# Servicing the cherub



## Missy

As you all know, I'm immensely technically competent... But I've decided there are a couple of bits wanting doing to my new cherub. First it looks like the hot water tap has taken a knock at some point (it's not working, which is apparently the washer, but there's a bit of evidence of historic leaking at the joints)

I really fancy wooden knobs too.

I've been in touch with Fracino, who suggested it should be returned to them for a service. I suspect that will be expensive and be not much more than a descale and clean, which I *could* do - if I had the water tap working!

I also noted the classico has lovely wooden levers for steam and water, and wondered about, if stuff needs replacing anyway, whether I could get replaced with those instead?

Seems impossible to get a price for spares from Fracino, or details of anyone local as a recommended service agent.

I was planning on fluttering my eyelashes at Joey24dirt when it was a quick washer job... But now I want more doing... And I'm already frightened I might be named in his divorce for selling him the Oscar which is a big project itself. So anyone know anyone in the north who would service a cherub and switch some parts out. Or the cost of the parts so I can make a plan as to whether to get knobs made or pay for new levers?


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## Missy

The machine...

the hideous knob,

the lid screw hole above the hot water tap, I cannot get the screw back in even with pulling as there's been some bending of the frame I suspect.

The joint behind the hot water tap... Further down is similar at the other joints, sort of a bit white and crusty and green copper, as contrasted with behind the steam, which is pristine.


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## 4085

Missy, I can remember in order to line up the front left screw hole, I put the others in first but not tightly, then simply pulled the water tap towards me till it lined up. I have had to do this on a few machines so do not think the frame is bent, more likely the holes just not cut to alignment properly. If you click the link and scroll down a little there are some Yorkshire based engineers

https://www.liminicoffee.co.uk/espresso_machine_repair.html


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## KTD

Sue Langdon

[email protected]

Normally comes back within 24 hours with details and prices on all spares, most of which are pretty good value. A full service which includes most parts(there is a list of things doesn't include)and fixing some problems is £180 quid including vat, not cheap unless your hitting every covered problem!


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## Missy

KTD said:


> Sue Langdon
> 
> [email protected]
> 
> Normally comes back within 24 hours with details and prices on all spares, most of which are pretty good value. A full service which includes most parts(there is a list of things doesn't include)and fixing some problems is £180 quid including vat, not cheap unless your hitting every covered problem!


Yeh I emailed sue, who passed me on...


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## KTD

Missy said:


> Yeh I emailed sue, who passed me on...


Ah


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## Missy

dfk41 said:


> Missy, I can remember in order to line up the front left screw hole, I put the others in first but not tightly, then simply pulled the water tap towards me till it lined up. I have had to do this on a few machines so do not think the frame is bent, more likely the holes just not cut to alignment properly. If you click the link and scroll down a little there are some Yorkshire based engineers
> 
> https://www.liminicoffee.co.uk/espresso_machine_repair.html


Thanks. I did also suspect it may be just not quite aligned, it's a very strange machine, some parts are obviously really well engineered and thought through, then others seem to be " what we found out the back"

So the sides etc are beautiful as is the very sturdy (if oddly shallow) drip tray, then really really naff knobs, and a repurposed sweet jar for a water tank. So a slightly askew lid wouldn't surprise me.

I'm a bit too young to remember British manufacture of cars... But it's how I imagine them to be built!


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## BlackCatCoffee

I am going to the factory on Wednesday, I shall ask if there is an alternative for the knobs......


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## Missy

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I am going to the factory on Wednesday, I shall ask if there is an alternative for the knobs......


Thank you! I've made contact with a couple of local engineers, just waiting to hear back from them.


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## BlackCatCoffee

A service on them is pretty straight forward to be honest. Descale is the biggest job but that is mostly just time consuming although as you say you obviously need the water working first.......


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## Missy

BlackCatCoffee said:


> A service on them is pretty straight forward to be honest. Descale is the biggest job but that is mostly just time consuming although as you say you obviously need the water working first.......


Yeah it's really the bit that needs spanners and a new valve I need help with. I can clean and descale myself.


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## joey24dirt

I'm always willing to help if I can, it's just timescales for the turnaround. Definitely wouldn't be quick. I've got a lovely oscar I could loan in the mean time.......


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## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> I'm always willing to help if I can, it's just timescales for the turnaround. Definitely wouldn't be quick. I've got a lovely oscar I could loan in the mean time.......


I thought the oscar was in a thousand tiny pieces right now?


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## joey24dirt

Not quite. The plastic casings are off


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## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> Not quite. The plastic casings are off


Ok a few biggish pieces then!


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## joey24dirt

I'm hoping to get some more bits ripped off. Borrow the DTP and have your mind blown at its awesomeness!


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## ashcroc

joey24dirt said:


> I'm hoping to get some more bits ripped off. Borrow the DTP and have your mind blown at its awesomeness!


Or lend her the classic to give a shot of extreme nostalgia


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## joey24dirt

Another option


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## BlackCatCoffee

Well I went to the factory today and I can confirm you can indeed switch the old water/steam valves for the new 'flicky' ones from the Clasico/Heavenly. You would need the whole assembly as the way they function is different to the tap type valves.

They also have a nice Contempo sat in reception with wooden tap type handles. They look lovely too, just the same shape as your current plastic ones. Only slight problem is that the design is yet to be 100% finished. They do intend to make them available from what I can gather so a call might be in order to register interest. They would certainly transform the look of your machine.


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## Missy

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Well I went to the factory today and I can confirm you can indeed switch the old water/steam valves for the new 'flicky' ones from the Clasico/Heavenly. You would need the whole assembly as the way they function is different to the tap type valves.
> 
> They also have a nice Contempo sat in reception with wooden tap type handles. They look lovely too, just the same shape as your current plastic ones. Only slight problem is that the design is yet to be 100% finished. They do intend to make them available from what I can gather so a call might be in order to register interest. They would certainly transform the look of your machine.


Thanks!

Just need to get this water tap looked at and away we go!


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## Missy

I'm going to buy a spanner!! (If I can work out what size I need!!)


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## Missy

Current state of play.

Me and mini me went to b&q

I found the right sized spanner (22)

Brought it home and managed to remove the hot water tap assembly. (Don't look if you are sensitive about chrome!)

No obvious blockages.

So I've been brave and turned the machine on without the assembly. Still only a dribble. The opv is occasionally dumping some water into the tank in a normal sort of way.

Pushed a (sparkly) pipe cleaner in and no obvious blockages towards the boiler.

Any clever ideas?


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## jimbojohn55

So is the issue that it dribbles or wont dispense hot water?


