# £250 John Lewis voucher... Duo Temp Pro + Separate Grinder or Barista Express?



## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

First post and just joined so go easy on me.

I've got a £250 John Lewis voucher sitting here.

*Would I be better off buying a Duo Temp Pro and separate grinder (Sage Smart Grinder Pro or better) or buying the Barista Express?*

From reading online it seems having a separate grinder is better and have read some reports of the integrated grinder not being that great and performing a bit under par after a year or so.

I am not an expert by any means but have been using the AeroPress for two years now and am constantly learning things from watching a channel called Seattle Coffee Gear on YouTube. I know about pre-infusion, portafilters, pressurised and non-pressurised baskets and I feel ready to try a machine and learn more.

The voucher won't cover all of it either way so:

The Duo Temp Pro (£199) + Smart Grinder Pro (£144) will cost me £343.00

The Barista Express would cost me £399.00

Bambino is sold out at John Lewis as VERY popular but they are back in stock on 13th. Should I wait for this?

The difference in cost is not an issue and countertop space isn't either!

I know someone asked this very same question at the end of 2018, just wanting a fresh opinion!

Thank you in advance


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Bambino step on from the dtp imo though I've only owned the former.

Much faster heat up, auto frothing and heating works very well indeed, super small footprint. Needs express/dtp single wall baskets and pf

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Bambino step on from the dtp imo though I've only owned the former.
> 
> Much faster heat up, auto frothing and heating works very well indeed, super small footprint. Needs express/dtp single wall baskets and pf
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Someone mentioned yesterday (or possibly the day before - been a bit of a blurr) that the Bambino is now shipping with non pressurised baskets as well as the double walled ones.


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## General-S-1 (Jul 27, 2015)

Sage barista express owner here. Would definitely go the dtp and separate grinder route. Love my be but already got the upgrade bug ?


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

General-S-1 said:


> Sage barista express owner here. Would definitely go the dtp and separate grinder route. Love my be but already got the upgrade bug ?


 Very interesting that you would advise going with the Dual Temp Pro and grinder! Why? How long have you had the BE and why do you have an upgrade bug?


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## General-S-1 (Jul 27, 2015)

Have had my barista 3 months, really enjoying it. I would recommend separate grinder only because i waste alot of beans when dialling in a new batch. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will undertstand what im trying to say. Maybe look at an on demand grinder. Hope that helps.


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## Michael87 (Sep 20, 2019)

I was advised to get separate grinder and machine because it allows more upgrading flexibility, and also stops the beans getting hot which might happen in the barista express (bad). Also the grinder is a steal at £144. I paid £175 three months ago. It is a great starter grinder if you would prefer to buy new.


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## General-S-1 (Jul 27, 2015)

Sage smart grinder pro in black truffle is currently on £114 costco website


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

General-S-1 said:


> Sage smart grinder pro in black truffle is currently on £114 costco website


Fairly certain they don't take John Lewis vouchers though.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The 2 grinders are essentially the same so no reason why one would fail before the other. The SGP has smaller steps but a lot of the steps aren't suitable for espresso.

Having said that and having used both I can't definitely say that one has noticeable smaller steps than the other. Both cover too much at the coarse end for espresso or at least did for me even using the single basket and various beans. Way way more in the case of the SGP, suitable for different brewing methods.

If some one wants to upgrade the grinder it will need rather a lot more cash than an SGP does to achieve anything significant. I bought an SGP so that I would have 2 grinders, one for the beans I usually use and one for beans I wanted to try. The usual ones were in the BE grinder making tiny time adjustments something that took a bit of practice. Once a grinder has been set up to dose correctly and only need very slight time adjustments now and again it's not a good idea to change anything especially the beans. It can take over a week for them to settle down.

The Bambino seems to be based on the BE less gauge and hot water. Only way to find what has been changed is to buy one, something I'm unlikely to do. There are a couple of things they may have changed ie would have been a good idea but suspect they haven't.

There is no real need to change the bambino portafilter. It could be drilled out to go bottomless just like the one on the BE and DTP. The fact that it's different is unlikely to alter the taste of what comes out. It takes the same baskets. Understand it's stainless like the others as well - more important.

John

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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

General-S-1 said:


> Have had my barista 3 months, really enjoying it. I would recommend separate grinder only because i waste alot of beans when dialling in a new batch. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable will undertstand what im trying to say. Maybe look at an on demand grinder. Hope that helps.


 Do you think as a beginner I'd be missing out on the benefit of the pressure gauge by going with the DTP rather than the BE? Just wondering how I will tell whether I'm pulling proper shots without it.


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## General-S-1 (Jul 27, 2015)

Im sorry, cant answer that, am beginner myself, also havent used a dtp. I was just trying to say that if i could start over, i would buy separate grinder. Good luck ?


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## THR_Crema (May 20, 2019)

Firstly what an amazing position to be in - buying your first espresso machine; such fun.

So I'm 3 years into owning a Barista Express and had the DTP before this (It was upgraded by Sage after the casing started to rust due to a one off fault). Great customer service.

Personally as a beginner machine and something that can provide you decent espresso and milk the BE is a great all in one package. It depends how serious you think this hobby will go?

I was kindly bought the DTP as a present and it was a concern of mine (& the good ladies) that it would be another kitchen gadget I wouldn't use. Thankfully I took to it and keep enjoying learning and tweaking things.

Ive thought about the Bambino but not sure I like the auto frothing function - I feel it might not be as good as manual steaming for Latté art - but then I'be not used one but I know @joey24dirt has one so might be able to help with this?

