# Lelit bianca spritzing! Help please!



## jonnycooper29

Hi all,

I've been the happy owner of a bianca for about 2 months now. it's a thing of beauty and I love everything about it. Except from the mess it creates every damn time I make an espresso😫

I've tried reducing the OPV to 10 bar, stirring grounds in niche cup before putting it in the portafilter, using a funnel and WDT tool to stir then tamping, I also bought a VST precision basket. What ever I do, it sprays everywhere and because of this obvious channeling, the consistency from shot to shot is all over the place!

what left is there for me to try?

Thanks all!


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## MediumRoastSteam

jonnycooper29 said:


> I've tried reducing the OPV to 10 bar


 What? You should adjust the pump's bypass - it's a rotary pump! - Not the OPV (Expansion valve). Is that what you did?



jonnycooper29 said:


> what left is there for me to try?


 Yes. Put the VST basket away for the moment. Which basket were you using?

Which grinder have you? edit: (I'm blind, sorry. It's the Niche).

Can you do a video of your whole routine, from starting grinding to end pulling a shot.

How long do you leave the machine to warm up for?


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## cuprajake

get rid of the vst-

there a super hard basket to contain, that or just use your double spout filter, let taste guide you rather than the god shot from the pf.


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## newdent

Doesn't the Bianca have the flow paddle? Are you doing a low pressure pre-infusion? I find even a short pre-infusion can help with channelling.

What coffee are you using? I find channelling becomes more of a problem as the coffee stales.

How old is your niche? I was getting the odd spritz from the niche when new but it's settling down as I use it more, I've had over 1kg through it now.

I used to tamp with all of my weight and I now tamp lightly and let the grind size dictate flow and this has helped with channelling.

There's so much that could be going wrong, I think a video as mentioned would help.


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## jonnycooper29

Thanks all, I'll do a vid tomorrow! To answer some of these questions.. I don't mean OPV, I meant the adjuster under the machine, the one that is recommended to adjust. Yes, a niche zero, I was an early backer before it was even released, so 1.5k a month for ~3 years or so. I'll use the other basket for now to see how that goes with my other additions to workflow such as WDT.

the double spout is one solution, but due to channelling the shots vary so one shot might be great but I can't reproduce it.

beans were roasted about 2 weeks ago so I don't think it's that. With lighter roasts I do a long slow preinfusion, but I shouldn't really have to, so I just want to get my prep right instead of trying to mask bad prep with preinfusion.


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## MediumRoastSteam

@jonnycooper29 - I look forward to your video tomorrow. Basket prep is the usual culprit.

How much are you dosing into the VST basket? And which VST basket did you have?

Does your Niche have the disk? I'm the same as you, bought it before it was a thing back in 2018 but I have retrofitted the disk on mine.


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## Mrboots2u

I use a Bianca , light toasted coffee and a VST, its not the baskets fault coffee is channeling, its just the prep is off or the dosed is too high or low etc etc.

The only caveat being 1 15g vst can be a little more challenging .

I use a niche, use flow til it build to about 2 bar in the gauge then use paddle at 3 o'clock get me to about 6 -8 bar.


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## Pasturemaster

I agree with some of the above.
Put the VST back in the drawer and try 18g of coffee in the Lelit 18g basket.
Once you have that dialled in have another go at the VST.
I have found that going to the 18g VST I had to dose up to 18.5g and grind finer with my Lagom.
I drink med to med-dark espresso but lighter roasts have exacerbated the issue.
I found no discernible improvement in the result in the cup so my VST baskets live in a box in a drawer.


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## jonnycooper29

Good morning!

Thats not what I wanted to hear after buying the VST, but never mind😅

I totally forgot to take it out the PF this morning so the video below is with the VST. I dose 18g. I've also retrofitted the niche disc too.

