# Espresso - Did the Italians basically get it right or did they get it wrong?



## RoloD

This is an ongoing discusssion (which I've probably bored too many with already) but, as I've said before, the espresso world seems to divide into those who think the Italians got it right and those who think they got it wrong.

Like many here, I suspect, I got into espresso by drinking it in Italy, loving it and wanting to reproduce that experience back home. But the influence of (predominantly) Australia and New Zealand have produced a very different coffee culture in the UK - the lighter, brighter fruitier roasts of the 'third wave roasters'. There is a huge difference between the old-style Italian roasters (like, say, Drury) and modern roasters like HasBean and Square Mile. I think Italians would be quite shocked (or at least very surprised) by the espresso that is fashionable here now. I'm raising this argument again because I think many coming to this forum for the first time may not be aware quite how diverse these different approaches to beans and roasting are.

Italians (and for that matter France, Portugal and Spain) predominantly drink espresso. Cappucino in Italy is something you only drink at breakfast and if you ask for a 'latte' you get a glass of milk. A lot of the 'third wave' roasting culture is geared towards milk-based drinks and many of these coffees, for me, just don't work in espresso. Some of the foundations of the Italian approach - high roast, a 10% to 20% - are scorned at here (high roast, we are told, is there to disguise poor beans, robusta is included because it is cheap), yet I still have some respect for them. I like Italian espresso. Having said that, it does seem the more you get into coffee, the better you get at making it, the more it seems you begin to appreciate the lighter roasts (what Union call 'extra dark' is now far too dark for me). And Italian espresso has now seems to be set as a traditional, standardised product where it seems there is little room for innovation.

Go into a fashionable third-wave coffee shop with a liking for Italian-style espresso and you get branded a heretic or, at best, ignorant and unsophisticated. If I was cynical, II'd say the whole contempory barista culture depends on more 'difficult' lighter roasts, sophisticated high-tec machines which can be coaxed and tweaked to get the best out the beans, and dosages that have gone from the traditional Italian 7g for a single to 18g or 20g per drink (and that must keep the roasters and machine suppliers happy). Curiously, the technology remains predominantly Italian even if what goes in and comes out of the machines could be the product of a different planet altogether.

What I would like to see is coffee shops acknowledging the vast gulf between the Italian and Antipodean approaches to coffee and offering customers a choice and offering the Italian approach without its associated complacency.

Anyone else agree?


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## bronc

It makes quite a lot of sense. I don't think Italians during the 20th century drank espressos with light fruity and acidic flavors. Judging by my country (Bulgaria) people here perceive good coffee as bitter and strong which would be more the Italian dark roasted coffee. I'm in the process of purchasing a popcorn popper to roast my own beans and all of this is amazingly interesting and cool! And my girlfriend tells me that I'm crazy for spending so much time on (one of) my hobby (ies). You guys are amazing!


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## shrink

an interesting topic indeed, and one i'll be following closely. My feeling has always been that the italian route brings you to places like Costa and Nero. Where bitter coffee is the word of the day. That said, on a very basic level (e.g. it tastes kind like nice coffee), I've always enjoyed independant places serving lavazza coffee, which although strong, comes off as smooth and easy going.

As someone who has never enjoyed an overly heavy, bitter coffee, I find a lot to enjoy in this new wave of artisan coffee's and some are surprisingly forgiving in terms of technique and equipment. I didnt get a single bad shot out of my Extract espresso, some better than others, but none bad.

I'll keep an eye on this topic as I'm curious what other people feel about this.


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## aphelion

Very interesting discussion

I do think we need to move with the times..

Certainly technology and understanding has moved on from traditional times..

But, we shouldn't lose track of its origins (usually a classic becomes a classic for a reason).

I think there is a place for everybody though


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## Sam__G

RoloD said:


> . I think Italians would be quite shocked (or at least very surprised) by the espresso that is fashionable here now. I'm raising this argument again because I think many coming to this forum for the first time may not be aware quite how diverse these different approaches to beans and roasting are.


Worth noting that the 2011 Italian barista championship was won using Hasbean beans...

I see where you are coming from to be honest, however, I do like Hasbean espresso and I don't know anybody that tries their coffee (usually in milk) that doesn't like it when served in a decent shop...

Steve doesn't roast for espresso nor for brewed, he just roasts to what he feels brings the best out of the beans- yes its going to be more suited to one method than the other- but i like that approach, retaining as much of the beans characteristics as possible.

Its home espresso that I do not see a place for but thats another matter!


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## aphelion

Sam__G said:


> Its home espresso that I do not see a place for but thats another matter!


Interesting, why not?


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## RoloD

Sam__G said:


> I don't know anybody that tries their coffee (usually in milk) that doesn't like it when served in a decent shop...


 That's strange, because my experience is exactly the opposite (even if they feel ashamed to admit it)


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## shrink

perhaps he's suggesting that its simply not a drink he associates with home use. I certainly don't. If i make a coffee at home, its to enjoy it over the course of a reasonable amount of time, perhaps with a paper or some music on. I don't want a 2 sips and its gone drink. If i ever drink espresso (which is rare) its a late morning pick me up!


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## aaronb

I have had a good coffee from an Italian Roast, but for me coffee came alive when I discovered Has Bean a good few years ago now and the much lighter roasts than my old-school supplier who roasted very dark blends with no roast dates and stored them in metal containers like they had been doing for 30+ years.

FWIW I never drink milk based drinks and I do think theirs wave beans work well in espresso, and there's a good few coffeeshops pulling shots with this type of bean where the customers love it.

I do get that some people much prefer a darker roast though, but I wander if there is enough demand for shops to offer both?


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## Sam__G

aphelion said:


> Interesting, why not?


Cost and size mostly... A machine any bigger than a classic/silvia seems excessive in all but the biggest kitchens and for the amount of money that you can spend on a relatively basic setup (like mine for example) you can buy an excellent brewed setup and a shedload of beans.

I am rather partial to brewtus' however- maybe I'm just bitter cause I'm a poor student and if I'm spending over a grand on something its gonna be something bike related! Yeah its probably that!



RoloD said:


> That's strange, because my experience is exactly the opposite (even if they feel ashamed to admit it)


Fair play then! London third wave places I've been to can have an air of pretension that I can imagine is fairly off-putting to lots which may have an effect? (thats not meant to sound as bad as it probably does! Just wondering whats behind the differing views)


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## garydyke1

Its not a case of did the Italians get it right or wrong. The questiion is what is relevant for today...Ive been to italy several times and enjoyed the espresso, 90% it requires sugar and/or a cake. To me it could be any coffee bean, I wouldnt be able to tell the difference at that roast level.

Times change , palates change, quality improves. The focus moves to unique qualities to be found when exploring coffee. No longer should we be sourcing 'good brazils' , we should be seeking the best single estates, the best farmers, the single varietals.

Evolution of the consumable - Its happening everywhere, look at craft beers ( Single Hop IPAs etc) and the shift from the stifled CAMRA 'real ale/old man' assumptions . To a degree wine (its not just about Chardonnay anymore, people like Torrontes and Viognier etc)...and people eat meat rare, not cooked into boot leather...veg gets cooked still green and crunchy not obliterated!....and beans not roasted to charcoal.......sometimes

But back to coffee, history aside, at the end of the day it is a drink, . Palate dictates. Some people cannot tollorate bitterness (I am one), having a sensitive palate. Some people cannot tollorate acidity and brightness. There is no right and wrong.

To me and my amateur mouth anything roasted dark ends up generic , it could be a simple £4 bag or a crazy complex £15 quid bag - it will taste roasty, choc, caramel and bitter. Yet if handled correctly, the more complex bean will give me a full range of flavours - bass, middle and treble. A balance of sweet, acidity, mouthfeel , length, finish (this may include bitter and sour not always bad things)....

Do you want to taste the roasters influence , or do you want to taste the raw ingredient - the bean, its terrior, flavours and aromas?

In terms of equipment, espresso machinesmight not have a changed a great deal, i'm not sure they need to so much but grinders definately need some research! They are rubbish, even the top end ones!


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## forzajuve

RoloD said:


> A lot of the 'third wave' roasting culture is geared towards milk-based drinks and many of these coffees, for me, just don't work in espresso.


I understand this is your preference but I must disagree that the third wave is geared towards milky drinks. In fact it is the opposite. The more delicate flavours are often lost in milk and they are best found in espresso. The darker the roast in general the more the flavour cuts through milk holding the taste. Steve at Has Bean almost every week bangs on about this and how he has gone off milk altogether for that reason.

Having said that there is definitely a place for the old roasting style (as long as it doesn't go too far towards charcoal). Fashion dictates the lighter roast at the moment but I'm sure there will be a swing the other way if only to differentiate from the current burst of lightly roasted offerings.


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## Spazbarista

I think it is a false dilemma. They are both right as it is a matter of taste.

The Italians do coffee exceptionally well, albeit within narrow confines. If I add up the amount of time I have spent in Italy, it is approaching a full year. I have never had an awful coffee in that time. Not one. Most of the time they have been near perfect extractions.

Personally, as you all know, light fruity espresso doesn't do it for me unless in milk in which case it can be excellent.


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## garydyke1

Expobarista said:


> I have never had an awful coffee in that time. Not one. Most of the time they have been near perfect extractions.


Will come to you for tips next time we are over there. Turin and Genoa are on our list. Everytime i've been (Florence, Rome, Venice, Sorrento) the drinks have been extremely variable.


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## Spazbarista

Just stay out of the tourist holes, Gary.

Try a railway station


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## IanP

I agree Gary. Taste and context is what it's about really in my view. Only once or twice had Italian pizza made in small non touristy places.... Wafer thin, tomato paste and mozzarella with fresh sweet basil leaves torn and strewn over. Piping hot from a couple of minutes in the wood oven. Nothing like any UK Pizza joint serves, but I still enjoy good specimens of the UK pizza.

I think most Italian espresso is meant to be the bitter black shot (with much Robusta) enlivened WITH sugar. A hurried intake of caffeine and glucose to pick you up and keep you going! More functional than gourmet.

NZ, Aus and UK artisan coffee would appear to be OUR way of doing things, aiming for a really pleasurable drink with a variety of flavours, finishes etc....

Both equally good but different. Just try an espresso in Bar Italia in London with one in a boutique specialist coffee house.......


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## garydyke1

Ive done my research on the 'top shops' in those places (ie not tourist traps) and the results , like I said, were extremely variable..ranging from 'OK with sugar' to 'jesus christ a dirty portafilter no tamp and no crema'


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## garydyke1

IanP said:


> INZ, Aus and UK artisan coffee would appear to be OUR way of doing things, aiming for a really pleasurable drink with a variety of flavours, finishes etc....
> 
> Both equally good but different. Just try an espresso in Bar Italia in London with one in a boutique specialist coffee house.......


Lets not forget that Hungary, Sweden, Denmark have been doing things the '3rd wave' way for a while and even Berlin, and, dare I say it, Paris are cottoning on with Telescope and the like....


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## bronc

If any of you know any Italians you can ask them about their opinion. It would be interesting to hear the other side of the story as well.


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## Spazbarista

Italians are very conservative.

Espresso in Italy is like builders tea in UK. Offer a builder a Lapsang Souchong and he'll tell you to fuck off.

Coffee in Italy IS espresso, or moka pot at home. Most of them wouldn't be open to trying brewed coffee or tart espresso, I suspect.


