# It's that time of year again - New Roaster coming on test



## DavecUK

I was asked some months ago about a particular roaster and I thought it would be good for it to come on test for possible sale in the UK. I have seen engineering diagrams of the mechanical parts of the roaster and it looks well constructed, but unfortunately no electrical diagrams. it's arriving tomorrow and I'm actually quite excited. It's a roaster in the 1kg class and I understand it will be quite attractively priced. I will take some photos when it arrives, but the in the ones I've already seen it looks very nice.

More updates to follow.....assuming people are interested.


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## Mouse

Yep - Interested


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## ronsil

Not roasting as much as I did due to time constraints with Hottop maximising at 230/250 gram input.

Would be very interested in hearing about something with a 1 kilo input.


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## Phil104

Yes - I'd be interested, too.


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## johnealey

yes please, echoing Ron's comments above, 2 roasts a week got to be better than 6/7/8 seperate ones anytime.

John


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## DavecUK

You all think it's this roaster don't you?

Well...it's not, photos to come tomorrow pm.


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## Viernes

I just saw a post on CG of you talking about a new 1kg roaster review... so I've gone to this forum hoping to get more info, and here it is









Very interested!!


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## Fevmeister

Yep sounds good, looks to be a gap in the market for a larger capacity home roaster


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## @3aan

DavecUK said:


> I was asked some months ago about a particular roaster and I thought it would be good for it to come on test for possible sale in the UK. I have seen engineering diagrams of the mechanical parts of the roaster and it looks well constructed, but unfortunately no electrical diagrams. it's arriving tomorrow and I'm actually quite excited. It's a roaster in the 1kg class and I understand it will be quite attractively priced. I will take some photos when it arrives, but the in the ones I've already seen it looks very nice.
> 
> More updates to follow.....assuming people are interested.


Aillio Bullet?


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## DavecUK

@3aan said:


> Aillio Bullet?


When I posted "you think it's this roaster ", I forgot to add the link to the Aillio web site....not, it's not the Bullet. I would not be as excited, if it was the bullet....because I would be wondering what to do with all the smoke.


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## Mouse

Can you give us a hint on price Dave?


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## DavecUK

Mouse said:


> Can you give us a hint on price Dave?


Unfortunately not yet, but I am hoping to persuade them to do a pre-order special launch price for the first 5 or so, if the roaster is any good...to try and get a few out in the wild. I must admit, it looks so pretty in the photos I've seen of the actual roaster and seems so nicely designed, if the "sizzle is as good as the sausage", I might be tempted to buy the test one, add it to my collection of roasters and sell my Quest M3. only 2.5 hours before it arrives...best charge the camera batteries.


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## MrShades

A larger capacity roaster would be great, if it were at a good price.

If only something like those Mill City Roasters, from the US, were easily available here as 240V variants....

Come on Dave - tell us more!


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## MrShades

MrShades said:


> A larger capacity roaster would be great, if it were at a good price.
> 
> If only something like those Mill City Roasters, from the US, were easily available here as 240V variants....
> 
> Come on Dave - tell us more!


Ah, just done some digging - and they ARE available in the UK - 1Kg electric roaster.... £3000+VAT: http://www.roastyourowncoffee.co.uk/ ----- hmmmm.....


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## Viernes

MrShades said:


> Ah, just done some digging - and they ARE available in the UK - 1Kg electric roaster.... £3000+VAT: http://www.roastyourowncoffee.co.uk/ ----- hmmmm.....


So this is the roaster that Dave is going to review?

Roaster weight: 90kg

Chaf collector weight: 20kg


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## MrShades

I very much doubt it... 'twas just a comment from me on what I'd like to own as a 1Kg roaster.


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## @3aan

If possible go for gas!


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## DavecUK

@3aan said:


> If possible go for gas!


Can be a big problem for many people, ducting, location of gas supply, health and safety considerations, ventilation etc..In the 1kg market, probably not necessary...for larger roasters I would agree. Anyway it's not gas, I am awaiting permission to publish some photos and it's a good job because one of my camera batteries is knackered and the other is on charge.

What I can tell you is it arrived this afternoon. 2 of us lifted it onto the roasting worktop in my workshop and it's heavy but not too bad. the body of the roaster is about 60kg, the chaff collector probably another 10 kg. The roaster is a really pretty little roaster externally (because i still have to give it an internal exam). The outside look is very good indeed, the finish is nice, it's like a little jewel (so really good for a roaster). It's a Chinese roaster (as most of them are), but it looks like it's been made in Korea. really well finished, really nice quality. I was pretty surprised, because the Toper I used to own had a very industrial finish, very heavy but read old Russian car heavy. This roaster you can liken to the build of a good modern car, not as heavy, but much better made.

heating power on our voltage is around 2300W, which is plenty and the motors only add another 100 watts or so when running, so the whole thing runs happily on a 10.2 amp draw. This means a standard 13 amp plug is fine. The drum is great and perforated stainless steel with wrap around heating elements over the top 70% of the drum...NOT concentrated at the bottom. The drum is super quality and mixes the beans exceptionally well. I couldn't resist and fired her up to do some roasts after a few basic electrical safety tests. I would say she needs around 20 minutes to properly warm up and my first roast was a bit slow. you can also control airflow as well as max temp and the airflow has a huge impact, so the first roast did not go so well as it wasn't properly warmed, read 10m and I wasn't used to the airflow. 18m 30s later I had my coffee but not expecting much.

I popped in the next batch whilst the first was cooling in the cooling tray and this time when with my gut, rather than the chinese instructions which were super basic, no that's a lie, they were useless. This time the roast completed in 16 minutes, much darker and a better time for the roast level, but I had learnt more.

Roast number 3 completed in 15m and roast 4 in just over 13 minutes (all to medium dark), all mainly down to a slightly higher max temperature and better use of the airflow control. This means I can get short or long roasts as I desire....so I'm happy at the moment (until I taste them). it also shows the need for a good long warm up of 20 minutes and even then your first roast will still be slower than the rest. I guess I am spoiled by the CBR1200, nip out 4 minutes to heat up.

In my old toper, the sweep arms of the cooling tray were not fantastic and often I was using a paintbrush to help get all the beans out thru the cooling tray chute. In this roaster I switched in on and to my great pleasure, every single bean was quickly and efficiently swept down the chute by the sweep arms! If you have ever used commercial roasters where this doesn't happen you will know how irritating it is.

In one particular area is was truly outstanding....chaff clearance, it was incredible. I'll swear it was as good as the 25kg Probat I used to use. there was pretty much NO chaff on the beans and I roasted 2 different varietals, one I know is pretty chaffy. Even with my CBR 1200, I like to tip my beans from container to container in a breeze to remove every last vestige of chaff...I'm a bit OCD about chaff (for a few good reasons). I was able to take the beans from this roaster and put em straight into the bag!

Roasts were also very, very even and no scorching or tipping, even when I used quite high drop temps.

So far loving it....it's a roaster that you need to develop some skill to use and you have to watch it quite closely unlike my CBR1200, but for those who take the time to learn, it looks like the results will be worth it.

As for photos, hopefully can post some tomorrow. I need to make this very clear....*IF BB decide to sell it*, price wise all I can say is it will be worth every penny of what I understand BB are going to charge and I think it's a price which may persuade the more adventurous (Ron), to actually stump up and buy one. One thing I know for sure is, they plan to have a preorder price for early adopters (very limited number of places), that will make it a fantastic deal for those lucky few able to get it.

*Remember I still have to taste the results over the next 5-7 days, I also have to inspect it internally and roast a lot more than 4kg.....*for me personally, if it continues to please me and deliver as i hope it will. I'm going to try and negotiate to buy this one to add it to my roaster collection and no, I won't be selling my CBR1200, but I will sell my Quest M3.


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## @3aan

I could buy a few weeks ago an Toper 1kg, for little money less than 1500 euro, it was electric so I did pass, gas/lpg is so more faster in respons, if I could buy for an reasonable price a gas driven roaster, super I will go for it.


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## DavecUK

@3aan said:


> I could buy a few weeks ago an Toper 1kg, for little money less than 1500 euro, it was electric so I did pass, gas/lpg is so more faster in respons, if I could buy for an reasonable price a gas driven roaster, super I will go for it.


Yes, well it's not gas, I don't know how many roasters and what type you have used, but gas is not so popular in the 1kg market....well except for people like yourself, where only gas will do. Remember you won't have a fully modulating burner not on a 1kg roaster and not on many/most larger roasters, so temperature control is still fairly limited. With electrics like my CBR1200, you can put power control in. You should have bought that toper for 1500 euro, it was a used bargain if in good condition. Even if you didn't want it you could have easily made a good profit on it.


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## Viernes

18' first roast

16' second

15' third

13' fourth

Perhaps is not a little underpowered in relation with its mass?? Seems to need lot of heat to stabilize temperature.

Thanks Dave for your effort.

BTW: A comparison vs your CBR 1200 would be great. Would it be possible?


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## @3aan

DavecUK said:


> Yes, well it's not gas, I don't know how many roasters and what type you have used, but gas is not so popular in the 1kg market....well except for people like yourself, where only gas will do. Remember you won't have a fully modulating burner not on a 1kg roaster and not on many/most larger roasters, so temperature control is still fairly limited. With electrics like my CBR1200, you can put power control in. You should have bought that toper for 1500 euro, it was a used bargain if in good condition. Even if you didn't want it you could have easily made a good profit on it.


It did go to someone I know, thats even better! ;-)


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## DavecUK

Viernes said:


> 18' first roast
> 
> 16' second
> 
> 15' third
> 
> 13' fourth
> 
> Perhaps is not a little underpowered in relation with its mass?? Seems to need lot of heat to stabilize temperature.
> 
> Thanks Dave for your effort.
> 
> BTW: A comparison vs your CBR 1200 would be great. Would it be possible?


You have to remember I was still getting to grips with the amount of airflow required and the last 2 roasts i use 2 very different airflow profiles. as for power vs mass, even the 1960s gas powered 25kg Probats took 25 minutes to warm up enough to start roasting properly and then the first 2 roasts were slower than the rest.....and they had loads of power. there is a lot of metal trying to sink heat away from even this little roaster. The problem is if you use power to overcome this, you can get hotspots and tipping/scorching of the beans. 2kW is plenty to roast 1kg.

I'll probably try and do some comparison with the CBR 1200 if it gets to review stage....although they are 2 different beasts, aimed at different types of people (or people like me who like both types). Sort of like classic cars and modern cars. Or electric vs ICE cars of which we have both.


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## froggystyle

Looking forward to seeing what this roaster is now!

Anyone want to buy a CBR1200 ?


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## johnealey

yes, but only if I can do a jedi mind trick and fool you into accepting beer money not champagne money :









John


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## froggystyle

No chance, got my tin foil hat on, blocks all mind tricks!

It is a serious thought though, i like the CBR1200, but as Dave has pointed out i find it floored in terms of removing chaff, which like him bugs the hell out of me.


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Looking forward to seeing what this roaster is now!
> 
> Anyone want to buy a CBR1200 ?


Don't be too fast Froggy CBR 1200 has a lot going for it....it's why it costs what it does. it might be that these special features are not important to you personally, but to a lot of people they will be. Also the CBR1200 is the only roaster that you can easily add power control to and then it will "turn on a dime" at the Americans say. I think I'm safe in saying, when modded, nothing else would be that controllable. As I said before, if I am feeling really Lazy I can walk outside in winter, and 20m later walk back in with 1kg of roasted coffee.....I'd still be warming up a more conventional roaster!


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## froggystyle

Come on then Dave, where is the big reveal?


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Come on then Dave, where is the big reveal?


In true forum tradition...here is the first photo, more to come.


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## froggystyle

Oh man, don't do a dsc and take 5 years


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Oh man, don't do a dsc and take 5 years


I learnt from a master....no I just want to be sure of things before I disclose. If it helps, I've already found 1 problem which I think must be addressed before it can be sold here. It also strikes me as odd that I have never seen this problem mentioned before, however it could also be because the older design of this roaster wouldn't have had this exact problem, but may well have had others. You would think though that current owners would mention it....but not a bit of it. One thing people need to be aware of, my sort of reviews/tests and inspections on these larger roasters are not usually done for the benefit of the consumer. if this gets sold, I want it to be right for the customer.

The CBR1200 was no different, it took some changes and for me 100s of hours and 100kg before I was satisfied with the robustness of the design and it's ability to roast well, as it was a totally different approach to the 1kg market. This current roaster is of traditional design, so it makes it a little easier from the radical design viewpoint, but there are still things that have to be checked thoroughly.....People pay a lot of money for roasters in the 1kg class and I would like them to get something, that as far as it is possible, I know is right and personally believe is good.....and I'm sure no retailer I deal with wants to sell something that they don't feel is right.... the manufacturers, well in the main they don't care so much as they don't have to support the warranty and aftercare.


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## DavecUK

Well I have a wealth of coffee available, so if anyone living nearby wants to buy some very good coffee at a very reasonable price.....feel free to drop by, pm me for details of my address....I don't post, I'm not a business, so personal collection only.

Oh you can see the roaster as well....not just 1 screw.


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## Olliehulla

DavecUK said:


> Well I have a wealth of coffee available, so if anyone living nearby wants to buy some very good coffee at a very reasonable price.....feel free to drop by, pm me for details of my address....I don't post, I'm not a business, so personal collection only.
> 
> Oh you can see the roaster as well....not just 1 screw.


PM on it's way


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## DavecUK

Oh just a word of warning to people who think..ahh I'll import one of these myself......DON'T, unless your prepared to thoroughly check it over, fix any problems and ensure it's electrically safe (there were a few things I had to sort out). There is a whole program of checks and works that I am recommending are done when the roaster arrives in the UK, to ensure it's working as intended. In addition the programming of the controller will be altered and the manufacturers instructions are completely useless. Correctly used and set up, this roaster can roast fast or slow.

Also if you do try an import one, net weight including wooden packing crate is 80Kg+, you will pay large charges getting the port in the UK to handle it, even if you try and collect it. If you do go yourself you will have to pay almost as much to enter the ports....because you will need a forklift! *In summary, I think you may well end up paying more than buying the UK model with all the benefits of instructions, warranty, backup and extras etc..*

Unboxed of course, It all fits in a hatchback and is easy to transport.

You may also read reports on the web of it being underpowered, or have slow roasting times, it's not and it doesn't. This is a revised model for the UK and has more than ample power available (read 2.4Kw), within a double skinned drum. This means that the drum is not underneath the metal cowling of the roaster, it's actually inside a 2nd steel casing which contains the heating elements. This makes it incredibly efficient, especially as it uses a steel perforated drum, rather than a back plate perforated drum.


Chaff clearance is super good, in fact better than most roasters I have used and comparable to a 25kg commercial Probat!

Roasts are super even and no tipping or scorching even using very high charge temperatures

Massive airflow allow you to dump huge amounts of heat from the drum and does require a delicate touch on the airflow controller

Build quality is pretty nice as you can see and internally it's simple, but well put together, front panel electronics are neat and good and a belt drive is quiet with low thermal transference to the motor/gearbox.

The roaster has a cast Iron front plate which is 13mm thick, this is very very thick for it's class and a highly important feature.


*As for price it's going to be less than that roaster linked to and the first 6 or so people who preorder will get a very decent price on the roaster.....so I'm told! I am hoping they all come with the copper/bronze finish, because it looks really nice, not sure if it's an extra cost option or not? **Oh I should add, "only if they decide to sell them".*


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## Viernes

Dalian!! What a beautiful machine.









Unfortunately seems too big for me, I live in a apartment.







It's much bigger than the CBR1200 isn't it?


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## DavecUK

Viernes said:


> Dalian!! What a beautiful machine.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Unfortunately seems too big for me, I live in a apartment.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's much bigger than the CBR1200 isn't it?


Perhaps this helps? Taller vs Wider


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## jimbocz

This looks like a baby version of the roaster they have at my local shop - Astoria in Teddington


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## froggystyle

Nice one Dave.

Only one question from me, you have this and the CBR1200, you have to get rid of one, which do you keep?


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Nice one Dave.
> 
> Only one question from me, you have this and the CBR1200, you have to get rid of one, which do you keep?


That's easy, I will probably buy this roaster as well and keep them both, but sell my Quest M3....I'm a bit of a collector. Each roaster is different and special in it's own way.


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## froggystyle

You should have been a politician!

What are the chances of me bringing some beans and having a look at this roaster?


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> You should have been a politician!
> 
> What are the chances of me bringing some beans and having a look at this roaster?


You are quite welcome to come and have a look/play with the roaster.


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## froggystyle

How long do you have it for? Would need to be a weekend due to distance if that's ok


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> How long do you have it for? Would need to be a weekend due to distance if that's ok


I will be keeping it some considerable time as I have to write user guide (inc maintenance) and roasting guide for it...not a small amount of work. The Chinese instructions are complete shite. I also need to continue testing to work out any longer term problems. This process alone takes months and is why people need to be super careful of simply buying roasters that are not properly tested or checked..you might save a small amount of money directly importing, but you really don't know what you are getting. In addition many resellers on the web are just that, they don't test the products properly, if at all.

I intend for it not to go back, but of course they want it back for demos...but I don't care. "I wants it" and it seems a lot of hassle to have it de-installed taken back and then have another one shipped later. Besides I've "fixed" and checked this one already and the ones they order should be very slightly different in line with my recommendations. One advantage of me buying it, is the fact that I can advise on maintenance and any long term issues....I'm quite inventive on the problem solving side.

Weekends, weekdays, it matters not to me....I'm retired, so I don't worry about it too much.


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## DavecUK

Just an update. I have pretty much stripped down the roaster, checked it all out, Identified the improvements required, in fact I have made all of them bar one which needs to be done by the manufacturer before it goes on sale over here. *I have also been doing lots of roasting in the roaster and I am absolutely LOVING it! *The coffee it's producing is superb and the roasts are just about all properly rested now and there is an Ethiopian Harrar I've just been waiting to try..

I suppose this sounds a bit silly, but I find myself making excuses to go out to the workshop just to look at it and touch it...I tell myself I need to check something for my review or the handbook, but I do spend longer out there than I need to. Plus I'm really looking forward to firing her up tomorrow.


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## "coffee 4/1"

think you must be awake all night, i would be with superb roasts and a great looking roaster, beats TV, 150kg assorted greens, hows it looking


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## Soll

Looks like Christmas come early for you Dave, if only you were local to me I'd be down like a shot


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## DavecUK

Soll said:


> Looks like Christmas come early for you Dave, if only you were local to me I'd be down like a shot


Yes it's a pity, but anyone local to me is welcome to come down and have a look, or bring some beans if they want to play.


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## DavecUK

*I'm giving you guys this heads up in case anyone reading is interested in the roaster when/if it goes on sale.*

Aargh...the Chinese are such hard work and I worry sometimes about the investment required from Bella Barista to bring these sort of things to the market. I have identified a quite a few of changes required and have been trying to convince them to make them. As you can imagine English - Chinese, not easy to explain them and to convince them they are correct and why. Lots of pictures have to be used to get mechanical and physics concepts across and it takes so much time. Then there are the technical arguments, as you can imagine Chinglish and English, it's not easy. *One thing I can say about Chinese/Taiwanese roasters having tested quite a few is...DON'T ever import one yourself.* You may see Videos of them turning beans brown on the web, you may even see enthusiastic owners waxing lyrical about them, but there is nothing that beats a thorough test by someone who doesn't own it, doesn't have to buy it. Remember, I have absolutely no interest giving the roaster a good report if it's not good, and then recommend BB import them!

Quite a few changes before I think it merits being stocked in the UK, none of them too difficult. I have modified this test roaster as far as I can to check some of the recommendations. With my modifications and a lot of experience, as other mods still need to be done, rather than me using workarounds....it actually roasts fantastically well! One of the most notable things is the very very even roast and lack of tipping and scorching even at quite high charge temperatures. I think most of this is due to the heating element placement, 14mm thick cast iron front plate and drum/drum chamber design, which in this case they really have got right, plus the . . It's mechanically very simple, which is another big plus for a roaster. The Chinese want to increase the cost a lot and not do some of the things, BB want to increase the cost a little and do all the things....so it's hard work.

What's exciting is, if everything I want to be done (and I have to be reasonable) is done and the cost is kept down, it will be an absolutely great little roaster. The coffee roasted in it is superb, not only my opinion, but that of my roast sharers. It's also very tactile and a joy to use, for those who like that sort of thing.

Negotiations are at the final Hurdle, it didn't look like it would get this far, but if it can go just a little further with BB and the manufacturer reaching final agreement....then it will be coming to the UK. If not, then unfortunately this roaster will not be sold over here, this would be a great shame. It's very tempting to compromise, but as always, it's better stick to what you know is right and lose the deal rather than have a product that doesn't perform at it's best.

P.S. It looks really pretty too, I know that shouldn't matter, but when I'm there in the workshop looking at it....it does make me feel good. In fact the image below, is my desktop background! The flikr album with lots more photos, internal and external is at this link: https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/rXn07M

  DSC02376 by davecorbey, on Flickr


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## "coffee 4/1"

nice photography on flickr, apart from the tweaks needed looks a real head-turner,


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## froggystyle

Dave, If you need anything translated to Chinese, let me know i have someone who will do it for you.

It does look a great little roaster, any ideas on ballpark costs if BB go ahead?

Whats the little roaster on your high shelf also?


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## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Dave, If you need anything translated to Chinese, let me know i have someone who will do it for you.
> 
> It does look a great little roaster, any ideas on ballpark costs if BB go ahead?
> 
> Whats the little roaster on your high shelf also?


Thanks for that, but I think as far as all the techie stuff, they understand and in a sense the drawings I do help ensure they have a plan and we have a record of exactly what I want.

Oh sharp eyed one, the little roaster on the top shelf is my Quest M3 250-275g capacity, It's the one I intend to sell soon, because 3 roasters is 1 roaster too many.

*I can't give the actual price, mainly because I don't know what they will be yet, but if it goes ahead it will be an excellent price for what it delivers. * I guess what I can say is, a lot of people who pre-order the Aillo Bullet roaster, might well wish they had spent the extra money on one of these. Which if they go ahead, would be with us in less than 8 weeks after ordering. it's not going to be for everyone though, as it's quite heavy and would need to be sited in a workshop...I suppose it could be on a steel roller trolly, but it's never going to used in someone's house. For me the risk of 1 kilo of beans being roasted in a house, is simply not worth it.

The main thing about it is whether by design or serendipity the core of the roaster, drum and heating element design, they got absolutely perfect in terms of giving an even chaff free roast, with a great tolerance to high charge temps with no scorching. My main beef was with thermometry and control...I had others but those were easier to address. I actually installed my own thermocouple (made a thermowell for it as well) to see exactly what was happening with the bean mass/env temps, as the roaster did not have one, just that big (fairly useless) analogue gauge, although it looks pretty. it told me what I needed to know, with respect to all the changes I wanted, plus potential probe placements (as there will be more than 1 and more than 1 type), without compromising the drum. The problem is the vanes of the drum and ensuring the probe is deep enough into the roaster, but not so deep in contacts them. This makes placement difficult and limits exactly where you can put them. I don't want to change the vanes on the drum or anything about the drum...because that part is perfect.


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## DavecUK

Just had some good news, they have agreed to all my changes and it looks as if it's going to get the green light, a deal seems to have been reached. Only one worrying comment in their reply, it may be a chinglish thing, or it may be them wriggling trying to save cost, either way, I'm not going to let them get away with changing anything to save money if it makes it perform worse.

I'm very pleased about this as it's a very good roaster indeed and I have invested a lot of test time into it, as well as having to make certain things and fit them to the roaster to verify the correctness of changes I want. I personally hate to waste my time on things that don't come to the market, especially the amount of time I've spent on this roaster.

It can also roast really quite fast, but I dislike super fast roasting as it tends to raise the Environmental temperature and hence thermal stresses on the roaster e.g. heating elements, lubrication, belts etc.., because the bean temp always lags behind it and to force the roast, requires much higher environmental temps....plus relatively low airflow. neither of which is great for taste, especially on dry processed coffees. On this particular test roaster, I've managed a Kilo in around 9m to medium dark, but I wouldn't really want to roast that fast normally....all this at a max 2.5kW draw!


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## DavecUK

For anyone that is interested, I added a few photos of the drum assembly and heating elements to the Album, it's the last 7 or 8 photos

https://www.flickr.com/gp/[email protected]/rXn07M

It shows the double skinned chamber with the air inlet slots at the top. The stainless steel perforated drum is inside that. The drum itself is about 1.5mm thick stainless with a very thick front ring to prevent distortion and a substantial solid backplate, so rear bearing lubrication is never a worry. The heating elements wrap around about the top 60% of the drum, not the bottom, and I prefer this much better than bottom placement....it also gives nice even heating. As you can see the heating elements are super substantial, more so than on any electric roasters I have seen..and certainly much heftier than my Toper!

The entire removable drum assembly with heating elements and bearing is around 6kg+ in weight, it's a lot heavier than I thought it would be. you can also get a better sense for the very thick front plate of the roaster as it can be clearly seen in the first of the new photos with the cowling removed.

I wasn't going to bother uploading these, but then I thought as I have to photo it for my records and any later maintenance procedures, you might as well see it.


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## robashton

Wow.

I'm not into roasting and likely never will be but who wouldn't want that sat in their office? What a beautiful machine.


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## DavecUK

robashton said:


> Wow.
> 
> I'm not into roasting and likely never will be but who wouldn't want that sat in their office? What a beautiful machine.


It does look pretty...but at the moment the remaining fly in the ointment to importing them, is spares prices. The Chinese are trying it on with high spares prices and one of the important features of owning a roaster is that spares are affordable and easy to get hold of, not so expensive that retailers do not want to hold stocks. I want to ensure the community has a roaster that is:


capable of great roasting

well designed

easy to use and a pleasure to use

cheap to buy

reliable (as far as anything can be that roasts coffee all day)

easy and affordable to maintain


In some respects the items seem mutually exclusive, which is what makes negotiations difficult. I'd like everything, but I have to be reasonable, so I want everything that's important and that has a price. What I won't have is the manufacturer trying to make excessive profit on maintenance items. One thing I am grateful for it the opportunity to detail the changes I want to this roaster, to make it the best it can be, for the design and price.


----------



## MrShades

That heating element is impressive - well, the whole thing is!

Will start counting out my coppers jar and writing letters to Santa....


----------



## Coffeejon

Hi Dave

Really interesting to read your thread, thx for it.

Spoke to you in another thread about the Bullet R1. My main gripe about these type of roasters is you can't program them (same with the CBR 1200). I want to be able to program it as I need to be doing other things for the first part of the Roast. I only really want to attend the last critical part & once warmed up and roasting the same bean & profile set, could leave it to the machine.

Nobody apart from the bullet seems to be addressing this. (yup agree it's un-tried and tested roaster, so we'll see how it roasts







When you have time or it's your full time occupation these machines are lovely, but if time is short these kind of small roasters need to help you a little more.

Wonder what you think?


----------



## DavecUK

Coffeejon said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> Really interesting to read your thread, thx for it.
> 
> Spoke to you in another thread about the Bullet R1. My main gripe about these type of roasters is you can't program them (same with the CBR 1200). I want to be able to program it as I need to be doing other things for the first part of the Roast. I only really want to attend the last critical part & once warmed up and roasting the same bean & profile set, could leave it to the machine.
> 
> Nobody apart from the bullet seems to be addressing this. (yup agree it's un-tried and tested roaster, so we'll see how it roasts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When you have time or it's your full time occupation these machines are lovely, but if time is short these kind of small roasters need to help you time wise more.
> 
> Wonder what you think?


Well I can certainly see the attraction of using an automated system/computer to roast, although I have not ever used one. I do prefer to pay attention to the roaster, it doesn't stop me doing other things, but I'm not sure I would feel comfortable letting an automated system just get on with things. I prefer to check things are going as I expect and make a small adjustment if they are not...but that just may be a preference thing.

With the Bullet R1, there does seem to be the ability to connect it to a computer and so program the roast. On paper it looks an interesting roaster and possibly ground breaking.....it will be interesting to see it properly tested by people other than the manufacturer. There are still some unanswered questions for me, but hopefully these will be covered in the months following people receiving their roasters. I'm currently interested in

1. How it handles smoke, especially when roasting 0.5 to 1Kg

2. How people will vent it and is the airflow powerful enough for it to vent well through a few meters of duct.

3. When they will make the vent attachment

4. How the tryer is going to work, they say they will make bits allowing you to add it 3 months after the roaster is launched, but from the renderings, It's difficult to see how it will miss the 3 front support vanes of the drum, unless that's been changed?

5. What happens if you have a roaster fire, 1kg beans catching fire (will the legs melt, will it be contained, will the roaster be trashed), have they even tested this. Important because this is quite a lightweight design and there is use of plastics.

6. How will it work when roasting a full Kg

7. How much do parts cost and what's the availability

8. How will the warranty be supported, I realise preorders are 2 years parts and labour, but what exactly is the warranty?

9. What happens if they go under

As for reliability, no one can really say until it's been out a while as it's a very new design. I think it looks good and I think it's an excellent price for the home market. How will it roast will no doubt be reported on by many happy owners, but I will be interested to see how people with experience in the 1kg market find the results. I do love the idea of inductive heating though, even if it does restrict you to a mainly solid drum..

I'm pretty sure it would be possible for someone with the right knowledge to convert most manual roasters to to a computer roast program and control the heating elements that way. It does seem that small commercial craft roasters prefer not to though. At the end of the day a roaster at it's simplest, splits into 2 parts....the heating and the control system. The heating system can't really be changed for any roaster, it is what it is. The control system, on the other hand can be modified and added to over time by the owner. Sometimes a roaster works well because of this areas design, sometimes...it doesn't. Things I like are heating sources that are not at the bottom of the drum, or if they are, are indirect. I prefer the heat across the widest area of the drum possible. I like perforated drums (all round or back) and dislike totally solid ones. I especially like power control on roasters and dislike using air or on/off control to manage temperature. With power control (not temperature control) comes a lot of repeatability on electric roasters, because you know how much you're applying rather than reacting to something when it doesn't go as expected. I may add power control to my own Amazon Dalian is power control, in the same way I modded my CBR1200. As I have a second power control module (I bought 2 when they were £13 each).

I also like roasters to be as safe as they can be and tough enough to reasonably contain a roaster fire.....with the use of a CO2 extinguisher if necessary. *I would NEVER EVER want to roast a Kg of beans in the house and would strongly advise people against doing so.*

*
*

Here is an example of the 1st 2 roasts of the day, earlier this week, arguably the roaster was still warming up as you can see by the low charge temperature of the first roast. I introduced airflow at about 5m into the roast...in the second roast I introduced more air (to actually slow the roast).



*Roast 1. Brazilian to Medium Dark (a little too fast for me). Charge temp 143C, 1st crack 9m 30s, End of Roast 12m 40s *
*
*


*Roast 2. Brazilian to Medium Dark (way too fast for me). Charge temp 171C, 1st crack 8m 20s, End of Roast 11m 20s and pretty dark too......my ideal would be to stretch this roast out a little more.*


I also need to do some other tests, especially roasting 1.2Kg as this gives you 1kg of roasted and I think the roaster should easily handle more than1kg. especially as with a 1Kg batch size you could roast 5kg per hour if you wanted to roast it really fast...which I wouldn't. At the moment though, no more testing until the revised units come from China with the 2 in drum sensors one for Bean temp and one for ET/process control.


----------



## Coffeejon

DavecUK said:


> Things I like are heating sources that are not at the bottom of the drum, or if they are, are indirect. I prefer the heat across the widest area of the drum possible.


RE Bullet, As I understand induction, it heats the drum directly (I.e the actual drum is the heating element) so you should get the widest possible heating source possible, as the whole drum should be roughly the same temp.

i agree with all your points though.


----------



## DavecUK

Coffeejon said:


> RE Bullet, As I understand induction, it heats the drum directly (I.e the actual drum is the heating element) so you should get the widest possible heating source possible, as the whole drum should be roughly the same temp.
> 
> i agree with all your points though.


you are correct, induction heats the drum itself...I suspect only the portion of the drum directly above the induction coil heats, but as the drum is turning fairly quickly, that's not really a problem....


----------



## Rob1

I've been thinking of modding the gene with a bean mass probe. This guy went all out and added his own thermocouples to the element and exhaust for data logging too. The whole thing is controlled via a computer so automation is possible. http://roasthacker.com/?p=67


----------



## Dylan

Hi Dave,

How has your testing gone with this? Are you still smitten?

Is this now in the hands of the Manufacturer to introduce the changes and then discuss with BB?


----------



## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> How has your testing gone with this? Are you still smitten?
> 
> Is this now in the hands of the Manufacturer to introduce the changes and then discuss with BB?


All the changes I asked for are being done. I had to limit myself to production practical changes that maintain CE.....The manufacturer will be delivering the modified roasters to BB just after christmas...I have already seen mid production photos. I will then retest as I need to write a user guide...but also to confirm the changes are working as expected and correct the thermometry issues with the current roaster....which I have modified, it's not an ideal mod, but does test the production principles.

I personally will add a power controller to mine (when it comes) in addition to the other changes. In fact I already bought what should be a suitable one for less than £6 from china and it will mount using a single drilled hole in one of the removable panels. Wiring in will simply be connecting one of the heater wires to one terminal on the power controller and then placing wire from the power controllers second terminal to the heating element. Poking the potentiometer stalk through the panel and tightening the nut. This would be to give me the extra tight control I like, airflow is OK, but adding full power control is even better from my own perspective.

Am I still smitten with it...yes, I like it very much.


----------



## DavecUK

A friend popped over to grab some coffee yesterday and as I didn't have enough, I thought I would quickly roast a few kg. Then I realised it was a good opportunity to test an over capacity roast. It was the first roast after warmup of 18m and I placed 1.2Kg in the roaster. Apart from the usual minute extra on any first roast of the day, the roast went completely normally....the same as If I had only loaded 1kg, it's normal capacity. The ability to roast 20% over capacity in the same time and just as evenly is quite impressive. I was pretty sure 1200g was a definite possibility, because the roasting drum is quite large and also perforated which helps with that big wraparound heating element. The roast was also perfectly even and chaff free, the same as a 1kg roast.

As to why 1.2Kg is an important break point is because 1200g greens roasted always give you just over a kg green, allowing 4 x 250g bags or 2 500g bags. For small batch roasting it's just handy.


----------



## aaroncornish

Lovely looking roaster. Loving all the work you are putting into developing it.


----------



## DavecUK

aaroncornish said:


> Lovely looking roaster. Loving all the work you are putting into developing it.


it has been a lot of work, but have had some even better news today from the Chinese factory. We have had some more discussions and I have pushed them a little harder, so we're getting a few extra nice to have things as well. My basic concern when I first got the roaster was the relative lack of thermometry and control of the roast. It worked but was very very basic. Fortunately the pure mechanical design of the roaster, drum etc.. was so good that it allowed it to function quite well. In fact the mechanical side was simple, strong and perhaps just luck, but something about it works fantastically well, plus the heating element was absolutely the best design I have ever seen in a drum roaster. It has very very low watts per sq cm and covers a very large area outside the perforated drum. Much of this is what makes it able to roast at 20% above it's rated capacity (tested by me). In addition a heavy rear bearing that can be lubricated with NO possibility of lubricant getting into the roast chamber ever and a front maintenance free self lubricating bush. Although of course, I will be using a tiny maintenance routine for this as I like belt and braces.

*My thoughts were how much better/easier to use this could be with some changes and changes that are not just marketing fluff. We should be getting:*



*
*



*3 thermal sensors, 2 in the process (beans) and one in the outer drum chamber*
*
*


*Two high quality Platinum resistance probes connected to 2 independent controllers for process (bean) and outer drum chamber temps*
*
*


*The 3rd K type thermocouple sensor for connection to roast logging programs such as Artisan etc...*
*
*


*The temperature of the process and external temperature around the roasting drum can be monitored/controlled independently*


there are a lot of smaller items also changed, just because it made things a little nicer and the special chaff removal function essential to commercial operators. The last 2 points are more research points by me, during my investigations, especially around alternate sources of parts in the UK. Some parts can only be sourced from abroad, such as motors, although suitable substitute motors could be used with mounting changes...but the ones from China cost so much less. The only really bespoke parts apart from the metalwork, is the heating element which has to be bought from the manufacturer. All other parts can be sourced independently from the manufacturer (which is a very good thing).


