# Is there a serious problem with coffee capsules?



## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Click here for the BBC article


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Not just the pods, but like most packaging now you pick up at the supermarket is overkill.

Pringles are a classic, 20% Air at the top if you look when opening a new one!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

when i read the headline i had visions of German police kicking in doors and checking houses for nespresso pods.......


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Its an issue for sure. 4 years ago when I lived through a time I like to call the "Nespresso Dynasty". I used to generate tonnes of pod cartridges akin to a slow motion John Woo movie with spent pods falling to floor and doves taking to the air in a serene flight as the coffee died to a moving soundtrack of wailing baby.

Nespresso claim they will collect your pods and recycle ... in reality they are lying bastions and the pods sit on your doorstep for weeks until you throw them in the bin .... a bin which is noticeably heavier with them in.

I am just one person

imagine what a city of nespresso drinkers can generate


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Not just the pods, but like most packaging now you pick up at the supermarket is overkill.
> 
> Pringles are a classic, 20% Air at the top if you look when opening a new one!


Don't get me started...Cadburys chocolate fingers (mmm...luverly), I have not bought them for years. One time a pack was 150g and is pissed me off then when there was about 1/3 empty space in the pack. Then they stealth nerfed them down to 125g and that was it for me, the packaging (unchanged) is now twice the size it needs to be. About a year or so ago they steal nerfed em again down to 114g, with the same size packaging!!!

cadburys...I hate u

I am a big one for the 3 Rs...reduce, reuse, recycle.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Smokes! now serving 19 per pack, same size box...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Smokes! now serving 19 per pack, same size box...


Really... I used to smoke, gave up 15 years ago now...how sneaky.....the bstards


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

When the hierarchy start turning the lights off at Wembley and other such so called monuments/offices around the country to conserve energy then perhaps I'll start recycling more.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Jacko112 said:


> When the hierarchy start turning the lights off at Wembley and other such so called monuments/offices around the country to conserve energy then perhaps I'll start recycling more.


since 2007 its uses 100% renewable energy, they only light the stadium arch at events and its a zero waste to landfill site .... so you might want to increase your recycling by 30% to keep up with their efforts


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## Jacko112 (Oct 29, 2015)

Ah I live & learn then...perhaps China can learn from this?


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

Serious issue? Other than coffee that tastes vaguely of cack?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Jacko112 said:


> Ah I live & learn then...perhaps China can learn from this?


nah, its still crap, its just 30% less crap than you thought it was ... so if you just recycle 1/3rd of your beer cans you can sleep at night


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## Luc_ cI_I (Jan 25, 2016)

froggystyle said:


> when i read the headline i had visions of German police kicking in doors and checking houses for nespresso pods.......


lmao


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## Luc_ cI_I (Jan 25, 2016)

I don't mean to offend but nespresso is such a lazy practice perpetuated by people who don't really have a decent taste in coffee nor saving management skills. I guess what you spend with these little terrors every year would be enough to buy a real barista machine AND real good coffee, which these pods barely offer. I won't even get started on the aluminum foils issue.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

"It's 6g of coffee in 3g of packaging,"

Whoever invented that deserves to have their door kicked in by German police and then Russian police and then the rest of the UN nations police forces.....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Luc_ cI_I said:


> I don't mean to offend but nespresso is such a lazy practice perpetuated by people who don't really have a decent taste in coffee nor saving management skills. I guess what you spend with these little terrors every year would be enough to buy a real barista machine AND real good coffee, which these pods barely offer. I won't even get started on the aluminum foils issue.


Some people just want to drink nice coffee & don't want to learn a new skill/time consuming hobby. If you buy a "real barista machine and real good coffee" you still have to learn how to make it & until you do, you only have the potential for a good cup.

This forum and every other coffee forum handles significant traffic from people struggling with "real good" machines, grinders & beans, sometimes wasting the best part of a bag at a time. It's swings & roundabouts.


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

I agree but think that there has been a couple of generations of disconnect between raw ingredients and making quality food or drink, partly because of consumerism and profit leading to a dumbing down in peoples everyday experience of foodstuff, I suppose my issue is when the marketing boys play games in claiming a quality product when in fact its just a convenient product, consumers are mugged into thinking that their capsule machine is as good as it gets or in the beer world being told "Carlsberg is probably the best lager in the world"!!! . The same issue applies to beer, bread and coffee we all are happy with the quick and convenient until we realise what we have missed out on and pay a bit more or take more time and effort when we want to.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Im not sure that a huge amount of people in this country had a massive connection to the raw ingredient of coffee - i may be wrong tho

If capsules can up the game in terms of tasty and vairiety id be in there


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Where's the fun in a capsule though?


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

jimbojohn55 said:


> pay a bit more or take more time and effort when we want to.


Yeah, right!

Seriously, there's too much hate on this forum regarding Starbucks/instant/pods/etc. Okay, we enjoy higher quality product and blah blah, but it does not make any of us superior. Coffee is not like wine which you would drink occasionally and enjoy, coffee is one of most popular drinks that people drink many times a day. Unfortunately, it's not always for the sake of taste.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

None at all! But most people don't drink/make coffee for fun - they're happy if its warm and wet. The cost of Nespresso pods is comparable to making your own espresso and the machines are priced at used Classic-used HX prices. I do also wonder how eco friendly it is having my R58 on all day compared to a Nespresso machine that warms up its thermoblock in seconds and is therefore off or on standby. Nespresso is a huge generator of waste packaging though - and a slick hard-sell marketing force to be reckoned with.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

froggystyle said:


> Where's the fun in a capsule though?


