# How would you evaluate a grinder?



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I've currently got an E8 - that I'm very happy with and I'm sure is doing a good enough job for my espresso at the moment.

In addition, I have a Hausgrind, Baratza precisio and Sage Pro grinder. I'm essentially considering these as brewed grinders and am also likely to move one of them on (not likely to be the Hausgrind but you never know).

I've also got a ROK handgrinder on the way from the crowdfunding (on the way being eventually it'll arrive once they're ready), a feldfarb should be "soon" winging it's way to me and I think it's time to admit I have a problem. I've also recently purchased a VST refractometer but haven't had the chance to read enough to feel confident using it but will be cracking that open soon (I've taken the highly unusual decision of trying to read the manual before using it and that's holding me back so far).

Anyway all of that just to show you the equipment I'd like to evaluate and in addition for brewing with said grinders I have aeropress, Clever coffee dripper, sowdens (2 n 4 cup), behmohr brazen plus, v60, impress, french press and chemex (I think that's it anyway). So my thinking is I should pick one of these brewing methods and start trying to get what I consider to be a tasty cup with one of these grinders and using the same brewing technique and dose (as much as possible). Then perhaps refracting the brew to get some stats and see when I think is the best I can get out of that grinder. Then rinse and repeat with each grinder, until I've decided which grinder is best for that brew and then perhaps try a different brewing method and repeat (I understood they could be different strengths of grinder even between brew)? Or do I just assume that Hausgrind is best for the smaller uses, because it's supposed to be very well received by many people and then worry about trying to use either the sage or precisio for the Behmohr and Chemex (because it's a 6 - 8 cup) and see which one wins there?

After doing all that I'll probably also take a look at the E8 as a brewed grinder but first I'll try and not throw my espresso settings out too much.

Any advice gratefully received.

Also, it may just end up that I buy a "superior" grinder after all this but I'm thinking this would be a good way for me to learn more about grinders, grind settings, looking at grinds, brewing, repeatability, refracting and so on but it might just be madness and I end up sticking with one because I haven't got the patience for the long haul (just the initial rush of the purchase







).

Thanks in advance.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Best advice i can give, use the return key, hard work reading that lot!

Why would you use the E8 for brewed, seems a waste of a good grinder, why not flog all the other grinders and pick up one good grinder for brewed only?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Best advice i can give, use the return key, hard work reading that lot!
> 
> Why would you use the E8 for brewed, seems a waste of a good grinder, why not flog all the other grinders and pick up one good grinder for brewed only?


Good point, it was a bit of a brain dump I'll tidy it.

I wouldn't use the E8 exclusively for brewed, I'd see if I could switch it for both.

I probably will buy a better brewed grinder but it wouldn't necessarily advance my understanding of these things, unless it'll just taste so much better that I'll "get it" without all the hard work?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Sounds to me like you have got a little wrapped up in the technical aspects of coffee making and are in danger of (as was once put to me by Gary) "disappearing up your own arse"









I think that you are right - pick a single set up fro espresso (assuming your E8 and Strega) and one for brewed (you can't go wrong with the Brazen) and start enjoying coffee.

Get as much experience of drinking it as you can. Without this you probably won't even notice the benefit of the last few % improvements that you get from buying all the kit.

edit - actually, now that I think about it the above quote can be attributed to Dave C


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As froggy says You would be better of financially and in the cup using a Baratza or hand grinder for brewed as opposed to the e8


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Agreed, you can spend forever thinking about what grinder is the right one, spend forever looking at them, spend a fortune on buying different ones and selling them a few weeks later.....

End of the day, pick a grinder that has good feedback for brewed and fits in your kitchen, then enjoy your coffee.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Recommend you get used to the refractometer with brewed coffee. Start with using the Preciso and a drip method such as Chemex - one that doesn't involve any stirring. Use the same brew ratio, e.g. 30grms >500grms and tweak your grind so you come in with an extraction yield of 19-20% inside four minutes total brew time. Once you are consistently hitting these EY parameters, try down dosing and updosing 2-3grms keeping everything else constant and see what you think of the resultant brews - using, of course, the same beans. A refractometer doesn't make great coffee or tell you anything about what it tastes like but it will help you sharpen your technique. Once you are really competent with Chemex or whatever first method you choose, move on to the next - e.g V60 or CCD. Brew methods that involve agitation/stirring are a challenge consistency-wise because the amount of agitation - how vigorously or how many times you stir will have an impact on extraction. Syphon, for these reasons, can be a real challenge to hit the same extraction yields time after time.