The BE is a great all in one and the difference between the two Sage grinders won't be noticeable. Buy decent freshly ground coffee - I buy mine on a subscription basis from 200 Degrees and get it posted directly.

After 3 years with the BE I now feel ready to upgrade to a new setup - probably won't happen for another year but starting to enjoy researching what I'll upgrade to next.

Loving every time I use my BE and can't rate it enough.


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## hummel89 (Dec 7, 2018)

AvidBean said:


> Do you think as a beginner I'd be missing out on the benefit of the pressure gauge by going with the DTP rather than the BE? Just wondering how I will tell whether I'm pulling proper shots without it.


 I don't think you will be missing out long term, maybe In the beginning when you are learning how it all works and pressure gauge gives you a good indication whether the shot that you are pulling is okay. However, long term it becomes a bit irrelevant since you will want to time it to get your exact volume of espresso out. I have a barista express myself. I do think that only way it makes sense to split is if you buy better grinder than Sage. So agree with @ajohn there.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

I've loved having my DTP, I've had it for around 4 years now.

But I've always suspected it's been underheating, and my best efforts at measuring the water temp seem to confirm this. 
I roast my own beans and have always preferred a darker roast, but now I am moving towards lighter roasts I was finding the DTP to be lacking there. I think the problem is slightly low heat as the same roast on my Gaggia which I measured at 92-96 tastes far better. 
I think I just got a dud DTP as others have managed to get them to temp.

The BE has temp control, which I'd like. But I actually have a barista pro on the way. This could also be an option if you can get JL to price match Costco. 
I chose the BP over the BE because of the improved grinder/increased number of settings. And it being a newer machine with more tech in!

Either way you will get something that makes a great coffee. Just get decent beans! So many people getting a decent machine then buying old stale beans.


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

hummel89 said:


> I don't think you will be missing out long term, maybe In the beginning when you are learning how it all works and pressure gauge gives you a good indication whether the shot that you are pulling is okay. However, long term it becomes a bit irrelevant since you will want to time it to get your exact volume of espresso out. I have a barista express myself. I do think that only way it makes sense to split is if you buy better grinder than Sage. So agree with @ajohn there.


 This is really useful and has influenced my decision. Thank you!


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> I've loved having my DTP, I've had it for around 4 years now.
> 
> But I've always suspected it's been underheating, and my best efforts at measuring the water temp seem to confirm this.
> I roast my own beans and have always preferred a darker roast, but now I am moving towards lighter roasts I was finding the DTP to be lacking there. I think the problem is slightly low heat as the same roast on my Gaggia which I measured at 92-96 tastes far better.
> ...


 4 years is very good but is that normal? Sounds slightly worrying but I don't know whether that's normal or not. Do you preheat your mugs? How do you measure the temp?


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

AvidBean said:


> 4 years is very good but is that normal? Sounds slightly worrying but I don't know whether that's normal or not. Do you preheat your mugs? How do you measure the temp?


 I suspect it's always under heated. 
I measured with a probe measuring water as it was exiting the group head.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If some one follows the Sage instructions on using the gauge on a BE it's a mixed blessing. I like strong coffee and make rather large americano so found that I was always using a higher pressure than they suggest. Where the gauge is useful is avoiding brewing at a pressure that causes rather a lot of water to finish up going into the drip tray when a shot is pulled. Who ever designed the machine put a blue sector on the gauge. Providing people stick in that little water goes into the drip tray or even a little past it. The machine is volumetric and too much water going in that direction will cause that to loose accuracy. Variation in grinds preparation can at some point as well. Once I learned a little about this and the machine I just used the button, no need for a timer. When I eventually checked shot time I found there was little variation. Odd shots took noticeably longer - probably me. This is no different to people weighing out really as when they do this shot time will vary. Doing that in terms of accuracy is probably more accurate but I found the shots out of the BE were consistent enough. I judge everything on taste not theory. The way I brew I can see variations of well under 5ml easily and know it was holding shots better than that.

The DTP is the same internally but no volumetric control and no 3 way valve. That releases pressure at the end of a shot and leaves a drier puck. I haven't noticed any comments about the lack of this causing DTP users problems. Not used one so can't comment. No volumetric control so it doesn't matter how much water is diverted to the drip tray.  It might be worth keeping an eye on it but not something to worry about. The float in the drip tray does tell people when to empty it without making a mess. The same one in a DB doesn't. They don't appear to make a float specifically for that so it needs emptying as soon as the top can be seen.

There is one reason for going for a separate grinder - machine upgrades. People do sometimes a lot sooner than they should. Upgrading one at a time spreads the cost and the SGP is not as bad as a lot would suggest. I see the Niche as being a really worth while upgrade from this. Beans can be weighed in on either of the Sage grinders. Initially all of what went in wont come out so more beans need to be added. Once that period is over I found it held to 0.1g other than when something is changed. Beans or a setting. This a lot easier than trying to set a timer to do the same especially if beans are regularly changed. Even when a timer is used the weight out needs to be checked because at some point the time will need adjusting.

Measuring the temperature of the water going through the grinds is rather tricky. It needs a thing called a Scace. An alternative to get some idea is to measure the temperature of the coffee. Not much info about but an Italian machine designer did mention something. High 70's low 80C's but a cold mug will mess that up so measuring the flow right at the portafilter could be better option but even then the portafilter needs to be hot. It should be at about 80C. I only found one sensible way of doing that and it made a lot of difference. I fitted an empty single pressurised basket and ran a shot through that and used a portafilter extraction tool off amazon to get it out then fitted the basket I intended to use. This also flushes the machine before use. Something thing that should always be done anyway.

