# Barista Express - problem with single shots



## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

Hi,

I'm having problems, specifically with the single shot basket on my Sage Barista Express. I'm hoping someone here can offer some insight, because I've drawn a blank.

Let me start by saying: -


I know the BE isn't the best of machines, but it's what I have. I'm just trying to get the best out of it.

I can get a really nice, consistent shot from the double basket, with various different beans.

I'm using the standard (non-pressurised baskets)

I've tried various beans, all freshly roasted, from Rave and Pact.

I weigh my beans with an accurate scale.

I've had the machine a couple of years. It took me a week to get the double shot right, and 2-3 shots to dial in a new bean. I started pulling singles 6 months ago, and I still can't get them consistent.


So, to the problem. When I pull a double shot (usually around 20g beans and grind setting of 6-8, depending on bean), the pour starts either right at the end of the low pressure infusion, or just after the high pressure kicks in. It's a smooth pour, good crema, timings are about right, nice tasting shot, consistent.

When I pull a single shot (usually 10g beans, grind setting 6-8 depending on bean): -


The pour starts early in the low pressure infusion cycle.

It seems to start smooth then, when the high pressure kicks in, it starts to splutter - sometimes seeming to stall briefly.

The pour is messy and irregular, and the crema is not as good.

The taste is variable. Occasionally, with some beans, I even prefer the taste to that of the double shot. But either way, it's a noticeably different taste.


What I've tried: -


If I increase the weight of the beans, the machine stalls and pulses

If I decrease the grind size (with same weight), it's the same (shot starts early, then either stalls or splutters)

If I decrease the weight of beans, the shot just pours way too quickly.

If I decrease the weight and decrease the grind, I end up with a soggy mess of a puck, and the pour isnt much better.


It sounds like it might be channelling, but I can't see any really obvious signs in the puck, and I just can't seem to fix it. It's doing my head in. Can anyone offer any ideas?


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

The single shot is notoriously difficult to get right at the best of times.

Even on pro machines. Most people ditch the single shot baskets

Have you tried doing a double basket pour with a dual spout pf into 2 espresso cups?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Use a double basket, if you find fine enough , perhaps get a 15g ish dose in one to make 30g of coffee ?

As above singles are not the easiets baskets to use.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The Sage single basket is easy to use (no harder than V60, or French press), but the coffee will likely be on the weaker side & crema will be less than a double due to puck depth & basket design. You can get pretty, or tasty...pretty & tasty will be harder. If they taste good but you don't like the look of the pour...stop looking at the pour (just the weight) & enjoy your tasty drink 

I'd stick to 10.0g, adjust grind. Weigh the ground dose in the PF, not just beans into grinder.

You don't say what weight of output you are shooting for, darker roasts might be OK at 35g out, lighter might need 50-60g out. Your drink is unlikely to be half the weight of a double.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I put kgs of beans through the single on a BE. I'd suggest you do the following. I'm assuming you want as strong as possible.

Forget your 10g and set the dose with the razor tool. Use it all of the time while your adjusting the grinder. I always did as sage suggest - start with a grinder setting of 8. One thing you should do especially with the single is waste a few grams of grinds each time you alter the setting. Not much is retained but it can make tuning more difficult - get a shot right and then wonder why the next is different even more confusing if being used in auto as the machine will try and control the output.

It sounds like you may already be disregarding Sage's manual's comments on what the pressure gauge should do. Aim to get the needle right to the end of the espresso range shown in blue. If too strong back off from that. You now have a weight to use.

If you want you can then go a bit further. Increase the dose by 0.2g steps - hopefully at some point the puck will stick to the shower screen, another 0.2g should stop that. Going further wont help with strength. Keep an eye on the top of the used puck while you are doing this in case it does't stick - too much coffee leaves a pretty clear indication of the shower screen fixing screw. Ideally some beans may leave slight traces of the hole in it. Doesn't work out on all beans. There isn't any harm in using too much really other than being able to fit the portafilter.

While doing this the pressure gauge reading will be increasing. At some point the over pressure valve opens. I found that it wasn't a good idea to have that opening too much. Too much is the reading it gets to when back flushing with a tablet - the tablet blocks the hole in the disk for a while. If it goes that high the machine is too close to blocking. This just means going into the hatched area over the espresso range needs care and might not work out with some beans. I found that it did but that the basket was too small for a lot of beans given the 10oz long blacks I drink. Also found that brewed this way all beans I tried were too strong in the double even with just 16g in it. Sages readings make sense in that but may still need higher or lower pressures than they suggest.

