# Beginner Upgraditus help



## JOeG (Feb 21, 2020)

I want to upgrade from my current setup - a dualit espressivo and cuisinart grinder, to something a little more capable.

I am tempted to get a la pavoni / gaggia factory as it is what I first learnt to make espresso on and could probably get one for around £300, and spend another £200 on a decent 2nd hand grinder.

However I am interested in some of the newer HX machines too. I hear good things about the lelit mara. I am just not sure the quality would be that much better.

I live alone and drink one espresso every morning before work so it's not like I need a work horse. It would be nice to be able to make the occasional milky drink though.


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## JOeG (Feb 21, 2020)

Should I upgrade the cuisinart grinder first or the espressivo first?

I feel like a new machine will see the more dramatic results


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JOeG said:


> I want to upgrade from my current setup - a dualit espressivo and cuisinart grinder, to something a little more capable.
> 
> However I am interested in some of the newer HX machines too. I hear good things about the lelit mara. I am just not sure the quality would be that much better.
> 
> I live alone and drink one espresso every morning before work so it's not like I need a work horse. It would be nice to be able to make the occasional milky drink though.


 The sad fact of life is that a good machine + a good grinder = a quality that really is that much better. Old Rumsfeld seemed to know what he was talking about, or perhaps he didn't. I think you might be in the unknown, unknowns.


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Upgrade the grinder first. You won't see much improvement on the Espressivo's output, but when you do upgrade to a good machine, you'll TRULY appreciate having a good grinder. A good machine with a poor grinder will make terrible coffee. With my big grinder needing parts I can't afford yet, it just doesn't grind well enough to make a drinkable cup on my Gaggia, but it's fine with the Delonghi. Pressurised filter baskets cover many sins, like worn out burrs and poor adjustment.

With a total £500 budget, I'd grab a used and upgraded Classic from a forum member and use the rest for a new Mignon.


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## JOeG (Feb 21, 2020)

I have bagged the niche zero.

I am now thinking the new mara x + paddle flow mod is looking like the one. Trying to talk myself down from a bianca.


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## MartinB (May 8, 2011)

Shameless plug but I have a pavoni up for sale should you be wanting to scratch that itch!


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## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

You won't go far wrong with a Pavoni, you can pick up a good one for reasonable money and they are great for learning the ropes of good coffee as they almost force you to ensure you have all the basics sorted. One word of warning though, it's a slippery slope......


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JOeG said:


> I have bagged the niche zero.
> 
> I am now thinking the new mara x + paddle flow mod is looking like the one. Trying to talk myself down from a bianca.


 If you want that Bianca, you go for it.....only £700+ more than the Mara X with a paddle system added......


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## JOeG (Feb 21, 2020)

I don't think I will go lever.

Really tempted to pre-order the marax. Although I watched an ACS minima video earlier and saw it will also take the paddle flow mod.

Trying to convince myself I don't need pressure profiling for the time being!

Does anyone have any thoughts on Mara vs Minima ? I know @DavecUK thinks highly of both...


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

The Minima lacks the soft pressure build up of a full e61 group. The original hole drilled into the front of the group is wonky possibly redrilled by ACS to straighten it. Also it uses off the shelf boilers made by another company which cannot have the heater elements replaced so are a throw away item. The availability of suitable replacements a few years down the line is uncertain. Boilers include unnecessary holes which need to be plugged and are a real leak risk. The quality of some of the metalwork, particularly the drip plate, is poor.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

JOeG said:


> I don't think I will go lever.
> 
> Really tempted to pre-order the marax. Although I watched an ACS minima video earlier and saw it will also take the paddle flow mod.
> 
> ...


 I don't know if Nikko has any experience of using or has ever even seen a Minima in person. Last I checked he hadn't...

For someone new to this type of machine much of the comment above could be alarming, much like scientifically ignorant claims made by the cosmetics industry i.e. "petroleum jelly dissolves plastic so imagine what it does to your skin!!11".

