# At last!



## Wisey

Finally, the journey begins.........


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## lhavelund

Fantastic! Congrats on the setup.


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## 24774

Very nice Wisey, congrats!


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## Wisey

I'm relieved!

Got a cheap distributor coming in a couple of weeks, just waiting for airscape to restock then I'm done - for the time being!

Gona give it its first run tomorrow


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## Wisey

So, had a few tries tonight - unsuccessful but interesting!

I had no idea where to start with the grinder & had it far too course, was coming out in 10 seconds! Tried a few more times adjusting it in small steps but it didn't change the time at all!

made massive changes but then the wouldn't even grind, next try the grinder whirred & the beans popped about but didn't grind. Had a look in the grinder & there was a bit of ground coffee & stuck bean

is it simply clean it out & go again?

how do I get to the burrs?


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## Blue_Cafe

I haven't used one @Wisey but I've read that these work best with some hopper load.

Try that before getting to the burrs?

Edit: did you read all of the instructions?


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## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

yeah read all the instructions.....started making small adjustments like it said but the time didn't change from 10 seconds!

so I made a massive change & then didn't grind at all (made a faint whirr sound).....changed backwards a bit and the motor whirred & beans popped about but didn't grind at all..

I used 18g of beans each time, worked fine the first 4 times?


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## Blue_Cafe

Ooh.

Perhaps:

In making a massive adjustment, you jammed the burrs together. Perhaps in backing them off, your beans are just bouncing off it.

Suggest you might wind back what you did. Fill the hopper and try again. This time, just grind a small amount into your hand and change progressively using your eye as judgement. I think these grinders like to be adjusted with the burrs spinning so there is that.

Also, Lidl sell 1kg beans for a £5 and this may be a more economical way to get near where you need to be! :classic_biggrin:

Best of luck


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## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - There is a screw underneath the Eureka badge you should be able to lift off with a fingernail but you shouldn't need to.

Are you definitely adjusting the dial slowly with the motor spinning? Agree on the cheapo kg of beans and have a play around.

Back off by a full couple of turns, Hoover both ends and see if the grinder runs. With it un plugged and switched off gently turn the brass central nut clockwise and adjust tighter until you can feel it begin to touch metal to metal. Back it off say a half or full turn and then play around moving it finer/coarser about a 12th of a turn and check the output consistency.

You can jam big and fine chunks around the burrs which just stop the motor turning and safety overload to stop it. If it is well jammed, you need to take the top off and open the burr chamber to clear it.


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## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

make adjustments whilst the grinder is working?

Lidl beans - that is a good idea my friend....


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## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

ah yeah luckily I saw a video late last night about removing the badge thanks though as I'd never have found that!

I did it in slow adjustments but did it with it stopped, so I'll try with it spinning

It's just because It's sooooo far off I started doing small turns (coming out in 10 seconds) but the small turns made no difference)


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## cuprajake

are you timing from turn of the knob?

i found 17g to work well in my sage dtp.

dont discount the importance of basket prep also


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## Wisey

@Cuprajake

no I timed from when the first drip of coffee came out....

ive been doing 18g basket prep - making sure it's clean, dry....what else?


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## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - Never ever adjust finer with the grinder stopped, you can jam the motor or damage it if you do.

There is about 2-4g of old grinds in the chamber, you need to purge a few grams to clear it as otherwise it's mixed in with the new finer stuff.

The dial is super sensitive, tiny adjustments should have a decent impact when you are in the tight range. Look around 25-45 seconds total time from hitting the button, going from 10s after first drips would be less than a 1/4 turn I reckon.


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## Longmanh

Hey @Wisey, congrats on the new arrivals.

I have exactly the same setup as you so hopefully might be able to help.

Start the timer from when you turn the knob as water will be making contact a fair bit prior to the first few drips coming out. So with that in mind, espresso should start coming out in approx 10 seconds and you then want the shot to finish when the volume hits the 36g mark (presuming your weighing your shots which you definitely should). 😉 This is based on a ratio of 2:1 but some roasters will actually give you the recipe for espresso shots.

You want the 36g to be out in 25-30s roughly as well.

On the Eureka grinder, I usually start at just under 2 for freshly roasted coffee and end up just under 1.5 for coffee that's 2-3 weeks old.

When first setting up the grinder, I used the 'chirping' method, so turn the machine on with no coffee in so the burrs are spinning freely. Adjust finer until you hear a very faint chirp. This indicates the most fine setting you can go to so make a note of where the dial is at this setting. Don't worry, you wont damage the burrs.

Then make a small adjustment in the coarser direction and try and add some coffee to grind. Then dial in from there.

When the machine is new, the burrs won't be seasoned so it will take quite a few double shots for the grinder to settle in.

Let us know how you get on and good luck. 👍


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## Longmanh

Ps. I single dose every cup and never had a problem adjusting the grind setting when stopped. Adjusting with beans in the hopper can cause problems as the beans can get jammed if you go finer. Going coarser might be ok but I probably wouldn't risk it.


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## NJD1977

Longmanh said:


> Ps. I single dose every cup and never had a problem adjusting the grind setting when stopped. Adjusting with beans in the hopper can cause problems as the beans can get jammed if you go finer. Going coarser might be ok but I probably wouldn't risk it.


There's nothing physically stopping you going finer with the motor stopped but you wont hear the burrs starting to touch, so if you tighten too much you'll lock the burrs, then when you do start up you'll damage the burrs or stop the motor.

I just spin the motor and gradually dial down, and it's pretty clearly heard when the burrs start to touch.


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## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

ah ok, luckily I only made like 4 cups adjusting it when it's stopped.

to begin with I was sooooo far out hence why I did a massive adjustment.....thing is I'm now still no closer, still came out so fast & 10 seconds from when first drip came out


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## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - Empty hopper, run the machine and adjust the burrs until they chirp slightly. Back off a 12th of a turn, try a shot and repeat until you don't choke your machine. Shouldnt be that hard to find the sweet spot.

Post a video of your workflow as it could be that.


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## cuprajake

Wisey said:


> @Northern_Monkey
> 
> ah ok, luckily I only made like 4 cups adjusting it when it's stopped.
> 
> to begin with I was sooooo far out hence why I did a massive adjustment.....thing is I'm now still no closer, still came out so fast & 10 seconds from when first drip came out


 stop counting from the first drip, your machine has pre infusion so its wetting the coffee as soon as you turn it on

so your 10s shot is actually a 20s shot!!!!!


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## Wisey

@Cuprajake

Ah ok, most videos I've seen start the timer from when the first drip starts so I thought that's when you start the timer...But, even though it's been 20s then not 10s, it's still been very bitter & undrinkable!


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## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

great thanks for the tips....

ps - what's my workflow?! How the coffee is coming out?


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## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - I think you should check out some of the beginner threads on dosing, distribution, tamping, pour time versus weighing in and out.

Loads of useful details in other people's videos, takes a while to get the hang of it but the fun is in the finding out 😉


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## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

yeah I've watched videos about timings - watching Hoon he starts his timer when the first drip comes out, so I didn't think to start the timer when I first turn the handle to include the pre infusion...

im gona be trying 17-20g doses which seems the ideal range?

I think I've got the distribution & tamping ok to start with, & going to aim for a 1:2 ratio when things get consistent


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## Wisey

Longmanh said:


> Hey @Wisey, congrats on the new arrivals.
> 
> I have exactly the same setup as you so hopefully might be able to help.
> 
> Start the timer from when you turn the knob as water will be making contact a fair bit prior to the first few drips coming out. So with that in mind, espresso should start coming out in approx 10 seconds and you then want the shot to finish when the volume hits the 36g mark (presuming your weighing your shots which you definitely should). 😉 This is based on a ratio of 2:1 but some roasters will actually give you the recipe for espresso shots.
> 
> You want the 36g to be out in 25-30s roughly as well.
> 
> On the Eureka grinder, I usually start at just under 2 for freshly roasted coffee and end up just under 1.5 for coffee that's 2-3 weeks old.
> 
> When first setting up the grinder, I used the 'chirping' method, so turn the machine on with no coffee in so the burrs are spinning freely. Adjust finer until you hear a very faint chirp. This indicates the most fine setting you can go to so make a note of where the dial is at this setting. Don't worry, you wont damage the burrs.
> 
> Then make a small adjustment in the coarser direction and try and add some coffee to grind. Then dial in from there.
> 
> When the machine is new, the burrs won't be seasoned so it will take quite a few double shots for the grinder to settle in.
> 
> Let us know how you get on and good luck. 👍


 Hi mate, thanks so much for the reply, be great to hear from you having the same setup.

so first mistake yeah I've been starting the timer from when the first bit of coffee comes out as that's what I thought you do (watching say Hoon, I'm sure he does that)..

I am weighing in & out for sure aiming for exactly the Gram & time ratio you state

'ok the eureka grinder' - I think this is a little bit where I'm struggling...obviously there's only like 5 steps on it but actually more than 5 full turns of the dial? So when you say you have it on 2, this could be after 1/2/3/4/5 full turns fine/coarse? Does that make sense?

reading your initial chirping dialling in method I will definately be trying this so thanks again....


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## cuprajake

Yeah hoon does it incorrectly.

18g in that basket is too much, like i say i found 17g to be perfect.

Id also go for 40g out over about 30 to 35s

So try that.

Try to change one thing at once.


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## Longmanh

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah hoon does it incorrectly.
> 
> 18g in that basket is too much, like i say i found 17g to be perfect.
> 
> Id also go for 40g out over about 30 to 35s
> 
> So try that.
> 
> *Try to change one thing at once*.


 Great tip about changing just one variable at a time. Definitely do this. 👍


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## Wisey

I've tried to alter the grinder turned on with no beans...

when looking up the chute I can see this blockage - this could be the issue?? Why has this happened?

I've removed the top burr & there was a build up of coffee so I've cleaned it...got to bottom burr & again a lot of coffee on the burr so going to clean that as I'm there (struggled to get it off as it just turns when I try unscrew it! Guessing i need to hold it still with pliers whilst I unscrew?)......

Does anyone know how I get to the blockage in the chute? Will I get to it when I remove bottom burr or do i need to remove the screw just above the start button? See pic 3 Below

@Longmanh any tips?

thanks


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## TomHughes

Those are the de-clumpers causing the blockage. I'd remove them.

Just undo the rear screw, take off the front panel with the two top screws and unscrew and remove the little metal de-clumper strip. Easy.


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## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - I wouldn't unscrew the the small machine screws holding on the burrs themselves, it can be a pain to get them back in level and aligned properly. Just a stiff brush, scraping with a toothpick and a hoover out should be fine.

As Tom said you don't need to in order to clear the chute. The anti clumping bits are good at their job but can get a bit blocked if you are going espresso fine -> super chunky boulders -> espresso fine.


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## Longmanh

Wisey said:


> I've tried to alter the grinder turned on with no beans...
> 
> when looking up the chute I can see this blockage - this could be the issue?? Why has this happened?
> 
> I've removed the top burr & there was a build up of coffee so I've cleaned it...got to bottom burr & again a lot of coffee on the burr so going to clean that as I'm there (struggled to get it off as it just turns when I try unscrew it! Guessing i need to hold it still with pliers whilst I unscrew?)......
> 
> Does anyone know how I get to the blockage in the chute? Will I get to it when I remove bottom burr or do i need to remove the screw just above the start button? See pic 3 Below
> 
> @Longmanh any tips?
> 
> thanks


 Hmmmm.... I haven't experienced that I'm afraid so can't really provide much guidance here.

Did you manage to sort it?


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## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

@TomHughes

are the declumpers the bits of metal up the chute, look a bit like 2 razor blades?

ive picked up there & got some ground coffee out but still some up there...

tom - not sure what you mean take the front panel off....it doesn't come off?


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## cuprajake

Get some air up there, blow it out.


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## Wisey

@Cuprajake

tried using the hoover to suck it out but obviously the nosel doesn't go in the chute?


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## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - Carefully so not to chew your fingers off by getting stuck in the burrs, put the hoover nozzle on the top and the bottom with the motor running.

The small screw in your pics holds the front on, should let you take the front panel off worst case. There will be a super delicate ribbon type electrical wires between the front panel etc. and main doser body, very easy to damage them if you rush it. That lets you get at the clump crushers but you really shouldn't need to.


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## Wisey

I have cleared the chute using a wooden skewer....it got some out..

I ground some beans but it only ground about 10g then stopped. So much ground coffee stuck to both burrs after such little coffee ground

looked up the chute again and it's clogged up....looking at the pic below, the chute entrance is under the bottom burr...

I'll try unscrewing the screw under the chute/above the start/stop button


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## cuprajake

What beans? And how fine is it coming out?

How weight in terms of beans have you put through it


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## cuprajake

Forgot to say. Is the hopper half full when doing so.

