# Really struggling with the Pavoni.



## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Currently dosing 14g give or take a miniature amount, doing 3 small fellini pumps. I'm not getting tasty consistent shots, and it's really affecting me now. I've tried Italian Job, and Hasbeans espresso perfetio? I think it's called that anyway.

Something that is an issue is that I really don't know what a great tasting lightly roasted shot tastes like. I don't know If I'm going wrong or not. I'd really like some advice now.

I'm using a Macap M4C, knock 51mm and a post millenium Europiccola. It was new when purchased so it's not broken in any way.

I do ensure everything is up to temp and tamp as evenly and as consistently as I can. 28 second extraction.

I'm considering selling it now and getting a Silvia, which is a massive shame considering how much I wanted it to work for me.

Excuse the awful formatting, I'm on my phone. I'll attatch some photos of what I think are my more successful shots later.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Have you thought about cupping he lighter beans before trying for espresso. That will give you an idea of the taste profile in the beans you are aiming for ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RagingMammoth said:


> Something that is an issue is that I really don't know what a great tasting lightly roasted shot tastes like. I don't know If I'm going wrong or not. I'd really like some advice now.
> 
> I'm using a Macap M4C, knock 51mm and a post millenium Europiccola. It was new when purchased so it's not broken in any way.
> 
> ...


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

I haven't tried weighing the shot yet. I'll try that tonight when I'm home.

Thanks for the help.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Have you thought about cupping he lighter beans before trying for espresso. That will give you an idea of the taste profile in the beans you are aiming for ?


How would I go àbout doing that? Theres nowhere anywhere near me that will do anything like this.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Brew a big French press (at least 750g), don't press the plunger down, just use it to sink the grinds with a quick pump before steeping - keep it above the brew and hold in place whilst you pour. Start tasting it around 10-15mins after pouring off the first 1/4 cup (discard this)....don't decant it, keep going back & tasting a little poured from the pot each time until too cold to enjoy, say over an hour?


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

I really didn't like 'Hasbeans espresso perfetio' when ti was made for me as a brewed coffee, there was something quite harsh in there (and I'm a massive HasBean fanboy). Try a single origin from them maybe?

Check out this blog post from reiss @ londinium Espresso on the La Pavoni:

https://londiniumespresso.com/blog/got-a-la-pavoni-lever-for-xmas-struggling-with-it

He's a really nice guy and I recommend taking him up on that offer.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

I will consider this. I love the premise of the lever machine and have devoted hours of my time practicing and researching it all, and failing in practice is just flat out infuriating.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The key to the pavoni is temperature temperature temperature, let it get to hot and you are on a hiding to nothing as anything will taste bitter. You don't need to do three Fellini moves either, just drop the lever allow around six seconds for puck saturation, raise lever then depress for the shot ( I sometimes raise again at first point of pressure to add a little extra water into the mix. Then it is down to slow consistent pressure.

Grind is exceptionally important on the pavoni grind fine tamp light, it is all about finesse, they are not forgiving machines but my god when you learn how to get them right they are knockout....

Agree with Aaron throw reiss a mail as he is passionate about levers....

Where abouts are you????


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

Hi Coffee chap. I'm based in Essex at the moment.

Thanks for the advice, but I always make sure everythings up to temp best I can.


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

MWJB said:


> RagingMammoth said:
> 
> 
> > Something that is an issue is that I really don't know what
> ...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Result, now just fine tune, when is said about temp, what it was emphasising is that being up to temp is great, but if left on or too many shots are pulled through the group, the la pavoni WILL overheat, apologies if you are already aware of this...


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Result, now just fine tune, when is said about temp, what it was emphasising is that being up to temp is great, but if left on or too many shots are pulled through the group, the la pavoni WILL overheat, apologies if you are already aware of this...


I am, yeah. I leave it to warm up for around 15 minutes with the portafilter in. Or pull a shot with the portafilter off, and dunk it in hot water.

Thanks a lot people, I really appreciate thr amount of time you spend helping frustrated people like me.

Now to practice with my custom steam tip.. *shudders*


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

This might be verging on excessively geeky, but you can try a cheapy k-type thermometer probe wire stuck in a piece of sponge in the portafilter basket to see what the actual temperature is like.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I had one (a Gaggia Factory) for 18 months or so and was getting really great results eventually. If I get chance I'll post some links to some articles that were helpful. Keep going with it because the results that are possible are worth it.


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## espressotime (Apr 6, 2013)

You should slip Tije's cooling ring over the group.

Makes temperaturemanagement a lo easier.

http://www.kostverlorenvaart.nl/temp/pavoniprobe/17-tijescooler-_MG_2569.jpg


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I have two of these arriving next week !


