# 1st machine - BE/pro worth £550/£600?



## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Looking at my first machine, I see these are very popular...

so many reviews to read

im just wondering if people who have one think they're worth full price before I pull the trigger.

i see a lot of people got them at the right time & got a great deal, I either buy one at full price or wait 7 months until Christmas.

costco - cheaper but always out of stock

so are they worth their full price ?

thanks


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

Wisey said:


> Looking at my first machine, I see these are very popular...
> so many reviews to read
> im just wondering if people who have one think they're worth full price before I pull the trigger.
> i see a lot of people got them at the right time & got a great deal, I either buy one at full price or wait 7 months until Christmas.
> ...


Considering a used 'prosumer' e61 HX machine could be had for little more IMO no they are not worth full asking price brand new.

I had a BE that I got used for £300 years ago and at that price I think they are great little machines.

Sent from my SM-A405FN using Tapatalk


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Thanks for your thoughts however -

consider I am completely new to the subject, my knowledge is limited so I don't know what is good/bad, I wouldn't know how to take apart/check a used machine or troubleshoot if it wasn't right....

I guess I mean shouldn't spend £550/£600 on these machine or a different one/combination?


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

I think I'd always get a separate grinder and machine. Then you can upgrade them independently. Afaik a DTP (or a bambino, which is what I have) + a SGP would produce broadly equivalent results to a BE.

I want to upgrade my grinder already and I've only been going 4-5 months (I have a Baratza Encore).


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Sounds like a fantastic waste of money.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> Sounds like a fantastic waste of money.


 Rob1 - thanks for the really informative reply. Helping people who are less knowledgable than you, real nice guy thanks

if you don't want to help just ignore my post! I'm not specifically asking you a question so if you don't have anything helpful to say then do one


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Wisey said:


> Rob1 - thanks for the really informative reply. Helping people who are less knowledgable than you, real nice guy thanks
> 
> if you don't want to help just ignore my post! I'm not specifically asking you a question so if you don't have anything helpful to say then do one


 You didn't ask for information, you asked if they are worth it.

Though on closer inspection you do direct the question specifically to owners, so you're quite right I shouldn't have warned you not to waste your money.


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

You can get sage dual boiler for £699 atm from eco cook shop, that's a steal


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

hum...in fairness the Sage machines do have a bit of a reputation for being hard to repair/service. It seems Sage do not go out of their way to make them user-serviceable (parts availability, information).

as a beginner i've been (and still am) very happy with my Bambino. ask me again if/when it breaks! that said they seem to be £380+ atm...i might have considered other options at that price point (including not getting a machine at all).


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

My pro was worth it at £450, but I wouldn't have paid £600 for it. 
It's tricky though as sage fall into the price range where there isn't a lot of other machines with their tech. 
Rancilio Silvia for instance doesn't have a PID nor the Gaggia.

The sage can pull a good espresso, not a truly great one I don't think as the grinder lets it down (depends on beans and tastes YMMV). But they can make a great espresso when combined with a better grinder. 
The best machine sage could make would be the pro without the grinder, kinda like the infuser but updated.

Yes for the same money you're going into second hand territory with a HX machine. But second hand is a dangerous area, you have no idea whether it's been treated well and whether someone has put terrible water through it. It's not like you can easily see into the boiler.

The problem with Sage is they are seemingly prone to failure, when this happens sourcing parts and fixing them although possible is not very easy. Rightly so this would put a fair few people off. Again, they are not cheap, especially if you think it might break in 3 years.


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## Apr1985 (Apr 18, 2020)

Joe shorrock said:


> You can get sage dual boiler for £699 atm from eco cook shop, that's a steal


 Sadly not in stock or I would have got one ☹


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I would ask what the Sage at £600 offers over a Classic, Silvia or Hobby and separate grinder?

As far as I can tell the differences are mostly downsides.

If you were to pick up one of the aforementioned and say a Mignon grinder then if you decided to change up to an HX machine you still have a decent grinder to go with plus it is a better grinder than in the BE. You also get machines that are easier to repair, have some mods available such as the ability to add an adjustable PID etc. And finally you would get a full size commercial portafilter so tampers, distribution tool etc would carry over to a new machine.

Sage have a big following for sure and they can make good coffee but I feel there are much better options.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> My pro was worth it at £450, but I wouldn't have paid £600 for it.
> It's tricky though as sage fall into the price range where there isn't a lot of other machines with their tech.
> Rancilio Silvia for instance doesn't have a PID nor the Gaggia.
> 
> ...


 Hi tom thanks for the info

the other thing is - I'm new so I'd find it hard to tell how a 2nd game had been treated/how to clean it/take it apart....hence why I think a decent & very popular BE or maybe pro would be good....I know for the more experienced person you'd recommend a second hand but as said it's not that easy for me

I meant to ask you - I think you mentioned running 2/3 shots before you get the best which is the 4th..

I live in a hard water area so I'm gona have to buy a water filter

So for every time you Make a coffee say you use 20g of water whatever that'd be in ml, you're actually using 80ml because of the warm ups....someone mentioned it on another post it can get expensive having to do this if using say bottled water (I don't have a clue how it's cost I'm just asking the question)

is this just a fact & you gotta do it so get over it?


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I would ask what the Sage at £600 offers over a Classic, Silvia or Hobby and separate grinder?
> 
> As far as I can tell the differences are mostly downsides.
> 
> ...


 Thanks for the info

the only thing is I am completely new to this, not particularly DIY minded so taking things apart/modding may not be the best route for me?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Wisey said:


> Thanks for the info
> 
> the only thing is I am completely new to this, not particularly DIY minded so taking things apart/modding may not be the best route for me?


 They were just some ideas of what you could do in the future, you certainly don't have to do so.

I will say the mods are super easy though.

