# On the verge of purchasing my first espresso machine...



## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Hi everyone,

Newbie post here. I have done 2 weeks of reading so this is not a post I have just created without doing some pre-reading first.

Anyway, my partner bought me a burr grinder for my xmas which is a fantastic present. I like coffee. I mean I really like coffee! I just drink Espresso or Americano depending what mood I'm in. I (we) have 2 Dolce Gusto machines, but I use a Bialetti Moka to make my Espresso. The coffee from the aforementioned Dolce Gusto was nice when I first started drinking coffee, but then my mum bought me a Bialetti for my birthday and the Espresso that produced was far more impressive, thicker, fresher and tastier!

But after I got the grinder for xmas, my partner suggested I purchase a semi-auto coffee machine to get more out of it. We actually have a good choice of coffee producers/roasters being situated between Dundee and Edinburgh, as well as having a wee shop to by fresh beans from in St. Andrews. She seen a De'Longhi ECOV310BG in Argos but I'm not one to jump in without doing research first...

That's how I came up with a choice of two machines: Gaggia Classic or Rancilio Silvia. I would have gone for the Rancilio but I have around a £200 budget so that ruled that out. (We aren't poor, but we are saving for our first house!). So I spotted a GC on the Gaggia website refurbished for £159 but it is never in stock (been keeping an eye for 2 weeks now) plus you only get a years warranty with it. But on the Phillips website a new GC costs £265 - 10% for first purchase so I think I can pursued her that it's a very good price that i probably won't beat.

Sorry I'm rambling on but there is a point to this post. This is a big(ish) decision for us that I have researched extensively. What frustrates me is the amount of varying model numbers for the same model of machine:


RI8161/40 (Phillips website)

RI9303/01 (Gaggia website)

RI9303/11 (Amazon)

'Gaggia Classic 2' (www.coffeeitalia.co.uk)


Common sense would suggest to me that the RI9303/11 must be latest version but that is not the version on the Phillips website where I think I will be purchasing from. I feel safer buying from them because they have taken over as UK supplier/maintenance I read on this forum during my research, and they are reputable well known company.

A few last concerns/questions I'm hoping you can quash before I commit to buying is that from doing the background reading I am still going to have to purchase a:


non-pressurised basket (since RI8161/40 only comes with single/double shot pressurised baskets). Do I need to go genuine? (because I have found a triple at www.happydonkey.co.uk/gaggiatriplebasket.html)

if 9-bar is the optimal Espresso making pressure, why is the latest model of Classic focused on pod users that need the higher pressure?! That makes very little sense IMO. I am not one who would tinker under the bonnet of a machine that is in warranty, thus invalidating it. Is the difference in taste between the two pressures severe/noticeable? Or does a novice like myself not have to worry about that, someone who rather enjoys a 5-shot Starbucks Americano (oh the shame)

I have fallen in love with the image of the golden Espresso flowing from a bottomless ("naked") portafilter and because I will be new to creating Espresso this way, I think it would be a good learning curve to see if I'm doing it right. So could kill 2 birds with one stone by purchasing this as it comes with triple basket: www.happydonkey.co.uk/gaggia-domestic-portafilter/


Anyway once I commit and buy the Classic, I will update you on how I get on with some photo evidence and hopefully this will help some other first time buyers as well that read this as it is very confusing for a first time buyer.

Thanks for reading this and even replying if you have time left after reading,

Liam


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Welcome to the forum, Liam - you've certianly done your homework. Lowering the bar pressure to 9 bar will produce better espresso when using standard baskets. It's easy to do - there's a manometer doing the rounds on the forum you could borrow to do the job. Ditching the pressurised baskets is a good idea. Naked PF is good idea too. Will give you lots of feedback regarding evenness of extraction.


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Thanks TSK









I think I would definately be put in the dog house if I invalidated the warranty. But then again, surely Phillips expect a level of end-user maintanance on the machines we buy.

Liam


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## qpop (Jan 4, 2015)

This is tangential to your question and slightly off-topic, but it may be worth picking up an Aeropress (£20-£25) for your Americano habit (in addition or prior to buying the espresso machine) - I find the quality and variety of outcomes for "in a mug" coffee from the Aeropress to be at least on par with the vast majority of espresso-based Americanos from coffee shops (and certainly superior to the bean-to-cup stuff at your local Seattle-based-global-chain-coffee-shop).


