# Very cloudy brew water



## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Looking for some help and advice please. My Vesuvius (purchased new earlier this year) has started to produce very cloudy water from the main service (brew) boiler, i.e. serving the portafilter. I can't detect a taste but realise I must have drunk some of it, i.e. a few cups, before realising the cloudiness was not temporary. The cloudiness in the water does not clear, e.g. within an hour, but I'm in the process of leaving the jug shown below for several hours.

I've brewed no more than 1.5kg of coffee since purchase. I've cleaned the head a few times with an Espazzola, but apart from that have not yet carried out any other cleaning, apart from removing and cleaning the shower head weekly. No cleaning chemicals have been used at all.

I live in a very soft water area which produces no noticeable limescale on household appliances like kettles. I have been using a Brita filter jug (for better or worse), but don't see how its use can have led to the very considerable cloudiness in the brewed water.

I'd be very grateful for any suggestions or methods to diagnose the problem. Many thanks in advance, Ian


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Tank or mains filled?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Does the water clear after standing for a few minutes. If so, it's most likely to be air in suspension and not a problem.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Tank filled.



UbiquitousPhoton said:


> Tank or mains filled?


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

It does not readily clear. As I post now, it has been standing for an hour and shows no sign of clearing. I am fairly certain there is 'something' suspended in the water, but I don't know what it is or what the source could be. However, I'm fairly certain it's coming from inside the machine, because the water going in is completely clear. the cloudiness is fairly dense in the output water.



The Systemic Kid said:


> Does the water clear after standing for a few minutes. If so, it's most likely to be air in suspension and not a problem.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Suggest emptying the tank and filling with bottled water - something like Volvic - composition is good for espresso machines - and see if you still have the problem. That way, it will confirm whether the problem is machine related or not.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tap water isn't great, composition-wise, for getting the best out of your beans.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Thank you for this. I had already thought of doing this, and probably will do so. However, not wishing to prejudge the outcome, the water is so very cloudy and now consistently so, that I am fairly sure it's not the input water that is the problem. The output water is just too cloudy.

I'd welcome any more suggestions if anyone has ever had any similar experience. Many thanks again and for the suggestions so far.



The Systemic Kid said:


> Suggest emptying the tank and filling with bottled water - something like Volvic - composition is good for espresso machines - and see if you still have the problem. That way, it will confirm whether the problem is machine related or not.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Do you back flush? (Or am I missing the point that you can't?)


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

I haven't ever tried to back flush it. I do flush water through 'forward' without the pf in place every time I brew. I expect I should start to backflush as good practice to keep everything clean. But given that the water is very much white cloudy rather than dirty (coffee-coloured) cloudy, I'm thinking that the suspension in the water isn't a result of a lack of back-flushing? What do you think?

Really grateful for all the suggestions as I'm struggling here. My next step will be to drain the tank and get some Volvic (though won't have chance to do this until Wednesday probably).



MildredM said:


> Do you back flush? (Or am I missing the point that you can't?)


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Did the machine come with a blind p/f ?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

It sounds as if it is picking something up in the brew boiler. Is the water clear from the steam boiler ? If so it suggests contamination in the brew boiler and not caused by your water.

Contact Bella Barista and Dave c and ask for their thoughts.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Good point - yes the water from the steam boiler is completely clear. I'd overlooked mentioning it because I don't normally use it, but just given it a check. I wonder if you get the chance @DavecUK would you be able to give your opinion and offer advice - many thanks.



El carajillo said:


> It sounds as if it is picking something up in the brew boiler. Is the water clear from the steam boiler ? If so it suggests contamination in the brew boiler and not caused by your water.
> 
> Contact Bella Barista and Dave c and ask for their thoughts.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

who did you purchase from was machine sold by BB?


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Just checked - yes a blind pf is supplied. So I need to start using it! I will do so and hope to get the chance to do this tomorrow. It will definitely be worthwhile to start doing so regularly. I'm a little sceptical it will be the solution to this current situation, but I'll be very happy if I'm wrong. Thank you.



MildredM said:


> Did the machine come with a blind p/f ?


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

No, I bought the machine via the forum direct from ACS - I think it was in April or May this year.



DavecUK said:


> who did you purchase from was machine sold by BB?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Banjoman said:


> No, I bought the machine via the forum direct from ACS - I think it was in April or May this year.


Then don't contact BB, that's not going to go down well if you think hard about it....

