# New Member, looking for some advice from more experienced members



## garry1981 (Nov 15, 2021)

Hi all. I enjoy my coffee and have been using a french press and aero press for a while. Thought I would treat myself to a new machine in the black Friday sales.

I would love to get a manual machine but i would never use it, time is of the essence on weekdays and i have decided to go the fully automatic route. I had decided to get the Siemens TQ505GB9 EQ.500 at £550 as it looked to be exactly what i need. Easy maintenance, easy to use, decent coffee and can make Americano, Latte and Cappuccino.

I have been dong a bit of research since and have found many other machines from Delonghi, Melitta, Sage etc that are £270- £500. Will these meet my needs? Will i see the benefit of spending the extra money on the Siemens?

I need a machine that requires little maintenance, can make coffee at the touch of a button and can make Americano, Latte and Cappuccino. Some of the more expensive machines look great but i do not need this. I will drink 2 coffee's a day maximum and the main reason for getting a machine is when time is really pushed during the week i sometimes end up using the wife's instant as i just do not have tome to even use the Aeropress.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I would suggest you read the reviews associated with the indicated model, not what I would call impressive several problems and poor coffee.


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## garry1981 (Nov 15, 2021)

El carajillo said:


> I would suggest you read the reviews associated with the indicated model, not what I would call impressive several problems and poor coffee.


 Thank you for your reply. I have read the reviews for a lot of them and there are some bad points. I think I am going to have to compromise on quality to get the convenience I need though. I cannot justify getting a manual machine that I can only use on a Sunday.

Could you, or indeed anyone else suggest a better fully automatic machine in the £300-£600 range? Above that it is probably not worth it for what I drink. I am hoping that the new machine will lead to me drinking a bit more coffee and experimenting a bit more.

In real terms, if the Siemens gives me 85% perfect coffee all the time then that is much better than the busy mornings that I end up with instant. I was really just wondering if a £300 machine gives me 82% perfect coffee then it may be worth considering.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

garry1981 said:


> Could you, or indeed anyone else suggest a better fully automatic machine in the £300-£600 range?


 Personally, if convenience was first priority, I would get a Nespresso capsule machine and an accompanying milk frother. I think it would be easier to use, easier to maintain, better result, cheaper to buy and smaller footprint. The disadvantage would be the cost of coffee, but hey, you can't win them all.

The reason I wouldn't buy an automatic machine like you linked to, though I have no experience with it, is that it strikes me as jack of all trades, master of none. This grinder can't be good, the machine can't be very good. It won't be clean, the care in preparation won't be there - there is just no way in my mind that this will produce nice coffee. I also doubt that this thing will be build to last. So for me it doesn't look like an attractive option.


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## garry1981 (Nov 15, 2021)

Doram said:


> Personally, if convenience was first priority, I would get a Nespresso capsule machine and an accompanying milk frother. I think it would be easier to use, easier to maintain, better result, cheaper to buy and smaller footprint. The disadvantage would be the cost of coffee, but hey, you can't win them all.
> 
> The reason I wouldn't buy an automatic machine like you linked to, though I have no experience with it, is that it strikes me as jack of all trades, master of none. This grinder can't be good, the machine can't be very good. It won't be clean, the care in preparation won't be there - there is just no way in my mind that this will produce nice coffee. I also doubt that this thing will be build to last. So for me it doesn't look like an attractive option.


 Thanks for your input mate. While not what I was hoping to hear this is exactly the reason I came here, to get advice from people who know far more about this than me.

i actually have one of those pod machines somewhere. I never used it again after the free pods ran out.

i suppose I have till Black Friday to think about it.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

One thing essential with whatever you buy, use good quality water, particularly if you local water is hard. Hard water will scale / kill a machine in a very short time.

Pay particular attention to what the manual says about descaling and its frequency.


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## bbstrikesagain (Aug 15, 2021)

Manual coffee isn't only for Sundays... Two a day here, creeping to an occasional three some days. It doesn't have to take long either, but the learning curve is fairly steep


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

Why don't you phone Miele, their customer support is very helpful.


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## garry1981 (Nov 15, 2021)

Nightrider_1uk said:


> Why don't you phone Miele, their customer support is very helpful.


 And what do you propose I ask them?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@garry1981 Will you be doing a lot of milk frothing and is the temperature and texture of milk important?


