# Freezing beans



## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

Now I know it's been discussed previously many times but I need some input guys. I may have over ordered on Black Friday beans. Lol. I have 1.3 kg at present and another 2.5 kg coming my way next week.

So the question is do you guys freeze in 250g bags or how about freezing the 500g bags?

Also how would you defrost it? On the kitchen counter? Overnight? Will they be ok to go into the grinder? Will there be moisture?

All replies appreciated. Cheers

Mark


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

I tape the valve shut and freeze it. Then fully defrost on the side, taped shut and then unseal and use.

I've also decanted into breastmilk bags (hold 200g double sealed) and done the same. I keep sealed until at room temp to avoid moisture getting in.

I have to say it's not as great as fresh. But I've got 5kg coming... Because I have to balance cost and nice, and I reckon defrosted good beans are significantly better than fresh cheap ones.

Others will probably differ in opinion. But for me buying bulk allows me to buy things I couldn't otherwise afford.


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

Missy said:


> I tape the valve shut and freeze it. Then fully defrost on the side, taped shut and then unseal and use.
> 
> I've also decanted into breastmilk bags (hold 200g double sealed) and done the same. I keep sealed until at room temp to avoid moisture getting in.
> 
> ...


Thanks @Missy I'will give it a go this 3.8 kg will last me about 6 weeks. Lol. I'm thinking of freezing about 2 kg.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Yeah I've got 1kg frozen and will stick another 2 in when they come from foundry, bought 2kg of rocko- so freezing one should allow me to make some vague comparison!


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

Missy said:


> Yeah I've got 1kg frozen and will stick another 2 in when they come from foundry, bought 2kg of rocko- so freezing one should allow me to make some vague comparison!


Did you get the black Friday deal? Lol. I went crazy with it. I ordered both Ethiopians and 500g Finca. To make it free postage. Lol


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

Also got the rocko from Jolly Bean 1 kg of it yesterday. Lol


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Yes. Got 1kg of the Nicaraguan and two of the rocko (didn't fancy the other!) Plus the 2kg from coffee compass. I'm probably going to get some from jollybean for the wichteln thing... Good job LSOL is off until new year. But I'm expecting to drink a fair bit over the festive period, and will tote it round when we visit family... Though they have no taste (my FiL returned a bag of coffee to me because he "preferred the stuff they get in Sainsbury")


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

Lol not bought from CC for ages, actually only once if I remember correctly postage price is a bit hefty with £3.95. Lol

I will have to balance the wine and coffee over the festive period. Lol.

My Dad is the same. He doesn't like my coffee as they don't taste like coffee he said.  thanks dad. So he just buys Nescafé from Tesco. Typical. Lol

I'm now down to my last 40 g of Assembly. Can't get enough of it. Great as spro and also brewed. Not too sure on flat white but had to add more milk close to Latte to enjoy it.


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## dlight (Nov 11, 2014)

Why defrost the beans?

Grind them from frozen. The particle size distribution is more consistent for frozen beans vs room temperature beans.

You'd be surprised at the improvement in the distribution in the filter basket. And resultingly in the taste.

Give it a go and let us know how you find the taste.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Problem with that is you have to stick them in 10,00000 tiny pots otherwise going in and out of the freezer they get all moist and icky iirc.


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## dlight (Nov 11, 2014)

I use very small zip lock bags with pre weighed 19g in each. I single dose and get very consistent results. You do, of course, need a grinder that can single dose. I'm using a Compak A8, which wasn't designed to single dose, but a surprisingly good job.


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

dlight said:


> I use very small zip lock bags with pre weighed 19g in each. I single dose and get very consistent results. You do, of course, need a grinder that can single dose. I'm using a Compak A8, which wasn't designed to single dose, but a surprisingly good job.


I might give it a go. I will use my feldgrind for it and i do need to research on the grind settings for espresso. Lol


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

I normally order my mum coffee for her cafetière but get this ground for her. Would ground be ok frozen?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

I've been freezing in large kilner jars and then single dosing directly from them without any problem, you can get in and out before any moisture forms.

if we're honest it's not ideal but it's a decent compromise when you have a glut of beans.

you do need to grind a little coarser though when using frozen as the beans shatter more creating more fines, taste and adjust grind accordingly.

