# Bags - paper or plastic?



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Continued from other thread.

I am keen to get to the bottom of this bag thing TBH Paul, so thanks for this info. I had thought the paper ones would be cheaper since they aren't airtight. I could be wrong but HasBean sell the plastic ones for (I think) 65p each, which would be too expensive for me.

My main aim is indeed to protect the beans from ongoing oxidisation for as long as possible. Aside from the environmental impact (which I admit I hadn't considered) why would paper bags be more costly/better? I must be missing something. The paper ones I've used have been a bit crap.


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

The environmental impact is the big issue, but how effective are these air tight bags with valves? Did all coffee taste like shit after a week before companies started using them? There is always some air in the bag anyway thats what I don't get. Is it marketing nonsense? Would vacum packing not be the only way to combat oxidisation issues?

What about organic products, should they be supplied in plastic bags?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

First stop, correcting my mistake about HasBean bag prices... I wasn't sure and turns out I've overstated them. Actual prices here.

Now then...



> Did all coffee taste like shit after a week before companies started using them?


I know that I do see a marked decline in most beans after around 10 days (on average), and that the ones in paper bags degrade more rapidly in my experience. My attempts to explain it have led to the writings of experienced folks telling me that the decline in quality is a result of the reduction of CO2 in the bean... the outgassing CO2 protects the oils, sugars and aromatics stored in the bean's cell structure from the inbound oxygen, and once the CO2 is gone, so is the protection. So I guess it comes down to how much trust you place in these (perhaps pseudo-)scientific explanations of why avoiding oxidisation helps make the most of the bean.



> There is always some air in the bag anyway thats what I don't get.


True, but there's more air in a paper bag than in a resealable valve bag. I always squeeze out as much air as possible, which I can't do with a paper bag... or at least it's pointless because it's not airtight.



> Is it marketing nonsense?


There's the rub. Several roasters have said that paper is better and I'm confused as to why that would be the case considering what I've read and experienced concerning oxidisation.



> Would vacum packing not be the only way to combat oxidisation issues?


You'd think so, but as I understand it vacuum packing actively removes all CO2 from the bean thereby rendering it stale. However, I remain open-minded on this.



> What about organic products, should they be supplied in plastic bags?


Good question. Infact, why don't we have resealable bags for more of our fresh produce? I suspect the answer comes down to price and convenience. It's quite probable that we could extend the life of many fresh or organic products (just as we wish to with coffee beans) through better storage, but we choose not to... either because it seems cheaper to buy products in cheaper packaging, or because we can't be bothered to repackage fruits etc into protective packaging in our kitchens. Does the fact that we sub-optimise with fruit and veg make it ok to sub-optimise with our coffee beans? It's a personal choice... and it's a choice that is made harder if we don't fully understand the implications of the different packaging options.

So in my opinion we need some science here... some evidence regarding the use of paper or plastic for storing coffee beans. There must be a published paper somewhere... I'll do some digging. Anyone have anything?

Also... not that I'm questioning the environmental impact... but does anyone have any info on the adverse effect of plastic bags such as those used for valved coffee bags? Clearly the transport of plastic bags from China has a carbon footprint, and there's the question of biodegradability/landfill. I'm factless in this area so far.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

A further important point regarding environmental impact is that many valve bags seem to be metal foil, not plastic. Surely that makes them better from a green perspective, no?


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## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

Speaking as a user, not a coffee professional, what I notice with a plastic/foil valved bag vs. a paper bag is that old coffee in the plastic bag smells and tastes better at the moment of opening, and for perhaps a day afterward. But it's a false youth, and a day or so after opening, the plastic-bagged coffee doesn't seem any fresher to me than its age would suggest.

In other words, (I conjecture that) the coffee ages equally quickly in both types of bags, but the plastic bag retains some aromatics in its internal atmosphere that would escape from a paper bag. But once that atmosphere is breached, you get a rapid trip downhill to the bean's natural state.

