# Advice on upgrading my machine.



## alexgrc (May 29, 2013)

I would like some advice as im thinking on upgrading my Gaggia Classic which to be honest i recently (4months







) bought of amazon. Im using ascaso i-2 mini as grinder for the moment. Ok so to get to the point , im mainly doing lattes/cappuccinos which is a pain for me with GC specially when i have friends over. After some research i thought id go for a HX machine preferably with E61 grouphead for great temp stability. I've found a Brasilia Mini Classic at a bargain price in very good condition - Price is *£430. *



*
My concern is that this machine is not being produced anymore and i cant seem to find a whole lot of reviews / info on the internet so knowledge base is a bit low. The other thing is that in case of a problem with the machine it seems very hard to find parts, so if something goes wrong im in trouble. What would your advice be for me, get that Brasilia or go for a new one with better aftersales support. If i stretch my budget i could spend **£900-**£950 and there are some HX machines at bellabarista i could get like the *



*
Expobar Office Leva*

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/heat-exchanger/expobar-office-leva-coffee-machine.html

or

Bezzera BZ10

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/heat-exchanger/bezzera-bz10.html

Waiting to hear your opinions guys. Thanks in advance!


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

The one that i would obviously recommend (because I have one) is a Fracino Cherub. HX espresso machine with E61 style head, filtered removable water tank and a huge 2.3 litre boiler running at steam pressure. Its a machine with almost endless steam capability, you can basically open up the tap and leave it steaming till you run out of water!

List prices look a little higher than you're aiming for, but if you speak to Peter at Espresso Underground and tell him the forum sent you, he'll give you a very very keen price much lower than either of the other machines you're looking at. The exobar Leva is a great machine though, and if you have the budget, its a great choice but looks aside, it doesnt really do anything a cherub can't do for £300 less!


----------



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The Expobar is a great machine.

However if you're stepping into the next bracket then the ECM Barista is a lovely and forgiving machine which will allow you to push your limits. http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/ecm-barista.html


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Second that the expo is a much better machine than the fracino


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

in what way coffeechap? the office leva he has linked to has a smaller boiler, and a less powerful element. I can't see any way apart from the manual lever that it's better than a Fracino cherub? I'm not just defending the cherub, i'm genuinely interested as to what makes this little machine better than the more powerful cherub? and i'm talking about results in the cup here... not more subjective things like build/looks etc. Have you used both side by side for taste comparison and does the leva's perceived improvements to you, justify its £300-400 premium?

a leva dual boiler absolutely is better, but this office leva seems very expensive for what it is.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Actually thought it was the dual boiler version so yes a bit more pricey than the fracino, however guess I am just not a lover of fracinos per se, they are getting better every year, but have seen far more knackered ones than expos.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The other machine the bezerra is in a similar vain, quite expensive, but the panelling on those is beautiful.


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

hehe i get what you mean, but for what its worth... apart from one isolated example, every cherub owner on this forum has had zero issues. Mine hasnt missed a beat since buying it.

I do understand the looks thing, however (odd as it sounds) i find the cherub much better looking than that leva. I like its odd angled sides. As a value for money proposition, its hard to beat! The other one he linked was pretty though... but you're into rocket money at that point, and i'd probably stump for a cellini at that kind of money.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Me too, once you get in and around the grand a whole new world of machines leap out


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

so, the advice is 'get a cellini'









glenn is right though, if you can stretch your budget a little bit further you can get the ecm barrista, which is a fantastic hx machine and very quiet in comparison to others. probably worth saving up a bit more to get the better machine as you will probably stave off upgraditis for longer, and it's a better spec than the machines you listed.


----------



## alexgrc (May 29, 2013)

So i should not even consider getting the Brasilia Classic right?


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

No not right, that machine is not bad at all, proper commercial hx and a match for any of the others mentioned here, they are just not the prettiest things on earth but very capable, with loads of steam and really pod quality sots


----------



## alexgrc (May 29, 2013)

I would be happy with Brasilia capabilities and i think its a very good and solid build. My concern is that its discontinued and hard to find parts or information on it. How should those factors influence my decision?


