# Help diagnosing my extraction (video included)



## NitJay (May 18, 2020)

Hi all,

Wondering if I could get some expert advice on my extraction



Gaggia Classic 2011 - OPV 9 bar - Stainless shower plate holder - standard shower screen (tried IMS before this it just doesn't work, water flow is so uneven)


Naked Portafilter


Happy Donkey Costa Rican beans (about 3 weeks old)


Sage Grinder Pro finest setting (1 - inner adjustment set to standard 6)


17g in 14g Gaggia Classic Double Basket


WDT using pin


Motta leveller & Motta tamper used










To my untrained eye, this started well but then ended up being too fast. I do struggle to detect anything other than sour in most of my shots apart from the odd one or two that were definitely bitter not sour.

But I'd really appreciate any opinions on this - I do plan to do a training course at some point post COVID.

Thanks again,


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## AJP80 (Feb 29, 2020)

I'm no expert on espresso and I'm sure others will chime in, but to my untrained eye that pour looked bad for a number of reasons. I don't know the weight of your shot but the pour looked slow. It looked very thin with most of the extraction happening early on. How have you been storing your beans? Could they be stale?


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## NitJay (May 18, 2020)

The beans are stored in a Coffee Gator stainless steel tub, I only take them out to grind one shot at a time. I've noticed in the last few days that my espresso is getting a bit 'oily', I've just checked again and the beans got to me exactly 1 month ago. Would this be stale beans?

There's definitely a lot for me to learn here, so I really appreciate the input.
I've spent most of my time since getting into home espresso learning the internals of the Classic (had two to strip and rebuild) and now realise I haven't spent enough time learning about the most important bit.

Thanks for feedback!


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

Are you not weighing your output ?

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I think the early start and off centre cone together indicate channeling. Dosing less might help but probably some preparation issues too like uneven tamping.

The shot weight is an important thing to know rather than volume.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Id go back to the original pf , go one step coarser and weigh out pull longer 17/18g in and aim for 40 or so out in 25 to 30s ish


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Firstly, DEFINITELY stop single dosing with the sage grinder.

When you SD with the sage grinder and as in your case get super fine on the grind you get a tonne of fines and boulders (very small and very large particles) this completely messes up your extraction and does what you see here. 
You have channelling going on, you have fines migrating and blocking the basket holes. (All based on eye, cant be certain obviously)

This is just my opinion, but I would definitely try putting more that 2-3 shots worth in the Sage hopper and try again.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

> 33 minutes ago, NitJay said:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> ...


 Scales...


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## NitJay (May 18, 2020)

Great feedback, thank you.

I'll stop dosing with the sage. I like a V60 brew in the afternoons which is why I dose with it as I use much lighter beans for that. Perhaps I'll ask for some bean advice for something that ticks both boxes.

I sometimes weigh output, but didn't here as the last few were about right 36g in ~30secs, but this seemed way off. I'll do another one later, will aim for 17g in and 40 out as suggested.

What's the benefit of switching back to standard PF - is it easier? I used the naked one to get an idea of what was going on in the puck.

Also - when using scales do you have any tips for not making a mess? I have to remove drip tray to fit my scales (Here)







under and end up with water/grounds all over everything.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

NitJay said:


> 17g in 14g Gaggia Classic Double Basket


 If this is really a 14g basket, (I'm totally unconvinced manufacturers have a standard coffee to measure a basket's size) then +3g is pushing it. My classic arrived second hand with some baskets - I'm guessing they are the originals but it's possible they are not but this is a photo comparing it against against an 18g VST on the left. I usually find the 17-17.5 g in the VST is about right for me. these baskets are the same height and I'd probably drop to 14-15g to start with using the other basket.










The old 5p test in the PF will tell you if 17g is ok for the coffee you are using.



NitJay said:


> Also - when using scales do you have any tips for not making a mess?


 Assuming mess is - "coffee spraying off the PF mess" - not the other messes I'm quite capable off ???? - I mostly make lattes / flat whites but even with an espresso i'll make it into a cup which fits on the low profile scales under the naked PF. If it's an espresso cup I'll put something under the scaled to lift the cup higher - Fireworks stays in the cup mostly - the drop is shorter, and you can see the evidence - in the cup.

Good luck and it would be useful to see how you are preparing as well as what happens. ????


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## NitJay (May 18, 2020)

Next espresso I make I'll show the entire process (not quite sure how to film it).

I don't often have an issue with coffee spurting from the naked pf. Possibly because the baskets are so full?

I'll drop down to 16g and test at that amount with a 5p too. @Agentb would you recommend upgrading the baskets?

