# The 40 second shot



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

In a completely non-argumentative way, does the above really exist? I mean, back in the day, the rule of thumb was loosely, if a shot was much under or over 30 seconds then it was either under or over extracted. Since this, fables have surfaced, around the word tasty, suddenly anything goes. People are pulling tasty 40, 50 and 60 second shots......if a shot is not prepared correctly, ir too much/too little coffee, tamp is wrong, grind is wrong then the output must be wrong. So, how does someone intentionally pull a 40 second shot on a nonprogrammable machine? Or, is this just another bout of coffee bollocks?


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

I regularly pull shots that are close to or over 40s eg with the latest compass mystery mk8 a 1:3 will take me over 40.....tastes good so I don't know what to say

Why can't you have one over 40

Or is the implication that my taste buds are shot?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jj-x-ray said:


> I regularly pull shots that are close to or over 40s eg with the latest compass mystery mk8 a 1:3 will take me over 40.....tastes good so I don't know what to say
> 
> Why can't you have one over 40
> 
> Or is the implication that my taste buds are shot?


No implication of anything matey! But having been around coffee for years,the attitude is completely changing. What used to be yesterdays newspaper is now not tomorrows fish and chip paper......I just wonder if I can ask directly, how @DavecUK in his video targeted a 40 second 40 gm output shot.......even he will admit that in older written instructions sent out with machines and in general discussion, the old rule used to be 30 seconds as an absolute maximum


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Shot times & brew times vary with grinder & bean. This is normal. The output relates more to the quantity of drink produced than it does to the time it takes to make.

Let's say you're average shot time is 30s, then 2/3 of your shots could be 25-35s, outliers could be 20-40s.

Your grinder, tamper & machine do specific tasks, but they can't really do much about the physical make up of the bean you use, mechanically speaking these might present different resistances against the brew water, yet still produce a reasonably similar result.

If your shots are 25s & a strength & balance you like then I don't see why you would want to set out to make a 40s shot, or vice versa.

Illy describes espresso as being a shot pulled in 15-50s.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I would agree with all of that Mark, but my taste buds are not that discerning, so I wonder how you decide to go from 30 to 40 seconds with a bean, presuming your tamp does not change and you substantially change the grind setting. How many people on here really have the ability to detect those changes


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> I would agree with all of that Mark, but my taste buds are not that discerning, so I wonder how you decide to go from 30 to 40 seconds with a bean, presuming your tamp does not change and you substantially change the grind setting. How many people on here really have the ability to detect those changes


I wouldn't decide to do it, I would do what I normally do re. dose, prep & tamp, then maybe a new bean, or different grinder would dictate how long it took to get my target weight & a good flavour balance. And I'd live with it, rather than fight the tide.

I guess we have to assume people here make coffee they like and can tell the difference when they don't like it.


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

I would qualify that I am still a relative newcomer to "proper" coffee and am still wrapping my head around what is known Vs my own limited experience....

I have stopped using time as an indicator of quality tho.....the time is the time


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It's really about flow rate and ramp rate. This will directly vary the time. Also if the shot is still seems to be extracting well and tasting good keep going. Over the years I have experimented with tighter grinds and slower flows, as long as the perfusion seems even, then why not


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> It's really about flow rate and ramp rate. This will directly vary the time. Also if the shot is still seems to be extracting well and tasting good keep going. Over the years I have experimented with tighter grinds and slower flows, as long as the perfusion seems even, then why not


But what is you do not have a profiling machine and are relatively new?


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## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Over the time I have had this L1 and usually when changing beans I have had shots run long like this. Before I would set about immediately changing the grind to shorten this time but these days I try the result first after finding one of these was super flavoursome and sweet.

The result has been that in my book these can be even better this way.

Bear in mind I have smokers taste buds, use a lever and my favourite beans to date are Guji Highland (strong flavour) which seem to go well @ 45s for me.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

I take on board peoples advice if I ask for it and they have been kind enough to share their experiences with me, but I've never been one for sticking to the rules just for the sake of it and have done quite a lot of experimenting with espresso particularly. What I found was to my tastes, darker roasts were sometimes better upto 40 seconds but could never really get on with short extractions of less than 22 or so seconds.

I've found light roasts much more picky. Anything over 30 or under 25 isn't usually that good for me.

After all these years and fads I still believe that 26 to 30 is the bet starting point, but it's just that, a starting point.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

I'm fewer years in than others, but still need to fix one thing otherwise my head will explode with the sheer number of variable involved in this damned hobby.

30 ish seconds stands in my book.

Much longer, and it takes too long to get the requisite number of shots into me before I leave the house for work.

I aligned the burrs on my E37s on Friday. Result was the grind setting I had come to rely on where massively out. First two shots on Saturday were 90s then 60s. They were both just drinkable, but not my best. I wouldn't aim that long again, plus took what felt like ages to reach the volume. I recon i should have left them to run to a longer ratio, but it was enough to think about trying to adjust the grind to get back on parameters again.

I haven't been able to work out what which beans should be left to run longer.

Presumably, on considering, a lighter roast? The theory being the chemicals are harder to extract, so a longer contact time will allow more flavours to transfer to the water?

Hit me up the theory and I'm keen to lean more.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

rob177palmer said:


> I haven't been able to work out what which beans should be left to run longer.
> 
> Presumably, on considering, a lighter roast? The theory being the chemicals are harder to extract, so a longer contact time will allow more flavours to transfer to the water?
> 
> Hit me up the theory and I'm keen to lean more.


The beans that run longer in time, will just run longer, you won't need to make them.

Assuming the light roast & dark roasts you are talking about are normal, not charcoal, not under-developed, there probably won't be much difference. Origin could make more difference.

If you under-extract a dark roast it can be less face puckeringly sour than if you do a light roast, but if you're getting them both balanced then there might not be any difference.

If there is a difference, you could pull the dark roast to a shorter brew ratio, the lighter roast to a longer brew ratio. Dark roasts grind up finer at the same grinder setting, so again, the swings & roundabouts of it might still mean they overlap.

Time isn't really a variable as in something you deliberately change, grind & brew ratio are. At the same grind setting, putting more water through the puck will extract the solids more easily than keeping shots borderline feasible at the short end & trying to do to all with grind.

I find a ratio where the light roasts (I'm talking light filter roasts here) extract past sourness & stick to that. I'd rather my coffee was tasty, if a little weak (I don't add milk, or more water after pulling the shot). Then, if I have a darker roast, that seems flat, dull, or silty/powdery mouthfeel, I'll not change grind by much (if at all) and see if pulling less liquid out makes it more enjoyable. Like most folk I can't change pump pressure, or tweak flow rate, or temp & I keep everything else the same.


