# Portafilter left in or out?



## 2953 (May 1, 2012)

What's the general consensus then - left in the grouphead when machine not in use (off) or on the driptray?


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

If it's left on(cleaned) when m/c not in use, then you won't forget to put it on to warm up when the m/c is switched on.


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

Mine only ever gets left in to warm up. When n to in use mine sits on a tray


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

yeah i leave mine in... then its a lovely hot lump of solid brass that stays warm for ages.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

As long as it is only very loosely held in, i'm not sure why you'd want to remove it. Maybe space concerns?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

and where else would you keep it?









although it'd be nice on the larger machines if you could lock the PF in sideways instead


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You can get portafilters with offset lugs so they don't stick out as much . Rare though

I leave mine in all the time , only gently engaged though to avoid damage to the seal


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Yeah I only insert mine till it just grips


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

It shouldn't grip as far as i'm aware, otherwise you're putting unnecessary pressure on the gasket when it does warm up.


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## 2953 (May 1, 2012)

RisingPower said:


> As long as it is only very loosely held in, i'm not sure why you'd want to remove it. Maybe space concerns?


Aye, I have to push my Piccino back and forth on the counter space every time I want to use the steam wand as if I leave it at the front then the PF inevitably gets knocked out by someone walking past normally ending up in a nice little dink to the spouts.

I kept reading how you should leave the PF in/ out due to gasket drying out or prewarming but I think I'm just going to leave it out from now on; if I have to spend a few quid on a new seal sooner than I would've normally I think I'd prefer that and leave the machine where it is.


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## origmarm (Mar 7, 2012)

I always leave mine very lightly locked in. That said I do this primarily because I have it on a timer to warm up in the morning and I would forget to put it in otherwise (it's happened). That and there's not really any way for anyone to knock it out walking past.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Can always run hot water through the portafilter for 30 seconds or so if forget to leave it in, not ideal but the shot wont be a right-off


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Can always run hot water through the portafilter for 30 seconds or so if forget to leave it in, not ideal but the shot wont be a right-off


That's fine on your machine.... Do that on a classic you have to wait another 10 mins to get the temperature stable again


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

seeq said:


> That's fine on your machine.... Do that on a classic you have to wait another 10 mins to get the temperature stable again


Dooooo0oh!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

When the machine is switched off the portafilter should not be attached to the group.

A few minutes after you switch your machine on, lock in the portafilter

If you leave the portafilter locked in when cold the rubber seal will compress and in a short period of time will not give you a decent seal, leading to spraying and leaks.

Letting the seal harden as it cools without pressure from the portafilter means it is the right shape for when you want to use it next.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

What if its only left in just enough to hold the PF in place? And not fully locked in?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Glenn said:


> When the machine is switched off the portafilter should not be attached to the group.
> 
> A few minutes after you switch your machine on, lock in the portafilter
> 
> ...


Not sure I entirely agree with that, you don't leave the portafilter locked in, but you can leave it in the group from cold loosely and it won't make contact with the seal, even when the parts expand.

As far as i'm aware though, leaving it locked in, will eventually deteriorate the seal though if it's making contact with the gasket.


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

On the Drip tray or cup warmer until about 5 mins before i intend to use, or otherwise you are just increasing the surface are for heat loss from the group?? and as Glen points out, the seal is being slightly less vulcanised every time.

think that as the rubber heats and cools while stretched it changes the bonds!!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

RobD said:


> On the Drip tray or cup warmer until about 5 mins before i intend to use, or otherwise you are just increasing the surface are for heat loss from the group?? and as Glen points out, the seal is being slightly less vulcanised every time.
> 
> think that as the rubber heats and cools while stretched it changes the bonds!!


Yes you're increasing the surface area for heat loss from the group, but if it isn't making contact with the gasket, how is the seal going to get worn? Tbh the grouphead has massive surface area already (at least the e61), is it really going to make it much longer for the grouphead to warm/lose much more heat?


