# Farmers Markets



## RDC8

Hi All

Was hoping to tap into some experiences of those who sell their roasted coffee at farmers markets (or similar). Do you bring bags of pre-ground with you? If so - what assumptions do you make about the grind setting? Or do you grind to order? (assuming you have access to power) Or do you only sell whole-bean?

Or maybe you have purchased your coffee at a market and have some insights.

I am doing a few charity pop-up events over the next few weeks - providing coffee-to-go. But also have the opportunity to sell my beans. So I was thinking of taking whole-beans, in 250gm bags sealed in cheap food-grade plastic bags, along with my bag grinder (Mahlkonig Guatemala) and heat sealer. Then for those who want pre-ground I can grind to order, at the desired setting, into a valve bag and then heat-seal. That way I'm not left sitting with unsold pre-ground coffee. What do you think?


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## HDAV

Grind to order the way to go if you can manage the space, noise and power demands of the kit ( church hall probably, outdoor in field maybe not?) and additional workload perhaps a buy now collect later approach when its busy?


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## Drewster

That's a tricky one without hind site/experience (of your actual venues)...

What is the "overhead" of coping with grinding "on-demand" vs the "risk" of losing through wastage?

Presumably (as you are also selling drinks) you will have the grinder there already - so no overhead there (unless you were thinking a different grinder - so that you don't muck up your drink making settings by grinding a (single) bag of beans for filter!!) but the bags/sealing kit/space for them :-(
( at least - Loss of display space/carrying stock for the area required for sealing kit and space to use it).

How many bags of "ground" are you likely to sell....
If only one or two then almost certainly not worth the effort to cater for it (except in customer "disappointment"..... )
If dozens/more - Obviously more viable (but begs the question of having that many bags pre-ground and just selling them.

As long as the overhead to cope with it is minimal/low enough then I agree with HDAV - wider market...... but 20 minutes additional set up, issues with "work flow" and/or just no-sales..... quickly affects your bottom line....

As an example I used to do Wedding Fairs (for bespoke Hats & Fascinators etc).
So basically "nothing" to sell/recoup costs immediately....

But we found we could scatter various bits & bobs (jewellery, pre-made "simple" Hats etc) around the stall - at (almost) ZERO overhead.... So if we sold ANYTHING it was a plus (and if we didn't Meh! the stall looked better)

Obviously we didn't have any issues with "staleness" - but we did end up actually doing little bespoke bits (adding feathers etc) to the pre-made stuff on a "Yep pay us up front and come back later" basis - and that required glue-guns, cutting, sinamay, stock of feathers etc as well as 1/2 decent area to do the work)...

When we 1st went we didn't do anything bespoke on site - but the demand (and the willingness to pay) made it worth adapting our model...

Basically - Give it a go (with any of your options) and see how it works out and then adapt with iteration.....


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## BlackCatCoffee

We do a market and I take all whole bean and grind to order there. The compromise is the bags are then open but they do at least have a press seal so it isn't the end of the world. It would be impossible to judge the amount of ground coffee to take and I would end up with a load of waste after.


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## Stevebee

Grind to order here as the bags can be resealed. I take a Compak R120 as it gets through 25g per second.

Prefer it the EK43 I previously used. Not light though!


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## RDC8

Thanks all for your thoughts and experiences. I've decided to go down the track of taking along whole beans and grinding to order. First day is tomorrow - then again on Saturday. Funny you should mention being out in a field @HDAV - I'll be at a christmas tree farm! Outdoors - but in a marquee and with good access to power. I'll have the two grinders there @Drewster - one to grind coffee to order and the other dialled in for my espresso blend; as you say, it could be a bad idea to use the same grinder for both purposes! Working space is not an issue. I've done this event for the past three years doing the hot drinks - but this will be the first time selling the fresh coffee. I'll also have some flyers there with the website details. @Black Cat Coffee - are you taking your whole-beans already sealed in the valved retail packs? The problem of have an opened bag reliant on the press-seal is the reason I was thinking of taking them pre-weighed in a plain el-cheapo plastic bag and then sealing them into the retail bag once ground. Anyway - will have to see what the workflow is like. Hopefully there will be time to balance bean sales with drink making. At least someone else will be taking the orders and dealing with the payments!


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## HDAV

My comments are as a "buyer" not as a "vendor" when It comes to coffee at least I have bought beans at similar events both for me and for presents


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## RDC8

Drewster said:


> Basically - Give it a go (with any of your options) and see how it works out and then adapt with iteration...