David


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> They were just some ideas of what you could do in the future, you certainly don't have to do so.
> 
> I will say the mods are super easy though.
> 
> David


 Yeah I appreciate the thoughts I just don't feel I'm into tinkering around with machines

i feel I need one that'll do what I need, whether that be one machine or separate machine/grinder but I need them to perform & not have to alter them


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Apr1985 said:


> Sadly not in stock or I would have got one ☹


 Shame they go so quick 😂


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Wisey said:


> Hi tom thanks for the info
> 
> the other thing is - I'm new so I'd find it hard to tell how a 2nd game had been treated/how to clean it/take it apart....hence why I think a decent & very popular BE or maybe pro would be good....I know for the more experienced person you'd recommend a second hand but as said it's not that easy for me
> 
> ...


 You will need a filtering system, or a reverse osmosis machine like the Osmio. 
A britta filter won't cut it. 
The zero water one would though.

Yes you are going to get substandard coffee before you warm it up.

You could always wipe and clean the grouphead down and reuse the water, although this may introduce debris etc. into the system.

You can certainly get a gaggia or rancilio and mod it.

If you make espresso only then those machines might end up being better, with mods.
The rancilio is also ok at steaming. The gaggia is not.

The steam power of both Sages is far superior to both those machines.

One massive pro (of the pro) is that you can pull a shot and then switch straight into steaming, with about 5 seconds delay. Steam the milk in about 45 seconds or so for 1 cup.

It's not a dual boiler but it's pretty impressive. I actually used my gaggia the other day (with a steam wand mod) and it took so long to switch over and steam milk my poor espresso had sat there for ages!

It's all very well when you have a 1000 plus machine to say the Sages aren't great, but if you get it for £500 I don't think it's a bad machine at all.


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## Apr1985 (Apr 18, 2020)

Joe shorrock said:


> Shame they go so quick 😂


 That it is. People shouldn't still be doing panic buying 🙃


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> You will need a filtering system, or a reverse osmosis machine like the Osmio.
> A britta filter won't cut it.
> The zero water one would though.
> 
> ...


 Thanks again tom for the information hwoever you've lost me -

can you explain the water filter thing...

why won't a Brita filter be good enough

why do I need a reverse osmosis machine?!

what's the zero water one?

again tom - surely I won't be the only one but beginners aren't gona spend £600 on a machine then £300 on a filtering machine! Do people just put hard water in & hope it doesn't clog up or maybe use bottled water


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Wisey said:


> Thanks again tom for the information hwoever you've lost me -
> 
> can you explain the water filter thing...
> 
> ...


 Mostly they use bottled water. At massive cost to themselves and the environment.

No a beginner probably wouldn't. But if they live in a hard water area they should. 
Brita does very little and certainly doesn't remove enough to reduce scale in a hard water area, inside a narrow piped espresso machine.

Some people just use hard water and descale the machine often. Like monthly. But this may damage the seals etc (due to acid used) if you were to do it so frequently.

When you buy an espresso machine you need to factor in appropriate water and quality coffee, so maybe £5 a week coffee subscription or more if you drink a lot. 
Otherwise it's not worth it and you'd be better off sticking with pods or better still get a v60/aeropress.


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Wisey said:


> Thanks again tom for the information hwoever you've lost me -
> 
> can you explain the water filter thing...
> 
> ...


 So the thing with britta is it doesn't reduce hardness THAT much. There's whole threads on this topic if you have a search - it's a common problem!

I used a britta filter in my gaggia classic for a few years. Admittedly I probably didn't replace the filters as much as I should have because you don't really have a way of quantifying their lifespan unless you do a lot of tests.

I took the machine apart to clean it recently and it all looked fine inside, but when I opened up the boiler it was so corroded I decided I'd just buy a new boiler...

I now use a mix of zerowater and tap water to get to the correct hardness. The zerowater comes with a TDS reader, so thought I'd test a few options (worth noting that TDS on its own isn't a good indicator of water quality, but it's a start). From memory, my tap water here was 305, britta with an almost brand new filter was 130, tesco ashbeck was 70 and zerowater was (unsurprisingly) 0.

Essentially I just water my tap water down with 6 parts zerowater to 1 part tap water. The filters aren't cheap but should last a couple of months at my current usage. There's a chart on their site saying how many litres of water you should get from each filter depending on hardness.

£12.50 per filter is quite a whack, but £6.25 a month to avoid having to replace a grand's worth of machine every few years is worth it!


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Mostly they use bottled water. At massive cost to themselves and the environment.
> 
> No a beginner probably wouldn't. But if they live in a hard water area they should.
> Brita does very little and certainly doesn't remove enough to reduce scale in a hard water area, inside a narrow piped espresso machine.
> ...


 So what do you use with your machine?

ive read that bottled water might not be great as it removes too much stuff?


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

jaffro said:


> So the thing with britta is it doesn't reduce hardness THAT much. There's whole threads on this topic if you have a search - it's a common problem!
> 
> I used a britta filter in my gaggia classic for a few years. Admittedly I probably didn't replace the filters as much as I should have because you don't really have a way of quantifying their lifespan unless you do a lot of tests.
> 
> ...


 I watched a james Hoffman video who said the Britta did well....he didn't really mention corrosion more about taste.

he did say I think that 0 TDS isn't good & one of the brands actually could be bad for corrosion


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Wisey said:


> So what do you use with your machine?
> 
> ive read that bottled water might not be great as it removes too much stuff?


 I have an RO filter. The Osmio.
I would seriously consider including this in your budget. It will save you a lot in the long run and you won't be drinking coffee full of microplastics and contributing to the waste water bottles sent to china to be dumped in the sea.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Wisey said:


> I watched a james Hoffman video who said the Britta did well....he didn't really mention corrosion more about taste.
> 
> he did say I think that 0 TDS isn't good & one of the brands actually could be bad for corrosion


 Ignore that video, it was one of his worst and he missed the point of the zero.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Again is this not getting a bit too 'into it' too early? I want a simple but noticeable improvement & introduction, I feel like you all have your '4 step ahead' head on...I know you're all trying to help with your knowledge & it's much appreciated but, I need good entry level.

imagine taking up golf, you may just want some decent clubs that aren't rubbish but but not the best.......id recommend £450 irons, not hippo (poor brand) but not DXG (super expensive).....they'll do you for now & in a couple of years as You get better you can upgrade.....you'll use decent balls but i won't go into the details of why titleist pro v 1 are the best (£3.50 a ball), is recommend a different titleist (£1.50 a ball)


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Wisey said:


> I watched a james Hoffman video who said the Britta did well....he didn't really mention corrosion more about taste.
> 
> he did say I think that 0 TDS isn't good & one of the brands actually could be bad for corrosion


 Yeah you're right, but I believe that video was all about filter and not about espresso machines?

