# Silvia or Sage DTP



## Undecided

I have an old Starbucks Barista (Saeco) single boiler that is reaching the end of its life. I also have a Mazzer Mini grinder (about 10 years old) and that works really well. I'm looking for a replacement for the Starbucks Barista which is nearly 20 years old and beyond repair.

My initial thoughts were the Rancilio Silvia, but a knowledgeable coffee person suggested the Sage DTP. I don't want to spend more than about £500, and I'm not keen on the cost or hassle of modifications so I won't be adding a PID to the Silvia. I also want to buy new with a decent warranty.

It looks like I could get the DTP for about £300, or the Silvia from a reputable place for £450. I generally only make one cappuccino at a time, occasionally 2. When we have more people, I just use a cafetière.

Based on the above I would appreciate help with this decision.

Thanks


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## Dylan

Without a PID, the Silvia is not particularly temperature stable, learning to 'temperature surf' (pulling a shot at a specific part of the heat cycle) becomes important if you want to pull your coffee at the same temp each time.

Afaik the DTP is rather good for stability, but I have not seen any concrete measurement in this regard.

The Silvia is very likely to outlast the DTP many times over, and its price reflects it's build quality.

The 'best' option of the two is a Silvia+PID. It may be worth considering buying a pre-modded one via eBay or the like, there are also a couple of people on here with a meCoffee PID, which is worth looking in to, although I think there were a few that failed.


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## radam87

Dylan said:


> Without a PID, the Silvia is not particularly temperature stable, learning to 'temperature surf' (pulling a shot at a specific part of the heat cycle) becomes important if you want to pull your coffee at the same temp each time.
> 
> Afaik the DTP is rather good for stability, but I have not seen any concrete measurement in this regard.
> 
> The Silvia is very likely to outlast the DTP many times over, and its price reflects it's build quality.
> 
> The 'best' option of the two is a Silvia+PID. It may be worth considering buying a pre-modded one via eBay or the like, there are also a couple of people on here with a meCoffee PID, which is worth looking in to, although I think there were a few that failed.


I have the DTP.

Given the choice, I'd take the Silvia if it had the PID. Without it I'd probably keep the Sage.

I bought it brand new for £300. The Silvia costs more than this, and significantly more than when brand new with PID added.

At that kind of price I would buy a good second-hand Rocket or dual boiler machine.

That's just me though.


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## ajohn

I'm a lowly Sage Barista Express user but also bought a dual boiler machine more to play with than anything else. It's a Fracino Picino in some ways similar to the Silvia in that it uses small boilers. The brew boiler still takes 15mins to get the group head up to temperature and the portafilter even longer than that. That can be speeded up by flushing it before running a shot. Fracino have mounted the group head directly onto the brew boiler so can't see how any machine can be quicker than that. The steam boiler comes up in very quickly. This area is something I would want to know about before choosing a machine. The DTP should be active in about 1min from turn on. It should switch to steam in about 1/2 min or less.

The Silvia uses a single boiler - makes me wonder how they switch between steam and brew temperatures.

One thing that surprised me on the Picino was the difficulty of descaling. It seems to be a case of at least part disassembling the machine. Reading between the lines there are other machines about that may have this problem. As far as I am aware all Sage machines make this process pretty simple. The DTP is a thermoblock machine so will need descaling more often than a boiler machine especially as too much scale will probably stop it from functioning. I live in a very soft water area and have decided to descale the BE every 2 months. Probably over the top as the water is down to certain bottled water levels as far as scale is concerned.

The extraction on the Picino is entirely different to the BE. The BE has a lower pressure infusion stage and PID. The Piccino appears to use water heat instead of an infusion stage. It starts of hot and then cools. This results in an impressive initial gush of black stuff when a shot is run but over all a weaker cup with a different taste to the BE. As the brew boiler is small and insulated I suspect it may be hard to catch it when the temperature is well off the maximum set by the thermostat. I've not seen any temperature surfing effects but haven't used it that much. I bought it to play with - add better temperature control etc.







Can't mess with the BE as it's under warrantee.

I'm pretty new to espresso machines but went for the BE because I had a feeling that 2 grinders would be useful mainly to try different beans from time to time. Also for the hot water supply as I drink long blacks with a bit of milk. However I feel it has other advantages that are worth paying for - mainly programmable timed shots. Now I am used to using the BE I can get very consistent results that just need tiny twitches to the grind timer now and again based on the look of the puck. I've one beef with Sage - only 2 basket sizes, Nothing between the single and the double so one type of bean defeated me completely. There will be others. The only way I could use the bean was by really underfilling the double - result very muddy messy pucks. I'm not prepared to put up with that and this is one area Sage should fix as it spoils the experience.

One other "problem" comes with these Sage machines. The group head is largely plastic so no heat transfer to the portafilter and also I feel some internal parts. I noticed that 2 shots on the trot produced a different strength and taste on the 2nd. I get round that by running a double through an empty pressurised basket first. That's a better option than running it through the single wall that will be used but even that helps a lot. Small inconvenience compared with the other things the machines offer.







IMHO anyhow.

John

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## Mrboots2u

Im not saying buy a Sage DTP , i have not used one but I am saying don't by a new Silvia .

Over priced. Poor temp control , poor features ( auto off after 20 mins on the new ones. ) .

They market the Silvia as made from commercial parts etc, but in reality its made with a temp control management system from 1980 .

Temp surfing gets old quick , making espresso with a machine that has a potential temp swing of plus or minus 5 c is a pain.

A pain at best it's hugely time consuming at worst it just makes poor coffee and your trying to figure out if its your skills or the machine.

Above opinion is based on owning one, always take with a pinch of salt opinions on a Silvia from people who have read marketing blurb but never owned one.

Second hand, a silvia at around £200 then fitted with a PID makes a decent machine but then again you could do this with a gaggia classic for almost less money.

Have fun , save up would be my advice , make some decent coffee with a French press or filter method and while doing so and get to understand if you you wanna make something from coffee beyond a slightly better brew than your local nero.


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## Undecided

I really appreciate all of the replies. There seems to be a consensus that a DTP is likely to be more suitable than a Silvia (without PID). I don't think I want the possible hassle of secondhand with no warranty and it sounds like a new Silvia fitted with a PID is going to be rather expensive - I assume £650+ but I can't find anyone selling new ones. The next step up to a Rocket or similar is more than I would like to spend.

I wasn't aware of the difference in warm up times. My current Starbucks Barista takes around 4 minutes, which seems OK if I'm doing something else at the time, like preparing breakfast. 15 minutes does sound a hassle. Is 15 mins about right for a Silvia?

I take the point about longevity. If I went for a DTP, I would probably go with a 3 year warranty from Lakeland or similar, and while I can do basic repairs as I have with my current machine, it sounds like it won't survive as long as a Silvia with the lack of user replaceable parts. While it might be 3 years and a day(!), perhaps 6 years of one cappuccino a day is about what I could expect?

Many thanks for the detailed responses. It has really helped to clarify my thoughts and fill some of the (many) gaps in my knowledge.


