# Tesco and Taylor St.



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Could be coming to a high street near you soon...

http://boughtonscoffeehouse.wordpress.com/2012/08/08/tesco-in-surprise-artisan-cafe-link/


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Not quite sure what to make of all this yet


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I Dont know wether to laugh or cry, as while im sure the intension may seam like a good idea on the surface, i use to do work as contractor for Tesco Retail planing department over in Ware, and from personal experience, nothing that company do is Nice or pleasant when it come to new ventures,

The underlying driver is profit and if you think Costa are happy to run at a loss to get rid of competition then they cant hold a light to Tesco, i know first hand that they ran a pharmacy in one store at a loss for over 2 1/2 years to get hold of the rights to most of the local doctors surgery work, but refused to continue the 24hr emergency prescription service that the pharmacy they put out of business offered, even thought it was part of the pharmacy licence, they where taken to court over it!!

Also after frequenting a costa today, and hearing one of my work colleges order a decaf and the other a normal, then to watch the lady behind pull one double into two mugs and hand them over, the last thing we need will be more franchise/corporate coffee shops.


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I think if anyone can make this work it is the management team behind Taylor Street Baristas. Andrew Tolley is head judge of the UKBC, and quality & training are big on his agenda. Scaling up so much will be a massive challenge as far as quality control is concerned, but that's not to say it won't be possible. I'm fairly sure Andrew and his team wouldn't get into bed with Tesco unless the terms of their contract were very much aligned with the speciality coffee agenda. It's a massive piece of news, and I think it could be a good thing for independent coffee shops because it will highlight (to the public) the difference in quality between speciality coffee and the existing chains.

It's a bizarre partnership though. Tescos are all about profit, speciality coffee is about quality. It would be great to see speciality coffee become profitable on a large scale though.


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

I hope your right Mike as you seam to know the guys from the coffee side of things and set them in high regard,

My only problem with it is my first had experience with the blue stripes, there will be some ulterior motive like coffee shop + mini Tesco Extra or some devious way of getting in to sites that they have been turend down on, i know that they have run out of suitable closed down pubs in most towns, they dont do anything for free and you would be surprised how quickly someones morals and integrity can evaporate when large sums of money become involved.

time will tell!!


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yeah, don't get me wrong... I've had dealings with Tesco's purchasing function in the past and they were a bunch of bastards to be sure. Like I say, it's an odd partnership.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If it goes wrong then the wrong message about 'artisan' coffee could be spread to the public and end up putting them off hitting the true independents ''oh I tried an artisan coffee place once, it was just like Costa''


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Very true, Gary. But also many great things would never have happened if a few individuals hadn't been brave enough to face down the "if it goes wrong" risk. I wish them well, but I do agree it's a big risk and needs to be handled carefully.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I wonder what machines they will have in there ?


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Aaaaarggggh!!!


----------



## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

I wonder if the TSB guys are fully aware of what they're getting involved in ?

("When you sup with the devil, you need a long spoon")


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

unless they have very very very good lawyers they could end up loosing their brand and everything they own apart from the clothes they stand in, and maybe not even that!! as Mike rightly says Tesco's really are a complete bunch of bastards.

They have an entire department dedicated to corporate law and writing contracts plus can afford the best barristers and QC's in the UK


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

This is all about retaining the emphasis on quality/specialty (TSB) versus pressure for emphasis on profit and return on investment (Tesco).

I suspect the holder of the purse-strings may win


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Barristers v Baristas


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I am really interested to see how this works out. I think Mike is absolutely right: it is big news and I expect it will have a substantial impact (good or bad). Whilst I do not necessarily agree with their approach and methods I think Tesco have an amazing ability to take things mainstream and fantastic reach. It is going to be interesting to see what compromises are made to achieve the suggested scale and margins.


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

The other thing is, I've shopped at Dobbies and Blinkbox and thought they were good. Dobbies now has a great array of bakery cafes. Not a sniff of visible Tesco involvement despite their apparent similar arrangement as the TSB proposition. They say all strategy remains beyond Tesco control, so really it seems like an investment by Tesco rather than a joint venture. Tescos have been pretty good at knowing where to put their money so far, which to me says they must have been impressed with the Tolley business plan.

I dont see it being a chain of prufrocks. But it could easily deliver better espresso to the high street than the current chains.


----------



## apt (Aug 18, 2010)

Nuova Simonelli Aurelia II T3.

We spent a lot of time testing machines and to deliver the quality and consistency we are aiming for we need precision. This is the only machine that can achieve this.

