# Coffee bag labelling



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Am I right in thinking, that it is a food labelling requirement for coffee beans, to show the date they were roasted so that stock control can be effective and it allows the end user to decide when to drink the coffee.

I have just received beans from a well known company who simply have a best before date on the bag, which happened to be January 2018. I have contacted them of course


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Am I right in thinking, that it is a food labelling requirement for coffee beans, to show the date they were roasted so that stock control can be effective and it allows the end user to decide when to drink the coffee.
> 
> I have just received beans from a well known company who simply have a best before date on the bag, which happened to be January 2018. I have contacted them of course


No you are not correct, there is no requirement for roast date information to be on the bag. I am surprised that any reputable speciality roaster would put a date of Jan 2018 on beans even if they were roasted today. This would mean that in their opinion even after 6-7 months post roast...it's all good. This is a best before date...which implies they are real good up until that point?? IMO a best before date after roasting would be 4 - 6 weeks and a use by date of 12 weeks.

I would imagine with so many roasteries springing up, that this will become less and less common....


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> No you are not correct, there is no requirement for roast date information to be on the bag. I am surprised that any reputable speciality roaster would put a date of Jan 2018 on beans even if they were roasted today. This would mean that in their opinion even after 6-7 months post roast...it's all good. This is a best before date...which implies they are real good up until that point?? IMO a best before date after roasting would be 4 - 6 weeks and a use by date of 12 weeks.
> 
> I would imagine with so many roasteries springing up, that this will become less and less common....


I have quite the back log of beans building up.

What storage method would you suggest to keep them good for those 12 weeks? That is longer than I would have thought.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Tape up the one way valves and freeze them


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

better still vacpac them and then freeze


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## RDC8 (Dec 6, 2016)

It might be interesting to share the reply you get from this roaster (assuming they do reply!)

QUOTE=dfk41;508101]Am I right in thinking, that it is a food labelling requirement for coffee beans, to show the date they were roasted so that stock control can be effective and it allows the end user to decide when to drink the coffee.

I have just received beans from a well known company who simply have a best before date on the bag, which happened to be January 2018. I have contacted them of course


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Do you mind sharing who the roaster is? I understand if not.

Personally, I consider the roast date on the bag to be a requirement for purchasing.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> No you are not correct, there is no requirement for roast date information to be on the bag. I am surprised that any reputable speciality roaster would put a date of Jan 2018 on beans even if they were roasted today. This would mean that in their opinion even after 6-7 months post roast...it's all good. This is a best before date...which implies they are real good up until that point?? IMO a best before date after roasting would be 4 - 6 weeks and a use by date of 12 weeks.
> 
> I would imagine with so many roasteries springing up, that this will become less and less common....


Use by wouldn't apply to coffee - it's for food (and drink etc) not safe to consume after a certain period...

https://www.food.gov.uk/science/microbiology/use-by-and-best-before-dates

Same page on the best before, but perhaps just a "recommended consumed by" at 12 weeks


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Reply from Roaster

Thank you for taking the time to get in touch and I'm sorry you're disappointed with your delivery.

Labelling law in the UK is a complex affair and whilst it is a common occurrence for a lot of roasters to state the roasting date it is not a requirement.

We label our 1kg bags with the roasting dates but after a lot of consideration and requests from retailers we now use a best by date on the 250g bags as this is preferred by the majority of customers.

We are a small batch hand roaster so I can tell you that the Ness Point was roasted on 28th June and the Bolts on the 29th June.

If you would still prefer to return the coffee then please let me know and I will arrange a refund.

Reply from me

Hi Deb, I seriously doubt that any coffee drinker would not want to know the date beans were roasted, compared to 100% of sellers wishing to hide the roasted date! On reflection, I will drink them but as a company, I do not see why if you are selling your own product for sale from your premises (assuming the order is not being fulfilled elsewhere) that you cannot whack a date on.

Many thanks

The roaster was Baytown......it sounds like they must sell mainly on Amazon and the like......no excuse in my humble....but I guess it shows that their target market is any idiot who will buy it


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

igm45 said:


> I have quite the back log of beans building up.
> 
> What storage method would you suggest to keep them good for those 12 weeks? That is longer than I would have thought.


People misunderstanding my post.

I consider coffee at it's best from 4-6 weeks. I see it steadily declining from 6-12 weeks after which I don't think it's great and personally would not use it. My best before dates and use by dates are not like the supermarket ones for food....only distantly related.



