# Sage Grinder.......initial thoughts



## 4085

Well, it is here.....

  

  

  

Arrives quite well packaged so cannot see any real transport issues, and double boxed.

Read the manual which like most, gives you all the facts you need. All I did was attach the hopper which was straight forward, then decide if I wanted to grind into a pf handle or a container (for pots, pour overs etc).

There is a slide which gives you an indication of where to set the grind. It suggests for espresso to be between 17 and 25. My machine had the shims fitted prior to dispatch. The grinder has a built in timer. On espresso, it allows you to choose between 1 or 2 shots and this seems to be based on the fineness of the setting. By weighing output, you then have another simple button which lets you increase or decrease the weight. This seems to be in approximately 1 gm increases.

I played quite a bit, weighing output, chucking it, weighing again and it seems pretty accurate. The first few shots I pulled looked fine but were just too quick. I increased the fineness each time and once set to the maximum, the shot time was quite acceptable. I then started to coarsen off a notch and start to tamp harder. I was just in the process of exploring this when the machine stopped. All that hd happened was I had pulled about 15 to 20 shots back to back, and it had overheated.

That does not worry me, as long as 30 minutes in the garage sorts it out! It is unlikely to pull that many shots again back to back.

So, first impressions are that it is quite capable, easy to set up. I have no intention of going from pour over to espresso so I cannot comment there. I like the fact that it is intuitive and easy to use. A lot of electronics so the 2 year warranty is good. Price point is good as well.

So, going to have some lunch then see if it works again!


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## kikapu

I guess it really depends on how 'capable' it is for espresso because for 2 year warranty for a £199 grinder that looks good seems very good value.

Do you think this grinder is an option instead of an MC2 or is it competing at the next level with a Mignon?


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## The Systemic Kid

Be interesting to hear your thoughts, David, of the Sage compared to your Mignon.

Is it me or does the Sage look like it's escaped from the Confused.com advert??


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## garydyke1

Some pictures of grind quality would be useful.

Remember (with your Jampit) if the grinder is at its absolute finest and producing acceptable shot times then this will useless for someone using a lighter roasted coffee.

Is yours a shimmed or non-shimmed model?


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## Fevmeister

Gary, his version came preshimmed


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## garydyke1

ah yes, missed that cheers


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## jonners

This is presumably the same as the Breville Smart grinder, which has a lot of reviews on US Amazon, some of which question its reliability:Amazon.com: Breville BCG800XL Smart Grinder: Kitchen & Dining


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## Fevmeister

It is the same as the breville yes jonners but came branded as sage to set this new line apart from current breville products in this country (low line toasters, kettles and juicers etc!)

dfk, did you buy it from John Lewis?

Am i to presume that all john lewis supplied smart grinders will arrive preshimmed?


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## coffeechap

Good that you got yours, mine has not arrived!!


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## 4085

It is working again. I bought it direct from Sage. The link is on the first post in Glenns review. I will be playing more later, but, just to say I knocked the coarseness back 2 notches and tamper a lot firmer, and the shot was quite pleasant. I am using a kilo of BellaBaristas own Milano blend, but I will find some lighter colored beans to try as well


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## 4085




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## Fevmeister

Grinds look good but with some clumping?


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## garydyke1

I suspect the fairly dark roast will always be subject to some clumps. Ive seen worse from a Mignon ; )


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## 4085

Grinds are fine. It does not really clump, and not like the Mignon. I suspect this will settle down as the burrs bed in. It certainly looks value for money so far.


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## Fevmeister

I like what im hearing dfk! Only a few more positive comments from you and a positive review from cc and Ill be making a purchase!


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## 4085

Sage admit that this is aimed at the non-commercial market. By that, I mean it is a stand by, or decaf machine. That makes it ideal for home use. Even paired to the L1, the shots are really fine. Ok, I am using a bean I am not familiar with, but as time progresses, I will move back to familiar territory, but I cannot see any issues there. I have nt done wight in and volume tests, but may try that tomorrow. It always takes a little bit, just to get used to the feel of the machine. One thing I do like, is the auto power shut off after 5 mins of inactivity.


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## big dan

Glad it seems to be working well for you. What is the range of grind settings and where are you at now can i ask? And are the steps big or not? I know with my Baratza Encore one step can change a few seconds in the pour which can lead me being stuck between two steps!

Would also love to hear some comparisons against the Mignon or the MC2 as well.


