# Favourite Beans for Espresso only



## big dan (Apr 11, 2012)

Hello everyone!

I see a lot of posts about blends that are good in milk etc but I thought I would start a thread where we could share our favourite beans or blends for straight espresso only.

What are your favourite beans right now? Wha sort of flavours are getting in the cup?

Recently I have been using Ndimanii AA from both Square Mile and Smokey Barn, really strong black currant fruit flavours and great mouthfeel. Although I must admit to liking fruit bomb style coffees.

Would love to hear some recommendations on more traditional espresso styles as I have found a lot of beans I have tried recently have really punched well through milk but in an espresso have been just too strong and bitter (of course this could be my technique or equipment failing me!)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

If you love fruit as an espresso the rave yirgachef is really funky and fruity and definitely an espresso based bean


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## GaryatGala (Nov 10, 2013)

Yiiiiiiiirgachef for me.

Roasted to a lighter than espresso roast at medium brown to highlight origin characters like elderberry, it's my fav.

Second fav was a Guatamala La Bosa.

Third fav is the Ethiopian Sidamo.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Whilst blends are often 'safe' and easy to handle I could name any number of SO's to be honest. Its the journey of exploration which floats my boat. Im looking forward to dialling in Colombia, Finca La Chorrera, Washed Caturra later today.

Oh and Honduras, Finca Cerro Azul, Washed Caturra is back. The cherry-cola coffee which was one of my faves from last year!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Yirgacheffe for me too . From my local currently ( j atkinsons ) , fruit bomb to the bottom of the cup .


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## big dan (Apr 11, 2012)

Thanks guys will check out the suggestions! Intrigued by the cherry cola Honduras Gary, will be ordering that or maybe i will be lucky and I will get it in my next subscription from Hasbean!

And it's good to have single origins as well as blends! My only issue currently is until my Rocket & new grinder arrives some difficult beans have been hard for me to get consistently drinkable! So forgiveness factor is definitely an issue at the moment!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

It has to be said that looking at Ben Kaminsky's research most people dont like their coffee because a) they are poorly extracting it ''we want a darker roast'' or b) they extract it properly & its too roasty ''we want a lighter roast''


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> It has to be said that looking at Ben Kaminsky's research most people dont like their coffee because a) they are poorly extracting it ''we want a darker roast'' or b) they extract it properly & its too roasty ''we want a lighter roast''


So people don't like light coffee coz there used to piling it with sugar ? and a lot of shops can't make it properly. Massive surprise ......


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> It has to be said that looking at Ben Kaminsky's research most people dont like their coffee because a) they are poorly extracting it ''we want a darker roast'' or b) they extract it properly & its too roasty ''we want a lighter roast''


Or maybe thats just the tastes of the people he surveyed and not an actual true representation of peoples tastes, I know I have struggled getting people I know who say they like a good cup of coffee (i.e not high st chains) to understand that coffee can taste of things other than coffee. I think maybe more education is needed but not a blanket anointing of one person as the Messiah of coffee.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I wouldnt have said anyone has appointed him the Messiah of coffee, is there anyone else bothering to do the research? Do the Refractometers lie?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I wouldnt have said anyone has appointed him the Messiah of coffee, is there anyone else bothering to do the research? Do the Refractometers lie?


He's not the messiah , he's a very naughty boy.....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> He's not the messiah , he's a very naughty boy.....


naughty?? Oooh I love a good gossip, come on spill the beans


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I wouldnt have said anyone has appointed him the Messiah of coffee, is there anyone else bothering to do the research? Do the Refractometers lie?


I come from a working background that uses one of primary senses i.e. hearing to experience the work I do and over time there has been the same sort of debate about how to set up and tune a PA system to a room , anything from a small concert hall or theatre up to arenas and stadiums. The debate was about measurement versus "art" and experience, systems that were set up just using the measurement systems alone generally speaking were not that pleasant to listen to, and systems set up by "ear" alone were not perfect either apart from the location occupied whilst setting it up, the most successful approach which is now universally used is a synthesis of both. I think this debate applies equally to making coffee, do we go " by the numbers" and just use measurements or a little of both and use some measurement and our own built in sampling and analysis device- our sense of taste. The issue with relying purely on measurements is: the methodology of obtaining the measurements and then the interpretation of the data which can be skewed in order to prove your own point. We all know the famous quote about there being lies,damned lies and statistics.

