# Europiccola journey



## Django

Yesterday my Europiccola arrived. It's a pre-millenium model that I picked up for a pretty reasonable price. I've had a Classic for a few years now and fancied a change. I've read that having a lever machine gets you very in touch with the whole process of espresso making, and this definitely appeals. It's also smaller and prettier!

The first few shots weren't amazing. I'm using roughly the same level of grind as I was with the Classic, with a Super Jolly grinder. However the first shot shouldn't pull without a lot of force and then came out quite quickly towards the end. Channeling? I've dosed down to 12g, from about 15g. Does this sound sensible? I'm still not getting much crema on the shot, much less than the Classic produced. I've tried grinding finer and tamping a bit softer but that's not really got me anywhere. Are you supposed to meet a significant amount of resistance before the shot pours? I've read that you should see some drops of coffee emerge from the filter during the preinfusion. Is this true? I'm yet to experience that.

Another thing, should the OPV be making a noise constantly? I'll attach a video for your opinions.






Any tips, in comparison to using the Classic?

Thanks


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## Django

Here are a few photos from my most-recent, and best actually, shot. I did take a video too but my memory ran out.

Not so much crema, as you can see. An improvement on before but still not brilliant. It was a teensy bit sour and not much mouth feel.


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## Mrboots2u

Hi re crema...what beans are you using and how.long from roast date. In itself crema isn't a massive indicator of ectraction quality ( might signify beans are less than fresh tho)


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## Django

Hiya. They're HasBean Rwandan beans. Roasted 16th May. Annoyingly, I ran out of my last beans just as this machine came, so I couldn't even compare from Classic to Euro with the same beans. I don't normally use HasBean, I use UE Roasters. But a local cafe were selling HasBean so I thought I'd try some. The UE beans were lovely. Highly recommended. My third bag of them, I think. Very rich, smooth and chocolatey. Bitter in a good way.


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## Mrboots2u

Which Rwandan is it , I can't tell from the photo. This one ? http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/rwanda-kigoma-washed-red-bourbon

These may be a significantly different taste from your previous beans . If lighter in roast then the temperature of extraction may have pronounced effect than the darker type roast you were using ....


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## Django

Yeah that's them. Do you think it's just the bean?


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## Mrboots2u

Django said:


> Yeah that's them. Do you think it's just the bean?


It would need a different grind , and perhaps extraction ratio to what you are using for the darker bean .

I'm am talking generally as I haven't got your machine . I do know that you need to manage the temperature quite closely on one ( as you do on any machine ) .

Perhaps one of the lever experts - coffeechap will pop up and give some advice in how to get the npbest from a lighter roast on this machine .


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## Orangertange

dose at 14 gs for starters , pre in-infuse for a few seconds, from your pic you may need to grind a bit finer, looks like you've got to much liquid in the glass, I used end up with less than that with a Fellini move, and go buy the second shot, first one's always a bit watery, second shot is the one in the goldilocks zone


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## Django

I don't think I'm overly keen on this bean. I'll be making a trip back to the deli to get some more of the Ue Kenyan beans soon.

Thanks for the tips guys.

MrBoots - how do I control the temperature on a La Pavoni? I was under the impression that it has a thermostat, which will turn off the boiler when it hits a certain temp. (Just like the Classic had). I have been temperature surfing with the La Pavoni. But I keep reading about overheating. How does this happen if there's a thermostat? I have a temp sticker on the way, actually.

Orangertange - I did dose at 14g initially and the grind was finer, but that just made it really hard to pull, until about half way when it started running through easily. I assumed I was creating massive channeling. Also, what's a Fellini move? Sounds interesting! I don't really want to have to make two shots just to get one good one


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## Charliej

Django, the overheating mentioned is the group head itself overheating as it is directly attached to the boiler which is constantly at steam temp I believe it uses a pressure stat for temp control, a lot of people seem to buy one the liquid crystal thermometer strips and attach those to the group itself so they can tell how hot the group is, some people also wrap a wet tea towel around the group to try and help it stay cooler, there is also a guy from either Holland or Germany who makes what is basically a heatsink that attaches to the group.


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## Django

Ah I see. That makes sense. I do have a LC thermometer strip in the post, luckily. A heatsink sounds a bit overkill for the amount of coffee I make - one espresso at a time.

Regarding the portafilter, I am used to the Classic PF which holds onto the basket. This PF is a bloody nuisance! Basket falling out left right and centre. Not the biggest quibble in the world but is it a necessary evil or can I get another PF with a mechanism to hold the basket in place? I'm after a naked PF for the La Pavoni really but can't fins any online (49mm).


