# Sticky  Beginners Reading - Weighing Espresso - Brew Ratios



## Mrboots2u

Part 1

Before starting to read, this post isn't about what brew ratio one should use, or what is the best dose to start with, but more a general reference as to why you 'might' want to entertain the idea of using scales and weight to help you make an espresso.

It is an often asked question as to why someone should buy scales, and start measuring your dose of coffee and the espresso it makes by weight.

But nearly all people when making espresso will measure to one degree or another - just in different ways, and with more or less accuracy.

For example you could;

-Measure your dose (the amount of coffee you are using) by filling up some portions of your grinder's doser, using a scoop or spoon, or levelling / scraping off ground coffee from a basket or setting your on-demand grinder to run for X seconds

-Measure your espresso (the amount of coffee that's made) via lines on a shot glass, or eyeballing the level in your favourite cup or stop it when it goes a different colour, or stop it after the same amount of time each shot

These are all forms of measuring, with a view to having some way of adjusting the variables in espresso to achieve a desired taste.

I would think that most forum members are using a combination of some of the above to help achieve a drink they like the taste of.

So measurement isn't a bad thing, everyone uses it. Weighing and using scales is a different and I would say more accurate method of measuring.

Why Weigh and Use scales ?

Again its measuring, just in a different way, to a more accurate level.

It also allows us to create and use a comparative/similar language and compare recipes and variables used (recipe being the amount of coffee used in weight vs amount of espresso it makes, over a period of time)

Frequently asked questions...

What do I weigh?

Measure the weight of coffee you are using, preferably after it is ground, preferably to the nearest 0.1g

Measure the weight of the espresso it makes, again to 0.1g if you can. Do not concern yourself with how much volume this is. Focus on the weight only.

Why is weighing my espresso better or more accurate than judging it by volume ?

1g of water equates roughly to 1ml of water

1ml of espresso doesn't equate to 1g of espresso though - weight is more accurate.

Where do you measure your volume to, at the peak of the crema?, or when it subsidies?

Also different coffees produce different amounts of crema. This isn't really giving you a common language or measurement to talk to other people about.

Weighing then allows you to have accurate measurements of two of the variables in espresso making and therefore either keep them constant or be able to make accurate changes and see the effects of them.

Weighing also allows you to talk in terms of a recipe or brew ratio, that you can use with other people.

example; I used an 18g dose of coffee to make 36g of espresso in 30 seconds

This along with a commentary on the taste (balanced, bitter, sweet, sour) allows other people to suggest how to improve the taste by changing some of the variables involved.

Next - How to Weigh - Brew Ratios Simplified.......

Article written by MrBoots2u

Credit & thanks to Andy Schecter whose work on brew ratio based on mass makes all our coffee lives a better place

Thanks To Glenn and MWJB for suggestions and error checking


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## Mrboots2u

Part 2

Again, before you start reading this, lets address what this isn't about so you aren't disappointed.

This isn't about perfect distribution or dosing techniques.

This isn't the only way to weigh, and whatever process you use will be dependant on the grinder, the scales, and the machine you use.

The examples used of a dose and weight of espresso made are simply only examples, based on the coffee, grinder and setting, and the machine I am using

These are not gospel, just examples.

At the end of this article the reader should understand what parts of the espresso making process need weighing, and a couple of suggestions on how.

You will need some scales that measure to 0.1 g accuracy and that will fit whatever cup or cups you want to make your espresso in.

There are plenty of these in eBay for around £5 ish and plenty of threads recommending which ones to use on the forum.

At the end of the process we will have two accurate measurements

- the amount of coffee in the portafilter by weight

- the amount of espresso in the cup by weight

How you grind your coffee, and into what, will be dependant on the grinder you have, and there are lots of different ones

What you need to know is the amount of ground coffee that you are going to use in the espresso making process

Choose what you are going to put your ground coffee into

Here are some examples

- the basket itself

- straight into the portafilter

- a receptacle of your choice

Tare the scales (this zeroes them)

Grind your coffee into that weapon of your choice

Adjust the amount out to the exact dose you want

Distribute and tamp level ready for extraction

Below are a couple of examples

One I have ground the coffee direct into the basket and weighed

  

  

One where the coffee has gone direct into the porta-filter to be weighed ready to be prepared

  

  

As long as you have an accurate weight of coffee being used then whatever method you choose is fine

I would aim to keep it simple, and not have to transfer the coffee ground from a number of receptacles before levelling and tamping though

Next we want to weigh that espresso we make

You should have in your mind an idea of the amount of espresso you want to make (in my example I'm aiming for 36g of espresso)

Choose your cup or shot glass

Put it on the scales , Tare the scales to zero

  

Put under your portafilter and start the shot

  

Watch the weight on the scales

Aim to stop the shot when you hit the required target weight out (depending on your scale, there may be some lag and you will have to stop the shot before your target weight)

Take a note of the time this took if you're using a timer

I was pretty close to my target

As an aside if you are measuring by weight don't get hung up on how big or small in volume your espresso is. Your measurement is weight not volume in this process.