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Do you have a specific reason for wanting a new one other than the warranty? The Gaggia's are actually pretty basic machines internally and very easy to access and replace any parts which fail (which are cheap and readily available on ebay). I got a 10year old classic from ebay for £105 that had been refurbished and serviced, and it's clean and smooth as can be. Still looks great, works great, ultra reliable. I've since added a PID to it and a Silvia wand, all without the fear of invalidating warranties.

I'd honestly consider banishing yourself from the fear of warranties etc. and just get a good second hand one from the forum here, and pocket the saving for upgrades/spares/contingency for repairs etc. If you buy a new one and feel you aren't able to do any tweaks such as OPV/Steam Wand/PID to it because of warranty issues you're just buying something that costs twice the amount and hinders you from achieving better coffee.

I also think the bottomless portafilter might be running before you can walk. If you get an older second hand machine with a standard old basket and get used to that first, you can always then upgrade baskets/portafilters once you've got to grips with the machine.

Just my 2 pence's worth.

Btw - the PID mod is soooooo goood/important to the classic, and locking yourself into a warranted machine that you don't feel comfortable adding a PID to is going to limit your options for coffee improvements further down the line.


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Hi NJD1977,

Thanks for reply. I will try and answer your questions:

Wanting new machine - No not at all. That's why I was happy to buy a refurb from the Gaggia website. I checked eBay again last night and they were all above £350 (granted they were new). But if I can get a new one for £230 from Phillips it seems a bit of a 'find' to me and surely worth that? I would also consider a used one from this forum so i will go and have a look!

OK I might wait before I buy the bottomless filter yet until I've made a good few Espressos first.

I have slowly been learning the coffee abbreviations but have to admit I'm not sure what 'PID' stands for? Has it something to do with the steam wand thing? I'm not really latte drinker but I assume my GF would want to test that out to compare against her Dolce Gusto lattes.

Thanks,

Liam


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

qpop said:


> This is tangential to your question and slightly off-topic, but it may be worth picking up an Aeropress (£20-£25) for your Americano habit (in addition or prior to buying the espresso machine) - I find the quality and variety of outcomes for "in a mug" coffee from the Aeropress to be at least on par with the vast majority of espresso-based Americanos from coffee shops (and certainly superior to the bean-to-cup stuff at your local Seattle-based-global-chain-coffee-shop).


Hi Qdop,

Cheers for the advice. My and a colleague at work (we are teachers) have a wee 'coffee club' that only seems to happen when kids are off on study leave. We use an Aeropress, caffetiere or I have now added my Impress Coffee Brewer mug to the equation. All make much better coffee than the vendi-machine stuff and good enough to keep us going at work.

The Gaggia purchase is just to compliment my grinder I got. If there was a cheaper equavelent that would make just as good espresso as a Gaggia Classic then I would buy that. I'm most definately not a brand snob







But still expect good value for money and the GC gets very good write-ups from many different websites/forums.

Thanks,

Liam


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

Liam, a second hand Classic from the forum is a good way to go, you really can't go wrong - and Mark from gaggiamanualservice.com regularly offers them - all lovingly prepared. Have a hunt through the For sale thread to get an idea of what's around what he offers and you can always PM him direct. One of his latest offerings, as an example is here

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?20925-White-gaggia-classic-one-off-special


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Liam_Smart said:


> Hi NJD1977,
> 
> Thanks for reply. I will try and answer your questions:
> 
> ...


I wouldn't go off the ebay prices for new ones as being the accurate going rate for Gaggia Classics. From what I can see the going rate is between £230-270 depending on sales / discounts etc. and has been for quite some time. Likewise the going rate for a decent second hand machine in good condition tends to fall around £95-140. If it has been professionally refurbished and new seals etc. then it might be more like £150. So I don't particularly think the £230 option from Phillips is a "steal" as such - it's just the market rate for a new Gaggia Classic.

