# Need a bit of DB advice



## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I've just got myself a sage DB as an upgrade on my DTP and for the most part its a great upgrade.

Steaming milk is now so quick and easy and takes less than 1/4 of the time of the DTP and its much better quality. Steaming and pulling a shot at the same time is also really nice.

Its a bid sad but just having a much larger drip tray makes a big difference to me!

That being said I am struggling to get a really nice shot from this thing. I have a bottomless PF and the standard 58mm single walled double basket and no matter what I do it pretty much always ends up gushing through after an amount of time.

I'm dosing 18g but I have tried up to 20g to see if that made a difference.

Firstly, there is a bit of a gap between the basket and the PF around the lip. Probably around 1.5mm. Is this normal? The PF is quite hard to insert and I was wondering if this was why. Its obviously better once its heated up and pulled a few shots but still can be very stiff.

The pressure gauge is hitting 10bar consistently which is a bit high isn't it? Is it worth adjusting the OPV to make it max out at 9?

Im doing a timed shot at 7s pre-infusion and 23s full pressure just as a starting point but it always blonds and goes very watery too soon (usually after 4-5s of full pressure). I would say that its channelling but the puck looks fine. Would a high pressure cause channelling or make it more likely?

I feel like my grinder isn't up to scratch honestly (SGP) but until the Niche arrives I am stuck with it.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

What beans, how old are they and have you tried grinding finer?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mctrials23 said:


> I've just got myself a sage DB as an upgrade on my DTP and for the most part its a great upgrade.
> 
> Steaming milk is now so quick and easy and takes less than 1/4 of the time of the DTP and its much better quality. Steaming and pulling a shot at the same time is also really nice.
> 
> ...


You haven't told us what weight you get in the cup?

You can't go any finer?

Don't worry about blonding.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Beans are from foundry coffee roasters and they are just over 2 weeks old.

Weight in the cup usually gets up towards 60g in the 30s. I have made the grind finer but I eventually get to the point where the machine nearly chokes and about 8-10g comes out in 30s. Knock it up enough that it doesn't do that and its having the issue of suddenly coming through like a torrent. I assume from what is happening that the puck is suddenly cracking/channelling and the pressure then runs through unimpeded.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

How are you tamping, and with what?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Tamping with ~30lbs pressure and with a 58.5mm tamper. It got a little better when I stopped grinding straight into the portafilter and went to the effort of grinding into a cup and then stirring the grinds before emptying in the PF but not to the point of fixing the issue. The grind is very clumpy but its not a great grinder. I probably would accept this and wait for the Niche but now thats delayed until mid August thats not really an option.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mctrials23 said:


> Beans are from foundry coffee roasters and they are just over 2 weeks old.
> 
> Weight in the cup usually gets up towards 60g in the 30s. I have made the grind finer but I eventually get to the point where the machine nearly chokes and about 8-10g comes out in 30s. Knock it up enough that it doesn't do that and its having the issue of suddenly coming through like a torrent. I assume from what is happening that the puck is suddenly cracking/channelling and the pressure then runs through unimpeded.


What does"knock it up enough" mean?

Why do you write "the" before 30s? Hit your brew ratio in whatever time it takes, taste, then adjust grind to steer taste & note time. What ratio are you shooting for?

Very clumpy suggests that you might be too fine.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What does"knock it up enough" mean?


Knock the grind size up until it doesn't struggle to produce anything.



MWJB said:


> Why do you write "the" before 30s? Hit your brew ratio in whatever time it takes, taste, then adjust grind to steer taste & note time. What ratio are you shooting for?
> 
> Very clumpy suggests that you might be too fine.


I'm aiming for a rough 1:2 ratio and then I would play around from there to suit my taste. I'm using 30s because thats what everyone suggests should be a good amount of time to produce a 1:2 ratio in. I know its not a precise rule but I know that what I am doing currently isn't right.

If I was to give you a blow by blow account of what would happen to get a 1:2 ratio it would be the following.

