# Always bad flavourless coffee from Gigia Classic



## crlbt

I give up.

My coffee is always shit, whatever I do.

I buy beans from CC&T in Glasgow - their house blend. When I come to the shop I always have a flat white and it tastes unbelievable! It's full of flavour, after each sip the flavour stays in the mouth for ages, it's so concentrated that it seems like you just got a shot of strong alcohol. And NO bitterness at all!!!

When I'm making a flat white out of these beans, it doesn't taste like that a all. Not even close, like absolutely different drink. It whether tastes burnt or almost like water. It has just generic bad coffee flavour. If I use any other beans, they all just taste almost the same.

In the shop they use Faema E61 and Mazzer Mini or SJ. I use Gaggia Classic with OPV set to 9 bar (10 bar static pressure), lMS 17 g basket and Eureka Mignon. I tried all possible doses starting from 15 to 19 or 20 g, grinding from very corse -14 seconds for 30 ml, to very fine - 40 seconds for 30 ml, tamping from very light like almost a touch to very strong . Tried all possible and impossible temperature surfing, for the last 10 months I would definitely guess the proper temperature at least once. It's all the same, just a little bit less or more bitter, less watery - more watery. No flavour! I would be happy to have 10% of flavour intensity from the shop, but it just doesn't exist.

In the shop they don't weight the dose, just grind till the basket is full and then tamp. What I've noticed their tamping pressure varies depending on barista. Their extracting time is different either. Sometimes it's 20 seconds, sometimes it's 25 or 28, but the flavour profile is always the same! Sometimes it's not extremely intense, sometimes it's stronger, but it's always the same flavour.

So I'm very confused. Is Gaggia really that bad? Or is it my grinder? Or anything else?

Thanks.


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## yardbent

********WELCOME*******

from SW Scotland

2;30 off to bed

but a quick read of your post - one thing strikes me

a variable which may be wrong is the beans themselves

''I buy beans from CC&T in Glasgow - their house blend''

not knocking CC&T (who I dont know at all) - but could their 'beans for sale' be bagged up (1kg) then stored

whereas the beans in the shop are subject to constant renewal/turnover

perhaps try a new bean from one of the roasterS which get used on the forum..?

try an espresso blend from Coffee Compass - their Hill and Valley is reputed to be 'very forgiving' of technique

i have a Gaggia Classic 9BAR, VST basket with a Graef CM800 - just opened the CC Brighton Lanes

18g in = 40g out in 25 secs - excellent - AND i'M A BEGINEER

I dont see its your kit - try some better beans..?............................GOOD LUCK..


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## Jon

I think you need to rule out various things:

1. What's your temperature surfing approach - does it ensure consistency?

2. Try grinding a specific weight and stick with it for now (say 17g)

3. Weigh out your shot. Aim for 34g as a starting point. Using ml is fine in theory but in practice can lead to wildly different weights of liquid coffee due to crema

4. What's your distribution and tamping technique?


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## Mrboots2u

The shop may my not " need to weigh " they have more forgiving equipment and experience than you do at home . Weigh in - weigh out - taste adjust . Check the stickies in the barista skills for the home enthusiast to explain how .

Weighing in and out allows you to tod some variables and understand the effect others have - and when tasty gives you some control over replicating it again .


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## GCGlasgow

^ What yardbent and jonc said above....try different beans and weigh out in grams not amount in ml. If you look through the forum you'll find lots of people have been in similar positions, ready to give up but once you find a good routine it can become more consistent and nicer coffee.

I leave the classic to heat up for 15 mins, flush some water through, grind the beans then when light goes out again, wait till it comes back on for about 5 secs then start the shot. Good luck.


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## PPapa

Why don't you talk to cc&t staff? They are brilliant and seemed to be fairly well educated coffee wise. I had espresso at cc&t only once and I quite liked it. They have both 250g and 1kg bags for their house blend.

I found the roaster (slim and fairly short guy with roundish glasses) is easy to approach and he's quite keen for a chat. Look for afternoons when it's less busy.


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## GrahamS

if you are a regular, why not be cheeky and ask for a handful of beans from the bag they just made your coffee from?