So in many ways all of this is swings and roundabouts. I went for a BE because I wanted hot water for americano. The water could do with being a bit hotter really and none of Sage's machines make good mug/cup warmers so switched to some light single wall borosilicate mugs. Many people use a kettle.  The DB will make one10oz americano but any further ones will be too cold. BE - always the same.

Both machines need regular descaling. It's quick and pretty easy to do. Their engineers suggest every month and may well be correct in many areas of the UK. Some areas really need the use of suitable bottled water. Depends on how hard the tap water is. I suspect they supply a test strip with all of their machines now and may suggest using bottled at some level of hardness. This problem isn't unique to Sage. An alternative is some form of water softening that personally I would also check with test strips. Some are likely to be better than others.

The Classic is popular. Not owned one but people tend to do 2 things with them from reading around. Increase the brew pressure and soon start thinking about fitting PID which adds to cost. A kit is available on here. In some ways it is a more conventional machine than Sage's. Dual use single boiler. It probably does heat up the portafilter if it's left in the machine empty for say 10 to 15min. You would need to ask a user. Just as with these Sage machines there will be a delay going backwards and forwards between brew and steam. It can probably be descaled less often than a Sage thermothingy machine but probably takes longer and may be more complicated.

I'm not going in to using used commercial grinders and the possible choices and modifications. Usually when this area crops up some one does.  This post is already too long and I only have so much time available.

 Don't have time to check for my sometimes rather strange typo's either.

John

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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Bambino more likely to be based on barista pro rather than BE - due to 3 second heat up.

Don't assume you can just put BE/dtp baskets in to a bambino pf. The bambino pf plastic is not designed to be removed and is shaped to receive liquid from the centre only from the pressurised baskets.

And if you do manage to remove it like it did the metal is not shaped to flow liquid well eg the decline angle is low and it's a sharp angle to the exit spouts. Short answer - not viable unless you make it bottomless yourself, not the for feint hearted

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Bambino more likely to be based on barista pro rather than BE - due to 3 second heat up.
> 
> Don't assume you can just put BE/dtp baskets in to a bambino pf. The bambino pf plastic is not designed to be removed and is shaped to receive liquid from the centre only from the pressurised baskets.
> 
> ...


 I've read that the baskets are the same so if dual wall fit the single wall will as well. Also read that it's stainless as is the BE and DTP. If some one can see and handle them the difference between plastic and stainless or aluminium would be obvious.

It's also not designed in either case to receive high pressure jets from a central hole in a pressurised basket. They are a bit brighter than gaggia and have offset the hole a bit. The plastic inside a BE/DTP may be needed for that. It isn't on the DB which hasn't got one. The plastic is also not that easy to get out. Why bother anyway? Portafilters should be swilled after they are used anyway or finish up like many Pavoni ones do.

The BE and DTP portafilters have a plastic insert - 2 reasons as far as I can see. Noise when a pressurised basket it used and to help prevent the portafilter from taking heat out of the coffee. NVG in respect to heat but probably helps a bit but makes a lot of difference to noise when pressurised are used. I tried using a pressurised basket to preheat the DB's portafilter. It's a rather disturbing noise.

The only downside to the machines for me was restricted sizes of basket. Just the 2 that Sage supply or modify ones intended for la spaz. The mod involves reducing the rim diameter. Not an easy thing for some to do and I wish people the best of luck if they try to do it with pliers.

John

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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

The baskets will fit though that does not mean it's practical to use the standard bambino pf with be/dtp unpressurised baskets - it's not, for the reasons stated.

I own a bambino and am using a Pullman naked pf and be unpressurised baskets.

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> The baskets will fit though that does not mean it's practical to use the standard bambino pf with be/dtp unpressurised baskets - it's not, for the reasons stated.
> 
> I own a bambino and am using a Pullman naked pf and be unpressurised baskets.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Which good reason? There doesn't seem to be one other than if people choose to remove any plastic and that in practice is a little detrimental on ones that use it. Or maybe Sage are making pressurised baskets with a hole in the centre specifically for the bambino. In that case they would have to do what gaggia do or pulling a shot would make a mess.

There is one reason to change - it looks like one of a some bean to cup machine however some wont be keen on spending their money change unless their really is a reason.

On choice I would probably choose a bambino over a dtp on the assumption that it has a 3 way valve and is volumetric. Not many seem to make much use of the volumetric aspect and don't even realise it's there. Not mentioned on the BE any more and it would be extremely simple for them to remove it. Doubt if they have but ... They may also have done something about OPV output going to the drip tray and used a flow meter that can take these machines max brew pressure, unlikely without other changes.

I wouldn't comment on thermojet against thermocoil as haven't used one with a jet. There has been complaints about water temperature on the jets but as usual tests haven't been done sensibly and may well be down to misunderstandings and cold mugs after using water straight out of a still boiling kettle. Good way of wrecking any way of making coffee even instant.  Just putting the milk in first makes a difference.

If the baskets don't fit that would be a different matter but my recollection is that dual wall are a little deeper than single.

I can't stress enough how much getting the portafilter really hot changed taste on beans I use.

Another tip. Just repacked something from amazon for a return.  I really should take a photo of just how they were packed on some things.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Bambino more likely to be based on barista pro rather than BE - due to 3 second heat up.
> 
> Don't assume you can just put BE/dtp baskets in to a bambino pf. The bambino pf plastic is not designed to be removed and is shaped to receive liquid from the centre only from the pressurised baskets.
> 
> ...


Since it's now shipping with unpressurized baskets (unless you get one that was built before Sage started including them), I'm sure it'll work fine.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Not aware of them being shipped with unpressurised baskets - and if they were it would include different pf.

