# Espresso machine recommendation? <~£500



## evoman (May 13, 2014)

I'm looking to buy a new espresso machine for my office. I currently have an old Gaggia machine (not the Classic - I forget the exact name). I would prefer to spend less than £500 and end up with something relatively easy to use - smaller is better etc (given it will be in my office). I pretty much never use it for milky drinks given the faff in an office without a sink, so the steam side is not critical.

Any ideas? I did a lot of reading through the forum, but haven't managed to reach a consensus! Cheers.

EDIT: okay, so after the feedback I am looking to spend more - now I need to make decisions! Also looking for a source. Will post a new message at the end of the thread.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Do you have a grinder?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Are you looking for a new or used one?


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Do you have a grinder?


Yes - and will probably get a new one later, but am segregating the budget for the two to keep sane!


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Are you looking for a new or used one?


Thanks for asking - I'd love to go used, but not sure I have the time and patience to make it work, so am probably going to end up with a new one!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

What grinder do you have? Some simply won't be suitable for a more expensive machine, which demand a much finer grind.

If you dont need to put money aside from your budget for a grinder then £4-500 will buy you a very nice second hand machine if you are prepare to wait for one to come up on the forum, nothing like ebay here, so you know what your getting









Otherwise you just kinda in the middle ground between the Gaggia Classic and machines that go over your budget. There is nothing thats a really 'worthwhile' upgrade over the classic at new prices until you get into the £6-700 range.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

evoman said:


> Thanks for asking - I'd love to go used, but not sure I have the time and patience to make it work, so am probably going to end up with a new one!


WHy would a used one require more effort?


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## Kyle548 (Jan 24, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> WHy would a used one require more effort?


All that baggage.

Got to treat a machine sweet or she'll never give you what you need.


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> WHy would a used one require more effort?


Well, basically because of what D_Evans said - you need to be willing to wait and look for the right option to pop up used, and I am not sure I have the time and effort to keep an eye out for a machine. I have bought a lot of used items for my other 'hobbies' (like camera equipment) and it takes effort, and the used market for decent machines seems smaller than it is for something like camera lenses, so the effort will be potentially a pain. So I could sacrifice the extra cost to avoid the effort, that's all!


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

D_Evans said:


> What grinder do you have? Some simply won't be suitable for a more expensive machine, which demand a much finer grind.
> 
> If you dont need to put money aside from your budget for a grinder then £4-500 will buy you a very nice second hand machine if you are prepare to wait for one to come up on the forum, nothing like ebay here, so you know what your getting
> 
> ...


I will have a Eureka Mignon from a friend some time soon to keep with with the espresso machine demand. I use a Hario hand grinder for the non-espresso requirements.

So what machine do you have in mind in the £6-700 range that might make for a decent option as a used target? I am not at all against buying used - I definitely prefer it - I am just not sure I will manage to track the used market well enough to find one of my targets used. But it would be great to have a sense of what those targets should be if I am being smart.

In terms of nearer to my target range, I have seen comments about the Quick Mill Cassiopea (a tick expensive for my budget) as being decent, and the Rancilio Silva. Are these sorts of machines not good options (since they inhabit that middle ground)?

Cheers!


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

Maybe I should have also said - I would also prefer to find a solution that is relatively reliable and low faff since it is in an office environment - so I assume something like a lever machine isn't going to be optimal. But i am open to all suggestions!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Caravel for espresso only. Within your price range

Small , reliable easy to service. No steam no hot water tap though but you could easily use a kettle .


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

I feel like if you are willing to go to 700, you may as well bump it up to 1200 and get a Brewtus.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Check out the Fracino machines, think there is one around the £700 mark?

Would pair nicely with mignon.

Cheaper but with slightly more skill needed would be a La Pavoni Europicolla.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Oscar potentiality at that price


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

OP, the budget you have set, is realistically a little low, to achieve much. Did you state what usage the machine will get and if there are any size reductions for you to consider. If you want new, then consider anything Bella Barista sell. Why? because they are the only retailer I know of who offer a 2 year warranty that is supplied by themselves, so if you have a problem you are dealing with them and not being asked by a firm to deal with the importer/manufacturer as the cheaper retailers actually do.