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## ValeTudoGuy (Aug 20, 2018)

This might be a stupid question that is answered multiple times all over the place, but having pulled my first ever espresso only yesterday and having done it to a weight rater than time.... Do I start timing from when I press the button or from when the coffee starts to run?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

From when you press or lift the lever.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I "almost" wish I had not posted the video and carried on quietly making great coffee my own way, honed over decades.....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> I "almost" wish I had not posted the video and carried on quietly making great coffee my own way, honed over decades.....


Grumpy old git....LOL It was the very fact that you did post it that prompted me. I know that you know how to make coffee, fine tune etc......but, when advice given out to people is based on something being tasty, I scratch my head and wonder what the flip they are talking about. What I find tasty and you find tasty will differ. Can two coffees made with 30 second and 40 second pours both be tasty? Some people like roast beef cooked rare, some like it well done. No doubt it is tasty to both.

I just struggle when someone asks a question about a shot, to be told if it is tasty then don't worry......it is a mis use of the word, like the word fresh for coffee beans. How many people have the ability to really fine tune a shot by decreasing the grind a couple of thousand microns, keeping the same tamp and on their non pressure profiling machine change the ramp


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Grumpy old git....LOL It was the very fact that you did post it that prompted me. I know that you know how to make coffee, fine tune etc......but, when advice given out to people is based on something being tasty, I scratch my head and wonder what the flip they are talking about. What I find tasty and you find tasty will differ. Can two coffees made with 30 second and 40 second pours both be tasty? Some people like roast beef cooked rare, some like it well done. No doubt it is tasty to both.
> 
> I just struggle when someone asks a question about a shot, to be told if it is tasty then don't worry......it is a mis use of the word, like the word fresh for coffee beans. How many people have the ability to really fine tune a shot by decreasing the grind a couple of thousand microns, keeping the same tamp and on their non pressure profiling machine change the ramp


I'm not sure what others can do, I tend to work with a specific machine and the way it wants to make coffee best. Certainly the Minima seems to shine at the 40 - 45 second mark. I'm not going to fight that, but simply roll with it.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There seems to be 2 "old" definitions of a single shot. Probably 30ml and 30 sec from the USA and 25ml and 25sec probably from Europe as 30ml is close to a USA fluid Oz.

I've mostly drunk MM to a huge extent since owning an espresso machine. ( DavecUK will love this ) I became used to the consistency a BE gave but have found more need for grinder setting variations on the fly since switching to flat burrs.

On the DB I set a fixed shot time of 30 sec on any bean. Then a baskets size and then a ratio. Due to grinder vagaries I have lately been trimming up shots via time if the ratio is significantly our from what I intended. Seems to be ok even pushing out to 35 sec, not so OK if pushed to 40 sec.

On MM I use 14g in and a 30 sec shot should give 35g out but taste wise I'm happy if it's over say 32. This removes the sweetness and slight earthy note the bean can have. On that basis I wouldn't argue if some one said I was over extracting. If I cut the shot time to 20 sec it goes sweet.

Personally I think over and under extraction is a myth perpetuated by farts. There are 2 Italian terms ristretto and lungo that in my view relate to water through the puck. So in one case I produce an MM ristretto and in another case a lungo. There is no rules on how that is done. As most commercial machines are volume related it suggests time should be used.

Standard basket sizes suggest other ratios. Light single 6g, standard single 7g, Ratio 1 to 4.17 and 1 to 3.57. Same for doubles.







I've yet to try ones pushed that far.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Grumpy old git....LOL It was the very fact that you did post it that prompted me. I know that you know how to make coffee, fine tune etc......but, when advice given out to people is based on something being tasty, I scratch my head and wonder what the flip they are talking about. What I find tasty and you find tasty will differ. Can two coffees made with 30 second and 40 second pours both be tasty? Some people like roast beef cooked rare, some like it well done. No doubt it is tasty to both.
> 
> I just struggle when someone asks a question about a shot, to be told if it is tasty then don't worry......it is a mis use of the word, like the word fresh for coffee beans. How many people have the ability to really fine tune a shot by decreasing the grind a couple of thousand microns, keeping the same tamp and on their non pressure profiling machine change the ramp


"Tasty" might mean different things to different people, sure, if we are talking about specific characteristics, but there is little point in this, because even if we all used the same grinder, the same machine, we would still use different coffee which will taste different for well pulled shots.

The use of tasty isn't mysterious, it is simple...make something you like the taste of. It's not saying, 'there is only one right way', which would be limiting. We generally try a lot of different coffees, we expect them to taste different, but we don't really want any of them to be nasty. If you don't like a funky, tropical fruit natural, shot time isn't going to turn it into a caramel & nuts Brazil.

It's not quite the same as the steak analogy, a blue steak is a blue steak, a charred steak is very different, easily identifiable by sight, smell & taste (not possible to pull a shot like this, because the process is finished and you have your outcome, but you can stop the steak when you see it over-browning). They are at the ends of the spectrum, a lot of folks won't like either, some folks will tolerate one or the other, a very few will love one or the other. Think more like a medium steak? A bigger percentage of folk will find it acceptable, even if it sometimes comes out medium rare.

In the big picture, one person's 30s shot can easily be the same as another's 40s shot. For example, I made 6 shots at the same grind setting, all 18g dose. One was 54g out in 19s and a little tart, just a little (for me). So next shot pulled longer at 64g this took 24s, tasted more balanced, tartness is gone. Great, I now want the next one to be 64g too, except this only took 19s again, but still the tartness that I wasn't keen on was gone. These 6 shots all tasted at least OK to me, but the worst of them took 26s, the best of them also took 26s, but in total the range was 7 seconds and this was the difference between the best & 2nd best.

Your difference in shot time can be way over +/-10% and still produce good shots (if you like the coffee you have in the first place).

A couple of thousand microns is 2mm, this isn't fine tuning, it's more like going from Turkish to coarse drip, or back again. Everyone who has made a cup of coffee a couple of times would recognise this. Pressure/flow profiling isn't going to fix this, unless you can use it to make a 250ml mug from 18g in a single shot (not an Americano)


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

My shots all seem to veer to 40-45s and they are the ones I always say, 'by, this is good'. Not very technical, I know!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

MildredM said:


> My shots all seem to veer to 40-45s and they are the ones I always say, 'by, this is good'. Not very technical, I know!


drinking a nice PNG right now and it took 43s... and "boy golly it tastes good"


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

It would be useful to know what attributes make a particular coffee taste better with a long pour as opposed to a quick pour and vice versa. At the moment it seems to be trial and error and taste.

Obviously long pre infusion times will skew the comparison as we're looking at different machine capabilities.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

lake_m said:


> It would be useful to know what attributes make a particular coffee taste better with a long pour as opposed to a quick pour and vice versa. At the moment it seems to be trial and error and taste.
> 
> Obviously long pre infusion times will skew the comparison as we're looking at different machine capabilities.