> Labelling law in the UK is a complex affair and whilst it is a common occurrence for a lot of roasters to state the roasting date it is not a requirement.
> 
> We label our 1kg bags with the roasting dates but after a lot of consideration and requests from retailers we now use a best by date on the 250g bags as this is preferred by the majority of customers.


I must admit to being amazed at this response from The Baytown Coffee Company. They consider the retailers rather than the end customers. Retailers like best before dates 7 months hence, because they can sell the old crap well past it's best and never have to thrown it away. Their only consideration can be that putting the roast date on as well would alert customers to the fact the coffee may not be fresh when purchasing from retailers.....definitely worth thinking about before ordering from them.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

My post for 12 weeks was clutching at straws to be honest.

Overrun with beans and trying to convince myself it'll be alright.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

igm45 said:


> My post for 12 weeks was clutching at straws to be honest.
> 
> Overrun with beans and trying to convince myself it'll be alright.


you'll have to grind finer, will get less crema, aroma and taste, but the coffee will still be ok..not excellent but most likely still better than average café


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

What storage method would you suggest to keep them good for those 12 weeks? That is longer than I would have thought.

An airtight canister with a one way valve to let the gases escape and light resistant as well, does the job nicely


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

It's 'best practice', not law, to put a 'best before' date on all foodstuffs. More of a grey area with coffee, especially roasted beans.


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## [email protected] (Jan 9, 2015)

The response from Baytown is pretty disappointing. Clearly there are commercial reasons for their decision but to say it's what customers want is surprising. But there's a lot of choice out there and buyer beware etc... I have a handful of favourite UK roasters I like to buy from in terms of their quality, customer service and ethos but unfortunately there are a lot more out there that don't measure up to those few...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

[email protected] said:


> The response from Baytown is pretty disappointing. Clearly there are commercial reasons for their decision but to say it's what customers want is surprising. But there's a lot of choice out there and buyer beware etc... I have a handful of favourite UK roasters I like to buy from in terms of their quality, customer service and ethos but unfortunately there are a lot more out there that don't measure up to those few...


Quite agree.......I will be cracking it open in a few days......lets see just how good it is


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I associate Baytown with that fantastic Bootleg they shipped us for DSOL in the dim distant past. That seemed to get universal acclaim (unless it was just xSOL groupthink kicking in). I'm sure the coffee will be good, although I agree that it is a bit disappointing that they chose to 'hide' the RD behind an arbitrary BBE date for those who are buying from a reseller. Why not put both dates? Then those of us who stick to the '6 week rule' will be happy with the RD, and if other customers really need a BBE as a guide they have one to go by. I wonder if the resellers would be happy with that?

I had a similar discussion with my local café (who roast in-house for themselves and do retail bags in the shop). I said he should put a date on. He asked "but what date? When are they no good?" I suggested the date of roasting and let those who care judge for themselves, and those who don't can ignore it as it's a roast date and not an end date. I think I must not have been the only one because his retail bags are stamped now. He only sells in his own shop so nobody but the end consumer to please, and he could do stock rotation by cracking open a few kilo bags to fill his own K30s so there need not be any waste.

If your order was with the roaster direct, I'm fairly sure it will be fresh enough. Big online retailer with fast despatch promises maybe not so much.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

As applying to all fresh and Good quality food stuffs ,traceability is the key .

And what a refreshing change for customer liaison ,Although Baytown did not produce the answer that you wanted or nay expected to hear, at least they replied with an honest answer .


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> As applying to all fresh and Good quality food stuffs ,traceability is the key .
> 
> And what a refreshing change for customer liaison ,Although Baytown did not produce the answer that you wanted or nay expected to hear, at least they replied with an honest answer .


You think so?



> We label our 1kg bags with the roasting dates but after a lot of consideration and requests from retailers we now use a best by date on the 250g bags as this is preferred by the majority of customers.


You really believe the majority of *customers* (not retailers) as stated prefer a best by date and not a roast date.

1. Who is asking these "customers"

2. That's not really how the world works when using the term Fresh (see below).

A quote from their website



> We're hell-bent on helping you enjoy the best quality coffee in a way that works for you. To make sure that happens, we source the highest quality beans, hand roast them and get them to you quickly so you enjoy the freshest, most delicious coffee possible.


