# Best budget machine



## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

Hello,

I want to prepare espresso and cappuccino at home, so I have to buy a machine. I saw a manual espresso machine but I don't know if it do as quality and taste like the machine.

I have couple questions:

1. What is the best budget machine which prepare very good cups of espresso and cappuccino?

2. I have a little question about the shot, how many pulls I can get in one shot? Because I see they only do one pull of one shot of brewed coffee. I think it's a waste of like 18 g of coffee. Can I do another pull of the same shot?


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Gaggia Classic

Regards,

Victor


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

There's a DTP in the for sale section. Excellent machine and great when first starting out.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

18 gms is a fairly standard dose for a shot. You are going to dilute it with milk for a cappuccino. You can buy a machine with two spouts for the coffee to run down and put a cup under each, if that is your taste. Unfortunately, a budget machine will give you a budget cuppa, as a rule of thumb. the minimum entry level machine as mentioned, id]s the haggis classic, followed by the Sage Dual temp pro but each machine will also mean you need a separate grinder


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

wolfrose said:


> Hello,
> 
> I want to prepare espresso and cappuccino at home, so I have to buy a machine. I saw a manual espresso machine but I don't know if it do as quality and taste like the machine.
> 
> ...


and a grinder


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> 18 gms is a fairly standard dose for a shot. You are going to dilute it with milk for a cappuccino. You can buy a machine with two spouts for the coffee to run down and put a cup under each, if that is your taste. Unfortunately, a budget machine will give you a budget cuppa, as a rule of thumb. the minimum entry level machine as mentioned, id]s the haggis classic, followed by the Sage Dual temp pro but each machine will also mean you need a separate grinder


Thanks for the reply.

I have a grinder.

The Sage machine is so expensive, the other one also in price range of $360. I may buy one in price range of $300 but it should be very good, I'm searching now for a good budget machine.

I think De'Longhi

machines are a good start, because it has a high ratings on Amazon.

I think it's better to start with something not so expensive.


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## Planter (Apr 12, 2017)

wolfrose said:


> Thanks for the reply.
> 
> I have a grinder.
> 
> ...


The Sage DTP in the forum for sale section is mine, and is a great machine. Considerably cheaper than the $360 you've quoted. You'll need to get your post count up before you can view the sale forum, I believe it needs to be 5.

It is also considerably better (IMO) than a delonghi machine, especially if you already have a grinder lined up.

Hope this helps


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can I give you a rain check, and I am not being my usual grumpy old self. Anyone buying a coffee machine from Amazon is buying a basic basic non prosumer entry level machine that will be utter shite. Do not kid yourself into thinking you can prepare a decent cuppa. You cannot. they all use pressurised baskets which means fewer holes fo the coffee to pass through, under pressure to imitate a proper machine. I have already told you the answer to your question!


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Welcome to the forum buddy.

Good advice on here.... sometimes delivered sugar coated, sometimes not ;-)

Avoid that delonghi shnizzle


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

Ok I'll bite, only because this place really is by the most part very friendly and has been such an invaluable source of information in my journey all things coffee.

I suppose the first question is when you say you want to make good espresso/cappuccino at home - what are you comparing this too? What is your definition of good, is it your local high street chain like Starbucks or are you referring to independent coffee shops that source well roasted fresh beans.

You say you have a grinder - is it a quality burr grinder (essential for espresso be it handheld manual or automatic) or a blade type chopping grinder?

I'm afraid there aren't any cheap machines (unless you're lucky to pick up something second hand) as has already been stated. Does this mean that you can't produce good coffee at home - for a small outlay - absolutely not - a good way too start your journey might be an aero press and porlex handheld grinder with a milk frother. This is how I started and really can produce some outstanding results. You'll quickly decide on whether the journey and further expense is worth your while. The purchase won'y be wasted either as it makes for a great kit to travel with.

Good Luck

cheers Philip


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

Planter said:


> The Sage DTP in the forum for sale section is mine, and is a great machine. Considerably cheaper than the $360 you've quoted. You'll need to get your post count up before you can view the sale forum, I believe it needs to be 5.
> 
> It is also considerably better (IMO) than a delonghi machine, especially if you already have a grinder lined up.
> 
> Hope this helps


OK, I'm searching and looking what's best for me.

Thanks for the offer


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

Planter said:


> The Sage DTP in the forum for sale section is mine, and is a great machine. Considerably cheaper than the $360 you've quoted. You'll need to get your post count up before you can view the sale forum, I believe it needs to be 5.
> 
> It is also considerably better (IMO) than a delonghi machine, especially if you already have a grinder lined up.
> 
> Hope this helps


Yes, thank you for the offer.

