# Can the sage pressure profile like a Vesuvius ?



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Am i missing something or am i high on caffeine ? But i have been reading lots about "prosumer" machines of late, with the emphasis of being able to formulate a decision of a future purchase, and after reading this post which on the whole is really informative about the next generation of pump machines employing software to control Pressure and pre infusion within pre set and configurable user profiles. Hasnt sage already done this ? albiet the construction may not be as bullet proof and the longevity (shelf Life) may be questionable as its unproven. But this is reflected in being a third of the price vesuvius .

I am aware when this machine turned up it caused quite a stir on this forum and it is not my intension to stir things up again. I am just trying to find the best solution to getting the best out of coffee with regards to cost and ease.

PS is it only time before someone cracks the sage's code.

PPS not trying to hijack this post


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Am i missing something or am i high on caffeine ? But i have been reading lots about "prosumer" machines of late, with the emphasis of being able to formulate a decision of a future purchase, and after reading this post which on the whole is really informative about the next generation of pump machines employing software to control Pressure and pre infusion within pre set and configurable user profiles. Hasnt sage already done this ? albiet the construction may not be as bullet proof and the longevity (shelf Life) may be questionable as its unproven. But this is reflected in being a third of the price vesuvius .
> 
> I am aware when this machine turned up it caused quite a stir on this forum and it is not my intension to stir things up again. I am just trying to find the best solution to getting the best out of coffee with regards to cost and ease.
> 
> ...


The Sage is unfortunately not anywhere near as flexible as the Vesuvius, on the Sage you can change preinfusion times and pressure, and kind of fudge a lower pressure ramp down at the end of the shot with a bit of dancing on the buttons, but nothing in this league.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Charliej said:


> The Sage is unfortunately not anywhere near as flexible as the Vesuvius, on the Sage you can change preinfusion times and pressure, and kind of fudge a lower pressure ramp down at the end of the shot with a bit of dancing on the buttons, but nothing in this league.


Is its limitation the pump/quality/group/characteristics of internal components or software?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Thecatlinux said:


> Is its limitation the pump/quality/group/characteristics of internal components or software?


Its software, I believe true staged pressure profiling is being explored


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Split from the Vesuvius review ....

And looked like an interesting topic worth more debate on its own thread .


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

garydyke1 said:


> Its software, I believe true staged pressure profiling is being explored


That is intresting now googling to see if anyone has thought of hacking the software , a cracked coffee machine sounds like a good option


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Am i missing something or am i high on caffeine ? But i have been reading lots about "prosumer" machines of late, with the emphasis of being able to formulate a decision of a future purchase, and after reading this post which on the whole is really informative about the next generation of pump machines employing software to control Pressure and pre infusion within pre set and configurable user profiles. Hasnt sage already done this ? albiet the construction may not be as bullet proof and the longevity (shelf Life) may be questionable as its unproven. But this is reflected in being a third of the price vesuvius .
> 
> I am aware when this machine turned up it caused quite a stir on this forum and it is not my intension to stir things up again. I am just trying to find the best solution to getting the best out of coffee with regards to cost and ease.
> 
> ...


Well I have looked in detail of the specs of the Sage and doesn't seem do anything remotely like the Vesuvius, it's not just about pre-infusion (in all it's different so called forms). I don't mean to be insulting, but perhaps you have not fully understood what the Vesuvius does? To compare the 2 machines would be like comparing a hot hatch with a formula one car and saying well, they both have 4 wheels, an engine and steering wheel....ones just a lot cheaper than the other and does the same thing.

Software can do a lot, but needs specific hardware to back it up....without a proper pressure profiling pump, even the venerated GS3 with the additional La Starda upgrade can't/won't do what the Vesuvius does, simply because the pump has not changed..

Your stated objective to get the best out of the coffee with regards to cost and ease, is missing some important context and one last important consideration.