I am aware of Seattle coffee gear in the US opening the boxes and swapping the pf for a BE pf and including single wall baskets. They also include the be pf for the same reasons I mention

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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

kennyboy993 said:


> Not aware of them being shipped with unpressurised baskets - and if they were it would include different pf.
> 
> I am aware of Seattle coffee gear in the US opening the boxes and swapping the pf for a BE pf and including single wall baskets. They also include the be pf for the same reasons I mention
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 Love Seattle Coffee Gear. Could watch Gail review for hours!


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## Dodds25 (Dec 19, 2019)

AvidBean said:


> Do you think as a beginner I'd be missing out on the benefit of the pressure gauge by going with the DTP rather than the BE? Just wondering how I will tell whether I'm pulling proper shots without it.


 I have a BE and I've got to say I think the pressure gauge is a distraction at best. The whole machine seems to be designed around very long shots, so what is marked as the sweet spot is actually a pretty low pressure. There's loads online about how to dial in but you will probably end up with a formula like x grams of espresso from y grams of grinds in z seconds - you don't need to look at the pressure. As for the grinder, I find that it is only the last 3 stops that are any use and they're way too far apart, so I wouldn't rate that aspect either. With such large steps you have to adjust the amount of coffee to bridge the gap from one grinder setting to the next, which makes the included razor tool useless (it fixes the level of coffee in the portafilter). If you have space for a separate grinder then personally I think that's a better option. As others have said, you may find you want to upgrade sooner than you think. OTOH I don't find that the built-in grinder retains very much coffee (I think someone said above that it did). I'm not sure that comparing weight in and weight out really proves anything but I've tried stopping the grind after the first 5g or so comes out, and it doesn't smell at all stale even if the machine hasn't been used for 24 hours.


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

Dodds25 said:


> I have a BE and I've got to say I think the pressure gauge is a distraction at best. The whole machine seems to be designed around very long shots, so what is marked as the sweet spot is actually a pretty low pressure. There's loads online about how to dial in but you will probably end up with a formula like x grams of espresso from y grams of grinds in z seconds - you don't need to look at the pressure. As for the grinder, I find that it is only the last 3 stops that are any use and they're way too far apart, so I wouldn't rate that aspect either. With such large steps you have to adjust the amount of coffee to bridge the gap from one grinder setting to the next, which makes the included razor tool useless (it fixes the level of coffee in the portafilter). If you have space for a separate grinder then personally I think that's a better option. As others have said, you may find you want to upgrade sooner than you think. OTOH I don't find that the built-in grinder retains very much coffee (I think someone said above that it did). I'm not sure that comparing weight in and weight out really proves anything but I've tried stopping the grind after the first 5g or so comes out, and it doesn't smell at all stale even if the machine hasn't been used for 24 hours.


 This is interesting. So taking away the integrated grinder and bearing in mind the pressure gauge isn't necessarily needed, that's kind of pushing me more towards the Duo Temp.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

AvidBean said:


> This is interesting. So taking away the integrated grinder and bearing in mind the pressure gauge isn't necessarily needed, that's kind of pushing me more towards the Duo Temp.


 I'd agree. I'm swapping my DTP for a BP only for the temp control, but that's my DTP underheating. But to be honest I'm tempted to cancel my order and get another DTP. 
I have a la pavoni grinder so don't need that


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Not aware of them being shipped with unpressurised baskets - and if they were it would include different pf.
> 
> I am aware of Seattle coffee gear in the US opening the boxes and swapping the pf for a BE pf and including single wall baskets. They also include the be pf for the same reasons I mention
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 You still haven't come up with a reason for changing the portafilter other than aesthetics and removing the plastic insert which actually is a bad idea. It will help keep a shot hot. The reason I had an improvement preheating the portafilter is probably 2 fold. Less heat being taken out of the basket and probably more importantly the thermocoil getting to a temperature suitable for heating water that is actually flowing and the usual reason for flushing, heating up internals. I don't preheat at all using the DB. Tried it and it doesn't make any difference. This doesn't appear to be due to now using a bottomless portafilter.

As I've now put the new dog cage together a  and it fits in the car - baskets. A popular one for the smaller Sage baskets has been an IMS one for a La Spaziale machine. Not done that one but would assume it holds more coffee. One I have modified is intended for pods on the same machines and listed on ebay. It holds about 14g. This saves using doses that are too low in the Sage double. That results in very wet soggy pucks and can even mess up extraction. It also holds significantly more grinds than the single. The problem with that for my 10oz americano is that many beans are not strong enough. Conversely some are too strong with a sensible dose in the Sage double. I drink out of tall 300ml mugs and like strong coffee. They need tilting a bit to get under the spouts of both Sage machines I have used. The rim on these baskets is bigger than Sage's so has to be reduced. They are stainless so not easy to file off but it can be done by marking them off the portafilter and using a file or maybe an off hand grinder. If they finish up too big they wont fit. Sage are stupid really not making more basket sizes. It's pretty common for more experienced people to buy VST baskets to obtain 2g or so steps in size or some specific size.  They are rather expensive and of little use on a Sage DB as it uses an unusual fill height so may hold circa 2g or more than VST state. I've never found any need for a basket any larger on the double on the DB and it works well. Some beans benefit from a weaker drink as more flavours become noticeable.

I assume Gaggia use the larger 58mm size.  More swings and roundabout for many but if so it has more scope in this respect. Many just use the baskets that come with the machines what ever they are. In all cases there is a need to find beans that suite the drinker and working on the best way to brew them. The instructions in Sage manuals are rather poor in that area and often cause people problems. What matters is time and grams in to grams out adjusted to obtain a balanced flavour.