Freshly roasted coffee, freshly baked bread, fresh cream cakes, fresh fish, fresh meat....how would you feel if these "freshly" products have a best before date of Jan 18 on them. You would wonder how they can last so long, when they were produced, what does fresh really mean? Is that bread still fresh in 3 months time. Or is your expectation of something made very recently, with a best before date of weeks, not months. now I know people can split hairs and say "well it was fresh when it was made"....but really there is an expectation. Whether their answer is honest or not, I think it's indefensible on a forum where we're talking about speciality grade coffee (and even there we often get short changed) and roasters...or should be. We should never buy coffee with no roasted date (roasted date not packed date) on it!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Which sums up my point exactly. You can have a fancy website with mission statements and all that crap.....but if you are trying to hoodwink those who know by selling stuff with no roast date on, whilst it might be acceptable to some customers, to me it says.......STAY AWAY!


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I agree totally with you, DavecUK, and dfk41.

I can feel a rat coming on, sorry. There are too many uses of too many innapropriate words these days. It sets my teeth on edge! Truly/fresh/quality and all the rest of these valueless words are bandied about without a thought for how stupid they sound.

Quality bread (oh hang on, as opposed to what exactly?). Oh and 'hand roasted', you must have very hot hands is all I can say. Fresh Cream Cakes? No, give me the rancid ones please. And what's with 'gourmet' beans . . .

Rant over!


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> ....how would you feel if these "freshly" products have a best before date of Jan 18 on them.
> 
> ...
> 
> We should never buy coffee with no roasted date (roasted date not packed date) on it!


Absolutely!

I'd love to start seeing more "made on" things etc on degradable produce. In fact, if shops put "killed on" dates on meat, I'd be more inclined to buy it from anywhere but a butcher.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

"Best before" is such a nebulous term. The spoilage rate of a food stuff depends on so many factors. I would prefer to see advice listed which helps people recognise when a food stuff has spoiled such as "Do not use if x, y and z".


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> You think so?
> 
> !


i didn't say I agreed with them and their policy .

i do however stand by my first statement that traceability is the key.

im sorry if I did not put my point across very well, the statement was more about their service and not their policy or beliefs . (English has never been my strong point and I am sure many members curse about my punctuation.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I wouldn't personally buy beans without a roast date on. Not since I joined this forum anyway







Before that I would drink any old stale rubbish as it was better than instant, and I thought I was getting something better.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, 3 days in.....the first shot was ok for a first shot. Not acidic with a little citrus of some some. Made me look forward to the next one......since then, I cannot do a thing. the beans have a dull, lifeless taste, with makes me think despite what the company say, they are a lot older. I have a second bag of this decaf, if anyone would like it to try state here and pm me your details please


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Well, 3 days in.....the first shot was ok for a first shot. Not acidic with a little citrus of some some. Made me look forward to the next one......since then, I cannot do a thing. the beans have a dull, lifeless taste, with makes me think despite what the company say, they are a lot older. I have a second bag of this decaf, if anyone would like it to try state here and pm me your details please


You've made a hell of a sales pitch there!!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I always say things as I see them.....always give the benefit of the doubt.......until the day of reckoning comes along.......as they say, you never hear the bullet that kills you.....


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

A stale coffee bean would have to be travelling unusually fast to kill you, but I guess one could suffocate in an undated bag, with or without one way valve


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Well, 3 days in.....the first shot was ok for a first shot. Not acidic with a little citrus of some some. Made me look forward to the next one......since then, I cannot do a thing. the beans have a dull, lifeless taste, with makes me think despite what the company say, they are a lot older. I have a second bag of this decaf, if anyone would like it to try state here and pm me your details please


When you pointed out the beans had no roast date the roaster disclosed the roast date & still offered a refund. You chose to persevere with them & now you're suggesting they misled you?

You seem determined to make grievance out of this. Not a nice way to carry on.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> When you pointed out the beans had no roast date the roaster disclosed the roast date & still offered a refund. You chose to persevere with them & now you're suggesting they misled you?
> 
> You seem determined to make grievance out of this. Not a nice way to carry on.


Mark, stop talking rubbish.......they offered me a refund and told me the exact date the beans were allegedly roasted. I kept the beans and reported back very accurately. I am not rubbishing the company. They have no way of showing to me the date roasted. They pluck a date from the sky, and I would dispute that date based on the way the beans taste and behave.

I am merely telling people what has happened to me buying beans from this company who would rather have a best before date for the retailer, than a roasted on date for the consumer.

I do not appreciate the last line of your comment


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

So much for benefit of the doubt eh?

You had a query they answered it, they appeared to offer a no quibbles refund. Yet you continue, without any proof contrary to what they told you, to dig the knife in. All the whys & wherefores were answered days ago on this thread. Move on.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@MWJB

how could everything be answered when I only opened them a couple of days ago? Are you suggesting that I do not have the right to inform people of my experiences?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You have every right to share you experiences & the feedback re. those experiences, but perhaps do in good faith. Perhaps tell us what you are enjoying.