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## Flibster

Looks an interesting unit. It's in a bit of a price range of it's own. £80 more than the MC2, £80 less than the Mignon.


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## Spazbarista

When I look at that grinder, I wonder how many years will it work for.

I never think that when I look at my Mazzer.


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## GS11

dfk41 said:


> I was just in the process of exploring this when the machine stopped. All that hd happened was I had pulled about 15 to 20 shots back to back, and it had overheated.


Thanks for the review dfk41:good: and look forward to further updates once you have explored further.

What watt motor is the sage? and out of interest, have you ever managed to overheat an mc2?


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## 4085

expo, a Mazzer new, is multiples of this grinder at £199.99 so not really relevant, and do not give me this second hand stuff!

I do not now how long it will last either but at the price with a 2 year warranty, do I really care! If I was paying the price for a new Vario. Then I would care but it is nearly half that.

I have never touched an MC2 so cannot compare it, sorry


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## garydyke1

Some people dont deserve a K10 fresh ; )


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## Spazbarista

Well, not wanting to piss on your parade... buuuuuut... personally (and I accept that you think differently) for something costing £200, I'd expect it to easily last two years, but the point is how many years after those initial two? This is the problem inherent with Chinese stuff. I'm scratching my head to think of anything I own which is Chinese built that looks like it might last a decade or so. Especially something with moving parts and electronics.

My Mazzer was about £350 new, two years ago. Its built like a tank. Im expecting it to outlive me. Incidentally, I wouldnt touch a Mahlkonig Vario either.

However, you've got the thing in front of you. I haven't.


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## coffeechap

i will be putting this grider through its paces when it finally arrives and expo you are welcome to give your opinion as well as i will probably take it up to rave to through copious amounts of beans through it.


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## Spazbarista

Ta. Wouldn't mind a look.


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## 4085

We have to remember, that this grinder is aimed at a specific market. It is unfair to compare it to a Mazzer or any other commercial grinder. It will have a place in a cafe environment, but for decaf or guest bean grinder with small volumes of output. To that extent, so far, it has performed very well. It is smaller than a Mazzer and therefore potentially offers someone with a space problem an alternate to the MC2, VArio, Mignon etc. I stopped it today after pulling back to back shots, between 15 and 20. I do not see that as a problem as it is unlikely with me driving it, to do that again.

I am not yet comfy enough, to compare it to the Mignon, but I will do. The only area I will really be considering is in the cup, and I am going to need help there!

To sum up, the Sage is easy to use, plenty of options, seems to produce a consistent grind quality and is aesthetically pleasing. Will it last 2 years? Who knows


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## xiuxiuejar

Expobarista said:


> Well, not wanting to piss on your parade... buuuuuut... personally (and I accept that you think differently) for something costing £200, I'd expect it to easily last two years, but the point is how many years after those initial two? This is the problem inherent with Chinese stuff. I'm scratching my head to think of anything I own which is Chinese built that looks like it might last a decade or so. Especially something with moving parts and electronics.
> 
> My Mazzer was about £350 new, two years ago. Its built like a tank. Im expecting it to outlive me. Incidentally, I wouldnt touch a Mahlkonig Vario either.
> 
> However, you've got the thing in front of you. I haven't.


I have to say I totally agree with you. A lump of plastic with a digital display from China would worry me as a waste of money and I would worry about longevity especially as I regularly pick up Mazzers for between 80 and 200 euros and as you say, they will outlive me. In the end you make your choice. I never thought I'd buy a Spanish espresso machine but I have so you never know but how the people who work in the Sage factory in China can make good espresso equipment when they probably don't even know what coffee is - it's what a lot of Americans say, lack of soul.


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## 4085

You guys are worrying far too much! All we are doing is having a look at a new entrant to the market. It is not my only grinder. I just fancied a look at one and if I had not liked it would send it back under Distance Selling rules. As it happens, so far I do quite like it. All this stuff about soul is fine as far as it goes but I tell you what, at £200, if that is your budget it has got a lot more soul than any new Mazzer or the like.....why...easy, they are not available for £200.


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## Milanski

Here's how I see it:

Sage Pros:

1. £200 new

2. Looks good with electro-visage and seemingly decent grind quality

3. Two year warranty

4. um...

