# Should I buy a used “first run Londinium 1”, or buy new LR?



## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

I am new to espresso machines, although I have used the Pavoni (with good success). I prefer the more Italian style espresso, yet I don't often find a great one to be had in most cafes these days. It is time to make the espressos I like at home (& for our guests, as well). I want to avoid future machine upgrades, so my question is, do I go for a used Londinium 1 (interested in one I saw that is advertised as a "first run Londinium 1"... & what exactly does "first run" indicate?) or do I forget the used, save up & buy a new Londinium? Thank you for any insight or guidance you can provide.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

The newer R will have more flexibility with the transducer capability and the impending phone application to adjust pre infusion pressure. But I guess it also depends on price, whether you have a preference for a certain type of roast and whether the adjustability is worth it for you.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deidre said:


> I am new to espresso machines, although I have used the Pavoni (with good success). I prefer the more Italian style espresso, yet I don't often find a great one to be had in most cafes these days. It is time to make the espressos I like at home (& for our guests, as well). I want to avoid future machine upgrades, so my question is, do I go for a used Londinium 1 (interested in one I saw that is advertised as a "first run Londinium 1"... & what exactly does "first run" indicate?) or do I forget the used, save up & buy a new Londinium? Thank you for any insight or guidance you can provide.


 If you are dark roast loever get the l1 , the adjustable pre infusion isnt gong to have a huge impact or advantage on the kind of roasts you enjoy .

@coffeechap thoughts?


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Medium to medium dark is my roast choice, so far.

What adjustment for preinfusion is tolerated on the Londinium 1, or to what extent could I preinfuse on the L1 as compared to the LR? I would not want to find I had restricted myself, and then needed to upgrade in a year or two, should I then decide I wanted to use a different roast level. (I have preinfused with the Pavoni, using medium dark roast, and like the result.)

Difficult to predict my taste in the future of my espresso making, and therefore difficult to suggest, I suppose, but I ask anyway. ?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

I'm using a second gen L1 with light beans and get bags of flavour from it - the L1 will give you great results with light and dark roasts. I have no yearning to upgrade to an LR (yet). The biggest difference with L1's is that the panels on the original are screwed on whereas the second gen has pop off panels. There may be other differences that I've forgotten.

Preinfusion on the L1 is achieved when the lever is pulled down. Length of preinfusion depends on when you release the lever - that's your only adjustment.

I guess the answers you'll get (on the whole) for L1 vs LR will be based on the kit that the respondee owns (nobody wants to be told they have an ugly kid and all that).

To get the best out of either you will need a good grinder. Factor in a good chunk of money for this, unless you already have a capable grinder.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Deidre said:


> What adjustment for preinfusion is tolerated on the Londinium 1, or to what extent could I preinfuse on the L1 as compared to the LR? I


 Think you're mixing up pre-infusion time and pre-infusion pressure. On the original L I, pre-infusion pressure is set to 1.1 bar. You can't change that. The length of time you allow pre-infusion to take place before releasing the lever is something you can play with up to a point but are in the 5-10 sec range normally. The L R has a rotary pump so the pressure at the puck can be varied but is factory set to 3 bar at the puck but adjustable up to a max 6 bar pressure at the puck. This gives you a great deal of flexibility to play with.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

working dog said:


> I'm using a second gen L1 with light beans and get bags of flavour from it - the L1 will give you great results with light and dark roasts. I have no yearning to upgrade to an LR (yet). The biggest difference with L1's is that the panels on the original are screwed on whereas the second gen has pop off panels. There may be other differences that I've forgotten.
> 
> Preinfusion on the L1 is achieved when the lever is pulled down. Length of preinfusion depends on when you release the lever - that's your only adjustment.
> 
> ...


 Great info, thank you.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

I started out with a Fracino for a few weeks but when the chance came to get a "fir﻿st run Londinium 1" I jumped at it.

Now, 3 or 4 years later?, I still feel I have no real reason to buy anything else because paired with a Mythos and with my penchant for natural Ethiopian beans it still delivers what I want.

 There are still a lot of ways to alter the taste profile but these mostly relate to time and truth be told I have thought of other machines but the bottom line is getting one would only be so that I could experience for myself any differences.

