# Discussion: Consumer issues re crowdfunding (Niche, MBK, Indiegogo, Kickstarter etc)



## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I've created this thread because we were detracting from discussion about the grinder itself.

A short summary of what was said on the other thread:


A few people gave the opinion that it would be better for consumers if the project left Indiegogo so that there was no doubt over consumer protections.

More people gave the opinion that it really doesn't matter where Niche sells its grinder.

Universally people credited Niche for its consumer-focused approach.

A few people gave the opinion that Indiegogo might not be acting appropriately by allowing a well-funded project to continue selling products under the umbrella of a crowdfunding campaign.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I've just been writing an article for my website about this issue in a wider context; using Niche as an example although not naming it. I've come to the tentative conclusion that Indiegogo would continue to be able to avoid liability under a sale of goods contract, but campaigners like Niche *may* be unable to avoid liability, and credit card companies might likewise be unable to.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

The thread would be better named Crowfunding Campain Legal Offshoot as it has much more to do with Indiegogo's T's&C's than Niche themselves.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Happy with whatever the mods decide on that one.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Thank god for the thread tools dropdown...can now put this thread on ignore....along with another well known thread.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

DavecUK said:


> Thank god for the thread tools dropdown...can now put this thread on ignore....along with another well known thread.


God forbid it clutter your 'New Posts' feed.

I agree this is more a thread on IGG 'InDemand' mode. Only brought about by Niche using the platform.

Should there be any updates to me 'complaining' about IGG I'll post it here.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

ajohn said:


> This all off topic really in a Niche thread. I can't understand why people can't see that it is still a project and that further development might take place. Currently you might say there is one long term user @DavecUK. Wonderful man etc but not a guarantee that all is ok. A 1000 users is likely to provide a lot more information than one who ever they are. Companies sometimes make the statement that they reserve the right to change anything in a product so Niche could sell differently and do the same. Afraid I see Niche in all aspects as still being a project. They actually do offer a warrantee but on the face of it needn't. Throw in all consumer rights and suddenly they have to be prepared to accept returns for any reason subject it seems to some time limit. In fact web sales platforms have that sort of thing built in for when they cease to be of any help. Even Paypal has one.
> 
> A 1000 might sound like a lot. Lets take TV's just in the UK. Seems there are 30million of them. Lets be daft and say they get changed every 10 years. That's still 3 million sales a year and that number will apply to a number of things. Maybe they should make a couple some how and get Davec or someone to say they are ok and then expose themselves to full consumer rights which in practice sometimes turn out not to be as good as they are reckoned to be. One thing they would need to accept is returns. They might even have to have the product tested for emissions. Many things are and tested in several other ways. They will have been included in standard regulations that apply to all things that are sold.
> 
> ...


 @ajohn

Your 1,000 user point is a good one; but all the more reason to apply the usual consumer protections. The key benefit would be the removal of any doubt as to whether Section 75 protection from credit card companies apply. That wouldn't harm Niche one bit.

Not one person has said Niche are taking advantage; in particular I have been very careful to make sure I don't criticise directly.

Fully agree Indiegogo and the like provide a valuable service.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Actually I think mods should kill this thread immediately. It's a coffee forum and posted in a coffee related section. It has no business being here or anywhere else on here really.

There is another aspect as well, a commercial one. n 100 Niche grinder sales to home users means n 100 less sales from the usual sources. It doesn't really matter if the people making the posts are not making them for that reason. It does matter that they might. Similar things do happen on forums that have to rely too heavily on commercial sponsorship even if just via adverts.

John

-


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Then report it and leave it to @Glenn to decide.

Or start you own forum and post there.

Please


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I don't understand your objection, ajohn. It's a discussion about consumer issues that have the potential to affect any purchase of one of the most talked about pieces of equipment of the moment. I don't see the harm.

If this is truly a niche issue (pun intended), then this thread will die very quickly anyway. I suspect it will.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

ajohn said:


> Actually I think mods should kill this thread immediately. It's a coffee forum and posted in a coffee related section. It has no business being here or anywhere else on here really.
> 
> -


Just..... Ok.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

For once and probably the only time, I agree with @ajohn...!



ajohn said:


> Actually I think mods should kill this thread immediately. It's a coffee forum and posted in a coffee related section. It has no business being here or anywhere else on here really.
> 
> There is another aspect as well, a commercial one. n 100 Niche grinder sales to home users means n 100 less sales from the usual sources. It doesn't really matter if the people making the posts are not making them for that reason. It does matter that they might. Similar things do happen on forums that have to rely too heavily on commercial sponsorship even if just via adverts.
> 
> ...


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Is this only on the basis that the majority of forum users disagree with its content, or based on something more fundamental?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

filthynines said:


> Is this only on the basis that the majority of forum users disagree with its content, or based on something more fundamental?


My objection is simply the reference to Niche being held up in the title and continually referred to. I think the thread should be deleted and restarted, more along the lines of varying degrees of consumer protection, and that would be most useful. Not being at all controversial but you obviously know what you are talking about.....


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

filthynines said:


> Is this only on the basis that the majority of forum users disagree with its content, or based on something more fundamental?


Possibly combination of not thinking that Niche will develop a failure (rightly so), buyer's denial (a term I made up just now) and not understanding the issue.

Crowdfunding projects are a gamble whether the funding will be successful, the idea will materialise, the item will deliver and the after-campaign support will be fine. It did work out for Niche and I sold mine for more than I paid for when I backed it - just because how successfully it's been ran. Can anyone name another crowdfunding project that was that successful? Well done to the Niche team.

I haven't received a promised second grinder by MBK for 1.5 years now - it seems like I'm not the only one, from the comments linked below... so I know how it feels when your hands are tied. There's something I did in a protest as I couldn't justify supporting such company, but that felt like a little victory only for myself anyway.

https://www.kickstarter.com/project...ew-compact-coffee-grinder-made-by-kn/comments


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

PPapa said:


> Possibly combination of not thinking that Niche will develop a failure (rightly so), buyer's denial (a term I made up just now) and not understanding the issue.
> 
> Crowdfunding projects are a gamble whether the funding will be successful, the idea will materialise, the item will deliver and the after-campaign support will be fine. It did work out for Niche and I sold mine for more than I paid for when I backed it - just because how successfully it's been ran. Can anyone name another crowdfunding project that was that successful? Well done to the Niche team.
> 
> ...


There are tons of successes. But also tons of failures or projects that deliver a half assed product.

When the discussion was in the Niche thread it was suggested it was moved as it was discussing IGG policies and not the Niche, now it's here and the Niche name has been mentioned the same people want the thread shut down...

