# Our Customers Tell Us.........



## 4085

is an excuse the supermarkets tel us all the time whenever they want to do anything that we may not like but will help them make more money. Years ago there was a documentary on about Tesco veg buyers visiting Kenya and informing the farmr, that where they used to accept Bobby Beans of indiscriminate size and shape, their customers have told them that they will only accpet beans that are perfectly straight. This meant that the poor people picking them used to pick 6 baskets a day, and now they were able to only pick less than 1.

So, which stupid bugger decided that all coffee shops cater for those people who like light beans (and getting lighter) with all sorts of other third wave Bohemian nuances?

It is hard going into a coffee shop in Newcastle that does not use HasBean, and if I see that I just walk out. Not knocking HB although over the years their roasts have gone noticably light. So why? I can only be cycnical and think of production costs eg heating. Could this really be true?


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## Mrboots2u

Didn't we do this a month ago after the jay Rayner article.


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## Neill

Yawn

13 scorched beans


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## 4085

Jay who? Never heard of him! If we did, what was the outcome.......I want to send the person responsible a piece of Geordie shortbread


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## garydyke1

Noticably medium


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## Drewster

dfk41 said:


> is an excuse the supermarkets tel us all the time whenever they want to do anything that we may not like but will help them make more money. Years ago there was a documentary on about Tesco veg buyers visiting Kenya and informing the farmr, that where they used to accept *Bobby Beans* of indiscriminate size and shape, their customers have told them that they will only accpet beans that are perfectly straight. This meant that the poor people picking them used to pick 6 baskets a day, and now they were able to only pick less than 1.
> 
> So, which stupid bugger decided that all coffee shops cater for those people who like light beans (and getting lighter) with all sorts of other third wave Bohemian nuances?
> 
> It is hard going into a coffee shop in Newcastle that does not use HasBean, and if I see that I just walk out. Not knocking HB although over the years their roasts have gone noticably light. So why? I can only be cycnical and think of production costs eg heating. Could this really be true?


WTF is a Bobby Bean? I think I remember the program and I thought it was "Mange Tout" - I did live in London at the time so it was probably sub-titled for poncy southerners!

But I agree "Our Customers tell us/want/demand" is an awful phrase brought out far, far, far too often....

"Our customers demand....." "cheap" meat/sausage/mince/chicken.... which is why we sell liquidised animal slurry and call it meat/sausage/mince/chicken...

I have never (and I know of no one who has) ever asked to be sold sh*te ust because it is cheap... Good quality stuff "cheaper" possibly but never that crap!!


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## 4085

A Bobby Bean is a fine green bean, same principle as Mangetout though. I mean the name suggests you eat it all! Years ago I had a greengrocers shop. All year ound you but Dutch greenhouse produced stuf. It always looks immaculate but has no taste at all, no matter what the product is. In summer, I used to buy boxes of english grade 3 cucumbers and they were always curly. People would turn up thei nose at them, until one day I chopped o a dutch one and an english one, arranged them on aplate and asked which was which!

Ok Gary, why did HB change their roasting style then from what t was, to what it is? There must have been a reason. If after many cupping sessions, they decided the flavour of one roast style was better than another thats fine, but just their opinion of course


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## Obnic

I get the impression that Has Bean is a personality led business (not necessarily a bad thing) but my impression is that the main guy has a strong view of what 'good' is, and that's what his business offers. He's clearly engaged in the whole supply chain and he's an innovator but he's bringing his perspective and customers that agree follow.

Ideals of this model might be Dyson 'you're all making hoovers badly', Steve Jobs 'don't be a bozo', and Larry Ellis (oracle) 'teamwork is a lot of people doing exactly what I tell them'. None exactly customer led.

Supermarkets are a very different phenomenon, we're going to see big changes in this sector. The super-discounters have changed the way people shop. They don't do a weekly one-stop shop anymore. All the big boys are the wrong shape to compete.


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## Mrboots2u

Ok look at successive hasbean IMM.

Look at cupping notes for each one

This will tell you that they roast different beans to different levels . Some past second crack, some medium some not . May be to your taste , may be not , try em you'll find out .

David I know you base your impression of HB roasting may be base on coffee you have in cafés in Newcastle you don't like . That's fair enough , you don't like it . I'm not going to convince you should .

They could be under extracting them , they might not be .

They ( HB ) as any other good roasters does, looks at the roast level they see appropriate for for each bean and decides where they want to take that bean .

To suggest its based on electricity costs and use age isn't helpful and I would hope isn't a serious statement .

They don't have to roast to our taste , the same as other roasters don't have to roast to mine .

Cafe don't have to sell a coffee to my tastes either or yours.

If enough people like what they do, they will survive , if they don't they won't .

I'm sorry you can't find cafe you like in Newcastle that sells coffee you find tasty ,your not the only one in that position .

That not one roasters " fault " though .

If you don't like it don't go there ( same as costa etc ...)


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## Xpenno

I told them to, all of them, mwhahaha


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## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> Ok Gary, why did HB change their roasting style then from what t was, to what it is? There must have been a reason. If after many cupping sessions, they decided the flavour of one roast style was better than another thats fine, but just their opinion of course


Ive only been in coffee in one form or another for about 6/7 years but from where I am standing - because specialty coffee started to exist and grow .... buyers started to care .... farmers started to care more..... quality improved .... differences in flavour and aroma were found from differing origins, varietals, processes. .... and the roasters wanted to highlight and preserve what was special for each particular attribute , rather than make everything taste like a mediocre Brazil.

In the past 4 weeks in my wholesale role i have discovered more flaws in coffee brewing than i have in roasting, and every roast I have witnessed / tasted has been 1) spot on 2) pretty much medium on the scale 3) absolutely appropriate for the coffee. Although I like some coffees more than others , not once has roast level even been a conversation


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## 4085

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok look at successive hasbean IMM.
> 
> Look at cupping notes for each one
> 
> This will tell you that they roast different beans to different levels . Some past second crack, some medium some not . May be to your taste , may be not , try em you'll find out .
> 
> David I know you base your impression of HB roasting may be base on coffee you have in cafés in Newcastle you don't like . That's fair enough , you don't like it . I'm not going to convince you should .
> 
> They could be under extracting them , they might not be .
> 
> They ( HB ) as any other good roasters does, looks at the roast level they see appropriate for for each bean and decides where to take that bean .
> 
> To suggest its based on electricity costs and use age isn't helpful and I would hope isn't a serious statement .
> 
> They don't have to roast to our taste , the same as other roasters don't have to roast to mine .
> 
> Cafe don't have to sell a coffee to my tastes either or yours.
> 
> If enough people like what they do, they will survive , if they don't they won't .
> 
> I'm sorry you can't find cafe you like in Newcastle that sells coffee you find tasty ,your not the only one in that position .
> 
> That not one roasters " fault " though .
> 
> If you don't like it don't go there ( same as costa etc ...)


Boots, what a lot of drivel man! I was drnking Has BEan when you were just a baby faced student. I quite liked it several years ago when I had pump machines but my tastes have changed to darker stuff. The point I was making, was that HB for example, appeared to have notched all their roasts down a level or two, in line with much of the industry. Why? tatse is a subjective thing. No business makes a subjective decision if it costs them money. The whole industry seems to have dummed down.

Aliken it to washing powder. Why do we need powder, liquid, tabs, sachets etc etc. They all wash. the answer, marketing of course. If it did not suit a roasters pocket to roast light, then he would not.

if I walk into a coffeeshop and see HB beans, I know I am going to get a lighter roasted version because that is what they do.