For grinders, we are using the mythos barista, but we are eagerly awaiting the new version of this which will be available in November, if not sooner.

RO water for control of TDS, and a few other systems to ensure we maintain the equipment are in place.


----------



## carbonkid85 (Jan 19, 2011)

I'm really torn. I actually really like the idea of making great coffee more accessible and I have a lot of respect for TSB for taking this project on. The high st coffee chains really seem to be about reaching the sweet point where they can sell the worst quality product without people complaining at the highest possible price. I don't care if consumers aren't generally educated about quality coffee - I don't think coffee shops should be treating their customers with such contempt. I really hope that TSB starts to show people what good coffee tastes like and that the high st chains pick up their game as a consequence.

I just wish they could do it without Tesco. I understand that it is a really tough time to be launching any new kind of business venture and I suppose you can't be quite so picky when it comes to investors at the moment, but I just have such a massive problem with Tesco to the point that I will never give them a penny of my money. So whilst I am completely behind the concept, I won't ever be spending money there.


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Colin Harmon said in Tamper Tantrum back along, "If you want to be sucessful in the coffee industry don't try and be a Costa or a Starbucks because they will Kill you, people want what is familiar and comfortable, if you are trying to be an independant version they will always chose the big guy.."

You see where i'm going...

incase you don't, If a Tesco owned mass chain becomes the new face of specialty coffee they will slaughter us all.

It is even a possible direct threat to buyers and roasters because if they want they can just price anybody out of the market and take over the production end, farms like La Ilusion, La Reforma, Gethumbwini, La Fany etc etc even if they don't end up owned by Tesco, Tesco have the money and ruthless power to totally monopolise the production end.

Don't think it will end here either i would imagine that the other giant conglomerates/supermarkets will be following suit in some form.

What it is Tesco sees an industry growing but still vaunerable and so have decided we will be the next target.

Specialty Coffee has managed to remain as far as i know a truly independant/conglomerate free industry which is why it has managed thrive in its funny little way while everyone elses industry is going down the lavatory.

I hate to say it but I think it could be possible TSB (however well meaning) have just sold our whole industry to the wolves.

I desperately hope i'm wrong


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

At least Costa, Starbucks, Nero etc have the decency and respect for our industry to remain their side of the boundary.


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

If it comes down to it, can I coordinate Operation Guy Faulkes?


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Yes Nick. You bring the gunpowder, I'll bring some matches.


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Nick, does the fact that Tesco only have a minority stake in the business not suggest that what you're predicting is unlikely? They have little or no involvement in strategy and decisions.


----------



## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

To me our industry is defined by the skills and standards within it. Whether that be at the growers the roasters or the skill and knowledge of the barista...and the willingness of everyone to impart knowledge for the benefit of everyone

Take one of those elements away and all you then have is a slightly better version of a s'bucks or neros.

If TSB are driving the bus then i think this could go somewhere positive. It may not be what we are used to and what we may end up with is somewhere in between a Costa and a Prufrocks but i think a step in the right direction

If Tesco get their hands on this and try to vertically integrate by buying producers and roasters then nothing we can do about it. That's not Tesco's fault either and if selling out to big business is what those individuals want to do then they are kinda missing the romance part of the coffee journey.


----------



## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

Tesco and an artisan coffee shop business in the same article.......well I never.

When do you give up your artisan title? How many shops?

I wonder if Asda, Sainsbury's and Morrisons will get in on the act..........


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Artisan schmartisan. The word has no meaning. All that matters is that the coffee is good. If Starbucks started serving good coffee I'd go there. Everything else is just superfluous branding.

In reality one of the biggest challenges for the new business is going to be the big chains adopting phrases like artisan, direct from the farmers, and speciality coffee, and using them to muddy the water so customers are less able to differentiate (unless they taste the coffee of course). A brand war. That's where Tesco can help ensure that the new business isnt overwhelmed by Starbucks and Costa in a war of branding and promotion.


----------



## sicknote (Sep 5, 2011)

True, true........

I wonder the angle Tesco will take in regards to the growing number of Costa outlets in their supermarkets.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

With yet another independent opening in Birmingham centre (http://yorksbakerycafe.co.uk)) focusing on quality espresso, single origin brewed coffee, onsite produced breads and pastries/sandwiches. Im just going to try remain positive for now & feel excited about the local rise of specialty coffee outlets


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> All that matters is that the coffee is good. If Starbucks started serving good coffee I'd go there.


