# Hi building some knowledge before taking the plunge



## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

So, I mainly drink espresso, the wife latte, we have made do at home with a 6 cup bialetti for a while, but I have a hankering for some proper coffee at home after having a double hand pulled from a guy in Citroen van (tarte au criteon) using some Kafka beans which completely changed my view of what coffee can be. There was so much flavour going on that it just shocked me, from the usual assault of a strong double to get my caffeine fix, this was just an explosion of fruits and aromas I wasn't expecting.

So after are week or so reading the resources on here, a public hello to all and here are 3 questions as a opening salvo.

I can see that getting similar result is a journey and not necessarily achievable on a budget, so if my budget stretches to pairing up a gaggia classic and a mc2 or mignon how close can I get with some patience and willingness to learn and experiment?

secondly I have seen that a brand new gaggia is not necessarily as desirable as second hand one, so is there a resource to work out the best version to get?

and lastly is there someone on here who can recondition/mod it and get it in tip top shape?


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

It would help if you were to disclose your budget ...at least the budget for machine and grinder together with that set aside for possible reconditioning, then we could perhaps talk in more detail about your options


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

Cheers grumpydaddy, good question £350-£450 (but not set in stone) not sure whether to go with an already sorted gaggia classic from here or get one from eBay and get it fixed up, I have zero spanner skills so not sure best approach, with regards to grinder new mc2 or 2nd hand mignon seems to be the way forward to start but open to consider other options


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Second hand Mignon is preferable to MC2.


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

How often do mignons come up on here? I don't see any on the sales threads at the moment.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Pop up from time to time but usually sell pretty quickly.


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## xooch (May 27, 2015)

Oneds said:


> How often do mignons come up on here? I don't see any on the sales threads at the moment.


Seems like the best way to find one is to post in wanted, luring those out that aren't heavily used - rather than hoping for one to crop up in sales


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

xooch said:


> Seems like the best way to find one is to post in wanted, luring those out that aren't heavily used - rather than hoping for one to crop up in sales


Good advice - I wasn't ready to sell my Mignon but responded to a wanted thread. As for a Classic, I bought a pre-Philips Classic from a Forum member, which I understood to be far superior to more recent versions, partly because of the larger size of the solenoid, and to answer your first question, it is a good combination to make enjoyable espressos at home. Mark, at gaggiamanualservice, is a Forum member, regularly offers Classics on the Forum that he he has lovingly restored, and it would be worth getting in touch with him. A new or close to it Mignon and a restored Classic should be within your price range - although remember the other bits and pieces that you will need, including decent tamper, scales, and a timer.


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

If you browse the for sale thread (you might have done this) you will get a good sense of the Classics that come up - including by Mark. His latest are epic but only if you support Liverpool

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?24466-Football-classic

and an example of a non-football one:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?23949-Gaggia-classic-with-wand-and-solenoid-upgrade


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

Thanks everyone, sadly not an LFC fan ;-) and a themed classic not sure that would pass the wife's kitchen art test.

I probably post in the wanted section in a couple weeks for a mignon then, if anything I can experiment with that on the bialetti before I go for a gaggia.

58mm tamper & knockbox I have, so extras as far as I was aware was

Scales

Timer

An unpressurised double portafilter if not included with the classic

Blank for back flushing

Milk jug and thermometer

Anything else? is there any special cleaning implements I'll need for the grinder?

And a whole heap of beans, Currently we get through a bag of Lavazza (Espresso, Crema Gusto or Kafa) in the bialetti a week, I'm assuming this will go up, so do many stick with a single preference or go for a mixed-up surprise subscription?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

One thing to think about: if you buy what we would call entry level kit( and yes, you can produce a really good shot, but not consistently good shots due to machine limitations) then you may well wish to upgrade to something higher up the ladder pretty quickly


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

Upgraditis is always strong, but one first has to pass the laborious task of gaining buy-in from the Chief Financial Officer, whereas many smaller purchases can often be written off without seeking ultimate level approval, rather than single large ones which always raise eyebrows and require further justification ;-)


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

£450 will get you a pre owned classic from here, plenty of them pop up, you will then have enough left for a new Mignon and some bits, only issue is when you do upgrade, if you do that is, then the mignon will lose a little, better to buy pre owned but as you already know they do not pop up often.