For filter the tolerances are a bit different from a taste perspective and it's easy to see when you need to descale a household kettle.

In a boiler that's constantly at 100 degrees or higher for extended periods of time, britta filtering isn't really enough... Or so I've found.

That was zerowater he was talking about, but the issue was more that you don't want to use just 0 TDS water, which is what he did in the video. To get the right water content I just mix zerowater with normal tap water 6:1, that way I get much softer water than either tap or britta filtered water, but it's higher than 0 TDS. It basically achieves exactly the same as the Peak water jug he used, but I mix it manually rather than using a dial on the top.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Wisey said:


> Again is this not getting a bit too 'into it' too early? I want a simple but noticeable improvement & introduction, I feel like you all have your '4 step ahead' head on...I know you're all trying to help with your knowledge & it's much appreciated but, I need good entry level.
> 
> imagine taking up golf, you may just want some decent clubs that aren't rubbish but but not the best.......id recommend £450 irons, not hippo (poor brand) but not DXG (super expensive).....they'll do you for now & in a couple of years as You get better you can upgrade.....you'll use decent balls but i won't go into the details of why titleist pro v 1 are the best (£3.50 a ball), is recommend a different titleist (£1.50 a ball)


 Ok, 
I like the golf analogy (not that I play golf) as it could help explain what I mean.

Lets say you want to play golf (Make espresso based coffee) 
You need more than just clubs right? 
You need all the bits that go with it. Most importantly you need somewhere to play.

You could be very lucky and live next to a golf course that's cheap and really great (soft water area) or you could be really unlucky and live miles away from a decent course thats reasonable, but you live right by a mega expensive one.
In this case you would have a few options, drive to the course wasting petrol (bottled water) or join the local club and pay the high price (Osmio zero). After a while you realise how awesome it is the be able to play golf just down the road, as opposed to continually driving a long distance.

Either case you HAVE to do something, because you can't play proper golf in your back garden, especially with real golf clubs, whether they are expensive or cheap.

Does this illustrate my point.

Espresso is not just the machine. It's the grinder, the water, the coffee and that's just the essentials.

None of them are cheap. Espresso is in for a penny, in for a pound. 
If you aren't willing to spend the money stick to a cheap system like a V60

Don't forget that this is NOTHING to do with making great coffee (of course it is a bit) you could probably save money by frequenting a cafe. 
It's about a hobby that you will love and invest in.


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## Apr1985 (Apr 18, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> None of them are cheap. Espresso is in for a penny, in for a pound.
> If you aren't willing to spend the money stick to a cheap system like a V60


 That's until you realise you need an electric gooseneck kettle. Brew tracking scales, brewbar, thermal carafe..........

Coffee is a rabbit hole which ever way you go 😁 Just embrace it.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Apr1985 said:


> That's until you realise you need an electric gooseneck kettle. Brew tracking scales, brewbar, thermal carafe..........
> 
> Coffee is a rabbit hole which ever way you go 😁 Just embrace it.


 Haha very true! 
Shall we say French press then? 
Thats cheap!


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## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

Having read through all of this - I mean this in the nicest possible way. Do not buy an espresso machine.

From what I can tell you would like your coffee to be a bit better but you appear not to want to jump through the hoops and follow the advice in order to get there. I get that, espresso is complex and it is more of a hobby and commitment than I think you want to give. I could be totally off here but I don't think I am.

My advice - Nespresso. Just spend your money on better pods like Colonna and feed it some Tesco Ashbeck water. Half decent coffee, no fuss.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Ok,
> I like the golf analogy (not that I play golf) as it could help explain what I mean.
> 
> Lets say you want to play golf (Make espresso based coffee)
> ...


 Hahah love it!

yeah I totally get your point

im just trying to get all the info and structure my expectations. Like you say, I don't wanna buy a &200 machine, Tesco bought beans, right that's me up & at em

them in a month come on here and ask why I can't get good coffee

i do appreciate the advice, as I say I just wana find out the full facts and see what I should be expecting


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

davril said:


> Having read through all of this - I mean this in the nicest possible way. Do not buy an espresso machine.
> 
> From what I can tell you would like your coffee to be a bit better but you appear not to want to jump through the hoops and follow the advice in order to get there. I get that, espresso is complex and it is more of a hobby and commitment than I think you want to give. I could be totally off here but I don't think I am.
> 
> My advice - Nespresso. Just spend your money on better pods like Colonna and feed it some Tesco Ashbeck water. Half decent coffee, no fuss.


 😂

no that's not it, I'm not expecting to buy it & make Amazing coffee and be able to draw a tulip on my coffee the day I buy it. I really do appreciate the advice I'm getting as I know FA about coffee to this degree

all I'm saying is like my golf analogy, I'm trying to get in at the mid point. I don't have hippo golf clubs, but then I don't have the latest model in golf clubs. Yeah the new Taylormade driver goes 15 yards further than last years but, last years is still decent for me, it's good enough.

I want good coffee compared to the usual instant coffee drinker but then I'm never (don't quote me on that) going to buy a la marzocco machine

You don't have to go in at niche grinder/la marzocco machine do you? Not all people have acacia scales, they buy cheaper which do the job - maybe not as well but they do better than the kitchen scales they have


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## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

This is only a suggestion but stay with me on this, I don't know where you live, but is it worth trying one out first and I mean going to a John Lewis store (once lockdown is lifted) because I know that John Lewis in store you can try the sage coffee machines with one of there sales guys, they can make you a fresh espresso/latte and you can see what you think before buying one. I know they will make you a fresh coffee in the Birmingham store, from grinding the beans in front of you to pulling the shot and frothing the milk so you can have a taste, you can then decide if it is worth the money and want to take the next step.