We are getting there.......the original point I was making is how can an inexperienced person possibly have the knowledge to make a tasty 35 to 95 second shot without it simply being wrongly extracted


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> We are getting there.......the original point I was making is how can an inexperienced person possibly have the knowledge to make a tasty 35 to *95* second shot without it simply being wrongly extracted


As usual you are throwing in straw men, stretching the issue into absurdity (2000micron grind adjustments, 95sec shots), to make a point that isn't worth making. You're contributing to the confusion, not reducing it.

To determine whether a shot is tasty, you put it in your mouth - if you like it, then it's extracted OK. Do the same thing again (grind, dose, prep & weight out), if takes a little more/less time & you still like it, then you don't have a problem.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> As usual you are throwing in straw men, stretching the issue into absurdity (2000micron grind adjustments, 95sec shots), to make a point that isn't worth making. You're contributing to the confusion, not reducing it.
> 
> To determine whether a shot is tasty, you put it in your mouth - if you like it, then it's extracted OK. Do the same thing again (grind, dose, prep & weight out), if takes a little more/less time & you still like it, then you don't have a problem.


Wrong, I am highlighting the absurdity of every question being answered by the stock phrase, 'is it tasty'./


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Wrong, I am highlighting the absurdity of every question being answered by the stock phrase, 'is it tasty'./


So what is your objective when making coffee? A time trial, or making a drink to enjoy?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> So what is your objective when making coffee? A time trial, or making a drink to enjoy?


Look Mark, as opposed to this being the usual farce where you forensically pick through my posts, lay off.....I am asking those, including you who dish out advice on a regular basis, how telling someone it is tasty therefore do not worry it a stupid answer. it may make sense too you with your ultra superior levels of knowledge but it is of no help ti a beginner who does not understand the various parameters involved in making a drink. hence the original question. I make a drink, drink it or not and then make a small adjustment based on many years of being involved with coffee


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Look Mark, as opposed to this being the usual farce where you forensically pick through my posts, lay off.....I am asking those, including you who dish out advice on a regular basis, how telling someone it is tasty therefore do not worry it a stupid answer. it may make sense too you with your ultra superior levels of knowledge but it is of no help ti a beginner who does not understand the various parameters involved in making a drink. hence the original question. I make a drink, drink it or not and then make a small adjustment based on many years of being involved with coffee


It was a simple & innocent enough question, if you don't make coffee to enjoy the taste, why do you make it?

So tell the beginners how to make a shot, tell them what you do, explain the various parameters & why they're important. Offer something up, rather than sniping from the sidelines. A blog would be a good idea if you can't stand the idea of people having different methods to you.

Lay off the ad hominem comments too, I make no comments about your knowledge (you ask, presumably out of interest, thus you get answers), or perceived superiority/inferiority. You make up bizarre, never discussed before, parameters for whatever reason, people can make their own conclusions about that.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I just try to get the best out of a bag of beans, which can be time wise any where between 25 -45 secs, generally somewhere in the middle. Shot time is usually accompanied with a whole load of other absurd parameters changes.

I suppose "Does it taste tasty?" is a whole lot politer than "does it taste like sh*te."


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I'll see you 40 seconds and raise you 240 seconds:






[The machine sensed something was awry when it eventually hit 240 and terminated the shot. I think this was the result of accidentally dosing 23.5g of decaf into an 18g basket. We tasted it, it was smokey and quite harsh but I've drunk worse]


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Must admit, I have pulled a few of those in my time......you always expect there pour to speed up as the puck becomes saturated, but sometimes it simply does not.....the good thing is though, mine are always undrinkable!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> Grumpy old git....LOL It was the very fact that you did post it that prompted me. I know that you know how to make coffee, fine tune etc......but, when advice given out to people is based on something being tasty, I scratch my head and wonder what the flip they are talking about. What I find tasty and you find tasty will differ. Can two coffees made with 30 second and 40 second pours both be tasty? Some people like roast beef cooked rare, some like it well done. No doubt it is tasty to both.
> 
> I just struggle when someone asks a question about a shot, to be told if it is tasty then don't worry......it is a mis use of the word, like the word fresh for coffee beans. How many people have the ability to really fine tune a shot by decreasing the grind a couple of thousand microns, keeping the same tamp and on their non pressure profiling machine change the ramp


Maybe too much "experience" develops a taste for crap coffee. I'm pretty sure it does in many cases actually. It's a bit like people who often eat real Indian curries. I used to do that 2 o 3 times a week but stopped so there is hope for you. These days I couldn't manage to eat what I did then. Some could do the same with coffee and later start to enjoy it properly again. Or of course continue doing what are basically silly things to do.

My approach on the DB is to stick to 30 sec but it wasn't on the BE. Just volume on that. I didn't even use a timer. The best aim IMHO is to go for the taste the bean should have not shoot for fruit notes etc so all tend to taste the same. What has surprised me is that ratio has more to do with that than anything else maybe followed by strength. Some beans are so strong there is no possibility what so ever of appreciating subtleties. Manheling can be a good example of that. Then go from there if needed to get a drink that is enjoyable.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Let's clear up the last post shall we.

What If a bean or coffee is fruity, then that's what is should taste of.

Ratio sets strength, that's what it does first and foremost.

Beans are not strong, some have more strident taste characteristics than others, some are roasted in a way to emphasis a particular taste.

It is trite to say but yes all that matters is taste in the cup.

Often people grip religiously onto a certain set of numbers, let's say in this case 30 seconds, as they struggle to understand if they like what's in the cup or not.

There is often criticism that people adhere to 1:2 ratio without exploring adjustments thst might suit their tastes.

This should be applied to time also.

Ultimately the gear people are using, and hopefully the quality of coffee and change in knowledge means that alot of the "givens", peopke would have thrown out are not so relevant anymore.

What the best things newbies can do? Buy a lump of quality coffee, use some basic techniques, and explore how adjustments to some variables effect the taste in the cup.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Maybe too much "experience" develops a taste for crap coffee. I'm pretty sure it does in many cases actually.


That's a new one on me John. "Too much experience"...a bad thing. I wonder how far and wide you believe this theory extends?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> That's a new one on me John. "Too much experience"...a bad thing. I wonder how far and wide you believe this theory extends?


LOL

John

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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I would say 'too much "experience" ' leads to being more discerning in ALL things, surely.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

MildredM said:


> I would say 'too much "experience" ' leads to being more discerning in ALL things, surely.