Ben Kaminsky is very obviously a very intelligent human being, he does,however, have an agenda in publishing all these articles and papers that make him seem to be in some eyes the latest greatest thing to happen in coffee as he gets paid rather a lot for the seminars he conducts so needs to be seen to make breakthroughs.

One thing I was taught by one of the guys that got me into being a sound engineer was " it doesn't matter what the meters say if it sounds good it is good" and the same applies to coffee if it tastes good to you it is good.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> He's not the messiah , he's a very naughty boy.....


Ah it was you that picked up his sandal.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> It has to be said that looking at Ben Kaminsky's research most people dont like their coffee because a) they are poorly extracting it ''we want a darker roast'' or b) they extract it properly & its too roasty ''we want a lighter roast''


The issue for me is

a) lighter roasts are extracted poorly more often than darker given they are harder to work with

b) people dont know what they want and receiving a lighter roast with flavours other than "coffee" confuses them


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Indeed, point taken . But grinders ARE shite . Nobody is happy in the industry with grinders .

Better grinders mean better extraction , which in turn means roasters don't have to feck around roast profiles for the sake of espressos failings .

When I first got an espresso machine I couldn't extract anything properly , I turned to darker roasts, yes they were easier . X years later and many thousands of shots down the line I now consider any roast flavours a roasting defect and any poor sour / tangy extractions as my fault because they are not present in the cupping bowl !


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

forzajuve said:


> The issue for me is
> 
> a) lighter roasts are extracted poorly more often than darker given they are harder to work with
> 
> b) people dont know what they want and receiving a lighter roast with flavours other than "coffee" confuses them


But none of this means that lighter roasts are the only "correct" way or that darker roasts are either. Its all down to an individuals tastes. What galls me is that some people( not meaning anyone in particular) come across as meaning that the only way to roast coffee is a lighter roast and if you don't like or appreciate this, then you are some sort of philistine, I know that when I 1st started lurking here and round a couple of other coffee related sub forums then the general opinion appeared to be that if you didn't like Hasbean then you were a philistine.

At the end of the day I couldn't give a rats ass about the TDS and extraction yield etc of a cup of coffee as long as it tastes good.

I'll use another example from the audio world, it's a widely held fact that Valve based audio equipment sounds "better" or more pleasing to the ear than solid state equipment yet based on measurement alone valve equipment has nothing to recommend it as it modifies the waveforms rather than just transparently transmitting it, its also heavier and less efficient too. The fact is though, valve based gear adds even order harmonics logarithmically to the sound which are more pleasing to the ear as this conforms to the way we hear, whereas solid state gear passes both even and odd order harmonics and its the odd order harmonics that sound harsh and dissonant to the human ear.

All this said both approaches have their uses and places, I wouldn't like to even attempt to run a stadium gig's sound system on valve amps it would be wildly impractical lol.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Indeed, point taken . But grinders ARE shite . Nobody is happy in the industry with grinders .
> 
> Better grinders mean better extraction , which in turn means roasters don't have to feck around roast profiles for the sake of espressos failings .
> 
> When I first got an espresso machine I couldn't extract anything properly , I turned to darker roasts, yes they were easier . X years later and many thousands of shots down the line I now consider any roast flavours a roasting defect and any poor sour / tangy extractions as my fault because they are not present in the cupping bowl !


Gary you were once onto dark side ..............I can't quite take this in................. Surely you can ever return from the dark side

Sometimes a roast profile isn't to an individuals palate ( tangy etc ) tho and you can play with extradition to dilute and concentrate where you think fits ?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Charliej said:


> But none of this means that lighter roasts are the only "correct" way or that darker roasts are either. Its all down to an individuals tastes. What galls me is that some people( not meaning anyone in particular) come across as meaning that the only way to roast coffee is a lighter roast and if you don't like or appreciate this, then you are some sort of philistine, I know that when I 1st started lurking here and round a couple of other coffee related sub forums then the general opinion appeared to be that if you didn't like Hasbean then you were a philistine.
> 
> *At the end of the day I couldn't give a rats ass about the TDS and extraction yield etc of a cup of coffee as long as it tastes good.*
> 
> ...


