# Any tips on developing your taste?



## GuyLevine (May 19, 2013)

Hello.

Any tips on how to develop your taste. I don't know if its just me but I am finding it hard to tell the difference between sour and bitter? Is there any ways to learn the tastes?


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Just try extreme examples of both. Cut a shot very short and try it. It will likely be very sour. Likewise try letting a shot run much too long. It will be bitter. Once you understand the rather extreme versions you should be able to taste more subtle variants.

Just keep trying different things. Always taste your shots before adding any milk into them and try different blends.

The harder one is sour vs acidity. That's harder than sour v bitter


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## GuyLevine (May 19, 2013)

Thanks. That sounds like a plan. Do you know of a book or post on the kind of favours you get out of coffee? Or where what flavour effects which part of your mouth?


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## Godders (Dec 29, 2012)

GuyLevine said:


> Or where what flavour effects which part of your mouth?


I remember being taught about different areas of the tongue being "responsible" for different tastes at school. This has fairly recently been debunked.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Lots of people struggle with differentiating sour & bitter, under shots can also be bitter, but more sharply bitter.

I tend to find (as a vague rule of thumb) that if the unpleasant sour/sharply bitter flavours are picked up around the front & front sides of the tongue then the coffee is probably under. Think bileous, pithy, green tree bark flavours.

If the bitter & drying flavours are more aroung the back of the tongue & throat, or salty, then this most probably suggests the coffee being over extracted. A little hint of this at the end of a shot doesn't disturb me, but you can take this as a hint to tighten the grind & eliminate it.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

I agree it can be difficult to differentiate, particularly as the flavours change with roast level. I find in brewed coffee, that with a light roast, under extraction can have very salty notes, and over extraction a dull, musty bitterness. Medium roasts can taste ashy when under, and dark roasts run the gamut of coal to charcoal.

I reckon the greatest help is to try lots of different coffees, and compare side by side when possible.


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## drgekko (May 19, 2013)

shrink said:


> .... Likewise try letting a shit run much too long. It will be bitter.


Great advice for bowel regulation too! Lol!!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Bitter is drying , sour/acidity is mouth watering


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

drgekko said:


> Great advice for bowel regulation too! Lol!!


Hahahahahahaha.... Aaaaannndddd fixed!!!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> Bitter is drying , sour/acidity is mouth watering


Yep, that that sour taste stays in your mouth for ages cause its mouth watering. I can put up with bitterness not sourness, well for me anyway!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

drgekko said:


> Great advice for bowel regulation too! Lol!!


HaHaHaHa ...LOL!!!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Oops huh! iPads have horrid keyboards







that's my excuse and I'm sticking to it... Like shot to a toilet bowl


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

glevum said:


> Yep, that that sour taste stays in your mouth for ages cause its mouth watering. I can put up with bitterness not sourness, well for me anyway!


Opposite to you - I have a lower tollorance for bitterness in coffee. Beer is different, so long as the IBU's are balanced with the malt sweetness. Dark Chcocolate, the higher the cocoa content the same, but the best single estate chocs also have a bucket load of fruity acidity even at 90%.

I put lemon juice on everything for seasoning!


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

Sour will also set the back of your mouth away to the back right by the hinges of your jaw. The tongue map is a thing of the past now but stick a few drops of vinegar on there you'll know sour, or if making sweet and sour have a taste before you stick the sugar in. I know a chef I worked with who made the mistake of not adding the sugar at all haha.


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## Pdalowsky (Dec 31, 2012)

As an americano drinker i too suffer this 'difficulty'

and often read people talking about hints of chocolate, turkish delight, fruity berry undertones, caramel etc etc, and to me the coffee always seems to taste like erm ....coffee......Ok there are subtle differences but i can never pick out all these distinct flavours being mentioned, and that disappoints me, I have tried all sorts of suppliers now, and picked beans with specific 'tastes' that would seemingly appeal to me, but once brewed tend to get a coffee flavour!!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Kids eat SOUR flavoured opal fruits or star burst what ever they are called, makes me want to gag.


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## Callum_T (Dec 23, 2012)

Best thing for me was drip coffee I got a lot more of the flavours from the tasting notes on the bag - I still struggle with espresso though. I was loving a bag of Burundi brew beans from has bean amazing choclately taste initially with a raspberry finish - so to say in wine buff terms

I'm getting quite into tasting and buying wines by the crate so me and my course mates start off being all sophisticated talking about the tastes / flavours - then by end of the night I'm just gulping it up thinking "mmmmm wine"


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

glevum said:


> Kids eat SOUR flavoured opal fruits or star burst what ever they are called, makes me want to gag.


Those haribo sour things are nasty. But not all sourness is a bad thing.

Your nice Chianti, for example, will have refreshing acidity to balance the fruit and tannins


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

These tasting notes you see on the bags, unless you have the same water, level of brew equipment & palate etc, its going to be hard to replicate.