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## Mrboots2u

TO get the group up to temp i would be looking at 20 mins plus for the Silvia ( hence the shut off feature you have to disable and hence kicker your warrnanty makes a farce of a machine )


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## radam87

Undecided said:


> I really appreciate all of the replies. There seems to be a consensus that a DTP is likely to be more suitable than a Silvia (without PID). I don't think I want the possible hassle of secondhand with no warranty and it sounds like a new Silvia fitted with a PID is going to be rather expensive - I assume £650+ but I can't find anyone selling new ones. The next step up to a Rocket or similar is more than I would like to spend.
> 
> I wasn't aware of the difference in warm up times. My current Starbucks Barista takes around 4 minutes, which seems OK if I'm doing something else at the time, like preparing breakfast. 15 minutes does sound a hassle. Is 15 mins about right for a Silvia?
> 
> I take the point about longevity. If I went for a DTP, I would probably go with a 3 year warranty from Lakeland or similar, and while I can do basic repairs as I have with my current machine, it sounds like it won't survive as long as a Silvia with the lack of user replaceable parts. While it might be 3 years and a day(!), perhaps 6 years of one cappuccino a day is about what I could expect?
> 
> Many thanks for the detailed responses. It has really helped to clarify my thoughts and fill some of the (many) gaps in my knowledge.


Warm up time is around 1 min for DTP. It's not a bad machine at all if you ask me and for my budget (buying brand new) it was practically the only option that ticked most of the essential boxes.


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## Undecided

radam87 said:


> Warm up time is around 1 min for DTP. It's not a bad machine at all if you ask me and for my budget (buying brand new) it was practically the only option that ticked most of the essential boxes.


1 minute warm up is really impressive. I'm going to have to avoid mentioning that to my other half - currently she assumes it's too much of a faff to make coffee for visitors using the espresso machine, so they are relegated to cafetiere, or instant if we really don't like them


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## Undecided

Incidentally, I notice that Debenhams claim to be selling the DTP rather cheaply http://www.debenhams.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prod_10701_10001_325004904297_-1

but I assume that this isn't a genuine price and is perpetually out of stock - perhaps an attempt to stop buyers buying elsewhere.


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## radam87

Undecided said:


> Incidentally, I notice that Debenhams claim to be selling the DTP rather cheaply http://www.debenhams.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/prod_10701_10001_325004904297_-1
> 
> but I assume that this isn't a genuine price and is perpetually out of stock - perhaps an attempt to stop buyers buying elsewhere.


Surely an error?


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## radam87

Undecided said:


> 1 minute warm up is really impressive. I'm going to have to avoid mentioning that to my other half - currently she assumes it's too much of a faff to make coffee for visitors using the espresso machine, so they are relegated to cafetiere, or instant if we really don't like them


It can be a faff to make multiple drinks as with a single boiler. For making a few cups a day, it works well.


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## Dylan

radam87 said:


> Surely an error?


They probably just stopped selling it and that was a clearance price.


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## Rakesh

Why isn't a PID'd Gaggia classic an option? Parts are more available than the sage and basket size is standard 58mm so you have a large choice of tampers, baskets, shower screens etc. Its a well known machine with plenty of info out there and plenty of people out there to help out if anything went wrong. It'd likely outlive the sage and price wise they are cheaper than a silvia.

I have owned a Gaggia Classic + PID and a Sage DTP and I prefer the Gaggia classic + PID.


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## Undecided

Rakesh said:


> Why isn't a PID'd Gaggia classic an option? Parts are more available than the sage and basket size is standard 58mm so you have a large choice of tampers, baskets, shower screens etc. Its a well known machine with plenty of info out there and plenty of people out there to help out if anything went wrong. It'd likely outlive the sage and price wise they are cheaper than a silvia.
> 
> I have owned a Gaggia Classic + PID and a Sage DTP and I prefer the Gaggia classic + PID.


I'm not sure why I haven't considered the Gaggia Classic. Is it possible to buy a new one with PID fitted and still have a warranty? If so how much would that cost? I'm not too keen on secondhand or doing the fitting myself, although I suppose I could if required.

Is the Gaggia like the Silvia in taking 20 minutes to warm up? While I wasn't aware of how quick the DTP was when I initially asked the question, that speed certainly sounds an appealing feature.

The last time I bought an espresso machine (Starbucks Barista) was in 2000, and I bought the Mazzer Mini in 2007 when I got tired of repairing a Briel grinder. Since then I haven't given coffee machinery any thought, so I may have missed the Gaggia Classic.


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## Rakesh

Undecided said:


> I'm not sure why I haven't considered the Gaggia Classic. Is it possible to buy a new one with PID fitted and still have a warranty? If so how much would that cost? I'm not too keen on secondhand or doing the fitting myself, although I suppose I could if required.
> 
> Is the Gaggia like the Silvia in taking 20 minutes to warm up? While I wasn't aware of how quick the DTP was when I initially asked the question, that speed certainly sounds an appealing feature.
> 
> The last time I bought an espresso machine (Starbucks Barista) was in 2000, and I bought the Mazzer Mini in 2007 when I got tired of repairing a Briel grinder. Since then I haven't given coffee machinery any thought, so I may have missed the Gaggia Classic.


The classic takes around 15-20 minutes to heat up properly. Not sure you could fit a PID and keep the warranty but the PID process is completely reversible so if you knew how you could always remove it before claiming the warranty.

The older models were better made than the new ones, you could always buy a second hand one with a PID already fitted but they aren't as common as non PID'd ones. A second hand classic and MrShades PID kit will set you back around £250, the MrShades kit is really easy to fit, I can just about change a lightbulb yet managed to get the PID fitted in about 2hrs.


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## radam87

Rakesh said:


> The classic takes around 15-20 minutes to heat up properly. Not sure you could fit a PID and keep the warranty but the PID process is completely reversible so if you knew how you could always remove it before claiming the warranty.
> 
> The older models were better made than the new ones, you could always buy a second hand one with a PID already fitted but they aren't as common as non PID'd ones. A second hand classic and MrShades PID kit will set you back around £250, the MrShades kit is really easy to fit, I can just about change a lightbulb yet managed to get the PID fitted in about 2hrs.


What specifically are the advantages of the Classic over the DTP? I'm wondering if it's worth me considering the change? Accessories availability isn't too huge a factor for me, but anything that helps me make better coffee is . Do you just use your DTP for a quick morning cup?


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## Rakesh

radam87 said:


> What specifically are the advantages of the Classic over the DTP? I'm wondering if it's worth me considering the change? Accessories availability isn't too huge a factor for me, but anything that helps me make better coffee is . Do you just use your DTP for a quick morning cup?


I don't have my DTP anymore as it broke and I claimed on the warranty for a refund.

I mainly chose the classic because it will last a long time provided its looked after properly and theres loads of info on them online should anything go wrong, other deciders that made me go for the classic is the availability of parts, ability to adjust the OPV and ability to set boiler and steam temp.


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## joey24dirt

I have also had both a classic and a DTP..... I preferred the DTP. So much less faff I think.