Depends on what your experience is - someone could have learned things in a vacuum and have developed very poor technique, but they are experienced in the sense that they have been doing it a long time - albeit to a bad standard. This person might also be stuck in their ways and reluctant to take on other points of view given they see themselves as experienced.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

We get experienced baristas in for trial shifts sometimes who do things a certain way 'because that's how they were taught' - often pretty old school techniques or thinking which they're convinced are 'right' because that's what they know. They don't have knowledge acquired through asking why a lot and trying to understand different methods. Are they experienced? Yes. Would I want to hire them? No.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Their is a theory around deliberate practice - or research done around it. I used to assume that repeatedly doing a thing means we're improving but this suggests it's not the case, practicing a thing deliberately is more likely to lead to improvement - if you just get to a certain level and rinse and repeat you'll potentially even start to add bad habits in.

You may have seen somebody who has been driving their whole life and now are advanced in years. They aren't guaranteed to be the best driver by longevity alone.

I have just copied the image with the person's reference still in - I've heard this before. Sometimes it's linear ending in unconscious competence but the theory also goes eventually we pass from that stage back to unconscious incompetence - for instance when new laws or signs etc. come into force but we haven't been made to learn them.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

That means I am an expert barista ... as I drink my 5th God shot of the day ..


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

jeebsy said:


> Depends on what your experience is - someone could have learned things in a vacuum and have developed very poor technique, but they are experienced in the sense that they have been doing it a long time - albeit to a bad standard. This person might also be stuck in their ways and reluctant to take on other points of view given they see themselves as experienced.


I agree, of course. I was kind of thinking about 'experience' as wisdom/understanding. Having experienced many methods of lighting a fire, say, I computed that knowledge into setting scrunched up newspaper/sticks/coal and putting a match to it. I can quite see though how many people undertaking various tasks don't learn/improve (beyond the basics) and just accept the same poor outcomes over and over. And yet they are experienced (in a certain sense of the word) if the measure if going to be the length of time, as you say.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> In a completely non-argumentative way, does the above really exist? I mean, back in the day, the rule of thumb was loosely, if a shot was much under or over 30 seconds then it was either under or over extracted. Since this, fables have surfaced, around the word tasty, suddenly anything goes. People are pulling tasty 40, 50 and 60 second shots......if a shot is not prepared correctly, ir too much/too little coffee, tamp is wrong, grind is wrong then the output must be wrong. So, how does someone intentionally pull a 40 second shot on a nonprogrammable machine? Or, is this just another bout of coffee bollocks?


Amazing that all this discussion came from this post. And I presume this post came from my small video of a complete (unrehearsed) walk up espresso shot and clean up in the Coffee Lounge. It's not about coffee bollocks, who is right and wrong, who has how much experience, or not. It's simply about working with something and keeping an open mind. If by trying different things that "feel" right with the machine/coffee/grinder you are working with, the taste/results improve, then surely we learn. Without trying anything new, we don't learn.

I only learnt that *for the Minima coupled with a Niche Zero*, the sweet spot for most coffees seemed to be around the 40-45 second mark. I never said this would apply to all machines, or that other people should do it. I do hope of course people will be open minded to experimentation and the Video might encourage that. Without that experimentation we would not have new coffee machines, home roasters, 1kg roasters that cost so little, or the great range of grinders we have got. We would still only have access to the very limited stuff we had 15 years ago.

remember when @dsc made this thread https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?44594-Calling-all-conic-users

I think 2 people actually tried it, I was one of them and I learnt something that made me change my technique on the Niche...it made me realise that a quick stir of the grinds (as you saw me do with a chopstick in the Video) is worthwhile. Using skill and experience to guide experimentation and discover new things is one of the greatest gifts we have.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Amazing that all this discussion came from this post. And I presume this post came from my small video of a complete (unrehearsed) walk up espresso shot and clean up in the Coffee Lounge. It's not about coffee bollocks, who is right and wrong, who has how much experience, or not. It's simply about working with something and keeping an open mind. If by trying different things that "feel" right with the machine/coffee/grinder you are working with, the taste/results improve, then surely we learn. Without trying anything new, we don't learn.
> 
> I only learnt that *for the Minima coupled with a Niche Zero*, the sweet spot for most coffees seemed to be around the 40-45 second mark. I never said this would apply to all machines, or that other people should do it. I do hope of course people will be open minded to experimentation and the Video might encourage that. Without that experimentation we would not have new coffee machines, home roasters, 1kg roasters that cost so little, or the great range of grinders we have got. We would still only have access to the very limited stuff we had 15 years ago.
> 
> ...


But, if you do not have the tastebuds to detect these changes, which the vast majority of us do not, does it really matter?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> But, if you do not have the tastebuds to detect these changes, which the vast majority of us do not, does it really matter?


To some people it may not matter at all, this is fine if that's right for them. For me personally it does matter and that's right for me and it's the way I do things.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> To some people it may not matter at all, this is fine if that's right for them. For me personally it does matter and that's right for me and it's the way I do things.


You realise though, that there was never any criticism of you and your advice Dave. My genuine question, was if you do not have the knowledge to permutate the suggested answer, is there any point in trying to....again, not aimed at you but to those who respond with the tasty answer as a way of sorting all evils....


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> You realise though, that there was never any criticism of you and your advice Dave. My genuine question, was if you do not have the knowledge to permutate the suggested answer, is there any point in trying to....again, not aimed at you but to those who respond with the tasty answer as a way of sorting all evils....


Of course I realise that it was not criticism of me and have not taken it that way at all. The answer to your question is yes, because even without knowledge and experience, most of us can learn from our mistakes. For some, tasty is their way of articulating something they like, again an imperfect definition, but at least they are using some criteria to evaluate. My point is: It's good to experiment, guidance is helpful as is knowledge and experience. @ajohn is experimenting with his Gene Cafe and you never know, he may find a better way of using it, or he might learn what doesn't work, both valuable lessons.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Only valuable if you heed the results/advice


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

What was the old advice again? 25-30 seconds for 25-30ml for a single or 50-60ml for a double from a 7g and 14g dose respectively? People are dosing more now and pulling tighter shots so logically the time has to increase. I've had drinkable shots that have run beyond the 50 second mark and below the 20 second mark. I've had really good shots around 25 seconds and 35 seconds and 45 seconds. I've had crap spanning the entire time frame too. How well a shot pulls shorter/longer seems to depend a lot on the roast and the age of it. As for "what is tasty?" it requires an experiment really. You might like a a coffee pulled in 30 seconds to x ratio but you might like it even more pulled in 40 or 25. As advice for the beginner it is basically saying don't be dogmatic, try different things: if a shot seems a bit thin and flat, maybe sour or maybe has a bitter after taste then try a longer or sorter extraction, try a different ratio, maybe even a different temperature, until you find something that you like and don't worry about whether or not it falls within certain arbitrary parameters. The way I approach 'reaching tasty' is to pull a shot for about 25-30 seconds 18g:40g and if I taste it and think the beans have more to give I grind finer and extract for longer, if not then good I've found my recipe. If I think I've pulled too much from the bean maybe I extract for less time or lower the temp, maybe I go for 45g instead of 40g just to see if that helps.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> What was the old advice again?