If your dial is where your at then thats as fine as i go on very light roasts.


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## Wisey

@Cuprajake

its black cat's chocolate blend. Medium roast.

tried 17/18g, still not coming out very fine, I don't know...I don't know what's right & wrong so difficult to say!


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## Blue_Cafe

do a point-point video


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## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe
whats a point-point video?!


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## Blue_Cafe

Wisey said:


> @Blue_Cafe
> whats a point-point video?!


 Do a video of you pulling a shot from start point to end point. (from bean to cup)


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## cuprajake

i reckon your too fine, if its clogging like that


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## Wisey

Cuprajake said:


> i reckon your too fine, if its clogging like that


 @Cuprajake

but if it's coming out in 20 seconds I need to make it finer?


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## cuprajake

poss yeah, but it could be bad prep too so the machine stalls then you get a gusher

best way is to take a vid of you grinding, filling the pf, tamping and then making a shot,


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## Wisey

@Cuprajake

ive gotta get the grinder working again 1st 😂😂....but yeah I'll do that then post when unclogged!


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## siliconslave

have you been wetting the beans? can really bind things up if you put too much water in (sometimes recommended to avoid static)


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## Wisey

@siliconslave

wetting the beans? No


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## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

ah ok....

well at the moment I can't get passed grinder about 10g of beans before it stops working!


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## Wisey

So first things first - let's get this chirping...

im trying to upload an 11 second video but it's saying I'm only allowed 7.81mb & won't let me add the video?


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## Blue_Cafe

Use streamable or YouTube!


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## lhavelund

Wisey said:


> So first things first - let's get this chirping...
> 
> im trying to upload an 11 second video but it's saying I'm only allowed 7.81mb & won't let me add the video?


 Pop it on YouTube, then post a link here.


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## Wisey

Thanks lads for the advice

so is it chirping to begin with and then I got too far? So I've got to go coarser from where I currently am?


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## Blue_Cafe

Yup


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## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

so do I need to go back a bit further to when that very faint noise starts?


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## Blue_Cafe

Wisey said:


> @Blue_Cafe
> 
> so do I need to go back a bit further to when that very faint noise starts?


 Caveat: I don't have one.

But, looking at the dial, I'd go back a quarter turn and work from there with that bag of £5 beans you should have got from Lidl :classic_happy:


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## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

it is my intention to go there tomorrow! Looked online & don't see a £5 bag, may be instore only? 
I ain't used anymore beans since the weekend anyway as been at work


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## BlackCatCoffee

Look like it is far too fine to me. When you had the 10 seconds of grinding how was it coming out the grinder? It should be a nice steady waterfall at espresso coarseness.

Back it off at least half a turn from touching burrs and go from there.


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## cuprajake

Turn that dial, anti clock wise till you get the number 2 at the front then try your beans

Like i said before 100% you're too fine and clogging it up your almost turkish grind.

Is it coming out almost like flour


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## Wisey

@Cuprajake

@Blue_Cafe

ok I'll try on 2

ive just been to Lidl!! Not £5 for 1kg but £1.70 for 200g so about £8.50 for 1kg


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## cuprajake

How much beans has been through it.

I bedded in by putting two bags of crap through

Problem is, if your going to try a d drink supermarket beans there totally different to dial in than the black cat coffee u have


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## Wisey

so here goes....a bit scruffy & rushed sorry.

gone onto the Lidl coffee....

18g went in, I know the portafilter was too full....but ultimately, took 18 seconds! Tried one before & took 14!

photo of the puck after, also photo up the chute..already looks slightly blocked however it has ground ok...


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## Wisey

@Cuprajake

eem yeah suppose a bit like flour, thought it should be quite fluffy?

oh only about 250g has been through!

Totally understand what you say, proper coffee will be different to Lidl stuff but I'm not even in the ball park!

I thought you start the timer when coffee comes out but been starting when from when I turn it on, & still like 18 seconds!

people think it's too fine, but then to make the extraction longer I need to go finer??


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## cuprajake

Ok sooooo.

Fill the hopper atleast half way. Sigle dosing as your doing on this grinders really a no no

Grind into a pot, weigh the pot, grind into it the weigh again

Go for 17g in the pf

Keep the pf guard on and empty the pot, then use a bit of cocktail stick to stir the grinds in the pf, then bang it on the surface to settle the grinds, the. Remove the guard/collar

Spinny thing and tamp. You werent level with your tamp, and you dont have to crank down on it.

If this is the supermarket beans the. Thats the result your going to get sadly.


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## cuprajake

Your grind there was too course hence why it filled the basket.

But you cant really dial in with those beans.

You could use the pressurised basket. For now and work soley off weight till u have a good bean


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## Wisey

@Cuprajake

reading reviews before buying I thought this was a decent single dosing grinder?

what do you mean crank down on the tamp? You mean I pushed too hard?

when I used black cats beans At the weekend I was still getting a 20 second pour?


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## cuprajake

Yeah. Too hard

You can get that though if your basket prep is off, if its wonky you could cause fast pours with even a fine grind.


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## NJD1977

I'm not sure if the specialita is especially different to an old Mignon but there's no way I'm grinding 18g espresso grind in 8-9secs on my old Mignon. More like double that at least. Unless yours is a particularly fast grinder then it's spitting out the coffee at too coarse a grind.

Having said that, from what I can see in the video the grind looks ok but there looks way too much for that basket, not sure if 18g is too much for it or if its too fast through the group.

The only other thing I can suggest is a solid stirring in the cup with something fine before you dose into the basket.

Ultimately you should be able to grind fine enough to choke the machine then back off from there. You're way off choking the machine in the video.


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## Wisey

Ok so next time, 17g - grind finer, dont tamp as hard & be straighter with the tamp


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## NJD1977

Also, I know people say you shouldn't single dose the mignons but I have for years and never had any problems.

There's a good link on popcorning here which seems to conclude that it doesn't make much of a difference in the cup.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/coffeeadastra.com/2019/04/12/grind-quality-and-the-popcorning-effect/amp/


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## Blue_Cafe

I looked at the manual for the DTP. The basket is 15+18g

To me, it looks like the grinder is too course and the basket way over filled meaning you are getting a arse upwards shot.

If it was me,

Weigh out 16g in the portafilter. I think looking at the manual that this should be about level without tamping. Tamp and go. Note the time, dial in. You'll get quick shots at the current grind but should be able to start pulling 25s shots soon enough.

Once you've that sorted, you can take notes and play with basket full etc.

This thread is ace btw and I really am rooting for you lol.


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## cuprajake

When i had my dtp 17g is what i settled on. If all else fails. Tamp then use the razor tool.


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## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

😂😂...thanks, enjoying seeing someone absolutely clueless! I should start a YouTube channel! Hahaha

just think I'm 3 months hopefully we should all be able to look back at these starting messages and just laugh


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## TomHughes

Cuprajake said:


> When i had my dtp 17g is what i settled on. If all else fails. Tamp then use the razor tool.


 Me too, the lowest I ever went was 16.5, highest was 19g with a decaf.


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## Wisey

So - two more attempts just now...

lidl beans, 17g....ground into a cup & slightly finer....didnt tamp as hard....ground into a cup and stirred with a wooden skewer

the chute looked clogged again (although it ground ok)....weighed beans out and was only 14.9!! So I ground a bit more... 18 seconds, puck was a bit stuck to the shower screen (was distributed & tamped nowhere near the top of the PF basket), coffee was very bitter & grainey, no crema.

attempt 2 - cleaned the chute, 17g beans, out came 14.9g again!!!! Ground no problems but chute looking clogged again. Left it this time at 14.9g, again 18 seconds....tasted better, again no crema

now I don't drink it as an espresso so like someone else on this forum once mentioned, if I add milk to it it could make it a drinkable coffee just hiding a poor espresso......

people suggest it's too fine hence why it clogs so I go coarser, people say it's too coarse so I go finer/it clogs the chute/loads of retention/no crema/ no increase in shot time!

I am getting no closer to increasing the shot time closer to 25-30 second mark no matter what I do to


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## cuprajake

are you still single dosing?

those beans will be an issue


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## Blue_Cafe

You are cleaning the retention out of the grinder.

There are two parts to retention, dead space and hold up. Dead space is coffee which doesn't move. It will sit there forever until you clean it.

Hold up, is the difference between fresh and stale coffee which passes through the machine.

As you keep cleaning it, and its not a zero retention grinder (by all accounts), you will forever be faffing wit the weights. The way to use these is to figure out what the hold up is and purge by that amount before use. You can then clean the dead space periodically.

So, stop looking up the chute would be my advice :classic_laugh:

Fill the hopper with all the beans and have at it,


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## Blue_Cafe

Just watching your video again.



Go and get some scales and practice pushing 20lbs. you seem to be doing it too hard


No polishing.


Be gentle, you are rough with the puck. This will cause channeling


You are getting channeling for sure (pump struggles and then runs away).


Oh, and nice watch


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## BlackCatCoffee

Go back to basics.

Empty the grinder, chirp the burrs, back off half to three quarters of a turn. Start from there.

FILL the bean hopper, place your portafilter on to some scales and tare to zero. Grind in to the portafilter on manual and weigh the whole portafilter until you get to 18g (I am assuming you can fit 18g in the Sage basket, perhaps someone can correct me if I am wrong) on the scales. Note the total time it has taken to grind and set your double shot for that. In the future your timed grind should be there or thereabouts. You will just continue to weigh the entire portafilter with the coffee in and adjust as needed.

Tamp. Do not worry about precision pressure etc. Just be consistent every time with your routine and get a level bed. The 30lbs of force etc is horse shit. Consistency is what matters.

Ignore the clogged spout, it isnt clogged at all. If it is clogged you will get NO coffee out of it at all.

Now pull a shot (ideally without preinfusion if possible so you do not complicate things) time from the moment you press the go button. Ideally coffee will start to come out form around 6-8 seconds after the pump starts. Pull to a ratio of 1:2 and aim for 25+ seconds. Taste it.

Purge the grinder for a few seconds to expel coffee that is at the old grind size. Or pull two shots between changes if you do not want to waste it. If not you will end up with coffee ground at a mixture of settings.

Keep ALL variables the same for every shot you do apart from one; the grind. If it is too slow make it more coarse, too fast make it finer. REPEAT REPEAT REPEAT until correct. You will get there I can assure you.

A quick note on the lidl beans. I understand it is disheartening to throw decent more expensive coffee down the drain when dialling in but if you do it with lidl beans, you will just have to repeat the process when you buy decent stuff. Buy something reasonable, I am not trying to drum up business but our Chocolate Point blend is under £20 delivered for a KG and there are many options out there if you do not want to order from us. And ultimately if you put crap in you get crap out.

When you have spent hundreds on a machine and grinder why save £10 on beans and cause yourself a load of extra work? Just dial in with something decent in the first place.

ETA - I am sure this has been covered but make sure you are using the correct single wall basket.


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## cuprajake

17g is best for the sage,

it has a 9second pre infusion,


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## Blue_Cafe

Cuprajake said:


> 17g is best for the sage,
> 
> it has a 9second pre infusion,


 Its the middle of the basket range (15-18G) according to the manual,

I do think the tamp is far too hard and is throwing this all off, cheap beans or not. This bloke is a bit hench and is shaking with force when tamping lol


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## TomHughes

I agree the tamp looks to be an issue, too hard. 
You really don't need to tamp that hard, it just needs to compress the coffee and flatten the puck surface. 
The video had way way too much coffee in the basket, no wonder it was all over the place.
As you locked the PF in you would have disturbed the puck so would have caused channeling. 
The sage basket takes 18g no problem, but only if you use a denser/lighter roasted bean.

I'd ditch the lidl beans, they are unlikely to give you anything good!


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## mmmatron

Agree with black cat, tamping pressure is horse sh*t. You can't really 'over tamp' but you can under tamp, it will cause channelling. Being level is the key thing so don't wobble the tamper.

As others have mentioned, fill your hopper. You'll get really inconsistent results otherwise. You'll waste a lot of coffee dialling in but once there you're set. Ditch the lidl beans! Follow black cat's advice, it's spot on  good luck


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## Blue_Cafe

I think you have to remember that this gentleman has no reference to judge tamping. Whilst tamping pressure is perhaps bollox and consistency is the key, there is a workable band regardless of it being broad. not tamping at all wont work, so the start point is not zero and infinite force won't work either as you will make the puck rock hard.

So, at least, until you've got a workable base (and he hasn't) give something to work with. 20-30lbs is not a bad start point and as long as the figure is consistent, it's something to work from.


----------



## cuprajake

Heres a quick vid of my work flow,

Was the same with the sage.


