# Coffeechap safe smart grinder review



## coffeechap

So Sage finally sent me a smart grinder which I will be reviewing over the next few weeks, I will be putting it through its paces and drawing direct comparisons to the Forum recommended small grinders and other grinders that you can get for a similar price point. I will be completely objective in my observations of this grinder, those that know me will know that I will be completely fair and very thorough in my assessment.

First things first as I managed to have a good play with it last night to get a feel for it and give it a quick blast. Out of the box I was pleasantly surprised at the look of the grinder, very nice order to the buttons and very pleasant on the eye, I was however alarmed at the weight ( or lack of it) of this grinder, which made me question the motor that is in it, however I will hold off on that until I have had a much deeper look into the workings. Set up was quick and both myself and rob ( from rave coffee) were pleased with the functions and how easy it is to set up. Within minutes the grinder was ready to go.

First shots were all pulled on an Expobar brewtus at 93 degrees using Italian job beans.

It took around three back to back shots to dial the grinder in and on shot number four we were getting 30 grams out from 16 grams in over 28 seconds. Taste was quite flat and a little sour so tightened grind one mark and prepped and pulled another shot, both rob and I really liked the look of this pour, pretty much exactly what we would expect for this bean, bags of crema slow consistent pour, expectations were quite high. The taste did not match the expectation, the shot for want if a better word was flat and lifeless not at all what we expected.

Anyway these are the first shots of many which will be pulled over a variety of beans and machines, so won't pass judgement on taste performance until the end.

One thing that caused us a lot of concern was the electrical burning smell coming from the grinder after 5 back to back shots ground on it, it smelled like the motor was being over worked, which could be down to a few factors, including a small low powered motor or the fact that the burrs are shimmed closer together, or it could be down to the fact it is brand new, again more stringent tests on load will provide more information on this. Needless to say neither rob nor myself was happy to do any more shots based on the smell. ( could be similar to dfk41s observation of the grinder stalling under heavy load)

So to summarise the first look, nice looking grinder loads of functions, easy to adjust very light, struggled under a reasonable load ( 5 back to back shots) fluffy grinds but flat shot profile. More to come


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## MrShades

Some very amusing autocorrects in there... especially (I assume it's an autocorrect anyway) towards the end ;-)

Can't wait to hear more Dave - keep it coming and comparisons to other machines that you could spend £200 on (new or used) would be very interesting.


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## coffeechap

Have corrected the iPhone mistakes


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## MrShades

By the initial sound of it, you probably should've left the last one...


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## Charliej

Dave, I haven't actually had a play with the one they sent me yet, other than having to clean it out of some rather nasty smelling residue, from looking at it, it seems to have a lot of retention underneath the bottom burr as it was packed solid with old grounds, the brush that comes with it whilst being quite stiff wouldn't even penetrate what was stuck between the spokes of the "star".


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## coffeechap

Mine was brand new, haven't taken it apart yet but will have a look inside and gauge the retention.


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## Charliej

My major concern having had it apart down to the lower burr is the plastic of the upper burr carrier and the way it locks in.

I wonder if the flavour profile will change after the burrs have been used for a while, I'll try to compare notes with you on the next lot of DSOL beans.


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## SimonB

How does it compare to the MC2? That is I assume its main competition for price/performance.


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## Mrboots2u

For me it's stuck between the mc2 and the mignion . Mignion the to come up for £200-220 second hand , and are the next step up in the new price range .


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## coffeechap

I think that if it can do a good job reliably it fills a significant gap in the market it certainly has much better features than hoth the mc2 and the mignon, the key will be grind quality and reliability/ robustness


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## Daren

It might be OK for the occasional weekend drinkers.


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## garydyke1

some pictures of the in-basket distribution would be useful


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## Fevmeister

looking forward to the full review


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## coffeechap

garydyke1 said:


> some pictures of the in-basket distribution would be useful


Will do some photos when I play with the la Pavoni


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## bronc

Daren said:


> It might be OK for the occasional weekend drinkers.


