# Dialling in long steep brews



## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

I'm a newcomer to this forum, have been lurking around for a while and am very excited to finally join!

Inspired by multiple posts here, I've recently been playing with (and enjoying) long steep brews. I still have a few questions that I couldn't find answers to in the past posts, and I'd appreciate your insights.

I do my long steep brews in a Clever Dripper. I've seen a suggestion to grind at a finer end of drip or even coarser end of espresso. Can anyone with experience with the Comandante grinder give me a range of possible settings? I've seen 16 clicks described as medium and at the same time recommended as a setting for 1 minute Aeropress recipes. I've tried 15 clicks, which produces grind distribution that looks similar to Square Mile's sample for French press, so perhaps I'm in the right ballpark? The brews at 15 clicks and 30 minutes steep time were good, but I'm wondering if they could be even better (e.g., sweeter) if I steeped longer or ground finer. As an experiment, I tried 12 clicks and 30 minutes today. This produced a cup with a slightly different flavour profile (still not bitter at all), and I'm not sure yet which I prefer, but I also noticed that wetting the grounds became harder and took me nearly 30 seconds (doing water in first) and I'm a bit worried that I have to do too much stirring. Are there any tips here?

Do you adjust the grind size for a given coffee? Or do you stick with a fixed setting on your grinder and adjust the brew time? I've seen a suggestion to taste the top of the brew towards the end of the steep and terminate it when it tastes right. If I'd like to stay within 30-35 minutes steep time (I'm afraid beyond that the coffee will become a bit too cool for me), should I try to dial in the grind size? Without a refractometer, if I chose to keep the brew time relatively fixed (but long) and dial in the grind size, what hints could I use to guide the process? How do I know e.g. that I've gone too fine? My feeling is that because immersion methods are hard to over-extract (and I now buy into that), I won't hit that wall of bitterness and astringency I hear people like James Hoffmann are talking about.

I'm curious: How do you dial in you long steep brews? I feel I could stick to a fixed grind size and steep time, and be relatively happy with the cups that produced but a part of me would continue worrying that I'm not fully unlocking the potential of a given coffee.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Unfortunately there is no reliable way of converting a grind size to clicks on a Commandante.

I don't adjust grind size for different coffees, because it's not needed.

You can't guage grind size by what it looks like.

For a 30min plus brew, 15-20s stirring (more like dappling, sinking at the surface) should do. I sometimes add 2/3 of the water, then coffee then use the reamaining pour to incorporate the dose into the slurry.

If 12-15 & 30min+ is good, with no bitterness, try a little finer. When you have gone too far you'll start to feel powdery/filminess on your tongue & a charred/paracetamol like bitterness. At the end of brew, just let the Clever drain out, don't be tempted to clonk it & tap it to get every drop of liquid out, as this can increase silt in the cup.

To dial in, brew at 65-70g/L and keep going finer until brews get worse & go back to last happy place.

Clever loses heat quickly, so extraction drops & you're always fighting to get a high enough extraction, at a temp hot enough to drink, so just aim for a strike rate of good cups, rather than "fully unlocking the potential". But you can brew very drinkable/sweet/rounded/balanced cups this way. Preheat servers & cups for end of steep.

Maybe go for more soluble coffees like Kenya, Rwanda & Colombia?


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

Great advice, thank you very much, Mark!

I will continue to experiment with the grind size and see how the recipe behaves with other, more soluble coffees (so far, I tried it on Ecuadorian and Brazilian coffees).

Mark, I've noticed you recommend lower doses, closer to 55g/l for other long steep methods (Sowden, French press, Aeropress) but not for Clever. I'm curious why that is?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

manzyuk said:


> Great advice, thank you very much, Mark!
> 
> I will continue to experiment with the grind size and see how the recipe behaves with other, more soluble coffees (so far, I tried it on Ecuadorian and Brazilian coffees).
> 
> Mark, I've noticed you recommend lower doses, closer to 55g/l for other long steep methods (Sowden, French press, Aeropress) but not for Clever. I'm curious why that is?


 The other brewers also struggle with heat retention & have a tendency to under-extract if you go too heavy on the brew ratio. I do use ~65g/L with insulated French presses.

I found 55g/L was all I needed to get a ~1.3%TDS brew out of the Aeropress, you might well get a decent result a bit stronger.

