# Bottled water blends for brewed



## MWJB

So that suggestions on blends of readily available bottled water are more easily searchable, here's a new thread split away from the general/making water for brewed thread, as that now seems to be concentrating more on making/enhancing water for coffee.http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?21305-Water-for-Coffee

For those that just want to pick up one bottle from the supermarket & brew away, then Volvic & Waitrose Essential are pretty good datums (of course, these can be blended with each other too).

Currently liking:

1 part Strathmore to 2 parts Glaceau to 3 parts Volvic.

2 parts Harrogate to 3 parts Glaceau.

A/B'd these 2 and really couldn't tell a difference. (Red figs highlighted in yellow are estimated).








[/url]


----------



## DoubleShot

You prefer Strathmore Harrogate and Glaceau to Waitrose Essential then?


----------



## MWJB

@Step21 wrote:"I'm just beginning to sense the possibilities with Glaceau. At approx 10:1 GH:KH it can markedly reduce the alkalinity of some of the harder waters while slightly reducing the hardness. I think Highland Spring/Glaceau might be good at 50/50? Don't have any Buxton at the moment to try your suggestion."

Highland Spring & Glaceau alone tends to look like it gets soft very quickly, but still with quite a high bicarb content, maybe 1 part each would work, but I'd be inclined to add in a 3rd water, one part each with Waitrose Essential? Or even skip the Glaceau with Highland Spring and just use Highland Spring & Waitrose Essential (think you were already on to that one?)


----------



## MWJB

DoubleShot said:


> You prefer Strathmore Harrogate and Glaceau to Waitrose Essential then?


Yes. Either of the mixes above I find preferable to Waitrose Essential by itself.


----------



## Step21

Thanks for starting a new thread.

I just tried a brew (Brazen) with a 50/50 Highland Spring/Glaceau mix with a bean i've brewed in the same manner on the last couple of days. Tastewise it was good. Not brilliant. No bitterness whatsoever. Sweetness but less so than WE/Volvic mix. Not dry. It's a darker roast (present) so it's a sweet toffee type bean. Higher TDS (+0.2) with a slightly coarser grind than WE/Volvic.

My thinking on why it would work goes something like this - please correct me if wrong

The aim is for water with approx 2:1 GH:KH ratio with values around 120:60 mg/l and TDS (dry residue) around 120 - 150?

Highland Spring by my calcs (from the label - which is representative and the best we've got to go on) has GH of 143mg/l , KH 123mg/l , dry residue 170

Glaceau (from website -no info on bottle) GH of 88mg/l, KH 8.2mg/l TDS 35

50/50 would give approx GH of 116, KH 66, TDS 102.5

I'm using the fomulae GH = (magnesium * 4.2) + (calcium * 2.5) and KH = bicarb value * 0.82

I'll experiment further with HS/Waitrose


----------



## Step21

DoubleShot said:


> You prefer Strathmore Harrogate and Glaceau to Waitrose Essential then?


I think the value here is in making what you can of the water you've got or can easily obtain. In theory there are endless possibilities for creating blends that may come somewhat close to "ideal". Each will bring slightly different characteristics to a brew. What one is "best" will be personal preference.

I tried MWJB's 1:2:3, Strathmore:Glaceau:Volvic earlier and it was delicious.


----------



## DoubleShot

Reason I asked was merely due to the fact that I've only just managed to get my hands on 20 litres of Waitrose Essential after often reading that a 50/50 mix of that plus Volvic (my usual bottled water that I've always used) was recommended.

Pretty sure the large local Sainsbury's stocks one or more of the other bottled waters mentioned above so shouldn't be a problem picking some up to try.


----------



## MWJB

DoubleShot said:


> Reason I asked was merely due to the fact that I've only just managed to get my hands on 20 litres of Waitrose Essential after often reading that a 50/50 mix of that plus Volvic (my usual bottled water that I've always used) was recommended.
> 
> Pretty sure the large local Sainsbury's stocks one or more of the other bottled waters mentioned above so shouldn't be a problem picking some up to try.


There are a few other waters you can mix with that WE, so it won't go to waste.

4 parts WE to 1 part Strathmore?

5 parts WE to 1 part Abbey Well?

WE would seem to mix well with Highland Spring in various ratios from 3-6 parts to one Highland Spring?

...as well as Volvic of course.


----------



## DoubleShot

I shall follow this thread with interest. When a popular formula gets settled on, will seek to purchase any missing ingredients and begin mixing.

Thanks chaps.


----------



## MWJB

There are lots of options that theoretically have a similar goal, depends on what you can get hold of easily?


----------



## DoubleShot

Will go on a scouting mission to Sainsbury's soon to see what they stock. The localTesco is just a Metro and stocks buggar all! ?


----------



## urbanbumpkin

NiCe one MWJB


----------



## risky

Nice idea, the other thread was getting a bit confusing with people coming into it trying to ask what the best bottled solution was, while other people are getting stuck into serious science and making their own.

Would it be of any use if I moved across the posts from the other thread that list the content of the bottled waters and consolidated them into one post?

Also, when you talk about Glaceau, is that 'Smart Water' as it seems too be sold in the shops round my way?


----------



## MWJB

Thanks Risky, yes, that would be helpful.

Yes, it's full name is Glaceau Smart Water. No good for brewing by itself, but good for modifying harder waters.

http://www.drinksmartwater.com/#/home


----------



## Vieux Clou

Re Volvic, I find it quite unpleasant to drink by the glass - a bit bitter. So what's it doing to my coffee?


----------



## GlennV

I've created a spreadsheet at

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JGdQvvGyXHmIisp9Ce87cQPA2m01sccsaZOL9V6pfFg/edit?usp=sharing

to calculate the numbers for blends. It's only got 3 bottled waters in at the moment, PM me with an email address (gmail or other) if you'd like access to add more waters (otherwise, please keep all questions on this thread). Wait until it's a bit more populated and then you can make a local copy to play with the blend proportions (2nd row).

It calculates KH both from the bicarbonate and from everything else (using the fact that water must be electrically neutral). If the two numbers aren't close (e.g. Strathmore) then something's wrong. Same for TDS.


----------



## MWJB

Vieux Clou said:


> Re Volvic, I find it quite unpleasant to drink by the glass - a bit bitter. So what's it doing to my coffee?


It's pulling out a decent amount of dissolved solids, without pushing the brewed coffee to chalky, abnormally acidic, or dry. Water that tastes good by itself doesn't necessarily make good coffee, water that doesn't taste great by itself can still make good coffee. Volvic is a good 'datum' water, easily available, reasonable brewing water.

The dissolved solids in Volvic are ~130ppm, in a typical brewed/filter coffee the dissolved coffee solids are ~13000ppm, that doesn't mean you can't taste the impact of the water in what it pulls from the coffee during extraction (& other interactions), but it's probably a long shot to compare the taste of the raw water to that of the coffee?


----------



## Step21

Are there general findings that tell us what particular elements of water produce particular flavours? Presumably it must be possible to create different waters within a limited range of "ideal" that can highlight specific aspects of a coffee over another?

e.g. I had a couple of aeropress brews - same coffee, same brewing parameters, different water. Both tasty brews.

A - Deeside:Strathmore 3:1 mix - taste - very creamy, big (almost viscous) mouthfeel, sweet with just a little fruit - Estimated GH/KH 87/52

B - Waitrose Ess:Strathmore 4:1 mix - sweeter, much more fruit but markedly less creaminess & mouthfeel - estimated GH/KH 107/54.5

Water B being harder (and nearer "ideal") than A with very similar alkalinity. Harder water favouring fruitiness over body?

Very difficult to say which one was "better" or which one i liked most.


----------



## risky

Step21 said:


> Are there general findings that tell us what particular elements of water produce particular flavours? Presumably it must be possible to create different waters within a limited range of "ideal" that can highlight specific aspects of a coffee over another?


From the other thread:



xpenno said:


> the Magnesium brings out the sweetness where calcium brings out the creamyness so in an ideal world an equal mix is desirable.


Right I've updated the speadsheet. Worth perhaps editing the first post to explain what's going on in this thread, about the first 4 pages of the other thread should probably be moved across to here as they deal with bottled water, while the other thread is focused now on the xpenno method and use of bottled waters was abandoned as they are too inconsistent (in terms of the water in the bottle not meeting the specification listed on the label)


----------



## Step21

Experimentation with Deeside:Strathmore blend.

Initially 3:1 estimate of GH/KH 87/52 Taste decent but lacking fruit

Tried a 5:2 blend - estimate of GH/KH 96/56. Tasting much better - more fruit sweetness, body. Really good.

I think this can take a little more Strathmore, so plan to try 7:10 and 2:1.

I also tried a 5:2 blend of Glaceau:Buxton - estmate GH/KH 125/64. Good taste bringing out all flavour descriptors of the bean. Plan to try again with a little less Buxton.


----------



## themartincard

If anybody is considering blending with Harrogate, it's worth pointing out that the 500ml, 750ml, and 1.5l bottles all appear to have different mineral compositions (according to the ASDA, Ocado and Morrisons sites). They are:


*Volume*

*
**Ca2+*

*
**Mg2+*

*
**2CaCO3*

*
**Dry Res.*

*
**GH*

*
**KH*

*
**GH/KH*

*
**Mg/Ca*500ml5317.5235229206192.71.10.33750ml5719215???222.3176.31.30.331.5l4613185224169.6151.71.10.28

The GH and KH values were calculated using the formulas in @MWJB's post at the head of this thread. I don't know quite why Harrogate seemly go to the trouble to produce a water with three different kinds of mineral composition. Small differences, but something more for us to play around with.

