# So, why is it then......



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

that some professional baristas think you do not need to tamp, and others come up with some ritual that they consider important. presumably the difference is the former are concerned with making coffee and the latter promoting themselves with a stream of questionable directives.

Would the Spanish baristas really not tamp if they they though the end result was below standard?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

.......


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> .......


is that some form of code for specsavers workers?


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## MarkyP (Jan 10, 2013)

isn't it like most things, trends come and go...

tamp light vs tamp as hard as you can

nutate vs straight

preinfuse till dripping vs max 5 seconds

flat vs convex

We are constantly 'learning'... Just do what is tasty!

I must admit I do follow these trends, but normally because they make a positive difference in the cup.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Because they like it that way.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> is that some form of code for specsavers workers?


I typed a reply but I just don't have the same world weary view of baristas as you , so it would become a pointless Debate to have . So i deleted it and I'll let others engage instead


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

tis a genuine question. I remember seeing spanish baristas 31 years ago on honeymoon doing this before I knew what coffee was. this is no fad. it is a genuine question. Why would someone making his living do something completely different to the knowledgeable few. I am not taking the piss...I am asking a question. if you have no answer fair enough, cos I do not


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

So the professional Spanish baristas you saw 31 years ago, before you knew what coffee was (but you seem to have known what tamping was?), outnumber the professional baristas that do tamp?

In the Balearics I have seen them tamp, albeit with the tampers fixed to dosers (which isn't that uncommon in European run cafes here).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> So the professional Spanish baristas you saw 31 years ago, before you knew what coffee was (but you seem to have known what tamping was?), outnumber the professional baristas that do tamp?
> 
> In the Balearics I have seen them tamp, albeit with the tampers fixed to dosers (which isn't that uncommon in European run cafes here).


I have seen videos many times of them not tamping. If you google it there is plenty off reference to it, indeed boots posted a video clip on the topic today. This is not the odd lazy barista I happened to stumble upon

http://www.freshcup.com/the-tamping-debate/


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I have seen videos many times of them not tamping. If you google it there is plenty off reference to it, indeed boots posted a video clip on the topic today. This is not the odd lazy barista I happened to stumble upon


Yes, but where are you getting the data on who is in the "knowledgeable few" & who is in the majority? You seem to be suggesting that fewer tamp than don't, start a poll see how many people here tamp? if you're convinced tamping has no benefit, then just stop.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Or play with it and report back.

I have no doubt that it's possible to make a good cuppa without tamping, my main questions would be about consistency. It's also possible to make a v60 without agitating the bloom (and many people do) but after measuring the two side by side I found more consistency in ensuring saturation and even flow - similar problems here too.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am just throwing something up for discussion. I am not advocating anything of the sort. If we cannot discuss things openly and in a balanced way, then whats the point?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> that some professional baristas think you do not need to tamp, and others come up with some ritual that they consider important. presumably the difference is the former are concerned with making coffee and the latter promoting themselves with a stream of questionable directives.
> 
> Would the Spanish baristas really not tamp if they they though the end result was below standard?


....and how was the coffee? Shit??

There are 3 ways of tamping. Using a handheld tamper. Using a fixed tamper. Using the group head to tamp the coffee down when locking in the pf. Each of these three neccesitates a progressively finer grind. Yeah u still see it in Italy where they grindc really fine and then just flatten the puck with a fixed tamper.

Which of the 3 would give the most consistent tamp? Is consistency important? Do different coffees have different amounts of leeway for getting an acceptable extraction?

I know what I think is the answer to each of these. If you don't have an answer I'd question your understanding of espresso extraction.

Where we might agree is that there is or perhaps was a massive amount of woo about the celebrity Barista world. Certain things become fashionable and are credited with making a difference in the cup, only to be discredited later. Do you see anybody tapping the pf anymore? Stockfleith move, anyone?

Pushing the boundaries of espresso is extremely recent in the history of espresso. This sort of stuff is normal in the development of technique. I used to take the piss out of it massively, but now I just view it as part of the evolution.

My knowledge, technical skill and attitude towards coffee has changed considerably over the last 10 years.(but not my taste)

Has yours?


