# Flair 58



## Bicky

I've been thinking of getting a Flair for a while now, not to replace my Mara X, but for a bit of pressure profiling fun at the weekends. Anyway, been holding off, waiting to see if anything came of the 58mm portafilter rumours. Well looks like it'll be launching very soon.....






• Newly designed lever engagement, now with a retractable piston, making back-to-back shots fast and convenient 
• The inclusion and compatibility of a standard 58mm portafilter, which provides the user with endless options on baskets and tools 
• An elongated lever with a T-grip handle that makes pulling shots easier and more comfortable than any of our other makers
• A built-in preheating system that self-preheats when turned on and does not require a preheat with hot water
• A new, integrated thermal management system with three settings to ensure proper brewing temperatures and temperature stability for extended pre-infusions
• A wider, more stable base that offers better counter grip and increased compatibility with espresso scales

(Above taken from the YT video description)

Anyone else interested in this? Any existing Flair or Robot owners thinking of getting one?


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## Chriss29

I've got a flair signature but very interested in this.

If I'm honest the preheat on the flair doesn't bother me as much as the cleaning up task after but I'm not sure they've addressed this in the 58.

I really like the look of it and at sub £600 I think it will sell like hot cakes.

Has the potential to be an instant classic but I'm certainly going to wait for some long term reviews.


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## Bicky

Unfortunately for me this does seem like it's going to be significantly more expensive than the current Flair line-up. Fine if this is your main means of making espresso, but not sure I can justify that higher price for something I'd only use at the weekends/on occasion!

Also I assume unlike the existing Flair's this isn't going to be portable, which again, for my use case, is a bit of a deal breaker for me.


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## Irisco

I've been watching this too and whilst it does look quite elegant , the introduction of the switch on a cable to preheat doesn't match the aesthetics they seem to be trying to create. It reminds me of a switch on a bedside lamp to be honest. I was a bit disappointed to see electrics now being added, surely that is just something else to go wrong and takes away from the simplicity of a fully manual machine?


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## NikC

I've a Robot which is very straightforward to use and clean, and was a reason I went for it over the flair. This looks interesting, especially the pre-heat capability although I don't preheat with the Robot, but if it is significantly more money than the originals and above Robot prices I'll be curious to see how well it sells (and of course how well it makes coffee, especially with lighter roasts)


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## Chriss29

NikC said:


> I've a Robot which is very straightforward to use and clean, and was a reason I went for it over the flair. This looks interesting, especially the pre-heat capability although I don't preheat with the Robot, but if it is significantly more money than the originals and above Robot prices I'll be curious to see how well it sells (and of course how well it makes coffee, especially with lighter roasts)


 I suppose that's a a good way of looking at it, what does the 58 do that the robot doesn't. If you don't need to preheat the Robot, the main selling point of the 58 is gone.

What's the Robot like to clean up? With my flair there's the filter, screen, piston, gauge and brew chamber, all of which get varying levels of coffee on them. It's not too bad but takes longer to clean than to drink the espresso. That seems bonkers now I've written it down 🧐



Irisco said:


> I've been watching this too and whilst it does look quite elegant , the introduction of the switch on a cable to preheat doesn't match the aesthetics they seem to be trying to create. It reminds me of a switch on a bedside lamp to be honest. I was a bit disappointed to see electrics now being added, surely that is just something else to go wrong and takes away from the simplicity of a fully manual machine?


 I agree on the electrics and like I say preheating is so straightforward anyways. I just put a wooden spoon through the chamber and rest it on top of the kettle. Intrigued to know how long an electronic preheat will take too. Surely at least 5 minutes. An expensive part to replace no doubt. Currently 1 minute on top the kettle is amble time for me.


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## emdr888

any thoughts on this Flair, I had an old original flair, but it was too much hard work with heating the damm thing. This new one seems interesting with the 58mm pf and heating element.

Note: merged this post with the existing thread, edit out duplicate video, removed your other duplicate post in the coffee lounge. I realise your excited, but try and keep your posts in one place without multiple posts about the Flair...we get it.


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## eyeabee

Having to plug it in sort of takes away a little of the manual romance don't you think? But then again the kettle and grinder are both electrical so whatever I guess!

The lagom seems to look sexier each time I see it though, maybe I have a subconscious thing for microscopes?


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## Mickmcgett

Looks good but theres nothing to steam milk if your into milky drinks. So kinda for espresso drinkers only unless they have something else to steam milk on.

For 600 you could get a la pavoni that does both?


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## profesor_historia

Mickmcgett said:


> Looks good but theres nothing to steam milk if your into milky drinks. So kinda for espresso drinkers only unless they have something else to steam milk on.
> For 600 you could get a la pavoni that does both?