When your tuning you should be able to use the double shot button. look at time and output and press again to stop.







Actually I found that the default setting of the double gave me what I wanted using the single basket and the bean I mostly use. Probably a fluke. Ratios I used on the BE tended to be somewhat higher than I use on the DB. When I joined this forum there was a lot if talk about ratios of 2, Xg in and 2x out. I just used taste when I bought the BE, no scales or timer. From memory I was often getting a ratio of 2 at 30sec but the shot went on longer. You might find yourself needing to work a lot higher for a decent drink even 4 or a bit over. Sage's numbers suggest 3.3.

Problems, any basket really. Air trapped in the grinds is NVG with bells on. Clumping grinds can leaves stacks of that and cause problems all of their own. I found the BE grinder very good at producing nice fluffy grinds. SGP same with some. Depends on how firm the clumps are and tamping pressure. Heavier helps. Stirring grinds and firm clumps didn't help me. Just made them worse - mostly relating to other grinders with the hopper on. I always used the BE grinder via it's hopper and weighed in on an SGP. Some beans will block that one after a few shots used this way. Lots don't though. The BE grinder is probably better.

When you reduce the weight of grinds and the pucks starts getting wet time to increase the dose. It sound to me that you are using the double with too much in it really but as mentioned if it works no problem. It also sounds like you are using high brew pressures. Ok again but too high means more going out of the OPV and little through the coffee. You can weigh what's going into the drip tray if you like. Just empty before a shot, pull one and tip it into something to weigh. From memory the 3 way action always puts 60g in. I can recollect measuring 220g into the drip tray for a 9g of a light bean in and a 40g or so shot from the single. Sorry can't remember if that was ok or a limit.

I suspect too high a brew pressure is your problem.

It might also be worth you visiting your double again via use of the razor tool. The dose that comes from that can still be changed to adjust tuning but grinds do need to expand to get full benefit from the beans.








Funny thing about all Sage machines. I don't think any of them are intended to be used with the OPV opening even the DB which also has a blue sector on it's pressure gauge.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Your tuning a shot by looking at the pressure gauge? not by weight out or taste ?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Your tuning a shot by looking at the pressure gauge? not by weight out or taste ?


Bit of a something or the other way of looking at it.

The pressure gauge is being used to keep any tuning within the bounds the machine can be expected to work within. I also mentioned - assume op wants max strength. I'm also sure I also mentioned weight some where. Taste - isn't that the whole idea of tuning? No point in mentioning it as it can be obtained via some mix of ratio and time on some dose of grinds.

John


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

Thanks for the responses so far guys. Just to clarify a few things...

- In the single basket, I'm using 10g of beans and usually getting 25-27g espresso out.

- The pressure gauge is about right at this dosage/grind. It hovers towards the end of the "espresso range"

- Once tamped, the 10g dose is about the level of the razor tool, perhaps a little lower. But I wouldnt want to add even more beans, as 10g seems a lot already, and it usually leaves a fairly clear mark of the screen screw slots on the puck.

- Here's a video of a typical shot
​


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

Jason1wood said:


> The single shot is notoriously difficult to get right at the best of times.
> 
> Even on pro machines. Most people ditch the single shot baskets
> 
> Have you tried doing a double basket pour with a dual spout pf into 2 espresso cups?


Yes, when I'm making one for me and one for my wife, that's exactly what I do, and it works well. Just wish I could get some consistency when just wanting a quick shot for myself!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

smb1973 said:


> Yes, when I'm making one for me and one for my wife, that's exactly what I do, and it works well. Just wish I could get some consistency when just wanting a quick shot for myself!


Consistency is easy, you just do the same thing every time.

27g sounds like it's a bit short for good extraction.

You seem to have liquid in the cup a few seconds after hitting the brew button, perhaps you are too coarse? I'm surprised you see anything until the 10s preinfusion is done.

Don't grind into the PF, put the grinds into a dry milk jug/small pot, give them a shake & transfer to the PF, a downward tap & then a couple to the side with the heel of the hand to level, then tamp flat.


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

MWJB said:


> Consistency is easy, you just do the same thing every time.
> 
> 27g sounds like it's a bit short for good extraction.
> 
> ...


OK, maybe "consistency" was the wrong word. I suppose my shots are fairly consistent, as per the video.

