# Time until extraction starts



## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

Hi all,

About a month ago I joined the Expobar family by buying an Expobar Brewtus IV. I have no experience with espresso machines so the last few weeks were spent reading, watching videos and trying to get everything right.

How long should it take until the coffee starts to drip? In my case it's about 12 seconds since I raise the lever. Pressure starts from very low and goes to 9 bar before I see the first drop of coffee. I'm asking because I decided to buy the same coffee until I have more experience and I'm trying to get the shot right.

With 16g of coffee in the portafilter which came with the machine I'm aiming to extract 32g of coffee. I'm getting it in about 27 seconds which means coffee has been pouring for only about 15. As the taste is sour it makes me think of under extraction and see two potential issues: extraction starts too late or I have to grind finer and wait about 40 seconds after I raise the lever.

If 12 seconds is normal tomorrow I'll try a finer grind and wait longer.

If it matters, grinder is Eureka Mignon Mk 2 and coffee is the Espresso blend from Bella Barista. PID settings are the ones they recommend.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Usually if it's sour is because the water temperature is too low. Try increasing the temperature and/or grinding finer, and make sure the machine has been on for 40 mins at least.

Saying that, It may be that your distribution is off and your extraction is uneven. Make sure that the coffee is well distributed in the basket, sometimes grinding into a container and doing WDT first (whisking the grindings to mix them well). Also make sure that you purge a few grams before a session to get rid of stale grinds.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Time

From when you turn the pimp on . Not from When the coffee starts pouring Grind finer to try and obtain sweetness.

Or the pump if you wanna make coffee


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Time
> 
> From when you turn the pimp on . Not from Anne the coffee starts . Grind finer


Got to love typing in a rush with predictive text


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks for the tips. The temperature is set to 95 degrees and I wait at least 20 minutes after it's on. I haven't seen any difference between waiting 20 minutes or more than 1 hour so I thought it's OK.

I'll try to grind finer tomorrow and see what happens. Grinding more coarse today didn't really help.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

onyx said:


> Thanks for the tips. The temperature is set to 95 degrees and I wait at least 20 minutes after it's on. I haven't seen any difference between waiting 20 minutes or more than 1 hour so I thought it's OK.
> 
> I'll try to grind finer tomorrow and see what happens. Grinding more coarse today didn't really help.


Dont get hun up on time , if the shot goes over thirty seconds its ok , judge it on taste not time .

Grinder finer and for now stick to your brew ratio

Report back


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Also, which basket are you using? If it's not a basket where you nominally dose by weight (e.g.: VST) don't do that. In other words, try dosing 18g go get a 36g extraction (keep the grind the same) and see how it goes. On my machine (E61, rotary pump) I am currently dosing 18g, getting 36g out in 39 sec. Also, don't overlook the distribution in the basket. It's important and usually gets overlooked.

PS: There is no way my machine will be up to temp in 20 mins.  The boilers yes, but not the group.

Hope the tips help. Let us know how it goes. :







:


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

Good question with the basket. I assumed it's VST but now I doubt. There is nothing written on it so I just took a picture (see below). When I received the machine it also had a lot of instructions for it from Bella Barista and recommended dose was 14-16g. I always went for the highest but certainly I should also try 18.

Is any way I could know if the group has the right temperature before pulling the shot? I always run water through the group for at least 10 seconds before first shot.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Thats not a VST, its a stock basket.

If the specs from BB say its 14-16 then use that much.

Think about buying a VST or IMS basket

VST = considered the highest quality, but unforgiving of bad prep

IMS = Still high quality but considered easier to use.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

onyx said:


> Good question with the basket. I assumed it's VST but now I doubt. There is nothing written on it so I just took a picture (see below). When I received the machine it also had a lot of instructions for it from Bella Barista and recommended dose was 14-16g. I always went for the highest but certainly I should also try 18.
> 
> Is any way I could know if the group has the right temperature before pulling the shot? I always run water through the group for at least 10 seconds before first shot.


I don't know if there is a way to easily determine whether the machine/group is up to shot temp. i once had a Cellini (HX machine) and managed to attach a thermometer to the external of the group - it was not accurate, but gave me an indication when the group was hot enough to brew. It basically always tallied up to 30 mins , so I suppose leaving it on for at least 40 minutes on a dual boiler is a good call.

Also, you don't need to purge the group for 10 seconds, not on a dual boiler machine. This may explain your sour shots, as the machine may take a little longer to recover, and it will be a bit of a waste of water, specially if you use bottled water. On a dual boiler, in my opinion, I've been getting good results purging the group for 1 or 2 seconds before a shot.


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks, I was afraid of both these answers







I'll order tonight an IMS basket, I certainly don't want something unforgiving...for now








Got it with the heating, will try to wait longer.

Today I let the machine warm up for about 35 minutes. First shot I pulled was in 32 seconds and sour. I grinded more fine and the second took 42-43 and was way better. Flow was inconsistent betwen left and right so I either tampered incorrectly or, as everyone recommended, I need a new basket. Probably both and getting a new basket is the first, and easy, thing to do









I'll report again once I run more tests/receive the basket. I don't want to waste too much coffee so I test only on what I intend to drink.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I wo of count on wasting a fair bit of coffee when learning. Pick up a KG from a place like Rave Coffee where it isn't too expensive. It took me a good while before I didn't feel like a 250g bag was largely wasted on dialling in.