Another thing that's interesting to note is that Clearview appears to have disappeared from the Tesco site... which is a shame as I'd spec'd a blend earlier today that I'd wanted to test this afternoon.

Edit: the Mg/Ca values were reached simply by dividing the Mg value by the Ca value - I'm guessing the correct way to determine their proper ratio would be to covert both into ppm as CaCO3 (Ca x 2.4 and Mg x 4.2) and divide by those values?


----------



## MWJB

Waitrose Essential (also available via Ocado) is a good match for Clearview.


----------



## MWJB

themartincard said:


> Edit: the Mg/Ca values were reached simply by dividing the Mg value by the Ca value - I'm guessing the correct way to determine their proper ratio would be to covert both into ppm as CaCO3 (Ca x 2.4 and Mg x 4.2) and divide by those values?


That's also a question I have, perhaps @Xpenno could advise, when looking for say "equal parts Ca:Mg" are we talking ppm as per label, or as CaCO3?

EDIT: Original post & charts updated WRT Ca:Mg, in lieu of Xpenno's response below.


----------



## MWJB

nebrago said:


> i use tap water personally


So do I where it's practical & tastes good enough (like everyday at work), but tap water at home is pretty dire, mixing a couple of bottles into the kettle is no real faff, especially given the results over my tap water.


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> That's also a question I have, perhaps @Xpenno could advise, when looking for say "equal parts Ca:Mg" are we talking ppm as per label, or as CaCO3?


 @MWJB I've always worked in as caco3 as that normalises the mass and gives you the same concentration of ions. If you just use mg/L and you had even numbers then you would actually have loads more Mg ions.


----------



## MWJB

Copied over from the "Water for coffee thread"....



MWJB said:


> http://waterforcoffeebook.com/pages/corrections-and-amendments


Plugging values into my spreadsheet, following the logic that the SCAA targets are as CaCO3, you end up with a water close to Tesco Clearview, not a million miles away from Waitrose Essential, or halfway between Waitrose Essential & Volvic. It seems to sit well amongst feasible waters and other recommendations for good coffee water (such as Jim Schulman's FAQ & Xpenno's water).








[/url]

If, however, you assume that the SCAA targets as mg/l, as would be stated on a bottle of water, there is unlikely such a water occurring naturally.


----------



## fatboyslim

When you guys blend in bulk do you keep it in the fridge?


----------



## DoubleShot

Keep mine away from light and heat in a cupboard. Seems happy to me judging by the taste!


----------



## Step21

Buxton:Glaceau 2:7 - super sweet. Maybe masking clarity a tad but if you like it sweet i urge you to try it! GH:KH ratio of something like 119.5:54. It's like someone plonked heaps of sugar in the cup.


----------



## fatboyslim

Ok stupid Waitrose didn't have Strathmore or Abbey Well so I got WE and Volvic. What is the recommended ratio? 1:1? @MWJB ?


----------



## DoubleShot

I know it's a VERY competitive market vying for shelf space in supermarkets but it does peeve me off when local supermarkets don't stock mainstream items that I've gone there specifically to purchase. Even worse is when they stock something for a while then the next visit that's it, dropped altogether, no longer any sign of it. Obviously it can't be selling or something but annoying from consumers point of view all the same! ?


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> Ok stupid Waitrose didn't have Strathmore or Abbey Well so I got WE and Volvic. What is the recommended ratio? 1:1? @MWJB ?


Not tried 1:1 Volvic:WE (working through a list, slowly), but it looks like the best compromise for those two.


----------



## GlennV

Has anyone else tested the Glaceau? I picked up a bottle on the way home and it's testing at 5ppm as CaCO3 KH and 190ppm as CaCO3 GH, of which 150ppm as CaCO3 is Calcium (i.e. there's 60mg/l Calcium as ion)!

Added: If the Buxton numbers are accurate, that makes @Step21's supersweet extraction blend 200 GH, 50 KH - which might even be enough to put it in Maxwell & Chris Hendon's preferred range!


----------



## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> Not tried 1:1 Volvic:WE (working through a list, slowly), but it looks like the best compromise for those two.


Brew this morning definitely had more sweetness coming through than when using my water filter. It'll suffice for now but I still want to try Strathmore and Abbey Well if I can find a supermarket that stock them!


----------



## DoubleShot

As my very limited supply of 'special' water was running out, today I filled up with the much coveted mix of 50/50 Waitrose Essential and Volvic.

Tasty coffee right now using Smokeybarn Yirgacheffe Gerbota.


----------



## Step21

GlennV said:


> Has anyone else tested the Glaceau? I picked up a bottle on the way home and it's testing at 5ppm as CaCO3 KH and 190ppm as CaCO3 GH, of which 150ppm as CaCO3 is Calcium (i.e. there's 60mg/l Calcium as ion)!
> 
> Added: If the Buxton numbers are accurate, that makes @Step21's supersweet extraction blend 200 GH, 50 KH - which might even be enough to put it in Maxwell & Chris Hendon's preferred range!


I can't seem to find the info online about this at the moment, but sometime ago i found the following detail about Glaceau smartwater and it's what i've been basing my blends on

Mg:15mg/l

Ca: 10mg/l

Alkalinity 10mg/l

TDS: 35ppm

So i've been using the values of 88 CaCO3 for GH and 8.2 CaCO3 for KH

That doesn't appear to tie in with your findings. This is supposed to be distilled water with the only additives mg,ca and potassium bicarb, so you'd think it would be more accurate than most.


----------



## GlennV

Step21 said:


> I can't seem to find the info online about this at the moment, but sometime ago i found the following detail about Glaceau smartwater and it's what i've been basing my blends on
> 
> Mg:15mg/l
> 
> Ca: 10mg/l
> 
> Alkalinity 10mg/l
> 
> TDS: 35ppm
> 
> So i've been using the values of 88 CaCO3 for GH and 8.2 CaCO3 for KH
> 
> That doesn't appear to tie in with your findings.


Those numbers aren't consistent with themselves (TDS would have to be higher) and certainly aren't consistent with what I'm measuring.



> This is supposed to be distilled water with the only additives mg,ca and potassium bicarb, so you'd think it would be more accurate than most.


You'd think so wouldn't you, which is why I was asking whether anyone else had measured it. I've just measured a second bottle, with a different batch number on it, with approximately the same result (just did a quick drop test for GH this time). Reads 0.02 on the refractometer (ie 200ppm, although that's calibrated for coffee) which is not inconsistent with what I measured.


----------



## MWJB

So Glenn, that would equate to values of:

Ca 60mg/l

Mg 10mg/l

Bicarb 6.1mg/l?


----------



## GlennV

MWJB said:


> So Glenn, that would equate to values of:
> 
> Ca 60mg/l
> 
> Mg 10mg/l
> 
> Bicarb 6.1mg/l?


Indeed, although there's a fair margin of error in the magnesium number of course, as it's derived from the difference between two larger numbers (the results of the GH test and the calcium test).


----------



## themartincard

A couple of days ago I learnt that Strathmore is stocked in Greggs (of all places) so that might be an option if it can't be found in Waitrose. Those 500ml bottles are likely to be marked up a little, though.


----------



## Step21

GlennV said:


> Those numbers aren't consistent with themselves (TDS would have to be higher) and certainly aren't consistent with what I'm measuring.
> 
> You'd think so wouldn't you, which is why I was asking whether anyone else had measured it. I've just measured a second bottle, with a different batch number on it, with approximately the same result (just did a quick drop test for GH this time). Reads 0.02 on the refractometer (ie 200ppm, although that's calibrated for coffee) which is not inconsistent with what I measured.


I got 0.00 reading from my VST coffee refrac for the Glaceau i have. Numbers on the bottle are FEB 17A then below 214AW411:52

Is a 4:1 GH:KH what the "Water for Coffee" authors are preferring?


----------



## MWJB

I got "0.02" on the VST too with Glaceau, "214"ppm with a cheapo conductive TDS meter for what it's worth.

Water for Coffee book seems to be aiming 5:1 to 9:1 GH:KH as CaCO3. 4.4:1 is the most I seem to be able to get by mixing bottled waters (according to label info).

Edit:

Buxton x1: Glaceau x5 = 5.1:1 GH:KH as CaCO3

Vittel x1: Glaceau x8 = 5.9:1 GH:KH as CaCO3

Strathmore x1: Glaceau x3 = 6.3:1 GH:KH as CaCO3...will try this one tomorrow.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> I got "0.02" on the VST too with Glaceau, "214"ppm with a cheapo conductive TDS meter for what it's worth.
> 
> Water for Coffee book seems to be aiming 5:1 to 9:1 KH:GH as CaCO3. 4.4:1 is the most I seem to be able to get by mixing bottled waters (according to label info).
> 
> Edit:
> 
> Buxton x1: Glaceau x5 = 5.1:1 KH:GH
> 
> Vittel x1: Glaceau x8 = 5.9:1 KH:GH
> 
> Strathmore x1: Glaceau x3 = 6.3:1 KH:GH...will try this one tomorrow.


I'm assuming you mean 5 to 9 parts GH to 1 part KH? Wow! That's quite unnatural!

From GlennV's analysis Glaceau is 190:5 or 38:1 (by label it is around 10:1). Would the easiest way to get 5:1 or above be to mix with Waitrose Essentials (which by label is 2:1)?

I'm not sure i'd like it as it seems to be getting towards the experiment of adding epsom salts to Waitrose Essential, which i tried and didn't like.


