# Which VST??



## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

I have decided to go for a VST and see what the fuss is about. The question is, do you guys recon I should go for the 15g or 18g? I am fairly set on the 18 for espresso/macchiato but is it going to be totally ideal for 150ml cappuccinos and flat-whites? I guess if not, I can just plop in the standard rancilio basket, until the day i inevitably buy the other one aswell!

I guess the real question, Is the 18g going to be as versatile as a 15g?

Also, where do you recommend is the best place to get one? Google seems to manage to find them on Square mile but when looking via the site, they are nowhere to be found, which leads me to think maybe they aren't stocking them any more?


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Na, I think I have decided against the 18g for now, I will get one later, I'll just stick with 15-16g, A) because It will be nice to get a more accurate guage of how much better VST really is, and i think 18g might be pushing it a bit for the cappuccino which seems to be my drink of choice lately.

Still, where best should I be looking for them?


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

AAAAAHHH!!! why is this so hard!! maybe 18g basket for a 2oz shot in a 150ml cappuccino is the way forward?

MIKE!! I NEED YOUR HELP!!!! I know you are good with this kind of thing!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Oh yeah, does anybody know what the fit is like of a VST in a naked rancilio PF?


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## Filthy_rich85 (Jan 20, 2011)

Hi Outlaw

I use the 22g VST basket and it fits my Rancilio PF perfectly


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## maarten_booij (Jan 28, 2011)

Hey Outlaw,

I received my vst a week ago from square mile. I went for the 18gr, and am very happy with it. I couldn't find them on their website first as well, but if you look closely, the brewing equipment section on their website has two pages, and above all the products is a really small (blue) next link to the second page. You will find them there


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

My use of the VST goes back to the group purchase on this site. I ordered both the 18g and the 15g. The 18g arrived first and I was so content with it that I didn't proceed with the order for the 15g.

I'm dosing 18g and producing 2x 1oz shots with each pull (sometimes a little less).

But I only drink espresso, so can't comment myself on what they do for other espresso-based drinks - but I've had only good comments!

I'm so pleased with the 18G basket that I've recently bought another as a spare.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Just seen this thread. I think jimbow might know more about this than me. I have a 15g but haven't actually used it yet. Ultimately I think it comes down to personal taste (which technically speaking means whether you prefer a low extraction yield or a high one). I find I'm happy with a high dose, low yield espresso so for me 18g makes a great shot anywhere between 1 and 2oz. A 150ml (5floz) cup with a 2oz shot plus milk would be strong but very tasty I think.

But if I wanted to experience the different taste profile that comes from extracting more from the grinds then that is what the 15g basket supposedly helps achieve. Alternatively you could just dose 15g in an 18g basket, because the thing that you're trying to achieve (to get a higher extraction) is simply a thinner puck.

A thinner puck means the percolation process going on in the basket is more effective at reaching and extracting from the grinds at the bottom. At least that's the theory one luminary wrote in his oft-quoted paper.

Should you go 18 or 15? Probably 15 to be fair, but I like my 18. I'll let you know if that changes after I've tried the 15 (but that won't be for a few months)


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Wanting 28-30g extractions I bought an 18g VST but it wouldnt fit with my bottomless portafilter , so I obtained a smaller-profiled 15g - hurrah, it fitted & I got to see what all the fuss was about.

Something I very quickly realised with test shots :

1. Grind needs to be finer

2. The 15g basket is designed to be used with 14-15-16g (I had tried hopelessly bunging 18g in as I had with my old standard basket)

3. Using 1.6 ratio the results are superior to a standard basket, for my palate.

So now I use 15g as a start point and extract 23g approx. This is absolutely perfect as a straight espresso shot (leaves room for a cheeky second) and quite happily cuts through even a 200ml+ flat white, although my personal preference is a 130-140ml sized drink.

There is the added benefit of getting 2 or 3 more shots out of a 250g bag too!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Seems as though you guys are also of my sort of thinking!