----------



## TomHughes

mmmatron said:


> Agree with black cat, tamping pressure is horse sh*t. You can't really 'over tamp' but you can under tamp, it will cause channelling. Being level is the key thing so don't wobble the tamper.
> 
> As others have mentioned, fill your hopper. You'll get really inconsistent results otherwise. You'll waste a lot of coffee dialling in but once there you're set. Ditch the lidl beans! Follow black cat's advice, it's spot on
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> good luck


 eh? You can definitely over tamp. Try a lever machine where you have control over the pressure applied and you'll find out that tamping itself is pretty over-rated and you can definitely tamp too hard and cause an overly dense puck which results in channeling as the pressure rises.

The key is you are not really trying to force water through the puck to extract. You are trying to create a water/coffee slurry that when combined creates enough resistance to slow water flow and build pressure to say 5-10bars that will result in a rapid extraction in under 30 seconds.

The other day I did a pre-infusion at 2bar on the la pavoni then removed the PF to see what it was like. It was like a cement mix. sort of semi-solid but fluid at the same time.

If you massively compress the puck, but have a grinder that is not consistent enough or you didn't level and spread it out well enough the water will find this area and punch a hole through it and channel.


----------



## Wisey

Thank you all for the comments, I'm actually enjoying this journey & you lot are probably more frustrated with me than I am with getting this right 😂😂

ok - so I'll ditch the Lidl beans and go back to the BCC chocolate blend....

tamp too hard - ok I'll be a bit gentler

chute/retention etc - I read it isn't a 0 retention grinder but read it was something minuscule like 0.3g....well mine kept 2.1g in 1 Grind, this cant be right......if it's retaining this amount I've no chance of being able to get dead on 17g out for example?

black cat - the other night I did have issues where the grinder was not working at all, I had to blow air down the chute using a straw!

also black cat - I'm consistently pulling the shot in about 18 seconds, so I need to go finer not back? But if I go any finer, the burrs grind

@Blue_Cafe thanks mate - funnily enough a few years ago I won a golf tournament so went on a free trip to the Bahamas, whilst there I won that & won the watch! 🤭🤭🤭 🏌️‍♂️


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

You'll get consistent weights by weighing the output. Either how I suggested or how cuprajake does in his video.

You can single dose a Mignon but for now I would use it as intended and worry about that later on.

I would honestly suggest going through the routine I posted, you will definitely get there like that. Just keep in mind you've got to make small adjustments and keep everything else consistent or you'll end up in a mess.

Cuprajake will be a very good person to listen to, he had an almost identical set up at one point if memory serves me right.


----------



## mmmatron

TomHughes said:


> eh? You can definitely over tamp. Try a lever machine where you have control over the pressure applied and you'll find out that tamping itself is pretty over-rated and you can definitely tamp too hard and cause an overly dense puck which results in channeling as the pressure rises.
> 
> The key is you are not really trying to force water through the puck to extract. You are trying to create a water/coffee slurry that when combined creates enough resistance to slow water flow and build pressure to say 5-10bars that will result in a rapid extraction in under 30 seconds.
> 
> The other day I did a pre-infusion at 2bar on the la pavoni then removed the PF to see what it was like. It was like a cement mix. sort of semi-solid but fluid at the same time.
> 
> If you massively compress the puck, but have a grinder that is not consistent enough or you didn't level and spread it out well enough the water will find this area and punch a hole through it and channel.


I stand corrected. The grounds will only compress to a certain point so the idea of x amount of force is not that relevant, I suppose was my point made badly. I've found with the DE if I tamp lightly I get uneven flow.


----------



## Blue_Cafe

God bless Wisey,

Tamp,

Don't tamp,

tamp hard,

tamp soft,

Use good beans,

Use rubbish beans,

Single dose,

Don't single dose

15g,

16g

17g

Grind finer

Grind coarser

....

:classic_laugh: :classic_wacko:


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Blue_Cafe said:


> God bless Wisey,
> 
> Tamp,
> 
> Don't tamp,
> 
> tamp hard,
> 
> tamp soft,
> 
> Use good beans,
> 
> Use rubbish beans,
> 
> Single dose,
> 
> Don't single dose
> 
> 15g,
> 
> 16g
> 
> 17g
> 
> Grind finer
> 
> Grind coarser
> 
> ....
> 
> :classic_laugh: :classic_wacko:


 Yup. That is the problem with these sorts of threads. I am sure each individual would be able to help him get the results he wants eventually but when everyone has different ideas of where to start that all contradict each other it makes things very tricky.

Still, he said he is enjoying the journey and this is a hobby that is to be enjoyed so that is all that matters really.


----------



## 24774

Cuprajake said:


> Heres a quick vid of my work flow,
> 
> Was the same with the sage.


 That's a really nice looking machine.

@Wisey Not much to add, you've got lots of good advice here. I would encourage you to follow it closely and stick with it. I was like you and these guys helped me out with the same patient and helpful advice with my Sage. Took me a while to make it work, but it does click and you start getting consistently nice drinks. BlackCat really knows the Specialita so follow that post carefully.


----------



## cuprajake

@CocoLoco

thanks i took a bit of a punt on it tbh, its a la macatec(coffee 969) machine - has a rocket control box inside it.

jake


----------



## Wisey

Morning all!

I think I'm struggling from the beginning with this chirping the burrs - listening to it this morning it sounds like it's passed the chirping....but go either way & it gets to the grinding sound?  Is something stuck in it to make it sound like this or is that just the sound of the motor?


----------



## TomHughes

That's not chirping that's the sound of the motor/burrs.

are you turning clockwise for finer or is yours different?


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

so as you can see from this video it goes from the motor sound you said, to that deeper which I'm assuming is grinding??

turning clockwise to make it finer


----------



## TomHughes

> 7 minutes ago, Wisey said:


 Oh yes, that's definitely them touching.
Plus it sounds like the burrs are well aligned as you havent got the chirp chirp chirp which means they are only contacting in one place.

Right, that is point 0 now. 
Looks like you're at about -1? 
That's exactly where mine is.

So for ref.

I found in the DTP,

Low grown dark roasts around the 1.5-2 mark, 17g 
High grown light roasts around the 0-1 mark
Decaf around 0


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

so that's on about point 5...so as bcc suggested I've gone back half a turn, I'm now at 1.5....

gone back to bcc beans

purged some to get Lidl beans out

17g ground

stirred with wooden skewer

distributed

light tamp

18 seconds! Coffee started coming after 9/10 seconds

puck - stuck to shower screen but cane off in a oner

taste - horrendous!

Attempt 2 -

exact same process as attempt 1

About 17/18 seconds - coffee started coming out after 10 seconds

puck - not stuck to shower screen

taste - not quite horrendous

attempt 3 -

finer - from level 1.5 to about 1.25

purge some beans

same process as before

19 seconds - took 11 seconds for the coffee to come out

puck - stuck to shower screen, dropped out whole

taste - horrendous!

well - I'm consistent!! I can't get away from the 18second mark

why am I not making any progress who so ever even though I'm adjusting the grind it's still keeping the time the same

@Cuprajake video the flow was quite slow & when the machine turned off the flow stopped

nine seems to be pouring out too quick & when I turn it off, if still drips 10g out...

to get 34g out id have to turn the machine off after about 3 seconds of the coffee coming out!


----------



## Blue_Cafe

16g in, slightly finer, ditch the distribution tool. consistent tamp (30lbs)

Be gentle with the puck, no banging.

Start timing from pushing button. Look for 25-35s shot

(Basically everything everyone else has told you not to do :classic_laugh: )

This is exactly what Breville say in the manual and what the machine is designed for. Note that they don't mention output, but tell you to judge on taste (bitter/astringent).


----------



## TomHughes

How much are you purging? On a mignon you are going to need to purge 5g at least between changing settings.

I'd suggest as above to grind finer. 
Keep going finer till you choke the machine then back off.

Btw bear in mind it can take 2-5kg through the mignon to fully season the burrs. 
Before this you will get a fair amount of inconsistency.


----------



## TomHughes

Blue_Cafe said:


> 16g in, slightly finer, ditch the distribution tool. consistent tamp (30lbs)
> 
> Be gentle with the puck, no banging.
> 
> Start timing from pushing button. Look for 25-35s shot
> 
> (Basically everything everyone else has told you not to do :classic_laugh: )
> 
> This is exactly what Breville say in the manual and what the machine is designed for. Note that they don't mention output, but tell you to judge on taste (bitter/astringent).


 I very much doubt 16g will be enough for that basket. 
The sage double is at least 16.5-17. It would be pretty under filled at 16.


----------



## TomHughes

Oh and just to check you have stopped single dosing right and filled the hopper up?


----------



## cuprajake

Just a quick qestion can you take the basket out and show us which one your using???


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Cuprajake said:


> Just a quick question can you take the basket out and show us which one your using???


 A good point in fairness....


----------



## Blue_Cafe

TomHughes said:


> I very much doubt 16g will be enough for that basket.
> The sage double is at least 16.5-17. It would be pretty under filled at 16.


 So for the sage DTP, is it ok for the puck to swell against the head as is happening here @17g?

I thought that was bad and an indication that headroom is being compromised?

(genuinely curious)


----------



## TomHughes

Blue_Cafe said:


> So for the sage DTP, is it ok for the puck to swell against the head as is happening here @17g?
> 
> I thought that was bad and an indication that headroom is being compromised?
> 
> (genuinely curious)


 No, I don't think so, the coffee will swell a lot because it is a darker roast, and will suck in lots of water. 
Head room is to allow the swelling, you don't need more than headroom required for this. 
The sage baskets are quite narrow and tall, with a taper. Therefore a good dose in them is optimal for reduced channeling.

The problem he currently has is not grinding fine enough I suspect, but potentially with the inconsistencies from the grinder for the following reasons.

1. Because he was and maybe is single doses. 
this is a problem with the mignon because I *think* you increase the size distribution because you get fines due to the anticlumpers causing a semi blockage and re-grinding, coupled with popcorning giving boulders.

This was massively improved in my mignon when I removed the anti-clumpers, the reduction in fines was huge.

2. Mignon burrs are small, and seem to need a fair amount of seasoning, mine took at least a month to settle.


----------



## Blue_Cafe

That sounds fair enough to me Tom 👍, i don't think there is much to pick at in it.

So, perhaps, to help seasoning, set the grinder to fine and just bung all of his lidl beans through it?

Then, to stop popcorning, fill the hopper up with the good stuff and not do single dosing until he's got this nailed?

The anti clumper issue seems valid, but with due respect, perhaps this not something this gentleman can tackle?

I am sure he will get a shot out of this eventually! :classic_laugh:


----------



## Wisey

@Cuprajake

@Blue_Cafe


----------



## cuprajake

right basket then

i dont know what the issue is

where in the uk are you based


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Roadtrip!


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

i purged loads last time I adjusted it...I know you're saying go finer but you've seen the video, I can only go a little bit finer before the burrs are grinding


----------



## Wisey

Yorkshire.....wisey's cafe only you come & make it for me?! 😂😂

yes I've stopped single dosing


----------



## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

for the last couple of days I have began to start the timer from when I turn the handle, so taking 9/10 seconds for the coffee to start then only like 8 seconds of output!!

watching cuprajake's his was a slow steady stream & when he turned it off it stopped.

mine still drips & adds 10g!

this a machine error not user!!?


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Wisey said:


> Yorkshire.....wisey's cafe only you come & make it for me?! 😂😂
> 
> yes I've stopped single dosing


 If someone actually does a roadtrip to you, I'll donate a cup of coffee to their nominated charity.

I'll be mighty impressed :good:


----------



## cuprajake

The sage do drip after you turn off


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Wisey said:


> @Blue_Cafe
> 
> for the last couple of days I have began to start the timer from when I turn the handle, so taking 9/10 seconds for the coffee to start then only like 8 seconds of output!!
> 
> watching cuprajake's his was a slow steady stream & when he turned it off it stopped.
> 
> mine still drips & adds 10g!
> 
> this a machine error not user!!?


 I don't know tbh. There are far more experienced hands on the forum than me.

The time is from switch on to switch off. Remove the cup immediately. I think your machine doesn't have an expansion valve so (like mine) they don't stop as immediately as if they did.

Your machine has pre infusion so you can't judge times against those that don't. I'd judge against other sage machines.

Pump on, timer on, go for 25 ish.

Pump off and remove immediately. Don't wait for the dribbles.

If you are in the 1-2 1-3 ratio ball park, then you are getting there.

I think.

I don't want to be the light of sanity here tbh. I've no experience of this machine grinder.


----------



## Wisey

So fellas -

the message you've been waiting to pop up for the last few hours...

first try this evening....

17g, slightly finer, no distribution....

same result

19 seconds, very bitter taste!!!! 😂😂😂😂


----------



## cuprajake

I found pulling a tad longer helped too

So 17g in 40g out around 35 to 40 sec


----------



## Wisey

Attempt 2 -

17g in

mix with skewer

distro

tamp

20 seconds!!!

taste awful!

