# Strong coffee



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

There's been a few posts recently where people have said they do/don't like 'strong' coffee.

What does this mean to you? Roasty/dark flavours? High tds? Low extraction ratio/ristretto type shots? High caffeine content? Big input?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Well, I don't like dark roasted beans for sure mainly because I find such roasts lacking in complexity. As for 'strong' I try to dose as low as I can - 15-16grms for espresso as I find the flavour is more tasty - above that, flavours seem to get clogged together and more difficult to pick out. That said, grinder and machine play a big part in how low you can go, dose-wise.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Spock says TDS


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It means nothing to me in the general sense, but I think that bitterness is also a driver for perceptions of "strength" too (e.g. "I like a bit of a bitter kick, let's you know you've had something"?).

Also mouthfeel, for brewed I'm quite happy with unfiltered/metal filtered steeped coffee at the low end of normal (~1.15%TDS), but I like a Clever brew more like 1.5%TDS, my guess being effect of filter papers & filtering of the coffee by the bed itself removing a proportion of non-dissolved solids.

I also wonder about the amount of dissolved coffee in a beverage for a given size...say you have a concentrated medium sized cup, then a weaker large cup but with more dissolved solids - you'll typically finish both, but may have a stronger reaction after the event from ingesting more coffee by weight (presumably caffeine too) in the larger, weaker cup?

But they way it makes most real world/practical sense to me personally (ignoring perceptions based on flavour attributes, which maybe I shouldn't) is dry dose/beverage weight, like an espresso brew ratio...though I like espresso over a wide range. I typically tend to find I like brewed coffee between 6.5% & 7%, maybe up to 8% for Clever.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Spock says TDS


I don't know on that score. I don't think it's that linear?...I'd reckon most folk would find a 2%TDS brewed coffee pretty powerful in just a few sips....but for the same dose & EY might find a 4%TDS espresso "weak"?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

My thoughts .....

Strong coffee would normally be a comment from someone who doesnt get into the technicalities of coffee so TDS, ristretto etc would not enter into their view of the coffee.

Beyond that Id say that strong could mean bitter, dark roast, high caffeine espresso or just a decent coffee rather than powdered muck


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

working dog said:


> My thoughts .....
> 
> Strong coffee would normally be a comment from someone who doesnt get into the technicalities of coffee so TDS, ristretto etc would not enter into their view of the coffee.
> 
> Beyond that Id say that strong could mean bitter, dark roast, high caffeine espresso or just a decent coffee rather than powdered muck


 completely agree with the above and MWJB comments re bitter

The TDS comment was what I would define as strong coffee . I completely understand there I am in the minority with this though ...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I think that from the perspective of Joe Public then the ones that do actually buy either pre ground or beans will probably get the whole 1-6 scale most packets of these have on the packet in the supermarket and wil more than likely be judging that as 1 = weak 6 = strong in much the same way the whole 1-5 scale works with cheeses. There again I had a friend that defined strong coffee as 2-3 teaspoons of Nescafe Alta Rica with 3 teaspoons of sugar ( hmm weird spelling checker thinks nescafe ought to be safeness lol).

For me personally I would say that it possibly to have strongly flavoured coffee at any roast level and that some beans have a much more subtle range of tastes, interestingly again I would suggest that the public in general would consider espresso to be the stronger coffee as it should be the more intensely flavoured beverage.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

To joe public What is coffee flavour thou ? Bitterness? Dark dark co chocolate ? Dunno , will never know. ....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

working dog said:


> My thoughts .....
> 
> Strong coffee would normally be a comment from someone who doesnt get into the technicalities of coffee so TDS, ristretto etc would not enter into their view of the coffee.


Well a ristretto is a shot made with a regular dose, but with less water, so a higher coffee to water ratio...I think this is a fairly accessible concept?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Well a ristretto is a shot made with a regular dose, but with less water, so a higher coffee to water ratio...I think this is a fairly accessible concept?


Someone on the forum called a 1:1.4 ratio strong which in part promoted this thread


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

In general terms, IMO, strong doesn't mean much and it is pretty much a subjective perception.

However I have used the term (strong) in relation to a specific coffee to indicate a lower in/out ratio.

In that sense I have used the term (and I sure will again) to mean that (for a specific coffee) a Ristretto is "stronger" than a Lungo.

Or a 1:1.4 ratio is "Stronger" than a 1:2 or 1:3 ratio.

Let's look at it differently, 30gm of liquid (espresso) coffee require 20gm ground at 1:1.5 ratio, whereas it only require 10gm at 1:3 ratio

The Ristretto uses double coffee grounds, it has double caffeine, etc&#8230; thus I think I could be forgiven for calling the Ristretto a "Stronger" coffee.

Anyway, I am not the only one. This is from the dictionary as one of the definitions of "Strong":

"(of a solution or drink) containing a large proportion of a particular substance; concentrated."


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Strong =

3 or more spoonfuls of Nescafé in a normal sized mug.

Or

Filter coffee left on the hot plate for more than four hours.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It's "ristretto" range whichever way you look at it, so I'd say the description of "strong" has merit? Plus the non-dissolved solids will make the drink feel thicker/more viscous, even if a little underextracted and TDS is technically on par with a slightly longer shot?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Obnic said:


> Filter coffee left on the hot plate for more than four hours.


I think that's more "damaged" than strong?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Wando64 said:


> In general terms, IMO, strong doesn't mean much and it is pretty much a subjective perception.
> 
> However I have used the term (strong) in relation to a specific coffee to indicate a lower in/out ratio.
> 
> ...


I think your assessment is pretty spot on (if you equate strength to concentration), plus more objective than subjective.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> To joe public What is coffee flavour thou ? Bitterness? Dark dark co chocolate ? Dunno , will never know. ....


Me neither, but what I meant by strongly flavoured is that some coffee, however it is roasted can be dominated by a range of very up front flavours take blueberries and some Ethiopian beans as an example whereas others may have a larger range of more subtle flavours.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Obnic said:


> Strong =
> 
> 3 or more spoonfuls of Nescafé in a normal sized mug.
> 
> ...


I'm not really sure that 'strong' is a helpful term for describing a sincere effort to make good coffee.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Would strong be a useful adjective for an alcoholic drink? It's probably one of the first things that comes into my head when thinking of old school cocktails, probably because they taste very boozy so it relates to high alcohol content. Not sure there's a correlation for drinks with a high 'coffee' content though


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ABV as a percentage doesn't seem that far removed from TDS as a percentage? Beers & wines still have relevant ABV whether pale or dark & very different flavour profiles, we expect spirits to have 10x more ABV per ml, just as espresso might have 10x more coffee per g compared to brewed?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Here you go

Quick google of strong coffee and heres the result*.

Luuuurvley !










* this comment may not be factually accurate


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

working dog said:


> Here you go
> 
> Quick google of strong coffee and heres the result*.
> 
> ...


They post may not actually show real coffee........


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

Ive just got a dark roast, much darker than im used to.. As much as its nice, it is very strong and a real bugger to dial in... Im finding it needs a much coarser grind and im getting very dark orange crema... Im sticking to 18g for a double but to be fair i might try a lower dose and see how i get on... But i agree it lacks that complexity of lighter roasts... So i assume its the higher roast that gives coffee that stronger generic coffee flavour??


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