# Barista Express help required (pump or flow issue?)



## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

Hi everyone, first post and one made out of a fair bit of frustration with our Barista Express. We've had it for two years and, until recently, all was well. But recently, it's started misbehaving and I want to check that it's not due to our 'process' having drifted before I get it sent back for repair. It could very well be us!

*Background*

We typically use Lavazza beans - usually Crema e Aroma, but sometimes Rossa or Super Crema depending on what offers are on. We tried fancier locally roasted options, which were good, but we end up going back to the Lavazza since we can always get it and it's very reasonably priced and seems to last well.

We only ever use the double shot, single wall filter, and found (in the past) that a grind of 3 or even 2 was usually necessary, in combination with roughly 18g weight of coffee, to get a decent cup with good crema and the right pressure (around 12 on the pressure dial). We're no experts, but enjoy a nice cup of coffee and we've tried to be methodical in our approach, using the razor to determine the right amount of pressure (figuring that the weight is correct, the grind is quite fine and it all sort of works out well).

*Problem*

Recently, we've been having problems getting a decent pressure and/or actual amount of liquid when pulling a double shot. I read that about 60ml is about right, and previously that's roughly what we'd get. However, now we're often getting 35-40ml or - sometimes - the extraction fails, no indicated pressure but doesn't get past the first 'phase'. We can press the double shot button again, but we get an unsatisfactory pull with little or no indicated pressure. Without the filter fitted, i.e. just the head, the machine dispenses around 75ml of water. We live in a very low scale area, use only filtered water and - for good measure - I'm cleaning the head with tablets once per week, and I've descaled thoroughly twice in the past month. We're still not getting the expected amount of liquid and/or indicated pressure during the pull.

I've been in contact with Sage - the machine is only just outside of its warranty, and to their credit they're happy to repair under the warranty - but before I go to the hassle of sending it back, I want to be sure that it's not me messing up here before I waste their (and my) time.

Are there standard diagnostic things I can try to see if I have a problem with either the pump or flow meter? I've reset the programme back to default - 30/60ml single/double - as per the manual - and everything looks otherwise okay. We get good clean pressure from the steamer, and other than this pull inconsistency, everything else seems fine.

Does anyone know what would cause the machine to 'abort' a pull after only a few seconds (with no indicated pressure)? A pump issue? Something else?

I'm well aware that there's an art and a science to getting the best out of a coffee machine such as this, but this is a weird one since nothing else really changed in our 'process'. We're still using the same beans, same grind settings, the amount is the same, but now what worked previously doesn't.

Thanks everyone, I'm hoping that this is in fact something we're not doing correctly rather than a problem with the machine, since I don't want to be without coffee 

john


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Pull the shot manually and see what happens. Press and hold two cup for 7 seconds, release, let shot run for say 29 seconds, press it again to stop. What's the result?


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

Hi - I'll try that in the morning (too late for coffee now  ).

I do know that if I do the manual shot thing with an empty filter, it behaves differently on my machine than on other people's machines - holding the two cup for (say) 7 seconds as you say, when I release the two cup button it will automatically cut off after about 10 seconds (without requiring a second press).

I'm also going to try some different (inexpensive) beans, since the only thing that has changed, really, is we are on a new batch of beans from a different supplier (though still the same Lavazza). Could be a dodgy batch, maybe?

Will post back in the morning, thanks.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Could be, although Lavazza from the supermarket are what we call 'dead beans'. They don't behave like fresh beans so it's hard to gauge as to what they should be doing. You are the best judge as you've used them before.



oktapod said:


> I do know that if I do the manual shot thing with an empty filter, it behaves differently on my machine than on other people's machines - holding the two cup for (say) 7 seconds as you say, when I release the two cup button it will automatically cut off after about 10 seconds (without requiring a second press).


 That isn't right. Unfortunately I don't know enough about the insides to offer much advice with that I'm afraid.


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

I think I'll get some fresh beans locally and try them. I hear what you're saying about the Lavazza, but to be honest they've behaved well enough in the past. We tend to buy online, though; perhaps we've been lucky in the past and this time we've got an old batch or something like that. Or maybe we're not storing them properly (once opened the bag is sealed and stored in an airtight tupperware container in the fridge)?

I'll report back once I've tried some things. I can say at least that it's not a scale issue, nor a weighing issue.


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

OK - I think I have two separate problems. One is that this batch of Lavazza beans must be past their best, despite being a new bag. Let's put that issue to one side; annoying though it is, I can't blame the machine.

I definitely have a second problem that I need advice on. I'm not sure of the exact terminology, but it seems that when I press the single or the double shot buttons, I'm not getting as much actual water as I should be. I tried a programme reset (even though I had never set any custom settings) but this hasn't solved the problem. Trying the manual method, you'd think that it would avoid this problem, but unlike the video where the guy shows how to manually pull a shot, my machine still cuts off the flow around 7-10 seconds after releasing the button (i.e. the second phase).

This gets me thinking if this has always been a problem with my machine that I've effectively worked around without realising, since I know that the pull time has always been on the short side, and whilst we got pressure broadly where it should be, and everything tasted okay, I'd generally have a double shot out in under 20 seconds.