Last try............


----------



## Blue_Cafe

🤞


----------



## 24774

We're all rooting for you Wisey!

I have a different Sage so don't want to get in the way and offer even more (maybe conflicting) advice, but just want make sure you run 3 or 4 dummy shots before the real one. That really heats the water and was part of slowing down my shots. I have a BE though, maybe that's irrelevant to the DTP.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco thanks!

attempt 3 -

same as before, 17.1g ground in 7.5 seconds (shouldn't this take nearer 9 meaning it's not grinding fine enough?)

Took 11 seconds for the coffee to come out (does this mean something, should it be a coupe of seconds less? If so, why is it taking too long?)

ran the shot to 40g (that extra 6g is only the small matter of 1-2 seconds)

24 seconds!!!!! So an improvement, negate the extra time for the extra g's so about 22 seconds.......go a little bit finer next time?

puck - stuck to shower screen but came out in a oner (has done all 3 times - does this mean anything/indicate an error?)

Taste - not great!!!!!

had about a kg maybe through now

With me filling the hopper & not single dosing how long can they be in there until they'll be going off?

I am actually really enjoying this adventure & the interactions.....we can all watch videos on YouTube but that'd be boring for me, much more interested chatting to people about it!


----------



## Blue_Cafe

I think the planets are starting to align.

17 in, 40 out, 25s is getting there.

Next shot, before you pull, put up the razor tool against the puck and see if you are close to the height. I think your dose is heavy if it's leaving itself on the machine but I take others experience that's it's not an issue.

From here, I would pull 2 more in a row, identical, with enough time for a flush and reheat in-between. If the shots are reasonably similar, you've got consistency nailed as well.

Perhaps see if you can choke the machine and how far you need to go on the grinder to do that.

From there, you can use taste to guide you. Pull some coarser/finer shots and get a feel for the balance point on taste.


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @CocoLoco thanks!
> 
> attempt 3 -
> 
> same as before, 17.1g ground in 7.5 seconds (shouldn't this take nearer 9 meaning it's not grinding fine enough?)
> 
> Took 11 seconds for the coffee to come out (does this mean something, should it be a coupe of seconds less? If so, why is it taking too long?)
> 
> ran the shot to 40g (that extra 6g is only the small matter of 1-2 seconds)
> 
> 24 seconds!!!!! So an improvement, negate the extra time for the extra g's so about 22 seconds.......go a little bit finer next time?
> 
> puck - stuck to shower screen but came out in a oner (has done all 3 times - does this mean anything/indicate an error?)
> 
> Taste - not great!!!!!
> 
> had about a kg maybe through now
> 
> With me filling the hopper & not single dosing how long can they be in there until they'll be going off?
> 
> I am actually really enjoying this adventure & the interactions.....we can all watch videos on YouTube but that'd be boring for me, much more interested chatting to people about it!


 Getting there! 
You can go right up to that point those burrs start to touch, so don't worry about going a little finer.

What I found with the Sages was because their system in both temp and pressure is seemingly very dependant on a certain resistance level in the basket then you have to reach this otherwise it doesn't play ball. 
When you have reached it can only take a micro-adjustment to go from hitting it to full on choke. So keep making small adjustments

I've now moved from Sages to a La Pavoni. A whole different world! The thing that made me switch was this pressure dependance. You couldn't control the flow and I found I wanted far more control on dosing, pressure application etc.


----------



## Wisey

How long can beans sit in a hopper for?


----------



## NJD1977

Wisey said:


> How long can beans sit in a hopper for?


Debatable. Probably a 3-5 days I guess, but as soon as they're out of the sealed pack they're aging faster.


----------



## Wisey

@NJD1977

ah that's fine, I only plan to have them in there 24-48 hours


----------



## lhavelund

I have to admit, I've been following this and admire your patience, @Wisey. I think I would have hit serious despair ages ago.

I sadly don't have enough experience with the machine to really offer any advice to help from this point on, but definitely rooting for you!


----------



## Wisey

@lhavelund

😂😂

thanks matey!!

ive suprised myself as I'm normally the most impatient person ever! I don't want things now, I want them yesterday!


----------



## 24774

lhavelund said:


> I have to admit, I've been following this and admire your patience, @Wisey. I think I would have hit serious despair ages ago.
> 
> I sadly don't have enough experience with the machine to really offer any advice to help from this point on, but definitely rooting for you!


 Me too. It's become like a sit-com, I check in every day to see how Wisey's journey is going!


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

😂😂. Glad you're enjoying yourself !!

attempt 1 coming up.......


----------



## dutchy101

They can hop till they drop


----------



## Wisey

Attempt 1

same as last night, not touched it....

22seconds, 40g

puck - stayed in the basket

taste - not good!

attempt 2

Purge beans & grind slightly finer

same setup as previous

24 seconds 40g

puck - stuck to shower screen

taste - not good


----------



## Wisey

Attempt 3

purge some beans & grind slightly finer (on 0 now)

same setup as usual

had a little go with the razor however if I'd have done it properly it would've taken up loads of coffee - probably 2-3g?! So, I distro'd it back down, tamp.

40g - 28 frickin seconds!!!!

Puck - stuck to shower screen but came off in a oner

taste - go to your bean container, take a small handful of beans out....pop them in your mouth & eat them like skittles......that's how it tasted 😂


----------



## Blue_Cafe




----------



## dutchy101

Have you tried any of these drinks with milk as a latte / cappuccino at all?


----------



## Wisey

@dutchy101

no not yet, jeeez just think how many pages this topic is gona be when I get onto milk texturing!! 😂😂

I cant remember who said about basically masking their poor espresso with milk...

I want to get a decent espresso before I do that!


----------



## Wisey

So lads

now we're going in the right direction & getting into the timing range...what we gona do about the taste? I can't see it changing dramatically with the tiny change I'm gona need to get the time right

that last shot was pretty damn good!! It just looked a lot lot slower and steady....could tell it was gona be a good timed shot early on


----------



## dutchy101

Give it a go. You might realise you prefer milk based drinks 😂😂😂

At least you won't be pouring it all away and might get some milk skills in at the same time


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Out of curiosity do you normally drink espresso?


----------



## Wisey

@dutchy101

@BlackCatCoffee

no I don't normally drink espresso, normally Americano with a bit of milk or sometimes opposite & a cappucino

however, surely I need to get the espresso right first? Although I don't drink espresso normally, I'd like to think I could taste a decent one and a poor one


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Wisey said:


> @dutchy101
> 
> @BlackCatCoffee
> 
> no I don't normally drink espresso, normally Americano with a bit of milk or sometimes opposite & a cappucino
> 
> however, surely I need to get the espresso right first? Although I don't drink espresso normally, I'd like to think I could taste a decent one and a poor one


 You will be able to train your palate to tell the difference yes. I would give it a go however you would normally drink it for now and see what how that tastes. If you do not normally consume espresso the taste can be very bold.


----------



## dutchy101

If you don't normally drink espresso (like myself - and I never have) you could be throwing away perfectly drinkable shots here. I am trying to train my palette to learn (and like) espresso by sipping each one before I add milk.

I look at espresso like whiskey. Nobody likes it until they acquire a taste for it


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> @dutchy101
> 
> @BlackCatCoffee
> 
> no I don't normally drink espresso, normally Americano with a bit of milk or sometimes opposite & a cappucino
> 
> however, surely I need to get the espresso right first? Although I don't drink espresso normally, I'd like to think I could taste a decent one and a poor one


 I can't stand espresso and have no interest in 'learning' to like it. It may be you just don't like espresso? Are you actually enjoying these good drinks?


----------



## dutchy101

Get some milk frothage on the go mate. It will heal all your hurts.


----------



## Wisey

Yeah I'll start having a go at throwing some milk in

im not saying I want to start drinking espresso, I'm just saying surely it's gotta be drinkable before I start adding milk..

if I have a guest over who wants an espresso what am I supposed to do?!

although I don't drink espresso, I think I can tell what it butter & way too strong (for my liking anyway)


----------



## dutchy101

I'm not a fan of any of the espresso that I taste before I put my milk in but I'm loving the cappuccinos


----------



## cuprajake

Try them as americano, someone's bright taste is another person's sour


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Cuprajake said:


> Try them as americano, someone's bright taste is another person's sour


 I like making espresso because I mainly drink it in a Americano and don't like bright/sour flavour profiles.

I dont know if that's right tbh so carry on :classic_laugh:


----------



## Wisey

Just had a thought - maybe my espresso are tasting so bad because it's a double espresso?!

if I made a single which I've had before I'd like it a bit more??

to make a single espresso is it simple using the single rather than Double basket

then simple as halving the beans & g out? So 8.5g & 20 seconds..

or will the grinder need adjusting?


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Single shots?... :classic_huh:


----------



## cuprajake

Stick to double n split the shot. Singles are arguably harder to pull


----------



## TomHughes

The other thing to consider is whether you are actually getting the machine to temp. 
I eventually sent mine back after it was clear the temp was nowhere close to what it should be, and off by enough to get sour shot after sour shot.

When I got the barista pro which did get to temp with enough priming the difference was huge.


----------



## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

@Cuprajake

Ah ok.....

I just wondered if making a single shot espresso would taste 'what I've tasted before'


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

how do i know if it's getting upto temp?

with the DTP, is it one of these that has to be on for 20 mins to warm up?


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> how do i know if it's getting upto temp?
> 
> with the DTP, is it one of these that has to be on for 20 mins to warm up?


 I found with mine that it never got up to temp so I deemed it faulty.

I measured the temp by putting the double walled basket in (to provide resistance and slow flow) and shoving a kitchen thermometer up the PF spout.

I also found you needed to leave the PF in boiling water for a few minutes pre shot as it is quite a hefty chunk of metal so acts like a heat sink to pull heat away.


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

so a dummy shot or 2 deffo needs running through the system before making a proper coffee? I haven't really been doing that, it can't improve the taste can it?!

when I have tried the espresso it has been quite warm


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> so a dummy shot or 2 deffo needs running through the system before making a proper coffee? I haven't really been doing that, it can't improve the taste can it?!
> 
> when I have tried the espresso it has been quite warm


 None at all? 
In my experiments on the DTP it took 3/4 shots, maybe 10-15mins of heating to get it to around 90C, which was still a little too low. 
Others have tried the same routine and got to 93. 
Based on testing those first few shots would be low/mid 80s max, so you get sour under-extracted coffee


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> so a dummy shot or 2 deffo needs running through the system before making a proper coffee? I haven't really been doing that, it can't improve the taste can it?!


 You haven't been doing that?! That's KEY Wisey! It improves the shot by miles. Well it did for me. The pf/grouphead needs to be hot but it's paramount the water is very hot. Turn the machine on at least 20min beforehand that warms up the pf/grouphead. Then run 3/4 empty shots. (I use this hot water to add to shot afterwards to make Americano).

As TomHughes is saying, it is imperative the water is at the right (hot) temperature. In answer to your question, yes it improves the taste. For me, a lot and I'd say getting the water hot was the single 'biggest' piece of advice I received (and it was Tom that told me!).


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

@CocoLoco

🤭...ah ok, i have had the machine on, & especially by the time I've made shot 3 it's been on for 20 mins but admittedly not run many empty shots through it.....I'll try it tomorrow!! 😊


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> @CocoLoco
> 
> 🤭...ah ok, i have had the machine on, & especially by the time I've made shot 3 it's been on for 20 mins but admittedly not run many empty shots through it.....I'll try it tomorrow!! 😊


 Cool, give it go tomorrow see what happens. Turn machine on, put pf in it, let it all heat up for 20/25mins, run 4 shots through it (I don't keep pf in for that bit, I think others might, but I don't). That'll mimic what I do. Then do your workflow, see what happens.

I'm not saying it'll 100% work but it was the piece of the puzzle I needed, maybe it will be for you too. Regardless, you need to do it to make sure water is properly hot (and pf wants to be too). You can then check that off the list of things it probably 'isn't'.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

great thanks

Surely keeping the pf in, then grinding the coffee into a wet pf won't be good for it? Coffee stick to the basket?


----------



## sixpence

Wisey said:


> @CocoLoco
> 
> great thanks
> 
> Surely keeping the pf in, then grinding the coffee into a wet pf won't be good for it? Coffee stick to the basket?


 Finally, something I can help with! Give the portafilter a quick wipe with a dry microfibre cloth to get the damp off before adding grounds.

Won't affect the temperature, and it's a good habit to get into.


----------



## Wisey

@sixpence

ah thanks mate


----------



## Northern_Monkey

Also buy a smart plug so it will be ready to go when you want with no waiting round. Really nice that you can set it to warm up remotely on your way back home as well!


