# Please help me get a drinkable shot :-)



## liesnl (Feb 25, 2015)

I am dialling in my MC2 grinder and have pulled about 30 shots now, all taste very sour and haven't been able to get a drinkable shot yet. I am very new to this. What can I do?? I use 18g in a double basket and am pulling between 25-30 grams of espresso taking 25-35 seconds, depending on grinder setting. I am getting very frustrated with it all and feel like it is never going to happen! I am using 4 day old beans Italian Job from Rave.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

I'm not the best person to advise, but one will be along soon enough...

Some thoughts:

- I think the beans may need to rest longer - that's one thing, but may not be the cause of your frustration.

- I'm not sure what ratios you should be working to but 25 from 18g seems low...

Are you following any advise for achieving temp stability on your machine.

p.s. it will happen; I was in your shoes when I first started (Glenn came over and gave some one-on-one training) - keep the faith


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Leave the beans to rest a few days longer and open up the grind a bit to pull a bit more shot weight - say 36grms - 1:2 ratio. What machine are you using?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok the machine your using is a classic ?

Firstly what temp surfing processes are you using ? By this I mean at what point do you hit the pump button to start a shot ?

Are these shots sour as epsresso or in milk.

What does the water taste like coming out the group head on its own


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Using a classic yes?

What beans, roasting date and as boots says how long after the brew light comes on are you hitting the switch?


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## liesnl (Feb 25, 2015)

Sorry, using a Classic. Italian Job beans by Rave, roasting date 8 March. I am switching it on approximately 5 minutes after the light comes on. They taste sour as espresso. The water tastes fine. Thanks!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Froggy help out with temp surfing


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Turn on classic, brew light comes on, you wait five minutes then make drink??

Try, turn on your classic, leave for 20 minutes, then do your prep and sort the basket out, put cup under, wait for brew light to go out, it will come back on indicating your temp is good (As can be) then hit the brew switch to pour your espresso.

Might want to go a few more days rest on the beans also.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If you come back to your machine and the brew light is on, never pour a hot straight away, let it go off and back on.


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## liesnl (Feb 25, 2015)

Thanks will try that. So you mean switch the whole machine off and then on again? Also after having pulled a shot, how long should I wait until the next one?


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## liesnl (Feb 25, 2015)

Also, should I stick with 18grams of coffee, or go for a lower dose?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

liesnl said:


> Thanks will try that. So you mean switch the whole machine off and then on again? Also after having pulled a shot, how long should I wait until the next one?


Ok, get up in morning, turn on with left switch, leave for 20 minutes, do your coffee and load up, cup under, watch the switch on the right, it will go off showing you that the temp is low and boiler will kick in heating water up, when water is hot enough the light on the right switch will come on, at this point hit right switch and pour your drink, turning off same switch when desired weight is reached.

Do you steam milk also?

18g is fine to start with, get used to temp surfing and pulling shots, then play with weights a bit more.


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## jappl (Sep 29, 2008)

I am in exactly the same boat.

I have a Rocket and a Mignon grinder and every espresso is sour.

Tried everything with different grind and temperature.

I am using Rave beans too - might try some different beans ?


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## JayMac (Mar 28, 2015)

Japple, you say you've changed grind and temp. What about down dosing and tamping technique? Could you just be getting channelling through the puck leading to under-extraction?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

jappl said:


> I am in exactly the same boat.
> 
> I have a Rocket and a Mignon grinder and every espresso is sour.
> 
> ...


It's really frustrating, we've all been there.

Have you read the espresso guide on the forum?

Are you weighing the dose that goes in the basket and also the output? If so what dose in, dose out ant the time in secs.

What basket are you using? If it's a "standard" basket then your probably best dosing 16g.

18g dosed are for slightly larger VST or LM baskets.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jappl said:


> I am in exactly the same boat.
> 
> I have a Rocket and a Mignon grinder and every espresso is sour.
> 
> ...


Info please

Dose used

Weight of espresso

Time taken

Bean used

Do you have scales


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

A good starting point.

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/content.php?376-How-to-weigh-espresso-with-scales-creating-a-brew-recipe

When I was using a Mignon I found stirring the grinds worked well. If you go onto Youtube try searching for WDT.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Ignore the the woman's voice and the fact that she spanners grinds everywhere.


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## teejay41 (Mar 9, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Might want to go a few more days rest on the beans also.


In post #6 he said the roast date was 8th March. Perhaps they're a bit old already.

Tony.


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## jappl (Sep 29, 2008)

Thankyou all so much for the replies.

I have watched and read and will try various things , but just want a half decent coffee , not trying to be an expert, however here is some more info ...

I grind Rave Signature blend qite fine and clumpy straight into standard rocket basket - about 16-18 grammes - makes no difference ( this is a slight lumpy mound now.

I tap it several times to break up clumps , looks slightly lumpy

I soft tamp to level, then have tried soft , medium , heavy tamp, this changes extraction time but not much taste difference.

The coffee is then usually near the fill line on the basket.

I have stopped the cooling flush as this makes even more sour

I lift the lever and normally a delay of 4-10 secs before anything

Then I have tried betewwen 25 and 45 secs including the delay

I have weighed the cup and aimed for about 30g but tried more too

Good crema - very dark - tastes like hot red wine.

