# Next project...



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Bad espresso proudly served here


----------



## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

So that's the upgrade...plenty of pics during restoration please.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Meanwhile, grinding tomorrow morning will be interesting:


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

And who ever said Royal's were too big anyway? It's shorter than a Classic!


----------



## markf (Nov 18, 2015)

risky said:


> And who ever said Royal's were too big anyway? It's shorter than a Classic!


Could I ask where you got your portafilter for the classic? it looks pretty cool


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

markf said:


> Could I ask where you got your portafilter for the classic? it looks pretty cool


Sadly I can't give you a proper answer because it came with the classic when I bought it. Wooden handle, bottomless. That's about all I can tell you.


----------



## markf (Nov 18, 2015)

risky said:


> Sadly I can't give you a proper answer because it came with the classic when I bought it. Wooden handle, bottomless. That's about all I can tell you.


haha alright thanks risky.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Hold on tight when you fire her up


----------



## destiny (Jun 4, 2015)

markf said:


> Could I ask where you got your portafilter for the classic? it looks pretty cool


Was going to ask exactly the same question... me needs one!


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

And I thought I was dangerous...............


----------



## insatiableOne (Jul 29, 2015)

risky said:


>


That is one nice name plate... its ok it'll buff right out.


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

risky said:


> And who ever said Royal's were too big anyway? It's shorter than a Classic!


James; is it easy to get all the bits out of the Royal, motor etc. - you don't have to bake it or anything, do you?


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

jonc said:


> James; is it easy to get all the bits out of the Royal, motor etc. - you don't have to bake it or anything, do you?


Just unbolts. Doddle.


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Cool; cheers.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Body is now getting a test powder coat.


----------



## insatiableOne (Jul 29, 2015)

Same Colour??


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Quite the kick on her...


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Reassembly commencing. Hit a slight stumbling block as I don't seem to have any screws to attach the switch to the body. And it seems like some horrible odd thread.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Getting there!


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

You'll be looking for some nice new rubber feet for that surely ;-)


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

MrShades said:


> You'll be looking for some nice new rubber feet for that surely ;-)


Hold that thought. I'm not overly keen on the feet, even brand new ones. My first instinct is to machine some out of aluminium with a felt pad on the bottom. I'll be in contact if I abandon this plan though.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

risky said:


> Hold that thought. I'm not overly keen on the feet, even brand new ones. My first instinct is to machine some out of aluminium with a felt pad on the bottom. I'll be in contact if I abandon this plan though.


ooo bling feet nice


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

risky said:


> Hold that thought. I'm not overly keen on the feet, even brand new ones. My first instinct is to machine some out of aluminium with a felt pad on the bottom. I'll be in contact if I abandon this plan though.


I would love to have the skills to decide to machine something like that - and make it happen!


----------



## Sharkie (Apr 29, 2013)

markf said:


> Could I ask where you got your portafilter for the classic? it looks pretty cool


You can get them on eBay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/161203220272


----------



## insatiableOne (Jul 29, 2015)

risky said:


> Getting there!


Oh, that's looking sweet!


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Some basic modding tonight installing some cardboard so the doser sweeps clean.

Fired it up to test it out and got a particularly nasty shock when I touched the doser as it was running.

Recall now that I didn't reattach the earth to the body. But can a spark advise if this indicates there is a bare wire touching the body somewhere or is the problem somewhere else in my house? (house is Victorian and has a very old fuse box with no RCD) paging @Thecatlinux and anyone else who might know

Obviously I did the only sensible thing in the situation which was to drink the spro and a pint of Chemex chaser in order to calm my racing heart.


----------



## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

just 2p

if anybody has a slightly vibrating grinder

in my classic HiFi equipment forum, we use ''Sorbothane'' feet ( discs or semi-spheres) to reduce audio feedback on turntables

sheet

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Moth-MothSorb-Sorbothane-Sheet/dp/B007JT3HIM

worth a shot [groan]...


----------



## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

risky said:


> .
> 
> Fired it up to test it out and got a particularly nasty shock when I *touched the doser* as it was running. ,,,,,,..


do you have one of those small electrical screwdrivers with a neon bulb in the handle

better yet - a multimeter...?


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

yardbent said:


> do you have one of those small electrical screwdrivers with a neon bulb in the handle
> 
> better yet - a multimeter...?


No but I'm thinking I should have one!


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

My immediate thought is FOR SAFETY, CONNECT THE BLOODY EARTH...... ALWAYS.

Two sources for electric shock:

1. The mains

2. electrostatic.

For protection Both require the earth connection to be good both at the machine and all the way back to where the mains enters the house. Good in this instance means having the smallest resistance possible which is why you sometimes see separate, large diameter, earth wires bonding the pipework under the sink and the sink itself.