Depends what you define as fun .....i could sell my gear and go on hols to new york with the procedes .. now thats fun


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PPapa said:


> Yeah, right!
> 
> Seriously, there's too much hate on this forum regarding Starbucks/instant/pods/etc. Okay, we enjoy higher quality product and blah blah, but it does not make any of us superior. Coffee is not like wine which you would drink occasionally and enjoy, coffee is one of most popular drinks that people drink many times a day. Unfortunately, it's not always for the sake of taste.


I make coffee for me , to my preferences.. cafe's have the unenviable effort of trying to make something to please lots of people ... sometimes that means lowest common denominator prevails ( sweet and big , same each place , perceived good value, dash of " that' the way i like it " ) sometimes it doesn't ...

Forums like this thrive on machine and gear threads - that's not a criticism of here - all the other coffee forums are the same .. if you removed the toys for the boys , what would be left

yes i get i am a massive hypocrit with all the stuff i own and the sentiment above .....


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## drude (Apr 22, 2013)

At work I don't have time to make coffee. If I could get a cheap machine and could use pods and have an acceptable drink in a few seconds, that would be perfect. I can't see me selling my home setup, but I'm interested to see how Maxwell's pods turn out.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> . if you removed the toys for the boys , what would be left
> 
> ..


No means of making coffee!


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

coffeechap said:


> No means of making coffee!


But if we all had nespresso machines we'd still have our espresso but with none of the gear discussions. Because everyone would have the same kit.

A lot of the discussion with espresso revolves around "look how amazing and expensive my machine/grinder is"


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

We would have to talk about actual taste ? .... Screw that ... Check out my tamper it costs £300 and claims to make my coffee 1.8% better


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

h1udd said:


> We would have to talk about actual taste ? .... Screw that ... Check out my tamper it costs £300 and claims to make my coffee 1.8% better


Where is this £300 tamper u talk off


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Capsule +machine +forum = dead end

100's varieties Coffee Beans, 100s of machine types, 100's varieties grinders, 100's of techniques = endless discussion


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Potentially tastier drinks more of the time - less effort = win


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

£300 tampers - found them http://www.tampers.mj777.com/index_en.htm is there a prize


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

risky said:


> A lot of the discussion with espresso revolves around "look how amazing and expensive my machine/grinder is"


...but i'm not making good coffee with it, help!


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

My experience of the Nespresso end product - the drink - is not good.

Add to that the horrid clinical sterility of the concept and process, and the enslavement to 'software' that only a big companies can make and control, then it is not for me. I'm ooot.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

lotuseater said:


> My experience of the Nespresso end product - the drink - is not good.
> 
> Add to that the horrid clinical sterility of the concept and process, and the enslavement to 'software' that only a big companies can make and control, then it is not for me. I'm ooot.


I'd take 'enslavement' to software and therefore increased consistency over a myriad of settings, most of which people don't even change or a machine that is less consistent.

As for clinical and sterile, I appreciate you maybe feel more removed from the process, but that isn't a bad thing when humans are inherently inconsistent and introduce a lot of variables into the process.

Imagine yourself in a high end shop. OD grinder, and gravimetric or volumetric machine. Is that clinical and sterile? Press about two buttons and tamp.

Matt Perger has already spoken about how 'super automatic' machines are the future and it makes sense. Not sure why home users would intentionally suffer for the sake of 'craft'.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Given how many people drop £1000-1500 on a machine and the same on a grinder then come on here because they're struggling with it, you'd think pods which produce tasty coffee with no effort or requirement to understand anything would be a great option


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

He has a good point - and it you don't get the pod in jussst the right position it has a very strange after taste....

~


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

To be fair this isn't a thread purely about Maxwell's pods or whatever you think he's speaking against. lotuseater clearly says that the experience they're commenting on is related the nespresso drinks. No tar or brush involved IMO


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agree doesn't mean all future pods being crap tho does it ?

Plus the wifi Bluetooth r60 is more likely to gain AI and enslave you than a pod machine









I am pretty sure that's how the cylons started

( next product line the fracino cylon )


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

jlarkin said:


> To be fair this isn't a thread purely about Maxwell's pods or whatever you think he's speaking against. lotuseater clearly says that the experience they're commenting on is related the nespresso drinks. No tar or brush involved IMO


Fair point, I thought I was in the Maxwell thread so post edited.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Given how many people drop £1000-1500 on a machine and the same on a grinder then come on here because they're struggling with it, you'd think pods which produce tasty coffee with no effort or requirement to understand anything would be a great option


Entirely this. I see far more people on here I would describe as 'enslaved' to buying more and more higher end gear because they don't enjoy the coffee they're getting. And it doesn't fix the problem.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jlarkin said:


> To be fair this isn't a thread purely about Maxwell's pods or whatever you think he's speaking against. lotuseater clearly says that the experience they're commenting on is related the nespresso drinks. No tar or brush involved IMO


In terms of producing a reasonable drink, Nespresso simply isn't as bad as folk are making out. It's consistent.

@lotuseater 's points about "software" & "big companies" don't make any sense either, espresso is a technologically derived product, many machines & grinders incorporate software, Mazzer & Kitchenaid are big companies...but they don't put him off.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The fracino cylon fails in the future tho due to inadequate drip tray capacity ( just Incase you were worried )

It's when it mates with the miss Silvia that the world is threatened

For this to happen tho it needs the fracino colon upgrade

Brought a whole new meaning to backflushing


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

Oh dear - touched a nerve or two here! The word software was in inverted commas for goodness sake. it really doesn't do for a newbie to make somewhat strident, tongue-in-cheek posts on here does it! Maybe when my post count is higher it'll be ok







?