Still, you do get that initial impression of freshness. I imagine that could be a useful thing for someone who opened a bag and used it quickly. For someone like me who takes most of two weeks to finish a bag, though, it's a barely useful difference, and therefore buying freshly-roasted coffee is the only answer.

(And I do mean freshly roasted, because they all taste foul to me by about two weeks after roast, so I'll only get a week's use out of a week-old bag, even if, from the roaster's perspective, I've received it just at its perfect peak.)

I won't make a coffee-buying decision based on the bag type, but I am sympathetic to the ecological and local-sourcing implications of paper bags, and am pleased when I get them. And I do have a bit of a feeling - not necessarily a justified one, mind - that bagging in paper rather than plastic sort of helps keep roasters honest with themselves about how well their coffee holds up in transport and delivery. Because a plastic bag does give that initial, somewhat misleading, whiff of freshness.

Two more notes before I wrap up this long post:

In my cup this morning is Cult of Done espresso by ST. ALi. The bag is brown paper on the outside, and plastic/foil valved on the inside. In other words the paper coating seems to be for cosmetic purposes only - but I am curious whether there is in fact some functional reason for it of which I am unaware.

And finally, enjoy these, the lyrics to The Bobs' Plastic or Paper. (Available from iTunes, Amazon, Rhapsody, Pandora, or on The Bobs' Songs for Tomorrow Morning album if you'd like to hear it sung.)


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

From searching the internet there seems to be many differing views on coffee storage and packaging.

It seems vacum packing can only be used to preserve the freshness of coffee once the gasses have escaped or the packing would explode.....defeats the purpose of buying freshly roasted coffee if it needs to sit for days first.

The National Coffee Association of U.S.A. say....

'The commercial coffee containers that you purchased your coffee in are generally not appropriate for long-term storage. Appropriate coffee storage canisters with an airtight seal are a worthwhile investment.' and this 'store coffee in air-tight glass or ceramic containers and keep it in a convenient, but dark and cool, location'.

One Glasgow roaster I was in the other week displays their roasted coffee in clear plastic tubes above the boiler they use for brewed coffee. These beans must be subjected to light, air, moisture and heat.

I agree 100% about science. You would like to think that the roasters using these valved bags have seen scientific evidence of vast improvements considering the impact that plastic (foil laminated?) has on the environment.......not just using them because their competitors do.

It just so happens my favourite coffee this year was supplied in a paper bag.

I normally only purchase beans that can be used within 10 days. I'm not sure if I could tell the difference on how they have been stored.

I used to work in the labs in Coca Cola and the guys used to swear that glass bottled coke tasted better.


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

Chiarasdad, the paper bag with the plastic/foil and valve inside I haven't seen. That really makes no sense to me at all.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

sicknote said:


> Chiarasdad, the paper bag with the plastic/foil and valve inside I haven't seen. That really makes no sense to me at all.


Me neither. That does sound like a marketing ploy.

I have seen paper bags with a one way valve and ziplock, which look like a good solution (if the paper isn't too porous).


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## HandsOnRoaster (Jul 5, 2011)

Hi Mike and others,

The reason I raised the issue was because I get a bit irritated that coffee from plastic/foil bags with valves has for a while almost became accepted as a 'standard', and I personally don't think that they achieve much (OTHER THAN keeping coffee on supermarket shelves (or warehouse shelves) for a longer time - paper bags also wouldn't cope with the rough and tumble of the distribution chain, being sat next to spices on a shelf etc.). I do cynically think that the valve emitting a coffee smell is also a slight marketing ploy in the same way that Subway pump out the smell of baking bread!

As to Mike's question about why the plastic/foil bags are cheaper to purchase - I'm not too sure other than guessing that they are easier to mass produce, bigger market for economies of scale, come from China etc.

A quality kraft paper bag with tin-tie etc. usually does have a thin plastic lining, so it isn't plastic free (though starch lining alternatives are available). We think this is a good compromise, as we can heat-seal the plastic lining so the bag is initially less open to the external atmosphere...and then once opened the bag can at least be folded down and held closed by the tie (there's a whole debate how to then store...). For coffee that is freshly roasted in the UK, supplied locally (or posted freshly roasted), and intended to be drunk 'freshly roasted', I personally think that plastic/foil bags with valves are unnecessary and taking into account their increased environmental impact this swings the balance for me. But for ground coffee to be sold on supermarket shelves I see why it's the chosen packing method.