If you ring Claudette on 01933 273275 and tell her you are from the forum, she will look after you. The Mignon will be a good enough grinder for anything in that type of price bracket. The other way is to buy second hand. That is a giood route if you do not mind a chance, are handy with spanners and do not want a warranty!

This is the Arrarex Caravel refrered to. they are Italian from the 1950's to early 70's. Unpressurised, make a fantastic shot, but only ristretto size. Looks good, no steam, beautiful. Coffeechap has one for sale I think


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Is the caravel really a sensible option for an office? Just strikes me as something thats lovely to have at home but at the office it wouldn't get treated right.

In the £6-700 range you have the options of machines like the Expobar Office Pulsar, or the Fracino Piccino, or Fracino Cherub, or Nuova Simonelli Oscar (actually the best new price I have seen for this one in a while).

All 4 of these machine will be able to consistently produce great espresso, even in higher demands, froth milk easily and quickly and are all big steps up from the Classic.

On the used market, unless you know what you are looking for and can spot a good buy from a dud on ebay then you best bet is to watch these forum classifieds, even put up a wanted ad for a machine in your price range. It may be a month or two before you bag something, but if you want the biggest bang for your buck then this is the best option.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you want a small machine that makes great espresso, for drinks just for yourself , and you don't need steam ( OP stated doesn't require or want milk frothing ...) , and that's within that budget , then I can't see why a caravel wouldn't be suitable for an office as opposed to a kitchen .......?

Small enough to be packed away in draw or put on a shelf when not needed. Quick to heat up , doesn't have to be left on all the time or wait 40 mins for an e61 group to get to temp ........energy efficient ......

But then again you can make great black coffee with a an aeropress too...


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Expobar Office Leva single boiler 850 delivered for forum members.....1050 for Brewtus

Andy


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> If you want a small machine that makes great espresso, for drinks just for yourself , and you don't need steam ( OP stated doesn't require or want milk frothing ...) , and that's within that budget , then I can't see why a caravel wouldn't be suitable for an office as opposed to a kitchen .......?
> 
> Small enough to be packed away in draw or put on a shelf when not needed. Quick to heat up , doesn't have to be left on all the time or wait 40 mins for an e61 group to get to temp ........energy efficient ......
> 
> But then again you can make great black coffee with a an aeropress too...


Thats true, I just re-read the OP and most of the machines I listed are pretty big, you would certainly notice them in an office!

If it's exclusively for the OP and not anyone in the office who wants to use it then its up to hm to care for it, throw other people in the mix tho and I would be worried about a caravel. I also imagine its not great at producing more than a couple of shots at a time?

If its just black coffee the OP is after he may be better suited to saving his money and getting an aeropress


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Caravel can do multiple shots just like any other machine and just add water for Americano, plus it is beautiful


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

For just under £600 delivered to your door Elektros.it will sell you a Nuova Simonelli Oscar that has had an anti vac valve(so you can switch it on without having to have the steam wand open which lets you use a timer), an OPV set to 9 BAR and a professional Sirai pressurestat and you also still get the full warranty. With these mods it should in theory be very close to its bigger brother the Nuova Simonelli Lux in terms of it's capabilities. The Oscar is an HX machine with a thermosyphon heated group and at under £600 particularly given the enormous price rise from Fracino makes it excellent value for money.


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## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

Charliej said:


> For just under £600 delivered to your door Elektros.it will sell you a Nuova Simonelli Oscar that has had an anti vac valve(so you can switch it on without having to have the steam wand open which lets you use a timer), an OPV set to 9 BAR and a professional Sirai pressurestat and you also still get the full warranty. With these mods it should in theory be very close to its bigger brother the Nuova Simonelli Lux in terms of it's capabilities. The Oscar is an HX machine with a thermosyphon heated group and at under £600 particularly given the enormous price rise from Fracino makes it excellent value for money.


