# Sage 920XL - No Steam After Descale, Spontaneously Fixed



## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

Just passing this here in case the problem crops up for anyone else.

I decided to descale my BDB. After descaling the machine no longer produced any steam and just made three short beeps.

I have descaled the machine several times before with no problem. This time however I used a different brand of descaler and only put one litre of concentrated solution into the tank (as opposed to the typical 2-3L). I don't know whether this was the cause of the problem (it was the only thing that changed), but I think it must have interfered with the probes, causing the machine to think the steam boiler was full of water. Due to this the steam boiler pump stopped activating, and I was left without steam.

Obviously the machine needed repairing, but rather than going without flat whites for several weeks I did what any sane man would do and used the opportunity to upgrade to something more exciting! As the new machine isn't going to arrive until the end of the month, I decided to get more into straight espresso whilst I wait for it to arrive.

Anyway - happily I went down to the machine this morning and found that the steam had miraculously fixed itself! I have no idea what happened or how it righted itself, but five days of not doing anything caused it to come back to life.

Any thoughts what might have happened here?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Probably a water level problem so it didn't heat the steam boiler at all thinking it's empty. Engineers when the visit sometimes clean the probes. No one has ever mentioned what they do which is a pity. I'll have to guess when I have a look.

Having had an unpleasant experience on a BE that fortunately I could buy parts to repair I've decided to stick with Puly. I skip the first flush so double the descale time to make sure any scale is removed. Mine was a refurb and one straight descale definitely didn't remove it all.  Several actually until I did a 2nd one as wasn't sure if the brew boiler had drained. I don't think the built in descale indicator works that well. It's better to listen to the sound when it's heating up. The back flush indication is probably too many shots as well but it's easy to just get into a routine with that.

If mine goes awol I pretty sure I will buy another but new this time. Some other machines have caught up with some of it's features it has but frankly I don't think they offer any advantages. An E61 head and long heat up times doesn't appeal to me.


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

_HH_ said:


> but rather than going without flat whites for several weeks I did what any sane man would do and used the opportunity to upgrade to something more exciting!


 Well quite. What did you go for? Personally, I hope to never have to descale by using Waitrose water, which is surely too middle class to transport something as vulgar as limescale.


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

earthflattener said:


> Well quite. What did you go for? Personally, I hope to never have to descale by using Waitrose water, which is surely too middle class to transport something as vulgar as limescale.


 Ha! The really annoying thing is I have switched to scale-free water too, but had one packet of descaler so thought 'I'll just run it through to make sure any residual scale is cleared off'. Whoops!

I went for a Decent DE1+. I'm very excited to have it turn up at the end of the month!


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## _HH_ (Oct 10, 2018)

ajohn said:


> If mine goes awol I pretty sure I will buy another but new this time. Some other machines have caught up with some of it's features it has but frankly I don't think they offer any advantages. An E61 head and long heat up times doesn't appeal to me.


 Agreed on the E61. The Dual Boiler is an amazing piece of kit, and completely unmatched at its price. The main reason for switching up to a Decent is it's so portable, and gives me a bit more room to tweak things. Have you done the 'Slayer Mod' to your BDB? It's brilliant!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I did hear mention of the mod but never really looked at it






Not for me. The machine is good in another respect - hot water for my americano. By the time it gets to the mug it's at a good temperature for coffee. Sage are a bit naughty as they hide the fact that the brew boiler temperature will have dropped. Best way to see is turn it off and back on again. It doesn't take long to reheat.

To be honest I would have thought that similar could be done by playing with pump power settings and extended brew times but not tapering off flow at the end of the shot. I've been brewing 30sec and standard settings for a long time and have been thinking about a change.

The mention of slightly smaller O rings in the video is a bit misleading. New ones will always be a bit smaller. O rings swell. Best have spares when they are disturbed. Sage use silicone as it is definitely food safe. Given the temperature in some places it's probably best to stick with it.

