# Compak r120, is this the best grinder you can buy?



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

having owned and used A LOT of grinders, including most of the top end ones, I have settled on the compak R120, why you might ask? Well I know it is a behemoth weighing in at over 30 kgs and it is plain huge and impractical for a kitchen (unless you you just don't care), but I have been getting the most crystal clear of shots from this beast and as a bonus that clarity continues into brewed methodology, fruits are in your face, bold and beautiful a touch of sweetness but so clean.

It transcends all roast levels and will even grind for Turkish, there really is nothing grinder wise that this cannot do. So I open this thread for those that have it to discuss the beast and what we are getting from it and for those that don't to ask as many questions as they like









Love this image from frans









Just love the chain adjustment mech


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

What's the retention like ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Pretty much zero


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> Pretty much zero


Under what circumstances?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

so,why have these not caught on then, or are they just starting to?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> Under what circumstances?


Single dosing, just pop your weighed beans in the top and what comes out is what you out in, pretty much


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> so,why have these not caught on then, or are they just starting to?


I think it just didn't have the kudos of a famous barista behind it


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I was gonna ask about that with the size of the hopper!!! So that's just off permanent or you single with weight in hopper?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> so,why have these not caught on then, or are they just starting to?


they are not discreet and I am guessing this may have something to do with it fitting into a domestic setting . A bit akin to parking a dalek in the kitchen .

it is as they say a beast of a grinder !!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> I was gonna ask about that with the size of the hopper!!! So that's just off permanent or you single with weight in hopper?


No weight required with this bad boy just the beans you want to use, I leave the hopper on, spence has been plying using an aero press funnel


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> they are not discreet and I am guessing this may have something to do with it fitting into a domestic setting . A bit akin to parking a dalek in the kitchen .
> 
> it is as they say a beast of a grinder !!!


Yep totally with you, it is a grinder for someone who is in charge of the kitchen!


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

How about the R140?


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

I'd love to see one in the flesh, perhaps I can kill two birds and see one in a coffee shop and taste the goods too...


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

How does the size compare to my Royal?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Rob666 said:


> How about the R140?


R140 is three phase


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mr O said:


> How does the size compare to my Royal?


It is a lot bigger

Here it is next to the e10 and e8


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Ah, OK that explains why it isn't often mentioned. (R140)


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> It is a lot bigger
> 
> Here it is next to the e10 and e8
> 
> View attachment 15613


jeepers, I was thinking big but that's.... BIG!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mr O said:


> jeepers, I was thinking big but that's.... BIG!!


Footprint is not much different though, so no more counter space is taken up, royal is bigger than the e10 as well


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I think it just didn't have the kudos of a famous barista behind it


It's got you behind it

Interested to see how Spence gets on with it, his early indications were the flavour profile was a bit different to the German.

I just can't get on with the looks, it is nicer to use than the EK (switch, no thwacker) but it looks like a bollard or something


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I'd argue the grind profile limits flexability on brew ratios . Anecdotally levels of sweetness aren't there to match the EK v2 coffee burrs. That said , I'm happy to test one for a while : )


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> It's got you behind it
> 
> Interested to see how Spence gets on with it, his early indications were the flavour profile was a bit different to the German.


You are too kind!

Spence found the clarity amazing and the retention amazing too, it is different to the ek43 which has a sweetness in the shots unlike any other grinder, however the ek just doesn't give the clarity that the r120 does! Build quality is streaks ahead over the ek but it is an acquired taste in the looks department I will grant you that


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I'd argue the grind profile limits flexability on brew ratios . Anecdotally levels of sweetness aren't there to match the EK v2 coffee burrs.


Ask lee gary, the r120 might just pip the ek for brewed, now there's a shocker!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Build quality is streaks ahead over the EK


Anything flimsy on the EK is designed to be cheaply replaced. The body and motor will and has lasted decades.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Anything flimsy on the EK is designed to be cheaply replaced. The body and motor will and has lasted decades.


The paint is not cheap to replace and chips easier than any grinder I have owned


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> however the ek just doesn't give the clarity that the r120 does!


That's a bold statement , at what extraction yield ? What brew method ? I've not had similar levels of clarity as the EK from any grinder , Marco Uber Included .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> That's a bold statement , at what extraction yield ? What brew method ? I've not had similar levels of clarity as the EK from any grinder , Marco Uber Included .


Indeed it is gary, perhaps you should try one, I am no expert on brewed coffee as you and others are but I am sure lee will chip in soon enough, I can only comment on shots done side by side with the ek (coffe burrs) and the r120 on the l2


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> Indeed it is gary, perhaps you should try one


Don't have any gaping holes in my coffee enjoyment right now, nor the money to invest .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Don't have any gaping holes in my coffee enjoyment right now, nor the money to invest .


And that is all that matters, if you get what you want from the kit you have then perfect, I believe spence invited you down for a play on the beast?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> And that is all that matters, if you get what you want from the kit you have then perfect, I believe spence invited you down for a play on the beast?


He did but life's too busy right now and weekends are far too short


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> He did but life's too busy right now and weekends are far too short


Fair enough, would love your opinion on it though at some point


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Happy to run one at home or the roastery for a week. If it kicks ass then we'd say so. Can swap for mucho coffee


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> Yep totally with you, it is a grinder for someone who is in charge of the kitchen!


775mm!? Nearly 3ft tall!

I'm so not in charge of my kitchen.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Have you used the r8, r80 or r100? Any good?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jonc said:


> Have you used the r8, r80 or r100? Any good?


Considered all of them but they don't have the exit chute mechanism that the r120 has, so will probably retain a lot more coffee


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Happy to run one at home or the roastery for a week. If it kicks ass then we'd say so. Can swap for mucho coffee


Let me get it back for a couple of weeks then I will get it up to you for a couple of weeks


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> Considered all of them but they don't have the exit chute mechanism that the r120 has, so will probably retain a lot more coffee


Ah ok thanks. Watching with interest!


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I saw it at the forum day at Rave and actually think it is quite good looking. I like the stark industrial design. If I had the money (I don't) and the space (again no) and SWMBO signed off on it (snowball's chance in Dubai) I would prefer the looks of the R120 to the EK43. I have no doubt that the build quality of the EK43 is exceptional, but the R120 makes the EK43 look like Heath Robinson whipped it up in his garden shed.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Yeah I like its appearance too. But it's blinking massive (and about £1500 more than I can spend on a grinder!)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jonc said:


> Yeah I like its appearance too. But it's blinking massive (and about £1500 more than I can spend on a grinder!)


It does replace all the grinders though similar to the Ek


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> It does replace all the grinders though similar to the Ek


Don't tempt me - although I'll keep looking at it. (Anyway I only have 2 at the moment - £750 75e and a £50 Cimbali for decaf!)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jonc said:


> Don't tempt me - although I'll keep looking at it. (Anyway I only have 2 at the moment - £750 75e and a £50 Cimbali for decaf!)


Wait till brewed grips you


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> Wait till brewed grips you


Oh no! I've dabbled but I'm far too impatient.

(Always open to experiencing an epiphany though!)


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I've written some thoughts after spending a couple of weeks with the R120, I promise I'll post tomorrow, it's been one of those months!!


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## @3aan (Mar 2, 2013)

The EK 43 is coming in a cut-down version the stam will be quit a bit lower!


