# 83 degrees - less is more...



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mr smokeybarn said re his lsol espresso recipe

"My personal preference (espresso) for this one is quite a strong ratio, 1:1.5 around 27 sec at a low temp (83c) just because I enjoy the intensity

Indeed, I may have inadvertently opened a can of worms here. 83c is just what I have been doing, that, of course, doesn't mean that it only works at 83c. Just do what you normally do!"

Aaron said

"And loads of people in various brewing competitions around the world also winning with water at 80-85 degrees C!

Less is more, lower is better!"

Discuss


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So temp is surely must one variable to achieve nominal tasty extraction (18-20 ey ) ..although I suspect my smokey barn may be enjoying his lsol in the tasty under extracted hump at 16 ey...

Although Aaron alludes to brewers in comps using lower temps , ive not seen anyone do this at espresso level and I suspect the brewers Aaron mentions are still hitting nominal extraction levels just using temp as a variable instead of grind and dose ( or they enjoy the hump...)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I will give this a bash on the gs3 and report back ove the weekend


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I will give this a bash on the gs3 and report back ove the weekend


Sounds you and that there pump have got a wee something going on


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

No refractometer for testing but I've had brewed coffee made for me at 85 degrees in the clever and aeropress and it was so tasty, juicy, fruity mmmm Also if you check my thread on the 3 Japanese aeropress champs they all brewed at ~80 degrees C

Not done any experiments on the L1 as it isn't that straightforward to adjust the temp

I was a bit surprised more hasn't been done on lower temps on the forum, especially when I saw a thread with someone brewing a coffee at 98 degrees! but then I haven't experimented that much myself either.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

But Aaron all of those are brewed not espresso, you will have to work hard on the l1 to play at lower temps


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

aaronb said:


> No refractometer for testing but I've had brewed coffee made for me at 85 degrees in the clever and aeropress and it was so tasty, juicy, fruity mmmm Also if you check my thread on the 3 Japanese aeropress champs they all brewed at ~80 degrees C
> 
> Not done any experiments on the L1 as it isn't that straightforward to adjust the temp
> 
> I was a bit surprised more hasn't been done on lower temps on the forum, especially when I saw a thread with someone brewing a coffee at 98 degrees! but then I haven't experimented that much myself either.


Ok so let's take the MP v60/recipe . if I brew that at 83c and change nothing else ( dose , water in etc ). What will happened? Either a 83 c brew is in the hump extraction range or or one or other variable has been adjusted to compensate or the roast of the coffee is dark or people like super bright nominally under extraction extracted coffee (btw I have no problem with this )


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> But Aaron all of those are brewed not espresso, you will have to work hard on the l1 to play at lower temps


Yeah too much effort to adjust the L1, I'll pop into the roastery sometime when Chris is free and try an espresso at 83 if I can!


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok so let's take the MP v60/recipe . if I brew that at 83c and change nothing else ( dose , water in etc ). What will happened? Either a 83 c brew is in the hump extraction range or or one or other variable has been adjusted to compensate or the roast of the coffee is dark or people like super bright nominally under extraction extracted coffee (btw I have no problem with this )


No scientific basis to back up my claims, so i'm going for super bright nominally under extraction extracted coffee!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

aaronb said:


> No scientific basis to back up my claims, so i'm going for super bright nominally under extraction extracted coffee!












out of interest , shall i do a v60 at 83c with my regular recipe and see what happens?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Yes and let's see your face when you drink it please


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> out of interest , shall i do a v60 at 83c with my regular recipe and see what happens?


Yes please and refract too.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok so 83c relates to an espresso recipe ...Aaron where you have seen these lower temps for brew what have been the range ? 85 c?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Aeropress recipes are commonly 85ish?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> Aeropress recipes are commonly 85, Japanese winning recipes were published online and they were all 80-85


There you go jeebsy... aeropress for you ....v60 from me ....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> There you go jeebsy... aeropress for you ....v60 from me ....


Ok I'll do it tonight


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

there is a recipe on this page

go to day 8 , brew at 88c

i might try this one as well....https://prima-coffee.com/blog/v60-brewmethod-review


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

What beans/roast?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

For the aeropress try one of the 3 recipes I posted from the Sprudge link in the Brewed forum

Struggling to find a written v60 recipe, I think the (clever) brew I had was loosely translate from an aeropress recipe with bloom then additional water both at 85 degrees C, standard ratio of 60g/L couple of minutes brew then the last of the water left in the clever


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> What beans/roast?


firstly - I can use the bolivian i got from SM as a comparison as i know what EY i was getting at 96c and the same dose grind etc......