Im suprised by this, unless of course you mean if there wasnt a good independent within reasonable distance? ; )


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

sicknote said:


> True, true........
> 
> I wonder the angle Tesco will take in regards to the growing number of Costa outlets in their supermarkets.


Ha! Very interesting point.


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Im suprised by this, unless of course you mean if there wasnt a good independent within reasonable distance? ; )


If they both served great coffee I'd go to both... possibly the independent more just because it's good to support local businesses. But the only thing I have against the chains is poor quality. I dont dislike chains just because they are multiples. An independent becomes a multiple as soon as the owners have two outlets. Prufrock is a chain. Taylor Street is a chain. Workshop/St Ali is a chain. They still do it well because they genuinely care about and invest in quality, whereas the big chains have lost that along the way. I wonder at which point in the growth curve quality becomes marginalised, and whether it has much to do with earnings per share.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I absolutely get that the examples you have provided are chains , but they do not feel like chains & when you walk in you are not made to feel like its a chain. They have independent feel, infact in my mind they are still independents.

Starbucks-costa-Nero are about as chain-like as you can get, along with the robotic , inpersonal ''I dont give a damn'' service & every shop you go in is a carbon copy of the next...

My money is always going to the independent , everytime, even if they are selling Machacamara half-price. Thats just me


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

i cant speak with any authority as to how coffee shops work as i have never had anything to do with one, but i do wonder what Tesco's end game is, it may be a 2 year plan it may be a 5 but there will be an end goal and from personal experience the only people that really know what that is will be the upper ranks of that despicable corporation. from what APT was saying, they really are focused on the quality aspect, have a successful business model as they have a growing chain of shops are nobodies fool, but Tescos will want something, be it learning their modus operandi to go into direct competition eventually.

To give you and example, i used to work for a relatively successful medium size design agency, and after 6 months there we started doing little bits of work for Tesco retail store planning department, i used to help out with CAD and building surveys. after 2 years of more and more involvement the company at considerable expense had a dedicated office of around 18 people all working solely on Tesco jobs,

first the payment terms changed from 30 to 60 days then out to 120, then the rate they they we'er willing to pay started dropping, but at this point i was running a smaller engineering team that was sometimes used the Tesco team but we had other clients. the head of the Tesco team was the ex head of Tescos retail team that was suggested to us! and had supposedly retired to have children, move on 6 months and the entire team was now in new offices working directly funded by Tescos with the same team leader, who was now working for Tescos again?? the old company scrabbled around for work from other supermarkets but very few wanted to use us!!

it eventual transpired that the end goal was to learn how successful design companies operate to get their retail planing team to move into the 2ist century and if possible to get a company to do all the leg work getting a good team together and working out the best CAD systems and work methods then just move the entire operation lock stock & barrel under their wing.

if you look at most large multi nationals they all do the same thing on a greater or lesser scale, most companies will start with a small stake, then as time goes by increase their stake to the point that they have overall control at which point it becomes just another acquisition.

I Wish APT and his family the very best of luck but as an Australian i think he will understand the saying

They are heartless, remorseless, and single-minded in their instinctive purpose.

As one fish to another, it strikes me that if you swim with sharks, sooner or later&#8230;


----------



## Liminal (Aug 10, 2012)

In my opinion, whether it works or not is not the point. Tesco is a nasty, unethical company with a history of aggressive business practices that have led to the demise of many independents. Why make this company any more money!? Why help them achieve their megalomaniacal ends? Is this really in the interest of promoting good coffee? Really disappointed with TSB.


----------



## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

Not sure why people are so sure that Tesco have an agenda here. 49 percent of profits based on the current TSB operating model may be agenda enough for them.

Maybe they 'get' the model and see IT as being appropriate for the product on offer.

All they have is a minority stake and perhaps this is the first in a change of investment strategy that sees them try to make money outside their non-core markets. We know that tesco are becoming less focussed on megastores and moreso on local shops


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> every shop you go in is a carbon copy of the next...


Fair enough Gary







I don't disagree.

Let me ask you though ... suppose you had a successful independent coffeeshop. You'd gone through the expensive and time consuming design process, carefully selecting everything about the place, equipment, bar design, bespoke furniture, the colour scheme, lighting, and that comfy wooden toilet seat. So it is exactly what you believe is the very best coffeeshop and exactly how you want it to be. It works. Customers love it. It's a success.

Then you open a second one. It's in a different location. Why would your design of that second one be any different? If it's not broke, why fix it? Then you open 10 more. etc etc.