It may look a lot less than a 2 fl ounce shots you have previously prepared

36 g of espresso here looks like this as a volume

  

this is fine, this is normal

At this point what we are interested in is how it tastes, not how much of it there is at this point

Taste it ..

We now have a recipe we can discuss with others

"I dosed 18g of coffee and made 36g of espresso in 27 seconds"

With the some added basic commentary on the taste it allows other people to try and replicate it, or to make suggestions based on how it tastes (sour, bitter, weak, strong)

The white large scales in the photos are Acaia scales .

These posts are in no way original or my own work but merely a summation of the knowledge gained on the forum in my time

Article written by MrBoots2u


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## Mrboots2u

Part 3

We now have a brew recipe - How does this help me, and what can I do with it?

*Let's recap first&#8230;*

A brew ratio refers to the weight of coffee grounds in relation to the weight of espresso in the cup.

By changing the weight of the coffee dose, or the weight of liquid espresso in a shot, we therefore change the brew ratio.

Changing a brew ratio alone will change the taste, balance and mouthfeel of a drink - but adjusting the grind as well will restore flavour balance at different ratios.

As an aside, different brew ratios can be used to refer to varying descriptions of neat espresso, but what we are really describing is espresso of differing strengths, viscosity and mouth-feel.

For instance, a brew ratio of



1:1 to 1:5 (18 grams in - 18.0 to 26.0 grams out) might be termed as a "ristretto" espresso.


1:1.6 to a 1:2.5 ratio might be termed as a "normale" espresso.


1:3 and over might be termed as a "lungo" espresso.


One could use the same bean and make an espresso using each of these ratios, then taste each shot to help understand the difference in clarity, balance and mouthfeel between them.

This will give an idea of what kind of strength and mouth-feel someone prefers.

Ultimately it is about preference and what you like in the cup

A brew ratio will help you replicate that.

So if you are new to espresso, or have a new bean that you are struggling with, how can you use the scales and a brew ratio to help you get a balanced cup?

Here is one approach that may prove helpful.

I'm going to start with a brew ratio of 1:2 as a starting point (this is my current preference - it makes a drink with the resulting thickness, balance and mouthfeel that I predominantly enjoy).

So I'm dosing at 18.0g & aiming to get 36.0g in the cup (dose will be dependent on the basket/headspace and equipment you are using).

When dialling in, I'm going to stick to this brew ratio, the *only *variable I am going to change is the coarseness/fineness of thegrind, to effect a change in taste in the cup

Let's be clear - *I'm keeping my dose, tamp pressure, and extraction temperature all constant, in this process.*

So we are going to pull a range of shots and see which one we prefer the taste of, e.g;



18.0g into 36.0g in 20-25 seconds.


18.0g into 36.0g in 26-30 seconds, with a finer grind.


18.0g into 36.0g in 31-35 seconds, with a finer grind still.


Taste each one & note down which one you prefer.

The one you prefer is a good pint for starting to dial in a coffee .

You may prefer different coffee's at different brew ratios , this is fine , nothing is absolute , and there is no " one size fits all "

*EDIT July 2017 *

*
**lets be clear if a 1:2 ratio aint tasty dont **stick** to it , change it , it's a number / ratio that is a decent starting point and with most fair water , and **decent* *grinder** should get **you** to a ball park **extraction** , but again it will not suit all coffees and all preferences. So please **experiment** , dont **just** stick with it and hope you will get to like it . Taste **your* *espresso* *before* *you** add milk to it , try and work out some **basic** tastes - bitter , sweet, acidic , sour , strong , weak and then what it is you like , don't like ...*

Article written by Mrboots2u

Next article

Changing the brew ratio- what will it do. EDIT didn't do this , go look here , its way better than anything i can come up with

https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/the-espresso-compass

Again this is not my original own work but a summation of ideas and knowledge built up whilst enjoying coffee

Thanks to MWJB for his patience an help , ideas and corrections

Credit & thanks to Andy Schecter whose work on brew ratio based on mass makes all our coffee lives a better place and this article possible.


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## DoubleShot

Your best article yet. Very, very informative. Thank you.


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## Mrboots2u

These are just copies across from existing articles .....

Here to make it easier to direct to if people need em , read in one place , with one link ....


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## hombre_mediocre

Really helpful post, thanks! Now to research scales lol


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## DoubleShot

hombre_mediocre said:


> Really helpful post, thanks! Now to research scales lol


These ones seem to be popular amongst members here. I don't own a set of these specific ones but I might order some as I really like the look of them especially the display itself.

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=150989286512

1000g x 0.1g LCD Mini Digital Jewelry Pocket GRAM Scale UK


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## aaroncornish

DoubleShot said:


> These ones seem to be popular amongst members here. I don't own a set of these specific ones but I might order some as I really like the look of them especially the display itself.
> 
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&alt=web&id=150989286512
> 
> 1000g x 0.1g LCD Mini Digital Jewelry Pocket GRAM Scale UK


They do look good! The ones I have currently have a rubbish display. I have ordered a pair of these to try out


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## Rhys

aaroncornish said:


> They do look good! The ones I have currently have a rubbish display. I have ordered a pair of these to try out


That's the one I bought the other day, use them all the time now.


