# Help with my Sage Espresso Machine



## vaderag (Nov 26, 2019)

New member here - hi!

We just 'upgraded' from a Delonghi Magnifica Bean to Cup to a Sage Barista Touch and so far I havent been that successful.

We previously had a Delonghi manual with separate grinder so understand the 'basics' of a tamp etc but on the Sage I just don't seem to be able to get it right...

The instructions on the machine say that extraction should start at around 7 seconds and if not then lower the grind, but even on the finest grind setting it's only kicking in at 5 seconds, and I'm still getting too much water with my shot.

Can anyone give me some advice on what I'm doing wrong? I'm unable to grind any finer (and seems odd that it should scale from "too course for anything" down to "not fine enough")

Thanks


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Hi!

What beans are you using? How long past the 'roasted on' date are they? Can you make a video?


----------



## vaderag (Nov 26, 2019)

-Mac said:


> Hi!
> 
> What beans are you using? How long past the 'roasted on' date are they? Can you make a video?


 Don't shoot me but they're just some Lavatzzia that my wife picked up while I was out of the country


----------



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Try some fresh, quality beans. Good ones with a 'roasted on' date (ideally use them from the fourth day past that date). It can make a huge difference.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

vaderag said:


> New member here - hi!
> 
> We just 'upgraded' from a Delonghi Magnifica Bean to Cup to a Sage Barista Touch and so far I havent been that successful.
> 
> ...


 Is there not an internal range adjustment on the grinder? Have a look in the manual. Sounds like you are still too coarse.

How much coffee are you putting in the PF (to 0.1g)?

When you say you have too much water in the shot, put a set of scales under the cup, so when the shot is finished, you can tell us exactly how much that is.

Start of extraction @ 7s is way too vague to tell us anything about the shot.


----------



## vaderag (Nov 26, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Is there not an internal range adjustment on the grinder? Have a look in the manual. Sounds like you are still too coarse.
> 
> How much coffee are you putting in the PF (to 0.1g)?
> 
> ...


 There is an external range adjustment wheel, not sure on internal, but I'm not seeing anything in the manualhttps://www.breville.com/content/dam/breville/ca/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES880-instruction-manual.pdf

Apparently grind size goes to 30 though! (and I'm at 1)

The coffee amount is just given to me in seconds - I'll try weigh the next one, but what should I be putting in?

Also what should the weight of a final shot be?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

vaderag said:


> There is an external range adjustment wheel, not sure on internal, but I'm not seeing anything in the manualhttps://www.breville.com/content/dam/breville/ca/assets/miscellaneous/instruction-manual/espresso/BES880-instruction-manual.pdf
> 
> Apparently grind size goes to 30 though! (and I'm at 1)
> 
> ...


 Put the empty PF on some 1kg or 2kg 0.01g resolution scales, tare them, grind into the PF & re-weigh. Report back. (More coffee in the PF up to a point, will slow the shot down, but too much will make for low extractions). I'd start out aiming 10-11g in the single basket, 18g in the double.

I wouldn''t grind into the PF direct either, grind into a pot/cup/jug, give it a shake & transfer to the PF.

Final shot should be between "too much water in the cup" and 'too strong to enjoy'  I'd start aiming about 3 or 4 times the weight of the coffee dose...if you get a good flavour, but the shots are too weak, then you'll have to investigate how to get a finer grind.


----------



## vaderag (Nov 26, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Put the empty PF on some 1kg or 2kg 0.01g resolution scales, tare them, grind into the PF & re-weigh. Report back. (More coffee in the PF up to a point, will slow the shot down, but too much will make for low extractions). I'd start out aiming 10-11g in the single basket, 18g in the double.
> 
> I wouldn''t grind into the PF direct either, grind into a pot/cup/jug, give it a shake & transfer to the PF.
> 
> Final shot should be between "too much water in the cup" and 'too strong to enjoy'  I'd start aiming about 3 or 4 times the weight of the coffee dose...if you get a good flavour, but the shots are too weak, then you'll have to investigate how to get a finer grind.


 Okay, i don't have that accurate a scales, but i got roughly 18g on grind size 5 and 22g on grind size 2

On both however the coffee quantity was nearly 8x at 120g

I'm tamping the buggery out of it to compact it enough on the grind size 5, far less son on grind size 2

In none of these cases would i say the shots are too weak (quite the opposite but this could just be the crappy beans), just too much water... do you think it's as simple as reducing the amount of water passing through?


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If the shots aren't "weak" I don't knowwhat you mean by "too much water"? Too much water would indicate to me that the coffee taste was weak. If it I not weak in terms of your preference, is there some other negative to the taste that indicates 120g is too much?

Don't tamp the buggery out of the dose, it'll just artificially slow the shot, butt not really help anything else.

Grind into a cup/pot/jug so that you can stick to the same dose all the time, without grind size changing it.


----------



## vaderag (Nov 26, 2019)

MWJB said:


> If the shots aren't "weak" I don't knowwhat you mean by "too much water"? Too much water would indicate to me that the coffee taste was weak. If it I not weak in terms of your preference, is there some other negative to the taste that indicates 120g is too much?
> 
> Don't tamp the buggery out of the dose, it'll just artificially slow the shot, butt not really help anything else.
> 
> Grind into a cup/pot/jug so that you can stick to the same dose all the time, without grind size changing it.


 I mean, half a mug is water, minimal room for the milk


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

vaderag said:


> I mean, half a mug is water, minimal room for the milk


 Can you not program the machine to deliver less water?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

MWJB said:


> Can you not program the machine to deliver less water?


 I think you can adjust the time the shot is extracting on this machine but that's probably not the issue here.