The irony being that there was so little to discuss with regards to IGG's 'InDemand' policy that the only reason this thread has any traction is because the Niche name is here and some feel the need to defend it so vigorously. It seems pretty clear from the content of the thread to me that there is little question of Niche's actions in practice and the only relation to the thread is that they are using the 'InDemand' feature which is the thing some forum members felt a desire to discuss.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

ajohn said:


> Actually I think mods should kill this thread immediately. It's a coffee forum and posted in a coffee related section. It has no business being here or anywhere else on here really.
> 
> John
> 
> -


A coffee forum with . . . Dogs, motorbikes, pizzas, photography etc. And while freedom of expression is still in force I don't think anyone should be silenced. People have opinions, some are based in law, not everyone agrees . . .

If you don't 'like' reading the content then block the thread.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

PPapa said:


> I haven't received a promised second grinder by MBK for 1.5 years now - it seems like I'm not the only one, from the comments linked below...


And it had been so quiet on the MBK front. I thought he might have got the previous issues sorted out. You're not suggesting that the promised investment to improve communication and customer satisfaction didn't happen.


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## Oblivion (Mar 5, 2018)

For all the good things Niche brought forum users and this is how we react........ I see this as an attempt to discredit and sabotage Niche here... Glad to see some diversion towards another brand who funnily enough are covered by consumer protection but get away with woeful service if stories are to be believed.

I am a Niche owner and very happy. So much so I bought a second one and had it delivered on schedule like the first.

I agree the Niche reference should be removed from this topic.


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## GerryM (Feb 6, 2016)

ajohn said:


> Actually I think mods should kill this thread immediately. It's a coffee forum and posted in a coffee related section. It has no business being here or anywhere else on here really.-


Hi John,

This appears to be an attack on thinking, if you feel strongly enough to post why not contribute something persuasive that stimulates thinking rather than attempting to stifle it.

Can't recall who said it, 'Making conversation impossible, makes escalation inevitable'

The conversation here isn't specifically about the Niche, however, the Niche campaign and current status as a seller is an interesting and relevant one to consider on a coffee forum where people are likely to be considering purchasing other items via IGG in future ..... There are other threads that don't specifically discuss coffee and could be considered less relevant e.g. A New Funnies Thread, Favourite Films Thread... I've not noticed any complaints about those.

It may be helpful to put the thread in to a different category on the forum and I agree that the title may benefit from a change to make it more about the subject of consumer protection, IGG seller status or whatever seems most relevant, however, the idea that it has "No business being here or anywhere else on here really" feels too restrictive, my sense is the discussion should be about whatever contributors decide unless it breaks a forum rule.

The comment from DavecUK about blocking the thread will have an impact on how this subject is received, a comment from a leading member of the forum is going to sway opinion on the legitimacy or otherwise of a subject, product, method etc.... I imagine that DavecUK knows the potential impact his decision to post that he is blocking the thread may have.

I'm grateful to the filthynines and Dylan for exploring this subject, hopefully it will provide some clarity for consumers as well as for sellers like Niche and save them from any potentially costly mistakes due to a well intentioned sales route not being suitable.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

For folk that say Niche is not affected by this and should be excluded, they embrace the fact that these are orders - taken straight from their IGG profile:



> Please can we ask all current orders to double check their shipping details to make sure they are correct.


Also, can anyone clarify whether the warranty they provide is legally bounding?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can anyone here, claim to have done a "niche" style operation? designing and producing a Grinder at own cost....testing it for several years.....crowdfunding it.....selling it (which means building in house each grinder and packaging it and dispatching it) and selling it through indie....they are trying to fulfil orders.....I expect it is all hands on deck....this is not a British designed product shipped out to the Far East for assembly....it is built by them over here....they are a small family run business for goodness sake......actually, I agree that they ought to make the switch over to merchandising themselves, and I am sure they will do at some point as worldwide, there may well be people who are not willing to buy in the current style but @GerryM, I am willing to bet that Martin Nicholson has more design and production experience, and probably sales experience than anyone else of this forum.....give them a bit of time....dispatch has only been live 10 weeks!


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Oblivion said:


> For all the good things Niche brought forum users and this is how we react........ I see this as an attempt to discredit and sabotage Niche here... Glad to see some diversion towards another brand who funnily enough are covered by consumer protection but get away with woeful service if stories are to be believed.
> 
> I am a Niche owner and very happy. So much so I bought a second one and had it delivered on schedule like the first.
> 
> I agree the Niche reference should be removed from this topic.


Honestly, you're around the fifth or sixth person who has either implied this or outright said it. From my perspective at the very least (and I was the first to raise this as any issue at all):

1. I would receive zero benefit from Niche obtaining any negative publicity. Nor do I want them to receive any unwarranted criticism.

2. I will be buying a Niche as soon as my circumstances make that a reasonable purchase.

3. I am far more interested in the consumer protection side of things. It's part of my work.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

GerryM said:


> Hi John,
> 
> This appears to be an attack on thinking, if you feel strongly enough to post why not contribute something persuasive that stimulates thinking rather than attempting to stifle it.
> 
> ...


This nailed it, and I thought that before I read the last line giving gratitude. I appreciate that, @GerryM, though that's not why I'm writing on this stuff. (Though I know you understand that.)


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Can anyone here, claim to have done a "niche" style operation? designing and producing a Grinder at own cost....testing it for several years.....crowdfunding it.....selling it (which means building in house each grinder and packaging it and dispatching it) and selling it through indie....they are trying to fulfil orders.....I expect it is all hands on deck....this is not a British designed product shipped out to the Far East for assembly....it is built by them over here....they are a small family run business for goodness sake......actually, I agree that they ought to make the switch over to merchandising themselves, and I am sure they will do at some point as worldwide, there may well be people who are not willing to buy in the current style but @GerryM, I am willing to bet that Martin Nicholson has more design and production experience, and probably sales experience than anyone else of this forum.....give them a bit of time....dispatch has only been live 10 weeks!


They can sell it how they like, because the market will decide whether it's prepared to accept the way that it is being sold. It is perfectly clear that sales continue to flow, so there's every incentive for them to keep doing what they're doing.

However, if you're in business then you need to do it in a business-like way. Part of that is being responsible as a trader. Niche has largely done a great job with that - there's a ton of updates on the IGG page, and the communication appears to have been fantastic. But selling products in this way blurs the lines about consumer protection in a way that isn't helpful. But, if people want to go ahead either in full acceptance of that or in ignorance - and 1,060 have - then they are fully entitled to do so and should enjoy the product when it arrives.

On a wider note: can I again point out where I have acknowledged the excellent things that Niche have done? Nobody can claim I've been anything other than objective.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> they are trying to fulfil orders.....I expect it is all hands on deck....this is not a British designed product shipped out to the Far East for assembly....it is built by them over here....they are a small family run business for goodness sake.....