Cost - Is a relative term, what's reasonable to one person won't be to another

Ease - What's hard for one person, won't be a problem for another

Best - It's a personal thing for what people want out of their coffee

Practicality - this is where a lot of people go wrong, they buy something that doesn't fit their lifestyle


I been drinking real coffee for 36 years and using espresso machines for 20 years and designing/testing and reviewing them for 6+ years a while now. Spending more doesn't always mean you get more that's true, you still need to buy the right stuff. A machine can sometimes be more than the sum of it's parts, perhaps the sage is that, perhaps not. I have extensively used over 50 different machines including levers from a range of manufacturers. I take them apart and put them back together again, I advise some on changes. I would hope to have a perspective that is unique...*.I know which machines are good, which are bad, and could rank them in order by category. BUT, I have no idea which machine would suit you, or anyone else*. The Sage might be the ideal machine for you, or it might be the ideal machine for you now and in 5 years, you might want something different.

This is all personal to me. You might own a Vario+Gaggia and whole bean from Tesco and be happy as Larry. I mean some people enjoy whatever passes for Coffee in S******ks and pay like £3 plus per cup for the burnt swill they call coffee and love it. I am retired, I don't really care who you buy your machine from or what you buy. I just try to help with information. It's hard to get through to the truth with all the marketing and commercial hype that's out there. Other barriers are owners glasses, or comments from people who have perhaps only owned a few machines before. Even "knowledge" on forums that somehow becomes fact, with no one actually checking it out.

I do hope this machine is successful, because the guys trying to bring this to market really care, they want to get it right and we need new machines, new competition, some game changers...and more importantly, in my opinion, it stands well above what's out there in the prosumer market..even the pre production prototype I have...the coffee, amazing.

Oh just saw the split from review, can the sage pressure profile. Remember that any profiling using a valve never changes the potential static pressure in the system, as the resistance builds in the puck, this static pressure quickly becomes evident, meaning a small movement can result in 9 bar or whatever the pump is set to. Pressure then becomes extremely difficult to control via flow rate and a valve, it's also not reproducable. The FG300 pump gets feedback from the force transducer to only supply the required pressure, there is no dump valve, or flow restriction to control pressure....it's all down to the speed of the pump and adjusts dynamically whatever the resistance of the coffee puck and however it changes.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

If i don't ask the questions how would i ever learn?









I enjoy your informative posts and respect your honesty RE choice of machines, and i am quite happy bumbling along with a classic at the moment and discovering the finer art of grinding and how that can influence The out come in the cup. I do not to profess to be anything other than i am,and my inquisitiveness is how i learn. Not sure i am ready for a formula one , but i think i could get something out of a hot hatch. Hey if these guys want a guinea pig end user who asks questions all the time point them in my direction LOL . Think i Need to cut my teeth on other machines first . Dual boiler but R58 is priced a bit too high for my liking.

so conclusion is that the sage can do some of the things a Vesuvius can but it does this in a cheaper way using a valve which has its implications.

I agree we need game changers.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Dave to try and address some of what you ask about the Sage.

It can't currently pressure profile in the way that a Vesuvius or the fancy Strada does, what you can do set preinfusion times and the preinfusion pressure as a % of 9 BAR, what you can do is hold down the Manual shot button to run the pump at your chosen preinfusion pressure only. When you hit the button to start your shot the pump runs slowly to achieve your chosen preinfusion pressure then after a short "wait time" it then speeds up and becomes louder as it ramps up to 9 BAR so as far as I can tell the software is controlling the pump and hence the flow, I know it does have flowmeters as it can do volumetric shots. As the shot runs at full pressure you can then do a double tap and hold down on the Manual button to run the last part of the shot at preinfusion pressure. As preinfusion pressure can be set from 50 to 100%(this being 9 BAR) and the time can also be varied you can opt to run a shot totally at a pressure below 9 BAR say 7.5 BAR to pick a figure quoted for some sprung levers, I played around with doing this while I had the machine simply for review with some mixed results bean and grind level seemed to be the 2 major factors in doing this.