John

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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

I actually have the same dilemma, my BE is faulty and I'm returning it back to the retailer. I had a good week and a half with it learning and watching lots of videos. It was painful because I thought it was me doing something wrong before I figured out that the machine had something wrong but I did enjoy learning the art of espresso - I'm still new to this.

The issue I had was even at the machines' finest setting. I even changed the inside grinder burr to the finest. I would get a very fast flow. I don't know if it was the grinder or how the water comes out...

But now I don't know if I should get the DTP or the BE again. If only they sold the infuser here.


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

Julien Rashti said:


> I actually have the same dilemma, my BE is faulty and I'm returning it back to the retailer. I had a good week and a half with it learning and watching lots of videos. It was painful because I thought it was me doing something wrong before I figured out that the machine had something wrong but I did enjoy learning the art of espresso - I'm still new to this.
> 
> The issue I had was even at the machines' finest setting. I even changed the inside grinder burr to the finest. I would get a very fast flow. I don't know if it was the grinder or how the water comes out...
> 
> But now I don't know if I should get the DTP or the BE again. If only they sold the infuser here.


 Before I answer, which features are most important to you on your potential espresso machine?


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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

-Tristan- said:


> Before I answer, which features are most important to you on your potential espresso machine?


 I keep thinking to myself, if the BE wasn't faulty it would be a well suited machine for me just starting on my coffee journey. If it worked well, I think I would have kept it for some time. I'm not sure now I see why people want to upgrade.

My cousin who got me into it has had a La Marzocco mini for a while and that was his 1st machine with a separate grinder.

It's just the separate grinder bit which I'm having the dilemma about. I mean it would be the entry level SGP with an entry level machine vs the BE.

my cousin said not to bother about the pressure gauge which I've heard on this forum also


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Julien Rashti said:


> I keep thinking to myself, if the BE wasn't faulty it would be a well suited machine for me just starting on my coffee journey. If it worked well, I think I would have kept it for some time.* I'm not sure now I see why people want to upgrade. *
> 
> My cousin who got me into it has had a La Marzocco mini for a while and that was his 1st machine with a separate grinder.
> 
> ...


 I've been thinking the same thing. I started with a Gaggia classic. I moved to a sage DTP which produced a much better coffee than the Gaggia (mostly because back then I liked a dark roast and the lower temp of the sage (which was actually a fault) helped not over-extract the darker roast.

As my palate grew and I felt I wanted to branch out I started looking around, but I didn't really see anything I wanted. Then I went and stayed with a friend who had a BE. He also roasted his own beans (after seeing me do it!) a lovely kenyan peaberry, he's an absolute perfectionist so had spent many hours perfecting his technique and microfoam. He served me a wonderful cup of coffee. I immediately felt like I needed to in some way replicate it.

I went lighter on my roasts to retain more acidity, but I didn't really have any beans suitable, the peaberry is ideal for this, which is why he ended up sticking with it.

In addition the water where he was from is perfect for that kind of roast. It's got an odd hardness, lots of calcium and magnesium which are known to give the coffee more creamy and sweet notes whilst dulling the bitterness, albeit at the risk of the machine.

Anyway, I did end up upgrading. To a sage barista pro. So far I'm really happy. The grinder is surprisingly good and easily matches my la Pavoni Zip with its 60mm burrs (albeit as a much slower speed and some clumpiness which can be sorted with a bit of a stir)

Long story short I have realised from my experiments that the machine is only one part of the whole equation, and actually maybe a small part of it, unless you are a serious espresso connoisseur!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Julien Rashti said:


> I actually have the same dilemma, my BE is faulty and I'm returning it back to the retailer. I had a good week and a half with it learning and watching lots of videos. It was painful because I thought it was me doing something wrong before I figured out that the machine had something wrong but I did enjoy learning the art of espresso - I'm still new to this.
> 
> The issue I had was even at the machines' finest setting. I even changed the inside grinder burr to the finest. I would get a very fast flow. I don't know if it was the grinder or how the water comes out...
> 
> But now I don't know if I should get the DTP or the BE again. If only they sold the infuser here.


 The Infuser is sold in the UK. Just use google. Not much cheaper though so total will cost more. Curious thing about the BE is they sell a fair few of them and some people get on with them and we hear from a few on here who haven't. I suspect that part of the problem is people see espresso being brewed commercially. It isn't as simple as that brewing at home and often when people see espresso machines being used they are highly unlikely have seen one being set up. These sorts of places don't change beans very often either. Also if there is a selection of beans available each one is likely to be in a separate grinder. In some ways grinders are more of a needle in the haystack than the machine.

Another not obvious factor is typical fresh roasted beans. They are exotic types and picked and blended for tastes not directly related to what people assume coffee should taste like. Taste descriptions also often need some imagination when they are drunk.

Then comes Sage grinders. They are essentially the same where ever they are used even in the Oracle. Some experianced people have bought those and been impressed by the drinks it makes. One person messed them up and bought replacements and was surprised they were for the BE. The parts inside that get turned are the same in all of them, a sizeable worm wheel. Only the adjustment mechanism varies between types. If have put a lot of beans through both an SGP and the grinder in a BE. I'd be inclined to say that their isn't that much difference between the step size. The SGP has far more but rather a lot of them are not intended for espresso. Neither of them caused me problems once I had the basics sorted out. It seems some come from manufacture that haven't been set up correctly. Easily fixed if people check or report the fault and some one will come along and fix it. On the other hand I am serious about this I'm 90% sure we get some posts on the Sage subject that are from trolls that have never been near the machines or maybe use something else. Some see getting loads of replies as a big plus and give themselves 5 stars and go some where else and do the same. Another favourite that I have not seen here is bringing up old threads that have been answered years ago.