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## Missy

jimbojohn55 said:


> So is the issue that it dribbles or wont dispense hot water?


It will only dribble... And won't dispense hot water. If it's off its off, but when it's "open" nothing, just a very small dribble.


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## jimbojohn55

so when the tap is turned does it move the valve back and forward inside the spindle?


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## jimbojohn55

Found this on the forum

"Hi guys , managed to fix it today









I disconnected the line coming from the boiler into the hot water valve. I noticed there was no movement inside the valve when turning it to open/closed where as inside the steam valve I could see the inside rotate and move down slightly . So I applied a small amount of pressure with a screwdriver (through the small hole where the pipe was connected) and it popped open really easily.

"So it turned out the mechanism inside the valve was stuck. Once I put it all together again it worked excellently "


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## Missy

jimbojohn55 said:


> Found this on the forum
> 
> "Hi guys , managed to fix it today
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I disconnected the line coming from the boiler into the hot water valve. I noticed there was no movement inside the valve when turning it to open/closed where as inside the steam valve I could see the inside rotate and move down slightly . So I applied a small amount of pressure with a screwdriver (through the small hole where the pipe was connected) and it popped open really easily.
> 
> "So it turned out the mechanism inside the valve was stuck. Once I put it all together again it worked excellently "


The spindle bit all seems fine, I've rub water through it, and watched it go in and out when the knob turns.

And I'd have thought bringing the machine up to temp with the assembly off would have made water flow if it was going to?


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## BlackCatCoffee

So with the assembly attached to the machine and knob off. If you get some pliers and actually pull the spindle do you get water out?


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## jimbojohn55

surely the machine will need to be up to pressure as that is what forces the water up and through the tap


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## Missy

BlackCatCoffee said:


> So with the assembly attached to the machine and knob off. If you get some pliers and actually pull the spindle do you get water out?


Pull on the bit the knob is on? Not tried it.


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## Missy

jimbojohn55 said:


> surely the machine will need to be up to pressure as that is what forces the water up and through the tap


But looking at the pressure gauge it *is* up to pressure. Odd eh?

In this vein the machine is cool again, so used flexible tubing to blow up the steam valve, and the little pressure thing on the boiler pops up then back down.

Attempting to blow into the water tap hole on the same principle (with assembly off) nothing. It's like blowing into a brick wall.


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## BlackCatCoffee

What exactly do you mean by the term looking at the pressure stat? As in the pressure stat is not engaged?

Just a couple of questions.

When the machine is on and finished its heating cycle where is the front pressure gauge sat?

Does the steam arm work correctly?

Do you here any hissing coming from the boiler?


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## Missy

Gauge not stat  I'll edit the above.

Yes the steam works fine. No hissing. Gauge around 1. Drops slightly on steaming, machine audibly clicks on and off to maintain that pressure. (See pic of dribbly hole pressure gauge below)


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## 4085

Crickey you are not scared of rolling your sleeves up Missy! I am sorry it is causing you this much upheaval. If I had thought it was anything other than the washer I would have said. Sounds like buying a new water tap complete will not solve it either. If there is expense in this for you, please allow me to cover that


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## Missy

dfk41 said:


> Crickey you are not scared of rolling your sleeves up Missy! I am sorry it is causing you this much upheaval. If I had thought it was anything other than the washer I would have said. Sounds like buying a new water tap complete will not solve it either. If there is expense in this for you, please allow me to cover that


I'm having fun! It's much more straightforward forward than the oscar in terms of getting inside- so I may even get the side panels off and see if I can peek in the boiler!


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## BlackCatCoffee

Ok well it is either a blockage through the pipe from the boiler to the hot water tap or the tap itself.

Other slight possibility is that there isn't enough water in the boiler. This could be down to either a faulty fill probe or it is covered in limescale. You take it out see if it is covered in scale. This is unlikely as it would have to be super low but for the sake of a few turns of a spanner probably worth a look.

It is probably most likely a blockage though.


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## joey24dirt

Go Missy! Really interested to see what the answer is. It does sound like a blocked pipe as mentioned above. If it is then hopefully an overnight soak will do the trick. Keep us posted


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## Missy

Right I need to go out now... And maybe do some parenting... Sit rep. Sides are off. I'm trying to undo the probe, but it's all a bit hot and burny, as it's fiddly to get to... So I'll finish when it's cold and I can get my fingers in.

But look! Pink pump!


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## ashcroc

Missy said:


> Right I need to go out now... And maybe do some parenting... Sit rep. Sides are off. I'm trying to undo the probe, but it's all a bit hot and burny, as it's fiddly to get to... So I'll finish when it's cold and I can get my fingers in.
> 
> But look! Pink pump!


That machine was definatwly made for you .


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## Missy

Nothing obvious on the probe so giving it a scrub and popping back in, will check the pipe next.


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## Missy

Bingo! The return to the OPV is pretty crusty too.


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## Missy

Prodding with the small end of a tin opener and...https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/5a8eeeaec54b0/VID_20180222_161919335.mp4


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## Missy

There's now water coming out of the tap... But there's going to be much descale, as I absolutely cannot cope with stripping out the boiler to soak

So favourite in tank descaling solutions? It needs to be strong... And copper boiler.


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## 4085

Well done that girl!! The soft approach is to use citric acid. Probably take a little longer that way. Perhaps others can suggest a stronger solution? I am surprised though by scale as the original owner swears he used bottled water (although I do not know what of course). My kettle never furrs up and the second owner lives but a short distance away. Still, anything for peace of mind but I am glad it is sorted!


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## espressotechno

Calcinet crystals in hot water, or phosphoric acid solution (Brand name "Phos").


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## BlackCatCoffee

Wowsers. Good descale in order. Leave it a decent amount of time. If you go to quick you can end up dislodging bits of scale that go off and block the pressure stat, gauges, solenoids etc. Seems like you have it all in hand now!


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## Missy

dfk41 said:


> Well done that girl!! The soft approach is to use citric acid. Probably take a little longer that way. Perhaps others can suggest a stronger solution? I am surprised though by scale as the original owner swears he used bottled water (although I do not know what of course). My kettle never furrs up and the second owner lives but a short distance away. Still, anything for peace of mind but I am glad it is sorted!


I guess bottled isn't necessarily soft though depending what they used. It was a literal plug of scale which when I popped it with a pointy thing released.

It's all good now though!


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## joey24dirt

Awesome work. Bah get the boiler stripped out, you're half way there anyway. Overnight in 4 sachets of puly


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## 4085

as much as you do not want to, if you take the boiler out and providing the scale all comes out, you are not using the existing pipewrok/valves to flush the debris out!