Checking it seems I have had mine for  1082 days. In excess of 1500 shot plus water for americano. I don't know how old it is as a refurb from Sage's used/refurb outlet. One problem months ago, solenoid rattle so I dismantled it and cleaned it's seals. I probably don't back flush often enough and Sage's shot count would be less often. I don't change the filter often either. Miniscule quantity of scale dust wiped off with my finger. The same type of solenoid is made by various companies but not with a push on pipe fitting on top and unlike Sage they have a brass rather than stainless base. Recently there are slight signs of the pump weakening or perhaps a bit of an air leak some where. It's run a lot of americano so in terms of shots water throughput multiply it by 8 at least. It looks like it's is a standard Ulka part. People have replaced them. One I have noticed uses a screw fit version but that needs more parts changing. He replaced the plastic OPV with a metal one as well.

I will be descaling shortly. Not due to the machine telling me. More signs of vigorous boiling early on when it's heating up. The sound still tapers off to nothing due to PID but heat up time is a little longer than it was.  I'll take a look for leaks at the same time. I don't think looking can be avoided on any machine. Usual DB leaks are mentioned as being after 3 years of use.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

earthflattener said:


> Well quite. What did you go for? Personally, I hope to never have to descale by using Waitrose water, which is surely too middle class to transport something as vulgar as limescale.


 I'm in B'ham so very soft water but some one on here mentioned that Severn Trent abstract from elsewhere at times and he worked for them. Water can have all sorts in it. One sign might be in the filler at the front top that saves having to get the tank out - signs of white there as water has dried out. That's the sort of stuff I found in the solenoid. Scale or what pass, just tiny amount of white mud.

When I have descaled I have always done the final refill and reheat in that mode. I'd suspect descaling may help keep the water level probes clean. I also do one more reheat and flush than they suggest and disregard their comment about letting the machine cool before doing it. It needs a damp cloth over the drip tray when the steam boiler is drained anyway. I also descale the steam wand a bit with a few short pulses.

Electronics - I plug it into a spike / surge suppressor. Lack of that could explain a fault that they occasionally have.

To be honest in some ways I feel I have had my money's worth out of it even if I had bought it new. Some people do run them for a long time. I only switch it on when I want a drink and then it's off again. Comments on them - who's going to say all is ok. Some will but people who have a problem most certainly will. More chance of people who buy a DB knowing about the complications of brewing at home unlike their cheaper machines. When I look at other machines I look for stainless boilers and easy descaling. It limits the field and has a rather extreme effect on price. One person on here who has a suitable machine viewed this way goes to extreme lengths to avoid scale completely. He never has any problems with the machine at all. It costs.


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## earthflattener (Jul 27, 2015)

_HH_ said:


> I went for a Decent DE1+. I'm very excited to have it turn up at the end of the month!


 Interested to hear how that goes. I have my eye on it, but for now my wallet is staying firmly in my pocket. I intend to hang onto the DB for a couple more years, all going well.

I must admit, I don't change the filter. I've been assuming that using 'clean' water means that I don't need to. That may turn out to be an error, but I've not heard any different.


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## Flanners (Mar 21, 2011)

After my experience descaling I probably won't in future risk it, use double filtered water from a Brita and the in tank filter, I live in a soft water area with no scale on kettle etc. I think the Delonghi solution I used coated the probes and confused the machine and me, had no steam, machine would not auto re-fill the steam boiler etc/



_HH_ said:


> Just passing this here in case the problem crops up for anyone else.
> 
> I decided to descale my BDB. After descaling the machine no longer produced any steam and just made three short beeps.
> 
> ...


 The probes get coated in the descaler and it takes a while for this to evaporate/remove itself from the probes. Mine has done the same thing before, having inspected the probes and the boilers there was no scale in anycase as I double filter and live in a soft water area, so I am not going to bother descaling again and risk a breakdown.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've descaled a number of times without any problems. I do drain brew first though as it's easier to see that it has.  I was left wondering once. Also always reheat in descale mode. I don't do the quick skip mentioned in the manual - can be pressed at any time.