But if the two were co-dependant then you would want to know how to correct the TDS/% to make it taste good?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Indeed, point taken . But grinders ARE shite . Nobody is happy in the industry with grinders .
> 
> Better grinders mean better extraction , which in turn means roasters don't have to feck around roast profiles for the sake of espressos failings .
> 
> When I first got an espresso machine I couldn't extract anything properly , I turned to darker roasts, yes they were easier . X years later and many thousands of shots down the line I now consider any roast flavours a roasting defect and any poor sour / tangy extractions as my fault because they are not present in the cupping bowl !


Gary,

The implication of what you have written above is that anything that is roasted on the darker side is defective and therefore inferior, rather than it just down to being lighter roasts are to your taste and darker ones aren't.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> He's not the messiah , he's a very naughty boy.....


Lovely spam, wonderful spam

Lovely spam, wonderful spam

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Spam

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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yes some coffees are tangy, coffee is afterall acidic, very low PH !

If crap grinders are enhancing the negatives of my coffee then simply covering up the tang with ashy roast favours is robbing Peter to pay Paul, I dont want those flavours, I would rather someone present me with a better grinder.

If its very tangy/salty/sour then I admit its my fault a lot of the time


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Gary,
> 
> The implication of what you have written above is that anything that is roasted on the darker side is defective and therefore inferior, rather than it just down to being lighter roasts are to your taste and darker ones aren't.


The implication of what you have written is that all dark roasts have a roast flavour.

I dont think anyone is saying that lighter is better than darker, more that the increase in lighter roast profiles has brought more science to the table given that they are more difficult to extract. Oh and that grinders haven't evolved since day 0 bar electronic timers, but we all know that.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Gary,
> 
> The implication of what you have written above is that anything that is roasted on the darker side is defective and therefore inferior, rather than it just down to being lighter roasts are to your taste and darker ones aren't.


To me yes, for my palate. I dont want my coffee to taste roasty. I dont like my wine over-oaked and my beer over hopped. Coffee isnt naturally roasty.

Any roast flavour is an addition made by a roaster. Its the roasters job to develop the beans natural sugars, caramels.

If you like coffee to have roasty elements imparted into it then thats absolutely fine by me.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

forzajuve said:


> The implication of what you have written is that all dark roasts have a roast flavour.
> 
> I dont think anyone is saying that lighter is better than darker, more that the increase in lighter roast profiles has brought more science to the table given that they are more difficult to extract. Oh and that grinders haven't evolved since day 0 bar electronic timers, but we all know that.


Green coffee tastes rank, charcoal taste rank. Do we all agree on that?

If a dark roast only adds a roasty flavour over and above a medium roast then yes that to me is a defect.

If a coffee tastes green/underdeveloped at a light-medium and should have been taken to medium to be balanced then yes that is also a defect.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

It all depends on how far either way.

I have had some "dark" roasts that have not tasted roasty, which I agree is not a flavour that should be there. However, for my taste they were lacking in flavour that in my experience you only get with a lighter roast.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> But if the two were co-dependant then you would want to know how to correct the TDS/% to make it taste good?


Yes, but as I don't own and don't intend to own a refractometer I will continue to do as I have done for a long time, measure in and out aiming for 1.6 times input to gauge the output and if I'm not happy with the result trying different recipes, levels of grind and baskets etc to get to the taste I like, in much the same way as anyone else here. I don't need to know an absolute TDS value for an individual cup of coffee made by whatever method to know whether I like it or not.

Forzajuve, I can't see anywhere I have made the implication that all darker roasts have a "roasty" flavour, although the darker a bean is roasted the more elements of this are likely to be present

Gary we can all agree on the 1st part of your last post, but I have a question for you, would you rather drink an aged whisky or one of the new clear spirit drinks a lot of distilleries seem to be making now, do you like peaty flavours in a single malt as this and the aging process and what barrels are used for this are all flavours added by the distiller.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

There is single varietal , terroir-based whisky??









I dont like peaty flavoured, no, although I occasionally like a carefully-handled smoked-malt beer, so long as it is in balance with sweetness of the malts.