The Minima doesn't have a full E61 group which is really good from a maintenance point of view. You should be backflushing quite regularly and removing the lever from a full group to lubricate it every time is something that annoyed me though YMMV. I also never really felt there was any purpose to the lever system with a vibe pump as you can't lift the lever half way and get any flow like you can when there's line pressure...though you could lower the lever half way to turn the pump off without draining the water from the puck which might be of use if you want to try some weird things. I didn't have any success with my experiments allowing the puck to bloom with my Expobar though.

The pressure build up of a vibe pump is very similar to a full e61 group. You're really talking a 2 second or less difference which in use is insignificant: I didn't notice any difference in quality, channelling etc from switching from the Expobar full E61 to the Minima...if anything the quality slightly improved and I don't believe I had to change grind setting. Using the flow paddle on the Minima allows you to do low-pressure pre-infusion for as long as you want anyway and might be better with a solenoid group compared to a full E61 a you can shorten the ramp up speed if you want (the paddle allows a higher flow rate and thus faster pressure ramp up than stock)...though the paddle comes with parts for the lower part of the group so maybe they change things.

The "leak risk" of the bolts in the bottom of the boilers refers mainly to a Beta (maybe even Alpha) machine that was leaking due to the wrong type of gasket material. Production machines shouldn't have the issue as they are built differently, I can't remember exactly but I think they use sealant rather than a gasket and the bolt might have a ptfe coating but not sure. Heating elements that can be replaced in other boilers are a leak risk which goes without saying really. As for availability of replacement parts you could say that of any machine especially those with custom group heads.

I've been using a Beta machine for two years without issue and I've not noticed any "poor metal work on the drip plate" whatever that is...

The "wonky hole" on the E61 was on the beta machines, not production. For some reason the holes are drilled on a slight angle for solenoid operated groups (or so I remember reading) and ACS are getting them drilled straight as a custom job from the manufacturer (I think). Even if they are re-drilled to make them straight I don't see why that might be of importance to anyone.

As for advantages Vs Mara X.....pass. Possibly better temperature stability especially when profiling. Maybe the ability to precisely set temperature (Mara is just low-med-high?). I'm sure Dave will be along at some point to give you some information. Mara X looks a really good machine to me. If they've successfully made a HX that is temp stable and doesn't need cooling flushes it might be a better option than a dual boiler for home users. Profiling on it might not be as good as a DB but other than that you'll have a couple of different temp settings to play with for different coffees giving you some adjustability. I imagine for most users it'll be more than adequate assuming they've worked their magic on the HX temp issue. If I were buying my first machine the Mara X would likely be top of the list at this stage but I'd give it a bit more time and see more people using them before getting one.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Thanks Rob,

*A few facts*

The Solenoid operated E61 groups ALL have an angled hole because of the way they are made and work, not because of any defect. ALL group manufacturers have to drill them at an angle. The Lever versions can be drilled straight because of the different configuration. ACS actually had the groups customised and the holes drilled a second time to straighten by the group manufacturer *prior* to chroming. They paid extra for this. All done so the gauge would sit straight, it's also why other manufacturers all use a lever group when they mount a PF pressure gauge.

Early machines (early betas), used an o ring on the brass boiler plugs. The guy that had the problem bought a very early beta for £400. ACS did this to make them easier to remove. The problem is that steel and brass can react galvanically over a long time in the presence of water (especially with higher levels of contaminants) and the O ring hardens, eventually they might leak. That reaction makes them difficult to subsequently seal with PTFE tape. If they had used sealant, this wouldn't have been a problem as the threads would be protected. *They now use sealant.* I only found out after the problem because with the best will in the world I can't take a machine apart to component nuts and bolts when testing it. Had I known I would have advised them not to use O rings. It's easily fixed by using a tapered steel plug and PTFE as the brass is the bit that reacts, the steel doesn't react at all.

https://www.bes.co.uk/screwed-hexagon-blanking-plug-stainless-steel-1-4-14484#product-details-tab

Unfortunately the only steel versions are tapered BSP, so for the "few" old machines that might get the issue, get the tapered steel bolt and seal them up with PTFE *but contact me first* as some care/precautions need to be taken using a tapered steel fitting (which incidentally is specifically designed to be used with PTFE or a sealant). It's why the factories in Italy don't use them preferring brass with thread sealant. I talked the person through the fix, it worked immediately and has not leaked since to my knowledge

The Minima has great temperature stability, excellent implementation of last shot protection (done right), good proper dual loop PID, very very powerful steaming and is actually an excellent machine, especially as BB is selling some at £1150. Seriously powerful machine with large boilers for that money. Or believe someone with no experience of either machine, espresso machine design and extremely limited knowledge.

