If I could mod a few years from now I'd consider it - I love the quietness of a rotary.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake Do not think I had a dig Jake......quite the contrary, however, I can tell you that the 5 seconds your L1 makes a noise for, is far longer and louder than the Evo!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> See and thats my point having a dig because i said i didn't like the sound of the pump..


 Your comment about pump noise is perfectly fair and reasonable Jake. I would say the Evo is comparable to the Londinium R (not the 24).


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Evo pump comes on during pre-infusion and once set bar pressure is achieved, the rest of the shot is silent.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Isn't this thread supposed to be about the Evo Leva? If I was interested in a single boiler dipper or a single boiler heat exchanger I would get one but I'm interested in a dual boiler lever which means better drier steam for me.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> pump on the Evo noisy


 I am sure it will be quieter than Minima's.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@MW11 its a brand new lever to the market, its going to be compared to others on the market. Thats only natural

You yourself have compared it to the londinium. Well said it was better but we all know you dont get on with the owner. I kinda agree with you on that. Now


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

rusty pie said:


> I don't mean to say that flex is a problem as I'm one of the first batcher who can't wait to receive his outstanding piece of machinery, but if this bothers some potential customers, a relatively easy and inexpensive way of reducing it would be to have the strengthening plate turned around 90 degrees with the two flanges running vertically as close as possible to the group and running for the full length of the front panel. I appreciate that this might be not compatible with the layout of the internals, but I thought that it could be worth suggesting it anyway to @Paolo_Cortese.


 I was trying to get my head round this out of pure technical interest. From @DavecUK posted cad drawing earlier rotating that would move the mounts for the pump. I think pulling the lever forward pushes on the lower two bolts which are in the middle of the plate, rotating around the top as an axis. If I had a metalworks shop I'd would want two cross beams to the uprights and mount the group on that. Then a triangle of Beams front to back. But it'd probably still flex so then I'd pour the concrete 😉


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@danielpugh noise is very subjective, i have very good hearing. Esp with high frequency, sibilant sound.

I can hear electric motors, fridge freezer etc 🤣 its my superpower...

Its why i sold the minima, i looked it changing the pump but didnt want to rip a brand new machine to bit, shame the Elizabeth is so appliance looking at in a nicer dress she'd be a stunner.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> @MW11 its a brand new lever to the market, its going to be compared to others on the market. Thats only natural
> 
> You yourself have compared it to the londinium. Well said it was better but we all know you dont get on with the owner. I kinda agree with you on that. Now


 Now I like you mate 😂 my experience with Reiss was very disappointing and unprofessional! After seeing this thread I was still going to buy his machine (based on KafaTek's recommendation) and went on his live chat support on his website and asked about his machine compared to this and if I should buy his instead then he turned completely defensive and was very impolite. I still have all his answers in my mailbox. On the contrary look at Paolo's response here and in dms! I asked him the same question and he was very polite and didn't say anything bad about any other machine at all! I even gave him a hard time about the 3 pids in direct messages and he was very patient and polite as he was before. So yes I chose Paolo not because he made the better machine which he clearly did but based on his personality too! I'd like to do business with a guy who is respectful and patient (no more dealing with hotheads or A-holes thanks).


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> @danielpugh noise is very subjective, i have very good hearing. Esp with high frequency, sibilant sound.
> 
> I can hear electric motors, fridge freezer etc 🤣 its my superpower...
> 
> Its why i sold the minima, i looked it changing the pump but didnt want to rip a brand new machine to bit, shame the Elizabeth is so appliance looking at in a nicer dress she'd be a stunner.


 I have something similar - wierdly it has been helped by tinnitus (now that ive acclimated - at first it was hell). Having to upgrade laptop because of coil whine - 50/50 whether the new one arrives with it pre-enabled...not as bad as trying to fix transformer sounds all through the house (toothbrush charging sockets is not what I want to spend my life researching 😉


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> electric motors,


 Hope we are excluding this! ????


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@danielpughI used to have a profitec pro 800 which had a vibe pump. Believe me you get used to it and will never think about it. You will enjoy the process and the results right from the start.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> @danielpughI used to have a profitec pro 800 which had a vibe pump. Believe me you get used to it and will never think about it. You will enjoy the process and the results right from the start.


 I was very much liking the look of that too at a point in the past - I have plumbed mains so would have been silent. Don't worry - I'll be fine with gear pump - it's just a few seconds. Plus a few years in a mod may appear. The fluidotech rotary pump in the crem one looks like it might be a similar size to the gear pump so I can dream😉


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh unless the for pump used in the Crem is restricted and run about 18 instead of 24v it's noisy, and probably won't fill the group fast enough. However there may be quieter pumps that can be found with the right characteristics in future.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

After three days with an Evo​


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

my kinda noisy evo..


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Are there any with the gs3 wands in the wild yet.

Think they make the look of the machine


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

That's how I've ordered mine but it hasn't yet made its way down under.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Anyone know what their brew boiler was set to out of the factory? I changed mine in error and would like to put it back to a base mark of the shot I pulled earlier <3


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> I was trying to get my head round this out of pure technical interest. From @DavecUK posted cad drawing earlier rotating that would move the mounts for the pump. I think pulling the lever forward pushes on the lower two bolts which are in the middle of the plate, rotating around the top as an axis. If I had a metalworks shop I'd would want two cross beams to the uprights and mount the group on that. Then a triangle of Beams front to back. But it'd probably still flex so then I'd pour the concrete 😉


 I hope I'm not going to bore people to death by going too technical, but I am thinking of a way or reducing the flex without adding much in terms of structure.

Currently the strengthening bracket reacts in torsion to the overturning moment introduced by cocking the lever. Open section beams (such a c-section bracket) are much stiffer in bending compared to torsion.

If the bracket is turned 90 degrees to have vertical flanges running for the full height of the front panel picking up directly on the top and bottom plate, the bracket would react in bending instead of torsion. The flanges would have to be uninterrupted, i.e. without cutouts like in the cad model.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> I'm 100% up for it.. how many can you accomodate? (If you are serious!) We could ask @Paolo_Cortese to provide a couple of Demo machines maybe and some of the advertising partners could provide coffee samples. Oh what fun!


 I can accommodate lots of people... Late summer to Autumn


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Holonomic said:


> Anyone know what their brew boiler was set to out of the factory? I changed mine in error and would like to put it back to a base mark of the shot I pulled earlier ❤


 probably 102, doesn't matter, try it at 8-10C higher than the group....All temperatures shown are actual temps. Then use the advice in the user guide I wrote to fine tune it. The brew boiler (if not too far out) only has a minor initial effect on brew temp, which is tightly controlled by the group heaters.


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> probably 102, doesn't matter, try it at 8-10C higher than the group....All temperatures shown are actual temps. Then use the advice in the user guide I wrote to fine tune it. The brew boiler (if not too far out) only has a minor initial effect on brew temp, which is tightly controlled by the group heaters.


 Cheers Dave - your guide is indeed VERY good - thank you for that.

I am looking forward for some fresh beans to turn up, I have a 2 different Burundi's turning up so I shall be able to (hopefully) to dial those in. I am going to be getting a new tamper and probably an IMS filter basket ASAP, although the tamper which was included serves a purpose there is a fair bit of wiggle room and I do not seem to be able to get decent puck prep with it (user error!).

The shots I pulled this AM were pretty good and made a fine milk drink, I think the other half is happy with the purchase too!


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

With the group being a big chunk of metal, how does it react to temp changes?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Two group heaters are, I think, 200 watts combined so they do a good job getting the group up to and maintaining set temp. Takes 15 mins from cold to get to 93-64c


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Sorry, should of been clearer, i ment once up to temp say 94 if you wanted to drop to say 92 for a darker roast. I presume it would heat up quick due to the way the groups heated.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

For my own understanding, does the back to back shots at two different temp especially at 94 for the first and 92 for the second require additional waiting time as the group head drops back to 92.? I'm sure it is a matter of a few mins, even in the case of a reverse (92 to 94). I imagine the group head will be ready by the time I am ready to pull the next shot. Thx.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee @Cuprajake Yes, within a few minutes the group will have lost the temperature and be ready for the next shot. Here is an example, where in 45s the group temp drops 1.5C. Obv, you don't have to switch the group off for this to happen, just set your new temperature....


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> Sorry, should of been clearer, i ment once up to temp say 94 if you wanted to drop to say 92 for a darker roast. I presume it would heat up quick due to the way the groups heated.


 Group heaters take the group from 92c to 94c in 20secs and 32 secs to drop back from 94c to 92c after resetting the desired temp.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

> 10 minutes ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> @Like Medium Strong Coffee @Cuprajake Yes, within a few minutes the group will have lost the temperature and be ready for the next shot. Here is an example, where in 45s the group temp drops 1.5C. Obv, you don't have to switch the group off for this to happen, just set your new temperature....


 Wow! It's probably going to take more time for me to dial in for the next shot than this! Thx Dave for the awesome video. Can't wait for my machine. 😂


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just pulled the nicest decaf espresso I can remember having. The beans were Extract Sugarcane decaf, 18 gm in around 36 out at 93 degrees. I detected notes of citrus I have never experienced before in this bean, so am looking forward to trying another one shortly! When I say the nicest decaf I can remember, I really mean it! I cannot offer any explanation of course, but to future owners, this maybe something you can look forward to


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 - Did you grind a tad finer than a normal espresso grind ? Thx


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee I definitely grind decaf finer than non decaf but the Evo does not equire as fine a grind as my last lever needed.......which I cannot really understand. Also, I used to dose at 15 gm and have happily moved up to 18 now


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I should add, having the ability to vary brew temp by 0.5 degree at a time does let you play both with accuracy and the ability to detect whether it makes any difference, in a way that machines without dual boilers and pid's can only dream about. I was sceptical that 0.5 degree either way, could make much of a difference to a beans characteristics......wrong!


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> For my own understanding, does the back to back shots at two different temp especially at 94 for the first and 92 for the second require additional waiting time as the group head drops back to 92.? I'm sure it is a matter of a few mins, even in the case of a reverse (92 to 94). I imagine the group head will be ready by the time I am ready to pull the next shot. Thx.


 I've heard of people putting a wet cloth on the grouphead to cool it down quicker, but sounds like the EVO is pretty quick anyway.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee I definitely grind decaf finer than non decaf but the Evo does not equire as fine a grind as my last lever needed.......which I cannot really understand. Also, I used to dose at 15 gm and have happily moved up to 18 now


 Thank you David! I wonder why the Evo doesn't require as fine a grind as your other lever. Is it because of an accurate control and a stability of the group, the basket, the double spring vs a single? Dave may be able to throw some light on this.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> was sceptical that 0.5 degree either way, could make much of a difference to a beans characteristics......wrong!


 What was the group head temperature then, relative to non-decaf please ? Did you mark up by 0.5 deg higher ?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It's a sum of factors:

-grouphead/baskets are 54mm vs 58mm (the smaller the diameter the coarser you grind/taller the bed).

- flow in preinfusion (a gear pump can push more liters/min than a dipper/hx or a vibe pump).

- pressure in brew (2 springs that deliver 10-11 bar brew shots apply more force, thus more compression in the puck, keeping it tight, compared to a 8 bar 1 spring lever).

Headspace plays an important role too in grind size and how the shot behaves.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Depth of puck versus wider puck with less depth, but that is as far as my physics goes!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee went from 92.5 to 93. It was nice at 92.5 but that extra half a degree just brought something orangey I think that I had not detected before


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Headspace plays an important role too in grind size and how the shot behaves.


 Thanks Denis!

So, keeping everything except the dosage constant, what would happen to the notes and taste on the cup if we were to pull a shot on the stock double basket, say 15g vs the standard 18g? I understand that taste is relative and one may need to be a super taster to pick the difference. Just an academic question.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

you have to test it, I dont have the machine yet.

15 g dose is finer grind than 18g dose, unless the baskets take account for that and have different hole surface (normally they dont).

A finer grind is much prone to channeling, specially if the grinder is not the greatest, or good, and a finer grind has more surface to extract from, so you end up with higher extractions, that in some let's say medium to dark roasts are not something you want, unless you pull a bit shorter ratios then it's fine.

Maybe with 15g dose if you pull 32g out the aftertaste will be a bit off, spicy, biterish, dry, but if you pull 26 g out from a specific roast you will enjoy it more.

From 18g you might like 36 g out or even 40g cause of slower extraction and coarser grind.

Normally depending on grinder ofc (some grinds much much finer SSP for example) you want to play with higher doses or smaller doses. For darker roasts I get better results in higher doses instead of grinding really fine with small doses.

The shots made from 18-20g for robusta or darker roasts are more velvety, richer, and rounder overall. So I am a bit against smaller doses, depends on coffee, type, your taste. For my coffee I do like 17-18g doses but on 58mm with profiling.

17-18g on 58mm is not equivalent with 17-18g on 54mm, I dont know right now what the difference but for 45mm it was 12g equivalent to 20g on 58mm. I hope you understand what i'm trying to say with the last sentence.

54mm is more forgiving with smaller doses.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Denis S said:


> A finer grind is much prone to channeling, specially if the grinder is not the greatest, or good, and a finer grind has more surface to extract from, so you end up with higher extractions,


 It's worth bearing in mind, surface area has no mass and cannot be extracted. If you halve the average diameter of the particles you decrease the volume of the average sized particles to 1/8th.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> It's worth bearing in mind, surface area has no mass and cannot be extracted. If you halve the average diameter of the particles you decrease the volume of the average sized particles to 1/8th.


 Thanks Mark!








????

Please keep it simple for an average Joe like me!


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Without getting drawn into the, excuse the language, ******* match on this thread it has highlighted to me that there seem to be fake accounts on the "pro" side of the argument. I have seen at least two accounts which have been created in the last few months and have only posted on this thread. It seems obvious to me that they have been created only to help feed the buzz around this machine, which if the topic was anything financial, would lead to serious repercussions

I don't know who is behind them and I wouldn't want to speculate but it might be worth the mods looking into it as this thread seems to descending from discourse into polemic at times.

*Mods Note: We restored this post because the member concerned was speculating, without justification or evidence. See this post for an explanation*

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=847360&embedComment=847360&embedDo=findComment


----------



## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Where did my post go? I sent the mods a PM that something was rotten in Denmark yesterday and it was ignored. So posted the content of that PM here on this thread and instant action to delete my post. Unfortunately I'm not surprised. I don't know what is happening here but I know I don't like it.

*Mods Note: We restored this post because the member concerned posted more incorrect accusations of corruption after being asked not to.*

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=847360&embedComment=847360&embedDo=findComment


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

MWJB said:


> It's worth bearing in mind, surface area has no mass and cannot be extracted. If you halve the average diameter of the particles you decrease the volume of the average sized particles to 1/8th.


 I know you are smart and you understand stuff behind my words. I do not find it constructive to go into the deepest details of why or to explain everything.

Water can penetrate into a particle and wash at about 100 microns in. If you have a round particle with 200 microns diameter you can pretty much wash it entirely. But if you have a 300 micron round particle you can't. A rounder particle since it's bigger has more mass than a elongated/hair/straw like particle.

SSP burrs deliver elongated shaped particles, specially the unimodal ones that people love. A much finger grind that has more surface for the water to go easily in and wash entirely the mass of it, or the volume. The surface I am referring to here, is the exterior contour of the particle, not it's total mass/volume.

People get bored when I go into details, it's not helping anyone, or it's helping 1 people and the rest are scratching their head screaming, can we move over it?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> People get bored when I go into details, it's not helping anyone, or it's helping 1 people and the rest are scratching their head screaming, can we move over it?


 I was scratching my head 🤭


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Denis S said:


> I know you are smart and you understand stuff behind my words. I do not find it constructive to go into the deepest details of why or to explain everything.
> 
> Water can penetrate into a particle and wash at about 100 microns in. If you have a round particle with 200 microns diameter you can pretty much wash it entirely. But if you have a 300 micron round particle you can't. A rounder particle since it's bigger has more mass than a elongated/hair/straw like particle.
> 
> ...


 I'm not that smart. It's just simple logic. The forum is a public discussion, may be helpful to others.

The 100 micron theory was shown to be wrong in 1992 (Zanoni).

You're largely repeating things you have heard, believing them in good faith, but nevertheless they are wrong. Believing wrong stuff isn't helpful for anyone.

What do you want, everyone to just tell you you're great? Not going to happen, I've learned loads by being wrong, it's how we move forward.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> I'm not that smart


 Mark, if you aren't, people like us have no scope! 🤣

This forum is a great place to learn. I have learnt a lot within a few months.

Please keep the discussions rolling guys. However, please do try and elucidate technical jargons, where possible, in simpler terms for people like us.

Thanks!


----------



## biggoldensun (Jun 13, 2021)

Hello,

I got the machine since Thursday. I upgraded from a Faema Faemina from 1958 , which I considered doing really good coffee. Boy, I was wrong. Today I finally managed to hit the sweat spot of this incredible, beautiful machine. And the espresso was unearthly good. I don't want to be too exaggerating, but that clearly was the best espresso I've had in my life so far. And I love to drink espresso, wherever I go. I am extremely jazzed by this machine, which is not doing an incredible job, but is a real looker.

Cheers


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> This forum is a great place to learn. I have learnt a lot within a few months.
> 
> Please keep the discussions rolling guys. However, please do try and elucidate technical jargons, where possible, in simpler terms for people like us.


 I agree, the forum is a great place to learn...I learn new things every day and it helps me design and improve things. We all make mistakes and that's how we learn. No idea or discussion is stupid, they can all give a learning experience. I was doing some prototyping work with a manufacturer the other day and I suggested something, which didn't work at all....that goes hand in hand with the territory...but another idea of mine worked superbly and is being built on.

Sometimes it's hard to keep things simple and sometimes (mostly in the past) it was difficult to disagree whilst keeping it friendly...fortunately this forum has moved beyond that these days..I'm loving reading the discussions, the ideas and the different way people use stuff.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@biggoldensun good to see you on the forum....


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Mark, if you aren't, people like us have no scope! 🤣
> 
> This forum is a great place to learn. I have learnt a lot within a few months.
> 
> ...


 Grinding finer makes the lumps littler, when the lumps are littler the brew needs less water (less time for immersions) to extract the coffee, or can extract the coffee more with the same amount of water. Coffee extraction is transferring some of the mass of solid coffee into liquid.

The lumps are 3 dimensional, so if you half the average diameter, you get lumps 1/8th of the mass of the twice as coarse grinds, but extraction doesn't go up 8 times, only a little (relatively speaking).


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Denis S said:


> you have to test it, I dont have the machine yet.
> 
> 15 g dose is finer grind than 18g dose, unless the baskets take account for that and have different hole surface (normally they dont).
> 
> ...


 Denis you are absolutely right. Thicker puck (filter cake) should be responsible for higher resistance, i.e. less permeability. This is why you can pull a shot with 54 mm basket with 15 g that you could not with 58 mm basket (you could of course but it would be gushing through). The permeability is directly proportional to the thickness of the cake and provided the size of the particles is the same 54 mm basket would give you higher resistance if you keep the same weight in both. This is stemming from the Darcy's law that @DavecUK has quoted on several occasions.

I cannot believe what a stepwise change in coffee extraction this machine has brought up. If there were a coffee machine innovation award this one surely must get it by miles.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

biggoldensun said:


> Hello,
> 
> I got the machine since Thursday. I upgraded from a Faema Faemina from 1958 , which I considered doing really good coffee. Boy, I was wrong. Today I finally managed to hit the sweat spot of this incredible, beautiful machine. And the espresso was unearthly good. I don't want to be too exaggerating, but that clearly was the best espresso I've had in my life so far. And I love to drink espresso, wherever I go. I am extremely jazzed by this machine, which is not doing an incredible job, but is a real looker.
> 
> Cheers


 Welcome to the forum and congrats on your machine! 
finally someone talking about espresso 😍. Have you tried hot/iced americanos yet? What about the single basket? I saw people on HB talking about single basket shots using Alex Leva (same group head).


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

biggoldensun said:


> Hello,
> 
> I got the machine since Thursday. I upgraded from a Faema Faemina from 1958 , which I considered doing really good coffee. Boy, I was wrong. Today I finally managed to hit the sweat spot of this incredible, beautiful machine. And the espresso was unearthly good. I don't want to be too exaggerating, but that clearly was the best espresso I've had in my life so far. And I love to drink espresso, wherever I go. I am extremely jazzed by this machine, which is not doing an incredible job, but is a real looker.
> 
> Cheers


 great to hear! Which grinder is it paired with, any pictures of your set up?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

If I pack the stock basket with 15g of finely ground coffee vs 18g of a little coarser grind, would there be a little more resistance at 15g than 18g?

I am curious what happens to the extraction, 2) how the mass and surface area differ, 3) how the density of the puck differ and change the cup. I know we can't answer unless we try these on the machine.

Another doubt is what is important - is it the mass or density ?

I would assume other things being equal for these doubts.

Sorry to post such basic questions, which deviate from the main intent of this thread; there is no need to answer if seen not relevant. Thanks


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

MWJB said:


> It's worth bearing in mind, surface area has no mass and cannot be extracted. If you halve the average diameter of the particles you decrease the volume of the average sized particles to 1/8th.


 I'm not taking sides and my knowledge of coffee extraction is well below that of both the parties here, but I'm interested in understanding the physics of the process.

Any chemical and thermodynamics exchange happens through a boundary surface and is somewhat proportional to the area of the surface (that's why radiators have fins). Reducing the average particle size by half reduces the area of the particles to one fourth and the volume to one eighth, so the total area for the same volume (and consequently same mass) is double. Surely this larger exchange area must increase the extraction (or speed of it) to some extent, right?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> If I pack the stock basket with 15g of finely ground coffee vs 18g of a little coarser grind, would there be a little more resistance at 15g than 18g?


 If you overfill the basket you're extraction can drop & sourness creep in. If you underfill the basket, then the puck an be more disturbed prior to full pressure being applied, this might have the same effect, or can make nominal extractions siltier, not increasing extraction, but making it taste a little drier/less acidic at nominal extraction. What is the dose that people are finding works? Use that.

Resistance will depend on grind setting, as much as dose.



Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I am curious what happens to the extraction, 2) how the mass and surface area differ, 3) how the density of the puck differ and change the cup. I know we can't answer unless we try these on the machine.


 18g and 15g have the same mass at whatever grind setting you are at. Forget surface area, concentrate on dose & grind setting. You change puck density by changing dose & grind (assuming nominal tamp, which has a wide tolerance). Changes in the cup will follow extraction yield & non-dissolved solids content...more of both with finer grinds, until extraction peaks, then less extracton, but still more non-dissolved solids (which may counter sourness, or present both bitterness/powderyness & sourness.



Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Another doubt is what is important - is it the mass or density ?


 Appropriate dose, ratio & grind setting are important. Density is a byproduct of dose & grind, mass is mass with a little tolerance from datum. Grind is relative to brew ratio and perceived acidity (finer to tame sourness at a workable ratio for espresso roasts, coarser for longer shots/overly silty shots.

The questions aren't that basic, but more maybe obscuring the wood for the trees?  Coffee brewing is mass transfer - grind follows the amount for brew water used/extraction level required (finer = more extraction/less water, coarser = less extraction/more water). Density relate more to permeability - if you grind too fine & nutate/decrease permeability somehow, extraction will drop. The dose has to be permeable enough to let water pass evenly through it.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

rusty pie said:


> I'm not taking sides and my knowledge of coffee extraction is well below that of both the parties here, but I'm interested in understanding the physics of the process.
> 
> Any chemical and thermodynamics exchange happens through a boundary surface and is somehow proportional to the area of the surface (that's why radiators have fins). Reducing the average particle size by half reduces the area of the particles to one fourth and the volume to one eighth, so the total area for the same volume (and consequently same mass) is double. Surely this larger exchange area must increase the extraction (or speed of it) to some extent, right?


 Coffee particles are not 100% soluble, they're a non-soluble matrix containing pockets of soluble material. The surface area exposed is not all soluble material, like it would be in typical chemical extractions like, for example, sugar or salt in hot water. I guess if it were, we could just keep going finer & finer & extracting more & more, up to 100%...but this doesn't happen.

We're not simply washing the soluble material off the surface of the particles, we're washing it out of the volume/depth too.

In percolation (espresso/drip), the halving of the diameter/quartering of the surface area/reducing volume to 1 eighth allows more material to be extracted in the same mass of solvent, or equivalent material extracted in less solvent, for a similarly soluble coffee (these vary by origin). But coffee extraction being mass transfer exercise, it's the smaller volume that facilitates higher extraction. Area is a 2d concept, area has no mass. But, fair enough, the 3 concepts are inexorably linked given the assumption of average particles being roughly spherical. The only one we can visibly control/observe is grinder setting, this is undoubtedly the aspect of primary focus.

Time is too wide a tolerance for consideration in percolation, more relevance in immersion.

Total surface area may change at finer grinds from one grinder to another, then again it may not due to differences in grind size distribution, it will only change in a linear manner for a given grinder/distribution. We know that grinders have differing distributions & average grind sizes, but still work normally.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@MWJB Thank you so much. Very educative.

Your detailed explanation does raise my analytical curiosity further with respect to the final output. This is in relation to the taller 54 mm stock double basket - I believe is just about a half full (give or take some %) at 18g from the experience of the current owners - vs the IMS double basket. Even if there is a difference, only a super taster may be able to identify the difference and not a normal person like me 😂

I shall have a plenty of time to find out and am sure folks will also chip in with their experiences.

I will digest these slowly and hope to learn more when I have the Evo to play with.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @MWJB Thank you so much. Very educative.
> 
> Your detailed explanation does raise my analytical curiosity further with respect to the final output. This is in relation to the taller 54 mm stock double basket - I believe is just about a half full (give or take some %) at 18g from the experience of the current owners - vs the IMS double basket. Even if there is a difference, only a super taster may be able to identify the difference and not a normal person like me 😂
> 
> ...


 Going by posts on HB related to the izzo leva, I noticed several that said shots worked better when filled up to the point of getting imprinted by the shower screen circlip (I.e. without a gap). Obviously real world testing to prove either way. Am curious whether something like the bplus mesh will change this characteristic (if it exists on this machine)...


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mods have had to remove some posts on this thread that were clearly intent on causing trouble. We have been dismayed at the lengths some will go to, using fake accounts, the publication on another forum of images that mock and denigrate, in an attempt to damage the reputation of ACS and the Vesuvius Evo Leva.

Dave recently called out the behaviour of an ex-forum member who now contributes to another forum. If you check back a few posts on this thread you can see the lengths he went to in an attempt to trash ACS's reputation.

We now have another instance and as with the above, have decided to publish details as it has been taken up by the same ex-forum member (see below).

On June 12 forum member Dallah sent a PM to mods. He was concerned there have been fake accounts (not named) created with the sole intention of posting only 'pro' comments on the Evo Leva thread. Mods checked to see if Dallah's speculation had any merit and concluded there was none.

On June 13 Dallah posted the content of his PM to mods on the Evo Leva thread.



> * 14 hours ago, Dallah said: *https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=findComment&comment=847299
> 
> Without getting drawn into the, excuse the language, ******* match on this thread it has highlighted to me that there seem to be fake accounts on the "pro" side of the argument. I have seen at least two accounts which have been created in the last few months and have only posted on this thread. It seems obvious to me that they have been created only to help feed the buzz around this machine, which if the topic was anything financial, would lead to serious repercussions I don't know who is behind them and I wouldn't want to speculate but it might be worth the mods looking into it as this thread seems to descending from discourse into polemic at times.


 Mods hid the above post and immediately PMd Dallah asking him to be more specific by naming the fake 'pro' accounts. Dallah was asked not to make any further posts on the matter on open forum whilst the mods performed further checks.

He chose not to respect mod guidance and posted the following inflammatory remarks alleging either corruption an/or something being seriously wrong.



> *13 hours ago, Dallah said: *https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=findComment&comment=847303
> 
> Where did my post go? I sent the mods a PM that something was rotten in Denmark yesterday and it was ignored. So posted the content of that PM here on this thread and instant action to delete my post. Unfortunately I'm not surprised. I don't know what is happening here but I know I don't like it.


 After this post he also PMd mods and gave the name one CFUK account as being 'pretty obvious'. We were certain this was a genuine account and asked the member's permission to check personal data with ACS. This was granted. ACS confirmed the member in question is a genuine customer and has placed an order.

If the above is not bad enough, it was seized upon by a member of another forum, making comments that CFUK suppresses 'TRUTH' and encourages fake accounts.

  

CFUK prides itself on being non partisan. Debate and discussion is the life blood of the forum. Members are welcome and encouraged to share their views - to agree and disagree but to do so fairly, respectfully and reasonably in line with the forum guidelines.

This is a new machine to the market which a small minority (outside this forum) seem to strongly object to, presumably because they see it as some sort of threat. We can't do anything about the unsavoury behaviour of this group, except perhaps shine a light on it, rather than let it fester in the darkness.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Less headspace creates more crema and thicker shots, this doesn't mean they are more extracted, it just means the mouthfeel is different. Finer grind less crema (related to more headspace) coarser grind more crema (less headspace).

Decent V1.0 had 6mm more headspace than other machine on the market, and people asked why they have to grind much finer on it. They reduced the headspace starting with v1.1 but it still has more headspace than other machines.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> Going by posts on HB related to the izzo leva, I noticed several that said shots worked better when filled up to the point of getting imprinted by the shower screen circlip (I.e. without a gap). Obviously real world testing to prove either way. Am curious whether something like the bplus mesh will change this characteristic (if it exists on this machine)...


 Depends on what people characterise as "work better" More body and mouthfeel? More extraction yield ?

its easy to say taste better but again, so many variables ( preference and type of coffee used ) that it makes general comments somewhat meaningless without a little more context.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Well after reading the whole thread and emailing Paolo I am officially on the queue for a 110v US version in batch 2.

Now to decide if I want a La Marzocco style steam wand or the other type. What kind have you gone with?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Small water tap and long steam wand.

I know a friend in Vienna got one/payed the deposit and now you in US and I believe the second batch is pretty much full (if it settles to 10 machines max number). I also have 2 or 3 more friends waiting for me to get the machine so they can test it and then they will make their mind if to order or not.

It's either this or Decent and since I will have both it will be easy for them to compare what they like. I strongly believe the decent will fall behind a lot.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mine has the Minima short steam arm. Went for this as it can be tucked away over the drip tray when not needed. When in use, protrudes just enough and at an angle of around 45 degrees to allow your steam jug to fit over it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> It's either this or Decent and since I will have both it will be easy for them to compare what they like.


 That will be an interesting test and I look forward to reading your thoughts down the line.

Suspect the Evo will be compared with other machines as well which will be equally interesting.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh, @Mrboots2u , @MWJB

I understand, with my limited exposure in coffee making, there are too many variables in the mix, which makes the task of deciding which taste better very difficult. If we add the grinder, grind size and the machine, the effort, time and resources spent in deciding these tricky question (or might be silly to some) will push the outcome towards the *** end of diminishing returns.

Some could state that it is the EY, which decides the outcome. This is beyond the affordability range for the majority. The others could make a compelling argument that taste and mouthfeel are the King or Queen. These two are again relative.

Normal people may never be able to differentiate. This may be the case even for some like me. Hence, the reliance on coffee experts to share their experience, which we know they do after pulling comparable shots.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Denis Swould you not think the decent is a totally different machine compared to the leva? ive always been fascinated by them, but the slow steaming and the clicking is not for me


----------



## Holonomic (Mar 3, 2017)

Cuprajake said:


> @Denis Swould you not think the decent is a totally different machine compared to the leva? ive always been fascinated by them, but the slow steaming and the clicking is not for me


 Honestly, I would love to see the comparison between the two - of course they are two massively different machines but I personally was rather close to ordering a decent over the Vostok, the reason I didn't was that although I love the idea of playing with every variable possible I feel I would eventually settle on a single profile (most likely a leaver one judging on the experiences of other users). the key aspect of what I wanted was repeatability less so experimentation.

The other (main) aspect why I didn't go for a decent is the aesthetics doesn't really do it for me. The offerings ACS have do though!


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh, @Mrboots2u , @MWJB
> 
> I understand, with my limited exposure in coffee making, there are too many variables in the mix, which makes the task of deciding which taste better very difficult. If we add the grinder, grind size and the machine, the effort, time and resources spent in deciding these tricky question (or might be silly to some) will push the outcome towards the *** end of diminishing returns.
> 
> ...


 Break things down to their simplest component & function. You have a machine, a grinder & coffee.

The most important variables, in terms of the things you can control, are how much coffee you use, how fine you grind, how much liquid you pull into the cup. Whatever machine you have, it's the same process, the targets may change a little.

EY is a measure of brew efficiency & consistency, it's relevant if you have no other malfunctions and not, by itself, a measure of quality. Every cup has an EY, if it tastes good, the EY is within your preference...even if that is different to the next person. Espresso is the most expensive way to make coffee, I understand not wanting the expense of a refractometer & syringe filters, but it seems an arbitrary preference after spending the best part of £3k? Your costs are still going to rise after purchase in bags of coffee if nothing else. I don't often measure my espresso, nevertheless have found it useful in navigating what works vs myth & legend.

Taste is correlated to EY region of interest, they're complimentary...you make something that tastes nice, then you note the EY, rather than hit an EY and wonder if you like it 

Mouthfeel is the easiest thing to take care of, grind fine & pull short, just try to avoid very silty & sour shots. It is separate to EY & may be detrimental to clarity (accessability of taste).

Normal people can tell the difference between an unpleasant extraction and a tasty one (normal people were the sample for the SCAA/MRI/CBI brewing control chart), anyone can tell if they like/dislike a shot (assuming they like the coffee used - using an ingredient that you prefer is *the* most important thing), like they can with any food/drink. If you have to wonder/ask yourself, then you probably don't like it that much/enough to justify the effort & expense.

If someone else has a different preference to you and is hitting it repeatedly, that's great for them, but not necessarily what you need. That's really where discussions & recommendations can start getting overly specific...we can come to a consensus that a given machine/grinder works as intended, niche (with a small 'n') preferences are less relevant universally, no matter how fascinating.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> If I pack the stock basket with 15g of finely ground coffee vs 18g of a little coarser grind, would there be a little more resistance at 15g than 18g?
> 
> I am curious what happens to the extraction, 2) how the mass and surface area differ, 3) how the density of the puck differ and change the cup. I know we can't answer unless we try these on the machine.
> 
> ...


 I guess these are the fundamental scientific questions that the guys over at Decent are attempting to answer!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Depends on what people characterise as "work better" More body and mouthfeel? More extraction yield ?
> 
> its easy to say taste better but again, so many variables ( preference and type of coffee used ) that it makes general comments somewhat meaningless without a little more context.


 Distracted for an hour while writing below, and many posts - anyway ...

The mention I made re. Hb and baskets It was less to do with flavour and more to do with channelling if I remember correctly. It's in the first post (link below ) here re. "Dose to the circlip".

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/izzo-alex-leva-dosing-baskets-accessories-and-springs-t65129.html

Which in turn referenced/summarised this thread:

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/baskets-and-dose-for-lsm-group-levers-t61507.html

Maybe that is useful I thought. Anyway thereafter - extraction yield/dosage/etc - I'm going to watch this thread closely, and experiment accordingly.

I'm interested particularly on the impact of very large flat grinders say 98mm(i.e. low fines), in combination with the higher pressures of LSM, and the basket types/depths/holes/layout etc available when. Any real world feedback on above would be useful in time. Biased obviously as thinking about a new grinder and toying between conical and larger flat..;-)


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

So far, and it's very early days, finding shots working to my personal tastes around 25 secs where, previously, I'd been pulling 35 -40 secs on the LR. Grind setting on the EKs is around setting 2 where I had been using 1 on the LR. Latest shot was 18.5grms > 39grms with 10 secs PI and the shot completed in 25 secs. Group temp set to 93.5c. Once the lever is released, everything moves quickly, extraction-wise. Will try retarding the lever a tad later with same set up and see if it makes any difference. Was expecting the 25 sec shots to be under-extracted. Tasting notes said tangerine which was evident in spades but without any unpleasant sourness. Will stick with same ratio and extraction time for time being and try some other beans.

Puck shows good even extraction - no dark patches.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MWJB said:


> arbitrary preference after spending the best part of £3k?


 Thank you Mark! Beautifully explained and simplified.

I knew you will bring this up! 😊 It does appear arbitrary, although I always wondered if I should go an extra mile, if it is going to be mainly espresso, if it is worth the cost, and if it will be in the diminishing returns area.

Of course, I only have a JX pro. I am mindful of this and something like Niche or something else for convenience may take a precedence over the refractometer in the medium term.

Thanks!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@The Systemic Kidfor your grinder, when you do WDT, do a mound to the center, grabbing the coffee and pulling inwards towards the center, and then tap/tamp. This will avoid the concave puck you see in the picks and will extract more.

Fast shots are normal out of lighter roasts on unimodal burrs, or finer grinds. 16-25 sec.

One question, I know I can be silly sometimes, what happens if you bring down the lever and dont wait for the entire pressure hit on the gear pump and you proceed to raise it? (not with a dry puck but with a partially pre infused puck)? Does the pump stop once you lift the lever? no matter what pressure you have in pi? let's say you hit 2 bar and your presostat kicks in at 4 bar to kill the pump.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Well after reading the whole thread and emailing Paolo I am officially on the queue for a 110v US version in batch 2.
> 
> Now to decide if I want a La Marzocco style steam wand or the other type. What kind have you gone with?


 Congrats Gus I think you're the first from the US to own one. I chose the LM long wands but I'm second guessing my decision! They are the best looking but are they as functional? I want to move them around freely


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis S said:


> @The Systemic Kidfor your grinder, when you do WDT, do a mound to the center, grabbing the coffee and pulling inwards towards the center, and then tap/tamp. This will avoid the concave puck you see in the picks and will extract more.
> 
> Fast shots are normal out of lighter roasts on unimodal burrs, or finer grinds. 16-25 sec.
> 
> One question, I know I can be silly sometimes, what happens if you bring down the lever and dont wait for the entire pressure hit on the gear pump and you proceed to raise it? (not with a dry puck but with a partially pre infused puck)? Does the pump stop once you lift the lever? no matter what pressure you have in pi? let's say you hit 2 bar and your presostat kicks in at 4 bar to kill the pump.


 It's a good question, the answer is simple, but I want to ensure no confusion.

The little rod/'button at the back is depressed when you pull the lever down. It's adjusted so that when the piston passes the entry port the pump kicks in, because the pressure in the sealed brew circuit drops. If you don't wait for the entire pressure hit and raise the lever, the pump will stop as the lever reaches a certain point and the valve closes (very close to the usual bite point).

Once the valve closes pressure builds and the pump stops...the gauge measures what's in the group and that isn't affected by the pump running against the closed group valve. So yes, the pump stops once you lift the lever.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

For what it's worth I couldn't decide whether to get the Vesuvius or La Mazorcco style water and steam wands, and went with both (I understand from Paolo that switching is fairly straightforward and doesn't require special tools). I suspect the Vesuvius style wands are more practical for home use, but that's only one factor in the decision process.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

as long as they don't use whatever they used on the minima steam arms


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Sorry - not intending to hijack but oh how I wish we could have an equivalent Vesuvius thread.. I'm still struggling to get consistent good shots out of my "V"


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Mine has the Minima short steam arm. Went for this as it can be tucked away over the drip tray when not needed. When in use, protrudes just enough and at an angle of around 45 degrees to allow your steam jug to fit over it.


 Could you post some photos of it? Trying to decide on this setup or the regular steam arm....

Thanks


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> as long as they don't use whatever they used on the minima steam arms


 While I didn't go for the Minima steam arms, could you explain why you don't consider them to be a good choice for this machine ?


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

the minima steam arms were welded on, nearly destroyed taking off to change


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Elephantoplasty said:


> Could you post some photos of it? Trying to decide on this setup or the regular steam arm....
> 
> Thanks


 This is my choice of arm works fine for me - just. As the Evo is set pretty close to the wall steam wand side, can't steam to the side. With the arm raised to its max around 45 degrees, I can put a 300ml jug into it and steam away. There's enough clearance between the jug's base and the top of the drip tray. Works fine for me but it's tight. The long arm would make it easier to steam with the wand facing front and over the drip tray but, for me, it would be in the way when I don't need to steam. If you've got space to the steam wand's side on your work area, you will have more options than me should you go with the Minima arm.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> As the Evo is set pretty close to the wall steam wand side, can't steam to the side


 Can't you swap the arms ?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Can't you swap the arms ?


 You can at the build time - it's a factory option, along with arm type. After despatch - presumably possible but trickier as requiring change to internal copper piping.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Can't you swap the arms ?









Like this?????​


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

As @danielpugh points out - it's a factory job really. In my set up, the EKs set close to Miss Evo on the hot tap side. They both sit on a 60cm wide cupboard set into an alcove that measures 75cm.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This compares directly to me, who could not give a monkeys toss about steam and water arms! I took the minima option......why? Simple, Patrick told me!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I have also taken the minima option with steam on the right, which has got a plenty of free space over a window!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> This compares directly to me, who could not give a monkeys toss about steam and water arms! I took the minima option......why? Simple, Patrick told me!


 We've got the Vesuvius steam wand









This is the Minima arm option


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> As @danielpugh points out - it's a factory job really. In my set up, the EKs set close to Miss Evo on the hot tap side. They both sit on a 60cm wide cupboard set into an alcove that measures 75cm.


 Not sure if you have a flexibility to relocate the machine elsewhere to give a little more space.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Have had my previous levers sat in the alcove alongside the EKs so am used to it.


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

It would be really helpful if some kind soul could post pictures of all the steam and water arm options in one post.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@The Systemic Kid Thats why no one asks me my opinion!


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Here are the 4 options (Water + Steam wands) as I understand them (using images supplied by ACS)


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Clip showing how easy it is to play around with pressure during extraction. Not sure I will make much use of this function as, so far, I've preferred shots where the spring has exerted full pressure of 10.5 bar before gradually declining.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

150ml of fridge cold milk micro-foamed in 15 secs using the three hole tip. Despite steaming like a beast, it's surprisingly easy to control and forgiving too.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I still have no answer for this, I need to get the piston end cap off so clockwise or anti clockwise please.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Jony said:


> I still have no answer for this, I need to get the piston end cap off so clockwise or anti clockwise please.


 I've found many threads with pictures and pics of tools, description etc. None so far that says which direction..


----------



## biggoldensun (Jun 13, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Welcome to the forum and congrats on your machine!
> finally someone talking about espresso 😍. Have you tried hot/iced americanos yet? What about the single basket? I saw people on HB talking about single basket shots using Alex Leva (same group head).


 Oh, I am happy about my double espresso's. This is the beverage of my choice


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Jony said:


> I still have no answer for this, I need to get the piston end cap off so clockwise or anti clockwise please.


 In case it's handy and for potential future ref...

1. Instructions

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/la-san-marco-alex-leva-sticking-seal-problem-and-what-tool-is-needed-to-remove-piston-head-t47400.html#p537898

2. Another with pics (scroll down)

https://coffeesnobs.com.au/forum/equipment/brewing-equipment-extreme-machines-3000/35708-izzo-alex-leva/page39

3. Video showing construction of the group. You can see that the thread for the nut(?) That holds on the two springs is tightened clockwise. I think that the piston may then thread onto the same screw, but can't be sure as they annoyingly don't show further for that part and move on...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1xwm0wi5j...rvice.avi?dl=0


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Dave, renaming the thread is in order please ! 😊


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

The La Marzocco style steam wand shouldn't go past the drip tray when in neutral position right? I really want that style of wand but also don't want it to stick out like a sore thumb when machine is not in use.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> The La Marzocco style steam wand shouldn't go past the drip tray when in neutral position right? I really want that style of wand but also don't want it to stick out like a sore thumb when machine is not in use.


 Let's go for looks now functionality later! I think we can replace them anytime we want 👍🏻 Those spider arms look good on their Instagram account.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Dave, renaming the thread is in order please ! 😊


 It's SEO affecting, so I can't


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@Eiffel Perfect! Thank you very much for the effort.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Jony said:


> I still have no answer for this, I need to get the piston end cap off so clockwise or anti clockwise please.


 There you go @Jony :

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/another-lsm-seal-changing-video-t73493.html

enjoy.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

MW11 said:


> There you go @Jony :
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/levers/another-lsm-seal-changing-video-t73493.html
> 
> enjoy.


 Thanks for the link, @MW11.

As I watched the video, I noticed that the image is actually flipped left to right. Therefore the direction of unscrewing the piston as shown is reversed. This means to unscrew, the tool must be turned clockwise in the hand when looking at the group from the front of the machine.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

SL01 said:


> Thanks for the link, @MW11.
> 
> As I watched the video, I noticed that the image is actually flipped left to right. Therefore the direction of unscrewing the piston as shown is reversed. This means to unscrew, the tool must be turned clockwise in the hand when looking at the group from the front of the machine.


 Thanks man! Espressotime is a great contributor to the community and he is always helping. I wish there was more content like that available whenever we need guidance


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Seal replacement with slip-on tool






@MW11 Thx for the video.

Wouldn't the above two give a better access? I wouldn't trust myself in putting the piston end cap back into position with the method shown by espressotime. It's nice of them to help the community though.

@Jony Please post some video of what you change. It will be useful for us here. Thx


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The Vostok is a 54mm group so the seal tool will be too wide to work. Unfortunately as I have one for my L1!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

if you are having a hard time bending and twisting the seals to fit on the slots, you could maybe keep them 1 minute in boiling water and then they should be a bit easier to stretch.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

> 24 minutes ago, Like Medium Strong Coffee said:
> 
> Seal replacement with slip-on tool


 That's the Bosco's group head not the LSM which is different. LSM has only one gasket and much easier servicing. 
Who is Patrick? I have been watching that video on YouTube for 2 years and I was going to service my profitec pro 800 according to his instructions! Great video with so much info. 
about the tool I got it from espresso parts already and it's really solid! pricy but worth it imho. I saw many people 3d printing it or making it on their own but I'm not that handy 😂 so I went with convenience and good quality which will last for a long time. I think it gives easier access and the way espressotime is showing isn't that hard tbh.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

MW11 said:


> Who is Patrick


 Watch 10 seconds into the video and your question will be answered. 😉


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Who is Patrick?


 @The Systemic Kid😊



MW11 said:


> about the tool I got it from espresso parts already and it's really solid! pricy but worth it imho.


 The link please. Please also list what are the other tools did you order for servicing / changing our Evo Leva.

I won't print. I will also order.



MW11 said:


> think it gives easier access and the way espressotime is showing isn't that hard tbh.


 Not sure until I try. I thought the top access is more convenient.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee

https://www.espressoparts.com/products/la-san-marco-lever-piston-tool?variant=37842514477243

Apparently I bought the last one 😜 send them an email and they will restock it soon. There was a discount code I found online which gave me a 5% discount not much but it helps a bit. 
I haven't bought anything else. I'm waiting for other owners to share the links for gaskets and parts too. Maybe @Paolo_Cortesewill share the right gaskets and servicing kits links soon.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

As I understand it, this item will also work with some slight filing of the 4 tooth: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087CKXLVD?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details. it is about £20-25 delivered in the UK, VAT included.

I have bought one, but as I'm on the 2nd batch for the EVO Leva, I'm not yet able to confirm it works (I did order it based on some post on HB... which also indicated how to file the tooth)


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Curious if from the first batch is someone with more unimodal burrs (ssp 98mm HU, 64mm brew burr, or 64mm ssp multi-purpose burr) with the lever, and curious if they can get any good results?

The high pressure is bad with those burrs, in general.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> Curious if from the first batch is someone with more unimodal burrs (ssp 98mm HU, 64mm brew burr, or 64mm ssp multi-purpose burr) with the lever, and curious if they can get any good results?
> 
> The high pressure is bad with those burrs, in general.


 +1

Though @The Systemic Kidwas using with EK I believe which (?) Includes one of above...


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Ek with what burrs? it behaves a bit different depending on burrs and carrier. Flavors are a bit rounder, more generic if the pressure is to high for those burrs.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Curious if from the first batch is someone with more unimodal burrs (ssp 98mm HU, 64mm brew burr, or 64mm ssp multi-purpose burr) with the lever, and curious if they can get any good results?
> 
> The high pressure is bad with those burrs, in general.


 I heard from a guy who owns alex leva that he prefers the conical to the Monolith flat paired with his machine. Then Thomas on the Kafatek forum told @danielpughand I that he loves his Monolith max paired with his alex leva and he has no issues at all (I'm guessing he has the SSP Low Uniformity burrs or maybe the mythos). I think they don't have any issues and it's a matter of preference. 
I am on the second batch and my grinder is MAX with the SLM burrs and my friend (who is also on the 2nd batch) bought the lagom p100. Unfortunately, we can't do side by side comparisons cause we live in different cities but I think we will gather good info soon. I bought helor 106 to try conicals and it's amazing paired with the robot so I'll be trying that too.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Flat is not unimodal and has no problem with high pressure shots. Suriken have no problem with high pressure shots, n'or do SSP LU.

I am talking only about those 3 burrs mentioned above, rest are not unimodal, and have no problem at higher pressure.

There are facts and they are real that some people like the simplicity of conical grinder because they have a wider range to hit the shot and have no problem if you press with higher pressure.

Flat grinders on the other hand are more sensitive.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Flat is not unimodal and has no problem with high pressure shots. Suriken have no problem with high pressure shots, n'or do SSP LU.
> 
> I am talking only about those 3 burrs mentioned above, rest are not unimodal, and have no problem at higher pressure.


 I think you got it the other way around with the SSP burrs. High uniformity produces more fines unlike the Low Uniformity that's why Titus is marketing the Low Uniformity in his grinder as the best for filter coffee. I could be wrong tho I'll take a second look at them.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> Ek with what burrs? it behaves a bit different depending on burrs and carrier. Flavors are a bit rounder, more generic if the pressure is to high for those burrs.


 Question for @The Systemic Kid..

Separately feedback on those burrs in e.g. p100. Leaning towards max with shuriken (assuming my organ sale goes well) but with mc4.

I very much looked at Titus as well and from looks would be happy, but requires second organ sale. However I believe its LU or remade older ek43 (from memory), or >HU for espresso<.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@MW11 I did not get it wrong.

The more uniform the output of a grinder is, the finer you can grind. The finer you can grind the more fines you have.

98mm HU/ 64mm brew burrs and 64mm multi-purpose burrs grind the finest/more uniform/highest extraction in short times.

Because of that ultra fine grind they dont like 8-15 bar shots, but more like 4-6 bar shots.

I already had all these burrs in my grinders, and tested them for long (3-24 months), all 3 of them.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

MW11 said:


> I heard from a guy who owns alex leva that he prefers the conical to the Monolith flat paired with his machine. ...


 Heard the same thing so I added a variable speed motor to my HG-1 that runs between 0-350rpm. Using both stock and SSP 0187c sets, that should keep me busy and my darling wife happy for a while. In fact, the infinite possibilities are daunting and may take a while with the boss involved.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

SL01 said:


> Heard the same thing so I added a variable speed motor to my HG-1 that runs between 0-350rpm. Using both stock and SSP 0187c sets, that should keep me busy and my darling wife happy for a while. In fact, the infinite possibilities are daunting and may take a while with the boss involved.


 Yep he had a hg-1 too. I think you will appreciate it more especially with the new machine 👍🏻


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Yep he had a hg-1 too. I think you will appreciate it more especially with the new machine 👍🏻


 very similar to a key 😉


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> very similar to a key 😉


 Now you're getting on my nerves 😡


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MW11 said:


> ). I think they don't have any issues and it's a matter of preference.


 This above.

.There is so much guff, assumed knowledge that becomes law , that one person says to another , that somehow becomes indisputable truth about a machine and grinder. Buy something, enjoy it, log off the internet stop listening to people who tell you it isn't good enough or you need something better.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The depth of bed on these baskets is significantly higher than a 58mm for the same dose. Which, all things being equal, will mean grinding coarser for the same shot time. So on the 98mm HU you are not grinding as fine as on 58mm. How this affects fines / pour characteristics will be interesting to see. I think the basket shape is a major reason why these levers produced great shots and maybe shots at 11 bar will suit different burr sets than std baskets


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

it's not guff, it's tested stuff on a bigger private community (decent). There are plenty of graphs with profiles where you can clearly see they prefer a lower pressure for the better taste and extraction yield.

Because the grind is much much finer, so the more you push (higher pressure) the more chances of uneven flow in the puck.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Mrboots2u said:


> This above.
> 
> .There is so much guff, assumed knowledge that becomes law , that one person says to another , that somehow becomes indisputable truth about a machine and grinder. Buy something, enjoy it, log off the internet stop listening to people who tell you it isn't good enough or you need something better.


 When you're investing heavily in a high end grinder or a machine, I think you should read user experiences and ask people who actually use them. Sure there will be 1-2 that say something opposite of the majority but you will always take the majority's word for it.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Denis S said:


> it's not guff, it's tested stuff on a bigger private community (decent). There are plenty of graphs with profiles where you can clearly see they prefer a lower pressure for the better taste and extraction yield.
> 
> Because the grind is much much finer, so the more you push (higher pressure) the more chances of uneven flow in the puck.


 I wasn't referring to a particular point you made


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Definitely seen plenty of posts about it out in quite a few forums. Enough to be wary till we see some real-world experiences with this machine - as @Stevebee mentions the basket may help, and maybe it is guff and people just needing to prep better - I don't know - painful way to find out when blowing that kind of money on a grinder 😉

Anyway any reports will be good to know/see someone who had both e.g. Evo leva + p100, nautilus or similar


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> Definitely seen plenty of posts about it out in quite a few forums. Enough to be wary till we see some real-world experiences with this machine - as @Stevebee mentions the basket may help, and maybe it is guff and people just needing to prep better - I don't know - painful way to find out when blowing that kind of money on a grinder 😉
> 
> Anyway any reports will be good to know/see someone who had both e.g. Evo leva + p100, nautilus or similar


 wasn't per se aiming my comment at anything particular on this thread but just my experience of having around on forums for a number of years and seeing people get so excited about x machine that often it gets imbued with super human properties at the start ( I have been guilty of this myself previously )


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I often wonder about coffee equipment.....back in the day, I confess to having had everything going. Was my coffee any the better for it.....I seriously doubt it, so, what could it be then> The answer is COFFEEBOLLOCKS of course. This is the unapplied science, that suggests there are many topics in coffee that on paper, you cannot argue about, in theory. But, the changes they actually make to the end product are minute, even when all rolled together into a ball. Then the next problem is, are your tastebuds actually capable of detecting these microscopic changes......this is the best bit.........is it a placebo effect ie you have a top of the range machine and grinder, hand engraved milk jugs with your name on, your birth sign etched into your tamper handle, your barista towels with your name on........all this makes you think you MUST be producing a top notch cuppa.......or is the whole lot just COFFEEBOLLOCKS?


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Yep he had a hg-1 too. I think you will appreciate it more especially with the new machine 👍🏻


 Yes, sir!

The Evo is to me both proven tastiness AND a pillar of repeatability. The super low speeds the HG-1 can now do, combined the springs-defined nearly straight-line declining pressure should allow me to experiment with 2-pass grinds to get that last drop of syrup out of our medium to dark roast.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Listen, I just asked a tiny question regarding some burrs with this machine, nothing else. No need to justify why, or to start a 2 page off-topic about it. I have my believes and my findings, and I am willing to spend a lot of time in trying to find things that work for me, on my coffee, with my taste requirements.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

danielpugh said:


> @The Systemic Kidwas using with EK I believe which (?) Includes one of above...


Using as EKs with the Sir Lancelot burrs​
...also known as Silver Knight????​


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

So you probably have LU or a small chance (HU if from Titus).

If you have a photo I can tell you what they are.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> So you probably have LU or a small chance (HU if from Titus).
> 
> If you have a photo I can tell you what they are.


 Yep you are correct - https://www.home-barista.com/grinders/mahlkonig-ek43-standard-vs-ssp-burrs-for-brewing-t52611-10.html#p591707


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all,

Currently about to pull the trigger on purchasing a machine, except I'm a bit on the fence about the aesthetics of the machine. I was hoping when I first heard about the machine that it would be indeed a Vostok 1 group machine. I found in this magazine https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3 that Paolo might be releasing both machines, same internals, but different casings. Does anyone know if this is true? @DavecUK @Paolo_CorteseWould you know anything about this?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Vesuvius Evo Leva is made at the request of home users.

It must have modern capabilities and flexible parameters. This is why the machine has a gear pump with a set pressure between 1 and 4 bars.

This is why the machine can be used with tank/reservoir (some of us make their own water by adding minerals to Ro water) or connected to the water line.

From what I know the original vostok does not have a gear pump or the ability to set preinfusion, or the use of a tank.

So they are 2 different machines, and this topic is about the Vesuvius Evo Leva that is more capable than Vostok.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> From what I know the original vostok does not have a gear pump or the ability to set preinfusion, or the use of a tank.


 From ACS home page, I don't think that's right. http://www.elcor.it/vostok/ The page states that it has adjustable preinfusion.

Nonetheless, I think the feature set of the Evo Leva is perfect, and I'm super excited about it, however I am really not a fan of the Vesuvius chassis. In my opinion it's the one thing that's stopping this machine from being perfect. I think that the Vostok body is quite Aesthetically pleasing.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

adjustable preinfusion by line pressure probably, not from a gear pump+ presostat.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd The Vesuvius case was used because with additional strengthening, it did not tip, whereas a scaled down Vostok case did not meet criteria. This is why there has never been a 1 grp Vostok, until now. @Davecuk went back a few stages as he felt the market needed a technical solution that the Vesuvius offers.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> From ACS home page, I don't think that's right. http://www.elcor.it/vostok/ The page states that it has adjustable preinfusion.
> 
> Nonetheless, I think the feature set of the Evo Leva is perfect, and I'm super excited about it, however I am really not a fan of the Vesuvius chassis. In my opinion it's the one thing that's stopping this machine from being perfect. I think that the Vostok body is quite Aesthetically pleasing.


 The vostok is a more commercial machine and so mainly for plumbed in. @Holonomic and @Jony have been enticed by, and bought the two group versions. I think the single group was being worked on, and a prototype was at a show a few years ago (can be seen in a few youtube vids), but never had an internal tank/reservoir or main production.

I think it has an optional external pump (in think @Jony got this) which presumably allows for adjustable preinfusion (as writing - as @Denis S just posted). i emailed him many months ago, and from his reply he basically said no on the 1-group.

you can always email @Paolo_Cortese - he can fill you in on options for all above - [email protected]


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> The vostok is a more commercial machine and so mainly for plumbed in. @Holonomic and @Jony have been enticed by, and bought the two group versions. I think the single group was being worked on, and a prototype was at a show a few years ago (can be seen in a few youtube vids), but never had an internal tank/reservoir or main production.


 The one group Vostok was very large and couldn't scale down small enough for home use, and fit all the internals.


----------



## diskox (Jun 15, 2021)

Hi,

I've been reading this from the very beginning and wanted to jump right away to pre-order the ACS Leva. However upon inquiring info on pre-order I asked about Vostok 1 as I was more aesthetically pleased with it and I was let know that it should arrive in the fall. Main differentiators are going to be dimensions, ACS Leva coming in with water tank with the option of plumb-in while Vostok 1 coming in as a plumb-in with the option of water tank while (virtually)everything else remaining the same.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Like buses. Hardly any mention of the Vostok1 through all 57 pages then 2 new users come on preferring the aesthetics to the Evo Leva.


----------



## diskox (Jun 15, 2021)

FWIW I will order ACS Leva if Vostok 1 falls through and I did ask DaveC 2 months ago on Vostok 1 details on a different forum. Just wanted to share info (completely unrelated to aesthetics) re Vostok 1 since people aren't aware. Both are going to be basically the same machine..


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

gearosthyd said:


> Hey all,
> 
> Currently about to pull the trigger on purchasing a machine, except I'm a bit on the fence about the aesthetics of the machine. I was hoping when I first heard about the machine that it would be indeed a Vostok 1 group machine. I found in this magazine https://thelevermag.com/pages/issue-3 that Paolo might be releasing both machines, same internals, but different casings. Does anyone know if this is true? @DavecUK @Paolo_CorteseWould you know anything about this?


 Not heard about Vostok version. Information in the magazine contains errors too. Specs attributed to Vostok belong to the Evo Leva - double boiler etc. Leva magazine will be publishing a review of the Evo Leva in its July edition.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Making a smaller Vostok 1 for the home makes no sense when there's the Vesuvius Evo. Isn't the whole point of the Vesuvius that they want to differentiate home vs commercial?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

diskox said:


> FWIW I will order ACS Leva if Vostok 1 falls through and I did ask DaveC 2 months ago on Vostok 1 details on a different forum. Just wanted to share info (completely unrelated to aesthetics) re Vostok 1 since people aren't aware. Both are going to be basically the same machine..


 I think it's quite likely they will use what's working on Evo and translate it to Vostok. Rather than stick to what they came up with 4 years ago


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Been playing around with different beans all afternoon and refracting the results. Group heaters are really powerful. Rinsing the portafilter after each shot with cold water - back on the group and back up to temp in two minutes.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@The Systemic Kidcan you tell us some numbers? if you dont mind?

I do measure most of my shots, but I do no filter them, and dont care about precise numbers, more about range of EY%.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Does anyone know if Batch 1 has been fully completed? Batch 2 is supposed to be end of July/beginning of August?

Just heard that the US DF64 vendor is having a big shipping delay so my unit with SSP Unimodal pre-installed won't be here until end of July.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Does anyone know if Batch 1 has been fully completed? Batch 2 is supposed to be end of July/beginning of August?
> 
> Just heard that the US DF64 vendor is having a big shipping delay so my unit with SSP Unimodal pre-installed won't be here until end of July.


 Batch 1 is fully subscribed and mostly/all despatched, I believe batch 2 is fully subscribed as well


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Batch 1 is fully subscribed and mostly/all despatched, I believe batch 2 is fully subscribed as well


 Yeah Paolo told me that when he received my deposit for batch 2 on Monday that there were only 2 spots left on that one.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Batch 2 is full too, one US customers and a friend of mine from Vienna. 3 more friends waiting for a machine to test so they know if they order after testing it.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Denis S said:


> Batch 2 is full too, one US customers and a friend of mine from Vienna. 3 more friends waiting for a machine to test so they know if they order after testing it.


 The last US customer is me. There are 3 US machines being made in the second batch it seems. I don't think there were any 110v machines in batch 1.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> The last US customer is me. There are 3 US machines being made in the second batch it seems. I don't think there were any 110v machines in batch 1.


 I paid the deposit for the first US machine on March 26. Paolo confirmed that I am 13th on the list. If you are the 3rd, I wonder who the second is - perhaps @MW11?


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

SL01 said:


> I paid the deposit for the first US machine on March 26. Paolo confirmed that I am 13th on the list. If you are the 3rd, I wonder who the second is - perhaps @MW11?


 Nono, I mean I am the third 110v person on batch 2. My actual place on the list is next to last.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I made the payment on 11 March, I am 1 or 2 on 2nd batch?

I think yes because when I rushed to ask details and to pay, someone told me there might be 1 spot left in first batch, but I ended up in 2nd batch, so for sure i'm 1 or 2nd on second batch 😆


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Nono, I mean I am the third 110v person on batch 2. My actual place on the list is next to last.


 When I spoke with Paolo confirming my order position, IIRC he may have mentioned that there is an order from Canada, the only country other than the US and Mexico that takes 115V machines. I do not remember him saying if that order was in the first batch. He did count to #13 with my name next to it so I just hope it does not arrive on a Friday 🙂


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

SL01 said:


> When I spoke with Paolo confirming my order position, IIRC he may have mentioned that there is an order from Canada, the only country other than the US and Mexico that takes 115V machines. I do not remember him saying if that order was in the first batch. He did count to #13 with my name next to it so I just hope it does not arrive on a Friday 🙂


 Did you order a 110v machine as well?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> @The Systemic Kidcan you tell us some numbers? if you dont mind?
> 
> I do measure most of my shots, but I do no filter them, and dont care about precise numbers, more about range of EY%.


 Will put them up tomorrow


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Did you order a 110v machine as well?


 Yes, my US machine order is for 115V and it will be delivered to me in the US.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

gus6464 said:


> Does anyone know if Batch 1 has been fully completed? Batch 2 is supposed to be end of July/beginning of August?


 If this is the case, it will be the summer with more espressos ever... End of July, beginning of August is around 35-40° Celsius here.

Also, it will take much less than 15 minutes to get working temperature 😅


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

SL01 said:


> I paid the deposit for the first US machine on March 26. Paolo confirmed that I am 13th on the list. If you are the 3rd, I wonder who the second is - perhaps @MW11?


 I'm from Saudi Arabia and I ordered 2, one is for a friend of mine who has a Synchronika but he's going to sell it to make room for the Evo Leva. He also bought a lagom p100 so it'll be interesting to hear his thoughts. Sadly we live in different cities and can't compare anything but I trust we could communicate taste or die trying 😂. I'm not in a hurry anymore I just want @Paolo_Cortese to take his time and work his magic even if it takes him 2-3 months more. I asked for some cosmetic changes ( Black paint ..) and I think he's working on it. Italians have great taste👍🏻


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Parts for the LSM group head can be found here:

https://www.espressoparts.com/collections/san-marco-la-san-marco-lever-group

Espresso parts have 3 of the LSM piston tools on order from Italy and they expect them to arrive at the end of June.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Parts for the LSM group head can be found here:
> 
> https://www.espressoparts.com/collections/san-marco-la-san-marco-lever-group
> 
> Espresso parts have 3 of the LSM piston tools on order from Italy and they expect them to arrive at the end of June.


 At $110 quite pricey. Quite a few posts where the same tool made out of some cheap bit of pipe with a saw.

There is also a different tool on the second link I put up yesterday that looks cheap..


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> At $110 quite pricey. Quite a few posts where the same tool made out of some cheap bit of pipe with a saw.
> 
> There is also a different tool on the second link I put up yesterday that looks cheap..


 Yeah I even saw someone cutting a pipe and it worked out just fine for hime! I think it costed him like 5$. It's still an option and I opted for it because it looked heavy duty.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Yeah I even saw someone cutting a pipe and it worked out just fine for hime! I think it costed him like 5$. It's still an option and I opted for it because it looked heavy duty.


 It will be good to hear how @The Systemic Kid, @dfk41 and @DavecUK would service this.

While the tool will be very useful and make it easier, I thought approaching from the top, like Patrick's video, is better for a few reasons: 1) We will any way have a set of tools to remove the bolts, (2) can use the opportunity to lightly grease the unit and the head as shown by Patrick, and so on.

I was thinking of grabbing a Knipex for work around the house including the coffee machine.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/86-05-250-SB-multi-component/dp/B0008KLMIQ/ref=pd_bxgy_1/259-0664989-5840944?pd_rd_w=lWmfO&pf_rd_p=e5130b5a-1765-4699-bcba-dfad57398256&pf_rd_r=FFFDRT1372J0CVGK806D&pd_rd_r=a899fa2f-f653-4bc6-9270-4c1d3c0004c2&pd_rd_wg=QawBD&pd_rd_i=B0008KLMIQ&psc=1

Do we know what the diameter of the piston head please ? Will Knipex do the job? We may still need a pin to lock into the piston head.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I've read that the cylinder diameter is 50mm so the piston will be slightly less.

I have some 51mm thick walled tube blanks bought for making Londinium seal cones so intend to make a tool for my Leva when the machine arrives. Could easily be turned down to 50mm on a lathe. Doesn't look to be an easy job as a certain amount of accurate milling will be needed. Alternatively, I may get away with drilling four holes in the tube face and pressing in pins that will engage in the cut outs on the piston, I'll see when I get the machine.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee If you decide to buy pliers and bench vise please make sure they are rubber padded. The LSM is a new territory for me but I'm confident that it's a work of art and I think I don't have to use grease at all. @LSM's advice on HB was not to use any grease and if you mount the piston correctly in its place you don't need to at all ( @danielpughshared his reply a few pages earlier )


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Norvin said:


> I've read that the cylinder diameter is 50mm so the piston will be slightly less.
> 
> I have some 51mm thick walled tube blanks bought for making Londinium seal cones so intend to make a tool for my Leva when the machine arrives. Could easily be turned down to 50mm on a lathe. Doesn't look to be an easy job as a certain amount of accurate milling will be needed. Alternatively, I may get away with drilling four holes in the tube face and pressing in pins that will engage in the cut outs on the piston, I'll see when I get the machine.


 Put me down for one Les👍😀👍


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

People have reportedly made a tool out of PVC pipe.

But people have also reported it being really hard to get the piston off for the first time, so I don't anticipate a piece of PVC pipe will cut it for that initial removal.

Once off for the first time, a PVC tool will probably be fine - just don't tighten it much.

If you don't want to stump up for the real tool, supposedly this does the job with a bit of filing - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B087CKXLVD?psc=1&ref=ppx_yo2_dt_b_product_details. I have purchased one of these in the hope that it will do both the first removal, and many subsequent ones......

The IMS screen I have waiting for my machine is 50.5mm diameter. It probably sits on a small lip, so I'm guessing the piston is around 49mm diameter. But there's no way I'd be grabbing a nicely machined brass piston with a pair of multigrips......


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Put me down for one Les👍😀👍


 Ha, I didn't say that I was going to make them to sell. I'll see how it goes with mine first.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Ha, I didn't say that I was going to make them to sell. I'll see how it goes with mine first.


 You had to see that coming! I too want one 😂🙌🏻


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I've read that the cylinder diameter is 50mm so the piston will be slightly less.
> 
> I have some 51mm thick walled tube blanks bought for making Londinium seal cones so intend to make a tool for my Leva when the machine arrives. Could easily be turned down to 50mm on a lathe. Doesn't look to be an easy job as a certain amount of accurate milling will be needed. Alternatively, I may get away with drilling four holes in the tube face and pressing in pins that will engage in the cut outs on the piston, I'll see when I get the machine.


 Sounds like a plan. Looks like you have a market place here Norvin!

+1 here please!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MW11 said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee If you decide to buy pliers and bench vise please make sure they are rubber padded. The LSM is a new territory for me but I'm confident that it's a work of art and I think I don't have to use grease at all. @LSM's advice on HB was not to use any grease and if you mount the piston correctly in its place you don't need to at all ( @danielpughshared his reply a few pages earlier )


 Thank you. The knipex pliers-wrench is good for sensitive parts. We can also buy protective jaws.



Norvin said:


> I've read that the cylinder diameter is 50mm so the piston will be slightly less.


 Thx. If this is the case, the Knipex 250 would do, while the 300 will be too big.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Sounds like a plan. Looks like you have a market place here Norvin!


 What have I started?

I think the idea of pressing pins into the face should work. I had a special tool for removing the wheel bearing retaining ring on a Suzuki Jimny that was made like this and it worked really well. The rings were ridiculously tight.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Norvin said:


> What have I started?
> 
> I think the idea of pressing pins into the face should work. I had a special tool for removing the wheel bearing retaining ring on a Suzuki Jimny that was made like this and it worked really well. The rings were ridiculously tight.


 My friend is mad at me for not buying him a tool but it was expensive too. So, he's counting on you 🤣


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> What have I started?
> 
> I think the idea of pressing pins into the face should work. I had a special tool for removing the wheel bearing retaining ring on a Suzuki Jimny that was made like this and it worked really well. The rings were ridiculously tight.


 Your ingenious mind creates stuffs! We love them and would like to buy. Like every one, I want one too! 😂


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

If I did make any it would not be for a while. The last thing i want to do with my shiny new machine when it arrives is to bugger it up testing home made special tools.😀


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> If I did make any it would not be for a while. The last thing i want to do with my shiny new machine when it arrives is to bugger it up testing home made special tools.😀


 😂

Btw, are you on the first batch?


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> 😂
> 
> Btw, are you on the first batch?


 Yes, it's currently stuck in DHL limboland.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Yes, it's currently stuck in DHL limboland.


 Sorry to hear that mate! I'm sure it will be delivered in a day or two. We look forward to photos, first impressions, reviews and video of the shots you pull. GL


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

take a tool with the right size for the 2 pins (no need to be 4) from a car caliper break service set (found on amazon for 15$) and you can unscrew the piston head with that.

Just find out the diameter of the pins and the distance between them:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Universal-Caliper-Piston-Rewind-replacement/dp/B08FRVX8J9/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=caliper+set+break&qid=1623833024&sr=8-6


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee I think the reason that people attack it from the bottom is that the white spacer ring is compressed to centre the piston. So if it's removed from the top makes it tricky to slide back in as you need to relieve tension of the piston first, hence the need for this tool. If you have a tool, there is no need to touch the 4 bolts at the top of the group. This was from the same HB thread mentioned earlier.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Here's a picture of a tool for a Toyota, now if someone can find one that will fit the 50mm piston we are sorted.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm cheap, so I'll probably try something like this, depending on spacing

https://www.screwfix.com/p/hilka-pro-craft-adjustable-angle-grinder-pin-wrench-7/990jf


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Norvin said:


> I've read that the cylinder diameter is 50mm so the piston will be slightly less.
> 
> I have some 51mm thick walled tube blanks bought for making Londinium seal cones so intend to make a tool for my Leva when the machine arrives. Could easily be turned down to 50mm on a lathe. Doesn't look to be an easy job as a certain amount of accurate milling will be needed. Alternatively, I may get away with drilling four holes in the tube face and pressing in pins that will engage in the cut outs on the piston, I'll see when I get the machine.


 hi @Norvin i'd also be interested if you have the enough blanks, and when you get around to it - also not planning on opening up for the longest possible time.

curious why @Jony is opening up his - perhaps to remove one of the springs on one of the groups?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

danielpugh said:


> curious why @Jony is opening up his - perhaps to remove one of the springs on one of the groups?


 Someone should tell him the on switch isn't inside the group😂

That's the problem when you leave it unused for months - you forget the basics


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The thread below gives the following parameters: 4 mm is the pin width and 46 mm is for the head.

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/taking-out-seal-piston-lsm-and-izzo-lever-group-t71177-10.html


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey @DavecUK or @The Systemic Kid, do you mind sharing on how you adjust the preinfusion? Any chance of video on how to do that?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

gearosthyd said:


> Hey @DavecUK or @The Systemic Kid, do you mind sharing on how you adjust the preinfusion? Any chance of video on how to do that?


 If you mean adjust PI pressure, this is easily done via adjusting the pressurestat to the desired bar pressure you want to use. The group pressure gauge will provide the necessary feedback.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> If you mean adjust PI pressure, this is easily done via adjusting the pressurestat to the desired bar pressure you want to use. The group pressure gauge will provide the necessary feedback.


 Yup, I mean the PI Pressure. But again, where is this actually done? On the panel? Or is there something inside that has to be adjusted?


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Stevebee said:


> Someone should tell him the on switch isn't inside the group😂
> 
> That's the problem when you leave it unused for months - you forget the basics


 Less of that. If you like to know the spring came fitted wrong way round from the factory and wasn't checked 😁


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

For what it's worth, the Locknut socket which is mentioned on HB and available from amazon, even in the UK (via https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B087CKXLVD/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1) is 44mm in Outside Diameter... at least mine is.

I'm on Batch 2, so I can't vouch that it works for the intended purpose... but I can vouch that Amazon will deliver it in sunny UK!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Jony said:


> Less of that. If you like to know the spring came fitted wrong way round from the factory and wasn't checked 😁


 Bugger! Was that on one group or both?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> Hey @DavecUK or @The Systemic Kid, do you mind sharing on how you adjust the preinfusion? Any chance of video on how to do that?


 Undo 4 allen screws and lift off top cover. The photo is of a machine being assembled in the factory. The pressurestat is highlighted with a green arrow. Turn the screw in the top anticlockwise to decrease PI pressure and clockwise to increase it. I can't do a video, because I don't have a production machine. If I could do a video it would only be of turning a screw.

Once adjusted, do a shot and if you want more/less adjust again. once happy, screw down the top cover again.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

gearosthyd said:


> Yup, I mean the PI Pressure. But again, where is this actually done? On the panel? Or is there something inside that has to be adjusted?


 Make sure you save the manual, the info is in there and plenty more useful stuff.

Funny enough Decent espresso had no manual a few months ago, but Vesuvius evo Leva has one.

https://sway.office.com/pQLa02FN4KX86gkG?ref=Link


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> What have I started?
> 
> I think the idea of pressing pins into the face should work. I had a special tool for removing the wheel bearing retaining ring on a Suzuki Jimny that was made like this and it worked really well. The rings were ridiculously tight.


 I think pressing pins in versus cutting or milling the pins from a pipe is a much better idea.

When I look at the factory tool and the DIY ones, they were made from round stock. It may be obvious but that leaves the most important work - the leverage required to unscrew a tightly seated piston - to a pencil sized pin which may slip in the hole or worse, in hand, and although not catastrophic, it does not make the job easy.

Attached is a picture from a tool I have that does the same type of work - it torques down a part through rotation. The tool has a 6" long handle made out of flat 1/2" steel stock. The head is milled down to 1/4". At the end of the tool is a hole to insert a 1/2" drive torque wrench.

The same can be applied to a LSM piston tool - made from strong flat stock with pins of the right sizes pressed or simply screwed in. Length of the pins would be as long as necessary to the bottom face of the group head meets the top of the tool face. This tool then almost completely eliminates any chance of slippage or misfit. Works well in disassembly or re-assembly.

Unfortunately I do not have a shop or any machines so I cannot do this myself.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Stevebee said:


> Bugger! Was that on one group or both?


 One group.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Jony said:


> One group.


 @Jony *That was almost a year ago,* you were advised to contact Paolo for instructions on how to turn the spring over in the second group...have you still not done it.

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/installing-izzo-pompeii-piston-in-group-t25094-20.html#p293547

This tells you how, if you want to retain the same spring tension, mark the point the spring is compressed to before undoing the nut. Try not to damage the chrome if you clamp the top of the group in anything.

Only the top part of the group needs to be removed, 4 bolts. As you have never used that Vostock second group, it should be completely clean.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Been playing around with PI times. Yesterday, pulled some shots and refracted the results using a light Columbian roast which came out at a smidgeon above and under 20% - no sourness. PIs for shots were in the 15-18sec range.

Wanted to see what happened if I ground even finer. Pulled a couple of shots where PI times were 24 sec and 32 secs to first drops. First shot completed in 43 secs, second in 53 secs. PI pressure is just under 2 bar. Ratio pulled was 1:2ish.

Taste-wise, yesterday's shots had balanced acidity - lots of tangerine - no lingering sourness. Today's shots weren't markedly different - any acidity present in yesterday's shots even more muted.

Because the Evo Leva's group is independently heated via elements, this means, once water for the shot is pumped into the group, the brew boiler plays no further role, temperature-wise. Water in the group chamber is controlled accurately via the group heater elements. But is this important?

With a conventional lever, no heat goes into the water in the group chamber once it has been filled. Shot is reliant on the residual heat of the large group mass to retain brew water temperature. This isn't necessarily an issue if your PIs are short but once you go long - well into double seconds, there will be a marked drop in temperature both in PI time and total shot. So with the Evo Leva, you have another variable to play with. With lighter roasts, the received wisdom is higher extraction temps which you can do easily by raising the group heater temps. Would seem from the above, by gentle pre-infusing over a much longer time, you can get similar results by not hiking shot extraction temp.

All this is need of further testing and it will be great when more Evo Leva owners get theirs and start posting their findings. Looking forward to a user knowledge base developing. What is abundantly clear, Evo Leva can be a simple and forgiving to use as you want as well as offering the ability to play around and adjust to personal preference.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Yep it seems the ssp burrs dont pair so nice with huge pressure.

You will end up removing one spring or change the grinder.

Taste is king, and the most important, but 20% EY is pretty low and I put the blame on the burrs/grinder. cause they dont work nice at 8-11 bars. Thank you for testing.

While I do have ssp unimodal burrs grinders here, I will use my main grinder that likes hammer type shots with huge pressure.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Wanted to see what happened if I ground even finer. Pulled a couple of shots where PI times were 24 sec and 32 secs to first drops. First shot completed in 43 secs, second in 53 secs. PI pressure is just under 2 bar. Ratio pulled was 1:2ish.
> 
> Taste-wise, yesterday's shots had balanced acidity - lots of tangerine - no lingering sourness. Today's shots weren't markedly different - any acidity present in yesterday's shots even more muted.


 Thanks Patrick. Assume, the group head temp remain unchanged. Did you measure the EY for this experiment please ?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Thanks Patrick. Assume, the group head temp remain unchanged. Did you measure the EY for this experiment please ?


 I wouldn't measure EY nor worry about it (but that's just me).

thanks for sharing your findings @The Systemic Kid👍🏻


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Bit confused here. I thought the preference for low pressure was the HU SSP burrs. Patrick has the LU SSP burrs. Does it apply to all SSP burrs as that's news to me


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> Bit confused here. I thought the preference for low pressure was the HU SSP burrs. Patrick has the LU SSP burrs. Does it apply to all SSP burrs as that's news to me


 Patrick is the man with the Burrs and the Machine. He says he is getting flavours out coffees he never experienced before on his previous lever machine. The coffees had been frozen and used to make the comparison.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I said on a previous post that the deeper baskets, requiring maybe a coarser grind, combined with the pre infusion and temp control could give some great shots, with more burr sets and options coming into play.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Dont get this wrong, I did not imply he is not making delicious coffee. I was just responding to things related to EY.

EY is not everything about coffee, it doesn't always dictate taste, but it's related to it.

From my understanding, the finer the grind, the lower extraction pressure the better. SSP LU might not grind as fine as SSP HU 98mm, but it's still much finer that many grinders.

The thing is, with SSP HU98mm, you can achieve outstanding explosive taste from light roasts in 4-5 bar shots that drop to 2-3 bar fast, with ultra fast flows but this doesn't work with medium roasts in general. I can show you one shot to exemplify, some people will think i'm trolling or dont know how to make coffee, but this shot trust me it's really sweet, with exceptional flavor separation and 26%+ ey:

Here is a video:

https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMleZfFfedVtsR0yCJBhDkTaKeTWsTt1iGKQKIkp0X5r8ovsfgjk26cbB4EB_aBkQ/photo/AF1QipP7jhyOs5zGqtVFctGur3nR40qNvrzwnNSFbyyj?key=djVwaWVJVGVvamhBYVFPdjVDVDgzVkRiSXdCakFB

Here are the beans i'm pulling from:









This works for unimodal burrs (98mm HU/64mm multi-purpose and 64mm brew burrs unimodal).

Then you go to SSP LU and you want a bit slower flow. Then you go to SSP Hu 64mm and want even slower flow and then to Niche and other stuff where you want medium flow (1-2g/s).

These things are not from me, or in my head, they are tested from many users on Decent forum database, with proper profiles and history to compare shots.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Makes me glad, not to have anything to do with light roasts......LOL


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Here is the coffee made from the video posted above:


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

There are number of options explored on the Decent forum for light roasts / 98mm burrs. Either increase water contact time, generally called Blooming, which have a long contact time increasing EY% or the Turbo shots which pass an increased flow through the puck in a short shot time. These can look like gushers so important the pressure reaches espresso pressures. These generally have high EY% but lower body and mouthfeel. Will be interesting to see what approach suits light roasts on the Vostok, especially if the temp doesn't drop during long preinfusions.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

For the blooming to be good you need to hit certain parameters, in my opinion the hardest profile to hit properly.

The flow in blooming must be set to a certain value after the bloom, let's say 2.2g sec input flow into the puck (a bit hard to do here). Or you could dial in the shot so that after a 8-12 sec water pump to kill the flow and wait another 20-30 sec with bloom and then raise the lever but the pressure would not go above 6-7 bar, gusher fast flow shot. Again this is just for light stuff, for some people this is not espresso and I totally understand it, I respect your preferences.

It is also a bit of a shame to get this beast and then try to make something with it that has not been build or producer for.

I did my research and have a grinder with rounder shaped coarser particles that likes a lot high force pressing on the puck (more compression the better). I had some amazing shots at 13 bar.

I can't do that on my unimodal grinder.

For example here is a today shot with a "lever cremina profile" with a 100% Robusta from India (this would never work on SSP HU)

https://visualizer.coffee/shots/66b28c06-b521-4104-8453-db034433448b

















Despite a really dark roast (no oils still at the surface) the shot tasted really good.

19g in/ 31.2g out with 14.7 TDS=24.1% EY (unfiltered)

Taste like liquid chocolate cake.


----------



## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Denis S said:


> For the blooming to be good you need to hit certain parameters, in my opinion the hardest profile to hit properly.
> 
> The flow in blooming must be set to a certain value after the bloom, let's say 2.2g sec input flow into the puck (a bit hard to do here). Or you could dial in the shot so that after a 8-12 sec water pump to kill the flow and wait another 20-30 sec with bloom and then raise the lever but the pressure would not go above 6-7 bar, gusher fast flow shot. Again this is just for light stuff, for some people this is not espresso and I totally understand it, I respect your preferences.
> 
> ...


 You lost me and many other people here at "(unfiltered)"

Unfiltered EY measurements mean nothing - they're a waste of time


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Fez said:


> You lost me and many other people here at "(unfiltered)"
> 
> Unfiltered EY measurements mean nothing - they're a waste of time


 Thank you for your post. I like to waste my time.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> It is also a bit of a shame to get this beast and then try to make something with it that has not been build or producer for.


 Hey Denis Just to be clear, by beast you're referring to the Evo Leva?

That raises a good point. What kind of coffee is this machine targeted at? I'm a medium to light roast drinker, so I'm looking for a machine that good at that. Is the Evo Leva targeted at more dark roasted drinkers?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The machine can pull anything, it's just those few burrs that are a bit more limited on shot time. This is not about this machine.

I can't say anything about the machine since I do not have it or tested it. But from the users feedback I think it's a really good consistent machine, with a lot of missing modern features that are not build on rest of the levers. The moment I found out about it I started to ask question and then placed the order. The machine doesn't dissapoint (in my eyes) it looks outstanding, top quality with thick materials no cost saving, and it does everything it promised (even the heat time is really really good for such a heavy unit (35kg+).

You can pull light roasted stuff on this no problem.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd No in a word. Remember, you can the parameters that influence a shot, from group temp to boiler temp to PI pressure though the last one is manually. The Systemic Kid is a light roast man


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> The machine can pull anything, it's just those few burrs that are a bit more limited on shot time. This is not about this machine.


 Ah Okay, I currently have a EK43s with HU burrs so I guess that would concern me. @dfk41 Was @The Systemic Kid running the same set up?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd Am sure he will pipe up, but as for me, I run a Niche!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah Okay, I currently have a EK43s with HU burrs so I guess that would concern me. @dfk41 Was @The Systemic Kid running the same set up?


 Try and see how you like it when you get it.

If things dont work as expected (not to blame the machine) you can simply remove 1 spring and have max 7 bar extractions that should suit your burr type +light roast really well.

Or simply change the burrs/grinder.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah Okay, I currently have a EK43s with HU burrs so I guess that would concern me. @dfk41 Was @The Systemic Kid running the same set up?


 @The Systemic Kid earlier - he has the silver knight burr - the brew burr - I believe LU.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think @The Systemic Kidis thinking of Listing it in Pay it forward for the cost of postage.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Thanks Patrick. Assume, the group head temp remain unchanged. Did you measure the EY for this experiment please ?


 Didn't - went by taste. Would be in same ballpark as ones I did refract. For me, what is crucial is being able to enjoy acidic taste notes without the pain of mouth puckering sourness. I've got a Burundi on the go that features 'lemonade'. You get all the enjoyable taste sensations but no pain.

Evo is able to tame acidic light roasts which, for me, is what I wanted and I haven't come anywhere near scratching the Evo's full potential. We've very much in the getting to know each other phase which is why I am looking forward to hearing other Evo users' experiences. Feels a bit lonely at the moment TBH.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> Yep it seems the ssp burrs dont pair so nice with huge pressure.
> 
> You will end up removing one spring or change the grinder.


 Denis, you slay me😀


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Stevebee said:


> Bit confused here. I thought the preference for low pressure was the HU SSP burrs. Patrick has the LU SSP burrs. Does it apply to all SSP burrs as that's news to me


 I take all this HU and LU with a big pinch of salt. I would love to see some blind testing to see if folks can taste the difference. In the real world, most coffee drinkers aren't super tasters anyway.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I think @The Systemic Kidis thinking of Listing it in Pay it forward for the cost of postage.


 More like willing to pay someone to take the EKs off my hands. Going back to a Porlex or blade grinder.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Just crush em with a hammer


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> ​
> Just crush em with a hammer​


That isn't a hammer, it's a Birmingham screwdriver​


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> I take all this HU and LU with a big pinch of salt.


 With you 100%. Too many dogmatic views based mainly on opinion presented as facts.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

)) You could say I played a bit with the grinders, and also spend some years reading forums and talking to others, it doesnt mean i'm right:

You probably also know I was the ek43 biggest fan, with a lot of content about it, and a lot of parts made custom.

The Guatemala monster was also aligned with ssp red speed.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Just crush em with a hammer


 Is that a 98mm or a 64mm hammer?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> Is that a 98mm or a 64mm hammer?


 120mm, made by some dude in America


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> We've very much in the getting to know each other phase which is why I am looking forward to hearing other Evo users' experiences. Feels a bit lonely at the moment TBH.


 The lull before the storm! 😊


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Wooooo! Shouldn't that be 4.72 inches then 😁

Milkshake from Kelis popped into my head

milkshake brings all the boys to the yard
And they're like, it's better than yours
Damn right it's better than yours


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Does appear to be a peeing contest.

I got offered a ek43 but decided against it. When you spend so much money on a grinder then have to spend a grand to align it correctly....well thats not for me.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> Does appear to be a peeing contest.
> 
> I got offered a ek43 but decided against it. When you spend so much money on a grinder then have to spend a grand to align it correctly....well thats not for me.


 I agree. Had a an EK43. Coffee burrs. Titus burr carrier. Still couldn't grind fine enough for decaf. Not my cup of tea for espresso. Nice filter though. It wasn't the best aligned grinder in the whole wide world but it was pretty good😁

Currently using everything from 38mm Comandante (love it!) to 120mm and various in between but so subjective re taste prefences. If it suits your tastes its the right grinder (and burr set) for you


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> I got offered a ek43 but decided against it. When you spend so much money on a grinder then have to spend a grand to align it correctly....well thats not for me.


 Matt Perger came second in WBC using an EK with Mk I coffee burrs unless I'm mistaken. Was probably hugely mis-aligned too.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@Denis S whoa is all that stuff yours? Quite a collection you got there. Let me know if you have Any EK43 stuff you're selling.

Btw does anyone know of the July order is full? I tried emailing Paolo but he hasn't responded yet.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

gearosthyd said:


> @Denis S whoa is all that stuff yours? Quite a collection you got there. Let me know if you have Any EK43 stuff you're selling.
> 
> Btw does anyone know of the July order is full? I tried emailing Paolo but he hasn't responded yet.


 If by July order you mean batch #2 then yes, it's now full.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Looks like I am the only person, who will be using a manual grinder - JX Pro - when the Evo Leva is delivered! Should be interesting 😜


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Matt Perger came second in WBC using an EK with Mk I coffee burrs unless I'm mistaken. Was probably hugely mis-aligned too.


 Exactly second 🤣😝😝😝


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> If by July order you mean batch #2 then yes, it's now full.


 Ugh, damn. Do you know when Batch #3 is set to release?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> Exactly second 🤣😝😝😝


 Mahlkoning were about to discontinue production of the EK 43 but Perger's WBC performance put paid to that. Now, Mahlkonig can't keep up with demand.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I know im messing with you.

Were talking hyper critical when were in hyper grinder range

Most wouldn't taste it


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Denis S ever hag experience with the hedonne home grinder?

Im thinking that or the new key


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> Ugh, damn. Do you know when Batch #3 is set to release?


 If I were you, I'd still try to contact Paolo Cortese, in case someone changes his (or her) mind...


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> @Denis S ever hag experience with the hedone home grinder?
> 
> Im thinking that or the new key


 There is a used hedone honne on kaffee-netz for 650 euro. For that price I would get one.

I would not get one for 1250 euro or what the actual price (yes I tested two of them).

The company is roasting too, but they focus on well developed coffee, and there are users who from time to time enjoy some lighter roasts too but the grinder cannot make it there. It just stops and locks while grinding.

There are several reasons why, the motor is a bit too weak (belt driven pulleys with a 120W motor), a limitation to stop the grinder if extra torque is needed (something electronic) and the fact that the main 2 pulleys (motor + burrs shaft) are connected like the old style M3 with a smooth pulley belt, that just slips after some time and you cannot grind harder stuff.

all the above things can be fixed, by replacing the electronic limitator with something bigger, and changing the pulleys/belt to something with teeth or adding a tensioner on the belt.

Does it worth the struggle? you know.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Not worth the hassle then haha

Thanks


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Righty ho.....as anyone who has met me will know, my coffee making skills are legendary! That said, I am not a great tinkerer as in I make two types of coffee. I either sink it or drink it, therefore could not give a bugger about making an adjustment in dose of 0.000000001 gm, then pulling a shot and being awestruck at the different notes that come out! I was asked this morning, if I was enjoying the machine.....the simple answer is yes. I may not be making constant adjustments to the shot but the point is this.......if I want to, I damn well can as there are so many parameters and bells and whistles that you can adjust.......you just have to want to!

Am I pleased that I invested into this machine right at the start, when it was still a glint in the eyes of Paolo and Dave....well, all those who want one and either cannot have one or are waiting for the second batch to be released, perhaps they are better placed to answer!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Upped group heaters to 94c and brew boiler to 104c and stuck with the Columbian beans to see what, if any, difference temp hike would make. Ground very fine as before - lightest of tamps. PIs were around 20secs with full shot completed in 40-45secs. Didn't weigh out using scales during shot pulls. Used the group pressure gauge and ended the shot at 6bar. Pressure drops very gently until 6bars - then it drops off a cliff.

Weighed the outputs for both shots and cutting at 6 bar gives a very repeatable ratio of just over 1:2 - 39-41grms from 18grm dose. Having used scales for years and years, it's great to able to leave them on the bench if you don't want the faff. Shot was the best I've had so far from this Columbian. Tangerine in spades without any sourness, acidity or bitterness. Enjoyable as straight espresso or through milk.

Will be interesting to hear what other users' experiences are. For me, so far, the ability to set teak temps for the group heaters and brew boiler and independently too, is a game changer.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

So I'm a little hesitant right now with transferring 1k to a random account. Is there any safety precautions that I can take? I don't want to feel like a fool.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd We have all done it matey......ACS is hardly an unknown quantity


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Maybe it would be better to wait and get it from a regional distributor if you don't feel comfortable.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

pinky said:


> Maybe it would be better to wait and get it from a regional distributor if you don't feel comfortable.


 The Evo is only available direct matey, to keep the price down to the consumer. I am not aware of anyone suffering problems that have not been resolved to satisfaction and quickly


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> The Evo is only available direct matey.


 I was told by Paolo that it will be distributed via their network later.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Never heard that.....but, if you want to pay 35 to 40% more for something for buying it from a network, that's fine I guess


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> So I'm a little hesitant right now with transferring 1k to a random account. Is there any safety precautions that I can take? I don't want to feel like a fool.


 I get your concerns but I didn't have any tbh and I've sent payment before any machine seen the light. If you are concerned with this you could ask @BlackCatCoffeeto import one for you! As I understand he is a UK distributor 👍🏻


----------



## biggoldensun (Jun 13, 2021)

I just chatted with a shop in Hamburg. They will sell the machine soon as the latest, greatest thing for a steal of 4350€


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

gearosthyd said:


> So I'm a little hesitant right now with transferring 1k to a random account. Is there any safety precautions that I can take? I don't want to feel like a fool.


 Paolo is an honest guy. As DFK said, we've all paid via bank transfer - no problems.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

biggoldensun said:


> I just chatted with a shop in Hamburg. They will sell the machine soon as the latest, greatest thing for a steal of 4350€


 Bet you're even happier with the price you paid then?😀


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

biggoldensun said:


> I just chatted with a shop in Hamburg. They will sell the machine soon as the latest, greatest thing for a steal of 4350€


 Not sure it's a steal at 4350.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jony said:


> Not sure it's a steal at 4350.


 Irony?


----------



## biggoldensun (Jun 13, 2021)

Irony! 😄


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Pulled the trigger! Sent the deposit over. He told me that they still have 2 machines left. I presume then I picked up the second last one for July. So One left! Again, I don't know if he was referring to the #2 batch or not.

Or I could be joining the long line of heirs of Nigerian Princes... 😂

I'm getting mine with the coloured side panels. Can't wait to get it! Going to love being able to finally make my own espresso every day!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

gearosthyd said:


> Going to love being able to finally make my own espresso every day!


 Congratulations! That's an excellent start!

Which grinder have you?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Which grinder have you?


 The one and only, EK43s! I have the multipurpose SSP burrs, but I'll try and get the HU when I can.

Ha after that I honestly don't know what I could possibly buy after that!😂

Maybe I'll get into roasting! 😛


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd Congratulations......you have climbed 20 rungs up the ladder, but the good news is, you can never reach the top!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

gearosthyd said:


> The one and only, EK43s! I have the multipurpose SSP burrs, but I'll try and get the HU when I can.
> 
> Ha after that I honestly don't know what I could possibly buy after that!😂
> 
> Maybe I'll get into roasting! 😛


 Blimey! That's "the" ultimate start up setup! I suppose you won't have upgaditus in a while, if at all! 🙂

yeah, get into roasting, but buy in line with your current equipment.. read: "Professional 5kg roaster" 😛

Enjoy, keep us posted!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Irony?


 Lost on me then


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Jony said:


> Lost on me then


 How about infamy then?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Blimey! That's "the" ultimate start up setup! I suppose you won't have upgaditus in a while, if at all! 🙂
> 
> yeah, get into roasting, but buy in line with your current equipment.. read: "Professional 5kg roaster" 😛
> 
> Enjoy, keep us posted!


 Ha, yeah I didn't want to get upgaditus! So I went all out. But to be honest, I've been brewing filter for years. I'll be sure to update the group when I get my machine. I'll try also post some videos as well. We need more of this machine covered!


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @gearosthyd Congratulations......you have climbed 20 rungs up the ladder, but the good news is, you can never reach the top!


 Ha good news for me, bad news for my wife and pocket :classic_laugh:


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Well the Leva has finally landed.

Number 9 of the first batch. It wasn't supposed to arrive until next Tuesday but the driver told me that he recognised my address and didn't want to come down my drive in the wet; and rain is forecast☺ There was some damage to the crate, he said it was like that when he picked it up, but he helped me carry it onto the kitchen table. Good job too as it is really, really heavy.

The crate had lost two 'legs' and someone had nailed the crate where there shouldn't be nails so something had happened to it on its journey.

Unpacking took ages, there is a nice selection of bits that go with the machine. Another set of wood handles, tamper, seals, three portafilters, and more. I'm not sure whether these will be standard with future machines or some bits are a reward for enduring the delays in production.









There is a slight problem with a bend in the rear panel, probably a result of careless handling of the crate, but it looks like it can be straightened out in future and can't be seen when the machine is on the worktop.

Here is a picture of the machine next to the Gaggia OWC (same size as a Classic) for comparison. I'm glad that it fits on the worktop.









Commissioning was straightforward if following DavecUK's guide.









So what's the coffee like? Too early to say, I must admit that after all that humping about and unpacking I was more in the mood for a beer than a coffee, but after commissioning I made an espresso, I'm not really an espresso drinker and don't usually drink coffee in the afternoon but you have to try don't you? Was it 'Angels dancing on your tongue' or 'Boris Johnson jumping up and down on your tongue with hobnail boots'? It was pretty good really, at least as good as anything my previous machines have produced and that was with no attempt to dial anything in and using stock settings, a very promising start.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Ohhh nice @Norvin be interested to hear your views re this and your old londinium.

Shame about the transit damage.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Cuprajake said:


> Ohhh nice @Norvin be interested to hear your views re this and your old londinium.
> 
> Shame about the transit damage.


 ACS pack their machines really well with shock absorbing feet on the machine to mitigate careless handling. But never underestimate the determination of couriers. The damage really isn't all that bad considering.

*Edit*. Paolo has offered to send me a replacement panel, it's great to deal with a manufacturer that cares for its customers.

I'll post in future once I get used to the machine and its capabilities, but you can say that I am happy with my choice so far.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake Hopefully, this weekend, my son is going to pull a couple of espressos on my Londinium that he has 'borrowed', then tsk the one mile to my house with the same beans and try a couple on the Evo......if it takes place I will report back


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Norvin Les, is that an E8 or E 10?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Blimey! That's "the" ultimate start up setup! I suppose you won't have upgaditus in a while, if at all! ????
> 
> yeah, get into roasting, but buy in line with your current equipment.. read: "Professional 5kg roaster" ????
> 
> Enjoy, keep us posted!










????


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> @Norvin Les, is that an E8 or E 10?


 E8, I think the classic black and polished aluminium/chrome look pairs really well with the Leva.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Norvin I had one when they first came out. Bought it with an E10 to try flat v conical. The K10 was the best grinder I ever owned but had a massive amount of retention. Might have to keep my eye peeled for one!


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> @Norvin I had one when they first came out. Bought it with an E10 to try flat v conical. The K10 was the best grinder I ever owned but had a massive amount of retention. Might have to keep my eye peeled for one!


 Every time I upgrade I think - right, that's it, no need to change anything now. Then...


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Norvin But tomorrow never comes!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Norvin said:


> Every time I upgrade I think - right, that's it, no need to change anything now. Then...


 Cure for all ills. Log out of forum


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Are the side panel color options just chrome or black?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Are the side panel color options just chrome or black?


 Ah, this is little hard to find but go to their instagram page and check out the options there. @acs__official


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> The one and only, EK43s! I have the multipurpose SSP burrs, but I'll try and get the HU when I can.
> 
> Ha after that I honestly don't know what I could possibly buy after that!😂
> 
> Maybe I'll get into roasting! 😛


 Congrats on starting with levers they are amazing. I too started with a lever (profitec pro 800). I haven't tried a pump machine myself but I used to make better espressos than shops using pump machines. Having the Evo Leva and the EK43s as a start up gear is awesome 😎 congrats! You have to try more burrs before you settle down but may I suggest the Turkish burrs by Mahlkönig! I always hear good things about them. Now you need a good conical grinder to taste different profiles (mainly for hot americanos I just love Conical/dark roasts combo even medium roasts with conicals are great). I was thinking about a roaster then I researched this intensively and I saw a lot selling their roasters either for the hassle that comes with it or the frustrating results. I would save up the roaster's money and buy great beans from professional roasters (just a thought).


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Are the side panel color options just chrome or black?


 I don't think so! I think they have a wide range of colors to choose from.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

So it's the first morning with this machine here at Chez Norvin. Time to get caffeinated. Too early to go through the weighing procedure with Mrs Norvin. It's 6.00 am, she just wants a coffee. Ok dear, here's what you do, grind and tamp just like before, put the portafilter in place and pull the lever (She manages to pull it down, phew, I was worried that she may not be able to pull the double spring lever, not that I ever mentioned that to her before), wait until the first drops appear out of the portafilter spout and lift the lever and see the espresso flow out. Bugger, I forgot to put a cup under the portafilter, watch espresso flow into the plastic catch container. Ok, I'll definitely have to incude a cup in the routine. Try again, this time with a cup, wait until the pressure falls on the group gauge and move the cup away. Yes, I can hear the tuts from here but I'll sort out the dialling in details later. So after this very amateur performance, what's the coffee like dear? - 'it's gorgeous'.