You can cream milk very easy and with very good results in a French press, plenty of videos in YouTube.
Maybe a second hand La Pavoni, in the best case.


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## Bicky

Let's wait and see what the actual price is first.....they do seem to be shooting for high-end though, going by the materials used.



Chriss29 said:


> What's the Robot like to clean up? With my flair there's the filter, screen, piston, gauge and brew chamber, all of which get varying levels of coffee on them. It's not too bad but takes longer to clean than to drink the espresso. That seems bonkers now I've written it down 🧐


 I guess the 58 is much better in that regard, you've really only got a standard portafilter to rinse and the shower screen to wipe?


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## Mickmcgett

profesor_historia said:


> You can cream milk very easy and with very good results in a French press, plenty of videos in YouTube.
> Maybe a second hand La Pavoni, in the best case.


 Yeah i know thats how i do just now but its still not the same as actual proper steaming it.

Its a good substitute tho.

Few companies out there sell la pavoni brand new for 499 can get the professional 2nd hand also.


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## NikC

Chriss29 said:


> I suppose that's a a good way of looking at it, what does the 58 do that the robot doesn't. If you don't need to preheat the Robot, the main selling point of the 58 is gone.
> 
> What's the Robot like to clean up? With my flair there's the filter, screen, piston, gauge and brew chamber, all of which get varying levels of coffee on them. It's not too bad but takes longer to clean than to drink the espresso. That seems bonkers now I've written it down 🧐


 The Robot is really easy to clean: take the screen out, tap out the puck, wash the basket and screen under the tap, set to dry. Takes about 15 seconds.


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## Rabh

NikC said:


> The Robot is really easy to clean: take the screen out, tap out the puck, wash the basket and screen under the tap, set to dry. Takes about 15 seconds.


 As a recent convert to both espresso making, and the Cafelat Robot (had mine nearly a month now), I agree completely with this. The cleanup on the Robot really is that easy.

Definitely keen to see some reviews of the Flair 58 a month or two in from some owners, it has piqued my interest.


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## GSaleh

They've just announced the price at $529. A bit high IMO.


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## GSaleh

Bicky said:


> I guess the 58 is much better in that regard, you've really only got a standard portafilter to rinse and the shower screen to wipe?


 As already mentioned. Cleaning the Robot is really easy and thorough as you have full access to the shower screen to clean after every shot.

With the Flair 58, you'll either have to flush some water through, which isn't ideal, or take it apart, which again isn't ideal compared to a Robot.


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## Chriss29

GSaleh said:


> They've just announced the price at $529. A bit high IMO.


 And I think this will translate to £529 so yes agree seems a bit steep then again the Robot is around £400-450 so they certainly compete. I'm interested but will wait to read the reviews and to be honest maybe longer. Would like to compare a Robot to my flair signature.

How come the Robot doesn't need preheating like the flair?


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## GSaleh

Chriss29 said:


> How come the Robot doesn't need preheating like the flair?


 The water only comes in contact with the basket, which has low mass. I find that it's not necessary to preheat using medium to dark roasts.

With lighter roasts I preheat the basket by filling with boiling water with puck prepared and discarding the water and filling again. Seems to be enough, but it may also help to preheat the portafilter too.


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## Bicky

I assume it'll come in around £500. I think I've been priced out of this one, but perhaps if others upgrade I can snag a second hand pro/signature instead! 😉


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## Morningfuel

This sounds great but will depend largely on price as to whether I would consider replacing a cafelat robot, which is extremely faff-free for making good espresso.

It does still sound like it's less maintenance than a regular lever machine - no descale etc - which, honestly, it's the main pro for this sort of thing for me, so it might still have a market.


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## Roko

Is there anybody here who placed an order for a Flair 58? It's one of the machines I'm looking at, but can't pull the trigger, so many options.


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## Luca06

Hi Roko, I did 3 days ago. I thought the pre-orders were only for the US but it appeared to be open. So I ordered one. Dispatch in July. The order process wasn't particularly sleek, so let's see if it actually gets processed.

It probably won't be my daily machine. I thought about taking it on travel and occasionally to the office.

It did add a substantial amount for delivery and duty. Just walk through the steps on the website. This might put you off. Paid £ 505 so far.


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## Irisco

Roko said:


> Is there anybody here who placed an order for a Flair 58? It's one of the machines I'm looking at, but can't pull the trigger, so many options.


 I have my name on the waiting list at Doppio who will be selling it but later in the summer. I would rather bide my time that pay huge sums on duties and delivery fees. I also enquired with Flair about the 58 developing a fault and if it did then it would have to be returned to the USA if you purchased it on their website. Even people in the U.S haven't had there's yet , I think there was a problem with one of the components and the facebook page has been very quiet about the Flair 58 , I'm sure if many people had it they would be shouting from the rooftops. Not sure if I will purchase one, I'm just mulling it over and see what people think of them in the U.S over a period of time but thought I would have my name on the list in preparation. They will be making one without the preheat electrical component that will be cheaper according to Flair, depends how much you want the 58mm basket as other models will be cheaper still.


