# Duo temp or barista express?



## jakebyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

Hi all. Just looking for some insider knowledge.

The other half has offered to put up some cash monthly to finance a new coffee machine for me. I used to have a Silvia a few years back so am well versed in the world of espresso prep and the inevitable machine and grinder upgrade virus.

After discussing things with the woman, she's happy to learn, and as a joint we've decided on the Sage stuff. Two options.

1. BE

2. DT and Smart Grinder Pro.

Bearing in mind that I also make cold brew every fortnight or so, I see that the separate grinder would be a nice commodity. However, the DTP only has a 1 year guarantee compared to the BE's two year, and a hand grinder could happily deal with the grind for my cold brew.

Unfortunately, Lakeland won't be an option as we've decided to finance things monthly through ao.com to free up some finances need for other things. (Car repairs and the like).

For those with some inside knowledge, I'd be interested to know your opinions, and why you'd go for which combo.

Thanks in advance!


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## Condyk (Jan 9, 2011)

I also looked at both of these and decided to go for the Barista, mainly on looks, space/tidiness and features. I was very happy with it. Worked well in all aspects, easy to set up and use, easy and sensible adjustment of grind/extraction. The grinder itself is decent and I had no cause to query its ability. Compared to say the Classic and Silva I specifically liked the water container size and built in filter. Just one less thing to fuss about. Clearly, these are differently priced machines but add in a half decent grinder then difference reduces. It's also a tidy set up so sits well in a standard kitchen and it's obviously all complete rather than separate bits. The two year guarantee is good and I'd say essential as they're pretty much non-repairable due to parts being unavailable, at least for we mere consumers. I can't find any parts availability in the UK for mine, which has a steam problem (it was a refurbished item!) Everything else still works great. Despite the problem I'd still recommend as a fuss free, decent home machine. Once set up it's easy for anyone to use, which may be important for some.


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## djedga (Apr 22, 2015)

jakebyrne said:


> Bearing in mind that I also make cold brew every fortnight or so, I see that the separate grinder would be a nice commodity.


I think you've summed it up pretty nicely.

I think I have read somewhere here that the BE grinder has only a small range of grind size adjustment more suited to espresso than anything else? I have no experience myself though.

Not sure what additional features the BE offers over the DTP or vice versa other than built in grinder?

So it then depends how much you might want to spend on the hand grinder and whether that investment would get you a better set up with separate grinder/machine.

Bear in mind with a separate grinder you then have the chance to upgrade grinder or machine next time and aren't forced to update both!...


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## frothycoffeeman (Oct 10, 2015)

jakebyrne said:


> Hi all. Just looking for some insider knowledge.
> 
> The other half has offered to put up some cash monthly to finance a new coffee machine for me. I used to have a Silvia a few years back so am well versed in the world of espresso prep and the inevitable machine and grinder upgrade virus.
> 
> ...


The grinder on the BE set for Espresso and that's it. Only other feature other than the three-way solenoid valve is the BE has adjustable PID temp settings. Other than that there's not much between the two. The Sage Pro grinder will suite your coffee needs better as it has alot more in the way of grind settings and is alot more programmable than the BE grinder and the top burr in the Pro has 10 more setting adjustments if needed. From what I have read people say the DTP with a separate grinder will produce better tasting coffee than the BE, but we are talking about a grinder higher up the food chain than the Pro. Both DTP and BE very capable machines and like all Sage Machines come ready to go out of the box in the way of accessories. I'am waiting atm on a bid for a nearly new DTP seeing I have the Pro grinder already. Oh on the side note of warranty. If your budget allows I think you can take out cover plans from AO. Or you can say what the hell and step up to the Dual Boiler(jk)







The only thing going for the BE is it's prob cheaper than a DTP and Grinder combo.


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## frothycoffeeman (Oct 10, 2015)

jakebyrne said:


> . However, the DTP only has a 1 year guarantee compared to the BE's two year


DTP has a 2 years Manufactures Warranty as all Sage Espresso Machines.