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## Mrboots2u

Then don't go there , same as I dont to go to a costa or a Starbucks .

I'm not debating The finer points of light roasts and it being being dummed down or people roasting to save electricity it's of so little merit I won't waste type on it . it's a point made to stir and inflame , rather than through any evidence or logic you have of back it up .

Have fun on the thread , I made my points . Enjoy the debate and try and keep it nice and friendly please .


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## 4085

I am always nice and friendly, well, most of the time. Just do not try and take a steak pie off me whilst I am eating it.......this was not a slant at HB. It was a serious question, which could be rephrased, why do coffee shop owners put up with light roasts? I was in a well know place in town where they have started roasting their own now. In my view, the quality has really suffered. he gave ,e a hario flash and I have to be honest, the last thing in the world it tasted of was coffee, and this chap knos his onions.....or used to.

If you go to an Italian style coffee you will not get any of this new wave stuff.......I guess it is just a fad and hopefully will soon blow away into the distance. I am just waiting for MP to turn up with a combine harvester and a coffee plantation to show the judges how coffee is really treated before pulling out his Kickstarter coffee roaster that makes a drip coffee from the still hot beans.......


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## seeq

Personally I like the 'new wave' stuff. As do many people. Speciality coffee has increased in popularity over the last few years. This seems to coincide with lighter roasts. You could argue that dumming down has made it more accessible, because most people prefer the lighter roasts? Or it could just be a coincidence. (Most likely the latter)

Regardless I struggle to believe it's about cost saving, the amount would be negligible. Roasters like hasbean or origin have grown massively over the last few years. They must be doing something right as there is plenty of choice out there if you want a darker roast.


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## 4085

So, are we saying that the roaster gets it spot on for each bean, sits and tries various roast levels and decides lighter is better? On none DSOL beans, we have has some very lazy roasters who have simply taken a standard bean they roast and taken it further, without any due consideration, and they have been rank. Others have done similar things but with care and thought and produced decent stuff. So, if we gave the same bean to two good roasters and told one to go lighter and ken darker, could they both produce acceptable drinks?


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## sjenner

You're miles behind the curve with this Dave (DFK)...

If you ain't drinking cold brew, you ain't making coffee!


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> .......this was not a slant at HB. .......


It clearly was, you didn't mention any other roasters.



dfk41 said:


> .......I am just waiting for MP to turn up with a combine harvester and a coffee plantation to show the judges how coffee is really treated before pulling out his Kickstarter coffee roaster that makes a drip coffee from the still hot beans.......


What on earth...???

You're just making up fantasies to illustrate what you see as some axis of evil in the coffee world, then try to pass it off as a "serious question" & not a witch hunt - which it clearly is. Buy the coffee you like, enjoy it...just as you don't like being dictated to as to what is "good" or otherwise, neither do we.


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## DavecUK

dfk41 said:


> So, which stupid bugger decided that all coffee shops cater for those people who like light beans (and getting lighter) with all sorts of other third wave Bohemian nuances? So why? I can only be cycnical and think of production costs eg heating. Could this really be true?


Not wanting to discuss any particular roaster or coffee shop. The core question appears to be who asked for this style of coffee and roasting. The answer is, the industry, none of the coffee consumers, the consumers only had to buy into the marketing hype....This was hype created by and crafted by the industry as it looked to evolve. All done to sell more and make more money for it's members, which is OK as far as I am concerned, as long as there is still a healthy spectrum of roasting available.

I think the coffee shops for me now have moved a long way from providing a beverage, to food, atmosphere and trend (I include the big chains here as well), these are places I increasingly choose not to frequent. I also find their prices rather high and am unwilling to pay them.

I suspect the wheel will continue to turn and we will end up somewhere back where we started from....in a sense like fashion, flares came and went, then a few years back they appeared again.....never quite as bad as the 60s, but in a more muted form.


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## DavidBondy

Speaking for myself, I really only like dark roasts. That's the main reason why I roast them myself. I have recently bought some roasted beans from Coffee Compass but that was to take one variable out of learning to use the GS/3.

I'll drink a lighter roasted bean but just not enjoy it as much.

I didn't like Reiss' Rwandan. Just not to my taste likewise most of Steve Leighton's roasts. I vote with my wallet!

Back to David's original point though, it's not just supermarkets who say this type of thing. Every time he wanted to do something unpopular or expensive Ken Livingstone (remember him?) started off with "Londoners tell me .....!"


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## 4085

I used Hb as an example, as I have in the past bought plenty of their beans on a reguar basis, and then bought some the Xmas before last. I have seen many people comment on how they perceive HB in this case, to have changed their roasting stle. Are they all wrong as wel? I have absolutely nothing against Steve, even though he is ginger and supports Sunderland, but he tells everyone that. My initial question was 100% accurate in that I asked who is dictating what we drink and why. If it is purely down to the roasters interpretation of tatste and flavor then that is subjective.

My questions were light hearted but genuine. The reference to MP was clealy a slant at the EK43 which had beena round for years until he, all of a sudden made it fashnable then everyone wants one.

Still, thats just MHO, which might be as big a pile of steaming coffee pucks .........like anyones opinion can be to ther people. If I was instigating a witch hunt MArk, I would be less subtle and more direct, as is my way!


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## Thecatlinux

I personally prefer the darker roasts , but I can still recall my first hasbean offering from Haley at the window it was like someone giving me a sherbet lemon for the first time . Totally amazing and I have to say opened my eyes to the world of great coffee and how diverse coffee roasting blending and extraction can be .


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## Glenn

There are a lot of new roasters who are entering the market with their acidic offerings. More and more people are moving towards darker roasts and back to blends.

A lot of my work colleagues are starting to move away from coffeeshops who are using light roasts in favour of a more rounded cup. The market taste appears to be changing.


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## MWJB

specialty coffee is very much in the minority in the coffee industry. Specialty beans are just that (beans), until they produce a beverage...which may be special, may not - as with any coffee. Specific roast level just isn't the issue that it's made out to be. As long as the beans are nominally extractable (which typically, they are - though this may not always be achieved) you'll get nice coffee.


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## 4085

Thecatlinux said:


> I personally prefer the darker roasts , but I can still recall my first hasbean offering from Haley at the window it was like someone giving me a sherbet lemon for the first time . Totally amazing and I have to say opened my eyes to the world of great coffee and how diverse coffee roasting blending and extraction can be .


Is Hayley at the window any relation to Herby Hind the counter?


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## Thecatlinux

dfk41 said:


> Is Hayley at the window any relation to Herby Hind the counter?


NO

Fourteen Char


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## 4085

Glenn makes an interesting point. If more people who buy coffee shun the shops producing the acidic drinks, and seek out the blended/darker shops will the industry follow. I can drink lighter coffee, bu I do not enjoy it. I am not a big coffee shop purchaser, so perhaps I should not get so excited, but, if you pays your money, you want tot ake your choice.

I have often asked to be shown the darkest bean on offer, and it struggles to pass itself off as medium. Anyway, the non prentecious shop used to sell blended coffee and possibly only one sort. The new shops are certainly offering a choice with filter, cona, various pourovers as well as espressos, but as opposed to catering for the whole specrum of taste they seem to hone in. Yes sir, we have 6 beans on offer, all single origin grown using the best methods and bought through a co-op so the farmer wins, but, they are all roasted to the same level.......so, can you roast a so bean beyond medium then and enjoy it......I hope so because I do all the time!