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## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

So just buy the Sage. 👍


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

davril said:


> So just buy the Sage. 👍


 I do listen to the advice but I have said so many times mainly I do not know how to mod, I'm not great at DIY so probably wouldn't feel comfortable taking a machine apart & tinkering

again - if I said to you - oh you need to buy xx golf clubs, you'd have to change the grip but it's easy to do.....maybe you'd think 'what, erm, I don't know how to change grips, I don't really want to mess with a £500 set of irons and maybe mess one up, I just want a set that will be reliable and good quality for me at the moment'

I think a lot of you need to forget your knowledge & pretend you're new to this......a lot of experienced members on here have sage machines, so why do they have these and not a seperate combo? ....as a new golfer I wouldn't tell you you need the latest £400 driver, id advise you to get a £200 one which is good quality & aimed at your skill level...then one day you aim higher


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Adam.f said:


> This is only a suggestion but stay with me on this, I don't know where you live, but is it worth trying one out first and I mean going to a John Lewis store (once lockdown is lifted) because I know that John Lewis in store you can try the sage coffee machines with one of there sales guys, they can make you a fresh espresso/latte and you can see what you think before buying one. I know they will make you a fresh coffee in the Birmingham store, from grinding the beans in front of you to pulling the shot and frothing the milk so you can have a taste, you can then decide if it is worth the money and want to take the next step.


 Really good thought..to be honest I've only really got thinking about this is the last 3 weeks or so so a test hasn't even entered my mind....hopefully the shops will be opened in the next couple of weeks & I could try one out


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## davril (Sep 17, 2012)

I do not wish to be rude but you have totally misunderstood what members are saying to you.

Nobody is suggesting you need to spend thousands and start out with prosumer gear. In fact the suggested used classic would be FAR cheaper than the Sage, even with a decent separate grinder. As mentioned previously by others you do not NEED to mod it. It is just possible.

I think your mind is already made up and was before you started the thread. I am not sure you are genuinely interested in other members advice so as I said - buy the Sage.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

davril said:


> I do not wish to be rude but you have totally misunderstood what members are saying to you.
> 
> Nobody is suggesting you need to spend thousands and start out with prosumer gear. In fact the suggested used classic would be FAR cheaper than the Sage, even with a decent separate grinder. As mentioned previously by others you do not NEED to mod it. It is just possible.
> 
> I think your mind is already made up and was before you started the thread. I am not sure you are genuinely interested in other members advice so as I said - buy the Sage.


 read what has been written - people suggesting used machine (£250), grinder (£250), water filter (£300) so £800...I've said so many times about the sage 'oooh it's a lot of money to spend for a beginner' - maybe this would insinuate £500-£600 is my price range? If a brand new gaggia/Rancilio was £300 I would buy it then I'd buy a Baratza grinder or whatever for similar price but the machine ain't, there £450+

again read what people/I have said - buying second hand - it's dodgy as I wouldn't know if it was in good working order & im not great at taking things apart to clean/fix if needbe (I have said this sooooo many times hence why I feel I need a decent Machine that will give good coffee which is ready to go)..

I want something that gets good reviews, won't be the best won't be the worst but then also has some sort of warranty if it goes wrong. I don't want a £250 second hand machine that needs repairing but I can't do it or even worse, have a faulty machine that I wouldn't have a clue how to find the fault

(I really appreciate people's advice on machines & I am researching the ones suggested but) to combat your sarcastic comments about my mind being made up - read the title of my post, it doesn't say 'what machine should I get' it says specifically 'is the BE or pro worth the money.'


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

I do believe as previously suggested then that a Nespresso machine would
be best for you.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Jason11 said:


> I do believe as previously suggested then that a Nespresso machine would
> be best for you.


 So beginners can only dip their toe in if

1) you are prepared to go for a 2nd hand trusted machine

or

2) you folk out initially for a decent machine or combo? Ie over £700 (say £450 machine and £250 grinder)


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## Jason11 (Oct 25, 2019)

I would suggest that maybe if a machine that fits your needs hasn't been suggested so far from the very helpful and knowledgable forum members it maybe doesn't exist....


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

I think the thing that people are trying to get across (repeatedly) is that espresso is a hobby, not just a drink. It's going to require time, effort, geekery and a bit of cash, otherwise there's not much point.

That said I'm getting pretty good results with a £150 machine and a £150 hand grinder, but I have had to modify the basket/portafilter. And I'm already lusting after a Mara X and a Niche


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Wisey said:


> So beginners can only dip their toe in if
> 
> 1) you are prepared to go for a 2nd hand trusted machine
> 
> ...


 I have to admit I haven't read every single response here so apologies if I miss something!

I don't know where all the Sage hate has come from really. There used to be a fair few relatively experienced forum members who used Sage machines, or had one before upgrading, and the feedback seemed good enough.

I think the thing is, you'll always get better value for money if you buy used because someone else has taken the hit for depreciation. You'll get warranty with the Sage, but some have questioned whether they're reliable enough in the long term (I'm not sure if this is true or not) and they're harder to get parts for and get serviced. Also, they're hard to service yourself, but since that's not something you're interested in it doesn't matter.

Second thought. The buit in grinder in the sage baristas isn't the best, but it will do the job. It will grind fine enough for espresso, but it's probably the first thing you'd want to upgrade. Since it's built in then it's more annoying to upgrade it because you'd essentially have two grinders out on the kitchen worktop, or you have to sell it on and buy a new machine and grinder at the same time.

So the other option to ponder over is a new machine (more like a bambino or duo temp pro) and a separate grinder. That way if you wanted to you could upgrade either machine or grinder separately if you ever wanted to. Grinders are also way less complicated than espresso machines, so are a much safer bet second hand. You could always shove a wanted add up on here and see if you can get something like a eureka mignon within your price bracket? Or you could just go new if you prefer.