Note that I haven't used the grinder, but I think it will be a good grinder not just for the occasional weekend drinker but also for people who want to enjoy fine coffee but don't want to spend a huge chunk of their time/income/counter space trying to achieve a perfect shot. I have quite a few friends who love the coffee I make but they think the process of getting their is too cumbersome and complicated. I think that a grinder such as this one would suit them very well.


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## Pompeyexile

I'm waiting with bated breath for the full review as this is my first foray into making real coffee and I've just purchased a Gaggia Classic with Silvia steam wand and PID which should be with me by the end of the week. I have no more than £200 to spend on the grinder but as my other half (and myself if I'm honest) also like to break out the cafetiere when we have friends round, I'm looking for a grinder that can do both.

Mind you, if anyone can recommend a good pair of grinders one espresso and the other that does a fairly even cafetiere style grind for £200 the job lot, I'm all ears.


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## Saftlad

Like PompeyExile, I'm keen to hear what you make of it.

I should have a classic by the end of next week, and having already bought this grinder it should be interesting to hear your views.

My grinder has to be able to adjust easily between espresso, aeropress and filter and this appears to fit the bill. A big semi-commercial grinder wouldn't appeal in any way to mrs saftlad.


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## bagg3rs

I am almost ready to buy since I have some credit at John Lewis which was I have the go ahead to use on the smart grinder if need be.


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## Glenn

Pompeyexile - for the money this is a good grinder to do both well, and is fairly repeatable too. Easy to switch between filter and espresso


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## coffeechap

Ok so here is a little update folks.

Been playing with switching the grind settings on the grinder supplied preshimmed, one thing I will say is that it will not adjust between espresso and filter coffee settings as the shim means that pretty much all the settings are in the espresso range and in order to get the grind setting out to caffetiere you have to remove the shim first, thus depleting the versatility of the grinder, that said the espresso grind will go down far enough to choke a commercial rancilio class 7 which I have been using the grinder on this evening.

So tonight's playing involved pulling espresso for the staff in the hotel. Using raves Nicaraguan El bosque single origin, which is pretty funky.

It took a couple of shots to dial it in to 18 grams in 30 grams out over 29 seconds, pour just about spot on, slightly low on crema but not overtly so. Mouthfeel better this time, not getting the clarity of the mazzer super jolly and lacking in overall mouthfeel, but not unpleasant and better than the blend done on the expobar, however 6 shots down and machine started to stumble, heavy electrical burning smell again and after eight quick succession shots the machine completely stalled and needed to rest for 5 minutes before it functioned again. Now although not a huge issue for single shot users, those who want to pull shots for guests or a dinner party should seriously consider whether this is for them.

Haven't had the chance to take any photos yet but will get some done over the weekend and will take it along to the northern get together on Saturday for people to have a look at.

More later......


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## Fevmeister

Sounds pretty useless then other than for pulling one shot of espresso at a time!


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## 4085

What do you want for £200?

No, dont answer that as you will probably say a Mythos


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## coffeechap

Fevmeister said:


> Sounds pretty useless then other than for pulling one shot of espresso at a time!


No not useless, but I. Terms of grind quality fir espresso, no better than an mc2


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## Pompeyexile

Ooh now I'm already getting confused (A) being a real coffee newby and (B) technically inept because in my naivety I thought that when a machine is sold on the pretext of showing a display that reads 'Press' at one end of the grinding scale and 'Espresso' at the other, it would actually do those grinds. Where do shims come into the equation and why doesn't Sage mention that on their website?

Confused and somewhat disappointed.


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## 4085

The concept of espresso grounds varies from one machine to another. the shims effectively close the gap between the burrs allowing you to grind finer than intended. very few grinders are really capable of coping with the extremes of coarsest and finest grinds, so that you really end up being able to do one well, and not the other. by putting shims in, it allows the grind to fine down for espresso, but them moves it further away from a coarse grind if you need to pour over etc


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## Charliej

I thought this may be the best place to put my thoughts so far.

I've had the Sage grinder on the bench and been playing with it today, had some jampit in the Sage and the RR55, no-one is going to be at all surprised by the results in the cup.

The shots using the Smart Grinder seemed very one dimensional, very reminiscent of the results I used to get from the MC2, whereas the shots using the RR55 seemed much more alive, a bit like going from black and white to Technicolour.

