# Hi Guys



## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

I just wanted to get some help on the new Rancillo Silvia E (2016) for a first time user or beginner.

Please forgive me if these q's sound simple but some is for my peace of mind if anything.

Is it that the steam wand has to be turned off for the machine to heat up? I only use the machine for double espresso

How long to heat and what to sign to look for (E model has a orange and green light orange on top green on bottom)

Does the portafilter have to be straight, and are the spouts supposed to be angled? say im standing in front of the machine the portafilter is always angled and not centered.

How much pressure to lock the portafilter in? Do I need to hands, does it have to be straight? Im using a double basket

And if there is anything else I need to know, like how much should I prime the machine. I only use filtered water

If you could help me answer these questions I would be very much appreciative.

Regards

Garry


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Hi Garry.

I don't know that machine but I'd say the following:

I'd expect the portafilter to lock in at "6 o'clock" but it doesn't matter if it's not straight as long as the thing is locked in reasonably and isn't going to pop out. Which if it's that bad it's the wrong handle - unlikely if it came with the machine. You should never use 2 hands to lock in. It only needs to be nipped up gently.

Steam wand should be off otherwise it will either drip water (if you mean the steam tap) or overheat the water to make steam (if you mean the 'steamer on' button). For double espresso you don't need the steam at all.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Im coming from a baby Gaggia, this is a slight step up. A little less forgiving on grind etc. I thought as much about the angle and locking of portafilter. Cheers for that


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

I do have to say it is not even close to the 6oclock mark (without 2 hands or any kind of pressure)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Seems a bit odd. Is the machine brand new? There's not any packing left inside the group is there? Or are you using a non-standard basket or anything? Some aftermarket baskets sit a little higher than the originals which could cause that, and some aftermarket naked portafilter handles don't have the same exact machining on the lugs. But with a brand new machine and all the bits as supplied, I would expect an easy 6 o'clock lock in (or near as dammit). Sometimes the group gasket needs to be seated properly. Have a look up there and see if it looks straight and as you'd expect. Might need reseating but really I'm a bit puzzled.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

The machine was brand new, and I am using the basket which came with the machine as well as the PF


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

I just checked underneath again and cleaned. Actually I dont have to put an AWFUL amount of pressure to get to 6oclock, but with coffee in it, its another story.

Either way the spout is still not straight, I dont know what to make of that. And also my dosing may be a bit off, I know there is a level on the basket, after tamp should reach that level, im usually a bit over.

It took a few uses to get it to go anywhere close to 6oclock, I hear that is normal


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## PeteHr (Nov 18, 2015)

One thing to be careful of here - well I assume the Silvia you have is essentially the same as the V3 I owned for 6 years.... It's very easy to over-dose the baskets (especially the single, which I never had any success with). If with coffee in the basket it is locking in further from 6 Oclock then it sounds like you are over-dosing. Check the centre of the puck as the screw holding the shower screen in stands proud and is the first thing to come into contact with the puck. Another thing to be careful of is if you over-dose the basket enough when you try pulling a shot you can get some serious leakage from between the basket and gasket.

And for sure, keep the steam turned off otherwise unless you are actually using steam as the water will be way too hot for espresso !

BTW, from band new, my Silvia portafilter never locked in at 6 Oclock - quite a bit to the left. Until I changed the group head gasket at which point it locked in around 6. You shouldn't need to use a lot of force to lock the portafilter in BTW....


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

How long do you think I should give it until I change the group head gasket? I only got the machine today lol. I made 2 double espressos the first seemed great and the second a bit fast, but no hole in the middle after extraction


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Group gaskets take a few uses to bed in sometimes, but then they last maybe a year or so depending on how often your machine is on, for how long, and how much pressure you subject it to when locking in. (Ideally not much just enough to get a seal). They also last longer if you keep them clean of grounds but use a wet cloth or a group cleaning brush and not anything sharp. They are deemed 'consumables' and are cheap but you should get a couple of years out of it. They get brittle, start to crack and become more difficult to remove after a long time, and maybe start to leak due to the hardness not allowing a good seal with the basket. But you can ignore that for now.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

I always clean with my pallo brush


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## PeteHr (Nov 18, 2015)

I'm not suggesting you change the gasket - just pointing out that with my machine the portafilter never locked anywhere near 6 oclock until I eventually (after quite some time) changed the gasket (because it was worn). I guess the new gasket was a bit thinner than the original.... Anyway, it shouldn't make any difference so I wouldn't worry about it !

