# Minima leak



## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

Hi

My Minima has developed a leak at the connection of the elbow on the steam connection when the service boiler is on.

Please can you give me some advice on how to fix this issue - assume I have limited knowledge so I would appreciate detailed guidance.

Many thanks

Nick


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Looks like, not sure a seal and and some plumbing tape, I'm sure dave or someone else will know more, and looks like a bit off flat that connection


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@El carajillo ^^ @Rob1 ^^ @DavecUK

-

happy new year!


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

Does anyone know which way the nut turns on the left hand side of the elbow in the picture?

Assuming I am looking at it head on from the front of the machine - undo clockwise or anti-clockwise?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

As far as I know, you turn the nut anti clockwise, I THINK.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

So I assume I need to unscrew the chromed nut on the outside of the machine as well to give enough play?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

njlhyde said:


> So I assume I need to unscrew the chromed nut on the outside of the machine as well to give enough play?


 I'll let others help you here as I don't know much about this sort of thing.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @El carajillo ^^ @Rob1 ^^ @DavecUK
> 
> -
> 
> happy new year!


 Happy new year to you too.

Already responded yesterday via PM.



> Usually you'd tighten the outside against the inside, basically hold the outside with one wrench and gently tighten the inside with another or vice versa. As it's leaking from the inside you'll probably want to tighten inside and hold outside. Don't use a lot of force it'll probably just need nipping up a bit.
> 
> There looks to be a bit of scale/residue on the edge of that connector...
> 
> Send DaveC a message to be sure I've advised right.


 It might be best to undo it and put it back on again.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> It might be best to undo it and put it back on again.


Thanks Rob

Wasn't sure which way to turn each of the nuts - inside and out.

Does the inside nut (against the case) tighten on to the elbow or the case?

What is the best way to access the nuts inside?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Hold the nut with the arrow still and turn the elbow anticlockwise.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Hold the nut with the arrow still and turn the elbow anticlockwise.


Anti-clockwise looking at the front of the case?
Is this to tighten or un-tighten?

What about access?
I can take off the PID display and case but not sure what else to do


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

@DavecUK, Is that a flange between the 2 nuts ? would it be better to release the nut on the copper pipe and release the elbow completely and apply fresh PTFE to the thread and refit to the appropriate angle ??


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

El carajillo said:


> @DavecUK, Is that a flange between the 2 nuts ? would it be better to release the nut on the copper pipe and release the elbow completely and apply fresh PTFE to the thread and refit to the appropriate angle ??


 Yes, but I already mentioned that to the original poster in a pm when I was initially contacted this morning.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The pipe needs to be removed from the elbow, you may have to undo the fitting out of shot unless there is enough movement to withdraw the fitting.

Then the elbow needs to be unscrewed from the boiler fitting, you can see the two flats on the elbow for a spanner. Use a spanner on the other side to stop the fitting unscrewing from the boiler. Use open ended spanners.


View attachment 50386


Place PTFE tape around the threads of the boiler fitting so that the elbow is tight to screw back (not super super tight and finish when it's in the upright position NOT screwed all the way in, or the PTFE won'e work.

You may have to remove one boiler to do this....I would also suggest you make a forum post so others can chip in.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

I think that I will attempt this tomorrow.

Here's what I have learnt

Remove the copper pipe from the top of the elbow.

Unscrew the elbow, whilst holding the nut. Apply PTFE tape and refit back to the original orientation.

I definitely need to remove the PID display and probably the other end of the copper pipe on the top of the boiler. I will also need to unplug and move the level probe arm.

I really hope it doesn't get more complex than that 

Any further suggestions?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Take some photos with your phone, this will act as a reference as to exact positions and any connections you remove.

Hold the nut on the boiler completely static, if you disturb it you may break the seal and cause it to weep / leak.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Is the elbow and nut one piece? I've never had cause to check...


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

How old is the machine. The minima is on my shortlist.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> How old is the machine. The minima is on my shortlist.


