# Bairro AltoAir



## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I've been using this the past couple of days. http://www.bairroalto.co.uk/product/altoair

It's basically a cone filter holder with thin strips of metal providing support for the filter. The theory is that the filter is surrounded by air rather than solid walls like a V60 or chemex which according to the blurb results in more consistent extractions.

I've been using a size 2 V60 filter (not yet tried chemex). Comparing the results to my size 1 plastic V60 (same parameters) the only difference i'm finding so far is that the extraction takes 60 sec longer in the AltoAir. My usual V60's (1 cup 225ml brew water) take approx 2mins:20 to 2:30. 3:20 on the AltoAir. I'm getting identical TDS/EY. So clearly the flow rate is slower in the AltoAir. I coarsened the grind on the AltoAir and got as expected a lower TDS but extraction time remained identical.

Tastewise the first AltoAir brew was simply stunning but i've been unable to repeat that on subsequent attempts so far even though TDS/EY have been identical(still good though). The standard V60's have actually been tasting more consistently good so far. Not enough brews to come to any conclusions.

Has anyone else tried one the AltoAir? I can't find any previous forum discussions. The only other reference i can find to it being used is that it was used by winner Sarah Anderson in the 2015 South West USA brewers cup to filter a polished immersion.

Design over substance?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If the brews are as good as the regular plastic then there is nothing wrong with a nice looking but if kit. Maybe more design and substance


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

It is not a unique idea, though:










This is the Iikone brewer

I would like to know how does contact-less brewer effect a temperature loss.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Slight difference in price tho 0_0


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Looks terrible (IMHO), too.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

@Step21, long shot, but are you using the same (Japanese) Hario papers in both brewers? Same pour regime?

Wire type cone holders are sometimes used in Asia, depending on how much of the brew exits through the filter wall you may have to adjust technique, to get a similar tasting extraction at the same EY. E.g. For a paper V60 I pour covering the whole bed in spirals, washing down the filter walls (Rao/Perger style), but if I do this with a Cafeor permanent filter, extractions taste uneven, but pouring straight down the middle for the Cafeor brings them both in line.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

PPapa said:


> I would like to know how does contact-less brewer effect a temperature loss.


Faster heat dissipation.

Slurry temp lowers quicker without walls.

Warm ceramic cools less than glass.

Glass cools less quickly than plastic.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

MWJB said:


> @Step21, long shot, but are you using the same (Japanese) Hario papers in both brewers? Same pour regime?


The filters are Hario V60 VCF-01-100W for the size 1 plastic cone and VCF-02-100W for the AltoAir. My pour technique is identical. Mostly down the middle with a little wash around the edges if any grinds are sticking.

I've been comparing a standard chemex brew with the filter on the glass against the filter suspended in the AltoAir - same parameters,pour technique as the V60. The AltoAir brews are consistently about 20 secs longer on average and slightly but noticeably lower on TDS than the standard chemex (about -0.05). Tastewise though, there is not a noticeable difference between the two.

Do the Japanese not use a similar brew method - woodneck or Nel (suspended cloth filter)?

I wouldn't say the extractions with the AltoAir are uneven - just not optimal or more consistent than using standard V60/Chemex. So far.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Deleted as hadn't properly read previous post before blathering.

Edit: On further investigation the 01 & 02 papers you mention are made in Japan & Holland respectively, a slower brew time has been observed with the Dutch papers, this may be relevant to your 01 & 02 variations? Maybe try a coarser grind but more brew water pulses with the Dutch papers?


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## tambu (Sep 7, 2015)

MWJB said:


> Deleted as hadn't properly read previous post before blathering.
> 
> Edit: On further investigation the 01 & 02 papers you mention are made in Japan & Holland respectively, a slower brew time has been observed with the Dutch papers, this may be relevant to your 01 & 02 variations? Maybe try a coarser grind but more brew water pulses with the Dutch papers?


The 02 filter from Holland horror! I bought some emergency 02s in Whittards recently and they were really weird - felt different, had V60 embossed into them and had a funny tab at the top. If they'd come from Amazon I'd have though they were fake! I subsequently panic bought the older style (i.e. the 01 filters but bigger, which are made in Japan).

Before anybody else panic buys, I actually contacted Hario about it and they assured me that it's just an "option" and that you can source either the Japanese or the Dutch 02 filters direct from them. The Dutch ones have an "-H" at the end, VCF-02-100W-H.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Interesting, thanks. The 02 V60 papers i have are indeed manufactured in Holland and the 01 in Japan. So more testing required!

Is there any reason given for the variance between the papers from Holland & Japan?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Different weave, I suspect the Dutch papers are a little more open. They'll clog easier with a fine grind, hence the need to coarsen up a tad.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Do you think the weave difference is intentional on Hario's part?

This is going to make online ordering difficult. Not many sites differentiate between Dutch & Japanese or possibly are even aware that there is a difference. My 01 filters are almost done.

I should be able to cut down the 02's and use them in the 01 plastic cone for comparison.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Maybe just want to offer an option? Better mark up?

The do indicate where "made in Holland" on the Hario UK site:

http://www.hario.co.uk/coffee/v60-filter-papers.html


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## tambu (Sep 7, 2015)

Step21 said:


> Do you think the weave difference is intentional on Hario's part?
> 
> This is going to make online ordering difficult. Not many sites differentiate between Dutch & Japanese or possibly are even aware that there is a difference. My 01 filters are almost done.
> 
> I should be able to cut down the 02's and use them in the 01 plastic cone for comparison.