Again, my Silvia was a V3 so things could have changed (does the screw holding the shower screen still stand proud on the V4 ?).

If the extraction is too fast it's usually caused by either too coarse a grind (are you using a good burr grinder ?), under-dosing, or too light a tamp.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Not sure how I would expect not an expert


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

I use rocky grinder, zero point is zero and usually go for a nine, but gonna try 8 tomorrow. Coffee fresh and contained, if bought in bulk frozen and used within 3 months as says on packet (Has Bean)


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Im still concerned about the spout which is so crooked. Is that normal? I shouldnt have to adjust it ill try to post a picture later heating the machine now


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Where are you based? If nearby I might be able to swing by and take a look for you


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Im based in London


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

DM me your postcode

I am in North London (Stanmore)


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Was getting the dreaded holes in the puck today. Certain im dosing too high. I use 1 and a half aeropress sized scoops. Any less and I couldnt push the grinds off with my finger. Also there was leakage from one shot I think the portafilter was at about 8 o clock again with pressure I could push it further but would have got a bigger hole.

I hope im not boring or annoying y'all with the questions lol. Just this is trying my patience and I have turned the machine off for the day. Used a 250g bag of beans for practice


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Do you have a set of scales? (ideally to 0.1g)

This will help get the weight consistent

Then dosing work is needed before tamping technique to achieve good extractions.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

I dont have any scales yet. I tried dosing 2 aeropress scoops of ground coffee (they are supposed to be 7g) but was too much, so I now have gone back to one and a half. Since this is the more energy efficient 'E' model (new for 2016) the machine seems to turn itself off after 30 minutes (the amount of time I usually take to heat the boiler)

I dont have a PID fitted


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Would suggest returning the machine - that will never be any good for making coffee.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Lol. After one day? Too much inconvienience, plus I have a 2 year warranty with Bella Barista. If I cant find the help I need on here I will ask them. There is always temp surfing I guess. But for now just wanna get the dose and tamp correct, locked in fully. That is my main concern


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Can you disable the 'auto off after 30 mins' function?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I doubt there is a function to turn off the 'energy saver' mode as it's only there due to EU law. I'm still confused as to why Garry's standard PF and basket locks in at 8pm though.

Garry, you say the PF will lock in ' almost straight' when empty, but not with coffee. Are you sure (given your comment about scoops) that you're not over-filling the basket? There should be a good few (6-8?) mm of headroom after you've tamped.


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## Cirya (Jan 2, 2016)

Christiangaz777 said:


> I dont have any scales yet. I tried dosing 2 aeropress scoops of ground coffee (they are supposed to be 7g) but was too much, so I now have gone back to one and a half.


One Aeropress scoop is roughly 16 to 18 grams depending on the roast level. You must've been dosing close to 25 grams. The Silvia standard double basket holds around 14 to 17 grams (edit: mentioned 20+ grams earlier, but that stands for the aftermarket 18g basket only). There will be quite a lot headspace but that is all needed. Try just one AP scoop next and see what happens. There shouldn't be huge tightness difference attaching the portafilter with or without coffee in it.

Everything related to coffee will be very much easier with a scale


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Ok I will try one scoop next time. The PF locks in straight when empty, not too much pressure. But have been using both hands. Maybe its a dosing issue, still my concern is the spouts


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Can you post a photo of the spouts?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Some pictures might be handy. Of the basket after tamping, of the portafilter when locked in, and of the spout issue. Hope your scales arrive soon or you'll never know how much to put in that basket!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You can unscrew the spouts and glue them back on straight. That's no biggy. Sounds like you're overdosing thoughb but you really need scales


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Glue them on straight? SO I have to use glue. Wow. That sucks. Anyway here is a picture of the PF with spouts ive given up on the machine for today.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Oh, that's what you mean by wonky.

Padded vice grips will help you move them straighter.

Some PTFE tape wrapped around the thread will also work to adjust the angle when you have removed.