The DTP has some nice features that make it stand out such as the mentioned warm up time plus auto fill, fixed temp PID and a really easy to use steam arm.

Accessories wise... standard sage don't offer much but a few of us have found the Baskets from a la Spaziale will fit the sage with minor adjustments.

I have my DTP alongside an SJ and for me it doesn't get much better for a cheapish setup.

Just my 2 pence worth


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## joey24dirt

I timed myself this morning just to aid with your research. I wasn't rushing and had a demanding toddler asking for various things while trying to make this.

DTP timed from first switch on. Flush of hot water into cup. Grind. WDT and spinner. Tamp. Pull shot then steam milk


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## fatboyslim

I want a DTP now!


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## Rakesh

fatboyslim said:


> I want a DTP now!


Sell me your pav and get one lol ??


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## PPapa

fatboyslim said:


> I want a DTP now!


Methinks the DB won't be much worse in this category?


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## fatboyslim

PPapa said:


> Methinks the DB won't be much worse in this category?


Budget doesn't allow for a DB. I only need something for the occasional espresso and cappuccino.


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## jimbocz

You should also take into account that the DTP comes with a decent milk jug, decent baskets, a tamper and a method for approximating a blind basket. You'll need all of those things so budget accordingly in your comparison.


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## joey24dirt

fatboyslim said:


> Budget doesn't allow for a DB. I only need something for the occasional espresso and cappuccino.


There's a used DB on shpock for £200 but I can't get a reply from the seller. Might have been worth a punt


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## joey24dirt

PPapa said:


> Methinks the DB won't be much worse in this category?


DB you can set a timer can't you so it's nicely warmed up ready. It would be faster I bet due to the steam side of things


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## ajohn

I suspect that the fastest warm up time of a small boiler machine is the Picino - easily as far as the boiler is concerned - shame about the portafilter and the group head itself. It uses a 1200w heater in each boiler. The steam comes up in mins. From memory they are 400ml boilers. Like all boiler machines the group head and portafilter heat up time can be shortened via running shots through empty baskets. A pressurised basket will make that even faster. Gaggia produce one that could be used if it fits - even e61 types vary, eg I have one for the Picino. It's ok in an aftermarket portafilter but isn't in Fracino's own portafilter.







I'm not saying buy one just be aware of what boiler machines mean in practice. Also that there may be a catch descaling dual boiler machines - they need some method of draining the steam boiler to flush it afterwards. Some machines such as the Picino expect owners to regularly change an £18 filter but in practice I can't see how that could completely remove the need for descaling at some point.

Think I saw a comment that 1min Sage heat up times would be a pain for lots of drinks. Once the min is up that's it and as many as some one wants can be made. The only problem with that is it's better to preheat before making the first one if some one wants all of them to taste the same. I may be more sensitive to that because I don't drink milk based drinks.. The other catch with BE's and DTP's is temperature change times. In practice it's seconds but a number of them to go from brew to steam and back again. Also on a BE there can be a delay after running hot water if it's left set for hot water much longer than needed. I wouldn't fancy using the steam wand on a DTP for hot water. The BE has a separate spout and a flow limit timer.







I run the water while tamping the coffee. For milk drinks I steam it first and then run the shot probably tamping while it's changing temperature. The grinder is always available. Personally I don't care about the initial few ml of water that initially comes out of the steam wand. I steam semi skimmed anyway and tend to overheat the milk which isn't a good idea for latte art. It stiffens it, my wife likes hot drinks.







Not a problem now as I have found a bean that she will drink just as I do - long blacks. My son has switched too. Both would only drink milk based at Costa etc and my wife complains that they are too strong - just because they have a bitter edge to them. They are both drinking stuff that is just as strong now but smoother.

Sage do a half decent knock box as well. In our case it can fill up pretty quickly. It's worth reading the manual that comes with the machines. The razor tool and comments do help but scales are really needed in the end. There is also a fill indicator on the tamper. I find the impression of the hex socket screw that holds the shower screen in place in the puck a useful indication of fill level. If too clear chances are less coffee would be better. Beans vary so no signs of the hex or slight signs may be best. The DTP doesn't have a brew pressure gauge but the BE does. I find that useful but generally find that pressures a lot higher than suggested are best. It also offers a few brew temperatures. I currently find the hottest is best. My drinks come out at roughly 320ml with a bit of milk added so I run a double shot through a single basket - reason, the infusion timing is longer and that improves the taste, for me anyway.

Longevity. Before buying I spent some time on the web. The impression I gained was that all machines do fail in some way from time to time. I couldn't find any indication that Sage machines differ from others. My only concern was the lack of basket sizes. It's an obvious hole in their entire range. Pretty stupid of them really. Sage do have company that is appointed for repairs. What isn't clear is if they will supply ordinary people with all spares or what can be bought or fixed. I recollect seeing a problem with a BE grinder that by the sound of it needed the entire grinder unit replacing but got spacers instead. Also 2nd hand from some one that used an engineer that there were not any parts in them that couldn't be replaced. Things like solenoids might even be pretty standard parts used on many machines. Maybe I'll find out one day. As it stands we bought off John Lewis because there is a fair chance that if it fails within 2 years we will just get a new machine. I'd assume they handle problems just as Curries do.








We reckon that at our minimum usage the machine will cost us 25p a cup over 2 years. Only problem is that we will have drunk a lot more bean based coffee than we usually do. If it fails after 2 years and I find I can't fix it I'd buy another one. Boiler machines don't really fit in with our usage pattern. So it will need descaling more regularly - so what. People in hard water areas might benefit from using bottled water - not much different to boiler machines really. It's a fact that they are pretty sophisticated machines at very reasonable prices and can even be used with tallish mugs. They even offer one that assumes not all people just drink milk based. The basket size problem is really annoying and maybe internal spares are too. Their web site spares still doesn't match Breville's for some reason and the items shown don't relate to internal failures. They also charge so much for consumables that people are very likely to buy from elsewhere - descaler etc. I suspect we may need a new group head seal soon - was it on the spares page - no. The silicon rubber ones seem to soften with use so the angle the portafilter is at needs watching carefully as that also sets the fill level. No signs of leaking yet though.








You might say many people apart from the above negatives are mad buying any machine with a conventional boiler in it.

There is some sort of probably software flaw in a BE. A couple of times mine has thought it was a DTP and started squirting hot water out of the steam wand. Running a shot fixes it and I have no idea what causes it to do this.

John

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## Undecided

ajohn - really appreciate you taking the time to give such a thorough response. The heat up time in particular will make a fair difference to me.

And thanks to all of the other forum members for their detailed insight too. I know a great deal more than I did at the start of this thread. I am increasingly confident that the Sage DTP is the right machine for me and combined with my old Mazzer Mini, should be able to make an excellent cappuccino once I have got the hang of it.


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## Undecided

Just a further further point. I wonder how useful the pressure gauge is on the BE, and the ability to switch brew temperatures? There seems to be £150 ish between the BE and DTP. I don't really need the BE's grinder, although I could get some value from it by using it for the odd decaf. I wonder if it's worth me considering the BE. Amazon have them for £450, and Lakeland will price match apparently, so I can get decent customer service and a 3 year warranty.