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## Django

Orangertange, when I initially dosed at 14g, the basket was overloaded. I think I have a double basket, do I need a triple to get 14g in?


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## coffeechap

I have some larger baskets for the la Pavoni if you are interested


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## Django

Yeah potentially. What sizes? What other gizmos do you sell for the Euro?

The steaming power of this thing is awesome! I'm not really a massive milky coffee fan but this macchiato was pretty good.

Excuse the skanky kitchen. Shared student house


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## Django

The boiler has a tendency to pivot a little on the base. Does anyone know the best way to address this?


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## Orangertange

pretty sure I used to get 14gs in my double basket, but always use quite dark roasts, and mine is a post millenium so maybe the basket is a bit larger,

as for the Fellini (think that's what it is,) push the lever down, until coffee begins to come through the (about a third of the way then pull up to let the group refill and pull the shot, you kinda get a feel for it after a while, and as for the strain on the base, try holding the porter filter with one hand, and push lever with the other, should be able to do it (with a bit of resistance) with the palm of your hand,

hope that helps


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## coffeechap

The millennium versions have bigger basket and polymer pistons, the base can be tightened by using an oil filter wrench


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## Django

Orangertange said:


> pretty sure I used to get 14gs in my double basket, but always use quite dark roasts, and mine is a post millenium so maybe the basket is a bit larger,
> 
> as for the Fellini (think that's what it is,) push the lever down, until coffee begins to come through the (about a third of the way then pull up to let the group refill and pull the shot, you kinda get a feel for it after a while, and as for the strain on the base, try holding the porter filter with one hand, and push lever with the other, should be able to do it (with a bit of resistance) with the palm of your hand,
> 
> hope that helps


Thanks, I'll give that a go when I pull the next shot. I wish it would stop raining so I could go and buy some more beans!


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## Django

Is an oil filter wrench the one with the leather strap? What size should I get? There's one on amazon at 57-65mm. How would that do?

What other Euro stuff do you sell, CoffeChap?


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## Django

Another shot: I tried the Fellini thing, not sure if I did it right though! Dosed again at 12g and went a bit finer on the grind. I realise I went over the 2oz mark but I got a bit carried away!

Result - a slightly sour, watery shot.


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## Orangertange

Don't think you need to bother with Fellini is your only dosing 12 grams.


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## Django

Sure thing.

Back from the deli. They didn't have the Kenyan Peaberry beans I wanted







I plumped for the house espresso blend. Results are better but still not a massive amount of crema and just lacking that full body and bitternes I am used to. Might grind finer and see what happens. No more coffee this evening though!


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## Orangertange

What deli are you using

Do the beans you buy have a roast date on them?


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## Django

They do indeed.

Actually, I've just checked and they were roasted on the 27th March! Normally they're always about a week old when I buy them. I've stopped checking to be honest. Good call sir. I'll be making my way back to the deli today for a swap!


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## Orangertange

Hehe that'll be why there's no crema


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## Django

School boy error.

The deli guy was cool about it and swapped the stale little bastards from some fresh beans.

Here is the result. Better but not amazing.

Some questions:

- should the OPV be constantly noisy?

- should I see coffee drip from the PF whilst pre-infusing?

- should I carry on aiming for 30lb of pressure, like with the classic?


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## lespresso

Django said:


> School boy error.
> 
> The deli guy was cool about it and swapped the stale little bastards from some fresh beans.
> 
> Here is the result. Better but not amazing.
> 
> Some questions:
> 
> - should the OPV be constantly noisy? no.
> 
> - should I see coffee drip from the PF whilst pre-infusing? no.
> 
> - should I carry on aiming for 30lb of pressure, like with the classic? no.


probably stating the obvious, but anyway -

how long after you pulled the shot did you take the image? - crema will die away if you take too long

pre-infusion shouldnt exceed 10s in my opinion, and probably 7s is any length of time

grind fine, tamp light

a very short flush (20-30mL) before you pull the first shot (from a cold start) may help you achieve a better brew temp

observe ceteris paribus at all times - i.e. get back to the coffee you know and love and work from there - jumping in with a coffee you are unfamiliar with is making it unnecessarily difficult for yourself

the fact you can't get 14g sitting at a sensible height in the basket suggests you aren't grinding fine enough (as does dripping during PI) and having to tamper with excessive pressure to try and compensate - tip: get the grinder to do your work for you!

let us know how you get on as i am a big fan of LPs and you will get excellent espresso out of it once you develop a process and stick to it

r.