Additional earth Bonding (beyond CE requirements) for the chaff collector (because I wasn't 100% happy)

Addition of specific chaff removal function, with safety heating element lock out (as is a full pulled air roaster, minimises any smoke release internally, but causes problems without a chaff removal function)

Improvements to cooling tray flap locking mechanism

Cooling tray access hole and panel moved from back to front of roaster

Extra Stand-off and support for powered chaff collector fan cable

Easy repair

Good parts availability (many parts can be bought cheaply in the UK, relay, belts, switches), parts that cannot, will be stocked


Here is an example of just the front control panel, before and after the redesign (factory photo).

https://www.flickr.com/photos/[email protected]/shares/1d2620

So looking forward to getting the redesigned roasters in Feb. They are a bespoke design for BB, and I'm not sure what pricing will be exactly, I just know it will be hugely competitive for what you're getting. Probably a lot cheaper than any comparable (and some lesser) commercial 1kg drum roasters on the market. I think BB may do a pre-order deal sometime in January, but that will probably be once they are completely paid for by BB and ready for shipping from China. I just have to make sure they don't sell the one earmarked for a permanent place in my workshop!!


----------



## froggystyle

Have you had all the revision parts sent for yours then?


----------



## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Have you had all the revision parts sent for yours then?


No, even though I used test sensors (placed as best as I could) and manual control to check it would all would work. Plus some was calculations, physics and experience. I HAVE to have a new build roaster, because even once preorders are done, I will be doing extensive testing and user guide. As basic roasting techniques (which will be different), tips and tricks, basic maintenance...all has to be covered. In addition I need to make absolutely sure everything is exactly as it should be. The existing test roaster can't easily be revised e.g. the front plate of the roaster is 14mm thick (which is like very very thick for a 1kg roaster, many 5+Kg roasters don't have front plates that thick), it's going to be very difficult for me to accurately drill through and then I would still have to tap a thread... Plus all the photography has to reflect the final roaster.

The front panel and electronics has been completely revised as well as the additional probes, not even the original single sensor is in the same place......so much it's just easier to get the revised roaster. Fortunately this ones already been snapped up by a local friend who understands what it is and what it won't have, although it does have some extra test sensors I put in myself. Once the new roaster comes he will get this one at a good knock down price...which will be less than it cost BB.

One thing I will be doing, (once the reviews are over) is the full power control mod on the new roaster....it's so easy and I already bought the parts £5.60 delivered for the power controller...that will appear shortly after as an allowable non warranty affecting mod on the Coffeetime Wiki. The main reason for the mod is just the extra level of control it brings to my roasting and for me I like to have as much absolute control over the process as I can. I would have asked the factory to include it....but I think I'd have lost the will to live trying to con vince them and then there is the language barrier.....a lot has to be done by electrical diagrams and computer drawings by me, to absolutely ensure they 100% understand me and I 100% understand them.


----------



## froggystyle

So when do you expect to receive the newer version to test?


----------



## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> So when do you expect to receive the newer version to test?


Can't remember how long the sea shipping is from China, probably 4-5 weeks, I would have thought build of 6 roasters will be ready by 1st week of Jan, so probably land in UK mid to late Feb 2016. I'll get one of the 6 roasters and I think the other 5 might well sell on the pre-order deal before they land in the UK. After that, assuming all is well production starts in batches of 10 roasters. It's a significant investment for BB, but they believe it's actually nice to have roasters in stock when someone wants one.....novel idea I know









I realise it's all taken a long time to get this roaster sorted, but better it's done right and we get the best we can in the UK....otherwise you might as well go to any Chinese/Turkish supplier and by a standard roaster on spec...at which point your problems might begin in terms of support, parts, instructions and how it works....plus you're not going to save much if anything after shipping, import and VAT, plus other customes charges and UK shipping... and that's against standard roasters not the bespoke one for BB. Personally, I think it's better not to stock/sell a roaster if it's no good....and it's not even my money.

P.S. I am pretty sure mine won't be air freighted as the cost for that is simply horrible


----------



## froggystyle

Yeah total shipping is about 5 weeks from china.

Will await the next review then.


----------



## DavecUK

Special heads up for forum members. I have had some communication and photos from China, all the modifications are finished the roasters are built and in a few days should load onto a ship bound for the UK. Everything has been done exactly to my requirements. The big changes to thermometry were to make a roaster that already roasts well even better, in terms of ease of roasting, controllability, thermal information and repeatability.

This should allow those who want to use roast logging software easy connection via standard methods and I suppose those who really want to computerise the roaster (not me), the ability to do so if they are very clever.

I have had more information on final pricing. There will be 6 roasters coming, all in the Golden colour as in the photos earlier in this thread, this is at no extra cost. The standard option option is steel. One is mine, there will be one demo one for Bella Barista, with 4 pre order launch ones available. * The Pre order launch pricing* will be extremely attractive at significantly less than 3K including VAT, so keep your eye out on the BB web site if you have been considering it....the price, for a commercial roaster of this class, is incredible *and there will be only 4 at the special price!*

The standard pricing is also going to be pretty competitive and a lot cheaper than any comparable roaster in it's class.

A few stats:


Weight 50+kg (I estimate nearer 60Kg-70kg), it's packed weight is 80Kg, but it's easier to transport in the back of any hatchback car, rather than have it delivered. 2 reasonably fit people can lift this roaster, one person cannot.

Stated Capacity 1 kg batch (Max tested capacity 1.2kg batch,and roast verified OK as I'm drinking it now), max throughput per hour 6kg (medium roast or very fast roasting) 4.8Kg per hour normal/slower roasting and darker roasts.

Voltage 220-240V (heating elements tested for this range)

Supports back to back roasting

Cooling in Separate cooling tray

Separate Chaff Cyclone (supplied)

3 motors (cooling tray arms, drum, airflow fan)

2 series connected controllers for temperature control (either can cut the heat), allowing rate of rise and/or max bean temp to be controlled, hi limit temperature (optional alarm)

Controllable airflow (manual)

3 Temperature sensors, PT100 sensors connect to dual temperature controllers: Bean Mass PT100, Drum outer chamber environment (PT100), Bean Mass/Environmental for roast logging software e.g. Artisan etc..(K type thermocouple)

Gold Coloured Finish as standard

Special Chaff removal function, allowing continuous roasting even when chaff is being removed

Max wattage at 242V is around 2380W, so only requires around 10 amps...e.g. a normal 13 amp plug will do

Plug and lead with built in RCD

Tryer so roast colour can be examined outside roaster, plus viewing window

14mm thick front plate (approx)...and that's very very thick!

Rear bearing external to roasting drum, high temperature lubricants cannot cause a contamination issue, front bearing is high grade self lubricating bush. No bearing adjustments are ever necessary.

Many parts can easily be sourced in the UK from vendors like RS components, and drum belts from places like Halfords, believe it or not

Roast times can


Remember, this is a commercial roaster, designed to be roasting all day...not a domestic roaster. It's not designed to be used in your house or apartment, there will be far too much smoke for that...unless of course you vent it through the wall. it takes 15-20m to warm up and 15-20m to cool down, roasts are essentially chaff free (which is unusual) and can be bagged from the cooling tray. I have not tried a minimum batch size, but I would think no less than 500g

P.S. Power control mod instructions will be available for you to do yourself if you want to and will not affect warranty


----------



## Dylan

Would you say this is aimed at people who are beginning to sell beans Dave, rather than the Home roaster roasting just for themselves?

I assume it is in a different class to the yet to be released or tested Aillio, considering its price is likely to be 1k or so higher... but then the Aillio is a serious consideration for the keen prosumer who wants to roast their own beans, does this offer that segment of the market anything over the Aillio?

I know this is all hypothetical until the Aillio is in hand and can be properly compared, but its interesting to know where you consider these to fit in the market.


----------



## DavecUK

Dylan said:


> 1. Would you say this is aimed at people who are beginning to sell beans Dave, rather than the Home roaster roasting just for themselves?
> 
> 2. I assume it is in a different class to the yet to be released or tested Aillio, considering its price is likely to be 1k or so higher... but then the Aillio is a serious consideration for the keen prosumer who wants to roast their own beans, does this offer that segment of the market anything over the Aillio?
> 
> 3. I know this is all hypothetical until the Aillio is in hand and can be properly compared, but its interesting to know where you consider these to fit in the market.


Some very big questions there

1. Yes this is a commercial roaster aimed at those who are beginning their first steps into the roasting business. This will prepare you for life with a larger drum roaster, the addition of a power controller (cost less than £10) would also prepare you for a gas drum roaster with a proper and expensive, fully modulating gas train (rather than a normal fixed on/off burner)...should you be lucky enough to step up to one of those. This then allows you to fix airflow and roast on thermal input should you desire.

2. It is in a different class in terms of construction, it's very simple, very easy to repair. There is not a lot to go wrong and most fixes can be done with basic tools in less than 15m. e.g. Replace: front bearing

In terms of hi tech electronics and computer control the Aillio is way ahead of not only this roaster, but most others on the market. Does the Bullet make a good roaster for the prosumer who wants to roast 1kg..on the face of it, and based on the information available, then yes it does. Although a cautionary note (see below).

*
You mentioned yet to be released or tested.* This model of Amazon roaster has been released and around for years. It has clearly been thoroughly tested by me and although it roasted real good, there were areas I wanted improved, like structural layout, assembly/design, thermometry, chaff removal, safety and suitability for a commercial environment all addressed, even down to extra securing nuts on the heating elements. *I spent many many hours researching parts costs and availability, so that a decent cost could be available for customers and in many cases you can source your parts direct from UK companies. *You can see in the photos on Flikr, that I pretty much stripped the roaster right down., which doesn't take long and requires only 1 or 2 hex bits, plus a small socket set.

I have roasted a LOT of coffee on it now (mine is a pre modification roaster), in fact it's the only roaster I have used since Oct 15, all my roast sharers have noticed the difference in a good way....especially the lack of chaff on the beans which is exceptional, my old toper left lots more chaff than this. Even little things like the cooling tray stirrers actually work and clear all the beans from the tray come time to bag up. Cooling is excellent, literally a couple of minutes, absolutely no problems there. Roasts super, super even, best I have ever seen from a roaster, right up there with a 1960s Probat 25kg roaster I used. It's unusual (but correct) for a Retailer to request a roaster is thoroughly tested, stripped down photographed....and then changes made if required, rather than the retailer just starting to sell them?

*
You lastly asked if it offers the prosumer market segment anything over the Aillio...this is a difficult one, because I have not tested the Aillio yet*. It would be easy to say the Bullet is cheaper, has fancy electronics and software (it even speaks apparently), it's lighter and more portable, it uses induction (more modern) and looks modern. However, the Allio ships without a Tryer and a bean Tryer is more important than people realise (unless you have a fantastic view of the beans like on the CBR1200 and then it's only colour). With a Tryer you get a look at static unmoving beans out under your normal standardised roasting light. you can see expansion (frogs and toads), plus other clues and colour that is hard (impossible) to see in a moving bean mass, or behind a small viewing window. It's also possible, but you would need to be quick, to pull enough samples at say 20 second intervals (2 or 3 fast samples of 4-5g every 20 seconds), to be able to grind 10-12g and cup them for aroma and taste. so in the last 2 minutes of a roast you could pull 5 or 6 samples to try. It's what a lot of roasters do on the much larger roaster, on the big probat a single sample would pull around 15g+ of beans.

In the event of a fire, the Amazon roasters drum can be left turning but all the airflow stopped and all ventilation to the drum closed, this allows a fire to burn itself out inside the roaster without drum distortion (because you stopped it rotating), the front bush is immune to the sort of temperatures it could reach, the rear bearing can be re-lubricated. The roaster opened and the drum/drum chamber cleaned, the heating elements cleaned and the roaster returned to service. You "might" have to replace the belt at the cost of a few pounds (I doubt it would break, but it might get overheated), all the electronics, fans, motors should be fine. It would be a few hours work to clean it up, but you should be good to go again. in this scenario it's simplicity and ruggedness (weight of metal), works for you.

The Amazon forces you to roast your 1 or 1.2Kg of beans in a workshop and vent it either out of a window, or through the wall, it's too heavy to carry this into your kitchen to roast under a cooker hood. Roasting smoke is an irritant and presumably potentially carcinogenic. I certainly wouldn't want to breathe a lot of it in. A roaster stinks and this stink is directly proportional to it's size. I think the smell of a 1kg roaster stored in the house or apartment would become unpleasant. For me, the restriction of having to use the Amazon it in a proper environment.....it's a good thing.

Traditional drum roasters go on for decades, sure they might need a new belt, sometimes a motor, perhaps a heating element....but they will go on for decades. this is because they are so simple. The Amazon roaster 10 years on, should look the same as the day you bought it, assuming you do the basics to look after it. It's likely to have most (all) the same parts it had when new, except perhaps a belt a relay and perhaps a heating element. If you sell it, you would probably get what you paid for it and it would be easy to sell....I guess that's quite an attractive prospect for a Prosumer customer and some will roast share and cover some of the cost of the roaster that way.

3. The Aillio Bullet roaster "should" (a guess) fit the needs of most prosumer home roasters, some will buy it and use it as a commercial roaster, but I am not sure that's a good idea and certainly their warranty would be most likely be void. The Amazon "will" (because it's designed that way) meet the needs of the commercial roaster and the prosumer who is thinking about becoming a commercial roaster or roasting for their shop, cart etc.. There is also the prosumer roaster with a workshop, time and inclination to really get hands on over every aspect of the roasting process, someone who wants the best roast possible. The extra 800-1000 extra costis not a major consideration, they know they can always get most/all of it back. There won't be many prosumer roasters like this, but for those few...the Amazon "will" deliver.

*It has become my favourite roaster, I love using it, it's very tactile and you feel connected with the whole roasting in a way only possible with this type of roaster. sure it takes a while to warm up and cool down, but I love using it....that's really important and the coffee from it is fantastic!*

P.S. Chaff is a little obsession of mine and I do everything I can to remove all of it. With the 1kg Toper I used to stand outside in the breeze tipping the beans from one basket to another for a few minutes, with the CBR 1200, I do the same for about 40-60 sec...there's still a little chaff left of course. With the Big Probat, running it through the destoner got rid of a lot of chaff...the beans from the Amazon come out with almost nothing on them in terms of chaff. I don't like chaff at all because I firmly believe it imparts undesirable flavours to the cup

Cautionary Note: I also have the El Roccio Zarre espresso machine on test. Lots of things claimed/implied about the machine, by the manufacturer and by people who have "seen" it in action, or tried it. So much so that people even believe it does things it doesn't. I am testing it and it's quite a different machine not quite what I expected.


----------



## Coffeejon

Thx Dave, interesting write up. I may have a look if at BB.

On a side note, I think Gene Cafe are missing a trick on their CBR-101 roaster. They are the perfect step before this and the bullet, all they need to add is a way to control the roasting similar to the Bullet, so you can set bean profiles, control from a computer etc. If they did this it would be the ultimate small roaster (also then port it over to the CBR-1200) I'd would buy these directly if they did, carn't be a huge mod for them?


----------



## froggystyle

Anyone want to buy a CBR1200 !


----------



## DavecUK

Coffeejon said:


> Thx Dave, interesting write up. I may have a look if at BB.
> 
> On a side note, I think Gene Cafe are missing a trick on their CBR-101 roaster. They are the perfect step before this and the bullet, all they need to add is a way to control the roasting similar to the Bullet, so you can set bean profiles, control from a computer etc. If they did this it would be the ultimate small roaster (also then port it over to the CBR-1200) I'd would buy these directly if they did, carn't be a huge mod for them?


Oh don't get me started on that....when I did the 1st power control mod write up on the CBR101 many many years ago now...I wrote to them and explained how they could modify their roaster to remove all the problems, make it better and cheaper for them to manufacture.


Only 2 heating elements required to be manufactured, one heating element 100V for US/Japan and another 200V for rest of world

Auto Voltage regulation (roaster adjusts max power for detected voltage

Power based roasting (so no longer voltage dependent)

Roaster lasts longer because doesn't get as hot

Roaster roasts faster, because heating element imparts more energy, but at a lower temperature

Simple computer control (they could have been doing most of what the Bullet might do 8 years ago)

I even suggested they make a 500g Gene


However it's even more difficult to get the South Koreans to listen...this is because they are very very clever engineers, but sometimes they forget other people have good ideas to. I have come across the same thing with the El Roccio Harre espresso machine.

I have also sent them photos of my Modified CBR1200 roaster, with it's power control knob on the front panel and again explained how it roasts at least 20% faster for lower max temperatures and still they don't listen....just care about sales numbers.

With this current Amazon custom roaster, it was really hard to get the Chinese to listen, they initially play dumb that they don't understand. However once they realised BB were (a) serious about having it made right (custom) and (b), I might know a little bit about roasting. and roasters...they started to co-operate properly. Suddenly things because easy, their English improved and my circuit diagrams and drawings were easily understood. I think they realised all we wanted to do was take this little entry level roaster and make it the very best it can be...we don't care if it steals sales from their much more expensive "luxury" models of 1kg roaster.



froggystyle said:


> Anyone want to buy a CBR1200 !


Ah don't be like that, the CBR1200 also has it's place. It's more automated, easier to use in a shop environment and with a power control mod and very nice little roaster. For sure I didn't know anything about this little drum roaster at the time, but such is life. I'm hoping the next projects will be looking at larger roasters in the 2-3kg range and the 5-6kg range, unfortunately beyond 2kg it's generally wise to get gas, although you do sacrifice a lot of control for that. Plus it's a lot more difficult with the installation.


----------



## froggystyle

I love the CBR1200, but like you i am really anal over the chaff, you get less on the 1200 than the 101 but it does annoy me.

Trying to work out how to afford this new one whilst keeping the 1200, new kidney anyone?


----------



## Dylan

Thanks for the extensive write up Dave, super informative.


----------



## froggystyle

Any plans to do an open day like you did on the 1200 at BB Dave ?


----------



## h1udd

froggystyle said:


> Anyone want to buy a CBR1200 !


I was just about to reply "yes", then I saw the price of them new, guess I'll be waiting for a 101 to come up cheap


----------



## froggystyle

Could do you a good deal


----------



## h1udd

it would be the cheeky offer to end ALL cheeky offers .. unless you are giving it away (i.e. 101 secondhand prices) I would suggest you deliver it to me in person and when you leave take my car as payment


----------



## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Any plans to do an open day like you did on the 1200 at BB Dave ?


I had not planned to, because I won't get the modified roaster until Mid feb or even a bit later and I instantly have lots of work to do to finalise the proper user/roasting guide (because it's going to be different to what I have here), plus cover off maintenance, spares etc.., fair bit of work to do. I would imagine Steve (their Head Roaster) would also be quite keen to do those at BB. I am sure he will want to check out my instructions and roasting guidance and probably add some of his own.

As always, anyone is always welcome to come to my place and see it, when I get the modified one. If more than one person wants to come, I'm happy to organise a day.

There are 6 roasters coming over in the first batch, mine the BB demo one and 4 others. At the moment I believe one of the 4 available to purchase at the preorder launch price is already spoken for....which now leaves 3. There will be more coming, assuming it all works out well, but of course they take time to build and ship...although I understand there are likely to be 2 pricings after launch. Pre Order price, if they are still on the water, or being built and a higher price if they have landed and are in stock.



> I love the CBR1200, but like you i am really anal over the chaff, you get less on the 1200 than the 101 but it does annoy me.
> 
> Trying to work out how to afford this new one whilst keeping the 1200, new kidney anyone?


Well I dislike chaff for good reason, it's been there for most of the roasting process and I believe absorbs stuff you don't want. So it's right to be anal about chaff. I thought the CBR1200 would be chaff free, but it isn't, the Toper 1kg certainly wasn't, loads of chaff on that. I "think" the reason this roaster has so little chaff, is the perforated drum and very very good mixing, both mechanical abrasions seem to remove the chaff well and it can easily exist the drum. One huge advantage of the Amazon roaster is that the heating elements are not at the bottom so the chaff can collect there and smoulder away slowly, whilst the bottom airflow draw keeps all that smoke away from the coffee. It's better than many large roasters for chaff clearance and as good as the best I have come across.

I'm keeping the CBR1200, because I sort of collect stuff, 3 dual boiler espresso machines, 2 roasters with a 3rd to come. I like to have a spare 1kg roaster, but I think it's an extravagance. I think you will have to sell the CBR1200 if you want one of these, as 2 roasters is just greedy and you cant roast on both at once unless you got 24 or 25 amps supply.

P.S. You should power control mod your CBR 1200 though, works even better.


----------



## froggystyle

What is going to happen to the one you have on the bench then when you get the revised model?


----------



## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> What is going to happen to the one you have on the bench then when you get the revised model?


Already spoken for..., because it's being sold for less than it cost BB to bring it in.


----------



## titanium

Hi Dave,

Firstly thanks for all the work you have done with this roaster!! And the other indepth reviews you have done. They have been really useful to me.

I'm really excited about this roaster.

But I am not sure whether to go for a pre-order or wait until any problems are ironed out and go for a later batch.

I guess its difficult to say but do you envisage any more changes to the roaster now?

Thanks,


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Firstly thanks for all the work you have done with this roaster!! And the other indepth reviews you have done. They have been really useful to me.
> 
> I'm really excited about this roaster.
> 
> But I am not sure whether to go for a pre-order or wait until any problems are ironed out and go for a later batch.
> 
> I guess its difficult to say but do you envisage any more changes to the roaster now?
> 
> Thanks,


No I don't think so, not anything that will make any major difference, it's as good as it can be and still stay reasonable without a complete re-engineer. *Remember, it already roasts really really well and that's no exaggeration!* So it's not exactly going to be made worse.

There is perhaps one change I would like to see, but I don't think the Chinese will ever do it, if they do, they always want too much for doing something and hence the retail price of the roaster goes up too much. It's something an owner can do anyway for the price of a fish and chip dinner at the local chip shop, and probably in as much time as it takes you to walk there and back. That is power control....simple SCR power controller in line with the heating element. Allows you to keep airflow the same and roast by power, rather than changing airflow or allowing the controllers to switch the heater on and off.

Bella Barista can't legally do the mod because of CE, but an owner can. As soon as I get mine, complete the user guide and final review, I will mod it for power control (as I have done my CBR 1200). I already have the parts, cost me £6 (plus I bought a new proper mains voltage electrical crimper for £7). I will put the mod in the Wiki.

I think your pre-order problems might soon be solved anyway. I'm still proof reading this bloody pre-launch review document to send them on Monday, but so far 1 of the 4 pre-launch roasters has definitely had a deposit put on it, I think a second may also have gone. So there may be only 2 left. People have been phoning and putting deposits down. It's a bit annoying as I might as well not have bothered with this interim document.


----------



## DavecUK

Well the review for the pre-launch roasters is up on the Bella Barista site....enjoy

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/bellabarista-dalian-amazon-1-kg-roaster.html


----------



## Coffeejon

DavecUK said:


> Well the review for the pre-launch roasters is up on the Bella Barista site....enjoy
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/bellabarista-dalian-amazon-1-kg-roaster.html


Great review Dave, really detailed! As you know I'm not going to get this Roaster, but you make a good point that it is good practice for larger roasters. I keep this in mind as I hope my coffee roasting business grows as this may be an interesting next step. Keep up the good work!


----------



## Dylan

Very nice Dave, I'm assuming when they refer to "we" in the description they mean "our good friend DaveC"









Maybe it's just me, but the first bit of the description seems a bit off grammatically



> This is a very exciting 1 KG Roaster We had the first sample back in October 2015 after rigorous tests we were impressed with the roaster but felt with some improvement is could be a very good roaster


I know it's just gone up, so may well be revised, I feel like it should be a bit more like -



> This is a very exciting 1 KG Roaster. We had the first sample back in October 2015 and after rigorous tests we were very impressed but felt with some improvement is could be even better.


----------



## hotmetal

IT could be even better. You've introduced your own mistake there LOL!


----------



## Dylan

Haha, irony is a bitch.


----------



## froggystyle

You bored @Dylan ?


----------



## Dylan

How did you know.


----------



## DavecUK

Well I hope anyone who wanted one of these at the £2800 launch price got one, just looked on the web site and they appear to have taken deposits ("sold") for all of them that were available already. I would guess that the next batch won't land until Mid May 2016 or a little later....


----------



## froggystyle

See they have landed!!




__ https://www.facebook.com/bellabaristauk/posts/1144185438955675


----------



## h1udd

Ooooh pretty


----------



## DavecUK

They do look nice don't they. What's really good, is that they have managed a £2900 inc VAT pre-order price..with the pound crashing against the dollar, I wonder how long that will last...because they pay an agreed (last year) dollar price for the roaster.

I get the revised model tomorrow and will start work ensuring they have done what they said, test it, find the best controller settings, get some quick start stuff written so that the early adopters can pick up their roasters on Monday week and start using them. I'll need about a week to get it all done. I also want to make sure BB have a good check-list to test/examine all the roasters before they go out.

Quite looking forward to the weekend....









P.S. I actually thought the Bullet roaster would be delivered long before these...


----------



## johnealey

Will follow with interest as paid my deposit for one of the 2nd batch due April. Can't see the price being any better than what it is currently for second batch ( apart from first batch of course).

Think there were only 5 left of second batch yesterday when looked so not many left.

John


----------



## DavecUK

johnealey said:


> Will follow with interest as paid my deposit for one of the 2nd batch due April. Can't see the price being any better than what it is currently for second batch ( apart from first batch of course ).
> 
> Think there were only 5 left of second batch yesterday when looked so not many left.
> 
> John


Ah another to join the club...well done John!

I sorta lost track of future orders, my main focus was this first batch and of course "my" roaster. With the preorder price, I also don't see it getting any better, if the pound continues to be low against the dollar I suspect they may have to increase it.. I believe they ordered another 10, so 5 gone already...not bad. There of course is a spin off for all of us, in that more people that have them, more shared knowledge going forward. People are inventive and I suspect they will come up with a lot of things I never thought of.

I will probably be modding mine for full power control pretty soon after I get it (I have all the stuff to do it already). I'll publish the mod, because it's easy to do and cheap as well. Hopefully loads of people will do the mod as I would again like to share knowledge. I'll be making sure it's not a warranty affecting mod of course.


----------



## johnealey

having got used to power control on the little gene, looking forward to continuing my learning with at least power as a constant









Looking forward to reading then sharing

John


----------



## DavecUK

The revised roaster arrived today, it's amazing the extra work the Chinese did, rather than try and make do and mend. They actually increased the size of the housing for the electronics, so it wouldn't be too cramped. The quality of finish has been further improved and all the changes so far have met or exceeded expectations. I guess there's lots of little things owners will never know were done. It does prove that the Chinese can manufacture a decent quality product, if your on top of the situation and they understand exactly what it is you want.

Sure it's a roaster and it's an industrial device, but for the money I think the finish is really excellent. I had not seen the packing crate before, but they are so well packed, it ensures nothing gets damaged in transit (from China to UK). I couldn't photograph it unfortunately because there was too much to do this morning.

*If anyone on here has bought a roaster, I strongly recommend you go and collect it.....there is an alternative service which I enjoyed and I hope BB make available to you. A chap named Doug Swanson delivered my roaster.* He couldn't have been more helpful, assisting lifting the old one off the bench and into my friends car (with my friends help), bought the new one in and although the top of the box was off, helped unpack and lift it into place. He collects the roaster at BB and delivers right to your door. Not a cheap service, but not as expensive as you might think...and he couldn't have been more helpful. Of course within the same fee, all your coffee can also be delivered and anything else along with the roaster. *If you are within 100 miles of BB, I think well worth the money.*


----------



## hotmetal

That's good to hear on both counts. I had heard of Doug being mentioned by someone else on here as being an excellent trusted courier when many couriers have proven either incapable or unwilling to accept certain items. Great that the manufacturers took your feedback on board and have gone the extra mile to produce a great machine rather than done the minimum.


----------



## Joel.Sim

Very interesting little roaster.

Do you know if the improvements they've made are across the board or just for those delivering to you guys??

A gas version could be interesting as a profiling roaster here for me ?


----------



## ItalianBrew

Oh my word, that roaster looks like a gentleman's gidget gadget from a H.G.Wells movie, it's gorgeous, thank you so much for sharing the entire process you have gone through in your rigorous testing of this product, never going to own one myself of course but I still very much enjoyed the journey with you, thank you.









PS: don't suppose the beans you plan sending will be roasted in this roaster, that would be so awesome.


----------



## DavecUK

ItalianBrew said:


> Oh my word, that roaster looks like a gentleman's gidget gadget from a H.G.Wells movie, it's gorgeous, thank you so much for sharing the entire process you have gone through in your rigorous testing of this product, never going to own one myself of course but I still very much enjoyed the journey with you, thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> PS: don't suppose the beans you plan sending will be roasted in this roaster, that would be so awesome.


Yes, you have a few bags all roasted on the Dalian Amazon roaster on it's way to you...I dropped them of at the parcel shop today....because I am a skinflint I used the Hermes service, so it could be Wednesday before you get them. I suspect they may play football with them, as well. All high quality single origins (might have lobbed a blend in for you as well), ignore the cheap prices on the bags, those are my roast sharer prices. They basically pay the wholesale price of the coffee, plus a tad towards the roaster. So what looks ridiculously cheap would cost 2-3 times that bought online. Some are test roasts, so pm me with your thoughts.

After I roasted the bags I sent to you, I finally got to grips with the revised roaster (joking slightly here of course). It's performing really well and all the thermometry is working exactly as I expected. There are 3 probes


In the bean mass (linked to controller1 can switch heat off/on)

Inner drum environmental

Outside drum environmental about 15mm below drum, in the double skin area which is partially ventilated, but away from the heating elements, (linked to controller2 can switch heat off/on)


interesting to see the very different readings of each as the roast progresses (just wish I had an extra set of eyes). The other great thing about the roaster is large heating element with a watt density of approx 4 W/cm2. This means unlikely to pop with any amount of abuse and should have a long life. It also means no super hot spots when heating. Watt density is quite an important thing for heaters, especially if you want to vary the airflow from 0 to quite a lot without them breaking and give them a long life. I have roasted quite a lot in the revised roaster now and I'm loving it. I was going to power control it, but I don't think I'm going to want to....I'll see what the summer brings, but it's satisfying me as it is.

Warm up times are between 20-25 minutes depending on ambients and Medium to medium dark roasts can be achieved in 13 minutes (or less, but it's inadvisable)....all this in 6C ambient temperatures and 234V (giving a watt consumption of about 2400W. If the mains is up at 240-242, then it will draw around 2550W. if anyone is waiting for their roaster, I am working on the quick-start guide (have completed Bella Baristas pre delivery inspection guide), before they get shipped.

Back to the grindstone.....


----------



## ItalianBrew

Wow, that's awesome Buddy, I will let you know what I think to the blends, don't go hoping for any "hmmm, some mild orange rind there in the background with a hint of bovril on the side", I'm crap with that stuff, a coffee either tastes great or shite to me, I like the way some taste more than others of course and some coffee's I find totally gross so I'll give you a ranking from shite to where the hell do I get more of this heavenly stuff.


----------



## ItalianBrew

Blimey, that was weird but also awesome, the beans just arrived Dave, ooooooooohhh yes, Columbian, that's it, I'm officially having a tantrum that my tamper isn't here yet, no fair, don't want to try that with my Moka Pot, it's alright for crappy supermarket beans but not for something special, REALLY looking forward to try those out, thanks Buddy.


----------



## Nobodysdriving

I got a bag of Guatemalan roasted beans from Dave, they were really good, it was like drinking hazelnuts!

Dave was that roasted in the Dalian?


----------



## DavecUK

Nobodysdriving said:


> I got a bag of Guatemalan roasted beans from Dave, they were really good, it was like drinking hazelnuts!
> 
> Dave was that roasted in the Dalian?


It was yes...one of my lighter roasts, but still within medium territory.



ItalianBrew said:


> Blimey, that was weird but also awesome, the beans just arrived Dave, ooooooooohhh yes, Columbian, that's it, I'm officially having a tantrum that my tamper isn't here yet, no fair, don't want to try that with my Moka Pot, it's alright for crappy supermarket beans but not for something special, REALLY looking forward to try those out, thanks Buddy.


Wow...that was fast, I didn't expect you would get them until Wednesday. I can't remember exactly what coffees I put in the parcel, but I think it was a reasonable selection....I just kept going until I couldn't fit any more in







....enjoy.

P.S. Don't freeze them, they will still drink fairly awesome even 6 weeks after roasting.


----------



## DavecUK

Joel.Sim said:


> Very interesting little roaster.
> 
> Do you know if the improvements they've made are across the board or just for those delivering to you guys??
> 
> A gas version could be interesting as a profiling roaster here for me ?


Joel, just realised I never commented on your post. The improvements should be just for the Bella Barista roasters, however, I do think one is being ordered by someone in Australia via Bella Barista, but delivered direct from factory (because it's closer)...don't really know the details? *You know what it's like though, it becomes hard to uninvent something. The Chinese manufacturers now know how to make their roaster better and of course much easier to use. *What they actually don't know (yet), is how I roast with it...and that's is not the same way they do. Of course, they are manufacturers, not speciality roasters. It might seem strange that they can make a thing but not know how to best use it, but I suppose although they manufactured it, it took someone who roasts (and cares) to insist/help them make it right!

In a way I hope they continue to make the original and the Bella Barista modified version, because it's cost Bella Barista a lot of money and taken a long time to get this far....so they deserve some benefit from the whole process. if they don't get it...then what possible incentive can they have for doing anything similar again....and the UK user is again left to self import from China/Turkey etc..Plus, I am encouraging Bella Barista to start looking at the 2 and 5kg roasters from Amazon, as they seem to be a company I can work with should improvements/modifications be required.

I had a few little things I thought could get added with this 1kg, but after testing out the revised version, I realise it doesn't need them and it's as good as it can be for a manual roaster in that price range. I also don't think the market would easily take something more expensive....it's a good price point.


----------



## Joel.Sim

DavecUK said:


> Joel, just realised I never commented on your post. The improvements should be just for the Bella Barista roasters, however, I do think one is being ordered by someone in Australia via Bella Barista, but delivered direct from factory (because it's closer)...don't really know the details? *You know what it's like though, it becomes hard to uninvent something. The Chinese manufacturers now know how to make their roaster better and of course much easier to use. *What they actually don't know (yet), is how I roast with it...and that's is not the same way they do. Of course, they are manufacturers, not speciality roasters. It might seem strange that they can make a thing but not know how to best use it, but I suppose although they manufactured it, it took someone who roasts (and cares) to insist/help them make it right!
> 
> In a way I hope they continue to make the original and the Bella Barista modified version, because it's cost Bella Barista a lot of money and taken a long time to get this far....so they deserve some benefit from the whole process. if they don't get it...then what possible incentive can they have for doing anything similar again....and the UK user is again left to self import from China/Turkey etc..Plus, I am encouraging Bella Barista to start looking at the 2 and 5kg roasters from Amazon, as they seem to be a company I can work with should improvements/modifications be required.
> 
> I had a few little things I thought could get added with this 1kg, but after testing out the revised version, I realise it doesn't need them and it's as good as it can be for a manual roaster in that price range. I also don't think the market would easily take something more expensive....it's a good price point.


No worries Dave. Thanks for taking the time to write a thorough answer.


----------



## Joel.Sim

Hmmm only just thought to ask you - @DavecUK - another thing...

How does your Quest M3 compare as far as controlling the roast, temperature change speed and so on??


----------



## ItalianBrew

DavecUK said:


> P.S. Don't freeze them, they will still drink fairly awesome even 6 weeks after roasting.


I would never freeze beans, makes the oils leave the beans or something along those lines, bad mojo for beans any way, just waiting on y tamper to arrive and I'll be in Coffee heaven.