An espresso made with a Gaggia classic, MC2 grinder, and hard water isnt going to reveals the same aroma, layers of flavour, clarity as a cupping bowl using a Marco Uber grinder and soft water.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

This raises an interesting point concerning the relationship between the complexity involved in a consumable's preparation, and the satisfaction of "promised" flavours. Due to all the variables involved in making a cup of coffee and how each one impacts flavour, the likelihood of finding all these different notes can be very small. Just as if you incinerate a lasagne, it will no longer taste of bechamel sauce and horse, over extract a coffee and you probably won't find raspberries and apples.

With wine - putting aside subjectivity, and the influence of a label - unless it's corked or served at a ludicrous temperature, there's not a great deal that can go wrong. I've been through whole bags of coffee that I've not been impressed with, and then tasted elsewhere and been wowed. Assuming my palate didn't change a great deal in between, my original disappointment must be because I screwed up all the brews.

I also think the labels found on coffee bags can be misinterpreted, or misleading at times. Hints of tea, jasmine, and bergamot can be found in a washed Yirgacheffe, but it's still a coffee - else why not drink Earl Grey? That occasionally seems to be marginalised or forgotten. A grass lawn is a bit like a snooker table, but you'd be hard pushed to pot the reds then screw back.

Take descriptors as a guide, and with a pinch of salt (figuratively), remember everyone's tastes are different, and if your'e struggling to find anything remotely close to flavours written, take a closer look at how you're brewing; maybe try a simple cupping.

p.s

I love Haribo Tangfastic.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Really interesting thread. Heres a thought I've been meaning to seek feedback on for ages. What about those who take sugar in their espresso? Does this alter the balance of sourness/acidity/bitterness etc? When I stopped putting sugar in tea/coffee, found I was getting flavours which the either sugar masked or completely hid.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Earlepap said:


> p.s
> 
> I love Haribo Tangfastic.


Rarely eat them these days but +1 for the Haribo crew


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Really interesting thread. Heres a thought I've been meaning to seek feedback on for ages. What about those who take sugar in their espresso? Does this alter the balance of sourness/acidity/bitterness etc? When I stopped putting sugar in tea/coffee, found I was getting flavours which the either sugar masked or completely hid.


Yes the sugar most certainly masks any sourness or bitterness. I believe sugar was taken traditionally in Italian espresso as it was very bitter and also it was just a 'pick me up' as such the bitter espresso becomes more pallateable and the sugar along with the caffeine gives you that jolt that most kids hit redbull for these days.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

+1 on Earlepap's cupping suggestion, could also use a Frech press, tasting off the top intermittently before plungeing & decanting. You may find that the coffee goes through stages & shines better at certain times, or displays certain facets. Don't sling it out at the first sign of bitter/burnt/roasty/flat generic flavours, there are peaks & troughs as a coffee extracts.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Really interesting thread. Heres a thought I've been meaning to seek feedback on for ages. What about those who take sugar in their espresso? Does this alter the balance of sourness/acidity/bitterness etc? When I stopped putting sugar in tea/coffee, found I was getting flavours which the either sugar masked or completely hid.


I don't have sugar or sweetener in the house, I honestly can't imagine putting it in coffee anymore...I try to extract it at it's sweetest point...it can often be cloyingly sweet by itself (I have a sweet tooth too).


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

My parents took no sugar in hot drinks so dis couraged me as a child for it so i have never really had hot sweet drinks. Where as my wifes Italian parents thought sugar was good for you so would dump 4/5 teaspoons in her tea or coffee. She still needs a sugar or 2 now


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

I wonder what proportion of forum members are sugar users? Has this been aired before? Surely, sugar alters the taste profile hugely. (And don't call me Shirley).


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> I wonder what proportion of forum members are sugar users? Has this been aired before? Surely, sugar alters the taste profile hugely. (And don't call me Shirley).


Used to take sugar in coffee, but no longer do since I've started this obsession with coffee.


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Dont mention flavoured syrups....yuk


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Used to take sugar in coffee, but no longer do since I've started this obsession with coffee.


Was that a deliberate decision when you started getting into coffee or did you just drift into it?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Probably a bit of both. I used to put sugar in coffee to counter the bitterness. As my shots have improved they're much sweeter so don't use it.

Having said that I've never taken sugar in Tea


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Oddly I do take sugar in breakfast tea, but not in early grey, Assam or Darjeeling


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

I have to have sugar in my coffee, and quite a lot of it (although I drink brewed coffee not espresso). If I put slightly too little sugar in the cup then I can taste nothing but bitterness. If I add a little more then suddenly it's as if the flavours of the coffee have snapped into 'focus', and I can taste all the things that people describe about that particular bean.