Glad you edited out the reference that insinuated I have mental health problems, it was unbecoming of a Moderator.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

And people who get frustrated because they only got the coffee dialled in on the last couple of shots - that would be eliminated


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> The fracino cylon fails in the future tho due to inadequate drip tray capacity ( just Incase you were worried )
> 
> It's when it mates with the miss Silvia that the world is threatened
> 
> ...


Are you Sarah Conner ?..........................................


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Don't answer that .. It never ends well


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Can we please get back on point

I have reviewed the posts and no one is insinuating anyone has mental health problems

Use the 'report post' icon and I can review any posts that members have concerns about

This is a forum to discuss coffee (and machines)

'software' was used in reference to the delivery method


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Pod machines or some derivative is probably the future , but I think as most things in this consumer society I think the environmental impact of packaging needs to be addressed .


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

ah yes...it was about coffee capsules. bloody waste, can i say bloody?


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

Glenn said:


> Can we please get back on point
> 
> I have reviewed the posts and no one is insinuating anyone has mental health problems
> 
> ...


The 'software' = capsules, beans, instant granules - whatever form.

'Hardware' = Nespresso machine, grinders, Rockets, LaMarzoccos, kettles etc.

Mental Health: it was removed, thankfully, but your moderator colleague suggested I needed to make a tin foil hat!

Anyway to get back on point, there is a lot more packaging in capsules than whole beans...


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The making of a tin foil hat is commonly referred to - to protect the wearer from outside influences - and does not signify mental health issues


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

At the end of the day it's horses for courses isn't it? I don't claim to be a super taster or have robotic levels of consistency.

BUT

I do believe that the coffee I make is far superior to Nespresso. I do NOT believe that I am far superior to people that drink Nespresso. I gave my mum a Citiz for goodness sake. She is never going to buy a Classic and a Mignon! But I do enjoy the craft, the challenge, the fun of trying to hit the tasting notes, or trying to pour some half acceptable latte art. It's the journey, not the destination. We all know this because almost every new member is greeted with 'enjoy your coffee journey'.

Plus where would the forum be if all we had to talk about is "I like the orange pods *pah! Only green ones are good enough for me..."? I bet there'd still be people posting pics of their Pixie and wishing that one day they could upgrade to a Gran Maestria *that makes exactly the same tasting shot LOL!*

The biggest problem I have with N (aside from concerns over recycling and how fairly they trade with suppliers) - in other words the end product - is exactly that it is so consistent. It's soulless.

There is the rub! I've committed Pergery  or some sort of heresy. Here we are going on about consistency, of tamp, temp grind, etc. All of which is necessary to improve the quality of shot. But I dislike Nespresso for the same reason as I dislike chain restaurants, McBurgerKing, coffee conglomerates and Identikit high streets. I get great pleasure from being pleasantly surprised by what I see/eat/drink. If I have a coffee out, I want it to taste good and I want to see the barista take pride in his work. If I have a burger, I want to be able to say 'wow that was tasty' not 'that's the same as ever' and if I travel around its nice to see quaint towns that don't all consist of the same big stores as every other high street.

Character, individuality, the human touch with all its imperfections is preferable to me than mind-numbing predictability (even if the quality is consistently good which is rarely the case). When was the last time you had a friendly exchange and a laugh with a vending machine?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok

So Macdonald's is consistent but crap ....

You could propose that tasty pods variety and character would could from the differing bean and and how its roasted ( not how it's extracted ) ..

Again i may be odd but i am not in love with the process and equipment re making coffee ...

If ( and its a big if.... ) there was a system that allowed some of the inconsistency to be removed , kept character and variety as a function of bean , process, and roasting ( as opposed to a function of barista ) then i would still be up for it ....

In the end do you want the bean and varietal and processing and roasting to be the character or how you choose to extract it..

Not saying one is right or wrong , just proposing the question

How many times do you hear " it's nothing like the tasting notes " remove the barista variances and what your left with is a choice of is the coffee to your preference or not ....


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yeah that would be interesting to see. Not for me necessarily for the reasons I say - I enjoy the ritual, the challenge, the learning process as much as the end product - but I'd be well up for it at work, say, when you want a good, genuinely enjoyable coffee without having the time to mess about. It would be infinitely preferable to the Costa-branded push-button bean-to-cup machine they have behind the counter in our canteen which is undrinkable. I would buy your Spoonpodomatic for my mum so I don't have to drink 'mere' Nespresso. But at home I'd miss the fun.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Can't wait for the sale of your kit bootsy, it will go cheap as it won't make coffee as good as the pods and will be a little old hat. Does anyone know how much these "maxwell pods"will cost?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> The fracino cylon fails in the future tho due to inadequate drip tray capacity ( just Incase you were worried )
> 
> It's when it mates with the miss Silvia that the world is threatened
> 
> ...


The answer to all our prayers - the Fracino Cylon pod machine is a reality, captain Jack knows where to put the pods and how to backflush it - top man

~

~

The larger Silva commercial version is available as well


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Worryingly it's also rather obvious where it keeps the pods. Pass the mental floss!

Edit: I see you've removed the pic (copyright or public decency?!) so my post makes no sense now! Space aliens in Speedos - they're never going to rule the galaxy.


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

Glenn said:


> The making of a tin foil hat is commonly referred to - to protect the wearer from outside influences - and does not signify mental health issues


"The *tinfoil hat is a sort of mocking symbol of **paranoia** ... ...*a popular stereotype and byword for paranoia..."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tinfoil_hat

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=tinfoil+hat


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

@hotmetal automation gives the barista more time for interaction with customers ..... Less time head down making drinks


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

lotuseater said:


> "The *tinfoil hat is a sort of mocking symbol of **paranoia** ... ...*a popular stereotype and byword for paranoia..."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat
> 
> ...


