# Oracle Not Grinding Fine Enough



## Jinsin456

I've already emailed Sage about this to see what they say but figure it can't hurt to get a second opinion.

My Oracle doesn't seem to be grinding fine enough for what I expected.

During my white glove service I was using Rave Italian Job but Steve (CC Barista) didn't seem to be able to get it fine enough either and it was over extracting by quite a bit. He changed over to the CC Barista Guatemalan coffee and with the grinder set at 8 and a 30 second extraction, this made the perfect shot. This coffee was a bit dark for us and when I went on the website it says it's for filter coffees and cafetieres, not espresso. That and the delivery was expensive so it wouldn't be a viable option to use this.

I've been trying to replicate these results using more Rave coffee, roast dates vary from about 4 days old up to a max of about 9 days and it all seems to be much the same.

I've got the grinder set on 1 and have even removed the burrs and manually turned them to fine a notch (Out the box they were set at 6, now they are at 5) and it still seems to be over extracting. I'm getting about 70 - 80mls for a 30 second shot with the grinder at its finest setting. I'm assuming Rave coffee should be a good coffee to use as I know it's quite popular on here.

I asked Steve about the low grind numbers and he says it varies from machine to machine. My thinking is that I would like it somewhere in the middle (About 20) and that would give me the option to go up or down depending on what beans I'm using and accounting for changes over time as the beans age.

My puck is usually dry after extraction, sometimes there is a small area of surface water but not a lot (Steve adjusted the dosing as he said it was a bit wet).

I've tried adjusting the tamp settings but this results in the puck breaking up rather than coming out whole and didn't make much difference to the coffee.

All settings are stock on the machine apart from the grind settings.

My workflow is as follows, Turn machine on, fill cup with hot water to pre-heat, run a sink shot through the porta-filter to heat everything, purge milk frother, start steaming milk, remove portafilter and dry, grind, put porttafilter in grouphead and extract.

Does anyone have any advice?


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## Mrboots2u

80mls is alot of Coffee over 30 seconds.

This may explain your grind setting.

Can you weigh then output of epsresso and aim for about 40-45g over 30 seconds

I suspect there is nothing really wrong with the grinder just the recipe you a rev trying to use.

Take out burrs though again and make sure they are back correct etc.


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## Jinsin456

Mrboots2u said:


> 80mls is alot of Coffee over 30 seconds.
> 
> This may explain your grind setting.
> 
> Can you weigh then output of epsresso and aim for about 40-45g over 30 seconds
> 
> I suspect there is nothing really wrong with the grinder just the recipe you a rev trying to use.
> 
> Take out burrs though again and make sure they are back correct etc.


It does seem like a lot.

I'm aiming for 40 - 45g but it seems to be hitting this in about 20 seconds. I'm seeing coffee after 6 -7 seconds, with the grinder in its finest setting. According to Sage's promotions this shouid be more like 9 - 12 seconds. According to their guides if it's coming out this quickly and overextracting then my grinder should be set finer but it can't be set any finer, unless I remove the burrs and change them down again. I feel a bit funny doing this though as it should be working out the box for the money.

I've just had an email from Sage and they said it's the coffee I'm using and I should try Pact. I don't really think this is a solution though as it's not like I'm not using good coffee.

We've tried pact in the past and were not huge fans so would prefer not to go down this route.

I'm using Rave Columbian Suarez Project single origin just now and getting identical results from the Italian Job.


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## ronsil

On my Oracle when using Rave Columbian Suarez SO I set the grinder to 11 giving 22.5 grams ground coffee. Tamp is set to 5. This extracts to 46 grams espresso in circa 45 seconds including 10 seconds pre-infusion.

Usually leave this Coffee for 21 days after roasting.

Before putting the beans into the hopper I clear out any beans left over from the previous grind. I always weigh in 25 grams coffee into the hopper which delivers the 22.5 grams I need. Wasteful I know but produces the best results on the Oracle for me.


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## Jinsin456

It seems like the coffee I'm using is too fresh then by the sounds of it.

Would this impact the final extraction that much but leaving it for an extra few weeks?


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## Dylan

How much coffee are you putting in the basket? If you happen to be putting too little coffee in there then it will run fast.

If you are putting the right amount of coffee in the basket and it cant grind fine enough to get a good extraction out of Rave IJ then i would say that classifies as a faulty grinder and a reason to have it serviced under warranty or replaced if necessary. If its out of warranty then it might be possible to shim the grinder.

There have been various reports of the newer Sage Smart Grinder Pro having similar problems, which it should not have.


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## Jinsin456

Dylan said:


> How much coffee are you putting in the basket? If you happen to be putting too little coffee in there then it will run fast.
> 
> If you are putting the right amount of coffee in the basket and it cant grind fine enough to get a good extraction out of Rave IJ then i would say that classifies as a faulty grinder and a reason to have it serviced under warranty or replaced if necessary. If its out of warranty then it might be possible to shim the grinder.
> 
> There have been various reports of the newer Sage Smart Grinder Pro having similar problems, which it should not have.


The dosing on the Oracle is set so in theory it can't be adjusted easily. The guy from the white glove service did adjust the dosing using a screw inside the grinder but he said I shouldn't touch that.

I'm not sure of the weight of the current dose but I can find out.

After extraction there is an imprint of the showerhead on the puck so I don't think I could get much more coffee into the portafilter.


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## urbanbumpkin

Are you able to weigh the dose that's coming out of the grinder?


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## Jinsin456

urbanbumpkin said:


> Are you able to weigh the dose that's coming out of the grinder?


I should be able to do this tomorrow, I'm at work at the moment so can't do it right now.

Should I be aiming for about 21g?


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## Tufty_B

If you need to grind finer, I'd suggest removing the burrs and winding it down a notch to 4, trying again and if needed, go even lower on burr setting to see if that slows the flow.


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## Jinsin456

Tufty_B said:


> If you need to grind finer, I'd suggest removing the burrs and winding it down a notch to 4, trying again and if needed, go even lower on burr setting to see if that slows the flow.


When I spoke to Steve who did my white glove service he said that this shouldn't need adjusted as it's to account for wear over time and I have only found one article on here where someone has had to move theirs so I feel a bit strange adjusting it more.

If anyone has an Oracle, could they check what their burrs are set to as it may just have been set differently out the factory?

Cheers


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## Mrboots2u

Jinsin456 said:


> When I spoke to Steve who did my white glove service he said that this shouldn't need adjusted as it's to account for wear over time and I have only found one article on here where someone has had to move theirs so I feel a bit strange adjusting it more.
> 
> If anyone has an Oracle, could they check what their burrs are set to as it may just have been set differently out the factory?
> 
> Cheers


dont touch the dose , it will be around 21g from memory ...

you should be able to use coffee after 7 days , 21 days may be optimal for some , but anything from 7 days onwards should be useable, and i wouldnt expect it to be needing the finest grind setting.