Mike, the experimenting on flavour profile with different levels of extraction is precisely my case for the 15g, while the fact that I generally tend to favour the up-dose for general consumption, is my case for the the 18g

I simply cannot decide, as It will be at least a couple of weeks before I will be able to justify to myself getting the opposing one!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Completely agree with Mike and Gary. I have used both the 15 and 18g VST baskets and believe that ultimately it depends entirely upon your own personal taste. I personally favour lower doses in the 15g basket with more lightly roasted coffees for the higher extraction yield that Mike described. If however, you tend to use darker roasts and tend to dose ~18g with standard baskets already then the 18g VST basket may suit you better.

If you tend to dose higher in standard 14g baskets you will notice a big difference in using an 18g VST basket as it offers much less resistance than a standard 14g basket and so allows a finer grind.


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## takingabreak (Nov 10, 2011)

I find the 15g and 18g VST baskets extract and taste pretty much the same. I checked this with a couple of shots this morning. First shot was 15g dose in the 15g basket, 1.75 brew/dose ratio, 30s and 17.5% extraction yield - juicy, fruity and slightly tart. Second was 18g in the 18g basket, 1.9 ratio, 27s (as I'd coarsened the grind slightly too much) and 18.1% extraction yield. Still good, but a little flatter tasting. So, the small changes in taste and yield were consistent both with each other and with the small changes in brew ratio and timing, with the basket size seeming not to come into it. I preferred the 17.5%. Interestingly, to me anyway, I can push the extraction up to the magical 19% with this (lightly roasted) blend, using more water, more time or higher temperature, but it doesn't taste as good.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Well this seems to illustrate a good point about the different VST basket sizes... at least per my own understanding. The basis of the VST baskets is that they provide a better extraction... and the difference between the 15g and 18g is that the 15g will provide a higher extraction yield... the 18g will offer the 16-20% range, and the 15g will offer closer to the 20-24% range (traditional italian ext%) (per Jim Schulman's paper). *But this is only the case if both shots are a traditional italian 2oz volume*. The problem is, of course, that we have ditched fluid ounces and now use brew ratios and beverage weight to dictate when to stop the shot, and the 15g espresso tends to weigh less than the 18g espresso (and also be a lower volume), as with your two shots, GlennV. Therefore the difference in flavour is not going to be realised. Obviously there is no right and wrong, but the downside of using brew ratio is that the 15g basket is not reaching its full potential.

But I may have misunderstood something!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> but the downside of using brew ratio is that the 15g basket is not reaching its full potential.
> 
> But I may have misunderstood something!


I dont follow. 15g x 1.55 = roughly 23g

18g x 1.55 = roughly 28g

They will both taste the same all else taken into account, or am I missing something?

Thus someone wanting a larger volume of espresso in the cup picks the 18?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

> They will both taste the same all else taken into account, or am I missing something?


Exactly how I understand it Gary... they will taste the same. But the 15g basket can be used for (at least) two goals.

1. To serve a shorter shot that tastes the same as a larger one, because a consistent brew ratio (e.g. 1.55) is used to retain approximately the same TDS and extraction %. This is what most people seem to want it for... OR

2. To serve a different tasting expresso, by NOT aiming for a consistent brew ratio, and instead aiming for a consistent shot volume in ml or floz.

If the volume is the same for both the 15g and 18g beverage then lower dose in the 15g, combined with the finer grind and also the thinner puck (enabling more effective percolation throughout the entire puck depth), will mean that the extraction % is higher, and hence the taste will be different. It's not just a case of the shot being more weak... the TDS should still be the same as the 18g one... but the 'better' extraction means the flavour profile is changed.

Now all this is theoretical to me. I haven't tested any of it, and I'm just combining what I've read in Schulman's paper with the little I know about extraction. I now feel the need to experiment!!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> 1. To serve a shorter shot that tastes the same as a larger one, because a consistent brew ratio (e.g. 1.55) is used to retain approximately the same TDS and extraction %. This is what most people seem to want it for...