One thing both myself and Gary noticed was that the longer the preinfusion time the faster the rest of the shot seemed to run, even with a grind level such that if you tried to hit it with 9 BAR from the start the machine would choke.

I would hope that if Sage do introduce new functions via firmware they offer some way for owners to update their machines, but only time will tell. What the Sage currently does is offer some features that were previously only available on machines that are over 4 times the price, with some other nice touches like automating the descaling process to a certain extent and having easily accessible drainage for both boilers and also automating backflushing, it can be run manually or the single and double shot buttons can be set to run by time or volume of water output, it preheats the water entering the brew boiler to 80 degrees C via an HX in the steam boiler just the same as an LM GS3 and also has stainless steel boilers and dual PID control, one PID on the brew boiler and one in the group itself along with the heating element, it has an integrated shot timer and many other useful little functions and comes with one of the best tampers provided with any non commercial machines as well as 4 baskets a backflush disc and a milk jug.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Yeah you can dial your espresso in (to a certain extent) with the pre-infusion values on the Sage - this has been invaluable the past few weeks.

Very interested still to get my hands on a Vesuvius and put it through its paces with some proper profiling fun : )


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Thanks Charlie , that gives me an good insight to what the sage can do. Feel a bit daft comparing it to the Vesuvius , but that wasn't my intension. I was curious about the similarities of how software was being used by both machines to control the brewing process.

An automated maintainace sounds good too.

Being capable to make a good shot is surely what everyone strives for , and the sage seems more than capable of this without to much effort ,

Would be intresting to see if there are firmware updates, but surely the limiting factor of what the machine is capable of is whats under the hood.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Thecatlinux said:


> Thanks Charlie , that gives me an good insight to what the sage can do. Feel a bit daft comparing it to the Vesuvius , but that wasn't my intension. I was curious about the similarities of how software was being used by both machines to control the brewing process.
> 
> An automated maintainace sounds good too.
> 
> ...


Well what's under the hood is all good quality stuff, all the pipe work that hot water flows through is stainless steel, stainless steel boilers, pre-heating of brew water, PID control of brew boiler and group head temperature, Breville/Sage do actually know what they are doing with espresso machine design as they have been making and selling them into other markets such as Australia for years and the DB was designed in Australia with input from highly rated baristas and coffee people, not in an office in China. If I was in the market for a Dual Boiler machine between £1200-£1800, based on my experience with the Sage I would only be looking at 2, The Sage and The BB/Quickmill Verona.

Both myself and Gary have found that you can do stuff that would result in a totally undrinkable shot on most other machines but for some reason the Sage still makes it taste good, whilst I had the demo Hausgrind, I used Peter advice re grind settings on that particular unit and ended up with a grind that tight the shot was hardly running but I left it until I reached almost my target weight and stopped the shot at 96 seconds and the coffee still tasted fine in milk lol. If you buy a Sage from John Lewis you can extend the warranty from 2 to 5 years for an extra £28 and as well all know JL has a reputation for excellent customer service.

It has drawbacks, the portafilters are a proprietary size so if you want a naked one you have to buy it from Sage, it can't be plumbed in as is, although I imagine it could probably be modded to enable this, some people see the fact that it isn't in a shiny stainless steel box as a drawback and suggest it isn't as robust as a machine that is, but that said how often do any of us pick up and move our machines around a lot, and even we do we are very careful and I would imagine if you dropped a Brewtus that would break something as well, that said the Sage body is made from stainless and a composite material not just some cheap nasty plastic unlike the grinder.

All in all if you are in the market for a dual boiler machine it's worth considering and I think the new black version looks really badass too. Like any machine the better the grinder you pair it with the better the result, I went from one of the better 64mm burred grinders to the Mythos and that made a huge leap in coffee quality, almost as big a difference as going from an MC2 to the RR55 made with the Classic.