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> My questions were light hearted but genuine. The reference to MP was clealy a slant at the EK43 which had beena round for years until he, all of a sudden made it fashnable then everyone wants one.
> 
> Still, thats just MHO, which might be as big a pile of steaming coffee pucks .........like anyones opinion can be to ther people. If I was instigating a witch hunt MArk, I would be less subtle and more direct, as is my way!


Hasbean

Matt Perger

EK43 (identified by Scott Rao years ago...as stated by MP)

Light roasts

...c'mon keep going... Then maybe start a list of things you do like, that might be interesting, but probably short as you don't seem to give positive notions half as much effort.

I'm still at a loss as to who this coffee dictator is that tells you to buy light roasts, can other people see/hear him too, is he in the room with you now...does his image appear on camera, or is he invisible to imaging media?


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## 4085

Mark, davec has already suggested who this coffee dictator is. He does not make me buy light roasts, as what is the point. If you really want me to list things I like about coffee I will, though I doubt anyone would read it. You seem to be of the opinion that no one else should have an opinion.......discussion is good at any level, whether you agree or not.


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## Mrboots2u

I said I wouldn't come back to this thread but I have to . Please tell me who the coffee dictator is ( I can't tell from DaveC posts )

if she or he has the power to make people drink a slightly less roasted brown liquid than another then I'd like to use their powers for even more evil design of my own ...

Ps this thread is now hilarious thanks ...


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## Drewster

Mrboots2u said:


> I said I wouldn't come back to this thread but I have to . Please tell me who the coffee dictator is ( I can't tell from DaveC posts )
> 
> if she or he has the power to make people drink a slightly less roasted brown liquid than another then I'd like to use their powers for even more evil design of my own ...
> 
> Ps this thread is now *hilarious* thanks ...


Er(13)rrrr really?


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## MWJB

I'm all for sensible discussion. Your "opinions" are just negative swipes, based on very little that is tangible. Well, I have to say, your list of things you like was even shorter than I anticipated.


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## 4085

Nope, this was a serious thread Mark, so despite your usual bitching at me, I am not going to rise and let it degenerate to the level you want.

Bootsie, Davec tells you quite plainly, that in his view it is an industry decision....ebven I understood that!


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## Mrboots2u

Roasters roasting lighter to save electricity

A coffee dictator

Next there will be a giant coffee bean in the sky that will come to save us all

( trademark and copyright Mrboots - this could be the next Harry potter )


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## Obnic

seeq said:


> ....You could argue that dumming down has made it more accessible, because most people prefer the lighter roasts? Or it could just be a coincidence. (Most likely the latter).


This is pure assertion on my part rather than expertise but listening to Gary (...growers care...) I wonder if this isn't a lot like wine making.

Go to regions like Nuits St George and you'll get light floral reds. Go to regions like Languedoc and you'll get bold, jammy reds. Go to villages like Gigondas or Montperoux and you'll get big, in your face spicy long tasting reds. Go to appellations like Chateau Neuf du Pape and you'll get everything including huge, complex, massively alcoholic but perfectly balanced reds.

In each case the grower and oenologist are trying to get what they believe is the best result from their vines, variety, terroire, and harvest. It just happens that further north there is a faith in more delicacy in the glass being the best expression of their grapes.

And even then the market supports industrial winemaking that produces barely drinkable alcoholic, unbalanced, mono-tasting grape juice that is cooked up in metal vats the size of a house and infused with wood shavings in giant tea bags to try to tone down the caustic result.


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> Nope, this was a serious thread Mark, so despite your usual bitching at me, I am not going to rise and let it degenerate to the level you want.
> 
> Bootsie, Davec tells you quite plainly, that in his view it is an industry decision....ebven I understood that!


Presumably they all meet in a special secret room to decide these things then?


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## 4085

Could I name the film please? How about Mr Boots and the giant coffee bean


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## Mrboots2u

Or mr bean and the giant boots


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## 4085

Boots, are you naieve or stupid? it would have to be in secret otherwise we would all know about this plot that we have unearthed


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## seeq

It is a point. You can get cheap beans for around £3-4 per 250g in the supermarket. What would be the point of roasters trying to compete with that? They cant, so there is no benefit in reducing quality to save cost.


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> Boots, are you naieve or stupid? it would have to be in secret otherwise we would all know about this plot that we have unearthed


Ah I see...I am both naive and stupid , this is how THEY influence me so readily .....,,


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## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> Presumably they all meet in a special secret room to decide these things then?


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## 4085

Seeq, your maths is £12 to £16 a kilo. If you visit Rave for example, there is a big choice in that price bracket? Further to that, the supermarkets on the whole, only sell stuff most of us would not dream of drinking, so you cannot really compare them to speciality roasting


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## 4085

Thecatlinux said:


>


haha........now we are getting near the truth I suspect!


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## Obnic

Mrboots2u said:


> Roasters roasting lighter to save electricity.


This is not completely implausible in a world of high volume integrated supply chains. I know a chap who specialises in building and tuning biscuit baking factories. That's why these days your high bake water biscuits are barely tanned but they are brittle.

Harry Potter and the Bean in the Sky though... less plausible


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## DavecUK

Mrboots2u said:


> I said I wouldn't come back to this thread but I have to . Please tell me who the coffee dictator is ( I can't tell from DaveC posts )
> 
> if she or he has the power to make people drink a slightly less roasted brown liquid than another then I'd like to use their powers for even more evil design of my own ...
> 
> Ps this thread is now hilarious thanks ...


I have not used the word Dicator, but Boots, perhaps you underestimate the power of marketing. Marketing is extremely powerful and drives peoples purchasing decisions, whether they realise it or not. None of us are immune to it's effects. not even me and I spent many years in Marketing. Even knowing how and what they are doing, does not make it any less effective. Coffee in all it's forms has been really heavily marketed for the last 40 years and even more so in recent years, because of the massive profits to be made.

All I stated was my believe that it has been heavily marketed by the Industry and consumers have bought into this marketing....it's part of the reason new roasters are springing up every day. The unfortunate bit is, they often open with little or no experience or repackage and resell (parasitic), rather than roast. Their ideas about coffee and roasting have almost entirely been formed by marketing and what the industry is pushing now. they focus on the fantastic web site, the good marketing, but often lack the experience to roast great coffee. One such operation that recently sprung up, the mean age was around 20 years old with no one older than 24. I think they were graduates, so their experience of coffee would have been limited in the extreme. Probably around 6 years drinking, 0 years roasting...then they feel they can learn on the job....the point being the coffee they do, will be influenced totally by the current Zeitgeist surrounding coffee.

Having been drinking coffee for nearly 40 years and using espresso machines/grinders for over 30 years....I have seen a lot of change....is it good or bad, I don't really know, I suspect some of it is not so good for the consumer. I just know what I personally like to drink.


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## Mrboots2u

Dave kid said dictator not you







apologies

I understand the power and concept of marketing , I own a business and have worked on large and small scale marketing plans in other jobs too . I am on working parties for local and national marketing too for said business .I also have a degree in economics and media . Thanks for the explanation though .


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## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> Dave kid said dictator not you
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> apologies
> 
> I understand the power and concept of marketing , I own a business and have worked on large and small scale marketing plans in other jobs too . I am on working parties for local and national marketing too for said business .I also have a degree in economics and media . Thanks for the explanation though .


Is that numberwang ?


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## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> Is that numberwang ?


Could be yes .........