This is the wavelength I'm on at the moment, with my current favouring of the 150ml flat-whites/cappuccinos, I think 2oz shots from 15-16g are going to create a more balanced drink. Extracting 2oz from 18g is only going to result in a disapointing shot, while anything more than a 2oz shot in a 150ml cup will create something more akin to a Macchiato, of course this isn't necessarily a bad thing, just not what I'm drinking alot of at the moment. Also, adjusting to a similar sized VST to my current standard basket will make for a better(and more enlightening) transition. No doubt, the 18g will be on it's way in the near future regardless!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Then I do also understand that different coffee's are at their best with different extraction yields, never mind, I could think and talk science forever but I think I just have to make a decision... so I have decided to buy both!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

I have also decided to buy a brand new silvia, upgrade to a prettier and more functional 2011/12 V3, I have ordered an Auber PID from the states with programable pre-infusion, timer and steam control.

It's time for some fresh equipment for the coming spring!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Incase you're wondering, Yes I just got paid!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

This made me grin!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I'm waiting for payday to at least consider buying the Auber PID + pre-infusion.

I'm just fascinated by the pre-infusion control because as far as I can tell it operates at pump pressure not line pressure.

Do report back Outlaw


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Perhaps it pulses the pump in butsts of fractions of a second so the pressure never accumulates to full bar.

Sorry... Off topic.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Perhaps it pulses the pump in butsts of fractions of a second so the pressure never accumulates to full bar.
> 
> Sorry... Off topic.


That's exactly what it does, from what I read, Its a timable and tunable pulse action followed by adjustable soak time before it kicks in the pump for extraction.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Never the less, I will report back my personal experiences with it.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Outlaw I think there are a few out there that would be interested in a full write up (including installation) of the Auber kit, myself included...with pictures









I did want a new machine but that will have to wait for the new dawn of economic prosperity that is just around the corner,

so a PID will have to do and it will at least improve thermal stability, which is pretty noticeably bad on my baby class if you drink two shots in a row.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

That's actually not a bad idea atall.

Sure, I will either film or photograph Installation etc and playing with it post installation + plus obviously full write up to accompany.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Good stuff Outlaw.

Getting back on topic, I'm finding my extractions going just a tad too fast but I'm dosing about 15.5g in 15g VST.

These beans are about 2 weeks old.

What would be the maximum dose that would sit well in the 15g VST if the beans aren't super fresh?

Also the ridge on the inside, is this a dosing ridge?

Thanks


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

The ridge on the inside is designed to keep the basket inside the portafilter - it clicks in under the portafilter's spring. With standard Gaggia portafilters the spring is actually firm enough that this is unnecessary but for some portafilters such as the Silvia it is a common design feature to have ridged baskets. Interestingly, VST have just brought out ridgeless variants of all their baskets which do not have this ridge but unfortunately these are not available in the UK yet.

VST recommend that for each of their baskets the dose is kept to +/- 1g of the suggested dose e.g. 14-16g in the 15g basket.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Exactly how I understand it Gary... they will taste the same. But the 15g basket can be used for (at least) two goals.
> 
> 1. To serve a shorter shot that tastes the same as a larger one, because a consistent brew ratio (e.g. 1.55) is used to retain approximately the same TDS and extraction %. This is what most people seem to want it for... OR
> 
> ...


I found in practice that even though the 18g basket offers less resistance, if I used the same grind for both baskets and kept the brew ratio constant (with appropriate doses in each basket) then I needed to run the 18g shot longer to reach the target beverage weight. The alternative was to coarsen the grind so that I could maintain the same brew ratio with the same pour time. In both cases I found the flavour profile was slightly different. It would be interesting to go back and do the comparisons again using a refractometer







.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

This is such an interesting thread that I can't quite decide, from the evidence and theory produced so far, whether the 15g or 18g basket would suit me. I do know the 22g is probably not for me though









One question - what tamper base do you chaps with VST baskets use? Reason I ask is that that the VST info recommends 58.2mm - 58.4mm *flat base*. I of course have gone out and bought a curved base following the suggestions that it doesn't really make a difference (yes, I've seen the Seattle Coffee Gear vids).