Building in the UK is commendable. It would be nice to see more of it.

Hopefully they will scale up the business to meet demand and fall foul of the success of the product, unlike another hand built grinder manufacturer in the UK.

Saying this as I wish them well. They have brought a product to market that has filled a gap. The demand for the grinder shows that they met the requirements for that gap.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

PPapa said:


> For folk that say Niche is not affected by this and should be excluded, they embrace the fact that these are orders - taken straight from their IGG profile:
> 
> Also, can anyone clarify whether the warranty they provide is legally bounding?


Can you point me to the copy you've seen? I wonder if it's the same one as I've seen; but you've actually purchased one of the products and so might have seen different documentation. I had one observation on the copy I saw.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

working dog said:


> Building in the UK is commendable. It would be nice to see more of it.
> 
> Hopefully they will scale up the business to meet demand and fall foul of the success of the product, unlike another hand built grinder manufacturer in the UK.
> 
> Saying this as I wish them well. They have brought a product to market that has filled a gap. The demand for the grinder shows that they met the requirements for that gap.


By the way, the comments regarding the MBK campaign and the issues that appear to have arisen there are *exactly *why this sort of thing needs to be aired and considered.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

filthynines said:


> Can you point me to the copy you've seen? I wonder if it's the same one as I've seen; but you've actually purchased one of the products and so might have seen different documentation. I had one observation on the copy I saw.


I don't have a copy of warranty as I don't have a Niche anymore. It's basically a standard 1 year warranty as long as you don't go hammering nails with it.


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## Oblivion (Mar 5, 2018)

filthynines said:


> They can sell it how they like, because the market will decide whether it's prepared to accept the way that it is being sold. It is perfectly clear that sales continue to flow, so there's every incentive for them to keep doing what they're doing.
> 
> However, if you're in business then you need to do it in a business-like way. Part of that is being responsible as a trader. Niche has largely done a great job with that - there's a ton of updates on the IGG page, and the communication appears to have been fantastic. But selling products in this way blurs the lines about consumer protection in a way that isn't helpful. But, if people want to go ahead either in full acceptance of that or in ignorance - and 1,060 have - then they are fully entitled to do so and should enjoy the product when it arrives.
> 
> On a wider note: can I again point out where I have acknowledged the excellent things that Niche have done? Nobody can claim I've been anything other than objective.


So really you are questioning the moral position of Niche.

In the other threat you state you are a lawyer? What kind of lawyer and do you have access to any consumer case law on matters you pontificate over here?


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

PPapa said:


> I don't have a copy of warranty as I don't have a Niche anymore. It's basically a standard 1 year warranty as long as you don't go hammering nails with it.


Because I'm now drilling into detail I need to say that nobody should rely on this as legal advice and if you treat it as such you do so at your own risk. Take legal advice. That goes for any legal analysis I do on this thread or the other Niche thread.

That said:

https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/terms-conditions/ is at the bottom of the website. This isn't fit for purpose, but is extremely common amongst established online retailers.

https://www.nichecoffee.co.uk/guarantee/ appears to be the warranty/guarantee. It refers to statutory rights (unclear what they are for reasons already given).

The bit I take issue with under the guarantee is this:

"The original purchaser/Indiegogo backer must notify NICHE in writing within eight (8) days if there are defective parts."

I think Niche would find it difficult to enforce that term.

There's also a large exclusion clause. Many of the elements appear to run contrary to statutory rights, which is why it's so important to know what statutory rights apply here.

Also, something which I'm surprised about is this in the context of returning faulty products:

"This guarantee does not cover the cost of returning the product to NICHE and this will be paid by the purchaser/Indiegogo backer."

That is also contrary to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 at Section 23(2)(b), which states:

"(2)If the consumer requires the trader to repair or replace the goods, the trader must-

(a)do so within a reasonable time and without significant inconvenience to the consumer, and

*(b)bear any necessary costs incurred in doing so (including in particular the cost of any labour, materials or postage)*."


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Oblivion said:


> So really you are questioning the moral position of Niche.
> 
> In the other threat you state you are a lawyer? What kind of lawyer and do you have access to any consumer case law on matters you pontificate over here?


Not questioning the moral position of Niche. What moral position could that possibly be?

I'm a barrister and I practise commercial law. I hold a Master's degree in commercial law, part of which covered sale of goods. I have a number of industry-standard sources for my information.

edit: You asked specifically about case law. There is a distinct lack of it under the 2015 Act. There are a couple of reasons: first is that the legislation is so new, and second is that nobody litigates unless it's about the value of a small car upwards.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

FWIW I did change the title of the thread, but perhaps it doesn't work unless the mods do it.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

I think this subject has a place here . It has been conducted by those that started it in a measured and polite way .

I don't have a Niche but might consider one .

Niche is a business , they saw a hole in the market place , designed and brought to manufacture and sold their grinder . As most they would have done this to make money , however nice they , are however good the product is , The bottom line is profit . So that puts them in the same category as all the others we buy from .

I don't hear any complaints when other companies are put in the firing line .

So I look forward to this discussion continuing.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@filthynines

"The original purchaser/Indiegogo backer must notify NICHE in writing within eight (8) days if there are defective parts."

Surely that is an indiegogo thing and not Niche specific, which is exactly why Niche went the extra mile in reassuring peoples concern on warranty


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> @filthynines
> 
> "The original purchaser/Indiegogo backer must notify NICHE in writing within eight (8) days if there are defective parts."
> 
> Surely that is an indiegogo thing and not Niche specific, which is exactly why Niche went the extra mile in reassuring peoples concern on warranty


As far as I can tell Indiegogo would have no input into that, and I get that impression because I lifted that text from the Niche website not Indiegogo. The reference to "Indiegogo backer" seems to have been specifically inserted alongside purchaser.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've been asked so.

I object to the thread and comments in the other one in one respect and disagree with them in another.

Objection is easy. How ever you look at it the threads are sniping Niche. It bears no relationship to performance etc. The other problem with this is that is that it *could* be purely down either directly or indirectly to some disgruntled people thinking look at all of those mignons etc I could have sold and haven't. The same people might want to sell it and find they can't. Exaggerating eventually home users might conclude they should buy an SGP and save for a Niche or just buy one in the first place even if it means delay. Boat rockers in the commercial world often run into problems.

Disagreement. More complicated. I've already mentioned some things. They just relate to crowd funding and it resulting in what can be seen as an *initial* success. Indiegogo is well set up for startups. The other way might be to go to a bank with a business plan. Or try and interest the Dragon's on TV or similar people. They are about. They could improve their chances by producing a working item. Believe it or not there are hobbyists about that could do that, lid more of a problem though. More likely they will pay some one to do the work.

