# Giotto Evoluzione v2 flush times



## 7493

Just getting to grips with my shiny Giotto. The Pstat is set to go off at 1.1bar and on at 0.9bar. When I do a cooling flush there is no obvious steaming or 'water dance'. I'm after some guidance on what sort of flush length should I be going for? Both the first one when the machine has been warming for say 45 minutes and the flush for subsequent consecutive shots. Any thoughts would be much appreciated.

I've been doing 3-4oz for the first flush and maybe 2 oz for the subsequent shots. The coffee is good but it all seems a little unscientific.

I've also noticed that with the rotary pump the pre-infusion phase is much shorter because the pump pressure builds much faster than a vibe. This results in first drops out after around 4-5 seconds where the vibe was 6-7 seconds. Do I need to change shot length to take account of this?


----------



## DoubleShot

Have you read the in-depth 'closer look' article/review on BB website?

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/pdf/Rocket-Espresso-Evoluzione-v3.pdf

I'm presuming it's by our very own DavecUK? In it he mentions the Giotto Evoluzione v2 doesn't require as big a first flush as other HX machines. Unfortunately I couldn't see mention of how long to flush for or how much water to dispense. Think I've read a five second flush after your machine has warmed up prior to pulling your first shot?

Did a quick search and found this old thread:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?5365-Rocket-Giotto-Evo-Flush-volumes

Hopefully one of the other Giotto owners on here will be able to give you more detailed advice?


----------



## Wobin19

I have the same machine and installed a thermometer in the group. After a lot of experimentation, I have settled on a 5 oz flush and brew after 15 - 20 seconds. If there is say 2 minutes or so before next brew, then 2 or 3 oz for next flush. I use the flush to warm the cups.

I have always wondered if my machine is running a little hot, but was discouraged by knowledgable folk on here to fiddle with the pressure stat, so I left it well alone.

With mine, there is definitely a kind of gurgle spluttery sound when the water is clearly too hot at the start of the flush and the correct temp does seem to correspond roughly with when that sound changes.

Difficult to give exact guidance your machine as it is quite possible yours is not set the same as mine for pump brew pressure and pressure-stat, but hopefully this might point you in the right direction.


----------



## Thecatlinux

I am normally flushing 3-6oz if the machine has been sitting a while , I normally use the flush water to fill about 3 ounces in two cups and use this to warm the cups and I always flush for 1-2 seconds to clean the basket before I remove the portafilter, frankly never thought the cooling flush causes that much of an issue with the rocket and I always belive there is a big mis conception of HX machines being a load of hassle with cooling flushes. Although I have never measured the group with a scase (I am sure someone has ) I have never had any issues or concerns with temperature stability/consistantcy and always attributed that to the E61 group working how it should.


----------



## 7493

Thanks guys. I had of course read the 'closer look' but as you say it doesn't specify actual times. 5oz flush and brew after 15-20 secs is roughly where I am so it looks like I'm in the ballpark. I'm not getting any sputtering so I guess I might need a shorter flush.


----------



## krabster

thanks for all the above advice its helped me as well!


----------



## 7493

After experiencing some sour shots I had a word with Claudette at BB. The upshot was that, if you're not getting 'the water dance' when flushing then you probably don't need to flush. Cured my problem. Then I decided to experiment and upped the pressurestat a bit. Then I got the water dance etc. and the whole thing became a lot more of a problem. Put it back where it was and am now making coffees happily without the need to flush and there is still plenty of steam. (I do do a quick flush if the machine has been left for 30mins plus.)


----------



## frustin

after reading wobin's woes, I'm not going near my pressure stat. I dont get the water dance.

I spent about 350g of beans at the weekend down the drain re-dialing in my grinder. My coffee is starting to really taste nice now.


----------



## Jon

When you say 'Water Dance' do you mean the hissing-fizzy vibes?


----------



## Daren

Remove the portafilter, look up at the bottom of the group. The water should just flow from your shower screen. If it's "dancing" around all over the place then flush it until it stops - give it a minute to recover and you're good to go.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Machine idle for at least an 1 1/2 hours.

Squeaky handle as machine was back flushed with pullycal yesterday havent regreased IT yet.

painfull uploading to google https://plus.google.com/102291579038353047872/posts/Tozr6H36zdq

(click on the image )


----------



## Thecatlinux

I will measure the volume of water later so we can have the definitive answer to the question of 'How Much ?


----------



## Thecatlinux

volume of water for flush after idle for well over an hour equals 150ml


----------



## frustin

thats how much you have to run through before the spluttering stops?