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## RobD (May 2, 2012)

Maybe not on an exposed E61 but on a Gaggia Classic or other small boiler/group head you are increasing the surface area quite a lot. The issue with most group seals is that for the PF to be locked in securely the seal is very slightly compressed, well on the few that I have had!!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But surely you would as a matter of routine, change your seals? Are we suggesting, that as an economy of scale, a seal costing £1.99 is worth preserving? I regularly take my seal out to drop the shower screen to allow access into the group head, to clean it properly. Anyone who thinks back flushing does it, the next time you back flush drop your shower screen and see whats still there! I promise you your back flush routine will soon take a back seat. If you have a machine which requires you to flip a lever to pull the shot, regular backflushing will soon strip the lube from the cams, and you will find the lever ever so slightly stiff......try it!

A group head warmed by flushing water through, will not be as stable as one that has warmed through naturally.......of course, I may be wrong!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

RobD said:


> Maybe not on an exposed E61 but on a Gaggia Classic or other small boiler/group head you are increasing the surface area quite a lot. The issue with most group seals is that for the PF to be locked in securely the seal is very slightly compressed, well on the few that I have had!!


Ahh yeah, well they don't have any thermal stability anyway









I'm not saying lock it in securely, there's quite a bit of travel before it engages the gasket from cold, whilst still being held in the group very loosely.

I just leave it in the grouphead pretty loose, won't come in contact with the gasket even when the parts expand.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> But surely you would as a matter of routine, change your seals? Are we suggesting, that as an economy of scale, a seal costing £1.99 is worth preserving? I regularly take my seal out to drop the shower screen to allow access into the group head, to clean it properly. Anyone who thinks back flushing does it, the next time you back flush drop your shower screen and see whats still there! I promise you your back flush routine will soon take a back seat. If you have a machine which requires you to flip a lever to pull the shot, regular backflushing will soon strip the lube from the cams, and you will find the lever ever so slightly stiff......try it!
> 
> A group head warmed by flushing water through, will not be as stable as one that has warmed through naturally.......of course, I may be wrong!


You don't want to decrease the life of components for no reason.

I backflush regularly, check the gasket every so often, so far, I haven't seen much build up at all between checking the gasket and the gasket is still fine and makes good contact for... I can't remember how long now.

Also, the cams in the grouphead also looked fine to me last time I checked it and that also should be part of the maintenance regime, but maybe I could have another check, haven't looked for a while.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

If I place my portafilter into the e61 and slightly engaged enough for it to not fall off then it comes no where near the seal.

Im still on my original seal with no problems! (Although I have 2 as spare)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rising Power, the way it was explained to me by an engineer, was that using the chemicals to back flush regularly, does more damage than good. I found, after taking out the lever arm assembly, and re greasing that I had got used to a stiff lever. I know as soon as you re grease any moving part, it will appear to move better. When I remove the group seal, and drop the shower screen, I go to work on the group head with a decent brush, puly cafe and then a steamer to clean it all up. I can get the brass back to shining new. You cannot do this by back flushing. I will be doing my machine again in the next couple of days. If I get time, I will photograph it.

I dare anyone to drop the shower screen and have a look.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dfk41 said:


> Rising Power, the way it was explained to me by an engineer, was that using the chemicals to back flush regularly, does more damage than good. I found, after taking out the lever arm assembly, and re greasing that I had got used to a stiff lever. I know as soon as you re grease any moving part, it will appear to move better. When I remove the group seal, and drop the shower screen, I go to work on the group head with a decent brush, puly cafe and then a steamer to clean it all up. I can get the brass back to shining new. You cannot do this by back flushing. I will be doing my machine again in the next couple of days. If I get time, I will photograph it.
> 
> I dare anyone to drop the shower screen and have a look.


They say every 2 weeks on the container, I go for every week. Doesn't seem to have harmed the seal/insides yet from what i've seen?

I remember regreasing the cams on the lever, then finding it was pretty much the damn same







The only thing I notice is when the puly caff is flowing around the cams and group, yes, it's stiff then (no doubt due to all the air being forced between the cams).

I guess I could pull it this weekend and have a gander.


