# Finer grind Vs firmer tamp



## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

If I'm aiming for a 25/30 second pour what's best, a finer grind or a firmer tamp, or doesn't it make a difference?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

grind finer.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

keep tamp as consistent as possible - adjust grind to produce desired results


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

RS Designer said:


> If I'm aiming for a 25/30 second pour what's best, a finer grind or a firmer tamp, or doesn't it make a difference?


What they said - grind finer. In my brave new coffee world I don't push on the tamper - just use it as a levelling tool - rock n roll it is.


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

Ideal, I had a suspicion this would be the case. Thanks


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

http://www.baristahustle.com/how-hard-should-you-tamp/


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

I feel like I'm getting closer but I'm still not there. I have adjust the grind to a finer setting. The pour looks a good speed at the start but then starts to flow faster, I can see a couple of small holes in my my puck after extraction. Grind too fine or tamp too heavy?


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

What grinder are you using?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

RS Designer said:


> I feel like I'm getting closer but I'm still not there. I have adjust the grind to a finer setting. The pour looks a good speed at the start but then starts to flow faster, I can see a couple of small holes in my my puck after extraction. Grind too fine or tamp too heavy?


Forget the puck. Looking at the puck just tells you what the puck looks like. How did it taste?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Don't aim for a 25/30second pour. Aim for a brew ratio (beverage in g/dose in g) & adjust grind to taste, then record the time for a good tasting shot.

Tamp pressure is not thought to make a great deal of difference once over a few kg, up to 20kg.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

If you are seeing holes in the puck after then you need to look at your distribution, what grinder?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

also what beans you using and when were they roasted


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## PeteHr (Nov 18, 2015)

risky said:


> http://www.baristahustle.com/how-hard-should-you-tamp/


Interesting quote in here....

Bet there are plenty of curved tamper lovers that would dispute this one ! :

"To achieve even density we need a perfectly flat, horizontal bed of coffee. Flat tampers are crucial here. If you have a curved tamper, throw it out and buy a flat one."


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

perhaps if Matt tried some of these new techniques he might win something again


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

Grinder Iberital MC2, beans are from Rave (pack only opened a few days ago and kept in fridge since). My shot tastes a bit watery. My suspicion was that perhaps the grind was getting too fine and the water was finding a route through the puck, hence the holes. I also noticed the flat tamper comment, I'm using a curved.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I wouldn't worry about the flat vs curved preference, that's just individual preference, despite what ageing past wbc winners claim, there is just as much counter argument to it.

normally when I get sudden channeling it's either due to not being fine enough, an uneven tamp or, with some beans (normally very light roasts or pacamaras) I just need to down dose a gram, over dosing can also cause it .... How many grams you dosing into what basket


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

h1udd said:


> I wouldn't worry about the flat vs curved preference, that's just individual preference, despite what ageing past wbc winners claim, there is just as much counter argument to it.


I haven't seen that, can you point me to it? Every test I have seen/heard/read about came to the same conclusion...curved tampers drop your extraction compared to flat. Never seen a test that showed the reverse.


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

I'm dosing 13/14 grams. I'm careful to distribute the the dose evenly before tamping. I lightly tamp first to even the bed before tamping with pressure. beans are medium roast (Rave signature blend).


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Take your beans out the fridge, that's where the milk lives!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What basket?


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

Basket = https://www.happydonkey.co.uk/hd0183-gaggia-double-filter-basket.html


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Could try upping dose, you've got a bit more wiggle room with that


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## @3aan (Mar 2, 2013)

Firmer tamp is like an Fairy tale! 3 kilo or 300 kilo its all the same!

An good level and distribution of your coffee, not much else.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I'd up the dose to around 17-18g and loosen the grind a bit to compensate. Don't worry about tamp too much as it makes a very small difference.

Higher dose and looser grind may well help the channeling as well.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

I suffered from channeling with my MC2, may be talking crap here but my logic was the static caused by this grinder caused the fines stick to the plastic chute causing a shite distribution...