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## Obnic

DavecUK said:


> I have not used the word Dicator, but Boots, perhaps you underestimate the power of marketing. Marketing is extremely powerful and drives peoples purchasing decisions, whether they realise it or not. None of us are immune to it's effects.












13 Marketeers


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## Obnic

This seemed fitting too


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## Mrboots2u

Anyways gonna duck out for a super secret meeting where me and a select group people are influencing what length trousers you wear , we really are , you don't know it , soon all trousers will be shorter than required .

It started years ago with William Shatner In a Star Trek ..I think Simon Cowell is going too.

They will all be of a light beige colour too.......


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## MWJB

This "marketing", where is it? If you're talking about a few banners on a forum with less than 10000 members (way less than 0.1% penetration of the coffee consumers in the UK) & word of mouth recommendations from said members, it appears to otherwise be absent from the marketplace?

If you have to hunt it down on niche forums is it really that pervasive?


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## garydyke1

Not sure how many times this has to be said, Has Bean (we) do not roast 'light' , nor do we roast for a fad, a trend, to make it 'easy to brew'. Beans are precious expensive prized ingredients. Steve works very hard to make relationships with farmers and source the most delicious coffees in the world.

The guys roast to make the coffee taste as delicious as they can , highlighting what is good and unique about a particular coffee, without adding any roast flavour. There are plenty of roasters who roast WAAAAY lighter and some WAAAAY darker than we do .

If you like it , good! If you don't and its not for you, then go elsewhere. Its a free choice


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## Drewster

Mrboots2u said:


> Roasters roasting lighter to save electricity
> 
> A coffee dictator
> 
> Next there will be a giant coffee bean in the sky that will come to save us all
> 
> ( trademark and copyright Mrboots - this could be *the next Harry Potter* )


Wouldn't you need an original story and a decent plot?

Surely you couldn't swamp the entire media with marketing and hype to make a mediocre re-hash of a "young goody-goody loses parents but is destined to battle and triumph over evil......" - Oh hang on I see what you did there!!!!


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## Charliej

One possible perspective I have heard regarding the very very light style of roasting is that as more and more roasters are travelling to origin and cupping and buying their coffees at source where the beans are typically roasted in a much lighter way in order to show up defects more easily. Roasters then become accustomed to drinking beans roasted this way and this then becomes their preferred taste so they mostly roast in that way, there also does seem to be a number of people who seem to want to make tasting coffee into some wine snobbery like affair, this is human nature as you will always get in any hobby or pursuit an element of people who wish to make it more exclusive and to try and distinguish themselves from the masses. For me few things annoy me more than the whole wine snob attitude being taken into other areas and how on earth some of the wine tasters even arrive at the things they claim to taste, some of which are highly implausible for them to have ever put in their mouths is beyond me. Here is an interesting article discussing this: http://www.slate.com/articles/life/drink/2011/02/velvety_chocolate_with_a_silky_ruby_finish_pair_with_shellfish.html

Here is another apparently real tasting note



> Dark as David Fincher, this beauty unwinds waves of hovercraft oil, BDSM dungeon sweat and Fair-trade biodynamic hand-cultivated chocolate from a mountaintop parcel of land in a coastal rainforest. A brooding mistress of devilish wonder - uncork it for a seance tonight or pair it with freshly killed goat from a voodoo ritual. This one will make you wonder what you're doing with your life.


I would hate to see our mutual love of coffee go down this highly pretentious self serving route. I've found that if you select the coffee you are drinking carefully based upon your own tastes then it is perfectly possible to have none face pullingly acidic light roast beans, if the beans have been roasted well, this is the key I think, experienced roasters seem to have the knowledge to roast a bean to get the best from it, and some will even offer a bean in differing roast levels to cater for different customers. The problem seems to lie in as DaveC has said, inexperienced newbies jumping on the latest bandwagon and deciding being a coffee roaster might be fun and easy money, and as they see lighter roast beans in the trendier cafes and coffee shops of our big cities, head down that route without the knowledge of when to stop a roast so that the flavours have a chance to develop properly without stopping too early or too late. As an example if any coffee had the tasting note of "grassy" I would avoid it like the plague as that would most certainly hint at an under-roasted underdeveloped bean.

One other thing to consider from Gary's point above is the thing about not adding any roast flavours, well to me this isn't true as simply by roasting a bean you change it's flavour and you really really don't want to be trying to drink a brew made from totally unroasted greens ( I have), it's simply foul and undrinkable, yet that's the only way you can guarantee not influencing the flavours with your roast. You could take any of the better known roasters who tend to roast in a lighter style and give them a sack of the same beans and they would all end up with a different result yet they are all



> highlighting what is good and unique about a particular coffee, without adding any roast flavour


 so which one of them is right or wrong? The answer to me is none of them, as they all have different palates.

Just drink what you prefer drinking and let others deal with their own personal tastes in coffee.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Young people are allowed to roast ,they all have to start somewhere . If they are good they will find a market and succeed , if they aren't they won't .

Sure they can partner with someone more experienced in a business but this isn't always practical .

People get experience by doing stuff . Things change by new people coming in with a fresh view point and challenging more experienced people's thoughts and processes .....

It's a pretty cynical view point to think all new young roasters are in it for a quick quid and coz it's somehow fashionable .

It isn't a world view I want to subscribe to particularly ( yes probably being naive and stupid again







)

The " young people " I've met who are baristas and roast have been incredibly passionate about what they do. They ain't making a pile of money from it and their skills and knowledge would put 99 percent of us hobbyists to shame .


----------



## Thecatlinux

Second that sentiment MR boots, good to have young people having a go , they have a knack of being fresh and can bring a new perspective to things.

on another note surely the biggest influence outside of Mother Nature and the big yellow ball of fire, is the sourcing and grading of the beans ,


----------



## 4085

Aw, shucks, my child is seriously ill and very very unwell. When I go to the doctors I am given a choice of seeing a doctor who qualified last week, or one who to retire next week.............be a young, enthusiastic coffee roaster, but if you are charging for it, make sure it is decent. We have all bought coffee from retailers and thought it not very good. the DSOl had some of the worst coffee have yasyed from one of the biggest names.

@Gary, I am not a total bigot. If you could select me a couple of beans to buy and try from Steve, I will order them today. Take a free choice. DO not worry about the roast level but I do not like acidic coffee

herte is a question. What should coffee taste of? I guess we would all say coffee, so when we eat that tiramasu for example, we say, wow, that coffee is nice......not, that coffee cuts accross the mascarpone with mouthfeel and taste of plums leading to greengages


----------



## The Systemic Kid

All this mention of 'marketing' - 80% of new products that come to market with heavy marketing budgets behind them disappear from view pretty quickly inspite of being extensively tested in focus groups and the like. The advertising in the coffee industry is focused on instant where the real profit is. Third wave coffee roasters/outlets have sprung up, in part, as a counterpoint to the mega outlets like Starbucks and offer something different. If customers don't like what they offer, they will vote with their feet.


----------



## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> Young people are allowed to roast ,they all have to start somewhere . If they are good they will find a market and succeed , if they aren't they won't .
> 
> Sure they can partner with someone more experienced in a business but this isn't always practical .
> 
> People get experience by doing stuff . Things change by new people coming in with a fresh view point and challenging more experienced people's thoughts and processes .....
> 
> It's a pretty cynical view point to think all new young roasters are in it for a quick quid and coz it's somehow fashionable .
> 
> It isn't a world view I want to subscribe to particularly ( yes probably being naive and stupid again
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> The " young people " I've met who are baristas and roast have been incredibly passionate about what they do. They ain't making a pile of money from it and their skills and knowledge would put 99 percent of us hobbyists to shame .


