# Any view on this Ascao model - steel duo pid?



## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

http://www.ascaso.com/div-espresso-coffee-machines-grinders/steel-3.html

It isn't really clear if this uses a thermoblock type group head rather than a boiler. It has some rather interesting and very tempting features though.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Please buy one and tell us all about it..........


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## M_H_S (Jun 6, 2018)

It seems to state in the link that it is thermoblock based.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

> The steam pressure in the first 10 seconds is superior with the boiler system but, as no water is added, that pressure runs out over time. *With Thermoblock, the pressure is continuous and unlimited.*
> 
> The boiler system is much less reliable in terms of element durability. Lack of water causes the system to 'struggle' when using steam services. Additionally, in the boiler system, use of a steam service requires the user to fill the boiler manually afterwards.


Oh we laughed....what nonsense. I also loved the bit about a 20 bar pump....wow!

https://www.bluestarcoffee.eu/ascaso-steel-uno-pid-2587-p.asp

A mere 1020 euro or £910, for a dual thermocock with PID....looks like a fine machine, even cheaper than a Minima with it's 2.3 litre boiler that will soon run out of steam according to Ascaso....and a rubbish 800ml brew boiler.... instead of a thermocock.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

LOL Seems is the right word. Looks like it can brew at 15 bar so I would have thought thermoblock is rather likely. I don't mind that. It just mean a bit more care looking after them

I think they have used thermoblock for steam for some time - not sure - so they aught to know what they are doing with them. Price wise it's comparable with a certain other machine and shows signs of sensible progress. No need to have the cup heater on for instance. Descaling some machines needs an acid bath and total dismantling so what if a steam thermoblock needs removing to clean the pipes thoroughly.

Moi buy one. I'd rather @DavecUK did and gave me a run down on it.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't use steam much anyway. I have tried to get more info on the thing. Last time I tried nothing was available but I think it's relatively new.

If it does what it says I'm surprised that they aren't easy to get.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> http://www.ascaso.com/div-espresso-coffee-machines-grinders/steel-3.html
> 
> It isn't really clear if this uses a thermoblock type group head rather than a boiler. It has some rather interesting and very tempting features though.
> 
> ...


From your link my guess is it uses a alu & ss thermoblock.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ashcroc said:


> From your link my guess is it uses a alu & ss thermoblock.


That's some inspired guessing there.....as for buy one and review it...hahaha. I wouldn't review it if it was free....can you imagine the soul destroying nature of reviewing something like that. It's hard enough to get the gumption to review a machine that has nothing at all special about it...let alone that. Engineering reviews are easier of course. they can range from



> It's shite don't stock it...I'm not going to even bother reviewing it, shall I put it in the bin or do you want it back!


To 1 or more pages depending on how bad it is....normally a 1 pager means it's crap.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It certainly looks like it does - I asked a certain uk Ascaso agent about it - reply oh ours uses a boiler. Really helpful and over charges on postage too.

Some enlightened retailers provide links to manuals etc but often on coffee stuff nothing of real use what so ever.







Makes you wonder what they are trying to hide. I'm more inclined to say get up off your arse and do the job properly.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> That's some inspired guessing there.....as for buy one and review it...hahaha. I wouldn't review it if it was free....can you imagine the soul destroying nature of reviewing something like that. It's hard enough to get the gumption to review a machine that has nothing at all special about it...let alone that. Engineering reviews are easier of course. they can range from
> 
> To 1 or more pages depending on how bad it is....normally a 1 pager means it's crap.


There is a bit of a problem there - there are several things that are special about it. Good bad coffee machine - hard to say these days as things may not be as they appear. I doubt if it pressure profiles but it does have infusion of some sort. People can brew at any pressure they like - more range than most. I've seen volumetric mentioned - how good that is might depend on how it's done. And wow it has PID.







Actually having drunk out of a Piccino .................. but then Fracino have been around for a while - that allows them to build up a repertoire of interesting tricks that can result in a decent taste.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> There is a bit of a problem there - there are several things that are special about it. Good bad coffee machine - hard to say these days as things may not be as they appear. I doubt if it pressure profiles but it does have infusion of some sort. People can brew at any pressure they like - more range than most. I've seen volumetric mentioned - how good that is might depend on how it's done. And wow it has PID.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did engineering tests (quite extensive) of both types of Piccino!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I just viewed the ordinary Piccino use, maintenance and ease of getting parts if needed. I'd imagine parts wise it's reliable and some bits are used in other machines. Maintenance not so good due to descaling - one aspect of that is the steam boiler always being at steam temperature even if drain taps were added, or pipes etc pulled out to drain. It can be circumvented but many wouldn't want to do what would be needed. They suggest rather regular changes of a filter and factory services. This isn't dissimilar to many machines.

On taste etc I tried to achieve the same as I could get out of the BE not realising that I was brewing at 15bar on that. So same taste - no, same quantity of coffee no. Nice drink though and I noticed that initial coffee flow is rather dark. Might be by accident or design but to me it seems to work and can produce a decent drink. I assume initial flow is on the hot side and cools. I haven't the facilities to check. Easy to get decent pucks too as per a BE.