The Sage was easy enough to dial in, but that said maybe I got lucky on the 1st try at setting it, it seemed to take ages to grind the 19g of beans unlike the RR55, it's a quiet enough grinder (I'll break out the professional sound level meter at some point and measure the noise level), certainly quieter than an MC2, but even Daren with a cactus inserted where the sun doesn't shine is quieter than an MC2. It didn't spill any grinds and the shroud held the portafilter in perfectly well and the ground coffee dropped straight into the basket eventually, it's certainly easy enough to use, I'm going to see if I can get some old stale beans from Roberts & Co in the next day or so as I want to have a play with this feature that supposedly keeps your dose the same whatever your grind level, but I refuse to waste the last of my Jampit messing around with that. So the results so far RR55 1 Sage 0, for me personally I wouldn't buy one, but if the features all work properly and you can switch grind level easily, they will be a useful alternative to the MC2 and maybe the Rocky as well. Certainly at the moment I think if you already have an MC2 or Rocky then the Smart Grinder would be a sidestep not an upgrade and if people are going to end up pairing this with the Dual Boiler then they will be missing out on the tastes a better grinder will help to provide.

I haven't pulled the amount of back to back shots that Dave has as I just couldn't take being that caffeinated, it did seem to take a long time to grind me the 19g of beans so maybe too many back to back shots is exceeding its intended duty cycle.


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## Pompeyexile

Thanks dfk41 I understand the concept of the shims now but what I really am surprised at is that you buy a machine that perports to do a certain job but then to do it properly you have to, for want of a better expression 'pimp your ride' to get an acceptable performance.

I appreciate that all grinders are not the same and that there will always be a variation in quality but I guess what i'm looking for is a definitive is it worth £200 of my hard earned cash for a newby just starting out on the espresso journey but also needs to think of grinding for a Cafetiere.

If not then I need adivice because for my price range the choices seem limited and I haven't a clue.


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## 4085

Pompey, what a lot of people do, is concentrate on a grinder for their main drink and then purchase a hand grinder for their second choice. Others can advise on the hand grinder stuff. Despite what marketing men may claim, very few grinders are capable of going from one extreme to the other successfully, hence the compromise


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## MWJB

Pompeyexile said:


> Thanks dfk41 I understand the concept of the shims now but what I really am surprised at is that you buy a machine that perports to do a certain job but then to do it properly you have to, for want of a better expression 'pimp your ride' to get an acceptable performance.
> 
> I appreciate that all grinders are not the same and that there will always be a variation in quality but I guess what i'm looking for is a definitive is it worth £200 of my hard earned cash for a newby just starting out on the espresso journey but also needs to think of grinding for a Cafetiere.
> 
> If not then I need adivice because for my price range the choices seem limited and I haven't a clue.


When you see "Press" & "espresso", or "drip" grinds mentioned, there's a fair bit of leeway and in some cases suggestions are useful but somewhat arbitrary. You can brew in a French press (also Clever Dripper & Aeropress) with just about any grind, the difficulty is keeping sediment out of the cup (you can re-filter through a V60 & Chemex paper, Clever, Aeropress...or by careful brewing, just keep sediment down). Most of the time you don't really need to go as coarse as typically suggested for French press. A specific grind is more important for brewers where water passes through the bed/puck (drip/espresso), rather than just steeps, because this dictates flow & how much you extract from the coffee.


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## garydyke1

This is one scenario where an EK43 would be handy


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## 4085

garydyke1 said:


> This is one scenario where an EK43 would be handy


Yep, especially if they can come in at under £200!


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## garydyke1

I'd rip their arm off for 600!


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## Charliej

garydyke1 said:


> I'd rip their arm off for 600!


I can then imagine Laura would your arm off for you when you got it home lol, I can see it now " Well it will last longer than a roof !!"


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## garydyke1

Haha, yes. Of course the Royal and Maestro+ would go on sale to recoup some of the costs.

''Roofs dont grind beans, duuuuurrr!''


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## Yes Row

Get the grinder Gary, there should be loads of roofs flying around today and you can get one for free!