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## Roko

Irisco said:


> I have my name on the waiting list at Doppio who will be selling it but later in the summer. I would rather bide my time that pay huge sums on duties and delivery fees. I also enquired with Flair about the 58 developing a fault and if it did then it would have to be returned to the USA if you purchased it on their website. Even people in the U.S haven't had there's yet , I think there was a problem with one of the components and the facebook page has been very quiet about the Flair 58 , I'm sure if many people had it they would be shouting from the rooftops. Not sure if I will purchase one, I'm just mulling it over and see what people think of them in the U.S over a period of time but thought I would have my name on the list in preparation. They will be making one without the preheat electrical component that will be cheaper according to Flair, depends how much you want the 58mm basket as other models will be cheaper still.


 Oh thank you I didn't know about Doppio - is there already a price? I guess I could put my name on the list as well, and then decide.

The Flair without preheating will only be some 50$ cheaper from what I know. I wouldn't really bother!


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## Irisco

Roko said:


> Oh thank you I didn't know about Doppio - is there already a price? I guess I could put my name on the list as well, and then decide.
> 
> The Flair without preheating will only be some 50$ cheaper from what I know. I wouldn't really bother!


 I didn't realise only 50$ cheaper, that doesn't say much for quality of the unit then if that's all they knock off😩. They haven't said a price yet. Doppio and Flair seem to contradict each other. Doppio say they are waiting for Flair to release units to them but Flair says they are waiting to be contacted by Doppio. With all this dilly dallying they are missing out on sales.


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## Irisco

Funnily enough I just received an e-mail from Doppio this morning:-

We are expecting to hear from Flair US very soon (within a couple of weeks).

You will be notified as soon as we have any news.

Kind regards,

It may be here sooner than I thought, seems that they're finally singing from the same song sheet.


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## Mike B

I own a flair pro and a baby faema (although not a robot) and I think what makes this interesting and different is the heating. It's not just a way of preheating but also means the temperature during extraction is stable compared to the flair pro and the robot. Whether or not this actually leads to a better result in the cup is of course another thing entirely...


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## Irisco

Mike B said:


> I own a flair pro and a baby faema (although not a robot) and I think what makes this interesting and different is the heating. It's not just a way of preheating but also means the temperature during extraction is stable compared to the flair pro and the robot. Whether or not this actually leads to a better result in the cup is of course another thing entirely...


 How does the Faema compare to the Flair pro?


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## Mike B

@IriscoSo I've only been using the baby faema for a couple of weeks and need to experiment further. I have really enjoyed the shots from both but they have a different flavour profile.

Here a few random observations/thoughts so far...

The grind for the baby faema is pretty much the same as for my dual boiler whereas for the flair it's a good bit coarser. I pull the shots a lot longer (time) on the flair but the baby faema I've gone for 1:2 ratio in around 30-35 seconds and the shots have tasted very balanced but more delicate than say made on. The dual boiler. I'm pretty sure that the pressure is a good bit lower on the baby faema and I'd guess peaks at around 6 bar ..? There is a certain similarity to the shots I make on my Conti comocafe and I know that this gets nowhere near 9 bar pressure. I really need to do some head-to-head comparisons between the flair and the baby faema... If I think of it I can post something here 👍


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## Irisco

Mike B said:


> @IriscoSo I've only been using the baby faema for a couple of weeks and need to experiment further. I have really enjoyed the shots from both but they have a different flavour profile.
> 
> Here a few random observations/thoughts so far...
> 
> The grind for the baby faema is pretty much the same as for my dual boiler whereas for the flair it's a good bit coarser. I pull the shots a lot longer (time) on the flair but the baby faema I've gone for 1:2 ratio in around 30-35 seconds and the shots have tasted very balanced but more delicate than say made on. The dual boiler. I'm pretty sure that the pressure is a good bit lower on the baby faema and I'd guess peaks at around 6 bar ..? There is a certain similarity to the shots I make on my Conti comocafe and I know that this gets nowhere near 9 bar pressure. I really need to do some head-to-head comparisons between the flair and the baby faema... If I think of it I can post something here 👍


 That's interesting, thank you.


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## Mike B

@IriscoI might add that the baby faema is beautiful. Even if I am biased. I've got photos and a video of it in action if you're interested 😃 https://www.instagram.com/reel/CPViO9aIG76/?utm_medium=copy_link


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## Irisco

Thanks, yes it's very retro. I wonder how / if it differs to the Robot? The coffee does look good!