PID stands for Proportional Integral Derivative and is a type of electronic controller used for controlling variable functions.......such as temperature. It is commonly used in a lot of machines which require precise temperature control such as beer brewing / slow cookers / kilns and of course Espresso machines. The Gaggia classic uses standard old fashioned electronic thermostats for the brew and steam functions which are wildly inaccurate compared to a PID, meaning the optimal brew temperature of 93-94degC can be almost impossible to control/know without a PID. This can mean the shots are being pulled with water which is too hot and burns the coffee, or too cool (more common I think) and under-extracts the coffee. I recently installed a DIY PID controller to my Gaggia Classic with the help of this forum, and the improvements are beyond belief to be quite honest. I suspect my old gaggia thermostat was just never really achieving the correct brew temperatures, but with the new PID controller and temperature sensor I can control the brew temperature very tightly and the resulting difference in the quality of coffee is huge. See here for more info on the DIY option http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?19674-DIY-PID-Steam-and-Brew and Auber do more professional style kits on Ebay for around £120. Either way, if you started to install a PID on a new warranted machine, the warranty would definitely be out of the window.


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## Kman10 (Sep 3, 2014)

I wouldn't worry about warranty on new machine as if looked after then will be out of warranty before any issues plus you can put back the steam wand and opv if anything did fail


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Tis the season to keep an eye out on Amazon Warehouse for box returns...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B0000C72XS/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=B0000C72XS&linkCode=as2&tag=cfukweb-21&linkId=6G6IQKK2MPC3A7OK


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## MrWhiteGlasses (Jan 8, 2015)

Don't want to de-rail this thread, I just have bought Classic and all this information available ... wow, it seems I must do PID, buy naked PF, get grinder ( Mahlkonig Vario vs Eureka Minion vs MC2 ), tamper, steaming wand etc. Looks like at least of £500 worth of upgrades needs to be done before I reach e-net standards.

But guess my £90 second hand Classic was a fluke purchase.

Will see how it all goes.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

MrWhiteGlasses said:


> Don't want to de-rail this thread, I just have bought Classic and all this information available ... wow, it seems I must do PID, buy naked PF, get grinder ( Mahlkonig Vario vs Eureka Minion vs MC2 ), tamper, steaming wand etc. Looks like at least of £500 worth of upgrades needs to be done before I reach e-net standards.
> 
> But guess my £90 second hand Classic was a fluke purchase.
> 
> Will see how it all goes.


Congrats on the 90 quid classic. Out of what you say you need, forget the PID for now. It's not essential. It makes life easier but learn a good temp surfing routine and it's not needed. The naked PF is a good idea to pick up, great learning tool but not essential to begin with. The biggest thing you need is a grinder!


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## MrWhiteGlasses (Jan 8, 2015)

Since I've saved plenty what grinder should I go for. At the moment I'm thinking about Mahlkonig Vario but read so many reviews about Eureka etc, not sure which one to go. As better to buy something decent which don't have to upgrade in 2 months.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

MrWhiteGlasses said:


> Since I've saved plenty what grinder should I go for. At the moment I'm thinking about Mahlkonig Vario but read so many reviews about Eureka etc, not sure which one to go. As better to buy something decent which don't have to upgrade in 2 months.


There's more experienced on here that will answer this question. I've never tried any of these grinders. Are you going to be using it for brewed coffee as well or just espresso? You can also make your money go further by getting a decent second hand grinder. You'll soon realise that many here have second hand commercial grinders at home. I've ended up with an hg one at home with my classic. Still need to upgrade the machine someday. I'm not rushing. There's a thread about grinders and what you get for your money.

Here's the link http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=17071


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## lukej (Nov 29, 2014)

http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hd0904-gaggia-classic-bottomless-portafilter.html



MrWhiteGlasses said:


> Don't want to de-rail this thread, I just have bought Classic and all this information available ... wow, it seems I must do PID, buy naked PF, get grinder ( Mahlkonig Vario vs Eureka Minion vs MC2 ), tamper, steaming wand etc. Looks like at least of £500 worth of upgrades needs to be done before I reach e-net standards.
> 
> But guess my £90 second hand Classic was a fluke purchase.
> 
> Will see how it all goes.


Don't get us wrong, the classic is a good domestic machine, but it's just that. A lot of Classic owners on here have or will want a bit more performance from it over time, that's just the nature of the people on this forum. If that becomes the case for you, there's some targeted upgrades to be made, but by no means is this going to cost you £500 purely to improve the Classic, you could easily spend that just on a grinder alone if you wished.

Realistically, working out what to do next for you is based entirely on your budget. The easiest way to relate what I can say to another industry is a bit like car modifications, you can do it in stages.