People eventually hear about micro / stepless grinders. Much to their surprise when they get there they are likely to find that making a 5sec flow change isn't as easy as they thought it would be also no setting aids that allow easy changes between a number of settings for different beans. Mostly /all one way or the other are not made for regular adjustment. Stepped grinders can be rather useful in this respect. Lots are also too big for a typical kitchen. Some people weigh beans in them knowing that this will cause taste changes. Some are more suitable for that than others. All cost a lot more than a Sage bought new and may cost more even when they are used.

There are also a few similarly priced grinders about. One I tried was sent back. Others I am aware of are IMHO not likely to give significant improvements.

There are some issues with all Sage machines. There ways of curing them and in real terms for what they cost I feel people will have a hard time beating them. Unfortunately I'm out of time. Other makes, similar prices no issues - afraid I don't think so even if people spend more.

John

-


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

THR_Crema said:


> Firstly what an amazing position to be in - buying your first espresso machine; such fun.
> 
> So I'm 3 years into owning a Barista Express and had the DTP before this (It was upgraded by Sage after the casing started to rust due to a one off fault). Great customer service.
> 
> ...


 Yeah it's a pretty exciting time!

Damn. That's first-class customer service isn't it. Where did the rust appear and after how long into owning it?

I think this is going to get pretty serious. Update though, since this post I purchased the DTP and SGP 

Interesting story as I definitely think the is a great beginner machine for me to start learning and tweaking with and actually. Very good machine for experienced baristas with a decent grinder too, for the money.

I didn't get the BE in the end as I did not hear terrific things about the grinder and heard stories of the beans getting hot. Most people steered me away from it and said I would be better off getting the DTP and separate grinder and I'm yet to regret it!

That being said, they may have been isolated incidents. I'm not sure. I have seen posts of people who have had their BE for over a year and are still pleased with it, but I won't be getting one. I was successfully scared off


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> I'd agree. I'm swapping my DTP for a BP only for the temp control, but that's my DTP underheating. But to be honest I'm tempted to cancel my order and get another DTP.
> I have a la pavoni grinder so don't need that


 Any update on this yet? Curious.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

-Tristan- said:


> Any update on this yet? Curious.


 I kept the pro.

After learning how the thermojet functioned and the need to generate a certain pressure/resistance to get the temp right it is now spot on.

I have been pleased with the grinder performance. It's mega slow compared to my la pavoni but I can live with that.

i now have my la pavoni set up for my current light roast and the pro grinder set up for a dark one.


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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

Yeah I'm pretty set on the BP (I think)

The faulty BE got sent back on Saturday and I have to admit, I miss it, even after just a week or so using it.

If I had more worktop space I would think more about getting the DTP and SGP - but I like the idea that the BP has recently come out and is like an updated BE. From videos I've seen, they say it's volumetric and not based on time so I'll see how that goes.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Julien Rashti said:


> Yeah I'm pretty set on the BP (I think)
> 
> The faulty BE got sent back on Saturday and I have to admit, I miss it, even after just a week or so using it.
> 
> If I had more worktop space I would think more about getting the DTP and SGP - but I like the idea that the BP has recently come out and is like an updated BE. From videos I've seen, they say it's volumetric and not based on time so I'll see how that goes.


 I'd still weigh the shot. I've not found the volume to be accurate because of preinfusion


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> I'd still weigh the shot. I've not found the volume to be accurate because of preinfusion


 @TomHughes Can you recommend a good scale to me? Haven't actually got one yet.


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## Scwheeler (Jan 13, 2020)

Not used for coffee but have found the sage Heston scale and it's cheaper little brother below to be very accurate.

Salter Ultimate Accuracy Dual Platform Kitchen Scale 1084, Black, 31 x 21 x 5 cm

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B06W5MRXHP/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_tai_OPkhEbSB29GAM


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

-Tristan- said:


> @TomHughes Can you recommend a good scale to me? Haven't actually got one yet.


Before I got a set of brewista2 on a Black Friday half price deal, I used this set for a couple of years. While they aren't waterproof, they've survived being drenched in coffee several times & are cheap enough to be replaced several times compared to more expensive sets. The only reason I upgraded to the brewistas was because they're rechargeable & the price was too good to miss.


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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

-Tristan- said:


> @TomHughes Can you recommend a good scale to me? Haven't actually got one yet.


 I always see the gear on Seattle coffee gear - the downside is it's American but still very good gear that's tested

https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/accessories/spoons-scoops-scales


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

-Tristan- said:


> @TomHughes Can you recommend a good scale to me? Haven't actually got one yet.