Your clean sweep mod on the doser would not create static but I venture that it could do so if applied to the lower burr carrier when the body is not earthed.

I would suspect an issue with the grinder insulation so it might be worth taking it to someone with a PAT tester (misnomer I know). Once you know it is good or otherwise you can consider the house itself although personally I would get that checked too, if you can afford it, just for the peace of mind.

I should probably not suggest this but those of you with old houses without RCD's fitted should at least test or have tested the earth circuits on all the sockets in the house.

I will dig out my old meter, compare it with the current in test calibration of my present meter and perhaps we can get something going for those in need. If all is good then how does this sound:

Borrower pays postage both ways and pays £10 to the forum for the loan. I should be able to throw together some instructions for use.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Sorry to burst your bubble folks , but a neon screwdriver is a waste of time .

If you have received a shock from the outer casing this may indicate a poor earthing arrangement , I can assume you already have probably a few 'class one' types of equipment eg the classic which have not given you any cause for concern before ???

it is possible that you may be recieving a small amount of static built up from the effect of grinding.

i myself can a small amount between my grinder and machine and I am completely confident in my earthing arrangements.

There are many many scenarios of the problem that you are experiencing and it would be impossible for me to give you an accurate diagnosis .

My advice given the information you have given and taken into account how you have said that your fuse board appears to be very old , would be if you are concerned you should consult a qualified electrician to have a look at your electrical installation to give you an opinion on the condition of your wiring .

Like I said it would be foolhardy of me to comment without actually carrying out an initial verification.


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Think you need to get a qualified sparky to check it over.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> If you have received a shock from the outer casing this may indicate a poor earthing arrangement , I can assume you already have probably a few 'class one' types of equipment eg the classic which have not given you any cause for concern before ??? it is possible that you may be receiving a small amount of static built up from the effect of grinding.


This is true, I've never had a shock off the Classic. This was almost immediate, as when I turned the grinder there was a rattling noise from the doser. Instinctively I put my two hands on the doser to see if that would stop it and got a really nasty shock. Certainly wouldn't say it was like any static shock I've had which only normally hurts the body part which gets the shock. I felt this through my whole body, especially my heart. It turns out the rattle was the plate in the doser that prevents grounds from flying out of the bottom of the doser.

@grumpydaddy that sounds excellent. What is the particular device you are talking about called? We have an electrical department at work and I'm wondering if they would have one, they certainly do PAT around our workplace also.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

risky said:


> No but I'm thinking I should have one!


Is the base plate earth connected? I've got a multimeter you can borrow if you need it


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

yardbent said:


> do you have one of those small electrical screwdrivers with a neon bulb in the handle
> 
> better yet - a multimeter...?


I bought a multimeter on ebay recently for £2-odd delivered. Brilliant bit of kit for the money - that's already saved me some garage bills on the car. Worth a look.


----------



## insatiableOne (Jul 29, 2015)

yardbent said:


> just 2p
> 
> if anybody has a slightly vibrating grinder
> 
> ...


I have a sheet of it, used it under my Xbox to keep it from growling.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

This rattle of the doser - I'm betting it was about 50Hz. Sounds like your grinder is live to jive - a 'Major' risk to health. (sorry couldn't resist! )

Seriously if you felt that in your heart it sounds like you were very lucky thank God.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Update on bolt/screw (as I don't have them I'm not sure if they are bolts or machine screws) situation. It is indeed some horrible bastard thread. Guys at work initially thought it was BA which is a virtually obsolete thread form, but it appears to actually be 4.5mm. Unsure of the pitch. Moral of the story is don't loose these screws!


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Reading through this thread the other day I was skeptical of a static shock, and suspected a mains shock. I was going to reply saying as much but thought it so odd that you had managed to get mains running through the body of the machine without the fuse blowing or a spark and some smoke that I figured maybe it was just a bad static shock.

I have been jolted by mains 4 times (once in the face, nothing to brag about) and contrary to popular belief it is very unlikely to kill a healthy human, but you can be unlucky.

If it was a mains jolt it means you have a short to the body of the grinder somewhere, which means its time to check all of the wiring inside the machine until you find the culprit.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Dylan said:


> I have been jolted by mains 4 times (once in the face, nothing to brag about) and contrary to popular belief it is very unlikely to kill a healthy human, but you can be unlucky.