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## Django

Thanks for the input









These photos are taken only a few seconds after the pull.

The OPV is constantly noisy. Maybe I need to take it apart and have a look? My first post had a video of the noise. Would you mind having a look?

The La Pavoni manual says that dripping should occur during the preinfusion. I've yet to see it though. Guess that's a good thing though. I've tried tamping lighter and grinding a bit finer. The shot started better but ended up similar to the ones before it. Tomorrow I'll tamp even lighter and grind even finer.

It's not that I'm trying to compensate by tamping hard, I'm just carrying on my old ways from the Classic. I will repent, promise!

I have a premillenium LP, which apparently have smaller baskets. Maybe this is why 14g won't go in?

Out of interest, how lightly do you tamp?


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## Mrboots2u

Very lightly 2lbs or so using fingers only for pressure but key is level and consistent each time really


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## Django

Wow that's light! I think I'll need to practise on some scales.


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## lespresso

Django said:


> Thanks for the input
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These photos are taken only a few seconds after the pull. *Ok, good.*
> 
> The OPV is constantly noisy. Maybe I need to take it apart and have a look? My first post had a video of the noise. Would you mind having a look? *Yes, i did; it shouldn't be leaking - the valve needs to be serviced*
> 
> The La Pavoni manual says that dripping should occur during the preinfusion. *- I respectfully disagree*
> 
> I've yet to see it though. Guess that's a good thing though. I've tried tamping lighter and grinding a bit finer. The shot started better but ended up similar to the ones before it. Tomorrow I'll tamp even lighter and grind even finer.
> 
> It's not that I'm trying to compensate by tamping hard, I'm just carrying on my old ways from the Classic. I will repent, promise!
> 
> I have a premillenium LP, which apparently have smaller baskets. Maybe this is why 14g won't go in? *i would be surprised if your basket can't hold 14g as it is the 'classic' italian dose for a double basket*
> 
> Out of interest, how lightly do you tamp?


I think your brew temp is too low, especially if you are using lighter roasts (which are fine, but need a higher brew temp than a dark roast), which is why I suggest a short flush of about 20mL before you dose the portafilter and pull your shot (assuming it is a cold start) - this will bring sweetness into the shot

If you raise your dose to 14g the brew weight will drop, which you need it to (based on the video at least) and I think you will be happier with the results

The temp strip will help you considerably too when it arrives

reiss


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## lespresso

Mrboots2u said:


> Very lightly 2lbs or so using fingers only for pressure but key is level and consistent each time really


+1, but you don't need scales to determine your tamp pressure, just go lightly - treating it as little more than smoothing and levelling exercise, not a gym session


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## Django

Right. I've taken all of this on board and tried to replicate the tips you've all given. I dosed to 13g, as a test, and that seemed to be okay, although there were some slight marks on the puck surface from the screen. Is this okay?

I ground finer, and tamped very lightly. The resultant espresso had more body to it but was still a tad sour. And still I'm missing that crema.

I've always pulled a small amount through the brew head prior to the shot. But when the strip arrives I'll have a clearer indication of brew temp.

Is it possible to service the OPV myself?


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## aFiercePancake

It is normal for the OPV to make noise constantly once the temperature is up to operating range. If it is open during heatup, there definitely is a problem. Very likely just stuck.

I do not remember fiddling with the thermostat when I had mine, but maybe someone on the forum knows how to test it. Your descriptions suggest the boiler is not getting water hot enough.

I would not bother with any fancy techniques with the La Pavoni. Single shot, enjoy. Maybe try 1.5 shots once you master it, but give yourself time to learn the machine first.

Be careful with beans and dates. The date might reflect when the beans were packed-not when they were roasted.

I have found lever machines work very well with single-origin beans. A lever machine can extract a wide range of flavors from one bean. Start with one single-origin bean and play with dose, tamp, and pressure until you can consistently produce good shots. Then start trying other beans.

Any lever machine takes a while to learn well. The La Pavoni can take a little longer.


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## lespresso

an OPV that is failing to hold 0.8 bar will cause the issues you are having - i.e. the brew temp being too low

assuming your LP is not so old that it does not have a pressure stat, then the pressure stat should be turning the element on & off and if the OPV is in good condition it should not be opening if the boiler is running at normal operating pressure, e.g., 0.7-0.8 bar

it is true that the OPV on many LPs does chuff a bit and you can live with it, but yours is doing more than chuffing now and then - it is constantly open from the sound of your clip. getting a pressure gauge and a bit of flexible tubing to connect it to the end of the steam wand might be a relatively fast way to see what pressure your boiler is running at


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## Django

I'm not sure I can source a pressure gauge easily. Is it worth taking off the OPV and seeing if any bits are stuck?