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## @[email protected]

> Really helpful post, thanks! Now to research scales lol
> 
> These ones seem to be popular amongst members here. I don't own a set of these specific ones but I might order some as I really like the look of them especially the display itself.
> 
> http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item...d=150989286512
> 
> 1000g x 0.1g LCD Mini Digital Jewelry Pocket GRAM Scale UK


How are folks finding these scales. I've Bought myself a set and find that after tare-ing them they slowly start to creep up in weight. 30 secs can add a couple of grams. Have I got myself a dud set or just a quirk from a set of scales that cost a fiver?


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## scottomus

With regards to the weighing of the output. Is that primarily due to having to stop the machine manually? When at the desired weight/volume?

Whereas, for example the sage DB, la spaz and others, shut off the extraction automatically. Obviously you can still weigh to check the output and then change the volume of water to extract?

just trying get my head round the ease of use of it being auto rarther than having switch it off yourself


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## Mrboots2u

scottomus said:


> With regards to the weighing of the output. Is that primarily due to having to stop the machine manually? When at the desired weight/volume?
> 
> Whereas, for example the sage DB, la spaz and others, shut off the extraction automatically. Obviously you can still weigh to check the output and then change the volume of water to extract?
> 
> just trying get my head round the ease of use of it being auto rarther than having switch it off yourself


I presume you are refering to the volumetrics that these machines offer.?

Ease = hitting a button when you get to a value on a scale .....not that hard ?


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## Zephyr

Great article, I measure 18g of grind coffee and time it to about 25sec, its still a little bitter to my taste. Is it too much coffee or what? and 18g is it double or single shot ? thx


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## Mrboots2u

Zephyr said:


> Great article, I measure 18g of grind coffee and time it to about 25sec, its still a little bitter to my taste. Is it too much coffee or what? and 18g is it double or single shot ? thx


How much coffee in weight are you getting out over 25 seconds and in what basket


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## Zephyr

Mrboots2u said:


> How much coffee in weight are you getting out over 25 seconds and in what basket


I dunno, I didnt weight it. I judge from flow and timing. It looks good to me with good crema, from time to time. I'm only asking because i dont know how to adjust taste, I wonder if it could be coffee itself.


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## Mrboots2u

Zephyr said:


> I dunno, I didnt weight it. I judge from flow and timing. It looks good to me with good crema, from time to time. I'm only asking because i dont know how to adjust taste, I wonder if it could be coffee itself.


If you dont know what the weight of espresso is out , then i cant help make a recommendation on how to adjust the taste.....

This isn't meant to be rude but that is point of the article - a common language to help you adjust a shot , and to help you understand the variables that are effecting the taste in your cup

to help adjust taste

WEIGHT THE OUTPUT ( read the article







)


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## hotmetal

@[email protected] said:


> How are folks finding these scales. I've Bought myself a set and find that after tare-ing them they slowly start to creep up in weight. 30 secs can add a couple of grams. Have I got myself a dud set or just a quirk from a set of scales that cost a fiver?


Creeping up a couple of grams sounds rather a lot. Hard to know the cause but bear in mind that vibration (e.g. on drip tray with pump running ) can cause inaccuracies, as can heat (e.g. putting a hot portafilter on the weighing platform to tare it before filling the basket). Also they need to be stable and level which a drip tray isn't always, so the coffee environment isn't ideal for accurate measurement. But I've only seen my scales (2kg/0.1g SmartWeigh, amazon £15) drift by about 0.3g if they do (which they don't usually).


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## jlarkin

Mrboots2u said:


> [/color]Next article
> 
> Changing the brew ratio- what will it do..[/color][/color]


Hello Mrb2u did you already have that final article written about changing the brew (you mentioned in a reply in the thread that you were moving existing articles), just wondered if this was already written but not moved here yet?


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## Xpenno

jlarkin said:


> Hello Mrb2u did you already have that final article written about changing the brew (you mentioned in a reply in the thread that you were moving existing articles), just wondered if this was already written but not moved here yet?


He probably hasn't worked out the answers required to write said article


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## Rodgers

Excellent. Something for me to work on when. Thanks!


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## jlarkin

Xpenno said:


> He probably hasn't worked out the answers required to write said article


This comment upset Mrboots2U so much, that he won't even reply to me now


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## Xpenno

jlarkin said:


> This comment upset Mrboots2U so much, that he won't even reply to me now


I doubt it, he's just too busy refracting his breakfast.


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## The Systemic Kid

Xpenno said:


> I doubt it, he's just too busy refracting his breakfast.


Getting muesli through those syringe filters is a faff though.


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## jeebsy

Xpenno said:


> I doubt it, he's just too busy refracting his breakfast.


Getting the tds on his apple juice right is a constant source of frustration. And he drinks it from a latte glass!