The simple operation, consistency and overall ease of use are what attracted me in the first place. The ability to play with a fully modded LR would be just that for me.... play. In fact I would probably prefer to get an L1P (or whatever it is called these days)


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

@grumpydaddy, thank you, this is all helpful in my decision.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Think you're mixing up pre-infusion time and pre-infusion pressure. On the original L I, pre-infusion pressure is set to 1.1 bar. You can't change that. The length of time you allow pre-infusion to take place before releasing the lever is something you can play with up to a point but are in the 5-10 sec range normally. The L R has a rotary pump so the pressure at the puck can be varied but is factory set to 3 bar at the puck but adjustable up to a max 6 bar pressure at the puck. This gives you a great deal of flexibility to play with.


 Generally speaking, how long does it take for drips to appear in the cup at 3 bar with normal shot parameters ? Interested to understand if the higher pressure forces the coffee through quicker


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

working dog said:


> Generally speaking, how long does it take for drips to appear in the cup at 3 bar with normal shot parameters ? Interested to understand if the higher pressure forces the coffee through quicker


 Wil be a result of dose and grind tho


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

At 3 bar, my pre-infusion times can vary from 2/3 secs to 10 secs plus. Once lever is released and full pressure applied, shot tends to be complete in 25-35 secs at 1:2 -1:2.5 ratio.


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

working dog said:


> Generally speaking, how long does it take for drips to appear in the cup at 3 bar with normal shot parameters ? Interested to understand if the higher pressure forces the coffee through quicker


 With the same dose it still varies wildly from bean to bean, I suspect mostly as a result from changing the grind.

I've had anything from 4-5 seconds to 15seconds


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Wil be a result of dose and grind tho


 Yep - I was thinking 15 in/30 out in 30 seconds. Probably should've put that rather than normal shot parameters


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Interesting. Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.

I'm not saying that preinfusion is the same, or that this is the only difference between the machines but has anyone done side by side pours with the same bean on both machines and timed the first drops. I guess that there aren't many with the space and luxury of having both machines on the bench so its a long shot.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

working dog said:


> Interesting. Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.
> I'm not saying that preinfusion is the same, or that this is the only difference between the machines but has anyone done side by side pours with the same bean on both machines and timed the first drops. I guess that there aren't many with the space and luxury of having both machines on the bench so its a long shot.


The two machines are almost definately using a different grind to reach similar saturation times.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

ashcroc said:


> working dog said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.
> ...


 Correct.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> working dog said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting. Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.
> ...


 Time for a lie down. I hadn't considered that


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

I have a 2nd gen L1 and love it. However the old L1 has a vib pump whereas the LR has a rotary. The L1 sounds like someone shaking a biscuit tin with nails in it whereas the LR sounds like a lift. In terms of coffee, I don't need a better machine, but I'd love a quieter machine.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I've got a first version L1 (which is what I assume 'first run means? mine was off the second production run end of 2012 but identical to the first run) and am very happy with it. I use light roasts too.

The answer id say depends on price being asked, what you're willing to pay etc. The side panels really aren't an issue, I've taken mine off maybe 3 times since I bought it. It should have had new seals on the piston at least once I'd have thought but check when they were last done and factor that in if its needed. Maybe a new shower screen and seal too and you're good to go.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

NickR said:


> I have a 2nd gen L1 and love it. However the old L1 has a vib pump whereas the LR has a rotary. The L1 sounds like someone shaking a biscuit tin with nails in it whereas the LR sounds like a lift. In terms of coffee, I don't need a better machine, but I'd love a quieter machine.


 Then you need an L1 (old L1-P) 

(or multiples thereof , 2 arms=2 levers ?)

All this talk of pump noises..

John


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

working dog said:


> Interesting. Sounds like the pressure (1.1 vs 3(variable) bar) doesn't have a huge impact on the time for the puck to be saturated as I see similar times.
> 
> I'm not saying that preinfusion is the same, or that this is the only difference between the machines but has anyone done side by side pours with the same bean on both machines and timed the first drops. I guess that there aren't many with the space and luxury of having both machines on the bench so its a long shot.


 I have both at the mo


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

johnealey said:


> Then you need an L1 (old L1-P)
> 
> (or multiples thereof , 2 arms=2 levers ?)
> 
> ...