It doesn't suite me mainly because there is no hot water and buttons come at a cost. I'd wonder if in practice PID would offer that much improvement over what they achieve on the model without it - purely from a taste point of view. I didn't notice any temperature surfing problems probably down to how I used it.








Anyway back to Ascaso. There is a manual of sorts on their web site. Can't say that I am thrilled with it but it does indicate it has a cleaning mode but doesn't really say much about it. Trying to descale a steam circuit completely at steam temperatures IMHO is a joke. No signs so far of parts diagrams.

As an aside I have usually been working for a company that could easily cough up several million quid if worth while so have to view coffee stuff leniently. BRG though as something else.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It seems that they haven't published a parts diagram for it yet and that the factory is shut until 1 Sept.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

ajohn said:


> It seems that they haven't published a parts diagram for it yet and that the factory is shut until 1 Sept.
> 
> John
> 
> -


As long as people buy it John...they're happy


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> As long as people buy it John...they're happy


That could be a comment for the other thread you started. What's different for many many things?








I wasn't offered some ones mobile number so that I could order one now.

John

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## Dumnorix (Dec 29, 2017)

It's the organoleptic characteristics that the 20 bar pump allows you to extract that made me chuckle....


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Dumnorix said:


> It's the organoleptic characteristics that the 20 bar pump allows you to extract that made me chuckle....


I particularly like that...I found it even slightly narcoleptic..


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

What the devil is this:



As well as the traditional filters, Steel features the latest coffee-making technology, with the new '
​
*super-froth*



' filter for an extra-frothy espresso.
​


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

MildredM said:


> What the devil is this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My best guess would be some sort of pressurised basket.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

It sounds a fantastic machine...way beyond me. I can think of a few machines like that.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Dumnorix said:


> It's the organoleptic characteristics that the 20 bar pump allows you to extract that made me chuckle....


If you want to brew at 15bar, which it can then a 15 bar pump could be a bit iffy.








Unusually extensive vocabulary for a Spanish company that has a £12m plus turnover.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> It sounds a fantastic machine...way beyond me. I can think of a few machines like that.


Super froth is where it's at! It's the new flat white


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

ajohn said:


> If you want to brew at 15bar, which it can then a 15 bar pump could be a bit iffy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As a multitude of coffee machines have been brewing at 15 bar (pressurised baskets) for many years, why would it be iffy ??


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The pressurised baskets I have used give 7 to 8 bar. On the DB just short of the OPV opening. On the BE a lot short as the OPV doesn't open until 15 bar. The BE's pump will go over 15 bar. Saying 20bar may be hype but what's new about hype. They started off by making spares for all espresso machines so may make the lot themselves.

This one brings out the OPV so no need to open the case. They mention 8 to 10 being optional but show that it can go to circa 15 bar.







I miss my BE 15bar MM.

I saw a comment some where about Ascaso esspresso machines in the UK. More or less said that no one really pushes them here so not many about. Also that this isn't the case in other countries - pass on which ones or if that's true.

LOL I might get tempted but

Do I have use prissy coffee cups with it - that's not me. Looks like I needn't but what clearance does it have under the portafilter

If volumetric - how. I have wondered if Sage just count pump strokes.

Heat up time including grouphead. The boiler version they did was pretty quick but much slower than thermoblock can be.

E61 sized baskets - I think it does use those but they have used other sizes on other machines.

Where does the OPV output go. Into the drip tray on a BE, acceptable but back to the tank is better.

Apart from that it does what all of them do - heats water, stuffs it through some grinds and into a vessel to drink it out of. It can also steam and produce hot water. So that comes down to what it offers in that respect. Bells and whistles on brew in particular. It has the usual ones compared say for instance with Sage, dual thermoblock rather than boiler







Assuming that's correct.







Could it look like a DB - no, that lot have a £666m turn over. There 12m doesn't sound too bad but a lot is probably spares. Do I want an Italian bling machine - no.

John

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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Well that's that covered off.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Well that's that covered off.


I really hope so.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

Why is there such a rave here against the Ascaso steel PID?

Thermoblock machines in general aren't bad, the tech behind it is also proven to be good.

They have their advantages and disadvantages, just like machines with boilers.

The Ascaso is pretty unique, compared to other thermoblocks. It has adjustable PID, externally adjustable OPV, preinfusion ,active cup heating, and a nice design. The quickmill evo comes close, but it has no adjustable OPV, no cup heating, and a lousy design. The Breville/Sage thermoblocks often use a uncommon 54mm portafilter, and the availability of spare parts and accessoires is not that good. Active cup heating is also not available.

In the german Kaffee-Forum the Ascaso gets some good reviews, also in comparison to the quickmill evo 70. And thermoblocks in general also get quite good reviews there.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Guess it might be a cultural thing. I tend to think of a coffee machine as being of traditional design, with good steaming capacity. Granted, you do not need a machine costing thousands to make good coffee, but somehow it is like asking someone who drives vintage RS2000's to jump out and try this new 4 wheel drive Subaru......it just is not going to work! thermoblocks and the like are a compromise and if you have to compromise, fair enough.....if you do not, then why would you?


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

ASCASO Steel UNO PROF with thermoblock was my first espresso machiny. If you have any questions feel free to ask.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

pj.walczak said:


> ASCASO Steel UNO PROF with thermoblock was my first espresso machiny. If you have any questions feel free to ask.