People on here have made good coffee out of the Sage machines, you just know how to use them. As long as you treat it well and feed it good water I can't see why it wouldn't last a while. It's potentially not the most reliable and isn't the absolute best value for money if you're starting out and want to take espresso on as a hobby, but it's a pretty machine and will look nice in the kitchen (better than an old gaggia refurb to some).

There you go, that's my honest opinion!

For info, I'm a tinkerer, so I started off with a cheap Gaggia Classic and did all the mods to it before upgrading to a HX machine. It's a really fun route, but it's a but of time and effort and you need to get into it a bit!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Atm used gear isnt as cheap,

Im new to coffee (start of lock down)

I was looking at the sage duo temp pro

I read the forum, and fell in love with the gaggia holy grail you must start with the gaggia tribe.

I bought the gaggia.

Then its good grinder time.

I couldn't shell out 4-500 on a grinder. I was going to pull the trigger in a mignon at about 350. But decided on a hand grinder £190 1zpresso pro which had amazing reviews.

So my trust gaggia turns up, ive watched a million videos, had some great advice, ive temp surfed and what not.

The result 500g worth of beans down the drain. Not one nice shot, not 1:2, 1:3,1:4 hell my cookworks made more drinkable coffee.

I didn't mention the £40 distribution tool or the £30 tamper that went with it.

The end result, sold the gaggia.

Bought the sage duo temp pro on sale at john lewis for £249 del. 2yr warrenty

First shot 100times better than the gaggia

So far been really happy with the sage

This prob says more about me and my skills, but i couldn't get to grips with the gaggia,

For some reason people on here hate sage, is it because is mass produced and not exclusive enough, dunno the reason.

Id bet most slagging it never used one......


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

If you want to save money, probably wait for the sales?

I think I (and others) already said why it might be a better idea to go for separate machine/grinder. The overall cost seems to be about the same. You can check camelcamelcamel, but around Black Friday last year you could have had a Sage Bambino/DTP and a Sage Grinder Pro for around £350-400. Or a BE for around the same amount. Right now as you've said, you're spending £550-600 for both setups.

You don't 'need' the water filter per se. I only just got mine after several months. But the more experienced guys here suggest that if you're using tap water (including Brita filtered) in a hard water area then you are just creating problems for yourself down the line. So you can use tap water and risk breaking your machine (though if you follow the recommended descaling routine and are still in warranty presumably the manufacturer would have to cover it), or you use bottled which has its own costs, which in one year are broadly equivalent to just buying an Osmio apparently.

My advice...wait for the sales, buy a BE or a separate machine/grinder, use bottled to start with, see how you like it. If you need a machine now unfortunately, it's not a great time to buy.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

I started with a second hand sage dtp and a sage smart grinder Pro. At the time got them both for about & 550 which was good at the time.

They did me well and I had no issues. I then upgraded but I only had to do 1 item at a time.

The BE has pros and cons. Same as anything. My issue was the integration of the grinder and that if I wanted a new machine or grinder I had to sell the whole thing and start from scratch.

Having separates is easier. Not necessarily cleaner. But allows a simpler change or upgrade path should you choose.

The sage looks cleaner in the new age of kitchens than something like a gaggia in my opinion. But that's all it is. My opinion.

Get what you think will work best for you. Everything can make decent coffee if you feed it decent beans and water and your prep is good. Some just may make better or worse coffee. Doesn't mean it won't suit your requirements.

Sent from my LYA-L09 using Tapatalk


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Ive been using bottled water,

I drink bottled water at work anyway,

And for the brews i make i buy 6l of water a week which works out at £3 per week. And being volvic there fully recyclable


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

grumble said:


> I think the thing that people are trying to get across (repeatedly) is that espresso is a hobby, not just a drink. It's going to require time, effort, geekery and a bit of cash, otherwise there's not much point.
> 
> That said I'm getting pretty good results with a £150 machine and a £150 hand grinder, but I have had to modify the basket/portafilter. And I'm already lusting after a Mara X and a Niche


 And I totally get that & am ready for that (the grinding/adjusting etc of the beans to get the taste...what I'm not ready for is the adjusting/nodding/technical part of fiddling with the machine parts)


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Waters a different issuse for me, people go on about bottle being expensive/wasteful and to buy things like the osmi zero

That machines £400

Its an ro membrane system, even if its 1:1 for every litre of water you make your throwing 1litre down the drain, add to that filter blocks will need changing prob every 6months. For me ill stick to bottles. When you add the cost of machine, water meter and carbon blocks/membranes etc into the mix imo price will be the same and your not plumbing something in.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

jaffro said:


> I have to admit I haven't read every single response here so apologies if I miss something!
> 
> I don't know where all the Sage hate has come from really. There used to be a fair few relatively experienced forum members who used Sage machines, or had one before upgrading, and the feedback seemed good enough.
> 
> ...


 Jaffro - thank you you kinda hit all the points there.

maybe in a few years time when I'm more experienced/my sage breaks then I may want to tinker with a machine/know what a refurbished one needs...but at the moment I need a 'ready to go' one...

so maybe the bambino/duo temp pro, I'll look thank you.... so I assume machines like this are good just as a maker, like we've said not a la marzocco but a decent startup....


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Atm used gear isnt as cheap,
> 
> Im new to coffee (start of lock down)
> 
> ...


 Thanks for then Info pal


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

facboy said:


> If you want to save money, probably wait for the sales?
> 
> I think I (and others) already said why it might be a better idea to go for separate machine/grinder. The overall cost seems to be about the same. You can check camelcamelcamel, but around Black Friday last year you could have had a Sage Bambino/DTP and a Sage Grinder Pro for around £350-400. Or a BE for around the same amount. Right now as you've said, you're spending £550-600 for both setups.
> 
> ...


 Thank you for the info.....yeah I have considered waiting but it's gona be a 7 month wait until Xmas....