Please keep the discussion flowing - I'm learning so much. Thanks everybody.

Al


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Cafelat Strada 58.35 mm from chris coffee in the US. Designed specifically for VST baskets

http://www.chriscoffee.com/products/home/newitems/vstroyaltamper

I wish santa was still about to get me one of these.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Or better yet, go to Reg Barber directly and have them make you exactly what you need to the .1 of a mm.

Stunning tampers, I am waiting until I find 'The Basket' and I will make the investment myself. If the VST and I get on, that may be sooner rather than later.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

onemac said:


> One question - what tamper base do you chaps with VST baskets use? Reason I ask is that that the VST info recommends 58.2mm - 58.4mm *flat base*. I of course have gone out and bought a curved base following the suggestions that it doesn't really make a difference (yes, I've seen the Seattle Coffee Gear vids).
> 
> Al


In this case I'm a mile away following the current trend on VST tampers. I'm using a RB 58.1 curved ripple - just about as far away from the perceived wisdom as you can get - and it works fine for me. I've a 58.1 flat base as well, but don't like it nearly so much.

I'm generally ridiculously easy to persuade into an upgrade, but this time I won't be following the trend and changing my tamper.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I use a Reg Barber 58mm C-flat tamper from my pre-VST days. This tamper is effectively a hybrid of flat and curved bases in that it has a flat centre but then curves slightly towards the edges; the theory being that the curved edges give a better edge seal. I have found that this tamper works okay on the VST basket (no donut extractions or other visible artifacts) although I have not compared the results with fully flat or curved bases. The fit is not bad either although it could probably do with being a fraction of a millimeter wider because as I remove it from the basket, grounds caught around the edge inevitably fall back onto the surface of the puck. Of course this could be partly due to the grounds getting caught in the ridge - it would be interesting to compare with a ridge-less version.

Regarding basket sizes: VST have brought out 2 new sizes although these are not yet available through UK suppliers. The new sizes are a 7g single basket and a 20g "competition" basket.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yeah, that 20g competition basket is an eyebrow raiser. It says it's used in the WBC, but 20g VST baskets are certainly not used in the UK part of the competition. The shape of things to come at the UKBC? All competitors dosing 20+g? Doesn't seem likely.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

can anyone explain to me in basic terms why you would choose the 15g or 18g, ive no idea what your all discussing in this thread lol

how many g is a normal double, 14g ?..... cos i can get 18g into mine (gaggia)


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

a 15g vst basket fits around 15g of grinds in. an 18g vst basket fits around 18g. thats the theory. your standard gaggia basket is not a vst basket.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

no i know its not a VST basket but why would you choose one or the other ?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

How about this... from earlier in this thread



MikeHag said:


> ...the 15g basket can be used for (at least) two goals.
> 
> 1. To serve a shorter shot that tastes the same as a larger one, because a consistent brew ratio (e.g. 1.55) is used to retain approximately the same TDS and extraction %. This is what most people seem to want it for... OR
> 
> 2. To serve a different tasting expresso, by NOT aiming for a consistent brew ratio, and instead aiming for a consistent shot volume in ml or floz.


More simply, you choose a smaller basket because you want a smaller espresso... is one answer. If the basket is smaller it helps you dose a smaller amount of grinds (without necessarily having to weigh the dose... although weighing is still advisable)


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## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

Re the tampers (off topic a little, I know), I'm using a Reg Barber 58.4mm flat, and no problems whatsoever with channeling at the edges. Not that I know of anything wrong with getting a fancier base, but the flat one seems to work fine when the size is a good fit.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

brun said:


> can anyone explain to me in basic terms why you would choose the 15g or 18g, ive no idea what your all discussing in this thread lol
> 
> how many g is a normal double, 14g ?..... cos i can get 18g into mine (gaggia)


Stock Gaggia baskets are designed for 14g of ground coffee as per Italian dosing standards. In high volume, commercial environments, Baristas often used grinders with dosers to approximately measure the dose being used. However, using a doser in this way can lead to the ground coffee going stale whilst sat in the doser. As an alternative, some Baristas started to grind on demand and level the ground coffee with the top of the portafilter basket as a means of measuring a consistent dose. This meant larger doses of coffee (approx 18-20g). Over time, many people have developed a preference for the stronger coffee this produces and, over time, prefer increasingly shorter, ristretto shots.