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## Spazbarista

garydyke1 said:


> Ive done my research on the 'top shops' in those places (ie not tourist traps) and the results , like I said, were extremely variable..ranging from 'OK with sugar' to 'jesus christ a dirty portafilter no tamp and no crema'


You should have gone to the railway station


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## vintagecigarman

It's also my general experience that you never get a bad espresso at an Italian railway station - whether it's in a busy city centre or in a one-horse town. And even in cities like Rome, Venice and Florence it's invariably the cheapest in town as well.


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## Spazbarista

I think also you have to think about what you are comparing it to. I'll be honest, in the UK, I wouldn't dare order a naked espresso.

Milk can cover a multitude of sins.


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## RoloD

IanP said:


> Just try an espresso in Bar Italia in London with one in a boutique specialist coffee house.......


Funny you should say that.. I went to a coffee bar in Soho the other day with a friend and found they had switched from Climpsons to HasBean Jailbreak. I protested, and the barista (bless her) gave me a free shot of espresso to try. It was as disappointing as the Jailbreak I've brewed at home. My friend hated it. We thanked her and headed off to Bar Italia.

Yes, you are right (Expobar) it is a false dilemma - except there does seem to be an assumption on the part of new, independent, committed coffee shops that bright and fruity is the only way to go. And I'm not convinced this 'evolution in taste' is driven by public demand.

As you say, in the end it comes down to personal preference. I happen to like bitter and hate sour. I'd like some 'serious' coffee shops to look again at the Italian tradition, particularly for espresso drinkers.


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## RisingPower

I'm just curious, do you mean italian style roasts, or just richer, earthier coffees like a lot of indonesian coffees?


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## lookseehear

My experience of espresso in Italy is limited to a trip to Rome in 2011. I found that being able to walk into almost any shop and buy an espresso I could drink (for €1!) was nothing short of revolutionary. I would love for high streets in the UK to be able to match this, regardless of what beans they are using.

That said. Not one espresso I had there came close to some of the espresso I've had in shops in London (or even at home!). To me espresso in Italy in one word is consistent. No troughs but no real peaks either.

I don't like the idea that third wave coffee (I hate the term 'third wave' too) is milk oriented. The whole point is to show what coffee can taste like with the right care from green bean to cup and I stand by that. I also really don't agree that 'espresso drinkers' don't buy from HB/SQM/other 'third wave' roaster - that's nonsense.

That said - one of the worst espressos I've been served in recent memory was hasbean beans in a 'top' London coffee shop (I won't say where - I'll put it down to a bad day). Some of the best espresso I've had has come from Hasbean beans too.

Ultimately I don't see why everyone cares so much whether 'trendy' coffee shops tell you your taste in espresso is right or not. If a shop is making espresso with beans that aren't to your tastes then move on. If they didn't have enough people enjoying the coffee they wouldn't stay in business, simple as that. It's a matter of preference and preference of the general public is changing over time. As long as there is a roaster out there selling freshly roasted coffee to my tastes then I'm happy.


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## fatboyslim

lookseehear said:


> That said - one of the worst espressos I've been served in recent memory was hasbean beans in a 'top' London coffee shop (I won't say where - I'll put it down to a bad day). Some of the best espresso I've had has come from Hasbean beans too.


Was I present for this worst espresso?


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## Spazbarista

I think I pretty much agree with everything Lookseehear has said, with the proviso that I have had many coffees in Italy that have really hit the spot but he is right about the consistency, and part of that consistency is due to their conservative tendencies and an unwillingness to try anything different.

Personally, I find the third wave espresso's I've tried to be bordering on the revolting, but that doesn't mean I'm anti. It's just not to my taste. I think I started feeling a lot less militant about it when I realised that some people actually like the rank filth I was getting out of my extractions.









Can I just ask about this Antipodean stuff. People seem to be attributing the light acidic thing to them. Never having been there, I am led to believe that they dont go so much for light and fruity, and that this is really coming from the States??

Anyone been to Oz/Nz recently?


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## RoloD

RisingPower said:


> I'm just curious, do you mean italian style roasts, or just richer, earthier coffees like a lot of indonesian coffees?


If that's addressed to me - Perhaps the crucial thing is I prefer low-acidity coffee and chocolate/nuts/tobacco rather than fruit. Yes, I do like Indonesian beans, and though I favour darker-than-HasBean roasts, I don't like them too dark (Northern Italian rather than Southern Italian). For example, I found the recent Union Sumatran over-roasted wheareas the Londinium Sumatran was spot on. Perhaps the crucial thing is I go for low-acidity coffee.


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## lookseehear

fatboyslim said:


> Was I present for this worst espresso?


Hmmm perhaps ?


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## RisingPower

RoloD said:


> If that's addressed to me - Perhaps the crucial thing is I prefer low-acidity coffee and chocolate/nuts/tobacco rather than fruit. Yes, I do like Indonesian beans, and though I favour darker-than-HasBean roasts, I don't like them too dark (Northern Italian rather than Southern Italian). For example, I found the recent Union Sumatran over-roasted wheareas the Londinium Sumatran was spot on. Perhaps the crucial thing is I go for low-acidity coffee.


Yeah the only problem is the majority of coffee steve has is south american, just don't think those varieties are richer, earthier coffees normally. Just hoping he'll get a batch of malabar this year.

I also found the union sumatran burnt to blandness, but then again I'd roast the greens from hasbean less.

I really don't think it's the roast, it's the bean.


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## Xpenno

I like good coffee no matter what the origin, to me good coffee is good coffee.

I've enjoyed some cracking espresso in France and Italy and I've enjoyed some cracking hasbean blends at my local shop. I have various blends in my kitchen.

I suppose my conclusion is choice is a good thing, its a good time to be a coffee drinker.

Spence


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## sjenner

RoloD said:


> This is an ongoing discusssion (which I've probably bored too many with already) but, as I've said before, the espresso world seems to divide into those who think the Italians got it right and those who think they got it wrong.
> 
> Like many here, I suspect, I got into espresso by drinking it in Italy, loving it and wanting to reproduce that experience back home. But the influence of (predominantly) Australia and New Zealand have produced a very different coffee culture in the UK - the lighter, brighter fruitier roasts of the 'third wave roasters'. There is a huge difference between the old-style Italian roasters (like, say, Drury) and modern roasters like HasBean and Square Mile. I think Italians would be quite shocked (or at least very surprised) by the espresso that is fashionable here now. I'm raising this argument again because I think many coming to this forum for the first time may not be aware quite how diverse these different approaches to beans and roasting are.
> 
> Italians (and for that matter France, Portugal and Spain) predominantly drink espresso. Cappucino in Italy is something you only drink at breakfast and if you ask for a 'latte' you get a glass of milk. A lot of the 'third wave' roasting culture is geared towards milk-based drinks and many of these coffees, for me, just don't work in espresso. Some of the foundations of the Italian approach - high roast, a 10% to 20% - are scorned at here (high roast, we are told, is there to disguise poor beans, robusta is included because it is cheap), yet I still have some respect for them. I like Italian espresso. Having said that, it does seem the more you get into coffee, the better you get at making it, the more it seems you begin to appreciate the lighter roasts (what Union call 'extra dark' is now far too dark for me). And Italian espresso has now seems to be set as a traditional, standardised product where it seems there is little room for innovation.
> 
> Go into a fashionable third-wave coffee shop with a liking for Italian-style espresso and you get branded a heretic or, at best, ignorant and unsophisticated. If I was cynical, II'd say the whole contempory barista culture depends on more 'difficult' lighter roasts, sophisticated high-tec machines which can be coaxed and tweaked to get the best out the beans, and dosages that have gone from the traditional Italian 7g for a single to 18g or 20g per drink (and that must keep the roasters and machine suppliers happy). Curiously, the technology remains predominantly Italian even if what goes in and comes out of the machines could be the product of a different planet altogether.
> 
> What I would like to see is coffee shops acknowledging the vast gulf between the Italian and Antipodean approaches to coffee and offering customers a choice and offering the Italian approach without its associated complacency.
> 
> Anyone else agree?


Have you tried many of these "Italian" blends Roland?

During the weekend, I was in a family restaurant for lunch, Lorenzo's in Crystal Palace... I had an espresso afterwards, and I don't know whether it was because the guy knew his stuff, or what, but it was very good.

I asked him what it was and he muttered something about it being "gwilimo" from the south, or something, and as I left he handed me a bag of beans, around 100g, I took it home... it gives great crema in the Londinium Lever and I was not mistaken, it was still nice, tar, tobacco and dark flavours, rather than bright acidic stuff.

I got onto 't net and discovered from a long list that I found, that it was Guglielmo, and the importer is around 2 miles from my house... Further enquiries found me outside a semi-detached house talking to the wife... So I have placed an order, to see how consistent it is...

Anyway, it got me wondering where one goes (other than Italy) to find blends other than Illy or Lavazza, hence my question...

BTW: I (even with my lack of experience with making my own espresso) tend to agree with your contention above, it is now just a matter of tasting some of the others.


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## RoloD

Well, there's Drury, very much old school, who roast in London and have about 14 different espresso blends. Most will be far too dark for members of this forum, but I used to like ther Café Siena. I say 'used to', as I find my own tastes are drifting away from the high roast beans, but I still don't like the acidic/light roast beans many others favour. Angelucci are the family who roast for Bar Italia (but they no longer have their little shop in Soho) and have the dubious privilege of having a name check in a Dire Straits song.

It also depends on what machine you have and your own skills. Certainly traditional Italian blends are 'easier' - some of the fruitier coffees can taste really terrible if you get the parameters wrong. I've found the Londinium I brings out so many flavours in the coffee you are much more aware of over-roasted coffee tasting 'burnt', whereas if you are using a stove-top espresso pot you want something robust and funky to survive the process.

I found a happy medium in Londinium beans - not over roasted, but never acidic, but I'm disturbed that Reiss in his blog says they turning to lighter roast 'brighter, fruitier coffees' (although that does make sense given my comments above).


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## decoherent

I am Italian and I've been trying a lot of UK roasters in the belief that if you order espresso beans you were going to get the thing you named. Now I know better...

Thanks immensely for the list of "traditional" roasters in this thread. I hope they can finally put me out of the misery of having to drink filtered coffee "ristretto"


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## RoloD

decoherent said:


> I am Italian and I've been trying a lot of UK roasters in the belief that if you order espresso beans you were going to get the thing you named. Now I know better...
> 
> Thanks immensely for the list of "traditional" roasters in this thread. I hope they can finally put me out of the misery of having to drink filtered coffee "ristretto"


I should also mention Happy Donkey Classic Italian - these are a bargain at £4.65 for 500g - they contain 30% Robusta and are roasted pretty dark, which will immediately turn a lot of people off, but I know many who love these beans.


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## sjenner

You can buy Angelucci beans next door to their old shop in "Bar Barista" as well as going to their East Finchley roastery, and yes I agree with you Roland about Reiss's Londinium beans... He does, after all, manufacture the machine that we use his beans on. I have (so far) only tried his Brazil Yellow Rainha (which I really liked) and his new "Mocha" 50% each Yemen and Java Blawan which has quite an odd sort of aftertaste. I will give Happy Donkey a go too.

My question was really about "Italian Blends"... or Blends from Italy (more accurately) of which the "Guglielmo" is one...

http://www.caffeguglielmo.it

...I found this one by complete accident and with the assistance of a friendly restaurant owner.


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## RoloD

If we are talking about 'Italian blends' we should really make a disticntion between north and south Italy - things get a lot darker as you go south (and in Naples, of course, you will almost always get your shot pulled from a lever machine)


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## sjenner

RoloD said:


> If we are talking about 'Italian blends' we should really make a disticntion between north and south Italy - things get a lot darker as you go south (and in Naples, of course, you will almost always get your shot pulled from a lever machine)


Villaggio Guglielmo is very much from the "sole" of Italy...









