# Frustrated newbie



## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

Hi

I bought a Gaggia Classic & MDF grinder a couple of months ago and went through a month or so of reading here and other places online, messing around with different coffees, grinds, shot times etc. without ever getting a drinkable espresso, frustrated by this, I basically gave up and went back to getting my morning coffee at work rather than at home. But seeing the shiny espresso machine in the corner of the kitchen everyday, I'm determined to get it working properly. My kitchen is undergoing some work for the next few days so I won't get a chance to actually start for a few days but I'll start collecting any available advice now.

Equipment

Gaggia Classic (with non pressurised basket)

Gaggia MDF Grinder

Weighing scales

Measuring shot glass (2 oz)

kit for testing brewing pressure on Gaggia

Coffee

I had been using a wide range of coffees up to now but I have ordered Hasbean Jailbreak espresso blend based on recommendations online (hopefully to be delivered by early next week)

One thing I want to do immediately is modify the grinder to stepless, I found that the MDF was grinding too fine on one setting but the next setting ground too coarse (very slow and very fast flow resp.) I have found easy to follow guides online for this - so this shouldn't be a problem.

I also bought a pressure gauge and, following this guide http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?6174-Gaggia-Classic-Portafilter-Pressure-Gauge-OPV-mod

tested the pressure. From memory it was coming out at around 10.5 bar - so this seems to be close enough to correct if I understand correctly - I am open to reducing to pressure if people think this would make a difference though.

I'm going to post on this thread as I work towards getting a drinkable cup and I'll be grateful for any advice.


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## carbonkid85 (Jan 19, 2011)

Can you describe what you mean by undrinkable? What does the shot taste like?


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

some would be bitter, others sour


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Grind and distribution are absolutely key for espresso. Address those prior to playing with pressure, temperature etc

Are your shot times 25-30 seconds?


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

Hi

shot times were usually less than 20 secs, I'm thinking getting the grind right by making the grinder stepless will be step 1?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

steveocal said:


> some would be bitter, others sour


I would stake money on it being a lack of temperature stability. I'm not au fait with the Classic but I bet it isn't temperature stable. This will, for the same dose and grind, give you shots that are inconsistent unless you control the temperature by either:

A) fitting a PID

B) temperature surfing.... I'm sure someone can explain how to do this on a Classic.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

steveocal said:


> Hi
> 
> shot times were usually less than 20 secs, I'm thinking getting the grind right by making the grinder stepless will be step 1?


You wont be able to get a good espresso with a grind that coarse.

24-25 seconds minimum.

Your grinder is most likely the issue here


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hi Steveocal,

You don't mention what kind of final shot weights you have been working around? What dose are you starting with?

Many hold to the idea that working with these weights to find the ideal brew ratio (e.g. aiming for 60% extraction, or 1.65 times the weight of the grinds - the same ratio expressed 2 different ways), a fast & efficient way to make progress.

If your grinder adjustment is limiting you in the short term, it may be possible to do some fine tuning with the dose, a larger dose may be stronger (can be diluted) but may avoid the back of the throat bitterness you get with overextraction. A smaller dose might help steer away from sour, acidic, or sharply bitter (front of the tongue) flavours.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> I would stake money on it being a lack of temperature stability. I'm not au fait with the Classic but I bet it isn't temperature stable. This will, for the same dose and grind, give you shots that are inconsistent unless you control the temperature by either:
> 
> A) fitting a PID
> 
> B) temperature surfing.... I'm sure someone can explain how to do this on a Classic.


All the temperature stability in the world isnt going to save a sub 20 second shot (I could be wrong)


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

Expobarista said:


> I would stake money on it being a lack of temperature stability. I'm not au fait with the Classic but I bet it isn't temperature stable. This will, for the same dose and grind, give you shots that are inconsistent unless you control the temperature by either:
> 
> A) fitting a PID
> 
> B) temperature surfing.... I'm sure someone can explain how to do this on a Classic.


temperature stability isn't something I'd considered - will look into this, thanks


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> You wont be able to get a good espresso with a grind that coarse.
> 
> 24-25 seconds minimum.
> 
> Your grinder is most likely the issue here


I think you're right - once kitchen is sorted (by the weekend hopefully) I plan on converting the MDF grinder to stepless to address the grind

Thanks


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## repeat (Nov 14, 2009)

I had a similar issue with my rocky grinder. Had to Either up dose to slow the shot or under dose to speed it up based on the grind settings.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> All the temperature stability in the world isnt going to save a sub 20 second shot (I could be wrong)


In theory no, but twenty seconds of a good pour can taste good. You are, as we all know, spot on with your advice here.

What I'm thinking though is that a simple thermostat machine like a Classic has the potential to have a wide variance of temperatures. My Silvia certainly did. I can't remember whether I tested it but I vaguely recall a range of about 10 degrees.