I think it was this....I struggle to taste the difference


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Rob1 said:


> What was the old advice again? 25-30 seconds for 25-30ml for a single or 50-60ml for a double from a 7g and 14g dose respectively? People are dosing more now and pulling tighter shots so logically the time has to increase. I've had drinkable shots that have run beyond the 50 second mark and below the 20 second mark. I've had really good shots around 25 seconds and 35 seconds and 45 seconds. I've had crap spanning the entire time frame too. How well a shot pulls shorter/longer seems to depend a lot on the roast and the age of it. As for "what is tasty?" it requires an experiment really. You might like a a coffee pulled in 30 seconds to x ratio but you might like it even more pulled in 40 or 25. As advice for the beginner it is basically saying don't be dogmatic, try different things: if a shot seems a bit thin and flat, maybe sour or maybe has a bitter after taste then try a longer or sorter extraction, try a different ratio, maybe even a different temperature, until you find something that you like and don't worry about whether or not it falls within certain arbitrary parameters. The way I approach 'reaching tasty' is to pull a shot for about 25-30 seconds 18g:40g and if I taste it and think the beans have more to give I grind finer and extract for longer, if not then good I've found my recipe. If I think I've pulled too much from the bean maybe I extract for less time or lower the temp, maybe I go for 45g instead of 40g just to see if that helps.


In all seriousness, this is pretty much what I do when dialling in a bag of beans.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> remember when @dsc made this thread https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?44594-Calling-all-conic-users
> 
> I think 2 people actually tried it, I was one of them and I learnt something that made me change my technique on the Niche...it made me realise that a quick stir of the grinds (as you saw me do with a chopstick in the Video) is worthwhile. Using skill and experience to guide experimentation and discover new things is one of the greatest gifts we have.


I've dabbled in premixing 10 years ago when single dosing a Mazzer Major, but back then the rule was not to touch grinds post grinding, so I stopped doing it. It was a massive mistake which then led on to building my own grinder and finding out that if you single dose the fineness of the grind changes as the burr chamber empties (ie. grind goes coarser as the grinder eats the beans). So my advice would be: always try out things even if there's a bunch of people out there saying you shouldn't. Same goes for 50sec shots, yes there's a definition of espresso which says 25-30sec shots, but who cares, try 3min shots if you want and compare. If 50sec gives you nothing extra, screw it, keep pulling 25sec shots and save some time







coffee is a subjective thing and it's not a competition, so try things and pick whatever is tastier / more convenient. Good comparison here is tea, how many of you uber hardcore coffee fanatics brew with tea bags and add milk cause you just want a quick brew?

As for longer shots I prefer those to short ones as quite often there's a lower chance of low EY and underextraction. Same goes for larger ratios which is why I now mostly pull 3:1 ratio shots and constantly hit 23%EYs.

T.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> What was the old advice again? 25-30 seconds for 25-30ml for a single or 50-60ml for a double from a 7g and 14g dose respectively? People are dosing more now and pulling tighter shots so logically the time has to increase..


That is the sot of thing that prompted my last post. It isn't logical at all. It's something that may work out and wont taste the same as other tuning arrangements. The only person that can say it's a god shot or what ever is the person that is drinking it. Some one else might see it as disgusting. The ratios suggested by basket sizes are interesting but like me I suspect few have tried them other than an odd shot that pops out while setting things up. People forget light singles and doubles too, 6 and 12g but it seems 6g has problems in practice and is likely to need more in it.

Then there is the curry effect. We get used to what we eat and drink. Guilty, my MM is stronger than it used to be. The taste hangs around in my mouth for a good 15min after it's finished now. I like marmalade too so loads of the strongest I can find goes on my toast. If I eat that out at a local church cafe that uses volunteers to serve I can get a pretty good idea if the server has similar tastes by how much they put on.







Seems I'm an extreme marmalade lover. Curries - I can't eat at Adil's any more nor a very local one since a change of ownership.







Maybe I could eat at Adil's since Egon Ronay got at it but probably not.

Personally I suspect that a lot of comments given to people who are starting out may not help at all really especially 1 to 2 in 30 sec. All that can be said about that is once some one achieves consistency in that area they are on the right track but it doesn't mean this is what they must do to produce a drink. Start telling people to change to 40sec or maybe 6bar brewing isn't any different. Coffee beans are cantankerous things just exploring weight in and 30sec can take a long time even if people stick to the same bean. Just one shot may not mean anything. 40sec and 6 bar are no different but by skipping the 30 sec they may miss something. Trying all will takes even longer. People generally buy a bean based on the description of it's taste or characteristics so it makes some sense to try and achieve something like that or why buy it in the first place. Then if need be explore variations.Some beans are best brewed for relatively low taste strength. Other the opposite and the strength of taste a given weight of bean varies according to type as well. It isn't a simple matter of roast level.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Personally I suspect that a lot of comments given to people who are starting out may not help at all really especially 1 to 2 in 30 sec. All that can be said about that is once some one achieves consistency in that area they are on the right track but it doesn't mean this is what they must do to produce a drink. Start telling people to change to 40sec or maybe 6bar brewing isn't any different. Coffee beans are cantankerous things just exploring weight in and 30sec can take a long time even if people stick to the same bean. Just one shot may not mean anything. 40sec and 6 bar are no different but by skipping the 30 sec they may miss something. Trying all will takes even longer. People generally buy a bean based on the description of it's taste or characteristics so it makes some sense to try and achieve something like that or why buy it in the first place. Then if need be explore variations.Some beans are best brewed for relatively low taste strength. Other the opposite and the strength of taste a given weight of bean varies according to type as well. It isn't a simple matter of roast level.
> 
> John
> 
> -


I don't agree with this. When people start out they generally know nothing and to give them a few easy signposts on the road to knowing something is essential. This is true of all learning I have come across in my life. When flying you teach people to solo, so they don't kill themselves, Physicians qualify, drivers pass their test, students pass GCSEs, Roasters learn to roast. These are all basic qualification and after that experience kicks in. they may think they know a lot, but in reality they don't....they have just taken the first steps in the right direction. Those steps have to be quite formulaic, simple and unambiguous to be an effective learning tool. Experience teaches judgement, wisdom and sufficient ability to experiment productively.

To get people on the path they need to be given a few simple pointers to get early success.


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## matharon (Dec 22, 2014)

During my early days of coffee learning I gained most help from forums such as this one backed up by attending several forum days where you learn from others in a hands on environment and get to play with a wide range of methods, machines, grinders and beans.