My main reason for the post was to try and get a general opinion of the machine - flaws mainly. There is little point in people who have never been near one posting really.

I do know that some earlier models had a brew temperature problem - they make great claims on that aspect on the duo pid. Steam power due to wattage may be less than certain Sage models that use a thermoblock plus any etc concerning use such as heat up times.

LOL Cars, having driven both if I want to get from A to B through many twisty turns as fast as possible I am well aware of which on I would choose. Also in a straight line actually. Handling wise of what I have driven only a mid engined Lotus is in some respects better but lacks the shear power.

John

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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Is this thread still going....oops I've done it again


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

The one with PID is pretty stable regarding the temperature. (+-1,5C).

They have regular commercial group from bigger ASCASO machines.

Not sure how they are now priced in UK, but in Poland in my opinion DUO PID is now too expensive, I would just go for regular HX.

Steel UNO Prof, might be good choice for someone looking for simple easy to use espresso machine.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

pj.walczak said:


> The one with PID is pretty stable regarding the temperature. (+-1,5C).
> 
> They have regular commercial group from bigger ASCASO machines.
> 
> ...


It's priced a bit over a Sage Dual Boiler but in some ways offers much the same. I'd agree that it's probably a bit over priced. I like a rapid heat up time as the DB offers. Looking on their web site it is likely to be faster maybe as quick as Sage thermoblock machines. Steam power may be down on those but they insulate which may help with that. Within reason that doesn't matter to me as I don't use it much. I do use hot water a lot as I prefer the water in the tank to be turned over regularly. I also make my drinks by button pushing and wouldn't mind switching to lever switches.








So in short it could be a viable alternative to a Sage DB with no possible parts problem except that some may be a long way from the UK. Ascaso do seem to be able to deal with that.

John

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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Funnily enough the older model used to be a very decent, relatively big boiler "saturated" SBDU, think a much better made Silvia that came with a Gicar PID.

At 1000 euro/pounds you can buy a QM Silvano Evo which has a 400ml boiler for coffee, a newer model Gicar PID and a thermoblock for steam.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

But I don't see why it's an advantage to have 400ml boiler instead of a thermoblock, especially for non professional use at home.

Why should I constantly heat up 400ml of water, to extract a total of 50ml espresso.

Thermoblocks have shorter heat-up times, and no "left-over" water in a boiler, that isn't used for a longer time.

They also don't collect much limestone compared to boiler-machines.

I bet most of us can't tell the difference in the cup between a thermoblock and a boiler machine.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dev said:


> Funnily enough the older model used to be a very decent, relatively big boiler "saturated" SBDU, think a much better made Silvia that came with a Gicar PID.
> 
> At 1000 euro/pounds you can buy a QM Silvano Evo which has a 400ml boiler for coffee, a newer model Gicar PID and a thermoblock for steam.


I did look at Quick Mill. For me they get interesting when there is a separate hot water outlet also hopefully volumetric control. That seems to relate to their higher end but they come with a built in grinder. The other aspect which it's hard to get info on is the mug height they can take. Same with most makes even the Ascaso. Adding a hot water outlet pushes the price of all of them up.

Heat up time matter for me as well. Sage DB - switch on, weigh the beans, grind in a mazzer mini with lens hood and "a bit" of brushing - use a distribution tool - tamp and the machine is up to temperature.







The grinding is rather slow on a mini used this way. I've never timed heat up before, Just did, took 2mins so that is about how long it takes me to prepare the portafilter.







How time flies, doesn't seem that long. The Ascaso may match that or be even quicker. My BE was up to temperature much quicker than that and having used it I don't have any worries about thermoblock machines.

John

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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

hifimacianer said:


> But I don't see why it's an advantage to have 400ml boiler instead of a thermoblock, especially for non professional use at home.
> 
> Why should I constantly heat up 400ml of water, to extract a total of 50ml espresso.
> 
> ...


I'm going to live it at this: if themoblocks are better why are they only employed in lower end machines?

If you end up with 50ml in the cup it doesn't mean you ran just 50ml through the boiler/thermoblock.

Silvano has been tested with a Scace device and is extremely temperature stable. Don't know if anyone tested a thermoblock equipped Ascaso.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

ajohn said:


> I did look at Quick Mill. For me they get interesting when there is a separate hot water outlet also hopefully volumetric control. That seems to relate to their higher end but they come with a built in grinder. The other aspect which it's hard to get info on is the mug height they can take. Same with most makes even the Ascaso. Adding a hot water outlet pushes the price of all of them up.
> 
> Heat up time matter for me as well. Sage DB - switch on, weigh the beans, grind in a mazzer mini with lens hood and "a bit" of brushing - use a distribution tool - tamp and the machine is up to temperature.
> 
> ...


There's quite a few wrong with your post and I don't think I can cover it all. If the display on the pid says the temperature is reached within a few minutes that doesn't mean the group is up to temp and it usually means the intrashot temp drop is going to be pretty severe.