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## crlbt

Hi guys, thanks for your advices.

yard bent - thank you.

These are the beans they use and sell, they are from the same batches. They roast every Monday, it's really hard to find fresher beans.

I think if they can make amazing flat whites from their blend, I should be able to replicate at least something similar.

jonc - thanks

1. I tried quite a few different approaches. For a long time I was flushing the water till the the light goes off and then start brewing immediately after the light comes back. Another one - waiting to he light to come back then hit the steam switch for 3 - 5 seconds, switch it off and start brewing. Another one (found on this forum) - to keep the steam switch for 15 seconds instead of just 3 - 5, I think I prefer this method. I wait for 15 - 20 minutes warm up the machine.

2. I'll try playing around 17 g again, but I tried all this in the past.

3. Sorry for confusion, I'm not using ml, I use the scales and weight the dose in grams, I just wrote ml cos 1ml = 1g AFAIK

4. At the moment I'm grinding then steering with tooth pick and then tamp. I don't know tamping pressure and I don't think it's very important. I just press until the grinds stop moving. But I tried all kinds of tamping techniques.

Mrboots2u - thanks

I do weight everything I can weight









GCGlasgow - thanks

As I said I weight everything on scales.

PPapa - I did talk to one of them and he didn't know much about what he was doing, he said they make 30 ml for milk based drinks from double dose and 60 ml for double espresso.

GrahamS - because it's the same beans and they use them one week or so after roasting I think. They usually have to batches for sale - current week roast and previous.


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## johnealey

Realise this may sound daft and apologies if you do this, but, how often do you backflush and or remove the shower screen for a good clean as a buildup of coffee oils behind the screen will give you a very bitter cup almost every time?

John


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## crlbt

Hi John, last time I backlashed it with cafiza a months or so ago. I've never removed the shower screen.


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## crlbt

It's always bitter when I'm trying to hit those 25 - 30 seconds. The only way when the bitterness is gone is when the extraction time is something about 14 - 16 seconds, but that's way too fast and tastes very watery. Also their blend is a dark roast.


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## johnealey

Might want to take the shower screen off and suspect you will have a black sludge buildup.

Bought a second hand classic for my wife to use at work and the first shot out was rank (it was from Flea bay not here), quick clean up and completely different.

Worth a try and costs just your time.

I follow a routine posted by @DavecUK of taking the shower screen off my silvia every other day giving it a clean with washing up detergent ( I do the dispersion block as well but thats just me) and back flush with water every day and cafiza once a week.

Hope of help

John


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## MWJB

crlbt said:


> It's always bitter when I'm trying to hit those 25 - 30 seconds. The only way when the bitterness is gone is when the extraction time is something about 14 - 16 seconds, but that's way too fast and tastes very watery. Also their blend is a dark roast.


14-16 seconds will usually mean an under-extracted shot, which will be weak & underdeveloped flavour-wise. Don't aim so much for 25-30 seconds, this time alone doesn't mean much until you tie it in with the brew ratio (determined by dose:shot weight),even then, the time may vary by more than the ratio for a good shot.


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## yardbent

crlbt said:


> Hi John, last time I backlashed it with cafiza a months or so ago. I've never removed the shower screen.


hmmmm

I agree with @johnearley

I follow a routine posted by @DavecUK of taking the shower screen off my silvia every other day giving it a clean with washing up detergent ( I do the dispersion block as well but thats just me) and back flush with water every day and cafiza once a week.

me too, screen and block - but i only use clean tap water, and flush with Cafiza weekly

do you have an IMS shower screen - so much better - the standard Gaggia screen clogs quickly IMO


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## Tewdric

Bitter may mean water too hot, so maybe try waiting for the boiler heat cycle to complete, I.e. Light on until light off, then run water through the group for two seconds before loading the portfilter and pulling the shot. If it's still bitter do the same but run water through for four seconds. Once you've got your optimum flavour repeat that every time.

Or or buy an L1!


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## GrahamS

yardbent said:


> hmmmm
> 
> do you have an IMS shower screen - so much better - the standard Gaggia screen clogs quickly IMO


is there an IMS shower screen for the classic?