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## 2971 (May 7, 2012)

Based on nothing but blind prejudice, those chains make me imagine this must be rather noisy... Is it?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

No not at all, the chain mechanism is purely for the grind adjustment mechanism, it does not move during operation, the r120 is a lot quieter than the ek43 in operation


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## mrsimba (Mar 17, 2014)

Beauty & the beast!

In charge of the kitchen counter tops & actually have the space, having just bought the 75e though which I'm VERY pleased with & am only making brewed at the moment, but if in six months the R58 has still not pulled a shot & I'm a confirmed brewed man I could see the Rocket & 75e going to fund one of these & my coffee journey (domestically at least!) being reached


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

I think an Aeropress would look great next to an R120


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

What speed do those huge burrs spin at coffeechap?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mr O said:


> What speed do those huge burrs spin at coffeechap?


1400rpm


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Ok, quicker than expected but it makes no odds if it's doing the business.

I'm thinking of getting one to help me get rid of a big old plum tree in the back garden. I'm sure they can double as a chipper.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mr O said:


> Ok, quicker than expected but it makes no odds if it's doing the business.
> 
> I'm thinking of getting one to help me get rid of a big old plum tree in the back garden. I'm sure they can double as a chipper.


Have you got the side access to get it into the garden?


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

jonc said:


> Have you got the side access to get it into the garden?


I've got a mate who works for a crane company so he could crane it into the back garden


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

From distant hazy memory didn't coffeechap post a coffee grinder video last year of a beast of a thing...Chipping wood!

The R120 truly is "large" though. Saw and tasted the results of it in the one and only L1 shot I got to pour myself at the Rave day, even given my hamfisted amateur use of the L1 behind the counter was a very tasty shot, certainly the equal of anything pulled on other machines using an EK as grinder by far more experienced persons than I.

There was talk of getting a stool or box out so that people could see in the top (sorry Heligan ) as on the counter top really was high up.

Had I the money, probably would especially as the other members of our family like Daleks, would be an easy sell with some tennis balls stuck on the side









John


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mr O said:


> I've got a mate who works for a crane company so he could crane it into the back garden


Is it strong enough?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Want me to ask the work if I can borrow this to help you out?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You guys just need to get in the gym


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> You guys just need to get in the gym


I didn't have to train for a week after carrying that thing about Rave


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I would like to suggest that this is not the best grinder you can buy. It only is available to single people with holes in their head, who forget to wear caps on cold days. To be the best grinder in the world it has to be fit for purpose and be capable of actually fitting in your house


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Everybody s best grinder will be different - reflecting space, obsessiveness , taste preference and cash...I'm sure the people that have frankt latest incantation would suggest it is very good too.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Suggest away Dave, as far as grind quality and versatility go it is amazing, It is fit for purpose, it's a deli grinder that can work in a shop. Some people will use it in the home but that is not what it or pretty much any commercial grinder is designed to do, you had the two that were and moved them on!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The fax machine was a brilliant invention but totally redundant until someone else bought one

I am not saying it is not an amazing grinder, it is. I am saying it cannot be the best grinder in the world for a number of other, practicality based reasons.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

What's the fax machine quote got to do with anything!?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The fax machine was a brilliant invention but totally redundant until someone else bought one
> 
> I am not saying it is not an amazing grinder, it is. I am saying it cannot be the best grinder in the world for a number of other, practicality based reasons.


I don't hink I specified where it might be used in the original post, as I said before all commercial grinders are fit for purpose and that is in a commercial environment, we chose to adapt, adopt and modify them for our homes, some people with have space others won't. There are more than one of us that have these niw so it is beginning to be a good product.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Hey, I like the product! But my point is in the home environment it can only realistically be in a small number of homes because of its size. That is not knocking it at all but stating the fact that a lot of people who would love to own one cannot. Therefore it cannot be the best grinder in the world as affordability. And practicality must feature.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Fair enough, what grinder gets near it then across all environments and all brewing methodologies, only one springs to mind for me and that is just as big and is used in quite few households on here!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

depends on the criteria you set. to assess something, you need a criteria. The Bugatti Phaeton maybe the best car in the world, but if you added practicality, costing availability of householders to actually buy one, then it would be no where near the top.

Why do you think the Sage Dual Boiler does so well?They have pitched it correctly and I would not be surprised if there were more Sage DM machines in the UK than many other respected makes!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I have set the criteria best all round grinder! So

Many aspects may be at play, but grind consistency across all methods, quality and clarity of the end result, ability to single dose with zero retention, noise levels, size, build quality, price. Please give me an example as like I said so far for me there really is only one other grinder out there.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

No, it is not for me to suggest an alternative. It is up to you to explain how a grinder that is probably the least represented grinder in the UK, certainly in the domestic market can win.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I think I have covered those points and in the absence of your alternative I shall maintain my stance.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> depends on the criteria you set. to assess something, you need a criteria. The Bugatti Phaeton maybe the best car in the world, but if you added practicality, costing availability of householders to actually buy one, then it would be no where near the top.
> 
> Why do you think the Sage Dual Boiler does so well?They have pitched it correctly and I would not be surprised if there were more Sage DM machines in the UK than many other respected makes!


Do you mean the Bugatti Veyron?

The Bugatti Phaeton would possibly be a little too long in the tooth to be considered the best car in the world


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

You know what I mean! Something exclusive cannot win a best of award.....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

NickdeBug said:


> Do you mean the Bugatti Veyron?
> 
> The Bugatti Phaeton would possibly be a little too long in the tooth to be considered the best car in the world
> 
> View attachment 15635


He very traditional you know


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> You know what I mean! Something exclusive cannot win a best of award.....


But anyone can buy one, people spen a lot of money on kit on here, it will never be an entry level grinder but then the best of a lot of things are not!, unless you said best budget grinder! Or best small

Grinder, some people will use this in their home some people will be able to afford it some people will value the exceptional grind quality and zero retention, however some won't on all counts


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not knocking the grinder or its ability. I am saying its size prohibits it from being in many non commercial settings. If your claim excludes practicality and numbers owned then perhaps you are right.

I wonder what Tom thinks?


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

I think it matters not if a grinder is classed as "Best grinder" aside from ticking all boxes concerned sooner or later there will be another around the corner which will claim this and that. I think most people on the forum tend to think ahead on what grinder to get next I know I certainly do, and so long as manufacturers come up with the latest gizmo's I will always look at upgrading. as it happens I'm lucky to have the space for the R120 Hmm!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I am not knocking the grinder or its ability. I am saying its size prohibits it from being in many non commercial settings. If your claim excludes practicality and numbers owned then perhaps you are right.
> 
> I wonder what Tom thinks?


Tom will be putting his marvellous machine against it very soon. So we shall see, I like toms grinder and the work that has gone into it, but it is not available to anyone but tom so far, I will be happy to concede to a better grinder


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It was not a suggestion to it being better. It was a demonstration of another minority grinder. If the criteria for best grinder on the forum had a rule that there had to be 5 owners you would be knackered!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> If the criteria for best grinder on the forum had a rule that there had to be 5 owners you would be knackered!


Not for long though


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Soll said:


> I think it matters not if a grinder is classed as "Best grinder" aside from ticking all boxes concerned sooner or later there will be another around the corner which will claim this and that. I think most people on the forum tend to think ahead on what grinder to get next I know I certainly do, and so long as manufacturers come up with the latest gizmo's I will always look at upgrading. as it happens I'm lucky to have the space for the R120 Hmm!