Using a commercial conventional flat burr grinder for single dosing is just wrong. There a very good reason you can't find a cheap single dosing flat burr grinder.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dev said:


> There's quite a few wrong with your post and I don't think I can cover it all. If the display on the pid says the temperature is reached within a few minutes that doesn't mean the group is up to temp and it usually means the intrashot temp drop is going to be pretty severe.
> 
> Using a commercial conventional flat burr grinder for single dosing is just wrong. There a very good reason you can't find a cheap single dosing flat burr grinder.


The group on a DB is heated separately. On the BE as with the Ascaso the themoblock sits on top of the grouphead so heats it directly. I have no idea how long the Ascaso takes. The portafilter does need preheating although on the DB I've found it makes negligible difference when using it's bottomless. It makes a very noticeable difference using the standard portafilter on both the BE and DB. That can be done by leaving it in for a period of time say 10 to 15nmin but I do it another way that takes circa 30 sec.

Single dosing with a mazer grinder fitted with a rubber lens hood and a funnel is actually moderately popular but a bit more tedious than some videos imply. Single dosing like this is also done on several other grinders but the funnel makes it somewhat easier to do. It's not an easy thing to fit to some grinders. I also use another grinder with it's hopper on that has a timer. Time difference using that and getting the same dose accuracy as weighing in isn't significantly different.

So in some ways there is far more wrong with your post.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

dev said:


> I'm going to live it at this: if themoblocks are better why are they only employed in lower end machines?


Decent use thermoblock s so they're definately not restricted to lower end machines.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> I'm going to live it at this: if themoblocks are better why are they only employed in lower end machines?
> 
> If you end up with 50ml in the cup it doesn't mean you ran just 50ml through the boiler/thermoblock.
> 
> Silvano has been tested with a Scace device and is extremely temperature stable. Don't know if anyone tested a thermoblock equipped Ascaso.


I din't say that thermoblocks are better in general. But they have their advantages for home use, where the maximum espresso amount per day is relatively low. The boiler-tech is well proven, and of course it has it's edges in certain use cases. But the fact that most high-end machines use boilers, doesn't mean that they are really necessary.

High-end machines for home-use are like SUVs, that are only used to bring the kids to school and never ever see a gravel road. Of course they are comfortable, but a Vauxhall Astra wouldn't be worse for the use case.

Since PID is used in lower end machines too, the gap in taste and reliability of the shot between low and high-end machines is getting lower and lower. I know someone with a Quickmill 820 thermoblock (with no modifications), that makes better espresso than most cafes with high end machines in my hometown. And it's even on par with the few cafes here where the bearista knows what he does.

The high-end big boiler machines are more forgiving, thats a big plus. But for the home use a thermoblock is often enough.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

You make some pretty gross generalizations and subjective appreciations without any actual numbers or examples to back then up.

I haven't seen what's the thermal stability of a thermoblock machine tested with a Scace device for consecutive shot.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

I don't know of such a test for a thermoblock machine.

But for me, the main argument is taste - the espresso has to taste good.

And when I visit my friend with the QM820, I don't taste a difference between the first or the fourth shot.

They are all very good.

It's all about knowing the machine. Where is the problem to wait a few seconds longer between two shots?

As I said - there are many users out there, who just pull two shots in a row in the morning, and maybe in the evening.

Most users don't serve espressos for bigger groups on a regular basis. And for this purpose, a thermoblock machine is absolutely capable.

Especially the newer ones with PID.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Taste is extremely subjective and somewhat irelevant if the person doing the tasting prefers medium or darker roasted coffee and the coffee he's tasting is from a lighter roast. And lighter roasts have to be extracted a certain way to make them shine.

Since I prefer lighter roasts I would never consider a machine that can only do 25-30 second extractions at 20! bar.

Coffee is quite a complex product and someone looking for an espresso machine has to look beyond convenience if the result in the cup is very important.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> Taste is extremely subjective and somewhat irelevant if the person doing the tasting prefers medium or darker roasted coffee and the coffee he's tasting is from a lighter roast. And lighter roasts have to be extracted a certain way to make them shine.


That's what I meant with 'certain cases', where bigger machines with boiler etc. (may) have their edge. But not because they heat the water with a boiler, but because these machines have other features.

I think the QM820 (without PID) has it's problems with lighter roasts. Newer models with PID are probably better in this regard.

As good as a big boiler machine? I honestly don't know! Differences can also have other reasons than the boiler (pressure profiling, Preinfusion etc.).



> Since I prefer lighter roasts I would never consider a machine that can only do 25-30 second extractions at 20! bar.


1. The brew pressure at the Ascaso Steel PID can be adjusted

2. Why shouldn't it be capable to extract longer than 25-30 seconds?



> Coffee is quite a complex product and someone looking for an espresso machine has to look beyond convenience if the result in the cup is very important.


Of course it's complex, but in the end it's no rocket science.

There are a few parameters that have to be done right (on the machine): brew temperature and pressure.

Then there are parameters that make the extraction more convenient/reliable, like heated groups, preinfusion, or pressure profiling - but this has nothing to do with the way the water for the brew is heated.


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## pj.walczak (Sep 6, 2017)

See attached.

Machine: Dream PID

Thermoblock temp set: 100C

Pressure: 9 bar

Doppio

The rows on the top (1-14) this is the number of the shot.

Time below: is the time between the shots.