Where and how are you storing your coffee btw.

What actual coffee are you suing ?


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## Jinsin456

Mrboots2u said:


> dont touch the dose , it will be around 21g from memory ...
> 
> you should be able to use coffee after 7 days , 21 days may be optimal for some , but anything from 7 days onwards should be useable, and i wouldnt expect it to be needing the finest grind setting.
> 
> Where and how are you storing your coffee btw.
> 
> What actual coffee are you suing ?


Steve changed the dose so I'm pretty confident that should be ok, he never weighed anything at any point though, he just had a cup with a level mark for the shot.

I'm storing the beans in the hopper on top of the machine which holds 250g, realistically they will be there for about 3 - 4 days max as we drink a lot of coffee. We've been using 1kg bags and I squeeze most of the air out, tape them up making sure that the one way valve is not covered and then put the bag in the cupboard.

Currently I'm using the Suarez project SO from Rave. Was roasted on the 2nd so today marks 7 days and the shot I had this afternoon before work wasn't as it should be.

The other beans I've tried are from Rave (Italian Job) and Artizan Roast (Janzoon Blend) but all seem to have the same results. The only good shots I've been able to get were from the Guatemalan blend Steve provided but as I said this is recommended for filters. Even at that the grinder was down at about 6 I think.


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## Tufty_B

Jinsin456 said:


> When I spoke to Steve who did my white glove service he said that this shouldn't need adjusted as it's to account for wear over time and I have only found one article on here where someone has had to move theirs so I feel a bit strange adjusting it more.
> 
> If anyone has an Oracle, could they check what their burrs are set to as it may just have been set differently out the factory?
> 
> Cheers


I suspect that all of the Sage grinder burrs are set to 6 as factory default, as that's what the BE is out of the box. When I had a BE, I had to set my burr at 5 for decent beans, however I've set the burr right down to 1 for supermarket beans, with the grind wheel on the side to as low as 9.

After that I never used cheap beans again, even those with roast dates.


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## Tufty_B

Tufty_B said:


> After that I never used cheap beans again, even those with roast dates.


By cheap beans, I mean those available from supermarkets, a very few of which have a roasted on date, though generally roasted at least month or so ago.


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## ajohn

Don't know if this will help but the grinders on these look as if they may be the same as the smart grinder pro. I bought one of these recently and checked it over before putting any beans in. I found that the burrs were chirping on a setting of 1 so coarsened the burr settings by one notch. That shifts it's position by 0.1mm.

The grinder was a "factory reconditioned" one so had been used but the burrs were very clean. Just slight staining on parts of the centre one.

Before I made the adjustment the motor slowed down and sounded increasingly pretty busy after it had been running for some seconds - I'd guess about 5. After the adjustment it just slows down a bit on setting 1.

With respect to white gloves there will be manufacturing tolerances. Those could easily stack up to numbers like 0.1mm due to the number of parts involved. I might find it's set too fine but feel I can get an idea by how far I have to shift from 12 with different beans.

Sadly I haven't ground any beans with it yet but this might be a useful check as to where you are on the settings.. I have a BE and bought it so that I can use 2 types of beans without messing about and also to try others in small quantities.

John

-


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## ronsil

You need to know the weight coming out of the Oracle. Weigh the empty PF with the supplied basket. Other baskets, VST etc, can produce varying results. Empty the grinds already in the burrs (run them into an empty basket) & put about 25 grams into the hopper. put the PF under the grinder & let it do its 'thing' & when the noise stops take off the now loaded PF & reweigh to tell you the amount produced.

I have found that different Oracle Machines deliver slightly different results. between 21.0-22.5. Put your cup on a scale under the PF reloaded into the group head & draw off double the weight of the beans (ratio 2:1). With 10 secs pre-infusion & circa 22 gms coffee you may well be looking at a time approaching 46 seconds for a shot.


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## Mrboots2u

why are we aiming for a 2 to 1 ratio , thats really strong and mire than likely under extracted........


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## urbanbumpkin

Jinsin456 said:


> I should be able to do this tomorrow, I'm at work at the moment so can't do it right now.
> 
> Should I be aiming for about 21g?


It should be approx 21g. All I'm trying to confirm is if it's the dose that's out or the grinder that's not going fine enough.

Something's not right with it.


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## Jinsin456

Mrboots2u said:


> why are we aiming for a 2 to 1 ratio , thats really strong and mire than likely under extracted........


Just from reading that this is a good starting point and it's what the recommended extraction is on Rave, they recommend 20g in to 42g out so basically 2:1.

It's not even so much about the final output, I think that the machine should be producing good coffee somewhere in the middle and have the ability to over or under extract based on the settings. I don't like the idea that the machine is set to the finest grind digitally possible and I can't even try a 2:1 extraction as it cannot do that.

Don't get me wrong the coffee tastes good but it's just frustrating to know that it could maybe be better but I am not getting a chance to find out.


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## Jinsin456

Tufty_B said:


> I suspect that all of the Sage grinder burrs are set to 6 as factory default, as that's what the BE is out of the box. When I had a BE, I had to set my burr at 5 for decent beans, however I've set the burr right down to 1 for supermarket beans, with the grind wheel on the side to as low as 9.
> 
> After that I never used cheap beans again, even those with roast dates.


Did you have to do anything when you manually adjusted the burrs? I had read somewhere that 1 manual adjustment was equivalent to about 15 digital steps so I just left the digital wheel where it was and it did make it better but I wouldn't say 15 increments better.


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## Jinsin456

urbanbumpkin said:


> It should be approx 21g. All I'm trying to confirm is if it's the dose that's out or the grinder that's not going fine enough.
> 
> Something's not right with it.


Cool, I think I have accurate scales in the house somewhere so I'll give it a bash tomorrow morning.

Steve did show me the dosing mechanism but not really how to alter it, looks straight forward to adjust but if anyone has done it and has tips it would be greatly appreciated


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## ronsil

Mrboots2u said:


> why are we aiming for a 2 to 1 ratio , thats really strong and mire than likely under extracted........


Because thats a good starting point & easily obtained. Dependant on beans it can be stronger but remember there is a good percentage of folk who prefer it that way.

If you are trying to get to grips with a new machine you need something simple which can be fairly easily attained. When the machine is mastered that is the time IMO to experiment to find & develop your own personal preferences.

