# Light roasts with Bambino Plus?



## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

I've heard from a few different reviewers/users that the Bambino Plus isn't going to do well with light roasts, but it's unclear to me why, or what I'd be looking for?

Is it the inability to change the temperature? Lack of pressure? The 54mm (rather than 58mm) basket? Something else?

I've been learning how to make espresso with one, and I've been sticking with medium/dark roasts for now (if only to make it easier to dial in!), but I'd like to understand what exactly I'd be looking for in order to be able to say "uh oh, this is too light a roast"?

Thanks in advance!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pphaneuf The problem is likely to be temperature, and the inability to get it hot enough.

Welcome to the forum.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Please see my posts on exactly why this is - quite recent too. Not got time to repost again here though can later if you can't find


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/50287-bambino-plus-leaking/?do=findComment&comment=834468


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'd suggest that the OP does what I suggested in the same post. Make 3 drinks on the trot as you would normally do them. Taste - any difference then the thermojet probably has similar / same problems as the thermocoil. The shots do need to be reasonably consistent dose, ratio and time wise or the taste will change anyway.

Then try one of the methods of preheating I suggested but don't flush after doing them, just pull the shot.  My favourite one is a short shot through an empty pressurised basket for obvious reasons but the steam first should work too. That should just need doing until the pump starts pulsing.

If some one said choice of grinder did have an effect on light roast beans I would be inclined to agree. Like the BE I would suspect these machines prefer longer shot times than usual. I'd suggest trying up to high 30's.  More to look at yes but it's a find how to use your gear approach rather than assuming an upgrade will cure all.

Shorter times can be tried as well. That may prove interesting on beans with a stronger taste. Might even get things down to cupping levels of extraction.

Bean storage can make a difference as well. A light roast I used recently benefited from a few days in a vented bean can. Rather than having a rather strong noticeable smell things went more subtle. Leaving them in the vented bag they came in didn't achieve that. I suppose the same thing could be done with an airscape by leaving the seal open.


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

Thanks for the responses!

The consensus seems to be that temperature is the limiting factor here. I've been using mostly medium roasts, and based on the tips here, I've found that running the steam wand until it goes from liquid to steam (just a few seconds) seems to make my result more consistent.

I was also wondering what would I see happen if I tried to use a roast that is "too light for the Bambino"? Would the flavour merely not come out well (not getting the best out of the beans)? Or would I get genuinely bad results (undrinkable)?

While I do plan to upgrade, I'd do so in only about a year, and until then, I'm just trying to learn to work within the machine's envelope (got some good tips here, thanks!), but critically, to also learn to identify whether the problem is that my beans are roasted too light (in which case the "solution" might simply be "don't buy those beans again"! 😂), or something else (likely my grinds prep!) that I could do something about by improving my technique.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pphaneuf It's quite likely (as I have a Solis, almost identical to the Babino), that you would be better of with medium and medium dark beans. Certainly that's what I found with the Solis.

I think if you want to explore the full range of roasting styles and really play with temperature, you need to move into dual boiler territory.


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

@DavecUK Yes, I'm having Monmouth's Finca Tinajay at the moment (which they describe as medium roast), and it seems a bit on the acidic side, a lot of the time, so probably under-extracted (17g in, 37g out in 30s, will try going one notch finer on the grinder for the next shot)?

I realise I'm likely to be sticking to medium and medium dark, but I guess my question is how do I distinguish between whether I got some beans that aren't roasted enough (and that I should just have the rest of the bag with another brew method), or when I should be trying to tweak my grinder finer and work harder on my distribution, you know?

I have a feeling that a Lelit Elizabeth might turn up on my kitchen counter at some point, but I'm giving myself some time to learn the basics better first! 🙂


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@pphaneuf Frogs n Toads....although colour is a clue...look at surface texture and "plumpness". Go for frogs

Toads










Frogs


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

DavecUK said:


> @pphaneuf Frogs n Toads....although colour is a clue...look at surface texture and "plumpness". Go for frogs
> 
> Toads


 I really hope this is an illustration of the yellowing stage and not an finished roast.



ajohn said:


> Shorter times can be tried as well. That may prove interesting on beans with a stronger taste. Might even get things down to cupping levels of extraction.


