# The right grind



## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

Hello!

I'm new round here so forgive me if I sound clueless.

I'm a huge coffee fan and have had my espresso machine for about 6 months, a Gaggia Classic (the newer 2015 model), which since purchasing I've read so many poor reviews about. It came with the pressurised filter baskets but I've recently changed to a commercial filter basket in an attempt to make REAL espresso. I do have a Krups grinder (again, something I've read very poor reviews about) so I've just purchased a Hario Skerton which had relatively good reviews for use with espresso, even though it's manual.

The only problem is, and it's the same problem I had with the electric Krups grinder, is anything that resembles an espresso grind just completely chokes my machine. The finest I can get my beans is something comparable to a moka pot grind. Although it doesn't taste awful (in fact, I quite enjoy it) I feel I am not getting the best out of my beans and enjoying the true espresso experience.

I have read in some places that the new Gaggia Classic doesn't produce as much pressure, which I thought may be the issue. I was wondering if someone can recommend trying anything else.

Thanks!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Do you have scales

Are you weighing your dose ?

A consistent dose is key to finding the right size grind

If your overloading a basket ( by eye ) the water wont be able to get through


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

I did used to weigh, about 16g I think. I worked it out to be about two scooped heaps so don't bother weighing anymore


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

I'm certainly no expert, but to me the basket doesn't look overloaded. It's probably just over the indent once tamped.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Joel said:


> I did used to weigh, about 16g I think. I worked it out to be about two scooped heaps so don't bother weighing anymore


You need to weigh your dose to 0.1g

Two scoops of coffee at one grind setting wont be the same at another grind setting or with different coffee

Set the dose - dial in the grind

Stick to a brew ratio

I know of know other way ( which i can communicate over the internet ) to help you achieve a consistent way to dose , dial in , or get a tasty drink

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

But would that explain why it's choking my machine?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Joel said:


> I'm certainly no expert, but to me the basket doesn't look overloaded. It's probably just over the indent once tamped.


Please wait for other advise if you wish ... but it will involve weighing your dose - i guarentee it


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Joel said:


> But would that explain why it's choking my machine?


It wont be helping

you need to change the grind to stop the shot choking

the dose needs to appropriate for the basket

the dose needs to be fixed each time ( to 0.1 g ) to understand the difference the change in grind is having

You may be over dosing your basket also

So it may not " fix it " but unless its stable we cant help you move on


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Joel said:


> But would that explain why it's choking my machine?


Because if you don't weight your beans you don't know how many beans you are trying to push the water through. You could be trying to push it through 18g of beans instead of 16g which you were used to when you weighed them. Get some cheap 0.1g scales from ebay and never look back.


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

It is far too late for coffee, but I just tried this - I weighed out 16g and selected a finer grind (unfortunately my scales aren't quite that accurate). And it worked! What a simple fix, thank you!

But I was left with a shot with quite a pale crema and not a great taste. Why would that be?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Don't weigh things, it's how they stifle your creativity... @Mrboots2u is working for "them" so don't listen to anything he, or anyone he associates with says...I think rule of thumb would be, simplify and systemise everything, so yes - get your scales back out of the cupboard, weigh your dose, your output & time it... All of these can be varied, but guessing is for mugs (mugs of instant) Rule out all the variables, you will know what you are looking at then, small differences will make a lot more difference than you think. AND ONLY CHANGE ONE VARIABLE!!!! Lol. (Change your grind, test, reflect, change again, test etc, keeping all other variables the same)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Joel said:


> It is far too late for coffee, but I just tried this - I weighed out 16g and selected a finer grind (unfortunately my scales aren't quite that accurate). And it worked! What a simple fix, thank you!
> 
> But I was left with a shot with quite a pale crema and not a great taste. Why would that be?


What was the weight of espresso you made in what time

Yes I want you to weigh your espresso now too









With what coffee ? And how old

What temp surfing process do you use ?


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Hey Joel

What scales do you have?

Ideally you need to be able to measure to .10g i.e 16.5g


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

I've only got cheap kitchen scales, I need to invest in some more accurate ones.

I just pulled a 2oz shot using 16g of coffee in 37 seconds.

Unfortunately using Lavazza beans (I'm sorry...)

The outcome was something that look rather nice, but does taste a bit too bitter.

As for temperature surfing and all that jazz, I am completely ignorant. I wait for the red light to come on and just smack it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You coffee Isn't great

There is better and fresher

Read the article I linked re weighing - your 16g into two ounces is more than likely over extracted

So bitter and a bit weak

Weigh in

Weigh out

Adjust

Don't worry about 2 fluid ounces ...

Focus on taste and how to get to tasty


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

Do you think I should try less water?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Joel said:


> Do you think I should try less water?


Please read the article I linked

Then come back and ask questions


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

The lavazza beans might be why your it didn't taste nice, better with freshly roasted beans (well about 1 week after roasting) Rave do some good cheap beans to help you master your technique, you might waste quite a bit getting the shot you want but def worth it.

+1 for weighing beans and shot to .1


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

Ok, so I used 16g of coffee to make 21g espresso in 33 seconds. It tasted nice to begin with, but then had a disgustingly bitter aftertaste.

I trued a lot shorter time just out of curiosity.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Try to hit more like 28-32g out in 28 to 30s


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

How would you recommend decreasing the time? Should I grind coarser?