Just seen your other post. Strongly advise not to mess with the dosing but try to work with what consistantly is delivered.


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## Mrboots2u

ronsil said:


> Because thats a good starting point & easily obtained. Dependant on beans it can be stronger but remember there is a good percentage of folk who prefer it that way.
> 
> If you are trying to get to grips with a new machine you need something simple which can be fairly easily attained. When the machine is mastered that is the time IMO to experiment to find & develop your own personal preferences.
> 
> Just seen your other post. Strongly advise not to mess with the dosing but try to work with what consistantly is delivered.


So you mean a 1:2 ratio then... it's confusing ....

coffee to water ratio , is the way it's expressed .


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## Jinsin456

Mrboots2u said:


> So you mean a 1:2 ratio then... it's confusing ....
> 
> coffee to water ratio , is the way it's expressed .


Sorry that was probably my bad, pretty new to this level of detail tbh.

Yeah I meant 1:2 is what's recommended but right now with the grinder at the finest setting it's closer to 1:4.


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## Tufty_B

Jinsin456 said:


> Did you have to do anything when you manually adjusted the burrs? I had read somewhere that 1 manual adjustment was equivalent to about 15 digital steps so I just left the digital wheel where it was and it did make it better but I wouldn't say 15 increments better.


I vacuumed out the grinder, removed the top burr, took off the metal loop, twisted the burr to the required setting (i.e. 1) and refitted the top burr. Finally setting the grind wheel to 20 before trying out a shot. Finding out that eventually having to set the wheel to 9 in my worst case.

Though changing the burr setting is wasteful of beans, that's one of the reasons I ended up single dosing (weighing out beans for each shot & dropping them into an empty hooper), however this might be an issue with the Oracle because it's expecting it's own fixed dose before tamping unlike the BE where I'd be doing the tamping.

If you're not getting the result that you want/expect then why not try adjusting the burr to 4 and then 3 if necessary as a test and see what happens, or if you happy with the taste at the current settings why not try another bean from a different roaster and see how you get on with those.

I remember measuring the top burr adjustment limits with a vernier gauge and seem to remember that each step change of the metal hoop was 0.1mm.


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> Sorry that was probably my bad, pretty new to this level of detail tbh.
> 
> Yeah I meant 1:2 is what's recommended but right now with the grinder at the finest setting it's closer to 1:4.


You can't kill the shot manually?

What does it taste like at 1:4?


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## Jinsin456

MWJB said:


> You can't kill the shot manually?
> 
> What does it taste like at 1:4?


I can stop it when it reaches 42g and can adjust the machine to stop automatically but that would only take about 20 seconds which is not long enough according to everything else I've read.

It tastes good, imo a bit watery, it could be the placebo effect because I know it's wrong that it tastes weak.


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> I can stop it when it reaches 42g and can adjust the machine to stop automatically but that would only take about 20 seconds which is not long enough according to everything else I've read.
> 
> It tastes good, imo a bit watery, it could be the placebo effect because I know it's wrong that it tastes weak.


20s probably isn't long enough, but there's no harm in giving 63g and 42g a go & comparing the taste.


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## Jinsin456

MWJB said:


> 20s probably isn't long enough, but there's no harm in giving 63g and 42g a go & comparing the taste.


I feel like if I wanted 63g it should take longer to extract ie adjusting the time to suit the final yield doesn't really seem to be the answer here.

I'm going to weigh everything tomorrow then manually change the top burr. I thought they could be changed for wear as they would be expensive but I've just been on their website and its about £25 for a new top burr, doesn't seem worth trying to make this one last and drinking inferior coffee for the sake of 25 quid coming a bit earlier.


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## urbanbumpkin

Hold on, is this a newly bought machine from new? If so why not get a replacement?


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> I feel like if I wanted 63g it should take longer to extract ie adjusting the time to suit the final yield doesn't really seem to be the answer here.
> 
> I'm going to weigh everything tomorrow then manually change the top burr. I thought they could be changed for wear as they would be expensive but I've just been on their website and its about £25 for a new top burr, doesn't seem worth trying to make this one last and drinking inferior coffee for the sake of 25 quid coming a bit earlier.


Don't put so much store in time. If your coffee tastes good at 1:4 it is good. Longer ratios will be weaker than short ratios, see if the flavour drops off at the shorter ratio (which will be a little stronger), if it does, then you need to go finer.

You said you still have room to manually adjust your burrs, so why are you looking to replace anything?


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## Jinsin456

I bought the machine from John Lewis about a month ago, I probably could take it back but I've already binned the box and it's a bit of a hassle to get to.

I've emailed Sage so hopefully if it is something wrong I can replace it.

I'm not looking to replace the burrs, I thought the manual adjustment was to compensate for wear over time. This got me thinking that the burrs must be expensive and by turning the burrs down manually I would be starting with effectively worn burrs and getting less time out of them. I read somewhere that after a couple of years they probably need changed to compensate for wear so if I'm going from setting 6 down to potentially 3 or 4 then effectively my burrs are 50% worn from the off.

If the burrs were massively expensive then I would be annoyed about this but as they are only £25 it's not really then end of the world having to manually set them down and potentially lose a couple of years when they're going to last years anyway.

This makes sense in my head but I've probably not written it as well as I think I have so hopefully it make sense.


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## Jinsin456

I agree that I need to try other ratios than 1:2 but I would just like to be able to get there so that I can use that as a benchmark and base my preferences on that other than feeling like something is missing atm because I don't know what this coffee tastes like at 1:2. For the money I paid for the machine I think it should be able to extract the coffee to the roasters basic specifications.

Then once it's there, I can play with it and make it better for my palette.


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## Dylan

Burrs don't wear down that much, i don't know how fine the adjustment is but burrs will go blunt a long time before they lose anything significant from the outer top surface.


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## Tufty_B

As Dylan said, they don't significantly wear down. They are not like a car brake pads/discs which wear down with use and then need replacing. The burr's grinding surface will eventually go blunt, more like a kitchen knife does over time.

By adjusting the top burr setting to a lower number you are moving the burr grinding surfaces closer together thereby reducing the gap between the upper and lower burrs with the result of forcing the beans through a smaller gap and therefore obtaining a finer grind.

Hopefully my explaination makes a little more sense.


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## Jinsin456

Yeah that all makes sense.

Goal tomorrow then is to get 1:2 at 30 seconds, that way I know the speed is correct and I can start to experiment with ratios.

Ideally I'm going to try and adjust the burrs so that I'm getting the correct speed when my digital setting is about 20. Sage recommends this as a starting point and figure this will give me a good range for new beans as all the ones I've had from Rave seem to be exactly the same so far.

