# R58 set up out of the box



## virgilns

Hi everyone. Hope this is the right place to ask these questions 

I've just taken the plunge on an R58 and Eureka Mignon grinder, coffee beans from Rogue (Taylor ST Baristas) and getting some good and some very bad coffee 

I've got a few newbie questions and apologise if these have been asked before..been reading through here but not seen specific answers yet...

1) I've not played with the PID yet, so machine is straight out of the box...is this a good thing or BAD thing? main boiler seems to be set to 105' which seemed high to me, but if its factory set this should be a good place to start???

2) i seem to have a very fine tolerance (1/2 an indicated increment) on the mignon to go from too fine a grind and get hardly any water through the coffee or too loose and get water pouring through... literally a 10th of a turn seems to affect the grind a lot...is this usual or an i doing somethign wrong. I'm filling the filter pretty much to the top when levelled out so hopefully have the right amount of coffee in there.

3) the tamp...Im trying to be even with it on every tamp but i guess this comes with practice. How much difference does it really make? enough to just affect the flavour slightly or enough to prevent the flow of water vs having it pour through as in the question above??

will get on to steaming milk another time...i think i need to get a good consistent espresso base right first. Last week had some lovely espresso shots. Smooth, silky and good crema. today, bitter and not nice at all...

HELP!


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## Mrboots2u

Hi..

1. try some fresher coffee

2. are you weighing in and out ( dose and espresso ) - this will help you with consistency

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios

3. Don't touch the Pid for now , get dialled in the ...

4. tamp - get the coffee level and even - aim to tamp the same way each time . Even and same pressure , IMHO roughly until you can feel no more give , but this is a personal thing .

5. are you purging a bit of coffee out the grinder between settings ( say 3-4 g ) so you get rid of old grind ?


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## hotmetal

I've got an R58 too. The temperature should be set at about 105-107 (as a useful start point). There's an offset of about 13°C so the actual brew temp will be about 94° if you set it to 107°C. Also don't forget it takes 40 minutes approx before the actual group reaches a stable temperature, (the 107° is measured at the boiler - the group takes a fair while to warm up, which is the flip side of having good temperature stability due to a s°dding great lump of brass on the front!

Grind, tamping and distribution is fairly critical. Also, if you are filling the basket right to the top that's probably too much, and could stop you getting anything out if the grind is too fine as well. You really do want some scales so you can be sure you're dosing consistently. The coffee needs 'headroom' in the basket in order to brew. Assuming you have a decent metal tamper, as a yardstick, the top of the tamper base should be roughly flush with the top of the basket after tamping - and straight/level all round. Any inconsistencies in tamp pressure, grind fineness, and dose, will have a significant effect on the coffee, the time it takes to pour, and whether it's nice or not!


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## virgilns

Thanks guys, good responses..

am using fresh coffee (well, it was roasted a week before i bought it and that was 10 days ago, so still ok to use??) and tamp is certainly level (top of tmp just above top of basket) even preasure is probably where I'm struggling at the moment.

I think 1st coffee of the day is probably before the group head is up to temp...preasure is there and i run some water through first to clean it, but may still not quite be up to temp.

will weigh the coffee output of the grinder again...had it at about 16g (ish) for a double shot and aiming for a 25 seconds pull, but am not measuring it - will get some measured glasses.

but what I'm seeing is a noticeable difference in pour between shots...something just isn't right. I'm using the grinders dose (timer) setting and relying on that to produce me a consistent dose...I hope i hood be able to rely on this...one of the reasons i bought it....

will have another play again 

its fun learning, i just need to know where I'm going wrong


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## wilse

Why not get a calibrated tamper to help you learn how to tamp reliably?

I've an Espro tamper, quite useful for getting it consistent, then you can move on, once you are up to speed.

Someone on here is bound to be selling one.


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## Obnic

virgilns said:


> ...what I'm seeing is a noticeable difference in pour between shots...something just isn't right.


this will almost certainly be because you are not yet building your puck evenly and the same each time. It's the art of distribution and everyone has to learn it.

First, use the same weight of coffee each time. Don't trust the grinder to get it right. You'll need a scale accurate to 0.1g.