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## Wobin19 (Mar 19, 2013)

Joel said:


> Ok, so I used 16g of coffee to make 21g espresso in 33 seconds. It tasted nice to begin with, but then had a disgustingly bitter aftertaste.
> 
> I trued a lot shorter time just out of curiosity.


To be honest, not surprising with poor coffee and a ratio like that. Seriously take the time to read the article boots linked and get yourself some decent beans . Sure you will get plenty of help here but do some ground work to get yourself at least pointing in the right direction.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Try to hit more like 28-32g out in 28 to 30s


From 16g dose aim for the above.

Read the article that Boots sent you the link on its good advice. It will make Lavazza taste as good as it can get.

Once you've got into the swing of it buy some fresh bean and it will taste one hundred times better.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Joel said:


> How would you recommend decreasing the time? Should I grind coarser?


Yes grind coarser slightly.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Yes grind coarser slightly.


What he said, or drop to 15g in and aim for 28-30g out in 28s


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

OK, so I went one step coarser (not a brilliant grinder) and it came out pretty fast. 50g espresso in like 20 seconds.

Would it now be best to increase the weight of beans? Or do as Xpenno said and use 15g of beans on the finer grind setting?

Sorry, I am trying, but this is all pretty new to me.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Joel said:


> How would you recommend decreasing the time? Should I grind coarser?


Finer grind = slower, coarser = faster, all other parameters remain same except for grind (to begin with) read Boots' guide, it'll move you to the next level 

So pick a weight (14 was standard for years 15 is good too...) and stick to it, change the grind. Not sure about the hario, there will be owners on here who can advise you though.


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

Ok so I've been trying lots of different combinations (only changing 1 parameter at a time).

My last shot was 17g of coffee, 39g of espresso in only 22 secs.

If I increase the grind setting by one, the shot takes too long to pour, even with 15g of coffee. Which only leaves me with one option (i think) - more coffee. But I feel as if I'm going to need a lot of coffee to increase the time from 22 seconds to something around 30?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

does this Classic come with a pressurised basket. Are there lots of holes or just a few? To slow the flow down, you either put more coffee into the basket to increase the volume or grind finer which slows down the passage of water, or to increase it is the opposite


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> does this Classic come with a pressurised basket. Are there lots of holes or just a few? To slow the flow down, you either put more coffee into the basket to increase the volume or grind finer which slows down the passage of water, or to increase it is the opposite


It does, but I'm using a non-pressurised.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The other thing is, fresh beans will have different characteristics to long life beans. To get the most out of your set up, do not be tempted to buy Lavazza, Illy and the like! If yu buy freshly roasted beans, and by that I mean you know the date they were roasted on and by the time you have drunk them, try to make sure they are not older than say 6 weeks. That is not set in stone as theres actually no definition of what fresh means according to Trading Standards but it would not be considered wrong to presume beans older than about 6 weeks will be staling.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Joel said:


> OK, so I went one step coarser (not a brilliant grinder) and it came out pretty fast. 50g espresso in like 20 seconds.
> 
> Would it now be best to increase the weight of beans? Or do as Xpenno said and use 15g of beans on the finer grind setting?
> 
> Sorry, I am trying, but this is all pretty new to me.


In that case, I would go back to the previous grind setting and lower the dose to 15g


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

What grinder are you using. That's a big jump in next setting.


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

urbanbumpkin said:


> What grinder are you using. That's a big jump in next setting.


I'm using the Hario Skerton.

I tried 15g on the finer setting, and ended up with 27g in 30 seconds.

I also tried 14g and got 34g in 30 seconds, which is probably the best tasting shot I've produced so far.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

'I also tried 14g and got 34g in 30 seconds, which is probably the best tasting shot I've produced so far'

This is where you need to be aiming then, taste is key and what works for one man on his machine/grinder may not work for you.

Take notes, mental or paper, it doesn't matter.

When you want to tweak that ratio try dosing up in your basket keeping the grind and tamp the same, are you using the stock double basket?


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

I'm using a double basket from Coffea online. I think it may be made by Gaggia, not too sure.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I would suggest upping to 16-18g 14g for me always seemed to little.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Joel said:


> I'm using the Hario Skerton.


I found with the Porlex / Hario you'll get a click setting in a vague ball park but the setting up or down is way out (as it's a stepped grinder)

The only way to adjust it is to increase or lower the dose.

I have heard of people using a nylon locking nut that you can get from B&Q to get the in between grinds but have never tried it.

Hope this helps


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

or you can use something like this

http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/porlex-newbie-needs-grind-setting-advice-t19674.html


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## Joel (Nov 2, 2015)

So I've purchased some fresh beans (only roasted two days ago) and have been having a play around.

I've been using 16g coffee to make around 30g of espresso in 28-30 seconds and it tastes pretty good (still using the Skerton).

Thank-you for the advice!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Joel said:


> So I've purchased some fresh beans (only roasted two days ago) and have been having a play around.
> 
> I've been using 16g coffee to make around 30g of espresso in 28-30 seconds and it tastes pretty good (still using the Skerton).
> 
> Thank-you for the advice!


Glad you've found an improvement . It'll change pretty rapidly over the next few days as it de-gasses, (normally tend to start making espresso about a week after roasting) So don't panic if you need to adjust the grind fairly rapidly in the mornings!


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