Send me a link to this model you have.



dfk41 said:


> Can I give you a rain check, and I am not being my usual grumpy old self. Anyone buying a coffee machine from Amazon is buying a basic basic non prosumer entry level machine that will be utter shite. Do not kid yourself into thinking you can prepare a decent cuppa. You cannot. they all use pressurised baskets which means fewer holes fo the coffee to pass through, under pressure to imitate a proper machine. I have already told you the answer to your question!


What is a rain check?









But, Amazon also has a lot of high quality brands; like, gaggia and Sage. There are different brands with different prices.



kennyboy993 said:


> Welcome to the forum buddy.
> 
> Good advice on here.... sometimes delivered sugar coated, sometimes not ;-)
> 
> Avoid that delonghi shnizzle


LOL thanks for the kind reply, you're sweet










Well, delonghi has cheap machines. I saw their reviews on YouTube, they produce good espresso, but of course I don't know which one is the best or which brand.

I know that I would love the espresso crema. So, if the machine is good for espresso, then it's also good for cappuccino.

I don't want to rush in this purchase, because it's an expensive decision, I need more time to watch YouTube reviews and also the recommendations from forums.



Beeroclock said:


> Ok I'll bite, only because this place really is by the most part very friendly and has been such an invaluable source of information in my journey all things coffee.
> 
> I suppose the first question is when you say you want to make good espresso/cappuccino at home - what are you comparing this too? What is your definition of good, is it your local high street chain like Starbucks or are you referring to independent coffee shops that source well roasted fresh beans.
> 
> ...


Hello Philip, than you for your concerned reply and the nice details you mentioned. Well, my first answer to tour first question, my definition to what's good, I don't know or I'm not so sure because I haven't tasted a lot of high quality cups of cappuccino. One of the best cups I got is a cappuccino from a coffee shop in metro station, in Genava. In my country we have barnie's as an example of local high street chain. I'm not expert with independent coffee shops.

My grinder is this one:









OK, I like your advice for the aero press. So, beside the grinder I have, I need an aero press and milk forther, is there anything else?


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

Hi Wolfrose - with the greates respect, that grinder will not do espresso, at best you could use it for a filter/pour over - but that is vey debatable.

I would look at getting a rhinowares hand grinder, aeropress and milk frother, then the most important ingredient good freshly roasted beans - try and see if you have a local roaster or coffee shop that sells beans.

Also worth spending some time looking through old threads on here...it doesn't follow that a good espresso machine makes good cappuccino - it depends on the machines ability to steam milk and of course the operator.

cheers Philip


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

Beeroclock said:


> Hi Wolfrose - with the greates respect, that grinder will not do espresso, at best you could use it for a filter/pour over - but that is vey debatable.
> 
> I would look at getting a rhinowares hand grinder, aeropress and milk frother, then the most important ingredient good freshly roasted beans - try and see if you have a local roaster or coffee shop that sells beans.
> 
> ...


I'm watching videos on YouTube about the minipress, it's a nice tool and produces a good espresso. A cheap machine would costs like $25 more; like, Delonghi EC155.

The minipress is free electricity, so it's nice for saving power.

The minipress can produce an espresso, and espresso is everything I need, if I want to prepare an espresso, a cappuccino or mocas.

I think it's a good choice plus the milk forther.


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

Good luck with your journey Wolfrose, but one thing I can guarantee you is that you won't produce an espresso with that Moulinex grinder it simply can't grind fine or consistently enough.

cheers Philip


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

How much do you have to spend maxiumun.


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

Hello Philip,

OK, I don't have a problem to buy an espresso grinder.

But, I can control the level of grinding. Like, more time is more fine grind, isn't that enough? I want to understand what is the special feature in espresso grinder that my grinder can't do?

Also, saw a review about this machine, I liked it, what you think?






Also I want to thank you for continuous support.

For a while I thought the minipress is good enough but now I think a want a machine, I'm not sure until now what would be the good start with minipress or a machine?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

That's a great machine - popular on here 

With a burr grinder to match it you're ready


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## DougalMcGuire (Feb 21, 2016)

Beeroclock said:


> Ok I'll bite, only because this place really is by the most part very friendly and has been such an invaluable source of information in my journey all things coffee.
> 
> I suppose the first question is when you say you want to make good espresso/cappuccino at home - what are you comparing this too? What is your definition of good, is it your local high street chain like Starbucks or are you referring to independent coffee shops that source well roasted fresh beans.
> 
> ...