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

Don't I have to adjust again the grinder if I change the coffee? When I bought everything and had absolutely no idea how the grinder should be set I bought the least expansive coffee from a supermarket to waste it. Of course, I never tried to taste that poison but at least it gave me a starting point.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Yea, but you learn a lot about how much to tweak the grind, what weight of coffee to use and how the machine behaves which doesn't change much from bean to bean.

Basically you will get better/quicker at dialling in and hitting the right point with the extraction, and until you reach a point where you are getting a decent cuppa within 2/3 pulls after you open a new bag you are going to want to start with more than 250g


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

I tried several pulls since yesterday and all of them had consistently uneven extraction - more coming out on the left. I get better results with finer grind and longer extraction but takes a lot of time until I see the first drop of coffee. I made a video with the last one in a transparent glass. A 60ml shot glass along with an IMS 16-20g basket is on its way and will hopefully arrive by the end of week.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

onyx said:


> I tried several pulls since yesterday and all of them had consistently uneven extraction - more coming out on the left. I get better results with finer grind and longer extraction but takes a lot of time until I see the first drop of coffee. I made a video with the last one in a transparent glass. A 60ml shot glass along with an IMS 16-20g basket is on its way and will hopefully arrive by the end of week.


That's not usually what we mean by an uneven extraction. Is the machine level, checked with a spirit level? As the output is going into a single glass a little bias to one spout over the other may not be a big issue. I'd worry more about split shots.

So that was 16g:33g (38sec), how did it taste? How do the "better results" taste in comparison?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Maybe add a naked portafilter to your shopping list.

No better way of checking your distribution!

Not that expensive and often come with a better basket that the stock one that you posted above.


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

Thanks MWJB for the explanation. The more I find out about making coffee the more things I realize that are left to learn







When compared to the 27 seconds extraction it has a lot more crema. Previous one was almost lacking it. The taste is only a bit sour compared to really sour. I think a slightly smaller grind and 5 more seconds added to extraction might get it right. I'll try to see what happens with the new basket and dosing 18 grams which is what most people seem to use. I haven't checked with a spirit level if it's leveled but I'll do that soon although I'm not sure the machine can be adjusted.

NickdeBug, I was thinking about that one but thought it's something I should buy later when I try to refine the shot. Right now I'm trying to make it OK, hopefully in a week or so I'll get there.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Use a bigger dose when you want to make a bigger drink, so when you go up to 18g dose scale up the output accordingly (18:37), if you're just a little sour try pulling a little longer, maybe 16:36 or 18:41?

The smaller grind is a good move, +/-5sec might not make any difference.


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

Hello, I've the same type of machine.

Just to throw another spanner in the works...

When I'm about to brew, I lift the lever halfway, for around 3 or 4 secs, this is the pre-infusion, the idea is the water wets the puck without the pump. Then lift the lever fully this starts the pump cycle and increases the pressure.

I haven't timed, but it's usually a good 5 or 6 seconds I would guess until the nectar arrives.

I'm dosing 18g and aiming for 36g output... anywhere from 25 to 30 secs.

I time after the pre-infusion.

I use a espro calibrated tamper, and standard baskets but with a naked portafilter. I'll be keen to hear your thoughts on the basket, but my gut feeling is, you should be able to pull good shots with the standard basket.

I'm using Rave beans, and a super jolly grinder.

Hope this helps.

w

PS, watched your video, It felt to me, it's taking a tad too long to pull.


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

Interesting, I thought the standard basket wouldn't even be able to accommodate 18g without touching the shower.

The big difference between our machines, which should be identical otherwise, is the time until the first drop. In your case it's something like 5-6 second while for me it's at least double. I would imagine this is the reason why the whole process takes longer. If I grind more coarse I'll get 32g from 16g of coffee in 25-30 seconds but first drop is still after about 12 seconds, very little crema and sour. I actually started this thread hoping to find out why it takes so long until the first drop arrives. I'm also curious if anything will change with the new basket.


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

Try the pre-infusion, it might move things on a little for you.

I have loads of baskets, I think they are standard commercial doubles... perhaps I'm wrong, perhaps they are tripples!

18g fits in treat.

I would say my grinds are quite fine, and the pucks fairly dry.

I'd suggest it's just down to technique. I moved from a classic and found it quite a learning curve.

I'll take a note of the times tomorrow and report back.


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## wilse (Nov 14, 2013)

OK

Here are some figures for this morning events... and I say events... machine ran out of water on one of my pulls, so buggered up my plans of timing two shots!

Lever half up (pre-infusion) 5 secs

Time after pre-infusion to first drips 7 secs

Time to reach 36g of espresso 15 secs

Total 27 secs.

This was on, what I think is the stock basket, as your photo.

At a guess, if you are not pre-infusing, then this would be around 12/13 seconds.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Just for reference, the pre-infusion position only has effect if you have the machine plumbed in. Otherwise all you will get is some drops of water from the thermosyphon hitting your coffee puck.