Ill then try a lighter burundi with a brighter profile for comparison


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

aaronb said:


> For the aeropress try one of the 3 recipes I posted from the Sprudge link in the Brewed forum


They're all a pain in the arse

http://sprudge.com/3-winning-recipes-from-the-2015-japan-aeropress-championship.html


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Get that brewtus down to 83 and bang out an espresso jeebsy


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Get that brewtus down to 83 and bang out an espresso jeebsy


In jockland without his heating on , the ambient temp probably takes it down to that anyway ....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Part one of the test:

96 degrees on the kettle

17.5g El Sal Finca San Jose

Grind 7 on EK Irish dial

253g water in

3 slow stirs then top on

Started pushing at 1.15

Stopped at first hiss which was 1.50 (aiming for 1.45)

222g out

TDS = 1.4

  Untitled by wjheenan, on Flickr

I'll make on of the same at 85 tomorrow, it's so cold the refrac has packed up


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## RazorliteX (Mar 2, 2014)

I can't see this ever being applicable to espresso machines unless it's something capable of maintaining a consistent temperature in a -2/2 range.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Oh and my gs3 will do that


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

+/-2 what? Celsius?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok what do we think happened to the v60 at 85 c then ....

Remember same recipe as on the v60 thread

12 g 200g water bloom stit etc

Same grind setting ....

96c result were

tds 1.29

extraction yield 19.98 %

time 2 mins 15

an optimsed recipe for a great balanced drink , nice mouthfeel and strength , sweetness creamy chocolate and vanilla , and yoghurty

So longer time to extract or shorter?

Stronger or weaker ( measured via tds )

More extracted or less extracted ( measured via extraction yield )

tastier or not ....


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

Different compounds extract at different temperatures. You could theoretically achieve the same EY at 82 as at 93, if you alter time, grind, etc, but it won't taste the same.

I suspect light roast espresso beans are not going to taste good at the low temps described.

JP


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Guess no one wants to play ....



Mrboots2u said:


> Ok what do we think happened to the v60 at 85 c then ....
> 
> Remember same recipe as on the v60 thread
> 
> ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

go on boots tell us tell us


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Yeah spill the coffee beans


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok what do we think happened to the v60 at 85 c then ....
> 
> Remember same recipe as on the v60 thread
> 
> ...


Are you talking about kettle temperature or slurry temp? 85c in an espresso machine is 85c in the puck (or near as damn it) 85c in the kettle does not = 85c in the coffee bed.

I would have thought that the lower temp brew would be brighter and slightly lower TDS (if the pour was identical). I've not really had mega sour from the EK so I'm interested in the results. I would have thought that the effect of cooler water wouldn't be massive in brewed as the room is 19-20c so you are up at 85/95c then the hotter water will cool quicker so the resulting slurry temp wouldn't be as far out as 10c when all said and done...

Just a theory..

If you were at Jeesy's house then it'd probably freeze on the way out of the spout!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ooooare you in spence wight he low temp shots?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Are you talking about kettle temperature or slurry temp? 85c in an espresso machine is 85c in the puck (or near as damn it) 85c in the kettle does not = 85c in the coffee bed.
> 
> I would have thought that the lower temp brew would be brighter and slightly lower TDS (if the pour was identical). I've not really had mega sour from the EK so I'm interested in the results. I would have thought that the effect of cooler water wouldn't be massive in brewed as the room is 19-20c so you are up at 85/95c then the hotter water will cool quicker so the resulting slurry temp wouldn't be as far out as 10c when all said and done...
> 
> ...


Not slurry temp , kettle temp ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

stop gibberring boots and give us the results


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> ooooare you in spence wight he low temp shots?


My only experiences with low temp espresso was my I accidentally factory reset the PID on my verona. This meant that the brew temp was around 82c rather than the 94 that I had it set to on the display. I knew something wasn't right but the temp was so low that the shot didn't actually taste bad as such they just lacked intensity, sweetness and top end that I was hitting with the temp correctly set. I think if I'd have been at 88/89c then it would have been a different story and the shots would have tasted nasty.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok what do we think happened to the v60 at 85 c then ....

Remember same recipe as on the v60 thread

12 g 200g water bloom stit etc

Same grind setting ....