Whilst the basket can physically hold this higher volume of ground coffee, the resistance imposed on the brew water inherently by the basket itself (dictated by the size of the holes, and the diameter of the base) is only designed for 14g of coffee. Therefore to compensate, the coffee must be ground more coarsely for increased puck depths. Unfortunately, this coarser grind affects the speed at which the coffee solids are dissolved during the extraction process and in the resulting cup of espresso, this manifests itself as an overly acidic, tart or sour taste.

The 18g VST basket was designed specifically to take an 18g dose of ground coffee and so offers less resistance compared to the stock 14g basket (it has larger holes on the bottom) which in turn allows a finer grind to be used and the coffee to be properly extracted. As Mike said the 15g basket is for more traditional dosages of 14-16g where people perhaps do not want such a strong shot of espresso. There is also a school of though that says a shallower puck will extract more fully for a given set of variables which is why I often use a lower dose in the 15g basket for denser, more acidic coffees.

All VST baskets are precision engineered to exacting tolerances so that there is considerable consistency between baskets and even between shots with the same basket. Furthermore, the straight sides and wider bottom of the basket encourages a more even extraction with much less pronounced blonding.


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## takingabreak (Nov 10, 2011)

jimbow said:


> All VST baskets are precision engineered to exacting tolerances so that there is considerable consistency between baskets and even between shots with the same basket.


Actually, I find the VST baskets, when they work, work well. But they are a little finickity, and I would say less consistent between shots, if anything.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

all this beverage weight, tds, yields etc is confusing the feck out of me, lol, do i really need to know about this just to make a coffee ?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

No brun. Optional for those who want to take their knowledge and skill as far as we can.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

brun said:


> all this beverage weight, tds, yields etc is confusing the feck out of me, lol, do i really need to know about this just to make a coffee ?


Love it!!

Man, I am a scientist, I love being geeky about coffee but I have come to the conclusion that I get the best and most consistant shots when I simply grind, level, tamp and extract. No scales, no TDS devices, just good simple consistant barista skills!

Like the Chili Peppers song, "some prefer to go by book, but I prefer to go by feel" Like I said I love the scientific approach but If you can achive the desired result using pure simplicity and you are content with that, just continue as you are!

When was the last time you saw a top Barista in a commercial environment, wearing a lab-coat, knocking you up a Flat-white with a hadron collider!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Protonaccino?


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## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Flatomic white?


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Pmsl  ...


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

You can just picture it can't you, hoards of triumphant physicists, baristas and government officials, gathered at the collider, around an anti-gravity vacuum chamber containing the elecromagnetically suspended Helix-Espresso!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Is the Hadron Collider a 1 group or 2 group machine? Must take ages to warm up.

Back to business, I totally agree with Outlaw. Whilst TDS based on known brew ratios can help to achieve the theoretical optimum of the coffee, what it boils down to is how it tastes.

I honestly think there is no more sophisticated device than our tongues and olfactory bulbs (the bit in your nose that actually detects flavour when you drink or eat something).

Another great sense is sight, looking for visual clues of blonding or excessive streaking.

I have to say I think I made the right call on the 15g VST. It can be difficult to get on with sometimes, especially with light roasted coffees but at least it is a variable you know and come to understand.

15g VST seems more refined than 18g in my opinion but what do I know


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Well nuclear fission happens at the speed of light² so a fairly quick warm up time but seasoning the group first thing in the morning is a real fuss!

You would have thought that given the RRP and the thought that went into development that it would be at least a 2 group, alas, it is only a single, though it more than makes up for it in steaming function.

