# First lever options



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I'd like to get a lever after 3 years of pump machines - mainly e61.

I don't really need steam though would be nice for the odd time I make guests something - very rare.

My motive is for espresso taste - and I like the idea of having to follow a careful ritual to get the best out of the machine.

It will be paired with a niche.

It has to fit under kitchen cupboards on the kitchen worktop - even better if it can be refilled without moving it out. Even better than that if it can be plumbed in though more on that below.

Will only be making 1 or 2 cups a week, maybe more if I get back in to decaf.

Budget fairly flexible though I think my biggest constraint is size. I don't want the lever to be sticking out blocking the cupboards doors opening.

I sort of was most interested in a la Pavoni though could you guys tell me if it can make an espresso as tasty as a londinium if you get it right? Also the recommended model would be appreciated, and if it needs any further mods or kit eg gauges or cooling etc.

I want to get in to it properly like missy mentioned on another another thread about the pleasure of the process.

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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

Speaking from my experience with a La Pav, I'm not convinced it can make an espresso as tasty as a Londinium. I have rarely had shots from a Londinium, and I've never owned one myself, but I have to imagine that with all the additional engineering and technology there must be a whole lot more control on the Londinium.

One of the big downsides for the La Pav for me was the noise when it hits pressure. I was so delighted when I got the Decent Espresso machine because it was so much quieter! Two shots in a row? Forget it unless you can be very clever with releasing the pressure. Otherwise you get exploded puck everywhere. Likewise if you're nearing empty in the tank and you forgot about it - the pressure in the boiler is dangerous so you can't just unscrew the lid and top it up.

It did make tasty shots on the regular. The total control over pressure was a boon because you had some control over extraction. I made excellent shots with Crankhouse's Decaf that way, and I've never quite replicated it with my DE1.

If you have the budget and the space I would leapfrog the La Pav and go for a Londinium.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks, good insight - the exploding pucks do not sound nice!

You got good shots though and that's my main aim - interesting to here if anyone who's owned both can comment

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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

We have some Bezzera Stregas arriving in January. They do a plumb in version with line pressure pre infuse. The lever may obstruct cupboards though but I think a Londinium would too?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yeah. Which is why wanted to avoid londinium really.

Been doing more YouTube viewing. I love all the little techniques with the LP though don't like it moving all the time when securing portafilter etc

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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

You should have a go with a Pavoni especially if you're only making a few coffees a week. The Europiccola is all you need and the only thing extra you'll have to buy is a temperature strip and a tamper. Buy one second hand and if you don't like it on you can sell it.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Cheers. So you don't think it's worth getting the pro with the bigger boiler and other bits.

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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Cheers. So you don't think it's worth getting the pro with the bigger boiler and other bits.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 The only difference is a larger boiler and the pressure gauge. These machines overheat so without cooling the group with a cold towel you're not going to make more than 2 shots in a row and the Euro can probably do 3 if you're not steaming. The pressure gauge I is nice rather than necessary and if you decide you want it, you can buy them for £35 and they'll be easy to fit.

The proffesionals don't come up as often and cost a fair bit more. No matter which model you buy, if you're getting it second hand, you're not likely to lose anything if you decide to sell.


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## Bolta (May 11, 2014)

Have a look at this open boiler espresso machine:https://shop.strietman.net/product/ct2-espresso-machine.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Bolta said:


> Have a look at this open boiler espresso machine:https://shop.strietman.net/product/ct2-espresso-machine.


 Ohhhh wow....that's ☝ one tasty looking machine.

i love the LP and nearly bought the copper/brass one, but the only thing that i thought spoilt the looks of it was "the Eagle" (YMMV), that and the fact i knew i (n the missus) would be drinking mostly milk-based drinks, which ruled the LP out for me/us. My Londinium wouldn't fit under any of my cupboards without the lever "catching the doors" so this had to have it's "own space".....luckily we were re-vamping the kitchen so this machine got said space to itself (nothing above the lever) at the side of the sink-draining board (previously occupied); which made it easier to plumb it all in.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I'd go with a europiccola and see how you get on, exploding pucks are really a non issue just release the portafilter slowly if you're going back to back. It's strange how toy like they feel after using an e61, however it doesnt have an impact on taste IMO. The cremina takes the moving around problem away, they sit solidly in place and are still small they also handle overheating better although don't eliminate it. Finding one may be problematic.

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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

KTD said:


> I'd go with a europiccola and see how you get on, exploding pucks are really a non issue just release the portafilter slowly if you're going back to back...
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I have to respectfully argue it's not a non-issue. I absolutely agree that if you can do it slowly enough then you can survive without mess, but if you make coffee with anything other than normal focus (first thing in a morning, for example) then you're going to forget. You go a couple of weeks without doing it because you're careful, then you release too quickly and puck flies everywhere and you remind yourself not to be so stupid next time. For a couple of weeks at least...