I've just done this and am very happy with it, I'll be posting an update with pictures and my experience with it at some point soon. Gianni from elektros.it is really helpful too.

If you don't have a sink available though, where are you going to empty the drip tray? It being a HX machine, it requires cooling flushes and as with any machine you need to flush after brewing to clean the shower screen. The drip tray isn't small, but I still have to empty it around every 3-4 shots. This might be an issue for any machine, but worth considering.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Warranty, warranty, warranty.......how much does it cost to ship back to Italy then (if it goes wrong!)


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

ignore me,,, , ,


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

RagingMammoth said:


> I feel like if you are willing to go to 700, you may as well bump it up to 1200 and get a Brewtus.


If i went up to £700 that would really be pushing the limit, so the £1200 is probably not happening, but thanks for the suggestion (i will definitely look into it and keep it in mind!).


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

New Cherub - £750....?


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

Thanks for all the insights - just to clarify in response to some comments. I have my own office, so don't share the actual coffee kit with anyone else (but make for visitors!) and I can go down the corridor to use a sink to empty a drip tray and do general cleaning. I have access to purified water, so fill everything in my office from a bottle and have no lime scale to deal with. I like a good shot on its own, but also often use shots to make an americano. I have tried to do coffee at work with an Aeropress, but it is too messy and fussy for use in an office without a sink - a machine means I can go through the day without a lot of ongoing cleaning...


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

How about this?

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?16203-Mint-condition-caravel-in-original-box-%A3400


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

Oh yeah, and as for size restrictions - I have a decent amount of space and head clearance above a machine is a non-issue. So while the machine cannot be absolutely massive, I can get away with one that is not particularly small.


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

The Cherub would be ideal for that - got a hot water outlet for Americanos - the only issue you may have is its size


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

coffeebean said:


> The Cherub would be ideal for that - got a hot water outlet for Americanos - the only issue you may have is its size


I've been looking at the Fracino models - I am trying to sort out the differences between the models that are in a similar price range - Cherub, Heavenly, Piccino - any simple summary of the differences? Why the Cherub out of the options - the presence of the hot water outlet?


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

Just to also follow up on the suggestion of the Arrarex Caravel - any currently produced lever models worth looking into? Not sure that I am up for searching for the right used one, especially for a model that hasn't been produced recently.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The Caravel is better than anything currently in production today in the small lever range, for a number of reasons. CC has an unused one and a fully overhauled one. I honestly feel, that anyone who does not either own, or have owned one is in a position to really comment on their viability.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've been in a similar predicament, hopefully rectified in the next few weeks

Your budget is logically looking at a used HX, Cherub or Heavenly.

Fracino have upped their price for new machines in the last few months by £100 or so.

You could also look at a used La Parvonii. (beautiful looking machines, fine for 2 shots at a time).

Non Milk based drinks Caravel. Again beautiful looking machines


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

coffeechap said:


> Caravel can do multiple shots just like any other machine and just add water for Americano, plus it is beautiful


I see the comment that you might have one or two available? If so can you send me details?. Cheers


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

Worth considering the NS oscar too


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

coffeebean said:


> The Cherub would be ideal for that - got a hot water outlet for Americanos - the only issue you may have is its size


I've never used a machine with a hot water outlet.does it work well enough and produce enough got water to use in place of my kettle at work? Like can I offer guests teas and use it to fill my press pot when needed or is it more for just adding some your water to an Americano?


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

You guys did it to me - I am now thinking I will invest more in getting a decent set up than originally planned. I even cleaned up my office and made space for a larger machine. I am mostly looking at the Fracino models (Heavenly or Cherub), but could potentially go for an Expobar.  I looked long and hard at some lever machines and decided that it wasn't suited for my needs. I am also starting to like the idea of the hot water tap so I can basically move entirely to espresso and americanos when I need a weaker coffee (instead of using a press pot when quantity is required).

Any thoughts on a machine more in the £700-900 range? Just go with a Cherub or Heavenly? If I could find a source selling the machine with a grinder I could also do a package deal and return the Mignon to my friend (but I would like to get another - would mostly consider it if I found somewhere offering the two as a package).

