# roasters and esspresso and brewed



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I don't why I ask these questions but I am just curious

with so many different machines and grinders sitting on benchs worktops and counters , how does a roaster roast there coffee to enable their customers to be able to get a good cup of coffee , or put another way , what influence does the roaster do to bring out the best from the coffee but also ensure that others will be able to replicate their interpretation of it.

Creating espresso at home has so many variables not only with the different types and quality of equipment but also with techniques of distribution dosing and tamping it does seem that it is a monumental task to achieve results for everybody.

With brewed coffee a recipe including weights, volume and timing can be given and even the type of water to be used, essentially similar to cooking or baking this process of replication seems a lot less prone to mistakes or variables ,

The roaster will be the person who carefully sources the coffee and prepares it for our consumption and I am sure they would like the end user to get the best from their ingredients, do the roasters try the coffee out on different bits of equipment to see that their results are achievable on a modest domestic setup?

Can the roaster influence the coffee to come up with a mean average and or a happy balance between taste and ease of use ?

I think a lot of people have noticed and experienced that some coffee is easier than others to get a 'taister' extraction .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Some coffee is easier to extract ..whether its tasty or not is entirely down to peoples preference.

Depends what flavours you are extracting


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

@Mrboots2u I find the tastier the coffee the more I enjoy it !


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> @Mrboots2u I find the tastier the coffee the more I enjoy it !


Yep " forgiving " or easy to extract doesn't always equate to a good or tasty cup of coffee though.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> Can the roaster influence the coffee to come up with a mean average and or a happy balance between taste and ease of use ?


Not sure if they could but would you want them to?

I wouldn't I don't think. Regardless of the work, thinking and effort I sometimes have to put in along with the limits of quality my machinery will give I would hope and would rather every roaster/roastery is roasting each bean to bring out the very best in it.

After all we are all looking for excellence in our cup aren't we and excellence or perfection is never easily come by and never really achieved by comprise.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

You've raised an interesting topic and one I'd like to learn more about.

Would be good to hear from coffee roasters who are forum sponsors?

Coffee Compass (Richard)

Rave (Rob)

@foundrycoffeeroasters

@Ian Clayton

To name but a few.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> Not sure if they could but would you want them to?
> 
> I wouldn't I don't think. Regardless of the work, thinking and effort I sometimes have to put in along with the limits of quality my machinery will give I would hope and would rather every roaster/roastery is roasting each bean to bring out the very best in it.
> 
> After all we are all looking for excellence in our cup aren't we and excellence or perfection is never easily come by and never really achieved by comprise.


I do think the roaster is going to try and to its best to bringing out the taste of the said coffee, I was wondering what other considerations and or influences does the roaster have to employ if any to make sure it ends up in the cup .

For example i would think water is one consideration and I would imagine pulling a shot or two is another .

i I am guessing some coffee roast profiles don't make it through at the final testing stage because they are too hit and miss or tricky to extract. But I don't know this that's why I asked .


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Dave touched on it here

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?25483-Compak-r120-is-this-the-best-grinder-you-can-buy&p=329828#post329828


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> I do think the roaster is going to try and to its best to bringing out the taste of the said coffee, I was wondering what other considerations and or influences does the roaster have to employ if any to make sure it ends up in the cup .
> 
> For example i would think water is one consideration and I would imagine pulling a shot or two is another .
> 
> i I am guessing some coffee roast profiles don't make it through at the final testing stage because they are too hit and miss or tricky to extract. But I don't know this that's why I asked .


Got you. Would be interesting to see what the cut off point is in considerations made. The variables from bean to cup could be pretty much endless once it has left the roasters.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I try to look at things simply ..and. Now I am going to spend 100's of words trying to explain that









So do I like the tasting notes provided ? Yes - buy coffee .

Coffee arrives - Is the roast developed enough , to allow me to extract and with various brew methods , variants of those notes or tastes that I liked ( if I don't get the tasting notes , do I like the way I taste it at nominal extractions - it's not a game of bingo , it's about liking stuff ) . if no roaster not done his job. It's easier to test this with a long brew or steep , taste and occasional refract .