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## jimbojohn55




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## Missy

Wanna brew?


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## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Wanna brew?


Hmmm yummy


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## Jony

Might just nip to Costa instead,mmm


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## Missy

Today I will mostly be running water through a coffee machine... Andy's prehistoric adventure is baby sitting!!


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## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Today I will mostly be running water through a coffee machine... Andy's prehistoric adventure is baby sitting!!


Can't stand Andy haha.

Still have to give it to him. He's an awesome athlete....


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## Missy

All fixed for the grand cost of £8.25 (purchasing a suitable spanner) which means I've got money for either flick levers or wooden knobs. Anyone got any idea of the cost of the flick levers from Fracino?


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## BlackCatCoffee

For the entire assembly you will be looking at around £90 each off the top of my head.


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## Missy

BlackCatCoffee said:


> For the entire assembly you will be looking at around £90 each off the top of my head.


Ouch! May well just look for some knobs. Are they something that could be hand turned for those of you who do these things? (And if so feel free to PM me with a price!!)


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## destiny

Missy said:


> All fixed for the grand cost of £8.25 (purchasing a suitable spanner) which means I've got money for either flick levers or wooden knobs. Anyone got any idea of the cost of the flick levers from Fracino?


Anything direct from Fracino is about 4x the price is actually costs. I upgraded my switches at the time through thr spares reseller and when they came I found the stupid things for £3 each or something when I paid arm and a leg...


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## Missy

destiny said:


> Anything direct from Fracino is about 4x the price is actually costs. I upgraded my switches at the time through thr spares reseller and when they came I found the stupid things for £3 each or something when I paid arm and a leg...


Yeah but I'm not sure where else j would get the right thing from!


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## destiny

What are you after at the moment?


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## Missy

destiny said:


> What are you after at the moment?


Either new not plastic knobs, or the lever taps for hot water and steam from the classico but obviously I would need the whole thing to fit them.


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## destiny

Did you try Peter at espressounderground.co.uk?

Search for FR15020, not sure if this the right thing?


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## Jony

Just a thought do you really need a lever for water tap, the steam yes would be great. I'm surprised no one on here can turn you a few off.


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## Missy

Jony said:


> Just a thought do you really need a lever for water tap, the steam yes would be great. I'm surprised no one on here can turn you a few off.


No need at all really... But... Shiny.

The problem apparently is the odd fitting into the spindle. It's circular with a small flat edge


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## Missy

destiny said:


> Did you try Peter at espressounderground.co.uk?
> 
> Search for FR15020, not sure if this the right thing?


That's the delightful plastic knob of horror.


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## 4085

I used to have an expobar leva which had knobs. BB used to sell wooden kits that replicated the plastic exactly. I would have thought, that one of the wood turning experts on here would be able to take your spare knob, work out how it attaches then make something wooden.....or is that a bit Blue Peterish!


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## Missy

dfk41 said:


> I used to have an expobar leva which had knobs. BB used to sell wooden kits that replicated the plastic exactly. I would have thought, that one of the wood turning experts on here would be able to take your spare knob, work out how it attaches then make something wooden.....or is that a bit Blue Peterish!


Sounds good in theory, Joey24dirt felt it was probably a bit beyond his kit.


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## coffeechap

Can you take a photo of the assembly


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## 4085

The only part of the knob that has to be the same is the bit that attaches. Crack that and the world is whatever shape you wish


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## Missy

coffeechap said:


> Can you take a photo of the assembly


The photo of the knob innards is above, and is all moulded, I can hopefully get one of the spindle it attaches to now it's dark, there's a poorly placed window in daylight.


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## ashcroc

Missy said:


> Sounds good in theory, Joey24dirt felt it was probably a bit beyond his kit.


That's surprising. I'd have thought all it needed was a hole drilling then a small metal sheet hammered in to make the flat. That or copy the size of the original & reuse the metal clip.


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## Missy

@ashcroc yes but some chump sold him an Oscar that needs all his time and attention so he's a bit flat out for working things out!


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## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Sounds good in theory, Joey24dirt felt it was probably a bit beyond his kit.


I'd definite tackle it but would need one in hand


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## 4085

there will be a spare as the water knob aint needed! The plastic one is hollow therefore needs the clips etc. Should be easy enough to make a solid one, drill it to fit the spindle then secure with a grub screw or something (you can see I am not at all handy!)


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## ashcroc

joey24dirt said:


> I'd definite tackle it but would need one in hand


Purple heart would go well with the case


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## Missy

dfk41 said:


> there will be a spare as the water knob aint needed! The plastic one is hollow therefore needs the clips etc. Should be easy enough to make a solid one, drill it to fit the spindle then secure with a grub screw or something (you can see I am not at all handy!)


Yeah there's definitely a spare... Despite the beautiful shower effect now emerging from the tap... Pretty but pointless!


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## destiny

I havr some wooden handles made, but still with the friend who did them for me (carpenter by trade) and he said an interference fit will be enough as the spindle on both water and steam taps runs smooth and with little force.

Worst case, oversize the hole a bit and wrap spindle in double sided carpet tape to get this to interlock better.


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## Missy

Ah pants. Looks like I should have taken the boiler off. The portafilter popped off this morning, so I'm guessing the solenoid has got gunked up? Didn't happen on backflushing only on making a shot.


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## joey24dirt

Oh no. Full strip down then maybe?


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## Missy

Vaguely hoping a second descale might do it once I have the calcinet rather than citric acid.


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## joey24dirt

Fingers crossed. I'm sure if it does need stripping you'll be fine  it's just the thought of the downtime. I'm desperate to get the Oscar fired up haha


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## El carajillo

I know it is a PIA but I think you would be better off "biting the bullet" and doing a strip down now. If you just d/scale now the chances are another piece / particle will move and block something else = another D/scale.

There is enough support on the forum to see you through the trauma and help if necassary.


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## Missy

El carajillo said:


> I know it is a PIA but I think you would be better off "biting the bullet" and doing a strip down now. If you just d/scale now the chances are another piece / particle will move and block something else = another D/scale.
> 
> There is enough support on the forum to see you through the trauma and help if necassary.


I know. I'm just not sure I have time/space/goodwill at home right now to do it! Though it looks like the boiler just unscrews with spanners... It's the pipework that worries me. I may see next Thursday if I can get as much as is practical off and soaking.


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## 4515

Lots of photographs or where stuff fits, photos as youre stripping it down and then rebuilding is the reverse of the strip down.

I agree with El carajillo. without a full descale you could be chasing lumps of limescale around the machine for months.


