# Help a novice Improve.



## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Hi Guys.

For some reason my espressos taste leaves a lot to be desired.

I'm starting to think my skills must be the issue.

I was hoping a few of you may watch the video and see where I'm going wrong.

These are fresh Hasbeen eclipse beans roasted on the 8th Sep.

I have rancilio and mignon set up

My water is 1/2 Volvic 1/2 Waitrose essential

I am using the 'temp surf' method to get right temperature until I get my PID

I also only using a fork to 'WDT' my beans.

Also using a VST 18G basket.

My final result is a bitter tasting drink. I'm sure it should taste better than this. For this video I've attempted a 36g end result (ended up 38g) but even if I hit exactly 36 g the taste is the same.

I've tried to show on video the grind to see if this can be improved.

Any tips much appreciated, starting to get the better of me this shot lark!!!!!

Thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What coffee are you using?

Is it bitter?

Acidic?

Have you tried changing the brew ratio based on the imbalance in the cup.

1:2 is no magic bullet to tasty, just a starting point.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GaryG said:


> Any tips much appreciated, starting to get the better of me this shot lark!!!!!
> 
> Thanks


Some of your 18g dose was still on the scales & counter top, when you put the PF in the machine. Try using a cut down yogurt pot, or dosing collar & maybe grind into a receptacle with a narrower opening.

A couple of taps downwards with the PF on a mat & on the side of the basket with your hand should be enough to level the bed before tamping.

Tamping - in straight, press down with enough force to compress the puck, stop & remove. No tapping with the tamper, no wiggling, no bearing down on the PF. Aren't those scales a bit pricey to be tamping on?

What happens if you let the shot run to 54g?


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Some of your 18g dose was still on the scales & counter top, when you put the PF in the machine. Try using a cut down yogurt pot, or dosing collar & maybe grind into a receptacle with a narrower opening.
> 
> A couple of taps downwards with the PF on a mat & on the side of the basket with your hand should be enough to level the bed before tamping.
> 
> ...


I was trying to keep video time down so I maybe rushed slightly usually I don't make such a mess!

I'll try tamping slightly better. Again I don't usually tamp in the scales but seemed best place to do it inside of the video frame 

I'll try going to 54g I have tried 45g and to be honest the taste is not massively different. It's still bitter maybe not so intense

I'll also start the yoghurt pot cutting too !


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> What coffee are you using?
> 
> Is it bitter?
> 
> ...


Yes bitter is what I think I'm getting from the cup.

Beans are Hasbeen elclipse rostaed on 8th sep.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GaryG said:


> I'll try going to 54g I have tried 45g and to be honest the taste is not massively different. It's still bitter maybe not so intense .


Was this at the same grind, what was the time?

That reminds me, a reference to grind setting would be good.


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Was this at the same grind, what was the time?
> 
> That reminds me, a reference to grind setting would be good.












Same grind. Maybe another 5 seconds from 36g

With the dial. If I went around again to the 4 the burrs hit each other


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## icom102 (Aug 7, 2017)

Why don't you try putting in less beans ? i was dosing 16 grams and was bitter lowered that to 14 g and a lot better


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

icom102 said:


> Why don't you try putting in less beans ? i was dosing 16 grams and was bitter lowered that to 14 g and a lot better


Basket is rated +/- 1g.


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Basket is rated +/- 1g.


Maybe try 19g and 17g ???


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## icom102 (Aug 7, 2017)

what does +/- 1g mean ?


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

icom102 said:


> what does +/- 1g mean ?


Plus or minus 1 gram


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

icom102 said:


> Why don't you try putting in less beans ? i was dosing 16 grams and was bitter lowered that to 14 g and a lot better


Your changing your brew ratio, by decreasing the amount of coffee used to the amount of water. Or perhaps not, as I have no idea if you weigh out but this can also be achieved by also changing the amoint of water used.

I used to use Dose in tolerance basket and then to regulate size of drink required.

Too little or much in a specific basket can lead to channeling and in tastyness.


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Your changing your brew ratio, by decreasing the amount of coffee used to the amount of water. Or perhaps not, as I have no idea if you weigh out but this can also be achieved by also changing the amoint of water used.
> 
> I used to use Dose in tolerance basket and then to regulate size of drink required.
> 
> Too little or much in a specific basket can lead to channeling and in tastyness.


I think I understand what your saying.

Currently I use 18g and then have either 36/45/52g output (just for instance)

And work out taste difference between them?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GaryG said:


> I think I understand what your saying.
> 
> Currently I use 18g and then have either 36/45/52g output (just for instance)
> 
> And work out taste difference between them?


