# Milk Quality as a marker of distinction in coffee



## SPW (Oct 22, 2016)

It's now commonplace to emphasise how important water quality is in speciality coffee - after all, it makes up most of the espresso.

But coffee shops, and most 'amateur Barista's', spend most of their time serving and making milk based coffee drinks.

In in a world of proliferating speciality coffee shops, there needs to be more than differences than 'cakes n kit' to differentiate the good from the better from the best.

Isn't milk one such thing? Surely using award winning milk from a local farm will benefit both coffee and diary makers? Can you even add a premium?

How often does one hear - "don't open a coffee shop to make money - well, especially from the coffee? Maybe that's another thread, but charging not much more than the big chains that sell vats of warm milk with chocolate sprinkles makes no sense at all!

Look at fashion - we pay for the quality, but we pay for the name and the imagination that makes the experience different for us. Speciality coffee shops confer distinction - but they don't make us pay for being part of the cognoscenti.... Premium products deserve premium prices.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This is where my local cafe sources it's milk from . It is very tasty .

http://www.stephensonsdairy.co.uk


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

In theory yes but in real life only a fraction of customers are willing to pay more for the difference. Running the business in a big city would help but I think the share would be the same.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

My local cafe uses organic local milk.

I've just started drinking raw milk from a local farm. Which is lush, but slightly variable for steaming. Also you can only sell it on the farm.

(And for any long term readers, yes I have/had a severe dairy intolerance...so not only is it delicious, it's magic!)


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

SPW said:


> Look at fashion - we pay for the quality, but we pay for the name and the imagination that makes the experience different for us. Speciality coffee shops confer distinction - but they don't make us pay for being part of the cognoscenti.... Premium products deserve premium prices.


The problem with a cup of coffee is that it is a commodity.

The fashion industry has quite clearly differentiated offerings: exclusivity and quality at one end (couture), affinity in the middle (bling brands), and at the other end speed and price (Zara / Top Shop). I don't think this is a helpful model.

Coffee isn't even like wine where taste-quality, longevity and rarity are well understood and can command value.

I have often thought that the best opportunity to drive up the price per unit is something akin to the 'celebrity chef restaurant'.

In such a model the barista is the star. The ability to choose beans and make outstanding espresso, using exceptional ingredients, in an attractive venue is hygiene nothing more. The barista has then to generate an outstanding and distinctive experience - that is the real value that will command a premium.

I'd go for the on the town crowd that is drinking less booze. I'd target couples on dates and parties like a cocktail lounge - I'd have the option to book a barista to serve you his signature drink and I'd set up a special center counter to do this like a floor show - something like a real Japanese sushi bar.

And I'd aim at the 'get dessert elsewhere' crowd by serving coffee with boozy knickerbocker glories and single origin chocolate in booths something like Jack Rabbit Slims. I'd get people to pour their own latte art with noises and awards for good work - something a bit like TGI Friday.

If this worked I'd eschew the morning commuter 'just give me caffeine solution' crowd and just open later for a brunch shift with eggs Benedict/Florentine, siphons and Chemex for table side drama, and a newspaper.

Cafes as entertainment and Barista's with groupies is the next evolution. Let them off the leash. They'll create a scene that will make people prepared to pay more.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Obnic said:


> The problem with a cup of coffee is that it is a commodity.
> 
> The fashion industry has quite clearly differentiated offerings: exclusivity and quality at one end (couture), affinity in the middle (bling brands), and at the other end speed and price (Zara / Top Shop). I don't think this is a helpful model.
> 
> ...


Book my table! I'd be there like a shot


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Obnic said:


> The problem with a cup of coffee is that it is a commodity.
> 
> The fashion industry has quite clearly differentiated offerings: exclusivity and quality at one end (couture), affinity in the middle (bling brands), and at the other end speed and price (Zara / Top Shop). I don't think this is a helpful model.
> 
> ...