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## bagg3rs

OK so 5 in a row is something I guess I would do very infrequently and I might also be waiting on my Classic and my own amateur skills also. Is the Eureka Mignon a £80 step up from the Smart/EC2 etc? I mean would it be worth it. Or for me a two x double shot morning and then maybe 4 x dbl each on the weekend maybe the smart fits that bill.


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## jeebsy

Used Mignons go for about 200 and if you buy from here it should be well looked after


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## Pompeyexile

I think bagg3rs that's where i'm coming from because if I then get addicted enough and good enough at pulling shots to increase my espresso making markedly, as well as wealthy enough to upgrade, then some of theses fine professional machines that I can see many of you real conniosseurs on here have spent your kids or cat's home inheritance on, would be exactly where I would go.


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## 4085

Listen up kiddies! It is very hard in my view, to share knowledge without influencing people one way or the other. I have had several Mignons and they are my go to grinder. For the price, be it new or second hand, they are very capable and built like tanks. they have no electronic wizardry in them, look nice and if buying new, you can colour match. the downside is they have a small burr set so you cannot compare them to semi commercials like the SJ which is in the same arena price wise second hand. I would most definitely have another Mignon.

I own a Sage as well as I like to play with new things. the Sage is packed with clever details, but if you remove those, what are you left with? It has the same burr set as the MC2. It is slow. It is not noisy. It looks nice. It has no weight or substance to it. The motor size has not been declared but I managed to seize my machine up after pulling around 10 back to back shots.

It is too early in the life history of the Sage, to be telling people to buy it on my recommendation, because it has nothing to back itself up with.

the Mignon is a known quantity, so if it is a referral you want, then buy the Mignon. In a years time, that situation might be reversed, although personally, I do not think so.


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## bagg3rs

Yes that makes sense to me and kind of what I was thinking. How long does it take to grind 18grams? and how long for the Mignon. My heart says the Mignon as I can see that thing lasting for years it looks very pretty also and is not to large for my small kitchen and the other half, but my impatience says the Smart Grinder as I could pick one up like right now and use it tomorrow morning! I am currently smashing my beans with blades for 30secs which is actually not to bad IMO but I really want to grind on.


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## Pompeyexile

Now that's the sort of advice I want....Thanks dad


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## 4085

bagg3rs, if you ring Claudette and order over the phone you will have it tomorrow anwyay!


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## bagg3rs

haha, yes though a new Mignon its very far past my artificial limit that has been applied to me. There is some funds available and I was going to top up to £200, so I can either buy a second hand mignon hence the wait or get the sage now. OK yes I could just call Claudette and then say to the other half that it was £200....


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## 4085

Ring her and ask if she has any used ones. They are normally £220 delivered as they often use them at various events they have then move them on.


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## bagg3rs

Right OK I will give that a shot. thanks.

edit. Nothing till the new year unfortunately, will have to check used etc I guess and keep on smashing away.


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## bagg3rs

*NEW Rancilio Rocky Doserless Coffee Grinder 2013 Ed £215 inc taxes apparently*

*
* http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=rocky-doserless is this a scam is it a deal or what? I thought these went for more. Its not as good looking as the Mignon thats for sure.

edit. OK so coffeeitalia are actually based in Italy which could be a problem with issues. I think I will stay clear..


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## SimonB

bagg3rs said:


> *NEW Rancilio Rocky Doserless Coffee Grinder 2013 Ed £215 inc taxes apparently*
> 
> *
> *http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=rocky-doserless is this a scam is it a deal or what? I thought these went for more. Its not as good looking as the Mignon thats for sure.
> 
> edit. OK so coffeeitalia are actually based in Italy which could be a problem with issues. I think I will stay clear..


What issues do you see yourself having with a grinder? They are simple devices and I can't see normal home use wearing out a high end one.


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## bagg3rs

I was meaning initial problem I see people have got the wrong model e.g. doser version or used items. others fine though.


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## urbanbumpkin

I think there still might be a 2nd hand Mignon that Nij is selling. Have you had a look at it?


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## bagg3rs

urbanbumpkin said:


> I think there still might be a 2nd hand Mignon that Nij is selling. Have you had a look at it?


Its gone now, I like red but I could see complaints from my other half anyway, so it probably wasn't for me.