I am glad that you are singing the praises of the 15g as that is the one I have highest hopes for, for general day to day use anyway.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Does anybody know whether the La Marzocco Strada Baskets are the same as the regular VST's? I was planning a bit of a shopping spree at Coffee Hit(including a proper 'Rancilio' Naked PF, which is another bummer as I asked if they could mill it to fit a 22g basket so I have the option later on, all they said was "when you buy them together we will make sure they fit", I DON'T WANT TO SPEND THE EXTRA £22 ON THAT ONE JUST YET YOU CHEEKY BUGGERS!!!), all they have are the Strada baskets, which I think look the same in the pictures, the only thing that makes me doubt is that they are listed with funny sizes ie the 18g i think is listed as 17g etc.

Have a look anyway, you will see what I mean. http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/la-marzocco-strada-basket-17g/p863#tdesc_9


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

VST developed their baskets in collaboration with La Marzocco who went on to use the technology in their Strada machine. I believe the Strada baskets have similar barcoding and certification to the VST (although from LM rather than VST) and are essentially the same. I believe the sizes quoted by LM are more conventional (e.g. 14g rather than 15g a la VST) but are in fact the same physical sizes.


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## takingabreak (Nov 10, 2011)

Yes, it's all about taste. Geeky it may be, but I find it extraordinary how the taste of coffee made from the same roast of the same beans can differ so dramatically, something which both intrigues and (on the those rare occasions when it all clicks) delights me. Now, two drinks at different strengths (tds) and/or extraction yields will obviously taste different. What's really bizarre, though, is how two drinks at the same strength and yield can differ. For example 15g vs 18g in an E61 basket taste very clearly different, even at the same strength and yield. Personally though, I can't taste any difference between shots from 15g in a 15g VST basket and 18g in a 18g VST basket at the same strength and yield (but they are different to either E61 basket shot). Temperature is another whole can of worms, but I'll take my leave now.


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## jimgrant (Apr 15, 2010)

18g vst with gaggia classic,so for im happy with shots,18g dose 25s extractions nice will try other and see what happens


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Just a general question on the 15g VST baskets, with smaller holes than the 18g VST and standard baskets.

Do they require a lighter tamp?

Or does tamp have a relationship with grind size?

I'm not sure David Schomer tested his tamping technique on VST baskets.

I've been messing around with my technique except for tamp pressure which I have kept constant.

This is how I have diagnosed I'm tamping too hard but is this because my grind is too fine or generally do VST baskets need a lighter tamp.

I'd really appreciate people's findings and understanding on this.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

My experience was that tamp pressure did not really make much difference but the VST basket did really show up issues in tamp technique. For example, with the stock basket, I used to perform a firm tamp followed by light NESW tamp to get the coffee off the side of the basket before finishing with a final firm tamp. This seemed to cause all sorts of issues with the VST and a single, simple, straight and level tamp seems to work much better.

Of course the tamp, grind size, dose and the inherent resistance of the basket itself will all affect the flow rate so if the VST basket offers more or less resistance than your previous basket then you may need to alter one or more of these other variables to compensate. That said, I would suggest keeping tamp pressure constant and altering grind and/or dose.


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## Sam__G (Sep 4, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> Yeah, that 20g competition basket is an eyebrow raiser. It says it's used in the WBC, but 20g VST baskets are certainly not used in the UK part of the competition. The shape of things to come at the UKBC? All competitors dosing 20+g? Doesn't seem likely.


I've been thinking about this... with only being allowed a single.shot for a 5.5oz capp, could 20g baskets become realistic? Would espresso be compromised in competition as a result? Is this the point?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

The 20g dose would be split into two single shots. Not a problem. But I think it is perhaps more applicable in some of the US regional championships where updosing to 20+g is apparently commonplace. Actually I'd say it's common here in the UK too in cafes, but I just think it would be frowned upon if 20g baskets became compulsory in the UKBC.

Btw, regarding whether the espresso would be compromised... that depends on whether you find the "overdosed & underextracted" style of espresso palateable. Actually I like it!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

I have been using the 15g VST for little while now and really want to say, I haven't looked back! by the looks of it some people have had issues getting used to them but they seem to suit my style perfectly!