I like to taste my coffee quite strongly through the milk so wonder if going down in amount will make it a bit weak for me?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

NitJay said:


> Next espresso I make I'll show the entire process (not quite sure how to film it).
> 
> I don't often have an issue with coffee spurting from the naked pf. Possibly because the baskets are so full?
> 
> ...


 You can't just add as much coffee as you want to a basket, you need to make sure the puck isn't disturbed by the shower screen when it's locked in and it should have room to expand. A 15g:30g shot will be the same strength as 20g:40g, you'll just have less of it. I use less than 3:1 ratio for a flat white e.g 40g espresso to 110ml milk approx. Some will cut through milk more than others but at the end of the day the easiest way to alter the strength of a milky drink is to dial in the espresso so it tastes good and then add the appropriate amount of milk.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

NitJay said:


> Next espresso I make I'll show the entire process (not quite sure how to film it).
> 
> I don't often have an issue with coffee spurting from the naked pf. Possibly because the baskets are so full?
> 
> ...


 A video is good but a photo or two helps - as you can see there are quite a few variables. If you get spurting from under the basket that is channelling - anywhere else something is very wrong with gasket seals probably. As Rob1 mentions you need to have some head-space to allow the coffee to expand as it gets wet.

I have two VST baskets a 20g and 18g, and i have measured the flow rate as being about about 30% better through the VST (just pouring water - not a great test but the holes are is about 30% more so it makes sense.) My motivation at the time of buying was i wanted a slightly larger shot but as a plus I also found i could grind much finer and enjoy longer shots (about 40s) the 20g is usually for coffees i struggle with (Plan B). They are not expensive, and they keep their value to some extent as long as you keep them clean. I'd rather upgrade a basket than a shower screen if i had to choose.

Another option is use less milk and a smaller cup. Sometimes some coffees just work better in smaller doses with the stuff you have. 👍


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## NitJay (May 18, 2020)

Thank you! I will try again today, with pics of the prep and will weigh the shot.


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## NitJay (May 18, 2020)

OK, here is try number two from today. Weighing the shot.

16g in aiming for 36g out (keeping same ratios as suggested 17 - 40g).

You can see I overshoot a bit, but still.

Same problem I think - it's too slow to begin with, then starts to gush a bit.

What do you think?


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

After your tamp there seems to be quite a lot of grinds around the sides of the basket.

I found going from a 58mm to a 58.4mm tamper to greatly improve the consistency of my shots.

Maybe the edge of the puck is where the issue is, I'm no expert though just an observation.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Bit of channeling. Grind looks a bit too fine.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> Bit of channeling. Grind looks a bit too fine.


 This is in part, well all, the consequence of the sage grinder. It's a grinder that can perform ok with some beans/roasts, but gets 'found out' with others, particularly lighter roasts or beans like Pacamaras.

You end up grinding finer and finer because the grind is so inconsistent that you get tonnes of boulders and fines. Then as you grind finer it gets more inconsistent, so you end up with dust and boulders which means channeling galore.

Sage machines try and get around this by up-dosing (Barista pro recommends 19-22g!) and deep tapered basket. 
The result is often reduced channeling.

I don't even bother to use the Sage grinder anymore as I have a mignon. The espresso side of the sage machine is actually very good. It's really a shame you have to jump to the dual boiler to get away from the grinder


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## NitJay (May 18, 2020)

I did notice that I some serious clumps before using WDT to try and remove them, takes ages though.

@TomHughes so if I can't dose with this and it has trouble with lighter beans (which my wife likes especially), what grinder would people recommend that can easily be switched between grind sizes and can be used for dosing? Happy for 2nd hand as I like refurbishing things anyway.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

NitJay said:


> I did notice that I some serious clumps before using WDT to try and remove them, takes ages though.
> 
> @TomHughes so if I can't dose with this and it has trouble with lighter beans (which my wife likes especially), what grinder would people recommend that can easily be switched between grind sizes and can be used for dosing? Happy for 2nd hand as I like refurbishing things anyway.


 The Niche can switch between grind sizes and be used for different beans easily.

I didn't want to blame the grinder specifically but yes, the fines produced can be a problem. It's not so much you get channeling because of the fines but they end up in the cup. They can also clog basket holes and cause a bit of channeling. Increasing the dose and using a coarser grind does help prevent this but so does increasing ratio from 1:2 to 1:3 or 1:4. People always recommend a 1:2 ratio even though the grinder isn't likely to be capable of achieving a normal-to-high EY at that strength without either getting silt in the cup or channeling. So coarser grind, same dose, higher ratio, sameish time or coarser grind bigger dose, same ratio, sameish time. Of course there's a limit to the dose size and I think bigger doses are harder to extract...so probably the best solution is a higher ratio.


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