I've stupidly touched live cables a few times, it was a bit scary but probably more the thought of what could have happened rather than the shock itself - that was just a bit nippy*

*awaits death next time it happens


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> I've stupidly touched live cables a few times, it was a bit scary but probably more the thought of what could have happened rather than the shock itself - that was just a bit nippy*
> 
> *awaits death next time it happens


When I got myself in the face my vision went white... scared the shit out of me. I also jolted back and smacked my head on the cupboard above my head, as an extra reminder to triple check I pulled the correct plug.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Be under no illusion folks electricity kills , if you are unfortunate to become attached (muscle contraction ) you will die!

when all off you have experienced a shock you will have noticed that you swiftly pulled away , this is reaction from your muscles contracting and not you pulling away , imagine this in reverse and the same effect but you actually griping something and there will be nothing you can do about it , when you fall to the floor you might be lucky and become detached by the collapse off your body weight , but if not the electricity will keep coming and those muscles will keep contracted .

sorry if you're thinking I'm being melodramatic but please treat it with the respect that it deserves, if you have received a belt take that as a warning , first thing you learn in my world is that complacency kills .


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Thecatlinux said:


> Be under no illusion folks electricity kills , if you are unfortunate to become attached (muscle contraction ) you will die!
> 
> when all off you have experienced a shock you will have noticed that you swiftly pulled away , this is reaction from your muscles contracting and not you pulling away , imagine this in reverse and the same effect but you actually griping something and there will be nothing you can do about it , when you fall to the floor you might be lucky and become detached by the collapse off your body weight , but if not the electricity will keep coming and those muscles will keep contracted .
> 
> sorry if you're thinking I'm being melodramatic but please treat it with the respect that it deserves, if you have received a belt take that as a warning , first thing you learn in my world is that complacency kills .


It can certainly kill in the right circumstances, as you mention if you are unfortunate enough to touch a wire with an open palm (which is why you are taught as a kid to walk with your hands facing toward you in a fire) or if you happen to have a heart defect which you may or may not know about, or in fact if you are just unlucky.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

OK so the plot thickens. The motor is earthed to the baseplate where the electrical components sit. This in turn is earthed to the plug. Doesn't look like the body is earthed at all? Does this seem irregular? I'll need to take it all apart again and see if I can see somewhere that looks like an earth connection for the body.

Anyway I went out and got a multimeter. Ran the grinder and tested various points on the doser, body and motor. Nothing. So either there is a small part of bare wire somewhere which somehow touched the body or it was the worst static shock of my life?

Only other thing possibly worth mentioning was that the rubber feet were not connected. Not sure if this would make any difference?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Dylan said:


> (which is why you are taught as a kid to walk with your hands facing toward you in a fire)


You what?


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> You what?


I hadn't heard that either, the one I'd heard was to touch door handles with the back of your hands rather than the palm in the event of a fire. Not sure how a door handle would become electrified though.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yes I was taught to use the back of your hands to feel your way if escaping from a burning building for the very reason stated - if insulation has melted and caused a handrail or light switch to become live, your muscular contraction will pull your hand away rather than force a vice-like grip onto the conductor. It's not a new one on me - I think I learnt this 35 years ago at a fire station.

Likewise with doors - handle could be red hot if there is fire on the other side of the door. If the door is hot don't open it.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

But if you use the back of your hands and touch something burning, you've then burnt the back of your hands and need to use the front next time.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Anyway never mind this fire talk, what about my electric grinder?


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

A stray strand of cable touching ? not enough to trip but enough to give you a belt ?


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

I can't remember there being an earth on the main casing or doser. On the K30 every bit was earthed, same on the EK.


----------



## monkey66 (Aug 8, 2014)

First off you can suffer from 240v, be careful.

My thought is did you clean off the powder coating where the ground contacts attach and where the different body parts connect. A broken ground and big coil AC motors can do strange things.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

El carajillo said:


> A stray strand of cable touching ? not enough to trip but enough to give you a belt ?


What would trip though? My fuse box is ancient and doesn't have an RCD.



monkey66 said:


> My thought is did you clean off the powder coating where the ground contacts attach and where the different body parts connect. A broken ground and big coil AC motors can do strange things.


There doesn't seem to be any ground connection on the body. I'll check the earth cable from the motor to the baseplate though.


----------



## Andy__C (Nov 4, 2015)

On my jolly, the only ground is to the base plate. If you have had the entire thing powder coated, including the base plate, you might need to sand the area where the ground is connected to the base plate, so the current can pass and is not insulated by the paint... and maybe an area so that the base plate can connect to the main body.

I had a nasty shock years ago when I was into car audio, and didn';t ground my amps properly to the body of the car (grounded them to a painted area of the body work, so there was no actual connection. Like you I left it in my heart and down my left arm... I was concious of it for days physically... like the nerve had been stretched or something.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The Earth on the Royal is to the base plate make sure that is connected properly


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> I can't remember there being an earth on the main casing or doser. On the K30 every bit was earthed, same on the EK.


Would the hex bolts not earth the doser to the casing, and the same with the base to the casing?