I think a new machine like gaggia or similar plus great grinder would be nearer £700 so a bit over budget......so yeah bambino/DTP & great grinder could be the alternative


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Planter said:


> I started with a second hand sage dtp and a sage smart grinder Pro. At the time got them both for about & 550 which was good at the time.
> 
> They did me well and I had no issues. I then upgraded but I only had to do 1 item at a time.
> 
> ...


 Thanks mayeb


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Wisey said:


> Jaffro - thank you you kinda hit all the points there.
> 
> maybe in a few years time when I'm more experienced/my sage breaks then I may want to tinker with a machine/know what a refurbished one needs...but at the moment I need a 'ready to go' one...
> 
> so maybe the bambino/duo temp pro, I'll look thank you.... so I assume machines like this are good just as a maker, like we've said not a la marzocco but a decent startup....


 Great, tried to cover off everything!

For info, I don't have hands on experience with the bambino at all. A friend had a duo temp pro before and really liked it and I know a few people on here had them. Worth having a search!

Think the bambino is a lot newer, so possibly not as much info around. Worth doing some research!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Dtp and bambino have different heating setups. Iirc


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Cuprajake said:


> Waters a different issuse for me, people go on about bottle being expensive/wasteful and to buy things like the osmi zero
> 
> That machines £400
> 
> Its an ro membrane system, even if its 1:1 for every litre of water you make your throwing 1litre down the drain, add to that filter blocks will need changing prob every 6months. For me ill stick to bottles. When you add the cost of machine, water meter and carbon blocks/membranes etc into the mix imo price will be the same and your not plumbing something in.


 there's more info in the various threads, and in @DaveCUK's review, but it's 5:4 (1 litre wasted per 4 litres), and it's not plumbed in.

i don't like bottled myself for various reasons, but at £3 p/w week, yeah, it'd take me a bit over 2 years to break even with the group buy price, and that's assuming i only replace the filters once. but after 2 years i'll be ahead!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Have you got a link to it as thats a very high rate


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## Apr1985 (Apr 18, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Waters a different issuse for me, people go on about bottle being expensive/wasteful and to buy things like the osmi zero
> 
> That machines £400
> 
> Its an ro membrane system, even if its 1:1 for every litre of water you make your throwing 1litre down the drain, add to that filter blocks will need changing prob every 6months. For me ill stick to bottles. When you add the cost of machine, water meter and carbon blocks/membranes etc into the mix imo price will be the same and your not plumbing something in.


 I guess there are multiple points with water, taste, money, water waste and plastic consumption. You cant have all of them so just gotta pick which are most important to you personally 

I don't think there is a right or wrong choice at all and what one person feels comfortable with other wont so long as everyone does a mix and not everyone goes bottled, or not everyone goes RO then things are fine.

I wonder how much it would cost to treat water at a national level 🤔


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah i think once we start getting into that side of coffee, waste, costs ethics it will go off topic quick haha


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Cuprajake said:


> Have you got a link to it as thats a very high rate


 https://www.osmiowater.co.uk/zip-portable-reverse-osmosis-system.html

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/01/06/osmio-zero/


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah i just found it haha


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## Apr1985 (Apr 18, 2020)

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah i think once we start getting into that side of coffee, waste, costs ethics it will go off topic quick haha


 Yep fair cop!!

To bring it back on topic and machine/grinder specifically.

I have been reading through this thread and a couple of other that have been on a similar theme.

So first let us just stat that we are in lockdown coffee machines are in-demand so in general there are no good deals. So anyone who has posted I got my machine for this much and its great, are just going to have to be disregarded if you want it before normality resumes, the price you see if the price you have to weigh up no matter what others bought it for.

Reading back it looks like you have a budget of £600 all in. This really leaves you with Sage, Gaggia and Rancilio. 
As you have said you don't really want to tinker and are looking for an easy to use machine which gets some decent results, that pretty much leaves Sage.

Therefore you have 4 choice, Bambino (B), Duo Temp (DT), Barista Express (BE), or the Barista Pro (BP).

Of course all machines have their place and their pros and cons (otherwise they would need to be sold). So it is then weighing up what is important to you personally (as with water you can't have everything). So lets have a run through some features (I don't know the bambino or duo temp well so I may miss some)....



Super fast heatup and quick switch between brew and steam - B, BP


Passive heatup, i.e. leave it on for a while and it warms up the machine for you - DT, BE


Hands Free Milk Steaming (i.e. it makes foamed milk without you touching it) - B


Built in Grinder - BE, BP


Better built in Grinder - BP


Separate purchase grinder (better quality and easier to upgrade) - B, DT


Small Footprint - B, DT


Volumetric Shots (Stops the shot for you at a certain water volume) - B, BE, BP


Changeable temperature shots - BP


3 way solenoid for cleaner cleanup - BP


Preinfusion - DT, BE, BP


I am sure there are plenty of other features to go through as well but these seemed the most important I could find.

So for now I wouldn't worry about water, what coffee you put in it etc they can all come after you have chosen the machine and grinder.

Really the choice is Do you want a built in Grinder or not? Once that decision is made you then choose between the two machine in that bracket.

I have the barista pro, but given my time again I would seriously consider buying the duo temp and in budget grinder (mignon maybe), mainly because I have just order a Niche grinder which renders the BP grinder almost redundant (I am actually going to use it to grind coffee for work at the start of the week for my aeropress) and now I have large espresso machine and a grinder on my worktop.

Unfortunately there is no clear winner in this as each machine has its own strengths so you just have to choose which features are most important.

P.S I am sure if there are any features I have missed or made mistakes others will add.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

afaik Bambino Plus can do pre-infusion...I mean they all do pre-infusion, presumably you mean controlling the pre-infusion time. You can choose your pre-infusion time in the manual mode.

about the volumetric shots...i'm not 100% convinced it's 'true' volumetric on the BP. in any case when you're a novice like me it is not going to be very useful because your distribution/tamp is going to be inconsistent enough that the volumetric output in the cup is going to be all over the place, even if the machine is outputting the exact same volume each time.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Apr1985 said:


> I guess there are multiple points with water, taste, money, water waste and plastic consumption. You cant have all of them so just gotta pick which are most important to you personally
> 
> I don't think there is a right or wrong choice at all and what one person feels comfortable with other wont so long as everyone does a mix and not everyone goes bottled, or not everyone goes RO then things are fine.
> 
> I wonder how much it would cost to treat water at a national level 🤔


 What does RO mean?