Its not like we have to make the whiskey ourselves tho, right?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Yes, but as I don't own and don't intend to own a refractometer I will continue to do as I have done for a long time, measure in and out aiming for 1.6 times input to gauge the output and if I'm not happy with the result trying different recipes, levels of grind and baskets etc to get to the taste I like, in much the same way as anyone else here. I don't need to know an absolute TDS value for an individual cup of coffee made by whatever method to know whether I like it or not.


I do exactly the same but there comes a point where the equipment your using is the limiting factor in getting the best out of the coffee.

The best thing to do is cup the coffee, if there are defects to be found then you'll find 'em


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

If somebody tells you what tastes nice to them, the one thing you can't do is tell them they are wrong.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> There is single varietal , terroir-based whisky??
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if we made the whisky ourselves we would be asking for trouble lol.

I would say that all the different styles of single malt have their own terroir of sorts from the areas they come from whether its heavily peaty, smoky Islay malt with a tang of the sea in it to a light,bright and fruity Speyside.

Beer made with smoked malt sounds very intriguing, have you got any recommendations for one of these, I'm kind of well out of touch with the market for good beers as it's been so long since I've able to drink alcohol and have kind of decided on a "sod that" sort of basis that a very occasional good beer slowly sipped can't do me that much harm other than making me sleep in combination with my meds.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I'll have a dig through the archives and post a list of good smoked beers


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I'll have a dig through the archives and post a list of good smoked beers


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

This is down to pallet and likes/dislikes as always.

I am opposite to you gary, i love oakey Chardonays, Big Cabernets/Malbecs, peaty whisky (isla) and dark roasted coffee. I bet you love Sauvignon Blanc.

I do like some lighter roasted coffees and some Pouilly Fume's but not many.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I wouldnt have said anyone has appointed him the Messiah of coffee, is there anyone else bothering to do the research? Do the Refractometers lie?


The research appears to be feedback from coffee professionals, who recognise that their espresso, whilst good by regular standards, isn't perhaps delivering what it perhaps could, nor delivering consistently.

Generally now, not to Gary specifically...

The refractometer, as long as you follow good procedure, just tells you the concentration, the software tells you how that translates as yield - the big driver of flavour...whatever the brew method. You're still free to find & identify your own regions of interest. But, what I am finding, is that whatever your brew method, if it has a significant & common effect on your brews, it is because you are falling short somewhere - if a brewer imparts a personality on your brew, in terms of flavour...something is wrong. Brewers should affect concentration (TDS) & mouthfeel (from filtering mediums) but the coffee itself should be recognisable. Trouble is, with the changes in strength & filtering etc, it gets hard to get a consistent & objective parameter by which to judge...this is where the refractometer really helps.

The refractometer & tasting approaches are not mutually exclusive, nor conflicting approaches, they are the same thing (CharlieJ - think tuning frequency by a tuner vs ear, some can do both, even so the more accurate you want to be the more likely you will have a good tuner, likewise amplifier characteristics vs bias & voltage - I have matched valves by ear, within reason...then checked with a meter for confirmation). Most people will prefer ideally extracted coffee (sweet, balanced, lacking in defects/malfunctions)...but some brewers make hitting this region hard....like SO coffees, brewed as espresso with short brew ratios. That's not to say that there is only one point where a coffee will taste good...but your brew method may itself, make hitting alternative points harder.

I don't make much espresso, but regarding brewed, when the coffee hits my preferred point of extraction by taste & I test it with the refractometer, the readings confirm what my palate tells me every time to within +/- 0.5% extraction yield, or 0.02%TDS (for a given protocol)...this makes it easier to be consistent. It doesn't mean that every coffee I make is perfect...but you recognise what is wrong with it by taste & it follows the numbers for a given defect.

I read people saying they don't like this coffee, or that coffee....fine - as with wine, whisky, beer, ice-cream, whatever....we all have preferences, but those preferences should be judged on these things when they are presented in a representative state. When someone says that the coffee is sour, grassy, objectionally bitter, acrid, then these things suggest that this is not the case. May be the roast, brew method, or a combination of the two... more usually in brewed it's us, not the bean.