You say maybe I'm grinding too coarse. That's what I initially thought, but if I grind finer, I still get the flow starting after a couple of seconds, but then it stalls completely when the high pressure starts. This is my problem.... the first few seconds always seem to indicate I need to dose higher, or grind finer, but If I do then the machine stalls later in the shot.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

If I am honest my opinion is that although you could probably play around & get ok shots from the single basket I would just avoid it all together & use the double.

I don't think you can get an even extraction out of the single basket due to the shape... just think about the shape of the basket & the way water has to flow through...

The truth is that the vast majority of people are pulling double shots


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

I would also say your machine is not acting normally...

Please do another shot but this time hold the shit button down until the coffee starts coming out then release & press again once the yield has all come through...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

HowardSmith said:


> If I am honest my opinion is that although you could probably play around & get ok shots from the single basket I would just avoid it all together & use the double.
> 
> I don't think you can get an even extraction out of the single basket due to the shape... just think about the shape of the basket & the way water has to flow through...
> 
> The truth is that the vast majority of people are pulling double shots


 @smb1973 might prefer shots from the double (more mouthfeel, stronger, more crema) when both are pulled well, but the Sage single isn't hard to use and produces extractions even enough to be tasty. I pull way more singles than doubles. Neither is harder than the other.


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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

MWJB said:


> @smb1973 might prefer shots from the double (more mouthfeel, stronger, more crema) when both are pulled well, but the Sage single isn't hard to use and produces extractions even enough to be tasty. I pull way more singles than doubles. Neither is harder than the other.


If you pull singles you are for sure much better at answering questions than me as I pull none now.

But it look at the way that machine is running, not normal, pressure kicks in then it drops down to pre-infusion & then back up to full pressure... strange, not the same as my BE was anyway.

hence me wanting to see a manual shot


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

MWJB said:


> @smb1973 might prefer shots from the double (more mouthfeel, stronger, more crema) when both are pulled well, but the Sage single isn't hard to use and produces extractions even enough to be tasty. I pull way more singles than doubles. Neither is harder than the other.


Ok, so maybe I can start with a more "objective" question. What can I do to stop the short starting early (in the first few seconds of the pre-infusion), without the machine stalling / pulsing later on?

That's the key problem for me. I don't think the shot should be starting in the first couple of seconds of the preinfusion, but every time I get close to stopping that, by adding more beans, or grinding finer, I end up with it being over pressure and pulsing or stalling completely in main part of the shot.


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

HowardSmith said:


> If you pull singles you are for sure much better at answering questions than me as I pull none now.
> 
> But it look at the way that machine is running, not normal, pressure kicks in then it drops down to pre-infusion & then back up to full pressure... strange, not the same as my BE was anyway.
> 
> hence me wanting to see a manual shot


Howard - it only does this with the single. If I use the double basket, I can manage a "near perfect" shot. No flow at all during a steady pre-infusion, then a nice smooth flow at a constant pressure for the rest of the shot.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

smb1973 said:


> Ok, so maybe I can start with a more "objective" question. What can I do to stop the short starting early (in the first few seconds of the pre-infusion), without the machine stalling / pulsing later on?
> 
> That's the key problem for me. I don't think the shot should be starting in the first couple of seconds of the preinfusion, but every time I get close to stopping that, by adding more beans, or grinding finer, I end up with it being over pressure and pulsing or stalling completely in main part of the shot.


So with 10.0g in the PF and grinding 1 notch finer, the shot stalls and after, say 45s, you still have nothing in the cup?

The pressure guage is distracting you, tape it over.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Bit of a something or the other way of looking at it.
> 
> The pressure gauge is being used to keep any tuning within the bounds the machine can be expected to work within. I also mentioned - assume op wants max strength. I'm also sure I also mentioned weight some where. Taste - isn't that the whole idea of tuning? No point in mentioning it as it can be obtained via some mix of ratio and time on some dose of grinds.
> 
> John


This makes no sense at all.

Strength is relation of coffee used to water used , not a pressure gauge.

yes the aim is to make a coffee that tastes good, but directing someone to use the pressure gauge to do this is not helping IMHO.


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

MWJB said:


> So with 10.0g in the PF and grinding 1 notch finer, the shot stalls and after, say 45s, you still have nothing in the cup?
> 
> The pressure guage is distracting you, tape it over.