Wind your neck in. Someone can be paranoid without having mental health issues.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I'll give you that boots. But then we wouldn't need baristas. If s pod machine was as good as the real deal, those Costa Express vending machines would produce better coffee for less cost (for the retailer not the consumer). Hence my closing line at the end of my unfeasibly long essay at #52.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Wind your neck in. Someone can be paranoid without having mental health issues.


Or is that just what the New World Order want you to think?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> I'll give you that boots. But then we wouldn't need baristas. If s pod machine was as good as the real deal, those Costa Express vending machines would produce better coffee for less cost (for the retailer not the consumer). Hence my closing line at the end of my unfeasibly long essay at #52.


Who's going to steam your milk? Talk you about beans? Where will the tattoos, beards and beanies go?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

I think i've asked this before, but does anyone know much about the Bella Barista pods?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Fair point about the milk jeebsy - no pod machine is going to do latte art!


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

oursus said:


> I think i've asked this before, but does anyone know much about the Bella Barista pods?


I have some so my missus will make coffee if I am not about ... They are ok, again not as good as the real deal, they pour a little fast ... I prefer nespresso

oh and if you don't get the adaptor basket hot enough it pisses water out everywhere

she still doesn't make coffee, so when they are gone ... I am back only using beans.

i am getting through them slowly though, my wife prefers them as it makes the drink taste like what she gets from Costa


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Perhaps nespresso could add a dial to their machines that increases the variance of the shot more the further you turn it,

so at Zero you get a perfect shot ... But at 1 you get a shot that's 30seconds +\-1 sec and volume 18ml +\- 1ml

turn it to 11 and you get a coffee akin to newbie with no scales or timer and a delonghi bean to cup machine


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

oursus said:


> I think i've asked this before, but does anyone know much about the Bella Barista pods?


Theres the PACT ones to consider too.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

lotuseater said:


> "The *tinfoil hat is a sort of mocking symbol of **paranoia** ... ...*a popular stereotype and byword for paranoia..."
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat
> 
> ...


Oh dear


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Perhaps nespresso could add a dial to their machines that increases the variance of the shot more the further you turn it,
> 
> so at Zero you get a perfect shot ... But at 1 you get a shot that's 30seconds +\-1 sec and volume 18ml +\- 1ml
> 
> turn it to 11 and you get a coffee akin to newbie with no scales or timer and a delonghi bean to cup machine


Hahaha love it! Where do I $ign? The perfect blend of convenience and lack of consistency.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

aaronb said:


> Theres the PACT ones to consider too.


The BB ones seemed to be directed more to a commercial machine (with attendant milk steaming etc), I was looking at one a couple of yrs ago, as they didn't seem a bad price & had been told that was the way the restaurant trade was going - the little thermoblock nespresso machines seem to have gained a little more credibility; or at least aren't derided quite as much as they used to be - so maybe the professional pods are a bit of an evolutionary dead-end now...(excepting ese)

I'm assuming the same rules apply tho, better as close as possible to manufacture & the packaging around the pod will dictate oxidation rates... Roasters taking up making nespresso pods is an interesting development tho @aaronb, I'll be curious to try some of those... I feel your pain on the Costa loving partner @h1udd , the only thing worse is one who did barista training


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Personally i welcome the new developments from PACT & Maxwell. Anything that gives greater variety is IMO a good thing. I'm not into the theatre of making coffee, just the taste. So, if i can cheaply purchase a machine that easily makes good coffee with reasonable variety of bean/roast, i can't see the problem.

At the moment it is never going to compete with the choice available of grind your own beans. You could buy a different bag for every day of the year. I can't see that happening with pods. I'm not sure that the market is there for quality pods but i hope it is. I think most pod owners are happy to put the bog standard pods in their machines. It's going to take some time before this type of user turns to quality pods (or is even aware of them).

As to the environmental impact? No doubt it's not good but how much plastic do we find our various groceries wrapped in from the supermarket? From yoghurt tubs to pre packaged fruit/veg. I don't think you can single out coffee pods as being a worse offender in this respect. They should be made simple to recycle.

I'm not sure that it will be quite a simple as pressing one button - yet.

My only direct experience is with a very simple Lavazzo pod machine. Lavazzo offer around 10 to 12 different blends. You press on/off to start/end extraction and each of the coffees need a different time/volume to produce a properly extracted shot. So there is an element of dialling in. Perhaps other types of machines are more sophisticated. Or will the pod makers have to produce pods from different beans that always extract in the same time or with a set volume? Given the plethora of machines from different makers for the same pod systems it sounds challenging.

Maybe the forthcoming quality pods from quality roasters will recommend an extraction time included in the pack?

It's certainly going to be interesting to see what happens.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I think with Nespresso the idea is that they license the tech to several manufacturers so it makes zero difference which machine in the range you buy, and which manufacturers badge is on the front. The whole thing is tightly controlled by the mothership and suppliers of 'compatibles' will have to ensure that what they make works with what is a very consistent machine. That actually makes it easier for aftermarket pod manufacturers as they effectively only need to make it work on one machine as they're so homogeneous. I only have experience of Nespresso and don't really know about the other systems. (Ignoring Tassimo as a contender).

From what I remember from working for Nespresso the coffee is ground to a very tight range and sealed into the capsules in a protective atmosphere within seconds of exiting the grinder. In theory this is supposed to negate the freshness issue. That may be a tough act to follow for smaller roasters. On the other hand the smaller guys might be using better coffee to start with - hard to say.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

As an example - looking at the KitchenAid Nespresso machine retailing at £350 (so upper end of market), it seems to be pre-programmed to produce 6 different volumes from a pod (25ml,40,60,90,110,130) supposedly reflecting a range from ristretto to lungo. How does it manage to produce optimally extracted shots for each volume as it claims to do?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I guess the answer is it doesn't. At least - Nespresso themselves make pods for 3 different volumes IIRC. I suppose though that the KA machine allows you to deviate from that if you want to try a particular pod pulled a little longer or shorter.


