# Bottomless PF chanelling Gaggia Classic + Eureka Mignon



## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Hi all,

Long time lurker, first time poster but let me thank you all for being instrumental in my decision to buy a Eureka Mignon grinder a couple months back. My coffee has, as the missus puts it, "really turned a corner".

So much so that I thought it was time to buy a bottomless PF and take things up a notch. Whilst my first couple of attempts were flawless this was clearly beginners luck as I've yet to get a pour that doesn't spray everywhere since those initial attempts roughly 2 months ago.

I've Googled and trawled these forums like crazy, adopted the WDT, stopped knocking the PF and even tried nutating for a while but to no avail. I'm hoping someone with an eye for these things will be able to spot what could be causing the problem.

Just a side note: the taste is still great but I'm not one for saying "if it aint broke" - I'm too much of a perfectionist.

Here's the workflow I've settled on for the last month, for consistency's sake:

- Warm up Gaggia Classic for 20 mins

- Preheat my espresso cup and my latte cup (I drink lattes pretty much exclusively but the missus prefers Americano)

- Grind directly into PF on setting of exactly 3 on the Mignon

- Dosing 18g in a standard 14g basket (only so that the grinds aren't a mile away from the shower head after tamping).

- I use the Mignon's timer rather than weighing each time.

- I'm using the Italian blend from Bella Barista

- WDT with a cocktail stick until there are no 'boulders'

- Remove the yogurt pot and level the grinds with my finger. After WDT they fall slightly below the rim of the basket.

- Solid tap on the worktop to settle the grinds

- One big tamp then a lighter Staub tamp (mainly because the 58" tamper I bought seems more like 57" and there's always an abundance of grinds left on the walls)

- Purge the Classic and wait for the ready light to come on, then it's go time

- I've checked with a 5p coin that I've still go clearance from the shower head with the amount the Mignon is automatically dosing

- I'm getting a 2oz shot in 30 seconds (with added spritzes of course)

- Steam milk etc, make latte

Things I've considered (and seem to have eliminated as causing the spritzing)

- Lack of WDT (since adopted)

- I've tried eliminating the tap of the PF to settle the grinds

- I've started doing what I can to regulate the temperature by purging before a pour (my Gaggia is un-modded)

- I've tried eliminating Staub and just doing a single tamp

- Also tried nutating

- I'm sure to polish without pressure when tamping so as to not twist on the puck

- I've tried eliminating all optional components and just going dose->tamp->pour (some of the WBC experts recommend this, but I suspect they're not contending with entry level home kits!)

If anyone can offer any suggestions as to why I can't seem to eliminate this spritzing, I'm all ears. At the minute I'm truly happy with my coffee after 3 years of self-teaching (only just figured out latte art) and eliminating this spritzing would complete my world. Until I decide to tackle VST baskets.

Thanks for any assistance,

Will


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Welcome !

A clip of your basket prep and nutation might help . Plus one of an extraction .


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Bumping as I'll provide help once I get home from work in 5 hours.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Will do - might have to wait until I can get the missus to help though as I don't have a tripod!

Please forgive me in advance for the stage fright


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Phone clip will be fine , start with the extraction .


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

**shameless plug**

Have a look at this video.

If you can just film like that (I did with an Ipad), we can help to assess your situation more.

One thing I have found though, try tamping lighter and also don't overdose the basket.

The aim isn't to have a really flat bed of compact grounds, its to create an evenly distributed bed of coffee which will stop enough water to enable a build up of 9 bars, but no more.

If you tamp too hard or have too much resistance, then the water (as water will not compress beyond a certain point) will just break through your puck at the point of least resistance rather than seeping through it.

In summarisation; dose less, tamp less and grind finer (a finer grind will form a more cohesive puck) and aim to get a repeatable weight of coffee out in a certain time as total flow into the cup is also a sign of channeling.

Don't worry about the airspace above the puck, if the basket was designed for 14g, then the airspace you have will be fine for 14g (you should try something like 16g maybe?).

Also, continue with WDT, don't polish or tamp more than you need to. Once you have made that puck, you don't want to disturb it.


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

Also, standard rules apply, freshly (but not too fresh) roasted coffee, the sacrifice of 5 orphans to Vishlar and your cock tucked between yours legs for the duration of the pour.

The orphan one isn't a rule as such though.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Wombat said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Long time lurker, first time poster but let me thank you all for being instrumental in my decision to buy a Eureka Mignon grinder a couple months back. My coffee has, as the missus puts it, "really turned a corner".
> 
> ...


If you arent fixing a consistant dose then I would argue it is impossible to select an appropriate grind setting.

You say you are using the timer instead of weighing, have you validated the accuracy of the timer in terms of repeat doses?

