# Choosing a machine - how do I strike off such a bewildering number of options?



## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

EDITED

I've delved through the archive of threads on here trying to get a grip on the different aspects to consider and feel as if I really need a steer now from the many experienced members on the board. Before I go into any detail on my ponderings so far, I'll go through current usage habits and some of the aspects I can decide on, if you've any thoughts on whether you think I'm heading in the right direction or not I'd be interested to hear.

*Current set up: *la marzocco OD conical grinder (mazzer kony burrs), Gaggia Classic. Grinder recently upgraded from mc2 and the impact on taste has been great, but also consistency far better than expected. Left me wondering if I really need a totally spangly machine, just something that plugs all the gaps in the Gaggia's capability.

*Usage: *three drinks every morning minimum (more weekends as per most!), comprising espresso, latte and occasional flat white or cortado. Machine comes on at 5.30 on a timer and is either off by 8 or stays on until 3pm. We both like darker roasts on the choccy/nutty side, not fans of fruity stuff,or at least not for espresso based drinks.

*Looking to improve: *main aim is for massively improved streaming performance, but then I gather that this will be the case for anything I consider over the classic. Temperature stability- don't want any faff whatsoever with temp surfing, but think I could cope with small cooling flushes, I'd like to be able to explain to my wife how to make me an espresso on occasion without her eyes glazing over . Also like to be able to produce drinks a bit quicker for when we've visitors, the classic is an anti social device if there's five milk drinks to knock up!

*
Things (I think) I want:*

*
*In rough order of importance....


Low/easy maintenance and good build quality, this includes practicality so no tiny drip trays or inaccessible components or ball aching descaling routines. I think I'd even rather avoid E61 lever operated machines if I'm honest, I am seriously lazy beyond cleaning, and could see even a quarterly disassembly/grease routine fall by the wayside.

Easy to use - not sure this is even relevant anymore, they're all pretty simple operationally!

Plumb in and tank for future proofing. Have bought a 3M filter a various bits to sort a plumb in supply from washing machine outlet, so quite happy foregoing the tank option now in spite of the constant moving house we've become accustomed to. Must have manual empty drip tray though or easily fudged version thereof as plumb out will likely be impossible until that mythical affordable housing appears (or my folks die).

Reasonably quick (20 mins max) warm up for when I forget to get it ready the night before. I use a timer, this isn't necessary, but it does rule out the odd one group commercial automatic that don't appear to have proper (manually operated) power switches.


*I don't think I want:*


Infinite adjustability, be it temperature or pressure, I'm not averse to having the option but it's just not something I want to get into I don't think. Still don't think I want/need this, dialing in beans and cleaning to ensure a damn good cup is about as much coffee faff as I can handle, I don't see that changing and I certainly don't anticipate my taste buds improving to the extent that the desire will hit me. If it does, I can live with selling and buying a new machine. You never know, by that point I may have the little one sweeping chimneys to pay for it.

A very compact machine, they look cluttered and have too many compromises as far as I can see, but definitely not commercial at the same time! Changed my mind about commercial one groups, some of them aren't much more than 10cm larger each way than most prosumer things so happy to entertain that.

Sexy, not madly concerned about looks. OK, I am, but I also don't share the aesthetic tastes of many on this forum for the gauges, knobs etc on a gleaming stainless/chrome box. I do like very simple looking machines like the L1 and Vesuvius, but I'd probably just take inspiration from powder coating thread and get creative with anything a bit bog standard/commercial looking.


Now, I've time to save, but the absolute max I'd be prepared to pay is £2k (I'm going to find it very hard to justify anything more than a grand or so depending on the machine), but that's the 'machine for life' option and I'd rather buy used and closer to half that really (yes, totally, forum used preferably and I'm prepared to be patient!). I'm considering getting a low-mid range type thing as a stepping stone in the meantime before Gaggia drives me around the bend.

God only knows re. DB/HX etc as when you look into makes and models in more detail it appears there are too many nuances which can muddy arguments for/against. Had initially thought of a londinium, but just as easy to be swayed by something simple like a fracino cherub or similarly simple/less highly regarded machines if it meets most points. Thinking now I'd be happy with HX type as long as it's a bomb proof one, preferably commercial quality parts and decent temp stability (minimal flushing).

Cheers,

Graham


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

*Looking to improve: main aim is for massively improved streaming performance, but then I gather that this will be the case for anything I consider over the classic. Temperature stability- don't want any faff whatsoever with temp surfing, and I think I'd like to avoid cooling flushes, I'd like to be able to explain to my wife how to make me an espresso on occasion without her eyes glazing over . Also like to be able to produce drinks a bit quicker for when we've visitors, the classic is an anti social device if there's five milk drinks to knock up!*





*
*Dual boiler.