 Or just plumb in the L1 he has and it's silent!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Ok my thought for what it's worth, and having used every iteration of the Londinium machines is this. If your preference is for darker roasts stick with a used gen1,2 or 3 L1, they all do essentially the same job with minor changes internally on all of these machines. They are boiler fed pre-infusion, which means the pre-infusion pressure is limited to what you set the pressure stat to and when you pull the shot on the element cycle, but essentially your realistic maximum pre-infusion pressure is 1.2 bar -1.4. Another advantage of the original londiniums is that they can be line fed fairly easily and thus become silent in their operation.

The difference in the LR is that it is a cold feed heat exchange and as such pre-infusion is acheived via the rotary pump, which is a lot quieter. This pressure is completely adjustable on the latest variant and the pre-infusion pressure has a direct correlation to the temperature of the shots, so basically the lower the pre-infusion pressure the lower the temperature, which suits darker roasts, lighter roasts are extracted more efficiently at higher temperatures, so the flexibility offered on the LR with being able to set the pre-infusion up to 6 bar means fine tuning light roasts is much easier and you are able to grind finer and extract more.

hope this helps

and yes I did write pre-infusion 7 times!


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I have both at the mo


 Why does that not surprise me ?

All well in your world coffeedude ?


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

I have a 2nd gen L1. It is set to a boiler pressure of 1.1 bar. I've yet to try a light roast (including Nordic types from Tim Wendelboe, &C) that I couldn't extract satisfactorily by raising the lever, after low-pressure pre-infusion, to near the catch point and holding it a while before releasing. This is using fine grinds and VST baskets.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

aaronb said:


> I've got a first version L1 (which is what I assume 'first run means? mine was off the second production run end of 2012 but identical to the first run) and am very happy with it. I use light roasts too.
> 
> The answer id say depends on price being asked, what you're willing to pay etc. The side panels really aren't an issue, I've taken mine off maybe 3 times since I bought it. It should have had new seals on the piston at least once I'd have thought but check when they were last done and factor that in if its needed. Maybe a new shower screen and seal too and you're good to go.


 You've all been so very helpful & informative with your comments & discussion. Very much appreciated, indeed.

One remaining question: Any ideas on what sort of price is reasonable for a first run L1 model?


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## iroko (Nov 9, 2012)

Probably between £1200 / £1400. You might pick up a early one a bit cheaper but not many come up for sale.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

iroko said:


> Probably between £1200 / £1400. You might pick up a early one a bit cheaper but not many come up for sale.


 ? They hold their value well, even after nearly 10 years of use!

Thanks for giving me an expected price range!


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I'll be selling my L1, from what I gather it's the older "original" model. It's currently waiting for a final overall clean and polish, but apart from that it's ready to go.

T.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

dsc said:


> I'll be selling my L1, from what I gather it's the older "original" model. It's currently waiting for a final overall clean and polish, but apart from that it's ready to go.
> 
> T.


 May I inquire as to expected price? And where are you located?


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

£1350 and Dorking / Surrey, happy to drive over to meet up half way etc. I'll create a new thread in the For Sale section hopefully in the next few days.

T.


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## Bainbridge (Feb 4, 2012)

dsc said:


> £1350 and Dorking / Surrey, happy to drive over to meet up half way etc. I'll create a new thread in the For Sale section hopefully in the next few days.
> 
> T.


 Why are you selling?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

More thank likely upgrading to a newer version.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Bainbridge said:


> Why are you selling?


Lack of space and the fact that I really only have time to make a single spro a day and sometimes not even that, so heating up a 2.5L boiler really seems like a waste. Shame to see the machine simply sitting there not used so I gave it a proper service and it's now waiting for a new owner who can push it a bit harder than I did.

T.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

dsc said:


> Lack of space and the fact that I really only have time to make a single spro a day and sometimes not even that, so heating up a 6L boiler really seems like a waste. Shame to see the machine simply sitting there not used so I gave it a proper service and it's now waiting for a new owner who can push it a bit harder than I did.
> 
> T.


