# Lowest roast to cup time beans



## Hal.E.Lujah (Aug 19, 2014)

Heya all,

I'm experimenting with getting my roasted beans straight into the grinder. I'm basically wondering if anyone else has experimented with cutting out the gas valve stage on roasted beans? If so, any thoughts on beans that can be ground up within hours from roast rather than days?

Worth mentioning that due to grinder set up it's not an option to just grind and let it sit, we use an SR70 Evo at the moment. Would consider putting the Mazzer back out if that's my only option though.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

garydyke1 said at the roastery they use all their beans within seven days and sometimes almost immediately. Darker roasts seems to develop more over time so you might miss out on some of the more complex flavours using them straight away.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Hal.E.Lujah said:


> I'm experimenting with getting my roasted beans straight into the grinder. I'm basically wondering if anyone else has experimented with cutting out the gas valve stage on roasted beans? If so, any thoughts on beans that can be ground up within hours from roast rather than days?
> 
> Worth mentioning that due to grinder set up it's not an option to just grind and let it sit, we use an SR70 Evo at the moment. Would consider putting the Mazzer back out if that's my only option though.


After many years roasting, I am of the conclusion that "degassing" mainly affects the pour,but not necessarily the flavour so grinding them and letting them sit does not really "age" them to make up for the resting period. For me resting beans has 2 parts to it

1. Degassing

2. Flavour development

I don't pretend to know exactly what's happening, but further flavour(and aroma) development appears to be taking place during the period after roasting. I am also tempted to drink my beans too soon, but the flavour is always better when left for at least 3 or 4 days, for some beans longer.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Finer the grind, the quicker the coffee will oxidise - in the space of a few minutes - and degrade the quality. Coarser grinding will stand longer before succumbing to oxidisation. So you could grind for espresso straight out of the roaster leaving a few minutes for the CO2 to disperse but you wouldn't get round the oxidisation degradation. As for bean developing flavour-wise post roasting - is that definitively proven or anecdotal?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Rao for example prefers resting , but hypothesises that pre grinding and leaving for an hour may help prevent additional gassing that " resting " alleviates when making espresso .

It would be a guess as to how long you would need to leave pre ground for this to have ant effect ...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Loathed to say it but does the roast level play a part in how long or how much any flavour developement happens ?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Rao for example prefers resting , but hypothesises that pre grinding and leaving for an hour may help prevent additional gassing that " resting " alleviates when making espresso .
> 
> It would be a guess as to how long you would need to leave pre ground for this to have ant effect ...


If you grind for espresso and leave it for an hour you can be sure that it will have oxidised and the aroma and flavour elements will have noticeably degraded.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Finer the grind, the quicker the coffee will oxidise - in the space of a few minutes - and degrade the quality. Coarser grinding will stand longer before succumbing to oxidisation. So you could grind for espresso straight out of the roaster leaving a few minutes for the CO2 to disperse but you wouldn't get round the oxidisation degradation. As for bean developing flavour-wise post roasting - is that definitively proven or anecdotal?


In my experience it definitely happens, I don't know why it happens....just that it does. If you need definitive word and proof from enough people whose opinion you value....you might be waiting a long time, as this is something I've known for many many years (but nothing much gets said about it)...and proven to people who have visited me.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I think that means it anecdotal then .........

Which in itself isn't a bad thing and it's just that what Patrick asked


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

In my humble experience with Rave Signature blend, they tasted just OK after 7 days but then went on to blow my socks off after 10 days. Massive improvement by resting, could that be duplicated by grinding immediately after roasting?

Ian


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I think that means it anecdotal then .........
> 
> Which in itself isn't a bad thing and it's just that what Patrick asked


You have confused me now...what do you think it was I said?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> After many years roasting, I am of the conclusion that "degassing" mainly affects the pour,but not necessarily the flavour so grinding them and letting them sit does not really "age" them to make up for the resting period. For me resting beans has 2 parts to it
> 
> 1. Degassing
> 
> ...