----------



## DavecUK

Joel.Sim said:


> Hmmm only just thought to ask you - @DavecUK - another thing...
> 
> How does your Quest M3 compare as far as controlling the roast, temperature change speed and so on??


The Quest is a smaller roaster, so it's quite nimble. Mine was quite a good one, it could roast fast or slow, without any need for additional insulation as many seem to use. But it was an early one with thicker drum. It was a specific 230V model as well. The fan really only works from about setting 4-maximum, below 4 it does nothing. That said the fan is not really the way to control the roast...you set your air to say 5, then control the roast using power. It's important to use a power measuring plug that is accurate, with that then it's quite possible with work and experience to reproduce a profile.

The Quest is one of those little jewels, made of steel, very, very quiet that simply works. It's a miniature drum roaster....but very expensive to buy new for the 250-300g batch size and realistically I usually do 250g to 275g in it. I have done 300g and it works, but the roast isn't as even. I only sold mine because I simply wasn't using it...it had sat on the shelf for 2 years unused...which is a waste. I think there will be another used one coming up shortly, it's done a lot more roasting than mine, but I know has been used with care.....I'd keep your eye out if you interested in one. It's from the person who bought the Dalian Amazon test roaster I had for the last 6 months.

Other than that it's difficult to compare them this is a 1kg roaster with a much larger thermal mass and even capable of roasting 1.2kg without any problem....of course it's not as nimble as the quest and is a little more difficult to control...but with mass comes a better roast..but more money. It's also built to roast batch after batch hour after hour, day after day.


----------



## Joel.Sim

DavecUK said:


> The Quest is a smaller roaster, so it's quite nimble. Mine was quite a good one, it could roast fast or slow, without any need for additional insulation as many seem to use. But it was an early one with thicker drum. It was a specific 230V model as well. The fan really only works from about setting 4-maximum, below 4 it does nothing. That said the fan is not really the way to control the roast...you set your air to say 5, then control the roast using power. It's important to use a power measuring plug that is accurate, with that then it's quite possible with work and experience to reproduce a profile.
> 
> The Quest is one of those little jewels, made of steel, very, very quiet that simply works. It's a miniature drum roaster....but very expensive to buy new for the 250-300g batch size and realistically I usually do 250g to 275g in it. I have done 300g and it works, but the roast isn't as even. I only sold mine because I simply wasn't using it...it had sat on the shelf for 2 years unused...which is a waste. I think there will be another used one coming up shortly, it's done a lot more roasting than mine, but I know has been used with care.....I'd keep your eye out if you interested in one. It's from the person who bought the Dalian Amazon test roaster I had for the last 6 months.
> 
> Other than that it's difficult to compare them this is a 1kg roaster with a much larger thermal mass and even capable of roasting 1.2kg without any problem....of course it's not as nimble as the quest and is a little more difficult to control...but with mass comes a better roast..but more money. It's also built to roast batch after batch hour after hour, day after day.


Thanks yet again for a thorough answer.

I'm already pretty familiar with the Quest so it was a semi loaded question. But your response reinforces my thoughts of just continuing to use it for sample roasts and "ballpark" profile experiments.










11 sample batches through it yesterday. Unfortunately only 100g of each, so it gets a bit unpredictable, but not so bad.

Interesting thought on the power measuring plug, I have one and hadn't thought to use it for that.

Also modified the fan control so it's got a better range on it.

I'll stop now as this isn't a Quest M3 thread.

Thanks heaps for your replies.


----------



## DavecUK

Joel.Sim said:


> Thanks yet again for a thorough answer.
> 
> I'm already pretty familiar with the Quest so it was a semi loaded question. But your response reinforces my thoughts of just continuing to use it for sample roasts and "ballpark" profile experiments.
> 
> 11 sample batches through it yesterday. Unfortunately only 100g of each, so it gets a bit unpredictable, but not so bad.
> 
> Thanks heaps for your replies.


I think it's ideal for the use your putting it to...certainly gives a slightly better result than the little Probat type sample roasters as it's closer to what your 8- 12kg? roaster will be doing, well closer than those Probat barrel things (or similar)would be. It always annoys me that the samples they send are so small (about 150g or less). I think 300g would be an ideal size tbh. Of course a big roaster is going to be very different and not nimble at all. I have roasted on a 1960s 25kg probat and if it was going too fast...there wasn't much you could do about it. You had to keep to the 25kg batch size, as everything was set up to roast batches of that size. If you used a smaller batch, she was away and not much could be done...perhaps turn off 1/3 or 2/3 of the burners a bit early.

Personally I'd recommend roasting larger batches for profiling samples..., you have the coffee there, another few hundred grams isn't going to hurt and I think it will give a better idea of how the big roaster is going to do....besides the profiles can't be too fancy, because most likely the bigger roaster won't be able to follow them.


----------



## Joel.Sim

DavecUK said:


> I think it's ideal for the use your putting it to...certainly gives a slightly better result than the little Probat type sample roasters as it's closer to what your 8- 12kg? roaster will be doing, well closer than those Probat barrel things (or similar)would be. It always annoys me that the samples they send are so small (about 150g or less). I think 300g would be an ideal size tbh. Of course a big roaster is going to be very different and not nimble at all. I have roasted on a 1960s 25kg probat and if it was going too fast...there wasn't much you could do about it. You had to keep to the 25kg batch size, as everything was set up to roast batches of that size. If you used a smaller batch, she was away and not much could be done...perhaps turn off 1/3 or 2/3 of the burners a bit early.
> 
> Personally I'd recommend roasting larger batches for profiling samples..., you have the coffee there, another few hundred grams isn't going to hurt and I think it will give a better idea of how the big roaster is going to do....besides the profiles can't be too fancy, because most likely the bigger roaster won't be able to follow them.


Yeah I have pretty good consistent and controlled results with 200g batches in it.

It'll be a good way to get an idea of what the greens like before throwing several kilos per batch in the "big" one (Petroncini 5/10).

Indeed 100g samples from the supplier yesterday were a bit of a nightmare, but oh well. Had a batch the week before all in the 150g range and they were far more manageable.

Either way, as I said, it'll give me some good "ballpark" profiles. The Petroncini is convection roasting, so an entirely different beast.

Thanks again. Kinda nice to get thoughts confirmed sometimes.


----------



## DavecUK

Yummy...!


----------



## johnealey

Nice and even, what are they?

John


----------



## jlarkin

johnealey said:


> Nice and even, what are they?
> 
> John


*drum roll please* correct me if I'm wrong Dave but I'm pretty sure that's coffee beans? :-D


----------



## DavecUK

johnealey said:


> Nice and even, what are they?
> 
> John


They are Nicaraguan La Bastilla Estate El Buey Microlot....looking forward to them.


----------



## titanium

Hi Dave,

I would be grateful for some advice....I took the plunge and went for a Dalian roaster. It certainly looks the business....

I think I have a lot of learning to do....I started her up yesterday and even appeared to have messed up the warm up phase....

Firstly my roaster takes 2700w.

When doing the warm up I did pull out the smoke damper a little further compared to whats in your user guide to account for the increased power. But basically what happened at warm up is it overshot the 240 mark (air temperature) and kept on rising to past 255, E2 then was shown on the display. By this point i had the smoke damper fully out and after a couple of minutes the temperature started to fall. Before the temparature hit 240 I did have the smoke damper pretty much fully out. I didn't really find the point where the roaster recyled in temperature around 240. But it seemed only having the damper fully out would cause the temperature drop. I think what I realised was moving the damper does not have an immediate effect, the effect appears a couple of mins later? Not sure yet, but it appears that only having the damper at 6cm,7cm or 8cm out has a noticable effect.

I was roasting some Ethiopian Yigacheffe.

I dumped them in at around 240, the temperature dropped, there was a turnaround, but then temperature started rising rapidly, even though i had smoke damper out around 6cm. Temperature rose quickly to 240 by around 9mins. I could hear first crack. I dumped the beans about 30secs after first crack, at about 10:30mins. I was trying to slow the roast down to 13mins. But couldn't. Beans are fairly dark, I was aiming for a lighter roast. When i dumped the beans there was some cracking, so I am thinking I they may have gone into second crack.

Any advice for slowing the roast down? I know your wattage is around 2400W, but I didn't think 300w would make such a difference in terms of where the smoke damper should go.

I think I probably just need to practice more and be aware there is a big delay between smoke damper action and effect.

Should I reduce the max air temperature to say 235?

In terms of my experience, i have been using the small Gene Cafe previously.

I am at work now so don't have the min by min profile,

Cheers,


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I would be grateful for some advice....I took the plunge and went for a Dalian roaster. It certainly looks the business....
> 
> I think I have a lot of learning to do....I started her up yesterday and even appeared to have messed up the warm up phase....
> 
> Firstly my roaster takes 2700w.
> 
> When doing the warm up I did pull out the smoke damper a little further compared to whats in your user guide to account for the increased power. But basically what happened at warm up is it overshot the 240 mark (air temperature) and kept on rising to past 255, E2 then was shown on the display. By this point i had the smoke damper fully out and after a couple of minutes the temperature started to fall. Before the temparature hit 240 I did have the smoke damper pretty much fully out. I didn't really find the point where the roaster recyled in temperature around 240. But it seemed only having the damper fully out would cause the temperature drop. I think what I realised was moving the damper does not have an immediate effect, the effect appears a couple of mins later? Not sure yet, but it appears that only having the damper at 6cm,7cm or 8cm out has a noticable effect.
> 
> I was roasting some Ethiopian Yigacheffe.
> 
> I dumped them in at around 240, the temperature dropped, there was a turnaround, but then temperature started rising rapidly, even though i had smoke damper out around 6cm. Temperature rose quickly to 240 by around 9mins. I could hear first crack. I dumped the beans about 30secs after first crack, at about 10:30mins. I was trying to slow the roast down to 13mins. But couldn't. Beans are fairly dark, I was aiming for a lighter roast. When i dumped the beans there was some cracking, so I am thinking I they may have gone into second crack.
> 
> Any advice for slowing the roast down? I know your wattage is around 2400W, but I didn't think 300w would make such a difference in terms of where the smoke damper should go.
> 
> I think I probably just need to practice more and be aware there is a big delay between smoke damper action and effect.
> 
> Should I reduce the max air temperature to say 235?
> 
> In terms of my experience, i have been using the small Gene Cafe previously.
> 
> I am at work now so don't have the min by min profile,
> 
> Cheers,


300W is a big power difference, so it goes a lot faster. When I wrote the quick start temps were around 6C, it's now warmer and where you roast might be warmer still. So to what happened and what you can do:

1. E2 just means you exceeded the max limit I personally put in/ specified are set to, the air temp controller controllers You will find you can't set higher than 255 on the air temp controller, because I felt it wasn't a good idea to go much hotter and if it passes it by 1C, you immediately get the E2 message, which simply tells you you exceeded the max limit I put in to preserve your investment, nothing to worry about. You can even change that max limit, if you know how to get into the set-up, but I wouldn't advise it. As soon as the temperature goes to 255 or below, it will revert back to normal display.

As above The Roast temp controller has a max limit of 220C (that you can set it to) and again if the bean mass goes above that temperature, then you will get an E2 error

2. You can reduce the* air temp controller,* which will begin to affect the ramp rate, as it always lags the roast temp controller, you can get an idea of what might be a good value, by watching/logging your next roast and noting what temps it reaches at about 60-80% thru the roast when it's running fast and reduce it to a little below that as a starter for 10.

3. You might find a judicious tweak downwards of the roast temp may help stretch the roast just before and thru 1st. 195 is an arbitary value I wasked to be set, you might p[refer 194 or 193 etc.., and this might change for certain coffees.

4. You can keep pulling air to keep things cool (although tweaking thermometry might be better), it also might depend on the coffee.

5. Think of the airflow as having multiple ranges. Cooling damper full open, smoke damper is in "low range" if you like like on a 4 x 4. But you have many different "gears" you can use. e.g.

cooling damper 75% open (whatever number you think that is on your roaster and mark it with a bit of red tape), gives you more air thru the drum on any setting of the smoke damper.

cooling damper 50% open (whatever number you think that is on your roaster and mark it with a bit of red tape), gives you more air thru the drum on any setting of the smoke damper.

cooling damper 25% open (whatever number you think that is on your roaster and mark it with a bit of red tape), gives you more air thru the drum on any setting of the smoke damper.

cooling damper closed, gives you more air thru the drum on any setting of the smoke damper.

I think you get the idea.

The reason for having the cooling damper open or only closed when you want to max air thru the drum is simply that the whole chaff collection system works better and with the high airflow thru the fan, less crap builds up. Using it this way make the air system very very flexible.

Now although you can do all that with the dampers and dump huge amounts of heat very rapidly, that's not the best way, the best way is to simply forward think the roast and as you have realised, always remember it takes a while to respond. There is a lot of thermal mass there and correct thermometry might well be a better alternative. It's not a beginners roaster, but when you get it right (which won't take long), the results are well worth the journey.

Although a little way off, I do have all the kit I need to do a power control mod on the roaster...."not warranty affecting", but at the moment have not felt the need. However, I will try it when I have more time and see if it adds another dimension of controllability, or is simply easier to profile with. it's an easy and very cheap mod to do.


----------



## titanium

Thanks Dave for your response,

Some things for me to try and practice now.


----------



## Rob1

If bean mass produces an error message above 220c I assume I'm mistaken in thinking second crack occurs at 234c (or there abouts).


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> If bean mass produces an error message above 220c I assume I'm mistaken in thinking second crack occurs at 234c (or there abouts).


On mine 1st begins at around 192-195, but that's for my roaster, each one could be slightly different. 195 on mine won't be the same as 195 on a probat or 195 on a loring etc.. The roaster has a 14mm front plate a probe depth of 50mm and it sits in the very top of the bean mass. All this affects how it reads, as temperatures rise, the front plate sinks heat away, at low temps it prevents the probe cooling as fast. If the probe is in too far, the tip will miss the bean mass, too short and the front plate has a massive influence. Roaster chamber design and roaster size determines how far in this tip can sit.

At 195 that probe will switch off my roaster, but the beans will happily reach second crack quite quickly enough....the probe may only show 200 and bean mass always seems to lag behind roast chamber temperature. Temperatures on all roasters are really only specific to that type of roaster. What's important is that things happen consistently, e.g. at 195C on mine the beans will be in 1st at 190C I know 1st is coming in about 1 minute, at 180 ish i'm 2m away and can alter my rate of rise, or start dumping heat to prepare for first if I want to stretch 1st or delay 1st etc..

Although my outer drum environment PT100 sensor could well be reading 230C as 2nd approaches....but it's not where the process should be controlled from...that honour lies with the PT100 sensor in the bean mass. The outer drum sensor can be used to moderate the roast ramp rate though.

I set up the controllers so the bean mass sensor/controller could not be set above 220C, because I simply didn't think anyone should be using temperatures anywhere near that....or ever seeing any much higher than 205C on that sensor

With 3 sensors in the roaster, it's ultimately up to the operator how they want to interpret them and use them...I suppose I should have mentioned above that there is also the big red heater off switch, which people are allowed to use, if things start ramping too fast, or even getting out of hand.


----------



## Rob1

Ah ok. So the drum environment temp tells you how much energy is there and your bean mass probe doesn't necessarily tell you the bean mass temp, but it allows you to correlate different temp readings with different roast stages and these temps and stages will remain consistent...would those readings change a lot if you switch beans to a different size or density?


----------



## DavecUK

Rob1 said:


> Ah ok. So the drum environment temp tells you how much energy is there and your bean mass probe doesn't necessarily tell you the bean mass temp, but it allows you to correlate different temp readings with different roast stages and these temps and stages will remain consistent...would those readings change a lot if you switch beans to a different size or density?


No the readings don't change, but of course different beans react differently and will roast faster/slower, require a different profile. Some might even reach first crack at slightly different temperatures, but a lot of this difference can be due to thermal lag as the profile is often different. In general though the "markers" are the same.


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> Thanks Dave for your response,
> 
> Some things for me to try and practice now.


2 things you never mentioned?

Did you use the power meter I recommend and what was the mains voltage with no load?

The voltage and any voltage drop, will affect the power drawn. The example logs were at a no load voltage of 235V and a power draw of around 2400W, they would be a lot slower for the same settings.


----------



## titanium

DavecUK said:


> 2 things you never mentioned?
> 
> Did you use the power meter I recommend and what was the mains voltage with no load?
> 
> The voltage and any voltage drop, will affect the power drawn. The example logs were at a no load voltage of 235V and a power draw of around 2400W, they would be a lot slower for the same settings.


I have a power meter from maplin (not sure if its the same one you recommended - at work now so don't know exact model). I didn't take the mains voltage. I will check the next time. I did check the power drawn a few times and it was pretty consistent at around 2690's.

So far I have been improving with each roast. I insert the cooling air lever in around 3 cm (as apposed to fully out). Then I control from SD. I also reduced max air cooling temp to 235.

What I do notice when warming up for example it will overshoot the max temp (235) by about 10 degrees, Then start to come down, then undershoot for around 10 degrees to 225. I guess this is normal due to latent heat in block (or whatever its called).

I am also dumping pretty much straight after first crack. My initial roasts were very ashy, possibly also because of the speed they were roasted and I may have left them too long.


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> I have a power meter from maplin (not sure if its the same one you recommended - at work now so don't know exact model). I didn't take the mains voltage. I will check the next time. I did check the power drawn a few times and it was pretty consistent at around 2690's.
> 
> So far I have been improving with each roast. I insert the cooling air lever in around 3 cm (as opposed to fully out). Then I control from SD. I also reduced max air cooling temp to 235.
> 
> What I do notice when warming up for example it will overshoot the max temp (235) by about 10 degrees, Then start to come down, then undershoot for around 10 degrees to 225. I guess this is normal due to latent heat in block (or whatever its called).
> 
> I am also dumping pretty much straight after first crack. My initial roasts were very ashy, possibly also because of the speed they were roasted and I may have left them too long.


Yeah the overshoot will happen because as you rightly say a lot of latent heat in those elements when they switch off, you will notice the bean mass temp on the other controller doesn't do the same, with beans of course....it will only overshoot a tad on 1st as a result of the exothermic type reaction. Yours is certainly a little more powerful than mine I think, so you may well need to use a bit more air. It's OK to move that cooling damper in a bit more if you still need to slow it down, but if you're getting roasts in the 12-15m range you will be OK depending on the coffee e.g. Harrar needs a longer roast to bring out the red berries and blueberry pie.

Forward think 1st crack a bit more...don't fly into it with so much power, pull a little more air as first approaches and don't be afraid to pull even more air after 20-30s of 1st.

I will be coming up with a power control mod soon, which is simple to do (approx 20 minutes) and will hopefully cost less than £8...


----------



## DavecUK

I just went out and did the power control mod, I'll stick an article on the Wiki tonight and you can order the stuff and do it if you want. Seems to be working OK. Took me about 20m to do, but I had to do photos and some Video.


----------



## DavecUK

How I did my power control mod, for anyone who is interested.

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/amazon-dalian-roaster-power-control-mod


----------



## Paolo5

DavecUK said:


> How I did my power control mod, for anyone who is interested.
> 
> http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/amazon-dalian-roaster-power-control-mod


Hi Dave,

After you have done a few roasts using the power control modification, can you please tell me in practice the difference that the power control has made in roasting with the Dalian?


----------



## froggystyle

Can you use that SCR box on the CBR1200 ?


----------



## DavecUK

froggystyle said:


> Can you use that SCR box on the CBR1200 ?


I reckon you could yes....I used a more expensive box and changed the POT for a 100 kohm pot on my CBR1200, to give fine control from 2Kw to 3Kw, because that's all the range you need. I think this one will work, but it's a lot coarser than the way I did my CBR with the Kemo module and a changed out potentiometer (the kemo model came with a coarser pot, from 0 -3Kw). I have not opened this cheapie module up to see if a finer pot can be easily fitted.

The Kemo mod I did on the CBR1200 has been running for well over 18 months though!



Paolo5 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> After you have done a few roasts using the power control modification, can you please tell me in practice the difference that the power control has made in roasting with the Dalian?


It will be more than a few roasts before I know whether it's worthwhile. It will be 6 months and 12 months as I need to go through a winter cycle as well, because there are losses in the SCR controller, it's not a problem when my mains voltage is up in the 240s...in winter it's all too often down at 230V! and then every watt counts. It's easy to loose heat in a roaster, but not so easy to add it.

I did put the clarification below in my mod document:

At this point, I have no idea if this will work OK long term, or whether the SCR module will fail. I don't even know if it will be of any use, I like tinkering and as stated earlier, I did this to all my other electric roasters.The Amazon roasts very well already, so I don't think it will improve on roast quality and I'm only guessing as to the benefits. Now, it just gives me another control in the armoury and something else to play with when crafting the roast. I'll report back at intervals during the next 12 months. Modifying your own roaster is easy, but it may also be pointless, so please don't take this as something you need to do&#8230;remember I have not even tried roasting with this mod yet!

If people want to try it they can, it might even be that the potentiometer is too coarse to give a decent level of fine control and I end up putting the roaster back to stock. I'll certainly keep people up to date. I would certainly advise anyone to learn to use the roaster properly for 6 months before even considering modifying it and I may well add that to my mod document as well.


----------



## johnealey

Hi Dave

Possibly a daft question but having done the power control mod on the smaller gene last year using the same controller that you then used on the big gene could you utilise this / that one given the reliabilty is known on that type ( and for me fitted in an external aluminium project box acting as a heatsink)?

Not about dropping £6 for another controller was soley thinking of reliabilty of the controller, if this is in fact a factor.

If not suitable then will leave on the little gene or look to sell on to a big gene owner if they still need one once my amazon arrives in a month or so

John


----------



## DavecUK

johnealey said:


> Hi Dave
> 
> Possibly a daft question but having done the power control mod on the smaller gene last year using the same controller that you then used on the big gene could you utilise this / that one given the reliability is known on that type ( and for me fitted in an external aluminium project box acting as a heatsink)?
> 
> Not about dropping £6 for another controller was soley thinking of reliabilty of the controller, if this is in fact a factor.
> 
> If not suitable then will leave on the little gene or look to sell on to a big gene owner if they still need one once my amazon arrives in a month or so
> 
> John


You could leave it on the little Gene. Although the scr controller I have put on is small, it has a decently large heatsink area, many times that of a project box of the same size. It's also rated for 23A (which I don't believe), so should handle the 10-11.5 amps of the Amazon easy enough. This does mean that the kemo controller you have will be totally suitable, but buy a proper heatsink for it. The one below is what I purchased and has a very large area, mine came nice and flat too. You would also want to change to a 100K pot to give finer control (I think it a 100K I used.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/60x150x25mm-High-Quality-Aluminum-Heat-Sink-for-LED-and-Power-IC-Transistor-YQ-/261428724890?hash=item3cde5dc49a

It may also be that I find the mod non useful and simply stick to the airflow controls and temperature controllers to switch it all for me. I have yet to experiment more fully with reducing the roast temp controller settings a bit more....and perhaps the air temp ones as well. it all gets a bit expensive when you're roasting a Kilo at a time.

The other reason I may not bother too much with using the controller....is; the roasts taste fantastic from the roaster and I need to write the full user guide, not just the quick-start. The full user guide of course has to be based on no modifications, which means it might be fitted but I won't really be using it for a while (unless I can't help myself and just want to experiment with the odd roast). Think of the power controller as a *very advanced* roasting technique, one I don't expect many owners to do for a while. Or at least not until they have mastered the roaster as it is.

So for now, allow someone else the benefit of you're power controlled Gene and perhaps buy the cheaper SCR controller for the gene at the same time as you order the heatsink. Certainly if the cheap controller I bought goes pop, I have a second Kemo power controller and spare heatsink that I will use instead, I would just need to buy a 100K pot.

The roaster is already significantly changed from how it was when I received the standard configuration last September. A lot has happened in that 7 months of testing and interestingly the Chinese seem to be making all my changes their new standard configuration...I think because it worked so much better when they tried it themselves. I guess you can't unthink something once you have seen it. I have had the new roaster only 3 weeks or so and am still learning how to handle her with all the changes, let alone the power control mod.


----------



## titanium

HI,

Currently my roasts from the Dalian are tasting pretty burnt / ashy. I think this is because I am going into first crack too quickly, and post first crack is too quick. So I need to slow things down to lengthen first crack and after. I've lowered the max air temp down to 235. The only other option I have is to increase air flow before first crack is entered.

Can I just check the max air flow I can achieve to slow down roast heating would be cooling air flow lever all the way in and smoke damper lever all the way out - is this correct?

I will experiment with moving the CA lever in further, to slow down FC. I could also reduce max air temp more?

Dave, you mentioned earlier its better to use temperature to control the heating, instead of airflow. Is there any effect on the beans with using airflow? Apart from setting the max temperature, i can't really use temperature control, its either on or off.

Also I presume its not possible to load the machine with less beans (500g?) and have it perform the same as with 1kg? Just trying to save on costs, while I am figuring this out.

My voltage when I checked was around 245v.

Thanks,


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> Currently my roasts from the Dalian are tasting pretty burnt / ashy. I think this is because I am going into first crack too quickly, and post first crack is too quick. So I need to slow things down to lengthen first crack and after. I've lowered the max air temp down to 235. The only other option I have is to increase air flow before first crack is entered.


Without a detailed roast log I don't know for sure..., could be lots of things?



> Can I just check the max air flow I can achieve to slow down roast heating would be cooling air flow lever all the way in and smoke damper lever all the way out - is this correct?


Yes, but it will dump so much heat, I'd be surprised if it could roast in any decent time.



> I will experiment with moving the CA lever in further, to slow down FC. I could also reduce max air temp more?


You could move the cooling air in 50% or even 75%, this would slow down the ramp rate. You will definitely be able to get more than enough airflow to slow the roasting down. With max air temp, this will also work, but there comes a point where max roast temp in the drum starts to be affected, although you would have to go very low for this to happen.

You could also lower the roasting temp from 195, try 190 and see what happens......you can go as low as the earliest point 1st is detected for a bean...BUT, remember a "pushed" 1st from too large a rate of rise may give you a temperature higher than would actually be needed to get 1st if more time was taken (as the internal bean temp will lag). The lower roasting temp will do a fair bit to extend 1st crack and the time between 1st and 2nd.



> Dave, you mentioned earlier its better to use temperature to control the heating, instead of airflow. Is there any effect on the beans with using airflow? Apart from setting the max temperature, i can't really use temperature control, its either on or off.


It's more precise and repeatable to use temperature, airflow is just harder work....it also wastes energy...but no, no adverse affect on the beans (consider a CBR1200 has massive airflow, compared to this roaster). Also with the cooling air damper all the way out, drum airflow is pretty low, even with fairly high air settings. You also need to think about the physics of how the dampers are working. At a certain point opening the cooling damper will not significantly increase airflow through that damper...this all depends on the power of the fan. So 50% closed may not have had the effect of a 50% reduction of air through that damper and hence a similar increase in air through the smoke damper. However you may find a much bigger difference between 50 and 25%? It's sort of like a water tap, theres a full flow of water, but opening it further doesn't always get more flow, it depends on the water pressure available.

As for not being able to use temp control see my comments on the earlier point. Roasters for decades have used simple on/off temp control?



> Also I presume its not possible to load the machine with less beans (500g?) and have it perform the same as with 1kg? Just trying to save on costs, while I am figuring this out.


Loading the machine with less than 1kg will make it roast differently (this is a 50% charge, quite a significant reduction)....it's like putting 12.5 kg in a 25kg gas probat roaster, I've tried it and it's so tricky, I wouldn't try it again... So you can use 500g, but how you roast, times temps may be completely different to 1kg. You have to also hope that the thermometry is the same, because with less beans, the probe may be less surrounded by beans during the roasting process....adding more variables. This is all fine if you always intend to roast 500g.



> My voltage when I checked was around 245v.


That's very good mains voltage, mine is usually around 239 at best when I roast and often down at 236 (even 230 in middle of winter). In a sense you're lucky, if the area where the roaster is is really cold (voltage is always lower in winter), roasting is no problem....in summer you can dump as much heat as you need.

Why not simply try (*this advice all in the absence of any roasting log.....so it could be garbage*):

190 on the roasting temp

235 on the air temp

Cooling damper all the way in

Use smoke damper only to control roast, start with 1cm for 3 minutes, then open up to 2 or 3cm for 6-7m (look for a rate of rise that gets you to 190 in about 10 minutes or so.

See how that works as a starting point for reference, then adjust things from there.

Keep detailed roasting logs, buy 40kg of Brazilian Santos beans, or get a complete sack wholesale...think of the expense as the cost of your roasting training. I don't know how many Kg it will take you to "get it", for some people they get along faster than others. I've a lot of experience, so it took me a few Kg with the test roaster to "get it", 10kg to perfect it, then 20kg to work out the revisions I wanted and to push the envelope. Once the revised roaster came. It took me about 8kg to get it, which included coming out with a revised roasting method using the cooling damper as an airflow moderator. I've roasted a lot more since, but the basic ideas have not changed. In total for the entire roaster project, I've probably roasted 60+kg

"Getting it", means understanding the roaster and having the feel for it to adjust to changing conditions e.g. warmer days. seeing when it's going to fast/slow and making the adjustments as you go, rather than realising you should have made adjustments when it's too late.

You have air (2 dampers), temperature (2 controllers)...only 4 variables to understand and control, but this creates a lot of complexity and each one affects the others! I think I've done as much as I can to help you remotely on the forum TBH.

P.S. makes you wonder about the world roasting championships and their 7-9 minute roasts doesn't it


----------



## titanium

Thanks Dave, very helpful.


----------



## titanium

Dave, Thanks again for your detailed response.

I'll try what you suggest for the temps and dampers as a starting point and let you know how I get on. I've probably used about 8 kilos so far.

Im determined to 'get it' with this roaster, but will need to build up my own experience with it. Coming from the small gene cafe its a bit of a jump, but i dont mind learning!


----------



## PaulL

I have 8 roasts now in my first month with the (test) Dahlian and spoken to Dave along the way after his many weeks with it. Despite the voltage drop I get in my workshop resulting in 2200w typically, the power of the roaster is enormous with 1st crack arriving in 9 to 10 mins and then trying (struggling) to reduce the temp so the roast doesn't darken too much too quickly.

Last night was my first roast following the power control mod per Dave's link enabling me to roast at 2000w until 1st crack and then reduce to 1800w to the end of the roast. 1st arrived at 11:20 and 159c on the k-type thermocouple Dave fitted and I ended the roast at 14:20 and 165c with medium/dark colour. Smoke damper out to no.2 and cooling air damper out fully for the entire roast.

I know the test roaster is not necessarily relevant to the new BB production versions but this is the sort of control I was looking for and also the headroom for winter or low voltage. I now have the basis to get to know the roaster with adjustments, in each season, with one variable at a time, the effect of the dampers and also with control of heat input that isn't as powerful as the max 2500w without element switching.

The mod was as easy as Dave suggests as even I managed it! I picked up 0.5m of high temp wire from eBay cheaply and crimped it, the dial on the power controller seems sensitive enough for the adjustments.


----------



## DavecUK

PaulL said:


> I have 8 roasts now in my first month with the (test) Dahlian and spoken to Dave along the way after his many weeks with it. Despite the voltage drop I get in my workshop resulting in 2200w typically, the power of the roaster is enormous with 1st crack arriving in 9 to 10 mins and then trying (struggling) to reduce the temp so the roast doesn't darken too much too quickly.
> 
> Last night was my first roast following the power control mod per Dave's link enabling me to roast at 2000w until 1st crack and then reduce to 1800w to the end of the roast. 1st arrived at 11:20 and 159c on the k-type thermocouple Dave fitted and I ended the roast at 14:20 and 165c with medium/dark colour. Smoke damper out to no.2 and cooling air damper out fully for the entire roast.


I'd better say this again..for those of you who have the revised roaster. Pauls roaster does not have the same revisions to thermometry of the current roasters. *Also don't misread his struggling to reduce the temp, as really struggling. If he simply pushed the cooling air damper in, he would have no struggle at all to reduce the temp with the smoke damper.. *

At this point, I have no idea if this will work OK long term, or whether the SCR module will fail. I don't even know if it will be of any use, I like tinkering and as stated earlier, I did this to all my other electric roasters.The Amazon roasts very well already, so I don't think it will improve on roast quality and I'm only guessing as to the benefits. Now, it just gives me another control in the armoury and something else to play with when crafting the roast. I'll report back at intervals during the next 12 months. Modifying your own roaster is easy, but it may also be pointless, so please don't take this as something you need to do&#8230;remember I have not even tried roasting with this mod yet!

If people want to try it they can, it might even be that the potentiometer is too coarse to give a decent level of fine control and I end up putting the roaster back to stock. I'll certainly keep people up to date. *I would certainly advise anyone to learn to use the roaster properly for 6 months before even considering modifying it and I may well add that to my mod document as well.*



*
*It's quite possible to control the roast by airflow as I said in my previous post, simply move the cooling airflow rod in as far as you need (50%, 25% etc.....all the way if you want) and you will find there is plenty of control (more than you need) with the smoke damper. Pauls roaster is a little different and reacts differently. When I was testing in it, I thought a power control mod would be useful for the test roaster. *On the revised roaster,* I didn't bother to do the mod as soon as it arrived, simply because I am not sure it will benefit from it. I'm not currently having any trouble controlling my roasts without it and will probably refrain from using it as the weather warms up, because I also want to understand how this roaster reacts in summer with the higher temps and higher voltages. I will want to make temp and airflow adjustments and log them before I introduce any variables.


----------



## titanium

Below are a couple of profiles. The first one is with CA fully closed. And as you see the roaster was taking a long time to warm up. I finally had to push cooling air damper in to get the heat to rise. I was relieved with this. At least I had gone to the other end of the scale and was slowing the roaster down too much. Beans were Colombian I think. They did not come out right, I think left them in too long after first crack. Need to get a decent lamp near the tryer...

Also left figure in pics is roasting temp, right figure is air temp.









Second profile was a better roast. Beans were Brazil Santos. Once first crack started I basically was using the tryer continously, so the bean dumping time may not be that accurate. Beans were good, I even ground some and took them to work. Im finding the ambient temperature is making a big difference on the heat up time. With an ambient temperature of around 20, I'll need to slow down roast further. Also on both these profiles, these were the first roast. They'll probably be more trial and error to get post first roast OK.


----------



## Paolo5

Hi Titanium,

It looks like you are making progress in the process of 'learning the Darian'....well done!


----------



## johnealey

Hi Titanium

Please take my comment below as having not had experience yet of this roaster (on order for delivery end Apr / may)

Assuming you still roasting in 1kg batches and noting @DavecUK comment during the testing phase would loading 1.2kg in help to slow down rate of rise of temp at least till 1st crack?

Happy to be shot down, having re read the whole thread may have missed something but also thinking through own strategy etc (thanks for all the detailed info, really helpful as are Dave's responses)

John


----------



## titanium

johnealey said:


> Hi Titanium
> 
> Please take my comment below as having not had experience yet of this roaster (on order for delivery end Apr / may)
> 
> Assuming you still roasting in 1kg batches and noting @DavecUK comment during the testing phase would loading 1.2kg in help to slow down rate of rise of temp at least till 1st crack?
> 
> Happy to be shot down, having re read the whole thread may have missed something but also thinking through own strategy etc (thanks for all the detailed info, really helpful as are Dave's responses)
> 
> John


HI, not sure actually. Maybe @DavecUK can better answer. Makes sense that it would though. But presumably your not loading in 1.2kg just to slow down rate rise. As Dave mentions temperature and dampers would do that. What hit me was the increased number of variables I need to think about that could affect the roast as compared to the GeneCafe (unmodified).


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> HI, not sure actually. Maybe @DavecUK can better answer. Makes sense that it would though. But presumably your not loading in 1.2kg just to slow down rate rise. As Dave mentions temperature and dampers would do that. What hit me was the increased number of variables I need to think about that could affect the roast as compared to the GeneCafe (unmodified).