I've emailed the seller to ask whether this was a problem for him. He sent a whole load of service documents with the machine. I'll see when the most recent one was.


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## Django

I took the OPV off to see what was going on. It didn't look clogged up, and the moving bit moved pretty freely. However, I gave it a quick soak on Pulycaff. After putting it back on, it did seem to make less noise on reaching brew temp but I'm not convinced all is well. Might the spring have lost a bit of its integrity?


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## Django

aFiercePancake said:


> It is normal for the OPV to make noise constantly once the temperature is up to operating range. If it is open during heatup, there definitely is a problem. Very likely just stuck.
> 
> I do not remember fiddling with the thermostat when I had mine, but maybe someone on the forum knows how to test it. Your descriptions suggest the boiler is not getting water hot enough.
> 
> I would not bother with any fancy techniques with the La Pavoni. Single shot, enjoy. Maybe try 1.5 shots once you master it, but give yourself time to learn the machine first.
> 
> Be careful with beans and dates. The date might reflect when the beans were packed-not when they were roasted.
> 
> I have found lever machines work very well with single-origin beans. A lever machine can extract a wide range of flavors from one bean. Start with one single-origin bean and play with dose, tamp, and pressure until you can consistently produce good shots. Then start trying other beans.
> 
> Any lever machine takes a while to learn well. The La Pavoni can take a little longer.


Thanks for this. The beans were roasted recently, not just packaged, so that removes a potential problem. I've been getting beans from this deli for a while, with the old Classic, and they've always been good.

Looking forward to the strip thermometer coming so I can get an idea of what is going on.

So should a single shot be easier to pull than a double? I don't think I've ever pulled a double in 3 years of espresso making!


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## Chriswilson

Hi Django - sounds like your LP is proving to be a bit more of a challenge than it should be - stick with it!

I would be inclined to replace the pressure valve and spring as they aren't expensive and will sort the lack of pressure.

As you have a problem with the boiler moving I would also be inclined to order one or two boiler seals at the same time.

This is because I found that the easiest way to tighten the boiler lock ring is to drop the boiler element out first.

That gives better access to the flange - and you might as well replace the big o ring while your there.

I read some sound advice regarding re-using seals - "The Flotation Test".

Put the old seal in a bucket of water, if it floats then re-use it.

I had to re-tighten mine every couple of months and it drove me nuts - so I've resorted to some light threadlock.

Good luck - it will be well worth it as these are superb machines.

cheers, cw


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## Django

Thanks Chris. I will persevere! I have another problem, too: the not nearest the boiler - part of the OPV mechanism - now is a tad loose and steam leaks from the neck of the boiler too! This is obviously from me removing the OPV mechanism. Bugger. It's very difficult to hold the internal nut to tighten, and so I've had to order a swivel-head ratchet spanner. 3-5 days delivery









I had a word with someone - probably well-known to this forum - who fixes LPs. He said that I might not need a whole new OPV mechanism and that I could try greasing the tiny o-ring, and reversing the red seal. I have done this but now with the neck leak I can't be sure what is going on! Bloody nightmare. Back to the cafetiere!

I'll wait for the spanner to come before I decide to get a new OPV valve. I was told that the seals harden with time and lead to loss of valve patency. Shame you can't just buy a seal but I suppose it's quite a niche item.

The LP was serviced a year ago. Do you think it will need a new boiler seal? I suppose I may as well get one. I'll get some threadlock too. What kind have you used?

Bloody nightmare!


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## Chriswilson

Sod's law dictates that if you don't replace the seal it'll leak........I'd also replace the brass washer that seals the OPV to the boiler - once you have your spanner it'll be a doddle.

I think any medium strength heat resistant threadlock should do the trick - don't go for the heavy duty stuff or you'll never get it apart again.

Also apply it sparingly, you don't want to end up with any in the boiler - no amount of grinding/tamping precision will get rid of that taste!

I think the actual valves are only a few quid if you decide to replace it.

cheers, cw


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## Django

Today has been a good day for coffee stuff. I've had a new tamper, a thermometer strip, some green beans, and an oil filter wrench in the post. Annoyingly, still no OPV or flex-headed ratchet spanner to tighten the OPV nuts. Hopefully tomorrow!

The group does get up to 90-110, so it should be okay for brewing. I've not tried today as I'm currently resorting to cafetiere - exams soon and no time to play with the LP.