*Grinder*

*
*Start small if you have to, pick what fits your budget. As ever, there are options for all wallets, and to a point higher investment will mean better drinks, but this is only to a point. A Porlex or Hausgrind will get you fine enough for espresso, or you could go electric. Do you brew in ways other than espresso or not? Personally, I'd look at the Baratza range if you do, but rather than the Mahlonig Vario you mentioned, the Virtuoso is available on ebay for £150 so certainly not astronomically expensive and it'll do a good job for you. I'm currently using a Solis grinder that I modified, and it does the job for £60.

Grinders are just standard brewing kit to most of us, and whilst they factor into first time purchases, they aren't a cost of getting the machine working right, perhaps more about getting you in the right place to make good espresso. Obviously, a grinder is a separate bit of kit from an espresso machine, and this may well work in your favour as it's an easily resold piece of kit down the line.

I've not called this a stage because it's not a machine upgrade, but if you're grinding at hoe you need one. Simple.

*
Cost: £35-400*

*
Stage 1: Tamper & Steam Wand*

On the steam wand side of things, a Rancilio Silvia V1/2 wand is £9.95 on eBay here: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rancilio-Silvia-V1-V2-Steam-Wand-Gaggia-Classic-Steam-Tube-Conversion-Kit-/271383061059?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item3f2fb0e243, and honestly, they're a really easy swap. Do this, never look back.

Tampers are a minefield to explore in most cases, and I'm hesitant to call this an upgrade, but as you get a tamper in the box (albeit a shiity plastic one) I will factor it in. With tampers there are base and handle variations galore, but if you just look at standard ones, a 58mm tamper will do and can be picked up for £35-50. If you want to go a step further you can buy one that's machined precisely to tenths or even hundreths of a millimeter, should this be the case a 58.3 or 58.35 will be the sizes most reccommended for a Classic, those can run from £60-150 if you want to spend all that on one, it's not really necessary to stretch to that top end though, even Reg Barbers can be had for £70ish.

*Stage 1 Cost: £45-160*

*Total Upgrade Costs: £45-160*

*Stage 2: OPV Adjustment, Baskets and Portafilters*

This now depends on you and if you're now grinding your own or not. If yours is one of the newer machines, I'd absolutey reccommend you doing the OPV mod and getting non-pressurised baskets, they go hand in hand so there's little sense only doing one of them, but if you're using supremarket preground than you can survive for a while before you'll want to do these.

Getting the OPV adjusted isn't hard, there's a manometer portafilter doing the rounds here: http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?20800-Gaggia-Classic-OPV-Guage-including-portafilter-handle/page3. It'll set you back around £10 to borrow (£5 forum donation plus postal charges), and the baskets will cost you up to £20 each for top spec items if you want them, often however, they come with bottomless portafilter a too so you might make some savings here, it's your shout.

Speaking of, the bottomless portafilter is also not a necessity, they can be had cheap enough at £26.99 with a double or triple basket through HappyDonkey. Those are here: http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/gaggia-bottomless-portafilter.html, and here: http://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hd0904-gaggia-classic-bottomless-portafilter.html. Don't treat one of these as a must have though, but they're really useful in helping understand that your shots can and will improve because you'll easier see how they're pouring and if there's any areas of your technique that need improving.

*Stage 2 Cost: £35-60*

*Total Upgrade Costs: £80-220*

*Stage 3: Shower Screen*

This is by no means necessary, and we're in the realm of marginal gains here, but they will make some difference to the consistency of pour and extration. Standard ones are

*Stage 3 Cost: £5-20*

*Total Upgrade Costs: £85-240*



*
**Stage 4: PID, elecronic wizardry and more*

Again, not strictly necessary, and as others have said you can get pretty close to the same efect without one by temperature surfing. I guess, as with the shower screen we're back in the realm of marginal gains compared to someone who temperature surfs, and similarly it will therefore make a difference to the consistency of pour and extration. Home build or kit buy it's up to you, this is the single most expensive upgrade you'll make to the machine and it'll set you back around the £100-150 mark for a kit. Home build is much cheaper, but eitherway a common and worthwhile modification if you want to put that kind of investment into your Classic.

*Stage 4 Cost: ~£40-150*

*Total Upgrade Costs: £125-390*



*
*Hope this helps you see that it's not all or nothing, and you can take this as far as you want or need with the damage to your pocket entirely your decision.