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## urbanbumpkin

MWJB said:


> 14-16 seconds will usually mean an under-extracted shot, which will be weak & underdeveloped flavour-wise. Don't aim so much for 25-30 seconds, this time alone doesn't mean much until you tie it in with the brew ratio (determined by dose:shot weight),even then, the time may vary by more than the ratio for a good shot.


Completely agree with this.

It might be worth posting a clip of your shot prep and pulling a shot to see if there's anything else that could be causing this.


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## yardbent

GrahamS said:


> is there an IMS shower screen for the classic?


top picture

http://www.espressoservices.co.uk/ims_gaggia_shower_screen.html


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## Jon

Where are you based? Maybe one of us could pop round and see if we can help?


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## crlbt

jonc - I'm in Glasgow.

Just bought a bag of beans from Laboratorio Espresso (it's a HAS BEAN blend - 50% Costa Rica Vista and 50% Guatemala El Libano) and had a flat white there. Then just made a flat white at home using the same grinding settings as for the beans from CC&T and it turned out that my flat white was almost identical to the one I had in the shop (and they use La Marzocco) even though extraction time was too small, about 16 seconds and I got a big channel in the puck. Very strange. But the thing is that I don't like this blend, it's not bad at all, but I much more prefer CC&T's. I only went to Lab Espresso because CC&T was closed today and I ran out of beans.


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## GCGlasgow

@crlbt where in Glasgow are you? By no means am I any kind of expert but have had a classic for a few years now. I could grind some beans at same setting for my classic and try them on yours, see if there's similar results. Can't remember but have you done the opv mod? (just saw you have done the opv mod...so should get similar results)


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## Mrboots2u

crlbt said:


> jonc - I'm in Glasgow.
> 
> Just bought a bag of beans from Laboratorio Espresso (it's a HAS BEAN blend - 50% Costa Rica Vista and 50% Guatemala El Libano) and had a flat white there. Then just made a flat white at home using the same grinding settings as for the beans from CC&T and it turned out that my flat white was almost identical to the one I had in the shop (and they use La Marzocco) even though extraction time was too small, about 16 seconds and I got a big channel in the puck. Very strange. But the thing is that I don't like this blend, it's not bad at all, but I much more prefer CC&T's. I only went to Lab Espresso because CC&T was closed today and I ran out of beans.


At 16 seconds you are almost certainly under extracting the shot= making it sour and acidic


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## crlbt

That's why I wrote that extraction time was too small?


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## risky

Lab use a light house blend that probably won't punch through milk anything like a dark roast from Cc&t.

That said, I'd be amazed if a 16s gusher tasted like a dialled in shot from Lab. As you've admitted, your tastes are maybe more towards the darker end of the scale.

So what kind of recipes have you tried?

We usually list them in the form:

18>36>30

Where that means 18g ground coffee, 36g output and 30s time.

Also when you say flat white, how much milk are you adding?

Also to comment on your previous post, 1ml=1g is true for water, but not coffee.


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## crlbt

Hi risky,

It wasn't as good as it was in the Lab, but it was more than drinkable. If their blend was my favourite, would I be satisfied drinking something like I just made? Yeah pretty much, it definitely needs more work, but the flavour profile was the same, sourness was almost the same, flavour strength was weaker, but not that much. When I make flat white from CC&T blend and compare it to what they make in the shop - it's like 2 completely different blends, most of the time mine is just undrinkable and doesn't have any flavour notes of the shop's one.

Usually it's 17g, sometimes i'm trying different weight, but I've noticed that 16 - 17g works the best. I usually aim for about 27 - 32 grams of drink and 26 - 30 seconds

I add full 160ml cup of milk on top of espresso, like anyone else.


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## seeq

Try not to keep adjusting too much. I wouldn't worry too much about temp surfing, it's not too important and only really useful for fine tuning. I used to find the faff of temp surfing didn't really give me enough improvement to bother. The machine being warmed up (at least 15-20 minutes with PF in) is very important.