I suppose I'm asking if the pressure gauge and temp settings are worth say half of the £150 price difference, since for me the grinder is probably worth the other half.


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## ATZ

radam87 said:


> I have the DTP.
> 
> Given the choice, I'd take the Silvia if it had the PID. Without it I'd probably keep the Sage.
> 
> I bought it brand new for £300. The Silvia costs more than this, and significantly more than when brand new with PID added.
> 
> At that kind of price I would buy a good second-hand Rocket or dual boiler machine.
> 
> That's just me though.


I'd agree with the above,

Although you try finding a second hand rocket... hen's teeth


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## radam87

Undecided said:


> Just a further further point. I wonder how useful the pressure gauge is on the BE, and the ability to switch brew temperatures? There seems to be £150 ish between the BE and DTP. I don't really need the BE's grinder, although I could get some value from it by using it for the odd decaf. I wonder if it's worth me considering the BE. Amazon have them for £450, and Lakeland will price match apparently, so I can get decent customer service and a 3 year warranty.
> 
> I suppose I'm asking if the pressure gauge and temp settings are worth say half of the £150 price difference, since for me the grinder is probably worth the other half.


I asked myself the same question. For me it made no sense to get the BE - especially as the grinder meant it wouldn't sit under my kitchen cupboards! It really does add a couple of inches in height so plan where you will put it and measure up before purchasing.

While it would be nice to have have the pressure gauge, most machines I considered didn't have one. With the right attention to detail you can pull a decent shot adjusting your variables/inputs to get a good extraction/yield within a suitable time.


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## MarkT

Undecided said:


> Just a further further point. I wonder how useful the pressure gauge is on the BE, and the ability to switch brew temperatures? There seems to be £150 ish between the BE and DTP. I don't really need the BE's grinder, although I could get some value from it by using it for the odd decaf. I wonder if it's worth me considering the BE. Amazon have them for £450, and Lakeland will price match apparently, so I can get decent customer service and a 3 year warranty.
> 
> I suppose I'm asking if the pressure gauge and temp settings are worth say half of the £150 price difference, since for me the grinder is probably worth the other half.


Before I say anything, I'm not an expert. Just a coffee lover and just sharing my experience. 

I've been using BE for 23 months now and it's a great starter machine for me. I find it easy to use and it's automatic.

My settings are grind setting of 4 medium or 5 for light roast and 19 g of beans in the hopper single dosing each time as it does have a little wastage when grinding. Maybe 1 g or even less.

I use Waitrose and volvic water 50/50 mix.

All my beans are kept in the freezer in original bags with air vents sealed or in breast milk bags which has double seals.

I do try to weigh most of the time to 45 g output but sometime when I am short in time it gets to about 54. Lol.

I have not measured the temperature of espresso itself however the coffee tastes as it should be.

It's the best purchase I made. I am now saving up for a dual boiler. Lol

The steam wand is not as good as Dual boiler however the milk is smooth, rich and creamy everytime I steam it. 65' worth digital thermometer. I just need to practice latte art. I can make onions and tulip ish. lol I use Tesco's full fat milk.

So for me it's a great automatic machine and I don't need to adjust it all the time. It's simple and straight forward.

Hope it helps.

Mark


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## ATZ

Just as a side note Lakeland guarantee is only 2 years now IIRC


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## Undecided

ATZ said:


> Just as a side note Lakeland guarantee is only 2 years now IIRC


It still seems to say 3 years on the site http://www.lakeland.co.uk/info/LakelandGuarantee

At some point they removed the lifetime satisfaction element, and I don't blame them - it might be OK for a saucepan, but an expensive thing to offer on an electrical appliance


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## fatboyslim

Undecided said:


> It still seems to say 3 years on the site http://www.lakeland.co.uk/info/LakelandGuarantee
> 
> At some point they removed the lifetime satisfaction element, and I don't blame them - it might be OK for a saucepan, but an expensive thing to offer on an electrical appliance


3 years for an extra £12 over John Lewis's 2 years isn't bad. I'm tempted...


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## Undecided

fatboyslim said:


> 3 years for an extra £12 over John Lewis's 2 years isn't bad. I'm tempted...


And Lakeland will price match even online apparently, so hopefully £295 if they'll match Amazon. Similarly the BE is £449 at Amazon (and £445 at Go Electrical) so I imagine they would match those too.


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## fatboyslim

Undecided said:


> And Lakeland will price match even online apparently, so hopefully £295 if they'll match Amazon. Similarly the BE is £449 at Amazon (and £445 at Go Electrical) so I imagine they would match those too.


On the phone with them now. They did indeed price match Amazon









Ordering it now!


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## Undecided

fatboyslim said:


> On the phone with them now. They did indeed price match Amazon
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Ordering it now!


Great. I may well do the same, once I have made my mind up between the DTP and BE!


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## fatboyslim

Undecided said:


> Great. I may well do the same, once I have made my mind up between the DTP and BE!


Ask for Elise, she was super helpful!


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## ajohn

The pressure gauge on the BE is useful. For one it can indicate that the output from the grinder has changed but the look of the top of the puck is more precise other than inconsistent tamping. It also give a good indication of the chances of being able to grind finer. It saves me stalling the machine now having done that a couple of times.

I'm not sure if the DTP has a 3 way valve - there may be a thread about adding one perhaps @joey24dirt can comment. Both my machines have it and I understand it helps get a nice dry puck that comes out cleanly - or more or less so.







The basket fill range to get that isn't great though - touch too little and the puck will probably stick to the shower screen. Too much usually is ok but I find it can make the coffee weaker as no room for the grounds to expand. Makes the selection of baskets available a bit more stupid.

I don't use the double much but it's behaviour is nothing like the single. Nearly out of a batch of beans so rather than a single I filled the double, same grind, same tamp and no where near as much pressure as the single gives. The infusion stage wasn't very noticeable. I ran a second double shot through it - more honey came out so looks like it could be ground even finer. Bit too strong though.

I have 2 Sage grinders - one in the BE and the other a SGP. The beans I use take some time to settle down in the BE grinder and need a lot of timer knob twitches early on so I don't clean it between batches. Having the 2nd one means I can leave the BE alone if I want to try a different bean. Monsooned Malabar may be the only bean that behaves like this but I'd guess any oily bean would.








The Picino came off some one that didn't have the time available to let it warm up. Given what he did for a living I'm inclined to believe him so it only saw use on Sundays and was still under warrantee. I hope to add better temperature control, maybe an infusion stage and definitely a facility to switch the steam boiler off. Bit of a project really that does have plenty of basket sizes available. We have a hot water dispenser so can manage without that on the machine. To be honest though the results will probably mean still sticking with a BE. I'll need to make it easy to descale as well.

John

-


----------



## joey24dirt

ajohn said:


> I'm not sure if the DTP has a 3 way valve - there may be a thread about adding one perhaps @joey24dirt can comment.
> 
> -


Yes that's right I did fit one. Pretty handy thing to have especially when you choke a machine up.