Story of my life. Now I have two Pavonis. 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dsc said:


> Lack of space and the fact that I really only have time to make a single spro a day and sometimes not even that, so heating up a 6L boiler really seems like a waste. Shame to see the machine simply sitting there not used so I gave it a proper service and it's now waiting for a new owner who can push it a bit harder than I did.
> 
> T.


 It's not a 6 litre boiler it's 2.4 so not to much to heat up.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> It's not a 6 litre boiler it's 2.4 so not to much to heat up.


I was convinced it was 6L total but less than 50% full. Nothing like a duh moment I guess.

T.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dsc said:


> Lack of space and the fact that I really only have time to make a single spro a day and sometimes not even that, so heating up a 6L boiler really seems like a waste. Shame to see the machine simply sitting there not used so I gave it a proper service and it's now waiting for a new owner who can push it a bit harder than I did.
> 
> T.


 It's not a 6 litre boiler it's 2.4 so not to much to heat up.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

The fun begins: I am now the owner of an older still shiny & lovely L1!

@dsc Thank you for the note about your L being for sale. The coincidence in timing is uncanny, but based on my hunt, I would guess you will have no shortage of offers.

You have all been very generous with your knowledge. It has helped me greatly with this purchase. Thank you.


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Congratulations. Good decision, well made I reckon.

Consistency is the first luxury I think you will notice.

May I ask what grinder you have presently?


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

grumpydaddy said:


> Congratulations. Good decision, well made I reckon.
> 
> Consistency is the first luxury I think you will notice.
> 
> May I ask what grinder you have presently?


 Kinu, with HG-1 on the horizon.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Deidre said:


> Kinu, with HG-1 on the horizon.


 Watch the for sale section


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

coffeechap said:


> Watch the for sale section


 Have my eye on one at this very moment, crossing fingers as I type.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

coffeechap said:


> Watch the for sale section


 A new option has arisen, a (used) Compak e5. For about the same amount of money, I could buy a new Niche. Is one superior to the other with the Londinium? Will one deliver superior taste in the cup?


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Is it possible (or feasible) to connect the Londinium water line to one of those massively large bottled water jugs, instead of plumbing it to local tap water? I presume some sort of pump would also be required, to get if from jug to machine, but still might be preferable to using the old plastic tank of the espresso machine?


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Deidre said:


> Is it possible (or feasible) to connect the Londinium water line to one of those massively large bottled water jugs, instead of plumbing it to local tap water? I presume some sort of pump would also be required, to get if from jug to machine, but still might be preferable to using the old plastic tank of the espresso machine?


 At Farmers Markets I use a Flo-jet with an accumulator with a food grade water container to run my plumbed in L1.

Works well. It's not completely silent as it would be if you connected via the mains but it supplies the L1 no problem.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

It has also occurred to me the original plastic tank in the L1 might not be all that "food & body safe" by today's standards?? Can one buy stainless steel water tank inserts to fit the L1? (until I decide whether & which plumbing route to take)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deidre said:


> It has also occurred to me the original plastic tank in the L1 might not be all that "food & body safe" by today's standards?? Can one buy stainless steel water tank inserts to fit the L1? (until I decide whether & which plumbing route to take)


 They are not that old in terms of manufacture . Your plastic tank will be fine


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

@Mrboots2u, thank you for that clarification.

Would you have any opinion on the Compak e5 at all? I am wondering if it would be better/same as the heralded Niche. (I lost out on the used Hg1 I had my eye on.)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deidre said:


> @Mrboots2u, thank you for that clarification.
> 
> Would you have any opinion on the Compak e5 at all? I am wondering if it would be better/same as the heralded Niche. (I lost out on the used Hg1 I had my eye on.)


 Never used one.

There are functional differences though. Niche = single dose and no retention E5 run with a hopper and some retention.

Do you have a preference on the dosing processes ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The e5 is a good grinder it's quick and has good grind consistency, are you set on a brand new grinder?


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

@Mrboots2u The priority for me would be taste.

I took a look at a good-valued used e5, and have also considered the new niche, weighing whether one might have an edge over the other when it comes to flavours in the cup with a Londinium. (Single dosing would be convenient but not essential.)


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

coffeechap said:


> The e5 is a good grinder it's quick and has good grind consistency, are you set on a brand new grinder?