Ok along comes some form of success but what about cash flow. A problem we all have - what comes in matching what goes out. The same sources could be approached again now with some figures. If some one is increasing production rates something has to pay for it even if it's just to get some people in to assemble. Maybe it can no longer be done in the kitchen or garage etc. Maybe it now needs something much more like a factory. Maybe there is no longer enough room for storage. Maybe there is a need to do a deal with a shipper to keep costs down. It can go on and on in all sorts of areas that many wont even consider.

There is another aspect to cash. What do people do who are involved in say Niche do to pay their bills, eat, run the car and etc etc. They are bound to have put some of their own cash in at some point. Maybe there is none left so maybe they should claw some or all of it back. I wouldn't fancy have none as I have no idea what might happen tomorrow and if I feel there isn't enough about I try and correct it.

Then comes buy and something goes wrong, is the guarantee legal etc. I'd say that very probably is but if a business fails no guarantee is and in all probability if some one tries the legal root to a solution they will probably find there is nothing to claim against. Failure is often ok for heads of Ltd companies and directors etc. Things aren't so simple for an individual.

Another point I would be inclined to make is that people look at crowd funding and notice catches. Well simple really accept them or don't use it. Bleating about it on here wont achieve anything large scale. It might push Niche into doing something it doesn't want to do for a whole variety of reasons but that is about it. That could cause the project to have problems.

Legal people. Well go do something about it. Posting on here like this is just sniping Niche. Go snipe crowd funding. There isn't any point really as I have yet to hear of anyone who wasn't aware of the problems. If legal people feel that some one may be taking advantage of crowd funding fine posting on here wont achieve anything. Again go do something about it. It has been done before. Some one took on the entire automotive industry world wide and won. It was rather a long time ago and I doubt if he could use crowd funding or set up a charity to help. Idiegogo should be chickenfeed compared with that. Ok they aren't killing people but it seems allowing people to cheat. Perhaps crowd fund users should make their income tax receipts and assets publicly available and etc.

Legal people have motives too. Hopefully just intellectual or moral ones in. In Indiegogo case I think interference of that sort when some one looks at it end to end would kill it. Legal solutions can also have bizarre results that could have been solved in other ways. For a laugh 2 of them. The party wall act and needing to paint a window that needs access to some one else's property. You wouldn't believe what the pot of paint would cost. Party wall act - well doesn't matter any more where it's likely to affect most people - depends on what they need to do.

John

-


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cripes the underground mignon movements has been uncovered. We are doomed


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

I wish I hadn't asked now. I'm not going to address everything you said; just one element.

"Legal people have motives too."

As far as I am aware I am the only person in the discussion that has claimed any legal expertise whatsoever, so I'm going to make the assumption that you're referring to me.

So then, what exactly is my motive? A concrete answer is required, because otherwise you're simply casting aspersions without basis. You'll find I'll almost certainly ask you to retract your remarks.

By the way, I will be addressing the crowdfunding industry separately. I think this consumer issue is a big one. I highly doubt that the tenuous conclusion you can draw from "There isn't any point really as I have yet to hear of anyone who wasn't aware of the problems." is that all users of crowdfunding are satisfied that if they fork over up to £500 for an item that they have no recourse if something goes wrong.


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## Oblivion (Mar 5, 2018)

Ajohn I agree.

Exactly what this all is, sniping....cheap shots discuised as some moot legal argument.

We have an apparent legal expert here canvassing opinion from people with possibly no legal background?

I'm sure a victims of crowdfunding campaigns are a plenty and a court case can be brought at little cost through the charity of our expert. Precedent can be set and all can be good again.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

After reading all of those scenarios I'm not sure which way is up anymore


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Oblivion said:


> Ajohn I agree.
> 
> Exactly what this all is, sniping....cheap shots discuised as some moot legal argument.
> 
> ...


Feel free to follow the example of some of the other members of this forum and just ignore the thread. It's of no interest to you and that's absolutely fine. Very peculiar that you're accusing people of sniping and then trying to be quite personal in your own remarks. I'm only sorry that my frank explanation of my credentials didn't give you the ammunition to come up with anything funnier or wittier.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

What cheap shots, by the way?

Niche as a company: good.

Niche as a product: excellent.

Communication from Niche: excellent.

Let me reassure all Niche owners that I think you've made excellent purchases. Let me invite anybody who wants to buy one brand new to continue to do so as long as they're comfortable with the supposed risks that a minority of us have expressed here. Those risks may be completely unfounded, and if you happen to think that they are unfounded then you can ignore all of this discussion and buy the machine and enjoy it!

Do you want me to clarify anything more so that it's clear that I'm not taking any cheap shots?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

filthynines said:


> What cheap shots, by the way?
> 
> Niche as a company: good.
> 
> ...


So why put Niche in the title of the thread at all?

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> So why put Niche in the title of the thread at all?
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


The original context of the discussion was the way in which Niche was being sold. If people want to read this information and find it of use when considering whether to buy a Niche then they should be free to do so.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

filthynines said:


> The original context of the discussion was the way in which Niche was being sold. If people want to read this information and find it of use when considering whether to buy a Niche then they should be free to do so.


Bad arguement in my opinion. You keep trying to tell us this isn't an attack on Niche yet by specifically naming them in the thread title it can't be anything else!

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> Bad arguement in my oppinion. You keep trying to tell us this isn't an attack on Niche yet by specifically naming them in the thread title it can't be anything else!
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


You're welcome to your opinion.

Define "attack". edit: Because if I was attacking Niche I would be calling them names and telling people not to buy from them. I've done the exact opposite.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

filthynines said:


> You're welcome to your opinion.
> 
> Define "attack".


Gladly.

attack

VERB

[WITH OBJECT]

1Take aggressive military action against (a place or enemy forces) with weapons or armed force.

'in February the Germans attacked Verdun'

no object*'the terrorists did not attack again until March'

More example sentences

Synonyms

1.1*Act against (someone or something) aggressively in an attempt to injure or kill.

'a doctor was attacked by two youths'

More example sentences

Synonyms

1.2*(of a disease, organism, or other agent) act harmfully or destructively on.

'Ebola attacks the immune system'

'she was diagnosed with a potentially fatal condition in which bacteria attack the intestinal lining'

More example sentences

Synonyms

2Criticize or oppose fiercely and publicly.

'he attacked the government's defence policy'

More example sentences

Synonyms

3Begin to deal with (a problem or task) in a determined and vigorous way.

'a plan of action to attack unemployment'

More example sentences

Synonyms

4British*no object*(in sport) make a forceful attempt to score a goal or point or otherwise gain an advantage against an opposing team or player.

