# E-61 group overhaul problem...



## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

I had a leak in the lever in the E61 group so I got a gasket kit from BB, (thanks for quick delivery) and my problems started...

I followed the: http://www.frcndigital.com/coffee/HowToE61overhaul.html which is pretty straight forward and not too complicated.

However, I failed in the fact that even though "it works", it doesn't work well, meaning the pressure is not released rapidly, but rather slowly and my shots started to taste more sour? (Is that possible?)

What puzzles me is why the release is worst now than before? All I changed is a few gaskets and washers and springs. No hardware like valves.

Everything seems to be seated etc...just not the whoosh of release.

Any ideas anyone?

TIA

PS Mods, I'd appreciate if the post is not moved to Isomac section, (with 3 owners), since it is a generic E-61 group...thanks


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Have you tried putting the old springs back in ? Could it be that the new springs are a slightly different length or strength?


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

marcuswar said:


> Have you tried putting the old springs back in ? Could it be that the new springs are a slightly different length or strength?


No, maybe I should have....if it doesn't get better I'll try that. It is in the lower part of the group anyway...

Thanks for the tip


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Are the small springs both the same? Not sure but I think there could be a slight difference in length /strength.Are the three sided valve stems slightly tight, I seem to recall on Urbans that one of the was tight and did not move freely. A touch on some wet &dry will cure if that is the problem.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Do you have a micrometer./vernier to try measuring the lengths of the various strings against the originals (you can pick up a cheap digital set for about £5 i.e. http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-150mm-LCD-Digital-Display-Electronic-Micrometer-Vernier-Caliper-Gauge-Measurm-/390930452905?pt=UK_Measuring_Tools_Levels&hash=item5b054551a9).

Just a thought but did you check the cam and valve stems for wear ? I know mine definitely need replacing as the valve stems have curved ends where they have been worn down by the cam.

Having said all that, I do find that mine doesn't always whoosh after back flushing either. Sometimes it whooshes, sometimes the water just drops out. I've always assumed this is down to the wear and tear described above and that I need to do a rebuild with new cam and valves at some point.


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

Thanks for help.

I will see if the 3 sided valve moves freely, thanks

The springs are different, they recommend replacing tired ones with new, which assures a better seal.

*I thought I fixed it,* this morning I took the upper and lower group parts apart, checked them out, measured and carefully reassembled, making sure in the lower part, where the upper valve goes into the "guide" to push on the lower valve to make that whoosh is "aligned" and not jammed...

*First try was good, worked normal*, ...I thought I fixed it, I let the machine warm up, made a double, same problem... I think I'm gonna flip, problem is I can't figure out what's wrong...It seems like the valve that pushes on the 2nd valve isn't long enough or jams?

bummer...

I think I will try to slightly unscrew the valve seat nuts to extend the length? (sounds desperate) (step 19-22 in frcn guide, below)

http://www.frcndigital.com/coffee/HowToE61overhaul.html

Overview with parts:

http://coffeetimex.wdfiles.com/local--files/e61-group-servicing/e61full.JPG

cheers


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

That sounds more like the valve stems are worn or maybe even the cam itself? The ends of the valves should be completely flat, if they looked curved in any way then they are worn and need replacing.I assume you bought the cheaper seal kit rather than the £40 full refurb kit which includes a new cam and valves?


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Just found a small picture of a very worn valve (mine actually look just like this!). You can clearly see how the top of the valve has been worn away by the rotation of the cam/lever.

If yours looks anything like this then you need a new valve, but its probably wise to actually replace all of them and the cam itself.


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

marcuswar said:


> Just found a small picture of a very worn valve (mine actually look just like this!). You can clearly see how the top of the valve has been worn away by the rotation of the cam/lever.
> 
> If yours looks anything like this then you need a new valve, but its probably wise to actually replace all of them and the cam itself.



View attachment 9206


Thanks Marcus for help, this time I fixed it.









My valves look nothing like your photo, if they did, I'd get the whole master kit, my machine is a couple of years old and not much used...

I think I found the problem...all the way on the bottom of our groups (Isomac) there is a small brass/bronze plate that fits into the end of group extension, small plate, (which is by the way not the same as shown in the frcn espresso how to), that can go in both ways. Since it was stuck with coffee debris, when I knocked it out I didn't know how it came out and I re-installed it in reverse,. It was working, but slower, it took longer time to depressurize through the smaller holes...It is open on both ends, but with more volume on the correct side...

Anyway, if you're going to do rebuild, it is really simple, ((look who's talking LOL) the hardest was changing the rubber washers, unscrewing/screwing the tiny threaded bits, 3 of them...

Now, I can take an E61 group apart and rebuild it blindfolded...









Have a nice weekend,

Karel


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Glad you got it sorted Karel, thanks for posting your findings I'm sure that information will come in handy









I think I've read somewhere on another forum about people increasing the flow on that brass plate/restrictor (if it's what I think it is) by cutting extra channels in it with a hacksaw.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Is that the small disc with the raised centre that centres the end of the spring in the body ??


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

El carajillo said:


> Is that the small disc with the raised centre that centres the end of the spring in the body ??


*That's the culprit*...and I managed to to put it in backwards...only 50% chance right? And that raised center fits nicely into the opening, but it centers the spring...

What's strange is that even put in upside down it "works"...but poorly and kind of threw me off, thinking the stem valves were jammed or didn't open far enough...

It really is a very clever system, man I must have watched some videos dozen times...






Thanks all for help


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Well, inspired by soundklinik and the fact that I have some spare birthday money I've ordered a full E-61 rebuild kit from Bella Barista


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

marcuswar said:


> Well, inspired by soundklinik and the fact that I have some spare birthday money I've ordered a full E-61 rebuild kit from Bella Barista


Good luck Marcus, if you need any help on which parts go upside down, just let me know


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Cheers Karel, my kit arrived on Wednesday so it's just a case of finding some spare time to do it... if I get stuck I'll give you a shout









I also bought some waterpump pliers so I may have another go at adjusting my OPV again as well!


