# Help me decide on my decaf grinder:Sage Dose Control £115, or Smart Control £139!



## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

I understand the differences between these 2 grinders, and at these prices, the cost difference in negligible....what I am trying to weigh up is to go for the 'simpler low tech' option, or the option with more features but more electronics....and more to go wrong?

I'm not expecting to last as long as my Mignon Mk2, but a reasonable longevity would be nice. I know Sage items are not that repairable and spares not the easiest to come by.

Or is there something else I have missed that would sway the decision....?

Thoughts?!

Thanks, Chipstix.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Espresso or brewed?


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

Both: Espresso with my Rocket Premium Plus v3, generally milk based coffee for the missus

And coarser to take to work for my Aeropress....


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If hand grinding is not an option then I would look at an encore or virtuoso over a sage?


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

I have a Tiamo Ceramic Burr hand grinder, but I don't have the time or patience to use except when on holiday or camping!

I've heard the encore and virtuoso are good, but I'm not at all a fan of how they look, plus I want to be able to grind into the portafilter. Plus the Virtuoso is a much higher pricepoint.

I'm pretty set on one of these Sages - just need to decide which one. I had also considered a used Mignon Mk2, but they are £200+ and I'd be picky and want a black one too (my current Mignon is chrome - one either side of the Rocket!)


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

The rocket deserves more than a sage, but I understand money is key....

Sounds like you have your mind made up already on a sage... Would go for less inside the grinder then, warranty is key I think.


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> The rocket deserves more than a sage, but I understand money is key....
> 
> Sounds like you have your mind made up already on a sage... Would go for less inside the grinder then, warranty is key I think.


Agreed, but this is for milk based decaf coffee and when the beans are a touch older they get ground for the AP. Even my £300 Mignon is apparently the absolute minimum recommended grinder for the Rocket!! All in good time. When I think I recently bought a virtually new competition spec 250cc KTM Enduro motorbike for £5k, its puts things into perspective!

Both have a 2 year warranty.....needtochecktheheightdifferenceonmycounter.thisdialogueboxhasstoppedacceptingspacebar!!!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Spacebarsareoverrated.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I would go for the Pro grinder. It just makes it easier to visually watch the grind adjustment being made


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

From experience the Sage smart pro does not do that well with decaf.

Even on finest setting (inc top burr adjustment) I was seeing 15s gushers when using Rave Decaf. Fine when run through my other grinder at the time (Macap MXD).

Buy from Lakeland and you can always return if it doesn't cut the mustard.

Apart from the decaf issue it was a good, albeit slow, lkttle grinder with some well thought out features


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Or second hand jolly, keep your eyes open on here or eBay and try and pick one up, a little more cash granted and bigger footprint, but better in the cup!


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

Interesting feedback....I suppose I could always run decaf through the mignon and caf in the Sage. I could taste-test so see if can see any difference. In some ways it makes more sense as I only take caf coffee to work for the AP. And the Pro comes with a little seal jar that would be ideal....


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Or second hand jolly, keep your eyes open on here or eBay and try and pick one up, a little more cash granted and bigger footprint, but better in the cup!


WAY too big. My unbelievably understanding wife would have me sending it back within 5mins of seeing it!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If I'm only taking caffeine coffee to work then I would go for a hand grinder at work!

Fresh is best!


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> If I'm only taking caffeine coffee to work then I would go for a hand grinder at work!
> 
> Fresh is best!


I know where your coming from but my days at work at super hectic and high pressure - brace yourself - I sometimes don't even find time to make a coffee at all! the AP has prompted enough comments from colleagues....there is no way I'm going to stand there cranking a hand grinder in front of the other employees, so I'd have to find a quiet room or book a conference room to grind. Not practical for me....and at my taste sensitivity level, its not a show stopper to have coffee that I ground that morning.

If you could buy a completely silent electric grinder, that would be a different matter!


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

Right, decision made. I've ordered a brand new Sage Smart Grinder Pro from I want one of those .com for £139 delivered, with 10% cashback on Topcashback.

It was a good point about the display as it might be tucked a bit behind the Rocket, plus I remembered that I liked the portafilter push button design when I had the Sage Barista Express with the built in grinder. These don't have great resale value, but probably better with the Smart vs the Dose Control. I hope it lasts long enough past the 2 year warranty period that I can sell it if I feel the need. Looking forward to getting back up to 2x grinders again!


