# ECM Synchronika brew boiler temperature fluctuating and overshooting



## Hrti (Aug 14, 2019)

Looking for advice for troubleshooting a problem with fluctuating and overshooting brew temperatures on my 1,5 year old ECM Synchronika. To make a long story short, I replaced the PID in the summer/autumn of 2020 because I had a small leak from the capillary tube connecting to the brew pressure gauge which is located right above the PID inside the machine. The water problably short circuited the board, and the PID started acting up (experienced high steam pressure which triggered the safety valve etc). After the PID replacement the machine has worked flawlessly, and I've gotten the good habit of turning off the steam boiler when not in use 😅

Yesterday I noticed my morning shot tasted like crap. Was in a hurry, so I cleaned up the group head, turned off the machine and hurried to work. When preparing to make a couple of espressos after dinner, I noticed the PID displayed the brew temperature as 100C (T1 is set to 92C). The water coming out of the group was hissing, so my understanding is that the 100C reported on the display was correct. I flushed some 3-4dl from the brew head, and temperature was reported being in the low 80s afterwards. Recovery time was really long, and the temperature shown on the display was jumping up and down and seemed random. When stabilizing at 92C for a couple of minutes, the temperature again started rising above the T1 set value. Again the water from the group head was hissing. The problem seems to not be PID related as the PID itself is displaying and alternating temperature readings as it should, and the steam/service boiler is behaving as it should. I took off the side planel to inspect the top of the PID (which I covered with a water proof sticker in case of new leaks from the capillary tube). There are no signs of water anywhere.

What would be the usual suspects for my problems? I'm thinking the temperature probe could be at fault, or perhaps the wiring or connections? Any other things to check for if I open up the machine for troubleshooting? I'll call the dealer later today to get their input as well. Thanks in advance 😀


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## Hrti (Aug 14, 2019)

Bumping this thread as the problem disappeared for a couple of months, but has now returned. I'm still experiencing intermittent brew boiler temperature overshoots (above 100 degrees celsius). When using the machine with the steam boiler turned off, it seems to behave as it should and gives me correct and stable brew boiler temperatures both when idling and inbetween shots. When turning on the steam boiler, the steam boiler heats up to correct temp and stays there. But with both boilers on and up to temp, it seems to be a question of time before the brew boiler starts overheating. My observations so far are limited, but there seems to be a connection with the steam boiler somehow. Would be very thankful for input on what to look for and how to troubleshoot this issue.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Is the water entering the brew boiler preheated within the steam boiler?


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## Hrti (Aug 14, 2019)

Don't think so @DavecUK? I don't have the time to open her up right now as the baby is flying all over the place 😅, so posting a couple of pictures of the Profitec Pro 700 internals (same internals). Also included a schematic of the water tank and pump area.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Hrti said:


> Bumping this thread as the problem disappeared for a couple of months, but has now returned. I'm still experiencing intermittent brew boiler temperature overshoots (above 100 degrees celsius). When using the machine with the steam boiler turned off, it seems to behave as it should and gives me correct and stable brew boiler temperatures both when idling and inbetween shots. When turning on the steam boiler, the steam boiler heats up to correct temp and stays there. But with both boilers on and up to temp, it seems to be a question of time before the brew boiler starts overheating. My observations so far are limited, but there seems to be a connection with the steam boiler somehow. Would be very thankful for input on what to look for and how to troubleshoot this issue.


 Have you thought about added a temp gauge to the brew head? At least that way you'll be more certain what's happening where it counts and it means you can set the PID accordingly. Is yours one of the new PIDs which allow higher steam pressure and did you also replace the pressure relief valve? Yes could be a temp sensor or maybe the new PID has failed?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There appears to be no preheat, so there is no bleed of heat coming from a preheat system, which can happen under certain circumstances, it's why the Vesuvius has a mechanical disconnect of that system at all times unless brewing.

There is really only a few things it can be....temperature detection from the sensor or perhaps a fault in the PID. I would say try descaling, but I assume you use water that will not form scale within the machine.

The sensor would be the cheapest option to replace first......

Before that you could try some tests. Swap the sensors from the steam boiler with the one on the brew boiler. You can inspect the brew boiler one at the same time. See if the fault disappears, or moves to the steam boiler.


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## Hrti (Aug 14, 2019)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Have you thought about added a temp gauge to the brew head? At least that way you'll be more certain what's happening where it counts and it means you can set the PID accordingly. Is yours one of the new PIDs which allow higher steam pressure and did you also replace the pressure relief valve? Yes could be a temp sensor or maybe the new PID has failed?


 Thanks. I have the flow control kit fitted, so no room for a temp gauge. Water from the group is definitely boiling out of the group when the display shows the brew boiler overheating though. The machine was fitted with the latest PID and PRV from factory.


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## Hrti (Aug 14, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> There appears to be no preheat, so there is no bleed of heat coming from a preheat system, which can happen under certain circumstances, it's why the Vesuvius has a mechanical disconnect of that system at all times unless brewing.
> 
> There is really only a few things it can be....temperature detection from the sensor or perhaps a fault in the PID. I would say try descaling, but I assume you use water that will not form scale within the machine.
> 
> ...


 Thanks. That's what I was thinking also, so guess I'll start with the sensor. Water should be fine. Two fried PIDs in under two years from new would really be something.

Could the control box be involved somehow? The machine also has a Gicar M2004. Asking mainly as I'm not technically inclined enough to understand the PID and control box relationship 🙃


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Hrti said:


> Could the control box be involved somehow? The machine also has a Gicar M2004. Asking mainly as I'm not technically inclined enough to understand the PID and control box relationship


 It depends whether the PID unit is just a display with control buttons, like in a Minima, then the intelligence is in the Gicar. In yours, I don't think so a I believe the temp probe wires are connected to the PID unit and not the Gicar box.


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## Hrti (Aug 14, 2019)

Thanks for the feedback! Probe wires connect to the PID. Will call the dealer also before troubleshooting as the machine is still under the five year coverage by the consumer sales act here in Norway. Good to have some knowledge beforehand though. Hoping the PID is OK as changing it requires uninstalling the brew boiler to get access (again 😅). Will update the thread with the solution when it's found and fixed.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

You could always (temporarily) remove the flow control and replace it with a thermometer- there's an argument that temperature stability trumps all!


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