# The Rocket gets even better!!



## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

OK - I'm the one who always says that I don't need a dual boiler.

But I could be tempted by this......

http://blog.seattlecoffeegear.com/2012/05/16/crew-review-rocket-espresso-r58-dual-boiler/


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Literally just watched the review. Such a nice machine but to be honest I'd prefer the PID on the machine.

Love the huge steam and water valves.


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

mmmmm

Another review...






Just got an old coffee tin and put a tenner in it.....thats my R58 fund started.

Guessing its gonna be expensive though looks to be about $400 dollors more expensive than the Evoluzione on the US websites.


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

And another vid exposing its internals!






Sadly it's unlikely I could afford one.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Gosh! Those internals! Lots of wires in the middle of some very high temperatures. Wonder if it's getting just a little too complicated?

Sent via Tapatalk


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

It looks wonderful. I'm lusting after it.

From this site, if you are VAT registered (I am) you can get it for about £1420, shipped.

Which is still a lot of money, but...


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I sent Claudette at Bella Barista an email to see if they'll be stocking it at any point. I'm weighing up a duetto purchase in the next few months but if this comes in cheaper (even if it's only £100 cheaper) then it will definitely be worth a look.

I've just had a reply from Claudette (as I was writing) saying this:

"I have an R58 coming any day. It's going to be considerably dearer than the Duetto and until it's here and we've run a few tests, it's going to be difficult to give it a comparison. We are also currently testing a Quickmill twin boiler and I've also just been told that ECM are also producing a twin boiler but they haven't given me a launch date. Up to now, the Duetto still seems to be the winner but I still have to give the R58 a go."

Although the R58 might be a slightly prettier machine, I think I'll probably still end up with a duetto but I'd also be interested to find out about the Quickmill and ECM.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I dont like the PID being a plug-in & with no offset , you have to calculate and calibrate it yourself. Sexy machine tho..other than the stupidly small drip tray. Still want a rotary pump one day


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Rocket provide a booklet showing the precise temp that you should receive at the grouphead (have a look at the WholeLatteLove video - I think it was in there) but I agree it would be nice to have an offset so you can see what it's currently set to. I guess they aren't expecting it to be connected all the time so you only really need to worry when you're making a change.

I also like the 1.7l steam boiler and 1.4kW element - although in the US you can only have one boiler on at a time - I would hope in the UK that they would allow both.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> I sent Claudette at Bella Barista an email to see if they'll be stocking it at any point. I'm weighing up a duetto purchase in the next few months but if this comes in cheaper (even if it's only £100 cheaper) then it will definitely be worth a look.
> 
> I've just had a reply from Claudette (as I was writing) saying this:
> 
> ...


Are you secretly loaded? The Duetto is just too much money for something that I would realistically only use a couple of times a day. How are you justifying this? Explain so I may learn from your wisdom!


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Definitely not secretly loaded! My justification: I have £1100ish in dslr and lenses sat on top of my wardrobe that I'm planning to sell as it doesn't get any use really at the moment. The rest I would probably save up over a few months.

I'm only going to spend £1000+ if it's the machine I'm going to be happy with for the next 7-10 years so it's going to have to be a carefully crafted decision!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

This is similar to my justification for getting the Evoluzione. Saving up over a few months combined with some inheritance coming my way soon. It's not like I'll miss the money I never had in the first place. May as well get something nice with it.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

I'm sorely tempted. The Expobar Dual Leva does much the same for a lot less but, well, it's just not a Rocket, is it?

I think we have to be honest, part of the appeal is not so much the coffee it makes (although that is, of course, crucial) but playing with beautifully engineered, hand-made machines, when so much around us is mass-produced crap.

And compared to the cost of a car, or even a decent hi-fi system - well, what a bargain!


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Yeah, justify it like that. If you drink 3 espressos a day it'll only cost you £1 per drink for the first year. Then it just gets cheaper and cheaper. Still cheaper than Starbucks


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I didn't have to justify buying my Expobar because it was bought for me by my son.

Even though he was only a few days old at the time. His late arrival into the world a couple of days before the start of my Christmas holiday meant there was no point taking two weeks paternity leave with the consequence of losing two weeks pay. The resultant saving was merely passed on to Rob the Roaster in exchange for a Leva Dual. No justification needed, not that my loved-up and no longer pregnant wife would have even thought to ask for one.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Expobarista said:


> I didn't have to justify buying my Expobar because it was bought for me by my son.
> 
> Even though he was only a few days old at the time...