I've been out earlier, but am now warming the machine up to try some experiments with some inexpensive locally bought M&S beans. I know that these won't be wonderful, but it's all I could get hold off until tomorrow when the local roaster opens. I'm still suspecting a problem with the flow, but let's see what I can get out of these beans.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

OK, several things here.

Tomorrow I will run plain shots of water and see how much in ml I get out. That will tell you if your water volume is off.

Secondly, the machine cutting off after 7-10 seconds regardless is not right. If you can't run more than 10 seconds it won't matter what beans you have, that's the no.1 problem to fix.

20 seconds for a double shot is way too fast. However at least the machine ran to 20 seconds before!

Those M&S beans will be the same as Lavazza but see what you can ascertain. Once you get fresh beans, rest for 7-10 days and see how they behave (if you haven't sent machine off of course).

Re: Storing beans...for Lavazza/M&S it won't make a difference, do what you've always done. If you think you will switch to fresh beans, proper storage is essential. The 'go-to' here is the Airscape cannister.


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

Hi - just to confirm, the machine cuts off after 7-10 seconds when dispensing only water (i.e. no ground beans), and seems to dispense a fairly consistent 90ml of hot water in manual mode (with the double shot button) before cutting out, which makes me wonder if there's a 'maximum' amount that it will dispense if you don't press the button again to stop it.

With beans, I need to try this again and sacrifice a double shot to see what happens if I use manual but don't stop it, to see what the weighed amount actually is.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

OK, sorry maybe I didn't understand. Stopping after 10 seconds with just a single press and nothing in the pf is normal. If you put your ground beans in pf, lock it in, hold the 2 cup for 7 seconds and release, the shot should run until 60 seconds is up, that's the maximum. Of course you want yo be stopping at around 36 seconds and you should have the right weight. Playing with the grind is then the next step.

Just pressing the button once with no pf in, I get about 90ml too.


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

OK, that's good to know. It might be - and I'm man enough to admit it - that the problem is ME and not the machine 

I got those M&S beans, set grind to 2 (as a starting point, probably not far off tbh), measured 18.2g, tamped carefully, did all the right stuff, and did the manual double-shot, 7s pre, then measured the dispensed shot. It definitely took longer than the Lavazza, and the pressure was right at the top end of the gauge, and I stopped at about 40g. Sadly, I didn't time that bit but it definitely (for once) took more than 20s. I'm going to try the Lavazza again, it could be that I've jumped to conclusions based on inconsistencies in either the beans, or my technique, or probably both.

Let me thank you for your help so far. I'm hoping that it is me and not the machine, since I really don't want to send the machine off (even if Sage are kindly honouring the warranty beyond the two year point). For all its fickle-ness, I rather like my BE


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

OK, tried with the Lavazza, 18.2g again, tamped fairly hard, pulled a shot, pressure looked bang on but ended up at over 40g within 15s, so either the beans are bad, or I need to adjust the internal burrs. Since the machine is two years old, and is used perhaps 4-6 times per day, could it be that something has slackened off?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Normally I'd say you need to grind finer, slow down the output. But the trouble with dead beans is that 'normal procedure' doesn't apply, they're not constant. So the next shot might be slower, but the one after faster due to the inconsistencies of the beans.

Not sure about slackening off however from day one my BE never ground fine enough. I had to adjust the inner burr. There's a Youtube video in the Sage forum (in the sticky) about how to do this. Make sure it's all cleaned out and you are comfortable before you proceed if you do do that. I think my inner burr is set to 3, possibly 4.


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

Short update: I adjusted the inner burr and we're almost 100% sorted. Sure, the BE doesn't seem to work properly on automatic shot mode any more, not sure why, but doing the manual shots with inner burr set to 3 as advised, we're getting broadly spot-on extraction in about 35 seconds with 18g using either the Lavazza or M&S, ground at external grind setting 2. We also bought some local roasted beans, which I'll try tomorrow. I'm still deliberating getting Sage involved to see about investigating the automatic issue, but I daresay it might not be worth worrying about now.

Once again, many thanks for all the advice


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

oktapod said:


> the BE doesn't seem to work properly on automatic shot mode any more


 It's almost certainly something to do with needing a reset. Mine cuts out after 10 seconds or so too, but that only started happening since I put it in manual mode. I would suggest keeping it in manual mode as it gives you more flexibility. If you get into the world of fresh beans you'll fine some like longer extractions than others, plus having a set time means weight output and extraction time are all over the place.

Sounds like you're set for now but maybe call Sage and see if it's a timer reset issue, they'll talk you through how to do it.


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

Short update - it's off with Sage's recommended service agent here in the UK. Hopefully should have it back by the end of next week, will see what was wrong then....


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## oktapod (Dec 27, 2021)

It's been back for a few days, Sage covered the cost of the inspection and repair, and the flow meter was indeed faulty. It's now behaving itself again, and as a side-effect of all my faffing, I am now a more consistent and knowledgeable home barista


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