This is excellent advice. Decent hand grinder and an aeropress. Then find a decent roaster for beans. All you need to get started. The Delonghi will just be a waste of money. I had one about 8 years ago.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

This is going to be a long arduous thread.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Jony said:


> This is going to be a long arduous thread.


As mine were when I first started. This is what the forum is about


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

ohhhhh


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

wolfrose said:


> Hello Philip,
> 
> OK, I don't have a problem to buy an espresso grinder.
> 
> ...


Well I own it's bigger brother the dual boiler as do a fair few on this forum. The DTP as starter machine, I believe would make an excellent choice - above all you'll get good temperature stability with this something that can be a bit tricky with other cheaper machines.

Would be worth your while searching burr grinder vs blade - to get a better idea - but what you really need is a grinder with burrs that can produce consistent sized grinds small enough to provide a proper extraction - not possible with a blade grinder and espresso..

cheers Philip


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Let's define a budget machine; price, new, second hand?


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> That's a great machine - popular on here
> 
> With a burr grinder to match it you're ready


Thank you so much for your encouraging comment











DougalMcGuire said:


> This is excellent advice. Decent hand grinder and an aeropress. Then find a decent roaster for beans. All you need to get started. The Delonghi will just be a waste of money. I had one about 8 years ago.


I thought about the aeropress and the minipress vs a machine, still not sure which route to go, but now I feel more like to buy a machine because it froths the milk and brew the coffee.

But the minipress still an attractive choice.



Jony said:


> This is going to be a long arduous thread.


I'm sorry I don't know much about coffee machines and need recommendations, that's why I asked in a forum, and also have a discussion with people, it's also meant to be a community environment, so an extended conversation is OK


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

It does sound like you would prefer a machine - it's the whole 'barista' experience you are after







and why not!

The Sage/Breville machines are a popular way to get into it. If you look after the machine and then decided after a wehile it isn't for you, you would be able to sell it and recoup some of your outlay.

Apart from a grinder you will need to budget for decent, freshly roasted beans, a few accessories, plus bottled water for your machine if you don't want to ruin it.


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> As mine were when I first started. This is what the forum is about


LOL so I remembered you with old beautiful days









Of course, that's I think a common behavior that anyone who is passionate about something, then goes to a forum to get more ideas, experiences and recommendations with other people, then you most likely to have discussions with other interested people, some people could be new too and have the same issue or interested in the topic ... etc.



Beeroclock said:


> Well I own it's bigger brother the dual boiler as do a fair few on this forum. The DTP as starter machine, I believe would make an excellent choice - above all you'll get good temperature stability with this something that can be a bit tricky with other cheaper machines.
> 
> Would be worth your while searching burr grinder vs blade - to get a better idea - but what you really need is a grinder with burrs that can produce consistent sized grinds small enough to provide a proper extraction - not possible with a blade grinder and espresso..
> 
> cheers Philip


Thank you again for your professional detailed answer, that's what I'm looking for.

So, the machine is an excellent choice, OK so it's now one of the best options for me. Now, still the grinder! OK, what other electric grinders are awesome beside the manual ones.



L&R said:


> Let's define a budget machine; price, new, second hand?


I don't have specific criteria, I'm looking for the best option to me.


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

This is my way of preparing my coffee. It's a mix of American and Arabic method.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

wolfrose said:


> LOL so I remembered you with old beautiful days
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Without any idea of what you are able to spend then recommendations are fairly pointless .


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

I think it's a useful idea to start with a bit of psychology (well, I am a psychologist...). Ask yourself:

1. Am I a realistic personality who wants a job done simply and efficiently, no undue fuss?

2. Am I a bit obsessive, research everything, have uncontrollable enthusiasms and hobbies which make me want to get totally immersed in something once I'm hooked?

If 1) then you might buy a new machine off Amazon which is one step above Nespresso and as long as a grinder works for a pressurised portafilter (like DeLonghi) the job is done and there are other more important things in life.

If 2) then coffee is going to take over your life for a while. You'll start researching beans, grinders, machines, and make copious notes, as well as watching a lot of Youtube videos and tutorials.

As you might have gathered by now, we're mostly the second type on these forums. A bit bonkers, and think and dream coffee. The obsession might pass off after a while and shift to cars, cooking, photography, birdwatching or whatever, but while the obsession is in possession of us we research the tiniest mods and details and yearn after ridiculously commercial shiny Italian machines which are far too big for our kitchens.