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> tis a genuine question. I remember seeing *Vietnamese* baristas 31 years ago on honeymoon doing this before I knew what coffee was. this is no fad. it is a genuine question. Why would someone making his living do something completely different to the knowledgeable few. I am not taking the piss...I am asking a question. if you have no answer fair enough, cos I do not


you were never in 'nam you jive turkey


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Maybe that's just the way they roll.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> that some professional baristas think you do not need to tamp, and others come up with some ritual that they consider important. presumably the difference is the former are concerned with making coffee and the latter promoting themselves with a stream of questionable directives.
> 
> Would the Spanish baristas really not tamp if they they though the end result was below standard?


A lot of things can be the result of "spanish customs" (slight pun intended), convenience, blind faith, or simply to try and differentiate oneself from the rest. I don't think it's an easy question to answer. e.g the Spanish Baristas may not tamp because of some/all of the following


They cannot be arsed to do so, the coffee seems to come out OK and no one complains

That's how it's always been done

They can never find the tamper

They genuinely think it's better (blind faith)


Who can know without asking them

I remember once being served coffee by professional baristas at an event...I asked for an espresso and my 12s gusher was handed to me with a smile.....I said "your not really going to give me that are you", it was quietly pulled back the grind readjusted (twice) and after 2 more attempts a decent pour was produced. On the other machine/grinder their colleagues continued to happily pump out 12s gushers. Can anyone answer why they were happy to do this, as they were all properly trained professionals who knew exactly what they should be doing.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Why would someone making his living do something completely different to the knowledgeable few.


I am not sure whether you are naive, but reality is usually different from what you would be expecting!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Fevmeister said:


> you were never in 'nam you jive turkey


31 years ago in Nam! Surely Chuck Norris was there then, Still Missing in Action


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## Viernes (Dec 10, 2011)

Spanish baristas can't tamp. Is this the sequel of White men can't jump?

No, seriously. What are you talking about??

Spanish """baristas""", which 99% of time they are not baristas but waiters who push the coffee machine buttons, don't tamp or tamp very badly with the tamper fixed to the grinder because they don't even know what they do, and don't care about it. And most consumers have no idea of how a proper espresso should taste... So, there you have it, ignorance 1 + ignorance 2 = 0 Coffee


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Perhaps they were all bought up on levers like the la pavoni, with its narrow basket and pendant for fine grinding, and it's habit for them to grind really fine and just use the tamper to push the coffee on to place or let the shower head do it ?

or ... Perhaps they are fed up with people pushing convention on them so are rebelling against the coffee society.

or ... More sensibly ... Perhaps they have figured out that the more "rules" you have, like weighing beans, weighing final shot, timing the shot, timing the pre-infusion, heat of the brew group, brew temp, tamp pressure, clump distribution, tapping, mix of bottled water going in, temp of cup ...... Then the more chance of getting one of them wrong and ruining the perfect shot .... So by omitting all tamping procedure, they are creating a more consistant shot as you can't get "no tamping" wrong ... As long as they adjust the other variables accordingly or bin them


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How have you determined that you can't get "no tamping wrong"? The only references for no tamping in this thread are a video of a Slayer with soft preinfusion & the NS Aurelia with SRS preinfusion, that make it possible to pull a shot with no tamping, I can't see where anyone has said that these shots were more consistent than tamped, just that you get a hot brown drink that you may not spit out.

By eliminating the tamp, then adjusting other variables, or binning the shot, you haven't really reduced variables. Weighing dose & beverage, consistent tamp, leaves you with 2 variables - grind & brew ratio.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

I thought that the main aim was to create as consistent a shot as possible. Therefore, once you have made the required adjustments to fine tune, you are able to repeat the ideal process as many times as needed.

Therefore it must be about minimising the total variance involved in shot preparation.

Tamping may be additional factor, but let's assume that it has relatively low variance and it's inclusion significantly reduces the high variance of other factors, namely distribution and risk of channelling. It is therefore generally accepted as a good thing.

The whole argument of who does what, where and how is slightly pointless unless this is part of a drive to harmonise global coffee production.