Cheers,

Paul


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## AlIam (Aug 30, 2011)

Everything else being equal (& presumably it isnt :/), I'd rather buy coffee in paper bags. IMO, paper bags feel more 'artisan' and less mass produced. And they are more user friendly - the top folds down rather than needing to be held shut with a clothes peg.

Also, the whole valve thing seems completely unnecessary for freshly roasted coffee. I'd assumed that the point of them was to increase the saleable shelf life of coffee roasted god alone knows when. I was in the supermarket earlier & they had beans with sell by Jan '13 on them!

It really doesn't matter much to me either way though. I can't envisage it ever being the deciding factor whether I should buy a certain coffee or not.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

One-way degassing valves allow roasters to pack freshly roasted coffee immediately without the worry of having the bag burst open due to trapped air. Freshly roasted coffee releases gas and continue to do so for up to 7 days. A one-way valve will help release the gas while preventing air in, therefore keeping freshness intact. There will be a certain amount of air trapped in the bag initially (unless vacuum packed) but this will be pushed out of the one way valve pretty quickly whilst no more air is allowed in after the bag is sealed. You couldn't do this with a paper bag. For me, it's plastic/foil bags every time!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Interesting article from Barista Magazine regarding freshness and packaging.

http://www.baristamagazine.com/Issues/VolumeI/AprilMay05/definingfreshnes.html

They claim to have performed



> numerous attempts testing the degradation in freshness of roasted coffee against a control model


It's not the scientific and credible research I'd like to see, but it's a start. Here are some key extracts.



> Keep in mind that the yardstick for measuring freshness of roast is the rate and time it takes for a coffee blend to degas. Degassing is a kinder way of saying 'decomposing'.





> the time it takes to degas varies according to ... environmental conditions, packaging variations, etc.





> Take plastic-coated paper coffee bags, for example. The roasters who use this form of packaging tend to be convinced that it is the ideal form of casing for coffee beans. However, plastic-coated paper coffee bags, although trendy and stylish, cannot prevent oxygen from permeating through the lining and attacking the coffee beans ... Any material used to pack roasted coffee must block oxygen from permeating through its 'skin.'





> It's virtually impossible to determine the amount of time in which it takes freshness in coffee to disappear. I have tasted 'stale' coffee less than two months after roasting, and 'fresh' coffee more than six months after roasting. Without the accuracy of scientific measuring equipment, the best a barista can hope for in defining freshness of roast is a generality. All we have at our disposal are our eyes, noses and palates-but don't discount them. While highly subjective on their own, sight, scent and taste become a powerful array of analytical apparatus when used in concert.


This still leaves it wide open as far as determining how long beans stay fresh (there is no easy answer), but for me personally it gives me more confidence that paper bags are not as effective as foil since they allow greater oxidisation of the beans, shortening their period of freshness.

This matters to me mainly because I DON'T always use up my beans within a week or two, so I want to prolong their freshness for as long as possible. If I used them within a week, paper would be fine with me.

I'd like to be swayed by the environmental argument so I'll see what more I can find out. But so far I'm struggling to find it a compelling reason for avoiding foil bags.


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

Goodmorning.

Mike, you can notice the difference after 10 days in the taste of your coffee stored in airtight plastic bags. Why do you buy coffee that you can't finish in 2 weeks?

Thats a decent article on the Barista Magazine but some of the quotes are a bit........

A few quotes have me wondering though.....how many roasters and drinkers agree with the writer?