I have changed the handles to the wooden ones, I think that they look much nicer.









Unexpected benefit of having the Minima type steam arm is that you are steaming much nearer to your face than the usual place near the drip tray. You can see what's going on and have a much better view of the foaming process.

Grind is still not right, needs coarsening. Takes extra effort to pull lever than the single spring Londinium but it's really nothing to worry about. Can't see much flexing.

Two more pictures from yesterday.

















If anybody is in the area, they are welcome to come and have a look.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Looks mint mate!

I have also gone for the Minima steam wand for the exact reason, just to have it higher.

Had second thoughts about it but now I see it in your pictures looks good.

Hoping it won`t be too long to get mine.

Tracking of this morning says it`s still pending completion of customs inspection. 😠

10 days since it arrived in the country. Just my luck!

At least its Fridaaaaay !


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I always liked the Minima steam wand shape....*a lot*. It's why I suggested he make it an option on the Evo. Perhaps doesn't look as flashy as the antenna...but it think it's super functional, and I'm 6 ft 2" 😁


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Norvin Can you show us a close up of the wood you chose Norvin.....welcome by the way, to the magical mystery tour.....you are going to discover, that a lot of things you learnt to mitigate your L1 shots, are now redundant!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Norvin Awesome mate! The machine looks beautiful with the Minima arm.

@hysaf I too have gone for the minima arm. I am sure you will get your Evo in the next few days.

Have fun playing with Evo guys.

We look forward to more reviews, shots videos, &#8230;.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> @Norvin Can you show us a close up of the wood you chose Norvin.....welcome by the way, to the magical mystery tour.....you are going to discover, that a lot of things you learnt to mitigate your L1 shots, are now redundant!


 Here you go. I didn't choose the wooden handles, they came in the box of goodies with the machine.









Ive just made another flat white. 18.2g in, 30 secs to fall in pressure, 38.6g out, and that's with the machine just out of the box, just coarsened the grind a little from previous setting. Very nice. Foaming is really good with the two hole steam tip. Haven't tried the three hole tip yet but as I only steam small quantities at a time, I'm not likely to.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin Don't forget to note the pressure for that coffee at which it's 38.6g, as you can use the pressure gauge rather than scales to get within 0.5g of that weight...saves a lot of hassle.

I think with the 2 hole tip it really maintains velocity, which is very important when foaming. The steaming will be good compared to what you are used to with the Londinium. Although the boiler at 2.3l appears to be the same size, it doesn't have a HX unit taking up space inside, and it's vertical, allowing an increased fill. This gives you a huge steam battery..


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Steam boiler is definitely more powerful than the Londinium which is powerful.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Upped group heaters to 94c and brew boiler to 104c


 On this machine, do you configure every single heating source independently (i.e.: group, brew boiler, service boiler) or do you key in a set temperature for brewing and the machine then decides on how to control the group temperature and the brew boiler temperature?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I'm just about to make a Coffee on the Evo (well in my case Frankenstien)...when I do I always feel a bit......I hope other owners do as well!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> On this machine, do you configure every single heating source independently (i.e.: group, brew boiler, service boiler) or do you key in a set temperature for brewing and the machine then decides on how to control the group temperature and the brew boiler temperature?


 Going to stick with 94c for group heaters and 104c for brew boiler for time being. This combination tweaked the best out of the test Columbian light roast producing a wonderfully fruit forward espresso without any sourness or bitterness. Dave's recommendation is to keep the brew boiler within 8-10c of the group heaters to achieve stable brew temp during extraction. You can achieve a rising or declining brew temperature by adjusting the group heaters and brew boiler temperatures.

Basically, the Evo can do basically anything you want, temperature-wise during extraction. For me, what drew me to the Evo project was the reassurance that whatever brew temperature I set, it would be maintained during the entire extraction. This, IMO, is crucial to get the best out of lighter roasts which, by nature, require longer pre-infusion. In a thermosyphon set up, the group is heated by it which is an elegantly simple design. The drawback is, once the lever is cocked, the thermosyphon is interrupted so the water in the brew chamber is reliant on the group's thermal mass to keep it at the correct temperature. With short PIs, this isn't a problem but once you go long, PI-wise, there is bound to be an inevitable decline in the brew water's temp of several degrees.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I just finished enjoying this mornings coffee...here is the video. No pressure smashing the puck, or slamming or whatever else it's called. All looked and tasted good to me. If you want flex, then the Alpha 1 test bed is the place to look. not only no strengthening, all of it was removed, that groups just on the front panel, no bottom panels, scrap case...but I love it.

I added some YT modern music more in line with the modern approach to levers., whilst still keeping it simple....enjoy.






As usual, no rehearsals, just a walk up and shoot....


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Here you go. I didn't choose the wooden handles, they came in the box of goodies with the machine.
> 
> View attachment 58211
> 
> ...


 The wood handles and the black ones look beautiful 🤩 ACS has great taste and I'm jealous of the servicing kit 😂

Congrats on the machine and enjoy. Share roast profiles and recipes when you can.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Contents of two of the bags in the goodie box.

Left is a group rebuild kit, and I guess that the other relates to the steam and water taps.









Pity there's no piston in the kit, and there's no good reason why they should have included one, I could have used it to investigate the making a special tool for removing the piston.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Norvin said:


> making a special tool for removing the piston.


 If someone wants to maintain the group (change gaskets, lubricate it, etc) - Is the special tool required or can it be done without it?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Contents of two of the bags in the goodie box.
> 
> Left is a group rebuild kit, and I guess that the other relates to the steam and water taps.
> 
> ...


 Ok we need @DavecUKto gives us the same parts numbers in the picture as I think the servicing kit was offered to first batch only. When we have the names and parts numbers we can get them from espresso parts.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> Ok we need @DavecUKto gives us the same parts numbers in the picture as I think the servicing kit was offered to first batch only. When we have the names and parts numbers we can get them from espresso parts.


 If you keep on, you might give ACS ideas not to keep including it!










And when I remove my piston I will measure it and may get this...although I have a nice pair of stilsons that will undo it.

https://www.screwfix.com/p/hilka-pro-craft-adjustable-angle-grinder-pin-wrench-7/990jf


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

😂😂😂😂😂😂

oh no!!!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK If these aren't going to include these for the second batch, is it possible to include them optionally for any additional payment please? Thx


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If someone wants to maintain the group (change gaskets, lubricate it, etc) - Is the special tool required or can it be done without it?


 There was some discussion a few days ago on this thread. It appears that the piston may be really tight at first. Also, it looks like the best way to reassemble is to tighten the piston in-situ in order to get a good seal.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @DavecUK If @Paolo_Cortese and his team aren't going to include these for the second batch, is it possible to include them optionally for any additional payment please? Thx


 Ooohhh...your giving him ideas...


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Ooohhh...your giving him ideas...


 😂😂😅


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> There was some discussion a few days ago on this thread. It appears that the piston may be really tight at first. Also, it looks like the best way to reassemble is to tighten the piston in-situ in order to get a good seal.


 When tightening, you have to be careful not to distort the seal and enough to cause it to puff out a tad...they use thread locker initially (for some stupid reason). It's not actually tight...when removing, clean the thread of old locker, wrap with 2 turns of PTFE (which will aid removal next time).


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> 😂😂😅


 I blame @Norvin🤷🏻‍♂️


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> nice pair of stilsons that will undo it.


 Link please


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Congrats on starting with levers they are amazing. I too started with a lever (profitec pro 800). I haven't tried a pump machine myself but I used to make better espressos than shops using pump machines. Having the Evo Leva and the EK43s as a start up gear is awesome 😎 congrats! You have to try more burrs before you settle down but may I suggest the Turkish burrs by Mahlkönig! I always hear good things about them. Now you need a good conical grinder to taste different profiles (mainly for hot americanos I just love Conical/dark roasts combo even medium roasts with conicals are great). I was thinking about a roaster then I researched this intensively and I saw a lot selling their roasters either for the hassle that comes with it or the frustrating results. I would save up the roaster's money and buy great beans from professional roasters (just a thought).


 Yeah I've been researching machines for a year now and whilst the decent can do anything profile I heard that most users use a lever profile. Plus the looks and experience are just so cool. Yeah I've also heard the Turkish burrs are also good. Do you know how they compare against SSP HU? HA i might try roasting one day though


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

personally i always removed the piston from the top just unscrewing the 4 bolts and you have the whole assembled piston in your hand. I have the "special tool" used one time but there is a problem, or well more than one. 1 if the piston is stuck on the axis you will remove the whole system with springs and than will be not easy to assemble everything in place if you don't have other "special tolls". 2 if you are able to remove the piston, you can basically change only the gasket with lip, the teflon gasket and the top oring will be a pain in the ass.... 3 a lot of times!!! The special tools is mostly used when the machine sit in a bar and the gasket with lip leak so often a fast operation could be remove from the bottom, in my opinion no. Also removing from the top is a good thing to check the shape of the cylinder inside.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Link please


 These are Stilsons, just get one that opens up far enough.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bahco-361-14-14-inch-Stillson-Wrench/dp/B001OXGUSS/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_i=B001OXGUSS&psc=1

before anyone says, oh but they will mark the Piston....so what, it's the seal that does the work and the teflon ring keeps the thing away from the wall. It's purely cosmetic and not something you are going to see.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @DavecUK If these aren't going to include these for the second batch, is it possible to include them optionally for any additional payment please? Thx


 See, he was watching....!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> personally i always removed the piston from the top just unscrewing the 4 bolts and you have the whole assembled piston in your hand. I have the "special tool" used one time but there is a problem, or well more than one. 1 if the piston is stuck on the axis you will remove the whole system with springs and than will be not easy to assemble everything in place if you don't have other "special tolls". 2 if you are able to remove the piston, you can basically change only the gasket with lip, the teflon gasket and the top oring will be a pain in the ass.... 3 a lot of times!!! The special tools is mostly used when the machine sit in a bar and the gasket with lip leak so often a fast operation could be remove from the bottom, in my opinion no. Also removing from the top is a good thing to check the shape of the cylinder inside.


 Hi @Paolo_Corteseand thanks for the information. Is reinstalling the whole thing back in difficult? I heard that we don't need any greasing with this great group head and the teflon gasket was designed for that reason. What's your thoughts on that?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> Yeah I've been researching machines for a year now and whilst the decent can do anything profile I heard that most users use a lever profile. Plus the looks and experience are just so cool. Yeah I've also heard the Turkish burrs are also good. Do you know how they compare against SSP HU? HA i might try roasting one day though


 I sent you a pm. I don't want to derail the thread 👍🏻


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> Hi @Paolo_Corteseand thanks for the information. Is reinstalling the whole thing back in difficult? I heard that we don't need any greasing with this great group head and the teflon gasket was designed for that reason. What's your thoughts on that?


 You should use Molykote 111 on the seal, probably don't need to add any on the teflon, but a thin smear can't hurt.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Three things:



Paolo says removing from the top is good as we get access to the whole thing. My original thought was the same.


Reinstallation is difficult without special tools. This isn't going to be an option for many.


He doesn't seem to recommend the bottoms up approach.


What does it mean for us ? I know it's early days and clarity will emerge at the right time.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> You should use Molykot111 on the seal, probably don't need to add any on the teflon, but a thin smear can't hurt.


 Seal and teflon are latin and greek for me. Picture with name will be easier to understand. 😂


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> See, he was watching....!


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Three things:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 What they said is good news. It's best to assemble on the bench, no need for a special tool to tighten in situ, there may be some difficulty in taking it apart the first time due to locking sealant but after that it should be easy. Stilsons or similar will do.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> What they said is good news. It's best to assemble on the bench, no need for a special tool to tighten in situ, there may be some difficulty in taking it apart the first time due to locking sealant but after that it should be easy. Stilsons or similar will do.


 I reckon we would require a bench vice with rubber padding


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> These are Stilsons, just get one that opens up far enough.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Bahco-361-14-14-inch-Stillson-Wrench/dp/B001OXGUSS/ref=pd_lpo_1?pd_rd_i=B001OXGUSS&psc=1
> 
> before anyone says, oh but they will mark the Piston....so what, it's the seal that does the work and the teflon ring keeps the thing away from the wall. It's purely cosmetic and not something you are going to see.


 KNIPEX Pliers Wrench pliers and a wrench in a single tool can also considered if one doesn't a mark. They aren't cheap, but may be fine to pay with the amount being spent on the machine.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I see more people that get the machine, or so to speak the guys from 1st batch are mostly drinking normal (traditional) rich well developed coffee on traditional grinders. I have nothing against that, I respect it and understand it.

The good part out of all of that is the simplicity that gives you really consistent (cause not many extra steps) and delicious results, and for some that is all that is important.

But coffee has many faces now, and there are many ways to do espresso (you can judge them being wrong, or inappropriate, like 5-10 years ago nobody would even bother buying underdeveloped nordic filter roast to pull it in espresso). But now things are better documented and the results are good, if you want to dedicate the time, and experimentation.

This video shows a complex (not 100% necessary, or 100% right or wrong, you can throw stones at it) and I am not the one preparing the puck and this is not my video, it's a repost from Decent forum. In the video there is an experimentation with a inward comb for a really unimodal grinder, because the puck get's compressed and has a concave shape after extraction.

I was maybe expecting more "modern" and crazy guys to be in the first batch, but it seems not. We will be in the second batch and experiment from there, and see the capabilities, or the crazy things we ask.

Here is the video with the puck prep.

https://streamable.com/1rp7b5

@DavecUK your shot this morning looks great, but if I would use some coffee I got here, pulling that long on a specific grinder, you would probably never talk to me again If I would serv a 45+ sec shot out of it, just because it gets so bad if I pass 25-28 sec (the grinder extracts too much and you end up with a muddy/medicine taste).

In general, and knowing my water grinders, I follow these guide-lines:

light roasted filter stuff- 16-25 sec in 1-2+ for high extraction grinders

medium roasted stuff- 25-35 sec in 1-2 ratio with normal grinders.

darker roasted stuff, blends, robusta mix- 40-60 sec shots in under 1-2 ratio with normal grinders.

If I try to pull 16-25 sec shots from Niche and light roasted coffee it's gonna taste like battery acid, sour and bitter at the same time. This is why they came up with blooming for Niche and light roasts, it is a 60 sec shot but with no flow for 30 sec.

I am sure I will get along with the machine, and learn it fast, find it's limits.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I'm not sure what we are trying to do with the piston so not sure it will work, but to hold smooth cylindrical parts I have a rubber tool which works pretty well, it's called the boa constrictor.


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Denis S said:


> I see more people that get the machine, or so to speak the guys from 1st batch are mostly drinking normal (traditional) rich well developed coffee on traditional grinders. I have nothing against that, I respect it and understand it.
> 
> The good part out of all of that is the simplicity that gives you really consistent (cause not many extra steps) and delicious results, and for some that is all that is important.
> 
> ...


 Denis I share your curiosity about brew parameter options - although my tastes are for traditional roasts and i have a alex leva/niche so options perhaps limited anyway

too much talk here about long term maintenance- tell me about the espresso, people!!

Also interested in what you are hoping a leva can do for you that your de1+ cannot? (I had, liked, but finally sold my de1+ so a similar journey although different tastes)


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I am hoping to get the extraction parameters as consistent as possible (the only modular thing would be when you raise the lever but with a hall sensor and a Timer I would have a timer already for the machine, that would start when the pump starts) so I can focus more on puck prep, instead of changing profiles.

The main reason why I go away from decent is the grind size. Recently (Jan 2021) me and a bunch a friends got Bentwood C63 grinder, and while comparing the shots with the same coffee/basket I was grinding the finest and this is a trend that is valid for Decent due to it's big headspace and low flow at high pressure, or low flow in preinfusion.

My friends grind much coarser than me and this is not only on this grinder but on other grinders too.

For example, I know a bunch of you guys have Niche (a good grinder for the price), on the Decent people would use it in between 7 and 13 with 18g doses.

Normally I know people grinds on Niche a bit coarser, but just to give you an idea about grinds size related to Decent.

I am also in need for more aggressive flow at a much higher pressure, something that Decent can't really maintain. It can pull Alonges at low pressure/high flow big ratio but I am not looking for that.

The machine is really solid, and again, I'm glad that what was proposed got accomplished by the Paolo & his team, and Dave of course for talking to us and posting videos with the prototype. His videos got me curious into it.

Another thing to mention about Decent (owning over 20 machines) is the build quality related to price. Because it's so much going on inside, and it has so many hardware parts and so much dev into software, the machine is lacking big time on build quality. Thin materials, bending legs, from time to time breaking parts and the most common software bugs. While I do not like that I have great words about the team there fixing stuff fast and customer service is top. I also promised myself many many times I wont buy a vibratory pump machine ever again, and here I am with a decent (2 vibratory pumps).


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

MW11 said:


> Hi @Paolo_Corteseand thanks for the information. Is reinstalling the whole thing back in difficult? I heard that we don't need any greasing with this great group head and the teflon gasket was designed for that reason. What's your thoughts on that?


 we do not use grease or vaseline or something like that, reassembling is easy, of course i know how i can do that, in any way you cannot put the pieces differently otherwise you cannot screw back. Normally also for other thing i make a photo just in case i forgot, often my head is somewhere else.........


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> boa constrictor.


 Sorry. Can't resist. Ouch! 😰🤣


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> I'm not sure what we are trying to do with the piston so not sure it will work, but to hold smooth cylindrical parts I have a rubber tool which works pretty well, it's called the boa constrictor.





Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Sorry. Can't resist. Ouch! 😰🤣


 Here is what my Boa Constrictor looks like gripping the 53mm Espro tamper.

The rubber strap that does the gripping is 18mm wide/tall. @Paolo_Cortese - can you comment on whether there will be enough room for the strap to get a firm grip on the piston going from from the top of the group?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

@SL01a strap wrench. I have a similar thing a friend gave me for opening tight jars. Good call as might work in a pinch.

@Denis Swatched that video - see where going with that, but a bit overkill for me except perhaps when I've got time on my hands. Often I'm in a rush first thing with kids, or between jobs at work etc. I am interested in seeing results of the puck screen, particularly in a deeper basket if there is space above..


----------



## biggoldensun (Jun 13, 2021)

I just put in some Passalacqua Vesuvio. 18g in, 36g out, extraction time about 40second.. I'm in heaven......


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

biggoldensun said:


> I just put in some Passalacqua Vesuvio. 18g in, 36g out, extraction time about 40second.. I'm in heaven......


 Enjoy 🤤


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> @SL01a strap wrench. I have a similar thing a friend gave me for opening tight jars. Good call as might work in a pinch.
> 
> @Denis Swatched that video - see where going with that, but a bit overkill for me except perhaps when I've got time on my hands. Often I'm in a rush first thing with kids, or between jobs at work etc. I am interested in seeing results of the puck screen, particularly in a deeper basket if there is space above..


 The model Boa Constrictor I have is quite a beast with the 18mm wide strap. I use 2 of them to free up and unscrew reluctant objects up to 120mm Ø.

However, the thick straps give good grip but not the most flexible to fit in tighter spaces or grip objects smaller in diameter. From what I can tell gripping the 53mm tamper, it's almost at the edge of adhesion. Compound that with the actual gripping surface, if it's less than 18mm wide, the grip would be less with an accelerated decline as the surface area decreases.

When it works, it's magic and a major contributor to blood pressure reduction.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

To be fair to Decent it is a different machine than the std E61 or Lever with huge amount of brass acting as a heat sink and their aim was different. They are also transparent with the type and number of failures, which in reality is not high. My biggest issue , which @Denis Smentioned, is software. It is moving so fast with improvements all the time, they even have an update called nightly, it can be a worry knowing when to update. I have stayed on the stable version, but even then there are sometimes bugs in that. Gets sorted very quickly once found but can be overwhelming.

I think any machine can have problems, i.e. a new Izzo Alex Leva was mentioned a few posts earlier, it's how they're dealt with is the acid test and in this regard, Decent are excellent. I do own a Decent, but also have an ACS Vesuvius and an Evo Leva on order for July so am not just a Decent fanboy 😁


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

This is the piston tool I'm going to try once the lugs are filed down. Although hopefully if approaching from the top of the group, as Paolo mentioned, it might not be needed


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Denis S said:


> I see more people that get the machine, or so to speak the guys from 1st batch are mostly drinking normal (traditional) rich well developed coffee on traditional grinders. I have nothing against that, I respect it and understand it.
> 
> The good part out of all of that is the simplicity that gives you really consistent (cause not many extra steps) and delicious results, and for some that is all that is important.
> 
> ...


 That video is all sorts of ridiculous and not in a good way.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I may have missed it...but can any Evo owner tell me if the metal thread in

1)the lever handle and

2)the portafilter

is M10 or M12 please?

From memory the lever handle only is faux-walnut (for safety reasons) and other knobs etc are actual walnut. Is that correct?


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Paolo5 said:


> I may have missed it...but can any Evo owner tell me if the metal thread in
> 
> 1)the lever handle and
> 
> ...


 The lever handle is M12 x 1.75 x 16mm protrusion.

Portafilter handle is M10 x 1.5 x 16mm protrusion.

Lever handle is resin (a good match to the others, you have to look carefully to see that it isn't wood), all others are wood.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks Norvin....just what I wanted to know.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> The lever handle is M12 x 1.75 x 16mm protrusion.
> 
> Portafilter handle is M10 x 1.5 x 16mm protrusion.
> 
> Lever handle is resin (a good match to the others, you have to look carefully to see that it isn't wood), all others are wood.


 The resin is purely a safety issue (wood splitting)...due to the increased force the lever handle is subjected to...nothing to do with cost of wood or anything like that.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I've been repairing the crate this morning in case I need it in future. I made two new legs to replace the missing ones (not sure if ACS list them as spares 😀) . DHL have ruined the case, I'll never get the scratches out 😄.









Pictured shows the rubber shock absorbing feet in place, they screw into the machine in place of the feet and hold it in place.

Really substantial, total package with machine was declared as 59KG.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin never ceases to amaze me how Brutal DHL can be! I actually wonder if they knocked the feet off with a forklift?


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I am thinking of stencilling 'Nitroglycerine' on the case.

Anyone who saw the film The Wages of Fear will know how carefully those couriers drove.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

It beats me how could a courier be so careless. Incidents like this eats into businesses' bottom line and risking the survival, depending on the size.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee I remember years ago a Retailer asked the courier firms if they could use shockwatch devices on the packages containing coffee machines. They all refused to carry anything with a shockwatch device on the exterior.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee I remember years ago a Retailer asked the courier firms if they could use shockwatch devices on the packages containing coffee machines. They all refused to carry anything with a shockwatch device on the exterior.


 The proof is in the pudding. 😀

What they don't realise is a little bit of TLC while handling parcels can save a fortune for every one in the value chain. The effect on the economy is beneficial.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I've been repairing the crate this morning in case I need it in future. I made two new legs to replace the missing ones (not sure if ACS list them as spares 😀) . DHL have ruined the case, I'll never get the scratches out 😄.
> 
> View attachment 58261
> 
> ...


 @Norvin, would you mind measuring the overall W/D/H when the whole crate is assembled as shipped from ACS? I'd like to know definitely if I need to arrange a rental in case DHL requires me to pick it up at their depot. Thanks.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

SL01 said:


> @Norvin, would you mind measuring the overall W/D/H when the whole crate is assembled as shipped from ACS? I'd like to know definitely if I need to arrange a rental in case DHL requires me to pick it up at their depot. Thanks.


 It's still in bits for storage, I measure 61Lx46W and assuming DHL have left the legs on H is 69.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> I am thinking of stencilling 'Nitroglycerine' on the case.
> 
> Anyone who saw the film The Wages of Fear will know how carefully those couriers drove.


 Yup this is how you want your coffee machine delivered


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> It's still in bits for storage, I measure 61Lx46W and assuming DHL have left the legs on H is 69.


 Thank you! This is what I really needed.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

> 2 hours ago, DavecUK said:
> 
> Yup this is how you want your coffee machine delivered


 Our DHL drivers wear white glove, wingtip shoes and speak the Queen's English. There.

NOT!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

SL01 said:


> Our DHL drivers wear white glove, wingtip shoes and speaks the Queen's English. There.
> 
> NOT.


 lol


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

One are where I thing the Evo scores over the traditional box looks of the E61 type machines, is the wonderful Italian styling. The lines it has are actually interesting and very pleasant on the eye from any angle. The coloured screen is also a great addition to break up the se of highly polished stainless. I was a bit apprehensive at first as I detest cleaning but using a sponge with a drop of washing up liquid then buffing with a microfibre is easy


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> lol


 Only in America: the land of the free [dropkick] and the home of the brave [customer]. Guilty as charged to the latter.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

I had a 50 kg machine delivered in perfect condition last week - only problem was where was it delivered?

Found it up the street, had to carry 100 yards down a steep hill, past my clearly marked address on my letterbox on my driveway right outside my house, then up a flight of stairs.

Ironic thing was they requested I be at home to help the courier driver carry it in.

At least they left it up the hill.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

was it delivered to another house? If so, why did they accept it?​


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I could have given you my address if it helped 😂


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> was it delivered to another house? If so, why did they accept it?​


 Yes, another house but nobody was home so they left it at the door. Fortunately I received the "Delivered" email the moment it arrived in my inbox and went walkies.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

shimon said:


> Yes, another house but nobody was home so they left it at the door. Fortunately I received the "Delivered" email the moment it arrived in my inbox and went walkies.





The Systemic Kid said:


> ​
> was it delivered to another house? If so, why did they accept it?​


 A similar thing happened to me. Had to be away for a moment and, when I come home, a heavy and bulky package is at my door, and I'm not even the addressee! The currier companies tend to just leave at the door step these days if you don't answer the door. Kind of ridiculous if you ask me!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

shimon said:


> Yes, another house but nobody was home so they left it at the door. Fortunately I received the "Delivered" email the moment it arrived in my inbox and went walkies.


 I'm glad they had sent you a delivery notice! How did you manage to carry the crate ? Did you have a trolley ?


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I'm glad they had sent you a delivery notice! How did you manage to carry the crate ? Did you have a trolley ?


 It wasn't an EVO coming from O/S but an Izzo Valexia from interstate just in its cardboard box. When I found it and picked it up, I thought just carrying it would be easier than it was. So exhaused when I got back I didn't unbox for a few hours.

And just to rub it in, the day after I had an even bigger box arrive successfully at my door: 1/100th of the worth and paper light - because it was paper - 40 kitchen paper towel rolls on special at Amazon.

Might be worth Rusty Pie, Aussie Paolo, Elephantoplasty, DaveEC and any other Aussies who might be taking delivery of an EVO soon knowing that it might simply be left on your doorstep regardless of delivery instructions. We have next to zero Covid here but couriers usually get paid by the number of deliveries, so whatever's quickest.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

shimon said:


> it might simply be left on your doorstep regardless of delivery instructions.


 A warning bell to all of us. The trouble is mid-July thru end Aug is also a vacation time. I wonder how we are going to plan our 2 weeks of summer vacation and Evo delivery. I need to check with Paolo re-his plans for the 2nd batch, without putting him and his team under pressure.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

That's why i'm going on vacation in one week.

One question regarding the steam wand (the long one). Do you think If you had the short water tap on the left, and the commercial long steam and on the right, because of the way it goes up it will interfere a bit with the space for the display/touch? I am having a bit of second thought about the fact that I went with short water tap left and long steam wand right. Because all my machines had the steam on the right, I feel it's more familiar and better specially if you have the machine placed near a big wall to the left or near a kitchen taller cabinet, or in some cases near a fridge cabinet/closet.

Maybe it's more ergonomic to have the long steam wand to the left and the short water tap to the right? What you think?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Denis S said:


> i'm going on vacation in one week.


 Can't do that in my case Denis. Two key workers and I will have to plan around their schedule especially the one at the hospital 😊



Denis S said:


> Maybe it's more ergonomic to have the long steam wand to the left and the short water tap to the right? What you think?


 Dave is the right person to comment on the interference of the long-steam arm with the display.

But, I thought you should be able to move the long-steam arm out of the way when you do not need it.

I have opted for the minima style. The steam on the right as the machine will be on one end of the kitchen work top and that too conveniently located next to the window. .


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

To be honest, I never steam. I have the Decent for 11 months and I steamed maybe 5 times on it for some guests.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Denis S said:


> To be honest, I never steam. I have the Decent for 11 months and I steamed maybe 5 times on it for some guests.


 Perhaps, the Vesuvius steam arm, if you still want to keep the steam on the right


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Denis S said:


> That's why i'm going on vacation in one week.
> 
> One question regarding the steam wand (the long one). Do you think If you had the short water tap on the left, and the commercial long steam and on the right, because of the way it goes up it will interfere a bit with the space for the display/touch? I am having a bit of second thought about the fact that I went with short water tap left and long steam wand right. Because all my machines had the steam on the right, I feel it's more familiar and better specially if you have the machine placed near a big wall to the left or near a kitchen taller cabinet, or in some cases near a fridge cabinet/closet.
> 
> Maybe it's more ergonomic to have the long steam wand to the left and the short water tap to the right? What you think?


 I don't think that it matters, just go for the configuration that suits you and the situation of the machine. I am left handed and the steam arm is on the left so I can stand in front of the machine when steaming, it's what I find most comfortable. If you stand in front of the machine will be able to see the display with the steam arm on the right but you don't look at the display when making coffee, by the time you pull the lever that die is cast, you will be preoccupied with watching the pressure gauge, scales etc.

I have been trying to develop the 'muscle memory' to streamline the procedure. Early days, so many things to think of; watch scales, pressure gauge and stopwatch, slide scales out of the way with cup perched on top and slide catch container in its place, all while holding the stop watch. It all settles down and as @DavecUK says, once you find the pressure reading on the dial that corresponds to the volume that you want (6 Bar in my case) you can dispense with the scales (and stopwatch in my case) and move the cup away just as it reaches that point. It's easily anticipated, pressure starts at about 10 Bar and slowly falls at a steady pace to 6, then drops rapidly.

I find that I can't steam while the coffee is pouring as you have to drop everything when the needle gets near the 'drop off point' to move the cup out of the way.

It's a little bit different from the Londinium routine but I'm getting there.

Strangely, the coffee that I make is better than that made by by wife yet most of the variables are the same, so it must be in the tamping, we are both learning. Although I don't discount the idea that she may be deliberately cocking it up so that I have to make coffee for her.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

I do like to steam while I extract as there's something nice (but maybe in the head) about mixing the milk while crema hasn't reduced. Possibly that same feeling as when parts of a meal get done in parallel and all come together perfectly at the end.

But on the previous machine with the wand on the left, I'd sometimes hit the back of my wrist against a scorching hot steam tip when unlocking the PF. People would ask me why I have red dots on my wrist (as well as no hairs on one arm as I'm also into knife sharpening).

I do like it better on the right, as I now have it with the lever.

Do you really need to have a catching container? I see this a lot and wonder what's wrong with the drip tray.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

shimon said:


> Do you really need to have a catching container? I see this a lot and wonder what's wrong with the drip tray.


 you don't need the catching container. It's just easier to keep the machine - including the drip tray - clean and avoiding to empty frequently. I do that even for E61 machines when rinsing the group after a shot.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I would just like to talk about the advantage a heater cartridge brings to the table. The reference, ready to go, is not the temp of the boiler(s) but means that in a normal group head, the boilers have come to temp and then the water has passed through the group head bringing that to a working temp. On some other machines, owners talk about a fast fix for this such as wrapping towels around the grouped or flushing vast amounts of water though but I cannot stress enough, switched on in the morning with brew boiler only, this is ready to go in 15 mins


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> On some other machines, owners talk about a fast fix for this such as wrapping towels around the grouped or flushing vast amounts of water though but I cannot stress enough, switched on in the morning with brew boiler only, this is ready to go in 15 mins


 Oh yeah! I remember doing that with my old Pro-700. Guests coming over, unplanned, quick visit, just to "say hello". I have to offer then a cup of coffee! Wrap a towel around the E61, turn it on, wait about 20 minutes, flush, flush and it was ready. 🙂

One of the reasons I bought the Elizabeth was the fast heat up time in 17-18 minutes. And that's because the boiler is mounted right on top of the group. One of the advantages which draws me to the Evo (unfortunately for me it's a no no due to its size) is exactly that: I want a coffee, I turn the machine on, wait 15 minutes and I have a coffee. For me, for someone who doesn't leave the machine on all day, it's a great advantage.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> (unfortunately for me it's a no no due to its size)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hysaf said:


> Looks mint mate!
> 
> I have also gone for the Minima steam wand for the exact reason, just to have it higher.
> 
> ...


 Has your machine arrived, is it OK how are you finding it?


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Thanks for asking Dave!

Arrived yesterday afternoon, managed to set it up on the bench ,but didn`t have too much time to play with it!

Had Border Patrol tape all over the case, they clearly opened it and had a wee look inside (curious bastards!)

Pushed some liters of water thru the boilers to flush and pulled a couple of shots.

The lever-group is very impressive ,looks absolutely gorgeous. Also the force required to pull it down suprised me, I had to tell my other half to be particularly careful with it so she doesn`t knock any teeth out!

Quick questions: Could you describe what I need to do to adjust the preinfusion pressure( it`s at around 1bar now)?

Also pulling shots I noticed that the pressure on the manometer was at 8 bar, does that mean I need to go finer with my grind to get more closer to 11bar ?

Cheers, very excited for this afternoon after finishing work to play more with it!


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

You very quickly get used to the force needed to cock the lever, I stopped thinking about it and found myself pulling it one handed yesterday.

Dave will give a better answer to the other questions but as far as I know you adjust the pre infusion via the pressurestat on top of the boiler, you can increase the extraction pressure by gently pushing on the lever during the shot while watching the gauge.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Just opened it up to remove the rear panel to assess the courier damage - cosmetic only.

Here is a picture of the insides,









and from the back showing counterweight -


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have only ever cocked the lever using one arm! Dave had prepared me for some serious grunt but in reality, it is not needed. The one thing I did note, and Patrick stated this, was once you have begun to cock the lever, the force required to complete the cycle diminishes as the pull concludes. No idea why, but very welcome. When I was t my sons last night I cocked the L1......the technique required is very different!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hysaf said:


> Thanks for asking Dave!
> 
> Arrived yesterday afternoon, managed to set it up on the bench ,but didn`t have too much time to play with it!
> 
> ...


 You need to go finer on your grind to get it to 10.5 ish bar. My group is a 7+ year old scrap ex commercially used group, so it just gets over 10 bar.... You might then find the preinfusion pressure is actually higher than 1 bar. I suspect your pump may not be stopping, but pulsing because the grind is too coarse. I believe the machines are factory set to 2.5 ish bar.

The process is in the user guide and if you have not seen it here is a link. Sadly, I don't have a production machine, with all the features you have, so I did my best with the userguide...please forgive any errors



  

ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva Owners Manual (ver 1.0)

The Vesuvius Evo Leva is a high quality prosumer grade dual boiler espresso machine using the commercially configured Spring Lever Group. Independent group heater cartridges, with individua&#8230;



Go to this Sway



If you do need to adjust preinfusion pressure...the process is below.

4 Allen bolts, remove the lid and you adjust via the pressurestat...big hole..I think it might have a red cap on it. Until you get it where you want it, lay the top plate on without refitting the allen bolts for easy access. If there is a red cap on the large pressure adjustment hole, leave it out until you have it as you want it. Don't touch the small adjuster, that is the deadband and doesn't need adjustment. Clockwise to increase pressure, anticlockwise to reduce it.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I have only ever cocked the lever using one arm! Dave had prepared me for some serious grunt but in reality, it is not needed. The one thing I did note, and Patrick stated this, was once you have begun to cock the lever, the force required to complete the cycle diminishes as the pull concludes. No idea why, but very welcome. When I was t my sons last night I cocked the L1......the technique required is very different!


 All part of developing the 'muscle memory'. When I started learning to drive a car there were so many things to think about; clutch, accellerator, gears, steering etc. It was confusing at first. But as you get more familiar with it, things become automatic and you can concentrate on other things. Same with the Leva as some aspects of making coffee are different, when I showed my wife how to use it for the first time there were so many things going on that I forgot to put a cup under. It's now getting automatic, I can concentrate on other things. I may even start playing with the settings sometime.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Will play around as soon as I get home in a couple of hours!

Grinder wise I have an Eureka Zenith 65 HS ,I`ll give the burrs and the chamber a clean so I can start afresh and take it one step at the time.

Fun times ahead!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Congrats @hysaf!! May your espressos be always tiger-stripped and delicious 🤤 Amen 🙏🏻

I think there is a choice that no one talked about in recent replies but if you don't like the higher pressure or find pulling the evo's lever a bit stronger than you like then you can always remove the smaller spring and have the same pressure as Bosco Sorrento (just saying 🤷🏻‍♂️)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> Congrats @hysaf!! May your espressos be always tiger-stripped and delicious 🤤 Amen 🙏🏻
> 
> I think there is a choice that no one talked about in recent replies but if you don't like the higher pressure or find pulling the evo's lever a bit stronger than you like then you can always remove the smaller spring and have the same pressure as Bosco Sorrento (just saying 🤷🏻‍♂️)


 Although I would urge persevering with the professional configuration, as it works really well. With a single spring 80% of the shot is going to be at 3-6 bar....which is really a bit low. The lever can be very accurately be retarded if you want to control pressure for a particular bean.



hysaf said:


> Will play around as soon as I get home in a couple of hours!
> 
> Grinder wise I have an Eureka Zenith 65 HS ,I`ll give the burrs and the chamber a clean so I can start afresh and take it one step at the time.
> 
> Fun times ahead!


 Make sure you play with the temperatures as well Patrick found a huge difference in having a constant group and hence brew water temp, compared to the 6C or more delta of more conventional lever machines.

It's also definitely worth running with the steam boiler off as standard.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Although I would urge persevering with the professional configuration, as it works really well. With a single spring 80% of the shot is going to be at 3-6 bar....which is really a bit low. The lever can be very accurately be retarded if you want to control pressure for a particular bean.


 Would this not be ideal for light roasts?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

gearosthyd said:


> Would this not be ideal for light roasts?


 Good question. As feedback from Evo users builds - that question will be centre stage.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

That would be ideal for ssp unimodal burrs (64 brew brews, 64 ssp Multi-purpose and 98mm high uniformity).

There are other burrs that would benefit from it maybe, like ultra burrs from Eg1/LW.

Again, this is a 100% demonstrated fact, it's not my mind. I would do it only for those burrs, for the rest no.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Although I would urge persevering with the professional configuration, as it works really well. With a single spring 80% of the shot is going to be at 3-6 bar....which is really a bit low. The lever can be very accurately be retarded if you want to control pressure for a particular bean.
> 
> Make sure you play with the temperatures as well Patrick found a huge difference in having a constant group and hence brew water temp, compared to the 6C or more delta of more conventional lever machines.
> 
> It's also definitely worth running with the steam boiler off as standard.


 I`m not going to remove any springs. The reason for buying was because it`s double spring as per a commercial setup.

Huge advantage for me in having the dual boiler is that I keep the steam boiler off most of the time. My other half is the one that drinks the odd cappuccino on weekends and I can simply turn it on when I need it so I`m saving a lot of energy.

I have started playing with temperature surfing and indeed, I notice a difference, it`s easy enough to adjust with the touchscreen next to you  .

The Evo Leva is one of the best purchase decisions that I made in awhile, after starting off a year ago with a La Pavoni.

I look at it and still can`t believe it`s in my kitchen, I`m pulling shots of espresso, and in less than a year of the conception of it !

I`m working until 5pm everyday, downside to that is that I can't drink that many espresso`s in the evening 

Will post some pictures later in the week!! That's it for now, I have to run for a zoom meeting!

The weekend is looking very caffeinated !!


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Man I'm so excited to get my machine. It seems like everyone who has received their machine so far has no regretted their decision.

To continue the light roast/single spring setup. Is light roast here defined as the majority of filter roasts sold by specialty coffee Roasters? Or does it include what said Roasters call espresso roasts? I ask as I would be purchasing mostly espresso roasts from said Roasters.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@hysaf Buy decaf! There are some excellent ones available matey!

On a different note, chatting with ACS this morning and they have just had a cancellation for Batch 2......so one machine is available

p[email protected]


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> Man I'm so excited to get my machine. It seems like everyone who has received their machine so far has no regretted their decision.
> 
> To continue the light roast/single spring setup. Is light roast here defined as the majority of filter roasts sold by specialty coffee Roasters? Or does it include what said Roasters call espresso roasts? I ask as I would be purchasing mostly espresso roasts from said Roasters.


 Usually espresso roasts are darker. You are doing n for a real treat when your Evo arrives. Are you in the 2nd batch?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @hysaf Buy decaf! There are some excellent ones available matey!
> 
> On a different note, chatting with ACS this morning and they have just had a cancellation for Batch 2......so one machine is available
> 
> [email protected]


 Good news! I might have someone interested in taking that spot.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I just saw a fake account impersonating @DavecUKon HB asking about accessories for the Evo Leva like the LSM group head was just invented for this machine 😂😂😂😂

shows you how ignorant some are 😂😂

BTW I love my custom made Bravo tamper, distributer and dosing ring. 
prices in Brazilian currency are:

590 R$ leveling tamper (any size you choose - I got 54.7mm)

100 R$ extra tamper base ( I ordered another size 55mm)

490 R$ Distributor

390 R$ tamping stand

80 R$ Acrylic stand for the tamper and distributor

90 R$ Dosing ring

280 R$ international shipping to Saudi

I paid 18$ only for taxes and importing fees 👍🏻
these are the prices for custom made accessories (very impressive craftsmanship tbh). Other regular accessories can by found on any espresso parts store just type this on google search bar: UNKNOWN ODD SIZE LA SAN MARCO GROUP HEAD ACCESSORIES then google will ask you this:

Do you mean: I'm an idiot who is good for nothing?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

1 GBP = 6.94 BRL (For info)


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

MW11 said:


> I just saw a fake account impersonating @DavecUKon HB asking about accessories for the Evo Leva like the LSM group head was just invented for this machine 😂😂😂😂
> 
> shows you how ignorant some are 😂😂
> 
> ...


 You are one funny dude 🙂


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But, it does just pose the question, who would impersonate @DavecUK and to what purpose? One can only presume that they are some sort of pre-historic pondlife without a purpose other than to try and cause mischief, born from jealousy of the success of the Vesuvius Evo Leva.........or am I wrong?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> But, it does just pose the question, who would impersonate @DavecUK and to what purpose? One can only presume that they are some sort of pre-historic pondlife without a purpose other than to try and cause mischief, born from jealousy of the success of the Vesuvius Evo Leva.........or am I wrong?


 Hmmm ????

probably someone threatened by @Paolo_Corteseand @DavecUK

I wonder who might that be ..


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 Why would Sherlock Holmes threaten those two........LOL


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I reckon it was elvis..


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUK The one who works down the chip shop?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @MW11 Why would Sherlock Holmes threaten those two........LOL


 😂😂😂😂

I hired him to look into it 🤷🏻‍♂️ Initial results refer to someone who is following this thread daily. Will keep you posted!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@dfk41 I had forgotten about Kirsty Mac Coll....very sad.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I reckon it was elvis..


 Isn't Elvis spelled backwards Londinium? I think it is.

Jokes aside, the guys poke and for nothing cause they have no chance in this. There are plenty of accessories for 54mm thanks to Dalla Corte.

You can find dosing cups, magnetic dosing rings, OCD/distributors, tampers in 53-55mm with auto-level function, you can even find tamping stations/blocks.

Let the haters bark, they can't do anything else.

When I read stuff like a lever with a pump is not a lever I just roll my eyes 3 times. Get a Faema 1950 lever have it plumbed in cause you can't otherwise, heat the 200kg metal for 2 hours to pull 1x40g shot out.

An all that with a 1000 liters boiler, that you reheat the water over and over and over again, cause why not. Or if you want, a Bosco cause it does pretty much the same.

This machine was the missing key to jump into Levers, or to take them into consideration, show me a 15 min ready 30-35 kg heavy lever machine and i'll give you for free my Vesuvius Leva, not to mention the acrobatics in temp and temp surfing on most levers. You heat up a bathtub a water and a 300kg of metal, so you can pull a shot without the temp dropping a lot, lol. Levers.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S I did see the comment on HB about a machine with a pump not being a lever, but I figured it was not worth commenting. It's like arguing with a flat earther....🤣


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Denis S I did see the comment on HB about a machine with a pump not being a lever, but I figured it was not worth commenting. It's like arguing with a flat earther....🤣


 Well, I replied to him🤷🏻‍♂️ Man is entitled to loves horses but I didn't like the way he talked about donkeys tho! Dude saying "oddball" would be offended now 🤦🏻‍♂️


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Usually espresso roasts are darker. You are doing n for a real treat when your Evo arrives. Are you in the 2nd batch?


 Yeah, I think I am. I paid last week on Thursday. Paolo said there were 2 machines available. I haven't had a confirmation though. Do you think I should ask for a confirmation of my preorder and batch?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd You will probably be unique if you get confirmation matey....or any paperwork in that case......LOL


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I do know it's kinda early now, but considering late July and full august it's vacation, maybe it would not be a bad idea for an approximate estimation/update for the second batch in the following days?

Right now we know that it's delivery in July (we know many things can happen, but let's hope they wont happen). Could we get any update let's say in the first days of July? expected shipping last week of July for eg, or we are waiting for parts to come and we can finish them in 2-4 weeks. Would appreciate it.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @gearosthyd You will probably be unique if you get confirmation matey....or any paperwork in that case......LOL


 Ah, well I guess that's good that I'm not the only one. I would say if Paolo sees this, that some form of written confirmation of order would be nice and reassuring. Something like "thanks for your preorder of X machine, below you'll find a receipt of your order". That's fairly standard right?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd In god we place our trust! Today Paolo told me they were waiting for the displays to ci=ome and that delivery would be within July......I reckon that's the end of July


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

At least they only close for 2 weeks in August, not the entire month


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I refuse to form expectations re-time line. Covid-led parts delays, 3rd wave, vacation, &#8230;. Happy to wait 😊


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I refuse to form expectations re-time line. Covid-led parts delays, 3rd wave, vacation, &#8230;. Happy to wait 😊


 Right, but I'm with @Denis S when he says that late July and August is vacation time and it would be great to have an approximate delivery timeline, since many deliveries may get impacted and some people would need in advance to plan around or find a solution: move vacation days, have someone available to receive the parcel, different delivery address, hold the delivery, etc.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

msmk0 said:


> Right, but I'm with @Denis S when he says that late July and August is vacation time and it would be great to have an approximate delivery timeline, since many deliveries may get impacted and some people would need in advance to plan around or find a solution: move vacation days, have someone available to receive the parcel, different delivery address, hold the delivery, etc.


 You hit the nails on the head.

We too need to plan our vacation. It's just that I am dealing with larger ambiguities around the calendars of two key workers at home. At least one of them won't even know when the employer will release the rota. If the 3rd wave aggravates, then, I stand no chance. So, it is what it is.

Paolo and his team will also have to plan their breaks. I am sure he will try and get ours out as quickly as possible and aim to give us a time line. 😊


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

As someone who was involved in the discussion part of this project from September last year, I would say that the best thing you can do is chill. If you would rather Paolo spent his time sending basically pointless emails out, over and above working to get the machines ready, then that is certainly a valid point of view. ACS are a small company without reams of staff playing computer games all day! I paid my deposit without acknowledgement. I paid my final bill in the same fashion, safe in the knowledge that many folks had gone before me in purchasing direct from ACS with nothing untoward happening. I know you probably do not want to hear me say this, but all that is important is receiving your machine. The estimate of before the end of July is based on them receiving the display units.......so, fingers crossed!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> As someone who was involved in the discussion part of this project from September last year, I would say that the best thing you can do is chill. If you would rather Paolo spent his time sending basically pointless emails out, over and above working to get the machines ready, then that is certainly a valid point of view. ACS are a small company without reams of staff playing computer games all day! I paid my deposit without acknowledgement. I paid my final bill in the same fashion, safe in the knowledge that many folks had gone before me in purchasing direct from ACS with nothing untoward happening. I know you probably do not want to hear me say this, but all that is important is receiving your machine. The estimate of before the end of July is based on them receiving the display units.......so, fingers crossed!


 Completely agree with you mate.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I do know it's kinda early now, but considering late July and full august it's vacation, maybe it would not be a bad idea for an approximate estimation/update for the second batch in the following days?
> 
> Right now we know that it's delivery in July (we know many things can happen, but let's hope they wont happen). Could we get any update let's say in the first days of July? expected shipping last week of July for eg, or we are waiting for parts to come and we can finish them in 2-4 weeks. Would appreciate it.


 Oh dear! 35Y of working in the NHS and I misread "vacation" as "vaccination" and second batch? I thought AZ or Pfizer? I need a bloody holiday!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Oh dear! 35Y of working in the NHS and I misread "vacation" as "vaccination" and second batch? I thought AZ or Pfizer? I need a bloody holiday!


 That is quite an astute irony 🙂


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Had a fright yesterday. Cocked the lever and didn't hear the pump go nor was there any water flowing from the portafilter. I thought that it had developed a serious fault until wife pointed out the error code flashing on the display. Turns out that it thought it was out of water even though the tank was about 1/3rd full. No beeping, just a flashing symbol.

Turns out that the float switch was being held suspended about 1/3 way up the tank, possibly by the plastic cable sheath retaining memory of being curved. Problem solved by cable tying a stainless steel, non magnetic nut to the assembly to add a bit of ballast. Maybe it will settle down with time.









Can I claim to be the first to mod a Leva?


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Sounds like the first mod.

Nice simple solution.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Norvin's nuts 😁


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Norvin said:


> Turns out that the float switch was being held suspended about 1/3 way up the tank


 I had a similar problem with the Elizabeth. The float (runs on the side of the tank) was doing its job correctly, there was water in the tank, the machine was asking for water, but the hose which feeds the pump was too short.

My solution was to simply extend the hose. In my case I extended it by splicing it, but I could have got some more from inside the machine.

Maybe there's some slack on that hose that you could utilise?


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I had a similar problem with the Elizabeth. The float (runs on the side of the tank) was doing its job correctly, there was water in the tank, the machine was asking for water, but the hose which feeds the pump was too short.
> 
> My solution was to simply extend the hose. In my case I extended it by splicing it, but I could have got some more from inside the machine.
> 
> Maybe there's some slack on that hose that you could utilise?


 Tried that, there is a plug and socket connector that restricts the amount of cable that can be pulled through a hole in the frame. It is possible that the float is well, floating, adding to the issue.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Stevebee said:


> Norvin's nuts 😁


 That's just what my wife says!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin Check that there isn't some excess cable/pipe inside that needs to be pulled through Sometimes they secure it with a cable tie inside...to get the length right.

Frankenstien doesn't have low water detection...so I am not totally sure, but on other machines of theirs I have seen, a cable tie grips the tube to set the correct length.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> @Norvin Check that there isn't some excess cable/pipe inside that needs to be pulled through Sometimes they secure it with a cable tie inside...to get the length right.
> 
> Frankenstien doesn't have low water detection...so I am not totally sure, but on other machines of theirs I have seen, a cable tie grips the tube to set the correct length.


 I tried that, even moved the cable tie as much as I could to get more length. It's not that there isn't enough length, the float assembly will nearly touch the bottom of the tank if it stayed straight, but it curves once in the tank.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I tried that, even moved the cable tie as much as I could to get more length. It's not that there isn't enough length, the float assembly will nearly touch the bottom of the tank if it stayed straight, but it curves once in the tank.


 You can also do it the Mafioso way - tie a tiny cement block to the sensor so it will never surface again...


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

While waiting for the machine to come to me, I got something special. A really old (2012-2013 maybe) "breville" 53mm machine. Why you ask? I like to repair and test machine for a short period of time and then get rid of them. This was used with hard water so all the hoses, valves and thermo block were clogged with limestone, but I fixed it, all clean now and pumps like a champ.

While there, i'm amazed this tiny "cheap" machine has almost no plastic on it, and the pf (3 ears similar to Vesuvius evo leva) is heavy and full stainless. But the interesting part is the basket. 53mm basket that fits 15-16 g max. I know some of you searched for a smaller basket, maybe this is the one.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S Did you have any issues sorting parts Denis? I know @ajohn loves tinkering with Sage/Breille stuff so he will probably have some questions!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> While waiting for the machine to come to me, I got something special. A really old (2012-2013 maybe) "breville" 53mm machine. Why you ask? I like to repair and test machine for a short period of time and then get rid of them. This was used with hard water so all the hoses, valves and thermo block were clogged with limestone, but I fixed it, all clean now and pumps like a champ.
> 
> While there, i'm amazed this tiny "cheap" machine has almost no plastic on it, and the pf (3 ears similar to Vesuvius evo leva) is heavy and full stainless. But the interesting part is the basket. 53mm basket that fits 15-16 g max. I know some of you searched for a smaller basket, maybe this is the one.
> 
> View attachment 58372


 How do you like the Bentwood? Where would you rank it among the others you own and know when used with medium and dark roasts?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> While waiting for the machine to come to me, I got something special. A really old (2012-2013 maybe) "breville" 53mm machine. Why you ask? I like to repair and test machine for a short period of time and then get rid of them. This was used with hard water so all the hoses, valves and thermo block were clogged with limestone, but I fixed it, all clean now and pumps like a champ.
> 
> While there, i'm amazed this tiny "cheap" machine has almost no plastic on it, and the pf (3 ears similar to Vesuvius evo leva) is heavy and full stainless. But the interesting part is the basket. 53mm basket that fits 15-16 g max. I know some of you searched for a smaller basket, maybe this is the one.
> 
> View attachment 58372


 Amazing set up @Denis S

How's the Bentwood with drip? I have the Blue Bottle Dripper (which is amazing) and I'm looking for a better grinder for pour overs.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I had and tested many grinders. I owned Niche, Mazzer Kony E, Ceado e37, Ditting old (803?), Ek43s (with various parts and aligned, ofc with ssp HU), mahlkonig guatemala SB the big one with ssp aligned and changed carrier, some smaller diy grinders with 64mm mahlkonig Kenya/proM burrs, g-iota and bentwood.

I also did test at my house several times Lagom with unimodal burrs and Ultra/Levercraft grinder with 98mm HU.

Out of all, the Bentwood wins, brews or espresso, best overall grinder. Best clean brews, easy to use, write micron number on bag you are ready to go. I do daily V60 in the morning for my wife, and then 2 espresso for me in the day, I switch from V60 (400-600 microns) to espresso (80-120 microns) each day, no retention.

What makes the bentwood so good? the dual grind system, it has a big long thick pre-breaker auger, that pre-breaks the beans and feeds them at the same rate to the 63mm no holes custom burrs. Everything inside the grinder is enlarged and oversized, the burrs are double the thickness of normal burrs for stability, the burr chamber is over 3 cm in material, stainless, everything is oversized, sturdy and heavy (25kg~). Monster of a grinder with best overall results.

I can pull 100% Robusta with balanced sweet thick coating mouthfeel, with no bitterness. I could never do that on ssp.

I can also pull light roasts and the Bentwood pushes the floral notes more than ssp.

Have a look on what's inside. Thick! just like Vesuvius Leva


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

We have a new disguised troll. They see they cant post much here cause they get moderated so they try to do damage on other forums/groups. Lovely kind of people.

https://www.home-barista.com/advice/lever-or-profiling-espresso-machine-for-light-roasts-t73229-30.html#p803360

I closed my account on HB, but maybe you guys can report his post so that kind of information doesn't stay like that.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@Denis S At what point do we differentiate a troll from just a person with another view? Should it not be fair that people with alternate views, albeit perhaps not generally accepted, be allowed to voice them?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S I wouldn't worry, they are now trying too hard and the guy appears to have some real issues. They also have an Evo put down thread on their own forum as well...the best thing members here can do is ignore it and their forum.

They don't create anything and just want to pull down anything that doesn't fit into their world....it's petty, unpleasant and small minded, but we need to rise above it...or we are no better than them.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S Nice to see @Dallah showing his true colours. Like all idiots, he fails to see himself as others do.......stick your head in the sand, your arse is still in the air........and the funny thing, is there is absolutely nothing in the content. I note he did not use his username on the other forum he frequents.......wonder why?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

gearosthyd said:


> @Denis S At what point do we differentiate a troll from just a person with another view? Should it not be fair that people with alternate views, albeit perhaps not generally accepted, be allowed to voice them?


 when you add such statements a sane person would supply a bit more information and proofs. Not only 1 word in the wind. I do not know if you are aware and saw the posts on group on facebook, the trash post on HB, instagram and there were some posts here too. Some people are disturbed by the appearance of this machine, and this is great, the more they bark the more people find out about it.

I will post my reviews on IG once I get it, I have some beefy followers.

@DavecUK that is the reason why I asked them to delete my account on HB.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd With the greatest of respect, you seem to be a relatively new member and may not be aware of all that has gone on on this forum. Those days are long past now, but rest assured, there is nothing innocent or alternate as a view point in what he is doing


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I had fun replying to him 😅 I think even if Paolo was paying him to advertise like this he wouldn't do a better job than what he's doing atm! The guy is actually promoting the Leva without knowing it 😂😂. 
HB is an amazing resource and there are experts there that I benefit from reading their posts and asking them questions.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> @Denis S At what point do we differentiate a troll from just a person with another view? Should it not be fair that people with alternate views, albeit perhaps not generally accepted, be allowed to voice them?


 I think you just have to trust our judgment.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@dfk41 Yes, I'm quite fresh! I must mention I'm also on the pre-order list, so I do have a bias that this machine is seen in a good light. I was just concerned that perhaps we might look a little cultish which "might" put off other potential buyers. My original post was merely a question.

@Denis S I haven't seen the posts on FB as I think I arrived after they were posted as I did not know about them that's the reason why I suggested my original point.

I render my original point mute.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> @dfk41 Yes, I'm quite fresh! I must mention I'm also on the pre-order list, so I do have a bias that this machine is seen in a good light. I was just concerned that perhaps we might look a little cultish which "might" put off other potential buyers. My original post was merely a question.
> 
> @Denis S I haven't seen the posts on FB as I think I arrived after they were posted as I did not know about them that's the reason why I suggested my original point.
> 
> I render my original point mute.


 I'm with the guys on this even tho I'm new here but I've noticed the organized attack on IG, their forum and HB. Some people are really threatened by this machine and are trying really hard to diss it whenever they can. I will send you links in PM


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

MW11 said:


> I'm with the guys on this even tho I'm new here but I've noticed the organized attack on IG, their forum and HB. Some people are really threatened by this machine and are trying really hard to diss it whenever they can. I will send you links in PM


 Thanks please do!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Denis S said:


> I will post my reviews on IG once I get it,


 What's IG? (Honest question)


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> What's IG? (Honest question)


 Instagram I think 😂😂


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@DavecUK In your post here

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=814836&embedComment=814836&embedDo=findComment

how were you able to adjust preinfusion on the fly?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> @DavecUK In your post here
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=814836&embedComment=814836&embedDo=findComment
> 
> how were you able to adjust preinfusion on the fly?


 I think you haven't read the last few pages of this thread. @DavecUKposted pictures on how to adjust preinfusion pressure

edit: here you go

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=848748&embedComment=848748&embedDo=findComment


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MW11 said:


> I think you haven't read the last few pages of this thread. @DavecUKposted pictures on how to adjust preinfusion pressure


 Mmm&#8230; not sure it's on the fly though. Removing four screws and the top cover and adjusting the pressurestat then replacing is a bit more time consuming although doable. Not in time before the shot ends though 😁


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Definitely, not an 'on the fly' job. Something you would do infrequently, if at all. Personally, and it's early days, adjusting brew temp is the way to go for lighter roasts. Need more user feedback on this from other Evo owners.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@MW11 Ah, I meant on the fly i.e. while the shot is being pulled.

Eh I guess it's really not necessary. I'll live without it


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

By the way does anyone know someone who can machine stuff? I have a decent tamper, but I'll need a 54mm base for the LSM group.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> By the way does anyone know someone who can machine stuff? I have a decent tamper, but I'll need a 54mm base for the LSM group.


 You should talk to Dana Paul

https://tamperista.com


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Alternatively, you could have a look at Torr tampers. Jens offers various options.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> By the way does anyone know someone who can machine stuff? I have a decent tamper, but I'll need a 54mm base for the LSM group.


 The exact size would be a good question for users who have received their machines.

It comes, I believe (like the izzo leva) with a 53mm

iMS do a 54.4mm (I have this and it fits the IMS baskets I got, not super tight, but fine.

TORR/Jens recommend a 55mm

Which is best is an open question. I'd say 54.4 at minimum, although I haven't bought/ tested any single baskets.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

One thought I had if you wanted, for whatever reason, make frequent adjustments to the preinfusion pressure was similar to what some did on the PV Lusso. The pressurestat was adjusted in a similar way but the case was a bugger to remove so some cut a small screwdriver sized hole in the case for easy adjustment. On the Evo this would be on the top cover just above the pressurestat which wouldn't be visible as the wire top grate is on top. I'll leave mine once set at either 2.5 or 3 bar so won't try. Plus the top cover is stainless on the Evo so might be tricky to get a clean hole.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> One thought I had if you wanted, for whatever reason, make frequent adjustments to the preinfusion pressure was similar to what some did on the PV Lusso. The pressurestat was adjusted in a similar way but the case was a bugger to remove so some cut a small screwdriver sized hole in the case for easy adjustment. On the Evo this would be on the top cover just above the pressurestat which wouldn't be visible as the wire top grate is on top. I'll leave mine once set at either 2.5 or 3 bar so won't try. Plus the top cover is stainless on the Evo so might be tricky to get a clean hole.


 I thought this might have been a factory option, as a great idea. I have something similar on my machine to alter the rotary pump pressure. Maybe they'll do it in the future (or even wire it into the display). Personally I'm the same - opting to get it roughly right, and then leave it.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

MW11 said:


> You should talk to Dana Paul
> 
> https://tamperista.com


 ...and I thought I was already all tricked out - he's got some collection of fancy woods!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> I thought this might have been a factory option. I have something similar on my machine to alter the rotary pump pressure. Maybe they'll do it in the future (or even wire it into the display). Personally I'm thsame - opting to get it roughly right, and then leave it.


 A question that's been in my head came to the fore after reading Daniel's post: which is the lesser of 2 evils - having a sub-optimal PI pressure setting - say just over 1 psi after the initial pulse as far as I can make out from @DavecUK's videos on the Frankenstein - or having the gear pump pulse the puck 2 or more times in search of the perfect PI pressure?

I ask because logically, it seems that less hits to the puck lovingly prepped (with very exotic and expensive tools) may tilt the balance in favor of less hits.

But I really am on the fence with this so please be absolutely vociferous with your arguments for and against.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well I can't help as Frankenstein has a different stat and only go to 2 bar, although all the unnecessary internal pressure regulators get in the way...long story.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm not sure the gear pump is 'hitting' the puck. On the initial pull the puck is saturated (hit) with water from the group. The pump I believe then quickly increases the pressure to the one you set, say 3 bar. How much disturbance to the puck there is I'm not sure as when pressure increases the puck is compressed from then on


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> I'm not sure the gear pump is 'hitting' the puck. On the initial pull the puck is saturated (hit) with water from the group. The pump I believe then quickly increases the pressure to the one you set, say 3 bar. How much disturbance to the puck there is I'm not sure as when pressure increases the puck is compressed from then on


 That seems right to me. Channel from brew boiler opens, and a rush of water into puck, followed by increasing pressure. The pulsing in the early video was fixed, so not there any more.

Puck screen may change how the initial rush hits, which intrigues me although maybe its just cosmetic. Every time I go to buy one though I push into the future because of the postage cost.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

danielpugh said:


> The exact size would be a good question for users who have received their machines.
> 
> It comes, I believe (like the izzo leva) with a 53mm
> 
> ...


 I have just measured the parts. I got two double baskets with the machine, both measure 54.85mm inner diameter. There is a ridge, but the ridge is on the outside of the basket, not inside like some baskets I have had. Depth is 36.7mm if anyone is interested. Single basket measures 54.75mm x 30 deep.

Standard tamper is 53mm, I have a manky old 54mm tamper that came with another machine, that fits better and I use that. One day I may turn down a larger tamper for a more exact fit but can't see the need at the moment, I have two expensive 58mm tampers and I'm not going to mess with those. A 55mm tamper would not fit the standard baskets.

A question for Dave, I see 1.5bar on the dial at the pre infusion stage. If I wanted to adjust the pre infusion pressure, how do I measure it? By just adjusting the pressurestat, putting coffee in the portafilter and seeing what the new pressure is? I don't have a blind basket this size, I can't see why I would otherwise need it, but even if I did would it be a good idea to use it?

Another question for Dave I see that my reputation, number of likes, exceeds my post count, do I get a badge? 😄


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> A question for Dave, I see 1.5bar on the dial at the pre infusion stage. If I wanted to adjust the pre infusion pressure, how do I measure it? By just adjusting the pressurestat, putting coffee in the portafilter and seeing what the new pressure is? I don't have a blind basket this size, I can't see why I would otherwise need it, but even if I did would it be a good idea to use it?
> 
> Another question for Dave I see that my reputation, number of likes, exceeds my post count, do I get a badge? 😄


 A blind filter is a really bad idea...cos it's very dangerous and tricky to remove the portafilter (I tried it so you don't have to). The best way is to simply tweak it and pull a coffee. If you remember how much you turned it, then you will have a pretty good handle on the next adjustment.

I don't deal with badges....that's @Rhys


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I know Paolo is busy and parts haven't reached him yet but the wait is killing me 🥲


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin Actually there might be a way of making it easier and safer...I need to do some tests later. My thinking is...with a cold machine, switch on, but turn off all the heaters...group, boilers..the lot. Then everything is cold.

Use a rubber blanking disk...pull down lever and with an insulated screwdriver, adjust the stat to the pump pressure you want. Probably working up, rather than down (cost you can't release the pressure).

For safety you should switch the machine on/off at the mains before each adjustment...and *not* just adjust it with the pump running like I would, to avoid the massive ballache..Even though the screw in the pressurestat is plastic...you never know, perhaps the manufacturer might change to a metal one (hence the insulated screwdriver).

Switch machine off and with a teatowel around the group, gently unlock it a little until the pressure leaks out. The water is cold, so the teatowel is just so you don't get a Mrs pimple popper soaking. With the machine off and boiler cold, the pump won't run to refill the group and nothing will get force out of the boiler.

Finally control the lever firmly as you move it back to the uncocked position.

*Should work!*


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Robot+helor 106's affogato

dark roast*


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Denis S said:


> View attachment 58372


 The legendary Kenwood Mixer - I bought the same metal one 30 years ago, second hand, and still use it every few weeks.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> The exact size would be a good question for users who have received their machines.
> 
> It comes, I believe (like the izzo leva) with a 53mm
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the info Daniel. So wait isn't the LSM a 54mm group? How does 55mm work? I'm going to buy an IMS basket, and they're specifying 54.4mm. Are you using a stock basket?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Long story with some extra info posted above by @Norvin

I got the IMS (54.4mm) base, handle and baskets.

Jen from Torr suggested 55mm custom is the best size (and they are nice quality tampers).

For now though I'm happy with the IMS tamper - good quality, and it was relatively cheap (~£30) for base and handle. So I decided to wait at least until the machine arrives before getting anything else.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Been away for a week so nice to get back and pull some more shots. Sticking with the group heaters set to 94c and boiler to 104c. Put some Burundi Kibingo washed. Prominent tasting note is lemonade so gives you some idea of the acidity content. First shot was 1.0 on the EKs - PI for 20 secs to first drops. Second was 1.5 on the EKs with PI 15 secs. Side by side comparison revealed the first shot had more muted acidity whilst the second was brighter but no unpleasant sourness - preferred the second. Evo is certainly putting a smile on my face and making me want more espresso. As I am really happy with the results I am getting so far, for the foreseeable, can't see me playing with raising PI pressure.

Looking forward to comparing notes with owners who prefer lighter roasts.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Second was 1.5 on the EKs


 If you were to place this on the lower, middle and higher end of espresso grind-size settings , where would this be? I am aware it may be difficult to interpret like this without being grinder specific, I am trying to get a rough idea for your grind size for lighter roasts.

Have you tried pulling comparative shots for medium roasts yet please ? Thanks


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@The Systemic Kid What PI have you set it to?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

What's the default PI?


----------



## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

Magnum?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> If you were to place this on the lower, middle and higher end of espresso grind-size settings , where would this be? I am aware it may be difficult to interpret like this without being grinder specific, I am trying to get a rough idea for your grind size for lighter roasts.
> 
> Have you tried pulling comparative shots for medium roasts yet please ? Thanks


 EK owners are well used to grinding at or near zero with coffee burrs fitted. EKs dial goes from zero to 16. My EKs is fitted with SSP burrs. My range for lighter roasts could be between 0.5 and 1.0 with the Londinium LR. If I went to 0.5, I would choke the Evo. Settings used are with very light tamping too. It would seem, at this early stage, that the Evo gives a greater wiggle room for espresso settings.

Haven't tried medium roasts but if the above is what is possible with lighter roasts, medium will be easy.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> @The Systemic Kid What PI have you set it to?


 As it came, Dave, reads 1.5 bar and I am going to leave it there. It's early days but I am forming the opinion that, for lighter roasts, temperature is the key variable not PI pressure and being able to control it via the group heaters is quite possibly a game changer. But we will need more feedback from other Evo owners who, like me, enjoy lighter roasts.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MW11 said:


> What's the default PI?


 Mine came set to 1.5 bar.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dutchy101 said:


> Magnum?









308's not bad either​


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Took this photo of my son looking cool in front of this 308 when he was a nipper. He was smitten by it and it fuelled an ongoing love (obsession) of all things Ferrari. He said he would get one by the time he hit 40 last year.









And he did. So I reprised the pic only this one is the Testarossa


----------



## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

That's class! One day I was taking a stroll at lunchtime at work and came across this


----------



## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

Another day on the same street this went past me.

Must have hit 89 mph


----------



## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

Last one and apologies for hacking this thread with my nonsense, but that photo of DeLorian was only taken as I still had my phone in my hand after taking this photo of the worst tragedy I've ever witnessed.

Please do not look at this image unless you are able to handle serious heartbreak.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Mine came set to 1.5 bar.


 Here's my experience of adjusting the pre-infusion. I noticed that when pre-infusing the pump would run until the pressure got to just about 2 bar, but once the pump stopped the pressure immediately fell to about 1.5 bar. In Dave's notes he suggests that the pressure was set by the factory at 2 bar and that initally it should be between 2 to 2.5 bar so I thought that I would have a go and adjust it. Firstly, the red cap on top of the pressurestat was sealed by two pips, suggesting that it was as it left the manufacturers. Prising the cap off breaks the pips and reveals the central small brass adjusting screw. Turning this screw anticlockwise increases the pressure, After a few small adjustments using a small electrical screwdriver I arrived at the point where the pump runs to 2 bar and when it stops the pressure stays at 2 bar. This point was nearly a half turn from the initial setting.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin Useful information....Yes I was told it would be set at 2 or 2.5 bar...I will talk to ACS and let Paolo know. It moght be the manufacturer told them it came preset to that, or their workers are not setting it as they should be. As you can appreciate from my earlier post...it takes a little time to do and needs to be done on a fully assembled machine.

I personally think they could make a little rig with a pump and set them all before they fit them to machines.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@dutchy101 So the DeLorean hit 88 disappeared and on the stuff on it fell to the floor?


----------



## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

It all happened so quickly but that would explain it


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Just a question for those that have the Evo re steam wands. Have gone with the Vesuvius style wand as I familiar with that set but am thinking that the other 2 configurations might give more room for larger jugs. What is the closest these two wands can get to the drip tray? This will give an idea if "hands free" steaming is possible on these, as I know it can on the V style wand. The min measurement will give me this info. Appreciate that no one has the "spider" type arms yet


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Stevebee


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Vesuvius steam arm is fine for smaller amounts of milk - for a couple of flat whites but if you want to steam bigger amounts, the praying mantis or Minima wand might be the way to go.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Thanks for the photos *dfk41* but which style arm is it?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

That's the Vesuvius


----------



## biggoldensun (Jun 13, 2021)

I am trying to get the Passalacqua Harem to work. Somehow this seems to need tweaking. Does any1 have an idea, how to handle that?
The flowery broad taste goes under in some kind of bitterness...


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

With apologies to @Snakehips, I just had to doctor one of his Londinium pictures to make it more appropriate to hang over the Leva.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

biggoldensun said:


> I am trying to get the Passalacqua Harem to work. Somehow this seems to need tweaking. Does any1 have an idea, how to handle that?
> The flowery broad taste goes under in some kind of bitterness...


 Let's know how you are going to tweak it. Very interesting subject you raise there. What's the roast level and what's the temperature you're using? I'm guessing it's the temperatures


----------



## biggoldensun (Jun 13, 2021)

Default: 95 water 98 cartridge Extraction Time 35 minutes, 18g in, about 43g out


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

biggoldensun said:


> Default: 95 water 98 cartridge Extraction Time 35 minutes, 18g in, about 43g out


 You must be very patient🤣


----------



## biggoldensun (Jun 13, 2021)

oops - seconds of course LOL


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

biggoldensun said:


> Default: 95 water 98 cartridge Extraction Time 35 minutes, 18g in, about 43g out


 have you adjusted the default Preinfusion. I think posts late last week were implying that the default from factory is 1.5bar for PI (originally it was expected to be 3 i think). I would increase as per the post by @Norvinon the last page



Norvin said:


> Here's my experience of adjusting the pre-infusion. I noticed that when pre-infusing the pump would run until the pressure got to just about 2 bar, but once the pump stopped the pressure immediately fell to about 1.5 bar. In Dave's notes he suggests that the pressure was set by the factory at 2 bar and that initally it should be between 2 to 2.5 bar so I thought that I would have a go and adjust it. Firstly, the red cap on top of the pressurestat was sealed by two pips, suggesting that it was as it left the manufacturers. Prising the cap off breaks the pips and reveals the central small brass adjusting screw. Turning this screw anticlockwise increases the pressure, After a few small adjustments using a small electrical screwdriver I arrived at the point where the pump runs to 2 bar and when it stops the pressure stays at 2 bar. This point was nearly a half turn from the initial setting.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@biggoldensun try tighter shots 1:1.5 - 1:2 and I would raise the temperature on the brewing boiler + decrease temperature on the heating elements 🤷🏻‍♂️ Let us know what works for you and share a picture of the coffee beans. ( people with their machines might give you some guidance, I'm just guessing here )


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

biggoldensun said:


> Default: 95 water 98 cartridge Extraction Time 35 minutes, 18g in, about 43g out


 If I remember right, @DavecUK recommend around 8-10c offset between boiler and group temperature as the brew boiler temperature is actual, not projected at the group. If I understand right, with your current settings the water reaches the group at around 85-87, if you want to brew at 95 the boiler has to be set at 103-105.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

biggoldensun said:


> Default: 95 water 98 cartridge Extraction Time 35 minutes, 18g in, about 43g out


 I really hope you don't mean.

brew boiler 95

Group heaters 98

That might be bad.

If you want a brew temp of 95, then the group heaters should be set to 95 and the brew boiler to 103, or 104. What ever you need to not drop the group temp as it fills. In fact if you can use less than 8-10C then great.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Picture of the top of the pressurestat showing central adjusting screw. Note arrow around central hole indicating anticlockwise direction of turn to increase pressure.

It doesn't seem to be unduly sensitive, I am about 3/4 of a turn so far to increase pressure by about 1/2 Bar.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin Great photo and as a reminder to people...*never adjust this little screw.*


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> @Norvin Great photo and as a reminder to people...*never adjust this little screw.*
> 
> 
> View attachment 58482


 What does that screw do? 🙂


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> What does that screw do? 🙂


 It adjusts the deadband...but if you don't know that and over adjust it, it's bad news


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> It adjusts the deadband...but if you don't know that and over adjust it, it's bad news


 is this the one, which shuts off when the required bar pressure is reached?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> is this the one, which shuts off when the required bar pressure is reached?


 No its the one that sets the differential between on and off


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> the one that sets the differential between on and off


 Sorry to ask you for clarification. It raised my curiosity to understand this a little better. Is this the general idea of the deadband? 😊

https://tameson.com/pressure-switch-deadband.html


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

If ya smell&#8230;. What @Paolo_Corteseis cooking 🤨

🤞🙏🏻


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Sorry to ask you for clarification. It raised my curiosity to understand this a little better. Is this the general idea of the deadband? 😊
> 
> https://tameson.com/pressure-switch-deadband.html


 Yes, and it's something you don't need to touch.

@MW11 Looks like 12 people are going to be very happy.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Looks like 12 people are going to be very happy.


 That looks smaller in size as @MW11 stated. The 2nd batch isn't ready, or is it ? Haven't received anything by email. 😊


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Yes, and it's something you don't need to touch.
> 
> @MW11 Looks like 12 people are going to be very happy.


 I don't think I'm one of the chosen 12. 
I asked for pimping the Leva as much as possible 😂


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It could be 6 machines of course...but my bet would be 12


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

They can't be ready. To early, plus I have no e-mail for the rest of the payment and i'm 1st on the list. 😬And the closest to Italy.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

We are excited; but, one step at a time&#8230;. 😊


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> If ya smell&#8230;. What @Paolo_Corteseis cooking 🤨
> 
> 🤞🙏🏻
> 
> View attachment 58493


 Unfortunately this happened before the last batch as well. It's all on a single pallet , so presumably going to a single destination. On a positive note (guessing) this clears the decks for the next job which will hopefully be us...


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

We are clearly excited and this crate-seeing does not help 😂

We will patiently wait drinking cold brew on the beach for the DHL call...


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

That's the spirit.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

That's exactly the SAME photo that was posted at the beginning of May so no, it's not the second batch as no doubt @MW11 is fully aware. &#8230;..or is it 🙀


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I know Paolo is a nice chap, but sending the machines out before collecting the balance of the payment really is too generous!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> That's exactly the SAME photo that was posted at the beginning of May so no, it's not the second batch as no doubt @MW11 is fully aware. &#8230;..or is it 🙀


 Do you know what this means.

I know nothing...🤣


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Do you know what this means.
> 
> I know nothing...🤣


 Now I've got Manuel from Fawlty Towers in my head

"I know nothin', I'm from Barcelona"


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I know nothing...????












????


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

You all got too excited. Did not a few people speak with Paolo a few days ago ? 3-5 and he was still waiting for parts to come in? (touch screens).

There is a german dealer on another forum and when asked when the machines come (he is selling them in De at his online shop) he responded they will come in about 2 weeks. So I have 0 expectations those are the machines are that they are even close to be finished.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The wood on the pallets have distinctive marks (bottom left / top right) which shows the photos are identical. Someone just being mischievous ☝


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

My machine arrived Down Under this morning. There were no legs on the bottom of the pallet but my Evo arrived unscathed. :classic_biggrin:








It was really enjoyable setting it up.

I have made only 4 shots with it so far but already am impressed with its obvious quality and shot-making ability.

Kudos to Paolo Cortese and Dave Corbey (and anyone else involved) for the development and execution of this machine!


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Sibling rivalry!


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

MW11 said:


> If ya smell&#8230;. What @Paolo_Corteseis cooking 🤨
> 
> 🤞🙏🏻
> 
> View attachment 58493


 this pallet are Vesuvius standard not Lever. i'm apologie for some that waiting, we are fighting with the low electronic components worldwide. In one of the last phone call with one of our supplier they told me that one of big manufacturer company asked to their dealer to collect all the broken display and send back to repair and put on new machines. In any case we are in progress to ship all the orders before the summer holiday.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@Paolo5 Can't wait to see some comparisons of the Vesuvius and the Evo!


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

For anyone who is wondering how it looks with the minima wand.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Personally, I love the Minima steam wand.

@Paolo5Looking really good there. What is it these couriers do, to knock the feet off the crate? Glad the early impressions are good.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Personally, I love the Minima steam wand.
> 
> @Paolo5Looking really good there. What is it these couriers do, to knock the feet off the crate? Glad the early impressions are good.


 The only thing that I can complain about it(or actually the side that I chose to place it) is that it`s kind of in the way of the touchscreen.

Particularly bad if you just finished steaming and the wand is hot  .

How complicated would it be to install a regular vesuvius wand? would it be just a matter of untightening the bolts turning the assembly and installing the new one?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

hysaf said:


> The only thing that I can complain about it(or actually the side that I chose to place it) is that it`s kind of in the way of the touchscreen.
> 
> Particularly bad if you just finished steaming and the wand is hot  .
> 
> How complicated would it be to install a regular vesuvius wand? would it be just a matter of untightening the bolts turning the assembly and installing the new one?


 If you don't mind, could you advise the clearance from the edge of the bolt to the display please ? I have asked for the minima arms with the steam on the same side as yours. Thx mate.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yesterday, I increased the brew boiler temp to 101 degrees. I am drinking Java Jampit at the moment and the difference in taste was noticeable. Tomorrow I am going to drop it 1 degree and if that does not taste better, increases it by one degree from the starting point. Even though I am not a big tweeter, it is great to be able to play like this and see your results within a couple off minutes


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

hysaf said:


> The only thing that I can complain about it(or actually the side that I chose to place it) is that it`s kind of in the way of the touchscreen.
> 
> Particularly bad if you just finished steaming and the wand is hot  .
> 
> How complicated would it be to install a regular vesuvius wand? would it be just a matter of untightening the bolts turning the assembly and installing the new one?


 I asked Paolo, and he confirmed this yes.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm eying out that unit @hysaf... Do you remember/know where you bought it from? Is that a trolley like or fixed?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hysaf said:


> The only thing that I can complain about it(or actually the side that I chose to place it) is that it`s kind of in the way of the touchscreen.


 Yes, I probably wouldn't have chosen that side...😉


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Well, I jumped on the Key campaign (after losing hope for MC4) and can't pay for Leva till next month so the delay works for me now. 😂

I chose the LM style wands and I hope they are functional (they are the best looking wands of them all🤷🏻‍♂️). For the time being I highly recommend the Hyper chiller (to my fellow members who are waiting for their Levas) for iced coffee instead of the Japanese style splash hot coffee brewed over ice. It's really good and I'm enjoying it every day. The downside is you have to clean/refill it after each use then freeze it for tomorrow's brew.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

The "natives" are getting restless,,,,


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

@hysaf, thanks for posting pictures of the Minima arm. I've been trying to decide for my second batch machine. It does look good......

I note your comments about the screen - fortunately from that perspective, my steam arm will be on the left.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

When my Evo is warming up from cold, there is a drop of water coming from the bottom of the group every 30 seconds or so. This stops when the group is warm.

Has anyone come up against this phenomenon before?

My automatic thought was that the piston seals needed more silicone lube. Could this be right?


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I just started the Evo for lunchtime coffees and with leaving the portafilter out, I checked the dripping.

The dripping is much more frequent than I first thought up to around 50C of group temperature. It is about one drip every 5 seconds.

After around 50C of group temperature, the drips came less frequently....around 10 seconds between them.

By the time that the group temperature had hit the set temp, the drops had stopped.

There was about 20ml measured.

Any ideas please?


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

I would be suspicious that in part it is the water expanding in the group and plumbing as it heats up and forcing its way past the group seals. Although 20ml seems too much for that explanation. Maybe also the seals haven't quite bedded into the group and are leaking a little until they get warmer and softer.

I expect it will probably go away once the group gets a bit more use and the seals settle in.


----------



## audiocore (Jul 2, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> I just started the Evo for lunchtime coffees and with leaving the portafilter out, I checked the dripping.
> 
> The dripping is much more frequent than I first thought up to around 50C of group temperature. It is about one drip every 5 seconds.
> 
> ...


 My machine does that to. But til now I didn't worry, as the dripping stops after warmup.

My diy-explanation was thermal expansion of the water in the brew boiler. But now, as I rethink it, this may be rather self-appeasemant than the correct explanation.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I have used plenty of lever machines over many years and have never come across this issue.

I am somewhat relieved that this phenomenon isn't confined to just my machine. I am hoping that Elephantoplasty is correct...and the seals bed-in to the group walls and the leak stops.

I hope that other Evo users will chime in and share their experience/non-experience with this situation.

also...

I want to replace the circlip at the bottom of the group with a stainless item.

I have an IMS shower screen that I would like to install...and check out the lubrication of the piston while I am there.

Is there any trick to removing the OE shower screen? It just sits up there taunting me!


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I forgot to mention that I have already removed the circlip.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

It's a common thing with the La Pavonis when the seals are not making a proper seal, due to crud or not fitted correctly. I'm not saying it's the case here, it might be, just sharing my experience with the La Pav.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I read earlier that due to teflon seals no grease / lube has been applied. Bit different to what I had to do on the L1 which used liberal grease


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have not sat and watched my machine warm up as it is on a timer, but after breakfast I will turn her off and let her cool down and see


----------



## audiocore (Jul 2, 2021)

I belief teflon refers only to the centring of the piston, not the seal.

I suppose the seal is some kind of rubber.

A silicone seal would be an option, but I can't find a supplier.

Cafelat makes silicone seals for the CMA-group (which uses 3 Seals: 1 up, 2 down).

These seals are great, because they need grease/silicone only for the installation, are neutral in taste and more durable, don't get brittle.

I asked Paul from Cafelat if he would consider producing silicone seals for the LSM group. The answer was a tentative nay: To little interest, although he has a careesponding CAD-File. But tooling seems to be too expensive.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm eying out that unit @hysaf... Do you remember/know where you bought it from? Is that a trolley like or fixed?


 Here you go my mate, Ikea 45£ new.

BEKVÄM birch, Kitchen trolley - IKEA



DavecUK said:


> Yes, I probably wouldn't have chosen that side...😉


 I can`t do steam on the left, it bad juju for me 



Paolo5 said:


> When my Evo is warming up from cold, there is a drop of water coming from the bottom of the group every 30 seconds or so. This stops when the group is warm.
> 
> Has anyone come up against this phenomenon before?
> 
> My automatic thought was that the piston seals needed more silicone lube. Could this be right?


 Mine does the same when it warms up, dripps a bit, but after a flush of hot water that stops.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

hysaf said:


> Here you go my mate, Ikea 45£ new.
> 
> BEKVÄM birch, Kitchen trolley - IKEA


 Thank you for this.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Paolo5 said:


> I have used plenty of lever machines over many years and have never come across this issue.
> 
> I am somewhat relieved that this phenomenon isn't confined to just my machine. I am hoping that Elephantoplasty is correct...and the seals bed-in to the group walls and the leak stops.
> 
> ...


 Just trying to work this out I'm my head, and probably getting confused. My understanding would be that when lever is in starting position, the piston is lowered and connection to brew boiler is (I thought) closed. Otherwise water would be pressurised into above the piston head (maybe this is normal and I'm confused?). So when we pull the lever it raises the piston and this allows water to enter from brew boiler by the valve behind group (preinfusion), and when we release lever it returns to starting point.

My thinking being that rather than the seal in the group, is it perhaps related to a/the valve setting between brew boiler and group perhaps? Interested to know the answer from wanting to understand the mechanism as well as fix/address.

Notably my izzo duetto e61 dribbles water (only) at warmup via the opv, even when it has been freshly replaced.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

danielpugh said:


> Notably my izzo duetto e61 dribbles water (only) at warmup via the opv


 OPV or vacuum breaker?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> OPV or vacuum breaker?


 Opv (into drip tray) - not loads though so more of a curiosity


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> Notably my izzo duetto e61 dribbles water (only) at warmup via the opv, even when it has been freshly replaced.


 Off topic, but completely normal behaviour for the Duetto..


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi DavecUK,

I checked the little lever arm at the back of the group and there is some freeplay there....so it is not pushing down on the pin.

I counted 3 of us who have noted this so maybe it's something that beds in and not noticed after a time. (I have pulled only about 12 shots so far.)

While here, Dave...after removing the group circlip, how do I remove the shower disc? I thought that it would drop out after the circlip was removed...but no. I have even pulled a shot with no circlip thinking that that might help to release the disc..but no (again). Do you have any suggestions? I wanted to install the IMS shower that I have for my Evo.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Paolo5 Shower screen is a very tight fit, and tends to crud in (technical term). Often destroyed by removal unless tapped out by a 45mm sized object from behind.

The inner circlips (snap rings) in the group are stainless steel and brittle. Be careful how you remove them. The spares are not a corrosion resistant, but much less brittle. I'm looking at Hadfield Steel replacements and Paolo is looking at TEA treated.

The piston seal is already a long life seal... alternatives are likely to be inferior.

I have been using my lever for almost 6 months and it's still as smooth as silk...no need for lubing yet. 3 seals can tend to get "grabby" quite fast.

I used this post to address the other questions floating around.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

About the problem of dripping during the warm up you have to note that our group have an open water camera around the piston and the only thing should be that when the temp go up the water comes out, if this happen when the machine is hot probably another problem. about the cam in the back it's important that there is always a small gap and not stuck on the back of the base of the lever. Every machine is regulate with the right space but sometimes could happen that the screw loose the position and the cam go too far or too close.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Paolo5Thanks for the feed back man! Can't wait to hear your thoughts and comparisons 🔥


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@audiocore @Paolo5 My earlier post was wrong in a few areas, because I was referencing a machine in a bar I worked on in Naples, where I unblocked the water inlets (long story), with a very *very old group.*

The water entering thee group is controlled by a valve, not by the group seal. Other systems use more than one seal to trap the inlet port between two seals and both the 1 and 2 seal have to prevent the water flowing up and down.

The Evo groups seal is always *above *the inlet ports when the lever is up and by its very nature can't hold water. When you pull the lever down, the seal rises further but is *always above the* water inlet port and the valve is pushed open by the little lever system at the back of the group. Then water enters the group. So it's nothing to do with the group seal.

Initially, check the little lever arm at the back of the group is adjusted correctly and not pushing down on the pin...you will see how it adjusts with a central bolt and locknut. There should be some space when the lever is up.

Now it might be stopping because the



valve components are warming up (which sounds like a little water is normal behaviour)


the little lever that opens the valve is expanding and not adjusted correctly


the expansion valve is set too high (factory know to set it low though, after hundreds of Vostoks) and water has finished expanding


*Possible causes and solutions*



normal (just water expansion), do nothing


valve opener adjustment (check there is a little free play)


*If this happens when the group is hot*



Adjust valve opener to ensure there is free play


contamination or something on valve seat, remove valve (from bottom of group), check nothing embedded in seals, clean, lube and replace...but only if this is still happening once the group has warmed up.


expansion valve set too high, which is *unlikely* (adjustment process would be advised by factory). In fact the expansion valve is almost fully open to achieve 6 bar...so it would be almost impossible to make that mistake.


My apologies for the slight misinformation earlier, I have worked on the very old groups and the Alpha Test bed also has a 7 year old group. Your groups are modern and different, even the water inlet valve is different to mine.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

To find out if it's normal, presumably we can compare with experience with owner of an izzo leva which uses the same group (although it doesn't have the heater cartridges). @TomR has one - Tom do you get some water leaking through the group as it gets up to temperature?


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

danielpugh said:


> To find out if it's normal, presumably we can compare with experience with owner of an izzo leva which uses the same group (although it doesn't have the heater cartridges). @TomR has one - Tom do you get some water leaking through the group as it gets up to temperature?


 the izzo group doesn't have a water chamber


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> the izzo group doesn't have a water chamber


 That's a shame. 20ml doesn't sound like a lot. Would be good to have a benchmark as to whether can be eliminated or not. If not then can forget and vice-versa.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

what Paolo is saying, which I didn't want to get into (because it helps any competition)...the group used in the Evo is a little bit special inside, it supports the group heaters but has a semi saturated design. When the group heats the water will increase in volume within the internal chambers and a small amount of water will flow out of the water injection hole.

It can't be eliminated and you wouldn't want to as this is what makes the group more effective at controlling temperature and spreading heat around the group. It's not a problem unless it continues when the group has heated up.

P.S. The expanding water also needs somewhere to go...or it can damage the inlet valve.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> It's not a problem unless it continues when the group has heated up


 Thanks Dave for simplifying it for non-technical people like me. 😊


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Cool - I'm happy with an "it's normal, don't worry about it"


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> the izzo group doesn't have a water chamber


 And it doesn't leak

although im usually asleep when its warming up


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

TomR said:


> And it doesn't leak


 and the boiler doesn't fill either 🤣


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> and the boiler doesn't fill either ????


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

*Sad face* 😰

*thumbs up*😂😂

still, it's in my house, not in Italy still&#8230;

riposte!

also: tried the ims screen

Does not seem to change extraction but stays cleaner maybe

happy pulling everyone


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

My concern was that for all 4 legs to have been 'removed' with the tender care of DHS, that my machine may have sustained some internal damage. I am not worried about the 20ml leaking...especially if it is normal behaviour for this group.

The shots that I am getting from my Evo are superb! I must have made nealy 20 shots so far...and the nearest machines that I can name that can deliver the depth of flavours and crema from the beans that I roast on my Dalian are the Vesuvius and the vintage Brugnetti Aurora....high praise indeed! And I haven't experimented with declining temperature shots or manoeuvred the lever during a shot...just let the machine do its thing.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@Paolo5 what temperatures are you using?


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I have the group heaters set at 96.5C (to compensate for the Bplus screen that I am using) and the water temperature set to 96C. I haven't felt the desire to change anything yet...but isn't it great knowing that I can.... :classic_biggrin:


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> what Paolo is saying, which I didn't want to get into (because it helps any competition)...the group used in the Evo is a little bit special inside, it supports the group heaters but has a semi saturated design. When the group heats the water will increase in volume within the internal chambers and a small amount of water will flow out of the water injection hole.
> 
> It can't be eliminated and you wouldn't want to as this is what makes the group more effective at controlling temperature and spreading heat around the group. It's not a problem unless it continues when the group has heated up.
> 
> P.S. The expanding water also needs somewhere to go...or it can damage the inlet valve.


 Thanks, Dave.

Just so that I have it clearly in my head...you saying that this expansion and 20ml of initial dripping is part of the modified group's design and ALL Evo's do this.

Is that correct?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Paolo5 said:


> I have the group heaters set at 96.5C (to compensate for the Bplus screen that I am using) and the water temperature set to 96C. I haven't felt the desire to change anything yet...but isn't it great knowing that I can.... :classic_biggrin:


 There should be 8-10c between the brew boiler setting and the group heaters. This is because the water loses about that much on it's travel to the group. On your settings the water temp when it hits the group will be way below what you want. Not sure the elements in the group can get the temp back up for the shot but the system won't be in balance how it is supposed to work.

As an aside, BPlus recommends a 2/3c higher brew temp but only for the 1st shot as after that the temp effect is negligible as it has warmed up


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks Steve...I have read that.

I just made a shot on the settings that I have had since I set the machine up and it was great! No sourness that one would exprect from too-low an extraction temperature.

I'm duly caffeinated now but will set the brew boiler temp. to 105C and try it tomorrow.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> I have the group heaters set at 96.5C (to compensate for the Bplus screen that I am using) and the water temperature set to 96C. I haven't felt the desire to change anything yet...but isn't it great knowing that I can.... :classic_biggrin:


 I have the Bplus dispersion screen too 😂 ok you are the official Evo whisperer! Tell us everything you do and share recipes (Pi time&#8230;etc)


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The temperature thing is so 1990. Can you believe there are people who think a steady temp line w/o dropping more of 0.5C is good for making espresso? saturated group temp stability.

Temperature is related to the compounds you want to extract. Lately, the decent club is playing with ultra low temps on ultra light roasts and the results are insane good.

Shot pulled at 89 C injected preinfusion temp with a drop to 84C final brewing temp (on purpose). Light roasted ethiopia natural on Loring, rested and frozen. Taste is mango and tropical fruit jogurt ice cream, bergamot.

Temperature is a nice experimentation thing, and i'm glad I can tweak it on Leva, I just hope there is no software limitation to go under 90-88C like some other machines have it (DC I believe).

Speaking of extraction, the above shot was 18g in/46.2g out with over 25% EY (at low temp).


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> There should be 8-10c between the brew boiler setting and the group heaters


 @Steevdee and @DavecUK I have a question.

Although this is a recommended setting, wouldn't the group heater be able to quickly heat and maintain the temperature at the set level ? I remember Dave saying it takes only a few seconds. But, here the temperature loss would be substantial.

The water would have already hit the puck 8-10C lower causing sourness. The group heater would have already corrected the temperature loss, minimising the sourness before a few drops fall on the cup. When the shot is pulled, the temperature loss may not be an issue anymore. @Paolo5 did not taste any sourness. Thx


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee I guess it's up to each owners...I'd personally not set the group heaters to 96.5 and I would always want to compensate for the delta between the water leaving the brew boiler and entering the group. So I would probably aim for something more like 95 group heater, if I wanted it really really hot...and 102 or 103 brew boiler.

Of course I can't help people with temps any more because my test bed used an ex commercial scrap group and only one of the heaters fitted well...(6 years ago the heaters didn't have a good fit in the groups)...different fitment and the heater that fitted badly on my very old group burnt out after a few days.

I have been waiting for an up-to-date new group bottom half, with the modern heater fitment and also because my water valve also leaks badly. However ACS has never sent one...it would also be a major ballache for me to fit in the Alpha because of the way it is inside.

The Alpha was simply a proof of concept and is a much poorer machine in every respect than the production machines....effectively it's worth nothing..


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK Many thanks to you, Paolo and his team for designing and producing the awesomely beautiful machine. We will always look up to you for expert guidance, advise, fix recommendations and many more. I am sure the ACS will send what is required to keep the test bed up to date. It is also in their interests as it will also serve them well in the future. I think, you may most probably require a production grade test machine to plan any significant enhancements. IMHO, this is what the ACS could / should do, without which it will be difficult to figure out what works or otherwise, tweaks, and so on. 😊

Edit: Sorry, I left out the manual, which isn't an easy task and helps us massively. Thx @SL01 for pointing this out.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Thoughts? I've set up a flat 6 bar profile on my Vesuvius. So far? So mediocre!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

> 2 hours ago, GrahamSPhillips said:


 Amazing how welling people are to toy with espresso! However, I buy coffee beans which don't come in cheap that's why I'm not going to experiment like that. That's the main reason I passed on the decent, I think I can't handle that much control and to always tweak something wether it's flow, pressure or temperature. At least on the Leva I can only change temperature which is plenty for me 😂. I recall doing espresso on Profitec Pro 800 pi 10s then 30-40s shot time. Total was 40-50+ seconds which was amazing tbh! I hope I can do the same on the Leva. Will find out when it arrives.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I'm afraid this machine isn't for you @MW11 😁

The EVO Leva allows to play with much more than temperatures (with 3 adjustments rather than the usual 1 or 2, and in 1/2 degree increments rather than 'full' degrees)... there is pre-infusion pressure and duration, pressure profiling, max brew pressure and more (how much coffee in each basket, at which pressure/volume/weight to stop...)... combine this with the ability to try different springs, baskets, etc. and the permutations become near infinite...

This being said, I've been entertained by low end superautos for many years (getting decent espresso out of them is far from straightforward, at least it wasn't for me 😵)


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

turbo shots are only for light-medium roasts. you dont want a fast flowing shot out of a more roasty bean. you get a nice chimney taste out of it, or water that was used to clean an ashtray.

The darker the roast the slower the flow to make a delicious shot. Turbo shots are an extreme thing to be able to pull something with mediocre grinders out of light roasted coffee. It was mainly used and discovered for coffee shops using specialty coffee beans, that would serve unbalanced sour or bitter/astringent shots because they went the classic way of pulling 1-2 ratio in 25-30 sec.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Eiffel said:


> I'm afraid this machine isn't for you @MW11 😁
> 
> The EVO Leva allows to play with much more than temperatures (with 3 adjustments rather than the usual 1 or 2, and in 1/2 degree increments rather than 'full' degrees)... there is pre-infusion pressure and duration, pressure profiling, max brew pressure and more (how much coffee in each basket, at which pressure/volume/weight to stop...)... combine this with the ability to try different springs, baskets, etc. and the permutations become near infinite...


 Evo is as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. You don't need to spend a lot of time and effort zoning in on the sweet spot. It's very forgiving. Sure it can be tweaked and I look forward to benefiting from others' efforts in this respect.

That said, the flat profile set up I've been using with heaters set to 94c and boiler to 102c is producing very moreish shots with lighter roasts. Another thing I've noted is that the mouthfeel is appreciably more pronounced even at 1:2.5 than my previous machine - something I have been pleasantly surprised about.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

MW11 said:


> .... I buy coffee beans which don't come in cheap that's why I'm not going to experiment like that....


 @MW11How did you find out what I told my wife, word-for-word??


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> I'm afraid this machine isn't for you @MW11 😁
> 
> The EVO Leva allows to play with much more than temperatures (with 3 adjustments rather than the usual 1 or 2, and in 1/2 degree increments rather than 'full' degrees)... there is pre-infusion pressure and duration, pressure profiling, max brew pressure and more (how much coffee in each basket, at which pressure/volume/weight to stop...)... combine this with the ability to try different springs, baskets, etc. and the permutations become near infinite...
> 
> This being said, I've been entertained by low end superautos for many years (getting decent espresso out of them is far from straightforward, at least it wasn't for me 😵)


 Damn you @Eiffel😡😤🥲


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I have pulled maybe 25 shots with my Evo now.

I changed the temperature on the group and the shot boiler a few times today. It is great to be able to make a change on the PIDs that translates to actual temperature changes as quickly as the Evo allows.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> I have pulled maybe 25 shots with my Evo now.
> 
> I changed the temperature on the group and the shot boiler a few times today. It is great to be able to make a change on the PIDs that translates to actual temperature changes as quickly as the Evo allows.


 And??? I was waiting for the results of those 25 shots! With different temperatures 🤦🏻‍♂️
Did @Eiffeltell you to do this? (Tell them how many shots you made but say nothing about the taste 😈). 
Details puhleeeease 🤲🏻


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Evo produces wonderfully micro-foamed milk😀


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Evo produces wonderfully micro-foamed milk😀
> 
> View attachment 58554


 Someone is having too much fun with the Evo Leva😎

Looks delicious 🤤 I can't do Latte art but I don't drink much milk anyways


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> Someone is having too much fun with the Evo Leva😎
> 
> Looks delicious 🤤 I can't do Latte art but I don't drink much milk anyways


 I believe Mrs TSK enjoys a milk drink, especially from the EVO....allows him to keep his hand in. I rarely make milk drinks and so I'm rubbish at Latte Art.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I believe Mrs TSK enjoys a milk drink, especially from the EVO....allows him to keep his hand in. I rarely make milk drinks and so I'm rubbish at Latte Art.


 Mrs Systemic has zero interest in coffee geekery. That said, have noticed an increase in 'mmm, this is nice' comment since the Evo arrived. Make of that what you will.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I'm waiting here in silence for the arrival 😆 Maybe the end of the month comes faster.

Also have and will get more beans that will be rested for min 3-4 weeks and then frozen.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Have you tried vacuum packing Denis?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I rest my beans in roasters bags, after they are min 1 month, I squeeze all air out and then tape the valve, throw them into the freezer. I take out 1 max 2 doses each day from there and close the zip bag. I dont keep the bag outside.

Also have some jars/bottles (plastic and glass) with lids that are from roasters like Levercraft or Friedhats, and I put beans in there and let them be in the freezer. My coffee is really light and It needs min 15-20 days rest to be able to get nice taste out of it. Right now i'm using 2 beans:

Tim Wendelboe Nacimiento Pacas washed roaster on 31 May (not frozen)

Leuchtfeuer Funkelfeuer Ethiopia Natural roasted on ~15 May (frozen).

My next beans are Beansmith (5 bags) roasted on ~15 June (these are to the rest still for 1 more week).