But could these 2 parts not just be 2 sides of the same coin, high gas content making it harder to get brew water in, to wash flavour out? The pour is more relevant to percolation methods where you have a reasonably finite time span to extract & perhaps not so relevant to bean flavour per se? For cupping, I thought


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> But could these 2 parts not just be 2 sides of the same coin, high gas content making it harder to get brew water in, to wash flavour out? The pour is more relevant to percolation methods where you have a reasonably finite time span to extract & perhaps not so relevant to bean flavour per se? For cupping, I thought
> 
> I did initially wonder if indeed the gas content affected the shot in this way, but I don't believe it has a major effect, although it probably/must have some because of it's affect on the pour. Also for all I know the effect of resting is the opposite of what I might think a bit like the Phologiston/Oxygen theories, is something positive being developed or something negative being lost apart from CO2.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I think that means it anecdotal then .........
> 
> Which in itself isn't a bad thing and it's just that what Patrick asked


Similar to what EyeDee said, it's interesting some beans are best after only OK after x days, better after y, and best at z. Unless it's some placebo shit there's a massive amount of 'crowdsourced' data which supports flavour development


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Eyedee said:


> In my humble experience with Rave Signature blend, they tasted just OK after 7 days but then went on to blow my socks off after 10 days. Massive improvement by resting, could that be duplicated by grinding immediately after roasting?
> 
> Ian


I'm wondering if this is to do with degassing rather than flavour enhancement. Degassing is necessary for espresso as, if there is too much CO2 present in the grind, it will cause back pressure during extraction and affect the extraction yield and hence the flavour.

The only way to definitively test is by cupping, I would have thought - and doing it straight out of the roaster, after one hour, two hours etc. Cupping allows the CO2 to escape without affecting the extraction yield?


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

Roast level definitely seems to have a bearing on it - just finished a bag of Hasbean's Finca Argentina Washed Bourbon - opened 2 days post-roast and it was at its best between days 2-5 with a significant drop-off thereafter.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> I'm wondering if this is to do with degassing rather than flavour enhancement. Degassing is necessary for espresso as, if there is too much CO2 present in the grind, it will cause back pressure during extraction and affect the extraction yield and hence the flavour.
> 
> The only way to definitively test is by cupping, I would have thought - and doing it straight out of the roaster, after one hour, two hours etc. Cupping allows the CO2 to escape without affecting the extraction yield?


Well I've done all my tests over the years and I know what I believe at the moment, but will be interested to hear how others get on with testing.


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## Hal.E.Lujah (Aug 19, 2014)

Thanks for the replies guys, will be testing extensively tomorrow with grinding/roasting/pouring. Whilst it seems to be fairly anecdotal evidence as said before, I was taught that there is a flavour development and to be honest I guess I'm now putting that to the test. We have a roaster front of house and what I'm essentially experimenting with is the feasibility of one day having a roast that could be going to the barista right in front of the customers.

Also on this note, there is a kickstarter project for a machine that would roast the beans to grind them as part of the same project, and surely that indicates it is possible to get great flavour within same day of roasting.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Hal.E.Lujah said:


> Also on this note, there is a kickstarter project for a machine that would roast the beans to grind them as part of the same project, and surely that indicates it is possible to get great flavour within same day of roasting.


I am very suspicious of a lot of Kicktarter things, the phrase scamstarter always springs to mind..the project indicates a need to make money, but whether it indicates it's possible to get the "great flavour" out of just roasted beans, is debatable. I only have my beans on the day their roasted if I'm really desperate, usually I will drink tea instead.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Hal.E.Lujah said:


> Also on this note, there is a kickstarter project for a machine that would roast the beans to grind them as part of the same project, and surely that indicates it is possible to get great flavour within same day of roasting.


It certainly indicates that beans can be roasted & ground within a short space of time (after all people have been doing this for generations), but does it indicate "great flavour", especially with regards to espresso (which I guess is what you are aiming to brew)?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Certainly won't be for espresso. The excess CO2 will affect the extraction. With pour over, the CO2 can vent without affecting the process.


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

The Systemic Kid said:


> As for bean developing flavour-wise post roasting - is that definitively proven or anecdotal?


Certainly happens in my experience. Newly roasted coffee has an overwhelming papery flavour.