Martin I don't believe that anywhere in my post did I say that all young new roasters are in it for fast bucks and because it's fashionable, I targeted my statement to the ones that are in it for those reasons and they do exist which is why new roasteries seem to be springing up all over. The young people you have met involved in coffee have mainly been via the forum or its members and as such are not typical of the country as a whole.I've always believed that in any job you keep learning continually and that learning can be from someone more experienced than you, or a fresh perspective from someone new to the job, anyone that does think they know it all about any given subject is guilty of colossal arrogance in my book.


----------



## Thecatlinux

dfk41 said:


> Aw, shucks, my child is seriously ill and very very unwell. When I go to the doctors I am given a choice of seeing a doctor who qualified last week, or one who to retire next week.............be a young, enthusiastic coffee roaster, but if you are charging for it, make sure it is decent. We have all bought coffee from retailers and thought it not very good. the DSOl had some of the worst coffee have yasyed from one of the biggest names.
> 
> @Gary, I am not a total bigot. If you could select me a couple of beans to buy and try from Steve, I will order them today. Take a free choice. DO not worry about the roast level but I do not like acidic coffee
> 
> herte is a question. What should coffee taste of? I guess we would all say coffee, so when we eat that tiramasu for example, we say, wow, that coffee is nice......not, that coffee cuts accross the mascarpone with mouthfeel and taste of plums leading to greengages


Just a thought , the newly qualified doctor will be fresh , have a fresh perspective have fresh ideas where as the old doctor although with lots of experience may have thoughts of his retirement rounds of golf and the best way to prune his roses.


----------



## 4085

And have forgotten more than the new kid on the block ever knew. Ok, you pass your driving test, are you able to go and drive racing cars


----------



## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> herte is a question. What should coffee taste of? I guess we would all say coffee, so when we eat that tiramasu for example, we say, wow, that coffee is nice......not, that coffee cuts accross the mascarpone with mouthfeel and taste of plums leading to greengages


A particular coffee should taste of what that particular coffee tastes of. Coffee is a component in Tiramisu, it's probably not the best way to evaluate the flavour of the coffee itself.

Perhaps you'll tell us the origin of the "coffee" in a coffee Revel, or Walnut whip? That's kind of the idea of specialty coffee, keep the roast to a range where origin character is still present. The darker you go, the more this gives way to more generic flavours. You seem to want specialty coffee that fails to meet specialty expectations? Why do you buy Jampit?


----------



## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> And have forgotten more than the new kid on the block ever knew. Ok, you pass your driving test, are you able to go and drive racing cars


You don't need a DVLA driving licence to race in motorsport.


----------



## coffeechap

Wow!

A thing of note, we will always be divided on this forum as to who likes medium/light and who likes medium/dark, kinda like people who prefer white wine to red. However I have tasted a fair few coffees in my time from different roasters , some of which are exceptionally skilled and passionate and some of which are less so. As my equipment level improved so did my taste expectations in coffee, I used to be a dark bean lover as it cut through the milk easily which was my predominant way of drinking coffee, I now however have the equipment and skills to extract the best out of a roasted bean that I buy.

Where is my taste preference now? Well it is with a perfectly roasted bean, if a roaster has taken time and care to establish what can draw out the best from a bean then I am prepared to give that bean a go. I will look at the tasting notes and shot recommendations and see what I can get, I will play with different parameters to see if I can improve that recipe (to my liking), but most of all I will try to ENJOY the process and end product.

We are manipulated by whatever we are prepared to be manipulated by, therefore marketing is a huge industry that seeks to extract our money, but we can always choose to purchase whatever we want, so if I think I am not going to like a coffee from a coffee shop, (usually based on what I see about the preparation and not the roast profile) then I walk away, if I see the witch craft at work and someone who cares then I will give it a go.


----------



## coffeechap

With regard to the ability of roasters, sure something's come with experience and an experienced roaster is worth their weight in gold, however they sometimes become set in their ways and need a fresh input to innovate the product. We have some younger members on here who's ability to extract the best from a bean is outstanding, they haven't been into coffee for that long but it doesn't necessarily mean they should not be respected. They goes with roasting, some of these people are stretching out into the world of speciality coffee roasting and are influencing the roaster, setting up partnerships even striking out on their own and producing knockout coffee. Age doesn't mean they can't roast!!!


----------



## 4085

Ok, go pass your HGV or whatever it is called now, then see if anyone will give you a job, but I suspect you are just trying to be clever and corner me with my own words. Seems you do not understand the word literally. Are you an OCD sufferer with lots of little boxes to put things in Mark?

And I thought it was only Americans who did not understand irony!


----------



## 4085

Age does not mean they cannot roast, cc, nor that they can. Callum, who you refer to is a gifted young man, but it has to be said they are a lot of talentless inexperienced young people with nice website etc, who a re not good roasters. It is easy, if the end product is good, then age does not enter the equation....if it is bad, then it will be one of the things thought of as to why


----------



## DavecUK

The Systemic Kid said:


> All this mention of 'marketing' - 80% of new products that come to market with heavy marketing budgets behind them disappear from view pretty quickly inspite of being extensively tested in focus groups and the like. The advertising in the coffee industry is focused on instant where the real profit is. Third wave coffee roasters/outlets have sprung up, in part, as a counterpoint to the mega outlets like Starbucks and offer something different. If customers don't like what they offer, they will vote with their feet.


.

1. SCAA (Marketing)

2. Costa, Starbucks, Nero adverts, Billboards TV etc.. (Marketing)

3. Nespresso and similar adverts, Billboardm, TV (Marketing)

4. Advertorials and so called articles in magazines on coffee, roasting artisan etc..

5. Supermarkets, branding, product placement

6. Retailers, machines grinders coffee

7. etc..

The world is full of advertising...some in your face, like the instant coffee ads, others more subtle....this shared Zeitgeist for coffee, the coffee shop, fresh roasting, micro or artisan roastery, machines grinders etc..didn't all just spring from nowhere.. We've been carefully marketed to, to want this stuff, to strive to achieve better. Nothing wrong in that, it's simply the way the world works.



MWJB said:


> This "marketing", where is it? If you're talking about a few banners on a forum with less than 10000 members (way less than 0.1% penetration of the coffee consumers in the UK) & word of mouth recommendations from said members, it appears to otherwise be absent from the marketplace?
> 
> If you have to hunt it down on niche forums is it really that pervasive?


It's in all the things above Mark. The effect of a forum like this is relatively insignificant. Also the banners and advertising you talk of, at the moment represent a pretty small segment of the market. I would guess the market is dominated by. Instand, Nespresso, Coffee shops, cheap machines and supermarket beans.


----------



## DavidBondy

dfk41 said:


> And I thought it was only Americans who did not understand irony!


Blackadder: *Baldrick, have you no idea what "irony" is?*

Baldrick: *Yes, it's like "goldy" and "bronzy" only it's made out of iron.*


----------



## Thecatlinux

Where are the youth from the past?


----------



## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> if you could select me a couple of beans to buy and try from steve, i will order them today. Take a free choice. Do not worry about the roast level but i do not like acidic coffee


indian bibi coorg washed hdt catuvai

guatemala finca san sebastian natural bourbon


----------



## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> Ok, go pass your HGV or whatever it is called now, then see if anyone will give you a job, but I suspect you are just trying to be clever and corner me with my own words. Seems you do not understand the word literally. Are you an OCD sufferer with lots of little boxes to put things in Mark?
> 
> And I thought it was only Americans who did not understand irony!