 This sounds like pretty sound advice for making it through this thing we call life


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## Stevebee

I now take 2 machines, 2 grinders plus a hot water urn for teas / Americanos. 1 on each machine plus 1 doing sales / payments / bag grinding which seems to work well. Good luck


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## RDC8

Market went absolutely crazy busy over the weekend. To elaborate a bit further - this pop-up was at an outdoor Christmas Tree market. First day open was on Thursday - so this was the first full weekend. The market opened at 9am on the Saturday and by that time there was a queue of cars a mile and a half long waiting for the gates to open. It started with a bang and didn't let up for the next 8 hours. This was the 3rd Christmas I have been there and this year was absolutely nuts! Doing the drinks kept me busy almost the whole time; managed to sell two bags of beans during the market and one as a follow-up online sale. Had a lot of good conversations with locals who seemed to be "into" their coffee and seemed genuinely interested in trying a local roaster (ie me!). Plenty of my business cards went flying out so time will tell if they bear fruit. Thanks for all the comments and good advice.

One additional question if anyone has some insights ... how do you keep your milk (frothing) jug clean? Do you have a pitcher-rinser connected up? More than one jug? Or just keep washing it out when you have a "quiet" moment?


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## tsouthwell

RDC8 said:


> Market went absolutely crazy busy over the weekend. To elaborate a bit further - this pop-up was at an outdoor Christmas Tree market. First day open was on Thursday - so this was the first full weekend. The market opened at 9am on the Saturday and by that time there was a queue of cars a mile and a half long waiting for the gates to open. It started with a bang and didn't let up for the next 8 hours. This was the 3rd Christmas I have been there and this year was absolutely nuts! Doing the drinks kept me busy almost the whole time; managed to sell two bags of beans during the market and one as a follow-up online sale. Had a lot of good conversations with locals who seemed to be "into" their coffee and seemed genuinely interested in trying a local roaster (ie me!). Plenty of my business cards went flying out so time will tell if they bear fruit. Thanks for all the comments and good advice.
> 
> One additional question if anyone has some insights ... how do you keep your milk (frothing) jug clean? Do you have a pitcher-rinser connected up? More than one jug? Or just keep washing it out when you have a "quiet" moment?


 Which market were you at? I live pretty close to Egham so might check it out. And could I have a link to your website or something? I'd also like to try a local roaster

Thanks


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## BlackCatCoffee

Glad it went well for you. I tend to go equipped to these markets with around 5-6 jugs and keep non dairy, hot chocolate and non dairy hot chocolate all marked and separate. The EHO are hot on these things. I have a buddy that washes and rotates things for me and does little bits like adds water to cups for americanos, keeps all the bits and bobs topped up.

It of course depends how busy the market it as to how you work it. I have done ones where I literally did not move away from the machine for 6+ hours and had a queue of 6-8 drinks the whole time. It would not be possible to do that without someone supporting you and doing the odd jobs. I sleep well after those events I can tell you.


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## RDC8

The pop-up is for the PTA at my wife's school (they're selling mince pies/cup-cakes/cookies etc) and it's one of their big fund raisers. I get a bit of help with bits and pieces but they were stretched as well. A bit different from previous too in the whole covid-secure way of operating. I guess everyone was a little under-prepared for the sheer volume of sales!

I will plan on having a few more jugs there next week so that they can be washed out on rotation.

Know what you mean about the sleep - 9 3/4 hours for me on Saturday night!


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## RDC8

tsouthwell said:


> Which market were you at? I live pretty close to Egham so might check it out. And could I have a link to your website or something? I'd also like to try a local roaster
> 
> Thanks


 Hi @tsouthwell. The Christmas tree market is in a corner of the Windsor Great Park - entrance is well sign-posted off the A332 between Windsor and Ascot. I'll be there again this weekend.


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## HomeRoastery

A fascinating tread. Please keep coming back and post some more; i'm very curious about selling coffee beans at a local market. Selling hot drinks sounds like a challenge and a half, and i'm not equipped to handle the workflow and don't think i'll be anytime soon. All very interesting, nevertheless!


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## Dartmoor Coffee

I've booked up, covid allowing, 6 markets this year. Certainly a lot to think about. @RDC8 did you take whole beans and grind onsite? I've asked the person in charge about noise. My hope is to get a lot of pre-printed empty labels where I just write on the information as sold. Grind on site direct into bag and seal. Hoping to also take some brewing equipment like V60, AeroPress to sell. How did you find it? Did you take your commercial scales?

Just looking at the required insurance you need to get as well. All adds up.

What did people do about marketing? Did you print banners for the front of the table or just have basic advertising?