I'll report back tomorrow with results


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## johnealey

You may want to leave your Italian Job at least 15 days to rest before consistent results attained with Single Origins about 10 days to really come on song as espresso.

John


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## ajohn

Did you read the manual ? Page 28 in particular. It tells you exactly what you need to know for a "perfect" extraction. The most important aspect is the pre infusion time - they suggest 8-10 secs. I quoted perfect because you might find more or less better. Too long a period will cause the pump to stall though.*

It then goes on to extraction time. You'll see there is a rather large range.

The next aspect is shot size. Your white gloves man had a tumbler with a level mark on it. He will have been aiming at 30ml for a single and 60 for a double. The easiest way to measure that for most people are a set of small scales under the mug or what ever you are going to drink it from.

If you forget what your currently trying to do and work to achieve their suggested aims you'll get as good a coffee out of the machine as the bean can provide. It's your mouth on the end of it though so there is scope for variation outside of their suggested figures as well as inside them.

The other important aspect is the weight of coffee in the filter baskets. To little and the top of the puck will be wet. Too fine a grind may do that as well. The best option in that area seems to be near to the middle of the range that Sage state for the baskets. They don't mention it in the Oracle manual. They probably will in the dual boiler manual.

Quickly scanning the manual its a pretty complicated machine to use and no facility to change the weight of coffee used so I assume it weighs. *The infusion pressure can be changed as well. Also not clear what happens if single shot baskets are used or 12gm ones. I drink long blacks and 9gm of the beans I am using give me a stronger 400ml mug of coffee than Costa etc offer so it seems if I had one and it can only cope with 2 shot baskets I wouldn't be a happy man as I don't like muddy pucks. Like I said though I only scanned it quickly. I would read it vary carefully if I intended to buy one. I did on my BE and noticed that there wasn't a 12gm basket for it. As I thought at the time that is a problem. I've already found one bean that I wont buy again. There will be a number of others. It's a sad problem with the machine. Might be with yours too. No answer other than grinding coarser so that the basket can be filled more but that doesn't taste the same so stuck with soggy messy pucks.

John

--


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## Jinsin456

Right this mornings update.

Weighed the dosing and its bang on 22g, that I can live with.

Cleaned the grinder, removed the top burrs and set them to 3 manually, with a bit of playing I'm down to 5 on the digital settings but this is yielding an approx 45g shot which is bang on 1:2 more or less so that's the speed of the shot dialled in.

When I tasted 1:2 it came alive! I wasn't really getting the tasting notes as it tasted quite bland but omg the difference was incredible.


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## Jinsin456

Update again after the second extraction.

Exact same process used doing everything the same and I've just got a 53g extraction in 30 secs.

I've emailed sage and they are still blaming my beans but this is the 3Rd different batch from Rave I've used and am still getting the same results.


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> Update again after the second extraction.
> 
> Exact same process used doing everything the same and I've just got a 53g extraction in 30 secs.
> 
> I've emailed sage and they are still blaming my beans but this is the 3Rd different batch from Rave I've used and am still getting the same results.


Why aren't you stopping the shot at the correct weight? Sage can't do anything about this, beyond coming round your house and pulling every shot for you 

Is it still tasting good?


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## Jinsin456

MWJB said:


> Why aren't you stopping the shot at the correct weight? Sage can't do anything about this, beyond coming round your house and pulling every shot for you
> 
> Is it still tasting good?


I wouldn't mind stopping manually but it seems like there is still too much variation in shot speed.

I don't know if I'm being too critical but it just seems like it should be better than this. I'm not expecting the exact same result every time but between 2 shots there's a 25% variation which doesn't seem normal.

The coffee still tastes good but it does vary greatly between shots.


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> I wouldn't mind stopping manually but it seems like there is still too much variation in shot speed.
> 
> I don't know if I'm being too critical but it just seems like it should be better than this. I'm not expecting the exact same result every time but between 2 shots there's a 25% variation which doesn't seem normal.
> 
> The coffee still tastes good but it does vary greatly between shots.


A 25% variation in what? Taste? The biggest variation is in beverage mass, reduce this and you will have less variation in shot quality than you will by keeping the time the same, but with different weights. Time is only a broad guide (e.g. +/-5sec)


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## Jinsin456

Plus or minus 5 seconds wouldn't be an issue, is this a general tolerance?

Sorry I'm a bit new to the whole weighing and shot times etc so I'm a bit clueless, if +/- 5secs is the general then I would be happy with this.


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> Plus or minus 5 seconds wouldn't be an issue, is this a general tolerance?
> 
> Sorry I'm a bit new to the whole weighing and shot times etc so I'm a bit clueless, if +/- 5secs is the general then I would be happy with this.


If you're brewing by ratio (weighing in & out) you hit the same ratio as your target. Note time but don't kill the shot by time. For a similar extraction (flavour balance) shot time can wander by +/-5sec at the same weight. If you make all 30sec shots then the weight & extraction will wander and the taste will be less consistent.

If you change coffees and things turn sour, grind finer & if shots take a little longer when they taste good, so be it.

You're mixing up 2 differing methods of pulling a shot. Remember you are making a tasty drink, not taking part in a time trial


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## Jinsin456

Yeah I'm probably being a bit more analytical than I should be with regards to the timing.

I'll stick to shot weight and try and use the time for reference to make sure I'm still in the ball park. Before I changed the grinder I would have had 1:2 in about 17 seconds which would probably be too fast.

I'll kill the shot at 44g and as long as the time is between 25 - 35 secs I'm guessing I should be happy?


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> I'll kill the shot at 44g and as long as the time is between 25 - 35 secs I'm guessing I should be happy?


If you're not happy & the shot is sour, grind finer until you are happy again.


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## urbanbumpkin

Are you able to grind any finer?

Might be worth trying Square Mile Red brick to completely rule the beans out (for Sages sake).............. I think it's the machine


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## Jinsin456

I could grind finer but the problem is that to go much finer I'm going to need to move the top burr manually again. It's already at setting 3 and the digital setting on front of the machine is set at 5 so it's already a lot finer than it's meant to be going by Sage's guidelines.

I could try another brand but to be honest, that coffee is £30 a kg and we're currently using 1kg about every 10 days (We drink quite a lot of coffee). Rave is a good bit cheaper than that so we can justify using the machine for every coffee we have. Square mile would work out about £90 a month vs Rave which is about £35 to £55 and I know others have had good results with Rave.

I'm still waiting on a response from Sage So i'll let everyone know the outcome.


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> I could grind finer but the problem is that to go much finer I'm going to need to move the top burr manually again. It's already at setting 3 and the digital setting on front of the machine is set at 5 so it's already a lot finer than it's meant to be going by Sage's guidelines.