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## newdent

Mike B said:


> @IriscoI might add that the baby faema is beautiful. Even if I am biased. I've got photos and a video of it in action if you're interested 😃 https://www.instagram.com/reel/CPViO9aIG76/?utm_medium=copy_link


 Wow, the robot is so similar! I wish Cafelat had kept the ends of the handles the same as the baby faema (or round or something) as they are very uncomfortable on the robot. The 'hands' they sell separately should definitely be fitted as standard. I've not used them but they must be an improvement on the death spikes!


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## Roko

Irisco said:


> Funnily enough I just received an e-mail from Doppio this morning:-
> 
> We are expecting to hear from Flair US very soon (within a couple of weeks).
> 
> You will be notified as soon as we have any news.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> It may be here sooner than I thought, seems that they're finally singing from the same song sheet.


 Weird - I haven't seen any landing in the US at all (some components shortage of sorts). I suppose they're finally receiving the missing component(s) and thus removing the bottleneck?


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## whinmoor85

Flair have done a good job of hiding the power pack in the promo pics and videos - it looks like a laptop charger ????


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## Irisco

whinmoor85 said:


> Flair have done a good job of hiding the power pack in the promo pics and videos - it looks like a laptop charger ????


 It's so archaic looking, just mahoosive! I'm sure that will be one thing they will want to "streamline " in the future. It's like Naomi Campbell being coupled with Sid Large.


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## whinmoor85

I probably won't upgrade my Signature to the 58 anytime soon.

I like the look of the 58 and they've provided a solution to manually pre-heating the group head but it's that's ugly laptop charger 😬


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## DavecUK

@Irisco I suppose it has to handle a fair bit of power and be reliable...I don't think it could be made any smaller.


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## Irisco

DavecUK said:


> @Irisco I suppose it has to handle a fair bit of power and be reliable...I don't think it could be made any smaller.


 That's a shame.


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## newdent

After using the robot for a little while, the 58 is becoming more appealing. Have enquired as to when the UK distributer will have stock.


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## Chriss29

newdent said:


> After using the robot for a little while, the 58 is becoming more appealing. Have enquired as to when the UK distributer will have stock.


 Interesting, why so?


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## newdent

Chriss29 said:


> Interesting, why so?


 That's tricky because I'll be wanting to sell my robot and potential buyers might read my reasoning and be put off 😂


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## MediumRoastSteam

@newdent - Maybe. But what may be a concern or worry to you might not be a concern or worry to someone else.

For instance, some people would sell the Niche and then buy the Solo. Personally I wouldn't, but doesn't mean that's the general consensus. 🙂


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## newdent

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @newdent - Maybe. But what may be a concern or worry to you might not be a concern or worry to someone else.
> 
> For instance, some people would sell the Niche and then buy the Solo. Personally I wouldn't, but doesn't mean that's the general consensus. 🙂


 Of course, I was just kidding really, I'll say my piece. Various reasons.

First reason is personal, basically I reported a manufacturing defect to Paul at Cafelat and instead of him offering for me to return it and exchange or for them to repair, he expected me to buy a tap and re-tap a hole. Then when I re-tapped the hole and showed him a photo of swarf that had been cut because he'd refused to accept there was an issue (without even having it back, he claimed it was 'perfect', kind of egotistical, as if he's not capable of making a mistake), he said I'd used a cutting tap instead of a chasing tap (wtf, who does he think I am, a machine builder? He just said to use a tap, no mention of different types) That he would no longer give warranty on parts associated with that threaded hole, even though I followed his instructions. I know that the hole wasn't fully tapped, so can sell with a clear conscience and it's working perfectly and know there is no issue now. Wow, it still makes me furious to discuss weeks on. So yes, every time I use the robot it reminds me of this incident and makes me want to smash it to pieces with a sledge hammer! Ahem.

With that clear bias out in the open, I started to think about all the things I would change about the robot if I could (of which there are many) and the flair 58 would cover most of them, except the limited 'boiler' capacity of the 58, though I rarely drink anything over a 1:2 ratio unless the shot is running fast. I have concerns over the temperature management of the 58 but if it works well then it could really open up long pre-infusions for lighter roasts, which in fairness to Cafelat, was a known limitation of the robot before I bought it. I *thought* I was a medium/dark roast kinda guy but as the weeks pass I'm coming around to lighter roasts when I have them in coffee shops and I'd like to have the potential to brew them if I want to.


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## MediumRoastSteam

newdent said:


> I have concerns over the temperature management of the 58 but if it works well then it could really open up long pre-infusions for lighter roasts, which in fairness to Cafelat, was a known limitation of the robot before I bought it. I *thought* I was a medium/dark roast kinda guy but as the weeks pass I'm coming around to lighter roasts when I have them in coffee shops and I'd like to have the potential to brew them if I want to.