 Cupping extractions are normal i.e around 20% or more. Otherwise the process would be pointless.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Rob1 said:


> Cupping extractions are normal i.e around 20% or more. Otherwise the process would be pointless.


 They're usually a bit lower than percolation extractions & have a different calculation, based on total brew water weight, that 'normalises' the extraction figure that is output.

Cupping is a quick, practical, (generally) non extraction related exercise. You can fine tune it in your own environment/grind/steep time.

Extraction can't always spot under-developed roasts either, roasts where flavour is not developed can still be soluble & compare to tasty roasts, or be higher extraction than developed roasts from less soluble origins.


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

@DavecUK Thanks for the visual guidance!

What can I expect to happen if I did get some light roast and ran it in my Bambino? Under-extraction, sourness? Something else?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pphaneuf said:


> @DavecUK Thanks for the visual guidance!
> 
> What can I expect to happen if I did get some light roast and ran it in my Bambino? Under-extraction, sourness? Something else?


 Expect to run a longer & weaker shot to tone down the acidity. I'll run a typical espresso blend to 1:2.5 to 1:3.5, but more like 1:4 to 1:6 for a filter roast in my DTP.

Sourness is usually a brew parameter malfunction, rather than a machine/grinder malfunction.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The bean I referred to was this one only I recollect they also did a medium roast. Chocolate has been added and probably relates to in milk drinks.

https://www.redber.co.uk/collections/all-single-origin-coffees/products/sumatra-mandheling-dark-roast

Brewed conventionally on an espresso machine and I don't think anyone will get the cupping notes unless they brew extremely weakly some how. Another technique similar to what @MWJB just mentioned can also be used. Coarser grind and usual ratios go out of the window.

Another one but light roast I brewed recently gives lychee and mandarin. Also white sugar - more of an effect on the lychee taste. That one I feel could be brewed strong and still work but in my view is easier to appreciate weaker. The mandarin taste is flat like the fruit is over ripe but that can be balanced a bit by allowing some acidity.

This is in an americano  a rather well watered down espresso - I've no idea what dilutions espresso drinkers use but do know they may add water to open up flavours.

A single may be too small and a double basket too large. I do see that as a problem on Sage's small basket machines. It's one of the reasons I switched to a DB but I did modify a La Spaz basket that held something in between them.

HU burrs out of interest and the lychee bean. That seemed to have gone. Mandarin left but very flat tasting. Acidity - what acidity. Maybe be a Solo effect as the bean gummed it up but don't thinks so. It managed 1/2 dozen shots. Niche - if anything more constant levels of acidity with ratio variations.


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Expect to run a longer & weaker shot to tone down the acidity. I'll run a typical espresso blend to 1:2.5 to 1:3.5, but more like 1:4 to 1:6 for a filter roast in my DTP.
> 
> Sourness is usually a brew parameter malfunction, rather than a machine/grinder malfunction.


 I was just thinking of stretching my recipe a bit from 1:2.2 to maybe 1:2.5 for the medium roast I'm using now, but... 1:4 to 1:6! That's *very* lungo... 😂

Sourness is kind of "too much acidity", isn't it? It just seems that I might be able to get some coffee brewed from a light roast in this machine, and it might even be delicious, but at that point, it might just not be espresso?

Alright, that sounds acceptable: I'd be looking out for acidity, and if I've got a bean that's just a bit on the light side of medium, that's one way I could try to make the best of it with the tools I have, thanks!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pphaneuf said:


> I was just thinking of stretching my recipe a bit from 1:2.2 to maybe 1:2.5 for the medium roast I'm using now, but... 1:4 to 1:6! That's *very* lungo... 😂
> 
> Sourness is kind of "too much acidity", isn't it? It just seems that I might be able to get some coffee brewed from a light roast in this machine, and it might even be delicious, but at that point, it might just not be espresso?
> 
> Alright, that sounds acceptable: I'd be looking out for acidity, and if I've got a bean that's just a bit on the light side of medium, that's one way I could try to make the best of it with the tools I have, thanks!