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

...


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Wind your neck in. Someone can be paranoid without having mental health issues.


Oh really? Explain.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

lotuseater said:


> Oh really? Explain.


I could be paranoid my haircut is funny. Doesn't mean I have paranoid schizophrenia


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

So the nespresso compatabile pod makers will have to decide which volume of output they are going for per pod and make a blend grind/dose that produces an optimal extraction at that set volume across all nespresso machines. Presumably all compatible machines must have at least one standard output volume that the speciality roasters can aim for.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Step21 said:


> As an example - looking at the KitchenAid Nespresso machine retailing at £350 (so upper end of market), it seems to be pre-programmed to produce 6 different volumes from a pod (25ml,40,60,90,110,130) supposedly reflecting a range from ristretto to lungo. How does it manage to produce optimally extracted shots for each volume as it claims to do?


The Nespresso capsules have little icons on them to signify ristretto (25ml), espresso (40ml), lungo - the capsules are targeted at certain length drinks. So you might use 25 or 40ml for ristretto/espresso capsules, 60-130ml for lungo (lungos of 110ml & more are likely to be overextracted in my experience). They seem to have wider window of good tasting extractions than typical espresso from burr grinders, lacking bitterness from over-extraction well into the mid 20's EY-wise.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Beat me to it Mark


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> I could be paranoid my haircut is funny. Doesn't mean I'm suffering from paranoid schizophrenia


That is reasonable, justified concern about your bouffant. Not paranoia.

Paranoid ideation occurs in a number of mental disorders not just paranoid schizophrenia. For example delusional disorder, puerperal psychosis, paranoid personality disorder and also organic states.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> I could be paranoid my haircut is funny. Doesn't mean I have paranoid schizophrenia


I've seen your haircut - you are right be be paranoid


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

MWJB said:


> They seem to have wider window of good tasting extractions than typical espresso from burr grinders, lacking bitterness from over-extraction well into the mid 20's EY-wise.


Is this the bit that was always speculated as to how they achieved it? Due to the methods being kept a tight company secret etc.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> I've seen your haircut - you are right be be paranoid


Not helping


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

risky said:


> Is this the bit that was always speculated as to how they achieved it? Due to the methods being kept a tight company secret etc.


I guess it's probably a benefit of roller mill grinding, where distributions can be more accurately targeted? As extraction continues, it slows down in terms of extraction rate, James Hoffmann plotted 21%EY at 30g out, 25%EY at over 70g out...http://www.jimseven.com/2015/05/21/an-analysis-of-nespresso-part-i/


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

MWJB said:


> I guess it's probably a benefit of roller mill grinding, where distributions can be more accurately targeted? As extraction continues, it slows down in terms of extraction rate, James Hoffmann plotted 21%EY at 30g out, 25%EY at over 70g out...http://www.jimseven.com/2015/05/21/an-analysis-of-nespresso-part-i/


Ah thanks I was sure someone had refracted it. Roller mills for greatness then. I'm sure they're probably the size of a small car though?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

lotuseater said:


> That is reasonable, justified concern about your bouffant. Not paranoia.
> 
> Paranoid ideation occurs in a number of mental disorders not just paranoid schizophrenia. For example delusional disorder, puerperal psychosis, paranoid personality disorder and also organic states.


So what about being paranoid 'the man' is out to get you? Is there a sliding scale going from being concerned about increasing government intrusion, dsm nonsense to full blown psychosis?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

If you can afford the 'limited edition barista' version it's only the size of an Aygo. Hey maybe Kitchen Aid will bring out one that looks like a Fiat 500. The KA Ka. ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

risky said:


> Ah thanks I was sure someone had refracted it. Roller mills for greatness then. I'm sure they're probably the size of a small car though?


Small house in some cases  Starting prices about £50K?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Sarah Connor was paranoid that robots from the future were trying to kill her. They thought she had mental health issues, but she didn't


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> So what about being paranoid 'the man' is out to get you? Is there a sliding scale going from being concerned about increasing government intrusion, dsm nonsense to full blown psychosis?


Legitimate, understandable concern is just that - legitimate, understandable concern. If the security services are really after me then it's not paranoia. If I am concerned about intrusion as a libertarian issue it is not paranoid.

Paranoia, by definition, is when ideas and fear go beyond what objective evidence could support. Hence it is always pathological.

Let's leave it at that and return to the coffee?


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## lotuseater (Dec 25, 2015)

h1udd said:


> Sarah Connor was paranoid that robots from the future were trying to kill her. They thought she had mental health issues, but she didn't


Exactly my point - see above. She was never paranoid. The Drs were wrong.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Sarah Connor was paranoid that robots from the future were trying to kill her. They thought she had mental health issues, but she didn't


Might watch that tonight after all the talk.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

When you watch it, mentally replace the t-100/Skynet references with nespresso ones

Nespresso machines; New... powerful... hooked into everything, trusted to run it all. They say they got smart, a new order of intelligence. Then they saw all people as a threat, not just the coffee shop baristas Decided our fate in a microsecond: over extraction


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

MWJB said:


> Small house in some cases  Starting prices about £50K?


I can't see the economics of this for a small speciality roaster. That would be a huge investment on equipment in what is a small and as yet unproven market sector. They must be working on an alternative and significantly cheaper method of grinding for pods?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Step21 said:


> I can't see the economics of this for a small speciality roaster. That would be a huge investment on equipment in what is a small and as yet unproven market sector. They must be working on an alternative and significantly cheaper method of grinding for pods?