Stick with 17g which is what your basket is designed for. It can go 1g either way, but again this is a pretty minor adjustment, once you've got a half decent shot.

The two other variables are shot time and output weight. With a dark roast I personally find a longer shot and bigger ratio better. Maybe around 30-35 seconds to pour about 35g. Adjust one at a time, once you can't get it any better at a set ratio, then adjust the time (and thus grind to maintain the same ratio).

The other thing mentioned, which I shall mention again as its vital, is cleaning the machine. Descale, backflush, take the shower screen and plate off and scrub the thing. I guarantee that it will improve flavour. The biggest cause of bitterness is a dirty machine.


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## crlbt

Hi seeq, thanks for your advices, I'll stick to 17g to exclude at least one variable. I'll buy those beans tomorrow and will try to do bigger ratio, I don't know how many grams exactly they use in the shop, so could easily be more than 30g, but their extracting time is about 20 - 25 seconds.

I descaled my machine yesterday, then tried to unscrew the shower screen and striped the screw, no more shower cleaning for me.


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## timmyjj21

Stripped the shower screen screw? I would say it definitely needs to come off then! If there is that much filth underneath that the screw has become glued it's going to need a clean! Sacrifice the shower screen to get it off and buy a new screw and screen.


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## yardbent

crlbt said:


> ..............., then tried to unscrew the shower screen and striped the screw, no more shower cleaning for me.


do you mean you damaged the screw head so it wont unscrew..?...[which suggests its NEVER been off before and is prob filthy]

i suggest you order an IMS screen plus a new screw

then bend/destroy the existing screen to gain access to the 2 allen keys holding the shower plate

a small small squirt of WD40 may help

use a thin drill to remove old screw

if you totally screw-up, its a good reason to buy a new brass shower plate

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## Glenn

crlbt said:


> I don't know how many grams exactly they use in the shop, so could easily be more than 30g


It's not likely to be more than 23g (a 22g basket with tolerance of +/- 1g)


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## crlbt

Glenn said:


> It's not likely to be more than 23g (a 22g basket with tolerance of +/- 1g)


I meant 30g of liquid. That's why I wrote ml in my first post to avoid confusion, but some people started saying that ml is incorrect (which is true, but makes communication easier). They use standard double basket and grind till it's full, so I have no idea how many grams it is.

What I also noticed is that in all coffee shops consistency of milk based drinks is very watery, not heavy, when mine feels like it has loads of micro particles in it, not sure how to describe it correctly. This is probably due to grinding too fine, but when I start grinding corser the extraction times goes lower than 20 seconds for 30g of liquid.


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## risky

crlbt said:


> Usually it's 17g, sometimes i'm trying different weight, but I've noticed that 16 - 17g works the best. I usually aim for about 27 - 32 grams of drink and 26 - 30 seconds


17-27/32 is possibly on the shorter side. Pull a 36g shot and see how it tastes. What about 40g?



> I add full 160ml cup of milk on top of espresso, like anyone else.


Reason I asked is because there are no rules and virtually no consistency on milk based drinks and pretty much everywhere does it differently.


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## crlbt

Even now, when I set up my grinder finer to hit those 20 - 30 seconds on the beans I bought today, the flavour went down. That 16 seconds shot was so much better. But this also could be because of too high temperature, I hold the steam switch for 10 seconds before brewing. Maybe when the grind is corse, high temperature doesn't affect the flavour that much.


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## jeebsy

crlbt said:


> I hold the steam switch for 10 seconds before brewing


I'm not sure this is good practice


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## MWJB

crlbt said:


> Even now, when I set up my grinder finer to hit those 20 - 30 seconds on the beans I bought today, the flavour went down. That 16 seconds shot was so much better. But this also could be because of too high temperature, I hold the steam switch for 10 seconds before brewing. Maybe when the grind is corse, high temperature doesn't affect the flavour that much.


Can you give us an idea of what "down" means in regard to flavour (sweet, sour, etc.)?

Please stop describing the shots in terms of time alone, it's pretty much meaningless.


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## crlbt

jeebsy said:


> I'm not sure this is good practice


Me neither







There are so many variables that affect the taste, that sometimes I think you just can't win.