Question did you all sell drinks - someone suggested that this wasn't possible without additional health checks? I was thinking about not selling capo's, latte ,etc., but brewing in a V60, Chemex, etc. so that customers can taste the flavour of the coffee? Have asked our local EHO.

Thanks - got 6 weeks and best if I roast the weekend before.


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## RDC8

@Dartmoor Coffee

I have so far completed two markets; each quite different so will give an overview of each market. Market A was a "typical" producers market in the local town. No power supply; Market B (referred to in the thread above) was to support a school fund-raising activity selling refreshments in a large Christmas Tree market. Power was supplied



Dartmoor Coffee said:


> did you take whole beans and grind onsite?


 *Market A*: I took a range of 250gm bags for the pre-ground. Grind setting as suitable for cafetiere. I also took whole beans weighed (250gm) and sealed in plastic bags. These were inexpensive food-grade clear plastic bags that I buy 100 at a time. When a customer wanted whole bean I popped the entire plastic bag, unopened, into a paper bag.

*Market B:*I took only whole beans weighed (250gm) and sealed in plastic bags (as above). I was able to grind onsite and then re-seal into "proper" valved bags. A grinder isn't that noisy!



Dartmoor Coffee said:


> lot of pre-printed empty labels where I just write on the information as sold


 *Market A*: All bags were pre-labeled for the ground coffee. However, for whole bean I applied labels to the paper bags as needed when sold.

*Market B*: only took pre-printed labels and wrote details on them as and when needed.



Dartmoor Coffee said:


> did you all sell drinks


 *Market A*: didn't sell drinks, but gave away samples an small 3oz cups (pre-covid!!). I brewed coffee onsite using cafetiere. Brought-in the water in 2x5l airpots and then decanted the brewed coffee into 2l vacuum jugs.

*Market B*; At this market the primary purpose was to sell drinks; no extra health checks asked for (but good basic hygiene practices being followed). Your market organisers may need to see that you have completed a food hygiene course.

Hopefully you will have help on the stall; it is almost impossible to brew drinks, engage with customers, handle the money exchange etc just by yourself. Without the drinks side, one person should be able to manage.



Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Did you print banners for the front of the table or just have basic advertising?


 Just some basic advertising on the table at both markets. However, I plan on getting a vinyl banner for future markets to hang across the gazebo to make the stand more visible. Some traders at Market A used the roll-up banners and struggled with them when the wind came up.



Dartmoor Coffee said:


> best if I roast the weekend before.


 Yes - that is what I did. Although you will probably end up needing to explain that the coffee is still fresh and may even need a further 5 days to rest before using!



Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Have asked our local EHO


 This is sensible


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8, Many thanks for your thoughts and detailed explanation. Very kind of you.

Thankfully all my markets are inside so no wind problems. I'm looking at getting a sumup card payment (wifi only) - not sure 3G is worth it. All markets will have electric, wifi and stand.

Think I will pre-roast a week before and take down whole beans. I am planning at getting basic labels produced by a professional company and then write on the coffee, weight and other bits as orders come in. If I am going to sell drinks then will have to consider also pre-grinding some beans for making drinks, and also buy in recyclable cups.

May I ask about quantities of coffee you took. I was thinking of taken some roasted coffee of all my beans (5 types), but don't know how much of each I should take - 2 / 3kg so giving a total of 10 to 15 kgs? Might have a lot left over? Guess if I do 3 roasts of each coffee so giving about 2.2 to 2.4 kg of each.

Will look into banners.

Thanks

Phil.


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## Stevebee

Pre grinding beans for hot coffee - why?


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## Jony

Sacrilege.


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## RDC8

@Dartmoor Coffee

I guess if you take whole beans and grind to order then your financial risk from un-sold product is minimised. If you have unsold pre-ground coffee then it's pretty much wasted.

In both markets I only took three different coffees; two single origins (quite different in flavour profiles) and a blend. The first was a relatively small market; so I had 25x 250gm bags in total and sold 23. Was quite happy! (however, there was no market fee as it was a local council initiative, so no real overheads!)

Also had some small promotional fliers directing people to my website for the full range of coffee. The conversations are important, even if there is no direct/immediate sale. I also used two discount codes on the flyer - one for offering no delivery charge if they picked up at the next market, and one code with a 15% discount. The pick-up code never got used as subsequent markets were cancelled thanks to covid!! But the 15% off has been used a number of times by different people; helps to gauge how/where you are building a profile.

If you will be grinding to order, then you might want to reconsider using pre-ground for making drinks; At the first market I had no access to electricity so had no choice but to bring pre-ground; I was making up samples in a cafetiere (as in the earlier post above).