All bags are filter roasts, roasted on Loring roasters most of the time (all above roast on Loring).


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Bean (sic) using a vacuum sealer for a few months and very pleased with the results. Don't bother freezing anymore.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Bean (sic) using a vacuum sealer for a few months and very pleased with the results. Don't bother freezing anymore.


 Where do you store the vac sealed beans?

Like Denis, I also freeze; but 2 x a KG each. But, typically draw 0.25 kg, reseal and throw them in the freezer. I used to split them into 8 x 0.25 KG before. I don't do it any more. No more plastics!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Where do you store the vac sealed beans? How many bags of 0.25 kg do you freeze please ? Are they reusable plastics ?
> 
> Like Denis, I also freeze; but 2 x a KG each. But, typically draw 0.25 kg, reseal and throw them in the freezer. I used to split them into 8 x 0.25 KG before. I don't do it any more. No more plastics!


 I vac into 250grm bags - last lot was 2.5kg. Don't bother with freezing. Guess it would be possible to re-use by using a slightly larger size and resealing but haven't tried that. Vacuuming keeps the beans surprisingly fresh.

Apologies for going off topic.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Great info. Keep it coming


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

*Day 4**-*

I have tried raising the boiler temperature (in stages)...and then reducing the boiler temperature (in stages) and the same with the group temperature.

I have come back to 95C group and 99C boiler....and the results are very nice indeed!

I am running 3 of my Dalian roasts concurrently.

*A Guatemalan

*Costa Rican San Jorge and

*Peru Ceja de Selva

They were all roasted to a medium level 5 days ago and have been stored in an Airscape cannister in the fridge.

I am grinding on a Helor Stance Motor to the level of fineness that starts the first drip from the naked portafilter between 7 and 10 seconds. I am leaving the springs to do their magic and not assisting or retarding the lever at all (yet). I am finishing the shot just as blonding starts.

I am using an IMS basket and 20gm of coffee...as well as a top screen (swapping amongst BPlus, a trimmed Dutch stainless disc and a trimmed Aeropress stainless filter) which keeps coffee powder from contaminating and clogging the Evo shower screen and also helps to keep the coffee puck intact beautifully.

I have a leveller and a Joe Frex tamper that are size-matched to the IMS basket....*and it is all coming together for me nicely indeed.*

I won't comment on tasting nuances like caramels, mushrooms or grasshoppers but will say that *the resulting pours are already smooth, robust, crema-rich and very satisfying. *

Call it a honeymoon period perhaps....but I would be very happy to merely maintain these extractions. (Although I have a hunch that I have just scratched the tip of the espresso iceberg with this machine.)


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> They were all roasted to a medium level 5 days ago


 Great stuff Paolo from oz! Interesting you aren't resting the beans for 2-3 weeks, which I believe is the recommended time before we can open the bag.

Please keep the stories coming. Thx


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Maybe it's just me (and I KNOW that plenty of people will disagree with me) but I think that roasted beans that haven't been stored thoughtfully are already beyond their best after 10 days. :classic_ohmy:


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Paolo5 said:


> Maybe it's just me (and I KNOW that plenty of people will disagree with me) but I think that roasted beans that haven't been stored thoughtfully are already beyond their best after 10 days. :classic_ohmy:


 with cheap green beans, or improper roast yes, you are right.

Some darker roasts are good to go after 5 days, but in the end you drink it how you like it.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

:classic_laugh:

I *knew* that I'd get a reaction!

Let's just say 'each to his/her own!'


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@The Systemic KidNo Cappuccino after lunch 😡

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CQ2EkLvhnJN/?utm_medium=copy_link


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MW11 said:


> @The Systemic KidNo Cappuccino after lunch 😡
> 
> https://www.instagram.com/reel/CQ2EkLvhnJN/?utm_medium=copy_link


 Do flat whites count? For the record, Mrs Systemic always consumes hers before noon👍😀


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Well done you two. You both have passed the 1st test in the Italian Citizenship test. 🙂

Second rule:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.tiktok.com/@carloandsarah/video/6979690576413265158?is_copy_url=1%26is_from_webapp=v1


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/index.php?app=core&module=system&controller=embed&url=https://www.tiktok.com/@carloandsarah/video/6979690576413265158?is_copy_url=1%26is_from_webapp=v1


 I fear their relationship won't stand the test of time or spaghetti.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> I fear their relationship won't stand the test of time or spaghetti.


 Along the same vein, it should also be illegal to call the Roc**t Epica "a lever machine"


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Spent the morning making this piston removal tool as discussed in previous posts.















I anticipated that the piston would be really tight and would need some serious torque to get it loose. Turns out that it freed very easily, no locking compound used, much simpler tools would have done the job, so this tool is a bit of overkill. Still, it will be handy for adjusting seal compression in-situ and when turned round it can be used to push the screen out from the top.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin I think it's because the group is new, it's easy to get off. I'd put a wrap of PTFE tape and possibly some Molykote to ensure it always comes off easy


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> *Day 4**-*
> 
> I have tried raising the boiler temperature (in stages)...and then reducing the boiler temperature (in stages) and the same with the group temperature.
> 
> ...


 Out of interest, what kind of shots are you pulling?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I anticipated that the piston would be really tight and would need some serious torque to get it loose. Turns out that it freed very easily, no locking compound used, much simpler tools would have done the job, so this tool is a bit of overkill. Still, it will be handy for adjusting seal compression in-situ and when turned round it can be used to push the screen out from the top


 Thank you for posting this. It is good to hear it came off easily.

I guess you used a plier wrench to remove the group from the top. Did you have to use jaws protect sleeves to avoid damaging the 4 nuts

Considering, it was easier to remove the piston, do you think a boa constrictor / a strap wrench would be enough please ?

Of course, one could make something quickly out of a PVC pipe or source one from you 😁

We may not know how difficult it would be if one doesn't have to remove it, say for a year or more. Thx


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Thank you posting this. It is good to hear it came off easily.
> 
> I guess you used a plier wrench to remove the group from the top. Did you have to use jaws protect sleeves to avoid damaging the 4 nuts
> 
> ...


 No need for pliers, just undo the four acorn nuts with a 10 mm ring spanner, they're not tight, and the top of the group lifts off. A strap wrench,"C" spanner or adapted PVC should do it, no need for vices, stilsons etc.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Until you have said Lever don't miss read what you need or don't need mine are locked right so a vice or stilsons needed


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I'm not familiar with this group. Let me get this right:

you can remove the entire group/piston from above (ofc) and then you can unscrew the piston to easy change the bottom seal? or why you would want to remove the piston?

In my head, you want to remove the piston if you want to remove the entire thing to get one spring replaced, or remove 1 spring, am I right?

I guess the springs are held by another nut/locking thing even if you remove the piston head, so they dont decompress.

The gasket can be changed w/o removing the piston head, or not?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S it's easier to pull the piston out to change the seal, shower screen etc.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Out of interest, what kind of shots are you pulling?


 Hi Graham...can you be more specific?

I am pulling ristretto shots into water (long blacks)...is that what you mean?


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Is there a way of muting or turning off the standby lights besides turning off the green on/off switch under the side cover?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Paolo5 I use a smart plug and run it on a schedule. Solves the problem


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

@Paolo5, you mentioned a '..... leveller and a Joe Frex tamper that are size-matched to the IMS basket.'

Could you advise what leveller it is - I need to get one.

Also, what size Joe Frex tamper have you found works will with the IMS baskets? I know they make a 55mm one, but I thought it might be a touch large.

Thanks.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Elephantoplasty said:


> @Paolo5, you mentioned a '..... leveller and a Joe Frex tamper that are size-matched to the IMS basket.'
> 
> Could you advise what leveller it is - I need to get one.
> 
> ...


 Hi Elephantoplasty, The Joe Frex 55mm head on the tamper works really well with the IMS basket (a great fit) but is too large for the standard baskets.

The leveller that I mentioned is one of these-


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Paolo5 said:


> Is there a way of muting or turning off the standby lights besides turning off the green on/off switch under the side cover?





DavecUK said:


> use a smart plug and run it on a schedule. Solves the problem


 As an admirer of this machine, it would be a shame to use a smart plug if the machine itself provides functionality for a on/off schedule timer. That's perfect for most households and use cases.

Maybe a firmware upgrade at some point?


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

The Vesuvius has a sleep mode with a blank screen. When you touch the screen in the RHS top corner, the machine turns on.

If this is possible with the Evo, I would see it as a desirable feature.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Paolo5 said:


> The Vesuvius has a sleep mode with a blank screen. When you touch the screen in the RHS top corner, the machine turns on.
> 
> If this is possible with the Evo, I would see it as a desirable feature.


 I'd agree/second this, and add that during sleep mode turn off the service boiler. Then on wake (touch screen) enables service boiler allowing the steam to be ready by the time a shot has been pulled...

It's on my wish list..;-)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well I don't care, until I take Frankenstien apart to snip off the leg of Capacitor number 4.....I have a timing loop created that constantly sends a voltage pulse to the pump (heartbeat)...even in standby!!! So I sorta have to use a smart plug. At least I found the bug, so you guys don't have the same bug...an advantage of Alpha testing!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Anyone has exactly this basket?

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0922Z67KK/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=B0922Z67KK&linkCode=as2&tag=hoonscoffee-20&linkId=5fc27f5d9f8cd42bffddf226aac7f098


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

I got it by mistake and returned it. It's only 53 mm inside diameter.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I was hoping it fits cause it's a bit smaller and then you would dose less. (18-19g).

What basket are you guys using? from ims, and let me know if it fits 55mm tampers.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

The IMS B662TH26M basket is for 14-18 grams. If you want a bit more there is the standard IMS SM2T123 basket that's for 18 grams but is 28.5 mm high.

I don't have the machine yet so all I can test is if my 54.4 mm tamper fits.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> I was hoping it fits cause it's a bit smaller and then you would dose less. (18-19g).
> 
> What basket are you guys using? from ims, and let me know if it fits 55mm tampers.


 @Paolo5mentioned above that 55mm works for the IMS baskets. 55mm is too large for the ones that come with the machine.

There are two main ones that I found as mentioned above -

B662TH26M and B662TH32M


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> ...B662TH26M and B662TH32M...


 These are the same baskets I have also. Attached please see my <53mm tamper easily fitting into the 14/18g B662TH26M, leaving a little under 1mm all around.

Hope this helps.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I ordered 4 cheap baskets from Cafe Parts:

https://www.cafeparts.com/Filter-2-Cups-14-Gr-New-Type/Product/9412

https://www.cafeparts.com/2-Cups-Filter-21-Gr/Product/16567
https://www.cafeparts.com/2-cup-Filter-16-Grams/Product/9414

https://www.cafeparts.com/2-Cups-Filter-18-Gr/Product/16566
+ 3 ims baskets and a shower screen

If you want a long wall dosing ring then Ipanema 53.5mm from OE works really well. The short wall dosing ring from Bravo is amazing to accommodate for your 58mm dosing cup (He had 2 outside diameter choices 88mm and 67mm ~ I went with 88mm) only downside is the dosing rings don't have magnets! 
My tamper's diameter is 55mm and it fits the IMS and the CafeParts baskets but there is still room in the cafeparts baskets which makes me think 55.2mm would be better for it. Fortunately, I can buy any diameter I want from Gilberto. I hope this helps.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I've got the two mentioned earlier, B662TH26M and B662TH32M. Internal diameter on both is 55mm so got a 54.7mm Bravo Tamper which fits perfectly. Didn't want a larger gap as I don't on my 58mm basket/tamper combo

20g in the larger of the two only fills it 50% but I think the group extends some way into the basket.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Thank you guys. the B662TH26M i'll take off my list since it has no holes at the edge, leaving an unextracted ring at the bottom of the puck. For dark to medium this is okay, for my lighter beans not really.

The ims 32mm height it's too big, I dont want to go above 18-19g doses, I feel like that one might need 21-22g minimum.

I also have a bplus that is 1.8mm thick (aproximate 2 g of coffee taken out of the headspace). We will see what we find out. Maybe I like the original baskets more, and stick to those.

For the 58mm this is my favorite basket, gaggia 14g (7 holes at the edge, not 5 -older). It's cone shaped.

Don't feel offended of the 2stroke motor boat sound:

https://streamable.com/yaisjj

@MW11 if you could do a photo with the 4 coffeepart baskets flipped upside down all in one picture to compare that would be great. Thank you. I'm mostly interested in the hole pattern and the hole ratio to the bottom.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Bottom left is the IMS + the piston tool. The IMS holes look smaller than the other LF baskets.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

@MW11 Would you mind showing a picture of the "business side" of the tool where it engages the piston? Thank you!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@SL01Yes sir!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

MW11 said:


> @SL01Yes sir!
> 
> View attachment 58629


 Thank you! Does not look that hard to replicate if exact dimensions can be taken .... quite a pleasant surprise.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Italy 🇮🇹 VS England 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

If Italy wins, I think @Paolo_Cortesewill send us gifts with our machines🎁

Sorry boys! I'm rooting for the motherland ☕ 🍕 🍝


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Italy ???????? VS England ????????????????????????????
> 
> If Italy wins, I think @Paolo_Cortesewill send us gifts with our machines????
> 
> Sorry boys! I'm rooting for the motherland ☕ ???? ????


 Of course, we understand! ????

What a final it's going to be.

Sorry mate, as I said before:










????????????


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Is this the world cup final?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> Is this the world cup final?


 I'm not sure if you are joking&#8230; 🤔

but no, it's the EURO 2020 final on Sunday, England vs Italy.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Is this the world cup final?










????


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm not sure if you are joking&#8230; 🤔
> 
> but no, it's the EURO 2020 final on Sunday, England vs Italy.


 I don't follow football, and before I can change channel, seems to be a lot of fuss. 1966 keeps getting mentioned all the time, so I wondered if it was the world cup.

Plus, something's coming home?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I don't follow football, and before I can change channel, seems to be a lot of fuss. 1966 keeps getting mentioned all the time, so I wondered if it was the world cup.
> 
> Plus, something's coming home?


 Apologies every one for sidetracking the thread!

Yeah! The 1966 was the world cup final, which England won 4-2 against (West) Germany.

"It's coming home" is an English meme, which goes beserk when England plays a major tournament. It's kind of a default English football anthem. It's from a song called the "Three Lions", released in 1996. We hosted the 1996 Euro, the slogan of the tournament was the "football comes home" as England is normally called the birthplace of a modern football in IMHO. Another reason for that slogan was we never won a major tournament since 1966. For the record, the 1996 world cup was also held in England. Hence, the song assumes a lot of significance.

😊


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Sounds like we're overdue a win in a "major tournament" 😁 I guess after this it will be the Golf season, along with Cricket?

last game of football I watched on telly, I was with my Dad and Keegan was playing for Liverpool...I think he was a striker, but might have been a winger? Can't remember.

P.S. Was just remembering how his long curly (permed?) hair went out dead straight at 90 degrees when he was running. I remember thinking, he must be going pretty fast.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee Sounds like we're overdue a win in a "major tournament" ???? I guess after this it will be the Golf season, along with Cricket?


 Yeah!








????


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I don't follow football,


 I thought so 🙂 - But I wanted to check. I genuinely wasn't sure if you were joking or not 🙂

PS: I don't follow football either. But I am following this one 🙂


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> PS: I don't follow football either. But I am following this one 🙂


 Me too 😂


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

What kind of Master Segue took us from Evo Lever's to Football? Someone's gonna be shown a yellow card, I'm sure of that!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> What kind of Master Segue took us from Evo Lever's to Football? Someone's gonna be shown a yellow card, I'm sure of that!


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> Is this the world cup final?


 No it is just another BBC repeat.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Meanwhile..back at the coffee- anyone tried Turbo Shots?


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Meanwhile..back at the coffee- anyone tried Turbo Shots?


 This was my 15 second shot today - only thing was I wasn't planning on it taking 15 seconds.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@shimon Howdit taste? So called "donut" extraction..


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

> 7 minutes ago, shimon said:
> 
> This was my 15 second shot today - only thing was I wasn't planning on it taking 15 seconds.


 You made me laugh!


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> @shimon Howdit taste? So called "donut" extraction..


 Not sure - it was supposed to be my coffee for a video meeting and had to quickly change my shirt, so no time left to lick off the kitchen wall.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Oh dear! Well console yourself - you invented the Turbo shot! Its a trend..


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@shimon Holy shit!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

shimon said:


> Not sure - it was supposed to be my coffee for a video meeting and had to quickly change my shirt, so no time left to lick off the kitchen wall.


 Oh man! Was that an almighty turbo charged PF sneeze? Wasn't it locked in properly or something?


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

I usually lock it in pretty tight and the flow was definitely not choked as you can see. Maybe I was a bit tentative this time so I didn't knock the precariously balanced phone camera, maybe some grinds on the basket rim didn't give a good seal.

LSM group survived ok (not an EVO but a Izzo Valexia), cup didn't. But definitely something to be weary off as I have seen pics before of the compession rod on LSM groups damaged.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I tell you, when I had the La Pavoni PF sneezes used to scare me. Thankfully I never ever had one. Touch wood!!!!


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

@shimon Just a passing thought but are you using a Cafelat group gasket? I've noticed that on my Rocket I get portafilter creep as in your video unless I over tighten then back off. I never had creep with a conventional gasket.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

that happens when you have a too fine grind, the water cannot enter the puck and then it goes at the edge of the basket and then you press with full water into a non soaked puck that closes/compresses and you end up with a thicking bomb.

The taste wont be good anyway.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

"I never had creep with a conventional gasket. "

You heard it here first, folks!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis S said:


> that happens when you have a too fine grind, the water cannot enter the puck and then it goes at the edge of the basket and then you press with full water into a non soaked puck that closes/compresses and you end up with a thicking bomb.
> 
> The taste wont be good anyway.


 The stuff on the walls will be OK, on the floor I agree....won't taste good.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Rob666 said:


> @shimon Just a passing thought but are you using a Cafelat group gasket? I've noticed that on my Rocket I get portafilter creep as in your video unless I over tighten then back off. I never had creep with a conventional gasket.


 Hi Rob - I'm still on stock gasket, so doubt it. This has also only happened twice in about 150 shots on a new machine - the other time I saw the portafilter start to unlock so I grabbed it in time. The first 30 or so shots I was experimenting lots with grind and dose too, regularly choking the shot and it wasn't happening.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Denis S said:


> that happens when you have a too fine grind, the water cannot enter the puck and then it goes at the edge of the basket and then you press with full water into a non soaked puck that closes/compresses and you end up with a thicking bomb.
> 
> The taste wont be good anyway.


 Wouldn't I see the flow start to slow down in the case? See I'm really at the limit here - 20g in the 32mm deep basket, possibly overdosing, and that grind gives me a ballpark decent flow - typically around that 1.5:1 for a medium roast in 30s. Any coarser and I'll be getting a turbo shot. I was quite shocked at how much coarser I did have to grind on the LSM compared to the Synchronika (58mm E61, rotary).


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> @shimon Howdit taste? So called "donut" extraction..


 Not sure about that, as the donut only appeared during preinfusion. During extaction, puck gets emerged pretty evenly across it (videos at the same dose/grind show it very consistent - donut preinfusion, even during extraction) -- rather than the classic crowding in from the perimeter, or worse, stream joining in the middle joining from the perimeter.

My preinfusion is at boiler pressure - 1.4 bar. I'm theorising because we do grind coarser for LSM levers, there are simply bigger air gaps at the walls and my low preinfusion pressure simply isn't strong enough to take any path.

I did try dosing a progressively less, gram by gram - grinding finer each time to keep the flow healthy, and at 17g the preinfusion donut would no longer appear - or maybe it was taking a very long time.

Would be great to hear how you spoilt EVO guys fare with the variable preinfusion pressure here.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

shimon said:


> Not sure about that, as the donut only appeared during preinfusion. During extaction, puck gets emerged pretty evenly across it (videos at the same dose/grind show it very consistent - donut preinfusion, even during extraction) -- rather than the classic crowding in from the perimeter, or worse, stream joining in the middle joining from the perimeter.
> 
> My preinfusion is at boiler pressure - 1.4 bar. I'm theorising because we do grind coarser for LSM levers, there are simply bigger air gaps at the walls and my low preinfusion pressure simply isn't strong enough to take any path.
> 
> ...


 May I suggest over dosing? When you take the portafilter off after the shot there should be markings of the cylinder sleeve and retainer clip touching the coffee bed. Keep in mind you have to see the circle ⭕ on the coffee bed. Let's know after you try this.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

MW11 said:


> May I suggest over dosing? When you take the portafilter off after the shot there should be markings of the cylinder sleeve and retainer clip touching the coffee bed. Keep in mind you have to see the circle ⭕ on the coffee bed. Let's know after you try this.


 I don't wish to derail the thread for people who come here for EVO talk - so hopefully Izzo and ACS share the same 32mm deep LSM basket so things are relevant. I stopped increasing the dose at 20g when first exploring because at 21g I'd just start to get puck disturbance during lock in if the tamp wasn't level.

With 20g I just get the faintest circle in the higher parts if I hadn't tapped dead level - so I knew I was pretty close. And after extraction, I definitely get the circle. Here's a pic just then after extraction - the roughness of the top suggests I haven't had my face slammed against the window too, although I did unlock with a bit of pressure still in the system as evidenced by the muck on the walls.

So I don't feel I'm overdosing. If anything, maybe another few decigrams might see the grouphead itself tamp down the sides which 53 mm tamper isn't doing too well in a 54.7 mm basket. 11 bar or whatever the LSM leva starts at here sorts the pressure out so I'm not getting a donut extraction, just a donut preinfusion.

How's the fit of EVO tamper?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@shimonI'm still waiting for my machine but I tried to help. What's your grinder? Try less pre infusion time.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

MW11 said:


> @shimonI'm still waiting for my machine but I tried to help. What's your grinder? Try less pre infusion time.


 I appreciate it. I'm not actually sure I've got too much of a problem - just posted the video of the PF unlocking mid extraction to show what can happen with levers as I managed to capture it when filming. Most likely me just not locking the PF well enough this time as I was focusing on filming. Quite glad I didn't destroy the $1000 phone also on the drip tray, or the lever - just a cup that was already crazing.

But I think it's a good discussion about donuting, preinfusion pressures, dosing and tamper fits for the LSM group. I do fiddle around trying to get a level tamp too much, so might start exploring leveller tampers, and slightly larger than the 53 mm Izzo stock tamper. Also the toothpick I WDT with I feel isn't fine enough.

Grinder is a Sette 270 which I've removed the hopper and single dose.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@shimon The grind looks way too coarse to me. It needs to be more like flour and definitely not granular like sugar


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> @shimon The grind looks way too coarse to me. It needs to be more like flour and definitely not granular like sugar


 I'm definitely a lot coarser than I have been with pump machines - but still I can leave 'hard peaks' if I squash with my finger like in the pic here. That's flour for reference in the other pic - unfortunately no sugar around.

Hard to judge from a pic, but do you feel this is too coarse? I was thinking coarser grinds were desirable for the LSM group with its smaller radius basket.

See if I go finer like I did earlier today, I'll just get slow ashy extractions, will be sitting at 15g or so after 30 seconds, unless I dose down as well. Then I'm getting a lot of headspace and no ring imprint after extraction.

Maybe I'm running too cold (see how well I'm selling the EVO's features). I might try upping temp to see if I can grind a bit finer.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Grinder is the problem. Well, it can make espresso and choke it, but it's too uneven and might create problems. The uneven grind can be seen easily. You should not be able to see that, for example from a Niche (which I consider bad for my standards) you dont see those bigger chunks flying around.


----------



## Ciprian75 (Jul 4, 2021)

Hello to all, thx to @Denis S I will be the happy(hope ) ) owner of a Vesuvius Evo Leva from batch 2. I have some small experience with levers, and I use one now. But has no steam and a construction problem(aluminum body) that forced me to find options. From the few current owners, how does Evo handle long shots ( 50-55g) of very light coffee? And plumbed, how it works with low pressure of the water(my osmosis water system deliver small pressure). I hope second batch will be delivered till end July because August is holidays month.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Ciprian Ioan Sirbu said:


> Hello to all, thx to @Denis S I will be the happy(hope ) ) owner of a Vesuvius Evo Leva from batch 2. I have some small experience with levers, and I use one now. But has no steam and a construction problem(aluminum body) that forced me to find options. From the few current owners, how does Evo handle long shots ( 50-55g) of very light coffee? And plumbed, how it works with low pressure of the water(my osmosis water system deliver small pressure). I hope second batch will be delivered till end July because August is holidays month.


 Long shots 50-55g are no problem....

If your water pressure is low, it doesn't matter as it fills the internal plastic tank when mains plumbed. You may have to tweak your tank filling time out setting is all.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

The Sette has no problems with grinding evenly at fine settings. He's just grinding too coarse which is pretty obvious from that puck picture.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

gus6464 said:


> The Sette has no problems with grinding evenly at fine settings. He's just grinding too coarse which is pretty obvious from that puck picture.


 The Sette is made out of plastic wonky parts that under stress and after some time gather some play into the mechanism, similar to some grinders in the breville integrated grinders. Then you have to add shims to take out the play and force the burrs more together. This means that while grinding if there is play, you get a wider spread of particles, with many boulders, and many fines, as seen in his pictures. This means that the fines can act like a plug when pressing with a lever, cause they soak slower, while the boulders can create channels cause water will go fast into a spot were many boulders are grouped. If left side of the puck has more boulders than rest then you see what happens.

While sette is an okay grinder, there are now many options near the same price with much better results. Sorry, I just dont like the grinder, but my standards are pretty high.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Here is a picture of some part finished piston removal tools. I had enough bits to make another seven, with the possibility of three more. The one with the hole in it is the finished prototype which I am keeping. Piston is out of the machine to check fit, six fitted straight away, only one needed a minor amount of fettling. The round bit on the top of one of the tools is the frightfully clever (well I think so 😄) drilling jig to ensure accuracy of the four holes for the pins.

They should be able to take a serious amount of torque but have yet to be tested in anger. Smaller roll pins can be inserted inside the larger pins to strengthen them should it prove necessary. Sized to fit inside the cylinder to enable seals to be changed in situ, although it would be prudent to remove it from the group the first time in case it is tight and you end up unscrewing the whole piston assembly. The tools are long enough to be used to push the screen out from the top of the group after removing the circlip.









Price will be about £35 plus Postage. I'll put an advert up when they are ready in a week or so.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Norvin said:


> Here is a picture of some part finished piston removal tools. I had enough bits to make another seven, with the possibility of three more. The one with the hole in it is the finished prototype which I am keeping. Piston is out of the machine to check fit, six fitted straight away, only one needed a minor amount of fettling. The round bit on the top of one of the tools is the frightfully clever (well I think so 😄) drilling jig to ensure accuracy of the four holes for the pins.
> 
> They should be able to take a serious amount of torque but have yet to be tested in anger. Smaller roll pins can be inserted inside the larger pins to strengthen them should it prove necessary. Sized to fit inside the cylinder to enable seals to be changed in situ, although it would be prudent to remove it from the group the first time in case it is tight and you end up unscrewing the whole piston assembly. The tools are long enough to be used to push the screen out from the top of the group after removing the circlip.
> 
> ...


 If there is a list in the meantime I'd love to be on it!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Price will be about £35 plus Postage. I'll put an advert up when they are ready in a week or so.


 I will take one please. Could you PM me the bank details for a bank transfer please ? Thx


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin's piston removal tool:

@Norvin

Hope you don't mind me creating a list. Apologies and ignore otherwise.

1: Steevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3:

4:

5:

6:

7:

8:

9:

10:


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Please add me on your list! Thank you.

@NorvinI am in the US, hope that's not a problem.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

1: Steevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3: SL01

4:

5:

6:

7:

8:

9:

10:


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Well done @Norvin

I already have a tool but I'll ask my friend if he wants one.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I will take one please. Could you PM me the bank details for a bank transfer please ? Thx


 Thanks for starting the list. Payment by Paypal friends and faily preferred, I'll contact people when they are ready, which probably won't be until week after next.



SL01 said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee Please add me on your list! Thank you.
> 
> @NorvinI am in the US, hope that's not a problem.


 Not a problem. I would prefer if non uk people could arrange their own courier and I'll print off the labels, but I can look into couriers later..


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Not a problem. I would prefer if non uk people could arrange their own courier and I'll print off the labels, but I can look into couriers later..


 I reckon the Royal Mail works just fine as there's no rush for me. UK to US via Royal Mail is approx. 20 days. I hope you do not mind.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Norvin:

Thanks mate. Please take your time. No rush.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Norvin's piston removal tool:

1: Steevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3: SL01

4:danielpugh

5:

6:

7:

8:

9:

10:


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

danielpugh said:


> Norvin's piston removal tool:
> 
> 1: Steevebee
> 
> ...


 Thanks Norvin


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Just correcting my name spelling :

Norvin's piston removal tool:

1: Stevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3: SL01

4:danielpugh

5: TomR

6:

7:

8:

9:

10:


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Norvin's piston removal tool.

1: Steevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3: SL01

4:danielpugh

5: TomR

6: Systemic Kid

7:

8:

9:

10:


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Norvin's piston removal tool.

1: Steevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3: SL01

4:danielpugh

5: TomR

6: Systemic Kid

7: pinky

8:

9:

10:


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Norvin's piston removal tool.

1: Steevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3: SL01

4:danielpugh

5: TomR

6: Systemic Kid

7: pinky

8aolo from Oz

9:

10:


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Norvin's piston removal tool.

1: Steevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3: SL01

4:danielpugh

5: TomR

6: Systemic Kid

7: pinky

8aolo from Oz

9: Codes123 from Downton

10:


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Norvin's piston removal tool.

1: Steevebee

2: Like Medium Strong Coffee

3: SL01

4:danielpugh

5: TomR

6: Systemic Kid

7: pinky

8aolo from Oz

9: Codes123 from Downton

10: Shimon


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Ah dammit I go to sleep and I miss out! If there's another batch I'd love to hope on the list for that.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah dammit I go to sleep and I miss out! If there's another batch I'd love to hope on the list for that.


 @Norvin will have to confirm if he would be able to make a few more.

Norvin has already made one for himself; MW11 has one and we have 10 on the list.

@gearosthyd is interested. How of the remaining 7 would be interested in one please? @DavecUK has the alpha test bed. It's the same group. He may also require one.

May I request the read advise please ? Norvin may then decide if he is able to make them.

Thanks,

Sundar


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @Norvin will have to confirm if he would be able to make a few more.
> 
> Norvin has already made one for himself; MW11 has one and we have 10 on the list.
> 
> ...


 Yes, I can make more. Please don't start another list and clog up this thread, I'll post an advert in the classifieds when I have more supplies.

I am also going to order material to make more dosing rings to fit these smaller baskets and may do a special price for the two bought together.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Norvin said:


> make more dosing rings


 The infamous Norvin portafilter hopper. I had two of different heights. They are excellent!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> am also going to order material to make more dosing rings to fit these smaller baskets and may do a special price for the two bought together.


 I will be interested in a dosing ring for the Evo's stock baskets please.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Ok, that sounds great @Norvin. Definitely count me in!


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

So back to the leva, does anyone have an update on the 2nd batch production? I haven't heard anything from @Paolo_Cortese. Last I heard he was still waiting for some electronics.


----------



## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Norvin said:


> I am also going to order material to make more dosing rings to fit these smaller baskets and may do a special price for the two bought together.


 You can count me in as well for this deal @Norvin!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> So back to the leva, does anyone have an update on the 2nd batch production? I haven't heard anything from @Paolo_Cortese. Last I heard he was still waiting for some electronics.


 I know @SL01, who is on #13, paid yesterday. I'm on #16 and haven't heard from Paolo. Shouldn't take long now.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> The Sette has no problems with grinding evenly at fine settings. He's just grinding too coarse which is pretty obvious from that puck picture.





Denis S said:


> Grinder is the problem. Well, it can make espresso and choke it, but it's too uneven and might create problems. The uneven grind can be seen easily. You should not be able to see that, for example from a Niche (which I consider bad for my standards) you dont see those bigger chunks flying around.


 It sounds like then I'm in no-mans lands with the Sette -- as I have to grind this coarsely get a healthy flow with a 20g dose.

But coarser on the Sette is known to produce a lot of fines. That means I have to go even coarser to cater, leading to a combination of over and underextraction. Would that sound right?

I can of course grind finer and have similar looking pucks to your Niche pictures - but we're getting down to 14g in the 20g basket then.

@The Systemic KidYou mentioned with the EVO you found 21g was ideal in the 32mm - is your grind coarser that what you used on previous machines?


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> ...I am also going to order material to make more dosing rings to fit these smaller baskets and may do a special price for the two bought together.


 @NorvinThank you - that would be great! Below are a few measurements if that would be helpful:

1. I measured the first ID of the IMS B662Th26M basket immediately below the rolled rim where the dosing funnel would drop into and it's 55.12mm.

2. I use a HG-1 and the supplied "blind tumbler" has 2 rims measured at 58.69mm and 49.35mm presumably to fit the ubiquitous 58mm and Olympia 49mm baskets. It would work on the LSM baskets but not very close to a good fit. Hopefully your dosing funnel would fit the LSM basket well enough that I can directly dose from the HG-1 into the original ACS or IMS baskets.

3. Along that line - any suggestions for a portafilter stand for use directly below the HG-1 funnel? It's 85.84mm from the bottom of the funnel to the surface of the stand.

Thank you.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@shimonsorry to say this but there is something wrong with your grinder. Try taking the burrs out for cleaning. I think a bean got stuck in there or something. Use the shims sent by Baratza if necessary. If all this doesn't work then try another grinder before judging the machine. The grind size in your puck isn't right.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

SL01 said:


> @NorvinThank you - that would be great! Below are a few measurements if that would be helpful:
> 
> 1. I measured the first ID of the IMS B662Th26M basket immediately below the rolled rim where the dosing funnel would drop into and it's 55.12mm.
> 
> ...


 1. I can make a dosing ring with a 55mm spigot to fit into the basket if needed, the one I made earlier is 54mm and is a little loose in the standard basket (but still Ok). Now that I have the machine here I can make the dosing rings to be a closer fit into the standard basket, which should also fit the IMS.

2. I buy the blanks in 60 mm lengths and cut them in two to make the dosing rings, they work out at about 25mm high. When resting the bottomless portafilter on the bench the basket rim is about 41mm high, it doesn't sit quite level due to the underside of the handle. So a dosing ring of about 44mm tall (85-41mm) is easily possible. This extended dosing ring would enabe you to grind directly into the portafilter. The outer diameter is about 63mm.

I could also make an adaptor ring to fit the 58.4. diameter of the dosing cup at one end and 54mm at the other to fit into the basket, that can be almost any height.

3. I have made a portafilter stand for my Compak but don't really want to get into making those as I'm not really set up for milling.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

MW11 said:


> @shimonsorry to say this but there is something wrong with your grinder. Try taking the burrs out for cleaning. I think a bean got stuck in there or something. Use the shims sent by Baratza if necessary. If all this doesn't work then try another grinder before judging the machine. The grind size in your puck isn't right.


 I've been learning that from the helpful posts here and indicated so above. I've read many times on Alex Leva threads that LSM levers use a coarser grind, but obviously not as much as I've been finding. Already shimmed and clean. As Denis notes, it's probably getting a bit loose with the plastic - a good 8 pounds per month through it for 18 months, or maybe some new burrs needed. I have been looking at new grinders over the last two months, just haven't found anything yet I like.

Also I've been enjoying the coffee from it immensely so don't even consider I have a problem to start with to think about judging the machine. But we always want better, right?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@shimontaste is king and if you like the taste then there is nothing wrong with the grinder.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> 1. I can make a dosing ring with a 55mm spigot to fit into the basket if needed, the one I made earlier is 54mm and is a little loose in the standard basket (but still Ok). Now that I have the machine here I can make the dosing rings to be a closer fit into the standard basket, which should also fit the IMS.
> 
> 2. I buy the blanks in 60 mm lengths and cut them in two to make the dosing rings, they work out at about 25mm high. When resting the bottomless portafilter on the bench the basket rim is about 41mm high, it doesn't sit quite level due to the underside of the handle. So a dosing ring of about 44mm tall (85-41mm) is easily possible. This extended dosing ring would enabe you to grind directly into the portafilter. The outer diameter is about 63mm.
> 
> ...


 @Norvin WOW - this is great! Thank you so much!

1. For me personally, I will only have the Evo so only one dosing ring is all I need to fit the standard Evo and IMS baskets. I am sure a stepped setup à la the HG-1 tumbler would allow the same ring to fit both the 58mm and LSM's Evo/IMS baskets for others.

2. The extended height of the dosing ring is also brilliant - and I can do my part by shimming/lifting the HG-1 off the counter just enough to have the end of the portafilter handle touching the counter hence leveling the basket. I opted for black phenolic handles so the length maybe different from the wood ones - I think you got both in your kit.

3. My HG-1 is the 2016 version which does not have the leather mat that came standard on the 2020 version. I use a piece of shelf liner typically found in toolboxes instead. It's black, washable, has holes to trap stray grinds/fines, measures at 4mm uncompressed and its sponginess offers excellent cushioning. Would this material combined with the tall dosing funnel not obviate the need for a portafilter stand? Perhaps if this was my lucky day the thickness of the shelf liner (or multiples thereof) would already be sufficient to offset the tilt in the basket!

This is getting better all the time! Thanks again @Norvin!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@SL01are we the only ones without espresso machines? After using the robot for months I hate it and I hate the workflow. It's a pain to make coffee with it. Heat this heat that loss heat here and there and now I only drink drip coffee ☕. Can't wait for the long awaited proper espresso machine 😩. You're getting yours first so I'm interested in hearing what temperatures you're going with for dark and medium roasts.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I know @SL01, who is on #13, paid yesterday. I'm on #16 and haven't heard from Paolo. Shouldn't take long now.


 About that... How do you know which number are you?

I had not been informed at all.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

msmk0 said:


> How do you know which number are you?


 Paolo advised me after receiving my payment.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Paolo advised me after receiving my payment.


 Ok, looks like at some point he lost the count! 😅 ( I did my initial payment mid-April).


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

msmk0 said:


> Ok, looks like at some point he lost the count! 😅 ( I did my initial payment mid-April).


 We all probably paid at the same time. We know he is so busy producing the super quality lovely beast with a small team. It won't be long now. 😊


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Been away for a few days so just catching up on this thread. @shimon with my previous set up for light roast (lever), settled on an 18grm dose as standard - haven't gone above that but have tinkered around with 17grms before settling back to 18 grms with a ratio of 1:2. Sticking with 18 grms - pull the shot when pressure gauge hits 6 bar which gives a consistent repeatable 1:2 - 1:2.5. Mantra for levers is grind as fine as you can and tamp light. This can create problems - danger of channelling but it's worth seeing how far you can go.

Just made a couple of shots with Origin Columbian Villazaro pulped natural which features pineapple as lead tasting note. First shot ran for 11 secs PI and complete in 25 secs. Without tasting it, tightened up the grind on the EKs from 1.25 to 1.00. Although this doesn't sound a lot - on an EK it is. Same dose. PI ran exactly the same - 11 secs with shot complete in same time 25 secs. Tasting the two shots side by side, couldn't really taste any difference - the finer grind being a tad more balanced but that's splitting hairs. Both shots were stellar. Big bold pineapple and balanced acidity leaving you wanting more. Garnered a prolonged 'mmm' from Mrs Systemic - praise indeed.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

@MW11 Not long now - just hold your breath and the magic dust will descend on you soon. For quicker action, close your eyes. 🙂


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

When I receive the Evo Leva, I'm going into hiding. 🙅🏻‍♂️🥸

I just bought those mini jars and a cheap vacuum sealer to try them together. Thank you@The Systemic Kidand @Denis Sfor all the info

https://www.amazon.sa/-/en/gp/aw/d/B08GP6PXPZ?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image

https://www.amazon.sa/-/en/gp/aw/d/B0919Y2N3M?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> When I receive the Evo Leva, I'm going into hiding. 🙅🏻‍♂️🥸
> 
> I just bought those mini jars and a cheap vacuum sealer to try them together. Thank you@The Systemic Kidand @Denis Sfor all the info
> 
> ...


 Snap/great minds - just randomly bought a cheapo vaccuum sealer - mxbold - was thinking re-useable ideally, which could have been a mistake...

And a random unexpected eBay purchase of a grinder.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> Snap/great minds - just randomly bought a cheapo vaccuum sealer - mxbold - was thinking re-useable ideally, which could have been a mistake...
> 
> And a random unexpected eBay purchase of a grinder.


 Congrats on the grinder 🥳

I live in an oven that's why I desperately need to freeze my beans (doctor's orders)


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I know @SL01, who is on #13, paid yesterday. I'm on #16 and haven't heard from Paolo. Shouldn't take long now.


 I dont think your post helps here.

For example I have payed the deposit on 10 March, that makes me #1 on batch 2 for sure. No email for the final payment yet. So I wont even bother asking, when it comes it comes.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I dont think your post helps here.










????


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

@MW11 @danielpugh

I bought a cheapo vaccuum sealer, would use it 5 times a day, 3 years still going strong - cheapo is great! And these vacuum lids so I can seal the beans in glass mason jars, but don't think I paid that much for them: https://www.amazon.com/FoodSaver-FCARWJAH-000-Wide-Mouth-Regular-Accessory/dp/B016OL1AB6


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Puck screens:

Using my Alex Leva (LSM group), I still get some visible channelling (micro spatter on cup rim) with finer ground lighter roasts. I wonder if this is the higher pressure ? It is better if I gradually allow the lever to apply full pressure, I guess progressively infusing the puck, rather than slamming it straight up to 10+bar. Darker roasts, no problem. Using a Niche

I have installed an IMS screen, leaving me the original screen spare. I tried putting it on top of the puck. There is a 1-2 mm gap at the edges. Surprisingly to me it makes visible channelling and ??taste much better (plus keeps the group head screen v clean). I note the HB thread that found dosing right up to the group head shower screen / circlip effective but messy for the same problem.

So I wonder whether a BPlus mesh screen would be a good thing? They make a 55mm one , which would probably (?) fit the IMS basket I have but perhaps not the OEM ones that are a little smaller. Or there is a 53.7 one that would be a little undersized.

$60 plus dollars delivered would be an expensive experiment

Thoughts??


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

The 55mm Bplus screen fits the IMS basket nicely. I can dose 20gm of coffee easily and still use the Bplus screen.

The 55mm Bplus will not fit into the standard LSM basket.

I am now a convert of using a puck screen for lever machines for two reasons-

*They keep the shower screen spotlessly clean.

*They can help prevent channeling in machines that have vigorous ingress of water.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> The 55mm Bplus will not fit into the standard LSM basket.


 What do you use on the standard LSM baskets ? I am not sure if there is one them.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I haven't used a standard basket but have had good success with with the IMS basket using -

*55mm Bplus screen

*'Dutch weave' stainless mesh cut to size

*stainless Aeropress filters trimmed to size and

*https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/spare-parts/parts-by-category/shower-screens/700633-group-lever-shower-head

which doesn't need trimming to fit into the LSM basket.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Paolo5 said:


> I haven't used a standard basket but have had good success with with the IMS basket using -
> 
> *'Dutch weave' stainless mesh cut to size
> 
> ...


 In case anyone wants the screen in the UK - is here:

https://espresso-solutions.co.uk/amp/group-lever-shower-head/

And here:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Cimbali-Espresso-Coffee-Machine-shower-plate-approx-52mm-new-/231534023173?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Paolo5now test it with the dispersion screen and without it. Does it make any difference in taste? I wish there was paper filters of the same size! Would be easier to dump the puck afterwards without worrying about the screen ( convenient workflow)


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

According to the IMS website, there are 4 models that fit LSM. The one I got should fit but can't confirm until it has actually been fitted to my machine.

"Any day now"....


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

MW11 said:


> @Paolo5now test it with the dispersion screen and without it. Does it make any difference in taste? I wish there was paper filters of the same size! Would be easier to dump the puck afterwards without worrying about the screen ( convenient workflow)


 Perhaps this or something like it would let you punch suitable filters from larger ones?
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiskars-Squeeze-Punch-XL-Right-handed/dp/B000VPNXVC/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&keywords="48mm"+round+hole+craft+punch&qid=1626010852&s=kitchen&sr=1-19


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

SL01 said:


> According to the IMS website, there are 4 models that fit LSM. The one I got should fit but can't confirm until it has actually been fitted to my machine.
> 
> "Any day now"....
> 
> ...


 Just a heads up - I think that may be the wrong one - I also made the same mistake. IMS make a "San Marco" and a "San Marco lever".

https://www.imsfiltri.com/docce/sml200im/


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> Just a heads up - I think that may be the wrong one - I also made the same mistake. IMS make a "San Marco" and a "San Marco lever".
> 
> https://www.imsfiltri.com/docce/sml200im/


 I bought this from down under!

https://www.talkcoffee.com.au/shop/ims-competition-basket-and-shower-for-izzo-leva-group/


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Rob666 said:


> Perhaps this or something like it would let you punch suitable filters from larger ones?
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiskars-Squeeze-Punch-XL-Right-handed/dp/B000VPNXVC/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&keywords="48mm"+round+hole+craft+punch&qid=1626010852&s=kitchen&sr=1-19


 Great idea but how cool is it if there was filters like the Aeropress's 😈


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> Just a heads up - I think that may be the wrong one - I also made the same mistake. IMS make a "San Marco" and a "San Marco lever".
> 
> https://www.imsfiltri.com/docce/sml200im/


 @danielpugh Thank you! Back to the drawing board then.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Why? The sm200im is the wrong size (48mm) but the sml200im is not (50.5mm)


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Finally installed my son's Evo and he decides on personalising it.​





​


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi @pinky, not only is the IMS SM200IM too small @ 48mm diameter, it also has a screw hole in the centre which would be open on the lever group, and no shower holes in the centre, unlike the SML200IM, which has shower screen holes throughout, and no centre hole.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

The spare (courtesy of Paolo Cortese) and the equivalent lower shower screen from IMS-as shown above by Elephantoplasty.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> Perhaps this or something like it would let you punch suitable filters from larger ones?
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/Fiskars-Squeeze-Punch-XL-Right-handed/dp/B000VPNXVC/ref=sr_1_19?dchild=1&keywords="48mm"+round+hole+craft+punch&qid=1626010852&s=kitchen&sr=1-19


 It is so easy to trim a stainless Aeropress filter. I used tinsnips but scissors wouldn't go completely dull after cutting even a few of them. If you are careful, the one filter will last indefinitely. Being wafer thin, it will not last as long as a Bplus disc...but hey...cheap as chips.

I don't notice any different tastes when using one. There is less chance of channeling IMO...so that not channeling vs channeling would give taste advantages....and that screen stays spotless.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

So to install a new shower screen like the ims you need to use the special piston tool?


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I haven't installed a new shower screen yet. I removed the OE circlip but the LSM screen is tightly located underneath the piston.

From what others have said here, in a tight fit such as in my machine....you have to undo the 4xM10 acorn nuts holding the spring section to the group section and withdraw the piston from the top. This will give you access to use the tool that Norvin is manufacturing (or a cylindrical rod close to the diameter of the screen) to gently drive the OE screen out through the bottom of the group.. You obviously need to remove the circlip first.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I haven't removed the screen from my machine either. I got as far as removing the circlip and the top of the group but didn't try to remove the screen as I didn't want to risk damaging it. I first thought that a suitably sized socket on an extension bar could be used to push the screen out but realised that the piston removal tool I have made would be better as it is a very close fit in the bore. Perhaps by gently tapping the screen out or maybe by dropping the tool down the bore so that it acts like a slide hammer.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Some of you have had this for a few weeks now. Do you guys do any weekly / bi-weekly cleaning please ? Also, it would be good if you share the EOD cleaning routine. Thanks!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, as we all know, the lever does not suck back at the end of a shot. All my previous levers when I dropped the screen I used to ask myself why I bothered! I will probably come up with a blank flushing disc (does anyone have a pointer towards one?) then every now and then when my service agent calls in (The Systemic Kid) we will assess


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 Thanks mate. I like the simplicity of maintenance! 😊

Why do we need a blank flushing disc? Is it for back flushing? I thought the Evo does not require this, which I also thought I read some where in this thread. Of course, I would like an ability to clean the shower screen regularly, which we now know can be accessed via Norvin's piston removal tool.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> I haven't removed the screen from my machine either. I got as far as removing the circlip and the top of the group but didn't try to remove the screen as I didn't want to risk damaging it. I first thought that a suitably sized socket on an extension bar could be used to push the screen out but realised that the piston removal tool I have made would be better as it is a very close fit in the bore. Perhaps by gently tapping the screen out or maybe by dropping the tool down the bore so that it acts like a slide hammer.


 Just in case of scratches...the bore is stainless, not chromed brass, so it should be pretty resilient...be careful. I think if I was going to remove the shower screen, I would probably use a bit of plastic pipe (sink drainaige pipe or similar), drop it down and gently tap it.

Shower screen removal should not really be needed very if you flush the group through, although eventually they get a bit gunky I suppose. The main thing is to use inner circlip pliers to remove the circlip. If you can get some where you set the max movement with a set screw, even better.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @dfk41 Thanks mate. I like the simplicity of maintenance! 😊
> 
> Why do we need a blank flushing disc? Is it for back flushing? I thought the Evo does not require this, which I also thought I read some where in this thread. Of course, I would like an ability to clean the shower screen regularly, which we now know can be accessed via Norvin's piston removal tool.


 A backlash disc will circulate water in and around the group head. You then take the disc out and flush a bit more water through. I did not mean to use with detergent. I used to like the German made tool, the red handle with the membrane (cannot remember the name now!) as a simple way of cleaning


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Just in case of scratches...the bore is stainless, not chromed brass, so it should be pretty resilient...be careful. I think if I was going to remove the shower screen, I would probably use a bit of plastic pipe (sink drainaige pipe or similar), drop it down and gently tap it.
> 
> Shower screen removal should not really be needed very if you flush the group through, although eventually they get a bit gunky I suppose. The main thing is to use inner circlip pliers to remove the circlip. If you can get some where you set the max movement with a set screw, even better.


 The tool is made from aluminium with rounded edges, so should not pose much of a scratch risk.



dfk41 said:


> A backlash disc will circulate water in and around the group head. You then take the disc out and flush a bit more water through. I did not mean to use with detergent. I used to like the German made tool, the red handle with the membrane (cannot remember the name now!) as a simple way of cleaning


 Espazzola?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Norvin said:


> The tool is made from aluminium with rounded edges, so should not pose much of a scratch risk.
> 
> Espazzola?


 Ah, I didn't realise...very true, the tool should be perfect for the job. The stainless steel bore will be more than capable of resisting scratches.

@dfk41 A backflush disk won't do the same as on an E61 and would be quite dangerous to try and use.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> I used to like the German made tool, the red handle with the membrane (cannot remember the name now!) as a simple way of cleaning


 Espazzola - Italian name, (Spazzola means "brush" in Italian). Swiss made 🙂

https://www.espazzola.ch/en/

They do make a 53-54mm version 🙂 Might fit the Evo.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> A backflush disk won't do the same as on an E61 and would be quite dangerous to try and use.


 Yeah. No back flushing. Thanks.

So in simple terms: the following should be enough unless we have a problem:

(1) clean and flush after a shot or back to back shots,

(2) empty and wipe the tray EoD,

(3) No weekly or monthly maintenance,

(4) May be remove the whole group unit once in 3 months from the top by removing the 4 M10 acorn nuts, use the piston removal tool, gently knock off the shower screen, give it wash and put them back. Perhaps, molykote and PFTE.

(5) Watch out for any scaling on the service boiler - if one is steaming a lot.

Happy to be corrected.

I am sure, we may require some 6 monthly and annual TLC. Thanks


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> @dfk41 A backflush disk won't do the same as on an E61 and would be quite dangerous to try and use.


 But if you did decide to go ahead could you please video it as the last portafilter blow out made for entertaining and dramatic viewing. 😂 Only joking of course as with the blind it could be even worse


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I have found all baskets I need including the after marker ones that a 55mm bplus and tamper will fit. The IMS 26mm height too that fits dalla corte too.

If you are in Eu (specially around Germany) here is the website: espressoxxl.de

They do have the 14 and 16g aftermarket basket from coffeeparts.com and the ims too. shipping is also not so expensive.

I spam my mail daily in the hope that I get a mail from Paolo with the final payment request. Anyone has any updates? I do not want to bug him.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> I have found all baskets I need including the after marker ones that a 55mm bplus and tamper will fit. The IMS 26mm height too that fits dalla corte too.
> 
> If you are in Eu (specially around Germany) here is the website: espressoxxl.de
> 
> ...


 I was just after you in paying the deposit - not heard a thing yet.

So did you find a basket without the gap around the edge? Have you got a link pls if so?


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Norvin said:


> 1. I can make a dosing ring with a 55mm spigot to fit into the basket if needed, the one I made earlier is 54mm and is a little loose in the standard basket (but still Ok). Now that I have the machine here I can make the dosing rings to be a closer fit into the standard basket, which should also fit the IMS.
> 
> 2. I buy the blanks in 60 mm lengths and cut them in two to make the dosing rings, they work out at about 25mm high. When resting the bottomless portafilter on the bench the basket rim is about 41mm high, it doesn't sit quite level due to the underside of the handle. So a dosing ring of about 44mm tall (85-41mm) is easily possible. This extended dosing ring would enabe you to grind directly into the portafilter. The outer diameter is about 63mm.
> 
> ...


 Hi @Norvin, I too am interested in a removal tool and dosing ring, I'm in Oz.

Have you thought about making the dosing ring with an external lip rather than internal and with a 55mm internal diameter so that the puck can be tamped without removing the ring? I've seen a few on Amazon but they are all for 58mm basket, none for 55mm.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Like this one?

https://www.tidaka.net/de/product.html?q=%2Fde%2Ftrichter%2Fboard-trichter-la-san-marco.html&info=1264


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

danielpugh said:


> I was just after you in paying the deposit - not heard a thing yet.
> 
> So did you find a basket without the gap around the edge? Have you got a link pls if so?


 No I did not find one. Need one that let's me use the bplus 55mm mesh at the top, and some of them are too small.


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

pinky said:


> Like this one?
> 
> https://www.tidaka.net/de/product.html?q=%2Fde%2Ftrichter%2Fboard-trichter-la-san-marco.html&info=1264


 good find!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I've used a 58mm Tidaka for years and they work, and feel, excellent.


----------



## audiocore (Jul 2, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Espazzola - Italian name, (Spazzola means "brush" in Italian). Swiss made 🙂
> 
> https://www.espazzola.ch/en/
> 
> They do make a 53-54mm version 🙂 Might fit the Evo.


 The 53/54 mm Espazzola does not fit the LSM-Group.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Denis S said:


> I have found all baskets I need including the after marker ones that a 55mm bplus and tamper will fit. The IMS 26mm height too that fits dalla corte too.
> 
> If you are in Eu (specially around Germany) here is the website: espressoxxl.de
> 
> ...


 Good morning, only two machines will be shipped this week of the second batch, the rest before of the end of this month unfortunately the stock of some electronic part are empty everywhere due of low production during the Covid. Of course our intention is always to ship the machines asap. Sorry to keep some customers waiting.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

audiocore said:


> The 53/54 mm Espazzola does not fit the LSM-Group.


 Interesting. Genuine question: do you know why, or maybe tried it out? I don't have the machine or the Espazzola, but their website says it fits LSM machines. Is this because the V Evo is not an LSM machine but an LSM lever group fitted on a different machine? I'd be curious to understand. 👍








source: https://www.espazzola.ch/en/shop/


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Good morning Paolo and thank you for the update.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I found this one for people who drink more cups per day and dont want to go with higher doses:

https://www.espressoxxl.de/KAFFEESIEB-2-TASSEN-12-gr-DALLA-CORTE-LA-SAN-MARCO

It's 24mm height, so I guess 14-15 g max. But I do not know if it's a good idea to go that low on a 10-11 bar machine even if the group is 53mm not 58mm. On 58mm I like 18-19g doses instead of 15g.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

rusty pie said:


> Hi @Norvin, I too am interested in a removal tool and dosing ring, I'm in Oz.
> 
> Have you thought about making the dosing ring with an external lip rather than internal and with a 55mm internal diameter so that the puck can be tamped without removing the ring? I've seen a few on Amazon but they are all for 58mm basket, none for 55mm.


 I didn't make them like that for the 58 mm dosing rings as the outer diameter of the blanks wasn't large enough. I'll have a look at whether it is feasible for the smaller LSM baskets. If it is, I be able to offer both versions.


----------



## audiocore (Jul 2, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Interesting. Genuine question: do you know why, or maybe tried it out? I don't have the machine or the Espazzola, but their website says it fits LSM machines. Is this because the V Evo is not an LSM machine but an LSM lever group fitted on a different machine? I'd be curious to understand. ????
> 
> View attachment 58723
> 
> source: https://www.espazzola.ch/en/shop/


 Maybe I should have been more precise. the espazzola fits in the lsm group, but the clips won't hold it there.

So you have to press it activly upwards to use it. Tried to bend the clips more open, but no luck.

And yes, I have the machine and the espazzola.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@audiocore - Thank you for this. This type of feedback is really valuable for existing and prospective owners.

It's a shame Espazzola doesn't explicit say this on their website and that you had to find out by incurring a cost. 😞


----------



## audiocore (Jul 2, 2021)

audiocore said:


> Maybe I should have been more precise. the espazzola fits in the lsm group, but the clips won't hold it there.
> 
> So you have to press it activly upwards to use it. Tried to bend the clips more open, but no luck.
> 
> And yes, I have the machine and the espazzola.


 Well, I feel uncomfortable to quote myself&#8230;

&#8230; but furthermore I think, that the ACS's pump does not produce enough flow of water to clean the group gasket with the espazzola.

So actually I use a device like this:









And about the cost *MediumRoastSteam *mentioned: My brother has it's birthday on August 20. And he (sadly enough) has a sage. The espazzola will fit there&#8230;


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

audiocore said:


> So actually I use a device like this:


 How does this work please ?


----------



## audiocore (Jul 2, 2021)

You simply connect it to the steam wand&#8230;
Works fine.

But with the espazzola (on my GS3 and on my Pro-800) I clean the gasket after every session.
With this device maybe three times a week&#8230; depends.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Another good reasons to use the bplus 😀 no more often cleaning. Yes there will be some oils there (if you use a more developed coffee) but almost never particles are going behind the bplus or out of the basket.

There are people who pulled 100 shots on 58mm with the bplus and showed photos of the gasket and screw and it's almost nothing.

The downside, you have to clean the bplus, and if you pull more than 1-2 shots you are going to hate it, or buy more than 1.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Another good reasons to use the bplus


 An alternative steel mesh screen for the stock baskets, unless it is a double IMS basket. 😊


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I tried thinner screens and I did not like them in the end. The bplus takes away a lot of headspace (an important aspect for me) cause I grind coarser then and I have less deadspots on light coffee.

You can find bplus for either 53.4 or 53.7mm diameter for the stock baskets. For ims/cafeparts baskets you can use 55mm.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I didn't make them like that for the 58 mm dosing rings as the outer diameter of the blanks wasn't large enough. I'll have a look at whether it is feasible for the smaller LSM baskets. If it is, I be able to offer both versions.


 I'll send you a couple of links to the 58 mm version to give a better idea of the design, even if I'm sure it's pretty obvious for you already. 🙂


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Finally it's here!!!!!!!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> Finally it's here!!!!!!!
> 
> View attachment 58742


 Congrats 🥳


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

LEGLESS!!!!!

In the good old Australian way...

CONGRATULATIONS, rusty pie!


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Awesome! Congratulations.

Now there are two Down Under. Hopefully a third one won't be too far away.....


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Despite Covid, the couriers still haven't learnt to deliver properly!

Congratulations are in order @rusty pie.

Nice garden btw. 👌 If you don't mind my curiosity, may I know what that pinkish red plant is please ? Pretty it is. 😊

Look forward to your photos, videos and impressions.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

audiocore said:


>


 I like the idea of this. The bristle end looks similar to what I use to clean the surface of the gasket. Having steam at the same time to remove coffee debris could work better.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> I like the idea of this. The bristle end looks similar to what I use to clean the surface of the gasket. Having steam at the same time to remove coffee debris could work better.


 This is good. However, I would be a little careful with the frequent use of the steaming off the Evo to clean around the shower screen and gaskets for reasons of scaling potential (service boiler), even if we use filtered water like RO. We know there are a lot of discussions on this elsewhere. If I were to use a steam for an efficient cleaning, I will consider a hand-held steam cleaner.

https://ao.com/product/2635e-bissell-steam-shot-steam-cleaner-titanium-61755-62.aspx

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tower-Handheld-Capacity-Flexible-Microfiber/dp/B08497SYJF

Cheers


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Considering I'll be using this at weekend markets where steaming time will probably be 30mins to 50mins, or may be more, I don't think using this to clean will be much more detrimental than my normal use! Not the standard case I know


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There is another way to clean the shower screen, but I am hesitant to suggest it, especially as I can't try it at the moment. My Frankenstien machine is off the counter, as I am testing another machine/s and he needs some electrotherapy anyway.

I will outline the principle and then some brave soul can try it.



Empty group, measure amount of water in 5 seconds (use towel to depress water valve arm at back of group, not lever)


take portafilter and use rubber backflush disk, see how much it holds, then add 20ml (ish).


work out how many seconds you need to fill portafilter with backflush disk + the 20 ml


Add normal amount of Puly cafe to backflush disk


use towel (so you don't burn yourself) to depress water valve arm at back of group for the number of seconds you calculated at step 3


Wait...I dunno 5 minutes...perhaps 10


Make sure pressure gauge has no pressure showing (if it does, it's big towel time)


Unlock group (use tupperware catch tray)


Flush water through group with no portafilter loaded as in step 5 with towel


After first short flush, you can use lever to flush again.


If after reading this you understand why it should work...then have a go. If you don't...best not to try it.

P.S. Try this at your own risk


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Sounds like a bomb, ah sorry, a plan. 😆


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Despite Covid, the couriers still haven't learnt to deliver properly!
> 
> Congratulations are in order @rusty pie.
> 
> ...


 Thanks mate. To be honest, I'm not sure what plant that is, it was already here when I bought the house. I'll find out in the next couple of days and let you know.

By the way, I've found this nut (M3.5?) at the bottom of the crate, does anyone who has opened the machine have any idea if it belongs to the machine and where it might come from?

It's bedtime here in Oz so I've decided to postpone the commissioning to tomorrow.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@Denis S are you going to take one for the team ?💣

I would offer but delivery of mine is some time off 😀


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> @Denis S are you going to take one for the team ?💣
> 
> I would offer but delivery of mine is some time off 😀


 Video of your's or Denis's bravery covering the process would be awesome ! 😀


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@rusty pie Not sure...I didn't know they were using Nylock nuts in the Vesuvius Evo. Might well send a photo to Paolo and see what he says. It could have just dropped in there from somewhere else from other things they make....but I would ask.

He can then see if Eduardo knows where it has come from 🤣


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> He can then see if Eduardo knows where it has come from 🤣


 Could be one of Frankenstein's neck bolts 😂 Better check


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I will outline the principle and then some brave soul can try it.


 Interesting! This vs handheld steamer

- I think your principle is probably a weekly ritual, I guess.

- If the handheld steamer, it can be done either after a shot or the end of the day. I am thinking, one could also add a bit of Puly to the steamer for a weekly cleaning.

- May I know why + 20 ml please ?

- Normal amount of Puly : I would take this as a recommended dosage as per the bottle.

- Is the rubber back flush disk available for this group?

Thanks Dave.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee +20 ml to get solution up behind the shower screen but without any pressure.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

I used to use a handheld steamer (connected to the steam wand) on a previous machine, both for grouphead cleaning and basket hole cleaning (those 'goddamitt' times when you forget to knock the puck out and it bakes). It was messy though.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

So now that Batch 1 has been fully shipped and early Batch 2 on their way did anyone order their machine with the La Marzocco style steam wand? And if so, would you be so kind to take a picture?


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> So now that Batch 1 has been fully shipped and early Batch 2 on their way did anyone order their machine with the La Marzocco style steam wand? And if so, would you be so kind to take a picture?


 No real photo but here's a rendering from March, and I selected these arms based on it.

Hope it helps.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

SL01 said:


> No real photo but here's a rendering from March, and I selected these arms based on it.
> 
> Hope it helps.


 Your model, SL01?

I typically rip machine models from Whole Latte Love's 3d view to get an idea of machine sizes relative to each other and how mods will look. E.g when I was considering wooden handles for the Synchronika:


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

shimon said:


> Your model, SL01? ....


 No, the rendering came from an earlier post on the **************** thread which is now closed. I went back to the thread to look for the exact post and its date when it but was not able to find it flipping through the pages. Perhaps the link to it has since been removed.

I opted for black handles.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Are these the wands you want to see?

I love the appearance and the fact that they always stay out of the way!


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

danielpugh said:


> I asked Paolo, and he confirmed this yes.





> On 01/07/2021 at 16:36, hysaf said:
> 
> The only thing that I can complain about it(or actually the side that I chose to place it) is that it`s kind of in the way of the touchscreen.
> 
> ...


 I asked Paolo, and he confirmed this yes.

I asked ACS thru email for purchasing a replacement Vesuvius wand to fix the issue, was initially quoted a price and accepted but got a further email from their team saying:

"I have asked to the technician and unfortunately it's complicated to place the Vesuvius steam wand, so we suggest you to place the Vostok steam wand."

So if anyone is considering any of the higher arms( Minima or Vostok) on the right side, please keep in mind the interaction with the touchscreen and a burning steam wand.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

hysaf said:


> I have asked to the technician and unfortunately it's complicated to place the Vesuvius steam wand, so we suggest you to place the Vostok steam wand."


 @hysaf After your views on the minima steam wand on the right, I had sent a note to Paolo replacing the minima steam wand on the right with the Vesuvius steam wand on the right. He confirmed and accepted the changes.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

rusty pie said:


> Are these the wands you want to see?
> 
> I love the appearance and the fact that they always stay out of the way!
> 
> View attachment 58805


 Yes that's it, thank you. I emailed Paolo and went with that style steam wand on the left but with the tiny water spout on the right as I never use the hot water anyway and wouldn't want anything to interfere with the touchscreen.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Yes that's it, thank you. I emailed Paolo and went with that style steam wand on the left but with the tiny water spout on the right as I never use the hot water anyway and wouldn't want anything to interfere with the touchscreen.


 Good point Gus. I will do the same.

So, I found a good deal on a BDB locally and I'll pick it up in a week or so. It should keep me sane and after getting it I wouldn't mind any further delays in delivery 😫


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I also swapped to left long arm and right short tap water some time ago via mail.

I think you guys try to copy me:

Last week:

Then today:

And I almost got more machines.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I also swapped to left long arm and right short tap water some time ago via mail.
> 
> I think you guys try to copy me:
> 
> ...


 Bentwood looks badass 😎 I wonder if it's better than Lab Sweet for filter.


----------



## DanielH (Jul 18, 2021)

Hi there,

first of All - Thanks to All of you who are sharing insights about the new Machine here with us.

I am Currently using the force Tamper and bplus shower screen)) 58.5mm) on a decent espresso Machine.

Is someone else here using a leveling Tamper and the blus with the Leva? can you Let me know which baskets you are using and which size the bplus + Tamper Has?

Thanks in advance - really looking forward to receive the Machine in August!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I will be using the 55mm bplus with the 26mm height ims basket tamped with a bravo tamper set at 54.9 or 55mm (I have to local made the base) already got the tamper.

I will tamp on top of the bplus.


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Denis S said:


> I will be using the 55mm bplus with the 26mm height ims basket tamped with a bravo tamper set at 54.9 or 55mm (I have to local made the base) already got the tamper.
> 
> I will tamp on top of the bplus.


 I have the 26 IMS basket and 55 BPlus and the tapering basket walls means the screen gets wedged in when pushed far enough down into the basket for it to lock in - and it impedes locking in the portafilter as a result. You then have to knock very hard to get the puck plus jammed in screen out. I have found it awkward to use. Its not a dose issue as it happens even with an empty basket.


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

In fact I wonder if the 53.7 plus would be better


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@TomR what dose do you use with the 26mm height IMS basket? Could you maybe increase the dose by 0.5-1g so that the coffee sits much higher and then the diameter would open up a tiny bit? check with your fingers for the edge if there are any sort of irregularities into the bplus, that can also make it stuck.


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Denis S said:


> @TomR what dose do you use with the 26mm height IMS basket? Could you maybe increase the dose by 0.5-1g so that the coffee sits much higher and then the diameter would open up a tiny bit? check with your fingers for the edge if there are any sort of irregularities into the bplus, that can also make it stuck.


 I found that if you dose high enough (about 13g coffee dependent) so the 55 mm screen sits on top of the coffee without getting jammed against the basket sides, you cannot lock in the portafilter because the screen sits too high in the basket . To be fair to bplus they do not advertise the screen as usable with the LSM group


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

the screen itself seems well made

I do not have the tools to measure it accurately

this is the basket I am using, to be clear - B662TH26M

happy to loan the screen out to anyone in uk with an LSM that wants to try their luck


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

My issue is the same with the 55mm Bplus. Gets stuck half way down the tapering basket. Was going to file it down so it fits rather than have to mess with the dose.


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Stevebee said:


> My issue is the same with the 55mm Bplus. Gets stuck half way down the tapering basket. Was going to file it down so it fits rather than have to mess with the dose.


 Interesting idea. Just using a manusl file? Or a dremel? Do you think the mesh will fray rather than cleanly grinding away?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I started with just a file / wet and dry to see how easy it was. Didn't fray but will try a dremel once the machine arrives as need to see how much headroom once locked in.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I'm refreshing my mail every few hours, haha, in the hope that I will get an e-mail about the final payment.

Also about equipment, I had to fix a lagom (change bearings today) and do a proper alignment, brew burrs inside:

Need to take all out once the monster arrives, soon I guess.

Regarding mesh screens:

https://item.taobao.com/item.htm?ut_sk=1.WZAEKTWer%2BwDAKBoCTD3IcPp_21380790_1626606262658.Copy.1&id=643057611810&sourceType=item&price=5-100&origin_price=10-100&suid=13E435AE-A13E-4CD3-A062-648879852A7A&shareUniqueId=11336486209&un=2f3cccc7547776995aa10d17ec7f1e53&share_crt_v=1&spm=a2159r.13376460.0.0&sp_tk=N3o2WVhRcDdjT24=&cpp=1&shareurl=true&short_name=h.4BWXcMZ&bxsign=scdVF1Ivgylt31NtJaIbWXRCezg9T6Db10RzDMn2CR3KsK7kq6Ax8aQd9g15N1CiAYlf274nDsTS9LmKVDcU1VmG_jjnA0skXUeDYLpHSsw8NE&sm=8e28de&app=chrome


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> I'm refreshing my mail every few hours, haha, in the hope that I will get an e-mail about the final payment.
> 
> Also about equipment, I had to fix a lagom (change bearings today) and do a proper alignment, brew burrs inside:
> 
> ...


 Feeling both so close and yet so far ...


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

danielpugh said:


> Feeling both so close and yet so far ...


 Hahaha same feeling here, almost smelling that Evo Leva espresso... Let's hope Paolo and his amazing team are doing great and they can have they deserved holidays without any pending deliveries


----------



## DanielH (Jul 18, 2021)

TomR said:


> I have the 26 IMS basket and 55 BPlus and the tapering basket walls means the screen gets wedged in when pushed far enough down into the basket for it to lock in - and it impedes locking in the portafilter as a result.


 Hi Tom, Thanks for your Feedback. I'll Properly order the 53.7 Version to Check if this will work better. Regarding the Tamper - are you working with a 55mm base of would you advise to Use a smaller base as well? bravo Tamper for instance is also available in 55mm.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

55mm tampers wont fit the stock baskets.

53.7mm bplus is too small for the ims baskets. If the bplus is a bit small, and there is a gap at the edge. all the water will go there and you have a beautiful ring starting shot/bypass. So you will have to find the ballance.

This is why I was saying to dose 1g more into the IMS basket and use the 55 bplus instead of adding a smaller mesh screen.

Regarding headspace, if the ims 18g basket is 26mm tall, the headspace is normally 6-8mm. That means you have 18-20mm to fit 16-18g of coffee and a 1.7mm thick bplus screen.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Guys how sure are you of the shipping date? I'm going to buy a breville dual boiler just to hold my espresso needs til this machine arrives but if they are shipping soon then I won't get the BDB! If the shipping date is post August 27th then I'm definitely getting that BDB. 
I ordered cafelat robot's 58mm paper filters and I have the 55mm bPlus screen. Tho I have the ims baskets but I think I'll use the cheaper LF baskets I got from CafeParts. They are wide! I think they are 55.2m or something like that. I'm waiting for Aussie Aussie Aussie @Paolo5to share his findings, taste comparisons and temperature settings for different roast profiles.


----------



## TomR (Feb 2, 2020)

Denis S said:


> 55mm tampers wont fit the stock baskets.
> 
> 53.7mm bplus is too small for the ims baskets. If the bplus is a bit small, and there is a gap at the edge. all the water will go there and you have a beautiful ring starting shot/bypass. So you will have to find the ballance.
> 
> ...


 with larger doses - yes - then the screen will fit in the IMS basket nicely

but the basket then won't fit in the group head - that's what I was trying to explain.

The group sleeve / circlip / dispersion screen on the LSM group extends very far down into the basket


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

then you remove the clip/dispersion screen and pull shots w/o.

You dont need it if you use the bplus. This means things will remain cleaner up, and you only take care of the bplus.

And if you can't fit the 26mm ims basket with 18g dose+bplus then you fit the 32mm ims with 18g dose+bplus.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Guys how sure are you of the shipping date? I'm going to buy a breville dual boiler just to hold my espresso needs til this machine arrives but if they are shipping soon then I won't get the BDB! If the shipping date is post August 27th then I'm definitely getting that BDB.
> I ordered cafelat robot's 58mm paper filters and I have the 55mm bPlus screen. Tho I have the ims baskets but I think I'll use the cheaper LF baskets I got from CafeParts. They are wide! I think they are 55.2m or something like that. I'm waiting for Aussie Aussie Aussie @Paolo5to share his findings, taste comparisons and temperature settings for different roast profiles.


 No idea, but it must be within weeks from what @Paolo_Cortesehas said recently i.e. 3 coming from second batch and all by end of the month.

So I would hold off unless it's a bargain. That said I bought a gaggia classic to keep me going - i think it's a good idea to have a spare machine handy for while you are servicing etc - it takes the edge off the need to rush etc.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> No idea, but it must be within weeks from what @Paolo_Cortesehas said recently i.e. 3 coming from second batch and all by end of the month.
> 
> So I would hold off unless it's a bargain. That said I bought a gaggia classic to keep me going - i think it's a good idea to have a spare machine handy for while you are servicing etc - it takes the edge off the need to rush etc.


 BDB won't be me 2nd. I'm thinking OE-1 for 800$ it's cheap.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

MW11 said:


> BDB won't be me 2nd. I'm thinking OE-1 for 800$ it's cheap.


 What is the date for the OE-1 btw? From their facebook posts it looks like it will be a miracle if it's out by Christmas.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> What is the date for the OE-1 btw? From their facebook posts it looks like it will be a miracle if it's out by Christmas.


 I have no idea. I asked Ross about making a open boiler small spring/manual lever similar to CT2 but affordable and he was open to the idea. Maybe our Paolo can make that happen too 😈


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MW11 said:


> Maybe our Paolo can make that happen too 😈


 Let him get the Evos shipped first! 🤞


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

MW11 said:


> I have no idea. I asked Ross about making a open boiler small spring/manual lever similar to CT2 but affordable and he was open to the idea. Maybe our Paolo can make that happen too 😈


 a machine like that could make me very reach if i look at the price/features, simple to build, low problems and if the coffee is very bad probably the problem is your hand that it's not calibrate decently. Sometime i'm very shocked how the people can spent 2000 euro for a coffee machine like that and on the other side say that 3000 euro for a pressure profile machine it's too much. For sure there is a lot of job even to make project and build this machine but finally the parts are much lower and of course less time to build and test. a question for everybody, how much a machine like CT2 should cost in your mind? of course for someone that drink also milk based product should buy a steamer and how much should cost a good steamer for you?


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

a small update today or tomorrow my supplier should ship the display for the Vesuvius Evo that we are waiting in order to start the production of the second batch.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> a machine like that could make me very reach if i look at the price/features, simple to build, low problems and if the coffee is very bad probably the problem is your hand that it's not calibrate decently. Sometime i'm very shocked how the people can spent 2000 euro for a coffee machine like that and on the other side say that 3000 euro for a pressure profile machine it's too much. For sure there is a lot of job even to make project and build this machine but finally the parts are much lower and of course less time to build and test. a question for everybody, how much a machine like CT2 should cost in your mind? of course for someone that drink also milk based product should buy a steamer and how much should cost a good steamer for you?


 Good Morning Paolo. You are absolutely right about the CT2's price. It's ridiculously overpriced. I think a machine like that should cost less than 700€ and the steamer isn't that important in this case. People interested in such machine don't want milk based drinks but I could be wrong too. The Chinese steamer costs 340$ without shipping.

great news about the Leva. Thanks

I will cancel the idea of getting that cheap BDB


----------



## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> a machine like that could make me very reach if i look at the price/features, simple to build, low problems and if the coffee is very bad probably the problem is your hand that it's not calibrate decently. Sometime i'm very shocked how the people can spent 2000 euro for a coffee machine like that and on the other side say that 3000 euro for a pressure profile machine it's too much. For sure there is a lot of job even to make project and build this machine but finally the parts are much lower and of course less time to build and test. a question for everybody, how much a machine like CT2 should cost in your mind? of course for someone that drink also milk based product should buy a steamer and how much should cost a good steamer for you?


 Paolo, se fai una leva manuale me l'accatto a vol a vol!

I think saying "a machine like the CT2" is not quite the best way to ask. A Flair 58 is basically a machine like the CT2 (it's not an open boiler but it's not that much different). Yet, they are very different.

With the CT2 you are essentially buying a handcrafted piece of art which happens to be pretty good at making coffee. We can't judge it just by the spec sheet because it's going to lose every single comparison against any other machine.

Of course not everybody values the artistic side of it, the premium materials, the fact that it's handcrafted by a single person.

Then there is the counter space argument. How many people would love to have espresso but just can't fit a huge dual boiler?

Honestly a La Peppina or Caravel with more modern features would be a dream machine. Thermal stability of an open boiler, flexibility of a lever, simplicity without much electronics, small footprint.. It's really a compelling proposition. In my opinion, It would definitely butcher the second hand market for the La Pavoni.


----------



## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Good Morning Paolo. You are absolutely right about the CT2's price. It's ridiculously overpriced. I think a machine like that should cost less than 700€ and the steamer isn't that important in this case. People interested in such machine don't want milk based drinks but I could be wrong too. The Chinese steamer costs 340$ without shipping.
> 
> great news about the Leva. Thanks
> 
> I will cancel the idea of getting that cheap BDB


 Whilst I agree it's overpriced, I don't think 700 euros is the "right price". That's the price of a LP EP. Which is an industrial product with surely lesser quality materials, no thermal management at all, which would require quite a bit of modding if one wanted to increase repeatability and consistency.

Again as I said earlier, if you just want a machine that makes good coffee then there is really no point in looking at the CT2.

The real question is, the open boiler design can be very attractive for those who don't care about milk, why is the CT2 the only modern interpretation of products such as the La Peppina or Caravel?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Roko said:


> Whilst I agree it's overpriced, I don't think 700 euros is the "right price". That's the price of a LP EP. Which is an industrial product with surely lesser quality materials, no thermal management at all, which would require quite a bit of modding if one wanted to increase repeatability and consistency.
> 
> Again as I said earlier, if you just want a machine that makes good coffee then there is really no point in looking at the CT2.
> 
> The real question is, the open boiler design can be very attractive for those who don't care about milk, why is the CT2 the only modern interpretation of products such as the La Peppina or Caravel?


 Great point Roko! As simple as that machine but there are no options available !! 
I don't care that much about aesthetics! All I want is a great cup when I need one. Paolo can make it dual design spring lever peaks at 8 bars and you can take off the spring and make it manual like CT2. Then this will be a killer to all espresso machines. Open boilers means stable temperature and fast heat up time. 
yes 700€ is not fair tbh but I think a reasonably priced alternative will attract many people.


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Roko said:


> The real question is, the open boiler design can be very attractive for those who don't care about milk, why is the CT2 the only modern interpretation of products such as the La Peppina or Caravel?


 What about the Cafelat Robot?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

mathof said:


> What about the Cafelat Robot?


 I have a robot and I hate the routine. Heating everything including the piston is tiring 🥲 it's good for dark roasts only cause it looses heat dramatically during pre infusion.


----------



## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

mathof said:


> What about the Cafelat Robot?


 Well I'm not sure that's comparable to the La Peppina or CT2, that's an open boiler-less 😅

You might be aware of it, but the CT2 has a rather different design in that you have a boiler which is basically in contact with the grouphead, and once you lift the lever up a little bit, it lets water in.

The boiler does not have a PID but the heat cycle of the thermostat is fairly predictable and only ranges some +/- 2c, which is not little but to be honest is not all that much either and if you have the light going on/off to guide you. On the other hand, unlike some other designs, you have very good confidence that your grouphead will be at the same temperature, in a similar fashion to saturated groups (with the advantage that the water does not really have to travel far to get to your coffee puck).

The Robot is definitely a valid wee machine, but it's not quite the same in that it requires a bit more of a faffy routine (but I'd imagine it would lead to very similar results in the cup especially if one drinks medium dark stuff rather than the fruit juice that is all the rage these days).


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Let;s not talk about toys here, they are something different, items for zen people who dont care about espresso related things, but maybe about aspect, experience while pulling a shot, material colours and such, the silence of no noise when pulling a shot. All those things are +++ but they are not related to the result in the cup.

Everyone buys what they want, and prices their product how they want, and people value things differently. I have friends who would not buy the Vesuvius evo leva just because of it's size and weight, not because of it's price or features.

"The temperature on the Strietman brew-group fluctuates within a 3ºC differential, so your ideal brew-temperature will never be more than -1.5c/+1.5 off.".

Related to machines, if you want to get the best value, La peppina has a 1C off-set from boiler temp to group temp (with scace) and if you pid it you can get the water to the desired temp within 0.5C degrees. It heats in 6 mins, and you can always dump the water out after each session if you want. The problem with it, are the materials.

In my opinion manual levers are nice to explore, but they dont give you consistency, or will never do things better than a spring machine. My friend who has the Pavoni pimped and using it for more than 6 years already, got a Peppina last year, he was pulling better shots after just 3 days, with an average extraction of 24% while on the same coffee he was at 22% on Pavoni.


----------



## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

I would have a CT2 already if the group height allowed a bigger cup.
It is beautiful, compact and reportedly makes great coffee.
I think there are 5 in Australia and they NEVER come up for resale.

I love the Evo but don't want the size or complexity, I don't believe my palate is developed finely enough to appreciate the nuances it can provide. 
I have been following this build from the start and nearly ordered a number of times as it is sooo good.

I am waiting for the Odyssey to come out as it will hopefully fill that gap.
If Paolo can produce a simple lever with a stable group that out performs an LP then I will throw money at him.
I don't need/want milk.

As a guide in AUD.
Bianca =4,000 got one
CT-2 =3,000 I like
Odyssey = 2,000 (my guess with add ons) I want
Evo about 6,000 with current discounts.


----------



## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Pasturemaster said:


> I would have a CT2 already if the group height allowed a bigger cup.
> It is beautiful, compact and reportedly makes great coffee.
> I think there are 5 in Australia and they NEVER come up for resale.
> 
> ...


 There's definitely ways to overcome the limited headspace (72 or 73mm IIRC).

Surely if you want to make a Starbucks-like latte you are out of luck, but you can totally make larger drinks with it. I don't want to derail this thread further so I won't list them but feel free to hit me up in DM.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> a small update today or tomorrow my supplier should ship the display for the Vesuvius Evo that we are waiting in order to start the production of the second batch.


 That's great news! Does this mean you think you'll hit your end of July target for the second batch?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> That's great news! Does this mean you think you'll hit your end of July target for the second batch?


 🤞


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> 🤞


 After all that wait! Finally, it's coming home 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁥󠁮󠁧󠁿

sorry I meant 🇸🇦


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Awesome news Paolo, thanks.

Very exciting.......


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Finally, it's coming home ????????????????????????????
> 
> sorry I meant ????????










????


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> ????


 Muahahahaha


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Just to confirm that you can file / sand the 55mm BPlus down to perfectly fit the IMS baskets. By doing it gradually there is virtually zero gap between the Bplus and the portafilter sides. Comes out easily as well. The edge ends up smoother than before with no fraying.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

My local made SS 54.9mm tamper base for bravo is done and ready to be shipped.

I'm going to order the baskets now, and already have the 55mm bplus for more than 3 months.

The price of the base was only 25e, I already have the Bravo tamper in 58.5mm and did not want to buy a base from Brazil.

My workflow is grind, WDT with my tool, bplus on top and tamp on it. The screen clip and shower screen will be removed.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

As mentioned before, if you get IMS baskets the 55mm BPlus gets stuck less than half way into the basket, before the bed of coffee. Having no shower screen or circlip won't help. Easily solvable with some work to the Bplus though.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

excuse me, but I wont accept that the basket has less than half it's height filled with coffee, okay?

I am not putting 13mm of coffee height into a 26mm basket. I saw the grouphead, I know it has less headspace than other machines, but I do not think the group enters 10-13 mm into the basket, if so I will just use the 32mm basket. I am not filling down my bplus.

Can I ask you what is your dose? why would I want my bplus to go at half of the basket depth? that means I underdose, and I do not do that. I use 18-20g doses.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Not following the finer points of this discussion, and not having a viewpoint one way or the other, initially, I was slightly concerned that when dosing 18 gms into the stock basket, after tamping the level of the coffee bed barely reached the half full position. Then I thought about it, and rightly or wrongly presumed that the smaller diameter basket needs to be a lot deeper than the 58mm equivalent, and because it is deeper, the headroom is greater. The headroom worried me till I sat and thought about it.

For me, and I am as far removed from being a super taster as you could possibly get, since I pull the shot at a certain point, liquid still comes out for a period of time. When I disengage the pf, if there is still water lying on top of the coffee, then it tells me my grind is too tight.

So, I for one, am just sticking with the basket supplied!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

My dose, fyi, was 20g of a medium roast in the larger of the 2 IMS baskets. A light roast will probably be lowet. As dfk said, it barely reaches halfway. The machines will be with us soon so let us know how you get on with not reducing the size of the Bplus. Maybe my IMS or the Bplus are different from yours.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I understand now. The idea and why we use bplus since February is to reduce dramatically the headspace, to the point you get a really dry compact puck, this makes you also grind coarser specially on pump machines.

Sounds like the 32mm basket from ims is more like a 22-24g basket and the 20g is kinda low for it.

I do not want to have any headspace left in the setup, so no water remains at the top after the shot.

Decent espresso puck with bplus:

Second pic is gaggia classic with bplus:


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> My dose, fyi, was 20g of a medium roast in the larger of the 2 IMS baskets. A light roast will probably be lowet. As dfk said, it barely reaches halfway. The machines will be with us soon so let us know how you get on with not reducing the size of the Bplus. Maybe my IMS or the Bplus are different from yours.


 What mm would you estimate the right size for the ims baskets? I plan to use the robot's paper filters with them first. It might work 🤷🏻‍♂️ For the stock baskets I have a 54.7mm base which will work. Is there a difference in taste between the shots w/wo the bplus screen? The way I see it the bplus screen keeps the shower screen clean after the shot but needs more temperature right?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

This is from an old post on HB about dosing in the LSM group. The 32mm mentioned is the larger of the 2 IMS baskets

"The 32mm tall basket is my favorite because I can dose 18g dark roast without the screen touching the coffee bed which makes for clean and tidy use. I tried dosing 21g dark roast on the triple, however the sleeve and retainer clip touches the coffee bed which makes a little bit of a mess."

The photos from that post show the piston sleeve, circlip and shower screen well and it does seem that they extend well into the basket. I'm going to just use a coin to determine what dose is best for each of the basket when its here.

WRT the temp of the Bplus, I think they mentioned use a slightly higher temp but only for the 1st shot. After that no problem.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Denis S I know that de1 made you go through some head space trouble and you found solutions for that issue but I read on HB by a Bosco Sorrento owner that the thickest espressos he ever had were from LSM groups. He said that he couldn't get such results from his Bosco no matter what. I really hope this applies to our machine 🤞 I'm interested in your findings with different baskets/screens so make sure to share everything please.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Once I will get it I will report back.

And what grinder did the boys at home barista use? probably a really uneven conical thing back then.

Daker roast is fluffier, so you cant fit that much. If a grinder is good it makes fluffy coffee and when you tamp it its compressing a lot. I can fit 19g into the 14 g gaggia basket with a bplus on top with my coffee/grinders.

Yes a LSM plumbed in, not with a gear pump. bosco is 58mm with less pressure, and LSM is 53mm with taller puck coarser grind.

18g of coffee into the 14g basket. And the puck looks like the pictures above the one from decent:


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

The group extends into the basket by approximately 10mm. Removing the circlip and screen will not gain any additional headspace as the part that protrudes the furthest towards the puck is the sidewall.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Good test for the Evo today - ran some Kenyan light roast through at 1:2 ratio. First shot was 15 secs PI and complete in 42 secs. Opened the grind a quarter notch on the EK for second shot. 12 secs PI and completed in 32 secs.

Longer shot had more muted acidity but preferred the shorter shot. Bags of blackcurrant acidity but no sourness.

With some Columbian acidic beans finding quite short shots - 25 secs perfectly drinkable - loads of fruit pineapple acidity but no mouth puckering sourness. Couldn't get this on my previous lever - would have to go longer to tame the acidity and risk introducing bitter notes into the equation.

Seems like the 'gentle' 1.5 bar PI pressure is perfectly fine for lighter roasts.


----------



## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Denis S said:


> My local made SS 54.9mm tamper base for bravo is done and ready to be shipped.
> 
> I'm going to order the baskets now, and already have the 55mm bplus for more than 3 months.
> 
> ...


 Denis - have you tried other self-levelling tampers other than the Bravo, and why did you specifically pick the Bravo? I'm also on the lookout for one (49.5mm), and Bravo and Eazytamp are both available. I like the looks of the Bravo more, but would be great to know more about whether it's also better from a functional perspective.

Apologies if I keep derailing the thread, but I assume the info may be interesting to others who will want a self-levelling tamper for their ACS.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Bravo is easier to get in Europe and possibly cheaper. It is also well known within coffee enthusiasts.It was easy to make a tamper base for it and because I already had it why look for something else. It works and i'm happy with it. I also like massive/oversized stuff (levers, bentwood grinder, and other big things).

Force tamper is also good but limits the range force of tamping. It also creates a uneven compression from above down, because of how it tamps, like an uppercut to the puck.

I can't say anything about Eazytamp since I did not own or play with one.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Denis S said:


> Bravo is easier to get in Europe and possibly cheaper


 I managed to get my hands on a Bravo 58.5mm (second hand) recently and the whole concept/design is fantastic. Built like a tank too.

I really like the one I have.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The Bravo does feel good in the hand due to it's size and is well made. The Force gives a totally different experience as after the trigger it hammers the puck with the same force every time. Had an Eazytamp but didnt like it as it felt like a metal on metal grating during the tamp. Sold mine. The Decent and Levtamp are similar. Not calibrated but thats not that important tbh. For the LSM group I got a Bravo direct from Gilberto


----------



## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Right, time to hit Gilberto on IG then. 😅


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I've been dosing 18g in the stock double basket aiming for 2:1 ratio; if I grind to have a brewing time of 30 seconds (from when I lift the lever) the preinfusion only takes 2-3 seconds to start sweating, if I grind finer I can get preinfusion to last for around 12 seconds but then the brew time raises to 45-50 seconds; how this numbers sounds to the other lucky owners?

Also, I've tried to lower the preinfusion pressure to 1.5 bar max but if I do this the brewing pressure reaches barely 10 bar instead of the 10.5bar when PI was set at the factory to 2.5bar, is this normal?

by the way, when other users say that they have set PI to 1.5bar, does that mean the max pressure while the pump is running or the pressure the gauge settles after the pump stops running? There is 0.5/1 bar difference between these values in my machine.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rusty pie said:


> f I grind finer I can get preinfusion to last for around 12 seconds but then the brew time raises to 45-50 seconds; how this numbers sounds to the other lucky owners?


 My 'typical' PI times are in the region of 10-15 secs but am finding lower end suits my tastes buds best with lighter roasts. With some older beans, with PI running at 10 secs, completed shot can end 23-25 secs. Such shots should be sour but aren't - acidity is higher but tamed. EKs is a factor in this obviously.



rusty pie said:


> Also, I've tried to lower the preinfusion pressure to 1.5 bar max but if I do this the brewing pressure reaches barely 10 bar instead of the 10.5bar when PI was set at the factory to 2.5bar, is this normal?


 My Evo's PI bar pressure is as it came from the factory - around 1.5 bar. Depending on the bean and its post-roast date age, max spring bar pressure varies between 10-10.5 bar.



rusty pie said:


> by the way, when other users say that they have set PI to 1.5bar, does that mean the max pressure while the pump is running or the pressure the gauge settles after the pump stops running? There is 0.5/1 bar difference between these values in my machine.


 Pump should run until PI bar pressure setting is achieved and then cut in and out to maintain that pressure. At lower PI bar pressure settings, e.g. factory set 1.5 bar, my pump doesn't pulse once set bar pressure is achieved. Will behave differently if PI bar pressure is set higher - particularly at the highest setting where it may pulse to maintain the set pressure - noticeable if PI time is extended.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Good test for the Evo today - ran some Kenyan light roast through at 1:2 ratio. First shot was 15 secs PI and complete in 42 secs. Opened the grind a quarter notch on the EK for second shot. 12 secs PI and completed in 32 secs.
> 
> Longer shot had more muted acidity but preferred the shorter shot. Bags of blackcurrant acidity but no sourness.
> 
> ...


 Would be interested to know how fine the grind and the dose in/out? I'm trying similar experiments on my Vesuvius.. TIA


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Would be interested to know how fine the grind and the dose in/out? I'm trying similar experiments on my Vesuvius.. TIA


 EKs set at 1.0

Reference for grind size - check individual grains not clumps to give you an idea how fine the setting is.

Ground the Kenyan finer today - 18 sec PI and completed in 42 secs. Acidity was muted to the point where nothing really stood out. Drinkable, but prefer shots in the 25-30 sec range where fruit acidity is bright.

Portafilter shot shows how low an 18 grm dose sits in the stock basket.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

wow that IS low! Worth increasing the dose? (Same grind) ??


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Could, but prefer to keep as many variables constant as I can so I stick with 18grms. Will open the grind on the EKs to speed up extraction to my current preferred range of 25 secs as I like bright acidity which I get without sourness.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> wow that IS low! Worth increasing the dose? (Same grind) ??


 The dose is low in the basket...but why do you feel it matters?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> wow that IS low! Worth increasing the dose? (Same grind) ??


 The Evo Leva may share the Vesuvius case but the LSM group and E61 are not the same.

The LSM group extends into the basket, c10mm, so the key measurement will be space to shower screen, so the baskets for the LSM will appear at first glance lower but the dist. To screen may be the same


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> My 'typical' PI times are in the region of 10-15 secs but am finding lower end suits my tastes buds best with lighter roasts. With some older beans, with PI running at 10 secs, completed shot can end 23-25 secs. Such shots should be sour but aren't - acidity is higher but tamed. EKs is a factor in this obviously.
> 
> My Evo's PI bar pressure is as it came from the factory - around 1.5 bar. Depending on the bean and its post-roast date age, max spring bar pressure varies between 10-10.5 bar.
> 
> Pump should run until PI bar pressure setting is achieved and then cut in and out to maintain that pressure. At lower PI bar pressure settings, e.g. factory set 1.5 bar, my pump doesn't pulse once set bar pressure is achieved. Will behave differently if PI bar pressure is set higher - particularly at the highest setting where it may pulse to maintain the set pressure - noticeable if PI time is extended.


 If I set PI to 1.5bar, then brewing pressure hardly reaches 9.5 bars on mine. I wonder why such a big difference between machines. I too am dosing 18g.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rusty pie said:


> If I set PI to 1.5bar, then brewing pressure hardly reaches 9.5 bars on mine. I wonder why such a big difference between machines. I too am dosing 18g.


 Grind finer young man and make sure the group has filled (pump not pulsing)!

Video would be good!


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Grind finer young man and make sure the group has filled (pump not pulsing)!
> 
> Video would be good!


 I'm grinding to get a 2:1 shot in around 30 seconds, I'll take a video tomorrow, baby is sleeping now!

To get more than 10 bar PI needs to be set to at least 2.5bar.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rusty pie said:


> I'm grinding to get a 2:1 shot in around 30 seconds, I'll take a video tomorrow, baby is sleeping now!
> 
> To get more than 10 bar PI needs to be set to at least 2.5bar.


 How does the 30 sec shot taste? If you are pleased with the result - don't worry what spring lever max pressure is. 10+ bar pressure isn't the holy grail. If you grind finer than your current setting, you will extend shot length which will tone down acidity.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> How does the 30 sec shot taste? If you are pleased with the result - don't worry what spring lever max pressure is. 10+ bar pressure isn't the holy grail. If you grind finer than your current setting, you will extend shot length which will tone down acidity.


 I prefer the taste of shots with higher pressure (10.5). I'd like to experiment with longer PI at this pressure but I cannot do it because PI must be set to at least 2.5 and with that setting the puck starts sweating after 2-3 seconds when I grind to brew in 30-ish seconds.


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Then grind to brew in 40-ish seconds? I see you're trying to match the numbers from other people....if you're using the same grinder and the same coffee then you should get close, otherwise I wouldn't expect to be able to get things the same.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Rob1 said:


> Then grind to brew in 40-ish seconds? I see you're trying to match the numbers from other people....if you're using the same grinder and the same coffee then you should get close, otherwise I wouldn't expect to be able to get things the same.


 You are missing the point, I'm not trying to match anyone, I want to keep my current preferred recipe brewing at 10.5 bar but with longer preinfusion at lower pressure. The main design criteria for the machine was to have two springs in the group so that higher brewing pressure could be achieved, but mine doesn't do that unless I keep the PI pressure high as well.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Well, you have a problem then.

The group pressure profile is not linear, it applies more pressure at the beginning and less after.

So if you want 10.5 bar you need to get the spring to "catch" earlier. To do that, you need to have the pluck saturated and high pressure in the chamber earlier. For that to happen, you need higher PI pressure.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@rusty pie grind finer. If shot too slow, pre infuse longer. If pre in fusion is too long, increase PI pressure. Repeat until happy. The longer the pre infusion, the faster the shot runs after that.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all, I'm still waiting for my leva, but I'm thinking about buying my baskets soon. Which IMS are current owners using? I'm also wanting to mill my own tamper base, whats the right diameter for a basw for the IMS basket?


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@DavecUK



DavecUK said:


> The dose is low in the basket...but why do you feel it matters?


 I bow to your superior knowledge! I thought that there was an optimum amount of headroom between the top of the puck and the bottom of the showescreen?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

pinky said:


> Well, you have a problem then.
> 
> The group pressure profile is not linear, it applies more pressure at the beginning and less after.
> 
> So if you want 10.5 bar you need to get the spring to "catch" earlier. To do that, you need to have the pluck saturated and high pressure in the chamber earlier. For that to happen, you need higher PI pressure.


 That's not true...the theory is good, but in practice that's not what happens. I was set up at about 1.3 bar and I still managed to get 10 or 10.5 bar and my group was an old group with 6 or 7 years commercial use on it.



GrahamSPhillips said:


> @DavecUK
> 
> I bow to your superior knowledge! I thought that there was an optimum amount of headroom between the top of the puck and the bottom of the showescreen?


 I'm not sure when all that got invented...I only know I don't want the screen to touch the puck when I lock it in. That screen also dips down into the PF once it's locked in, so the headspace is not as great as you see.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rusty pie said:


> I want to keep my current preferred recipe brewing at 10.5 bar but with longer preinfusion at lower pressure.


 As I understand it and @DavecUK correct me if I am wrong, achieving the maximum spring bar pressure (around 10.5 bar) requires there to be sufficient resistance in the puck. Pretty sure if you dispense with any PI period, i.e. hit the dry puck with full spring lever pressure, you will achieve higher spring lever bar pressure irrespective of what PI bar pressure you set. Only caveat to the above is the degree of grind used.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Old adage of water being lazy is relevant. Once the puck is saturated, it swells and, as a consequence, offers less resistance to the force generated by the spring lever.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I would grind finer and try the 40-50s shots first. Levers shot times are OK to take longer but I wonder if this applies to our Leva (we all know, as a wise fake account once said on HB "a machine with a pump is not a lever" .. It's a bicycle 🚴). Seriously grind finer before changing the PI pressure and let us know.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MW11 said:


> I would grind finer and try the 40-50s shots first. Levers shot times are OK to take longer but I wonder if this applies to our Leva (we all know, as a wise fake account once said on HB "a machine with a pump is not a lever" .. It's a bicycle ????). Seriously grind finer before changing the PI pressure and let us know.












How to answer that one...Well, there's a manufacturer who sells Levers that can *only be plumbed*, and Levers that can *only be run from a tank that have a pump*....but not both. So the wise owl who made that funny comment might be right...

But what about a Lever like the Vesuvius Evo Leva, it can be, pumped, and it can be plumbed in....all without affecting preinfusion pressures...seems to be the best of both worlds...perhaps it's a Ferrari, it's certainly Italian. *That's without even mentioning all the other advanced stuff.*


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> How to answer that one...Well, there's a manufacturer who sells Levers that can *only be plumbed*, and Levers that can *only be run from a tank that have a pump*....but not both. So the wise owl who made that funny comment might be right...
> 
> But what about a Lever like the Vesuvius Evo Leva, it can be, pumped, and it can be plumbed in....all without affecting preinfusion pressures...seems to be the best of both worlds...perhaps it's a Ferrari, it's certainly Italian. *That's without even mentioning all the other advanced stuff.*


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I only know I don't want the screen to touch the puck when I lock it in.


 So, the puck screen








????


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

rusty pie said:


> You are missing the point, I'm not trying to match anyone, I want to keep my current preferred recipe brewing at 10.5 bar but with longer preinfusion at lower pressure. The main design criteria for the machine was to have two springs in the group so that higher brewing pressure could be achieved, but mine doesn't do that unless I keep the PI pressure high as well.


 I'm really not. Whether you're trying to match somebody else's numbers or numbers you just want to hit, you can't force a coffee to behave in a specific way. It's not the machine, it's the coffee (or possibly the grinder). Low pressure starts make pucks less resistant to pressure later on (which is why you aren't hitting max pressure). You might be able to achieve a low pressure pre-infusion and a 10.5 bar shot at suitable flow rate to deliver a 2:1 ratio in 30 seconds withe one coffee and grinder/grind setting but not be able to do it with another. If you've been able to achieve this on another machine, are the basket diameter and puck depth the same?

Regardless, if you want to hit your max pressure with extended pre-infusion you'll need to either grind finer or dose more.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> So, the puck screen
> 
> ????


 No, the shower screen ????


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Old adage of water being lazy is relevant. Once the puck is saturated, it swells and, as a consequence, offers less resistance to the force generated by the spring lever.