So your first post got a bit of a "oh dear, back to basics here.." response. HOWEVER, if at heart you are a bit obsessive about your hobbies and take them to extremes, then all the good folk here will hold your hand and guide you into the Aladdin's Cave of serious equipment. No cause is lost if you're serious about your coffee. I was drinking instant last December, Nespresso this January, had a Delonghi EC155 at the end of January, and a Classic and Mazzer grinder now in February and March. It can go that quickly. I wouldn't go back, despite the size of the machines in my small London kitchen and having to clean the equipment a lot and mop up the stray grounds. The coffee is just in another world - like nothing I'd ever tasted before, because it's clearly better than Starbucks and the usual high street cafes. That's what this forum is about.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well firstly you seem to of answered this question.

I'm sorry I don't know much about coffee machines and need recommendations, that's why I asked in a forum, and also have a discussion with people, it's also meant to be a community environment, so an extended conversation is OK









But failed to answer the one I asked about your budget!!!


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

MildredM said:


> It does sound like you would prefer a machine - it's the whole 'barista' experience you are after
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's why I'm watching a lot of videos and enjoying my time. I don't want to rush, especially after I got a good experiences with local or online purchases. I'm good with my current grinder and my way of cooking the coffee for just few seconds. It really tastes bold and rich.

The beans I bought months ago from Amazon, it's Lavazza roasts, really good coffee











Mrboots2u said:


> Without any idea of what you are able to spend then recommendations are fairly pointless .


No it's OK, I like discussing and chatting with other people about it, I'm enjoying my time, I don't want to rush especially with an expensive purchase of +$300 for a machine.



les24preludes said:


> I think it's a useful idea to start with a bit of psychology (well, I am a psychologist...). Ask yourself:
> 
> 1. Am I a realistic personality who wants a job done simply and efficiently, no undue fuss?
> 
> ...


LOL I laughed for your comments, of course I'm in type 2. Yes, I'm searching machines, grinders and also interested in the manual tools too especially the minipress.



> and yearn after ridiculously commercial shiny Italian machines which are far too big for our kitchens.


 haha omg you're so funny, that's so true, those machines are really good but they're of course designed for big kitchens and coffee shops.



> The coffee is just in another world - like nothing I'd ever tasted before, because it's clearly better than Starbucks and the usual high street cafes. That's what this forum is about.


 You're so right, that's why I want to prepare my own cappuccino, so I don't look for coffee shops, and also to have a variety of coffee recipes; like, mocas and other cool cold drinks


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

Jony said:


> Well firstly you seem to of answered this question.
> 
> I'm sorry I don't know much about coffee machines and need recommendations, that's why I asked in a forum, and also have a discussion with people, it's also meant to be a community environment, so an extended conversation is OK
> 
> ...


I'm really sorry I didn't see the question about my maximum budget. I didn't noticed it.

And to answer it, is that's I'm not thinking of paying more than $350 for a machine.

So, I found the Gaggia RI8525/01 and Breville Duo-Temp Pro the best options until now.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Wolfrose the breville is a great machine - it will highlight the problem with your current grinder so if you also invest in a breville grinder (they're called sage over here) or perhaps a eureka mignon you'll be all set to make beautiful espresso


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ah just seen the breville grinder is also it that Seattle coffee vid ;-)

Good pairing


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

kennyboy993 said:


> Wolfrose the breville is a great machine - it will highlight the problem with your current grinder so if you also invest in a breville grinder (they're called sage over here) or perhaps a eureka mignon you'll be all set to make beautiful espresso


Did you see my pictures, of my grinded coffee? Is it enough or I still need a burr one?



kennyboy993 said:


> Ah just seen the breville grinder is also it that Seattle coffee vid ;-)
> 
> Good pairing


Yes, haha interesting videos about espresso, cappuccino and other recipes. Which one? I was the breville espresso machine but not the grinder, I saw videos about grinders but when I see the results of the manual or burr grinders, they are not so much different from the results I have. The difference as I understood that it's just because the blade grinder may grind produce unstable coffee particles.

On this one:


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The blade grinder does not grind, it chops!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> The blade grinder does not grind, it chops!


It's also nigh on impossible to get regular grinds with one unless you take it down to powder where it will have degraded the coffee with excess heat.

Unfortunately espresso needs a grinder that'll grind consistantly which evwn some of the cheaper burr grinders can't manage. You can just about get away with a rancilio rocky or gaggia MDF (especially if you do a stepless mod.) but even on the cheaper machines, a better grinder will produce a better coffee. If you have the space an ex-commercial like a mazzer super jolly shouldn't cost the earth.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

It's a big problem with coming on the forum to ask about coffee machines. The advice always comes back that you need to first make sure you have a decent grinder.