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## Django

Guys, a question on pressure. I know we think that, due to a faulty OPV, I might not be getting sufficient in the boiler. But does this translate to grouphead pressure? I was under the impression that the group head pressure is a function of the lever pressure that I apply. I'll confess to being a medic, though, and not a physicist. The question is, now that I know that I can get to 95 degrees, should I be able to pull a good shot? I'm still lacking in crema, despite having ground to the point where the lever just won't pull.


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## Delfi

I got my second hand LaPav today. Perhaps i was lucky but got some v decent coffee out of it on the 3rd attempt. I went from a classic, and found that 12g and a coarser grind (relative to the 15g going through my gaggia w. VST) was the solution. Having read a bit about the grind was quite surprised to have to ease out. Dont know if thats any use - perhaps just ease up a little. Still not clear quite how 14g fits in this tiny little basket. (Mine looked like a pyramid when i finally balanced it all in).


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## Orangertange

If you can't pull the lever then your're way to fine (obviously) and too tight will produce less crema than in the sweet spot, if group is up to temp then should be fine, as you said you provide the pressure, strange, when was the machine last serviced? Does the handle judder when you lift it? should be hard not to get a creama with fresh beans


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## Django

Hi Delfi, thanks for the tip. I did try grinding a little coarser and actually the coffee was better. But still very little crema.

Orangertange, I've been oscillating around the sweet spot and not finding it. Too fine leads to choking, too coarse leads to a watery coffee. But still no crema. The crema that does appear seems to separate on the surface. I've even tried a new bag of beans, different roaster, and still no joy. The machine was serviced about a year ago. No judder. Perfectly smooth. I've even got the receipts Espresso Services from its services over the years.

The new OPV comes today or tomorrow but I can't see that being the issue anymore.


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## lespresso

hi there

im not sure at what stage you took the image above of the temp strip on the group, but if it is at idle i think it is too hot

its ok for the inlet water temp to spike very close to 100C briefly on the way in, but the idle group temp should be down in the mid 80s

i am now of the view that you can't get any crema because your system is too hot, not too cold

abandon the flush before the first shot from a cold start and see if that doesn't yield a better result

if it does then you need to turn the pressure-stat down

if you can't obtain a pressure gauge and a bit of flexible tubing in the Uk to allow you to connect it to the end of the steam wand, then Orphan Espresso in the US do sell such a thing - i think your investment would repay you many times over

best

reiss.


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## Django

Morning, I took the photo after pulling water through to see if I could get the group hot. When idle - after being on 5-10 minutes - it only just touches 90. I could do a better test though. Should I leave it on 10 minutes and see if it breaks 90? I've just ordered a new 60-90 temp strip, which should help matters.

Thanks Reiss.


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## Django

Right, I tried to pull a shot at a lower temp. Less than 90 but after a 10 minute warm up. Immediately, the shot looked better. However as it started to fill the shot glass, the crema decreased a lot. But the temp also reached 100. So does it look like this is an overhot machine?

Annoyingly, the new OPV valve has arrived today but the hissing at idle has stopped. I greased the tiny black o-ring on the OPV and it seems to have done the job. That's £15 wasted! I'll swap it out anyway.


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## Django

I think we might be onto something with the temperature theory. I left it to idle for 10 minutes and the strip read 100 on the group head. I then cooled it to less than 90 with a damp cloth and it pulled a reasonable shot for the first half of the pull, which turned bad towards the end. Conclusion: the boiler is too hot.

Solution?


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## lespresso

turn the pressure stat down, assuming it is one of the more recent models that has a pressure-stat

which will lead nicely into the next issue i suspect, which is i think LP try to seal the p-stats in position these days, although you can often break the seal if you are delicate in your approach

there is a place up in glasgow whose name i forget that supplies LP parts at fair prices - i'll see if i can find them for you

yes, these guys - http://www.espressoservices.co.uk/la_pavoni_.html

if you are unable to turn the pstat down you may need to replace it

btw, i don't think you wasted your money on replacing the OPV at all - these are service items and if the spring is tired it is only a matter of time before it starts leaking again

these LPs are so simple that they are easily maintained and will deliver you up great espresso for decades - you can't pull consecutive shots without them over-heating, but then a lot of people don't have the need to


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## coffeechap

If it is getting too hot, get one of these


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## Buckley

Dear Reiss and Django,

If you refer to the first, original post and its picture, Django has a two-switch element, premillenium machine without a pressurestat.