----------



## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

does that just link to a phone app or do you some sort of special gas/electric tariff like hive?


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - Ah, think you can't actually use them with the Sage if it is a soft switch and not a latching one.

If you had the machine on running with power and warming up, but then switched it off and back on at the wall socket would it power on automatically as soon as the socket switch was set to on?

Most prosumer or older machines you can do that on, which is a shame as you can use the phone app with it so not tied in. I have only had older style machines with mechanical switches.


----------



## cuprajake

No you cant with the sage.


----------



## cuprajake

But you could get this lol


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@Cuprajake - That is ingenious!


----------



## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

thanks for the info, think I'll just let it warm up for 20 mins hahha


----------



## Wisey

So made an espresso last night & added milk...left everything exactly the same, although let it warm up for 15 mins then ran some hot water through it...

taste - not great!

this morning, tried again....everything the same, machine left on, this time I did about 4 shots letting about 100g of water through it....

added milk, a bit of latte art....& it was alright!! Drinkable, not amazing but drinkable....

got my latte art going on, it's a dog!! 😂😂😂


----------



## Wisey

Hi all.....please stay with me on my journey!!
I've Been at work the last few days so not been making any coffee

just had one now - decent, drinkable...5/10....

Gona give it it first clean - so, I put the blanking disk & pulycaff in, do a few cycles....

then I take the portafilter out, & what...just run a bit of water through to get it all out inside....

what about the left in the tank, I guess this is ok to use, the pulycaff hasn't gone up into it?

also, so I need to take the shower screen off & maybe the PF/basket & soak them all in pulycaff?

the end of the steam wand also?


----------



## cuprajake

wouldnt of thought it needed descaling just yet,

are you using bottle water?


----------



## Wisey

@Cuprajake

yes I'm using ashbeck

not descaling, just backflushing it?


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> @Cuprajake
> 
> yes I'm using ashbeck
> 
> not descaling, just backflushing it?


 Is the 'Clean me' light flashing? Then yeah backflush it. Don't worry about it going into the tank, it won't do that. Give it a few cycles to dissolve the tablet. After that rinse cycle it a couple of times. No need for a descale yet.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

it doesn't have a clean me light on it? Only a light for hot water or steam?

ive had it a couple of weeks now and not cleaned it yet so guess it needs a backflush (I thought this was recommended once a week?)


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> @CocoLoco
> 
> it doesn't have a clean me light on it? Only a light for hot water or steam?
> 
> ive had it a couple of weeks now and not cleaned it yet so guess it needs a backflush (I thought this was recommended once a week?)


 Oh sorry, I thought it was like my BE but no you don't have a 'Clean Me' light.

Yep go ahead and backflush. Good habit to get into. I don't do it once a week but probably should.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

when doing a backflush, so I use a single basket or no basket??


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> @CocoLoco
> 
> when doing a backflush, so I use a single basket or no basket??


 It comes with the a rubber blanking disc right? Put the one cup filter in, then the rubber blanking disc on top, then put your cleaning tablet in the little trough in the middle of the disc. Run the back flushing process (look in manual for how, it's combination of buttons but will be different for you and I as we have different machines). Once run, run it again as tablet doesn't always dissolve with one flush. Then run empty shots to clean out machine.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

yeah it comes with the disc, wasn't sure if I put the single basket in or no basket..

also, don't I just turn the handle like I'm pulling a shot?? Didn't know I have to press certain buttons?


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> @CocoLoco
> 
> yeah it comes with the disc, wasn't sure if I put the single basket in or no basket..
> 
> also, don't I just turn the handle like I'm pulling a shot?? Didn't know I have to press certain buttons?


 I've no idea, I don't have your machine. My machine has a particular clean cycle process. Yours probably has too, lasts about 5 minutes. It's not a normal shot. Better get the manual out and check.


----------



## TomHughes

CocoLoco said:


> I've no idea, I don't have your machine. My machine has a particular clean cycle process. Yours probably has too, lasts about 5 minutes. It's not a normal shot. Better get the manual out and check.


 No, the DTP doesn't have cleaning cycles or anything. It should say in the manual how to do it @Wisey

I'm not even sure you should be backflushing the DTP anyway as it doesn't have a solenoid. 
I never bothered, I just removed the shower screen each week and cleaned it.


----------



## 24774

@Wisey Check out TomHughes post above, ignore mine!


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

thanks mate

Not backflushing it?? surely all machines need their insides cleaning out?

i did really quickly read about cleaning in the manual just not had much time


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Backflushing is like the espresso equivalent of an enema.

Good for somethings , not so for others...


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> thanks mate
> 
> Not backflushing it?? surely all machines need their insides cleaning out?
> 
> i did really quickly read about cleaning in the manual just not had much time


 There isn't a solenoid, so there is nowhere for it to go! Other than back into the boiler, bad news!


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

the manual says to clean it every 2-3 months doing the backflush

I thought people on here recommend weekly?


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Who follows the instructions these days anyway? :classic_laugh:


----------



## Wisey

Come on all, was loving all the hype on my thread...let's keep the journey going!!!!

So, the journey has plateaued - I am making espresso then into an Americano with a Splash of milk..

17g, beans are still only 3 weeks old, turning machine on to warm up for 15 mins, running some shots through to warm it all up, 40g out, in about 28 seconds (although last night it came out in about 34 seconds even though I haven't changed anything), stirring in the PF with a wooden skewer, distributing, tamping..

but it's still....drinkable.....how do I improve it, get it tasting a bit nicer.....as I've got the process in the right parameters I shouldn't be changing any grind size etc should it...so how do I improve the taste?


----------



## Wisey

So everyone - advice needed!

so made 3 coffees this morning, first one was ok..then made 2 more 10 minutes later..

grinder has been consistently doing 17.1g in 7.3 seconds, for some reason (last night attempt) & all 3 this morning, in 7.3 seconds it's been grinding like 12g!!! 
also, on attempts 2 & 3 no liquid came out when I turned the dial....the 3rd attempt the puck was completely swamped

1) Does this suggest the grinder needs a clean inside??

2) I'm guessing the reason no coffee came out is something to do with the puck being wrong?!


----------



## Wisey

@dutchy101 @CocoLoco @Cuprajake

@Blue_Cafe @TomHughes @MediumRoastSteam

hi all, please please help

so the grinder is slowly grinding less coffee in the time....did 17g in 7.4 seconds, then went down to 12g, this morning did 9g.

the last 4 coffees I've made, nothing has come out the machine....take the PF off & the puck is a swamp


----------



## Blue_Cafe

i am going to on a really long and quite shaky limb here.......

My gut reaction to this is: You have the wrong grinder.

I think you should get a Sage Grinder Pro.

Yes, it is a step backwards in actually grind performance, but, its sooooo much easier to use. Fire and forget. and perhaps a better match for you and the Sage espresso machine.

You can throw your stones now :classic_laugh:

But,

for the one you have, it's a bit odd as less grind time=coarser grind?

Have you put it back together properly?


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Wisey said:


> @dutchy101 @CocoLoco @Cuprajake
> 
> @Blue_Cafe @TomHughes @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> hi all, please please help
> 
> so the grinder is slowly grinding less coffee in the time....did 17g in 7.4 seconds, then went down to 12g, this morning did 9g.
> 
> the last 4 coffees I've made, nothing has come out the machine....take the PF off & the puck is a swamp


 Keep the grinder. Let's ignore the machine right now.

which coffee are you using? Light/medium/dark? Are you grinding Uber fine? How old is the coffee? Single dosing?


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - It's a bit tricky to get to grips with everything via messages and videos, especially with longer feedback cycles. I know for example Origin coffee roasters used to offer a day long in person intro course on home espresso.

Have you considered something similar for a location near you, it could help you out a bit maybe?


----------



## Blue_Cafe

Northern_Monkey said:


> @Wisey - It's a bit tricky to get to grips with everything via messages and videos, especially with longer feedback cycles. I know for example Origin coffee roasters used to offer a day long in person intro course on home espresso.
> 
> Have you considered something similar for a location near you, it could help you out a bit maybe?


 Great suggestion in fairness.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Northern_Monkey said:


> @Wisey - It's a bit tricky to get to grips with everything via messages and videos, especially with longer feedback cycles. I know for example Origin coffee roasters used to offer a day long in person intro course on home espresso.
> 
> Have you considered something similar for a location near you, it could help you out a bit maybe?


 It's a good idea, but won't answer the question OP is having related to his own setup. Or maybe OP could bring his grinder along?


----------



## Blue_Cafe

curveball: you haven't left the cleaning disk in the portafilter by any chance?


----------



## 24774

Good suggestion from Northern Monkey.

A member on here runs an online Sage barista course. I can't remember the member's name, maybe you'll be able to find him from the search or looking through the Sage forum. He Zooms/Skypes you, talks you through everything, analyses your issues etc. Sounds like it would be worthwhile for you Wisey.

Other than that MediumRoastSteam has some good questions about the coffee. That could be the issue with the grinder. Grind changes as coffee ages.


----------



## TomHughes

Also the grinder isn't bedded in yet.

My mignon was wildly inconsistent until it had about 5kg through.

So all this at the moment is chasing tails


----------



## Blue_Cafe

TomHughes said:


> Also the grinder isn't bedded in yet.
> 
> My mignon was wildly inconsistent until it had about 5kg through.
> 
> So all this at the moment is chasing tails


 Good point, but hardly likely to be responsible for a 50% increase in throughput rate no? Same for bean ageing, etc.

Sounds like something has come loose to me. Hard to say though.


----------



## TomHughes

Blue_Cafe said:


> Good point, but hardly likely to be responsible for a 50% increase in throughput rate no? Same for bean ageing, etc.
> 
> *Sounds like something has come loose to me. Hard to say though.*


 Maybe, my mignon was playing up so I had a look under the hood. One of the burr screws was loose after the last clean I guess


----------



## Wisey

@Blue_Cafe

it was working fine & consistently for a while after id put it back so must have been ok...

In regards to cleaning disc - no mate I didn't actually end up cleaning it yet


----------



## Wisey

@MediumRoastSteam

still using the same beans from black cat, they're 4 weeks from roasting tomorrow so still good..

no not single dosing, maybe I am grinding too fine...but that's because the timing was getting longer, 34 seconds...need to try a bit coarser

but...the coffee still doesn't tase great, so where do I go from here!

ps - what does OP stand for in your following post?


----------



## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey @CocoLoco

Fantastic advice, I will search & post on sage & see if anyone responds!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Wisey said:


> @MediumRoastSteam
> 
> still using the same beans from black cat, they're 4 weeks from roasting tomorrow so still good..
> 
> no not single dosing, maybe I am grinding too fine...but that's because the timing was getting longer, 34 seconds...need to try a bit coarser
> 
> but...the coffee still doesn't tase great, so where do I go from here!
> 
> ps - what does OP stand for in your following post?


 OP = Opening Post/Poster.

Lets recap:

- Beans X;
- Grinder has been in setting Y for at least s couple of shots;
- Timer in setting Z;
- Hopper always at least half full;

a series of shots will yield wildly different weights.

is that correct?


----------



## TomHughes

Have you properly tested the temp of your machine?


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

how do I do that? How do I know what the proper temperature should be? (Do you mean of the water/coffee when it comes out the pf?)


----------



## Wisey

@MediumRoastSteam

yes same beans, same time set, hopper always got decent amount of beans in

as bcc advised maybe I've gone too finer...

went a bit coarser today & again nothing

went coarser again & I got a drink! 
so, ok I'm back in the ball park.....decent timing for output etc

but.......

it still doesn't taste great........how do I improve this??!!


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> how do I do that? How do I know what the proper temperature should be? (Do you mean of the water/coffee when it comes out the pf?)


 Get a digital cooking thermometer like this one 
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/slredirect/picassoRedirect.html/ref=pa_sp_phone_search_atf_aps_sr_pg1_1?ie=UTF8&adId=A06771741OI43T4AZPB0U&url=%2FTOPELEK-Kitchen-Thermometer-Multi-functional-Included%2Fdp%2FB01GCEY2IS%2Fref%3Dmp_s_a_1_2_sspa%3Fdchild%3D1%26keywords%3Dcooking%2Bthermometer%26qid%3D1597852588%26sprefix%3Dcooking%2Bther%26sr%3D8-2-spons%26psc%3D1&qualifier=1597852588&id=7146179154559460&widgetName=sp_phone_search_atf

heat up your PF in boiling water (you should be doing this anyway)

Run 2-3 shots with the single pressurised basket in.

stick that thermometer up the PF spout and into the middle where there is a jet of water coming from the pressurised basket.

With this method my DTP struggled to get past 85 - too cold. Constant sour shots.

My barista pro was dead on 92.


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

i bought a normal kitchen thermometer ages ago so got that

- I have been running 2-3 shots as advised but nobody has said about putting the PF in boiling water prior to this?