----------



## Thecatlinux

frustin said:


> thats how much you have to run through before the spluttering stops?


yup


----------



## frustin

I think i'd want to get that fixed. Unless its a thing that happens after you've had them a while, mine doesnt do it. I'd be loath to run 125ml of water though it each time.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Hi there, sorry for bringing this thread back to life after a month. Are any of the Evo 2 owners here still having to deal with long cooling flushes? I just bought a Evo 2 last week and, whilst I am very happy with it, I wonder whether there is anything I can do to avoid running 150/180ml through the group for the "wake up" cooling flush. frustin, what's your boiler pressure set to? If this is not a lot to ask, could anyone who performs a very short cooling flush or none at all mind posting a video of what the water coming out of the group after the machine being idle for 1 hour or so?

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

Alberto.


----------



## Jon

I believe I have to still do a long one. Using an Erics as of tomorrow so hoping that will help answer the unknowns.


----------



## 7493

Since descaling mine I now have to do a flush of anything up to 4oz. Annoying but not a deal breaker. It's still set to 0.9 on 1.1 off.

I feel twin boiler coming on when I'm feeling flush.







(See what I did there?







)


----------



## frustin

My boiler is 0.9 and 1.1 as well.

I dont do a cooling flush though. How do you know if you need to do it? Water looks ok, i dont have any dripping or steam out of the head.


----------



## jlarkin

frustin said:


> My boiler is 0.9 and 1.1 as well.
> 
> I dont do a cooling flush though. How do you know if you need to do it?.


I thought it was essentially following these questions:

1. Q.Do you have a HX machine?

A. Yes:

Outcome - thanks you need to do a cooling flush. Just length and timing before shot might vary.

If you're happy with your shots though, then stick with what you do!


----------



## frustin

Whats the point of doing the flush though? If its not coming out in steam and the group head is set to the right temp, which it should be because i paid a lot of money for it







If I ran a flush the pressure would fall below optimum and so i'd have to wait for it to go back up again, in which case surely the water heats back up?


----------



## jeebsy

Did you do any reading before you spent all that money?


----------



## frustin

Thank you for your passive aggressive comment, I couldn't find the definitive flushing guide hence I do not do it.


----------



## jlarkin

frustin said:


> Whats the point of doing the flush though? If its not coming out in steam and the group head is set to the right temp, which it should be because i paid a lot of money for it
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If I ran a flush the pressure would fall below optimum and so i'd have to wait for it to go back up again, in which case surely the water heats back up?


You probably already understand it but to my understanding you have water sitting in a pipe in the brew chamber so it's very hot. When you pull a shot that water is likely to be flash heating the puck. Far as I'd seen the consensus is you need to flush and the debate is how best to do that. As I said though if you're already happy I wouldn't tinker with it.

I don't think losing pressure should be an issue with a flush, losing some temperature may be if you flush too long or to close to the shot. Home Barista had a good guide about it, with two different methods for flush.

The Eric thermometers may help but they're obviously extra expense (I bought one but haven't used it yet) and by the looks of things may drive you a little crazy as well.


----------



## 7493

If you don't have steam or bubbling water when you run it with the portafilter removed then you don't need a cooling flush. If it steams and bubbles, you do. I have no idea why mine went from the same happy state as yours to needing a quick flush after descaling.


----------



## frustin

lovely thanks. i'm not seeing steam or bubbling water.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Thanks Rob666 and frustin. Out of curiosity, how long do you warm your machine up for before the first shot? I am experimenting with the machine at the moment, and find that, if I heat the machine for 25 minutes, I don't need a cooling flush. However, if I heat for over 30 minutes, I need to do a 4oz cooling flush as steam comes out of the group head.


----------



## 7493

Hi pessutojr, pretty much the same as you now. But it used to be I didn't need the cooling flush even after an hour or so. I still don't know what has changed after descaling but something sure has.

Realised I haven't answered your question. I usually give it 20 - 25 minutes and then don't need a cooling flush. Any longer and I do.


----------



## frustin

I use a belkin wemo plug so I have it switch the machine on 1hr before I wake up in the morning. That way everything is up to full power for absolute certainty. Before I had one of those; I'd get up, go down stairs turn on, go back upstairs, teeth, shower, change, hair (4 hours), then go down and make coffee (about 1/2hour elapsed)

I dont flush. Water seems ok to me, no spluttering/bubbling, no steam venting.


----------



## 7493

frustin, as previously mentioned, if your machine doesn't emit steam, sputter etc. when run without the portafilter engaged then you don't need to worry about flushes. If it does, then you do.