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> I'm assuming you mean 5 to 9 parts GH to 1 part KH? Wow! That's quite unnatural!
> 
> From GlennV's analysis Glaceau is 190:5 or 38:1 (by label it is around 10:1). Would the easiest way to get 5:1 or above be to mix with Waitrose Essentials (which by label is 2:1)?
> 
> I'm not sure i'd like it as it seems to be getting towards the experiment of adding epsom salts to Waitrose Essential, which i tried and didn't like.


Sorry, yes 5 to 9 parts GH to one part KH (will amend original post).

You probably won't get 5:1 with WE before the KH drops well under 40ppm as CaCO3. You'll need a hard water with a high KH?


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Sorry, yes 5 to 9 parts GH to one part KH (will amend original post).
> 
> You probably won't get 5:1 with WE before the KH drops well under 40ppm as CaCO3. You'll need a hard water with a high KH?


I see what you mean. What target figures for GH/KH as CaCO3 are you roughly aiming for in a 5:1?

Incidentally, i just tried Strathmore on the VST and got 0.05 - kind of what you'd expect. But given that i got 0.00 for Glaceau , it probably means that from batch to batch there are large differences which makes things difficult to predict...


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> I see what you mean. What target figures for GH/KH as CaCO3 are you roughly aiming for in a 5:1?
> 
> Incidentally, i just tried Strathmore on the VST and got 0.05 - kind of what you'd expect. But given that i got 0.00 for Glaceau , it probably means that from batch to batch there are large differences which makes things difficult to predict...


Bicarb ~48

Ca ~55

Mg ~10

TDS~200...as ppm

200GH:40KH as CaCO3


----------



## MWJB

MWJB said:


> Strathmore x1: Glaceau x3 = 6.3:1 GH:KH as CaCO3...will try this one tomorrow.


Got home & checked my water cuppings, I'd already A/B'd this at 2 parts Strathmore: 3 parts Glaceau (4.5:1 GH:KH) & 2 parts Strathmore: 5 parts Glaceau (5.8:1 GH:KH) against the Strathmore:Volvic:Glaceau mix (2.8:1 GH:KH) in the first post, "Dry, flat end". Wasn't really bad, just let down by the finish.


----------



## MWJB

So, after checking my notes I found all the mixes that landed in Hendon/Colonna-Dashwood's ideal zone (though differ in other ways such as Ca:Mg ratio) that I had tried suffered from dryness in the finish. So this morning I tried to replicate @Step21 Buxton x2:Glaceau x7 at 4:1 GH:KH as CaCO3, impatiently waiting for Ocado man to turn up with the Buxton, so in the meantime mixed up:

1 part Strathmore: 1 part Fiji: 3 parts Glaceau (~3.7:1 GH:KH as CaCO3)

...& A/B'd against my previous datum water:

1 part Strathmore: 2 parts Glaceau: 3 parts Volvic (~2.8:1 GH:KH as CaCO3)

The Strathmore x1:Fiji x1:Glaceau x3 mix extracted a further 1% EY, was sweet & juicy, loads fuller with a thick creamy body that didn't detract from the juicy acidity. This could be my new benchmark.


----------



## Mrboots2u

I need a sainsburys sell recipe


----------



## MWJB

Mrboots2u said:


> I need a sainsburys sell recipe


Sainsburys don't seem to like coffee drinkers  It's not a good "one stop water shop". No figs for Sainsburys basic table water (maybe a help if you can find some), but all the other waters apart from Volvic are even GH:KH with a high KH (mixing a lot of them with Volvic, basically gets you back to Volvic, a waste of time?), lots more options if you can find some Glaceau (Amazon?).


----------



## MWJB

1 part Strathmore: 1 part Fiji: 3 parts Glaceau (~3.7:1 GH:KH as CaCO3)

A/B'd against...

2 parts Buxton: 7 parts Glaceau (~4.0:1 GH:KH as CaCO3) as per @Step21's suggestion.

Strathmore:Fiji:Glaceau rounder, creamy, more syrupy mouthfeel.

Buxton:Glaceau better clarity, flavours popped more, if a little thinner in mouthfeel (no bad thing).

Hard to pick a favourite.








[/url]


----------



## MWJB

Here's a list of bottled water combinations, using 2 brands (3 opens up more options but makes for a telephone directory sized document).

It's sorted by "Water #1" then by "GH:KH" ratio. So by the time you get to "V" & "W" it doesn't look like many options for Waitrose or Volvic, that's because they have already been covered in waters earlier in the alphabet, to save on replicated combinations.

Other factors like PH, Ca:Mg ratio etc., may have an influence, figures not available for PH for all brands so most combinations are missing this. SCAA recommendation is 6.5-7.5PH.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K5R8vZq7lvpQpcB3FPPJtdFMHj9Emg0s1TEdIN5ZOBY/edit?usp=sharing

Edit: Updated 27 Oct 15


----------



## garydyke1

Very useful , much appreciated


----------



## DoubleShot

Hat off to you, stellar work there ma man. ?


----------



## Step21

On board an easyjet flight i picked up a new Welsh (to me) bottled water called "Princes Gate" from Pembrokeshire. It could be a useful mixer (somewhat similar to Glaceau but "natural") if you can source it.

PH:7, Ca:54mg/l, Mg: 8, Sodium: 12, Potassium 1.2, Dissolved solidds at 180C: 206


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> On board an easyjet flight i picked up a new Welsh (to me) bottled water called "Princes Gate" from Pembrokeshire. It could be a useful mixer (somewhat similar to Glaceau but "natural") if you can source it.
> 
> PH:7, Ca:54mg/l, Mg: 8, Sodium: 12, Potassium 1.2, Dissolved solidds at 180C: 206


It would be interesting to know how the KH (bicarbonate) compared to Glaceau, for a natural water it would likely be higher than Glaceau (it's the low bicarb that makes Glaceau a useful enabler for other water).

Tried 2 Buxton:7 Glaceau vs 1 Volvic:1 Glaceau yesterday, similar GH:KH relationship (4:1) but lower TDS all round for Volvic:Glaceau & just over 30ppm KH as CaCO3. Both were very tasty, sweet & juicy - Buxton:Glaceau fuller mouthfeel & rounder, Volvic:Glaceau thinner but great, almost startling/challenging clarity, without leaving any dryness. Volvic:Glaceau should work well anywhere between 3:2 & 1:1 mix.


----------



## risky

Anyone used aqua Panna? I noticed it being used by a few folk at the coffee festival recently.

pH8.2

Calcium (Ca)30.2

Chloride (Cl−)7.1

Bicarbonate (HCO3)100

Fluoride (Fl)0.1

Magnesium (Mg)6.9

Nitrate (NO3)5.7

Potassium (K)0.9

Silica (SiO2)8.2

Sodium (Na)6.5

Strontium (Sr2)0.2

Sulfates (SO)21.4


----------



## Fevmeister

aqua panna is my favourite drinking water, always have a few bottles in

Would be interested to hear some peoples thoughts on it for brewed


----------



## fatboyslim

@MWJB I more or less understand your spreadsheet but what I don't quite get is the ideal range of some of the minerals. I'm currently looking for some decent bottled water in Spain for making brewed coffee and this is what I got.









How far from "ideal" is this and what sort of water would blend well with this?

Cheers


----------



## MWJB

Honestly, I don't know what "ideal" is...there are varying, large ranges of ideal from several sources. Even so, very few mineral waters fit within any guides (Waitrose Essential, Volvic & some of the Armathwaite Cumbrian waters here in the UK)...you can still brew decent coffee with them & make what is recognisably coffee with others, but I'm not sure that there is any one bottled water that can compare to a decent mix of more than one (or cutting a hard water with distilled water?).

However, most good ranges seem to concur that too little bicarbonate, or too much bicarbonate/HCO3 is less than ideal. A good range being perhaps 40mg/l as written on the bottle (33mg/l as CaCO3) up to perhaps 80mg/l as written on the bottle (66mg/l as CaCO3). Your water has a high bicarbonate content (128mg/l by label or 105mg/l as CaCO3).

It is also low in calcium and magnesium, which are useful for pulling out the coffee solids. Your General Hardness to Karbonate Hardness (alkalinity) is very low at 0.4:1 as CaCO3 *(0.1:1 as mg/l on the label). *Anywhere from approaching 2:1, up to 4:1 as CaCO3 seems to give good results for the bottled water I have tried. My guess is that this water will suppress acidity & brightness, may be creamy but dull? It doesn't look like a good mixer for other water, neither will cutting it with distilled water seem to improve it.

I would aim for bicarbonate (HCO3) in the range stated above *(40-80mg/l as stated on the label). *Add the Calcium and Magnesium together and then divide by bicarbonate. *Using the values on the label, aim for (Ca+Mg):Bicarbonate ratio of at least 0.3:1*, upwards. There don't seem to be many waters that will get you much past 0.5:1 or more without being very high in bicarbonate.

Sorry about the bold text, I was hoping discussing bottled waters would simplify composition discussions (e.g. "add 2 parts of water A to 1 part water B"), but the 2 methods by which water is discussed makes for a dual scale/reference & some confusion, so I'm steering you towards what the bottle actually says, without additional calculations, so you can do a quick sum in the supermarket aisle? (If you want a rough, rule of thumb to convert label mg/l GH:KH ratio to GH:KH as CaCO3, multiply GH only by 3.5, so 0.3:1 becomes 1.0:1 as CaCO3)


----------



## DoubleShot

Harrogate still water currently on offer, 500ml x 12-pack £1 at Morrisons for anyone using it in their custom water blend.