I have hard water but it tastes nice so my only reason for not using tap water would be due to the limescale etc it'd leave & damage to the machine


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## Apr1985 (Apr 18, 2020)

Wisey said:


> What does RO mean?
> 
> I have hard water but it tastes nice so my only reason for not using tap water would be due to the limescale etc it'd leave & damage to the machine


 Reverse Osmosis. Basically take everything out of the water so it can be remineralised. 
Need a special machine like the osmio zero so is an expensive option. But gives the best water


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Just go bottled for now


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Cuprajake said:


> Just go bottled for now


 I do 5 litres ashbeck for £1.10 max 2 a week


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## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

With the amount of replies with suggestion and help, you have your work cut out deciding what to do now!


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Apr1985 said:


> Yep fair cop!!
> 
> To bring it back on topic and machine/grinder specifically.
> 
> ...


 Mate thanks so much for that, really helpful. Ok, so we're now considering bambino/duo temp & grinder will be a decent one - Baratza/mignon. Out of stock but if I can get a bambino/DT for £330 (I have vouchers I can use at currys so that would leave more than enough £ for a decent grinder)

so machine, what's the differences between bambino & DT? Bambino looks nicer, 2 points you stated which I thought would be Important

- Volumetric Shots (Stops the shot for you at a certain water volume) - B, BE, BP

- Changeable temperature shots - BP

point 1 I guess would be invaluable as how wild you stop it when it gets to the 1:2 ratio? So the DT doesn't do that?


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Apr1985 said:


> Reverse Osmosis. Basically take everything out of the water so it can be remineralised.
> Need a special machine like the osmio zero so is an expensive option. But gives the best water


 Ok so what do coffee chains/shops use???? I can't see them doing this, or think they have some filter plumbed in?


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Adam.f said:


> With the amount of replies with suggestion and help, you have your work cut out deciding what to do now!


 Yeah! Apr made some really good points...

im open to them, so for same price which is the best bambino or DT?

does anyone know do these do good milk? Watched a video earlier & it's looks like BE & pro do


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Have a look here he reviews the bambio

This is the milk steaming review

Id say all the sage are capable of steaming milk once you learn how.

As for cafes they have built in water filtration. Usually ro setups.


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## Apr1985 (Apr 18, 2020)

No duo temp doesn't have volumetric, you turn the machine on and off. The idea being you have a set of scales under your cup and turn it off when it hits your ratio. 
Volumetric sends the same amount of water through each time, so as long as you are consistent with dose and tamp in theory you should get the same output each time.

as for milk. Duo temp has the same wand as the express I think. The bambino has an auto frother which is worth looking up videos on YouTube as it will make or break your decision to buy the machine or not.

Normal cafes will just have an inline filter like a commercial brita attached to their water lines. Specialty cafes will have a plumbed in RO with re miniralisation built in.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

> 19 minutes ago, Cuprajake said:


 Thanks for the video


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Apr1985 said:


> No duo temp doesn't have volumetric, you turn the machine on and off. The idea being you have a set of scales under your cup and turn it off when it hits your ratio.
> Volumetric sends the same amount of water through each time, so as long as you are consistent with dose and tamp in theory you should get the same output each time.
> 
> as for milk. Duo temp has the same wand as the express I think. The bambino has an auto frother which is worth looking up videos on YouTube as it will make or break your decision to buy the machine or not.
> ...


 Sorry so to confirm -

duo temp - manually turn water off when your exfil gets to say 36g

bambino - always sends through say 18g of water, mixed with 18g of coffee = 36g exfil...

so once tamp and dose is consistent , you're gona get the same exfil out of both & in similar time, only difference is bambino will remember how much water you need to use but dup temp I have to manually flick the switch to turn the water off when exfil gets to 36g on the scales?


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## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

This has just come up on here!! Might be perfect for you and £200!!! Big saving on what you was going to spend, Add a sage grinder and looking at about £350 or add a Mignon grinder looking at about £500 all in. Even get a Mignon Silenzio grinder just tips you over the £500 mark and you have a great grinder.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51953-sage-duo-temp-pro-with-box-and-all-accessories-plus-a-few-additions/?do=embed


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Adam.f said:


> This has just come up on here!! Might be perfect for you and £200!!! Big saving on what you was going to spend, add a Mignon grinder looking at about £450 all in.
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51953-sage-duo-temp-pro-with-box-and-all-accessories-plus-a-few-additions/?do=embed


 Thanks adam

ive asked if he has original receipt/what water he's been using/cleaning regulatory ..anything else I need to know? 
goes again my 2nd hand thoughts but as it wouldn't need modding I suppose doesn't matter as much.....suppose I just wouldn't know how well it's been maintained


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## Joe shorrock (Nov 18, 2019)

Wisey said:


> Thanks adam
> 
> ive asked if he has original receipt/what water he's been using/cleaning regulatory ..anything else I need to know?
> goes again my 2nd hand thoughts but as it wouldn't need modding I suppose doesn't matter as much.....suppose I just wouldn't know how well it's been maintained


 Tbh mate just buy the DTP, looks in decent nick plus comes with funnel, distribution tool, motta tamper and jug, with all that added on, won't find better deal on here the kit that he's offered with it would cost around £70-80, you would just need a grinder


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## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

Joe shorrock said:


> Tbh mate just buy the DTP, looks in decent nick plus comes with funnel, distribution tool, motta tamper and jug, with all that added on, won't find better deal on here the kit that he's offered with it would cost around £70-80, you would just need a grinder


 Agree with Joe, it looks in good nic, answered the questions you was after, cleaned weekly, filtered water, back flushed, shower screen all cleaned. Looks just the normal wear and tear as anyone would get. Most/all the guys and gals on here look after there machines so best place to buy second hand machine from rather than eBay.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Joe shorrock said:


> Tbh mate just buy the DTP, looks in decent nick plus comes with funnel, distribution tool, motta tamper and jug, with all that added on, won't find better deal on here the kit that he's offered with it would cost around £70-80, you would just need a grinder


 Thanks for the advice mate


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I would say that is a pretty good deal to be fair.

