# What water to use?



## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I took some a 3L dunk of water from my local speciality cafe (Prolog in Copenhagen, highly recommended) and brewed some Nano Challa with it, and it had this incredible lemony smell / taste. This was already very apparent when you're brewing and just smelling the V60. I tried the same with my tap water, but filtered twice through a BWT MG2+ filter and brewing exactly the same way, and there is pretty much no hint of any lemon smell or taste. One brew had TDS of 1.32 and the other 1.35, giving extraction yield of ~20.5%. Where I live has very hard water, (357ppm bicarbonate, 120ppm Calcium, 19ppm Magnesium according to the municipality, but I have not tested this myself.

So obviously the water makes a much bigger difference than I thought. I'm curious what everyone does, since I need to find a long term solution to this, since obviously filtering twice like I have been doing all this time is not enough. Some options:

1. Use distilled water to make my own water using epsom salt and baking soda

2. Add citric acid to boiling water to cancel out the carbonate (but I'm not sure in what quantity?) Citric Acid is available cheaply in large quantities.

3. Bottled water


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The bicarbonate content of your tap water is killing the clarity of your brews.

If you want to go for option 3, you need to see which bottled water is readily available where you shop, some bottled water is worse than your tap water.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I thought the BTW MG2+ filter would reduce the bicarbonate content, but that doesn't seem to the case. I also didn't realize how much of an impact in the flavour it has. Somehow adding a citric acid solution to water seems like it would be a convenient solution, but I'm not quite sure how much to add.

I have looked at some local bottled waters, and they also have carbonate content listed as 150, which also seem high.


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## themartincard (Feb 22, 2015)

The ion exchange filter you have exchanges calcium ions for magnesium as a means of reducing the potential for limescale to build up in appliances over time. The alkalinity (bicarb) of the water is not affected by this.

Do you know how your local cafe produces its water? Presumably they share the same hard water source as your home does.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

They use a RO filter. I have got hold of some "deminerialized water" as it's called here, but they have a very industrial look on it, and on the label it says it's for use with irons or car batteries, so I'm not sure if it's safe for drinking? I will try adding MgSo4 and bicarbonate to it, by Matt Perger's recipe.

Alternatively, there is this kind of device:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Water-Distiller-Pure-Water-Purifier-Filter-750W-Safest-Hospital-laboratory-220V-/401032727352?hash=item5d5f69cb38:g:U3MAAOSwT5tWG2vI

which seems to be a RO filter. Does anyone have experience with these?


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## Robwalker (Nov 12, 2016)

Tesco ash beck is practically mineral free and very cheap. You can build your profile from there if you like. I would've use distilled water for cars as the production process isn't likely to be food safe.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I don't live in UK anymore, so that water isn't available to me. I found some which has the following contents:

HCO3 86.9

Ca 19.37

Mg 4.02

Ph 7.55

It's the one with the lowest Bicarbonate that I could find. Magnesium is maybe on the low side?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> I don't live in UK anymore, so that water isn't available to me. I found some which has the following contents:
> 
> HCO3 86.9
> 
> ...


Should be better than your tap water, Mg isn't bizarrely low (0.21 of Ca, the average across records I have is 0.28 of Ca).


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## themartincard (Feb 22, 2015)

Robwalker said:


> Tesco ash beck is practically mineral free and very cheap. You can build your profile from there if you like. I would've use distilled water for cars as the production process isn't likely to be food safe.


Distilled water that contains impurities of any form isn't distilled water. The water is used in car batteries and cooling systems, and any impurities in those systems can result in some fairly expensive motor bills if they're allowed to accumulate.


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## themartincard (Feb 22, 2015)

the_partisan said:


> Alternatively, there is this kind of device:
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Water-Distiller-Pure-Water-Purifier-Filter-750W-Safest-Hospital-laboratory-220V-/401032727352?hash=item5d5f69cb38:g:U3MAAOSwT5tWG2vI
> 
> which seems to be a RO filter. Does anyone have experience with these?


Looks like a distiller to me. It heats the water and the condensed vapour is what comes out of the tap, so it ought not to have any minerals in it. RO systems are typically more expensive than this device.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

themartincard said:


> Distilled water that contains impurities of any form isn't distilled water. The water is used in car batteries and cooling systems, and any impurities in those systems can result in some fairly expensive motor bills if they're allowed to accumulate.