For me, it was a hassle that impacted on the wider experience. YMMV, of course.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Strange I must have made a few hundred back to back shots and probably had it twice, whether it's model specific or an issue with technique when locking in I'm not sure.

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## CaffeeX (Oct 2, 2016)

The exploded puck "issue" is a non-issue for me, all it takes is wait a minute until the pressure disappears...


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

With regards to exploding pucks, portafilter sneezes or whichever other designations, specially related to the Europiccola: either wait a little bit or lift the lever slightly to dissipate the pressure. It's a non issue with back to back shots.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> Cheers. So you don't think it's worth getting the pro with the bigger boiler and other bits.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 the Europiccola is absolutely fine. I had both side by side once. I sold the Pro and kept the "little one" (Piccola). 👍

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/34775-la-pavoni-europiccola-vs-professional/?do=embed&comment=681912&embedComment=681912&embedDo=findComment

I also have a spare single hole steam tip which didn't fit on mine, but apparently fitted others. It's a Nicknak one. If you do buy one, let me know and I'll send it to you. 👍


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@kennyboy993 - Love my little La Pav, with the brew pressure gauges and heat sinks you can get a fair bit of control. Can do about 5 shots no steam before it empties. If you grab the lever near the group it stops any turning etc., damp tea towel sorts the temp easily.

The Londinium or Stregas are all 30kg+ massive lumps, fab machines but not under cupboard friendly especially if you couldn't fit in a hopper less major from what I remember. I would avoid plumbed in, only 1-2 a week doesn't seem like enough flow, I would be worried about dead areas and contamination.

Maybe get a second hand La Pav, see if you like it and wait until the fabled compact Londinium comes out? You might be happy with the Pav though as they make nice coffee and not want to bother with another upgrade.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> the Europiccola is absolutely fine. I had both side by side once. I sold the Pro and kept the "little one" (Piccola).
> 
> I also have a spare single hole steam tip which didn't fit on mine, but apparently fitted others. It's a Nicknak one. If you do buy one, let me know and I'll send it to you.


Thanks pal, that's a great offer cheers. I'll let you know when I do it. Good tip re pro or not too, think I'll go for the europiccola then

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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks northern-monkey and everyone - this is exactly the sort of real world insight I was hoping for.

Makes me more confident it would a good move as I'd be joining what is clearly a large and enthusiastic community

I'd like the usual naked pf, precision basket, nice tamper, distribution tool etc - all these available for that little group?

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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks pal, that's a great offer cheers. I'll let you know when I do it. Good tip re pro or not too, think I'll go for the europiccola then
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 The one I had was a 2012 model. It was in really great, mint condition. @AJP80 bought it. I think he even installed a PPK on it too.

Also @kennyboy993 - don't get too set on one or the other. Both will be fine. Keep an eye on the secondhand market and see what you can get your hands on. Think @Dave double beanmanaged to get one almost brand new on a very good deal. He's overhauled it since 🙂


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks northern-monkey and everyone - this is exactly the sort of real world insight I was hoping for.
> 
> Makes me more confident it would a good move as I'd be joining what is clearly a large and enthusiastic community
> 
> ...


 All the stuff is available Kenny. Take a look here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53323-2012-la-pavoni-europiccola-chrome-base-single-hole-steam-tip-ims-shower-screen-plus-accessories/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=759263&embedComment=759263&embedDo=findComment#comment-759263


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ah perfect! Thanks Alberto

Oh I love that adaptor for the niche cup too, will add that to the list

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> I have to respectfully argue it's not a non-issue. I absolutely agree that if you can do it slowly enough then you can survive without mess, but if you make coffee with anything other than normal focus (first thing in a morning, for example) then you're going to forget. You go a couple of weeks without doing it because you're careful, then you release too quickly and puck flies everywhere and you remind yourself not to be so stupid next time. For a couple of weeks at least...
> For me, it was a hassle that impacted on the wider experience. YMMV, of course.


I wonder if there's a difference between new and older machines? I've not had a single explosion, though I keep waiting for it! Similarly with the noise at pressure, mine is silent? A brief hiss and then gentle silence. It gurgles gently as I lift the lever. Certainly much quieter than running a vibe pump!

That said... If I had all the pennies would I buy a londinium or one of those flashy vostock things I'm trying to not think about too hard? Of course I would. But the europiccola has pleasantly delighted me and is perfect to do a few espressos a day (2-6) and an occasional milk drink.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Love mine.
I was seriously considering a MaraX till I got one but couldn't be happier. 
I love the manual feel of the lever, the ability to control shots on the fly based on feel. 
Yes, you can pressure profile or flow profile with fancy machines, but can you do that on the fly based on feedback you are actually getting from the shot? I doubt it.