7s pre-infusion nothing comes out

8-11s nice dark thick coffee starts coming from the basket

12-16s the flow increases massively and I have hit 36g from my 18g dose and the coffee is not great.

For the last part of the shot the coffee is very runny and light.

If I then grind finer I an 8-10g in 30s shot.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> Knock the grind size up until it doesn't struggle to produce anything.
> 
> I'm aiming for a rough 1:2 ratio and then I would play around from there to suit my taste. I'm using 30s because thats what everyone suggests should be a good amount of time to produce a 1:2 ratio in. I know its not a precise rule but I know that what I am doing currently isn't right.
> 
> ...


Ok ignore the 30 seconds its irrelevant

There must be a setting in-between the 8-10 grams shot and the 36 gram shot ?

Also where does the 60 gram shot you mentioned fit into all this ? How did that taste ?

Lastly tasting not great , is it bitter , overly acidic ? what ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mctrials23 said:


> Knock the grind size up until it doesn't struggle to produce anything.
> 
> I'm aiming for a rough 1:2 ratio and then I would play around from there to suit my taste. I'm using 30s because thats what everyone suggests should be a good amount of time to produce a 1:2 ratio in. I know its not a precise rule but I know that what I am doing currently isn't right.
> 
> ...


Aim for a bit longer ratio.

If going from one setting gives you 36g and the next gives you 10g, then it sounds the first setting sounds like you are too fine on the first shot.


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## ncrc51 (Mar 14, 2018)

10 bar would seem a bit high. 9 is probably a good target if you can adjust it then experiment with the grind to get your shot target time and volume. The grinder is pretty important. I had a MACAP M4 for a number of years and started having problems with channeling. Sold the M4 and bought a ROK hand grinder while on the wait list for a Titan Conical. My ROK results are much superior to the M4, although it does require a drop of water to eliminate static.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I think this is the problem, at one grind size it almost chokes and then when I move it up a notch it seems to do what I describe with the fast flow. I'm over caffeinated at the moment but I will try again tomorrow and report back.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

mctrials23 said:


> I've just got myself a sage DB as an upgrade on my DTP and for the most part its a great upgrade.
> 
> Firstly, there is a bit of a gap between the basket and the PF around the lip. Probably around 1.5mm. Is this normal? The PF is quite hard to insert and I was wondering if this was why. Its obviously better once its heated up and pulled a few shots but still can be very stiff.


I think that needs more explanation. The basket should fit over the lip on the portafiter and be a firm fit in it.

If it's a used machine the grouphead seal can be a bit hard if left unused for some time but it will soften with use. New ones are similar - initially it may take some effort to get the handle at 90 degrees where it should be. Many shots latter they soften.

Later you mentioned 8 to 10g - that won't be enough for the DB single. You will be tamping onto the shoulder in the basket not the grounds. 14g may be more like it.







That's last weight I tried in it and it did seem to tamp but it might take more.

I haven't had any problems producing drink with my SGP and clumps are far too loose to have any effect if any are produced. I have been weighing beans in with it which does tend to produce more loose ones. They tend to break up when I tap the grounds down.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> Firstly, there is a bit of a gap between the basket and the PF around the lip. Probably around 1.5mm. Is this normal? The PF is quite hard to insert and I was wondering if this was why. Its obviously better once its heated up and pulled a few shots but still can be very.


Is that a sage naked PF and the sage standard basket?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Is that a sage naked PF and the sage standard basket?