The way most use this machine is to turn on both switches (top to 'on', bottom to 'II') until the OPV releases. The OPV will hiss as long as the heater is on high ("II"). This is 'normal'. It does not require jacking around with the machine. As soon as the OPV hisses, the boliler is hot enough to preheat the group, assuming a cold start. You must preheat the group or your are going to have too cool, sour shots.

Django, I bet by this time you have had your fill of sour shots. If this is the case, don't be afraid to preheat the group. Turn the lower switch to low ('I'). By this time you have the basket tamped and ready but not in the PF. The empty PF is locked into the group. Raise the lever once or twice to preheat the group and let the water squirt out of the PF. Your liquid crystal temperature strip will indicate some temperature in the first or second square if you are ready to lock and load.

Reiss, this dinky group is not the 7 kg group that your wonderful machine uses to even out the infusions. I have an Europiccola similar to this machine - I also have your Londinium. This group head reads higher than the resulting brew temperture as the temperature is on the way up (ie, warming flushes) and reads cooler than the infusion temperature when the temperature is on the way down (ie, second pull on an already warm machine).

Django, if your shots are sour it is much more likely that your group is too cool rather than you are grinding too coarse, although either one is possible. On preinfusion, you really do not want to see any drip or more than 1 or 2, coming from the spout. If you are tired of sour shots, keep trying your pulls when the liquid crystal says the 90 degree block is blue. If still too sour, flush until the 95 degree block is blue. If sour, go to 100. Remeber to stop your flush early - the temperature will continue to coast upward from the steam condensing in the upper group and the blue square will develop after you stop - and you need time to gently put the basket in the PF, raise the lever partway, lock in the PF, then bring the lever up. The temperature strip will continue to rise at this point but you are already committed to the pull at this point. And also, turn off the boiler (top switch) right after you flush - you do not need the heat anymore; this machine is a hothead! Django, if you start to taste burnt, tarry tastes, then you do not want to go as high as what the temperature strip said; that would be the time to return to your last successful pull.

The temp strip and boiler gauge are inexact approximations of what the temperatures are doing but they will allow you to replicate your better results - just don't interpret therm literally. If you want exact, buy a two-channel digital thermometer readout and two thermocoples on the ends of wires for about L40-50 and tape them to the boiler and group head. Please refer to the pictures that I posted today on a related post by Delfi:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?17004-La-Pav-amp-MC2-grinder-amp-other-basics&p=180529#post180529

A boiler gauge reading of 0.5 is too low for steaming milk but not too low for infusing on this machine. The water is still hotter than boiling and the head on this machine will heat up very quickly. New users of this machine have heard so many horror stories about this machine getting too hot that they are afraid to bring the cold group up to temperature and therefore get a lot of sour shots. Also they are flying blind: stock machines come with no boiler gauge and so they have no idea what the boiler or group head temperatures are. Without instruments, the only thing that changes as the thing heats up is that the OPV opens. Then, without instruments, one has to throttle back on the boiler ('I' or "off'), flush for a second or two, based upon a long learning curve, then lock the PF and pull. With the temp strip and a boiler gauge, your learning curve should shorten.

Buckley


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## lespresso

hi there mr buckley terpenning,

you raise good points, in particular my failure to refer to the image showing it is a twin element model with no p-stat

you have hit the nail on the head in pointing out the need to ensure the secondary 'boost' element is off when pulling an espresso and when the machine is idle, and to only turn both elements on for the period of time when you are steaming milk and i suspect your advice will make all the difference - i.e. turning off the secondary element will remove the excess heat from the system

that said, I'm seeing scorched coffee when i look at the images of the espresso and in my view thats why this guy can't get crema

I'm happy to discount the reference to 'sour' as all the other evidence seems to point in the other direction, i.e. the system is running too hot

i still think you should have a group idle temp of around 85C

my imperical support for this is i set up a friend's la pavoni, admittedly with the synthetic sleeve which i think designates it as a millennium model and we were surprised to discovered that when correctly set up the group surface temperatures are not too dissimilar from the L1, although the La Pavoni will obviously overheat with consecutive use


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## Django

Guys, I have a 'one-switch', 49mm, 'old group' model! No twin element model here.

How does this change things, Buckley? Thanks for all the detailed information. I appreciate it. And I am definitely tired of crap coffee! Is it worth me trying to source a boiler gauge? I'll try pulling shots at each 5 degree temperature variation, and see how I go. Also, I'm yet to ever see coffee dripping from the machine during preinfusion. I think it's a myth! (Okay, I saw it once on a youtube video. But I call photoshop.)









