# Sage DTP - Shot Timing Clarity



## RSRoss (Feb 3, 2018)

Afternoon all,

A quick question - I'm using a Mazzer Super Jolly grinder and Rave Signature Blend beans.

My target brew ratio is 1:2 and I dose 18g.

Is there any consensus over how long the "optimal" shot should take to get 36g out, including the pre-infusion time (which for me is 12-13 seconds...is that normal?) ?

Thanks


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

So many things can effect it, so in my experience there isn't really an optimal time. Also considering your taste will differ from mine and everyone else's.

I do think though that 12-13 seconds for first drip is quite a long time considering the DTP is preprogrammed for 10 sec PI, I believe. So I normally see first drips at around 10 seconds, but I'm not experienced enough to know whether those extra 2 secs will make a difference or not.


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## mat2317 (Dec 15, 2016)

I always aim for 30 seconds on mine, sometimes a few before / a few after depending on the coffee. Whatever tastes good! My pre-infusion is around 10 seconds.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The optimal shot will taste good, it won't always occur at the same time. Go by grind setting & taste. If the time is optimal & the taste is off, the time is clearly wrong.


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## RSRoss (Feb 3, 2018)

Thank you all for the replies.

I'm guessing then in order to get the pre-infusion time down, keep a consistent tamp but perhaps grind a bit coarser?

At the moment I'm getting the 36g in roughly 30 secs including pre-infusion but taste does seem a bit off.

Not sure if this makes a difference but I always pull the shot, then steam the milk afterwards...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RSRoss said:


> Thank you all for the replies.
> 
> I'm guessing then in order to get the pre-infusion time down, keep a consistent tamp but perhaps grind a bit coarser?
> 
> ...


In what way is the taste off? Are you tasting it as espresso, or after adding milk?


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## RSRoss (Feb 3, 2018)

MWJB said:


> In what way is the taste off? Are you tasting it as espresso, or after adding milk?


I'd say there's a sourness there. Tasting both on its own, then with milk. Naturally with milk it's more palatable but still sour undertones. I know this usually indicates this is under-extracted... so grind finer and keep same 1:2 ratio which I guess will mean time being more than 30 secs total?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you desperately need a 1:2 ratio, then, yes, you have no option but to grind finer.

Going over 30s isn't a problem...it's not even a 'thing'.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Sound like the sort of thing you may get from that bean to me. Couple of quotes



> *Espresso* - Sweet and well balanced with hints of nuts. Hints of citrus as it cools.


Tastes are far more noticeable when a drink has cooled but that doesn't mean that some wont notice a taste when the drink is hot.



> *Black Filter / Cupping* - Rich acidity and medium body. Caramel flavours with a hint of nuts. A great all day drinking coffee.


Then a summary



> Smooth and balanced, this blend carries chocolate, caramel, almond, hazelnut and gentle citrus notes


From their comments it sounds like it's at it's best in a flat whites and that suggests a pretty strong mix of beans.

One of the problems with the web is that people are inclined to take no notice of the manual.







The DTP one is a bit lacking really as no mention of doubles being 60ml and singles 30. ml can be read as grams. This is what it suggests









So with your 18g in they are suggesting 60g out. The ratio is over 3 at 30sec. If you are weighing out the 30 sec is likely to vary but in real terms you could use any time you like. All that matters is taste. 30sec is a good time to aim for. Some are known to use 40 - having seen a certain ladies video







I wonder if that''s to leave time to froth the milk.

I'd suggest that with milk you try the ratio Sage suggest and on the way there also try a ratio of 2.5. Maybe one even over 3 say 4. This way you can get an idea how the bean behaves. You can also try truncating the shot, in other words terminating them of at 20sec.

If your trying to drink the shot directly as an espresso best ask some one else. I can't imagine anyone drinking the shots I put into a 300ml americano. The shot is 35ml from 13.5g. It would be too strong. On the other hand there are people about who will sit down to a Sikh curry and ask for a bottle of tobasco to pour over it.They are past my limit really as they come. Maybe you could see what you can do with the single. Like the BE it probably wont be that easy a basket to use.

John

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## Tonino (Mar 26, 2018)

I am doing 15g in and 54g out all that for 29 seconds including 10 sec pre infusion. Drinking as espresso on its own taste really good, and it's not too strong. For latte and cappuccino I use 10g ground Lavazza decaf and pressurised single basket, time around 25sec probably 45g coffee, add some steamed milk and taste absolutely amazing.

Cheers


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I think a certain IMS competition basket is popular for DTP and milk based drinkers. Suspect it holds a lot of coffee. Bit of a problem though. The rim has too large a diameter to fit the machines so has to be reduced. It seems some do this carefully with pliers. I have a lathe so have filed a different basket down on that to fit. @joey24dirt can probably provide details on how much it holds, which IMS basket it is etc. There may be a modifications service around as well.

John

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## RSRoss (Feb 3, 2018)

I've now tried pulling the shot aiming for slightly over a 1:2 brew ratio, coming in at around 35 secs total time. The taste when in a milk based drink is better with no sourness.

Given that my previous shots were pretty much bang on 1:2 at around 30 secs with a sourness I could detect with milk, does this indicate it being "under extracted"?

Is the fact the shot is running for longer with more water balancing out the taste as it's hard to get my head around there now being more overall coffee vs milk in the drink, yet the taste seeming more balanced. Hope that makes sense!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Yes, sourness is most likely due to under-extraction.