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## frothycoffeeman (Oct 10, 2015)

One more thing about the BE it has a pressure gauge which is a pointer if your tamping and grinding going in the right direction. Some say it's not important but seeing Rocket and other Top Espresso machine makers have it on their machines it's there as a another aid to help you get the most out of your shot pulling technique.


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## jakebyrne (Feb 22, 2015)

Having had experience with a Silvia, the pressure gauge won't be needed as I'll be running weights in and out.

I think I'm pretty set on the separates, and the other half seems ok with that too which is a bonus!!


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## frothycoffeeman (Oct 10, 2015)

jakebyrne said:


> Having had experience with a Silvia, the pressure gauge won't be needed as I'll be running weights in and out.
> 
> I think I'm pretty set on the separates, and the other half seems ok with that too which is a bonus!!


Sounds like you have a plan lol. The only feature on the BE that you cannot do on the DTP is the temperature increase or decrease on the PID. It may not be a big deal if you know you'll be sticking to a preferred bean, but may prove more useful if you are going to experiment with different roast types etc. Something I have to give serious thought to as I'am still new to all this myself and keen to try quite a wide range of beans and roast types. That's the only short coming of the DTP.


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## JimG (Nov 4, 2014)

I'm currently deciding between the Sage separates and a BE. Leaning towards a BE for 2 reasons, first, if I have too many choices my OCD paralysises me from making a decision! Secondly, my wife only drinks latte and I only tend to drink flat whites. If the grinder on the BE only caters for espresso then that suits.

Does that sound about right?


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## Condyk (Jan 9, 2011)

Yes.


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

Hi - did anyone actually come to a definitive answer on this one? Been asked for advice by a mate as to which way to go...Seems like both combinations can be had for more or less the same money at the moment.

Can someone explain, is the BE a better espresso machine with compromised grinder and the DTP and Grinder pro a compromised espresso machine with better grinder?

Thanks Philip


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

@Beeroclock

Hi I've went for a DTP and it's a good machine however they sent me a Barista Express by mistake. Personally I would say get a DTP and pick up a second hand good grinder on here for about £200-300. If you post in wanted topic, someone will have something.

The he grinder that comes with Barista Express is not that good imo. However it's better then my blade grinder or hand grinder as you don't have to sweat to get coffee grounds. Also I don't have much space on my kitchen worktop. So I am happy with what I've got. Also I wasn't allow to get a standalone grinder. Lol

the coffee machine side is also very good once you've got the hang of it. Pretty simple as my wife who's never used an espresso machine on her life could do it. Lol. You can customise the shorts to your liking although there are presets available. Milk steaming is also very good too. The only thin I find is skittle noisy when steaming/introducing air at the start. I'm practicing my latte arts at present.

lol anyway try to get at Lakeland if you can get them to price match. Go electrical is doing an extra 10 % off. Get the price and ring Lakeland. Good luck.

Mark


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## Condyk (Jan 9, 2011)

I haven't had issues with the grinder on mine and feel the quality is fine given the price. If you want a better grinder you can buy one easily enough, but doubt there's much cost/benefit unless you really do look at £300+ and you have the space in your kitchen for it. There's no correct answer for all; it's really about how much you want to pay for various levels of marginal gains. The extraction on mine has been very good and that's the point of a grinder, but I also think mine has been well set up and kept clean. I think these factors are very important with any machine.


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

@Condyk

Hi Dave, just wondering what grind setting do you use and where do you set the grind amount measure to? I've only had the machine for 10 days now. So any tips would be appreciated. cheers

mark


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## Condyk (Jan 9, 2011)

The thing with extraction is the setting will inevitably depend on your beans. When I ran my shop I kept constant watch over each shot I drew and would adjust the grinder a tad this way or that depending on things like humidity, ambient temperature, beans themselves in the hopper, or adding a new bag. They are sensitive souls.

