# User or grinder error...?



## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

Apols for the lengthy post in advance...

I struggle to get decent shots with some beans so today I decided to run some experiments, log some numbers then come here for thoughts, guidance and advice. I have some suspicions the grinder isn't playing nicely, but on the other hand I've only a month's experience brewing espresso so it could be me.

I had some Has Bean Blake left in the hopper, so I ran some shots with the intention of seeing if I can brew repeatable numbers back to back, with something I usually struggle with.

The values below are in order of: grinder setting, dry weight in (g), fluid weight out (g), duration. In all cases below I was aiming for approx 1:1.8 ratio with 18g and 33g out, stopping the pump on 31g.


Pull 1: 1J, 18.1, 31.9, 40.76

Pull 2: 1J, 18.1, 33.0, 45.04

Pull 3: 1L, 18.1, 32.4, 39.94

Pull 4: 1L, 18.1, 33.2, 31.94 (best tasting)


The point of this test was to try and be consistent. Off the back of the first two shots I dialled the grind back a couple of micro-settings and pulled two more. The variance between each of the pairs seems quite high, but the second pair runs a touch slower than the first as expected.

At this point I'd ran out of Blake, so I poured a bag of Has Bean Kicker into the hopper. I pulled a shot with the same grinder setting as the previous shot, and it was way off. I then made a guess where might be more appropriate and started keeping records again:


Pull 5: 1G, 18.0, 33.5, 15.82 (spritzing)

Pull 6: 1C, 18.0, 32.5, 20.71

Pull 7: 1A, 18.0, 33.5, 24.78 (tasted 'ok', could be better)

Pull 8: 1A, 18.0, 33.5, 20.44


The first show was way off, so I tightened grind for second, still way off, so down to finest grind possible. and still decent numbers but not quite where I wanted (25-30 seconds).

At this point I'm not happy with the grinder performance. I've had a niggling feeling it's not right for some time, but dismissed it due to my inexperience. Yesterday I tightened the adjustment allen bolt half a turn as I wasn't happy with the finest grind - this produced a fine grind which choked the Silvia on 1A, whereas it wasn't previously.

In an attempt to test the Vario's adjustment is working as it should I ran the grinder then adjusted both arms to course, then the macro to its finest setting followed by the micro arm to it's finest setting.

Here's the results of the next four pulls:


Pull 9: 1A, 18.0, 34.9, 13.61 (spritzing)

Pull 10: 1A, 18.0, 34.3, 13.56 (some spritzing)

Pull 11: 2A, 18.0, 34.7, 13.65 (spritzing)

Pull 12: 1A, 18.0, 33.3, 12.97 (bad spritzing)


At shot three I tried changing the macro lever to two, to see if it made much difference, then for the third back to 1. I would expect to notice a significant change in brew time if I did this. Also, I had lots of spritzing for this batch, could this be because the grind is too course? With all of these being gushers, I didn't bother to taste them.

There was one more shot after this, which was the last of this bag. I didn't log the details, but the Mrs did her best to catch the routine for your scrutiny. Just in case I'm doing something daft. Do note though, throughout all of today's tests I did my best to be consistent and as accurate as possible.






I'm guess I'm paranoid the grinder is defective but I'm struggling to identify/prove that it is or isn't.

Any help gratefully appreciated!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Spritzing means channeling - notice in your clip you are banging the portafilter down several times on the bench - don't do this. Even the grinds using the NESW method with your index finger.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Agree with limiting the banging. I couldn't see that grinder you were using?

It there anyway you can single dose and grind into the basket with it locked into the naked pf?

In theory your grinder should be able to dispense a neat little mound of grinds into the middle of the basket.

Try what TSK suggested and see how you get on. Keep us posted.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Spritzing means channeling - notice in your clip you are banging the portafilter down several times on the bench - don't do this.


Thought the 'portafilter tap' was a Perger approved method of flattening the bed?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Thought the 'portafilter tap' was a Perger approved method of flattening the bed?


Yes with a grinder as uniform as the ek43. Otherwise it causes fine migration.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry apologies if I didn't explain or if I am now patronising. Single dosing is weighing the beans first then putting them into grinder.

