# Bad espresso - down to grinder or other factor?



## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

New member, small time lurker but just bought a grinder as I wanted to move away from pre-packed espresso to fresh beans and grind myself. I have a De'Longhi EC152 and this has served me perfectly well with all the pack bought espresso, with a pull time of around 20-30 seconds and a nice crema. However, since buying my Dualit 75015 (upon recommendation) and using the finest grind to load into my machine, it now takes around 60 seconds to pull and there is next to no crema at all.

What factors could this be down to other than the grinder (if any)? And if it is the grinder, what are the most cost effective ways of getting the best grind?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

It could be that the basket or the PF are pressurised , more likely it could be that your massively overloading the coffee into the basket . How much are you putting in ( weight ).

Where was the recommendations for the grinder from as I would normally suspect that the dualit isn't capable of making a fine enough friend for espresso . This would result in the coffee coming out very quickly though. So ......

Generally speaking a over extractions is due to too fine and grind or too much coffee or a combination of both.

Like is said the dualitt normally doesn't go fine enough .

Other people , what happens when you fill a pressurised basket or PF with fresh ground coffee , does it choke ?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

yes it does choke especially if you have tamped it, I would also suspect that the Dualit grinder mentioned creates a very large proportion of fines when grinding at it's finest setting which won't help with choking the machine


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cool so more than likely lots of coffee in a pressurised basket or portafilter ...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I think the trouble is a lot of the websites that sell the cheaper grinders like Amazon get reviews from "civilian" users and I guess most of them would be happy with a Dualit and their pressurised baskets or portafilters.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

So is the grinder useless for espresso? Or is there a work around I can use to make it useful? If it is useless, what are my next best options (on the cheaper side of things)?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

pandabear said:


> So is the grinder useless for espresso? Or is there a work around I can use to make it useful? If it is useless, what are my next best options (on the cheaper side of things)?


Not useless but won't make your life easy. You don't mention what beans you are using - are they from a supermarket or freshly roasted? Latter is what you want to go for.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Just re-read your post. 'Pack bought espresso'. Am assuming this was pre-ground? Need to adjust your grind to get a shot in around 25-30secs max.


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## specialpants (Jun 25, 2013)

You talk about a pull time, but how much liquid are you actually pulling?

If you're doing 30mls in 30seconds, you're putting a lot of pressure on the coffee machine's pump + brew path. You'll blow up your machine one day - thermoblock machines wasn't really designed for this type of extraction. It's more common to get

For best results, start with fresh beans (ie beans that were roasted a week ago - use within 3~4 weeks). Also, check if your basket is clogged - coffee fines + oils can easily build up between the two walls.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

10 secs won't extract sufficiently. Ratio of 1.5-2.0 times dose weight is what you should be looking for in 25-30 secs from moment you switch pump on.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Aye the packs I used to buy were ground already to an espresso grind. I'm using fresh beans from Rave Coffee that were roasted on 6th Feb, so only a few days old. I'm packing my double basket with about 14g of the Dualit grind from those beans and that's what is producing the bad pull. I have cleaned the machine, including the basket and what not so every possible variable is eliminated to my knowledge.

Should I try packing less in and tampering with less force?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Just so I'm clear your weighing the coffee you are putting in the basket , with scales, it's the same amount each time ? It's a double basket that your using ?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

pandabear said:


> Aye the packs I used to buy were ground already to an espresso grind. I'm using fresh beans from Rave Coffee that were roasted on 6th Feb, so only a few days old. I'm packing my double basket with about 14g of the Dualit grind from those beans and that's what is producing the bad pull. I have cleaned the machine, including the basket and what not so every possible variable is eliminated to my knowledge.
> 
> Should I try packing less in and tampering with less force?