New question to anybody who is in the know(hijacking my own thread now!), I have yet to sample the delights of Square Mile, are their blends worth the price-tag? I am a massive fan of Extract Roastery and love not only their coffee but also their philosophy and the idea that all their coffee roasted to order is roasted on 'Betty' a 1955 Probat, lovingly brought back to life after being found and the whole gig goes on in a shed not too far from here. The product though really is outstanding! Anyway back on point, could Square Mile really outdo these guys on quality and if so, any recommedations!?


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

If I see a cafe is using square mile beans, I take it they know what they're doing and will try their coffee. Sounds like a stupid benchmark I know, but so far has always been true. Could be argued that if the caff is willing to pay the price for the beans, then they will hire/train decent baristas I suppose. Though I'm aware their wholesale prices will be different.

Anyway, my point is I've always found SQ fantastic.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

I received the 7g VST today (from Square Mile), bought under the impression it might make my shots better and more consistent.

What a fool...

I know I need a finer grind, but just how much finer I have yet to find.

The amount of squirting is just unbelievable. I will not give up just yet, but what a pain.

Another consideration is that before I was going from single to double baskets easily without having to vary the dialling on the grinder.

Fat chance of that, unless I am going to buy an 18g VST as well.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

There's a 7g VST basket?


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

http://shop.squaremilecoffee.com/products/vst-7g-basket


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Ah brilliant, I have been waiting for SquareMile to get these in stock after seeing them last month on the VST website. From what I remember, they are quite odd looking with stepped walls. The ground coffee goes into the stepped section and so looks like a special narrower tamper might be required. Did you find a 58mm tamper works okay with these baskets?


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

It is shaped exactly like the normal marzocco single basket. A 58mm tamper is no good for these baskets if dosed as recommended at 6/7/8 grams. (to be able to use the 58mm you would need to dose at approx 12g)

At the moment I am using the narrow part of the plastic tamper for this, but it is far from ideal, hence my other thread about finding a 40mm tamper. In fairness 40mm is too small as this is the diameter of the basket at the very bottom. It has steep walls, however at the top of the area that needs tamping it is probably more like 42mm. I finally managed to get a fair shot out of it by grinding much finer than I used to, but I can't say it is any better than the normal LM. Early days I guess.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I think VST recommend a 40.7-40.9mm tamper for use with their 7g basket.

Here is a link to a photo of the basket from the VST web site:

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0092/7622/products/VST_7g-1_large.jpg?452

I notice that it is actually quite deep and the site warns it may not fit all portafilters.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I don't follow the reasoning behind this basket. I need to read up, but initial thoughts are that it contradicts some of the arguments in favour of 15g baskets, i.e. thin puck depth enables better/more even extraction throughout the puck.

It seems to throw all that away and simply say "these holes are precision drilled"

Someone please tell me I'm wrong!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

To be honest, I don't really get on with 'single' baskets anyway, I find them a let down every time I make the point of trying to experiment with them, If i just want a 'single' shot, I dust off the standard(spouted) PF and split a regular 15g into two vessels, If no-one wants the spare shot then it goes to the garden, or i drink it anyway! I would rather a little became plant food than go to battle with the 7g basket that sits at the bottom of the basket pile on my shelf!


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## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

Outlaw333 said:


> If no-one wants the spare shot then it goes to the garden, or i drink it anyway!


Half the caffeine means that you can have twice as much!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> I don't follow the reasoning behind this basket. I need to read up, but initial thoughts are that it contradicts some of the arguments in favour of 15g baskets, i.e. thin puck depth enables better/more even extraction throughout the puck.
> 
> It seems to throw all that away and simply say "these holes are precision drilled"
> 
> Someone please tell me I'm wrong!


I must admit I don't either.

Just to further add to the confusion, I noticed the following within the description on the SquareMile website:

...

Each basket has been designed and created in such a way that it guarantees a size, distribution and shape of holes perfectly suited to extract around 20g of coffee.