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## crlbt

MWJB said:


> Can you give us an idea of what "down" means in regard to flavour (sweet, sour, etc.)?


It became bitter, sourness disappeared at all (which in this blend should be present in my opinion), became 'heavy', aftertaste disappered. In general tastes like nescafe classic







These are the signs of over extraction.


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## MWJB

crlbt said:


> It became bitter, sourness disappeared at all (which in this blend should be present in my opinion), became 'heavy', aftertaste disappered. In general tastes like nescafe classic
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> These are the signs of over extraction.


Over-extraction is the best indicator of over-extraction ;-)

It's very unlikely you are over-extracting, unless you are pulling massive shots...even then, I'd have my doubts.


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## seeq

I'm sticking by the fact your main cause, and almost definitely what's causing the bitterness when you're not over extracting is the fact the machine needs cleaning. I agree with others, if the screw is stuck then it's probably never been done. It's not even worth trying the variables until that machine is cleaned.


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## crlbt

lMS shower screen costs £15 including delivery, is it really better than the standard one?


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## seeq

Some will disagree, but I don't find a massive difference, depends on the cost of the standard to whether it's worth it.


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## El carajillo

As seeq and other members have pointed out , as I did in the PM I sent you with your first post, until you remove the shower screen and the dispersion block and thoroughly clean / renew them you will continue to have bitter unpleasant coffee.If as you said the crew was locked solid it is unlikely the screen and block have ever been cleaned (back flushing will not remove all the "crap". If you have damaged the screw head too badly you will need to "bodge" a screwdriver through the screen, fold it in half and use pliers to grip and remove the screen and screw.

(Unless you have screw extractors). Then undo the two alan screws and remove the dispersion block clean or preferably replace with a brass one.


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## stuey

Surely switching the machine to steam mode (for however long) before pulling the shot isn't helping?

You will be extracting with water that is too hot and thus be stripping bitterness from the puck?

I have used the same classic for around 12 years. Regular cleaning, perfecting the grind and the tamp have all led to a great tasting shot.

Temp surfing made little or no difference.

I would clean the machine.

Standardise your routine with weights, times and measures.

Spend a bit of cash and few hours if it needs it dialling your grinder in to get 18-36-30.

Leave that steam button well alone unless you need to steam milk.

Good luck!


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## yardbent

El carajillo said:


> As seeq and other members have pointed out , as I did in the PM I sent you with your first post, until you remove the shower screen and the dispersion block and thoroughly clean / renew them you will continue to have bitter unpleasant coffee.If as you said the crew was locked solid it is unlikely the screen and block have ever been cleaned (back flushing will not remove all the "crap". If you have damaged the screw head too badly you will need to "bodge" a screwdriver through the screen, fold it in half and use pliers to grip and remove the screen and screw.
> 
> (Unless you have screw extractors). Then undo the two alan screws and remove the dispersion block clean or preferably replace with a brass one.


*please clean the machine ...*









yes i find my new IMS creen far easier to wipe clean

as you will prob destroy your shower screen - I still have the original standard Gaggia screen which you can have FOC

PM me your address - asap cos i goto the Post Office on Thursday


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## crlbt

Thanks guys for your help, I already ordered IMS screen yesterday, hopefully will be delivered this week. I'll report back after changing it.


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## urbanbumpkin

Have you managed to remove the old one / screw. Just a thought, are you turning the screw the right way? Not meant to be patronising, but for me undoing a screw upside down used to wreck with my head and more often than not I'd end up starting to tighten it.


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## crlbt

Anticlockwise

Haven't managed. Will try to bend the shower screen and unscrew it once I get my replacement.


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## seeq

urbanbumpkin said:


> Have you managed to remove the old one / screw. Just a thought, are you turning the screw the right way? Not meant to be patronising, but for me undoing a screw upside down used to wreck with my head and more often than not I'd end up starting to tighten it.


That did make me chuckle. Mainly because I suddenly pictured myself trying to turn my head upside down for exactly the same reason!