The pour from this shot was probably the best in a while, but regardless, it would be good to see If I'm doing anything terribly wrong in my workflow. The videos aren't great but hopefully give you an idea of what I do!

https://youtube.com/shorts/50grbCuzIg8?feature=share


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## MediumRoastSteam

Right&#8230;

re: VST. It's a harder to get it right, doesn't mean you should throw it away. I've been using one since forever. I would not go back to stock baskets. I much prefer the large hole are and straight walls. To me, the coffee tastes cleaner and flavours are more pronounced. It's not a question of it's better or worse. It's a different type of basket, each gives you different flavour profiles. VST 18g is what I like.

your prep is way over complicated. Taylor would prove you wrong. 😂😂😂

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_and_motion_study

With the disk, the participles are rather similar and evenly distributed as only one or two beans enter the chamber at a time. If I were you:

- grind into the cup;
- dump into the basket;
- WDT in the basket with the funnel, just gently and make it level; (10 seconds)
- tamp (assuming your tamper is 58.5mm)

so, you showed us the prep&#8230; but where's the shot?



MediumRoastSteam said:


> Can you do a video of your whole routine, from starting grinding to end pulling a shot.


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## cuprajake

its the prep,

all the banging, using the finger to level,

have a look at the decent puck rake vid, if it were me, id be snipping the rings off that wdt, and bending the needles closer together, once you have wdt you shouldnt have to bang, and level with your finger.


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## jonnycooper29

Thank you both. I did wonder whether everyone took as long as me to make a coffee😂 the link to the shot is there but didn't embed for some reason. It's not a great vid anyway so I'll do another later today. 
I'll try the new workflow with my next shot and report back😁


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## cuprajake




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## cuprajake

the dosing ring doesnt help much either lol, i have one they sit a bit far into the basket, i actually modded mine so its not as far into the basket, the decent style ones that sit on top are best,


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## HVL87

You've spent a fair amount on a machine and grinder, why don't you invest in a tamping mat 😄 it will make your life a lot easier.

I have this - it's very solid and allows you to place a bottomless PF flat on the edge:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Cafelat-Corner-Tamping-Mat-Pack/dp/B003KTR4EI/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=cafelat+tamping+mat&qid=1626165064&sprefix=cafwlat+t&sr=8-3

Nothing wrong with a VST basket. As Jake mentioned it's worthwhile finding a funnel which sits on the outside of the basket so it doesn't leave a gap around the coffee. In the meantime, if you have a tamping mat you can just tap the PF once on the mat after removing the funnel and it will level the grounds.

I had that WDT tool and found it made the extraction worse. A tool with 0.4mm needles is ideal and you'll find it much easier to use.


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## Tamperbay

Grind finer I say. Your pick prep looks fine if a bit OTT. I have a niche and just stick the grinds cup into the portafilter basket, shake it up and down and then level with my finger and tamp and never have a problem with an 18g vst basket in a bottomless portafilter. Either that or your pressure is too high, an issue I used to have with a Gaggia Classic but not now with a modded Oscar to 9 bar.


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## newdent

I'll echo some of the comments on here. I'm not as experienced as them but I use the same grinder and don't have issues with channelling, so assume I'm doing something right!

- I don't do any distribution in the cup, I give it a quick shake and a tap to make sure nothing is stuck to the sides and then all the prep is done in the basket.

- Agree with Jake regarding the funnel, I also modded mine so that hardly any metal goes down into the basket. Took a few mins with a dremel. I fully recommend a magnetic funnel as otherwise it can lift slightly during prep and get coffee stuck under it, which is annoying and messy.

- Also not a fan of the big loops on on the wdt tool and I also use the spiral technique and as mentioned on the decent thread, I alter the depth throughout the spiral ending with only the very top being stirred at the end.

- I'm a big fan of the spinning levelling tools. You can get them for £23 on amazon https://www.amazon.co.uk/Coffee-Distributor-Leveler-tool-Distribution/dp/B077BZ4CV6 The chances of channelling from an unlevel tamp are high so why risk it.






- I used to do a single tap on the counter to get any excess coffee on the funnel to fall into the basket but in general I try to avoid tapping as much as possible


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## MediumRoastSteam

newdent said:


> I used to do a single tap on the counter to get any excess coffee on the funnel to fall into the basket but in general I try to avoid tapping as much as possible


 I agree with this. I give a tap to the funnel to dislodge the grinds, but I don't thump the PF on the counter to level, not anymore.



newdent said:


> I'm a big fan of the spinning levelling tools.