You still have a warranty, e-mail ACS


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Thank you Dave. I will contact ACS later today or tomorrow.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Had a memory fault earlier, so couldn't continue my post...teach me to push the memory overclock so far.

The things to be armed with and also some interesting reading for ANYONE buying ANY new machine.

Always flush them out (both boilers) thoroughly first...it's always in my BB User Guides for most machines I test. Then always check the water is clean...this way if a problem develops.

1. You know it wasn't there from the starts (usually an important clue for diagnosis)

2. You were drinking clean water from the start (or relatively clean due to "new machine taste")

The water looks cloudy and it's hard to think what might be causing that, did you do the above when you got the machine and was it always clear, or is this the first time you have checked?

Does the water have any smell (other than normal)?

The first step should be to remove the cover on the bottom, and remove the heating element, then check carefully inside the boiler and on the heating element. The heating elements are sealed by O rings and will be easy to undo as they don't need to be on terrifically tight. Take photos if you can. The boiler contains 800ml of water....Loosen first and drain, then place machine on side on towel once fully drained and take out heating element and check inside boiler.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Thank you Dave,

Not sure if you're just giving general advice, but in my case, on first use I followed your both-boiler instructions in the Vesuvius user guide.

I do not believe there was a problem with cloudy water until recently, probably last few days. The cloudy water does not have any smell, nor an obvious taste, at least to me. I think it's possible I'd overlooked the cloudiness in the water for a few days, assuming it was just cloudiness following making a brew. On suspecting an issue, I ran water through the head with no pf in place, and after cleaning the shower screen, and found it to be very cloudy.

(On checking, I didn't actually receive the Vesuvius until July, and only started using it daily after the school summer hols.)


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Banjoman said:


> Thank you Dave,
> 
> Not sure if you're just giving general advice, but in my case, on first use I followed your both-boiler instructions in the Vesuvius user guide.
> 
> ...


Just general advice for others without the benefit of my guide. From what you have said it appears the problem has developed over time. This really only leaves a few possibilities.

1. Either something has got in (unlikely)

2. Perhaps a bit of sealant has broken off up stream, gone into the brew boiler and is decomposing under the heat and pressure

3. Or something I have not thought of


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> 3. Or something I have not thought of


Impossible.......!


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## Topshot (Oct 10, 2018)

Try emptying both boilers completely, it shouldn't be too hard a job with your machine.

Refill with a quality bottled water.

You might have to empty and refill several times to flush the boilers.

Then back flush with something like Cafetto a few times.

It will be time consuming, but it would be a good start.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Topshot said:


> Try emptying both boilers completely, it shouldn't be too hard a job with your machine.
> 
> Refill with a quality bottled water.
> 
> ...


Why would he need to empty both boilers, only the brew boiler is affected?


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## Topshot (Oct 10, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> Why would he need to empty both boilers, only the brew boiler is affected?


With due respect of your knowledge on coffee equipment, which is very vast. (I ordered a Niche Zero based on your review!)

If one boiler has cloudy water, the other might have some contamination as well.

If you are going to clean something, you might as well clean the whole thing, I'm a little OCD like that, plus a steam boiler is very easy to empty without using the heating element in under 30 seconds!


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

@ Dave c Possibly scale breakdown from welding process (not flux)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Maybe there are some goldfish in there, won as a prize at the funfair and discarded as an unwanted gift. Flushed down the pan into the sewers where they mutated into a heat resistant life form where they became miniaturised and crept back through the water system and also became invisible. I would empty the contents into a see-through bowl. turn the lights out and shine a light from beneath. Sprinkle a few ants eggs on the surface and look for shadow on the ceiling ......that would definitely discount that theory


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Maybe there are some goldfish in there, won as a prize at the funfair and discarded as an unwanted gift. Flushed down the pan into the sewers where they mutated into a heat resistant life form where they became miniaturised and crept back through the water system and also became invisible. I would empty the contents into a see-through bowl. turn the lights out and shine a light from beneath. Sprinkle a few ants eggs on the surface and look for shadow on the ceiling ......that would definitely discount that theory


It is probably the bits of plastic they have been eating while down there.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Maybe there are some goldfish in there, won as a prize at the funfair and discarded as an unwanted gift. Flushed down the pan into the sewers where they mutated into a heat resistant life form where they became miniaturised and crept back through the water system and also became invisible. I would empty the contents into a see-through bowl. turn the lights out and shine a light from beneath. Sprinkle a few ants eggs on the surface and look for shadow on the ceiling ......that would definitely discount that theory


That'll only work if you use a black light!