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## Xpenno

jeebsy said:


> Getting the tds on his apple juice right is a constant source of frustration. And he drinks it from a latte glass!


NEVER drink apple juice from a latte glass!!! It's for coffee....


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## The Systemic Kid

That was priceless.


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## smorgo

Well, that was a truly informative read. Seems so obvious on reflection. I understand that it was assembled from different sources, but thanks for pulling it together in one easy-to-understand series of posts. Now, where are those scales...


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## Mach

Thank you so much for this Guide for the Perplexed.


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## El carajillo

These articles should be made compulsory reading before members can join the Coffee Forum.

Nice job Martin:good:


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## 8800coffee

Just thought I would echo other comments - a great guide for beginners like myself. Just weighed out 14grams of Gladiator beans (roasted at The coffee House - Leighton buzzard), extracted for 27 seconds and weighed out 30 grams of espresso. Tasted great although it did take me a while to dial in the grinder.


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## 8800coffee

8800coffee said:


> Just thought I would echo other comments - a great guide for beginners like myself. Just weighed out 14grams of Gladiator beans (roasted at The coffee House - Leighton buzzard), extracted for 27 seconds and weighed out 30 grams of espresso. Tasted great although it did take me a while to dial in the grinder.


Opps - correction, "the house of Coffee" it should be and not "the coffee house".


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## Missy

Thanks @Mrboots2u I've spent a happy evening really exploring the extremes of grind size and realised what I thought was working well wasn't quite as good as it seems I actually prefer a marginally quicker extraction than I had before I played around so much! Now all I need is a big group of friends who want to drink espressos that I've taken a sip out of!

Is there an alternative to sip n sink? I realise I actually needed to pull 10 shots consecutively but there's no way I could do that with every bean every time....


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## MWJB

Don't sip & sink. Sip & spit, but always taste the last sip too. The flavour can change from top to bottom & evolve as you drink, also try transferring to an oversized cup & making sure the drink is well stirred, mixed & cooled.

Make a shot, or a few, write down what you have done, note the ones that taste good/bad & why you think that is, then walk away...think about what worked & pick up where you left off. It's very easy to get into a frenzy, waste coffee & come back none the wiser.


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## Missy

Thanks. I did make brief notes! I didn't drink the whole shot though.


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## coyote

Very good article..thanks for that.. And I have question:

If we keep the same brew temp,tamp pressure and after 25sec we get bitter espresso- what we than do? If bitter than we do coarser grind.. If the espresso is sour than the grind need to be finer?


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## Mrboots2u

coyote said:


> Very good article..thanks for that.. And I have question:
> 
> If we keep the same brew temp,tamp pressure and after 25sec we get bitter espresso- what we than do? If bitter than we do coarser grind.. If the espresso is sour than the grind need to be finer?


What would the brew recipe be > weight in > weight out ....

Don't get hung up on a time > kill the shot by weight , not by time

further reading here .....

http://www.baristahustle.com/the-espresso-compass/


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## coyote

Yes ofcourse,

I will aim 18gr - 36gr. But if I got bitter than I will try to get same 18gr - 36gr for less time,so I need to use coarser grind?

Thanks for your time


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## Missy

I'm right in thinking (re the chart) that "only change the grind if time is significantly off" suggests that time should be somewhere in the 25-35sec range? There's a fair degree of assumed knowledge I'm lacking to make sense of the chart.


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## Missy

So for example 17g to 34g in 10secs or 40secs is bad, but 25-35secs is about locating the sweet spot?


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## hotmetal

Yep. If you get 17>[email protected]" it will probably be sour. Either your grind was way too coarse or you had a fractured puck or other distribution problem leading to channeling (where water finds its way past the coffee, instead of extracting it evenly). Actually 17>[email protected] might be perfectly nice, but if it isn't, go slightly coarser. If it takes a minute or more to get 1:2 then you're probably grinding too tight, and/or tamping too hard and/or overfilling the basket. So at a basic level, 25-35" is a guide. Taste decides where you go from there.


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## Missy

hotmetal said:


> Yep. If you get 17>[email protected]" it will probably be sour. Either your grind was way too coarse or you had a fractured puck or other distribution problem leading to channeling (where water finds its way past the coffee, instead of extracting it evenly). Actually 17>[email protected] might be perfectly nice, but if it isn't, go slightly coarser. If it takes a minute or more to get 1:2 then you're probably grinding too tight, and/or tamping too hard and/or overfilling the basket. So at a basic level, 25-35" is a guide. Taste decides where you go from there.


Thanks, the fastest I went was 20secs and sour was definitely the key taste!