I have bought such a bottle of distilled water, meant for car batteries / irons. It smelled really strong (like petroleum), probably due to the container. So I wouldn't drink it.. It's also not a very cost effective solution.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I just found out that the aquarium shop close to me sells RO water for 20p/L, if I bring my own container. That will be my experiment next.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I reached out to Maxwell @ Colonna & Smalls , and he came back with the following:



> With distilled water I would add the following mineral slats to 5litres.
> 
> - Calcium chloride - 1 gram
> 
> ...


I tried to put together a calculator with these amounts, with the yellow ones being the amounts given by him:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pgj_wz4Zq13lYxq_VlVK5q_3VDvAoSF3yu4btyyWgV4/edit?usp=sharing

However I'm getting quite high General Hardness, or is my calculations off?


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## KrzysztofMazur (Nov 4, 2016)

Hello there. I'm glad to be part of this forum. It helped me a lot. Thanks for the suggestions guys. Have a great day ahead.


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## StusBrews (May 4, 2016)

the_partisan said:


> I reached out to Maxwell @ Colonna & Smalls , and he came back with the following:
> 
> I tried to put together a calculator with these amounts, with the yellow ones being the amounts given by him:
> 
> ...


Hi @the_partisan,

Are you calculating the entire molecular masses of Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride as CaCO3? If so, then I believe this is incorrect as you have to first discount the atomic masses of the other elements and only convert the atomic masses of Mg and Ca into CaCO3.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

StusBrews said:


> Hi @the_partisan,
> 
> Are you calculating the entire molecular masses of Magnesium Sulphate and Calcium Chloride as CaCO3? If so, then I believe this is incorrect as you have to first discount the atomic masses of the other elements and only convert the atomic masses of Mg and Ca into CaCO3.


I am multiplying the number of molecules in mmol of MgSO4 with the mass of CaCO3. The pure mass of Mg doesn't really matter in this case, but is also given below as Mg2+. I also realized my alkalinity calculation was off, since one CaCO3 is equivalent to two HCO3- ions, the number has to be divided by two, so I have updated the sheet with that.


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## StusBrews (May 4, 2016)

the_partisan said:


> I am multiplying the number of molecules in mmol of MgSO4 with the mass of CaCO3. The pure mass of Mg doesn't really matter in this case, but is also given below as Mg2+. I also realized my alkalinity calculation was off, since one CaCO3 is equivalent to two HCO3- ions, the number has to be divided by two, so I have updated the sheet with that.


Hi @the_partisan,

If you haven't already done so, it would be worth reading Xpenno's blog: http://grindscience.com/2015/04/making-water-for-coffee-part-2-additions/ and http://grindscience.com/2015/07/making-water-for-coffee-part-3-optimising-ro-water/

This might help you with the calculations.

I personally use the Soda Stream method to create my brewing water. It made a massive difference to my cup quality.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

StusBrews said:


> Hi @the_partisan,
> 
> If you haven't already done so, it would be worth reading Xpenno's blog: http://grindscience.com/2015/04/making-water-for-coffee-part-2-additions/ and http://grindscience.com/2015/07/making-water-for-coffee-part-3-optimising-ro-water/
> 
> ...


 @StusBrews can you tell exactly what your method is?

Marco Wellinger had stated on H-B, that in the course of establishing the SCAE water chart, that they had determined that the "Water for coffee" book targets were broadly comparable with the SCAA water spec (with a wider bicarbonate tolerance, which was vague in the SCAA spec anyway, this apparent consolidation of targets was also stated here by @GlennV ), but if @the_partisan is calculating correctly, this now seems to suggest disparity again?


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## StusBrews (May 4, 2016)

Hi @MWJB,

I am using the Soda Stream to dissolve powder Calcium Carbonate into RO water to make a concentrate solution of about 400-500 TDS. I then blend this concentrate solution back with RO to get my desired alkalinity level, add a drop of RO water with Sea Salt (Sodium Chloride) and pass the whole solution through a BWT Mg2+ filter cartridge.

Calcium Carbonate is insoluble in H2O and so requires some CO2 which comes from the help of the Soda Stream.

I did dabble dissolving Bicarb, Magnesium Sulphate into RO water, but wasn't happy with the cup quality it was producing. I remember skimming over these sections on GrindScience and thought they might help @the_partisan with the calculations.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Thanks @StusBrews,

Though, I was wondering more what you're target is?