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## Missy

working dog said:


> Lots of photographs or where stuff fits, photos as youre stripping it down and then rebuilding is the reverse of the strip down.
> 
> I agree with El carajillo. without a full descale you could be chasing lumps of limescale around the machine for months.


Ah it's all good in theory... In practice I'm not terribly spatially aware... And my memory is like a sieve. I'll end up with a very random box of bits in my boot seeking rescue...

But I'll give it a go 

I'm not messing with electric bits!


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## 4515

It did sound dead easy from those few words

Good luck with the strip down


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## joey24dirt

If you get stuck you know where I am


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## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> If you get stuck you know where I am


Yep... I'll be bringing you the box of bits and a parts diagram


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## destiny

I had mine fully stripped and dissasembled and if you do end up taking the heating element off it needs quite something to undo.. I had to take it to my local garage to use pneumatic wheel gun as it seized up so badly. But well worth full strip down, mine was badly scaled so I turned it into like new









I think I have a lot of pics and will help out if you get stuck.


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## Missy

destiny said:


> I had mine fully stripped and dissasembled and if you do end up taking the heating element off it needs quite something to undo.. I had to take it to my local garage to use pneumatic wheel gun as it seized up so badly. But well worth full strip down, mine was badly scaled so I turned it into like new
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I think I have a lot of pics and will help out if you get stuck.


I'm wondering if I can leave the element in situ as there are other holes...


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## destiny

You can, all depends on how bad the scale is, plus element is for steam so this is relatively worry free area. My heat exchanger pipe took a lot of cleaning..

Btw. If you do the heating element than make sure to replace the gasket.

You can try to clean heat exchanger in situ, by isolating the in and out pipes and leaving descale solution there long enough.

My experience was thought that with actual massive scale flakes they will break away from copper but wont dissolve to come through..

Maybe I wasnt harsh enough with the solution to achieve that.


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## Missy

Well... I've now got a list of "parts I've wrecked" and am plodding on with trying to get the boiler out.


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## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Well... I've now got a list of "parts I've wrecked" and am plodding on with trying to get the boiler out.


Oh no. Are you able to order up a replacement ?


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## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> Oh no. Are you able to order up a replacement ?


I hope so. I've got a parts list and diagram.


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## joey24dirt

Yeah I'm sure things will be available. Hopefully the list stays short.


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## 4515

That's one less item to descale


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## Missy

Success! I've got a boiler in my hands. It's a bit of a mess inside the group head too.

Next set of questions

1) I can't seem to get the HX pipes off.

2) how do I descale inside the grouphead.

3) I'm going to get the element out and give the whole thing an acid bath... Any top tips?


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## ashcroc

When you said the water tank looked like a sweet jar I thought you were joking.


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## Missy

ashcroc said:


> When you said the water tank looked like a sweet jar I thought you were joking.


I actually think it *is* a sweet jar.


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## 4515

ashcroc said:


> When you said the water tank looked like a sweet jar I thought you were joking.


I thought the same as soon as I saw the image. Serious Brummie ingenuity


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## destiny

Wow, your group really looks bad. Give the boiler a shake and see if you can hear any scale flakes slosshing about.

Undoing heat exchanger takes a lot of torque. I had to take it to a garage and used an air tyre gun on it!

Fracino will have a jig to hold the thing to do it up so make sure you are able to undo it and do it back up too..


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## Missy

Spoken to Peter at espresso underground, and he thinks i should be replacing the element too after the scaling, what's general consensus here on that?


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## Missy

destiny said:


> Wow, your group really looks bad. Give the boiler a shake and see if you can hear any scale flakes slosshing about.
> 
> Undoing heat exchanger takes a lot of torque. I had to take it to a garage and used an air tyre gun on it!
> 
> Fracino will have a jig to hold the thing to do it up so make sure you are able to undo it and do it back up too..


I think I'm just going to get a big tub, submerge the lot, do some turning round and round, and then push water through it after to clear.


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## El carajillo

Congratulations on your perseverance and 10/10 for effort,there are many on the forum who would never attempt what you have.

To remove the element and the HX pipes I think your best bet is to take it to a local garage. The element needs a large socket and probably an air gun.

The HX pipes may need a little heat applied and the garage will have oxy/acet torch.

To D/S the group head you could initially lay the M/ch face down and fill the orifice's with a strong D/S solution. I would then remove the mushroom and strip the rest of the head clean and check the seals, etc.


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## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Congratulations on your perseverance and 10/10 for effort,there are many on the forum who would never attempt what you have.
> 
> To remove the element and the HX pipes I think your best bet is to take it to a local garage. The element needs a large socket and probably an air gun.
> 
> The HX pipes may need a little heat applied and the garage will have oxy/acet torch.
> 
> To D/S the group head you could initially lay the M/ch face down and fill the orifice's with a strong D/S solution. I would then remove the mushroom and strip the rest of the head clean and check the seals, etc.


Would they not think I'm a bit odd? We've not found a new garage since moving house, but there's one next to where I work... I can just imagine their bemusement if I turn up and ask them to start pulling bits off the machine.

An aside... Peter at EU says that "yes it's an e61 head and it's correct"


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## joey24dirt

I'd be tempted to give it a puly bath first to see how it turns out. Just my opinion. It worked for me


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## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> I'd be tempted to give it a puly bath first to see how it turns out. Just my opinion. It worked for me


And hope it will loosen the threads?

Assuming you mean descaler not cleaner?


----------



## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> And hope it will loosen the threads?
> 
> Assuming you mean descaler not cleaner?


Yeah I used the descaler sachets, 4 of them in 8 litres of water. It's a shame you don't live closer, my van is packed full of tools  (hopefully no local thieves reading this)


----------



## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> Yeah I used the descaler sachets, 4 of them in 8 litres of water. It's a shame you don't live closer, my van is packed full of tools  (hopefully no local thieves reading this)


I've bought TWO new spanners for this job. What more tools could anyone need??

Think I'm going to brave the garage. In my work uniform. Really bemuse them.

After I've soaked it. If I'm replacing the element anyway it doesn't matter if it gets wet.


----------



## El carajillo

Why are you replacing the element ? Has it blown ?.. If the element is OK do not get the terminals wet, the insulation in the element is like chalk, if it absorbs moisture you will have to "cook it dry" or it will blow.

I am sure you can sweet talk someone at the garage to free those nut's and bolts for you.


----------



## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Why are you replacing the element ? Has it blown ?.. If the element is OK do not get the terminals wet, the insulation in the element is like chalk, if it absorbs moisture you will have to "cook it dry" or it will blow.
> 
> I am sure you can sweet talk someone at the garage to free those nut's and bolts for you.