- sorry a bit confused with the sticking the thermo up the spout....

- so use single pressurised, run a couple of shots....I don't understand this PF spout and this jet of water?


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

oh do you mean up the 2 spout things where the coffee comes out? I get ya

why use the pressurised basket?


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> oh do you mean up the 2 spout things where the coffee comes out? I get ya
> 
> why use the pressurised basket?


 You need to create a resistance through the heating system otherwise it won't be accurate


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

ok cool

so when pulling the shot just stick the thermo up & see....ill give it a go & report back


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> ok cool
> 
> so when pulling the shot just stick the thermo up & see....ill give it a go & report back


 Yep. 
record max temp for each shot, from 1st onwards. Then you'll know how many you need to do to hit temp


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

ah ok...taking 2/3 would be acceptable as we run this amount of shots to warm the components up......

but what if it takes 5/6/7+? Surely not meant to do that & will be wasting a lot of £/water say 150ml of water wasted just warming the machine & getting water up to temp?


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> ah ok...taking 2/3 would be acceptable as we run this amount of shots to warm the components up......
> 
> but what if it takes 5/6/7+? Surely not meant to do that & will be wasting a lot of £/water say 150ml of water wasted just warming the machine & getting water up to temp?


 Test it!


----------



## 8144

Wisey said:


> Finally, the journey begins.........
> 
> View attachment 43312


 This is soon to be my set-up too, just waiting on the grinder! How are you getting on with it now?


----------



## Wisey

@condy01

to be honest mate, still a way to go on the journey! Bear in my I'm a complete novice with no experience of proper coffee machines (got a nespresso)

grinder is good but took some time to get the grind in the ball park (in terms of 17g in, 34-40g out within 25-31 seconds)....again, this could've been completely due to my inexperience

in terms of outcome - making drinkable but not particularly enjoyable drinks (not even attempted milk frothing as want to get the taste right first)......

getting the ratios right & timings but taste just not great......gotta test the water temp as advised by @TomHughes so that could throw up some answers to the taste question

but - still fun trying, unfortunately I just don't get an hour or 2 where I can just mess about...it's all an hour here, an hour in 3 days

but, this thread has been great..all the advice but the journey & the fact people were interested & interacting was great


----------



## 8144

Wisey said:


> @condy01
> 
> to be honest mate, still a way to go on the journey! Bear in my I'm a complete novice with no experience of proper coffee machines (got a nespresso)
> 
> grinder is good but took some time to get the grind in the ball park (in terms of 17g in, 34-40g out within 25-31 seconds)....again, this could've been completely due to my inexperience
> 
> in terms of outcome - making drinkable but not particularly enjoyable drinks (not even attempted milk frothing as want to get the taste right first)......
> 
> getting the ratios right & timings but taste just not great......gotta test the water temp as advised by @TomHughes so that could throw up some answers to the taste question
> 
> but - still fun trying, unfortunately I just don't get an hour or 2 where I can just mess about...it's all an hour here, an hour in 3 days
> 
> but, this thread has been great..all the advice but the journey & the fact people were interested & interacting was great


 It's definitely a steep learning curve, but having used the Sage DTP for over a year now I can say that it's definitely capable of pulling some great shots so just a matter of practice makes perfect. I'm by no means an expert myself and the whole experience is quite frustrating at times but it's still fun and interesting at the same time.

Yeah this forum is really useful, it's where I found recommendations for the grinder. I also found the videos James Hoffman did on dialling in espresso really useful too. YouTube is your friend, although you can end up down a massive rabbit hole ! Lol


----------



## Wisey

When cleaning -

can anyone tell me if it's worked

i put the blanking disk in with no basket but the water just came out the pf.....so I put a basket in (single dual wall)...

then ran some shots to flush it....after a few I removed the pf and it was just frothy white water......

does that mean it's worked & flushed the insides as it should? I'm not sure if that's how it should be, or should the pf be empty an all the frothy water in the machine until I run some shots to get the cleaning fluid out??


----------



## NJD1977

The water shouldn't be coming out of the portafilter with a blanking disc in?


----------



## Wisey

@NJD1977

it did, but then I put a dual single basket in....is this right?

in the manual it doesn't say anything about putting a basket in that's all


----------



## NJD1977

I'm not familiar with the sage dtp but in normal backflushing operations, you put a blank basket in (or a blanking plate as you have mentioned) and when you turn the machine on, no water should come from the portafilter, it should be hitting the blank and then being forced back inside the machine. You shouldn't get leakage at the blank when backflushing.


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> then I put a dual single basket in....is this right?


 With the BE you put the single cup basket in, then put the rubber blanking disc (with cleaning tablet) on that. I imagine it's the same for the DTP.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

so once you've done the flush is your basket full of white froth or is it all inside the machine until you pull shots?

does it sound like mine worked (only thing I did is use single dual wall basket)


----------



## 24774

It's not inside machine, it's all in the drip tray. I empty that, run a few cycles to clear out any fluid and that's it.

There might be some undissolved tablet in the blanking disc in pf, that's natural. That's why I run the process twice, to dissolved 99% of it.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

so does it sound like mine worked or not??

when I've run the shots with the tablet in, then take the pf off, should the frothy liquid be in the pf or inside the machine until I've run a couple of shots to get it out? @TomHughes can you help as you had the machine


----------



## facboy

I have a Bambino Plus but that sounds normal. it never seems to dissolve the tablet very well (i crush mine first to help it), it always leaves a fair bit of the tablet in the portafilter.

if you think about it, there's always going to be water left in the basket after a backflush, with the blanking disc in the basket is effectively a bucket, where is the water going to go?

i'd normally run a single shot or two afterwards to flush out any remaining cleaner.


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @CocoLoco
> 
> so does it sound like mine worked or not??
> 
> when I've run the shots with the tablet in, then take the pf off, should the frothy liquid be in the pf or inside the machine until I've run a couple of shots to get it out? @TomHughes can you help as you had the machine


 The frothy liquid should be inside the PF. 
You don't have a solenoid so not sure you can actually backflush it. You are just cleaning the head. 
Your disc should have a small hole in it.

Have you tested the temp yet?


----------



## 8144

Wisey said:


> @condy01
> 
> to be honest mate, still a way to go on the journey! Bear in my I'm a complete novice with no experience of proper coffee machines (got a nespresso)
> 
> grinder is good but took some time to get the grind in the ball park (in terms of 17g in, 34-40g out within 25-31 seconds)....again, this could've been completely due to my inexperience
> 
> in terms of outcome - making drinkable but not particularly enjoyable drinks (not even attempted milk frothing as want to get the taste right first)......
> 
> getting the ratios right & timings but taste just not great......gotta test the water temp as advised by @TomHughes so that could throw up some answers to the taste question
> 
> but - still fun trying, unfortunately I just don't get an hour or 2 where I can just mess about...it's all an hour here, an hour in 3 days
> 
> but, this thread has been great..all the advice but the journey & the fact people were interested & interacting was great


 Any more luck dialling in? I receive my grinder yesterday and must have burned through about 250g just now to produce not a bad shot but still taking too long to pull and so a bit on the over extracted side of things but actually not too bad once it cooled. The grinder is fantastic though!


----------



## Wisey

@condy01

yeah I'm in the time slot & it is drinkable - it's just not - really enjoyable....maybe it's my palate?

the start of the coffee is decent but as it gets to the end it gets very bitter & strong


----------



## 8144

Wisey said:


> @condy01
> 
> yeah I'm in the time slot & it is drinkable - it's just not - really enjoyable....maybe it's my palate?
> 
> the start of the coffee is decent but as it gets to the end it gets very bitter & strong


 It sounds like you're heading in the right direction though. Mine was more the opposite. A bit bitter at the beginning and then not too bad but not amazing. I'm just about to order a kilo of coffee to hopefully get in the right area for 'good'... i'll take 'good' at this stage! haha


----------



## Wisey

@condy01

i feel I've made progress but now hit a wall.....unless it's just the coffee is getting past its best (4 1/2 weeks old) & won't get any better

suppose slightly disheartening thing is gotta start this all over again if buying a new coffee! Maybe won't take as long to get to this stage but still.....


----------



## 8144

Wisey said:


> @condy01
> 
> i feel I've made progress but now hit a wall.....unless it's just the coffee is getting past its best (4 1/2 weeks old) & won't get any better
> 
> suppose slightly disheartening thing is gotta start this all over again if buying a new coffee! Maybe won't take as long to get to this stage but still.....


 4 1/2 weeks I'd say might be a little bit past it's best and from stuff I've read on here the Sage machines work best with fresh coffee. I think 7-10 day old is when I get my best results and around those dates the results vary from OK to not so OK but still perfectly drinkable.

I guess it depends on whether you drastically change roast type and beans. From my experience with the Sage pro grinder once you are in the ball park with say a medium roast and the next batch is also a medium roast you'd not have to make lots of adjustments to dial in. When I went from medium to light roast that's when it would get tricky as I tend to find lighter roasts are a bit more difficult to really nail a decent shot.

All good fun!!


----------



## 24774

condy01 said:


> 4 1/2 weeks I'd say might be a little bit past it's best


 Depends on the coffee. Square Mile told me not to open their Red Brick for 3 weeks, said it comes into it's own past then.

@Wisey If you're running out but like the coffee you have, maybe buy it again? You'll be able to compare the tastes you've had with the ones you get at least. Not necessary though. I found one or two coffees 'hard to work with' in the beginning. One Caravan one was a nightmare, I gave up and gave it away on the forum. Switched to a Rave one and things clicked. From there was able to learn how to adjust things.


----------



## 8144

CocoLoco said:


> Depends on the coffee. Square Mile told me not to open their Red Brick for 3 weeks, said it comes into it's own past then.
> 
> @Wisey If you're running out but like the coffee you have, maybe buy it again? You'll be able to compare the tastes you've had with the ones you get at least. Not necessary though. I found one or two coffees 'hard to work with' in the beginning. One Caravan one was a nightmare, I gave up and gave it away on the forum. Switched to a Rave one and things clicked. From there was able to learn how to adjust things.


 OK, that's interesting re the RedBrick as I tried that and whilst they were nice maybe didn't get the best out of them. Might have to give them another go and try waiting a few weeks until I crack em open.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

yeah exactly my thoughts now.....first coffee was chocolate blend from black cat...

just got a free sample from BB....

in terms of my next purchase - yeah do I stick with the chocolate blend just to keep my learning curve consistent or do I go with the fudge blend of race....interesting to try a new one & hopefully won't have to waste a lot dialling it in?


----------



## TomHughes

How dark are they roasted? With a darker roast depending on how it's stored you are going to get considerable changes and probably need to grind finer after a month. Should still be able I get some good flavour out of it though


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

medium dark on the website


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> medium dark on the website


 What does it look like?

Have you tested the temp yet?


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

posted in other thread but -

The blanking disc doesn't have a hole in it??

did 6 shots & it got upto 90 degrees......shots 3/4/5 got to about 88


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> posted in other thread but -
> 
> The blanking disc doesn't have a hole in it??
> 
> did 6 shots & it got upto 90 degrees......shots 3/4/5 got to about 88
> 
> View attachment 44411


 Mine had a hole in it. Which it should if the machine doesn't have a solenoid. 
you need to find this out.

Re. Temp. That's too low and would explain your poor shots. 
I'd send it back or stick to dark dark roasts


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

this thing about the solenoid - surely no matter what is inside the machine it still needs cleaning because bad stuff will clog it up?? If the only reason for doing it is to clean the group head, why do they say to do the cycle..why not just advise to remove the group head (is that the holes the water/coffee come through into the pf?) and soak it in some water?

what is the significance of the hole in the blanking disc?

ultimately sticking to dark roasts isn't a solution if a machine is faulty is it, it's gotta be in full working order for all roasts..I'll speak to sage .......

thanks for your help


----------



## 8144

CocoLoco said:


> Depends on the coffee. Square Mile told me not to open their Red Brick for 3 weeks, said it comes into it's own past then.
> 
> @Wisey If you're running out but like the coffee you have, maybe buy it again? You'll be able to compare the tastes you've had with the ones you get at least. Not necessary though. I found one or two coffees 'hard to work with' in the beginning. One Caravan one was a nightmare, I gave up and gave it away on the forum. Switched to a Rave one and things clicked. From there was able to learn how to adjust things.


 http://www.squaremileblog.com/2020/02/21/red-brick-and-freshness/


----------



## 24774

condy01 said:


> http://www.squaremileblog.com/2020/02/21/red-brick-and-freshness/


 Great thanks, that goes into good detail. So 3 weeks for sweetest, 4 weeks for 'best'.

Ideally you want this kind of info for every bean! Although maybe I don't check roaster's blogs enough, I'm sure there's more guidance available, I've just missed it. I only knew that one as Square Mile told me.