So does the weight in the basket matter other than will that volume of grounds fit appropriately, so long as a 1:x ratio is maintained? I know some baskets have a recommended weight (with tolerances)


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## hotmetal

You've got a bit of leeway with dose in a basket. It depends on grinder and bean to some extent too - since changing grinder I've found I get a little more headroom for a given weight (but it could be the bean rather than the grinder). VST say +/-1g from nominal (18=17-19). You need some headroom, but too much will cause issues. If you try 14g in a basket designed for 18 or 21, most likely you'll get a very fast pour as the puck turns to sludge mid shot. Your 1:2 ratio is a guide. Taste will also be affected by temperature. But if you can work out a dose that the basket is happy with, and stick to a ratio to begin with, you can then alter grind to get to your 25-30 seconds. If 18>[email protected] is sour (unlikely), you may be brewing too cool. Classic wants half hour to warm up and also a few mins between shots to get back up to temp. I presume you meant that your fastest shot at 20" was sour, but you had some better ones that you liked? At least if you have the ratio and time you can repeat it (in theory! )


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## coyote

And what is the difference in coffee beans : on some places that I bought from - outputs is like a water.. But from other microroaster leaking is like a honey.

Both of them is Light/Medium roast,and 10days after roasting,and both is (in this case) Ethiopia beans.

Thanks


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## Missy

hotmetal said:


> I presume you meant that your fastest shot at 20" was sour, but you had some better ones that you liked? At least if you have the ratio and time you can repeat it (in theory! )


Yes that's what I meant. (17>[email protected] worked well) I was experimenting using grind size to affect speed of shot, and wondered whether I would need to change either of the first two (I settled on 17 as much more and it won't lock in easily or leaves loads of marks on the puck, any less and its watery)

I'm guessing the ratio is more about personal preference in texture etc? Or if I can't make anything work in 1:2.


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## hotmetal

Yes, it's nice to try lungi and ristretti from time to time so don't be a slave to 1:2. I've had some nice 18:27 and routinely pull 18.5>[email protected] for my morning flat white. 1:2 is a guide to where 'nom' might be. Considering the 'classic' Italian recipe is double that (7>[email protected]") you can do what you like, so long as you like it. (I base that on the fact that the traditional Italian shot is 7g into one fluid ounce - but since when did the Italians use imperial?) Trying different length shots and noting how the taste changes is a great way to learn how to customise your shots.

It's always best to change only one thing at a time. If you have found a dose that works well with your basket, stick to it. Adjust the grinder to get your time about right and work to a ratio. Try slightly shorter and longer ratios at the same grind to find a taste that you like. Of course a smaller output at the same grind will take slightly less time and vice versa but the time isn't important if it tastes good and won't change that much. If it's still in the ballpark there won't be much 'wrong' and taste is king. You can always tweak grind later, but one variable at a time.


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## h1udd

sometimes I commit the cardinal sin of not even weighing the output .... just pour, watch it and cut it when I think all the nice stuff is out and its going to long.

and to be fair ... its doesn't taste any different to randomly deciding to go 1:3 or 1:2.5 .... I just dont know what the ratio is


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## UncleJake

Super useful post - thank you. Timings wise - should I be timing from when the pump is switched on, or from when the coffee hits the glass? I've seen both done - and as we're going from ratios it doesn't really matter as long as it's consistent... But our probable sweet spot between 25-35secs - which is this? Pump or pour?


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## Mrboots2u

Pump- kill the shot by weight not time . Adjust via taste ....


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## Missy

Mrboots2u said:


> Pump- kill the shot by weight not time . Adjust via taste ....


Yeah. I had such a disaster the other day it was 35 seconds before any liquid came out. There was no way even if I'd started timing when the liquid hit the cup it could ever have been remotely pleasant.


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## UncleJake

Mrboots2u said:


> Pump- kill the shot by weight not time . Adjust via taste ....


 Yes indeed - this is what I'm doing, and timing as a guide to help me find the same recipe again.

The only reason I ask is that on deeper reading - Matt Perger mentions timing from pump start (http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-time/) - and I'd been doing it from when the juice hit the cup... The difference on the Classic (as @Missy says) can be mahusive.


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## rcoltz

Mrboots2u said:


> ..... Adjust via taste ....


 @Mrboots2u - recently I saw a flavour profile guide for coffee that outlined where in the brewing process the different elements of the coffee flavours were generated i.e. fruity, bitter and sweet. It gave a guide for how the brew pressure, temperature and length can affect the flavour and how you might adjust the variables to get the most out of a bean. Cannot find it now. Have you seen anything like this?

Have included a funky coffee flavour profile wheel that I use to define the shots I brew:










https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/learn/coffee-101/articles/coffee-flavor-profiles


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## Mrboots2u




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## jlarkin

rcoltz said:


> @Mrboots2u - recently I saw a flavour profile guide for coffee that outlined where in the brewing process the different elements of the coffee flavours were generated i.e. fruity, bitter and sweet. It gave a guide for how the brew pressure, temperature and length can affect the flavour and how you might adjust the variables to get the most out of a bean. Cannot find it now. Have you seen anything like this?
> 
> Have included a funky coffee flavour profile wheel that I use to define the shots I brew:
> 
> https://www.seattlecoffeegear.com/learn/coffee-101/articles/coffee-flavor-profiles


This is the latest flavour wheel, from the Speciality Coffee Association of America, and information on the research they did to create it: http://www.scaa.org/chronicle/2016/01/19/reinventing-the-flavor-wheel-industry-collaborates-to-identify-coffee-flavor-attributes/

I haven't seen that page you mention about changing things to get different tastes but would be very interested if anybody finds it.


