# Upgraditus - Moving to an HX machine?



## Lawman (Jul 26, 2013)

I have been getting some upgraditus. I currently have a Gaggia Classic and I am looking at the Rocket Appartmento, but reading on the forum I see that people are recommending ECM over Rocket. Looking at the ECM machine, I really like the look of the ECM Mechanika Slim, but at £300 more than the Rocket. However before I go further I would really like to see them in the flesh. Only problem is Bella Barista is miles away from me, and with a young family it's difficult to justify time away from them. I know I could view the Rocket at Machina, but would really like to compare the Rocket against the ECM and the Lelit Mara than BB has.

Or should I just stick with my Classic and try and perfect that?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Lawman said:


> I have been getting some upgraditus. I currently have a Gaggia Classic and I am looking at the Rocket Appartmento, but reading on the forum I see that people are recommending ECM over Rocket. Looking at the ECM machine, I really like the look of the ECM Mechanika Slim, but at £300 more than the Rocket. However before I go further I would really like to see them in the flesh. Only problem is Bella Barista is miles away from me, and with a young family it's difficult to justify time away from them. I know I could view the Rocket at Machina, but would really like to compare the Rocket against the ECM and the Lelit Mara than BB has.
> 
> Or should I just stick with my Classic and try and perfect that?


How long have you had the Classic for? Is it modded in any way? Which grinder is it paired with?


----------



## Lawman (Jul 26, 2013)

Had the Classic for about 6 years, and I have paired in with a Mignon.

The only mod is to change the steam wand, everthing else is standard.

I mainly drink espresso, with the very occasional latte for guests.


----------



## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

You could consider adding a PID, makes a massive difference to the classic.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Lawman said:


> Had the Classic for about 6 years, and I have paired in with a Mignon.
> 
> The only mod is to change the steam wand, everthing else is standard.
> 
> I mainly drink espresso, with the very occasional latte for guests.


What makes you go for an HX machine? The boiler is set to steam temperature, like, 130C, and the brew boiler just takes it heat from that. Their advantage is that you have constant steam available, however it kind defeats the point if you drink espresso most of the time with the occasional milk based drink.

I personally think an HX machine is overkill for you. Saying that, once I upgraded from a classic to an HX and then DB machine, if found myself drinking milk based drinks as the norm rather than the exception.

Is it the E61 group head you are after?


----------



## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

The question is regarding espresso quality only how you would improve the quality of the coffee cup comparing 100 Poundish Classic and $$$$ HX Machine? I was thinking about this upgrade too but cannot convince myself that it is worthwhile aside of a new nicely looking gadget in the kitchen. I don't use milk at all


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

L&R said:


> The question is regarding espresso quality only how you would improve the quality of the coffee cup comparing 100 Poundish Classic and $$$$ HX Machine? [...] I don't use milk at all


Well, the thermal stability of the E61 group is legendary, together with its capabilities of having a brief "pre-infusion" built in by design. The main disadvantage however is maintenance and longer heat up time, however it will last a lifetime if cared for properly. Hence my question on the post above.

It doesn't need to be an HX to have an E61 group head either


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Lawman said:


> I have been getting some upgraditus. I currently have a Gaggia Classic and I am looking at the Rocket Appartmento, but reading on the forum I see that people are recommending ECM over Rocket. Looking at the ECM machine, I really like the look of the ECM Mechanika Slim, but at £300 more than the Rocket. However before I go further I would really like to see them in the flesh. Only problem is Bella Barista is miles away from me, and with a young family it's difficult to justify time away from them. I know I could view the Rocket at Machina, but would really like to compare the Rocket against the ECM and the Lelit Mara than BB has.
> 
> Or should I just stick with my Classic and try and perfect that?


I would be a little more patient and read a little more. it's not all about looks and there are many different HX nmachines. Lelit mara, ECM, Rocket, Expobar etc.. It's as important what's inside, components and how they perform, beauty is only skin deep as they say. you have time, there is no countdown, take your time and choose something you will not want to upgrade from for a long time, perhaps never.