Sage Cons:

1. Bit cheap and plasticy?

2. What happens after two years if it goes kaput? Landfill, that's what.

3. Rats in landfill aren't partial to Chinese electronics

4. Rats rebel and cause havoc all round the world leading to misery and mayhem on a global scale

5. No soul

Mazzer Pros:

1. £200 used or £350 new

2. Built like a brick sheite house

3. Will out live anyone with a coffee addiction

4. Tried and tested all round the world

5. Seen in every coffee bar around the world

6. Consistent grind

7. No servicing needed except for occasional burr replacement

8. A total soul brother

Mazzer Cons:

1. Sprays grinds everywhere without a schnozzer

2. er...

So there you have it, a non-biased and factual list of the good and bad qualities of these two grinders.


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## Kyle548

Milanski said:


> Here's how I see it:
> 
> So there you have it, a non-biased and factual list of the good and bad qualities of these two grinders.


a little biased.

The biggest problem I can see is the price point.

Its obviously targeted at the entry level consumer and for that crowd £200 is a lot.

When you get to the point that £200 is reasonable for a grinder, you already want a mazzer.


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## Fevmeister

Very well put Kyle. I'm finding myself in that situation myself!


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## Milanski

Kyle548 said:


> a little biased.


...ok, maybe just a little


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## glevum

Alot of grinder for the monies. See people buyng this to save on a vario or mignon. Clips ive seen on youtube seem the motor to be slow and underpowered perhaps


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## 4085

A Mazzer is not normally an entry level grinder whereas this is, especially when I suspect everyone buying the espresso machine will also buy this. They are not aimed as a package at the experienced forum type consumer but at the Amazon type person. I am unsure about the espresso machine as I have not tried one but I repeat, for what it is, the grinder seems very capable. No, you are not going to upgrade to one, but, if you are looking for a half decent grinder and would have considered a Mignon or Vario, there is now also this. If you were considering the other two, then the chances are you would not be wanting a Mazzer


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## 4085

It is quite slow. I will time some grinds tomorrow but it does not seem underpowered. I do not know what power it is but I will find out


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## xiuxiuejar

Have Mazzers really come down to just 350 new?


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## Milanski

Actually £390 is about as low as I can find new...


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## 4085

Milanski said:


> Actually £390 is about as low as I can find new...


I think he said it was 2 years ago. And don't forget the doser v non doser argument.

The motor is a mighty 165 watts! Compared to a Mazzer, tiddly, but more than capable in the home environment. On checking, a Eureka Zenith Club A is only 150 watts!


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## xiuxiuejar

That's a good price but make sure VAT is included. Some of these commercial sites don't include VAT. Bargain IMO as for the price of the traditional mazzers you won't get better. And second hand, there are some fabulous bargains to be had!


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## coffeechap

the cheapest i can find a super jolly anywhere is £420 including VAT, plus delivery on top of that, they usually sell for £450 upwards, so not sure where you are getting the prices from?


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## koahhe

coffeechap said:


> the cheapest i can find a super jolly anywhere is £420 including VAT, plus delivery on top of that, they usually sell for £450 upwards, so not sure where you are getting the prices from?


He didn't specify the grinder model so I am pretty sure he was refering to the price of Mazzer Mini


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## Spazbarista

Who me?

Mazzer mini doser. Bought two years ago new for £350, can't remember supplier. Was way cheaper than elsewhere


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## Fevmeister

mazzer mini @ 339 http://www.a1coffee.co.uk/index.php/machines-equipment/grinders.html?gclid=COvxvriV0LoCFceWtAodZEEAIw


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## glevum

Fevmeister said:


> mazzer mini @ 339 http://www.a1coffee.co.uk/index.php/machines-equipment/grinders.html?gclid=COvxvriV0LoCFceWtAodZEEAIw


Thats a good price, but you have to add Ozzer's 20% on top! free delivery thou'.


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## 4085

Fevmeister said:


> mazzer mini @ 339 http://www.a1coffee.co.uk/index.php/machines-equipment/grinders.html?gclid=COvxvriV0LoCFceWtAodZEEAIw


That is ex vat. £407.94 with vat


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## Fevmeister

glevum said:


> Thats a good price, but you have to add Ozzer's 20% on top! free delivery thou'.


ahh yes - best part of 400 delivered though?

the electric mini is attractively priced also?


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## Wando64

Expobarista said:


> When I look at that grinder, I wonder how many years will it work for.


It is a good point. This is also part of the reason I chose the Mignon over a Vario. I expect to pass the Eureka down in my inheritance, whereas once you get something with electronics you know that they will fail sooner or later. Of course electrics can also fail, but they are much more straightforward to repair.