Do you think your son chose the right machine?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

A dual boiler PID E61 machine for a grand? Absolutely. The Rockets that were available at the time had a lower spec, even though Rocket attend to all the little aesthetic details very well.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

To me the only thing letting this machine down is copper boilers, copper isn't as inert a material as i would like surrounding my water as it is heated. Marine grade brass would have been a far better choice. The Duetto still remains my dream machine..


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

On second thought, I bet the Duetto also has copper boilers doesn't it? I never really thought about it before, nor do I really want to find out!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I'd want my boiler ideally to be made out of adamantium.

The only way to ensure it's fully scale and wolverine proof.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> A dual boiler PID E61 machine for a grand? Absolutely. The Rockets that were available at the time had a lower spec, even though Rocket attend to all the little aesthetic details very well.


Too right. Would rather put the extra towards a better grinder


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

The rocket does appear to have a larger brew boiler which would be nice as you should get less temp loss over the course of extraction.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Brewtus is well spec'd:-

Expobar Leva Dual Boiler £1,099.00 inc VAT *Boiler: Twin insulated 1.5 litre boilers, one for steam and one for brew water. Copper with brass ends, 1200W heating elements in each* either boiler can be switched off from the front of the machine.

Rocket Dual Boiler R58 Espresso Machine - Price: €2,150.00 (€1,776.86 excl. VAT)

Dual Boiler: Working independently for both brewing and steaming, the dual boiler along with thermo siphon system design allows for stability in the espresso boiler and increased levels of steam pressure and hot water from the service boiler. *The brewing boiler holds 0.58 liters while the hot water/steam boiler holds 1.7 liters.*


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

The brew boiler in the Brewtus is pretty huge! I think it was to save money in manufacturing by only having one size of boiler, seems like common sense to me.

I'd expect the Rocket to be a bigger steamer though, 1.4kW element and bigger boiler plus PID control - similar to the duetto.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

The Rocket is about 40% more than the Expobar.

For that you getting a better build quality, better attention to small details, higher quality parts in some cases (such as pressurestat, pump, valves) and an undeniably better finish.

Do you get better coffee?

That remains to be seen, but I would be surprised, certainly from a temperature stability point of view.

With regards to steaming, the Expo is a monster. Youve got a large steam boiler that you can safely crank up to 1.4 bar. The single tip is there to make it more controllable, and enable you to steam a single cappuccino to perfection. It is a domestic machine after all. It slows down the steam, but if you require faster steam a twin hole tip will froth a pint of milk in seconds.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> The Rocket is about 40% more than the Expobar.
> 
> For that you getting a better build quality, better attention to small details, higher quality parts in some cases (such as pressurestat, pump, valves) and an undeniably better finish.
> 
> ...


1.25 bar and a single tip is plenty for steaming


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Brewtus is well spec'd:-
> 
> Expobar Leva Dual Boiler £1,099.00 inc VAT


Have you seen it recently at this price. I think BB list it at £1,199


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> Have you seen it recently at this price. I think BB list it at £1,199


http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/expobar-leva-dual-boiler-coffee-machine.asp


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/expobar-leva-dual-boiler-coffee-machine.asp


Ah i was looking at this one http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=ECOZA0SLF1MIPLUMB

Is the only difference that that one can be plumbed in?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> Ah i was looking at this one http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/proddetail.asp?prod=ECOZA0SLF1MIPLUMB
> 
> Is the only difference that that one can be plumbed in?


It might have a Rotary pump also, you'd need to check with Claudette


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

There seem to be quite a few complaints over at home barista about the steaming on the Expobar compared to similar sized machines (which surprised me!) and I think I read somewhere recently that the element couldn't keep up with the 4 hole steam tip if you were making more than one drink.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

Does the Expobar have a rotary pump? It doesn't say on that page. If it does I might be temped by this. Oh no! Just when I thought I'd settled on an Evoluzione


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

lookseehear said:


> There seem to be quite a few complaints over at home barista about the steaming on the Expobar compared to similar sized machines (which surprised me!) and I think I read somewhere recently that the element couldn't keep up with the 4 hole steam tip if you were making more than one drink.


Wouldnt even try a 4 hole tip on it. 1 is ample, 2 is turbo charged!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

chimpsinties said:


> Does the Expobar have a rotary pump? It doesn't say on that page. If it does I might be temped by this. Oh no! Just when I thought I'd settled on an Evoluzione


I think the Rotary/plumb version is £1199...the vibe is £1099. Vibes are noisy but only 30 quid/30 mins to replace...and they dont go bang immediately if run out of water.