Column A illustrates the seconds of the shot.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Basically the water temperature varies quite freely between 80 and 100 degrees during a shot. In some cases you start at a reasonable 92-93 degrees after it shoots to almost 100 and drops back to 96-97.

This is a very special machine indeed certainly not designed for light roasts.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I've no idea where 25-30sec at 20bar comes from. Nothing to do with thermoblocks. The fact that I noticed a taste difference between 3 drinks made on the trot has nothing to do with them either. It was just due to using a cold portafilter. Same effect on a DB and a Piccino. Most people seem to recognise that getting the portafilter hot one way or another is a good idea on the other hand if some one makes one drink and always starts from cold they are likely to get consistency but with a different taste to what it would be if it had been heated correctly.

The only reason I noticed the effect for certain was by making 3 drinks on the trot and tasting each one. I had wondered as I either make 1, 2 or 3 and the last one was always mine. All I did to solve the problem was to run a shot through an empty pressurised filter basket. I wanted to speed up the total heat up time of a Piccino the same way but unfortunately bought a gaggia basket less the bit of plastic theirs needs. Should have bought a sage 58mm as they don't need the plastic part. The boilers on that machine heat up pretty quickly. The boiler is mounted directly on the group head so that apart from the shower screen stuff and the portafilter heat up more quickly than some other styles of machines.

Thermoblocks and cheap machines? That isn't always the case. The price of various styles of machines varies in any case and the term cheap might be used by someone who spends far more on a machine than most other people do. Cost also depends to some extent on how many will be sold. Sage for instance have spent rather a lot of money on tooling for their machines. They sell lots compared with many others so that cost is spread out more. HX machines are generally cheaper than dual boilers so they are cheap too. Dual thermoblocks will cost more than one.

Thermoblocks do have one definite problem especially when used for steam and that is scale. I tend to look at that as an engineer. Obvious problem so why isn't there a facility there that would definitely get rid of it. A bit like many boiler machines a complete descale may need a spanner, more correctly generally on boiler machines it will need a spanner. A so called engineer descale.

John

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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

hifimacianer said:


> That's what I meant with 'certain cases', where bigger machines with boiler etc. (may) have their edge. But not because they heat the water with a boiler, but because these machines have other features.
> 
> I think the QM820 (without PID) has it's problems with lighter roasts. Newer models with PID are probably better in this regard.
> 
> As good as a big boiler machine? I honestly don't know! Differences can also have other reasons than the boiler (pressure profiling, Preinfusion etc.).


The first prerequisite for an espresso capable machine is stability and having at least a set point. In most case that's temperature because if you don't have at least a temperature stable machine it's quite hard to get repeatable results.



hifimacianer said:


> 1. The brew pressure at the Ascaso Steel PID can be adjusted
> 
> 2. Why shouldn't it be capable to extract longer than 25-30 seconds?


2. Because you have no way of influencing water flow from within the machine.



hifimacianer said:


> Of course it's complex, but in the end it's no rocket science.
> 
> There are a few parameters that have to be done right (on the machine): brew temperature and pressure.
> 
> Then there are parameters that make the extraction more convenient/reliable, like heated groups, preinfusion, or pressure profiling - but this has nothing to do with the way the water for the brew is heated.


It can be rocket science if you really want it. As you can see from the table above, the Ascaso doesn't do temperature right.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> 2. Because you have no way of influencing water flow from within the machine.


But that's not different to boiler machines up to a certain price range!



> It can be rocket science if you really want it. As you can see from the table above, the Ascaso doesn't do temperature right.


Look at the video in this thread:

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/quickmill-silvano-pid-shows-temperature-drop-while-pulling-shot-t24584.html

The Silvano is also not "stable" in the first few seconds, the temperature rises fast in the first seconds, and then rises slowly from 197 to 199 F.

The ascaso is not different here.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

hifimacianer said:


> I din't say that thermoblocks are better in general. But they have their advantages for home use, where the maximum espresso amount per day is relatively low. The boiler-tech is well proven, and of course it has it's edges in certain use cases. But the fact that most high-end machines use boilers, doesn't mean that they are really necessary.
> 
> High-end machines for home-use are like SUVs, that are only used to bring the kids to school and never ever see a gravel road. Of course they are comfortable, but a Vauxhall Astra wouldn't be worse for the use case.
> 
> ...


Your cafes are either using cheap coffee or your friend is using expensive coffee. The cafes might also have cheaper grinders, or they might have dull burrs or they might not be set correctly or the machine might not be that clean or the coffee could be going stale depending on how much volume they do (you didn't mention what grinder your friend has vs the cafes). Just to point out the espresso machine isn't the only variable.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

Rob1 said:


> Your cafes are either using cheap coffee or your friend is using expensive coffee. The cafes might also have cheaper grinders, or they might have dull burrs or they might not be set correctly or the machine might not be that clean or the coffee could be going stale depending on how much volume they do (you didn't mention what grinder your friend has vs the cafes). Just to point out the espresso machine isn't the only variable.


That's what I wanted to say - you can use expensive machines, but you have to know how to use it to make a good espresso. And if you know how to do it, you can even get great shots from cheap thermoblock machines.