If you have some way of accurately determining when the beans were roasted, please share it. No hunches please.

If you were so keen to give these beans a fair crack, why wait 3 weeks until opening them?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> You have every right to share you experiences & the feedback re. those experiences, but perhaps do in good faith. Perhaps tell us what you are enjoying.
> 
> If you have some way of accurately determining when the beans were roasted, please share it. No hunches please.
> 
> If you were so keen to give these beans a fair crack, why wait 3 weeks until opening them?


3 weeks past roast date is bang on for me. They ought to be approaching peak condition and a 250 gm bag lasts 3/4 days. I am suggesting that the beans were not roasted on the date that the roaster said they were. My accusation is based on taste and experience.....do those count for nothing? Never particularly had you down as a happy clapper......personally, I give credit where it is due and am quite happy to give other views if needed.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> 3 weeks past roast date is bang on for me. They ought to be approaching peak condition and a 250 gm bag lasts 3/4 days. I am suggesting that the beans were not roasted on the date that the roaster said they were. My accusation is based on taste and experience.....do those count for nothing? Never particularly had you down as a happy clapper......personally, I give credit where it is due and am quite happy to give other views if needed.


You're playing both ends against the middle, if taste and experience are accurate indicators of roast date, you don't need one in the first place. You would just return the beans, confident in your appraisal.

The roaster in question has probably scared off the majority of forum members through their statements earlier in the thread, they're down, but you keep kicking.

Your Oomph should be less pernickety regarding grind, why not stick them in that?


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## Edison (Sep 28, 2015)

Seeing a roast date on a bag has just to be taken at face value. You don't really know if the roaster hasn't dated forward the bag a few days to make it appear it was truely freshly roasted. Roasters may well have to roast a small batch to fulfil an order for 250g. Perhaps of a newly released coffee. Then it will sit on a shelf hoping for someone else to order. If this doesn't happen for a few days they are gonna use that roast for that new order. You are relying on their morals to either date honestly or add a few days to the roast date to still show they are supplying "fresh roast" We can see the signs of an older roast but if you are leaving to rest assuming the roast date was true it may well be not what you were hoping for when you start to use.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Is this now conspiracy theories forums UK?

Please share the clear & certain signs of a roast being a few days older than stated on the bag? This skill surely eliminates the need for roast dates?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> You're playing both ends against the middle, if taste and experience are accurate indicators of roast date, you don't need one in the first place. You would just return the beans, confident in your appraisal.
> 
> The roaster in question has probably scared off the majority of forum members through their statements earlier in the thread, they're down, but you keep kicking.
> 
> Your Oomph should be less pernickety regarding grind, why not stick them in that?


Why should I have to Oomph beans that were bought as Espresso?

I am stating, that after my appraisal the beans are not roasted on the date they claimed. I think anyone buying from them should know this opinion, after all, if the roaster does not like it they can easily date their bags. I bought these direct from them. The order was not fulfilled by a third party. They have the power to rectify this quite easily.

The purpose of a roasted date is to allow stock rotation. I often have 3 or 4 kilos of stuff knocking around and unless I have misunderstood, the aim is to drink it at its optimum, not towards the end of a shelf life


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Edison said:


> Seeing a roast date on a bag has just to be taken at face value. You don't really know if the roaster hasn't dated forward the bag a few days to make it appear it was truely freshly roasted. Roasters may well have to roast a small batch to fulfil an order for 250g. Perhaps of a newly released coffee. Then it will sit on a shelf hoping for someone else to order. If this doesn't happen for a few days they are gonna use that roast for that new order. You are relying on their morals to either date honestly or add a few days to the roast date to still show they are supplying "fresh roast" We can see the signs of an older roast but if you are leaving to rest assuming the roast date was true it may well be not what you were hoping for when you start to use.


I suggets that you find one or two roasters that you both enjoy and trust in that case


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Why should I have to Oomph beans that were bought as Espresso?.


To get some enjoyment from drinking coffee.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> To get some enjoyment from drinking coffee.


If I go into a shop to buy a Mars Bar, I rarely come out with a Twix!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Is this now conspiracy theories forums UK?
> 
> Please share the clear & certain signs of a roast being a few days older than stated on the bag? This skill surely eliminates the need for roast dates?


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


>


Embarrassingly I only watched this for the first time the other day.

Great movie


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Does anyone know a way of accurately determining the roast date of the beans from the beans themselves that is accessible and applicable by the consumer? We can try to use our experience to estimate it but how accurate is that really? Does one think they could determine the roast date of beans within a few days when tasting blinded samples.