 Ha! I used to be a MediumRoastSteam kind of guy, but nowadays I'm more of a LightRoastSteam person. 🙂 - Funny isn't it how tastebuds change.

At one point I wanted to buy a Robot... But then I have my current machine... And, for sure, if I buy the Robot, I won't use the Elizabeth as much (and/or vice-versa).

I did hear about the flair temp management before, and the consensus seems to be that the Robot is much, much better on that front.

It's a shame you had those issues with the Robot and I'm sorry to hear. It's not a great experience after sales, but otherwise it looks like a well built and well respected machine.

I suppose now that there's a Cafelat UK store, this type of issue. would be much easier to resolve by simply returning it.

PS: If someone asked me to go and buy a "tap", I'd come back with something totally different... 🙂 - At least you had some idea of what you were doing 🙂

Thanks for sharing! 👍


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## newdent

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Ha! I used to be a MediumRoastSteam kind of guy, but nowadays I'm more of a LightRoastSteam person. 🙂 - Funny isn't it how tastebuds change.
> 
> At one point I wanted to buy a Robot... But then I have my current machine... And, for sure, if I buy the Robot, I won't use the Elizabeth as much (and/or vice-versa).
> 
> I did hear about the flair temp management before, and the consensus seems to be that the Robot is much, much better on that front.
> 
> It's a shame you had those issues with the Robot and I'm sorry to hear. It's not a great experience after sales, but otherwise it looks like a well built and well respected machine.
> 
> I suppose now that there's a Cafelat UK store, this type of issue. would be much easier to resolve by simply returning it.
> 
> PS: If someone asked me to go and buy a "tap", I'd come back with something totally different... 🙂 - At least you had some idea of what you were doing 🙂
> 
> Thanks for sharing! 👍


 Ha, sounds like you need a username change! I find myself trying my best to pull the interesting flavours out of my medium/dark roast but it's just not what I'm after. I keep ordering light roasts when I'm at nice coffee shops and it's definitely more to my taste right now.

I think using a robot might be a challenge with lighter roasts. A thick gauge steel has been used for the basket, which isn't an issue with dark roasts but boiling water from the kettle into an unheated basket drops the water temp to 92 ish instantly and it rapidly drops from there. It can make everything feel a bit frantic as you rush to get everything ready to prepare the shot. If the flair 58 can control the temp well then not having to rush will make the experience better and open up long pre infusions as a possibility.

I would say that I thoroughly enjoy manually pulling the shot. Being able to respond instantly to changes to resistance in the puck has been interesting and resulted in lots of saved shots that probably would have been gushers on a pumped machine.

Things I would change on the robot were:

- The portafilter. It feels like a heavy measuring cup and it doesn't reassuringly lock into place. It can sit at a slight angle sometimes which means the piston can go in on an angle and just push water over the top of the basket. It mostly happens when I've put too much water in but not always and I've ruined a few shots because of this.

- As anyone with the robot would admit, the handles are uncomfortable to press. Once you get used to it, you learn ways of reducing the strain but pushing onto thin metal bars is always going to be uncomfortable. Cafelat came up with robot hands that can be purchased and added but to me, this is admission of a design flaw and should come fitted as standard.

- The base supports are narrow and standard scales do not fit. There's also not much room between the bottom of the PF and base so only small cups can be used in conjunction with a scale.

- The tamper is sufficient but isn't a pleasure to use by any means. I find it frustrating that the basket is *just* too small to allow use of standard 58mm tampers. My tamper is 58.5mm though, so perhaps this is only my issue.

- The pressure gauge was a welcomed afterthought but many have issues with the pipe getting crushed between the handle and main body and keeping an eye on it whilst watching your extraction is tricky.

I do miss being able to use my 58mm accessories for puck prep and the flair 58 resolves this and allows use of the existing equipment I already own.

I appreciate that flair have looked at all the issues that currently exist with the older versions of the flair and addressed them, whereas I feel like cafelat haven't really innovated much from the baby faema, infact they've definitely gone backwards in some departments (handles, width of base, etc). I want to support a company that listens to its customers and flair certainly seem to be trying unless others know better?


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## newdent

I feel like I should add that with all the flaws listed, I still prefer to use the robot over my Rancilio Silvia, so take from that what you will!