When i roasted 1.2Kg it was as fast as 1kg, the limit on charge weight it probably drum size....I felt larger than 1.2 is probably not a good idea. The temperature controllers and dampers are the way. Sure there are a lot more variables than on a Gene 101, but then this is a proper roaster. As you get a feel for it, you will soon know a rate of rise during a roast, is too fast and pull a bit more air (on the fly) almost without thinking about it. Or when roasting a Harrar to get that blueberry pie crumble, you know perhaps a few C less on the roast temp and a tad more air to lengthen the whole roast, being ready to pull a bit more depending on how first sounds....stretching to 14+ minutes to ensure you don't loose the blueberry.

All this is just experience...of the roaster and of the coffee...as you gain this experience, the very crude large adjustments made when it's obviously gone wrong can be avoided, in favour of smaller well judged (anticipatory) adjustments...just before problems start to happen.

Roasting is easy, roasting well isn't and it takes some learning, a roaster like the Dalian has a much steeper learning curve than the CBR1200.


----------



## PaulL

As usual, Dave's guidance gave me a lot to think about. For those of us who have no experience of a professional roaster with dampers and a poor understanding of the physics it's a new worldto get to grips with. In my case i have 10 years experience of roasting on iRoast, Hottop, GeneCafe and Quest M3 but these home roasters only partly prepare you.

For my last roast i deliberately concentrated on the dampers and Dave is right when he says my struggle is not the Dahlian struggling but simply user inexperience. It's clear to me from my first few roasts that I can get a ridiculous 8 min first crack by keeping the heat in the drum and the cooling air damper fully open or the complete opposite of insufficient heat across 20 min by opening the smoke damper fully and closing the cooling air damper fully. An amazing amount of control with just these two variables.

It's also clear to me that any roast I have done (and none of them at either of these extremes) tastes better than anything I have roasted before, as it should. Roast logs are so important so we can get past the initial learning curve, understand the basic settings that work for us in our ambient environment and our voltages so we have a foundation, I think I'm just about there as I come up to 10 roasts, mostly as Dave has given us the basics. Looking forward to then applying that to the changes of each season and then different approaches to varietals, clearly a different approach needed for a SHB vs African vs Monsoon Malabar etc.!


----------



## DavecUK

@titanium

If you ever had any concerns that your roasts were going too fast, look at these. One Russian guy is down to 5m 31s 1st crack, roaster charged at 260C exhaust and 200C bean temp (which won't be accurate, cos no beans in roaster)....f&%k me! This indeed is the "Santa Pod" of coffee roasting.









https://www.cropster.com/en/news/news-detail/news/world-coffee-roasting-championships-wcrc-2016/


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## titanium

Hmm, I think I have a lot more to learn. This got me looking at the rules & regulations for the WCRC. I didn't realise you can get coffee moisture and density measurement devices.


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## DavecUK

titanium said:


> Hmm, I think I have a lot more to learn. This got me looking at the rules & regulations for the WCRC. I didn't realise you can get coffee moisture and density measurement devices.


Well learn to definitely not roast that fast, in fact not as fast as most of the competitors!


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## titanium

Just wondering how the competitors can get a properly developed (or roasted) bean in that time. Presumably its possible...

Is that championship the formula 1 of coffee roasting? They can go real quick and get it right, whereas if I go that quick I'd crash?


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> Just wondering how the competitors can get a properly developed (or roasted) bean in that time. Presumably its possible...
> 
> Is that championship the formula 1 of coffee roasting? They can go real quick and get it right, whereas if I go that quick I'd crash?


It's not possible, but a lot of vested interests in that competition from software and roaster manufacturers alike, it's an industry led thing.... Of course it's difficult to believe that it can be wrong, because of something called "the spiral of silence" and something similar to what psychologists call "pluralistic ignorance". I wouldn't worry too much about what happens in that competition.


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## titanium

I was roasting some Yirgacheffe at the weekend. Profile is below. SD was closed to start with, for the first 9 mins. After around 4 mins I noticed smoke coming out of the vents at the back of the roaster. This is coming from the beans which appear very smokey. There was quite a bit of smoke escaping until I opened SD at 9 mins. My question is...is this OK, or do I have a leaky seal somewhere. I assume what I should do next time is just open SD slightly to let the smoke out. I've only seen this on the Yirgacheffe beans.

Not tried the beans yet...


----------



## DavecUK

titanium said:


> I was roasting some Yirgacheffe at the weekend. Profile is below. SD was closed to start with, for the first 9 mins. After around 4 mins I noticed smoke coming out of the vents at the back of the roaster. This is coming from the beans which appear very smokey. There was quite a bit of smoke escaping until I opened SD at 9 mins. My question is...is this OK, or do I have a leaky seal somewhere. I assume what I should do next time is just open SD slightly to let the smoke out. I've only seen this on the Yirgacheffe beans.
> 
> Not tried the beans yet...


Just to be clear here, your cooling damper was partly closed and the smoke damper completely closed for 9 minutes!!!!!

Ill just explain a little:


The roaster has a drum an outer chamber with heating elements and a gold coloured cover containing all of this

None of these chambers has gas tight seals of any kind (they sort of can't if you really think about it.

It's a pulled air roaster (or in scientific terms the fan creates a low pressure zone in the roaster and outside air is pushed in through any gaps)

If you don't open the smoke damper and get some airflow through the drum, the only place the smoke can go is through the gaps.

Some gaps are at the back of the gold cowling that forms a pretty good, but not gas tight seal with the outer drum chamber.

at 3-4m steam will come out at 9 minutes smoke will surely come out and you gradually f%^k up your roast, it probably isn't doing the roaster much good either.


The smoke damper should always be opened between 3-4m into the roast (always, means always)!

Hopefully that's clear and how much you open it at 3-4 minutes is up to you depending on the coffee the voltage and the ambient temperature.

The variables are, how much air you pull through the drum and this depends on the ambient temperature, voltage (power draw of the elements). Higher = more, Lower = less

The airflow is controlled by the 2 dampers as below:


Cooling air fully open = Smoke damper pulls less air at all settings (also pulls no air when closed, even if manufacturing variance means there are small gaps)

As cooling air is progressively closed = Smoke damper pulls more air at all settings (also may pull air when closed, due to manufacturing variance leaving small gaps)


I looked at your log and I cannot believe an ambient temperature of 30C, is this really right? I understand you've not tried the beans...when you do they are probably going to taste like crap. I think the danger of advice on a forum is, you are doing stuff that I don't realise your doing, some is written down some isn't and then your making changes based on this. Eventually you end up in a messy place, because you don't understand what is affecting what correctly and have settings that perhaps are not correct. For my part, I am left making assumptions, which may or may not be correct and thus any advice has the same problems. For example, I am assuming this roast log was for 1kg, but am I right?

If you have always been opening the smoke damper much more than 3-4 minutes into the roast, then this would account for a lot of the problems you have been getting. If you then close the cooling damper more to slow the roast down when you eventually do open the damper, then that makes the cooling damper setting not really correct......and so you spiral down the rabbit hole or bad settings.

*If you think you may benefit from some training in coffee, roasting and on the roaster itself....I am happy to do this on a 1-2-1 paid basis at my place. Have a think about it, if you're interested, send me a pm.*


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## titanium

I should have explained. I did have the roaster on previously about an hour early. So this would explain the higher ambient temperature.

I have always had the cooling damper in a fixed position at 7cm when roasting - from the start, i.e. partly closed. I don't change this while roasting. Isn't this OK?

So at 4cm I need to have some airflow, so should open SD. Looks like I did have airflow, but it was being forced through the gaps.

Yes, it was for 1kg.

Thanks for your offer! I agree with you...re the training.


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## PaulL

I've put about 20 roasts through my Amazon (review) roaster now, I switched to 500g batches from about roast 15 onwards so I'm not going through so many greens whilst learning, just about there now. It's a super roaster and even the bad roasts are good and all are chaff free, I'm amazed.

@titanium how have you been getting on, did a session with DaveC help?

Mods - We're not seeing owners post about their roasting experiences on the latest roasters, perhaps they are commercial roasters or just not forum members. I wonder though if it's worth changing the thread title to Dalian Amazon roaster if DaveC doesn't object.


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## titanium

Hi @PaulL

Yeah, I had a session with DaveC, very useful. I've got a lot better understanding now of what the roaster is doing and how I can control the roaster with the levers and heat settings.

I'm also very happy with the roaster, its a solid piece of kit.

I've done a fair few roasts, and now have a fair bit of coffee to get through! I'm still putting in a kg at a time. I'm still learning though - i.e. when to drop the beans, lengthening first crack etc. But I am not producing anything undrinkable any more!

Am now figuring out how to go commercial with this, I'd be happy to have a Saturday job roasting with this machine.!


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## PaulL

Agreed, it takes a while to get to know when the internal temp is stable rather than relying on just the readings. My first 20 roasts have been a mix of getting to know drop temp both for initial roasts and then back to back without having too much heat and a quick roast or too little and a slow roast. Also we know that, unlike the smaller roasters, the size and mass are slower to react when we make adjustments. The smoke damper and cooling air rods have been entirely new tools to learn in roasting and Dave is a master with this. He has kindly and patiently explained it and i have spoken through different roast results with him but I don't mind making mistakes as we know we need to experience them first hand so they register properly, it's a good feeling to now have the basic balance I need between SD and CA and get to know drop temps and intervals better.

With 1kg batches I can't practise as often as I want unless I'm prepared to throw away beans, hence I switched to 500g. With any roaster i have used you feel different when you arrive at the point you can anticipate and adjust ahead (again Dave has a skill for this). So, same approach for me with the Amazon, when I feel I am at that point I will switch back to 1kg batches and adjust knowing the basic behaviour of the Amazon has sunk in.

The results seem so forgiving though whatever torture you inflict on the beans!


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## johnealey

Little update for those of us awaiting the 2nd batch to arrive in at Bella.

Just got off the phone with them 17:10 this afternoon having noticed the item has changed to in stock. They are expecting to get mails out to thoise waiting as soon as they in which should hopefully be either tomorrow or Friday, so time to dust off the remainder of the payment









Ooh, looking forward to this now... been a long wait since Feb 20th when put deposit down.

John


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## PIP

Just planning what the impending roaster is best sat upon. Thinking an old desk with steel frame. Has anyone got the actual footprint size, as not sure how wide with the fan/ cyclone fitted it is, I might need a rethink.


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## johnealey

@DavecUK might be able to help with sizes but suspect unless this is a really small desk should be ok.

Take it you got your email today to advise now at Bella, just working out with them when can go and collect as know they trying to stagger collections / deliveries to given them time to test ( did offer to collect tomorrow pm or Monday Pm, not that I'm eager or anything...







)

Also, can anyone recommend a datalogging multimeter or similar to take the thermocouple and then connect to laptop running either Artisan Roast or Roastlogger (cropster even for my expensive tastes is pie in the sky maybe). Just keen to take some of the pressure off writing things down and concentrate more on what is going on in the drum then analyze after (or during) for consistency / learning.

John


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## PIP

johnealey said:


> @DavecUK might be able to help with sizes but suspect unless this is a really small desk should be ok.
> 
> Take it you got your email today to advise now at Bella, just working out with them when can go and collect as know they trying to stagger collections / deliveries to given them time to test ( did offer to collect tomorrow pm or Monday Pm, not that I'm eager or anything...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )
> 
> Also, can anyone recommend a datalogging multimeter or similar to take the thermocouple and then connect to laptop running either Artisan Roast or Roastlogger (cropster even for my expensive tastes is pie in the sky maybe). Just keen to take some of the pressure off writing things down and concentrate more on what is going on in the drum then analyze after (or during) for consistency / learning.
> 
> John


Thanks. I won't be collecting mine for a few weeks as I'm out of the UK, gives me a few weekends to rearrange the garage and nurse my wallet. Good luck on your first roasts.


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## titanium

PIP said:


> Just planning what the impending roaster is best sat upon. Thinking an old desk with steel frame. Has anyone got the actual footprint size, as not sure how wide with the fan/ cyclone fitted it is, I might need a rethink.


Below is a picture of my setup, and where the chaff collector is.

Length of roaster with chaff collector is 1 metre, depth of chaff collector and base of roaster is 48 cm. The front of the roaster with the controls sticks out another 10cm. So combined depth is 58 cm. But it would go on a table of depth say 50cm with the controls sticking out, if you don't mind that.

For just the roaster dimensions are 68cm x 38 cm.

For all measurements give or take a couple of cms.


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## PaulL

Picture of my Dalian to help as well

Sealey bench to take the weight and for storage, middle shelf version for cross-strength, topshelf inverted, about £80.

sheet of Finnish Birch ply cut to 1m x 0.7m ie. deliberately oversized to allow some workspace for roasting log, drink etc.

By the way, when I finish a roast and its cooling I place scales and container directly underneath the release gate so the net weight is known without any further messing around and the roast can be bagged.


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## PIP

Thanks both, appreciated. Liking the scales/container idea.


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## DavecUK

johnealey said:


> @DavecUK might be able to help with sizes but suspect unless this is a really small desk should be ok.
> 
> Take it you got your email today to advise now at Bella, just working out with them when can go and collect as know they trying to stagger collections / deliveries to given them time to test ( did offer to collect tomorrow pm or Monday Pm, not that I'm eager or anything...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> )


Have you collected it yet?


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## johnealey

Hi @DavecUK

literally got it home at 6:30 this evening and then had to await help from my brother to lift it out the back of the car in its rather substantial crate, so only just got it inside in the last half hour. Will be uncrating tomorrow now and putting into its new (painfully) purpose built "roasting" place and was just about to tuck into your very comprehensive (42 pages) user guide that Rodney advised had only just come today from yourself and I was the first to receive.

I was running an hour late but they (Marcel, Rodney, Marko and even Jordan later) still managed to take time to go through some basics, hand over docs etc despite my lateness ( I did call to apologise) and Marko, Jordan and Myself to put it in the back of a Touran (just fits in the crate, anything smaller car wise, watch the height or uncrate if collecting).

Really impressed as always with the attention to detail during the handover, as I am with your documentation and additionally bought best part of a sack of 2 greens to get stuck into for consistency of results whilst getting up to speed









Nice and shiny in the box, looking forward to getting stuck in ( @froggystyle, give me a couple of days to get set up then welcome to visit)

Also got home to find a Pennine order of Scott Rao's roasters companion and an Amazon order of James Hoffmans world Atlas of coffee arrived so definately a coffee day in the Ealey household









John


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## MrShades

Hmmmm... I can feel a visit to my parents in Hampton coming on ;-)


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## johnealey

@MrShades Suspect may be a few visitors, more than welcome









John


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## DavecUK

@johnealey...done any roasts on it yet?


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## johnealey

@DavecUK yes just done my first two roasts this evening even finding a use for some indian cherry robusta bought last year as my first "throwaway roast to get rid of all the manufacturing gunk" (my word does that smoke a bit)

I could not locate my power plug for the life of me so no idea what it is drawing and was on the end of a very beefy fully unwound extension lead ( I know, but am waiting for log cabiny thing to be properly wired, distribution board rcb's / rcd's etc )

Box and plate on roaster marked up 220v so hoping this is not a max as my voltage as you may recall is always hovering around the 245-250 mark. Took a while to get the air temp up especially after realised had drum door open...doh, Dr.Dumbass...another 15 minutes later first roast rubberbusta in and followed advice re CA fully out SD closed then open at 4 etc putting in at 190 (220) and had roast set at 195 and air at 240.

1st crack occurred @8m23 and had to open the Smoke damper at 3m as smoke coming out vents at rear but asthis was a throw away not too concerned all out at 10m 40 being @197(201) and absolutely tons of smoke ( i kid you not I lost the yard, Robusta never again)

2nd roast was the BB Nicaraguan microlot el buey honey and left settings the same.

CA fully open, SD closed ext temp 17c

0m 192 (228)

1m 153 (188)

2m 150 (169)

3m 154 (161)

4m 158 (158) SD out to 1cm ( i realised post roast was looking at your first roast guide not the second...)

5m 165 (165) SD out to 2cm @5m30 as shot up to170 (171)

6m 172 (174)

7m 179 (186)

8m 186 (194) 8m15s FC sustained popping pulled SD to 4cm

9m 195 (209) starting to run away pushed CA into 6 from full open to give SD a bit more air

10m30s dropped as starting to hear 2nd crack and definately in the cooling tray

1000g in 837.9g out for a 16.2% loss

Clearly got away a bit so think will need more SD with CA fully open and see how that behaves next time round. Colour wise pretty good and whilst might get a bit of oil only the odd divoted bean, just a bit quicker than expected! cut a few beans open and appear to be evenly developed so will give it a few days and see how they taste.

Picture below from a camera phone under halogen light whilst being cooled:









Any feedback gratefully received

John


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## DavecUK

Nice looking roast John, perhaps try taking that bean a little bit lighter, but it's difficult to tell from a photo. Don't worry about 220V it's their standard rating plate, machine is good from 200 to 240V, I made sure of that. The Divots (and how to avoid them) are explained in my user guide.

Just from the roast log I'd recommend a few things for the El buey and other roasts....(obviously times might be up to 1m longer for 1st roast of day)


Set Roaster temp (RT) to 193

Smoke Damper (SD) open at 3m for all roasts on "your" machine at this time of year, the steam (it's not smoke) out of the right vents is the machine shouting at you to open the vent!

at 3 minutes try SD of 4cm and monitor for a *few minutes* to check rate of rise (mentally calculate and reduce/increase as necessary)

Aim for a 1st crack at about 10m, that will to happen at around 190C on "Roast Temp" controller

Once first starts properly, if sounding normal gradually increase damper another few cm or more (don't let RT drop!), ensure you dont allow the roast to coast above 200 (RT), open as much air as required to prevent that

Total roast time of say 13 to 13.5m would be good for that bean, but taken a little lighter (and giving more time for development and less heat)


If you find movement of the smoke damper over it's full range is not enough, change up a gear my moving the cooling damper in 50%. and see how you are, if the SD is too sensitive, then bring the cooling damper out a bit. Once you get the settings right for your roaster mark the cooling damper rod so you can easily move/use those same settings when roasting every time. The idea with the cooling damper is to find a set position to roast in that gives your SD a good range of operation (it can be slightly different for your roaster compared to mine.)..

Also be interested to know how the roast above tastes, this roaster can roast quite dark and not give those ashy roasty notes.

Dave

P.S. Very important to forward think the roasts as much as possible.


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## johnealey

Hi Dave (and all)

thanks for the above and glad my understanding from the guide and your previous posts ref the cooling air dampers affect on the Smoke damper was in the right area, was just a little overcautious in moving away from a fully open damper( and a little slow).

I guess thats part of the learning experience, if got it right first time, would have fallen backwards in suprise









Just really glad the 2nd "proper" roast in the roaster ended with something that wasn't a disaster (taste yet to be established).

It truly is a very different beast to the gene not just in terms of size, capacity looks etc but also execution and really looking forward to getting to grips with it.

Will report back on next roast, taste of first


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## DavecUK

johnealey said:


> It truly is a very different beast to the gene not just in terms of size, capacity looks etc but also execution and really looking forward to getting to grips with it.
> 
> Will report back on next roast, taste of first


Ah...tis truly a proper roaster and as you said it's only your 2nd roast so i suspect roasting Nirvana will come quickly..."the force is strong in this one"!


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## johnealey

To add to the above, maybe the previous use of power control on the small gene is making it easier to grasp what the smoke damper (and cooling damper) are doing, its just swapping a rotary pot controlling power for some damper rods controlling airflow. Might be a massive oversimplification on my part but makes some form of sense to me at the moment anyway









John


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## froggystyle

You know all this talk of log cabin is just a lie, unless backed up with photos??


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## johnealey

Well, taken a while as been a bit busy roasting but heres some pictures @froggystyle:









Roaster in situ although feet need lowering on cabinets as currently a smidgen on the tall side (1.1m instead of 0.9, a slight miscalculation on my part...)

and one of the 12x8 loggy cabiny summerhousey thing:









whilst the term log is a bit loosey goosey, being 19mm, goes together by interlocking at the corners thus very stable (came from here)

Roasted 13kgs now and starting to control it a bit better, the last 3 kilo run were more med to med dark than dark







Have got the cooling Air damper in at 2cm giving me more smoke damper and this seems to getting me to first crack around the 11min mark, this on Sunday when a bit cooler so can see me with the air damper fully in when gets warmer and am all the way out on the smoke damper at first crack.









John


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## DavecUK

More important, how are the roasts tasting now?


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## froggystyle

looking good!

Although as you say, needs lowering... i had the gene a bit high in my shed and it makes it hard work.


----------



## johnealey

Batches 1 to 9 were definatately starting off dark (read roasty) through to m/d to dark and benefitting from a longer rest period otherwise just harsh.

Just drinking last of batch 7 (m/d to dark) and in the mythos just picking up cocao but in the r120 same batch is giving smooooooth cocoa with a hint of caramel both as flatties. Suspect the last lot (batch 10-12) done this last sunday may start to reveal some of the beans natural profile as these i definately had more control over but won't know for sure until the weekend.

Not had a batch that was truly appalling yet and maybe in hindsight shoudl have started on the washed microlot La bastilla el Buey than the Honey microlot but hey ho.

John


----------



## DavecUK

Just something that occurred to me...as a result of the pounds weakness against the US Dollar after Brexit. I know for a fact that BB don't have many roasters in stock now..., if you were thinking of ordering one, it might be a very good idea to do it soon. When they order more, they have to pay in USD...need I say anything else.


----------



## PIP

First roast, nearly ran away with me, but not bad , well chuffed with the setup. One question, notice my drum stops if I select chaff removal, I thought this interlock had been changed?


----------



## DavecUK

PIP said:


> First roast, nearly ran away with me, but not bad , well chuffed with the setup. One question, notice my drum stops if I select chaff removal, I thought this interlock had been changed?


It has, the drum should not stop if you select chaff removal....in fact chaff removal is a new function I asked them to add. All that should happen is that the heating elements are switched off and the fan on the chaff collector stops....the drum should continue to rotate. If switching the switch to the chaff collector position is causing the drum to stop, presumably it's been incorrectly wired and it would logically follow that either the heating units are not being locked out, or the main fan is not being switched off. Either occurence would be easy to spot by simple observation of the heater switch (glowing or not)/fan unit.

Until you get it sorted, you will have to remove chaff at the end of the roast, or pull the fan lead out from the socket at the rear of the roaster and manually turn the heating elements off if you want to do it mid roast, or whilst the roaster is operating. Stopping the drum rotating to do it really isn't a good idea!

The wiring fix should be very simple to do and you need to seek advice from Bella Barista, when you do I advice removal of the front electrical panel and send them a photos like this one, without the hand of course. Try and take a few from different angles, so they can see all the wiring. From this, they will be able to identify the incorrect wiring. I must say i am surprised, because there is a check-list/check process they follow to ensure everything is working correctly?


----------



## PIP

It switches off pulley and heat, and cooling tray if on.


----------



## DavecUK

OK well see my post edit above


----------



## PIP

Thanks, appreciated. There was a checklist, although I did also have to set the temp controllers to the values in your guide.


----------



## DavecUK

In fact send me an e-mail and I well send you the full pre-delivery checks document for you to go through with your roaster in case anything else was missed. There are certain controller settings which really need to be as I specified, how to set these is not in the customer documentation and something you cannot see!


----------



## Paolo5

Can any of the Dalian users out there tell me how they manipulate the CA and SD controls to get a declining rate of rise of bean temperature as the roast progresses?

Has anyone installed and used the "power control mod"? How effective is it with the Dalian?

What rod settings provide quickest bean cooling?


----------



## DavecUK

Paolo5 said:


> Can any of the Dalian users out there tell me how they manipulate the CA and SD controls to get a declining rate of rise of bean temperature as the roast progresses?
> 
> Has anyone installed and used the "power control mod"? How effective is it with the Dalian?
> 
> What rod settings provide quickest bean cooling?


I and one of my friends has installed the power control mod (it's so cheap to do..less than £6). His roaster is a bit faster than mine, and he uses it quite a lot, even though his mains voltage is only about 230V. I don't use mine that often because I use airflow, although I might start using it more to cater for summer/winter. Or if I want even more control over the roast without using more and more air. It's effective, because it simply adds another level of control apart from just pulling more air through.....so why not do it.

For fastest bean cooling SD fully in CA fully out. You can still add beans to the drum (back to back roast) with the SD fully in as for the first 2m it's not a problem, the beans will have cooled within 2m and you can open the damper again.



> Can any of the Dalian users out there tell me how they manipulate the CA and SD controls to get a declining rate of rise of bean temperature as the roast progresses?


No one can tell you this, it's going to depend on the bean, voltage and ambient temperature when you do the roast and to some extent the slight differences between roasters (personality). As for the declining ROR, again it depends on which part of the roast you want this and please view Scott Raos book with a critical eye, if this is where you're getting it from. Also don't take any notice of the world roasting competition profiles, which would never work in the real world!

In general though if you want to slow the ROR pull more air through the drum, if you want to increase it pull less air through the drum. Think of the Cooling Air rod as the front gear on a 30 speed derailleur gear as used on a bike. and the Smoke Damper Rod as the back 6 cogs. Airflow is shared between the CA and the SD, more of one less of the other.

CA = Full open, smallest cog at front, then the back 6 cogs are the SD air (low gears if you like) 1-6

CA = 75% open , back 6 cogs give you gears 7-12

CA = 50% open , back 6 cogs give you gears 13-18

CA = 25% open , back 6 cogs give you gears 19-24

CA = 0% open , back 6 cogs give you gears 25-30


----------



## Paolo5

Thanks for your thoughtful reply Dave.

(and thanks for your PM, Paul!)

Through trial and error I have found the sweet-spot for my Dalian that I use for 1kg loads. With the CA set at 4 and the SD set at 5 I get the temperature turnaround time at around 2m 30s and from there the bean temperature rises between 5 and 6 degrees C each minute.

I make slight changes by pushing in the CA rod 0.5cm at a time if the temp rises by more than 6C/minute and consistently get end of roast times between 11 and 13 minutes.

The roasts that I get are really, really great! I just have never felt that I have had full control of my Dalian.

I have one of the potentiometers that you recommended, Dave...and some silicone wiring..so may install it tomorrow.

Thanks again,

Paolo


----------



## Paolo5

I installed the power control mod. this morning.

I turned the roaster on to see how it all went and all seems A-OK.

It will be interesting to use it next roasting day.


----------



## PIP

Hi. I was finding my roasts were running away with me a little, probably partly due to my voltage always being around 250. I eventually found my sweet spot and control I needed were with the cd almost fully closed. However , the biggest change for me was lowering the setpoints on the the two controllers - quite a lot lower than the recommendations in the user guide. One batch of baked rather than roasted beans was the only disaster I've had - but I needed to experience the two ends of the spectrum, too low and too high. Although I've never had bad roasts (apart from the baked beans), I'm now getting some great roasts, and feel i have the control near the end of the roast to make small adjustments and have a decision point to dump the beans rather than a panic 'get them out' before too dark.

Be interested to see how you get on with the power mod.


----------



## Paolo5

It is very early days for me with the power control modification.

When measuring the available power before I started roasting I found that I could vary the power to the heating element really easily. Normal power available to my Dalian is around 2500W..but this could be reduced instantly and directly with the dial button.

I did 2 roasts with my usual rod settings a few days ago.

I tried the power control button only after 1st crack had started. I turned it down 'just a bit' in order to compensate for the extra heat released as beans were opening.

It will be a lot more trial and error for me as I get used to things..but it seems like a valuable ace up my roasting sleeve if/when things 'get a bit heated'.


----------



## Paolo5

I did a few more 1kg Dalian roasts on Saturday. I have done 47 roasts with my Dalian now, only the last 4 roasts with the power controller installed.

Before roasting, I measured the wattage that the machine was using under full power. It was 2500W give or take a few Watts. By turning the power button to its other extremity, the power went down to 190W. *That* is a great degree of control!

I push the 'Cooling Air' rod in slightly if the minute-by-minute roasting temperature reading starts to rise relative to the last minute reading. It works for me...I used the power controller to take the edge off the temperature only once rolling 1st crack had started. It worked a treat!

I sampled the Monsooned Malabar in my QM Achille this morning and the results were as good (or better) as any coffee that I have ever had. These beans are notoriously difficult to roast evenly when compared to nearly every other origin of bean...but the results in the Dalian have been wonderful.


----------



## DocRoast

Hi Dave,

Just bought the roaster. Where can I get hold of your user guide?

Regards


----------



## DavecUK

DocRoast said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Just bought the roaster. Where can I get hold of your user guide?
> 
> Regards


I assume you purchased it from Bella Barista, the 3 printed guides will be delivered with it:


10 page quick start

5 page installation guide

42 page user and roasting guide


For obvious reasons they don't give electronic copies, as it cost them money for me to produce these guides. They go way beyond any manufacturers documentation and were the result of 100s of hours of testing by me.


----------



## DocRoast

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the reply. Yes, bought it from Bella Barista. They are shipping it to South Africa for me! This is my first ever roaster and after a lot of serching I happened to find this thread. Made my choice easy. Now looking forward to getting started. If you don't mind I might be asking some silly questions soon as I get going on this new adventure....


----------



## DavecUK

DocRoast said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Thanks for the reply. Yes, bought it from Bella Barista. They are shipping it to South Africa for me! This is my first ever roaster and after a lot of serching I happened to find this thread. Made my choice easy. Now looking forward to getting started. If you don't mind I might be asking some silly questions soon as I get going on this new adventure....


If I can answer them I will....but you will enjoy using the roaster. Very easy to get a good roast and very low maintenance.


----------



## DocRoast

First question, Marko has most probably asked you as well, what do I need to be able to connect the roaster to a laptop computer to record roast profiles with "Artisan".


----------



## DavecUK

DocRoast said:


> First question, Marko has most probably asked you as well, what do I need to be able to connect the roaster to a laptop computer to record roast profiles with "Artisan".


I've already replied to them.


----------



## Paolo5

Hi Everyone,

I am getting an E1 error message on the Air Temp controller.

Has anyone had this one appear and knows what I can do to get my roaster working again?

Cheers,

Paolo


----------



## DavecUK

Paolo5 said:


> Hi Everyone,
> 
> I am getting an E1 error message on the Air Temp controller.
> 
> Has anyone had this one appear and knows what I can do to get my roaster working again?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Paolo





> Originally Posted by *Paolo5*
> 
> Hi Dave,
> 
> I just turned my Dalian on and the right controller...the 'Air Temp." one is showing 'E1".
> 
> I looked up the Ewelly sheet and it says "When the sensor is short circuit".
> 
> Do you have a direction that I could travel to find out what is wrong? I have been using the full power mod successfully for about 6 months or so...could that have anything to do with it?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Paolo


It does annoy me a little bit when someone posts a pm and then the same sort of question on the forum. I have posted my reply below to avoid people wasting their time making suggestions already made. It's a forum and trying to do things privately and simultaneously, wastes everyone's time, it also limits information that could be shared with others.

The power mod will not have caused this problem, it only affects the power going to the heating element. There are 2 thermal sensors, one on the front plate of the drum. This is the bean mass sensor and is the left one on the front plate (left controller). One inside the chamber that the drum rotates in just below and between the ends of the heating element, it's on the rear of the outer chamber holding the drum. ( right controller).

The roaster should still work OK, it's just you no longer have a reading of the outer environmental sensor and it's ability to cut power if the temperature exceeds the preset value (safety feature). e.g. if some chaff caught fire, or the bean mass sensor was giving incorrect readings. You still have the T type thermocouple sensor on the front plate as well as the analogue dial to give a double check, should something be wrong with the bean mass sensor.

They are PT100 sensors, so usually quite reliable, it sounds like a wiring fault. This might be where the sensor wires enter the rear of the controller and they might need cleaning/re tightening. Or it could be the wire connections in the sensor tip have gone bad...if it is the latter, you need to order a new one from Bella Barista. You should be able to continue to use the roaster with no problems whilst waiting for a spare.

After I answered this a second mail was received.




Paolo5 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I had a spare potentiometer like this one:-
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/AC-220V-5...item54244f674b
> 
> and swapped it out but it gives the same error message.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Paolo


The link doesn't work, I can't see what it is you used? I don't think it's a potentiometer though, potentiometers are simply rotary controlled variable resistors?

If you mean another power controller....no it won't be the problem and your roaster should still be working, is it not working?

...................

*This is because I now wasn't sure if it was heating or not!* The controllers have little low power relays in them which control the main power relay. If an E1 error prevents 1 of the controllers from activating it's relay, then the heating element won't work. It's because the series connection of the low power on/off relays require both to be on for the heating element to be on. This way if either temperature setting is exceeded the heating element will switch off. I have not had an E1 error before and didn't try to induce the error to test...but thinking about it it probably would prevent the controller from activating the relay.

*If and only if it's not heating*...* if you feel confident with a multimeter and understand the way it's wired.* You could bypass the relay and then allow control by the remaining controller with the sensor in the bean mass. While you wait for a spare. *NOTE the little box that says load refers to the wiring to the rest of the roaster, it's not just a little box on that wire near the controller.* In the case of the right hand controller...it's load will the relay of the left hand controller.









So it should be as simple as connecting the 2 wires shown in the photo with the blue arrow together using a connecting block or WAGO (I suppose you could put the wire in connector 1 into connector 3). However check it first in case I'm wrong or the chinese diagrams are incorrect/they didn't wire it as per diagrams. *As they say, it's at your own risk, I take no responsibility.*....although the worst that could happen is you blow the main fuse, or very unlikely pop a controller and see some magic blue smoke...but you can test with a meter before doing.









I'll give no more information than this as more questions simply indicate a lack of competence to perform the procedure. Please report back your success or not here and I stress, ONLY do this if it's not heating and the temperature sensor wiring was checked and seems OK. It's a temporary fix designed to get you back roasting until a spare arrives.


----------



## CampervanCoffeeCo

Hello

I've just been to BB and checked the Dalian Amazon roaster, it seems great, just what i need. Theres one area I don't understand, why is the PID set at 195 on the roasting temp controller, I get why the Air temp has a maximum to charge up to but not why the roasting temp is pre-set in the chamber. Also what hardware do i need to connect to the K type thermocouple?

Many thanks

M


----------



## DavecUK

CampervanCoffeeCo said:


> Hello
> 
> I've just been to BB and checked the Dalian Amazon roaster, it seems great, just what i need. Theres one area I don't understand, why is the PID set at 195 on the roasting temp controller, I get why the Air temp has a maximum to charge up to but not why the roasting temp is pre-set in the chamber. Also what hardware do i need to connect to the K type thermocouple?
> 
> Many thanks
> 
> M


It's said at 195C because that's what I decided at the time based on the fact I didn't know what voltage people would have and how they would use the roaster. *I usually run mine at 192/193C*, as I find for the techniques I use these are good values. For some beans techniques and conditions you might want to set it even lower, but not by too much. If you're the reason that the probe ion the bean mass is set with a temp to control the heating elements...it's because I tried to replicate the techniques I used to use on an old probat 25Kg gas roaster that gave exceptional roasts. I was looking to set a "burner off" at a temperature where the residual heat would ensure 1st crack continues at a good pace with enough thermal mass in the beans/roaster to move them all the way to 2nd if required with judicious use of airflow for regulating speed.

It also allows for the roaster to automatically control a point at which I don't think you need any more heat energy to be supplied to the roast. You can set it higher, but you run the risk of rushing the 1st crack and the time after 1st, which is not good for the coffee which is fragile then. If you set it really high, then you have to switch it off manually, which is a PITA. In the same way you need to be careful with airflow to avoid the race to first and force 1st crack before it's ready. There are some who believe a 7m 1st crack with a 7-8m total roast time in a drum roaster produces a good tasting coffee (usually those in the world roasting championships).

The air temp is more for safety, guidance in the case of problems, as it's really the environmental temp of the drum chamber.....it should rarely if ever reach the preset temperature I specified. The bean mass probe in the drum will turn the controller off first

The Hardware to connect to the additional K type will depend on the software you decide to use and they normally specify this.