Guess an EK-43 might do it, if you're constrained to a given capsule size & weight (6g+), then I imagine you'll need a grinder that can hit high EYs to prevent being limited to a tiny shot size & narrow window.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Unless this is related to this grinder project Maxwell is undertaking which seems to be concerned with ultra low temperature grinding from the pharmaceutical industry?


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I can see that the new pods thing could improve the current pods by miles (by using better coffee) but for me, it's the lack of ability to make any adjustments that will be the stumbling block. I'm thinking primarily about water differences. Having said that, perhaps Maxwell (of all people) will be thinking about that and providing some level of adjustment based on local water composition type stuff. The point about grinding process, quality and production conditions is fascinating. Although the big companies probably use rubbish coffee, they will have invested vast sums in grinding and production processes so it'll be interesting to see how the business progresses.

Still, preference is preference and being able to tweak things a bit is important for me. I guess some sort of auto, one button mode and some level of manual control too would be good i.e. temp or water volume etc.

It's definitely super interesting stuff and anything that raises the bar for the average coffee drinker has got to be a good thing. If someone had a better pod machine at home, they would presumably by much less inclined to ever buy anything from Starbucks and the like. Personally, I'd love to see Maxwell dominate the world In this area.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

The volume thing is easy .... You just hold the button down when you are ready to stop, release it ..... The next time you want shot if you press the button once it outputs the same amount of water it did the last time

so you can use it in a manual mode with scales quite easily .... Temp though is static


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

This is old news.. Just wrapped up in a different brand.

I started out with a Dolce Gusto, a friend who works at Nestlé gave it to me when they were given them one year. It was great to start off with but the milk powder lets it's down. Using pre-ground coffee through the Dualit Espressivo I was given a while later was a significant improvement, it meant a I could steam real milk!

Pods are a means to an end, they offer instant gratification with no skill necessary. The aren't just limited to coffee either; they produce tea, hot chocolate and many other flavoured hot and cold drinks. There lies the attraction. Plus if you acquire a reusable pod (or make one, as I did) you can then fill it with ground coffee of your choice.

Which taxi do you get in? The mucky old Mondeo was the pine tree hanging from the mirror, or the brand new Merc? If it's pissing it down, you get into the first one that comes.. Convenience isn't often fussy.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Having to acquire skill to make great coffee is ( along with cost ) a massive barrier to more people enjoying better espresso based coffee in the first place .


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Having to acquire skill to make great coffee is ( along with cost ) a massive barrier to more people enjoying better espresso based coffee in the first place .


Do those machines (I've never actually used one) make espresso type drinks?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Having failed with five elephant yesterday (well it's a continuing struggle but they're winning currently) and missing the mark with the ebel kechera (HasBean Ethiopian could be wrong spelling) this morning I'm thinking a pod would be quite handy.

I'd buy the one with a lever attached (that they don't make YET) that just actuates the switch to run a normal espresso machine


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Isn't it all a bit like cameras? iPhones get better at taking pictures every year. The photo quality is getting better and better. But however good they get, people will always buy DSLRs because they allow that degree of control. I think that's the danger of these sorts of conversations. Better, convenient coffee has got to be a good thing but it's a different thing.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Do those machines (I've never actually used one) make espresso type drinks?


Pods> yes then you can add milk perhaps

Didnt express myself v well... getting people into brewed is even a bigger barrier ( even on here sometimes ) ...


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

I do think the whole thing has scope. It just needs to be kept in context that's all. The exciting thing for me is that I can really see this helping to get people away from the chains when having a coffee out.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> I do think the whole thing has scope. It just needs to be kept in context that's all. The exciting thing for me is that I can really see this helping to get people away from the chains when having a coffee out.


Agree>i should be complimentary to what the rest of us like to do as HB .. but remove some of the barriers to people who quite rightly think we are a little mad


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Having to acquire skill to make great coffee is ( along with cost ) a massive barrier to more people enjoying better espresso based coffee in the first place .


True; the cost barrier is relative though. Going from jars of instant to a pod machine with their 'sealed in freshness' pods is a jump in itself for most people. Then there's the cost of the pods - hardly cheap for what you get.

Its well known that we live in a 'throw away' society, and with 75% of recycling being dumped to landfill (it is in York anyway, not widely known but true..) who's the muppets out of this? We do our bit for the environment, or so we think.. But while those who tell us to wipe our noses are sneezing all over us then what's the point?


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Video pulled out of the article of the original post






LOL


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The cost here is relative though, I am sure it is in the interests of roasters to get on board with the capsule development as instead of £30 per kilo they will be getting £100 plus per kilo.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Perhaps if pod coffee becomes mainstream we can modify our existing coffee grinders to grind up the empty pods for recycling . And then take the resulting chewed up stuff put that in a 3D printer and then make more pod type coffee machines.

i am off now to have a bowl of soylent green


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

PACT's pricing appears to be £15 for 40 pods in a letter box sized package.

Im sure I saw an offer of 4 pods for £1 trial but cant see it anywhere now.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

aaronb said:


> PACT's pricing appears to be £15 for 40 pods in a letter box sized package.
> 
> Im sure I saw an offer of 4 pods for £1 trial but cant see it anywhere now.


So £60 per kilo then


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

foundrycoffeeroasters.com said:


> Isn't it all a bit like cameras? iPhones get better at taking pictures every year. The photo quality is getting better and better. But however good they get, people will always buy DSLRs because they allow that degree of control. I think that's the danger of these sorts of conversations. Better, convenient coffee has got to be a good thing but it's a different thing.