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## Cafelat UK

newdent said:


> Of course, I was just kidding really, I'll say my piece. Various reasons.
> 
> First reason is personal, basically I reported a manufacturing defect to Paul at Cafelat and instead of him offering for me to return it and exchange or for them to repair, he expected me to buy a tap and re-tap a hole. Then when I re-tapped the hole and showed him a photo of swarf that had been cut because he'd refused to accept there was an issue (without even having it back, he claimed it was 'perfect', kind of egotistical, as if he's not capable of making a mistake), he said I'd used a cutting tap instead of a chasing tap (wtf, who does he think I am, a machine builder? He just said to use a tap, no mention of different types) That he would no longer give warranty on parts associated with that threaded hole, even though I followed his instructions. I know that the hole wasn't fully tapped, so can sell with a clear conscience and it's working perfectly and know there is no issue now. Wow, it still makes me furious to discuss weeks on. So yes, every time I use the robot it reminds me of this incident and makes me want to smash it to pieces with a sledge hammer! Ahem.
> 
> With that clear bias out in the open, I started to think about all the things I would change about the robot if I could (of which there are many) and the flair 58 would cover most of them, except the limited 'boiler' capacity of the 58, though I rarely drink anything over a 1:2 ratio unless the shot is running fast. I have concerns over the temperature management of the 58 but if it works well then it could really open up long pre-infusions for lighter roasts, which in fairness to Cafelat, was a known limitation of the robot before I bought it. I *thought* I was a medium/dark roast kinda guy but as the weeks pass I'm coming around to lighter roasts when I have them in coffee shops and I'd like to have the potential to brew them if I want to.


 Hi, thank you for your comments and I am sorry to hear about your bad experience. Please just to be clear for all reading this, you purchased a Regular Robot and used it without incident.

Sometime later you decided to do a DIY pressure gauge installation. After taking the Robot apart you removed the blanking plug from the piston, tried to install a non standard fitting into the piston and ran into problems. You emailed Cafelat instead of Cafelat UK, where you purchased, Paul helped you, and even gave you the link to RS Components where you can buy the correct fittings all Robot uses. I do not know until I received an email asking for the reimbursement. If I know, I would ask you to return the piston and the fitting then help to test/fix at once.

You then took it to an engineering shop or plumbing shop(?) and they concluded that the piston thread was wrong!

So Paul is flying blind as he do not know what has happened to the functioning piston after it left his hands and when you took it apart. If the thread was wrong how can he install the blanking plug? It makes zero sense to him. Since you were in contact with this 3rd party expert Paul suggested running a tap through it as there may be dry threadlock or some brass inside causing an issue. In the photo you sent to him of your 3rd party fitting I could clearly see the first few threads were damaged.

After that you did run a tap through the thread and cleaned it out. You then sent Paul another email asking for reimbursement for a 1/8 BSP Tap which we paid without question.

We are sorry if you found our emails abrasive but it is very hard not to be so sensitive about each machine. Every machine is really hand built, each and every screw Paul has to install and also tap the threads in the piston and then test with a go no go gauge. He has made thousands of Piston now and never had any single issue with a thread. Anyone who has ever made something and sent it out will understand that there is a horrible feeling of helplessness when there is a problem and you cannot do anything about it but tap away at a keyboard and hope it gets resolved.

In hindsight it was a mistake on his part to assist you with installing non standard parts. Paul regret this and we have learned from this. We worked for 2 years on testing and sourcing the highest spec fittings we could. We eventually settled on the Parker Legris items which have performed very well and rated up to 20 bar.

So anyway TLDR version is a Regular Robot was ordered and received and used without issue, it was taken apart to install a DIY pressure gauge and ran into problems. Paul did give you advice on how to solve the issue, you bought a tap cleaned out the hole, carried on installing your own parts, and we paid you back.


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## newdent

Cafelat UK said:


> Hi, thank you for your comments and I am sorry to hear about your bad experience. Please just to be clear for all reading this, you purchased a Regular Robot and used it without incident.
> 
> Sometime later you decided to do a DIY pressure gauge installation. After taking the Robot apart you removed the blanking plug from the piston, tried to install a non standard fitting into the piston and ran into problems. You emailed Cafelat instead of Cafelat UK, where you purchased, Paul helped you, and even gave you the link to RS Components where you can buy the correct fittings all Robot uses. I do not know until I received an email asking for the reimbursement. If I know, I would ask you to return the piston and the fitting then help to test/fix at once.
> 
> You then took it to an engineering shop or plumbing shop(?) and they concluded that the piston thread was wrong!
> 
> So Paul is flying blind as he do not know what has happened to the functioning piston after it left his hands and when you took it apart. If the thread was wrong how can he install the blanking plug? It makes zero sense to him. Since you were in contact with this 3rd party expert Paul suggested running a tap through it as there may be dry threadlock or some brass inside causing an issue. In the photo you sent to him of your 3rd party fitting I could clearly see the first few threads were damaged.
> 
> After that you did run a tap through the thread and cleaned it out. You then sent Paul another email asking for reimbursement for a 1/8 BSP Tap which we paid without question.
> 
> We are sorry if you found our emails abrasive but it is very hard not to be so sensitive about each machine. Every machine is really hand built, each and every screw Paul has to install and also tap the threads in the piston and then test with a go no go gauge. He has made thousands of Piston now and never had any single issue with a thread. Anyone who has ever made something and sent it out will understand that there is a horrible feeling of helplessness when there is a problem and you cannot do anything about it but tap away at a keyboard and hope it gets resolved.
> 
> In hindsight it was a mistake on his part to assist you with installing non standard parts. Paul regret this and we have learned from this. We worked for 2 years on testing and sourcing the highest spec fittings we could. We eventually settled on the Parker Legris items which have performed very well and rated up to 20 bar.
> 
> So anyway TLDR version is a Regular Robot was ordered and received and used without issue, it was taken apart to install a DIY pressure gauge and ran into problems. Paul did give you advice on how to solve the issue, you bought a tap cleaned out the hole, carried on installing your own parts, and we paid you back.