> 'Assuming that the packaged coffee beans go on to be stored in a wine cellar-type environment, they have the potential to remain fresh for up to three or four months'





> 'it's virtually impossible to determine the amount of time in which it takes freshness in coffee to disappear. I have tasted 'stale' coffee less than two months after roasting, and 'fresh' coffee more than six months after roasting. Without the accuracy of scientific measuring equipment, the best a barista can hope for in defining freshness of roast is a generality'


'


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Hi Sicknote,

Yeah, I agree that some of the article isn't as well presented as other parts but I think the points in the parts you've quoted do illustrate his argument... which is that anecdotal evidence is currently just as good as the scientific evidence (or lack of it) when it comes to this subject matter. If one person has tasted coffee being great six months after roasting then that must make it possible. I myself have been shocked at how amazing some espressos I made with commercial Illy beans tasted, and they are sealed in airtight cans after roasting. (I've also had mostly awful Illy espressos elsewhere, so I can't explain it)

Regarding your first question, that wasn't quite what I said. In airtight bags I find that the beans are fresher for longer than paper bags (with the exception of a bag of Paul's Lusty Glaze in paper, which remained an excellent espresso up to week 6 and then tailed off rapidly). I threw in a 10 day average but that's a little arbitrary TBH. What I'm saying is that I do notice the difference as a bean continues to degrade, whether that's days 1-7, 8-14, 15-21 etc. That's not any special skill on my part... it's a very obvious change in the results during extraction and tasting which I think anyone experienced home barista would notice. Why do I buy them if I'm not using them immediately? To increase my understanding. I'm in the process of training myself in readiness for (a) opening my own cafe, (b) competitions, © just enjoying being good at various brew methods. That means I don't just buy it to drink it, but also to practise and experiment - which are major sourced of learning for me. Opening my cafe and then learning on the job is something I'm choosing to avoid, so when I buy beans it's an investment - another reason I want to keep them fresh for as long as possible.


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

Makes perfect sense.....



MikeHag said:


> Why do I buy them if I'm not using them immediately? To increase my understanding. I'm in the process of training myself in readiness for (a) opening my own cafe, (b) competitions, © just enjoying being good at various brew methods. That means I don't just buy it to drink it, but also to practise and experiment - which are major sourced of learning for me. Opening my cafe and then learning on the job is something I'm choosing to avoid, so when I buy beans it's an investment - another reason I want to keep them fresh for as long as possible.


I noticed you were looking at Aberfeldy as a possible location in another post, did you see the unit at 1 Bank St?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

sicknote said:


> I noticed you were looking at Aberfeldy as a possible location in another post, did you see the unit at 1 Bank St?


Thanks mate, yeah - saw it a few weeks ago when we were up there. Not quite what we're looking for though... wrong side of the street. South-facing is essential for the summer crowd, from my research.


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## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

Nice part of the country and get's extremely busy in the summer, will keep you on your toes thats for sure.......sorry for taking it off topic.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Here's what Tim Wendelboe does to package their beans, and recommendation for storage and use tinescales. Surprising.


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## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

I know, there seem to be a number of top-quality roasters who feel their product peaks a week or more after roasting (Intelligentsia is another). But personally I don't mind, and often really prefer, coffee that's younger. If my bag of freshly-roasted coffee actually gets better a week in rather than worse and disappointing, I treat it as a pleasant surprise.

But I'm not going to wait a week before I open and start using that coffee. No matter what day the coffee's peak falls on, I have again and again found that by the two-week mark it is no longer enjoyable for me. Since I'm a home user who can take most of two weeks to go through a 250g bag, for me it makes the most sense to dive right in rather than wait for some idealised date and then waste half or more of the bag.


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

I agree with the essence of what you are saying. Most coffees, after an initial rest period of around 48hrs, are good to drink. If you open the bag at the point where it is at its best then you are going to get a couple of great cups, then it's downhill all the way to stale. Starting before the peak at least guarantees you will be drinking it fresher, with the anticipation that it is getting better.

As regards bagging and storage, roll the dice! If you scour the web long enough you will find justification for each and those knocking each. For buyer and seller alike I believe it comes down to personal preference, social conscience or economics. I don't believe there is a right answer apart from - BYO container


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

CoffeeMagic said:


> As regards bagging and storage, roll the dice! If you scour the web long enough you will find justification for each and those knocking each. For buyer and seller alike I believe it comes down to personal preference, social conscience or economics. I don't believe there is a right answer


Exactly. Isn't is so very very wrong that after all the effort and care involved in the speciality coffee production and supply chain, cultivating the finest quality beans, roasting them to perfection, that at the last minute there's a bagging lottery? Where's the science?