 I was. Been using one for ages. But recently I ditched it, as I find it has no real benefit for my current prep routine. These days I just tend to level either by using the WDT tool (puck rake, whatever it's called) or by means of sideways tapping. I found that, for me - using a Niche Zero with a disk - both work well.

However, for consistency sake, I would strongly recommend the WDT tool and the levelling tool. It allows you to "get there" and understand what goes on.


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## newdent

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I agree with this. I give a tap to the funnel to dislodge the grinds, but I don't thump the PF on the counter to level, not anymore.
> 
> I was. Been using one for ages. But recently I ditched it, as I find it has no real benefit for my current prep routine. These days I just tend to level either by using the WDT tool (puck rake, whatever it's called) or by means of sideways tapping. I found that, for me - using a Niche Zero with a disk - both work well.
> 
> However, for consistency sake, I would strongly recommend the WDT tool and the levelling tool. It allows you to "get there" and understand what goes on.


 I just quite liked using the leveller and knowing that the puck was always going to be level. I can't use it any more because my cafelat robot has a deep basket, so I now have to level by eye with the wdt tool. I find if I ever do get a spritz, it's because I've tried to use too much pressure after the initial 8/9bar peak, I much prefer a slightly declining pressure profile. It seems that as the puck degrades during extraction, it's more vulnerable to a spritz or a channel opening up. That why I'm surprised the OP isn't making more use of the paddle on the bianca. I always pre-infuse, for darker roasts it's very brief, sometimes only enough to see the puck saturated and before any drips to avoid bitterness but for lighter roasts, I prefer grinding much finer and using a longer pre-infusion of 15s ish.

OP, what beans are you using? Sometimes I find that some beans are just a nightmare and cause issues that others don't. I've watched many of the decent videos where they state that the medium+ roasts just hold integrity better through the shot and can take whatever pressure you throw at them but light roasts - not so much.


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## Mrboots2u

To the OP , again just my experience with same machine and gridner.

Presumably the basket is as 18 vst you are using

I dont see any real benefit in stirring in the cup and then in the funnel . Funnel stirr should be fine .

Re tool used , I use a mini whisk where I have cut the ends off.

Re levelling tool , i see no benefit to them at all if you can get it level via tapping.

Re tapping side to side to level bed , see no real problem with this ( its what I do )

Re Tamper that the Bianca tamper its a good fit.

Would help to see a shot extract and how much flow and pressure you are using,.


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## 29244

One things for sure, it's not your machine so you can relax about that.

It's puck prep.

I really don't like the look of your puck rake with the o shapes on the end. Maybe they are OK, but to my mind they are so big they are shovelling grinds as opposed to distributing them, creating small channels that squirt coffee out.

Having your pressure set so high (too high) and using vst baskets is making your job harder, those factors magnify the smallest of defects.

Bite the bullet and get a levercraft puck rake, the 4mm needles are thin enough to distribute and not shovel them (my phraseology). You've spent a lot on your machine so,don't compromise on your puck rake tools.

Best wishes for a smooth, thick squirt-free pour.


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## urbanbumpkin

15g VST is cruel mistress😀. 18g VST or a stock 15/16g basket is more forgiving.

Just find which ever prep works best for you (you don't have to do the lot). WDT is a good sanity check, I'm a fan of the levelling tool too


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## Stevebee

Agree with what most have said / recommended.

1. Funnel that does not sit in basket. You can buy them like that rather than modifying one that doesn't

2. WDT with appropriate tool, LeverCraft or Decent Puck Rake are 2 good ones, thinner needles, or get some printer nozzle/acupuncture needles and a cork and make your own. I've got these 2 plus 2 home made (0.3mm and 0.35mm). The bed should be level after that. WDT with the funnel in place

3. Don't really need a distribution tool once it's level but I would recommend a levelling tamper for consistency. Many out there, Decent, Bravo,Force, Kafetek or cheaper end Normcore. Or Chinese copies. Take the romance out of tamping but they do ensure a level tamp. No need for calibrated ones as tamp pressure has less effect after a few kg.


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## jonnycooper29

Once again, thank you for all the replies and great info. I made another coffee earlier following the advice of you all and it's definitely better, it's a bit early to say it always works, but that shot was definitely better in terms of channelling.

