# Machine + grinder for ~£2500?



## greggy (Nov 14, 2021)

Hi all, have been reading this forum for a while, finally decided to pick your brains a bit before I commit to something dramatic.

I've been a V60/aeropress drinker for a while and I'm quite happy with the brews I produce at this point (using Aergrind as my grinder). Hence I've been itching to get into espresso for about a year - my family don't love filter and prefer turkish coffee or milk drinks, which I can't produce.

I've set my budget at around £2500 + another £250 for accessories (tamper/scale/wdt/etc.) and was pretty much ready to pull the trigger on Lelit Elizabeth + Lagom P64 with unimodal SSP burrs (as a starting point so that I could use the grinder for both filter and espresso for now, then maybe add high-uniformity burrs later). However I stumbled onto the ad here for ACS Vesuvius, which I could pair with the Niche for about the same amount, and now I'm really confused.

If I were to get the P64, I doubt I would ever upgrade my grinder again and would just swap out the burrs if I wanted/needed to, but would eventually look to upgrade the Elizabeth (5+ years on). With the Vesuvius, I would not upgrade the machine (unless Decents became similarly priced/easily available) and would look to buy a second filter-focused grinder relatively soon (maybe next year).

I'm the type that really enjoys the tinkering and the "science" that the machines like Decent and Vesuvius provide but I realise that they can also be overwhelming, so Elizabeth would be a simpler option to master the basics before delving into pressure profiling, etc.

Would appreciate your thoughts, thanks!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@greggy - welcome to the forum. The best thing you can do is to get what you want for your budget, and understand what you want from your setup.

if you want convenience and ease of use, maintainability etc, Elizabeth + niche can be what you want. Now, if you want to query about pressure profiling, and end up with an end gamer, the Elizabeth is not the machine for you.

In my opinion, with no offence, your strategy is shot, and I can see a compromise straight away, and I bet it will bug you one month after you order your kit. For instance, if you go with the V, you have a great machine, but, will you then be asking yourself whether you should've bought the Lagon?

If you go Elizabeth + Lagon, and then decide to upgrade the machine later, you'll lose some considerable amount of money, and will be wondering why you didn't buy machine X in the first place.

so, questions:

- what do you expect from your setup?
- what's the usage frequency?
- are you willing to lubricate, maintain, etc?
- is fast heat up important, or are you happy with a timer/smart plug?

Welcome to the forum, and I hope you are not even more confused! 👍😊


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

@greggy Welcome to the forum! You can't go wrong with any of the machines and grinders, which you have short listed.

The ACS and Niche or P64 would be the perfect choice. I doubt, if you will have an urge to upgrade as they will serve you well for a very long time, assuming you look after them well and the water is sorted.


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## greggy (Nov 14, 2021)

@MediumRoastSteam thanks for your thoughts! My dream setup would be Decent + Lagom P64 but there's no way I could afford (or justify) a Decent at this point. Therefore you're right that there's a compromise - either I get a 7/10 machine and 9.5/10 grinder (Elizabeth + P64) or 8.5/10 machine and 8/10 grinder (V + Niche). (bear in mind these numbers are just random qualifiers in my head for this single comparison in a vacuum, I'm not trying to rate any of this gear).

I'd be using the machine a couple of times a day - more on weekends/if I have people over, although not necessarily back to back. I understand that E61 group head needs warming up so I'd add a smart plug (I think V has auto switch on option). I don't love the idea of maintenance though, and I've read that Elizabeth is much simpler in that regard.

Thinking about it, I have a feeling that it's easier for a beginner to have a simpler process - quality input (beans/grinder) and fewer levers to master, and then when (if) I get good enough at the basics of dialing in, puck prep, steaming, etc. I could start looking to upgrade the machine.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@greggy - if you are after simplicity, the Elizabeth won't let you down. Besides, you have fast warm up time, and a few parameters you can play with, such as pre-infusion. There's also the Profitec 300 and the Rancilio Silvia Dual Boiler, but I never used or had a coffee from them. The problem with the ring group - rather than E61 - is that that's it. You can't add a thermometer, or pressure gauge, or a flow control valve if you want that sort or thing in the future. Or there's the ACS Minima, for a similar price, but a different machine in that respect. 😊


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee (Feb 18, 2021)

greggy said:


> Decent + Lagom P64


 People love Decent. However, we have a convert on the block. @Denis S has Decent but also the Evo. He thinks Evo is a top act compared to Decent.

If you want simplicity, liz, minima and evo are your choices. The Evo will be an end game for you. It has a shorter warm up time of 16 mins and very easy on maintenance.

You have not told us anything about your water. No point spending '000s and feed the machine with hard water. This should be sorted before getting an espresso machine.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@greggy Welcome to the forum


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## Eiffel (Apr 3, 2021)

I've been through similar girations earlier in the year (I ruled out the Decent on price and on approach as I didn't want another IT piece of equipment) and settled on the Evo with the Niche grinder (Not having an interest in pour overs made this an easier choice).

There is no perfect solution. The Liz has some attractive features (quick warmup, easy maintenance routine, preinfusion), but is ultimately limited compared to the other machines discussed here. The minima (which can be upgraded with a pressure profiling kit) is in the same pricing range, but is ultimately more flexible (manual profiling for not much more money) if you're OK with the look, noise it makes and the warmup time. The regular Vesuvius is a bargain at the moment, but the automated profiling feature comes at the cost of immediate feedback/control and a more complex maintenance routine compared to the Minima (and it also costs more...). In a cafe setting this would be a great choice, but I'm less convinced in a home environment. Moreover the Evo Leva costs only slightly more and combines pretty much all the benefits of these other machines (it won't let you design automated profiles with the flexibility of the regular Vesuvius, but the stock profile is a winner and it can be tweaked at the margin very easily in ways that are most relevant - preinfusion duration and pressure, temperature profiling, nudges via the lever and potentially spring removal).

As to grinders, I guess the Niche may not be perfect, but it should be possible to sell it down the road relatively easily (as it's a well known and reliable product).


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