Illy and Lavazza from the north... Illy is from Trieste, almost in Slovenia. I was thinking of nipping over there in March, I hate the winter here and by then I wake up screaming (metaphorically of course). I was thinking of Sicily originally, but being drawn to Puglia or Naples, I have heard bad things about Naples, though the wife went there in 1972 and said it was fine, despite their fabled reputation for chucking their kids in front of your moving car.


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## RoloD

Naples is great! A bit wild and corrupt, but a fascinating city with very few tourists.

And if you want to find out what pizza is really about...


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## fatboyslim

RoloD said:


> Naples is great! A bit wild and corrupt, but a fascinating city with very few tourists.
> 
> And if you want to find out what pizza is really about...


I was lucky enough to go to Napoli during Pizza week. Simply epic!

I think most of the cafes used Moreno beans which were ridiculously dark with a big robusta content but somehow all the shots were ludicrously well balanced.

Also don't forget the huge Mafia family in Naples. Think they are called the Camora or something.

Always useful to know who to pay protection money to


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## decoherent

RoloD said:


> I should also mention Happy Donkey Classic Italian - these are a bargain at £4.65 for 500g - they contain 30% Robusta and are roasted pretty dark, which will immediately turn a lot of people off, but I know many who love these beans.


Thanks RoloD.

I ordered or bag of Roma from Drury before you posted and will try the one you suggested next, as 1kg bags are really too big to keep coffee fresh the full month it will take me to consume it.

My opinion is that the point is not if Italians got right or wrong. The issue is a semantic one. Espresso is one of those things that got lost in translation. Espresso is not a drink for Italians whilst anything liquid is a drink for Angloasaxons with the results that the "tea culture" has been applied to something having originally nothing to do with tea.

Talk about bouquet or citrus referring to espresso to an Italian and he/her will give you a tea with lemon or milk realising you are not Italian even if you had a perfect accent 

Now you can call espresso the extraction process, as this is the same, but you can't call espresso the result if you don't use espresso roasted beans. The experience is totally different the same way you will get different experiences eating a piece of veal or beef both being oven baked.

And I have to disagree : proper Italian espresso never tastes bitter or burned or the same everywhere. Unfortunately quality is going generally downhill everywhere, pushed by low wages and tourists being far easier custcustomers than locals.


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## RoloD

decoherent said:


> My opinion is that the point is not if Italians got right or wrong. The issue is a semantic one. Espresso is one of those things that got lost in translation. Espresso is not a drink for Italians whilst anything liquid is a drink for Angloasaxons with the results that the "tea culture" has been applied to something having originally nothing to do with tea....Now you can call espresso the extraction process, as this is the same, but you can't call espresso the result if you don't use espresso roasted beans. The experience is totally different the same way you will get different experiences eating a piece of veal or beef both being oven baked.... proper Italian espresso never tastes bitter or burned or the same everywhere. Unfortunately quality is going generally downhill everywhere, pushed by low wages and tourists being far easier customers than locals.


 This was really why I started this discussion - not to say that one approach to coffee was better than the other, but that they are very different drinks and I think it would be great for coffee shops to acknowledge this and offer a choice, using the care and expertise they have developed on traditional espresso as well as 'third wave' coffee drinks.

There is a sort of elitist attitude within third wave coffee culture that things have 'moved on' since the Italians invented espresso and that if you like that sort of coffee you are unsophisticated or ignorant. That's all I'm arguing against. I think it's great that there is huge amount of experimentation and innovation in coffee culture and I'm certainly not knocking that either.


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## sjenner

fatboyslim said:


> I was lucky enough to go to Napoli during Pizza week. Simply epic!
> 
> I think most of the cafes used Moreno beans which were ridiculously dark with a big robusta content but somehow all the shots were ludicrously well balanced.
> 
> Also don't forget the huge Mafia family in Naples. Think they are called the Camora or something.
> 
> Always useful to know who to pay protection money to


Interesting story from the comic (aka) Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7735026/Pizza-in-Naples-cooked-with-wood-from-coffins.html


----------



## sjenner

fatboyslim said:


> I was lucky enough to go to Napoli during Pizza week. Simply epic!
> 
> I think most of the cafes used Moreno beans which were ridiculously dark with a big robusta content but somehow all the shots were ludicrously well balanced.
> 
> Also don't forget the huge Mafia family in Naples. Think they are called the Camora or something.
> 
> Always useful to know who to pay protection money to


Interesting story from the comic (aka) Daily Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/7735026/Pizza-in-Naples-cooked-with-wood-from-coffins.html


----------



## Maz100

As with all most things, fashions come and go. I'm sure there will be a revival of Italian style espresso amongst those third wavers who have moved on. Reminds me a bit of Chardonnay. Unoaked is the defacto style after the oaked style fell from favour at a time when the market became saturated with poor quality oaked styles. But when you taste a fine example of the style it's easy to seen why it was so popular. So oak/roast can mask the subtleties of grapes/beans but personally I appreciate good examples of each style.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


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## decoherent

Maz100 said:


> As with all most things, fashions come and go. I'm sure there will be a revival of Italian style espresso amongst those third wavers who have moved on. Reminds me a bit of Chardonnay. Unoaked is the defacto style after the oaked style fell from favour at a time when the market became saturated with poor quality oaked styles. But when you taste a fine example of the style it's easy to seen why it was so popular. So oak/roast can mask the subtleties of grapes/beans but personally I appreciate good examples of each style.
> 
> Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2


Yes, to me instead reminds the vinyl "mozzarella" Carluccio's used to sell 10 years ago in London  or what pizza used to be in this town years ago... and the finally Franco Manca came around to set the real standard.

The culprit, in my opinion, is the no-complain British culture... just a matter of time and soon or later real espresso will impose itself finally


----------



## Spazbarista

decoherent said:


> The culprit, in my opinion, is the no-complain British culture... just a matter of time and soon or later real espresso will impose itself finally


I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I think the 'third wave' style cafes tend to take great care with their espresso, far greater than other cafes and probably greater than many or most Italian cafes. The stuff is harder to extract, it only takes a small fault to produce something totally disgusting....as opposed to just disgusting









I don't like it, when Ive had it Ive wondered how anybody can find it pleasant, but equally I have to accept that they do. To not would be arrogant.

I think the real issue in Britain is the rest of the cafes who try to produce Italian style coffe and fail because they don't know what they are doing. I don't drink espresso other than at home because I know what I'll find and it will piss me off.

I like Italian espresso, but it isn't the only thing I like and I think Italian conservatism gets in the way of their own progress a little. For example, you can get some stupendous flavours from a bit of Harrar in the mix that won't result in a challenging cup, but I don't think Italians ever get very far from a Brazil heavy mix.

Finally, a well known UK barista (and a lovely guy to boot) referred in his blog to Italian espresso as comfort food. I wonder about this term for two reasons. Firstly it does have slightly patronising overtones. It is the sort of term you might apply to McDonalds food if comparing it to gourmet cuisine. Secondly, if you are presenting 'third wave' and 'Italian' in opposition, and referring to Italian as comfort food, then it sort of implies that 'challenging third wave espresso is uncomfortable. I certainly find it such, but I think it also hints that perhaps the two factions are wanting different things from the same drink.


----------



## RoloD

Expobarista said:


> Finally, a well known UK barista (and a lovely guy to boot) referred in his blog to Italian espresso as comfort food...


 That's very indicative of a certain patronising attitude, as you suggest. And nonsense (I think the flat white is much more "comforting", but that's another argument).

I think things are not so clear cut. A lot of people I know like the new coffee shops because the attitude and service and care that goes into the drink and food - but they don't actually like the coffee that much. My girlfriend, for example, who is even more negative about acidic light roasts than I am, will happily go into a third wave coffee shop, order a cappucino, fill it up with sugar and drink it down. My expresso drinking friends are much more discerning - and they nearly all come down on the Italian side of the fence. There are so many coffee shops now I think there will be some interesting competition on what the stuff they serve actually tastes like - so I'm quite optimistic about the future.


----------



## decoherent

All true. The fact is that Espresso left this Country in the 70s and its American surrogate has been pushed forward by means of Starsucks' sofas rather than coffee quality. That was easy to replace with anything came after (the so called third wave).

My point is that at the moment the option between espresso and the "third wave drink" is not offered at all to the public.

Only when UK roasters will get back to the roots and will try really to perfection the way more difficult art of dark roasting without spoiling the beans, then the research for innovative blends could start and give place to a real new espresso wave.

It may be some of these pioneers are already around and they are the ones I'm after.

In he main time I prefer to stick with the real thing, even if old and retrograde.


----------



## RoloD

I should add that althoughh I started this conversation, I do enjoy beans from 'third wave' roasters too (as long as they are not too acidic).

For instance last night I had a delicious espresso at Caravan Kings Cross (who have their own roastery - more about that on another thread) - sweet and chocolatey.

But 18g dose into about a 25cc extraction! No wonder roasters encourage this style!


----------



## origmarm

This is a very interesting thread. Certainly I grew up very much in the old tradition of Espresso. I branched into a lot of 'third wave' stuff as my personal interest in it grew but I've found myself gravitating back slowly to more traditional darker roasts. Currently I'm on Union's 'Winter Blend' which is great as it's darker but not too dark. Happy Donkey Italian I gave a shot recently and most of it ended up in the bin. Not necessarily because it's dark but because it's excessively so and features too much Robusta for my tastes. That said I find Hasbean mostly too far on the acidic side and Square Mile can fall into that trap a lot also. I'm thinking that overall it's just acidity I don't like but also excessively dark. Both sides have something to learn from each other here. Union seems to have found a nice balance for my tastes

Horses for courses on this one overall but I take the general point that they are pretty different things and the snobbery/patronising attitudes of third wave places towards more traditional roasts is both misplaced and often at odds with customer's tastes. I think if someone were to do both or do dark roasts properly suddenly it's a different game vs Nero/Costa etc...


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## sjenner

I reckon there is another dimension here which hasn't really been expressed...

(Edit: Apologies, I forgot to quote Expobarista, so although this is a general point it was initially a response to Expobarista's comment).

You state that in Britain the "rest of the cafes fail because they don't know what they are doing...": I am not sure whether you mean the big chains here in particular or what, but I am old enough to remember the Italian places that used to blanket the City and central London in general, like "Chubbies" who had several branches, they were very good for a lunchtime take away sandwich, but I am not so sure of their reputation for good espresso, in fact I seem to remember people used to avoid coffee in these places.

In other words, there is good and bad everywhere, my Lorenzo experience "#33", was unusual enough to remark on it although other people may have better/more/different experience.

The markets will always move to fill any available opportunity, and so the "third wave" may be a response to Nero/Costa/Starbucks/Pret, but they and the disappearance (more or less) of those largely independent Italian sandwich shops... may be leading to a resurgence with the remaining Italian family cafes/small restaurants upping their game...

I am not sure whether RoloD has posted it here, but he made a little film about his local caff and mentioned that a big/bold London third wave roaster had refused to do business with the owner because his machine was not not in good enough condition... What business of it is theirs? The caff appears to be full of people drinking his coffee, so he must be doing something right!


----------



## RoloD

sjenner said:


> I am not sure whether RoloD has posted it here, but he made a little film about his local caff and mentioned that a big/bold London third wave roaster had refused to do business with the owner because his machine was not not in good enough condition... What business of it is theirs? The caff appears to be full of people drinking his coffee, so he must be doing something right!


 That's true! I did post the film (Mario's Café) here once before.