Take a standard coffee and brew it at 96 deg. It will be bitter. Now brew it at 86 deg. It will be sour.

I'd suggest googling 'Gaggia Classic temperature surfing' and at least trying it, if only to eliminate it from your enquiries.


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Hi Steveocal,
> 
> You don't mention what kind of final shot weights you have been working around? What dose are you starting with?
> 
> ...


Dosing with 18g (I think) - wasn't weighing final shot (stopping on volume) but will weigh once I'm up and running, I found a chart on this site with brew ratios on it, I'll use this as a guide.

Good tips about effect of increasing decreasing dose

thanks


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

repeat said:


> I had a similar issue with my rocky grinder. Had to Either up dose to slow the shot or under dose to speed it up based on the grind settings.


hopefully modding to stepless should sort this issue for me


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Great advice from everyone above.

The main thing is to try to be as consistent as possible from shot to shot and only change one thing at a time. With espresso, very small changes/inconsistencies can have a massive impact on the resulting beverage. Tamp pressure, dose (the weight of ground coffee), temperature and grind all affect the espresso so try to keep all these the same and alter the grind to change the pour (see below).

As said above, start by trying to produce an espresso that weighs 1.65 times the weight of the ground coffee in 25-30 seconds. You may need to place the scales on the drip tray, under the cup. If you reach the target weight in less than 25 seconds then adjust the grind finer and if it takes longer than 30 seconds then adjust the grind coarser. Make sure you use exactly the same weight of ground coffee each shot to the nearest 0.1g. If your scales do not have this level of precision, you may be able to pick some up for under £5 on ebay. A difference of less than 0.3g can affect the time of the pour by as much as 5 seconds.

Once you are in the 25-30 second ballpark, taste the espresso. If it tastes bitter adjust the grind coarser and if it tastes sour then adjust the grind finer. Do not worry if this adjustment takes you outside of the 25-30 second ballpark as that is really just a guideline and every coffee is different. You are aiming for an espresso that tastes sweet with crisp, balanced acidity.

Once you have found the sweet spot for your grinder, be warned that you may need to change it depending upon humidity, the age of the beans and of course if you change beans.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

I've been pulling quite a few 40-50sec espressos from 19g ending in 32g and they've been lovely. Some of the best I've had recently. I wouldn't worry too much about going over time. It's usually always going to be better than under time. Also if you've been pulling by volume alone, you might have been pulling too much from the beans to get a good shot. Weight is a much better reflection of what you're getting out. You might be quite surprised how little espresso you get out in terms of volume for a given ratio i.e. 60%


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

jimbow said:


> Great advice from everyone above.
> 
> The main thing is to try to be as consistent as possible from shot to shot and only change one thing at a time. With espresso, very small changes/inconsistencies can have a massive impact on the resulting beverage. Tamp pressure, dose (the weight of ground coffee), temperature and grind all affect the espresso so try to keep all these the same and alter the grind to change the pour (see below).
> 
> ...


That sounds like a good procedure to minimise variables, I have a sensitive weighing scales so the last thing I need to get cracking is the ability to make fine adjustments in the grind

Thanks


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

chimpsinties said:


> I've been pulling quite a few 40-50sec espressos from 19g ending in 32g and they've been lovely. Some of the best I've had recently. I wouldn't worry too much about going over time. It's usually always going to be better than under time. Also if you've been pulling by volume alone, you might have been pulling too much from the beans to get a good shot. Weight is a much better reflection of what you're getting out. You might be quite surprised how little espresso you get out in terms of volume for a given ratio i.e. 60%


That's interesting - I was trying to get bang on the 25 sec and discarding grinds which were slower

Thanks


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

As I said in another thread my current pours are about 35-40 seconds and they taste lovely to me. I recently tried a quicker shot and it wasnt to my palate.

You are better going from a slow pouring shot backwards until you get what you like.

I havent noticed many temp issues with my gaggia. I cant say I notice much difference from when I just pull a shot straight off to when I do a cooling shot first etc.

Your distribution and tamp are worth looking at. My shots have been a million times more consistent since I got my VST basket and matched tamper.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I would add my support to extracting by weight rather than volume and yes when you do this you will think its about half the volume of what you may have previously been working to. But it makes a huge difference. If you work from a set dry weight to a set wet weight then providing you have a standard dose, distribution and tamp you just need to adjust the grind by time readings. From my own experience I find closer to 30secs is about right but obviously adjust grind to taste.

Another thing I have found very important is distribution. If you just fill the basket and tamp you will not get a good extraction. Levelling and distributing the grinds really makes for a more even pour and you will find that you need to go coarser as previously there will have been channelling speeding it up. I would say that these two factors (technique wise) have made a huge difference for me.


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

Milesy said:


> As I said in another thread my current pours are about 35-40 seconds and they taste lovely to me. I recently tried a quicker shot and it wasnt to my palate.
> 
> You are better going from a slow pouring shot backwards until you get what you like.
> 
> ...