Apparently I should replace the element after it's been so scaled as it will cause hotspots?

"I would recommend replacing the boiler element, only experience has shown that where scale builds up on the element it cause hot spots which are a weakness, and will cause problems quickly, from an engineer's point of view *a disaster if it needs replacing quickly after a de-scale."

Clearly also would like to sell me a new element... It's not wet yet. I'll go to the garage tomorrow. Or Thursday. Hopefully.


----------



## ashcroc

Missy said:


> Apparently I should replace the element after it's been so scaled as it will cause hotspots?
> 
> "I would recommend replacing the boiler element, only experience has shown that where scale builds up on the element it cause hot spots which are a weakness, and will cause problems quickly, from an engineer's point of view *a disaster if it needs replacing quickly after a de-scale."
> 
> Clearly also would like to sell me a new element... It's not wet yet. I'll go to the garage tomorrow. Or Thursday. Hopefully.


When I was repairing washing machines, it wasn't uncommon to replace the element even if it wasn't connected to the fault I'd been called out for. If you've got a decent multimeter you can check the MΩ resistance to earth but without one it's easier just to replace while you have the machine in bits.


----------



## Missy

ashcroc said:


> When I was repairing washing machines, it wasn't uncommon to replace the element even if it wasn't connected to the fault I'd been called out for. If you've got a decent multimeter you can check the MΩ resistance to earth but without one it's easier just to replace while you have the machine in bits.


I think that was the jist of his argument, at 6 years old, and being sat in scale it's probably better changed now rather than waiting for it to go and having to fully strip it down again.

Hubby "didn't you get rid of the last machine because the pump needed replacing"

Me "ummmm.... Well this one is easier to get into... And ummmm... Shiny" I've been wanting this machine since forever. Though it's starting to cost money


----------



## destiny

I didnt change my heating element even though it was covered in scale and touch wood, one year on its all going strong.

Most of connections had some thread sealant/locker on, which on mine looked pinkish so this will be baked hard. Thats why its so difficult to undo some connections.

Did you get a service pack for all the other seals etc?

Btw. One of heat exchanger pipes has a teflon insert on the joint, so Id be careful with excessive heat with a torch.


----------



## Missy

destiny said:


> I didnt change my heating element even though it was covered in scale and touch wood, one year on its all going strong.
> 
> Most of connections had some thread sealant/locker on, which on mine looked pinkish so this will be baked hard. Thats why its so difficult to undo some connections.
> 
> Did you get a service pack for all the other seals etc?
> 
> Btw. One of heat exchanger pipes has a teflon insert on the joint, so Id be careful with excessive heat with a torch.


Did you replace the sealant?


----------



## destiny

Missy said:


> Did you replace the sealant?


Yes, this was necessary as otherwise it would be leaking. My gasket was almost gone and there was signs of leaks in the past.

Where Fracino used sealant on joints I just added ptfe tape, but even this is not necessary. All of them a compression joints so they seal well providing the alignment is good and nothing gets pushed out of place.


----------



## Missy

destiny said:


> Yes, this was necessary as otherwise it would be leaking. My gasket was almost gone and there was signs of leaks in the past.
> 
> Where Fracino used sealant on joints I just added ptfe tape, but even this is not necessary. All of them a compression joints so they seal well providing the alignment is good and nothing gets pushed out of place.


Oh obviously I'm replacing seals... It was the liquid sealant I wasn't sure about.


----------



## ashcroc

Missy said:


> Oh obviously I'm replacing seals... It was the liquid sealant I wasn't sure about.


Think the liquid ptfe sealant that was used on a couple '73 la pav's recently would work.


----------



## Missy

This is the definition of bravery.


----------



## destiny

Good call! Putting it together is a different story as there is alignment to consider so have this in mind for later!


----------



## joey24dirt

Awesome. Have they managed to get you sorted?


----------



## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> Awesome. Have they managed to get you sorted?


Yup! Amidst much hilarity.


----------



## ashcroc

Missy said:


> Yup! Amidst much hilarity.


You probably made their day. I bet it made a nice change from working on cars day in day out.


----------



## destiny

Show us the insides! Bet there were some 'bomb' jokes about this


----------



## Missy

destiny said:


> Show us the insides! Bet there were some 'bomb' jokes about this


No they thought I was distilling, then asked if it was vintage. Home for an hour or so now so will snap some shots.


----------



## Missy

Not too bad... Lots of flakes... And bearing in mind it's already had a good overnight soak in citric acid...


----------



## destiny

Main boiler doesnt look too bad than, but would expect the HE main pipe to be worse. Give it a good soak


----------



## Missy

destiny said:


> Main boiler doesnt look too bad than, but would expect the HE main pipe to be worse. Give it a good soak


It's like a natural cave system... But I can't get a photo in there with my phone!


----------



## destiny

Missy said:


> It's like a natural cave system... But I can't get a photo in there with my phone!


Mine looked a bit like a sand rose formation!


----------



## Missy

Bad news. It's all in a bucket... But my descaler isn't... honestly it's a couple of inches of snow...


----------



## Missy

Again I think it could have been worse.

Can I chuck the e61 bits in the bucket with the boiler or should I do them separately?


----------



## El carajillo

Put some in a jar / cup and stand components in it better kept off shiny bits if possible.

Are you glad you went into the lions den to have it taken appart having seen the inside ???


----------



## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Put some in a jar / cup and stand components in it better kept off shiny bits if possible.
> 
> Are you glad you went into the lions den to have it taken appart having seen the inside ???


Yep, though I'm sad I'm so rubbish at brewed!

It's good fun, but I'm worried about the rebuild.


----------



## El carajillo

Plenty of help and guidance on the forum.

I think you should be very proud of yourself and your achievements . I am sure there are quite a few forum members envious of your persistence and tenacity.


----------



## Planter

This has been a great read - despite the issues you're having with the Fracino.

Good luck with the rebuild, I'm sure it'll be spot on. @Missy


----------



## Missy

Planter said:


> This has been a great read - despite the issues you're having with the Fracino.
> 
> Good luck with the rebuild, I'm sure it'll be spot on. @Missy


I aim to please... Or at least mildly amuse!


----------



## Missy

Peter at espresso underground has emailed me a list of bits and bobs to replace which is as long as a phone book. He assures me it's all little bits and pieces worth replacing when the machine is stripped. Which is fine... And the parts list and diagrams look easy enough but how will I know if it's spring number ch2274 or cb3325 ?!?! Expect many lots photographs and requests for help over the next couple of weeks!!

And out of interest will the bits the garage took off need to go back to be put back on?