I'll give it a go tomorrow with a WDT tool I made without the loops on, and if that works I'll snip the loops off the proper one.

Someone mentioned a rubber mat, and if any of you were particularly eagle eyed you may have noticed I'm in the middle of redoing my kitchen. Which means stuff is in boxes all over the house, including my tamp mat😂

I also mentioned I adjusted the max pressure to 10 bar, I was wrong, I lowered it to 9. Also, the VST is an 18g one and the beans I'm using are Origin Resolute at the moment. I tend to stick to medium+ roast and no lighter.


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## Sindaco

Thanks everyone. I have the same set-up as *jonnycooper29 *(Bianca, Niche, VST 18g) and exactly the same issue. I was trying to understand in which forum to post...glad to have found this explanation.


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## Rob1

I have a similar setup to you. 18g VST, Minima with paddle on the group, Niche.

I find long pre-infusions introduce inconsistency even if shots appear to flow well from the basket. I use a low flow allowing pressure to slowly rise and when I see beading across the basket open up to full flow.

Your distribution appears to be the main problem. Too much tapping on the bottom of the portafilter imo. I stir with the same tool as you but do so quickly and then a couple of taps sideways and once down on the counter to get a level bed.


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## jonnycooper29

Ah no, just as i thought i had sorted it, two espresso shots where more ended outside the cup than in! My new workflow is grind into niche cup, quick shake because of static, then tip into PF with funnel in place (ive ordered a funnel that sits on top rather than in, due to be delivered tomorrow). I then use my WDT tool with the prongs cut off, so just straight needles now, quick stir working from deep to shallow and finishing with flat and fluffy bed of coffee. Tamp with supplied tamper that fits well, lock PF into place and pull shot.


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## MediumRoastSteam

@jonnycooper29 - A video of the whole thing would be great 🙂


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## Stevebee

@jonnycooper29 one thing that reduces static is spray the beans with water , or a few drops, before grinding. Not sure if it will help with spritzers but static reduction definately.


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## cuprajake

@DavecUK water and the niche burrs ok. I can't remember


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## Rob1

Don't spray the beans with water with the Niche. You'll mess up the coating of the chamber. You're not having issues because of a small amount of static, especially not using the grinds cup and using WDT.

Some beans are just harder to work with than others, you might be getting some basket holes clogged rather than having channeling through the whole puck. If the shots taste like they're extracted properly but don't look good with a bottomless PF there's probably not an issue. Using a spouted portafilter and seeing if you can notice any difference between shots is a good way of removing any confirmation bias.


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## Pasturemaster

Good to hear you simplified your puck prep, it should help.
Did you try the Lelit basket?


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## Stevebee

Rob1 said:


> Don't spray the beans with water with the Niche


 Good point. Didn't spot he was using the Niche. I only RDT on large flats as on the Niche the static is negligible in comparison.


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## newdent

Agreed, at the very least a video of the pour (view of underside of basket) would help loads and the prep also an added bonus.

I assume you know better but just in case, I have some friends with expensive machines but aren't really into the prep side of things (think bond making a coffee on the la pavoni) so I won't assume anything. My mates were once describing a pour as channeling when it was clearly just a gusher, there was no pressure build up, it was just rocketing through the basket. What I'm saying is, are you grinding finely enough? You can still get channeling when grinding too fine, so I kind of prefer to grind on the coarser side and work back towards finer because I'm happy to reduce the pressure and pull the shot for longer if it's evident the grind is too coarse and tend to waste less shots, I find it's harder to save a shot that's ground too finely.

What sort of pressure are you seeing on the grouphead pressure gauge during the shot?

There's definitely something fishy going on here. I can't see you've got any significant issues with prep, it must be the grind size, beans or pressure/temp issue. What grind setting on the niche, what temp is the PID set to?


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## jonnycooper29

Here are some more vids, and yes I know I need to dig out my tamp mat from the attic, but it's just too warm up there at the moment😂






https://youtube.com/shorts/UuFL4qIMP0Q?feature=share
The video of the shot won't be embed so you need to follow the link and it's also not from underneath, I can do another if needed!