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

i think my machine is faulty anyway.........

ive emptied & dried the drip tray, when I've run some shots/made a drink, there's a bit of water in the drip tray....I don't think it can be dripping water from the pf as I put a cloth on the drip tray to soak it up

when I've removed the drip tray, there's a tiny bit of water from the ledge between the drip tray & the accessories tray - see pic below...so it's leaking from inside??

ps - with the cleaning issue- was my understanding of a backflush that in the manual photo I sent? If it is the same, the fact it says in the manual about doing it surely means the machine is supposed to be back flushed?? [IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG][IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG]


----------



## Joe shorrock

Your blanking disk shouldn't have a hole in anyway, the newer machines do not, they backflush into the drip tray instead


----------



## Wisey

@Joe shorrock

so when I'm making drinks & there's water in the drip tray does it sound like there's a leak?

coming from just under the silver bit of the machine where the drip tray slides in


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> ive emptied & dried the drip tray, when I've run some shots/made a drink, there's a bit of water in the drip tray....I don't think it can be dripping water from the pf as I put a cloth on the drip tray to soak it up


 That is normal. The drip tray isn't just to catch drips from the pf, it's 99% for excess water from making the coffee. I'm not sure exactly how the machine works, but water runs off into the drip tray (discharged water) in the process of making a coffee.


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

ah ok, it just doesn't seem right it's dripping from the 'inside of the machine'?


----------



## 24774

Wisey said:


> @CocoLoco
> 
> ah ok, it just doesn't seem right it's dripping from the 'inside of the machine'?


 I guess there's a run off pipe in there for excess water or excess steam or something. Don't worry it's normal. Mine does that, I've seen it discussed on YouTube.


----------



## facboy

surely it's completely normal for any machine? if you choke the machine (or eg put the blanking disc in, which Sage have supplied you so obviously they expect you to use it), it has to vent the excess pressure somewhere when it stops. it vents it (along with any water that might be expelled at the same time) into the drip tray doesn't it?


----------



## dutchy101

My Bambino has just started doing this and when I contacted Sage about it they are replacing the machine. I'd contact them about it to see what they say


----------



## Wisey

@facboy @CocoLoco

thanks lads


----------



## Wisey

@dutchy101

what has yours started doing?


----------



## Adam.f

if you read the warning on the drip tray itself, it says that it is for water and steam purging/venting and that the tray should be kept in place when using the machine so it can dispenser water. just as a test take the drip tray out and turn on the machine watch under where the drip tray sits and you will see the machine run some water (just be ready with a towel to mop up a little water!!), same when you steam and then turn the steam off after steaming the machine releases the pressure in to the drip tray to get it ready for the next time.


----------



## dutchy101

@WiseyWater has started leaking into the drip tray whenever I run a shot. Even with no coffee in the portafilter and just warming up the grouphead. There is definitely something wrong as it is wasting so much water and it has only just started after a few months of not doing it at all


----------



## Wisey

@dutchy101

yeah same with me....people above say it's normal though??

but same, doesn't seem right to me....

wasting however many ml of water running blank shots to warm the machine up then it's leaking more into the drip tray from inside the machine somewhere.....

it's like a 40ml espresso shot uses 180ml of water!


----------



## dutchy101

Contact Sage mate. They are supposedly replacing mine but still waiting for them to reply to my last message


----------



## facboy

honestly, dutchy's problem sounds different, he's said it's started doing something that it didn't used to do before.

yours is a brand new machine, the amount of water you've shown in your photo looks completely normal to me (albeit i have a Bambino).

in my experience as a fellow n00bie, the No. 1 source of problems and inconsistency in making espresso (as a n00b) is the operator.


----------



## Wisey

@facboy

oh absolutely agree the taste of the coffee is down to me...

im just saying about this slight leak into the drip tray from inside the machine....

I think to start off with I thought worst case you'd have the machine on for 20 mins to warm up then you're good to go...

rhe fact you've gotta run 3-4 shots then make a coffee so wasting 100ml of water every drink you make just seems...unbelievable...in this day and age with technology I can't believe machines are spot on?


----------



## facboy

everybody has their rituals, i don't run 3-4 shots. i run one, and i might stop doing that too. mostly i use that to just flush any coffee grounds remaining on the shower screen.

the main reason people are running extra shots is in some senses because of the new technology. afaik in a 'traditional' boiler the machine would take 30-45 minutes to heat up before it could produce a usable shot, and by the time the boiler(s) are up to operating temperature all the pipework etc is up to temperature too through basic conduction. In the Sage machines which use a thermocoil or thermojet, it is ready to operate in 3 seconds, there is no time for the pipework to get up to temperature. you really want to someone to open up a DTP or bambino, i suspect most of the 'pipework' per se is PTFE or silicon tubing and it doesn't require warming at all. the group head in the bambino is plastic.

i'm not sure there's a machine on the market that starts in 3 seconds and has precise control of its output temperature down to single degree accuracy (if there is i'm sure one of the many experts on this forum will know of it). if there is, i bet it doesn't retail at £400. even if such things actually made a difference detectable to the connoisseur, i guarantee the market Sage is targeting with these machines (like me) would not be able to taste it.

if it bothers you that much, don't run the warm up shots. get your grind, distribution, tamp, and timing consistent first, then run the warm up shots and see if you can tell the difference.


----------



## Wisey

I really can't get the shower screen off to clean it....tried using spoons but they're close to snapping!! Around the shower screen is a rubber seal & im worried I'm going to break it

any tips how to get it off? I know I I can't just leave it but I just can't see how I'm going to get it off


----------



## cuprajake

Have you taken the allen key screw out the middle?

And can you grind beans so you can get 40g out in 35secs?


----------



## Wisey

@Cuprajake

yeah got the screw out the middle

not sure about the 40g out in 35 seconds, I haven't tried them measurements......why those??


----------



## cuprajake

First time it was tough to get my screen out aswell.

Just try pulling longer so rather than 1:2 try 1:3 or even 1:4

See how it effects the shot.


----------



## Wisey

@Cuprajake what did you end up using?? I've used a teaspoon & it Bent!

oh you mean to do it for taste or temperature??


----------



## Wisey

I've got some milk buster from Bella barista....

made a couple of drinks, ok...had the beans in the freezer...

last drink I made couple of days ago it took like 45 seconds for the 34g..

so this morning I've made it slightly courser & the machine completely choked......loosened it off a tad, tried again - nothing!

both time when I took the pf off it almost popped like opening a can of coke, the first time the puck had swollen massively

whats gone wrong?


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - Dude it's 36 days and 269 posts since you started this thread! Definitely an endeavour of epic proportions by now 😅

Grinding frozen beans makes them go a lot finer. It sounds like you aren't controlling your inputs/variables consistently.

Did you look into the online/real life training courses yet, might help a lot in terms of faster feedback?


----------



## Jony

I was thinking the same thing 270 posts


----------



## 24774

@Wisey Did you book in to the free Sage webinar tomorrow night? I'm doing it so if you have questions about it I might be able to help out there.


----------



## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

@Jony

really helpful comments thanks fellas......interesting to know that people are experts & have no questions/issues after around of a month of having their first machine...can't believe I'm the only person who hasn't perfected it yet


----------



## Wisey

@CocoLoco

no I can't do it, at work


----------



## Jony

No expert don't think I said that, and I did have issues with my grinder that lasted a few days. And still today I struggle with beans.


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @Northern_Monkey
> 
> @Jony
> 
> really helpful comments thanks fellas......interesting to know that people are experts & have no questions/issues after around of a month of having their first machine...can't believe I'm the only person who hasn't perfected it yet


 I didn't think @Northern_Monkeys comments were that bad.

Let's be honest, this has been a difficult thread for most of the people on here too! As much as it has been frustrating for you some of us feel like we've been banging our heads against a brick wall.

Sorry if this gets personal but heres how I see it.

You agonised over your machine for ages, mostly because of the hope of sales I guess. It didn't sound like you were really into coffee but you wanted to take up a new hobby. 
You asked question after question, without even having the machine, most of the answers could easily be found on here, or google for that matter. 
This is going to start to erk some people as they get fed up of trying to direct you to stuff.

Finally, you got your machine, and the questions kept coming.

Personally I work in academia and often have to deal with constant questions from people who are innocently trying to gain knowledge but either lack the skills or the will to find it out for themselves. 
I get asked for papers detailing this and that, when they need to learn to find the papers themselves via pubmed or similar, otherwise they will never truly acquire the skills.

I also have a background in clinical medicine, where we would get bollocked for asking questions before we had tried to find a solution.

So now we are in a situation where you have your machine, but you can't get it to produce what you want. 
You continually ignored me when I said the temp was too low, I think this has been proven and you need to change the machine or do a long and laborious warm up.

This journey is NOT short, many on here have spent a decade acquiring knowledge and skills to perfect espresso. Together with acquiring the right kit and knowing how to use it.

Your situation is NOT unique, therefore the answers are out there if you want to search for them.

Sorry if that is hard to hear, but it's the honest truth.


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

agonising over the machine - I originally was going for the BE or BE pro but listened to the advice of people & took it....to me £500+ for a coffee machine is expensive, maybe not for people who have been into this for years/maybe earn big bucks, but for me it's an expensive purchase hence why I wanted to make sure I made the right choice before spending that money

received the machine - this is a long journey, as people have said it takes time to crack it, even experienced people meet stumbling blocks & have questions, so surely I'm constantly going to come up against things I haven't experienced before so I'm gona have questions?

yeah I can google it etc but I like the personal touch of communication...if you've have the machine/you've been in coffee 15 years, why would I just read something on google that could've been written by anyone when I can ask you who will have experience of the machine & is class you as a trusted source being on here & wanting the interaction/be helpful

So here's my honesty - when people say things like 'this thread is difficult for most on here' - I think that's such a stupid comment.......this is a thread about my journey, If you are interested & want to help, read my post & be helpful, constructive.......if you don't want to help, if it's too difficult for you, stop reading my posts & don't waste your time replying......nobody is forced on this site to read/reply to others, you make it sound like people have to do both!!!!

People who follow stars on social media & just slate them as they don't like them, well but sad really and they have too much time on their hands hating others rather than concentrating on something that'll make them/others happy..

I appreciate all advice & always try what people say however, You say it irks people when they try guide me & I don't listen - I do listen, but in some instances there's numerous differing opinions so I can't do them all can I? If someone gives me advice, don't take your ball home if I don't take it...maybe someone has given me different advice that has worked??

.....FYI I did listen to your advice about temp & i'm in the process of communicating with sage.....

Bluntly, i appreciate all advice & if you want to help me please read my posts & be helpful......if you don't want to help, unfollow my thread & don't waste your time.....simple


----------



## Northern_Monkey

@Wisey - I really wasn't trying to be unkind, tone and attempts at humour online don't always come across as intended. I was hoping the emojis would help a bit 😉

I'm not an expert, still ask silly questions and make attempts at coffee that I'm not exactly proud of...

A bit like Tom I do come from a research/science/tech background though, so really like problem solving/process optimisation, reading different sources for a consensus view and controlling variables to test things. It's like science but less risky and you get to taste the results!

Also helps that we don't have kids and I work mostly during the week so I have more "play time" available for coffee stuff.

I think going back to basics, changing a single variable at a time, buying 3kg of the same coffee, taking notes and allocating a weekend to it if possible would really help your coffee. If you can't allocate the time to it then it is likely to take longer.

Your journey though and I wish you good luck with it, as the fun is in the finding out! 👍


----------



## TomHughes

@Wisey
That sounds fine to me! 
Good luck in your journey.


----------



## cuprajake

perhaps you just dont like espresso, i dont/didnt most mine is americano

fwiw use a med dark bean, something more soluable, i never really went nuts running shot after shot, and i always pulled like 45g out in around 35 seconds


----------



## BlackCatCoffee

Cuprajake said:


> perhaps you just dont like espresso, i dont/didnt most mine is americano
> 
> fwiw use a med dark bean, something more soluable, i never really went nuts running shot after shot, and i always pulled like 45g out in around 35 seconds


 I really feel this could be a big part of the problem that @Wisey is facing.

I have suggested steaming some milk up to make a flat white or having it as an americano, basically preparing however you would normally drink it. I partially understand your rational of needing to be able to get espresso tasty before you move on to milk however what I would say is this - I like a nice brandy occasionally, a beautiful XO is a real treat for me. I take it straight, no ice and I savour it. Now I have a friend who dislikes neat brandy but his go to drink it brandy and coke, he quaffs it like it is going out of fashion. I realise this is an imperfect analogy but I am sure you see the point I am making.

Espresso is not for everyone who loves coffee and that is fine, it can be a bold and overwhelming thing. You may find your tastes change as you continue your journey and want to revisit it. Just give yourself a fighting chance at the start and prepare a drink that you KNOW you like.