Once you've really nailed brew coffee, go on to measuring espresso extraction yields. You will find, for example, you won't be able to over-extract a ristretto. That pulling long will raise extraction yields but not necessarily improve the taste of espresso. Again, a refractometer provides lots of feedback info - it doesn't tell you if the coffee tastes good.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> As froggy says You would be better of financially and in the cup using a Baratza or hand grinder for brewed as opposed to the e8


2 genuine questions 1. why would I be financially better off, if I already own the E8 and am using it for espresso and proposing that I could use it for both? 2. How do you know I would be better off, "in the cup"?

It's very probable that these are all valid points, I just imagine at some point somebody telling big Matt that he couldn't use a spice grinder for coffee etc.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

NickdeBug said:


> Sounds to me like you have got a little wrapped up in the technical aspects of coffee making and are in danger of (as was once put to me by Gary) "disappearing up your own arse"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's entirely possible ref. my arse - it's just about big enough that I could collapse in on myself.

Actually that's probably a different post, but after a promising start the Brazen is the one that I can consistently get wrong. I've had overflows with the paper filter, weak cups with the gold filter and nothing that's been really stunning yet.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> 2 genuine questions 1. why would I be financially better off, if I already own the E8 and am using it for espresso and proposing that I could use it for both? 2. How do you know I would be better off, "in the cup"?
> 
> It's very probable that these are all valid points, I just imagine at some point somebody telling big Matt that he couldn't use a spice grinder for coffee etc.


Sorry thought you were going to use if for brewed only ......

If you want a great espresso grinder for espresso keep and use the e8 ( are single doing this btw )

If you want a hassle free life ( not dialling back and forth ) and a grinder that is better and more consistent at coarser grind sizes or brewed supplement it with a hand grinder or baratza


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

There is no way i would want to switch between brewed/spro with the E10, reckon you would waste a lot of coffee!

What type of beans are you using for brewed/Spro?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> but after a promising start the Brazen is the one that I can consistently get wrong. I've had overflows with the paper filter, weak cups with the gold filter and nothing that's been really stunning yet.


Find this odd, i found it the most easiest brew method yet, are you chopping and changing to much?

How much coffee/water are you using with the paper filter?


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Find this odd, i found it the most easiest brew method yet, are you chopping and changing to much?
> 
> How much coffee/water are you using with the paper filter?


Agreed. Loving the Brazen. First time that I have really got the true flavours of the bean and with almost no effort.

Use mainly lighter roasts but it has been very successful with approx 60g/l (so quite a high dose) at 94C with 2.5 mins pre-soak. Still using the original basket. Grind is a medium to coarse sand - or setting 40 on the Sage grinder, which I am currently using for brewed at work even though I have been told that it is rubbish.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Find this odd, i found it the most easiest brew method yet, are you chopping and changing to much?
> 
> How much coffee/water are you using with the paper filter?


Could be too much change, I'm thinking of trying to get a bigger order of one bean and trying to get it worked out. It's put me off after a few disasters because wasting 60g of coffee at a time just feels more painful somehow.

I was using a litre of water and 60g coffee.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Drop to 30g/0.5ltr then, makes two cups, less waste if it goes wrong.

Paper filter works best for me due to getting more body, also noted the grinds are very close at 30g when finished to touching top of the filter, not tried it with 60g but would guess its to much and will spill out.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> There is no way i would want to switch between brewed/spro with the E10, reckon you would waste a lot of coffee!
> 
> What type of beans are you using for brewed/Spro?


Good point, I guess swinging way out and back in would inherently lead to either muddled grind or a lot of wastage.

A proper mixture, I'm on the DSOL so I'm persevering with them as espresso. I also get IMM weekly and buy mixed other things as well. I've got 1kg of Rocko mountain on the way somewhere in the MyHermes system at the moment. I've got a bit of an assortment to work through but then I'm planning to try and buy more of a certain bean so that I can try to get the best out of it with whichever method I'm using at the time.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Drop to 30g/0.5ltr then, makes two cups, less waste if it goes wrong.
> 
> Paper filter works best for me due to getting more body, also noted the grinds are very close at 30g when finished to touching top of the filter, not tried it with 60g but would guess its to much and will spill out.


Have you tried it? I did a couple of 30g early on but I was worried the coffee bed is then very thin and that would perhaps be leading to a weaker brew?