What's the problem so long as your burrs are not gnashing together & chirping? As long as there is some gap between them & they are grinding well enough, they are doing what they are supposed to do.


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## Mrboots2u

urbanbumpkin said:


> Are you able to grind any finer?
> 
> Might be worth trying Square Mile Red brick to completely rule the beans out (for Sages sake).............. I think it's the machine


Why


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## urbanbumpkin

Mrboots2u said:


> Why


I was just thinking that if Sage are still blaming the beans, then SQM are a well known roaster that they can't quibble about.


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## Mrboots2u

urbanbumpkin said:


> I was just thinking that if Sage are still blaming the beans, then SQM are a well known roaster that they can't quibble about.


I'm not sure there is anything wrong with either.


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## urbanbumpkin

Jinsin456 said:


> I could grind finer but the problem is that to go much finer I'm going to need to move the top burr manually again. It's already at setting 3 and the digital setting on front of the machine is set at 5 so it's already a lot finer than it's meant to be going by Sage's guidelines.
> 
> I could try another brand but to be honest, that coffee is £30 a kg and we're currently using 1kg about every 10 days (We drink quite a lot of coffee). Rave is a good bit cheaper than that so we can justify using the machine for every coffee we have. Square mile would work out about £90 a month vs Rave which is about £35 to £55 and I know others have had good results with Rave.
> 
> I'm still waiting on a response from Sage So i'll let everyone know the outcome.


It's got to be the machine, take back. I would mention that you been adjusting the burrs.


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## ajohn

The only thing that might be wrong is the grinder burr setting or maybe no definite click when the burr was replaced and locked home. The area it sites in needs to be clean. I made a post about what my SGP did on a setting of one. Might help the OP as I'll bet the bits are more or less the same. I backed it off by 1 setting coarser but it looks like it may need another one. I can't see myself ever using a setting of 1 though.

When some one told him that the adjustments were just for wear my response was rather polite. It amazes me that people think that several items can be made and put together that accurately but then I am an engineer. From what I have read if it was a Mazer there would be suggestions about how to adjust it. Why should Sage be any different unless they set each one individually. I don't think too much chirping from a conical burr would be a good idea though so best go carefully.

John

-


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## Jinsin456

ajohn said:


> The only thing that might be wrong is the grinder burr setting or maybe no definite click when the burr was replaced and locked home. The area it sites in needs to be clean. I made a post about what my SGP did on a setting of one. Might help the OP as I'll bet the bits are more or less the same. I backed it off by 1 setting coarser but it looks like it may need another one. I can't see myself ever using a setting of 1 though.
> 
> When some one told him that the adjustments were just for wear my response was rather polite. It amazes me that people think that several items can be made and put together that accurately but then I am an engineer. From what I have read if it was a Mazer there would be suggestions about how to adjust it. Why should Sage be any different unless they set each one individually. I don't think too much chirping from a conical burr would be a good idea though so best go carefully.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I appreciate the adjustability but to be honest I'm rather shocked that this came out of the factory so far out. Someone has measured the change when the burr is changed manually and it's 0.1mm, I've had to change my grinder down from 6 to probably 2 so that means that the grinder has been 0.4mm. I'm also an engineer and to me 0.4mm is huge.

Providing Rave are good beans I still don't think I should be this far down the scale. I cold understand if I was using Supermarket beans but I'm sticking to the guidelines and using fresh, good quality beans and still not getting the results I should be getting imho.


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## ajohn

Plastic, holes tapers in chunks of metal, a spindle, mountings, alignment etc. There is plenty of scope for errors and it's not unusual for companies to pass that onto the customer. If china is involved it also isn't that unusual for things to drift more, even elsewhere sometimes ad parts often have to be delivered on time. No one checks parts individually any more and how ever things are made sizes drift.

Sage state that each adjustment is 0.1mm. That gives some idea how closely they need to be adjusted. On my other post I am not sure that having a situation where a setting of 1 slows the motor down when it's all empty is a good idea. Maybe it should be opened another notch wider. As supplied a setting of 1 chirped, slowed the motor down and then started to slow it down even more increasingly as something warmed up. Given long enough the same thing might happen as it's currently set. Will I ever have to grind that fine though. Going on the beans I have used so far highly unlikely or even near it.

I'm pretty tolerant of this sort of thing due to what I did for a living so just got on and fixed it and may fix it some more if I think it's needed. I will be trying one setting coarser but I'm comparing the results with another grinder that has a different default setting. The results of the defaults adjusted as they currently are look to be pretty similar. Just what I would expect from a decent designer.

John

-


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## MWJB

Jinsin456 said:


> I appreciate the adjustability but to be honest I'm rather shocked that this came out of the factory so far out.
> 
> Providing Rave are good beans I still don't think I should be this far down the scale.


You do understand that these are totally arbitrary determinations on your part? Odd for an engineer, it's the drink you are meant to be engineering, not the machine.

The guidelines are simpler than you think...your burrs are rubbing, or your coffee is so fine you can't make a tasty shot, go coarser. Shots are sour & or under 20sec, grind finer. You can't expect a factory to second guess the roast level/solubility of the coffee you are going to buy.


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## Jinsin456

MWJB said:


> You do understand that these are totally arbitrary determinations on your part? Odd for an engineer, it's the drink you are meant to be engineering, not the machine.
> 
> The guidelines are simpler than you think...your burrs are rubbing, or your coffee is so fine you can't make a tasty shot, go coarser. Shots are sour & or under 20sec, grind finer. You can't expect a factory to second guess the roast level/solubility of the coffee you are going to buy.


I'm not even so much concerned about the grinding level of the machine now, it's the repeatability of it all. Yes the machine can grind fine enough to pour a good shot but it can't replicate this again on a shot poured straight after. That was what I was saying about a 25% difference. I tried a couple more shots before I left for work and they were nowhere near close to each other despite identical conditions.

The engineer in me states that if nothing changes on the input side then very little should change on the output. I appreciate there will be some variation on the output but 25% seams an awful lot to me.

Going by Sage's guidelines, the coffee is appearing after pre-infusion early and it's over extracting, it's turning yellow and becoming non-uniform and irratic which is leading to the over extraction. According to their videos, I either need to go finer or my beans are stale. My beans were roasted 8 days ago and have performed the same from day 4. Judging by what others have said Rave are a good supplier and as I've also said it's not the only brand of beans I've had in the machine and this has happened.