There appears to be no such thing as a stupid question here and this must be the friendliest and most helpful forum on the net.

Taste is certainly subjective and seems to come down to what you enjoy and if I change something can I tell the difference and was it better or worse (to me!) AND can I repeat it if it was better.

Best advice received is to weigh in and out rather than time.

Next was to find a bean I liked and stick with it whilst playing with all(sic) the variables.

I also found it useful to taste ( from a teaspoon sip taken mid flow) beginning mid and late shot (or more frequently) which helped me to see how the taste changes during the shot (and perhaps at what point it is worth stopping as not much is being added)


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> I don't agree with this. When people start out they generally know nothing and to give them a few easy signposts on the road to knowing something is essential. This is true of all learning I have come across in my life. When flying you teach people to solo, so they don't kill themselves, Physicians qualify, drivers pass their test, students pass GCSEs, Roasters learn to roast. These are all basic qualification and after that experience kicks in. they may think they know a lot, but in reality they don't....they have just taken the first steps in the right direction. Those steps have to be quite formulaic, simple and unambiguous to be an effective learning tool. Experience teaches judgement, wisdom and sufficient ability to experiment productively.
> 
> To get people on the path they need to be given a few simple pointers to get early success.


I didn't state that telling people to use 1 to 2 in 30sec is wrong etc. Just that in practice it's not that simple and that this should be mentioned - variations are possible and may be preferable. As a certain "gent" mentioned once to me it's a starting point. If people choose to use 40 sec or what ever it's still a starting point or should be but some one who has locked into that might come to the conclusion that every bean they try should be brewed like that. Some may have brewed for so long that they have no interest in varying what ever it is they do.








Actually my starting point with a new bean is how ever the grinder happens to be set, time too. It will run at some ratio that probably wont be the same as it was with the bean I used previously. It could go either way. If it doesn't then I'll deliberately make it different and see what that does to taste. I might finish up using 1 to 2 or some other but I go either way to see what suites me and the bean so no point in tuning for 1 to 2 initially even though I might finish up using it. I could also throw time into the mix. Also brew pressure. Too many variables and as a result combinations. Something I might do with a bean I use a lot eventually but so far see no point. I like the drink that I make with that bean. It's tricky enough to achieve that consistently as things currently are. Some one else who drinks the same bean goes risteretto as longer goes to bitter for her. Hubby takes a full shot. I go lungo but wouldn't describe the result as bitter. I'm not happy about the taste of a straight double, 1 to 2 in 30sec. There can be all sorts of reasons for things being like this including, machine, quantity, grind and me versus the other 2.

John

-


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I do a 50 sec shot sometimes haha


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> But, if you do not have the tastebuds to detect these changes, which the vast majority of us do not, does it really matter?


Do you have any tastebuds?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Jony said:


> I do a 50 sec shot sometimes haha


LOL At least it's signs of a change from 40 secs or what ever.

:yuk:I'm currently tuned for 35g out of the mid day shot. Morning shot comes out lower, evening higher. Roughly 3g max change either way. Next thing is to switch the DB to volume and see what happens.

John

-


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Do you have any tastebuds?


Good question William! Let us go back a bit here. The point of this thread was to ask if the beginner really benefitted from the tasty approach? As an experienced home user that will never have the experience of anyone working in a commercial environment, I understand that you can change the taste of a shot by a number of different methods, but will they? Once milk is added, and I firmly believe that the majority of users on here add milk, then what exactly are you tasting? If you drink espresso or perhaps espresso with water added you are tasting the base product and if your tastebuds are in tune, you will/might detect differences as you experiment. Me, as I always say, I make two sorts of drinks, which I either sink or drink....


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Interesting point Dave.

As general rule I don't have milk in coffee, I tend to drink espresso or filter.

I'm only a home enthusiast too but I think there is difference in shot taste when you start playing around with it (even for my crap palate). Not always good.

I agree that milk can hide a multitude of sins (but I'm no expert as I don't drink that much milk based drink).

So are you saying that anyone who drink milk based coffee is wasting their time and money trying make a good shot.

Should milk based coffee drinkers limit themselves to entry level kit (as better grinders / machines won't make a difference in how it will taste)?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Interesting point Dave.
> 
> As general rule I don't have milk in coffee, I tend to drink espresso or filter.
> 
> ...


Hi Clive, nope, I am not saying if you take milk you are wasting your time, but you are making it harder......if you like tomato sauce on your chips, whilst adding to the overall taste experience you are masking the underlying taste of the chip.......in my humble anyway.......but I am suggesting that if you add milk to an espresso, you cannot get the true taste


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Personally I think it depends on how much milk. Motorway coffee for me is an americano with 2 splashes of mllk. 2 to get the colour I like which knocks back the bitterness a bit that their coffee tends to have. I use a similar but a little larger amount in my long blacks at home but the result is a stronger drink. At odd times I may make a cappuccino based on my usual shot. That means adding about 200 odd ml of foamed milk to it. I can still tell what I am drinking but the taste has gone very chocolate and milder but still has more taste than a motorway cappuccino. Those always taste rather weak to me.

I've mentioned before that I doubt if any one would want to drink my MM shot as an espresso. On the other hand using the curry analogy there is a place not far from Adil's that is very busy. They will sell people a potent green chilli encased in something or the other with the stem sticking out of the end to hold it with. A lethal samosa as well. People buy and eat them. I did too once but couldn't now but if some one turned up with a jar of pickled chillies at work I enjoyed them. So maybe some people would drink my shot as an espresso. I might be still tasting it a day after I drank it. I tried a sip once and that taste lasted for hours. If I drank it black with water I'd probably brew it differently so milk is more of another aspect of tuning to me.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Chefs add herbs, spices, salt, pepper to dishes, fry in butter...

Cardamom was a very common thing to add to coffee.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Ha I use weigh in weigh out method , I do time my shots but would very rarely stop the shot based on time ,but I do on weight .

Including pre infusion of about 10 seconds most shots come in about 44-50 seconds . A lesser time is noitacble first by the lever bite position and second by the levers rate of travel.

got to love the londinium for repeatability .

And of course taste is king , if you're happy with it that's all that matters .


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> ....but I am suggesting that if you add milk to an espresso, you cannot get the true taste


I think it is harder to pick out tasting notes with milk IMO.


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## Hasi (Dec 27, 2017)

Great discussion so far!

Just adding my verbal diarrhoea:

In a professional environment, you specifically educate yourself to distinguish between the many aromatic components coffee may feature - in order to describe them. Training can be done through bottled aroma kits and different ratios of water and sugar/salt/acid/bittern mixtures. But it has nothing to do with tasty: coffee buyers or quality managers and other sensory professionals don't necessarily like what they smell, but they need to grade it, check it against a template or master sample... but hell, they know coffee inside out!

