# What am I doing wrong



## [email protected] (Jun 25, 2013)

Okay folks. I've had it. I can't make something up to par with the local brews or even somewhere like Starbucks (which I assume you all hate).

I need advice-- I'm making lattes, and the coffee flavour is just so weak. Every time I use something it tastes the same, no bite. I've used the preground starbucks blend, some illy esspresso stuff and I've also used some other italian beans which I've grounded myself. I decided to do the latter because I was sure it was why the coffee just had no hit to it. So what bean do they usually use at these places. Is it a specific dark blend or something?

Also, I'll talk you through my procedure, because while I'm sure it's something to do with the bean, I'm sure I'm messing up elsewhere:

(Before I start, I'll say I'm using a Gaggia classic)

1. Turn the coffee machine on to heat up

2. After about 15 mins, grind the bean and then put it in.

3. Make the espresso and leave it aside for a few minutes while I

4. Froth the milk in a big steel cup, tilted to the side and turning it off whenever bubbles show

5. Pour the espresso into a heated cup, and then I pour the milk out with a spoon, making sure the milk goes in first rather than the foamy milk.

It just doesn't taste as good as it should. It's good, but I want more out of it honestly.

Thanks in advance


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

there could be millions of variables at work here.. its hard to even know where to begin.

What kit are you using? what coffee machine and which grinder. What fresh beans are you using (you need to use fresh beans and not supermarket bought).

Whats your dose in the portafilter? 15g? 18g? how long do you extract for? what does the espresso taste like by itself?

There are so many questions here.

My instinct is probably that you might be using stale shop bought beans, possibly using a grinder that is not capable of doing a proper espresso grind, and therefore probably getting very quick, watery extractions with no real flavour.

You kinda need to have proper burr grinder capable of getting the coffee grounds fine enough that you extract between 15-18g into 1-2oz of espresso in around 25-30 seconds. You wont achieve this with pre-ground, shop bought coffee, and you wont achieve it with a cheap blade grinder, or low end burr grinder.

I hope this helps get you thinking. Let us know your process and kit and we can go from there.


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## aphelion (Nov 23, 2012)

Hiya,

As above:-

1) how much ground coffee are you using?

2) how long does the espresso take to pour? (from brew switch on to switch off)

3) how much espresso do you get at the end?

For espresso, a better measurement is weight (not volume) - e.g. 18g dry grounds in, 28g liquid out etc

Regards


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

shrink said:


> there could be millions of variables at work here.. its hard to even know where to begin.
> 
> What kit are you using? what coffee machine and which grinder. What fresh beans are you using (you need to use fresh beans and not supermarket bought).
> 
> ...


There is also the rather more obvious question of how large a latte you are making i.e. the milk to coffee ratio. Also if you are letting the shot stand you should also pre-warm whatever vessel you pull the shot into


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Welcome to Coffee Forums UK

Lots of good questions already above

I'll change your username over the next day or so...

Have you considered training?


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## [email protected] (Jun 25, 2013)

shrink said:


> What kit are you using? what coffee machine and which grinder. What fresh beans are you using (you need to use fresh beans and not supermarket bought).


I'm using a Gaggia Classic RI8161. The grinder I'm using isn't, well... a grinder. I'm actually using a blender with a coffee grinder attachment. It seems to come out very finely, so I didn't think it was a problem, but I'm not sure. The beans I'm using are supermarket bought, they're Taylors Italian ungrounded beans. Does it make that big of a difference? Also-- is the italian blend weak or?



shrink said:


> Whats your dose in the portafilter? 15g? 18g? how long do you extract for? what does the espresso taste like by itself?


I'm using a double shot portafilter. I'm not sure of the exact measurements, but it's always pressed down firmly and I probably use excessive amounts rather than anything. I'm not sure about that question about extraction









The espresso tastes just like some dull run of the mill espresso. It doesn't taste wrong, just very average.



shrink said:


> My instinct is probably that you might be using stale shop bought beans, possibly using a grinder that is not capable of doing a proper espresso grind, and therefore probably getting very quick, watery extractions with no real flavour.
> 
> You kinda need to have proper burr grinder capable of getting the coffee grounds fine enough that you extract between 15-18g into 1-2oz of espresso in around 25-30 seconds. You wont achieve this with pre-ground, shop bought coffee, and you wont achieve it with a cheap blade grinder, or low end burr grinder.


lol. It looks like your instincts were correct. I'm not convinced about the grinder, as I think my blender does a fairly decent job, but perhaps you're right.

I guess what you're saying is-- buy a burr grinder and order beans fresh? Is there any particular blend of fresh beans I should go for for lattes and espressos do you think?

Thanks so much for the advice.









Edit: Whew. Thanks for the advice everyone. I guess I need to be careful with my measurements as well.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The blender with coffee attachment will not produce a consistent grind.

You are better off with pre-ground until you have a decent burr grinder - even a hand grinder for £30 is likely to be better

Do you have a metal tamper? or are you using the plastic one supplied (not fit for purpose)

Have you changed the pressurised filter baskets for standard filter baskets?