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## Big O (Feb 25, 2014)

Charliej said:


> If you buy a Sage from John Lewis you can extend the warranty from 2 to 5 years for an extra £28 and as well all know JL has a reputation for excellent customer service.


Hi Charlie, everyone, just wanted to clarify that the extended service by John Lewis is only for an extra year. So standard 2 years is provided and this can be upped to 3 years for £28. I had this confirmed twice by them, if you have anything definite confirming otherwise i.e. 5 years let us know so i can get on the blower to them for my DB!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I'm only going off what someone who bought one from JL said last year, mine was the review version I had and bought directly off Sage, even with a 3 year repair or replace warranty and the outstanding customer service JL usually have thats a warranty 3 times longer than pretty much any other machine comes with.


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## Big O (Feb 25, 2014)

True to the word my friend. In any case the 2 year is Sage's own offering and any repairs would most likely be carried out by Coffee Classics people who do the White Glove Service for Sage. Anyone who have bought a Sage appliance should most definitely register their product on sageappliances dot co dot uk

Lucky for me, my bank gave me an additional 2 years on top of the standard warranty even covering accidental damage! Hope I don't drop my DB off the counter and smash it to pieces in 2018 then I might have to get an L1 instead!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I pulled a comedy shot on the sage just for laughs today.

Packed 19g into the 18g VST, preinfusion set to 55%, held down the manual button until not only drips had hit the cup but an actual centre-stream had formed (40 seconds) and then let it go. Achieved 30.5g in 60 seconds. The taste? One of the better shots from this batch of coffee!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Well the good thing about the Sage is that it isn't to heavy to pick up *easily* from the kitchen counter, or to move on it's roller bearing!!!


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## Big O (Feb 25, 2014)

Wow, 40 seconds pre-infusion at 55%?? Are we now using the DB for drip brewing?


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## Big O (Feb 25, 2014)

Charliej said:


> Well the good thing about the Sage is that it isn't to heavy to pick up *easily* from the kitchen counter, or to move on it's roller bearing!!!


Ah but if one forgots to lock the rollers...


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Its fun to try these things and push the art of the possible.

Ive seen the guys using the Slayer at the Plough in Harborne - they do 30-40 seconds preinfusion and 60 seconds total shot time, with a 'very fine grind'.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Gary try running an entire shot by setting preinfusion to 90 seconds and pressure to 79-80% and just leaving it to run the whole shot like that it can be interesting depending on the bean, I did notice a slightly coarser grind was needed for this lol. Sod your old style FSR go the whole hog and run an NSR


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Charliej said:


> Gary try running an entire shot by setting preinfusion to 90 seconds and pressure to 79-80% and just leaving it to run the whole shot like that it can be interesting depending on the bean, I did notice a slightly coarser grind was needed for this lol. Sod your old style FSR go the whole hog and run an NSR


Forgive my ignorance whats FSR and NSR ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Forgive my ignorance whats FSR and NSR ?


I dont know either....

What is this jargon?


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

50 second ristretto and 90 second ristretto


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Front side rear and near side rear


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

tribs said:


> 50 second ristretto and 90 second ristretto


Errr ok , new language to me

You sage boys have your own language

I still think things are ace and skill though


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Tssn

ssl

ijgmg....


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Not a new language Bootsy Garry came up with the FSR ages ago when he still had the Brewtus, I just extended it logically to NSR for a 90 second one so not a specifically Sage thing.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I can't keep up ..........


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## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

wtf ?

...........


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

These Newbies - they dont know they're born


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Fifty

Second

Ristretto


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> These Newbies - they dont know they're born


Good..............









me no understand your jive coffee talk


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Is it like groovy?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Good..............
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who's huggy bear?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Judging by all your comments you must be getting good extractions , because you are all whacked out on Caffeine . LOL


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