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## 2953 (May 1, 2012)

Water backflush at the end of each session for me plus a chemical on every 6 or 8 weeks with which I then also remove the screen and give the grouphead a good clean. This routine seems to keep the machine and my coffee nice and fresh.

Today's the first day my PF is spending out of the head and on the tray; now I'm paranoid that it's easier to brush and knock onto the floor!! :lol:


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It would be interesting.......it is easy to accept what you are told, but always better to have a look yourself! The water only circulates around the group, so it kind of makes sense in keeping the group head itself, and shower screen in clean condition. If back flushing does this, then when you take the seal out and drop your screen, the head ought to be reasonably clean....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Oops just remembered its been about 50 shots since my last water back flush. Time for a strip clean


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

garydyke1 said:


> Oops just remembered its been about 50 shots since my last water back flush. Time for a strip clean


Ewwww...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I knew I had the advice in an email, I hope it makes more sense...

I drop my shower screen every 3 days and scrub out the group behind it, plus the screen with a brush and detergent (fairy or similar). The backflush I then do once every 2 months or so, because the vent tube and valves that depressurise the group get gunked up without the occasional backflush. My routine is drop screen on hot machine, clean...rinse etc..Once clean, then do backflush (if it's due), then rinse/flush to get all the cleaner out. Switch machine off and The next day before switching machine on, lubricate the cam and pins inside the group (ensuring they are totally dry before I do)..


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The shots have been tasting fine & actually a look under the bonnet shows all isnt too bad, minimal oil action. Clean will be donw tonight prior to opening a fresh bag of HB Wote Natural.

The plus point for using lightish roast coffee I guess?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

seems to me, the whole water backflush thing is a little odd.

When you pull a shot, water is pushed through the puck, which sometimes expands and touches the shower screen.

So to clean it, people are pushing water into the PF and then sucking it BACK through the group. It seems to me, all that would do is pull the dirt and oils on the shower screen, up into the body of the group, where it wasnt sitting to begin with.

Surely it would make more sense just to do a quick clean water flush of the group, after each shot. Thereby rinsing the shower screen from behind and keeping the dirt moving in one direction only. Add to that, the fact that water, has almost no effect on the oils that build up on shower screens, and all you're really doing is just pushing it around a bit.

I could be totally wrong of course, but water backflushing seems pretty pointless to me. I'd be tempted to do quick flushes, followed by a once a fortnight chemical backflush just in case anything is lingering further up in the group.

Not to mention the fact that backflushing daily is just a massive pain in the arse. I get the impression some people spend more time cleaning their machines, flushing them and rinsing them than they do drinking coffee!


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## seeq (Jul 9, 2011)

shrink said:


> seems to me, the whole water backflush thing is a little odd.
> 
> When you pull a shot, water is pushed through the puck, which sometimes expands and touches the shower screen.
> 
> ...


When you finish pouring a shot the pressure is released up through the group anyway, thus taking the oils, etc with it. That is why backflushing is important. I run ater through the group after every shot and give he shower a quick wipe with a cloth. I do a quick water backflush after my last espresso of the day (I drink around 3, 4 or 5 a day) it takes about 30 seconds to do. I them do a chemical one with puly caff once a week.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

sounds like a sensible routine, and certainly more measured that some i've heard of!!









i will make about 4 doubles a day (one for me, and one for the lady, twice a day). So will likely flush it before and after each shot, wipe it down and do a backflush once a fortnight. We're not high quantity users!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Here's a diagram of how the e61 thermosyphon looks, so you can see where the coffee oils and grounds end up, not to mention chaff.

There was an animated one somewhere, but I don't remember where...

After 1 week, I notice enough crap coming out with a puly caff flush.

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/low-boiler-temperature-t19355.html


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

interesting comment here that suggests you SHOULD leave your filter in place, as the seal can dry out quicker if left exposed

interesting counter argument to those already presented


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## repeat (Nov 14, 2009)

My machine is on 24x7 and I leave the pf in all the time. 4 months and the gasket is fine.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

wouldnt want your electric bills


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