I agree and my original post was a question, I sincerely hope that grinders get better as manufacturers have been somewhat lazy through the years,


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If Carlsberg made grinders, R120 would probably be the best grinder in the world, no, make that universe.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Soll said:


> I think it matters not if a grinder is classed as "Best grinder" aside from ticking all boxes concerned sooner or later there will be another around the corner which will claim this and that. I think most people on the forum tend to think ahead on what grinder to get next I know I certainly do, and so long as manufacturers come up with the latest gizmo's I will always look at upgrading. as it happens I'm lucky to have the space for the R120 Hmm!


I have room too... I have concerns for my financial stability....


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

What I get from the original post is the statement that this might be the grinder that delivers the best results in the cup across different brew methods.

It's caveats were stated.

If you want to be pedantic about it David (and I don't mean that in a negative way) I'd suggest a starting a separate thread with a scoring system or such like.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Can someone tell me who ( not what , who ) wins later.... I'm not sure I'll be able to sleep unless I have a definitive answer


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Can someone tell me who ( not what , who ) wins later.... I'm not sure I'll be able to sleep unless I have a definitive answer


The last 20 posts have put me to sleep already


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> The last 20 posts have put me to sleep already


are you including your own post in that number jeebsy?

I fail to see how someone can come on here and make a bold statement like CC has, and when anyone dares to question it as I have done....all the usual mice come out of their little holes to nibble away..


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> The last 20 posts have put me to sleep already


I think most threads transend into this type of thing, I would like to keep it about discussing this grinder

And answering questions that people want answered.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> are you including your own post in that number jeebsy?
> 
> I fail to see how someone can come on here and make a bold statement like CC has, and when anyone dares to question it as I have done....all the usual mice come out of their little holes to nibble away..


You have dared to question it and I appreciate that dave, I would like tom point out that my title is not a statement but a question and I am happy for healthy debate on the subject, as someone who has owned many grinders, albeit usually very briefly you are in a position to suggest alternatives based on your experience, but alas you decline.

I am more than happy for any questions about this grinder though and indeed how it compares

to any of the other grinders I have used!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Lets be honest , in the grand scheme of things . it doesn't really matter. One Dave can think one thing is best , another Dave can think another is best ....The Boots Spoonyomatic ( v4 ) will still rule them all ....

Im not gonna question what anyone thinks is best , I've not even used the grinder in question , and I'm just not bothered truth be told ...

Buy what you can afford , make tasty coffee , let people know what taste's good and is worth trying ....be happy ...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> are you including your own post in that number jeebsy?
> 
> I fail to see how someone can come on here and make a bold statement like CC has, and when anyone dares to question it as I have done....all the usual mice come out of their little holes to nibble away..


I don't think it was an entirely serious proposition, it's too subjective, tiresome and everyone knows the ek is the best grinder in the world anyway


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

I must admit I'm attracted by the fact you can single dose with this bad boy and with no retention, similar to the HG I m enjoying now. Dave as you've had both will the difference in the cup be staggering or just different


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Soll said:


> I must admit I'm attracted by the fact you can single dose with this bad boy and with no retention, similar to the HG I m enjoying now. Dave as you've had both will the difference in the cup be staggering or just different


It will certainly be a lot cleaner than the hg1, both grinders do different things, as all Ek owners will attest there is a sweetness for the Ek that is not achieved by any other grinders, but the r120 is IMHO more accurate in portraying the coffee in question, which to some pallets might be too much. Is it staggeringly different, probably not, but if you want to do brewed as well then there is so little out there to get near this. I am no expert in brewed but experts have said it is awesome.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not saying it is not the best grinder in the world, therefore it is not up to me to suggest what is. The best grinder in my world is the E10, but not everyone will agree, but I am not asking a question/making a statement now am I. All this is subjective as the only person on here who owns one (apart from Foundry) is you. I know you like to be impartial and I am sure you are spot on with your diagnosis, therefore anyone who wants to, has the right to come on here and test your theory.

You have no problem with that, but the usual suspects seem to.....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Come on Mr Kidd, don't pull punches , name em ....

get it out in the open once and for all , who are the illuminati ruling lizards you speak off


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I think that I have just spotted a potential gap in the market for Grinder Top Trumps.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NickdeBug said:


> I think that I have just spotted a potential gap in the market for Grinder Top Trumps.


I was already on it...

Can you wear the hopper as a hat ?

Can jeebsy bench press it ?

Biggest retention ? Biggest is best no?

Times bought by Dfk?

Do Bella Barista have it on offer ?

Reviewed By DaveC ?

No of Coffee Illuminati Endorsements ?

Famous Barista Face on it ?

Owned by how many lizards/usual suspects ?

Potential Barter worth in egg laying goatz ?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> One Dave can think one thing is best , another Dave can think another is best ....The


Think I will change my name to martin then there can be two


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

We go by aliases in the usual suspects Dave .....


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Can't we be like the reservoir dogs ?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Can't we be like the reservoir dogs ?


Dave Pink and Dave White?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

For those who are still interested in this, I found this on you tube


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Here is. Link to the thread spence has just posted on the r120

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?25506-R120-on-loan-first-impressions


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Another interesting perspective of the value of this grinder, is in the roast profiling area. What this grinder does well is clarity and the resulting cup is still similar in aspects to many of the mainstream flat grinders. What this

Means for a roaster is that if they profile using the r120, they will still know that the end user of the beans will still get the tasting notes from the coffee. I know Rob at rave started playing with the Ek for profiling and although he was getting exceptional shots from the Ek when the coffee was brewed, when he put the same coffee through hi shop grinder it was nothing like what he intended!

The versatility of the r120 is astounding!


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Hi Dave (cc) Saw this question was asked earlier but didn't see an answer, do you happen to know if the r80 and 100 are of a similar type of build , just scaled down or completely different beasts. Quite like the concept just wondering what concessions may have been made for smaller burrs as can find very little on the smaller versions, if indeed they are exactly that?

John


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

John, the concept and design are similar, however the smaller versions do not have the exit chute mechanism that the r120 has. I considered the smaller version as it is a lot cheaper, this is because of the motor burr size and the difference in design. Without the exit chute mechanism I believe (although cannot state as I have not used one) that there will be retention.

Another aspect that comes into play is the aperture size at the entry point to the burrs, it is bigger on the bigger burrs and coupled to the centrifugal forces at play on the r120 means that the beans once in the burrs do not come back out, thus it is a whole lot less susceptible to popcorning and the resulting grind inconsistency. Certainly an argument for bigger burrs are better.


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## bronc (Dec 10, 2012)

And let's not forget there is a R140


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

bronc said:


> And let's not forget there is a R140


Indeed and if I had three phase I would be giving it a try, alas I dont.


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## Cana (Mar 7, 2015)

CoffeeChap, How are you alive with all that counterspace taken up? My other half has luckily stopped complaining about my machine and my grinder taking up room, and has actually started using them. Similar situation with you?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The funny thing about counterspace is that the amount of setups I have seen where people have a grinder for spro a grinder for decaf a grinder for brewed, he counter is taken up with grinders whereas with thee r120 you only need one grinder, I only chose to keep the nino because I love the lool of it and having modified it I have an attachment to it, otherwise it would be gone.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> The funny thing about counterspace is that the amount of setups I have seen where people have a grinder for spro a grinder for decaf a grinder for brewed, he counter is taken up with grinders whereas with thee r120 you only need one grinder


Three wee grinders are like a village or hamlet on the bench, this is like having the Shard pop up


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

If someone wants to loan me one, I will demonstrate how it can work in a very (and I mean very) tiny kitchen. I have an ex-commercial and the footprint of the R120 isn't that much longer. Where I have my grinder does not have cupboards above, so height is not an issue. If the grind is at least as good as good as the EK43, this takes its place as the grinder I lust for but need a lottery win to ever afford.