The DTP doesn't have one as standard but even without it, the pucks can come out reasonably dry. Although that's not necessarily an indication the shot is perfect.


----------



## ATZ

As above the lack of the 3 way on the DTP hasn't stopped me getting dry pucks


----------



## ATZ

@Undecided I may be selling my DTP if you're interested? It was new earlier this year and has a fair amount of sage guarantee remaining. Would also come with one of Joey's bespoke naked portafilters.


----------



## joey24dirt

ATZ said:


> @Undecided I may be selling my DTP if you're interested? It was new earlier this year and has a fair amount of sage guarantee remaining. Would also come with one of Joey's bespoke naked portafilters.


What are you going for?


----------



## ATZ

joey24dirt said:


> What are you going for?


The shinyness of E61 is calling Joe. Either a Bezzera Unica or Rocket Appartmento I think.

Trying to weigh up SBDU vs HX as I drink mostly espresso.


----------



## joey24dirt

ATZ said:


> The shinyness of E61 is calling Joe. Either a Bezzera Unica or Rocket Appartmento I think.
> 
> Trying to weigh up SBDU vs HX as I drink mostly espresso.


Aww wow I'm jealous. Good luck with the hunt


----------



## fatboyslim

ATZ said:


> @Undecided I may be selling my DTP if you're interested? It was new earlier this year and has a fair amount of sage guarantee remaining. Would also come with one of Joey's bespoke naked portafilters.


Why would you post this only a few hours after I bought one new! Damn it....should have been slightly more patient.


----------



## ATZ

fatboyslim said:


> Why would you post this only a few hours after I bought one new! Damn it....should have been slightly more patient.


 @fatboyslim sorry man, literally only just been thinking about this today.


----------



## Undecided

ATZ said:


> @Undecided I may be selling my DTP if you're interested? It was new earlier this year and has a fair amount of sage guarantee remaining. Would also come with one of Joey's bespoke naked portafilters.


Hi @ATZ true to my username I haven't decided between a BE and DTP, but I may be interested if the warranty is transferable. Do you know if it is? Could you let me know how much you are after, approx location, and how many months old it is please?


----------



## ATZ

Undecided said:


> Hi @ATZ true to my username I haven't decided between a BE and DTP, but I may be interested if the warranty is transferable. Do you know if it is? Could you let me know how much you are after, approx location, and how many months old it is please?


Hey @Undecided for full disclosure the machine was bought in May and I bought it off another forum member in July. It had only been used for a few weeks prior to me buying it mind and I registered the warranty, so it's all of 5 months old, albeit with two previous owners if you decide to buy it.

It's still in excellent condition, making on average two cups per day for me and has been regularly cleaned, all the accessories still with it. As I said I added one of Joe's naked PF (around £50) at my own expense, so I'd be looking for £200 delivered. Happy to put up a separate thread in the valuations or for sale section if you're interested?


----------



## fatboyslim

ATZ said:


> Hey [MENTION=25911] so I'd be looking for £200 delivered.


That price makes me feel sick....at least I'll have peace of mind it's a brand new machine.

Best of luck/hope it all goes well with sale and purchase you two.


----------



## ATZ

fatboyslim said:


> That price makes me feel sick....at least I'll have peace of mind it's a brand new machine.
> 
> Best of luck/hope it all goes well with sale and purchase you two.


It's a brilliant little machine. If I wasn't a sucker for chrome I'd keep it. Paired with a decent grinder it makes excellent coffee.


----------



## Undecided

ATZ said:


> Hey @Undecided for full disclosure the machine was bought in May and I bought it off another forum member in July. It had only been used for a few weeks prior to me buying it mind and I registered the warranty, so it's all of 5 months old, albeit with two previous owners if you decide to buy it.
> 
> It's still in excellent condition, making on average two cups per day for me and has been regularly cleaned, all the accessories still with it. As I said I added one of Joe's naked PF (around £50) at my own expense, so I'd be looking for £200 delivered. Happy to put up a separate thread in the valuations or for sale section if you're interested?


Thanks for the info. I really need to work out if I should go for a DTP or BE. I'm hoping to see them side by side in a shop in the next couple of days at Lakeland. I completely understand if you're keen to sell and want to advertise now though.

Do you know whether the warranty can be transferred? I'm just wondering how it would work if it needed to go back?


----------



## joey24dirt

Undecided said:


> Thanks for the info. I really need to work out if I should go for a DTP or BE. I'm hoping to see them side by side in a shop in the next couple of days at Lakeland. I completely understand if you're keen to sell and want to advertise now though.
> 
> Do you know whether the warranty can be transferred? I'm just wondering how it would work if it needed to go back?


Do you already have a grinder?


----------



## Undecided

joey24dirt said:


> Do you already have a grinder?


Yes I have a Mazzer Mini, which I use with my dying Starbucks Barista (Saeco) machine. The reason I was considering a BE was the added features above the DTP - pressure gauge, temp adjustment, water spout, 3 way solenoid, larger drip tray. The inbuilt grinder is fairly secondary to me - I would use it for the odd decaf, or if the Mazzer has problems


----------



## joey24dirt

Undecided said:


> Yes I have a Mazzer Mini, which I use with my dying Starbucks Barista (Saeco) machine. The reason I was considering a BE was the added features above the DTP - pressure gauge, temp adjustment, water spout, 3 way solenoid, larger drip tray. The inbuilt grinder is fairly secondary to me - I would use it for the odd decaf, or if the Mazzer has problems


Ah yes that's right, you have a mazzer. I suppose it's just now deciding if you want extra features or not. It would be nice having them and the additional back up grinder.

Also when you decide.... are you going to change your username? ?


----------



## jimbocz

Undecided said:


> Yes I have a Mazzer Mini, which I use with my dying Starbucks Barista (Saeco) machine. The reason I was considering a BE was the added features above the DTP - pressure gauge, temp adjustment, water spout, 3 way solenoid, larger drip tray. The inbuilt grinder is fairly secondary to me - I would use it for the odd decaf, or if the Mazzer has problems


I'm not entirely certain, but I think Breville sells a machine in Germany that has all those features but no grinder. Might be worth checking amazon.de. I don't think it's a problem to get it delivered to the UK.

Might be another option for you.


----------



## ATZ

jimbocz said:


> I'm not entirely certain, but I think Breville sells a machine in Germany that has all those features but no grinder. Might be worth checking amazon.de. I don't think it's a problem to get it delivered to the UK.
> 
> Might be another option for you.


It's the Breville Infuser. They sell it in the US too but I was warned off it as it would operate on a different voltage to UK.


----------



## ajohn

ATZ said:


> The shinyness of E61 is calling Joe. Either a Bezzera Unica or Rocket Appartmento I think.
> 
> Trying to weigh up SBDU vs HX as I drink mostly espresso.