 For anyone interested in actual proof&#8230; that's on a Londinium. The concept is the same though.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

It would be interesting to these those shots repeated with a puck screen in place.. and also to compare various showerscreens!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

It would - have the suspicion swapping shower screens has little or no effect on extraction. Key variable is good barista technique to ensure dose is evenly distributed in the basket and evenly tamped.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all, this probably has been covered, but I just wanted to double-check. Is the IMS B662TH26M the right basket for Leva?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> Hey all, this probably has been covered, but I just wanted to double-check. Is the IMS B662TH26M the right basket for Leva?


 It's one of them, and there is also the deeper one b662th32m


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> It would be interesting to these those shots repeated with a puck screen in place.. and also to compare various showerscreens!


 Most of the expansion occurs when the shot finishes and pressure is released. If you spend a very long time wetting the puck without pressure build up logically the puck could expand more before it comes under pressure There is a little device I've seen that prevents or limits the puck expansion. It was like one of the puck screens but with a height adjustable top part that would screw up and down and sit against the shower screen.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> It's one of them, and there is also the deeper one b662th32m


 Ah, great. I think I would use 18g so that one should suffice. I saw that some people are saying that they can fit a 55 mm tamper in there? What do you think? I'm going to be manufacturing a new base for it.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah, great. I think I would use 18g so that one should suffice. I saw that some people are saying that they can fit a 55 mm tamper in there? What do you think? I'm going to be manufacturing a new base for it.


 I got both as they were cheap, along with the IMS 54.4 tamper. I think I'm going for a bravo tamper once the machine has arrived and I've settled on a combination that works well, so u can be sure it's the right size.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah, great. I think I would use 18g so that one should suffice. I saw that some people are saying that they can fit a 55 mm tamper in there? What do you think? I'm going to be manufacturing a new base for it.


 I would wait until the machine arrives tbh. The base tapers and the coffee will only fill about halfway so precise fit will be easier if you can try it yourself. I measure mine at 55.1 at the top but 54.75 about half way down


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

So I did a little test with the IMS B662TH26m 14/18g basket:

1. I measured 18g of my current espresso grind it to see how much room it would take before tamping. Photo 1 below.

2. The size of the heap shows that 18g is indeed the upper limit for this basket. Photo 2 and 3 below.

3. I use the 30-lb calibrated Espro 53mm tamper to see how far the puck would sit below the top of the basket rim. I measured about 4.7mm. Photo 4 and 5 below.

4. At the top of the 30-lb tamped puck and with the tips of the calipers inside the basket by 4.7mm, the diameter of the basket opening is 55.6mm. So if the tamp is harder / higher than 30 lbs, the diameter could be slightly smaller. The basket does appear to a very slight taper but at 55.6mm, there is some wiggle room already.

Obviously, grind size variation will lead to a different puck size. Hope this helps.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@SL01looking forward to hearing your thoughts on temperature settings. I like dark roasts too and will try the full roasts spectrum but it's nice to hear other owners' thoughts.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It's hard for me to believe that is espresso grind size, not that I dont trust you.

When I had the flair I would maybe grind that coarse, on the rest no really. A coarser grind compacts less, but if that is what 18g of coffee looks into the 26mm height basket, then there is no way you can add a bplus on it.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Before and after tamping, on the shitty grinder you see in the pictures.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi All,

There has been lots of conversation about tampers, and I've discovered finding ones that suit the nominal 54mm LSM baskets is a bit more challenging than with 58mm baskets.

I thought I'd make a suggestion, based on my very satisfying experience, to everyone who might similarly be looking. I suggest you look at Etsy.com. I purchased from a local Aussie maker on Etsy two custom tampers, hand made from jarrah timber and machined brass and stainless steel. Both custom sizes, 54.4mm for the standard Vesuvius baskets (hopefully they will be a good fit when I get my machine), and 54.8mm, which is a nice fit for my IMS baskets I have waiting. They measure exactly those sizes, the maker did them with a nice sharp lower edge, as per my request, and they look great and have a nice feel to them.

The cost - AU $50 each (~27 UKP, ~32 euro). Plus AU $9 shipping (within Australia).









So if you are hunting, have a look on Etsy to see if there are some local guys you can support, as well as getting exactly the right sized tamper.

Or send me a note if you are interested in contacting the Aussie guy I purchased from (I'm not sure if he ships overseas or not, but I'm sure he'll advise - he has been a delight to deal with).

Now I just need my new machine to actually use them. Hopefully soon.....

Dave


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

What beautiful tampers!

Thanks for alerting us to this, Elephantoplasty. I have just sent a message to Shai asking for him to make one for me too...like this one-


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Elephantoplastyamazing! The price is right too. Lots good stuff down under (I just bought a Tricolate dripper)


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I put 20g of espresso grind, medium roast, into the 2 IMS baskets. Had 9mm headroom on the 26 and 14mm on the 32. It came just below the ridge on the 26.

Looking at this, based on the fact the group extends into the basket 10mm, I'd say the 26 is good for doses up to 18g, with the 32 for larger doses than that.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Thank you @Stevebee this is really really helpful! Much appreciated. 🙏


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

The IMS tamper is a perfect fit on the stock ACS baskets, as close as a matched tamper/basket combo and much tighter than with the IMS basket itself. Go figure. The only downside is that it has a small radius on the edge, probably 0.5mm.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I read on the Izzo Alex Leva's thread on HB that people used the single baskets with the same grind size as the doubles!!. It was very interesting 🧐

Less volume = more shots during the day 😈


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> The ISM tamper is a perfect fit on the stock ACS baskets, as close as a matched tamper/basket combo and much tighter than with the IMS basket itself. Go figure. The only downside is that it has a small radius on the edge, probably 0.5mm.


 Would you say 54.7mm is the right size? Say yes and your dreams will come true


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Duplicate post.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUK Can you give us the benefit of your wisdom as a super taster, and tell us what combination of basket and tamper you use please (and why)


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

MW11 said:


> Would you say 54.7mm is the right size? Say yes and your dreams will come true


 The IMS tamper is 54.4 give or take 0.01. The ACS double basket is 54.6, the IMS 32 deep is 55.1-55.2


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MW11 said:


> Would you say 54.7mm is the right size? Say yes and your dreams will come true


 I've got a 54.7 Bravo tamper and thats good for the IMS baskets. You could probably go another 0.1mm but with the slight taper I'm happy with the Bravo. It is a slightly closer fit than the Force which is 54.0mm


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Based on what I have measured, I would say that 0.2mm is the ideal difference between tamper and basket for someone wanting a very close fit.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@rusty pie @Stevebee May I ask what grinder/grinders are you guys using? And how fine are you grinding? 
I have the cheap LF baskets from CafeParts I can't tell you why but I think those are perfect and will let me grind finer (the holes are bit bigger than the IMS baskets). What temperatures are you finding good for medium roasts? Dark?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Well, I tried 😩


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Why you try? those are useless. There are clear basket comparison on diaspora showing the E&B have a massive drop in EY (2-3%).


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Why you try? those are useless. There are clear basket comparison on diaspora showing the E&B have a massive drop in EY (2-3%).


 My friend who has p100 is obsessed with them. He loved them with his Synchronika. I've never tried them tbh.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @DavecUK Can you give us the benefit of your wisdom as a super taster, and tell us what combination of basket and tamper you use please (and why)


 I used the baskets and tamper supplied. I do think the tamper could be a much better fit, so the people going for slightly larger tampers...good move.

Why because I am a cheapskate and I have not really ever noticed a huge difference with baskets....apart from VST need a finer grind than IMS, standard baskets are all much the same...taste wise..I don't care.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The 55mm Bplus, as is, doesn't go far enough into the basket to sit on the 20g dose. After filing they sit perfectly on the tamper bed.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@Stevebee Are you noticing a difference in the cup ? And during the pull?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> The 55mm Bplus, as is, doesn't go far enough into the basket to sit on the 20g dose. After filing they sit perfectly on the tamper bed.
> 
> View attachment 58957


 Plenty of space on the LF 21g.

This is a 20.1g dose using light roasted Colombian (grinder helor)


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

After a fairly lengthy wait, Torr 54.4mm tampers arrived - one in Bahia the second in Palisander. Fit stock Evo baskets very tightly.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I would like to see more extraction videos please. I saw some channelling on @The Systemic Kidvideo on youtube.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

That is how shots on unimodal grinders look like, that is not necessarily channeling. Those grinders extract a lot fast and because of that you are left with more space in the puck for water to rush.

If you expect a porn looking slow pour shot from unimodal grinders (98mm, 64mm brew or multi-purpose) then you can wait for some years to happen.

That is how you extract a good tasting shot on those grinders. You are probably used with traditional grinders, or conicals.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> That is how shots on unimodal grinders look like, that is not necessarily channeling. Those grinders extract a lot fast and because of that you are left with more space in the puck for water to rush.
> 
> If you expect a porn looking slow pour shot from unimodal grinders (98mm, 64mm brew or multi-purpose) then you can wait for some years to happen.
> 
> That is how you extract a good tasting shot on those grinders. You are probably used with traditional grinders, or conicals.


 Yes my previous set up was Profitec Pro 800, Mignon Specialita and Sette 270wi. Now it'll be Evo Leva and Monolith Max (quite an upgrade and I'm excited to taste how different shots I'll be pulling).


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MW11 said:


> @rusty pie @Stevebee May I ask what grinder/grinders are you guys using? And how fine are you grinding?
> I have the cheap LF baskets from CafeParts I can't tell you why but I think those are perfect and will let me grind finer (the holes are bit bigger than the IMS baskets). What temperatures are you finding good for medium roasts? Dark?


 I'm using a Levercraft Ultra, 98mm HU, at 2.6, lock at zero. This was to see how high the grind went - my machine is part of batch 2 so here soon hopefully


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> I'm using a Levercraft Ultra, 98mm HU, at 2.6, lock at zero. This was to see how high the grind went - my machine is part of batch 2 so here soon hopefully


 Nice! I like the LeverCraft grinder. HU burrs probably shine at pour overs too.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Hu are espresso burrs and bad for pour over. Where you get your information mate?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Hu are espresso burrs and bad for pour over. Where you get your information mate?


 My friend who has a lagom p100. He likes it on both worlds 🤷🏻‍♂️ Taste is subjective if you like it then you like it. My monolith max SLM is horrible at pour overs while other owners reported that they are having the best pour overs of their lives from it (even better than Comandante!).


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The ranking of burrs for brewing for 98mm are :

cast mahlkonig pre 2015> SSP 98mm Low unifomity> ssp pre 2015 clone> mahlkong post 2015 burr> ssp 98mm high uniformity.

Your friend must be excited for the new grinder, but if he will compare the burrs he will find the 98mm hu behind versus others.

Also if you have a max with suriken, why are you looking for a new grinder then? lab sweet (I consider it a weak grinder) and eg1?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> The ranking of burrs for brewing for 98mm are :
> 
> cast mahlkonig pre 2015> SSP 98mm Low unifomity> ssp pre 2015 clone> mahlkong post 2015 burr> ssp 98mm high uniformity.
> 
> ...


 I want another grinder for brewing only (Max isn't for brewing 🙅🏻‍♂️). I like the lab sweet looks even though I haven't tried it yet but I've seen a lot using it like the April Roasters' Barista Champion (forgot his name). Should I get the Ultra grinder instead? It's cheaper with multiple choices. My brother is chiming in with the brewing grinder😂 he likes pour overs a lot.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> It's hard for me to believe that is espresso grind size, not that I dont trust you...


 No trust required - the grind was set for my former machine, a La Spaz with a dying pump. I do expect to go much finer when the Evo arrives.

Not only will the grind size, weight, temperature and pressure have to be determined per roast but also which basket tastes best to us - stock ACS, IMS or VST. The right tamper to fit the chosen basket will lead to another important test not often mentioned: tamp weight and consistency.

Only with the correct tamper diameter can the correct tamp weight / depth be determined. Below are a couple of photos of the setup that helps me find the correct weight / pressure. The reading is in compressed puck depth in thousandth's of an inch.

Unfortunately, this device is banned by the wife for daily use or even be left visible on the counter so a custom Espro or some other calibrated tamper will likely have to be ordered.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The Ultra excels at espresso I agree. With pour over you get great clarity but at the expense of a more balanced cup. Can see why this wouldn't be to everyone's taste but some love this. I found that seasoning made a big difference with regards pourover. I've now put well over 20kg through and at pour over it has definately improved. How it compares to other 98mm burrs sets I've no idea as the only other set I have, which I've yet to try in the Ultra, is the pre 2015 EK Turkish


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

SL01 said:


> No trust required - the grind was set for my former machine, a La Spaz with a dying pump. I do expect to go much finer when the Evo arrives.
> 
> Not only will the grind size, weight, temperature and pressure have to be determined per roast but also which basket tastes best to us - stock ACS, IMS or VST. The right tamper to fit the chosen basket will lead to another important test not often mentioned: tamp weight and consistency.
> 
> ...


 I can see why it was banned by the wife - it's not a thing of beauty! I don't want to know how slow your prep will be with that either


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> The Ultra excels at espresso I agree. With pour over you get great clarity but at the expense of a more balanced cup. Can see why this wouldn't be to everyone's taste but some love this. I found that seasoning made a big difference with regards pourover. I've now put well over 20kg through and at pour over it has definately improved. How it compares to other 98mm burrs sets I've no idea as the only other set I have, which I've yet to try in the Ultra, is the pre 2015 EK Turkish


 My friends id on HB is Codes123. He's the one sharing videos on the Lagom P100 thread. He seasoned it with over 65+ kgs. I think those big SSP burrs need 100kg to be fully broken in. Enjoy


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

65kg! I know Eric from LeverCraft did some particle analysis at various stages of the seasoning process. Big change 0 - 3kg, much less between 3kg and 5kg in comparison, but a significant change again from 5kg to 10kg. Didn't mention past that. This change in performance was most significant with regards pour over apparently. Actually I must have put nearer 50kg through when I add it up.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> I can see why it was banned by the wife - it's not a thing of beauty! I don't want to know how slow your prep will be with that either


 Does make for easy consistency. Just pull until the desired number is reached and presto. What - you don't like its looks? Hard to believe.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

MW11 said:


> ...over 65+ kgs....


 That's something. I should start adding to my pile.


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Denis S said:


> There are clear basket comparison on diaspora showing the E&B have a massive drop in EY (2-3%).


 I have found the same with my combination of a 2014 L1 and a Monolith Flat with Shuriken burrs. The taste is correspondingly pallid. But others report great results. I wonder what they are doing differently.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

There are people who want a simple way of doing espresso and I can respect and understand that.

This is why you see baskets like E&B superfine or HQ14. These baskets have a much narrow total holed area at the bottom, making you grind much coarser and adding a much higher resistance to the puck.

If the most open baskets are VST/Pullman followed by IMS and the further away from them are pressurized baskets that you dont need a grinder with the HQ14 and E&B superfine are baskets are in between and they let you grind coarser and at the same time user smaller doses (some people are afraid to use higher doses cause coffee is expensive or they can't drink many shots per day).

It's just a different view on what you know espresso should taste like and what you like. The same thing goes with Reneka microsieve that I had, same black ring with under extraction at the edge.

VST baskets are good, but need really good puck prep, prepared with a lot of attention to everything, the grinder has to be dialed in spot in meaning you dump 2-3 shots to get there. Some people dont want this and they drink almost all shots (99% of them). This is why grinders that are easy to dial in are successful and this is why you see baskets like the ones above being favored by many. Nothing against them, just a different approach to making espresso.

As for tamping, I find the bravo to be really consistent in tamping pressure, I tamp with 12-14kgf on top of the bplus.

And on-topic, I can't wait to get the machine and play with it. I am preparing some coffee meetings as soon as it lands, there will be many many grinders and a lot of good beans.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I feel this is the calm before the storm, right?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> I feel this is the calm before the storm, right?


 That or holidays starting in Italy/ACS in which case maybe the Calm before the calm 😉


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Then the mail from Paolo asking if we are at home in August makes no sence, or? 😆

Let me hope.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

It's not a lot of time to get them made, balance paid, and shipped but like everyone else I live in hope


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Denis S said:


> I feel this is the calm before the storm, right?


 The calm before the Vesuvius (Evo Leva) eruption... 😂

Every time I receive an email...


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Well... Let's hope ACS doesn't call a future machine Pompeii or Herculean.... 💥


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Well... Let's hope ACS doesn't call a future machine Pompeii or Herculean.... 💥


 Izzo has beaten him to one of those &#8230;😁


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

All Black hopefully 🤲🏻


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

shimon said:


> Norvin's piston removal tool.
> 
> 1: Steevebee
> 
> ...


 I have finished making the 10 seal tools. AIl have been tested for fit on the piston from my machine. I haven't had the opportunity to test one on a really stuck piston yet, I'd love to hear from anyone in future that has.









I'll contact those on this list shortly to make arrangements if still interested.

I now have material to make more and will post an ad in the classifieds when I have finished another batch. Price will be £35 plus £4.30 for Hermes delivery in the UK and delivery at whatever it costs to everywhere else.

I have part finished some dosing rings, I could not make them with a lip that fits over the outside of the basket as the outside diameter is too small, I have tested them for fit with the standard double basket. I can offer them to anyone on this list for an extra £25 with a seal tool which takes into account the savings in postage. There may be a slight delay for me to finish them. Here is a picture of one I made earlier. The stuff that I make will never look like CNC machined goods, I prefer to think of it as hand made, artisinal 😄.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Great stuff Les - Evo owners are in your debt.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Can you put me down for an additional dosing ring please - will PM you for payment details.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@NorvinDosing ring for me too


----------



## Ciprian75 (Jul 4, 2021)

I'm curios about the weight of the dosing ring, I allready have one but it's a little heavy


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Ciprian75 said:


> I'm curios about the weight of the dosing ring, I allready have one but it's a little heavy


 The dosing ring pictured is just under 55 gram.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I have tested them for fit with the standard double basket.


 If you meant the stock double basket, which comes with the machine, *one for me* please. Thx


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

After I get the machine, I will design a dosing ring with magnets that can be 3d printed locally. I still suggest you to buy the metal dosing ring made by Norvin because it's made out of better materials. But for those who wont get one from him I will offer an alternative.

Made this fast for a gaggia, initially made it with 4 magnets, but as you can see 2 magnets are more than enough. The magnets are 6mm wide x3mm height.

https://streamable.com/ktkmm1


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I have finished making the 10 seal tools. AIl have been tested for fit on the piston from my machine. I haven't had the opportunity to test one on a really stuck piston yet, I'd love to hear from anyone in future that has.
> 
> View attachment 58986
> 
> ...


 @NorvinThank you so much for your hard work and the good news! Yes, I am in for a removal tool as well as a dosing ring.

On the dosing ring - if you recall from my previous request, it would be great if the dosing ring can be taller so it would fit nicely between the bottom of my HG-1 funnel and the top of the basket on the bottomless portafilter. In addition, I would also like to take a "regular" one also just in case I switch to another grinder or use one of the other two portafilters. Please let me know the total including Royal Mail postage and I can send you a PayPal Friends and Family payment to your PayPal ID.

Thanks again!


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

SL01 said:


> Thank you so much for your hard work and the good news! Yes, I am in for a removal tool as well as a dosing ring.
> 
> On the dosing ring - if you recall from my previous request, it would be great if the dosing ring can be taller so it would fit nicely between the bottom of my HG-1 funnel and the top of the basket on the bottomless portafilter. In addition, I would also like to take a "regular" one also just in case I switch to another grinder or use one of the other two portafilters. Please let me know the total including Royal Mail postage and I can send you a PayPal Friends and Family payment to your PayPal ID.
> 
> Thanks again!


 Yes, I can do that. PM me the height of the ring that you need, i.e measure the distance between the rim of the basket and the bottom of the outlet of the grinder. Do you want me to make an adaptor ring too, as discussed before?

I'll be messaging the ten people soon, perhaps we can discuss individual requirements there rather than clog this thread up?


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Yes, I can do that. PM me the height of the ring that you need, i.e measure the distance between the rim of the basket and the bottom of the outlet of the grinder. Do you want me to make an adaptor ring too, as discussed before?
> 
> I'll be messaging the ten people soon, perhaps we can discuss individual requirements there rather than clog this thread up?


 Hi,

I tried sending a PM before but got this: "@norvin cannot receive messages." Would you mind checking your settings?


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

SL01 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I tried sending a PM before but got this: "@norvin cannot receive messages." Would you mind checking your settings?


 Funny, I have received some from other people today.

I've sent you a pm, try responding to that


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Funny, I have received some from other people today.
> 
> I've sent you a pm, try responding to that


 I just did. Hope you got it!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

🎶


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MW11 said:


> 🎶
> 
> View attachment 59008


 Patience my friend. With the August shutdown almost upon us it's likely to take it's holiday there for another month 😭


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> Patience my friend. With the August shutdown almost upon us it's likely to take it's holiday there for another month ????


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Norvin said:


> Yes, I can do that. PM me the height of the ring that you need, i.e measure the distance between the rim of the basket and the bottom of the outlet of the grinder. Do you want me to make an adaptor ring too, as discussed before?
> 
> I'll be messaging the ten people soon, perhaps we can discuss individual requirements there rather than clog this thread up?


 I can't remember if I made it into the list for the first ten or not, but I'd like one of the piston tools if possible


----------



## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Another Leva has landed :classic_biggrin:


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@adamk Welcome.......10 becomes 11......the family is growing


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

adamk said:


> Another Leva has landed :classic_biggrin:
> 
> View attachment 59036


 Nice to see one with the long arms, as I've got the same soon (please!)


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

adamk said:


> Another Leva has landed :classic_biggrin:
> 
> View attachment 59036


 Congratulations!! Enjoy!!

Waiting this exact setup! Hope it comes soon!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I'd like to think that the last few deliveries mean the floodgates will open but I'm assuming not. With that in mind I've ordered a different lever espresso machine, due to be delivered Monday, just for fun.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Stevebee said:


> With that in mind I've ordered a different lever espresso machine


 Do tell! Please don't keep us hanging over the weekend! 😂😂😂😂😂


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Well, my decision wasn't so much a rollercoaster more of a see saw


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

adamk said:


> Another Leva has landed :classic_biggrin:
> 
> View attachment 59036


 Congrats and enjoy. I changed my mind about wands and I hope it's not too late. Now I want the original Vesuvius wands. I can see @The Systemic Kid 's point now.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I just wanted to give a shoutout to member Elephantoplasty for putting me/us onto Shai from Coffee Obsession in Australia (available on Etsy).

*Thanks Elephantoplasty!*

I ordered the same style of tamper as Elephantoplasty (but custom-sized to my needs) on Monday and it has just been delivered now (Friday)...and it is beautiful...great to see that craftspeople still exist. The tamper has some serious heft too (407 gms).

A headsup...If you are interested in buying one from him online, just make contact with Shai before paying for anything. He got back to me via the Etsy communication system (where you can have an interactive chat). He has options and suggestions that may sway your buying choice/s.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> Well, my decision wasn't so much a rollercoaster more of a see saw


 You had me intrigued by this - off on your travels - nomad? Looks pretty cool to me!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

danielpugh said:


> You had me intrigued by this - off on your travels - nomad? Looks pretty cool to me!


 Got it at £180 delivered - was just intrigued - like the temp management side of thing and it looks fun to use. Had a Flair (now sold) and also have a Robot so like the manual side of things as I camp as well


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Stevebee said:


> Got it at £180 delivered - was just intrigued - like the temp management side of thing and it looks fun to use. Had a Flair (now sold) and also have a Robot so like the manual side of things as I camp as well


 Let us know how you get on. I always thought of one of those for the office.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Well, Monday is 2nd August, so if ACS is having a summer shutdown like most of Italy which I'm assuming they are, looks like it might be September for batch 2 delivery. I'm getting mentally prepared 😬


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think ACS stay open for one more week, so don't pack up until 9th August.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I think ACS stay open for one more week, so don't pack up until 9th August.


 😀


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I think he'll ship all of batch 2 units before 9th August. I hope he got my email tho (no reply yet).


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I'm first on the list with 10 March payment, and the closest to Italy (Vienna). So hope to get a mail this coming week.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

You are being a very patient bunch... All these electronic components delays in the supply chain must be so frustrating for Paolo and ACS as well as the clients. It must be quite annoying to have the machine technically assembled and ready to be tested, and the only thing that's missing is the part that controls the machine.

So, I take my hat off to you lot, and I have my fingers crossed that you shall hear good news next week. 🤞

Fun quote:

A friend from Naples once told me:

"Do you know what's the definition of "Un attimo"? ("a moment", in Italian). "It's the time interval between the traffic light going from red to green, and the person in the car behind you beeping the horn and yelling at you." 🙂

Have a good weekend!


----------



## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You are being a very patient bunch... All these electronic components delays in the supply chain must be so frustrating for Paolo and ACS as well as the clients. It must be quite annoying to have the machine technically assembled and ready to be tested, and the only thing that's missing is the part that controls the machine.
> 
> So, I take my hat off to you lot, and I have my fingers crossed that you shall hear good news next week. 🤞
> 
> ...


 Pedant fact of the day:
One definition of "moment" is a medieval unit of time originating with sundials. It was variable but averaged at around 90 seconds. As a child, the family 'John Bull' dictionary defined a moment as one and three-quarter minutes.
Have a good weekend!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You are being a very patient bunch... All these electronic components delays in the supply chain must be so frustrating for Paolo and ACS as well as the clients. It must be quite annoying to have the machine technically assembled and ready to be tested, and the only thing that's missing is the part that controls the machine.
> 
> So, I take my hat off to you lot, and I have my fingers crossed that you shall hear good news next week. 🤞
> 
> ...


 I don't mind the waiting especially if they are rushing it and not testing the machines properly (September is fine). However, I will not send any payment until I see pictures of all the things I asked for first.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Uh oh, someone is cocky out of the sudden. If you dont trust them it means you should not be here.

They posted a picture with the grouphead on IG today, so they are working on it.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Uh oh, someone is cocky out of the sudden. If you dont trust them it means you should not be here.
> 
> They posted a picture with the grouphead on IG today, so they are working on it.


 Which IG? Their ACS one feels like it's really out of date.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Clearly I wasn't talking to you nor you represent them.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

That's quite a lot of group head manometers to mount. Not holding breath, but getting closer


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

This is the story I was talking about. I do not know if they work today, it was Saturday. If yes it means they try to push out some machines before the vacation/holidays.

https://www.instagram.com/stories/acs__official/2629879378180299791/


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I cannot be certain, but I think, as per the first batch the machines were pretty much built up and waiting for one key component. ACS are working next week, so let us all light a candle fo those waiting


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

We are working also today&#8230;..


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> We are working also today&#8230;..


 ❤❤❤


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Love your commitment Paolo!

Make sure you have a great break when you eventually get a chance to get away.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

A note of caution when buying parts to closely fit baskets.

I have measured the spigot on one of my dosing rings that is a light push fit into the standard double basket (it stays in place when turned upside down), the outside diameter measures 54.58mm. Not all of the rings are this close a fit, most are looser.

One member has asked for a special ring to closely fit his IMS basket (B662Th26M), he has measured it to be 54.4mm internal diameter. So the ring, and presumably a tamper, that fits the standard basket closely may not fit this basket as it may be too big.

Another member has asked for a special to fit his IMS basket closely. He has measured his as 54.9mm. So the ring made to fit the standard basket closely will fit, but a ring made to fit his IMS basket closely may not fit the standard basket.

It looks like there may be variation of diameters between different IMS models or possibly between different baskets? It may well be that a little looseness of fit may not be a bad thing.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Norvin said:


> A note of caution when buying parts to closely fit baskets.
> 
> I have measured the spigot on one of my dosing rings that is a light push fit into the standard double basket (it stays in place when turned upside down), the outside diameter measures 54.58mm. Not all of the rings are this close a fit, most are looser.
> 
> ...


 I imagine loosenes + magnets would be ideal.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Or the people measuring the baskets measure it in different points? IMS baskets have no problem taking 55mm tampers, as already stated few pages back.

If you measure the basket at the top diameter it will be bigger than 5-10mm to the interior.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Any opinions?

this is the one most people get and fits LSM:

https://www.imsfiltri.com/filtri/b662th26m/

I found this seems to fit? it's 1.5mm taller than the one above:

https://www.amazon.de/-/en/Competition-Precision-Filter-Spaziale-espresso/dp/B07MN5T27X/ref=sr_1_21?dchild=1&keywords=IMS&qid=1628020317&sr=8-21

And then you have this one, people say it fits 20g for breville:
https://www.amazon.de/Precision-Compatible-Breville-Espresso-BES810BSS/dp/B092SVTY2T/ref=sr_1_28_sspa?

But I have no idea if a 54.9mm tamper or a 55mm bplus fits into them.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi Denis,

I have measured both of my IMS baskets. I measured using my calipers at about 10mm from the top, and at about 5mm.

They measure:

*Basket ~10mm from top ~5mm from top*

IMS 20-22g B662TH32M  55.1mm 55.2mm
IMS 14-18g B662TH26M 55.1mm 55.2mm

My 54.8mm diameter tamper fits readily, without being excessively tight. I avoid overly tight tampers, as unless they are removed very slowly, they can suck the puck up as you remove them and break the seal between the edge of the puck and the basket wall.

Supposedly these baskets fit the LSM group - I don't have mine yet to try.....


----------



## DrH (Aug 4, 2020)

That piston tool looks excellent. Now that everyone has had time to consider how piston removal and lubrication is done, is there a summary anywhere? Is the piston usually "stuck" such that it requires a lot of force to get it off that first time? Since I won't have much local support in the US, this is probably my primary worry if I were to order the machine- one day I remove the spring for cleaning and then I 1) can't get it back into the group and 2) can't remove the piston head anyway. Maybe I'm overthinking it?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Piston removal tool arrived today. Many thanks to @Norvin












​


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Nine of the first batch of piston tools have been posted now, I have nearly finished a second batch of ten piston tools. When I am ready I'll advertise them in the classified section. I suppose that I'm hoping for some feedback on the first batch but that's probably optimistic as some haven't even got their machines yet.

The piston on my machine was easy to loosen when I tried soon after getting it. It will be worthwhile removing the piston soon after getting the machine and applying some Molykote 111 or similar and perhaps some PTFE tape to prevent the piston from seizing onto the stud. It is very easy to remove, the four acorn nuts are not tight and do not need to be. The top assembly lifts out and goes back in very easily, I have done it a few times now to test the fit of the piston tools.

I bought a used 58mm Motta tamper from eBay and turned it down to fit the standard double basket.









It is a nice fit with not much wiggle room. For those interested the new measurement is 54.40mm. The walnut handle is a nice match for the ACS handles on the machine.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Does the EVO have boiler max probes, or fills for a set time upon becoming low?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

shimon said:


> Does the EVO have boiler max probes, or fills for a set time upon becoming low?


 The service boiler has a level probe. It fills when the fill probe is uncovered until covered, then for a preset time *after the fill probe is covered *..no max probe


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Following on from my last post, an observation on tamper fit. A very close fit may not necessarily be a good thing. Unless you keep the tamper carefully lined up to the bore in the basket, it can catch on the way in and on the way out. But another issue is that the suction created on removing the tamper pulls the puck up with it, it is disconcerting to see the puck fall back down the basket once you pull the tamper out. Has anyone else experienced that? Is it detrimental?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin It's not fantastic to see the puck lift up and down. I do prefer the tamper to have a similar fit to underpants....not too tight with a little wriggle room.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> A very close fit may not necessarily be a good thing.


 What size do you recommend to be a good fit - 54.30, 54.35? Thx


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> What size do you recommend to be a good fit - 54.30, 54.35? Thx


 I don't know at the moment, I'll probably shave a little off and see how that goes.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I don't know at the moment, I'll probably shave a little off and see how that goes.


 Please keep us posted. Thx


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Is anyone familiar with tuning parameters of PID controllers? The brew temperature on my Evo overshoots the set temperature by a wide margin (around 4-5 c) and gets in a constant oscillation so I'm going to try and adjust the pid values; I have an academic understanding of PID controls but it would be great to have some help from someone who has practical experience of the applications of PID controls to coffee machines, to save me wasting time in trial and error adjustments in the wrong direction.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Every machine has an off-set doesnt matter if we speak of Decent, La marzocco, Dalla corte, Lelit Bianca and others.

How do you know the machine has a 4-5C overshoot?

You try to pull at 92C and you get a 96-97C water at the coffee bed? how you came to this conclusion?

When calibrating everything, you must take in considerations all the extremes, such as some people wont heat the machine for more than 20-25 minutes on average, before they pull 1 shot and then turn if off, while others will schedule the machine to be turned on at 6 am and turned off at 6 pm, so these two will have a really different temperature output. Not to mention temp is sensitive to humidity and ambiental temp in your house.

In the Leva for the brew coffee temp water, you have 2 direct variables, the brew boiler temp, and the group heater.

If you came to the conclusion the water temp is too high, you can simply take 1-2C from both and try again. Or you can just take 4C of the group heater and see what happens then. If you say you want to set 92 C on grouphead and 92 C on brew boiler, and have 92C water at the coffee bed, that is not going to happen, unless you do extended scace testing, with controlled humidity and ambiental temp and recalibrate those pid parameters often.

Temperature stability is a myth and not important, and temperature as a parameter is something that's different from machine to machine. xx degree C on A wont be XX degree C on B, you have to adjust based on taste.

88C brew temp on my Decent is 92C brew temp on most other machines (E61 hx with temp sensor at the group). The 88C on my decent is different if I'm working with coffee setup mode on (heaters at max power in idle) or I'm in home setup (energy saving with a much lower idle temp).

So are you asking for a way to show the temp you think you have at the brew head on the pid? so basically an off-set? Cause if you say there is an overshoot by 4C and Dave is pulling coffee at 98C on brew boiler, he is drinking coffee at 102 C, and I dont believe that.

Another example related to temp that it comes now into my mind is coffee roasting. Each roasting machine is different and will have/report different temperatures. On machine A first crack can be in the 195-200C range, while on machine B first crack can be for the same bean in the 205-210C range.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Every machine has an off-set doesnt matter if we speak of Decent, La marzocco, Dalla corte, Lelit Bianca and others.
> 
> How do you know the machine has a 4-5C overshoot?
> 
> ...


 What a total waste of virtual ink this lecture is. I know that there is OVERSHOOT because if I set the brew boiler at 98 the temperature shown on the display constantly cycles between 98 and 103, nothing to do with temperature OFFSET between boiler and group.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

rusty pie said:


> Is anyone familiar with tuning parameters of PID controllers? *The brew temperature on my Evo overshoots the set temperature by a wide margin (around 4-5 c) and gets in a constant oscillation so I'm going to try and adjust the pid values*; I have an academic understanding of PID controls but it would be great to have some help from someone who has practical experience of the applications of PID controls to coffee machines, to save me wasting time in trial and error adjustments in the wrong direction.


 How about you be more polite? and learn how to express yourself? What do you understand from the above statement?


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I'm not being impolite, I'm stating the facts. You have wasted time in writing a very wordy and condescending response to a very specific question you have misinterpreted.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

People normally care about the temperature of the water hitting the coffee bed. or at least in 2021 that is how we speak about coffee extraction. In 2000 maybe we spoke about brew boiler temps, but now it doesn't matter as it's just a number displayed on the screen that you adjust up and down.

Try a pid calibration, and note down the the values from the PID and lower down the I derivate. You will have less oscillations but a slower response.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@rusty pieOk this is worrying! Let us know what happens and how to fix this. I would email @Paolo_Cortese and ask about it


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Denis S said:


> People normally care about the temperature of the water hitting the coffee bed. or at least in 2021 that is how we speak about coffee extraction. In 2000 maybe we spoke about brew boiler temps, but now it doesn't matter as it's just a number displayed on the screen that you adjust up and down.
> 
> Try a pid calibration, and note down the the values from the PID and lower down the I derivate. You will have less oscillations but a slower response.


 I am not interested in the temperature at the boiler in itself, but for a given offset between boiler and puck (let's say 8 c for the sake of argument), having water in the boiler 5 c hotter than the set temperature means that the water will hit the puck 5 degrees hotter than I want, hence my intention to tune the PID parameters to reduce the cycling.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

MW11 said:


> @rusty pieOk this is worrying! Let us know what happens and how to fix this. I would email @Paolo_Cortese and ask about it


 I did think about contacting Paolo, but knowing the pressure he is under to deliver the second batch before the holidays I thought about asking here first before bothering him.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Maybe some other users from the first batch can join and tell us if they experience the same behaviour. If not they could share you their pid settings.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@rusty pie A few questions to get us started



What are your PID settings?


what temperature is the boiler set to


what temperature is the group set to


Why do you think below is true, do you have more specifics, measurements and observations




> having water in the boiler 5 c hotter than the set temperature means that the water will hit the puck 5 degrees hotter than I want, hence my intention to tune the PID parameters to reduce the cycling.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @rusty pie A few questions to get us started
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 PID settings are stock, Kp=2 Ki=0 Kd=5. Temperatures are currently 100 boiler and 92 group but the cycling is not noticeably affected by these (I've tried changing both by +- 5 C).

I have no measurements but I think it's safe to assume that if the water is 5c hotter in the boiler it will be roughly 5c hotter initially when it hits the puck as, for a set ambient temperature, the offset is predominantly determined by physical characteristics of the machine which obviously don't change.

I've just tried to change Kp to 1 and 0.5, Ki to 1 and Kd to 10 (one at the time) but I haven't observed any noticeable change in the temperature cycling of the boiler.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Please keep us posted. Thx


 I've shaved a bit off now, new measurement is 54.23mm down from 54.4mm. Only made one coffee so far, but much better.

One strange thing, possibly not significant, is that since changing from the old tamper which measures 53.91mm, I have had to coarsen the grind a little. Could it be that the small untamped area between the tamper and the basket wall is allowing a little bit of channelling which had to be compensated for?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@rusty pie What is the band limit parameters B outside that range, the PID acts as a straight on/off controller.

I think it is in C, but I remember an advanced value of some sort on a machine everyone thought was in C but it wasn't. I will get clarity on that for the Evo. *I have just confirmed it is definitely in C*

I assume you have read this, especially the section with the diagram and explanation of how the PID parameters work?

https://sway.office.com/pQLa02FN4KX86gkG?ref=Link











> I've just tried to change Kp to 1 and 0.5, Ki to 1 and Kd to 10 (one at the time) but I haven't observed any noticeable change in the temperature cycling of the boiler.


 What did you observe, exactly...how long did you wait for it to settle down? I still don't know how often these oscillations are happening



> *The brew temperature on my Evo overshoots the set temperature by a wide margin (around 4-5 c) and gets in a constant oscillation so I'm going to try and adjust the pid values*


 Is this 4 or 5C above and below, e.g. if 100 is set on the boiler, are you seeing 105 and 95, or are you seeing 98 and 102? it sounds as if the oscillations are 95 to 105. Over what time period are these happening?

it could be, if my guess above is correct (and I should have to be guessing), that you are clipping the extremes of the B parameter, and it's sending full power for long enough to deliver an overshoot. Although I don't remember that happening in the test bed.

So based on no real information at all on rate of oscillations, temperatures etc..

Try



B = 10 (and if that doesn't help try higher values, for testing, it doesn't matter how high you go, because it simply means it will always act like a PID and never like and on/off switch)


Kp = 0.7


Ki = 0.02 (not .5, that's way too big by an order of magnitude)


Kd = 12


If that doesn't reduce oscillations, make a video of them.



> I have no measurements but I think it's safe to assume that if the water is 5c hotter in the boiler it will be roughly 5c hotter initially when it hits the puck as, for a set ambient temperature, the offset is predominantly determined by physical characteristics of the machine which obviously don't change.


 It's not safe to make assumptions without some measurements. Try taping some thermocouples in place where the group heaters are and then just below where the water enters the group. Leave these in place for 5 minutes, insulate them with something, so the probe measurement is not affected by ambient air movements. Note down those readings. *Think about what's happening when the water enters the group*

If you can take the top off and put a probe on the pipe leading to the group, fix it on nice and tight, measure the temperature as water enters the group. The measurement period should be about 6 seconds for a 4 second pump run.

The above will give you something to work with. You can then try dropping the boiler temperature ...measure the power consumed by the machine and if you see the group heaters kicking in as the group fills, you will know it's too cool. you want it just on the cusp if possible. Or the heaters kicking in for the briefest moment.

I can't some of these tests, because in my very old group, the heaters (or one of them didn't fit properly and burnt out in 3 days)


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Norvin said:


> I don't know at the moment, I'll probably shave a little off and see how that goes.


 Your new findings would be very interesting as the difference in inner diameter of the Paolo and IMS baskets, 54.4mm being an IMS diameter and presumably they decided on that based on their own baskets.

I observed that small gap at the rim as well but as perforations do not reach all the way to the edge of the rim, I wonmder if that would have any effect.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I can offer some information on the machines going out over the next week. There are 7 machines in total which have been completed, due to parts availability. Names are anonymized to initials only...but you know who you are.

1. Vienna to DS

2. Falmouth, UK to DP

3. Wokingham, UK to SS

4. France to FL

5. Munich, Germany to VV

6. Minneapolis USA to SL

7. Barcelona to IF or IT (not sure which are the initials)

*Don't shoot the messenger...I know nothing else....*


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

@DavecUK yes I've read your manual. the B value is also factory setting =5

The cycling never settles, each cycle is: when the temperature drops 0.2 below the set temperature, the heater turns on 4 or 5 times for a few seconds (the exact duration of every pulse seems random between 1 and 5 seconds), during this time the temperature of the water does not raise; 5-10 seconds after the heater has shut off for the last time the boiler temperature starts raising and raises within around 20 seconds to 3 to 5 degrees higher than the set temperature. Then it starts cooling down, and after few minutes drops down again to 0.2C below the set temperature and the cycle starts again. It looks to me that the PID turns on the heater for a few seconds, it waits a little but it does not measure any increase in temperature, so it turns it on again, but again no increase, and again, and again, and again, and at this point the water starts circulating and the sensor finally registers the temperature increase but it's too late and the water heats up too much.

With regard to the other point: at what temperature exactly the water hits the coffee puck is irrelevant for this discussion, what I care is temperature consistency: the point I'm trying to make is that if the brew boiler temperature fluctuates by 5 degrees then the temperature of the water that hits the puck will be inconsistent, depending if when I pull the lever the boiler is at the set temperature or 5C higher then the set temperature.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I can offer some information on the machines going out over the next week. There are 7 machines in total which have been completed, due to parts availability. Names are anonymized to initials only...but you know who you are.
> 
> 1. Vienna to DS
> 
> ...


 Rest of batch 2 in September or October? I passed a good deal on the BDB now I regret not taking it 😓


----------



## Ciprian75 (Jul 4, 2021)

2 machines more, mine, and... I think will be shipped in september ...


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

The rest of the machine will be shipped in the first 10 days of september not later


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

there is no reasons for me to postpone the shipment. i would like to ship everything tomorrow but i can't unfortunately for me and for who have to wait.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> there is no reasons for me to postpone the shipment. i would like to ship everything tomorrow but i can't unfortunately for me and for who have to wait.


 We know! Enjoy your vacation and stay safe.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

just to inform you that my vacation should start tomorrow but i'll be here almost all the next week to ship some orders... in any case thank you.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rusty pie said:


> @DavecUK yes I've read your manual. the B value is also factory setting =5
> 
> The cycling never settles, each cycle is: when the temperature drops 0.2 below the set temperature, the heater turns on 4 or 5 times for a few seconds (the exact duration of every pulse seems random between 1 and 5 seconds), during this time the temperature of the water does not raise; 5-10 seconds after the heater has shut off for the last time the boiler temperature starts raising and raises within around 20 seconds to 3 to 5 degrees higher than the set temperature. Then it starts cooling down, and after few minutes drops down again to 0.2C below the set temperature and the cycle starts again. It looks to me that the PID turns on the heater for a few seconds, it waits a little but it does not measure any increase in temperature, so it turns it on again, but again no increase, and again, and again, and again, and at this point the water starts circulating and the sensor finally registers the temperature increase but it's too late and the water heats up too much.
> 
> With regard to the other point: at what temperature exactly the water hits the coffee puck is irrelevant for this discussion, what I care is temperature consistency: the point I'm trying to make is that if the brew boiler temperature fluctuates by 5 degrees then the temperature of the water that hits the puck will be inconsistent, depending if when I pull the lever the boiler is at the set temperature or 5C higher then the set temperature.


 Try the setting I suggested which should calm it down a bit, if they don't fix it completely, then try Kp of 0.7


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Norvin said:


> little bit of channelling


 is it in the case 53.91 tamper ? Are you planning to trim the tamper from 54.23 mm or would you be staying put.

It will be useful to hear the experiences other 54.4 mm tamper owners.

Thanks Norvin. Appreciate your reply.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> is it in the case 53.91 tamper ? Are you planning to trim the tamper from 54.23 mm or would you be staying put.
> 
> It will be useful to hear the experiences other 54.4 mm tamper owners.
> 
> Thanks Norvin. Appreciate your reply.


 The old tamper is in the spares box, I doubt that I'll be using it again. it was only a battered old tamper that I got with a Fracino Cherub (yes, the Cherub is 58mm so I don't know why either).

I'll stick with the 54.23 for the time being to see how it goes, it seems ok now. If I change it again I'll post the new size here with the reasons for changing it.

edit. Forgot about the ACS branded tamper that came with the machine, that measures 52.84mm.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

The only parameter that seems to have an effect is B. I've tried reducing kp down to 0.1 and increasing ki up to 1.0 and Kd up to 20 and made no noticeable difference. Increasing B to 50 reduced the overshoot down to 0.3-0.6 degrees which is close to what I think it should be, but I have not yet checked what effect this has on the start up heating when the machine is initially turned on. I would definitely like to know what B really is and in what units, it definitely doesn't make sense it to be the PID band of operations in Celsius. If it really is a temperature, it most likely is in very small unit, ie tenths or hundreds of C as the scale goes from 0 to 999 in integers increments.

The machine still gives 5 to 8 quick pulses to the heater when it drops below the set temperature, ideally it should only be one longer single pulse like the steam boiler does, but this goes beyond my current understanding of the PID parameters tuning.

I would be really interested in hearing from the other owners if their machine has the same temperature cycle or if only mine has it.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am glad that I do not have the technical ability to understand one word of what you are telling us about Rusty! That is not to say that you should not tell us and indeed investigate it, but I am afraid I read on from the sidelines!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@rusty pie B is the range in centigrade from the set point at which the PID starts acting like a PID and not an on off controller, applying full power to the heating element. As I have confirmed before. This was double-checked with ACS, *perhaps they gave me incorrect information?*

Having a high value of B for the brew boiler cannot affect the warm-up time in any way, because the longest thing to warm up is the group, the brew boiler literally takes less than 3 or 4 minutes.

I have completely lost track of what you are doing and seeing, how it's being tested over what period and how you are instigating the fluctuations, pulling water from the group, whatever. So as I have a state of total confusion, it's best I watch from the sidelines, as clearly nothing I have suggested seems to help..


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

@rusty pie Get yourself a copy of this , it may help your understanding


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Once again....... If I set the brew temperature to let's say 100, without pulling shots or using the machine in any other way, I would expect the brew temperature on the display to be around 100 c all the time, let's say between 99.5 and 100.5. Well it doesn't, it cycles between 100 and 105. So when I pull a shot the water can be anything between 100 and 105, which defeats the purpose of having a PID, which is supposed to control accurately the temperature to have consistent results. Forget the offset between boiler and group, this has nothing to do with that.

What I would like to hear from all other owners is if their machine, when "idling", the brew temperature stays within few tenths of c to the set temperature or raises much more, to 3 to 5 c higher.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

10 minutes of your life you will never get back.

I have filmed the whole cycle just in case, but the first 60 seconds should be enough to clarify my issue. The brew temperature is set to 100C. In the first video all pid parameters are factory settings and the temperature raises to almost 104c.






I would be very grateful if the other lucky owners could tell me if their machine has a temperature variation similar to the first or second video.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

rusty pie said:


> Once again....... If I set the brew temperature to let's say 100, without pulling shots or using the machine in any other way, I would expect the brew temperature on the display to be around 100 c all the time, let's say between 99.5 and 100.5. Well it doesn't, it cycles between 100 and 105. So when I pull a shot the water can be anything between 100 and 105, which defeats the purpose of having a PID, which is supposed to control accurately the temperature to have consistent results. Forget the offset between boiler and group, this has nothing to do with that.
> 
> What I would like to hear from all other owners is if their machine, when "idling", the brew temperature stays within few tenths of c to the set temperature or raises much more, to 3 to 5 c higher.


 My brew boiler is set at 98C. When temp dips below 98C i.e. 97.9C, brew boiler light flashes a few times and temp rises to 99.5/100C. So boiler never displays below set point for long and is always in the 98 to 100 range, usually between 98 to 99.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I have no knowledge about PIDs or how they work but I suspect that it was set that way to lengthen the PIDs life. I heard PIDs fail after X period of time and maybe that's a way to make it last longer. It does make sense to me and I would choose 2-3c less temperature degrees than I want it to be. Unless I'm mistaken feel free to use retard language instead of all that hocus-pocus data I just read. @rusty pie


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MW11 said:


> I have no knowledge about PIDs or how they work


 Maybe it wasn't hocus locus but a genuine attempt to try to explain the issue he was having, supplemented by videos showing the exact issue. As others don't seem to be having this same problem I doubt it is set any different as he mentioned he left it at default. On the video you can see it overshot by c4 seconds and too about 8 mins to return to target


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

What is left for someone who has less fluctuations is to check their values for the PID. Maybe yours was set different.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> Maybe it wasn't hocus locus but a genuine attempt to try to explain the issue he was having, supplemented by videos showing the exact issue. As others don't seem to be having this same problem I doubt it is set any different as he mentioned he left it at default. On the video you can see it overshot by c4 seconds and too about 8 mins to return to target


 I wasn't referring to the problem 🚶🏻‍♂️. I meant Kp Ki Bc &#8230;etc. clearly there was a problem but was it intentional? To lengthen PIDs life perhaps? I'm interested cause there is no maintenance support available where I live and I have to do everything myself. @rusty pie is really helping me to understand the machine more. After all, it's a new machine and we need this kind of feedback.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Why instal a PID in the first place then, just use a Pressurestat to do the job if you set it intentionally to have large swings. My Vesuvius has pid for the boilers and the aim has always been accurate / steady temps (which it achieves)


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Agree about finding out what settings work and why though as most fixes on espresso machines are carried out at the user end rather than sending back


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I get what Rusty pie is saying.

I have PID machines that maintain the setpoint to within a degree. *The heater light (heater) is constantly turning on and off for the briefest time to maintain that setpoint. There is no overshoot. *

With PID machines that I have had experience with, there is an 'auto-tune' parameter that you can run which allows the PID to programme itself to provide the most stable setpoint (and recovery time) for the use that the particular PID has been put to.

I just checked my Evo. I currently have the shot boiler setpoint as 100C. The temperature has a fluctuating arc range from 99.8C to 102.8C. The heater turns on at 99.8C...flashes a few times and the temperature rises and makes its way up to 102.8C. From that point it gradually lowers until it reaches 99.8C again. The cycle is then repeated.

So the setpoint is not a point, (like it is withevery other PID machine that I have used) it is a set *'range'. *At present, the PID system in my Evo is operating more like a pressurstat than a PID system.

I have a Conti CC100 machine that has PID. I know that the boiler has reached the PID setpoint when it hits 121C. It stays at that setpoint come-what-may. I have never seen it overshoot to 122C.

The other point to consider is how much difference 3C (in my current case) actually makes considering that the group must weigh north of 7kg.

Maybe the factory setting is not as good as it could be. *The question for me is....Is there an auto tune parameter that an Evo owner can run in order to get it to operate as other PID machines do...ie to maintain a setpoint?*


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I'm glad that the soul crushing experience of having to film the grass grow finally paid off and now everyone seems to understand the problem. 😀 Luckily I found a way of balancing the phone on the hot water tap so left it there and went to watch the Olympics!

There was absolutely no intention of being condescending, apologies if it sounded that way, just wanted to explain in the plainest way possible.

Thanks everyone for the feedback, it helps a lot. I gather that this is a common problem. Changing the value of B to 50 or higher seems to resolve the issue, but I have not checked yet if there is any start up. By the way, I suspect that B might be the "bias" of the PID, ie a constant added to the pid equation, rather than a temperature band.

I too wondered if this in the long term is going to cause the heather (not the PID, that's on all the time) to fail earlier as the cycle period goes from around 9 minutes to 90 seconds so it will turn on 6 times more often. I hope that it is possible to manipulate the parameters to set the heater to turn on only once per cycle rather than 5 to 8 as currently, as it happens for the steam boiler, which would address the longevity issue.

As you can imagine, I've been doing some reading about PID's in the last couple of days and learned about the auto tune function of other PID's, so I too wonder if there is an auto tune function which would be the most effective way of setting the parameters of the PID to have the most effective response.

Unfortunately, my uni book on automatic controls is in a box on the other side of the world (literally) so I need to find another way of refreshing my memory about PID's parameters before going any further.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> Vesuvius has pid for the boilers and the aim has always been accurate / steady temps (which it achieves)


 I am not technically minded. What has changed in terms of the back end process, which causes a larger variations? I do not think Dave's alpha test bed had this issue. I think it will be useful if the other owners could check and report if they have these variations (and also check the B values) also on their machines. Thx


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

> 10 hours ago, Stevebee said:My Vesuvius has pid for the boilers and the aim has always been accurate / steady temps (which it achieves)


 Does the heater on the Vesuvius turn on only once per cycle, or multiple times? (5 to 10 on my Evo) I'm not suggesting that this affect by any means the operation or taste in the cup, it's just that I think it would be better for the longevity of the heating element if I could adjust to turn on only once, same as the one in the steam boiler.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> Does the heater on the Vesuvius turn on only once per cycle, or multiple times? (5 to 10 on my Evo) I'm not suggesting that this affect by any means the operation or taste in the cup, it's just that I think it would be better for the longevity of the heating element if I could adjust to turn on only once, same as the one in the steam boiler.


 Haven't you observed a similar pattern on the steam boiler? The difference could be we seldom use the steam boiler or it's not used as much as the brew.

Is there a pattern to this fluctuations - before pulling a shot, after, &#8230;?

What about the group head heating element?

Thx


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Like @rusty pie, I was trying to read a little bit of this PID. PFA the link, if anyone is interested in reading this.

I am not sure my understanding below is correct.



Since B is the temperature range, does a value of 5 mean 0.5C so that B = 50= 5C range? So, the heater is going to continuously heat the water to keep the temp at the set point of 100C?


Since the Ki is 0, is this working more like a PD?


Since, the default value of Kd and B are 5, does increasing the B mean the Kd will also go up as much as the B? If correct, the D then works more like a predictive model of measuring the deviation (ie change in error)?


Sorry if anyone finds this deviating from the scope of the thread. However, I think it is interesting. The bottom line is, given the views from the owners, these have no material impact to the cup.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

rusty pie said:


> Does the heater on the Vesuvius turn on only once per cycle, or multiple times? (5 to 10 on my Evo) I'm not suggesting that this affect by any means the operation or taste in the cup, it's just that I think it would be better for the longevity of the heating element if I could adjust to turn on only once, same as the one in the steam boiler.


 The Vesuvius doesn't have the extra digit you have got, it only displays integers. The maximum overshot temperature-wise I have registered on a very rare occasions has been 2 deg C. Usually once the temperature drops below the set one, it will starts flashing with very short pulses. During this period nothing happens on the temperature display, then the flashes stop and in 5-10 seconds the temperature gets to the set point plus one degree above it. If I had my brew boiler at 94 the overshot would be 95 deg C.

What I have noticed is that the temperature reading is on the slow side. I believe/hope that the temperature sensor acts quicker than the display. I posed this question last year but other Vesuvius users had not observed the same thing, drop in temperature during pulling a shot by 1-2 deg C.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The exact same happens with other machines I've seen. I very much doubt that this temperature oscillation due to the PID algorithm has any influence on the overall shot outcome given the thermal mass of the group.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@John Yossarian I've added a group thermometer to my Vesuvius. I've set the Brew temp to 93c. (I hardly steam so my steam boiler is turned off) Interestingly "at rest" the group idles around 88c but as soon as I pull a shot it hovers around 93c throughout. So I guess its critical to make the assessment when pulling the shot not when idling..


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> @John Yossarian I've added a group thermometer to my Vesuvius. I've set the Brew temp to 93c. (I hardly steam so my steam boiler is turned off) Interestingly "at rest" the group idles around 88c but as soon as I pull a shot it hovers around 93c throughout. So I guess its critical to make the assessment when pulling the shot not when idling..


 I am happy with the shot quality I get from the V. I do not have a group. I agree with your observation, the group at idle most likely is lower but the fact that it comes back to "live/temperature" so quickly is reassuring. And as I said the temperature observation I had was based on the brew boiler temperature display, not on independent measurement. I too keep my steam boiler switched off 99% of the time.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The standard V with my settings is absolutely accurate for brew temp within the espresso range, confirmed with my old "SCACEII" built 18 years ago and a SCACE II i got recently.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> So the setpoint is not a point,





Paolo5 said:


> it is a set *'range'*


 This range is what I think is *B* and *not* the *set point*. Dave, is my understanding correct please ?


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@DavecUK Yeh.. I got confused because at idle the group temp reads lower, so I (wrongly) assumed there was an offset and initially increased the temerature. Then I remembered you'd said it was extremely accurate, double checked when pulling a shot and realised the error of my ways!


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@John Yossarian John so have you got a

Vesuvius as well as the new Evo?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

My PID settings for the PID brew boiler on the Vesuvius are still at Dave C's default

P=1.2 I=0.02 D=12 PID setting (B) =5

The Vesuvius boiler is the same size, 0.8l, with the watts, 1000w, so I'm guessing similar PID settings may apply. Haven't seen any unusual fluctuations although ss mentions it is shown in integers not decimal places


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Stevebee You can set the breww temperature as 91 or 91.5, but it might only show in integers...although it will hit the temp set when tested.


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> @John Yossarian John so have you got a
> 
> Vesuvius as well as the new Evo?


 No, I do not have where to place a lever and I am very happy with Vesuvius' shots.

Have you managed to tame yours? 🙂


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Just finished a batch of 10 piston tools. I have listed them in a classified advert. So if you want one, please ask there.

Just for research purposes, I took the shower screen off with the tool. Remove circlip first. Put the tool through the cylinder from the top. Only needed light pressure to unseat the shower screen. No percussion persuasion needed. The top of the screen was stained with coffee, looks like it may need removing and cleaning periodically.

Refitting was easy, screen is a light push fit.


----------



## Ciprian75 (Jul 4, 2021)

Hello, while waiting for the my Evo, I would be curious to find out more impressions from the first ten happy owners, comparisons to the espresso machines they have used before, for better or worse, name the grinder also,

Thx


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Glad to share my experiences-

It has taken a fair amount of perseverence but I am now pulling fabulous shots with my Evo.

I have been used to 49mm and 58mm machines...almost exclusively levers. This is my first 54-55mm machine. Whilst I have been happily pulling great shots on other machines, to do the same on the Evo has meant that *my basket preparation technique has had to be raised a notch or two.* Otherwise I am treated to chronic channeling and awful shots.

I use-

*an IMS 32 (triple) basket dosed with 20gms of coffee.

*a well-worn in Helor Stance Motor grinder (Previously was using a new P-100 with new SSP burrs-this was adding to clumping/channeling)

*Pre-infusion of 2.5bar

*Group temp. 95C

*Boiler temp. 100C

*WDT

*Puck raking (this made a big difference to the consistency of my shots).

*I pre-tamp very gently with a 54.2mm tamper

*I tamp with a JoeFrex 54.8mm click tamper

*I have tried a BPlus screen but prefer this one-

*








https://www.coffeeparts.com.au/spare-parts/parts-by-category/shower-screens/700633-group-lever-shower-head

I would say that the shots that I have been pulling over the past fortnight have been as good (or perhaps better than) as any of the other machines that I have used over the past 15 years... with lots of crema and depth to the shots. This could be the honeymoon period speaking...will have to see how this goes over the long haul.

Things that I really like about my Evo-

*The relatively quick warmup

*The ability to turn the steam boiler on/off.

*Temperature adjustments manifest very quickly in real time.

*Ability to use as a stand-alone machine courtesy of the water tank.

*Excellent steaming ability.

*Aesthetically pleasing (to me) appearance. I love the look of the LSM group!

*The rugged stainless body and internals.

*The fraternity of other Evo owners and soon-to-be-owners who pitch in with helpful advice.

*The group-mounted extraction pressure gauge. It is a real treat to be able to watch and be able to influence the shot pressure as it is happening.

Things that I am not too sure about/ still getting used to-

*The "OFF" light on the panel remains illuminated when the machine is turned off. This couldn't be the best situation for the display's longevity. To turn this light off you must flip the green toggle switch under the side panel.

*The machine goes through much more water than any other machine that I have used. This is because the Evo shot volume is quite large...but only a portion of this volume makes up my shots...the rest is what DavecUK calls 'rubbish".

I refill the water tank after about 8-10 shots. The tank is approximately half full by then. If you have to buy suitable water in the bottle, this might become tedious.

*The panel fit where the drip tray meets the machine isn't as perfect as in the Vesuvius.

Any new machine needs a get-to-know you phase. The Evo has taken me longer than most.

I do know that it has been well worth all of the trial and error practices that I have done. Ciprian75...I hope that you meld with your Evo as I have done...but quicker!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@Paolo5 why didn't you start by saying you are pulling on a p100 grinder when you had the channeling problems?

I would tell you immediately the solution and why.... it's not because of your machine, it's because of the grinder. Unimodal burrs grind much much finer than others, and they have a lower acceptance of peak pressure during a shot.

A max pressure of 6 to 7 bar is what you are looking for in ssp 98mm HU/ ssp 64mm mp/64mm brew burrs. So you cannot pull at 10 bar and expect to not have problems and side flows. The grind is much much finer, and under such high pressure (force) it compresses and just wont let the water pass easily and uniform, it will just find the weaker points in the puck making a mess.

For those who have these type of grinders I would recommend:
a. retard the lever so you have a max pressure of 6-7 bar (dont know how easy this is).

b. remove one spring so you have under 8 bar peak pressure.

Dont be afraid to pull at lower pressure, the taste is fine.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi Denis...thanks for being so blunt! :classic_biggrin:

To be honest, I didn't think that HU burrs would present such a problem.

It's funny...but 11bar on the Vesuvius is no problem using the P100.

With another grinder and 'ordinary' basket preparation I still get channeling. It is not all the grinder's fault. It was 'operator error'.


----------



## Ciprian75 (Jul 4, 2021)

@Paolo5 thank you for a very comprehensive answer, I'm insanely impatient to see how will perform my D64 MP SSP burrs on Evo.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Paolo5 May I ask how many kg have you put through your P100? Those large SSP burrs need A LOT of coffee to season. Try asking local roasters for bad batches and once you hit 75kg+ you will notice the difference. I know a guy who is using monolith max with SSP burrs and Alex Leva and he has no issues.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

If that would be a real thing or the case then nobody would buy ssp burrs for home use.

You need 3 to 5 kg of coffee (dark oily roasts) for seasoning so the coating is covered with coffee oils and the ultra sharp edges are "smoothen out" from the production.

So give me my concern of calling that bullshit.

Also try shots like I told you at 6 bar and at 10 bar on 98mm ssp HU and see what you like better.

Monolith max has either ssp low uniformity (LU) or suriken so not 98mm ssp HU that are inside the p100.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> If that would be a real thing or the case then nobody would buy ssp burrs for home use.
> 
> You need 3 to 5 kg of coffee (dark oily roasts) for seasoning so the coating is covered with coffee oils and the ultra sharp edges are "smoothen out" from the production.
> 
> ...


 Oh all knowing and wise one! Thanks for gracing us with your so much needed wisdom. Unless you have tried 98mm SSP burrs with a LSM group head then your information is baseless BULLSHÏT. Last I checked you have a decent and the 63mm bentwood so excuse me if I wouldn't take your opinion with a grain of salt.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)




----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Oh poor you, you got a bit butt hurt?

Maybe I have plenty of experience when it comes to grinders, burrs, ssp and all that stuff. I did not want to post everything to scare you so I posted only the stuff I have above 73mm not bellow so you dont get sad.

As for having and not having (this is not something important for me) but it seems you are speaking of experience from others and not from yourself, just like the thing with 75kg break in on ssp, that is just pure madness for home use.

Kafatek max has a grind time of 25-35 sec for a dose. Imagine break-in 75kg on it, please next time you take advices from your weird friends, ask them details or dont believe them so easily.

Maybe you can tell me what burrs I had in the ultra and ek (not the same pair of burrs).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Please everyone, try and keep things friendly and respectful. Always attack the argument, not the person.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stop telling people their equipment isn't good enough! That's very rude and who do you think you are to dictate to them what to have or what to do? Check the Lagom P100 thread on HB my friend @codes123 who is on the EVO's 2nd batch have the Lagom P100 and seasoned it with 65kg+ and he told me he didn't notice any difference until he hit 20kg+ then kept on seasoning and the grinder got better and better. Who do you think you are to make us believe your user experience and not others? The owner of the Max and Izzo Alex Leva is on the Kafatek forum @thomas and @danielpugh was the one who asked him about SSP burrs and the LSM group head. Be respectful and people will give you respect otherwise you'll have to hear what you deserve!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Yes for sure.

Please correct me if i'm wrong, but at a 25 sec rate for 18g of coffee (monolith max with 98mm ssp) to grind 75kg of coffee it would take 29 hours of continuous grind to season the burrs. If you know anyone who is grinding at home that is willing to do such thing when buying a grinder, please let me know.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Yes for sure.
> 
> Please correct me if i'm wrong, but at a 25 sec rate for 18g of coffee (monolith max with 98mm ssp) to grind 75kg of coffee it would take 29 hours of continuous grind to season the burrs. If you know anyone who is grinding at home that is willing to do such thing when buying a grinder, please let me know.


 Who said anything about max? 
MY FRIEND WHO HAS A LAGOM P100 TOLD ME THAT.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)




----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


>


 ????????????????????

brothers' quarrel nothing more. 
I do learn from @Denis S but don't enjoy his essays! They are time consuming and I have a monkey's brain ????????

@Denis S let's have a peace treaty ????????????????????????


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


>


 I hope that's not your advice ????


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


>


 Based on the advice quoted (above) I no longer have a desktop PC. ????????????????????????????


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Based on the advice quoted (above) I no longer have a desktop PC. 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂


 Glad you didn't watch the clip until the end 🔫


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

And I will be using my Evo with a humble Niche... I almost don't want to read what reaction that will produce on certain people 😂


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Thumbs up from me (and @DavecUK) as that is what we use! Over the years, I have had probably more kit than most on here. Thank goodness my penchant was satisfied before these expensive single dosers with their 'scientific' approach became fashionable! I now trust my taste buds (which are crap) assuming that no matter how excellent my coffee might be, I would be unable to discern much of a difference!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

msmk0 said:


> And I will be using my Evo with a humble Niche... I almost don't want to read what reaction that will produce on certain people 😂


 Should work fine, it's what I use.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> Should work fine, it's what I use.


 Ha!* It was ironic, I am pretty sure a NZ is fine, although some people, and I respect it, might not be happy with just "fine".

* That "Ha!" is because it is really amusing to tell to some British guy something it's ironic! 😂


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

..


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Haha and to think I ordered an Evo because I wanted to simplify my espresso making with more consistency and less tweaking.

Plus enjoy light roasts with my DF64 w/ ssp unimodal.

Didn't realize I needed a PhD along with thousands of dollars to grind a good shot of espresso.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I worked for my money and for my equipment, it didnt fall from the sky into my counter. I also have and use cheaper equipment and i'm not afraid to admit it. But this is not the point here, I react to each individual different, when there is someone I dont like I just go ham.

In my opinion over the years and tests, a finer grind will like less pressure and a more gentle approach. A dual spring lever with 300kf is not a gentle approach, it's like a big hammer hitting the puck, so because of that I do not think this lever will perform the best with those unimodal grinders in it's stock form. But we can test that more pretty soon as me and my friends have 3 units arriving, and we have a varied arsenal of grinders and burrs. I say this because on the decent, each grinder is performing better with a specified profile made for it. A profile that was made for Niche and has great results, is not having good results at all with 98mm ssp HU or 64mm unimodal (multi-purpose/brew). So all my "generalisations" and ideas are based on facts.

Niche is a great grinder already had one, easy to use, no retention, easy to clean. It doesn't even need RDT or much WDT compared to other grinders that you have to babysit if you want consistency. Related to taste I wont comment as we have a different vision of what espresso should taste like.

I already payed and ordered both ims baskets (26 and 32mm height) and I also got this basket of amazon:

https://www.edesiaespress.com/dalla-corte-14g-double-shot-replacement-portafilter-basket-coffee-espresso/

I got it because it has holes at the edge, it's a lower dosage (26mm) and it's a bit conical/tapered and i'm always looking for that.

Have a great week.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I worked for my money and for my equipment, it didnt fall from the sky into my counter. I also have and use cheaper equipment and i'm not afraid to admit it. But this is not the point here, I react to each individual different, when there is someone I dont like I just go ham.
> 
> In my opinion over the years and tests, a finer grind will like less pressure and a more gentle approach. A dual spring lever with 300kf is not a gentle approach, it's like a big hammer hitting the puck, so because of that I do not think this lever will perform the best with those unimodal grinders in it's stock form. But we can test that more pretty soon as me and my friends have 3 units arriving, and we have a varied arsenal of grinders and burrs. I say this because on the decent, each grinder is performing better with a specified profile made for it. A profile that was made for Niche and has great results, is not having good results at all with 98mm ssp HU or 64mm unimodal (multi-purpose/brew). So all my "generalisations" and ideas are based on facts.
> 
> ...


 I'll be looking forward to your comparisons! I'm currently running an ek43 with GP SSP burrs so I assume I'll also have to dial back the pressure.

Is it hard to remove the second spring to get 8 bar?


----------



## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

As a general reader I enjoy @Denis S opinions and am glad he shares them.

I will be curious to hear how he finds the new machine, and tbf the comparisons with the Decent user experience.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

gearosthyd said:


> I'll be looking forward to your comparisons! I'm currently running an ek43 with GP SSP burrs so I assume I'll also have to dial back the pressure.
> 
> Is it hard to remove the second spring to get 8 bar?


 Personally, I would wait until you get the machine before deciding to remove a spring and try it with your beans. They might be a different roast level etc.. and you may find it works as is for you. Of the 10 or so owners so far, none has felt the need to remove a spring yet and appear more than happy with the quality of shots it produces.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> Personally, I would wait until you get the machine before deciding to remove a spring and try it with your beans. They might be a different roast level etc.. and you may find it works as is for you. Of the 10 or so owners so far, none has felt the need to remove a spring yet and appear more than happy with the quality of shots it produces.


 Indeed. Try for yourself first then decide. 
I just wrote 1 meaningful line! Amazing 😎


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I would use the machine and get familiar with it in it's stock form. If I would not be happy after some time I might consider changing something but I would not mess with it in the first month.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Well, second batch is arriving their destinations!

Now I have to work for few hours before I can play.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@msmk0 are the legs still on the case, in fairness to DHL, it looks unscathed. Of course yours went overland.....


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> @msmk0 are the legs still on the case, in fairness to DHL, it looks unscathed. Of course yours went overland.....


 Nope, no wooden legs on the case, only 8 nice nail spikes I had to remove before even attempting anything.

Apart from that all the case was in pretty good condition.

It is a heavy beast, but I managed to attach the feet and leave it the counter.

Later unwrapping, inspection and pictures 😉


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Unpacked, cleaned and ready to begin cleaning and commissioning per @DavecUK's instructions. My machine is 115V with white panels and praying mantis arms.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

This looks soo good!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@SL01 Welcome to the club matey.....take your time getting to know her! Depending on the roast level of your bean preference, you might find the ability to adjust temp of interest!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@SL01 Mantis arms look good and practical.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

I've just finished to unpack, unwrap and check. Placed on it's final position.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

SL01 said:


> Unpacked, cleaned and ready to begin cleaning and commissioning per @DavecUK's instructions. My machine is 115V with white panels and praying mantis arms.
> 
> View attachment 59233


 Ah fantastic! Someone with coloured panels. Any chance we could some more pictures? I'm still on the fence about getting mine in white.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Very jealous right now 😃 can't wait to get mine. Hopefully soon the next batch ships!


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

And already found one small, but unexpected issue (since didn't read it before here)...

Bottomless portafilter doesn't fit properly. I tried one spout and two spout portafilters and they work fine.

The "flaps" only enter about 20% and clearly a safety issue.

Some pictures here


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@msmk0 mine is same. Been using bottomless portafilter on a daily basis without any problems since my Evo landed early June. Just make sure it's tight but don't over-tighten.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> @msmk0 mine is same. Been using bottomless portafilter on a daily basis without any problems since my Evo landed early June. Just make sure it's tight but don't over-tighten.


 It shows exactly that on yours and @dfk41 videos. Looks like all the nakeds are the same and as you say doesn't seem to be an issue. If you were concerned you could always file down the lugs but not sure how good that would look! If mine is the same I'd be fine, just ensure its a sung fit, which is what I do on the L1 anyway


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Congrats @SL01& @msmk0

tell us your thoughts about the long wands. They look amazing but are they practical? Can't wait to hear your first impressions. Enjoy


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@msmk0 I'd see if you can lock it in a little tighter than this....is the machine warm or cold when you are doing this?

View attachment 59238


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@msmk0 what basket are you using? I have not strayed from the standard and I do find the single spout filter tightens in slightly further but I have used the bottomless without fear of safety issues


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

I will try naked portafilter tomorrow whit everything hot hot. Also I am thinking about IMS filters and maybe they doesn't have those big lips stock baskets come with. Anybody with IMS 54mm filters here already can confirm?

About the long arms, they actually do seem practical...


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@msmk0 thanks for the fast reply ✨

I still have plenty of time to modify everything. (I pushed my order to November cause I just bought another lever). So, everything you guys share and recommend is highly appreciated. Enjoy.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

You will probably find the single and double spouted lock on at 6 o'clock as mine do. Only the naked is different.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MW11 said:


> @msmk0 thanks for the fast reply ✨
> 
> (I pushed my order to November cause I just bought another lever).


 Is that so both arms get a workout ? 💪


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> Is that so both arms get a workout ? ????


 Hell to the yeah!!


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

The Systemic Kid said:


> You will probably find the single and double spouted lock on at 6 o'clock as mine do. Only the naked is different.


 Mine does the same. Just so you know.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah fantastic! Someone with coloured panels. Any chance we could some more pictures? I'm still on the fence about getting mine in white.


 Here are a couple of photos of mine with white panels.

The color is a very contemporary off-white, like the kind you'd find in high-end furniture at Roche Bobois or any modern furniture boutique. While it is not flat matte, it has a very welcoming texture of about 150 grit so it will not take on any fingerprints. It is a great match for our Alessi white kettle and is every bit as stylish. This was an unknown but Paolo absolutely succeeded with his choice of color, texture and supplier. My pictures simply do not do them justice.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

msmk0 said:


> And already found one small, but unexpected issue (since didn't read it before here)...
> 
> Bottomless portafilter doesn't fit properly. I tried one spout and two spout portafilters and they work fine.
> 
> ...


 The basket I received fits pretty well centered in the bottomless portafilter. If there is any lopsidedness, I certainly cannot see it. Perhaps it needs to be removed and snapped back into the spring-loaded seat and all would be fine. A strong crank of the Paolo basket would have the handle at 6:30 and with the IMS, at 6:00. Both seal the same - perfectly.

Attached are photos of the Paolo basket and the IMS 26M basket.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

@Norvin I have messaged you about the piston removal tool, did you get my message?


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

rusty pie said:


> @Norvin I have messaged you about the piston removal tool, did you get my message?


 No, I've sent you a message, just respond to that.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Norvin said:


> No, I've sent you a message, just respond to that.


 Done, please give me a shout if you don't get this either.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Thanks to @Paolo_Corteseand @DavecUK, the Evo is an absolute masterpiece. It brings joy and satisfaction from the entire engagement of preparing a drink, and I feel genuinely rewarded with the patience invested into waiting for the Evo.

Using the Evo is a lot like rolling a cigar in a Cuban factory with unlimited access to the finest cured leaves while the masters are looking over my shoulder to guide my technique to get the most from the hard work the farmers have put in. It's that visceral. Not only was the wait worth it, I just cannot imagine any other machine being able to deliver this entire spectrum of indulgence to the senses.

My first trials was done with a store-bought "French Roast". It is partially to season my HG-1 with new SSP burrs and partially to dial in the grind. With the 83mm SSP burrs touching set at 0, I settled on 10.6 on the HG-1 scale to yield a 18/35 pull at about 42 seconds. I did this with both the Paolo and 26M baskets.

Result? Simply sublime - clear delineation of fruit notes, molto chocolate, mature prunes lined with vanilla using the Paolo basket. With the 26M, the notes are deeper but not significantly so, with more emphasis on fruit than chocolate. Crema galore. Since this is at the end of a rather long morning cleaning and flushing session, we stopped for lunch and decided to rest our taste buds to start anew tomorrow and onward.

Clearly the Evo is enabling the potential in whatever bean is there waiting to be unearthed. Not since 2008 when my wife and I was shocked at the taste of the Intelligentsia Black Cat at the Specialty Coffee Association convention had we thought we are finally getting close again. Perhaps upping the ante on the grinder will yield even more impressive results but one things for sure, we don't think we need more competence than the Evo to extract what is in the portafilter.

Thanks again - @Paolo_Cortese and @DavecUK~

P.S. @Norvin asked how I plan to water the Evo as it sits so tightly in a corner. Below please see how my under-sink RO faucet on long John Guest tubing clinging nicely on the edge of the water tank. Worked especially well through the clean/flush cycle when the Evo drinks on the left and drains on the right per attached photo.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

SL01 said:


> Here are a couple of photos of mine with white panels.
> 
> The color is a very contemporary off-white, like the kind you'd find in high-end furniture at Roche Bobois or any modern furniture boutique. While it is not flat matte, it has a very welcoming texture of about 150 grit so it will not take on any fingerprints. It is a great match for our Alessi white kettle and is every bit as stylish. This was an unknown but Paolo absolutely succeeded with his choice of color, texture and supplier. My pictures simply do not do them justice.
> 
> ...


 The white looks so good. I wonder if I can change mine to the white panels instead of stainless steel. How much extra were the white panels?

Since I think you are the first person to officially have a North American version what priority do the boilers fire off at including the grouphead heaters?


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> The white looks so good. I wonder if I can change mine to the white panels instead of stainless steel. How much extra were the white panels?
> 
> Since I think you are the first person to officially have a North American version what priority do the boilers fire off at including the grouphead heaters?


 Thanks - the white is very good. You should contact @Paolo_Cortese to get his take on the price. It was absolutely worth it to me and my wife.

I started having all 3 on to see how it would sequence. With the group heaters on and climbing, it appeared the brew boiler took precedence while the steam boiler waited in the wings. Please see attached photo.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

SL01 said:


> Thanks - the white is very good. You should contact @Paolo_Cortese to get his take on the price. It was absolutely worth it to me and my wife.
> 
> I started having all 3 on to see how it would sequence. With the group heaters on and climbing, it appeared the brew boiler took precedence while the steam boiler waited in the wings. Please see attached photo.
> 
> View attachment 59254


 Oh ok so the grouphead heaters can be on while the brew boiler is also on so it's looking like grouphead heaters have the most priority.

Still can't get over how good your machine looks.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Oh ok so the grouphead heaters can be on while the brew boiler is also on so it's looking like grouphead heaters have the most priority.
> 
> Still can't get over how good your machine looks.


 All credit goes to @Paolo_Cortese


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

SL01 said:


> Thanks to @Paolo_Corteseand @DavecUK, the Evo is an absolute masterpiece. It brings joy and satisfaction from the entire engagement of preparing a drink, and I feel genuinely rewarded with the patience invested into waiting for the Evo.
> 
> Using the Evo is a lot like rolling a cigar in a Cuban factory with unlimited access to the finest cured leaves while the masters are looking over my shoulder to guide my technique to get the most from the hard work the farmers have put in. It's that visceral. Not only was the wait worth it, I just cannot imagine any other machine being able to deliver this entire spectrum of indulgence to the senses.
> 
> ...


 Nice writing @SL01! We have hidden talents I see 🤔 Try Vivace it's my favorite Northern-Italy style roastery


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The routine I am in, is to fire the machine on with heater and brew, then when they reach temp, knock the steam boiler on. Somedays I Geta few visitors but I never know who, how many or when! Once the steam is up to temp, I knock it off. The reason for this is I have one milk drink a day around 11am and can plan for that, but if someone calls by and the steam has been heated even after 90 minutes of being off, it reduces the time greatly to get back to temp


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Bring it on, i'm ready!

IMS 26 and 32mm height baskets.

55mm bplus mesh screen (got it 3-4 months ago)

54.9mm base tamper for my Bravo tamper made locally SS

The bplus fits no problem in both baskets, it goes deeper than 10mm (the protrusion of the group into the baskets) and the tamper fits really snug into the 26mm height basket (some suction will be but I dont care cause I tamp on the bplus) and no suction in the bigger 32mm basket. (I am referring to the height of the baskets because I do not know their capacity).


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> The routine I am in, is to fire the machine on with heater and brew, then when they reach temp, knock the steam boiler on. Somedays I Geta few visitors but I never know who, how many or when! Once the steam is up to temp, I knock it off. The reason for this is I have one milk drink a day around 11am and can plan for that, but if someone calls by and the steam has been heated even after 90 minutes of being off, it reduces the time greatly to get back to temp


 Great idea! I plan to do the same.

I started this morning with both the group heater and brew boiler on, steam boiler off and the first to the mark is the brew boiler. After both reached temp, I started the steam boiler and it did not take that long for it to reach temp either. So it is now off awaiting my wife's quest for her cappuccino. The group heater and steam boiler will stay on for the morning..


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I do not have many updates but I have an important one. Preparing for the upcoming week with great coffee beans.

And probably a coffee meeting at my place.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S We all had to count the days down Denis.....then as if by magic, a certain day arrives and you wonder what all the fuss was about!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

IMS shower screen, baskets and other bits and pieces arrived today so I could set about separating the piston in order to grease the thread and metal to metal contact in order to make the job easier down the line when the single piston seal needs replacement.

After removing the dome hex nuts, found it difficult prizing the piston assembly out of the group. With a bit of encouragement, it came away OK.

First thing you notice when you've removed the piston and springs is just how well made the group is. From the cutaways on the side, the outer spring is rounded - but lower down, when it reaches the bore it's shaved flat.

@Norvin piston tool made separating the piston from the rest of the assembly really easy - many thanks Les. Required a bit more force than I was expecting so pleased I did it now. Greased the thread after applying some PTFE tape with Molykote to make the job easy when it's time to replace the seal.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Fitted IMS shower screen - compared to stock ACS














​


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Also got rather a lot of nylon washers to fit under group dome nuts. Anyone wanting some for their Evo, let me know.






​


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Also got rather a lot of nylon washers to fit under group dome nuts. Anyone wanting some for their Evo, let me know.
> 
> View attachment 59286​
> View attachment 59287


 Nylon washers is a great idea. Do you have the spec. And/Or link for future?


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Does anybody know what voltage the solenoids for the water supply valves use? Specifically the one for refilling the water tank?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pinky mirror on a stick needed...Frankenstien does not have that capability.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

danielpugh said:


> Nylon washers is a great idea. Do you have the spec. And/Or link for future?


 https://www.zoro.co.uk/shop/fasteners/plain-washers/m6-plain-washer-nylon-pa-6-6/p/ZT1112792X


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Fitted IMS shower screen - compared to stock ACS
> 
> View attachment 59284
> 
> ...


 @The Systemic Kid Any thoughts in the IMS shower screen yet?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pulled couple of shots this morning and pleased with results using the IMS 32 (18/22grm) basket. Going to try the IMS 26 (12/18grm) tomorrow. Annoyingly, got family coming over this afternoon and they've ignored my hints😀

Will upload some videos when I've got time from making pizzas🤣


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Pulled couple of shots this morning and pleased with results using the IMS 32 (18/22grm) basket. Going to try the IMS 26 (12/18grm) tomorrow. Annoyingly, got family coming over this afternoon and they've ignored my hints😀
> 
> Will upload some videos when I've got time from making pizzas🤣


 @The Systemic Kid Enjoy your family time 🌟

Would you mind making a video of taking the group head apart then putting it back in like that great Londinium video of yours on YouTube, please? That video is amazing and full of great info and easy to follow instructions 👍🏻. I consider that video a must-see by all Londinium owners! Tho I don't own a Londinium nor plan on owning one but thank you for that very helpful video. 
• for anyone who missed Patrick's best-manual/instruction-guide for Londinium owners here it is (enjoy watching the half hour video, I know I did! ) :


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 will do tomorrow👍


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/acs-vesuvius-evo-leva-t73845-60.html

Looks like a question being asked of Evo owners, last post


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Switched back from the single spout to the naked and noticed straight away, that the naked is locking in better, but the handle without force, is not yet at 6 o'clock


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

First outing with the IMS H26 12-18grm. Dosed 18grms. As can be seen from residue on shower screen, 18grms might be a tad too much. That said shots pulled very evenly - no sprays. 10 sec PI and shot completed in 29 secs. Used Kenyan beans which is a real test for espresso. Best shots I've pulled on this bean to date. I think the IMS H32 is too much for 18grm dose and may be the cause of intermittent spraying I've been getting. So will be sticking with the IMS H26 for the time being.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Dark patches reflect the area of the shower screen covered by the circlip


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Here are mine from this morning:

Screen: ACS

Basket: IMS 26M

Coffee: Passalacqua Versuvius

Prep: 18.03g, tamped at 60psi

Shot: 10 sec PI ~1.5 bar per factory, 30 sec complete, 35.5 gm out

Spray: none visible

Red Arrows: Circlip impressions

Yellow Arrow: Slight compression when puck exited basket at an angle

Taste: Excellent depth and flavor true to Neapolitan tradition, no acidity

Me: Very Happy. 😃


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> First outing with the IMS H26 12-18grm. Dosed 18grms. As can be seen from residue on shower screen, 18grms might be a tad too much. That said shots pulled very evenly - no sprays. 10 sec PI and shot completed in 29 secs. Used Kenyan beans which is a real test for espresso. Best shots I've pulled on this bean to date. I think the IMS H32 is too much for 18grm dose and may be the cause of intermittent spraying I've been getting. So will be sticking with the IMS H26 for the time being.


 What PI and brew pressure are you using?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

rusty pie said:


> What PI and brew pressure are you using?


 1.5 bar - as it came from the factory.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> 1.5 bar - as it came from the factory.


 Thanks, what brew pressure does that translate to?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

At lever release, max pressure hit is 10 bar.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The clip position is less likely to transmit at the bottom of the puck, there is a wall of water between the puck and the shower screen.

What those black spots might be are the pattern of the holes in the ims basket, if you look at the basket is has some dead spots with no holes (6-8 positions maybe).

The fact that you can dose 18g of coffee into the 26mm basket and still have that much headspace is good. do you have a impregnation of the clip in the puck after extraction?

I might be able to run 17g into the 26mm h basket with bplus on top (1.7mm thickness) I will also 100% remove the clip and shower screen and use only the bplus. Less cleaning more even water distribution in pi.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I am planning to get a DF64 grinder, what burrs will work best for the Evo? It can come with:

- standard burrs,

- titanium coated (+50USD)

- SSP Red Speed burrs High Uniformity (+220USD)

- SSP Red Speed burrs Multipurpose (+220USD)


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> What those black spots might be are the pattern of the holes in the ims basket, if you look at the basket is has some dead spots with no holes (6-8 positions maybe).
> 
> The fact that you can dose 18g of coffee into the 26mm basket and still have that much headspace is good. do you have a impregnation of the clip in the puck after extraction?
> 
> ...


 You might be right Denis but have a look at this second shot I took of the same puck using flash for higher contrast.

What do people think - IMS basket dead spots or shower screen retaining circlip?


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I too am wondering if the circlip has any effect on the water distribution, I have noticed on occasions erosion of the puck in the exact corresponding spot where the two circlip holes are located..... if I remember well I've read that the shower screen does not drop down easily when the circlip is removed, so removing it permanently should not be a problem, am I right?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> What do people think - IMS basket dead spots or shower screen retaining circlip?


 Although Denis has nicely identified 8 dead spots, IMO, they can't create a black ring consistent with circlip, can't they ? 😊


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I will remain with my initial theory:

Lelit Bianca (no clip or screws to obstruct flow):

Check B and D.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> IMS basket dead spots or shower screen retaining circlip?


 This is one way to eliminate this:

- cover (with tape) an area inside the basket, towards the edge. How does that translate to puck dark spots?

- cover (with tape) an area of the shower screen, inside, towards the edge (inside so it doesn't float away). How does it translate to puck dark spots?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> First outing with the IMS H26 12-18grm. Dosed 18grms. As can be seen from residue on shower screen, 18grms might be a tad too much. That said shots pulled very evenly - no sprays. 10 sec PI and shot completed in 29 secs. Used Kenyan beans which is a real test for espresso. Best shots I've pulled on this bean to date. I think the IMS H32 is too much for 18grm dose and may be the cause of intermittent spraying I've been getting. So will be sticking with the IMS H26 for the time being.
> 
> View attachment 59307
> 
> ...


 @The Systemic Kid Izzo Alex Leva owners posted pics of the circlip touching the puck after taking the portafilter off. They said it was best to do that to eliminate channelling. So over dosing might be needed here. Have you gotten a bplus yet? Might worth a try. Thanks for the photos and info.

I get that circle with my robot too and I think it's due to the basket. Perhaps there is a work around or we could just live with it (the affect might not be that great in the first place). There's not many 55mm baskets to choose from 😔


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 Call me a heretic but I don't get the idea of introducing a screen like the Bplus into the equation. Have only made a couple of shots using the h26 IMS so far and was knocked out with the results. Will stick with dosing between 17-18 grms and keeping shot times in the 30 sec ballpark. I am leaning towards the conviction that 18 grms doses in the bigger IMS are problematic for my set up, i.e. prone to sprays.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Gentlemen - call me a wuss but the analysis paralysis is making my head spin. I'm going to let the LSM do its job to deliver on the magic,, which I was so pleasantly surprised to have found within just a short few days of having it around.

Like @The Systemic Kid , I will stick with 18g into the 26M, tamped at 60psi and the rest as stated and enjoy a very nice cup o' java. No sprays, no channeling and very little group cleanup. When @Norvin's tool arrives, I will put the IMS screen in and see. I also have a Bplus on the way so if it does help keep the system even cleaner, that would be a welcome bonus.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The bplus is sitting above the puck letting no space there. The bplus because it's pressed by the water keeps the puck better together allowing for a more even porosity increase while you extract stuff out. This means the puck will inflate at a different rate because it's held together by the bplus disc.

Because of the way it sits, and it's made (a really thick 1.7mm mesh with multiple layers) the water is not projected into tiny nozzles like a shower screen and it wont create that jet streams that you see while flushing.

There are papers with precise measurements, showing a significant increase in EY while using the bplus (on 3 different machines).

Bplus is for people who drink light roasts, you dont want by any means an increase in extraction with italian blends, they will end up tasting like cow manure. Also for people who avoid doing extra steps for improvements, bplus will be a mega frustration because:

-you must place it on the coffee straight, or else it will fall on the edge making a big mess into the puck-

-you must wash it after each use, meaning you will put your sensitive fingers on a mega hot piece of metal-

- you must recover it after dumping the puck away, while it's still extra hot-

-you have to soak it in cleaning solution after 10-20 shots- some oils and coffee will stick inside-

I do understand that this wont be adopted by everyone, it involves some serious counter productive workflow. And for people who are enjoying the machine and the coffee in the most reliable and simple way, kudos to you, but for me atleast that is not what coffee is about.

If my coffee taste better if I use the bplus then I will use it. On my current machine it makes a big difference in taste.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> You might be right Denis but have a look at this second shot I took of the same puck using flash for higher contrast.
> 
> What do people think - IMS basket dead spots or shower screen retaining circlip?
> 
> ...


 My money is on the circlip. Covers a much wider area that the dead spots and is the most likely suspects. Will see once I get my machine as I have the IMS baskets as well. Would the screen stay in place without the circlip? If it did, you could do a before and after which would show exactly what is creating it


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Stevebee said:


> Would the screen stay in place without the circlip?


 I was going to suggest that on my post above, but, I assumed that the circlip is there for a reason 😉. But yes, if the circlip could be removed for the sake of the experiment, that would be the ideal test.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi All,

Interesting reading about some of the details here, but would also love to hear more about the overall experiences of the new owners, pros and cons of their new Evo, what they are learning, and photos. Will help me learn about my awaited new machine whilst I wait for the recommencement of shipping in September....

As an aside, could someone measure the free diameter and thickness of the screen retaining circlip when they have it out. I want to track down a stainless one and so those measurements would be useful. Yes, I know I can purchase an official LSM stainless one at a silly price, but if I have the measurements I can get some dirt cheap, and then play around grinding out the inner diameter to minimise the extent to which it obstructs the water. Not that it really actually will make a scrap of difference, i just love modding espresso machines.....

Thanks.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

So I've removed the circlip and the screen stays in place but rather precariously. A couple of very light taps and it falls down. I'm going to try and pull a shot without the circlip later today but I suspect the water pressure will push out the screen.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Elephantoplasty said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Interesting reading about some of the details here, but would also love to hear more about the overall experiences of the new owners, pros and cons of their new Evo, what they are learning, and photos. Will help me learn about my awaited new machine whilst I wait for the recommencement of shipping in September....
> 
> ...


 I sourced these ones on Ebay.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/322128853556

The 50mm ones are a good fit.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

So I've pulled a couple of shots without circlip and the screen stays in place - just.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

rusty pie said:


> So I've pulled a couple of shots without circlip and the screen stays in place - just.


 And the verdict is - basket or circlip?


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I forgot to check that - I was concentrating on how good the coffee tasted. Next time! 🙂


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

😆Bonkers

I can tell you in 3-4 hours, when the guy arrives with it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

As promised here's the guide to removing the spring assembly and piston seal service.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

> 1 hour ago, The Systemic Kid said:
> 
> As promised here's the guide to removing the spring assembly and piston seal service.


 Great content as always @The Systemic Kid

Thanks for doing this 👍🏻


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

> 1 hour ago, The Systemic Kid said:
> 
> As promised here's the guide to removing the spring assembly and piston seal service.


 Thank you Patrick! Awesome video. Much appreciated. 😊


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Thank you for the very clear instructions! Looking forward to repeat these steps in September once my machine arrives!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Excellent video, showing clearly how the group and piston comes apart for servicing. Nothing else like it on YouTube..

Shows the quality of the group with its stainless steel piston assembly and stainless wet liner bore sleeve. Might even be important for those who want to minimise brass and chrome contact with water.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Elephantoplasty said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Interesting reading about some of the details here, but would also love to hear more about the overall experiences of the new owners, pros and cons of their new Evo, what they are learning, and photos. Will help me learn about my awaited new machine whilst I wait for the recommencement of shipping in September....
> 
> ...


 Hi, I am not such an expert as many of the fellow owners here, so this is my opinion as an amateur owner...

To give some context, I only have a Niche Zero grinder to use with the Vesuvius EVO Leva.

Easy to use, easy to dial: once understood how it works, what does what and why to increase, decrease temperatures or even turn off PID on the group you realize how easy it is and how quick it works (obviously to lower temperatures that comes quicker with some flush). The lever doesn't feel hard or difficult to use, the other way around: even being assisted by two springs, the physical feedback is upgrading the coffee ritual part and I see the potential with the ability to modify in a really easy way the pressure during the shot (and thanks to the group gauge this will be easy to monitor real time).

A noticeable upgrade in taste. I was always told that grinder upgrades are much more noticeable than coffee machine upgrades... Except now. Wow! Although I had very enjoyable coffees with my humble Ascaso Dream ( that could be not the best quality materials machine, but it's a very capable little one and I had coffees that matched same one taken day before on a speciality coffee shop), the difference with the ACS Vesuvius EVO Leva it's astonishing: flavours are much more clear, easier to separate, less muddy, and more intense. And with IMS baskets I noticed an improvement on body texture as well.

It also an steaming beast I still have to tame, and the steam boiler get to temperature really quick in case you where idle with just brew boiler and turn it on.

Finally on the practical side, it's a relatively clean machine: as no return valve on the group (being s lever one) shower is always much cleaner than we are used to and with a short flush and a damp microfiber cloth it is perfect. On the other side, you always have to have a container to get all the discarded water from each shot or to empty and clean the tray every day.

Feel free to ask any questions


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Thanks @msmk0, appreciate hearing about your experience with the Evo.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Okay got mine today. I will try to be short on text somehow, but dont know how.

I was expecting a huge heavy pallet, it turned out to be 59kg, and I had a small furniture moving thing with 4 silicone wheels (takes up to 200kg) that little thing make things easier for me and it was cheap to buy.

I took the machine in my arms from the DHL truck and he driver told me i'm nuts. I carried it 20m it's heavy but I can do it.





















Managed to place the pallet somehow I had access to the under screws holding the machine. Watch out there are some nails under, look before doing anything so you dont cut yourself. The instruction are clear and the steps are in the manual (thank you Dave for making it). I took a blanket and flipped the machine on the back on the floor slowly, then proceed to remove the transport feet and install the provided ones+ the rubber stickers.

The hardest part was to lift the machine from the floor on the cabinet (95cm) so I would advice that someone helps you for this part if you can.

After that I rinsed and filled the tank with water (filtered bwt) and turned on the machine. The pumped sucked water from the tank but only a little amount (I guess they left the water in the boilers during shipping no problem).

My problems (it happens) when pulling the lever down the pump would never engage. My first thought was the machine must be hot for the pump to engage, so I turned off the steam boiler and waited for the machine to get to temp, but even then the pump would not engage. After talking to a member who has his I figured out the small pin at the back that touches the pump engage pin was moving and during shipping it screwed so it would not touch the pump pin to start it. There is a nut on the screw and mine was loose, easy fix and i'm happy.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

So to the coffee making.

I flushed 4-5 L of water out and measured it with the TDS metter so what I put in I get out (70ppm total with ultra low Ca (10ppm)).

I started with the 26mm ims basket with bplus and Bravo. I could dose 17 g in and use the bplus on top but I did not like the results as I had to grind a bit finer than what I would like, so I swapped to the 32mm basket with 19g dose and bplus on top.

The temp from the factory was set to 94C for the group and 96 C for the boiler (the steam boiler remains always off for me). After trying some, I have the impression the temp is much much higher than what i'm used on the Decent. The cups are so hot you can't hold them with your hands in the first 30 seconds. So I turned the temp down according to my taste (90 for group/92C for boiler) and the taste is much improved now for my coffees.

Managed to score a good tasting shot with 19g in 41 g out in 26 sec using a filter roast Ethiopia Bombe washed by Good Karma at 11 TDS/ 23.7% EY.

Still much to learn and test. The above puck is 19g into 32mm ims basket with bplus on top. The puck in the back with black spots is too fine grind and the front one is the last dialed shot.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S I'd be running with the brew boiler at 96 or 98 minimum.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Denis S strong 💪🏻 🤯

Thanks for the walk through and the step by step guide! Enjoy and keep us posted! Will be waiting for your experiments.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Denis S Thanks for the detailed note, heads up and shot experience. May you enjoy your experience with Evo!

Were the shower screen and the circlip in place for those shots?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Denis S I'd be running with the brew boiler at 96 or 98 minimum.


 Isn't that on the lower side Dave ? Of course, it depends on what the group head temp is. Thx


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Isn't that on the lower side Dave ? Of course, it depends on what the group head temp is. Thx


 his group head temp is 90, so no, it's fine. he is used to the temperature of his Decent machine.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

light roasts need a lower temp to ballance, otherwise you extract astringency and they demand a much finer grind at a higher temp so you end up with unpleasant aftertaste from grinding them too fine. It's not that easy.

I pulled 3 shots at the stock settings, the body is increased but so it's the aftertaste. But I will take your advices into considerations for sure and play with temp (higher brew temp and lower group temp).

I will not modify the machine yet, first I use it in the stock configuration, so all shots are with clip and shower screen. After some time I might take out the screen. But I am using the bplus to all my shots.

Group after 6 shots with bplus.

Also I did measure the flow for someone who is interested of this aspect.

in about 8 sec of flush I had ~200g out on the scale. Did it 2 times same numbers.

~25 g/s flow in preinfusion from the gear pump.

A vibratory pump can push 8 g/s at 0 bar, the moment the pressure starts to climb it falls a lot.

The max volume in the cup if you let all the shot run is ~70-75g out (but as many of you stated, more than 25 g is at a much lower pressure it looks weak).

I pull with bentwood at 1-2 ratio or close. With ssp a big longer.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

@Denis S, your photo of the bottom reminds me of a question I wanted to ask.

I plan on plumbing my Evo in. However, the long stainless braided inlet hose that comes with the machine won't work for me - I will be connecting it to a flexible plastic line with John Guest fittings.

Can anyone tell me the diameter and thread of the machine water inlet, and whether it is male or female.

Thanks.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

> 7 hours ago, The Systemic Kid said:
> 
> As promised here's the guide to removing the spring assembly and piston seal service.


 @The Systemic Kid A truly outstanding contribution, thank you!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

My understanding is, much like on an E61, there is a temperature loss from when the water leaves the brew boiler, travels through the group to when it hits the puck. I can't remember what mine is set on the Vesuvius, 13c I think, but that reflects the temp loss while it travels through the group, which should be similar on all V's.

I thought that circa 8c was the amount of anticipated temp loss on the Evo, so if you wanted to brew at 90, if you set the brew boiler at 98 it will brew at your goal of 90 at the puck, with the group set at 90 this will help keep the temp at this, even during pre infusion. If the brew boiler was set at say 92c, would it still lose 8c getting to the puck, even if the group head was set at 90. I would be suprised if the group at 90 could offset the normal 8c loss.

Just trying to get my understanding correct for mine arrives, hopefully in a few short weeks


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

@Stevebee I trust that once you find out the reason, you'll convey it in retard for others who are watching (speaking of myself).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Stevebee The group can do a lot and it would only take a moment to offset the 4-6C delta. It will do it, because the group itself has almost 220W of heating power available to it as well as a high mass. Where a problem might start is after many shots.

So personally I feel it's better to reduce the work the group heaters need to do.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

How you came with a 8C temp loss? the group in the vesuvius evo is much bigger and more mass than the e61 thermosyphon.

I do not think there is a 8C drop here.

As for brewing, I brew (not only me, a bunch of my friends) with 88C injection temp at the puck dropping to 86 C. As you can see here:

https://visualizer.coffee/shots/b3691442-577b-4d07-905c-17c48e6fa963

I played with all sort of temps, from 85 C to 95 and even 100C+ (you can on decent up to 105 C), and the best smoothest results with light roasts are with a 2-3 C drop not a straight temp profile, with 88-90C starting temp.

I've pulled a natural Castillo colombian filter roast again a few hours ago with 93C on boiler and 88C on group, and oh my the taste is spot on. Increasing the temperature gives me more coffee generic flavors that I do not want (I do not want chocolate, caramel, spices, darkness) I seek fruits mostly, and if the shot has a sourness balanced with sweetness then it's good.

Maybe with a an espresso roast, or a darker roast, you want a higher temp to bring out more oils and increase the mouthfeel, but on lighter stuff I mostly do not want that much, the body can easily cover other stuff and then the complexity decreases.