What angered me is they (it was actually Union) dismissed his machine without even tasting his coffee. He now gets his coffee from Climpsons and Sons.

I wrote an angry letter to the roaster, accusing them of coffee snobbery. Caused a bit of a storm.


----------



## RoloD

sjenner said:


> I am not sure whether RoloD has posted it here, but he made a little film about his local caff and mentioned that a big/bold London third wave roaster had refused to do business with the owner because his machine was not not in good enough condition... What business of it is theirs? The caff appears to be full of people drinking his coffee, so he must be doing something right!


 That's true! I did post the film (Mario's Café) here once before.

What angered me is they (it was actually Union) dismissed his machine* without even tasting his coffee. He now gets his coffee from Climpson and Sons.

I wrote an angry letter to the roaster, accusing them of coffee snobbery. Caused a bit of a storm.

*It's a rather old one group Astra. He's considering the Londinium II.


----------



## shrink

what was wrong with his machine?


----------



## RoloD

shrink said:


> what was wrong with his machine?


They thought it was a bit old. It's regularly maintained, it works. I guess it's not a La Marzocco.


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## shrink

thats shocking!!


----------



## origmarm

RoloD said:


> They thought it was a bit old. It's regularly maintained, it works. I guess it's not a La Marzocco.


That's really bad. Really bad. I can understand the idea i.e. they don't want their product presented in a bad light but they could have actually tasted it first or similar. Lot of places with very good machines but no idea how to use them


----------



## radish

Is that the same Mario's cafe as made (a little) famous by Saint Etienne?


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## RoloD

radish said:


> Is that the same Mario's cafe as made (a little) famous by Saint Etienne?


The short answer is "yes'.

Well, the actual story is more complicated. St.Etienne did use to go there, but they claim the café in the song is generic, not specifically about this caff.

Their manager, however, had Mario's card and one of the band ended up using it to make a roach for a joint just as they were trying to decide on a name for the song.


----------



## sjenner

RoloD said:


> *It's a rather old one group Astra. He's considering the Londinium II.


That's good, if it's anything like the L1, it'll be a stonker... I hope he does the thermo-siphon rather than the dipper that he originally thought about.

Not so sure about the glass on three sides though...

But I 'spose it takes all sorts.


----------



## RoloD

sjenner said:


> That's good, if it's anything like the L1, it'll be a stonker... I hope he does the thermo-siphon rather than the dipper that he originally thought about.
> 
> Not so sure about the glass on three sides though...
> 
> But I 'spose it takes all sorts.


Yes, as I understand it, it's going to be a thermosiphon.

I'mnot convinced by the see-through look either.


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## Wando64

I appreciate the spirit of the question, and if one thinks their espresso is nicer (to them) than Traditional Italian Espresso, so be it.

You might even enjoy honey roasted ham better than Prosciutto di Parma, or prefer Cheddar cheese to Parmigiano Reggiano, but to ask whether Italians got it "wrong" is perhaps a bit over the top. (a mistake many fellow Italians also make whenever they are abroad)

Personally I just cannot enjoy most light roasted coffee beans (though I can live without robusta), or a "double espresso" (so cherished by many on this forum).

I guess it is all about what I've grown up with, and that wasn't "right" or "wrong"; it was just so.


----------



## aaronb

Having had some darker roasted beans for the first time in ages (from a roaster I respect) they just aren't for me, nice for a change but I much prefer the lighter offerings of my usual roaster.


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## decoherent

Wando64 said:


> Personally I just cannot enjoy most light roasted coffee beans (though I can live without robusta), or a "double espresso" (so cherished by many on this forum).
> 
> so.





Wando64 said:


> Personally I just cannot enjoy most light roasted coffee beans (though I can live without robusta), or a "double espresso" (so cherished by many on this forum).
> 
> I guess it is all about what I've grown up with, and that wasn't "right" or "wrong"; it was just so.


Doubles go in parallel with light roasts. As acidity grows quicker than extraction efficiency, and double having much lower extraction efficiency than a single, only the ones with a taste for raw conkers will pull a single from a light roast. This is why light roasts, for me, are right for filtered coffee and not for espresso.

I don't buy the selling hammer "dark roasting is to cover poor quality". This is simply omitting the obvious concept that you can actually make the distinction between good and bad beans in a dark roast as well (unless it is not reduced to barbecue fuel like like many so called "Continental Roasts").

Here I think Italians did actually got it wrong, letting espresso to become totally a consumer commodity and not developing a "connoisseur" market as it happened for tea. And this is the gap the "third wave" smartly filled. Italian roasts are invariably either charcoal full of Robusta (South Style / Drury Roma) or stale poor quality beans (North Style Slavazza & Silly).

The only hope is now on clever roasters outside Italy like the few here in UK not willing to throw the baby with the dirt water just for the sake of jumping on a marketing train.

After two years buying beans from fancy looking web sites and spitting coffee in my sink, together with a significant budget and time, I would rather pose the opposite question: "Did the third wave got it completely wrong as well"? I mean I'm interested in knowing how many people in coffee threads have really researched for medium-dark quality roasts trying to resist the temptation of fancy "cupping notes" talking of tangerine in an espresso?

How many really like a lemon squeezed in their espresso (and this is surprising as Anglo-saxons don't like it in tea neither) or drink espresso as a replacement for a berry squeeze?

I'm not bluntly polemic here, it is a genuine interest of me to understand if all of this is a business which grew up out of a fashion imposed by smart marketing and lack of good real espresso quality roasters or a genuine demand coming from informed personal research. If this is really genuinely cultural then I'm ready to accept the fact that espresso became something different out of Italy like carbonara with cream 

I've been trying some Coffe Plant's Nicaragua lately and it is definitely in the right spot for me. Unfortunately it seems roasters researching with a firm look to fundamentals don't have time/resources for the same level of quality in packing and distribution than the hype ones (please roasters, check how HasBean does it and simply copy!).

At now, in the range of roasters I've bene looking to, either you get a lousy 1Kg bag with more than 30% of the cost going into shipment or you get filtered coffee roasts :-(

My fear is that the few keeping experimenting with real espresso roasts will be swept away by a "Third Tsunami" leaving with no other option but buying stale beans on ebay :-(


----------



## garydyke1

decoherent said:


> I don't buy the selling hammer "dark roasting is to cover poor quality". This is simply omitting the obvious concept that you can actually make the distinction between good and bad beans in a dark roast as well
> 
> (


I have tried dark roasts using all calibre of beans.

The two detractors in taste are 1. bitterness & 2. roasty notes. I dislike both. They mask what i'm trying to taste

From a practical standpoint the detractors are 1. oils on my machine and 2. the mess it makes of my grinder


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## garydyke1

decoherent said:


> How many really like a lemon squeezed in their espresso (and this is surprising as Anglo-saxons don't like it in tea neither) or drink espresso as a replacement for a berry squeeze?


Its all a question of palate. Some people do not have a sweet tooth, others like marmite?!

Lemon squeezed into espresso, theres no need. The coffees I enjoy have enough acidity as it is ; )

I actually sqeeze lemon or lime on most of my food in place of salt for seasoning, I love acidity. It brings freshness and 'life' to food and coffee.


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## RoloD

Very interesting post, Decoherent.



> is a business which grew up out of a fashion imposed by smart marketing and lack of good real espresso quality roasters or a genuine demand coming from informed personal research?


My feelings:

- The rise of the Flat White. A lot of 'third wave' style coffee makes much more sense in milk drinks than it does in espresso, but I don't know of any specialist coffee shops (please correct me if I'm wrong) who use a different blend for espresso than they do for milk drinks.

- There is a whole competitive barista culture of finding new and different flavours and coaxing interesting tastes out of difficult beans. This is fun, but may not coincide with public demand.

May I suggest you try Londinium beans? Londinium are the only roasters in the UK who are geared specifically towards espresso. They are expensive in small quantities (this is because they are a very small company who roast to order) but their subscription (which you can take just for one month if you wish) is good value for money. They beans are low-acidity and never over roasted.


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## decoherent

RoloD:

I tried Londinium and couldn't find anything not being acidic.

  *garydyke1* :

I knwo what you mena but this is exactly my point: most of the detractors of dark roasts refer to "Continental" rosting. I agree that is useless. I'm going trash in the bin a bag (and 20BP with it) of Drury's "Roma" I purchased few days ago (quickly anybody shout if they want it for free paying shipment).

What I am advocating is the usage of medium-dark roasts for espresso. They are bitter than beans still at first crack stage but not that much if you get the right grinding and dosing. Just this morning I had a nice sweet Coffe Plant's Nicaragua and it is the best example of how there is something in between still green and completely burnt beans. Just this is not considered at all by the now standard light roasters.


----------



## RisingPower

decoherent said:


> RoloD:
> 
> I tried Londinium and couldn't find anything not being acidic.
> 
> *garydyke1* :
> 
> I knwo what you mena but this is exactly my point: most of the detractors of dark roasts refer to "Continental" rosting. I agree that is useless. I'm going trash in the bin a bag (and 20BP with it) of Drury's "Roma" I purchased few days ago (quickly anybody shout if they want it for free paying shipment).
> 
> What I am advocating is the usage of medium-dark roasts for espresso. They are bitter than beans still at first crack stage but not that much if you get the right grinding and dosing. Just this morning I had a nice sweet Coffe Plant's Nicaragua and it is the best example of how there is something in between still green and completely burnt beans. Just this is not considered at all by the now standard light roasters.


Why medium dark roasts? Bolivian machacamarca had no to little acidity medium, most colombians and brazils also have low acidity medium.

Why does a medium dark roast suit coffees like monsooned malabar or sumatran white aceh?

Have you tried roasting colombian beans from 1st crack, to dark and compared how they've tasted?

I found the colombian nina consaca back in 2009 far far better medium with no acidity compared to say oparapa which I prefer a little darker, maybe medium-medium dark.


----------



## tribs

Union do beans roasted for espresso from delicate to extra dark.


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## garydyke1

I think the roast should be taylored to the coffee itself not the brew method. this will involve multiple roast profiles and cupping.

I also think you shouldnt prioritise the brew method over the coffee - what i mean by that = some coffees will not be suited to brewed, some wont be suited to espresso. You shouldnt force them to work as espresso by imposing a dark roast.


----------



## RisingPower

garydyke1 said:


> I have tried dark roasts using all calibre of beans.
> 
> The two detractors in taste are 1. bitterness & 2. roasty notes. I dislike both. They mask what i'm trying to taste
> 
> From a practical standpoint the detractors are 1. oils on my machine and 2. the mess it makes of my grinder
> 
> I've never tasted any bitterness in sumatrans or monsooned malabar (which haven't been roasted to death), or really any indonesian coffees roasted dark.
> 
> But then there is past french roast, at which point the bean ends up pretty much charcoal. I'm interested in what is considered to be too dark a roast for indonesian beans, oils showing on monsooned malabar is a good thing for me, gives the lovely tobaccoey, earthy notes, but push it much further and you'll have charcoal.
> 
> They've never left any gunk in my grinder either?
> 
> Maybe what point you'd consider dark here?
> 
> https://www.sweetmarias.com/library/content/using-sight-determine-degree-roast


----------



## garydyke1

12 or 13. Bare in mind the longer you rest the beans the more oils come through


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## RisingPower

Interesting, I don't consider 12 dark and tbh monsooned I like closer to 13/14, but not quite, 14 is pretty close to charcoal. It's a really dark coffee for me anyways.

I don't think many beans go past 9 for me.

Oils do come through more after roasting, but i've only noted some bags get slightly oily and the hopper, don't seem to get much buildup elsewhere.