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## garry1981 (Nov 15, 2021)

bbstrikesagain said:


> Manual coffee isn't only for Sundays... Two a day here, creeping to an occasional three some days. It doesn't have to take long either, but the learning curve is fairly steep


 The problem is, i will start with great intentions. Get up early, make the coffee, clean up. Then one day I will be late and not clean up. The wife will moan at the mess and the next day i will just make instant.


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## garry1981 (Nov 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @garry1981 Will you be doing a lot of milk frothing and is the temperature and texture of milk important?


 I would say yes on all 3 of these. My go to just now is Americano but i would experiment a lot more if I had a machine. I always get cappuccino from a coffee shop when out and would want a machine capable of a decent Cappuccino.

I am aware that what I am looking for is different to what most people on here are looking for. I would love brilliant coffee every morning but usually end up with Nescafé gold blend. An auto machine that can give me good-very good coffee while I put my jacket on in the morning is a huge step up for me.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@garry1981 If milk is important, no machine with a tube that dips in the milk, sucks it up and sprays cold froth into the cup will work for you. You will need one that has an actual steam wand....

This allows you to immediately discount 80%+ of the bean to cup machines on the market.

below are some links to an in depth review of a BTC machine (more so than I believe you will ever find on the web. The Melitta has some really excellent features, but sadly they discontinued their other models with the same brewing system, but a *proper* milk frothing wand some 2 or 3 years ago. It will give you some handle on what to look for.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/07/29/melitta-caffeo-varianza-csp/

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2016/10/26/melitta-caffeo-varianza-tech-tour-videos/


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## garry1981 (Nov 15, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> @garry1981 If milk is important, no machine with a tube that dips in the milk, sucks it up and sprays cold froth into the cup will work for you. You will need one that has an actual steam wand....
> 
> This allows you to immediately discount 80%+ of the bean to cup machines on the market.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the info. I'll get a look at this after work.


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I have limited knowledge of BTC machines but I can give a little of my experience if it helps. I have other 'proper' coffee machines so my use of BTCs was always occasional.

My first BTC was a Gaggia Syncrony Compact. This was at the cheaper end of the market but it had a removable brew unit (other types have the brew unit buried in the casing which needs to be dismantled for cleaning, consequntly they get very manky with mouldy coffee grounds) and had a pannerello steam wand to steam milk. I used it for a while and quite liked it. It was easy to work on once I worked out how to dismantle it.

I then got a Miele BTC. This felt like a real step up in quality and had better control over parameters. However, it had a steaming system that needed to be dismantled for cleaning after use, which meant that I eventually stopped steaming milk with it. I loaned it out and eventually sold it. The PCB went and I bought it back to fix it but then found out that Miele don't support old machines, don't sell spares and even when available they are eye wateringly expensive. You are supposed to send defective machines to Miele for repair at very expensive rates.

The lesson for me is that BTCs are regarded consumables, to be used and thrown away when faults start to appear. Of course, other brands may be different. So if you buy one, get one with the longest guarantee period and half expect to throw it away if it goes wrong after the guarantee has expired. They still need grinds cleaning out, drip trays emptying and general maintenance so may be not as fuss free as it may first appear.


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

garry1981 said:


> And what do you propose I ask them?


 Sorry, this aasaimed at another thread, don't know why it posted on yours. DOH!!!


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## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I own two full auto machines, a Gaggia Titanium which is over 15 years old, and a two year old Delonghi Magnifica (ESAM 4200s). Both are fairly basic machines with just a steam wand.

Both machines can provide decent coffee during week days, and basic milk drinks with a bit of practice. Getting them to the 'decent' level wasn't as easy as one would assume, but it's possible to get reasonable -although not perfect- results, better than Nespresso according to me. Fancy beans are probably not required either (as these machines aren't as consistent as a good barista and have a limited range of adjustments)

There is no upkeep on a daily basis, but if you want these machines to last, there is some very simple cleaning/rinsing required on a weekly basis (plus the odd descaling if you use tap water).

I would stay clear of one touch milk stuff as these require some careful maintenance and won't give you much control on what gets in the cup. I'd suspect they also add failure points. I would also not spend too much money on a super auto, as the more costly ones add gadgets but won't make better coffee.

All in all, it's a workable solution if you do not expect the same quality as what you can get from a proper semi-auto/manual machine, with a good grinder and suitable water, and want simple maintenance.