Cheers

Luke


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Great post Luke.









One thing I do slightly disagree with though is the PID mod being a marginal gain. For me it is a night and day change to the shots I get from my Classic......however there is a strong possibility that is because:

a) I never bothered to really learn much about temperature surfing or took any temperature measurements from my shots.

b) My original old thermostats were 10years old so could well have been knocking off at too low a temperature to give great shots.

Either way, I can't emphasise enough how much of a difference the DIY PID has made to the taste and consistency of my shots.


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Just a wee update,

I listened to all your suggestions and bought a 2010 used/refurb one from this forum









- all seals replaced

- new large solenoid

- new rancillo wand

- OPV mod done

This is more than enough to keep me going for long time!

£160 so spent a further £25 on a bottomless PF and a triple shot basket delivered for £24.99. So came out £15 under my £200 budget! Think that money will eventually go towards buying a decent tamper. I got an email alert saying that the bottomless PF had dropped £5 from eBay so just bought it and it has already been dispatched. Was going to purchase the triple-shot basket seperately anyway so was just as well buying both together.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bottomless-Naked-Portafilter-Handle-Gaggia-Classic-Coffee-Machine-Commercial-/160932369572?pt=UK_Homes_Garden_Kitchen_Kettles&hash=item25785114a4

Hopefully one day I will be producing shots like this after a lot of practicing

















Thanks,

Liam


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

NJD1977 said:


> Great post Luke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What does 'temperature surfing' mean?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> Great post Luke.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think anyone said the PID is only a marginal gain. It is a great improvement but I was a bit lazy with temperature surfing and I could get equally good tasting shots when I could be bothered before getting it. I wanted to stress that it's not essential to begin with. A lot upgrade machine rather than adding a pid.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Great choice with the refurb one Liam. Looks like a good deal.

Temperature surfing is timing the pull of the shot to try to maximise the chances of the water hitting the puck being 93-94degC. As the classic boiler varies quite a lot in temperature as the thermostat kicks in and out, the red-light brew-ready light is unfortunately not a good indicator of whether the temperature of the water will be optimal. There are plenty of threads on this with graphs for temperature fluctuation. Some people flick the steam switch for a few seconds prior to brewing to artificially increase the temperature slightly above the brew thermostat level (if say the thermostat is delivering slightly cool water at it's peak), or if the brew thermostat is delivering slightly hot water at it's peak, some people leave a time of x seconds from when the red light comes on before they hit the brew switch. All seems like a lot of guess work and faff to me, I don't have the time in the morning before work for waiting before I pull my shot, I need to hit the brew-switch and be sure of what I'm getting, which the PID does admirably.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Liam_Smart said:


> What does 'temperature surfing' mean?


All coffee machines have a heating cycle. In the case of a classic it's a small boiler controlled by a thermostat. Temp drops and the element kicks on, gets too high and it turns off. There's quite a bit of dead space between the on and off. To get the temperature of your shot where you want it you want to time when to start your shot in the heating cycle. I haven't done it recently as I have a pID but someone will talk through their technique or you'll find other posts on it. Important for milk steaming as well as it can keep the steam coming longer.


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## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

Neill said:


> I don't think anyone said the PID is only a marginal gain.........


I read it that Luke was suggesting the PID was a marginal gain in the same way as the shower screen.



lukej said:


> *Stage 4: PID, elecronic wizardry and more*
> 
> Again, not striclty necessary, and as others have said you can get pretty close to the same efect without one. *As with the shower screen we're back in the realm of marginal gains*, and similarly it will make some difference to the consistency of pour and extration.


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

NJD1977 said:


> I read it that Luke was suggesting the PID was a marginal gain in the same way as the shower screen.


Weird. That bit was missing on my Tapatalk view. Sorry.


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## lukej (Nov 29, 2014)

To clarify, (several edits later as I bounced between posts) I was using the phrase marginal gains as a relative term, and I cut and paste a bit from the shower screen section out of laziness/speed (I wrote my OP at work :s).

Perhaps it's time for another comparison, so let's think of it in a kind of Sky Procycling kind of a way, mostly because I love cycling, but actually because that's how my mind works. Team Sky invests heavily in gains that are minor in the field of great cycling (for us read great coffee) but if we then compared it to home espresso/good coffee they're these gains are significant. You start with a machine being a good domestic item and move it's capability perhaps towards (and I hate this word) the prosumer level.