Lewis Hamilton started his car racing career before being old enough to drive on the roads, there have been national motorcycle championship race winners who did not hold full road motorcycle licences. The various licences are issued by different bodies for differing activeties, independent of each other.

I can only respond to the things you write, if they are different to what you mean, that's for you to sort out.

So add to hit list:

young doctors (in favour of forgetful old doctors - whichever doctor I'd see I'd hope it was one that remembered as much as possible).

Autosport competitors who are too lazy to pass their full road tests, irrespective of ability in the sport.

...keep 'em coming..


----------



## Obnic

coffeechap said:


> Where is my taste preference now? Well it is with a perfectly roasted bean, if a roaster has taken time and care to establish what can draw out the best from a bean then I am prepared to give that bean a go. I will look at the tasting notes and shot recommendations and see what I can get, I will play with different parameters to see if I can improve that recipe (to my liking), but most of all I will try to ENJOY the process and end product.


Yeah. What he said.


----------



## 4085

garydyke1 said:


> indian bibi coorg washed hdt catuvai
> 
> guatemala finca san sebastian natural bourbon


Ordered.............


----------



## MWJB

MWJB said:


> So add to hit list:
> 
> young doctors (in favour of forgetful old doctors - whichever doctor I'd see I'd hope it was one that remembered as much as possible).
> 
> Autosport competitors who are too lazy to pass their full road tests, irrespective of ability in the sport.
> 
> ...keep 'em coming..


Apologies forgot irony impaired Americans...any other nationalistic prejudices you care to air?


----------



## 4085

Mark, is irony truly lost on you?


----------



## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> Ordered.............


I predict this


----------



## 4085

Is the lady in the red dress, laughing at the fact she is next in command if William shatner dies?


----------



## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> Mark, is irony truly lost on you?


It's not irony though is it, it's just you bitching about things you can easily avoid & need not have the slightest bit of impact on your life...sorry, I mean 'expressing opinions that we are all free to have and are all right in the context of opinions & free speech', unless that free speech & opinion clashes with your conspiracy fantasies (because that's "bitching" as you don't agree with the sentiment).

...and you want to give me a lesson on irony?

Do I get a discount if I sign up for the module on hypocrisy at the same time?


----------



## 4085

Just as well you are not a fish Mark.......irony, hypocrisy......if thats your opinion, it matters me not. When you rule the world, I will listen to you.......till then, I will carry on being me.......anyway, thats me out of this thread now as it is way off track


----------



## Thecatlinux

MWJB said:


> It's not irony though is it, it's just you bitching about things you can easily avoid & need not have the slightest bit of impact on your life...sorry, I mean 'expressing opinions that we are all free to have and are all right in the context of opinions & free speech', unless that free speech & opinion clashes with your conspiracy fantasies (because that's "bitching" as you don't agree with the sentiment).
> 
> ...and you want to give me a lesson on irony?
> 
> Do I get a discount if I sign up for the module on hypocrisy at the same time?


Now thats irony!


----------



## Obnic

@charliej re wine snobbery

You're being mischievous.









There will always be Jeremy Clarksonesque hyperbole in journalism and there will always be over-enthusiastic incompetents in any arena but that is not a basis for putting the whole area in a box and shutting the lid.

The coffee flavour wheel and the wine flavour wheel tell a story of equal sophistication and complexity. The coffee growers and roasters are exactly analogous in passion and skill to the grape grower and the oenologist. The results in both cases can be as cruel and fickle as they can be delicious.

I'd like to see really great coffee become more accessible to everyone, just as really great wine has. I think it's a problem that a small number of people understand coffee and the vast majority think pre-ground supermarket dust is good.

Agreed, 'hovercraft oil' nonsense doesn't help anyone but inverted snobbery isn't the answer either. Below, my preferred version of the wine wheel - makes it nicely accessible.










And here's the coffee wheel - looks a lot like the traditional wine wheel.








.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> And have forgotten more than the new kid on the block ever knew. Ok, you pass your driving test, are you able to go and drive racing cars


Older GPs are more likely to persist with in prescribing treatments that are no longer first choice which is one of the reasons the National Institute for Care Excellence was set up.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> Now thats irony!


It's like 10000 spoons when all you need is a knife ....

Oh wait that isn't irony either , it's just a cak song


----------



## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> It's like 10000 spoons when all you need is a knife ....
> 
> Oh wait that isn't irony either , it's just a cak song


10000 spoons ...... One knife ........... Thats got to be .........


----------



## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> 10000 spoons ...... One knife ........... Thats got to be .........


No it's not numberwang


----------



## The Systemic Kid

DavecUK said:


> . The world is full of advertising...some in your face, like the instant coffee ads, others more subtle....this shared Zeitgeist for coffee, the coffee shop, fresh roasting, micro or artisan roastery, machines grinders etc..didn't all just spring from nowhere.. We've been carefully marketed to, to want this stuff, to strive to achieve better. Nothing wrong in that, it's simply the way the world works.


There isn't a single coffee market Dave - it's splintered into many sections. The big conglomerates in the instant section (by far the largest section of the total market and the most lucrative) aim their advertising accordingly - they aren't targeting or interested in the artisan/third wave area of the market which is miniscule in comparison.

The OP opined 'So, which stupid bugger decided that all coffee shops cater for those people who like light beans (and getting lighter) with all sorts of other third wave Bohemian nuances?'.

No amount of clever marketing will sell a product people don't like. Third wave coffee roasters/shops occupy a tiny niche in the overall coffee shop market offering something different. If customers don't like their offerings, they will go elsewhere.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Thecatlinux said:


> Now thats irony!


No - it's Paul Daniels!


----------



## Thecatlinux

The Systemic Kid said:


> No - it's Paul Daniels!


i used the picture of paul to ensure that fellow members knew that I was saying it in a light heated way,

if it was irony i wanted to portray I would have used this photo. However i think others may have been confused.


----------



## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> It's like 10000 spoons when all you need is a knife ....
> 
> Oh wait that isn't irony either , it's just a cak song


At least you'd have plenty of material for the spoon grinder


----------



## Drewster

Mrboots2u said:


> I predict this


You predict an old ham in a wig???

A stereo typical Wussian wid a speech impeiwent??

Or a token black female?? (a redshirt that didn't die in her first appearance)


----------



## Mrboots2u

Don't diss the Shatner ,,,never diss the Shatner


----------



## Thecatlinux

Mrboots2u said:


> I predict this


have they just tried your coffee Mrboots ??


----------



## Mrboots2u

Thecatlinux said:


> have they just tried your coffee Mrboots ??


Predicable , very predictable ............


----------



## CamV6

I'm bored of this now. Can someone please post a picture of Debbie McGhee in stockings. That really would be potentially ironic


----------



## Drewster

CamV6 said:


> I'm bored of this now. Can someone please post a picture of Debbie *McGhee* in stockings. That really would be potentially ironic


Do you mean an oiled up Debbie Mcgee?