I had the dreaded solenoid rattle. Turned out to be tiny amount of scale sludge by the part that seals flow. I suspect this happened because the machine was a refurb and the usual descale routine wasn't removing all of it. So descaled twice and skipped the first flush on the 2nd one to run with the descaler in for twice as long as usual. It transformed the behaviour of the PID and the boiling sounds from the machine.

I too live in a very soft water area but still intend to descale as all sorts are dissolved in water and a man on here who works for severn trent pointed out that they abstract from harder areas at times to keep the supply rates up. The early boiling noise are currently more vigorous than they have been so time to do it again. PID action is still fine.


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## PhilMac (5 mo ago)

Hi

Just wanted to confirm that there is a fix for the no steam following descale problem.

Saw this suggestion of removing the steam boiler wires and causing the pump to run and thus fill the steam boiler worked a treat, it did take some time as stated for water to run out of the steam wand. :-

Not sure if people figured this out but I do this every time I descale and thought it's worth sharing.

*Why this happens:*

What happens is the descaler makes the machine think the boilers are full (different resistance than water). Once the descaler coats the sensors, the machine will continue to think water has hit them even when it hasnt. We esentially need to trick the machine to fill with clean water in order to rinse the descaler off the sensor.

*How to "trick" it and fix it:*



With machine OFF and unplugged; Open Machine. (two screws left and right of group head. Two more on back of machine. Be careful there are wires going to top lid. Just prop the top UP.)

2) Locate sensor wires of boiler. (Red and blue, on right hand-side steam boiler)
3) Disconnect one of the sensor wires (red or blue does matter, they should should be unplug-able.
















4) Put steam lever into ON position (important not to put pressure on the steam boiler pump).
5) Plug machine back in; Turn ON and you should hear the steam boiler filling. Let it go until you see water going through the steam wand (takes pretty long, make sure to start with plenty of water).
6) Turn off the machine and then drain the steam boiler.
7) Reconnect the sensor, power ON the machine.
8) At this point it should fill the steam boiler again, if it does, reassemble the machine. If not you can try repeating the process (steps 1 through 5).
Keep in mind, this will likely happen next time. I think one possible way to avoid it would be to dilute your descaler more, but it won't be as effective. I just got to the point that taking apart the machine has just become part of the process of descaling.

Really hope this helps someone, I RMAed my machine and even the new one had this issue. It's pretty disappointing for a $1000+ machine but still great outside of this big flaw.

*EDIT:* It was brought to my attention that there are some hidden menus on these machines that may help avoid opening the machine. :-

PROBLEM

No matter what I did the 'descale' message didn't reset, and appeared every time I turned the machine on. I was told by a service company that the 920 does not have any scale sensors as such and that it just works on a timer (presumably related to the hard water setting selected 1-2-3). Anyway it appears to have got it's software 'stuck'

THINGS THAT DIDN'T WORK

I tried descaling a number of times, leaving the solution in overnight, using the documented 'reset' function. None of this worked.

WHAT EVENTUALLY WORKED

There is an additional reset function that I found by accident. Try the following:

1. POWER OFF
2. Holding the 'ONE CUP' and 'TWO CUP' buttons, press the power button MULTIPLE TIMES until the screen comes on with '00:00' displayed.
3. Press the 'UP' button (which increments the numbers 01:00, 02:00, then some counters I think etc etc) about 12 times until '3r5t' is displayed. Is this 'Engineers Reset' ??
4. Hold the 'MANUAL' button for 3 seconds which will have lit up - the machine will beep 3 times and '3r5t' will flash.
5. Press the 'POWER' button and the machine will enter it's startup routine.

Hope that helps. Usual disclaimer here that I really don't know what is happening here, it's not documented as far as I know.

So whilst this worked for me, please proceed at your own risk.
......................................................​

Good luck hope you get it sorted if you have the same problem.


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