If you learnt to temperature surf, you could achieve a similar result, but if you wanted it to be easier to do this and gain more consistent results, then you have to make a significantly expensive change relative to the machine cost to achieve it. Of course this factor changes with a home built PID, and when the time comes such a device will emerge on my Classic, but that was kind of where I was going. I'll edit the original to reference this.

Cheers

Luke


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## MrWhiteGlasses (Jan 8, 2015)

Wow, thank you for replies. Guess need to start new thread on what grinder to buy. As that's first step into coffee world.


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

MrWhiteGlasses said:


> Wow, thank you for replies. Guess need to start new thread on what grinder to buy. As that's first step into coffee world.


What were you making your coffee with before you bought your GC?

How does it compare?

What coffee are you are using just now in the GC? How finely is it ground?

I can't wait to test it out. I assumed that It would require the finest grinding setting but Mark suggested I keep it at a medium grinding setting because of the OPV adjustment won't have as much pressure. I'm going to have to keep a taste log so I can compare!

This a whole new world I've entered into in the past few weeks that I didn't know existed...


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## lukej (Nov 29, 2014)

MrWhiteGlasses said:


> Wow, thank you for replies. Guess need to start new thread on what grinder to buy. As that's first step into coffee world.


Probably don't need to start a new thread on that fella, there's plenty of those covering the subject already, including a really useful guide that was linked earlier









Luke


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

lukej said:


> Probably don't need to start a new thread on that fella, there's plenty of those covering the subject already, including a really useful guide that was linked earlier
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Concur with this to an extent, but after you have done your research as to the best grinders in your budget don't be afraid to ask something specific to your needs.

To get you going here a short short list:

Iberital MC2 - Good at entry level but currently being usurped somewhat by the

Graef CM80/CM95 the 80 can be had for the same kinda money as the MC2, and the 95 adds electronic dosing.

Eurkeka Mignon - If you can afford this is one, if not the, best grinder on the lower end of the market, and fantastic for home use.

Mazzer SJ - S/H the same kinda money as the Mignon new, and better in the cup.

Other S/H commercials on ebay - they often go for a good price, but can be risky if heavily used in the past. But grinders as capable as the Mazzer SJ (recent Fiorenzato F5 examples spring to mind) can be had for less than £150.


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## MrWhiteGlasses (Jan 8, 2015)

Thanks for quick overview on grinders, mignon looks like the machine to go as Mazzer SL is quite big. My wife would go mental if she saw the size of it.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you use it without the hopper it's really not that big.


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Just to wrap up this thread and say thanks to all helped me get my Clasic. It is much more difficult than I had ever imagined. I've had mini accurate scales and bathroom scales out lol! I managed to pour 1 (out of 4) drinkable shots of espresso so far and taking a break:time-out:. It's difficult without a proper tamper though and I've been waiting a week on my MadeByKnock tamper:bad:.

Tried all 3 baskets with similar results. Used blind portafilter which told me there was spraying/channeling. Anyway I will seek help in the other forum areas after I've 'played' over the weekend.

Here's a pic of my first 4 shots (the last being the drinkable one - the crema is still up the sides of the cup even though it was drunk hours ago - bit like a well poured pint of Guinness):









(Too coarse - too fine - slightly better but still too fine - drinkabable but not any better tasting than my Bialetti)

Thanks again for everyones help. I hope to become an active forum member (once I can pour a palletable espresso

Liam


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Is that a single basket your using ( looking at the photo ? )


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Mrboots2u,

I've used the single basket, double basket, triple basket and the missus' picnic basket. It's tough! But I will keep going. Everyone has to learn. Avoiding temptation to ditch the NPF and use the spouted one!

I better go clean up the mess before she gets home...

Liam


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Liam_Smart said:


> Mrboots2u,
> 
> I've used the single basket, double basket, triple basket and the missus' picnic basket. It's tough! But I will keep going. Everyone has to learn. Avoiding temptation to ditch the NPF and use the spouted one!
> 
> ...


Stick to one basket - the double - make your life a lot easier ...

Have fun and get cleaning


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Cheers mate









All cleaned up! You know what though, I let my other half smell the 4 espressos when she came in and she easily identified the one that was drinkable (I had left a wee bit in the bottom of the cup). It smelled sweet and nutty whereas the others reminded me of the slippers she has been nagging me to throw out.