No, it won't stall with just 1 notch finer, but neither does it fix the problems. I can't find a way to stop the early pour during the preinfusion without wrecking the main pour.

Here's another video as an example.






This is still 10g but ground 3 notches finer. Even ground 3 notches finer the shot still starts during the preinfusion, but the machine is now pulsing during the main part of the shot, you can hear the over-pressure valve kicking in, and the pour is as messy as ever.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

smb1973 said:


> No, it won't stall with just 1 notch finer, but neither does it fix the problems. I can't find a way to stop the early pour during the preinfusion without wrecking the main pour.
> 
> Here's another video as an example.


How much did you get out then (no scales?)? What did it taste like? Looks like it started at the end of preinfusion at 11sec in?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The pressure looks too low during pre infusion to me. I'd still suspect too much coffee in the basket.

What tend to happen with too much is the grinds expand and effectively get tamped even more. That can result in the water finding some way through the puck and flow starting. Sort of channelling after a fashion. Might just be water finding it's way around the puck. Getting problems with channelling around the edge isn't that unusual but different tamping can help with that. Also when things are extreme out of level tamping - water has more chance of running down the lowest side. A photo of the top of a used puck could be interesting.

I didn't get the hiccup in pump noise on the BE brewing coffee but I have had that on the DB a couple of times but only if things are wrong.







Recently actually while I am being Niched. Other things on the BE make me think that they do take note of what the flow meter does early on in a shot. On that my impression is that it will just go to full chat at some point to try and make fluid go though the puck. You seem to have hit the point where it isn't making its mind up cleanly and water is suddenly finding it's way through the puck explaining the eventual flow rates I see in the video.

I mainly started using the razor tool due to a timed grind. What comes out varies as the grinder setting is change also as I use a bean which is very light it gave me a reference point for others. Then I just tuned to a constant fill height on all beans even when weighing in. That gave me a weight that I would leave alone or adjust a bit. The other advantage of it is leaving a level puck - I always tamped again after using it.

If you reckon your clear of the razor tool I'd suggest reducing the dose to 9g and tuning again and see what happens. If the used puck is too wet try 9.5g. Don't be concerned about 30 sec shot time. You may need to go longer to get what you want. That area is down to you really as it depends on taste. Personally I always go for the taste description first. It can take some time and effort.

Also via a quick edit you can go to a higher pressure than that but be cautious going into the hatched area.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm lost.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm lost.


LOL Good hope you don't find your way back.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> I'm lost.










Being fairer it looks to me that the op has a puck that is suddenly turning into a gusher. In other words it's "channelled" in some fashion.

John

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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

OP, can you confirm the machine is not doing something funkey with the single shot button by either pulling a manual shot or running the double shot button with your single basket in.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

HowardSmith said:


> OP, can you confirm the machine is not doing something funkey with the single shot button by either pulling a manual shot or running the double shot button with your single basket in.


How do you get on with the single in your barista express ? Just curious. Some seem to have problems with singles, some don't. Some others just have problems with the machine.

John

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## HowardSmith (Jan 21, 2018)

ajohn said:


> How do you get on with the single in your barista express ? Just curious. Some seem to have problems with singles, some don't. Some others just have problems with the machine.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I don't use it. I actually don't use the machine right now but never did use the single basket. Gave it a go a few times but was wasting coffee & didn't see the point as I pretty much always want a double.


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

HowardSmith said:


> OP, can you confirm the machine is not doing something funkey with the single shot button by either pulling a manual shot or running the double shot button with your single basket in.


Nice idea, but I've just tried a few shots using both of those methods and no difference









The really weird thing for me is that way the preinfusion and the high pressure part of the shot seem to show different things.

- If I grind coarser, I have the pour starting after about 2-3 seconds and half the shot is through before the high pressure even starts. Which tells me I need to grind finer to fix it.

- If go the other way and grind fine enough so that only a small amount of the pour starts during the preinfusion, then the pump is pulsing, the pressure needle is bouncing around all over the place and I can hear the over pressure valve steaming.

- If I grind fine enough so that *none* of the pour comes though during preinfusion, then it stalls completely and I'll end up with just a few drops, even if I do a manual shot for about 40 seconds.

What I'm aiming for is:

1. The shot doesn't start until near the end of the preinfusion phase

2. I get the vast majority of the shot poured in the high pressure phase (rathe than half of it being delivered at low pressure)

3. During the high pressure phase, the pump and pressure are steady

4. The pour is reasonably steady, rather than spluttering

QUESTION: Is this a reasonable goal with this machine?