 I don't think it's age related really, maybe over a bit of time heating and cooling it's got worse especially if scale is involved. I think the leak was likely there from the start. It seems to be a common thing in all machines (fixtures with small drip leaks, whether steam, hot water or group thermosuphons on the front or on boilers), well maybe the technical fault threads represent a very small percentage of sales but you get what I mean. It's good to check every machine on arrival for tiny leaks like this but they can be hard to spot, especially if they only weep as the machine heats up or cools down. I had a small leak on the solenoid of my old expobar that didn't show itself easily and a weeping leak only under certain conditions on the top of the minima brew boiler from the pressure gauge fixture that I didn't notice for weeks because the water would quickly evaporate from the top. Both just needed a tiny little tightening up.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

The machine is 2 months old and only noticed recently because I left the service boiler on - usually have on just for warming milk and then off.

This machine is ace and don't let small problems like this put you off. It performs well above its price point and just makes sense once you have owned it for a while.

Having to do a small repair is very daunting for me but I need to get to know and handle the machine for the future. The components are solid but this is just one of those things.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Is the elbow and nut one piece? I've never had cause to check...


I think they are separate but guess I'll find out tomorrow


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> The pipe needs to be removed from the elbow, you may have to undo the fitting out of shot unless there is enough movement to withdraw the fitting.
> Then the elbow needs to be unscrewed from the boiler fitting, you can see the two flats on the elbow for a spanner. Use a spanner on the other side to stop the fitting unscrewing from the boiler. Use open ended spanners.
> <img alt="elbow.JPG.06e3708832d747a06740fd80f21b572d.JPG" data-fileid="50386" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/elbow.JPG.06e3708832d747a06740fd80f21b572d.JPG" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">
> Place PTFE tape around the threads of the boiler fitting so that the elbow is tight to screw back (not super super tight and finish when it's in the upright position NOT screwed all the way in, or the PTFE won'e work.
> You may have to remove one boiler to do this....I would also suggest you make a forum post so others can chip in.


If I undo the chromed nut on the other side of the case and then disconnect the copper pipe from the top of the boiler, will it allow me to take the pipe and elbow out of the machine.

I'm thinking this will allow me to fix the issue outside of the machine.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

njlhyde said:


> If I undo the chromed nut on the other side of the case and then disconnect the copper pipe from the top of the boiler, will it allow me to take the pipe and elbow out of the machine.
> 
> I'm thinking this will allow me to fix the issue outside of the machine.


 Not sure which chromed nut you are referring to, if you can release the brass nut on the copper pipe and release the other end of the copper pipe to allow you to lift the pipe out of the elbow, this will allow you to rotate the elbow off the fitting. ( the fitting looks like a double ended 'nipple' ie threaded on each end with a nut formed in the middle,

As Dave already mentioned , hold the nut and rotate the elbow by applying a spanner to the ''FLATS'' on the elbow (they form an L shape in the photo.

Can you post a larger photo encompassing more of the layout


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

El carajillo said:


> Not sure which chromed nut you are referring to, if you can release the brass nut on the copper pipe and release the other end of the copper pipe to allow you to lift the pipe out of the elbow, this will allow you to rotate the elbow off the fitting. ( the fitting looks like a double ended 'nipple' ie threaded on each end with a nut formed in the middle,
> As Dave already mentioned , hold the nut and rotate the elbow by applying a spanner to the ''FLATS'' on the elbow (they form an L shape in the photo.
> Can you post a larger photo encompassing more of the layout


Access is my issue.
I can remove the PID controller and case but there is limited access to the end of the copper pipe and elbow.

I was wondering if I could unscrew the steam attachment it would release the inside fittings. In the photo it would be the chrome nut on the steam pipe against the front of the case.

I don't really want to be disconnecting the service boiler if I don't have to.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

I cannot see the nut but presume it is the one feeding / retaining the the steam valve ? , no reason not to remove it if it aids access. Try not to bend any copper pipe as they can be difficult to realign.

