# Designing the perfect vessel to consume brewed (& espresso) coffee



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Following on from Jim's 'cup size' thread...

Riedel have created 100s of wine glasses shaped for particular varietals of grape and styles. You couldnt appreciate the full differences between a cheap n cheerful aussie fruit-bomb cabernet and a fine delicate Pinot from Burgundy if they both were drunk out of pint glasses filled to the top, you just couldnt. The glass shape defines the ability to deliver aroma and flavour...5 years ago I would have said bullsh1t but now being more experienced in wine and owning several shapes, I have tested it to be true.

When it comes to coffee there must be an ideal shape and size to maximise aroma and flavour. I wonder if anyone has explored this.

Thoughts? Maybe some home experiments and feedback on here could drive something....


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## JamesG (Mar 29, 2012)

I did read somewhere that curved bottoms (on the inside of the vessel) are meant to be better than flat, but for the life of me I can't remember where.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

We talked previously about how a wide rim can help spread flavour over the entire tongue rather than missing the receptors... works for me.

But I do thing there's something more in this. In my experience brewed coffees with big body and mouthfeel are great to gulp in my massive Tigger mug, whereas bright coffees work nicely in a 6oz cup or petite class (hmm makes me think... maybe the latest IMM from Paris is influencing me!).


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

I agree, there is definitely more to this, and I think you are right, certain shapes and sizes will suit different coffees, I just don't know the science behind it!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I know Steve (Has Bean) did some video'd testing of coffee in wine glasses.

We find the wine drinking experience is doubled with the correct size and shape glass, very often I measure the quality of a restaurant based on the glasses on the table. Those annoying basic 'pub' ones are useless, you might aswell be drinking a 2.99 Table wine from them never mind a 15 quid+ bottle of something reasonable.

I feel the coffee drinking experience could also be heightened with some well researched designs, especially brewed coffee.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Same thing applies to beer. Aside from branding, this is one of the reasons that Belgian beers have associated glasses. The shape is designed to show off the beer at its best. For example, I believe Framboise is usually best served in a fluted glass (similar to a champagne flute) with a very narrow opening. Duval is served in a bell shaped glass which has something to do with the bubbles.

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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Champagne flutes are long and thin in order to give a smaller liquid/air interface where gas can escape, which would reduce mouthfeel.

Not sure about brewed coffee but certainly for espresso I've noticed the crema disperses quicker in wider cups and you certainly lose some mouthfeel/body, partly due to more crema lost to the side of the cup (which obviously is more surface area).

I've read things saying crema is bad but for me the standard espresso shot glass preserves crema well and delivers a good mouthfeel, as you'd expect.

Most shots I find have a very small amount of super fine particulates left at the very bottom of the shot glass. I wonder if vessel design could factor these in to deliver better taste?

For brewed, wouldn't you want to reduce heat loss in the cup?


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

The taste bud theory is an interesting one and one very much argued by scientists. Recent findings suggest that taste buds for the 5 'basic tastes' are randomly dispersed over the tongue and not grouped into certain areas as previously believed.

If you have a strong bodied coffee, that you need to lessen the impact of you would need a vessle that would delivery the coffee towards the back of the mouth, thus missing many of the taste buds, a cup with a wide opening usually has this effect. Anything with a lighter taste that you want to maximise then you probably want something more like a shot glass that will deliver it to the tip of the tongue first.

While this would cover the basic tastes from the coffee there are also other factors to consider. The mouthfeel is important in coffee, again, it makes sense that anything with a good mouthfeel should be delivered of the front of the mouth, so you effectively get as much in as possible, anything with a less appealing mouthfeel would probably best sent to the back of the mouth.

The other important factors is the aromatic qualities. Our tongue can only taste sweet, sour, acidic, salt and Unami (savoury). Therefore all those chocolatey, nutty, earthy notes that we get come from the volatile compounds in the coffee (smells). These can be picked up in two ways. Firstly the initial smell before it enters your mouth, and secondly as your throat connects to your nose, the smells that would enter your nose that way. Your guess is as good as mine to what glasses would emphasise this in anyway.

Essentially most wine glasses are based more on how your hold it and appearance, however certain curves and most importantly the size of the opening does have an impact on how we perceive flavour. There is no reason this couldn't, and shouldn't be ignored for coffee.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I certainly think aroma is the key to the required size/shape of a cup as that is where most of the "taste" comes from. The cup should be narrow enough to send the aromas straight up the nose whilst simultaneously sipping. Not sure if that means it will depend on how big your conk is though?


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

In addition to diameter of the opening of the vessel, does the material, and its thickness, play a part? I know we all value thick, double walled cups for heat retention but are there perhaps other reasons for choosing a thicker walled vessel? Many people claim bone china is the best material for tea cups because it can be made very fine and affect the angle at which the beverage hits one's tastebuds.