The carbon-copy thing is something I struggle with slightly. If a place is nice, surely it doesn't matter if there are a 100 other identically nice places spread around the country, does it? Although I do see that if the scaling up results in blandness, which is what has happened with Costa (but not so much with Starbucks) then that's not good.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Fair enough Gary
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This assumes that what works in London works in Devon? (Clearly not in Totnes)

I like places to have a sense of place , locality, individuality...spirit of the geography & personality of the owners/workers.

If New Zealand can supply apples cheaper than local growers in England and ''the customers are happy'' then why bother sourcing locally?


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

the difference as i understand it is that Starbucks are franchises and a lady i know runs 12 of them, so there is still a certain amount of personal running of the business, but she is no Barista and its run solely as a business venture, she finds, rents the premiss and pays for all the building work and basically uses the Starbucks brand and uses their supply chain but i can even make a better cup of coffee than here and thats saying something!!

Costa are much more on the Mc D model where they own the building and and you are just a manager so there is a more corporate structure and its much more about the BRAND

as for Tesco's softening their approach, the only reason that they are slowing down their aggressive expansion plan is they have already reached saturation point in some towns with up to 4 stores in a small area, 1 Extra, 1 small and 1 medium store plus an Express, they are merely looking to expand their portfolio of profit making operations and share of the market. this is not some apocryphal tale second hand this is purely relayed experience of working with them, they used to have a little mantra that their goal was to have 50% of every pound spent in the UK!! they are on their way


----------



## beebah (Apr 1, 2012)

saw this on london coffee jobs http://www.londoncoffeejobs.co.uk/jobs/view/barista-with-pizzazz/


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Anyone that thinks this could work as an alternative to independents and that Tescos are doing something good are so wrongly mistaken.

Feel like I could go on a long rant about how much I hate Tescos and why but considering how they treat their suppliers for their supermarkets, I wouldn't like to be a farm that supplies the coffee for the cafes.

After all....'Every little helps'....(our profits).


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> Anyone that thinks this could work as an alternative to independents and that Tescos are doing something good are so wrongly mistaken.
> 
> Feel like I could go on a long rant about how much I hate Tescos and why but considering how they treat their suppliers for their supermarkets, I wouldn't like to be a farm that supplies the coffee for the cafes.
> 
> After all....'Every little helps'....(our profits).


Every *Latte *Helps


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Tescos stance on price for milk?

If this were Waitrose getting involved I would feel more comfortable about the whole thing, but even they have Starbucks logos on some of the recipe cards instore (coffee cake recipe)


----------



## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Has anyone made the "every latte helps" pun yet? [Edit: F's sake Gary, you beat me by one minute.]

I don't want to go on a rant here, BUT.... nah, it's all been said already. Tesco are sons of motherless goats. My two penneth.

[Edit #2]

The Waitrose at Canary Wharf has an espresso bar. It's terrible.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Earlepap said:


> Has anyone made the "every latte helps" pun yet? [Edit: F's sake Gary, you beat me by one minute.]
> 
> I don't want to go on a rant here, BUT.... nah, it's all been said already. Tesco are sons of motherless goats. My two penneth.
> 
> ...


I put Every Latte Helps on twitter about a week ago!


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Seems anti-Tesco sentiment is powerful, even when it's a minority stake. I suspect that won't be enough to scupper the business tho, if they do it as well as I think they will.

BTW an alternative to independents? I dont get where this came from. I dont see it this way.


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

It concerns me because, when has Tesco moving in on an industry ever been a good thing for that industry?

I agree with the potential positives but it is like making a deal with the devil and expecting him to be trustworthy, as the storys go, the devil offers many things but he always takes far more. Lets just hope when he comes down to the brew bar, we can play a damn good fiddle!


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Minority stake only means that they get less than half of its revenue, it doesn't mean anything about how much control they have as business partners, the Directors of Tesco St Baristas are from Tesco for a start!


----------



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Well no, that's not what it means but I dont think it matters, Nick. Your issue with Tesco seems to be deeper than the facts surrounding this new venture so perhaps you'll always see it as a bad thing. Shame, as I think its the best thing possible for independents struggling to communicate how/why speciality coffee is better.


----------



## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm with Mike on this one, IF the involvement of a big player such as Tesco means that the speciality coffee message and ethos is spread to a much wider audience than could be acheived by us struggling independents - that's got to be a good thing! How the whole thing pans out is something that I, for one, will be watching with interest!