Cheers


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

May have a Cherub for sale soon if I get along well with my new machine.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If you're considering the cherub then it would definitely be worth chatting to jonc above, you would even be around your original budget.

The Mignon is a good match for machines in this price bracket, if you wanted to think about a better grinder the next step up is something like a Mazzer Mini, or if you can afford the space then a Mazzer Royal or the like.


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

jonc said:


> May have a Cherub for sale soon if I get along well with my new machine.


Keep me posted - definitely interested. Which version is it - I am not sure I have the correct sense of what has changed over the years, but it is my understanding that they switched to a removable water tank at some point, but I could be wrong.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Bella Barista do quite a few packages of grinder plus machine, plus you get their 2 year warranty for peace of mind.


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## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Warranty, warranty, warranty.......how much does it cost to ship back to Italy then (if it goes wrong!)


About the same as it cost to ship it from Italy I'd wager...? £20? So that's at least 5 shipments for the difference in price with the comparable Fracino models? For the benefit of having a manufacturer that's internationally renowned for making high quality equipment and a machine that you can easily fix yourself (from a retailer who would rather ship you spare parts for free than have you send it back), I think that is something worth considering.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

chinery, if you would like to arrange a quote, to send a machine via a european courier from the UK to italy, and back for £20, I will show my rear end in a local charity shop window of your choice


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Bella Barista do quite a few packages of grinder plus machine, plus you get their 2 year warranty for peace of mind.


I saw those - problem is that they only include either a Quick Mill Cassiopea as a cheap option or machines in the >£1k range (after the Quick Mill the next cheapest option is a Expobar Leva Dual Boiler). So that leaves them above and below my budget. I know basically nothing about the Quick Mill so haven't considered that one.


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## chinery (Apr 14, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> chinery, if you would like to arrange a quote, to send a machine via a european courier from the UK to italy, and back for £20, I will show my rear end in a local charity shop window of your choice


Warranty repairs do not require you to pay return postage. But having actually looked, I was wrong, which is a relief for the people of Newcastle anyway. I was being far too generous based on the fact that I was charged only €23 for DHL priority shipping to get it here in the first place. Assuming that the retailer can't arrange for them to pick it up from the UK for the same cost (which seems possible but I don't know for sure), it's more like £60 to send it via Parcelforce. Taking into consideration the likelihood of it actually breaking to the point where it is unrepairable without being returned, and assuming the retailer is unable to arrange cheap return delivery or willing to pay for the cost, and the fact that it would have to happen twice for the overall cost to match the more expensive options, I still think you're being a bit brash to dismiss the Oscar as even an option because it has to be imported. (But then I would say that, I just bought one *shrug*)


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Cherub and Mignon £1015, Expobar Office Leva single boiler and Mignon £1115, Expobar Office Leva dual boiler (Brewtus) and Mignon £1315

Andy


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## shad3925 (May 12, 2014)

chinery said:


> Warranty repairs do not require you to pay return postage. But having actually looked, I was wrong, which is a relief for the people of Newcastle anyway. I was being far too generous based on the fact that I was charged only €23 for DHL priority shipping to get it here in the first place. Assuming that the retailer can't arrange for them to pick it up from the UK for the same cost (which seems possible but I don't know for sure), it's more like £60 to send it via Parcelforce. Taking into consideration the likelihood of it actually breaking to the point where it is unrepairable without being returned, and assuming the retailer is unable to arrange cheap return delivery or willing to pay for the cost, and the fact that it would have to happen twice for the overall cost to match the more expensive options, I still think you're being a bit brash to dismiss the Oscar as even an option because it has to be imported. (But then I would say that, I just bought one *shrug*)


Like Andy(Chinery) I have ordered an Oscar from Elektros...this is the reply i received from Gianni in relation to a warranty enquiry I made.