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## Tamito (Nov 18, 2021)

Hi there, I was in a similar situation a few years ago and after reading a lot on this forum and realising I don't have the time or skills for a Gaggia Classic or anything else of the sort (I had a newborn and a toddler with issues at home and needed decent coffee quickly and with very little mess). I bought a Gaggia Anima and was super happy with my choice. It has a steam wand which I prefer as I couldn't get over the fact that a lot of other BTC machines pass milk through a small hose&#8230;the cleaning of this thing really bothered me so I went with a steam wand. I used fresh roasted beans with mine and tap water, did not descale when I should have, did not always have time to clean it and it served me faithfully for exactly 4 years. The coffee was great (I do milk based drinks and espresso with a bit of water) and for my purposes and palette, it tasted great. You press a button and you have delicious coffee. Could the coffee have been better with a proper espresso machine? Yes! But in my circumstances the perfect shot from a proper machine was not that important. Convenience and time was so I went with BTC and do not regret it. If I had taken better care of it, it would have lasted longer but here we are. No regrets at all. Have a look at the model and see if it suits you. As for me, my circumstances have changed, I have more time now, kids are a bit older, I'm working from home and I'm looking to spend a lot more money than I care to admit on a real proper espresso machine and grinder. Just do what works for you and don't overthink it. Good luck!


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## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

This answer might not make me very popular, in several ways, but as I've been through somewhat the same process, I think I have a perspective.

To be blunt, while I entirely get what you're after (because so am I) I think we're both seeking rocking horse droppings - it doesn't exist.

The first problem is that getting an acceptable standard of coffee is very subjective. I have no doubt at all that what I find acceptable and what many on here find acceptable will be different but, with the greatest possible respect, the only person drinking my coffee, and using my tastebuds to decide what is acceptable, is me. I can't tell if anybody else would find that acceptable, and nor can they tell me whether I will find what they prefer acceptable.

What I do know for a certainty, based both on known science and personal experience, is that some people have a much better sense of taste than others. I know I'm not one of them. A friend of mine only drinks tea, and hates coffee. He swears he can tell if his tea has been stirred with a spoon that has been dipped, even briefly and then shaken to lose any drops, in coffee. He can. I proved it, experimentally, because I tried it myself and I certainly can't. i didn't believe him, but he can.

Also, while there are some 'good' BTC machines, the sheer nature of moving both dry coffee grounds, and wet/damp brewed 'pucks' about mechanically presents some significant cleanliness/maintenance problems. The quality of the water used does. too. If it's too hard, you get scale. Too acidic, or alkaline, and you risk corrosion. Either can cause machine failure, and coffee machines (of virtually any type, at virtually any price) tend to be moving very hot water about at pretty high temperatures. Water composition will also affect coffee taste.

Just about anything you do will involve a compromise (or six) somewhere in the process. For minimum expense, and minimum faffing about, maybe a 'pourover) like the V60 would do. Equipment is cheap (or can be, anyway), requiring an £8 V60, a kettle (gooseneckpouring kettle helps but is not strictly necessary), and a coffee scale (from about £20 on Amazon). But, you need a reasonably grinder, and several minutes per brew. Which it sounds like you don't have. That is the compromise with that route.

At the other end of the spectrum, Sqge Oracle. Built-in grinder, auto-dosing, auto-tamping, auto-milk frothing, and you can do espresso or any espresso-based drink in, what, under a minute (of your time) for, say, a latte. Superb solution, yes? No. The compromise is the £1700 price tag. #

BTC machines? I've used a fair few, cleaned a fair few and, well, okay coffee usually and minimal effort at time of brewing. The compromise? You can get better coffee for the same money (kind of) with semi-auto, but they're certainly more demanding of time at brew time than BTC.

Where the BTC machines often bite is that cleanliness problems can be hidden from daily sight in the internals and it's easy to therefore ignore cleaning routines and maintenance. But if you do, the problem often comes in reduced lifetime of the machine and if they pack up out of warranty, they're often uneconomic to repair. So be prepared toreplace it periodically.

Nespresso? Machines are cheap. There's nearly always a deal on, currently £99 for a Vertuo (the newer style pod), ad that includes a "frother". And, 200 capsules .... though beware, 100 of those are when you take out a pod subscription. Still, even 100 capsules (you don't get to pick which, though you do on the second 'subscription' 100) are worth (as defined by cost to buy) about £50-60, so the machine itself and the frother cost you about £30-£40.