It's consistent advice. And it's not given because people on here have an investment in getting others to buy grinders, it's because it's good advice.

Someone might want to correct me here, but:

I think if you buy the Breville DTP it comes with option to use pressurised baskets in the portafilter. This means you can get away with using pre-ground coffee, or not so brilliantly ground coffee. The end goal would usually be to save up for a decent grinder though, otherwise there doesn't seem much point in buying such a good machine.

R


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> The blade grinder does not grind, it chops!


Did you see my grinder in post #28? How does that coffee look to you? I think that coffee looks even and consistent. Even the lady in the video said moving the grinder while grinding helps.

I'm arguing to not buy a burr grinder, I like it and thinking of getting at least a manual if I didn't find a cheap one.



rdpx said:


> It's a big problem with coming on the forum to ask about coffee machines. The advice always comes back that you need to first make sure you have a decent grinder.
> 
> It's consistent advice. And it's not given because people on here have an investment in getting others to buy grinders, it's because it's good advice.
> 
> ...


I don't want to get a pre-ground coffee, I like to grind it and smell that fresh aroma











> with option to use pressurised baskets in the portafilter.


Didn't understand what is pressurized.



ashcroc said:


> It's also nigh on impossible to get regular grinds with one unless you take it down to powder where it will have degraded the coffee with excess heat.
> 
> Unfortunately espresso needs a grinder that'll grind consistantly which evwn some of the cheaper burr grinders can't manage. You can just about get away with a rancilio rocky or gaggia MDF (especially if you do a stepless mod.) but even on the cheaper machines, a better grinder will produce a better coffee. If you have the space an ex-commercial like a mazzer super jolly shouldn't cost the earth.


The grinders you recommended are expensive to me, the gaggia one is cheaper for $174. But I'm looking for even cheaper ones, I Don't wan to pay like $350 for the espresso machine and another $350 for the grinder, it's a lot in one purchase.


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## rdpx (Jul 18, 2016)

wolfrose said:


> Did you see my grinder in post #28? How does that coffee look to you? I think that coffee looks even and consistent.
> 
> Didn't understand what is pressurized.
> 
> I Don't wan to pay like $350 for the espresso machine and another $350 for the grinder, it's a lot in one purchase.


To find an explanation I googled it for you:

"Pressurised Baskets (sometimes referred to as double wall baskets) consist of a standard mesh base followed by another 'wall' which has generally one small hole in which the extraction is forced through. This creates a greater level of pressure within the basket when brewing occurs. Commonly pressurised baskets can be found with most entry-level home espresso machines.

The biggest benefit to using a pressurised basket is in the way it can greatly improve consistency, the pressurised basket will tolerate a less precisely ground coffee while still returning an acceptable extraction. This is particularly beneficial in domestic settings where a precise grind is not always available, or where the operator may just be looking for a simple setup without the hassle of learning the intricacies of espresso brewing. These baskets allow the use of pre-ground coffee while still producing crema.

The pressure that builds up behind the second wall helps to ensure that the water finds its way through all of the grounds in the basket and assists in drawing out the oils within the coffee. This is also the reason a less precise grind is also acceptable, people may be able to get away with using something more suited to a stove top or drip filter as the coffee is not necessarily creating the resistance, it's all up to the basket."


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

wolfrose said:


> Did you see my grinder in post #28? How does that coffee look to you? I think that coffee looks even and consistent. Even the lady in the video said moving the grinder while grinding helps.
> 
> I'm arguing to not buy a burr grinder, I like it and thinking of getting at least a manual if I didn't find a cheap one.
> 
> ...


Yep I'm not denying it can be a big outlay especially if buying new. I got lucky with a dirt cheap 2nd hand unused MDF which had been sitting in a cupboard ever since it had been given as a wedding pressy. It did the job until I'd saved up for something better.

If you want to keep using your blade grinder that's fine but you'll likely need to use a pressurised basket to get anything close to a decent cup. The grinder is more important than the machine especially at the lower end of the market.


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

rdpx said:


> To find an explanation I googled it for you:
> 
> "Pressurised Baskets (sometimes referred to as double wall baskets) consist of a standard mesh base followed by another 'wall' which has generally one small hole in which the extraction is forced through. This creates a greater level of pressure within the basket when brewing occurs. Commonly pressurised baskets can be found with most entry-level home espresso machines.
> 
> ...


Thanks for looking up the answer for me.