I wondered how steam and brew were managed on a single boiler machine






That would drive me nuts if my wife or some one else wanted a milk based drink. There are 2 parts to that video. The other mentions that the coffee in the cup finishes up at 75C. Before buying the Piccino I looked at loads of reviews. Several machines have big shiny group heads often heated by thermo syphon - water circuit in it connected to the boiler water, just convection. My impression was that 35min for the lot to heat up may be an understatement. There was too much mention of flushing the group head.








Are you sure you don't want a Sage dual boiler. I think that a look at the manual would show that there is no problems descaling the steam boiler. Filter basket sizes though pass.








I can see the attraction though. The Piccino lets out a cute puff of steam from the 3 way when it's heated up. I do rather like that.








I'll add that if I was spending that much I'd do a lot of research on these

https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/machines/la-spaziale.html

Mind just like the Piccino the makers may assume no one uses tall mugs. A bottomless may be essential.

John

-


----------



## ATZ

ajohn said:


> I wondered how steam and brew were managed on a single boiler machine


 @ajohn that video is actually not the best for showing the performance of the unica as they take their time explaining everything. There are better examples on youtube but the boiler takes a very short time to reach steam temp and then can be purged back to shot temp quickly too. It essentially the same workflow as I have with the DTP:

1. Machine on, warm PF

2. Grind and tamp coffee

3. Wait for DTP to come up to steam temp, steam milk, set aside

4. Wait for machine to purge steam, pull shot.

As I drink largely espressos and americanos I'll probably use it for one milk drink per day, max. Maybe more when guests are around.

The unica operates a normal thermosyphon as do all E61, the easy way around the heating of the group head is to turn the machine on with plenty of time, which is where timer or wifi plugs come in. Set the machine to come on before you need it then it's warm and stable by the time you do.

Sage dual boiler doesn't appeal as for that money I want stainless steel and E61 preferably. I'm not a huge fan of Le Spaz aesthetics so I've kind of ruled them out, shallow sure, but I like my machine to be a talking point in the kitchen as well as make good coffee so looks are a consideration.


----------



## fatboyslim

And as if my magic!!! Perhaps the quickest spontaneous setup change in the history of espresso?

Top marks to Lakeland for dispatching so quickly!


----------



## PPapa

Looks neat. I think you aren't the first to pair a DTP with an EK tho?


----------



## ajohn

PPapa said:


> Looks neat. I think you aren't the first to pair a DTP with an EK tho?


Good grief the price differential between the 2 would worry me - however it does say something about the espresso machine range. One main reason for my BE was how water as I did drink purely Americano. I switched to long blacks so that I can tamp while the hot water runs - then found I like the extra crema too.

The video I posted gave me an idea for setting up a Sage BE grinder. So many grams per second. Now why didn't I think of that. It'll vary according to beans and grind but say I run too little through and note the time it took and then weigh. I can then get close by setting the grinder to run for the calculated time with it empty. The SGP is a lot easier - manually grind onto scales. It records the time so that can then be programmed into it.

I do have a behemoth grinder with big flat burrs to try. Bought very cheaply to see if it can produce better coffee. It's in good nick, well internally. Unlikely to use it until after Xmas. If it does then maybe I'll look in that direction.







I never take anything as gospel. Comes from what I did for a living.

John

-


----------



## fatboyslim

Fast warm up time is a revelation!


----------



## Mrboots2u

fatboyslim said:


> Fast warm up time is a revelation!


Pulled a shot yet?


----------



## Undecided

fatboyslim said:


> Fast warm up time is a revelation!


That's quite a big deal to me too, which is one reason the DTP and BE appeal. I really wasn't aware of the differences until I came to this forum. My current Starbucks Barista takes about 4 minutes to warm up and having not thought about espresso machines since I bought it in 2000, I assumed that was pretty typical.

Sage don't seem to make much of this feature, although I suppose the word 'Express' in the Barista Express, is there for that purpose.


----------



## ajohn

The fast heat up is typical of thermoblock machines. Boiler machines vary according to the capacity of the boiler, wattage and design. Taking the Piccino 2 400ml boilers with 1200w in each. It doesn't indicate that the brew boiler is turned on only the steam boiler. It's up to temperature in a couple of mins. As the brew boiler is insulated that's probably quicker but a cold group head is no good. I'd say that gets up in about 15mins but then comes the portafilter. That probably pushes it up to 20 odd but can be speeded up by flushing it - running a brew without any coffee. That can also speed up the group head as well. Flushing is still a good idea - commercial parts so some hefty bits of brass in the grouphead. It also is on the Sage machines otherwise you may find that 2 drinks made one after another are very likely to have a different taste. I use one of the double wall baskets for that as it really does heat the lot up. It also helps keep the shower screen clean which ever one is used.

John

-


----------



## fatboyslim

Mrboots2u said:


> Pulled a shot yet?


Nah, I've just been letting it warm up then turning it off. Made a few shots but having issues getting 14g to fit in the PF, its too damn fluffy!

3rd shot went into a totally delicious cappuccino. It's so easy to texture small amounts of milk on this machine!

Very impressed so far.


----------



## Undecided

ATZ said:


> @Undecided I may be selling my DTP if you're interested? It was new earlier this year and has a fair amount of sage guarantee remaining. Would also come with one of Joey's bespoke naked portafilters.


Hi @ATZ

I visited Lakeland today to take a look at the DTP and BE and make a decision. I settled on the BE and bought it there, using a price match.

I do appreciate the offer though.

Now how how do I change my username...


----------



## ashcroc

ATZ said:


> It's the Breville Infuser. They sell it in the US too but I was warned off it as it would operate on a different voltage to UK.


While the plugs will be different, it'll be the same voltage as the UK if coming from Germany.


----------



## ATZ

Undecided said:


> Hi @ATZ
> 
> I visited Lakeland today to take a look at the DTP and BE and make a decision. I settled on the BE and bought it there, using a price match.
> 
> I do appreciate the offer though.
> 
> Now how how do I change my username...


Have fun with it!


----------



## Souriat

I currently have a DeLonghi Scultura (freebie modified with a non-pressurized basket) paired with a Lido E, based on experiences with the DTP (which looks promising in this thread) would this be a worthwhile change for the quality of Espresso i'm likely to see? I expect the temp stability and pressure designed for such a basket would help?

Plan to upgrade the grinder too soon as having one for both brewed and espresso is proving annoying so would end up pairing this with either an Atom or used grinder in a similar price bracket, which i imagine would also add a benefit if i was to go down this route.

@ATZ if you do decide to sell as mentioned previously i may well be interested!


----------



## urbanbumpkin

fatboyslim said:


> Fast warm up time is a revelation!


It's unnervingly quick, I was used to a 40 min warm up to 3mins (and that's making sure). I've recommended this to a mate who's pairing it with a Mignon


----------



## ATZ

Souriat said:


> I currently have a DeLonghi Scultura (freebie modified with a non-pressurized basket) paired with a Lido E, based on experiences with the DTP (which looks promising in this thread) would this be a worthwhile change for the quality of Espresso i'm likely to see? I expect the temp stability and pressure designed for such a basket would help?
> 
> Plan to upgrade the grinder too soon as having one for both brewed and espresso is proving annoying so would end up pairing this with either an Atom or used grinder in a similar price bracket, which i imagine would also add a benefit if i was to go down this route.
> 
> @ATZ if you do decide to sell as mentioned previously i may well be interested!


