# Profitec flow control device



## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Looks like a the bianca pedal able to control pressure in the group via restricting flow. Does anyone know if this will be available in the UK and adaptable to other e61 machines? The comments seem to indicate it is only available to Profitec and ECM owners.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

That would be a great mod for people. Can't see why that wouldn't be universal fit for all e61 groups? Amazing that the basic 50'year old design allows for such a simple change with so much impact.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

The posts in the HomeBarista forum suggests that the device is exclusive to WLL and you must have bought an ECM/Profitec machine from them.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Looks like a great little mod for e61 owners.

Looks like a nice lathe project for someone with a bit of spare time.


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Surprised if it is this simple, i wonder why no one has produced a generic one. I guess the genius of the Lelit idea is that pump pressure stays constant while group pressure changes.

Due to the different methods between the Vesuvius and Bianca, does anyone know if there is difference in the cup from pressure profiling?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

It's flow profiling vs pressure profiling. The original patent for the E61 group had a needle valve in the top of it. I guess it's only a matter of time until these are developed for other machines in the form of generic kits. Someone has to jump on the opportunity to make the cash from it.


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Yes i realise its flow profiling, but it results in pressure profiling, no?



Rob1 said:


> It's flow profiling vs pressure profiling. The original patent for the E61 group had a needle valve in the top of it. I guess it's only a matter of time until these are developed for other machines in the form of generic kits. Someone has to jump on the opportunity to make the cash from it.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

M_H_S said:


> Surprised if it is this simple, i wonder why no one has produced a generic one. I guess the genius of the Lelit idea is that pump pressure stays constant while group pressure changes.
> 
> Due to the different methods between the Vesuvius and Bianca, does anyone know if there is difference in the cup from pressure profiling?


Flow and pressure are related - control one and you get the other. The Vesuvius controls automatically on pressure, the Bianca is manual control so the user decides whether to target pressure or flow. Manual control means it is less accurate and not easily repeatable, but far more versatile.


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

I have a Profitec 600 so could someone explain what kind of advantage I am going to gain by having this mod fitted to my machine or am I just being a bit thick!!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

mark8805 said:


> I have a Profitec 600 so could someone explain what kind of advantage I am going to gain by having this mod fitted to my machine or am I just being a bit thick!!


The "issue"/characteristic/feature with a pumped machine is it very quickly goes from zero to full pump pressure. If you use this gate to slow the increase / decrease from

Zero to full, you can emulate the softer approach to extracting that you get with a lever / Vesuvius etc.

Should allow for a better extraction. Maybe less chance for channeling? Or just buy a spung lever machine and get all these features as standard


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

rob177palmer said:


> Should allow for a better extraction. Maybe less chance for channeling? Or just buy a spung lever machine and get all these features as standard


That, and you don't need to figure out how to set a lever profile on V .

I'm not sure you can get a lever style shot on an E61 machine due to declining temperature profile. The pressure profile would be stepped on V as well, I'd imagine?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

PPapa said:


> I'm not sure you can get a lever style shot on an E61 machine due to declining temperature profile. The pressure profile would be stepped on V as well, I'd imagine?


Depends how you set the V up.


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

Interesting. Can you explain the temperature profile difference between a lever and e61? And effect on taste?



PPapa said:


> That, and you don't need to figure out how to set a lever profile on V .
> 
> I'm not sure you can get a lever style shot on an E61 machine due to declining temperature profile. The pressure profile would be stepped on V as well, I'd imagine?


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Lever holds the water in the group waiting for the spring to push it through the puck, so the water cools slightly towards the end of the shot. As I understand it, the cooler water doesn't lead to overextraction towards the end of the shot. The change is a progressive, let's call it linear (albeit that it simplified) reduction in temp and pressure throughout the shot.

On an E61 you are exposing the puck to full temp and full pressure throughout, which is a more aggressive way of extracting the puck.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

rob177palmer said:


> Lever holds the water in the group waiting for the spring to push it through the puck, so the water cools slightly towards the end of the shot. As I understand it, the cooler water doesn't lead to overextraction towards the end of the shot. The change is a progressive, let's call it linear (albeit that it simplified) reduction in temp and pressure throughout the shot.
> 
> On an E61 you are exposing the puck to full temp and full pressure throughout, which is a more aggressive way of extracting the puck.


It's always difficult to know anything really, simply because there is so much misinformation as well as supposed information out there. Then everyone is different, they don't all want the same experience or drink the same drinks. Some of them couldn't taste the difference between 1 machine and another one grinder or another or one coffee and another...some can even drink the stuff from Starbucks and like it!

I think people buy what they like the idea of....very little real world testing of machine performance is done by manufacturers (much less than people realise) and unless there are double blind tests on things, it's hard to say how much better one thing is over another. At the end of the day opinion, influencers, social conformance and brand play a huge part. Hence terms like



> As I understand it, the cooler water doesn't lead to overextraction towards the end of the shot


Usually because deep down most realise this and that's what people feel comfortable saying.


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## Rakesh (Jun 3, 2017)

Would be great if this fitted the minima, I know the minima's e61 group is a little different from the standard ones but definitely be fun to try out some flow profiling. Like others have said I suppose it's only a matter of time until someone releases a 'generic kit'.


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## lucas (Nov 14, 2018)

I've read an article on DCN that they will only be releasing it outside US in a year


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

If I could fit one of these to the minima I would love to give it a go.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> If I could fit one of these to the minima I would love to give it a go.


 People have been installing the ECM Kit and Lelit kit on various machines in the USA.