Do love the quietness of Rotary tho


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

If you want a better deal try Rob at Rave coffee. Phone him and negotiate. He did me a Dual for £1000 just before Christmas (although a bit of that discount was because I picked it up myself.). Included in the price are several hours of barista training. Parts and labour warranty for a year (I think). So far I have had one issue with the machine with a failed probe. Rob replaced it immediately. He also roasts kickass coffee.


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> I think the Rotary/plumb version is £1199...the vibe is £1099. Vibes are noisy but only 30 quid/30 mins to replace...and they dont go bang immediately if run out of water.
> 
> Do love the quietness of Rotary tho


Had a reply from BB, only difference is the more expensive one can be plumbed in.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

pendragoncs said:


> Had a reply from BB, only difference is the more expensive one can be plumbed in.


Im not concerned at this stage about plumbing in - The Brewtus has a 3litre drip tray and 3 litre tank which is easy to access fill.

However when we move house (soon hopefully) I would consider an upgrade to rotary and plumbed in .

I have no upgraditis whatsoever tho in terms of shot quality right now. I can control temp, pressure, preinfusion...and happily service my own machine


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

I think the serviceability of the Leva is one of its attractions. Generic parts that are easy to source and a wealth of available knowledge to inform.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

On reflection, I do think the separate PID controller on the new Rocket is an example of bad design - making operation less convenient for the sake of aesthetics. Do you really have to plug in the controller to switch off the steam boiler? Looks like you do. It's not as if the controller is something you are only going to use occasionally.

Could they really not found a way of putting the control on the machine itself without making it ugly? A design fail, I think.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I don't agree that the average user would use the PID controller all the time. they'd most likely get it set up once then never touch it again. If you don't steam milk, you don't steam milk, no point in having the steam boiler on ever. It's only geeks like us that would be fiddling all the time


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

chimpsinties said:


> I don't agree that the average user would use the PID controller all the time. they'd most likely get it set up once then never touch it again. If you don't steam milk, you don't steam milk, no point in having the steam boiler on ever. It's only geeks like us that would be fiddling all the time


 Well I don't steam milk for myself, but I do for my friends. So some of the time I don't need steam at all, other times I need a good full head of it.

And I would defend the right of geeks like us to fiddle whenever we damn please - especially if we've shelled out a grand a half for a machine! And what are PID controllers for, if not to tweak and fiddle!


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## pendragoncs (Feb 14, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> I think the Rotary/plumb version is £1199...the vibe is £1099. Vibes are noisy but only 30 quid/30 mins to replace...and they dont go bang immediately if run out of water.
> 
> Do love the quietness of Rotary tho


Just followed up on this with BB and a rotary version is available but she doesn't stock it for 2 reasons. Firstly the price brings it very close to the price of a Duetto and secondly descaling the plumb only version is a bit of a nightmare involving the boiler having to be removed and soaked. So not something most home users could do.

Seems i may now be upgrading a bit sooner.......nearly crashed the car on the way home when the wife said and i quote "If it stops you going on about the bleeding then....buy it!"









So seeing an i'm only 20 mins from Bella Barista it seems silly not to pop over and take a look at them next week.....i think from various posts and comments on here the Expobar is a lot of machine for the money and maybe what i'll go for.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

chimpsinties said:


> I don't agree that the average user would use the PID controller all the time. they'd most likely get it set up once then never touch it again. If you don't steam milk, you don't steam milk, no point in having the steam boiler on ever. It's only geeks like us that would be fiddling all the time


I switch my steam boiler off all the time, saves electricity and increases the life span of components. I also change my temps a couple of times for each bean.

Out of sight , out of mind - if youre paying for it why not use it??


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I've just had a reply from claudette:

Hi Luke

We've finally just received the first R58 this afternoon and it looks great. We shall have a play with it and see how it performs but if you'd like to come and view it, please feel free and I have 4 more machines to follow.

The price will be £1799 inc. VAT.

Regards

Claudette

Its a bit more than a duetto but not hugely more. Perhaps even a bit less than I was expecting. I'd love to go and have a play at some point.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Now on the BellaBarista site. http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffeemachines/rocket-espresso-r58-dual-boiler-espresso-machine.asp#

Still don't like the plug-in PID control.


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