Whether or not Kamisky's regime & the EK43 (I believe it was Scott Rao who was first to comment on the grinder's possibilities, though it had been around for some time even then) are the only way forward...who knows? But it's good that it's being discussed, perhaps alternative methodologies will emerge/evolve.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Spukey said:


> This is down to pallet and likes/dislikes as always.
> 
> I am opposite to you gary, i love oakey Chardonays, Big Cabernets/Malbecs, peaty whisky (isla) and dark roasted coffee. I bet you love Sauvignon Blanc.
> 
> I do like some lighter roasted coffees and some Pouilly Fume's but not many.


Not huge fan of sauv blanc really , unless it's with the right dish . Love big red wines , with juicy acidity


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> Not huge fan of sauv blanc really , unless it's with the right dish . Love big red wines , with juicy acidity


I don't let food complicate the issue, wine alone and a few bottles of it so i can get the notes just right haha


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Getting a craving to pop a bottle now


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

I have had to ban mid week bottles as they were getting out of hand. I have a bottle of Masi Ameroni that is going to get dealt with at the weekend, now thats a big red!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Amarone is indeed lovely


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

MWJB said:


> The research appears to be feedback from coffee professionals, who recognise that their espresso, whilst good by regular standards, isn't perhaps delivering what it perhaps could, nor delivering consistently.
> 
> Generally now, not to Gary specifically...
> 
> ...


Mark,

Yours is the kind of methodology I was referring to as a synthesis of both methods i.e. using the measurements to confirm what your taste buds or ears are telling you, but this still relies on collecting and interpreting the data correctly, with anything that provokes a response based on personal tastes we can't simply dismiss one individuals preference over another's simply because their taste does not conform to what would be a generally agreed set of measurements. A good example here is when working with American sound engineers as the PA system engineer is they have a marked preference for a huge hump in low frequency response of the system and often overspec the number of subs needed for a venue. I have always considered that setting up an audio system is an art of compromise as with current technology it is not possible to have exactly the same sound at all audience positions so you have to consider the best way to achieve this compromise with the least hit in quality I guess a bit like a decent coffeeshop should be doing in order to raise standards rather than just churning out any old crap and saying that will do, whereas we are more akin to the home hi fi buff, but hopefully less inclined to believe in snake oil and mysticism to improve our systems( this includes anyone trying to tell you cable that will pass audio waveforms is directional), but we do like to tinker and improve our drinking experience but the trick here is recognising where and when this pursuit of perfection becomes a zero sum game for you.

I don't think that every man jack of us needs to run off and buy an extract mojo in order to make good enjoyable coffee and I think that even if we did people will still make massive mistakes as they are either not collecting or interpreting the data properly. I appreciate that the process of making the coffee is part of the fun for all of us, we only differ in how deep we wish to get into the process, as with all things some people are bound to get lost in the numbers and stop trusting their own senses, I've seen this thousands of times across the world where a house technician/engineer has purchased a measurement device or software and assured me he has measured and set up the system within an inch of its life and the system has sounded appalling due to mismanagement of the data or not understanding properly what is being measured and learning not to trust their ears without realising this is happening.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Mark,
> 
> Yours is the kind of methodology I was referring to as a synthesis of both methods i.e. using the measurements to confirm what your taste buds or ears are telling you, but this still relies on collecting and interpreting the data correctly, with anything that provokes a response based on personal tastes we can't simply dismiss one individuals preference over another's simply because their taste does not conform to what would be a generally agreed set of measurements.
> 
> I don't think that every man jack of us needs to run off and buy an extract mojo in order to make good enjoyable coffee and I think that even if we did people will still make massive mistakes as they are either not collecting or interpreting the data properly .


These are both good points, but with respect to the first, we need to assess those personal tastes on a level playing field, or at an equivalent datum...brew ratios and extraction time do not guarantee this.

No we don't all need to go and buy refractometers, but consider that there are folks who may never have made a coffee that may be considered "ideal"...the best cup they have made may be the best of a non-optimal bunch. Coffee is enjoyable & good over a range of yields (with a few troughs in between the peaks), but access to a refractometer or an ideal brew can be enlightening...but it's a double edged sword too, when you realise that you're no longer happy with what you once considered reasonable and good.

