# Extraction by numbers?



## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Big fan of the site and this is my first thread. I have gradually honed my skills to a level at which I am quite happy (always room for improvement) which is in no small part down to all the top advice on the forum.

However, I have learnt to realise that getting a great shot is down to visual and taste observations rather than obsessively extracting by numbers. I understand there is good method to weighing and timing shots, but at the end of the day we all have different taste preferences so a blanket rule cant satisfy everyone?

Having dialled in my grinder to the right ball park settings my method is to extract until just before blonding occurs then enjoy and adjust accordingly to my taste.

Is this something that others do or should I be counting out my coffee and will it make a difference?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

People that extract by numbers are assuming all factors are consistent and that the shot is being extracted evenly and the grind is perfectly consistent.

This would allow you to very accurately predict brew ratio in order to judge a coffee based on that ratio you find the best.

This is in the realms of the professional (or very proficient home user) who has access to very good equipment.

For the average home barista I think there are too many uncontrollable factors to allow us to be as precise but nevertheless these numbers (dose weight, liquid weight etc) provide us with good set points to aim for then we can evaluate based on taste and adjust as necessary.

If you are happy with your technique then you probably stand to improve further by monitoring numbers more closely in my opinion. I watch every second of extraction from a naked portafilter and stop when I see blonding but only because I'm still finding flaws in my technique so numbers wouldn't necessarily give me the whole picture.

Also congrats on first post being so interesting!


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Thanks fatboyslim. I'm always looking for ways to improve. The only thing more addictive than coffee is trying to improve the quality of it.

I guess I should look to start to take the next step and actively control the amount going in and the length of extraction. Or maybe just chart my results so I can have an idea of what I like the taste of best and then aim for that every time. I assume this will change with age of beans and the old - why is that different today - factor?

Is there a typical figure you aim for a double shot? Sounds like your a ristretto man so a shorter shot length than for a normal double? I have recently purchased a naked portafilter and am starting to play with them too.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

I like 15g (+/- 1g) coffee into 25-30g liquid espresso but extraction time changes based on age, type of bean and brew temperature. Think that is basically a normale, ristretto would have a shorter brew ratio.

If the pours from your naked PF are very even then you definitely should start monitoring weights and times but always evaluate by taste.

Also consider VST baskets (can buy from Has Bean or Square Mile) as these give better results from being accurate with dosing.

Temperature is also a huge factor, don't forget to preheat group head, portafilter and baskets.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Great advice. I think I will look into a VST basket. I will start to log my weights/times and see how that goes aiming for those figures. It will be interesting to see where I am at and what difference is made when I look closer at the numbers.

Temperature is an interesting one. I have a Gaggia Classic and usually poor out a cup full of water before waiting for the light to go off then on in an attempt to ensure a constant temperature each time.

I guess although taste is the main determinant of a good extraction, knowing how you got there can only be shown by logging numbers.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I believe there is no right or wrong. It's all about individual preference. My own preference is to take a scientific approach to my understanding of coffee, which includes extraction but also roasting, milk chemistry, agronomy etc. The reason I like it is that before I took a scientific approach I had very little idea how to fix it when things inevitably go wrong. And I find that when members in here have problems, we can best help them by encouraging them to do things like weighing etc. Communicating becomes easier and I do thing most people see immediate benefits.

But I certainly wouldn't say it's mandatory.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

...actually, it's a bit like my guitar playing. I managed to get a record deal when I was younger despite not reading music. But I'm now frustrated because I would have a much more interesting repertoire and enjoy it more if I could adopt the scientific approach of reading music.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Do you sometimes serenade your coffee beans in the hope that they will reveal their true flavour to you?

I read somewhere that plants respond to people singing to them.

I want to buy some coffee beans that have been sang to during their growth.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

I think that would be the perfect balance of science and art?


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

Da vinci was both.


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

Could he pull a good espresso though?


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

I like the precision methodology. It suits my mindset.

Go to any good old fashioned home cooking restaurant. You might get excellent food and every time it might be slightly different but it is still really good food. Go to a three michelin star restaurant and you will also get good food, but that food will be consistent with the guy sitting next to you or the other side of the room. These chefs cook and weigh everything to milligrams and timed to microseconds. There are room for both sides in harmony is there not?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Weighing beans and timing shots is as far as I'll go with it. I think these are the two main variables that are really simple to control.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Once you have the numbers, and it tastes right , then, by default, you have obtained the timing without trying. Just repeat again following the time as a guide , maybe check once again a few shot later that the output weight is the same....


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