 I'll make this brief (ish) as I'm busy today.

I took the piston to a pneumatics specialist who had stock of pneumatics fittings Paul specified including manufacturers who they said were equal if not better in quality to Parker Legris and none of the 1/8 BSPP fittings would go into the threaded hole in the piston. They are experts in their field and supply pneumatics equipment to many machine builders and their expert opinion was that the thread had not been fully cut to 1/8 BSPP. They suspected that Paul's blanking plug was cut with a much more forgiving thread and because he was securing it with thread lock *and* a nylon washer, that it didn't really matter that thread was a lower tolerance.

As I told Paul, I used two fingers with the lightest of pressure to try and get the fittings started and so did the pneumatics suppliers, so any claims that is caused damage was. him trying to weasel out of responsibility.

If you want to try shifting blaim around I'm willing to attach screen shots of the emails to this thread so everyone can see just how professionally Paul handled things. I don't think your first suggestion to a customer of a new product should be to run a tap through it!! I thought he was going to suggest returning the robot, I was stunned to be perfectly honest.

I know he hand makes them and I was trying to save Paul money. What use did I have for a £6 imperial tap? I asked for a £6 reimbursement for the tap, which I thought would save cafelat the cost of two more sets of postage and a robot to repair. Am I glad I tried to help you? No, because Paul came back and said that the piston is now not covered under warranty when he's the one that told me to run a tap through it in the first place!!

Really just awful experience.


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## Paul Pratt

newdent said:


> I'll make this brief (ish) as I'm busy today.
> 
> I took the piston to a pneumatics specialist who had stock of pneumatics fittings Paul specified including manufacturers who they said were equal if not better in quality to Parker Legris and none of the 1/8 BSPP fittings would go into the threaded hole in the piston. They are experts in their field and supply pneumatics equipment to many machine builders and their expert opinion was that the thread had not been fully cut to 1/8 BSPP. They suspected that Paul's blanking plug was cut with a much more forgiving thread and because he was securing it with thread lock *and* a nylon washer, that it didn't really matter that thread was a lower tolerance.


 Ross the threadlock is to prevent the plug coming undone, the teflon (not nylon) washer does the sealing but is not a good threadlocker.



newdent said:


> As I told Paul, I used two fingers with the lightest of pressure to try and get the fittings started and so did the pneumatics suppliers, so any claims that is caused damage was. him trying to weasel out of responsibility.
> 
> If you want to try shifting blaim around I'm willing to attach screen shots of the emails to this thread so everyone can see just how professionally Paul handled things. I don't think your first suggestion to a customer of a new product should be to run a tap through it!! I thought he was going to suggest returning the robot, I was stunned to be perfectly honest.


 This was my email to you and I have bolded the part about the tap. I incorrectly made the assumption that a person who would take apart a functioning brand new product would have access to those things otherwise why not just buy the correct parts from us or return and get the barista version?



> That is the exact one I use. It is odd that the one you have does not fit. I can see the discoloration on the thread of your fitting so yes I agree it is binding. *If you have a 1/8 BSPP tap handy (!) it would not hurt to clean out the threads.* The other point to note is that the inside of the piston is very cramped for space, the Legris fittings I found just clear the little ridge at the bottom. It could be that the OD of your fitting is touching that ridge.
> 
> I agree the gauge is good to get a feel of the pressure involved and then after that you just go by eye and touch. I think I put a rough table of the weights and pressures in the user manual.
> 
> http://www.cafelat.com/uploads/1/5/3/6/15367184/robot_user_manual_2020.pdf
> 
> At the end there should be a table.
> 
> Paul





newdent said:


> I know he hand makes them and I was trying to save Paul money. What use did I have for a £6 imperial tap? I asked for a £6 reimbursement for the tap, which I thought would save cafelat the cost of two more sets of postage and a robot to repair. Am I glad I tried to help you? No, because Paul came back and said that the piston is now not covered under warranty when he's the one that told me to run a tap through it in the first place!!
> 
> Really just awful experience.