Or I could wait for dfk41 to get one and shift it on after a couple of months (gentle kidding not to be confused with insult)


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Three wee grinders are like a village or hamlet on the bench, this is like having the Shard pop up


I like the Shard and prefer London (well more Manchester) to sleepy villages and hamlets


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I love this photo of little and large


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

But this is a better perspective next to an e10 master and the Ek


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> But this is a better perspective next to an e10 master and the Ek
> 
> View attachment 15648


I'm guessing the r120 is on the floor or something in this pic?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

How much of the body of the R120 is empty space? Or it is one mahoosive motor?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Casing is pretty much full


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Of motor?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jonc said:


> I'm guessing the r120 is on the floor or something in this pic?


Same bench as the other two, you should note that the cremina in the other photo is a tiny tiny lever


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Of motor?


From the thwacker up is burrs and various mechs, below that is all motor i think


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

I was about to ask if that was an Olympia as I have only seen one on interweb pictures (which I suppose this is as well). I'm off topic here aren't I? I shall have to mod myself.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Thats a pretty huge motor, the EK to its side looks like its motor would fit in half the height of the R120 body! It may just be the angle of the photo however. Pretty sure I could get this into my kitchen, just need to wait until the girlfriend is out, bust a massive hole in the counter and rest it on the shelf in the cupboard below. Sorted.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Dylan said:


> Thats a pretty huge motor, the EK to its side looks like its motor would fit in half the height of the R120 body! It may just be the angle of the photo however. Pretty sure I could get this into my kitchen, just need to wait until the girlfriend is out, bust a massive hole in the counter and rest it on the shelf in the cupboard below. Sorted.


Ha ha! I was actually thinking along similar lines!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ridland said:


> I was about to ask if that was an Olympia as I have only seen one on interweb pictures (which I suppose this is as well). I'm off topic here aren't I? I shall have to mod myself.


No that one was my little cremina


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## mazi (Jan 21, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> Indeed and if I had three phase I would be giving it a try, alas I dont.


According to compak spare parts there are other voltage/phase options.

http://www.compak.es/docs/R140_D.pdf

first page, electric plug (part B)

Looking at the exploded technical drawings of R120. Is it possible to change the burrs to 140mm?

R120 -> R140

K04325 -> K04345

K04120 -> K04140

K04914 -> K04915

K04320 -> K04340


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Just to give some kind of scale to these discussions...









nb. please note that the R120 is reduced by distance perspective

and has somehow really pissed off Godzilla


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Now it really looks like a levitating dalek.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Just to add to the discussion, I thought it might be worth putting in my thoughts. I'd start with a couple of things to bear in mind. Firstly, it's early days. Coffeechap, as usual, very generously offered us his unit for a couple of weeks. I've taken delivery of a new unit, late last week from Compak but haven't even fired it up as yet. For these reasons, I will add more stuff later when I've really been able to put it through it's paces. I'm planning to compare the EK to the R120, side by side at some point in the next couple of weeks but I want to wait until I have the time to do it properly. Secondly, we are UK Authorised Compak dealers. As such, it may be difficult for people to really accept that I'm trying to offer an unbiased opinion, I hope not.

I've been thinking of getting a grinder for the roastery that would contribute something new to the profiling process and I also wanted something that would make knockout brews and grind the occasional bag of coffee for a customer. Until this point, in my mind at least, there was only really one grinder that could do all this, the EK43. After trying out the R120, I made up my mind within a few days that this would be the best option for us. As a result, we sold one of the Royals and I'll soon be selling the Mahlkoenig Guatemala too, to contribute towards the cash needed!

Firstly, the things that I'm not so keen on. The grinder itself is massive. It's really heavy too, although the whole thing is much more manageable with the hopper removed. Still, it weights in at 37kg or thereabouts. The dial on the front could be designed better in that it could do with having more numbers on and the numbers need to be closer to the notch on the knob to make it easier to see where you are.

The things I like are numerous. The build quality is extremely good. The engineering is impressive and this is certainly the most bulletproof-feeling grinder I've ever seen. The metalwork is very high quality, thick and well finished; the burr chamber cleverness and the chain-assisted burr adjustment is really well made and just oozes quality. The R120 is also very quiet in operation, even next to the EK, which isn't a massively noisy grinder. The switch is much better than the one on the EK and this makes the grinder easier to use. The hopper is large and very well made, thick plastic and a really good quality lid mechanism. Incidentally, you can get the grinder with the standard clear plastic hopper, or there is also a smoked, semi-translucent or opaque black option ay no extra cost.

The thwacker is also better than on the EK, just a slicker bit of engineering. Personally, I like the obviously functional one on the EK but the R120 works better, and it's much less messy. Looks-wise, I don't have a strong view either way with the R120. It just seems as though it's built for function and it has a really minimalist design that I like. I do like the look of the EK too though, all that stuff is just personal preference I guess.

Retention really is pretty much zero, and obviously this is a strong point. The EK continues to chuck out coffee after several thwacks in my experience and this is quite a bit better on the R120. The grinder produces amazing grinds happily whilst single dosing which is incredible really. It's at least a match for the EK, speed-wise, maybe even faster - it absolutely chews through bags of coffee!

I've pretty much exclusively used the grinder for brewed coffee and I have been astounded by some of the brews that I have been able to make, the results in the cup are as good as I've ever had.

So, that brings me on to the big question, is the R120 better than the EK? - my view, for what it's worth is that no, it's not better. I think it is as good though. From my early experiences, I prefer the R120 as a profiling grinder. It seems to be really good at producing incredibly clean brews with sweetness and great body. It's the clarity that stands out in the cup - crisp, clean layers of flavour. Most of the brews I made were tasting incredible at around 22%. I would expect that the same characteristics would be present for espresso too, which seems tie in with Spence's experiences. I'm looking forward to exploring this bit more.

For profiling, transparency is everything and this is something that perhaps makes an EK a less obvious choice in the roastery. The EK, steered by Callum has given me some of the best coffee I have ever tasted in my life, whether brewed or as espresso - and I know that it will continue to do so, I'd struggle to live without an EK. I've had the sweetest shots, and I'm not sure whether the R120 would be able to create those (but looking forward to finding out). The main consideration for me though is that the EK seems to do something different to coffee for me, like no other grinder. These things are all good things but I'd never be confident about creating flavours in the cup that cafe owners and home enthusiasts would be able to enjoy, unless they had an EK too of course. In summary, I think that the R120 sits firmly at the top of the tree that has all the grinders other than the EK in it!

So, for me the context is different. I really wouldn't want to live without either grinder but the R120 edges it as its better suited to what I'm doing at the roastery. In reality, I would always want both and would argue that between the two of them, grinding coffee isn't going to get much better.