----------



## aaroncornish

Thanks for this great thread.

I will move over to Waitrose as a starting point.

Did a GH and KH test on my tap water yesterday.

Both GH and KH are less than 10ppm, by the time it has been brita filtered to remove the Chlorine, it is pretty much RO!


----------



## Step21

Getting some nice brews with a mix of Fairbourne Spring (Co-op)/Glaceau. Seems to work well between 1:3 and 2:5.


----------



## risky

Is this the same as normal Harrogate? This is from eat.

Guess it's not much cop, 0.32:1?


----------



## MWJB

Yes, looks like the same stuff. 0.32:1 in itself isn't a deal killer, it's more the high bicarbonate (185mg/l).

You can mix with Deeside at 3 parts to 7 parts Deeside for a water similar to Volvic (soft enough for espresso). Or, 1 part to 1 part Glaceau Smart Water up to 1 Harrogate:3 GSW for brewed.

5 parts Waitrose Essential to 1 part Harrogate gives a mix similar to 1:1 Volvic:WE.


----------



## risky

Not much point messing about with it if the results are the same as a volvic waitrose mix.

Are you using the Volvic/Glaceau mix?

I've been using straight waitrose for brewed and waitrose/volvic 1:1 for espresso.


----------



## MWJB

Yes, I'm using a Volvic Glaceau mix for brewed...as well as Harrogate & Glaceau, Buxton & Glaceau...& others, for a higher GH:KH ratio than you can get with just WE & Volvic.


----------



## fatboyslim

Just made a v60 of this month's #SSSSS using 7 parts WE and 1 part Strathmore.

This blend has really opened my palate up to what flavour clarity should be like.

Such defined flavours! Thanks for the leg work everyone.


----------



## Andy__C

Wow, I'm new here, but been brewing coffee for many years (favourite is the aeropress) and I have never considered bottled water, not to mention blends of water. I feel very un-refined!

I'm going to have to try this, thanks all.

Out of interest, how does bottled water compare to filtered / RO water? Or is this a different topic?


----------



## MWJB

Andy__C said:


> Wow, I'm new here, but been brewing coffee for many years (favourite is the aeropress) and I have never considered bottled water, not to mention blends of water. I feel very un-refined!
> 
> I'm going to have to try this, thanks all.
> 
> Out of interest, how does bottled water compare to filtered / RO water? Or is this a different topic?


Welcome Andy_C. There is another water for coffee thread dealing with making/modifying/remineralising water http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?21305-Water-for-Coffee&highlight=water+coffee

We split off this thread just to deal with bottled water.


----------



## risky

Out of interest, what's the current benchmark bottled water blend for espresso?


----------



## MWJB

Volvic


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I've been using just Volvic this week as they didn't have any waitrose essentials when I called in at the mini version.


----------



## risky

I think I might switch to 100% Volvic. I ran out a while ago and it's been on 100% WE and I think it's been making life a bit difficult.


----------



## onecup

Found the following PDF on the web when looking for water hardness of bottled water.

Document is quite long and is slightly dated but the values for popular brands still hold true. For the overall hardness Magnesium and Calcium values have to be low. Skip to page 24 for the table.

http://www.buckscc.gov.uk/media/137448/food_water_survey.pdf


----------



## fatboyslim

I'm really struggling to find any bottled water suitable for brewed here in Madrid. Almost all of them have bicarbonate content over 200 mg/l so quite hard. There is one with 20mg/l but dry residue is only 28mg/l @180 degrees so quite low on everything. Mg 0.91mg/l and Ca 5.26mg/l. I presume that's no good by itself but potentially good to blend with a high Mg water?


----------



## MWJB

Try one part of the harder water to 2 or 3 parts of the softer water?


----------



## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> Try one part of the harder water to 2 or 3 parts of the softer water?


1 part harder water to 2 parts very soft is working well now. By your impeccable blending standards its probably a long way off ideal but they just don't have a good choice of bottled water in Spain. Only one water available with bicarbonate below 100mg/l


----------



## jlarkin

MWJB said:


> Values pertain to bottle label values rather than measurements, approximate values are yellow highlighted & red text.
> 
> Three sets of figures exist for Harrogate, approximate TDS given for the lowest TDS variation, others unknown assume a little higher.
> 
> Many options are ~200-300ppm TDS, not recommended for espresso machines.
> 
> Blue: Probably not worth trying.
> 
> Green: Existing datum/known good.
> 
> Gold: My personal or recommended & tested "try this" suggestion.
> 
> No highlight: Suck it & see...
> 
> Other factors like PH, Ca:Mg ratio etc., may have an influence, figures not available for PH for all brands so most combinations are missing this. SCAA recommendation is 6.5-7.5PH.
> 
> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/65500009/Bottled%20Water%20Combos%20x2%2027.10.15.pdf
> 
> Edit: Updated 27 Oct 15


Did you remove this @MWJB? I got an error on Dropbox with the URL


----------



## MWJB

jlarkin said:


> Did you remove this @MWJB? I got an error on Dropbox with the URL


No, I haven't removed it, the link worked for me, can someone else give us a sanity check please?


----------



## Xpenno

MWJB said:


> No, I haven't removed it, the link worked for me, can someone else give us a sanity check please?


Still working here.


----------



## El carajillo

Yes link works fine


----------



## jlarkin

It works now - thanks for posting originally + confirming / checking etc.


----------



## risky

MWJB said:


> No, I haven't removed it, the link worked for me, can someone else give us a sanity check please?


Working for me.


----------



## jlarkin

I haven't got my head around this quite yet, as I've been happy with the Volvic / Waitrose essential mix for brewed and espresso but I have now got a bumper load of various waters to try and so just wanted to double check if I'm correct in thinking the mixes are primarily recommended (from the dropbox file) for brewed coffee? I think I saw somewhere before that some might not be recommended to put in an espresso machine due to the hardness but maybe I'm wrong or already above what might be recommended?

Hope that makes sense...


----------



## MWJB

The dropbox list applies to brewed coffee.


----------



## Step21

I noticed yesterday that in my local Tescos that 5L Ashbeck was on sale again. Not that i'm recommending it. But it could perhaps be a useful mixer. Maybe it's been back for ages and i've not noticed...

They also had 6 packs of 600ml Glaceau which i've not seen anywhere before. I usually get 12 packs from Morrisons, which up to now has been the only place round here to stock Glaceau multis.


----------



## risky

A new one for the spreadsheet:










This is 'Aqua Pura'. 100% pure British natural mineral water.

Tesco £1.90 for 6x1.5L.

Annoyingly both my local Tesco have stopped selling volvic in anything bigger than 1L.


----------



## fatboyslim

@MWJB where are you at with testing different water blends? I've been sticking with 7 parts WE to 1 part Strathmore for awhile and find that more Strathmore reduces sweetness.

I'm going to try 1 part volvic to 1 part Glaceau as volvic is on offer at the moment. I'm looking for a blend that delivers clean flavours with exaggerated sweetness and find WE/Strath works very well.


----------



## MWJB

There are too many permutations to test to be honest, lots of different combinations work. Mostly I stick to 0.9:1 to 1.2:1 GH:KH and 4:1 to 5:1 Ca:Mg going by mg/l as reported on the bottle label. I use whatever water is t hand to get me there.

This week it's 1 part Fiji (just because I have some), 4 parts Glaceau, 2 parts Volvic.

1 part Fiji:1 part Strathmore:3 parts Glaceau was pretty good too, but on par with a 2 Buxton:7 Glaceau mix.

For cupping a totally new coffee it's always just Volvic.


----------



## mathof

risky said:


> A new one for the spreadsheet:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> This is 'Aqua Pura'. 100% pure British natural mineral water.
> 
> Tesco £1.90 for 6x1.5L.
> 
> Annoyingly both my local Tesco have stopped selling volvic in anything bigger than 1L.


My Tesco has done the same thing. I tried their Ashbeck, but I didn't like the taste in coffee (or on its own). Have you (or anyone else) tried the Aqua Pura?

Matt


----------



## risky

mathof said:


> My Tesco has done the same thing. I tried their Ashbeck, but I didn't like the taste in coffee (or on its own). Have you (or anyone else) tried the Aqua Pura?
> 
> Matt


Ashbeck is useless. Far too soft. The Aqua Pura is ok. Not a par on Volvic though.


----------



## MWJB

Not tried it (Aqua Pura) myself, but you could try 3 parts to one part Strathmore.


----------



## MWJB

risky said:


> Ashbeck is useless. Far too soft. The Aqua Pura is ok. Not a par on Volvic though.


Aqua Pura (like Glaceau) is very low bicarbonate, you need to mix it with something to lift that.


----------



## MarkT

Hi guys Sainsburys might still have a few Volvic left if you have one near by @ £2.50 for 6 X 1.5 L. Failing that waitrose have it for 12 X 1.5 l for £6. Tesco seem to have stopped stocking them. That's in York.


----------



## fatboyslim

@MWJB just tried Glaceau/Volvic 1:1 and found a very different cup to strath/WE 1:7. Not actually sure I like the former but having just bought 12 600ml bottles of Glaceau I'll keep at it. Might I change the ratio a bit to favour my taste or possibly Glaceau and strath and/or WE?


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> @MWJB just tried Glaceau/Volvic 1:1 and found a very different cup to strath/WE 1:7. Not actually sure I like the former but having just bought 12 600ml bottles of Glaceau I'll keep at it. Might I change the ratio a bit to favour my taste or possibly Glaceau and strath and/or WE?