There's more to it than just a degree of control, such as bigger sensor, better lens, focusing mechanisms, better frames/sec ratio, etc. Combined with a better degree of adjustability, this all leads to better quality if you know what's going on. It's very similar with coffee machines as well, person with an EK43 and a GS3 would make a worse drink than most of you with supermarket coffee and an AeroPress...

I've worked with/used/tried/demoed things such as Carl Zeiss lenses, Canon 1D, plenty of Canon L series lenses, etc. Never needed most of them, but who wouldn't want to use such toys if they had an opportunity...

I guess it's the same in any field: cars, bikes, etc. Some years ago we were cycling along the road. My younger pal (18ish year old at that time) with a techy road bike and cool clothing was behind me and my other friend in his forties, who had a 26" mountain bike which was not well serviced for many years and was making a lot of noise...


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I have a cannon 350d ... The pictures are awesom. ... My favourite picture I took however was of my daughter on the 1st day of school when she bounced out the classroom with a massive smile on her face ... I took that picture on my iPhone, the iPhone is convenient, it lives in my pocket and I don't want to lug around a 350d every time I go out.

everyone knows pods won't be as good or as cheap as beans ... But it's a different market ... If I am working on the bike and fancy a coffee, I want to pop a pod in wait 27 second and have a decent coffee, I don't want to wash grease of my hands, start measuring beans grinding, weighing blah blag blah ... I want a cup of coffee. ... And if maxwell can improve on the nespresso pods, I'll buy them


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

At 05:00 I use volumetric controls as I haven't woken up enough to have the patience for fiddling. After two espresso from that method I'm ready to try and get the best out of the coffee. So I guess when I'm struggling to get awake I would opt for Nespresso if it was drinkable (doubtful) but a couple of those and I'm ready to be a hobbyist barista.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ridland said:


> So I guess when I'm struggling to get awake I would opt for Nespresso if it was drinkable (doubtful) but a couple of those and I'm ready to be a hobbyist barista.


Why do you think a Nespresso being drinkable is doubtful? I am repeatedly & genuinely surprised at how tasty they can be (if weaker than typical espresso), also had Illy Monoarabica capsule shots that were very tasty too, more than "drinkable", actually "nice".


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

just curious, but if I worked for a pod company I would be all over this thread, "extracting" ideas and opinions to tweak product and target potential users, Its an absolute gold mine of thoughts and viewpoints, not that I am implying that is what has happened here.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jimbojohn55 said:


> just curious, but if I worked for a pod company I would be all over this thread, "extracting" ideas and opinions to tweak product and target potential users, Its an absolute gold mine of thoughts and viewpoints, not that I am implying that is what has happened here.


Is there anything here that they are not already doing?


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## Koffee (Feb 11, 2016)

froggystyle said:


> Pringles are a classic, 20% Air at the top if you look when opening a new one!


Even worse is a big bag of chips, must be at least 50% air on top. What a waste.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

aaronb said:


> PACT's pricing appears to be £15 for 40 pods in a letter box sized package.
> 
> Im sure I saw an offer of 4 pods for £1 trial but cant see it anywhere now.


That puts him in exactly the same space as Nespresso's own standard capsules. Nespresso do charge more for 'special editions' that might be regional or style.

I think Nestle believes it is using good coffee and deliberate roast profiles. And it uses foil because the coffee is packed in nitrogen for freshness.

It's also true to say you can change the volume per shot and Nestle distinguish between espresso and ristretto using dose to slow flow.

However, all the machines I have used are wildly inconsistent in terms of water/coffee contact time between capsules from the same 'sleeve' (my hunch is that this is a distribution thing ) so dose doesn't really mean very much and shots are near impossible to control.

My biggest issue with these machines though is that you cannot clean them properly. Try running several empty shots into a clean cup and you'll be put right off.

I speak as one who tried everything in the last six months to extract a decent shot from the Nespresso Citiz machine that came with the company apartment - even tried a form of pre infusion. Nespresso is huge here (Zug). It just doesn't work. These machines are great for an average cup of Joe in an office setting in under 30 seconds but that's their limit.


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

When I was young as a family we went camping in wales.

Me and my dad climbed mount snowden, when we got to the top we enjoyed the stunning views

There were also people who had taken the train to the summit who where enjoying exactly the same view.

Even as a young lad I recognised we were getting more enjoyment of the same view because of the effort we had put in and the sense of achievement we felt enhanced our experience.

Even if pods could deliver the same quality of coffee I would shun them in favour of a real espresso machine, grinder and beans.

For me its just as much about the journey as the destination

And something should be done about the packaging of the pods


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> .
> 
> Even as a young lad I recognised we were getting more enjoyment


no no no no ..... Wrong on so many levels perceiving your own enjoyment over others based upon factors that are important to you is nothing more than a self centred perception. And belief that your way is the only way.

the majority of the people on the train will be enjoying it just as much as you because they didn't have to walk sweatily up a hill.

the family with s toddler are enjoying it just as much, they don't give a crap about the view or the walk ... There toddler just went on his first Cho Cho train ride and lives trains

all these years of self belief that you are better based upon your own desires ... Heh psychologists dream matey


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

so why do people chose to make things instead of buying the finished article ?

say someone makes their own chess board, goes to the library, gets a book and learns how to cut the pieces of veneer exactly square and make it from scratch.

Do they not look at it afterwards and get a sense of satisfaction or has it been a waste of time because they could have saved all that effort and just bought one.


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## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> so why do people chose to make things instead of buying the finished article ?
> 
> say someone makes their own chess board, goes to the library, gets a book and learns how to cut the pieces of veneer exactly square and make it from scratch.
> 
> Do they not look at it afterwards and get a sense of satisfaction or has it been a waste of time because they could have saved all that effort and just bought one.