Be cautious of buying from Ebay on the classic, you could get as deal, i did, but you could get a lemon that requires more money spending on it depending on how it has been used.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Eureka-Mignon-MCI-White-Coffee-Grinder-/321771834525?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item4aeb188c9d


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'll be putting a classic with some bits up this weekend


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> I'll be putting a classic with some bits up this weekend


There you are *Oneds*, get in now as I do believe this wont last long.

Infact it wouldn't surprise me if someone now asks for second dibs on it if you don't.


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

I'll be taking the plunge in July.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Oneds said:


> I'll be taking the plunge in July.


GO FOR IT:good:


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

There's a £50 posted MC2 and an £80 collected Classic on here at the mo.

If you bought them both you could use them for a year and make a profit!


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

Sorry probably a really stupid question, portafilters are they all the same standard fit? What makes one better than another? What would you get for a classic to learn with? What is the difference between a pressurised and non-pressurised? done a quick search and Google with out finding the answers so probably missing something in the terminology. Cheers


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Portafilters are usually specific to the machine or group. So a Gaggia portafilter won't fit the E61 machines and vice versa.

A machine will come with the relevant portafilter supplied by the manufacturer. This will usually have one or two spouts.

Be aware that most people tend to pull a double (eg the full contents of a double basket, say 18g) into one drink. A popular start point for brew ratio is 18g of coffee in a double basket, pulled for around 30 seconds and yielding 36g of espresso. That is not a lot of liquid so hardly worth splitting between 2. Note also that there are single, double and triple baskets. Singles are notoriously difficult to use, and often have funny shaped sides that make tamping tricky. Plus the small quantities involved make prep much more critical.

Some people use a naked (aka bottomless) portafilter which allows you to see the extraction and potentially diagnose problems with tamp and distribution. The only "downside' is that you then cannot split the shot obviously, and that any channeling will give rise to 'spritzes' that squirt coffee everywhere.

Baskets are usually non-pressurised. Home machines like the Classic are often supplied with pressurised baskets because the manufacturer expects that you might use stale old supermarket coffee that was ground too coarse, too long ago. These just hide the problems and will stop you from being able to dial in using shot run time to set your grind level. You can tell a pressurised basket because it usually has some kind of 'widget' in it or a false bottom. A normal basket just has a large number of tiny holes across the entire bottom surface. They come in ridged and ridgeless. All this means is that some have a ridge which is gripped by the wire spring in the portafilter. This can make getting the basket in and out rather more difficult. Baskets are designed to hold a particular dose. For example, a VST 18g precision basket works best with between 17 and 19g dose. You need some headroom but not too much or the bed will fracture and your shot will go to cock.

Hope that helps.


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

That's fantastic, so unless the gaggia I buy has one, a bottomless gaggia portafilter and a double or triple basket will show-up if there are issues, and a double spout is useful for splitting in to two, a single then is just to stop any problems pissing the shot all over the place. Oh and don't put too little coffee in the basket or all hell will break loose!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yes. Spouts prevent coffee from going everywhere. Your Classic will almost certainly come with a portafilter of some sort even if you buy it used. If you buy it off the forum then the pressurised baskets will probably have been binned long ago. Sometimes people buy a naked PF and then lose the original but if you get lucky you'll get one that has maybe a naked, the original, and maybe even a VST basket. Try to use the correct dose for the basket, probably don't bother with a single basket.

If you want a naked PF and your machine doesn't have one you can get them from various suppliers such as Bella Barista or Happy Donkey for about £25 I think.

What you're ideally looking for when using a naked is:

-The extraction starts pretty much evenly across the whole surface.