Also, for a *beginner *it is foremost essential to *find out what they actually need to look for* in their desired drink!

It begins with learning about flavours in the cup, and a bit of a physical, chemical and physiological background to how they get there. They should visit different specialty coffee places and watch pros at work, read their coffee descriptions, talk to them as much as possible. Then, go read a coffee book and/or get a basic barista(-like) training that includes theory and different brew methods. Before even considering to buy any equipment or worry about usage.

Only then a beginner is enabled to reasonably hunt for their very own tasty. At that stage, aforementioned signposts come into play. Ideally with a side note saying they are guides, not ultimate truths.

By the way, here's a nice visual - stolen from the parallel universe (HB forums):










And the post it stems from: https://www.home-barista.com/tips/espresso-101-how-to-adjust-dose-and-grind-setting-by-taste-t16968.html

*History?*

The Golden Rules of the past have been developed for business reasons rather than proper extraction. A 7g single dose for instance translates to 144 servings per the kilo bag. Well, almost. However, 144/kg is still a figure gastronomers love to calculate with, nowadays. And it is very hard to convince them it's rubbish (as well as making them understand it doesn't really affect their budget if they change their mind). Next thing, time is money: given the times where funds were low with most people, how many coffee shops would've survived if they would've allowed for minute-long extractions? Just recently, I've watched some old footage of genuine 2sec lever action I found in this thread right here. Imagine how it must've tasted!

There were times where hardly anyone would even fiddle with espresso machines in private, but rather have bars and cafés serve it to them. There was no such thing as barista trainings for a long time, as well as the coffee world lacked profound scientific research for decades if not centuries into coffee making. *Simply put: nobody knew better!*

Luckily, we live in an era of prosperity and wealth these days, where we can adequately value quality and taste. Finally folks, we can wank off over God shots and stuff - no offence meant! - so we require new approaches while climbing up the ladder from Maxwell House's basement. If we find time and effort are worth it, we extract for as long as we want.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Chefs add herbs, spices, salt, pepper to dishes, fry in butter...
> 
> Cardamom was a very common thing to add to coffee.


Yes, but if you want to taste the thing you are cooking, on the whole you would not add spices etc. I know you add salt but most spices alter the taste. unadulterated espresso will have a totally different taste to one with milk in, but you already know that Dave!


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Yes, but if you want to taste the thing you are cooking, on the whole you would not add spices etc. I know you add salt but most spices alter the taste. unadulterated espresso will have a totally different taste to one with milk in, but you already know that Dave!


Sure...my point is that there are many ways to enjoy a drink. I like my espresso with nothing, or a dash of cream, my Americano with milk (or double cram now), must have a sweetener (black no sweetener), I hate coffee cake and I don't like cold coffee drinks, sweetened or not. I don't use flavours in my coffee routinely, but have used real vanilla or cardamom before and it can be pleasant. If I am cupping I never use milk or sweetener. However it doesn't mean you can't taste the underlying drink once you add these things, you most definitely can.

Someone else mentioned never stopping a shot based on time and that's not what's been said either. I was quite specific, I look for that weight in a certain time for a certain machine to know I am on the money (or volume) once you know what it should look like.

For beginners there are 2 very important quick wins that they need with the simplest of guidance. e.g. perhaps 18g in and 40g out in 30s, use fresh coffee and a good grinder.

1. To get something that looks the business

2. Something that tastes good (whether they have milk, sugar and syrup)

Without these 2 things they get information overload and disillusioned very quickly....think about all those first forum posts we see.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Sure...my point is that there are many ways to enjoy a drink. I like my espresso with nothing, or a dash of cream, my Americano with milk (or double cram now), must have a sweetener (black no sweetener), I hate coffee cake and I don't like cold coffee drinks, sweetened or not. I don't use flavours in my coffee routinely, but have used real vanilla or cardamom before and it can be pleasant. If I am cupping I never use milk or sweetener. However it doesn't mean you can't taste the underlying drink once you add these things, you most definitely can.
> 
> Someone else mentioned never stopping a shot based on time and that's not what's been said either. I was quite specific, I look for that weight in a certain time for a certain machine to know I am on the money (or volume) once you know what it should look like.
> 
> ...


Quite agree, which leads me right back to question the advice given when a newbie asks a question and is told if it is tasty not to worry......that is not an answer as they are LEARNING absolutely nothing from it


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Agreed good advice for a newbie is

careful basket and shot prep,

weigh in weigh out

Aim for 18g=>40g output in 30 secs as a starting point.

But it's just a starting point.

What's wrong in then getting someone to try the 40 secs shot and see if tastes better? Or going trying a 45g output or a 35g shot? Particularly if it tastes better. That's learning something ...what they prefer the taste of.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I think all my shots are over 40 seconds tbh. 40s is usually the pre-infusion time.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Would a beginner be able to work out, the ways of moving from a 30 to a 40 second shot? remembering the word repeatability


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Brew time is the least repeatable aspect of a shot (same ratio, same grind setting). Holding on to time as guide to extraction is bound to lead to confusion.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> Hi Clive, nope, I am not saying if you take milk you are wasting your time, but you are making it harder......if you like tomato sauce on your chips, whilst adding to the overall taste experience you are masking the underlying taste of the chip.......in my humble anyway.......but I am suggesting that if you add milk to an espresso, you cannot get the true taste


But what is the true taste of Coffee when you include the likes of Honey, Blackcurrant, Chocolate and all other distractions.

Jon.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

xpresso said:


> But what is the true taste of Coffee when you include the likes of Honey, Blackcurrant, Chocolate and all other distractions.
> 
> Jon.


Why do you add honey, blackcurrant...unless you have a cold?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

xpresso said:


> But what is the true taste of Coffee when you include the likes of Honey, Blackcurrant, Chocolate and all other distractions.
> 
> Jon.


Nescafe


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Hi Clive, nope, I am not saying if you take milk you are wasting your time, but you are making it harder......if you like tomato sauce on your chips, whilst adding to the overall taste experience you are masking the underlying taste of the chip.......in my humble anyway.......but I am suggesting that if you add milk to an espresso, you cannot get the true taste


You might not get all the nuances but you can still tell if it's a great shot, an average shot, or a crap shot through milk.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> Would a beginner be able to work out, the ways of moving from a 30 to a 40 second shot? remembering the word repeatability


I'd hope so, if they spent any time dialing in their grinder for a 30 second shot it shouldn't be too hard to figure out how they might move to a 40 second shot. Same is true if they've ever adjusted brew pressure and temp. Which reminds me I should really try a shot of the Mk9 pulled at a higher temp.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Agreed good advice for a newbie is
> 
> careful basket and shot prep,
> 
> ...