Nothing on the machine changed between shots and when it pours a perfect shot it looks how it's supposed to and conforms to what the Sage videos show happening ie. Coffee appearing after about 10 secs then 2 steady streams and a perfect volume. When it doesn't pour perfectly the coffee is coming after about 8 seconds and turning yellow and becoming erratic. Nothing has changed between shots and every piece of Sage literature says that the grind is too coarse now, despite being the same as the perfect shot.

I'm having total mixed feelings about this now, part of me wants to settle and thinks I am being too analytical but then the other part says that if I'm not going to get consistent results I would be as well going back to my Delonghi bean to cup and not thinking about it.


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## urbanbumpkin

MWJB said:


> The guidelines are simpler than you think...your burrs are rubbing, or your coffee is so fine you can't make a tasty shot, go coarser. Shots are sour & or under 20sec, grind finer. You can't expect a factory to second guess the roast level/solubility of the coffee you are going to buy.


Not knowing the Oracle. How many increments is it away from finest setting?

@ronsil what's your average espresso setting? Obviously grind setting vary depending on bean as some roasts prefer mega fine or much coarser but there is a usual suspects range for 75% of most bean.


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## Jinsin456

I think the digital range goes from 1 (Fine) to 45 (Coarse) but the top burr can be removed and I believe there are 10 increments on it which I've read count as 15 digital increments for each.

Sage recommend starting at 30 (digital) with the top burr being set at 6 by default from the factory, there are no guidelines in the manual to tell you to adjust the top burr.

My machine is now set at digital 5 and burrs at 3, going with each burr increment being 15 this means that digitally my machine is at about -40 and still seems to be grinding too coarse but only some of the time.

From looking online at what I can find most peoples machines are set between 10 and 20 for any given coffee and nobody has any complaints.


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## ronsil

urbanbumpkin said:


> Not knowing the Oracle. How many increments is it away from finest setting?
> 
> @ronsil what's your average espresso setting? Obviously grind setting vary depending on bean as some roasts prefer mega fine or much coarser but there is a usual suspects range for 75% of most bean.


See my post #4 in this thread.


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## urbanbumpkin

ronsil said:


> See my post #4 in this thread.


Cheers Ron so digital 11, what setting is your top bur at? 6?


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## ronsil

Top burr is as delivered at 6. For my dark style espresso I have never been set lower than 10 on the digital display.


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## urbanbumpkin

ronsil said:


> Top burr is as delivered at 6. For my dark style espresso I have never been set lower than 10 on the digital display.


Cheers Ron, so the going on the suggestion that each top burr setting is approx 15 then the OP's machine is approx 53 increments out compared to yours and the Op's settings appear to be way too fast still. It's way out compared to yours.

Try grinding on 1 digital and see what it comes back with.

I'm guessing this will still be too fast.

I still think Sage should take the machine back back


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## Jinsin456

urbanbumpkin said:


> Cheers Ron, so the going on the suggestion that each top burr setting is approx 15 then the OP's machine is approx 53 increments out compared to yours and the Op's settings appear to be way too fast still. It's way out compared to yours.
> 
> Try grinding on 1 digital and see what it comes back with.
> 
> I'm guessing this will still be too fast.
> 
> I still think Sage should take the machine back back


I'll try this tomorrow as I'm at work at the minute.

It's probably worth adding that I'm currently using the same beans as Ronsil albeit a bit younger but surely 2 weeks of a difference wouldn't equate to this much difference.


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## urbanbumpkin

Jinsin456 said:


> It's probably worth adding that I'm currently using the same beans as Ronsil albeit a bit younger but surely 2 weeks of a difference wouldn't equate to this much difference.


Correct, they shouldn't be out by that much.

The finest and the coarsest Espresso setting on my Major (since I've had it) are within 5 notches and that's including decaf. The majority are within 2 notches.

My Mignon was with a quarter of a turn.


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## ajohn

I have the analytical problem too. Unlike you I spent time and beans playing around and eventually had some success. Some info gained from asking about it on here helped further. Some didn't really. I did drink americano given a choice but switched to long blacks on the machine because it's quicker. I can run the water while I'm tamping. Shot size is irrelevant in some ways when these are being made. What matters is final taste and that is up to me. The other problem with that is what the machine is designed to do 30 and 60ml shots. Those figures are pretty standard and if the pressure gauge, dose and grind are right that is what comes out.

One thing that surprised me is how consistently a grinder with a simple timer driving it dosed. It will vary especially when a new bean is used but apart from that once it's settled down it rather consistent. From time to time it might need a small adjustment. I weighed lots of doses and then switched to the look of the puck once the grinder had settled. If you are experiencing wild variations you should see them there. What I partly use is an impression of the shower plate and also some signs of the bolt in the centre of that which holds it in place. If the signs of that are slight the puck will be on the wet side but still comes out pretty cleanly. Below that water will be visible. If the bolt shows clearly it might indicate that it's overfilled so need to back off a bit to check. Depending on the bean and what some one wants over filling may not be a good idea - not enough room for the dose to expand during infusion result less taste. Some grinds are probably sucked back into the machine at the end of the shot as well. Also when pucks are wet. IMHO the infusion time makes more difference to taste than anything else. The actual size of the total shot is less important. I use glass mugs so can easily see if that has changed much.

If things are off I get the impression at times that the machine interferes







I'm a D&D person so always wonder how things work. To be honest not sure but the BE is some what automated but not as much as yours. I sometimes get the impression that it tries for the correct sized shot except when things are way out. At the moment I am probably using something like 20 out for 9.3 in as people usually put it but I actually use a double shot. Infusion time around a slow count 100 to 105 with very very little coming out until the pressure starts to ramp so longer really. might reach 108. The BE seems to have 3 stages. Very low, higher slowly and then flat out. I have had other settings give a good drink but this one gives what they would call a more spicy taste to the drink. The 9.3g in needs to be constant otherwise the puck is messed up and the taste will change. The thing that changes the taste is the grind. The size of the shot is an end effect. I might try 1 or a 1/2 setting finer but it might stall the pump. I have stalled it with other beans.

Running a double through a single - it's my mouth and it's not difficult to try both. The famous lady American reviewer also mentions that sticking to the 30 secs isn't cast in stone and longer can be better. I worry more about the taste not how long it takes. Or the amount to a lesser extent.