But I'm not that stubborn, I will play for sure with the temp (higher brew temp and lower group temp).


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Denis S said:


> How you came with a 8C temp loss?


 I didn't. That was the suggested offset when the initial prototype was being worked on.

With the Decent, as you know, the temp is effectively taken in the slurry, a mix of brew temp water and room temp coffee, which is different to how brew temps are measured on any other machine. So 88c on a Decent will probably be the same as a slightly higher temp on other machines.

But as you said, it's best to just try whatever tastes best and works for your beans and tastes


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Denis S said:


> How you came with a 8C temp loss?


 Dave has explained in the manual how to work out what's the loss for your specific machine and how to set a flat temperature profile before starting to play with declining ascending profiles. If, when you pull a shot, the group temperature slightly rises (we are talking few tenths of a C), the offset is high and you have a declining temperature profile, if it slightly decreases the offset is low and you have an increasing temperature profile. It's not a typo, an increasing temperature of the group indicates a declining water temperature profile because group and water are exchanging heat, so if the group heats up the water cools down and vice versa.

mine turned up to be approximately 8 C

if you have set it at 5 C I suspect you are currently using a slightly rising temp profile


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

rusty pie said:


> mine turned up to be approximately 8 C


 I think I'll probably go with the same when mine turns up and see how I go from there


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I'm just a simple coffee lover and unlikely to post a detailed analyses of the machine, puck and shots. Many thanks Dave and Paolo for this beautiful creation.

Followed Dave's guide to the dot. Fired up the machine. The pump did not run. The brew boiler must have been full. No sooner I drew some hot water, than the pump kicked in. The lever wasn't difficult to pull with one hand.

We have been regularly drinking espresso from coffee shops during the last one month, which we hated them thanks to brewed coffee at home.

Mystery 14 - because I still have another 200g in my coffee vac. The group head was 93.5C, brew boiler 101.5, service was off, filled the stock with 20g of finely ground Mystery 14 coffee on the JX pro.

The PI - waited for 25-30 secs; hardly saw the bar pressure above 0 (I do not know why). Raised the lever, which did not require any assistance. The bar pressure hit 10.75. There was no doughnut extraction. The extraction was even, with some channelling towards the middle to the end of extraction. There were a few tiny drops of liquid on one side of the puck. The cross-section of the puck was clean and even.

I stuck to Dave's style of puck preparation, which I watched in one of his videos. The mystery 14 wasn't to our liking, when we brewed. The flavour, the body, the notes and the sweetness were stunning when we pulled a shot. We neither had these in the brewed version of the inexpensive beans nor in the coffee shops. The espresso from Evo was different. The best espresso in 9 months and the first espresso pulled at home in as many months.

I still have a mountain to learn and experiment., I think, I will grab a WDT tool and a Tor tamper. I feed the machine with Osmio Zero and did not add any bicarb.

My tiny question are as follows:

1: What is this brown patch on the circlip edges? I saw this before pulling my first shot. I pulled only one today.

2: Why the bar did not raise or hardly raise above 0 during PI?

3: Why the pump did not run, after the machine was switched on - were the boilers full? The tiny nuts behind the lever do touch.

4: I saw briefly a code AL11, which disappeared as soon as I pushed the supply pitcher further inside. What does this code mean please ?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee AL11 is low water supply. You have to make sure that the plastic pipes in the reservoir are not curled and extend as far into the reservoir as they ought to......if that makes sense! The pump would only run if either needing primed or the boilers required water. Chances are when testing at the factory they made no attempt to empty the boilers prior to shipping. NO idea about the bar pressure as I have not experienced that. If the shot pulled ok then it cannot be the grind being too coarse. If it continues to happen though, needs thought about. @DavecUK should be able to answer point 1!

May I extend a warm welcome to the family!


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Congrats on your new machine! It looks shiny and by what you have shared is fully capable to take your taste buds to the next level.

The small niggling things I hope would be ironed out in not time.

Enjoy!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I'm just a simple coffee lover and unlikely to post a detailed analyses of the machine, puck and shots. Many thanks Dave and Paolo for this beautiful creation.
> 
> Followed Dave's guide to the dot. Fired up the machine. The pump did not run. The brew boiler must have been full. No sooner I drew some hot water, than the pump kicked in. The lever wasn't difficult to pull with one hand.
> 
> ...


 Congrats!! So happy for you!

The journey is full of pleasant surprises and humbling moments. It's truly a work of art that rewards study and appreciation.

Have fun, my friend!


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I've finally remembered to take a photo of the puck after a shot without circlip. The screen has started to fall off so I've put back in the circlip and I'll take another photo of the puck next time to check if this actually makes any difference.

It seems pretty homogeneous, the darker spot it's just a little flake of coffee that fell off when I have knocked out the puck.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Question out there for the more knowledgeable: what's the difference on the output of having a longer preinfusion at lower pressure (eg 15 sec at 1.5 bar) compared to shorter PI at higher pressure (eg 5 sec at 2.2 bar)?

I have used these values because it's approximately what I have observed it takes to see puck sweating with the Evo.


----------



## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

I'm really enjoying the evolution of the Evo.
I reckon I'd be looking at a group buy of one of these types of circlip and ditching that stock one.

https://www.smalley.com/custom-parts/ring-options


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Second shot with the circlip in - I cannot see any difference, no dark spots in this case either. Forgot to mention that I'm dosing 18g in the 32mm IMS basket, so there is plenty of headroom between puck and screen.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Outstanding looking pucks Rusty.

I tried 2 shots this morning with 96C brew boiler temp/88C group temp (8C offset). I watched the temp on the group while pulling and it did not move much (0.2-0.3C) so I think this is the equilibrium you guys are talking about.

However for me, the temp is too high still. So I will have to go down from here.

19g in 32mm IMS.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Same beans, tightened the grind, 20g, I was a couple of seconds late pulling the shot out at 6 bar - ~5.75. The PI bar pressure did spike this am to just above 1.5. The shot weighed at 43g. Loved the espresso.

I will be replacing the circlip, whose colourisation doesn't look good.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee I've just ordered a couple of different size in SS, the discolouration is definitely the circlip starting to rust, it's the same on mine.

Thanks @Denis S, I use the most basic puck preparation which would probably make most purists cringe&#8230;&#8230;. but I seem to get decent results.

I grind directly into the portafilter with a sette 270wi, then tap the pf very gently radially with the fingers to flatten the coffee mound, and single tamp with a traditional tamper. Voila!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> I've just ordered a couple of different size in SS, the discolouration is definitely the circlip starting to rust, it's the same on mine.


 Yeah. I also thought it's probably rusting. Would you mind sharing the link please? Thx


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Pasturemaster said:


> I'm really enjoying the evolution of the Evo.
> I reckon I'd be looking at a group buy of one of these types of circlip and ditching that stock one.
> 
> https://www.smalley.com/custom-parts/ring-options


 Great find!

Let me know if you go ahead with an order. There are several styles there that look like there would be less interference than the OE circlip.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee It's just eBay stuff, there's literally thousands of Chinese suppliers of SS circlips, this is the one I have used:

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/383979635003

I have ordered 47, 48 and 50 mm to find the easiest size to remove/install


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Okay, a few hundred g of coffee more (I have a cheap bean here to try different things) it seems the simple you go the better.

I was doing a lot of WDT/puck prep before but it seems the best for me and my grinder is to grind directly into the portafilter with a funnel, and then tap 2-3 times and tamp on the bplus. The shots are getting more even now and the taste is indeed better.

This is a peru washed I roasted taste like pear and caramel.

















https://streamable.com/ih5r7j


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Also the part you are looking for might be in stock here (please check the size):

https://www.123bearing.eu/accessory-internal-circlip-CIRCLIP-INT-47-INOX


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The steam power is just ridiculous. I had like maybe 180-200g of milk ready and after 5-6 sec I had to stop it cause it was ready. WTF?

Take into consideration my wife never drinks milk and I never use milk in coffee drinks. So I drink 3-5 milk coffee drinks a year. My experience on latte art is 0. The machine is truly a tank.

My wife told me it looks like a rolls royce (shinny, huge, and boxy) and that I should sell the decent asap cause it looks so cheap.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Pasturemaster said:


> I'm really enjoying the evolution of the Evo.
> I reckon I'd be looking at a group buy of one of these types of circlip and ditching that stock one.
> 
> https://www.smalley.com/custom-parts/ring-options


 exactly the type of thing I've been looking at...inspired by, this when I lay in bed, staring at it..


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I recon these might work, on ebay: https://tinyurl.com/f6hu5v7u


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

is this any good ?

50 mm split ring 316 SS


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> is this any good ?
> 
> 50 mm split ring 316 SS


 What for? Even if it fit, how would you get it out. Maybe Shrek could use it for a wedding ring 😂


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Here's one that I found that ticked the important boxes for me:

https://www.prospectfastener.com/DHO-48SG

1. Exact fit - 51,5mm OD, 48mm ID internal circlip, as specified in LF Product Catalog for LSM Leva, PN 1250116

2. Food safe - Passivated martensitic EN 1.4122 stainless steel, required in surgical instruments and implants

The manufacturer is Rotor Clip which operates in many countries including the UK and Germany so inquire away!

Unfortunately for me in the US, they are only available in quantities of 10 or higher. Shipped to me is about US$ 80 for the lot of 10. But I have no need for more than 2 so short of a group buy interest, I will continue looking.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@SL01 That ones too small, you want a 50mm


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @SL01 That ones too small, you want a 50mm


 @DavecUK I measured it on my Evo and although difficult to photograph and measure at the same time from underneath, I am pretty sure the internal diameter of the circlip is well under 48mm when the circlip is seated and compressed into the groove, confirming - to me at least - that the J-48 spec on the LF Products is good.

Attached are 2 feeble attempts at taking photos to show this. While the readings on the calipers are different, they are closer to 48mm than 50mm. 50mm may well fit but more compression will be needed to fit it in.

Please pardon me for the poor quality photos and as always, all challenges are welcome!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> What for? Even if it fit, how would you get it out. Maybe Shrek could use it for a wedding ring 😂


 He may not prefer this! 😄

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/internal-circlips/73204-HIC-50-A2


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@SL01 your measuring the wrong bit....it's the outside edge of the diameter when fitted!

I think the rebate for the circlip is sized for a 52mm, but IMHO I think a 50 would be less tight and better


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @SL01 your measuring the wrong bit....it's the outside edge of the diameter when fitted!
> 
> I think the rebate for the circlip is sized for a 52mm, but IMHO I think a 50 would be less tight and better


 @DavecUK I measured the internal diameter with it installed in the group to see how much it deviated from the 48mm ID spec of the LF products part which has been sold for years as a suitable replacement for LSM Leva groups. Various measurements I took show it to be >1,5mm compressed, and that validated not only the ID of 48mm but the OD of 51.5mm appears to be good. The only problem with the LF products part, of course, is that it's zinc-on-iron which is not really food safe.

Using a 50mm internal circlip should work also but I simply do not know. In any case, a 50mm circlip would need more compression and I am always wary of those pesky plier tips slipping so less coercion is a good thing.

My circlip pliers just shipped so I currently have no idea what the circlip in my Evo measures when it is in its uncompressed state. Perhaps @The Systemic Kid would not mind removing his and checking both its ID and OD?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@SL01








2mm thick








d3 measurement (unfitted diameter) 55.5, to 54.8









thickness at back about 5.5









What I think would be a better fit









what I think vs what's actually fitted.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

@DavecUK Got it!

Now I know what you mean by "50mm". I was chasing after a food-safe alternative to the "J-48" LF products part because I know it works. With your photos and tables, I completely understand what you are commending now. Pictures are worth thousands of words for sure!

Your table shows a d-nominal 50mm to be:

s = 2mm

d3 = 54.2mm

b = 4.6mm

Look what I found as shown below:

s = 2mm

d3 = 54.37mm

b = 4.61mm

incidentally, its ID = 47.72mm. It must be my lucky day - thanks Dave!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

I've got a shipment coming in next few days - hope they are correct as there are 50 of them. They are stainless steel. If they are the right fit - Evo members are welcome to one or two if they want.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@The Systemic Kid It was my best guess...hope I was right


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Bear in mind that circlips are normally used to hold in place ball bearings in machinery, so the uncompressed diameter is designed to give enough compression to resist a certain amount of axial force, while in our case it's only holding the weight of the screen so only a few grams (mine stays in place even without circlip sometimes). The stock is probably an M50, but I'm pretty confident the M48 will be fine, possibly the M47 too. The smaller the ring, the easier it will be to remove it for cleaning. I've ordered all 3 sizes so I'll report on which one fits the best when they get here.

The stock screen, now replaced with an IMS, had already a number of holes fully or partially occluded after a few weeks of use (mostly around the edge), so regular removal for cleaning seems to be recommended.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hmmm, going the minimalist obstruction approach - trim down an old portafilter basket retaining spring??

It doesn't need to do much - stop the screen falling out and that is about it


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

SL01 said:


> @DavecUK Got it!
> 
> Now I know what you mean by "50mm". I was chasing after a food-safe alternative to the "J-48" LF products part because I know it works. With your photos and tables, I completely understand what you are commending now. Pictures are worth thousands of words for sure!
> 
> ...


 I'm in the US so if you find the right surgical grade clip count me in if you want to do a group buy.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> I'm in the US so if you find the right surgical grade clip count me in if you want to do a group buy.


 Assuming 50mm nominal is the right size, I found the surgical steel model after the clarification rounds with @DavecUK at McMaster. After comparing specs, the ones at McMaster appear identical to the Rotor Clip model DSH-50SG. $4.88 each and no need for a group buy.

https://www.mcmaster.com/98394A496/

Enjoy!


----------



## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> exactly the type of thing I've been looking at...inspired by, this when I lay in bed, staring at it..
> 
> View attachment 59388


 Funny, that was the first thing I saw in a search that looked suitable.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Elephantoplasty said:


> Hmmm, going the minimalist obstruction approach - trim down an old portafilter basket retaining spring??
> 
> It doesn't need to do much - stop the screen falling out and that is about it


 I cannot believe I didn't think about that! 🤦‍♂️


----------



## Ciprian75 (Jul 4, 2021)

Finally at home and working


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Ciprian75 said:


> Finally at home and working
> 
> View attachment 59445


 Congratulations! Welcome to the club! Let us know your first impressions!


----------



## Ciprian75 (Jul 4, 2021)

I must get use to it, it's my first big lever


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I have to slow down the coffee consumption cause it's affecting me too much. I really can't make 10-15 shots a day as much as I want.

Here is one coffee that was left in the freezer for some time with valve sealed. It's a nordic filter roast on Loring, Kenya washed by Beansmiths. This bean was tested on ultra+ssp hu98mm/ g-iota with brew burrs, and bentwood. I did not manage to tame down the astringency on the decent so I left it here.

I tried yesterday a first shot with it on g-iota/brew burrs and the results were much much better. I strongly believe now that a shot at low pressure will bring out more acidity (fresh fruit juice) and a shot at high pressure will tame down that acidity and bring out more sweetness, ballance and ripped cooked fruits. As others observed the Leva shots are different and less of those high screaming acidity notes (it's from the 10.5 bar thing).

Here is the Kenya I had trouble with, 19g in 32mm ims basket, with bplus. First shot, so it was a guess of grind size and the puck prep is not the most perfect, but taking into consideration how light the beans are I am more than happy:

Here is a video with the shot:

https://streamable.com/uzhqa4


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis S said:


> I tried yesterday a first shot with it on g-iota/brew burrs and the results were much much better. I strongly believe now that a shot at low pressure will bring out more acidity (fresh fruit juice) and a shot at high pressure will tame down that acidity and bring out more sweetness, ballance and ripped cooked fruits. As others observed the Leva shots are different and less of those high screaming acidity notes (it's from the 10.5 bar thing).
> 
> Here is the Kenya I had trouble with, 19g in 32mm ims basket, with bplus. First shot, so it was a guess of grind size and the puck prep is not the most perfect, but taking into consideration how light the beans are I am more than happy:


 This is exactly what @The Systemic Kid (Patrick) found with his light roasted coffees. Huge difference to his previous lever (Londinium), because of the higher pressures at the start and during the shot rather than a 7 ish bar peak quickly dropping to 4-5 bar for much of the shot.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Shot video looked really good BTW


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It is too late for coffee today but I had a few shots to see what happens (I dont drink coffee after 4, so they go the sink).

Got the removal circlip tool today later, and took out the clip/shower screen. You will not be able to flush w/o the screen in place because the water goes everywhere, on the front panel, drip tray, it's not that bad but it's a mess. You can easily flush with the portafilter in place however.

The shots with the screen off run exactly the same as with the screen on (of course when using the bplus). If you find a replacement part that works for the clip I will probably end up using that.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks for sharing all the info @Denis S

Have you guys tried a decaf yet? Might work well with the Evo Leva too! I'd like to find a good decaf for affogatos and desserts 🍨


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

My circlip pliers arrived today. I removed mine to see what size it is. It measured 53,91mm on the outer diameter and 2mm thick. @DavecUK is correct that a DIN 472 bore size 50 circlip will fit. Thanks, Dave!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@SL01 yes 50mm fits.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

MW11 said:


> Thanks for sharing all the info @Denis S
> 
> Have you guys tried a decaf yet? Might work well with the Evo Leva too! I'd like to find a good decaf for affogatos and desserts 🍨


 I made the mistake of ordering 3 kg of decaf from a single-use roaster - i.e. one that I won't be using again. Arrived 3 weeks post roast date, which isn't ideal for vacuum freezing, nor gives much time to use.

Swiss water processed, the good stuff, but tasted like hot molten sour worms. I couldn't dial it in and I had kilos to experiment with - just dead. Binned it. I felt like apologising to my leva by giving it a coffee enema with quality coffee.

I have put an order in for some decaf green beans that I've ordered a few times before and enjoyed as much as non-decaf, but that was before the lever. And I'm no talented roaster.

I often make ice-cream with espresso - and decaf with that was good too.


----------



## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

shimon said:


> I made the mistake of ordering 3 kg of decaf from a single-use roaster - i.e. one that I won't be using again. Arrived 3 weeks post roast date, which isn't ideal for vacuum freezing, nor gives much time to use.
> 
> Swiss water processed, the good stuff, but tasted like hot molten sour worms. I couldn't dial it in and I had kilos to experiment with - just dead. Binned it. I felt like apologising to my leva by giving it a coffee enema with quality coffee.
> 
> ...


 Speak to the roaster if you haven't. I am sure they will want to do make things right if they can.

David


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

So a friend was here for a nice coffee meeting to check the lever. He also has payed for one and it's in the second batch (delivery expected in September).

I think he was blown away by how good it looks in person and how well it's made.

We pulled some shots (~10) and it was with the shower screen removed. I had 2 beans dialed in on grinder and from the first shot I observed something was a bit changed. It turns out when using the bplus and no shower screen you have less compression in the bplus and you must grind a bit finer, the shots run a bit faster (5-7 sec). There is more acidity and more papery aftertaste too to the shot. Sweetness is diminished.

I put back the shower screen and clip, left the grinders like the above shot and the total shot duration took longer with 7 sec and the taste was much improved. The shot ran slower with more crema and way more sweetness.

So for me the ideal shot now is with stock screen + bplus 19g into ims 32mm basket. The pucks are dry and nice looking, the shots I do them in the 35-42 g output based on the pressure dial.

For the temperature I am at 94.5C boiler/86 C group. For some coffees it's a bit low if you do not preheat the PF. I might go up 1-1.5C but not more.

What is totally different from other machines I have used, is that no matter what burrs and grinder you use, a finer and slower shot will taste better than a turbo shot. If you hit the 10bar+ mark the shot is sweeter and balanced, and has great body-mouthfeel and fruits at my temps, and even if it's a light roast there is a lot of body/crema to the shots. It's not watery at all. The sourness is also not amplified or spiking, there is nice acidity but balanced.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> So a friend was here for a nice coffee meeting to check the lever. He also has payed for one and it's in the second batch (delivery expected in September).
> 
> I think he was blown away by how good it looks in person and how well it's made.
> 
> ...


 @Denis S Congratulations! So happy that as an experienced and learned coffee person you appear to find the Evo a noteworthy new entry.

Attached are couple of photos from today - a 45 sec 18 in 35 out pull with nearly 90% crema in the cup. With body and mouthfeel that lingers on just like a Grand Cru finish, and a switch from the precious wood to the traditional Italian black handles for that "workmanlike" look and feel.

It's been a long journey for my wife and I and we are absolutely delighted with the Evo! Thanks again @Paolo_Cortese and @DavecUK, along with everyone who graciously share their valuable insights, like @Norvin and @The Systemic Kid .

Bon weekend, everyone!


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Denis S said:


> As others observed the Leva shots are different and less of those high screaming acidity notes (it's from the 10.5 bar thing).


 I wonder if what the 10.5 bar peak lever pressure does to the puck is similar to what the LR does to it during the preinfusion phase at 6 bar. After all, taming acidity in light roasts is the same claim that LR proponents make for their machine.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@mathof I have a pal coming down from scorland soon who has an LR24 and a brilliant palate......will be interesting to see what he thinks


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pulled a couple of shots earlier with Black Cat's Ethiopian. Had left this to rest.

First shot was 22 secs and second 55 secs

First was predictably sharper but drinkable - second was over-extracted. For me, Evo shots are at their best in the 25-30sec range.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

mathof said:


> I wonder if what the 10.5 bar peak lever pressure does to the puck is similar to what the LR does to it during the preinfusion phase at 6 bar. After all, taming acidity in light roasts is the same claim that LR proponents make for their machine.


 Chalk and cheese IMO. LR maxes out at just over 8 bar which rapidly declines during extraction. This is not a problem for medium plus roasts which release coffee solubles much more easily than with lighter roasts.

IMO, LR needs the higher PI to compensate for the lack of bar pressure during rest of extraction and the inability to adjust brew temp to taste. You also see LR owners, (me included when I had one) running extractions in excess of 40-45 secs and up to a minute in order to tame acidic notes in lighter roasts which runs the risks of introducing bitter notes from over-extraction. I found, if I pulled shots around 30 secs on my LR, they were too sour/under-extracted for my set up.

I am not sure hitting a dry puck with 6 bar is a good idea - even Reiss suggests there is little point going above 4 bar. But that still a lot of pressure on a dry puck. I am of the opinion that a gentle PI allowing the puck to saturate gently before applying full pressure is the way to go.

On the Evo, I can pull shots, once dialled in, around 25-30 secs which are big on fruit notes without ensuing sharp sourness. Personally, I don't see any point in extending extraction beyond 30 secs on my set up as the example I give above shows.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> I strongly believe now that a shot at low pressure will bring out more acidity (fresh fruit juice) and a shot at high pressure will tame down that acidity and bring out more sweetness, ballance and ripped cooked fruits. As others observed the Leva shots are different and less of those high screaming acidity notes (it's from the 10.5 bar thing).


 👍


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

You are all not counting the preinfusion in the 30 secs right? Timer starts at first drip so counting preinfusion it's more like 40-45 sec total time?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

gus6464 said:


> You are all not counting the preinfusion in the 30 secs right? Timer starts at first drip so counting preinfusion it's more like 40-45 sec total time?


 For me - 30 secs including PI.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> For me - 30 secs including PI.


 What sort of preinfusion pressure are you indeed running (sounds like more around the 2.5 bar?)

And similar duration to Denis' in his video at https://streamable.com/uzhqa4 ?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

My Evo is running at factory PI setting of 1.5 bar. Can't, at the moment, see any point in playing around with it as it produces type of shots I am looking for - plenty of fruit notes without any sourness. The EKs is clearly a big factor too as is the ability to fine tune brew temperature.

I could play around infinitely with all the variables but as I am pulling shots that, for me, are stellar, can't see the point. For me, a benchmark is whether a machine can tame Kenyan beans which are the most challenging for espresso. The Evo can and not only that, can do so at shot duration of 30 secs give or take a second or two.

Never understood the thing about using high (up to six bar) PI. Agree with Rao who said six bar isn't PI it's extraction. Evo, from my experiences so far, doesn't need really high PI.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I do not like shots with a long preinfusion, it makes me grind much finer and on my grinders this is always bad. My grinders extract a lot I do not need to soak it more.

12TDS in 1-2 ratio easy.

The time for a shot should be with preinfusion, of course. Whats the point of not counting preinfusion? the moment you start the shot (the preinfusion) you already have water over the coffee.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

All the tools and parts arrived today so I ventured into disassembling and reassembling the piston assembly, and installed the IMS shower screen at the same time.

End to end, it took well under an hour since the piston assembly was very easy to remove from the group, and the tools all worked correctly. The process was made very straightforward by the video @The Systemic Kid made and the @Norvin tool that arrived today. Having all the required parts mis en place was also a real time saver. So here is the list:

1. Piston removal tool by @Norvin with suitable drive pin (screwdriver in my case)

2. Circlip pliers by Knipex PN 48 21 J21

3. 10mm wrench

4. IMS SML200IM shower screen

5. Molykote 111 food-grade lube

6. 1/4" (roughly M6) fiber washers

Since you can watch the entire process on the video from @The Systemic Kid already mentioned earlier on this thread, I will only add my observations not already covered:

1. The piston assembly came well greased as can be seen in the attached photo. The piston seal - the part where the tool fits - was not tightened down, and could be removed with mere finger force. This came as a surprise but as @The Systemic Kid and @Norvin instructed, Teflon tape and Molykote would be added and it was tightened upon assembly.

2. All internal metal parts were machined to a very high quality finish and disassembly and reassembly was a pleasure.

3. After cleaning the group bore, the shower screen was replaced and the photo shows what the IMS screen looks like from the top of the group bore. Note that one part of the circlip is very slightly out of register as it was not completely in the right place. The cause was easy to find and was easily rectified. It is an area of note for reassembly due to the awkward working position.

4. Reassembly was relatively easy because the top of the group bore has a nice chamfer, making it very easy to guide the piston assembly in. Using the twisting motion suggested by @The Systemic Kid, the entire assembly was easily reinstalled. An area of note is the vertical lever to the back of the removed group which must remain nearly vertical for it to be correctly aligned with the valve.

5. After seating the piston assembly, I placed 1/4" fiber washers on the M6 studs before replacing the acorn nuts, and tightening them in the diagonal pattern gently suggested by @The Systemic Kid in his video.

All went swimmingly and the Evo is back in action!!

It was then time to check out the @Norvin dosing ring on my motorized HG-1. I wanted to bypass the HG-1 "blind tumbler" dosing cup and dose directly into the bottomless portafilter. So @Norvin and I discussed whether a different height would would be needed for such a ring. As it turns out, his standard offering works just fine - I used a piece of 1x4 maple underneath the portafilter, place the dosing ring on top then bring it directly under the HG-1 funnel, and it works great. After dosing finished, I remove the dosing ring and portafilter together, shake the whole thing to remove any clumps and then tamp.

The result is an excellent 30 sec pull with 18g in and 35g out, no spray, no channelling, dry 1-piece puck, and crema galore. The syrupy body and slightly peppery note on the classic Neapolitan espresso is its full glory. Gotta love it.

Thanks again to @The Systemic Kid and @Norvin for very clear instructions and tools to make Evo ownership such a joy.

👍 👍


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

SL01 said:


> All the tools and parts arrived today so I ventured into disassembling and reassembling the piston assembly, and installed the IMS shower screen at the same time.
> 
> End to end, it took well under an hour since the piston assembly was very easy to remove from the group, and the tools all worked correctly. The process was made very straightforward by the video @The Systemic Kid made and the @Norvin tool that arrived today. Having all the required parts mis en place was also a real time saver. So here is the list:
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the comments Steve. Perhaps I should clarify that due to the handle having a slight downward incline, the bottomless portatfilter needs to sit on a spacer of about 12mm thickness in order for the handle to clear the work surface so that the portafilter can sit level.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Can any of you who changed from stock shower screen to ims screen tell if you have to grind slightly finer or coarser with the ims screen? I'm talking a tiny bit of difference but there might be.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Can't say I've noticed any major differences between stock and IMS in terms of grinding. Biggest impact is moving from stock big capacity basket to IMS 26 for 18 grm dosing.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*
Forum Member in Australia PMd DaveC with some questions about the Evo. Dave copied me into the conversation as his Evo is not the production model. As the conversation might be helpful to other potential Evo owners, we asked @Phatboy for permission to make the conversation public and he agreed. 
*

Started conversation: yesterday at 12:28

Hi Dave,

I live in Australia and Im about to order an Evo though a Vesuvius distributer.

Hope you can help. Or if you know someone I can direct my questions to, let me know.

My bench is 48mm deep. Im hoping the legs will make contact with my bench and drip tray will over hang.

How tall is it with the lever upright?

I can't seem to find the size of the portafilter, im assuming it's not 58mm.

How long has the Evo been in production?

  

*
DavecUK 
*

Replied: yesterday at 12:42

I've asked the Systemic kid to help answer your question, as I have an Alpha test bed and not a production machine.

The portafilter is the La San Marco 54.3 mm (they might call it 54mm).

It's been in production since about April/May, development started back on October 2020. I gave them the general design for the Evo based on the commercial Vostok and tested the concept for them.

  

*
The Systemic Kid 
*

Replied: yesterday at 13:03

Hi

Just checked my Evo's dimensions.

Height is 78-79cm to top of lever.

Depth (from edge of back panel to front edge of foot is 48.75 cm so you are very tight.

Bear in mind front feet are 3 cm in diameter rendering distance to beginning of foot 45.75 and further edge being 48.75cm. If you sit the Evo on non slip pads (supplied) you should be OK.

Since getting mine at the beginning of June, haven't noticed any movement (slip) on the custom cupboard it sits on.

Recently set up an Evo for my son where it's located on a shiny surface. Using some not stick matting - no slipping at all.

Regards

Patrick

  

*
The Systemic Kid 
*

Replied: yesterday at 13:05

I'm using IMS baskets - 32mm - capacity up to 20grm and 26mm - capacity up to 18grms. Prefer the 26mm for my set up dosing 18grms. I use a Torr 54.4mm tamper which fits perfectly.

Replied: yesterday at 13:08

Thanks Patrick. Does the power lead exit from the back of the machine or underneath? If i can have it sit flush to the wall the machine will just fit.

  

*
The Systemic Kid 
*

Replied: 23 hours ago ·

Power supply plugs in underneath via, for UK, three pin plug. You should be able to route the cable to the side. Back panel is flat - no protrusions.

Replied: 14 hours ago

Thanks Patrick. Are there 2 versions of the Evo? Of the few images online I can see a version with a different steam wand and water outlet. One versions has them under the taps. The other has them up high & over.

The Evo in its completely finished state of development for a long while I presume?

  

*
The Systemic Kid 
*

Replied: 4 hours ago

ACS offer custom options for the Evo. You can choose from a range of steam/hot water arms depending on your preference. You can also specify which side you would like them, e.g. steam on the left or right. There is also a choice of side panels. If you want to place an order, chat to Paolo about preferences.

The Evo is based on tested and tried components. Paolo has loads of experience making espresso machines including levers. The Vostok has been out for several years but is a commercial three or two lever option. Scaling things down to a single lever was a challenge not least of which was stability. Using the vastly superior San Marco double spring meant there is 300kg of force when cocking the lever as opposed to 170kg with the single spring used by the Londinium. The Evo is rock solid - doesn't tip. There is a small amount of flex when you cock the lever but that's to be expected and in no way compromises the machine. Having separate boilers for brew and steam together with PID control including group heaters puts the Evo at the cutting edge of lever development. Being able to set temps for brewing and group temp is a game changer. I can pull shots with really light roasts in the 25-30 sec range including pre-infusion and enjoy bright fruity espresso without sourness or unpleasant acidity. I could not do that on my previous lever. Shots on that one at 25-30 secs would be sour and unpleasant.

It is inevitable that Evo price will increase - I know Paolo is being hit with hikes in component parts.

Sorry for the long PM. If you want a machine that represents fantastic value for money, is built to last, has excellent back support from the manufacturer and makes stonking espresso - you'd be hard pressed to find a better alternative than the Evo.

Cheers

Patrick

Thanks again.

May i ask your thoughts on the Evo's 54mm portafilter, as i never used that size. Any pros and cons?

Hearing the Evo's pump on preinfusion, what does it sound like in real life? Ive heard it on some videos and it sounds really intense.

  

*
The Systemic Kid 
*

Replied: 1 hour ago

Prior to the Evo arriving - hadn't used a 54mm portafilter before. After a couple of months' use - seems as natural to use as the 58mm. Recommend getting a 54.4mm tamper and IMS 26 which is perfect for dosing up to 18grms. I pull 1:2.5 ratios. Evo has a great trick up its sleeve. You watch the group pressure gauge and cut the shot when it declines to 6 bar after which, pressure drops off a cliff. So, 6 bar is the end of the shot. Following this rule will generate accurate ratios of 1:2 - 1:2.5 so much so I have given up weighing out shots which makes shot pulling less complicated.

Pump isn't overly noisy and not as grating as a vibe pump. Had a Londinium LR (rotary pump) and would say the noise of the Evo is comparable to the LR both in terms of loudness and tone. Bear in mind the pump only kicks in to replenish the boilers and during PI to attain whatever PI pressure you have chosen. Mine is on factory setting of 1.5 bar so the pump isn't on for more than few seconds to bring it up to 1.5 bar after which it switches off and the rest of the extraction is silent.

Replied: 1 hour ago

Really interesting.

Last question...

I only just found out about clip that holds the shower screen. Have you left your standard one in, changed it or run it without ?

I presume most levers have a similar clip? Does it actually cause any problems to the puck? Would you recommend the BPlus or its fine without it ?

  

*
The Systemic Kid 
*

Replied: 57 minutes ago

Internal circlip needs a pair of internal circlip pliers to remove. Bit fiddly but not difficult. I fitted an IMS shower screen when I stripped the group for the requested video - not sure it has any impact on espresso compared to the stock one. But as I moved over to IMS portafilter baskets, ordering an IMS shower screen seemed a good idea as it was pretty cheap - just under £15.00 in UK. There's been quite a cul de sac debate over retaining circlips on the forum IMO. I await actual evidence that changing circlip (design) makes any difference. I suspect strongly it doesn't. Which leads me on to using inserts like the BPlus - I really do not get this. I am getting stellar coffee without using one so I don't think I am missing out. I have the had the experience of using Londinium levers since 2103 - latest being the LR. The Evo pulls better shots no question and does so in the 25-30 sec window as I have previously mentioned - something the Londinium couldn't come close to matching.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Can any of you who changed from stock shower screen to ims screen tell if you have to grind slightly finer or coarser with the ims screen? I'm talking a tiny bit of difference but there might be.


 From the same 26M basket setup, 18g does and grind at 8.8 on HG-1, the same 35g shot takes about 10% longer using the IMS screen, with the same body but an ever so slightly more forward pepper taste in the finish. I am reluctant to call the shower screen "more revealing" until more time has passed.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

So it might give more force while flushing to press down more the puck making you grind a tiny bit coarser, or changing how the water goes in the puck before the brew pressure hits.

With no shower screen I would grind finer than with the stock one. My guess is with the ims (because it has more no holed spots) it will give you a greater force in preinfusion, making you grind tiny bit coarser.

Can you post a video with flushing on ims screen? not now, in the next days when you find the time?

I also asked about custom made 50.6mm max 1mm thick mesh shower screens, the material looks like bplus/matrix shower screen but the shipping will be too expensive.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> So it might give more force while flushing to press down more the puck making you grind a tiny bit coarser, or changing how the water goes in the puck before the brew pressure hits.
> 
> With no shower screen I would grind finer than with the stock one. My guess is with the ims (because it has more no holed spots) it will give you a greater force in preinfusion, making you grind tiny bit coarser.
> 
> ...


 @Denis S Below is the link to the requested video of the IMS SML200IM shower screen flushing. Also attached is the puck from the shot I made with it using the 26M basket this morning - the dent in the top of the puck was made by my errant finger. The puck came out in one piece, nearly no residue left behind, fully intact, normal-looking, properly formed with no channeling, spray. No Bplus screen was used.

I am not sure I can draw any conclusions from the flow pattern without a puck in place and under full pressurization.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1CtGv8V3U8B2dkPDSutyCgl0MmyxxITFy/view?usp=sharing


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Okay thank you.

A natural Colombian filter roast by local roaster in Vienna- Nomi.

19g dose (puck prep) bplus on top tamp on it into the 32mm ims basket.

Preinfusion is minimal (6-7 sec) and shot duration ~26 sec total.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Seeing as how people like to post photos of pucks, and then others diagnose, what does this one tell you? I am expecting much joviality!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The bottom of the puck gives you an idea on how well your puck prep is, how well extracted and even the puck is, how is your tamping, water distribution in the machine and so on.

The problem on spring lever, or on Vesuvius evo Leva is that you push ~80g out from a 18-20g dose (so more than 1-4 ratio). Pulling a 1-4 ratio on any machine will empty the puck way more than 1-2 ratio, this means you will deplete the puck more and have no dark brown/dark spots at the bottom. The dark stains are under extracted materials from many things (lack of holes at the edge, a too fine grind, channeling so the water goes on side more, puck prep- lower density on some spots).

Does it mean anything to taste? I can't tell on the Leva because of ratio, but it did impact the taste on my previous machines. A more even extracted puck w/o channeling or side flows always tasted better.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Seeing as how people like to post photos of pucks, and then others diagnose, what does this one tell you? I am expecting much joviality!
> 
> View attachment 59534


 Looks pretty good to me.

P.S. your paper towel is the wrong way round.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S I have to be honest and say my shot preparation, is nothing more than grinding into the Niche dosing cup, using an @Norvin ring to tip it into the pf. A quick side to side shake then tamp. Absolutely nothing else. That is probably shown in the puck, but I very rarely make a coffee I cannot drink!

Many thanks Denis for the explanation


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@The Systemic Kid You spotted it! Did you know, if you join the dots up in a certain way, you can make pictures?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

When I join up dots, I get confused.😄


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> ...... I very rarely make a coffee I cannot drink!


----------



## Hurzman (Jul 5, 2021)

I expect my Evo in September.
The previous reports naturally increase the pleasure and also provide many important tips for handling.
Many thanks to everyone for all the information!

@Denis S
How well does the diameter of the tamper for the IMS baskets fit in your practice? Any limitations or is 54.9 a good fit?
I will also have a new base made for the Bravo Tamper.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> When I join up dots, I get confused.😄


 Ah, it all makes sense now.......


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Hurzman said:


> I expect my Evo in September.
> The previous reports naturally increase the pleasure and also provide many important tips for handling.
> Many thanks to everyone for all the information!
> 
> ...


 The 54.9 mm fits no problem. A 55 mm would also fit and there would be no lifting/vacum if you use the bplus. But if you do not use the bplus I would take 54.8 or 54.9mm max. I use the bravo because it always offers me a feedback on tamping force and the most important a consistent leveled tamp. I struggle to keep the tamper straight always with the normal one.

But take into consideration, the 54.9mm will fit only ims baskets (both 26 and 32mm). For the stock baskets I believe you need 54.1 or 54.2mm max.

The bplus can be found here in various custom sizes and thickness.

For the shower screens since i'm not fully convinced by the ims shower screen I found this (custom size):

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005002963213381.html?

Can anyone measure the interior where the shower screen sits? if it's like a 51mm you could have a 51mm shower screen hammered in, and you could only remove it from above. So no more clips.

I know the stock shower screen is 50.5mm but it's loose it wont stay in.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Got the internal circlip delivered. Used the GU10 SS clips. What do you think ? I flattened the U side. Should I cut this "U side" off please?

I have not pulled a shot. I reckon it won't fall.

Thanks!


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

Is there something wrong with the stock LSM circlip?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Got the internal circlip delivered. Used the GU10 SS clips. What do you think ? I flattened the U side. Should I cut this "U side" off please?
> 
> I have not pulled a shot. I reckon it won't fall.
> 
> ...


 No looks perfect. I'm gratified to see it worked....might be worth opening it out slightly...not sure, just to ensure the back part is slightly under the groove.

If you do give it the "snip", do it at these points


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

This looks good. Just one question, if there is not enough tension the shower screen wont sit flushed with the upper wall and water will bypass a lot at the edges. Does this happen? you can see it when you flush, from under.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Got the internal circlip delivered. Used the GU10 SS clips. What do you think ? I flattened the U side. Should I cut this "U side" off please?
> 
> I have not pulled a shot. I reckon it won't fall.
> 
> ...


 This looks very good. If the ends interfere with the shot, perhaps they can be trimmed. They only need to be long enough for needle-nosed plier jaws to grip onto.

If successful, could you please link the source?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I do not seem to find any water leak around the edges. The shower screen seems to be holding very well in its' place. The protruding U shape definitely helps. I will re-position the clips a little when the GH has cooled off.

I have another one without the U shape.

I will try the alternative and post, should it be better.

Thanks Dave. It does seem to be a nice fit.

Please see the attached video.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> might be worth opening it out slightly...not sure, just to ensure the back part is slightly under the groove.


 Could you explain this please ?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> could you please link the source?


 This is the recommendation from @DavecUK

https://tinyurl.com/f6hu5v7u


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Today I tried my first temperature declining profile.

I have a Mexico Chiapas coffee from Jaleo Cooffee, a micro-roaster form nearby Barcelona, that they told me that was the darkest roast they made, so initially I tried it with group PID at 90 and brew boiler at 98.

But still, a bit of bitterness on the taste and I wanted to eliminate it.

So, next shot I did it with the group heater off and the results were really good! Of course, still on the dark side of espresso here, no surprises, but all the bitter notes are gone and just some nutty and cocoa strong notes, that will go very well with milk


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Could you explain this please ?


 Perhaps in the two areas indicated by the arrows it could be more under the lip, although that could just be the angle of the photo.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Thanks Dave. I couldn't get those areas under. I tried clips in first and the screen later. I am afraid I will bend the screen.

Btw, I pulled a shot. Both the screen and the clip stayed firmly in place, despite the bar pressure briefly hitting 11.

I think it's ok. Hope some one can try and confirm!

Thx


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, as more people receive their Evo's and get to grips with them, then what comes through for me is the fact that if you have bells and whistles then you can play any tune you want, if you have the skills to accompany. There is NO substitute for bells and whistles! In fact, I might start a poll, and ask if the Evo was a lager brand, would it be Carlsberg.....LOL


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> I might start a poll, and ask if the Evo was a lager brand, would it be Carlsberg.....LOL


 Bevertown ! 😊


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Ah, but are they probably the best in the world?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee Ah, but are they probably the best in the world?


 Don't know, tbh! But, I have a taste and they are







????


----------



## Phatboy (Jul 18, 2017)

Hey guys. Newbie here from Oz (would also like to contact the few oz owners on their experience of getting one over here)

How do you set the Pi on the Evo? Do you have to open up the casing and?

Can a max pressure be set and fixed or is it only determined by how much you hold back on the lever?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Phatboy said:


> How do you set the Pi on the Evo? Do you have to open up the casing and?
> 
> Can a max pressure be set and fixed or is it only determined by how much you hold back on the lever?
> 
> ...


----------



## deiadri (Aug 26, 2021)

Sold my Lelit Bianca this morning. Now I have to wait for that monster of a machine to appear on my doorstep. Seems I'm getting to drink a lot of filter in the next weeks 😆.

I'm very excited.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

deiadri said:


> Seems I'm getting to drink a lot of filter in the next weeks


 We have done that for months, which we never regretted.










Welcome to the Evo family!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

deiadri said:


> Sold my Lelit Bianca this morning. Now I have to wait for that monster of a machine to appear on my doorstep. Seems I'm getting to drink a lot of filter in the next weeks 😆.
> 
> I'm very excited.


 Welcome to the forum...it will be worth the wait.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

September is getting closer for the rest of the Batch 2 deliveries....

Exciting!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

As requested


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@The Systemic Kid absolutely fantastic! I simply cannot get over seeing the quality of the parts used in the Evo. It now makes perfect sense why the adapted group and springs the Evo use are so much more expensive than the Fiorenzato group that is often touted around as being the ultimate


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @The Systemic Kid absolutely fantastic! I simply cannot get over seeing the quality of the parts used in the Evo. It now makes perfect sense why the adapted group and springs the Evo use are so much more expensive than the Fiorenzato group that is often touted around as being the ultimate


 @The Systemic Kid Thank you again for the great video and explanation!

@dfk41 You took the words literally out of my mouth - I was just about to express the exact same sentiment! Thank you to you too.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

For those interested in an Evo in 115V, attached picture shows the specification label attached to the crate. Note that it is rated at 11A.

To do so, the machine powers up with the group heaters on constantly, and gives priority to the brew boiler, which reaches temperature (in my case 100°C) in an amazing 2 minutes, then the steam boiler heater comes on. The group heater takes its sweet time and gets to temperature at about the same time as the steam boiler, with the entire machine at temperature in around 16 minutes.

Absolutely a great boon for anyone who NEEDS an espresso / cappuccino first thing in the morning to become human. I explained to the wife that lesser machines and other levers would never be able to get her her cappuccino anywhere near that time and I was richly rewarded for the decision to patiently wait for the 6 long months.

Kudos to all those responsible, again!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@SL01 I'm glad it was worth the wait. There are some people that would like to see the machine fail (even though it was new to market and a big advance on the lever machines currently)...but I'm hoping it's proved too good for that.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @SL01 I'm glad it was worth the wait. There are some people that would like to see the machine fail (even though it was new to market and a big advance on the lever machines currently)...but I'm hoping it's proved too good for that.


 @DavecUK Thank you for your great efforts to make this a reality. The more my wife and I look at the market and what our choices are, the more we are convinced that the Evo is the giant leap forward it will turn out to be. One lever, two boilers, three PIDs, all in glorious stainless steel with a simple and flexible UI to drive it well.

Believe it or not, just this morning, we sat down and reviewed the list of others from La Pavoni's to the LM Leva X and everything in between. Not one can shake the Evo off its high perch for use in a light-duty, but high quality setting. Add to that @The Systemic Kid's great tutorials, any argument against the Evo will tread on very thin ice.

I am quite sure that the electronics and plumbing will be as well thought through and executed since we literally saw it develop with our own eyes. And even if there is a hiccup, this is a great place to come and get it licked.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

SL01 said:


> @DavecUK Thank you for your great efforts to make this a reality. The more my wife and I look at the market and what our choices are, the more we are convinced that the Evo is the giant leap forward it will turn out to be. One lever, two boilers, three PIDs, all in glorious stainless steel with a simple and flexible UI to drive it well.
> 
> Believe it or not, just this morning, we sat down and reviewed the list of others from La Pavoni's to the LM Leva X and everything in between. Not one can shake the Evo off its high perch for use in a light-duty, but high quality setting. Add to that @The Systemic Kid's great tutorials, any argument against the Evo will tread on very thin ice.
> 
> I am quite sure that the electronics and plumbing will be as well thought through and executed since we literally saw it develop with our own eyes. And even if there is a hiccup, this is a great place to come and get it licked.


 You are lucky. The only input I got from my wife was "why are you getting another coffee machine?". She's excited deep down, but hides it well ...


----------



## deiadri (Aug 26, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> You are lucky. The only input I got from my wife was "why are you getting another coffee machine?". She's excited deep down, but hides it well ...


 I can relate.



DavecUK said:


> Welcome to the forum...it will be worth the wait.


 Thank you


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can anyone explain to me, why the Londinium uses 3 seals and that white plastic clip on the piston?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Plastic clip is there to prevent spring catching on the bore.

On the Fiorenzato group, the inlet port, when the lever is in the up position, sits between bottom seal and middle seal. Uppermost seal is there to prevent backwash into the beyond above it.

Top and middle seal can't benefit from grease applied to the bore with the piston raised which is why you need to remove the spring assembly, ideally, every six months or so to re-grease all three seals.

ACS group uses a separate bespoke inlet valve assembly which is why it only needs a single piston seal.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@The Systemic Kid Many thanks for the explanation. But, it begs the question why such a cumbersome method is still in use in lever design when there are obviously better versions out there. Without going down a rabbit hole, does these two types encompass the majority of levers out there or are there lots of alternate designs? I had always just thought, a lever and piston was just that!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @The Systemic Kid Many thanks for the explanation. But, it begs the question why such a cumbersome method is still in use in lever design when there are obviously better versions out there. Without going down a rabbit hole, does these two types encompass the majority of levers out there or are there lots of alternate designs? I had always just thought, a lever and piston was just that!


 The method is used because it's *cheaper* to manufacturer...but it does have a few drawbacks which the group on the Evo doesn't have, but then it costs a lot more for the manufacturers of espresso machines to buy (almost twice as much). *For that extra cost you get a lot more thought in design and materials*. This is not including the group heater cartridges, temp sensors and other special features of the Evo group.



stainless steel internals piston and spring


stainless steel bore wet liner liner (not chrome plated brass)


pressure seal never passes the port, always above it (much improved seal life and performance)


larger swept volume


better pressure profile, especially during last 2/3 of shot when 2 springs are used as opposed to one on the cheaper groups


The ability to have a pressure gauge measuring pressure below the piston (because the pressure seal NEVER passes the port, on the way up or the way down.


Very little to no water washout of lubricant...because the seal is ALWAYS above the port


very easy maintenance because the piston assembly comes apart into 3 pieces, making replacement of the seal and guide ring simple and easy


Lubrication can be done simply by removing shower screen without removing piston.


Less needy for maintenance, especially lubrication, no spring rubbing, or jerky lever and bite point well maintained over time..


The 3 seals is not better, just 3 times the potential for problems and only one of the seals actually has anything to do with creating pressure on the coffee. The other two are simply a cheaper method to create a water seal.

P.S. Seal passing the port is not a great thing and is why LSM stopped doing that.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

here is a *very simplified* animation of how hot water enters the respective groups.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Not quite animations like @DavecUK (!) but some supplementary real-time power consumption figures for those interested in 115V Evo machines.

The 2 screenshots below are from the app connected to the smart switch the Evo is powered up with.

1. Picture one shows the group and brew heaters on after initial power-up, drawing 8A at 120V.

2. Picture two shows the group and steam heaters on after the brew heater has reached the set temp of 100°C and is switched off, drawing 12.7A at 119V.

Both scenarios fit well into a normal 15A circuit common in US 115V household circuits.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The power draw is also for short periods only...Overall I think my Evo with the brew boiler and group on used about 1.1kW over 14-15 hours


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> The power draw is also for short periods only...Overall I think my Evo with the brew boiler and group on used about 1.1kW over 14-15 hours


 I am espresso-only once a day and my wife is cappuccino twice a day. Then friends invade from time to time. The app will chart the usage over months and years so the long term trends will be interesting.

If there was a change to be made, it would be more powerful group heaters so they warm up faster for those espresso-only occasions. They currently take as long as the steam heaters to get to 125°C to get to 92°C.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

SL01 said:


> If there was a change to be made, it would be more powerful group heaters so they warm up faster for those espresso-only occasions. They currently take as long as the steam heaters to get to 125°C to get to 92°C.


 The group heaters are at the limits of what's doable based on the rate heat can be sinked into the group (which has a huge mass). Because the heaters have to have very accurate PID control, they have to be of a certain type and there is a limit to the heat transfer rate...exceed that limit and the elements will overheat and fail. They currently run at 200 - 220W..taking 15 minutes to heat the group.

*The group is a lot hotter than a group on an HX lever* (it's at brew temperature), simply because it's not designed to "cool" the brew water down. It's designed to have a stable, rising or falling profile. Below is a thermosyphon group, try seeing how long you can hold your hand on the Evo group when it's warmed up!









Groups based on an HX system are inherently unstable, because of the way they work. It's just physics.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> The group heaters are at the limits of what's doable based on the rate heat can be sinked into the group (which has a huge mass). Because the heaters have to have very accurate PID control, they have to be of a certain type and there is a limit to the heat transfer rate...exceed that limit and the elements will overheat and fail. They currently run at 200 - 220W..taking 15 minutes to heat the group.
> 
> *The group is a lot hotter than a group on an HX lever* (it's at brew temperature), simply because it's not designed to "cool" the brew water down. It's designed to have a stable, rising or falling profile. Below is a thermosyphon group, try seeing how long you can hold your hand on the Evo group when it's warmed up!
> 
> ...


 @DavecUK Thanks for the detailed explanation. It all makes sense. All the heaters work well together as they are because what's in the cup is glorious.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> @The Systemic Kid absolutely fantastic! I simply cannot get over seeing the quality of the parts used in the Evo. It now makes perfect sense why the adapted group and springs the Evo use are so much more expensive than the Fiorenzato group that is often touted around as being the ultimate


 I'm sure you've seen the old LSM group factory assembly video - amazing the time it takes to hand assemble - popping each race bearing in place, that's when I became a fan. The groups alone cost me around USD600 each 5 years ago, and that was through a pricing error that the supplier told me they'll honour but can't afford to give warranty. It was about USD1000 from US suppliers! Shear good old-fashioned quality.


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> Below is a thermosyphon group, try seeing how long you can hold your hand on the Evo group when it's warmed up!


 I use the LSM's lever itself as a thermometer - when I can't touch it an inch from the top, it's reached its stable temperature. Wouldn't dare touch the group itself and was super surprised to read about the L1 (although I get it).


----------



## shimon (May 31, 2016)

SL01 said:


> Not quite animations like @DavecUK (!) but some supplementary real-time power consumption figures for those interested in 115V Evo machines.


 What's your average daily energy use if you have it - as it I see a great thing about the group heaters; being so quick there's no need to leave the machine on all day.

For comparison, my Izzo lever is on for about 15 hours/day and uses 3.5 kWh in that time = USD160/yr in electricity. Plus with the grouphead temperature being reliant on boiler temperature, its large 5L boiler is needed to help with thermal stability. But that comes at a power cost compared the more efficient group heater/PID approach.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

https://espressonero.coffee/ACS-Vesuvius-Evo-Leva-Siebtraeger-Espressomaschine-Dualboiler-inox-edelstahl-Holzaplikationen/ACS-VES-EVO-LEVA


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> https://espressonero.coffee/ACS-Vesuvius-Evo-Leva-Siebtraeger-Espressomaschine-Dualboiler-inox-edelstahl-Holzaplikationen/ACS-VES-EVO-LEVA


 proving what a fantastic deal people who purchased direct got, sure you have to do your own maintenance, but if prepared to do that...a good saving. A friend once set to me (about a car) 2/3 the car for half the money. I think of the Evo price you guys paid as 2/3 the price for twice the machine 😁

The price with the retailer is probably realistic, especially when looking at the significantly higher price of machines that are no where near as expensive to construct as an Evo. I won't say competing machines, because it has no competition.

Spoookily enough their price is almost identical to another lever machine before it's recent a price reduction.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> A friend once set to me (about a car) 2/3 the car for half the money. I think of the Evo price you guys paid as 2/3 the price for twice the machine 😁


 Think some journo - probably Clarkson - said that about the Audi TT compared to the Audi R8. How to save a lot of money and still get a top dollar sports car. Same applies to the Evo compared to the competition.


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Stop it everyone you're feeding my coffee habit..note to self "stop buying coffee machines "


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Think some journo - probably Clarkson - said that about the Audi TT compared to the Audi R8. How to save a lot of money and still get a top dollar sports car. Same applies to the Evo compared to the competition.


 Except that it's how to get an Audi R8 for TT money. 😁

@GrahamSPhillips I feel your pain...I also don't have an Evo!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

shimon said:


> What's your average daily energy use if you have it - as it I see a great thing about the group heaters; being so quick there's no need to leave the machine on all day.
> 
> For comparison, my Izzo lever is on for about 15 hours/day and uses 3.5 kWh in that time = USD160/yr in electricity. Plus with the grouphead temperature being reliant on boiler temperature, its large 5L boiler is needed to help with thermal stability. But that comes at a power cost compared the more efficient group heater/PID approach.


 The smart plug that can handle the Evo's 14A current draw arrived only yesterday so there is insufficient data for an average. With only half a day, this morning's routine with a casual, not-anally-monitored warm up for both of our drinks is at 0.72 kWh. So including the anticipated evening routine, we are trending towards no more than 1.2kWh for the day.

Sounds like the Evo will be significantly more energy efficient than the Izzo Leva, by about 2/3's, maybe?!


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Extraction in slo mo complete with solar flares. This particular bean has spritzed every time I've pulled shots with it. Thought I'd share the experience.

Jump to 2min 25sec to where PI starts


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

@SL01did you replace the basket c-clip with the one you linked from mcmaster?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Having seen the Evo today referred to as "I guess your choice depends on whether you want to be a Beta tester at your own expense."

I thought it only right and fair to have this malicious rumour put to bed for once and for all. The best way of doing this is to ask @DavecUk to explain in his own unique way, why this statement is factually incorrect. Of course, I am sure he will oblige


----------



## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Having seen the Evo today referred to as "I guess your choice depends on whether you want to be a Beta tester at your own expense."
> 
> I thought it only right and fair to have this malicious rumour put to bed for once and for all. The best way of doing this is to ask @DavecUk to explain in his own unique way, why this statement is factually incorrect. Of course, I am sure he will oblige


 Hey Dave,

I thought that was in respect to the Oddysee Espresso Argos pre order gamble. I didn't read that as anything about the Evo.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> @SL01did you replace the basket c-clip with the one you linked from mcmaster?


 @gus6464 I did replace the circlip with a 50mm in stainless steel and it went in without a hitch. But it was not from McMaster. As @DavecUK showed in his post on page 115 from Aug 17, any 50mm circlip that conforms to the DIN 472 standard should work. I had one on hand, did the measurements, and you can see my comments.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@steveholt hi, as it was on the Evo thread I probably wrongly, read it the other way


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

steveholt said:


> Hey Dave,
> 
> I thought that was in respect to the Oddysee Espresso Argos pre order gamble. I didn't read that as anything about the Evo.


 Another forum carries a thread about the Evo ( a few excerpts below). @steveholt *is quite correct that the most recent comment about being a Beta tester appeared to be directed at the Argos Lever* soon to come to market. They seem quite defensive of new machines that might be in competition with anything produced by Fracino for Londinium?

*David can be forgiven for thinking it was directed at Evo, because a similar beta tester comment was levelled at Evo buyers some time ago. I suppose it is time to address the older Beta tester comments.*

ACS Vostok dual boiler technology is over 6 years old and mature. A 1 group version, didn't scale down to a prosumer kitchen size machine, with internal tank, pump etc..*Thanks to someone deeply involved with Londinium, I was strongly motivated to help ACS make the Evo a reality, I wouldn't have bothered otherwise.* Initially I just wanted it to be better than a Londinium, but because that wasn't much of a challenge, I concentrated on making it excellent

ACS had a set of proven and reliable components that could rapidly be designed and be assembled into a great machine

*The unknowns were of minimal risk*:



Pressurestat for prosumer use with a higher pressure range, allowing for more fine-tuning of preinfusion


The Gear pump.


I'd measured everything, knew it would all fit and persuaded ACS to make an Alpha test bed, proof of concept (thrown together out of scrap parts), for fine tuning of the concept. It ensured production machines were easily maintainable, compartmentalised and use really high quality materials.

Patrick's videos/Photos (great work) show, the sheer quality of the group and the clean inside of* production machines*...they look fantastic.

*My 20 years of experience was given freely to help ACS make the best dual boiler lever they could and something outstanding for the consumer (I've not been paid or given a production machine).* I like to be part of things that change and drive the market. ACS Evo has no real competition on price, performance or quality in the Lever space. You can pay a lot more and get much, much less.

*I hope none of you "early adopters" feel like "beta testers" as you have one of the best value for money, most advanced, high quality and innovative prosumer levers on the market today. *Dual boilers, actively heated groups, PID control will become the expected standard for new age levers. I was proud to be a small part of that. In the same way as I was with prosumer dual boilers 18 years ago.

*I can only say...I did my best...so far the feedback seems to show we got it right, especially the feedback in the comments below! 😁*


----------



## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

I honestly do not understand how people can get so hot under the collar about espresso machines. The last commentator is particularly vitriolic. I've seen some of his efforts before, absolutely bizarre behaviour for a grown man.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK Thanks for the great work. Can't imagine, I ended up with an amazing machine like this. I lurked this forum last year, in search of a decent machine. Since joining, I kept moving my goal post looking for something, which I wasn't finding. I then fixed my eyes on two great machines - Minima or Bianca, intentionally staying clear of the Vostok threads here and elsewhere as they were too big to read. When I did, I knew - with no serious technical background - this is it!

You and David knew I was debating Minima vs Evo. Because, my heart said Evo and the mind called out Minima for the ££ & the home minister reasons. The quality, the design, brain behind the project and the choice were never in doubt.

Personally, I don't care about what time-wasters think. We don't have time for that, do we ? 😊

They may call me what they feel like. I have too thick a skin for that. What I do with my hard-earned money, is nobody's business.

In my job, we design and produce solutions, which are mostly modern and innovative. They do carry elements of risks. We get to the finish line, quite successfully every time. Because, we use tested and proven technologies under-pinned by decades of technical and domain experiences and skills. Most of these solutions are the by-product of co-innovation.

So, why should this industry be different?

In summary, Well done Dave and Paolo! 👏


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @DavecUK Thanks for the great work. Can't imagine, I ended up with an amazing machine like this. I lurked this forum last year, in search of a decent machine. Since joining, I kept moving my goal post looking for something, which I wasn't finding. I then fixed my eyes on two great machines - Minima or Bianca, intentionally staying clear of the Vostok threads here and elsewhere as they were too big to read. When I did, I knew - with no serious technical background - this is it!
> 
> You and David knew I was debating Minima vs Evo. Because, my heart said Evo and the mind called out Minima for the ££ & the home minister reasons. The quality, the design, brain behind the project and the choice were never in doubt.
> 
> ...


 Well said, sir!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

davril said:


> I honestly do not understand how people can get so hot under the collar about espresso machines. The last commentator is particularly vitriolic. I've seen some of his efforts before, absolutely bizarre behaviour for a grown man.


 When there are no facts to draw on, or reasoned discussion....some people resort to that type of behaviour when defending a position, or attacking an idea/concept. Interesting that he feels the need to attack it with so much vigour?

There is a lot of uncontrolled emotion and some real issues behind those posts, with no facts or reason. The upside, he isn't on here any more and I think he must be in his element over there.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I have no idea what Paolo might've done to offend them to go that far! Are they the competitors? They probably sell a similar product! Otherwise I can't justify their behavior at all! 
They got nothing in this and the Evo Leva is by far the most interesting espresso machine in 2021. For 2400£ shipped to the UK it's way better for UK costumers than the 2800£ without shipping single boiler LR24. It's unmatched on both design & price $$. 
thanks Paolo and Dave for making a dream come true.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MW11 You forgot the VAT on the other machine, it's all Ex VAT prices on the site..😉


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MW11 said:


> For 2400£ shipped to the UK it's way better for UK costumers than the 2800£ without shipping single boiler LR24. It's unmatched on both design & price $$.


 And therein lies the problem I suspect. Have you wondered why Londinium reduced the UK price of the LR24 at a time when they had intended to increase prices by 5%. Yet to certain people, the Evo is a POS not worthy of any mention except to ridicule.......obviously the management do not agree with that!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)




----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

I think this is just as appropriate as "*The First Rule of Italian Espresso Machine Making*". @The Systemic Kid - don't show this to your son with the Ferrari - he may have a coronary.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I might say something not very popular, but I really don't understand why we have to keep talking about comparisons with other machines or opinions on the Evo expressed by people who have never been within a 10 miles radius of one.

The Greek fabulist Aesop described the attitude of the critics in the fable "The Fox and the Grapes" around 2500 years ago, so nothing new under the sun&#8230;..

I personally think it's an outstanding coffee machine (I'm confident all the other owners share the same opinion) *in its own right*, not because how much better it is compared to others.

For the past month I have been drinking the best espresso I've had in my whole life. A friend who has been in the coffee scene in a professional setting for many years came over one evening to have a look at the machine and to help me out refining my recipe, and after only a couple of minor adjustments, he too said it was up with the best coffee he has ever tasted, even when compared to most specialty coffee shops.

To me reacting to all the stuff which gets posted online only serves the purpose of validating such unfounded opinions, it's a waste of time, and it's taking up space in the thread making harder to follow the posts about the machine itself and its use, which I find very useful and enjoyable to read.

Also, this hostility between different brands to me seems to be only created by coffee enthusiasts rather than the actual machine designer or manufacturers, the only person with a real stake in this discussion (Paolo Cortese) seems to keep pretty quiet about this, so maybe ACS and other manufacturers don't really feel to be in hostile competition with each other, but rather to be in the same game of designing and producing good coffee machines, and that there is room for everyone?

Just my two cents, I don't mean to offend or belittle anyone's opinion.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Light roast Izuba washed from Crankhouse. I was exchanging a lot of private notes with SL01.

I have been Clever brewing this for a while. 20g:225g, 30 mins. Amazing notes - Orange Marmalade, Brown Sugar and Cranberry. I love this roast as a black no sugar. My daughter finds this very rich to drink. It's not my wife's favourite as she isn't used to drinking lighter roasts; in fact, we aren't! This roast type is new to us and we will definitely try more of this.

I pulled a few great shots including this morning. Great to drink as a black but the notes were too pronounced. I dilute it with Osmio hot water before tasting. It is still not my hot favourite to drink with milk. I added an 1/8th of a tsp of brown sugar this morning, which transformed the coffee with milk.

Here are my shot details.

IMS shower screen, IMS 26 and GU10 clips.

1.475 turns on JX pro, 94C Group, 101C Brew, 20.1g in, 42.2g out, pulled the cup at 6 bar - where it dives to zero from >10.5 bar. I have brought it down from 95C/102C. I might tighten the grind a notch finer as I thought the pour was a tad quicker at 27 secs for 20.1g.

WDT, puck rake, tsp, tamp using my cheap tamper. I need to buy a 55mm tamper, as there is clearly a few mm gap on the IMS26 basket.

I had a couple of drops on the cup in 5-6 seconds. The shot lasted 27 seconds. The dark circles are the edges of the IMS basket, where there are no holes. I thought there was no clear signs of channelling and the extraction was even. PFA photo. Sorry, I broke the puck. Also, I'm afraid I didn't shoot a video. May be next time. 😊

Any thoughts and suggestions are most welcome.

I have a question: Should I buy a flat tamper or try and source a levelling tamper please ?









Edit: 

I didn't mean to load 20.1g on IMS26. I was surprised it took it hardly leaving any traces on the screen. A few grains at the edges - that's all. 😊


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee My favourite tamper is the Reg Barber "US Curve" at least that's what it used to be called. It was very very slightly convex. Reg Barber had some problems but I think it's being bought back, so US curve tampers probably still exist.

https://regbarber.com/


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@rusty pie Spot on with your thoughts rusty.....but, it takes two to tango and for a very long time the second dance partner remained in their seat, watching events. I am possibly one of the few who have both an L1 and and an Evo, so am in a position to comment when comparing both machines, yet I do not. I do not feel the need to as long as certain others who have never been within 100 miles of an Evo continue to pour out bile and vitriol


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

There is an unwritten rule when reviewing anything - avoid ad hominem attacks - play the ball not the man/woman. Same applies to equipment review and comments.

There are some who want to see the Evo fail for all manner of reasons - spite, vindictiveness, jealousy etc. Same happened to Reiss at Londinium when he launched the L1 in 2012.

Perfectly OK to critique anything on CFUK - pros/cons etc which is welcomed. Also OK to offer opinion not based on hands on experience providing it's clear that the author is offering opinion - e.g. looks, appearance, spec etc.

Important this thread is not derailed so keep it focused on the Evo.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I think its pretty sad the way people are acting around both machines.

Theres alot gone on in the background, that alot of people dont know and i think the machines are just being used as a vessel to push this disagreement.

I had a londinium l1 and the lr24, ive since moved to a bianca

I will say the londinium had something about it, and when i set it up for the new owner i did miss the way it made coffee,

I did briefly look at the acs lever and the Vesuvius.

The leva visually appeals to me, but the smaller group, the apparent flex and the pump put me off, its a great price though.

If im honest it feels a tad rushed, like it was made to come out before londinium dropped the new lever that will never come.

For some reason londinium especially, its owners are warriors and will fight to tell you how amazing they are, i didn't have that experience. I found the owner a bit abrasive.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> 1. Theres alot gone on in the background, that alot of people dont know and i think the machines are just being used as a vessel to push this disagreement.
> 
> 2. If im honest it feels a tad rushed, like it was made to come out before londinium dropped the new lever that will never come.


 1. Far more than you think you know, don't believe everything you might have read or been told.

2. That statement is *absolutely untrue*...it was nothing to do with any machine Fracino were building for Londinium or any other manufacturer was *about* to launch, and it certainly wasn't rushed. People in the first batches had to wait for their machines, because ACS wanted to make them absolutely right.

Customers now wait because ACS have to wait for parts...people wanting to buy it are not the problem, being able to build them fast enough due to parts availability is.


----------



## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

MW11 said:


> For 2400£ shipped to the UK


 The SRP is 4350EUR which is around 3,730 GBP. Which is almost the same as LR24 and much more then Compressa.

Still beautiful machine, if I would be looking for new machine Leva would be on my shortlist.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

pj.walczak said:


> The SRP is 4350EUR which is around 3,730 GBP. Which is almost the same as LR24 and much more then Compressa.
> 
> Still beautiful machine, if I would be looking for new machine Leva would me on my shortlist.


 When purchased direct as a Londinium is...it's only cost people £2400 delivered, with a 2 year parts warranty. As you already have the LR24, I wouldn't expect you to ever be looking for a new lever. 😁

P.S. The LR24 had a 20% price drop I think, so it's cheaper than your quoted price now.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@pj.walczak Does SRP mean Suggested Retail Price? If so, there is not one. There is a German outfit allegedly advertising it for that but they have no stock as indeed, ACS do not.


----------



## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

Yes, Suggested Retail Price. I did check the price with local reseller in Poland, and they confirmed the 4350 EUR including VAT.

If ACS will support the direct sales model for the next production batch at 2400 GBP delivered, this would be really good deal.

Re: P.S. The LR24 had a 20% price drop I think, so it's cheaper than your quoted price now.

Maybe for UK delivery, for rest of EU the price is still 3,262.60 Ex VAT.

I have the regular LR - was much cheaper .

Back to the topic:

In Vostok you control both the brew boiler water temperature and the group temperature, correct?

How those two factors affects the actual brew temp? Let's say I would like to have a starting brew temperature around 94 C. How you need to set both temperatures to achieve this?

Also, those two settings should allow you to create temperature profiles, more flat when brew water temp and group temp is at similar level, and more declining profile when you make the group cooler, is this correct assumption?

The preinfusion is done with a pump? Is there a way to control the pre-infussion pressure?

And roughly, what would be the coffee volume you can achieve before the pressure drops below 6 bars?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

pj.walczak said:


> 1. In Vostok you control both the brew boiler water temperature and the group temperature, correct?
> 
> How those two factors affects the actual brew temp? Let's say I would like to have a starting brew temperature around 94 C. How you need to set both temperatures to achieve this?
> 
> ...


 1. That's correct, there is no thermosyphon, the group and brew boiler are completely independent. The group has about 220W of heating capability and is the ultimate arbiter of brew temperature. The brew boiler needs to be set a little above the group temperature to achieve a flat profile. For 94C, you would set the group to 94 and the brew boiler from 98 to 102C. This would depend on your environment and how much work you wanted the heaters in the group to do.

2. Yes this is correct. When setting a declining profile, the group temp would determine the floor. You could rejig the PID response if you wanted to change the rate...but that's getting quite advanced.

3. Yes, you simply change the pressurestat setting by removing the top panel (4 screws) and change it. Preinfusion pressure was found to have an insignificant effect on shots produced by the Evo lever group and most people find it works best left at 1.5, to 2.5 bar. It can be raised as high as 4 bar..but that's starting to get close to extraction. The pressure is not meant to be changed on a regular basis.

The owners Manual I wrote can answer a lot of questions https://sway.office.com/pQLa02FN4KX86gkG?ref=Link

The .pdf below gives a rundown on the features as a list. I need to add to the list because it also has

*Stainless wet liner sleeve in bore and stainless steel piston assembly (as opposed to a chromed brass liner and brass piston assembly.. *

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=58239


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Out of curiosity, while I'm (eagerly) waiting for ACS to resume operations and ship my Evo Leva, why is it that the boiler temperature must be set above the group temperature for a flat profile ?

The heat loss in the piping between the insulated boiler and the group might be a factor, but I'd expect it to be small... Is this then due to the arrival of cold water in the boiler while the water chamber gets filled ? Just curious...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Eiffel said:


> Out of curiosity, while I'm (eagerly) waiting for ACS to resume operations and ship my Evo Leva, why is it that the boiler temperature must be set above the group temperature for a flat profile ?
> 
> The heat loss in the piping between the insulated boiler and the group might be a factor, but I'd expect it to be small... Is this then due to the arrival of cold water in the boiler while the water chamber gets filled ? Just curious...


 there is some losses from the boiler to the group, then there will be a temperature delta across the group that evens out when water fills the space.

To clarify a bit more, part of the group furthest from the heaters will be cooler, physics makes that so, this means heat is sinked away from the water when it enters....if the heaters have too much to do, the temp might drop.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Thread has been dead since Monday. Is everyone with their EVOs just on an espresso coma after pulling countless shots with their machines? 😄

Does anyone know if production will resume this week at ACS?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Thread has been dead since Monday. Is everyone with their EVOs just on an espresso coma after pulling countless shots with their machines? 😄
> 
> Does anyone know if production will resume this week at ACS?


 I've let Paolo enjoy his holiday, but I will speak to him this week. Evo owners are quiet, so I guess it's a good sign that they are just enjoying their machines.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I've let Paolo enjoy his holiday, but I will speak to him this week. Evo owners are quiet, so I guess it's a good sign that they are just enjoying their machines.


 ... or not wanting to distract Paolo while their machines are being built 😉


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Being one of the first batch, the machine just grows on you. It takes a little time to learn it. I drink darker beans so there is less fine tuning to do, but the nice thing is, if you want to play you can......because it is so easy to live with, there is no need to constantly bang on about it!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Thread has been dead since Monday. Is everyone with their EVOs just on an espresso coma after pulling countless shots with their machines? 😄
> 
> ....


 @gus6464 No - much worse. The Evo is the devil incarnate because it reveals the limits of my grinder and that is reeking havoc with domestic tranquility since I may have to rescind the promised moratorium on more espresso s**t post-Evo.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

SL01 said:


> reeking havoc with domestic tranquility since I may have to rescind the promised moratorium










????


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Can anyone with an Evo by chance measure the distance between the back of the machine and where the front legs end?

I have a custom made espresso counter area in my kitchen and I am not sure if the Evo is too deep that I will have to take out and have another countertop made.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@gus6464 51 cm (L) x 36.5 cm (W). These are edge to edge measures.You will also require a clearance of about 5.5 cm from the back of the machine to the wall for the socket - this is what we have at the moment. You may require double that clearance, if you need a smart socket. We haven't added one yet. We have a standard worktop, which measures 62 cm. The image below will give you an idea.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @gus6464 51 cm (L) x 36.5 cm (W). These are edge to edge measures.You will also require a clearance of about 5.5 cm from the back of the machine to the wall for the socket - this is what we have at the moment. You may require double that clearance, if you need a smart socket. We haven't added one yet. We have a standard worktop, which measures 62 cm. The image below will give you an idea.
> 
> View attachment 59712


 Thanks. I meant the distance between these red lines.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Thanks. I meant the distance between these red lines.
> 
> 
> View attachment 59721


 @gus6464 - as @Like Medium Strong Coffee said, it's "51 cm (L)" or 20 inches.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

From the front of the machine to the back is 51cm as mentioned.

From the front edge of the front foot to the back is just under 49cm as there is a 2cm overhang.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Patrick @The Systemic Kid, many thanks for the piston removal video and @Norvin for the tool. The job was a breeze and lasted just under 15 mins, although I am first timer. It should be faster next time.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Stevebee said:


> From the front of the machine to the back is 51cm as mentioned.
> 
> From the front edge of the front foot to the back is just under 49cm as there is a 2cm overhang.


 Ah perfect thank you, that's the measurement I was looking for. That distance is 1 inch too long for the counter on my coffee nook so going to have to get another one made that's slightly longer.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@DavecUK
You said you would be checking in with Paolo this week. Do you know how the schedule is going? Are they still waiting on parts?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> @DavecUK
> You said you would be checking in with Paolo this week. Do you know how the schedule is going? Are they still waiting on parts?


 I was just going to see if he had a good holiday, how his daughter is...did he have a good journey back to Naples and does the factory open on Monday. I would have asked about parts in passing.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

As the thread is a little quiet I'll give an update on the tamper situation. No new revelations here and I am not giving any recommendations on sizes, just giving my experience.

I am now using an IMS B662Th26M basket. I turned down my 58mm Torr Goldfinger tamper to fit. I was initially reluctant to change it but reasoned that as I probably won't change my machine I may as well get use out of it rather than have it sit in the drawer. The diameter of the mouth of the basket is 55.35mm but the sides taper after the spring groove. I arrived at the final diameter by shaving a little off and trying it for fit. The diameter of the tamper is now 55mm, (or 54.94mm if you want to (literally) split hairs). It fits the basket but does not go all the way to the bottom due to the taper but goes far enough to compress 18g. Larger diameters will fit but will limit how far the tamper goes into the basket. It is still too big to fit in the standard double basket, so I have one tamper for the IMS and another for the standard basket. The sides of the tamper are tapered to stop it sticking in the basket if it is not withdrawn 'square', and may reduce the suction effect.









The 58mm Motta tamper is now 54mm diameter. I shaved it down from 54.2mm (by accident ...don't ask) or so and it is now tapered too. It fits the standard double basket well but is a bit too loose in the IMS basket. I can't say that I have noticed any difference in performance between 54.2mm and 54mm, but that may just be me being insensitive.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I spoke to Paolo today, he is still in Belgium but should be back in Naples on Monday. The factory intend to get the next 14 or so machines out over the next few weeks.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all, I was thinking about the cleaning procedure for the leva. After a shot, does one simply just pull the leva down to flush the group? Also what about cleaning the entire group? Do you use chemicals for that? How does that work if the group is connected to the boiler. Definitely wouldn't want to back flush it into the brew boiler.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

If it is anything like my current lever, a Strega, very little cleaning is required. With the Strega, I periodically pull the shower screen and stick it in the dishwasher, wipe the group seal and bottom of the piston, and run a brush around the group seal seat. The water (and coffee) doesn't really have anywhere to go - it is just the chamber when the piston is raised, and that is it. It is unlike an E61 group where coffee and coffee oils go through all sorts of chambers etc.

Certainly DON'T backflush - the water doesn't have anywhere to go and there isn't a mechanism for relieving the pressure.

And maybe 6 monthly I pull out the piston and clean and lube the seals. But with the LSM group, with only 1 seal unlike the three on the Strega, probably just putting a smear of lube around the chamber with the piston raised would be all that is required.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gearosthyd Yes just pull the lever down to flush the group a little. You don't have to pull it down all the way, only enough to engage the pump.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

As @DavecUK has always been saying, the Evo requires a very little maintenance, unlike other machines, except of course once in 6M or 1Y annual TLC check to ensure all in order. We can cross that road, when we get there.

Agree with @Elephantoplasty. My cleaning routine cleaning is follows:

1) pull a shot or two, 2) short flush by pulling the lever enough to get some water through, 3) wipe the shower screen, 4) Wipe clean the front panel, 5) Clean the baskets and portafilter, 6) clean the tray EOD and 7) drop the shower screen once a week, soak in a bit of warm water-puly caff mixer for 5 mins, and wash off and (viii) clean the water tank with a warm water + a quarter of Milton tablet once a week.


----------



## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

For levers Espazzola is great tool

Not sure if this will fit Evo, but worth checking. - https://www.espazzola.ch/en/shop/esp-2+3-53/

I used it at end of each espresso session, to make the shower screen clear.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I believe, one of the Evo owners, who purchased this, reported that it fits but the clips wont hold.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/page/91/?do=embed


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I've already pulled over 40 shots on it, with no cleaning of the shower screen. I always use the bplus, and I dont have to flush or wipe anything, there are no coffee particles in the shower screen or oils. I use light roasted coffee only.

As for the greasing, I saw the video, pull lever down, remove screen grease the bore with grease, then do a few moves after you reinstall the screen.

That's it. I do however remove the water tank and clean it weekly, even if I use double filtered water (80 ppm with almost no Calcium in it, only Mg).

As for shots and temp, for my light roasts and based on others feedback on different machines, I set mine at 95 on boiler and 87C on group, and leave it there.

Some people do not understand or believe how can the grouphead not overheat between shots. After pulling one shot with 95/87C the grouphead temp sensor shows a variation of 0.5 C max so no overheating like other machines.

first shot with this coffee, just got back from vacation and used it for brewing there:

https://streamable.com/33qsfq


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Denis S - 15 second shot? Is that s turbo shot kinda thing?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

First shot on this beans. Next one I would grind 10 microns finer to hit ~ 25 sec total. It's a natural with oreo, guinness, cranberry, smoked whiskey taste notes I dont want to push the time on it a lot as it gets muddy fast.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis S said:


> Some people do not understand or believe how can the grouphead not overheat between shots. After pulling one shot with 95/87C the grouphead temp sensor shows a variation of 0.5 C max so no overheating like other machines.


 @Denis S that's because they often don't want to understand, or think it's an HX design and not completely independent of the brew boiler.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Thought will share the below, should the *temperature profiling *be of interest to any one.

Spoke to Extract coffee recently. We buy a lot of beans from them. The nature of the query was their recommended temperature setting for the beans. They acknowledged they can't offer any recommendations on group head temperature, but their recommended *boiler temperature setting will be 94C.*

We have been trying Blackcat's CP and Extract Coffee's Dr Strange Love and found sweet spots in the 92C-93C for the group and 100.00- 101.50 for the brew boiler.

The screens and the baskets are IMS SS and IMS 26. I still do not have a 55 mm tamper for the IMS baskets. So, there is a plenty of room for improvements in the puck distribution space.

This morning. we did two shots with the same dosage (18g) and the grind size. Both coffee weighed ~46g ish, when the shots were cut at 6 bars in 35-38secs.

1) 92 C group and 101.50C brew boiler

2) 92 C group and 94C brew boiler

I pulled the first, waited for the brew boiler to get down to 94C

I wasn't surprised that I *did not find* any significant difference to the taste except the *second shot was a tad more acidic*.

I do want to keep all parameters the same and pull a shot at 94C both for the group and the brew boiler. I will report, how it went.

Sorry about the messy pucks. I did not break them properly. The pucks were dry and fell on the plate without any effort. The black rings are the bottom edges of the IMS basket.

Thanks to Dave and Paolo, this machine is amazing , offering so many rich possibilities/variations for coffee freaks! 😊

We do want to stick to basics for now and try 2-3 beans to get to know the machine better.

Thank God, I am not a super taster. Otherwise, I will be driving wrecking the peace and sanity, which we currently have at home. 😃

Thanks for reading!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Remember that at 94C for group and boiler...you will in effect have a rising profile, as the water hits the group at a lower temp, then is bought to 94. You may not see all that change on the group head temp probe, because of thermal lag across the metal of the group....and the heaters kicking in.

Interested to hear the results


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK Yes. I understand, although I won't be able to measure what the temp loss is, how quickly it is stabilised at 94C at the group level, as the lever is pulled.

I would expect the shot to be little sour and may be more acidic than the morning shots as there will be a lag effect between the temp of the water as it hits the group, the group heater bringing it back to the required temperature and at what temperature the water has actually hit the puck during the PI.

I still have some black coffee left at the room temperature from the morning shots.

I will pull two shots during the day: everything will remain the same except one shot at 92C each for the group and the brew boiler and the other shot at 94C.

I will come back with my thoughts, FWIW, later in the day.

Thanks!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Interested to hear the results


 Pulled two more shots. All parameters except the temp were the same. The bag was Dr Strange Love.

3: Both the group and the brew boiler were set at 92C. The result was *disappointing* - mouth puckering sourness to drink as an espresso and definitely this taste stayed as a black americano. The after-taste bitterness (not paracetamol bitter) lingered both as espresso and Americano.

4: The group and the brew boiler were set at 94C. This is what the roaster advised for the brew boiler. This was *surprisingly smooth, good acidity, not sour but left a bit of bitterness (after taste)*. The result was the same be it as an espresso or a black Americano.

If I were to rank my shots, it will be 1, 4 and 2 in that order. The 3 will be out of contentions.

I do not know why the fourth shot of the day was better than the 3rd. Dave may be able to offer some insights.

Of course, it is hardly a sample to form a judgement. I definitely, plan on putting this *rising temp profile *shot in excel, experiment to add more samples in the excel with different beans as I understand the machine better.

I have a *bag of light roasts* and will definitely try pulling a shot at 94C for both the group and the brew boiler. I loved the shot from Evo at 94C / 102C.

For milk-based drink, all the four shots performed admirably well.

I think this is an experiment, which is definitely worth trying. It will be good if other owners could try and record their observations. May be, one might experiment by narrowing the group and the brew boiler temperature, if we think it is worth it.

We can all learn in the process. I see these exercises as a part of the learning curve. I appreciate if some members have a different take. Happy to get some comments and observations, if any.

Thanks for reading!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee There needs to be around 8 degrees difference between cartridges and brew boiler!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

If you want to try, try out something I use:

87 on grouphead with 95 in brew boiler temp. This is the limit for me to not get sour shots, but I do extract a lot ~10.5-12 TDS in 1-2 ratio. Maybe if you extract less like 8TDS then there is were the sour comes from, from underextraction.

If I go under this 87/95C combo I get too low temp harsh/medicine taste.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @Like Medium Strong Coffee There needs to be around 8 degrees difference between cartridges and brew boiler!


 If he wants a flat profile, but he might be experimenting with rising and falling temp profiles.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> The group and the brew boiler were set at 94C. This is what the roaster advised for the brew boiler.


 I suspect that they are advising 94 C in the assumption that, like most of the other machines, the Evo has an in built temperature offset, ie if you set the PID to 94, in reality the machines sets the boiler temperature to 94 + X, so that the temperature at the puck is approximately 94, but we obviously know that this is not the case for the Evo.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> I suspect that they are advising 94 C in the assumption that, like most of the other machines, the Evo has an in built temperature offset, ie if you set the PID to 94, in reality the machines sets the boiler temperature to 94 + X, so that the temperature at the puck is approximately 94, but we obviously know that this is not the case for the Evo.


 They said they won't be able to offer any guidance on the group head temperature for the Evo as the commercial machines, which they sell do not have similar features / functionalities, and they generally QC their beans at that level.

Mine, as I had clearly indicated earlier, was purely an experiment and it should be seen in that context.

I am neither an engineer nor a physicist; but the analytically inclined mindset was the motivating factor behind the experiment. I expected a certain outcome, which was partially confirmed by one of the two shots but the good cup at 94C for the group and the brew boiler did surprise me a lot, raising my curiosity further and resulting in many additional questions.

Thanks!


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

There is a difference between group temperature and water temperature at the group, I think they meant the latter when they suggested 94. As far as I know most machines show the "projected" water temperature at the group, not the temperature at the boiler which in itself is meaningless.

I didn't mean to criticise your experiment, just suggesting that maybe they were recommending to brew their coffee with water at 94, rather than setting the boiler at 94


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> suggesting that maybe they were recommending to brew their coffee with water at 94, rather than setting the boiler at 94


 Understood. They appreciated this is a different machine offering certain features and hence can't guide. But, they advised, generally, they QC their coffee range at a boiler temperature of 94C, which might be subject to interpretations.

Btw, thanks for your thoughts; and, thanks every one for their comments/observations.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Yeah a bit weird that they specify their temperature at the boiler as rusty said it's useless as the water at the puck is what matters. Maybe they mixed up the two? From my experience working in a cafe 94 at the puck was a good temperature for bringing out more acidity in a coffee.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

So today I have received my bplus puck screen. I use the IMS 26 mm basket, with 18 g of coffee there is a little headspace above the puck when it is dry but as it expands when it's soaked it pushes against the screen clip, so if I add the puck screen on top, this will prevent puck expansion as it will sit against the shower screen clip.

has anybody seen any evidence that this "puck compression" is either a good or a bad thing?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It's a bad thing cause you compress the top 0.5mm a lot so the puck gets not enough washing at the bottom.

You can dose 18-19g into that basket w/o the bplus and 17 g max with bplus. Make sure the screen goes all the way down to the coffee bed so it's straight.

Have 1kg of espresso roast 2 months old I dont drink from the freezer to play with shots.

26 and 32mm ims screens filled with 18g doses no Bplus! All pulled today, with 87 group/95 boiler







































Here is a shot, all the photos are from today, I pull and observe what's happening, then taste and drop it to the sink. I also smell the cup before drinking, I have a really good smell.

https://streamable.com/6d4ux2

W/o using the bplus I can see this:

- the soaking in preinfusion is somehow a bit more even w/o bplus

- the pouring in brew is with more blonding, a bit more channeling, side flows, and the most important, the flow accelerates a lot w/o the bplus mesh towards the last 5-10 seconds. With the bplus the puck integrity is held together better, giving it a much slower flow raise from start to finish.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S I watched the video at about 21 seconds, I hear the pump kick in, when are you raising the lever (seconds)?


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

rusty pie said:


> So today I have received my bplus puck screen. I use the IMS 26 mm basket, with 18 g of coffee there is a little headspace above the puck when it is dry but as it expands when it's soaked it pushes against the screen clip, so if I add the puck screen on top, this will prevent puck expansion as it will sit against the shower screen clip.
> 
> has anybody seen any evidence that this "puck compression" is either a good or a bad thing?


 I have had a few weeks with the 55mm Bplus screen in the IMS 26M basket. I stopped using it. The Bplus cost nearly US$70 delivered and it now sits on the shelf.

Earlier on, I experimented with tamp pressure to get the most for our roast of choice, the classic Neapolitan Passalacqua Versuvio, My wife prefers milk drinks and its full bore flavor and body reminds me of the nice times we had in Italy. Since I use an arbor press with a dial indicator, I can gauge exactly how much pressure the tamp is, change it and repeat it every time. The best I found is at an indicated 85 lbs. Yep, 85. My espresso drink is heavenly and my wife's comment for her cappuccino is that it's like eating a piece of opera cake. We like that.

Adding the Bplus changed the taste. It pushed flavors to extremes - it unraveled bitterness, the finish is shorter and far less pleasant. Cocoa became tar. I believe this happened because it exerts additional pressure on the puck. So the 85 lbs becomes something higher. How much higher I cannot tell as I don't have a Scace but the evidence is an even more tightly packed puck, more so than an already nicely packed puck.

I can see the rationale of a Bplus with a LaPavoni, Flair or even Olympia Cremina since they can be pressure-challenged but with 12 bar on tap with the Evo, I find it not only not necessary but a detriment - to our roast at least. Perhaps this will be different with lighter roasts but we don't drink those.

YMMV, of course.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I am not sure, if the lever was released at 21 secs? If that's case, it's a pretty long PI. Thanks


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @Denis S I watched the video at about 21 seconds, I hear the pump kick in, when are you raising the lever (seconds)?


 I release it after the pump sound at sec 21.

The pressure starts dropping as you see many drips coming out already at sec 20, so the preinfusion pressure drops under the set 2 bar from factory so the pump just kicks in shortly to go again at 2 bars. After that sound I release gently the lever assisting it a bit so I dont hammer the puck with full force.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S I thought so, I'd recommend keeping the preinfusion to a max of 12 seconds and then your controlled release of the lever. If the shot is then a bit slow, you can always let up on the grind. To me the shot looked like it "might" have chanelled.

It's got to be worth the experiment, I found with the Vesuvius E61 machine, overly long preinfusion was usually detrimental.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@SL01 you can easily sell the bplus to someone here, i'm sure they take it.

Regarding your findings to bplus, I must say it boost the extraction yield by 2-3% so no wonder you dont like the shots with it. The darker the roast the less you want to extract, that is why you see lower ratios in darker roasts. The horrible taste you are describing is from overextraction, something that is needed into light roasts and not needed into dark roasts.

I enjoy dark roasts pulled short in 1-1.5 ratios for 13-15 tds.

I enjoy light roasts pulled in 1-2 up to 2.2 ratio for 9-11 tds


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> @Denis S I thought so, I'd recommend keeping the preinfusion to a max of 12 seconds and then your controlled release of the lever. If the shot is then a bit slow, you can always let up on the grind. To me the shot looked like it "might" have chanelled.
> 
> It's got to be worth the experiment, I found with the Vesuvius E61 machine, overly long preinfusion was usually detrimental.


 Sure that is not how my shots are normally, I've just pulled a session of 12 shots and went to the sink all of them. From finer to coarser grind.

My preinfusion normally sits in the 6-12 sec range, followed by extracting to a total of 22-30 sec total.

If someone likes numbers:

-the gear pump in the leva pumps at 25/26 g/s when engaged.

-the total shot volume if you let everything come out is ~85g in the cup from 10.5 to 0 bar

- the pump needs 5sec to start to move the pressure gauge on the dial, and 1 more extra second for set pressure in pi

From the above, and from knowing the puck takes a volume of water that is normally ~times 2 it's weight we have

18g dose*2=36g of water intake for the puck+ 85g in the cup - 121g of water approx in the piston's headspace and the coffee bed.

So what I want to say with this is, the Leva needs a minimum of 5-6 seconds before releasing the lever so the entire piston is filled with water. Also this is helpful if someone wants to replicate this on other machine.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis S said:


> So what I want to say with this is, the Leva needs a minimum of 5-6 seconds before releasing the lever so the entire piston is filled with water. Also this is helpful if someone wants to replicate this on other machines.


 yes, this is about right.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This feels like a daft question, but I will ask it anyway! is there an advantage in keeping the pi going past the point of puck saturation so that drips are coming through? That is meant as a generic question, not as a result of anything imn particular that anyone has said


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> This feels like a daft question, but I will ask it anyway! is there an advantage in keeping the pi going past the point of puck saturation so that drips are coming through? That is meant as a generic question, not as a result of anything imn particular that anyone has said


 I've personally not found it beneficial.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> @SL01 you can easily sell the bplus to someone here, i'm sure they take it.
> 
> Regarding your findings to bplus, I must say it boost the extraction yield by 2-3% so no wonder you dont like the shots with it. The darker the roast the less you want to extract, that is why you see lower ratios in darker roasts. The horrible taste you are describing is from overextraction, something that is needed into light roasts and not needed into dark roasts.
> 
> ...


 @Denis S Thank you for the information.

This explains why the Bplus paralleled the taste when my tamps were above 90 lbs. At less than 80 lbs, the Vesuvio is a little rudderless but it kicks in around 82/83 then finds literally a sweet spot at 85. After 85, it falls off the cliff at 90.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> yes, this is about right.


 Using the Acaia Lunar, that moment comes when the first drops in the cup cause a little beep, a handy reminder to let her go.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

New SS circlip arrived. But, as before, we will continue to use the trusted GU10 SS clips.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> New SS circlip arrived. But, as before, we will continue to use the trusted GU10 SS clips.
> 
> View attachment 59783


 Hmm don't you think it's a problem that parts of clip covered some of the shower holes?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd CAn you suggest an alternate! I think there is a lot of useful stuff on this thread, but I doubt many have the tastebuds to detect the scale of difference that some of the things mentioned can actually make!


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

gearosthyd said:


> Hmm don't you think it's a problem that parts of clip covered some of the shower holes?


 why?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> Hmm don't you think it's a problem that parts of clip covered some of the shower holes?


 LSM been doing it that way for many years...I don't think it's caused problems. I suggested GU10 light fitting spring clips simply because there's less tension, easier to change and no cracking risk due to thermal stress on SS circlips.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> Hmm don't you think it's a problem that parts of clip covered some of the shower holes?


 It's the same as the stock circlip.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> LSM been doing it that way for many years...I don't think it's caused problems. I suggested GU10 light fitting spring clips simply because there's less tension, easier to change and no cracking risk due to thermal stress on SS circlips.


 Fully agree. The GU10 can be removed and fitted with fingers. I found the circlip, especially the SS version harder to fit even with the tool. Am pleased, thanks to Dave's brilliant suggestion, the shower screen management is a pitta now! 😊


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Ah well I just saw part of clip covering the holes. Had the thought of filing away the offending areas to fully expose the partially covered holes.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Got new coffees (2kg) from Machhoerndl Germany, of course all filter roasts (a bit lighter than my latest purchases but familiar already with this type of roasts as I consumed only this for 2 years.

This is my second shot, as the first one was a tiny bit too coarse. I also had to raise the temp a bit (87 group/95 brew) i'm keeping the 8C off-set as I like it. After pulling my shots, I note the microns from the bentwood on the bag, then it's easy.

Shot:

https://streamable.com/nunndk

Data:

18g in 32mm ims basket tamped with bravo on top of Bplus (why? because the bravo has a limited traveling point, so you want to make sure you compress the puck while tamping, and it wont make it with low dose into 32mm basket). The bravo tampers are thought for 58mm baskets and most of them are in the 20-26mm height range.

40.5g out in less than 24sec. Taste? really good, mandarine and orange, white chocolate.


----------



## DanielH (Jul 18, 2021)

Thanks for the insights! Looks delicious.

Just to make sure Denis, you are not only using the BPlus for Tamping but also having it on the puck during extraction right?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all, just a quick question about the steam arm options. There exists two types of "super long" steam wands right? One that is square and one that is triangular right? I've attached picture of the two that I think there are. Or am I just crazy and there's only the one square one?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I think these two arms are the same. As far as I know there are basically three designs: the "squarish" Vostok one (as in the pictures), the "rounded" Minima one (see pictures of the ACS minima) and the Vesuvius E61 ones.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Eiffel said:


> I think these two arms are the same. As far as I know there are basically three designs: the "squarish" Vostok one (as in the pictures), the "rounded" Minima one (see pictures of the ACS minima) and the Vesuvius E61 ones.


 They are the same.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

DanielH said:


> Thanks for the insights! Looks delicious.
> 
> Just to make sure Denis, you are not only using the BPlus for Tamping but also having it on the puck during extraction right?


 The max travel tamping distance on the Bravo is 18.5 or 19mm. After that you cannot push more as you compressed the spring to the max so all the force goes at the leveling plate at the top of the basket, not into the coffee bed.

The 32mm ims basket just like the original ones that came with the machine, is a basket for 22-24g of coffee, but I use 18-18.5g of coffee with them, this means there is a chance the bravo tamper or a leveling tamper will not put all the force you press with to the coffee bed, having uneven tamp in the puck (more at the top less at the bottom). This is why I use the bplus to tamp on it, rather than dropping it after the tamp.

I hope it makes sense what i'm trying to say. Have a look on the photo with the coffee and bplus on top. you are left with half of the basket empty. this is why i'm saying you might end up with a tamping problem.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> They are the same.
> 
> View attachment 59801


 Ha okay, I was not tripping out then after all.
@DavecUK


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I had to forego my morning cuppa today, as a good friend of mine, @scots_flyer made the time and effort to come down on the train from the remotest village of Tranent south of Edinburgh ro see myself and my wife.I wanted him to start by seeing the machine warm up from cold. I first met AL when trying to sort out the problems he was having with his Quickmill and we have been good friends ever since! Al has one of the last LR's and has the dongle kit. It had to be replaced a couple of times and now, when it works it certainly lets you change PI via the ap seamlessly!

The point of todays visit was to see if Al's tastebuds could tell the difference between my coffee, then trying to improve it through temp control. We decided to use some Coffee Compass Rocko which I know to be great but I have only had once before. I left my machine and grinder exactly as they had been set for my Mystery beans which were definitekly darker. Shot pulled then I started making small changes to group temp and brew boiler. Through inexperience I might not have left a long enough time for the changes to fully take place but the point of the exercise was not to produce the stellar shot, but to see if by playing around with temp, it affected the shots taste. It did!

Anyway, after a very pleasant couple of hours it was soon time to take Al back to the station to begin the journey home, and I hope he spends the train journey pondering his next move!


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

I think there should be a separate thread with the part numbers for things like ims shower screen, baskets, circlip size, etc. so it's easier for people to find instead of having to scour the whole thread.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gus6464 I agree


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I think "we" should create a FAQ thread (with tips and techniques as well) for this machine, so that all the good stuff (banter excluded) doesn't get lost in this very long thread... I'm very new at the coffee game (and have yet to receive my shiny new machine), but I'd be happy to contribute in due time within the limits of my expertise


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I agree with both @gus6464 and @Eiffel

@DavecUK Do you think it makes sense to add these two suggestions to the online manual, which you created?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

If someone, or a few people want to get together and pull the information together from the thread for me, into a 1 or 2 pager...I'll add it to the manual under a hints and tips section.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Has anyone received request or payment today? I am buying a second one for a pal of mine who has never owned a machine and does not have the internet!


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

dfk41 said:


> Has anyone received request or payment today? I am buying a second one for a pal of mine who has never owned a machine and does not have the internet!


 I did and sent the payment last night. Paolo said my machine is shipping early next week.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I have been pulling a few and storing as notes on my ipad. I will share them with you @DavecUK. Dave, do you need this as formatted in word or plain text please?

Others may chip in, if I have missed out anything, after reviewing the updated manual. Thx


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee plain text is fine.


----------



## scots_flyer (Jun 23, 2014)

A few thoughts on the Evo&#8230; Just for clarity on the limits of my experience to date, I have owned a Quickmill Veloce, an L1, an Olympia Cremina 67, a Brui Brunella and currently have an LR. I don't do pump machines because I am just not interested in them. For those of us who are looking for a more substantial lever than one of these "candlestick "type machines which personally, I can't be bothered with, the choices are pretty limited. This appears to be where Londinium are pitching their product and now that Evo has turned up it's the first time there is something on the market to make a meaningful comparison with.

I don't think it's as straightforward as "this one is better than that one ". I don't think either machine is anywhere near perfect, perhaps a better question might be, what exactly are you looking for&#8230; even then, it isn't straightforward. What I like about lever machines is the physical interaction required and the idea that the only technology in play is essentially a boiler and a spring - simplicity is king. The problem I have come up against is, the truly simple old - style Italian lever machines made for home use, typically need a lot of work and sometimes repeated repairs but often produce inconsistent results.

It does take time to get dialled into any machines or and sort out a process that works for you. Once you get beyond how a machine looks and what the manufacturer would like you to believe, it comes down to what that machine is capable of in your hands and how it feels to work with on a daily basis.

I suppose the feature of the LR is the ability PI pressure and while it does make some difference, I think it is only marginal and I tend to leave mine set at four bar. I think making more traditional adjustments in grind size, tamp and shot time/weight have a far greater impact. It takes 15 mins dot from cold to reach operating temperature and producing good consistent coffee from this machine is not difficult provided you have a decent grinder. I also find this machine quite practical and easy to clean and maintain.

The biggest surprise with a Londinium is the price. Not only are they hilariously expensive to buy new or used - especially when you consider what is inside, but all spares, parts and accessories are all unnecessarily expensive.

There is no comparison to hands on experience with a machine and it was striking to see how different the Evo was from the LR. I thought it looked surprisingly understated, especially for a machine with so much in the way of on-board electronics but the control panel is really very discreet and fits in well with the overall traditional aesthetic. Pulling a shot was straightforward and although there was a little flex in the front panel, it did feel solid. In fact, everything about this machine felt very robust.

A dual boiler lever machine is something I never thought I would consider and still can't help thinking this is one boiler too far in a machine that should be simplicity itself by design. The temperature adjustability options certainly introduce new possibilities but to fully investigate, would also require quite an investment of time and consideration before arriving at a firm opinion. I will continue to watch with interest for now&#8230;


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Temperature is crucial for taste, if it would not be then we would all have preset machines at 93C, but this is not true.