On the settings at home it has depended on beans and I tend to get through at least three different beans each month or so. 'Generally' I'd say between 4 and 7 but that's no good to you or anyone, as the setting is so dependant on factors outlined. Really you need to experiment with the beans you have.

The good thing on the Sage is the front gauge helps you out. If you're getting a big crema then you're likely not that far out. It's also worth noting water temperature impacts a lot too. The worst so called 3rd wave coffee's I've ever had well both were way too hot. You could start with a calculation based on a double shot at say 6 on the grinder and see how it goes on the gauge and looking at it too as it extracts and timing it. If it's too fast or slow it'll show easy enough, so then adjust as needed. Around 25 secoind or so extraction is a start but it will depend. Whatever tastes right. You don't want sour or bitter ... but then some beans are more light/acidic and some are dark roast/bitter just to confuse things!!

The more beans you use the more of a faff it is to get right. At work I only had our house blend to worry about mainly and you get real sharp on the smallest changes to look and taste after pulling many 1000's of shots. At home when we're all messin' around and trying different beans then getting things A1 is more tricky.

Sorry that's not the easy answer you probably wanted. The potential in the machine is high and it's pretty easy to sort the extraction, but you just have to accept wastage is inevitable and it could take a while. But once sorted, so long as you use the same beans, then life gets easier.


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## MarkT (Nov 21, 2015)

Hi Dave,

many thanks for the advice. I do understand what you're saying as I've already found out the different beans cannot be used under the same setting. I was finishing off my Taylors beans and had the setting to grind 1 and 3 on the front dial and was getting a pretty shots on doubles.

Now I'm on Coffee Compass's Sweet Bourbon and it's over extracting on the pressure. Go way over to the top. I've got the grind setting to 4 now and still getting over extracted. Am I tamping too hard?

Will have to play around with the settings I guess. lol.


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## radam87 (Sep 27, 2017)

JimG said:


> I'm currently deciding between the Sage separates and a BE. Leaning towards a BE for 2 reasons, first, if I have too many choices my OCD paralysises me from making a decision! Secondly, my wife only drinks latte and I only tend to drink flat whites. If the grinder on the BE only caters for espresso then that suits.
> 
> Does that sound about right?


Did you get the BE? What was your experience with it?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I'm not so sure about comments on grinding range on Sage's grinders. They all have what might be called hidden adjustments that differ in detail but involve moving the top burr around. I know nothing about cold brewing but if it needs serious grinding adjustments I would bear in mind that they do take some time to set up for espresso. The grinder and the amount of coffee sets how long the initial infusion takes - probably one of the most important aspects. I'm finding the BE grinder is pretty consistent. It's held close to 9.3g for over 10 shots. I have a silly way of judging how well it's holding by the look of the top of the puck after a shot has been pulled. I also weighed 4 of them as check. All 9.3g. I suspect all of Sage's grinders will be as good. I weight the filter baskets out of the portafilter too, not in it because I found that to be a bit unreliable when fractions of a gram count. At 10 for instance on the beans I am currently using I'd have trouble getting the portafilter on. If it goes down to 9 the infusion is shorter and that changes the taste.

I bought the BE recently more or less blindly based on reviews. We did nearly buy the DTP but the gauge and automatically timed shots settled the decision. The gauge can help detect variations and how big the shot is does have an effect on the taste. I've also found that increasing the temperature by one setting helps even though I always preheat the portafilter. I don't know if the other one will do that.

I've probably put over 1kg though it now including using up some stocks of preground and am now finally mastering it. I have 2 moans really. The water tank could usefully be bigger - a lot bigger even on just say 8 maybe 9 400ml mugs a day through the machine. Also the range of filter baskets is limited. They do 2 and I suspect I would be happier if they did one that was sized in the middle of them but only because I like the machine to produce dry pucks and some beans will probably need the use of the double but under filled for single shots. The drip tray sizing isn't too bad but it can be surprising how quickly it fills up.

John

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