£2k will get you a decent machine, i would suggest a trip to Bella barista to play, get hands on, look at!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Brewtus db -sage db- closer to £1k


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

yep - go and try a few at BB. If there are members local to you that have machines on your wish list, see if you can pop over and try their machine

2K will buy a lot of machine - make sure that its the machine for you and something that you'll not be thinking about replacing due to a hurried decision


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

*Looking to improve: *Anything prosumer is going to steam massively better than a classic. in fact a classic cannot even be remotely compared in any way to a proper prosumer class machine. Your other requirements indicate a Dual boiler machine...wife will probably glaze over though.

*
Things (I think) I want:*


Nothings maintenance free, build quality usually varies (not always) with cost. Be prepared to maintain your machine, use decent water, otherwise expect faults.

most are easy to use, ergonomics is pretty standard, theres pros and cons for knobs and taps, don't let that affect your decision

Plumb in and tank for future proofing. good idea, so scratch the basic Brewtus from your list

Reasonably quick (20 mins max) warm up for when I forget to get it ready the night before. Get a timer, this is a silly issue to have as a sticking point. most machines take longer and all can warm up quicker e.g. 20m with the turban E61 technique. If theyre not E61 and don't have a group heater, then they're gonna take longer.


*
**I don't think I want:*

*
*


Infinite adjustability....Not now, but perhaps later, remember your experience will grow and what you want will change

A very compact machine, You are wise not to want this, space means cooling, easier maintenance and longer component life

sexy, not madly concerned about looks. *Yes, yes you are, you don't realise it yet, but you will be...it's a machine you will look at for the next 10-20 years, make sure you like how it looks*


Now I know your max is 2K, but you'd like to pay half that, well if you pay almost half that new you're going to get a machine I don't think you will be hugely happy with. Upgrading and then upgrading again is just madness*. *Know what you really want and get it. If you want a used machine, then make sure you check it over carefully...but i suspect you don't "want" a used machine. .


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Machine for life... Londinium L1?


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Machine for life... Londinium L1?


Now youve opened the lever / pump can of worms


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

If I had 2k, the Londinium would be very, very high on my short list. It's beautiful, easy to use, has the advantages of a lever and can steam all day long.

If I had 8k I would get a Speedster, just because of how it looks, I barely know anything about it.

I have neither 2 or 8k to spend on a coffee machine


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

A Londinium could last you for life, but only if you want a lever in the first place. Perhaps you could include/exclude these by visiting someone and having a play.

I should caveat that by saying I have both levers and a decent pump machine to play on and enjoy both


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

My advice would be to buy something used but very well looked after such as the R58 which recently sold on here for a grand. Once someone's suffered the initial depreciation in my experience well looked after machines hold their value very well indeed. I think all of the popular dual boiler machines released in the last few years are very good. The key is condition and perhaps (especially in the case of the Rocket) looks. I'm really enjoying mine, especially the rotary pump with the only gripe being the small drip tray. I told myself the looks weren't important but have to admit now that I have it I do really appreciate them.


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

Thanks all for the input, I definitely need to get hands on. L1 owner has invited me for a try out, so will have to take that offer up sometime.


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

Oh, and on the totally irrational side, I'd love one made brum.

Looks I think probably is more important than I'm letting on but my wife is the aesthetic critic so will defer to her learned opinion... helps with spend approval too if she has some input.


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## Nimble Motionists (Oct 22, 2012)

I'm pretty happy with my Expobar Dual Boiler - the only two machines that ever get me thinking are an L1 and a Vesuvius but at £2k and £3k respectively I certainly won't be buying a new one of either anytime soon and the secondhand market for both is sparse. Don't ever wish I'd bought a Rocket, Alex Duetto etc. as they don't seem to offer a whole lot more (apart from aesthetics and a lighter wallet).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Grahamg said:


> Oh, and on the totally irrational side, I'd love one made brum.
> 
> Looks I think probably is more important than I'm letting on but my wife is the aesthetic critic so will defer to her learned opinion... helps with spend approval too if she has some input.


the only made in brum machines are fracino


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

With regards to the original post ,

dont mess about go straight for the L1 ticks all your boxes from what you have asked and it's a machine for life , if I had of known how good these are I would have got it on day one .

get the right machine , no faffing about and then all you will have to concentrate on is the important things like sourcing and discovering great beans .


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I agree. For your budget, the L1 is hard to beat. You'll love it.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> the only made in brum machines are fracino


Do Fracino not make Londinium any more?


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

I know it's well regarded and to some degree 'flavour of the moment', I think I even have that in my head as the dream type machine, but until I've had some hands on I think it's necessary to consider the machines with ability to control temperature as Dave's point is a very strong one with regard to options to pursue this in future if the desire comes.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Well there will be the new Vostock dual boiler lever, but you will have to wait a while perhaps 5-6 months....price will probably be similar to L1. Has the potential to also be a very interesting machine. ticks many boxes with 10-15 minute warm up heated group head, PID brew water temperature control and PID Brewhead heater control, internal tank or mains plumbed and quite a few more features besides. So if you decide the Lever route, then a patient wait might be something to consider. then you can see which you like better Vostok or L1.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Grahamg said:


> I know it's well regarded and to some degree 'flavour of the moment', I think I even have that in my head as the dream type machine, but until I've had some hands on I think it's necessary to consider the machines with ability to control temperature as Dave's point is a very strong one with regard to options to pursue this in future if the desire comes.