----------



## origmarm

tribs said:


> Union do beans roasted for espresso from delicate to extra dark.


Currently I think their winter blend has that balance pretty much spot on. Great roast for the beans


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## Spazbarista

Union extra dark still isn't as dark as it could be. I think Union do a good job. My favourites are Winter blend and Foundation.


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## decoherent

garydyke1 said:


> I think the roast should be taylored to the coffee itself not the brew method. this will involve multiple roast profiles and cupping.
> 
> I also think you shouldnt prioritise the brew method over the coffee - what i mean by that = some coffees will not be suited to brewed, some wont be suited to espresso. You shouldnt force them to work as espresso by imposing a dark roast.


Your point is solidly right. Still why imposing light roast to an espresso bean, and sell it as suitable for "good espresso", should be any lesser of a forcing?


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## garydyke1

Some espresso roasts will be darker than others , depending on the beans. It all depends if you have preconceptions over what an espresso's attributes would exhibit, rather than seeking the attributes of the coffee itself.

I dont think every single batch of coffee that goes out is 100% by design. Mistakes will be made


----------



## RoloD

garydyke1 said:


> Some espresso roasts will be darker than others , depending on the beans. It all depends if you have preconceptions over what an espresso's attributes would exhibit, rather than seeking the attributes of the coffee itself.


That's an interesting point.

Perhaps from the Italian perspective, there is a perfect drink called espresso, and the task is to find the beans and method that will fulfill that ideal.

From another point of view, there is a coffee bean and the pursuit of a range of different roasting and brewing techniques to get the very best out of it.*

*(I was going add - then ruin it with milk - but that would be revealing my prejudice)


----------



## garydyke1

Death to 'espresso' ....give rise to the '9BAR-extracted-coffee-drink' ....doesnt have the same ring to it.

Espresso is an 'extraction method' to me , we need to take emotion/romantic view of it out of the picture.


----------



## RoloD

garydyke1 said:


> Espresso is an 'extraction method' to me , we need to take emotion/romantic view of it out of the picture.


But why take the emotion/romance out of it? You can't really separate the drink from the culture and life that surrounds it.

It is clear we disagree on this. I do have a notion of espresso, maybe half-remembered, half-imagined. I'm not particularly interested in other sorts of coffee drinks, certainly not ones with milk in, and if I wanted fizzy sherbet flavours I'd go to a sweet shop.

But I guess I'm just old fashioned.


----------



## Earlepap

Hang on a minute. After nine pages, does it turn out different people have different tastes, opinions and like different things? WTF?!


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## RoloD

Earlepap said:


> Hang on a minute. After nine pages, does it turn out different people have different tastes, opinions and like different things? WTF?!


Indeed it does!

I suppose it was all my fault for starting this conversation, but it confirms my feelings that there are two very different perspectives on this thing we call 'espresso' - one, let us say, is the Italian or classical approach, which has a very particular type of end product in mind and one which we could call the modern or third wave approach which treats espresso as a particular extraction technique out of an armoury of many. And that distinction might explain some of the disappointments and arguments on both sides of the fence.

And there I shall leave it...


----------



## RisingPower

garydyke1 said:


> Death to 'espresso' ....give rise to the '9BAR-extracted-coffee-drink' ....doesnt have the same ring to it.
> 
> Espresso is an 'extraction method' to me , we need to take emotion/romantic view of it out of the picture.


Would you share an espresso under candle light with me?









I don't get where the romance is with espresso?

Espresso is just another method of extraction surely?


----------



## Spazbarista

RisingPower said:


> I don't get where the romance is with espresso?
> 
> Espresso is just another method of extraction surely?


I'm not sure romance is the right word, but certain foods and drinks can be very evocative depending on where you first encountered them. For me, the first proper espresso was in Italy a quarter of a century ago, followed by many more over the intervening years. Even now, when I go to Italy, having an espresso is the first thing I do on arrival at the airport. There is something about it. It's just.....better.


----------



## RisingPower

Expobarista said:


> I'm not sure romance is the right word, but certain foods and drinks can be very evocative depending on where you first encountered them. For me, the first proper espresso was in Italy a quarter of a century ago, followed by many more over the intervening years. Even now, when I go to Italy, having an espresso is the first thing I do on arrival at the airport. There is something about it. It's just.....better.


I wouldn't say certain foods/drinks either, just foods/drinks which are evocative for certain people.

Maybe espresso does evoke certain emotions for specific tastes, but for me, it's just an extraction method that I prefer.


----------



## Outlaw333

Wow this is quite a thread I've been missing out on!

I personally see espresso as a tool and no I don't like the Italian style of espresso but many do and I see its merit but for me coffee is all about the exploration of flavour, to inspire, to challenge and to be excited about, the un-dynamic flavour of 'roast' which is the same no matter what the bean(excluding poor quality robusta which translates as burning car tyres!) is as far as 'the italian style' seems to go and it just doesn't do for me what I like a coffee to do.


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## decoherent

RoloD explicitely put this discussion in a cultural context straight from the title and that is the line I've been trying to follow as this interests me.

This wanted exactly to be a discussion about what an espresso means today.

If we all recognise that espresso has identified for the most of the last century a specific type of product we can't separate the name from the final result. Words are important. No average consumer refers to espresso to the extraction method, otherwise they won't be able to tell it without looking at the extraction process. For most of the world espresso now is just an overly condensed dose of caffeine, often tasting funky because instead of specific espresso roasts either charcoal or beans for filtered have been used.

The end result of this etymologic sloppiness is that espresso is going to disappear together with old pinball machines replaced by their pathetic video game equivalents.

You can take the Lambretta concept and evolved it but you can't call an Honda moppet Lambretta.

It is a is misfortune that the term Espresso hasn't been trademarked by the Italian government 

A final note: it is not true that Italian espresso all taste the same. This is just third wave competitive marketing. There is a bar at every corner in every town in Italy and every consumer has his/her favourite one. Trademarks of a proper Italian espresso are total lack of bitterness, thick cream and nutty, long lasting flavour. I'm afraid anything else you may have experienced was just a bad espresso.

I admit it doesn't give any space to failed sommeliers for making a living but try to find the right combination of roasts, machinery and skills and you will find it is way harder to obtain than any third wave contrivance.

Probably it helps to realise that in Italy being a barista is a commonly recognised highly regarded profession making or breaking the whole shop's business. This is how seriously espresso is taken there.

Now try to compare this with minimum waged either Starsucks' frustrated or Taylor's hedonist teenager and you will realise where the confusion originates over here.


----------



## RoloD

Decoherent - I'd be interested in knowing if you've ever found a really good traditional Italian espresso in the UK, (whether from a bar or from beans) - and, if so, where?


----------



## forzajuve

decoherent said:


> If we all recognise that espresso has identified for the most of the last century a specific type of product we can't separate the name from the final result.


Has it though? How are you defining the product? A lot of products are defined by the process that makes it, particularly in the food and drink sector e.g. bourbon. If you were to take out the process from the definition of the product it would simply be whiskey. Apply the same to espresso and it would be coffee. I think you do the general public a disservice is stating that they couldn't tell an espresso from a filtered coffee, visibly they look very different.

However I do think that grouping by roast type is not a statement of quality. There is good traditional and bad traditional, same for the third wave. Preference between the two is personal but there is no reason to write off either in terms of quality purely on roast level. As a side note, everything tastes better in Italy!


----------



## Outlaw333

Good post, I do largely agree. My issue with 'Roast' though is purely based on the scientific fact(not that I'm going to break it down scientifically right now as it would be totally unnecessary) that the further you roast a bean, the more it loses the characteristics of the bean and the more it takes on the characteristic of the 'Roast' to the point where not that long after second crack the bean would be totally indistinguishable from another, therefore all the hard work put in by the grower to produce the very best possible coffee, the buyer to spend the season scouring the world sorting the wheat from the chaff etc etc etc is then undone by a heavy handed roaster seeking the 'Italian Style', thankfully this doesn't really happen much and those seeking the 'Italian Style' would tend to work with a lower grade green which is selected to stand up to having the bejesus roasted out of it, leaving the greens that scored higher on the cupping table for the specialty market. I'm not saying there isn't any skill in blending and roasting Italian coffee as you are still seeking body, mouthfeel and certain characteristics in the bean and the roaster would still have to work hard to profile the roast etc etc

To me though I often taste 'roast' in some comparatively light coffees and it's a flavour I don't like and I find it distracting when I'm enjoying subtle nuances of magic make love to my palate, so for me roasty coffee = bad coffee. For others of course go ahead and don't be put off if you enjoy darker coffees and to be honest I did go through a phase about two years ago when I found I was rather enjoying the dark side, it didn't last long though!


----------



## RisingPower

Outlaw333 said:


> Good post, I do largely agree. My issue with 'Roast' though is purely based on the scientific fact(not that I'm going to break it down scientifically right now as it would be totally unnecessary) that the further you roast a bean, the more it loses the characteristics of the bean and the more it takes on the characteristic of the 'Roast' to the point where not that long after second crack the bean would be totally indistinguishable from another, therefore all the hard work put in by the grower to produce the very best possible coffee, the buyer to spend the season scouring the world sorting the wheat from the chaff etc etc etc is then undone by a heavy handed roaster seeking the 'Italian Style', thankfully this doesn't really happen much and those seeking the 'Italian Style' would tend to work with a lower grade green which is selected to stand up to having the bejesus roasted out of it, leaving the greens that scored higher on the cupping table for the specialty market. I'm not saying there isn't any skill in blending and roasting Italian coffee as you are still seeking body, mouthfeel and certain characteristics in the bean and the roaster would still have to work hard to profile the roast etc etc
> 
> To me though I often taste 'roast' in some comparatively light coffees and it's a flavour I don't like and I find it distracting when I'm enjoying subtle nuances of magic make love to my palate, so for me roasty coffee = bad coffee. For others of course go ahead and don't be put off if you enjoy darker coffees and to be honest I did go through a phase about two years ago when I found I was rather enjoying the dark side, it didn't last long though!


Why do you lose more the taste of a bean with more roast? Surely different flavours are present in differing quantities at different temperatures?


----------



## RisingPower

decoherent said:


> If we all recognise that espresso has identified for the most of the last century a specific type of product we can't separate the name from the final result. Words are important. No average consumer refers to espresso to the extraction method, otherwise they won't be able to tell it without looking at the extraction process. For most of the world espresso now is just an overly condensed dose of caffeine, often tasting funky because instead of specific espresso roasts either charcoal or beans for filtered have been used.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Espresso


----------



## Outlaw333

It's due to the series of chemical reactions that take place throughout the roasting process, more and more of the originally present aromatic/flavour compounds react with one another and form new ones, cells break down and most apparent soon after second crack when the reaction becomes exothermic again combustion begins to take place carbonising the sugars, lipids and other molecules.

Nobody knows exactly what happens during roasting due to various difficulties but this is about as much as I know.

I'm sure if you fired Steve Leighton off a quick email, he might have time to better explain what happens?


----------



## RoloD

I think a useful analogy here would be with another Italian product - pizza.

As far as I'm concerned, if you want to know what pizza is, go to Naples. Pizzas in Naples, by law, have to be made in a wood-fired oven with specific quality ingredients. The crust is slightly charred, quite thin and manages to be both crisp and chewy. The combination in the classic Margherita of rich tomato sauce, creamy mozzarella and strong basil makes a very simple but quite miraculous dish. Many Neapolitan pizza restaurant only offer two types of pizza, but to me they define what pizza is.

Now the rest of the world may experiment with piling all sorts of sundry meats, fish, vegetables even fruits on the pizza. There's nothing wrong with that, it's not illegal (well, it probably is in Naples) but to me that isn't pizza.