I've also go a couple of 1Kg bags in the freezer....

need to stop buying so many beans!


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

Phobic said:


> I've been freezing in large kilner jars and then single dosing directly from them without any problem, you can get in and out before any moisture forms.
> 
> if we're honest it's not ideal but it's a decent compromise when you have a glut of beans.
> 
> ...


Not gonna be easy with the Black Friday deals popping up. Lol


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

3Kg ordered!


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## dlight (Nov 11, 2014)

Jacko112 said:


> I normally order my mum coffee for her cafetière but get this ground for her. Would ground be ok frozen?


Nope, wouldn't try that. Since the ground coffee would absorb any surrounding odours, I would imagine it would impact the flavour.


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## dlight (Nov 11, 2014)

Phobic said:


> you do need to grind a little coarser though when using frozen as the beans shatter more creating more fines, taste and adjust grind


Actually, you get an more consistent distribution. There was some research done on this in the UK that Matt Perger and others commented on.

The grind appears more fluffy as a result with less fines.

The debate is whether the improved grind distribution offsets any negative affect of freezing the coffee. My taste buds tell me that it does.

The added benefit is that you never have stale coffee ( assuming you consume the frozen beans within a few months). I find the grind setting to be very consistent for each frozen batch. No need to adjust the grind as the beans age.


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## dlight (Nov 11, 2014)

Summary from article from Perger:

"More cold = finer particles = more surface area = higher extraction. Lower temperatures could also mean less evaporation/sublimation of aromatic compounds (aroma loss).

Keep your pre-weighed doses in the freezer for higher, tastier extractions (though make sure they're sealed without too much moisture or any oxygen)."

See:

https://baristahustle.com/grinder-paper-explained/


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Someone mentioned to me that when grinding frozen beans it can be worth increasing brew temperature slightly to compensate for the grinds being cold; could've been @garydyke1


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## mrSpoon (Nov 26, 2016)

I will need to freeze beans having taken advantage of offers over the weekend, I will give grinding from frozen a go and see what happens...


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Phobic said:


> I've been freezing in large kilner jars and then single dosing directly from them without any problem, you can get in and out before any moisture forms.
> 
> if we're honest it's not ideal but it's a decent compromise when you have a glut of beans.
> 
> ...


You'll get better results putting them in a large ziplock bag with the beans spread out evenly. The beans will freeze/defrost quicker negating the chance of freezer burn.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

dlight said:


> Actually, you get an more consistent distribution. There was some research done on this in the UK that Matt Perger and others commented on.
> 
> The grind appears more fluffy as a result with less fines.


not heard this before, do you have a link?


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

ashcroc said:


> You'll get better results putting them in a large ziplock bag with the beans spread out evenly. The beans will freeze/defrost quicker negating the chance of freezer burn.


not had any freezer burn in the kilner so far, and it's far more convenient than a bag


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## dlight (Nov 11, 2014)

Phobic said:


> not heard this before, do you have a link?


Summary from article from Perger:

"More cold = finer particles = more surface area = higher extraction. Lower temperatures could also mean less evaporation/sublimation of aromatic compounds (aroma loss).

Keep your pre-weighed doses in the freezer for higher, tastier extractions (though make sure they're sealed without too much moisture or any oxygen)."

See:

https://baristahustle.com/grinder-paper-explained/


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## Groovemaster (Dec 1, 2016)

Hey,

Just signed up with this subject in mind! Im looking at shifting from supermarket beans to fresh roasted but as anything long term cost could be an issue.

I was thinking about buying a batch and freezing but most sources say the taste will deteriorate pretty drastically but here Im hearing otherwise so I may give it a go









Would you lot favour towards freezing single portions to defrosting say a weeks worth then?

cheers


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

It's a bit of debate.

Some people freeze a 250g bag, defrost sealed and then use.

I know guys on here that freeze individual shots (18g dose)and grind straight from frozen.

Whenever I've done it I've used sealed mini click lock tubs no more than 80g and use with in 2-3 days.