If you want to go in to business obnic let me know. I can do the washing up


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> If you want to go in to business obnic let me know. I can do the washing up


I will dry!


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

MildredM said:


> Book my table! I'd be there like a shot





kennyboy993 said:


> If you want to go in to business obnic let me know. I can do the washing up





MildredM said:


> I will dry!


Oh you all sound like my wife. I really feel there's an opportunity here but I'm not in the U.K. Out here they do bean to cup underextracted horror.

Get some money together and hire Scotford and CoffeeChap you'd be scaling within a year I'm certain of it.

Bah! I'm so bored out here.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

But what about the introverted perfectionists?


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Don't know what you're laughing about Mildred, you and crank shaft Ian are on gelato duty


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Stanic said:


> But what about the introverted perfectionists?


Just give em the right audience and they'll be dancing disco in no time









Edit: Did I say 'they' I may have meant 'I'.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Please keep a journal while you're bored obnic and when you're back over here you won't need to crowd fund.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Obnic said:


> Don't know what you're laughing about Mildred, you and crank shaft Ian are on gelato duty


On your bike


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## SPW (Oct 22, 2016)

Many thanks for your very lucid and compelling argued reply.

I agree. Unfortunately, the prices are much the same even with a star barista - in Bath where Maxell Colonna Dashwood has is uk and world trophies on show; they have 3 espresso and 3 brew coffees with fasting notes for each bean and these six coffees are renewed each week. It's rumoured they make more money from selling cakes!!

i agree it's not like wine or even mid market fashion - but I still think it could be. And it should be. I'm not in the industry - but I hate to see huge passion, technical knowledge and sheer soul for speciality coffee not being rewarded properly.


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## SPW (Oct 22, 2016)

Sadly I agree. It strikes me that Scae and many in the best coffee shops have done a great job in promoting speciality coffee - and NOT educating the paying public. What happens with all the shiney kit is if no interest. The skill, knowledge and passion of Barista's and small shop owners are not being rewarded. A top top espresso is only 'a euro or two' more than in a mass market coffee chain.


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## SPW (Oct 22, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> This is where my local cafe sources it's milk from . It is very tasty .
> 
> http://www.stephensonsdairy.co.uk


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

SPW said:


> Many thanks for your very lucid and compelling argued reply.
> 
> I agree. Unfortunately, the prices are much the same even with a star barista - in Bath where Maxell Colonna Dashwood has is uk and world trophies on show; they have 3 espresso and 3 brew coffees with fasting notes for each bean and these six coffees are renewed each week. It's rumoured they make more money from selling cakes!!.


It's not right is it.

There's an opportunity here somewhere.

TGI Friday turned a pub (it's basically beer and chicken in a basket) into a premium priced product. I had a publican mate that did the same with a pub by bringing in a couple of sports clubs and live bands. In both cases the secret was 'the scene' more than what they served though.

You're right about SCAE too.


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

SPW said:


> It's rumoured they make more money from selling cakes!!


Simply not true. Sweets and pastries have a much lower GP% and margins than hot drinks, especially coffee.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

A rough guide is a cake selling for £2.70 has probably cost around 70p to buy. This is based on a bakery I know and a coffee shop selling the cakes and slices.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Everything is relevant, of course.

It doesn't cost much to place a cake on a plate, add a fork and napkin and serve. The cup of coffee obviously requires a heafty investment for the machine, grinder etc. before the actual cost of the coffee, milk etc are taken into account.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

MildredM said:


> Everything is relevant, of course.
> 
> It doesn't cost much to place a cake on a plate, add a fork and napkin and serve. The cup of coffee obviously requires a heafty investment for the machine, grinder etc. before the actual cost of the coffee, milk etc are taken into account.


But then that's the same case for the baker surely?

Difficult to hold much store by cost of machine & grinder, without them you have no business. They're not expensive in the respect that they need to be of a requirement to allow you to make enough cups for a viable business.


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