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## JamesG (Mar 29, 2012)

Have you seen these cups by Offero: http://theoffero.com/Offero_Products_-_Espresso_Cup.html

They've just won one of the SCAA new product awards.

I'm guessing the rear rim is raised to help waft the aroma up to the nose. I hope they do left-handed versions or I'll be very disappointed.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Been thinking about this quite a bit recently...especially with regards to brewed...my current thinking is something along the lines of a brandy balloon in shape. A shallow rounded bottom, that never gets filled beyond the widest point. Ideally allowing you to swirl the coffee and combine the varying layers...or not. I mostly enjoy the journey from top to bottom of a cup...but am sometimes left wondering whether the sweeter, more syrupy components couldn't be accessed earlier?

Even wondering whether a rounded miso-style soup bowl would be good...if I could stand the teasing when replacing the lid between slurps to keep the heat in!? ;-)


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I brew into a pot then refill a cup maybe 100ml a go. I don't like having one big mug of anything, especially since you just have to wait for ages for it to cool down.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How do you find the taste varies from that first 100ml to the last from the pot? My thinking being you might be able to get a better cross section of the cup/brew with vessel that allows a good swirl between sips...or not, as is your pleasure? ;-)


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

It usually sweetens, and the flavours clarify. I put this down to the temperature change. I tend to give the whole jug a good swirl to get it cooling quicker.


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## gmason (Aug 9, 2012)

I remembered that a cup design company won the 'Peoples Choice Award' at the SCAA in Portland earlier this year. You can find details of the company at the following link. It's not quite in the same class as Riedel, but interesting all the same.

http://theoffero.com/Offero_Coffee_Cups.html


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Earlepap wrote: "It usually sweetens, and the flavours clarify. I put this down to the temperature change."

Sure, that's the variation I'm talking about, perhaps I'm just impatient and want the sweet stuff early . Cooling is a consideration, but I'm finding that when making a large brew, I drink an early cup...it cools, then I go back to the pot, get a hotter cup from the bottom of the pot (same brew) and even though it's hotter it's still sweeter...so I'm also considering that weight of the various components play their part too?

Thanks GMason, saw that link earlier, I'm left-handed, I get round this with, say, cameras by holding them upside down...it doesn't work so well with cups ;-)


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I get impatient too. I often find I'm initially disappointed by a brew and then when it's got 10-20c cooler end up really enjoying it.

Too late for today, but tomorrow I might make a couple aeropressssssss' into a pot, swirl one, not swirl the other. Take sips at specific points and compare.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Port sippers/brandy pipes?! Big ones, heat resistant?...for paper filtered brewed....not so much the French Press. ;-)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

"Been thinking about this quite a bit recently...especially with regards to brewed...my current thinking is something along the lines of a brandy balloon in shape. A shallow rounded bottom, that never gets filled beyond the widest point. Ideally allowing you to swirl the coffee and combine the varying layers...or not."

OK, complete turnaround on this one!







Made a brew this morning & divvied up between a mug and a bowl (bowl looked great, assessing colour of the brew, lots of good swirling). The bowl actually seemed to amplify the earlier, less desirable components, perhaps due to the wider rim & more liquid being taken off the top of the beverage? Still preferred the mug as the brew got sweeter (switching from one to the other as volume reduced). So mugs seem to work for coffee...who'd have thunk?









Possible improvement? I'm going to try some steel straws, so I can start from the bottom up...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I thought I was obsessive! This is why bowls are used for cupping (to find fault) and mugs for drinking (to enjoy).

I have approx 10 different shaped Riedle wine glasses and 5 beer/ale glasses...maybe a huge side by side tasting is needed


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

"I thought I was obsessive!" Ha ha! Don't be too hurt if I say that's perhaps not a competition I'm overly keen on winning! But, fair do's, when I get an itch...I can't sleep/function right til I give it a good scratch!









After trawling through site after site of receptacles & modelling excercises (OK, drawing shapes on bits of paper & determining 'angle of dangle' during drinking) my latest thinking (for the nextfew hours at least, ...maybe at most) is...wait for it...a regular highball shaped glass/cup (....though, possibly a Pilsener style vessel, with a slight flare at the top?) Why leave square one? Square one's quite comfy really.









Still going to try the straw idea though. Was thinking about a vessel with a little well at the bottom to collect heavier elements...but really, when you're at the bottom, there's ...er...nowhere lower to go...









Be keen to see what you arrive at Gary if you do the glasses test.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Arcoroc Bock glasses, available from http://www.drinkstuff.com in the coffee glasses section (unsurprisingly)...the "well" at the bottom does a reasonable job of collecting silt in, say a FP brew (just so you can see it & avoid it). A steel straw rests nicely here too, so you can compare drinking from the top, or the bottom with a filtered brew.


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