As long as your grinder doesn't retain too much the weight that goes in the basket should be the about the dose of your beans you put in.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Thought the 'portafilter tap' was a Perger approved method of flattening the bed?


As I understand it, MP isn't advocating tapping/banging the portafilter on the work surface. He levels the grinds by tapping the side of the portafilter with the side of his finger. This helps distribute the grinds evenly without any impaction issues prior to tamping.....with a Pergtamp of course


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I would be very interested to see a side by side shot pulled, one with a "tap" and one without, from one of the members here who really knows what they are doing...

In my head I just can't see loose ground being tapped to flatten the bed causing a huge difference.

I'll have a play myself as well.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Just a thought......if the problem still having problems would something like WDT help rule out grinder inconsistencies? Any thought fellow forum members?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I have been tapping the PF on the rest for a week or so now, just to see what happens, i usually level out with finger then give it a couple of taps, then one firm tamp and finish with a polish.

I dont see any difference in the shot to be honest.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I was sure the forum's own garydyke1 said to tap it on the counter to level but could (or rather likely am) wrong.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I reckon i noted Dale at the Hasbean open day tapping.....


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## 7493 (May 29, 2014)

I'm a newb at this but I'm getting results I like from a gentle tap with the hand to level with a little finger action if it still looks uneven followed by a firm tamp, (approximately 30lbs) another tap on the side because my tamper is too small for the basket, a quick polish and dump anything which is still loose. (A few stray grains.) Haven't seen any channelling in the resultant pucks and the pucks are generally very solid and even.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I was sure the forum's own garydyke1 said to tap it on the counter to level but could (or rather likely am) wrong.


Let's see what Gary says


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Hopefully the mention of his name will summon him to the forum.....


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Hopefully the mention of his name will summon him to the forum.....


Like beetle juice?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Or Candy Man


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

If I place the basket central under the chute I do end up with a nice mound. I used to knock this down a bit with taps on the side of the portafilter but I found I was having to tap so hard that often a small gap would appear between the pre-tamped bed and the side of the basket - that didn't look good to me. Also I was finding the side-tap led to an uneven bed, which is why I change to a bottom-tap tactic. I tend to 'tap' fairly lightly, and look for an evenness to the bed to decide if I'd tapped enough.

That said, I'm happy to drop all that in favour of NSEW finger distribution . My only issue with this is that I end up pushing some of the grounds out of the basket losing some of what I'd previously weighed out. Any recommended watching of NSEW technique for beginners?









With regards to single dosing. I usually do to be fair, but decided to try loading the hopper to reduce the pop-corning. This was off the back of some reading as a result of a link on the forum I think. I'll move back to SD - felt I was wasting more beans filling the hopper anyhow.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

In fairness to the OP I've used "a tap" in tamping sequences and have had good results. Currently I don't though. I'm sure it will change again in a few weeks


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

froggystyle said:


> I reckon i noted Dale at the Hasbean open day tapping.....


with the machines and grinders we use , distribution can be very very lax and get away with it


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Tryfan said:


> If I place the basket central under the chute I do end up with a nice mound. I used to knock this down a bit with taps on the side of the portafilter but I found I was having to tap so hard that often a small gap would appear between the pre-tamped bed and the side of the basket - that didn't look good to me. Also I was finding the side-tap led to an uneven bed, which is why I change to a bottom-tap tactic. I tend to 'tap' fairly lightly, and look for an evenness to the bed to decide if I'd tapped enough.
> 
> That said, I'm happy to drop all that in favour of NSEW finger distribution . My only issue with this is that I end up pushing some of the grounds out of the basket losing some of what I'd previously weighed out. Any recommended watching of NSEW technique for beginners?
> 
> ...


Dosing, distribution and tamping is quite a personal thing. I think it boils down to what work and what works for you.

I've found trying to limit the faff works best me.

What make is you grinder? There might be some fellow users with some pointers.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

OPs grind isn't fine enough


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> OPs grind isn't fine enough


Couldn't get finer on that last batch on a Vario. Should I run be running out of finer settings with any beans with a 18g VST?