----------



## monkey66 (Aug 8, 2014)

Rhys said:


> Would the hex bolts not earth the doser to the casing, and the same with the base to the casing?


Not if they are being insulated by fresh powder coat.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

monkey66 said:


> Not if they are being insulated by fresh powder coat.


But then wouldn't that also stop any currant from travelling into the doser in the first place?


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

If as you say it is an "ancient" fuse box unless there is a considerable fault the fuse would / may not blow. A loose odd strand may not be sufficient to blow the fuse.

Buy a plug in RCD /trip ,plug in socket and test RCD then plug in grinder and switch on, see if it trips. Better safe than sorry.


----------



## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Another Idea for you, if you have a double socket,you could purchase a Crabbtree socket with built in RCD /trip and change your double socket, although you will lose one socket space.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

I picked up a load of Masterplug RCD plug-through devices that were reduced to clear in Sainsbury's.

Checking with the multimeter this morning and if I use it in the mode where it makes an audible tone to indicate a complete circuit, it indicates a complete circuit between:

The motor body and the base plate

The motor body and the doser body

The motor body and the earth pin on the plug

The doser body and the earth pin on the plug

Sounds right?


----------



## hubrad (May 6, 2013)

What about plug live to plug (or body) earth, with switch in both positions?

Should be no connection, obviously!


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Ok will check that shortly.

I notice it has (according to a Google of the symbol) what appears to be called an 'equipotential terminal' on the bottom of the base plate.

Nothing is connected to this. Am I right in thinking this is an optional extra way of grounding the grinder?


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Yep. supplementary bonding of the type found on waterpipes under the sink or on metal worktops for example. Typically uses a single thicker earth cable that runs between items then back to the consumer unit. The idea is to create a path of very low resistance so that in the event of a fault the current flows along that and not through you. Works best when there is an rcd protecting the whole circuit but can help without.


----------



## monkey66 (Aug 8, 2014)

risky said:


> But then wouldn't that also stop any currant from travelling into the doser in the first place?


No. You are dealing with potential difference, induction and capacitance. There are many complex factors that can lead to a potential difference.

Simple answer - strip back some powder coat and make sure all the metal body parts have clear contact with bare metal from its a joining piece. Additionally make sure the mains earth is clearly connected to bare metal.

Do all of this and their should be no ground issues.

Also a meeter bleeping is a continuity test. This is not sufficient for the type of problem you are trying to diagnose as you may be looking for a failure of ground under load which it cannot identify.

Of course you may just have something shorting or mis-wired.

Overall I strongly suggest you put down the meter and address the grounding as I suggested as a first step.


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Good news is no electric shocks since. I did dis-assemble and re-tap the holes so guessing the powder coating getting into the threads might have been causing the issue.

Anyway back to business now and I came across this mod to a Kony which looks promising. As we all know the default Mazzer gauge is useless. While there has been success in making replacement acrylic ones for the Super Jolly and I believe the Major, as far as I know it's a non-starter on the Royal.

This is a different approach which would yield even better accuracy. Courtesy of Rick Bond (The Coffee Machinist) in Oz.


----------



## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

What's going on there?


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Brilliant Idea...... and so obvious when you think about it.

Its a DTI (dial test indicator) guage jeebsy. Fixed to body it measures the height of the adjustment ring.


----------



## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

These are great things to have, for testing and setting alignment etc, but I'm not sure what the point is here. One notch on a mazzer is 15microns, and it's easy to set them to half a notch, ie 7.5microns. This dial gauge probably has a gradation of 10microns.


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Isn't it just a visual representation of grind setting?


----------



## grumpydaddy (Oct 20, 2014)

Yes jonc.

You could get a 1 micron version for about £40 if you really want that sort of accuracy, although you would then likely need a very long adjustment handle arrrangement


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

GlennV said:


> These are great things to have, for testing and setting alignment etc, but I'm not sure what the point is here. One notch on a mazzer is 15microns, and it's easy to set them to half a notch, ie 7.5microns. This dial gauge probably has a gradation of 10microns.


My issue with the Mazzer dial is that it's very rough in terms of lining up the notch or otherwise with the mark on the body. This provides a far easier visual guide as to how much you've moved the collar.

Where are you getting the info from that one notch is 15microns out of interest?


----------



## GlennV (Mar 29, 2013)

It's a 1.5mm thread (which I confirmed by measuring my Major), with 100 notches per rotation. So 1.5/100 =0.015 mm per notch.

It might be useful with a 1 micron gauge, as suggested by grumpydaddy, I hadn't realised these were so affordable.


----------



## monkey66 (Aug 8, 2014)

Dti ...brilliant idea! Looking on ebay now!


----------