 My reply to you cut and paste from my email was:



> I believe Kristal will refund you the cost of the tap, but please be aware the warranty does not cover any work you have done to the machine. Anything else, sure we will stand behind it but not the parts or anything affected by the parts you have installed. I chose those specific parts for a reason.


 I said I will not warranty any pressure gauge system you would put together, everything else we stand behind. I do not know any company that would give you a warranty after installing 3rd party parts they are not familiar with.

We will update our warranty page to make it clear that any alterations using non standard parts will void the warranty.


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## newdent

Oh we're doing quotes now. Apart from *expecting your customer to perform manufacturing operations on their brand new product*, this is my favourite:



> Just to be clear, because I have seen the email you sent to Kristal, *the Robot you purchased was perfect*. It was your choice to take it apart and try to add non standard parts. I have personally made several thousand Robots now and I have never, not once, had an issue with a fitting not threading in.


 The absolute arrogance, as if you're incapable of making a mistake. I'm impressed that you can deduce the robot is perfect without taking one look at it.

You sell the parts to upgrade to the pressure gauge with video instructions on how to do it, you sell the parts to upgrade to a barista version, so what have I done wrong? I've used the Legris fittings you recommended so why:



> I believe Kristal will refund you the cost of the tap, but please be aware the warranty does not cover any work you have done to the machine. Anything else, sure we will stand behind it *but not the parts or anything affected by the parts you have installed. *


 What does this even mean? I have Legris fittings but I'm using a gauge I had handy from a portafilter pressure gauge kit. What exactly do you envision will be a problem regarding warranty. How is a 'non-standard' gauge, that's exterior to the robot going to cause any issues that would invalid date your warranty on the piston. You were extremely vague on what's not covered.

I'd have happy bought the fittings from you if you hadn't marked them up so much. You can buy a 5 pack from RS for £2.50 ( https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pneumatic-fittings/4454350/?sra=pstk ), let's say it costs you £0.50 per fitting (but I assume you buy in bulk and get a better deal than that) and you're selling them for £13.19 each ( https://www.cafelat.co.uk/collections/robot-spares/products/robot-fitting ). *That's a mark-up of 2600%*. At my old company, we marked-up stock by 30%. Then there's the gauge bracket that you admitted on video that you massively overengineered by accident because you didn't check the drawing before sending it off to be manufactured. Now you're passing that mistake onto the customer. £36 for a bracket and a gauge https://www.cafelat.co.uk/collections/robot-spares/products/robot-gauge when the gauge must cost no more than a few pounds (I found a 3 pack for £10). Talking about passing mistakes onto the customer - there's the hands that are solving an issue with your poor design but you're passing the cost on to the customer for the tune of £18.59. I can go on and on, but there's no point.

@DavecUK I'm bringing this to your attention as I am disappointed a manufacturer that treats their customers this way can advertise on your website.


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## El carajillo

@DavecUK can you please close this post as there appears to be no prospect of a satisfactory resolution between the two parties.


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## DavecUK

newdent said:


> @DavecUK I'm bringing this to your attention as I am disappointed a manufacturer that treats their customers this way can advertise on your website.


 Firstly, this isn't my website...although I do control advertising. I've known Paul many years and I am not aware he is in the habit of treating his customers badly. I certainly can't see any reason why the UK firm that sells his products shouldn't be allowed on the website...

Cafelat UK is the official and authorised webshop in the United Kingdom of Cafelat. We are not the same company, but we buy directly from Cafelat and carry the entire range of their products. (quote from announcement).

I'm not taking sides here, but I think a better outcome could have been obtained had the emotions and certain words, been left beside the keyboard. Trying to resolve it on an open forum this way was always going to make things worse..Just because Cafelat UK is an advertiser doesn't mean they shouldn't get fair and respectful treatment, the same as any member.

Most companies I know, and Cafelat won't be any different, want their customers to have a good experience, not a bad one.


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## The Systemic Kid

Kristal from Cafelat has asked for the following clarification to be included.



newdent said:


> I'd have happy bought the fittings from you if you hadn't marked them up so much. You can buy a 5 pack from RS for £2.50 ( https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/pneumatic-fittings/4454350/?sra=pstk ), let's say it costs you £0.50 per fitting (but I assume you buy in bulk and get a better deal than that) and you're selling them for £13.19 each ( https://www.cafelat.co.uk/collections/robot-spares/products/robot-fitting ).


 The prices he mentioned £13.19 included the selling VAT. I did not make any profit on these items. The information on the gauge he mentioned is absolutely incorrect. Our gauge is custom made in 25mm diameter with 16 bar. I wish I can find the one he said - pack of 3 in £10.


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