On the distribution, one thing I wasn't doing which seems to be important from reading here and elsewhere is stirring the ground coffee to eliminate clumps, I will start doing this. I also wasn't particularly consistent with my tamping pressure - again I'll be doing this.


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

It's funny how often people on here tell others to "Pay attention to every little detail", "Distribution is important", "Correct tamping is vital" and still everyone ignores it until they actually try it themselves and then in finally sinks in. Haha!

I myself used to just grind into the basket then tamp down. How wrong I was that that was ok to do.

Now it's:

-Grind into grind bin

-Shake about a bit (not that I really need to cos the Vario doesn't clump)

-pour into the PF

-stir with bent safety pin

-level off with finger

-gentle tap on taming mat to settle lower grinds

-tamp straight down followed by very light twisting polish

-blow off any excess that's still floating about.

-Extract.

Yummy!


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Equipment that works as it should helps enormously. Dosered Mazzer Mini= never having to do more than slide finger round to distribute grinds and quick even tamp.


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## thomss (May 9, 2011)

I normally tamp with a sledge hammer. slightly more than 30lbs of pressure


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

....followed by a tantric dance round the portafilter before extraction


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Are you using the pressurised basket supplied with the classic or have you swapped it out for a proper basket?


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

Outlaw333 said:


> Are you using the pressurised basket supplied with the classic or have you swapped it out for a proper basket?


Using proper basket from happydonkey


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## thomss (May 9, 2011)

Expobarista said:


> ....followed by a tantric dance round the portafilter before extraction


You been watching me dude?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

We've all been there, son


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

1kg of Jailbreak espresso blend arrived from Hasbean and my grinder is now stepless so I'm ready to get to work.

2 q's

- is it worth getting a cheaper coffee to dial in the grinder, or will different grind requirements for different coffees make this pointless?

- is it worth modding the Gaggia Classic to 9bar right from the outset? (from 12 bar currently I think) see:






I have the tools to mod the opv

Thanks


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Maybe not. Even the most tricky beans can be dialed in in 2 shots or less.

Try to start off with a gusher, go finer and try to get to the sweet spot 25-35 seconds for your given brew ratio.

It's all about knowing how much of an adjustment is needed to give the required change in extraction time.

Hope this helps. Also Jailbreak is quite forgiving. Good luck!


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

Making a bit of progress, I've reduced the pressure on the classic to 9 bar, and got a (barely) palatable espresso this morning. Just have to put another layer or two of teflon tape on the MDF grinder to stop it drifting away from its setting and my modding is done for the time being.


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

Finally getting tasty coffee from my machine - thanks to all that advised above. I did a lot of experimenting with grind settings on the MDF and finally hit the sweet spot.

One further question about the weight in the portafilter. The exact weight seems to be critical according to a lot of people but then people talk about filling the portafilter with ground coffee and leveling across the top (which I've been doing). These two pieces of advice seem to be inconsistent - by filling and leveling you don't have control over the weight of coffee? Also I would think that if you don't fill the portafilter to the top it would be very difficult to get it level before tamping. Any advice on this?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Hi Steve

Filling and levelling will result in different weights as you change grind and also beans.

Weighing each shot is the best method for consistency.

To get the puck level, use a sturdy tamper with sufficient weight behind it. Let it sit on the grounds. It will do some of the work for you and then just apply pressure, keeping it level as you do so.

However, try keeping thumb and middle finger at opposite sides of the tamper rim, so that as you place the tamper into the basket it will be level by default.

Start by reaching over the tamper and resting your thumb on the top of the base, pick up the tamper and pretend you are pointing at someone. Your finger will naturally find the other side of the base.

Sounds bizarre but it works a treat!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

As Glenn said, filling the portafilter level with the brim is a method used to approximately measure a consistent dose of ground coffee. This method is often used in commercial and high volume settings where weighing each dose is not practical, sacrificing consistency and accuracy for speed. The problem is, as you identified, the actual weight can vary a lot when measuring by volume in this way. If you are in a domestic setting where you are making only one or two drinks at a time then I would weigh the doses. Also, always weigh the doses when dialing in the grinder.


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## steveocal (Apr 26, 2012)

Thanks Glenn & Jimbob

Steve


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## chimpsinties (Jun 13, 2011)

It's also not that hard to be careful in your leveling and make sure that you keep all the grinds in your PF. Just move them around, maybe give it a bit of tap on the unit top. As long as your not massively over dosing, it should be fine.


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## simmo3801 (Sep 27, 2012)

wow! I have been rigidly sticking to 25 secs to achieve a 2 oz shot whilst dialing in my Iberital MC2, I see I will now have to go back to the drawing board for a short time to experiment moore. I did taste most of my shots on the way to my goal and I remember thinking they were perfectly acceptable!

Thanks to everyone for the great advice


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