# Machine faulty? Bad tasting coffee, puks wet and falling apart



## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

Starting from today i was wondering why the puk was so wet and falling in 1000 peaces when dropped it. Coffee surly tasted awful.

Changing grind didn't fixed it. Any idea? pressure problem?

PS:


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Can't give you any advice based on the description of a the puck.

What we're the shot parameters, have you changed coffee. Is this a one off taste default or is it persistent.


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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is this a one off taste default or is it persistent.


Persistent

Shot parameters doesn't change anything. tried from 1:1 output to 1:3...always the same bad taste


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

oracleuser said:


> Starting from today i was wondering why the puk was so wet and falling in 1000 peaces when dropped it. Coffee surly tasted awful.
> 
> Changing grind didn't fixed it. Any idea? pressure problem?
> 
> ...


Try something other than supermarket coffee....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

oracleuser said:


> Persistent
> 
> Shot parameters doesn't change anything. tried from 1:1 output to 1:3...always the same bad taste


There must be some perceptable difference in at least strength between a 1:1 shot and a 1:3.

Whats the coffee? Have you brewed the coffee to see if its to your preference?

Is this anew coffee or has it gone from acceptable to bad?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> There must be some perceptable difference in at least strength between a 1:1 shot and a 1:3.
> 
> Whats the coffee? Have you brewed the coffee to see if its to your preference?
> 
> Is this anew coffee or has it gone from acceptable to bad?


So many questions Mr Boots, you remind me of how I used to be....









The Bitterness that he is tasting must be down to over roasted beans.


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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> There must be some perceptable difference in at least strength between a 1:1 shot and a 1:3.
> 
> Whats the coffee? Have you brewed the coffee to see if its to your preference?
> 
> Is this anew coffee or has it gone from acceptable to bad?


it all tastes awful....how i said:

it's not really a puk whats coming out...it's more like grounded coffee which had been watered ....a portafilter full of mud

and i didn't change the beans


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Hey! Do a quick video start to finish se we can see what's going on - it will save a load of time and questions


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

oracleuser said:


> it all tastes awful....how i said:
> 
> it's not really a puk whats coming out...it's more like grounded coffee which had been watered ....a portafilter full of mud
> 
> and i didn't change the beans


Make a clip, it's impossible to tell from the little info you are giving.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

oracleuser said:


> it all tastes awful....how i said:
> 
> it's not really a puk whats coming out...it's more like grounded coffee which had been watered ....a portafilter full of mud
> 
> and i didn't change the beans


Usually just down to rather severe under filling and as it's an Oracle could be something to do with tamping such as it isn't.

John

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Edit - problem with that suggestion - video shows that puck isn't muddy.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> So many questions Mr Boots, you remind me of how I used to be....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Or just maybe rather a lot of fines because the grinder is choked.








I do get your "feelings" though.

John

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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

So, i have made a video.






As you can see - the "result" isn't a puk. It's just wet grinded coffee falling apart.

And the coffee tastes like that - just like as if somebody would have watered grinded beans with a watering can.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

One thing might be important. Have you changed anything that caused this to happen or has everything been ok in the past - same bean, same grinder setting and same in and out weights?

John

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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

ajohn said:


> One thing might be important. Have you changed anything that caused this to happen or has everything been ok in the past - same bean, same grinder setting and same in and out weights?
> 
> John
> 
> -


It's all the same. I didn't change anything.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Looking at your posts it looks like you seem have always had problems using the machine. I can understand ones relating to the single. Some one looked at that a while ago on an Oracle actually and found that 10g wasn't enough as they were tamping on the shoulder not the grinds. From memory they reckonned 12 was ok - I'd wonder if it needs more and at workable levels would be over filled.

Tamping on the shoulder can give the sort of result you are having and worse. Bad choice of weight and poor preparation can too. Also simply tamping too light.

I think I saw Lavazza beans mentioned. I did try that as we had some about used in a french press. Possible to use but taste completely wrong. I assume the blend was never intended to be used in an espresso machine. If some one want to use Lavazza I'd suggest these 2.

For my tastes this one is better at higher ratios - they suggest 14 in and 60 out on the pack. Maybe 17 in circa 60 out.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000SDMFHA/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

No instructions on this one and in my view better at lower ratios

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B000SDMFC0/ref=oh_aui_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Both are ok with 17g in the Sage 58mm double. The tastes they can and will give are described on their global web site but listed under a section for some form of commercial use.

The 2nd one in particular is a bit clumpy when used in a hopper on a grinder but not badly so. The Oracle grinder will probably be totally clump free.