From your last post it sounds like grinding and maybe tamping is a problem - heavier. Are you sure that the burr is fully locked home. Mine takes a bit of effort to get the click when it's rotated clockwise as it's put back in. Grinding sounds like it should be finer but have you checked the burr setting as I suggested. Well sort of suggested. The other aspect is the look of the puck. I believe real baristas are inclined to keep an eye on that and twitch the grind settings according to what they see. Sage don't give the capacity of your filter baskets. The BE's basket is stated as 15-18g on the double. Going on it's single 8 to 10 I would suspect that something under 18gm would be best. Probably 16 point a bit, maybe 17. There isn't really any reason why your larger baskets should hold more. I chased my tail for a while with too big a dose but while we were using preground up in a pressurised basket. Also did a bit of that with fresh beans, I then started using the "razor" they supply with most of there machines to set the level and knuckled down to get the numbers mentioned in the manual along with taste via the grinder settings. Then played around more once that was sorted and consistent. As some one suggested I tamped in different way - more or less as hard as I easily can. That helped too.

John

-


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## Jinsin456

I emailed John Lewis yesterday and told them exactly what was happening and they have said that it sounds like a fault and they are happy to exchange the machine.

I know this result will annoy a few people and I feel a bit funny about it however I gave it a last chance today and pulled 3 shots, 1 after the other then another 2 back to back about 2 hours later and they were all wildly different. There was probably 1 good shot in the entire 5 and the rest were overextracting and blonding really quickly. Out of the 5 the lowest weight was 38g and the highest was about 67g, these are not consistent results using identical parameters and there doesn't seem to be any pattern, ie. It's not overextracting the first shot then fine the next as if something needs to heat up or any other variables involved the all seem random.

The process was exactly the same for each, ran a shot through the empty portafiler, removed, dried and inserted into grinder, while grinding I pressed the double button and let the machine flush for about 10 seconds, removed portafilter and weighed, every time 22g +/- negligible (Can't remember exactly but they were all close), put portafilter into group head and hit the double button.

I'm happy with everything else about the machine hence why I am happy to exchange, I know it can grind fine enough for my chosen coffee albeit on this particular unit I had to change a lot but consistency seems to be the issue with this machine. I know it's not going to be perfect but it should be closer than what it is.


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## urbanbumpkin

Brilliant sounds like the best result. I can't see how anyone could be annoyed.

Let us know how you get on with the new one.


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## Jinsin456

urbanbumpkin said:


> Brilliant sounds like the best result. I can't see how anyone could be annoyed.
> 
> Let us know how you get on with the new one.


Should hopefully be picking it up on Saturday so I'll let everyone know how it goes.

Fingers crossed


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## Mrboots2u

I had an Oracle. It's a decent machine. It's isn't consistent in shot time to weight though are any of us? Do we all hit same weight same shot each time?

I hope the next machine solves your problems, just be realistic about what is can achieve or does.

As for judging the new machinw by early blonding this may be leading you down the wrong path.

Colour of a shot can be a function of origin and roast level.

How late or early should a shot blonde?

Machine doesn't over extract that's a function of coffee to water ratio and when you stop a shot.

I'm not saying this to be angry or critical, just to give some perspective form someone who used an oracle too and made a fair amount of espresso with it.


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## Jinsin456

I'm hoping the next machine solves the problem too.

I read your review of the Oracle btw and was used in my convincing the mrs that we 'needed' one









I'm not expecting precision results every time but it would be nice to get repeatable results there or there abouts. I appreciate that this is an entry level machine as far as home coffee machines can go but I still felt underwhelmed by it. Fingers crossed the next one is okay and it was a fault.


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## Tufty_B

I'm curious about the price of the beans that you are using, in a previous post you said you are purchasing Rave which is about £35 to £55, rather than Square mile which would work out about £90 a month (for 3kg). Personally I'd be wary of only paying the equivalent of £2.92 - £4.59 per 250g bag. I tried supermarket beans at this sort of price and higher, and had a devil of a job getting the grind fine enough on a Sage machine, eventually giving up on the cheap beans.

What are other forum members views on buying beans at the OP price point?


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## ajohn

Next time I'd suggest you stick with one bean. They vary. I just switched from a decaf that eventually produced a fair amount of crema back to monsooned malabar again which also does. Over 14 or so shots the timer on the grinder has moved from around 9/16 to 3/4 slowly







fractions of a turn on a BE. They could have put a scale on it but didn't. The reason for the change is a deposit of this particular bean building up in the griinder. The last lot of monsoon I had off a different supplier settled at about 5/8 of a turn. Both were dark roast but the new lot is slightly lighter and doesn't have any shine. Next week it might have some.

The shot size has also increased. It's much closer to 30ml now and has remained at that today. Dose weight is up now to 9.6gm. The puck was a little low prior to that. I could get the shot size down by grinding finer but if I do that I'll find the the pressure needed will increase. It's already rather high so to control that I'd have to reduce the weight of coffee. Say I went down to 9gm - I'd get wet pucks. Not too wet but at a level where the puck would tell me to add more coffee. I might get more flavour set up like that though. That might also cause the coffee to expand more.

Also if I made the grind finer I might find a bit of water left on top of a solid puck.

I only use the double basket for my wife's flat whites. The built in 2 shot grinder adjustment falls a bit short but is still ok. If I was drinking I add a bit more coffee but a 400ml long black is plenty for me. That's 13 fluid ozs in USA terms. The flow rates through the 2 shot basket also seems to differ from the 1 shot basket. It tends to increase the weight of the shot more than it should. If I drank milkies I'd need a triple shot or maybe use the double twice with a fresh load in it.








That as I see it is the wonderful world of espresso machines.

I'm wondering if you should buy the razor tool for the dual boiler model so that you can get a clear idea of what the filter basket fill level should be. I doubt if your machine came with one. On the BE it sets the level 1/4" below the rim of the basket.







It's imperial. It is possible to get more in that will do what it should do as the water goes in but not much. At some point it gets harder to put the portafilter on because the coffee is rubbing on the shower screen. Up to you but it does remove a variable and is a good place to start.







I did start using it eventually. I should have done so a lot sooner really.

John

-


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## Jinsin456

Tufty_B said:


> I'm curious about the price of the beans that you are using, in a previous post you said you are purchasing Rave which is about £35 to £55, rather than Square mile which would work out about £90 a month (for 3kg). Personally I'd be wary of only paying the equivalent of £2.92 - £4.59 per 250g bag. I tried supermarket beans at this sort of price and higher, and had a devil of a job getting the grind fine enough on a Sage machine, eventually giving up on the cheap beans.
> 
> What are other forum members views on buying beans at the OP price point?


I'm using Rave coffee which is a decent coffee going with what's been said on here. The same SO has been used successfully on an Oracle too.

With Rave, the price drops when you buy in bulk so the SO I'm using at the moment is £5.25 for 250g or £16.50 per kg. We are using about 1kg every 10 days so I would have to buy a 250g bag every 2 - 3 days so buying a couple of kgs at a time for free postage seems the most cost effective way to do it.