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

So the Smart Pro has turned up, I like it, but the Missus is not at all keen! She reckons it ugly and a 'lot bigger than I had indicated'. I went for Black as we have black granite worktops, but obviously not stealth enough! ;-). In fact, it has a small footprint but the hopper is fairly large. Unfortunately, according to Sage smaller hoppers such as the Dose Control hopper wouldn't fit it. Slightly annoying as I will only even put a small amount of beans in there (not necessarily one double's worth but not even half fill that hopper).

Anyway, we're keeping it, but I agree that 'coffee corner' is starting to look somewhat busy with the Rocket, the Smart Pro and the Mignon! There was talk of 'keeping one of the grinders in the cupboard' but I've used my selective hearing to deal with that one!

I'm going to get dialling in in the morning.....

I've been in a dilemma about which beans to set on each, but have decided for now to run caf in the Sage and decaf in the Eureka. In theory the grind from the Eureka is a better grind, however

1) I've heard at least one report that suggested the Sage may have issues achieving the right grind on decaf beans, never tested first hand but could be the case

2) The Sage has some features that are way better than the Eureka,

a) Much better dose timing. The Eureka is a really inaccurate potentiometer. I will be weighing the loaded portafilter, but I can measure the grind time on the sage and then program that time, so whilst I will check it, it will only need doing once per bean.

b) Easier to clean up spilled grinds with removable tray (and far fewer spills due to the chute 'hood')

c) I'll see how the clumping compares, the Eureka is very bad for that

d) WAY easier for me to switch to a coarser grind into the supplied airtight container to take (caf only) coffee to work for the Aeropress.

3) The Eureka feels more solid, much heavier and well made, but I will be interested if I can notice a taste difference, the sage does have proper stainless steel conical burr grinders (that according to Sage can handle 200kg of coffee before being changed?!)

so, if anyone is remotely interested I will report back.....


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)




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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have had both side by side and also only drinks decaf. The Sage could not grind fine enough, but I do not think being decaf had anything to do with it. It does handle grinding for my Moccamaster pretty well. So am quite happy to keep it for that purpose but use other grinders for the serious stuff


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I have had both side by side and also only drinks decaf. The Sage could not grind fine enough, but I do not think being decaf had anything to do with it. It does handle grinding for my Moccamaster pretty well. So am quite happy to keep it for that purpose but use other grinders for the serious stuff


If I can't hit the brew ratios that I want, I will be returning it for a full refund!

I'm not planning on adjusting it until I need to but there is the additional 10 adjustment top burr. I'm struggling to understand how it won't be able to go fine enough, I'll guess I'll have to try and see....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Chipstix said:


> If I can't hit the brew ratios that I want, I will be returning it for a full refund!
> 
> I'm not planning on adjusting it until I need to but there is the additional 10 adjustment top burr. I'm struggling to understand how it won't be able to go fine enough, I'll guess I'll have to try and see....


because the additional adjustment is only to be used when your burrs are worn and 100% definitely not to be used as extra shims


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

They neglected to mention in this review that it couldn't grind fine enough for espresso!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Chipstix said:


> They neglected to mention in this review that it couldn't grind fine enough for espresso!


have you got fairies at the bottom of your garden? Me neither......you watch the Sage DB reviews and by setting it up correctly and using certain beans they pull amazing shots, although I have seen glimpses of the bar pressure running too high. Sage now bleat on about the importance of only using fresh beans. Am I surprised that my grinder will not grind fine enough for espresso when theirs does......not at all but it does annoy me


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

I think I've lost you.. fairies?! Anyway will try tomorrow and report back...


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Decaf does generally require a really fine grind from the stuff I've tried.


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

Jury is still out on the Sage. After many attempts I got to a reasonable brew ratio but it was on top burr position 2 of 10, and adjuster position 5 of 60, so close to as tight as it can go. I love the features and I really want to love the grinder but I'm not sure... also motor sounds a bit laboured to me on these settings. I'll play with it over the weekend and if not happy, it will have to go back. Then it would be a used Mignon @ £200.... or decide never to drink decaf coffee at home again...!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If this is for brewed, have a look at this.....cheaper and the ones I had seemed to work well, but will not do espresso. This is the newer variant as well

https://workshopcoffee.com/products/wilfa-grinder\

In my view you will destroy your Sage on those settings. The motor cannot handle the extra torque required which is why they say the extra adjustment is only for well worn, bedded in burrs


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

I wonder why the hell they sell a £200 RRP ESPRESSO grinder that can't grind fine enough for espresso. Majorly disappointed!