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## StusBrews (May 4, 2016)

Hi @MWJB,

Initial aim was 120 TDS, but after further experimentation I started to have a preference at around 100 TDS for brewed. I felt that it was bringing out more of the brighter juicier notes in my coffee...probably due to less alkalinity at the lower TDS level


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

@StusBrews, what's the make up of the TDS? I believe that's the critical part , rather than the TDS value itself. So what's interesting is your total hardness and alkalinity values. I think you should be able to use the API kit to measure those?


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Does anyone know what's meant by Calcium Hardness here:

http://www.scaa.org/?page=resources&d=water-standards

Is that the absolute mass of Calcium ions, or in terms of CaCO3?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

General hardness as CaCO3


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## StusBrews (May 4, 2016)

Hi @MWJB,

Good question, and one my little brain is struggling to wrap itself around. The calcium carbonate powder naturally dissolves at a GH:KH of 2:1...but I'm not 100% sure on how I do the math to get that back to total hardness and alkalinity. I don't have access to a water testing kit unfortunately.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I checked with [email protected] again, and he checked with Chris Hendon as well and said the calculations are correct, but his recommendation is a ppm of 241 which seems very different than the SCAA standards - it would classify as hard water at 13.5dH.

I asked him about the SCAA standard, but he has yet to come back to me.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

For brewed you can go much harder than SCAA/SCAE/Schulman recommendations for boilers, kettles are easier to descale, if it becomes an issue. Some of my best brews (immersion) have been with water around 200ppm, though SCAA upper limit is 250ppm (my preference so far for GH:KH around 3 or 4:1, I've never made my own water so it's not easy to get much higher than this with naturally occurring water).


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

StusBrews said:


> The calcium carbonate powder naturally dissolves at a GH:KH of 2:1...but I'm not 100% sure on how I do the math to get that back to total hardness and alkalinity. I don't have access to a water testing kit unfortunately.


Actually calcium carbonate gives 1:1 GH:KH. For example, 100mg/L of calcium carbonate gives a GH of 100 and a KH of 100 (in mg/L as CaCO3). What happens, in the presence of dissolved CO2, is that each carbonate ion results in two bicarbonate ions (CO3-- + CO2 + H20 -> 2 HCO3-, which is why you need the soda stream).


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Maxwell came back to me, and it seems they address this issue in the corrections and amendments for their book:

https://waterforcoffeebook.com/pages/corrections-and-amendments

It seems that the Water for Coffee books uses the mass of the ions as standard, while the SCAA standard isn't completely clear, it's assumed that it's reported "as CaCO3". By applying this to their graph, it looks like the SCAA standard has a much narrower acceptable range than the one presented in the book.



> There are profoundconclusions we can immediately take from this metric. According to theSCAA, the window which ideal coffee is brewed in is very narrow. Also, thismetric definitively states that the water must be 'soft' (low in dissolved minerals)to make good coffee. And more importantly, the water also has a relativelyhigh ratio of bicarbonate to solvated metal ions.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The SCAA specs are not assumed to be CaCO3, they are CaCO3. The SCAA say KH should be "at or near" 40ppm...they don't say "always 40", the GH aspect also has a range & is not a fixed, single value, though it does not differentiate between Mg & Ca. Allowing them a little slack on KH (say -25%/+50%) & comparing this to typical water make up this translates to perhaps 80-140ppm TDS & a GH:KH (as CaCO3) ratio of around 1.3 to 2:1. This is fairly reflective of normal water, on the softer side & broadly reflective of the SCAE water chart.

Water of 8:1 GH:KH (as CaCO3) may be great in Maxwell's proportions, but it's probably not found on Earth unless you make it. I found mixing natural water much above 4:1 GH:KH could result in residual and unpleasant dryness, but doing it this way you are limited by the Ca:Mg ratio of the water you use, making water frees you up in this respect.

I'm honestly aghast at the continuing lack of clarity in this subject. Wellinger made his post on H-B after the release of the SCAE water paper (was a free download, but now you seem to have to be a member to access it), long after the 10.10.15 "Water for Coffee" book corrigendum.

Either Maxwell has reinvented water for coffee & everyone else is sweeping it under the carpet, or he has reinforced the existing thinking. I'm beginning to feel very sorry for folks who don't have access to Volvic/WE.


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

If anyone near to Hornchurch in Essex wants some 0 TDS water to play around with, I can provide a few bottles.

I have a 4 stage Ro unit I use for my marine aquarium.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Danm said:


> If anyone near to Hornchurch in Essex wants some 0 TDS water to play around with, I can provide a few bottles.
> 
> I have a 4 stage Ro unit I use for my marine aquarium.