No secret I am very pro Gaggia for entry level but this and a separate grinder is a much better option than the BE in my opinion.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Adam.f said:


> Agree with Joe, it looks in good nic, answered the questions you was after, cleaned weekly, filtered water, back flushed, shower screen all cleaned. Looks just the normal wear and tear as anyone would get. Most/all the guys and gals on here look after there machines so best place to buy second hand machine from rather than eBay.


 Thanks a lot....is there a sale section on this website or where do people post items?

im gutted as when I first came on here I found a thread of people posting photos of their setup, now I can't find it!


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## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

Take a look at some of the grinders on black cat coffee they normally do deals for the guy/gals on here. They have a Mignon Silenzio that and the DTP is £500 and you have a good grinder and machine


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## Adam.f (Apr 9, 2020)

Wisey said:


> Thanks a lot....is there a sale section on this website or where do people post items?
> 
> im gutted as when I first came on here I found a thread of people posting photos of their setup, now I can't find it!


 https://coffeeforums.co.uk/forum/21-show-off-your-setup/


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Adam.f said:


> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/forum/21-show-off-your-setup/


 👍🏻


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I would say that is a pretty good deal to be fair.
> 
> No secret I am very pro Gaggia for entry level but this and a separate grinder is a much better option than the BE in my opinion.


 Thanks BCC...as previously stated getting a new Gaggia wouldn't leave much for a good grinder on.m my budget.

Due to my lack of experience in this & lack of ability to tinker with things, im a little reluctant to buy a 2nd hand machine however as it wouldn't need modding like a gaggia would this eases my mind a bit..plus I'd hope people On here look after each other & don't sell rubbish!


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Wisey said:


> Sorry so to confirm -
> 
> duo temp - manually turn water off when your exfil gets to say 36g
> 
> ...


 re bambino nooo. it would need to send through 60+g of water to make 36g of expresso, there's a lot retained in the puck. the volumetric, when you're starting out, forget about it. you will want to control it manually with scales (i do). so it's not really different to the DTP in that respect.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Wisey said:


> Thanks BCC...as previously stated getting a new Gaggia wouldn't leave much for a good grinder on.m my budget.
> 
> Due to my lack of experience in this & lack of ability to tinker with things, im a little reluctant to buy a 2nd hand machine however as it wouldn't need modding like a gaggia would this eases my mind a bit..plus I'd hope people On here look after each other & don't sell rubbish!


 Yes I think generally you wont go far wrong buying from a member.

I appreciate you have made your mind up and I think that looks like a very good deal, so this is for the benefit of others that may stumble over this thread -

There is no actual need to modify a Classic, you just have the option to should you want greater flexibility i.e brewing temperature control.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Yes I think generally you wont go far wrong buying from a member.
> 
> I appreciate you have made your mind up and I think that looks like a very good deal, so this is for the benefit of others that may stumble over this thread -
> 
> There is no actual need to modify a Classic, you just have the option to should you want greater flexibility i.e brewing temperature control.


 Is this adding a PID?? What does a PID do?


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

facboy said:


> re bambino nooo. it would need to send through 60+g of water to make 36g of expresso, there's a lot retained in the puck. the volumetric, when you're starting out, forget about it. you will want to control it manually with scales (i do). so it's not really different to the DTP in that respect.


 Thanks for the info....I was just using the figures as an example, not as an actual realistic figure as I wouldn't have a clue what that was ......I was just getting the logistics sorted in my brain! .....basically just saying that the DTP you manually put through however much water you want everytime however...on the bambino iou mist do the same to begin with but once you know how much you need, you can programme it to automatically send that through with the push of a button?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Wisey said:


> Is this adding a PID?? What does a PID do?


 An external mounted PID which is what we are talking about in the case of the Classic mod gives you much more stable boiler temperature and the ability to adjust it as you wish. Some coffees will work better with either higher or lower brew temperatures.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Wisey said:


> Thanks for the info....I was just using the figures as an example, not as an actual realistic figure as I wouldn't have a clue what that was ......I was just getting the logistics sorted in my brain! .....basically just saying that the DTP you manually put through however much water you want everytime however...on the bambino iou mist do the same to begin with but once you know how much you need, you can programme it to automatically send that through with the push of a button?


 yeah...in theory. i haven't found it to be that consistent with my distribution/tamping skills. plus when u switch beans or adjust grind u have to reprogram it again. it's easier to just do it manually.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Adam.f said:


> This has just come up on here!! Might be perfect for you and £200!!! Big saving on what you was going to spend, Add a sage grinder and looking at about £350 or add a Mignon grinder looking at about £500 all in. Even get a Mignon Silenzio grinder just tips you over the £500 mark and you have a great grinder.
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51953-sage-duo-temp-pro-with-box-and-all-accessories-plus-a-few-additions/?do=embed


 Hi mate...

I don't really understand the different cleaning stages that need doing, all this back flush etc...what are the different stages & how often do they need doing?

I assume most machines tell you when they need doing but this one you'll just do when you decide to? 
also the water temperature, it'll just come as it is, if you want it hotter you'll have to add a bit of hot water (which will then affect your ratio)...


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

i wouldn't worry about it. most machines are not going to tell you and are probably wrong anyway. just do it 'regularly'. usually it's just backflush and descaling. probably don't need descale if your'e using bottled or RO water.

also not sure why you'd want it hotter, ppl aren't drinking 70+ deg water are they?

you're gonna miss that deal if you keep blathering .


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