 I just use this 
`ducks for cover`

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01G-200G-Digital-Weighing-Scales-Pocket-Grams-Small-Kitchen-Gold-Jewellery/372805462184?epid=19028941032&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item56ccefe8a8:g:GeAAAOSwOeBdph1e&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVBhQALgbXQbPzzlx6zBsMveaxRxpY6LmZF9wOTtI%2BWJAI3nERkwuG1z%2F7g1nX3G8wmLMcs3qzZ7RKX5OAmW%2FQYz49PjkPJFOCrb5k6vZCtDqGcPYCbybqAgF4nEdQatK3i7s2p2FIAI0OmSq6uAmcr63cJfcY7yDEkaS%2FThH1Txjn2ikcEsburZHWOVvkuDWiPGZMLQW8UNQ1VMd%2FjP%2FjkLvWSIgdjc%2FTQdIuHVSj2SJ57HKhn61peVS0re%2Fw0eDdyyc9vYRjFL%2BlqVkwuY1ihP9S4xuyd0B87EWDWd18bpBW6BZm6Zh2jkd9dTL96Us9frzlNVvHv9zX5c1d%2FKkjSnNOwMw1R9Gef4TuWrxo%2BCMqUDCP5rRjeBWaL6vmejJJ5%2FEooLJWVEFZDl8Z9dcJ4ZD%2BSmkwOVqLKACJefrAoPuFifo0jxisYdfVX4%2FawdEZ8CWC2S5vYwABfkIa1wsCVRaGxxpFW94QncAoSvf5wirKqpomM0NzAANszDnRIcC2Eg42aogmuXvbPzPect7TdGOS%2BnnT1aqX6Jrm2TzO%2FXQC8VrE6%2Fp7y0rFR6v8MbO1Z2SbvjS9xGXNZo17bW0f1fnIgyDy%2BNwGI40H2N8NWWROuyH6dID2K8gSizBwLyxZ9amN%2Fb%2Fw7r79TPZTOKit6fDfwNEKrZYRvWK%2FEMHq5%2FEsfMDGOvAohE4%2BaPzs4BA3m57dFTHxeadnttdyhgH3SwOHthKl3JNScG1RG8OttBg%3D%3D&checksum=3728054621840b37108f043d4719ab74bccb9922c154&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVBhQALgbXQbPzzlx6zBsMveaxRxpY6LmZF9wOTtI%2BWJAI3nERkwuG1z%2F7g1nX3G8wmLMcs3qzZ7RKX5OAmW%2FQYz49PjkPJFOCrb5k6vZCtDqGcPYCbybqAgF4nEdQatK3i7s2p2FIAI0OmSq6uAmcr63cJfcY7yDEkaS%2FThH1Txjn2ikcEsburZHWOVvkuDWiPGZMLQW8UNQ1VMd%2FjP%2FjkLvWSIgdjc%2FTQdIuHVSj2SJ57HKhn61peVS0re%2Fw0eDdyyc9vYRjFL%2BlqVkwuY1ihP9S4xuyd0B87EWDWd18bpBW6BZm6Zh2jkd9dTL96Us9frzlNVvHv9zX5c1d%2FKkjSnNOwMw1R9Gef4TuWrxo%2BCMqUDCP5rRjeBWaL6vmejJJ5%2FEooLJWVEFZDl8Z9dcJ4ZD%2BSmkwOVqLKACJefrAoPuFifo0jxisYdfVX4%2FawdEZ8CWC2S5vYwABfkIa1wsCVRaGxxpFW94QncAoSvf5wirKqpomM0NzAANszDnRIcC2Eg42aogmuXvbPzPect7TdGOS%2BnnT1aqX6Jrm2TzO%2FXQC8VrE6%2Fp7y0rFR6v8MbO1Z2SbvjS9xGXNZo17bW0f1fnIgyDy%2BNwGI40H2N8NWWROuyH6dID2K8gSizBwLyxZ9amN%2Fb%2Fw7r79TPZTOKit6fDfwNEKrZYRvWK%2FEMHq5%2FEsfMDGOvAohE4%2BaPzs4BA3m57dFTHxeadnttdyhgH3SwOHthKl3JNScG1RG8OttBg%3D%3D&checksum=3728054621840b37108f043d4719ab74bccb9922c154


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## -Tristan- (Jan 2, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> I just use this
> `ducks for cover`
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01G-200G-Digital-Weighing-Scales-Pocket-Grams-Small-Kitchen-Gold-Jewellery/372805462184?epid=19028941032&_trkparms=ispr%3D1&hash=item56ccefe8a8:g:GeAAAOSwOeBdph1e&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVBhQALgbXQbPzzlx6zBsMveaxRxpY6LmZF9wOTtI%2BWJAI3nERkwuG1z%2F7g1nX3G8wmLMcs3qzZ7RKX5OAmW%2FQYz49PjkPJFOCrb5k6vZCtDqGcPYCbybqAgF4nEdQatK3i7s2p2FIAI0OmSq6uAmcr63cJfcY7yDEkaS%2FThH1Txjn2ikcEsburZHWOVvkuDWiPGZMLQW8UNQ1VMd%2FjP%2FjkLvWSIgdjc%2FTQdIuHVSj2SJ57HKhn61peVS0re%2Fw0eDdyyc9vYRjFL%2BlqVkwuY1ihP9S4xuyd0B87EWDWd18bpBW6BZm6Zh2jkd9dTL96Us9frzlNVvHv9zX5c1d%2FKkjSnNOwMw1R9Gef4TuWrxo%2BCMqUDCP5rRjeBWaL6vmejJJ5%2FEooLJWVEFZDl8Z9dcJ4ZD%2BSmkwOVqLKACJefrAoPuFifo0jxisYdfVX4%2FawdEZ8CWC2S5vYwABfkIa1wsCVRaGxxpFW94QncAoSvf5wirKqpomM0NzAANszDnRIcC2Eg42aogmuXvbPzPect7TdGOS%2BnnT1aqX6Jrm2TzO%2FXQC8VrE6%2Fp7y0rFR6v8MbO1Z2SbvjS9xGXNZo17bW0f1fnIgyDy%2BNwGI40H2N8NWWROuyH6dID2K8gSizBwLyxZ9amN%2Fb%2Fw7r79TPZTOKit6fDfwNEKrZYRvWK%2FEMHq5%2FEsfMDGOvAohE4%2BaPzs4BA3m57dFTHxeadnttdyhgH3SwOHthKl3JNScG1RG8OttBg%3D%3D&checksum=3728054621840b37108f043d4719ab74bccb9922c154&enc=AQAEAAACQBPxNw%2BVj6nta7CKEs3N0qVBhQALgbXQbPzzlx6zBsMveaxRxpY6LmZF9wOTtI%2BWJAI3nERkwuG1z%2F7g1nX3G8wmLMcs3qzZ7RKX5OAmW%2FQYz49PjkPJFOCrb5k6vZCtDqGcPYCbybqAgF4nEdQatK3i7s2p2FIAI0OmSq6uAmcr63cJfcY7yDEkaS%2FThH1Txjn2ikcEsburZHWOVvkuDWiPGZMLQW8UNQ1VMd%2FjP%2FjkLvWSIgdjc%2FTQdIuHVSj2SJ57HKhn61peVS0re%2Fw0eDdyyc9vYRjFL%2BlqVkwuY1ihP9S4xuyd0B87EWDWd18bpBW6BZm6Zh2jkd9dTL96Us9frzlNVvHv9zX5c1d%2FKkjSnNOwMw1R9Gef4TuWrxo%2BCMqUDCP5rRjeBWaL6vmejJJ5%2FEooLJWVEFZDl8Z9dcJ4ZD%2BSmkwOVqLKACJefrAoPuFifo0jxisYdfVX4%2FawdEZ8CWC2S5vYwABfkIa1wsCVRaGxxpFW94QncAoSvf5wirKqpomM0NzAANszDnRIcC2Eg42aogmuXvbPzPect7TdGOS%2BnnT1aqX6Jrm2TzO%2FXQC8VrE6%2Fp7y0rFR6v8MbO1Z2SbvjS9xGXNZo17bW0f1fnIgyDy%2BNwGI40H2N8NWWROuyH6dID2K8gSizBwLyxZ9amN%2Fb%2Fw7r79TPZTOKit6fDfwNEKrZYRvWK%2FEMHq5%2FEsfMDGOvAohE4%2BaPzs4BA3m57dFTHxeadnttdyhgH3SwOHthKl3JNScG1RG8OttBg%3D%3D&checksum=3728054621840b37108f043d4719ab74bccb9922c154