Btw - the cafes I was talking about mostly use expensive machines and grinders, but they often simply don't know how to use it properly.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

hifimacianer said:


> But that's not different to boiler machines up to a certain price range!
> 
> Look at the video in this thread:
> 
> ...


Most espresso machines require a flush that gets rid of too hot or too cold water from the group. It matters what comes after the flush.

Even if we eliminate the first 3 seconds from every shot from the Ascaso table, the temperature bounces up and down pretty chaotically. A normal espresso machine would maintain the same temperature for the length of the shot with a slow declining curve after.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

In the video the silvano begins to get a "stable" temperature after 6-7 seconds, and from there on it's going from 197 to 199,5 and back to 198,8 at the end.

The Ascaso is not worse here. In many of the measurements the temperature is pretty constant over several seconds, and in total it also doesn't vary more than the Silvano.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

Are you kidding me? Silvano varies within a degree celsius, after it stabilizes, while the Ascaso is bouncing between 88 and 98 degrees, in the first 5 shots, with the first 3 shots being the worst from this perspective. That means you'll never know what's the actual temperature of the water that reaches your coffee. Even if you're trolling or you're completely against boilers you have to see the difference and the ridiculousness of asking 1000 euro for such a machine.

Also if the temperature set is at 100 degrees the test must be a failure since the water almost never reaches that temperature. Or maybe because there's so much variance they aren't able to set a proper offset on the pid.

Even my lowly Gaggia is pretty stable:


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> Are you kidding me? Silvano varies within a degree celsius, after it stabilizes, while the Ascaso is bouncing between 88 and 98 degrees, in the first 5 shots, with the first 3 shots being the worst from this perspective. That means you'll never know what's the actual temperature of the water that reaches your coffee. Even if you're trolling or you're completely against boilers you have to see the difference and the ridiculousness of asking 1000 euro for such a machine.


I think YOU are kidding me?

Did you even watch the video?

From the point the shot is initiated, it takes up to 7 seconds until the silvano is at 197 F (starts @180F), and then its going up to 199,5 and back to 198,8.

The Ascaso is variying also just varying around 197-198 after the first 7 seconds! And this is the case for most of the shots pulled in this chart. BTW - do you know how the temp stability of the Silvano is after 5-10 shots in a row?



> Also if the temperature set is at 100 degrees the test must be a failure since the water almost never reaches that temperature. Or maybe because there's so much variance they aren't able to set a proper offset on the pid.


The PID of the Silvano in the video has already been calibrated!

It's easy to set the offset by yourself, so what's the problem? There are many threads about PID-machines, where people say that the PID display doesn't represent the actual brew temperature, but the actual boiler temperature.

And I am not against boiler machines. I say that thermoblocks are equally good in many use cases (taste wise), and also have some advantages like the fast heat up time, and that no water is heated several times when you don't drink not much espresso per day.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> I'm going to live it at this: if themoblocks are better why are they only employed in lower end machines?


I just discovered, that Vibiemme's high-end 'Tecnique' machines also use a thermoblock.

http://www.vbmespresso.com/en/tecnique/ts-system

The Ascaso Barista T models, that are designed for Cafes, also use thermoblocks.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

That's just marketing. VBM, like most smaller players, are trying to reinvent the wheel. I'd rather see them focusing on actual flow/pressure profiling with repeatable results in a commercial environment. I actually don't see the VBM solution as a thermoblock but more as a mini boiler since there's a big chunk of heated brass with water circulating on this brass and through the group in a thermosyphon way.

There are technologies that just work and don't need reinventing. La Marzocco, Dalla Corte, San Remo, Nuova Simonelli/Victoria Arduino, Astoria etc all use saturated groups with independent boilers in their high end commercial machines and I've seen little to no complaints about their stability.

Some folks sniff at the E61 group and call it obsolete but in reality the E61 is very predictable and, when used and implemented correctly, will offer great traditional espresso.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> I actually don't see the VBM solution as a thermoblock but more as a mini boiler since there's a big chunk of heated brass with water circulating on this brass and through the group in a thermosyphon way.


Yes, it's like a hybrid. A closed cirquit with water to bring the group on temperature, and a thermoblock to heat the water for the brews "on the fly".



> There are technologies that just work and don't need reinventing. La Marzocco, Dalla Corte, San Remo, Nuova Simonelli/Victoria Arduino, Astoria etc all use saturated groups with independent boilers in their high end commercial machines and I've seen little to no complaints about their stability.


I never said that this technology doesn't work. It works great, especially in commercial environments where the machines run all day long, 7 days a week.

But I don't see why it couldn't (or shouldn't) be improved. Everything can be improved.

Especially for the home-use, where the useage is different to the commercial useage.

Of course, for the manufacturers it's easy to scale down the tech from the pro-machines, and that's why they've done it for decades.

But I don't see that this tech is always and forever the way to go for home-use.

Thermoblocks improved over the years, and they will get even better in future. I think Vibiemmes implementation is pretty good, because it combines the positives of both worlds (heated group + thermoblock). Newer Quickmills, Ascasos and even Sage machines with thermoblock and PID show, that this tech capable to produce really good espressi.

And the quick heat-up time, always fresh water and lesser limestone in the system are a big plus for home users with low throughput per day.