I'm convinced there's a real difference in the way people taste coffee. I don't have any kind of sweet tooth - for me, chocolate must be 70%+ cocoa, and I like hoppy beers, stouts and dry lagers. But I can make a cup of coffee such that my wife can taste nothing but sugar, and I can taste nothing but bitterness. It's all very odd...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

gcogger said:


> I have to have sugar in my coffee, and quite a lot of it (*although I drink brewed coffee not espresso*). If I put slightly too little sugar in the cup then *I can taste nothing but bitterness*. If I add a little more then suddenly it's as if the flavours of the coffee have snapped into 'focus', and I can taste all the things that people describe about that particular bean.
> 
> I'm convinced there's a real difference in the way people taste coffee. I don't have any kind of sweet tooth - for me, chocolate must be 70%+ cocoa, and I like hoppy beers, stouts and dry lagers. But I can make a cup of coffee such that my wife can taste nothing but sugar, and I can taste nothing but bitterness. It's all very odd...


What beans are you using? I struggle to get any bitterness out of brewed coffee and my tollorance is very low!


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

At the moment I have a couple of Rave coffees on the go: Papua New Guinea Sigri and Old Brown Java. I've also tried lighter, more fruity, coffees with the same result. They all have slightly different levels of bitterness, and the same is true if I change the method of brewing, but to me it's all just variations on 'very bitter'! As I said, I'm convinced that people taste coffee differently - I wish I didn't need to add sugar!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hi Gcogger,

Can you break down your extraction methods for us? Coffee is a bittering drink, to some degree, but research tends to show that there is a range where coffee has favourable flavours, perhaps we might be able to ensure you are getting in that range? Also, do you use paper filtered methods? Many methods that rely on metal screens/filters often allow small particles into the cup...sometimes this isn't an issue, but often these particles accentuate bitterness.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Wouldnt old brown Java be a medium-dark-dark roast? I suspect bitterness is unavoidable in that case?

But yes would be good to see a breakdown of brew method


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## Spukey (Nov 4, 2012)

My palet seems to develop the more coffee i try. It was the same with wine, i used to think wine tasted like wine and it was either dry or sweet. Now i have an extensive wine pallet from reading tasting notes and trying lots of it.

Drink away and forget about it, your palet will eventually develop. It may take time but enjoy the journey and process. The chances are the beans/roasts you like now will not be the beans/roasts you like once your palet develops.

Spukey


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

I've tried various techniques using a cafetiere/french press, but I'm now mostly using a Clever Coffee Dripper with paper filter as I prefer a clean, clear cup. I've tried most of the techniques discussed on the (rather long) Clever Coffee Dripper thread, with anything from ~50g/l to ~65g/l. I've settled on:

- Pre-warm the CCD and filter

- Grind beans a little to the 'filter' side of the 'french press' setting

- Using kettle a little after boiling, start timer and add enough water to soak the grounds, allowing them to 'bloom'

- At ~30 seconds add the rest of the water, stir, put lid on (I've checked the temperature of the water in the CCD here and it's ~92-93)

- At ~2:45 stir and start to draw down - this takes about a minute to a minute and a half, which seems to depend as much on the filter paper as the grind

As I say, though, whatever technique I use produces coffee that, to me (but not my wife), tastes extremely bitter. I've tried much longer and much shorter infusion times, different grinds, different water temperature, different filter papers etc. The same is true for every cup of coffee I've ever drunk, however, so I'm convinced it's the way my taste buds work and not the coffee!

Sorry - I appear to be dragging the thread rather off-topic...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

What grinder is it?

Your tollorance for bitter might be very very low, in which case try some lighter roasts for brewed


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

gcogger said:


> I've tried various techniques using a cafetiere/french press, but I'm now mostly using a Clever Coffee Dripper with paper filter as I prefer a clean, clear cup. I've tried most of the techniques discussed on the (rather long) Clever Coffee Dripper thread, with anything from ~50g/l to ~65g/l. I've settled on:
> 
> - Pre-warm the CCD and filter
> 
> ...


First thing I'd try with CCD is stick with the current grind, dose to 15-16g, 70g/l brew ratio and treat it like a pourover...start on the cup/carafe, bloom 30seconds with 30g, then gently pour little spirals around the middle (I would keep the pour constant & slow/drippy, rather than pulse it). See what you get ...stir it up so you are not just tasting off the top, make sure to take a couple of sips...if not happy then pulse another 20g of water through...repeat...knock it on the head if you have to add more than 260g total.

Are you using the Filtropa white papers?

You're probably right, it may be the way you perceive coffee, but a hopeless case is only a hopeless case when all hope is lost...;-) There are so many permutations, there's got to be room for a little hope.


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## gcogger (May 18, 2013)

Well thanks for all the help guys, but it's confirmed that I'm a hopeless case







Yes, I'm using the Filtropa white papers, but tasting the coffee at any stage just gives me varying degrees of overwhelming bitterness that masks every other flavour!

It's not really a problem, though, as (with just the right amount of sugar, of course







) I can get great enjoyment from the coffee and appreciate the differences between different beans or, say, the difference between 4 days past roast and 7 days past roast. I just find it interesting that people can taste such different things in the same cup of coffee, which I guess is where I came in.


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