Glaceau is a great enabler and will improve many other waters. No matter what else I have, I always have some of this in for brewed.

1:1 Volvic:Glaceau I found had really good clarity, but not a lot of body (doesn't bother me). You could try anything down to 4 parts Volvic: 1 Glaceau to boost the bicarbonate (but Ca & Mg will drop the more Volvic you use). Maybe compare 1:1, 3:2 & 4:1?

Try 1 Strath:2 Glaceau:3 Volvic.

Glaceau & WE both are low in bicarbonate, probably not a good mix.

Strath & Glaceau both have a very high GH:KH ratio, to get the bicarbonate up would result in 300mg/l water (dry residue) and 1.5:1 GH:KH as mg/l by label (5:1 as CaCO3) at 1 Strath:2 Glaceau. This is in the Hendon/Colonna-Dashwood range but has a very high Ca:Mg ratio. I haven't liked water in this range that I have tried (dry finish).


----------



## fatboyslim

1 Strath: 2 Glac: 3 Volv sounds great as I have all these waters on the go at the moment. My gf things I've lost my mind ?


----------



## Step21

My default brew water is 1 part Fairbourne Spring (Co-op) to 3 parts Glaceau. I've tried various blends with Glaceau but always come back to this one.


----------



## fatboyslim

Just tried 1 Strath: 2 Glac: 3 Volv and found it to have very muted acidity! Not to my liking. I think I'm starting to see a pattern where any combination including Volvic is not quite to my liking. I get less acidity and more what I'd describe as muted but very clear flavours. Wish I understood more tbh. Think I'll have to purchase Maxwell's book. Going to try Glaceau and Harrogate Spring as I have loads of Glaceau.


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> Just tried 1 Strath: 2 Glac: 3 Volv and found it to have very muted acidity! Not to my liking. I think I'm starting to see a pattern where any combination including Volvic is not quite to my liking. I get less acidity and more what I'd describe as muted but very clear flavours. Wish I understood more tbh. Think I'll have to purchase Maxwell's book. Going to try Glaceau and Harrogate Spring as I have loads of Glaceau.


How are you brewing when you compare waters, are you A/Bing them?

Volvic & Glaceau 1:1 is low bicarbonate & high Calcium, this should be able to produce plenty of acidity.

Maxwell's book may be informative, but you'll never hit his targets with bottled water & maintain any balance of Calcium & Magnesium.


----------



## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> How are you brewing when you compare waters, are you A/Bing them?
> 
> Volvic & Glaceau 1:1 is low bicarbonate & high Calcium, this should be able to produce plenty of acidity.
> 
> Maxwell's book may be informative, but you'll never hit his targets with bottled water & maintain any balance of Calcium & Magnesium.


I'm not A/Bing them I'm just making informal and subjective observations. I used to be a tea taster for Yorkshire Tea so there are a few tricks of the trade if you don't have a comparison sample handy.

I'll give Volv/Glac a few more brews to ensure consistent extractions, but also pick up some Harrogate Spa. I've got 500g of coffee in the freezer from Christmas so I could definitely do some A/Bing (also comparison between Hausgrind and Preciso if I ever get round to it).


----------



## Ramrod

I'm still at the noob stage of using Britta filtered water. One step at a time.


----------



## fatboyslim

I'm not keeping track of the parameters, going purely on taste. I've found I really like a blend of WE, Volvic and strathmore.

An example would be 14g coffee into 230ml water (initially 430ml for rinsing/pre-heating) made up using:

55ml Strathmore

145ml Volvic

230ml WE

This may be way out by all golden standards but I've been experimenting a lot with what water I've got and this combo really suits some lightish rwandan Origin beans I've got at the moment.


----------



## Rob1

*2,4-D*

[TD]

[TD]0.0100µg/l0.1610.00 *Aluminium*

[TD]

[TD]124µg Al/l200370.00 *Ammonium (ammonia and ammonium ions)*

[TD]

[TD]0.0399mg NH4/l0.5170.00 *Antimony*

[TD]

[TD]0.170µg Sb/l580.00 *Arsenic*0.1100.1450.190µg As/l1080.00*Benzene*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l1740.00 *Benzo(a)pyrene*

[TD]

[TD]0.0020µg/l0.0190.00 *Boron*0.00150.00640.0143mg B/l1730.00*Bromate*

[TD]

[TD]0.210µg BrO3/l1080.00 *Cadmium*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg Cd/l580.00 *Calcium*21.430.1101mg Ca/l370.00*Chloride*4.929.3217.5mg Cl/l250720.00*Chromium*0.0500

[TD]0.100µg Cr/l5080.00 *Residual chlorine - Total*0.090.570.96mg/l1080.00*Residual chlorine - Free*0.020.520.91mg/l1080.00*Colony Counts after 2 days at 37 deg C*09>300number/1ml350.00*Colony counts after 3 days at 22 deg C*09>300number/1ml350.00*Coliform bacteria*000number/100ml01080.00*Colour*

[TD]

[TD]7.26mg/l Pt/Co scale20370.00 *Conductivity*189239303uS/cm at 20oC2500180.00*Copper*

[TD]

[TD]0.0317mg Cu/l280.00 *Clostridium perfringens (including spores)*000number/100ml0360.00*Clopyralid*

[TD]

[TD]0.0400µg/l0.130.00 *Cyanide*

[TD]

[TD]2.34µg CN/l50720.00 *1,2-dichloroethane*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l3720.00 *Diazinon*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l0.1250.00 *Dicamba*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l0.1240.00 *Dieldrin*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l0.03240.00 *Dichlorprop*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l0.1350.00 *E.coli*000number/100ml01080.00*Enterococci*000number/100ml080.00*Fluoride*0.0100

[TD]0.0700mg F/l1.5730.00 *Fluroxypyr*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l0.1260.00 *Glyphosate*0.0084

[TD]0.0303µg/l0.1580.00 *Total hardness*2941138mg Ca/l370.00*Iron*

[TD]

[TD]95.8µg Fe/l200370.00 *Lead*

[TD]

[TD]2.86µg Pb/l1080.00 *Magnesium*3.906.7222.8mg Mg/l370.00*Manganese*

[TD]

[TD]6.66µg Mn/l50370.00 *MCPA*

[TD]

[TD]0.0100µg/l0.1610.00 *Mecoprop*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l0.1260.00 *Mercury*

[TD]

[TD]0.0420µg Hg/l1740.00 *Nickel*

[TD]

[TD]6.71µg Ni/l2080.00 *Nitrite*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]mg NO2/l0.580.00 *Nitrate*1.552.503.14mg NO3/l5080.00*(Nitrate)/50 plus (nitrite)/3*0.02900.04910.0620mg/l180.00*Odour (quantitative)*000dilution number at 25oC0190.00*Total organic carbon*0.5701.002.30mg C/l720.00*Polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons (sum of 4 PAHs)*0.00000.00430.0340µg/l0.180.00*Pesticides - Total*0.00000.00220.0480µg/l0.51710.00*Hydrogen ion (pH)*7.277.557.86pH value9.5720.00*Selenium*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg Se/l1080.00 *Sodium*16.118.120.0mg Na/l20080.00*Sulphate*6.1630.586.0mg SO4/l250740.00*Taste (quantitative)*000dilution number at 25oC0190.00*Tetrachloromethane*0.0200

[TD]0.160µg/l370.00 *Trihalomethanes - Total*25.136.852.4µg/l10070.00*Triclopyr*

[TD]

[TD]

[TD]µg/l0.1610.00 *Tetrachloroethene and trichloroethene*0.00000.06900.414µg/l1060.00*Turbidity*

[TD]

[TD]0.31NTU4370.00 

I just use my tap water. It's filtered through a brita filter and I'm thinking maybe I should just use it unfiltered to retain the magnesium.

If I were to splash some cash on a special filter would it produce water that's both ideal and consistent?


----------



## jlarkin

fatboyslim said:


> I'm not keeping track of the parameters, going purely on taste. I've found I really like a blend of WE, Volvic and strathmore.
> 
> An example would be 14g coffee into 230ml water (initially 430ml for rinsing/pre-heating) made up using:
> 
> 55ml Strathmore
> 
> 145ml Volvic
> 
> 230ml WE
> 
> This may be way out by all golden standards but I've been experimenting a lot with what water I've got and this combo really suits some lightish rwandan Origin beans I've got at the moment.


Seems a shame to use bottled water for rinsing and heating that aside that's interesting. Have you been using it with other coffees or particularly Rwandan ones still?


----------



## GlennV

Rob1 said:


> I just use my tap water. It's filtered through a brita filter and I'm thinking maybe I should just use it unfiltered to retain the magnesium.
> 
> If I were to splash some cash on a special filter would it produce water that's both ideal and consistent?


A brita shouldn't be removing magnesium. What are the column headers?


----------



## Rob1

Sorry, the from the left the columns are minimum, average and maximum. The others aren't relevant and relate to maximum legal limits.

The brita website says their filters remove magnesium.


----------



## GlennV

Ah OK, fair enough. To be more specific, it shouldn't remove too much magnesium if there's enough calcium around - as the resin has a greater affinity for the larger molecule. I can't find numbers for this though.