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## Hal.E.Lujah (Aug 19, 2014)

MWJB said:


> It certainly indicates that beans can be roasted & ground within a short space of time (after all people have been doing this for generations), but does it indicate "great flavour", especially with regards to espresso (which I guess is what you are aiming to brew)?


Yeah that's exactly the issue. The flavours on the beans we're working with at the moment are generally way too sour to even work with if we don't let them degass for a few days, which even then might be fine if we were just serving espresso tasting but when you're serving a regular customer base that primarily drinks it with milk... haha they'd all be asking if the milk had gone off.



The Systemic Kid said:


> Certainly won't be for espresso. The excess CO2 will affect the extraction. With pour over, the CO2 can vent without affecting the process.


That's the problem we're hoping to get around, or at least test the possibility of a way to lower the amount of CO2 in freshly roasted beans. Might not be possible but keen to try.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What's the beans like when you cup them or brew them then.....


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## Hal.E.Lujah (Aug 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> What's the beans like when you cup them or brew them then.....


When cupping them blind we always found the ones roasted that day massively inferior compared to ones we'd left in valve containers/bags.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Inferior in what way? .

Degassing or not degassing shouldn't play a part in taste for brewing or cupping .....

Resting for espresso yes ....

Anyway I think I might have seen you around though aren't you some kid of coffee consultant anyway ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Spazbarista said:


> Certainly happens in my experience. Newly roasted coffee has an overwhelming papery flavour.


Is that because the flavour isn't available from the bean, or because there is more CO2 in the beverage, or both? Sang Ho Park wrote an interesting post on his blog about using a paper filter in the bottom of the basket with very fresh coffee, to curb the effects of pulling shots with very freshly roasted beans...can't access it at the minute though...

If the CO2 impedes extraction, how can we compare freshly roasted but degassed coffee with the same coffee (same time since roast but with nominal CO2) to determine whether changes are due to "more flavour" present in the bean vs less of the flavour that's in the bean being accessible? Flirting with a "distinction without a difference" I know...;-)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Spazbarista said:


> Certainly happens in my experience. Newly roasted coffee has an overwhelming papery flavour.


You need to take it out the bag mate


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Hal.E.Lujah said:


> When cupping them blind we always found the ones roasted that day massively inferior compared to ones we'd left in valve containers/bags.


Totally agree with this.


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## oop north (Jun 23, 2013)

I have noticed very clearly the development of flavour over the first few days from roasting before I got the espresso machine, when using aeropress: very little flavour to start with and the first time it is worth trying is about three days post roast


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There are a few questions I always asked myself (as sometimes the results clashed with observation, experience and even science).


Is the CO2 gas in the beans after roasting, is it produced over time, or a bit of both?

How long do beans produce CO2 gas?

Is it the CO2 gas that makes extraction of non rested beans poor...are there other factors affecting extraction or is it a bit of both?

Why does coffee rested in a 1 way valve bag seem to taste better than coffee rested in other containers, or am I incorrect?

If I grind the coffee then bag it straight away...why does it still produce loads of gas, why do Wico (and others) produce 1 way valves specifically for ground coffee?

Is there an overly acidic taste in un-rested coffee...if so...how do we know this taste is from the CO2 and not from some other compound in the coffee?

Does resting add flavour, remove undesirable flavour or a bit of both?

What chemical changes go on in the bean after roasting?

Why does coffee smell of nothing much when it comes out of the roaster, but 5 days later just picking up ans squeezing a sealed bag of coffee with a one way valve can perfume the whole workshop?


These and many more, for me are interesting questions as to why coffee tastes better when rested and why short roast to cup times don't seem to work..


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ive brewed one of the best Chemex I ever had from coffee warm out the roaster, go figure!

TDS 1.27, 20% Extraction.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Ive drunk beans i have roasted after 1 day, didnt really taste bad, just got better over a few more days.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> There are a few questions I always asked myself (as sometimes the results clashed with observation, experience and even science).
> 
> 
> Is the CO2 gas in the beans after roasting, is it produced over time, or a bit of both?
> ...


Just some stabs here based on 'received wisdom' mostly...

