# new machine advice - circa £2k outlay



## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

I want a machine with the following:

rotary motor

dual boiler

non pressure profiling (can have the function but its not necessary as I don't think I want the faff - I would probably programme a setting to 9bar)

plumbed in and tank option (as I use a reservoir now but would like the option of plumbed in later)

PID

easy descale (bottom draining boilers)

leaver activated steam, and water (not twisty knobs)

lever activated group

preferably NOT fully commercial due to running costs....

I've been looking recently but I haven't found a machine with all of these features as standard - those that do do have them are nearer £3k and have profiling....

What am i missing?

If nothing is available I'm highly tempted to modify my current machine (Brewtus DB) and either use an external tank (so i can actually see I'm going to run out of water for once) or plumb it in anyway.

Thanks in advance folks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Are you only looking at new and not second hand machines ?


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

I don't mind - it's normally a case of long waits second hand which I don't mind, but would be nice to have a 'new' toy all the same.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

some of your needs are daft. Solve the water issue before it gets into your machine by using decent filters so there is no need to descale. Steam toggles as opposed to knobs.....does it really make a difference? Why do you want db over an HX with a thermosyphon? My Nota can make back to back drinks and steam far faster than my Profitec 700

The Verona has most of those things as does the Profitec 700....the Nota has most but is not a db, but owning one I would query why anyone would go past one unless they do not need the steam facility


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

It's just what I want.

Toggles Vs knobs, yes it does make a difference. I find toggles a better user experience - no other reason.

DB because that's what I'm used to and understand.

Reading between the lines - i take it I haven't missed something - but rather there isn't a machine with these specifications...?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

GS3 second hand price?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

VESUVIUS........I would stick a Wanted ad up for one.......you never know now


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Chris' coffee does lever kits for some machines.

https://www.chriscoffee.com/Joystick-Assemblies-p/jt995g.htm


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## dancing james (Nov 29, 2015)

I'd second the orchestrale nota suggestion. Ok, it's a single boiler but otherwise meets all the requirements. With its 3l boiler it can produce a lot of steam and the thermosyphon means there is no need for a cooling shot.

We are really pleased with ours (bought just in time for Xmas). We got one with joysticks for the steam and water wands.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Quickmill Verona and chage the wands yourself


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

froggystyle said:


> GS3 second hand price?


Think the GS3 is too much, both in inital outlay (recent one i saw went for £2.7k) and runnning cost



dfk41 said:


> VESUVIUS........I would stick a Wanted ad up for one.......you never know now


I think that's a realistic suggestion....



dancing james said:


> I'd second the orchestrale nota suggestion.......We got one with joysticks for the steam and water wands.


As standard or as an add on? Only one i'd seen had knobs rather than toggles....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?21582-Brewtus-joystick-mod


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

Get yourself a Slayer. You know that you want to and that you deserve to be happy.










Jeebsy's joystick mod may be slightly cheaper though


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

$90 for steam wand shipping..... excluding vat and import duty....that's a joke. I'm in the wrong business!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

bongo said:


> $90 for steam wand shipping..... excluding vat and import duty....that's a joke. I'm in the wrong business!


I asked an Italian supplier to quote for me the wands and in total it worked out more expensive than ordering from the states


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

I can do you a Vibiemme Domobar Super dual boiler for £1700 which has everything you want other than lever steam and water (it has taps).....at least worth a look (it is the one right at the bottom of the page!!)http://www.thecoffeebean-vanandroaster.co.uk/Vibiemme.html


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

bongo said:


> Think the GS3 is too much, both in inital outlay (recent one i saw went for £2.7k) and runnning cost
> 
> I think that's a realistic suggestion....
> 
> As standard or as an add on? Only one i'd seen had knobs rather than toggles....


If you speak with Claudette at BB, the Nota is quite customisable. You can have toggles over knobs and if you order it, I am not sure if the cost is extra. You can order a variety of different panels......white or black in glass or something else, plain glass to show the insides off or as James did, buy the etched stainless steel ones which look mint

http://www.orchestrale.com/eng/levetta_professional_domestic_coffee_machine.html

scroll to the bottom for the pictures. I bought a black glass panel for the right side and a see through one for the left. I also bought a stainless steel pf which weighs

about 5 tonnes and is the most tactile thing I have ever owned! I know you say you want a DB, but again, I am asking anyone to tell me why the advantage is, unless you want to switch the steam boiler off and save £3 a year on your electric!


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

froggystyle said:


> Chris' coffee does lever kits for some machines.
> 
> https://www.chriscoffee.com/Joystick-Assemblies-p/jt995g.htm


They can be fitted to a Brewtus

Ian


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

I can't see a PID on the nota.... how can you adjust/check temp?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

bongo said:


> I can't see a PID on the nota.... how can you adjust/check temp?


The great pid debate! If you want to adjust the temp you can by adjusting the valve, but, how many people with pid's actually ever change it? If you really want to play and record data and try different coffees at different temps, then buy a Vesuvius and do it properly. Can I ask if you are a Super Taster?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Everyone knows what I am going to say.

open you mind , think lever , buy an L1 and get on with enjoying great coffee.

sorted !


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Given how little attention is being paid to what you actually wanted in the first - perhaps I can end this thread with

I think you should buy the machine I Own

We can then all copy and paste our names below


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Given how little attention is being paid to what you actually wanted in the first - perhaps I can end this thread with
> 
> I think you should buy the machine I Own
> 
> We can then all copy and paste put names below


pmsl , you are on form MR B


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The great pid debate! If you want to adjust the temp you can by adjusting the valve, but, how many people with pid's actually ever change it? If you really want to play and record data and try different coffees at different temps, then buy a Vesuvius and do it properly. Can I ask if you are a Super Taster?