"I sell for almost 12 years the Oscar and for almost seven years I sell online, the amount of Oscar sold online are about 850-900 unit

In seven years I have had back for repair only 8 Oscars, I do not say that there were no problems but they were all small problems that the customers, behind our guide, was able to repair by itself

The warranty provides that in case of problems the client has to send the Oscar to our shop in Italy"

Not a bad record really!!!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Chinery, relief all round then! No, I was not dismissing the Oscar, I was pointing out the pitfalls that could go wrong when importing in. We all know that most people are lucky in life but there will always be the exception to the rule, and as long as it is not you, then all is fine. Unfortunately though, statistics tell us that someone is not going to wake up tomorrow morning!


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

Quick follow up as I try to make a decision - if I get an HX (or similar system) I realize I will have to flush it to expel the over-heated water before I can use. If I get a DB is there any specific ritual that I need to follow to get it to work? Also, for an HX it sounds like I need a pressure release valve or need to deal with letting out pressure when it heats - what about in a DB system? I suppose the question is whether the DB wil save me work and hassle in an office environment, where I am not filling a drip tray with hot water every time I flush the system and I can just turn it on and let it heat up in the morning (for an HX I suppose I could get one with a pressure release to overcome that hassle). That could justify the higher cost for the DB ones I am thinking about. Cheers.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

evoman, a work around, for either system is not to fluch anything into your drip tray. On my machine, removing the tray is a pain, so I have a 1.5 litre steel jeg that does not look out of place next to my machine, and I use that to capture anything. The ritual flush needed for an hx is like driving a car and depressing the clutch! A twin boiler does away with that agreed. I would always say spend as much as you can afford, if there is a perceived advantage to you.

I think most HX owners would say that they were quite happy, as would dual boiler owners. me, I would probably go down the dual route since the price difference is not vast.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

evoman said:


> Quick follow up as I try to make a decision - if I get an HX (or similar system) I realize I will have to flush it to expel the over-heated water before I can use. If I get a DB is there any specific ritual that I need to follow to get it to work? Also, for an HX it sounds like I need a pressure release valve or need to deal with letting out pressure when it heats - what about in a DB system? I suppose the question is whether the DB wil save me work and hassle in an office environment, where I am not filling a drip tray with hot water every time I flush the system and I can just turn it on and let it heat up in the morning (for an HX I suppose I could get one with a pressure release to overcome that hassle). That could justify the higher cost for the DB ones I am thinking about. Cheers.


Regarding the HX machines as far as I'm aware it's only the NS Oscar of the lower priced HX machines that needs an anti vac valve installing to get rid of the need for opening the steam wand to release any "false" pressure while warming up. The dual boilers with PID rather than say a Fracino Piccino stay at a pretty constant temperature, and I would suggest that you only need to maybe flush a small amount from the group if you haven't used it for several hours as they all have some kind of group heating and temp regulating done by either a thermosyphon group (E61 type) or an electrically heated PID controlled group.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Elektros fit an anti vac which gets round opening the steam wand. It's easy to fit retrospectively too


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

Thanks for all the info. I didn't realize that the issue with pressure was not general - i saw this in the discussion of the NS Oscar and assumed it was a general problem. I guess I really just need to figure out how much I am willing to spend. There are trade-off between the systems in terms of energy use, usability (flushing etc), easy of filling the water tank, drip tray capacity, dimensions etc. A lot of those come into focus once the budget is determined!

The Oscar certainly seems to offer a lot of value for money, especially in some package deals. But the Fracino and Expobar are really attractive options! I'll report back...


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## evoman (May 13, 2014)

Well, decision appears to have been made - I put down a deposit for a Brewtus from Expobarista (who appears to need a new username). So I blew past my budget, but I also followed the basic advice here that the Brewtus would be an ideal solution. I still need to actually buy my own grinder since I cannot hold onto the Mignon from my friend for much longer (he wants it back!).

I was also really interested in the Sage DB, but couldn't see paying the premium for it over the deal I got on the Brewtus. Thanks to all for the advice received through this thread -


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The brewtus is one of the most respected machines in its price bracket, and at that price its a chuffing bargain. Congrats


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## Tiny tamper (May 23, 2014)

I think he is referring to the time and effort in hunting a second hand machine down m8 but I might be wrong lol


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