# Sour pour over



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Been drinking my roasted Sumatra mandheling the last two days though pour over, noticed a slight sour taste on the right hand side of my tongue..

Am i right in thinking either grind is to course or temp of water may not be high enough?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Adjust grind first (finer) and see how it tastes.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

whats the brewing recipe?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Err no recipe im afraid, a little lazy at work, tend to chuck in 15g, then pour about 200-250g of hot water through, about 3 minutes.

Will have a crack tonight at home and do a proper weight/time.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

That could be your issue


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

yeah thought that, but then i have had the same taste all week....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How are you pouring the water, all in one go, or in stages?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

usually 2-3 stages, in an anti-clockwise motion... working my way from center to near the edge!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Anti-clockwise! Are you mad!? Oh, just ignore the Coriolis effect why don't you...









Try 4 or 5 pours. Water just off the boil.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Err no recipe im afraid, a little lazy at work, tend to chuck in 15g, then pour about 200-250g of hot water through, about 3 minutes.
> 
> Will have a crack tonight at home and do a proper weight/time.


200-250g water is quite a large range! 200g is not much water for 15g coffee and could result in under-extraction.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Took the grind a little finer this morning, removed most of the sour taste, but also feel its lost a lot of flavour now..

Also forgot my scales this morning so still kind of guessing on the output!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Took the grind a little finer this morning, removed most of the sour taste, but also feel its lost a lot of flavour now..


Lost flavour? Because it is more intense & muddled, or because it has less flavour/weaker generally? Tricky to do pulse pours without scales...adding different amounts & at different times will change the flow for same dose & grind, ending in a different extraction.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Flavour is still there, but not the nice flavour that was there before...

More a grassy flavour.

Will take my gear home this weekend and play around.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sounds like the yield has dropped off a bit?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

gonna wait till tomorrow and set it up properly, not having scales at work is not ideal.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

So managed to remember to bring some scales into work this morning, have tried the following this morning.

15g into 250g water, took nearly 4 minutes to dry out in the filter. A little sour still.

Took the grind a little coarser and went with the same weights, still took close to 4 minutes but took away the sour taste.

Will try taking it another notch on the grinder and see if i can get the time down towards 3 minutes.

This weeks bean is Guatemalan huehuetenango, medium to dark roast.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

To knock off a minute, with the same regime, just by coarsening grind, will drop extraction yield. Sourness would suggest that you might be under, coarsening up may make this worse?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yeah i deffo think the grind is too fine, looking on the web at grind suggestions i am way out..

Will have a crack in a bit.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Can you take us through the brew, step by step?

We know it's a V60 (01 or 02?), 15g dose, 250g water, ~3 pours (all equal, or a bloom plus 3?)....

Water from heating kettle to pouring kettle straight off boil? Pouring kettle preheated, does it have a lid?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Paper filter washed ? Any agitation ? Achieving Roa spin ?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Nope, not a V60, wife has that in her truck, i get the crappy Westmark thing.

http://www.gallacoffee.co.uk/acatalog/westmark-coffee-filter-cone.html

2 cup.

Rinse filter, add grinds, pop on cup and pop everything on scales and zero.

Start timer when kettle clicks off, wait 30 seconds then pour enough to soak grinds, little stir and wait 30 seconds, then pour around center of grinds to bring bloom up, anti clockwise, continue little pours to keep bloom up, usually 4 pours in total till scales say 250g, stop and let water run though and when bed is dry im done.

Just realized i start the counter 30 seconds before first pour, so actual extraction time is only about 3.30 mins.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

OK, nothing wrong with the Westmark cones.

Start your timer from the moment water first hits the grinds.

Try and add a definite & repeatable amount of water at even intervals, say bloom with 20-25g for 30s inc. stir, then 75g at every 45seconds (for instance)? Your initial stir should get all the grounds wet, so from then on try and keep the grinds washed down, rather than floating, don't worry about getting close to the edge of the brewer.

Are you pouring straight from the regular, heating kettle?

Roughly how many settings are you from lock up?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yep, standard heating kettle, need to pick up a pouring kettle.

How do you mean 'Roughly how many settings are you from lock up?'