 I'm sure it does the job! I've heard Acaia scales are quite good but a tad too expensive for my liking.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

One of the Acaia claims is that they read the same where ever the weight is put on the platform.  I'm always a bit dubious about that sort of thing unless I see it. One model may have bluetooth or similar and an application to go with it to work out flow rates. Vaguely recollect seeing something along that line somewhere on some make. Visually out of a bottomless portafilter and maybe a look at a used puck is good enough for me. There is also a chinese knock off of the acaia. Not sure it is a knock of really. They may have done their own firmware for it. Probably no updates and still circa £100. The firmware in this range is aimed at getting rapid accurate readings. There is a chance that they are factory calibrated to improve linearity. Also likely to come with a higher standard calibration weight.

Low capacity 0.01g scales usually mentioning jewellery,  read drug dealers maybe as any real jewellery dealer will be using something a "little" more expensive. They can have problems because the load cell is fragile especially down in the 200g range.There is a Japanese brand that is reckoned to be a lot better but drug dealers have lots of money so the price hurts.That doesn't mean break just means for various reasons loose accuracy. I have had that problem mixing chemicals.

If some one searched this forum for scales suggestions and what was bought they would find that many bought the same as @ashcroc

I bought 500g scales. Fine until I needed to weigh higher. Some will if the initial weight is tarred out but are then being used over what they are rated for.

Auto turn off time can be a problem as well. For instance at the moment I need to check the dose coming out of the grinder as I have cleaned it so can need to add more beans to make up the weight. I needed to do that twice recently.

Bean weights limit how accurate a dose can be unless people split beans or spoon grinds in so personally I stick clear of 0.01g ones but they may make scales settle more quickly.

Interesting to see that some one has problems with Sage's volume mode. I'd suspect that it's the same reason that an ordinary BE can act up. The DB does if used in that mode but can be set for time.

John

-


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## Julien Rashti (Jan 9, 2020)

Hi guys, I just wanted to say I got the Barista Pro and tried it today, and I'm so pleased with it. I can really tell the difference to the BE I had, not just because the BE was faulty but you can tell the machine is updated. The manual is a lot clearer and they go into more details to achieve a good espresso.

It didn't take me long to dial the espresso in, very good machine.


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## Hall_lee (Apr 6, 2020)

-Tristan- said:


> Yeah it's a pretty exciting time!
> 
> Damn. That's first-class customer service isn't it. Where did the rust appear and after how long into owning it?
> 
> ...


 Hi. I'm in the same dilemma now, how are you finding the suo temp and the grinder ?


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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

Hi,

both set ups has theirs plus and minus but the end results will be very similar. Either way you go you won't be disappointed, sage coffee equipment is the best of the appliance type on the market. , anything above takes you to the pro world of coffee and anything below takes you back to the very bottom of the line. The beans are most important thing when making a coffee. I am a dtp and sgp user since two years and don't see any reason for change or upgrade. 
Regards ☕?


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## Hall_lee (Apr 6, 2020)

Tonino said:


> Hi,
> 
> both set ups has theirs plus and minus but the end results will be very similar. Either way you go you won't be disappointed, sage coffee equipment is the best of the appliance type on the market. , anything above takes you to the pro world of coffee and anything below takes you back to the very bottom of the line. The beans are most important thing when making a coffee. I am a dtp and sgp user since two years and don't see any reason for change or upgrade.
> Regards ☕?


 I'm thinking the dtp and ago also. At least of 1 breaks it's cheaper to replace and also upgrade In the future. I do like the idea of the express having it all under one unit


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