Give it a try and see what you think.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

dlight said:


> Actually, you get an more consistent distribution. There was some research done on this in the UK that Matt Perger and others commented on.
> 
> The grind appears more fluffy as a result with less fines.


that's not how I read the article, *more *fines are produced.



> As the coffee gets cooler it also becomes more brittle, throwing off many more tiny particles in the grinder.


no mention in here about a more consistent distribution, though you could infer looking at the graphs the there's a narrower distribution which as we know is generally a good thing.

Do you mean consistent? do you mean more even distribution through the particle sizes? or do you mean repeatability? or something else? Logically I'd buy into that rationale on repeatability, however that's not what I think this test set out to prove.



dlight said:


> Summary from article from Perger:
> 
> "More cold = finer particles = more surface area = higher extraction. Lower temperatures could also mean less evaporation/sublimation of aromatic compounds (aroma loss).
> 
> ...


that's just why you need to grind coarser than you would at room temp when you freeze to achieve the same result, or am I missing something?


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

A question for those who freeze, do you let them rest before freezing or just freeze them as soon as they arrive?


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

Craig-R872 said:


> A question for those who freeze, do you let them rest before freezing or just freeze them as soon as they arrive?


I've tried it both ways and not noticed a difference, so now I rest them first as it's easier to get the timing right.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

personally I rest them 1st then freeze. when they're ready I tend to dial them in and drink a bit then freeze, then I know roughly what settings are needed so I can single dose grind from frozen.


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## eusty (Dec 6, 2016)

I used to freeze mine, but read that it wasn't the best thing to do as when defrosting the beans absorb moisture. I wish I could remember where I read it!

What I do now is just buy enough to last for 2/3 weeks (0.5kg) and keep it sealed and cool.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

They can't absorb moisture if they are sealed....


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## eusty (Dec 6, 2016)

Missy said:


> They can't absorb moisture if they are sealed....


Ah I see, you seal them in a tight fitting bag and only defrost them a bag at a time?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Personally I leave them in the bag they came in with the valve taped. Or occasionally into 200g lots in breastmilk bags which have a double seal and yes defrost fully before opening.


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## Craig-R872 (Apr 4, 2016)

Thanks for the info folks! I have some of raves zip lock valved bags I think I will decant into these tape up the valve and freeze. (Once rested).


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## dlight (Nov 11, 2014)

I don't defrost the deans. Just single dose while frozen. No risk of absorbing anything that way. And the grind comes out beautifully fluffy. No need to adjust the grind, since the beans don't age while frozen.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I do not know if you can still get them, but we always used to find buying special bags then vacuum packing them worked a treat. Straight from roasting, then the beans release gas, you suck it out. When eventually they stop releasing anything, they are rested. But I do not think you can get the gear we used to use. perhaps @DavecUK can comment


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I do not know if you can still get them, but we always used to find buying special bags then vacuum packing them worked a treat. Straight from roasting, then the beans release gas, you suck it out. When eventually they stop releasing anything, they are rested. But I do not think you can get the gear we used to use. perhaps @DavecUK can comment


I pack my roasts completely differently now. I have a few 100 pounds worth of heat seal + zip lock 500g 1 way valve bags sitting in the workshop but I no longer use the. In fact I might try and sell some of them. Over the years I have been experimenting with many different methods of keeping/packaging roasted coffee and I am convinced that the 1 way valve although necessary in some situations is not really desirable.

1. My tests over the years have demonstrated that coffee does produce CO2 after roasting, this CO2 is not trapped within the bean (well not in any significant quantity), it's definitely produced after the roast. A small amount is produced by the reactions that continue for a while, but this amount is not large and in the absence of any significant partial pressure of Oxygen, it quickly reduces to quite a low level. The initial amount is also heavily dependent on how much air is in the bag at the moment you seal it up.

