# Darker roast: ristretto sweet but lacks complexity; 1:2 has complexity but also bitterness



## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Been experimenting with Rave Signature (roasted 11th so had a good rest). From my last run with it I learned that a lower brew ratio (1:1 to 1:1.2) gives me less bitterness -- enjoyable shots. Tried it again and indeed, no hint of bitterness but also not a lot of complexity. Tried longer brew ratios and while I get more complexity, bitterness becomes prominent the longer the ratio (1:1.2 and higher).

What options do I have to increase complexity but keep bitterness tamed (brew temp is 92 C, dose 19g in 18g VST). Do I need to grind finer (and therefore lock in a lower dose)? Brew lower temp? Pull even longer ratios?

Thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

tripleshot said:


> Been experimenting with Rave Signature (roasted 11th so had a good rest). From my last run with it I learned that a lower brew ratio (1:1 to 1:1.2) gives me less bitterness -- enjoyable shots. Tried it again and indeed, no hint of bitterness but also not a lot of complexity. Tried longer brew ratios and while I get more complexity, bitterness becomes prominent the longer the ratio (1:1.2 and higher).
> 
> What options do I have to increase complexity but keep bitterness tamed (brew temp is 92 C, dose 19g in 18g VST). Do I need to grind finer (and therefore lock in a lower dose)? Brew lower temp? Pull even longer ratios?
> 
> Thanks


 Try a longer ratio, bitterness doesn't mean you are over extracting l and it is unlikey y you are at a 1:2 ratio. 
the bitterness you are getting could just be a function of the roast of the coffee , and at 1:1 it's being masks by strength and under extraction. 
lastyl you could make a 1:1 shot and add a little water to it to see if that opens it up a little,


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Thanks, yeah I am realising that perhaps bitterness is the character of darker roasts. I'll try to pull longer. I saw a diagram on Home Barista (don't have it at hand) that suggested that sugars get extracted first followed by acids, bitters and caramels last. Is that correct? If so then that is what confuses me -- stop the shot before bitters get too much or run it longer so it extracts caramels and balances it out.

Does temp 92 C sound ok or shall I go lower still? Do you also have any thoughts on dose (as that will impact how finely I can grind)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

tripleshot said:


> Thanks, yeah I am realising that perhaps bitterness is the character of darker roasts. I'll try to pull longer. I saw a diagram on Home Barista (don't have it at hand) that suggested that sugars get extracted first followed by acids, bitters and caramels last. Is that correct? If so then that is what confuses me -- stop the shot before bitters get too much or run it longer so it extracts caramels and balances it out.
> 
> Does temp 92 C sound ok or shall I go lower still? Do you also have any thoughts on dose (as that will impact how finely I can grind)


 92 is ok, personally o don't play with temperature that much .

dose , for me is function of the size of drink I want to make and it being appropriate to the basket I want to use .

if you want complexity without bitterness perhaps this isn't the most appropriate coffee ,


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> Thanks, yeah I am realising that perhaps bitterness is the character of darker roasts. I'll try to pull longer. I saw a diagram on Home Barista (don't have it at hand) that suggested that sugars get extracted first followed by acids, bitters and caramels last. Is that correct? If so then that is what confuses me -- stop the shot before bitters get too much or run it longer so it extracts caramels and balances it out.
> 
> Does temp 92 C sound ok or shall I go lower still? Do you also have any thoughts on dose (as that will impact how finely I can grind)


 There's almost no sugar in roasted coffee, so no-one should be relying on this for sweetness. Caffeine extracts quickest, alongside acids, more acids, then even more acids, but not all the acids are acidic.

So don't give up at the first sign of bitterness, keep going longer in ratio (a little coarser in grind if necessary too) and see if you get a lull in the bitterness, before absolutely everything just tastes of smoke. Different faults cause different types of bitterness.


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## islandlad (Feb 8, 2019)

tripleshot said:


> Been experimenting with Rave Signature (roasted 11th so had a good rest). From my last run with it I learned that a lower brew ratio (1:1 to 1:1.2) gives me less bitterness -- enjoyable shots. Tried it again and indeed, no hint of bitterness but also not a lot of complexity. Tried longer brew ratios and while I get more complexity, bitterness becomes prominent the longer the ratio (1:1.2 and higher).
> 
> What options do I have to increase complexity but keep bitterness tamed (brew temp is 92 C, dose 19g in 18g VST). Do I need to grind finer (and therefore lock in a lower dose)? Brew lower temp? Pull even longer ratios?
> 
> Thanks


 As a drinker of nothing but ristrettos myself, you're not going to be getting a ton of complexity out of short ratios. Especially darker roasts. Typically intensity bombs, excellently thick mouthfeel, but pretty mono note. Maybe lighter roasts if you aren't averse to brightness?


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Apologies for the late reply. All the comments are really helpful and resonate with me. I am now on Chocolate Point from Black Cat and using a lower dose of 15g (something I've wanted to do for a while to increase number of drinks I can have in a day) and have also switched to slow feeding beans through the grinder. Not sure which of the variables made the biggest change (perhaps all 3) but really enjoying these beans.

I do struggle to decide if I prefer the ristretto 1:1.5 to the 1:2.5 though. Former has no bitterness and it's nice and smooth but the latter feels more balanced. I have tried in the middle and it's not quite right. How many of you are finding yourselves torn between preferring a shorter pull Vs longer pull for a given bean? Or is the decision quite straightforward?


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