I've no problem giving it a go, just don't want to set off on a sort of wild goose chase, where the goose is an unattainable strength profile with that mixture of brewing technique and dosage etc. hmmm maybe that analogy is too forced


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yes, i do a 30g/0.5ltr brew every morning at work, i enjoy it, but its down to what you enjoy, try it!

Back on to the brewed grinder bit though, how much you would want to spend for the ultimate, last time purchase?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Espresso grinders don't make a grind quality which lends itself to good brewed coffee. The little Baratza will win hands down


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Espresso grinders don't make a grind quality which lends itself to good brewed coffee. The little Baratza will win hands down


I'll add that part of my reason for starting this whole post is the Baratza's seem to be well respected and regarded for brewed which is why I bought it but then I've not been getting on that well with it. So I'm wondering is it the grinder or perhaps more likely me. So was hoping in the evaluation of the grinders and so on that I'd both taste loads of coffee and start to address that question.

Maybe my starting point is TSK approach for chemex using the Baratza and I'll try and work out the Sage with the Brazen. Then I've hopefully got some good starting points. I'll carry on using the Hausgrind with aeropress and I've almost found a job for everything...which would be a handy side benefit .


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> I'll add that part of my reason for starting this whole post is the Baratza's seem to be well respected and regarded for brewed which is why I bought it but then I've not been getting on that well with it. So I'm wondering is it the grinder or perhaps more likely me. So was hoping in the evaluation of the grinders and so on that I'd both taste loads of coffee and start to address that question.
> 
> Maybe my starting point is TSK approach for chemex using the Baratza and I'll try and work out the Sage with the Brazen. Then I've hopefully got some good starting points. I'll carry on using the Hausgrind with aeropress and I've almost found a job for everything...which would be a handy side benefit .


Why do you need to use the sage for one and the baratza for another method, are they in different locations, office/home?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Why do you need to use the sage for one and the baratza for another method, are they in different locations, office/home?


Nope, I don't need to. My thinking was, so far I haven't been wild about the Baratza so getting it nailed with one method might help with that, potentially the Chemex and Behmor are close enough in grind to make it easy to use it with both though.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Never used the sage, but i would think the baratza would be a better grinder, me, i would ditch the sage and learn to dial the baratza in.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Never used the sage, but i would think the baratza would be a better grinder, me, i would ditch the sage and learn to dial the baratza in.


I might just start with that as a premise and potentially just with the Chemex so I know where I am.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Simplify, simplify, simplify


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> I might just start with that as a premise and potentially just with the Chemex so I know where I am.


Behmor + Baratza = easy brew, learn it, master it, then move on to chemex, v60, moka impress, Fp, Clever or sowdon....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> I might just start with that as a premise and potentially just with the Chemex so I know where I am.


Stick with the Chemex and Baratza to begin with. When the Rocky Mountain arrives, tweak the brew grind to come in at 19% EY using 30grms >500grms. You should get boozy fruit and strawberry type sweetness with a nicely balanced body/mouthfeel. Taking the extraction yield up will see the flavour clarity become muted and disappear behind the mouthfeel. The coffee will still be good but not with the wonderful flavour notes. You can try taking the EY lower than 19% - with Rocky Mountain being a naturally processed bean and therefore big and bold, the flavour clarity will still be there - I've gone as low as 18% but the body/mouthfeel suffers. Brew methods are great for playing around with extraction yields and finding what effect they have on taste.

Espresso, by its nature, is a quick and brutal process - increasing extraction yields don't necessarily mean better tasting coffee.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Simplify, simplify, simplify


OK well said but perhaps try this next time ;-).



jeebsy said:


> Simplify


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

ahhh you did a funny!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> OK well said but perhaps try this next time ;-).


S


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Espresso, by its nature, is a quick and brutal process - increasing extraction yields don't necessarily mean better tasting coffee.


This is my, Quote of the day, I mostly like the first part.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jlarkin said:


> I'll add that part of my reason for starting this whole post is the Baratza's seem to be well respected and regarded for brewed which is why I bought it but then I've not been getting on that well with it. .


Describe the issues you have using it?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Describe the issues you have using it?


I'll be committing time to trying it with the chemex and refractometer but basically it seems like the grinds are quite coarse even at a low setting and in taste I don't seem to be getting as much flavour out of a bean as I would expect. I need to get de-ionised water and then I'll make a start with the refractometer because it's always possible it's me.

Just an example, I had chemex on setting 12 today and Baratza recommend around a 20. I saw on the baratza website a guide to change the grind but didn't want to do that in case it's just my misunderstanding a la kalita wave filters or just that my tastes are a bit different compared to the recommendations.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Describe the issues you have using it?