OK, so the pressurized is a good feature and also has a benefit of tolerating the less precise ground coffee. I also thought that the pressure would produce the crema, or it's not related, the crema maybe produced with either pressurized or normal machines.



ashcroc said:


> Yep I'm not denying it can be a big outlay especially if buying new. I got lucky with a dirt cheap 2nd hand unused MDF which had been sitting in a cupboard ever since it had been given as a wedding pressy. It did the job until I'd saved up for something better.
> 
> If you want to keep using your blade grinder that's fine but you'll likely need to use a pressurised basket to get anything close to a decent cup. The grinder is more important than the machine especially at the lower end of the market.


Yes, exactly. Alright, I found this grinder on Amazon, I saw a high rating for this one:

https://www.amazon.com/JavaPresse-Manual-Coffee-Grinder-Stainless/dp/B013R3Q7B2/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1521407876&sr=1-1-spons&keywords=coffee+grinder&psc=1

What do you think?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think, without being funny, that perhaps you need to hang around the forum a bit longer and perhaps read up on the coffee discussions. there are no corners to be cut! A good hand grinder is not the same as a cheap hand grinder.A cheap on will give you very inconsistent results, but, that may not worry you. I would spend my $350 or some of it on the right grinder, as it is more important than the machine, especially at this stage of your education. Consistency gives you repeatability. There is a reason why people spend so much on their equipment and it is not always just a status symbol although I accept that happens. If you enjoy your current coffee method, although quite how you grind down to that consistency in post 28 is interesting......the grind must be really hot? A half decent burr grinder will produce you 20 gms in 5 to 20 seconds, and do it time after time


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Blade grinders aren't much good for any brewing method. There are a number of small conical burr grinders about that will do a decent job but not on an espresso machine as your likely to find that they wont grind as fine as you are likely to need.

People have probably already mentioned that the best budget items will be Sage / Breville - machine and grinder. Maybe the Duo-Temp and the Dose Control grinder. Maybe the Barista Express which has a built in grinder. Some avoid that and go for the separate grinder for more settings but the one on the Barista Express has a restricted range for espresso. More steps on it might be more ideal but can't say that this has really caused me any problems on mine. In some ways the cloth has to be cut to suite people's budget but there comes a point where things just wont work out.

One thing you should bear in mind is that these machines don't drive themselves. They have a learning curve.







I sometimes feel that espresso machines are a little like one of my other interests. Model making using machine tools. People wake up one morning and decide they want to make steam engine or what ever so buy a lathe. 2 problems - there are several models available and sold in fair numbers that wont really be suitable what ever they do and then comes the problem of learning to use them.

John

-


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

les24preludes said:


> I think it's a useful idea to start with a bit of psychology (well, I am a psychologist...). Ask yourself:
> 
> 1. Am I a realistic personality who wants a job done simply and efficiently, no undue fuss?
> 
> ...


Thanks, one of the posts that I've enjoyed reading the most in a long time. I wish somebody had explained the first bit to me when I started out :-D.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Wolfrose unfortunately photos don't give much away. This is the difference between a ~28 second shot and a 19 second shot.


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

ajohn said:


> Blade grinders aren't much good for any brewing method. There are a number of small conical burr grinders about that will do a decent job but not on an espresso machine as your likely to find that they wont grind as fine as you are likely to need.
> 
> People have probably already mentioned that the best budget items will be Sage / Breville - machine and grinder. Maybe the Duo-Temp and the Dose Control grinder. Maybe the Barista Express which has a built in grinder. Some avoid that and go for the separate grinder for more settings but the one on the Barista Express has a restricted range for espresso. More steps on it might be more ideal but can't say that this has really caused me any problems on mine. In some ways the cloth has to be cut to suite people's budget but there comes a point where things just wont work out.
> 
> ...


Yes, of course. Well, almost everyday I drink my coffee as a boiled pour with one spoon of coffee and just pour the boiled water and I get a very tasty bold coffee. I'm not so interested in the espresso, because it would be so bitter than a black coffee, but maybe for the cappuccino and the other cool receipts.

If it was at; like, easy price $50-80, then it would be OK, but going to +$350 is just holding me back of purchasing with a burr grinder, that's a lot of money to me. I just want to take the right decision.

I'm watching this video:

[video=youtube;1-GYTJREc0c]





[/QUOTE]

Well, it's very nice coffee, I think they're different blends, they look so fine. I think that's an espresso fine. They both look delicious







I'm in love already LOL.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

wolfrose said:


> Yes, of course. Well, almost everyday I drink my coffee as a boiled pour with one spoon of coffee and just pour the boiled water and I get a very tasty bold coffee. I'm not so interested in the espresso, because it would be so bitter than a black coffee, but maybe for the cappuccino and the other cool receipts.
> 
> If it was at; like, easy price $50-80, then it would be OK, but going to +$350 is just holding me back of purchasing with a burr grinder, that's a lot of money to me. I just want to take the right decision.
> 
> ...