HX machines in a sense are yesterdays technology, I don't dislike them, but I sort of think their time in the marketplace is perhaps limited (or should be). More modern dual boiler machines are well worth considering because of the advantages they give and new ones are coming on stream that will cost the same or similar amounts to the HXs you are looking at.


----------



## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

I would first check if opv is set for 9bar.

Then upgrade the grinder or add a PID to the classic.


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

If you look at the numbers you will see that the Rocket will take longer to heat up than your classice - 1100 or 1200w with a 1.8L boiler. Might not matter to you but something to bear in mind. Dual boiler machines are likely to use smaller boilers and have that level of wattage in each. Heat up times vary for other reasons as well.

I don't know much about Classics but a fair few people use them and I believe produce great coffee. Changing machine as you may have problems in that area is unlikely to help. Changing grinder might. I'm personally not totally convinced on that score but only based on grinders I have used - Sage and a Mazzer mini. Both can produce drinks that suite me. The Mazzer does have some advantages over the Sage. Taste differs a bit too but that is a personal thing and doesn't mean that there is anything fundamentally wrong with either.







Given the choice of one or the other I would probably go for the Mazzer.

I believe people make some changes to to how Classics are set up as they come. Have you ? That's just an impression I have that may be incorrect.

Some HX can produce very hot brew water if they aren't used correctly. Bit like a Classic if water isn't run off when switching from steam back to brew to get the temperature back to where it should be. Some HX machines have 2 temperature PID so are steamed in the same way to get back to brew temperature. Some I assume just have PID on the steam water temperature so can produce very hot brew water that needs to be run off after they are left standing. Some high end commercial machines may even have additional small boilers on each group head. There are probably a number of different arrangements that this level.

Dual boiler machines have the correct temperature in each of them. The question then is how long can they produce steam. In my case portafilters can have 2 spouts so can I fit a basket that will hold enough grounds to satisfy me for 2 flat whites poured at the same time. Then can I steam enough milk for 2 rather large drinks, 10oz plus each in my case.







I've only done that on my Barista Express which can steam for ever via it's thermocoil heating but it falls down on basket size with any bean I have tried using their standard baskets. Thermocoil - it's advisable to descale more often than a boiler machine but all machines do need descaling at some point.


----------



## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> More modern dual boiler machines are well worth considering because of the advantages they give and new ones are coming on stream that will cost the same or similar amounts to the HXs you are looking at.


What are your recommendations for these dual boiler machines and what machines are on the horizon if you don't mind me asking? I'm looking to spend around £1000 on a machine in the next year. I'm not hugely concerned about space, I just want the best value for money.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Are you concerned about heat up time?


----------



## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Are you concerned about heat up time?


Not massively. I work from home and I would probably keep it on/have a wifi switch for it.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> What are your recommendations for these dual boiler machines and what machines are on the horizon if you don't mind me asking? I'm looking to spend around £1000 on a machine in the next year. I'm not hugely concerned about space, I just want the best value for money.


You going to need to up your spend to a little below £1200, that just gets you in at the ground floor of some decent HX and Dual boilers (Minima should be ready in months). Remember you need to budget ofr a grinder on top of the machine....unless you already got a good one.


----------



## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

£1200 is fine and I have the Niche on order so that should arrive in the next month or 2 hopefully. Is the minima looking to be the best option at around that price?


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

mctrials23 said:


> £1200 is fine and I have the Niche on order so that should arrive in the next month or 2 hopefully. Is the minima looking to be the best option at around that price?


For a dual boiler below £1200, I think it's going to not only be hard to beat, but impossible to beat. There is the Expobar Brewtus II, or Expobar Dual boiler (not sure what they call it now). That's also not bad, but in terms of internal quality, rattles and a few other small issues. I know which I would prefer. Well this is all assuming ACS go with my recommendations for changes after testing the Alpha 1.1 machine. you can read all about it here:

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?43909-Beta-Testers-wanted-for-Minima

As far as the grinder goes, you are definitly well sorted, as you will see in the Videos, I am using a Niche. I have both the UK and US models.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

There's also the Profitec 300 around that price bracket, which you can get from Bella Barista. It does not have an e61 group head thought.