'Crystal Palace attacked swiftly down the left'

More example sentences

4.1Chess*with object*Move into or be in a position to capture (an opponent's piece or pawn)

'the white queen attacks the black rook'

More example sentences

5Chemistry*

(of a reagent or reactive species) approach and interact with (an atom, group, or bond in a molecule), thereby breaking a bond or forming a new bond.

'the nucleophile attacks the epoxide from the opposite side of the ring to the oxygen'

NOUN

1An aggressive and violent act against a person or place.

'he was killed in an attack on a checkpoint'

'three classrooms were gutted in the arson attack'

'the north-western suburbs came under attack in the latest fighting'

More example sentences

Synonyms

1.1mass noun*Destructive action by a disease, chemical, or insect.

'the tissue is open to attack by fungus'

More example sentences

1.2*A determined attempt to tackle a problem or task.

'an attack on inflation'

More example sentences

1.3mass noun*Forceful and decisive style in performing music or another art.

'the sheer attack of Hendrix's playing'

More example sentences

2An instance of fierce public criticism or opposition.

'he launched a stinging attack on the Prime Minister'

More example sentences

Synonyms

3A sudden short bout of an illness or stress.

'an attack of nausea'

'an asthma attack'

More example sentences

Synonyms

4(in sport) an aggressive attempt to score a goal or point or otherwise gain an advantage.

'a Cardiff attack broke down inside Llanelli's 22'

mass noun*'United hardly did a thing in attack'

More example sentences

4.1British*The players in a team who are in the position of trying to score a goal or win points.

'Baxter was recalled to the attack'

More example sentences

4.2Chess*A threat to capture an opponent's piece or pawn.

'the move opens up an attack from the black bishop against White's knight'

More example sentences

Origin

Early 17th century: from French attaque (noun), attaquer (verb), from Italian attacco 'an attack', attaccare 'join battle', based on an element of Germanic origin (see attach).

Pronunciation

attack

/əˈtak/

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Yeah, I thought you might do that. Bravo.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

filthynines said:


> Yeah, I thought you might do that. Bravo.


Treat me like Alexa you'll get a response like from Alexa! 

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## Oblivion (Mar 5, 2018)

filthynines you are being very tactful and careful how you praise Niche but in the next paragraph sow a seed of doubt into those prospective purchasers over this legal smokescreen.

I am of the opinion you are trolling Niche but doing it in a way as to escape legal backlash from them.

You hijacked one thread and got greedy with this one. Exposed.

I'll leave it there.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Oblivion said:


> filthynines you are being very tactful and careful how you praise Niche but in the next paragraph sow a seed of doubt into those prospective purchasers over this legal smokescreen.
> 
> I am of the opinion you are trolling Niche but doing it in a way as to escape legal backlash from them.
> 
> ...


Classic "I don't understand this so I'll just call it trolling." Better than the Mignon conspiracy theory, I suppose. See ya.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Many thanks to whichever mod who decided to rename this thread.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> Many thanks to whichever mod who decided to rename this thread.
> 
> Laissez les bons temps rouler


Agreed. Happy with the title?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

filthynines said:


> FWIW I did change the title of the thread, but perhaps it doesn't work unless the mods do it.


Title changed to reflect focus of discussion related to consumer issues/rights in relation to crowdfunding projects.

Thread moved to Coffee Lounge.


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## Oblivion (Mar 5, 2018)

Now perhaps discussion can be had without mentioning the "N" word? Let's see how long it lasts......


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Oblivion said:


> Now perhaps discussion can be had without mentioning the "N" word? Let's see how long it lasts......


My guess is slightly longer than it took for you to resume your input in this thread you have no interest in, but less time than you would hope.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Might be a good idea to take a coffee break before hitting the keyboard

Thread is about consumer issues/rights regarding crowdfunding and the author is raising valid points where a product originally funded under the crowdfunding umbrella has grown beyond it.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Would be a shame to have to close the thread because discussion becomes heated and/or personal.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Would be a shame to have to close the thread because discussion becomes heated and/or personal.


Fair point. I'll do my best to avoid that.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh my gosh! I cannot believe that the whole front page of recent posts is dedicated to this thread! Sadly I have perpetuated that through this post.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The lengths people will go to defend a coffee grinder they bought amazes me. Including some kind of inference of a 5th estate trying to undermine things.

It doesn't change the fact that any product sold, any product not just ones related to here, this way under the current premise form IGG do not potentially carry that appropriate consumer rights.

For people to start casting aspersions that the OP on this is a troll or is commiting some kind of industrial espionage is unfair.

If you are happy to buy any product as it is under igg then fine you have made that decision. Its shouldn't stop others pointing out the potential pit falls to people that can relate to any product bought this way.


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Would be a shame to have to close the thread because discussion becomes heated and/or personal.


Oh no it wouldn't...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Chacun a son goût.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

This thread is mind boggling.

The scale of the straw man being constructed around the idea of Filthynines supposed hatred of Niche is at fervarent Alex Jones levels.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Who is Alex Jones??


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

I had to look it up .. I think he is an American conspiracy theorist


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Who is Alex Jones??


A presenter on the one show apparently.

Laissez les bons temps rouler


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## enrm6 (Jun 7, 2018)

I think this is an interesting discussion. Not knowing a lot about indiegogo, other than buying one product through them, do we know what sort of T&Cs they have? They seem to have some system to transition between crowdfunding and commerce (their words) called InDemand but it seems like more crowdfunding and they don't say anything about what defines being ready for 'commerce'. To use a phrase used earlier in the thread, what defines not being a 'project' anymore? Presumably if this is all undefined, anyone could fund, market and deliver a project through this portal even if they are a well established company. If this then provides diminished consumer responsibility that's somewhat dubious is it not?


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Discussing Consumer Law in a coffee forum is like discussing latte art on a law forum, and fueling such discussions in such places is just over-frothing the cappuccino.









So leaving the steam wand in the milk for a moment and walking to the keyboard ... It was very clear to me several months ago long before shipping dates existed, i was NOT buying a consumer good but investing in a crowd funded project, which a possible perk - with no real definite delivery date as a result.

I did my project research, and thought yep worth a punt, i knew nothing about grinders but enough to know this project was likely to deliver, maybe eventually.

This is made very clear https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526816-How-to-Evaluate-a-Campaign and like buying things on fleabay or at the car boot sale, you might just a cracking reward or you might get a lemon or perhaps just a raspberry!

My jug runneth over...


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## brabzzz (Apr 14, 2017)

.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

If, as a lay person, I was asked as at what point moneys received (and goods supplied) as "crowd funding" for a development project, AND I had been informed that the target fund was an appropriate amount for that project, I would lean towards the suggestion that "selling'', (and therefore consumer protection law) started when the declared funding target had been reached.