Changed to a bag of Finca Santa Petrona, and no issues now, but then I've been NSEWing and not bottom-tapping.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Tryfan said:


> Couldn't get finer on that last batch on a Vario. Should I run be running out of finer settings with any beans with a 18g VST?
> 
> Changed to a bag of Finca Santa Petrona, and no issues now, but then I've been NSEWing and not bottom-tapping.


Never used a Vario, but I would have thought it should be able to go fine enough.

Glad you're getting better results.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tryfan said:


> Couldn't get finer on that last batch on a Vario. Should I run be running out of finer settings with any beans with a 18g VST?
> 
> Changed to a bag of Finca Santa Petrona, and no issues now, but then I've been NSEWing and not bottom-tapping.


You might need to recalibrate the Vario's burrs if you can't go fine enough.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> You might need to recalibrate the Vario's burrs if you can't go fine enough.


Exactly


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

I recalibrated yesterday. If I understand correct I should be looking for a pitch change with the macro on its finest setting, and the micro as it approaches halfway.

I've done a quick video of how the grinder sounds today. There is a slight pitch change as the macro drops into its finest setting, and a definate change when the micro is approx 3/4 from the finest setting (macro on 1).






I guess my questions from the above help are:

Grinder on finest: Is it reasonable to expect to always choke my machine regardless of beans, assuming effective prep and a properly calibrated Vario?

Gushers with grinder on finest grind: Can these be caused by channelling from bottom tapping the basket? Gushers with spritzing also caused by too course a grind, or does the spritzing signify channelling only?

Grinder performance: Any methods I can use to demonstrate grinder is working as it should. I'm looking here to remove any doubt in the grinder to I can be assured it's all down to my lack of ability.

I've ploughed through £20 to £30 of beans in a couple of days - I can't sustain that rate for long.









Thanks for the help.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Yea, it is reasonable to assume that on the finest setting you should be choking your machine.

Tapping BEFORE tamping shouldnt cause gushing, taping after certianly can as it can cause a 'break' in the puck.

Channeling can be caused by very uneven distribution, try grinding into a separate container and really mixing up the grinds, then into your PF and tamping.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Just listened to the video, maybe someone with a vario can confirm as it may just be the plastic body, but that spin sounds very loud and 'buzzy' as its spinning without grinding.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

If you can hear a definite change in pitch as you move the macro switch to finest setting, this should indicate the burrs are beginning to touch. Did you recalibrate using an allen key to adjust the burrs via the hole under the exit chute?

Grinder on finest: Should definitely choke your machine.

Set the macro switch to two or two clicks from finest and the micro to finest setting and begin adjusting from there according to shots produced. Level the grinds in the basket using something like the Stockfleth move then keep the tamp pressure constant.

To check your grinder, grind at different settings through coarse to finest settings and examine the results. At finest, should resemble something approaching flour when rubbed between fingers which will be too fine for espresso extraction.


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> If you can hear a definite change in pitch as you move the macro switch to finest setting, this should indicate the burrs are beginning to touch. Did you recalibrate using an allen key to adjust the burrs via the hole under the exit chute?
> 
> Grinder on finest: Should definitely choke your machine.
> 
> ...


Thanks.

I've started distributing with my index finger and removing all taps entirely and so far things have been predictable. When I fine the grind, it runs slower, and faster for courser - all good. However, this was also a new bag of beans so that could be a factor too.

I've another HB bag left, so I'll report back when I'm into that.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've found that some beans are more forgiving than others.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've found that some beans are more forgiving than others.


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## Tryfan (Apr 11, 2012)

I'm quite a waythrough this bag of Jailbreak and so far all pulls bar one have been drinkable.

Still struggling with the finer aspects of the preparation, as I pulled a shot 18g in, 29g out in 24 seconds. I wanted it to flow a touch slower, so ground a micro setting finer, but the results were very simailr; perhaps slightly faster as I ended up with 31g in the cup after misjudging the cut off.

I'm not complaining after the mishap on Friday though.


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