# Fracino Cherub, stone cold



## Wombat

Hi all,

I'm currently in a bit of a state over the £500 used Cherub that's just arrived today - after having it turned on for an hour it's still stone cold.

The pump is working fine, though no movement in the pressure gauge and any water pumped through the group is also cold.

To say I stretched my budget to buy this would be an understatement. Repairs were certainly not accommodated for!

On a scale of 1-10 how screwed am I? Is this something that'll be quite straightforward to fix or is it an engineer job?

Thanks for any suggestions,

Will


----------



## Eyedee

Where did you buy it from, can you return it, did you pay with a card, paypal, might be able to claim on that.

Ian


----------



## NickdeBug

where did you buy it?

Can't comment on the engineering, but...

If ebay then any faults should have been declared and you should be protected. If no one comes up with a simple fix you should contact the seller, and if that doesn't work raise a claim through Paypal.


----------



## Russ

Guessing you've seen the post about a cherub not heating in the Fracino forum?

If it was an eBay purchase was it advertised as working?


----------



## Wombat

Hi Russ, I haven't seen that post on the Fracino forum, no. Do you have a link?

It wasn't an eBay purchase - it was actually bought through the forums with a cash transfer.

I'm guessing this isn't an issue that's easily fixed?


----------



## froggystyle

Its the one you purchased on here?

Have you pm'd the seller?


----------



## Wombat

Aye I've PMed the seller. I'm guessing they weren't aware of the issue prior to shipping, and given that they were sending pictures of coffees they'd made with the machine I'm still operating in good faith that the issue was unknown and may have occurred during shipping or in preparation for shipping.

The seller said that they'd done all they could to empty the machine of water, and I've read elsewhere that leaving the steam wand open for too long empties the boiler and burns out the heating element.

I'm just preparing for worst case scenario, as if someone said it was easily fixed and something had tripped or something then it would be a non-issue and I could get on with enjoying the machine.


----------



## Russ

Ahh I wondered if you bought it....I saw the post.

hqttp://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?21841-Cherub-not-heating

Hope this is some help. http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?21841-Cherub-not-heating sure I've also read that if the TDS of the water is too low the machine dosnt' recognise its got water in it. I may be completely wrong about that and misremembered it and would be surprised if that was the case but worth bearing in mind?

Russ


----------



## Wombat

Thanks Russ - that chap isn't the one I bought it from. Just confirmed with the seller that this is a new issue, though there was no damage to the box when it arrived from the courier.

The other thread mentions a thermostatic safety switch but I can't see anything of the sort inside - anybody know what it looks like?


----------



## funinacup

Got a little red button on the end. It is between the two terminals on the element. Press it and turn the machine on - does it heat? You should hear the element kick in (sounds like a kettle heating) within 10-15 seconds...

Did the boiler fill when you first turned it on? If you hit the brew switch do you get water out of the group?


----------



## Wombat

Well, I think I've gotten to the bottom of the issue.

On removing the casing I found it to be quite badly deformed on one of the corners, and the internal electric thingy that was on a bracket had dropped down with such force that the metal bracket holding it in a vertical position had bent to 45 degrees. It seems pretty obvious that the courier has dropped the machine (Interlink, for those thinking to use them in future).

Now begins the apparently long process of claiming from them... I wonder how much a refurb from drop damage will be at Fracino...


----------



## NickdeBug

Some couriers are just ridiculous.

I ordered a quite expensive driver graphite shaft the other day. I was sitting at home when I heard a load of noise at the front door. The idiot driver was trying to force it through the letter box rather than knock on the door, damaging it badly in the process. Then told me that it had been like that before.

i know that they are under pressure to get all the deliveries done, but a bit of common sense would avoid about 90% of the problems.

hope that they sort you out okay.


----------



## Wombat

Me too! I suspect I'll have a battle on my hands with them, based on some negative reviews I've since read, but I'm open to being pleasantly surprised!


----------



## 4085

Ask the person you bought it from for the photos he took of it in box, before it was collected. You will need those plus an estimate for the cost of the work. Best take some pics and ring Fracino up. I am guessing that the damage will outweigh the cost of the refund. Who organised the courier? If it was the seller it is his responsibility to claim not you.