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## MWJB

Indeed the flavour wheel seems more a tool to describe the flavours in coffee, assuming a reasonable extraction, rather than a way to make all coffees taste like a particular thing.


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## Coffee45

I think weighing is the right way to go when you start out or move to a new machine / grinder set-up. Then, I suggest you can benefit from using your own experience, judgement and taste preferences. Sometimes the generic guides on dose need to be modified to fit your machine or indeed your taste.


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## MWJB

Coffee45 said:


> I think weighing is the right way to go when you start out or move to a new machine / grinder set-up. Then, I suggest you can benefit from using your own experience, judgement and taste preferences. Sometimes the generic guides on dose need to be modified to fit your machine or indeed your taste.


If you don't know what you have weighed in/out, how can you relate what you are tasting to the changes you are making to reinforce what your judgement & preferences are telling you?

It's pretty hard to establish how consistent you are being if you don't know what you are starting with, or ending up with. When you establish a preference, being able to consistently hit it is a good thing & that's where weighing comes in.


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## wan

coffee is like all about skill. i newer know that.


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## CoseleyKen

Great articles and very helpful Mr Boots. Now that I've had my new toys for a week or two and having spent many hours reading on the subject I wonder if someone can clarify something for me. Since buying the setup I have been sticking to BB Brazilian Vale do Sol beans and an 18g VST basket. I dialled in the grinder to get 18g/36g in 28s and I love the taste. My good lady finds the 36g too strong in a 6oz latte so I have been splitting it into her cup and a shot glass. I drink the shot and make her latte with the cup. All is happy with the world. I then make myself a 10oz latte with 36g. While it is very nice, I would like it stronger. I also have a VST 22g basket so I would like to try using that for the 10oz latte. I see in an earlier post you say don't get hung up on the time, so to maintain the flavour I am getting with the 18g basket, do I extract 44g from the 22g basket irrespective of the time it takes? Or do I need to redial the grinder to get 44g in 25-30s? I really do not want to have to dial in the grinder for each drink.

I also have a VST 7g basket for singles which I haven't tried yet. Let's say I have some friends round and one wants a single 6oz latte, one wants a double normale espresso and one wants a treble 10oz latte. How do I achieve this without changing the grinder?


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## UncleJake

CoseleyKen said:


> Great articles and very helpful Mr Boots. Now that I've had my new toys for a week or two and having spent many hours reading on the subject I wonder if someone can clarify something for me. Since buying the setup I have been sticking to BB Brazilian Vale do Sol beans and an 18g VST basket. I dialled in the grinder to get 18g/36g in 28s and I love the taste. My good lady finds the 36g too strong in a 6oz latte so I have been splitting it into her cup and a shot glass. I drink the shot and make her latte with the cup. All is happy with the world. I then make myself a 10oz latte with 36g. While it is very nice, I would like it stronger. I also have a VST 22g basket so I would like to try using that for the 10oz latte. I see in an earlier post you say don't get hung up on the time, so to maintain the flavour I am getting with the 18g basket, do I extract 44g from the 22g basket irrespective of the time it takes? Or do I need to redial the grinder to get 44g in 25-30s? I really do not want to have to dial in the grinder for each drink.
> 
> I also have a VST 7g basket for singles which I haven't tried yet. Let's say I have some friends round and one wants a single 6oz latte, one wants a double normale espresso and one wants a treble 10oz latte. How do I achieve this without changing the grinder?


Are all your friends baristas? ;~]

Mine mostly just ask for coffee!

If you want to keep it simple I'd stick to the one sized basket and control the flavour of the drinks by amount of milk/size of vessel... So if 10oz is not 'strong' enough for you (or your guests) then make 6oz. Or 8.


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## ashcroc

CoseleyKen said:


> Great articles and very helpful Mr Boots. Now that I've had my new toys for a week or two and having spent many hours reading on the subject I wonder if someone can clarify something for me. Since buying the setup I have been sticking to BB Brazilian Vale do Sol beans and an 18g VST basket. I dialled in the grinder to get 18g/36g in 28s and I love the taste. My good lady finds the 36g too strong in a 6oz latte so I have been splitting it into her cup and a shot glass. I drink the shot and make her latte with the cup. All is happy with the world. I then make myself a 10oz latte with 36g. While it is very nice, I would like it stronger. I also have a VST 22g basket so I would like to try using that for the 10oz latte. I see in an earlier post you say don't get hung up on the time, so to maintain the flavour I am getting with the 18g basket, do I extract 44g from the 22g basket irrespective of the time it takes? Or do I need to redial the grinder to get 44g in 25-30s? I really do not want to have to dial in the grinder for each drink.
> 
> I also have a VST 7g basket for singles which I haven't tried yet. Let's say I have some friends round and one wants a single 6oz latte, one wants a double normale espresso and one wants a treble 10oz latte. How do I achieve this without changing the grinder?