> Some folks sniff at the E61 group and call it obsolete but in reality the E61 is very predictable and, when used and implemented correctly, will offer great traditional espresso.


Of course it is. And many people actually love the classic look and feel of E61 machines. I do too!


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

hifimacianer said:


> Newer Quickmills, Ascasos and even Sage machines with thermoblock and PID show, that this tech capable to produce really good espressi.


That's just a bunch of small players, with sage/breville etc being mostly chinese crap, that are trying to oversell something "better".

Small thermoblocks are not stable enough to provide constant and reliable temperature profiles. The mere fact that you set the pid at 100 degrees and the water temperature bounces randomly between 90 and 100 degrees is a no go as far as espresso is concerned.

https://www.fivesenses.com.au/blog/brew-temperature-and-its-effects-on-espresso/


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

Are you kidding (or trolling) me?

The table of the Ascano shows, that the temperature is stable after the first 6-7 seconds of the brew.

It doesn't 'jump around', it stays pretty stable for the rest of the brew!

The Silvano with Boiler, that is linked in the video, starts at 180F, and goes up to 199,5F. Is that 'jumping' too, according to you?

And the PID of the Silvano has already been calibratet (offset) by the user that made the video.

It's easy to calibrate the PID of the ascano too.

BTW: In the german Kaffee-Netz Forum is a user (espressonerd), who tested several machines, and how they perform brewing Schümli/Cafe Creme. The Ascaso Steel PID was one of the best in this regard (together with Bezzerra BZ10, VBM Domobar Junior HX), and he could easylie brew 3 Cafe Creme in a row (within 3 Minutes) without any negative effect in taste!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

hifimacianer said:


> Are you kidding (or trolling) me?
> 
> The table of the Ascano shows, that the temperature is stable after the first 6-7 seconds of the brew.
> 
> ...


Having read this thread, I'm still not convinced a ascasso PID machine with thermoblock would be the correct fit for my kitchen over a dual boiler. I'm afraid your salespitch has failed dismally.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

I'm done with this thread as you simply fail to understand basic stuff. If the water temperature goes from 95 degrees to 99 degrees and back to 96 degrees in a single shot you seriously think that will not influence taste?

I'm extracting most coffees at 92 degrees simply because higher than this bitterness comes through and I hate bitterness. Sometimes I go bellow 90 degrees. What settings would I need to use on the Ascaso to make sure the temperature doesn't shoot over 92 degrees?


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> I'm done with this thread as you simply fail to understand basic stuff. If the water temperature goes from 95 degrees to 99 degrees and back to 96 degrees in a single shot you seriously think that will not influence taste?


Where the hell jumps the temperature from 95 to 99 and back to 96?

Do you even know how to look at the table?

In the first row, it's at 97 degree after 8 seconds, and from there on, it sits there (+0,5C) until the end of the shot.

It's very similar in the other shots. the variance after it's at 97 degrees is not that big.

And you seem to ignore, that the Silvano isn't better in this regard!

Look at this Bezzera Unica with PID, that also 'jumps', and is above the 92C temperature that is set in the PID.





[/QUOTE]

What setting would you need on any other boiler machine? YOU HAVE TO TEST IT!

Once the offset is calibrated, it should be easy to set a max. temperature for different beans.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

ashcroc said:


> Having read this thread, I'm still not convinced a ascasso PID machine with thermoblock would be the correct fit for my kitchen over a dual boiler. I'm afraid your salespitch has failed dismally.


My salespitch? I even don't own one (yet).

But I know people with thermoblock machines, I read reviews, and discussions about it - and it's weird that there is such a rave against thermoblocks in this forum, while they are proven to be good in others.

Of course they are not for everyone, but thats the same for any other espresso machine out there.


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

hifimacianer said:


> Where the hell jumps the temperature from 95 to 99 and back to 96?
> 
> Do you even know how to look at the table?
> 
> ...


How can you calibrate something that doesn't give you stable results? If the pid is set at 100 degrees and in some cases you get 96 or 99 degrees water, what's the offset? The truth is you can't measure accurately the offset simply because they aren't using a fast enough sensor or a controller that can react fast enough. A simple pid can't deal with fast changes in temperature without a controller working on a feed forward feedback cycle. And the Ascaso doesn't have that.

You keep telling yourself it's good enough for espresso but in reality it's only good enough if you've never worked with a better machine.

On my machine I know, because I've measured it, the offset is always 8 degrees. The temperature will NEVER go beyond the set temperature set on the pid and it will slowly decline at the end of the shot. That's what a normal espresso machine should do.

Like any other boiler espresso machine, the Silvano needs a *flush*. In fact most boiler, HX or not, equipped machines, even without a PID, have a very predictable temperature profile after a flush.


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> How can you calibrate something that doesn't give you stable results? If the pid is set at 100 degrees and in some cases you get 96 or 99 degrees water, what's the offset? The truth is you can't measure accurately the offset simply because they aren't using a fast enough sensor or a controller that can react fast enough. A simple pid can't deal with fast changes in temperature without a controller working on a feed forward feedback cycle. And the Ascaso doesn't have that.
> 
> You keep telling yourself it's good enough for espresso but in reality it's only good enough if you've never worked with a better machine.
> 
> ...