Mine looks like this with the sage stock 18g. It's less of a gap with VST


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Yeah, thats exactly how it looks. I assumed from using the DTP that the basket would be much more flush with the PF.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Your scales weigh to 0.1g of dose?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Yeah, scales weigh to 0.1g and I'm always dosing 18g. I just got a passable shot (18g in 36g out in 30s) after upping the pre-infusion to 10s instead of 7s. Still not great but I'm in the right area. I think I might try to change the OPV to sit at 9 bar and see if that makes a difference. Would I be right in thinking that if upping the pre-infusion to 10s improved the shot then the high pressure of 10 bar is perhaps partially to blame. Hitting a not completely wet puck with 10 bar would be more likely to cause channelling than a lower pressure.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Just got a good 18g in 36g out shot in ~40s with 10s pre-infusion. I think using the manual button to pre-infuse until I see coffee starting to come through the basket and then allowing it to come up to full pressure has worked nicely. Think I am getting the hang of this. Thanks for all the help guys.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

IIrc @dfk41 runs his DB at 6 bar.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

mctrials23 said:


> I think this is the problem, at one grind size it almost chokes and then when I move it up a notch it seems to do what I describe with the fast flow. I'm over caffeinated at the moment but I will try again tomorrow and report back.


Sorry, I tired to look for the grinder.... which grinder have you got?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

You can tweak the pressure of the shot using the hot water dial which is quite cool so I might have a play with that. I've got the smart grinder pro by the way.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> You can tweak the pressure of the shot using the hot water dial which is quite cool so I might have a play with that. I've got the smart grinder pro by the way.


You can adjust it by extending the pre infusion to say 70 secs and lowering the pressure. It effectively makes the whole shot lower pressure.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

What grinder have you got again?


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

You've quoted my post with my grinder in it!









Its a sage smart grinder pro


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I've just had a quick play with the 60s pre-infusion and changing the pre-infusion pressure and first time I pulled a shot at 84% I ended up with 9 bars pressure and a much better consistency of shot. I might at some point tweak the OPV itself but at the moment I think I will try more experiments with adjusting the pre-infusion pressure and just running the shot at that pressure for the whole shot.

Unfortunately I am about to run out of beans but its nice to have a machine thats so easy to play around with. I'm really glad I bought this and hopefully with the next batch of beans I will get it really dialled in for some lovely espresso.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I switched from a BE to a DB. I had a brief play with infusion and brew pressure but decided that it would take a while to find out what that can do so set 12 secs pre infusion and left pump pressure at it's default. The reason for changing the infusion time was down to the BE. I was finding grind settings that didn't produce any flow during infusion - not a good idea for me on the BE. The main difference I have found is the need for more coffee on my favourite bean. 15 point something against 9's. That seems to be down to brewing against the BE's OPV valve setting which seems to be about 15 bar using it's single basket. I'm not using a Sage basket for my 15g doses. The Sage DB single with the bean I am using might need that quantity to tamp without problems but having had too many problems with it I'm not currently using it. DTP? Wouldn't surprise me if it had the same OPV setting as it comes.

:secret:I started comparing a Mazzer Mini with the SGP. On the face of it both will grind to the same sort of level but I have been weighing beans into the SGP for some time and that doesn't seem to be a good idea with MM coated in oil. It's bean fine with more ordinary beans. I need to clean it out thoroughly now. Odd as I have ground loads of the same bean on the grinder in the BE so I am inclined to put it down to weighing in messing the grind up. Taste differs but it does seem to shift it the same way as conical burrs should do - according to some - sharper as I would put it.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Odd as I have ground loads of the same bean on the grinder in the BE so I am inclined to put it down to weighing in messing the grind up. Taste differs but it does seem to shift it the same way as conical burrs should do - according to some - sharper as I would put it.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Weighing the beans into the PF can't mess up the grind, as beans have left the grinder.

Are you saying that with the Mazzer, even when going coarser, you cannot make the shots sharper? Changing the settings on either grinder will change the taste, it's hard to tell what constants you have between shots.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Weighing the beans into the PF can't mess up the grind, as beans have left the grinder.
> 
> Are you saying that with the Mazzer, even when going coarser, you cannot make the shots sharper? Changing the settings on either grinder will change the taste, it's hard to tell what constants you have between shots.