Once you get to know coffee a little bit , you kinda get to know what regions and varietals have some intrinsic taste characteristics..and therefore to a small degree what the roast is adding ( @ roasters am I talking bull pop here )

Plus I feel I can add sweetness via extraction , removing tastes profile I don't see is harder ..( see below )

Lastly and this is just me ( this is my preference only )

I am sensitive to a roasty like taste , I love sweetness, acidity , fruit , but I now loathe " roasty - smoky earthy flavours ( hence not a fan of Sumatran per se ). Part of this is to do with drinking more and more coffee without the additional sweetness that milk brings and just being better at making stuff I like.

I associate these flavours that, I don't like in my coffee , rightly or wrong , with the way a coffee had been roasted .I though am not a roaster , never have been, I've made simple and perhaps incorrect assumptions on colour of beans = taste ( same way light = sour to some I suppose )

To my defence though , I feel I have a clear idea of how to get to, measure, and correct to nominal extractions , so at least I can feel that I can extract across a range of extractions yields and see if there is anything I like from these , and whilst not having the best paaltry in the world, I feel its tons better than a few years ago. In general the stuff that I end up not liking after this , I still get the flavour profiles I dislike across I wide range of extractions . In some varietals these flavours( earthy ) can be inherent ( Sumatran ? Indian ? )

simple eh


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

@foundrycoffeeroasters.com touched on it here: http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?25483-Compak-r120-is-this-the-best-grinder-you-can-buy&p=330135#post330135


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

After reading the original post for this thread, it gave me a thought. Coffee roasters most likely use commercial grinders and espresso machines with which to try their own beans. Many of their consumers will not own or have access to such machines (espresso, more so than grinders as a fair few of us own second hand commercial grinders) and so will no doubt get different results at home.

So with this is mind what can the person roasting the coffee do to alter/change the profile so that it tastes the way it is intended across a wide spectrum of people?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

DoubleShot said:


> After reading the original post for this thread, it gave me a thought. Coffee roasters most likely use commercial grinders and espresso machines with which to try their own beans. Many of their consumers will not own or have access to such machines (espresso, more so than grinders as a fair few of us own second hand commercial grinders) and so will no doubt get different results at home.
> 
> So with this is mind what can the person roasting the coffee do to alter/change the profile so that it tastes the way it is intended across a wide spectrum of people?


Dont understand the question. The coffee is either soluble or it isn't ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> After reading the original post for this thread, it gave me a thought. Coffee roasters most likely use commercial grinders and espresso machines with which to try their own beans. Many of their consumers will not own or have access to such machines (espresso, more so than grinders as a fair few of us own second hand commercial grinders) and so will no doubt get different results at home.
> 
> So with this is mind what can the person roasting the coffee do to alter/change the profile so that it tastes the way it is intended across a wide spectrum of people?


Roasters usually cup their coffees, if the coffee will hit their desired target in a low agitation steep, you should be able to hit a decent extraction as drip or espresso (bearing in mind the roaster's comments on suitability). You may not hit the desired result at exactly the same strength, you might have to go a bit longer, you might even do it at a shorter ratio.

As long as you have ball-park water, you should get a decent enough result. The roaster's job is to roast the beans to the point they think they are representative of that bean, to a nominally extractable degree. It's our job to turn that raw material into a drink...trouble is, there's so much confusion & voodoo on how to do that most people are often using a mish-mash of techniques, rather than focussing on one and seeing it through to its conclusion, shooting themselves in the foot.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Makes more sense now.

Forgot about cupping for a moment and was only thinking along the lines of...if roasters tested out their own beans using high-end commercial espresso machines, they'll no doubt get far better results than average Joe using say a Gaggia. And would that not have any bearing on their roast profile of a particular bean?

But if it cups well then the espresso machines they later use probably makes no difference. Different people with different machines and using different techniques will obviously get varying results from the same beans but hopefully all will be palatable? Then everyone's (or most) happy.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Roasters usually cup their coffees, if the coffee will hit their desired target in a low agitation steep, you should be able to hit a decent extraction as drip or espresso (bearing in mind the roaster's comments on suitability). You may not hit the desired result at exactly the same strength, you might have to go a bit longer, you might even do it at a shorter ratio.
> 
> As long as you have ball-park water, you should get a decent enough result. The roaster's job is to roast the beans to the point they think they are representative of that bean, to a nominally extractable degree. It's our job to turn that raw material into a drink...trouble is, there's so much confusion & voodoo on how to do that most people are often using a mish-mash of techniques, rather than focussing on one and seeing it through to its conclusion, shooting themselves in the foot.