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You can still get parts for all of the brassilia machines


----------



## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

ECM looks a good buy at an excellent price. Good boiler size and heating element. The Bezzera is good quality and i love the joystick taps but no E61. The leva seems alot of money compared to the ecm


----------



## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> You can still get parts for all of the brassilia machines


Hope so. Would like a rr55od one day


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

glevum said:


> Hope so. Would like a rr55od one day


If the wife will let it in the kitchen:exit:


----------



## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> If the wife will let it in the kitchen:exit:


I have got a cunning plan.


----------



## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

I would suggest a visit to Bella Barista, it is a great experience and you can see and try a number of machines. You will almost certainly spend more than you expect but you will have seen the various machines in the flesh so to speak and tried them. They are very helpful and will answer all your questions. Good luck.

Paul


----------



## gtanny (Jan 6, 2013)

im a newbie to this whole espresso thing and dont have the experience with the other units mentioned but what i do know is for your £900-950 budget i got a Fracino Cherub and a Eureka Mignon which from http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/compactgrinder1closerlookv3.pdf would suggest its a significant upgrade from the i2 also... i dont know if you have plans in place for a new grinder or not too. they also suit each other very nicely as very square in design (i suppose a chrome mignon would suit most espresso machine though to be fair)

one thing for sure is any of these machines will be a world apart from the classic


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Cherub is a great machine at that price, but it has 2 problems. Firstly, if you buy it from the wrong dealer then you will pay a higher price. If you go to John Lewis to buy a Heavenly, you will pay circa £845. You can buy it online for £200 less. Why? Yheir pricing policy is totally wrong. A number of years ago, a farmer friend was looking glum and I asked him why. He said a rep had been courting him for 2 years to buy a combine harvester. They were circa £100k. After two years, he offered him £92k and the guy said yes, but too fast!

The other problem, is that the Cherub is ugly, so, if your budget will allow, then you might be able to get something which you think is prettier. it many not be any more functional but since it is yours and is in your house, then have what you want.


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

beauty is in the eye of the beholder







i think the cherub is much prettier in the flesh than photos suggest.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But if you had paid £845 for yours Shrink, would you still imagine that?


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

hmmmm thats a very good question. I think for £850 i'd be far less happy with its little oddities (like the drip tray). Visually I don't actually have a problem with it, not when it has the contrast sparkling black side panels. I don't like the all stainless one anywhere near as much. If the drip tray was perfect, its a machine I'd still have been happy to pay £850 for. Although perhaps a slightly better water tank cover too









But the other way to look at it, is that you get a few things on the cherub that even the more expensive HX machines don't give you. Such as a filtered water tank with low level alarm. As far as I know, the entry rockets just have a basic plastic tank and thats your lot. They also use quite a big boiler and element in the cherub which makes it very powerful for the money in terms of steam capacity, and recovery.

Not saying its perfect... but as we all know you can get it for less than £650, it makes a great value proposition.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I agree wholeheartedly. At an entry price of £650 it is very good value, but, if you can stretch to something more expensive then why not. If it is value you are after, then go for it! I had 2 Heavenlys and much preferred the retro shape of them so am speaking a little from experience.


----------



## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

The churub is a lot of machine for the money and i would buy one over the similar priced Expobar office


----------



## alexgrc (May 29, 2013)

I agree the Cherub has nice price and specs, i dont understand why for a single boiler machine it consumes so much power 2800w? But it is a bit ugly as well in term of looks. Quality wise though? Is this an actual E61 grouphead ? Thermal Stability?


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

yes, e61 grouphead. it is very good value, but it won't be to everyone's taste. but, new, i don't think there's anything to touch it at that price. if you pay the john lewis price then there are good (and in my view) better looking alternatives, but beauty, beholder, eye etc....


----------



## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

No, the cherub is not an E61. Its fracino's own version of the E61. Its a HX machine not a single boiler. But, i agree its a very big heating element, very good for recovery time, steaming etc but not so good on the leccie bill.


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

apologies, thought it was an e61!


