# 9 bars



## r12324

Hi Dears,

I purchased Lelit Victoria 58mm

I got a feeling that my coffee is underextracted very light colour of the cream, much sour taste in most of the cases, i change so many option of coffees... Almost same results

Can someone explane how set up the pressure to 9 bars?

This 9 bars shold be with the coffee or with blind filter?

If with coffee... How many grams?

With the blind filter my mashine nanometer is at 10 bars


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## DavecUK

r12324 said:


> Hi Dears,
> 
> I purchased Lelit Victoria 58mm
> 
> I got a feeling that my coffee is underextracted very light colour of the cream, much sour taste in most of the cases, i change so many option of coffees... Almost same results
> 
> Can someone explane how set up the pressure to 9 bars?
> 
> This 9 bars shold be with the coffee or with blind filter?
> 
> If with coffee... How many grams?
> 
> With the blind filter my mashine nanometer is at 10 bars


 With the blind filter to 9 bar, or whatever you want but you have to account for water expansion on heating during the shot as cold water enters the brew circuit/boiler. This causes a slower secondary rise after the initial one peaks. It can be difficult to spot with a vibe pump machine because the rise is relatively slow and may blend in with the rise due to water expansion.


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## MediumRoastSteam

r12324 said:


> Hi Dears,
> I purchased Lelit Victoria 58mm
> I got a feeling that my coffee is underextracted very light colour of the cream, much sour taste in most of the cases, i change so many option of coffees... Almost same results
> Can someone explane how set up the pressure to 9 bars?
> This 9 bars shold be with the coffee or with blind filter?
> If with coffee... How many grams?
> 
> With the blind filter my mashine nanometer is at 10 bars


You should forget about the pressure. 10bar with blind filter seems right.

How many grams.... well, it seems that you have some to learn.

But before we start:

- is the machine heated up properly? Do you leave enough time for the machine to get up to the correct temperature, including the group?

- do you have a grinder? If so, which one?

- which coffee are you using?

- are you filling the basket all the way? How many grams of coffee are you putting in?

- are you using the double basket?

What you are describing seems to be related to everything but he pressure or the machine.


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## r12324

Hi

My grinder is Lelit William 50mm flat

I use 18 grams of coffee normallybat between 1-2 positions of the grinder.

For 2 coffees in my opinion im using 18 grams basket... I putchase also bottom less filter and mix up the baskets... So im not sure which comes with the mashine wbich comes with the bottom less

For the prep i use 18 grams, then i put a dising ring, kind of wdt tool, leveler, and calibrated tamper

The mashine is at 98 degrees, i measure the temperature of the leaking coffee it is arround 80-82oC


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## MediumRoastSteam

r12324 said:


> Hi My grinder is Lelit William 50mm flat I use 18 grams of coffee normallybat between 1-2 positions of the grinder.
> 
> For 2 coffees in my opinion im using 18 grams basket... I putchase also bottom less filter and mix up the baskets... So im not sure which comes with the mashine wbich comes with the bottom less
> 
> For the prep i use 18 grams, then i put a dising ring, kind of wdt tool, leveler, and calibrated tamper
> 
> The mashine is at 98 degrees, i measure the temperature of the leaking coffee it is arround 80-82oC


Ok. Looks like you know a few things already, which is great.

18g is usually a good starting point, for a "standard" basket.

You say under extracted and sour, which is usually associated with water not being hot enough. Temperature inside the boiler at 98C is too hot in my opinion. Usually stick to between 93 and 94, maybe 96 for very light roasts.

Which coffee do you use? Is it freshly roasted? Where is it from?

And, how long do you let the machine heat up before pulling a shot? If you do a subsequent shot, is it better?

What's the extraction like when you use the bottomless porta filter?

How long is the shot? (Total time incl. pre infusion, and how long that is). How many grams did it give you in the cup?


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## r12324

Hello,



> You say under extracted and sour, which is usually associated with water not being hot enough. Temperature inside the boiler at 98C is too hot in my opinion. Usually stick to between 93 and 94, maybe 96 for very light roasts.


 So.. The lighter roasted coffees request lower boiler temperatures..

I use fresh roasted coffees not more than a week, Brazillian, Guatemala, now i purchase Peruvian coffee.

The mashine is heated arround a 20-30 min worming time. The group is heated as well as the cups. No difference between the current and subsequent cups.

The bottom less... I avoid to use it, because lack of good basket. I waiting the VST single basket, mist probably will be better than the stock basket.

The shot timing.... I use 25 sec. Brewing time and few seconds of pre-infusion time. Normally it resulting 25-30ml of coffee.


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## MediumRoastSteam

r12324 said:


> Hello,
> 
> 
> 
> You say under extracted and sour, which is usually associated with water not being hot enough. Temperature inside the boiler at 98C is too hot in my opinion. Usually stick to between 93 and 94, maybe 96 for very light roasts.
Click to expand...

 So.. The lighter roasted coffees request lower boiler temperatures.. 
I use fresh roasted coffees not more than a week, Brazillian, Guatemala, now i purchase Peruvian coffee. 
The mashine is heated arround a 20-30 min worming time. The group is heated as well as the cups. No difference between the current and subsequent cups. 
The bottom less... I avoid to use it, because lack of good basket. I waiting the VST single basket, mist probably will be better than the stock basket. 
The shot timing.... I use 25 sec. Brewing time and few seconds of pre-infusion time. Normally it resulting 25-30ml of coffee.