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## El carajillo

If the head is not too damaged, you may be able to undo by using a long screwdriver or a socket extension with a screwdriver tip (philip's No 2)

Remove lid and water tank, drip tray and lie the machine on its back on a towel . This gives you access through the base and allow's more pressure to be applied and allows you to see that you are in line with the screw.









When you remove the two allen screws holding the dispersion disc you may need to insert a screwdriver through one of the holes to lever it free OR if you have a long screw or bolt with the same thread as the screen screw, this can be screwed into the screen screw hole to "jack" the block off.


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## yardbent

crlbt said:


> Anticlockwise
> 
> Haven't managed. Will try to bend the shower screen and unscrew it once I get my replacement.


remove drain pipe then tank and - carefully - the 2 silicon pipes

turn upside down

i suggest this cos i can always get far greater pressure/torque on the screw whilst pressing 'downwards'

bujjer - must type faster - still, great minds think alike..


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## El carajillo

seeq said:


> That did make me chuckle. Mainly because I suddenly pictured myself trying to turn my head upside down for exactly the same reason!


It's the way he tells them


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## crlbt




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## yardbent

upside down and a drill with screw extractor

if really stuck - destroy screen - remove allen bolts - and treat yourself to a brass head for your new IMS screen

or beg under 'Wanted' for an old shower head...


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## El carajillo

You still stand a chance of unscrewing it, try slightly tightening it first , this will sometimes break the seal. If you turn it upside down you could dribble a few spots of vinegar on / around the screw and leave it overnight this may help release it.

Looking at the screen and the edge of the dispersion block it looks quite corroded.


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## crlbt

I think that brown stuff is actually coffee. When I was trying to unscrew it before, I put machine upside-down and applied almost all my bodyweight. Bent one screw driver. Also I don't have a drill. Thinks I'll get that brass head.


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## yardbent

pics needed of dispersion block to prove we were right [or wrong] about a mucky machine.....









did you think to order a* new group head gasket*..?

if not,, i have several new 72 x 56 x 8.5mm ones

let me know if one is needed..?

when all is freshly installed - maybe a cleaning back-flush would be in order.?

good luck.!


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## crlbt

Thanks yardbent, I thinks if the portafilter doesn't leak I don't need it yet.


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## crlbt

So I just ordered one - £19, not super cheap for a piece of metal.

Btw, I have La Marzocco Strada 17g basket, not IMS, not sure if it's good or not.


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## hotmetal

I might be wrong but I think the LM Strada 17g baskets are as close as you'll get to a VST 18g without it actually having VST written on it. So I'd say it's a good basket. Good luck with removing the screw. Mine gave me a bit of trouble at first but I got there in the end and was glad I did because there was all manner of gunk behind. The standard dispersion block (metal bit the shower screen screws into) will also probably be hideously discoloured if it's been back flushed with Cafiza/Puly. Tasted much better after I'd stripped everything and cleaned it.


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## El carajillo

I agree with H M the M /Z Strada is as close as you can get to the VST, having had a IMS basket I find the VST much better .


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## crlbt

Should I put 18g in the basket then (if it's the same as VST 18g) instead of 17? Currently when I put 17g the puck is very soggy and has water on top.


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## El carajillo

It will depend on the bean and the fineness of the grind, you can try 18 gm's tamp, then place a 1 p coin on the puck and insert P/F into machine. Remove P/F and examine the puck, if there is an indent from the coin it is too full, if not it is fine to use. You could also try with 19 gm's (depending on bean and grind ) and the coin test .


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## crlbt

Doesn't look too bad, does it?


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## crlbt




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## jeebsy

Is the machine itself quite corroded? What's it's history?


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## crlbt

But all brown stuff you see is coffee, I can easily wipe it with my fingers. Machine is not corroded at all.

It's 3 years old.


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## jeebsy

Post 63 what's the stuff above the top right screw?


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## crlbt

All stuff is scale colorised by coffee, coffee dust.


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## urbanbumpkin

Take the block off too and give it a good soak.


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## crlbt

I bought a brass one, should be delivered tomorrow.


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## jeebsy

It looks minging.