So the coffee roaster can test the coffee and would be able to tell if the coffee is possible to get an extraction and then by extracting it. themselves and comparing them to the results of the cupping session be able to ship to us lot to either mess it up or get it bang on .

thanks you've sort of cleared some of that up , I have no idea what low agitation steep is though ?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> .
> 
> thanks you've sort of cleared some of that up , I have no idea what low agitation steep is though ?


Letting it sit without stirring it. that's a lovely way to describe the cupping method


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> I have no idea what low agitation steep is though ?


Pour water on grinds & wait , compared to say an Aeropress with stirring, flipping, plunging coffee back through the grounds bed. The idea being a simple, consistent brew process (cupping) with low number of variables, highlighting the difference in/properties of coffees, rather than potential inconsistencies in brew recipe/agitation/filtration/draw down etc.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

DoubleShot said:


> they'll no doubt get far better results than average Joe using say a Gaggia. And would that not have any bearing on their roast profile of a particular bean?


Why would you knowingly produce an inferior / compromised product on the assumption that the end user has poor technique / equipment?

Better machines are more consistent / repeatable . Im not sure how you would roast specifically for an inconsistent machine??!

Remember home espresso is a tiny tiny drop in the ocean for most roasters.


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

I think it's more a case of the roaster doing the best with the bean at the highest level and with the better machinery in mind if that be a consideration at all but definitely the best a bean can be.

Then someone like me (Gaggia owner) being in acceptance of that I will not get the best from the bean but will try my bloody hardest anyway and while at the back of my mind knowing it could be better enjoying it when I get it good.

I've specifically done it trying to match what I've been served in a cafe by well skilled people so I know exactly how good it can be and try to aim for it with the same bean knowing I will fail to get 'as good' but pleased when getting something resembling it. I gonna be doing it again soon as my grinders changed for the better with that Geisha bean, I hope I get closer again, I should do.

If a roaster were to compensate for my machinery or skills surely I could end up not getting as good a cup due to any amount of reasons one being supplied an inferior roast it could even make it harder to dial and get the best from it.

Top grade needs to be supplied and then you in turn get the best you can individually from that quality product. To start with a consumable that is inferior regardless of skill or machinery would hinder rather than help and you wouldn't see your progression as easily as your skill and or machinery gets better.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I know it's not exactly the same thing but does looking at a roast tell you anything? I was surprised how uneven this looked compared to most that I've seen? I'm going to try cupping later to see how it tastes. Just made me wonder


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Ah good question Mr Larkin...I always am bemused if I get a roast and occasionally some seem to have a lot more of chaff/silverskin/papery stuff (or whatever you call it?) bit left clinging to the beans than others.

Immediate assumption with yours would if it did indicate something is that the roast is uneven and with the chaff stuff I talk about the after roast ot before roast shell clean wasn't as good.......of course all this is guess work on my part lol


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> Ah good question Mr Larkin...I always am bemused if I get a roast and occasionally some seem to have a lot more of chaff/silverskin/papery stuff (or whatever you call it?) bit left clinging to the beans than others.
> 
> Immediate assumption with yours would if it did indicate something is that the roast is uneven and with the chaff stuff I talk about the after roast ot before roast shell clean wasn't as good.......of course all this is guess work on my part lol


I saw one question about chaff to Gary recently and it sounded like it might depend on the type of bean initially so I think it was washed is more common to see it. Then if the roaster (machine) had a flue thing it might be possible to separate it out but sometimes not and then it'll be on the beans. If you can be bothered it's supposed to be worth removing them. This from memory so could be a bit off there.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jlarkin said:


> I know it's not exactly the same thing but does looking at a roast tell you anything? I was surprised how uneven this looked compared to most that I've seen? I'm going to try cupping later to see how it tastes. Just made me wonder


Looks like blend ?

The lighter coloured beans are actually more developed


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Looks like blend ?
> 
> The lighter coloured beans are actually more developed


I thought it looked like a blend but they don't say it is. It says it's Yellow Catuai and natural processed.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jlarkin said:


> I thought it looked like a blend but they don't say it is. It says it's Yellow Catuai and natural processed.


What origin ?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Brazil -Minas Gerais


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Our Brazil COE natural winner


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

garydyke1 said:


> Our Brazil COE natural winner


Thanks, that's interesting. Not so very different then!


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