# Selling up....( or buying more stuff :)



## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

I think I'm about done with my coffee journey, might just go back to the drip filter that served me well for 5 years (I never drank coffee before that)

i seem to be pouring more away than what I drink... One day it goes ok, then for a few days it goes bad... At the mo it would be cheaper to drive to a local coffee shop and buy a shot...


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Sorry to hear that, with the equipment you have you should be able to get fairly consistent good coffee. (we all have time's / days when coffee is poor to crap).( no matter what equipment we have )

Where do you think your trouble / problem lies ?. Machine , grinder, coffee, routine/preparation?. How do you drink your coffee ? espresso , flat white other?

Can you put your thoughts on the forum for some supportive help?

Where in the Midlands are you ?. Could a local forum member visit and give you some pointers /help (even constructive criticism)


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

How long have you been pulling shots with the classic/mazzer combo?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thats a real shame.

A few hours training and i recon you'd be in a much better place (worth a shot at least) . If you need any help you're welcome to drop me a PM

G


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

We are all willing to help, don't give up yet. As frustrating and annoying as it gets, the end product is in reach!

There's loads of highly capable folk in this forum that are all about helping out.


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## Beanosaurus (Jun 4, 2014)

Don't give up!

You WILL get there and as some have suggested may benefit from a bit of training.

I went through months, maybe even a year of frustration (borderline torment) before I even found this place,

but by then I'd accrued knowledge from working with a friend who has a coffee bar to help me understand how to diagnose problems.

Needless to say I have learned a wealth of information on here anyway.

A really good resource I'd recommend is The Professional Barista's Handbook by Scott Rao - it doesn't really go into great detail about diagnosing issues with consistent extractions but is worth getting hold of.

The forum is a valuable resource and there are enough willing people on here to give you their time to help improve things.


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

If Gary **** offered me training I would be all over him like a rash, what have you got to lose. A win win situation.

Ian


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Mr O - like you, I am fairly early in my coffee journey. I had a Classic for nearly 10 years, but I have only recently started to look into, and slowly begin to enjoy, some of the greater complexities of the art.

The equipment that you have should be good enough to produce nice coffee so any inconsistency is probably down to the beans or pilot error. Both of these can be solved with some practice and training. Weigh scales and a Click tamper mat should take some of the guesswork out of preparation.

I am going to persevere as I think that the end result will be worth it. Having said that, I was talking to someone the other day who told me that many people reach the end when they realise that they don't actually like espresso as much as they thought they would.

My advice - visit a coffee roaster (someone like Rave would be ideal) and try the coffee as they produce it. If you like it then at least you know what you are trying to reach. Next, book some training, ideally with a home visit so that you can use your own equipment. I'm sure that a forum member can probably help out or recommend.

In the meantime, why not post a video of your prep and pulling a shot so that the learned folk here can offer up some advice.

Good luck!


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Shame to throw the towel in.

If Gary is offering you a bit of training, as I think he is, then go for it.

Wait until after that time, at least.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Eyedee said:


> If Gary **** offered me training I would be all over him like a rash, what have you got to lose. A win win situation.
> 
> Ian


Plus one on above..

Ive spent far too many hours talking to Gary via Pm and getting coffee help.. one to one training would be an excellent avenue for you to take ..

I was lucky enough to have Patrick near me when i need guidance with coffee and people like MWJB Callum and Coffeechap who i bore endlessly asking for advice ....


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## Steve7 (Dec 19, 2014)

Mr O said:


> I think I'm about done with my coffee journey, might just go back to the drip filter that served me well for 5 years (I never drank coffee before that)
> 
> i seem to be pouring more away than what I drink... One day it goes ok, then for a few days it goes bad... At the mo it would be cheaper to drive to a local coffee shop and buy a shot...


Did the same and never regretted it.

Now I drink drop and clever, and syphon for a treat. Giving up home espresso isn't giving up coffee....

Espresso is a thing I buy now and again without the worry and mess. Once it stops being fun, stop.

i found the end product didn't justify the means, and when I wanted a coffee, I wanted a long cup that I could take my time over.

I still love new beans each week, roasting my own, and trying new stuff. But I can do it all with a hand grinder, some cup gubbins, and scales. And the tolerances for a good cup are wide, meaning no messing.

Don't feel bad about changing your perspective, as there is a difference between giving up and realising it isn't what you want. Quitting is pants, reassessing your priorities and changing is clever!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Stay with it Mr O. The road to espresso is littered with disappointments.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Stay with it Mr O. The road to espresso is littered with disappointments.


...and empty bags of Italian job


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I think Confucius had some good quotes about how frustrating espresso at home could be


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I think Confucius had some good quotes about how frustrating espresso at home could be


He say??


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Unless this post is somewhat like a facebook cry for attention, then I get first dibs on the lot. How's £50 sound....