----------



## GlennV

Anyway, to get back to your original question @Rob1. Using the average numbers, and assuming 0 for potassium, as it's not given, your tap water comes out as about 105/95 (thats GH (hardness)/KH(alkalinity) "as CaCO3"). This is not very hard, but it is scaling; so I wouldn't put it straight into an espresso machine myself. I would recommend the BWT MG2+ jug filter refills (which fit a brita maxtra jug) as these will actually increase the magnesium levels a little whilst decreasing calcium and bicarbonates. This would be fine, but note that "ideal" water would probably has less bicarbonates( AKA KH,alkalinity) without reducing the hardness - one way of doing that would be to put a little bit of magnesium or calcium chloride back in after filtering, or blending with some Glaceau (as that's basically what it is).


----------



## Missy

OK my brain hurts. I feel like I should be able to understand this but I can't. So I'm going to say what about this? And let people whose brains are not addled tell me.









Better or worse than tap water? I can also email the 27 page document Yorkshire water sent me when their website didn't have my address listed!!


----------



## MWJB

This is a hard water, likely high in bicarbonate, not good water for coffee.


----------



## Missy

MWJB said:


> This is a hard water, likely high in bicarbonate, not good water for coffee.


 Thanks. Thought it might be, now I feel better for photographing the bottle at the shop not splashing out 17p on it.


----------



## James811

Dry residue on that is 219mg/L as you can see. I have been doing a lot of reading and it seems to be that 120-150 ish is best. I personally just go with tesco ashbeck. It's total dry residue is 80mg/L so it is possible to do better but I don't really tell any difference, plus, tesco is closest to me


----------



## MWJB

James811 said:


> Dry residue on that is 219mg/L as you can see. I have been doing a lot of reading and it seems to be that 120-150 ish is best. I personally just go with tesco ashbeck. It's total dry residue is 80mg/L so it is possible to do better but I don't really tell any difference, plus, tesco is closest to me


For brewed coffee you can go higher in dry residue than this, but the trick is to keep the bicarbonate down, sometimes mixing a hard water like @Missy 's with a low bicarbonate water like Glaceau Smart Water can work well. For espresso Waitrose Essential & Volvic are popular, a 50:50 mix gets you close to SCAA target.


----------



## Missy

See now my head hurts again. That's aldis 17p /2litre stuff


----------



## MWJB

Missy said:


> See now my head hurts again. That's aldis 17p /2litre stuff


How were you hoping to use it?


----------



## Robbo

Missy said:


> See now my head hurts again. That's aldis 17p /2litre stuff


I would say Just go with Ashbeck from Tesco. £2.10 for 6x2L

You have a gaggia classic same as me and Ive tried Volvic, Waitrose and a mix of the 2 but can tell absolutely no difference between any of them...but then again my tastes are likely not as refined as others..


----------



## Missy

Thanks guys. Not sure hubby will go for that. Cash is super tight, I'm assuming I can justify it as against a new filter thingy....


----------



## Missy

Total hardness is "48" in our tap water.... As I say I'm totally at sea with this!


----------



## MWJB

Try half & half Aldi & tap water, compare to tap water alone.


----------



## Missy

That's hardness not total dissolved in the tap water, there didn't seem to be a figure for dissolved.


----------



## MWJB

Was it " dry residue ##mg/l"? The other constituents add up to more than the total dry residue, that is normal...if a bit counter intuitive.


----------



## Missy

Calcium - mg Ca/l 42.4

Magnesium - mg Mg/l 3.5912

Total Hardness - mg Ca/l 48.35

Its a 6 page doc. Those seemed the relevant lines.


----------



## MWJB

a 50:50 mix should bump up the overall TDS & up the bicarbonate of your tap water, drop it for the bottled, won't make much odds to Ca & Mg but may make the tapwater less thin & bright, the bottled water less chalky/swampy?


----------



## Missy

So my water is soft? Oddly I thought it was hard. Not sure why now I think of it.


----------



## James811

Do you guys use your bottled water for rinsing paper filters eg in a chemex or use tap water then use bottled for the brew?


----------



## MWJB

For a V60/Kalita Wave yes (I don't always rinse paper, but usually preheat a drip cone) , if you're using a lot of rinse/preheat water, then use tap water.


----------



## GlennV

Missy said:


> So my water is soft? Oddly I thought it was hard. Not sure why now I think of it.


Actually, you were right in the first place - your water is moderately hard. 48ppm Calcium, is 120ppm GH (general hardness) as CaCO3. You multiply by 2.5. That's probably good coffee water, but you need to know the bicarbonate/alkalinity really. If the water report doesn't give it, then you can type the numbers for the other main minerals into column C of my spreadsheet, referenced upthread somewhere, and it will calculate it for you.

Edit: here http://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1JGdQvvGyXHmIisp9Ce87cQPA2m01sccsaZOL9V6pfFg/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## James811

Guys, I've tried a few different waters for the last few days, and can tell no difference. I did blind taste tests yesterday, one of which was tap water next to ashbeck, both in the aeropress with the same method and they're both exactly the same to me. What sort of differences should I be looking for, so I can focus of that part of the coffee in case I'm missing it?


----------



## MWJB

James811 said:


> Guys, I've tried a few different waters for the last few days, and can tell no difference. I did blind taste tests yesterday, one of which was tap water next to ashbeck, both in the aeropress with the same method and they're both exactly the same to me. What sort of differences should I be looking for, so I can focus of that part of the coffee in case I'm missing it?


What is the make up of your tap water vs Ashbeck?

How are you eliminating the variables, how are you brewing & ensuring that the cups are identical in as many ways as possible, apart from the water?

Take 2 French presses (or flat bottomed, heat proof glasses), grind fine drip, brew at 19:1 with boiling water, covered steep and leave until a comfortable drinking temp (20min minimum), skim/pour off the top oily layer & taste.

Make one cup with Ashbeck, make the other with Badoit, Evian or Vittel. Report back.

Your Aeropress might make a pleasant enough cup & quickly, but the way most people use them (overdosed, low temp, low extractions), it's not the best way to highlight differences & clarity in coffee. Plus you have quite a lag in time from one brew to the next, it's best to try and do this with 2 brewers, as quickly as possible, you can transfer small samples to cool shot glasses to even out the temperature between the samples.


----------



## James811

@MWJB I used the same method on aeropress side by side and my other half pushed the other aeropress for me as the same time and speed I did. I will do a cupping later as opposed to a brew


----------



## StusBrews

Hey All,

Newbie to the forum here but a serious coffee enthusiast.

Made couple of visits to Prufrock recently and on separate occasions I tried a Colombian Natural Typica and a Panama Natural Geisha...both brewed with the V60, both absolutely stunning coffees.

My conversation with the brew barista turned to water and how it hinders my ability to make equally tasty brews at home. Prufrock kindly offered to fill up a water bottle for me on my next visit so I can try their brew water at home.

I doubt I'll be able to get much, maybe 1 or 2 litres of the stuff, but wondered if anyone would be interested in a sample for analysis?


----------



## MWJB

Why not just ask them what spec the water is?


----------



## StusBrews

I did ask last time, but the barista I was speaking to didn't know the exact numbers. I'm dropping by tomorrow so will ask again


----------



## StusBrews

So I picked up some water to try at home. Asked them for their water spec but still no details about the water composition. They did say it is around 90ppm on the counter and 110ppm in the training centre downstairs.


----------



## Step21

I can't find any Glaceau in my area this past few weeks and have now run out. Anyone else noticed this?

Strange because just a few weeks back it seemed to be everywhere, even my local co-op was stocking 6 packs.

Deeside seems my nearest (to Glaceau) available option.


----------



## Step21

Found some Waitrose Essentials Stretton Hills lurking in the back of the garage. First brew was underwhelming - really lacking sweetness. Added a 18mg of Mg (epsom salts) to 2L for a vast improvement. Not as good as my usual water though.

Just shows how important water is. Otherwise I'd be thinking something was wrong with my technique.


----------



## Phobic

Step21 said:


> Found some Waitrose Essentials Stretton Hills lurking in the back of the garage. First brew was underwhelming - really lacking sweetness. Added a 18mg of Mg (epsom salts) to 2L for a vast improvement. Not as good as my usual water though.
> 
> Just shows how important water is. Otherwise I'd be thinking something was wrong with my technique.


have you tried blending it with Volvic? I've been using as a mix for a while but thinking of trying some different combos out.


----------



## Step21

Phobic said:


> have you tried blending it with Volvic? I've been using as a mix for a while but thinking of trying some different combos out.


I have in the past. It was an improvement on 100% WE IIRC. I don't have any Volvic to hand. It used to be common place but not round my way anymore. Quite settled on my Glaceau mix. May have to consider buying a home distiller and making it myself.


----------



## fatboyslim

Step21 said:


> I can't find any Glaceau in my area this past few weeks and have now run out. Anyone else noticed this?
> 
> Strange because just a few weeks back it seemed to be everywhere, even my local co-op was stocking 6 packs.
> 
> Deeside seems my nearest (to Glaceau) available option.


Also struggling to find Glaceau. Anyone found a reliable source? You can get 24x600ml for like £15 off ebay...

@MWJB any alternatives that involve blending Volvic other than with WE? Thanks


----------



## The Systemic Kid

@fatboyslim - try Ocado online. Had a mega delivery last week. They do 6x600ml for £2.20 which is better than the above Ebay deal. You can also get free delivery if you pick the right slot. And the best bit??....

....Here's a code for £20.00 off first order - minimum spend £80.00.

VOU9459749


----------



## fatboyslim

The Systemic Kid said:


> @fatboyslim - try Ocado online. Had a mega delivery last week. They do 6x600ml for £2.20 which is better than the above Ebay deal. You can also get free delivery if you pick the right slot. And the best bit??....
> 
> ....Here's a code for £20.00 off first order - minimum spend £80.00.
> 
> VOU9459749


Legend!