I have my DTP paired with a super jolly and it makes excellent coffee. Better than what I can get from 90% of the highstreet for sure.


----------



## joey24dirt

I think it's great that the sage machines are starting to build a good reputation. I think people have been a bit nervous about them.

I gather sage in the uk are starting to realise they need to be available for parts, so hopefully they will keep building on what is available.


----------



## Souriat

joey24dirt said:


> I think it's great that the sage machines are starting to build a good reputation. I think people have been a bit nervous about them.
> 
> I gather sage in the uk are starting to realise they need to be available for parts, so hopefully they will keep building on what is available.


The few negatives I am seeing for lower volume usage do definitely seem to relate to the worry of reliability and parts rather than any talk of brew quality so definitely looking like a good contender for me


----------



## fatboyslim

Souriat said:


> The few negatives I am seeing for lower volume usage do definitely seem to relate to the worry of reliability and parts rather than any talk of brew quality so definitely looking like a good contender for me


That's why I bought mine new from Lakeland with a 3 year warranty! Lakeland outright replace the item immediately then contact Sage once the customer is happy


----------



## Souriat

fatboyslim said:


> That's why I bought mine new from Lakeland with a 3 year warranty! Lakeland outright replace the item immediately then contact Sage once the customer is happy


Perfect! The itch to hunt down my wallet is definitely increasing haha


----------



## joey24dirt

Souriat said:


> Perfect! The itch to hunt down my wallet is definitely increasing haha


In the words of senator Palpatine ..... "Do it!"


----------



## Souriat

joey24dirt said:


> In the words of senator Palpatine ..... "Do it!"


If the emperor commands how can I not..

Think that's my mind about made up then, now just to avoid scratching that grinder itch haha


----------



## fatboyslim

Souriat said:


> If the emperor commands how can I not..
> 
> Think that's my mind about made up then, now just to avoid scratching that grinder itch haha


Find the cheapest one online and get Lakeland to price match. I got them to price match Amazon at £295 but the price has since gone up on Amazon.


----------



## Undecided

fatboyslim said:


> Find the cheapest one online and get Lakeland to price match. I got them to price match Amazon at £295 but the price has since gone up on Amazon.


Even though Amazon have raised the price it's still £299 here http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES810BSS


----------



## joey24dirt

Undecided said:


> Even though Amazon have raised the price it's still £299 here http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES810BSS


How much was the BE if you don't mind me asking? I'm quite interested in getting one for my work van  going to look for used to begin with but it's always handy knowing new prices too


----------



## Undecided

joey24dirt said:


> How much was the BE if you don't mind me asking? I'm quite interested in getting one for my work van  going to look for used to begin with but it's always handy knowing new prices too


It was supposed to be £439 matching Peter Tyson Appliances, although I bought another item at the same time and on the receipt it appears they actually charged £430 for the BE. Peter Tyson have since raised the price but it seems to be available pretty close to that elsewhere

£445 currently here, but I would only use this as a price match. I wouldn't buy from them-

https://www.iwantoneofthose.com/kit...=thgppc&switchcurrency=GBP&shippingcountry=GB

https://www.iwantoneofthose.com/kitchen-appliances/sage-by-heston-blumenthal-bes870uk-barista-express-bean-to-cup-coffee-machine-stainless-steel/11023640.html?utm_source=kelkoo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=kelkoo&affil=thgppc&switchcurrency=GBP&shippingcountry=GB


----------



## joey24dirt

Undecided said:


> It was supposed to be £439 matching Peter Tyson Appliances, although I bought another item at the same time and on the receipt it appears they actually charged £430 for the BE. Peter Tyson have since raised the price but it seems to be available pretty close to that elsewhere
> 
> £445 currently here, but I would only use this as a price match. I wouldn't buy from them-
> 
> https://www.iwantoneofthose.com/kit...=thgppc&switchcurrency=GBP&shippingcountry=GB
> 
> https://www.iwantoneofthose.com/kitchen-appliances/sage-by-heston-blumenthal-bes870uk-barista-express-bean-to-cup-coffee-machine-stainless-steel/11023640.html?utm_source=kelkoo&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=kelkoo&affil=thgppc&switchcurrency=GBP&shippingcountry=GB


It's crazy because I've seen 2nd hand machines for sale and they want £400-£450 for them!

Definitely a good price new though


----------



## Souriat

Thanks all for your help, temptation won and I've pulled the trigger, got it matched to £298.99, which for a new machine with the warranty I'm pretty happy with


----------



## radam87

Undecided said:


> Even though Amazon have raised the price it's still £299 here http://www.ecookshop.co.uk/ecookshop/product.asp?pid=BES810BSS


I bought through eccokshop.co.uk - Lakeland would not match that price.

Call their hotline to confirm this.


----------



## Undecided

radam87 said:


> I bought through eccokshop.co.uk - Lakeland would not match that price.
> 
> Call their hotline to confirm this.


That's interesting. It sounds like their price matching isn't entirely consistent, as they will match other online only competitors such as Amazon. In my case they matched an online price from Peter Tyson Appliances for a Barista Express.


----------



## fatboyslim

Just to report back, I'm having so much fun using the Sage. Only think to note is that it seems to like a more gentle tamp.

Pulled back to back shots then steamed milk and made a totally delicious cappuccino. Not fuss, no panics.

A great little machine. Not even bothered about longevity with my 3 year warranty









Having owned a Classic, Cherub, and a La Pavoni this might just be my favourite of the lot.


----------



## PPapa

Glad you're happy!

With Joey around and his skills to modify pfs, baskets and tampers/distribution tools, different group head doesn't sound so much of a problem either.


----------



## joey24dirt

fatboyslim said:


> Just to report back, I'm having so much fun using the Sage. Only think to note is that it seems to like a more gentle tamp.
> 
> Pulled back to back shots then steamed milk and made a totally delicious cappuccino. Not fuss, no panics.
> 
> A great little machine. Not even bothered about longevity with my 3 year warranty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having owned a Classic, Cherub, and a La Pavoni this might just be my favourite of the lot.


That's great to hear, especially after using various machines


----------



## Teejay

This thread makes interesting reading and has me more inclined to get the BE from Lakeland. Looks like all have increased the prices ready for the Xmas, none of the matches mentioned are what there were. Might wait until after in the sales and see what I can get.

..message ends..


----------



## fatboyslim

jeni606 said:


> Get Paper Writing Service within the Affordable Rates.


Thank you for your valuable contribution to this thread


----------



## ajohn

fatboyslim said:


> Just to report back, I'm having so much fun using the Sage. Only think to note is that it seems to like a more gentle tamp.
> 
> Pulled back to back shots then steamed milk and made a totally delicious cappuccino. Not fuss, no panics.
> 
> A great little machine. Not even bothered about longevity with my 3 year warranty
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having owned a Classic, Cherub, and a La Pavoni this might just be my favourite of the lot.