Mmmmm I doon't think I can get 18g in the 14g basket I am currently using. That's with just one bean. The same basket may need 15.5g with some beans but still wouldn't hold 18g.

Vary what ever some one actually does do yes. As mentioned I do that with every bean I buy also including varying the weight and basket I use.

John

-


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Mmmmm I doon't think I can get 18g in the 14g basket I am currently using. That's with just one bean. The same basket may need 15.5g with some beans but still wouldn't hold 18g.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Presumably they could though if they used an 18 gm basket?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

ajohn said:


> Mmmmm I doon't think I can get 18g in the 14g basket I am currently using.
> 
> -


That there would be a daft thing to do. If they're trying that then there's no hope for them.


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

I think that's common with lever machines. Do you have some video examples of other machines pulling 40+s shots?


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## dlight (Nov 11, 2014)

This has to be the most weird, meaningless thread in making consistently great coffee. Over 80 posts and very few are even coherent.

The basics have been thrown out and the mechanics of extended pre-infusion not even understood.

Very puzzling why anyone even responds. I'm puzzled as to why I've bothered.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

dlight said:


> This has to be the most weird, meaningless thread in making consistently great coffee. Over 80 posts and very few are even coherent.
> 
> The basics have been thrown out and the mechanics of extended pre-infusion not even understood.
> 
> Very puzzling why anyone even responds. I'm puzzled as to why I've bothered.


Couldn't agree more. Once you've set your dose & ratio, then time is the final step in dialling in for flavour. Who cares if it takes 30, 40 or 90 seconds so long as it tastes good to you. It'll most likely change with different beans anyway.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The whole point of the thread, as I have already explained, was to question the validity of advice given to beginners who have a problem in getting the desired shot. They are often told if it is tasty, then not to worry. The thread has nothing to do with how long a shot takes to pour. it asks if someone has a problem what sort of answer is if it tastes ok do not worry. Sorry if that is a bit difficult for some of you to understand


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The whole point of the thread, as I have already explained, was to question the validity of advice given to beginners who have a problem in getting the desired shot. They are often told if it is tasty, then not to worry. The thread has nothing to do with how long a shot takes to pour. it asks if someone has a problem what sort of answer is if it tastes ok do not worry. Sorry if that is a bit difficult for some of you to understand


I think the bit we're struggling with is, if the shot tastes good (& you know what you did & can repeat it, maybe with small adjustments), what else is there to worry about? What is a bigger problem than the shot tasting bad?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> The whole point of the thread, as I have already explained, was to question the validity of advice given to beginners who have a problem in getting the desired shot. They are often told if it is tasty, then not to worry. The thread has nothing to do with how long a shot takes to pour. it asks if someone has a problem what sort of answer is if it tastes ok do not worry. Sorry if that is a bit difficult for some of you to understand


Some people like short shots , some like heavier shots, some drink in milk , some do not.

So tasty to people will be different. Look when we talked about VST and EY % , people used throw , its all abotu the numbers , what about the taste.

Well if a person can't decide on whether they think it's tasty or not , then where do they go from there anyway ?

Some girls need alot of living and some girls don't ( the imortal Racy )


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Once again, this is not aimed at anyone with more than a modicum of knowledge/experience. Sometimes, it is necessary to go back and explain the basics, even though perhaps a search would reveal the same questions elsewhere.......repeatability.....very desirable ad achievable, with a bit of experience


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Some girls need alot of living and some girls don't ( the imortal Racy )


I can't believe Racy has been brought into this. Next it will be Tony Blackburn with a plastic Union Jack bowler hat!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> ... Next it will be Tony Blackburn with a plastic Union Jack bowler hat!


You mean Lenny?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> You mean Lenny?


Lenny???!?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

MWJB said:


> You mean Lenny?


Lenny Blackburn, is that his brother?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> Lenny Blackburn, is that his brother?


Lenny Gamble....






Apparently fans used to make him sign autographs as "Lenny", despite him saying, "You know it's me, Tony, don't you?". "Yeah, thanks Lenny".


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

MWJB said:


> Lenny Gamble....


Wow! I've just googled it and found this

http:// https://goo.gl/images/NXzPNZ


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Wow! I've just googled it and found this
> 
> http:// https://goo.gl/images/NXzPNZ


Let that be a warning to all...the internet is forever!


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

I thought that this was actually a very useful thread.

I have found as a result of reading this thread I have become much more relaxed about the shot time taken.

With some beans I was finding it hard and a bit frustrating to keep within the very tight 25-30s shot time, often needing continual grinder adjustment whilst, at the back of my mind, I was struggling with a niggling feeling that my 30+s shots had a nicer mouthfeel, more tiger stripes, and a more balanced taste - i was resisting listening to this as "I should be targeting 30s".

I'm now finding a sweet spot at 35 seconds with my current Origin La Virgen beans.

Interestingly it is very easy to give insufficient PI on the lever and slip into the 45s bracket - at that point the taste goes wrong entirely - almost socky! I have never had this before when dealing with shorter extraction times.

So, I've also learned a little bit more about hitting "tasty".

Good thread and well worth exploring different extraction times


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I guess it's how the machine does pre-infusion, as 3 bar hitting the puck all at once will compress it more than a gradual ramp up to 3 bar which will result in choking at the same grind.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

rob177palmer said:


> I thought that this was actually a very useful thread.
> 
> I have found as a result of reading this thread I have become much more relaxed about the shot time taken.
> 
> ...


I too have learned. With the arrival of the Niche, and not being one to play, rather just use, I am finding from dropping the lever to start the pump, to the point at which the shot starts has gone up from 6 to 7 seconds to 20 to 25......but the the flow is perfect


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I too have learned. With the arrival of the Niche, and not being one to play, rather just use, I am finding from dropping the lever to start the pump, to the point at which the shot starts has gone up from 6 to 7 seconds to 20 to 25......but the the flow is perfect


Interesting point - too much faff to change the grind setting substantially between shots on a normal grinder. I can imagine a Niche / Monolith zero retention design would really open up to experimenting


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I had a really god 1:15 shot this morning. I went to adjust the grinder coarser but went the wrong way and only managed a few drips in 20 seconds. I dropped the lever half way to stop the pump and waited about 20 seconds, watched the pressure gauge dropping and then started the pump again. over the next 30 or so seconds I got a really good even flow. Pulled the fig/plum flavours right out of the CC Brazil Natural with very little in the way of over extracted after taste. Will try the same technique again only without letting it get up to full pressure at the start (maybe 4-5 bar) which will hopefully stop the over extraction entirely...


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Tried it and it didn't have the same effect. Time to go coarser (actually coarser).


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