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## bignorry (Mar 19, 2013)

This is what makes this the best coffee forum ,helpful advice and gentle steering in the right direction.

norry


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Fresh beans , decent grinder, some training = improvement 1000%


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

If you don't want to cough up for a "proper grinder", get a "proper hand grinder" like a Porlex for £30 as suggested.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

yeah, proper grinders can be offputting to some... and i'd suggest that £150 is the ballpark for a grinder that will give you decent results with espresso. or you can go down the hand grinder route, but be aware that hand grinding 16g of coffee thats fine enough for espresso can take a while







(it'll be good exercise though).

The key to espresso is consistency and in the early stages, measureability.

Imagine that what you need, in an ideal world with a standard gaggia double basket is:

-16g of coffee (weighed after you've ground it)

-tamped with 30lbs of pressure

-resulting in around 24g of liquid output (or for simplicity sake, assume a volume of somewhere between 1-2oz for a double)

-this should take around 25-30 seconds.

If it takes much less time, and you definitely have 16g of coffee in the basket, then its not fine enough. if it takes much longer, and you definitely have 16g in the basket then its too fine. These are ideals though, and there are variations on all of these criteria, but if you're really starting out and feeling very lost, then the above would give you an idea of what you're trying to achieve.

Also check if you're using the pressurised basket that came with the gaggia or if you're using a standard double basket.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Totally the grinder and beans, get these right and as previously stated you will see a 1000 percent improvement.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

rodabod said:


> If you don't want to cough up for a "proper grinder", get a "proper hand grinder" like a Porlex for £30 as suggested.


I did use a porlex to begin with but found it quite tough to learn with. You can get ok espresso's with it but if your learning it can be the case that you spend 3 mins grinding by hand only to be disapointed when your shot doesn't work out.

I still use my porlex for work and think they're great but I think they can wear you down if you're new to espresso.

It might be worth buying a second hand MC2 to begin with for £85 which you can sell on for about the same price if you want to get a better one further down the line. Just my 2p's worth.


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## series530 (Jan 4, 2013)

Go back and start with some illy ground coffee (the stuff that you can purchase in a can for about £6 at Tesco). Make sure you only use fresh stuff. Coffee will go off as soon as it comes into contact with air. Once it is ground the surface area increases immeasurably compared to beans and the coffee will go off in no time.

Then practice getting the drinks right with this. You can work on your techniques of properly heating the espresso machine and the portafilter, using a non pressurised basket, getting the milk how you want it (if you want it) and cleaning techniques.

Once all of this is mastered your drinks will already have improved ten fold and you will be ready to work with coffee grinding. You may also have the budget for a decent enough grinder by that stage (possibly a used one from this forum if the budget it tight) and you can then work on the grind technique.

With fresh coffee beans, ground just before you need them, you will experience a huge jump up again in coffee taste and quality.

Best, I think, to walk first and run a little later when you have the budget and the experience. This approach reduces the variables - it may only last a few weeks but you will learn loads in that time.

When you have a grinder you could also consider investing in some tuition and getting even better.

This is the approach that we took and it has paid off.

I love the user name by the way, but appreciate that it may be offensive to some!


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Agreed.... maybe change it to "[email protected]"


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## [email protected] (Jun 25, 2013)

Whew. Thanks everyone for your advice! I really appreciate it. I've remedied my terrible ways in a number of ways:

I've bought a proper tamper, and a non-pressurised basket for the portafiller. I'm also going to start measuring the exact grams of coffee I use too. I've gotten a Porlex in the mail also.









Just a few more queries:

1. I'm not sure where the best online site to get fresh coffee beans is? Any suggestions? And how long will I have to use it before it goes from fresh to stale?

2. Is there an exact amount of clicks I need using the porlex for each different type of bean?

3. This one's a bit silly-- does the amount of milk you use in a latte need to be exact or can you get away with just a rough 1:4 esspresso:milk ratio?

4. My Gaggia Classic doesn't froth milk while it's brewing the coffee. Could this be problematic? Would it be best to brew the coffee first, then the milk, or the other way around?

Thanks a mil!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> My Gaggia Classic doesn't froth milk while it's brewing the coffee. Could this be problematic? Would it be best to brew the coffee first, then the milk, or the other way around?


That's not an issue as the Gaggia Classic was not designed to facilitate that.

The single boiler the size of a coke can (or smaller) will let you brew, then needs to be heated to produce the steam

Extract espresso then steam the milk


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Got a giggle from your username, hopefully be able to change that wen you nail your espresso.

Your classic is capable of making an espresso many times better than starbucks, so you have a lot to look forward to


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

In answer to your point

"2. Is there an exact amount of clicks I need using the porlex for each different type of bean?"

Porlex settings should approx 2-4 clicks from tightest. I'd recommend starting on 3 and seeing how it goes. If it's too slow try 4, to fast try 2.

Also I'd recomend you resting the click setting againt the next looser (coarser) setting. I.e. When you try 3 clicks from tightest, wind the nut up against the next bump which will be click setting 4. This will stop the grinder slipping and producing inconsistant grind as your grinding your beans. Hope this makes sense.

If your machine is still choking when you try a click setting 4 or 5 keep trying higher click settings and PM me if this is happening. I and a couple of other people I know of had issues with Porlexs bought from Hasbean.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Your latte strength issue is going to resolve itself once you nail everything else down. At a 1:4 ratio you should easily be able to taste your coffee, most chain coffee stores completely drown their espresso in milk, must be getting on for 10:1 ratio in places like starbucks.


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