----------



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

No No Mike, please don't think I'm blindly saying that it 'can't' be a good thing, I am totally open minded to the possibilities and potential, I am only thinking about what could happen if it isn't handled correctly and Tesco do what they and other similar conglomerates have done all over the globe.

I really want this to be a good thing and I will remain open minded,


----------



## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Of course it would be great if this worked out for the greater good, I don't think anyone here is hoping it fails simply because of Tesco's involvement. I think it's right to have an eyebrow raised while crossing your fingers though. The idea that Tesco have some benevolent desire to spread the good word of speciality coffee is ludicrous. They've seen a product/idea/business that has become increasingly successful in the last five years and want to get a piece. Then they'll rebrand at a reduced quality and lower cost. Just look at how their insidious operations ooze over anything they can get their talons on. From their shameless copycat retail products, to their opticians, insurance, phones etc. They know no honour! If there is hope, it lies in the proles.

Getting a bit carried away


----------



## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Article in the Independent:

http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/food-and-drink/news/opening-soon-tesco-espresso-8027282.html


----------



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

There is one "best case scenario" for me. The big downside of being a coffee enthusiast is that I can't get a drinkable coffee while I'm out. Coffee at TSB i find to be nothing special, but certainly reasonable and pleasant. Imagine if this were to gradually raise the game in coffee quality across the UK, so that I'd be able to get a fairly good cup of coffee during a 4 hour motorway journey









doubt it though.


----------



## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

Was wondering the other day which beans they would use...

..this morning saw a criptic tweet from steve @hasbean.

Could it be??

Wouldn't be surprised to see Chris Hoy's face over this somehow if Tesco see the various Hoy/ Coffee articles that are out there


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I think that people are somewhat overlooking the fact that the objective of opening these stores isn't to get die-hard coffee enthusiasts to mothball their machines, roll over & surrender to a major player who is going to make superlative cup after superlative cup - just as you like it (...even if that's the intention, you can't dictate what people do & should like). Likewise, the Costa model is to ensure consistency and customer peace of mind in the knowledge that they see the sign, they then know what they are going to get...even if that product is the lowest common denominator - it's supposed to be bland & innoffensive, it's called mass market appeal.

It strikes me that neither is any threat to folks at home, busying themselves with the pursuit of perfection.

If I buy a coffee, I adjust my expectations depending on the environment, I expect to get a cup with not too much wrong with it (if there is, I try and assess whether it's a product of a malfunction, rather than simply not to my taste)...if it's better than that, so much the better. If I stray off the beaten track (as may happen with buying beans for my own use) I accept that, however well made the coffee, I simply may not like it. In this life you have to "kiss a few frogs"...

Most of the UK drink "coffee", whether that be what you and I recognise as coffee, or not. Like driving, most people think that they are pretty good at making coffee, however they do it...whether this be true or not. It's difficult to explain to people the difference between what they percieve as "good" and what a barista sees as "good", until they actually experience it. Ask anyone what the best cup of coffee is that they have ever tasted and they can only respond within the context of what they HAVE tasted...e.g. it's the best cup of coffee they have had up until that point. I think if TSB and their partner (I dare not say the name...) achieve what they set out to do, it can only raise the profile of well made coffee & hopefully knock-on to increase awareness, variety & availability of SO coffees.

At present with only 2 stores in the pipeline, it seems a bit early to draw conclusions one way or the other. I have no reason to go to any of the towns so far mooted...I don't expect my friends & neighbours to start yammering on about a coffee shop, or two out of thousands, 60 miles away.

There are undoubtedly guys on this forum who make great coffee, we all love to hear about the trials, tribulations and the joy when people nail it...but we can't all pop round "so & so's" house every time we want a cup outside of our own homes.

Sir Chris Hoy's fondness for coffee is undoubtedly good exposure, but how is he going to change perceptions of the public? Cycle round the country making coffee for the massess? Or is it more likely he'll inadvertantly launch a wave of "interest" that results in a light boost in Nespresso-type, bean to cup machines & sub-Classic home machines, running on pods & pre-ground? Not that this would necessarily be a bad thing - it's a rung on a ladder that can & does lead to better things...I think a lot of people here forget "life before enlightenment". "None more holy" & all that...


----------



## Pablo (Mar 19, 2011)

A little look at Harris & Hoole for a couple of minutes on the 6.30 BBC London News on BBC1 today and a few questions for Nick Tolley.

Nothing overly exciting to see but just thought I'd give the heads up in case anyone is interested.

On BBC iPlayer, about 13 minutes 50 seconds in:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01n8dhh/BBC_London_News_11_10_2012/


----------