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

Perhaps it should be the next area of research (along with grinders







). These days it is possible to put ground coffee in a large porous paper bag for brewing, so there must be scope for making something in a compostable material that breathes in one direction (bit like goretex).


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## coffeeone (Dec 11, 2011)

interesting read. still none the wiser though. lol.

So if there is no definitive answer for storing of coffee beans and it all seems to be personal preference may i ask you guys how you store your beans? What containers and where? Thanks.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

If they come in a ziplock bag like Has Bean's I keep them in the bag.

If they come in anything non-sealable I used to leave them in the bag and try to seal it as best as possible after removing the air. Now I use airtight food containers ... Tupperware. Same for green beans. Just started doing this so can't comment on effectiveness. But I choose the container size so there's very little air in the headspace, which should minimise oxidisation of the beans.


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

Roasted in foil ziplock bags stored in cupboard or cool, dry spot. Greens in jute bags or as small amounts in 'whiskey tubes'


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## david_1 (Dec 20, 2011)

wow I wish I understood half of this thread. Helium bloons are different to normal bloons because they need smaller holes inthem to stop the helium getting out  LOL just a thought


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## coffeeone (Dec 11, 2011)

thanks for the response guys. the beans i just got have no resealable bag. So i need to go get me some tupperware? What about this any thoughts? http://www.amazon.co.uk/Delonghi-5513290061-Vacuum-Coffee-Canister/dp/B0052CAZ2O/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1324452304&sr=8-5


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

Just my 0.02, but you would be cheaper getting a couple of bag clips from the supermarket. I find most coffee lovers will get through a bag in around 2 weeks. Storage in a closed bag is adequate for whole beans, ground on demand. For pre-ground I don't think it makes much difference, as you are going to lose flavour as soon as it is ground, and keeping it as close to cool & dry as possible will slow the degradation. Think of your coffee as you would with bread









My experience with vacuum containers is that they very seldom retain the vacuum for very long and you end up with an expensive tin with a fancy lid


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## coffeeone (Dec 11, 2011)

lol no one wants just a fancy lid.

well i have ordered some bag clips. Not sure what they look like but i guess you use those to seal the bag the beans come in? cheers for the tuppence.

i was always under the impression it was advisable to store the beans in the freezer but looking on this site that appears to also be a no-no?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Freezing and defrosting/grinding frim frozen is apparently ok (but I wouldn't risk it personally) but freezing, defrosting, freezing, defrosting etc isn't. Condensation.


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## coffeeone (Dec 11, 2011)

i see that makes sense. You say that apparently it is ok to freeze and then instantly grind the beans? May i ask why you would not risk it?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I would need to be convinced that frozen beans could be cut with the same effectiveness as unfrozen beans, for one thing. It may result in the grind sizes not being as good. I would also worry that frozen grinds would lower the brew temperature in the basket by a degree or two.

Must point out, I have no evidence to support these concerns.


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## coffeeone (Dec 11, 2011)

thanks for the explanation. I may try both frozen and unfrozen at some stage as a test.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Cool. Please let us know the results


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Trouble is with freezing anything(especially plant based), it damages the cellular structure, due to the cell wall and plasma membrane becoming brittle while the insides expand and contract, In theory then it would leave the already chemically vollatile bean A) containing effectively 'dead' cells and B) with breached plasma membrane the proteines will oxidise almost immediately apon thawing or even react with or be further damaged by hot water and the chemicals in it. Imagine freezing a carrot for example(obviously without processing it first like they do in the frozen veg factory) and then boiling it, what you will end up with is a disgusting mess. I know that a roasted coffee bean will contain less 'watery' cells than a fresh vegetable but the same principle will still apply to variable degrees.

This is why I wouldn't chance my precious beans in the freezer!


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