I think that now we have identified temperature as a problem, I can grind finer again and hopefully start to see some good espresso!


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## Buckley

Django said:


> Guys, I have a 'one-switch', 49mm, 'old group' model! No twin element model here


Django, so sorry to treat you to a dose of my ignorance; there are SO many production variants of the Europiccola.

Reiss, sorry to contradict you, you were right; the green 'switch' just seems to be an indicator light, or a filler so they could use up the old two-switch casings!

Django, you wrote in your OP: " I've read that having a lever machine gets you very in touch with the whole process of espresso making..." and that is true, and part of that process is hearing from people like me with machines that are close to but not quite what you have.

I am finished now with my mea culpas and I am prepared to stand by everything else that I said.

First, if you are not getting drips during preinfusion, that is a good sign to me that your grind is not too coarse. It may be fine enough, it may need to be finer, but at least we know it is not too coarse.

Second, if the OPV does not shut off, ever, and you have the one-switch model, then I suspect that the pstat is clogged with scale and needs to be gently cleaned. Did you replace it?

Third, with the pstat, when it does work properly and turn off the boiler, you initially need to bleed the last night's air out of the boiler by opening the steam valve and letting the pstat switch on again and close the steam valve once steam begins to follow the air out. Then I would follow Riess's earlier instructions, since he was right all along about the functioning of your model:



lespresso said:


> probably stating the obvious, but anyway -
> 
> how long after you pulled the shot did you take the image? - crema will die away if you take too long
> 
> pre-infusion shouldnt exceed 10s in my opinion, and probably 7s is any length of time
> 
> grind fine, tamp light
> 
> a very short flush (20-30mL) before you pull the first shot (from a cold start) may help you achieve a better brew temp
> 
> observe ceteris paribus at all times - i.e. get back to the coffee you know and love and work from there - jumping in with a coffee you are unfamiliar with is making it unnecessarily difficult for yourself
> 
> the fact you can't get 14g sitting at a sensible height in the basket suggests you aren't grinding fine enough (as does dripping during PI) and having to tamper with excessive pressure to try and compensate - tip: get the grinder to do your work for you!
> 
> let us know how you get on as i am a big fan of LPs and you will get excellent espresso out of it once you develop a process and stick to it
> 
> r.


You will need to temperature surf with respect to the liquid crystal display in regards to the speed, strength and timing of your warming flushes, locking in the PF and pulling shots. With the smaller mass of water in the LP group, the small mass of the piston (still brass in your model, I am assuming) can cool the brew water enough before it infuses the puck. No one knows what the temperatue of the piston is but it seems to compensate for the outer surface of the group telling us that this portion of the water path is above brew temperature. How much above is appropriate depends upon how fast you are in locking the PF and beginning your pull, and how hot the boiler is. If you have a pstat, it can be adjusted to always keep the boiler near a known temperature. Once you are pulling your shot, you have no need to know temperature because you are committed to the temperature your previous procedure has given you. Pulling slow or fast is a matter then of how you want to treat your pressure profile, and has nothing further to do with temperature. Grind and pulling (call it "phase 2") should be done with respect to the taste in the cup and there is a lot of learning there that is related but mostly independent from the learning in "phase 1", ie, setting up the pull temperature by a combination of waiting, flushing, and/or moving quickly. Phase 1 can be accomplished in its most Zen-like state by knowing how many fractions of a second one must flush the group head after the OPV goes off for the second time (after the air purge) and then how quickly to lock in the PF, how many fractions of a second to leave the lever in the up position before pulling and how to handle 'phase 2'. Next, phase 1, can be learned by relying on the training wheels of a boiler gauge and a temperature strip to give you approximate temperatures that may inform how quickly or moderately you react to the temperature states of the boiler and the group head. Finally, phase 1 can be learned most quickly by watching the digital readouts of the boiler and group head change in fractions of a second as you fumble with your stuff.

To anticipate future questions, until you iron out the OPV issue and temperature-surfing skills, don't worry too much about tamping. Reiss's advice to 'tamp light' is right on the mark of what most users are doing; some just touch the surface of the dose so that it is level. Others, like me, tamp harder. In the end, it is the least detemining variable, compared to all the other stuff.

To investigate to mechanics of your model, you might want to read posts by 'rpavlis' and 'drgary' in the levers section of the forum on Home-Barista.com. I apologize to the coffeeforums.co.uk community for directing this discussion away from this web site - in part, anyway - but there is a wealth of rebuild knowledge there that can almost make sense of the back-and-forth design introductions and changes that La Pavoni was fond of visiting upon their lines of production. Also, let me say that Stefano's Espresso Care and Orphan Espresso are two good sources of parts, as well as posting here for folks that may have parts available. It sounds like coffeechap has a basket you may feel like trying.