Temperature has a direct influence on the flow/viscosity in the puck, meaning you will have to correct and adjust that flow by grinding coarser (lower temp) or finer (higher temp). This has a direct influence on taste. A light roasts is more sensitive to this, as it has a much narrow dial in spot while a super dark napoletano roast will be almost indistinguishable at 3 C apart, because of the heavy notes you find in, there is little complexity there to compare between a 90 and a 93 C.

In my opinion, someone who wants to dial in to the perfection a bean, must have precise temp control, to be able to go up and down in temp, and the most important since 2020, to be able to have a temperature drop from 2 to 5 C during a shot. This can make a much better cup instead of having a flat stable temp fixed at one point.

Temperature has a huge impact in taste, as I was saying because it's related to grind size, so even if you are skeptical about temp doing nothing, you cannot deny the grind size changes the taste.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

I have now had my Evo for 33 days. I have made espresso and cappuccino everyday, and somewhere in the back of my mind - to reassure my investment in money and trust in the Evo and its ecosystem is sound - I tried to answer the same question nearly everyday "Did I make the right choice?"

Paolo and I spoke about this yesterday. Is the Evo a stunning new entry in the "prosumer" or "personal luxury" category that will take its place in history? Or is it a flash in the pan waiting to be unseated by the next latest and greatest, so evident currently in the grinder market?

To clearly knowledgeable and experienced folks like @DavecUK, @The Systemic Kid, @Denis S and @scots_flyer, the arguments for and against may arise from a substantial background of experience, and their points are fact-based, nuanced and balanced. To me as a pragmatic yet diehard foodie and espresso lover, it's a more direct matter - what else is there for the money, and will it continue to be excellent without needing massive amounts of babying?

The short answers for me is no and no. I'd thought 33 days after the Evo landed I would have found more to moan about but there really isn't. I mentioned to Paolo I wish the Evo had taller feet so I can get under to clean the counter easier but that is the nitpick of nitpicks.

The machine warms up in exactly 16 minutes, almost the exact time of my morning routine out of bed. By the time I am ready with the puck the Evo is at exactly 92/100/125, the way I set it for my espresso and my wife's cappuccino. Not even one minute of waiting needed.

Then the same "Godshot" lands in the cup, day after day, no drama, no surprises. I said to Paolo I can no longer go to cafés as the Evo has done them in for good. There simply is no comparison in taste and more importantly, no better satisfaction. The Evo brings out what's in the bean more than any machine I've experienced including the various high-buck La Marzocco commercial machines in my neck of the woods from Strada's to GB5's and Linea's who charge a fortune then inevitably disappoints.

5 minutes after I pull the shots, the Evo goes off. The average energy consumption observed is about 0.7 KWh, or US$0.12 per day. On a busier day with company visiting, it may be double or triple but it still costs less than 1/2 of a candy bar.

The impact of the 3 PIDs is not only on energy consumption but the cost of long-term maintenance. With the machine not needing to be on for any more than 15 minutes at a time for 2 drinks - versus the full hour needed for the 5L or single boiler models - the heat and pressure stress on parts are substantially reduced, and scale deposit inside boilers minimized. Longevity goes up, costs go down, and hassle minimized. Not many folks talk about this aspect of the Evo's brilliance and even if this was not part of the master plan from @Paolo_Cortese and @DavecUK, they are getting a big thumbs-up from this pragmatist. Next to machines of remotely comparable stature and capabilities, no one comes close.

On the flex issue - I had big worries, and had even devised a plan to counter it when my Evo arrived. I since found a way that works for me with no added parts or hacking the frame - by simply lifting up on the locked portafilter handle while pulling the lever down. The counteracting forces of up vs down allow the group head to act more as a fulcrum at the frame than having to transfer the downward force of the lever to it causing it to flex. With just a little practice this became a simple and workable solution.

Paolo mentioned that the parts are finally starting to flow, so I wish him a lot of success in the market with the Evo. It is a brilliant design well executed and it very much deserves a very loyal following.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@SL01 Great review 1 month in. I wanted the simplicity of the lever with just enough modern tech to deal with the issues of traditional levers. Temperature being a key variable to control was important to me, along with all the other great features.

Another key consideration was using that beautiful and very high quality lever group but still keeping it affordable....and quick to market.

It was all part of the master plan once we realised simply bettering what was out there was an insufficient challenge.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@scots_flyer @scots_flyer

*I suppose the feature of the LR is the ability PI pressure and while it does make some difference, I think it is only marginal and I tend to leave mine set at four bar. I think making more traditional adjustments in grind size, tamp and shot time/weight have a far greater impact. It takes 15 mins dot from cold to reach operating temperature and producing good consistent coffee from this machine is not difficult provided you have a decent grinder. I also find this machine quite practical and easy to clean and maintain.*

Can I just pick up on this claim please that the LR is ready to go in 15 minutes. IT IS NOT! The boiler has to come to temp before the thermosyphon has any impact on heating the group with water from the boiler. Once the boiler is at pressure (and do you know what actual temperature the water is at this point) you can start to pull quite a bit of water through the group to artificially raise the temperature. It does actually work, but for two things:

a) since there is no way of measuring it, how do you know what the temp at the group head is

b) if you have pulled say a litre through, then a litre of cold water must enter the boiler and be heated up which all takes time

So, there is no guarantee that it is actually warmed up, just because you think it is. If you flush water through the group head to warm it up, then in my view the whole thing would be unstable. So, we are in a position that someone thinks something but cannot back it up with any data, whereas when Al arrived at mine and switched the Evo on, we set a timer running and inside of 15 minutes, the whole thing was heated through with group head and both boilers at the temps I had set.....that is 100% provable!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I posted this on my Instagram and wont link the page as not many are there. I also took my time to flip the machine and remove the back protecting foil off the back panel, I totally forgot to do it when I installed it.

"

I moved from my decent espresso machine because of not optimal tasting shots and too many bugs to deal with from my perspective to something I had and wanted for a long long time (I already owned over 10 levers, mostly small).
Why did I buy the ACS vesuvius evo leva? I payed for the deposit the second day I found about it after reading the specs (no machine was build then).

Features:
all stainless steel 316
0.8L brew boiler/2.3L steam boiler/ modified and improved LSM group
LSM grouphead 8kg+ with double spring (can easily be taken apart w/o tools and remove one spring to lower max pressure)
Fluid-o-tech gear pump to control via pres stat the preinfusion pressure value (1-4bar), flow is 25g/s
To give you an idea about how massive and solid this machine is, I already owned a Bezzera Magica HX and a Bezzera Mitica rotary and those are small.
Gicar 3 PID unit control (can control to 0.5C the group temp, the brew temp and the steam boiler temp, individual and on and off)
54mm group tested and made prior to E61 (1961) this was first made in circa 1950.
The grouphead I have here is an improved redesigned, 2x100W heated group, with a different water path sleeve, so a pressure dial gauge is installed and gives you live pressure feedback
The pressure dial can be used to stop the shot at X volume/weight out in the cup (from 10.5 bar peak to 6.5 bar I get ~ 1-2 ratio) no more scale using
now the top feature, despite having boilers and a massive grouphead, the machine is ready to be used in 16 minutes and it has daily wake up schedule build in set individual for each day.
the water tank is 3L big, and the left panel opens up with a quick release mechanism, and the water tank tilts at 45 degree for easy filling, this means you can keep your cups on top of the machine and never have to remove them
a drip tray 2L is provided, you can easily flush into it, it doesn't fill fast.

The machine comes with many accessories (3 portafilters, 4 baskets, tamper, full gasket seal kit for the grouphead/steam wand service, 2 hole extra wand tip, a microfabric cloth, and a plumbing kit containing drain and line hose)
The machine because it has a gear pump for preinfusion, cannot be installed and used directly to the water pressure line but the plumb in will refill the tank to max (it has a sensor)
There will be a version with no gear pump and that is only for plumb in (called ACS vostok one group)

Despite the machine being new, I experienced no bugs, or problems. Let's face it, many producers face software or hardware problems when releasing a new model (Lelit Bianca plastic T melted, VA prima software bugs, DC studio timer and preinfusion from tank etc).
I believe the advantage of this machine is the fact that they took already tested off the bench parts and put them together to have a modern reliable and capable lever espresso machine.
0.8L brew boiler and 2.3L steam boiler are inside a ACS Minima for some years now
the fluid-o-tech gear pump is tested for many years w/o failing, the part is not expensive
the grouphead is tested for over 70 years it is also a commercial grade grouphead found in many bar machines
and now the cherry on top of the cake, the machine because of the gear pump is capable to pull longer ratio shots. A full down and up lever pull can push in the cup max 82-85g. For a lever this would never be possible, not even the modern LM leva can pull more than 40g out in the cup. So for someone who wants a bigger than 1-2.2 ratio he has to use a tiny dose (12 g in 40g out)."


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S Someone who completely gets it and what the Evo was designed to achieve.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Is your DF64 with SSP or stock?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

SSP Brew burrs, I'm not using it for espresso, rarely only. And I hate it cause it's louder than a truck horn.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

SL01 said:


> I have now had my Evo for 33 days. I have made espresso and cappuccino everyday, and somewhere in the back of my mind - to reassure my investment in money and trust in the Evo and its ecosystem is sound - I tried to answer the same question nearly everyday "Did I make the right choice?"
> 
> Paolo and I spoke about this yesterday. Is the Evo a stunning new entry in the "prosumer" or "personal luxury" category that will take its place in history? Or is it a flash in the pan waiting to be unseated by the next latest and greatest, so evident currently in the grinder market?
> 
> ...


 You say you manage the flex by lifting up the portafilter.That sounds crazy. A machine of this suze and price shouldn't have a flex at all. To me that frame just hasn't been designed right if it flexes.

you talk about longevity you expect from the machine. A flexing front would worry me.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

I have received my bplus screen a few days ago and made a few comparative shots with and without screen, using the 26 and 32 IMS baskets dosing 16 to 18g. To my surprise, with all variables (grind, dose, ratio) being equal, the shots with the screen flow quicker and are much more "diluted" than those without, but also much less acidic and/or bitter. The crema is also much lighter in colour. To have similar results I have to tighten the grind by 3 units on my grinder.

Why is this happening? I can think of two potential reasons by logic, but not sure how much these can actually affect the shots.

1) the screen is not as warm as the group so it cools down the water initially, but I would not think this would make such a large difference as it's probably only affecting the preinfusion water.

2) With its tight mesh, the screen is acting almost as a pressure reduction device and the coffee doesn't see the full 11 bar or so.

Thoughts?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Levvieman said:


> You say you manage the flex by lifting up the portafilter.That sounds crazy. A machine of this suze and price shouldn't have a flex at all. To me that frame just hasn't been designed right if it flexes.
> 
> you talk about longevity you expect from the machine. A flexing front would worry me.


 Lots of things flex in operation without long term problems - extreme example being aircraft wings. Not heard complaints about that. With its dual spring set up, Evo requires 300kg of force to cock the lever - 76% more than a comparable single spring lever machine. Does the minimal flexing affect Evo's functioning - no. Will it affect long term reliability - unlikely.

As for holding the portafilter whilst cocking the lever being 'crazy' - this is common practice for a lot of other lever brands' users.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Lots of things flex in operation without long term problems - extreme example being aircraft wings. Not heard complaints about that. With its dual spring set up, Evo requires 300kg of force to cock the lever - 76% more than a comparable single spring lever machine. Does the minimal flexing affect Evo's functioning - no. Will it affect long term reliability - unlikely.
> 
> As for holding the portafilter whilst cocking the lever being 'crazy' - this is common practice for a lot of other lever brands' users. I owned a Strega long ago and it also flexed at the front.Owned it for 2 years but I always felt it wasn't right.
> 
> It's just that for the price of the Vesuvius itwould bother me.It probably won't ever break or anything I guess.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

rusty pie said:


> I have received my bplus screen a few days ago and made a few comparative shots with and without screen, using the 26 and 32 IMS baskets dosing 16 to 18g. To my surprise, with all variables (grind, dose, ratio) being equal, the shots with the screen flow quicker and are much more "diluted" than those without, but also much less acidic and/or bitter. The crema is also much lighter in colour. To have similar results I have to tighten the grind by 3 units on my grinder.
> 
> Why is this happening? I can think of two potential reasons by logic, but not sure how much these can actually affect the shots.
> 
> ...


 Discussed here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/60969-puck-screen-bplus-flair-mesh-screen/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=850635&embedComment=850635&embedDo=findComment#comment-850635


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Levvieman said:


> It's just that for the price of the Vesuvius itwould bother me.It probably won't ever break or anything I guess.


 Then it isn't the machine for you. As more Evos are released into the wild, it will become more and more evident that the Evo is a major step change in lever machine evolution and at a price that belies the cost of the components which go into it not least of which is the superb dual spring group.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Then it isn't the machine for you. As more Evos are released into the wild, it will become more and more evident that the Evo is a major step change in lever machine evolution and at a price that belies the cost of the components which go into it not least of which is the superb dual spring group.


 Yes The group is great.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

I found this forum by the Vesuvius topic on youtube.

I couldn't comment on the one which showed the flex.So I did it here. No trolling.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Levvieman said:


> I couldn't comment on the one which showed the flex.So I did it here. No trolling.


 Are you referring to, by any change, to videos made on the test bed? i.e.: NOT the production machine? Do you have a link to the youtube video you mention?

btw: Welcome to the forum!


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Are you referring to, by any change, to videos made on the test bed? i.e.: NOT the production machine? Do you have a link to the youtube video you mention?
> 
> btw: Welcome to the forum!
> 
> Thank you.


 Yes I believe that's what it was called. On youtube. The amount of flex in a few of those videos was pretty big.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Levvieman said:


> Yes I believe that's what it was called. On youtube. The amount of flex in a few of those videos was pretty big.


 But that's NOT the production machine. It was a test bed given to @DavecUK to test the concept. All the components (group, display, etc) were literally bolt onto and old chassis. I'm sure Dave can tell you more.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Discussed here:
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/60969-puck-screen-bplus-flair-mesh-screen/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=850635&embedComment=850635&embedDo=findComment#comment-850635


 I've read that thread, I haven't found any real explanation why shots run faster with the puck screen.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> But that's NOT the production machine. It was a test bed given to @DavecUK to test the concept. All the components (group, display, etc) were literally bolt onto and old chassis. I'm sure Dave can tell you more.


 Ok. So that's fixed. Great!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Levvieman said:


> Ok. So that's fixed. Great!


 I've seen the test bed in person, had coffees from it, and also I've seen the videos. But I never seen a production machine in the flesh. So you can ask away, or, check some of the videos on this thread that some helpful member have made and draw your own conclusions 🙂


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@LevviemanIf you scroll back through this very thread, the flexing was covered in some depth. In summary, the prototype flexes more than the production model. Still some flex in the production model but unlikely to have an effect on longevity. Lots of videos of older La San Marco group machines showing flex as well so it's not a new phenomenon. Consensus was it's perfectly fine and won't break.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@Levvieman much scary such wow.

Maybe if you look at the bellow video you might be even more scared, regarding flex.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TjqqrTggRxqVkQVSA


----------



## shaunlawler (Feb 7, 2014)

Denis S said:


> @Levvieman much scary such wow.
> 
> Maybe if you look at the bellow video you might be even more scared, regarding flex.
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/TjqqrTggRxqVkQVSA


 Not sure that applies to a non-lever machine 🤣


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Levvieman said:


> Ok. So that's fixed. Great!


 The Alpha 1 test bed was to prove the concept and *was built using scrap parts*, and a very different internal layout to production machines it's not even that maintainable because the boilers have to come out to do almost anything on the Alpha.



Case damaged scrap case, no bottom plate (all open). Normal group reinforcement used for the E61 group removed, so the group could be bolted on.


Pump cable tied to the service boiler


No extra reinforcement


6 or 7 year old ex commercial group, which was leaking when I got it and is a slightly older specification than the current groups.


It was purely a proof of concept for a prosumer unit, because the commercial Vostok lacked many features a home unit needed:



Would it all fit properly


Could the case be compartmentalised into wet and dry areas for electronics


How could future maintenance be facilitated by the design


what wasn't needed


what needed changing and where reinforcement needed to be/how much


did it work and was it stable


There is no comparison to the actual production machines in terms of quality, fit and finish. You said there was no comments allowed on the Video, that's probably in error, pm me the link please, because I probably need to correct that.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis S said:


> @Levvieman much scary such wow.
> 
> Maybe if you look at the bellow video you might be even more scared, regarding flex.
> 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/TjqqrTggRxqVkQVSA



View attachment L1 warp speed.mp4


The above YouTube video I found in Home Barista and was uploaded to YouTube about 7 years ago. I downloaded this small copy from youtube, a while ago. It appears to have been recently deleted. There is another where he added strengthening, but I won't put that one up as it showed a different issue..


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Levvieman said:


> You say you manage the flex by lifting up the portafilter.That sounds crazy. A machine of this suze and price shouldn't have a flex at all. To me that frame just hasn't been designed right if it flexes.
> 
> you talk about longevity you expect from the machine. A flexing front would worry me.


 @Levvieman It is not realistic to have a double-spring LSM group using up to 300kg of spring force as mentioned by @The Systemic Kid and not have it show some flex in a machine meant to be used in a non-commercial setting.

The degree to which it does flex has been minimized in the production Evo, but not non-sensibly that you cannot lift it from the floor to the counter without using a pneumatic lift table. So as sometime who looks for better ways to get things done, I found mine.

Just ask any automotive designer how they tame the frame flex when they chop off half the car to make a convertible. It's never "no flex at all" because it's simply an impossible pipe dream in a practical world.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

You want some flex. Making it too stiff is how stuff cracks easy. One of my hobbies is mountain bikes and you will find flex in some areas that you might think it's dangerous but it's not.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Flex is just a misconceived concept, on the whole dragged up by idiots flying the flag flown by folks who are not used to being questioned when they dish out pearls of wisdom, or is it shite......I get mixed up now


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Around here we life to FLEX! a lot.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> View attachment 59858
> 
> 
> The above YouTube video I found in Home Barista and was uploaded to YouTube about 7 years ago. I downloaded this small copy from youtube, a while ago. It appears to have been recently deleted. There is another where he added strengthening, but I won't put that one up as it showed a different issue..


 I remember that one.From a german forum?


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Levvieman said:


> I remember that one.From a german forum?


 There are different mentality on flexible frame, some work on the rigid system to avoid problems with the other parts of the machine like the panels and other prefer to have a flax frame the most important thing is that all the time the frame go back at it should and not stay bent. In the video the group seems a standard Fiorenzato style with single spring any way.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Levvieman said:


> I remember that one.From a german forum?


 USA forum.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

This is a similar "observation' made by "concerned pundits" when the Quickmill Achille was released in Australia around 10 years ago. It also has a double spring setup.

There were comparisons made to another commercial lever used in domestic applications and comments ran...

I have owned one of the original Quickmill Achilles since then and can report that no long-term issues have occurred.

I have observed that *all* commercial lever machines have some measure of flex in them.

I put the Evo observation in the category of "horsefeathers".


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

And my 6 year old Strega, also using a double spring, flexes quite a bit, without any apparent negative consequences.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I would say let's move on and do good coffee, and for the haters let them hate, they have reasons to.

0:50


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I have to say that all of my initial fears regarding the Leva have been allayed and I have absolutely no regrets buying one. When I first signed up for the Leva it was not in production and there was only a prototype in existance. My main concern at the time was that my wife would not be able to operated the double spring lever, there was much talk on the strength required at the time. A bit of background - before we bought the Londinium we asked Foundry Coffee in Sheffield if she could have a go pulling a shot on theirs, and we also visited another board member in Middlesborough (sorry, forgotten your name) to have a try on his Londinium. So, having that amount of concern, it was with some trepidation that I put the deposit down on the double spring Leva. When we first got it, I was pulling the lever with both hands, now that we are used to it I don't even think about it, I pull the lever with one hand, my wife just gets on with it and never complains. So much for listening to people who have never actually used one.

Other concerns did not bother me so much; someone asked me if I wasn't concerned about being used as a prototype tester for the company. No, it didn't bother me as the specification and price were right, it is an established company using established technology and as long as I had support from the company I was happy to do any unforseen modifications should they prove necessary. Other concerns- weight on the counter, suck pistons, flexing. ease of use, reliability etc. have all been forgotten now, we just get on with using it to make coffee. A bit like being involved with HiFi equipment as a hobby, eventually you stop listening to the equipment and start listening to the music.

Honestly, I can't see me ever changing my machine, it ticks all the right boxes for me and what would I upgrade to? I have now modified my expensive tamper to fit the Leva, reasoning that I won't be needing a premium 58mm tamper for my primary machine again.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Norvin Funnily enough, that is exactly how I feel Les. Dave, Patrick and I talked volumes over the Evo project from start to where it is now. I ashamedly, have had dozens of coffee machines and I have never owned one before that satisfied the itch I always used to have. Can I ever see me getting rid? Only if they make it even better and I thought I would benefit.

Like you, I was a little bit unsure about the dual spring aspect, especially as I remember one commentator telling us years ago, that the reason their well known lever machine only had one spring, was because the strength of the dual springs destroyed the balance of lighter roasted coffee. Of course I accepted that, until it was pointed out that plenty of cafes serving non Italian style darker roasts had commercial dual springs without issue, meaning that the problem must be elsewhere......perhaps dual springs made it tip or something.

I also had concerns about dropping down to 54mm but thought, well, if it is good enough for LSM who produce the most expensive group available, some 40% more expensive than the popular Fiorenzato group, then it is good enough for me. On top of that, Paolo has had the group extensively customised by adding 2 heater cartridges meaning water is not needed to heat the group and allowing the temperature of the group to be set to the desired level, and adding a Manometer. Yes, I hear the naysayers grumble, exactly why would you want to accurately know what is happening in the group head and what pressure is being exerted when you can stumble around in the dark.....good question but I really do not feel the need to answer it when you can go work it out for yourselves!

For me, it will be interesting to see how many other 'traditional' lever manufacturers come round to the fact that in this day and age, electronics can and do make a difference.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

Elephantoplasty said:


> And my 6 year old Strega, also using a double spring, flexes quite a bit, without any apparent negative consequences.


 I know .I oned one for two years.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I would say let's move on and do good coffee, and for the haters let them hate, they have reasons to.
> 
> 0:50


 Are you kidding me.Just 48 hours on this forum and you qualify me as a hater?

I love the LSM group and am interested in any new machine on the market that uses it.

Why should I hate?

And regarding the flex.

Here's a video of my Pompei I made this morning.






So where does it flex exactly?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @Norvin
> 
> I also had concerns about dropping down to 54mm but thought, well, if it is good enough for LSM who produce the most expensive group available, some 40% more expensive than the popular Fiorenzato group, then it is good enough for me.


 I do have to correct you here @dfk41 *the Evo group costs the ACS factory 100% more than that other group*, because they have used both types.

@Levvieman Denis has not classed you as a hater, he is talking about a group of other people, not you. His reference to 0:50s in the video was to something else he mentioned earlier, many posts ago now, about holding the portafilter handle. I think perhaps you're "getting the wrong end of the stick", as we say


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I do have to correct you here @dfk41 *the Evo group costs the ACS factory 100% more than that other group*, because they have used both types.
> 
> @Levvieman Denis has not classed you as a hater, he is talking about a group of other people, not you. His reference to 0:50s in the video was to something else he mentioned earlier, many posts ago now, about holding the portafilter handle. I think perhaps you're "getting the wrong end of the stick", as we say


 Ok.My bad.Because I actually like the machine you designed.The first one like this on the market .


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Levvieman said:


> Ok.My bad.Because I actually like the machine you designed.The first one like this on the market .


 @Levvieman The machine you own, was the inspiration for me to help ACS create the Evo. I always loved the Izzo Pompeii and the beautiful group it uses...almost 20 years ago I wanted them to make a domestic 1 group, but it never happened. Seeing that group on the Vostok made me realise that a domestic twin boiler 1 group was now within my grasp. The PID heater cartridges are the icing on the cake which makes thermal control and fast warm up possible (much like the flux capacitor) 😁

The slight flex is because of the space frame style construction of the stainless steel Evo case and is nothing to worry about. Flex could have been eliminated by using cheaper thick powder coated mild steel and uninspiring construction...but why do that....when it's never going to be a problem? Except of course for some people (not you), who own another make of lever.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Levvieman The machine you own, was the inspiration for me to help ACS create the Evo. I always loved the Izzo Pompeii and the beautiful group it uses...almost 20 years ago I wanted them to make a domestic 1 group, but it never happened. Seeing that group on the Vostok made me realise that a domestic twin boiler 1 group was now within my grasp. The PID heater cartridges are the icing on the cake which makes thermal control and fast warm up possible (much like the flux capacitor) 😁


 Yep.The group is heavy and takes a while to get fully hot.Fully hot meaning the even the lever itself is hot.

With flushing I could speed it up to about 25-30 minutes

These days the machine is on a timer and in the morning when I get up is already on for a full hour.

15 minutes is pretty quick.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

A number of interesting observations:

1. Of the 20 or so Evo's now in the hands of paid owners who forked out real money then waited 6 months or so, not one has voiced a regret over their decision. In fact, the support has become literally fierce.

2. Almost immediately after any legitimate questions surface, multiple owners jump in to offer actual, factual experience and explanations.

3. Almost immediately after any questionably legitimate questions surface, multiple owners jump in to offer actual, factual experience and forceful defenses.

4. More importantly, the owners seem to be enjoying their espresso, cappuccino or whatever; light, medium or dark roasts; at various PI and brew, temperatures and times and the focus has always been on the drinks because the Evo just seems to get out of the way and deliver the goods regardless of what is asked of it. This is not the case with lesser levers which require multiple major "upgrades" to make them perform even after being on the market for literally decades.

5. By a healthy margin, owners are content with the Evo the way it is delivered, with only the choice of shower screen circlip warranting a second look. But no "mods" are suggested or offered, no major flaws unearthed, unlike the umpteen LMLM mods hoping to justify the inexplicable price but sending the real outlay to near a GS3.

I am not a social worker by trade so I do not find using excuses for things that should have been done correctly acceptable. Perhaps putting a 2" square steel frame behind the LSM may completely eliminate any visible flex but that beast would be nearly impossible to install at home if it were to also have 2 boilers, 3 PIDs, a gear pump and a water reservoir for autonomy.

Grafting the LSM group to the Vesuvius chassis is a very pragmatic approach that brought us a superb machine with an accessible price at breakneck speed. I'd say what we are witnessing is a damned good report card for the Evo and its creators (and co-conspirators) and kudo's are in order.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Levvieman said:


> Yep.The group is heavy and takes a while to get fully hot.Fully hot meaning the even the lever itself is hot.
> 
> With flushing I could speed it up to about 25-30 minutes
> 
> ...


 15 minutes is fast, as the EVO group has about 220W heating capacity because of the cartridges. A thermosyphon can't deliver that amount of heating at a sustained level with the heat loss of the group increasing by the 4th power as temperature increases.

Those loses become quite large as *your* group gets hotter *and *the thermosyphon slows down, all of which makes it slower to get to temperature. This also makes the group slightly cooler than the group on an EVO (by approx 8-10C). Of course that helps cool down the boiler water which is at steaming temperature.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> 15 minutes is fast, as the EVO group has about 220W heating capacity because of the cartridges. A thermosyphon can't deliver that amount of heating at a sustained level with the heat loss of the group increasing by the 4th power as temperature increases.
> 
> Those loses become quite large as *your* group gets hotter *and *the thermosyphon slows down, all of which makes it slower to get to temperature. This also makes the group slightly cooler than the group on an EVO (by approx 8-10C). Of course that helps cool down the boiler water which is at steaming temperature.


 Ok. Well although the LSM group on machines like for instance the LSM 80 Leva was a heat exchanger wirh a thermosyphon loup the Pompei is a pure dipper.

I did some measurements pulling shot after shot 8 years ago with a dig. thermometer and the thing was real stable.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

SL01 said:


> A number of interesting observations:
> 
> 1. Of the 20 or so Evo's now in the hands of paid owners who forked out real money then waited 6 months or so, not one has voiced a regret over their decision. In fact, the support has become literally fierce.
> 
> ...


 I am truly shocked. I come to this forum because I found this machine on youtube by accident. I found that machine interesting.

I opened a post on a dutch forum because the machinre really looked interesting.

Here it is:

https://www.koffiepraat.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=11572&start=10

Cremalover is me.

So what do I say about the Leva?

I'll translate.

1.Double boiler machine with many options.

2.It's for sale.

3.Je kunt de machine bestellen.

  

Londinium on steroids
Twee boilers apart te verwarmen,groeptemp. apart te regelen,pre infusie tot 4.2 bar regelbaar.
Twee of een veer heel snel om te bouwen zonder speciale apparatuur.( ik doe het in 15 minuten)
Drukmeter op groep voor manueel pressure profilen.
Op vast water regelbare pre infusie druk gewoon bruikbaar.
Geen weegschaal nodig.Afdruiprek registreerd wat er uit komt.
15minuten is groep op temperatuur. Toch wel extreem snel voor die massa. Met een paar flushes lukt het mij in minder dan 25 minuten. Zonder flushes 45.

Wow!

I say:

Itś a Londinium on steroids.Two boilers seperately heated.You can take out one spring very easily.Pressuregauge on group.On main water supply pressurized preinfusion still possible.No scale needed.Takes 15 minutes to heat up.Extreme fast for that mass of the group.My Pompei takes 45 minutes.

Wow! (same in dutch as in english)

Other member mentioned the flex.

I say true but the the production series get a re-inforced frame. I then say why not reinforcing the frame before going on youtube with it.

All in all I'm pretty much selling this machine for you.

In the last post a member mentioned this site and I register and ask about the flex.

Next thing I know I get questioned by two members as if I'm trolling.

Makes totally no sense.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Levvieman said:


> I am truly shocked. I come to this forum because I found this machine on youtube by accident. I found that machine interesting.
> 
> I opened a post on a dutch forum because the machinre really looked interesting.
> 
> ...


 well sometimes different Language, different approach and a troll pop up. i'm italian and often when i joke some not realize that i'm joking. So don't worry no one will kill you. in any case if you will buy one of this machine and you will remove one spring the flexing will desappear if this is the problem. ????


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> well sometimes different Language, different approach and a troll pop up. i'm italian and often when i joke some not realize that i'm joking. So don't worry no one will kill you. in any case if you will buy one of this machine and you will remove one spring the flexing will desappear if this is the problem. 😉
> 
> I've got an Izzo Pompei.For 9 years now. Isn't Pompei bigger than Vesuvius?😁


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Levvieman Who said English was an international language! I honestly doubt anyone suspects your integrity, but you can see possibly, how your first couple of posts might have been mis interpreted! For clarification, this guy is kosher!


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

well Pompei it's a city, Vesuvius only a small Mountain that in the past covered Pompei with lava and destroied everything. it's a good machine 1/3 of a professional 3 group machine with an iron squared pipe weld inside different approch and different size compared with domestic machine.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @Levvieman Who said English was an international language! I honestly doubt anyone suspects your integrity, but you can see possibly, how your first couple of posts might have been mis interpreted! For clarification, this guy is kosher!


 Thank you.😉


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> well Pompei it's a city, Vesuvius only a small Mountain that in the past covered Pompei with lava and destroied everything. it's a good machine 1/3 of a professional 3 group machine with an iron squared pipe weld inside different approch and different size compared with domestic machine.


 Ok. I thought Pompeii was still a volcano that possibly could erupt.Where's that pipe?


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

A tip for Evo owners.

Make sure the felt liner is installed in the top of the uppewr housing. In my Pompei they forgot of factory to put it in. It resulted in a worn out piston stem guide. Took 8 years to do it but it did.

This one:


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Levvieman Just in case, the Evo group is different in terms of having been updated since then, so I am not sure if the top part mentioned is the same?


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

There is a teflon guide instead of the felt.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Levvieman Just in case, the Evo group is different in terms of having been updated since then, so I am not sure if the top part mentioned is the same?


 I replaced mine with a new one.Besides the shape both are exactly the same.


----------



## Levvieman (Sep 14, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> There is a teflon guide instead of the felt.


 Ok.

I'm referring to part sm 54.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Levvieman said:


> Ok.
> 
> I'm referring to part sm 54.
> 
> View attachment 59879


 I understood even because there is only one felt and on the Evo this guide is a teflon ring open.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all more of a generic lever question here. What happens if you grind too fine and the group chokes? Since theres no release valve, how would you release the pressure and stop the shot?


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

You go get a beer and wait.....


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Turn the machine off, pull lever down and then you should be able to remove the portafilter with a minimal sneeze. Wrap a towel around if you want to minimize the mess.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Ah ok, @pinky
how does that not cause an explosion at group? Will still take your word for it


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah ok, @pinky
> how does that not cause an explosion at group? Will still take your word for it


 The group will only be at preinfusion pressure max...so a tiny sneeze, but if the machine is off and it's left, it will probably reduce fairly rapidly...The pressure gauge on the front of the group is your friend here!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> What happens if you grind too fine and the group chokes?





gearosthyd said:


> an explosion at group


 Don't think, it will. Please feel free to read my experiment, which I realise (now) is probably a stupid thing to try, here. Please be warned, it's a long post. Now my shots take 30-45 secs depending the ratio.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

gearosthyd said:


> Hey all more of a generic lever question here. What happens if you grind too fine and the group chokes? Since theres no release valve, how would you release the pressure and stop the shot?


 it's very simple if the water not go trough the pf because there is too much coffee or to fine just pull the lever a bit forward and remove the pf. This is a way the the barista do since 60 years and more.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

For the Evo, turning off the machine and then pulling the lever down should work reasonably, as the group is fed by a brew boiler that is not (or not much...) above 100C and hence not feed the group with high pressure, and has an in-line pump which won't be running and so might reduce boiler pressure driven water flow. So the strategy outlined by @pinky should largely de-pressurise the group and limit 'sneeze'.

However, with some other machines where the group is filled from an HX or service boiler at higher pressure, this is a potentially very risky strategy, and the group will re-pressurise when the lever is pulled down.

Given the risk is having almost boiling water and coffee grounds spraying around, I'd ere on the side of considerable caution.....


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Saw Paolo's reply after I replied - I defer to his experience. 🙂


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Does anyone know if the force tamper can extend far enough to tamp 18g in the 32mm ims basket?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> it's very simple if the water not go trough the pf because there is too much coffee or to fine just pull the lever a bit forward and remove the pf. This is a way the the barista do since 60 years and more.


 Pull forward? Do you mean pull it down?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

gearosthyd said:


> Pull forward? Do you mean pull it down?


 Pretty sure. On a La Pavoni - direct lever - you'd push it back up - so, presumably on a spring lever it is the opposite. On both cases, you want the piston to travel away from the coffee basket, thus relieving the pressure by increasing the available space inside the chamber.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> Pull forward? Do you mean pull it down?


 He means pull the lever just enough to see 0 or close to it on the pressure guage.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Just setup my machine and realized there is no naked portafilter in the kit.

Any recommendations on where to buy them? Are they Evo specific or would any LSM group portafilter work?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

pinky said:


> Just setup my machine and realized there is no naked portafilter in the kit.
> 
> Any recommendations on where to buy them? Are they Evo specific or would any LSM group portafilter work?


 Contact ACS, I think you should have had one....any LSM portafilter will work


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

No need to buy like dave said quick email be sorted.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

pinky said:


> Just setup my machine and realized there is no naked portafilter in the kit.
> 
> Any recommendations on where to buy them? Are they Evo specific or would any LSM group portafilter work?


 Sorry Pinky how are you so I can check why you have received the machine without the bottomless pf. Thanks and sorry for the inconvenience.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

No worries, not a big deal. I sent you an email.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Is anyone else also waiting on their machine to be shipped from the second batch?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I am 🙂. I emailed Paolo on Friday and am awaiting his reply...


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Yep, I'm in the second batch.

And mine was shipped last Friday, so some further batch 2 machines have gone out.

Watching DHL with great anticipation.....


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Yeah I've already made my second payment. Apparently my machine was supposed to go out at the end of the week last week but I've had no update.

Still waiting on an update.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> Is anyone else also waiting on their machine to be shipped from the second batch?


 yep, not long now i am hoping.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

As soon as the machines are collected by DHL they go onto their system and you receive system led information. I also have a second machine coming for a friend


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@Paolo_CorteseCould you provide some clarification here? Are the machines simply waiting for DHL in warehouse in their boxes? Or is there another manufacturing delay?


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

I'm just waiting my flight to go back in Italy but on Friday I spoke with my company and they told Me there are some delay due of DHL strike in some area and we are actually congestion with a lot of shipment hold. 
I'll update ASAP.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Thanks for taking the time for updating us Paolo. Hopefully the shipment issue clears up soon.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

That makes sense since Paolo said my machine was going to ship Friday but never got anything from DHL.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

The feet on the evo should be removable right? My custom coffee nook is 1cm too short for full lever extension but my father-in-law can make me some shorter feet from walnut hardwood.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Evo will come with transit feet attached to the pallet. You attach the feet as part of installation.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Coffer by the Casuals Mikari AA Kenya. Peach, Pears and Pineapple. 18g: 42g, 30s and cut at 6 bar pressure. The cup was very smooth, sweet and acidity wasn't muted. It was very good with milk, which I liked. My wife didn't enjoy it as we typically drink medium or medium dark. Hopefully, this will change 🙂









Edit: The group temp was 94C and the brew temp was 102C.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> The feet on the evo should be removable right? My custom coffee nook is 1cm too short for full lever extension but my father-in-law can make me some shorter feet from walnut hardwood.


 The power cord enters on a right-angled connector at the bottom (Alpha) I assume it's the same on production machines and they are not hardwired. This might affect how much shorter you can make the feet...plus the rails under the front drip tray. I'm not sure if you would get that 1cm?

In fact, might be worth checking out if you can remove a small area of 1cm in the region (above) of where the lever sits, just enough to allow the lever to go all the way back


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

For people who wont buy this cause they dont have space. If I can make it work you can make it work:

https://streamable.com/sw4woh


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Coffer by the Casuals Mikari AA Kenya. Peach, Pears and Pineapple. 18g: 42g, 30s and cut at 6 bar pressure.


 Which grinder have you?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Which grinder have you?


 Oh dear ! Jx Pro.

Manual grinder and light roast !








????


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Manual grinder and light roast !


 Coffee masochism🤣


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Anyone have any news on the DHL strike? Tried to look it up online but all of the info are from past strikes.


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

Just a little patient this are some of the forum machines ready to pick up, we have shipped 2 machines and are hold in Milan we are just waiting that everything is ok to avoid problem with storage somewhere else.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> Just a little patient this are some of the forum machines ready to pick up, we have shipped 2 machines and are hold in Milan we are just waiting that everything is ok to avoid problem with storage somewhere else.
> 
> View attachment 59971


 Think I've spotted mine 😁


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Stevebee How can you tell...is it the wand choice of Antennas?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> @Stevebee How can you tell...is it the wand choice of Antennas?


 I'm only guessing but mine has the antenna on the right, Vesuvius water tap on the left as I needed the steam on the right. I have the std steam arm on my Vesuvius and believe the antenna will give more room for bigger pitchers.

Although, having checked again maybe I had on my rose coloured specs!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Stevebee I think yours might be the second from the front on the left.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> Think I've spotted mine 😁


 me too - i went for white panels and the new/long antennas, so it stands out.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh Ahh, the excitement and anticipation.....heady stuff!


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

All those seem to have dual antenna config so definitely mine is not in that bunch. I went with antenna steam on left and mini water spout on right.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh Ahh, the excitement and anticipation.....heady stuff!


 Even more so now that it's just clicked that the DHL emails are to do with a package sent from Naples..


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

https://streamable.com/gkf6ng

The stupid acceleration in flow is from using a nice unimodal grinder with ssp brew burrs. That is a feature of the grinder and it happens to all shots regardless on the beans, dont want to think what happens to a decaf.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S it didn't look too bad, are you able to go any finer with those burrs?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I am, but I wont. The ssp unimodal brew burrs are really bad with dark roasts, to the point it's over spiced soup.

My bentwood delivers way better and tastier results.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The Evo has landed.

Now got to inspect if any damage, but outside looks perfect, then get it set up. Have a Vesuvius so familiar with some aspects of it.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> The Evo has landed.
> 
> Now got to inspect if any damage, but outside looks perfect, then get it set up. Have a Vesuvius so familiar with some aspects of it.
> 
> View attachment 60064


 Nice! Mine is still stuck in Milan...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Stevebee Nice... it's bloody heavy, but you already found that out. You are in for a real treat....enjoy.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> Nice! Mine is still stuck in Milan...


 Same here Daniel... Still haven't heard anything from DHL or Paolo 😥


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gearosthyd Hiding....


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Two issues so far.

1. No steam. Display showing the message AL02

2. No hot water. When I move the hot water tap toggle no water comes out

Any ideas ? (Especially @DavecUK )

😁


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Stevebee said:


> Any ideas ?


 Yes... 😉 - Temperature sensor disconnected.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56657-vostok-fault-al01/?do=embed&comment=801037&embedComment=801037&embedDo=findComment

🙂


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Stevebee It sounds like for some reason, the machine thinks it is set up for a 2 group.......don't ask me why! You need to go Ito the advanced menu and check through. This is the link to the online manual that will sort you out

https://sway.office.com/pQLa02FN4KX86gkG?ref=Link


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)




----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

As I told David, that board can support up to 4 groups, bet it's set itself to 2,3,or 4 groups at which point you would get a temp alarm 🚨 on the missing groups.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Don't want to claim I know anything on this machine because I actually don't but, looking at the picture provided by @Stevebee, the AL.02 is immediately above a picture of a "steam" icon. Given that, does the incorrect setup "missing group" alarm still be triggered, or should then the "AL.02" error be on top of a second "water" icon (rather than a steam icon)?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

It's set up correctly as 1 group. Paolo has already replied, suspecting a disconnected temp sensor. I emailed a photo showing the top of the service boiler but to me all connections appear connected. Haven't followed the sensor wire to the other end of the wire as it means more disassembly so I'll wait to see if that is needed when Paolo has had a chance to look at the photo


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

@Stevebee If you look on Davec instruction vid/ picture the sensor wire appears to connect to a socket on another cable to the left of the photo. Just worth a check ?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Stevebee said:


> It's set up correctly as 1 group. Paolo has already replied, suspecting a disconnected temp sensor.


 And that's what I call service. No private forum nonsense, no ticketing system. Just genuine help. 👍


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

is there a nut missing bottom left? or is that how they are?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Between Dave and Paolo it looks to be sorted - I hope. The wires on the temp sensor are quite short so the connect to another set via a plastic connector. This was disconnected. Just reconnected so will find out soon if the issues is sorted but I'm sure that it will be. Pretty rapid response so thanks - including those on the forum


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Don't want to claim I know anything on this machine because I actually don't but, looking at the picture provided by @Stevebee, the AL.02 is immediately above a picture of a "steam" icon. Given that, does the incorrect setup "missing group" alarm still be triggered, or should then the "AL.02" error be on top of a second "water" icon (rather than a steam icon)?












I have been busy with a machine evaluation today!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

It's now powering up as it should - impressive response time in dealing with this @DavecUK one @Paolo_Cortese

thanks again


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Stevebee As annoying as this must have been for you, I am glad it was sorted out quickly! I think there is a definite advantage for forum members who become owners, having access to @DavecUK as well as forum member @Paolo_Cortese. I cannot think of any other forums who can offer members such a service. It must provide additional peace of mind!


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

So for the ones that got their machine today, did you get a tracking number from DHL prior or did they just show up?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Tracking said by the 4th Oct. A text said it would be delivered today and it was


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@Stevebee ditto I have a Vesuvius so dead keen to know how they compare..


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@GrahamSPhillips


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @GrahamSPhillips


 Aw don't! Praise be to you lot I've already spent a bloody fortune.. (plus I've ordered a Gevi 2in1)


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> Tracking said by the 4th Oct. A text said it would be delivered today and it was


 But I assume you received an email stating that you're receiving an item, right? I think that was gus's question.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd If the system has not changed since I received mine in the first batch, then this is what happened to me.

The day the machine is collected and booked onto the DHL system, you will get an email telling you it has been collected. When it leaves Italy, you will receive an email telling you it is en route, but at this point better off clicking the tracing link

Once booked into DHL here, the tracking will say something like to be delivered by and that date will be a week ahead, but it normally turns up within a day or so. Whilst all this is happening (and once it is on its way to UK) you will receive a request to pay the vat. Your machine cannot be released until that is done


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> Whilst all this is happening (and once it is on its way to UK) you will receive a request to pay the vat. Your machine cannot be released until that is done


 Are you based in the EU? I was under the impression that for EU customers that the VAT had already been paid.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> @gearosthyd If the system has not changed since I received mine in the first batch, then this is what happened to me.
> 
> The day the machine is collected and booked onto the DHL system, you will get an email telling you it has been collected. When it leaves Italy, you will receive an email telling you it is en route, but at this point better off clicking the tracing link
> 
> Once booked into DHL here, the tracking will say something like to be delivered by and that date will be a week ahead, but it normally turns up within a day or so. Whilst all this is happening (and once it is on its way to UK) you will receive a request to pay the vat. Your machine cannot be released until that is done


 i got a notification email from dhl. Its just/finally left Milan, so i am assuming ill get a vat payment request shortly.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd I am UK based matey


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

similar to @dfk41. Once VAT paid I got a tracking notice saying it will be delivered by 4 Oct. This seems to be an "at the latest" date as it arrived one week earlier, yesterday. On the day received a text to say it would be delivered that day


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @gearosthyd I am UK based matey


 Ah OK, I guess because of Brexit now you'd have to pay VAT. I'm fairly sure EU members don't right now, but if someone from the EU has, please correct me.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Did a few preliminary tests between the Evo and Vesuvius, trying to match the profiles / shot time and output. Put 20g in an IMS 32 basket, target 44g out. Dialled to take 40 seconds. I suspected that the deeper bed depth would play a significant part and it turned out that way.

Initially, replicated the timing and pressure shown on the gauge on the V program. This ran way too fast. Had to reduce the pressure at each of the steps to get close to 44g in 40 secs. Will try this on the Decent as I believe it will be the same i.e lower pressure profile to get the same ratio / timings as its also 58mm on the Decent. When I have put the same pressure profile on the V as the Decent, they ran almost the same.

Flavour profile is excellent on the Evo with great body. This is with a medium, q10 days post roast.

As an aside, was seeing the overshoot on the brew boiler that some have experienced previously. Changed the B value to 50 and it has solved this issue. I think the B number is not a straight temp translation but all I know is the changed made the machine act as I expected so happy now 😀


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I'm in France and the delivery with DHL is a bit peculiar... No extra VAT to pay, but DHL was planning a delivery next week even though the machine arrived yesterday morning at a DHL warehouse less than 60 miles away... I had to call them to reschedule and am now expecting a delivery tomorrow (They can't tell me when it'll arrive during the day, despite selecting an early morning slot)... Looking forward to tomorrow 😀


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Stevebee Once you get it set up, then it's a matter of simply being happy with the preinfusion pressure...as I don't find it that critical most people seem happy with anything from 1.7 to 2.5 bar. You won't change it after that.

You will get to know the temps you like for different coffees and realise it only takes a minute or so for the group to achieve the change in temp (because it's not thermosyphon controlled), most of the time you won't need to change brew temp.

Then the machine should just blend away into the background....you will even forget that once you needed scales for every shot...not just when dialling in a new coffee....the 15 minute warmup will seem completely normal and the great shots exactly as expected.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Stopped using weighing shots since my Evo arrived - just let the group pressure gauge to decline to 6 bar and then end the shot. Produces replicable 1:2 - 1:2.5 outputs every time. Makes pulling shots that much easier.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> I'm in France and the delivery with DHL is a bit peculiar... No extra VAT to pay, but DHL was planning a delivery next week even though the machine arrived yesterday morning at a DHL warehouse less than 60 miles away... I had to call them to reschedule and am now expecting a delivery tomorrow (They can't tell me when it'll arrive during the day, despite selecting an early morning slot)... Looking forward to tomorrow 😀


 Nice! Congratulations. I hope you enjoy it. Yeah that's what I'd expect right now for Germany too.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I also don't use scales at all. I cut the shot at 6 bar, which consistently gives me 43-45g on 18g coffee. It typically takes 30-32s.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

The stop at 6 bar works really well. The cup clearance with a scale is quite low but it doesn't matter as like everyone else I'll be using the gauge to pull the shot. Is also giving me 43-45g


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Got some standout Colombian naturals from Sabins roasters in Cornwall. First attempt at dialling in resulted in shots running short at 18-19 secs. Thought they would be undrinkable but was surprised to find they were perfectly drinkable.

Putting this down to the pressure profile of double spring set up plus the higher brew temp I'm using compared to previous set up.

Anyone else had a similar experience?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I had a similar situation recently with a Kenyan coffee, which requires a very fine grind. Initially it was a gusher, 18g in, 40g out in 21 sec, 10s. Pre infusion at 2 bar and then 9bar for the remainder 11 seconds. Perfectly drinkable to be honest.

Maybe certain coffees are more "suitable" for gushers than others?

Ps: I have a Lelit Elizabeth, not the V Evo. 😉


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Maybe certain coffees are more "suitable" for gushers than others?


 Think you have a point.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Since more people will receive this more and more it would be good to say something about the temp range, so you have a easier start with:

- if you drink dark roasts (blends, oilly beans, 2nd crack beans) boost the temp high, a starting point would be 98-100C brew boiler and 90/92C group (keep a 8C off-set between them)

- if you drink medium, full city, espresso roasts but not high acidity stuff, decrease the temp 2-3C from the above

96/88 or 98/90C

-for light stuff, nordic roasts, cinnamon, filter roasts (underdeveloped beans) used as espresso the sweet spot is a bit narrow and it depends more on water composition, grinder (burrs) and how much extraction you get from the grinder.

I would start with 94 for the brew boiler and 86C for the grouphead, and from those values only downwards.

Some other users with different machines confirmed that on some dark roasts they preferred a much higher brewing temp (94C water temp) on a Decent or a Bianca/ECM e61. For light roasts they do use a lower temp.

So this is against the theory that the darker the roasts the lower the temp, I do not know why yet.

Darker roasts are lacking a lot of acidity, so the increase in temperature is not boosting the acidity over the top like on a light roast. The light roasts at a much higher temp, becomes harsh, high acidity, all the floral and delicate notes are dead. Decent users are pulling for more than 12 months now at 88-87C light roasted coffee with a drop (we are speaking of filter coffee from Manhattan, Friedhats, Nomad, Sei, Facsimile, Tim Wendelboe)

88-87C on a Decent (slurry puck temp) is closer to a 90-91C on a normal machine. I believe a 94/86 C temp on the Evo is close to something like that, but I can't prove anything and I go by taste.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

... and another Evo has landed !

I just received and unpacked Evo #025. It's my first proper espresso machine as I've been using (and maintaining) full auto machines up until then (ignoring a Krups "espresso looking machine" with a thermocoil). I don't feel qualified to comment seriously on the finer details of espresso preparation but here are some initial observations by a layman...

My machine arrived with only one wooden leg left on its box courtesy of DHL, but the box protected the content well and all is fine and dandy (including the extra Vostok wands and the 3 white panels which I added to my order of a standard shiny box with Vesuvius wands).

Unpacking and setting up was straightforward thanks to the clear instructions from the manual which DaveC wrote (there are no instructions in the box itself). Don't expect 'Apple' like packaging and finish (there are a few hidden sharp edges and some components like the water tank are a bit generic), but the machine feels well build. It is relatively heavy but I was more surprised by how big it feels.

While waiting for the machine to be delivered, fill a few large jugs of water as the initial flushing will require way more water than what an Osmio Zero can store!

The accessories are packaged in cardboard rather than in a wooden tray, which is just as efficient and I'd rather not pay for something which will go straight to my attic! The scope of delivery has been mostly documented by others (3 portafilters with wooden handles, two steam tips, a full group maintenance kit, etc.), I was surprised to get 2 large sized baskets (they seem identical) rather than just one and 3 spare shower screens (they each look a bit different, but it may be due to manufacturing variations), in addition the scope of delivery included two spare steel circlips, 4 allen screws (presumably for the LSM group), various gaskets and a few parts which I haven't identified yet. It is certainly nice to have everything to get started (besides ground coffee!) in the kit, with a working tamper, a towel(!) and a group brush.

There is some slight rattle at the junction between the drip tray and the body of the machine, and with the two steel mesh grids, but nothing dramatic and which silicon pads won't solve (metal on metal contact requires very tight tolerances).

I got a bit confused by the 3 silicon hoses which are loose in the water tank as I was only expecting two (per the instructions), and as the moldings at the bottom of the plastic tank seem to be of no use on this machine... but putting the hose with a sensor and the one with a filter as low as practical in the tank seemed logical and yielded good results.

Handling the double spring lever is not that hard, but it clearly deserves to be treated with some respect and a bit of 'training' is required as it can catch people by surprise (make sure the handles are properly screwed by the way!)

So far, I've only made one test shot using my fairly new Niche and some Lidl coffee (I promise I'll do better, but to season the grinder and with my full auto machines these beans give some quite respectable results)... Maybe it's beginner's luck, but it went very smoothly (pre-infusion lasted around 5 seconds, and the machine produced a 2:1 double espresso with good crema some 25-30 seconds later). No gushing or issues with the naked portafilter either. Using the default temperatures, the coffee tasted a bit more acidic than what my automatic Gaggia Titanium produces, but it was perfectly acceptable.

I did try steaming milk too, and this was the biggest surprise... there is a world of difference between a single hole tip thermocoil and the Evo leva at its defaut 130C and a three hole tip... This feels like a real game changer (and it eliminates any excuses I had for variable texture!)

-

As I'm also curious, I played with the various menus, and noticed that the temperature unit setting has moved to the system menu (It is right after the "GpNum" setting, under the "UoM" heading, with the option to choose between 'C' and 'F'), at least in firmware version 02.06)... I'm curious what the 'lightbulb' setting does in the settings menu, where the C/F setting used to be...

By the way, all my PIDB settings were the same (2.0,0,5,5 respectively), but these seem to give good temperature stability based on my initial checks... all good!

As to body flex and pump noise, frankly I feel these are non-issues in practice (yes, there is some flex if one looks at videos, but it's hardly noticeable in use... any steel box flexes under stress and I'll always remember visiting a factory where supposedly tough trucks were made and where it jumped at you until the truck cabins came out of the paint booth ;-). The pump noise isn't super pleasant, but it's not very loud and doesn't last long.

Clearly I'm at the very beginning of a steep learning curve, but, between the resources of this forum, the Evo Leva and my Niche, I could hardly be in better starting blocks. This is a really exciting machine, and the only one which ticked all my requirements. Thank you DaveC and Paolo Cortese for making it a reality as it is a very unique proposition in the market.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Nice to see the Tupperware containers catching on


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

As people say, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery 😇


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> ... I'm curious what the 'lightbulb' setting does in the settings menu, where the C/F setting used to be...


 Welcome @Eiffel! You will love the Evo!

The "lightbulb" setting you see is a transplant from the Vostok where it toggles the LED lights. There are no lights on the Evo but the setting stayed and is not active. @Paolo_Cortesedid not answer my question when I inquired if LEDs would be in the Evo's future - but I think the tongue-in-cheek question was rather "Lost in Translation".

Frankly the Evo learning curve is not as steep as I thought because I kept all the variables in a straight line and tackled only one at a time. Test, repeat, then document success or failure before moving on. It is tempting but the Evo will reward a disciplined approach.

Congrats once again and get ready for a ride you will not soon forget!


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Eiffel said:


> ... and another Evo has landed !
> 
> I just received and unpacked Evo #025. It's my first proper espresso machine as I've been using (and maintaining) full auto machines up until then (ignoring a Krups "espresso looking machine" with a thermocoil). I don't feel qualified to comment seriously on the finer details of espresso preparation but here are some initial observations by a layman...
> 
> ...


 Congratulations and welcome to the club!

If you are planning to use small quantities of milk (150-200ml. )I recommend lowering the steam temp between 120°Cand 125°C as 130°C was too much for me!

Also the gear pump noise I was really concern, and as you say is not engaged long at all, not loud at all and, compared with a vibration pump, waaaaay more pleasant sound!

Play, enjoy, learn, and show us a picture when (if) you install the white panels!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Never gets old:


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

> 10 hours ago, Denis S said:
> 
> Never gets old:


 Yep! I remember this! Very funny. Just don't give @dfk41 any ideas!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yep! I remember this! Very funny. Just don't give @dfk41 any ideas!


 Agreed, we might see him bite into a sausage with the same reaction to it's juiciness.. 🤣


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MediumRoastSteam Only for milk I am afraid......doubt I will be allowed to post the video that would explain why I said that, but if you want a clue, it is on my Youtube channel. Making mistakes whilst steaming milk

https://www.youtube.com/user/dfk41/videos


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)




----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Another Evo has landed, this one in Oz. Took 12 days to get here, but in reality, the tracking showed it was within 40km of my home for 5 days before it eventually turned up. No legs on the pallet, but the box itself in good condition, and the machine is unmarked.

All set up, but first espresso will have to wait for the morning.

In the meantime, a couple of questions:



The instructions say to make sure the portafilter is locked on so that the handle is in line with the machine. There's no way I can get near that - the photo below shows it about as far is it wants to go on. Makes me nervous that I'll have a portafilter flying around. Is this representative of what other people are seeing? I've left it on for an hour or so to get the group nice and hot, but it doesn't really want to go on any further.


The brew boiler in particular wanders 2 or more degrees above and below the set point. Are other people seeing this, and have you fiddled with the PID settings to try and make it a bit more stable?


Thanks for your help.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Elephantoplasty The bottomless is tighter than the spouted if I remember. It beds in over time and a couple of months in mine is nearer then 6 o'clock position than yours. I have never felt unsafe using it! All of the display temp settings wander a bit. Think of the pressure gauge on a machine. It heats up to say 1.3 bar then cycles down to say 1 bar etc etc.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Switching to IMS baskets in the naked portafilter locks it more towards 6 o'clock.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

I've got an IMS basket for it. I plan on using it, so that is encouraging.

Sounds like what I am seeing isn't attypical, so that is good

Thanks.

Looking forward to the morning so I can christen it!


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

@Elephantoplasty My portafilters work the same way as yours (in my case the bottomless one is no different from the two others). It's early days for me, but even if I can't lock them at '6 o'clock', the lock seems pretty strong


----------



## Pasturemaster (Jun 15, 2021)

Elephantoplasty said:


> I've got an IMS basket for it. I plan on using it, so that is encouraging.
> 
> Sounds like what I am seeing isn't attypical, so that is good
> 
> ...


 What time should I drop in?
What beans should I bring?
15km??


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Elephantoplasty said:


> I've got an IMS basket for it. I plan on using it, so that is encouraging.
> 
> Sounds like what I am seeing isn't attypical, so that is good
> 
> ...


 Once locked in position, trust me, it won't blow off under full spring pressure.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Elephantoplasty said:


> Another Evo has landed, this one in Oz. Took 12 days to get here, but in reality, the tracking showed it was within 40km of my home for 5 days before it eventually turned up. No legs on the pallet, but the box itself in good condition, and the machine is unmarked.
> 
> All set up, but first espresso will have to wait for the morning.
> 
> ...


 @Elephantoplasty another member in the club and in the beautiful downunder. Welcome, mate! I have to say the wood handle look perfectly matched to your wood floors!

The short answer on the portafilter is that for me, it changed ever so slightly with time. When mine arrived early August, what you showed in the pictures was also all that I could do. Now nearly 2 months later, it lines up nearly at 6pm if not just a tad past. I used the IMS 26M basket since the beginning. My guess is that the seal settled in after time and yielded a bit. To counteract potential wear, my portafilter stays off the group until the Evo's turned on at which point it goes into place for its morning warm-up.

On the temperature "hunting", mine did that also, albeit a bit less, and after a prompt from my good friend @Like Medium Strong Coffee to peek inside the PID settings, I found the PID settings from the factory exactly as they needed to be, and I just let it do its job which seems to be doing just fine where it counts, in the cup.

An additional thought - I also opened the top and poked inside the machine - with it unplugged of course - to wiggle each of the electrical connectors. Even the most careful assembly at the factory can benefit from keen eyes against bad connections especially when the machine is subject to thermal expansion and cooling cycles. So far, all is well and the Evo hums on.

Happy pulling!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@Elephantoplasty another owner, @rusty pie, had the same issue of temperature overshoot. For him it was almost 4c over before gradually returning. I believe after fiddling with the PID settings, he found that changing either the P,I or D had minimal effect but when he changed the B value from 5 to 50 it solved the problem. Not everyone seems to have this issue so there is no consensus but you could just change it back to default if you change your mind. I know B is meant to be the temp range where it acts as a PID, outside its on/off. I am assuming the 5 represents temperature but not sure as some felt is was a factor or bias. Might help.

Only seems to be on the brew boiler


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*End user Upgrade/modification 😁*

Removal of Capacitor 4

*Severity and Impact*

Immense irritation for me cos Gicar fecked up, possibly an occasional tiny noise for you...impact other than that = zero

*Affected Machines*

Any Evo already shipped, that makes a noise pulsing the pump...not all will. Evos shipping from the factory from Today have been modified already

*Background (slight tech warning)*

Just a little update to owners....as you know I have a slightly different machine, the Alpha test bed, and it's not laid out the same as yours. It also had a problem with a "pump heartbeat" every 1.7s. In mine, I have to remove capacitor C4 on the main board. It was reported to Gicar for the Evo boards, mine was a reflashed Vostok board, and they "fixed it"...your firmware is a bit different to mine. *Only they didn't fix it completely unless Capacitor 4 was still removed....they just didn't tell anyone that*. The factory didn't pick up on this because the noise level is such, it cannot be heard in the factory.

C4 is used for the optional 230V Vostok external pump, when left on the board it forms a timing circuit as it charges and discharges, which fires one of the SSRs controlling the pump.

*Symptom*

You "might" hear your pump pulsing every 3-4 seconds, it's very quiet, though. If you do, and want to stop it because it's irritating (it won't actually cause any damage), follow the procedure below. *If you can't hear a thing....don't bother*, especially as it won't damage anything....you will simply get a tiny flux in the pump winding occasionally.

*The fix (estimated time 10m, difficulty = easy, tools required = minimal).*

remove the right hand side panel and underneath in the electronics bay is the main board, remove the cover. The offending capacitor at C4 is identified with the arrow









Grab some long nosed pliers









You're all set. Now, Paolo isn't a patient or gentle man, and he was holding a video camera. I recommend you support the board/case with one hand and give more and gentler/smaller wiggles....it will still fall off. Grip the capacitor about halfway deep, this way you don't risk any damage to the board. The whole process takes about 10 min and @Stevebee has already done his if you need any reassurance. *Obviously, unplug the machine before doing this.*

View attachment c4 tooth removal.mp4


Have fun!


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@Elephantoplasty Just done a bit of measuring using various B numbers for the brew boiler

At Idle (Target 100c)

B=5 (default) Cycle time 4:45 Max overshoot 101.7

B=30. Cycle time 2:35. Max overshoot 100.9

B=50. Cycle time 2:00. Max overshoot 100.6

After flushing to bring temp down (temp went to 85c before heater kicked in)

B=5 (default) Cycle time 13:00 Max overshoot 105.0

B=30. Cycle time 9:00 Max overshoot 103.0

B=50. Cycle time 5:00 Max overshoot 101.0

So changing B to a higher number reduces overshoot, especially after flushing / shot but at the expense of a quicker cycle time at idle.

There may be other parameters you could change but I just focussed on B as another user had tried the other ones

If you tried the same on your machine would be interesting to see if its the same


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

I see the same effect of changing B. My brew boiler was overshooting by about 2.5 degrees at idle, now it's less than a degree.

I wonder if the position of the temp sensor in relation to the heaters is what's causing this. It's pretty obvious that the PID cannot handle the dead time between applying the heat and detecting the change of temperature and overreacts.

I also played with adjusting Kd which is meant to counter overshoot. However, increasing it had the exact opposite effect.

Maybe there are more bugs in the firmware?

It would be really interesting to get the Gicar board manual to see what B is exactly.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pinky To stop it overshooting, you're better off reducing P....D is locking the stable door after the horse has bolted

There are no firmware bugs around the PID functions, they have been in the Board since production of the board by Gicar started, never changed, by ACS


----------



## JohanR (May 8, 2021)

Sorry for butting in as a non-Evo owner, but I have been following this thread with great interest and have also been wondering what the exact definition of the B-parameter is. As far as I can tell it defines the proportionality band for the control function, typically called u(t). For a P-controller

u(t) = Kp * ( T_set - T_measured)

whereas for a PID you also add the integral and derivative terms. So if Kp=5 and the temperature is 1 degC too low then u(t)=5 degC for the P-controller. Now if B=5 degC then this means that the heating element is on at its maximal value, since u(t)=B. Increasing B to 50 degC would instead lower the heating to 10% of the max in the same situation.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> *End user Upgrade/modification 😁*
> 
> Removal of Capacitor 4
> 
> ...


 Just as a word of warning - my machine arrived today, so I thought I would attempt. Capacitor removal very easy. Getting the side panel back on, less so...


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

danielpugh said:


> Getting the side panel back on, less so...


 Initially I was the same but get the 2 screws in loosely, either top or bottom, and the give it a gentle 'thump' and it goes into position. Taken the side off a number of times now and this approach seems to work


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> Initially I was the same but get the 2 screws in loosely, either top or bottom, and the give it a gentle 'thump' and it goes into position. Taken the side off a number of times now and this approach seems to work


 All back together now, and only took an hour. Now to start the beast up!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

danielpugh said:


> Now to start the beast up!


 15 minutes and counting down.... 🤣


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> 15 minutes and counting down.... 🤣


 So had to wiggle the water tank to get it to start sucking. Gear pump much quieter than expected. need to get an adaptor to fit the mains plumbing (duetto was 3/8, think Evo is maybe 1/2 - any confirmation would be good from anyone who knows for certain).

Panicky first lever pull. Steam very good compared to my duetto as a first impression. Wobbly bit of latte. Tasted very good! To be totally truthful - absolutely knackered so real testing starts tomorrow.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh White side panels look very smart.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

The Evo comes with a 1/2" to 1/8" reducer and 1/2" braided hose so I had to get a 3/8" to 1/8" reducer to fit my existing braided hose.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I want to talk a tiny bit about water but dont want to make a mess about it. What water are you guys using? when was using the Decent it was more permissive in therms of recipes because I would change and make a lot of water from distilled and added minerals or a mix with bwt water and minerals/distilled. Speaking with some people, and having some material on it, the SCA book of water it seems like everything under 35/40 kH is not good for espresso machine boilers cause of corrosion. The Decent has no real boiler, so not afraid about that.

I'm using a 80dH/35kH water for now that I mix with distilled (zero water jug) epsom salt and baking soda. The water i'm making sits at ~100-120tds on my cheap tds meter.

Maybe some people use ultra soft water like 30-40ppm/tds total and I think that can cause corrosion into a boiler. As you see i;m more concerned about corrosion rather than scaling.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S AISI 316L and thick boilers, no worries about corrosion.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Denis S - Denis, for what's worth, I've been using distilled water remineralised with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) - see my signature. This has been the case for almost two years now. I remove the dispersion plate of my machine regularly - it's made of brass, and there's no signs of corrosion, what so ever. similarly, no corrosion signs around the vacuum breaker, or the OPV. Of course, I never really opened the boiler to check things. I know that Dave has been using RO water remineralised for a long, long time and never had any issues what so ever.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S I am pretty uncomplicated and blessed with kippers for taste buds. I used to chop and change my machines several times a year so was never really bothered about water. Then when I had to retire I had to start thinking about keeping equipment so water became an issue. I had an L1 and with that single boiler, due to the HX on it if you needed to descale it meant taking the boiler out and doing it the hard way!

I therefore bought an Osmio Zero and I happily use the water it produces without adding anything back in!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Like Dave and dfk41, we also use Osmio zero without adding anything.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Lots of good info guys, thanks.

@DavecUK, perfect timing on the 'heartbeat'. I had my new machine sitting a bit last night, and running a bit of water through it periodically, and noticed the faint regular ticking. Good to know what it is, and that it is an easy fix for the next time I need to move the machine - having just got it in position, not rushing to move it again for a few days. It's a heavy bugger..... 🙂 .


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Elephantoplasty All the PID parameters at the factory setting were way off the mark. I had wider variations. Dave provided me a new set of parameters for my machine. They were:

Group PID

Kp 2.0, Ki 0.04, Kd = 5.0, B 5

Coffee Kp 2.0, Ki 0.04, Kd = 5.0, B 5

Stream

Kp 10.0, Ki 0.00, Kd = 5.0, B 5

Later the brew setting was changed to Kp 1.2, Ki 0.04, Kd = 8.0, B 10.

I was still getting a 3.5-4C overshoot. Once the boiler stabilises, the overshoot was still 2.5C - 3C.

Since then, I have been changing the P and D slightly. My current brew settings stand at Kp 0.8, Ki 0.04, Kd = 12, B 50. The overshot is 1C - 1.5C and stable range is 0.5C either way. I am happy with this, although I might try to tweak the P lower a little. But, when I pull a shot, the brew boiler is now always in the set point zone.

Thanks!


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @Elephantoplasty All the PID parameters at the factory setting were way off the mark. I had wider variations. Dave provided me a new set of parameters for my machine. They were:
> 
> Group PID
> 
> ...


 That's very interesting....Kindly keep us informed fn your progress.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I want to talk a tiny bit about water but dont want to make a mess about it. What water are you guys using? when was using the Decent it was more permissive in therms of recipes because I would change and make a lot of water from distilled and added minerals or a mix with bwt water and minerals/distilled. Speaking with some people, and having some material on it, the SCA book of water it seems like everything under 35/40 kH is not good for espresso machine boilers cause of corrosion. The Decent has no real boiler, so not afraid about that.
> 
> I'm using a 80dH/35kH water for now that I mix with distilled (zero water jug) epsom salt and baking soda. The water i'm making sits at ~100-120tds on my cheap tds meter.
> 
> Maybe some people use ultra soft water like 30-40ppm/tds total and I think that can cause corrosion into a boiler. As you see i;m more concerned about corrosion rather than scaling.


 @Denis S My water is an under sink RO with 9 stages including Ca and Mg reinfusion called the "Home Master TMHP-L". It needs AC for the UV sterilization lamp but does not require any power otherwise. We picked it after months of research has probably the highest user satisfaction with 84% ⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐ on Amazon. One reviewer inserted a TDS monitor and reported 22ppm.

It's listed in Amazon UK and Amazon DE, although unavailable on both currently.

Amazon UK

Amazon DE

It looks like a massive hairball to install but it took only 45 minutes and putting in 2 screws.

We are very happy with the choice because there is abundant pressure and noticed a dramatic improvement in taste. Dried puddles of water leaves no visible residue which means we don't have to worry about boilers scaling at all.

We also started to use this water in our electric kettle that we bought new. The kettle arrived about a month before the RO and started to leave a faint film of mineral on the heating surface even having used filtered water. After a week of using the RO water, the film is gone and is now 99% invisible. Bonus!


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> So had to wiggle the water tank to get it to start sucking. Gear pump much quieter than expected. need to get an adaptor to fit the mains plumbing (duetto was 3/8, think Evo is maybe 1/2 - any confirmation would be good from anyone who knows for certain).
> 
> Panicky first lever pull. Steam very good compared to my duetto as a first impression. Wobbly bit of latte. Tasted very good! To be totally truthful - absolutely knackered so real testing starts tomorrow.
> View attachment 60149
> ...


 @danielpugh You have excellent taste in panel color and arms choice 🙂


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

"The recommended heritage SCAE Core Zone for espresso machines and brew boilers is illustrated in Figure 8. This graph combines technical aspects to enable a safe operation while taking into account sensory considerations that result in a high-quality brew. The lower left and upper border area of the core zone is shaped by the technical thresholds for corrosion prevention, and to the right, by the maximum scale formation of 30 mg/L in a steam boiler at 130 °C, or 12 mg/L in a brew boiler of an espresso machine. The lower border of the core zone recommendation is based on Colonna-Dashwood and Hendon's line of minimal recommended total hardness and alkalinity"

As you can see to be safe and have no corrosion you must have a minimum of 35-40ppm Calcium or Na or alkalinity/kH.

I also used water from a total of 20-40 tds total (so definitely not having that 35-40kH) but in my previous machines, most of them open boilers (no brass or stainless) or in my decent that doesn't have a boiler.

My kettle shows signs of corrosion by using a really soft water and it's stainless, after one year of use.


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Looking to plumb in the drip tray. There is a long black plastic rod screwed in the back of the tray. Any idea how to disassemble so a hose can be attached? @danielpugh @pinky - UPDATE Sorted - it's a simple compression fitting - doh!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> *If you can't hear a thing....don't bother*,


 Thanks Dave!

My tinnitus !









It's probably for better, I think ????


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Stevebee said:


> Looking to plumb in the drip tray. There is a long black plastic rod screwed in the back of the tray. Any idea how to disassemble so a hose can be attached? @danielpugh @pinky - UPDATE Sorted - it's a simple compression fitting - doh!


 Good to know - I don't have a drain sorted yet, although got the mains incoming sorted earlier, along with the timer settings and baskets. Mains/plumbing is cool - liking how it uses mains pressure to fill the reservoir. Apart from yesterday's diversion (annoyed at self for putting a scratch on the brand new paint job), very happy and all expectations met or exceeded I think. Hopefully some time tomorrow to tweak some temperature settings...


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Capadectomy operation successful. Patient healthy.









Patient now has no heartbeat...


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Norvin capadectomy...love it😁


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Anyone has a video on how the machine behaves with that capacitor installed?

Mine was shipped and picked up in August, when in idle I do not hear anything beside one 1 sec pump every 10 mins maybe? like a short thing but not every 1 minute for sure, rarely.

Then while pulling a shot, pressure set at 2 bar in PI, pump stop after it reaches pressure, and if the pressure declines because the coffee drips in the cup the pump will engage shorty one more time again for 1 sec.

Are you guys saying that in idle the machine should make 0 noise always and that thing I heard is from the capacitor?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Took out my phidget temp sensor from roasting (1.5mm pro sensors that are calibrated and checked with 3 kettles at 100C and 0 C water) and inserted it into the double spouted PF with a sponge into the PF (no basket) and the sensor deep inside the sponge, to pick up the water temp from the flush).

I flushed 5 sec to see the temp peak in the extraction. 5 sec is also how much it takes for the pump to cut off when you start the preinfusion so we have an idea about temperature of extraction, so we can correlate with our older machine, or other's machine if you want, if not take it as a joke. I always say I go by taste, not by what others tell me.

My most of the time extraction temp is with the brew boiler set to 93-93.5C and the group at 85C this works for my light roasts really good. This temp is horrible for darker roast, I tried Saka with this temp and it was bad and flat.

I set the brew temp at 100C and the group at 92C since most of you pull like that. The water temperature probe was starting at 95-95.5 and then after finishing those 5 sec flush went to 96C. There might be some delay into the sensor or the total mass of new water heats up the rest in the sponge, or the PF is heated from 92C group temp to 96C (by the 100c brew boiler water). Clearly we can agree the water that hits the coffee puck is in the 95.5-96C temperature range.

After that, I set the brew boiler temp to 94C and my group at 86C (keep in mind I keep the 8C offset for a reason). The water hitting the puck is in between 89 and 90C. So we can all agree that if you keep a 8C off-set between the brew and group, you will have a in the middle value for the brew water.

We can also agree, that after the 125g of water enters the group after finishing the preinfusion pump the temperature will only go a bit up to raise the group/coffee puck temp up and then from that only down, since the group is heated but set at 86C and the 90C water that was injected after 5 sec will cool down towards that 86C during that 25-30 sec shot time. It is normal and better in most cases to have a temp drop of a few C during the shot. From my experiments I get better results like that, and this is how I pulled on my last 3-4 machines, with a temp preset to decrease a few C.

If you are curious the temp drop after 30 sec from the bellow "fake shots" is a drop of 2C.

Have a great weekend and make some delicious coffee. Tomorrow I have some guests to check the Leva (coffee enthusiasts) one of them is even waiting for his 2nd batch soon to be delivered Leva.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Great stuff Denis.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Had a great meeting today with plenty of good coffee. We all agreed on the temp, on light stuff 94/86C is the winner with small adjustments around those values for filter roasts.

Once we moved to dark roasts at the end, just to try it out we agreed 100/92C is the spot for it.

I also got the motta "53mm" dosing cup that doesn't fit any of the baskets - n'or the ims or the stock baskets it wont enter in the basket all the way

And I did get these silicone gaskets and changed to the blue one. Was easy to remove the old black rubber one to this new silicone one. I did do it while the machine was hot so the rubber is flexible, and I did take some time to clean under there.

Now the naked portafilter with the ims basket locks with medium force at 6 a clock.

I found it a bit funny that the volume I stop at for my light roasts is 40-42g, and I pull in a small 350ml milk pitcher and then split into 3 cups (each with their own cup model). The volume is at the limit for 3 people, so all can taste it at the same time and express their findings related to taste.


----------



## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

Denis S said:


> on light stuff 94/86C is the winner with small adjustments around those values for filter roasts.


 Hi, what is the full recipe? Dose/Yield, approx shot time and grind size if compared to dark roast?

By any chance you were able also to measure EY%?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

18.5 to 40g out in 23-30 sec range

Puck prep, bplus, bravo tamper on top set to max.

180-200 microns on Bentwood (that's peak distribution size too according to their laser analysis on grinds)

EY% in the 22-24% range depends on beans.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

@Denis S What silicone gasket did you use? The Cafelat 66mm x 56mm x 6mm?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@gus6464 I used this one:

https://shop.mokaconsorten.com/Siebtraeger-Gruppen-Dichtung-San-Marco-Silikon-aussen-64-innen-53-Dicke-55-mm-64x53x55-blau

Forgot to mention, please dont make fun of me because there is no steam wand on my machine. 🤣


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Denis S said:


> Forgot to mention, please dont make fun of me because there is no steam wand on my machine. 🤣


 Thought for a minute you didn't realise it was facing the wrong way but only making espressos explains it 😀


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Evo had it's first run out at the Market this weekend, over 300 coffees just on Sunday (between 2 machines). Worked a treat and very temp stable. Shots have great body and by using the gauge to pull the shot very consistent output. Means no scales ruined by always being wet.

One thing I did change. Lifting the Evo from the floor to the counter at felt ok. Moving it 30m to the car and manoeuvring it was almost impossible. The weight in the back of the machine is 8kg which makes it very back heavy when carrying. It can be simply unscrewed so for Sunday ran it without the weight. No semblance of trying to tip so whilst it is belt and braces to include it I'm not sure it is needed so will continue without it. One small thing I noticed that I hadn't before was the clock on the display. There is one - but only when the machine is off! Once turned on it not there which is when I would look at it!

Overall a great performance and incredibly consistent. Uses a coarser grind which helps with the flavours. No buyers regret on this one 😀


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Stevebee I think the board they use is an older model, and you swop consistency (from use in the Vostok) for some more modern features. Steve, did you notice with the Evo shot being a lot larger in volume, that you used more water?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

@dfk41 It does use more but mine is plumbed in and supplied via a Flojet/ 25l container. When that gets low just top it up. Probably went through 35l on 2 machines which is more than when the Decent was one of them. Also supplies the pitcher rinser though so tricky to judge by how much. At home, I use just the tank so will be easier to compare


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Stevebee said:


> Evo had it's first run out at the Market this weekend, over 300 coffees just on Sunday (between 2 machines). Worked a treat and very temp stable. Shots have great body and by using the gauge to pull the shot very consistent output. Means no scales ruined by always being wet.
> 
> One thing I did change. Lifting the Evo from the floor to the counter at felt ok. Moving it 30m to the car and manoeuvring it was almost impossible. The weight in the back of the machine is 8kg which makes it very back heavy when carrying. It can be simply unscrewed so for Sunday ran it without the weight. No semblance of trying to tip so whilst it is belt and braces to include it I'm not sure it is needed so will continue without it. One small thing I noticed that I hadn't before was the clock on the display. There is one - but only when the machine is off! Once turned on it not there which is when I would look at it!
> 
> Overall a great performance and incredibly consistent. Uses a coarser grind which helps with the flavours. No buyers regret on this one 😀


 Paolo found that with some extreme and incorrect angle pulling you could get the machine to lift a little at the back and rather than take any chances at all, they purchased that shaped painted weight (surprisingly expensive). The fact of the machine flexing very slightly (springy steel frame), means a lot of energy/force gets redirected into the countertop....so it doesn't want to move. *I just hope no home users remove the weight just in case.*

I was going to post a video of another machine showing what he was trying to avoid...but perhaps best not to.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@DavecUK Go on Dave......just think how educational and informative it might be


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I was going to post a video of another machine showing what he was trying to avoid...but perhaps best not to.


 😳 I'm going to avoid extreme or incorrect angles at all costs then!


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I haven't been able to find an Australian supplier of the silicone portafilter gaskets (64mmx53mmx5.5mm) mentioned earlier.

Has anyone found a UK supplier?

If so, is anyone interested in doing a bulk-buy for a group purchase?


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> I haven't been able to find an Australian supplier of the silicone portafilter gaskets (64mmx53mmx5.5mm) mentioned earlier.
> 
> Has anyone found a UK supplier?
> 
> If so, is anyone interested in doing a bulk-buy for a group purchase?


 Hi Paolo, I am. 🙂


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

I'm interested too


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

So getting a silicone group gasket for this group is impossible in the US except the caffewerks one for la spaziale which is identical in dimensions except it's 0.8mm thicker. Would it be too thick?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Yes, you want it thinner, why? so when you lock in your naked PF it will lock a bit more, to the point it's at 6 a clock.

At the same time if you are using the stock spouted pf you might find it locks at 5-4 instead of 6 now, and hate it because if you hold the pf handle with one hand while you pull the lever down, you will find it strange to hold a 4-5 a clock pf with the left hand and pull down with the right, unless you reverse the hands.

On my machine I only use the naked pf 100% of time, and if someone comes at my place for coffee so we can taste it and pull many shots, I pull in a 350ml milk pitcher and split into smaller cups.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Paolo5 said:


> I haven't been able to find an Australian supplier of the silicone portafilter gaskets (64mmx53mmx5.5mm) mentioned earlier.


 Maybe close enough: https://www.espresso.co.nz/parts/brew-group-gasket-seal-64mm-x-52-5mm-x-5-5mm-san-marco-silicone/


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

And in the US: https://www.ebay.com/itm/174804276615?hash=item28b3259587 might be a good idea to double check the size on this one.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Thanks for the links, Pinky.

Unfortunately though, neither company ships to Australia.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Ah, sorry, I'm spoiled with EU shipping and assumed shipping from NZ to AU would be a common thing.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Here you go: https://coffeemachineparts.com.au/index.php/product/san-marco-silicone-grouphead-gasket- hopefully they have it in stock.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Paolo5 If you want me to get some for you matey and send them on to you, the pleasure would be mine


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

pinky said:


> Here you go: https://coffeemachineparts.com.au/index.php/product/san-marco-silicone-grouphead-gasket- hopefully they have it in stock.


 Many thanks, Pinky!

You are a champ!


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> @Paolo5 If you want me to get some for you matey and send them on to you, the pleasure would be mine


 Thanks, David. I really appreciate the gesture!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

HAs anyone reverted to dosing the enormous basket at around 15 gms as opposed to around 18 gms? I would like to try this as that is the doe level I always used to drink? I wonder if I might need a new basket for the smaller dose.......any suggestions?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 Not a straight answer David!

I do dose 16g on either the IMS26 or the stock double, because my wife finds the 18g shot too strong even with milk. Both pulled fine with that dosage and didn't find any difference in taste or notes. The shot lasts about 22s, while the 18g lasts 25-28s. I always cut at the 6 bar.

The 14g not only channels but was also pretty fast. 😊


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41

This should work ?

https://www.edesiaespress.com/dalla-corte-14g-double-shot-replacement-portafilter-basket-coffee-espresso/

Thx


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Yeah search that one, I have it.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01MTDTF6B


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee@Denis S

Thank you both for your suggestions. I have ordered one to try. AM I right in thinking the grind will have to be tightened up a bit to compensate as well?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 Let's know how you got on with that. With the existing baskets, for 16g, I don't tighten the grind. It's ok for us; I am neither a super taster nor aspiring to be one! 😂

With that 14g basket, I would keep the same grind size as a starter!

Thx


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Super taster I am not either. Will play with the existing tomorrow, dropping to 16 gm at breakfast and report back


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 Good luck with it mate!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 What are your findings David? 😊


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Right, just finished my breakfast cuppa! i dropped the dose to 16 gms, Java Jampit. Left the grind where it was. It took more care to tamp and I had to work a little bit to sort out a fissure. The pre infusion was nly 3 to 4 seconds (depending if you count from when the gear pump kicks in or stops.....I counted from when the pump stopped. The pour was nice. Slightly faster but when I time it next time I reckon it will be spot on where I was perhaps slightly slow before.

the taste for me, was a lot smoother......have tightened the grind up a tad so am looking forward to the next cuppa and receiving a smaller basket. I cannot describe taste beyond the drink had more flavour!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Very nice! My timer starts as soon as the pump kicks in. I typically get a drop or two in 5-6s.

BTW, I am also using the stock pressurised single basket as bottomless.

Some time, I pull a 10g shot. I do have to grind a lot finer to get a good pour and take more care in preparing the puck. 😀


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

dfk41 said:


> Right, just finished my breakfast cuppa! i dropped the dose to 16 gms, Java Jampit. Left the grind where it was. It took more care to tamp and I had to work a little bit to sort out a fissure. The pre infusion was nly 3 to 4 seconds (depending if you count from when the gear pump kicks in or stops.....I counted from when the pump stopped. The pour was nice. Slightly faster but when I time it next time I reckon it will be spot on where I was perhaps slightly slow before.
> 
> the taste for me, was a lot smoother......have tightened the grind up a tad so am looking forward to the next cuppa and receiving a smaller basket. I cannot describe taste beyond the drink had more flavour!


 There is no point to count after the pump stops.

Because the moment the pump starts to kick in and the water drips from the group you already have water in contact with the coffee so that is preinfusion too.

This is a slow down video at 25% but you get the idea:


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S I should have explained better! I know to start counting, be it pump or lever from when you press the button, drop the lever or what have you, but it is still a much asked question from newbies, when to start counting! that's a great video as well!


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all, I'm having a tamper base milled for me. Would a 54.4 mm diameter base fit the stock basket?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Using this forum's wisdom (I'm in the process of synthetising it all), a 54.4mm tamper would work and will provide a very close fit with the ACS baskets. A slightly smaller OD might be safer (say 54.3 or 54.25mm)


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

gearosthyd said:


> Hey all, I'm having a tamper base milled for me. Would a 54.4 mm diameter base fit the stock basket?


 See:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=848906&embedComment=848906&embedDo=findComment

And

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=855359&embedComment=855359&embedDo=findComment


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@MediumRoastSteamThanks for the links.
So 54.4 does seem like it will be a bit tight for the stock baskets. I'm seeing that other people were able to push 55 mm in the IMS baskets(B662TH26M). Anyone besides the aforementioned users that have bases this wide?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I don't believe everything I read on the internet 😉... the top of my stock baskets have an internal diameter of 54.8mm (and both the single and double baskets have an ID of around 54.7mm, 10mm below the lip)... A 54.9 or 55.0mm tamper will definitely not fit.

I'd add that the Torr 54.4 is known to be a tight fit for the stock baskets...

The IMS baskets are bigger (and could probably take up to a 55.0 tamper if looking for a very tight fit).


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> I don't believe everything I read on the internet 😉... the top of my stock baskets have an internal diameter of 54.8mm (and both the single and double baskets have an ID of around 54.7mm, 10mm below the lip)... A 54.9 or 55.0mm tamper will definitely not fit.
> 
> I'd add that the Torr 54.4 is known to be a tight fit for the stock baskets...
> 
> The IMS baskets are bigger (and could probably take up to a 55.0 tamper if looking for a very tight fit).


 Huh, interesting. Thanks for your input! I'm also wondering how much of a notable difference several mms will make if I decide to go a bit smaller. I would imagine that a small diameter would result in coffee at the sides not being compressed as much.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Could you draw 54.4 as opposed to 54.45? Reality check needed! If you cannot see o.o5mm with the naked eye, Doubt very much your tastebuds would either. Coffeebollocks......things that on paper would seem to make a difference, but in reality do they?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Well 0.05 mm is probably a bit extreme but perhaps 0.5 mm is detectable. Not sure. Maybe someone knows!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd but the real question is, the person that might know the answer.......are they worth listening to?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

The aluminium taper which is bundled with the Evo Leva has a diameter of 52.8mm, which is very lose. Maybe someone could do a blind taste comparison with a larger tamper and report.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> @MediumRoastSteamThanks for the links.
> So 54.4 does seem like it will be a bit tight for the stock baskets. I'm seeing that other people were able to push 55 mm in the IMS baskets(B662TH26M). Anyone besides the aforementioned users that have bases this wide?


 I have the IMS tamper which is 54.4.

http://www.imsfiltri.com/pressini/baac54-4f/

To me it seems tight on both stock and the two IMS baskets. I'm/was thinking the bravo tamper with 54.7 is the current sweet spot (?)


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> I have the IMS tamper which is 54.4.
> 
> http://www.imsfiltri.com/pressini/baac54-4f/
> 
> To me it seems tight on both stock and the two IMS baskets. I'm/was thinking the bravo tamper with 54.7 is the current sweet spot (?)


 Did you mean 54.4 a tight fit on both stock and IMS please? If correct, how would 54.7 ? Sorry, I am lost here. Hence asking.

Btw, I am still waiting for my Convex Torr tamper. Jens advised me a couple of weeks it's being customised in Germany. Hopefully, should not be long now.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

I have a custom made 54.4mm, which seemed to be a nice fit for the stock baskets, although I haven't used them much.

I also have a custom made 54.7mm which I use for the IMS baskets and is a good fit.

And I have a 54.8mm custom made, which is similarly a nice fit for the IMS baskets. You could probably go a little larger but I wouldn't, as if it gets too tight you are more likely to vacuum lift the puck as you remove it.

Hope that helps.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

I have the Torr 54.4 tamper and the IMS baskets. Compared to my old setup with 58.4 Torr tamper and VST baskets, the current setup is not a tight fit at all. Here are some pictures of the tamper in the IMS double (pictures with portafilter) and the tripple basket that came with the machine (pictures without portafilter). I tried to hold the tamper right below the basket ridge to give you an idea of the gap (look for the dark line on the tamper side to determine where the tamper ends). With my old setup, the tamper would never go down that deep in the baskets.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Had a fantastic week-end social on both days with our close friends and families at our home. Some of them are aware of the new toy in our kitchen. A good friend of mine brought a bag of coffee, which was a very nice thought indeed. I did not realise the family is going to bring some coffee. We would have defo advised them otherwise.

Any way, the bag in question was a nice ground coffee from one of the good stores. We appreciated the gesture and told the family not to open the bag as it won't work on this machine. They insisted on using the fresh bag (let's not worry about the date on the bag), while we were gently dismissing the idea.

Long story shot, they won. I pulled out the double pressurised basket, filled the basket with 20g of the French roast, prepared the puck as I would normally and cocked the lever. I kept 92/100 for one shot, steadily reducing the temp by 0.5C - 1C for the next few tamping even harder, and so on. The results were as I had expected. No sooner, I cocked the lever, the black stuff just poured like an open tap. 🤣

Obviously, neither I could drink nor the family, which brought the bag. The reaction was even funnier. Their £100 machine makes a better coffee. 😂

Obviously, the Evo had the last laugh and she had put up impressive shows over the week end. I dropped the shower screen this am. It's pretty clean though, although I gave a quick wash. The tweaked PID coffee parameters meant she was very temp stable between back to shots.

We pulled 30 shots on Sat evening and 20 on Sun evening excluding our daily coffee routine. We used the Ethiopian Worka Wuri, Kenya and Funka 21. Some drank as black Americano, espressos and a very few with milk. We were initially concerned about hand grinding challenges, but we had a lot help in the department. This wasn't a problem any more.

The cup was a stunner for all of them. They felt they never drank anything like this before. Some wondered why their machines can't. The unanimous feedback was they are neither going to like what they will drink at home nor at the coffee shops. She has already set some houses on fire, while others are looking forward to having another cuppa soon. All in all, the Evo has become an overnight sensation in our circle. 😊

Many thanks to Dave and Paolo of ACS for putting out a splendid machine. 🙏

Thanks and have a great week every one!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

A short mention about the size of tampers regarding ims baskets.

If the 55mm bplus fits both 26 and 32mm ims baskets then how can you say a 54.4 or 54.7 is a fit?

I am using a 54.95mm tamper for both ims baskets with no problem.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @gearosthyd but the real question is, the person that might know the answer.......are they worth listening to?


 Valid, point. I'm just mainly concerned since I only have one shot at re-milling my current tamper!


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> A short mention about the size of tampers regarding ims baskets.
> 
> If the 55mm bplus fits both 26 and 32mm ims baskets then how can you say a 54.4 or 54.7 is a fit?
> 
> I am using a 54.95mm tamper for both ims baskets with no problem.


 I would imagine that would be a pretty tight fit right?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Of course it's a tighter fit, or else you would get water floating at the edge of bplus.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Did you mean 54.4 a tight fit on both stock and IMS please? If correct, how would 54.7 ? Sorry, I am lost here. Hence asking.
> 
> Btw, I am still waiting for my Convex Torr tamper. Jens advised me a couple of weeks it's being customised in Germany. Hopefully, should not be long now.


 sorry for delayed reply. My 54.4 is very tight in stock baskets, and snug in the IMS baskets. I am using the deeper (32) IMS basket currently as it prevents overflow when grinding straight to the portafilter, and seems to work well (or well enough for me). So the key difference (i think) being that i am going lower into the basket and so getting a tighter fit.

re. 54.7 - this is because im considering a bravo tamper and i think that's the consensus size/choice...


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

My Tamper Odessey - and where it ended

1. Had 3 53mm tampers left over from La Spaziale - way too loose

2. Bought IMS 26M and 32M baskets - pure guesswork

3. Decided on 26M exclusively - I only dose 18g

4. Bought 58mm tamper then modified to 54,26mm - fits ACS baskets perfectly which I no longer use

5. Bought IMS 54,4mm tamper - still too loose on 26M, about 1mm rim play

6. Bought JoeFrex "Technic" dynamometric handle with 55mm base - nice and snug fit in 26M, no puck lift

This is where I am happy - JoeFrex 55mm tamper base. i lock the "dynamometric" handle down tight because I use a gauged press beyond the pressure it can deliver. The whole tamper - handle and base is <$70 and is Made In Germany.

On top of that, Joerg Rexroth (Joerg F Rex) and his daughter Isabella are very nice people!


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all, for everyone that has received their machines so far, what was the time between final payment and your *DHL/Courier email *arriving. Been waiting for >30 days now&#8230;


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> Hey all, for everyone that has received their machines so far, what was the time between final payment and your *DHL/Courier email *arriving. Been waiting for >30 days now&#8230;


 It was "a few weeks" for me. And at the time, there was no DHL strife that Paolo mentioned recently.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> Hey all, for everyone that has received their machines so far, what was the time between final payment and your *DHL/Courier email *arriving. Been waiting for >30 days now&#8230;


 I'd e-mail Paolo and let him know you have not had a tracking note from DHL or whatever courier they use....normally you get that as soon as it's left the factory.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I'd e-mail Paolo and let him know you have not had a tracking note from DHL or whatever courier they use....normally you get that as soon as it's left the factory.


 Thanks, Dave. I have sent a couple of emails over the past couple of weeks to no avail. I think the vanishing Meme you posted earlier was quite accurate&#8230;


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ah... I've another


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You have to remember this is a factory, not a retailer, with well defined customer service, sales and marketing processes set up to handle individual customers....These guys make the machines....then sell to retailers.

Selling to retailers is much easier, retailer orders 10+ machines or whatever, then they wait and they get delivered, eventually....only if Christmas is coming to they retailers get really arsey.

I think the machines are going out this week, there was some issue with the finishing of some components (knobs) to get resolved before shipping.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

SL01 said:


> My Tamper Odessey - and where it ended
> 
> 1. Had 3 53mm tampers left over from La Spaziale - way too loose
> 
> ...


 I am using IMS also, bot 26 and 32, but I am dosing 19g on the 26 since I consistently had better results (and less channelling observed on the naked portafilter).

For the 32 I am dosing 22g. and sobfar so good, although this one I use it with the double spouted portafilter and I did not "research" with it that much.

Editing: BTW using a custom Bravo 54,9mm for the IMS.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

MM, delicious.😋


Uganda mon cherry filter roast by Machhoerndl.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Anyone knows the size between the pins for the piston head removal?

If the piston is less than the shower screen and it is it means its less than 50mm. And holes for the pins are 3-4mm, so 50-6= 44 mm, is this right?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Denis S said:


> Anyone knows the size between the pins for the piston head removal?
> 
> If the piston is less than the shower screen and it is it means its less than 50mm. And holes for the pins are 3-4mm, so 50-6= 44 mm, is this right?


 @Norvin sells a tool and will have these dimensions, although the tool is very nice

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/classifieds/item/403-la-san-marco-lsm-leva-group-piston-seal-tool-acs-evo-leva/?do=embed


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> @Norvin sells a tool and will have these dimensions, although the tool is very nice
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/classifieds/item/403-la-san-marco-lsm-leva-group-piston-seal-tool-acs-evo-leva/?do=embed


 The piston is 49mm dia. Slots are 5.5mm long, just over 5mm wide and just over 4mm deep. I use 4mm pins.


----------



## Hurzman (Jul 5, 2021)

Was able to install the Evo today. Unfortunately the pressure gauge (or maybe the pump too?) doesnt work.
After I pulled the lever, there was only a short pump noise and the pressure gauge stayed at zero and showed no reaction.
When I move the lever up, the shot starts, but even then the pressure remains at 0.

Does anybody have any idea?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

When you pull the lever down, do you hear the pump noise? flush with no portafilter. You should have water coming out of the grouphead.

If not, then look at the pin behind the lever/grouphead because the little device that presses on it has a M5 or M6 screw that can get loose during shipping, and that screw wont press to engage the pump pin. That's what happened on my machine.

If not, do you have any errors displayed on the screen? low water error or something?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

@Norvin thank you for the dimensions:

Tomorrow I will try a print with abs:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:5019487

Middle hole is 1/4 socket. Will it hold? we find out tomorrow.


----------



## Hurzman (Jul 5, 2021)

Yes, water comes out normally when I flush.
But the pressure doesn't seem to build up properly.
I've also tried very fine and very coarse grinds.

With coarser grinds, the first drop comes straight away.
With finer ones only then (waiting time approx. 30 sec) when I raise the lever.

But with all variants there is only one noise from the pump only at the beginning. I haven't had the 2-3 pump noises known to me from all the videos.

Maybe the PI is set to 0 bar?

I will try again tomorrow&#8230;


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

Denis S said:


> @Norvin thank you for the dimensions:
> 
> Tomorrow I will try a print with abs:
> 
> ...


 It should be fine, the pistons aren't tight as delivered. The unknown factor is how much force will be needed after a year or two's use.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Hurzman it might be the pressure stat is set too low, try adjusting it.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Hurzman Perhaps a video would help us get to the bottom. The gear pump raises the pre-infusion pressure to 2 to 2.5 bar and will only kick in again if the pressure drops. There is no need for it to activate again during the shot unless one of the boilers requires a top up


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

@Hurzman
Here are instructions for how to adjust the pressurestat :



Remove the 4 Allen bolts which hold the top plate of the Evo Leva case to access the pressurestat


The central (big) hole might have a red cap on it which needs to be removed first. Turn the central adjuster anticlockwise to increase pressure.
















*Don't touch the small adjuster, that is the dead band and doesn't need adjustment.*


----------



## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Denis S said:


> Uganda mon cherry filter roast by Machhoerndl.


 Unless I'm misreading the photos, you seem to be placing the puck screen at the bottom of the basket rather than on top of the coffee grounds. Isn't it meant to even-out the water from the shower screen as it falls onto the puck?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

mathof said:


> Unless I'm misreading the photos, you seem to be placing the puck screen at the bottom of the basket rather than on top of the coffee grounds. Isn't it meant to even-out the water from the shower screen as it falls onto the puck?


 It's at the top only, you can see it in the pictures (second photo).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

mathof said:


> Unless I'm misreading the photos, you seem to be placing the puck screen at the bottom of the basket rather than on top of the coffee grounds. Isn't it meant to even-out the water from the shower screen as it falls onto the puck?





Denis S said:


> It's at the top only, you can see it in the pictures (second photo).


 I can see why @mathof said that. Let's not forget, the basket for the Evo (53mm) is a lot deeper than the usual 58mm basket, giving the impression when compared that the screen is at the bottom of the basket, due to the available headspace, rather than the top. 👍👍👍👍👍


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

A few days ago I got a question about headspace and why I use so small doses (18.5g) into such a big basket: 32mm.

I will just give you this picture here to understand how a lever works, and that a basket depth and headspace with a bplus means nothing:


----------



## Camby (Oct 1, 2021)

Denis S said:


> @Norvin thank you for the dimensions:
> 
> Tomorrow I will try a print with abs:
> 
> ...


 I have also been looking for another option for a piston removal tool as I'm based in Ireland and shipping Norvin's removal tool will be problematic (tax, import charges).

Some searching uncovered the following which appears to be a good match (Kawasaki 50mm swing arm castle nut socket!) - it will either be a good fit or need some slight modification to fit the piston recesses. It's a little hard to say as my Evo leva is on order. I had planned to measure before purchasing but the dimensions yesterday from Norvin would suggest it will fit the piston.

The claimed dimensions from laser tool are: External 50mm, Internal 41mm, Lugs 4mm x 5mm. Some will notice that the claimed diameter dimensions means the lugs are probably 4.5mm long rather than 5mm, assuming the 5mm dimension is length.

The socket is available on ebay, sometimes amazon and elsewhere for around 20 pounds. I plan to order one now.

https://www.lasertools.co.uk/Product/6176/Suspension-Castle-Nut-Socket-50mm-Kawasaki

or search for "Laser tool 6176" .


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Camby A cheap option would be these, which should definitely fit (perhaps you might have to file the pins very slightly, perhaps not...you get 2 so you can share with a friend.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/sourcing-map-Universal-Grinder-Adjustable/dp/B07PLB8V35/ref=sr_1_20?crid=3PF31S8U0VK3X&dchild=1&keywords=angle+grinder+wrench+spanner&qid=1634121541&qsid=262-0362802-5771135&sr=8-20&sres=B00I068K44%2CB076DJHPX4%2CB07V4D59JG%2CB08KZTQ3J8%2CB08MF87ZW9%2CB08VBS4LLF%2CB08R9F6ZTL%2CB08JGY8FMN%2CB08CHCZG61%2CB08RS4FJ27%2CB08D6VFLS2%2CB08X71B1BV%2CB08NCSSYTC%2CB07PLB8V35%2CB08GKYBRQ2%2CB095LCP77T%2CB01N7SMZMC%2CB09B6QLVQ8%2CB08M5W7XTV%2CB07PLYCFBP&srpt=WRENCH









or these, might just open enough

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Xinzistar-Adjustable-Lock-nut-Universal-Spanner10-52mm/dp/B08MF87ZW9/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=3PF31S8U0VK3X&dchild=1&keywords=angle+grinder+wrench+spanner&qid=1634121646&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUEzRFZBWENDUldLNVdRJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNjc4ODc5MTM0MDkzSjRWSkdPViZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNjYxNzc3MkNDVUdFRVM1UjUzJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfYXRmJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

View attachment 60281


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Thanks, I already printed the tool and used it to remove the piston head.