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## Maz100 (Jan 7, 2013)

RagingMammoth said:


> I am, yeah. I leave it to warm up for around 15 minutes with the portafilter in. Or pull a shot with the portafilter off, and dunk it in hot water.
> 
> Thanks a lot people, I really appreciate thr amount of time you spend helping frustrated people like me.
> 
> Now to practice with my custom steam tip.. *shudders*


I have a much loved Pavoni and agree with what had been said here. A couple of points...28s seems like a long pull on a Pavoni. For me this would be too fine a grind. My best pulls are probably around 15s. There is resistance on the lever but it comes down smoothly and the coffee flows with nice and evenly from the portafilta without seeming to gush.

I've also tried to warm the group and basket ahead of the first shot but my best results are always from the second shot with no empty warm up pull before the first pull. I've also tried pulling the first shot through an old puck but she seems to know...


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## dogday38 (Feb 15, 2012)

Has anyone a link to purchase the cooling ring please.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

if you hang fire, I have two coming over from Holland, there is no link per se it is one guy in holland.


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## dogday38 (Feb 15, 2012)

ok, let me know how it works out, quite intrigued to see if there is a solution to the age old.


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## Soll (Nov 10, 2013)

Yes me to! Although U use the Strega now I still have La Pavoni hidden in the cupboard


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## kolorado (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm a massive fan of my millennium Eurocupiccola, but even after 10 years of daily use I'd be lying if I promised consistency. Personally, I started out getting to know my machine by working out grind and tamp with a single pull through some mid-roast espresso blend beans and didn't bother with Fellini moves...you end up with a very small, intense ristretto but amazing crema. If you can accomplish that you could try to refine the timing, depth and number of Fellini moves. Most days I still just do a single pull with a much longer pre infusion than I initially felt comfortable doing.


I always give my Pavoni about 20-25 min to warm and reach temperature. Everything is analog with my machine, but I know its reached the right temperature by the feel of how warm the top few inches of the lever have become.

I grind fine and tamp hard, trying to get as little or no headspace between the grounds and the group screen, usually there is a push against the grind by the bottom of the screen, and little imprints left afterwards on the puck.

I pull a small amount of water through the empty group and portafilter into the mug, then heat that water with the steam wand to warm the cup and clear the boiler. I let the machine stabilise for about 10sec. and load the tamped basket.

Then I lift the lever slowly to just before the opening and wait for the boiler to switch on, lift the rest of the way and let the boiler pressure pre-infuse, usually I just let the boiler switch off as this takes about 3-5 secs. then decide how much longer to give as a pre-infuse.

Everything after that is just learning the feel of the pull through the coffee, I try to keep constant pressure, but somewhere about halfway down, especially with lighter roasts, I get something like a "kickback" where I think the beans expand slightly and create their own pressure. It's a strange feeling that doesn't always happen but I know it when I feel it and let the beans do some of the work as I keep the pressure constant and the lever stationary for a second or two, then there's a give and the lever pressure completes the pull, somewhere around the 25-30 sec. mark. Again depending on the bean.


You get to know beans very intimately with a Pavoni, each has different characteristics and behaviours as their brewing. So if I've I find one I like, I tend not to change it.

I've found light beans behave very differently in my machine. I have a lot of adjusting of grind depending on the bean. I give light roast a longer pre-infusion (about 6-8sec) and a notch or two higher on my Rocky than I would with a darker roast (in my case that's up from 4 to 6 on an old Rocky).

FWIW that's what I've found and done for years now and I have developed an intimate and rarely fractious relationship with my Pavoni, but it is a relationship and takes some work and some getting to know one another. I wish you luck and hope you can find a way to get along!


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

As I mentioned earlier I have a few links that helped me when I was learning to use a lever. I hope it's ok to link to HB threads from here.

Have a read of these, just a few that I've amassed from searching.

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/la-pavoni-pro-in-hands-of-pros-t101.html#p488

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/introduction-some-la-pavoni-stuff-t17416-20.html#p206031

http://www.home-barista.com/reviews/lever-espresso-machines-smackdown-t5176-120.html?hilit=factory#p62521

Not sure about the "10s pull" in this one but worth a read anyway.

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/lesson-in-using-la-pavoni-home-lever-espresso-machine-t15827.html

http://www.home-barista.com/levers/la-pavoni-shot-diagnosis-how-to-reduce-sourness-sharpness-t16398.html

The top one is the one I had most joy with. One thing I found at first is I never ground fine enough. There should be a lot of resistance from the puck to generate enough pressure. As you're pressing down the piston should move but slowly - maintain a steady pressure as the lever goes down.

Getting it right is really rewarding so stick at it!


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