1. It is my understanding that the CO2 is generated during roasting, decreasing with time after that.

2. Gradual release of CO2 after roasting.

6. Most folk attribute papery/bicarb type flavours to unrested coffee, acidic flavours are possibly more a by product of extraction being clamped by the CO2 content, rather than the taste of the CO2 itself?

"These and many more, for me are interesting questions as to why coffee tastes better when rested and why short roast to cup times don't seem to work.." ...for espresso?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Just some stabs here based on 'received wisdom' mostly...
> 
> 1. It is my understanding that the CO2 is generated during roasting, decreasing with time after that.
> 
> ...


OK a well thought out reply.

1. It is my understanding that the CO2 is generated during roasting, decreasing with time after that. It might be generated during roasting, but the coffee is getting pretty hot, you would think a lot of it would diffuse out pretty rapidly and the gas will be at a maximal state of expansion, when cooled you would think it would contract....reducing the "pressure" and of course the propensity of the CO2 to diffuse out of the coffee?

2. Gradual release of CO2 after roasting. Well it's under a lot less pressure than when at maximum temperature in the roaster (about 60% less pressure), so why does it want to come out and why so much of it and why for so long? Is continued production for some time (as a chemical process) a possibility, as the pressures increase in an unvented bag, it keeps coming out and can sometimes often split the bag open. you would think iof only the CO2 from roasting was there, the reduction in pressure on cooling followed by the increasing pressure in the bag would stop diffusion.

6. Most folk attribute papery/bicarb type flavours to unrested coffee, acidic flavours are possibly more a by product of extraction being clamped by the CO2 content, rather than the taste of the CO2 itself? This is possible, so is something being lost by resting, does this indicate further chemical processes beneficial to flavour, or development of others that complement them?

Something else to consider.....why do beans that have been left in an open container stop releasing CO2 much faster than ones in a 1 way valve bag....if this is just a case of trapped gas from the roasting process...it should make absolutely no difference at all...but it does?

P.S. I personally find the difference in taste affect all prep methods I commonly do. Also I am not saying it tastes bad when unrested, just that there is more flavour and better taste when rested.....unrested...it's more "bland"


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's a pity, an interesting discussion, seemed to go nowhere, or are people going back and doing some experimentation to validate their thoughts/observations?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's tricky to see what meaningful experiments could be done by the typical forum member.

How would you A/B freshly roasted coffee with no CO2 content against a nominal sample, both roasted & brewed in the same timescale?

How would you measure "flavour" & determine that there was more/less of it?

How would we determine, assuming nominal extraction, what changes in flavour were down to (oxidisation/staling, or CO2 reduction)?

I can steep coffee within a couple of days of roasting and get nominal extraction, there doesn't seem to be a massive hike in extraction thereafter & staling is a bigger concern than overextraction, so my feeling is that CO2 is more problematic for certain brew methods more than others.

Sounds like a job for a mass spectrometer.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> It's tricky to see what meaningful experiments could be done by the typical forum member.
> 
> Sounds like a job for a mass spectrometer.


I'm sure some simple experiments could be devised by most forum members to test the hypothesis. I have done many experiments over the years in just this area and I think the resourceful members of this forum could probably come up with more interesting and varied ones than me. I think that rather than a mass spectrometer, which presumably most members don't have access to and probably wouldn't tell us anything useful about the issue at hand (complex organic molecules and taste)....simpler experiments should allow us to come to some conclusions. The equipment required for an initial foray into the area is not complex and it would be nice to see peoples views validated, or possibly modified through experiment.


Green Beans & Roaster

Variety of preparation methods

Ability to cup samples

Basic knowledge of blind or double blind testing protocols (to use with friends)


It's probably best not to use coffee from a roaster, because you can't usually get it 1 hour or so after roasting.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Although obviously more subjective that scientific - I'm up for this as I want to see what freshly roasted beans out of the roaster cup like.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Sounds like a job for a mass spectrometer.

I been insulted many ways before but thats a new one ....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I think that rather than a mass spectrometer, which presumably most members don't have access to and probably wouldn't tell us anything useful about the issue at hand (complex organic molecules and taste).....