 There's no definition of a lungo, they're all pretty vague. Historically espresso has had a range of ratios. There are even longer drinks like the Belgian traditionnelle & Swiss cafe crema, closer to filter strength.

If it's pressurised percolation, out of an espresso machine, then it's espresso...almost everyone has their own idea of what it is (roast, ratio, pressure, how the pour looks), don't get hung up on semantics, focus on making something you enjoy.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pphaneuf said:


> Sourness is kind of "too much acidity", isn't it?


 Maybe, maybe not. If you get a coffee with note of rhubarb, grapefruit, orange, cranberry, raspberry, you expect acidity without it being unpleasant (otherwise, why would you buy the coffee in the first place?). So the terms may overlap. But if the coffee makes your mouth pucker & is tart/sharp, I think most people would want to avoid that.

You can make any coffee sour by under-extracting it, which is a fault that can be fixed. But even at a good extraction, you are amplifying the attributes of the coffee...so a bright coffee might be pleasant at 1:4 or 1:5, but a bit overpowering at 1:3 at a similar extraction. (I don't make Americanos, I just brew at a strength that I enjoy that particular coffee at, without any extra steps.)

So, a typical roast may only be sour due to under-extraction. But a bright coffee might be extracted OK and still overly acidic at high concentration (short ratio).


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

MWJB said:


> There's no definition of a lungo, they're all pretty vague. Historically espresso has had a range of ratios. There are even longer drinks like the Belgian traditionnelle & Swiss cafe crema, closer to filter strength.
> 
> If it's pressurised percolation, out of an espresso machine, then it's espresso...almost everyone has their own idea of what it is (roast, ratio, pressure, how the pour looks), don't get hung up on semantics, focus on making something you enjoy. 🙂


 Right, I didn't mean "espresso" so much as "normale" (and certainly not "ristretto"!)... And these aren't really defined, so I totally agree with you on this, if I like drinking what's coming out, I'm good! 🙂


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Maybe, maybe not. If you get a coffee with note of rhubarb, grapefruit, orange, cranberry, raspberry, you expect acidity without it being unpleasant (otherwise, why would you buy the coffee in the first place?). So the terms may overlap. But if the coffee makes your mouth pucker & is tart/sharp, I think most people would want to avoid that.


 I think that's what I meant, some things have acidity, it's supposed to be that way, and it's expected, but if you're getting acidity where it's unexpected/unwanted, uglier words like "sour" might come out.



MWJB said:


> You can make any coffee sour by under-extracting it, which is a fault that can be fixed. But even at a good extraction, you are amplifying the attributes of the coffee...so a bright coffee might be pleasant at 1:4 or 1:5, but a bit overpowering at 1:3 at a similar extraction. (I don't make Americanos, I just brew at a strength that I enjoy that particular coffee at, without any extra steps.)
> 
> So, a typical roast may only be sour due to under-extraction. But a bright coffee might be extracted OK and still overly acidic at high concentration (short ratio).


 Sounds like this is something that I'll have to find my own preferences on, which, I'll be honest, I don't quite know yet! I just got this machine a bit more than two months ago, and I've previously had little to say on the beans used in the espresso drinks I was having, since I was getting them from cafés, and they'll usually run some "standard" medium-dark to dark blend for espresso... People keep saying "the coffee journey" for a reason, right? 😂


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## 08390754 (Dec 6, 2020)

You can definitely make nice espresso with light roasts using the Bambino plus. My impression is that the quality is a bit lower than other machines, but still very good. In the James Hoffman video he noted that the Bambino needed a coarser grind than other machines, and I suspect this may result in lower surface area and maybe lower tds in the cup? A friend advised me to use lower doses (~14g) because of the 54mm basket, and therefore grind finer. I haven't tested it out but may be worth trying. I hadn't realised about the water temperature but will definitely try that from now on.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

08390754 said:


> My impression is that the quality is a bit lower than other machines, but still very good. In the James Hoffman video he noted that the Bambino needed a coarser grind than other machines, and I suspect this may result in lower surface area and maybe lower tds in the cup?