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Trying a series of things at the moment to resolve this with the help of ACS. Paolo at ACS is being very responsive and a great help.

One thing I want to try at the moment to see if it helps is backflushing with citric acid (as advised by Paolo). Can anyone recommend a good source for this, e.g. do the supermarkets sell it? Online searches suggest security issues have reduced its availability.

Thanks again.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Banjoman said:


> Trying a series of things at the moment to resolve this with the help of ACS. Paolo at ACS is being very responsive and a great help.
> 
> One thing I want to try at the moment to see if it helps is backflushing with citric acid (as advised by Paolo). Can anyone recommend a good source for this, e.g. do the supermarkets sell it? Online searches suggest security issues have reduced its availability.
> 
> Thanks again.


Amazon or anywhere that supplies homebrew equipment would sell it. It may also be available at pharmacies.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I usually get a Kilo if c/a from eBay when required. It lasts for ages and ages.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

@Banjoman

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/generic/citric-acid-descaler.html

Should last you a couple of years









John


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Make sure you've got some lubricant available before backflushing with any kind of detergent as you'll want to lube the cam afterwards. Is it easy to open up the machine for access to the top of the brew boiler? I descaled my expobar a couple of times through a fitting on the top, draining the boiler that way would eliminate the group from the equation and you can avoid unnecessary backflushing and lubing procedures. As Dave advised you to, I expect draining the brew boiler from the heating element might be your best option with the V. You should be able to look inside the boiler then with a torch to see if you've got scale (or just look at the heating element) if anything has made its way into the boiler you should be able to see it too.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Here I am nothing about your problem.

1 What you never backflush

2 Have you had the group head filter off.

3 Ashbeck is £1.10 for 5 litres.

4. What maintenance do you do.


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

An update - I decided, based on the extreme cloudiness of the water, that this could not be a cleaning issue, or a result of quality of water introduced by me into the machine. My only conclusion was there was something which had gone wrong in the machine. The only thing I could think of, and backed up by @Rob1 's comment above, was to drain the brew boiler and have a look inside. To cut a long story short, and with the help of @DavecUK and Paolo of ACS (makers of the Vesuvius), I took off the baseplate and unscrewed the heating element from the brew boiler. The heating element had ruptured. I got a new one from Paolo. I've just fitted it today and am doing final leak checks. It looks like everything will be fine now - huge relief!

I will post a new thread some time over the next few days to show what I did, so that anyone with a similar problem in the future will have something to go on.

I think I need to start ordering some more coffee ...


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Ah great news, kilo of the finest then,haha


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

My first espresso in about 5 weeks today:

Foundry Rio Magdalena 18g:40g in 26 seconds. Tastes really good, smooth and a bit of chocolate - on my second now as a long black 1:2 with water.

Machine now working perfectly with beautifully clear brew water!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Banjoman said:


> My first espresso in about 5 weeks today:
> 
> Foundry Rio Magdalena 18g:40g in 26 seconds. Tastes really good, smooth and a bit of chocolate - on my second now as a long black 1:2 with water.
> 
> Machine now working perfectly with beautifully clear brew water!


Keep an eye on it, it's very unusual for the elements to rupture, not impossible, but yours is the first I ever heard fail, they should last decades or longer really. Your machine is not that old *so you could have simply had a defective element*.

*One thing that can cause a problem in any dual boiler machine is low water levels in the brew boiler,* dual boiler machines don't have water level sensors in the brew boilers and therefore no good way of protecting against low water and it only needs part of the element to be out of the water, so the thermal sensor won't save you either. So this advice goes for ANY dual boiler machine. Low water can be caused by a leaking top brew valve (hence a leaky group from bottom vent), even if a machine is relatively new, there might be something trapped under it, or a leaky expansion valve (more water than usual in the tray is often a clue), basically anything that allows water out of the sealed brew circuit. A huge clue is ever the machine starts to take a while to get water out of an empty group, that time with the pump running but nothing coming out, could be because the boiler is filling...or strange pressure behaviour when brewing, due to a lot of air in the system. Sometimes any leak is so slow that you can't easily tell and issues only come after leaving a machine on for 10 hours and not pulling a shot. Lastly it could be a leak from the bottom of any brew boiler...although usually they leak when cold and seal up when hot.

It's not a common occurrence, but worth keeping a weather eye out on any Dual Boiler machine..along with checking underneath machine on a regular basis (monthly) for leaks.


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