The Hario website (http://www.hario.co.uk) offer both Japanese (VCF-02-100W) and Dutch (VCF-02-100W-H) 02 filters as separate products. The 01 doesn't have a Dutch option fortunately (that I've seen anyway). I've never found them much cheaper anywhere else, so I buy direct.


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## Tamper (Aug 27, 2015)

Hi,

I bought about 3 Alto Airs for my shop as I am into design and nice looking toys. Unfortunately I have not had good extractions from it. I too have tried all sorts of grind sizes and ratio alterations but I fear the problem is a result of temperature. To put it simply, it loses so much heat so rapidly that it has a negative effect on extraction. I have put them in the cupboard and swear by my Kalita Wave for consistency.

....maybe the summer months with less temperature fluctuation will get you closer to that first brew!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Dutch. Clog. Stands to reason! Sorry it's been one of those days...

Flippancy aside, I'm pretty amazed at how detailed you guys are about different paper filters, cone materials etc. I mean that genuinely. I have very little experience of anything other than French press or espresso but I don't think it would ever occur to me to compare one paper filter against another or taste the difference. That's the great thing about this forum - so much knowledge to dip into.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I cut down a Dutch 02 and brewed in the plastic 01 - same parameters as before 13g/225 meduim fine drip grind, same water, temp pouring regime etc...

So the 02 filter brew came in a time of 2:45 and was noticeably slower to drain as @MWJB predicted. A Japanese 01 filter would typically be 2:20. TDS went up by +0.02

However the brew was delicious!


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## themartincard (Feb 22, 2015)

I've been using the Dutch 02 filters in a Chemex since I ran out of Chemex square filters a few weeks ago. The same setting on the Rosco resulted in a total brew time over two minutes longer with the 02 filter compared to the Chemex, which I found incredible considering Tom from Sweet Maria's has advocated using V60 papers instead of the Chemex ones. Good to know the cause of it now!

From what I can tell, the giveaway between the Japanese and Dutch filters is that the Dutch ones are in shrink-wrapped packaging, whereas the Japanese one are in the same loose plastic packaging as the 01s.

I imagine the lower food miles on the Dutch filters might be worth taking into account if that sort of thing is a concern.


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## themartincard (Feb 22, 2015)

PPapa said:


> I would like to know how does contact-less brewer effect a temperature loss.





Glenn said:


> Faster heat dissipation.
> 
> Slurry temp lowers quicker without walls.
> 
> ...


This question was raised in an interview Daily Coffee News did with the iikone's creator:



> The heat loss was a real concern, but it appears that a normal Chemex evacuates the heat from a filter even quicker ... the final brew was on average 0.4 degrees Centigrade colder on the Chemex. So it may lead one to suspect that the open filter doesn't lose as much heat as one that touches glass.


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## tambu (Sep 7, 2015)

themartincard said:


> This question was raised in an interview Daily Coffee News did with the iikone's creator:


But it doesn't say what temperature the Chemex was, which is pretty vital...


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## tambu (Sep 7, 2015)

themartincard said:


> I've been using the Dutch 02 filters in a Chemex since I ran out of Chemex square filters a few weeks ago. The same setting on the Rosco resulted in a total brew time over two minutes longer with the 02 filter compared to the Chemex, which I found incredible considering Tom from Sweet Maria's has advocated using V60 papers instead of the Chemex ones. Good to know the cause of it now!


That's quite interesting. Is the vent being covered perhaps? As the chemex is effectively sealed by the filter above, if the vent is obscured at all by a collapsing wall of the filter then it reduces the flow rate considerably - that's why you are recommended to put the 3 layers of a regular chemex filter on the vent side. I find that chemex filters go much quicker in a v60 than they do in a chemex, but I assume that's because the brew can come out the sides where the spiral edges hold the paper away from the walls; i've not tried v60 in a chemex before - will give it a go if I have some spare beans.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

My V60 papers in a Chemex don't drain any slower than in a V60, for the same grind. An 02 paper won't sag & cover the vent completely.

Usually I find that Chemex papers drain slower than Japanese V60, at a grind setting that works for the V60 paper. The coarser the weave of the paper, then the coarser you need to grind to stop small particles clogging the paper & slowing the brew.

For dialled in brews in either, they both generally take the same time with whatever paper, for a given brew ratio & weight.


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## themartincard (Feb 22, 2015)

tambu said:


> That's quite interesting. Is the vent being covered perhaps?


The filter did collapse at one point, but I quickly stuck something in the spout to prevent the brewer from stalling for too long. The filter didn't sag the second time I used these filters, but the brew time was still over 6 minutes long. Weird. That being said, I've had the Rosco for over two years now, and it's certainly producing a lot more fines that it did when it was a few months old - but that doesn't necessarily explain the difference in brew times.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

After several weeks of use the AltoAir has now become my favourite pourover device for 1 cup output when matched with V60 Dutch filter papers. Brewing at around 58g/l and 203F i'm getting very nice results across all beans. I'm favouring a bloom then single pour, preferring the results over the multi pour regime.

The Brazen has gone into semi-retirement and only used when larger volumes are required.

Incidentally, the Alto Air can fit a Kalita Wave 185 filter and gives good results this way also.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

My AltoAir developed a fault. One of the thin welds near the holding tab failed.

I contacted Biarro and they sent me a new one. Great customer service.


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