----------



## jeebsy

NickdeBug said:


> Some couriers are just ridiculous.
> 
> I ordered a quite expensive driver graphite shaft the other day. I was sitting at home when I heard a load of noise at the front door. The idiot driver was trying to force it through the letter box rather than knock on the door, damaging it badly in the process. Then told me that it had been like that before.
> 
> i know that they are under pressure to get all the deliveries done, but a bit of common sense would avoid about 90% of the problems.
> 
> hope that they sort you out okay.


What do you play off?


----------



## Wombat

It was me who organised the courier so I'll be arranging the claim. Ringing Fracino is a good idea though. Feeling very powerless sitting here waiting for a response so would be nice to do something!

Hope you're wrong about repair cost though!


----------



## 4085

Wombat, I have had a few claims over the years (all successful). They will ask you for photos of the item showing the packaging. If it was in the original box, make sure you stress this and say it had the 4 corner grey cushion things they come in. You need the seller to send you some good quality photos. you need to send on to Fracino, claiming for all the parts. it is highly unlikely that they will send anyone out to inspect.

How much was it insured for? You do not have to tell me but if it was £500 then if the cost of repairs including couriers is about 2/3 rds, it is history.


----------



## Wombat

It was insured for the full £500, though I figured if I claim successfully I can either pay for repairs and have the silver lining of a full refurb unit for the price I've paid, or keep the £500 and wait for another opportunity and can the machine or sell it for parts. Though the latter is probably not viable as there could be untold damage to the internals. Hey at least the LEDs work!


----------



## 4085

It may not be as bad as you think. Anyone who knows how to work a multimeter may sort it out. Send Fracino the pics, see what the cost of the part is but it is the damage to the case and chassis that will be most costly. If you get your £500, plus the cost of the shipping you are not that far away from a new one.....good luck!


----------



## CallumT

Just claim the £500 from the couriers and try to resolve the repair as a individual, its all so easy to blame the couriers though.

Its a mighty fine co-incidence that the heating element packs up after transit...

Heating elements are a pain though, they are really delicate I've had ones look visually fine after a descale and the power just overloads and is fired back into the earth as they'll be some tiny issue allowing the short circuit. From what you have explained this is not the case though.


----------



## froggystyle

jeebsy said:


> What do you play off?


Grass?


----------



## Wombat

CallumT said:


> Just claim the £500 from the couriers and try to resolve the repair as a individual, its all so easy to blame the couriers though.
> 
> Its a mighty fine co-incidence that the heating element packs up after transit...


I'm quite confident at this point that the courier is to blame - in the attached picture the control unit can be seen to have been jarred from 90 degrees to 45 degrees, bending the metal bracket on which it is held.










This, along with the casing damage, is consistent with a drop in my view.

The seller is from this forum and has been in non-stop contact with me since I made him aware of the issue. In fact he even put in a little care sheet with tips on it! I'd say that's a bit elaborate for someone who knew they were selling a dud, so I'm confident the seller is legit.


----------



## CallumT

That bracket is only thin sheet metal if it is the same as on the Londinium machines, A bent bracket wont do anything not that you said it would... It also could have left the factory like that. Casing not so much.

Even if the machine was dropped its not an iPhone , its a mechanical object not complex micro sensitive electronics just age old relays. Reiss has had feedback of dropped L1s being fine; what I'm trying to say is to my knowledge none of the electronics are particularly fragile. And even after kicked about the local park I'd be suprised it wouldnt fire up and if it didnt it would be say a unhooked connection etc.

*Fine - Aside from aesthetic damage to casing


----------



## Wombat

Well that does give me cause for optimism. I've just spoken to Fracino who tell me a new boiler will be £250. Everything else, including a service, is under £100 so I'm hoping (if the boiler is ok) with some new casing and a few bits I can get it as good as new.

I have checked all the connection on the control box BTW, but there is other damage inside also - that red safety switch is in fact broken and a couple of metal fittings that look akin to washers were just rattling around inside the case.


----------



## CallumT

If the safety switch is broken that is the problem. remove the wires either side connect them up (this is temporary...) insulate them and fire it back up. That thermal safety trip will kill all power to the element. Small repairs soon add up to £250 - 300 so still be careful!


----------



## Dylan

The boiler is the metal casing, there is no way that is damaged. You aren't after a new boiler.

The element is what heats the water, and should be less than £50. But it could be something as simple as a loose connection, that would be my first guess if things have moved inside. As DSC said these things are built very solidly, and with basic solid metal parts that aren't prone to breakage.