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## Jinsin456

ajohn said:


> Next time I'd suggest you stick with one bean. They vary. I just switched from a decaf that eventually produced a fair amount of crema back to monsooned malabar again which also does. Over 14 or so shots the timer on the grinder has moved from around 9/16 to 3/4 slowly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> fractions of a turn on a BE. They could have put a scale on it but didn't. The reason for the change is a deposit of this particular bean building up in the griinder. The last lot of monsoon I had off a different supplier settled at about 5/8 of a turn. Both were dark roast but the new lot is slightly lighter and doesn't have any shine. Next week it might have some.
> 
> The shot size has also increased. It's much closer to 30ml now and has remained at that today. Dose weight is up now to 9.6gm. The puck was a little low prior to that. I could get the shot size down by grinding finer but if I do that I'll find the the pressure needed will increase. It's already rather high so to control that I'd have to reduce the weight of coffee. Say I went down to 9gm - I'd get wet pucks. Not too wet but at a level where the puck would tell me to add more coffee. I might get more flavour set up like that though. That might also cause the coffee to expand more.
> 
> Also if I made the grind finer I might find a bit of water left on top of a solid puck.
> 
> I only use the double basket for my wife's flat whites. The built in 2 shot grinder adjustment falls a bit short but is still ok. If I was drinking I add a bit more coffee but a 400ml long black is plenty for me. That's 13 fluid ozs in USA terms. The flow rates through the 2 shot basket also seems to differ from the 1 shot basket. It tends to increase the weight of the shot more than it should. If I drank milkies I'd need a triple shot or maybe use the double twice with a fresh load in it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> That as I see it is the wonderful world of espresso machines.
> 
> I'm wondering if you should buy the razor tool for the dual boiler model so that you can get a clear idea of what the filter basket fill level should be. I doubt if your machine came with one. On the BE it sets the level 1/4" below the rim of the basket.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's imperial. It is possible to get more in that will do what it should do as the water goes in but not much. At some point it gets harder to put the portafilter on because the coffee is rubbing on the shower screen. Up to you but it does remove a variable and is a good place to start.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I did start using it eventually. I should have done so a lot sooner really.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I had originally planned to stick with one bean but when I was getting the poor results originally from the Italian job I assumed it wad because it was a blend so that's why I switch to a SO to see if that made any difference but it didn't.

Due to the built in grinder and tamper it's pretty difficult to change anything on the Oracle with regards to grind, the dose is fixed and can't be easily adjusted. I don't think the razor tool would really tell me too much and even then it would be a bit of a nightmare to adjust. I've been going on weight of dose as logic dictates it's going to tamp to the same pressure so if the weight is correct then the hap should be OK. I'm happy with the pucks they're dry and have the imprint of the shower head and are coming out whole. I can measure the gap between the tapped grounds and top of the basket to see if it is in fact 0.25"


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## Jinsin456

So, got my replacement oracle yesterday and I'm pretty confident to say the first one was defective.

Same beans in the new one are coming out with a grind setting of 22 (haven't touched the top burr) amd shots are a lot more consistent. 6 shots in and ranging from 40 - 50g in 30 seconds or 44g in 27 - 31 seconds if I'm doing it manually.

Very happy now. Even with young beans it seems to be coming a lot better. Got another bag of SO roasted on the 10th, was planning to hold onto these a bit but ran out of the others, and it's every so slightly fast but I have a lot more to spare on the grinder now to compensate for this


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## urbanbumpkin

Does it taste better too?


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## Jinsin456

urbanbumpkin said:


> Does it taste better too?


A good shot is pretty much identical to what it was from the old machine but I seem to be getting consistently good shots from this machine with minimal input from myself as opposed to about 1 in 5. The speed seems to be pretty constant but the yield varies which I was expecting.


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## ajohn

I mentioned that my yield on my BE had changed. It turned out that some how the brew water temperature had gone to the low setting. I had in on high. Putting it back on high made rather large difference. Things then get better or worse depending on how you look at it. If the machine hadn't been used for a while I always ran a shot through the portafilter to warm it and other parts up. I had noticed that if I did 2 coffees on the trot that the extraction on the 2nd was better and that the shot size was reduced as well. So now I run the blank shot through a pressurised filter basket which causes the water to flow though a lot more slowly and heats the portafilter up a lot more. Then 2 real shots run one after the other are now more or less the same.

There isn't much metal in a BE's group head so most of the heating up effects must be down to the portafilter. I believe you have a heated group head but aren't sure. Machines vary and some just use convection from the boiler. The idea seems to be to leave the portafilter in while things heat up completely. Times vary but I've seen some that people reckon take 1/2hr or more. Running water through the entire group helps reduce the time. Not a bad idea anyway as it helps keep the shower screen clean. Getting it all hot might help you get more consistent shots.

John

-


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## Mrboots2u

An oracle should be up to temp v quickly. It doesn't have an e61 brew head to heat up. It has some kinda thermocoil to get it up to temp. Unsure on the Be, it may be similar. Thirty mins is a heat up time for your traditional machine with a lump of metal in it.


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## ajohn

The BE has nothing to heat the portafilter at all really. Not sure what the Oracle does but it is probably worth checking that the business end of the portafilter is too hot to touch - way too hot going on some ideas I came across.

The machine I mentioned that took a long long time mentioned the words thermo syphon if I remember correctly. Probably means a water passage in the group back to the boiler. The Piccino mounts the boiler directly on the group head. There are probably lots of arrangements.

John

-


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## Mrboots2u

Oracle

Triple Heat System:

1. Dedicated steam boiler with integrated Heat Exchange aids thermal stability

2. Dedicated espresso boiler with Digital PID control delivers precise water temperature

3. Heated group head - PID controlled embedded element maintains thermal stability

Heated group head warms up quicket


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## Mrboots2u

With the be the group should be ready in a minute. The integrated thermocoil do es this. The pf may sink some of that heat tho. Same with Oracle. Running some water through the pf would help.


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## urbanbumpkin

Yep, the oracle is the same as the Sage DB it has a heated group.


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## Jinsin456

My routine now is that I run a full shot through the empty portafilter into my cup when I start the machine, this way I warm up the cup and the portafilter. By the time I've ground the beans and purged the grouphead everything is nice and warm for me making a shot.


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## Jinsin456

Thought I would update this thread after a few weeks and I am very happy to say that the replacement Oracle is doing a great job.

Grinder is now set between 16 and 20 full time now and making great consistent shots. I'm now getting 1:2 for every shot and it's only varying by a few seconds every time but most of the time it's bang on the 30 sec mark.

Thanks again to everyone who helped me with this issue


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