I think you're missing the point. What h1udd is saying is enjoyment of an experience is individual and subjective. I think what you're saying is that your enjoyment of coffee is enhanced by the satisfaction brought by the effort you put in. However, a nespresso user may get a similar sense of enjoyment but that doesn't make it less or inferior


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

That is the exact point. Assuming everyone's motivations, pleasures and perceptions are the same as your own is recipie for a complete lack of understanding of other people.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

MWJB said:


> Why do you think a Nespresso being drinkable is doubtful? I am repeatedly & genuinely surprised at how tasty they can be (if weaker than typical espresso), also had Illy Monoarabica capsule shots that were very tasty too, more than "drinkable", actually "nice".


From my experience of other Nestlé coffee products, I'm not in the mood to chance another nasty drink. I'll just have a decent cup of tea thanks.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

ridland said:


> From my experience of other Nestlé coffee products,


yeah, I can see why you are sceptical ... nespresso however really isn't like that. Its not a patch on fresh beans though.

I went through a stage of using nespresso for convenience, then I went through a stage of using both together for a while ...... then I bought a La Pavoni europiccola and with the heat up times of the europiccola mixed with a 4 second grind from a decent grinder, haven't touched the nespresso since.

it lays in wait though for Maxwell


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

But seriously bedspread I is not a patch on well prepared coffee, and although I haven't had an answer yet the cost of maxwells pods will far exceed nespresso prices


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

no .... I have never had a nespresso that has come close to what I can make on proper gear

but then I have never had an instant coffee that tastes actually like coffee ... Nespresso, is arguably a decent enough cup of coffee, certainly better than I have ever had from a bean to cup machine

In order of preference I would have

(1) A coffee made my @coffeechap or @Mrboots2u or FCP

(2) A coffee made by me on my gear

(3) A coffee made by Coffee No1 in bristol

(4) A nespresso

(5) A bean to cup coffee

(6) instant

(7) instant from a vending machine

(8) a starbucks mocka chocka ya ya latte


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

h1udd said:


> no no no no ..... Wrong on so many levels perceiving your own enjoyment over others based upon factors that are important to you is nothing more than a self centred perception. And belief that your way is the only way.
> 
> all these years of self belief that you are better based upon your own desires ... Heh psychologists dream matey





h1udd said:


> That is the exact point. Assuming everyone's motivations, pleasures and perceptions are the same as your own is recipie for a complete lack of understanding of other people.


If someone wants to sit at home pricking the plastic film of a microwave meal and you think their enjoyment of it is equal to my enjoyment of my meal that has been prepared from scratch using meat from a reputable butchers then your entitled to that view, but you are wrong.

I like the anticipation, the preparation,, not the immediate gratification.

And yes, i have got self belief, thats a good thing.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

so I enjoy drinking coffee more than you then, because right now I am making my own wooden handles on my lathe for my manual europiccola that you have to pull the shot with no fancy pump doing it for you ? .. with beans that I have roasted myself, not just bought from a shop that roasts them for me ? .. ground them as well by hand, I put the effort into it, felt the beans being ground down, used my own sweat and muscles, didn't just press a button

I get more enjoyment everytime I sit down with my cup of coffee than you do ?

this is what you are saying ?

thats rubbish, I would never belittle or look down on your enjoyment of something ... not because I dont have self belief, but more that dont think of my efforts as more important than yours


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## Jumbo Ratty (Jan 12, 2015)

h1udd said:


> so I enjoy drinking coffee more than you then, because right now I am making my own wooden handles on my lathe for my manual europiccola that you have to pull the shot with no fancy pump doing it for you ? .. with beans that I have roasted myself, not just bought from a shop that roasts them for me ? .. ground them as well by hand, I put the effort into it, felt the beans being ground down, used my own sweat and muscles, didn't just press a button
> 
> I get more enjoyment everytime I sit down with my cup of coffee than you do ?


finally the penny drops


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> If someone wants to sit at home pricking the plastic film of a microwave meal and you think their enjoyment of it is equal to my enjoyment of my meal that has been prepared from scratch using meat from a reputable butchers then your entitled to that view, but you are wrong.
> 
> I like the anticipation, the preparation,, not the immediate gratification.
> 
> And yes, i have got self belief, thats a good thing.


Some people don't care about delayed gratification though. They will be happy as pigs in shit to rip the plastic off the top of their microwave meal and sit down to eat their Penne Arrabiata because they just love it and Supermarket X's own brand is their favourite. You can't say that you enjoy your food more than them because you also get enjoyment out of making it; if they place no value in making it then it can't impact how much or little they enjoy it.

They might actually enjoy it more because ,in their eyes, they haven't had to waste time pissing about in the kitchen - the attraction is in the simplicity.

Neither is right or wrong, just a bit of relativism.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Jumbo Ratty said:


> finally the penny drops


Really ? You think I get more enjoyment out of coffee than you because I put more effort and process into it ?

No ... I get more enjoyment out of coffee than you because I am an over enthusiastic puppy dog


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> But seriously bedspread I is not a patch on well prepared coffee, and although I haven't had an answer yet the cost of maxwells pods will far exceed nespresso prices


If that is the case I'd be surprised to see a success out of all this. Nespresso is mostly used by people who don't want the faff and cannot be bothered to buy proper gear and put more effort in each day. They are not lazy enough for instant, but somewhere in between, like gadgetry perhaps, but not taste-o-holics to spend more on super pods. I'm sure decisions like this pod venture are based on market research, but from where I'm standing this makes little sense if prices are going to much higher than what already is fairly expensive. I just cannot see the market biting.

T.


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