Follow all the wires around the case and make sure they are all seated correctly, if you know anyone electrically minded get them to pop over and run a multimeter over it.

edit: Completely missed the bit about the safety switch - how is it broken exactly?


----------



## CallumT

Just bridge out the safety thermal trip, This should provide the explanation in the simplest diagnostic tool. Id be surprised if the element was throwing any issues at all considering how clean the machine looks internally.

The machine still has an aesthetic external metallic casing which isn't the boiler itself....


----------



## Wombat

Thanks for the tips fellas. Is there any danger in bridging the safety ie if another component has failed? If I'm opening a can of worms I'd rather wait for the claim to process. If it's reasonably safe and could lead to a cheap replacement part solution I'm definitely willing to roll up my sleeves


----------



## funinacup

It's fine. That part is one of a few safety features in the machine. Absolutely fine to bypass for troubleshooting purposes.


----------



## Dylan

Wombat said:


> Thanks for the tips fellas. Is there any danger in bridging the safety ie if another component has failed? If I'm opening a can of worms I'd rather wait for the claim to process. If it's reasonably safe and could lead to a cheap replacement part solution I'm definitely willing to roll up my sleeves


The safety is as simple as a normally closed switch, imagine a wire that runs through it, normally this wire is solid, but when the boiler reaches a certain temperature (around 135-150dec c) this normally solid wire is broken, breaking the circuit and thus the machine stops.

This safety is there purely to prevent the boiler overheating and becoming a dangerous pressurised beast.

By shorting this connection as Callum suggests you are just testing to see if the machine heats up, if it begins to you want to turn it off and replace the switch (£10ish).


----------



## Wombat

OK so this is what I'm working with.

Can anybody provide step-by-step instructions on the bypass? I mean, will I need to remove the plastic clips?


----------



## Wombat

Also there are 2 of these rattling around inside the casing, any ideas?


----------



## Dylan

You need to connect the two pins, or remove the wires and connect them.

Any wire that will firmly push into each of the clips to connect them will do, you will likely have to improvise with what you have at hand. You just need a solid connection between those wires.

Cant imagine what those 'washer' type things are for, check the bodywork and such things they look like some kind of pop connection.

Parts diagram for your machine here


----------



## Wombat

Cheers Dylan. Will a small segment of speaker wire do or will I need something a bit more substantial to carry the current?

Am I correct in thinking I just need a simple 'bridge' from the left to the right across where the red button should be?


----------



## CallumT

Easiest way is to commit to the destruction of the safety stat and pull one of the connectors out you should have enough to latch both connectors on fairly safely. It's only a control circuit there isn't that much demand in terms of amperage


----------



## Norvin

Break about 20mm from a junior hacksaw blade and use that to bridge the two connectors.


----------



## Wombat

So any old piece of metal will do?

If I mess this up am I going to see smoke or is this a safe thing for somebody as clueless as me to be attempting?


----------



## CallumT

Smoke and fire are both bad just kill at the wall; this won't happen there's not enough power draw it's just a control loop of "can I heat" if you'd like


----------



## grumpydaddy

As long as you keep the bare metal away from everything else the smoke will stay in


----------



## Wombat

Ha! Cheers fellas, glad I can still laugh about this.

Am I along the right lines here?


----------



## Norvin

If you get the length right, the connectors will butt up to each other, leaving no exposed metal. A wrap of electrical tape around the join would be a real belt and braces job.

In the Piccino, this bypass would carry a lot of current (heating element), may be the same for Cherub, so best make sure connection is sound before switching on.


----------



## grumpydaddy

Often hard to tell but the thicker the cable the higher the design current.

If the red on the right of the switch goes to the element terminal the you need the cable link to be as big as the existing connection cable but *more* important is the connection must be* tight!!*

Loose connections plus high currents cause heat enough to melt plastic.

It actually looks pretty good as a temporary fix but keep an eye on it

pic of loose connection:


----------



## Wombat

Well that was a catastrophe! Got some sparks, a bit of smoke and then I turned it off quickly. Not a happy ending unfortunately...


----------



## grumpydaddy

Where from??


----------



## Wombat

From my bridge. Melted plastic at the end of my bridge wire too, so I'm guessing something in there wasn't tight enough. Not being able to see much inside the clip, I was taking a hit and hope approach with the whole thing and I think this is a little beyond my skill set. I

've had a claim form through from the courier and they want invoices from the repair rather than just paying me out the £500 that I paid for my machine-come-paperweight. That means I'll either have to get it repaired at my own expense and then claim, or get an expert who can say it's basically a write-off.