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## MediumRoastSteam

@jonnycooper29- It feels to me:

- Your dose is too high. Try 1g less, if not 2g!
- I hear your WDT scraping the bottom of the basket: I'm not sure that's a good idea;
- Don't do any tapping;
- Tamp on a flat, solid surface rather than a towel. 
- Grind a bit finer.

See if that makes it better.


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## Rob1

Also tamp once, not multiple times (I know it's difficult to get out of the habit). You need to make sure the tamper is level which will come with practice and it will help tremendously to tamp on a level surface.


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## newdent

I'd quite like a view of the underside or of the pressure gauge, the inbetween view isn't as helpful.

I think the rough surface of the puck that's visible before your final tamp is something I've only seen when grinding too coarse. It certainly seems to flow through the basket quite quickly too. Could be that the beans are starting to stale also.

That tamping setup looks a nightmare tbh, an extra step but could you remove the basket and tamp on something flat until you've got your mat from the loft? I tamp my basket on a plate, it stops me from tamping too hard (I have to tamp the basket because I'm using a robot).

Don't think this will make any difference but is there any reason why you've got the funnel in place when pouring the grinds in? Seems like it would be way more secure to put the cup straight into the basket and add the funnel after the grinds are in. Maybe there's a reason why but I can sense how delicate an operation that flip is!

The pour doesn't look bad though. Some beans with less oil seem to spritz a bit more in my (limited) experience.


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## jonnycooper29

Right, the drama continues😂 I tried a lower dose to no avail, but have taken on board all other comments, which hopefully you can see in my new workflow vid. The output? A mess. I'll try grinder finer later and let you know!

Puck prep

Messy shot


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## MediumRoastSteam

@jonnycooper29 - that dose looks really high to me. How much was in there?

feels to me you are grinding too coarse.

when have you last cleaned your Niche? Is the top screw tight, in the sense that the disk is not spinning on its own?


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## DavecUK

@jonnycooper29 Way too coarse......


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## jonnycooper29

It was 18g, but would look like a lot of the grind was way too course as Dave says.

Gave it a thorough clean a couple of weeks ago, and the top nut is firmly secured. Bianca is heating up now, so I'll put the grind setting to the test shortly!


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## NeilW9

Hi - I'm new to the forum and having a similar issue as was described in this post so hoping for a bit of help.

Until recently I owned a Sage Barista Express for about a year when I started getting more interested in coffee. I mostly enjoyed it and felt I learned a lot but ended up getting very frustrated with its inconsistency and being unable to diagnose why I was getting (what seemed like) random issues amongst occasional good shots. After about a year I upgraded to the Lelit Bianca and Niche Zero grinder which I've had for about 2 weeks now. I've also watched several days worth of coffee videos in the last year!

I'm having a few problems getting started (more than I was hoping for given the financial outlay!) and I am very sure the issues are related to my technique rather than the machines. Although in fairness I did realise after a week that the screw at the top of the Niche Zero was loose which I'm sure didn't help.

Anyway - to start with I'm just trying to get a consistent, solid shot out of the Lelit before I start messing about with the paddle and this is proving frustratingly difficult. I actually started with a couple of solid shots but since then haven't been able to recreate this.

What I'm using/doing:

- 18g dose in 14-18g basket in bottomless portafiler

- Coffee is light-medium roast from monmouth and about 10-14 days since roast (I stored in vacuum sealed container so it shouldn't be a stale coffee issue)

- Technique is to grind into niche dosing cup, transfer to portafiler, use spinning distribution tool (I bought this to try and help get it flat) and then tamp with the Lelit tamper using a tamping mat.

- Lelit is on factory settings of 10bar at pump and 95C water temp.

The issues:

- I can see plenty of evidence of channeling - particular around the edges of the portafilter (tiny holes in the puck afterwards, spritzing, uneven flow through bottom of portafiler). Coffee also tastes harsh/bitter despite extraction time being only around low 20 seconds for a 2:1 ratio. Its been hard to keep an eye on everything at once but the pressure at the group head also drops fairly significantly over the shot (again I think another piece of evidence for channeling).