 The used e5 I am considering is selling for the same price (almost) as the new Niche. It comes down to flavour benefit of one over the other; and as subjective as that can be, I wondered if there might be a sense here of which would/might be the better match for the L1?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Get the Niche. The E5 is ok but it's pretty loud at 6am in the morning. I have had the E5, what year is the E5 seems a little pricy


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Jony said:


> Get the Niche. The E5 is ok but it's pretty loud at 6am in the morning. I have had the E5, what year is the E5 seems a little pricy


 It is 1.5 years old, very light use, selling for £400


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Do you get pretty much the same flavours from both grinders?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Deidre said:


> It is 1.5 years old, very light use, selling for £400


 Late 2017 then.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I'm doubtful Niche produces better tasting shots than E5, but then you'd better try both and see what you prefer.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

PPapa said:


> I'm doubtful Niche produces better tasting shots than E5, but then you'd better try both and see what you prefer.


 I may be able to arrange a taste of the e5.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

mathof said:


> I have a 2nd gen L1. It is set to a boiler pressure of 1.1 bar. I've yet to try a light roast (including Nordic types from Tim Wendelboe, &C) that I couldn't extract satisfactorily by raising the lever, after low-pressure pre-infusion, to near the catch point and holding it a while before releasing. This is using fine grinds and VST baskets.


 What does "holding the lever near the catch point" allow to happen that doesn't happen with a normal release of the lever at the catch point?

You also mentioned baskets, and that reminds me to ask:

What do VST baskets provide, vs the Londinium standard basket?

My machine came with both the original londinium screen and an IMS screen. What differences do the two screens allow for in the extraction?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Holding the lever at or near the catch point affects the pressure at the puck. Pressure profile for a lever such as the Londinium provides maximum pressure at catch point - typically around 9 bars. Applying manual counter pressure on the lever at catch point will reduce maximum pressure available through the lever. It's not exact.

VST baskets are precision engineered. Each one comes with a certificate indicating it has passed quality control fine tolerances. Londinium baskets are 'stock'. Whether VST produce better coffee that stock baskets is debatable. That said, VSTs have a loyal following - me included.

There is no evidence as far as I am aware that different shower screens impact significantly, if at all, on the extracted shot. I've used IMS screens and not noticed any difference to the stock Londinium screen.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

In my arsenal, there is also a screen that says" E61 35 WM Lotto D126". Does this offer any benefit or drawback over the Londinium stock screen?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

That's an IMS shower screen. Manufacturer claims it improves water distribution during extraction. As said above, not aware of this being lab proven.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Suggest you experiment & see which you prefer.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Suggest you experiment & see which you prefer.


 I've tried both, but no definitive conclusions drawn. Yet another variable to add to the mix!?


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Deidre said:


> What does "holding the lever near the catch point" allow to happen that doesn't happen with a normal release of the lever at the catch point?
> 
> -- It allows you to use the pressure of the piston to fully infuse hard-to-infuse pucks made of very fine grinds. When drops appear on the shower screen - assuming you are using a bottomless portafilter - you can release the lever, which then moves smoothly through the rest of its arc.
> 
> ...


 -- VST baskets have more and larger holes, as well as precise tolerances; this allows you grind finer, in order to extract light coffees better and more evenly.



> My machine came with both the original londinium screen and an IMS screen. What differences do the two screens allow for in the extraction?


 --IMS makes more than one screen. They have finer meshes than the original Londinium screen, which allows them to diffuse the water more evenly and gently.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deidre said:


> I've tried both, but no definitive conclusions drawn. Yet another variable to add to the mix!?


 It's only a variable if you change it, choose one, stick to it


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

mathof said:


> -- VST baskets have more and larger holes, as well as precise tolerances; this allows you grind finer, in order to extract light coffees better and more evenly.


 Where did you hear that? Sounds counterintuitive. VST baskets' holes are standardised for the target dose mass for each basket.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Where did you hear that? Sounds counterintuitive. VST baskets' holes are standardised for the target dose mass for each basket.


 The holes cover more area of the basket than say a stock Londinium one, which I think was the point being made whether they are bigger or not dunno.