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> Also struggling to find Glaceau. Anyone found a reliable source? You can get 24x600ml for like £15 off ebay...
> 
> @MWJB any alternatives that involve blending Volvic other than with WE? Thanks


Ocado usually has it.

Volvic, you can mix 1:1 with the Armathwaite waters (Aqua Pura/Asda Eden Falls/Tesco Ashbeck), this will lift the bicarbonate in the in the Armathwaite and give a GH:KH ratio of ~1.5:1 (meets everyone's ideal zone for boilers) instead of Volvic's 1:1.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

fatboyslim said:


> Legend!


I know


----------



## Phobic

what Glaceau mix are people using 50:50 with volvic?

I feel the need to fiddle with water....


----------



## Step21

I like 3 parts Glaceau to 1 part Fairbourne Springs (Co-op)

Also good in same ratio with Buxton (imo)

Tried it with Highland spring in that ratio but surprisingly didn't like it.

Never tried it with Volvic.

I was getting Glaceau in 12x600ml packs for £3.50 but it's still unobtainable round here at moment from supermarkets. Loks like Ocado might be the only option...


----------



## MWJB

Phobic said:


> what Glaceau mix are people using 50:50 with volvic?
> 
> I feel the need to fiddle with water....


You can mix it 1 Volvic:1-2 Glaceau for brewed (faffy due to different bottle sizes), or 1 part Volvic:3-6 parts Glaceau for boilers (and brewed), you don't have to be too precise, aim 4-5 parts Glaceau and you can't go far wrong.

+1 on @Step21 Buxton:Glaceau mix.

Highland Spring is good to mix anywhere from 1:1 to 1:10 with Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills - similar Ca:Mg ratio, so you can steer the GH:KH ratio by mixing different amounts.


----------



## stevenh

Anyone from Scotland in this thread? How does the good old Scottish tap water compare?


----------



## Step21

> How does the good old Scottish tap water compare?


Scottish tap water is regionally variable. Mine is not good for coffee. Glasgow water is famously soft and probably is quite decent.

Do a blind test and let us know.


----------



## fatboyslim

errr....am I being stupid or has Ocado stopped selling the multi-packs of smartwater? Waitrose no longer stock it.....

This is it! The end is nigh! The apocalypse draws near!!!!!

EDIT: This seems like a decent deal factoring in delivery costs too https://www.amazon.co.uk/Glaceau-Smartwater-600ml-Pack-24/dp/B00OD0X6UY/ref=pd_sim_325_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=9X65QFT1Y1GX2SFMRA9V


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Use this  link


----------



## fatboyslim

The Systemic Kid said:


> Use this  link


Yes I did search Ocado website but even following your link....I'm not seeing the multi-packs for sale anymore (they are the sparkling or flavoured versions).


----------



## MWJB

I mostly just see the 850ml bottles, but mixing at 5:1 with Volvic means each 850ml is used at the same rate as ~4L of Volvic, so you may not need to keep a big stock.


----------



## Step21

Problem at the moment is getting any stock. It seems odd given that Coca Cola are the makers and just a couple of months back it was everywhere.

I struggle thesedays to even source Volvic which again was widely stocked. Only Sainsbury seems to stock it and I'm a long way from Sainburys.

My supply of WE is almost done and tbh I don't much care for it.

Going to have to find a new blend or start distilling my own.

Exasperating!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

fatboyslim said:


> Yes I did search Ocado website but even following your link....I'm not seeing the multi-packs for sale anymore (they are the sparkling or flavoured versions).


6 x 600ml for £2.20. When our local Waitrose stocked Glaceau 12 x 600ml multi-pack - price was £4.20 so the 6 x 600ml packs are marginally dearer. That said, it's a much better deal than the Amazon one.

If you are eligible for a voucher, that brings total cost down too.


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Problem at the moment is getting any stock. It seems odd given that Coca Cola are the makers and just a couple of months back it was everywhere.
> 
> I struggle thesedays to even source Volvic which again was widely stocked. Only Sainsbury seems to stock it and I'm a long way from Sainburys.
> 
> My supply of WE is almost done and tbh I don't much care for it.
> 
> Going to have to find a new blend or start distilling my own.
> 
> Exasperating!


How about Deeside, maybe 4:1 with Fiji if you want to lift the hardness?


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> How about Deeside, maybe 4:1 with Fiji if you want to lift the hardness?


Thanks. Deeside I can get. Fiji I think possibly might be available in Waitrose - never seen it elsewhere. Any other Deeside options?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Thanks. Deeside I can get. Fiji I think possibly might be available in Waitrose - never seen it elsewhere. Any other Deeside options?


3-4 Deeside: 1 Strathmore makes for a mid range, normal/acceptable coffee water.

For brewed I don't mix the Deeside with anything.


----------



## Step21

Thanks. Isn't Deeside very soft? Probably need to up my brew ratio to 60g/l for that. But as I can get it, I'll give it a shot.

Strathmore is also available.


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Thanks. Isn't Deeside very soft? Probably need to up my brew ratio to 60g/l for that. But as I can get it, I'll give it a shot.
> 
> Strathmore is also available.


Deeside is about the softest bottled water from a UK source, but this will have no effect on your measurable extraction, compared to average UK water.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Deeside is about the softest bottled water from a UK source, but this will have no effect on your measurable extraction, compared to average UK water.


I thought the recommended GH:KH ratio was between 2:1 to 3:1 from the "Water for Coffee" book, although I read that there had been inconsistencies in the units of some of the meaasurements which may have changed this?

Deeside seems to be 1:1 ?


----------



## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> Highland Spring is good to mix anywhere from 1:1 to 1:10 with Waitrose Essential Stretton Hills - similar Ca:Mg ratio, so you can steer the GH:KH ratio by mixing different amounts.


 @MWJB that seems such a big range to choose from. What would be a good starting point? My preference has been 50:50 Volvic and glaceau so I'd like to get close to that if I can.


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> I thought the recommended GH:KH ratio was between 2:1 to 3:1 from the "Water for Coffee" book, although I read that there had been inconsistencies in the units of some of the meaasurements which may have changed this?
> 
> Deeside seems to be 1:1 ?


WFC book recommends ~1.3:1 to 4:1. I'm not aware of any UK bottled water that falls in the recommended range (WE Stretton is closest). Even at 1:1 which is still in the normal range for water, Deeside tastes great for brewed, I don't know whether it being softer impacts on this, but as water gets harder then 1.3:1 to 2.3:1 seems to be improve things.


----------



## MWJB

fatboyslim said:


> @MWJB that seems such a big range to choose from. What would be a good starting point? My preference has been 50:50 Volvic and glaceau so I'd like to get close to that if I can.


You can't get close to 50:50 Volvic:Glaceau., these are waters that are totally different to each other & WE & HS. If that's what you want, keep using it.

You have a wide useable range with WE & HS because they are not too far apart WRT TDS, same ratio of Ca:Mg, mixing them just changes GH:KH from about 1.3:1 to 1.8:1. Start at 4-5:1. The wide rage is in your favour as you don't need to be precise. At 4:1 to 10:1 this water mix dovetails with SCAA, SCAE, Schulman, Pergwater, WFC recommended ranges.


----------



## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> You can't get close to 50:50 Volvic:Glaceau., these are waters that are totally different to each other & WE & HS. If that's what you want, keep using it.
> 
> You have a wide useable range with WE & HS because they are not too far apart WRT TDS, same ratio of Ca:Mg, mixing them just changes GH:KH from about 1.3:1 to 1.8:1. Start at 4-5:1. The wide rage is in your favour as you don't need to be precise. At 4:1 to 10:1 this water mix dovetails with SCAA, SCAE, Schulman, Pergwater, WFC recommended ranges.


Excellent and insightful information as always. I just tried 1:5 HS WE and it was pleasant. I can tell the difference and I can probably get used to it while I try to source bulk smartwater.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> WFC book recommends ~1.3:1 to 4:1. I'm not aware of any UK bottled water that falls in the recommended range (WE Stretton is closest). Even at 1:1 which is still in the normal range for water, Deeside tastes great for brewed, I don't know whether it being softer impacts on this, but as water gets harder then 1.3:1 to 2.3:1 seems to be improve things.


I thought WE (Stretton) was 2:1 GH:KH? Are these calcs incorrect?

Ca:18, Mg:4.5 GH=(18×2.5) + (4.5×4.2)= 63.9

Bicarb :39×0.82=31.98


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> I thought WE (Stretton) was 2:1 GH:KH? Are these calcs incorrect?
> 
> Ca:18, Mg:4.5 GH=(18×2.5) + (4.5×4.2)= 63.9
> 
> Bicarb :39×0.82=31.98


Your calcs are correct, but the KH is low with respect to the ideal zone, if you assume +/-9ppm resolution, then I guess it just creeps in/is borderline for recommended zone (as it is for SCAA/SCAE/Schulman)...but even at 2:1 @ 32ppm KH, it's OK but not great, I always have to add something to it to avoid a dry, burnt sugar aftertaste.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Your calcs are correct, but the KH is low with respect to the ideal zone, if you assume +/-9ppm resolution, then I guess it just creeps in/is borderline for recommended zone (as it is for SCAA/SCAE/Schulman)...but even at 2:1 @ 32ppm KH, it's OK but not great, I always have to add something to it to avoid a dry, burnt sugar aftertaste.


Thanks. What is the recommended KH zone? 40 to 75?