 This doesn't make any sense, You can't extract surface area. You can increase TDS and still have a bad flavour. If the Bambino can't use a grind to achieve a normal extraction for your grinder, it can't still make "very good" shots because they'll all be under-extracted. Then you'd have to aim purposefully low & pull 10-15s shots to avoid sourness, I'm not sure that's what Hoffmann was suggesting.

We're more concerned with extraction, than TDS, as TDS is not a marker of quality outside of brew ratio.


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## 08390754 (Dec 6, 2020)

Thanks MWJB for clarifying. Hoffman just mentioned about the Bambino needing a coarser grind...the rest was my interpretation of what the implications of that were, which I obviously didn't quite get right. I'd really value your thoughts on where I've gone wrong in my thinking. I've spelled out my thinking below (sorry if it's excessive), and any pointers would be welcomed.

I thought finer grinds did two things, a) slowed down the rate of flow, and B) provided more surface area, both of which increase extraction. I assumed that because the bambino filter basket is a different shape (more narrow and higher) than traditional 58mm that this would have an impact on how coffee is extracted; and because the coffee is stacked slightly higher, this means the water has more coffee to pass through. I assumed this is why Hoffman dialled in a coarser grind than for other machines, because the increased depth of filter basket restricts flow rate. My understanding is that different flavours extract at different rates from ground coffee (acidic and sourness first, then sweetness, then bitterness last). Because of the coarser grind, some of the sweet flavours may not be as well extracted as they should be from the Bambino and the shot can taste a little empty. Its not unpleasant or salty like a bad extraction, but just lacking a bit of flavour. By reducing the dose and tightening the grind, it maintains the flow rate at a constant but I assumed that the additional surface area allows for more of the sweet flavours to be extracted into the cup, and improves the flavour. I'm aware that I've made quite a few assumptions and never actually spelled them out on a page but just thought them in my head, so any corrective feedback would be really helpful.

I regularly use the Bambino with light roasts, and while the shots aren't as good as in a prosumer machine, they are certainly very enjoyable. They don't taste under extracted in the sense of the shot tasting salty or sour, but the shots don't quite have the same intensity of flavour that other machines give.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

08390754 said:


> I thought finer grinds did two things, a) slowed down the rate of flow, and B) provided more surface area, both of which increase extraction. I assumed that because the bambino filter basket is a different shape (more narrow and higher) than traditional 58mm that this would have an impact on how coffee is extracted; and because the coffee is stacked slightly higher, this means the water has more coffee to pass through. I assumed this is why Hoffman dialled in a coarser grind than for other machines, because the increased depth of filter basket restricts flow rate.


 Sure, a lot of concepts get discussed as if they are known quantities, but usually, they are oft repeated common misconceptions/received wisdom.

Yes, finer grinds (for a given grinder) tend to slow the flow, but for a different bean the flow may speed up & still give a higher extraction. Grinding finer indeed reveals more surface area for the same grinder, but differing grinders have different grind distribution characteristics which, in turn, affect average grind size & surface area at that grind size. We can't easily see the surface area (takes laser diffraction) but we can easily see grinder type & setting (coarser/finer)...so these are the more intuitive parameters to talk about.

Surface area of ground coffee is the surface area of the cellulose matrix that contains the solute, not the surface area of the solute itself (as is more often the case in chemistry extractions).

I don't know that there is any evidence that 54mm baskets inhabit a different region of interest of extraction. I don't see that with my Sage DTP. Maybe the grind needs to be coarser to offset the deeper bed depth, I don't know for sure, but you're not looking for something significantly different.



08390754 said:


> By reducing the dose and tightening the grind, it maintains the flow rate at a constant but I assumed that the additional surface area allows for more of the sweet flavours to be extracted into the cup, and improves the flavour.


 I haven't experienced, or seen demonstrated, that reducing dose (from nominal for a specific basket) does anything beneficial to extraction. If Hoffmann, or anyone else knew what the effect was, it would be a simple cases of stating it. Yet, no one has.

Sweet flavours, if present at all, can be accessed either at very low extractions (12-14%EY) or in the big hump with more clarity (17-23% depending on origin). Of course, not all coffees are sweet, or have potential for sweetness and acidity can influence the perception of sweetness...in fact it has to, because there's next to no sucrose in roasted coffee, but loads of acids.