I've no idea what can be changed on an Oracle but assume if they dose automatically the only thing that can be changed is the grind setting so if all else is ok it suggests that there is a problem with the machine. It might come set for volume rather than time - going on a DB volumetric control is rather poor. Curiously it works fairly well on the BE, probably because the pressure gauge can be used to indicate how much water goes through via the over pressure valve. None will at the readings Sage suggest but people may need to work a lot higher.

As there appears to be air coming out of the puck I'd suspect either under filling / inadequate tamping pressure. As it doses automatically and will have a time limit on how long the grinder runs some sort of choking in that could have some influence.

The other thing to bear in mind is that Sage provide a single basket for 30g singles and another for 60g doubles. Those are ratios that you should at least try.

John

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## spoxehub (Oct 24, 2014)

It's Brexit at the root of all this. Mark my words.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Looking at your posts it looks like you seem have always had problems using the machine. I can understand ones relating to the single. Some one looked at that a while ago on an Oracle actually and found that 10g wasn't enough as they were tamping on the shoulder not the grinds. From memory they reckonned 12 was ok - I'd wonder if it needs more and at workable levels would be over filled.
> 
> Tamping on the shoulder can give the sort of result you are having and worse. Bad choice of weight and poor preparation can too. Also simply tamping too light.
> 
> ...


Its an oracle , dose / basket is a 22 g gram one that comes with it .

You can adjust the dose , im not sure 5 g , in that basket it would be pretty hideous

It auto tamps , correct .

Change the coffee , before the machine .


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

oracleuser said:


> And the coffee tastes like that - just like as if somebody would have watered grinded beans with a watering can.


...wait a minute, that's exactly how I brew my coffee!

How can you tell how much you are getting in the cup?

You seem to have to poke the puck a lot to get it to break up, it's not loose, or a runny slurry, have you tried going a little coarser?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Theres now much wring with that puck , the coffee nominally looks ok ( brown, hot etc )

No change in grind setting then, is that correct , thought we had done 1:1 to 1:3 , presumably using scales at this point ?

Change coffee


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

spoxehub said:


> It's Brexit at the root of all this. Mark my words.


Probably 100% correct - the machine knows that all will not be alright.







Probably correct too.

John

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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Theres now much wring with that puck , the coffee nominally looks ok ( brown, hot etc )
> 
> No change in grind setting then, is that correct , thought we had done 1:1 to 1:3 , presumably using scales at this point ?
> 
> Change coffee


It has nothing to do with coffee. That came over night. So i think the machine get faulty.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

oracleuser said:


> It has nothing to do with coffee. That came over night. So i think the machine get faulty.


What is the coffee ?

The coffee taste bad at 1:1 and 1:3 still ? perhaps check the ingredient ?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Probably 100% correct - the machine knows that all will not be alright.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That'll explain why it's started speaking German!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Theres now much wring with that puck , the coffee nominally looks ok ( brown, hot etc )
> 
> No change in grind setting then, is that correct , thought we had done 1:1 to 1:3 , presumably using scales at this point ?
> 
> Change coffee


Not sure about the puck depending on what the poking did.







If nothing I wouldn't insult a bean in such as way as only a bit came out on the first knock. Something bad on the route from the beans to fitting the portafilter can do that. Beans - wouldn't have thought so.

I'd agree that doesn't not look like a wet puck to me so beans may well be favourite.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Was the temperature of the undrinkable shot the same as usual?


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## dandu (Mar 13, 2018)

Hi Mrboots2u,

I have just checked your video of preparation. I know you wrote that you haven't changed anything. But maybe this could be the problem. Just change something else but ratio. For me iťs quite obvious. I would bet overdosing is the cause and it results watery extraction as your grind might be to coarse. You have just relatively slow extraction only because the puck after wetting makes big pressure inside basket against dispersion screen. There is significant hard imprint of head on the puck. Try lower the dose significantly at least 1gram or even more. Tighten your grinder to get good brew-time/ratio. I have Sage Dual Boiler so the Brew unit is almost same. I am use ~18,3grams of coffee in the Sage Standard dual filter basket. The difference is the grinder. If your grinder is not capable to grind fine enough its fact, but you can get rid of that by changing beans to some more forgiving and easier to grind. Start with blends and bit darker roasts as you will be sure you are getting consistent good results you can play more. And after all, don't forget to use fresh roasted beans.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dandu said:


> Hi Mrboots2u,
> 
> I have just checked your video of preparation. I know you wrote that you haven't changed anything. But maybe this could be the problem. Just change something else but ratio. For me iťs quite obvious. I would bet overdosing is the cause and it results watery extraction as your grind might be to coarse. You have just relatively slow extraction only because the puck after wetting makes big pressure inside basket against dispersion screen. There is significant hard imprint of head on the puck. Try lower the dose significantly at least 1gram or even more. Tighten your grinder to get good brew-time/ratio. I have Sage Dual Boiler so the Brew unit is almost same. I am use ~18,3grams of coffee in the Sage Standard dual filter basket. The difference is the grinder. If your grinder is not capable to grind fine enough its fact, but you can get rid of that by changing beans to some more forgiving and easier to grind. Start with blends and bit darker roasts as you will be sure you are getting consistent good results you can play more. And after all, don't forget to use fresh roasted beans.


Hi and welcome

1. I am not poster with the issue.

2. it's an SAGE ORACLE machine, it doses and tamps automatically to the supplied baskets ( 22g ish ) . For sure sense check deck it is dosing as it should but it's more likely to be too coarse a grind size , this is the variable you can most effect . This is how you can effect screen imprint etc.

3. You can lower the dose a little but this is a plug and play machine .

4. Supllied basket would not be appropriate for 18 g

Not being Sarky , but try a first post saying hi etc, these threads are hard to dive in on, especially if you are not familiar with the machine or you have read the thread advice given previously and just assume the solution .

Cheers


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> Was the temperature of the undrinkable shot the same as usual?










Oh no - we might get some one else who thinks they can dip a thermometer in anywhere and in any fashion to measure brew water temperature.

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Oh no - we might get some one else who thinks they can dip a thermometer in anywhere and in any fashion to measure brew water temperature.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Oh no - I meant when he takes a glug does it seem normal temp, nothing as technical as a thermometer. I wouldn't know where to suggest to stick it.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

oracleuser said:


> It has nothing to do with coffee. That came over night. So i think the machine get faulty.


If it is faulty I would suspect that the grinder is the problem. Maybe you could remove the hopper, vac out / remove beans and bits on top of the burrs, run the grinder until no grounds come out and then remove the outer bur and take a look. You should see something like this but probably cleaner. This one has sat for some time with grinds in it.









If it's full of grinds the grinder is choked - probably instructions for a full clean in the manual for the machine. As the photo shows there should be grinds around the rim of the chamber and also under the metal armed part that sweeps the grinds out. Apart from that it should be relatively clean and very probably a lot less grinds on the bur. The exit from the grind chamber is towards the centre of the machine. I hoped the photo would show it. That can get blocked eventually but if that's the case the grinder wont sweep all of the remaining grinds out when it's run as I suggested empty. It will be rather obvious that it hasn't.

One concern about these posts - no weights in or out have been mentioned. They should be especially when a video is posted.

Overdosing - I have done a lot of that intentionally on one machine. I'm not convinced that a couple of grams of that in a 58mm basket would make that much difference. What tends to happen is that the puck gets hard and harder to knock out and strength drops off at some point.

John

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## spoxehub (Oct 24, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Hi and welcome
> 
> 1. I am not poster with the issue.
> 
> ...


*micdrop*


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## hummel89 (Dec 7, 2018)

Am I the only one thinking that this guy is a bit paranoid? Based on the video that you showed us I can conclude following:

1) puck is perfectly fine (it is ground coffee after all and it can come out in many ways and not necessarily in on or few big pieces). So I wouldn't worry about that.

2) shot is pouring fine too, not to fast and not too slow. Some coffee like the slower pour, some fast pour.

3) do you drink espresso?

Many option to consider - try different beans, store your beans properly (don't freeze, don't put in fridge etc). An airtight container. Buy in smaller batches if you go through it slowly, descale and backflush.


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## oracleuser (Sep 26, 2018)

I am back ? Sage sent me a brand new machine after explaining the defect and sending in the old one. Coffee is good again. This is what i call SERVICE.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

They do appear to have odd grinder problems. They have to be calibrated by hand as they are assembled. I've seen it done and wondered how they managed to get the burrs rubbing gently or maybe a little tightly on min setting. The parts after the bits we mess with are adjusted by hand until the burrs touch - then the rest is aligned to that when at the min setting. Suppose some chinese person in assembly misses this or thinks there are other ways.

John

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## Callum_Pg (Oct 28, 2020)

There are 2 things :-

Q1. Increase the dose, this will reduce the water inside the puck.

Q2. Some machines we're designed with 2 way valve. Those machine with 2 way valve normally are soupy. Those machines with 3 way valve will not have this issue.


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