Usually the reference is that coffee should start coming out after 8-10 seconds, so 12 seconds is not miles off the mark.

Like previously mentioned, a naked portafilter would allow you to diagnose any extraction issue you have. Otherwise it's a lot of guessing.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

wilse said:


> OK
> 
> Here are some figures for this morning events... and I say events... machine ran out of water on one of my pulls, so buggered up my plans of timing two shots!
> 
> ...


Nope...

Pre infusion can have more effect on shot time than just adding on some time to a shot . It can be false logic to say a shot without pre infusion would be 12/13 seconds in your example .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I always found it easier not to play on with the pretend pre infusion by half cocking the lever. All pre infusion is is water wetting the puck....I dug this very old naked extraction out


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

http://vid1290.photobucket.com/albums/b534/dfk41/36886AE9-C478-4D59-9A1E-6B7A67F9C82D-4523-000002C24EA1416E_zps56d4cab0.mp4


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

I combined the two ideas today probably just to manage to make my life harder. I pre-infused for 4 seconds and also extracted more - 37.5g from 16g of coffee.

Using the same grind as yesterday coffee started to flow after 11 seconds instead of 14. If I add the pre-infusion time I get to the same number. The extraction after pump started took about 37 seconds and had 5 grams more than yesterday within the same time which means pre-infusion certainly did change something. I'm not sure why you say the machine should be plumbed in as mine is not. Without the portafilter I can see water dripping with the lever half raised.

Good news is shot was good, a little bit too "long" but I'm getting there. The bad one is I have to run more tests - extracting the same quantity with no pre-infusion and extracting less with pre-infusion. Probably in a few months I'll get something consistent


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You don't "get" consistency, you make it 

If you think the preinfusion has helped, why drop it?

Grind finer to retain the flavour balance at a shorter shot. By "long" do you mean weak?


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes, I mean a bit too weak. In order to get it perfect I have to either return to 16/32g ratio with pre-infusion or 16/38g without. Once I try both of them I should be able to figure out which one works best. Because I changed 2 parameters at once I don't know which one brought the best improvement.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

onyx said:


> Yes, I mean a bit too weak. In order to get it perfect I have to either return to 16/32g ratio with pre-infusion or 16/38g without. Once I try both of them I should be able to figure out which one works best. Because I changed 2 parameters at once I don't know which one brought the best improvement.


The ratio sets the strength, not preinfusion/no preinfusion (unless one scenario prevents you from extracting nominally, otherwise grind will normalise). 16:38 will be weaker at the same grind/extraction than 16:32.


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## hubrad (May 6, 2013)

I have mine set to 93 degrees, after initial experimenting which I really ought to do more often. Some coffees can be quite altered by one degree up or down.

Are you using the steam side all the time? I most commonly just use my DB for espresso, so only switch that side on. Ready to go in a few mins!


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

During the weekend I used the new IMS basket. There is a clear benefit of being easier to remove coffee from it but that's not the reason I wanted it. I haven't done a side by side comparison but I find that using between 16 and 16.3g to extract 38g gives better results. It's not sour anymore but also not weak. I also had to grind a bit more coarse after changing the basket. I've also tried 18g in the basket and that needs more coarse grind compared to filling it with 16g. My expectations were to be fine with the same one but this only shows again how much I still have to learn









The machine is correctly leveled, I checked with a spirit level but I continue to have more coffee dripping on one side. Not a problem unless I want to split it half and half in 2 cups.

I think next test will be to lower temperature by 1 degree and see if there is any difference. I am always using the steam wand. From what everyone says here the boiler would be ready in a few minutes but the group would still be cold affecting the taste so overall that should only save the time to warm up water in second boiler.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

onyx said:


> The machine is correctly leveled, I checked with a spirit level but I continue to have more coffee dripping on one side. Not a problem unless I want to split it half and half in 2 cups.


Did you level the whole machine or at the grouphead? I've had machines where the grouphead is not plumb to the base.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I agree with Obnic, I had the same trouble, leveled the machine but sill had excess flow to front. Removed shower screen and placed spacer (block of wood) on seat for group seal and applied level to spacer. E61 head out of level -- machine level. Adjust legs to level up E61 head. = pours:good:


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

I haven't considered checking the brew group level until Obnic mentioned it. Just did that and is indeed a bit off. At least for now I pushed a piece of cardboard under one leg which seems to work. From what I see the legs don't have adjustable height


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## holgr (Aug 17, 2017)

Hi onix,

the delay results in the "automatic preinfusion" feature of the E61 group. I have an Expobar Bretus III and set my timer to 37 seconds. Just have a look at the pressure gauge. It takes a while until the final pressure values is reached.

holgr


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## onyx (Jun 17, 2016)

That's exactly what I had in mind when I was learning how to use the machine. I also used it to adjust the grinder - if pressure was too low it was obvious that I was either grinding too coarse or tampering was bad.

After several months of using it I believe most coffees should be extracted in at most 30 seconds. Only couple of them, like the one I was using when started this discussion, need a longer one. To stop spending time on adjustments I now change the beans less often.


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