----------



## CamV6

Yes that's the one


----------



## 4085




----------



## CamV6

Thank you David but in the same way as light roasts are utterly unacceptable and unsatisfying and symptomatic of o world in which all standards have been dumbed down to suit the herd mentality, tights, as worn by Ms McGee in those photos are utterly utterly unacceptable. The stockings are non negotiable and I'll fight anyone who dares to say different


----------



## michaelg

The Systemic Kid said:


> Older GPs are more likely to persist with in prescribing treatments that are no longer first choice which is one of the reasons the National Institute for Care Excellence was set up.


So true, I had more frustration with old, stuck in their ways GP's and it took a younger (say mid-to-late 30's) doctor to prescribe something off-label which did the trick. Agree with above posts - a combination of experience and new ideas in any enterprise makes for the best outcome.


----------



## CamV6

No no no we've moved on to Debbie McGee in stockings now. Do try and keep up


----------



## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


>


Never knew Debbie McGee was in Guns N' Roses


----------



## CamV6

Axel Hose?


----------



## Thecatlinux

CamV6 said:


> Axel Hose?


and then we end up here


----------



## Phil104

CamV6 said:


> Axel Hose?


 Rock and droll?

I have just spent longer than is good for me reading this thread - on holiday in the Languedoc as it happens (see the jammy red of an earlier post) where we have just been to Chateau de Gourgazaud and spent not long enough tasting wine and spending more money than we had intended - all because we had lunch and a bottle of Viognier from said Chateau, which was wonderful enough for us to want to seek out the producer. Interestingly the tasting comments were about the terroir, the size of the parcel of grapes, how long aged in a barrel or not, the grape combination, the rough temperature to drink it at, interesting stories about the names of some of the wines*, and finally - did we like the taste more or less than the one before...

A few nights ago I spoke with an English guy now living out here who is a master cocktail maker. His description of mixing cocktails had many similarities with discussions about the taste of coffee and the taste of wine. He was describing an art, a craft, skill, experience, training, learning from others (including customers) and probably some genetically endowed sensory advantages (I find it very hard to discern smell or taste).

I have written this more or less as a diary entry because it seemed that my experience today picked up a number of the themes in this thread. Overall, I'm glad that I read it.


----------



## michaelg

The Systemic Kid said:


> Never knew Debbie McGee was in Guns N' Roses


Looks to me like she's doing a Slash


----------



## CallumT

Maybe it's a sign dfk. Good to say we have stuff to talk about other than roast colour and to have yet another go at one of the most friendly approachable roasters in the UK.


----------



## hotmetal

She looks far too matt and is displaying a distinct lack of clarified Kerrygold butter. This cannot be the real McGhee.


----------



## Xpenno

Mrboots2u said:


> It's like 10000 spoons when all you need is a knife ....
> 
> Oh wait that isn't irony either , it's just a cak song


Or is it ironic that the song isn't actually ironic....


----------



## Dylan

Mrboots2u said:


> It's like 10000 spoons when all you need is a knife ....
> 
> Oh wait that isn't irony either , it's just a cak song


Dont tell me you dont sing along when it comes on the radio in your car Boots


----------



## 4085

I can promise you he does not!!


----------



## Xpenno

I drank some coffee earlier that tasted like blueberries and sherbert and I loved it, WTF! I never thought I'd say that when I first started drinking the stuff all those years ago and I'm not talking like a wine snob where most of the time it just tastes like wine to me, whether pleasing or not, this is in your face blueberry, clear as day.

Anyway, I personally wouldn't walk out of a coffee shop just because of the brand of beans that they serve up. I might decide to never go back after tasting a coffee there however that may not be as a direct result of the bean or roast profile. I've had great shots of Has Bean from cafes and I've had awful, I've had great tasting shots of a dark roasted allpress and had awful, I've had great tasting shots of a dark roast union as well as some piss poor. I would say that if you get the right barista (i.e. one who gives a monkey's) a quality bean and a good grinder/machine combo then you stand a good chance of getting a great tasting, balanced shot no matter what the bean's roast profile.

I have to add to this that over the past couple of weeks I've been without a coffee machine and have relied on espresso from local shops. On the whole I've been massively disappointed with the resulting shots. Last weekend I had 8 or so espressos whilst out and about, I had everything from light to dark roast beans and only one stood out as being great, the rest were poor, I even sent one back and when the second one tasted just as bad I just gave up. I can tell you that this was Barista error and not the roaster as I've had amazing shots in the same shop, with that exact bean. Anyway, I now have a machine at home again and I'm so glad because the coffee I make works really well for me (including the blueberry fizz I had earlier). If it doesn't work then I can affect one or more variables and make it work for me, that's a luxury you don't get when you go into a shop, you are in the hands of the barista and their taste preference and I personally really enjoy this aspect of home coffee. I will say that some beans are just not for me, I had some with a tasting note of liquorice a few weeks back and I wasn't a fan but I wouldn't write the roaster off because of that, I just wouldn't buy that bean from them again.

Why are there more of these kind of shops serving acidic coffee? My guess is that it's simply the fact that there are more coffee shops in general and it's harder to find a key differentiator to separate yourself from a Starbucks or Costa. If you serve dark roast italian style beans then why would the average person who doesn't drink speciality coffee choose you over a big chain? Yes your coffee might be fresher, better quality etc.. but it's harder to see it as something different and therefore a choice that they have to make. I do believe that the majority of these shops are started up by people who are genuinely excited by this style of coffee and I also believe that there is a market for it just as there is for more traditional tasting speciality coffee, I just think that the latter is harder to differentiate it from the big boys. The important thing here is that we all have different tastes and the number of shops that serve a particular type of coffee is never going to be reflected by that. Speciality coffee lovers (i.e. most of us lot on here) are fans of a minority market that is currently overshadowed by multinationals who only care about bottomline, they dodge tax, screw the coffee farmers on price on an already cheap ingredient and people love it (myself included at one time). Maybe it's the bigger guys who you should have a beef with as they are crowding the market place on the dark roast?

In summary, you know what you like better than anyone else but the beans from one roaster can vary massively in flavour profile and acidity level. You aren't ever going to get a Java Jampit from HB, but you can get low acidity, chocolate, nuts and some of the elements that you tend to find in a darker roast, it doesn't mean you will automatically like them, but you never know. Shops that serve a bean you know and love, with the wrong barista/kit can turn it into a horrific experience. In the end a few years back I could never have imagined coffee tasting like the one I had today but I'm glad I kept an open mind to it because it continually blows me away on a daily basis.

Apologies for the long and no doubt badly written, disjointed post.


----------



## Drewster

Xpenno said:


> ...... The thoughts of a afficinado/nutter (delete as required).......
> 
> *Apologies for the long and no doubt badly written, disjointed post.*


Spence never apologise for passion!!


----------



## 4085

Hello, my name is David, and I am a bigot......but, I have bought the beans Gary recommended from HasBean. I will have my lever machine back by the time they are ready to drink (Gary, recommended rest time?) and I will report back with truthful findings. To save wasting them, can Gary recommend a general weight/dose


----------



## Drewster

You've got a big gut!?!?!

I'd recommend you lay off the doughnuts!


----------



## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> Hello, my name is David, and I am a bigot......but, I have bought the beans Gary recommended from HasBean. I will have my lever machine back by the time they are ready to drink (Gary, recommended rest time?) and I will report back with truthful findings. To save wasting them, can Gary recommend a general weight/dose


I picked two which I think would be more what you would enjoy, the brief being less acidity more thick, rich, texture and depth. Its hard to pick only 2 when there are over 90 in our green bean store.

I tried the Indian yesterday, 5 days after roasting and it was drinking very well. I was pulling 20 -> 42/45 on the EK. Using a conventional grinder i'd use it the same way as you use jam pit and see what you think, perhaps run a touch more water through but not loads more, it extracts quite easily.