The whole process could hardly be quicker (about 80 seconds) or easier, BUT .... the compromise? Two, really. Pods are expensive (typically, 45p-60p per pod), and can only be obtained eiher direct, or via a very limited range of uthorised dealers. The patents ar locked down, so no compatibles are available.

And, will you like the coffee? For me, it's okay, a coffee drink that's quick and easy. It does that job well. Will it match a proper or even BTC machine? Doubtful, but I refer you back to my comments about taste being subjective. How 'good' is good enough.

So, somewhere (in my very non-expert opinion) a compromise will exist. It might be time involved, it might be budget, it might be the longevity of the machine or time on maintenance, it might be .... ummm .... less than ideal flavour. But a perfect solution doesn't exist ... at any price. The question is, IMHO, where you draw the compromises.

I will now await the likely avalance of objections to all that. I'd just add that, like taste, opinions are subjective and that is mine.


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## Nightrider_1uk (Apr 26, 2020)

@CoffeePhilE. That was a well put together reply; that certainly addresses the major points. Having used BTC machines in an office environment I can vouch for the mess that gets inside of the machine gets in, It does take some cleaning.

Nespresso was very clever in the development of the Vertuo, re the comparable capsules since the older style capsules were heavily cloned.

I came from a Nespresso machine but used L'Or capsules in mine, (IMHO the best of the rest), which could always be had a a good discount direct from L'Or, thus making the cost of the cup (using two capsules) about 50p - 60p a cup. (And a limited range of L'Or capsules can be had from most supermarkets if you run out). Now, a lot of people using espresso and other brewing methods (including myself) use a dose of about 18g; At about £25/Kg this equates to about 45p per cup, so costs are a lot closer in this respect.

Nespresso does offer an option of a machine for £1 subscription service.


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## CoffeePhilE (Jan 4, 2021)

Nightrider_1uk said:


> @CoffeePhilE. That was a well put together reply;
> 
> ....
> 
> Nespresso does offer an option of a machine for £1 subscription service.


 Thanks.

Yes, there's a subscription model, but a compromise there, too. In that case, it's a minimum of £25/month, for a minimum of two years. i.e. £600 minimum spend. But yeah, that gets you a machine (which one depends on how much the subscription is for), AND £25 worth (at Nespresso prices) of coffee. I'm not saying it's a bad deal, necessarily, but it does lock you in for two years. My feeling is that unless the buyer simply just doesn't have the £99 necessary for the 'outright purchase' model, it's not a great deal either. And you can still get the benefits of subscriptions (usually, 2 out of first 6 months subscription for free, but months 1 and 6, 'cos they'e not idiots  ) and I think 10% discount on coffee. But, and this is a bit judgemental of me, if someone can't afford the £100 for the machine (and clearly, some can't) I question the wisdom of locking yourself into 2 years of subscription. If money is that tight, are fancy coffee pods the best use for it? And if it is, save up and go the £100 machine route - which has been available pretty much continuously for the last year, at least.

It's worth noting that by "subscription", what Nespresso mean is to *pay in* that £25 (or more) per month. It then goes on your account. You can, but aren't required to, also organise repeat orders every x weeks, or months. But you can pay in the £25 (or whatever) and let it build up on your account. Then order whatever you want, whenever you feel like it.

One other difference. While the £1 "machine subscription" locks you in for 24 months, the standard subscription doesn't lock you in at all. So, subscribe for 6 moths, you only pay for months 2,3,4 and 5. i.e. £50 off. But then, cancel or not, as suits you. You could even subscribe, get the first free month (might be month 2, can't remember) then cancel. You lose the month-6 freebie, of course, but you get 2 months (2 x£25) for £25. i.e. £25 free). I actually did that, though unintentionally. Nespresso didn't seem to mind.

However, while the £99 offer suited me *short-term,* I am glad to not be locked in for 2 years. Less than one year later, I have a Sage Oracle and Niche Zero, among other things. And yeah, I know the Oracle has a built-in grinder, but there are reasons, that go beyond this thread, for doing that, with grind quality being just one of them.

And, BTW, a huge shout out for DaveC for his patience (of a saint) in answering my barrage of questions by PM. I got there in the end, Dave. Many thanks.


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