It might chuck out 16.5g first shot, 14.9 second, 17.5 third ? These doses would require differing grind settings to maintain the appropriate flow rate.

Have you managed to choke the machine? or come anywhere near? Your tamper might not be creating a tight seal if too narrow.

A video would certainly help


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

DISTRIBUTION

No doubt as well as spritzers you get dead spots (areas where no flow occurs, appears like holes in the flow). This basically means you dont have an even bed of coffee across your basket. Several potential reasons for this but from your explanation of process I would look at:

Basket: is it a 14g basket? If so why dose well above the designed weight?

Grind: the Mignon is a good grinder but can be clumpy, grind into a pot and stir then move to the portafilter, I never found WDT directly in the basket to work effectively

Tamp: lighter the better, if you are getting dead spots in the centre then try nutating (again lightly)

Pressure: what pressure is your Classic at? If it is a Phillips version and you haven't adjusted the OPV then this could be forcing the coffee out at too high a pressure


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I know the bean you are using and if I am right, it does not have a roasted on date, but a best before, which is usually a year ahead. There is a good chance these are not what we would call fresh. try and pick up some beans that are recently roasted. You may find that this helps you no end


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I know the bean you are using


Did he mention that?


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## big dan (Apr 11, 2012)

Yup Bella barista Milan blend. I would also recommend trying different beans as you could be going out of your mind trying to fix a problem that isn't your fault, the beans!

Let us know how you get on!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

forzajuve said:


> Basket: is it a 14g basket? If so why dose well above the designed weight?
> 
> Grind: the Mignon is a good grinder but can be clumpy, grind into a pot and stir then move to the portafilter, I never found WDT directly in the basket to work effectively


Agree with the advice given so far. Good point about the weighing the dose in and not using the time. I've never used it on my Mignon.

Strangely enough I originally started out grinding /stirring into a cup then changed to grinding directly into the PF and stirring. I've always found better results with directly in the basket, but might give the cup option another go.

I think a Video clip of the prep would really help.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'd considering doing the OPV if the rest of your technique is good. I struggled a bit with my Oscar before doing the OPV (did it straight away on the Classic so don't have much point of reference with that)


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Thanks all for your suggestions!

I'm noting in particular the comments about overdosing - I initially overdosed because Google and many people were doing it so I figured it was correct (to fix showerhead distance) but, in the interest of changing only one thing at a time I'm going to concentrate on this issue first.

The beans do have a roast date and I'm usually using them up within 3 weeks to a month of the date









Here is a video of what is quite possibly the worst extraction to date:


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Err, apologies for the lack of formatting in the above post. Seems the android app doesn't like the newline function...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You are not grinding fine enough IMO


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Yeah I just reduced the dose to 14g and got a 15 second shot. I think we've found at least one cause.

Thank you all for removing the latest barrier to in my path to perfection


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Try 16g at the same grind setting and stop the shot at 30 seconds - what does the resulting beverage weigh?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

The shot did look quick, try the above suggestion and see what the output is in weight.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

I've tried a finer grind at 14.0g with a light tamp. Still a little spitting but much less than before and given the radical change in grind setting it's to be expected.

That yielded a 2oz shot weighing 55.2g. For all my googling I haven't the faintest idea what my end product should actually be weighing!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Wombat said:


> I've tried a finer grind at 14.0g with a light tamp. Still a little spitting but much less than before and given the radical change in grind setting it's to be expected.
> 
> That yielded a 2oz shot weighing 55.2g. For all my googling I haven't the faintest idea what my end product should actually be weighing!


If it's a 14g dose it should be approx 22.5g output. Try increasing either the dose, tamping harder or grinding finer.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Hmmm, OK but wouldn't all of those things have a knock on effect on my timing? Ie if I grind finer I'd need to tamp lighter to avoid choking the machine?

Does anyone have a link to any articles on shot weight I should peruse?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Sorry I should have said the extraction ratio should be 1.6 as a guide line.

So you multiply the dose by 1.6 which will give you the target extraction weight.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Wombat said:


> Hmmm, OK but wouldn't all of those things have a knock on effect on my timing? Ie if I grind finer I'd need to tamp lighter to avoid choking the machine?
> 
> Does anyone have a link to any articles on shot weight I should peruse?


I'd keep the timing constant say 30 secs and adjust one of the other parameters.

I'd probably go with Upping the dose to 16g and seeing what the shot weighs.

I started out trying to do the shots by 2oz volume, but weight is a far better guide for getting dialled in IMHO.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

OK I've done a little bit of swatting up on extraction ratios but I still don't understand (and I apologise if this is day 1/ week 1) why my shots are coming out so heavy.