Isn't this is exactly what a mass spectrometer could tell us.

A variety of prep methods will only tell us how CO2 content affects extraction for that method, useful, but doesn't directly answer any questions about CO2 & "bean taste", just that "bean taste" may be obscured by CO2. FWIW I just did a Kone pourover with 3 day past roast beans, I overextracted them, they didn't taste papery/bicarb, just a little over/uneven.

Blind & double blind tests great, what is going to be your datum for the samples, to ensure a corresponding level of extraction & that CO2 level is the only difference between samples. Friends probably aren't the best test subjects, nor is anyone who has read this thread/is primed as to what the difference is/has an expectation of a particular result.

How are you going to remove CO2 from the test samples? Until you can do this & show that you have achieved it, I don't see any point in going further...we're still left with the observation that beans usually need some degassing (more or less depending on roast level/brew method) & flavour may change over time for reasons other than extraction yield specifically...but no better informed as to what those specific reasons are.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Isn't this is exactly what a mass spectrometer could tell us.
> 
> A variety of prep methods will only tell us how CO2 content affects extraction for that method, useful, but doesn't directly answer any questions about CO2 & "bean taste", just that "bean taste" may be obscured by CO2. FWIW I just did a Kone pourover with 3 day past roast beans, I overextracted them, they didn't taste papery/bicarb, just a little over/uneven.
> 
> ...


The OP had a question about lowest roast to cup times and how to reduce them.

I have a hypothesis (much of it tested) about what happens when coffee is rested...is it all about degassing, or are other things happening...this needs to be understood better to help answer the original question.

You can get some useful data simply using the sense of smell, which is much more sensitive that the sense of taste. This would eliminate many of the concernts about CO2, obscuring taste. So some experiments could be designed around smell. Other experiments can be designed around degassing and how to/can you eliminate CO2 quickly. The questions are also not just about CO2 and it's incorrect perhaps just to focus on that one thing...it's probably why there is not much focus on other chemical changes happening in the bean...which may be additive, or subtractive.

It is better initially to focus is on what we can do rather than what we can't do....we might find we can do quite a lot.



> How are you going to remove CO2 from the test samples? Until you can do this & show that you have achieved it, I don't see any point in going further...we're still left with the observation that beans usually need some degassing (more or less depending on roast level/brew method) & flavour may change over time for reasons other than extraction yield specifically...but no better informed as to what those specific reasons are.


You appear to be saying if we can't do this we can't do anything and can't learn anything....but I'm not sure that's right. Perhaps a forum is not the right place to discuss this sort of thing?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> You appear to be saying if we can't do this we can't do anything and can't learn anything....but I'm not sure that's right. Perhaps a forum is not the right place to discuss this sort of thing?


Not at all, I'm just saying that we can't really determine the effects of CO2 content specifically, unless we can test it against "no CO2" in a similar time frame (mitigating the effect of oxidisation). Traditionally, immersion methods have been used for short roast to cup times.

Sure we can find out useful stuff like recommended rest times for certain methods...but chemical changes in the bean though - unless we know what we're starting with & quantify what those changes are, how can they be attributed or related to tastings? We can relay our experiences of what does & doesn't taste good (valuable in itself) but how to move forward without understanding the drivers?

Here's Sang ho Park's blog post I mentioned earlier, scroll down to "Pucking Fresh Coffee"...

http://www.koreanbarista.com/


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

To me the release of CO2 over a period of time post roast suggests that some form of chemical reaction is taking place rather than simply the release of CO2 from the bean's cellular structure. Maybe we are looking at something along the same lines as ripening cheeses or ageing meats or wine or whisky etc? I also suspect that the CO2 locked in the cellular structure of the bean is far more soluble in water than the parts we actually wish to extract, thus making it harder to get a nominal extraction and that as the CO2 locked into the bean dissipates we have more room to actually extract what we desire from the bean, there is also most probably something else going on in the bean as it gives up it's CO2 over time, maybe it helps to push the oils nearer to the surface of the structure making them easier to extract that way as well?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Charliej said:


> there is also most probably something else going on in the bean as it gives up it's CO2 over time, maybe it helps to push the oils nearer to the surface of the structure making them easier to extract that way as well?