I call that progress!


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Liam_Smart said:


> Hi everyone,
> 
> Sorry I'm rambling on but there is a point to this post. This is a big(ish) decision for us that I have researched extensively. What frustrates me is the amount of varying model numbers for the same model of machine:
> 
> ...


I have read the thread through but unless I've missed something, no one answered your question on model numbers?

I'm keen to know this point too as i'm on the verge of buying a Gaggia Classic RI9403/11 which appears to be the latest 2015 version, this I can acquire for £238.99 Includes VAT & DELIVERY** ALL STOCK IS BRAND NEW & BOXED. best price

This will be my third coffee machine i've had, the first was a Krupps (unsure of model) the second was a Francis Francis X1 which has recently gone wrong after 8 years service.

I will be buying new and not doing any mods,,,,,, for now


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> I have read the thread through but unless I've missed something, no one answered your question on model numbers?
> 
> I'm keen to know this point too as i'm on the verge of buying a Gaggia Classic RI9403/11 which appears to be the latest 2015 version, this I can acquire for £238.99 Includes VAT & DELIVERY** ALL STOCK IS BRAND NEW & BOXED. best price
> 
> ...


Grinder?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

I have a Krups F20342 grinder, but I have been using Lavazza espresso and Lavazza quality rossa for a long while now and have tried many other pre ground coffees but these are the ones we like the best and get the best result from.

I do believe I shall start grinding my own beans again after all I have read on this site so far.


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Hi Jumbo Ratty,

I ended up buying a refurb from Mark (GaggiaManualService). See previous posts. Best decision I made because he did the OPV mod and fitted Rancillo wand. £160 to my door. That left me some spare cash to buy a few accesories like naked portafilter and triple shot basket.

From might (quite substantial) research, all the model numbers are the same machine. They may just include newer (not necessarily better) parts inside. Infact from advice on this forum, the older the machine the better it was made. (Someone will correct me if I'm talking pish). The variation in model numbers certainly confused me. The RI8161/40 comes with presurised baskets (hated on here but I bet they make life easier). I wonder if the variation in model numbers represents changes in the accesories i.e. no-pressurised baskets?

Where is that price of £238.99 from?

Liam


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Liam_Smart said:


> presurised baskets - hated on here but I bet they make life easier


If you're using crap coffee


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

This is the site I found the best price and propose to get the Gaggia Classic from

I have looked into getting a fully modded second hand one but have decided on new

http://www.cheapelectricals.co.uk/index.php?app=ecom&ns=prodshow&ref=gaggia-classic-ri9403-11-coffee-maker&sid=o6t69a13ovv736l6r82ai98j0fwn54u9

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaggia-Classic-with-PID-Silvia-steam-wand-and-OPV-mod-/221658401257?pt=UK_Homes_Garden_Kitchen_Kettles&hash=item339bdec9e9


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

I have the 2010 model. Few differences I think, but then again there are many more knowledgeable people than me on here that can be more precise:



New S/S boiler 1900W (this is a higher power rating i think. Are the other models 1300w?) 



New Gaggia Milano logo (different logo from older ones).


New frontal user interface (these buttons look like push buttons instead of the toggle ones I have)


AUTO OFF -Mode (Don't think I have this! But I've read that some people leave their machine on for a while to properly heat up before making coffee. If it switches off after 9-mins this wont be possible. But then it will heat up quicker IF it indeed draw more eletric power).


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaggia-Classic-with-PID-Silvia-steam-wand-and-OPV-mod-/221658401257?pt=UK_Homes_Garden_Kitchen_Kettles&hash=item339bdec9e9


To me, this is the better option. I would pressume the bidding will continue on this item.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Auto off after 9 minutes is just a new intrusive piece of "Eurocracy" which takes no regard of what the equipment is our whether it's desirable to switch it off. It's designed for people who leave their 60" telly on 24/7 but takes no account of people who own stuff like espresso machines or audiophile valve amps which require substantial warm up time. Even the Classic needs 20 mins to warm up so I think buying a refurbished pre-modded one from Mark is the better choice.

Pressurised baskets only make things 'easier' if you're using pre-ground coffee and have no control over the grind level. You pretty much have to use a pressurised basket with supermarket coffee. Once you have a grinder you really need a non-pressurised basket so you can tell when the grind level is right (double in 25-30").