Sorry I have selfishly taken this thread away from what's about.... the Smart Grinder.

Questions then

When people say that its slow to grind (probably due to the smaller motor size), what is the time for 18grams to be ground say compared to the other grinders?

Would I be right in saying that the Smart Grinder producers less mess than the surrounding grinders e.g. mignon ec2?

Do you guys with the device still weigh the beans? or can it actually do a good job of that itself with its fancy digital screen!?


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## 4085

It seemed fairy accurate, but do not forget, to dial in you still have to with the grind out to set the timer button.. You basically choose on the scale, a setting. If that setting is fine enough, then you can adjust the amount of grind it produces on that setting with another button, which alters the time either way. useful for a beginner but to the more experienced user you can normally tell by eye, if there is too much/not enough grind in your basket. I know those of you who weigh every single shot out in weight and volume will howl with derision, but get a life! Coffee is not a science in the home, although many treat it as such. I know someone who actually keeps a log and has done for years of the bean, the ambient temp, the weight in, the volume/weight out tc etc.....why? what the hell is he going to larn!

these things are important pointers in helping you learn the craft, but thats all!

Unless you are working in a busy cafe, then the speed of your grinder for 18 gms is irrelevant (just for comparison, my K10 does 18 gms in about 3.8 seconds).

So, the sage may help you with its cleverness but it cannot replace or give you any knowledge that is needed in the craft of making coffee


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## Glenn

bagg3rs said:


> Would I be right in saying that the Smart Grinder producers less mess than the surrounding grinders e.g. mignon ec2?


There was no mess when I used one. It dropped straight into the portafilter, as there is a rubber/plastic screen that stops grinds going anywhere but into the basket.

The Sage portafilter fitted much better than a generic E61 one though


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## Mrboots2u

Dfk is right the speed of the grinder shouldn't be a huge issue . It's only when you are used to using an ex commercial that the mignion etc feels slow to grind. In reality though at home your not going to use the extra 14 seconds to much that it takes to grind for a lot







.


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## coffeechap

Further findings....

I have played more thoroughly with this grinder now, have tested it in on the L1 with a direct comparison to a mazzer super jolly( as apparently on another forum the sage was better than than an SJ, guy must have been smoking weed at the time!) the bean I used was something very familiar to me Raves Sumatran jagong, a bean that is full of sweetness and an excellent espresso! with a dark fruity taste and wonderful mouthfeel.

So the jagong through the sage on the L1 captured some of the flavours I was looking for, but yet again lacked depth, sure there was some dark fruit, but the mouth feel and crema were distinctly lacking, ( still no photos but promise to get some up soon) (16 gram in 25 grams out over 27 seconds) in contrast the mazzer pushed out more crema over the same shot parameters, mouth full was soooooo much better! the dark fruit shone through and lingered at the back of my mouth for ages. The two shots were like chalk and cheese, but only to be expected as the mazzer is £500 new, but good to compare as many on here have managed to get them second hand at the sages price point.

I have found the sage a clean grinder, doses into the centre of the portafilter, but a stock portafilter is a squeeze, the grind consistency remained good, however as I had gone fine and tamp lamp as is my methodology on the L1, I did notice that it was starting to clump and needed a bit of a stir to prevent channelling.

On the technical aspects of the grinder I had a look at dosing, I found that the grinder on the finer settings just did not dose enough coffee ( around 13 grams) when using the double shot setting on the maximum setting, perhaps again this was due to grinding a lot finer. I will have a much deeper play with settings and variables in the new year.

So I think the important question is does this grinder represent value for money? For a long time on the forum there has been a Gap in the market at the £200 price point, the current advice is to either get an mc2 ( noisiest grinder on earth) or push the boat out for a mignon, but the sage lies right at that point. Now grind consistency ifps no better than an mc2, but the features on the grinder knick the socks of most sub £400 on demand grinders, so there is certainly a bang for your buck principle here. Bottom line if the taste in the cup is the most important thing then my advice would be buy a second hand commercial or do near defenders and get an mc2, but if you function and options then thus is a viable grinder, just don't do too many shots after each other!!!!!

More to come....


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