96c result were

tds 1.29

extraction yield 19.98 %

time 2 mins 15

an optimsed recipe for a great balanced drink , nice mouthfeel and strength , sweetness creamy chocolate and vanilla , and yoghurty

So longer time to extract or shorter? EXTRACTION TIME INCREASED FROM 2.15 to 2.53 ( lower temps extract less and not as quickly .. )

Stronger or weaker ( measured via tds ) TDS WENT FROM 1.29 to 1.19 ( it got weaker )

More extracted or less extracted ( measured via extraction yield ) EXTRACTION YIELD LESS 18.42%

tastier or not ....NOT TASTIER WAS OK BUT NOT AS SWEER OR BALANCED IN THE CUP

Nothing really surprising though , so temp as we thought is just one variable , that can manipulate extraction yields same as dose , grind and volume of water

and quite boring


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

you built this up and give us that?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> you built this up and give us that?


thanks for that invaluable 360 feedback


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Oh well, worth a try.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

Was hoping for a taste sensation, never mind, thanks for doing the experiment boots!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Xpenno said:


> Was hoping for a taste sensation, never mind, thanks for doing the experiment boots!


It was just mediocre , i did a finer grind , 85c , same recipe one after and got the EY back up to 20 % plus ...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

At least we learned something. Thanks Boots.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The guy that won the aeropress thing advised a coarse grind with the low temp. The two together seems a bit counterintuitive from your results


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I have played with low temp espresso in the past. It made everything taste bland , like generic Brazil , surprisingly low acidity.

Think about cold brew, other end of the spectrum - v low acidity


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> I have played with low temp espresso in the past. It made everything taste bland , like generic Brazil , surprisingly low acidity.
> 
> Think about cold brew, other end of the spectrum - v low acidity


It's like the old extraction hump, if you go way under on temp then it doesn't taste bad it just tastes bland. If you are just a few degrees under/over the ideal temp then it can taste really bad.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Thanks Boots. You've done the ground work for me not attempting low temp brewing.


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

I'm gonna run through a few different higher temps (espresso) tomorrow and give some feedback. It could just be that I'm weird, for example I find espresso made via EK47 to be completely lacking.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

smokeybarn said:


> I'm gonna run through a few different higher temps (espresso) tomorrow and give some feedback. It could just be that I'm weird, for example I find espresso made via EK47 to be completely lacking.


Agreed, I prefer the AK variant


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Not sure which one is more damaging..


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Aaron one for you....

http://www.home-barista.com/brewing/183-f-brewing-water-wins-eastern-aeropress-championship-t34325.html#p389337


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> The guy that won the aeropress thing advised a coarse grind with the low temp. The two together seems a bit counterintuitive from your results


Depends why they are using a coarse grind and low temp..

I used a finer grind to increase TDs and extraction yield to nominal levels by using a low temp..

The recipe of coarse and low temp ( poss updosed ) could be there to achieve a certain level of under extraction and taste


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Aaron one for you....
> 
> http://www.home-barista.com/brewing/183-f-brewing-water-wins-eastern-aeropress-championship-t34325.html#p389337


That one i'll try


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

I don't want to give too much flavor detail away because of lsol hast started yet, but, I've now tried the same bean at: 87c, 91c, and 94c.

Results were: each time it got hotter the taste got proportionately brighter and sweeter. But it lost the (possibly sour) intensity that I like (and which I feel might cut through a milk drink better). But essentially, all of them were lovely







I reckon around 90 would be a good starting point for others to try.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

cheers chris, did you get the pm?


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> cheers chris, did you get the pm?


Yes indeed, now sorting


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> cheers chris, did you get the pm?


Did you get my text?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

who chris or me


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Did you get my text?


You got my nunber?







yeah I think so, about using a different address right?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> who chris or me


You



smokeybarn said:


> You got my nunber?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah I sent you a pm in case Dave didn't get my text


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://www.thecoffeecompass.com/chris-heiniger-wins-eastern-aeropress-championship/

22g Finca San Jose

17.75 EY

1.55 TDS

83/84 degree water

In the interest of disclosure i went about 15ml over with the water but can't be arsed doing it again right now.

It is a pretty strong drink, quite intense but still nice. Actually quite moreish, does weird things to your mouth, not sure if that's the cherry acidity coming through or what


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

i wonder how the roast level of your coffee ( described as medium ) compares to the home roasted of the winning recipe

I suspect that the recipe coffee is a bit lighter , meaning you'd end up in hump nom territory ( 16 ish ey )


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'll try with the lsol when it comes through


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