I was thinking this the other day, coffee doesn't really *need* pressure for extraction. If it did we would get terrible cups from pourover. So the pressure in espresso is because of the limited time given for extraction I guess?

Anyway, with the lever (and the PPK, although you can do it by feel) you get the choice to play with this, on the fly so to speak. My tastiest shots recently have come from a find grind, tamped very light. Long pre-infusion, then when the drips start forming a slow ramp up to 3-4 bar, holding here for maybe 30 seconds, then a small ramp up to 8-9 bar for about 15 seconds, then back down to 3-4 bar to slowly complete the shot over maybe 1.5 minutes or 2 minutes including pre infusion. 
The shots have a sweet balanced flavour with tonnes of body. Very little crema, which just adds a bitter note.

This is even in coffees that are very fresh, 3-4 days post roast. I doubt most machines could do that with such subtlety.

Combine this with using a manual grinder, which actually informs me before the coffee goes in what I am going to attempt, based on the feel of the torque required on the lever of the grinder. i.e. if it requires tonnes of torque, indicating a hard bean I am going to ramp the temp and maybe pressure up. Hit it with 96C pre infusion and ramp up to maybe 10bar in the middle phase.


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## RDC8 (Dec 6, 2016)

I would second the LP EP. After pulling a fair few shots there are a few things I have learned along the way:

1: takes a bit longer to dial-in the shots. Less forgiving than a pump-driven alternative

2: basket is smaller than a standard DS basket, which means a smaller volume drink is produced. I only drink milk-based drinks so use less milk accordingly

3: if steaming milk - swap out the 3-hole wand tip that it comes with. That will make your life easier

4: heat your mug/cup with boiling water before pulling your shot into it

5: don't pull two shots from the same puck

6: once it is pressurised it sits there nice and quiet (thermostat kicks in occasionally when pressure drops as it cools down a bit). Pressure can quickly be released by opening the steam tap

7: in my experience, it's not a problem doing two back-to-back shots. Don't know about any more in succession as never needed to do that. Boiler is good for three to four shots before needing a refill.

The only time I have had an exploding puck is when the grind was too fine to get any water through so I removed the portafilter before lifting the lever slightly to relieve the pressure. Learned that lesson the hard way.

Once you nail it, the LP EP makes an awesome espresso.

Good luck with your next adventure


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Fantastic info, keep it coming! I can then just use this thread to get everything I need and perfect my technique. 
@missy can I ask what model you have?

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

The basic europicolla. I looked carefully online and went to play with a few and decided other than wooden handles and easy to retrofit (if needed) gauges there was little difference.

This one

https://dancing-goat.co.uk/shop/la-pavoni-europiccola-en/


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Missy said:


> The basic europicolla. I looked carefully online and went to play with a few and decided other than wooden handles and easy to retrofit (if needed) gauges there was little difference


Thanks so yours is completely standard with temp strip perhaps?

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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

The only thing I would advise against is accidentally opening the boiler cap when the machine has not fully de-pressurised (Even though the gauge was down at 0). 
This resulted in a water volcano and needing to re-paint the newly painted kitchen! 
Wife not amused.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

kennyboy993 said:


> Thanks so yours is completely standard with temp strip perhaps?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yep. No temp strip yet I keep forgetting to order one. I am just sort of guessing (shhhh!)

It also has a hole in the cap so you don't accidentally open the lid as it hisses if there's pressure.

The handles are frankly naff but I preferred the idea of getting my own in a colour I like down the line. There are a huge amount of mods you could get which is also appealing, whether I bother will depend on how I feel!


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## Coffee by the Casuals (Sep 15, 2020)

Missy said:


> I wonder if there's a difference between new and older machines? I've not had a single explosion, though I keep waiting for it! Similarly with the noise at pressure, mine is silent? A brief hiss and then gentle silence. It gurgles gently as I lift the lever. Certainly much quieter than running a vibe pump!
> 
> That said... If I had all the pennies would I buy a londinium or one of those flashy vostock things I'm trying to not think about too hard? Of course I would. But the europiccola has pleasantly delighted me and is perfect to do a few espressos a day (2-6) and an occasional milk drink.


 Very good point about older machines! Mine was from 1973...


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Coffee by the Casuals said:


> Very good point about older machines! Mine was from 1973...


I'd love to know what noise it's making! I do understand a lot of the changes over the years have been to reduce some of these issues (eg a small hole early in the boiler cap thread means it warns you safely if there's too much pressure) my dad is horrified I've bought machine that was flash in live and let die!


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

That bond clip where he uses the pav is heartbreaking

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

KTD said:


> That bond clip where he uses the pav is heartbreaking
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Don't you make yours like that? I've been using it as my guide to perfection


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## matted (Sep 30, 2019)

To throw another couple of options in:

Cafelat robot ( I am biased towards this as my new machine)

Flair pro 2

Aware of a londonium owner who has said the espresso from their robot is pretty close.