If not then we have to trust roasters to put down the honest date on the bag.

Why do we care about roast date? I suspect we're using it to determine freshness which is used as a proxy to help evaluate quality.

The bottom line is whether one is enjoying the beans. If yes then great. If not then freshness may be a factor but given all the variables that determine the quality of a coffee drink, I am sceptical of attributing it solely down to a single factor.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> If I go in to a shop to buy a Mars Bar, I rarely come out with a Twix!


Beans is beans. What you do with them after purchase is up to you.

Eat the Mars bar or deep fry it...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

In my case, the day I opened the beans, the first drink I pulled was quite acceptable though certainly nothing of note. The beans were in the hopper and it was the next day that I came back for the second shot. It was quite easy to identify that the beans had staled overnight and the only logical conclusion I can come to is that they were not roasted on the date I was told, as if they had, then the taste would not have changed in the way that it did.

If you put a bag of beans into your hopper and drink it over 4 days or so you will notice the characteristics change. You might need to adjust the grind as you get into the bag. These beans were past their best and there is absolutely no way of identifying when they were roasted to disprove that


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Step21 said:


> Beans is beans. What you do with them after purchase is up to you.
> 
> Eat the Mars bar or deep fry it...


The point I was making was if I buy beans to use in my espresso machine I do not see what I have to compromise in using other brew methods.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Take the refund. Move on.

It's a battle you cannot win. Coffee retailing is full of hyperbole and outright lies. Look at coffee pods. Big brand ground coffee. I know a chap who brands a bulk roaster's coffee and sells it through supermarkets. To read his bags you'd think he'd personally grown up with the farmers, carried the beans here himself, roasted them in a laboratory and tasted the output from every bag.

You experiment. Sometimes you find a Limini or CoffeeCompass or Foundry. Other times, well....

It's the price of having an opinion. We're most of us armchair critics anyway.


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## Christof (Nov 6, 2018)

I have just received a delivery from Baytown and as above have only a best before date June 19.

I got the company from the list of UK roasters here.

would it be an idea not to list companies who do not supply beans as expected?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Christof said:


> I have just received a delivery from Baytown and as above have only a best before date June 19.
> 
> I got the company from the list of UK roasters here.
> 
> would it be an idea not to list companies who do not supply beans as expected?


What did/didn't you expect? Ignore 'best before' dates - they are meaningless! If anything, 6 months is unrealistically long for roasted coffee. The date you should look for is the date they were roasted. Baytown probably roast to order so your beans were probably roasted just before or just after you ordered. You then allow maybe 7-10 days after roasting before they're degassed and ready for espresso. After that you've got about a month to use them (generally speaking).

BBE date of a year from roasting will be a lie, and is generally only found on supermarket rubbish that's probably stale by the time you get it anyway. It's done for legal and stock rotation reasons rather than anything to do with the coffee itself. Labelling regs also differentiate between "Best before" and "Use by" (best before is a recommendation for stuff like coffee, Use by is more of a warning on perishable items that will spoil and may become unsafe, like meat, fish or dairy). I could write BBE Dec 2039 on it but it wouldn't make the coffee behave any different from any other. Even domestic vacuum packing and freezing (both at once) will only slow the degradation by a few months. No need to start striking purveyors of fresh beans off just because nobody can agree exactly when constitutes 'best'. Baytown are a good roaster if you like it dark.

Without the benefit of tone of voice that probably came across as a lecture. It wasn't intended to (but I'm blowed if I'm rewriting it!) I just wanted to explain why your concern is unfounded.

Enjoy the Baytown. Preferably before the end of Jan if I were you!


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## Christof (Nov 6, 2018)

Thanks for the info much appreciated.

I am new to this espresso making and it was my first coffee order from an independent roaster.

from what I have read I was expecting to see a roasted on date so I can chose the best time to use them.

I bought a pack of 4x250grm mixed blends, from what I've read on this thread the 1kg packs have a roasted on date.

if I enjoy one of these packs I could order it in 1kg packs in future.

I did think after I posted I wasn't being fair to the person who put the list of roasters together but that wasn't the intention.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

To be fair I think I'd expect to see a roast date too really . . .


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yes me too to be honest. I also assumed that the bag had both dates on, but that obviously wasn't the case. I've only had Baytown once, we had their Bootleg on DSOL a while back. That coffee was excellent and pretty much everyone loved it. As it was DSOL I wasn't paying much attention to whether the date was RD or BBE, but would have assumed a roaster of their pedigree would be putting roast dates on rather than BBE anyway. Odd.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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