Hope this is helpful


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## Dartmoor Coffee

@Stevebee @Jony - Ha. Only thinking pre-grinding for selling drinks. I don't have a single dose grinder and from my experience grinding 30g at a time into a container you get static issues and in time coffee gets everywhere.

@RDC8 Selling 23 250g bags seems like a great return. Sold just under 6kg.

Thanks for your thoughts.


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## Stevebee

@RDC8 You could use a leisure battery and sine wave inverter to run the grinder if no electricity. These can even run a Compak R120. @Dartmoor Coffee are you talking about making espressos or batch / pour over.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

@Stevebee - I'm just looking at pour overs. Nothing complicated, but something to show the flavours in the coffee.


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## Stevebee

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> @Stevebee - I'm just looking at pour overs. Nothing complicated, but something to show the flavours in the coffee.


 Makes sense. Tried V60 for a few weeks but with only 2 of us took too long compared to espresso based drinks.

If it gets a bit quieter post lockdown may bring it back. Not huge demand though or for batch brew. Seems in the US batch brew has a larger following.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

@Stevebee For espresso based drinks what do you use especially if you want speed? Do you do farmers markets? Problem is a V60 does takes 3/4 ,ins for 3 cups.

Know people use Moccamaster so perhaps I can fill up at the beginning.


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## CJV8

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Know people use Moccamaster so perhaps I can fill up at the beginning.


 That's our plan. Other than a bit of intervention at the start of the brew it manages itself for the most part so we can speak to customers more and brew less. And with the thermal flask it does keep the coffee at a decent temperature for 20 to 30mins, indoors at least.


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## Stevebee

Any espresso is going to be faster than V60 - quite often you'd just get a single order not 3 - 4 cups. I initially used an L1 with a Vesuvius but the Decent replaced the Londinium. This week got another Decent on the forum so 3 on the go now. They are dialled in using a lever profile which means that all use the same grind so only need one grinder, a Mythos One CP ( plus a Niche for Decaf). R120 is the bag grinder and a hot water urn for Americanos/Teas

Moccamaster a good call though. It makes a good brew. Like all thermos though I find if it hangs around too long the taste is affected.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @CJV8, Which one did you go for in the end? How many cups does it hold? Is it just a fancy filter coffee maker? Are they worth the money since looking at new and they are expensive compared to other filter makers. What do they do so differently that makes them a worthwhile investments.

Thanks

Phil.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @Stevebee, Just looking at the Decent Espresso DE1Pro - if I am looking at the right one a tad expensive. I think there would be no chance getting that through the wife . In some ways is it easier to just use my AeroPress. Just need to rinse after each use?


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## CJV8

Dartmoor Coffee said:


> Hi @CJV8, Which one did you go for in the end? How many cups does it hold? Is it just a fancy filter coffee maker? Are they worth the money since looking at new and they are expensive compared to other filter makers. What do they do so differently that makes them a worthwhile investments.


 It's the KBGT we have, just the standard Moccamster but with the thermal carafe.

It can brew up to 1.2 litres (or 10 cups as they claim), however as our intention is to serve small samples only we'll be brewing a lot less than that so the coffee remains fresher. We got a second carafe to help with that.

It's effectively a simple automated filter brewer. It's not at all clever or programmable, it just brews filter coffee repeatedly, at least in my experience. I was very skeptical when we got it but have come to love it, and use it a few times a week over my V60.

As for what they do differently, I think that's really just the temperature consistency during brewing. Shop around a bit, we got our brewer and the second carafe for just over £200, and a few boxes of filters for another tenner. From what I've read they're good and reliable too which is always a plus.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

HI @RDC8 and @CJV8, Thanks. Right I have a Moccamaster to make drinks with. Seems to work well. Planning to roast this Tuesday / Wednesday ready for the market 24th April. Gives a good 10 days so coffee is at the prime. Still not fully sure about quantity to roast. Might do 3 or 4 coffee and just over 2kgs of each.

For drinks may I enquire what you did about milk / sugar. Did you purchase a load of sugar sachets:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Silverspoon-Sugar-Sachets/273059409020?hash=item3f939bec7c:g:ZmYAAOSwKNhaoS0x&var=572307822025

and milk portions:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Milk-Portions-All-Optional-Varieties-Millac-Lakeland-Soya-Lakeland-Sticks/283058509902?hash=item41e79a184e:g:RQUAAOSwq4RdgPUM

Think this is the safest way of providing milk without needing a fridge unit.

With that will get takeaway cups, lids and wooden sticks.

Thanks

Phil.


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## DavecUK

@Dartmoor Coffee Amazon seemed to have some better deals?