The answer here is back off the grind 3 notches or so and don;t tamp so hard pressurised device machines don't need much tamping force at all, as stated before a high ratio of fines, the extremely powdery stuff won't help at all.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

I use around 13-15g every time and it's a double basket. Charlie, I backed off 2 grind notches and used a fair bit less pressure to tamper and it worked rather nicely. Is it just a case now of going up a grind notch and trying again until I get a perfect pull? I mean could it possibly have just been I was tampering way too hard in the first place and the grind was actually okay?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If your not measuring your coffee with scales how do you know if it's 13-15 g?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Its always a case of experimentation whenever you change from one bean to another, what happens is as your experience grows you learn how to zone in on the right grind and tamp levels faster.


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## pandabear (Feb 12, 2014)

Because I weighed it and then measured that out into spoon measure. It's not an exact science I know, hence the 13-15g, but it's always there or thereabouts. Would you have suggested something different to try that might help?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pandabear said:


> Because I weighed it and then measured that out into spoon measure. It's not an exact science I know, hence the 13-15g, but it's always there or thereabouts. Would you have suggested something different to try that might help?


When looking at getting consistent extractions a plus or minus 0.3 g will make a difference to times and taste, let alone plus or minus 2g.

I'm talking generally here though as I have no idea what a good double amount of coffee would be for the basket or pressurised PF your using for your machine . ( 15g could be overfilled I simply don't know ) .

Jewellery scales the measure in 0.1 g that can be tared , then you can weight the coffee in the basket ( does the basket come out of your PF ? ) . Would give you a more consistent dose to work with . I don't think this will solve the issues 100 percent , it sounds like you need to back the ground off. Keeping the dose The same while you of this will massively help you get a better extractions .


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yeah . Adding or removing a gram of coffee especially at those small doses will make a huge difference. youre talking +/- 15% !!!

With my set-up 21g can choke the machine and 19g run a 20 second shot - both keeping everything else the same


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Ihave to admit this is where I get a bit confused too, weight in extraxtion out in weight or ml.

I have been practicing using double shot basket with 18g of grinds. Now I've been aiming for 30ml over 25 seconds and all of my shots have been ugh!

So, is there a general rule of thumb as to weight in and either weight or ml out over a certain time?

I do understand this can vary slightly according to the beans and age etc but even thinking of that surely the set of the grinds must be fairly close.

I've been practicing with Rave Fudge but have Rave signature and Columbian Suarez and York Coffe Emporiums Etheopian Kaffa Forest and Sumatran Gegarang Village.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi , if dosing 18 g ( what basket are you using by the way ) then aim for an output of 1.6 28-29g of liquid , irrespective of the volume this is .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

lets make this easy.....

18 grams of ground coffee into the basket, 1.6 ratio for output so Circa 28g weight of shot output (you need to tare the shot glass on your scales to weigh the output) all done over around 27 seconds will be a good sarting point for espresso, from there it is only minor tweeks that are needed.....


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Good advice on the weighing in and out.

You don't necessarily have to weigh every shot out but even if you just do it to get a bean dialled in to begin with.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> lets make this easy.....
> 
> 18 grams of ground coffee into the basket, 1.6 ratio for output so Circa 28g weight of shot output (you need to tare the shot glass on your scales to weigh the output) all done over around 27 seconds will be a good sarting point for espresso, from there it is only minor tweeks that are needed.....


If it was possible to make a quote a sticky this would surely be a top contender.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

That's what I like simple explanations.

Don't feel so bad asking the dumb questions after all.

Oh I am using the double basket that came with the machine and have no idea what make it is (there seems to be no markings or makers name on it). But I am expecting a nice new 12-18g IMS basket from the posty soon.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok if to play safe with a double basket then go for 16 g dose.

Do you know if it's a pressurised or non pressurised basket ( few holes versus lots of holes on the bottom )


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Non-Pressurised lots of holes. I'm resisting using pressurised (I only have a single pressurised basket) as I want to do it properly besides I'll never move on to a bottomless portafilter if I only practice on pressurised. Also even when I tried using a single shot non-pressurised basket to try and save beans when practicing I couldn't tamp it as the base of the tamper grated against the lip of the basket.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok cool . Single baskets are harder to learn, dose , Tamp and distribute ,stick to the double.