How you get the kit - is proabably direct from Lelit . I don't know if it will work on your machine, perhaps post on that thread and ask if anyone has had success with it .

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/who-wants-to-bianca-fy-their-e61-grouphead-interest-survey-t54540-120.html


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> People have been installing the ECM Kit and Lelit kit on various machines in the USA.
> 
> How you get the kit - is proabably direct from Lelit . I don't know if it will work on your machine, perhaps post on that thread and ask if anyone has had success with it .
> 
> https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/who-wants-to-bianca-fy-their-e61-grouphead-interest-survey-t54540-120.html


 Thanks for that. Will have a look into it. From the diagrams on first-line it looks like it wants a lever activated E61 but I will have a proper look over the weekend as that might just be because 90% of E61 machines don't use a solenoid like the Minima.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> Thanks for that. Will have a look into it. From the diagrams on first-line it looks like it wants a lever activated E61 but I will have a proper look over the weekend as that might just be because 90% of E61 machines don't use a solenoid like the Minima.


 Part of the issue on other machines has been how the paddle is able to rotate fully given the design of the machine . Space around the mushroom of the e61 to the casing .


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Part of the issue on other machines has been how the paddle is able to rotate fully given the design of the machine . Space around the mushroom of the e61 to the casing .


 It should work fine on the Minima group. In fact probably better than on the Bianca in terms of maintenance and longevity!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I'm really hoping the Minima has sold well enough for ACS to bother making something like this as an optional upgrade. The pressure gauge is already in the right place for it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> I'm really hoping the Minima has sold well enough for ACS to bother making something like this as an optional upgrade. The pressure gauge is already in the right place for it.


 A pressure profiling option has been discussed. There are 3 ways of doing it.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Tease.


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Makes me want to kind of hang on until the Minima mk 2 arrives?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

nicholasj said:


> Makes me want to kind of hang on until the Minima mk 2 arrives


Surely the all bells & whistles version would be the Maxima.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

nicholasj said:


> Makes me want to kind of hang on until the Minima mk 2 arrives?


 You have a very long wait, a MK2 is not planned. Perhaps the meaning of optional upgrade wasn't clear?


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

It may sound like a stupid idea but to have the opportunity to enjoy the 'best of both worlds' - pre-programmed pressure control based flow control and manual but continuous flow control based pressure control - could a device like this be installed eventually on a Vesuvius as well?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

adamkovacs1126 said:


> It may sound like a stupid idea but to have the opportunity to enjoy the 'best of both worlds' - pre-programmed pressure control based flow control and manual but continuous flow control based pressure control - could a device like this be installed eventually on a Vesuvius as well?


 I'm not sure, it "could\2 allow pressure profiling at different flow rates.....and I would guess some interesting results. I just have not got around to fitting one to the Vesuvius yet, too busy. the gear pump does really back off as the pressure is lowered, so flow of course goes down. Although the pump might just try and push harder against a smaller "giculeur" to maintain the pressure at the puck. It's interesting though isn't it....just a lot of money (and time) for an experiment.

The biggest problem is that the flow through a coffee puck once things get going is really only 2-3ml or so per second.


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> I just have not got around to fitting one to the Vesuvius yet


 Meaning that the ones on the market should be compatible in terms of fitting?



DavecUK said:


> Although the pump might just try and push harder against a smaller "giculeur" to maintain the pressure at the puck.


 Does the pump get its feedback to continuously adjust to the pre-programmed pressure directly from the brew group?



DavecUK said:


> The biggest problem is that the flow through a coffee puck once things get going is really only 2-3ml or so per second.


 I am not sure I understand you here, do you mean that you would not see a significant difference anyway? ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

adamkovacs1126 said:


> 1. Meaning that the ones on the market should be compatible in terms of fitting?
> 
> 2. Does the pump get its feedback to continuously adjust to the pre-programmed pressure directly from the brew group?
> 
> 3. I am not sure I understand you here, do you mean that you would not see a significant difference anyway? ?


 1. Probably, possibly

2. It uses a pressure sensor measuring the pressure in the entire system

3. Dunno, perhaps, perhaps not....

The fun is in the experimenting......you might find it opens a new dimension to profiling....or not.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

The Vesuvius measures pressure upstream of the restrictor so fitting a variable restrictor would confuse it and the resultant pressure at the puck would be an unpredictable mess. 
Of course you could program the pump to give a constant pressure and then the flow control would work fine.


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## adamk (Jan 8, 2020)

Nikko said:


> Of course you could program the pump to give a constant pressure and then the flow control would work fine.


 You mean programming the pump to have a constant rotational speed which gives me the desired constant pressure without the flow controller right? Since if I would just set a constant pressure profile the pump would go crazy anyway due to the feedback when I vary the flow and hence change the pressure... I may be wrong but this is how I can imagine it ?


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

adamkovacs1126 said:


> You mean programming the pump to have a constant rotational speed which gives me the desired constant pressure without the flow controller right? Since if I would just set a constant pressure profile the pump would go crazy anyway due to the feedback when I vary the flow and hence change the pressure... I may be wrong but this is how I can imagine it ?


 The Vesuvius pressure sensor is between the pump and the restrictor so it does not know what the pressure is at the puck. With a standard restrictor the pressure drop across the restrictor is not too great so the Vesuvius just ignores at the expense of accuracy.

with a variable restrictor the pressure drop across it could be very significant so the pressure at the puck would be all over the place. If you can control the pump to a constant pressure then it should behave like a Bianca.


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