I'd also guess that when the bed in the long steep Clever has settled over 30min or so, it makes a very good filter medium, so lower coffee to water ratios can result in a thinner cup, even if the extraction is on par. The others can get away with 55g/L because they have more suspended solids & body.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

Brewed another cup this morning at 12 clicks. This time I tried to kind of fold the grounds into water and finished in 20 seconds. Previously, I would gently stir the grounds aiming at a uniformly light brown surface with no dry patches. With a coarser grind a few quick sweeps across the surface with a spoon would be enough and I could see the grounds submerged and would be reasonably confident that there are no dry clumps. Achieving a similar state with a finer grind required more stirring, and I suspect that as a result I might have been overdoing it. This time I stopped once all the grounds looked wet but the surface looked less uniformly coloured, with darker patches. I was less sure there were no dry pockets. Also, unlike my previous long steeps, there was still crust after 15 minutes. It largely dissipated by 30 minutes though, leaving a few thin clouds. Interestingly, the coffee bed was more even, whereas previously I would typically see the "high and dry" picture (not that it worried me much).

Sorry, this was a lengthy description, I feel it would be better to demonstrate it with a short video or a photo. I know I'm obsessing too much about details that probably don't matter but I'd be curious to see your "wetting technique" 

The cup was lovely, I'd say sweeter and more balanced than previous cups of the same coffee. No bitterness or off flavours Mark mentioned above. Nice clean finish. I'm done with this particular bag of coffee (Jorge Tapia from Workshop Coffee, FWTW) and next lined up is some coffee from Rwanda, so before tightening the grind size further I'll check how it behaves at 12 clicks.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

So, I've tried going as far as 10 clicks with two coffees, both of which happen to be from Rwanda, and I'm a bit stuck.

First, the difference between 10 and 12 clicks in terms of taste is barely noticeable, to my palate anyway. Both settings produce quite sweet cups without unpleasant bitterness, but I'd say bitterness is the dominating flavour that overpowers everything else. It still tastes nowhere near charcoal or paracetamol but it mutes any fruity or floral characteristics, which I'm able to get with the same coffees in V60. The cups are not disgusting (I drank them all) but they are not particularly flavoursome either. With Brazilian coffee that I had before, the combination of sweetness and bitterness, and a kind of familiar average coffee flavour, produced comforting and enjoyable cups, but I find these Rwandan coffees somewhat underwhelming.

How do I debug this? I'm inclined to try grinding coarser (I haven't explored the range 13-15 clicks at all with these coffees). Or should I persevere and grind still finer and/or steep even longer (I'm at 35 minutes more but could go 5-7 minutes longer), and expect a magic thing to happen?

By the way, I've started using a mini whisk to stir the grounds. It seems to allow me to wet the grounds fairly quickly without stirring them too aggressively and to break up any clumps.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

Not sure what I'm missing or doing wrong, but I'm slowly getting frustrated with my long Clever Dripper brews. I've tried a fairly wide range of grind settings with 3 different coffees (Ethiopia, Cost Rica, and Rwanda) and 30 to 40 minutes steep times, and I'm rarely happy with the results  Finer settings (12-14 clicks) sometimes produce good cups with one coffee but cups with hints of charcoal-like bitterness with another, and with slightly coarser settings (15-18 clicks) the cups start to taste kind of similar and generic. I'm not very skilled at pour over, but I've often found my V60s more interesting. I'm wondering if something is wrong with my technique.

For the sake of an experiment, today I've made a brew in an insulated Thermos mug: 19.6g / 350ml, 20 clicks (coarser than any grind I used so far for long steep Clever Drippers; as a reference, I'm using 24 clicks for @MWJB's V60 recipe), water (rolling boil) in first, add the coffee, stir gently several times, and seal with the lid. Even after 78 minutes the temperature of the slurry was above 80C. The surface was clean, with just traces of foam along the walls (unlike Clever Dripper, which usually has significant clouds of grounds floating on top even after 40 minutes). I discarded about 30ml from the top and poured about 260ml into a cup.

Much, much better! Lots of sweetness and discernible fruity notes. Very clean cup with just a tiny bit of silt at the bottom. I worried the coffee would taste stale like it often does with Clever Dripper, but it didn't. Really the first cup in a long row of immersion brews that I truly enjoyed.

Do you think the result was better because I was able to let it brew for much longer, twice as long as I normally do in Clever Dripper? I think after 40 minutes the temperature in the Clever is around 60C. (I started with 30 minutes steep time but noticed that even after 35 minutes the coffee still was too hot to enjoy immediately if decanted into a preheated cup, so I now leave it until 40 minutes.)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

@manzyuk Unfortunately, I don't know what grind size 12-14 clicks gives. But clouds of floating grounds suggests too coarse, a little dark scum (about as appetising to look at as it sounds) should be all there is. Try not to disturb it.

I would avoid less soluble coffees (Costa Rica, some Ethiopians, Brazil, Guatemala) with long steep Clever, you're pretty much always fighting low extraction. Looking at my recent longer Clevers, best results were with Colombians & a Yemen, all best scores (8/9) were highest extractions. The Rwanda should be a good candidate.