Popcorning. No doubt you are aware that a weight of beans over the burrs does have an effect on that. The problem I found in my case was a scattering of tiny particles of oily beans. I may try moding the grinder to get round that but would have to over ride the hopper check switch.

There are suggestions around that conical and flat have different taste profiles. Eg a long way down this page -







interesting link in other respects. At least he tried to come to a solution on just how much to spend on a grinder. I also think that his comments on the SGP are correct but maybe conveniences should also be mentioned compared with the modification route. I found that the bean I use most improved as it aged - probably down to often using them too soon and found no need to adjust the grind setting. I did find that I needed to maintain a certain min level in the hopper to get constant output and eventually also thoroughly wash the hopper out.

http://www.latteartguide.com/2016/07/best-coffee-grinder.html

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Popcorning. No doubt you are aware that a weight of beans over the burrs does have an effect on that. The problem I found in my case was a scattering of tiny particles of oily beans. I may try moding the grinder to get round that but would have to over ride the hopper check switch.
> 
> There are suggestions around that conical and flat have different taste profiles. Eg a long way down this page -
> 
> ...


If you single dose all the time then the popcorning will be constant & not messed up.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

New bean and there are now 0 issues with runny pours or the grind. I do seem to get the odd batch of beans that I can't get the hang of for some reason. Happened on the DTP as well. It obviously always happens whenever I buy expensive beans which is annoying.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The only problem like that I had with the DB is sorting out the correct range of fill heights. I expected it to behave as the BE did but it didn't. Too low a fill did all sorts and taste varied a lot. I don't usually work as @dfk41 seems to though. I usually find myself aiming for a weak impression of the shower screen on top of the puck. That's the max for me, some room for the grinds to expand but very slightly restricted. Below that min depends on what the puck looks like. It still needs to be reasonably firm and not too inclined to leave much behind when it's knocked out. Usually the top can be a bit wavy around the min fill level. I suspect the difference is down to a far more efficient 3 way on the DB compared with the one on the BE. Unlike the BE the DB could suck up low fills and stick them to the shower screen.

I've tried a number of med and dark roasted beans and a couple of blends and neither the SGP or the grinder in the BE has caused me any problems. Mostly in the single and also another basket that could hold about 14g. This was on the BE. Usually tuning to just open the OPV on it or very close to that point. I haven't made much use of the double. It turns out that the OPV opens at 15 bar on the BE so grinding must have been pretty fine. I was talking to Sage about this and she said but the coffee just dribbles out if you do that - the fact that I could balance it says something about the grinders.







Not sure what though.

Comparing SGP against Mazzer Mini will have to wait a while. The SGP started screaming clean me. If the grinds can't get out of the burrs easily because things have backed up it does mess up the grind and the weight out goes all over the place. My initial impression is that the 2 can produce a different taste and with some uncertainty both can grind fine enough to more or less choke the DB on the basket I was using at the time which held circa 10g or so. The Mazzer definitely can.








Really it would have been a good idea not to use oily beans when I started comparing them and also have really sorted out the dose and basket I need to use.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

mctrials23 said:


> New bean and there are now 0 issues with runny pours or the grind. I do seem to get the odd batch of beans that I can't get the hang of for some reason. Happened on the DTP as well. It obviously always happens whenever I buy expensive beans which is annoying.


Looks like I have managed to find one too so spoke too soon. Part of the problem initially looked to be down to grinding into a container and then inverting it over the filter basket. It can result in grinds at the top being more compacted than the ones at the bottom when they are in the basket and that can mess up tamping. I am sure that has caused problems on some beans.

Ruled that out and still had a gusher. Looked like it could be down to something I have only had on the DB. Grinds too low but fill the available space after the shot is pulled so looks to be ok. Puck even comes out nicely.

Tried more grinds and it still gushed. All I have left is clumps messing up tamping but I'll try even more grinds first.

I've never had to use the SGP at a setting of 4 before. 6 or more would be more usual.








One weird thing is that the drinks are rather nice even if I have to tip some out to get a bit of milk in.

John

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