One tip for applying the PTFE, wind some tape onto a 'stub' of pencil, this is far easier to manipulate and needs less access / space


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

For the service boiler, it may be just undoing any copper fittings (2), loosening the retaining bolds underneath and moving it out of the way a bit, you may not have to even remove the temp probe.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> For the service boiler, it may be just undoing any copper fittings (2), loosening the retaining bolds underneath and moving it out of the way a bit, you may not have to even remove the temp probe.


Any chance of a picture of your Minima to show me?

Would I need to drain the boilers/ put the machine on it side etc.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

El carajillo said:


> I cannot see the nut but presume it is the one feeding / retaining the the steam valve ? , no reason not to remove it if it aids access. Try not to bend any copper pipe as they can be difficult to realign.
> One tip for applying the PTFE, wind some tape onto a 'stub' of pencil, this is far easier to manipulate and needs less access / space


In the picture the steam valve is on the lower right.
I was referring to the nut against the case.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

There is a nut behind the steam valve that holds the whole valve in place...as i said before, don't remove it, don't let it move when you undo the elbow. I only saw the other photos recently, the close up mystery photo made it look as if it was a fitting on the boiler...where my advice not to let it move was still good. Now I realise it's the back of the steam knob.

*To drain the service boiler, simply heat up the machine, switch off...open the water tap and drain out as much as you can.....there won't be a huge amount left in the boiler after that...when disconnecting fittings at the bottom e.g., the water pipe, stick a towel underneath to soak up what comes out.*

I can't show you anything you can't see yourself. 3 securing posts at the bottom and some pipes to the boiler, either both copper or PTFE and copper (remove these first). Remove anything that's not flexible e.g. the probe wires can be un cable tied and will allow the boiler considerable movement. Then move the boiler out of the way if you can (you might need to pull spade connectors off of heating elements....wedge it upright with a towel and see if you can reach everything. If not disconnect the probe wires at the connector box (don't bother unscrewing probe), disconnect limit stat wires and remove the boiler.

It's really not that hard, step by step and work carefully.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> There is a nut behind the steam valve that holds the whole valve in place...as i said before, don't remove it, don't let it move when you undo the elbow. I only saw the other photos recently, the close up mystery photo made it look as if it was a fitting on the boiler...where my advice not to let it move was still good. Now I realise it's the back of the steam knob.
> *To drain the service boiler, simply heat up the machine, switch off...open the water tap and drain out as much as you can.....there won't be a huge amount left in the boiler after that...when disconnecting fittings at the bottom e.g., the water pipe, stick a towel underneath to soak up what comes out.*
> I can't show you anything you can't see yourself. 3 securing posts at the bottom and some pipes to the boiler, either both copper or PTFE and copper (remove these first). Remove anything that's not flexible e.g. the probe wires can be un cable tied and will allow the boiler considerable movement. Then move the boiler out of the way if you can (you might need to pull spade connectors off of heating elements....wedge it upright with a towel and see if you can reach everything. If not disconnect the probe wires at the connector box (don't bother unscrewing probe), disconnect limit stat wires and remove the boiler.
> It's really not that hard, step by step and work carefully.


Thanks Dave
Just makes me feel like a monkey with a scalpel about to attempt brain surgery.

Will flush out the steam boiler tonight and cool down for tomorrow.

Do I need to PTFE any other of the other fittings I undo?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

non of the copper ones with the compressiony bit in them, PTFE tape can make them leak. No PTFE on any PTFE tube to elbow fittings. Anything with a coarse thread where the thread is forming the actual seal, usually 5-7 turns does it. It must be tight all the way in but not over tight. When using PTFE don't tighten fully, it's not necessary and it's why you will be able to get that elbow pointing the right way (don't turn back if you go too far though, it will just probably leak).

