# Recommendations for new machine please



## LizP (Oct 17, 2011)

I've recently fallen out of love with my Sylvia due to her having boiler issues (see previous posts). As I can't cope without a good machine I need to find a replacement and will be looking to spend £400 - £600.

The machines I've had a brief look at are the Fracino Piccino and the Fracino Cherub. Anyone got any further recommendations in this price range? Can anyone give me their view on either of the above machines?

My wish list for a machine is very basic - I want a machine that makes good coffee, is robust, and hasn't got a reputation for having boiler issues.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

You may recall Liz that we upgraded around the same time. 4 months down the line and I still love my Cherub. It's an excellent bit of kit and any of it's competitors will set you back an additional 30% in ££££.

Had absolutely no issues with it so far  Sorry to hear about your Silvia. I hope you aren't without good coffee!


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## LizP (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks for the reply Fatboyslim. I do remember, and I've just been hunting around on the forum to find the post in which you announced you'd bought the cherub.

I'm sooooo disappointed with the Sylvia but I desperately need another machine and a Fracino is a consideration. I'm torn between the Piccino and the Cherub and i'm also trying to justify the price.

What is also important to me is buying from a reputable company. Fortunately for me I bought my Sylvia from a good company who have given me a boiler replacement, a new machine and now a refund. If they had the machine I wanted, I would definitely buy from them again but they can only offer me a La Pavoni (can't remember model), Which I don't really fancy. I have seen that you really rate the company that you bought from so I might give them a call tomorrow and ask them a few questions. Don't suppose you will say how much you paid?????


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## Emollusc (Aug 19, 2012)

Here's another vote for the Cherub, had mine for nearly three weeks now (my God, that long) and I absolutely love it. Consistently good coffee, instant and abundant steam and hot water on tap.

Brian


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Very sorry to hear about your Silvia Liz.

I have had my Cherub for around 9 months now and still love it. I upgraded from a Gaggia Baby Class and was torn between a Piccino and a Cherub but decided on the Cherub. In the end I decided the HX cooling flush was not really a big deal and was drawn to the Cherub's large steam boiler and thermosyphonic e61 style group. I also really liked the fact that the Cherub is a light commercial machine.

It is built like a tank and feels reassuringly solid and industrial. Everything from the audible volume of the pump and the pressure stat when it kicks in adds to the reassuringly solid feel of the machine.

Both machines have pressure stat controlled steam boilers with autofill (so don't need manual priming, etc.).


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

You could also consider an Expobar, the new Office pulsar is quite well priced for and HX machine, it gets good reviews and as i have had my Expobar Leva for about 3 moths (Same internals) its been great, the build quality is the same as a Fracino, and both makes have a strong following on here because they are good machines.

it will depend on what you like the look of as both could be left on without boiler worries and will have more steam than you will ever need, i recently successfully steamed a pint of milk just to see if it could, and it did, without any complaint.


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## LizP (Oct 17, 2011)

Thanks for your recommendation Rob, I will have a look.


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## thomss (May 9, 2011)

I also purchased a Cherub about a month or so ago, coming from a Classic I'm over the moon with the Cherub and love everything about it.

I love using it. Good luck on your next machine


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Not sure it helps but here are the links to two threads - one I created when trying to choose between the Piccino and Cherub and one with pictures after the Cherub arrived:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4624

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=4744

In addition to the Fracino Piccino, Cherub and Heavenly in this price range are the Expobar Office Pulsar as Rob suggested, the Isomac Tea (single boiler dual use machine) and the NS Oscar.


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## abrexis (Jan 12, 2012)

Watching with interest, as I'm facing the same decision!

I was put off the NS Oscar as the only place I could find it was Amazon, and I wasn't sure what the after sales service would be like.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

If I could go back in time and buy a different machine I'd still buy a Cherub.

Such a workhorse and temperature stability is great when the group is up to temperature.

After-sales service from espresso underground, where I bought mine from, is also excellent.

Can't be faulted at all. Also consider the Piccino has had a recent update in the form of a new control pad and a boiler light.

The lack of a boiler light was one of the main reasons I didn't get a Piccino.

I believe the NS Oscar on Amazon comes from La Gondola, not sure if they are based in UK but certainly parts and after sale service won't be on par with Fracino or Espresso underground.

hope this helps


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

If you are after a Piccino or Cherub take a look at my website http://www.thecoffeebean-vanandroaster.co.uk/Domestic-Coffee-Machines.html

If you are after a grinder too, I may be able to do you a better price and I can throw in a selection of beans to try if you are interested!