Try 18g into 26-30g in 25-30 sec

The Guat natural is more a wild-card selection, perhaps rest this one 7 days minimum. Its not acidic but has definite fruit and funk. its also bold , punchy earthy base notes and its also one of my favourite bases for milk drinks this year. This one I would extend the shot time a little and pull a bit little longer.

Try 18.5g into 30-34g in 28-32 sec


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## garydyke1

garydyke1 said:


> I picked two which I think would be more what you would enjoy, the brief being less acidity more thick, rich, texture and depth. Its hard to pick only 2 when there are over 90 in our green bean store.
> 
> I tried the Indian yesterday, 5 days after roasting and it was drinking very well. I was pulling 20 -> 42/45 on the EK. Using a conventional grinder i'd use it the same way as you use jam pit and see what you think, perhaps run a touch more water through but not loads more, it extracts quite easily.
> 
> Try 18g into 26-30g in 25-30 sec
> 
> The Guat natural is more a wild-card selection, perhaps rest this one 7 days minimum. Its not acidic but has definite fruit and funk. its also bold , punchy earthy base notes and its also one of my favourite bases for milk drinks this year. This one I would extend the shot time a little and pull a bit little longer.
> 
> Try 18.5g into 30-34g in 28-32 sec


Have you tried these yet David?


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## 4085

No, they came 2 days ago. Will open tomorrow and report back!


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com

Interesting thread. I may be naive but it's really hard to see what marketing has to do with any of this stuff. Of course there are people taking the 'traditional' and 'modern' approaches in loads of different businesses and people may tend to align themselves with either the old masters or the innovators, probably linked to personality.

For me though, roasting itself is a really personal thing. It's about finding beans you see something magical in and then trying to get the very best out of them. Sometimes they come out darker, sometimes lighter - it can only be dictated by the bean itself.

When I started, I didn't really know what I was doing so I just tried to replicate Square Mile profiles (for example). As my skill and my tastes developed, I started to develop my own style (which really just means that I started to figure out how to get the beans roasted to my taste). So now the beans are (generally) a bit more developed than they were in the early days I guess, as that's probably where my preference lies. Our beans are firmly in medium territory I guess although I have some difficulty with the whole light/medium/dark thing.

One of the most important (and obvious in retrospect) things I've learned about roasting is that there are lots of ways to get to a finished profile. Roast colour is not as important as I thought it was. Different flavours and qualities can be accentuated through the profile. The beans we have at the moment are pretty much the same colour but one is roasted in just over 10 minutes, the other in over 13. That's because the roast is developed in completely different ways.

I think it's pretty pointless to market yourself as a roaster of light or dark beans. I just have to do what I do and hope that other people enjoy what I'm doing as much as I do. It's frustrating. It's easy to understand that people need to know what you do (light or dark) but it's a shame that some people never taste your coffee because they have preconceptions about what they'll get.

Finally, I don't think age matters at all. Since I started working with Callum, I've learned huge amounts about coffee. It's about attitude. Wanting to learn and a commitment to progression. There's a difference between having 20 years experience and having one years experience that's been run 20 times.


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## The Systemic Kid

Well put Lee. Not so much a case of either or - more both/and.


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## CamV6

dfk41 said:


> No, they came 2 days ago. Will open tomorrow and report back!


I'm looking forward to hearing back. So, what's the verdict Mr Kidd ?


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## 4085

I am cracking them open today, after I have done the housework etc etc.........I actually got blueberries from the DSOL so I am quite hopeful!


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## CamV6

Ooh Dave Kidd in a pinny with a fluffy duster. Now there's a mental image to conjure with !


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## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> I am cracking them open today, after I have done the housework etc etc.........I actually got blueberries from the DSOL so I am quite hopeful!


If you'd said you wanted blueberries i would have recommended this instead :

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/collections/africa/products/ethiopia-yirgacheffe-konga-sedie-natural


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## 4085

I did not want blueberries! I was just saying that even my poor palate could identify them......ooppss, theres the doorbell and it looks like a parcel delivery. I wonder what it could be


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## CamV6

Oversized French maid's outfit?


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> I did not want blueberries! I was just saying that even my poor palate could identify them......ooppss, theres the doorbell and it looks like a parcel delivery. I wonder what it could be


What's wrong with blueberries?


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## Spazbarista

I love blueberries but I haven't had any for a while. Harrar was my usual source but nobody is stocking them anymore. Not looking good for next year either, Short shots told me that brokers aren't stocking them either.


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## garydyke1

Spazbarista said:


> I love blueberries but I haven't had any for a while. Harrar was my usual source but nobody is stocking them anymore. Not looking good for next year either, Short shots told me that brokers aren't stocking them either.


Then you know what to do


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## 4085

Well, I am now able to try the Hasbean beans.......ging to open them now


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## garydyke1

Shoot for the Indian first , the guat might benefit from another day or two rest


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## Spazbarista

garydyke1 said:


> Then you know what to do


Remember what happened to the last HB beans I had?









It would take quite a lot for HB to regain my custom, and that is from somebody who was buying from them when they first hit the internet.


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## 4085

garydyke1 said:


> Shoot for the Indian first , the guat might benefit from another day or two rest


I went the other way around of course! The Guat need a bit longer as the extraction was a bit bubbly, but, as frys would say, full of eastern promise! The first shot was slightly tight on grind. The second I left the gring the same and tamped lighter (nutated) and got 28 from 16 over 27 seconds. No point in saying much as they need longer. Will try the Indian soon!


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## 4085

Well, I have finally managed to get the grind dots onto the M3, so now have some points of reference to go by! I opened the Indian from HB and was presented with anearly medium large sort of bean. I dialled up 3 notches and pulled a shot. Immediately pale 'water' started to come out followed by te rst of a proper shot. It was not far away from a weight time perspective, so I notched back a furthr dot and tamped a bit harder. 16 gms in gave me approximately 26 out over 29 seconds. Looked fine, nice crema, small sip......not acidic but very bright, hint of gingery spice. In with the milk, as a Cortado, so thats a one to one basis and the espresso was lost in the milk. I am going to leave it another few days before going back to it as it was only roasted on the 4th. Certainly darker beans benefit from longer resting times so I am hoping these will as well.

And the reference dots work a treat!


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## destcc

dfk41 said:


> Well, I am now able to try the Hasbean beans.......ging to open them now


beautiful machine


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## CamV6

Dare I ask how you got on with these beans in the end David?


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## 4085

Well, I tried them several times, but for my palate, I could get absolutely nothing from them I am afraid. I am sure that the beans are spot on and roasted well, nd do exactly what they are supposed to, but, where one mans meat is another mans poison...........I will gladly receive samples from HB if ever they feel the need to want to try and convert me! I used to buy their product on a regular basis in the past.


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## CamV6

David pm me your address and I'll send you a bag of the Tanzania sell an to try out


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## 4085

CAm, thats a kind offer. Just for clarity, what should I expect from bruised raspberry!


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> Just for clarity, what should I expect from bruised raspberry!


High pitched voice??


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## Charliej

dfk41 said:


> CAm, thats a kind offer. Just for clarity, what should I expect from bruised raspberry!


David,

I can highly recommend the Has Bean Uganda Kinone beans, you'll love them, see my post in the what's in your cup thread, the roast is anything but light and this has actually proved to be one of my favourite coffees of the year so far.


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