- first drops roughly 5 seconds from hitting the switch

-no dry spots

-a nice central tail, maybe with some 'tiger stripes'

If your basket dosing/prep has problems you will more likely get:

- watery bits coming through around the edge if your tamping hasn't sealed the edges.

- small jets of water that I call 'Kaldi's arrows' which indicate that water is finding an easy path through the puck and causing underextracted sour coffee to squirt you in the eye

- dry spots that may mean too much coffee for the basket, too hard or uneven a tamping, or too fine a grind (or all of the above)

-if your first drops take 20 seconds to come out then too fine or too much coffee for the basket.

- if you get a gush of light coloured coffee and you get 60g liquid in 10 seconds then the grind is way too coarse, you under-dosed ridiculously or someone switched your nice freshly ground coffee for supermarket pre-ground while you were filling your milk jug.

I now await disagreement from various more experienced experts (which I am not) but that should at least give you an idea of how a naked PF helps with diagnosing shot problems.


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

thanks I'll make sure if it doesn't come with it, I'll get a bottomless and vst basket.

Actually I'll buy an 18g vst basket as even if it does come with one, nice to have a new one and start the collection early!! First upgrade and I don't even have a machine or grinder yet


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

You don't necessarily have to have a VST. They can take a little more practice to get right but when you do get them right there's more flavour and sweetness there. Try whatever basket it comes with. Once you're happy with that maybe get a VST if you want. I'm not sure there is any reason why a new one is better than used - unless damaged during knock-out they don't really wear out (afaik). Better to make sure you have a decent well-fitting metal tamper and a stock basket than a plastic tamper and 2 VSTs!


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

Oh well ordered now, I'm sure it won't go to waste. You'd recommend a 58.35 knock tamp then to go with it?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yeah but be aware MBK take an age to ship and almost zero communication. Also worth exploring other sources, although I'm happy with my knock, but Coffee Chap can supply Torr tampers which are also very good (some are $$$ but you don't have to go nuts and get a titanium 58.55 to go with a Classic)


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

Any view on this tamp I have 57mm so that's not going to work to well as far as I can see?

http://www.machina-espresso.co.uk/products/machina-58-35mm-wood-polished-steel-pro-tamper-beech


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

I have the knock tamper and it's slack in the 18g VST. However, last time I checked the inside diameter of my basket was 58.55 as I recall. Not sure if it is outside the usual limits of their manufacturing process as VST recommend a 58.3-58.4mm tamper. I'll need to take it into work and check it with a teaser gauge again.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

You can make do with a 57 if you already have one, but if you don't, try to get something between 58.3-58.5 because a 57 will feel sloppy in the basket, so you'll find out doesn't seal the edges as well as a proper fitting one. You can work round it by tamping up-down-left-right but after a while you'll get bored and buy a new one.


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

Just by way of an update, Gaggia Classic delivered today from Mark, thanks. MBK 585 tamper to go with VST 18g basket & bottomless portafilter, some Andrew James jugs and thermometer too, plus a timer and a couple of micro digital scales, I have a handground on pre-order not sure what to do between now and then. Already have some cups and latte glasses.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

You need to stashing those pennies for a grinder, the manual route is something lots of people go down, then they get sick of it and buy an electric grinder.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Super jolly for a little over £200 ?

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?24261-ECM-Mechanika-IV-(%A3800)-Mazzer-SJ-(%A3200)-and-accessories


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

Birthday in August might get myself a mignon from my better half. P


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Judging by the budget you had earlier a Super Jolly is well within reach. As froggy has pointed out, these regularly crop up around the £200 mark and are a common upgrade from the Mignon for many people.


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## Oneds (Jun 4, 2015)

At the moment in total I'm in for about £330 with the classic and ancillaries, including a potentially an inappropriately pre-ordered homeground, I need to save some pennies to have a chance at a £200+ grinder. However very happy with first results but need to find a finer pre-ground to test on. I will get a grinder it's just a question of when.


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