Maybe a more interesting question is which one would you choose if you could have only one for home use? - I'd struggle here if I'm being completely honest. I know that the EK would constantly give me amazing coffee, as it has for a good while now - and I don't yet know if I'll be able to get the same from the R120. I'm also already fairly confident that the EK can't get to the level of clarity and definition that the R120 offers. I would suggest that the EK is a steeper learning curve but it gets you to a really great place. The R120 is more straightforward and just goes somewhere slightly different, just as 'good'. I'm in the lucky position of having access to both grinders so I'm really glad I don't have to make any choices.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Tempted to get one of these for my kitchen as well as the EK...*

*for science


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> Just to give some kind of scale to these discussions...
> 
> View attachment 15652
> 
> ...


a la Father Ted.

Ok one last time.

This one is small (points at EK43)

But the ones out (R120) there are far away.

Small...far away.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Godzilla isn't upset. He's just watching a roasting demo by Starbucks.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ridland said:


> This one is small (points at EK43)


Have you seen how big an Ek is?


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> Have you seen how big an Ek is?


Yes you joy stroking chin stealer


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Ah damn. Hadn't realised this before but the burrs will need replacing every 12000kg.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Ah damn. Hadn't realised this before but the burrs will need replacing every 12000kg.


For all the people considering one for the home, this is only 230 years of burr life if you drink 1kg a week. Might be a deal breaker!

For a roaster... That's a lot of money on burrs. Twice a year or more potentially for a large operation? Not sure how this stacks up against the burr life of the other grinders commonly used on this scale.


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## mrsimba (Mar 17, 2014)

risky said:


> For all the people considering one for the home, this is only 230 years of burr life if you drink 1kg a week. Might be a deal breaker!


Need to factor for steel degradation from oxygen & moisture so maybe good practice to change them every century!!!


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

risky said:


> For all the people considering one for the home, this is only 230 years of burr life if you drink 1kg a week. Might be a deal breaker!
> 
> For a roaster... That's a lot of money on burrs. Twice a year or more potentially for a large operation? Not sure how this stacks up against the burr life of the other grinders commonly used on this scale.


I think that the big roasters tend to use grinders that operate on a whole new scale. A guy from Ditting Mahlkonig was telling me that that they supply burrs for one of these companies every 6 months at £2000 a pop. Ouch.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

It's an interesting point you make though. This week I ground the 4th or 5th bag of coffee so far this year. Almost all our orders nowadays are for whole beans. As such, I hadn't really considered this grinder in that context. It does apparently need a 1 minute rest after 2 minutes of constant grinding, so I guess wouldn't be great for someone needing to do massive volumes. I put about 6kg through it out of curiosity and it absolutely chews it up, I'd guess at about the same rate as the EK.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Had quite a few more brews from the R120 and although I've yet to do a side by side comparison with the EK, I've been massively impressed. It's the clarity and the transparency with this grinder that sets it apart from anything else I've used.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Had quite a few more brews from the R120 and although I've yet to do a side by side comparison with the EK, I've been massively impressed. It's the clarity and the transparency with this grinder that sets it apart from anything else I've used.


Is that across brewed and spro?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ive been playing with one. I have to say I bet better 'clarity' from the EK but the R120 is better in the cup in some respects......but more on that later.

I have a reflectometer too this weekend so will do a proper analysis


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Is that across brewed and spro?


Hoping to have a really good session with it on spro soon, haven't really used it much in that context so talking about brews. It just seems to open up the coffee so much, like everything in there is bigger and more obvious, both the good and the bad. So, it's really good for progressing profiles. It's going over old ground to say that it's different to the EK but that's what's so good about it in a way - it's a true alternative. If I could only ever have one to use, I'm still lot sure which I'd plump for - I know I'd really miss both.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> I have a reflectometer too this weekend so will do a proper analysis


Yeah, I want to do this too. It'd be interesting to see where the sweet spot is for both grinders using the same coffee. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the EK tastes better at higher extractions. I'd love to do a blind test with people, best shot from EK, versus best shot from R120. That would be super interesting.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Aaagh I'm so going to end up with one of these just for looksies


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

My plan is 3 simple tests. All using the same coffee.

1. Dial both grinders to 20g - > 50g - > 30 seconds. Note flavours and EY %.

2. Dial both grinders into the highest EY % i can achieve and note flavours.

3. Make my standard Brazen brew using each grinder and note flavours and EY %

My initial view is that the R120 behaves in a more conventional way, favouring traditional recipes and yields (but does them better than anything else I've tasted). We will see if it can be pushed in the same way the EK can be. Actually the EK needs to be pushed to get the best out of it IMO.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Test 1 (not enough time to do proper tasting)

R120 . 3 shot averages. shots were 34 sec, 33 sec, 36 sec.

19.97g - > 46.79g

TDS 8.2%

*EY 19.91%*

EK43. 3 shot averages. shots were 32 sec, 30 sec, 34 sec.

19.89g - > 47.39g

TDS 8.6%

*EY 21.23*


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

robashton said:


> Aaagh I'm so going to end up with one of these just for looksies


As long as you don't mind something the size of an Oompah-Loompah standing on the worktop in your kitchen!


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

It's bigger than an Oompah-Loompah to be fair.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Without a David Dickinson suntan


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Have you seen the copper finish?


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

I spoke too soon


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

CamV6 said:


> As long as you don't mind something the size of an Oompah-Loompah standing on the worktop in your kitchen!


I'm single and I rarely cook, I could get away with having the EK and this side by side...


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Have you seen the copper finish?


Prefer the EK43 copper colour but that still looks wild!

Anyway, the R120 is tiny really, at least when compared to this:


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

In that photo, it looks about 6 inches tall.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> In that photo, it looks about 6 inches tall.


And it has wheels so you can move it about on your kitchen side easily - very convenient.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Test 3. Brazen - consistent!. Goddam my dialling-in skills are on point too.

13.5g

250g water

93c

EK43

9 on 3FE

1.15% TDS

*20.09% EY*

Clear , transparent , incredible sweetness and acidity. Lacks body tho and clearly has more to give. Knowing the EK I would redo this a touch finer and drop the dose 0.5g, wanting >21-22% EY, we can keep going to 23-24 if needed and things just get sweeter and sweeter.

Acidity - 9

Sweetness - 8

Clarity - 8

body - 4

r120

55 grind setting

1.16%

*20.12 EY*

Much more body, rounder, less obvious acidity . A Touch drying and a little bovril 'jarring'. Id want to up the dose a tad and coarsen the grind maybe. Its hard to tell where the sweetspot lies for the r120. I feel if I push the extraction any further the drying will progress to bitterness and even less clarity. This might be the limit.

Acidity - 5

Sweetness - 7

Clarity - 6

body - 8

--------------------

Think music for one moment. This test reveals to me that this is all about EQ settings. Listening to the same music with these two grinders, however the EK is more sub bass and treble focused, whereas the r120 is more bass and midrange. Both sound good and everyone will have a preference.

I think the r120 operates best around the 18-20% EY (like 'normal' grinders) however its the best coffee has tasted in this range IMO.

The EK has /wants/needs to be pushed to higher EY (19-24%) to get the best out of it, sometimes thats a struggle but once there its leagues ahead in terms of clarity , complexity and sweetness.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Great work Gary. I'd say that our impressions are very much in line with yours, but (so far) without the testing that you have been able to do here. They are very different grinders, it's like comparing cars, it's more about preference at this level. As I've said before, the fact that the R120 is just like a really good version of what most people have at home means that it makes more sense for us to have as a roastery reference tool.