You are forced to grind finer as a result of more whole ( and who knows perhaps bigger ones : )


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> The holes cover more area of the basket than say a stock Londinium one, which I think was the point being made whether they are bigger or not dunno.
> 
> You are forced to grind finer as a result of more whole ( and who knows perhaps bigger ones : )


 Not aware of any information indicating VST baskets have bigger holes. As Boots points out, the holes in a VST cover all the basket surface area.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> The holes cover more area of the basket than say a stock Londinium one, which I think was the point being made whether they are bigger or not dunno.
> You are forced to grind finer as a result of more whole ( and who knows perhaps bigger ones : )


I thought the point of precision baskets was so commercial ventures could have several which all dialed in the same.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> Mrboots2u said:
> 
> 
> > The holes cover more area of the basket than say a stock Londinium one, which I think was the point being made whether they are bigger or not dunno.
> ...


 Dunno, i do know that I have to adjust grind from a 15 to a 18g basket

My points were that they had more holes than a stock basket, the point of them I though was they helped you extract more


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Dunno, i do know that I have to adjust grind from a 15 to a 18g basket
> My points were that they had more holes than a stock basket, the point of them I though was they helped you extract more


There was a thread a while back showing close up photos of various baskets. Some of the stock ones were quite shocking with differing hole sizes/shapes.


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Where did you hear that? Sounds counterintuitive. VST baskets' holes are standardised for the target dose mass for each basket.


 I don't know where I heard that; I hope I'm not spreading false information. I agree that the basket holes differ for different size baskets, in order to keep the flow the same, I presume. I also should mention that they have straight sides.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

mathof said:


> I have a 2nd gen L1. It is set to a boiler pressure of 1.1 bar. I've yet to try a light roast (including Nordic types from Tim Wendelboe, &C) that I couldn't extract satisfactorily by raising the lever, after low-pressure pre-infusion, to near the catch point and holding it a while before releasing. This is using fine grinds and VST baskets.


 Is this dual-style of preinfusion good for all roasts, or just for the light roasts? (referring to preinfusing with lever down, then preinfusing at the catch point when the lever moves to upright position)

I still haven't determined which aspect of the process determines the best body (thickness) in an espresso shot, and wonder if my approach to preinfusion should be modified.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

For what its worth, I asked Reiss directly and he said that even with a large price difference he would go with the L-R over the old L-1. Even if the price difference was £800 or more.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

mctrials23 said:


> For what its worth, I asked Reiss directly and he said that even with a large price difference he would go with the L-R over the old L-1. Even if the price difference was £800 or more.


 Too late for me I'm afraid, as I have already acquired a used L1. I am enjoying it! Maybe in a few years, I'll trade up.?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> For what its worth, I asked Reiss directly and he said that even with a large price difference he would go with the L-R over the old L-1. Even if the price difference was £800 or more.


 If money is no object then yes - its the way to go. If the choice is an L1 and an extra £800 to spend on a grinder upgrade then it may not be so clear cut.

I'm in the 'if it aint broke' camp currently and don't feel the need to upgrade to an LR. The market isn't flooded with L1's so I suspect that I'm not the only one. That said, I suspect that sooner or later it will be an itch to be scratched.


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

Realizing too late that I may have posted my earlier question as a followup (to this topic I had started some time ago), when I perhaps should have posted it as a new topic?

Regardless, the followup question is all about preinfusion approaches on the L1. @Mathof mentioned a dual approach, with preinfusing first at the bottom of the lever, and then again at the catch point. Any thoughts on that approach, and how it affects body?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Oh the L1 is a lovely machine, I think he just believes the L-R is a more modern and better machine for today's lighter roasts.


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## mathof (Mar 24, 2012)

Deidre said:


> Is this dual-style of preinfusion good for all roasts, or just for the light roasts? (referring to preinfusing with lever down, then preinfusing at the catch point when the lever moves to upright position)
> 
> I still haven't determined which aspect of the process determines the best body (thickness) in an espresso shot, and wonder if my approach to preinfusion should be modified.


 I take the view that if you can complete preinfusion in less than ~12 seconds without raising the lever, do so; if it takes longer, raise the lever. This is a function of roast degree and grind setting. Determining just what to do with a particular bean is part of dialing-in.


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