There is a 42 page roasting guide I wrote that covers all of this.....comes free with the roaster.


----------



## CampervanCoffeeCo

Many thanks for that, I've got the guide, Its very useful, good work.

Its just this one area I'm not getting........so when the temperature reaches 192/193C for example, does the heat source (filament) switch off to regulate the drum to that temperature? I assumed you would do that by switching the heat down or off. If I want to slow the roast down/stretch it out, as far as I understood, I can alter the temperature throughout the roast using the left hand panel, is this right?

I'm planning on using artisan.

I'm so close to buying one, just need these grey areas cleared up.

Thanks in advance for your help,

M


----------



## CampervanCoffeeCo

Many thanks for that, I've got the guide, Its very useful, good work.

Its just this one area I'm not getting........so when the temperature reaches 192/193C for example, does the heat source (filament) switch off to regulate the drum to that temperature? I assumed you would do that by switching the heat down or off. If I want to slow the roast down/stretch it out, as far as I understood, I can alter the temperature throughout the roast using the left hand panel, is this right?

I'm planning on using artisan.

I'm so close to buying one, just need these grey areas cleared up.

Thanks in advance for your help,

M


----------



## DavecUK

CampervanCoffeeCo said:


> Many thanks for that, I've got the guide, Its very useful, good work.
> 
> Its just this one area I'm not getting........so when the temperature reaches 192/193C for example, does the heat source (filament) switch off to regulate the drum to that temperature? I assumed you would do that by switching the heat down or off. If I want to slow the roast down/stretch it out, as far as I understood, I can alter the temperature throughout the roast using the left hand panel, is this right?
> 
> I'm planning on using artisan.
> 
> I'm so close to buying one, just need these grey areas cleared up.
> 
> Thanks in advance for your help,
> 
> M


The heating element is so powerful that it will most likely overcome efforts to reduce temperature by air alone, besides you don't want to introduce too much air at the end of a roast, you need some for smoke clearance, but loads...is bad for the taste. So it's better to switch is off. If you want even more control, then you can always do the power control mod for £6, but there will still be hysteresis and the heating element doesn't cool instantly the power is reduced! The heating element switches off, the drum temperature might still continue to rise (thermal lag and exothermic reactions at 1st), so you might also have to pull a little more air. I really wouldn't fret too much about it...it's easy to over-think things.....I've already done all the testing and had the manufacturer make the changes.

You won't find a better roaster for the money, not even close and it does produce a fantastic roast....you should buy it.


----------



## Paolo5

Thanks for your help Dave.

I must apologize for double posting. I was desperate and sent you a PM as I figured that you would see that sooner than seeing my question in the thread. Then I thought about the power controller and sent you another PM as I thought that the information might be relevant. Upon sending this second PM I realized that I had actually posted it onto the Dalian thread by mistake. It made sense only in the context sent to you in the first PM so I deleted the post, sent it to you as a PM and then just put the questions sent to you in the first PM onto the thread as there was nothing left after I deleted the second PM. AAAAAGGHH!!! Confusing to me so must be chaos to anyone else. Anyway, I am sorry about the way that it panned out.









The heater wasn't working at all. I removed each wire from the rear of the Air Temp controller and cleaned each one and re-installed them one by one back into the controller. There was no change so I put the wire in connector 1 into connector 3. This gave heating again as you predicted.









I was able to do one roast..all with the E1 error message showing on the Air Temp controller. At the end of the roast I dumped the beans and the Air Temp Controller started to show random numbers and the heater immediately turned off. The random numbers stabilized to give a constant and relevant reading. The heater has stayed off during the cool-down running that I do before shutting the Dalian down.

I was really fortunate to be able to get another roast in but now there is no heating and no 'E1' error code.

I hope that you can help me further.

Thanks,

Paolo


----------



## Paolo5

I removed the control panel again and put the wire that was in connector 3 back into connector 1...which is the original configuration.

I turned the machine on and everything is back to normal. The Heater light and heater come on and there is no 'E1' error code but a temperature reading on the Air Temp Controller....it got better!!!!

Now I am thoroughly confused...


----------



## DavecUK

Paolo5 said:


> I removed the control panel again and put the wire that was in connector 3 back into connector 1...which is the original configuration.
> 
> I turned the machine on and everything is back to normal. The Heater light and heater come on and there is no 'E1' error code but a temperature reading on the Air Temp Controller....it got better!!!!
> 
> Now I am thoroughly confused...


There is a bad connection with the temperature sensor...best get a spare in case it happens again.


----------



## Paolo5

Thanks Dave.

I have just ordered one of these:-

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261081969245?ul_noapp=true

to keep as a spare. Do you know if the temperature sensor included with the controller is the same one that is used with the Dalian?


----------



## DavecUK

Paolo5 said:


> Thanks Dave.
> 
> I have just ordered one of these:-
> 
> http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/261081969245?ul_noapp=true
> 
> to keep as a spare. Do you know if the temperature sensor included with the controller is the same one that is used with the Dalian?


Yes it's the same as is the probe. Just be mindful of probe insertion length. One advantage of this commercial roaster is that many spares can be bought online very cheaply.


----------



## Paolo5

Hi Dave,

The new probe arrived. Are there any things in particular that I need to watch out for or adhere to (besides the insertion length) when fitting the new one?

I will check to see if any parts on the original probe are loose. Maybe the original one is still ok.


----------



## DavecUK

Paolo5 said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> The new probe arrived. Are there any things in particular that I need to watch out for or adhere to (besides the insertion length) when fitting the new one?
> 
> I will check to see if any parts on the original probe are loose. Maybe the original one is still ok.


Just insertion length and be gentle with the probe wiring. before fitting though ensure you check controller probe wiring and fit just the probe first, as the controller might be fine. If the controller is fine, then you just need to order a probe from Bella Barista or from the web if you get exactly the right type (PT100), length fitting and wiring connectors.... to maintain a full spares set of controller and probe.

This would probably work fine for under £3

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-400C-PT100-Type-5mm-x-50mm-Thermocouple-Probe-2-Meters-MJ/222043987196?_trksid=p2047675.c100005.m1851&_trkparms=aid%3D222007%26algo%3DSIM.MBE%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D44293%26meid%3D3141d08736d54ba9a4dcc9c99f17af6a%26pid%3D100005%26rk%3D5%26rkt%3D6%26sd%3D272646487269


----------



## Paolo5

I located and removed the suspect probe. It screws into the back of the drum.








The OE probe has the red-wire terminal marked 'A' and the other 2 white-wire terminals both marked 'B'.

The new probe has a red-wire terminal with an orange cap, and a yellow and a brown-wire terminal, each with a blue cap.









The OE probe is 40mm in length and the one that I bought is 50mm in length.

I intend to thread the new one just enough to have to have it locate properly into the drum's thread. It will (by necessity) protrude maybe 10mm further into the drum than the OE one did.

Logic tells me that the yellow and the brown wire are interchangeable where they are attached to the controller...and the red wire with the orange cap locates into the same place in the controller as the OE red-wire








I intend to loop the extra length of the new probe (it is 2 metres long and the OE one is 1 metre long) and put some insulation over the new wire, which has a stainless steel sheath..the OE one is insulated.

Do you think that if I go ahead as I have outlined here that all will be ok?


----------



## DavecUK

PT100_con.pdf

This document should help you work out the probe connections (use a multimeter). Be super careful with the probe, that extra protrusion may cause it to foul something in the drum, keep it out as far as the threads allow and turn the drum by hand one whole revolution to ensure it does not touch, remember there will be some expansion when hot, so if you can use a mirror to be certain you have enough clearance. I am pretty sure it will be fin though.

A bit of insulation over the metal sheath can't hurt, they probably did that to stop it shorting anything behind the control panel, you you only need to insulate that bit.....the bit outside the drum looks like slip in high temperature sheath which you would leave in place.

P.S. I still think you should check using the document, but I took my 14 year old son out to show him how to use the multimeter and explained how the probe worked. He immediately said the blue cap wires must be the common ones and red the wire the other side of the resistor. I said we should double check and we were able to confirm his deduction. blue cap to red cap measured about 109 (it's warm today) and blue cap to blue cap measured 0 ohms. In case your wondering why this is....often when they extend probe wiring e.g. to get 2m they probably use that 3 core stuff each with a different colour, but used the end caps to show which was which.....the reason they don't say...well they're Chinese. The Chinese figure you should be smart enough to work it out, because they think we are all much less well educated compared to them. *I figure you still need to check yours, because I know they can be sloppy workers and I don't assume they connected the wires properly at the join you can't see....so double check your resistances with your multimeter. *


----------



## Paolo5

I can't thank you enough, Dave..

When I ordered a new controller (which comes with a probe) I ordered a spare probe as well. I checked both new probes with a multimeter as per your explanation and your *"Where do those wires go-PT100"* sheet and both new probes checked out positive, with the red wire *really being the red wire!*

All that remains is an actual roast to determine whether the controller itself was/is to blame.

I will let you know how it goes when I roast next.

Thanks,

Paolo


----------



## Paolo5

I have just finished roasting four 1kg roasts with the new PT100 probe (with the 10mm longer sensor) installed.

The sensor did not foul anything and it worked perfectly.


----------



## DavecUK

Paolo5 said:


> I have just finished roasting four 1kg roasts with the new PT100 probe (with the 10mm longer sensor) installed.
> 
> The sensor did not foul anything and it worked perfectly.


Great to hear and get the feedback for everyone. So you just need a spare sensor to go with your brand new spare controller







, as I'm guessing it was the sensor at fault.


----------



## johnealey

Afternoon all,

Thought would post on this thread rather than the "experiences" thread so as to keep with the fixes idea.

Anyone had any issues with the sirocco fan failing to start up on top of the chaff collector cyclone?

Mine failed to start this morning, everything else running fine (drum, heater, PID's, cooling tray just no fan).

Once realised was not running ( one of my checks within seconds so as not to get caught out when drum hot) shut the drum down / heat off and could hear the cyclone fan motor (sirocco) humming but not running. Top of motor hot to touch after 30 seconds of being on.

*NOTE:* am *not* roasting with the cyclone motor not running until establish what is wrong so as to ensure no failure mid roast which then results in a fire (safety first, can always buy roasted beans)

Quick strip down from top of cyclone and ran upside down on bench with all fan elements still attached. Turned off fan at roaster, tripped the RCD on the plug. Reset RCD turned on and off again lots no more RCD issues however to get motor spinning push fan blades and starts up, when spun down will not start again without help. Once running runs normally and with no visible difference of speed or suction.

Photo below shows stripped down motor minus fan and only thing I noticed straight away was the resistor (?) inline before the cables go into the housing / windings had a bulge to side under one of the cable entry points. No other obvious damage to windings or middle pole magnets ( can supply photos if needed as split the case on the motor as well)









Before I push the button on the £169 full assembly from BB is there anything anyone can suggest look at (or have looked at their own to rule out damaged / warn out / defunct resistor on photo). Have no issue with getting a replacement is more a question of time / extraneous parts etc as was planning on a 6kg roasting session as almost out ourselves plus family / roast shares that would be put off to mid week earliest rather than if the resistor which could potentially be replaced via a trip to maplins today if that makes sense.

Motor assembly does appear to be wired from windings all the way back to the roaster side plug and don't have a magic spare motor to slot in (nor can find one using part number on google).

Any help gratefully appreciated, I do have a multimeter and a modicum of ex PC / Server engineer electrical experience however a little guidance on what to look for in terms of values to expect would be helpful

John


----------



## johnealey

additional photo of "bulge"









@DavecUK whilst replacing the whole assembly with new might afford me the future option of a spare (if can find a fix for motor unit / re wind etc) and noting the wiring goes direct from roaster rear plug connector to motor windings, enviro part of me looking to repair rather than just fit new part hence ask.

Thanks all in advance and would like to say first issue with this one in more than a year / 150kg of roasts most of them back to back ave. 5kgs at a time with checking / vacuuming out, greasing being the only actionable items to date









John


----------



## DavecUK

You just need one of these John. It's a start run capacitor 450V AC 1.5uF 50/60Hz Polypropylene Film Motor Start Run Capacitor..... cbb61 type. Shouldn't cost more than a few £s. it's important to get the capacitance right, or you affect the current in the windings. So 1.5 microfarad is important. yours has clearly failed and your fan may well have run rough for a while now. I always keep a spare for my cooker hood since i had one go, although it's a slightly different value. My cooker hood was always a bit rumbly from new, and finally the capacitor failed, so I purchased 2 and used 1 of them.

*So just to be clear....your motor is fine, it's just a £1.35 part needs replacing, a 5 minute job, once you get the part.*

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Running-Start-Up-Capacitor-Metallized-Pp-Film-Motor-Cbb61-1-5Uf-450V-Ac-New-Ic-U-/382053981009?hash=item58f4311b51:g:4gQAAOSw4GVYISPd

or 2 for £2

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2Pcs-Cbb61-1-5Uf-450V-Ac-Metallized-Pp-Film-Motor-Running-Start-Up-Capacitor-I-B-/122400344175?hash=item1c7fa1086f:g:x-AAAOSw4GVYIIPJ


----------



## DavecUK

Just a thought, if you want one faster amazon or RS components etc.. UK sourced, but likely to cost £5


----------



## johnealey

Thanks Dave, genuinely appreciate your help and assistance especially on a Sunday!

Thanks again

John


----------



## Paolo5

Thanks Dave...this spare part will be a good item to have in my "Dalian Survival Kit".

Thanks, John...for this post. You mentioned 'greasing'...what parts need greasing...and what grease do you use for the Dalian?


----------



## johnealey

Am away from roaster at moment but a small amount of grease, high temp food safe silicone grease from memory to the bearing under the front cap as per the instruction in DaveC's very handy guide (if you have only read the quick start, find time to read the main one, full of useful nuggets and pretty sure the spec of the grease / frequency is mentioned therein)

Have managed to find some 4 tab 450v ac 1.5uF +/- 5% tolerance from RS components that are in stock so they were posted out this afternoon via Parcelforce:

http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/polypropylene-film-capacitors/8432032/

£2.80 for two inc. postage so on the assumption that the cable in the existing damaged one can be cut / soldered or crimp connector/ shrink-wrapped either as 1 tab at each end (with corresponding blank tab shrink-wrapped) or both tabs at opposite ends, might serve as ideal or better than waiting for the Chinese delivery estimated between 20 July and 11th August.....

Hope of help

John


----------



## Paolo5

Thanks John.

You have just alerted me to the fact that there IS a full guide in existence.

I didn't receive one (full guide) with my roaster.

Will have to contact Bella Barista.

Cheers!


----------



## DavecUK

3 manuals, all essential


Installation guide

Quick Start Guide - Key information on how to use the roaster

User guide - more advanced stuff (quick start info is not duplicated in this guide)


Oh as for greasing, the front bush bearing is actually self lubricating, but as I'm not a trustworthy individual, I choose to lubricate it once per year anyway. There is also a bearing at the back of the drum, need to remove right hand side plate, this might require greasing every few years. Any excess grease cannot get into the drum from here (might smell a bit), because it's actually outside of the roasting area behind a backplate....so I use good quality lithium grease on this.


----------



## DavecUK

@johnealey, are you all sorted out now with those capacitors...all working again and is the fan stronger?


----------



## DocRoast

Hi Dave,

I am very happy with my Dalian Amazon roaster and seems to be doing most things right to get a decent roast. I am struggling to connect to Artisan though. The start up temperatures on the roaster and that displayed by Artisan differ, I understand that this is because of the different positions of the probes. What puzzles me though is that on the graph recorded by Artisan the temp does not fall as low as the roaster meter indicates after charging. It ends up giving me a very flat graph, not a nice bell curve, if you know what I mean. I am connected to the K probe via a Yoctopuce thermocouple. Please help.


----------



## DavecUK

DocRoast said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> I am very happy with my Dalian Amazon roaster and seems to be doing most things right to get a decent roast. I am struggling to connect to Artisan though. The start up temperatures on the roaster and that displayed by Artisan differ, I understand that this is because of the different positions of the probes. What puzzles me though is that on the graph recorded by Artisan the temp does not fall as low as the roaster meter indicates after charging. It ends up giving me a very flat graph, not a nice bell curve, if you know what I mean. I am connected to the K probe via a Yoctopuce thermocouple. Please help.


The positioning of the K type thermocouple is the issue, not much you can do. As long as it's consistent, which it will be, it doesn't really matter. If you want artisan to record the bean mass itself, then you will have to swap probe positions (e.g. the PTR probe with the K type probe), but then the controller on the roaster will need to be set differently, e.g. temperature lowered to account for the fact that it's no longer in the bean mass.

Other than this I can't help you as I don't use computer controlled roasting software.


----------



## DocRoast

Thanks for the quick reply Dave.

Is it OK if I just physically swop the two probes without undoing any wires or connections?


----------



## DocRoast

Dave,

Could I run a couple of wires from the back of the PTR probe meter to Artisan? Would this not give me the exact readings on both? Would any harm come to the probe or anything else?

Leon


----------



## DavecUK

DocRoast said:


> Dave,
> 
> Could I run a couple of wires from the back of the PTR probe meter to Artisan? Would this not give me the exact readings on both? Would any harm come to the probe or anything else?
> 
> Leon


Most respectfully...I am fearful of giving further advice to someone who may not really know what they are doing.....sorry


----------



## DocRoast

Not quite the answer expected from someone that once told me that there are no stupid questions.... All I am trying to do is record my roast profiles with the aim of improving my roasts. If I swop the probes and one gets damaged I will be worse off, hence all the questions to avoid inadvertently doing something stupid. Is that not the point of discussing these things with the experts?


----------



## Paolo5

If you don't have a grease gun with a flexible nozzle, you can make the job of greasing your Dalian right/rear bearing a snap by swapping the M6 (straight) grease nipple that Amazon installs on the Dalian when new for an M6 45 degree offset grease nipple.








This allows the owner to grease the right (rear) bearing without having to remove the burnished drum cover. You just need to remove the right/rear baffled top cover to gain access.


----------



## DavecUK

DocRoast said:


> Not quite the answer expected from someone that once told me that there are no stupid questions.... All I am trying to do is record my roast profiles with the aim of improving my roasts. If I swop the probes and one gets damaged I will be worse off, hence all the questions to avoid inadvertently doing something stupid. Is that not the point of discussing these things with the experts?


There are no stupid questions...but the questions do indicate a lack of understanding of basic principles. I don't want you to damage your roaster. Why can't you just use the values your software gives you, as long as it's consistent, it doesn't matter does it?


----------



## DocRoast

Hi Dave,

Have swopped the two probes. By how much do you recommend that I lower the temp on the controller?


----------



## DavecUK

DocRoast said:


> Hi Dave,
> 
> Have swapped the two probes. By how much do you recommend that I lower the temp on the controller?


To whatever temp the probe that used to be there showed when first crack usually started....this will make a good starting point. It should probably be around the 170/180C value, *but it really does depend on what your T Type probe showed when it was in that position!!*


----------



## DocRoast

Thanks Dave. Interestingly I have noted the following: I had to raise the temp setting on the controller to get the drum to warm up sufficiently to get proper temp in the bean mass as recorded with the k probe. At the lower settings the controller kept turning the heating element off before correct temp in the bean mass was reached. I have it set at 210C now to stop the roast from flat lining just after first crack started. With the original probe positions I had 1st crack at about 185C (on T probe) and 220C on the K probe. With the swopped positions I got 1st crack at 188C (K probe). Your comments?


----------



## DavecUK

DocRoast said:



> Thanks Dave. Interestingly I have noted the following: I had to raise the temp setting on the controller to get the drum to warm up sufficiently to get proper temp in the bean mass as recorded with the k probe. At the lower settings the controller kept turning the heating element off before correct temp in the bean mass was reached. I have it set at 210C now to stop the roast from flat lining just after first crack started. With the original probe positions I had 1st crack at about 185C (on T probe) and 220C on the K probe. With the swopped positions I got 1st crack at 188C (K probe). Your comments?


I have no comments, you have gone well beyond anything I tested.


----------



## Batian

DaveUK: re Power meters

I have waded through your posts in this thread and my brain is buzzing! There will be several re reads!

Apologies if I have missed it, but it would seem that a power meter is an essential bit of kit. You seem make references in the thread to a model you have previously recommended. I have missed the detail or was it in another thread ?

Please could you repeat your advice as to suitable power meters to use with the Dalian Amazon.

I also note several references to various bits and bobs that are low cost items that may fail in the roaster.

Would it be possible for you to prepare a 'First Aid' list of these components?

Thanks in advance.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> DaveUK: re Power meters
> 
> I have waded through your posts in this thread and my brain is buzzing! There will be several re reads!
> 
> Apologies if I have missed it, but it would seem that a power meter is an essential bit of kit. You seem make references in the thread to a model you have previously recommended. I have missed the detail or was it in another thread ?
> 
> Please could you repeat your advice as to suitable power meters to use with the Dalian Amazon.
> 
> I also note several references to various bits and bobs that are low cost items that may fail in the roaster.
> 
> Would it be possible for you to prepare a 'First Aid' list of these components?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


The power control meters that seem accurate usually look like this










As for the list of components, there is not a lot to fail, the Eliwelly controller can be purchased on ebay for £29 inc postage, relays, switches etc.. can be purchased from RS components and similar here in the UK. If something fails, just look at it and source something the same or very similar. in all honesty there is not very much to fail. If a fan or other motor fails, it will often be a start run capacitor, remove it and order one from ebay for a few quid. if it's the drum, stirrer or fan motor, then these can all be sourced, but with a wait from china, or an alternative sourced in the UK, failing that BB will get you one.

The fan belt is simply a car fan belt Kevlar reinforced and the same size is actually used on many self propelled mowers.


----------



## DavecUK

Checking out BB today to update myself on the price of stuff and was surprised to see the Dalian roasters sold out AGAIN. Obviously this is not a bump because the next lot won't be in for months due to shipping. The thing I guess I don';t understand is they only landed in the UK in the new year. So presumably must have all sold out before they even arrived!

2 things then spring to mind.....use the deposit option to save 200 quid and it's only visible if you select 1kg roasters, otherwise you won't see it if you just select Dalian. I know it dissapears at some point between BB ordering a new batch of roasters and them almost arriving in the UK!

The other thing is....who an earth is buying all these 1Kg roasters. Is it home users, roasteries to have a small 1kg available, new business startup......because it's not like BB just order a few roasters each time from China. I assumed the 1kg market would reach saturation point quite rapidly, but it's easy to forget this forum is only a very small proportion of people into coffee, as a huge number of little Genecafes are sold each year and again the numbers would surprise. So where do people think these Amazon roasters are going, have to seen any in coffee shops roasting coffee??

P.S. I have had quite a few requests for training, but these already have their roasters from batches that arrived back in November 2017, one just got one of the last batch (new year) and others are thinking about buying one (thought too long I guess).....so I am still baffled as to where they are going.


----------



## Batian

Are you sure?

My reading of the web pages and the conversations I have had with Marko (at BB) over the last few weeks say that the roasters are out of stock but deposits can be laid etc

(I cut and paste)

"SAVE £200 ON DALIAN AMAZON ROASTER BY PRE-ORDERING WITH A £400 DEPOSIT. Holding deposit for Dalian Amazon 1 KG roaster delivery estimated arrival to the UK end of January 2018 (weather permitting), balance £2750 (plus any shipping costs if you are not collecting the roaster)"

Maybe some confusion has arisen as the original forecast arrival was around Christmas---a week either side.?


----------



## Hasi

Did just that before Christmas - so one of those will ship to my elephant room (https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?42105-The-Elephant-Outside-the-Room&p=558991#post558991)

CAN'T WAIT!!


----------



## Blackbully

DavecUK said:


> ..........
> 
> The other thing is....who an earth is buying all these 1Kg roasters. Is it home users, roasteries to have a small 1kg available, new business startup......because it's not like BB just order a few roasters each time from China. I assumed the 1kg market would reach saturation point quite rapidly, but it's easy to forget this forum is only a very small proportion of people into coffee, as a huge number of little Genecafes are sold each year and again the numbers would surprise. *So where do people think these Amazon roasters are going*, have to seen any in coffee shops roasting coffee??
> 
> P.S. I have had quite a few requests for training, but these already have their roasters from batches that arrived back in November 2017, one just got one of the last batch (new year) and others are thinking about buying one (thought too long I guess).....so I am still baffled as to where they are going.


One of the roasters is going to the Netherlands I hope, this weekend I have preordered one









home use roaster. The gene cafe I got have seen about 200kilo green beans, so I that that it would be time to replace/ upgrade my roaster.

i would love to get training, but I don't think there is training available in the Netherlands ( maybe I can find an other user nearby who would give me a basic training)

Can't wait to buy, and get the roaster


----------



## DavecUK

Blackbully said:


> One of the roasters is going to the Netherlands I hope, this weekend I have preordered one
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> home use roaster. The gene cafe I got have seen about 200kilo green beans, so I that that it would be time to replace/ upgrade my roaster.
> 
> i would love to get training, but I don't think there is training available in the Netherlands ( maybe I can find an other user nearby who would give me a basic training)
> 
> Can't wait to buy, and get the roaster


It's worth asking Bella Barista if they can contact another Netherlands purchaser and forward them your details. I am pretty sure more than 1 roaster has been sold to someone living in the Netherlands. Otherwise if you are ever in the UK on business, even if it's at short notice, drop me an e-mail and I can try to do something for you..


----------



## Blackbully

DavecUK said:


> It's worth asking Bella Barista if they can contact another Netherlands purchaser and forward them your details. I am pretty sure more than 1 roaster has been sold to someone living in the Netherlands. Otherwise if you are ever in the UK on business, even if it's at short notice, drop me an e-mail and I can try to do something for you..


On a Dutch forum I have found one user who purchased this roaster, so I can ask him.

but maybe the manual you wrote is al the help I need. Time will tell


----------



## Batian

I see today that BB have stopped offering the discounted price (for deposit) and they are listing the Dalian Amazon as 'in stock'.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/coffee-roasters-for-sale/bellabarista-dalian-amazon-1-kg-roaster.html

Check your Inbox and Junk Mail boys and girls!


----------



## NAJB

Exciting times ahead!


----------



## Blackbully

No mail so far, i check it tomorrow again!

hope to get it delivered soon


----------



## Hasi

excitement!!


----------



## DavecUK

I do feel for you guys....I know what it must be like...waiting, waiting, waiting


----------



## Blackbully

I got mail









i know now now the shipping costs. It's a lot, but I can't pick it up by myself

won't take long now befor it comes to me


----------



## Batian

Blackbully said:


> I got mail
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i know now now the shipping costs. It's a lot, but I can't pick it up by myself
> 
> won't take long now befor it comes to me


Re shipping

Is it a time thing?

I understand its is not to expensive at this time of the year from Hook of Holland to Harwich/Felixstowe. And then it is more or less a straight run to Wellingborough ---dual carriageway nearly to BB door.


----------



## Batian

Update.....

If you are following this thread as you are expecting to hear from BB.....

They have a problem with some email addresses, and their kit refuses to send them. This affects several, but the common ones are "hotmail" and "yahoo".

So if (like me) you were expecting to hear from them---give Marko a bell.


----------



## Ted_Kent

Collect mine Tuesday, it will sit in the house looking pretty for a while while the workshop in the garden gets built.

Gives me a chance to read through the instructions a few times, carry out any mods that may be required (dimmer) and get some training in.


----------



## Hasi

They're collecting shipment offers for mine right now - Christmas ain't over yet...!


----------



## DavecUK

Blackbully said:


> I got mail
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i know now now the shipping costs. It's a lot, but I can't pick it up by myself
> 
> won't take long now befor it comes to me


Just curious, how much is the shipping?

Pity there isn't a forum member who is going to Holland by car....


----------



## Blackbully

DavecUK said:


> Just curious, how much is the shipping?
> 
> Pity there isn't a forum member who is going to Holland by car....


I think it wil be €175

cheaper then going to get it, but still a lot of money for me


----------



## johnealey

Just fits through the back door whilst still inside it's crate with the back seats down on a 17 plate VW Touran, if that helps







(was one of my reasons for picking that as a company vehicle when with the last company)

John


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Pity there isn't a forum member who is going to Holland by car....


really... someone drive through NL all the way to AT please! Needs bigger wheels than a Touran maybe to load two crates, though


----------



## Ted_Kent

All aboard with room to spare, just (due to an additional tank in the boot of my car)


----------



## DavecUK

Ted_Kent said:


> All aboard with room to spare, just (due to an additional tank in the boot of my car)
> 
> View attachment 31370


Just a thought, next time put the roaster behind the passenger seat if you can! However...mmmm shiney


----------



## Ted_Kent

DavecUK said:


> Just a thought, next time put the roaster behind the passenger seat if you can! However...mmmm shiney


I did consider that but it was a bit rocky due to it sitting half on the boot floor and half on the lowered seats. Unfortunately the thing with the red cap is fixed so the machine couldn't sit in the same place but on the left. It is however strapped around the base to the metal tie downs in the boot and I managed to get the rear seats back in the locked position before I left the estate. Ive no doubt in a serious accident and not secured it would easily tear through the skin of the car/van. What with this and the 20 litres of water methanol in the boot I'm buggered.

Rest stop at cobham services, quick run in get food and out, it would have been my luck to have it nicked out the back of the car.


----------



## Hasi

Earlier today...

Received Remaining Balance notification from Marko. Check!

Paid 'em. Check!

Received shipment confirmation from Claudette. Check!

Started waiting. Check!

Very friendly folks over there, looking so much forward to the delivery now


----------



## DavecUK

Is the waiting hard?


----------



## Blackbully

DavecUK said:


> Is the waiting hard?


Yup, I am waiting for my payment to complete (PayPal ) it feels like it takes ages...

than I need to start waiting for the delivery...

But I am sure it is worth the waiting


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Is the waiting hard?


oh boy... I dare you!







if I were located near you, I'd come over and roast on yours for the time being!!


----------



## Hasi

It.

Has.

Arrived.


----------



## Hasi




----------



## Densven

Enjoy Hasi.


----------



## DavecUK

Set-up looks really good Hasi.

Don't forget safety with your fire extinguisher and make sure you have a Torch on the bench if that's your only window, or you roast at night


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Set-up looks really good Hasi.
> 
> Don't forget safety with your fire extinguisher and make sure you have a Torch on the bench if that's your only window, or you roast at night


Thx!

Still need to get a CO2 extinguisher, currently we 'only' have a foam type around the corner...

The overall lighting situation is actually not bad (what you see is what the fluorescent tube gives) - what would you recommend the torch for?


----------



## ashcroc

Hasi said:


> Thx!
> 
> Still need to get a CO2 extinguisher, currently we 'only' have a foam type around the corner...
> 
> The overall lighting situation is actually not bad (what you see is what the fluorescent tube gives) - what would you recommend the torch for?


Fire blanket could be handy too. I'm guessing the torch is in case of power cuts.


----------



## Hasi

ashcroc said:


> Fire blanket could be handy too. I'm guessing the torch is in case of power cuts.


Dunno whether I'd trust a blanket at 1kg thermal load and a wooden trolley


----------



## ashcroc

Hasi said:


> Dunno whether I'd trust a blanket at 1kg thermal load and a wooden trolley


Was thinking both a blanket & fire extinguisher for a belt & braces approach but now you mention it a metal stand for it wouldn't go amiss.


----------



## Hasi

ashcroc said:


> Was thinking both a blanket & fire extinguisher for a belt & braces approach but now you mention it a metal stand for it wouldn't go amiss.


I built the undercarriage from scratch together with my older son in excited preparation of the roaster's arrival. Now I've got a heart vs. safety issue...









Maybe I have to go for your belt&braces idea


----------



## ashcroc

Hasi said:


> I built the undercarriage from scratch together with my older son in excited preparation of the roaster's arrival. Now I've got a heart vs. safety issue...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe I have to go for your belt&braces idea


Aww no chance you can't keep it.

Maybe a stainless top or a stone worktop offcut would finish it off nicely nicely?


----------



## DavecUK

If you can tip 1kg of flaming beans onto a 7mm wooden top and have it catch fire in any serious way....I'll give you an award.


----------



## johnealey

Wouldn't worry too much about sitting on wood, mines on a std kitchen worktop in a wooden cabin and you're more likely to have a chaff fire either at the back of the cooling tray where it drops from the roasting drum or in the chaff collector, both of which can be prevented by good clean outs with a vacuum / put out with CO2.

Torch is for when / if the power goes out and you are mid roast needing to work out whether you need to manually dump the beans (this is where the welders gloves come in so you can turn the drum by hand or use something fire resistant to pull the beans out if no gloves)

John


----------



## Hasi

Got it, thx! Never saw a power outage during roasting and there'll better be none either. Otherwise I have to have a word with the sparky in charge. But I see your point, 1kg worth of beans is a bigger loss than the 250g in the Quest. Hundreds of roasts into my adventure, I never had to dismiss a single batch. Even the very first tries were drinkable (at least I told myself so







). Knock-on-wood all bad luck stays well away from me!


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> Got it, thx! Never saw a power outage during roasting and there'll better be none either. Otherwise I have to have a word with the sparky in charge. But I see your point, 1kg worth of beans is a bigger loss than the 250g in the Quest. Hundreds of roasts into my adventure, I never had to dismiss a single batch. Even the very first tries were drinkable (at least I told myself so
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ). Knock-on-wood all bad luck stays well away from me!


If you spend the time/money planning for bad luck and problems.....oddly enough it seems to prevent incidents happening. This unfortunately leads those who have not planned to assume it's a waste of time and money..I think it's called "sods law". I have some major spares for my espresso machines...but have never needed to use them?


----------



## Hasi

Well, Dave, may I suggest you start walking under ladders to see how quickly that eats up your spares?









Nah... it's always good to be prepared, and I'll do just that by getting a CO2 extinguisher.

For now, I need to re-wire the fan/heater loom before I can kick off the first roast... still, Christmas ain't over yet!


----------



## johnealey

Oh and a heat detector (like a smoke detector but for hotter environs or where there is smoke produced). It is not for you as you will know when (if) you have a roaster fire, its for anyone else to hear to know you may need a little assistance. Something along he lines of : https://www.screwfix.com/p/fireangel-ht-630r-10-year-life-heat-alarm/5256g

John


----------



## Blackbully

Today my payment arrived







(10 day's later.. PayPal isn't very fast I learned)

tomorrow my roaster is going on transport

waiting is is harder when you know that it arrived faster at the other side of the world...


----------



## Hasi

Okay, here comes my awkward first test roast log:

Beans: 1kg of n/a (came with the roaster, the plastic bag didn't say nothing)

Electric: 233V, 9.6A, 2235W very constant

Ambient temp: 14.5°C

After playing around with the dampers to get a bit of an understanding (reaction times, effect on one another,...), I dropped them beans:

0m - 195C (RT, didn't take down AT for some reason), SD=3, CA=4

1m - 158C

2m - 150C

TP @2:56 (150C)

3m - 151C, SD=4

4m - 154C

5m - 158C

6m - 162C, CA=3

7m - 165C

8m - 168C, SD=3

9m - 172C

FCS @9:58 (175C)

10m - 176C

11m - 181C, SD=4, CA=4

12m - 188C, SD=5

SCS @12:38 (193C) that came as a surprise!

emptied @12:50 after realising there actually was a seamleass transition from FC to SC

So, basically burnt it. Garage was full of smoke







then I saw how important it is to close SD and door immediately!

On to the next try...

I wonder why FC and especially SC temp would be so low, maybe some freaky beans?

AT didn't go over 200C, analog thermometer showed some 230s, K-type probe (Artisan connectd) as well...