At this point, (as a lay person) I would also consider any third party collecting moneys on behalf, with or without any fee, should also treated as the principal.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Agentb said:


> Discussing Consumer Law in a coffee forum is like discussing latte art on a law forum, and fueling such discussions in such places is just over-frothing the cappuccino.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Firstly - If you have a large group of people on a law forum who do latte art, then they should feel free to discuss that in off topic. Much like there is a group of people on this forum who use IGG have decided they would like to discuss potentially unfair terms.

Are you suggesting that any off topic discussion such as bikes, mobile phones, home audio, TV's etc etc etc is also 'over frothing the cappuccino'?

Secondly - You are talking about the crowdfunding stage. This isn't really whats being discussed as it is more or less accepted that you are eschewing your consumer rights as you back a campaign, or rather; they never existed as you are not 'buying' a product. We are discussing the 'InDemand' stage which is after the campaign has finished and the company is in production. IGG still allows orders to be taken and despite at this stage there being no significant differences between a company using 'InDemand' and any other company selling any other good the consumer is still supposedly waiving any rights.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

enrm6 said:


> I think this is an interesting discussion. Not knowing a lot about indiegogo, other than buying one product through them, do we know what sort of T&Cs they have? They seem to have some system to transition between crowdfunding and commerce (their words) called InDemand but it seems like more crowdfunding and they don't say anything about what defines being ready for 'commerce'. To use a phrase used earlier in the thread, what defines not being a 'project' anymore? Presumably if this is all undefined, anyone could fund, market and deliver a project through this portal even if they are a well established company. If this then provides diminished consumer responsibility that's somewhat dubious is it not?


Hi @enrm6, sorry I took so long to respond to this. I've been pre-occupied elsewhere.

My view of Indiegogo's position on their involvement is that they basically consider themselves to be a provider of services for the purpose of promotion of crowdfunding campaigns. They effectively disclaim any responsibility for anything anybody does through the site. I gather this much from Section 6 of their terms and conditions here https://www.indiegogo.com/about/terms#/indiegogosrole

In short, you're right: an established company could go down this route to avoid consumer protections. I think it's unlikely, but it's theoretically possible. Unlikely because Indiegogo take a decent chunk of the cash, and once established you could probably sell whatever through your own website at lower cost. If an established company went to that much trouble to avoid customer protection then I would guess they're probably just going to be flat out fraudulent anyway.

Frankly it doesn't matter what Indiegogo claims to be or claims not to be insofar as the law is concerned. At an appropriate juncture in time (massive crowdfund, huge collapse, large value contribution per funder) if there was a court case dealing with it then the question would be whether Indiegogo is a retailer (thus falling under the Consumer Rights Act 2015), or whether some other obligations accrue to Indiegogo under law. The problem is that they currently say "nothing to do with us, guv" as a standard line, meaning that any recourse to them would need to be fought for. As many have said: that's the danger of crowdfunding. But I'm not convinced that the common wisdom of that fact is particularly common.


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## joe (Nov 13, 2014)

I never bought into a Niche at the crowdfunding stage.

I placed an order for one when they were on general sale.

I did not crowd fund it.

( I love it and think it is beautifully made )

If I have a problem with it I will expect Niche to sort it out.

( I am confident that they will )

If they do not sort it out and claim that it is not their problem because they are protected by its crowdfunded status then I shall seek recourse through the Small Claims Courts where common sense prevails and , as the manufacturer and being based in the EU, Niche will be held to be responsible for my consumer rights.

Why you are all having a poke at Filthynines for merely querying the reach of those rights is beyond me.

Fanboi's holster your pistols !

Are Niche now retailing a finished product ? ..... yes

Is there a warranty included with that product ? .... yes.

Is that warranty worth the paper it is written on ?..... that is the question that Filthynines is exploring.

And he is exploring it in the general context of all crowdfunded products referencing Niche as a for instance and not solely in particular.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I had recourse to contact niche recently, they repsosned quickly, above and beyond the service level I expected and the turn around was a matter of 48 hours.

I was not even the original purchaser of said item.

Can I gaurentee they will be like this with everyone, nope.

Does it give me a little faith they stand behind there product and customers. Yes.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

joe said:


> Is that warranty worth the paper it is written on ?..... that is the question that Filthynines is exploring.


FWIW I dont think this is the question being explored. If Niche write down a warranty on a piece of paper an supply it with their products then they are bound by it - there is no way they could ever row back even if they wanted to (not that I have read through the warranty or know how its worded)

Just again to bring up the point that this thread is not about Niche per se, but generally about products sold via crowdfunding and in particular those sold after the product has finished its campaign and is in production but is still being sold through a site which does not provide consumers with their statutory rights for a purchase within the UK(/EU). Niche happen to be part of this but have evidently proven themselves to be a brand to trust. I know I sound like a broken record but every time Niche gets brought up as the subject of the thread it descends into a completely off topic farce, so I feel it's worth reiterating.


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## joe (Nov 13, 2014)

Dylan said:


> FWIW I dont think this is the question being explored. If Niche write down a warranty on a piece of paper an supply it with their products then they are bound by it - there is no way they could ever row back even if they wanted to (not that I have read through the warranty or know how its worded)
> 
> .


Yes... I was speaking metaphorically.

I was talking about all crowd funded projects really.

Unless Niche, who are a niche manufacturer (at the moment ) get their business plan so screwed up that they go bust ( that is a risk with any manufacturer of any product we buy ) I think that they will be around to honour any warranty claims. And I firmly believe that they will honour any such legitimate claims. It's sound business practice so to do, after all it's not vapourware we are discussing here...it's a solid lump that has been through endless designs mockups and prototypes. They have put their heart and soul into this product and they would want it to be a roaring success. Customer service would be crucial to that success.....it's all part of the package.

Fly-by-nights they are not.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

I raised these concerns when the Niche was in development, because I had been scammed on Kickstarter before, got politely told to shut the **** up, and even got threatened with legal action by our resident expert before my post was deleted by an admin.

Fair enough (well not really fair but whatever) I thought. I will just buy one when it is a proven product, from their webshop where I am as a customer actually covered by law. That way if I buy it and it doesn't work I can just send it back under warranty. *Or if I buy it and don't like it and sell it on, it's new owner can do so.*

And now they are selling finished versions...still through the crowdbuyer shop....... this looks...wierd to me. Why?

*Indigogo require the original purchaser to submit a warranty claim*. See the bold above? Hard to do that if you're the 2nd or third owner isn't it?

Is it an amazing product? Probably (I don't own one and won't own one as long as I can't buy it properly).

Is it cheap for what it is? Probably.

Does it have a 2 year transferable warrantly like it's competition does through BB? Nope.