I might order a 1kg back of Columbian Suarez from Rave (which is so ridiculously easy and forgiving on a double shot that it's almost perfect every time) and just try 101 combinations of grind size and weight. There has to be some combination where I can have most of the shot coming through during the high pressure phase without the machine struggling, pulsing and sounding like it's going to explode!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

smb1973 said:


> - If I grind coarser, I have the pour starting after about 2-3 seconds and half the shot is through before the high pressure even starts. Which tells me I need to grind finer to fix it.
> 
> - If go the other way and grind fine enough so that only a small amount of the pour starts during the preinfusion, then the pump is pulsing, the pressure needle is bouncing around all over the place and I can hear the over pressure valve steaming.
> 
> - If I grind fine enough so that *none* of the pour comes though during preinfusion, then it stalls completely and I'll end up with just a few drops, even if I do a manual shot for about 40 seconds.


"Coarser, fine enough" are just too vague. Is this all happening over the space of 3 grind settings?

It would help ascertain if there is a problem if you log the following for your next few shots & discuss each shot:

Grind setting.

Dose, weighed after grinding.

Time from engaging pump to end of shot.

Weight of coffee in the cup, as read off the scales under the cup, on the drip tray, when the shot has finished.

Your take on what it tasted like. (sour, balanced).


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

MWJB said:


> "Coarser, fine enough" are just too vague. Is this all happening over the space of 3 grind settings?
> 
> It would help ascertain if there is a problem if you log the following for your next few shots & discuss each shot:
> 
> ...





MWJB said:


> "Coarser, fine enough" are just too vague. Is this all happening over the space of 3 grind settings?
> 
> It would help ascertain if there is a problem if you log the following for your next few shots & discuss each shot:
> 
> ...


Let's forget taste for now. I can get a shot that tastes "good enough" to me....It just doesn't seem right the way the machine behaves (and it's not as good as a double).

No, it's not happening over 3 grind settings. The point is, that if I go from a grind setting of 8 to a grind setting of 3, there is no point at which it behaves "right".

- At an 8 I'll have the majority of the shot through before the high pressure phase starts and the whole thing is way too quick

- At a 3 the pour starts at about the right time (end of low pressure phase) but the machine is pulsing, struggling and sometimes stalling during the rest of the shot and I end up with a few drops bitterness.

If I go in between, say a 5 or 6 then I'll get a bit of both. The pour sill start at about 5 secs, about 1/3 of the shot is through before the high pressure phase even starts, and yet the pump is still starting to struggle and pulse a little during the high pressure phase.

I'll do what you suggest log some shots in detail as I vary things. But in the meantime, this is a rough explanation of how things go at different grind sizes. All with 10g beans.


*Grind size**Approx amount of shot during preinfusion**Behaviour during high pressure phase**Approx size of shot**Taste*3A few drops at the end of preinfusionPump pulses continually. Coffee drips out rather than pours.10gAwful. Strong and very bitter.4Pour starts about 8-9 secs into 10 sec preinfusion.Pump pulses a lot. Sometimes stalls. Flow is uneven, going from drips to a messy pour, as if channelling.20g



Awful. Strong and very bitter.
​


5Starts about 7-8 secs into 10 sec preinfusion, then stops briefly.Pump pulses and pour is uneven (fast/slow/fast/slow)25gNot great. Not sure if bitter, sour or both.6Starts about 6 sec into 10 sec preinfusion. Perhaps about 10% of the shot poured before high pressure starts.Steady high pressure. Pump not pulsing. Pour is not smooth though. Uneven and splutters a little.27gTastes ok. Not as smooth or creamy as double, but ok.7Starts 4-5 secs into 10 sec preinfusion. Pump steady. Fairly fast pour.

Some spluttering in a messy pour.

30g



Tastes ok ish. Not as smooth or creamy as double, but ok.
​
8Starts 3-4 secs into 10 sec preinfusion.

>30% of shot poured before high pressure starts.Pump steady. Pour way too fast. Some spluttering.35gBad taste. very watery and thin. Sour.



The best compromise I've found is a grind of 6 or 7, depending on the beans. At those grinds I get something drinkable, but the pour is uneven and I have to accept that I'm getting more of the shot than I'd ideally like during the preinfusion phase.