----------



## Ted_Kent

Hasi said:


> Okay, here comes my awkward first test roast log:
> 
> Beans: 1kg of n/a (came with the roaster, the plastic bag didn't say nothing)
> 
> Electric: 233V, 9.6A, 2235W very constant
> 
> Ambient temp: 14.5°C
> 
> After playing around with the dampers to get a bit of an understanding (reaction times, effect on one another,...), I dropped them beans:
> 
> 0m - 195C (RT, didn't take down AT for some reason), SD=3, CA=4
> 
> 1m - 158C
> 
> 2m - 150C
> 
> TP @2:56 (150C)
> 
> 3m - 151C, SD=4
> 
> 4m - 154C
> 
> 5m - 158C
> 
> 6m - 162C, CA=3
> 
> 7m - 165C
> 
> 8m - 168C, SD=3
> 
> 9m - 172C
> 
> FCS @9:58 (175C)
> 
> 10m - 176C
> 
> 11m - 181C, SD=4, CA=4
> 
> 12m - 188C, SD=5
> 
> SCS @12:38 (193C) that came as a surprise!
> 
> emptied @12:50 after realising there actually was a seamleass transition from FC to SC
> 
> So, basically burnt it. Garage was full of smoke
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> then I saw how important it is to close SD and door immediately!
> 
> On to the next try...
> 
> I wonder why FC and especially SC temp would be so low, maybe some freaky beans?
> 
> AT didn't go over 200C, analog thermometer showed some 230s, K-type probe (Artisan connectd) as well...


The beans i got with mine were Brazil Fazenda, no help to you now but worth knowing for your log. That's if you got the same, highly likely i imagine.


----------



## Hasi

2nd approach...

same surrounding stats and unknown beans









0m - 190/224C (this time I made notes of AT as well), SD=3, CA=8

1m - 155/195C

2m - 149/181C

3m - 149/178C

TP @3:28 (149C)

4m - 153/181C ...steam through back vents: CA=4

5m - 158/186C

6m - 162/189C

7m - 167/193C, SD=7

8m - 172/196C

FCS @8:27 (174C)

9m - 177/201C, CA=6

10m - 185/211C, SD=8

FCE @10:30 (188C)

SCS @10:38 (189C)

emptied @10:45 (190C)

uhm...


----------



## Hasi

Ted_Kent said:


> The beans i got with mine were Brazil Fazenda, no help to you now but worth knowing for your log. That's if you got the same, highly likely i imagine.


Thx Ted!

Only, which fazenda? (that simply means 'farm' in Portuguese)

But BR origin helps as a start...


----------



## DavecUK

@Hasi make sure you have the 12 page quick start guide, that actually contains key information on how to roast properly....it sounds like you may not have it?


----------



## Ted_Kent

Hasi said:


> Thx Ted!
> 
> Only, which fazenda? (that simply means 'farm' in Portuguese)
> 
> But BR origin helps as a start...


Sorry thats all i was told by Claudette, however looking at their website they are showing a Brazil Fazenda Camocim as in stock so maybe it is that?


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> @Hasi make sure you have the 12 page quick start guide, that actually contains key information on how to roast properly....it sounds like you may not have it?


haha, yep I don't - made me smile how you'd instantly know









BB is sending it over, they didn't put it in the crate... was holding onto p.18 of this thread for now - and trying out two extremes. It appears that I'm losing the roast well before FC and then it's all happening too quick.

Still, I'm confused over the differing temp readings as RT probe, analogue gauge and K-type probe don't show similar numbers at all on an empty drum. Shouldn't they since they're so close to each other?


----------



## Blackbully

DavecUK said:


> @Hasi make sure you have the 12 page quick start guide, that actually contains key information on how to roast properly....it sounds like you may not have it?


Is there a video available on a complete roast?

If not, why not?









i have the feeling that I can't start learning a bout the roaster until I got the unit, and than still need to cross my fingers that it includes the paperwork


----------



## RDC8

DavecUK said:


> @Hasi make sure you have the 12 page quick start guide, that actually contains key information on how to roast properly....it sounds like you may not have it?


 @Hasi there should actually be three different guides that come with the roaster - all written by @DavecUK. Did any documentation arrive with your roaster? They missed the quick-start manual from mine as well!!


----------



## Hasi

None. They've packed an internal check-up guide, instead.









But it's on the way now...

However, I feel like I've learned something today. Although I'm still not quite sure what it could be...


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> None. They've packed an internal check-up guide, instead.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> But it's on the way now...
> 
> However, I feel like I've learned something today. Although I'm still not quite sure what it could be...


You have learned you need to read that 12 page quickstart guide I wrote carefully, the information is not duplicated in the main guide.


----------



## Hasi




----------



## Batian

Blackbully said:


> Is there a video available on a complete roast?
> 
> If not, why not?
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> i have the feeling that I can't start learning a bout the roaster until I got the unit, and than still need to cross my fingers that it includes the paperwork


----------



## Batian

Dave,

I put my roaster together this morning. I went round it and found that the roasting temp/bean mass thermocouple was loose in its holder. The grub screw had not been tightened.

I note that there is an adjusting nut on the threaded shaft of the thermocouple. What should this be adjusted to prior to doing up the grub screw please?

Thank you. P.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> Dave,
> 
> I put my roaster together this morning. I went round it and found that the roasting temp/bean mass thermocouple was loose in its holder. The grub screw had not been tightened.
> 
> I note that there is an adjusting nut on the threaded shaft of the thermocouple. What should this be adjusted to prior to doing up the grub screw please?
> 
> Thank you. P.


Make sure that the bean mass probe is in as far as possible without touching the vanes inside the drum (rotate drum *BY HAND* to test), if its 1.5 mm or less close, then back it off 1mm to allow for thermal expansion.


----------



## Batian

Update to the above.

I adjusted the probe to its deepest position and it did not touch the vanes, well not that I could feel or hear on hand turning the drum through several revolutions..

Then I backed it of 1mm on the visual thread and re checked. Then I tightened the grub screw and checked again.

Fingers crossed that I have it right! I will pay careful attention as the roaster warms up.

Thank you.


----------



## Batian

Further update.

After much swotting the 'seasoning roast' started this morning.

Everything ran as per Dave's notes. Dampers opened and closed and the temperature controllers rising steadily.. .....

201 and the tension starts.......re read the notes while watching the timer and controllers....

219....the Air Temp controller flashes E1 then a weird temp and E1..... expletives deleted.....what did the notes say. I had not planned or swotted for this!

Brain in to emergency mode....old habits honed by training die hard......

Switch of the heater....read the notes on cooling down....expletive deleted...where did they come in the notes....

Find the notes and close Cooling Air damper and open Smoke Damper....

The bean hopper plunger.... the hopper has a kilo of beans...

Decide they will be OK whatever....

Temperature falling OK, panic subsiding. Exhaust only feels warm.

Glad I took the phone in to the Coffee Cavern. Called B&B.

Jordan talked me through the symptoms and declared the Air Temperature sensor was U/S.

Temp still falling.

Jordan declares he will post a new thermocouple ASAP and then talked me through the replacement procedure. Jordan assures me it is a simple job......

He ho , has he not heard of Sods Law!

NB.

Greens emptied via cooled drum and cooling tray.


----------



## Hasi

Haha, sounds like you had lots of fun already, as well









But it will all go well within the next couple tries... good luck!


----------



## scottybourn

Hey all anyone got a roast profile of mansoon Malbar done on the dilan ...? As I've just got my roaster done 2 roasts following Dave's guide that came with the roaster but fist crack started at 8 min mark


----------



## Hasi

You must be rather brave - according to the manual









Can't help you with a profile, but you def need to lower the roast temp. I'd try with 190C first, FCs @8mins is almost 3mins short of the goal. Also, reducing the bean mass might help with slower development.


----------



## RDC8

scottybourn said:


> Hey all anyone got a roast profile of mansoon Malbar done on the dilan ...? As I've just got my roaster done 2 roasts following Dave's guide that came with the roaster but fist crack started at 8 min mark


If you are wanting to slow down the ROR then you need to increase air-flow through the drum (ie sucking out more of the hot air!). This can be achieved by opening the damper for the roast chamber and/or closing the cooling air damper.

From my experience, a smaller bean mass progresses a lot faster, so I would suggest you stay with the 1kg charge. Also, with a smaller bean mass the heat probe may not be fully immersed in the beans therefore your temp readings wont be accurate.

Maybe stick to a more conventional bean, rather than MM, until you get used to controlling the ROR.

Best of luck


----------



## Blackbully

I can't wait until my roaster arrives.

need to find me a voltages/ wattage meter.

Question: never had problems roasting malbar (gene cafe roaster)

are they harder to control in a drumroaster? Because I read a lot off encouraging on roasting them.

( got 5kilo greens lying around)

i got other beans to roast for my learning curve, but I was yust wondering


----------



## Hasi

RDC8 said:


> If you are wanting to slow down the ROR then you need to increase air-flow through the drum (ie sucking out more of the hot air!). This can be achieved by opening the damper for the roast chamber and/or closing the cooling air damper.
> 
> From my experience, a smaller bean mass progresses a lot faster, so I would suggest you stay with the 1kg charge. Also, with a smaller bean mass the heat probe may not be fully immersed in the beans therefore your temp readings wont be accurate.
> 
> Maybe stick to a more conventional bean, rather than MM, until you get used to controlling the ROR.
> 
> Best of luck


Problem is when you just pull more air the beans dry out more and may adopt unwanted flavours (baked, dry, flat). Therefore, it's vital to reduce roast temp AND control ROR with the airflow

MM is one of the most difficult coffees you could roast, so easy to under-/overdo! That's why reducing bean mass (slightly!) can help to apply changes quicker. RT probe should still be fine @-10% I'd say. Not an expert with the Amazon, yet, but telling from previous experience as well as my technical understanding of what I saw on/in/at my Amazon so far


----------



## RDC8

Hasi said:


> Problem is when you just pull more air the beans dry out more and may adopt unwanted flavours (baked, dry, flat). Therefore, it's vital to reduce roast temp AND control ROR with the airflow
> 
> MM is one of the most difficult coffees you could roast, so easy to under-/overdo! That's why reducing bean mass (slightly!) can help to apply changes quicker. RT probe should still be fine @-10% I'd say. Not an expert with the Amazon, yet, but telling from previous experience as well as my technical understanding of what I saw on/in/at my Amazon so far


All true. It really comes down to experimenting by changing one variable at a time, keeping a roast log, and then tasting the results. @scottybourn did you record the temperatures as the roast progressed? At what temp did 1st crack start?


----------



## scottybourn

RDC8 said:


> All true. It really comes down to experimenting by changing one variable at a time, keeping a roast log, and then tasting the results. @scottybourn did you record the temperatures as the roast progressed? At what temp did 1st crack start?


My first batch after warm up was 186 (209)

Sec Batch :175 (199)

both taste good just the sec batch has more oil coming out over the last 2 days


----------



## Stevebee

RDC8 said:


> If you are wanting to slow down the ROR then you need to increase air-flow through the drum (ie sucking out more of the hot air!). This can be achieved by opening the damper for the roast chamber and/or closing the cooling air damper.
> 
> From my experience, a smaller bean mass progresses a lot faster, so I would suggest you stay with the 1kg charge. Also, with a smaller bean mass the heat probe may not be fully immersed in the beans therefore your temp readings wont be accurate.
> 
> Maybe stick to a more conventional bean, rather than MM, until you get used to controlling the ROR.
> 
> Best of luck


The Monsooned Malabar bean is a much less dense bean, about 30% less, so 1kg will occupy 30% more room than a standard bean. A smaller charge of 700g will use the same volume as a std 1kg of other beans so contact with probes will not be any different. It does need less heat over the roast and can run away between first and second if you dont get the ror right coming into first.Its easy to fly through second and end up near Starbucks. So - be brave!


----------



## Batian

I (hope) successfully fitted the replacement air temp probe this morning.

I test ran the roaster this afternoon but I have yet to do the seasoning roast.

No load voltage was 243.1, dropping to 231/ 233 on start up.

The roaster was drawing 2279/2284W

The roast and air temp controllers are set at 195C and 240C respectivly.

By the time the air temp controller had recycled 2 times, the roast temp was 183C. At 3 recycles it was 188C. So I suppose that is normal?

Some observations from a basics mechanic and novice roaster.

Use a towel spread out to catch the hex bolts as you drop them...very likely on the refit. And they roll for yards on a floor.









You will need a couple of cable ties to replace the two that have to be cut--- they anchor the cables.

Forceps are handy with the above.

When anchoring the cables, be aware of the pulley belt---the probe cable naturally wants to sit very close or even touch the belt.

On reassembly I found that the rear panel parts did not meet up without some pushing etc. By chance I found that it became easier if I started replacing the hex bolts (loosely) from the bottom of each panel and working left to right and upwards, only tightening when all the bolts were in their holes.

Don't forget to replace the earth strap between the cyclone and the main chassis.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> No load voltage was 243.1, dropping to 231/ 233 on start up.


That's quite a big drop in voltage, you should normally expect around 5V. The reason for this is not a problem with the roaster, but potentially a problem with the electrics it's connected too e.g.

Thin cable on cheap extension lead

too long an extension lead

Poor electric installation to roasters location

In a sense the problem is resistance related, but not in the roaster. Somewhere approx 230W - 270W is being lost in the wiring to the roaster! I think that the IET limits for non lighting circuits are 5% when a sparky installs something. I'd advise you look at the supply to the roaster, I wouldn't be happy with a 10-12V drop.


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> The roaster was drawing 2279/2284W
> 
> The roast and air temp controllers are set at 195C and 240C respectivly.
> 
> By the time the air temp controller had recycled 2 times, the roast temp was 183C. At 3 recycles it was 188C. So I suppose that is normal?


Mine shows very similar numbers, also it appears to be pretty well sealed - maybe pulling more air reduces the difference? Maybe it's not even that important... what was your ambient temp?


----------



## Batian

Dave, Thanks. I put the figures up as I suspected something was not quite right....

The roaster was plugged direct to a ring main socket. The cable to that socket measures 10mm. It was replaced summer 2016.

At the time, apart from the immersion heater, all other high drain things were turned off, as per your advice.

There is a long history of low power to my and my neighbours houses. Over the years, complaints have been made and a man plugs a thingy into the socket for a week, then takes it away and shortly after we are told that we suffer from low power. Well, we know that. But nothing ever gets done.

Apparently we are on the end of a long line in a rural area.

For this reason I roast early mornings as a rule, when local demand is low.

An example would be trying to grill a steak on a Friday/Saturday night. The grill is a dull red and the steak just goes like rubber.

When using the Gene, on the same ring main but a different socket, the volt drop was usually 3/5v.

I will (hopefully) do the seasoning roast tomorrow morning and see what results I get then, it may not be as much as this afternoons drop, but I will expect a bigger drop than your suggested 5v.

It's part of the joys of living in the countryside!

Thanks for your observations and thoughts.

Hasi.

The ambient was initially 2C, rising to 10C as the roaster warmed the place up.


----------



## Batian

DavecUK said:


> In a sense the problem is resistance related, but not in the roaster. Somewhere approx 230W - 270W is being lost in the wiring to the roaster! I think that the IET limits for non lighting circuits are 5% when a sparky installs something. I'd advise you look at the supply to the roaster, I wouldn't be happy with a 10-12V drop.


Maths is not my strong subject. But given the recorded drop of between 10 and 12 volts, 5% of 243 volts is 12.15 volts, so that squeezes in to the IET limits (if Dave's thoughts are correct).

However, the power meter advises an accuracy of +/- 1.5% for volts and +/- 2% for watts. So that could make the figures worse or better. Knowing my luck it will be the former.

I will be consulting the estate sparky regarding Dave's concerns, but I suspect I will have to live with it until they develop the fields behind my house! (OPP granted, but unlikely in my lifetime)

Thanks again Dave for your concerns.


----------



## Batian

Today I did the seasoning roast plus a kilo of Brazilian supplied with the roaster and a kilo of natural Ethiopian Dijimah. I have had good results with the later in the Gene, so I know what it should taste like.

As expected the voltage behaved differently this morning.

Pre load was 243.7max fluctuating to (I think) 241.4

Under load, again fluctuating, but hovering around 235.4 mostly.

Ambient at start was 4C climbing to 13C after an hour or so.

Watts being drawn was interesting. At the start of the warm up it was 2284 but rose quickly to 2291. I dd not see it drop below this and it spent much of the time (when checked) 2299 > 2302.

All roasts were charged at between 185C and 188C on the Roast Temp.

The RT started rising at 2min 10secs, 2min 10 secs and 2 mins 38secs

The rate of rise over the 3 roasts was 4/5deg C per minute after the 4 minute mark.

I was pleased to see that all three roasts followed (within a tad) Dave's example on page 4 of his 'Quick Start' guide, until 1st crack. I did find the level of concentration and work required quite strenuous though!

A point of note with all roasts was that steam was coming from the rear of the roaster at between 3 and 4 minutes. I took the decision to open early the SD to 1cm, and then 2 cm at 4 minutes as per the instructions. I seemed to think I had read either in the notes or in these threads that it was the correct procedure?

With all three roasts first crack (apart from a few early pops) came at between 9. 52 (Brazilian) and 10.42 minutes(Brazilian) and 10.09 (E. Dijimah.

And that!s where the problems started!

With the seasoning roast I followed the guide for adjusting the smoke damper. The RT temperature kept rising and was quickly into 2nd crack. I dumped the roast at a dark and lightly oiled state. .

So with this in mind, with the second Brazilian roast I started opening at what I thought was earler and opened to 6cm. The RT temperature still kept rising. I dumped the roast at 12min 20secs. I suspect 2nd Crack may have started, roast colour is medium dark, no oiling as yet, but I suspect it will.

So, encouraged I tried the Dijimah.

It followed pretty much the path of Dave's example. And at 1st Crack I again tried to drop the temperature by opening SD to 6cm ....it still kept rising.

I could hear the crack subsiding, the trier samples were looking OK so I dumped it at 12min 27secs. I suspect it may have touched 2nd crack, but no oiling at present and a lighter medium to medium dark colour.

The Dijimah lost 16.8% and the second Brazilian 17.1%.

I am reasonably happy with how things went with this first session. I knew I was in for a busy stressful time------ and I was not disappointed!

So now, how, when I am keeping control of the roast so nicely to 1st crack, (and it is following Dave's example) am I losing it so quickly?

More manuals/guides reading required, yes, along with some pointers please.

The volts and watts issue do not seem to be a problem...or is it?


----------



## Blackbully

He has arrived









it is doable to lift it upstairs with a man and a woman









no elevator in our apartment.

to night I will assemble, and check if I got all the documentation

roasting wil be an other day


----------



## johnealey

@Batian I struggled with runaway roasts after first crack until moved my CA damper in to 3 which gave quite a bit more control with the SD after first crack. The other bit fo sage advice given by another owner was to drop both the roast temp set point and the Air temp set point from what they were supplied with to (in my case) 180 for Roast and 220 for air(could go lower never felt needed to though as the roast PID kicks out way before the air one would). I say in my case as most beans I roast go to first crack at around the 176-178 range taken from the roast PID display and once hit the roast will still rise but not being "pushed" by the heater allows quite a bit more time after first crack to develop.

You may want to try one of the above at a time so as not to swamp your learning bearing in mind that pulling huge amounts of air through the smoke damper will have an effect on flavour but may help you to home in on your ideal roast.

Hope of help and keep at it ( https://www.smallbatchroasting.co.uk/ if not found already, could be a source of some cheaper practice bean as well as better quality ones as well, currently enjoying their Zimbabwe, Cuban Serrano and Costa Rica Aquiares)

John


----------



## Hasi

very much my latest experience!

ROR was a-okay until 1st crack but kept rising more than needed, had to have SD pretty much open all the way (7-8) and CA almost closed (3-1) from 1st crack onwards. Still too much power to keep control.

I will try one more later tonight where I'll switch off the heat elements at the beginning of 1st crack. I feel the sheer mass of both roaster and beans will very likely carry me through to the end of the roast.

One more consideration would be the power mod, especially when ambient temperatures rise again?

edit: only saw John's post after I sent mine... yea, obviously reducing temps on the controllers could help at that stage. Do you do this on the fly or is it your general settings you also use for warm-ups?


----------



## Hasi

@DavecUK: is it possible to read data from the PT100 probes (using a Phidget and bridge maybe) without disturbing the controller measurements?

Background to my question is the rather strange output the K-type probe delivers. Currently I'm seeing the following values (second cycle in warm-up):

RT=195C

AT=222C

Analog~236C

K-type=242.9C (Voltcraft K204 and Artisan)

The offset is constant (no lag involved).

Still, I can't really use the K-type reading to record the roast because it responds so much differently to any damper changes.


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> @DavecUK: is it possible to read data from the PT100 probes (using a Phidget and bridge maybe) without disturbing the controller measurements?
> 
> Background to my question is the rather strange output the K-type probe delivers


.

I really don't know, probably not....



Hasi said:


> Currently I'm seeing the following values (second cycle in warm-up):
> 
> RT=195C
> 
> AT=222C
> 
> Analog~236C
> 
> K-type=242.9C (Voltcraft K204 and Artisan)
> 
> The offset is constant (no lag involved).


That all looks quite good, the K type seems a bit high, but depends on your meter and all the readings depend on probe placement, airflow, leakiness of the roaster..........each one has it's own individual personality.



Hasi said:


> Still, I can't really use the K-type reading to record the roast because it responds so much differently to any damper changes.


Possibly not it is down to the variances in airflow....the K type was there because it could be fitted, I was thinking that possibly for those adventurous with electronics, might find it handy to swap it's position with the control (bean mass ) probe....really it's just to give people the option and also enable temperature measurements in different parts of the drum.


----------



## Batian

johnealey said:


> @Batian I struggled with runaway roasts after first crack until moved my CA damper in to 3 which gave quite a bit more control with the SD after first crack. r Zimbabwe, Cuban Serrano and Costa Rica Aquiares)
> 
> John


Thank you for your input.

I am aware of Small batch Roasters and have marked off a couple of cheapies to buy in if the BB freebies and some odds and ends I have in stock run out.

I used the Dijimah today as I bought 5kg (bargain basement) at less than £5 a kg inc post.It is actually quite nice, but as a 2016 crop, it needs using. So it will not break my heart if I smoke it in the Amazon!

I have re read again Daves notes and I will try opening the CA damper to 50%. If that does not work I will try your settings drop.

Of which, dropping the RT from 195 to 180 is a BIG jump. Did you do it in stages?


----------



## johnealey

@Batian , Went straight to 180 after looking back through all of my roast logs and realising that 1st Crack with only 2 exception in 180 kilos occurred pre this point and yet temp still rising post heater turn off at an acceptable rate for the roast level am aiming for, for those beans.

All beans react differently, as do roasters, so what worked for me with a fair amount of roast data may not be directly transferable, just worked for me quite well and if nothing else another option to try.

John


----------



## Hasi

Thanks Dave!

I might give the reverse probe array a try, anytime soon.

In the meantime, John's controller settings brought me in the ballpark. Despite having read that small changes potentially have a big impact, I went for 180/230C max temps on those nameless brazilian beans that came with the roaster. Did my 5th roast that looked like this:

Ambient temp: 15.9C

235V dropping to 226V (heat switch on)

around 2150W

Charge @181/230C - SD=0, CA=4 (fully open didn't work at all, before)

1m: 149/181C

2m: 144/169C

TP @2:26 143/166C

3m: 145/166C

4m: 147/168 - SD=1

5m: 151/174C

6m: 155/178C

7m: 158/181C

8m: 162/186C

9m: 166/190C

10m: 171/194C

FCs @10:36 173/198C

11m: 175/201C - SD=3

12m: 181/209C

FCe @12:20 184/211C

SCs @12:50 188/211C

dumped @ 13:00

1kg in, 825g out =-17.5%

consistent roast, very few divots and no scorching. I'll start from here by further opening SD when 1st crack arrives. Looking forward to trying the latest roast and get going soon again!

Tomorrow I'm off to buy my first bag...!


----------



## Batian

Batian said:


> Today I did the seasoning roast plus a kilo of Brazilian supplied with the roaster and a kilo of natural Ethiopian Dijimah. I have had good results with the later in the Gene, so I know what it should taste like.


I have just checked the above first attempts with the Amazon.

It is 68 hours (not quite 3 days) post roast.

There is no oiling on either batch. So maybe they did not touch second crack as I thought?

I will taste them next Tuesday---7 days post roast.


----------



## Hasi

For the first couple roasts I messed up RoR towards the end so that FC directly went into SC. With totally different acoustic parameters to the Quest, it took me a while to realise I'm in SC, already









So, obviously beans got oily after a few days... the compost heap was happy to receive them.


----------



## Blackbully

Today I did my first 2 batches with the roaster,










the first went a bit fast, and turned out oily ( had to bin it )

the second went went a lot better made a few changes here.

First batch yellow bourbon

volt= 243 ( when roasting 239v )

room temp 13c

roaster wattage, I think 2950 ( need to get an other unit I think, strange numbers, wattage hi shows above 4kw )

charge : 173/235 /SD0 /CA fully open

1 - 143/186

2 - 143 /175

3 - 146 /177 SD 1cm

4 - 149 / 181 SD 2cm

5 - 154 / 187 beans got yellow

6 - 160 / 191

7 - 165 / 197

8 - 170 / 203

9 - 174 / 211

9:24 - fc 176 / 215

10 - 179 / 219 SD4

11 - 186 / 226 (beans are getting up 7c a min ?)

I started at 11:20 to pull some beans, a lot of smoke, put them back (fc turnd in to sc back to back )

i dropt them before 12 min but a lot of oil and smoke ( had to keep an eye on it ) so I did not write down the temperature










I turnd the heater of, and waited a few minutes

made 2 big changes on the roaster

RT from 195 to 190 and AT from 240 to 235(don't know if it was necessary)

roast 2

charge at 195/215 SD0

1 - 160/178

2 - 154/165

3 - 155/165 SD1

4 - 157/171 (4:30 SD4 ( want to slow down the roast a bit and I think I need to start that now)

5 - 160/176

6 - 163/181

7 - 167/187 (7:30 SD5)

8 - 171/192

9 - 174/198 (9:40 bt 177 (had fc here first try)SD7)

10 - 179/206 (10:30 bt182 fc )

11 - 184/214 (11:30 SD MAX )

12 - 190/224 (it feels like going to the end of first crack still popping ) but I dumped it to cool now.

Not waisting my second try 










all nice smooth beans, I think they are ok. Try them in a few days

1kg green gave me 840grams

12min feels a bit to fast, next roast, what should I try?

Some one any suggestions?


----------



## Hasi

Nice!

You could

- try to close the CA a bit, increasing airflow and therefore effect of SD

- Drop beans at a lower temp

- reduce RTmax slightly more

- turn off heat around FCS (I'm doing this now as it helps a lot with extending development time - AT serves as my indicator whether it's hot enough to carry me all the way through to the end with a mild RoR)

Good luck!


----------



## Blackbully

Today I tasted some of my first drinkable roast. I am pleasantly surprised, same beans, same amount, but a lot stronger flavor. I have roasted a few kilo of these beans on the genecafe. And used to put in a bit more grams to get a decent coffee, this roast gave me much more flavor than I am used to.

And it will only get better


----------



## scottybourn




----------



## scottybourn

[/QUOTE]


----------



## Hasi

scottybourn said:


>


Thanks a lot!

At around 400quid and above, regular PT100 USB loggers like the NI 9162 cost a little (too) much IMHO, the only cheap solution Artisan would support (=MyPCLab, was half the price of the NI) has been discontinued. But the video you've posted shows that it works, that at least is good news


----------



## Hasi

I found some MyPCLab offers on eWay, some even being around 115EUR (shipping from Italy for another 25er).

Let's see how it goes... I understand PT100 probes create a temp specific resistance. So maybe the reading might be totally off when I conntect an additional device. But then again, if data is not being collected at all times (depending on Artisan settings), there might be a chance to get it right. Adventure!


----------



## Batian

Hasi,

Have you seen this ?

https://github.com/artisan-roaster-scope/artisan

Artisan supports Yocto, a cheap (er) alternative.


----------



## Hasi

Yep, I based my search on this link







and I was leaning very much towards the Yocto module.

Until I came across the offer that I took, that is. (https://www.ebay.at/itm/MYPCLAB-myPCLab-USB-Data-logger-2-canali-analogici-1-ingresso-digitale-nel/192406034947?hash=item2ccc4b1a03:g:F5wAAOSwI59aPO1f)

The Yocto-PT100 is a single input device, so two needed, and they're currently asking CHF 90.31 each. Enclosure and cable not included.

So, MyPCLab came a bit cheaper in my case









The downside being that MyPCLab is a discontinued product. Support and drivers might become an issue one day. My PC setup, though, is old as well - still running WinXP on that 10yr old machine


----------



## Batian

See Yocto website. http://www.yoctopuce.com

You will see the Yoctothermocouple comes with 2 inputs.

From Artisan, a 4 input is also available?.?.

Or is it to late?

Best,


----------



## Hasi

The Yocto Thermocouple will not accept RTD signals. You'll need the Yocto PT100 to do just that.

The big difference between thermocouples (K-type and similar) and resistance temperature detectors (PT100, PT1000) is the measured variable: thermocouples make use of the thermoelectric effect and therefore create a (low) voltage between two different metals. RTDs measure the different resistances in one metal at different temperatures, therefore needing live input current.

Having said that, I'm in doubt my idea of a simple connexion to the existing RTD probes is going to work out fine. Resistance must be different if something else is supplying additional current... it might even blow the probe...

If it fails, I'd have look into a bigger operation.

- I'd keep one controller as a backup emergency power switch (connecting to a PT100 probe inserted to where the K-type is located by default), set to 240-250C but tbd

- replace existing PT100s with K-types and connect to Phidget 1018_2

- wire in an SSR module enabling Artisan to take control over the heat element (and act as the controllers)

- program Artisan accordingly

Ok, that'll do it for any kind of warranty, I get that. So maybe next year









PS: the MyPCLab would either go on sale or make its way to my Quest in exchange for K-types

PPS: I'm quite sure Dave reads along with a certain grin of wisdom in his face... thinking to himself something like 'not gonna work either way'


----------



## Hasi

Just realised there are 2-in-1 RTD probes... party time!

(https://www.globalspec.com/ds/320/areaspec/element_num_double)


----------



## Batian

Well, I have a Yoctothermocouple. It has two inputs. One input is definitely working with the BB supplied and Yocto supplied K types and the Android app 'Coffee Roaster Pro' in "dummy run" trials.

I will not be trying it 'live' for several months, until a time when I feel I could manage the Amazon in my sleep!

I have also (just) set it up in Windows 10. The Windows notifications say it is set up, and I am confident that if I followed the Artisan instruction re configuration of the Yoctothermocouple , it would also work. Artisan does say (earlier link above) that the Yoctothermocouple and the PT 100 both work with Artisan.

Am I missing something in those instructions? Being an electronics lightweight....... I survive by 'plug and play' !?


----------



## Hasi

You are talking about connecting to the K-type probe (yellow plug). Been there, done that. It just gives me uninterpretable readings. I'd be very happy to reading about your experience with the setup as is.

Switching its position with the PT100 (RT) probe leaves us with a useless RT controller.

I am trying to write in Artisan the exact values from both RT and AT controllers.

As the controllers do not feature an output signal (AFAIK and no Ewelly manuals to be found), I figured I need to grab the input signal from the PT100 probes they're connected to (or their exact location). Hence the MyPCLab purchase. Now I'm left with fitting dual PT100 probes so I can connect Artisan AND the controllers at once.


----------



## Batian

I think I now understand what you are doing. Would the Yoctothermocouple not do the same and with the same problems?

How is this for a 'Boy Scout' idea?

Could you connect the reading device to the probes where the probe wires enter the Ewelly, but using a 'one way gate' (like a diode?) to prevent either or both being effected by each others connection and enabling both the Ewelly and the device to give consistent readings?

Just a pie in the sky thought!


----------



## Batian

Hasi said:


> no Ewelly manuals to be found),


Is this any good?

http://www.eliweli.com/en/uploads/upload_files/file/20131214143941196.pdf


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> Is this any good?
> 
> http://www.eliweli.com/en/uploads/upload_files/file/20131214143941196.pdf


It's quite good Chinglish. Great find!

Thank you, I've just saved it to disk - just in case... although it proves that these controllers do not feature an output signal. The wiring diagram is also placed on the internal cover of the units, at least it's identical









Your boy scout idea won't work, unfortunately, because with RTD probes you need to cycle a defined low current from meter or controller through the probe and back into the respective device. Unless you're a quantum genius you cannot tell an electron where to go or read its origin... so I believe any meter would return silly values when just connected additionally.

Good news is that at BB they're looking into solving the roast logging connectivity issue. Let's see what they come up with


----------



## Batian

Hasi,

If it helps.....

Much earlier in this thread a forum member offered help with Chinese to English translation. DaveC pointed out that much of what was required was technical, it may not have been to useful.

But you never know........


----------



## Blackbully

I have done 7kg total now in 3 days.

Day 1 (learning my roaster)

roast 1 fc 176c bt time 9.25

roast 2 fc 183c bt time 10.30

day 2 (some airflow changes, and lowering max heat )

roast 1 fc 171c time 10.50

roast 2 fc 178c time 10.45

day 3 (different beans, but I think I "know" how it works)

roast 1 fc 167c time 9.40

roast 2 fc 177c time 9.40

Roast 3 fc 176c time 11.10 (more airflow to change total roasting from 12.40 to above 13 minutes (13.30 now )

I preheat 25 minutes, the heating element have switched of 2 times by than.

First roast : RT 170/175 AT 235/242 analog temp 215/225

wy is my first roast FC 7c/10c lower than my second roast, FC ?

Do I need to preheat more? Is it normal?


----------



## Batian

DavecUK

I have a new Ewelly on its way from BB to replace (what I hope is) a faulty Air Temp controller..

Will the safety setting of 256C be in place?

Thanks.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> DavecUK
> 
> I have a new Ewelly on its way from BB to replace (what I hope is) a faulty Air Temp controller..
> 
> Will the safety setting of 256C be in place?
> 
> Thanks.


I hope not, I set it at 230 or 235C (I can't remember without looking), but it's something you should fully check all

the settings on...they should be in the documentation I wrote.


----------



## Batian

DavecUK said:


> I hope not, I set it at 230 or 235C (I can't remember without looking), but it's something you should fully check all
> 
> the settings on...they should be in the documentation I wrote.


Thank you for the reply.

In your Quick Start Guide, page 8, highlighted box top right,

" The roaster has the Roasting Temp and Air Temp controller limits set to 221C and 256C respectively."

(and so on....)

I am happy with how to check and change the preset working temps (AT 240C and RT 195C) , but wanted to know and make sure that the top limit on the replacement Ewelly is correctly set.

Your further advice please.

Thanks again!


----------



## PaulL

Blackbully said:


> wy is my first roast FC 7c/10c lower than my second roast, FC ?
> 
> Do I need to preheat more? Is it normal?


I'm guessing that for your first roast the temps indicated are not stable because of the element switching whereas a second and subsequent roast would have consistent temps across the large thermal mass. However I personally use a 25m warm up as I single roast most the time without problem rather than roast back to back and think the difference is that I have the power mod.

With yours you have the see-saw effect of element switching with wastage when the elements are off and higher wattage when they are on. With mine I use 1500w for 25m and in a cold snap like we have now I would still only use 1600w and my desired drop temp arrives between 24m to 26m consistently throughout the year whether summer or winter.

DaveC once explained this to me like driving down the motorway at 70mph. In your case you put foot to the floor then lift off, foot to the floor, lift off, foot to the floor etc. In my case I depress partially and hold it there without having to adjust aggressively.

FWIW my 1st crack timings are consistently at 11:30 to 12:30 and it took me a while to slow the Dalian down as it can easily speed through a roast to 1st crack in only a few minutes if you let it, even with a maximum wattage of 2200 in my set up (due to voltage drop out in my workshop).

I've had mine now for 2 years and just reached 100kg so I have single roasted in all seasons through 2 full cycles of each to give you a bit of context.

I'm not posting any probe temps as I have the prototype DaveC originally reviewed and so my temps are not relevant to other Dalian users.


----------



## Hasi

PaulL said:


> With mine I use 1500w for 25m and in a cold snap like we have now I would still only use 1600w and my desired drop temp arrives between 24m to 26m consistently throughout the year whether summer or winter.
> 
> DaveC once explained this to me like driving down the motorway at 70mph. In your case you put foot to the floor then lift off, foot to the floor, lift off, foot to the floor etc. In my case I depress partially and hold it there without having to adjust aggressively.