A good idea.

The shorter shots will be stronger the longer ones weaker.

You can go under 1:2 also.


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## icom102 (Aug 7, 2017)

how do i know what size my double basket is?


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

icom102 said:


> how do i know what size my double basket is?


A vst is a specific basket. That's what I'm. Using its different than a standard one


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> A good idea.
> 
> The shorter shots will be stronger the longer ones weaker.
> 
> You can go under 1:2 also.


Perfect I'll try a shorter ratio too


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

the shot in the video looks actually pretty good, not perfect but okay, I would suggest to perfect the grinding and distribution bit. IMO, the workflow should be - weight the beans and drop into the grinder, take the portafilter off, flush the grouphead, dry the basket, grind the beans directly into it using some king of dosing cylinder, distribute (WDT, LDT or whatever you like) and tamp. But OMG do not tamp on the scales! Unless you don't mind getting a new set soon.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Buy an ice hockey Puck .

Try and cut down your steps from grind to tamp , tapping the portafiter side with the tamper is likely to cause cracks .

personaly I would grind directly into the portafilter and then using a PF funnel mix your grind with small whisk or similar .

Taking time to get distribution right before tamping is the key .

these are just my opinions , top marks for posting video


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Buy an ice hockey Puck .
> 
> Try and cut down your steps from grind to tamp , tapping the portafiter side with the tamper is likely to cause cracks .
> 
> ...


Thanks. I'll try that

Funnel ordered and a new WDT wishing tool on route too


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

GaryG said:


> Thanks. I'll try that
> 
> Funnel ordered and a new WDT wishing tool on route too


wishing tool Very apt typo


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## prankard (Aug 24, 2014)

Hey there,

By all means, I'm not a professional, but am an enthusiast. I've had my Silvia for many years and am happy to share what I have learned.

Espresso is not what I normally drink (I add milk and it's much more forgiving) so can prove to be a challenge.

In your video, there are a couple of bad aspects in preparing the grounds with coffee distribution, but actually the shot appears to pull though without channelling or sprites.

Next time, if you can get a good overview of the underside at the beginning of the extraction.

Here is good video of coffee distribution:






Although you don't have to follow his technique, what he is saying at the beginning is true about distribution being the entire process of grounds falling into coffee basket.

So in your video, I would guess WDT should be applied after it's in the basket. I see you've ordered a tool, but when doing WDT I simply use a bobby pin as it has nice rounded tips which don't scratch the portafilter.

Also when you use your knife to level off the espresso grounds. You pat the grounds a little, which can lead to inconsistencies.

You also tap the side of the grounds after tamping slightly which could lead to making cracks in the puck.

There are many techniques for distribution, I'll leave you on your own for that. In my opinion, it's easier for me grind straight into portafilter basket weight that, then sort out the grounds with WDT or other technique.

Going back to the flavour of the coffee. I think the coffee is going blonde too soon for too long.

To fix this, you do any of the following:

- Up the coffee quantity

- Make the grind finer

- Reduce the amount of output

I would try making a 30g shot (instead of 40g), but in doing this your extraction time will be shorter. So up the grind slightly to make the slower water come out slower.

This should make the coffee tarter and more sweet (and less bitter).

Good luck and have fun!


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## GaryG (Mar 1, 2013)

prankard said:


> Hey there,
> 
> By all means, I'm not a professional, but am an enthusiast. I've had my Silvia for many years and am happy to share what I have learned.
> 
> ...


For some reason I've only just seen this post.

I will try a 30g shot tomorrow. In the meantime

I have added a new video in this post

Help a novice improve (part 2)

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=6813&share_tid=40682&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D40682&share_type=thttps://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?share_fid=6813&share_tid=40682&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D40682&share_type=t


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## Lewis. (Sep 8, 2014)

Re: that video on distribution, rather than using the tamper to tap it and level it he just uses the holder on the machine instead to create the same effect as tapping the side with the tamper! The coffee falls into the tamper in the same way from the grinder without 'guiding' it in, so that method seems no different to tapping the side with your tamper (which is what I do and works for me!)

I do think there is a lot of nonsense regarding the preparation of coffee. While a method and process is important. Some of these 'revised' methods as above are literally the same thing done in a different way. While it's true that channeling is bad, tapping before tamping always levels it out before you compress the puck. Works for me! But hey what do I know.

To add, the best bit of kit I bought to improve my espresso shots was a mazzer grinder and good coffee beans. The corseness of the grind and quality of bean you use makes a big difference. We get our beans from pact and they're always pretty good.


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