Wrap the tape around the threads in the right direction...it's more like Meccano than brain surgery.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> non of the copper ones with the compressiony bit in them, PTFE tape can make them leak. No PTFE on any PTFE tube to elbow fittings. Anything with a coarse thread where the thread is forming the actual seal, usually 5-7 turns does it. It must be tight all the way in but not over tight. When using PTFE don't tighten fully, it's not necessary and it's why you will be able to get that elbow pointing the right way (don't turn back if you go too far though, it will just probably leak).
> Wrap the tape around the threads in the right direction...it's more like Meccano than brain surgery.


Hi Dave
Managed to get to the elbow and move the boiler but the elbow was extremely still and using the adjustable grips to rotate the elbow I think I have inadvertently crushed the thread on the elbow.
What do I do now?


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

njlhyde said:


> Hi Dave
> Managed to get to the elbow and move the boiler but the elbow was extremely still and using the adjustable grips to rotate the elbow I think I have inadvertently crushed the thread on the elbow.
> What do I do now?<img alt="IMG_0592.thumb.jpg.527c96b2c21d4297845ccc04c6d48c65.jpg" data-fileid="50502" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/IMG_0592.thumb.jpg.527c96b2c21d4297845ccc04c6d48c65.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

njlhyde said:


> <img alt="IMG_0593.thumb.jpg.7e5699e0e0c3b57e92c586dff2b2a735.jpg" data-fileid="50503" data-src="<fileStore.core_Attachment>/monthly_2021_01/IMG_0593.thumb.jpg.7e5699e0e0c3b57e92c586dff2b2a735.jpg" src="https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png">


Edit: elbow extremely stiff not still


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Buy a new elbow...I think I used the keywords, open-ended spanners and flats of the elbow. Those flat areas on the corner are where you put the jaws of a spanner.

*They are a penny part, but probably a ball ache to get hold of and of course there is postage!*

Those JCB wrench things might be alright for some jobs (not many), but not really right for coffee machines. Get this set, takes you from 6mm to 22mm, I always buy open-ended spanners because they are more versatile. If you're going to have one set, make them open-ended, bigger size range for less spanners too.

Spanner Set

I realise things can be stiff...often an open ended on the flats, and sharp raps with a small hammer (like a panel pin hammer) is the way to break the thread sealant without causing huge damage. Don't belt it with the hammer, the idea is to give very sharp knocks without huge weight behind them to shock it loose. I just checked my spares and unfortunately, I don't have any of those elbow fittings at all, otherwise I would have sent you one.


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

Thanks Dave

Lesson learned but proud that I managed to do what I did and confident that I should be able to put it back together.

Do you happen to know the exact description and thread sizes for the elbow so I can find one - or even a link that I can use.

I don't know how much they vary and wouldn't want to get the wrong one.

Just for reference- would the joint in the picture be a compression joint ie no tape.

Is the copper looking stuff in the next picture thread weld?


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

No it is pipe sealant. OR thread lock


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

El carajillo said:


> No it is pipe sealant.


 To check the thread size, measure the male thread size in inches. , deduct 1/4 '' this will be the size you require ie. 3/4'' o/a. minus a 1/4'' = 1/2'' eg

yours could be 1/8'' or 1/4'' most likely if they are BSP, measure and check


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

El carajillo said:


> To check the thread size, measure the male thread size in inches.  , deduct 1/4 '' this will be the size you require ie. 3/4'' o/a. minus a 1/4'' = 1/2'' eg
> yours could be 1/8'' or 1/4'' most likely if they are BSP, measure and check


What would this be?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

The size is 1/4 inch for the elbow fitting


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

njlhyde said:


> What would this be?
> View attachment 50515
> View attachment 50516
> View attachment 50517
> ...


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## njlhyde (Feb 17, 2020)

Update to this thread.
I have successfully repaired the leak inside. The seal wasn't sufficient on the thread going into the elbow joint. Just needed a little PTFE tape and it's dry as a bone.
It was a bit scary at first but once I got past the fear factor the machine is quite simple and easy to fix.
Like Dave said - Mechano not brain surgery. 
Many thanks Dave and those on this forum.


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