I'd just make 3 doubles splitting one of them between the single & 1/3 of the tripple. Surely the coffee won't degrade that much in the time it takes to brew the other 2/3rds of the coffee required.


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## traidoco

Super helpfull thanks!


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## thewelshvet

Really great post for a newbie to grasp how to get started. Thanks.


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## rgoodcoffee

Hi,

I just had a quick question about this method, I'm a bit confused about what variable affects what in the flavour profile.

Basically, say i extract a shot 18g>36g at 25s and it's a bit sour, do I then make the grind a bit finer? Then I'm guessing the time of extraction will increase, but does that matter too much, as long as it is within 20-35s?

What does the ratio determine in terms of flavour then? So using a 1:1.6 compared to a 1:2.5, what difference would I notice in the flavour?

Thanks a lot for your help

Rory


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## MWJB

rgoodcoffee said:


> Hi,
> 
> I just had a quick question about this method, I'm a bit confused about what variable affects what in the flavour profile.
> 
> Basically, say i extract a shot 18g>36g at 25s and it's a bit sour, do I then make the grind a bit finer? Then I'm guessing the time of extraction will increase, but does that matter too much, as long as it is within 20-35s?
> 
> What does the ratio determine in terms of flavour then? So using a 1:1.6 compared to a 1:2.5, what difference would I notice in the flavour?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your help
> 
> Rory


Bear time in mind but don't kill the shot by it, keep grinding finer at 18:36 until you shake the sourness...record the time, if it's bananas long, maybe coarsen up & try longer ratio, like 1:2.3 or 1:2.5. Shots at a consistent weight will be more consistent than those at a consistent time but varying weight, extraction may vary by less than half a %EY (small margin) but vary by 5 or 6 seconds (20% of shot time).

Ideally, a 1.1.6 shot and a 1:2.5 shot ideally extracted should taste similar but the 1:1.6 shot will be thicker in mouthfeel and more concentrated. In reality, short shots can be much harder to extract properly, so a lot of folk will under-extract the 1:1.6 shot. The 1:2.5 shot will be easier to hit sweetness & ripe fruit acidity, getting past sourness...but it will be less concentrated, lower in mouthfeel.

The important thing is, when you hit something you like, you know how to repeat it, by sticking to the brew ratio and using grind as the main variable.


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## rgoodcoffee

Great response! Thanks so much, that really has helped me a lot.


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## igm45

I also have a quick question if you could be so kind. For the first 5-6 seconds of my shot the pressure is building and no coffee is forthcoming. Should I time from when I pull the lever or from when the coffee starts to pour?


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## MWJB

From when you pull the lever/press the button


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## Mrboots2u

I have added a small edit at the end of this article , as people seem to get stuck on a 1:2 ratio as the gospel ( which it isn't ) .

Cheers


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## BigAndy

There is some great advice in this thread!

I've recently started weighing my dose and my shot to a ratio of 1:2. This has been getting me some good results but I have found it interesting to play around with this though and to see how much different extractions affect the drinking experience.


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## 0044

Thanks for all the useful information on this thread!

I'm very new to espresso. I hope I'm not asking some obviously stupid questions.

I'm working in a food joint in which there's an espresso machine I can use and practice. Today I made an espresso and found that it looked a bit too long. I weighed it and to my surprise it was over 50g. I asked a workmate and he said it's because the machine got hotter in the afternoon. He then adjusted the grinder to finer side and we adjusted the recipe till it yielded 36g. However the coffee still didn't taste right. Then another workmate looked at the grinder and said it's too fine (it was usually on 4.5-5 on a Mahlkonig, but the workmate had turned it to 4).

I'm confused. I hope someone would be kind enough to enlighten me in the following questions:

(1) The espresso recipe seems to go wrong EVERYDAY in the afternoon. Is it really because we made quite a lot of coffee around noon time and the espresso machine got too hot?

(2) Is it normal for baristas to check and re-check their recipes throughout the day?


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## MWJB

1. What do you mean goes wrong? Do you mean shots get faster? The recipe shouldn't change (for the same bean & day), same dose, same output, change the grind.

2 change as often as it takes to retain flavour balance.

Sounds like you are pulling the shot then weighing it. Kill the shot at the same weight, not by eye.


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## icom102

Very interesting i will try some of your advise tomorrow but the pictures you have added arnt showing up


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## Gaz|

Wow great read.. loads of information for me to look into now when getting my first setup dialed in. Thanks


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## y2_dyc

Evening,

I have a Sage DB and it has the function of double expresso (30 Seconds) and a manual start/stop function.

Would you advise using the 30 second function for consistency and adjust my grind to get the input/output ratio of 18g:36g....or use the manual function?

I've also read you begin timing from the moment you press the start button/pull the lever (when the pumps start). Is this the case? Or would i time the shot from the moment i see liquid? Thanks for clearing that up.