Are you even allowed to talk about it without singing it's praises? Nope. (My experience plus any thread started about it in a negative fashion like this one comes with disapproval by loyal customers and people who might be more than just customers cough cough)

You can't realistically expect people to not have doubt over a product that is not sold correctly and any probing questions get censored.

As for the legal threat I recieved, there's a 2 year grace period before all the truth gets revealed on companies house so if one is so inclined, one shall see, eh?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

thesmileyone said:


> I raised these concerns when the Niche was in development, because I had been scammed on Kickstarter before, got politely told to shut the **** up, and even got threatened with legal action by our resident expert before my post was deleted by an admin.
> 
> Fair enough (well not really fair but whatever) I thought. I will just buy one when it is a proven product, from their webshop where I am as a customer actually covered by law. That way if I buy it and it doesn't work I can just send it back under warranty. *Or if I buy it and don't like it and sell it on, it's new owner can do so.*
> 
> ...


Transferable warranties aren't a legal requirement. There are plenty of products available on the high street that don't offer one.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

Sure, but it's competition does, so you would think it would.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

thesmileyone said:


> Sure, but it's competition does, so you would think it would.


Why ever would I think that? They have other competition that don't offer a transferable warranty so I see no reason why they should be forced to when they don't legally have to.

They've already gone above & beyond by supplying a warranty on all their grinders including the ones given away as perks to the crowdfunding backers.

Besides. This is all very off topic on a thread that is specifically about the legalities of the crowdfunding platform itself & the products offered through it!


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

ashcroc said:


> This is all very off topic on a thread that is specifically about the lwgaliriea of the croqdfunding platform itself


That's right let's keep this about the lwgaliriea of the croqdfunding


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

jlarkin said:


> That's right let's keep this about the lwgaliriea of the croqdfunding


Damn fingers!


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## GerryM (Feb 6, 2016)

thesmileyone said:


> As for the legal threat I recieved, there's a 2 year grace period before all the truth gets revealed on companies house so if one is so inclined, one shall see, eh?


You've lost me a bit here, I missed the original thread which you referred to in your post, what was the threat, who was it from and were there reasonable grounds for them requesting whatever they requested?


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

That sounds unusual to say the least. The trouble is that the way you've articulated the issue means I can think that there are perhaps two people who fit the bill; though neither would I consider to be a spokesman for the company. All I'll say is truth is a total defence to defamation.

That aside, I was very encouraged by the way that @Mrboots2u had his Niche dealt with. Niche certainly seems to be approaching their relationship with their customers in a way that is consumer-centric.

On the subject of transferable warranty: I was astounded when I learned Bella Barista provide such warranties, because I can't think of another product - cars aside - where the warranty travels with the product. I would never have expected Niche to bear this burden. I don't like the wording of their warranty as mentioned before, but if they deal with every case in the way that Boots was dealt with then I think they have a recipe for many happy customers.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

I just don't understand why Niche don't sell it through their own store. It doesn't take much effort to setup a Shopify store under your own domain name. Futhermore, for marketing and brand reputability, such as positive SEO, all feedback would be product generated and not people's opinions of Indigogo affecting their brand. How many people must Niche have lost as customers because people (like me) are not happy with Kickstarter and Indigogo? It makes no sense.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

After almost half a million pounds turnover it is strange for me too.


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

That was my original issue too. I asked directly and was given a near-immediate response that they're at full capacity with the actual production of the goods and so the website has taken a backseat. Fair enough for now I think, especially as they continue to sell via IGG.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

On the other hand everything is transparent on Indiegogo.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

L&R said:


> On the other hand everything is transparent on Indiegogo.


Is it?

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/business/indiegogo.html


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

thesmileyone said:


> Is it?
> 
> https://www.consumeraffairs.com/business/indiegogo.html


That link is a load of twaddle. Anyone who goes for a crowd funded item that doesn't exist yet has a screw loose somewhere if they don't realise that things can go completely wrong and the end result may be that they get nothing. It might be possible to pursue who ever collects the money from a project but I suspect terms and conditions would prevent that providing they could demonstrate that they had really tried and the money did go where it should have.

Why might some one remain crowd funded. See this one on the market place. There are lots of similar pages

https://www.indiegogo.com/products/hudway-glass-keep-your-eyes-on-the-road-gadget--2

Notice it doesn't say ebay style buy it now n remaining. It just says buy it. Terms and conditions for the seller are entirely different to crowd funding. Niche has another problem - what rate they will sell at. A lot of current purchasers already have a grinder. I may well buy a 2nd one - wonder how many others will. They need to stock to offer sales that way. How many, how much cash do they need to build them, can they build at a rate to meet demand what ever that turns out to be. People are working on it at the moment - they need to eat and pay their bills.

I suspect many of the whinges are down to crowd funding nearly 1/2 million quid and that still increasing. Niche's original target was probably just about enough to get them going. Pound notes needed escalate at a pretty rapid rate when tooling is involved and costs may even need to include that at some point they will wear out. As was mentioned they have also contributed a significant amount themselves.

indiegogo being responsible? Feasible I suppose. They take a profit obviously. They then dole out some to the person that is raising money but also keep some back in case the project fails. That would need to be somewhat lopsided.







That could get hilarious when a project does succeed even to the extent of just when that actually happens.

John

-


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## filthynines (May 2, 2016)

Crowdfunding is not nearly so established yet as to be universally understood. A great deal more education of consumers needs to take place, and whilst that happens there needs to be great care taken by crowdfunding platforms.

The use of the "Marketplace" feature is good. It should be used by Niche, IMO. Then at the very least I believe a transaction on a credit card would afford CCA 1974 protection.

Everything that you've said about rapid costs is further reason why consumers need to be protected. Insolvency is a very real risk.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

thesmileyone said:


> I raised these concerns when the Niche was in development, because I had been scammed on Kickstarter before, got politely told to shut the **** up, and even got threatened with legal action by our resident expert before my post was deleted by an admin.
> 
> Are you even allowed to talk about it without singing it's praises? Nope. (My experience plus any thread started about it in a negative fashion like this one comes with disapproval by loyal customers and people who might be more than just customers cough cough)
> 
> ...


 I was quite concerned about this comment at the time and I think it's nice (and time) to tidy up loose ends. I finally took a look at companies house to see if the information you want is now there. Please look at companies house yourself, please be *inclined*  here is the link so you can see the "truth" https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08566128

I would happily allow a visiting member to have a look at my bank statements, but it would probably lead to accusations that I have secret accounts not disclosed. As for being "more than a customer cough cough". Yes, I was a reviewer, a trusted one at that. Trusted by Niche to tell them what was bad so it could be fixed (which I did) and trusted by the community to give the most accurate information I could about the final state of the prototype prior to Indeigogo launch, which I did.