----------



## frustin

yep, that's why i said i dont flush


----------



## pcvburgess

L


----------



## DavecUK

Rob666 said:



> Thanks guys. I had of course read the 'closer look' but as you say it doesn't specify actual times. 5oz flush and brew after 15-20 secs is roughly where I am so it looks like I'm in the ballpark. I'm not getting any sputtering so I guess I might need a shorter flush.


Flush about75-100ml (3-4 Oz) and change your Service boiler pressure to about 1.25-1.3 bar. 1.1 bar is too low, they have this habit of setting them that low from the factory and it's not good. It's done to give you a smaller flush, but then you get poor steaming, poor brew temp recovery for back to back shots and an accentuated temperature hump when pulling shots.


----------



## 7493

Interesting Dave! Thank you for commenting.

Since returning the Giotto to 1.1 bar I have needed to do a short cooling flush. (Maybe 3oz.) (I didn't before when it was also set to 1.1 bar.) If I up the pressure again I guess I'll need to do a longer one. I'm not short of steam and temp recovery seems OK to me in the absence of anything to compare with. Can't comment on the temperature hump since I have no means of measuring it.

My current feeling is that I'm getting results which please me and the rest of the family so I'm inclined to leave well alone.

I guess there is always the chance that the gauge calibration is off.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Flushing routine never seemed to be that much of a hassle , but I have noticed my bottled water consumption has drastically reduced . Plumbing in is the key to take away any hassle out of cooling flushes.


----------



## Wobin19

Thecatlinux said:


> Flushing routine never seemed to be that much of a hassle , but I have noticed my bottled water consumption has drastically reduced . Plumbing in is the key to take away any hassle out of cooling flushes.


What's your pstat set to? is it the default or have you adjusted to the suggested 1.25 to 1.3?


----------



## Thecatlinux

Wobin19 said:


> What's your pstat set to? is it the default or have you adjusted to the suggested 1.25 to 1.3?


Don't have the rocket any more , but I always kept it at 1.2 with no adverse effects , back to back drinks was never an issue .

TBH apart from dumping water I never found cooling flushes to be a hassle and after owning an HX machine I would have no worries about owning another and could never understand what all the fuss was about .

Small drip tray was another reason to plumb in .


----------



## Olliehulla

I have just bought the Giotto that Dave (coffeechap) was selling, I have all this to look forward to don't I!

Life was so much simpler with the Silvia...... lol


----------



## Wobin19

Thecatlinux said:


> Don't have the rocket any more , but I always kept it at 1.2 with no adverse effects , back to back drinks was never an issue .
> 
> TBH apart from dumping water I never found cooling flushes to be a hassle and after owning an HX machine I would have no worries about owning another and could never understand what all the fuss was about .
> 
> Small drip tray was another reason to plumb in .


Absolutely. The default is 0.9 on 1.1 off and the recommendation from Dave is 1.3 you had 1.2. Which sounds like a happy medium. Mine is set at the defaults still. Steam seems ok but a little under what my previous cherub was. I must say I don't find it a hastle flushing it's quick and easy and part and parcel of owning an HX. My coffee tastes good but a little more steam power would not go amiss potentially at the expense of needing a slightly longer flush. We all like a good tweak and it's good to share some experiences and thoughts in this. We all want to get the best we can out if our machines. I am going to increase my pressure stat setting at the weekend and see what happens and will report back. My lever is squeaking too so need to lubricate that soon as well.


----------



## Thecatlinux

Olliehulla said:


> I have just bought the Giotto that Dave (coffeechap) was selling, I have all this to look forward to don't I!
> 
> Life was so much simpler with the Silvia...... lol


You you won't have any issues here , and you should be up and running in no time , don't forget to post up some pictures when you get setup  everyone likes to see a rocket


----------



## Olliehulla

it's OK, I'm pretty handy/technical but if my lack of knowledge lets me down, DavecUK lives a couple of hundred meters away from me


----------



## Olliehulla

Coming from a PID'd Silvia I'm gonna miss the temperature control, how many of you guys are using the EricS group thermometer ? Worth the cost ?


----------



## Wobin19

Yep I have one. It's good as it takes out some guesswork. Once the routine is estabilised it does not add much. At the weekend I am going to turn up the pstat a bit so it will help to see what is happening. Personally I am happy to have it but suggest you get some experience with your machine first. Could be you feel there is no need for it.


----------



## Prusev71

Hi guys, had you observed some changes in your flush routine after you had increased your pressurestat to 1.2 - 1.3 bar as Dave had recommened?


----------



## 7493

Hi Prusev, I certainly did! By raising the pressure, you are raising the boiler temperature, therefore the temperature ohe water circulating in the thermosiphon and the amount of heat added to the brew water. Ergo, you need a longer initial flush and possibly a short flush for each consecutive shot.


----------