----------



## Greydad

Awesome! I understand the spanners reference now

Sorry I can't offer any useful help but it's fascinating to watch


----------



## destiny

Parts should come all labelled up in separate bags so you should be ok.

Not sure if I understand your question about the parts that garage took off..

Pm me the list od what he suggested if you want, Ill see if all is worth doing.

Was the machine looked after/ serviced before?


----------



## Missy

Greydad said:


> Awesome! I understand the spanner's reference now
> 
> Sorry I can't offer any useful help but it's fascinating to watch


Moral support is vital to my sanity. If you want to compose amusing limericks to keep my spirits up that would be useful


----------



## Greydad

A lady barista named Missy's...

...espresso machine went all hissy

In true Yorkshire manner

She took out her spanner

Stripped it down but now the bits don't all fit-ty


----------



## Missy

Wonderful @Greydad ! See that's wonderful moral support. Now could you nip to the Cleveland parcelforce depot and collect my descaler? They seem a bit wimpish about driving in the snow... You'll want skis.


----------



## joey24dirt

It's looking pretty grim here, and more snow expected so they had better get the hell out of the area. Feels like -8 apparently. Can't wait to go outside.


----------



## Greydad

Missy said:


> Wonderful @Greydad ! See that's wonderful moral support. Now could you nip to the Cleveland parcelforce depot and collect my descaler? They seem a bit wimpish about driving in the snow... You'll want skis.


That's it I'm afraid my creativity is now completely exhausted

miserable down here in Zummerzet the snow has turned to sleet/frozen rain very disappointing so much as I'd like to drive to Cleveland today I shall mostly be curled up next to a log fire drinking my latest coffee experiments

Good luck with the Cherub do keep us updated


----------



## Missy

The calcinet is here, and immediately brightened the boiler and pipes...

I've also soaked cotton wool in the solution to put in bits that are hard to dip.

It's satisfying watching the scale float out of the holes!


----------



## Missy

Sitrep. I've now got a brass mushroom, the chrome was all pitted and dropped off. I'm assuming it's no big deal?

Everything now very shiny. Just wondering if the boiler would appreciate another hour, the calcinet was very clear to only soak for an hour... But when I tipped the water out it wasn't all dissolved.

The use of cotton wool appears to have been a success.


----------



## Missy

@espressotechno I've reimmersed the boiler (not the pipes) in a fresh solution as it's still pretty scaly round the outlets. The packaging says 1 hour. Any reason I shouldn't leave it longer??


----------



## destiny

What end/pipe is the one with the white ptfe flow reducer? Is that out of the heat exchanger to group?

Amazing this stuff, let us know some details please as I took ages with citric and alternative for mine.

Good job! You are making swift progress so far


----------



## Missy

destiny said:


> What end/pipe is the one with the white ptfe flow reducer? Is that out of the heat exchanger to group?
> 
> Amazing this stuff, let us know some details please as I took ages with citric and alternative for mine.
> 
> Good job! You are making swift progress so far


It's the long brass thing that pipes fit on... The manifold maybe?


----------



## El carajillo

destiny said:


> What end/pipe is the one with the white ptfe flow reducer? Is that out of the heat exchanger to group?
> 
> Amazing this stuff, let us know some details please as I took ages with citric and alternative for mine.
> 
> Good job! You are making swift progress so far


Heat exchanger elbow


----------



## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Heat exchanger elbow


Yes I realised this after I looked properly! Let's hope I can stay focussed during the rebuild.

the grouphead is causing a little bemusement, but hopefully will be resolved by the end of today and the spares can make their way here for me to stare at for weeks! It's very definitely not the grouphead it's supposed to be, but hopefully espresso underground who originally sold it in 2012 and are putting the spares kit together can get an answer from fracino.


----------



## Missy

We know what it is, group head from the classic, likely due to stock shortage. Peter at Espresso Underground wondered if it used to be @fatboyslim 's as it was bought at a similar time.

My mushroom has balded...

It used to be chrome...

And Tapatalk obviously has decency filters, tried to take the photo in the palm of my hand and Tapatalk rejected it three times


----------



## MildredM

^^^ LOLOL I am not saying a word . . . .


----------



## joey24dirt

Oh my


----------



## Missy

Dunno what you are all sniggering about. You can see the coppery brassy discoloration much better against a lighter background. And my hand was... To hand.


----------



## El carajillo

A ditty for Missy










A lass from up yonder

Was starting to ponder

Just how she could solve her conundrum

She appealed to the nation

To find the causation

Before she collapsed in a tantrum

To the rescue rode man

With a devilish plan

That was solved by a local mechanic

With a helpful, kind manner

And the right size of spanner

He worked at his life saving magic

The machine that was beat

Is now working a treat

Amidst many a tear and loud laughter

The coffee is flowing

The barista is glowing

And happiness reigns ever after. (Until the next time)























I cannot take credit / blame for this, it was Mrs El. c


----------



## fatboyslim

Missy said:


> We know what it is, group head from the classic, likely due to stock shortage. Peter at Espresso Underground wondered if it used to be @fatboyslim 's as it was bought at a similar time.
> 
> My mushroom has balded...
> 
> It used to be chrome...
> 
> And Tapatalk obviously has decency filters, tried to take the photo in the palm of my hand and Tapatalk rejected it three times


 @johnbudding still has mine


----------



## johnbudding

fatboyslim said:


> @johnbudding still has mine


Indeed I do! I was just using it about ten minutes ago. However, I'm moving over to brewed a bit more at the moment, so maybe watch this space...!


----------



## fatboyslim

johnbudding said:


> Indeed I do! I was just using it about ten minutes ago. However, I'm moving over to brewed a bit more at the moment, so maybe watch this space...!


Ah he sees the light at last ?


----------



## Missy

@johnbudding does your group head have two nuts piled on each other, or a single one? (See pics of mine) just curious as mine appears to be an anomaly, and they were bought around the same time.


----------



## johnbudding

@Missy - mine looks different to yours! It has the single large nut on top, and nothing halfway down the front of the group head either.


----------



## Missy

Fascinating.

Wonder why I've ended up with this one!

Very strange.

British manufacturing at its best.


----------



## ashcroc

Missy said:


> Fascinating.
> 
> Wonder why I've ended up with this one!
> 
> Very strange.
> 
> British manufacturing at its best.


They most likely ran out of the correct one or just went to the wrong parts bin.

Either way you've ended up with a group from a more expensive machine so I'd call it a win.


----------



## Missy

ashcroc said:


> They most likely ran out of the correct one or just went to the wrong parts bin.
> 
> Either way you've ended up with a group from a more expensive machine so I'd call it a win.