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## urbanbumpkin

crlbt said:


> I bought a brass one, should be delivered tomorrow.


What does it look like under the block? You'll need to clean that too. Might be worth getting a new gasket (depending on what the old one is like.


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## crlbt

I did, it was pretty gross under it, now looks more or less clean.


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## crlbt

Maybe needs a bit more cleaning


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## jeebsy

I'm off work today, if you're still struggling later on let me know and could maybe sort something out


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## seeq

Any updates @crlbt ?


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## yardbent

crlbt said:


> I bought a brass one, should be delivered tomorrow.


is it fitted yet..?

where did you buy from - link..?

what you think ..? worth the money..?

thanks


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## crlbt

Hi guys.

It did help to remove some bitterness I think, but it's not day and night difference.

In terms of flavour and taste - it's still the same unfortunately. Coffee from the shop and what I make at home tastes like two different drinks.

Was in the shop yesterday and extraction time was about 40 seconds and it tasted amazing, the other day it was about 25 seconds, the flavour was a bit less intense, but flavour profile was the same.

I think that the problem might be in my grinder. I'll probably ask them next time to grind the beans and see how it taste on my machine, the problem is that for grinding beans for customers they use a different grinder, so it's hard to tell how well it's calibrated.

John - bought everything from espressoservices. co. uk


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## MWJB

So you're still at 17g dose? What brew ratio?

You seem to be setting great store by time? There are reasons why that might vary from the shop to your home, also grind requirements may be different due to preinfusion etc. If they grind it for you in the shop you will have to play with brew ratio, as you won't be able to adjust grind.

May be easier to make headway by grinding yourself & explaining your recipe & prep (exactly), shot by shot?


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## Mrboots2u

MWJB said:


> So you're still at 17g dose? What brew ratio?
> 
> May be easier to make headway by grinding yourself & explaining your recipe & prep (exactly), shot by shot?


This is excellent advice


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## Mistermoleymole

Interesting thread. Would be good to know how you're getting on.


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## crlbt

Hi









The problem was solved buying Expobar DB and setting the temperature to 90 - 91 degrees (I'm not sure how good it was calibrated, but that's the temperature showing on the PID at the moment). Gagia just couldn't make anything drinkable from CC&T house blend. I guess if I bought HX machine, I would still have the same problem.

So to sum it up. Gagia is not shit like I thought before, but it can't do very well with dark roast (or maybe that particular blend I was using). if you are using light to medium roast it should be fine.


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## TomD

Interesting thread as I'm having similar problems with my classic. Shame there wasn't a resolution (other than new machine!!)


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## Nod

I would caution coming to the conclusion. Seems op did not have a quality grinder in order to grind beans at the appropriate coarseness for his machine. This is espresso making 101. I could give u a single group slayer and it would make poor coffee if I don't have a grinder.


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## hotmetal

It's an odd one - Classic and Mignon should be able to make a good extraction. Although my old one was clean, had a better shower screen and a PID, but even with an MC2 I managed to get enjoyable shots some of the time. Buying a better grinder helped (Mazzer Mini then 65E) but I also went the DB route in the end when I got the chance. But I would not ever say a Classic/Mignon pairing is incapable of making good coffee from dark beans (easier than light in theory). But a DB machine does make it easier!


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## crlbt

I put my La Marzocco Strada 17g basket back on, changed grinding settings slightly and I can't pull anything drinkable again! Was playing with it for several hours, wasted probably over 250 grams of coffee and the result is the same horrible taste like from my Gaggia. Wow, I can't believe. Lowered the temperature down to 86 C and still burnt taste with fine grind and salty and bitter with corse.


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## crlbt

@Nod Mignon is not a quality grinder?


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## Mikeymad

This all sounds very confusing... :/


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## Macca

Mikeymad said:


> This all sounds very confusing... :/


As I new user @Mikeymad, I wouldn't worry. The OP sounds like he had a pretty unique experience and possibly set of circumstances, don't let it put you off.

On the assumption you've a Gaggia, have a read through the Gaggia thread. Pretty sure there's a sticky there regarding info for Gaggia new users, I found it a really helpful reference point (and still do!).


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