The same, for me, with espresso. By all means use the espresso extraction process to experiment with all sorts of different roasts and beans, but please, have some respect and don't denigrate the classic Italian version.


----------



## RisingPower

Outlaw333 said:


> It's due to the series of chemical reactions that take place throughout the roasting process, more and more of the originally present aromatic/flavour compounds react with one another and form new ones, cells break down and most apparent soon after second crack when the reaction becomes exothermic again combustion begins to take place carbonising the sugars, lipids and other molecules.
> 
> Nobody knows exactly what happens during roasting due to various difficulties but this is about as much as I do know.


My only question is, surely different beans start off with different levels of different aromatic compounds in the first place, so you presumably can only influence the coffee by roast, until it is charcoal. Sugars will only caramelise at a certain temperature surely and certain flavours are only present at certain temperatures.

You can't get the tobaccoey taste in a light roast of monsooned malabar from my experience, but you can make colombian coffees taste flat and burnt with a dark roast.


----------



## Outlaw333

Of course different coffees will be different to a degree, I'm not saying thats not the case but all coffees when roasted dark take on the same 'roast' flavour amongst whatever remains of the original character depending how far it was taken but once dark and showing heavy oils the 'roast' takes over so much that very unique coffees will become harder and harder to distinguish. Yes some coffees take to a thrashing better than others


----------



## lookseehear

This thread is going back and forwards more than a table tennis game! To my mind the posts I have read reinforce the following.

There are two main types of people that like good coffee.

- One type prefers a darker roast and can differentiate between tar, tobacco, earthy an nutty flavours but find most coffee roasted lightly to be overly acidic and taste of lemons.

- The other type can differentiate between different types of acidity, believes that a coffee without any acidity is bland and believes that any coffee roasted into/past second crack is over roasted and burnt.

I fall into the second category and my palate tells me that if a coffee is roasted into second crack then roasty flavours develop and the coffee is spoiled.

I am more than willing to admit this is a problem with my palate not the coffee. It just seems like one person can't really appreciate dark roast at the same time as light roasts.

One observation I would make (please forgive me if this isn't correct) is that older people fall into the first category and younger people fall into the second category. Maybe this is telling us something about how our palates develop - ten years ago I didn't like blue cheese, red wine, mushrooms or olives but I could probably live off those four things now!

One thing I don't like and could do without is being told that I only endorse light roasted coffee because of a trend or 'wave'. I have cupped and critiqued varying degrees of roast of the same coffee and my palate tells me that roasted beyond a certain point the natural flavours are overshadowed by the roast flavour.

As I mentioned above I am very open to the idea that this is a flaw in my palate and that it has further development to do but it's all I can go by at the moment!


----------



## Outlaw333

Hit the nail on the head there I think Luke.


----------



## Spazbarista

Outlaw333 said:


> Good post, I do largely agree. My issue with 'Roast' though is purely based on the scientific fact(not that I'm going to break it down scientifically right now as it would be totally unnecessary) that the further you roast a bean, the more it loses the characteristics of the bean and the more it takes on the characteristic of the 'Roast' to the point where not that long after second crack the bean would be totally indistinguishable from another!


I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with some of that. I've roasted loads of different beans at all sorts of roast levels over about 13 years. Second crack only just brings out the qualities of certain bean varieties and they don't all taste the same. What is true is that some beans can be murdered quite easily, and there is no point doing that...its just bad roasting. Some beans are quite flexible in terms of roast level, some aren't.

I don't like so-called Third Wave light roast acidic coffee, but that's not to say I think Third Wave is a bad thing. The fact that you enjoy it more than traditional styles means that it can only be good. All things to all people etc.


----------



## RisingPower

lookseehear said:


> This thread is going back and forwards more than a table tennis game! To my mind the posts I have read reinforce the following.
> 
> There are two main types of people that like good coffee.
> 
> - One type prefers a darker roast and can differentiate between tar, tobacco, earthy an nutty flavours but find most coffee roasted lightly to be overly acidic and taste of lemons.
> 
> - The other type can differentiate between different types of acidity, believes that a coffee without any acidity is bland and believes that any coffee roasted into/past second crack is over roasted and burnt.
> 
> I fall into the second category and my palate tells me that if a coffee is roasted into second crack then roasty flavours develop and the coffee is spoiled.
> 
> I am more than willing to admit this is a problem with my palate not the coffee. It just seems like one person can't really appreciate dark roast at the same time as light roasts.
> 
> One observation I would make (please forgive me if this isn't correct) is that older people fall into the first category and younger people fall into the second category. Maybe this is telling us something about how our palates develop - ten years ago I didn't like blue cheese, red wine, mushrooms or olives but I could probably live off those four things now!
> 
> One thing I don't like and could do without is being told that I only endorse light roasted coffee because of a trend or 'wave'. I have cupped and critiqued varying degrees of roast of the same coffee and my palate tells me that roasted beyond a certain point the natural flavours are overshadowed by the roast flavour.
> 
> As I mentioned above I am very open to the idea that this is a flaw in my palate and that it has further development to do but it's all I can go by at the moment!


What do you call old? I'm between camps, so am I middle aged?


----------



## garydyke1

This is screaming barista jam . Bring a bag , dial your coffee in, present to the group, discuss ....

Where and when ?


----------



## fatboyslim

Yes, yes and yes!


----------



## Outlaw333

Expobarista said:


> I'm afraid I'm going to disagree with some of that. I've roasted loads of different beans at all sorts of roast levels over about 13 years. Second crack only just brings out the qualities of certain bean varieties and they don't all taste the same. What is true is that some beans can be murdered quite easily, and there is no point doing that...its just bad roasting. Some beans are quite flexible in terms of roast level, some aren't.
> 
> I don't like so-called Third Wave light roast acidic coffee, but that's not to say I think Third Wave is a bad thing. The fact that you enjoy it more than traditional styles means that it can only be good. All things to all people etc.


Read the post that followed that one, it further explains the former and then read Lukes post as it perfectly captures how I feel on this debate! To summarise though, along the lines of what you said, both styles are there to suit two different types of person.



garydyke1 said:


> This is screaming barista jam . Bring a bag , dial your coffee in, present to the group, discuss ....
> 
> Where and when ?





fatboyslim said:


> Yes, yes and yes!


I'll third that!!

Funny how this has become something of a civil war! It's about the only topic we have ever discussed that has sparked this level of pretty passionate division! So yes, lets lock portafilters! I would love to taste and discuss qualities of the side of coffee I avoid with those who embrace it, I'm always up for a palate challenge!


----------



## Outlaw333

You know Extract's new business model is to cater for just such events??

I'd need to chat to Dave though as I'm not sure if they are in the new premises yet but its fairly central to all of us?


----------



## fatboyslim

It is now that I don't live in Yorkshire......


----------



## RoloD

lookseehear said:


> One thing I don't like and could do without is being told that I only endorse light roasted coffee because of a trend or 'wave'.


That certainly was not my intention and I apologise if any of my comments came out that way. I do know people who who frequent third-wave coffee shops but secretly admit they don't really like that style of coffee - but I wasn't implying anybody on this forum was in that category and I have no doubt that enthusisam here for light roasts is entirely genuine.

I was really trying to rescue traditional Italian style espresso from being dismissed as bad-beans-obscured-by-over-roasting (even though a lot of what passes as espresso clearly is in that category), only fit for the elderly or those whose palates have not developed or as a style that has been entirely superceded by third wave roasters. I'd also say the use of robusta (which certainly does not always taste of burnt rubber) is not a crime.


----------



## garydyke1

Outlaw333 said:


> You know Extract's new business model is to cater for just such events??
> 
> I'd need to chat to Dave though as I'm not sure if they are in the new premises yet but its fairly central to all of us?


This sounds good.

Mission for the day is a '' focused exploration of differing espresso approach and style'' & we will need 2 grinders, 2 groups & 2 sets of scales to speed up the dialling in process. A whiteboard/blackboard to document tasting notes too

Edit - we will need some of those badass sandwiches Dave made..... but more of them this time


----------



## MWJB

lookseehear said:


> This thread is going back and forwards more than a table tennis game! To my mind the posts I have read reinforce the following.
> 
> There are two main types of people that like good coffee.
> 
> - One type prefers a darker roast and can differentiate between tar, tobacco, earthy an nutty flavours but find most coffee roasted lightly to be overly acidic and taste of lemons.
> 
> - The other type can differentiate between different types of acidity, believes that a coffee without any acidity is bland and believes that any coffee roasted into/past second crack is over roasted and burnt.


This is of course true, let us be guided by those wise inhabitants of Lilliput, there is no room for compromise!









"One thing I don't like and could do without is being told that I only endorse light roasted coffee because of a trend or 'wave'." Yet, we can be told which kind, of the only 2 possible types, of coffee lover we are? ;-)

Being sensible for a minute, or at least trying, most "espressos" served in this country tend to follow the Italian style....perhaps not particularly well. Unless you know where to go, you could order an espresso a day and never stumble upon a light roasted fruity, acidic espresso at a 1.65:1 brew ratio. Not that I see anything wrong with such a thing...whenever I make an Espresso I'm primarily concerned with getting a good extraction...preference plays a part, but if it tastes bad due to a malfunction, that's my fault, not the bean's. I can see how brew ratios & grind can drive one towards getting better consistency at one end of the scale, or the other, but I've had great shots from light & dark roasts.

Customer expectation is also a factor...we forget that we are not representative of the majority of espresso buyers, who have a perception of what they expect an espresso to be. Also, it takes a level of believe and commitment to source single origin & blends made from a couple of single origin beans and serve a 25g shot from an 18g dose...I'm sure many cafe owners would baulk at the idea of getting one shot from 21g, when they are used to getting 3. As with any industry, there will always be a bespoke market and a mass market...there might be a trend towards certain roast style in the bespoke market (just as economics may drive, longer, roastier & easier to extract, blend based shots in the mass market), but bespoke and "traditional/dark" don't strike me as mutually exclusive...these lines of demarcation strike me as zeal getting the better of us. They only exist if we make them exist...personal preference is anybody's choice and should be respected.

For my part I honestly couldn't pick a "camp", kind of reminds me of a BB King quote about music, "There is no bad music...but some of it isn't presented so well"...guaging your customer & meeting their expectation may be seen as part of that presentation.


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## garydyke1

I guess there are 3 camps here

1. Will buy from Has Bean-style roasters most of the time

2. Will buy from Londinium-style roasters most of the time

3. Just loves the whole spectrum of coffee and floats between camps

There will be blurred lines between the 3


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## fatboyslim

garydyke1 said:


> This sounds good.
> 
> Mission for the day is a '' focused exploration of differing espresso approach and style'' & we will need 2 grinders, 2 groups & 2 sets of scales to speed up the dialling in process. A whiteboard/blackboard to document tasting notes too
> 
> Edit - we will need some of those badass sandwiches Dave made..... but more of them this time


Do you want to start a new thread about this? Can I put you in a management role in this project going forward Gary? Perhaps contact Steve, Mike (Haggerton), and any others to see if they'd be interested.

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk HD


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## Outlaw333

fatboyslim said:


> Do you want to start a new thread about this? Can I put you in a management role in this project going forward Gary? Perhaps contact Steve, Mike (Haggerton), and any others to see if they'd be interested.
> 
> Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk HD


HeHe, My lack of success in the SQM day I see has got me fired! Why don't we make it a team effort so nobody feels under too much pressure? How about the three of us? If you rallied the troops on here Mark, you rallied those outside the forum Gary or anything else you can think of and I sort things out with Extract and we can share the administration? Just a thought..