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lakeland-Semi-Skimmed-Milk-Pots-Pack/dp/B000I6NQOS/ref=pd_day0_7?pd_rd_w=dpyZB&pf_rd_p=8ec13b8a-30d2-48fc-8503-84c56766370d&pf_rd_r=CCTRRJ0YTG61YCKTHQ9A&pd_rd_r=4d8951e1-7662-429f-826a-64d14d238a40&pd_rd_wg=6X5Su&pd_rd_i=B000I6NQOS&psc=1

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverspoon-White-Sugar-Stick-Sachets/dp/B01DW9S9KI/ref=pd_sim_1?pd_rd_w=K2pMm&pf_rd_p=a7bedb39-cbbd-45c9-852d-706df6f424c8&pf_rd_r=FH61FPVMJ68PF9MNTD48&pd_rd_r=67c6cbcc-4381-4726-ad93-faad7544e245&pd_rd_wg=yoTjk&pd_rd_i=B01DW9S9KI&psc=1

or milk in a stick

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lakeland-Milk-Stick-Semi-Skimmed-10ml/dp/B07572VNFP/ref=bmx_2?pd_rd_w=ldrkQ&pf_rd_p=6398e171-4f42-4318-a493-6aac0e34c3e5&pf_rd_r=3NBWH33E0JHWSFWX57T0&pd_rd_r=d922af74-98d2-4cf3-ad33-3de53d4cf44a&pd_rd_wg=ZqC3F&pd_rd_i=B07572VNFP&psc=1


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## Stevebee

Use a cool bag with ice blocks for the milk served in a thermos jug. Not sure customers will appreciate those plastic pots and you can get the milk you prefer.

Oatly Barista, long life version, will be popular - almost a third of our milk is Oat now


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Thanks - my wife did suggest get a cooler box with those blocks and keep milk in it to keep cool. Not heard of Oatly Barista, but am popping to Asda later so will see what they've got.

Thanks Dave will take a look at amazon for sugar sticks.


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## RDC8

It's a bit of a conundrum with offering the "extras" in a covid-secure way which is also environmentally friendly and financially reasonable. Have your market organisers provided much guidance?

Pre-covid, my sugar was in a glass "kilner" jar and customers helped themselves (teaspoon in jar, wooden stirrers to be used once) and a jug of milk (vacuum pot) also on a help-yourself basis.

At the Christmas market, where there were many helpers, we were putting the milk and sugar into the drinks as requested and not letting the customers touch the milk/sugar in order to minimise contact.

From an environmental impact viewpoint, single-serve (single use) anything should be avoided as much as possible. Having the milk in a cool box makes good sense; keep a thermometer in there just to check the temperature periodically (this should be one of your food safety procedures). Milk served from a thermos, rather than single serve milk pots, is a great idea - but only if you are the only one touching it. Having said that, I see that Oatly is available in the small pots. IMHO this is the one of the better alternatives to milk and there will always be a few customers who for ethical or dietary reasons won't want cows milk. Buying it in the small pots might be a way to minimise overall waste as you won't need to discard any open but unused product (different story if its something you would drink yourself).

Hope this makes sense.


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## DavecUK

I agree about the environment, but it's also about survival "post" covid. I believe a lot of people are still scared and single portion pots just seem like the right way to go at the moment.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Thanks - both fair comments. I will speak to the event organizers and see if they have an opinion.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Thanks for your thoughts everyone. Spoke to my local environmental health and organiser and there is a local fridge I could use. Also I could keep milk in a cooler box as long as kept below 8c, which I would need to check regularly.

@Stevebee Thanks about Oatly Barista - didn't see it in Asda , but the wife today picked up some Minor Figures oak meal - is this the same one that you were thinking about? Quite interesting this must be quite new to the market since I had an email from Brewed By Hand about Minor Figures, which they are now stocking.

Need to do Risk Assessment before I go, but think in the end we will make the coffee, add milk and sugar ourselves. This means customers don't need to touch anything apart from their own cup. Also means we don't need to buy sugar sachets. Seems best idea in today's situation.


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## Richard the First

RDC8 said:


> Hi All
> 
> Was hoping to tap into some experiences of those who sell their roasted coffee at farmers markets (or similar). Do you bring bags of pre-ground with you? If so - what assumptions do you make about the grind setting? Or do you grind to order? (assuming you have access to power) Or do you only sell whole-bean?
> 
> Or maybe you have purchased your coffee at a market and have some insights.
> 
> I am doing a few charity pop-up events over the next few weeks - providing coffee-to-go. But also have the opportunity to sell my beans. So I was thinking of taking whole-beans, in 250gm bags sealed in cheap food-grade plastic bags, along with my bag grinder (Mahlkonig Guatemala) and heat sealer. Then for those who want pre-ground I can grind to order, at the desired setting, into a valve bag and then heat-seal. That way I'm not left sitting with unsold pre-ground coffee. What do you think?