I was once served a coffee at a guesthouse in Northern Ghana. Nescafe, hot water from the kitchen sink and a bit of evaporated milk. That was coffee to my host and it was actually quite tasty at the time.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

How have I determined it ... Simply if you don't tamp at all, you can't get the process of tamping wrong.

its possible to grind fine enough to not require squashing the grind down at exactly 50lbs of which if you get wrong alters your shot, allies channeling etc ... In fact it's arguable that the finer you grind, the less you need to tamp and the less you need to worry about that perfect tamp.

but

trying to get rid of air pockets in a no tamped dose is rather difficult ... The easiest way to do it is to squash it down a bit with ... Err a tamper, but then you are tamping lightly again .... The other way is to dose enough coffee in that the shower screen pushes it together ... Messy though and you are for ever cleaning the group and the back flush is filthy.


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## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

I was in Paris, at CDG Airport last week - and had a double espresso from the departures lounge in T2. The woman serving me (not sure whether 'Barista' would be a true reflection of her skills) ground directly into the portafilter and then slapped it into the machine... no tamping. I went with it, just to see what it was like.

Now, French espresso isn't great at the best of times - and my expectation levels were low... but having watched the pour (not gushing) I was actually surprised at how 'reasonable' it tasted. It wasn't good (never had a good espresso in France) but wasn't the worst I've ever tasted either.

My assumption was that they'd got a grind/workflow that produced 'reasonable' espresso but with one step (tamping) removed from the workflow process, and hence in a busy airport made life for them easier and quicker - and still delivered a result that your average consumer wouldn't complain about. Why do something that takes time and effort if you don't need to?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

h1udd said:


> How have I determined it ... Simply if you don't tamp at all, you can't get the process of tamping wrong.
> 
> its possible to grind fine enough to not require squashing the grind down at exactly 50lbs of which if you get wrong alters your shot, allies channeling etc ... In fact it's arguable that the finer you grind, the less you need to tamp and the less you need to worry about that perfect tamp.


But not tamping won't give a consistent result because different grinds/grinders/doses will distribute differently in the basket.

It's largely accepted, & there have been some tests to reinforce, that tamping within a reasonable range, rather than a specific force (I don't know where 50lbs comes from), makes little difference to extraction (but no figures for standard deviation across different forces). It's also known that, after a point, finer grinds work against extraction & it drops.

Can a non-tamped puck make a shot with a reasonable shot time? Sure, but read DFK's link to the end http://www.freshcup.com/the-tamping-debate/

What is the relationship between shot time & extraction? Not enough, if you're trying to be consistent.

It's still not established that "Spanish baristas don't tamp" either. I have seen them tamp. The espressos I have had there in regular cafes were commodity coffee, rarely bad, but rarely knockout, a high strike rate of solid shots (within the context of what's being offered), often improved with sugar.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

In the interests of science (and putting off other jobs), I have sacrificed myself to the coffee gods and have just pulled a shot without tamping. I got an Americano direct from the group without needing to trouble the hot water tap - 18>[email protected]" ! Into the bargain my white teeshirt also got a brown speckled redesign. As did the rest of the coffee corner.  

My statistically insignificant sample size of 1 will not stand up to too much scientific rigour but suffice it to say, I won't be selling my 58.35 MBK any time soon.

It tastes as you'd expect (at least, the first couple of sips did; ask the sink what he thought of the rest! )

These non-tamping heretics must have some real skill in not tamping to make something drinkable.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Mythos delivers exceptionally well into the pf. I, in the interests of science will try the same thing this afternoon.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Put your pinny on David! The untamped grounds from the 65E *looked* alright after I'd shaken them flat. The resulting Spritzerfest demonstrated otherwise!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The Mythos delivers exceptionally well into the pf. I, in the interests of science will try the same thing this afternoon.


Is it a 31yr old Spanish Mythos?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Is it a 31yr old Spanish Mythos?


Time will tell, but I hope not! HotMetal, you left too big a gap between the showrscreen and the grinds...


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

You should be able to pull shots without tamping (finer grind will probably be required), it's just that it creates a proper mess on the shower screen afterwards. At least that is what I've found so far...