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## fatboyslim

What ever it takes and we should try to cater for bigger numbers.

2x 2 group machines, 4 grinders and 15 sets of scales!

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk HD


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## Outlaw333

If they are in the new premises, I think that was exactly the plan for the new Extract outlay. Well I say exactly, I know the Idea was to cater for this type of event and they would have 2 Veronas and multiple grinders.


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## Outlaw333

Spoke to Dave, they will be fully set up in the new premises in about a month, he said they would love to have us and will provide whatever we need(including sandwiches Gaz!) for up to 20 of us! Only the one Verona but 3 grinders and he will happily do Dark/Light roasts for comparison and we can all bring bags of whatever we want to throw into the mix. He said just keep in contact as it develops this end and he can say what can and can't work etc etc

It's time to dedicate a thread I recon..


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## fatboyslim

Outlaw333 said:


> Spoke to Dave, they will be fully set up in the new premises in about a month, he said they would love to have us and will provide whatever we need(including sandwiches Gaz!) for up to 20 of us! Only the one Verona but 3 grinders and he will happily do Dark/Light roasts for comparison and we can all bring bags of whatever we want to throw into the mix. He said just keep in contact as it develops this end and he can say what can and can't work etc etc
> 
> It's time to dedicate a thread I recon..


Come on Nick, if this isn't a chance for redemption (for SQ Mile Day) then I don't know what is. You and Dave seem to have a special relationship.

You spearhead this one and we'll all give you a pat on the back, perhaps some sort of ceremonial hat may be involved as well.


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## Outlaw333

If it's one of these babies you're on! http://www.hannahats.com/caps-page-0-5900.html

Na, I don't need any ceremonial back patting or hat wearing but I'm happy to run the communications department of the operation and anything else, I do think as this is going to be a biggun' a team effort between you, myself and Gary would be the way forward. What do you recon?


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## Earlepap

That's quite a hat. Can you coordinate them to move their base of operations to London so I can come? Thanks Nick!


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## decoherent

RoloD said:


> Decoherent - I'd be interested in knowing if you've ever found a really good traditional Italian espresso in the UK, (whether from a bar or from beans) - and, if so, where?


Coffe Plant in Portobello Rd is not bad if you get there with no crowd, which means never  Every other place I've tried is just an offense to espresso and your pocket.

There is another place still in the same area, run by a Napoletan guy, where they have a nice two levers San Marco but the coffee comes all the way from Italy and they don't make enough espresso to keep the machine at full steam all the time.

I remember Caffe' Italia wasn't that bad long time ago, when Angelucci used to be next door... now it is just like every other waste of place.

In terms of beans, so far I've only found two interesting beans: Coffee Plant's Nicaragua and Origin's Original Espresso.

I've tried most beans of Has bean, Londinium, Union and Square Mile. They all taste the same to me: over extracted filtered. The only Drury's bag I've got is good to stop biting your nails or doing barbecue.

The Original Espresso is the only one I've got from Origin so far. To be on the light side is very good, not acidic at all, but, like other lightish roasts, is lacking body and it doesn't coat your mouth as it should.

Coffee Plant is probably the only roaster I've found so far not being integralist and roasting for a brewing method rather than for a colour. So if they say it is good for espresso you can be fairly sure it is so.

The quest is not over yet.

Like you I think just a hint of Robusta won't be out of place but, again, Robusta got so disdained nowadays that nobody cares any more for its quality and to find an excellent one is not that easy. In fact I remember a Sicilian 100% Robusta long time ago which you would never guess was full Robusta: one of the best bag I ever had ;-) I know I will be crucified for this...

I find the idea of an O' Bean Corral exciting and enticing. But the problem is the original one: whilst you seem to think there is a huge selection of excellent third wave beans, I'm not sure there will be any real good old style espresso one around.


----------



## Outlaw333

decoherent said:


> I've tried most beans of Has bean, Londinium, Union and Square Mile. They all taste the same to me: over extracted filtered.


Forgive me but I was always under the impression that extraction was down the one extracting it?


----------



## RisingPower

decoherent said:


> Coffe Plant in Portobello Rd is not bad if you get there with no crowd, which means never  Every other place I've tried is just an offense to espresso and your pocket.
> 
> There is another place still in the same area, run by a Napoletan guy, where they have a nice two levers San Marco but the coffee comes all the way from Italy and they don't make enough espresso to keep the machine at full steam all the time.
> 
> I remember Caffe' Italia wasn't that bad long time ago, when Angelucci used to be next door... now it is just like every other waste of place.
> 
> In terms of beans, so far I've only found two interesting beans: Coffee Plant's Nicaragua and Origin's Original Espresso.
> 
> I've tried most beans of Has bean, Londinium, Union and Square Mile. They all taste the same to me: over extracted filtered. The only Drury's bag I've got is good to stop biting your nails or doing barbecue.
> 
> The Original Espresso is the only one I've got from Origin so far. To be on the light side is very good, not acidic at all, but, like other lightish roasts, is lacking body and it doesn't coat your mouth as it should.
> 
> Coffee Plant is probably the only roaster I've found so far not being integralist and roasting for a brewing method rather than for a colour. So if they say it is good for espresso you can be fairly sure it is so.
> 
> The quest is not over yet.
> 
> Like you I think just a hint of Robusta won't be out of place but, again, Robusta got so disdained nowadays that nobody cares any more for its quality and to find an excellent one is not that easy. In fact I remember a Sicilian 100% Robusta long time ago which you would never guess was full Robusta: one of the best bag I ever had ;-) I know I will be crucified for this...
> 
> I find the idea of an O' Bean Corral exciting and enticing. But the problem is the original one: whilst you seem to think there is a huge selection of excellent third wave beans, I'm not sure there will be any real good old style espresso one around.


You've tried most of hasbeans beans? Holy heck that's a lot of beans.


----------



## decoherent

You are right; wrong terms. Maybe a "very dense mericano"?

It always tastes wrong it doesn't matter how much you try. Definitely dominantly sour.

Did you ever bite a medlar seed or wet walnuts? Bad way of waking up in the morning...


----------



## decoherent

RisingPower said:


> You've tried most of hasbeans beans? Holy heck that's a lot of beans.


Well... sticking to the espresso ones and avoiding the ones decidedly very light.

Still I've bee grinding about 1 250gr bag every week for the last 2 and a half years years now...

A few types I even tried more than once. For example the Blake was almost convincing... that I admit is not that acidic.

Don't get me wrong... I love the way Has Bean works. Fantastic beans quality, process and customer service. If they had the perfect beans for me I would stick with them forever.


----------



## Outlaw333

Could you shoot a video of your espresso prep and extraction? As it could be down to your technique if you are getting dominant sourness, I know that lighter roasts aren't for everyone but if you are getting unpleasant tartness it could be down to technique or equipment, darker roasted beans do flatter the barista somewhat due to their user-friendliness


----------



## Outlaw333

decoherent said:


> Still I've bee grinding about 1 250gr bag every week for the last 2 and a half years years now...


Are you pre-grinding your coffee for the week?


----------



## Outlaw333

Earlepap said:


> That's quite a hat. Can you coordinate them to move their base of operations to London so I can come? Thanks Nick!


Oh bugger, can you not get out of london Rowan?


----------



## RisingPower

decoherent said:


> Well... sticking to the espresso ones and avoiding the ones decidedly very light.
> 
> Still I've bee grinding about 1 250gr bag every week for the last 2 and a half years years now...
> 
> A few types I even tried more than once. For example the Blake was almost convincing... that I admit is not that acidic.
> 
> Don't get me wrong... I love the way Has Bean works. Fantastic beans quality, process and customer service. If they had the perfect beans for me I would stick with them forever.


http://archive.hasbean.co.uk/

I'm just a little surprised that none of those coffees have appealed. They have had part robusta blends in the past too.

I can think of quite a few of hasbeans which weren't acidic, but there aren't that many memorable beans.


----------



## sjenner

RisingPower said:


> http://archive.hasbean.co.uk/
> 
> I'm just a little surprised that none of those coffees have appealed. They have had part robusta blends in the past too.
> 
> I can think of quite a few of hasbeans which weren't acidic, but there aren't that many memorable beans.


HasBean's Ethiopian Konga is quite nice and fruity, and it is probably the distinctive part of "Blake".

A friend of mine adds this to something that he is not happy with and insists that he has got the "Blake" signature coming through, that Konga always makes an improvement even if it doesn't have enough of an espresso body of its own.

I have been buying a few bags of this and I quite like it as an espresso base for milk.

Until I bought my Londinium Lever, I used an electric Bialetti or stovetop (depending on how much I was making), and I used HasBean almost exclusively for years, the new machine has encouraged me to look at darker roasts and HasBean just doesn't have them. So far that has meant that I am mainly using Londinium roasts, all of which [oddly







] seem very well suited to a lever machine.

I mentioned in another thread that I had been trying to get hold of some Guglielmo, which is an old fashioned Italian blend from the deep south of Italy, but the importer was not interested in selling anything less than 6kg at a time, and he seems to sell mainly to restaurants... Oh well







.

I have tried quite a few others of good repute, but have not felt the need to revisit any of them yet. Anyway, I consider myself to be a "noob" and as such, I have an awful lot to learn.

BTW: This is a cracking thread, isn't it?


----------



## RisingPower

sjenner said:


> HasBean's Ethiopian Konga is quite nice and fruity, and it is probably the distinctive part of "Blake".
> 
> A friend of mine adds this to something that he is not happy with and insists that he has got the "Blake" signature coming through, that Konga always makes an improvement even if it doesn't have enough of an espresso body of its own.
> 
> I have been buying a few bags of this and I quite like it as an espresso base for milk.
> 
> Until I bought my Londinium Lever, I used an electric Bialetti or stovetop (depending on how much I was making), and I used HasBean almost exclusively for years, the new machine has encouraged me to look at darker roasts and HasBean just doesn't have them. So far that has meant that Ii am mainly using Londinium roasts, all of which [oddly
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ] seem very well suited to a lever machine.
> 
> I mentioned in another thread that I had been trying to get hold of some Guglielmo, which is an old fashioned Italian blend from the deep south of Italy, but the importer was not interested in selling anything less than 6kg at a time, and he seems to sell mainly to restaurants... Oh well
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> I have tried quite a few others of good repute, but have not felt the need to revisit any of them yet. Anyway, I consider myself to be a "noob" and as such, I have an awful lot to learn.
> 
> BTW: This is a cracking thread, isn't it?


Interesting, I had blake aaaggees ago, it was ok, but I liked jailbreak more.

I used hasbean exclusively for however many years I don't know, but i've barely scratched the surface of beans they have to offer.

Hasbean had monsooned malabar which I thought they had reasonably dark, but I don't think they've had it for some time.

I remember the colombian narino consaca they had which was just so smooth and gorgeous, the el salvador la illusion which almost was liquoricey, the bolivia machacamarca which was simply amazing etc etc. None of those had acidity. Ahh crikey, yes, the kenya gethumbwini was fantastic too.

Just a shame I don't think they've had as many memorable coffees recently.


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## RoloD

RisingPower said:


> Interesting, I had blake aaaggees ago, it was ok, but I liked jailbreak more.


 Blake, IMHO, is the weirdest of the HasBean blends. One version I had of it, about a year ago, was literally undrinkable - I had to give the bag away. It's supposed to be 'old school', but for the life of me I don't know what that school is (and certainly glad I didn't go to it). 'Jailbreak', on the other hand, is what I think HasBean does well. I don't like it (far too sharp and thin for my taste), but I can see what is supposed to be.