We've enjoyed espressos brewed with a range of doses from 6-8g with these baskets. We'd generally recommend an espresso brew weight (liquid) of 26-31g with these baskets - depending on your desired style of espresso.

...

Assuming this is not a misprint (and to be honest the text does seem to be slightly contradictory) then this is quite a long brew ratio. Is this based upon the basket geometry i.e. deeper puck requires longer to properly extract?


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

I don't know, maybe it is because I am Italian (I now live in the UK) and I've grown to appreciate short espresso and many of them during the day, and the idea of drinking doubles just doesn't do it for me. Whenever I ask for a coffee out and about in the UK I have to specifically request a single and often i am told that there is no additional charge for a double, completely missing the point of my request. I overdosed on caffeine once and it is not a nice experience. If I can drink a perfectly good single in many Italian bars, why shouldn't I do so anywhere else. My single at home is actually better than my half a double (from a double spout). Maybe because I spent so long perfectioning it or maybe because I use a bottomless pf for the single. Anyway, the grind required for the VST baskets are so much different that I now have to decide whether to give up on the 7g VST or buy a 15g to match for the doubles. I am starting to whish I never started looking at coffee forums


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## ChiarasDad (Mar 21, 2010)

I have 18g and 20g VSTs and I'm finding I really don't use the 20g. I've just ordered a 15g, which I think will suit a few blends (I'm mainly thinking HasBean Kicker) better.

I must say I'm curious about that 7g basket.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

I think I've finally decided on a 15g basket. The best shots I'm getting at the moment with a naked portafilter and standard basket are 14g to 15g but I'm not getting the chance to level the grinds and have to tamp following a WDT in the basket. Is the 15g VST basket more shallow than the standard Naked Portafilter basket from Happy Donkey? I just don't want to waste funds at this time.

Al


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

I had the 7g VST for a few days now and I have decided to give up on it (at least for the moment) and go back to my standard 7g LM.

I accept that VST might offer advantages if you are juggling many filter baskets in a commercial environment and require consistency, but for my personal home use it doesn't make sense. (and by this I mean in my own opinion, in my own environment)

I just get better shots with the standard basket. It is more forgiving. The VST seems to be far too critical of tamping inconsistencies and, boy, try to get a consistent tamp with the 7g basket (if you can, please let me know how).

Also, why so much water retained in the basket after a shot? How can it be that a filter basket with less resistance (hence the requirement for a finer grind) retains so much water?

I am defeated.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

The 18g VST arrived today and I must say it is the Shizzle!!!

The 15g is amazing and still very much has its place but I am loving the 18g. Shots actually seem easier to extract low notes and greater sweetness, at least from Red Brick. Another bonus is, with the deeper puck it is easy in comparison to the 15g to pull a good shot with beans that are far too fresh and volatile.

Then there is the obvious.. bigger basket = bigger shot = about 5 or 6 grams more espresso to enjoy!


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Was that ordered from Square Mile Outlaw? I was thinking of getting an 18g with a bag of that new Tanzanian they have. Was just wondering if the basket is ridged or not? Or can you choose?


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

It was indeed, along with a bag of Red Brick.

I was a bit annoyed as they announced that Tanzanian on twitter when my Red Brick was on its way, otherwise I would have thrown in a bag for good measure!

It is the Ridged Basket, I don't think you can choose at the mo but they might put up the Ridgeless ones at some point. At £22 they are a bit cheaper than Steve has them up for. I nearly ordered mine from Hasbean to go with my Loayza order but I decided a) it was a bit cheaper and b) I have spent far more money with Hasbean, so i'm just sharing the wealth a little!


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Ok cheers, I might go for that then. Particularly interested if it makes it easier to tame fresh, lighter roast beans. I suppose the ridged/ridgeless doesn't really matter.

[Edit]

Done!


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

I actually much prefer a ridged basket, as I said somewhere else only reason being the reassuring 'click' into the Portafilter! The advantages of ridgeless just don't seem to outweigh that Click!


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