I've had two attempts this morning + refractometer and they (to my understanding) confirm what I'd been thinking. I got used 30g coffee, 500g water, chemex, bloom (~40seconds) and then added all the water in one continuous pour until it was all in. Total time for both was about 4 minutes or just over.

With Baratza Precisio on 13a, I had 1.09 TDS and 14.66EY

With baratza precisio on 11a, I had 1.13 TDS and 17.47EY

Both tasted pretty weak. I'm thinking that I need to re-calibrate the grinder, because it looks quite coarse at this setting and I know I could turn the setting finer to see if it gets better but it feels like I'll be nearly at the end of the adjustment. Would you recommend doing anything differently before I follow the Baratza guide for recalibration?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Keep grind on 11a and try the following. 50-60grms water and bloom for 30secs. Top up to 250grms circular pour up to as near the edge as you can get without pouring directly on to it. At 1min 15sec, add remaining water in same circular pour and aim to have all remaining water in by 1.45secs. Then, stir surface very lightly, pick up the Chemex and tap down it down firmly but not excessively on worktop to settle grinds. You want the total brew time to come in around three and a half to four mins - definitely not more than four. Check TDS and, with a bit of luck, it will bring it up to somewhere in the sweet zone of 19-20% EY.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Try 9a . Stir the whole brew once all water in . Report back


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Try 9a . Stir the whole brew once all water in . Report back


9.a gave it a once around stir, 1.15 TDS, 17.78 EY, still just quite nothing. Not unpleasant as such but not inspiring. I don't know if it gives anything away but this is the photo at the end

Also an unusually uneven bed for me






.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Go finer.

Bed doesn't look that uneven from the pic. Stirring the surface gently to get a spin and tapping the Chemex on the worktop will produce a level bed.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Went 6a this morning also first of Rocko Mountain (took a while to get here) so I'll stick with that now for brewed until it's gone (1kg).

Bloom, all water in by 2 minutes. Quick stir and tap. All water through by 4m30 almost all through around 4m

1.22TDS N 18.89. Definitely a little more body and tasted almost more like coffee flavour as in no real fruit coming through or anything too interesting.

I've seen quite a bit of feedback that they're good brewed grinders and 6 seems very low to be getting these results, hence me thinking is a bit off somewhere.


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## Mr O (Jan 14, 2015)

Have you tried it against your Hausgrind? that's what I intend to use for brewed.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

At 18.89% EY - you're in zone for good flavour clarity/body balance. Are you getting boozy fruit notes? Boozy = slightly fermented when a fruit, e.g. a banana has gone over-ripe. Booziness is a real feature of a natural.

Might be a good idea as Mr O suggests, to try out the Hausgrind which I've used with Rocko Mountain and got the taste notes bang on.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> At 18.89% EY - you're in zone for good flavour clarity/body balance. Are you getting boozy fruit notes? Boozy = slightly fermented when a fruit, e.g. a banana has gone over-ripe. Booziness is a real feature of a natural.
> 
> Might be a good idea as Mr O suggests, to try out the Hausgrind which I've used with Rocko Mountain and got the taste notes bang on.


Replying to both quotes.

I wasn't particularly getting any fruits not even boozy ones (thanks for the explanation of what they are, kept meaning to read up on them a bit more as a definition).

I'll try the Hausgrind with it next. My starting premise was that the Preciso isn't working properly and that's still my feeling. I'll see if the Hausgrind improves matters or if my tastebuds are just knackered 



Mr O said:


> Have you tried it against your Hausgrind? that's what I intend to use for brewed.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Did wonder about the burrs on the Preciso. Be interesting to see how you get on with the Hausgrind which should do the Rocky Mountain true justice.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Hausgrind on 1.7 took nearly 5 minutes for all water to go through (majority through by 4 and then big slow down towards the end). I'll try a bit either side and see what happens.

Much better, not masses of fruit but better body to it and flavour starting to come through in the fruit.

Readings wise 1.3TDS and 20.13 EY.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Intrigued by the flow rate. Could you upload a clip - would be helpful.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

What are you pour times again - bloom, etc?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Intrigued by the flow rate. Could you upload a clip - would be helpful.


Yup I could do that. Would you like to see that with the 1.7 grind? I can do another chemex later on either same or with a different setting.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> What are you pour times again - bloom, etc?