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## 4085

Can someone remind me which country manufactures the Iphone?


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## coffeechap

Ha ha touché ...


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> Can someone remind me which country manufactures the Iphone?


Yep and they aren't designed to last past a year either , I had three , buttons stopped responding , signal died on them . Past a year you get no help other the pay for repair!


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## 4085

Boots, you do not have the touch mate. I have had iPhones since the first. I had an issue with my latest, 3 weeks out of warranty and if you say the magic words to Apple, they always fix it?

Anyway, here is a photo. Same bean, same weight in, same time for the pour. 14.5 gms in, 20 second pour. The cup on the left is the Mignon, the right the Sage. Looking at them, I would have said the shot on the left looked nicer, it smelt nicer but the Sage won comfortably on taste. That is only round one though!


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## garydyke1

What outout weight? The cup on the right looks to contain a bigger yield thus might be better dialled in


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## jeebsy

Is the colour of the crema an indication of extraction?


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## garydyke1

Yep. The one on the right will have been a faster pull, ie more liquid thru in the alloted time


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## 4085

I did not weigh output but will do. looking at them as I did, there was very little between the amount poured, despite whatever the picture might look like!


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## Spazbarista

My iPhone is fucked after 3 years.

£600 for something that only lasted 3 years.

Ridiculous.


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## Fevmeister

One could say an iphone has more potential for constant use than a domestic grinder?


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## Spazbarista

Very few moving parts. And guess which things no longer work on my iPhone?


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## Wando64

The point is the electronic components are usually proprietary and can only be replaced if the manufacturer makes them available and then at whatever price they decide to sell them at.

On the other side, electrical components such as capacitors, motors and switches (the only things that could go wrong on an Eureka) can be purchased from a number of manufacturers very cheaply and are easily exchangeable.


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## Fevmeister

has CC received his smart grinder yet?


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## garydyke1

dfk41 said:


> I did not weigh output but will do. looking at them as I did, there was very little between the amount poured, despite whatever the picture might look like!


.

30ml of watery espresso will weigh a heck of a lot less than 30ml of strong espresso, not to mention crema depth. Weighing is far more accurate. Its not a fair test grinder versus grinder without a level playing field. The grind off taught us that.

I could pull two shots using the Royal , one good and one bad, simple due to dialling it in properly.


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## 4085

I just pulled a shot with a new bean, the same bean as I have in my K10 as it happens.

14.3 gms in, 24 seconds, 27 out.

I have some new scales and have come to the conclusion to be accurate, I need another pair of hands! I will play around with this though but the londinium Honduran tasted very nice, so, will compare the two grinders later on (for fun)


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## coffeechap

Fevmeister said:


> has CC received his smart grinder yet?


Frustratingly no! Priority must be going to paying customers!


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## Xpenno

coffeechap said:


> Frustratingly no! Priority must be going to paying customers!


How very dare they!


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## Fevmeister

CC, you may need to get on the blower with heston and have a word!


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## 4085

14.2 in, 25 out in 22 seconds. tasted and looked fine. Not understanding the finer points, that would seem to be about correct? I really need a hand though as I may be a bit out trying to work scales, remove drink and watch timer at the same time!


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> 14.2 in, 25 out in 22 seconds. tasted and looked fine. Not understanding the finer points, that would seem to be about correct? I really need a hand though as I may be a bit out trying to work scales, remove drink and watch timer at the same time!


Think it's called 'multi-tasking' or something - there's a rumour women do it all the time!!


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> 14.2 in, 25 out in 22 seconds. tasted and looked fine. Not understanding the finer points, that would seem to be about correct? I really need a hand though as I may be a bit out trying to work scales, remove drink and watch timer at the same time!


Focus on the scales in favour of the timer.


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## 4085

Right, so, forget the time, but, if it us 10 gms in (for ease of maths) it should be circa 16 gms out, but if one shot takes 10 seconds and one 15, is that nit a factor?


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## MWJB

dfk41 said:


> Right, so, forget the time, but, if it us 10 gms in (for ease of maths) it should be circa 16 gms out, but if one shot takes 10 seconds and one 15, is that nit a factor?


OK count to "20 Mississipppis" then watch the scales ;-)


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## garydyke1

Unless your changing grind setting massively or have a wildly changing technique then time shouldnt change a great deal once dialled in


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## LeeR

I can't believe this thread has ended here.....