Like you say, a balance between sensory skills, common sense & meter readings is essential...I have lost count of the number of would be amp techs who probe an amp and make panicked posts about all their voltages being high & how do they "fix" it (you don't, the schem you're looking at was drawn 50yrs ago when wall voltages were 10-15% lower than today, you like the sound of the amp precisely because the voltages are "wrong").

FWIW I don't believe in directional aligned grain in esoteric instrument & interconnect cables either...but I know cable construction does impact on sound at the front end especially in hi-z applications (not just with respect to capacitance per foot, but that's a fair starting point), but some cables use a drain wire for the common connection, plus a shield connected at one end & this usually has to be grounded at the chassis to to eliminate hum. Speaker cables? Just use nice thick wire, next to eff all difference.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

MWJB said:


> No we don't all need to go and buy refractometers, but consider that there are folks who may never have made a coffee that may be considered "ideal"...the best cup they have made may be the best of a non-optimal bunch.


For me this is point that has tried to be made. We all have different tastes, that is a given. But how do you know what your tastes are if they are not being tested against a standard or optimum benchmark. People often say that light roasts are sour or dark roasts are bitter, neither is true if extracted correctly. The biggest step forward in my coffee world was dialling in to what the coffee should taste like and then determining whether personally that was what I liked or not. If you don't know what you are aiming for then it becomes a minefield of technique and technology questions.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Let keep the 'what ifs' going.

The numbers seem to show the professionals are struggling to extract coffee properly (dunno how home users are meant to then) in part due to grinders being rubbish, grinder companies geared towards commodity not specialty. Mazzer response was eye-opening.

So if grinders are 'fixed' and allow us to start extracting properly then roasters might be called upon to change their roast profiles as suddenly coffee which tasted bad due to X now tastes bad due to Y.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If grinders are crap & there being no immediate solution, don't we have to make do, then look at other routes to tackling the problem?

Are grinders crap, or do we make them worse by fiddling with them constantly, rather than finding a sweet spot (least fines at the finest reasonable grind) & adjusting technique to suit? (Hypothetical - in a commercial environment, same beans, lots of shots, keeping everything the same & adjusting the grinder makes sense, but does it follow as the best route for the home brewer?).

The "solution" to a problem, usually just changes the problem...

To the Italians it must seem to a degree that the specialty coffee fraternity have made a rod for their own backs?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MWJB said:


> The "solution" to a problem, usually just changes the problem...


Thats progress


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

But really, are grinders that crap!! Doesn't that depend on what you are prepared to pay


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The industry recognises they are crap, all they do is moan. Its pretty clear advances in their design have been relatively slow. There hasnt been the financial motivation.

Movements this year towards cooled grinders (Mazzer) , heated grinders (N.Simonelli!), modified huge flat-burred grinders (EK43) are all in a bid for consistancy of both dose & grind.

For consistancy of dose - single-dosing is great, home baristas have been raving about it for years , zero waste, zero retention. However shots tend to under-extract, so we grind finer to compensate and make even more fines, so we change recipe, then the acidity & mouthfeel isnt right. The EK43 fixes this , right? Well maybe - but the system cannot keep up with a busy shop (3FE). Home use = yes please, however the thing is just too big, has static issues, requires an aftermarket dial for grind settings, and, you need a bloody jam-funnel.

For consistancy of grind (ie regarding fines) the EK also romps home, I dont think anyone will argue there. If you want a full-hopper and a timer the EK isnt your answer, youre back to the Robur, oh and 20g of grind retention which becomes rather expensive to your business when you need to change the grind setting several times a day....and you have fines again

Apologies for thinking outloud , after the week ive had im in the mood for bringing it on today!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> The industry recognises they are crap, all they do is moan. Its pretty clear advances in their design have been relatively slow. There hasnt been the financial motivation.
> 
> Movements this year towards cooled grinders (Mazzer) , heated grinders (N.Simonelli!), modified huge flat-burred grinders (EK43) are all in a bid for consistancy of both dose & grind.
> 
> ...


Don't forget also the non standard burrs for espresso use in the EK43


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yeah , the turkish ones required possibly


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Yeah , the turkish ones required possibly


They ain't cheap.......£100 plus I think


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

More like 300 plus


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> More like 300 plus


Yipes.............


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