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## soundklinik (May 31, 2013)

marcuswar said:


> Cheers Karel, my kit arrived on Wednesday so it's just a case of finding some spare time to do it... if I get stuck I'll give you a shout
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's easy and delicate work,...and enjoyable.

I still can't believe that you can't loosen the OPV screw....as you grab it with pliers, you pull *down* to loosen it...it is a fine thread 8mm diameter or so? I used "locking" pliers jaws wrapped with paper masking tape...

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Stanley-084809-Locking-Pliers-9-inch/dp/B000X2B3DS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1412343730&sr=8-1&keywords=Locking+Pliers

Good luck and don't be afraid to give the OPV a turn


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

I think part of the issue is that I've only had small pliers like ; http://www.amazon.co.uk/Draper-Series-09402-Combination-Pliers/dp/B003D0M7RS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1412344926&sr=8-2&keywords=Pliers

and so the jaws don't actually grab the brass top and bottom (i.e. 180 degrees apart) and so slip very easily. The waterpump pliers are more like the locking pliers you linked to (except they don't lock) so the jaws remain more parallel to each other and so give a more secure grip.

Good tip about putting masking tape on the jaw faces, personally I use electricians tape but either will certainly prevent any scratching etc.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Just a quick update ;

The water pump pliers didn't help.. the OPV is definitely stuck. I think I'll probably just buy a new OPV valve (~£14)

The E61 rebuild kit from Bella Barista arrived but when I tried to fit it I discovered that it doesn't fit the Isomac Tea. The biggest issue is that the Cam from the kit does not fit as it has no small nub on the end that the Tea requires. The valve stems are also slightly different lengths and the exhaust valve itself is slightly different. The good news (for me) is that Bella Barista's customer support is fantastic and they allowed the kit to be returned for a full refund (inc the original postage!). The bad news is that I'm now struggling to find anyone selling the parts I need. Ferrari Espresso sell the cam and seals but not the actual valves (or valve pins) or springs. Does anyone know of anyone selling the small brass valve pins that screw onto the valves?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

When you say "no small nub on the end" do you mean that there is no short shaft /spindle beyond the cam , about 4 or 5 mm on the new kit cam??


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Yes Frank, there is no short shat/spindle beyond the cam in the rebuild kit supplied by BB.

In the screenshot below the original cam from my Tea is the top one and the bottom one is the one in the BB rebuild kit.









Again the top brew valve is the one from my Tea (you can see how badly the valve pin has been worn by the cam) and the bottom is the BB kit









The top exhaust valve is mine and the bottom the BB kit. You can see how the valve stems are completely different lengths.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I wonder if that lower one is miss machined, the cams I have seen all have the extended spindle.

The valves not only look longer but thinner shaft as well.

The cam definitely and possibly the valves look identical to the ones on Quick mill E 61 The kit looks quite odd.

Ask Clive (Urban /B) if he still has the spare valves and can he check the dimensions for you. He had some spare when I serviced his machine for him.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I'll see if I can dig these out. Will report back


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

I don't think it was mis-machined as they do sell a selection of 3 cams individually and one of those don't have the nub either.

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-parts/coffee-machine-parts/e61-group-head/group-lever-with-cam.html

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-parts/coffee-machine-parts/e61-group-head/group-lever-cam.html

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-parts/coffee-machine-parts/e61-group-head/group-stem-cam.html

"E61 Standard"..... like all standards, everyone has their own!

I'll drop Clive a pm and see if he can measure them. Would be good to know that they are the same as the Quickmill as Isomacs doesn't seem to be a very popular brand in the UK.

Thanks Frank.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I'll see if I can dig these out. Will report back


LoL... you jumped in before I could pm you









If you could post any details on the dimensions I'd greatly appreciate it Clive (in your own time of course... no rush).


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

This is the only spare I could still find, that and a spare OPV valve.

I think the other replaced bits were left at Franks.

It this any good?


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanks for taking the time to try Clive.

It was really the exhaust valve dimensions I was interested in... that looks like the brew valve that cam in the BB kit i.e. it has a cylindrical shaft and a square pin. The one in my Tea is a triangular shaft and pin. Having said that, I doubt it makes any difference as long as the actual lengths are the same.

It's really only the cam and small screw on pins for the valves that I need..I just can't find anyone in the UK selling the pins on their own.


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

Just an update on this... having returned the Bella Barista kit, I contacted a few other suppliers about getting replacement pins and cam for the Isomac. One supplier "Ferrari Espresso" managed to source a supply of the pins for me and so I ordered some pins, valve seals and a new cam... not cheap (£42) but at least it would be sorted. The parts arrived today and I rushed home to fit them. Unfortunately the cam doesn't fit as the "nub" diameter is too large, 6.8mm diameter compared to mine of 6.2mm. The square section at the handle end is also too large at 7mm compared to mine at 6mm. Even more frustratingly the pins won't fit either as the thread pitch seems different and so the won't screw onto the valves. I'll be ringing Ferrari Espresso tomorrow to see if they can shed any light on this... Grrr., and here was me thinking that the E-61 was standard ! I'm beginning to wonder if my machines is a bit of a Frankenstein's monster and doesn't actually have an Isomac E61 group ?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Sometimes the manufacturers also change the group supplier over time!


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## marcuswar (Aug 19, 2013)

I've been speaking with "Frank" at Ferrari Espresso and long story shot he is in the process of sourcing an appropriate cam and pins as he has come across the same issue while servicing an Isomac Zaffiro he has in the shop.


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