2. The one way valves are not always a perfect seal in terms of allowing air back in the bag and coffee packed in a 1 way valve bag usually produces much more CO2 gas after roasting. it's rare that these 1 way valves (even the good Wico ones in my bags) give a perfect seal. *As CO2 is mostly the product of the action of Oxygen on the beans, less CO2 production (I hate the term "degassing") can only be a good thing.*

3. *I personally believe (not based on any more evidence than my senses and a feeling)* that 1 way valve allows volatiles to be lost. I'm not sure though and it could be almost a "marinading effect" that I am experiencing in my current packaging method.

I pack now in 8" x 10" (WxD) Food safe Poly bags of 200 Gauge (100 gauge is too thin and not suitable). I seal them completely using a 300mm impulse heat sealer (only cost me £18-20) and if you are careful, you can expel most of the air before sealing.

P.S. Annoyingly even those vacuum bags you reffered to leaked, either from brand new, or after using them a few times. e.g. they would go from a relatively firmish brick to floppy. I also never freeze the beans. Usually I leave them outside in the workshop.


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## Phobic (Aug 17, 2016)

interesting read Dave, makes a lot of sense.

less oxygen = less CO2, and volatile loss via CO2, both plausible in my mind.

I wonder if flushing the bag with nitrogen might produce some interesting results - don't know a great deal about the practicalities of if but know it's used in the food industry, particularly meat packaging.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Freezing beans keeps popping up on the Forum. An interesting item on the Barista Hustle blog:

"While Chris (along with Maxwell Colonna-Dashwood, Matt, and a bunch of other humans) focused their ground-breaking paper on grinding physics, it's the freezing beans aspect that's gaining attention. Helped by George Howell's efforts with freezing green, Hendon's own speech on cryogenics and coffee at Re;Co, and Kyle Ramage using frozen beans on the way to winning the USBC title - freezing beans is starting to look very cool &#8230;

For those just catching on the #freezebeansnotpeas protocol is fairly straightforward: vacuum seal your beans then freeze them (don't just throw the bag into the freezer!). The benefits are becoming pretty hard to ignore.

Storage is a big one; the colder you go the slower the staling process. Most domestic freezers get down to around -18°C, almost stopping that process completely. As Chris says, you're essentially taking a snapshot of that coffee at the state it went into the freezer. Added bonus: you get more fines (mo' fines, mo' flavor) along with a known grind profile; so dial in once, write down your settings, and they'll stay virtually the same next week, next month, or next year!

So once more for those at the back: #freezebeansnotpeas."

And the link is here


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

That's the first time I've seen the suggestion that "more fines" is a good thing. I was under the impression that the better grinders produced less fines, and that's also the idea behind those graded sieves (can't remember the name) from kickstarter. I'm confused


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

gcogger said:


> That's the first time I've seen the suggestion that "more fines" is a good thing. I was under the impression that the better grinders produced less fines, and that's also the idea behind those graded sieves (can't remember the name) from kickstarter. I'm confused


Fines are inevitable, so many particles at either end of the spectrum (boulders & fines) makes for an uneven distribution and lower/less even extraction. The finer you grind the more the boulders are replaced with fines, in the context of weight, or volume of grind produced. The EK has been known for some time to produce a lot of fines, but it also tends to have a smaller average size for espresso. No one is known to be producing espresso from a grind with no fines, the secondary ~50um fines peak (bimodal) is seen as an integral part of making espresso.

In the linked paper Colonna-Dashwood, Hendon et al are looking at the surface are of the grind & the particle count, instead of % weight, or % volume (laser diffraction can typically show particle count, surface area & volume - volume are the charts we are most used to seeing from grinder manufacturers). This shifts the focus of the distribution to a much lower average to, say 15um for count instead of 230um for % volume. So, whilst 15um may be seen as "fines" from one view, the increase in particle count ~10um is more like the meat of the normal distribution from a particle count perspective.

Fines are a problem if a lot get in your drink and flatten it off, or grinding too fine overall reduces your extraction yield out of a preferred region.

Kruve is a bunch of sieves (good value & easy to use), but you can use them to remove what you want. I don't remove any fines from drip brews as it speeds up flow rate, meaning you have to have a totally new approach & as yet, I haven't improved a drip brew by removing fines. I do remove them from immersions for a cleaner sweeter brew.

A lot of the 'evils of fines' suggestions seem to be based on assumption, not practice.


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