Til you get meow accurate scales stick to 16g then you won't be potentially overdosing your PF.

Bear in mind your dose will not be consistent tho while the scales round up and down and this will make it harder to dial in and get consistent extractions ...

Have fun


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

So I've done everything I can to make my chances of getting this coffee extraction malarkey right, the final thing being I've just finished adjusting the pressure on my machine to 10 bar static.

In with some Rave signature starting with 18g in a double shot basket and in to a naked portafilter (for some reason I seem to find it a whole lot easier using the naked portafilter than a double spout and I seem to get a nice single central stream more often than not). Put the cup and scales under the portafilter and aimed for 28g over 25-30 seconds. A bout 19 seconds so tamped a bit harder and well over at 35 seconds but at last I was getting my first Guinness like espresso.

View attachment 5540


Changed the weight to 16g in and 25-26g out again as near to 25-30 seconds. 28 seconds and it looked perfect and tasted.....certainly far less bitter or sourness than anything I've tasted before. I guess the problem I'm having is distinguishing between sour/bitter and acidic. However, having steamed some milk and using the shots as flat white (I say flat white because my latte art resembled something akin to a Rorshach test and according to that I'm seeing my childhood hamster in a compromising situation with a bloke wearing a welding mask) in a 250ml cup it tasted rather nice.

So, at least I'm now out of the cul-de-sac and moving in the right direction.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Pompeyexile said:


> So I've done everything I can to make my chances of getting this coffee extraction malarkey right, the final thing being I've just finished adjusting the pressure on my machine to 10 bar static.
> 
> In with some Rave signature starting with 18g in a double shot basket and in to a naked portafilter (for some reason I seem to find it a whole lot easier using the naked portafilter than a double spout and I seem to get a nice single central stream more often than not). Put the cup and scales under the portafilter and aimed for 28g over 25-30 seconds. A bout 19 seconds so tamped a bit harder and well over at 35 seconds but at last I was getting my first Guinness like espresso.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you're getting there. Sour and bitter are two different things. Under extracted coffees are pale, thin and sour. Over extracted are bitter. I think of sour as flavours that make you're mouth water like lemon juice whereas bitter is drying like very dark chocolate. Somebody more experienced might correct me if that's not right?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Neill said:


> Sounds like you're getting there. Sour and bitter are two different things. Under extracted coffees are pale, thin and sour. Over extracted are bitter. I think of sour as flavours that make you're mouth water like lemon juice whereas bitter is drying like very dark chocolate. Somebody more experienced might correct me if that's not right?


That sounds good to me. Distinguishing sour and bitter can be hard. I found it tough to begin with.

Have you tried posting a video of the shot including the shot prep before hand?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Lemon equals sour .

Bitter equals burnt toast

Depends if you wanna mess with your coffee.

If you dose say 12g that will be a gusher and should taste sour !

Conversley over dose or tamp tricking hard and get a 30 second plus , that will be bitter !


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've just noticed that your using Rave signature blend which is best drunk with milk. So tasting it as a straight shot may taste a bit strange anyway (just my opinion).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've just noticed that your using Rave signature blend which is best drunk with milk. So tasting it as a straight shot may taste a bit strange anyway (just my opinion).


I'm with you there , the nuttiness can sometimes be taken for bitter , especially if the brew temp is slightly off.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

bitter dries the mouth. Sour makes it water


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

Thanks guys I've got some different beans Columbian Suarez, Sumatran Gegarang and Ethiopian Kaffa Forest I've not even tried yet so It will be interesting to see what sort of taste experience I get.

I have tried to take a video but I'm having trouble posting it as my computer skills are still at the Commodore 64 stage.


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