T.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

^^^^ This .... its painfully easy to pull excellent shots without tamping, When I was trying it, I was getting far better looking results from the naked PF than I do with tamping and its consistent.

So why dont I do it all the time ?

the freaking mess. you need to dose wall above the edge of the basket so that the shower head comes in contact with it and evenly pushes it down, so you get a mess at the grinder to basket stage as you inevitabley spill a lot more, after the shot is pulled the grinds all over the shower head, it gets into the pf gasket channel, when you backlash it comes out as neat coffee for the first backflush .... grinding takes ages ..... you get a LOT more fines with the lighter beans so more mess in the cup.

Its just not worth it compared to a quicker grind with less mess and you get to use a cool tamper !

edit: just to add, I tried doing this in 2010 I think ? ... when someone on toomuchcoffee.com mentioned about the italians not tamping but using a finer grind ..... just been trying to find the thread, but I cant, so maybe it wasnt toomuchcoffee.com :S


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, watch the video. No camera tricks, tasted as good as usual

http://s1290.photobucket.com/user/dfk41/media/IMG_0750_zpsgfwtyqow.mp4.html


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yeah but look at the mess...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Yeah but look at the mess...


I wipe out the basket every shot anyway, so it is no big issue. It proves a point though, sort of


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Do it again and take a picture of the shower screen after?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

i have just wiped the shower screen with a tissue and I would guess that there was a very small amount of extra residue but barely noticeable


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I wipe out the basket every shot anyway, so it is no big issue. It proves a point though, sort of


It doesn't really, are you using a VST


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Cant get the video to work for some reason, what was the pour like, timing, dose?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> It doesn't really, are you using a VST


Don't follow the relevance of VST


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

froggystyle said:


> Cant get the video to work for some reason, what was the pour like, timing, dose?


Did not have enough hands to time it but it's about 26 seconds. Did not weigh in case it sprayed all over but to the eye it seemed about right


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

You didn't then


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

what would be helpful is to see your extraction using a bottomless portafilter, when I gave this a go earlier today I needed to updose and still found channelling all over the place


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

when is the raffle draw


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

coffeechap said:


> what would be helpful is to see your extraction using a bottomless portafilter, when I gave this a go earlier today I needed to updose and still found channelling all over the place


If I can find a naked,I will oblige


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I am up for this .... Not doing it now as I'll never get to sleep if I whack up the caffine ... But being unemployed atm it will give me a fun job to do tomorrow morning instead of going to work

i don't remember it causing excessive channeling, but I do remember having to massively updose


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Is it a 31yr old Spanish Mythos?


You may have just described the Hotmetalette (a few years ago lol!)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Time will tell, but I hope not! HotMetal, you left too big a gap between the showrscreen and the grinds...


Correct. I didn't updose enough (19g in an 18 vst is the limit, no?) Anyway yes it was a moment of coffee muppetry but it sounded like more fun than cleaning my bike. ..


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Ok, gym, take kiddy to school, then make mess of my shower screen .... Although I feel it's cheating because I am still going to tamp .... Albeit with the shower screen due to updosing. So should this thread be about why the Spanish tamp with their shower screens ?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

This is the 'learning to make shit coffee' thread


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I learnt that years ago .... This is a refresher course


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Spazbarista said:


> This is the 'learning to make shit coffee' thread


I think we should re title it


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

In fact

Why do we need to use a jug to steam milk? Just steam it in the cup!

Why do we need lovely little cups, just use any old mug

Why do we need a steam wand just head the milk in a pan and use a straw for some bubbles

In fact why bother at all. Spoon, jar, hot water, milk....... Perfect


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> In fact
> 
> Why do we need to use a jug to steam milk? Just steam it in the cup!
> 
> ...


why do we need a mug, why not just sip straight from the drip tray?

why do we need a drip tray, why not just slurp straight from the counter?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

a couple more shots and I'll post a video up ..... I dont get channeling, but I do get early blonding which would be so easy to get rid of with a tamp..... currently updosing from 18g to 19g and hitting 32g out in 30 seconds.

Tastes fine, but by god what a freaking mess .... I have coffee grounds everywhere, my poor PF gasket ... I think this after noon is Pully Caff time !