Let me close by making this post even longer by reprinting some instruction from rpavlis, who knows a lot more about LP machines than I ever will:

You must follow the correct startup procedure, or your first shot will be

hopelessly bad!

You must turn on the machine with the portafilter

without the basket in place, then wait until the pressurestat turns off the

power. At this put a container under the steam wand and open the steam valve.

Let it hiss, and after a few seconds raise the group handle ALL the way for just

an instant. Then lower it slowly all the way. Turn off the steam valve. Wait

about 3 minutes. Remove the portafilter put the filter basket containing pressed

coffee into it. Raise the handle until water and steam start to come out, and

instantly lower it just enough to stop the steam and water release. With the

other hand put the portafilter with the basket in place. Put the cup under the

portafilter, and raise the handle all the way and let the chamber fill. Pull the

shot. You wil likely need to adjust the grind. For subsequent shots you can put

the portafilter on before raising the handle. After the second it is best to

cool the portafilter between shots with a ramekin filled with cool water.

(rpavlis "La Pavoni Users - Some advice please" May 14, 2014 on home-barista.com)

Regards and apologies,

Buckley


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## Buckley

Duplicate. Sorry. Delate this?

B


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## Mrboots2u

Buckley said:


> Help, the forum is not registering my reply.
> 
> Django, so sorry to treat you to a dose of my ignorance; there are SO many production variants of the Europiccola.
> 
> Reiss, sorry to contradict you, you were right; the green 'switch' just seems to be an indicator light, or a filler so they could use up the old two-switch casings!


fixed now ........


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## Django

Hi guys. Sorry for the lack of response. I appreciate all the input loads but am in the middle of exams and need to focus on that. I'll be back Monday for some coffee chat if I haven't had a brain haemorrhage in the meantime.


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## Django

Exam two is over. The hard ones are done so now I can play with the Pavoni. I've managed to get the pressure stat ring moving without breaking it. Thing is, do I want to move it away from the brass ring or towards? I've assumed away and have turned it a full turn. What do you guys think?


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## lespresso

anti-clockwise to reduce a pressure stat. a full turn is quite a lot, you may have to turn it back up a bit (clockwise), but certainly try it at that for starters.


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## Django

My LP hates me and I think I hate it back. Not only did it give me a decent burn on my forearm last week but, to make matters worse, the boiler cap sheared off from the thread at full temp - it was leaking a tad so I gave it a little tighten - and sprayed 200 degree water all over me. Ouch.

Also, I think the pstat may be full of limescale as the adjustment I made - up to two full turns - has made no difference. Still no decent crema. I'd come some way and been seeing a bit of crema but just nowhere near what the Classic produced.

I'm getting a bit disheartened here.


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## Mrboots2u

Are the drinks tasty and. It lacking in crema or are you finding the drinks unbalanced and no crema ?


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## Django

The drinks are okay. They lack body though. I weighed one of the last shots before the ****er exploded and it was about 38g. How does that sound for body?


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## Mrboots2u

Of a 14 g dose ? Tightening up the grind and therefore resulting in less output this might be more to your palate and give your thicker more viscous shots with " body " your after

Try dose x1.6 if still lacking " body " keep tightening the grind and reducing output and see it tastes


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## Django

I can only fit 12g in my pre-millenium basket. Tightening the grind any more seems to result in it being very hard to pull the shot and no more crema.

Think it's worth taking the pstat apart and descaling it?


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## Django

What do you mean by dose x 1.6?


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## Charliej

By dose x 1.6 he means when you weigh the espresso shot output aim for 1.6 times the dry weight of ground coffee as your shot.


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## Django

Ah I see. But I've been getting 38g from 12g of coffee. 3x dose! Is the case that the more the liquid weight the denser the coffee? Maybe my scales were playing up at the time.


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## Mrboots2u

Django said:


> Ah I see. But I've been getting 38g from 12g of coffee. 3x dose! Is the case that the more the liquid weight the denser the coffee? Maybe my scales were playing up at the time.


You may achieve more perceived body by doing 12g into say 18-19.m getting Thicker more intense shot .

You current extraction is quite diluted so hence for your palate may explain lack of body and mouthfeel .

Give it a go !


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## Chriswilson

Stick with it mate - just remember , if it was easy, they'd all be doing it!

cheers, cw


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