I don't like 100% WE at all. I managed to get some Armathwaite from Asda which has a similar KH to WE. I've tried a mix of WE:AM:FS (Fairbourne spring KH 113) in a 1/12 ratio of approx 9.17 WE:9.17AM:1.67 FS, which has made a couple of decent brews but nothing special. Might tweak it with a bit more WE to AM. Certainly much better to my taste than 100% WE at least.


----------



## Step21

I wonder about the importance of sulphates v chlorides.

Glaceau has zero sulphates all hardness coming from chlorides. It makes up 75% of my favoured brew water which presumably mitigates the sulphate in the 25% additional bicarbonate water.

I doubt it's the only factor but just musing...

It would be useful (to me) to know the actual hardness of Glaceau. Might get one of those dropper testers. Unless someone has already measured it?


----------



## Step21

Finally sourced some Glaceau smartwater from Morrisons. Note they don't have any multipacks on the shelves but single bottles were in a small chiller located at the checkouts. 2 for £1, so not great value but not too bad.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Deeside is about the softest bottled water from a UK source, but this will have no effect on your measurable extraction, compared to average UK water.


Got some Deeside, tried a 100% Deeside immersion brew today on the same coffee I've been using the past couple of weeks.

Some subtle differences. I perceived more fruit acidity, a bit sharper, bright, still sweet, lower body. Not bad at all! Will certainly try it on some other coffees.

Is there a case for adjusting water depending on the coffee?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Got some Deeside, tried a 100% Deeside immersion brew today on the same coffee I've been using the past couple of weeks.
> 
> Some subtle differences. I perceived more fruit acidity, a bit sharper, bright, still sweet, lower body. Not bad at all! Will certainly try it on some other coffees.
> 
> Is there a case for adjusting water depending on the coffee?


Maybe, but I think life is too short  I just want to pick up one bottle & pour it in the kettle & brew...don't mind the odd experiment, or mixing a couple to make do if I'm short of Deeside. It's the best single option I have found - fruity, sweet, clarity. I wouldn't put it in a boiler though, without adding some hardness.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Maybe, but I think life is too short  I just want to pick up one bottle & pour it in the kettle & brew...don't mind the odd experiment, or mixing a couple to make do if I'm short of Deeside. It's the best single option I have found - fruity, sweet, clarity. I wouldn't put it in a boiler though, without adding some hardness.


I suppose that by the time you have weighed and sifted your coffee, prepared the refractometer etc... then mixing water might take you over the edge!


----------



## MWJB

Ha!  I'm not generally known for speedy brewing.

Any extra tasks can be done whilst the water boils, sift more often at work (just when I feel like it at home) but don't refract there (takes, what 30s?).

For drip brews with a gooseneck I just dump some water in it & go, mixing means pulling out the scales & weighing into the kettle...for no clear benefit over using a good single water. If I'd tasted heaven & it could only be repeated with a mix, then I'd fit it in. I don't mind following processes as long as they produce a result, not keen on rituals, or work for work's sake.


----------



## Elcee

MWJB said:


> Maybe, but I think life is too short  I just want to pick up one bottle & pour it in the kettle & brew...don't mind the odd experiment, or mixing a couple to make do if I'm short of Deeside. It's the best single option I have found - fruity, sweet, clarity. I wouldn't put it in a boiler though, without adding some hardness.


Thanks for this. I've been looking for a single bottle option for convenience at work. I've tried volvic so I wonder how this compares.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> Ha!  I'm not generally known for speedy brewing.
> 
> Any extra tasks can be done whilst the water boils, sift more often at work (just when I feel like it at home) but don't refract there (takes, what 30s?).
> 
> For drip brews with a gooseneck I just dump some water in it & go, mixing means pulling out the scales & weighing into the kettle...for no clear benefit over using a good single water. If I'd tasted heaven & it could only be repeated with a mix, then I'd fit it in. I don't mind following processes as long as they produce a result, not keen on rituals, or work for work's sake.


Mixing adds a mere few seconds to my procedure, so thats not the issue. All depends whether you perceive any benefits in taste or not.

As to one bottle solutions would I be right in saying that Volvic is the only commercially available water in the UK that falls inside or is closest to the SCAA recommendations?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Mixing adds a mere few seconds to my procedure, so thats not the issue. All depends whether you perceive any benefits in taste or not.
> 
> As to one bottle solutions would I be right in saying that Volvic is the only commercially available water in the UK that falls inside or is closest to the SCAA recommendations?


Not easy to say...SCAA recommendations were ~40ppm KH. Since they wrote that, the SCAE then published a paper incorporating Schulman & WFC's work. Now there is no SCAA/SCAE, just the SCA.

The only water I have seen that dead on meets SCAA recommendations (but not any others, but just within WFC acceptable) is Speyside Glenlivet...I didn't like it. Volvic is outside all of the recommended ranges, but it won't scale, scale & machine preservation are the biggest drivers behind SCAA, Schulman, SCAE recommendations. WE Stretton could be considered borderline 'in' WRT SCAA as the resolution of drop kits is about 8 or 9ppm.

The SCAE paper states that brewed coffee has more leeway.

Me, I just use what tastes best to me & don't worry about scaling or destroying a boiler as I use glass & steel kettles.


----------



## Step21

Thanks. So the existing recommendations are really based around espresso machines.

For brewed - going with the recent Water for Coffee book you previously mentioned a recommended GH:KH range of 1.3:1 to 4:1 ratio.

Does it specify the actual or approximate mg/l ranges for these?


----------



## MWJB

Step21 said:


> Thanks. So the existing recommendations are really based around espresso machines.
> 
> For brewed - going with the recent Water for Coffee book you previously mentioned a recommended GH:KH range of 1.3:1 to 4:1 ratio.
> 
> Does it specify the actual or approximate mg/l ranges for these?


It does, but they have kept their chart out of the public domain. It's not for me to ride roughshod over that.


----------



## Step21

MWJB said:


> It does, but they have kept their chart out of the public domain. It's not for me to ride roughshod over that.


Didn't realise that was the case. Buy the book and find out! I might well do once V2 is out. I don't really want to wade through a chemistry lecture...

My guess gleaning from Barista Hustle water blogs is that a 3:1 GH:KH is their "ideal" and I can guess what the Mg/l ranges would be.


----------



## Step21

Step21 said:


> Finally sourced some Glaceau smartwater from Morrisons. Note they don't have any multipacks on the shelves but single bottles were in a small chiller located at the checkouts. 2 for £1, so not great value but not too bad.


Waitrose selling 850ml bottles at the checkouts 2 for £1.60


----------



## Step21

When mixing different waters together is a proportional change in GH/KH to be expected or is there more complex chemistry behind it?

E.g Water A measures GH 30ppm / KH 20ppm and water B GH 160ppm / KH 140ppm

Mix together 1:1

Should GH 95pm / KH 80ppm be expected or is it not quite so simple?


----------



## Flying_Vee

Of all the coffee I've brewed in the last couple of years the Drop LSOL has me scratching my head on a number of fronts with the V60 and I keep coming back to this excellent thread.

Ideally I'm trying to use the info above to achieve a blend of bottled water with as much of my tap water as possible.

Calcium mg/l Ca98

Magnesium mg/ Mg11.0

Total Hardness mg/l CaCO3 290

Alkalinity mg/l CaCO3 252

Alkalinity mg/l HCO3 307

I've plugged some numbers in the spreadsheet but I'm struggling to interpret the results and spot which numbers are causing issues.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1czHUxYpOvM7rXnQotv7ekiMVwvn_vVn6PAUOVhRmkxo/edit?usp=drivesdk

I was up hoping someone who can read the water Matrix like some sort of barista Neo could suggest where to go with this and whether tap water blending is not possible in my case.

Lastly, has the dropbox of bottle recipes disappeared? Can get the link to work.


----------



## MWJB

Try 10:1 Deeside to tap.

I brew with straight Deeside in a steel/steel & glass kettle, but I wouldn't recommend it for a boiler.

Is this sheet easier to grasp? (add data in yellow cells, if you have "0" under parts it takes that water out of the equation). Only type in the yellow cells, the others self calculate & you'll lose the formulas.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sFlna9NfoA-DjU3zXJg2Byxp-Z37FzQwQ9TU-WqHdj0/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## Step21

If you could pass your tap water through a Brita or similar jug filter it would soften the water and maybe allow you more latitude for mixing with other bottled waters or using less Deeside (which is pretty much the softest available)?


----------



## MWJB

Flying_Vee said:


> Lastly, has the dropbox of bottle recipes disappeared? Can get the link to work.


Sorry, Dropbox went defunct, have now linked to a google spreadsheet...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K5R8vZq7lvpQpcB3FPPJtdFMHj9Emg0s1TEdIN5ZOBY/edit?usp=sharing


----------



## fatboyslim

MWJB said:


> Sorry, Dropbox went defunct, have now linked to a google spreadsheet...
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1K5R8vZq7lvpQpcB3FPPJtdFMHj9Emg0s1TEdIN5ZOBY/edit?usp=sharing


I have 3 copies of this saved on my PC in various folders


----------



## jlarkin

I saw this week that there are now 2 varieties of Waitrose Essential 2 litre bottles!

















They were just intermingled


----------



## MWJB

jlarkin said:


> I saw this week that there are now 2 varieties of Waitrose Essential 2 litre bottles!
> 
> They were just intermingled


Not a problem, if people were mixing Stretton Hills with Volvic, the Lockhills seems cloer to that mix, making it a better one bottle solution.

It's really the WE Princes Gate you have to avoid.


----------