Some portafilters have snap on snap off spouts that you can reposition also.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Hmm. Maybe my dad has one/some. I dont think this is a snap on/off. I take it I adjust the spout with the grips whilst it is on there right? Maybe silly question


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Ha kind of! Yeah if they're the screw-on type of spouts, wrap them in leccy tape and put them in a fixed vice (better still use blocks of wood between spouts and vice jaws), and twist the portafilter to get them to the correct angle. You might have to undo them and put a bit of plumbers tape like Glenn said, so they go tight when at the correct angle. Alternatively I would say seeing as it is so new, if messing about with vices etc seems unreasonable, contact the retailer and ask for one to be sent where the spouts are correctly aligned. It's sloppy assembly really and should be dealt with under warranty. It should be quicker and easier just to do it yourself but I agree you shouldn't have to, and the spouts can be on pretty tight - there would come a point where if they didn't budge I'd ask for a new PF rather than risk breaking it. But if they're not on too tight it'll be easier just to do it.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

I cant see any screw. I have a feeling it is glued on, anyway if my Dad cant do anything with it ill contact the supplier


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

You won't see it, it will be hidden under the metal when tightened.

As the gasket (seal) wears they will no longer be aligned to the cups as the handle will move towards the right further.

For now, just place the cups in a different position. win/win


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

View attachment 18778


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

This is what screw on means.

Edit Jeebsy beat me to it.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

That's the standard offset on the Rancilio domestic PF... Nothing needs adjusting there.









The Group handle shouldn't be any harder to lock in loaded than unloaded, if it is you are overdosing. (Which will jam up the screen & stop dispersal)

For a fairly fluffy coarser grind (not compressed at all) you are probably going to be full before and at the VSTs ridge (if there, probably about your tamper's depth if not) after the tamp... On a finer grind you'll be lower still.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

As the portafilter should lock in at around 5-6pm, you'll find that the 'wonky' spouts become correctly aligned spouts when you're locked in and pouring into two cups on the drip tray.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

MrShades said:


> As the portafilter should lock in at around 5-6pm, you'll find that the 'wonky' spouts become correctly aligned spouts when you're locked in and pouring into two cups on the drip tray.


What he said


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for everything guys. I wonder, if finer grind for fresher beans means a better cup. Before I was using grind level 9 for my baby Gaggia, ive switched to a 7 for grind consistency. I do volunteer at a cafe but its hard to practice during shift, plus they moved me to washing and clearing lol.

If anyone is around London then would be good if someone can show me how to use the machine and get the best cup, ill pay for travel obviously. And compensation for time


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Not sure what the question is there... generally as the beans age, you can get a gusher - you would tighten up the grind (finer) to get the same extraction (same weight of extracted coffee out in same time). REALLY good idea not to change more than one thing at a time when you are trying to zero in on anything... the grind is the parameter you would change.

I'd have a read of the newbies section, there are a couple of guides for beginners which are invaluable.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios&highlight=beginners+guide

I would grab a set of scales from fleabay - a fiver will buy you the set in the first pic of part 2 above... then at least you will be able to accurately measure what you are doing, this will make learning to use an espresso machine a lot easier.

If you pick a bean, & grab a month's worth, (Rave do super beans at very reasonable rates,) same bean will take one more variable out of the equation.

That should get you off to a start... there are a few on here who do training if not.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Thanks for that. Just an update. I tried dosing less and can lock the PF in now, puck is a bit wet, but also took a massive dive and tried a 5 level grind on my rocky, all seemed good. The shot tasted bitter, but seemed to be coming out ok.

I have ordered some scales and 2 shot glasses with measurements on them, I think that would help to lock down the dosing and the time it takes to pull a double shot. Would also be good to see the coffee coming out into clear shot glasses so I can keep an eye on colour.


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## Cirya (Jan 2, 2016)

Nice to hear that you ordered those scales. Things getting lot easier to follow. About those shot glasses, it's nice that they're clear so you can check the amount of crema and see how the shot takes form in the glass. BUT I would highly recommend to ignore the measuring lines in them and focus entirely on shot weight. It is nice to learn what volume roughly translates to what weight, but take that only as a guideline, since every shot has a bit different density. Weight is the way to go when dialing in and adjusting the flavour.


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## Christiangaz777 (Mar 4, 2014)

Heh yeah its hard to know what to ask got some many q's buzzing


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Christiangaz777 said:


> Heh yeah its hard to know what to ask got some many q's buzzing


ROFL occupational hazard, I'm afraid...

As a rule of thumb, bitter may mean over-extracted (possibly grinding too fine) sour may mean under-extracted (possibly too coarse).