That's actually really smart! I did the power mod lately and only used it during the roast.

How do you continue upon drop time? Do you boost up to 100%, 2kW,...?


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> Thank you for the reply.
> 
> In your Quick Start Guide, page 8, highlighted box top right,
> 
> " The roaster has the Roasting Temp and Air Temp controller limits set to 221C and 256C respectively."
> 
> (and so on....)
> 
> I am happy with how to check and change the preset working temps (AT 240C and RT 195C) , but wanted to know and make sure that the top limit on the replacement Ewelly is correctly set.
> 
> Your further advice please.
> 
> Thanks again!


The values you are quoting are the safety limits I defined within each controller and gave BB a set up document for the roaster. Hopefully they are printing the set up document out and including with the roaster, but the questions on here would indicate that perhaps this is not happening? It's the point at which I defined each controller to show an E2 error. Do not confuse these values with the ones that are done using the SET button!.

The quote below is appropriate for roasting temps. In my roaster I now have it set to 193 and 230 as good values for me. and it's done by using the set button. However it does appear that many roasters are showing 1st crack temps much lower than mine (don't know why)? As 1st on mine begins around 190 indicated. Sol if your 1st (not forced, which means around 11 minutes), then good guidance is to set the controller a few degrees above what's being indicated for 1st (make sure this is the second or third roast, NOT the first). Then simply use all the temps in the documentation, but adjust them by the amount your temp display on roaster temp differs from mine.

For air temp, have it at 240 or 230C if the lower temp doesn't interfere with roasting.



> "Air Temp", it's set to 240C and for "Roasting Temp" it's 195C. If you leave it for a few seconds, it reverts to the current temperature at that probe in the roaster.


----------



## PaulL

Hi Hasi, yes that's right, full wattage when I drop the beans then I will trim the power later during the roast to 1800w and then to 1500 when 1st crack has properly started and finally elements off 1 min after 1st. All of this because the mass of the Dalian means it reacts slower than small roasters and because when I first used it my struggle was to avoid scorching and over-roasting with too much heat after 1st. I also want to avoid too little heat of course and I want predictability of drop temps.


----------



## Batian

DavecUK said:


> The values you are quoting are the safety limits I defined within each controller and gave BB a set up document for the roaster. Hopefully they are printing the set up document out and including with the roaster, but the questions on here would indicate that perhaps this is not happening? It's the point at which I defined each controller to show an E2 error. Do not confuse these values with the ones that are done using the SET button!.


A separate Ewelly 'set up' document re safety values was not enclosed with the roaster at delivery.

I will go back to BB if it is not sent with the new Ewelly.

Just to clarify, if the safety limits have been set before the Ewelly is sent to me, will that become obvious if I try to exceed them when using the 'Set' and 'up' buttons?

It is becoming rather frustrating having a so called 'commercial roaster' that has now roasted a grand total of 5 kilos------ along with two breakdowns. Not to mention the loose components found on unpacking!

Thank you again.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> A separate Ewelly 'set up' document re safety values was not enclosed with the roaster at delivery.
> 
> I will go back to BB if it is not sent with the new Ewelly.
> 
> Just to clarify, if the safety limits have been set before the Ewelly is sent to me, will that become obvious if I try to exceed them when using the 'Set' and 'up' buttons?
> 
> It is becoming rather frustrating having a so called 'commercial roaster' that has now roasted a grand total of 5 kilos------ along with two breakdowns. Not to mention the loose components found on unpacking! I understand the frustration, sometimes breakdowns in things are unavoidable, it's been pretty reliable. However missing documentation or loose bits (whatever they were), are I agree not acceptable and I assume you have had a world with them about it.
> 
> Thank you again.


It's not a separate Ewelly document, it's the* "roaster predelivery checks guide"* I wrote for them and contains all the information to set up the roaster/controllers and check it.. A copy of the contents page is below. It's comprehensive and designed to ensure the minimum chance of a roaster shipped out without the correct bits, or not working correctly. I have reiterated my view that it's a useful document to send out and include with the other 3 pieces of documentation. Quick Start Guide (18 pages?), User Guide (48 pages of roasting gems), Setup guide (8 pages)

PRE-DELIVERY CHECKS 2


Unpacking 2

Parts inspection 2

External Inspection 2

Internal Inspection 2

Inspect the chaff collector 3

Inspect the cooling tray 3

Basic Electrical checks (do not plug roaster in) 3

Plug the roaster in to a power measuring meter 3

Check the Ewelly controller settings. 4

Check functions of roaster 4

Air controls setting 5

Now test the roaster heats 5. 2. 5


I must admit to being surprised the controller has broken, never heard of a controller breaking yet on any of the 70+ roasters sold. In fact the controllers are so lightly loaded (all current is switched through a separate relay) and they are in a totally cool location. I spoke to Jordan and he told me that the controller seems to be working as far as display and error codes, but is not switching on the heating element....I believe they have sent out another, but I am almost 100% sure it's a loose wire or a different problem and the controller is actually fine. Good luck with it though, I think uyou have been the exception rather than the rule and I hope you soon roast again and find it as reliable as I and others have.


----------



## Batian

I did not get a *"roaster predelivery checks guide"*

*
*I did get the three other guides: "Quick Start Guide (18 pages?), User Guide (48 pages of roasting gems), Setup guide (8 pages)"

Back to the Ewelly controller. From your post above, Jordan may have missed something, so I will go through the story for you to consider.

I started to warm the roaster in the prescribed manner at about 8am (best for electricity supply), the ambient was just under 0C. Prior to pushing the buttons I had checked the voltage at 245.2v. I then started getting the other bits and bobs together and then remembered I had not checked the power draw. This would have been less than 5 mins in. Flicking through the power meter I thought I had a fault with the meter---The roaster was running but it was only drawing something like 5w. I stood back and saw that the AT controller Ewelly was not lit (ie not as Jordan was saying???). The Heat button switch was also unlit. The Roast Temp was showing 18C. So I switched off the heater while I took stock. Drum and fan were working properly. I turned everything off finishing with the main power switch, and then went through the start up procedure again.

The AT controller was still unlit and the Heat button switch was also unlit.

I had to wait until 9am when I phoned Jordan. He asked me to check if power was going to the heater. I removed the plug, then removed the back, exposed the connection terminal stubs, plugged the machine back in, turned on the main power switch and the heater button, followed briefly by the fan button to check power was actually getting to the machine, and then used a multimeter to test across the heater connection terminals . There was no power to the heaters connection stubs.

I then shut everything down again, unplugged the machine and phoned Jordan back.

Jordan then asked me to check the Ewelley connections in case a connection had worked loose. The wires all stood the usual wiggling. I did not test with a meter..

Jordan told me not to phone back, unless I had found a loose connection, so I waited for further instructions from him.

By late afternoon ( I realised being a Monday he was likely to be busy) I decided to touch base to see what was happening. Jordan was unavailable so I left a brief message asking him to update me either by calling or email if that was easier.

I got no return message.

Jordan did say he was going to ping an email off to DaveC , so I hopped something would be in the post.

On the following day (Tuesday) I waited until the postie had delivered (late morning) and as there was nothing for me, I phoned Jordan back.

So just to recap:

AT Ewelly controller is not lighting up at all.

Heater switch is not illuminating when 'On.'

Testing with a multimeter across the connectors indicated no power to heater.

Pulley, Main Fan and Cooling tray switches are on and and working.

And a recap of the first fault. The AT sensor failed the first time the machine was switched on. It worked until a temperature of about 200C was reached and then AT controller Ewelly showed an E1 error.

Could these two faults be connected?

Thanks!


----------



## Hasi

with a multimeter at hand, you could look for the spot where the current gets cut:

- Does the switch work

- I believe to remember there's a fuse box inside, isn't it? It's got a transparent cover and is located at the lower left side behind the switch panel

PS: with pulley and fan on, the roaster should pull some 80W. So if you say it drew 5W, it was only lights on and no other operation.


----------



## Batian

Hasi said:


> PS: with pulley and fan on, the roaster should pull some 80W. So if you say it drew 5W, it was only lights on and no other operation.


You are probably right..

I was in 'minor but controlled panic/damage limitation mode' by then, but I remember 5W, but that could have been sometime after I had realised something was wrong and done some switching off!


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> So just to recap:
> 
> AT Ewelly controller is not lighting up at all.
> 
> Heater switch is not illuminating when 'On.'
> 
> Testing with a multimeter across the connectors indicated no power to heater.
> 
> Pulley, Main Fan and Cooling tray switches are on and and working.
> 
> And a recap of the first fault. The AT sensor failed the first time the machine was switched on. It worked until a temperature of about 200C was reached and then AT controller Ewelly showed an E1 error.
> 
> Could these two faults be connected?
> 
> Thanks!


The *E1 error* is a sensor short, but this can happen for many reasons....very odd that it happened at 200C??? If the Air temp is not working then the heating elements won't come on unless you wire the air temp controller out of circuit. *Both controllers have to send an ON signal for the heating element to switch on*, this way either on can switch heat off. It's the way I designed it. The reasoning was in an emergency, you could remove one controller from the circuit (basically bridging the connections that operate the relay) and it would work on the RT controller, or if the RT sensor went south, you could use the AT controller (again joining the connectors on the relay path). This would give you tremendous redundancy in a commercial setting without having to be down whilst waiting for a spare.

So the air temp controller offers information and protection for overheat if there is a fire or the other sensor registers wrong (sanity check), but the key reason I had 2 for no extra cost, if you have a living spare....but let's not tell Amazon that.

So your problem could be your not getting 2 on signals

As for the AT controller not lighting up....I accept they may not have warmed it up all the way to 200C, but they definitely would have seen the *AT* controller was working, not one you can miss when you eventually see the pre delivery checks.

So from your much more detailed information I think....the AT controller was working, the roaster warmed up then...

1. The controller went bad (your the first, genuinely). This initially caused an A1 error and later it failed completely

2. There is a wiring fault and a wire has come off somewhere, the fault might have even triggered the E1 code

3. There is a bad sensor or sensor wiring and a separate fault in the wiring (something came loose to the controller).

You can easily check the controller as there should be mains voltage going into it (check with a multimeter). *9 and 10 should have mains voltage* and you can ensure you get their position right from where the leads are for the sensor. If it has got mains voltage and the wires are not loose, then the controller is busted. If is *has not* got mains voltage, then you have a wiring fault (loose wire) before the controller. This wire will almost certainly trace back to the main switch.

Either 1 or 2 goes to the main relay (can't remember which way they wired it, but you can trace the wiring), I would have 1 going to the relay. The main relay handles are the amperage NOT the controllers, they switch the very low amperage side of the relay (but still full mains voltage)

If a controller goes south, connecting 1 and 2 together, should then keep that controller in the ON state, whether the controller is working or not. In this way you can run of the RT controller which is presumably working.

Just note that LOAD in that diagram will actually be the single high power relay that controls the heating elements and not the heating elements themselves.









All this wiring is behind the front panel, it's easily accessible and just 4 screws to remove....oh all at your own risk not mine.

Obviously if you try and measure voltage between 1 and 2 with the roaster on, that won't work and you will simply be trying to bridge the circuit for the relay to operate and the heating element might come on/meter might get damaged although it should live..as the currnt will only be a few 10s of millamps.

I think that's enough for now....but don't be unhappy with the roaster, you made an excellent choice and cannot buy better for the money....not even close!


----------



## Batian

Dave,

You mention A1 error. Unless I have entered a typo, I have not seen an A1 error????

Re "As for the AT controller not lighting up....I accept they may not have warmed it up all the way to 200C, but they definitely would have seen the RT controller was working, not one you can miss when you eventually see the pre delivery checks."

Prior to Monday the AT controller was lighting up and working normally, doing its self assessment checks and climbing as expected.

I will have a crack at checking the power to the controller tomorrow and report back.


----------



## Hasi

It's E1 for sure as there only seem to be two error codes ( E1 for 'whatever' and E2 for 'overheated') in the controllers.


----------



## Batian

I have checked the AT controller. There is 239.4V at 9 and 0.0V at 10.

This test was duplicated with the same test at the working RT Controller 239.0V at 9 and 0V at 10.

I tested between 9 and 10 and between 9 and 10 and the earth screw top right of box.

I tested both sides of the heater switch ---no power.

I could find no obviously loose connections by wiggling , but I did not pull the connectors of their 'spades'.

I will wait for DaveC's response before fitting the new controller should it arrive today..

I assume that the controller is a push in and out from behind the plate?

Thanks.


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> I tested both sides of the heater switch ---no power.


Did you check for resistance upon switching? Should go from ∞ to around 0.



Batian said:


> I assume that the controller is a push in and out from behind the plate?












On the dolphin-spangled blue bracket, push in where it tells you to and it will slide backwards until it comes off.

Controller then exits to the front.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> I have checked the AT controller. There is 239.4V at 9 and 0.0V at 10.
> 
> This test was duplicated with the same test at the working RT Controller 239.0V at 9 and 0V at 10.
> 
> I tested between 9 and 10 and between 9 and 10 and the earth screw top right of box.
> 
> I tested both sides of the heater switch ---no power.
> 
> I could find no obviously loose connections by wiggling , but I did not pull the connectors of their 'spades'.
> 
> I will wait for DaveC's response before fitting the new controller should it arrive today..
> 
> I assume that the controller is a push in and out from behind the plate?
> 
> Thanks.


The reason is that 10 must be on the neutral side and 9 on the live. Voltage of neutral to ground should be 0V (give or take some millivolts perhaps). If the controller isn't lighting up and you a good live neutral with voltage connected to it, then it must be bust...so you one the lucky prize and are the first person to get a bust controller.

I assume the other controller lights up and everything else on the roaster works as it should e.g. drum turns fan runs cooling tray arms spin, switches light up etc...I ask because just in case there is anything else not mentioned. If this is the case fitting the controller should solve all your problems. If you can't wait, then you can bridge 1 and 2 at the controller and you should be able to roast fine on the other controller.

If you use a resistance meter to double check where the controllers small internal relay is switched to....make sure the roaster is *unplugged*, otherwise your meter might not appreciate it.

As always, at your own risk, I might be wrong and you might blow yourself up....not down to me. Disclaimer, I am not a qualified electrician and hence know nothing, I am just lucky not to have killed myself ....yet


----------



## Batian

Hasi

I did not check the heat switch as you describe. I would need another hand or a multimeter fitted with clamps rather than probes.

DaveC

Yes, as earlier posts, all other functions are working.

Still no replacement controller. DPD have problems.

How I wish that on Monday I had roasted a couple of batches in the Gene, the good old reliable Gene....

I envisage being on supermarket beans by this time next week.


----------



## Batian

Better news.

DPD managed to deliver the new Ewelly controller at lunchtime.

It is now installed and thanks to A.Non emailing me the Pre Delivery Check Sheet, I have managed to install the settings. I did a test warm up to 80C and everything seems to be OK.

Many thanks to DaveC and, 'you know who you are'!


----------



## Paolo5

PaulL said:


> Hi Hasi, yes that's right, full wattage when I drop the beans then I will trim the power later during the roast to 1800w and then to 1500 when 1st crack has properly started and finally elements off 1 min after 1st. All of this because the mass of the Dalian means it reacts slower than small roasters and because when I first used it my struggle was to avoid scorching and over-roasting with too much heat after 1st. I also want to avoid too little heat of course and I want predictability of drop temps.


Hi Paul,

I have done the power control modification on my Dalian over a year ago now. I use the controller for each roast but... to date, only when 1st crack has started. It works really well this way.

I would like to know more about how you use your controller..

Have you marked the 1800W and 1500W points on the roaster around the controller's knob so that you know when the heaters are drawing the desired amount of power?

Do you move the controlling air slides at all when roasting with the power controller? If not, what settings do you leave the slides at?

It would be great to see one of your typical roasting charts showing settings.

Paolo


----------



## Hasi

PaulL said:


> Hi Hasi, yes that's right, full wattage when I drop the beans then I will trim the power later during the roast to 1800w and then to 1500 when 1st crack has properly started and finally elements off 1 min after 1st. All of this because the mass of the Dalian means it reacts slower than small roasters and because when I first used it my struggle was to avoid scorching and over-roasting with too much heat after 1st. I also want to avoid too little heat of course and I want predictability of drop temps.


Somehow missed this post...

Thanks a lot Paul, I will def give it a go next time I brown some greens









I have marked the 1000W position with a paint stick, but as input levels can vary for external reasons, the dot is forgivingly big


----------



## PaulL

I'll work out how to upload a roast chart and pics as this isn't a strength of mine. No I didn't mark the dial as there was no need, I have used the Maplins plug (DaveC has previously pointed to) for years. It's in my line of sight so throughout warm up I'm noting temps at 5m intervals and frequently looking at the plug, sometimes voltage fluctuations mean you need to adjust to the watts you want. Then when roasting I'm noting temps and again monitoring wattage at 1 min intervals, when I adjust wattage I'm looking at the plug.

I keep the CA damper fully open and find no need to close it, I begin a roast with SD at 30mm (no 2) and typically open another 10mm from time to time as the roast progresses, by 1st crack I might have SD at 60mm or 70mm and is guided by the rate of rise and temps I'm seeing.

Now I'm not saying that I have cracked the formula because I believe that DaveC and many of you may well get better results than I do. So when I do put up a log constructive criticism is welcome!

What I do know is that for my own personal needs, I found a method for repeatable predictable roasting with little variation between our UK seasons where my roasts don't scorch or run away, nor do they stall or under-roast and which allows me to single roast as 1kg batches are a lot if you are not selling or making a lot of drinks for friends or family.


----------



## PaulL

Hopefully this works, remember the actual temps won't be relevant to you so treat this as an example of approach and adjustments (and perhaps roast log layout)

  

And you can see the top of the plug monitor over the cooling tray hence when roasting I sit at the angle this photo is taken from

  

Here's the power mod switch which I therefore just have to reach rather than look at


----------



## Paolo5

Thanks for that Paul.

It just adds meaning to that old addage about there being "more than one way to skin a cat".

My power meter instructions specify that my unit is for measuring/checking only, so I think that I will calibrate a few lines radial to the power control knob that equate to a few wattage settings... and try that. The electricity supply to my house is very stable at 2500W (+or- 10W) and 235volts (+or- 5 volts).

My best results for a 1kg load are achieved when I start with both rods set at 5cm out. Once the turn-around temperature has been reached and a new sample minute has elapsed, I try to keep the ROR at around 6C for each minute (1C for each 10 seconds). To achieve this, I push the CA rod inwards in small increments when the ROR exceeds 6C per minute.

Once 1st crack gets under way, I use the power controller to reduce the intensity of the heating element...again trying to contain the ROR to 6C per minute. I also push the CA rod in to help...and pull out the SD rod slightly as well.

I have been getting fabulous results using this method.

Very happy with this roaster!


----------



## Hasi

Interesting, thank you Paolo and PaulL for these insights!

It really seems everybody has their own unique 'style' of operation - thanks to the many options this lovely machine provides









@PaulL: nice logging template of yours!


----------



## PaulL

Hi Paolo, I would be interested to see one of your roast logs too. I have thought about applying more heat then trying to remove it more aggressively later in the roast but what stopped me was the speed of the Dalian (it's not hard to achieve 1st crack in 6 to 8 minutes, okay for world championships but I don't want to drink it!) and controlling scorching after 1st crack. I am going to try your approach though.


----------



## Hasi

With the power mod, roasting in the Dalian Amazon becomes a bit more of a Quest M3-ish experience.

I did the mod rather early on and it helped a lot with the transition from one machine to the other. Also retracing my old profiles (for similar outcome) is easier to do, when it's not all about pulling air. I have kept the Quest as my sample roaster (gonna fire it up tomorrow to roast four different Panamaian samples







). So, with an understanding of options and limitations of both machines, I'm sure to waste less beans in future profiling.


----------



## Hoggr20

Very excited to say we are soon to be a Dalian owner. After much research and some great advise from DavecUK we have taken the to purchase the Dalian. My wife and I are complete novices when it comes to roasting so looking forward to the journey to become some what decent home roasters. We cannot wait until Friday when delivery is scheduled for. Thanks to everyone for your advise. This forum feed in particular has been very informative.


----------



## johnealey

Another convert to the cause









John


----------



## Dotix

New member joining the club









Thank you Dave for the effort on evaluating and improving this roaster!

It really paid off - after 20+ roasts I can say it is a great machine.


----------



## Batian

@DavecUK

Please could you recommend a suitable brand of high temp lithium grease, suitable for lubricating the rear bearing, preferably in a 3oz cartridge.

I have only been able to find grease that is rated -20C to 120C , or is this suitable?

Thank you.


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> @DavecUK
> 
> Please could you recommend a suitable brand of high temp lithium grease, suitable for lubricating the rear bearing, preferably in a 3oz cartridge.
> 
> I have only been able to find grease that is rated -20C to 120C , or is this suitable?
> 
> Thank you.


I've researched quite a bit recently, then ordered a cartridge of Berutemp 500 T 2 (https://www.bechem.de/en/lubricants/berutemp-500-t-2-2.html stable up to 260C) costs a fortune but we need the food safety certificate behind it


----------



## PaulL

How did you both know you needed something or is this a preventative maintenance routine?


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> @DavecUK
> 
> Please could you recommend a suitable brand of high temp lithium grease, suitable for lubricating the rear bearing, preferably in a 3oz cartridge.
> 
> I have only been able to find grease that is rated -20C to 120C , or is this suitable?
> 
> Thank you.


It's partly about degradation, drop point and rotational speed. You can actually use Molybdenum Disulphide based greases or silicone based.

LPS M70214 Thermaplex Hi-Temp Bearing Grease would probably work OK, it's good up to 170C and the bearing probably gets about as hot as that....

or

Molykote 44 would be a good choice, that's good to 200C+

There are a few options you can go for....you can bet what the Chinese put in there won't be as good as what you put in. Remember the drop point is the point at which the grease liquifies, the temperature range partly defines the life of the grease and protection it offers....a roaster is a very slow moving bearing, hence the loadings are much less than a fast bearing supporting a heavy load.

P.S. That bearing and it's grease cannot impinge on the beans in the drum, so I personally don't worry about it being food safe....the front self lubricating bush is a different matter though!

* Have a scout about and report back on what you think would be best...then we can share the knowledge. In fairness I had some high temp lubes of my fathers in storage and used one of those.*


----------



## Batian

PaulL said:


> How did you both know you needed something or is this a preventative maintenance routine?


This is following the maintenance guide issued with the machine and written by davecuk.


----------



## Hasi

I could actually hear a difference in drum rotation sound


----------



## Ted_Kent

Finally around a year after picking my roaster up I moved it into its home (planning permission took ages and the build took longer than expected)

Yet to throw beans into it as I am awaiting delivery of some fire extinguishers, gloves etc etc. Plus re visiting the manual to get up to speed again.

Point to note, the roaster is not plugged into the extension lead, only the halogen lamp. The roaster has a seperate feed from the fuse box tucked just out of shot.


----------



## Ted_Kent

Sorry for the sideways pictures, using the app and I forgot about this quirk.


----------



## MildredM

Looks so slick, ***** and span! Congrats on completing your project


----------



## Hasi

AWWW that's fab!!

And so spacious!

Congrats mate and ave fun firing her up in there


----------



## DavecUK

Looks great Ted


----------



## Batian

On the grease hunt.

I am not doing to well in finding anything suitable in 3oz cartridges. ( I have a 3oz gun).

However this one readily available on fleabay may fit the need.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3x-LITHIUM-GREASE-EP2-MULTI-PURPOSE-HIGH-TEMPERATURE-400g-CARTRIDGE-MM/172177381182?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649

I contacted the seller and he advised me that it was good for 190C.

Here is the bumph from the maker:

https://www.mymesra.com.my/[email protected]_EPI.aspx

Molykote would seem a better alternative, but so far I have only found it in pots or tubes. This would mean buying a new (non cartridge) fill-able gun.

Anyone else got any suggestions?


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> On the grease hunt.
> 
> I am not doing to well in finding anything suitable in 3oz cartridges. ( I have a 3oz gun).
> 
> However this one readily available on fleabay may fit the need.
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3x-LITHIUM-GREASE-EP2-MULTI-PURPOSE-HIGH-TEMPERATURE-400g-CARTRIDGE-MM/172177381182?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
> 
> I contacted the seller and he advised me that it was good for 190C.
> 
> Here is the bumph from the maker:
> 
> https://www.mymesra.com.my/[email protected]_EPI.aspx
> 
> Molykote would seem a better alternative, but so far I have only found it in pots or tubes. This would mean buying a new (non cartridge) fill-able gun.
> 
> Anyone else got any suggestions?


Have you checked mine above?


----------



## Batian

Hasi said:


> Have you checked mine above?


Yes. But in view of davecuk's comment (above) about not needing food safe safe grease on the rear bearing, I seek a cheaper alternative!


----------



## Hasi

Batian said:


> Yes. But in view of davecuk's comment (above) about not needing food safe safe grease on the rear bearing, I seek a cheaper alternative!




Forgot to mention that last year I've tried with another industrial heat resistant grease (can't recall specs as the press it was in had been borrowed) and found it would release unpleasant odours during warm-up. Therefore my research!

how about the front bearing?

also temperature-wise? does it get hotter due to being enclosed in the front plate?


----------



## Batian

@Hasi.

Re front bearing. If you mean the bush type thingy that is contained behind the copper dome, I am following @DavecUK's advice in the manual and have bought his suggested grease.

CG90 General Purpose Clear Grease +PTFE H1 Food Grade. Cheap and readily available from many fleabay sellers!


----------



## Batian

Will this get on to a grease nipple.

The seller gave a non- committal answer.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/392003394947?ul_noapp=true

If it will, a tube of Molykote would be quids in!


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> how about the front bearing?
> 
> also temperature-wise? does it get hotter due to being enclosed in the front plate?


I use an old small tecalemit vintage grease gun (it's a sort of one handed cylinder you just push at the nipple), I am sure you can still buy similar today.

I used to recommend Action Can lubricants specifically CG90 or a dry lube version. Both used to be H1 food grade. The Action Can company was purchased a few years ago (2016) and it appears that they have kept the same product names but changed the formulation. The dry lube has disappeared and CG90 is no longer stated to be food grade. So I can no longer recommend them.

Actioncan do do a food grade H1 lubricant (AC90) and a dry lube PTFE food grade that used to be to a higher temperature I think 230 or 250C I was too tight to buy both so settled on the cheaper CG90 which has worked fine. The company was purchased back in 2016, but apparently the forumation of products has not changed. Unfortunately the web site and photos don't show the certifications on the products (low resolution) and I can see the printing has changed a little and the certification body has changed. I contacted them this morning and they are sending me some tech details as fortunately a previous tech employee from the old company still remains and has confirmed to me that CG90 has not changed formulation. I also away to hear about dry lube and they are actually going to send me a sample.

https://www.actioncan.com/product/ptfe/

https://www.actioncan.com/product/cg-90/

I always liked the idea of the dry lube better as I felt it was thermally more stable, but it was a tad more expensive. Remember my recommendation for use is spray a tiny amount onto a surface for CG90, then pick it up with a cotton bud and simply wipe a very thin film on the bush cup at the front. The dry lube I will be testing, but I intend to do the smallest spray into the cup and wipe away any excess from the face and inside...

I can't know the exact temperature of the front plate, but it should be OK, as with all these things you have to take a judgment.

an alternative is Molykote®P-1900 Food Grade Assembly Paste

https://www.ellsworth.com/globalassets/literature-library/manufacturer/dow-corning/dow-corning-brochure-molykote-industrial-lubricants.pdf

https://www.ellsworth.com/globalassets/literature-library/manufacturer/dow-corning/dow-corning-brochure-molykote-industrial-lubricants.pdf


----------



## Batian

Thanks for the work above.

Here is what I bought last week....note bottom of can. (eBay image)


----------



## WEJ

Hi @Ted_Kent, can I ask where you got the flexible flue from?

Thanks!


----------



## DavecUK

WEJ said:


> Hi @Ted_Kent, can I ask where you got the flexible flue from?
> 
> Thanks!


Please don't let it be the original flue or the same diameter as the original flue!


----------



## Ted_Kent

DavecUK said:


> Please don't let it be the original flue or the same diameter as the original flue!


It is original, have I missed a vital post or instruction manual page?


----------



## Hasi

Ted_Kent said:


> It is original, have I missed a vital post or instruction manual page?


Yes, you need to bin it by yesterday.

tbh, though... I also still have it on - BUT: it's connected to a ventilation system that drags more air than the fan up the cyclone.

The problem with rippled hoses is internal turbulence and therefore resistance, slowing down airflow. Every bend adds to that so it becomes very inefficient.

Just to give you an example: a 90deg knee has as much impact on aerodynamics as a 6m straight pipe of the same diameter.


----------



## Ted_Kent

Hasi said:


> Yes, you need to bin it by yesterday.
> 
> tbh, though... I also still have it on - BUT: it's connected to a ventilation system that drags more air than the fan up the cyclone.
> 
> The problem with rippled hoses is internal turbulence and therefore resistance, slowing down airflow. Every bend adds to that so it becomes very inefficient.
> 
> Just to give you an example: a 90deg knee has as much impact on aerodynamics as a 6m straight pipe of the same diameter.


Ah I see.

I have recently used some semi flexible aluminium hose for another project, that is ridge less so I imagine it will be much better.

If the supplied hose didn't have the ridges then I guess it would be fine with it's original diameter or should I be looking to go bigger?

I am searching back on this topic now to see if I can find a post ref this, I assume it's been mentioned here?


----------



## DavecUK

Go larger diameter....at least this and shorter if possible. Obviously you never came to my training session, or at least I didn't train you









https://www.wickes.co.uk/Manrose-Aluminium-Duct---100mm-x-3m/p/167627


----------



## Ted_Kent

I will purchase some later. I can reduce the length significantly by exiting out of the other window, the only reason I was using the left window as it is easier to see the output.

I was going to come on your course but got silly busy with the build and leaving my old job.


----------



## DavecUK

Ted_Kent said:


> I will purchase some later. I can reduce the length significantly by exiting out of the other window, the only reason I was using the left window as it is easier to see the output.
> 
> I was going to come on your course but got silly busy with the build and leaving my old job.


It's OK I wasn't trying the hard sell honest... If you can use the user guide and find your own way that's also good as well.

Back to lubricants...just heard from Action Can, the Action Can CG90 as of the 6 march is no longer food rated....so it looks like I have to update the user guide







(sad face because I don't get paid to do that). Fortunately the PTFE Dry film Lubricant is still food rated and has a higher decomposition temp. it costs a little more (but not that much in the scheme of things).

So this is the product to go for

https://www.actioncan.com/product/ptfe/

Now I realise there is still plenty of the old product about (ebay etc..) that is still food rated, so you will have to use your own judgment on local regs whether it's OK considering the current (same named) product no longer is. My guess would be the certification would still be valid for an older version of the product.

I will be getting a test sample soon and I can check application methodology, but it will be the usual minimal wipe on application...because remember it's meant to be a self lubricating bush, this is just belt and braces, as I don't really believe in self lubricating..

Please note: I get no commission from the owners of Action Can, it's just a decently priced suitable lubricant

P.S. I don't get commission from Dow Corning either...who probably wouldn't lubricate me for free even if my arse had friction burns.....


----------



## Batian

Thanks again for all your extra work @DavecUK.

I am now thinking the way to go is with davecuk's suggestion of the small barrel push pump and a couple of tubes of the Molykote44 squeezed into it. This does mean changing the grease nipple to a 90deg version.

Is this a M6 fitting? Or........

And in other areas....

I used the CG90 on the front bush and inside copper cover. I ran the pulley (copper cover not replaced) and from the rear there was a loud metal on metal screech for a couple of seconds as the pulley rotated. It did not last more than a second or two and seemed to be at a specific point of rotation.

I replaced the copper cover and the screech disappeared.

So what is going on there? Do I need to be doing something?

Thanks.


----------



## DavecUK

Batian said:


> Thanks again for all your extra work @DavecUK.
> 
> I am now thinking the way to go is with davecuk's suggestion of the small barrel push pump and a couple of tubes of the Molykote44 squeezed into it. This does mean changing the grease nipple to a 90deg version.
> 
> Is this a M6 fitting? Or........
> 
> And in other areas....
> 
> I used the CG90 on the front bush and inside copper cover. I ran the pulley (copper cover not replaced) and from the rear there was a loud metal on metal screech for a couple of seconds as the pulley rotated. It did not last more than a second or two and seemed to be at a specific point of rotation.
> 
> I replaced the copper cover and the screech disappeared.
> 
> So what is going on there? Do I need to be doing something?
> 
> Thanks.


Holy shit....never run it without the bush part of the bearing in place...that is not a copper cover, it's the bloody bearing, the shaft is not meant to run ON the drum front plate and probably the weight/sag caused it to rub somewhere. It's lubricated to it can sit in the "copper cover" = bearing and slide around in that. As the shaft changes in length with heating it simply slides further into the bush (copper cover).

As for the bearing, it's just a standard grease nipple.









https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silverline-633860-Mini-Grease-120cc/dp/B000T9XPN6/ref=pd_lpo_vtph_60_lp_t_2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=5H5N76QB2NZRD1S7HGEH

As above should work fine.


----------



## Batian

@DavecUK

Ignorance is my only excuse. It did not look like what I think of as a bearing! It looked like a copper cap. And there was me thinking copper is to soft for bearings! Lesson learned.

The grease nipple fitted to mine is at 12 o'clock. I have a grease gun very similar to the one you have exampled. However it takes a cartridge. I have in the past tried loading it from a drum. This resulted in the grease exuding from the plunger hole as well as the nozzle. It will just get onto the nipple with the flexible attachment

So I was hoping to find a suitable grease in a 3oz cartridge to avoid spending money on new kit and even more on a quantity of grease sufficient to charge it! And all for a squirt or two a couple of times a year. But if needs must...

Hence my thinking on a smaller volume gun and a 90deg nipple ro allow better access and angle.

The grease nipple is standard?

I searched fleabay and there are several different thread sizes available. I am guessing M6? But as I found some of the hex bolts do not take my metric set, only the supplied Allen key I thought I had better ask before I end up with a collection of grease nipples for which it is unlikely I will ever need!

(Especially in view of my 'copper cover' whoopsy!)

Got the T shirt.

Thanks you davecuk for being long suffering......


----------



## DavecUK

It must be quite std, fitted my old grease gun, remember the don't have to be filled completely.

The cap isn't copper it will be some sort of impregnated phosphor bronze.


----------



## Batian

@DavecUK

I am probably not explaining my query well enough.

Here is the eBay page that will show you what I mean. I think need the right thread size to screw the nipple into the bearing housing?

https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?LH_PrefLoc=1&_sop=1&_odkw=green+coffee+beans&_osacat=0&_from=R40&_trksid=p2334524.m570.l1311.R1.TR11.TRC2.A0.H0.Xgrease+nipples.TRS0&_nkw=grease+nipples&_sacat=0


----------



## ashcroc

Batian said:


> @DavecUK
> 
> Ignorance is my only excuse. It did not look like what I think of as a bearing! It looked like a copper cap. And there was me thinking copper is to soft for bearings! Lesson learned.
> 
> The grease nipple fitted to mine is at 12 o'clock. I have a grease gun very similar to the one you have exampled. However it takes a cartridge. I have in the past tried loading it from a drum. This resulted in the grease exuding from the plunger hole as well as the nozzle. It will just get onto the nipple with the flexible attachment
> 
> So I was hoping to find a suitable grease in a 3oz cartridge to avoid spending money on new kit and even more on a quantity of grease sufficient to charge it! And all for a squirt or two a couple of times a year. But if needs must...
> 
> Hence my thinking on a smaller volume gun and a 90deg nipple ro allow better access and angle.
> 
> The grease nipple is standard?
> 
> I searched fleabay and there are several different thread sizes available. I am guessing M6? But as I found some of the hex bolts do not take my metric set, only the supplied Allen key I thought I had better ask before I end up with a collection of grease nipples for which it is unlikely I will ever need!
> 
> (Especially in view of my 'copper cover' whoopsy!)
> 
> Got the T shirt.
> 
> Thanks you davecuk for being long suffering......