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I think Confucius had some good quotes about how frustrating espresso at home could be





The Systemic Kid said:


> He say??


Not quite Confucius but:



Jackie Chan he [URL=say:]say:[/URL] said:


> Coffee is a language in itself.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> He say??


Before you embark on a jounrye of espresso, dig two graves

Espresso is really simple but we insist on making it complicated

Our greatest glory is not in never making a bad espresso, but in making another every time we do.

Etc


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## jkb89 (Dec 10, 2014)

Mr O, you've been here about the same time as I have, and you're probably much better than I am at making coffee! If all else fails, have a break from the classic and go back to something simple (like the aeropress) for a week or so and then give it another try.

I think I need some training too! but don't give up, everyone here is super helpful.

Edit: maybe we could organise some sort of Midlands training session for us noobs! I'd be in for it


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

It's a bit like golf. You can have a terrible round but there will be one shot that makes you come back for more. I'm a terrible golfer but I've got a lot better at coffee with much practice. I get a lot of encouragement from my family despite the expense, they love the coffee. Don't give up just yet.


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## stevogums (May 8, 2013)

Don't give up just yet.

Use all the advice offered and then if you don't see progress then as suggested diversify .

Believe me the espresso journey is a very rocky one but very rewarding too.

Just remember it's a well trodden path many really experienced people on here have travelled ,ask and ask some more.

good luck


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Update:

I'm not giving up (thanks to you lot and my missis) I was only going to quit the espresso side of things not coffee completely.

Today and yesterday were bad days in the land of espresso - as you probably guessed. I feel a bit of a t*t right now but hey ho...

Thanks everyone.

time to go back to basics me thinks...


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

It is frustrating, just when I think I've cracked it along comes a new bean!


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Glad you're hanging in. Good to take a rotation through something else. I've been using aeropress and sowden recently just to mix it up and take a break from fiddling with pressure profiles.

Have come back to espresso again. I think (for me) it's a good idea to have a bean that I know is easy to work with in the cupboard at all times. Then, if I'm up for it I can tinker with something new but if I just want a good espresso, I can relax and not faff.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I have these every now and then, it always results in going back to basics so it sounds like you're on the right track!

Gary taught me a lot when I was first starting out, take him up on his offer, you won't regret it!


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## Steve7 (Dec 19, 2014)

Not sure it is about learning sometimes.

It is about the outcome. Sometimes you get lost in the jorney and realise you are not that bothered where you are heading.

And wake up to the fact that even with all the help in getting there the destination is an anti climax. There are so many other places to go.

As much as I would enjoy nailing a shot, and drinking it, I would rather be spending my time outside and drinking brewed coffee. When I want an espresso I pay for it and enjoy the service.

sticking with something just to master it isn't the issue...


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If i want a quick, short drink (ie before work) then it's espresso all the way. I don't want to spend five minutes making a drink, probably the same again for it to cool down then have to tank a long drink quickly. 40-80 mls in a couple of minutes, Bob's your uncle.

Weekends, when time isn't an issue, I do enjoy brewed more.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I remember hitting the first good shot and it was a fantastic. I've pulled better since (and a few worse) but I am a fan of straight spro. The learning curve is pretty steep.

Doing really good brewed is equally as hard but espresso seems (for me) to have less margin of error. i.e. It's easier to get ok brewed compared to ok espresso.

However really good spro and really good brewed are equally as hard for me.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

I hear that.


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## anton78 (Oct 12, 2014)

jkb89 said:


> Edit: maybe we could organise some sort of Midlands training session for us noobs! I'd be in for it


I'd love a bit of training. Or a lot of training.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

anton78 said:


> I'd love a bit of training. Or a lot of training.


You in nottm?

200 degree do barista and brew courses


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## anton78 (Oct 12, 2014)

Yep


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

anton78 said:


> Yep


200 degrees home barista courses....


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## anton78 (Oct 12, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> 200 degrees home barista courses....


Seen this. They're running a latte art one soon but I'm bloody working. Keeping my eye out though. In a perfect world I'd prefer training on my machine at home, but I'm hoping they run another one soon.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Mr O

So a complete U-turn then from thinking of jacking all this espresso making malarky in with the addition of a K10?


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

DoubleShot said:


> Mr O
> 
> So a complete U-turn then from thinking of jacking all this espresso making malarky in with the addition of a K10?


Yup, I lost the plot totally the other day. I told my missis I was gonna sell the Gaggia and SJ then realised I needed the SJ to grind for the Aeropress

(that was why I joined the forum, to see what grinder to get, never planned on a Gaggia until later in the year)

so she said she would buy the Gaggia, pfffff.. She only drinks Americanos

we went away at the weekend and I made my first espressos today. Both from Rave IJ and both ok... it's the change of bean - LSOL sub that messed me up..... Anyway, I'm back!!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Really pleased to hear it and glad you bought CamV6's K10 before I did. Already have a half decent grinder (Ceado E37) but it never stops one of thinking of an 'upgrade', lol!