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## sumatra (Oct 3, 2018)

Missy said:


> I'd love to know what noise it's making! I do understand a lot of the changes over the years have been to reduce some of these issues (eg a small hole early in the boiler cap thread means it warns you safely if there's too much pressure) my dad is horrified I've bought machine that was flash in live and let die!


I think the noise on the old machine comes from the pressure release valve. The newer model comes with the pressurestat which cut the boiler once it reaches certain pressure. The old models with 2 switches (low and high) doesn't have pressurestat so the element doesn't turn off and the pressure release valve vent the pressure while the element continuesly heating the boiler. This makes noise.

So if the OP concerns about noise, my suggestion is to get the newer machine with pressurestat as they are very silent.

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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

matted said:


> To throw another couple of options in:
> Cafelat robot ( I am biased towards this as my new machine)
> Flair pro 2
> Aware of a londonium owner who has said the espresso from their robot is pretty close.


Hmmm the cafelat looks very interesting.

Anybody else tried one of these and had super tasty?

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## AndyDClements (Aug 29, 2016)

That looks very similar to a Baby Faema


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## matted (Sep 30, 2019)

kennyboy993 said:


> Hmmm the cafelat looks very interesting.
> 
> Anybody else tried one of these and had super tasty?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 https://www.home-barista.com/levers/cafelat-robot-user-experience-t54550.html

311 page thread on the robot

For a bit of reading (shortish pages) 😁


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## matted (Sep 30, 2019)

Also see

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/41258-cafelat-robot/#comments


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

matted said:


> Also see
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/41258-cafelat-robot/#comments


Thanks matted, they seem a great piece of kit - have been reading your posts great to see how happy you are.

Need to have a think about how often I'd want to steam milk for guests then this and LP both good options.

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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Done more research on the LP and the robot as I really like both - for different reasons.

One thing that I've read - the Robot does perform better with a preheat even though it states it's not necessary.

Workflow is important to me - one of the reasons why I've discounted the flair. Can anyone vouch for preheat need on the robot?

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## matted (Sep 30, 2019)

kennyboy993 said:


> Done more research on the LP and the robot as I really like both - for different reasons.
> 
> One thing that I've read - the Robot does perform better with a preheat even though it states it's not necessary.
> 
> ...


 Hi, I would respond on this in a couple of ways.

first, from my experience (limited i would say in terms of comparison as I have no exp of a londinium), I dont always pre-heat, but it is very easy to do so, and I generally feel I enjoy a pre-heated shot but have enjoyed plenty of non-preheated ones 😁

second - ref to the measuement comparisons on the home-barista thread showing some if somewhat marginal differences, and/or the temp stability of pulling multiple shots (as measured and video'd by paul pratt)

https://www.home-barista.com/levers/cafelat-robot-temperature-tests-t65550.html

others suggest there is a difference between lighter and darker roasted beans, but I can't say I have encountered that.

There are other coffee fanatics out there who have both LP and a robot - I dont know if you are able to contact them for another opinion.

reflecting on the above, I might be repeating myself 😉


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Thanks matted - glad you referenced the HB thread too, I did see that.

Really like the purity and elegant design of the robot - and the portability

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## Morningfuel (May 19, 2016)

I'm biased but love the robot, and have had mine for about a month, used every day for 3-5 shots per day (we get through coffee!).

Obviously, if you need to steam milk it fails. Don't bother looking. But steaming milk only changes the texture - you can still warm milk in other ways, you just lose the deliciously velvety texture (which is very important to a lot of people!).

If you are happy just warming milk and not worrying about the texture... It's perfect. No descaling, so easy to use (distribution is so easy because of the basket height, you can just shake it around or stir as you please), temperature management - honestly, I'm drinking medium and slightly dark roasts (I tried a mahogany roast and it wasn't for me!), preheat is not needed at all. Most importantly for me, cleanup is a doddle and I make back to back shots no troubles.

The pressure gauge is great but honestly... Not really needed if you know what you want. I'd recommend it because it's fun to see what's happening, and I tend to pull my shots at 6-8 bars, rather than aiming for 9.

Cons are obvious - you need a kettle, you need to do the work (which any lever needs) and you can't steam milk. It's not cheap, but I'd say it's great value and, honestly, it's perfect for me.

I'm going to be trying some lighter roasts soon - not filter light, but maybe the square mile, or a James gourmet espresso. I don't believe I'll need to preheat - worst case scenario, I can probably just go longer for a 1:3 ratio and be very happy.

Currently drinking coffee compass cherry cherry - brilliant coffee, but I just prefer my espressos chocolatey I think. I have no trouble getting delicious fruit flavours out and the flavour is absolutely equal to what I'd get in a good cafe.

But I'm biased because I have one.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Great info, cheers.

Good to know preheat isn't compulsory

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