For plan B in case that did not work (but it did) I had this with me:

https://www.amazon.de/gp/product/B001ILG2YS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I removed one spring, cause in fact that's why I wanted to take the group apart. You will need a beefy 27mm wrench to unlock the nut holding the two springs. There is some force needed to unlock it. I then removed one spring, cleaned everything and greased with silicone grease food safe and put everything together.

The peak pressure with one spring is at 6.5-6.6 bar and a lot of shot time will be spent at 6 bar, with a slow drop at 4 bar and then the massive drop happens. I only pulled 2-3 shots but the dissapointing on my face was too big to continue. I did increase the temp and tried some stuff and will probably give it another go today or tomorrow, but by the looks of it one spring and low pressure sucks. The shots even if the temperature was adjusted by 2C upwards, after trying at the same temp, gave me some sour bombs that are way to acidic and taste like unripe fruit or if you want, 1 kg of sour lemon juice added over a fruit salad.

This reminded me of my times pulling 2-4 bar flat shots on Decent where the results were sour. I like acidity, a lot, since I drink light roasted coffee. But this type of sourness is an extreme thing. I did not even bother pulling some more developed beans with one spring as the results were horrible.

After having two shots, I tried to understand from what that sourness comes? is it under extraction? cause the shots did not taste under extracted, so I took out the refractometer and I got a 14.7 TDS reading for a close to 1:2 ratio shot in 26 sec.

At 27-28% ey for sure. it might be too much extraction and some acids pulled out that make the shot sour. I really dont want to find out as it's not good.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S You turned it into a Londinium! With one spring the profiles are quite poor in my opinion....but of course people using the Firoenzato group can't really see that, so are unaware, of the actual profile followed when the shot is against coffee... Coffee reacts very differently to a valve as extraction progresses.

*In the second video of an L1* you can see the valve is hardly open (much slower than espresso extraction) and yet evidence of the drop off at 4.5 ish bar is there as the needle wavers with every drop. Remembering that flow rate with coffee is higher at all times and increases as the shot progresses. Also against coffee, which flows more than his valve, *I doubt't it would have peaked much higher than 6.5 bar.*

*I would advise putting the second spring back at this is how the groups (all of them) are designed to work by the manufacturers*


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Camby A cheap option would be these, which should definitely fit (perhaps you might have to file the pins very slightly, perhaps not...you get 2 so you can share with a friend.
> 
> https://www.amazon.co.uk/sourcing-map-Universal-Grinder-Adjustable/dp/B07PLB8V35/ref=sr_1_20?crid=3PF31S8U0VK3X&dchild=1&keywords=angle+grinder+wrench+spanner&qid=1634121541&qsid=262-0362802-5771135&sr=8-20&sres=B00I068K44%2CB076DJHPX4%2CB07V4D59JG%2CB08KZTQ3J8%2CB08MF87ZW9%2CB08VBS4LLF%2CB08R9F6ZTL%2CB08JGY8FMN%2CB08CHCZG61%2CB08RS4FJ27%2CB08D6VFLS2%2CB08X71B1BV%2CB08NCSSYTC%2CB07PLB8V35%2CB08GKYBRQ2%2CB095LCP77T%2CB01N7SMZMC%2CB09B6QLVQ8%2CB08M5W7XTV%2CB07PLYCFBP&srpt=WRENCH
> 
> ...


 If the piston assembly is left in the group, the @Norvin tool is absolutely indispensable and does a great job.

However, if the piston assembly is removed from the group per video instructions from @The Systemic Kid, I found it easier and less risky to use a strap wrench to remove the same part because it cannot mar or cause burrs that could potentially damage the piston bore if the tool slipped. Here is the Made-in-UK, very capable "Boa Constrictor" strap wrench I use. It is on Amazon UK.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

My second spring is back into the machine. It was a too big difference in quality of shots to begin with. First impression was the crema was thinner, the body was less, the texture was missing. Then I bumped the temp with no luck. The sourness was dominating the shots. Let's see what is my peak pressure now with 2 springs back in. I did measure the thread screw length where everything sits, so I compress the springs the same as they were from the factory.

Some teflon tape on the threads like in Systematic Kid video, and some OKS (200C) silicone grease on the seals and we are ready to go.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think one of the main differentiators between the Evo and the other domestic lever machines, is the fact the Evo has been purposely designed to take the dual spring configuration. Apart from the Alex, I cannot think of another dual spring. The question is, what are these other machines missing out on by only being able to accept the single spring? I remember several years ago, this topic coming up in relation to Londinium, and we were told that after an extensive weekend of testing, the conclusion was that the dual spring when fitted to a Londinium destroyed the delicate light roasts used on it. That is a good answer and suggests that it definitely did not have anything to do with the extra grunt making the machine tilt.

All those who tell us how good the Londinium is with one spring are not in a position to tell how good, or bad it is with 2. You really ought to wake up, smell the coffee and listen to the advice and benefits that have been explained in having the dual spring configuration!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Quick question as a side - does anyone get a metal on metal chirp/screetch in the first inch of movement (pulling forward) of the lever? I've only just noticed, as it's not particularly bad and not present for the full swing/travel. I wondered if just me and whether I need to add some grease/lube somewhere..


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

The Salvatore Spring Lever Compact comes with two springs by default. The problem was that it was running too hot and the seals would often slip (I tried different lubricants and amount applied) and would never be able to apply the full pressure of both springs. Removing one spring and adding a restrictor in the thermosiphon flow mostly fixed the problems but at the expense of 7 bar peak pressure.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It's easy to explain:

more parts means more money to build something, if you add two springs you dont add just a spring, but extra parts, to make the chassis stiffer, and so on.

Now regarding the shot quality with 1 versus 2 springs. The higher the pressure the harder to dial in a shot specially when it comes to light roasts. This is why the 6 bar turbo paper was written to teach coffee shops that if they struggle with shots at high pressure better make them at 6 bar.

Yes it is harder to pull shots at 10-11 bar, way harder than 6 bar, but the shot quality at 10-11 bar has way more sweetness and fruit ripeness compared to 4-6 bar.

The coffee I used for this test was on purpose a uganda mon cherry really light roasted, that has notes of cherry juice, pomegranate and macaruja/passion fruit. All these things are acidic and sour.

The shots at 6-7 bar max with a drop to 4 bar, lacked sweetness, to ballance out the acidity. So the overall experience was something extremely sour. Raising the temperature or grinding finer did not help.

The same coffee pulled in the two spring configuration, even at a lower temperature by 2 C produces a more balanced, pleasant shot that doesn't make you do faces.

For me this is clear already to what direction to go. The trend of new days is to minimize the costs, the size, to everything.

A dual spring is more demanding, not only from the rigidity side but also from the user preparation, specially when it comes to filter roasts used as espresso. Since darker roasted coffee has little to no acidity, I do not think that this effect pointed out at low pressure will have any impact in the cup acidity. In the texture/mouthfeel on the other hand, probably yes.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Denis S Can I borrow your taste buds this weekend!


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

danielpugh said:


> Quick question as a side - does anyone get a metal on metal chirp/screetch in the first inch of movement (pulling forward) of the lever? I've only just noticed, as it's not particularly bad and not present for the full swing/travel. I wondered if just me and whether I need to add some grease/lube somewhere..


 Yes, I had that, along with spring rubbing/skipping sounds during extraction. I took the springs out and added grease to the parts where the springs make contact with the group and the bolt (especially the small cylinder on top that holds the inside spring in place) and it's all gone now.

Also, the little lever on the back can rub against the little nib so maybe check if it helps if you loosen that a bit.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Strega is another machine that has two springs. Yes it has other problems that can be fixed if you are going to get your hands dirty or involved. But even then you do not have the flexibility of the Evo.

I am more than happy with mine and really glad I got it. I would not buy anything else.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> Quick question as a side - does anyone get a metal on metal chirp/screetch in the first inch of movement (pulling forward) of the lever? I've only just noticed, as it's not particularly bad and not present for the full swing/travel. I wondered if just me and whether I need to add some grease/lube somewhere..


 I see you have had a good reply, also, can you make a video...might be a spring is wrong way round, check the outer spring doesn't have the flat area visible...look at @Denis S spring



Denis S said:


> It's easy to explain:
> 
> more parts means more money to build something, if you add two springs you dont add just a spring, but extra parts, to make the chassis stiffer, and so on.
> 
> ...


 There's a few things, most domestic machines would either have to be very long or they would tip up at the back with 2 springs, plus many don't have the strength in the chassis to support it.

Shot quality depends I guess on the coffee but IMO it's much easier to lower the pressure when you need to by slightly retarding the lever, a pressure gauge makes this easy to be consistent.


----------



## Hurzman (Jul 5, 2021)

Thank you for the quick reactions!

I increased the pressure for the PI.
The repeated pump noise can now be heard and pressure is built up.
However, the pressure gauge still shows zero during the shot.

Also seen here in the video:


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If the shot is pulling OK, looks like the pressure gauge is faulty? Contact Paolo at ACS - he will respond quickly.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

BilliumB said:


> Are any of you experienced users finding the need to (or benefit from) manipulating shots by retarding or adding pressure to the lever?
> 
> If so how repeatable do you find it?


 Surprisingly easy to do. You apply the lightest touch (one finger) to the lever to impede its movement during extraction. The gauge is fast reading too so if you overcompensate you can quickly correct.

As for impact in the cup? More than happy with results I get employing full spring pressure of 10 bar and steady decline to 6 bar where I cut the shot. Maybe I should experiment more but the coffee is so good am following the dictum, 'if it isn't broke, don't fix it'.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

pinky said:


> Yes, I had that, along with spring rubbing/skipping sounds during extraction. I took the springs out and added grease to the parts where the springs make contact with the group and the bolt (especially the small cylinder on top that holds the inside spring in place) and it's all gone now.
> 
> Also, the little lever on the back can rub against the little nib so maybe check if it helps if you loosen that a bit.


 no rubber/skipping sounds. Just a metal scratch as the lever moves forward for the first time. its not the little lever at the back (manually held down). I think the springs are the right way around from looking at the side. Its a minor thing, i suspect easy to fix, and not affecting shots. Ill look to take out and add grease soon (busy tomorrow, so Friday/weekend), as was loooking to check the internals etc anyway. ill record something if i get time for general information. Thanks All.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Hurzman Couple of things to try before contacting ACS...because they would have tested it before it left the factory

Remove the gauge...be careful, don't twist it by the body, you should find a small square area behind to put a spanner on. It won't be in tight at all as they use PTFE tape. Once it's out check a bit of the PTFE hasn't blocked the hole in the threaded gauge connector. If you can't see anything, put it back with PTFE and contact Paolo.

Another quick test you can do, find a rubber backflush disk, or put coffee in the portafilter and actuate the pump using the small lever at the back of the group...does water piss out of the gauge hole, if not, you have a different problem. If water does come out, put the gauge back on and it might then be working!

If you don't have any PTFE, then you won't be able to seal the gauge and won't be able to use the machine...until the gauge is back and sealed. When you put it back it doesn't need to be completely tight, there may be some slack, which you use to make sure the gauge is properly aligned.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh I think if this is what you think it is ? It never bothered me.


----------



## Hurzman (Jul 5, 2021)

@DavecUK

Thank you for your advice.
Since I obtained the Evo from a dealer, I'm waiting for feedback here first. He will get in touch with Paolo.
I hope it can then be solved by remote maintenance or something similar.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh I think if this is what you think it is ? It never bothered me.


 No it's not that. Here goes first attempt at uploaded video. Apologies for shakycam!

/monthly_2021_10/20211013_212546.mp4.91c594bb2d5306803f3729ffba8a2500.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment 20211013_212546.mp4


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh Thats a tad squeaky, email the video to Paolo, I've not heard a noise like that but he might know what it is.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

The Strega is also a dual spring machine. On my (now replaced) one, I used to get over 10 bar static pressure from it - don't remember the exact figure.....


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Pull down the lever with the machine turned off, then grease the main shaft/piston rod and then grease the sides of the metal chunks on the lever arm that will rub against the grouphead metal. Once you pull down the lever you will see what I mean.

I know someone pointed this out a few months ago, but who wants to try it first?:

https://aliexpress.com/item/1005002560205725.html


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> Pull down the lever with the machine turned off, then grease the main shaft/piston rod and then grease the sides of the metal chunks on the lever arm that will rub against the grouphead metal. Once you pull down the lever you will see what I mean.
> 
> I know someone pointed this out a few months ago, but who wants to try it first?:
> 
> https://aliexpress.com/item/1005002560205725.html


 Thanks all. This morning i could see wear marks on the side of the lever rubbing against the rear right hand side of the caliper that holds it (i.e. the bit that rotates around the large bolt). i gave the lever a sharp knock (from right hand side towards left), and it seems to have sorted it for now at least.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Again, you are working with parts that move, you need to grease them. It's a part of having a lever, the same goes for the piston seals and such. The experience after doing so it's much better.


----------



## Bradliew (Aug 26, 2021)

Hi guys,

Brad here from the Philippines. Very happy to meet you all! After 11 days of being stuck in Philippines customs, they finally released the Evo Leva today and its probably the highlight of the year ???? From arriving with some nice footprints, the wooden pallet box was super solid and everything was safe and sound inside.










The biggest reason why I got the Evo Leva is because of my Bentwood grinder. When I first got the Bentwood abroad, I tasted it on both the VA Athena and the Bosco Sorrento. Best espressos of my life. When I brought the grinder back with me to the Philippines, I just couldn't get near what I had tasted before on a big lever.

I can say that of the only 4 shots I pulled today (because it was already 6pm), I definitely taste that magic again. Immediately I'm getting deeper depth of flavor in the cup and lingering aftertaste that my previous machine just couldn't pull out.










On a technical side, I was incredibly surprised at how easy it was to pull on the lever compared to the Athena and the Bosco, is there some sort of mechanical design on the Evo Leva that assists in the amount of force needed?

And the steaming power I found was somewhere in between the overpowered Bosco and the more subtle Athena. Very impressive quality of foam and really easy to get some good texture.










Extremely excited to start pulling some straight light roast espresso tomorrow and very glad to be part of this community!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Bradliew welcome to the forum....amazing that it got all the way to the Philippines with both feet on the case.



> On a technical side, I was incredibly surprised at how easy it was to pull on the lever compared to the Athena and the Bosco, is there some sort of mechanical design on the Evo Leva that assists in the amount of force needed?


 The Evo group is an expensive group and works a little nicer than the one you tried.


----------



## Bradliew (Aug 26, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Bradliew welcome to the forum....amazing that it got all the way to the Philippines with both feet on the case.


 @DavecUK thank you so much!

Not only did it arrive intact, it also only took 3 days to arrive from Naples 😅 but then&#8230; 11 days in customs.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Has anyone received any shipping notifications in the past two weeks? My machine was supposed to ship 6 weeks ago but then the strike happened and I went on holiday so it was supposed to ship last week but I have not heard anything regarding shipping.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> Has anyone received any shipping notifications in the past two weeks? My machine was supposed to ship 6 weeks ago but then the strike happened and I went on holiday so it was supposed to ship last week but I have not heard anything regarding shipping.


 I only know what Paolo told me the other day when I asked, that a few machines are waiting for replacement knobs as the finishing from the supplier was not up to standard.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Bradliew Welcome to the forum and our exclusive Evo family! Have a great time and enjoy pulling some great shots. Please do share your experiences and videos. GL! 😊


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> I only know what Paolo told me the other day when I asked, that a few machines are waiting for replacement knobs as the finishing from the supplier was not up to standard.


 This was also the issue with me. Apparently the new shipment of knobs should be in by the end of the week so perhaps we'll see our machines shipped next week.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gus6464 Got mine last week, Tuesday and the machine is sitting at the depot to be collected tomorrow


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> @gus6464 Got mine last week, Tuesday and the machine is sitting at the depot to be collected tomorrow


 another one?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MediumRoastSteam Not for me but for a friend of mine


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

Bradliew said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Brad here from the Philippines. Very happy to meet you all! After 11 days of being stuck in Philippines customs, they finally released the Evo Leva today and its probably the highlight of the year ???? From arriving with some nice footprints, the wooden pallet box was super solid and everything was safe and sound inside.
> 
> ...


 Welcome to the forum and to the Evo Leva club.

I have exact same trolley, actually I think I took very similar picture when my machine arrived!

Enjoy!


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

More and more out in the wild - great to see!

Enjoy


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Bradliew said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> Brad here from the Philippines. Very happy to meet you all! After 11 days of being stuck in Philippines customs, they finally released the Evo Leva today and its probably the highlight of the year ???? From arriving with some nice footprints, the wooden pallet box was super solid and everything was safe and sound inside.
> 
> ...


 @Bradliew Congratulations on your Evo, and welcome to the growing list of cognoscenti from around the world! All the best and enjoy!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@SL01 You got the like for the use of the word *cognoscenti 😁*


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

@DavecUK You are guilty as charged!


----------



## Bradliew (Aug 26, 2021)

Been having some great results pulling some light roast straight espresso at @Denis S's recommended 94 boiler/88 group. 18.5g into the IMS 32 basket with 55mm B plus. Today it was a delicate light roasted Laurina Brazilian Daterra Masterpiece.










I've been noticing though as I'm dialing in, (and I have a suspicion it could be grinder specific to my taste bias with the Bentwood) that I've been really enjoying pulls that seem to be faster, something around the 18 second mark. There's a great subtlety and layered complexity of fruit acidity flavors coming through at this coarser grind pulls compared to the more traditional 30 second shot. And of course it being a lever, I barely sacrifice much body and tactile texture.

I wonder if anyone has experienced this?


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Paolo5 said:


> I haven't been able to find an Australian supplier of the silicone portafilter gaskets (64mmx53mmx5.5mm) mentioned earlier.
> 
> Has anyone found a UK supplier?
> 
> If so, is anyone interested in doing a bulk-buy for a group purchase?





rusty pie said:


> Hi Paolo, I am. 🙂


 Hey @rusty pie do you have a website link for the said portafilter gasket?

Price and delivery time for UK ?

Cheers!


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Also the circlip snapped while removing the showescreen to clean, this thread is now 143 pages long, do we have a place where we can order replacements or upgrades from the UK ? I remember seeing something a while ago someone playing with that!

Thanks!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@hysaf On recommendation, I bought some of these but have not fitted them yet

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/324352064267?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@hysaf I have pulled a lot of information from this long tread. I need to pull some more from a 10%-15% of the pages. Once I complete, Dave will review and add them to the user guide.

https://www.accu.co.uk/en/internal-circlips/73204-HIC-50-A2

I have fitted the GU10 spot-light downlight clips. Please refer David's link.


----------



## hysaf (Oct 17, 2020)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @hysaf I have pulled a lot of information from this long tread. I need to pull some more from a 10%-15% of the pages. Once I complete, Dave will review and add them to the user guide.
> 
> https://www.accu.co.uk/en/internal-circlips/73204-HIC-50-A2
> 
> I have fitted the GU10 spot-light downlight clips. Please refer David's link.


 Thank you my friend, I have ordered them along side the IMS showerscreen.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Hi there,

I have a GU10 spot-light downlight clip installed in my machine and thoroughly recommend it. It holds the shower screen in place securely and I can remove and re-install the clip without needing any tools.

Big shoutout of thanks to Dave for the suggestion and Like Medium Strong Coffee for following-up on the idea and letting us know about how well the clip works

I just installed a silicone group gasket (thanks for the link to this one, Pinky) in my Evo...and it dribbles slightly when pulling a shot.

Has anyone also had this happen? If so, did you manage to stop the dribble?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Paolo5 It's also being mentioned to the group manufacturer for modification of the group going forward to better accept these GU10 downlight holders...but care has to be taken to ensure backward compatibility with the standard method used to secure the shower screen so everything remains compatible with standard parts.


----------



## kensalman (Jul 8, 2013)

Silly question I'm sure, but how can I buy one of these machines?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Paolo5 said:


> Hi there,
> 
> I have a GU10 spot-light downlight clip installed in my machine and thoroughly recommend it. It holds the shower screen in place securely and I can remove and re-install the clip without needing any tools.
> 
> ...


 I am only using the naked portafilter, it locks at 6 a clock with this gasket.

Maybe you are using the spouted one and then it wont seal.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

The gasket has a model number made of raised characters on one side. I put the gasket with the number facing up and have no problems. Did you, by any chance, notice which direction that ended up on yours?


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I use the naked handle exclusively. I fitted the gasket with the tapered end facing up.

The handle locks at 6 o'clock with the silicone gasket. It doesn't dribble every time.

I am keeping an eye on it.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

kensalman said:


> Silly question I'm sure, but how can I buy one of these machines?


 Get in touch with ACS by sending a PM to @Paolo_Cortese on this forum.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@kensalman reply above


----------



## kensalman (Jul 8, 2013)

Many thanks both


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Paolo5 said:


> I use the naked handle exclusively. I fitted the gasket with the tapered end facing up.
> 
> The handle locks at 6 o'clock with the silicone gasket. It doesn't dribble every time.
> 
> I am keeping an eye on it.


 Take it out, deep clean the groove, make sure there is no coffee particles on the gasket or under it. The gasket should always be installed with the interior chamfer facing upwards, because that is made there so you can easily insert it on the grouphead shower plate and screen.

I have no problem with it, I even chocked the machine a bit and no drips.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

kensalman said:


> Many thanks both


 @kensalman Just so you know...you can order...but it *won't be quick*, you will mostly have to be very patient and wait a while...but it *is* worth it....so worth it.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Leva finally arrived today! SO happy to have this beauty. The first a couple of shots have been fantastic; I don't think I'll need to be going to the local cafés any more. Warning to future buyers, the box is like 60 kg, so you'll definitely need help; especially if you're in a flat. I'll plan on doing a review like others have in the coming week once I get to know it a bit better, but for now I have a couple of questions for other owners.

Is it normal that there's a slight grinding feel when pulling the lever down? It just feels the slightest bit under lubricated to me. If I do need to add a little more lube, do I just take off the clip and shower head and add lube while the leva is pulled down? Which lube is best?

For the stock basket, what dosage is everyone using? I've been using 18g so far, and it seems a little under filled.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gearosthyd Video of the sound, might be the lever is shifted to one side like someone elses was. I guess it might happen in transit...these levers are renowned for being smooth. I'm very envious of you, it's a great machine. Huge value too....if you consider the price of the alternatives (I won't say competition)


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@DavecUK Here's a link to the video of the sound: https://streamable.com/s2h2sz
I hope the sound comes through; thankfully it's not very loud. Just feels like it's grinding.

Totally agree with you on the value aspect, for what it is, the price is very, very good. I would imagine paying at least double for this on the retail market.

I'm quite blown away by the materials used, and just the raw steel as well. The plates used are nice and thick! I do like well build things that are proper solid. One thing I was worried about was the flex on the front while pulling the lever, but that is not a problem. I can't really see any flex. Plus, it doesn't feel like it's bending either. It just feels nice and solid.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gearosthyd I can hear it, no idea where it's coming from...i'll try to find out. Obviously when the test in the factory they won't hear it as it's a noisy environment compared to a kitchen


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

That is a normal behaviour for a spring lever, I am referring to the slam happening when the lever is pulled all the way down - see the video at sec 7.

The moment you pull down the lever, you compress the springs, if you let go the lever will jump back up to the initial position. Towards the bottom (last 20%) you reach a point where now the springs press on the lever arm and wants to pull it down, into the preinfusion position.

You have to assist the lever all the time, from first grab to release into brewing stage.

If you or others want to smooth a bit things up you can pull the lever down with the machine off like in your video, and grease the lever cam arms left and right, those that slide metal on metal.

Today I pulled some experimental shots using the double spouted portafilter with the ims basket 32mm. There were no leaks. I have the blue silicone gasket installed (not the red one).


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@Denis S The "slam" at 7 sec is fine and makes sense. I also don't think that sound is a problem as you have described why. I'm more concerned with the sound at 5sec into the clip. You might need headphones for it. As Dave said I could see how someone could miss it in the factory. Maybe I just need to add some more grease to the group?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Oh that sound is so off that I didn't even imagine it was made by the machine, since it's not squeaking like a metal on metal would do. That sounds more like someone pressing on old wooden floor while pulling the lever down or the machine is sitting on a wood table and it's flexing because of the pull.

Sorry then, can't help.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Ha yeah right? So I think might have something. After recocking it slowly I "felt" that the sound was coming from above the group. Perhaps the rubbing sound is coming from the section that bolts the arm to group? In this(poor) picture I think I can see some rubbing.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I just spoke to Paolo, try what Denis said first, although I don't think yours is rubbing at the top of the lever...I think you would hear the sound there if it was.

Paolo thinks the spring is twisting as it compresses (they will twist slightly) and at the ends the springs, are greased so they don't make a noise. Usually this is done at the factory that makes the group, but perhaps they didn't put any, or not enough. Grab that tube of Molykote 111, which you should have anyway and get greasing. The diagram should explain where you need to try and get some grease, sop and bottom. Simply remove the 4 nuts, withdraw the top of the group+ piston, grease away and reverse. @the systemic kid did a video showing you hot to remove the top half of the group...its very easy.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55415-new-1-group-lever-from-acs-vostok-1-group/?do=embed&comment=854600&embedComment=854600&embedDo=findComment









P.S. If the springs are not allowed to twist, they distort which affects how they operate, this then may causes them to change the way they exert pressure as they decompress. They might also touch the sides of the cylinders, as you might hear about in some machines

You can find out more here in a little lecture set. When you remove the Piston you will see the spring is machined at the sides in parts.

https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1645544


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gearosthyd *looking at that photo, yes*...so grease that side, but try and tap it over very slightly to centralise it, just in case...Bit of wood and a small tappy hammer.

*I had done a longer reply about spring tech....which isn't the problem, but I'll unhide it if it's of interest,* I just didn't want to confuse things


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @gearosthyd *looking at that photo, yes*...so grease that side, but try and tap it over very slightly to centralise it, just in case...Bit of wood and a small tappy hammer.
> 
> *I had done a longer reply about spring tech....which isn't the problem, but I'll unhide it if it's of interest,* I just didn't want to confuse things


 Ok, sounds like a good idea. I have like a generic grease i.e. non-food safe. That should be fine, right? I'll also give the wood trick a try in the morning. Hopefully that fixes it up.

I would be interested knowing more about the spring tech!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> Ok, sounds like a good idea. I have like a generic grease i.e. non-food safe. That should be fine, right? I'll also give the wood trick a try in the morning. Hopefully that fixes it up.
> 
> I would be interested knowing more about the spring tech!


 Mine had metallic scraping. At the back I could see scrape marks on the right hand side. I gave the lever a healthy whack and sound went away. I didn't use any wood as it wasn't a super big whack...


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

gearosthyd said:


> Leva finally arrived today! SO happy to have this beauty. The first a couple of shots have been fantastic; I don't think I'll need to be going to the local cafés any more. Warning to future buyers, the box is like 60 kg, so you'll definitely need help; especially if you're in a flat. I'll plan on doing a review like others have in the coming week once I get to know it a bit better, but for now I have a couple of questions for other owners.
> 
> Is it normal that there's a slight grinding feel when pulling the lever down? It just feels the slightest bit under lubricated to me. If I do need to add a little more lube, do I just take off the clip and shower head and add lube while the leva is pulled down? Which lube is best?
> 
> ...


 Congrats! Did you get tracking info from DHL before it arrived or did it just show up? The status of shipment of my machine seems to now be in limbo with no answers.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I must admit that my Leva makes significantly more 'squeaking noise' than in the above video, I can hear noises throughout most of the course of the lever. There are some rubbing marks on the side of the cams on top of the group (which I've just covered with a thin layer of Molykote), but I suspect that the springs also rub inside the group... I do need to check if the noises stay when the machine is warm though... we shall see tomorrow.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BilliumB said:


> Yes, please unhide it!
> 
> Thanks Bill


 Go back thru thread it's unhidden. Anyone using a bit of wood and a small hammer, tappy tappy not whackamole.

Molykote 111, not any old grease from the workshop.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> At the back I could see scrape marks on the right hand side


 Yeah. Same in my case except that it doesn't make that much noise.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Congrats! Did you get tracking info from DHL before it arrived or did it just show up? The status of shipment of my machine seems to now be in limbo with no answers.


 Ha, yeah, that was the funny part. I received a very ambiguous email that a shipment had been created, and then I heard nothing more. No shipment number. Then a couple of days later received a call while I was on holiday that I have a very big delivery. I think Paolo forgot to share the shipment number.

This sucks, but unfortunately you'll just have to wait it out. Every now then send Paolo an email. Turned out in my case that the wooden handles were not up to scratch, and he was waiting on the supplier. You will get your machine eventually, though.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I did a little bit of noise investigation, after performing a piston seal service per Patrick's excellent instructions (my piston was screwed pretty tight but otherwise the service went very smoothly), and have traced the noise I hear to the motion of the springs (the cam on top of the group makes no noise after adding a bit of Molykote).

The microphone makes the noise appear much louder than it is in practice, and I'm not even sure this is something to worry about (sure it would be nice to hear nothing, but some metal on metal rubbing is to be expected I presume).


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> I did a little bit of noise investigation, after performing a piston seal service per Patrick's excellent instructions (my piston was screwed pretty tight but otherwise the service went very smoothly), and have traced the noise I hear to the motion of the springs (the cam on top of the group makes no noise after adding a bit of Molykote).
> 
> The microphone makes the noise appear much louder than it is in practice, and I'm not even sure this is something to worry about (sure it would be nice to hear nothing, but some metal on metal rubbing is to be expected I presume).


 The sound of the cold springs comprising. Does it make that sound when you pull a shot?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I makes the same noise when hot, but it is barely noticeable during a shot or flushing as the pump covers this sound when cocking the lever, and the unwinding of the spring happens over 30 seconds during a shot. I'm not sure how to dismantle the springs in a safe way, and short of this, I'll continue to use my machine as is.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> I makes the same noise when hot, but it is barely noticeable during a shot or flushing as the pump covers this sound when cocking the lever, and the unwinding of the spring happens over 30 seconds during a shot. I'm not sure how to dismantle the springs in a safe way, and short of this, I'll continue to use my machine as is.


 I'm sure that Paolo will come up with something 👍🏻 Meanwhile enjoy your coffee ☕


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DW about the pump noise, spring sound, &#8230;.

Let's enjoy the










????


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

My friend from Saudi Arabia just got his machine:









he's really excited but he asked me to post this question, why aren't the boilers working?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Could it be that there is not enough water in the tank, or that the water level probe is not immerged in the tank (AL11 would suggest something along this way) ?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Thanks guys. He said all issues been resolved by emailing Paolo. Looking forward to seeing his videos on this forum.


----------



## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

The water level sensor used to float on my machine, so registered as empty when the tank was half full. I cured that by weighing it down with a stainless nut. Tell your friend to check the operation of the float switch.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MW11 My machine is quite tight against the left wall. I put felt pads on the front, and rubber ones on the back. I can move the machine to an angle and use a funnel into the tank or open the door and use a funnel


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 In case, if you are interested!

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01EJ8PWV0/ref=pe_27063361_485629781_TE_item

I grabbed this some time ago. They have a few variations.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Many ta's but I think with a long narrow spout added to the way the Evo drinks water I would spend hours each day carefully trying to fill it!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 It depends on the number of shots and steams a day we pull. We fill the tank 2-3 times a week. We make 6 doubles a day and approx 1 x 300ml steam a day. After every steam, we draw 330 ml of hot water (to minimise any risks of scaling, although it's Osmio Zero).

The only reason we went for the long spout is the struggles we have had filling without it. Opening and closing the lid; the spills, &#8230;.😊

I am thinking, if I should carve out 3-4 cm diameter of an opening on the lid!


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Godshots only!

https://streamable.com/p7lh4a

Playing with simple stuff to reduce everything to the most simple workflow for my lighter roasts.

This shot bellow is 16g into the 26mm ims basket, tap to settle the grinds (tap a lot) then put the bplus on top and press with two fingers and pull the shot. So no tamping, let the spring tamp.

Strawberries juice, rose.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Godshots only!
> 
> https://streamable.com/p7lh4a
> 
> ...


 What was your out weight? Also, what temps were you using again?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

For this shot 16g in 36 g out.

Temp is 95 brew/87 group.

Water is custom, 0 ppm then 0.035 g sodium bircabonate + 0.4 g Epsom salt per .

This is a filter roast, natural Ethiopia.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

With this 16 g dose, I did not want to let the lever hammer the puck so fast. I did however let the springs go full pressure after assisting the transition from 2 bar to 10 bar.

In the video you see something funny, the coffee starts to drip really fast and all at once, because I'm using a 16 g dose, no tamping and just a bplus on top pressed with two fingers. So the puck is not compressed it accepts water easily.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

This is a bit off topic and subjective. The main attraction of a spring lever is to have the best consistency when it comes to applying the same flow/pressure profile to a coffee puck. Manipulating the lever is like trying to play a melody by ear, sometimes it goes well sometimes it doesn't. Since that consistency is the main attraction of a spring lever over any other machine it makes sense to take advantage of it. Taste is changed by temp, by dose (grind finer or coarser) and by ratio (changing the TDS) not by doing some monkey moves with lower flow or the stuff they do/i did on a Decent.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> For this shot 16g in 36 g out.
> 
> Temp is 95 brew/87 group.
> 
> ...


 Ah, nice. I see you're floating around 95/94 for the brew boiler; has that been a good range for you for filter roasts?
Do you know what your ppm is after adding your salts? I'm sitting at around mid 40s with a Rao Perger solution.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

120 ppm. (35KH/80GH) for Bentwood

For a SSP I would go lower.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> 120 ppm. (35KH/80GH) for Bentwood
> 
> For a SSP I would go lower.


 Ah OK, currently running some Multi-purpose SSP burrs in an EK43(Titus Modded). I'll see what the effect of having a higher ppm(~80) has. I'm going to change the brew/group temperature to 94/86.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Remember when some competition users made some fake account posting stuff that the Evo flexes?






Remember when you can barely hit 6.5 bar max peak pressure for a limited time?

Shots at 6.5 bar on light nordic stuff are sour in general:


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

My friend sends his greetings from Saudi Arabia









The owner of the All Cream Vesuvius EVO Leva reports for duty! Will keep both threads updated. Grazie @Paolo_Cortese for doing an amazing job! My friend is blown away by the build quality and the inside of the machine. Well done my friend! you have a La Marzocco killer on your hands and it should be recognized by the community as the best new machine of 2021.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MW11 looks amazing


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @MW11 looks amazing


 It sure does @DavecUK! Thanks for coming up with the genius idea of using the Vesuvius chases to build the 1 group commercial lever machine for home. I doubt that my friend will sleep tonight tho 😭😂😂😂


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Denis S said:


> Remember when some competition users made some fake account posting stuff that the Evo flexes?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Those are great videos Denis. Wonder how Londinium owners who sing the praises of single spring extractions, especially on lighter roasts will react. I suspect there will have been a group meeting somewhere else as to how to diss this owners video.....!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)




----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Looks delicious!


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

hysaf said:


> Hey @rusty pie do you have a website link for the said portafilter gasket?
> 
> Price and delivery time for UK ?
> 
> Cheers!


 Sorry, I meant that I am interested in a group buy, not that I have found a UK supplier. 🙂


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

quick question, how have a lever cam scratched on the side that are located outside of UK, USA and AU. please pm me or email me. Also every customer that have this problem could send an email with a photo of the problem, thanks

Paolo


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Paolo5 said:


> Looks delicious!


 First impression comparisons between the ACS Vesuvius EVO Leva and the ECM Synchronika are in. Build quality is better than the Synchronika and looks damn good too. I'm interested in taste and body so, I asked him about that and the answer is: the crema was so thick that I couldn't see the liquid when stirring. More body and more crema than the Synchronika. Can't judge taste now but out of the two the Leva was easier to pull great shots from the start. Lagom P100 works flawlessly with the EVO Leva 😈


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

MW11 said:


> First impression comparisons between the ACS Vesuvius EVO Leva and the ECM Synchronika are in. Build quality is better than the Synchronika and looks damn good too. I'm interested in taste and body so, I asked him about that and the answer is: the crema was so thick that I couldn't see the liquid when stirring. More body and more crema than the Synchronika. Can't judge taste now but out of the two the Leva was easier to pull great shots from the start. Lagom P100 works flawlessly with the EVO Leva 😈


 Arent you the one who cancelled his order some time ago and got a Strietman?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Arent you the one who cancelled his order some time ago and got a Strietman?


 Postponed my delivery to December or January.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi All,

Strange query..... Apologies in advance for the long post - hard to avoid lots of words to explain this.

I have been trying to improve the temperature stability of the group and brew boiler by adjusting the PID settings.

The group is getting there (with 94 set point, I have a range when idling of 93.6 - 94.1), but I've been struggling to adequately reduce overshoot on the brew boiler.

Watching the brew boiler temperature decay, it does something very strange.....

With my current PID settings, when I have it set to 102C it overshoots to 103.5, then very gradually drops in 0.1C increments - all makes sense so far. But after it decays to 102.2, the next figure it displays is 101.0 - nothing in between! The time between going from 102.2 to 101.0 is about the same as the time it took to go from 102.3 to 102.2. And of course, being a degree below set point, at 101.0 it turns on the boiler power and it starts the cycle again - back up to 103.5. The decay step from 102.2 straight down to 101.0 is always the same - never anything in between when set temperature is 102C.

Now, when I set it to 101C, it behaves somewhat differently, as well as being a little more stable with overshoot to 102.2. From a peak of 102.2, it decays to 101.9, then 101.7, 101.5, 101.3, 101.0 and 100.9, whereupon the heater kicks in and it cycles again.

So, it seems it can display values between 102.2 and 101.0, just not when set to 102C.

I thought maybe it relates to the particular PID values I have in it - so I put the brew boiler values back to default. When set at 102C, it had the same missing values between 102.2 and 101.0, with overshoot to 104.7.

Given that it is clearly able to read temperatures between 102.2 and 101 when not set to 102, it would seem to be some sort of firmware quirk. But it makes it difficult to improve the stability when it drops all values between 102.2 and 101.0, and I want to set it to 102C.

Has anyone seen missing values on the brew boiler temperature as it decays, in particular when it is set to 102, or is it a quirk of my machine??


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Just a side note, before you loose your mind chasing imaginary rabbits:

I see you are using the following values 94 group/102 boiler. This immediately tells me you are using a really developed coffee (nothing bad with that). But, you wont find any taste change if you pull 1C lower or 1 C higher on such developed beans, they are forgiving and the taste wont change much even if you change the grind size a bit, the temp, or the ratio.

I have mine set at 87group/95 brew boiler, and my shots when pulled with a 2-3 min in between the shots varies for 0.3-0.4C on pid (but that is not your actual brew boiler temp).

Let me explain, a boiler is normally in a vertical position placed. They are a few cm height, like 10-20cm. The temp probe is placed in one tiny spot, normally at the top (in the lid). You can have a variation of 1-5C from the bottom to the top, with some higher temps at the top when idle and when cold water bursts in, you will have a huge drop reading on the pid, but in fact that is not the actual water that comes out of the brew boiler. So those numbers are not the right values and cannot be taken serious if you want data.

If you want data, what you can do, is to build a scace type device, pull shots and measure the actual temp of the brewing water. If in between shots you have a bigger swing than 0.5 C as a starting temp then you can start to search for problems.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

To back up my words, here is a complete test of 12 machines (some really popular ones) that are tested with a scace.

As you can see, the temp of extraction is never the same, but varies, use a translator, but the temp graphs of the shots are self explanatory:

https://kaffeemacher.ch/zweikreiser-espressomaschinen-vergleich/


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Thanks for your suggestion @Denis S.

I'll try other temperatures with time, and build a Scace type device when I feel like sacrificing a basket. The one I built for 58mm machines will be scavenged for the parts probably.

Still getting used to the Vesuvius, and I'm currently using the 92-94C group temperature as that is in the range of what I found best on my Strega with PID-controlled heated group, but with less control over brew water temperature (PID controlled boiler, but HX brew water).

The Strega is part of the reason I am chasing the improved temperature stability - I realise it probably won't make a difference, but I got used to seeing a group temperature that stayed within a few tenths of set point, and a boiler that was usually within 0.5C.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

There are as already spoken two sides of chasing the temperature, at least for me:

a. the part where you want the same starting temp for each shot, for consistency reasons, but within normal numbers. You cannot have the same 90.00C start, not even on some more precise controlled machines like the Decent. I can pull now graphs from people and show you that is not possible, there will be a variation. You can have a 3C variation just by using a cooler room temp portafilter versus a heated one.

b. the part where you want to chase a perfect temperature stability advertised by more expensive machines such as LM or other saturated grouphead machines (Dalla corte). I do not see a good reason to chase that as the best shots from my experience as with a on purpose controlled temp drop (2-3C drop).

You could take some videos of the pid values while pulling a shot and analyse those, specially looking at the group temperature to see in what direction it goes, if you want to chase the b. then you should look at the grouphead temp while pulling shots, it's more accurate and closer to the puck, than the 101-102C showing at the lid of the brew boiler.

Have a look at 8:33 here (cold portafilter, and a cold "puck" there is no puck but the air is the same as a puck at room temp): upsie only 84 C.

Then at 9:17 he pulls another "shot" with the preheated portafilter, and the "puck" heated to temp, temperture now is 86+.

So just by doing that we have a 2 C difference at the coffee puck. Let alone the problem that the brew temp is set to 93-94C but you are brewing with 84-86C.

Then later he sets the brew boiler temp to 98C to get a 88-89C brew temp. My two cents, if you want to find things out, order a cheap 5 $ basket (edesia) drill a hole, put a sensor in it and pull shots with a flow restrictor and measure the temperatures you want. Then you can draw conclusions. But based on what the pid is saying with a temp sensor at the top of the brew boiler (that is really far away from the group) I would not draw any data.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)




----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> quick question, how have a lever cam scratched on the side that are located outside of UK, USA and AU. please pm me or email me. Also every customer that have this problem could send an email with a photo of the problem, thanks
> 
> Paolo


 For those who didn't understand this...Paolo is asking for anyone who had a lever where the base is being scratched at the sides when pulled to contact him with a photo and to let him know which country they are in.

He is talking about the area shown:









@MW11 Video looks great...oh god how I miss Frankenstien!!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BilliumB said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> What types of coffee do you miss using with Frankenstein?
> 
> Cheers Bill


 Whatever I'm roasting at the time, East Timor, Daterra Full Bloom, Mustafa Abakeno Ethiopian etc.. usual,y light to medium depending on the coffee.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

BilliumB said:


> Do you feel the lever 'profile', and other aspects of the Evo Leva are getting the very best out of the beans (from light to medium) - have you tasted better on other machines you've tried or been involved in improving?


 The Evo gets an astounding result from any roast, light through to medium dark. Obviously I can't compare it to every machine out there. I do own about 14 or so dual boiler and pressure profiling machines to compare with....and have extensively used and reviewed used far more in my time.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> The Evo gets an astounding result from any roast, light through to medium dark. Obviously I can't compare it to every machine out there. I do own about 14 or so dual boiler and pressure profiling machines to compare with....and have extensively used and reviewed used far more in my time.


 I'm already an owner, but have you compared the Leva to the Decent?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

gearosthyd said:


> I'm already an owner, but have you compared the Leva to the Decent?


 @Denis S is the one you want to talk to. 😉


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gearosthyd I have access to a Decent..but I think @Denis Sis your man for that comparison.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> I have access to a Decent


 Wait&#8230; what? 🤔😳


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> For those who didn't understand this...Paolo is asking for anyone who had a lever where the base is being scratched at the sides when pulled to contact him with a photo and to let him know which country they are in.
> 
> He is talking about the area shown:
> 
> ...


 I already sent the email to Paolo last week although the scratches i have are not in the lever but in the head of the piston, at the back of the lever, on one side.

Bte no answer yet (I know people are busy in Milano).


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

I sent my photo in. Hard to see what with all the reflection.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

So I thought I'd also do a little review of the Leva. I'll try to be as objective as I can, but I must disclose that I haven't really owned an espresso machine before. I have however worked in specialty coffee cafés for 6 years, so I do know my way around commercial machines(not the insides though!).

Looks:
First off, of course I love my Leva. It looks beautiful. From the photos, you can see that I went with the black side panels. I think the paint job is superb, with it matching my EK43s perfectly paint job. As a side note I had a lucky accident in which I was too impatient to wait for the wooden accent accessories and took the black resin ones. I can definitely recommend this colour scheme(I'm calling black Betty) if you're into monochrome.

The build of the machine as other have also said in this forum is fantastic. The machine is an Effing beast. It's heavy AF, and It just feels like a commercial grade machine. My parents have owned rockets and those machines feel prosumer, whereas this machine's build feels like a Synesso, with its super thick stainless-steel base.

I also have to add, that I think the second batch are also a part of the luckier bunch regarding the new drip trays. I'm very happy that Poalo decided to laser cut the drip tray panels. It looks so much better than the older wire base drip trays.

*Performance*
This machine so far has performed super well. It's only been a week, but the steam power(@130c) is a dream to steam milk with, definitely on par with any pro machine I've worked on.

The machine's warm up time is amazing. I think the San Marco group really helps as the machine is up and running in around 15-20min. I'm super happy about that, as I've heard that levers can take up to an hour to be heated and ready to go. With this green inflation happening, saving energy is always great as well as time of course!

As for shot making, it's definitely a different experience compared to the standard machine. There is that satisfaction of "pulling" a shot that I really like in the morning. The shots so far tastes good, but I'm still yet to have that "god shot" moment. I think this is ultimately my workflow as I don't have a proper tamper yet(waiting on my new base to arrive) and my grinder(EK43s stock burrs with Titus carrier) still needing adjusting. I hope once I fine tune my workflow that I'll get those nice, beautiful shots that I've been dreaming of. All the shots though have tasted fantastic with milk. Definitely better than any café that I've been to.

I also really like the fact that the Leva comes with three different PIDs that control respectively the La San Marco group, the Brew boiler and the steam(service) boiler. I really like the granularity and room for experimentation that it gives.

Temperature stability is also great, with the PIDs being mostly stable. I do however sometimes see my brew boiler being a couple of c higher than I set it, but I'll have to look into to it to see if there's an actual problem.

*Criticism*
There are a couple of points in which I think ACS can improve on in their coming iterations.

The water tank is really annoying to fill. I'm not a fan of how the tubes are inserted in to the tank, and I'm not a fan of the way you pull the tank out. It's just a fussy ordeal. I think what would be a temperate solution would be to drill a hole for a hole in the lid of the tank and then fill the tank up via a funnel. Not sure how to fix this one, as I don't mind the lid being on the side, but I would like something that matches the level of the rest of the machine.

The pressure gauge is a great addition to the machine. I'm really happy that ACS added it to the group. I'm an engineer, so I'm always happy with more metrics! I'm nit-picking, but I think the gauge casing could be made out of higher quality material than plastic(unless this was done intentional, in which I would love to know why!).

Furthermore, I'd also mention that ACS needs a better way of communicating with customers about Delays and production issues. I also think they need a better way of conducting the purchasing experience. Either way, you will eventually receive your machine, you might just not know when&#8230; 

Lastly, the LSM group is annoying in its 54.4 mm design. While the group functions well, finding good parts for this group size is not easy compared to the 58 mm world. To get a good levelling tamper, you can only buy the bravo or somehow have a friend who's a machinist turn down a tamper base for you. Definitely a frustrating experience that I did not foresee.

*Conclusion*
Overall, really happy with my machine. It looks great, and I'm really happy with the espresso it produces. I'm still going to work on my espresso shots to get that dream shot that some are able to get. If anyone has some questions, please feel free to DM me. I'll also try to post some more videos, as I believe more is better for the visibility of the machine for new buyers.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd Torr Tampers make beautiful tampers to fit. Just contact Jens and if you buy an IMS from him as well he will machine the tamper to suit


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> So I thought I'd also do a little review of the Leva. I'll try to be as objective as I can, but I must disclose that I haven't really owned an espresso machine before. I have however worked in specialty coffee cafés for 6 years, so I do know my way around commercial machines(not the insides though!).
> 
> Looks:
> First off, of course I love my Leva. It looks beautiful. From the photos, you can see that I went with the black side panels. I think the paint job is superb, with it matching my EK43s perfectly paint job. As a side note I had a lucky accident in which I was too impatient to wait for the wooden accent accessories and took the black resin ones. I can definitely recommend this colour scheme(I'm calling black Betty) if you're into monochrome.
> ...


 I'm in the second batch - but got the old drip tray - wish I had got the laser cut drip tray - it looks good! Nitpicking though as it's a fantastic machine!


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

My old machine had a drip tray similar to the laser cut one and water often spilled over. Wire tray is 100% better.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

pinky said:


> My old machine had a drip tray similar to the laser cut one and water often spilled over. Wire tray is 100% better.


 True but you could swap in another mug or tray


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

pinky said:


> My old machine had a drip tray similar to the laser cut one and water often spilled over. Wire tray is 100% better.


 Yeah, good point. I can imagine that could be an issue. Luckily I haven't run into that yet. I would imagine that would be an issue when there isn't enough holes in the tray. I still think the aesthetics is better with the laser cut one!


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> I'm in the second batch - but got the old drip tray - wish I had got the laser cut drip tray - it looks good! Nitpicking though as it's a fantastic machine!


 Interesting, I don't know what caused the switch but I'm sure glad that it happened!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gearosthyd I thought all the gauges had metal cases, all mine do, Minima and Frankenstien??


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Interesting observations on model to model variations. Mine (S/N 025) came with wooden handles and the wiremesh drip tray (and cup warmer), which I'm expecting will hide scratches better than the laser cut design... but each Evo Leva seems to have its custom touches 😀

Mine also has some unique scratches on the cam lever and on the piston head as well (with pictures sent to Paolo), and the dual springs have their own music... but this has no impact on the shots I get.

Having had my machine for over 3 weeks now, I do like the simple daily workflow (with just a flush to clean the shower head after a series of shot) and the very straightforward weekly-or-more maintenance routine (dropping and cleaning the shower screen is very easy to do, as is regreasing the piston seal/chamber).

Definitely no buyer remorse (although I can see some people being tempted by the current deal on the regular Vesuvius if one wants repeatable custom profiles... at the expense of the flexibility and immediate feedback which the Evo Leva brings)


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Eiffel Lazyness on my part but where is the s/n label?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Mine (every machine is different) was written on a label on the wooden crate as well as inside the machine (behind the cold water tank)

Another thing which not all machines have is an ACS sticker/label on the front panel. I'm wondering if it's possible to remove it as I find it a bit 'tacky' (at least my version!)


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Interesting re. the laser cut drip tray. It does look great, I agree.

My batch 2 stainless machine came with the wire drip tray top.

Certainly tempting to change to the laser cut one - I wonder if the drip tray itself is the same?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @gearosthyd I thought all the gauges had metal cases, all mine do, Minima and Frankenstien??


 Hmm it seems like it's plastic around the main housing. Kinda has that kids toy plastic silver look. I tried to take a picture but it's not obvious (which is a good thing). Either way no biggie. Maybe it is metal 🤷


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

With the B662TH26M IMS basket, does anyone use the bravo levelling tamper(54.7 mm) with it? Is it a good fit?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Some people reported that the Bravo 54.7mm tamper fits perfectly with the 26M and 32M IMS baskets. It is also possible to order a custom sized bravo up to 54.9mm with these baskets, if you prefer a tighter fit


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> Some people reported that the Bravo 54.7mm tamper fits perfectly with the 26M and 32M IMS baskets. It is also possible to order a custom sized bravo up to 54.9mm with these baskets, if you prefer a tighter fit


 Ah, great! I wonder how consistent IMS are with their Diameters. I feel like, depending on the manufacturing tolerances, that 54.9 mm might be pushing my luck. I'm sure I wouldn't lose anything over a 0.2 mm difference.

Do you just purchase the tamper through the store? It does seem a little dated&#8230;


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah, great! I wonder how consistent IMS are with their Diameters. I feel like, depending on the manufacturing tolerances, that 54.9 mm might be pushing my luck. I'm sure I wouldn't lose anything over a 0.2 mm difference.
> 
> Do you just purchase the tamper through the store? It does seem a little dated&#8230;


 i have the IMS tamper which is 54.7 and seems to fit well. I texted Gilberto about the Bravo on instagram and he said 54.9. working towards force or bravo, but finding it hard to persuade myself for the extra cost as the IMS one is fine really..


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

@danielpughAre you sure the IMS tamper is 54.7 ? My understanding is that it's 54.4 (as the product code, BAAC54.4F also suggests) ?

There are a few posts from Evo owners indicating that the IMS tamper is a "perfect" fit with the stock Evo Leva baskets, but that it's a fairly loose fit with IMS's baskets


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> i have the IMS tamper which is 54.7 and seems to fit well. I texted Gilberto about the Bravo on instagram and he said 54.9. working towards force or bravo, but finding it hard to persuade myself for the extra cost as the IMS one is fine really..


 Well the big issue for me, is that I'm looking for a self levelling tamper. Torr tampers/IMS tampers and most other tampers on the market, even though they are built well, don't solve the issue of levelling consistently. As someone who's worked in the café will Pullmans ect I think the repeatability and consistency of self levelling tampers is worth their cost. Right now, I think Bravo is the only tamper that works with San Marco baskets. I think there's definitely a market there for levelling tampers! Don't know why this isn't the industry default.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

JoeFrex/Concept-Art has a 'click' tamper which some may see as an alternative to the Bravo model.

The 55mm flat M8 stainless tamper base (SKU 1385727) is reported to work really well with IMS baskets (it is too large for the standard baskets) and can be combined with a "Technic" dynamometric handle. The whole tamper - handle and base is <$70 and is Made in Germany. It is available from lfspareparts (its distributor - https://www.lfspareparts724.com/en/), or from your favourite reseller


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Eiffel said:


> @danielpughAre you sure the IMS tamper is 54.7 ? My understanding is that it's 54.4 (as the product code, BAAC54.4F also suggests) ?
> 
> There are a few posts from Evo owners indicating that the IMS tamper is a "perfect" fit with the stock Evo Leva baskets, but that it's a fairly loose fit with IMS's baskets


 sorry you are right, thats me. Seems to fit well (can feel it scraping the sides) in both the IMS baskets im using. Well enough for a few weeks till payday etc.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> JoeFrex/Concept-Art has a 'click' tamper which some may see as an alternative to the Bravo model.
> 
> The 55mm flat M8 stainless tamper base (SKU 1385727) is reported to work really well with IMS baskets (it is too large for the standard baskets) and can be combined with a "Technic" dynamometric handle. The whole tamper - handle and base is <$70 and is Made in Germany. It is available from lfspareparts (its distributor - https://www.lfspareparts724.com/en/), or from your favourite reseller


 Nice, found the base. I have the decent levelling tamper, so I think that base will fit. One issue is that this company that you linked seems to only sell to companies...


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> ...
> 
> The water tank is really annoying to fill. I'm not a fan of how the tubes are inserted in to the tank, and I'm not a fan of the way you pull the tank out. It's just a fussy ordeal. I think what would be a temperate solution would be to drill a hole for a hole in the lid of the tank and then fill the tank up via a funnel. Not sure how to fix this one, as I don't mind the lid being on the side, but I would like something that matches the level of the rest of the machine.
> 
> ...


 @gearosthyd Congratulations! So happy to see another beautiful variation of the Evo! The black sides really look nice, especially in the sunlight. Well done! I am sure you will enjoy the machine as much as the coffee it makes because it is a real sleeper of an accomplishment.

To answer a couple of your gripes:

A strong suit of the Evo is that it is filled from the side. But even then, it takes an acrobat versed in water skills to do so. I simply do not trust myself before any espresso is consumed in the morning - and in the dark. Then I had to decide what water system to use to avoid the issue of lime build-up as we have pretty hard water here.

This is the one here.

IIRC, you are in the US, am I right? If so, you can get a superb RO from Amazon for <$500 to give you fantastic water, and it comes with a faucet for the counter. This faucet happens to be perfect to reach through the opened side door to fill the tank so I did not install it on the counter but instead, attached it at the end of a long coil of JG hose. The whole affair resides underneath the sink and hooks onto the Y for the RO return plumbed into the garbage disposal drain. The Y is an option of the RO water system.

Here is the Y.

Works really well for me.

As for the tamper, I posted where I finally landed earlier in the thread, and it is the 55mm base with a JoeFrex handle. With 18g in the 26M basket, it JUST scrapes the sides but I am confident it is pressing down as far as I need it to. The quality of the base and tamper is simply superb. And with JoeFrex, 55mm means 55mm, not like the normal Amazon fare that says one thing but measures to be something else.

One other point - with the JoeFrex 55mm base and 18g in the 26M, the top of the base is actually level with the rim of the 26M. I run my fingers around it to get it as flat as I can and this has completely eliminated all sprays. It would be nice to be even more precise but it's diminishing returns at that point.

One thing I would do differently if I were to get a JoeFrex today would be to get the base with the rubber ring around it - they come in 2 ways. The ring would be very helpful to give RDT a little help on the funnel with it and save me haivng to get a Taylor reflex hammer. JoeFrex did think of everything and I am surprised it is not more popular.

Once again, congratulations - you have a beautiful machine and welcome to the "club"


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

SL01 said:


> IIRC, you are in the US, am I right?


 Ah, I'm not, I'm based in the EU. I have thought about getting one of these RO systems. I do like mixing my own water, though&#8230;

I think the side tank isn't a problem. It does limit users in where they can place the machine, as it gives the machine a "handeness". Either way, it's not a problem for me. I think the issue for me is just the angle and how the tank comes outs. Perhaps if it was on a guiding rail or something like that. I did think of a cheap, easy solution, though. I thought what I could do is just drill a hole through the plastic lid wide enough for one of my funnels. Then I don't have to take the tank out and just fill it nicely.



SL01 said:


> One other point - with the JoeFrex 55mm base and 18g in the 26M, the top of the base is actually level with the rim of the 26M. I run my fingers around it to get it as flat as I can and this has completely eliminated all sprays. It would be nice to be even more precise but it's diminishing returns at that point.


 Ah, so you think that the 55 mm should fit with most IMS B662TH26M? I'm tempted to buy the plain base and then just attach it to my decent tamper, as that takes a M8 screw. I wonder what the total height of the bases are. Do you know? I wonder if he takes custom requests.



SL01 said:


> Once again, congratulations - you have a beautiful machine and welcome to the "club"


 Thank you! I'm so happy with the way it turned out. The all black looks really sleek IMO.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah, so you think that the 55 mm should fit with most IMS B662TH26M? I'm tempted to buy the plain base and then just attach it to my decent tamper, as that takes a M8 screw. I wonder what the total height of the bases are. Do you know? I wonder if he takes custom requests.


 The JoeFrex 55mm base fits nearly 20mm into my 26M basket. I use it everyday and tamp to 85 lbs with a gauged press. I had doubts at first and wondered if I have to go smaller but it does fit and works very well.

The base is a trapezoid on top of a round disk. The height of the disk, to the bottom of the trapezoid, is 8,5mm and to the top of the trapezoid where it meets the handle is 13,0 total, according to my calipers.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

SL01 said:


> The JoeFrex 55mm base fits nearly 20mm into my 26M basket. I use it everyday and tamp to 85 lbs with a gauged press. I had doubts at first and wondered if I have to go smaller but it does fit and works very well.
> 
> The base is a trapezoid on top of a round disk. The height of the disk, to the bottom of the trapezoid, is 8,5mm and to the top of the trapezoid where it meets the handle is 13,0 total, according to my calipers.


 How much coffee are you using? 2cm sounds a little shallow. Thanks for the measurements! I'm wondering though if the height of the base is 13mm and one can only tamp by 20mm then that leaves rough 7mm of tamping depth. I currently don't have an IMS basket, so I'm not sure what 18g of coffee looks like in the basket.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gearosthyd said:


> How much coffee are you using? 2cm sounds a little shallow. Thanks for the measurements! I'm wondering though if the height of the base is 13mm and one can only tamp by 20mm then that leaves rough 7mm of tamping depth. I currently don't have an IMS basket, so I'm not sure what 18g of coffee looks like in the basket.


 I dose 18g ±1g. The total height of the base is 13mm. The bottom part which looks like a disk is the 8,5mm part. The little "hill" on top is the rest that makes up the 13mm.

After I dose 18g into the 26M, *BEFORE *tamping, the top of JosFrex 55mm base where it starts to narrow towards the handle, is almost flush or even with the top of the basket rim. After I tamp at 85 lbs, it is of course much lower, approx. 15mm inside the 26M. I keep the pressure on the base using the "wings" at the bottom of the JoeFrex "Technik" handle, then load the tamped portafilter onto the grouphead.

Hope that's clearer now!

I was going to take pictures but then realized my 18g and your 18g may be wildly different due to grind size.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Will the joe frex 55mm base will work if you are using the 32mm IMS basket and dosing ~18g? It's the only basket I could get in the US.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> Will the joe frex 55mm base will work if you are using the 32mm IMS basket and dosing ~18g? It's the only basket I could get in the US.


 Good question, as it goes lower in the basket. This works well for a grinder that heaps the grinds high. From what people have said I think the answer is yes. [Edit: wrong - see next post!]


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

danielpugh said:


> Good question, as it goes lower in the basket. This works well for a grinder that heaps the grinds high. From what people have said I think the answer is yes.


 Totally forgot I own calipers so just did a quick measurement and on the 32mm IMS basket at halfway down its ~54.14mm so the 55m base won't work. Looks like 54mm joe frex base it is.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

FYI Custom tamper bases for the bravo tamper cost you 20$ each. Bravo 55mm tamper fits the 32M IMS basket like a glove.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

MW11 said:


> FYI Custom tamper bases for the bravo tamper cost you 20$ each. Bravo 55mm tamper fits the 32M IMS basket like a glove.


 Yeah the top of the basket. Any dose that's not filling up the basket isn't going to work.


----------



## msmk0 (May 15, 2018)

I've just updated the EVO Leva with the ultimate Mod so now I am going to have near-god coffee experiences.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I wouldn't expect any miracles though 😇... just consistent excellence!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

msmk0 said:


> ultimate Mod so now I am going to have near-god coffee experiences.










????


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Will the joe frex 55mm base will work if you are using the 32mm IMS basket and dosing ~18g? It's the only basket I could get in the US.


 @gus6464 My 26M landed in the US from Scotland in less than a week from these good folks via Fedex. Customs clearance was no hassle at all since they seem to sell worldwide and have "done it before". They have them in stock and ship same day:

IMS B662TH26M

Good luck!


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Oh my.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gus6464


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all,
Today I just received a modded tamper base that fits the *stock baskets *perfectly. This allows me to user my Decent levelling tamper again, which is great, but I'm having a huge issue though that I thought I wouldn't have. Namely, I'm getting massive channels all around the edge of my puck that results in coffee being splattered everywhere during the shot.

I'm a little baffled to be honest, as this was actually never a problem with the stock tamper that came with the machine! I'm currently using WDT to prep my puck and then just tamping directly after it. I would've thought this process would have eliminated all channels, since the puck density should hypothetically be homogenous. No idea why I'm getting the opposite result&#8230; Does anyone have experience with this issue?

I keep forgetting to take a picture of the puck afterward&#8230; I'll try to upload one later. But essentially, the puck just has holes all throughout the perimeter of the puck.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@gearosthyd To a simpleton like me, that suggests uneven tamp pressure. Swop bases and make a few shots with your old base and see what happens (with photos of both!)


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> @gearosthyd To a simpleton like me, that suggests uneven tamp pressure. Swop bases and make a few shots with your old base and see what happens (with photos of both!)


 Hmm that would be super strange, since the base of the tamper and the walls of basket are all orthogonal to each other. I can definitely say the old stock tamper I used this morning was definitely better. Not channeling there. Super weird that this new tamper is producing channeling. Maybe I'm also doing my WDT incorrectly. Will upload photos after lunch!


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Chances are your new base is too large and is not compressing the pluck enough. When you press all the way down, try and rotate the tamper, if it's difficult then it's rubbing on the side of the basket.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

pinky said:


> Chances are your new base is too large and is not compressing the pluck enough. When you press all the way down, try and rotate the tamper, if it's difficult then it's rubbing on the side of the basket.


 Good idea, just tried it and didn't have an issue turning the base. This was without coffee though which also means that I could extend the tampers depth further than had there been coffee in the basket.

Mayby WDT technique is off?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

There have been so many discussions on tamper size for the IMS baskets. Our Torr got delivered a couple of days ago. It is a very good fit for the stock and IMS baskets - both 26 and 32.

On the 26, using the Torr Tamper, we have down-sized the dosage to 16g as we find both 17g and 18g as overfills. The dosage is 16g for my wife.

On the 32 or the stock, we fill 18g and very rarely 19g - 20g using Torr. PFA the image of tamping with Torr (as soon as it arrived) on the IMS 32 after a coupe of gentle taps on the sides and one tap on the tamping mat.

There are some bits on the edges; to me, this is absolutely fine and a massive simplification of the workflow. Earlier, with the cheap 53mm tamper, we had to make infinite adjustments as a part of the tamping process. Now, we do a quick WDT, one tap and tamp just once.

In summary, we are happy with the Torr tamper and do not plan to buy any of the 54.7, 54.9 and 55 mm tampers.

Agree with David re-uneven tamping, which showed up when a shot was pulled on IMS32 after using the Torr tamper for the first time. We are still experimenting the correct way tamping using the Torr.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> There have been so many discussions on tamper size for the IMS baskets. Our Torr got delivered a couple of days ago. It is a very good fit for the stock and IMS baskets - both 26 and 32.
> 
> On the 26, using the Torr Tamper, we have down-sized the dosage to 16g as we find both 17g and 18g as overfills. The dosage is 16g for my wife.
> 
> ...


 Just out of interest - what size is the Tor? Jens was saying 55, but reading above implies smaller..


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

We ordered 54.4 mm. Unfortunately, our calliper is broken. So, can't measure it, I'm afraid. Thx


----------



## OneMoreEspresso (Oct 15, 2021)

Just a thought that might not have been suggested for the reason. I've heard about tampers that fit very snug to the basket walls can cause suction if the tamper is removed to fast. If this is happening it could disturb the puck bed.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> We ordered 54.4 mm. Unfortunately, our calliper is broken. So, can't measure it, I'm afraid. Thx Sundar


 Cool, thanks - makes sense as my IMS is 54.4, and seems to hit the spot in all baskets. Not had any channelling issues apart from a single gusher a couple of weeks ago. Long term a bravo just out of curiousity - probably ask if he can do a few bases.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh I have emailed Jens re-if he has custom made sizes to fit IMS 26 and 32.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh I have emailed Jens re-if he has custom made sizes to fit IMS 26 and 32.


 I was ready for a torr, but the IMS is really good quality, and I've never had a leveller before, so think that curiosity will get the better of me first...


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

@gearosthyd, my suspicion would be that the tight fitting tamper is vacuuming up the puck as you remove it.

Try removing it really slowly and carefully after tamping, and see if that helps.

It is the reason I don't try to get really close fitting tampers - unless you are really careful removing the tamper, the tight fitting one undoes any advantage it might have by lifting the puck on removal and breaking the seal around the edge of the puck.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> never had a leveller before


 Assume, you might be getting this! 😊


----------



## Naked (Oct 30, 2021)

Hello,

I am a new member in this forum from Croatia. Have no equipment yet and find ACS Evo leva and Vostok two group wery interesting to me. As a guest I read all 151 pages of this topic, and it is very interestting and helpfull. Have a question for Evo or Vostok owners. How many mililitres of coffee You get when pull double shot in each cup (and what is your the weight of coffee beans for double shot) when you stop extraction on 6 bar?

Another question is did anyone make a coffee with Evo leva or Vostok and grind coffee with a Mahlkonig K30 Vario grinder? I look for Your opinion for that grinder with Evo leva. Will it be a good combination? 
Thanks in advance.

Excuse for my bad English.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Naked said:


> How many mililitres of coffee You get when pull double shot in each cup (and what is your the weight of coffee beans for double shot) when you stop extraction on 6 bar?


 Hello! Welcome to the forum.

18g of coffee consistently yields 43g-45g at 6 bar.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Elephantoplasty said:


> @gearosthyd, my suspicion would be that the tight fitting tamper is vacuuming up the puck as you remove it.
> 
> Try removing it really slowly and carefully after tamping, and see if that helps.
> 
> It is the reason I don't try to get really close fitting tampers - unless you are really careful removing the tamper, the tight fitting one undoes any advantage it might have by lifting the puck on removal and breaking the seal around the edge of the puck.


 Ah thanks, I removed the auto level guide thingy and realised that fit is super tight so perhaps you're right. I was able to without the guide tamper a little deeper. This actually helped quite a bit but I realised as you said one has to take care in removing it gently as it's a tight fit. I might quite on working on this theory of yours.

Here's a picture thought of the most recent puck. You can still see on the sides some channeling but it's not as worse as before. There were some serious moon craters going on.


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Elephantoplasty said:


> @gearosthyd, my suspicion would be that the tight fitting tamper is vacuuming up the puck as you remove it.
> 
> Try removing it really slowly and carefully after tamping, and see if that helps.
> 
> It is the reason I don't try to get really close fitting tampers - unless you are really careful removing the tamper, the tight fitting one undoes any advantage it might have by lifting the puck on removal and breaking the seal around the edge of the puck.


 @Elephantoplasty @gearosthyd

Thought I should chime in since i have now got a few months under my belt with a 55mm JoeFrex tamper base.

Yes, it is a mildly snug fit and the side of the tamper base does touch the inside wall of the 26M, but in all the tamping over the past months, not once did the tamped puck lift. I was afraid it would but it never did. I do tamp at 85# so perhaps that explains the reason why it does not lift.

One other observation is that if I hold the tamp for 15 second once I reached my tamp pressure, it does affect flow - it takes longer to get 35g into the cup out of the 18g dose.

Hope this helps.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Has anyone tried one of this on the baskets - IMS 26/32 and stock ? Would it fit ? Not sure if this is 55 mm or 51/55 by colour choice.

https://m.aliexpress.com/i/1005003221380500.html?gatewayAdapt=Pc2Msite

Edit: Bravo's is 54.7mm.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

How many Evo users turn their machine off at the green master switch at the end of a coffee day?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Paolo5 Never!

Only mains here! She doesn't run the whole day as well. I bring her up 3 or max 4 times a day.

1) She comes up at 6:40, and goes off at 7:45 in the morning.

2) Once at noon or the afternoon

3) Finally in the evening.

4) It's rare I desire a cup of coffee in the night unless it's a decaf time.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Paolo5 said:


> How many Evo users turn their machine off at the green master switch at the end of a coffee day?


 I use the built in timer, which works well. Long press to power down confuses the family a bit, but otherwise works well.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Paolo5 said:


> How many Evo users turn their machine off at the green master switch at the end of a coffee day?


 Only use the master switch if I am going away for a few days.

@DavecUK Digital display isn't compromised by leaving it on indefinitely?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

So far, I'm using the built-in timer for my morning coffee, and switch the machine on manually for my post lunch coffee. Long term. I'll be using a smart switch to preserve the display and be able to remotely control the machine. The green button has only been used once, to turn the machine on on day one.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Digital display isn't compromised by leaving it on indefinitely?


 You meant, not enabling the digital on/off feature ? Thx


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Eiffel said:


> So far, I'm using the built-in timer for my morning coffee, and switch the machine on manually for my post lunch coffee. Long term. I'll be using a smart switch to preserve the display and be able to remotely control the machine. The green button has only been used once, to turn the machine on on day one.


 Exactly how I recommend things should be done...leave it plugged in, green switch in the on position and use a smart switch. There is only one downside...the RTC (real time clock) battery on the board will run down faster...as its only job is to keep the clock running, and you're not using the timer anyway...it doesn't matter.

P.S, I think it will then always come on..on and not on but in standby. Not 100% sure as the RTC may keep the on state by virtue of knowing it should be on, or on standby based on the internal timer. I always seem to remember if no timers are set, it comes on, on.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> There is only one downside...the RTC (real time clock) battery on the board will run down faster.


 If the machine is powered on / off externally through the mains or a smart switch, can the built-in timer and clock be disabled? The built-in functionality is a nice add-on but hardly used.

In our case, we always use the mains power, the built-in feature is not used at all. Yes, I am planning to get a smart plug for convenience.

Thx


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Just don't set any internal on/off timers and then forget about the RTC. It's a 10 year life for the battery, because the RTC chip uses so little power and it's a CR2023 cell powering it.

when the battery fails, if you do want to replace it...simply buy a holder with leads for a few pounds. Cut off the old soldered in battery at the posts...solder the leads onto the old posts...get the polarity right... when you want to change the battery again in 10 years, it's even easier.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Just don't set any internal on/off timers and then forget about the RTC. It's a 10 year life for the battery, because the RTC chip uses so little power and it's a CR2023 cell powering it.


 Sure. I have not even set any timer. I didn't really see the need for it, tbh. But, yes, the battery does decay and eventually would require a replacement.

10 years is a long term. I'm not a fan of soldering or otherwise. The worst case, only the built-in timer won't work, I assume 😀

One noob question though, why would the battery needs to be soldered? Normally, it will click-into place, especially the holder like your image, right ? Thx


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's spot welded in, like many tabs on lithium batteries. So i would be inclined to cut it off and just touch solder a couple of wires.









You don't really need a complex soldering setup...you can use something like this...I bought one from Lidl for about £9...even came with some lead free solder..although I use leaded. It's cordless and rechargeable...It's like a pen, you press the button for a few seconds and start soldering. Handy thing to have around...I've repaired many a little thing with it.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK Thank you. Some thing to remember, in the long run. I will take screen shots of your post and add them to my notes for an easy future reference!


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Unless some error pops up on the screen, there is no point replacing the battery if you don't use the timer.

I use a smart switch and only turn on the machine when I want coffee.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I am new to the world of smart switches. Is there any particular one that is recommended?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/62033-automatic-plug-timers?do=embed


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I don't like the idea of having the lights in the touchsreen 'on' 24/7, so I have been flipping the green master switch off at the end of the day. I would leave the master switch in the illuminated/on position if the touchscreen lights didn't stay on (even when the heaters aren't activated).

What advantage would the smart switch give me? Is it just the ability to turn the machine on without having to flip the switch...and not have to open the side panel latch in order to do so...and from another room?

Or is there more to it than that?

*A question for Paolo Cortese and DavecUK-*

Is there a plan with updated firmware to be able to touch the 'off' button on the touchscreen to make the screen go blank (like in the Vesuvius e-61)?


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

@Paolo5, timer switches solve all that - just program in your on and off times, and you never need to touch the green switch. Set it to come one so that it is up to temperature in the morning when you want a coffee, and to turn off at whatever time is suitable.

The days of switches that have programming on them are long gone - as @DavecUK noted, there are lots of ones controllable over Wifi now.

I suggest you do some research on the apps and find one that provides you with the timer programming options you want.

In Oz, something like the TP-Link HS100 is readily available and works well in my hands with the Kasa app.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Day is finally here. Crate arrived a little beat up but the machine inside was pristine. Paolo and ACS do a fantastic job packing the machine. After flushing the boilers a couple of times I pulled a shot to check my grind size. Using the 32mm IMS basket. Took one shot to dial it down. Using a light roast Ethiopian and set the brew boiler to 100C and group to 92C. The brew boiler is doing that thing that seems to be happening to most people where it overshoots by 1-1.5C so going to adjust the PID accordingly.

Set the steam boiler to 127C and the steaming power is quite insane. My 4oz of milk for my flat white was done steaming while preinfusion was still happening.

As for the shots themselves without any fuss whatsoever I was pulling some of the smoothest shots I have ever done almost right away. The one thing that blew me away though is shot consistency. Once I got my grind dialed I pulled two back to back shots and can safely say they came out identical. That feat was impossible with my old e61 machine.

The machine has blown me away in the first 2 hours of ownership so I can't even imagine what it's going to be like once I get used to it.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Thanks for the chat. I remembered got some 16A/3900W smart plug somewhere stored, took it plugged the Leva and now it's connected to Alexa. So can turn on remote before arriving home, or can just say in the morning, Alexa turn on Leva and that's it.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Denis S said:


> , or can just say in the morning, Alexa turn on Leva and that's it.


 You then wonder why all of a sudden Amazon is trying to sell you coffee beans or any coffee related 😉

Serious question: Given the heat up time is 15 minutes due to the group heating independently, isn't the smart plug redundant, in a way? For me, with the Elizabeth, with a similar heat up time, I just turn the machine on and go and do something else for 15 minutes (read emails, check the news, etc). I just feel more comfortable not having a coffee machine connected to a smart plug. When I had it, back in the day, there were days I used to wonder the usual "what-ifs": What if I left the water tap open, or the steam tap open, or the E61 lever engaged.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@MediumRoastSteam It's a convenience, that's it.

1: I do not have to get to the kitchen in the morning to switch it on 15-20 mins before.

2: We can switch the machine on 20 mins before you are home.

3: What-ifs can be addressed straightaway, assuming wifi is not messed up 😊

Having written these, I still don't have the machine connected to a smart plug. Heading home on a day out or after shopping with the family, I miss this convenience.

Amazon is already doing it, don't they? . 😊


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I have ordered one of the cheaper equivalents of bplus.

The only reason is I can no longer dose 18g on the IMS 26, with my Torr convex tamper. The max I can dose on the 26 is 16.5g; even 16.6g would leave an impression as the puck expands vertically.

I miss my coffee with my regular 18g dosage. This is currently not possible on the 32 without channelling, puck rupture, moon craters, etc. So, hopefully, the puck screen would solve my challenge!


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

I use my Evo in a similar way to how MediumRoastSteam uses his.

The brief warm up time gives me a chance to do one or two other things. I have never felt that my machine has kept me waiting..😁

The reason why I initially asked about turning the green master switch off is that I am mainly concerned about the longevity of the coloured touchscreen "switches"....and turning them off when they aren't being used would have to be a good practice.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Columbian Sugarcane decaf from Rave today!

Did grind a little finer than normal. The temps were 92C on the group and 100C on the boiler. The Evo never disappoints. 16.4g:47g:35s.

Couldn't resist just after a week than the usual 2. Rave advised 7-10 days from the roast date.

Chocolate and fruity notes for me!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Thaty's quite a dark bean, but I guess as decaff, it needs it, to give it a little more oomph and taste.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK I wasn't planning on opening it! The excitement got the better off me. 😀

I had just frozen an unopened light roast bag just after a week+ (8-9 days to be precise) of rest.

Drew a tiny portion of the Dark roast Sugarcane Decaf and frozen the rest.

I assume it's ok to leave the bags in the freezer and draw leisurely unless you recommend resting them in a cupboard for a week more at least.

Thanks!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee I wouldn't worry about resting them too long...you enjoy


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Ok so my EVO is overshooting the brew boiler by as much as 4C. Set to 99C when the heater kicks in it was going up to 103C before shutting off.

Changed the B setting on the PID to 50 and now it overshoots at most .5C but on avg more like .2C.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

@gus6464, while at it you may want to set Kp to 0.8, Ki to 0.03 and Kd to 12 (which works well for me).

@DavecUK also recommended the following changes to the other PID controllers



Group PID: Kp 2.0, Ki 0.04, Kd = 5.0, B 5


Steam boiler: Kp 10.0, Ki 0.00, Kd = 5.0, B 5


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Eiffel said:


> @gus6464, while at it you may want to set Kp to 0.8, Ki to 0.03 and Kd to 12 (which works well for me).
> 
> @DavecUK also recommended the following changes to the other PID controllers
> 
> ...


 K thanks, I will make those changes.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

I have noticed my coffee boiler being a little wacky in temperature sometimes. So just to reiterate what you posted @Eiffel



Coffee PID:

*Kp*: 0.8


*Ki*: 0.03


*Kd*: 12


*B: *5



Group PID: 

*Kp*: 2.0


*Ki:* 0.04


*Kd*: 5.0


*B*: 5



Steam boiler: 

*Kp*: 10.0


*Ki*: 0.00


*Kd:* 5.0,


*B*: 5



@DavecUK are those values correct? Is there any harm that could be done to the machine in manipulating these values?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gearosthyd they won't damage the machine. Just keep an eye on the stability and temps.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Shouldn't the coffee B be 50 so it doesn't overshoot?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@gus6464 Our brew parameters are at Kp 0.7, Ki 0.04, Kd = 12, B 50 (Initial overshoot is still 1.5C and stable range is 0.5C either way). I have left it at that level.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @gus6464 Our brew parameters are at Kp 0.7, Ki 0.04, Kd = 12, B 50 (Initial overshoot is still 1.5C and stable range is 0.5C either way). I have left it at that level.


 Brew = coffee PID right? Sorry I'm a bit stupid when it comes to naming.

Coffee PID:



*Kp*: 0.7


*Ki*: 0.04


*Kd*: 12


*B: *50


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

gearosthyd said:


> Brew = coffee PID right? Sorry I'm a bit stupid when it comes to naming.


 Yes


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

I do think the ambient temperature would make a difference.

Our kitchen is large, it's has got 3 windows - 2 large and 1 standard sizes next to the coffee machine.

This is the reason, I think, I see an overshoot, despite a plenty of tweaks to get to those parameters. A lot of Evo owners do not seem to have this issue at the default value.

It shouldn't otherwise require such tweaks, IMO, otherwise. I have left it at these levels after playing with it for quite some time.

Dave may clarify if my assumption is correct.

I would recommend looking at the range after 30 mins or so. Please ignore the initial warm up, soon after a shot is pulled, and after flushing.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)




----------



## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

Nice shot, how did it taste?

You can try grinding bit coarser maybe, to shorten the preinfussion. The last few seconds of the extraction, the coffee looks bit watery, maybe just lightning, so you can also taste smaller yield.

Us vs them: coffee professionals


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I'm still in love with mine:

https://streamable.com/do61a8


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Denis S That's a courageous shot, for me at least!

Light - dark combo as layers! Looks more like a 1:2 dosage.

Could you explain the rationale and/or your thought process around this please ?

What did you expect the output to taste like versus the actual cup - notes, after taste, etc?

What was the temperature profile for this combo? I think you typically choose 86/94 for light and 92/100 for dark. Is this more like 90/98?

Thanks! 😊


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I'm still in love with mine:
> 
> https://streamable.com/do61a8
> 
> ...


 @Denis S Bravo! "The Evo made me do it."


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I do think the ambient temperature would make a difference.
> 
> Our kitchen is large, it's has got 3 windows - 2 large and 1 standard sizes next to the coffee machine.
> 
> ...


 @Like Medium Strong CoffeeIf you have a large, triple-aspect kitchen, you can afford a blanket for your Evo to keep it warm. 🙂


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@SL01 Blanket ? Sorry, I lost you mate. It does remind me of wrapping the Clever when I brew, which I still, for 30 mins! 😊

My family already thinks something is either seriously wrong with me or brainwashed by folks or possessed by spirits!

A blanket, in what ever form it might be, will be the last straw potentially risking a call to a psy*** 😂


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

> 1 hour ago, pj.walczak said:
> 
> Nice shot, how did it taste?
> 
> ...


 Hey 👋. That's my friend @codes123 on Home-Barista. I'll pass your observations and will ask him to do a ristretto too 🤤. I'd like to see tighter shots on the leva 1:1 - 1:1.5. 
BTW you guys should follow @Denis S on Instagram! He made my laugh when I saw "Hello judges" in his story 😂😂😂


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @SL01 Blanket ? Sorry, I lost you mate. It does remind me of wrapping the Clever when I brew, which I still, for 30 mins! 😊
> 
> My family already thinks something is either seriously wrong with me or brainwashed by folks or possessed by spirits!
> 
> A blanket, in what ever form it might be, will be the last straw potentially risking a call to a psy*** 😂


 @Like Medium Strong Coffee Perhaps the windows are causing drafts across the kitchen which may be playing games with your PIDs but I could be wrong - where i live, we think about stuff like that due to the harsh winters, so my Evo is in a corner well away from the windows.

You sir, are a fine young man of sound mind and spirit, no matter what your family thinks! Evidenced your very wise choice to jump on the Evo!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@SL01 An oldie ageing graciously. Thank you for your kind words Steve! 😀

There are no condensation of windows even in peak winter. The windows are double glazed, in very good condition and found to be sealed fine when we recently refitted the kitchen.

Perhaps, we will try rolling down the shutter of the window next to the machine and see what happens. Can't do this with the larger ones as there would be too much of faffs with stuffs kept on the window sills

Thx for your thought, though. 😊


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Group PID:

*Kp*: 2.0


*Ki:* 0.04


*Kd*: 5.0


*B*: 5



I changed the group to these settings and I'm not liking the results. The avg temp is now .2-.3C under target so the stock setting was much better. But I forgot to write down the stock settings so does anyone have them?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

The stock settings for all 3 PIDs on my machine were (as in the owner's manual): Kp=2, Ki=0, Kd=5 , B=5.

While at it, there is now a slightly updated version of the Owner's manual on Elcor's website:

http://www.elcor.it/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/Vesuvius-Evo-Leva-owners-manual-ver-1.0.pdf


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@gus6464 these small variations are perfectly acceptable and won't make a difference to the cup. So, please DW about it.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It's called Staccato espresso and you find info if you google it (initial pioneer Robert Aloe, then Teddy Nista with his squid tampedon distribution).

The idea behind it is simple, you put a layer for finer grind at the bottom, and a layer coarser at the top. This will prevent fines migration to be that. For sure there are many variations how you can go into this, you can do a 3 layer, there are no rules.

But then comes the crazy part, that you can stack roast levels to ballance them out. For instance here is a kenya too light roasted with a napoletano blend with robusta.

Staccato Tamping: Improving Espresso without a Sifter | by Robert McKeon Aloe | Towards Data Science

Anyway, there are some key points for this method to work, and it's not that easy. But what I observed for sure while having the shots is a more creamy shot, with less harshness and a much more even flow during the shot with no WDT, or really minimal.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Denis S That's an interesting looking puck and the idea is cool as well.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Denis S Thanks Denis for your detailed explanation. I will read the article!

One question :

Did you try the Staccato tamping on the beans you are familiar with, compare them side by side with the normal shot and see if they made a difference on extraction and taste?

Thx,

Sundar

Edit: This question is a straight vanilla stoccato tamping (ex: light only)


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

FYI my machine was doing that slow drip from the grouphead once it got hot that others were experiencing and after I replaced the shower screen circlip with a DIN 1.4122 Stainless Steel one the drip stopped. Not sure if the new circlip has tighter tolerances or what. It is this one for those in US.

https://www.mcmaster.com/98394A496/


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

With the heat up time of the Evo being so stupidly fast, especially compared to those loons who think wrapping towels around the group and flushing volumes through is the same thing.........I have binned my timer switch and gone back to turning her on and off manually. I suppose it all depends on your routine of course but mine gives me a clear 15 minute window in the mornings to allow me to do this.

Has anyone else gone down this route? I have used timer plugs for many a year as well


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I sure did:

https://streamable.com/v7apuy


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Denis S said:


> I sure did:
> 
> https://streamable.com/v7apuy


 There's a bug in your software Denis. You asked to turn on "The Decent", not the "V Evo". 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

time to rename the smart plug, rather than the machine! 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> With the heat up time of the Evo being so stupidly fast, especially compared to those loons who think wrapping towels around the group and flushing volumes through is the same thing.........I have binned my timer switch and gone back to turning her on and off manually. I suppose it all depends on your routine of course but mine gives me a clear 15 minute window in the mornings to allow me to do this.
> 
> Has anyone else gone down this route? I have used timer plugs for many a year as well


 Me too, David.

I use a timer with other machines....but not with the Evo.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@dfk41 No smart switch or a timer, mains here, although I do miss, at times, the convenience of a remote access when I head home.

I don't like the length at which they go to collect PIIs.

Thx!


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

That's why I changed my switch to use Tasmota. No data leaks


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

To those that have upgrading the shower screen for the leva, which IMS one did you buy? I'm not able to currently find the Nanotech one here in Germany. Is the SML200IM any good?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Actually just saw all of them except the SML200IM have holes in the center. That would mean the SML200IM is the only one we could buy right?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@gearosthyd

Shower screen - SML 200 IM = PRECISION SHOWER SCREEN ø 50.5 mm - PART NUMBER: 1081121 = £12.56+VAT

I got this from Adrian.

[email protected]


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

My lever started to squeak when pulling. What part do I need to lubricate to stop this?

https://youtube.com/shorts/BifBOOhpcOI?feature=share


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @gearosthyd
> 
> Shower screen - SML 200 IM = PRECISION SHOWER SCREEN ø 50.5 mm - PART NUMBER: 1081121 = £12.56+VAT
> 
> ...


 Thanks! I was able to find one through Blue star coffee. Can I just remove the circlip holding the old shower screen and replace that way? Or must I disassemble the whole group?

Also, I finally received my new IMS basket. This fixed my channelling issues. I'm sure if it's because it's a slightly wider basket that has reduced the vacuum effect, or if the basket is just better. Either way, I'm happy!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@gearosthyd No. You do not need to remove the whole group. You require an internal circlip plier

It's straightforward. You may also lube the group head bore with Molykote 111 before mounting the shower screen and the circlip.

@gus6464 I am wondering if it is a lack of lubrication of the double spring or a slight misalignment of the lever handle assembly parts. I think @danielpugh had some issue similar to this. Dave would be able to offer more insights into this.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@gus6464 Have these areas discoloured with scuff marks? I can't really see clearly. If yes, please keep these areas very thinly lubed and see if they help.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @gearosthyd No. You do not need to remove the whole group. You require an internal circlip plier
> 
> It's straightforward. You may also lube the group head bore with Molykote 111 before mounting the shower screen and the circlip.


 Ah great! is there any other alternative to Molykote 111? It's around 30eu where I'm from. A bit spenny for some grease....


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

oks1110

Pull the lever down with the machine shut down. Look on the sides of the group (top part) for scuff marks, specially on the right side when you look at it).

As a lever owner, you should always carry a grease that is food safe, and every now and then put a nice song you like, and clean like a ritual the machine and grease it. We are talking about moving parts that are mechanical.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@gearosthyd Not sure. It's a loose change as we had spent 000s on a machine, let alone on grinder, water, etc. It will serve you well for a very long time. 😊


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gearosthyd said:


> Ah great! is there any other alternative to Molykote 111? It's around 30eu where I'm from. A bit spenny for some grease....


 @gearosthyd

https://www.ebay.d/itm/224587581150?hash=item344a7686de:g:LW8AAOSwJVtgzfSW


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

I ended up fixing it by loosening the two bolts on the sides of the handle. Getting a tooth pick with moly 111 and wedging some between the crevices. Noticed that one side had a bigger gap to the bolts so I took a rubber mallet and smacked the other side. Moved the lever up and down while the bolts were a little loose and it centered itself. Tightened it all back down and wiped the excess moly.

But then I found that the hot water spout has a slow drip. I took the wand assembly out and lubed it but it's still doing it so from the videos I watched then the issue is the gasket on the internal spring mechanism. Was one of those gaskets included with the machine? Anyone know which brand the Vesuvius wands are compatible with parts wise?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> I ended up fixing it by loosening the two bolts on the sides of the handle. Getting a tooth pick with moly 111 and wedging some between the crevices. Noticed that one side had a bigger gap to the bolts so I took a rubber mallet and smacked the other side. Moved the lever up and down while the bolts were a little loose and it centered itself. Tightened it all back down and wiped the excess moly.
> 
> But then I found that the hot water spout has a slow drip. I took the wand assembly out and lubed it but it's still doing it so from the videos I watched then the issue is the gasket on the internal spring mechanism. Was one of those gaskets included with the machine? Anyone know which brand the Vesuvius wands are compatible with parts wise?


 got both these problems. re. scratch - Paolo wanted people to email him with pics.

re. leaking hot water - unsure what to do, as only realised it was happening today when found a puddle on the floor..


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> I ended up fixing it by loosening the two bolts


 For the future ref, did you loosen them clock-wise or anti? Thx

The water tap doesn't drip, though


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> For the future ref, do you loosen them clock-wise or anti? Thx
> 
> The water tap doesn't drip, though


 You loosen both by going towards the case of the machine so they are not the same threading.

For the water tap drip i need to get to internal spring mechanism so I have to remove the whole thing from the machine. But I don't want to do that until I have a new internal gasket as I only want to do this once. Just need confirmation which manufacturers gasket i can order that will fit.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> You loosen both by going towards the case of the machine so they are not the same threading.
> 
> For the water tap drip i need to get to internal spring mechanism so I have the remove the whole thing from the machine. But I don't want to do that until I have a new internal gasket as I only want to do this once. Just need confirmation which manufacturers gasket i can order that will fit.


 Worth asking @Paolo_Cortese about the drip - im going to email him now.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> But then I found that the hot water spout has a slow drip. I took the wand assembly out and lubed it but it's still doing it so from the videos I watched then the issue is the gasket on the internal spring mechanism. Was one of those gaskets included with the machine? Anyone know which brand the Vesuvius wands are compatible with parts wise?


 The photos show the valve partly disassembled, and inside is a seal similar to the one in the top of an E61 group. The O rings on the shaft stop it leaking paste the stem when it's opened and the brass piece pushes the seal deep inside in against the spring....which opens the valve....If it's leaking. I have shown the inside of a similar valve mechanism in the diagram below.









this is the nut that I believe has to be undone to get to the internal seat of the valve and you have to hold the nut at at the rear of the panel to get it off...but check this with Paolo, in case things have changed.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @gearosthyd
> 
> https://www.ebay.d/itm/224587581150?hash=item344a7686de:g:LW8AAOSwJVtgzfSW


 Thanks for linking this. Alas, eBay is not allowing me to purchase this for tax reasons&#8230;. 😕

@Denis S Are you using oks1110? It's quite accessible for me here in De.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> The photos show the valve partly disassembled, and inside is a seal similar to the one in the top of an E61 group. The O rings on the shaft stop it leaking paste the stem when it's opened and the brass piece pushes the seal deep inside in against the spring....which opens the valve....If it's leaking. I have shown the inside of a similar valve mechanism in the diagram below.
> 
> View attachment 60845
> 
> ...


 Thanks Dave. I took out the wand portion just like the in picture and let the machine sit with no wand and the drip was still happening so the issue is that gasket with the red arrow on your very last picture. Looking at the pictures it looks like a standard part.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@gus6464 Could just be some crud stuck in the seat and it needs a clean.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Welp I fixed the water spout leak. I didn't actually remove the entire wand but I removed the water spigot portion which I saw had another spring mechanism on it. There's also an o-ring in there that was very compressed so I took it out and put moly on it.

Steps

1. Remove wood joystick assembly and grease the orings and spring

2. Remove water spout assembly and grease orings in the spring assembly and the o-ring on the tip of spout

3. Grab some paper towel or a thin cloth and stick it in the front hole with a screwdriver making sure to compress the main internal spring back and forth to clean it.

4. Grab a toothpick with moly at the end of it and lather the end of the internal spring gasket area that looks like a square.

5. Compress it back and forth so moly gets in there pretty good around that gasket.

6. Put it all back together and fire up the steam boiler to test for leaks.

I can take it all apart again and take pictures if anyone didn't understand the steps above.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@gus6464 Well done! Pictures or a short video would benefit everyone. Thx


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> Welp I fixed the water spout leak. I didn't actually remove the entire wand but I removed the water spigot portion which I saw had another spring mechanism on it. There's also an o-ring in there that was very compressed so I took it out and put moly on it.
> 
> Steps
> 
> ...


 Thanks - Incredibly useful - I'll be doing the same asap!


----------



## SideBob (Jan 30, 2018)

Hi Folks,
I'm closely following the thread. Thanks a lot for all your valuable input!

Is there any new data on shots with the SSP 98mm HU burrs? @Denis S Thanks a lot for your post outlining that they might not be the best choice due to the high pressure rise of the lever if running with both levers installed.

I currently have the HU's in my Nautilus and wonder which 98mm burrs might be a better choice to pair them with the Evo Leva.

Thanks a lote,

Caroline


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh Guys, just remember when lubricating the ball, don't go overboard, or the toggle steam valve may not stay toggled...Do lube it slightly though to avoid.... the ball or thing it presses against wearing out.

This is the inside seal (far left) that's being discussed.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

SideBob said:


> Hi Folks,
> I'm closely following the thread. Thanks a lot for all your valuable input!
> 
> Is there any new data on shots with the SSP 98mm HU burrs? @Denis S Thanks a lot for your post outlining that they might not be the best choice due to the high pressure rise of the lever if running with both levers installed.
> ...


 I had the multi-purpose burrs, and I think they tasted like arse. Moved back to the stock EK43 burrs(post 2015) and the coffee tastes a lot better. Not sure about the HUs though. Would definitely like to try them.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

SideBob said:


> Hi Folks,
> I'm closely following the thread. Thanks a lot for all your valuable input!
> 
> Is there any new data on shots with the SSP 98mm HU burrs? @Denis S Thanks a lot for your post outlining that they might not be the best choice due to the high pressure rise of the lever if running with both levers installed.
> ...


 Lagom P100 has the HU 98mm SSP burrs from factory. These are 2 shots made with this combo.






My friend did a lot of seasoning tho!


----------



## NelisB (Nov 4, 2021)

Hello ,

Can anyone confirm that this is the waterline connection? On the bottom / rear/ right side


__
http://instagr.am/p/CWFzIS5sXol/


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

NelisB said:


> Hello ,
> 
> Can anyone confirm that this is the waterline connection? On the bottom / rear/ right side
> 
> ...


 It is.


----------



## NelisB (Nov 4, 2021)

Thanks!


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

@MW11 Where did he get that shot mirror?


----------



## NelisB (Nov 4, 2021)

To use the mains you have to go in the advanced menu setting and change the parameters as follow:

F03 = 1; F04 = 1

F05 means when how many seconds the error pop up if the filling fails.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> The photos show the valve partly disassembled, and inside is a seal similar to the one in the top of an E61 group. The O rings on the shaft stop it leaking paste the stem when it's opened and the brass piece pushes the seal deep inside in against the spring....which opens the valve....If it's leaking. I have shown the inside of a similar valve mechanism in the diagram below.
> 
> View attachment 60845
> 
> ...


 Slightly different on the new arm. I removed the toggle (same as your first picture - greased as shown), then unscrewed to wand connection which has a sprung metal (cartridge?) and also an o-ring. I greased the ring and cartridge/spring in the same way as the first. Seems successful so far. Left on for an hour and no leaks, although longer needed to be sure.

Could well be more in the remaining part, but I thought I'd leave that for now as it meant taking the top off to get behind, and leaning towards laziness and quick fix!

I g


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh please tell me you took photos?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> @MW11 Where did he get that shot mirror?


 He made it by using a mobile stand + magnifying mirror.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh please tell me you took photos?


 I can take photos when my machine cools down. Basically the water spout portion has 2 failsafes to prevent leaks as there are two spring mechanisms before the main one. The wand has a spring mechanism which pushes on both the one coming from the boiler and also another on the water spout itself.



danielpugh said:


> Slightly different on the new arm. I removed the toggle (same as your first picture - greased as shown), then unscrewed to wand connection which has a sprung metal (cartridge?) and also an o-ring. I greased the ring and cartridge/spring in the same way as the first. Seems successful so far. Left on for an hour and no leaks, although longer needed to be sure.
> 
> Could well be more in the remaining part, but I thought I'd leave that for now as it meant taking the top off to get behind, and leaning towards laziness and quick fix!
> 
> I g


 So did my instructions help or did you do something different?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> I can take photos when my machine cools down. Basically the water spout portion has 2 failsafes to prevent leaks as there are two spring mechanisms before the main one. The wand has a spring mechanism which pushes on both the one coming from the boiler and also another on the water spout itself.
> 
> So did my instructions help or did you do something different?


 Sorry hectic few days of work. Yes instructions helped a great deal, and now seems sorted. Thank you!


----------



## deiadri (Aug 26, 2021)

I just wanted to post my experiences with the Evo.

First of all: Damn this machine looks nice! I love the feel of the lever action. No squeaking of the lever or dripping of the valves.

Setup was easy. However, the brew boiler was constanly overshooting by about 4 degrees over the set temperature and from there on slowly falling down which could take about 10 minutes (the boiler seems to be pretty well insulated). For me the PID settings that solved the problem were: Kp = 0.7; Ki = 0.03; Kd = 12; B = 50.

B = 50 did the trick for me. With B = 20 I still had 3 degrees overshoot. I don't know why, but since everything works fine now (plus minus 0.5 around set temperature for group and boilers) I don't care anymore 



SideBob said:


> Is there any new data on shots with the SSP 98mm HU burrs? @Denis S Thanks a lot for your post outlining that they might not be the best choice due to the high pressure rise of the lever if running with both levers installed.


 Since I only have the machine for a couple of days so please take this with a grain of salt.

What I observed with the HU burrs in an EK43 is that the shot starts out great (visually), but then the stream quickly thins out and the flow rate increases (maybee the puck breaking down). Might be due to the combination of comparably low fines in combination with the high pressure of the lever. I did not really observe this with my Lelit set to 6-7 bar pressure.

However: The shots already taste quite good and with the (in comparison to my former Lelit Bianca) ridiculously accurate temperature control, there is still so much potential to make better shots. So I wouldn't say the HU burrs are a "bad" companion to the Evo in any way.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)




----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Easy to pull on Niche and Leversaurus beans that were impossible on Decent and Niche (remember I already had a black Niche 16 months ago with Decent) and i'm not much smarter that I was back then.

17 g doses (niche needs longer brew time compared to previous grinders and because of that a bit higher temp even on light roast)

9-9.5 TDS range with 23-23.5% EY for ratios I go with 17 g in 40-43.5 g out for now, but will give the 1-2 ratio a go in the future.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

Has anyone been pulling light roasts with lower temps on their EVOS? I have a light roast Ethiopian where I did two shots today at 88c and 90c at the group and they both ended up very sweet. The 88c shot had a smidgen more acidity when combined with the sweetness produced a really tasty shot.

The bean profile listed raspberry and the shot I got at 88c was something reminiscent of raspberry preservers which I found super tasty.

This is going against everything you hear regurgitated online that light roasts need higher temps.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

gus6464 said:


> Has anyone been pulling light roasts with lower temps on their EVOS? I have a light roast Ethiopian where I did two shots today at 88c and 90c at the group and they both ended up very sweet. The 88c shot had a smidgen more acidity when combined with the sweetness produced a really tasty shot.
> 
> The bean profile listed raspberry and the shot I got at 88c was something reminiscent of raspberry preservers which I found super tasty.
> 
> This is going against everything you hear regurgitated online that light roasts need higher temps.


 Light roast = filter roast for you? What grinder are you using? What ratios were you using? And what time did you roughly get?

I've been trying filters on my machine but haven't got anything that I would be proud of. 'Been extracting at 95 boiler/87group.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I did not move from anything. It seems people dont want to hear about this type of things, after they spent 3k on a lagom p100, right?

I did not change my bentwood neither did I made the post to say the bentwood got beaten by a Niche to troll. In my post I did not even compare grinders or speak about comparing them, I dont want to do that because I found out it depends on what machine you have, leave aside the water you use (custom made with certain concentration of minerals).