HDAV said:


> Grind to order the way to go if you can manage the space, noise and power demands of the kit ( church hall probably, outdoor in field maybe not?) and additional workload perhaps a buy now collect later approach when its busy?


 I am selling coffee beans at the Reading farmers market, it is going well and people walk up for coffee drinks, however I have noticed how people are asking for Aeropress coffee maker and its different ways to prepare it. Although I have posted some blog, still I continue having some questions how to provide a good experience to coffee lovers in these markets (related to filter or pressed ways). Any idea? Thanks...


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## RDC8

@Dartmoor Coffee - Hiya Phil, How did that first farmers market work out for you? Hope it was a great success.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

@Richard the First - Not fully sure what you are asking. Are you talking just at farmers markets or enjoying the AeroPress in everyday live?

@RDC8. Hi Rodney, Mixed if honest. I was told at the end that the footfall was a lot less than normal. Lots of people were just looking and not buying. That saying I also didn't get time (or money) to get proper advertising so I think people were confused what I was selling. So between 10-3 I only had 6 customers who bought coffee beans bags and 3 of them were friends who needed a refill and visited me on the day. Also sold some coffee to an elderly couple from London who were down here on hols. If that was it would have been a very quiet day. What helped ticking over the day was selling coffee. I sold for £1 for an 8oz cup. For this I had my moccamaster and it was brilliant. Brewing 1l / 60g of coffee at a time and have 4 different coffees on the go. Didn't bring in as much as the coffee beans, but certainly helped keep the day ticking over. Also hoping I get a few more orders through it since a few people took the business cards. Even one of the vendors whose husband forgot to bring coffee bought 5 cups during the day and said she'd buy some online. The general feedback was that the coffee tasted good via the moccamaster. My thoughts for the next event:

1. Don't bring down 4 coffees. Think 3 max (even 2). The best selling coffee was the Ethiopian "organic wushwush", simply because it was organic. People are interested in environmentla bagging and having the idea of drinking organic coffee. That's why I got 2 samples from Falcon since I would like to replace the Wushwush when it runs out. The second one was the Brazilian since it was the strongest one I had.

2. Don't take too much stock. I bought down lots of brewing equipment, which none sold. Only for Christmas gift sets.

3. Pre-ground coffee for the moccamaster instead of grinding 60g when needed. I am planning to grind 300g in the morning to save time, noise and make things less stressful.

4. Get my advertising sorted out.

Hope that helps.

Phil.


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## RDC8

@Dartmoor Coffee - thanks for sharing the experience. The first one is always a bit hairy - but it sounds like you did make a good impression on those who tried your coffee on the day.

Hopefully you will get some follow-on orders from those who took away your cards. Did you offer a unique discount? I found that was a good measure of impact as I could track the usage of the code(s) directly back to the market.

It's good that you have a few things to try differently next time. Were you just using the one Moccamaster to manage the 4 different coffees? What did you do with each coffee once it was brewed?

Hope the next market is busier for you and that the overall footfall picks up.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

@RDC8 Hi Rodney, No offers. Didn't think about that - perhaps I should have. Had so much going on and organising. Hopefully next time it will be easier since items bought so less to do. Yes maybe a FoodFair10 coupon for online buying.

Yes just using the 1 Moccamaster. Bought 4 of these https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/122701375546, but disappointed with them since seemed to quickly loose their heat. Will do some more testing I think. The blurb says 6 hours for most heat, but coffee coming out lukewarm way too quickly.

Next market is June, but not sure I can do. Do you handle markets by yourself? Seems a lot to do if just 1.

How many do you do a year? Seems you need to do quite a few to make it financial viable when you have a lot of costs.


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## RDC8

Well, looks like our local council has finally given the green light for outdoor markets to resume so I'm provisionally booked in for a market on 22 May. So much to do and so little time!

This time I'll be by myself so everything needs to run like a well oiled machine. No onsite power unfortunately so I will need to take some pre-ground retail bags with me. @Dartmoor Coffee - I have two vacuum jugs like yours so am hoping they will hold the heat. Did you pre-warm them (with boiling water) before adding the coffee? I imagine if they were cold to begin with then they would tend to suck heat out of the coffee until the lining had warmed up. I can currently take 8l of hot water in two air-pots to make up samples in a french press.