It's like Skippy has found some kids stuck in an old mineshaft and is hopping off to tell the ranger. Then you get a power cut and don't know if Skippy made it to the ranger to get the kids out of the mine in time for tea?

How is the Sage grinder doing now?

Do I need to add it to the list of possibles, taking the price into account?

Should I cut my lawn this afternoon or have a coffee instead?


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## Mrboots2u

None of the people that had the grinder for review or bought it still have it


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## Neill

Mrboots2u said:


> None of the people that had the grinder for review or bought it still have it


Says it all really.


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## garydyke1

I would take one over an MC2 any day of the week


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## Charliej

Being one of those people who had both for review, I came to the conclusion that at £200 if you are one of the people who must have everything brand new then for a starter setup, especially if bought from John Lewis an extra £28 will extend your warranty to 5 years so as part of a starter set up with say a Classic then not a bad option.

At the time I had my RR55 so saw no need to keep the Sage grinder as it wasn't great for brewed, which was the only possible use I would maybe have wanted it for, it has some nice stuff with the electronics in regard to dosing, in that respect it's far easier to use and dial in than an MC2 or any of the smaller variants of the Ascaso grinders with the same burr set and the grind quality is about the same. It's certainly nowhere as clumpy as a Mignon at finer grind levels, and is £65 less and can be bought in person fairly easily. There are a lot of the Breville brand versions in the wild in Australia that have been around a number of years with no issues, something to note is that Breville Australia are no strangers to espresso machine manufacture, we just don't see them over here.

I think that anyone who has bought the Sage DB and a Smart Grinder as a package will inevitably be disappointed as the grinder is no match for the machine being aimed originally at the starter/low end setup not as a match for an expensive machine, that said if you browse some of the Aussie forums such as Crema and Coffesnobs quite a few people have the grinder paired with quite expensive machines.

Regarding longevity of electronics, you can bet your bottom dollar that pretty much every electronic device you own has chinese made components in it. Made to appropriate ISO quality standards there is no reason the electronic part of the grinder is any more likely to fail than the electronic part of my Mythos or a K10 fresh or any Mazzer E models, nothing the Sage does is revolutionary or new in absolute terms, just new at it's price point.

For say the average John Lewis or Amazon customer it will probably be fine, it's quiet than an MC2 , but so is my burglar alarm







, it certainly looks better than most of it's competition and is easier to use. At then end of the day you pay your money and take your choice.


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## jamster

Charliej said:


> At then end of the day you pay your money and take your choice.


And then (at least in my case), change your mind, take the Sage back, and buy a Mazzer Mini instead.


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## tpadgett

xiuxiuejar said:


> I have to say I totally agree with you. A lump of plastic with a digital display from China would worry me as a waste of money and I would worry about longevity especially as I regularly pick up Mazzers for between 80 and 200 euros and as you say, they will outlive me. In the end you make your choice. I never thought I'd buy a Spanish espresso machine but I have so you never know but how the people who work in the Sage factory in China can make good espresso equipment when they probably don't even know what coffee is - it's what a lot of Americans say, lack of soul.


Where do you find a Mazzer for between 80-200 eu? can buy I two from you?


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## coffeechap

tpadgett said:


> Where do you find a Mazzer for between 80-200 eu? can buy I two from you?


you have to find them!


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## HizerKite

Just thought I'd add my tuppence worth.. I bought one of these off eBay a couple of weeks ago - Brand new 'unwanted gift' for £155 inc. postage which was very quick. Arrived in top condition and looks totally unused.

For me it's ideal, I simply place the coffee handle of my izzo espresso machine in the holder, press the on button then the grind button. The grinder will automatically grind when you insert the portafilter if required but I prefer to use the button. I don't drink espresso - only Latte, Americano etc and am no connoisseur so for me the grind is very good - I do have it set towards the finer range and I set the timer to 12 seconds which for me dispenses just the right amount. A quick tamp and then into my Izzo to produce a decent (to my taste) coffee. I do wonder about longevity but as I only have 1 - 2 cups per day, am hoping it'll last a while.

If it doesn't pack up in a few months then for me this is the perfect grinder - I wouldn't think it compares well to a high end, commercial grinder or is suited to a cafe etc but so far am very pleased with my purchase. I would prefer something heavier and metal but this is a case of convenience over build quality..


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