Until you get your scales, play with those parameters (same heat, surfing 30s after the light goes off, same rough fluid out, aim for 30 seconds)

I would start by backing off (coarsen) the grind a little, to see what effect that has.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

oursus said:


> ROFL occupational hazard, I'm afraid...
> 
> As a rule of thumb, bitter may mean over-extracted (possibly grinding too fine) sour may mean under-extracted (possibly too coarse).
> 
> ...


Not always ...

You could have a really fine grind

Say 18g into 20g 25 seconds

This will be more than likely strong and nominally under extracted

The strength tho may lead you to confuse bitter and sour

Or actually they may be elements of under and over extraction in there









Action is may still be the same > coarsen grind







.

Plus bitter can be caused by temp ( too high )

Sour can be cause by channeling and temp ...etc etc


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

so does channeling cause

(1) over extraction as you end up with an espresso thats only utilised a tiny part of the puck and over extracted that portion of it

or

(2) under extraction, as the water that did go through the rest of the puck is greatly reduced as it was all going through the channel ?

or

(3) both ?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

h1udd said:


> so does channeling cause
> 
> (1) over extraction as you end up with an espresso thats only utilised a tiny part of the puck and over extracted that portion of it
> 
> ...


3


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Not always ...
> 
> You could have a really fine grind
> 
> ...


ROFL, trying to unbuzz some of the questions here Boots!!


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Would explain why they taste so bad when it all goes wrong !


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Not always ...
> 
> Or actually they may be elements of under and over extraction in there etc


So to derail the thread for a sec Boots:

Adjusting grind a tad as getting to the Butt end of a kg of foundry RMR, getting the loss of complexity expected, acidity still there, maybe more citrus than berry, losing some of the mouthfeel & funk, chocolate notes still there though, not too much aftertaste. Is this just an ever shrinking sweet-spot, or can I do something different?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

h1udd said:


> so does channeling cause
> 
> (1) over extraction as you end up with an espresso thats only utilised a tiny part of the puck and over extracted that portion of it
> 
> ...


1 -2 and or 3









Terms get bandied about

It's under and over etc

Really want we are tying to achieve a balance

But We are talking about nominal under and over extraction

Based on samples of people who tasted coffee said what they liked and measurements of extraction yield from years ago before vst etc

So it's 18-20 ish depending on the coffee association

But there is tasty at other areas and measurements - people do and will enjoy really short shots- nominally under extracted but tasty to that person all the same and that's absolutely fine @MWJB has a really good way of boiling it down but I can't remember the quote

Plus it's about understanding the adjustments to make based on the taste and the recipe to get to the taste you want to enjoy - not whether I call it under or over or Derek


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

oursus said:


> So to derail the thread for a sec Boots:
> 
> Adjusting grind a tad as getting to the Butt end of a kg of foundry RMR, getting the loss of complexity expected, acidity still there, maybe more citrus than berry, losing some of the mouthfeel & funk, chocolate notes still there though, not too much aftertaste. Is this just an ever shrinking sweet-spot, or can I do something different?


What was the brew ratio and in what time ?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> What was the brew ratio and in what time ?


18:38 30s (without consulting)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

oursus said:


> 18:38 30s (without consulting)


And you have got good result before on this recipe other this coffee ?

As coffee ages you can find you need a little finer Grind to keep hitting where you want to be ( same BR perhaps longer time of shot as a result )

Mouthfeel could be loss of strength - mouth feel is a hard one to gauge


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Looks like the shots are little longer than that - 18:40-42, only been timing one, possibly 2 shots max a day, so the timing is a bit of a guess... but yes, does that differ greatly from your recipe? I'm sure it's been discussed ad infinitum, but with the more complex flavour profiles of SO/ lighter roasts, & the purchase of a more competent grinder recently, the quest for "Derek" has become more of a source of delight/irritation


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Well that's a bit of a difference to 30 seconds ... Add a drop of water to the shot - does It make it easier to tell where the imbalance is ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Loss of complexity could be down to strength or coffe just aging


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Sorry Boots 40-42g out, still in 30s, Water is an excellent suggestion, don't know why I didn't think of it myself (really don't drink a lot of long blacks/americanos any more) but would do exactly that for a whisky - simple answers = best!! Cheers mate, off to try that now


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