For me, most of the costs are fixed; gazebo, weights, signage, tables, etc so I wouldn't expect the first market to cover all of the fixed/set-up costs. My next market stall will cost £40 so I need to sell around 3kg (12 bags) in order to cover the direct variable costs (green coffee + bag/label cost) and the stall rental. After that it all goes towards those set-up cost.

(Let's not factor in my time as a cost - that would be too depressing! Less than minimum wage I would think!!)


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8, No I didn't pre-heat the flasks. Maybe that would have helped? Guess if you pre-heat the flasks you need to somehow get rid off the hot water before adding the coffee. Be interesting to see if that makes a difference.

I don't envy you doing a market still without electrics. Something that I would find essential. Although my next market if I go for it is in mid-June and that will be by myself. Not looking forward to that, but unfortunately wife has a pre-engagement.

A wage? What's that 😃.


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## Stevebee

A leisure battery with inverter will run a grinder comfortably. I used to use a 1000w (2000w peak) but doubled it to 2000w (4000 peak). This ran a Compak R120 so will cope with any grinder.


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## RDC8

@Stevebee I am starting to think I might need to go down this route. My grinder is a Mahlkonig Guatemala; it appear to pull about 600w max at start-up and then settles at around 160-200 watts once under way. So i'm thinking a 1000w inverter like this: https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/SK652104.html?source=adwords&ad_position=&ad_id=315107931576&placement=&kw=&network=u&matchtype=&ad_type=&product_id=SK652104&product_partition_id=987624279487&campaign=shopping&version=finalurl_v3&gclid=CjwKCAjwhMmEBhBwEiwAXwFoEXJ1ffRfmsAAjYNJwffnXqYUgHSvAeduiNY0EPRArGrwaXjGGbsy7RoC9hMQAvD_BwE

and a leisure battery like this: https://www.halfords.com/motoring/batteries/leisure-batteries/halfords-leisure-battery-hlb700-682063.html

Would be sufficient?

I could also hook up the bag sealer which draws around 40w


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## Stevebee

I think the issue with the grinder is the start up charge. Previously, I used a Mazzer Royal, 900W, with a 1000/2000W inverter and it worked fine. I think the initial surge is double what the rated is but not sure. That's why, when I used it for the R120 I over specced. The grind time is minimal as its only when you grind for bags so the battery should last. I have access to power now as I sell hot coffee as well so haven't used that set up for a while. Don't pre grind as everyone wants different grind sizes although cafetiere will be by far the most popular.


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## RDC8

After some further research I think I'm closer to getting this set up in time for the market.

There seems to be a wide range of "generic" chinese branded inverters on ebay; just wondered if anyone reading this has had any particular quality issues with their inverter. (although I suspect the bulk of the global supply is manufactured in China and then branded accordingly!)

Then there is the question of the battery specs. Is there a quick way to find out how long a given battery will last given an estimated power draw? I was also thinking of adding a brewer - such as a Moccamaster (element rated at 1,250w but wouldn't be working continuously). Crazy idea??


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## DavecUK

RDC8 said:


> Then there is the question of the battery specs. Is there a quick way to find out how long a given battery will last given an estimated power draw? I was also thinking of adding a brewer - such as a Moccamaster (element rated at 1,250w but wouldn't be working continuously). Crazy idea??


 Some things to consider especially depending on whether the inverter is cheap or expensive:



Inverters can use 20-25W when not running any load, unless that can sleep until required


They are not 100% efficient the best might be 95% others 80%


For a seemingly insignificant output the amperage draw on the battery can be very large


Deep Cycle Leisure batteries really shouldn't be discharged below 50% if you want a decent life out of them (e.g. 200 charge cycles). Many inverters will suck em way below that and your battery might last less than a year


Some inverters will trip out way before you expect them to, or overheat


Square wave inverters can be are less efficient with inductive loads and make motors run rough and hot.


https://www.halfords.com/motoring/batteries/leisure-batteries/yuasa-active-leisure-battery-l26-agm-466918.html

read the spec above...total moonshine, mathematically almost correct, but not right. The two statements about charge cycles and capacity are mutually exclusive. Firstly you will be lucky to suck all 90 amps out of it..most inverters will cut out long before then due to the voltage drop on the battery under load at a low state of discharge. If you could get almost 90amps out of it...which you won't..your battery could be dead in weeks.



If a deep cycle leisure battery has a capacity of 100 amps...then the theoretical maximum is 100X12V = 1200W

as you should only discharge to 50%, this becomes 600W


if you add up to 20% efficiency losses this becomes 480W


so you can run a continuous 500W load for about 1 hour.


if you want to pull it down to 60-65%, then you half its life from 200 recharge cycles to under 100, pullin it down further than this gives it a very uncertain life.