Could the bearing housing rotate 90 degrees so the nipple is on the side?


----------



## Batian

ashcroc said:


> Could the bearing housing rotate 90 degrees so the nipple is on the side?


I assume so.

I am reluctant to do major changes in case it was placed at the top for a reason!

Another contributor on this thread pointed out that an angled grease nipple solved some access problems.


----------



## Hasi

ashcroc said:


> Could the bearing housing rotate 90 degrees so the nipple is on the side?


It's a square bolt pattern, so in theory why not?

With my grease press, however, I'm having a really hard time attaching and releasing the flex hose couple. I'm therefore happy this nipple sits on top so I don't push and pull the roaster around too much 

@Batian there are guns/presses around for small money that take grease without cartridge. I was almost buying such a thingy, then thought an 800ml cartridge will probably last a lifetime and went for that


----------



## ashcroc

Hasi said:


> It's a square bolt pattern, so in theory why not?
> 
> With my grease press, however, I'm having a really hard time attaching and releasing the flex hose couple. I'm therefore happy this nipple sits on top so I don't push and pull the roaster around too much
> 
> @Batian there are guns/presses around for small money that take grease without cartridge. I was almost buying such a thingy, then thought an 800ml cartridge will probably last a lifetime and went for that


The rigid pipe is so much easier to remove than the flexible hose. It just makes access a touch more difficult sometimes.


----------



## Hasi

ashcroc said:


> The rigid pipe is so much easier to remove than the flexible hose. It just makes access a touch more difficult sometimes.


True, will switch next time... there's plenty room above the Amazon, anyways


----------



## Ted_Kent

100mm pipe in place as instructed.

Also had a small fire station delivered today in the form of fire extinguishers. 3x 2kg CO2, 2x6l water and 2x4kg powder, plus a couple of fire blankets. The overall building size is 15mx4.5m, so enough equipment for each "room" garage/workshop.


----------



## DavecUK

Guys, Lubrication...I did some digging. Now although I am not roasting commercially, some of you are, so would want to use food grade wherever possible. I spoke to the company who now owns Action Can, and they own Ambersil as well. It appear that there may well be a good product for the rear bearing as well as the front. I am getting some in for testing, so just hang on until I try them both out, it shouldn't take long. Both are food grade H1

*For the rear bearing and possibly front bush*

http://www.ambersil.com/ambersil/AMBproductdetail.csp?product=AMBERGREASE%20FG2

*For the front bush*

https://www.actioncan.com/product/ptfe/

Now of course feel free to get other products, but I did a fair bit of digging and struggled to come up with anything suitable that was also reasonably priced. I know it says for sliding bearings and plain bearings, but should be fine on the rear bearing (which I believe is a roller/ball race bearing, although it might not be).

P.S. The main check for FG2 is going to be viscosity and how well I can get it into the bearing


----------



## ajohn

DavecUK said:


> Guys, Lubrication...I did some digging. Now although I am not roasting commercially, some of you are, so would want to use food grade wherever possible. I spoke to the company who now owns Action Can, and they own Ambersil as well. It appear that there may well be a good product for the rear bearing as well as the front. I am getting some in for testing, so just hang on until I try them both out, it shouldn't take long. Both are food grade H1
> 
> *For the rear bearing and possibly front bush*
> 
> http://www.ambersil.com/ambersil/AMBproductdetail.csp?product=AMBERGREASE%20FG2
> 
> *For the front bush*
> 
> https://www.actioncan.com/product/ptfe/
> 
> Now of course feel free to get other products, but I did a fair bit of digging and struggled to come up with anything suitable that was also reasonably priced. I know it says for sliding bearings and plain bearings, but should be fine on the rear bearing (which I believe is a roller/ball race bearing, although it might not be).
> 
> P.S. The main check for FG2 is going to be viscosity and how well I can get it into the bearing


Curiously I just looked at this thread and noticed comments about food grad grease and thought mention FG2 for both ends. Details here including data sheets

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/c/facilities-cleaning-maintenance/greases-oils-lubricants/greases/?applied-dimensions=4291593489,4294425913,4294715969

2 greases should show - 2nd one for amusement only. Much higher temp spec.

Good source, genuine stuff, free postage and sometimes the source of items on ebay at an inflated price.

John

-


----------



## Batian

re grease nipple thread size.

It measures up as 5.71mm.

It was only hand tight and a bit sloppy in the bearing. the engineer that measured it says it is a 'sort of M6 but not so well made'!

I tried a M6 nut on it and that was OK.

I have had to buy (eBay) 10 of 45deg. Fingers crossed etc

So if you want one, it's yours for the post if it has to go large letter!

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173575116226


----------



## ashcroc

Batian said:


> re grease nipple thread size.
> 
> It measures up as 5.71mm.
> 
> It was only hand tight and a bit sloppy in the bearing. the engineer that measured it says it is a 'sort of M6 but not so well made'!
> 
> I tried a M6 nut on it and that was OK.
> 
> I have had to buy (eBay) 10 of 45deg. Fingers crossed etc
> 
> So if you want one, it's yours for the post if it has to go large letter!
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173575116226


That sounds about right. The M8 ones are usually reserved for if one breaks & needs drilling out & re-tapping.


----------



## DavecUK

Ted, remember to remove the horn on one of the CO2 extinguishers and check the tube fits into the tryer hole (leave the horn off of one of the CO2 units)....you might thank me one day for that tip!


----------



## Ted_Kent

DavecUK said:


> Ted, remember to remove the horn on one of the CO2 extinguishers and check the tube fits into the tryer hole (leave the horn off of one of the CO2 units)....you might thank me one day for that tip!


Great tip Dave, i will give that a try tomorrow when I am out there. With fire being the topic it is worth pointing out that on my roaster simply switching the main fan switch to chaff removal does not turn the heating element off. This is fine as I have written fire instructions near to the roaster and have just added "turn off the heat switch" to the instruction.

The throw away roast is complete, all happened fairly quickly with the roast level I wanted being achieved by around 11m30s so for the next one I am going to try and extend that out a little by some more SD. For my first go I think I am fairly happy, I didn't go to dark which was my concern and for me this is more about learning the processes and how my roaster responds to changes rather than developing a roast at this point.


----------



## DavecUK

Tell Bella Barista that it doesn't turn the heating elements off...they must have wired it slightly wrong at the factory and it should be a simple fix. Hopefully it stops the fan, so you need to remember to manually switch the heating elements off....just because there is no airflow and best not let them get too hot. If you have a fire as per the manual and also manually switch the heating elements off.

beanz look very even BTW


----------



## Ted_Kent

DavecUK said:


> Tell Bella Barista that it doesn't turn the heating elements off...they must have wired it slightly wrong at the factory and it should be a simple fix. Hopefully it stops the fan, so you need to remember to manually switch the heating elements off....just because there is no airflow and best not let them get too hot. If you have a fire as per the manual and also manually switch the heating elements off.
> 
> beanz look very even BTW


I'll give them a shout Monday to let then know, my roaster is from the batch delivered around Feb last year so worth others from the same batch check.

The switch does turn the fan off so for the time being my fire drills include "turn off the heat switch"

I was fairly impressed with how they came out, as a reward I finished the Cadburys Dairy Milk that I used as a colour guide (it was only a little one)

Looking forward to the next one........roast that is, not dairy milk.


----------



## Hasi

Mine has the same switch thing going on, same batch. Told BB and they were really helpful in providing what they had, could, knew... it's still there and I've adapted to it pretty well.

Didn't want to change pins on my own on a brand new machine without an order to do so. But in theory it's super easy to solve. Will do after warranty


----------



## DavecUK

I don't eat that any more...pity cos I loved it.


----------



## Batian

Batian said:


> re grease nipple thread size.
> 
> It measures up as 5.71mm.
> 
> It was only hand tight and a bit sloppy in the bearing. the engineer that measured it says it is a 'sort of M6 but not so well made'!
> 
> I tried a M6 nut on it and that was OK.
> 
> I have had to buy (eBay) 10 of 45deg. Fingers crossed etc
> 
> So if you want one, it's yours for the post if it has to go large letter!
> 
> https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/173575116226


Heho.

The 45deg nipples arrived today along with the new grease gun. That is the good news.

The bad news is that the grease nipples, although being the right sized thread will not go into the bearing. The proximity of the bearing casing does not allow the nipple to turn after one turn, and so will not go in!

So @Paolo5, please could you give further advice as yours seems to fit !

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?26651-It-s-that-time-of-year-again-New-Roaster-coming-on-test&p=512348#post512348










I also note that as with @DavecUK machine Paolo5's machine has a nipple at 9 o'clock whereas mine is at 12 o'clock. I wonder if the bearing spec has been changed along the way?

The next bit of frustration....

The above suggested (admittedly a cheapo) grease gun has a totally locked up adjustable nozzle. Whatever I have done with mole grips and vices has not shifted the damn thing.

If anybody has any suggestions on how to shift it so I can adjust it so that the jaws to fit over the grease nipple, please do tell! My other cheapo grease gun moves easily between fingers and thumbs.

Thanks.


----------



## DavecUK

I must get a photo of my old vintage grease gin, if you can get the same style, it pretty much greases anything without all these problems?


----------



## Paolo5

The angled grease nipple just screwed into my Dalian.









It has an M6x1 metric thread.


----------



## Batian

Paolo5 said:


> The angled grease nipple just screwed into my Dalian.


Thanks. Can you remember where you sourced the nipple from by any chance?


----------



## Batian

DavecUK said:


> I must get a photo of my old vintage grease gin, if you can get the same style, it pretty much greases anything without all these problems?


The gun (allegedly) has a life time guarantee, first 30 days with the seller, then the maker from there on.

I am now in the process.....


----------



## Paolo5

Batian said:


> Thanks. Can you remember where you sourced the nipple from by any chance?


It was just an Ebay purchase:-

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/60pc-Hydraulic-Grease-Nipple-Metric-Assortment-Mechanical-Lubricant-Fittings-M6/122417104292?hash=item1c80a0c5a4:g:NkMAAOSw1SdbvGt2&frcectupt=true


----------



## Batian

Paolo5 said:


> It was just an Ebay purchase:-
> 
> Thanks for this.
> 
> eBay is where I sourced mine, but it, or the bearing casing must have some differences as the nipple will not pass the casing when trying to screw it in.
> 
> I will have to try and find someone local with a selection to try or I will end up with packets of the things!


----------



## Paolo5

I remember at the time that local car accessory places (in Australia) stocked them too. Good luck!


----------



## Batian

One step at a time....................!

Yesterday I discovered that if I unscrewed the nipple tip (more later) the main body had sufficient room to be fitted into the bearing hole.

However, despite best plans, the 45 deg M6 x 1mm grease nipples did not fit the hole!

Closer inspection showed a definite difference in the threads of the OEM and the replacement 45 deg.

So this morning it was up to a local bearings etc seller. They agreed and supplied me with their version of the desired part...also 45 deg M6 x 1mm. The thread was obviously different. With a bit of fiddlin' it went in...minus its nipple tip.

BUT

A thin washer was needed to pad it out a bit so that the fitted nipple tip was in the right place.

Now, removing the nipple tip is easy enough. The original replacement (that did not fit) has a compressed spring with a pin head sized ball bearing atop. I suggest the way to go is to ease the parts with spanner and vice and then complete the separation over a towel. Considerable similar care will be needed when reassembling to the body part when it is screwed into the bearing.

The second replacement nipple did not have the spring. Joy.


----------



## Batian

At last, SUCCESS!


----------



## Hasi

haha, all that hassle for this small a nipple. But, good job! Thx for going through it


----------



## Hasi

Just a little heads up...

Going into first crack today, Artisan suddenly went nuts displaying a total stall (RoR -5) followed by an equally unusual sprint (RoR +10). It was then that I saw fumes exit through the rear vents as if there was no ventilation at all - quickly checked, both cyclone and external extractor fan were running.

Dumped the roast immediately (to a 1kg loss) and let machine cool down. Just came back and disassembled all ducting, here's what I found:










Now cleaning cyclone fan and housing... well overdue after almost 300kg.

edit: just thought about it, this must've been the reason for my chaff smouldering of late. Chaff could only have collected at CA flap if the fan hadn't been powerful enough to suck it out in the first place.


----------



## DavecUK

You really must roast with the cooling air fully open all the time!


----------



## Hasi

not at all, but the extractor fan may be pulling too much. Hose is directly connected, although it's not the final setup - so there's hope! 










Here's a typical workflow that I manually track in Artisan.

Heat... blue

CA... green

SD... turquoise

(that black line being amient temp on top of control panel)

CA starts fully open (=80 as in 80mm), SD fully closed (=0 as in 0mm), heat at 2200W (=100 as in 100%).

A bit confusing at first, but if you've seen the possibility to record that kind of data in Artisan besides roasting, it becomes pretty straight forward in no time.


----------



## DavecUK

After 3 or 4 hours roasting, can you place your hand on the back stainless steel pipe middle of the horizontal section leading to the chaff collector and is it nice and warm, but not so hot it burns?


----------



## ashcroc

Please try with the back of your hand so the natural reaction is to pull away.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> After 3 or 4 hours roasting, can you place your hand on the back stainless steel pipe middle of the horizontal section leading to the chaff collector and is it nice and warm, but not so hot it burns?


will try on Friday!


----------



## Hasi

ashcroc said:


> Please try with the back of your hand so the natural reaction is to pull away.


I'll try with your hand


----------



## ashcroc

Hasi said:


> I'll try with your hand


Yay, a free trip to Austria!


----------



## DavecUK

OK I got the Lubricant samples and I really like the Ambergrease FG2 for both front and rear bearings. While I was testing i did a little maintenance video for front and rear bearings, plus the fan.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> OK I got the Lubricant samples and I really like the Ambergrease FG2 for both front and rear bearings. While I was testing i did a little maintenance video for front and rear bearings, plus the fan.












"plus the fan"


----------



## Dotix

One thing to pay attention when cleaning the fan:

the impeller has a balancing part(metal clamp) on one of the fins - it is good not to remove it or better to mark it's position in case you will need to put it back.


----------



## DavecUK

Dotix said:


> One thing to pay attention when cleaning the fan:
> 
> the impeller has a balancing part(metal clamp) on one of the fins - it is good not to remove it or better to mark it's position in case you will need to put it back.


Good call, in fact it's not necessary to remove the impeller at all, just brush with an old paintbrush and use a vacuum cleaner. I also ought to add the AS disclaimer below.

I am not connected with the Global CRC Industries company who make Ambersil and Action Can, I have no financial interest or shares in the company, I was not paid to write the review and receive no commission on sales. I do admit that I was given sample products FOC, but I was dammed if I was going to purchase them when I already had purchased suitable products some years ago now, just to produce a video and user guide for which I also received no payment or benefit in kind from Bella Barista, Dalian Amazon, youtube advertising (none of my videos are monetised) or anyone else I have not thought of. If I recommend the products it's because I think they are good products but I don't know if they are the best products because I have not tried them all.

Tecalemit are still trading but my grease gun is approximately 60 or 70 years old and the modern grease guns are not the same, these are still available from vintage tool suppliers should you wish to buy one, but I am not affiliated with any. I can strongly recommend the Tecalemit 3020 as it has lasted without any new parts for the last 60 or 70 years and seems a good product for the Dalian Amazon roaster.


----------



## Dotix

Quick photo to show the balancing clip on impeller - one "heavy" clean can remove it without noticing something was there


----------



## Hasi

out of curiosity, does every fan have one or is it subject to imbalance of individual construction (as in car wheels)?


----------



## Dotix

It depends on manufacturer and the cost of the product - on simple cheap fans you will not find it

For a good product, manufacturer finds a way to balance the propeller or impeller either by adding weights (similar to car wheels) or removing some weight on the opposite side by polishing or cutting or drilling a bit of material

Balancing is extra cost but it pays off - lower noise and less stress/longer life on bearings.

Frankly I was a bit surprised to find one on Chinese unit


----------



## Hasi

thx mate!

yea I was aware of the removing weight thing, but as you say it's more of a premium procedure to even look at weight balance.

I wondered mostly whether it'd be found on every Dalian Amazon as I don't recall seeing one when I cleaned mine lately, maybe flown off earlier?

Doesn't get noisy after all, so perhaps just luckily well produced


----------



## Dotix

Well, I am planning to check the balancing on mine at some point when I will get a bit of spare time and I will share the results.

From the sound of it, there is room for improvement.

Nevertheless you need a lot of patience to do it properly with household tools...


----------



## Hasi

Dotix said:


> Well, I am planning to check the balancing on mine at some point when I will get a bit of spare time and I will share the results.
> 
> From the sound of it, there is room for improvement.
> 
> Nevertheless you need a lot of patience to do it properly with household tools...


once upon a time I was into RC planes.

If it's still around and if I can find it, I used to have a propeller balancing tool... oh good old times


----------



## Dotix

That will be static balancing and you will need to disassemble the unit - not practical.

I will go different way with dynamic balancing to check whole unit: motor+cooling propeller+exhaust impeller

Don't know if effort will justify the results - Dalian unit is pretty "silent" as it is

Sorry for being bit off-topic in Dave thread - also in RC everything(planes/cars/copters)


----------



## Hasi

Dotix said:


> That will be static balancing and you will need to disassemble the unit - not practical.
> 
> I will go different way with dynamic balancing to check whole unit: motor+cooling propeller+exhaust impeller
> 
> Sorry for being bit off-topic in Dave thread - also in RC everything(planes/cars/copters)


nice! Let us know how it went


----------



## DavecUK

fans are Wo Lin units, one of the better Chinese manufacturers. I spoke to them about 4 years ago.

I did go through everything on the roaster with a fine tooth comb and was testing for 6-9 months prepping for the redesign. It was a lot of work, but i like to be thorough (well as thorough as I can be).


----------



## frederic

DavecUK said:


> OK I got the Lubricant samples and I really like the Ambergrease FG2 for both front and rear bearings ...


Hello Dave - Thank you for your great advice on Dalian maintenance. I tried to find a source for Ambergrease FG2 in Germany or at least a store with shipping to Germany - unfortunately I had no success so far. It looks like this brand is more "prominent" in UK ...

Do you know how I could get hands on this material in Germany? Thank you.


----------



## DavecUK

I don't and every time I search it knows I am in UK. I can't believe it's not sold in Germany. You could check with Ambersil for a German distributor.


----------



## frederic

Thank you. Sent an email ... so let's see ... will keep you posted.


----------



## DavecUK

The other way of course is a forum buy with a member who travels to germany regularly and can post it once over there. I checked out the postage to Germany from Amazon and £20!!!! or perhaps you can order from a neighbouring country...I dunno. It's a great product, seems daft it's not sold in Germany??


----------



## Beeroclock

Where in Germany are you Frederic? - My Mum is going to Berlin on the 12th April as will I on the 27th July...


----------



## NAJB

I was pointed to this thread by a fellow member, who just over a year ago came to see my machine, bought one himself and now provides the link to coffee suppliers for a small group; an all round good egg, in other words. Many thanks, Batian

I have now undertaken 197kg of roasting, which means that with the 3 sacrifice roasts I have reached the 200kg mark. A small spot of maintenance seemed to be in order. My rear bearing nipple is at the 12 o'clock position and the lateral spacing does not permit a grease nozzle to be attached. First task was this to replace that nipple, many thanks (again) to Batian who had found the correct ones. I await my new grease (the one recommended by Dave C).

Despite the video evidence (page ? earlier) the front bearing was not a simple removal. It appeared to be stuck on. A judicious tap on a metal rod angled into one of the flange plate holes freed the bearing. There was some evidence of coffee oils (or perhaps very old grease) on the shaft and around the mating face that might have been the cause. Cleaned, re-greased and spun up, the machine is now totally quiet (it had been a little squeaky before). 200 roasts represents (at an average 2kg per roast session) around 200 hours use/rotation. My judgement is that I probably left it too long to service the front bearing and should aim to maintain the front bearing every 100 hours, but I will check to see whether it is stuck again after another 50 hours or so.


----------



## DavecUK

The deposits on the front bush bearing would have been probably coffee oils, but also water born contaminants from the drum during roasting. Although stated as self lubricating my own experience of mechanics tells me that sure, but perhaps not in the presence of moisture and roasting produces moisture. Hence I lubricate mine. The good news is you can buy the replacement caps with the bearing in and because it's only the weight of the drum sag from the rear bearing, that even if there is wear on bearing or shaft, it won't make any difference, unlike a caged or needle roller bearing. Rotational speeds are very low and with the lubricant I recommend the bearing should really go on decades regardless.

Lubrication wise, I would think once every 3 months will be fine and once every 6 months on a lightly used roaster. However there is no problem doing it monthly if you want and it only needs a smear. Watch my video and be super careful about marking the 12 o clock position on the cap so it goes back the same way and *absolutely make sure it's properly home and sitting flush with the front plate (you will see the smaller circular indentation and the corresponding part of the cap that MUST sit within it.).* In fact anyone with a new roaster should check the factory have installed this cap correctly and I will mention this as an additional check for Bella Barista.


----------



## Hasi

+1 for @Batian is ace! 

Re grease nipple: has anybody else had trouble releasing gun attachment from factory fitted nipple? Mine appears to be a bit big, so will exchange as well before next lube.

Out of curiosity @DavecUK what would happen to an incorrectly mounted front bearing (rotated placement)?

Do you reckon the bearing to have adapted to an initial non-axial alignment that stems from assembly tolerances?

I'll definitely punch a 12 o'clock mark in the base when disassembling next time.


----------



## DavecUK

Hasi said:


> +1 for @Batian is ace!
> 
> Re grease nipple: has anybody else had trouble releasing gun attachment from factory fitted nipple? Mine appears to be a bit big, so will exchange as well before next lube.
> 
> Out of curiosity @DavecUK what would happen to an incorrectly mounted front bearing (rotated placement)?
> 
> Do you reckon the bearing to have adapted to an initial non-axial alignment that stems from assembly tolerances?
> 
> I'll definitely punch a 12 o'clock mark in the base when disassembling next time.


Wow, dunno. What I do know is that it should sit flat to the front plat, *mine* does only in the one position. Is this due to hole alignment when the front plate is drilled and tapped, is it the way the cap is made....who knows. However with a bearing it's good engineering practice to put it back the same way, even if it can go back in any 1 of 3 positions. As for adaptation, all bearings of this nature will, in the same way as moving parts within engines do.

I think you should punch a 6 O clock mark in the base


----------



## Dotix

Hasi said:


> +1 for @Batian is ace!
> 
> Re grease nipple: has anybody else had trouble releasing gun attachment from factory fitted nipple? Mine appears to be a bit big, so will exchange as well before next lube.


The same on mine - took some muscle to release the gun.

A good idea will be to polish a bit the nipple.


----------



## DavecUK

Don't they do grease guns with half spheres (cups) on the end any more rather than locking jaws! Old ideas but seemed to work then as they do today.

You can still buy Vintage guns like mine on ebay.


----------



## Hasi

DavecUK said:


> Wow, dunno. What I do know is that it should sit flat to the front plat, *mine* does only in the one position. Is this due to hole alignment when the front plate is drilled and tapped, is it the way the cap is made....who knows. However with a bearing it's good engineering practice to put it back the same way, even if it can go back in any 1 of 3 positions. As for adaptation, all bearings of this nature will, in the same way as moving parts within engines do.
> 
> I think you should punch a 6 O clock mark in the base


Thanks mate - ah ok, will check on mine when it's due 

haha, yea probably 6 o'clock would look nicer if punched in the front. I thought about marking rim or backside where it stays out of sight and doesn't affect function (like you would during an engine overhaul)


----------



## Hasi

Dotix said:


> The same on mine - took some muscle to release the gun.
> 
> A good idea will be to polish a bit the nipple.


did that, but wouldn't recommend as you need to be so careful not to get metal dust near the ball and into the bearing as a result... also it didn't work wonders.


----------



## Batian

@Hasi and @Dotix

Are the connectors on your grease gun adjustable?

May be an alternative solution to fit an adjustable connector?

This one comes with 2 adjustable connectors, so if you find that is more economical than buying an adjustable connector separately.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/362530159253


----------



## Dotix

You are right - stupid me...

Mine was tight from factory and haven't notice is adjustable.

Thanks for this Batian!


----------



## NAJB

An adjustable nozzle works perfectly, on both the mullered old nipple and, rather more importantly, on the new nipple.

Not sure whether it really is that important to locate the front bush in the same orientation. Any lack of concentricity will either be irrelevant or ground down after a few 10s of hours.


----------



## DavecUK

NAJB said:


> Not sure whether it really is that important to locate the front bush in the same orientation. Any lack of concentricity will either be irrelevant or ground down after a few 10s of hours.


When Uncle David says it is important....one should listen......but it's your roaster.


----------



## NAJB

Please explain why? I offered a view on the lack of concentricity, but that would have been a problem from the word go. But in general terms I would always follow the mantra of replace as found, even to the extent of bolts/screws.


----------



## DavecUK

NAJB said:


> Please explain why? I offered a view on the lack of concentricity, but that would have been a problem from the word go. But in general terms I would always follow the mantra of replace as found, even to the extent of bolts/screws.


Look it's your roaster, please feel free to replace it in any way you want. It's old school mechanical engineering and 2 lifetimes of experience, mine and my fathers...I just don't have the time or inclination to try tutor this stuff on a forum. Perhaps you're completely correct and it won't make any difference at all, without tests one can't know, what I *do* know is because of that very reason, my advice is likely to hold good.

As a mate once said to me when I experience surprise at some of the things he has done. "It's obvious to you because you don't realise what you do know and it's the assumption that other people also know it". I have no idea what you know, I forget what I simply "know" and wouldn't be good (or would lack the patience) at explaining it.


----------



## johnealey

Full 300kg clean lube and polish, all going well till very last job greasing the rear bearing, snapped off grease nipple trying to get stupid 4 clamp jaw off, argh!

Luckily spring left inside gave enough purchase to screw out stub of nipple.

Stainless steel M6 nipples and new grease gun quick release ordered, Tuesday delivery.

Moral of the story: grease guns are a pain in the proverbial; get some spare nipples in before you do this job (mine was located at the 9 O'clock position); don't do this job on a sunday afternoon when nothing open...

Otherwise everything easy if a little messy 

John


----------



## El carajillo

Not sure which / what grease gun you are using but the old Wanner and Teclamit guns had back pressure release valves fitted.

A small knurled nut on the Wanner and a ball bearing you depressed on the Teclamit gun


----------



## Aquila

Hi Dave,

First time on this forum and only knowing you from the manuals of the Dalian Amazon.

Living in The Netherlands this forum is a great thing and easier than traveling to Surrey or Wellingborough 🙂

We have a Dalian Amazon since July 2018 and roasted about 50 kilo.

Since February this year the *E2* error occurs suddenly and unpredictable on the RT-controller.

RT is set on 191C and AT is set on 240C.

After warming for about 20-25 minutes we put the beans in at 191C and the temperature dropping to 140C, so far so good.

But then the RT start tripping&#8230;. E2 displays&#8230; temp in seconds from 190 to 210 and back to 140 and in meantime the Power for Heating is OFF and On and Off and On.

Sometimes it start tripping when the beans are in 1st Crack and so then it's a wild guess and fingers crossed if the beans are roasted okay and a bit tasteful.

Can you give us some advice about this behaviour? Or are there any forum members with the same experience?

I read post #125 march 18-2016 and post #207 but nothing about E2 like this.

We dismantle the PT100, clean it and re-insert; no result, it still happening.

We switched the 2 Ewelly's (EW-986AH) so the RT is now AT and vice versa; for 1 roasting it works, "high five", but then it still happening again.

Could it be the voltage? Although in UK it's also high. In China Mainland it's all AC 220V. And the spec's (EW-986AH) say 220 +/-10% So that's 242V max.

In our street and house the AC-grid had a lot of variation. From 225V in the night and early morning till 253V mid of the day (11:00-15:00) That's because there are a lot of residential PV-systems. But still EC specs ; AC 230V +/- 10% = 207V~~253V

Anyway, when we measure the Voltage during roasting we start at 245V and then it drops with the heater ON to 238V.

I ordered a sort of Variac but the variation will still occur then I think.

Also the power mod will not solve the problem I think ☹, it's only for flatten / stretch the roasting curve (like the COVID-19 curve)

Is there a problem with the EW-986AH's?

PT100 are very sturdy and never heard of any failure (already 50 kilo's no problem's)

I hope you can give us some advice before we go to Bella Barista

( we have questions mailed but because of the Lock Down everybody was working from home so no technician in the BB house ☹)

Hope you can help us or anybody on this forum. We need the caffeine badly

Kind Regards, Arend


----------



## gekonko

Hello Aquila,

Ewelly EW-986A manual says:
当现时温度高于最高温度限制时,
显示"E2",同时负载断开。
translated:
When the current temperature is higher than the maximum temperature limit,
"E2" is displayed and the load is disconnected.

Could you try another PT100 thermocouple?


----------



## Aquila

Hello Gekonko,

no I haven't a spare PT100 probe that will fit. But I do measure the ♎ Ohm of both pt100 probe at 0C and 100C and then check this with the standard. Nothing wrong with them. 
the strange thing is that the tripping starts often when the beanmass cools down the PT100 (RT)

E2 is when the temp must BE higher than our 191C , not at 140C and a second later 210-C 
I will order some spare just in case You are right. (Mayby duplex PT100 for future Uden). But still waiting for the big explanation.

Thanx for your reply 👍


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## DavecUK

Swap the controllers over, see what happens.


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## Aquila

Hi Dave, good evening,

I have already swap the RT and AT Controller with each other. Then 1x a good roasting, but the second roast it happens again. 
I also thought that maybe an Elektro statisch Phenomenon Because of the high speed cyclone was the cause. But everything is earth grounded en joined together.


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## DavecUK

Then swap the probes over.


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## Aquila

Okay, I will do that (if the length is enough) and try another roasting. 
I will report the results then. 👍


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## DavecUK

Or buy a spare probe and try that, I have a controller and probe as spares, just in case.


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## Aquila

Hi Dave, Hi everyone,

We did another roast. [1 kg Santa Maria de Lourdes - Micro Lot Esperanza - Red Honey Origin: Nicaragua ]

I couldn't swap the probes because The RT is 2 meter and the AT just 1 meter. So I used a spare 4" probe which I insert just for a 2" into the roast-drum.

The setting we started was:

Controllers RT and AT are now swapped in comparison with the OEM Dalian Amazon.

Probe AT: nothing changed and Setpoint at 240C

Probe RT: a spare one and Setpoint at 191C

K-probe: also working (right side on foto )

Grid voltage 235V and 227V under load (heater ON)

The roasting was for us starting as a disaster.

While warming up for some 20 minutes and SD on 2 after some minutes there was a bigger difference between RT and AT then normally was and the temperature was rising sky high above the setting points.

RT AT K

177 206 248

180 209 251

190 221 260

190 224 261

193 237 266 (heater was OFF at 191 so Okay)

194 240 267 (K was never that high)

198 252 270

199 252 264

197 E1 257

192 238 244

191-188 0-236-(E1) 240-234 (AT was tripping after RT set Heater ON) (cause of the E1 Heater went OFF)

After a while we decide to roast anyway and give it a try.

RT point out 186C, AT still tripping and K steady at 230C Heater ON

Just by looking through the glass, listening an try the sampler, the roast was okay and tasteful but the electronic device still tripping.

So on the end I think the current AT controller is the broken one.

Do you agree?

Kind regards, Arend

[IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG][IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG]


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## Aquila

I try to upload some tiny foto's but I get an error -200!

[IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG][IMG alt="" data-src=""]https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/applications/core/interface/js/spacer.png[/IMG]


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## DavecUK

Not necessarily agree AT Co troller is bad, sounds like it's tripping at 240. Set it to 250.

Akso are you using the supplied vent tube and how long is the run?

Are you roasting with the cooling tray damper fully open?


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## Aquila

Thanks,

Okay, we will set AT at 250C next time.

The vent-tube is still the originally spiral-alu and also the originally length.

Here is the roastlog:

1000 g at start / 835g end/ so 16,5% lost

ambient temperature 15 deg C

start: 186C RT (225C AT) 230C K

time RT AT (average) SD CA

01 142 186 0 5cm

02 141 176 0 5cm

03 145 178 0 5cm

04 148 182 1cm 5cm

05 152 189 1cm 6cm

06 157 192 1cm 6cm

07 163 195 2cm 6cm

08 168 200 2cm 6cm

09 174 206 2cm 6cm

10 179 217 5cm 6cm

11 185 218 5cm 6cm

12:18 187

Turning point at 02:07min

1ste crack 09:50 at 177C

Total time 12:18 at 187C

DT= 2:44min


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## DavecUK

Change vent tube for 100mm aluminium ducting. If run is longer than 4 feet increase to 220mm

Open CA slider to full and leave it there. Only close it if you need to slow ROR or prevent RT going too high.

Don't leave SD at 0 for more than 2m max.

Nothing wrong with your Roaster.


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## Aquila

Okay!! That should be great. We will change the Tube/ pipe immediatly.

And we will let you know the next roasts.

thanx!! Arend


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## DavecUK

Oh bloody phone autocorrect, for longer run 120mm not 220mm


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## Aquila

Hello Dave,

finally we dare to say the errors are solved. 2 new controllers and 2 new probes inside the metal jackets from the original rvs PT100 probes. 
the old one are filled with sand and although seems to work okay still tripping during roasting. Also the controllers turned to be "Monday-morning" quality so we changed them also for look-a-likes. 
Bella Barista wasn't able to respond or help and we still never heard from them since Corona flooding Europe. 
In Holland we called that kind of shop owners " Dozenschuivers". Maybe they are still working on it but an email response shouldn't be so difficult?

So we are glad that this forum is there to help and give advice. And also the people of Dalian Amazon. 
Thank you all for contributing with ideas and solutions

and now.....a cup of coffee 👍

Kind regards, Arend


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## DavecUK

Aquila said:


> Hello Dave,
> 
> finally we dare to say the errors are solved. 2 new controllers and 2 new probes inside the metal jackets from the original rvs PT100 probes.
> the old one are filled with sand and although seems to work okay still tripping during roasting. Also the controllers turned to be "Monday-morning" quality so we changed them also for look-a-likes.
> Bella Barista wasn't able to respond or help and we still never heard from them since Corona flooding Europe.
> In Holland we called that kind of shop owners " Dozenschuivers". Maybe they are still working on it but an email response shouldn't be so difficult?
> 
> So we are glad that this forum is there to help and give advice. And also the people of Dalian Amazon.
> Thank you all for contributing with ideas and solutions
> 
> and now.....a cup of coffee 👍
> 
> Kind regards, Arend


 Might be worth contacting BB and let them know your experience and about the lack of response. They did have a member of staff leave their company around that time and I suspect that person did not pass your issue on to anyone. Since then, they realised there were a lot of internal processes that needed improving. It's up to you, but I would recommend you let them know.


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## Aquila

Okay, that will probably explain indeed the lack of response. The whole pre-sale, sale an shipping was a 180 degrees different experience. 
Too soon with this judgment 😉

Anyway...... we are on the road again.

Thanks for letting me know.


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## DavecUK

Aquila said:


> Okay, that will probably explain indeed the lack of response. The whole pre-sale, sale an shipping was a 180 degrees different experience.
> Too soon with this judgment 😉
> 
> Anyway...... we are on the road again.
> 
> Thanks for letting me know.


 One advantage of a very simple device, the ability to put your own controllers and probes in if you want to. I've been very lucky with mine, temperatures are spot on and it works perfectly. When I used to give people training, I often found their temps were different to mine but at least there is an offset function so they could apply it to their roaster by recording 1st on their beans using my roaster and the temp, then on their own roaster, set their offset to show the same temp at the beginning of first running the same profile.

They didn't have to but at least they were seeing representative temperatures at which 1st really happens rather than temps 8 or 10C below....so better able to relate it to any written information on the web.


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