I'd say don't over-analyse: get your kit together, get your fresh beans, stick to one basket, and one bean until you've got consistency nailed. I found my classic made great shots some of the time, but usually when I wasn't faffing around too much. I just made sure the machine and Pf were good and warm, ground straight into the basket, a little tap on the bench to level it and a medium-firm tamp and twist, lock in and 30" later, most often a decent espresso was had. Most of my problems came from varying tamp, grind, coffee type/dose and messing about with the grinds in the basket too much before pulling. Less is more I came to the conclusion. (Not everyone will agree though).

Anyway welcome to the forum and enjoy your coffee!


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## BIG ROB (Dec 21, 2014)

Liam_Smart said:


> I have the 2010 model. Few differences I think, but then again there are many more knowledgeable people than me on here that can be more precise:
> 
> 
> 
> New S/S boiler 1900W (this is a higher power rating i think. Are the other models 1300w?)


Strange that further down the specs state "Power 1300 W".

Not sure which one is correct.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

1900 watts probably a misprint.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Hhmmm,, now after downloading a PDF i'm also in doubt as to the 1900 / 1300 watt.

They seem to state clearly the new 1900watt enhanced power rating though, so this is something i will have to look further at


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

Liam_Smart said:


> To me, this is the better option. I would pressume the bidding will continue on this item.


It went for £250.99


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Yeah I checked that myself this morning. Collection only which would have put a lot of people off otherwise i think it may have went for more money.

You decided what are going to do? Are you buying the new model?


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

I will almost certainly be buying the new model, I just need to satisfy myself I'm getting the best machine for me.

I actually like procrastinating over the options and researching things prior to committing. I can become quite a bore to those around me. Recent purchases have been mountain bike,,, AV amp,, speakers. All of which I spent AGES deciding on. My partner "gave up" over the speakers in the end

Now after watching the James Bond film Live and let die yesterday I have to research this, A little pricey, but have to look into it before I can commit. http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=M-P


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

BIG ROB said:


> Strange that further down the specs state "Power  1300 W".
> 
> Not sure which one is correct.


I can confirm that after speaking to someone at gaggia.uk.com it is not 1900 or even 1300 watts. It is now 1050 watts, and instead of both the elements being built into the sides of the boiler and never coming into direct contact with the water the new version has only one element and that is exposed !

The boiler is now stainless steel instead of aluminium on the previous models though.

Back to the drawing board for me as I dont see this as an improvemnet on the previous model


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Stainless steel boiler is a plus.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

James Bond, licence to make coffee withdrawn! I saw that film and thought "what's he doing? " when he was showing off his barista skills. "Do you expect me to talk?" "No Mr Bond I expect you to die, shortly after you drink that coffee! "


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

FINALLY my new tamper arrived! Black ceramic steel with black oak handle.

Fits the Gaggia double basket easily. Has me asking myself, how would I know if I have been sent a 58.35mm or a 58mm? Hmmm...

Exactly how tight should the 58.35mm be?

Thanks,

Liam


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## Alison (Jan 21, 2015)

Liam_Smart said:


> FINALLY my new tamper arrived! Black ceramic steel with black oak handle.
> 
> Fits the Gaggia double basket easily. Has me asking myself, how would I know if I have been sent a 58.35mm or a 58mm? Hmmm...
> 
> ...


Looks really nice, I have a 58mm tamper and theres still a bit of wiggle room when placed in the classic double basket. If that's any help.


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

Thanks Alison! Thought some pictures to show it's size would be better than me trying to describe it:









Liam


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you underscrew the handle is there anything on the base with the size?


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

No there are no markings at all on either parts of the tamper.


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## Alison (Jan 21, 2015)

I think that's a little larger in diameter than my tamper. You'd be best trying some calipers or maybe a tape measure could possibly give you an idea


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## Liam_Smart (Jan 6, 2015)

New tamper, mini scales, bathroom scales, 15g gound beans, double basket and 27 seconds (but still two wee sprays/channeling which is annoying) all came together to produce the nicest espresso I have ever tasted! If I can enjoy more espresso like that it makes the purchase of the GC completely worth it. It tasted nothing like the Bialetti/Dolce Gusto espressos I've bcome so used to! Time to celebrate with another...

















Liam


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