The OP said he wanted a PID


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The great pid debate! If you want to adjust the temp you can by adjusting the valve, but, how many people with pid's actually ever change it? If you really want to play and record data and try different coffees at different temps, then buy a Vesuvius and do it properly. Can I ask if you are a Super Taster?


You can do so much more with a Vesuvius than just change temps.

Want to mimic a Lever (don't really know why you want to do that) no problem with a V.

Experiment with bean prep to get the taste you really enjoy.

Suggest talking to Mrboots on the subject.......


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> Can I ask if you are a Super Taster?


In the words of Tyrone "course I am......" (Snatch, 23 Aug 2000)

Though if you've ever had the pleasure to taste my partners cooking, which i tell her is fantastic every time, you might be inclined to call me a liar....


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> The OP said he wanted a PID


he also said he wanted a dual boiler and levers ...... I think we are quite lucky that DFK is only suggesting a coffee machine with NONE of the requirements, it could be worse he could be recommending a dualit toaster.

quite frankly your needs are ridiculous what you want is a Breville sandwich maker


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

So, I think from this quick thread the options appear to be:

L1 (used) - just to please #Thecatlinux - no PID, no rotary, seemingly always recommended, ticks most other boxes, but the only experience of a lever (Europicola) was poor - preferred my gaggia classic

Nota (likely new)- hadn't considered this as not DB, but reads v well on reviews - though would need upgrades toggles and second pump for tank pressure from what I've read....

Vesuvius (used) - had been steering clear of this due to a couple of mentions of lower than expected build/finish quality, lots of electrics & faff with pressure profiling

Vibiemme Domobar (likely new)- and upgrade to toggles (if possible)


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

You forgot the Slayer + mortgage extension

If I were you I would work out which are the must have deal breaker features and see what you have in the pool if you discard some or all of the rest

E.g. La Spaz Vivaldi has everything but tank and toggles (I happen to agree with you on the joystick v knob debate)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

@h1udd

I feel I must spring to my defence! The Nota does have toggles as an option and is also a rotary pump. I have a Nota and a DB and I can tell you point blank, it is easier to use especially if making back to back drinks than a DB as the 3 litre boiler does not dip in temp when you pull a shot off. There are only 2 Nota owners on the forum, so thats a lot of people who have not had the chance to have a play. So, thats not quite no matches! @bongo.....the second pump is not needed. The idea is if you are pulling a shot and the water runs out, the pump kicks in (No idea why if the resevoir is empty). I have heard that as interesting as this is, it has been problematical and BB do not recommend it, also, if you plumb it is it is redundant.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

bongo said:


> L1 (used) - just to please #Thecatlinux - no PID, no rotary, seemingly always recommended, ticks most other boxes, but the only experience of a lever (Europicola) was poor - preferred my gaggia classic


Somewhat akin to saying you'd never buy a Ferrari because you once drove a red Ford Mondeo and it was poor.

I'm not suggesting you buy an L1, but a europiccola is not indicative of the Londinium experience.


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

well I've got to head to London next week to get a new toy (grinder) so might make a day of it and head to BB as my day will be over anyway....then I can try a couple... though tbh the nota is ahead by a nose atm... just be good to see it / try it

same goes for the others


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Will be very interested to see what you end up with.


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## NickdeBug (Jan 18, 2015)

bongo said:


> well I've got to head to London next week to get a new toy (grinder) so might make a day of it and head to BB as my day will be over anyway....then I can try a couple... though tbh the nota is ahead by a nose atm... just be good to see it / try it
> 
> same goes for the others


The Nota looks like an interesting machine, with one downside. Whilst looks aren't everything and are always subjective, this is one machine that will have to rely on its personality as far as I am concerned.

Fugly!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

bongo said:


> well I've got to head to London next week to get a new toy (grinder) so might make a day of it and head to BB as my day will be over anyway....then I can try a couple... though tbh the nota is ahead by a nose atm... just be good to see it / try it
> 
> same goes for the others


 @bongo, you probably know this but give them a ring so they can book you in and give you the time you need look and compare machines.


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

You should get a Nota, it is within budget but you need to buy a cardboard box to hide it under when not in use.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So why did you want a pid then . I'm lost


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## bongo (Apr 20, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> So why did you want a pid then . I'm lost


a few reasons - i do like to monitor temp fluctuations, and many new machines have a timer built in which i think is really handy.

as no machine seems to have hit the nail on the head, ie nothing is a stand out leader, the nota seems to tick most boxes. It is HUGE though looking at a couple of videos online.

One thing I do like about the expobar is it's petite sive


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is a tardis! It is not that big.....fits under the shelf in my hut with cups on ok, as does the pro 700


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## TomBurtonArt (Jan 18, 2015)

ECM Heidelberg Controvento? If you can get it VAT free?

Oh. It's £4k. My bad.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The great pid debate! If you want to adjust the temp you can by adjusting the valve, but, how many people with pid's actually ever change it? If you really want to play and record data and try different coffees at different temps, then buy a Vesuvius and do it properly. Can I ask if you are a Super Taster?


There's more to PID than just temp changes, a well tuned PID will give you faster recovery, steady temps and none of that shity clicking of the pstat.

T.


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