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I've yet to venture into the lighter roasts but I understand that a good extraction is a tougher challenge the lighter you go.

foundry's Yirgacheffe arriving tomorrow (hopefully) so that will be my weekend challenge.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> I've yet to venture into the lighter roasts but I understand that a good extraction is a tougher challenge the lighter you go.
> 
> foundry's Yirgacheffe arriving tomorrow (hopefully) so that will be my weekend challenge.


best of luck, I'm sure you wI'll fair better than I did


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

NickdeBug said:


> foundry's Yirgacheffe arriving tomorrow (hopefully) so that will be my weekend challenge.


I expect to hear very detailed descriptive notes, Mrboots2u style!


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

DoubleShot said:


> I expect to hear very detailed descriptive notes, Mrboots2u style!










I could just rip Boots' notes of the nice review on their website but that might be cheating.

If I don't get a strawberry milkshake flat white then I will be after a refund









Really looking forward to trying something new. Lots of practicing so far with tried and tested. Time to spread my wings a bit (and hope that I don't face-plant too badly).


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Even my palette, dulled by years of haggis and deep fried heroin, got berries from Foundry Ethiopian.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NickdeBug said:


> I could just rip Boots' notes of the nice review on their website but that might be cheating.
> 
> If I don't get a strawberry milkshake flat white then I will be after a refund
> 
> ...


Aim for a 1:2 ratio 25-35 seconds - strength and mouthfeel preference dependant ..

You have a decent temp stable machine

It will taste good ....

Lighter roasts aren't per se Harder 2 extract but are more sensitive to swings in temp, especially low temps ( say from a un pidded classic ) .

Learning to get decent balanced extraction - right temp , no channeling ,suitable brew ratio ( from a light or dark roast) is key but under extracted light roasts aren't always as tolerably to some as under extracted darker roasts ....


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Thanks Mr Boots.

Any advice on grind? Currently dialled in for Rave Signature.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Mr O,

congrats on the K10. If you want to stay with the classic just add an Aubers PID and all your problems will go away. I went from 30% or so consistency to over 90% with the aubers - it really transforms the machine.

P.S If you want to upgrade the classic to something better which also means higher consistency and better results then you can go for an HX or even a dual boiler. Or a nice L1...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

NickdeBug said:


> Thanks Mr Boots.
> 
> Any advice on grind? Currently dialled in for Rave Signature.


Probably Finer......

Scales

Dial down

1:2 ish ratio in a decent time

Taste & adjust to your preference


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Agree with Boots, not harder just a different approach. As Boots said its just extracting it correctly to the bean/roast.

As a general rule I've found darker beans favour shorter slightly under extracted shots (as the bean are roasted more).

Where as I've got getter results from lighter roasts by longer more extracted shots 18g => 35g out 35 secs. Grinding finer tamping lighter.

This is obviously a massive generalisation and you should adjust to taste but a good benchmark.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

charris said:


> Mr O,
> 
> congrats on the K10. If you want to stay with the classic just add an Aubers PID and all your problems will go away. I went from 30% or so consistency to over 90% with the aubers - it really transforms the machine.
> 
> P.S If you want to upgrade the classic to something better which also means higher consistency and better results then you can go for an HX or even a dual boiler. Or a nice L1...


How difficult is the Aubers PID to fit?

Ive been looking into HX and DB's.... Hmmmmmm.... Where to start....


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Mr O said:


> How difficult is the Aubers PID to fit?
> 
> Ive been looking into HX and DB's.... Hmmmmmm.... Where to start....


They are pretty 'involved'. Mine took about 2 hours to fit.

The instructions are pretty good, just read them through and few times and do a few dry runs, familiarising yourself with the cables you need to work with, before you starting ripping things out.

As others have already said, it transforms the machine. Don't expect it to turn it into an R58, but it takes a lot of guess work out of pulling a shot. The other limitations of the machine still exist, i.e small boiler, temp drop during extraction and long time between shots (although this is reduced by the PID).

My coffee has improved almost immeasurably since installing it. Very rarely does a shot go down the sink now.

Word of warning though - once your tongue is not being ravaged by sour or bitter shots, it becomes much more refined and tricky to please, the only known remedy is machine upgrade


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Hmmm.... Might save my pennies for a new machine


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

aaroncornish said:


> Word of warning though - once your tongue is not being ravaged by sour or bitter shots, it becomes much more refined and tricky to please, the only known remedy is machine upgrade


Sad but true.


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## anton78 (Oct 12, 2014)

Mr O said:


> How difficult is the Aubers PID to fit?
> 
> Ive been looking into HX and DB's.... Hmmmmmm.... Where to start....


I'm an absolutely hopeless case when it comes to that sort of thing and managed to put one on a Silvia. Then the upgradeitis hit...


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