What kind of RO filter do you have? I've been looking at something like this: http://www.thegreenmachineonline.com/shop/ro-easy-line-90/

But have no idea how you would install it? I wouldn't need a dedicated tap for it, just a hose to fill a container would be fine.


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> What kind of RO filter do you have? I've been looking at something like this: http://www.thegreenmachineonline.com/shop/ro-easy-line-90/
> 
> But have no idea how you would install it? I wouldn't need a dedicated tap for it, just a hose to fill a container would be fine.


mine is similar to this.

http://www.osmotics.co.uk/products/4-Stage-75-Gallon-Per-Day-Reverse-Osmosis-System-with-DI.html

that company are also highly recommended for the quality of their units. Unless you are starting with soft water, you really need a 4 stage unit (with a DI Resin in the 4th stage). After the Ro, I still have TDS of about 8 ...the DI resin then takes this to 0.

In terms of connections, they generally come with self tapping screws that go onto any cold water pipe in your house, but I have mine in the garage and just run the garden house to it with some couplers to make it all fit....So hose in, then I run the waste straight into the gutter and the production into a barrel/drum. Actually pretty straightforward as most of it is pushfit... I am not an expert by any stretch but happy to answer anything else where I can.

just a point of note. Generally need to have mains pressure around 3-4 Bar...otherwise may need a booster pump.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Danm said:


> mine is similar to this.
> 
> http://www.osmotics.co.uk/products/4-Stage-75-Gallon-Per-Day-Reverse-Osmosis-System-with-DI.html
> 
> ...


Thanks, I have fairly hard water, do you mean TDS of 8ppm? That doesn't so bad and quite on the low side. If it would be able to remove about 90% of the minerals that would give me a good starting point. The main issue in my tap water is the bicarbonate (350ppm), there is also quite a bit of calcium (120ppm) as well.


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## Danm (Jan 26, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> Thanks, I have fairly hard water, do you mean TDS of 8ppm? That doesn't so bad and quite on the low side. If it would be able to remove about 90% of the minerals that would give me a good starting point. The main issue in my tap water is the bicarbonate (350ppm), there is also quite a bit of calcium (120ppm) as well.


Yes ppm...at a guess, my starting point is somewhere north of 250 bicarb.

With a DI resin you can always get to zero, you may just exhaust it quicker


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

I got the BWT water test kit and did some tests. As the way the kit works, the color changes between drops, your value would lay between two drops. Each drop corresponds to be 1dH (17.8ppm). Maybe the data will be useful to somebody?


```
KH (dH) GH (dH) KH (ppm)    GH (ppm)
Tap Water               16      22      267 - 285   374 - 392
RO Water                2       2       18 - 36     18 - 36
Demineralized           1       1       0 - 18      0 - 18
90 RO / 10 Tap          3       5       36 - 53     71 - 89
BWT Filter (used)       8       12      125 - 142   196 - 214
BWT Filter x2 ( used)   5       9       71 - 89     142 - 160
BWT Filter x3 ( used)   4       7       53 - 71     107 - 125
BWT Filter (new)        7       8       107 - 125   125 - 142
BWT Filter x 2 (new)    4       5       53 - 71     71 - 89
```
The Demineralized water is bought from a hardware store - with no indication of it being safe for drinking. The RO water is from an aquarium shop which have a filter connected to mains water. I don't quite know what kind of filter they have (3 or 4 stage).

The BWT filter is a BWT jug with Mg2+. I don't know exactly how old the used filter is, but I think it's been used for about 2 weeks or so.

Best solution for me to start with some RO water, and add some Mg2+ and Ca. I don't see any need to add any bicarb. Furthermore, the BWT filter isn't very effective with such hard water - I need to filter it several times to get to acceptable levels, and even then the life of the filter will be quite short and I will need to measure how long it will last.


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## Robbo (Feb 17, 2016)

its all gone a bit too scientific for me. i have to say that i have noticed a significant improvement in my coffee since switching from Ashbeck to Britta filtered.


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## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

Note that a BWT filter does not change the difference between GH and KH. The same is true for Brita and other similar filters. So, the difference you're seeing is an indication of the accuracy of the method. It looks like the difference between GH and KH is around 50ppm, which is typical of hard water areas in the UK.



the_partisan said:


> I got the BWT water test kit and did some tests. As the way the kit works, the color changes between drops, your value would lay between two drops. Each drop corresponds to be 1dH (17.8ppm). Maybe the data will be useful to somebody?
> 
> 
> ```
> ...


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