Oh it's definitely a win. It's a more "proper" e61 makes it worth doing the fix up. Even if it is a bit slow going.


----------



## Greydad

Wassappening? Wassappening?

a whole day has gone by WITH NO UPDATES!!


----------



## Missy

Greydad said:


> Wassappening? Wassappening?
> 
> a whole day has gone by WITH NO UPDATES!!


Good question!

Nowt.

Absolutely zilch.

Waiting on an invoice from Peter for the stuff I need. Been up to visit the in-laws today, so failed to chase it.

Nothing much can happen until I have his magic bits, though I keep meaning to post a knob over to @joey24dirt for him to play with!


----------



## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Good question!
> 
> Nowt.
> 
> Absolutely zilch.
> 
> Waiting on an invoice from Peter for the stuff I need. Been up to visit the in-laws today, so failed to chase it.
> 
> Nothing much can happen until I have his magic bits, though I keep meaning to post a knob over to @joey24dirt for him to play with!


Haha oo'er now there's an offer  yeah get it sent over I'll see what we can come up with


----------



## ashcroc

joey24dirt said:


> Haha oo'er now there's an offer  yeah get it sent over I'll see what we can come up with


Purple heart wood would be perfect considering the colour of the cherub.


----------



## joey24dirt

ashcroc said:


> Purple heart wood would be perfect considering the colour of the cherub.


I'll get in touch with my mate and see what he can get hold of..... failing that I've got some purple outdoor wood paint if that'll do?! Dead professional me ?


----------



## Missy

Morning update...

I did have an email last night from EU, who are being absolutely amazing, Fracino on the other hand are being generally confused and struggling, so getting the parts together is apparently "interesting"

It is the original group head, but they don't have the parts anymore, as they were older ones which they slapped on when they had run out.

However we have decided it's best to keep this group head (much better quality) and try and source bits to fit.

By the end of the week hopefully my bank balance will be lighter and (work permitting) I may have the machine back up and running soon.


----------



## Missy

The "lack of espresso" madness is setting in.

Yes it is green.

It's like a hot milkshake... And not really in a good way.

Pray that Peter gets Fracino over a spares barrel soon or I may not survive...


----------



## Missy

Good news! I've paid for the "coffee machine service package" poor Peter had sent me a long list of every part required, and begged not to have to list each item individually on the invoice. But there's a new element, a squillion seals, springs and jiggly bits, and the weird little thing I struggled to photograph from inside the group head. And a liquid pipe sealant...

Watch this space. It's my birthday today so I'm rather pleased to have positive news on the caffeine front!

If anyone is looking to source spares I can highly recommend espresso underground. He's gone well beyond what was required, and handled all my blithering and confusion wonderfully.


----------



## MildredM

Whoooooo! Happy Birthday to YOU


----------



## joey24dirt

Happy birthday !!!!


----------



## Greydad

Happy birfdaze 2 yooz

Happy birfdaze 2 yooz

Happy birfdaze dear Missy-with-the-hissy-fitty-fracino-thingie

Happy birfdaze 2 yooz


----------



## Missy

Greydad said:


> Happy birfdaze 2 yooz
> 
> Happy birfdaze 2 yooz
> 
> Happy birfdaze dear Missy-with-the-hissy-fitty-fracino-thingie
> 
> Happy birfdaze 2 yooz


It's not hissy fitty. It had a non working hot water tap...

And the rest is history


----------



## Kitkat

Happy Birthday!

I hope you've been able to celebreate with a good coffee.


----------



## MildredM




----------



## Missy

MildredM said:


>


Awwww I'm honoured! Thank you!

Could you send them round to rebuild my machine?


----------



## Greydad

Missy said:


> It's not hissy fitty. It had a non working hot water tap...
> 
> And the rest is history


An 18 page thread to fix a tap???!!!


----------



## Missy

Greydad said:


> An 18 page thread to fix a tap???!!!


If you'd bothered to read the full text of the epic adventure you'd know this. It's like the ancient mariner... Man drives boat near albatross. But it takes 6 million stanzas to resolve.


----------



## MildredM

Greydad said:


> An 18 page thread to fix a tap???!!!


You honestly don't come across as being this brave


----------



## Greydad

Missy said:


> If you'd bothered to read the full text of the epic adventure you'd know this. It's like the ancient mariner... Man drives boat near albatross. But it takes 6 million stanzas to resolve.


I tried, honestly I did, but lost the will to live somewhere near the 3 or 4 millionth stanza


----------



## MildredM

Greydad said:


> I tried, honestly I did, but lost the will to live somewhere near the 3 or 4 millionth stanza


I suspect you have overdosed on coffee and it has given you a braveness beyond words . . .


----------



## Greydad

MildredM said:


> You honestly don't come across as being this brave


I feel safe in the knowledge of the geographical gulf between Somerset and Yorkshire and the impenetrable barrier of the Pennines keeping me secure


----------



## Greydad

MildredM said:


> I suspect you have overdosed on coffee and it has given you a braveness beyond words . . .


Several people accused me of that on another forum I inhabit, I was accused of being arsey and it was only after the second double latte of the day too


----------



## Greydad

Gone awfly kwiet...


----------



## Missy

Greydad said:


> Gone awfly kwiet...


Just plotting. You'd best hope it's about the machine not about you.

Or I've been working hard today, and not quite had time to think. Don't expect much over the weekend either.


----------



## Greydad

Missy said:


> Just plotting. You'd best hope it's about the machine not about you.


lolz



> Or I've been working hard today, and not quite had time to think. Don't expect much over the weekend either.


harrumph #disappointing


----------



## Missy

News!

The final pipe arrived with EU today, and they assure me that the parcel should be with me by Tuesday.


----------



## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> News!
> 
> The final pipe arrived with EU today, and they assure me that the parcel should be with me by Tuesday.


I wish my stuff would hurry the f up from ES. New pump arrived though


----------



## Missy

Managed to miss the delivery today. Gutted as hubby is out this evening!


----------



## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Managed to miss the delivery today. Gutted as hubby is out this evening!


Oh no! My delivery is due tomorrow. I emailed them today to find out what was going on and got a reply of "your parts have literally just come in" hmmm ok.

What did you decide with the steam knobs? I'm wondering if the fitting is the same as what's on the Oscar. Could do a mock up and send it over for a test.


----------



## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> Oh no! My delivery is due tomorrow. I emailed them today to find out what was going on and got a reply of "your parts have literally just come in" hmmm ok.
> 
> What did you decide with the steam knobs? I'm wondering if the fitting is the same as what's on the Oscar. Could do a mock up and send it over for a test.