But do the oils extract at a linear rate during extraction? In percolation you can see & feel the viscosity of the stream get progressively thinner, suggests to me that the oils are predominantly extracted quite early on? Don't oils contribute to the non-dissolved solids in the cup, excluded from extraction yield?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

MWJB said:


> But do the oils extract at a linear rate during extraction? In percolation you can see & feel the viscosity of the stream get progressively thinner, suggests to me that the oils are predominantly extracted quite early on? Don't oils contribute to the non-dissolved solids in the cup, excluded from extraction yield?


I guess it all depends on how much of the oils are soluble in water or if they emulsify during the pour, I would guess that if they remain as liquids they won't go towards the none-dissolved solids..

Something else that is puzzling me about this process, is that anecdotally a lot of the beans we have received as part of DSOL, which are generally a darker roast just to state the obvious, have actually come into their own after a far longer resting period 2-3 weeks than you would expect.

Now as far as I understand the process, the darker the roast the more degraded the cell structure of the bean and the easier extract because of this, logic would dictate that they would also give up their CO2 at a faster rate than a lighter roast which keeps more of the beans structure intact and hence would need a shorter resting period yet the reverse seems to hold true when you look at posts regarding peoples experiences with differing beans at differing roast levels. This, to me, points at some other reaction also being part of the process. Maybe we need to rethink how we go about getting a good tasting extraction from older beans instead of simply trying to work to the same parameters we use when the beans are at their optimum?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Charliej said:


> I guess it all depends on how much of the oils are soluble in water or if they emulsify during the pour, I would guess that if they remain as liquids they won't go towards the none-dissolved solids..
> 
> Something else that is puzzling me about this process, is that anecdotally a lot of the beans we have received as part of DSOL, which are generally a darker roast just to state the obvious, have actually come into their own after a far longer resting period 2-3 weeks than you would expect.
> 
> Now as far as I understand the process, the darker the roast the more degraded the cell structure of the bean and the easier extract because of this, logic would dictate that they would also give up their CO2 at a faster rate than a lighter roast which keeps more of the beans structure intact and hence would need a shorter resting period yet the reverse seems to hold true when you look at posts regarding peoples experiences with differing beans at differing roast levels. This, to me, points at some other reaction also being part of the process. Maybe we need to rethink how we go about getting a good tasting extraction from older beans instead of simply trying to work to the same parameters we use when the beans are at their optimum?


The lipids in coffee are not water soluble, soluble components include caffeine, chlorogenic acids, trigonelline & nicotinic acid, soluble fibre etc.

If CO2 is a product of roasting, doesn't follow that there would be more CO2 in a darker roasted bean. Hence a longer rest time required? Sure the darker bean, when ground, may be easier to extract, but is the structure of the whole bean degraded enough to facilitate comparable/faster degassing over a lighter roast?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Roasted three batches this afternoon - one Malawi Gesisha and two Tanzanian AA - one fast ramped to first crack, the second having a slower ramp to first crack. Cupped one hour after roasts completed. Geisha tasted very flat and insipid. Fast ramped Tanzanian was a bit better. The second slower ramped Tanzanian was the best - some body and acidity. Surprised that the grinds didn't foam up that much in the bowls with the Geisha being the worst. Taste-wise, none were much cop. Will cup tomorrow and see if there is any improvement.


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

Just to prove the point to a coffee philistine, I got a batch of 125g of OBJ from green to the cup in just over fifteen minutes.

It tasted like shite but he was impressed - he's a Labour councillor now. I rest my case m'lud!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

You mean your coffee changed his politics! Wow, better be careful with it then! You're not "Workhouse" Coffee are you? That would be too funny!

I'm surprised he didn't defect to the 'green' party.


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

hotmetal said:


> You mean your coffee changed his politics! Wow, better be careful with it then! You're not "Workhouse" Coffee are you? That would be too funny!
> 
> I'm surprised he didn't defect to the 'green' party.


No. He was always left-leaning! He thinks a good cup of coffee is upgrading from regular Nescafé to Gold Blend!


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