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## MWJB

Use the manual function & kill the output by weight. If you just use time, your weights & extractions will vary considerably.

Time from the moment you hit the button, to the time you kill the pump (maybe a little before you actually achieve final weight in the cup).


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## pev

Handy, thanks!


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## Iris

Great article, thanks for posting.


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## matttan90

Learnt alot. just wanted to say thank you.


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## 9719

Could/Should this be made a sticky in the New Members Section as I for one am continually pointing folk to this as its one of the most important/influential reads on the forum for someone just starting out on this road of trial and tribulations. Makes sense to me but then again???


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## Lilybell2

********** said:


> Could/Should this be made a sticky in the New Members Section as I for one am continually pointing folk to this as its one of the most important/influential reads on the forum for someone just starting out on this road of trial and tribulations. Makes sense to me but then again???


 I think that's an excellent idea.


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## Michael87

MWJB said:


> You won't fix the time, it will always vary a little. This doesn't really matter if we are talking about a couple of seconds longer, or shorter than the average for a given coffee, dose & output. If the grind is set for a good extraction, then that's what you will get. Some coffees at the same dose, grind & ratio, will extract similarly at fairly different times.
> 
> It's unlikely that your 18:36g will be over-extracted unless you are using abnormally soluble, or dried out old coffee. By going to 1:1.5 you are more likely to under-extract.
> 
> If your 18:36 is actually over-extracted, then, sure coarsening the grind will drop extraction. The shot time will maybe reduce, but you are after the flavour after all, not taking part in a time trial.
> 
> A good extraction at 1:1.5 will be a third more concentrated than a 1:2 shot of the same extraction (if you did somehow achieve the same extraction), so you're not really fixing your 1:2 shot, you're making a much stronger, intense shot - which you may like, but if you are regularly hitting high extractions at 1:1.5, you should probably be teaching Barista Hustle how to pull shots, rather than the other way around ?


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## Theblusteryday

What's people's top 3 weighing scales makes/models?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Obnic

Theblusteryday said:


> What's people's top 3 weighing scales makes/models?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Really only two for me:

An eBay special jewellery scale: for around £5. You just can not argue with the price. If they break, get a new one.

Acaia Lunar: scandalously expensive but it's the endgame espresso scale. Super fast, easy to calibrate, rechargeable, and fits on my machine neatly. It also has all sorts of functions via the app but I use none.


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## ashcroc

Obnic said:


> Really only two for me:
> 
> An eBay special jewellery scale: for around £5. You just can not argue with the price. If they break, get a new one.
> 
> Acaia Lunar: scandalously expensive but it's the endgame espresso scale. Super fast, easy to calibrate, rechargeable, and fits on my machine neatly. It also has all sorts of functions via the app but I use none.


That sums it up quite nicely.
Either get a cheap set you can replace easily if/when they break (been using a this set since mid 2017 & drenched them several times) or a hyper expensive set like the Luna. There's no real middle ground worth considering.


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## Theblusteryday

Obnic said:


> Really only two for me:
> 
> An eBay special jewellery scale: for around £5. You just can not argue with the price. If they break, get a new one.
> 
> Acaia Lunar: scandalously expensive but it's the endgame espresso scale. Super fast, easy to calibrate, rechargeable, and fits on my machine neatly. It also has all sorts of functions via the app but I use none.


Thanks!! I'll give the eBay one a shot 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Obnic

Theblusteryday said:


> Thanks!! I'll give the eBay one a shot


That's where we all start. Sound decision.

What you're paying for with the Luna is speed. The eBay scales will always add a gram or two after you cut the shot. The Luna reading is near instantaneous. But the price of this speed is


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## Justin Fellows

Im sure and hope youve all been there 6 weeks now I feel like giving up ?

Going to start using the method of kill the weight in the cup and go from there. Even trying the next day seems to have an affect after thinking im getting there.


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## Justin Fellows

Grind setting 3

18g of coffee

35 seconds (manual)

Stop at 36g in the cup

Was better!


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## japastie

Appreciate the time you took to compose this. Very handy for a novice like me.


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## djam

ashcroc said:


> That sums it up quite nicely.
> Either get a cheap set you can replace easily if/when they break (been using a this set since mid 2017 & drenched them several times) or a hyper expensive set like the Luna. There's no real middle ground worth considering.


 been using standard kitchen scale as a stop gap and found that it can be temperamental when the steam gets to it from the drip tray.

Presume you haven't had any issues with this one considering you've had from 2017!?


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## JA92

Very useful guide. Thank you


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## SafetyThird

This is very helpful, thank you. I'm reading all the guides I can find while waiting for m first machine to arrive


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## Pete4eyes

Excellent advice for a starting point. Thanks for taking the time to write that down for a novice. Much to learn but I'll enjoy that process.


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## ARN22340

Excellent information

Thx

ARN


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## Hal

This is a great read. Thank you


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## Bhodgson

I’ve found the cheap Ebay scales are affected by temperature change. they get more wayward as the temp climes, or descends depending on the ambient when you calibrated.


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