The barista express has a burr grinder included.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

wolfrose said:


> Yes, of course. Well, almost everyday I drink my coffee as a boiled pour with one spoon of coffee and just pour the boiled water and I get a very tasty bold coffee. I'm not so interested in the espresso, because it would be so bitter than a black coffee, but maybe for the cappuccino and the other cool receipts.
> 
> If it was at; like, easy price $50-80, then it would be OK, but going to +$350 is just holding me back of purchasing with a burr grinder, that's a lot of money to me. I just want to take the right decision.
> 
> ...


I would listen to another comment on here that said a similar thing to what I am going to say (but I'm going to add a little reinforcement).

Wait a while (2 or 3 months) and read the forum, do the research, read some of my reviews on the Bella Barista web site (which are very educational). *At the moment you know so little, you have absolutely no idea what you don't know and what there is to learn.*

*
*

For an initial start and a bit of light reading try this site (it's mine, it's where I dump any reviews done in wordpress)...specifically the Lelit Mara review which has some nice videos and a review of the internals.

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

If you want to understand a bit more about grinders, read my review of compact grinders done some years ago for Bella Barista and my Niche grinder review done last year on their prototype. All educational.

Compact grinders review https://tinyurl.com/ybqaozwu

Niche Grinder https://tinyurl.com/yd5j4gr3


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

I liked the nanopresso and the minipresso, which one is the best?


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

wolfrose said:


> 2. I have a little question about the shot, how many pulls I can get in one shot? Because I see they only do one pull of one shot of brewed coffee. I think it's a waste of like 18 g of coffee. Can I do another pull of the same shot?


All the above advice is good for your first question.

As to the second - One "dose" = one "shot"....

Whatever coffee method you use - Espresso, Pourover, French press etc

I don't think anybody (on this forum or elsewhere) would seriously consider re-using coffee grounds!


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

Drewster said:


> All the above advice is good for your first question.
> 
> As to the second - One "dose" = one "shot"....
> 
> ...


Couldn't I just take another shot with the same coffee? Because with 1 spoon of coffee I get a rich bold cup of coffee for pourover.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There is nowt left in a dose of coffee once you have brewed. It has been stripped of tastyness and good stuff.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

wolfrose said:


> Couldn't I just take another shot with the same coffee? Because with 1 spoon of coffee I get a rich bold cup of coffee for pourover.


You can, if you want. But, you're likely to find the result heads towards overriding bitterness. Only a certain proportion of the grounds can be dissolved in water & if we dissolve all of that we end up with a drying, smokey, bitter cup. Whatever the brew method we usually aim to dissolve enough of the ground coffee to provide a pleasant & balanced flavour (not sour/acidic/bilious & not overly drying & bitter). The common way to do this is to change grind setting - grinding finer let's you dissolve more, until you go too fine and you start dissolving less again.

Also, as you dissolve more from the dose, what you can get out get's harder to dissolve...so you can spend a lot of effort trying to dissolve maybe a tenth more ground coffee & this can be enough to ruin your cup.

You put more water through the dose in pourover, so the grind has to be coarser to stop you pulling too much out of the dose. For espresso, we push less water through the dose & to balance the cup, we need to grind finer. If you feel short changed with a little cup of espresso from 18g, get that little cup tasting good from 1 pull, then top up with hot water to dilute & get a bigger drink (or stick to pourover).


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## Beeroclock (Aug 10, 2015)

Drewster said:


> All the above advice is good for your first question.
> 
> As to the second - One "dose" = one "shot"....
> 
> ...


Hi Wolfrose

this seems to be a bit of sticking point for you - despite people trying to explain it to you, I think there are some fundamental principles of extraction that you haven't yet grasped.

Why don't you experiment for yourself though...and see how you like the results - if to your taste the result is fine - then there's your answer.