If they are old Lavazza beans the Sage will struggle to grind these fine enough to give enough resistance to slow the extraction down reduce volume. Sage have a YouTube video showing the difference between fresh beans with a roast date and old beans with only a Use By, for the Oracle Touch I believe.

You can open the burr and adjust the burr so that the 1 to 30 on the wheel gives a finer grind but personally I wouldn't bother as you'd have to reverse the change for fresh beans. Either get some fresh beans which will taste better anyway or maybe use the pressurised basket for the remainder of Lavazza bag. With 18g in, look for 36g to 44g out - not the 120ml you are getting


----------



## vaderag (Nov 26, 2019)

Stevebee said:


> I think you can adjust the time the shot is extracting on this machine but that's probably not the issue here.
> 
> If they are old Lavazza beans the Sage will struggle to grind these fine enough to give enough resistance to slow the extraction down reduce volume. Sage have a YouTube video showing the difference between fresh beans with a roast date and old beans with only a Use By, for the Oracle Touch I believe.
> 
> You can open the burr and adjust the burr so that the 1 to 30 on the wheel gives a finer grind but personally I wouldn't bother as you'd have to reverse the change for fresh beans. Either get some fresh beans which will taste better anyway or maybe use the pressurised basket for the remainder of Lavazza bag. With 18g in, look for 36g to 44g out - not the 120ml you are getting


 Thanks - I already ordered some fresh beans as I'd never have bought these anyway (perils of leaving the wife to the shopping while away!), but it would be good to know how to open and adjust the burr for future reference - do you know where i would find these instructions?

When you say pressurised basket do you mean the dual layer one? What difference does that actually make (I note it says for pre-ground...)


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

vaderag said:


> Thanks - I already ordered some fresh beans as I'd never have bought these anyway (perils of leaving the wife to the shopping while away!), but it would be good to know how to open and adjust the burr for future reference - do you know where i would find these instructions?
> 
> When you say pressurised basket do you mean the dual layer one? What difference does that actually make (I note it says for pre-ground...)


 How to adjust the burr is covered in the User Manual - looks straightforward enough but fresher beans is the best way forward.

Yes, they call it Dual Layered. It's used for pre ground coffee that is too coarse for the machine (which it sounds like the Lavazza are as well). It has the standard holes in the 1st layer of the basket but the second layer normally has just the one hole creating a bottleneck for the extraction, although not sure what the Sage ones look like. This has the effect of slowing the shot as the grind itself can't manage to do so. Don't know what it tastes like as I've never used one.


----------



## vaderag (Nov 26, 2019)

Stevebee said:


> How to adjust the burr is covered in the User Manual - looks straightforward enough but fresher beans is the best way forward.
> 
> Yes, they call it Dual Layered. It's used for pre ground coffee that is too coarse for the machine (which it sounds like the Lavazza are as well). It has the standard holes in the 1st layer of the basket but the second layer normally has just the one hole creating a bottleneck for the extraction, although not sure what the Sage ones look like. This has the effect of slowing the shot as the grind itself can't manage to do so. Don't know what it tastes like as I've never used one.


 Dual wall basket made a huge difference. MUCH better cup of coffee and quantity of water with these beans...

Question then becomes, what's the downside of using this basket in future?


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

When you use the normal double basket it's the coffee that provides the resistance to slow the flow of coffee. This in turn extracts all the great coffee flavours, under 9 bar pressure, for your espresso which is why it will taste good.

With the Dual baskets it's the design of the basket that slows the flow. It will extract less coffee from the grinds. Once you dial in fresh coffee with the double basket you'll find a significant difference in taste.

However, the Dual one, as you've found, can enable you to at least get something drinkable from sub optimal beans


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Several people have fallen foul of Sage's 7 secs. Forget it. The weight of grinds in the basket must be reasonably controlled, scales best but the razor tool will do a decent job and is one way of finding how many grams to use. Ideally tune for between 2 and 3 times the weight of grinds coming out as a shot via the grinder setting in roughly 30 sec.

The grinder should be easily capable of chocking the machine ie - pull a shot and nothing comes out. If you can't do that there is something wrong with the grinder. There should be no reason to adjust the burrs themselves. If there is you have a faulty machine so report it to Sage.

When some one posts that machines do what this one seems to be doing best response rather than the usual is that the machine is faulty. There shouldn't be any need to get the grinder to the minimum setting.

John

-


----------



## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

ajohn said:


> Several people have fallen foul of Sage's 7 secs. Forget it. The weight of grinds in the basket must be reasonably controlled, scales best but the razor tool will do a decent job and is one way of finding how many grams to use. Ideally tune for between 2 and 3 times the weight of grinds coming out as a shot via the grinder setting in roughly 30 sec.
> 
> The grinder should be easily capable of chocking the machine ie - pull a shot and nothing comes out. If you can't do that there is something wrong with the grinder. There should be no reason to adjust the burrs themselves. If there is you have a faulty machine so report it to Sage.
> 
> ...


 The OP has already confirmed they're using Lavazza beans, not knowing roast date etc..

Sage themselves have posted YouTube videos showing the effect of old vs fresh beans on the shots, mentioning that for some old beans the machine will struggle to grind fine enough and to ensure they use beans with a roast date.

Sounds like there is nothing wrong with the machine, just try it with fresh beans to confirm.


----------



## vaderag (Nov 26, 2019)

So, had a mate over yesterday whos much more experienced than me and has had a sage for ages.

After playing with it for a few hours his conclusion is that it's faulty as well

Basically not getting the resistance we should - it's unable to choke in any situation.

Grinder is fine apparently, courseness as expected.

But always too much water coming through, and coffee always too bitter no matter what we do

NB. Thus was with November roasted beans


----------