But as already mentioned dose more in that basket, 18g, then see what happens.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

can someone explain why tamp pressure plays no part. I thought that the rate at which the water travelled through the puck effected the time of the shot. If the puck is more condensed, then it must slow the passage of water down more?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Tamp pressure is a variable but not as much as originally thought. Grinds are not uniform size or shape and don't pack together like Lego. Also, during the extraction, fines migrate towards the bottom of the basket creating resistance to water flow and impacting on extraction uniformity which is why grinders with greater particle size distribution accuracy are able to achieve higher rates of extraction without increasing bitterness.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Tamp pressure is a variable but not as much as originally thought. Grinds are not uniform size or shape and don't pack together like Lego. Also, during the extraction, fines migrate towards the bottom of the basket creating resistance to water flow and impacting on extraction uniformity which is why grinders with greater particle size distribution accuracy are able to achieve higher rates of extraction without increasing bitterness.


simple really then........but I still do not buy it. We are talking micro adjustments as usual I think. I do not see particle size as making much difference at all if packed together tightly to provide a uniform wall of resistance.


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## @3aan (Mar 2, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> simple really then........but I still do not buy it. We are talking micro adjustments as usual I think. I do not see particle size as making much difference at all if packed together tightly to provide a uniform wall of resistance.


You don't have to buy it, it's for free!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> simple really then........but I still do not buy it. We are talking micro adjustments as usual I think. I do not see particle size as making much difference at all if packed together tightly to provide a uniform wall of resistance.


Gary or Boots did three test shots tamping from light to compressing it as hard as possible and time didn't really vary. Unsure if it affected extraction though.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> simple really then........but I still do not buy it. We are talking micro adjustments as usual I think. I do not see particle size as making much difference at all if packed together tightly to provide a uniform wall of resistance.


Smaller particles pack together with a higher density than larger particles (so you don't get a uniform wall of resistance...if you did you wouldn't need to adjust grind), but studies have shown that tamp pressure between "a few Kg" to 20kg is adequate across different densities.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

An old joke, but one that illustrates the point relating to particle size distribution...

A philosophy professor stood before his class and had some items in front of him.

He picked up a large jar and began to fill it with rocks about five centimetres in diameter. He then asked the students if the jar was full? They agreed that it was.

The professor picked up a box of pebbles and poured them into the jar. He shook the jar lightly, causing the pebbles to roll into the areas between the rocks. Again, he asked the students if the jar was full. Again, they agreed it was.

The professor picked up a box of sand and poured it into the jar. The sand filled all the gaps.

"Now," said the professor, "I want you to recognise that this is your life. The rocks are the important things - your family, your partner, your health, your children - things that if everything else was lost and only they remained, your life would still be full.

"The pebbles are the other things that matter like your job, your house, your car.

"The sand is everything else, the small stuff. If you put the sand into the jar first, there is no room for the pebbles or the rocks.

"The same goes for your life. If you spend all your time and energy on the small stuff, you will never have room for the things that are important to you. Pay attention to the things that are critical to your happiness. Play with your children. Take time to get medical checkups. Take your partner out to a show. There will always be time to go to work, clean the house or give a dinner party. Take care of the rocks first - the things that really matter. Set your priorities. The rest is just sand."

At that point, a student took the jar and poured in a glass of beer. The beer filled the remaining spaces, making it truly full.

The moral: no matter how full your life is, there is always room for beer.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

NickdeBug said:


> An old joke, but one that illustrates the point relating to particle size distribution...
> 
> A philosophy professor stood before his class and had some items in front of him.
> 
> ...


Or coffee.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

For what it's worth, I don't press down on the tamp handle anymore - just apply finger pressure to the tamp's metal shoulder.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

I have found that a firm tamp is necessary with a flat tamper to prevent an uneven pour - if I tamp light then too much seems to come down the sides of the basket than down the middle. I figured the firm tamp helped press the coffee into the basket and against the sides more effectively. Works for me anyway.


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## @3aan (Mar 2, 2013)

Buy an better fitting tamper!

It's normal that your pour starts at the side, seeing by a naked basket.

The uniformity of the total pour is important.

If You start walking, it takes time to come to full speed, the same is with Your coffee!



@3aan said:


> Firmer tamp is like an Fairy tale! 3 kilo or 300 kilo its all the same!
> 
> An good level and distribution of your coffee, not much else.


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