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Yep, standard heating kettle, need to pick up a pouring kettle.
> 
> How do you mean 'Roughly how many settings are you from lock up?'


On the grinder, how many marks/clicks turned out from when the burrs lock?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I am about halfway on the settings, i did use that grinder you sent me, but the burrs tend to jump apart a bit to much giving an uneven grind.

Will take a photo of where i am now, and where i think i should be...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> I am about halfway on the settings, i did use that grinder you sent me, but the burrs tend to jump apart a bit to much giving an uneven grind.
> 
> Will take a photo of where i am now, and where i think i should be...


Ha ha, I did try to tell you...any of those cheaper (but still good value) grinders are more consistent on the finer end.

"Halfway on the settings"...half a turn, or halfway between lock up & the burr falling out?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Its one of these, you move the hopper to adjust grind, its just under halfway at the minute, more towards course then fine.

http://www.wholelattelove.com/Bodum/antigua.cfm


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I tried an approximation of your method just now

15g coffee - Medium grind

250g water, rinsed filter with boiling water began pour from electric household kettle around 30s off boil.

Bloom 25g, stirred

75g of brew water added starting at 30s

75g brew water added at 1:15

75g brew water added at 2:30

All drained ~4:25.

Sweet-ish, ball-park, but weak for the ratio, I'd guess because of the lack of control with the regular kettle against a pouring kettle, churning up the bed so that more water than usual was bypassing the grinds. I had quite a bit more coffee in the cup than I'd normally anticipate. I'll have a another go later, I'm thinking with the big agitation when pouring & until you get a pouring kettle, it might be an idea to get the water all in, in one go after blooming & fine up the grind to compensate?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Thanks Mark.

I think the kettle could come into play, i pour as gently as possible, but its still kind dropping water onto grinds which would move them around, looks like i should really pick up a decent pouring kettle.

I tried again this morning but a slightly courser grind, but felt this just took away more flavours, no sour taste but not really jumping out the cup at me.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Had another bash, this time went fine (fine drip/coarse espresso), bloomed 25g with a "muddle/stir" 30s, added the rest of the water reasonably quickly in 1 go, light stir of the surface, covered & let drip, finished at 3:00....I was hoping less time spent pouring would let the bed settle more & this would push up the retained liquid in the bed with a higher level of extraction from the fine grind. The actual result was...no change of any significance, whatsoever! 

I would perhaps steer towards finer end, to give you more scope across achievable extraction range & tailor the pour to suit. Sure, a pouring kettle would be good for better controlling bed disturbance.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Took the grind this morning more course, plus upped the dosage to 18g in, but still 250g out.

A lot better in the cup, not as much sourness cutting through.... Should be pleased, but reading the notes from Rave site..

Huehuetenango produces some of the best coffees in the country with a distinctive and pleasant acidity. Green apples, hints of citrus peel and an interesting complexity.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Took the grind this morning more course, plus upped the dosage to 18g in, but still 250g out.
> 
> A lot better in the cup, not as much sourness cutting through.... Should be pleased, but reading the notes from Rave site..
> 
> Huehuetenango produces some of the best coffees in the country with a distinctive and pleasant acidity. Green apples, hints of citrus peel and an interesting complexity.


250g in or out?

How would you say the flavours differ from the notes?

Coarser & a bigger dose (all else remaining equal) would usually mean a drop in extraction. Not knocking the bigger dose, with more of the water bypassing the grinds with the reular kettle, it could get you back to ball-park strength (concentration).


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

250g out.

Reading the notes, i would have to agree, the sour flavour is still there, but not on the sides of the side of your tongue, just an overall sourness which i guess you could describe as green apple.

Should have read the notes first really!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I would tend to differentiate "sourness" from "green apple acidity" - sourness strikes me as a defect (under), green apple acidity an attribute (though not one that everyone is going to look for, granted). I don't mind green apples, can certainly enjoy coffees with that attribute, but I don't like sour coffee.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yeah i think i was mistaking the apple acidity for sourness, it was definitely sour on my first attempts, as it hit the outer tongue, but that's now gone and the acidity flavor is there...

Lots to learn about this method, wanted to go the Foundry day, but going the hasbean one the day before seems more appealing..


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