Niche have sold 1000s of grinders, significant numbers have been in the field for 10 months, I am very pleased I got a chance to review it and feedback on improvements prior to final prototyping manufacture and launch to the benefit of the community. I look back on my* review of the prototype* with some pride that it seems to be performing and delivering the same sort of performance I found during testing with very few teething problems of new production and certainly no major faults. The review is something positive I did....did I get paid, get shares, get commissions, get cash under the table....no I didn't. I asked Niche to make a very small £150 direct donation to a Guinea Pig rescue centre (Charity). *What I did get out of it was the satisfaction that I made a difference in the coffee world and hopefully it will spur manufacturers to make better domestic grinders (unlike some that blow their guts a few times per year) and put a drag on ever rising prices.*

Funnily enough this is the only post I felt was worth making for weeks....especially as the search has been fixed and I can now find the comment to quote.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

DavecUK said:


> I was quite concerned about this comment at the time and I think it's nice (and time) to tidy up loose ends. I finally took a look at companies house to see if the information you want is now there. Please look at companies house yourself, please be *inclined*  here is the link so you can see the "truth" https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08566128
> I would happily allow a visiting member to have a look at my bank statements, but it would probably lead to accusations that I have secret accounts not disclosed. As for being_ "more than a customer cough cough"_. Yes, I was a reviewer, a trusted one at that. Trusted by Niche to tell them what was bad so it could be fixed (which I did) and trusted by the community to give the most accurate information I could about the final state of the prototype prior to Indeigogo launch, which I did.
> Niche have sold 1000s of grinders, significant numbers have been in the field for 10 months, I am very pleased I got a chance to review it and feedback on improvements prior to final prototyping manufacture and launch to the benefit of the community. I look back on my* review of the prototype* with some pride that it seems to be performing and delivering the same sort of performance I found during testing with very few teething problems of new production and certainly no major faults. The review is something positive I did....did I get paid, get shares, get commissions, get cash under the table....no I didn't. I asked Niche to make a very small £150 direct donation to a Guinea Pig rescue centre (Charity). *What I did get out of it was the satisfaction that I made a difference in the coffee world and hopefully it will spur manufacturers to make better domestic grinders (unlike some that blow their guts a few times per year) and put a drag on ever rising prices.*
> Funnily enough this is the only post I felt was worth making for weeks....especially as the search has been fixed and I can now find the comment to quote.


Welcome back Dave.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I was quite concerned about this comment at the time and I think it's nice (and time) to tidy up loose ends. I finally took a look at companies house to see if the information you want is now there. Please look at companies house yourself, please be *inclined*  here is the link so you can see the "truth" https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/08566128
> 
> I would happily allow a visiting member to have a look at my bank statements, but it would probably lead to accusations that I have secret accounts not disclosed. As for being "more than a customer cough cough". Yes, I was a reviewer, a trusted one at that. Trusted by Niche to tell them what was bad so it could be fixed (which I did) and trusted by the community to give the most accurate information I could about the final state of the prototype prior to Indeigogo launch, which I did.
> 
> ...


 Do you happen to know which charity the donation went to?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Do you happen to know which charity the donation went to?


 Strangely enough I do because my wife adopted her Guinea Pigs through them. I personally don't have a huge interest in Guinea Pigs...I'm more of a cat person. In fact, I got the amount wrong it was £172 (because of the very light Nordic roasts I did for testing adding a bit of extra cost).


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Do you happen to know which charity the donation went to?


 I forgot the Link.

https://thislittlepiggyrichmond.webs.com/

It's run by a Mother and daughter, the mother is a Practicing NHS Medical Doctor and does this in her limited spare time as not for profit. I understand she actually spends considerable amounts of her own funds to keep this going.

The donation was for terminally ill animals that require a lot of care and cannot be adopted....this was specifically an area that my wife wanted the money to help in. My wife and I have no financial or other connection to This Little Piggy other than she adopted 2 guinea pigs, paid the fees and my daughter and her has done some voluntary work for them cleaning out cages etc...The receipt from the centre is attached. @coffeechap I am hoping you asked so the next time you sell some grinders or lever machines you can make a small donation, I am sure they would appreciate it.

View attachment This Little Piggy receipt.docx


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## Lilybell2 (May 1, 2017)

I have no clue whether Dave did or did not pay for the Niche grinders. I certainly hope he did not!

I do product testing that is 100% unrelated to anything coffee. This takes quite a lot of time and effort on my part... testing, providing feedback, etc. I do not purchase said products, some of which are considerably costlier than the Niche Zero.

Actually, if my goal was simply to own these products, it would be much cheaper to just purchase them outright as my time, effort and expertise are certainly worth considerably more than the price of the products.


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## RobbieTheTruth (Jun 4, 2019)

Junglebert said:


> It's naive and disingenuous to pretend it doesn't, if someone wants to sound virtuous by saying they had a donation made to a charity in lieu of their fee, and it turns out it's not a charity it's a not for profit their family is connected to, then yes, that's significant.


 In this case, we're not looking some sort of scam that needs the legalities pointed out are we?

He was asked if he got paid and he said he got £170 and donated it to charity. In this context, a guinea pig rescue center is appropriate.

Do you have an underlying concern here? Genuine question - I know little about this situation and the people involved. Are you concerned he's given a positive review in exchange for money/goods?

I've got a Niche and I like it. I get the impression that on the whole, people rate it highly. Has he been disingenuous in the review, in your opinion?

EDIT - it's the first and only grinder I've owned (or even used) so I'm no authority


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## TonyCoffeeNewbie (May 4, 2017)

I am now very concerned and wondered if anyone could recommend legal counsel. 
Back in October I left a positive review for the Niche Zero grinder on the Indiegogo site, and have realised that I have received exactly £0 for the review, all of which I gave to a good cause that was not necessarily registered as a charity, apparently the tax benefit of registering as a charity was not beneficial to the organisation concerned as it receives only small donations.
I understand that some people may take offense at my actions and I apologise. I also understand that people may not value or trust the content of my review. Unfortunately I have not been able to remove the review from Indiegogo, so my honest opinions remain in the public domain.
Once again I apologise for my clearly selfish actions and ask if anyone out of the goodness of their heart can recommend a good lawyer to protect me from the impending litigation.

Thank you

Tony

Sent from my SM-G973F using Tapatalk


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## Lilybell2 (May 1, 2017)

And I ask you, where's Monty Python when you really need 'em? ?


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## GrowlingDog (Apr 10, 2016)

A charity does not need to be registered with the Charity commission in order to call itself a charity as long as its income is less than £5,000 per annum.
You can still register with the Inland Revenue to claim back gift aid on donations whether registered with the Charity commission or not.

A small Guinea Pig rescue could easily fall into this category.


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