Without question, you should grab some hands on time before spending £1600, regardless of machine!


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## Roberts (Jun 30, 2015)

If you will buy a dual boiler after 6 mouths you will dream at londinium. Your decision but is good to tray a db and a lever bosco group


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Totally agree with others sentiments about getting some hands on with your choices , I like many others on the forum are quite willing to show the virtues of their particular machines , I was fortunate enough to a get a grand tour of the L1 by Coffeechap and from that day forth I never waived from my determination to process one it ticked all of what I wanted from a home machine .

if you can get hands on / demonstration before taking the plunge Perfect !

P.S. There's good reason why everything is compared to an L1


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

I had the pleasure of coffee from the L1 from Callum (HB yirg) and then tsk and Coffeechap at the BB forum day - after that I had my mind made up


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

Will definitely be 6 or 12 months time before I've got anywhere near the full budget so should be able to entertain any new market entrants that come along.


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## Nod (Sep 7, 2013)

My uncle in law got a mint la spaziale Vivaldi 2 on eBay for £660. Super machine awesome steam. That leaves you £1300 to put towards an EG-1.


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

After a bit more searching, another thing to consider is the ability to kill the steam boiler 'economy' style. Are there any benefits to this feature in addition to leccy costs?

The two that I want to try of the usual suspects are the Izzo Alex duetto and QM Verona, via features or looks I've ruled out rocket and profitec.

They all seem to have c. 3l tanks, does this tend to last a good time versus the constant refilling of a classic?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Once you step up into this class of machine refilling and steam production are virtual non issues. You can pull back to back shots to your hearts content. If you are plumber in you will never need to refill the tank, and if your not a lot of machines tell you before the tank is empty. (not all tho)


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> the only made in brum machines are fracino


Don't fracino make the Londinium anymore? I can almost hear some Londinium owners cringe when they hear that but I can't think why. In my very limited experience with Fracino I can think of several thing's that's not great about how their company operates but the actual quality of their machines is definitely not one of them


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

In fact, something like the Ariete, now called the classico, would fit the OP's requirements really well, except for the drip tray. Whoever thought bunging a heavenly drip tray on there was a good idea was wrong. So, so wrong.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

cold war kid said:


> Don't fracino make the Londinium anymore? I can almost hear some Londinium owners cringe when they hear that but I can't think why. In my very limited experience with Fracino I can think of several thing's that's not great about how their company operates but the actual quality of their machines is definitely not one of them


They do indeed

And having owned a Cherub previously, I can live with this


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Might want to keep an eye out for the next forum day which will look at levers so plenty there and as potentially Rave in March not a million miles from you.

Combined with a trip to Bella or similar you will have covered off pretty much most of hte pump / lever offerings in your price range.

Concur with advice above though, keep saving for what you want and time frame may well mean lots of other options by the time you there.

Pretty much like yourself once i stepped up on the grinder front from a rancilio rocky to 65e (and latterly a Mythos as well) the time taken to produce multiple shots started to wear a little thin.

The move from the Silvia to Conti CC-100 Lever has been nothing short of a revelation, combined with the mythos, super consistent flavoursome shots backed up by steam power of a bigger boiler.

Hope of help

John


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## Grahamg (Oct 24, 2013)

Well, it's been a few months after posting this and I reckon I've just about exhausted the sifting through of old threads via the search facility - I've edited the opening post accordingly - and a couple of thoughts/queries are niggling at me enough to start asking stupid questions again...

I'm hoping for an L1 test-ride over the next month at owner's convenience, but this is in the lead purely 'on paper' without any proper hands on. It's the low maintenance and simplicity thing for me, it truly seems to be the lazy espresso lovers machine. Wife loves the looks too which helps. BUT, I can't imagine I'll be able to personally justify the outlay of a new machine although the fund currently stands at just short of £600, on target to hit four figures by probably late summer (with proper non-coffee related savings to call upon if a bargain comes up in the meantime!).

Anyway, with a little budget re-consideration, I've been mooching around the little-loved category of single group commercial (or 'semi-commercial') machines. I can't look past any other 'budget' alternative, you just seem to get so much more for your money, but it looks like the actual spec or choice of machine is far more critical from what I can gather, so are there any hidden gems in that area that I need to be aware of?

Crucial requirements are for a manual drip tray emptying as I'll definitely not be able to plumb out (plumbing in is now sorted thanks to emulating Mr Simba's, RIP, filtration setup), and also a manual on-switch for timer usage. I know the Cimbali junior is one that might fit the bill, Gaggia TS, moving towards semi-commercial I really like the look of the La Spaz S2's too but are there any other specific models that I ought to be keeping an eye out for as a potential budget 'pimp my machine' candidate?


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## coffeebean (Jan 26, 2010)

Can do you a brand new, straight from the factory Cherub for £750 delivered......?


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