Second, distribute the coffee *evenly* across the whole of the portafilter bed. Search 'WDT' this may help. Put simply you use a straightened paperclip taped to a lolly stick to stir the grounds until your uncompressed bed is the same depth and density at every point in the portafilter.

Third, *tamp evenly*. If your tamp is tilted then your puck will be denser on one side than the other. Put your fingers on the edge of the tamper so you can feel the sides of the portafilter as you tamp. Like Boots, I grind fine but tamp light rather than lean on the tamper. I find this leads to less puck damage.

If you perfect your puck building, water will move through every part at the same speed. You will get an even extraction. If you master doing it the same way every time you will be able to set your shot time with your grinder or dose.

This is a zen meditation but well worth the effort.


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## virgilns

Brilliant. Thanks guys...all good learning.

The grinder IS clumping and I'm just leveing with my finger till its pretty flat, then taming it flat (not wonky) but if the coffee is already clumped....

hmmm...really is an art huh??

Also not discarding the last ground coffee...it doesn't seem to keep a lot back, but will just grind manually next and discard a bit, trying a coarser grind but not directly into the porter filter and make sure, it's evened out first...


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## Jumbo Ratty

virgilns said:


> will weigh the coffee output of the grinder again...had it at about 16g (ish) for a double shot and aiming for a 25 seconds pull, but am not measuring it - will get some measured glasses.


I have the same grinder as you.

It needs only the smallest of turns to make a difference. I try to move it only a few MM , maybe even only 1mm when im adjusting it when its in the "zone"

also, making the grind courser affects the timed dose by increasing the grams delivered,, making it finer means less grams come out. So any tweaking of the grind affects the grams\ timed output.

Measured glasses are a measurement of Milliliters,, you need to weigh to Grams


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## dan1502

Not purging or not puringing enough can make a huge difference. Try making three cups in a row in the morning. The first will flow fast, the second and third should be about the same. So if you are having one cup then adjusting it won't work as you've been using the retained stale grinds. This used to drive me mad when making one cup a day as I'd think I had it dialled in then at the weekend make two or more and find the second flowed much slower. This was after purging but I soon realised I needed a longer purge than I'd thought. It's a shame to have to waste coffee but necessary to get it right.


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## DavecUK

1. 105 is a bit low, set the machine for 106, possibly 107, go by taste.

2. When you say you think it's not warm enough in the morning even though your'e flushing some water through...makes me think you are not letting it warm up for at least 35-40 minutes in the morning and the portafilter may not be locked into the group for that long...if not stick it on a timer and leave the PF in the group.

3. Try a different coffee from another Vendor (different bean type), you don't say what beans they are, some beans are quite finicky on grind, requiring a very fine grind, which can prove problematic for inexperienced people/cheaper grinders.


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## The Asgard

Great thread guys and in the same situation. Leaving the portafilter in the group to warm up with the machine is a good tip.


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## Lilybell2

Obnic said:


> this will almost certainly be because you are not yet building your puck evenly and the same each time. It's the art of distribution and everyone has to learn it.
> 
> First, use the same weight of coffee each time. Don't trust the grinder to get it right. You'll need a scale accurate to 0.1g.
> 
> Second, distribute the coffee *evenly* across the whole of the portafilter bed. Search 'WDT' this may help. Put simply you use a straightened paperclip taped to a lolly stick to stir the grounds until your uncompressed bed is the same depth and density at every point in the portafilter.
> 
> Third, *tamp evenly*. If your tamp is tilted then your puck will be denser on one side than the other. Put your fingers on the edge of the tamper so you can feel the sides of the portafilter as you tamp. Like Boots, I grind fine but tamp light rather than lean on the tamper. I find this leads to less puck damage.
> 
> If you perfect your puck building, water will move through every part at the same speed. You will get an even extraction. If you master doing it the same way every time you will be able to set your shot time with your grinder or dose.
> 
> This is a zen meditation but well worth the effort.


This is excellent all-around advice. You absolutely must have decent scales. If you're not weighing dose in/espresso out, it's unlikely you'll ever achieve consistency in your shots. Proper distribution is a must, as is good level tamping.... both are important but neither can substitute for weighing of dose and output, nor is that the intention.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Also make sure that, between adjusting the grind, you purge some grinds, otherwise you'll end up with grinds at different coarseness in the basket.


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