This makes the leisure battery you linked to look positively terrible for the application.














500W capacity on a grinder might be 200W per grind cycle of 10 seconds per double shot..or *900 18g grinds to use 200W*. You can mostly discount the startup load as it's very brief (but of course the inverter must be sized to handle it). *So probably will get 800 grind cycles out of it.*

If you add a moccamaster...to draw 1250W when it's heating would pull 108 amps (I've added 4 amps for inverter inefficiencies) from a 12V battery* (that's a LOT!)*...If you happened to grind whilst this was happening, that's another 20 amps.....on top. These loads may be transient, but the leisure battery won't appreciate having that sort of current pulled, especially as the charge state gets low (and the inverter may just cut out for low voltage.

200 Ah non AGM leisure battery will be around £200 and £300 for an AGM version

The other way to go if you wanted to run a moccamaster, would be to use 2 leisure batteries and a 24V pure sine wave inverter....this would greatly reduce the amperage loading on the batteries, fewer losses and allow the use of 2 cheaper leisure batteries.

P.S. If a battery fails, in many cases you can hook up the remaining battery and use the inverter in 12V mode (depending on inverter).


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## RDC8

Thanks for this very comprehensive explanation @DavecUK. Lots to take in and certainly food for thought.

At this stage I think I will drop the idea of trying to use a moccamaster and just take hot water in airpots to make up french press. This will be mainly for tasting samples. If the water cools too much before the market finishes then so be it.


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## DavecUK

You could get a Gas Burco 20 litre....run off a smallish propane cylinder (say a 15kg perhaps)

https://www.ceonline.co.uk/burco-manual-fill-gas-water-boiler-20ltr-mfgs20ss.html?gclid=CjwKCAjw7diEBhB-EiwAskVi16Z4KCZusRCfz7dBYxI7SrkLRETm7pAHdsAU_TfuYcQX609RZSHadRoC-1UQAvD_BwE


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Just a practical note apart from having to cart all this around elsewhere - how often are you going to need to use this? You are going to have to do lots of markets (where power is not available) and sell lots of coffee to make it viable and cost effective.

I'm no expert on this subject, but would it be best to hire such equipment or maybe hire a petrol generator for the day?


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## RDC8

I had thought about getting a generator (hire or purchase); but I've seen a few markets where stand-alone generators are prohibited, or they can only be petrol, or they can only be diesel, or no refilling permitted, or ...

I guess what I'm looking at is being able to attend as wide a range of markets/fairs etc as possible, regardless of the constraints/restrictions imposed.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8 - have you still got your farmer's market this Saturday? Hope it goes well. Did you sort out the electrics in the end?

Phil.


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## RDC8

It's certainly all go for this weekend @Dartmoor Coffee! New sign boards. New advertising banner. 9kg of coffee roasted, bagged and ready to go (3 single origins and a blend) and yes - the electrics are sorted. I splashed out on a 120amp leisure battery and a 1000watt inverter; just for grinding - no Moccamaster. Weather is looking a bit dodgy for Saturday so hoping the outlook improves between now and then.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Weather certainly dodgy down here. Raining cats and dogs with a yellow wind weather warning. Hope it goes well.


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Hi @RDC8, Hope it went well on Saturday.

Phil.


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## RDC8

Market was a fantastic success on the day (except when my card reader decided to do a software update and was unavailable for half an hour!!). Sold 26 bags (250gm) and countless cups of "coffee to go". Weather stayed dry for most of the day and the wind died right down.

However, the electric setup for the grinder didn't work - I think I have bought an underpowered inverter (luckily I tested everything during the week before!) -so ended up on making a judgement call as to the ratio of pre-ground to whole bean to take. Was left with bags of ground but ran out of whole bean and could have sold more.

Most people wanted "strong" coffee, which to them meant darker rather than lighter roasts. So i was left with a lot of my lighter Ethiopian unsold.

My next investment will be in a gas-powered urn as I also ran out of hot water on the day.

A good day - but utterly exhausted by the end; crawled into bed before 9 and slept for 10 hours straight!

All my business cards went so will see if any extra sales filter through over the next little while


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## Dartmoor Coffee

Excellent news.

Yes I found that out that people want strong coffee. Think they are so used to shop bought, which always seem over-roasted and strong. I've found it is only people who know about the flavours and experience prefer lighter roasts.

So your "coffee to go" - was that £1 a cup or something different?


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