The music thing is a good analogy too. I used to work in the music industry as a sound engineer. The R120 would be the speakers that we'd use to make sure that everything sat properly in the mix. We'd know that if it did, it would sound good at home. The EK isn't really able to do this in the same way. Still, I don't want to think of a coffee world without the amazing shots that are possible with an EK and someone who knows what they're doing with it - you wouldn't be able to replicate those shots with an R120.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Test 3. Brazen - consistent!. Goddam my dialling-in skills are on point too.
> 
> 13.5g
> 
> ...


Ek v60 23.9 % - French Kenyan - happy times . sooooooooo sweet


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Another test. Espresso.

18g- (in 20g VST) >55g->30 sec. Point being to check clarity and sweetness with long 6 BAR pulls

r120 18.00g - > 55.50 - > 30 sec

TDS 6.3% - *EY 20.13%*

EK43 17.89 - > 55.51 - > 29 sec

TDS 6.5% - *EY 20.89%*

r120 - Thin, bright, overly acidic , touch of bitterness, fake sweetness. 6/10

ek43 - Viscous , depth, sugary sweetness, chocolate, apricot acidity, creamy and moreish. 8/10

I should try some thinner longer pulls more often.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

At 6.5% tds still viscous ?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> At 6.5% tds still viscous ?


Comparatively next to the other beverage yes. TDS is only the dissolved solids


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Comparatively next to the other beverage yes. TDS is only the dissolved solids


Yes i know ............BR would indicate a " lighter mouthfeel "


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yes i know ............BR would indicate a " lighter mouthfeel "


Im comparing A versus B . Not B versus every other espresso I've ever consumed ; )


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Im comparing A versus B . Not B versus every other espresso I've ever consumed ; )


I was comparing it to IV


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

hmmm, not sure about the point of that test though. The R120 isn't going to do well when pulling EK style shots. A 2x BR with more 'normal' levels of body would play more to the R120's strengths. As we know, the EK, likes to be, needs to be, pushed. The R120 isn't the same sort of beast in that respect.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> hmmm, not sure about the point of that test though. The R120 isn't going to do well when pulling EK style shots. A 2x BR with more 'normal' levels of body would play more to the R120's strengths. As we know, the EK, likes to be, needs to be, pushed. The R120 isn't the same sort of beast in that respect.


Patience patience patience. Can only do one test at a time. Ill be doing the short stuff too ; )

I actually capped the extractions at c.20% to keep things 'normal' albeit lungo stylee


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Excellent, I must be getting over-excited. Looking forward to it.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Once I get it back I will be taking the beast over to rave to do some side by sides myself see how the results compare. Will be refracting as well.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ek v60 23.9 % - French Kenyan - happy times . sooooooooo sweet


Is sweetness everything then?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Is sweetness everything then?


yes

i certainly prefer it to bitter .....









Sweetness balanced with clarity of taste , is my preference

I havent had a really good shot off the r120

I havent had more than 3 shots off an r120

so my opinion as always should count for nowt.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ek v60 23.9 % - French Kenyan - happy times . sooooooooo sweet


You've a way to go to match my 26% EY Brazen at the roastery the other day (with a sample roast). Almost chucked it away before tasting too. Glad i didn't . I was about as far as I'd ever like to go. Still not bitter!


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Ohhhhh you edited it and I was just about to do acid puns, bah! Spoilsport......


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Not sure how much sweetness the EK is going to create with 1.5 ratio. We shall see , lol.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Not sure how much sweetness the EK is going to create with 1.5 ratio. We shall see , lol.


Not a great deal

the tds may blow your head off


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Not a great deal
> 
> the tds may blow your head off


TDS for show

EY for dough

or something like that


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## mrsimba (Mar 17, 2014)

Interesting reading Reiss @ Londiniums thoughts between the two machines,



> whether you want an R120 or a Mahlkoenig EK43 will depend on whether you want a coffee microscope to taste every minute aspect of your coffee, good & bad, or whether you want a 'magic box' that completely transforms the taste of the coffee in ways that are not always predictable or recognisable (that is a huge compliment to the EK43 by the way - but it in no way provides an accurate representation of what the bean tastes like). it may also depend on how important timely after sales support is to you too. in pure engineering terms the R120 is so much more advanced, its laughable


http://londiniumespresso.com/forum/londinium-i-owners-forum/425-a-thread-about-espresso-grinders/page-13


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Seems to echo whats being found here.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Thread split to keep on topic

To catch up on the Water thoughts head here http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?26051-Water-profiles-effect-on-taste&p=339907#post339907


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

A comedy test. No refrac , forgot to take it from work.

Set the sage to a straight 9.5 BAR and full-pelt flow rate - old school!

Recipe 18g - > 30g -> 28 seconds , old school!

EK43 17.95g->30.45g->27 sec (I couldn't grind any finer)

Oh dear. Bares the acidity of something under-extracted and the body and sweetness of something horrendously over-extracted.

3/10 thats being generous.

R120 18.03g ->30.55g -> 28 sec (Loads of room to go finer)

Hmm a bit better. Still quite harsh and rough, the middles a little clearer, I can recognise the actual coffee, could do with more sweetness and less jarring acidity.

4.5/10

and at that point i gave up, too much caffeine for one evening.

Summary - I dont like traditional ratio espresso unless its through an espresso grinder (even then I prefer less compact chewy shots)

- The EK43 is useless on a machine without at least pre infusion , ideally flow rate and pressure restricted.

- R120 runs much more traditionally , had i bothered to go finer (over 35 seconds) we would have had some decent shorts shots, no bother.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

What you need is a lever! The r120 on traditional type shots pulled on the l2 are knockout


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

OK lets level the playing field. Espresso.

18g - >36g - >30 seconds or as close as with the last of this coffee. Aiming for a 20-21% EY

R120

18.05g ->37.5g ->28 seconds

Thick, creamy , amazing crema, rich , deep, quite sweet, balanced and well amalgamated acidity. But , some fairly obvious bitterness which detracts a little and finishes a tiny bit rough

7/10

EK43

19.98g - >36.9g - >29 sec

Buttery, syrupy, crema quickly dissipated. Christ-on-a-bike sweetness, so so clean. Acidity more pronounced. zero bitterness. best espresso in ages. Left with nom in mouth

8.5/10


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is almost enough to make me want to run out and buy one.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

NOT!


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I guess there is a need to find the sweet spot on the R120, which I expect will be around 20%. I think I'm going to do a bit of testing myself. I'm surprised you're finding bitterness with those numbers Gary. Maybe the coffee was profiled using an EK


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> I guess there is a need to find the sweet spot on the R120, which I expect will be around 20%. I think I'm going to do a bit of testing myself. I'm surprised you're finding bitterness with those numbers Gary. Maybe the coffee was profiled using an EK


Im very sensitive to bitterness , if its in balance fine , if its a touch over baring I no likey.

I suspect the EK shot would have got better run to 40g and the R120 shot better if i'd capped it at 34-35g


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> It is almost enough to make me want to run out and buy one.........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
> 
> ....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................
> 
> NOT!


I bet you do


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

To put these scores in perspective .