Andy


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## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

I believe the Piccinos recent addition was a boiler fill light, not a heat cycle indicator. Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

jimbow said:


> Very sorry to hear about your Silvia Liz.
> 
> I have had my Cherub for around 9 months now and still love it. I upgraded from a Gaggia Baby Class and was torn between a Piccino and a Cherub but decided on the Cherub. In the end I decided the HX cooling flush was not really a big deal and was drawn to the Cherub's large steam boiler and thermosyphonic e61 style group. I also really liked the fact that the Cherub is a light commercial machine.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to get my head around what is and how you manage the HX Cooling flush...can anyone help? I understand temp surfing....is it completely different to this..and does the Cherub have HX cooling flush


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## thomss (May 9, 2011)

I flush some water through the group head before pulling a shot. If it's been sat idle for quite a while like an hour or so, I'll pull about 9-10oz of water through it get the super hot water out of it before I start my shot. You get used to it very quickly.


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

is that what they mean about hx cooling?


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## thomss (May 9, 2011)

Yeah, if you leave your machine on for a while and then you simply go pull a shot then the super heated water which has been sitting in the hx pipe will come through on to the coffee at a temperature which is far too hot.

Doing the cooling flush is just a few seconds of pulling some water through the head, which actually is quite useful ... why not use to pre-heat your cup ; )


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

so whats the difference between hx cooling and temp surfing.... Does the fraction Piccino use hx cooling


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Temp surfing is when you have a dedicated brew boiler (normally on the smaller side) which is rising and falling cyclically as the thermostat causes the heating element to switch on and off. When it switches off it will have just heated the water to its hottest and it will gradually cook until it is cool enough for the thermostat to turn the element back on. What you do is turn on the pump and let water out of the group head (and adding cold water to the boiler) until the element comes on. Then you wait until the element goes off again (known with a Silvia etc because there is an indicator light). Then you start counting / timing. The idea is that if you always brew a fixed amount of time after the heater goes off you will have the same temp each time.

This is different from a cooling flush which literally takes the very hot water out of the heat exchanger.

Oh and having a dedicated brew boiler the Piccino would use temp surfing not cooling flushes, however it doesn't have a light indicating when the heater is on so it becomes quite difficult!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## Emollusc (Aug 19, 2012)

You may find the following will explain all ypu need to know about HX machines and cooling flushes


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## Emollusc (Aug 19, 2012)

Pressed send whist trying to attach this link







http://www.home-barista.com/hx-love.html


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## CoffeeChris (Dec 2, 2011)

I do get a light that comes on...but I think thats for the steam boiler. As when the water boiler heats up I hear a different sound that I have heard with commercial machines...if that makes sense



lookseehear said:


> Temp surfing is when you have a dedicated brew boiler (normally on the smaller side) which is rising and falling cyclically as the thermostat causes the heating element to switch on and off. When it switches off it will have just heated the water to its hottest and it will gradually cook until it is cool enough for the thermostat to turn the element back on. What you do is turn on the pump and let water out of the group head (and adding cold water to the boiler) until the element comes on. Then you wait until the element goes off again (known with a Silvia etc because there is an indicator light). Then you start counting / timing. The idea is that if you always brew a fixed amount of time after the heater goes off you will have the same temp each time.
> 
> This is different from a cooling flush which literally takes the very hot water out of the heat exchanger.
> 
> ...


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## abrexis (Jan 12, 2012)

Sounds like the Cherub could be a winner!

For those that own it, was the Expobar Office Pulser on your shortlist? Can I ask what made you choose the Cherub over it?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Expobar not on short list.

I had Isomac Zaffiro and Fracino Piccino on my list but ultimately it was jimbow's recommendation of the Cherub that convinced me. Must say I'm as happy as he is with it.


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## thomss (May 9, 2011)

Got a Cherub too and absolutely loving it







Great solid machine.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> Expobar not on short list.
> 
> I had Isomac Zaffiro and Fracino Piccino on my list but ultimately it was jimbow's recommendation of the Cherub that convinced me. Must say I'm as happy as he is with it.


Glad you are still liking yours too Mark.

I have to admit that the Expobar was not on my short list either.

Please bear in mind I have not used the Expobar Office Pulsar and am sure it is a great machine but if I had to make the decision again now, I would probably still choose the Cherub over the Expobar. This decision is based mainly upon aesthetics but also that the Cherub has a bigger boiler with a more powerful heating element. Plus, deep down I get a warm fuzzy feeling from supporting a UK based company.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I also get the warm fuzzy feeling supporting a UK based company. I also know that if I have any problems I can just email Alan at Fracino.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I know that a lot of people have had a very good experience with Fracino as a company, so it may just have been bad luck, but my experience of them is no so positive, when phoning & emailing about a few Dimensions and specs, I never got answers, even after being promised they would get back to me buy the end of the week and when I finally decided to contact them about it a few weeks later they got quite defensive so I gave up. Plus they were not very happy at the price a few retailers where selling the Piccino at and made that very clear!

But I still think the Cherub is a nice machine,

The thing about a bigger boiler is, the bigger the boiler = the bigger element to power it = the bigger the electricity bill, a 1.5ltr boiler is big enough to give 4 or 5 large latté drinks with out missing a beat and the boiler is not insulated on the Cherub or the Heavenly? The thing with this price of machine, none of them are without some small compromise, its just what compromise you are happy to live with, that said most are very capable of making excellent coffee


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