Mine has been used 17 hours per day for, I dunno 1.5 years, perhaps 2 years, no problems and produced loads of shots. Taken the paddle kit well, customised it with wood bits. It works well. It's off the bench for the moment as is the Vesuvius because I have some other machines I'm testing/reviewing and I simply can't have 3 or 4 machines running all the time....no space. Minima works well for me, but so does my Izzo Duetto, Lelit Bianca, Lelit Mara X prototype, ECM Puristika, Vesuvius and Crem One 2B, plus another couple of machines coming soon. I think you would be delighted with any of them. Modern prosumer kit is pretty good nowadays and I'm not that fussy. I do prefer dual boilers but nothing wrong with an HX done right, just a tad harder to use, which is where the Mara X should be a winner if Lo Med High temp is good enough for the purchaser. I only ever sold 2 machines out of my collection one a Rocket R58 because I don't like Andrew meo and the other a Quickmill Verona to a mate as a favour for what I paid for it (factory gate price). Nothing much wrong with either of those 2 machines and I sort of wish I had not sold the Verona TBH.

P.S I love putting a different machine on the counter and simply enjoying it for a while....missing the V and soon want to get the Minima back up, don't want the lads to think I've forgotten them. Just seems wrong to pack em away in boxes and store them!


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

Rob1 said:


> I don't know if Nikko has any experience of using or has ever even seen a Minima in person. Last I checked he hadn't...
> 
> For someone new to this type of machine much of the comment above could be alarming, much like scientifically ignorant claims made by the cosmetics industry i.e. "petroleum jelly dissolves plastic so imagine what it does to your skin!!11".
> 
> ...


 Last time I checked your understanding of how an e61 works was zero and judging by what you've written it has not improved. Without the pressure ramp up part of the e61, there is nothing a vibe pump can do to soften the pressure rise as flow is principally determined by the jet and the OPV setting. Telling people otherwise is misleading and dishonest.

Here is Davecuk waxing lyrical about the slow ramp up on the Mara which also has a vibe pump. In reality Lelit can't take credit for this as it's all down to the e61 design and works pretty much the same on any machine.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2017/11/20/lelit-mara-pl62s/

As regards the leaking plugs, there is absolutely no excuse for not knowing how to do it properly in the first place. We are not dealing with some innovative technology here that requires alpha and beta testing. Glad to here that they have now learned some basic plumbing.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

DavecUK said:


> Thanks Rob,
> 
> *A few facts*
> 
> ...


 I admire your efforts to polish a turd. Yes, all e61 have holes drilled at an angle but only against the horizontal. In the plane through the centre of the group the hole should be in line and lever or no lever, the only excuse for a wonky drilling is if the machinist had a few grappas too many at lunch and could not see properly during the afternoon shift. Yes, they had to be redrilled later but only to correct a mistake. I would not be surprised if the groups used n the Minima were salvaged from the scrap bin.


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## JOeG (Feb 21, 2020)

@Nikko what would you suggest I buy at a similar price point ? 
As far as I can see the maraX is a very good machine for the price and if I want much more quality I'd have to spend a lot more.


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## Nikko (Aug 20, 2014)

JOeG said:


> @Nikko what would you suggest I buy at a similar price point ?
> As far as I can see the maraX is a very good machine for the price and if I want much more quality I'd have to spend a lot more.


 Personally I'd go for a proper dual boiler second hand as prices have been very low lately. The Mara seems OK on paper but I have no experience of it. At least you now have a full picture of the Minima.


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Nikko said:


> At least you now have a full picture of the Minima.


 In fact he certainly hasn't now. But the drip plate does need improvement.

Otherwise it's a great machine.......each to their own.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

nicholasj said:


> In fact he certainly hasn't now. But the drip plate does need improvement.
> 
> Otherwise it's a great machine.......each to their own.


 If it's the usual stuff, I agree with you. In fact this video is a critical piece of learning.


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