I have more beans on order as these Rave Signature are very light and I noticed elsewhere where I enjoy the coffee they are more Mahogany

After that maybe I should make a video ?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

jappl said:


> Thankyou all so much for the replies.
> 
> I have watched and read and will try various things , but just want a half decent coffee , not trying to be an expert, however here is some more info ...
> 
> ...


What basket are you using?

Are you accurately weighing the shots?

Rave signature tends to be better with milk rather than a straight espresso.

Videoing your prep and shot would be a good move


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Your water could be the culprit, or at least contributing to it. Buy some Volvic!


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## jappl (Sep 29, 2008)

Standard Rocket Double Basket

The water is possible, i use hard tap water through a Brita Jug but don't always change the filter every 4 weeks.

I will try some volvic and compare.


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## JayMac (Mar 28, 2015)

A simple picture of the top of the puck after extraction, and bottom too if it come out cleanly, might be interesting and easier than a vid. I would say if the water change doesn't pan out try 13g to 30g. I'm only suggesting that as I had the exact same problem (with a brand new machine and ok grinder), built temp and pressure testers, tried countless different recipes, only to have someone suggest big time down-dosing way past what seems typical... That instantly solved my problem, then could slowy work back and other changes began to have impact. Basically try to get to over-extraction. Once there you will have a comparison.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Im afraid puckology isn't a totally reliable way of showing extractions. .stick to the clip if poss


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

jappl said:


> The coffee is then usually near the fill line on the basket.


AFAIK I don't think baskets have a fill line - you're probably thinking of the ridge. This is simply to keep the basket locked into the portafilter and not an indication of how much coffee to use.



jappl said:


> Standard Rocket Double Basket
> 
> The water is possible, i use hard tap water through a Brita Jug but don't always change the filter every 4 weeks.
> 
> I will try some volvic and compare.


Be aware that while Brita jugs might improve taste, they won't reliably remove enough minerals to avoid scale building up in your machine. Volvic has a much lower mineral content and a close to ideal composition and pH and will not only taste better but reduce the need to descale (or at least this has been said by people who have researched it).

Sorry I know these things are not at issue here but I thought it might help just to clear those up as we go.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> AFAIK I don't think baskets have a fill line - you're probably thinking of the ridge. This is simply to keep the basket locked into the portafilter and not an indication of how much coffee to use.
> 
> Be aware that while Brita jugs might improve taste, they won't reliably remove enough minerals to avoid scale building up in your machine. Volvic has a much lower mineral content and a close to ideal composition and pH and will not only taste better but reduce the need to descale (or at least this has been said by people who have researched it).
> 
> Sorry I know these things are not at issue here but I thought it might help just to clear those up as we go.


Correct


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Bottled water will make a big taste difference to your finished drink.

if you are using the stock basket with the rocket try 17.5g in and aim for 28 grams out. In 25 seconds ( time after lifting lever ) and you won't be far off the mark .

I love signature blend from rave but it's best suited to a milk drink or americano and not neccasarly something I would have as an espresso .

signature is very forgiving and should be relatively easy to dial in .

As said by many and many times before try and keep everything a constant and only change one thing at a time otherwise you will end up chasing your tail. (We have all done it )

a video of distribution tamping and extraction ,although you feel will be like bearing your soul, will help others to spot where you maybe going wrong and or will help you achieve better extractions.


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## Sami (Apr 18, 2013)

Last week my partner bought Evian instead of Volvic as they didn't have any in the shop.

The coffee went from great to being undrinkable.

I never would have thought the water would affect it that much but believe me it did.


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## jappl (Sep 29, 2008)

All solved - it was the Beans.

I had only ever bought Rave italian blend which they say they roast a tad darker.

Then i bought signature blend.

I hadn't realised just how lightly roasted these beans were , and how it left that sour aftertaste.

This week i had a VERY good coffee - in frustration i asked "where do you buy your beans' - Paddy and Scott was the reply - i then ordered some of those and some from Garraways as i used those years ago with good results.

All the beans arrived and i lined them up and wow! the rave ones were so so light compared to all the others.

I then made a coffe with the Garraways and it was instantly better.

I then made a coffe with Paddy and Scotts and was even better.

I probably havn't made copffe this good for over a year.

Very pleased.

Thanks for all the help , i got there in the end.


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## jappl (Sep 29, 2008)

Sorry for mis spelling coffee , seems my ipad cannot keep up with typing too fast


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Usually you have to grind finer with lighter beans to get past sourness.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

jappl said:


> All solved - it was the Beans.
> 
> I had only ever bought Rave italian blend which they say they roast a tad darker.
> 
> ...


Glad you've got better results at last but signature blend needs milk IMHO.

I really don't like signature as a straight espresso, just doesn't work for me. Great with milk though.


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## jappl (Sep 29, 2008)

So are there coffees that are good with milk but undrinkable as an espresso ? Sorry didn't realise that


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Milk can hide a multitude of sins (and some robusta)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

THere are some coffee that are great as espresso , but the wrong amount of milk added and blurgh....


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Italian Job was one of the first beans I had and I struggled to get it right, not sure I ever did, and this was despite people saying how forgiving it was.

Brighton Lanes from Coffee Compass was the first bean I had where I felt I was 'in the zone' and it really stood up to some terrible extractions on my part. Never a sink shot.


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