The hardest bit is the dose volume ... at 20g I get coffee coming out the top of the PF, but the shot is so much better (I guess because the shower screen is providing a harder tamp) ... at 19g I get early blonding but at least the shot comes out the bottom !

Tamping is also FAR FAR quicker, to dump 18g quickly into the basket, couple of taps, tamp, polish, lock, pull !


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Fevmeister said:


> why do we need a mug, why not just sip straight from the drip tray?


oddly enough, going on the freaking mess no tamping has caused me this morning, you could easily drink out my drip tray, its practically a turkish coffee with all the bits floating around in it ...... lick my kitchen floor as well, thats now 50% coffee


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

so, if coffee chap tried this with a naked on his lever and got stuff all over the place, maybe he should go back to the drawing board, use a decent grinder to deliver into the pf before he writes off this topic..(!)


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> so, if coffee chap tried this with a naked on his lever and got stuff all over the place, maybe he should go back to the drawing board, use a decent grinder to deliver into the pf before he writes off this topic..(!)


Haven't written the topic off, it is interesting to see what the effects of tamping are, however there are pretty good reasons that things are done, like indeed tamping. I understand why you like to question things and stir things up, but I bet you go back to tamping when this fad is done.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)




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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


>


Perfect


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> I bet you go back to tamping when this fad is done.


screw it ..... I am not waiting that long, I am going back to tamping now.

at 19g I can happily pull a 30s shot to get in the region of 34g out. ....... but with in 3 notches of the grinder (maccap mc4) I get early blonding and too quicker flow, early channeling or initial channelling that then works itself out

to me its obvious you "need" to tamp ..... and using the shower screen to tamp is just a ball ache and overly messy, when you might just as well use a tamper to do it .

What it has taught me though, is how hard you need to be tamping ... I have been getting some really nice tasting shots today .... now is that from the updosing, and subsequent smaller ratio ..... or, a finer grind and lighter tamp tastes better ?

Of course the next experiment will be is a £120 easy tamper better than a £30 motta

Edit ... Also the first time I tried this circa 2010 .. I got easier results with a gaggia classic rather than todays HX izzo vivi ? ......... water pressure make a difference to channeling with a lighter tamp ?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Infact

sod it, I am fully back tracking, looking at my videos, the pull is crap ... the taste is excellent, but the naked bottom tell-eth the truth. ... It isn't "easy" to get a good no-tamp shot, ... its easier to tamp properly

I am sure it its possible, but I would want a triple basket or a grinder that could grind finer ... and I want someone else to clean it all up.

I was wrong .. and right now, I am going downstairs to cuddle my tampers .... might even buy a new one


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Of course the next experiment will be is a £120 easy tamper better than a £30 motta


Someone's making a lot of money if they are selling what effectively is a lump of metal for £120







last time I was back home I was tamping NSEW with a bottom of an old glass, even nutated a bit, worked like a treat!

T.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

im all for paying for quality but 120 quid is a lot of bloody money for a tamper


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I have never bought a tamper .... yet I have 4 of them .. I dont know where they come from, I keep finding them in drawers though .... they are like paper clips and biros.

I think people throw them in with coffee machines !


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Fevmeister said:


> im all for paying for quality but 120 quid is a lot of bloody money for a tamper


http://www.giveitthebeans.co.uk/eazytamp-5-star-pro-orange-spot-flat

think its got a spring in it


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Of course the next experiment will be is a £120 easy tamper better than a £30


http://socraticcoffee.com/2015/08/comparing-the-impact-of-tamper-on-tds/


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

h1udd said:


> http://www.giveitthebeans.co.uk/eazytamp-5-star-pro-orange-spot-flat
> 
> think its got a spring in it


similar to the push tamper that Jeebsy and jlarkin have a demo version of

i doubt that'll be 120 quid

everything on that website you linked is vastly over priced


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## Scotford (Apr 24, 2014)

I use a £30 cafelat one


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

h1udd said:


> the naked bottom tell-eth the truth. ...
> 
> and right now, I am going downstairs to cuddle my tampers ...


Ewww, this is a family coffee forum you know!


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