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

I need a grinder that is principally for espresso (ideally decaf), and could also be used to grind for aeropress as a side point

Sounds like I need to call Sage...


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I had a Sage Grinder Pro for a while as a second grinder. Decaf was the only bean type that it struggle with, and that included beans like Rocko Mountain that usually require a really fine grind.

My conclusion, particle size distribution (ie smallest to largest) typically described using Span ((Dv0.9-Dv0.1)/Dv0.5) is different with decaf, even though the Dv0.5 itself might be similar to caf beans. This could be as a result of the damaged cells of the decaf beans being more brittle.

Therefore, even though your grinder settings are the same and your grind size appears similar, there will be a reduction in the water resistance during the pour = faster flow (gusher).

Grinding finer and finer (hence the common issue with clumping in decaf) seems to be the first option that folk take. That's okay if your grinder can take that but maybe the Sage hits its limit before that point (or maybe the small conical burrs are less effective at producing the required particle size distribution).

There is no doubt that getting a really good decaf shot is tougher than with regular beans - maybe a smaller sweet spot, and there is some logic in using your best grinder for decaf. I played around with this for a while when I was strictly decaf a few years ago, ironically it was what prompted me to upgrade from my old Gaggia Classic/Dualit combo as I was trying to get the best out of the decaf options.

When I went back to the full octane stuff with occasional decaf I often had problems getting a decent decaf shot. I think that this is partly due to decaf's tendency to stale very quickly, so dipping into a bag over a few weeks just doesn't work.

There is an argument for having a Nespresso decaf set up if you only need a decaf every so often (cheaper than a new grinder)

The Sage is a decent little grinder although it does sound like the motor struggles a bit sometimes.

*the above thoughts were reached after a conversation with my boss who holds several patents in coffee technology, but I have not actually got around to doing the analysis yet!


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

That's very interesting stuff, I guess the only problem is all of my work this morning has been with fresh but matured caffeinated beans. I haven't even tried achieving results for decaf, so it's really not looking promising for the sage&#8230; if I could have got good results with caffeinated beans with it, I would have used the Mignon for decaf.


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

Phoned Sage, the response I got was one of suprise, as if it's not a common issue. When I asked if seen before he said "not many". Wants me to make a video. Losing confidence fast..


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

Well that was a massive waste of time.

Return authorisation request sent:

"Regrettably, I need to return my Smart Control Pro grinder as unfortunately, it is not fit for purpose. I am unable to achieve a fine enough grind for my espresso machine

I'm on the finest settings, machine is making concerning noises, coffee is still not fine enough. I have another high quality grinder which is producing perfect coffee. This grinder was intended for decaf coffee, but it is not even able to grind the caffeinated coffee correctly. shame as otherwise the design and features are excellent.

I have discussed with Sage Appliances and they are unable to help any further and accept that the grinder must be returned for a full refund."

See video below. Setting 1 (finest), top burr 2 of 10 (second finest). 15g coffee, 45g shot. So brew ratio 3. Grinder making concerning ringing noises.

Good news I have had one delicious coffee today! But it came from the Eureka. Nuff said.

I think I will give up on decaf for now. Make a cup of tea instead. When its time to 'upgrade' the Mignon, perhaps I will keep it as the decaf grinder, because it does achieve tasty decaf results.


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## Chipstix (Aug 1, 2013)

OK, had a chance to regroup and feeling like I have a new plan..... Sage all boxed up ready for collection.

I just measured 15.5g of decaf beans for my 14g LM basket in the bottomless PF. With the Mignon set 1/2 unit finer, I got a 2:1 brew ratio - and using the yoghurt pot WDT technique, the shot looked very good, single stream etc.

In some ways, weighing the beans for each shot is less faff than weighing the PF during grinding (several times usually in my case). Also means I never keep beans in the not-at-all-airtight hopper.

I'm going to stick with this approach and see how I get on!

I'm also trying to convince myself to buy/not buy the ridiculously overpriced but very effective looking OE 58mm Stainless Steel dosing funnel for £22 to upgrade from the yoghurt pot!

I can get 3D printed stuff done at work, but I'm guessing nice slippery stainless steel is better than static-y plastic.


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