If I go above or below 6/7, then things just get worse. Either I start to get way more of the shot delivered during the low pressure (coarser) or the pump starts to pulse then stall as I go finer, and it gets more bitter.

Surely I should be able to find a setting where I get the majority of the shot during the high pressure phase without the pump going mad and pulsing?
​


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Regarding taste, if they taste OK, it doesn't matter when the drips start or what the pump does.

The rather bizarre thing that jumps out at me is that your shot weights (why are they approx.?) change with grind setting? They should all be the same +/-3g or so.

Grind settings 3, 4, 5 & 8 are under-extracted. 3, 4, 5 might come good with more beverage in the cup. 8 might make a cup of filter strength coffee.

You're not making these shots, you are leaving it in the hands of the machine & the machine is just a kettle with a pump. It doesn't have to drink the stuff that comes out.

None of your singles will be as thick in mouthfeel as the doubles, if that is important to you, quit now.

Go back to grind setting 5, pull a manual shot to 40g.

Stop the shots manually, you might need to pre-empt final weight & kill the pump at 5-10g early.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

HowardSmith said:


> I don't use it. I actually don't use the machine right now but never did use the single basket. Gave it a go a few times but was wasting coffee & didn't see the point as I pretty much always want a double.


You may be correct about assuming a fault. Problem with this sort of thread. I reckon too much coffee but in practice it might just be grinding too fine and the pump stalling as I assume that the op has been through all of that. If the pump stalls things are at high pressure or should be according to the gauge. If water eventually manages to flow through the puck anywhere flow will usually start and increase - channelling of some form. This is what the 1st video I looked at seemed to show.







Next one same thing over and over again. Doesn't make sense.

So some button fault or dodgy pump action might account for it so do try the double button.

I have had the same thing happen on my DB recently but only since switching to a Niche grinder and just one hiccup during infusion and flow does establish itself







impeccable puck preparation. For some reason as others have noticed flow starts late with grinds off the Niche when it's tuned to give some shot size in the same time as usual. Both the DB and the BE have flow meters. On the BE I lashed up a portafilter pressure gauge and had odd behaviour the first few times I pressed the button then an O ring seal I had used sprang a bit of a leak, just a dribble and things worked as expected. I suspect that Sage expect to see a certain amount of flow early on and when it doesn't see it gets the hiccups. (Hiccups saves typing pump stops briefly and then starts again) Of coarse the pump just stops when it stalls but why low pressures on the gauge.

What people would expect on most machines is that the pump would just keep on running with water gushing out of the opv until the flow meter says enough on the BE and ends the shot. My DB should as it's set just run for 30 sec. It does but a hiccup reduces the shot size. I don't think there is anything wrong with it's buttons. I've read that they can eventually become inclined to stick on any machine that uses the same type. That from memory would cause the BE to remain in infusion. Maybe stick really means releasing slower than they should. If stuck can't see how some one could repeatedly pull shots.

So I still suspect grinds / dose size or maybe light tamping etc to grind finer. What should happen on the gauge is the pressure increase smoothly to some level during infusion, flow starting during infusion. At the end of infusion it should go pretty rapidly up to the pressure set by the grinder setting. Shock horror about the last from some but that is how the machine is intended to be used. It can work out as well. The important aspect I found on the BE is that infusion must show significant pressure. What's needed varies, maybe circa 8 o'clock. No rules it's part of tuning. Sage say grind to get the gauge to 12 o'clock, and a ratio about 3.3 in 30 sec. That may result in no pressure at all during infusion which may be ok in the double - I'd so no chance in the single so the needle must go past 12 o'clock post infusion. Shot time probably increasing. Sounds like a lot of faff to tune but it's not really any different to tuning a bean in on any machine. The 12 o'clock position represents the usual brewing pressures that are generally used. I'd be inclined to bet that the DTP is set up the same way but the only indication they have about brewing at 15bar is water going into the drip tray. That is the brew pressure when the BE gauge is a bit past the espresso range. This pressure will need different tuning to machines that brew at 8,9 or what ever it uses or the user has set. The gauge on the DB suggests it's intended to be used the same way as the BE. I brew against the OPV - 10bar. The espresso sector is 8 to 10 on the gauge. Some change the machine setting and grind for 6 bar.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Shock horror about the last from some but that is how the machine is intended to be used.
> 
> John
> 
> -


No shock, no horror, not even the faintest whiff of surprise. OP is using the machine as apparently "intended to be used" (are you saying manual activation of the brew switch is not possible? If it is, this is also an "intended use") and it is not working out, hence the existence of the thread in the first place.