Am I right in thinking that the ultimate goal is to have a (roughly) 2oz shot that pulls for 30 seconds and weighs 22.5g? Or am I discarding volume entirely now in favour of weight?

[Edit] ok I just weighed 2oz of water and it was 55g. There is clearly an idea here that I'm not grasping

[Edit Edit] Aaaah, because crema counts toward the volume of coffee what I should really be looking for is a 22.5g shot that has sufficient crema to be touching 2oz despite only having 22.5g of liquid. Am I getting warmer?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Yes you are getting warmer, hang in there.

Forget volume completely. Some beans produce more crema than others and the crema is lighter in weight compared to the shot. This is why volume is a better guide over volume. It should get you into the right ball park. Ultimately be guided by taste though.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Yup, just pulled a shot with a much finer grind and stopped at 22g.

The taste is nice (though I think I'll have to updose and grind a little coarser) but then I drink lattes so the milk takes up a lot of the slack!

But it only produced an oz of espresso. I'm struggling to see where the standards I'm seeing of 14g = 2oz and the brewing ratio 14g = 22.5g reconcile. Even updosing to 16g I note that 24g of water alone is barely an oz.

Surely there is no bean on this earth that can have an entire oz of crema?

[Edit] ok so I should have mentioned that maths is not my strong suit. A 16g shot coming out at 32g definitely starts to jive more with the cafe standards I'm seeing on Google, and I know they typically have slightly bigger baskets (ie 16g - 18g).

As a side bar, thanks for your patience in schooling me in these concepts - I had no idea there was so much more to learn! I hope this thread will stand as a beacon for my fellow coffee newbies


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Yep the 2oz thing did my head in too.

My shots tend to be around the 1.3- 1.5oz volume mark on average.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Yup, as the above edit!

Thanks again, I'll post more results when I have them


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

For anyone reading this who struggled to grasp the idea of weight over volume:

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/shekk/extractionratios-2.png


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Just thought I'd post an update.

My coffee has since really turned a corner and, now my grinder settings have settled down, I'm getting spritz-less pours that are tasting really nice.

I've no doubt that there's still room for improvement but I'm at a rare point where my shots are as they should be and I'm perfecting my latte art so I'm going to relax for a while and just enjoy the fruits of my labours before embarking on my next coffee obsession.

Thanks again for your help, it's truly appreciated and I hope at some point I can repay the debt by helping a fellow newbie


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Glad to hear you're getting there. It is a massive difference between an ok shot and one that's dialled in properly. It was a bit of a revelation to me. if you ever try an espresso shot at charbucks or it makes you realise how bad it really can be.

I'm still learning and every few weeks find my self trying something different in my technique (not always for the better).


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Eventually you will get to the point where pretty much all your shots are drinkable, unless you buy a particularly unforgiving bean, and even if not drinkable as espresso milk hides a multitude of sins. I'm now at the point where I think my road with the Gaggia Classic is at an end as I don't consider the money spent on a PID would be worthwhile and I need to upgrade to continue on my journey, having the Sage DB on the bench hasn't help with this, I guess I have enabled myself lol.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Yeah I imagine I might some day get to a point where I want something with temperature and pressure control, but for now I'm more than happy to keep playing.

I see a VST basket and another run at nutating in my future...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Wombat said:


> Yeah I imagine I might some day get to a point where I want something with temperature and pressure control, but for now I'm more than happy to keep playing.
> 
> I see a VST basket and another run at nutating in my future...


That way lies even more monkeys for your back, what sort of tamper do you have at the moment as for a VST you need one that is 58.35mm or more, as has been stated elsewhere the 20g VST basket is also worth a look. Also a Convex tamper is the one you want for nutating really, some would suggest the Trapzeoid convex by Torr is the best bet for this, my Torr 58.4mm convex seems to get the job done for me.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Yeah I'm gonna need a new tamper at some point - it was the first thing I bought before I truly appreciated its importance and, despite claims that its 58mm, there's a good mil gap between it and my basket.

Do all agree that nutating and convex tampers are the way to go? A lot of articles I read say keep it simple with a single tamp with a flat tamper, but at the same time I suspect that's easy to say when you aren't trying to squeeze every bit of performance out of a little Gaggia Classic


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'd say that whatever works for you is the way to go, but there now seems quite a number of us on this forum having a lot of success with nutating across a wide variety of grinders and machines so the evidence so far is yes it's the way to go.


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## Wombat (Nov 12, 2013)

Holy cow, torr tampers are €70 from Denmark?? Are they really worth the difference between your typical £30 tamper in the UK


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Coffeechap can get a bit of a deal on them, PM him if you want one.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Can vouch for them, they are a great tamper. I think he had a selection of different handles too.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Yes I do........


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