Pulling a slightly heavier shot can balance the shot because extraction is driven by the amount of water you push through the puck, more water more extraction (though at extremes this makes a weaker shot). If you have a higher extraction, you have more dissolved coffee in the cup...it's then just a question of how much water & milk you also have.

To me, balance is much more preferable than strength, as long as the drink has enough intensity to be enjoyable.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It's a problem Too many quotes / metions of under and over extraction and 1 to 2 in some seconds that might be 25 or 30. People need to forget it and adjust to taste.

I basically drink origin beans and avoid blends. Not posh boasting etc it just what I decided to do. It didn't take long for me to find out that each type of bean needs some ratio to give the taste it's supposed to have and it's very often not 1 to 2, it's usually higher. However say some one finds they don't like that taste or the balance of it - change the ratio.








No point mentioning this really as people will be scared about going away from 1 to 2. I mean it's mentioned so often it must be correct. Or must it. Sage of course must be wrong. In a sense they are after a fashion as beans and their needs vary.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> It's a problem Too many quotes / metions of under and over extraction and 1 to 2 in some seconds that might be 25 or 30. People need to forget it and adjust to taste.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Forget 1:2 by all means, but under-extraction influences the taste, so to balance the taste of under-extraction, you extract more (grind finer &/or longer brew ratio) .


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Forget 1:2 by all means, but under-extraction influences the taste, so to balance the taste of under-extraction, you extract more (grind finer &/or longer brew ratio) .


Wouldn't disagree at all. Personally I change quantity, stick to 30 sec and adjust ratio but I can change doses via basket size changes.. At some point if the time drifts too much I then adjust the grinder. Bean age or what ever. I'd agree that people need to start with some aim and that may as well be 1 to 2 but the comments in that area tend to prevent people from moving away from it. Sage come up with an entirely different number. The fact that they designed the machines and know how they work should at least tempt people to try them.

Yet another number has been mention on here. 1 to 2.6. Also 40 sec shots. 6bar brewing on a Sage DB, People don't find out about these things without trying them. Sage DTP and BE, they may be brewing at 15 bar. That is certainly the case on the BE. Some one mentioned different grinder setting for different machines All Sage machines have pre infusion. Some don't. It's basically stupid to say that the ratio must be 1 to 2 and some specific time but pundits / web etc do.

John

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## Nick1881 (Dec 18, 2018)

Just to add my pre-infusion time is always about 12 seconds on my DTP. I measure out 18g of beans and grind them, giving the SGP a little tap will normally result in getting 18g of ground coffee. I grind at 12 but find I end up moving down to 14 as the beans age over 2 weeks or so. Then I time from me starting the shot and get 36-40g out in around 30 seconds. I'm not sure how accurate the lines are on my little shot glass but it reads most often 44ml, sometimes a little more. I drink Americano so top up with hot water and add a splash of milk. Seems to be better than anything I've had from Costa/Starbucks so I'm quite happy. I'm no coffee tasting expert but it's good enough for me.

I'm tempted to buy a Niche though, just to see if that makes any difference, just not sure I would be able to tell.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I did a lot of weighing in on an SGP as well. Very accurate but I only did it on beans I was trying. Tried the same with the bean I normally use which is oily and sticky and after about 20 shots the exit from the grinds chamber choked up so I sold it on warning the buyer about this aspect. In some ways with beans like that it may be better with the hopper on. Oddly I ran several kg hopper on using the grinder built into the BE without any problems at all, no clumps either. Problem then is adjusting the timer to keep a constant dose. With this bean once it had settled down it just needed a tiny touch on the timer knob maybe once a week due to trying to make very small fractions of a gram adjustment. Daily for a while as it settled down.

I suspect you would see a taste change with Niche. Maybe a stronger drink as well. I can't compare with the grinder in the BE at the moment. With the bean I am using I'm getting the impression that Niche will need pretty thorough cleaning now and again. Not sure yet.

I've changed machine and grinder so hard to really compare what i was making via the BE. The DB needed more coffee for instance via a mazzer mini and probably via a Sage grinder as well. Niche for some reason is better with 1/2g less grinds. A surprisingly small amount for a rather noticeable change. However the burrs aren't by any means run in yet. - The pain of new grinders and that didn't seem to have any effect at all on either of the sage grinders I have used.

John

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## matt0176 (Mar 24, 2019)

I read somewhere that the time of pre-infusion should be counted as half. ie. pre-infusion 10s, means it equal to 5s brewing time.

Cannot confirm if it is true, I am new


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

matt0176 said:


> I read somewhere that the time of pre-infusion should be counted as half. ie. pre-infusion 10s, means it equal to 5s brewing time.
> 
> Cannot confirm if it is true, I am new


Lots of opinions out there but what logic means its half time.. Pump goes on, water hits coffee, extraction starts.

Keep it simple, time from pump on.

Or don't but its really hard to talk a common, simple, language if the language isn't common and simple.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Half or double the time, as long as it's a reference for your recipe with your equipment and beans you use, it doesn't matter. In the end, it will be 27s (e.g. 10/2+22) rather than 32s (e.g. 10+22).

Hitting 18g in, 36g out in 32s is not a universal recipe, just a ballpark starting figure.


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