The ask:

- Is there anything else I could be doing to help fix this problem. I am of course hopeful I'll get better with practice (my tamp I'm sure could be better in terms of levelness) but I'm also mindful that its madness to keep doing the same thing and hope for a different outcome. I could get a WDT of some sort I guess but I was wondering if there's something else obvious I'm doing wrong as I am hoping to keep the prep process to a minimum...

- The Niche zero is calibrated and set at 14. I don't think its primarily the grind size that its the problem but I'd be happy for someone to tell me otherwise. I started a bit finer but tried to make coarser in case that was causing the issue but didn't seem to make much difference.

I can also make a video and post it later of the prep and the flow through the puck as I imagine this would help. Appreciate any insights anyone has as I'd be lying if I said I wasn't a touch frustrated at this point!


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## Evergreen88

20 seconds feel like a very quick extraction. Have you simply tried to grind finer and get around 30 seconds?


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## NeilW9

Evergreen88 said:


> 20 seconds feel like a very quick extraction. Have you simply tried to grind finer and get around 30 seconds?


 I did try that actually on one I just made an hour or so ago. Had previously been making small adjustments to grind without much impact so made a big change finer just to see and it did slow the shot down a lot to pull in 33secs which I guess is perhaps a bit long but better.

I would say that the shot looked quite a bit better (by no means perfect and still some evidence of channeling) but the flavour was still pretty muddy/bitter (but this might be partly due to the grind). Think I will go a touch coarser again and play around with it to see if I can keep getting better looking shots that also taste half-decent.

thanks for the input


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## NeilW9

Hi There, 

Further to my previous post, I've been experimenting with my Lelit Bianca/Niche Zero to try and get rid of the channelling issues but I'm still struggling and hoping someone can help me out. To try and make this a bit easier, I've linked a video of the puck prep and shot below.






This shot actually tasted ok - not really sour or bitter, but definite muddiness in the flavour. I can see some pretty strong evidence of what I think is channelling so really looking to try and improve this so that I can get cleaner extractions. 

I've had the machine about 2-3 months now and feel like it's gotten a bit better but I'm still really struggling to get rid of channelling which I feel like is happening in the large majority of shots (to varying extents). Its at the point where I've almost accepted I need to pay someone from the nearby coffee school to come over and help me troubleshoot. The shots sometimes taste good but its of course very frustrating to not be able to repeat this even if all the settings are the same.

As a last ditch attempt...I wanted to see if anyone in the forum could help highlight some obvious mistakes I'm making/areas for improvement. Really appreciate anyone's input on this.

I've tried a lot of different things to improve it without much success but some highlights as follows:


I am pretty confident that the issues are all coming from my inability to distribute well. I am hopeful that its not the grinder or machine after the financial outlay!
I bought the distributor tool and continue to use it but don't feel like it makes much difference in limiting channelling issues. More so it gives me a level bed to tamp on which makes it easier for me to get a level tamp each time, which I struggled a bit with initially but feel like I have improved on.
I tried a home made WDT tool for a while but didn't feel there was any noticeable improvement
I reduced the pump pressure to about 8.5-9 bar as machine was set at about 10 bar when it arrived which I have read can make channelling issues worse.
To date, I haven't really tried to use pre-infusion (either by programming it or by using the paddle). The reason for this is that I am really trying to set a repeatable baseline of a good shot. I feel like if I introduce manual pre-infusion then its going to add in more variables and make it even more difficult for me to identify what I'm getting wrong. I am thinking about setting a programmable pre-infusion to try and see if this helps (as that would be repeatable).
I'm trying to distribute the grounds with the least amount of tapping as I found (non-scientifically) that the channelling seemed worse the more I tried to tap to distribute.
I suspect that dosing straight from the cup to the portafilter may be causing issues so perhaps a dosing funnel could help? In the video I shared, to me it looks like coffee comes through more in a ring around the edges which is possibly because using the cup stops the coffee going right to the edges. I am using the provided lelit tamper so I would expect its a distribution rather than tamping issue. I'd be curious to know if anyone who has the Niche/Lelit combo is able to dose straight from the cup and if there's a technique to this I'm missing.


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## Mrboots2u

Niche and bianca user here .
Re distributor , I dont think they make much difference here.
Use the pre infusion via the paddle, its there to help with channeling


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