Your first sentence, incorrect: Lighter roasts usually require *higher* temperature than darker roasts. See my previous post.

VST single basket.... do you mean the 7g one? You'll require a new tamper for that due to the design of the basket. If I were you, I would only use that once you figure what your technique.

You seem to be blaming the equipment rather than your technique. Like, you say that the VST will be better than the stock basket. Maybe, but the stock basket will produce a fine cup of coffee nonetheless. VST are finicky things, and will potentially add to your current issues and will expose defects in basket prep even more.

So, this is my advice to you:

- reduce the temperature to 95C and see how it goes. As I said, between 93 and 94 is a good starting point, specially for the coffees you are using. But since it is at 98 currently, try 95 first. 98 is way too hot.
- use the double basket that came with the machine. For now, ignore the single baskets.
- use the naked portafilter as a diagnostic tool. You'll soon find out if you have channeling due to poor basket prep technique.
- make sure the portafilter is hot and has been warmed up with the machine, leaving it loosely attached to the group. Otherwise sour coffee is one of the symptoms;
- put 18g of coffee in it. Other times try 17 or 16 and see what works best.
- distribute the coffee and tamp;
- work to a ratio, starting with a 1:2, e.g: 18g of coffee should produce 36g of coffee liquid in the cup. 
- aim for a time of between 30 and 35 seconds including a 3s to 4s pre-infusion. 
- adjust the grind accordingly.


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## dncarreira

@MediumRoastSteam I'm interested in understanding your suggested temps. I have a 57mm grace and have of set it to 102C to avoid intense sourness or acidity from some single origins. I also have to increase extraction times to 1min. Even so, acidity is too high. I figure there's a 5C drop from boiler to brew head...


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## MediumRoastSteam

dncarreira said:


> @MediumRoastSteam I'm interested in understanding your suggested temps. I have a 57mm grace and have of set it to 102C to avoid intense sourness or acidity from some single origins. I also have to increase extraction times to 1min. Even so, acidity is too high. I figure there's a 5C drop from boiler to brew head...


The temperature at the group head (at least on e61 machines) should be around 94-95 usually. The rule of thumb (and every rule has its exceptions) is that you go hotter for light roasts, colder for darker. Or just keep at that temp.

When you say your temperature is 102, is they at the boiler? There's an offset between the boiler and the group. On e61 machines, that's usually 15C or thereabouts. It's important that you understand your machine and adjust by taste. 102C at the group is too hot.

Just saw a picture of your machine and it's not e61. I never used one of those so I don't know what the parameters of the LCC are. On my Profitec 700, you could adjust the temperature of the water inside the boiler, and it had an offset parameter to, configurable, for the difference of temp by the time the water is at the group. That's what the display would show.

So, let's assume that what you read on the displayed your machine is the temperature in the boiler, and there's a difference of 5C by the time it reaches the group. Therefore, your water temp at the group is 97C. If it works for you, then all is good.


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## dncarreira

Yes that's how it is in the lelits in this range. It shows temp in the boiler and it's up to the user to figure the brew temp.


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## MediumRoastSteam

dncarreira said:


> Yes that's how it is in the lelits in this range. It shows temp in the boiler and it's up to the user to figure the brew temp.


Ok. So when you say "I'm interested in understanding your suggested temps" does it make sense now?


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## dncarreira

Well yes bc you were telling to set temp to 95C. This is too low for the Victoria which is like my grace model. The PID shows the boiler temp, and having a drop of at least 5C then your suggestion adjusted to this would be 100C. So I can now follow your reasoning. I got the 5C drop from a post where the author measured a series of shots on a previous model but very similar. I tried to measure myself but couldn't get it right. From drinking lots of bad shots I figure the drop should be around 5C but not sure.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Ok, so In that case the temperature of the water at the OPs machine is kind of good. 93C at the group. Maybe OP can increase to 100C in display and see if it I improves?


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## JanStein

Hi,

I think I can contribute to this, as I had the same problem.
I'm owning a Lelit Victoria (PL 91T), which is a nicely looking machine, but all shots were quite sour.

After quite some research I found out that the sister model Elisabeth (two boilers) comes with a factory set temperature offset of 10 degrees (technical menu "Ec:10"). This means that the boiler temperature is 10 degrees higher than the value shown in the PID, as the water is cooling down from boiler to the brewing group.

Strangely the Victoria is coming with a factory setting for the offset of zero (technical menue "E:0"). This means that if you put your PID on a Victoria to 92°, in fact you'll have a temperature at the brewing group of 87° (if the offset is only 5 degrees, as some state) or even worse only 82° (!), if the offset is 10° like the factory setting on the Elisabeth states.

So this is quite confusing on the Victoria, as most of the normal users will be brewing their espressos far too cold.

So my espressos on my Victoria were much too sour as I had the PID temperature on 92°. I increased the PID temperature then to 96° with better results, and now I'm running it on 99°. I will even try with up to 102° on the PID and see how it works (like mentioned above, the temperature shown on the PID is the temperature before the offset to the brewing group).

Alternatively, you may enter the technical menu (see several youtube instructions how to get there) and change the offset value on the Victoria from 0 to e.g. 5, 7 or even 10 sec ("E:7" instead of "E:0"). Then you may work with the PID temperature as your expected temperature at the brewing group.

Hope this helps.

Regards,

Jan


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