"Flow rate", has very little to do with anything espresso. Extraction and ratio, combined with grind setting do. Flow rate isn't really a universal parameter or standard unit, it's a thing people talk about as having some meaning, but never actually quantify or offer as a diagnostic. This is because it's just a byproduct of ratio & brew time, but time doesn't brew percolated coffee (only immersion where there is no percolation) - grind setting & ratio do...it just takes time to happen. The grind is doing the work. Stick espresso grind in a cup, pour water on it...the Sun will expand and fry planet Earth before that cup of coffee over-extracts. 



08390754 said:


> I regularly use the Bambino with light roasts, and while the shots aren't as good as in a prosumer machine, they are certainly very enjoyable. They don't taste under extracted in the sense of the shot tasting salty or sour, but the shots don't quite have the same intensity of flavour that other machines give.


 Sure, maybe you have to brew a little longer/weaker to get the extraction in range & lose a bit of intensity. I assume you're talking about other/prosumer machines with the same coffee, grinder & ratio?


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## 08390754 (Dec 6, 2020)

Hi MWJB, thank you so much for taking the time to explain that to me. That is extremely helpful and helps me to challenge my assumptions and get a better understanding of what's going on. In particular your points about time are extremely helpful because up to now I've placed a lot of importance on time.

Yes I was talking about prosumer machines giving a better taste than the Bambino when using the same grind and ratio. Its just dawned on me that there were different grinders, which likely influenced taste also. I had attributed the difference to the Bambino because both grinders are very good and because Hoffman reported something similar about Bambino, but on second thoughts I didn't control for grinders so I can't really say. But, to answer OP, I can say that the Bambino can make nice light roasts espresso.


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

08390754 said:


> But, to answer OP, I can say that the Bambino can make nice light roasts espresso.


 Interesting discussion, bringing some deeper understanding on the process for me, thanks! I'll give the light roasts a chance at some point, but I'll need a bit more experience under my belt first. 🙂


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## HomeEspressoNovice (Nov 9, 2021)

Hi all, this is really interesting for me as I too have a recently purchased Bambino Plus and also seem to have a preference for lighter roasts when making a flat white. I'm a bit bamboozled by the jargon in the thread, to be honest, and was hoping to ask for a bit of easy rule of thumb stuff to get me through the learning curve!

Currently using an Extract roast, darker but my wife loves it, and putting in around 17g for a double shot, manually stopping it when for between 38-40ml worth of output. Does that sound about right?

The crema is still a bit watery but it's taking a few seconds to start pouring from the portafilter, is it worth dialling down my grind a bit more? The coffee still tastes good, I have convinced myself I've detected the black cherry referred to in the tasting notes.

For lighter roasts, I'm thinking that running the steam wand - I'd not considered that - as well as a single shot through the basket I'm going to use will ensure all is hot. The sour note is also going to work well with the milk is my guess.

Any and all comments welcome!


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

They recommend using 18-22g in the double basket -I am fairly sure I've seen it suggested that 19g is the optimum dose for the Bambino on their website in the past - I dose 19g on mine. Might be worth trying a slightly higher dose to see if it makes any difference.

I love Extract beans - what are you using at the moment - is is the new Inner Strength ones?


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## pphaneuf (Apr 20, 2021)

With lighter roasts, keeping the amount of "work" down with a lower dose, like 17g in for 38-40g (note, grams, rather than millilitres!) in about 25 seconds, that sounds alright. I like to use as much pre-infusion as the machine will allow, holding the button down until you hear the pump change noise (about 8-10 seconds?).

I know they suggest higher doses, but I've had very good results with just 18g of medium roast.

Don't worry too much about the crema, it's produced at espresso brewing pressures, but it's not especially desirable, taste-wise, so just focus on the taste of the coffee!


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## HomeEspressoNovice (Nov 9, 2021)

Thank you, both, that's really reassuring! Sounds like I'm on the right track. And to note: I'm using Extract's Cast Iron roast. First purchased to counter the lack of flat white at home during lockdown one, armed with an aeropress!, and fallen down quite the rabbit hole since then


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