Cheers Phil


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

MWJB said:


> You can, if you want. But, you're likely to find the result heads towards overriding bitterness. Only a certain proportion of the grounds can be dissolved in water & if we dissolve all of that we end up with a drying, smokey, bitter cup. Whatever the brew method we usually aim to dissolve enough of the ground coffee to provide a pleasant & balanced flavour (not sour/acidic/bilious & not overly drying & bitter). The common way to do this is to change grind setting - grinding finer let's you dissolve more, until you go too fine and you start dissolving less again.
> 
> Also, as you dissolve more from the dose, what you can get out get's harder to dissolve...so you can spend a lot of effort trying to dissolve maybe a tenth more ground coffee & this can be enough to ruin your cup.
> 
> You put more water through the dose in pourover, so the grind has to be coarser to stop you pulling too much out of the dose. For espresso, we push less water through the dose & to balance the cup, we need to grind finer. If you feel short changed with a little cup of espresso from 18g, get that little cup tasting good from 1 pull, then top up with hot water to dilute & get a bigger drink (or stick to pourover).


Your explanation is pretty amazing, of how the taste of the coffee is changing by the preparing method. And the balancing strategy of pouring more water or pull the balanced amount of water for espresso, more water means american coffee style.



Beeroclock said:


> Hi Wolfrose
> 
> this seems to be a bit of sticking point for you - despite people trying to explain it to you, I think there are some fundamental principles of extraction that you haven't yet grasped.
> 
> ...


You're absolutely right, I decided to get a nanopresso, I felt it's a big step to buy a machine for over $300. But the nanopresso isn't that cheap, it's around $60, so it's pretty pricey there









Now I'm just thinking of what best tool for milk frothing, should I get the little spinning device, french press or the electric liquid heaters for milk frothing?

I think the french press has more advantages, as I can prepare a french or american coffee plus it also good for milk frothing.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

wolfrose said:


> Now I'm just thinking of what best tool for milk frothing, should I get the little spinning device, french press or the electric liquid heaters for milk frothing?
> 
> I think the french press has more advantages, as I can prepare a french or american coffee plus it also good for milk frothing.


Well, I heat my milk in the microwave but I'm a bit lowbrow....

I should probably keep this a secret on a site like this....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

les24preludes said:


> Well, I heat my milk in the microwave but I'm a bit lowbrow....
> 
> I should probably keep this a secret on a site like this....


You know you have that metal tube thing coming out of the side of your machine ....


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> You know you have that metal tube thing coming out of the side of your machine ....


What metal tube? Which one?


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

wolfrose said:


> What metal tube? Which one?


Think he's talking about the steam are on @les24preludes classic.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Think he's talking about the steam arm on @les24preludes classic.


indeed.... I WILL get around to frothing milk. I will, I will....


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

les24preludes said:


> indeed.... I WILL get around to frothing milk. I will, I will....


It's a bit of a black art but oh so satisfying when you pull it together.


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## wolfrose (Mar 16, 2018)

I want to ask about milk frothing, is it good to ask in this thread or open a new one?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

wolfrose said:


> I want to ask about milk frothing, is it good to ask in this thread or open a new one?


Either


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## LoraMoser (Nov 28, 2019)

I jumped into the deep end of the espresso pool about 3 years ago so I know what it's like to be in your shoes. The most important thing is to figure out exactly what you want out of coffee before spending any $. It's really easy to waste $ buying equipment that will not produce what you want. The first step is research. Espresso is all about the equipment: grinder, espresso maker, steamer. So if you go down that road you want to be absolutely sure you buy the correct equipment for your needs, otherwise it could be expensive lesson.

Read reviews and try to purchase from a store with a generous return policy. I initially bought a $1,000 Saeco super automatic from Whole Latte Love. It was super easy to to use, but the espresso was mediocre. I was able to return it after using it for a few weeks in exchange for a semi automatic Breville dual boiler and Baratza grinder.

Go here:

https://www.home-barista.com/

http://coffeegeek.com/


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Love a good old morning link. With my V60


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Jony said:


> Love a good old morning link. With my V60


On a necropost to boot!


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## Deidre (Aug 13, 2019)

LoraMoser said:


> I jumped into the deep end of the espresso pool about 3 years ago so I know what it's like to be in your shoes. The most important thing is to figure out exactly what you want out of coffee before spending any $. It's really easy to waste $ buying equipment that will not produce what you want. The first step is research. Espresso is all about the equipment: grinder, espresso maker, steamer. So if you go down that road you want to be absolutely sure you buy the correct equipment for your needs, otherwise it could be expensive lesson.
> 
> Read reviews and try to purchase from a store with a generous return policy. I initially bought a $1,000 Saeco super automatic from Whole Latte Love. It was super easy to to use, but the espresso was mediocre. I was able to return it after using it for a few weeks in exchange for a semi automatic Breville dual boiler and Baratza grinder.
> 
> ...


 Welcome to the coffee craziness, @LoraMoser! Swapping up to the DB right away avoids a lot of "upraditis", a very smart choice! ?☕


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