# temp surfing on a classic



## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Hi Guys,

So..this is probably something that comes up pretty frequently, but,

I just wanted the latest on what people are doing with their classics

I've been struggling to get great tasting shots recently.

I've tried all the tricks, measurements, weights, times under the sun, but still in search of perfection..

So (ignoring milk) here is what i do to pour an espresso:-

1) warm up machine for at least 30mins (portafilter loaded).

2) measure beans/grind beans etc.

3) unlock portafilter - dry, measure, distribute, tamp etc.

4) hit the brew switch and pour about 2 shots worth through the group (warming cup underneath)

5) brew switch off

6) portafilter locked in as soon as temp light goes out

7) hit the brew switch as soon as light comes back on

The last bit is what interests me really..lights on? lights off?

Any thoughts?

Cheers

Andy


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

yep.. same as my carezza.. which is basically your classic. The light comes on to say the boiler is up to temp. So i do exactlty the same as you. Remove portafilter to dose and tamp, hit brew switch and pull some water through the head to warm my cup, then lock portafilter in, wait for light to come back on and then hit brew. Works pretty well.

It also works if you steam first too. These machines get far too hot when steaming, but if when you're finished, you just hit the brew switch until it clears out the boiler and the light goes off, you can then wait till it heats back up and do your shots.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

shrink said:


> yep.. same as my carezza.. which is basically your classic. The light comes on to say the boiler is up to temp. So i do exactlty the same as you. Remove portafilter to dose and tamp, hit brew switch and pull some water through the head to warm my cup, then lock portafilter in, wait for light to come back on and then hit brew. Works pretty well.
> 
> It also works if you steam first too. These machines get far too hot when steaming, but if when you're finished, you just hit the brew switch until it clears out the boiler and the light goes off, you can then wait till it heats back up and do your shots.


cheers shrink, i've heard that when the light goes out, the boiler clicks on (and vice versa) - could be a song couldn't it??









my question - as soon as the light goes on again, the boiler is off.. so won't the temperature start dropping immediately as i pull the shot?

i appreciate the temperature will drop anyway because of the cold water being drawn through, but just want to make sure my starting temps are correct..

was considering a PID kit you see..


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

well... you dont need much water for a shot though, so your likely to get a solid extraction just after the light comes back on. if you do it while the light is off, you wont know how far through the heat cycle it is. Likewise if you wait too long after the light comes on, it could end up too hot. I think your method of going right after the light clicks on, is a good one.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

When I had a Silvia I timed it all.

I timed how long it took for the brew light to come on after drawing off 2 cups of water. When making a shot I locked in after drawing off the 2 cups & then started brewing just a few seconds before the brew light was due to come back on. Thus the boiler kept on during the shot.

Used to get very consistent results using this method.

This worked with a Silvia because of the brass boiler & quality heater. Worth trying with a Classic I would have thought.

PID was definitely the way to go with a Silvia saved all the 'faffing' around


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

thanks ron - will try this tonight

so i'm assuming it takes approx the same time to reheat each time? (i.e. light off -> light back on again)

seriously considering an Auber PID kit..though its £140 towards my new cherub!


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## reneb (Nov 2, 2011)

shrink said:


> Likewise if you wait too long after the light comes on, it could end up too hot.


Surely, the longer the light is on the cooler the water is getting until the light goes off again and the boiler kicks in?

I've been wondering about all this myself as I don't always get consistent shots and I suspect this is partly to do with inconsistent temperatures (but more likely poor technique!). I wonder how big the temperature variation is in the classic, in other words, how wide the thermostat parameters are. A simple on/off thermostat can't really be the best way for getting consistent temperatures without some form of temperature surfing as described by the op.

Presumably, soon after the light has come on again the temperature of the boiler is at or very near maximum as set by the thermostat. I don't know what this temperature is set to or if anyone has measured it, but I'd have thought this might be too hot for some beans/grinds and might result in over-extraction and bitterness.

I tend to pour a couple of ounces of water through the group head and then wait for a minute after the light has come back on before pulling the shot, but I haven't really started experimenting with this yet to determine what timings taste best - I'm bound to be barking up the wrong tree







. Would make sense to get a thermometer and start measuring the temperature of the water at the brew head or get a PID.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

aphelion said:


> thanks ron - will try this tonight
> 
> so i'm assuming it takes approx the same time to reheat each time? (i.e. light off -> light back on again)
> 
> seriously considering an Auber PID kit..though its £140 towards my new cherub!


i agree, im not spending a penny on kit as its money to go towards a cherub. Then i'll flog on my Silvia wand, professional gaggia portafilter etc. The machine itself will probably just get binned!


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

shrink said:


> i agree, im not spending a penny on kit as its money to go towards a cherub. Then i'll flog on my Silvia wand, professional gaggia portafilter etc. The machine itself will probably just get binned!


yep i agree - £140 goes quite a way towards my new cherub

will continue using the classic as intended


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

reneb said:


> Surely, the longer the light is on the cooler the water is getting until the light goes off again and the boiler kicks in?
> 
> I've been wondering about all this myself as I don't always get consistent shots and I suspect this is partly to do with inconsistent temperatures (but more likely poor technique!). I wonder how big the temperature variation is in the classic, in other words, how wide the thermostat parameters are. A simple on/off thermostat can't really be the best way for getting consistent temperatures without some form of temperature surfing as described by the op.
> 
> ...


yep, a thermometer seems like a good investment

it seems hard to get the group temperature consistent on a classic


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I found flushing too much water before hand wasn't doing it any favours.

Here are my test results. http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?6049-Get-your-thermometers-out-we-re-doing-some-tests-on-the-Classic&highlight=classic+temp+surfing Might be worth doing something similar on your own machine just for your own peace of mind.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

thanks chimpsinties,

I did have a read of your post the other day ..and have started reducing my flush (ooh missus!)

what were your conclusions in the end?

(do you wait for the light? purge steam? etc)

cheers


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I will always try and purge steam but I don't do a massive flush. I think if the machine is up to temp then even if the light has just come on and you've flushed too much water it'll be low on temp. The only way to be sure is to PID it of course but I'm satisfied with my technique now.


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

You can DIY fit a PID for circa £40 if you're confident with the circuitry of the machine.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

MartinB said:


> You can DIY fit a PID for circa £40 if you're confident with the circuitry of the machine.


Hmm..bit scared of that lol


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

MartinB said:


> You can DIY fit a PID for circa £40 if you're confident with the circuitry of the machine.


That does actually sound quite tempting


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

i was tempted to go down the PID route, but not on the carezza, its lack of OPV, broken steam knob and piss poor drip tray mean that i don't really want to spend any real money on it


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

shrink said:


> i was tempted to go down the PID route, but not on the carezza, its lack of OPV, broken steam knob and piss poor drip tray mean that i don't really want to spend any real money on it


yeah, i think the money will be better spent on a cherub









...I figure in 6 months, i'll be practically giving my classic away anyway!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

yeah same here... the carezza will be worthless... the steam arm and portafilter are worth more!


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