Belleville's 'French Roast' espresso blend via the Mythos 1 & Black Eagle. 19g->34g->29 sec extracted to 21% scored a 6.5/10. It was pretty good


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## KopiO (Nov 8, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> Considered all of them but they don't have the exit chute mechanism that the r120 has, so will probably retain a lot more coffee


Dear CoffeeChap, So, can I manually brush out the retention in the R100 Chute? Thank you


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

KopiO said:


> Dear CoffeeChap, So, can I manually brush out the retention in the R100 Chute? Thank you


quite possibly, but having not tried one because they don't have the mechanism I could not say for sure, but am interested in your findings if you have an r100


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## KopiO (Nov 8, 2014)

Thank you CoffeeChap, Actually I was thinking to buy the R100, But if the retention is THE problem, than I better stay in my OE Pharos manual grinder


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

like I said I really don't know, just suspect that it will be an issue, grind quality will be better than the pharos


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## mrsimba (Mar 17, 2014)

KopiO said:


> Dear CoffeeChap, So, can I manually brush out the retention in the R100 Chute? Thank you


From this post over on the Londinium forum it looks like Compak supply a wire brush to clean out the chute with the machine.



> i expect the R100 gives a similar taste in the cup to the R120
> 
> the retention on the R100 is likely to be greater than the R120 (which is running an average of less than 0.2g in my ownership of the R120) as the R100 does not have the mechanised stainless steel wire sweeper rotating inside the exit chute
> 
> ...


http://londiniumespresso.com/forum/londinium-i-owners-forum/253-what-about-a-londinium-grinder/page-9


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

They do supply a wire brush but the retention on the R100 would be in the burr chamber, rather than the chute. I've never used the R100 so no idea whether retention is much of an issue or not though.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

So 20 pages on this subject and I'm curious....

1. How many people on the forum own a R120

2. Compak r120, is this the best grinder you can buy, what is the conclusion?

As you can tell I have not studied all 20 pages...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

1. 4 so far

2. It is still open for debate, but based on my findings so far I have been pretty hard pushed to find a better grinder than this, however it is exceptionally large and not the most kitchen friendly of grinders. But and this is a but, if you have the space it is a one stop shop for all grinding requirements, zero retention with no degradation of grind quality when single dosing, superb solid build quality and fantastic grind quality.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I have been pretty hard pushed to find a better grinder than this


....for you


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

@jeebsy Ek fanboy ;-)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> ....for you


Not only me, horses for courses Jeebsy.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Not only me, horses for courses Jeebsy.


For you and Franz and the other people for whom it's the best, not for other people for whom it isn't the best. We're not on top gear, it doesn't have to be the bestest grinder in the world


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> For you and Franz and the other people for whom it's the best, not for other people for whom it isn't the best. We're not on top gear, it doesn't have to be the bestest grinder in the world


Well actually I was addressing the question Jeebsy, my retort was honest, I said I would be hard pushed to find a better grinder, that is not saying there is not a better grinder, or it is the best grinder out there! I like a lot of grinders that are out there, for different readons, I am pretty honest and transparent in my comments about grinders. I don't really care if anyone else thinks it is great rubbish or indifferent, I think it is very good, as do most of those who have had the opportunity to try it out.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

There's no objective truth, just like there's no best grinder


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> There's no objective truth


Unless it's a paradox


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> *There's no objective truth*, just like there's no best grinder


That's true... Oh hang on!!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> There's no objective truth, just like there's no best grinder


But anfim make one


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

The best grinder you can buy is the one that helps YOU make coffee the way YOU like to drink it. Its always nice to hear about grinders that are less well known and still good though - and so Coffeechap has done us all a service in getting that conversation going, which along with the work that Gary did, helps us all to know a bit more about the grinder. That's why I love the forum, people being passionate and generous with their time.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Reunited at last, let the good times roll


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

@coffeechap Looks like a bag of Londinium beans - what do you think to them?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Very nice but there will be better stuff on the horizon


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## jamfit (Apr 27, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> Reunited at last, let the good times roll
> 
> View attachment 16790


Wow that must be some combined weight........


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

indeed it is, there is 100 kg on that bench


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> But anfim make one


Which Anfim do you have in mind? Or is this an advertising quote?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

here it is


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

Oh I get it! The ANFIM 'Best'! LOL!


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## canuckcoffeeguy (Mar 29, 2016)

Hope it's ok resurrecting an older thread. This was the most recent R120 discussion I could find.

Curious what R120 users think of it these days, now that they've had more time to play with it -- particularly for espresso? It's starting to get some attention over here in North America, too.

It certainly is a countertop beast.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Still have mine on the bench and for those that know me it says a lot. It is superb at clean accurate espresso, still zero retention, static free grind and an amazing partner to my Londinium l1-p it gs3 mp


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## canuckcoffeeguy (Mar 29, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> Still have mine on the bench and for those that know me it says a lot. It is superb at clean accurate espresso, still zero retention, static free grind and an amazing partner to my Londinium l1-p it gs3 mp


Nice. And consistently better body and mouthfeel than the EK43?

Aside from being massive and expensive, it appears to be a single dosing dream for conventional, non-EK43 espresso.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

What I would say is it is different to the EK they both have their merits and having had them both side by side I chose to stick with the r120. There is more mouthfeel/body and excellent clarity to the shots with the r120. There is no need to do WDT to get all the coffee out as there is very little static. Shot prep is similar to the EK which is a little more effort than an on demand grinder, but the small amount of effort is definitely worth it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

http://grindscience.com/2015/07/compak-r120-first-impressions/


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## canuckcoffeeguy (Mar 29, 2016)

coffeechap said:


> What I would say is it is different to the EK they both have their merits and having had them both side by side I chose to stick with the r120. There is more mouthfeel/body and excellent clarity to the shots with the r120. There is no need to do WDT to get all the coffee out as there is very little static. Shot prep is similar to the EK which is a little more effort than an on demand grinder, but the small amount of effort is definitely worth it.


Sounds like my kind of grinder. I value mouthfeel, body and clarity in my shots. I rarely make milk drinks, so I'm fussy about my straight shots. I always single dose my K10PB. But there's the well known routine required to single dose this grinder. And I need to WDT for consistency.

I finally had a chance to taste a shot from the Mahlkonig Peak last week. It was a single origin Ethiopian. It was supremely juicy, fruity and sweet, with some wine dryness. I can see the appeal of this EK43 type shot. But it lacked body and mouthfeel.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

So, to join in the thread resurrection...

I finally managed to have a shot off of an R120 (and slayer!) at the Compak Stall at LCF. Unfortunately they weren't really setup for demoing the R120, and as a result the grinder wasn't quite dialled in. The shot of espresso I had was great - layered, complex and extremely tasty, however the pourover they attempted really wasn't up all that great (I strongly suspect this was down to impromptu choice of bean and grinder setup). It suprised me they weren't setup to show the R series off (I think they were setup with the fresh OD line), but it doesn't appear a lot of pushing of this series has been done - there were EK43s everywhere at LCF, but I only saw one other R series (on the sanremo stand iirc).

So basically I didn't get the demo I precisely wanted, and I'm having to interpolate from what I did get - I really wish I could have had the same bean on both EK43 and R120 as I think that would have been very telling. Some people seem to feel that the EK is not massively suitable for say milk or other long drinks, specialising mostly in straight espresso.

My question for the owners would be - is this the great allrounder that its made out to be (espresso / milk / americano and great filter / aeropress) - the shot I had certainly was impressive, but this would be a very much one for all grinder for me if I were to get it.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

try giving Lee @ Foundry a shout.