I made the post to show that with the proper machine/technique you can make really good tasting espresso out of filter roasts (with high numbers if you care about those too, I dont anymore) with a Niche. And now people accuse me of trolling, so I showed that Gardelli is using the niche in his coffee shop to pull single dosing out of his roasts.

So who is trolling now? me with proofs, or the people who spent 3k on a Lagom p100 and are not able to make good coffee?


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I did not move from anything. It seems people dont want to hear about this type of things, after they spent 3k on a lagom p100, right?
> 
> I did not change my bentwood neither did I made the post to say the bentwood got beaten by a Niche to troll. In my post I did not even compare grinders or speak about comparing them, I dont want to do that because I found out it depends on what machine you have, leave aside the water you use (custom made with certain concentration of minerals).
> 
> ...


 Can you link you espresso guide roast? I wanna try it this afternoon?


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

BilliumB said:


> Hi Denis
> 
> I'm a bit muddled by your response - I only asked about the Bentwood as I wondered whether you might be thinking of selling it!
> 
> ...


 My response about the p100 was not to you, sorry if you took it like that. Right now there are hyped products and trends to follow. I jumped off the ssp train some time ago (about 16 months ago?) when I dedicated to swap my SSP 98mm hu burrs in my aligned ek with a rare pair of turkish pre2015 cast burrs. Those burrs produced a better espresso than ssp 98mm HU.

Then I got the bentwood (for various reasons, one of them being it has no ssp, it would be that or Ditting, but I dont like the dittings) We are speaking of single dose grinders here.

I think the lever helps much more with the extraction, and the sweetness and the aftertaste than any other pump modern machine would. So if you have a gs3, or a mina, or a Bianca I believe the lever would work easier and have much faster better results compared to those, no matter what grinder you pair it with. So right now saying grinder X is bad and grinder Y is good, it's pointless.

I am getting far superior results with the lever and the niche (leave aside the workflow that is non existent, grind tap tamp on Niche) then I did with bentwood or ek43 or ultra with the Decent. So this doesnt mean that the Niche is a better grinder, it just works much better on the lever for me, on dark to light roasts.

While pulling some shots in the last days, for sure I do need to step up in temp to 103/104 brew boiler with 94 grouphead.

To have a comparison of facts:
on ssp 64 unimodal and 98mm hu in ultra I had to pull at a much lower temp: 86 group and 94 boiler - extraction temp 90C

on bentwood I had to pull at 98 boiler and 90 group - extraction temp 94 C

on the Niche even on light stuff (Gardelli) I have to be at 103/104 brew boiler and 94 group - extraction temp close to 100C?

Yes the weather now changed, and the temp here dropped from 15-18C to bellow 7C so that might also have to do a tiny bit with it but I still believe on the Niche you need a much higher temp.

Since coarser grind is much easier to work with, it demands no puck prep, no WDT, niche has 0 clumps even when grinding at 6 on dial (espresso is at 9-15 for me) this in relation to the high temp makes me believe that the Niche has less fines overall in relation to the total particles and more boulders compared to Bentwood and ssp (the king of fines).

So having a much lower temp extracts the fines less and makes you grind coarser, having a clear taste (that is what you do for SSP). The bentwood would be positioned in between a Niche and SSP, with less fines than SSP and more fines than Niche.

For me the Niche doesnt work for brewing, so i'm sticking to my Bentwood that does a great job.

I do not do anything fancy on niche, 17g grind for a 30-35 sec shot, my water is 150-180ppm (similar to TWW water 40buffer/140Mg) I preinfuse for 12-16 sec and pull the shot for the rest for ~40g out.

Temp is 103/94, I use bplus and the small ims basket that is made for 18g.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

is that not just swings and round abouts then if you are altering temps t suit the grinder? i think alot of it comes from the fact if you spunk £3000 on a grinder, even if it was shit you wouldnt tell a soul..


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Cuprajake Tis true for many a purchase....


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

which is what i commend @Denis S for coming out and openly stating he wasn't a fan of his decent, when i did that about londinium i got shot down pretty quickly,

at the end of the day were all niche (not the grinder) users, lets face it anyone who spends £1000 on making a brew needs their heads testing? correct


----------



## JahLaza (Mar 18, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> which is what i commend @Denis S for coming out and openly stating he wasn't a fan of his decent, when i did that about londinium i got shot down pretty quickly,
> 
> at the end of the day were all niche (not the grinder) users, lets face it anyone who spends £1000 on making a brew needs their heads testing? correct


 You might be right😂


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

gearosthyd said:


> Light roast = filter roast for you? What grinder are you using? What ratios were you using? And what time did you roughly get?
> 
> I've been trying filters on my machine but haven't got anything that I would be proud of. 'Been extracting at 95 boiler/87group.


 I guess you can call it filter roast. My local roaster just calls it light roast.

Grinder is a eureka Drogheria 85 with mythos 2 non-coated burrs. 2:1 ratio 18g in, 36g out. Total extraction time is prob around 40 secs as I don't count preinfusion and then ~28s extraction from first drips.

I've done shots on these beans as low as 88c and as high as 96c and based on the temps.

Lower temps - fruitiness goes up along with acidity.

Higher temps - fruits go away but more body.

I don't like the taste at anything above 92. They are still good shots but generic tasting if that makes any sense.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> which is what i commend @Denis S for coming out and openly stating he wasn't a fan of his decent, when i did that about londinium i got shot down pretty quickly,


 Shot down on here or somewhere else?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> which is what i commend @Denis S for coming out and openly stating he wasn't a fan of his decent, when i did that about londinium i got shot down pretty quickly,
> 
> at the end of the day were all niche (not the grinder) users, lets face it anyone who spends £1000 on making a brew needs their heads testing? correct


 I think once you spend much more than £1000, it's become a hobby/passion. A bit like an expensive car, none of us need them, but they're nice to drive. I have a lot of machines, and the pride of ownership thing doesn't really work with me any more. Mostly, if a machine (if it works OK) it on the main bench, it stays there until I can be bothered to move it. Apart from Frankenstien (the Evo prototype), if he was working again, it would go back on the bench <sigh>


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@DavecUK Seems to me that the very least @Paolo_Cortese can do is to gift you an EVO ! (Plus a knightship of course for "services to coffee" )


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@GrahamSPhillips Pah.....I wish...He is too busy trying to get machines to customers (which is as it should be). All I need is a new bottom half to the group, to fix the valve leak and failed heating element all in one go. The very old group I have, has a poor fit for the heating elements, which is why one burnt out within days. So no point repairing the valve and putting a new heating element in, it will just burn out again.

Once I have that. I can take the boilers out to cut the capacitor off and fix the other leak. Frankenstein, is not built the same as a production machine.....I do miss it though!


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

For me the EVO has made it so that I don't wonder at all anymore if "will I get a good shot today". That was a thing every single day with my e61 machine.

For that alone I now realize I would pay thousands for it again.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I do think the ambient temperature would make a difference.
> 
> Our kitchen is large, it's has got 3 windows - 2 large and 1 standard sizes next to the coffee machine.
> 
> ...


 Wish the brew/coffee temps were a bit more understood. For me In default advanced settings and brew set to 94 it goes to 102. On the settings above it goes to 99 before drifting down to the set temp at which point it kicks in and overshoots. Ambient/room temperature is 19.5 based on the thermostat.

Still making very good coffee, but I don't understand how steam and group are so exact in comparison. Seemingly the problem is that with any settings it always goes full throttle to the set temperature, so it always overshoots massively. Then takes ages to cool enough till it narrows in. Then you pull a shot, which takes it down a lot, and the whole process restarts. It would be better if the heating could stop a bit early (e.g. 5 degrees) to allow the heat to reach the sensor as this seems to be where the lag is. Would have thought that this is exactly what PID is for, so bit confused why advanced settings don't seem to make much difference.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh What are your PID settings for the brew boiler?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh What are your PID settings for the brew boiler?


 Have tried the defaults and the other variant posted.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh If you could list them for me, it would save me a bit of time and I don't know if the settings my test bed came with are the same as yours. Just run through them on your display, not em down and pop em on here.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh If you could list them for me, it would save me a bit of time and I don't know if the settings my test bed came with are the same as yours. Just run through them on your display, not em down and pop em on here.


 thanks - so today i have tried the default ones listed in the sway manual (kp 2, ki 0, kd 12, b 5. i have also tried @Like Medium Strong Coffee of Kp 0.7, ki 0.04, kd 12, B 50. i als tried reducing B to 50.

closest i got was to set the target temperature to e.g. 5 degrees less than what i want which works initially obviously but then the temp falls very slowly. That way i can flush which triggers a drop then rise to the exact temp. However feels very random this way...


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

You have a 8C set difference between the brew boiler and the grouphead, right?

With a 8C difference during a shot pull you will see only a little change in temp for the group temp and a few C drop for the boiler temp but the recovery time is fast.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpughI reduced the Ki to 0.3 now. I get two behaviours. Those metrics helped me reduce the overshoot from 5C from cold start.

For the temp <= 100, the group, from cold start, overshoots +1C from the set level.

For anything >100, it marks 1.5C / 2.0 C higher.

I believe these margins are fine when we switch the machine on.

Once it stabilises, it will stay < 0.5C either side.

Your margin is on the higher side; you may want to tweak P and D and not I. You might to check if the connections are secure and away from copper pipes (don't think this is relevant).

Your ambient temperature is warmer than mine.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh Try increasing Kd to 15 and reducing Kp to 0.5


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Denis S said:


> You have a 8C set difference between the brew boiler and the grouphead, right?
> 
> With a 8C difference during a shot pull you will see only a little change in temp for the group temp and a few C drop for the boiler temp but the recovery time is fast.


 yep. The problem (as i see it) is the overshoot of the boiler temp. If i am aiming for 96 brew with group at 88 all fine in theory. However my brew temp is set for 96, and goes up to 100 then falls slowly to 96. if i pull a shot the inrush of water cools the boiler triggering element to go to 96 (i.e. when it cuts off) which then overshoots to 100 again.



DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh Try increasing Kd to 15 and reducing Kp to 0.5


 will try that now


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Adjusted values as per @DavecUK.

Set temp is 96

Pulled shot -> down to 88 -> boiler on (cuts out at 96) -> increases up to 101.9 -> very slowly falls.

Pulling shot drops temp. Currently finding that during drop heat being added at 96.5, then at 97(?). Always going up to around 100.5.

The element is always flat out anything below 96. Surely it needs some element of backing off prior to the set temperature?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh Reducing Kp will reduce the response to a dip in temperature below the set point. The larger the dip the larger the response. Try reducing Kp little more.

Increasing Kd will attempt to reduce overshoot....try increasing it a little more.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh Reducing Kp will reduce the response to a dip in temperature below the set point. The larger the dip the larger the response. Try reducing Kp little more.
> 
> Increasing Kd will attempt to reduce overshoot....try increasing it a little more.


 So the PID is working on the basis that you never pull shots as far as I can tell. If i leave the machine for half an hour it's exactly 96.

However if I pull a shot it sucks in water -> temp drops (say 88 degC) -> Full power all the way to 96 -> overshoots to 100 -> PID starts to gradually work and narrow in (however takes a relatively long time as slow to drop). -> eventually narrows into 96 > start cycle again.

As I see it, should be programmed to reduce power as it gets closer to 96 (or whatever the target). i.e. it should be slowing down _before_ reaching the target temp say at 93 then adding incrementally smaller amounts till target achieved.

I'm sure this is what it's supposed to do, but the logic seems to be turned off or reset every time a shot is pulled...


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> As I see it, should be programmed to reduce power as it gets closer to 96 (or whatever the target).


 I think, you are looking at a (closed-loop) control systems, which dynamically auto-tunes parameters based on the prevailing conditions. I think, this would be pretty expensive to implement. 😊


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> I think, you are looking at a (closed-loop) control systems, which dynamically auto-tunes parameters based on the prevailing conditions. I think, this would be pretty expensive to implement. 😊


 you definately know more about this than me. if PID cant do above via software in some way then surely it will always overshoot every time a shot is pulled. So on the second cup, or have to wait half an hour between cups for it to stabilise.

if thats the reality then the answer may be to set e.g. 4 degrees below to take into account the overshoot. so to get right temp initially you have to pull/flush an empty shot triggering the (compensated) overshoot.

Particularly relevant for me as ill almost always be making 2 cups at a time (otherwise my wife gets angry!)

Or maybe its better to understand why the overshoot is so high. a different shaped temp sensor (lower into the boiler for example - presumably there is a delay as the heated water rises upwards)..


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh Auto-tune would require extensive code development or a 3rd party software embedded on the board. These will make the Evo very expensive. Dave may correct me, if I am wrong.

The brew dropping 5-8 deg is understandable as pretty cold water enters. It defo springs back very quickly.

You waiting for 30 mins is too long. We pull back to back shots, which take 2-3 mins. Because, I need that time prep the puck.

I was thinking if your direct plumbing - if this is the way the water is fed - is a suspect. How cold is your water ? My tap water is 18.3C. But, osmio gives water at 25C, but if I measure, it is 19.4C. So, it can't be the reason.

I think it is worth opening the top and reseat the wirings - loose contact, touching areas it shouldn't, just in case.

I set some time at 5C-6C. Don't see a big difference on the cup. I have set some shots at parity - esp the light roasts. This result always surprises me even now. Please experiment by all means and tell us the notes and taste.

I do want to tweak the parameters to see where it takes me. I have left it at those levels, as I don't have time to experiment.

Thx


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Yes it's direct plumb.

With a cheap milk thermometer 20 Deg c

Just went upstairs after half hour of work. Temp was 97. By time puck prepped 96.

Pulled shot and went to 87 then up to 101.5.

Time to fall back to 96 is not exact, but it's very slow. After about 5 mins it's 100


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh When I do parameters testing, I normally switch off, allow the machine to cool down and observe the behaviours on a re-start. This will give you a realistic assessment of new settings. Often, a cold start is helpful, at least in my case.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

danielpugh said:


> 1. So the PID is working on the basis that you never pull shots as far as I can tell. If i leave the machine for half an hour it's exactly 96.
> 
> 2. However if I pull a shot it sucks in water -> temp drops (say 88 degC) -> Full power all the way to 96 -> overshoots to 100 -> PID starts to gradually work and narrow in (however takes a relatively long time as slow to drop). -> eventually narrows into 96 > start cycle again.
> 
> ...


 1. No, the PID is working as it is programmed and in line with the P I and D parameters used.

2. There is a fundamental differences/considerations for a PID used in a machine like an Evo. One of them is; Unlike an E61 which has perhaps 70ml of water used for a double shot, the Evo probably sticks 90 to 100 ml through. It does that in 4 seconds unlike the leisurely 30 seconds of an E61 or similar pumped machine. This causes a relatively large influx of cold water into the boiler *over* a very short time.

There are other considerations, because unlike an E61, the group is massive and also has heaters and a PID...when it fills with water,. this essentially forms a saturated group with PID heating control. The brew boiler is more of close preheat than needing to be exact. If it's a bit higher than the normal 6-8C compared to the group (e.g. 8-12C) than you will get a falling temp shot and vice versa. But that depends on experimentation for your taste and conditions.

The flushing of the group after the shot introduces more water.

3. They are, that's what derivative (or rate) does. The proportional gives it a boost based on how far the temp drops and below the value of B in C, the PID acts as an On/Off control.

4. No, that's not happening, you need to program in the compromise your happy with. However, stopping overshoot, might mean the brew boiler has to be slow to get back to temperature. Overshoots in an insulated boiler are hard to deal with, because it can gain heat fast, but only lose it relatively slowly, because it's insulated.

Just play about with the parameters I gave you...make P = 0.1 and D=20....and see what happens. If the PID becomes super sluggish, decrease the value of B so it becomes ON/OFF closer to the setpoint (but not too close).

P.S. When playing with and tuning the PID, ideally the machine should be stable e.g. on for 30m or more and have stabilised after pulling a shot.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh When I do parameters testing, I normally switch off, allow the machine to cool down and observe the behaviours on a re-start. This will give you a realistic assessment of new settings. Often, a cold start is helpful, at least in my case.


 With you there apart from my typical flow is that machine has been on (timer for 7am) and I come in and make 2 cups. Then an hour then two more then another hour and another two cups. At the moment that equates to 1st cup - boiler at 97, 2nd cup boiler at 100.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

danielpugh said:


> With you there apart from my typical flow is that machine has been on (timer for 7am) and I come in and make 2 cups. Then an hour then two more then another hour and another two cups. At the moment that equates to 1st cup - boiler at 97, 2nd cup boiler at 100.


 What's your altitude? There has to be something else going on because I set my PID to the parameters discussed here and the boilers all stay within .2c of my set temp and when I pull a shot the entire system is back to temp before I can finish prepping the other puck. Plus I don't have the luxury of all boilers going on at the same time as I'm 110v and everything is back to recovered temp in less than 2 mins.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gus6464 said:


> What's your altitude? There has to be something else going on because I set my PID to the parameters discussed here and the boilers all stay within .2c of my set temp and when I pull a shot the entire system is back to temp before I can finish prepping the other puck. Plus I don't have the luxury of all boilers going on at the same time as I'm 110v and everything is back to recovered temp in less than 2 mins.


 50m above sea level. Something definitely strange as no settings I make seem to make any difference, although will try some more adjustments shortly.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> 1. No, the PID is working as it is programmed and in line with the P I and D parameters used.
> 
> 2. There is a fundamental differences/considerations for a PID used in a machine like an Evo. One of them is; Unlike an E61 which has perhaps 70ml of water used for a double shot, the Evo probably sticks 90 to 100 ml through. It does that in 4 seconds unlike the leisurely 30 seconds of an E61 or similar pumped machine. This causes a relatively large influx of cold water into the boiler *over* a very short time.
> 
> ...


 So changed P to 0.1 and D to 20. No change at all.

Changed B (was 5), and increased B to 50.

This did change things.

Heating turned on at 94 when temp dropping (flush lever), then stopped heating at 93.5. main difference was that boiler temp only rises to a peak of 98.3 (previously 101).


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh Now try =reducing the value of B to find out the point at which it begins to overshoot more.. You can also increase the derivative value, try 30 etc..


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh Sorry! I checked my parameters of the brew. They were at 0.4, 0.3 ,20 and 50 for P, I, D and V resp. The Brew overshoots from cold start remain unchanged for both conditions (<=100, >100).

Sorry for not checking and updating earlier.

I will experiment when I have time.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Some people accuse me of high style trolling with the Niche under my belt. Let us go from one extreme to another to see the possibilities once you understand how the machine grinder relation works.

First thing I did to check my temp measurements some time ago was to set the brew boiler at 104C and the grouptemp at 96 C this would give me a ~100C brewing temp. Flush after the temps are stable and look at the steams. So all check if you keep a 8 C off-set between the group and the boiler you will get the average value between them as the brewing water temp.

I know for sure that the Niche needs a much higher temp regardless of the beans used comparing to other grinders (mostly flat). so let's set the brew boiler at 102 C and the group temp at 94C and let's proceed to pull some delicious shots:

A crema bar napoletano blend roasted by Saka Naples.

17 g in/25 g out goes really really well with a bit of sugar. Attention, this is a dark roast. Balanced, sweet, texture is wow, no bitterness.

so as you can see with it I can jump with ease using a cheap grinder from dark to light roast with no problem. I am happy.

















Let's move from this to the extreme, a cinnamon light roast from the North

17.4g in/45.2 g out in 30 sec with a 9 TDS= 23.4% EY

You can see there is crema, the colour is what the beans are, a really light roast. I do enjoy it, it tasted like wild honey, cherries and almonds.

https://streamable.com/mttrwm


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> @danielpugh Now try =reducing the value of B to find out the point at which it begins to overshoot more.. You can also increase the derivative value, try 30 etc..


 so i tried changing D value. seemed to make no difference in two increments of 5 (to 35) and then back down to 25.

i changed B downwards a bit, and no real change. Tried increasing it to 70, but no better.



Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh Sorry! I checked my parameters of the brew. They were at 0.4, 0.3 ,20 and 50 for P, I, D and V resp. The Brew overshoots from cold start remain unchanged for both conditions (<=100, >100).
> 
> Sorry for not checking and updating earlier.
> 
> I will experiment when I have time.


 This morning tried above settings. Similar results with the heating going off around 93. It then keeps rising over about a minute to 98.X. Then takes 6 minutes to cool to 96.5 (target temp is 96 still).


----------



## JahLaza (Mar 18, 2021)

Denis S said:


> Some people accuse me of high style trolling with the Niche under my belt. Let us go from one extreme to another to see the possibilities once you understand how the machine grinder relation works.
> 
> First thing I did to check my temp measurements some time ago was to set the brew boiler at 104C and the grouptemp at 96 C this would give me a ~100C brewing temp. Flush after the temps are stable and look at the steams. So all check if you keep a 8 C off-set between the group and the boiler you will get the average value between them as the brewing water temp.
> 
> ...


 What changes did you make between the dark and light roasts if temp was constant? You note the in out weights but times/niche setting? ( I just started on my new niche after using eureka specialita for the last while so am getting into the niche zone right now!)


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I did no temp change.

The dark blend was grind at 14 the light roast was grind at 9 (my grinder was cleaned and calibrated like in Dave's or Niche video).

The other difference is the preinfusion time that is manual and another difference is the volume in the cup.

I pulled 45g out from 17.4g from the light roast in ~30 sec

I pulled 25 g out from 17g of dark roast in over 30 sec.

So quite a difference in flow in the cup and ratio.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

@danielpugh Can you check the time between the moment the brew boiler heater turns on (probably easiest to do it while machine is idle) and you start seeing the temperature increase on the screen (you might see that the temp continues to decrease after a shot but keep counting)? That's called dead time - the time to get a reaction to the heater turning on, and I believe that is the biggest cause for the overshoots.

My suspicion is that the dead time varies based on where the sensor is in the boiler (closer to the heater means shorter dead time) and the incoming water temp and as such other people's settings will not necessarily work for you. My settings for the brew boiler are 2,0,10,50 (P,I,D,B) and I get about 0,5-1 degree variation even after pulling a shot and was getting about 4-5 degree overshoots with the default settings.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh Is this during the initial warm up time from the cold start? What happens to the range and a drop back to the set point after you pull a shot ? How does it compare to the cold start ?

Your 6 mins to cool down to the set point is too long.

I remember only one incident the week end before since Aug, where I pulled a shot; prepared the puck for another, kept waiting for it to drop closer to the set point, it didn't. Losing patience, I flushed a bit of water. It did come off quickly to stabilise, which allowed me to pull my second.

Most of the users don't have this issue. I had and still might probably, but I have learnt to accept it as I don't have time to play with it. I think this is a local environment issue.

Btw, did you check the internals to see if everything is in order?


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

pinky said:


> @danielpugh Can you check the time between the moment the brew boiler heater turns on (probably easiest to do it while machine is idle) and you start seeing the temperature increase on the screen (you might see that the temp continues to decrease after a shot but keep counting)? That's called dead time - the time to get a reaction to the heater turning on, and I believe that is the biggest cause for the overshoots.
> 
> My suspicion is that the dead time varies based on where the sensor is in the boiler (closer to the heater means shorter dead time) and the incoming water temp and as such other people's settings will not necessarily work for you. My settings for the brew boiler are 2,0,10,50 (P,I,D,B) and I get about 0,5-1 degree variation even after pulling a shot and was getting about 4-5 degree overshoots with the default settings.


 Yes it's definitely something like this. Water enters the boiler in the same place on all the machines though.

The key thing I noticed is that the time from the light going off (about 93) to the peak temp (current settings about 98) is about 1-1.5 mins.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh Is this during the initial warm up time from the cold start? What happens to the range and a drop back to the set point after you pull a shot ? How does it compare to the cold start ?
> 
> Your 6 mins to cool down to the set point is too long.
> 
> ...


 No, as that's never a thing for me as it starts up and warms from a timer. At any point when warm - pull the lever (either without a shot or with) which triggers a pumped inrush of water and boiler to lose temp fast (e.g. to 87). In turn this triggers heating element to warm which (on current settings) cuts power to the element around 93. Temp continues to rise for a longish time (1-1.5 mins), straight through the target temperature (96deg) to about 98.

As @pinky said it's got to be linked to e.g. convection/delay to the sensor reading - struggling to understand why it takes so long as presumably all sensors in roughly the same place. I'm not in a particularly high/hot/cold place (Cornwall/UK). Newish build in thermostat controlled temperature at around 21 Deg c.no drafts etc.

Removing the top will happen, but need a weekend at least as busy with work, and getting the side off (more accurately putting it back on) to remove the capacitor was a nightmare. Not sure what I'll be looking beyond loose connection which seems unlikely as it displays the temperature. If the sensor location/depth was adjustable, or there was e.g. an airlock to remove somehow then would make more sense.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

danielpugh said:


> Water enters the boiler in the same place on all the machines though.


 True, but when you're plumbed in, the water coming from the mains (even when mixed with the tank water) is colder than the nicely warmed up tank water when not  My machine is far away from the mains so the water is more like room temp from sitting in the pipe all night.

Easy experiment would be to fill up the tank (just lift the middle pipe in the tank and hold it up till the tank is filled up), let the water warm up and see if the PID reacts the same way.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@pinky While what you say makes sense, my case isn't massively different.

I fill up the supply tank from osmio, which gives 25C water, which is more like ~19.5C on my glass. The overshoot in my case is still 1.5-2C, although it doesn't take 6-7 mins to reach the set point.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

I don't know how big the effect is on the Evo, I know that on my old machine, switching from tank to plumbed had a big effect on the recovery times but that one had the tank next to the boiler so the water temp in the tank was way higher.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

@danielpughIsn't boiler overshoot a feature when machine turns on from cold start? Maybe your machine thinks that the brew boiler is always doing a cold start.

@Denis S Where are you seeing that the actual brew temp is in the middle of what the group and brew temps are set to? If my machine is set to 92c at group and 100c at boiler, during the entire time the shot is pulling the group temp stays at 92c on the display.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

pinky said:


> I don't know how big the effect is on the Evo, I know that on my old machine, switching from tank to plumbed had a big effect on the recovery times but that one had the tank next to the boiler so the water temp in the tank was way higher.


 I get that - on my duetto plumbed in meant water straight to the boiler. On the Evo plumbed in is just a pipe and relay/trigger that causes the same tank to be filled, which in turn feeds the boiler.

@gus6464cold start is a red herring. None of my descriptions relate to a cold start. All of them describe a warmed up machine (on for several hours), and the time it takes for the coffee/brew boiler to return to the target temperature after pulling a shot. The key being that that I have a long lag where the temperature keeps increasing after heat is applied;

1. Warm machine - at 96deg (target temp)

2.shot pulled - pump fills boiler to compensate water gone to the group, and so temp drops to about 88 and element starts heating (all good as expected).

3. Element turns of at 93 Deg, short of targe temperature. A good thing as takes some time for heat to spread through tank via convection.

4. At this point it seems strange as my water temp on screen keeps rising for about 1-1.5 mins reaching a peak of 98+ i.e. some way past the target temperature This is what I would like to adjust/reduce ideally as it takes about 6 mins for this excess heat to dissipate and temperature to drop to the target of 96.

Worth noting that none of this is a killer bad thing. I just don't understand it, and trying to work out if it can be compensated for by software, or if it's a defect. It seems that few of us have this phenomenon. I only noticed randomly when I noticed my Brew boiler was set to 96 but actually at 102 degrees, so has improved significantly already. Meaning maybe it's more common than it seems. But if not common, then what is the cause of the variance given near identical machines.

Assuming it is an unusual phenomenon is what makes me think maybe hardware like a duff sensor or airlock resulting in sensor not covered in water or ... Etc


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

For those that have done repairs or work on the Leva, what wrench size(s) do you recommend? I would like to undo the steam wand fixture as I've noticed some grinding going on underneath.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

gearosthyd said:


> For those that have done repairs or work on the Leva, what wrench size(s) do you recommend? I would like to undo the steam wand fixture as I've noticed some grinding going on underneath.


 Just use a crescent.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

gearosthyd said:


> For those that have done repairs or work on the Leva, what wrench size(s) do you recommend? I would like to undo the steam wand fixture as I've noticed some grinding going on underneath.


 I used an adjustable wrench wrapped in some electrical tape to avoid scratches. Seemed to work fine.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

I was thinking this too. What mm are you two using? I'd prefer not to have to buy multiple! 😄


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Also, would this circlip work? https://www.amazon.de/-/en/gp/product/B081VFN4CR/ref=ox_sc_saved_title_3?smid=A201FC1WN1Z71I&psc=1


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

A Knipex Plier wrench model 86 05 250 should work well to service the steam wand (I've used one to loosen the steam tap in preparation for replacing my Vesuvius style wand with the Vostok version). Using electrical tape on the jaws won't hurt (and I'd recommend it).

This quality tool is commonly used by plumbers for chrome plated bathroom fixtures, and will be better than garden variety crescent wrenches IMO.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

One thing I have been wondering since I got my evo. Since the group is the normal lsm lever group just slightly modified, should I be able to replace the stock lever handle on my machine with the V Lever?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh You may try these parameters and observe :

0.3, 0.02,25.0,50.

My set point is at 98, group is at 92.0. Our current set of beans is medium dark.

Cold start any way is 1.5C overshoot. Please ignore this.

- From that cold start overshoot, it takes 2.1 mins to reach the set point.

- Pulled a shot, the brew temp goes to 92, hits 98.7 in < 1 min, gently eases to the set point in 35s.

-did a large flush of ~194g, which I weighed on a scale, the brew drops to 67+, raises very quickly to 98.8 in >1 m and took 1:07:46 mins to reach the set point.

- repeated the flush again, ~232g of water, drops to ~74+C, back up again to 98.7C and drops back to the set point in 1:05:04s.

I think. I am only looking at incremental tweaks from these settings.

Edit: My machine is still on, as I am waiting to make a cup for my daughter. I saw it at 98.9. But, the easing is consistent as before.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh You may try these parameters and observe :
> 
> 0.3, 0.02,25.0,50.
> 
> ...


 Ok, cool, and thank you for the time investigating! I Have set those settings.

Timeline today

Machines turns on at 7am

Make single cup for wife - 96deg

School run, then single cup for me 96deg

Then set new settings. I do a small cup-sized flush which brings temp down to 87.3, and start stopwatch on phone.

35 seconds - heat turns off

1.29 - rises to peak of 98.9deg

5mins 11 - 97.8

7mins 37 - 96.6

9.02 .ins - 96

So, if I'm reading things right significantly different - particularly in terms of the rate of temperature drop.

I can't help think that perhaps the sensor isn't submerged in the water perhaps. Would that explain things i.e. it's taking the temp of air in void (guessing as the difference seems very strange)


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Hm, do you have one of those new cup trays that are laser cut sheet metal? Or is the top of your machine covered?

The brew boiler should be fully saturated and should be pressurized during pre-infusion so even if there is an air bubble in there it can't be that big that the air temp would be substantially different than the water temp.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

danielpugh said:


> I can't help think that perhaps the sensor isn't submerged in the water perhaps. Would that explain things i.e. it's taking the temp of air in void (guessing as the difference seems very strange)


 Week end work!


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

pinky said:


> Hm, do you have one of those new cup trays that are laser cut sheet metal? Or is the top of your machine covered?
> 
> The brew boiler should be fully saturated and should be pressurized during pre-infusion so even if there is an air bubble in there it can't be that big that the air temp would be substantially different than the water temp.


 No, I wish - emailed Paolo to see if I could buy one, but no reply. Standard/original grilles. Top is covered with cups, but not in any specifically insulating way 😉


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh I wonder, if you would be able to test by feeding from the supply pitcher and observe if there any changes in the pattern ? Thx


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh I wonder, if you would be able to test by feeding from the supply pitcher and observe if there any changes in the pattern ? Thx


 I could, but very sceptical it would make any difference. Pipe goes into reservoir, or I fill reservoir using a jug - it's the same water from the same location. The same as if I was to use a garden hose from the sink. Think I missing something - what's your thinking/theory?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh Got you.

I have no idea how plumbing works, as I don't use plumbing.

So, sorry. It's not relevant.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

So the good news (tentative) is that I think fixed. Not completely sure what did it, but one of...

1. Wiggled the pipes in the reservoir/tank- specifically raised the sensor so to trigger more liquid in (to avoid air getting sucked in). Also pushed the pump hook/lever behind the main lever to trigger the pump. Unsure if above actually did anything or not, but is one of the two things. Then I...

2. Restarted it (green main power switch).

Results - Since that time the heating element stops at 92, and pulses a bit around 94 and 95. Peak temp at about 96.5 after a minute after pulling a typical shot shot sized flush.

(Using settings of @Like Medium Strong Coffee)


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@danielpugh Sounds like it might have been some air in the brew boiler....slowing down the probes response? Glad it's OK now.


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

@DavecUK Do you know if the san marco v lever would work on our evos and if so, how can I get ahold of one in walnut?


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh Great ! Good job and well done. Some photos of what you did will help others. Thx


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh Great ! Good job and well done. Some photos of what you did will help others. Thx


 Not much to photo unfortunately. Lifted one of the pipes which has a plumbed fill sensor, which triggered the pump to come on. Then wiggled the others to make sure they were low in the water, and not twisted.

Then pushed down the small lever behind the big lever which also triggers the pump.

Just glad it's working as expected, (and that I don't have to go inside)..


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

gus6464 said:


> @DavecUK Do you know if the san marco v lever would work on our evos and if so, how can I get ahold of one in walnut?


 Should do....but I have no idea where you can get one.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@danielpugh Your set point is 96C, I assume.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @danielpugh Your set point is 96C, I assume.


 Yep that's right.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Here you go: https://www.avola-coffeesystems.de/la-san-marco-handhebel-v-griff-m18x1-5-inkl-kontermutter/8140966

Thread seems to be the right size but how well will the handle align is a different question.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

pinky said:


> Here you go: https://www.avola-coffeesystems.de/la-san-marco-handhebel-v-griff-m18x1-5-inkl-kontermutter/8140966


 That looks really cool...I might enquire locally (in Oz)...failing that, is anyone interested in a group purchase from the company in the link?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

pinky said:


> Here you go: https://www.avola-coffeesystems.de/la-san-marco-handhebel-v-griff-m18x1-5-inkl-kontermutter/8140966
> 
> Thread seems to be the right size but how well will the handle align is a different question.


 @pinky That's why it has a lock nut at the bottom....you screw it in almost all the way, get it in the right position, and lock it there by tightening the nut.

If you do get it...i'd love to see a photo of the machine with it installed


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Ah, didn't realize it was a lock nut, it looks like the stock handle end. In any case, I like the stock handle better 😀


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

pinky said:


> Ah, didn't realize it was a lock nut, it looks like the stock handle end. In any case, I like the stock handle better 😀


 It reminds me of four candles.


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> It reminds me of four candles.


 Ah!!! Classic Two Ronnies....still funny today.


----------



## pipedreams86 (Mar 12, 2021)

Hey all, took the plunge and ordered an Evo Friday, Maria from ACS said it should arrive early to mid January, super excited to get it and start using it!

I'm wondering; I have the Ikea Bror cart and from what I read online it should hold 70kgs. Do you all think that it would work ok for the Evo and be stable enough?

From what I can tell the Evo is approx 50kgs? Don't want to put it on something that isn't up to the task! I have another Bror cart with the decent machine on which has worked really well for it, but the DE1 is so light even in it's countersink bracket that i don't think that really compares to the Evo weight etc.

This is my first lever machine and not sure what to expect but excited to learn!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pipedreams86 I reckon the Evo is 35Kg ish no more.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Welcome to the fold @pipedreams86! Two month wait is nothing compared to what some of us had to endure 😂

I don't know the Bror cart, but my Evo Leva sits on a Bekvam cart from the same company. If your cart is of similar strength, you should be fine. If not, the Bekvam model is pretty good value and sized almost perfectly for the Evo (I did apply four layers of linseed oil as it comes without any finish).


----------



## pipedreams86 (Mar 12, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> Welcome to the fold @pipedreams86! Two month wait is nothing compared to what some of us had to endure 😂
> 
> I don't know the Bror cart, but my Evo Leva sits on a Bekvam cart from the same company. If your cart is of similar strength, you should be fine. If not, the Bekvam model is pretty good value and sized almost perfectly for the Evo (I did apply four layers of linseed oil as it comes without any finish).


 Thanks so much! Super excited to get it, and like you said 2 months isn't so bad&#8230;feels like it right now though lol

Appreciate the advice on the cart, seems like the Bror should be ok for the Evo by the sounds of things&#8230;the mentions of force with the lever etc had me a little nervous but they are heavy duty carts and I haven't had an issue at all with having multiple heavy grinders on my current cart alongside the Decent etc&#8230;

I'm now trying to workout what tamper to get for it? As I am only setup for 58mm here, with a Puqpress Mini etc. I saw someone on YouTube was using a Bravo tamper with the Evo. I'm not great/consistent with tamping hence the Puqpress. Would you all recommend a Puqpress for the Evo, or something like the Bravo?

I am ordering some B plus puck screens today for both the Decent and the Evo&#8230;am I right in thinking the Evo would use the 53.4mm screens? They also have 53.7mm.

Apologies if these questions shouldn't be asked in this thread, I can move them to a new discussion. Also apologies if these have been asked already, I am slowly reading through this thread from the start. Trying to occupy myself with getting the accessories sorted while I wait impatiently


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

The Evo requires a 54.4 to 55mm tamper depending on which basket you use (For the stock ones, a 54.4mm tamper fits perfectly; with IMS baskets, a 54.7 to 55.0 tamper is recommended -using the larger sizes if you want a very tight fit which might prevent the tamper from reaching the bottom of the baskets in some cases).

People have bought the Torr 54.4 and IMS BAAC64.4F with positive repots

The self leveling Bravo tamper (with its standard 54.7mm base, or 54.9-55.0 custom bases) as well as JoeFrex/Concept-Art 55mm base are reported to work well with IMS baskets.

As to Puqpresses, I'm not sure they are available for the Evo sized baskets.


----------



## pipedreams86 (Mar 12, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> The Evo requires a 54.4 to 55mm tamper depending on which basket you use (For the stock ones, a 54.4mm tamper fits perfectly; with IMS baskets, a 54.7 to 55.0 tamper is recommended -using the larger sizes if you want a very tight fit which might prevent the tamper from reaching the bottom of the baskets in some cases).
> 
> People have bought the Torr 54.4 and IMS BAAC64.4F with positive repots
> 
> ...


 Thank you for this info! I think I'll go with the Bravo and see how that works

Do you think I should order the 53.4mm B plus screen?


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I'll let other people chime in, but the Bplus 54.3 and 54.7 screens should fit the stock baskets (No-one has reported success or failure here yet, AFAIK), and the Bplus 55 is reported to work well with the IMS 32 baskets with up to a 20g dose (it might also fit the smaller IMS 26 basket although it's been too tight for some and dose is said to be limited to 17g with it)


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I'm using 55mm bplus with the tiny ims basket. I dose 17g into it.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Denis S said:


> I'm using 55mm bplus with the tiny ims basket. I dose 17g into it.


 I dont know where you all got scared of the tight fits. You want a tight fit or else the water will go at the edge where you have no bplus covering the puck. Then you get a lovely donut extraction, doh.


----------



## pipedreams86 (Mar 12, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I dont know where you all got scared of the tight fits. You want a tight fit or else the water will go at the edge where you have no bplus covering the puck. Then you get a lovely donut extraction, doh.


 That makes sense Denis&#8230;so would it be best if I order the 54.7mm screens for the stock baskets?


----------



## OneMoreEspresso (Oct 15, 2021)

Hi guys, after that little initial scare at the start it's been working beautifully over that few days, I just wanted to check this sound is normal.

just uploaded the video to Dropbox

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pr6pjqh9ackv8hf/AABb_yB9c8T-UDyo2SGboOuua?dl=0


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I've just listened to your video. In the first part I hear the spring noise (which you could also hear if you moved the lever with the machine turned off), and then the gear pump. Mine makes similar noises as I haven't bothered to try to fix the spring noise yet.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@OneMoreEspresso Check a part of the gear pump isn't touching metal, although the noise is after it's been running for a short while?

Or is might just be for some reason the pump is starved of water a little because of a kink or restriction in the tube from the tank to the pump.

It's hard to tell from a phone Microphone...does it make this sound every time?


----------



## OneMoreEspresso (Oct 15, 2021)

I can't see anything touching or blocked the sounds is hard to pinpoint in the small space. 
I've not had it long enough to know if this is the sound it should make or if somethings wrong. I could be overthink it after it's transit but I'd rather check that ignore something that maybe a problem.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/pr6pjqh9ackv8hf/AABb_yB9c8T-UDyo2SGboOuua?dl=0


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Try it with the top off..I can't see anything obvious? Get a wooden spoon (or a length of wood/dowel) and place the end on the pump, push lightly and see if you can feel the vibration (you need wood not plastic). Pump is only 24V...other things are 240V though (e.g. pressure stat terminals)!

Check no bubbles moving through the inlet tube....

Might be normal sound I didn't have a production machine and mine is in the workshop awaiting parts.


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Any suggestions for a pump replacement that's quieter? I know ACS selected this one for price/performance ratio but I don't mind paying more and replacing if need if I can get the noise down.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

pinky said:


> Any suggestions for a pump replacement that's quieter? I know ACS selected this one for price/performance ratio but I don't mind paying more and replacing if need if I can get the noise down.


 You could investigate the fluidotech one, with the miniature pump head as on the Crem 1 2B LFPP, you will need to reduce the voltage to 18-20V so it runs very quiet. it's not a trivial task, it has to fit, and you have to have the right pump. There will be other options, but you would have to investigate those.

Gear pumps make that specific noise, especially when trying to fill the group in seconds.... that pump has to get almost 100ml in the group in 3 or so seconds. which is 15-20 litres per minute! or 900 to 1200 litres per hour, in a small package. Something like the pump below, but like I said you will have to reduce the voltage a tad, which slows it down to get it to be quiet at unrestricted flow...without the group taking too long to fill! I can't remember the cost, but I think you would find it costing about £280 If you have an Evo, I will be interested in how you get on, especially how you handle the voltage reduction.

https://www.fluidotech.it/en/products/technologies/rotary-vane-pumps/ga-series/


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Speaking off if you want to do mods:

you can simply buy a DC dimmer to regulate the voltage in the pump since it's a variable rpm by voltage pump.

Or even easier you can add a dc-dc converter to a lower voltage from 24 V to let's say 16-18V. Sure this will deliver a much lower flowrate, so instead of the 4-5 sec to reach pressure it would take 6-8 sec.

But if you really want to improve the noise, I would suggest a dampening material, or even a cage for the pump with insulated material.

Hell if you want to go ever further, you can install a wifi dimmer and have it controlled from your phone to a certain voltage. Like 18V-20V-24V.


----------



## OneMoreEspresso (Oct 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> Try it with the top off..I can't see anything obvious? Get a wooden spoon (or a length of wood/dowel) and place the end on the pump, push lightly and see if you can feel the vibration (you need wood not plastic). Pump is only 24V...other things are 240V though (e.g. pressure stat terminals)!
> 
> Check no bubbles moving through the inlet tube....
> 
> Might be normal sound I didn't have a production machine and mine is in the workshop awaiting parts.


 thanks @DavecUK there is a clear vibration coming from here there is vibrating above and below but this is where it's the strongest.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK @OneMoreEspresso

That second noise appears distinct and lasted longer to me. You get a spring sound until the lever is cocked, while the pump noise lasts for 2-3s perhaps?


----------



## OneMoreEspresso (Oct 15, 2021)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee the lower tone of the motor sounds fine it's the high pitch that is concerning me. If that's the same sound that others with this machine have that's fine I've only had it a few days and I'd not noticed it at the first


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Hi All,

I ordered my Leva with the Minima steam arm and the short water arm, and also a spare set of the Vostok arms as I couldn't decide which I preferred.

The Minima steam arm is not cool-touch, and after slightly burning my arm a couple of times putting cups on top, I decided to have a look at it and the Vostok steam arm, which didn't come with a rubber grip.

Indeed, the Vostok arm uses an internal teflon tube, making it relatively cool touch. More interesting, the fittings on either end of the Minima steam arm have the same tube on them that enables them to be used with a teflon tube, and there is room in the Minima steam arm tube to use the teflon tubing if you want.

So, a short length of teflon tubing with nominal ID of 4.35mm, and my Minima steam arm is now (relatively) cool touch too.

The water Vostok arm is different, as it uses fittings on the outlet that go over the teflon tube OD. And I haven't yet managed to get the fittings off the short water arm to see what they are like.....


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)




----------



## longpvo (Jul 21, 2021)

I don't mean to hijack this thread but is there any modern lever machine of this caliper but with a 58mm group? The LM Leva X 1 Group is way out of my budget, not a fan of LR as well. I know there's only Strega and Profitec 800 but they don't have modern pre-infusion and group heating management, I think. I just love the plethora of basket choices for 58mm, from E&B Lab Superfine low flow to Pullman high flow 😁 and a bunch of puck prep accessories I already owned.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@longpvo I feel your pain! But I think there must be a reason why LM went down the smaller pf route. To answer your question, the Strega has group heater cartridges but no other bells and whistles. I am not aware of any other lever that offers the dual boiler plus 3 pid options that the Evo has as it was designed from scratch last October. The group LM use, once it has been customised to the Evo standard costs around 60% more than the 'Bosco' style group favoured by many other lever machines


----------



## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

OneMoreEspresso said:


> thanks @DavecUK there is a clear vibration coming from here there is vibrating above and below but this is where it's the strongest.
> 
> View attachment 61357


 You might need to be careful with the pencil as the graphite core is a conductor.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

So who wants to do the voltage mod? with a converter 24-24V DC stepped down to something like 18V.

Or let's talk about a solution to insulate the pump with something so we take the sound going upwards into the cup tray vents.


----------



## OneMoreEspresso (Oct 15, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> You might need to be careful with the pencil as the graphite core is a conductor.


 @John Yossarian dont worry it's a hex key with a rubber sleeve


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Denis S said:


> So who wants to do the voltage mod? with a converter 24-24V DC stepped down to something like 18V.
> 
> Or let's talk about a solution to insulate the pump with something so we take the sound going upwards into the cup tray vents.


 I think insulation would be more effective in this case. I was thinking about thick wall styrofoam cylinders to encase the whole thing. Or do you know of some other material that would be more effective at dampening the vibrations?

Edit: Something like this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/143162617639 with a lid maybe?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@OneMoreEspresso It really sounds like metal to metal vibration...Is the metal panel vibrating, pinch it between your fingers and run the pump...see if the sound is different?











longpvo said:


> I don't mean to hijack this thread but is there any modern lever machine of this caliper but with a 58mm group? The LM Leva X 1 Group is way out of my budget, not a fan of LR as well. I know there's only Strega and Profitec 800 but they don't have modern pre-infusion and group heating management, I think. I just love the plethora of basket choices for 58mm, from E&B Lab Superfine low flow to Pullman high flow 😁 and a bunch of puck prep accessories I already owned.


 No there is not. Also the 58mm group is the much cheaper group:



It costs the factories half as much to use.


it has poor water management in the piston (using the 2 top seals) as a primitive valve


More needy for lubrication (because of the above point water washout)


2 of the 3 seals pass the inlet port, reducing seal life (nibbling), on the Evo, the seal never passes the inlet port


Points 2, 3 and 4 considerably reduce seal life and increase lubrication requirements


the piston assembly is brass not stainless


the bore sleeve is chrome plated brass, not stainless.


You can't fit a pressure gauge to show pressure through the entire shot


You can't have active electric PID controlled group heating


There is no shortage of choice of baskets which will fit the Evo group, and it is superior in every way. I would not let that need for 58mm affect your decision.


----------



## longpvo (Jul 21, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> No there is not. Also the 58mm group is the much cheaper group:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Thanks Dave for the mechanical explanations. I assume the LM Leva X is a beast on its own for 58mm lever then.

I have another technical question regarding pre-infusion with a rotary pump in recent lever machines.

1. Do you modulate the rotary pump power to reach certain flow rate?

or

2. Do you adjust the rotary pump OPV so that it let off the excess pressure?

Is there any advantage to a spring lever that can restrict flow rate ON THE FLY during the pre-infusion stage (if it will ever exist)? So like a paddle/needle implementation during pre-infusion then a full column of water smash through the puck of a lever during extraction.

Also I saw some sneak peaks of the Nurri Leva SA, I am not too familar with lever machines to begin with but do the two paddles Nurri add are just for group flushing? Why can't you do so simply on say the ACS Evo. Nurri uses the same LSM group I believe.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

So today was the clean under the machine day, aka move the damn heavy unit to deep clean the counter and the backsplash. This will be a long post.

I like the inside, it's clean, has plenty of space, like the cable management too. What to do:

- take off by putting tape on the metal and unscrew both taps for water and steam, deep clean the metal shavings and reapply grease.

- take out grouphead shower, gasket and c-clip an deep clean them. Grease the inside of the bore, grease the c-clip too cause it rusts.

- then insulate the pump with some material (this did almost nothing btw)

- adjust the pressurestat to 4 bar- (this makes me grind finer) I dont like it, will go back to 1-1.5 bar (was 2 from factory)

- then pull some shots

I forgot one important step, because I prepare my own water, I deep clean the water tank and the silicone hoses with vinegar or baking soda, so the slime wont survive.

https://streamable.com/arq3v5


----------



## OneMoreEspresso (Oct 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @OneMoreEspresso It really sounds like metal to metal vibration...Is the metal panel vibrating, pinch it between your fingers and run the pump...see if the sound is different?
> 
> 
> View attachment 61397


 Thanks @DavecUK the panel isn't touching (attached birds eye view image). Only vibration I can feel is from the connector however when pressed/grippled the noise doesn't dissipate.

I did notice the when the pump was slightly engaged there was no sharp sound. See video

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tjvabivqvowlpns/Video 25-11-2021%2C 12 33 27.mov?dl=0


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

longpvo said:


> Thanks Dave for the mechanical explanations. I assume the LM Leva X is a beast on its own for 58mm lever then.
> 
> I have another technical question regarding pre-infusion with a rotary pump in recent lever machines.
> 
> ...


 1. It depends on the machine and the pump

2. No, rotary pumps have a balanced bypass to regulate pressure unless they are speed controlled ones (usually DC)

3. I don't think so...YMMV...I also don't know what "smashing" through the puck means.

4. One side is to release the pressure, rather than wait for the lever to reach the top of it's travel (might save a few seconds., the ther side is to run the pump so it acts like a pumped machine.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@OneMoreEspresso I really don't know, contact ACS, send them a link to the Video, let them advise as to the best course of action.


----------



## OneMoreEspresso (Oct 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @OneMoreEspresso I really don't know, contact ACS, send them a link to the Video, let them advise as to the best course of action.


 Thanks for your help @DavecUK I emailed Paolo a day or two ago and waiting to hear back. I'll post the feedback in here incase incase it can help anyone else


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

longpvo said:


> I don't mean to hijack this thread but is there any modern lever machine of this caliper but with a 58mm group? The LM Leva X 1 Group is way out of my budget, not a fan of LR as well. I know there's only Strega and Profitec 800 but they don't have modern pre-infusion and group heating management, I think. I just love the plethora of basket choices for 58mm, from E&B Lab Superfine low flow to Pullman high flow 😁 and a bunch of puck prep accessories I already owned.


 Re. the Strega, it does have a heated group, the only domestic machine I know of with one. In its standard form this is somewhat let down by a thermoswitch with a 10 degree dead band, resulting in substantial fluctuations in the group temperature. It is relatively easy to put a PID on the group heaters, and achieve a very high level of stability and adjustability of the group temperature.

Downsides are that it is still an HX machine, with the usual issues of water in the HX getting too hot. But the group temperature remains stable with the PID, and a quick flush is all that is required to clear out the hot water in the HX.

You can also replace the pressurestat on the main boiler with a PID, which gives you control and adjustability but it has less overall impact on the brewing, where the group mass compared to the small amount of water makes that the main determinant of brew temperature. Also harder to do than the PID on the group, which is very straight forward.

As for pre-infusion, I also tried putting a dimmer control on the vibe pump on my Strega. It wasn't entirely successful - it achieved lower pressures, but at the expense of considerably lower filling flow. I used a remote controlled triac dimmer in the end which enabled me to remotely adjust the pressure on the fly, so I could fill with higher flow then drop the pressure.

But none of these mods are needed on the Evo....


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Elephantoplasty strega does not have twin boilers, so PID on boiler won't allow you have it cool enough unless you don't intend to steam?


----------



## SL01 (May 28, 2021)

longpvo said:


> Thanks Dave for the mechanical explanations. I assume the LM Leva X is a beast on its own for 58mm lever then.
> 
> I have another technical question regarding pre-infusion with a rotary pump in recent lever machines.
> 
> ...


 @longpvo Once you taste the espresso from the Evo, your questions will fade away fast. It did for me - the years of research into who and what before laying eyes on @DavecUK's video of the Vostok prototype seem a distant and irrelevant memory.

Since my Evo landed, I've never had to adjust the firmware settings, or to fix anything, or even once thought about what LM's coming out next or how to improve on the Evo to keep it abreast with the competition. Instead, I get a sinfully good mouthful of crema and a huge grin, and a thoroughly delightful "thank you" from my darling wife every morning. The Evo just delivers in ways I had never imagined possible in a machine we can use and keep at home with minimum fuss.

The Evo is an espresso drinker's dream machine. It's not about more pressure or temperature intervention like paddles and needle valves, or artistic design in swoopy panels of fancy woods, or anything else. It sports only what's really necessary to get the job done the best possible way, in a hydraulics- mechanics- and electronics-complex that is executed simply and masterfully. I would venture to say there is nothing on the Evo that does not need to be there, or that anything serves any other purpose than to deliver the best drink in the cup.

That is what the Evo is. And if that is what you want, it will deliver. Wait, yes. The occasional fix, sure. The drink in the cup is worth it a thousand times over. And that check I almost wrote to LM for the GS3 MP is the literally the biggest near miss of my life.

Thanks again, @DavecUK and @Paolo_Cortese!


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @Elephantoplasty strega does not have twin boilers, so PID on boiler won't allow you have it cool enough unless you don't intend to steam?


 True - by flushing you can reduce the brew water temperature from the HX, but the limitation of all HX machines is the inherent uncertainty and variability of the actual brew water temperature.....


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

It's a long post. Please bear with me, if anyone is going to read through this.

*Why does the brew temp jumps from 101C to 102C? *😊

We have tweaked the brew boiler setting extensively.

1) Our current stat for the brew boiler are - 0.2, 0,37 and 62 for P, I, D and B respectively.

2) The base set ups :

Kp 2.0, Ki 0.04, Kd = 5.0, B 5

3) We held them at 0.7,0.03,20,50 for a long time.

The tweaks from 3 to 1 helps marginally, while from 2 to 3 was massive. We ignore the initial warm up from the cold start. The ambient temperature is typically > 18C as the heater would have up in the morning. We have always seen the brew starting at around 19C-21C.

a) In the case of 1 and 3, we see two distinct behaviours of the brew after a shot is pulled or the group is flushed.

b) For the brew temp <100C, the overshoot is typically 0.7C-0.8C.

c) If >100.5, the overshoot can be as high as 2.2C and the average overshoot is ~1.2-1.5C.

d) Considering the current brew settings at 1) we think the temp reaching the set point after a flush or the shot is pulled is a bit sluggish - P and D. We need to check the time (again) the boiler takes with different settings before pushing one or a combination of the parameters higher. We are conscious of the impact on the overshoot, though.

In the case of '_c', _we are often surprised that the *temp jumps a clean 1C from 101C-102C. This isn't a one-off. *It happens regularly and not every time. It always drifts down by 0.1 slowly. *We do not think this jump is a bug. If it is, it should happen every time.*

Our brew settings have moved a lot from our base settings. This jumpy pattern is consistent across all the settings, which we have experimented so far.

*Has anyone of the other users observed it? Let me know please. *

Are they negatives? *No*, not even by any stretch of imagination. It's a top class machine, and never disappoints even if the puck preparation is bad or the beans have become stale. We wouldn't trade it for anything else.

Just *nit-picking, *as it can be a tad inconvenient when we pull two shots in the working mornings , especially when the overshoot is in excess of 1.2C. Because, it takes a few minutes for it to hit the set point and the puck is ready for the second shot. 😊

Thx for reading!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee it is an 800ml boiler, the probe is at the top, water heats from the bottom, cold water enters at the top...I think it's pretty much impossible to try and get the PID to do any better than that. Considering you have the group PID....the effect of that small variation of the brew boiler is non-existent.

Many machines you think do better, don't and display in 1C increments, some don't tell you about overshoots so they're set super aggressive and look like their doing a fantastic job, others only show you the set temp. The only way to do it would be to have mutliple probes and take an average...it would look better, but wouldn't make any difference.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK

I did make it clear it is nit-picking! 😊

I'm puzzled though, why the brew boiler overshoots in a very few cases only. If it does, setting the B higher solves it.

That's what makes me ponder what's it different in machines like mine? is it the environment, altitude, ambient temp or something else? I do think it is something local (or local to the machine).

It's the analytical mind, which keeps pushing me to search / understand the why? This is like the experimental flat / rising profile shots, which till day, surprises me.

May be, I will never figure out. 😂



DavecUK said:


> Considering you have the group PID....the effect of that small variation of the brew boiler is non-existent.


 I no longer keep 8C between the group and the brew.

Thx for your observations Dave. Much appreciated.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee Sadly because my Test bed had a group heater fail within 3 days (because the group was 6+ years old, and one heater didn't fit properly because of it's age)...plus other slight differences like no bottom plate, much more airflow. I couldn't come up with great PID settings. So it's down to all of you with production machines.

I do think 6-8C is all you need between brew boiler and group and i'm leaning towards 6, of course with only 1 group heater active, my test bed only had 50% of the group heating capacity of a production machine, another reason I had to guesstimate. Unlike you guys, I had to wait almost 1 hour for my group to warm up, not 15 minutes.

The testbed is simply taking up space in my workshop, until Paolo sends me parts to fix it if ever. I need a new bottom group half with properly fitting heating elements. I need to fix a leak as well as remove a capacitor.. Any one of those jobs requires removal of both boilers on the test bed, because it's different. Hence the wait to do it all at once.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK I am absolutely sure @Paolo_Cortese will send you the parts to fix them all in one go.

Tbh, the ACS should ship a production machine to you. It's in their interest to do it because any improvements and enhancements can be effective _if and only if _the testing is done on a production machine.

Re-the users figuring out the PID settings, folks may not do it for a variety of reasons - example, a lack of time, not interested in technicality, just want to enjoy a good cuppa, the delta improvements from tweaked PID settings can be identified only by super tasters like you (Dave) and not like us. I am experimenting, when I can, as it makes me curious to understand why machines like mine behave a little differently. That's all.

In fact, we haven't paid much attention to see if the temp overshoot on the service's and group's.

My typical brew temp, at the max, is 6C from the group head's. It's pretty rare I set at 7C. I think one of the Evo users has 5C difference and is very happy with it.

Thx Dave!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> @DavecUK I am absolutely sure @Paolo_Cortese will send you the parts to fix them all in one go.


 He probably will, if he remembers...I'm just not sure what year I will get them in.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@DavecUK Doubt, he will forget. He knows how critical it is for his business. The more likely reasons are parts scarcity and backlog of customer orders. 😊


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

@Like Medium Strong Coffee, the behaviour you describe sounds pretty similar to the behaviour I described on October 22 re. the brew boiler when set at 102C and the temperature whilst cooling jumping straight from 102.2C to 101.0C without any increments in between, and resulting in fluctuations of about 2.5C between low and high, and 1.5C overshoot.

I am currently running my brew boiler at 100C, and it is more stable using the same PID settings as used with the behaviour I described on Oct 22. Set at 100C, heater kicks in once briefly at 99.8, and the temp climbs to 101.0C, giving a total range of 1.2C and a 1.0C overshoot. Which in my mind is fine, and preferable to the 2.5C range, 1.5C overshoot, I described on Oct 22. Although I think probably neither fluctuation ranges compromise the great espresso outcomes, and so I agree, this is really nitpicking.

It does however make me wonder whether there is some software bug that makes the temperature reporting between 101 and 102C a bit erratic, and which consequently makes it hard for the PID to maintain the same temperature stability when the temperature is set around 102C.


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@Elephantoplasty Interesting you observed a similar pattern. However, I do not think it is a bug as it doesn't happen every time. It happens regularly.

In our case, the jump is on the way up and haven't seen it in the reverse direction.

This overshoot when set above 100.5 in our case, is one of the reasons the brew boiler is never set in excess of 6C from the group as 1C excess is fine. Furthermore, we don't see the need to set above group + 6C, while we might even experiment group + 4 to 6 C.

Thx


----------



## Abdulaziz (Oct 30, 2021)

hello fellas .. count an admire & future owner here 🖐, i have placed my ordered the Evo leva two weeks ago, thanks to my friend @MW11 .

can't really wait to put my hands on it !! i have been flipping pages and i am seeing a lot of amazing experience, hoping one day i can share my thoughts here also 🤞


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

Welcome aboard @Abdulaziz!. And congratulations - I can't imagine anyone not finding the Evo Leva a wonderful machine. I hope the wait isn't too long....


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Abdulaziz Welcome to the forum, sure you will love the machine, we look forward to some photos/videos when you get it.


----------



## pipedreams86 (Mar 12, 2021)

Hey all, in anticipation of the Evo arriving in Jan, I have found & ordered IMS baskets, b plus, bravo tamper etc for 54mm. The only thing I think remaining is finding a way to use my Honne grinder with the smaller portafilter.

Looking for a dosing funnel or tumbler that would reduce the Honne bottom funnel to the smaller portafilter size if anyone knows of something like this? Or someone who could make one?

thanks!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

pipedreams86 said:


> Looking for a dosing funn


 @Norvin


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

If you're looking for alternatives to Norwin's market leading proposition 😉, Orphan Espresso's (OE) "IPANEMA Tall Aluminum Portafilter Dosing Cylinder" in the 53/54 size is said to work well (https://www.orphanespresso.com/OE-IPANEMA-Tall-Aluminum-Portafilter-Dosing-Cylinder_p_2540.html) , and the short wall 54.7mm dosing ring from Bravo is said to be "amazing" to accommodate a 58mm dosing cup (with the choice of 88mm or 67mm funnel OD). See https://www.bravocoffee.com.br/funil- for all the Bravo variants available

There also seems to be a dosing ring with an external lip rather than an internal one and with a 55mm internal diameter so that the puck can be tamped without removing the ring: https://www.tidaka.net/de/product.html?q=%2Fde%2Ftrichter%2Fboard-trichter-la-san-marco.html&info=1264 which sells from €39 plus P&P


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

The honne funnel fits only 58mm openings. Talk to that guy who 3d prints on the Romanian forum and he can make you a dosing ring that fits a 54mm basket (from dalla corte) and has a top opening of a 58mm dosing ring.


----------



## pipedreams86 (Mar 12, 2021)

Thanks as always for the advice! Got a funnel sorted with Gilberto to go with the other accessories I ordered from him thanks for info @Eiffel&#8230;will be PMing Norvin to discuss too, and maybe a piston tool too if he's still making them&#8230;impatient for January to come


----------



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> @longpvo I feel your pain! But I think there must be a reason why LM went down the smaller pf route. To answer your question, the Strega has group heater cartridges but no other bells and whistles. I am not aware of any other lever that offers the dual boiler plus 3 pid options that the Evo has as it was designed from scratch last October. The group LM use, once it has been customised to the Evo standard costs around 60% more than the 'Bosco' style group favoured by many other lever machines


 If the LM group is so good, why does it need to be customised ? and surely the Evo hasn't been designed from scratch, It's just an amalgamation of different espresso machine parts ?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

iroko said:


> If the LM group is so good, why does it need to be customised ? and
> 
> 2. surely the Evo hasn't been designed from scratch, It's just an amalgamation of different espresso machine parts ?


 1. Something can be good, or even excellent, but still not do what you want it to, to the standard you want it to. Things can always be made better, it's just a matter of cost. Or you take the standard thing and accept its limitations. A Rally car is often good car made "better" for rallying.

The customisation gave us a pressure gauge that works throughout the shot, stainless liner, stainless piston, active group heating. Much of it necessary for the twin boiler design to work well. Using a thermpsyphon would have been sub optimal.

2. Unbelievably, you can't just get a box of components, shake them up watch them assemble themselves into a machine, grab a standard preprogrammed programmed motherboard off the shelf and expect it all to work with 2 pid boilers and a PID controlled customised group. The Alpha was hand assembled on the fly....test of concept. The entire production machine was made in CAD, down to the last nut and bolt....then built. Plus many components used had to be assessed and tested for suitability.

Otherwise, it's like saying this is just an amalgamation of standard bricks....not designed










Or this is simply an amalgamation of standard stencils, standard paint cans and an airbrush.....no design here.


----------



## danielpugh (Oct 26, 2016)

iroko said:


> If the LM group is so good, why does it need to be customised ? and surely the Evo hasn't been designed from scratch, It's just an amalgamation of different espresso machine parts ?


 I'd definitely say that the pressure guage built into the group is very useful customisation.

1. I typically move the cup at 6bar, as it's very consistent.

2. Portafilter sneeze - never been a thing for me as you can see the exact pressure. Also very useful is Paolo's tip of slightly bringing forward the lever which reduces the pressure so you can disengage the portafilter early.

The group cartridges are also seem very good - very fast to warm up!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

This might be a timely point, to mention that there is also a thread on the Evo Leva going on here:

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/vesuvius/1-group-vostok-dual-boiler-lever-or-is-it-t430.html

It is not as widely visited as the thread on cfuk as the forum has far fewer members but now might be the right time to book mark it for future use


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all, thinking about buying a bplus puck screen. From what I can see, the 55 mm seems like it's the only one close to fitting the IMS baskets. Does anyone have the 55 mm screen and can confirm that it fits in the 14/18g IMS basket? Cheers!


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

Chances are that the 55mm bplus will work with your specific IMS 26 basket, but one user of this configuration has reported having to file/sand down the screen so that it comes easily while maintaining a 'perfect fit' with his IMS 26 basket


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Eiffel said:


> Chances are that the 55mm bplus will work with your specific IMS 26 basket, but one user of this configuration has reported having to file/sand down the screen so that it comes easily while maintaining a 'perfect fit' with his IMS 26 basket


 Thanks for the info. Do you know how he sanded down? I'm trying to think how I would do that without a lathe or something to rotate the screen.


----------



## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

No, I don't, but I presume using sand paper and sanding by hand would work fine


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can I just explain to anyone interested in maintaining this thread, that DaveC is no longer logging onto this forum and can now be found here:

https://*********************.com

This is a relaunch of his Tapatalk forum which originally existed for Vesuvius owners across the world. With changes to terms and conditions it has become a different place, so Dave has launched the above forum. They Evo Leva thread will continue there and many have already found their way across to it.


----------



## SideBob (Jan 30, 2018)

OneMoreEspresso said:


> Thanks for your help @DavecUK I emailed Paolo a day or two ago and waiting to hear back. I'll post the feedback in here incase incase it can help anyone else


 Hi OME,

did you receive any feedback?
I have the same sound and behaviour


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

SideBob said:


> Hi OME,
> 
> did you receive any feedback?
> I have the same sound and behaviour


 DavecUK has since moved away from this forum. If you look at the post above yours, there's where he is now, amongst many other members and other V Evo owners.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Wild extraction time on this one 🔥

I timed 17s of pre infusion and 40s for the extraction time (total 57s 🤯)

Is it a melting face extraction? Or is it actually good? We need answers NOW 🤣






I think it depends on the grinder (shorter time with larger flats ..etc).


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

MW11 said:


> Is it a melting face extraction? Or is it actually good? We need answers NOW


 You'll find out that most of the owners of this machine have move away from here. See the post above yours. 🙂


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I will move with my wife from Vienna to Norway next year by the end of february, it is a decision that we found out about (and we like) like 10 days ago, so dont ask why you got so much gear, I didnt plan to move.

I will probably post for sell all my gear, lever, bentwood, niche, that is why I was so quiet about coffee lately, focusing on something else, and my attention for coffee drifted to only roasting/cupping and brewing to be able to evaluate what I roast. My plan is to master roasting and then move only into micro lots of coffees I like to explore.

I already considered moving my stuff to Norway but it's not worth it for many reasons not only because I have to ship them there but also take into account moving them back in 3-4 years whent he contract ends . If someone is interested or knows anyone in Eu or near Vienna, let me know (will post a selling offer soon).

Haven't turned on the machine in 2 weeks and not intending to. Best luck everyone.


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Thats a shame, as your one of its biggest advocates.

Good luck selling


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Denis S said:


> I will move with my wife from Vienna to Norway next year by the end of february, it is a decision that we found out about (and we like) like 10 days ago, so dont ask why you got so much gear, I didnt plan to move.
> 
> I will probably post for sell all my gear, lever, bentwood, niche, that is why I was so quiet about coffee lately, focusing on something else, and my attention for coffee drifted to only roasting/cupping and brewing to be able to evaluate what I roast. My plan is to master roasting and then move only into micro lots of coffees I like to explore.
> 
> ...


 That's such a shame I really valued your expertise and your thoughtful and detailed posts.. good luck and please don't be a stranger?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Shame that you had to sell your gear @Denis S 
I am sure that you'll get the same if not better gear in few years. I wish you luck and safe travels. We can still chat about coffee and machines tho! Can't wait to hear your thoughts on Tim Wendelobe's shop 😂


----------



## steveholt (Jan 6, 2016)

Denis S said:


> I will move with my wife from Vienna to Norway next year by the end of february, it is a decision that we found out about (and we like) like 10 days ago, so dont ask why you got so much gear, I didnt plan to move.
> 
> I will probably post for sell all my gear, lever, bentwood, niche, that is why I was so quiet about coffee lately, focusing on something else, and my attention for coffee drifted to only roasting/cupping and brewing to be able to evaluate what I roast. My plan is to master roasting and then move only into micro lots of coffees I like to explore.
> 
> ...


 Congratulations on the life change. I hope to see your roasting posts appear on some forum. Your contributions here were great to read.



MW11 said:


> Shame that you had to sell your gear @Denis S
> I am sure that you'll get the same if not better gear in few years. I wish you luck and safe travels. We can still chat about coffee and machines tho! Can't wait to hear your thoughts on Tim Wendelobe's shop 😂


 And, your review of Tims shop would be fun. I had plans to visit there back before that pandemic thing. It might be a while before such silly things can be normal again.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

All Black ACS EVO Leva = bought and waiting for delivery 🚚

La San Marco V-Handle = bought and waiting for delivery 📦

https://www.avola-coffeesystems.de/la-san-marco-handhebel-v-griff-m18x1-5-inkl-kontermutter/8140966

@Paolo_Cortese Should be fun 🥳


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

MW11 said:


> All Black ACS EVO Leva = bought and waiting for delivery 🚚
> 
> La San Marco V-Handle = bought and waiting for delivery 📦
> 
> ...


 Let us know how it goes!


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

@MW11, would also really love to know the dimensions on the V-Handle. In particular distance from bottom of nut to top of handle at right angle, and distance from bottom of nut to top of hand-grip.

The lower height of the angle may enable me a push my machine back a bit further under the cupboards above the machine - currently the top of the standard lever is about 40mm too high.

I only need to push the machine back about 40mm.....


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

It looks like a monkey took over Reiss account or he spilled some whiskey into his tee:

These are posted today, I did not expect less from him, knowing how stupid he can be.


----------



## rusty pie (Feb 5, 2021)

Denis S said:


> It looks like a monkey took over Reiss account or he spilled some whiskey into his tee:
> 
> These are posted today, I did not expect less from him, knowing how stupid he can be.
> 
> ...


 I would take up the offer of the side by side challenge, get the free R24, and then resell it. 😀


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Hes very arrogant, but if your dissing his product without using it then hes guna be pissed.

There was a time when the main advocates of the acs where top londinium pushers. Take all of that with a pinch of salt...


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

He got me in the right moment! when I sell/sold all my gear and could not care less about londiniums and espresso machines or gear. 😂

If you swim against the current you die. If you dont update your machine with modern needs you simply die or sell to people who wants a traditional machine (oh wait LR24 has electronics).

1 hour heat time in 2022 is a no go, he has been asked to change stuff for many years, he did nothing, he changed a noisy pressostat after years of complaining. I knew what type of man he is that is why I never considered a Londinium, because of his personality.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

He told me that my Profitec Pro 800 wasn't temp stable because it was a dipper and dippers in general can't be temp stable and the superior Heat exchanger design is more temp stable. He just announced that he's making a dipper Londinium Compact !!!! What happened to dippers are bad? Bashing them in Home-Barista too? Hypocrite disses other products but when it comes to Londinium he changes his words/skin.

you can't simply compare ACS LEVA to Londinium! ACS Leva is a dual boiler lever using heating elements to control the beautiful LA SAN MARCO group head which is temp stable and great for all roast profiles. You actually control the temperature on this amazing machine and adjust it according to the beans you are brewing. Londinium is an outdated Heat exchanger lever with no control over temperature at all (he claims to control temp by adjusting preinfusion pressure!!! What a joke).


----------



## SimonB (Sep 12, 2013)

I've not been paying much attention to the coffee scene online lately but I'm amazed by how petty things seem to have gotten and no that's not specifically aimed at the above commenters, more of a general observation.

Anyway back on topic, I'm considering a new machine but can't really find many/any stores selling this thing?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@SimonB - The best thing you can do is to contact @Paolo_Cortese - That's directly with ACS.

Also, you might be better off here: https://*********************.com, as Paolo is also posting there and DavecUK is posting there too.

Good luck!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

If @Denis S finds the LR24 better than the EVO, I too might sell my EVO. Now that's a fair fight between 2 machines! People say that LR24 is bad with dark roasts! It'll be interesting to hear what Denis have to say about that. May the best machine win 🏆 🥊


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Tainted view as denis doesn't like riess, most dont

So the lr24 has lost before its even started.

Id also take his info with a pinch of salt as hes now bigging up the niche zero.

Sadly coffee seems to have wayyyyyy to many invested interest.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

I don't like Reiss either but they are all products to me and we pay premium for them. I trust that @Denis S's review will be fair to both machines. I wish I could test them both side by side but it'll take me months before passing judgment! @Denis Smight have an advantage of inviting some friends to help him test both machines and speed up the review.
I have a friend from Kuwait who has a LR24 and might buy the Evo Leva in the near future! So more reviews to come (although his reviews are in arabic only 😅. Here's his IG account:

https://instagram.com/coffee.wings_kuw?utm_medium=copy_link )


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Tainted view as denis doesn't like riess, most dont
> 
> So the lr24 has lost before its even started.
> 
> ...


 I dont want to post anything before getting both machines here side by side and trying them for minimum a few days.

If old me 1 year ago would read that I would have believed you but around the summer some of my friends went to Forli at Gardelli's shop and had espresso and brew there. *The espresso was made on niche single dose *single origin expensive beans and La Marzocco Leva 2 group. They told me the espresso is outstanding good and I laughed at them, no way with a Niche a grinder I already had with the Decent and had bad results on light roasts.

So after getting the lever, I went to Gardelli at Forli, and got espresso made on Niche and Leva X. What can I say, if I would not see them grind it on Niche I would never admit or recognise the shot was made on the Niche. It was really good, with huge clarity, acidity, and fruits. No dryness or bad aftertaste.

Then I got back home and got a Niche and tried it on the Leva Evo (not X) with his recipe the same coffee, and I got the same result. Outstanding clean high acidity huge fruit drinks. I then tried it on some other bags of light roasts and it delivers the same. All I know is that it works great with levers, and I dont know why it didn't work on pump machines.

As for reviews, comparison we can only speak after I see two machines here.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Denis S - this is an outstanding result, after all. Hats down to Londinium on taking on the challenge and keeping their word. That's truly commendable.

Also I congratulate @Denis S on hosting the challenge and no doubt, based on what I've seen before, it will be a very objective comparison.

All in the name of coffee. 👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍👍

looking forward to seeing the results!


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

It's a shame some of the debate has turned so nasty. I'm not pointing at anyone in particular. Coffee is such a fun geeky hobby and I've learned so much from some true experts here. Let's all take a chill pill and keep the debate friendly from here on in


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Not nasty when you have some one on social media calling out a company they have never used,

That was the problem with this forum, and most know it, they went out of their way to try and destroy londinium whilst pushing the leva. And the niche to an extent when two of the main posters on this forum are friends with the owner of niche and one helped in the development then you're always going to have a different view on it, i can say this as i owned a niche and didnt like it.

It caused massive problems and $hit stiring from both sides, leading to not one, vut now two more coffee forums. this forum which was the best in the uk has massively suffered and ultimately will probably cease to exist because of it too, just because of too many egos

Thats the last ill say on the matter as its an ever going merry go round with jibe after jibe, theres mote than enough people to buy all coffee machines and grinders


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake I did not really want to have to log on again, but Jake, you speak with such authority whilst at the same time leaving an impression on members with your knowledge of a situation. The problems left this forum, when 17 or so members found themselves banned. Since that happened, does it not strike you as odd how the forum has settled down to the point that there is now no trouble. Does it not strike you as odd that many of those folks were Londinium acolytes?

Niche........I read about this British project in mid 2017. I emailed the company and then had a couple of chats with Martin. I was in hospital in August that year having had surgery when Martin rang me. From that chat, I approached the two Daves. One said the project did not really catch his imagination but since it was British he would chat with them. The other Dave said he was going on holiday and if Niche wanted to speak with him a couple of weeks.........so I introduced DaveC to Niche. Martin and Dave had never met before until Martin drove up with prototypes to Surrey. By the time the other Dave came back, the project was well under way. At the same time, the knocking of the product started.......sound familiar? None of them had seen a Niche but were quite prepared to diss it. I could go on and on and reveal a lot more that you probably are not aware of either, but I choose discretion.

The same tactic was deployed over the launch of the Evo. Not one of the 'knockers' had seen one, yet quite happy were they to get stuck in........why?...........because for the first time since launch in 2012, the status of Londinium was under threat.

The reason three coffee forums exist, is that those banned from here started their own. Then Tait sold CFUK out for the King's shilling. The new owners have a long history of forum purchase. They are not interested in the forum, just the database behind it. So, coffeetime was adapted to fit ********** and here we are.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@Cuprajake I had to smile at this part of your post:

*Not nasty when you have some one on social media calling out a company they have never used, *

So, I remembered reading these comments made by Reiss


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Not a single dollar will enter either one of your bank accounts. So chill and let's witness the Levers Battle 🥊. I've been honest and said it repeatedly that I don't like Reiss (it's a personality thing) but I respect his hard work and the phenomenal FaceTime support that he prides himself to provide. A lot of happy LR24 owners and we owe it to them to see this through! Two top lever machines in a head to head challenge!! Should be fun 🥳. I wonder if we could make an olympics for Levers? May the best pulls win 🥇


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

You wont witness anything, Reiss withdraw his offer, as expected. Instead of people supporting this to make it happen, they went around my back and told Reiss I am selling my gear and moving to Norway. Yes I am moving to Norway in 3-4 months, and the test can still be done as I have all my gear and would have postphone the sell of my lever so I can compare it directly with LR24.

Why do you think I wrote to see both machines here before commenting?


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Well, Reiss isn't a man of his word after all. You said that you're going to move to Norway multiple times on this forum and make no mistake that Reiss watches this thread like a hawk 😂, so he knew that right from the start. I would be threatened too if I were him and will keep a close eye on the competition! I heard that he bad mouths the ACS Leva on his forums without trying one too. Well, enough about the outdated single boiler Heat exchanger lever machine and back to the modern design dual boiler machine.


----------



## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

I really don't understand all the hate here, I own a londinium and am delighted with it, I am interested in the tech behind both the ACS Evo and the LR24. My interactions with Reiss have only ever been positive abd i bought a used machine not brand new.

I really think folk should just move on, this was a much nicer place when all the characters were around but alas for whatever reason they are not anymore!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

All of this is ego, on both sides , inflated flim flam from people to raise profile or their self esteem, or god knows what

One side, whether you like him or not , at least puts his money where his mouth is a put a machine into the wild, at a time when new lever machines were few and far between.

Same with Decent , putts his money where his mouth is and makes something.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Reiss lives in New Zealand and the one who makes LONDINIUMS is Fracino https://www.fracino.com , so I'm not sure what Reiss brings to the table nor where he puts his mouth. Technical support? Reminded me of call centers in India. Same thing with Option-O or Weber they are all designers and salesmen where they promote grinders made in China but non of them did what Reiss did yesterday. Running businesses require level head people who handle themselves well and don't patronize others (especially if the competition makes the better product). I wanted to stop commenting on this cause it keeps derailing the thread which is about the ACS LEVA. If you all non LEVA owners want to talk about another machine then let's do it on another thread. I'll be more than happy to talk machines and compare all specs (I'm interested in other machines too).


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MW11 said:


> Reiss lives in New Zealand and the one who makes LONDINIUMS is Fracino https://www.fracino.com , so I'm not sure what Reiss brings to the table nor where he puts his mouth. Technical support? Reminded me of call centers in India. Same thing with Option-O or Weber they are all designers and salesmen where they promote grinders made in China but non of them did what Reiss did yesterday. Running businesses require level head people who handle themselves well and don't patronize others (especially if the competition makes the better product). I wanted to stop commenting on this cause it keeps derailing the thread which is about the ACS LEVA. If you all non LEVA owners want to talk about another machine then let's do it on another thread. I'll be more than happy to talk machines and compare all specs (I'm interested in other machines too).


 I have no horse in this race , I owned an early l1 sold it , wont own a acs but did own a Vesuvius (sold it)

again for those of us around a few years ago , you know how reiss brought a new lever to market , while living in the uk, yes manufactured at fracino. He put his money where his mouth is by backing, designing a new product to market and taking the risk , I have found reiss helpful and abrupt in equal measures but it's his baby and product and he clearly , roughly or wrongly , is passionate about it and backs it to the hilt. 
it super hard nowadays to make anything in a time of social media and the internet where everyone is an expert and expects to be number one priority all the time ,


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Hey all,

Woke up this morning to my leva having the usual `AL. 11` error, which usually tells me to fill my tank.

After doing so, typically I expect the leva to make the usual pump sound and then a click of an element and the temperature begins to rise. Unfortunately, this morning, this did not happen. It's just stuck at 25c. All other elements appear to be functioning properly.

Anyone faced this issue before?

I tried checking the manual, and it spoke of taking the top off the machine to reveal the boilers, and then to press the little red button on top. I see no button except a bunch of wires.

If a boiler fails to heat, the machine has 2 resettable limit stats: Unplug machine and remove either upper or lower access panel to reset the relevant limit stat, by pressing the little red button in the centre. These are on the top of both boilers. If the problem recurs, contact your dealer for advice.

Currently, maximum annoyed. Caffeine headache and a machine that's less than 3 months that has a non-functioning boiler..... 😠


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

Wiggle the water level sensor tube and restart the machine. If the sensor is touching the wall of the water tank it can get stuck and think the water is not enough to refill the boiler.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

@pinky, didn't do anything. Plus, the A11 signal went away. also if I pull the lever the pump still works and is able to pull water from the tank.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

The issue has been fixed. Don't know how this happened, but at the bottom of the boilers are the electrical connectors. One of the boiler's electrical connectors was out of its socket. After reconnecting the connector, everything worked again.

I'd say to those coming from the future, if you run into the issue that your boiler is not working and the panel is showing heating is on, try these steps.

First take the right side panel off to reveal the electrical board. At the back there are two black SSR(Solid State Relays) that regulate the power to the boilers. There is a LED on each of the SSR's. They should be on when the element in the panel is on. If these LED lights are on, then that means the panel is trying to regulate the power of boilers and everything on that digital end is working. The next step I would suggest involves turning the machine on its side and taking the bottom panel off to expose the boiler wiring. Hopefully the issue is that one of the jumpers has come loose and is not connected. If it is connected and the boiler is not working, then unfortunately you'll probably have to contact ACS about your issue.


----------



## gearosthyd (Apr 15, 2021)

Also the pressure knobs on top of the machine can be black!


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

Mrboots2u said:


> I have no horse in this race , I owned an early l1 sold it , wont own a acs but did own a Vesuvius (sold it)
> 
> again for those of us around a few years ago , you know how reiss brought a new lever to market , while living in the uk, yes manufactured at fracino. He put his money where his mouth is by backing, designing a new product to market and taking the risk , I have found reiss helpful and abrupt in equal measures but it's his baby and product and he clearly , roughly or wrongly , is passionate about it and backs it to the hilt.
> it super hard nowadays to make anything in a time of social media and the internet where everyone is an expert and expects to be number one priority all the time ,


 I don't deny that he brought a lever to the market at that time and that lever had a lot of issues (you can check the coffee machinist posts on coffeesnobs.com.au + Reiss left H-B after some nasty drama at that time too). He worked on his design over the years and now it works (good for him). People who buy nice gear want their gear to be worth what they are paying for (they aren't getting it for cheap nor free) and they have every right to compare PRODUCTS and choose what suits them best (which one actually worth spending premium on). We are derailing the thread which is about the ACS LEVA! Still happy to engage in a more detailed spec comparisons and talk lever espresso machines on another thread. I will be more than happy to make a chart comparing LONDINIUMS LR24 to the ACS LEVA too (in the name of coffee of course).

@gearosthydThanks for sharing! I appreciate all the wealth of knowledge I can harvest from earlier owners. Keep us posted 👍🏻


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MW11 said:


> I don't deny that he brought a lever to the market at that time and that lever had a lot of issues (you can check the coffee machinist posts on coffeesnobs.com.au + Reiss left H-B after some nasty drama at that time too). He worked on his design over the years and now it works (good for him). People who buy nice gear want their gear to be worth what they are paying for (they aren't getting it for cheap nor free) and they have every right to compare PRODUCTS and choose what suits them best (which one actually worth spending premium on). We are derailing the thread which is about the ACS LEVA! Still happy to engage in a more detailed spec comparisons and talk lever espresso machines on another thread. I will be more than happy to make a chart comparing LONDINIUMS LR24 to the ACS LEVA too (in the name of coffee of course).
> 
> @gearosthydThanks for sharing! I appreciate all the wealth of knowledge I can harvest from earlier owners. Keep us posted 👍🏻


 Different forums bash different stuff.

This one hated the Strega , the Aussies and Yanks didnt like the L1 at first , but loved the Strega.

If everyone right ? Nope , are they a function of which large voices on forums have vested interests in different brands probably yes.

Even those that don't have vested interest in promoting something , are usually guilty of consciously or sub consciously trying to promote themselves.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> @Cuprajake I did not really want to have to log on again, but Jake, you speak with such authority whilst at the same time leaving an impression on members with your knowledge of a situation. The problems left this forum, when 17 or so members found themselves banned. Since that happened, does it not strike you as odd how the forum has settled down to the point that there is now no trouble. Does it not strike you as odd that many of those folks were Londinium acolytes?
> 
> Niche........I read about this British project in mid 2017. I emailed the company and then had a couple of chats with Martin. I was in hospital in August that year having had surgery when Martin rang me. From that chat, I approached the two Daves. One said the project did not really catch his imagination but since it was British he would chat with them. The other Dave said he was going on holiday and if Niche wanted to speak with him a couple of weeks.........so I introduced DaveC to Niche. Martin and Dave had never met before until Martin drove up with prototypes to Surrey. By the time the other Dave came back, the project was well under way. At the same time, the knocking of the product started.......sound familiar? None of them had seen a Niche but were quite prepared to diss it. I could go on and on and reveal a lot more that you probably are not aware of either, but I choose discretion.
> 
> ...


 Glen sold the forum to tait&#8230;

They all wanted to make money from it, we live in a capitalist society for better or worse


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

SimonB said:


> I've not been paying much attention to the coffee scene online lately but I'm amazed by how petty things seem to have gotten and no that's not specifically aimed at the above commenters, more of a general observation.
> 
> Anyway back on topic, I'm considering a new machine but can't really find many/any stores selling this thing?


 Long time no see.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

https://youtube.com/shorts/-HMFYj9Y9Yc?feature=share


----------



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

It's a shame that Reiss backed out of the Battle for the OK coffee Corral! But I'm sure we could find a couple of members one with an EvoLeva and one with an LR24, for an espresso shoot out. Any volunteers? The rules would be no egos just bring your taste buds and decide for yourself


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> It's a shame that Reiss backed out of the Battle for the OK coffee Corral! But I'm sure we could find a couple of members one with an EvoLeva and one with an LR24, for an espresso shoot out. Any volunteers? The rules would be no egos just bring your taste buds and decide for yourself


 Ryan might compare the Leva to LR. Keep an eye on HB. Hopefully more reviews to come.


----------



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

MW11 said:


> Reiss lives in New Zealand and the one who makes LONDINIUMS is Fracino https://www.fracino.com , so I'm not sure what Reiss brings to the table nor where he puts his mouth. Technical support? Reminded me of call centers in India. Same thing with Option-O or Weber they are all designers and salesmen where they promote grinders made in China but non of them did what Reiss did yesterday. Running businesses require level head people who handle themselves well and don't patronize others (especially if the competition makes the better product). I wanted to stop commenting on this cause it keeps derailing the thread which is about the ACS LEVA. If you all non LEVA owners want to talk about another machine then let's do it on another thread. I'll be more than happy to talk machines and compare all specs (I'm interested in other machines too).


 Have you ever used an LR24, If not how can you say the competition makes a better product ?

Are you just basing that on the knocking of Londinium on this thread, by various people.


----------



## MW11 (Apr 25, 2021)

iroko said:


> Have you ever used an LR24, If not how can you say the competition makes a better product ?
> 
> Are you just basing that on the knocking of Londinium on this thread, by various people.


 No I haven't used one but I have a friend who has the LR24. He is going to buy the evo Leva soon and will give a full review (I trust his judgment and I will buy his LR24 if it wins! He changes gear very often). I would also love to see a comparison between the LEVA and a GS3 or any high end machine and I will put my evo Leva to the test against the mighty Strietman CT2 (if it loses then I'm going to sell it and find a better machine). I bought 2 high end grinders for espresso, so my machines should be at the same level as those grinders or I'm selling them and keep looking.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

I did not talk to Reiss after his offer, did not question him or anything. He just asked me to send my details on an email for the shipping of a LR24 (for sure I was not expecting a free machine, but a test unit to compare them side by side). Nobody comes out of the blue to give you free expensive stuff, unless you are some big name like James Hoffman and even then you would have to behave with them as with a sponsor with often made advertise publicity. I'm not that type.

He did not even ask me anything to clarify things, he just said that I'm moving to Sweden (it's not sweden it's Norway) and because of that he withdraws his offer. He did not even ask when or how many months left.

* But I just saw today that he blocked me on instagram*, and took away all his comments on my profile. I strongly believed he just wanted some attention on the internet, so he stirs the waters before Xmas so people might buy a few machines from him.

Good stuff that I know exactly how dirty and what time of man he is, so I took the screenshots, and will remind everyone on the forums and discord, and private chat groups what a scumm he really is.

So beware of the rats, and dont make good publicity about Londinium, whatever you are posting about it, let's make it about it's creator, cause if the maker is bad the machine can be good but wont save a business.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Denis S said:


> I did not talk to Reiss after his offer, did not question him or anything. He just asked me to send my details on an email for the shipping of a LR24 (for sure I was not expecting a free machine, but a test unit to compare them side by side). Nobody comes out of the blue to give you free expensive stuff, unless you are some big name like James Hoffman and even then you would have to behave with them as with a sponsor with often made advertise publicity. I'm not that type.
> 
> He did not even ask me anything to clarify things, he just said that I'm moving to Sweden (it's not sweden it's Norway) and because of that he withdraws his offer. He did not even ask when or how many months left.
> 
> ...


 James Hoffman buys the machines he tests

and as for calling someone out for wanting attention in the internet , pot, kettle, black.

I believe you originally bought the Niche to " to make fun of Rao" ( like he cares )

and that if you have a niche you should give up making coffee all together ( great advice, aged well )

It looks like Reiss has spat hi dummy out but hey takes let him who hasn't cast the first dummy.,


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

Mrboots2u said:


> James Hoffman buys the machines he tests
> 
> and as for calling someone out for wanting attention in the internet , pot, kettle, black.
> 
> ...


 buys the machines he tests them with patreon money and then donates them. Anyway I never liked you so I wont bother engaging a conversation with you. You dont own a Leva so I dont see why you post here.

I am in a friendly relation with Rao, and we speak often. He is using the Niche for espresso varieties on the DE from time to time, but for brewing his main is the Forte always was (the niche is only for photos) and now he has the ultra (but he did not test it much cause he was away traveling).

He is not a fan of espresso drinks, that is why you wont see a 1-2 ratio or close to that shot from him, unless it's 80-150g out or a variety of espresso with added water.

I do have a niche now (Second one) and admitted over the internet that I was wrong about it when I had the Decent, but I guess you dont follow my posts enough. I would kindly ask you to step out of this conversation, and if you want to talk to me about my other items (other than ACS Evo and now the Londinium) message me in private.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I have no feeling about you either way but I'll decline pming thanks and ill psot where I want to.


----------



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Denis S said:


> I did not talk to Reiss after his offer, did not question him or anything. He just asked me to send my details on an email for the shipping of a LR24 (for sure I was not expecting a free machine, but a test unit to compare them side by side). Nobody comes out of the blue to give you free expensive stuff, unless you are some big name like James Hoffman and even then you would have to behave with them as with a sponsor with often made advertise publicity. I'm not that type.
> 
> He did not even ask me anything to clarify things, he just said that I'm moving to Sweden (it's not sweden it's Norway) and because of that he withdraws his offer. He did not even ask when or how many months left.
> 
> ...


 Your calling Reiss scum, I'm glad he's not sending you a machine, you wouldn't have given a fair review.


----------



## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

Denis S said:


> I did not talk to Reiss after his offer, did not question him or anything. He just asked me to send my details on an email for the shipping of a LR24 (for sure I was not expecting a free machine, but a test unit to compare them side by side). Nobody comes out of the blue to give you free expensive stuff, unless you are some big name like James Hoffman and even then you would have to behave with them as with a sponsor with often made advertise publicity. I'm not that type.
> 
> He did not even ask me anything to clarify things, he just said that I'm moving to Sweden (it's not sweden it's Norway) and because of that he withdraws his offer. He did not even ask when or how many months left.
> 
> ...


 Oh my word, what a friendly guy you are, as I have said before I have only ever had good interactions with Reiss, I don't agree with how he bit on instagram but you made some aggressive statements about which was the better machine when you have never had an LR24. I would love to see an unbiased comparison of the two machines, but am glad it is not you and your bile doing the comparison. Perhaps Reiss could really see the type of person you are.

Also not sure why you are attacking Mrboots2u who is one of the most valued members on this forum. You really should just chill out.


----------



## Elephantoplasty (Mar 7, 2021)

OK guys, this used to be an interesting forum discussing a great new machine.

If you want to have a pissing contest, then please go somewhere else to do it so that the rest of us can continue to discuss the Vesuvius Evo Leva.

Thanks....


----------



## gus6464 (Jan 29, 2019)

I fail to see how the statement of the Londinium not having the same temperature stability as the Leva be an opinion. That is just a flat out fact because of their designs. Does the Londinium now have magical temperature elves inside of it?

Funny how you never see the representatives of reputable machine companies engage in online tomfoolery with anyone. Business 101.


----------



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

The Londinium doesn't need magical temperature elves as it is designed to be temp stable.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

iroko said:


> The Londinium doesn't need magical temperature elves as it is designed to be temp stable.


 I don't have any of the machines above, so coming as a total outsider, anyone can make claims as above, and it's just natural that coffee machine manufacturers will say their machines are temp stable. Why would they say otherwise?

Unless there's measurement and evidence, how can anyone prove any claims are true or false? The Lelit Elizabeth for example measures the temperature inside the brew boiler, and I trust the manufacturer settings I use give me the right temperature for brewing. But I too, fly blindly.

The V Evo has a pressure gauge and a thermometer on the group, so it can be verified and tuned accordingly.

Besides, what does temperature stability mean? Is it the ability to pull shots one after another without huge temp swings? Or is it the ability for a machine to sit idling at an optimal temperature? E.g.: we all know the E61 on an HX machine is temp stable as far as quick successions are concerned. But we also know that it overheats if left idling or will operate sub-optimally if the rebound time is not respected for a given machine.

As users and consumers of any coffee machine we need factual and measurable evidence, not design claims.


----------



## Denis S (Jul 31, 2020)

iroko said:


> The Londinium doesn't need magical temperature elves as it is designed to be temp stable.


 keep telling that to yourself everyday maybe one day it will become real.


----------



## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

Denis S said:


> keep telling that to yourself everyday maybe one day it will become real.


 Keep enjoying your Evo, for a few more months at least


----------



## Paolo_Cortese (Jul 11, 2014)

I wish to everyone a Merry Christmas.

I would like to say that in a coffee machine there isn't any magician, the result usually is proportionally to what you put inside and not always the result is optimal. Generally if there are a single boiler hx machines and some more expensive dual boiler a reason should be find in order to spent more money to buy a db machine. I don't want to speak of other machines sometimes buy a machine is an emotional decision more than technical question, everyone have a different approach to the question the most important thing is to enjoy always every cup that someone are able to shot especially in this moment. 
enjoy your holidays

Paolo Cortese


----------



## Paolo5 (Sep 29, 2012)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> I wish to everyone a Merry Christmas.
> 
> I would like to say that in a coffee machine there isn't any magician, the result usually is proportionally to what you put inside and not always the result is optimal. Generally if there are a single boiler hx machines and some more expensive dual boiler a reason should be find in order to spent more money to buy a db machine. I don't want to speak of other machines sometimes buy a machine is an emotional decision more than technical question, everyone have a different approach to the question the most important thing is to enjoy always every cup that someone are able to shot especially in this moment.
> enjoy your holidays
> ...


 I agree completely, Paolo!

Thankyou so much for making this wonderful machine. I enjoy using my Evo every day. I can get more magic from this machine than I had hoped for.

I wish you a fantastic Christmas and a wonderful 2022!


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

Paolo_Cortese said:


> I wish to everyone a Merry Christmas.
> 
> I would like to say that in a coffee machine there isn't any magician, the result usually is proportionally to what you put inside and not always the result is optimal. Generally if there are a single boiler hx machines and some more expensive dual boiler a reason should be find in order to spent more money to buy a db machine. I don't want to speak of other machines sometimes buy a machine is an emotional decision more than technical question, everyone have a different approach to the question the most important thing is to enjoy always every cup that someone are able to shot especially in this moment.
> enjoy your holidays
> ...


 Thanks Paolo and team!


----------



## NelisB (Nov 4, 2021)

Hi,

If my pump asks for water, but the reservoir is empty, the pump keeps on running. It doesn't shut off. Is there no safety stop?

Best, Niels


----------



## pinky (Jan 22, 2015)

There is.

The middle tube going in has a little ring at the end. If the ring is touching the wall of the reservoir, it can get stuck in the up position and make the machine think there is water.

Weigh down the middle tube with something rust proof or use a piece of harder pipe or straw on the lid hole to force the tube straight down. I initially used an inch long piece of the PVC water supply tubing that comes with the machine, sliced down the length and put around the middle tube where it goes trough the lid.


----------



## NelisB (Nov 4, 2021)

Thanks Pinky!


----------



## cimbali (Dec 4, 2012)

I think , I read all the 168 pages and I'm quite impressed. I have two questions. I read about a Vostok (ACS) single group without pump. Any idea, when this will be available ? Is there a address where I can buy the ACS Leva directly ?

Thanks !


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Greetings. Due to re-organisation, all ACS Vesuvius Evo Leva questions are best directed to the thread on a different forum

https://*********************.com/d/10-acs-vesuvius-evo-leva/404

I am sure your questions will be answered there


----------



## AlanBean (12 mo ago)

OneMoreEspresso said:


> I'll post the feedback in here incase incase it can help anyone else


 Hi,

Although I'm not sure whether to spend as much over a Pavoni, but Im considering a new lever in the future. I know this is a very new machine that may have had teething problems in the first builds, but did you get the noise sorted to your satisfaction?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@AlanBean All Evo owners are on this forum now matey......

https://*********************.com/d/10-acs-vesuvius-evo-leva/404


----------



## AlanBean (12 mo ago)

No problem.

I'll stay here thanks. Everyone seems helpful.


----------



## Happyguy (Dec 29, 2021)

AlanBean said:


> No problem.
> 
> I'll stay here thanks. Everyone seems helpful.


 What I don't understand is why the new owners are permitting the blatant advertising of another forum on this forum.

I also find it strange having read back though other comments that dfk41 is still posting here and not anomolised as he advised other people to do. Must be something about here that keeps home coming back.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Happyguy said:


> What I don't understand is why the new owners are permitting the blatant advertising of another forum on this forum.
> 
> I also find it strange having read back though other comments that dfk41 is still posting here and not anomolised as he advised other people to do. Must be something about here that keeps home coming back.


 Yeah. Looks like the new owners are not doing a great job filtering spam either, I see a lot of completely unrelated nonsense.

as for advertising other forums, we always linked stuff to other forums here: home barista, coffee geek, etc.

for example, LSOL is now on: https://www.****************

i don't see a problem with that. It moved somewhere else, it's only fair for people to know. Members can choose where to go, as they please, IMO. No harm.


----------



## Happyguy (Dec 29, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Yeah. Looks like the new owners are not doing a great job filtering spam either, I see a lot of completely unrelated nonsense.
> 
> as for advertising other forums, we always linked stuff to other forums here: home barista, coffee geek, etc.
> 
> ...


 There is a difference between quoting a link, which you have done and the blatant farming of people that is going on in both peoples signatures and avatars. It just looks like poaching for another forum.

I appreciate that this forum has fractured and that the new owners probably don't care about what goes on, but some members still like to be here so why not just leave things alone.

I have noticed though that you are particularly helpful so apologies for the rant it's not aimed at you.


----------



## Ciprian75 (Jul 4, 2021)

Hello everyone, after a long happy period of time using Evo. For some time I hear a noise(puff) from steam boiler every 30-40 seconds, when temperature is over boiling pressure. Any ideas? Thx

/monthly_2022_02/925678534_WhatsAppVideo2022-01-27at18_35_01.mp4.1670179a9146bb5772fb3143e76c6e1b.mp4" type="video/mp4">
View attachment WhatsApp Video 2022-01-27 at 18.35.01.mp4


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@Ciprian75 - Dave hangs on his own forum now, and might be able to help you. Have you taken the covers off and see if you can spot any steam leaks or anything like that?


----------



## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

@Ciprian75 As above, take off the top and look for where any steam is leaking from. Hopefully you just need to tighten something up.


----------



## SimonB (Sep 12, 2013)

Ciprian75 said:


> Hello everyone, after a long happy period of time using Evo. For some time I hear a noise(puff) from steam boiler every 30-40 seconds, when temperature is over boiling pressure. Any ideas? Thx
> 
> /monthly_2022_02/925678534_WhatsAppVideo2022-01-27at18_35_01.mp4.1670179a9146bb5772fb3143e76c6e1b.mp4" type="video/mp4">
> View attachment 62521


That's the 2 bar safety valve releasing pressure you're hearing, a quick Google seems to indicate 130C is around 2 bar so presumably the valve is working correctly and releasing pressure which slowly builds up a drop of water that then hits the top of the boiler and quickly evaporates, hence the little puff you're hearing.

Here's a super exciting video of it happening:






As to why it's happening only now? That I can't explain, hopefully you just increased the temperature recently?

Actually scratch that, it is supposed to be a 2.5 bar safety valve, so I guess that means either the valve isn't working correctly or the temperature is under-reported.


----------