I brew long steep insulated French press at 60min+ with a grind in the region of what I also use for V60 (1 cup, bloom, plus 6 pours). It likely tastes better than Clever because the increased heat retention allowed higher extraction, whereas Clever's heat drop limits practical steep time, as much over 40min can result in too cool a cup even with preheating the cup.

It's tempting to wobble the Clever, or lift it on/off the cup at end of steep, to get last drops out, but I place it on the cup/server & just lift it straight off at dry bed. I don't want to increase silt in the cup (the most likely cause of bitter tastes in a steep, along with lower than maximum extraction).

Sorry, missed the previous post & comment about mini whisk. What I do is add the coffee to the water already in the Clever & just gently dab just at the surface. Just enough to break up any obviously dry clods, but not enough to sink the grinds, I just want to see that all that floats is wet. Takes 10-20s.

Alternatively, I add 2/3 of the brew water, coffee in on top, then pour the remaining 1/3 gently, eliminating any dry clods, then lid on & ignore until end of steep. I suspect the coffee particles can break up further during the steep, especially towards the end, increasing bitterness if agitated beyond wetting. I have kettles with small minimum boils, so I can pre-weigh brew water & not have to worry about precise poured weights.

Bear in mind, that I am enjoying low extraction, short, coarse steeps just as much as the longs steeps at present (different target & perhaps less clarity). So, if you're getting despondent, maybe try a new approach?

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56871-clever-dripper-60s-steep-20g-dose220-230g-water/?do=embed


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

Thanks a lot, @MWJB!

I will definitely try your short steep recipe. I had some good (but alas not very consistent) results in the past with 1 minute steeps in the Clever but with medium rather than coarse grind and the normal brew ratio, 60g/l. It didn't occur to me to try a coarser grind and updose.

Interesting remarks about what the surface should look like at the end of the brew and how that suggests my grind may still be too coarse. The official Comandante guide suggests 10-15 clicks as the espresso range, but I've seen people using 6 or even 4 clicks for espresso, so go figure. I know the drawdown time shouldn't be taken into account when dialling in the grind size but can it be relevant that my drawdown times are never longer than 1 minute, approaching 1 minute with 10 clicks and as fast as 20 seconds with 14 clicks. Would you accept it as a hint to grind finer?

I used to tap and clank the brewer to get the last drops of coffee out of it but following your advice I stopped doing that. Now I gently place the brewer on top of a cup and gently lift and remove it when it finished draining. I'm hoping I've eliminated this source of silt.

I'll play more with long steeps in the Clever but now I'm also keen on buying a nice insulated French press


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

manzyuk said:


> I know the drawdown time shouldn't be taken into account when dialling in the grind size but can it be relevant that my drawdown times are never longer than 1 minute, approaching 1 minute with 10 clicks and as fast as 20 seconds with 14 clicks. Would you accept it as a hint to grind finer?


 Sub 1 minute draw down for a long steep would seem to suggest too coarse a grind. My 15g to 225g brews (20min, otherwise too cool) average 1:10 and are up to 2:00. For full Clever, 3-5 minutes wouldn't be unusual.

My preferred insulated French press is the Bodum Columbia with plastic & silicone mesh.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

MWJB said:


> Sub 1 minute draw down for a long steep would seem to suggest too coarse a grind. My 15g to 225g brews (20min, otherwise too cool) average 1:10 and are up to 2:00. For full Clever, 3-5 minutes wouldn't be unusual.


 This does suggest my grind is too coarse! Wow.



> My preferred insulated French press is the Bodum Columbia with plastic & silicone mesh.


 Thanks for the recommendation! Is the smallest pot (350ml) appropriate if I'm planning to brew a single cup at a time, or should I look for at least 500ml?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

manzyuk said:


> Thanks for the recommendation! Is the smallest pot (350ml) appropriate if I'm planning to brew a single cup at a time, or should I look for at least 500ml?


 350ml will be fine. I have a 500ml (really only 400ml in practice) but I'm not crazy about it as it is wide & shallow, easier to stir up silt when pouring.


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## manzyuk (Feb 8, 2021)

A small update here: I tried a couple of 40 minute steeps in Clever Dripper with the finest grind that Wilfa Svart, the other grinder that I own, can produce (with the hopper turned all the way to the left), and they were delicious! I think even 8 clicks on Comandante, the finest grind I used before, wasn't fine enough. With the finest Wilfa grind, my drawdown times were around 3:20 (for 20g / 300ml brews), and the taste finally met my expectations. Very sweet and clean. Pouring 2/3 of the water weight, adding coffee, and pouring the remaining 1/3 on top of the grounds to wet them is a really nice trick!


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