Given that, I think it's time I stopped meddling in things beyond my skill level and just left it to the experts.

On another topic - should I drive 3 hours down to Fracino or is there someone in the North East that's pretty reliable for repairs etc?


----------



## Norvin

Should've used the broken bit of hacksaw blade.

You may need some of this.








Seriously, the heat shows there is a current and a faulty thermostat is still a possbility.

A retest with better bridge may show some heat in the boiler.


----------



## Dylan

Wombat- as a quick idea which will not cause you any electrical issues, is it at all possible to press the center of the safety thermostat with a toothpick or similar to see if it resets it moves at all?


----------



## funinacup

Turn the machine on and then hold the button in. This will complete the circuit and you'll be able to tell if the machine heats up.


----------



## Dylan

funinacup said:


> Turn the machine on and then hold the button in. This will complete the circuit and you'll be able to tell if the machine heats up.


Looks like the button is snapped off.


----------



## Wombat

Yeah I've tried pressing it but there's no movement at all. I didn't try holding pressure on so I'll give that a whirl. There's definitely current as I shocked myself last night trying to press the button whilst it was on using a metal pick!!


----------



## Dylan

I would try shorting it again, but make sure the connection is good.

I'm sure you will be able to find an engineer locally who can help if your not confident enough to try it.


----------



## grumpydaddy

The smoke that you let out infers a high current in the wire link or as said a loose connection. I am thinking the former.

Can you repeat the link but this time removed from the switch/cutout/reset?

Is the circuit this machine is plugged into fitted with an RCD in the "fuse box"?

Where in the country are you?


----------



## Wombat

I'm in Teesside Grumpy.

I'm inclined not to attempt the link again purely because when I take it to an engineer and ask if he can comment on the cause of the damage (for the purpose of evidencing the claim) he may well reply "well it's covered in burn marks..." when I want him to say "it's clearly been dropped by an Interlink employee"


----------



## grumpydaddy

Too far away for me to look









My musings:

this machine not heating..... Thermal trip/cutout is protecting the machine/wiring perhaps or is broken.

If broken then the wire link should have at least shown you that all else is well but

for that wire to get hot enough to melt the plastic insulation on it in the time you suggested there is another fault.

If house circuit has rcd then I would expect it to trip if live was getting to earth but if no rcd then only the fuse or breaker is protecting.

I have the feeling that the heater element is at fault and pulling too much power or that if no rcd the connection from the trip onwards to the element or the insulation of the element has failed or that wire/circuit is touching the case.

joining the wires again away from the trip would prove that the insulation of the trip itself is not the problem

It is easier to talk about this than type about it ......


----------



## 4085

I would tell the courier company to get stuffed. They have damaged your goods whilst in their care. An engineer, if you can find one will justifiably want to charge your to diagnose. You need to firmly tell them that they are welcome to collect the item for their own inspection, or arrange an engineer at their expense......not inconvenience you further.


----------



## CallumT

The thermal current doesn't carry the load of the element, or not in any machine I've Worked on it just doesn't make sense thicker cabling is more exp. and I doubt the cut out would be rated to suit. Although I haven't specifically really worked on anything smaller other than a couple of inlet solenoid issues on my machine at home.

Replace the plug, Read out the rating on the element ensure is fine for 13A (Im sure this will be the case) and re-bridge the connection in best means possible.

once bridged tape everything up safely and fire up, if your getting shorts to earth your main breaker for where the machine is plugged in will trip.

Like I initially mentioned this sounds like a different type of damage to a simple drop ; Just get the claim sorted and rid of the machine sounds like a troubled horse, and no one enjoys dealing with troubled horses


----------



## Wombat

Well turns out it was the stat - the impact had caused it to hit the casing and break off. Total cost of repair for labour, cosmetic work and replacement stat: £200!

Now to process that claim...


----------



## funinacup

What?! Sounds heavily inflated... A new stat is £15 and takes two seconds to fit. What else was done?


----------



## Wombat

Service and refurb: £50 and replacement casing £90. Then there was shipping etc also. It was done by Fracino themselves so I'd rather pay for it to be done properly and then deal with the courier, than risk having a complication come and bother me in 6 months time!


----------



## funinacup

Fair enough! As long as you have a working machine now!


----------