David


----------



## BaristaofBards

Northern_Monkey said:


> I think going back to basics, changing a single variable at a time, buying 3kg of the same coffee, taking notes and allocating a weekend to it if possible would really help your coffee. If you can't allocate the time to it then it is likely to take longer.


 Haha, I have been trying this but perhaps the fact that I've only managed 500g at a time is my problem! I have to admit I struggle with keep getting it wrong and give up for a bit as I feel it's a hobby and therefore should be enjoyable. I am only adjusting my grind but then I think I subconsciously change my tamping. Keeping 14g constant and attempting to get 1:2 at about 28secs give or take is proving beyond me! Short shots taste flipping awful and long ones are a let down... I'll get there


----------



## Wisey

@Northern_Monkey

i truly apologise that I got the wrong end of the stick...

unfortunately i don't have that much play time, definately not a weekend!


----------



## Wisey

@Cuprajake

@BlackCatCoffee

i totally agree with what you're saying....for the last couple of weeks I have been making it with a bit of milk & topping it up with hot water (not really had time to start actually frothing milk so been using normal warmed milk)....

that's partly the problem, the coffee has maybe tasted bitter towards the end of a 'watered' down espresso...


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

my only attitude is if you dont want to help then don't comment....replying 'google it' isn't really helpful....this is a forum, meant for help/discussion

if you don't like my attitude because you feel I don't take your advice - well firstly, I have listened to & taken your advice & secondly as I've said there's so many different opinions/suggestions I can't do everyone's....you can't spit your dummy out just because someone doesn't do your suggestion every time


----------



## TomHughes

Wisey said:


> @TomHughes
> 
> my only attitude is if you dont want to help then don't comment....replying 'google it' isn't really helpful....this is a forum, meant for help/discussion
> 
> if you don't like my attitude because you feel I don't take your advice - well firstly, I have listened to & taken your advice & secondly as I've said there's so many different opinions/suggestions I can't do everyone's....you can't spit your dummy out just because someone doesn't do your suggestion every time


 Meh, give it a rest now. 
On countless occasions you have tagged people to try and get more advice from them after ignoring what they were saying. 
If you just want some nice coffee maybe just frequent a cafe? 
Without being in your actual house using your actual machine with all the stuff you have they can't really help you that much.

Why are you unwilling to learn anything yourself?


----------



## cuprajake

Think youve both said your peace now so best leave it,

I have kinda distanced myself from this thread, for the above reasons. I knew nothing about coffee 6 months ago. I spent hrs reading, researching and found all the answers to the questions you have asked. Its all on this forum, the search tool is very good. Not being arsey but ive invested the time, so why should i have to spoon feed it.

Theres enough info in this thread alone to start.

If it were me, let the machine warm for 20 mins, then make a flat white.


----------



## Wisey

@Cuprajake

yeah I have been leaving it on for 20 mins or so & running a couple of shots before making it to my taste - ie adding hot water & milk.

as stated above, I thought this was a forum to communicate & share experiences/knowledge...it's part of the 'experience' having interaction real time with people who have/are experiencing the same.....any can google and find articles written by someone I've never heard of & never will speak to


----------



## cuprajake

see i dont agree with running shots on such a small machine, youre dragging colder water through

a form is a helpful place for sure, but its give and take, do a bit of research and ask the odd question.. thats all my point was


----------



## Wisey

@Cuprajake

re running shots - people like Tom Hughes suggested this....hence why people can't get upset if I don't take their advice, there's so much difference in opinion on here it's great to listen to everyone & see what works for my machine.


----------



## Ljeezy

Have you ever had an espresso from a good coffee shop?


----------



## Wisey

@Ljeezy

no only your usual chain shops


----------



## Wisey

For some reason pre infusion was about 11.5s then was getting 34g in about 31 seconds ish...now pre infusion is like 15 seconds, & it's dribbling out and taking 50 seconds to get the 34g...beans only 9 days old..

why have things changed like this? If I make it finer it chokes the machine


----------



## Wisey

Why does the basket look fuller with certain coffees & should I increase the g I use?

with the black cat 17g really filled the basket....im now using a race coffee and the basket seems emptier..

should I increase the g of coffee I use??


----------



## El carajillo

Stick to the weight in gms, this will be consistent, if you change grind / beans, this can change the ''bulk'' of the bean in the basket but keep weight (mass) consistent, adjust grind to maintain timing


----------



## Doram

Wisey said:


> Why does the basket look fuller with certain coffees


 Some beans are denser than others, and the roast level can also affect the volume of the ground beans. This is why you need to measure by weight rather than volume. This is also why some basket brands (IMS) sell the baskets by height ('26mm' rather than '18 grams'), because the basket's weight capacity will vary depending on the coffee used.


----------



## El carajillo

The height / depth of the basket is included for information as to the depth relevant to the porta-filter.

The deeper baskets will not fit in many standard P /F only in naked / bottomless P/F's


----------



## Wisey

Ok great thanks lads...I am still using medium/dark roast....

I'll stick to the gram & adjust the grind

it just looked empty compared to a really full basket with a different brand coffee


----------



## Wisey

@TomHughes

@Cuprajake

@CocoLoco

hi Tom, if interested it's finally been agreed By sage that they'll exchange my machine... after numerous videos & photos sent of the temp not getting past 90 degrees

thanks for the advice, hopefully it'll help!


----------



## Wisey

An update from me -

really happy with my machine, grinder & airscape....

Beans - surprising to my me I'm trying different coffee brands - black cat, rave, Bella barista, pact....I thought I would've just stuck with the one I liked, to be fair I just look for the good offers & try them. 
I have just bought one from extract coffee roasters after seeing the offer on here.....must admit I'm a bit disappointed, got a bag the other day & it had been roaster on the 23/12/20.....all other coffee I've received has been roasted a day or 2 before..

machine/grinder - really like them both...all beans maybe need a slight tweak to dial in but really easy

cup - I'm so fussy with coffee/cups - I don't drink it at work as it doesn't taste right - whether it's the water/the cup I don't know.... I acquired this cup a few years ago, 1 broke when I moved house. I found them but a dozen were £38..the Yorkshireman in me wouldn't pay that when I only wanted a couple.........found some new on e bay - 12 for £13.....DONE!! So happy!

overall, do I love my machine - yes.....am I glad I bought it - yes....if I could go back would I still buy it - yes!

the only negative is I haven't got into the milk frothing yet....Making coffee from scratch didn't please the Mrs anyway with kids about so I reduced the hate by not them frothing milk also...I've never put time aside really to master the frothing which is something I should do..but I make 3 a day, 2 when kids are about so I don't really have the time to put into mastering it...or when I do on an evening, I choose to put the PS5 on 😂

fortunately I don't feel the massive need to upgrade, yeah some machines look nice but do I feel I need to drop an extra £800 on one? No, I'm happy with mine!


----------



## _HH_

Glad you got there Wisey!

I hope you won't mind me admitting to a small chuckle when you mentioned milk frothing. If espresso is a journey I'd say latte art is more like Frodo's trip to Mordor...

...but he got to Mount Doom in the end


----------



## salty

Great to hear this @Wisey ;


----------



## Baffo

Wisey said:


> An update from me -
> 
> really happy with my machine, grinder & airscape....
> 
> Beans - surprising to my me I'm trying different coffee brands - black cat, rave, Bella barista, pact....I thought I would've just stuck with the one I liked, to be fair I just look for the good offers & try them.
> I have just bought one from extract coffee roasters after seeing the offer on here.....must admit I'm a bit disappointed, got a bag the other day & it had been roaster on the 23/12/20.....all other coffee I've received has been roasted a day or 2 before..
> 
> machine/grinder - really like them both...all beans maybe need a slight tweak to dial in but really easy
> 
> cup - I'm so fussy with coffee/cups - I don't drink it at work as it doesn't taste right - whether it's the water/the cup I don't know.... I acquired this cup a few years ago, 1 broke when I moved house. I found them but a dozen were £38..the Yorkshireman in me wouldn't pay that when I only wanted a couple.........found some new on e bay - 12 for £13.....DONE!! So happy!
> 
> overall, do I love my machine - yes.....am I glad I bought it - yes....if I could go back would I still buy it - yes!
> 
> the only negative is I haven't got into the milk frothing yet....Making coffee from scratch didn't please the Mrs anyway with kids about so I reduced the hate by not them frothing milk also...I've never put time aside really to master the frothing which is something I should do..but I make 3 a day, 2 when kids are about so I don't really have the time to put into mastering it...or when I do on an evening, I choose to put the PS5 on 😂
> 
> fortunately I don't feel the massive need to upgrade, yeah some machines look nice but do I feel I need to drop an extra £800 on one? No, I'm happy with mine!


 Hi Wisey, would you mind sharing "what happened"? You clearly have gone through a process of learning and development that did not find space in these pages which ultimately had you make better shots (I think?). I think it would be helpful to many other starters like me


----------



## Wisey

@Baffo

hi mate....

basically I was a total newbie to coffee only ever having a nespresso machine & then dipping into Tesco bought ground coffee for cafetière

I didn't know where to start in buying a machine & grinder, I was looking at decent but not totally basic..

After speaking on here I eventually got the sage duo temp pro machine & eureka mignon specialista grinder.

I started off just not making nice tasting coffee, it was suggested I forget what the double espresso tasted like & just make it into what I like...eventually I did (& thinking I've never had a double espresso so no wonder it doesn't taste right)....

So I now pull shots in the required time (25-30 seconds)...

I haven't strayed from 17g, I always use the same no matter what brand im using....

I've got coffee from various roasters just depending on the best discount I can get

this site can be really useful for you mate however, be aware some people don't have a lot of patience

for me as a compete new person, I wanted advice from more experienced people but a lot expect you to just read other posts already written....which to me isn't what I wanted...I mean look at mine, can you be bothered to read through 12 pages of writing?!

Also, I did allot of research & questioning at all stages - which machine to get etc etc

again - to me £700 is a decent amount & I didn't want to make a rash decision & regret it but for some it's like a 'go buy it right now'....some experienced people just seemed a bit patient

anything you want just ask


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## Baffo

Wisey said:


> @Baffo
> 
> hi mate....
> 
> basically I was a total newbie to coffee only ever having a nespresso machine & then dipping into Tesco bought ground coffee for cafetière
> 
> I didn't know where to start in buying a machine & grinder, I was looking at decent but not totally basic..
> 
> After speaking on here I eventually got the sage duo temp pro machine & eureka mignon specialista grinder.
> 
> I started off just not making nice tasting coffee, it was suggested I forget what the double espresso tasted like & just make it into what I like...eventually I did (& thinking I've never had a double espresso so no wonder it doesn't taste right)....
> 
> So I now pull shots in the required time (25-30 seconds)...
> 
> I haven't strayed from 17g, I always use the same no matter what brand im using....
> 
> I've got coffee from various roasters just depending on the best discount I can get
> 
> this site can be really useful for you mate however, be aware some people don't have a lot of patience
> 
> for me as a compete new person, I wanted advice from more experienced people but a lot expect you to just read other posts already written....which to me isn't what I wanted...I mean look at mine, can you be bothered to read through 12 pages of writing?!
> 
> Also, I did allot of research & questioning at all stages - which machine to get etc etc
> 
> again - to me £700 is a decent amount & I didn't want to make a rash decision & regret it but for some it's like a 'go buy it right now'....some experienced people just seemed a bit patient
> 
> anything you want just ask


 Thanks! And, as a matter of fact, I did read through the 13 pages of this! I skipped the bits about water leaking which weren't really relevant for me. I just "saw myself in you", trying to learn how to make the journey more rewarding (but keeping in mind that no matter what, it'll be a long journey and it *will* be frustrating at times).

Do you still dislike your espressos if you try them? To be honest I don't know what to think, across the UK I find most of the cool "coffee shops" make near-undrinkable brown lemon water, but when I go to Italy I'm like loving the hell out of what they make there. I still don't know if I can say I like espresso.


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## Missy

Baffo said:


> Thanks! And, as a matter of fact, I did read through the 13 pages of this! I skipped the bits about water leaking which weren't really relevant for me. I just "saw myself in you", trying to learn how to make the journey more rewarding (but keeping in mind that no matter what, it'll be a long journey and it *will* be frustrating at times).
> 
> Do you still dislike your espressos if you try them? To be honest I don't know what to think, across the UK I find most of the cool "coffee shops" make near-undrinkable brown lemon water, but when I go to Italy I'm like loving the hell out of what they make there. I still don't know if I can say I like espresso.


 You want a dark roasted bean and you'll be away! Coffee compass are my go to for dark sticky coffee "like in Italy" (Where my hubby manages to ddissolve 3 tsp sugar in the teeny tiny ristretto!)


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