In this case, the temperature also didn't went beyond the 100 degree that have been set. Even without calibrating the offset.

In all the measurements in the table, the Ascaso was in a really close range over most of the time of the shots, with just a few really short 'jumps', for just a second.

And these short jumps in a 25-30 second shot don't really influence the taste.

In all your rave againts the ascaso, you forget that there are a lot of boiler machines out there, that are not nearly as stable as the ascaso.

Boiler itself is no guarantee to get stable results. There are so many threads about machines that have no good temperature stability, threads about PID modding of simple boiler machines to get better results, threads about temperature surfing etc. pp. You seem to compare the Ascaso with machines in much higher price range!?

Flushing is to cool down the system, but the videos show, that there is still a variance in temperature (jump, in your terms).


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## dev (Jul 28, 2017)

hifimacianer said:


> In all the measurements in the table, the Ascaso was in a really close range over most of the time of the shots, with just a few really short 'jumps', for just a second.
> 
> And these short jumps in a 25-30 second shot don't really influence the taste.
> 
> In all your rave againts the ascaso, you forget that there are a lot of boiler machines out there, that are not nearly as stable as the ascaso.


You should really stop making generalizations and try to pass them as facts. It would be much easier if you started with "in my opinion".

I can tell the difference between a 'burnt' shot and a good one because of a too high brew temperature and I'm sure many enthusiasts also can.

I don't know of any other 1000 pound machine that is as "stable" as the Ascaso. You seem to have tested quite a few since you know for a fact there are "a lot".


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## hifimacianer (Sep 27, 2018)

dev said:


> You should really stop making generalizations and try to pass them as facts. It would be much easier if you started with "in my opinion".
> 
> I can tell the difference between a 'burnt' shot and a good one because of a too high brew temperature and I'm sure many enthusiasts also can.
> 
> I don't know of any other 1000 pound machine that is as "stable" as the Ascaso. You seem to have tested quite a few since you know for a fact there are "a lot".


Haha, that's funny! Wasn't it you, who claimed that thermoblocks are not able to make good espresso? Without ANYTHING to prove it, but your personal opinion?

The Charts clearly show, that the Ascaso/Dream is as good as the Silvano or the Bezzera Unica in the other video.

On the other hand you want to tell us, that boiler machines are better in general, without any prove. (personal opinion!?)

Even the 2 PID machines in the videos are not as stable as you want to claim all boiler machines are.

How should it be possible that boiler machines without PID are as stable, extept these that are built like a tank - but these are in a different price range.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> Having read this thread, I'm still not convinced a ascasso PID machine with thermoblock would be the correct fit for my kitchen over a dual boiler. I'm afraid your salespitch has failed dismally.


Just like dual boilers as they generally are thermoblock has it's problems. PID wont totally sort it out on either. A more complicated control loop needing more bits might help, say a flow meter to modulate the heating according to flow but even that would have it's limitations. One thing is fact on both. Some parts in use aren't directly heated and if they aren't warmed up sufficiently taste will change / wont be as it could be.

Big boilers are better - taking out say 30 or 60ml of water out of them and similar cold going in has a smaller effect on the temperature in the tank. PID reduces the heating power dramatically as the set point is approached. If it didn't the heater would be a lot hotter than the water when it was turned off and would heat it up even more. It also needs some hysteresis - a certain temperature drop before reheating. It doesn't know how much heating will be needed to maintain some flow of hot out and cold in and without more input it wont find out quickly as it might overheat.

Thermoblock does have one problem easiest mentioned on steam. Scale. It's hot enough to boil water and maintaining the heat as it's produced, When the user turns the steam off too much heat is going into the thermocoil. The same sort of thing happens on brew as well so water boils off. All this means really is more regular descaling.







Maybe an engineering type on it now and again - get it out and descale it.

The other thing is steam power when machines have 2 thermoblocks. Can only guess really what is needed and I haven't seen any demo's at all on the machine I mentioned at thread start. I know a BE with it's ?1.8kw is ok for my needs and that the DB has more steam power.. I didn't use the Piccino for milk at all. Hard to judge visually as it uses a multi hole nozzle.

I've used 3 different machines and have found things need changing to get the same taste. BE 9.xg and brewing at 15bar, DB 14.2g brewing at 10bar. The drink from the DB is a touch stronger. Piccino 12g but a more different taste, I wouldn't be inclined to say that it was bad, in fact it was rather pleasant. Mechanical thermostat on that one. There was a post some time ago - some one fitted PID to their gaggia. They sounded disappointed and posted graphs to show why. No mention of how the water temperature was measured - there are "official" ways of measuring that also the method DavecUK uses.

What do Ascao claim on the PID Steels









Really in some ways all of this sort of stuff is meaningless. A cold portafilter or even a cold shower screen arrangement will shift flow temperature more than that over a shot. A messy work flow will also produce more change in taste than a change in temperature will. And if some one does brew at say 95C and they don't like the taste they might find a change in some other area would fix that.








I'm not trying to get you to buy one. I'm sorely tempted but it's proving to be very difficult to get some rather basic information on the machine.







I even like to be able to see what's actually in them. It seems they haven't even published that yet. That can be a problem on other makes as well.

John

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