Xpenno, Gary **** and of course Coffeechap have all run them head to head as well.

From my point of view, the R120 is exceptionally easy to switch between different beans for the same brew method, or different grind sizes for different brew methods.

I have limited experience with the EK43 and never side by side so don't really feel qualified to offer an opinion on it. It does seem to offer something different, and as most of those listed above have ended up back with the EK, maybe it is good different.

I have no plans to change.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Funnily enough I am already in contact with Lee, and he has been very helpful indeed up to this point. I will give him another shout


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## chupulio (Feb 21, 2017)

Didn't know which Thread to continue, hope this one fits. I am thinking hard over my grinder Upgrade, and am closing in on some favorites. One of them is the R120. Are the ones using it now still satisified with the results? Saw a few being sold in the last months...

Also, since it is capable for such a wide range of coffee types, isn't the range for espresso somewhat limited. With pure espresso grinder like ceado e37s or k30, you have a whole dial for fine-tuning, will the small section of the espresso part of the R120 dial do for optimum results?

Would appreciate some feedback!

(Since it is not my first language, please excuse if hard to read!)

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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Only aware of 2 being sold in the last 9 months albeit they have moved between forum members, mine being 1 of them and the one in this thread from the start with Coffeechap (it had a very brief week or two after CC with another forum member and been with me since middle of 2016). The other one bought by a forum member who let it go for space reasons to another member who reluctantly had to let it go as had to lay off caffeine for a while and currently with another forum member.

Very happy with mine so much so have no intention of selling and to be honest would not even know what would replace it with if I did.

It is remarkably transparent imparting none of its own artefacts / character to the bean yet still digging out all that is in there if that makes sense and extremely useful for roast analysis / development of profiles.

I stepped up from a Mythos (which I still have) and was a major step up not just in burr size (75>120) but in taste also, all the flavours were there just now more of them / more intense. Is also ridiculously quick with practically zero retention so very much used as a single dose grinder, no way a timer could be accurate as grinds 18g in 2-3 seconds and a 250g bag in about 30.

Have yet to anywhere near it's finest setting and whilst might appear to have a limited espresso area on the dial it isn't limited at all, has quite a range available for any bean have come across to date including Nordic roasts through darker softer brasiians. It does seem to have a broader sweet spot not being as peaky or needing to be super exact as others do including the mythos.

Can't compare it to the e37 / K30 but has more range for espresso than the mythos if that helps, with the added benefit of serving pour over duty, cafetiere and bulk grinding as well and then go straight back to where was for espresso (dial could be better for this but a sticky label works a treat







) You would find this very hard to do on the two grinders mentioned, not impossible, just hard work.

Size wise: need a big kitchen height wise but takes up no more footprint in real terms than a mythos or K10.

Easy to clean the burrs, as is the bottom burrs that get adjusted for grind, so clean, put back together in less than 5 minutes at the same grind setting prior to start.

Burr life: 12,000Kg likely to outlast me !

Hope the above of help in your research.

John


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

As another former owner I would agree with many of the advantages listed above by John.

I changed as I have settled a bit in my drinking habits and am now happy to use an on-demand with a couple of 100g in the hopper.

Do I miss the R120? Sometimes. If was so easy to adjust and the flavour depth was excellent.

Would I buy another? Nope. More than I need for my caffeine habit and I slowly working my way back to a pestle and mortar.

Do I recommend it? If you are the sort to have lots of different beans on the go and like to switch between brew methods then it's hard to see what could beat this. You won't get the high extraction that the EK enthusiasts like, but it is so easy to use and doesn't leave your kitchen covered in coffee.

If you get one then I recommend investing in a Tala flour sifter as well and I would avoid grinding directly into portafilter.


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## chupulio (Feb 21, 2017)

Thanks for the input! I think it comes down to the question of single-dosing vs on demand, which as of now i cannot answer good enough to decide between the R120 and a ceado e37s or compak e8, which would be my od choices.

Life is hard that way...

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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The r120 is so much more versatile, you will not waste coffee, enjoy better coffee although it is big


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

My switch was from the R120 to the E8.

E8 is more than enough for my needs, but then I am not single dosing anymore.

As CC says, the R120 is more versatile, but it is also twice the price (which is alot of coffee waste) and looks like it could be used to grind other grinders.

The zero retention on the R120 is remarkable though. It was never under and on occasion came back over. It was therefore creating coffee!


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## chupulio (Feb 21, 2017)

The question is, will i be switching beans enough to justify single-dosing... An e8 or ceado would maybe be a bit less hassle. Thinking of hosting some friends i.e., weighing each cup separately, oh my...

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## chupulio (Feb 21, 2017)

But i guess there is no question wether the R120 is good or not!

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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Weigh beans, throw in top, weigh grinds. Process probably still quicker than using an OD when you take into account filling / setting up timers etc on a shot by shot basis (I state this based on experiences using the Mythos with 75mm titanium burrs which are not exactly a slouch either)

Is not really about speed of grind though or at least shouldn't be in the home environment and in a commercial environment you would need to weight out into small pots first to make use viable.

It is however about taste in the cup and versatility. Bear in mind have a Lido 3 bought for pour over / immersion brews and a Mythos for volume use, I still find I use the R120 95+% of the time as put stickers on the outer dial to go back and forth to (do this for other beans too, should I want to swap between beans)

Is it overkill in the home, absolutely but I suspect it would also be overkill in many a commercial environment as would other titan grinders especially when most paying customers have milk in their coffees.

Would I have another, in a heartbeat







What I would say though and this echo's what said above, try if you can to use one, taste the output with a bean you are familiar with as your taste buds will be the one writing the expensive cheque (unless of course you are running a deli or need to grind lots for others then go ahead)

John


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## chupulio (Feb 21, 2017)

Funny though that there is no R120 in the german Kaffee-Netz. Compak seems to lack a bit of distribution here

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## webdoc (Jan 22, 2019)

Fantastic grinder! I had the chance to try it while visiting a roastery a awhile ago and comparing it with a K30, it was impressive. Espresso delivered on another level, clear, mild, perfumed, i fell in love. The noise though...Jesus...unusable at home unless you live in a atomic shelter.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

No, live in a normal house with normal people in









No noisier than the Compak K10PB near it and massively shorter time wise for grind so can only assume was being used with the bag shaker in place and the lid open on the hopper. Take the bag shaker mech off ( silver shiny long bit hanging down front would have made a noise like a concrete mixer with a brick in, driven by a concentric device in the base also needing removal) and way, way quieter.

Still huge and imposing though, not for everyone. Glad you enjoyed your espresso, very transparent of how the bean roasted (both good and bad) and different in that respect to other titans such as the EK43 which address the bean in a different manner.

John


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## JackBlackmore (Nov 1, 2015)

I'll second what @johnealey said, it's actually really easy to live with! Without the bag shaker it's not too loud and I'm sure Frans disconnected the chute scraper on his to make it even quieter (not that I've felt the need to) Don't get me wrong, it is a beast and sounds like a jet engine when the burrs are spinning but it's quieter than my blender haha


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## LeverRetriever (Aug 3, 2021)

Great thread & enjoyable reading re the R120 for home use. I'm wondering if the single-dose hopper from the PK100 Lab might fit onto the R120?

As an aside, it seems that the PK100 hasn't received much love from home users, but seems to have all the attributes that others have found good in the R120...


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