For that one I did 60g bloom, for 40 seconds. Then poured all the rest of the water in continuously so that full 500 was in, in less than 2 minutes (it was pretty close to the top at that point). Gave it a little surface stir once all water in and then a tap.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

With a 20.13% EY, you're in the zone. My preference is around 19%. At that yield, I get buckets of strawberry/boozy fruit - sweet and good mouthfeel.

One thing - what temp are you drinking at? Ideally, not above 55c. As it cools, the flavours come out more and the body develops.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> For that one I did 60g bloom, for 40 seconds. Then poured all the rest of the water in continuously so that full 500 was in, in less than 2 minutes (it was pretty close to the top at that point). Gave it a little surface stir once all water in and then a tap.


Try 50grms and bloom for exactly 30secs. At 30 secs top up to 250grms with circular pours going to the edges but not pouring beyond, i.e. just on to the paper. Should be up to 250grms by 50-55secs. At 1min 15secs, begin to pour remaining water and aim to have all 500grms in by 1min 45sec. Lightly stir surface a few times - don't put the paddle deep into the slurry. Tap the Chemex down on worktop to settle grinds which should produce a nice even bed. Bed should be clear of water by around 3mins 30secs.

My brew water temp for Rocky Mountain is 94c.

Heat the Chemex with the filter paper in it immediately before you start your brew. Chemex leaches heat alarmingly. Even with pre-heating, you will struggle to get the slurry temp above 90c so it's vital not to leave the Chemex for even a minute or two after you've heated it to begin your brew.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> With a 20.13% EY, you're in the zone. My preference is around 19%. At that yield, I get buckets of strawberry/boozy fruit - sweet and good mouthfeel.
> 
> One thing - what temp are you drinking at? Ideally, not above 55c. As it cools, the flavours come out more and the body develops.


I'm not exactly sure what temp it was but had tried a variety, some probably cooler than that. I'll use the thermopen next time to keep an eye on it. The hausgrind one was a definite improvement, I just think I have a lot more to find there . I'll do a vid of the 1.7 grind and play around a bit with the setting to see how it goes later on.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Good.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Yes, i do a 30g/0.5ltr brew every morning at work, i enjoy it, but its down to what you enjoy, try it!
> 
> Back on to the brewed grinder bit though, how much you would want to spend for the ultimate, last time purchase?


I completely missed this in the thread. OK will try 30g / 0.5ltr, that's cool. also now having seen Gary's advice with the paper (on the other thread).

For ultimate brewed experience, I was considering going up to about £600.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

your presico might need to be recalibrated to go finer. But ignore the numbers on the grinder (they are using a darker roast and different water) , keep going finer until you hit the extraction yield youre looking for. Your problem is under extraction .

The burr set (when in the maestro+) was compared by David Walsh of marco and held in similar regard to a Malhkonig Tanzania!


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> your presico might need to be recalibrated to go finer. But ignore the numbers on the grinder (they are using a darker roast and different water) , keep going finer until you hit the extraction yield youre looking for. Your problem is under extraction .
> 
> The burr set (when in the maestro+) was compared by David Walsh of marco and held in similar regard to a Malhkonig Tanzania!


Did the recalibration today, set it just past the middle (so I still have more to play with later if needed) and visually it made a huge difference in the first grind afterwards. It was a lot finer than it would have been before (which is of course the point) even though I backed it off a little and it also looked a LOT more consistent. The results with the chemex weren't amazing but I'll go away and play with the grind and see what I get over the weekend, as long as it adjusts OK from here, then I'll be very happy!

I had 1.2 TDS and 18.58 EY.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jlarkin said:


> Did the recalibration today, set it just past the middle (so I still have more to play with later if needed) and visually it made a huge difference in the first grind afterwards. It was a lot finer than it would have been before (which is of course the point) even though I backed it off a little and it also looked a LOT more consistent. The results with the chemex weren't amazing but I'll go away and play with the grind and see what I get over the weekend, as long as it adjusts OK from here, then I'll be very happy!
> 
> I had 1.2 TDS and 18.58 EY.


Encouraging

Grind a bit finer , push the tds and ey up at the same time and head for tasty times....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jlarkin said:


> Did the recalibration today, set it just past the middle (so I still have more to play with later if needed) and visually it made a huge difference in the first grind afterwards. It was a lot finer than it would have been before (which is of course the point) even though I backed it off a little and it also looked a LOT more consistent. The results with the chemex weren't amazing but I'll go away and play with the grind and see what I get over the weekend, as long as it adjusts OK from here, then I'll be very happy!
> 
> I had 1.2 TDS and 18.58 EY.


Tasty begins at 19% IMO


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