I tried to point some one very new at the machines but failed. There are enough problems learning to use them let alone the machine type variations. Sage seems to be a safe bet in many ways.








I've also gone ethnic. A used Piccino to play with. Consistent results take a lot more thought and it take a lot longer to heat it all up.

John

-


----------



## Undecided

Teejay said:


> This thread makes interesting reading and has me more inclined to get the BE from Lakeland. Looks like all have increased the prices ready for the Xmas, none of the matches mentioned are what there were. Might wait until after in the sales and see what I can get.
> 
> ..message ends..


I have just had an alert to say that the BE has dropped to £449.10 at Amazon by the way.


----------



## Undecided

Just spotted the Sage DTP in the John Lewis sale at £249 which sounds pretty good to me

https://www.johnlewis.com/sage-by-heston-blumenthal-the-duo-temp-pro-espresso-coffee-machine/p1749201


----------



## ashcroc

Undecided said:


> Just spotted the Sage DTP in the John Lewis sale at £249 which sounds pretty good to me
> 
> https://www.johnlewis.com/sage-by-heston-blumenthal-the-duo-temp-pro-espresso-coffee-machine/p1749201


It £249.95 in Lakeland (though they'll pricematch) with an extra year of warranty.


----------



## Undecided

ashcroc said:


> It £249.95 in Lakeland (though they'll pricematch) with an extra year of warranty.


Even better.


----------



## kdr152

No stock on DTP - I tried a fair few Lakeland stores. They cannot confirm if the price will increase when stock arrives - shipping date 3rd January. I put one on back order and paid for it to make sure any increase was avoided! Currys/ PC World claim to price match on their T&Cs online but won't match the satisfaction guarantee from Lakeland. Guarantee is a bit wishy-washy - need to read the small print. I was told - if you are not satisfied in 3 years, they'd replace; but 3 years worth of use is acceptance!


----------



## Gatty

That price and the lakeland guarantee really has me tempted as well, think I may take the plunge and put an order in too.


----------



## fatboyslim

Gatty said:


> That price and the lakeland guarantee really has me tempted as well, think I may take the plunge and put an order in too.


You won't regret it


----------



## kdr152

Still to understand the Lakeland guarantee. If you are considering ask when in store. They are shipping from 3rd January and the guarantee is a satisfaction guarantee so may not cover all as would a manufacturers etc. Coupled with the manufacturers guarantee it made me press the button. Will be interested to read the small print. You are in theory satisfied if you open the box and use the unit IMHO. The Manager in the store I ordered from said - if you aren't satisfied in 3 years, Lakeland would discuss! That would be a good one to test! I am involved with certain e-commerce sites and know what I would say!









Plus - Price may go up for inbound stock!


----------



## bear102

Hello all..

Long time viewer of the forum but the first time I've really needed any advice.

I have the offer of a Sage DTP which is around 6 months old and in the pictures it looks in good condition and the price is £150, I currently have a crappy Delonghi machine that is around 5-6 years old and its started to deliver really poor coffee so I'm destined to upgrade.

Obviously the Sage is around £290 new on Amazon so would you suggest its worth me picking up the 6 month old machine for £150?


----------



## joey24dirt

bear102 said:


> Hello all..
> 
> Long time viewer of the forum but the first time I've really needed any advice.
> 
> I have the offer of a Sage DTP which is around 6 months old and in the pictures it looks in good condition and the price is £150, I currently have a crappy Delonghi machine that is around 5-6 years old and its started to deliver really poor coffee so I'm destined to upgrade.
> 
> Obviously the Sage is around £290 new on Amazon so would you suggest its worth me picking up the 6 month old machine for £150?


If it comes with all its original accessories yeah I'd probably buy that. Is it a private sale or from a company that can offer a little bit of warranty?


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## Dylan

At 6 months old its probably still in good nick. If they are in a hard water area (like London) it could still have a bit of internal scale if they use it with tap water and it would be worth looking up how to do a proper descaling routine on it before putting it to use.


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## bear102

joey24dirt said:


> If it comes with all its original accessories yeah I'd probably buy that. Is it a private sale or from a company that can offer a little bit of warranty?


Replying to both..

Private sale, I've asked about the filter baskets etc but they seem to have looked after it and only getting rid because they have upgraded to the machine with internal grinder. I'm going to take the plunge I think.


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## joey24dirt

Yeah I think you'll be ok.


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## bear102

Just picked it up, in pristine condition and they gave me a few cleaning tablets and also the order ref to buy more of the same so I think they've looked after it. Looking forward to getting going tomorrow morning with some freshly delivered Extract coffee!


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## adam85

Morning Chaps. I've been reading the forum for a few days - having recently purchased a DTP myself at Christmas. Have been primarily watching YouTube videos to help me with my understanding of how to make good coffee (long time drinker, first time espresso maker).... but would like to delve my understanding more via this forum.

im going to have a further search of the forum to see any other discussions, which will point me in the right direction, but having read from the posters on here, have any of you had issues with making Americanos? The hot water from the machine to 'top up' the freshly made espresso seems to be very low in temperature.

Anyway, my first post - so sorry to take things away from the original discussion -- I shall try find myself more details of the issue, and any daily Sage tips I should know to make the most of this machine / interest in home coffee making! Thanks


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## ashcroc

adam85 said:


> Morning Chaps. I've been reading the forum for a few days - having recently purchased a DTP myself at Christmas. Have been primarily watching YouTube videos to help me with my understanding of how to make good coffee (long time drinker, first time espresso maker).... but would like to delve my understanding more via this forum.
> 
> im going to have a further search of the forum to see any other discussions, which will point me in the right direction, but having read from the posters on here, have any of you had issues with making Americanos? The hot water from the machine to 'top up' the freshly made espresso seems to be very low in temperature.
> 
> Anyway, my first post - so sorry to take things away from the original discussion -- I shall try find myself more details of the issue, and any daily Sage tips I should know to make the most of this machine / interest in home coffee making! Thanks


Welcome,

I'm sure simeone with experience of the dtp will pop up but generally with tanked machines people just use a kettle to top up americanos as they're easier to refill.


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## jimbocz

I often use the water from the steam wand to top up an Americano and find the temperature fine for me. It's certainly hotter than the espresso.

Are you warming up your group head and portafilter by running hot water through them first? I believe that's what the instructions say to do.


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## adam85

Thank you. Yes I'm having a set of water pouring through the filter to start, then turn across to have a hot steam output also - as I read that this may help also. Hopefully things will heat up a little more, as I don't want to regret not purchasing the larger model which pours hot water separately. Thank you for the reply.


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## joey24dirt

In the past I've just ran water through the group head straight into my espresso. Obviously need to wipe the screen after pulling the shot


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## adam85

joey24dirt said:


> In the past I've just ran water through the group head straight into my espresso. Obviously need to wipe the screen after pulling the shot


Ahh. That's maybe a good idea - albeit I read the espresso is made with cooler water? Maybe I should have cappuccino's instead! Ha. Thanks for the ideas.


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