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## smb1973 (Jan 21, 2019)

ajohn said:


> You may be correct about assuming a fault. Problem with this sort of thread. I reckon too much coffee but in practice it might just be grinding too fine and the pump stalling as I assume that the op has been through all of that. If the pump stalls things are at high pressure or should be according to the gauge. If water eventually manages to flow through the puck anywhere flow will usually start and increase - channelling of some form. This is what the 1st video I looked at seemed to show.














Next one same thing over and over again. Doesn't make sense.

So some button fault or dodgy pump action might account for it so do try the double button.

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Yes - channelling makes some sense to me. But can't seem to stop it.

I have tried timing the shot manually (hold button for preinfusion until first drops come through, then release. Press button again to stop shot)

I have also tried doing this with the double button to see if it's something wrong with the single button. No change.

Of course, I can vary the volume / extraction / taste using this method. But I can't do anything about the problem I raised here - (i.e. a relatively early flow, coupled with the main flow being irregular / spluttering) without making something else much worse.

That's the bit I really want to focus on. When I use the double basket I get a "classic" smooth poor. The streams are steady, even, smooth and tidy. When I use the single basket it tends to spurt out like someone has their thumb over the end of a hose pipe.

If I try to fix it by grinding coarse, all I do is get a quick flow and a sour shot. If I try to fix it by grinding finer, I can get the shot to look slightly smoother, but at the expense of the pump pressure pulsing up and down like crazy and the pressure relief valve kicking in (which surely isnt right?)
​


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

smb1973 said:


> When I use the double basket I get a "classic" smooth poor. The streams are steady, even, smooth and tidy. When I use the single basket it tends to spurt out like someone has their thumb over the end of a hose pipe.


The double basket has a deeper puck & more holes, this will mean more undissolved particles in the cup, these undissolved particles give viscosity to the brew, so yes, they will look smoother. Personally, I don't worry too much about tidy pours, I'll take a scrappy looking tasty pour any day over a picture perfect untasty one.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Just to eliminate the problem being related to something prior to the machine, can you video shot prep?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

smb1973 said:


> If I try to fix it by grinding coarse, all I do is get a quick flow and a sour shot. If I try to fix it by grinding finer, I can get the shot to look slightly smoother, but at the expense of the pump pressure pulsing up and down like crazy and the pressure relief valve kicking in (which surely isnt right?)
> ​


I would be inclined to say that every time I used the single the OPV was opening but only just. Some water going into the drip tray from it. As I mentioned I measured how much. The main problem is that this can only be approached very carefully and the only control is the dose and grinder setting. Increasing the dose as I mentioned earlier will slow down the flow rate and providing you don't go too far past the point where the puck sticks that's ok. The drink will get weaker if you do and the puck rather hard to knock out.

Unfortunately I can't fire up my BE and see when flow should start as the grinder is bust. Fault reported but I needed to get at some of my gear to be sure of being able to show an engineer what it's doing. Without it and it's grinder I have no way of sensibly putting grinds in. Can't say as I noticed any real difference when I switched to the DB so I would assume somewhere in the range of 5 to 8 secs depending on bean from when the button is pressed. It should spend some time hovering at what ever pressure infusion gives.

I'm still inclined to suggest a restart and the razor tool followed by a retamp as no bean I have ever used has given this sort of behaviour. Start with the grinder at 8 and then adjust one step at a time. Don't worry about creeping a little way into the opv opening region and taste test. It's not a good idea to assume some ratio and time will be correct.

The other thing that can crop up on the BE is that it's volumetric so it will try and control the output. The default setting of the double should I hope be capable of getting close to what you are likely to want to come out ratio wise and can be terminated by a button press. If you weigh out on the fly I'd suggest trying 40g. You can always run longer or shorter to see what that does. Time I expect will need to be over 30 sec but ............... what matters is taste.

The only other things I can think of is prep problems and that crema can be bitter - good stir with a spoon can help with that. One man's fruit tastes may not match another's. I had to find a low acid bean to suite my wife. Depending how it's brewed it has a pretty distinctive taste that is rather strong that some people describe as bitter. My wife who dislikes costabucks due to it being bitter to her describes my brew as too strong so I cut the shot time to 20secs for her - that makes it sweet.

It's not possible to know what a bean can taste like without trying variations.

John

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