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

it is really... its an E61 clone. apart from not having a manual lever, it works exactly the same as any other E61. Its a thermosiphon group. So stability in temperature etc is the same. In reality theres not many examples of an actual "e61" group. Just lots of people doing their own versions of it.

Its a 2800w element because the boiler runs at steam pressure and is huge, but the pressure stat works pretty well, and in the bigger scheme of things, they don't use that much power because they are only on for a few seconds every minute or so.

See one in the flesh, the pics make some look worse than they are:


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I agree wholeheartedly. At an entry price of £650 it is very good value, but, if you can stretch to something more expensive then why not. If it is value you are after, then go for it! I had 2 Heavenlys and much preferred the retro shape of them so am speaking a little from experience.


see i saw a heavenly the other day.. and i thought it was ridiculously large given it has the same internals, to my eyes it looked fat, cumbersome and needlessly bulky. But as you say, its all down to personal taste and preference. The Heavenly is just far too big to my eyes, and without a water tap as standard, and no removable water tank, is a less value filled product.


----------



## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Nice n neat Shrink.


----------



## Savo (Apr 9, 2013)

How dare you call my heavenly fat!







. Most have the Tap And surely the size of the heating element is a good thing?

Sent from my GT-I9100 using Tapatalk 2


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

hehe your heavenly is an obese fattie... needs to go on a diet and become the sculpted angular form that is the Cherub


----------



## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

I have a cherub and do love it, but are you sure that you do not own Fracino Shrink? haha You defend the cherubs honour with force haha. To be honest though i must agree at the money they are hard to beat. But the dual boiler Expo and any Rocket would be nicer to have in my opinion especially in the looks dept, but this obviously comes at a price. My next machine in a few years will probably be a lever!


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Oh trust me,,. When I move house and have a bit more space... A dual boiler with rotary pump will be getting plumbed in!!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Shrink, before you waste your money, try a lever machine, or more specifically an L1. Thats all I am going to say on the matter! I think part of the Cherubs looks problem is those large plastic knobs. Maybe some nice wood ones would make such a difference


----------



## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

I agree DFK41, think your wood man could deal with it?


----------



## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

Also the L1 is on my hit list! What happened with the Bezzera, not as good as the L1 so you returned?


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Spukey said:


> Also the L1 is on my hit list! What happened with the Bezzera, not as good as the L1 so you returned?


Read my thread on it, it is not a patch on the L1


----------



## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Looks like no competition to the L1 till BB get the plumbed Bezzera Strega

http://casabarista.com/espresso-equipment/espresso-machines/bezzera/strega-se/


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

glevum said:


> Looks like no competition to the L1 till BB get the plumbed Bezzera Strega
> 
> http://casabarista.com/espresso-equipment/espresso-machines/bezzera/strega-se/


Will be pushing the price up and still not a patch on the more expensive group!! And I am not convinced on the durability of that in group element, but lets see, might get BB to let me try one out.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Spukey said:


> I agree DFK41, think your wood man could deal with it?


If you could take one off, photograph it, give me the dimensions and the thread size, I am sure he could. The first items he is making are getting closer to perfection now. he was at my house last night and brought some with him, and I have posted the info in a new thread in the machine, grinders forum for all to see


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Here if you are interested

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?10437-Wood-Handles


----------



## alexgrc (May 29, 2013)

Back to topic now!

I am now concidering two machines

Expobar Office Leva (HX) - Rocket Cellini Classic (HX)

Pros - Cons

Expobar has Insulated boiler and you can either plump it in or use tank also a bit 100euros cheaper at casabarista

Rocket Cellini has larger boiler 1,8lt against 1,5lt on Expobar . Non insulated though.

Your Thoughts? Any owners comments would be highly appreciated!







Any other machine up to £900 is debatable.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Go to bellabarista and try what they have, side by side. Just ring Claudette to make an appointment, take your payment method with you, and leave space in your car for the extra boxes on the return journey


----------



## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

The v2 of the Cellini has an insulated boiler. You should be able to pick one up second hand in your price range.

For 200 quid more you can get a new ecm barista. Just as good as the rocket, just looks different.

You could also get a bezzera mitica. All three are very similar machines, just comes down to personal preference.


----------