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## RisingPower

RoloD said:


> Blake, IMHO, is the weirdest of the HasBean blends. One version I had of it, about a year ago, was literally undrinkable - I had to give the bag away. It's supposed to be 'old school', but for the life of me I don't know what that school is (and certainly glad I didn't go to it). 'Jailbreak', on the other hand, is what I think HasBean does well. I don't like it (far too sharp and thin for my taste), but I can see what is supposed to be.


The single origins like gethumbwini, machacamarca, la illusion are for me what hasbean did fantastically. Nobody else had beans like that at the time iirc, I just want them again, la illusion didn't have that syrupyness last time I tried it.


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## decoherent

Outlaw333 said:


> Could you shoot a video of your espresso prep and extraction? As it could be down to your technique if you are getting dominant sourness, I know that lighter roasts aren't for everyone but if you are getting unpleasant tartness it could be down to technique or equipment, darker roasted beans do flatter the barista somewhat due to their user-friendliness


I always grind and dose for the lowest acidity. With those kind of light roasts I get that only when the flow starts being too fast and too thin. Well.. this makes sense after all. A tarred coup only gets counted in the sink lot.

Of course not all roasts are that sour at all. I emphasized a bit to give an idea of the kind of taste making my espresso a disservice. For me it becomes simply like an orchestra with a terrible player in it consistently screwing the play.

And of course am I not pre-grinding 

I agree with RoloD and others here about Has Bean. This crazy idea that you can get away throwing your less valuable beans at a darker roast doesn't help.

I tried Jailbraker and Breakfast Bomb as well but couldn't really get enthusiastic. The one I could use more often is the Cachoeira da Grama but, again, it would be interesting to see how it holds a bit more roasted...

Will try an Indian from Coffee Plant tomorrow and I've got a couple of bags of my, for now, preferred one Nicaragua. I may try mix it with just a tad of Robusta...


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## RisingPower

decoherent said:


> I always grind and dose for the lowest acidity. With those kind of light roasts I get that only when the flow starts being too fast and too thin. Well.. this makes sense after all. A tarred coup only gets counted in the sink lot.
> 
> Of course not all roasts are that sour at all. I emphasized a bit to give an idea of the kind of taste making my espresso a disservice. For me it becomes simply like an orchestra with a terrible player in it consistently screwing the play.
> 
> And of course am I not pre-grinding
> 
> I agree with RoloD and others here about Has Bean. This crazy idea that you can get away throwing your less valuable beans at a darker roast doesn't help.
> 
> I tried Jailbraker and Breakfast Bomb as well but couldn't really get enthusiastic. The one I could use more often is the Cachoeira da Grama but, again, it would be interesting to see how it holds a bit more roasted...
> 
> Will try an Indian from Coffee Plant tomorrow and I've got a couple of bags of my, for now, preferred one Nicaragua. I may try mix it with just a tad of Robusta...


All the beans you've mentioned so far, suit lighter roasts. Cachoeira, won't be better with being roasted darker.


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## decoherent

RisingPower said:


> All the beans you've mentioned so far, suit lighter roasts. Cachoeira, won't be better with being roasted darker.


Interesting. Did you actually tried them medium dark? Either my taste is way off tune or CoffeePlant can roast what others can't . The fact they have been around longer than any compulsive light "espresso" roasters could be an explanation.


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## RisingPower

decoherent said:


> Interesting. Did you actually tried them medium dark? Either my taste is way off tune or CoffeePlant can roast what others can't . The fact they have been around longer than any compulsive light "espresso" roasters could be an explanation.


It was a long time ago I had cachoeira from hasbean, but I was buying in 2kg bags at the time and the roasts varied from light to medium dark from the same batch of greens I was roasting.

I played around a lot more when I was buying in 2kg bags.


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## rodabod

Just back from the South of Italy and also Sicily.

It's just a different drink there from what we have here. Beans are roasted for espresso, and as espresso it's really wonderful. I still like lighter roasts at home for milk drinks and for the Aeropress, but overall I don't think you can beat their quality of espresso.

I bought a variety of different espresso beans while I was there, including various types of Moak and a really stunning bag of beans from a company called Maresca in Sorrento. One thing I didn't realise is that they make blends which range from around 80% Robusta all the way to 100% Arabica.


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## rodabod

Also, there's no snobbery with the coffee over there. There's no weighing scales, often no tamper, it's usually less than one Euro, and yet it tastes amazing.


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## RoloD

So I guess your answer to my original question, raised way back in January, is 'the former'.

My point simply is that Italian tradition is a very different concept to modern 'third wave' roasters and coffee shops, but not an inferior concept.


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## rodabod

Yes, I'd forgotten to read your original post again, but it's spot-on.

It was an eye opener to go back to Italy, because I'd almost forgotten that I liked espresso. The word espresso used to make me think of acidic shots which made you wince, but it was great to enjoy it how I think it's meant to be made.


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## garydyke1

My observations in Italy :

1. Dont keep their machines clean

2. Wildly varying espresso volume in the cup

3. Only 2 out of about 40 cafes served anything remotely drinkable , even with sugar.


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## dabac

garydyke1 said:


> My observations in Italy :
> 
> 1. Dont keep their machines clean
> 
> 2. Wildly varying espresso volume in the cup
> 
> 3. Only 2 out of about 40 cafes served anything remotely drinkable , even with sugar.


I'm with you on the first two points, however 2/40 is quite an exaggerated number; I'd say in one out of three cafes you can find decent, drinkable espressos, although it never really comes close to the 3rd wave..


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## garydyke1

Well I've been to Sorrento , Turin, Rome, Genoa, Florence and Venice . Approximately 40 cafeteria visited and only found 2 of quality . I'm unlucky obviously


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## Milanski

I went a couple of months ago and have to say I didn't enjoy any of the espressos I had. They seem to fill their dosers with grounds and then leave them in there until it runs low (which could be two/three days or more in some of the quieter rural cafes I went to.

Even in a busy London Italian cafe (Bar Italia that I happened to pass a couple of days ago) it was the same thing. Stale coffee and a large volume double with thin and quickly dissipating crema which leaves you wondering a) how often they clean their machines and b)how did this drink ever become popular!? (Oh and for that last shot I got charged £3.80!!!).


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## RoloD

garydyke1 said:


> Well I've been to Sorrento , Turin, Rome, Genoa, Florence and Venice . Approximately 40 cafeteria visited and only found 2 of quality . I'm unlucky obviously


I don't want to get drawn into this debate again, but I think it really does come down to a matter of taste.

But what would be the ratios of drinkable espressos in the UK if you included not just specialist coffee shops, but every outlet that had an espresso machine and claims to serve espresso?


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## garydyke1

Let me clarify, 'drinkable' isnt about I like light-medium roasted beans versus dark-extra dark...its about DRINKABLE ie prepared with care and cleanliness.

A well prepared shot of darker roasted espresso shouldnt be all soot/ash/bovril/metalic/dirt which you can taste through a teapsoon of sugar! The 2 decent shots I did have in Italy didnt need sugar, they were pleasant if not entirely what I would seek at home.


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## MWJB

I think we have a couple of different discussions going on, not just traditional vs 3rd wave. Well extracted coffee generally tastes good...may not meet your preference, but you are unlikely to spit it out, even if your typical drink is different. Any style of coffee can be badly made...that's more in the "malfunction" territory...which is how I read Gary's judgement on the espressos he tasted.


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## garydyke1

MWJB said:


> I think we have a couple of different discussions going on, not just traditional vs 3rd wave. Well extracted coffee generally tastes good...may not meet your preference, but you are unlikely to spit it out, even if your typical drink is different. Any style of coffee can be badly made...that's more in the "malfunction" territory...which is how I read Gary's judgement on the espressos he tasted.


Yes........ !


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## Milanski

I second that.

I'm not particularly a dark roast man (tho my appreciation is widening) but I def appreciate a well extracted coffee no matter what the roast.

It seems that because coffee has been around in Italy for so long, there has bean







a sort of complacency that has set in whereby the original important elements in making good coffee have been forgotten. Clean machines, freshly roasted beans ground immediately before preparation are vital to good coffee yet these are the key elements that have seemingly slipped in the average Italian cafe.


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## coffeechap

I live in Italy and have found very few bars that I can drink the espresso without sugar, I still believe espresso in Italy on the whole is about getting the fix of caffeine and nothing else, here is a fab Little bar near my home that produces great espresso from a three group lever but the barista is very proud of the coffee he makes. But agree with gary there are not many great espresso bars that turn out fab coffee, but also agree it is the same here


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## garydyke1

Whether you detest it , or not, the ''thirdwave'' should be congratulated for introducing (or reintroducing) accuracy and clean equipment.


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## Spazbarista

I think you are quite right about the caffeine thing. I also think that coffee in Italy is much like tea over here. Its just a drink. No snobbery, no aspiration, no hierarchy. Its also very standardised.....like a cuppa. You might not be able to explain why one coffee is good, but you'll know when you've had a good one....much like a cuppa.

I like coffee in Italy. I've had few bad ones. I think they are missing a trick, tnough , but you'd never be able to tell them that because they put themselves on a pedestal.


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## coffeechap

Got you on CCTV dude from earlier watch this space


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## coffeegibson

I'm certainly a traditionalist when it comes to espresso


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## Anthorn

Expobarista said:


> I think you are quite right about the caffeine thing. I also think that coffee in Italy is much like tea over here. Its just a drink. No snobbery, no aspiration, no hierarchy. Its also very standardised.....like a cuppa. You might not be able to explain why one coffee is good, but you'll know when you've had a be one....much like a cuppa.
> 
> I like coffee in Italy. I've had few bad ones. I think they are missing a trick, tnough , but you'd never be able to tell them that because they put themselves on a pedestal.


In one way I agree and in another I disagree: Go to the tourist areas of Rome, for example, and you'll find every type of coffee in every size imaginable in large, busy coffee houses. But go out of the tourist areas down a side street and you'll most likely find the lone Barista in his little coffee shop making espresso from one or two types of beans that he's been making for donkeys years.

On caffeine again I'm in two minds because it depends on who is drinking it. I think in general it's a coffee thing and it just so happens that coffee has caffeine in it. But I agree that Italians don't drink coffee because they're thirsty: That's where the water accompanying the coffee comes in.


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## espressotechno

Even in the UK, it's dangerous to life & limb to "advise" an Italian caterer how to make a better espresso, etc.....even if he's doing it all wrong !

I've seen pre-ground coffee being spooned out of a big catering tin, into the PF. (" we can't afford a new grinder").

Any advice tends to be seen as an insult to his manliness / his mothers virtue.

Hey Ho !


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## Anthorn

espressotechno said:


> Even in the UK, it's dangerous to life & limb to "advise" an Italian caterer how to make a better espresso, etc.....even if he's doing it all wrong !
> 
> I've seen pre-ground coffee being spooned out of a big catering tin, into the PF. (" we can't afford a new grinder").
> 
> Any advice tends to be seen as an insult to his manliness / his mothers virtue.
> 
> Hey Ho !


It's much the same when someone offers a coffee in their home, it's very bad form to refuse; In my own case as a teenager I absolutely hated coffee, yuk, horrible stuff, and I much preferred hot chocolate. As the years passed I was accepting coffee when there was no alternative just to be friendly and polite and avoid getting slapped when I got home. So for me coffee is very much an acquired taste so today I like it strong and neat except in the mornings when I have it milky. My teenage years seem so far behind me. Italy is a lot like France in that it must be embraced. It's ok not speaking very much of the language but ignorance is something else entirely.


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