----------



## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

Thanks for the help guys. I will do a bit of research and I'm reading through the Minima thread now.


----------



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

I shouldn't be reading this thread..... Still have a Classic and I SHOULD be happy with it. I've now upgraded the grinder from a Mazzer Mini to SJ to Major. I can't see myself upgrading the grinder beyond 83mm burrs. I probably couldn't even lift a heavier grinder. Scary as it sounds, I think I'm pretty happy right now....... But a voice at the back of my head says "you had a Nespresso machine in January... didn't take too long to move on from there...." After my first post on this forum asking about Nespresso pods everyone thought I was a troll.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

This was my problem.


----------



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> There's also the Profitec 300 around that price bracket, which you can get from Bella Barista. It does not have an e61 group head thought.


This was my thought also - hard to beat in its price range perhaps.

No e61 - which is good or bad news depending on your point of view....... eg I think it has something like 10 warm up time ready to pull a shot


----------



## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

Your current set-up is what I was using until I bought an ECM Technika IV Profi a couple of months ago. I've had the Classic for around 6 years and the Mignon for a couple of years. I could make very nice flat whites and caps with this pairing but I didn't persevere with espresso. Clearly temperature stability and repeatability are big challenges for the Classic - I think it takes a lot of patience to get nice espressos from one. The Classic is also slow when steaming milk and the results can be variable.

I took ages to decide on an upgrade but favoured ECM quite early on. When I first thought about upgrading, the Synchronika wasn't on the market and I might have gone for a Profitec 700. ECM only had HX machines back then and a PID DB was quite attractive. When I finally came round to deciding, it was between the Synchronika and the Technika. As around 90% of my drinks are with milk, I figured I didn't need the added complexity of a DB and went for the HX. Also the Synchronika was a bit bigger and would only just fit under our wall cabinets.

If you are mainly making espresso, then go for a DB where you can switch off the steam boiler. Heat up is much faster and you save electricity.

Overall I am happy I upgraded - my drinks are a bit smoother. Milk steaming is much faster and the microfilm is much more consistent. The Technika is very nice to use, very quiet and just feels high quality. I have tried the odd espresso and the results were ok - as I said earlier, getting a nice espresso takes a bit of patience and trial and error. The advantage with better equipment is repeatability which makes adjusting to taste easier. With time, I would be able to get a nice balanced espresso, something I would have struggled to achieve with the Classic.

There are some downsides to higher end equipment. Longer warm-up - around 30-35 mins compared to 15-20 with the Classic - a DB with brew boiler only will be good to go in around 10 mins though. Maintenance is more demanding - I'm now using bottled water for fear of scaling this up. External cleaning and polishing - I don't intend to get OCD over this because it will look used after a few years anyway. You just don't want to scratch it! Also space may be a factor. My Technika is a fair bit larger than the Classic but fits in our kitchen just fine

Final point - Despite being an ECM fan, I was seriously thinking about a Profitec 300 but BB is miles away and I wasn't convinced about the looks. However, in terms of value, size, flexibility, it seemed perfect. Nevertheless my mind was made up when I found an ECM stockist 5 miles away and could see the machines up close.


----------



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> This was my thought also - hard to beat in its price range perhaps.
> 
> No e61 - which is good or bad news depending on your point of view....... eg I think it has something like 10 warm up time ready to pull a shot


Not totally sure but think the 300 does use E61 sized baskets / 58mm portafilter. Ring brew group may refers to how the brew boiler is installed - directly on top of the group head resulting in faster heating than the usual thermo syphon Italian bling completely exposed grouphead heating.

The parts diagram show that it's very very similar to a Piccino. The boilers on that get up to heat in under 5 min. I'd say about 3. The group head heat up extends that to 15min or so if the machine is flushed and add another 5 min for the portafilter to fully heat up if that's left in.








Internally It looks like a Piccino with PID to me.

John

-


----------