I've decided to leave it for now, get it up and running and some more pennies put aside before I splash on knobs.


----------



## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> I've decided to leave it for now, get it up and running and some more pennies put aside before I splash on knobs.


Good plan. I need to stop spending too. Just had to buy another axkid minikid for monster #2 and they aren't flipping cheap!

Obviously these children don't realise the expense involved in coffee making


----------



## Missy

Yeah, we spent £200 on a new carseat and it's making the shechild travelsick (as you know!)


----------



## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Yeah, we spent £200 on a new carseat and it's making the shechild travelsick (as you know!)


Bless her


----------



## Missy

I'm panicking.

The sack of terror has arrived. Everything neatly labelled so I can put it all back together...

Except...

The new element is longer, and only has two bits poking out... Help?!?

There's a new big black sirai box... (Pressure stat) which I wasn't expecting.

The old one has wires coming out of it... The new one is just blank at the back.

Then there are 10000 little bits and pieces all in little bags and neatly labelled (parts diagram to hand so should be easy enough... There's just so much!)


----------



## joey24dirt

This would be like Christmas for me lol 

Is it like an upgrade kit from the previous arrangement?


----------



## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> This would be like Christmas for me lol
> 
> Is it like an upgrade kit from the previous arrangement?


I don't know...

Tbh I'm starting to think I need to chuck it all in a box and bring it over to you - especially the electric bits panic me.


----------



## Missy

Current progress report...

That's chocolate mousse thank fully.


----------



## Missy

I give up.

Just spent ages carefully reattaching and tightening all the pipes etc. I've not faffed with any of the little bits, or the pressure stat as they can be done later.

I've switched it on and every single flipping joint is leaking.

I don't think I have the energy to take everything apart again. 

Clearly I'm capable of undoing with a spanner, but not tightening again.


----------



## El carajillo

Take heart even plumbers have leaks, there was one plumber we called the rain maker. When he started work in a building you moved all your tools out because you new it would be only a matter of time before there was an internal down pour.







.

Inspect the ends of the pips for any burrs or rough spots. When you start the thread on one end of the pipe just finger tight, then attach he other end finger tight. Then take up any slack evenly before tightening. Even this can sometimes allow weeps, in this case use a smear of W/ Board approved jointing paste on the cone or on the stub of pipe and the cone which goes into the fitting (only on male parts).

Alternatively you can use a couple of turns of P.T.F.E. tape.

I think all the members are supporting you and feeling your disappointment. Stick with it you have come a long way and learnt an awful lot and achieved a lot .







:good:


----------



## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Take heart even plumbers have leaks, there was one plumber we called the rain maker. When he started work in a building you moved all your tools out because you new it would be only a matter of time before there was an internal down pour.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Inspect the ends of the pips for any burrs or rough spots. When you start the thread on one end of the pipe just finger tight, then attach he other end finger tight. Then take up any slack evenly before tightening. Even this can sometimes allow weeps, in this case use a smear of W/ Board approved jointing paste on the cone or on the stub of pipe and the cone which goes into the fitting (only on male parts).
> 
> Alternatively you can use a couple of turns of P.T.F.E. tape.
> 
> I think all the members are supporting you and feeling your disappointment. Stick with it you have come a long way and learnt an awful lot and achieved a lot .
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> :good:


I think I may need to use PTFE or similar. I did the whole gentle tightening at either side, some of the pipes were out of kilter as to where they should be and so I guess are just not watertight.


----------



## Missy

Having calmed down slightly, there were a couple of loose joints, and then the two that go into the HX... For which my 22m spanner is slightly too small...

What size spanner do I need? I'm wondering if it's a plumbing thing I need?

I also realised I've only screwed the element in by hand. What will I need for that?

Little bit tired today- and getting increasingly stressed by having a useless machine and an unimpressed hubby!


----------



## joey24dirt

Loctite do ptfe thread, like dental floss, I used it on mine and it's better than tape. I can send you some down if you want as I have a few rolls of it


----------



## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> Loctite do ptfe thread, like dental floss, I used it on mine and it's better than tape. I can send you some down if you want as I have a few rolls of it


Need the bigger spanners first!!


----------



## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Need the bigger spanners first!!


Do you have a tape measure? Possibly 24mm


----------



## El carajillo

Missy said:


> Having calmed down slightly, there were a couple of loose joints, and then the two that go into the HX... For which my 22m spanner is slightly too small...
> 
> What size spanner do I need? I'm wondering if it's a plumbing thing I need?
> 
> I also realised I've only screwed the element in by hand. What will I need for that?
> 
> Little bit tired today- and getting increasingly stressed by having a useless machine and an unimpressed hubby!


Measure across the flats of the element nut, this will give you the size, I think you will find it is 1 1/2" = 38 mm (another visit to your friendly garage ?) Unless Joey has something suitable. I can post you a spanner but it is a big chunk of metal:whistle:


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## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Measure across the flats of the element nut, this will give you the size, I think you will find it is 1 1/2" = 38 mm (another visit to your friendly garage ?) Unless Joey has something suitable. I can post you a spanner but it is a big chunk of metal:whistle:


Yes that's what I measured it as!


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## Missy

So who knew anyone needed more than one spanner?!? (One is useful for such tasks as whacking spiders)

I ordered a 24mm spanner. And have now ordered a 38mm adjustable spanner... So perhaps did only need one after all! (Though I guess slippage is a risk with adjustable ones... So multiple spanners is justifiable?!)


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## joey24dirt

They will always come in handy. I have about three sets of tools. One at home. Full snap-on set up at the lock up and then my tools in the van. You can never have enough haha


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## Missy

I have a hammer... And now about 6 spanners.

And one of those big roll up tape measures.

Oddly I also own a scroll saw... But it's in the loft in our old house with a load of pieces of wood I will likely never use since we had kids.


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## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> I have a hammer... And now about 6 spanners.
> 
> And one of those big roll up tape measures.
> 
> Oddly I also own a scroll saw... But it's in the loft in our old house with a load of pieces of wood I will likely never use since we had kids.


You need a box to put it all in


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## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> You need a box to put it all in


I've got two...


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## Missy

Good news!

I'm alive

I'm down to two very small leaks...

Bad news... I've just electrocuted myself with a small child hanging off my sweater. He's fine. I'm a bit shaken and feeling like a Muppet.

Re the leaks they are where the HX meets the boiler.

(There was a leak coming from the group head, which had me very worried, until I realised I had the brew switch on doh! )

I know the answer is "take it all apart again and tighten those with PTFE tape" but honestly I just don't have the emotional capacity to fight with it all again. So is there some sort of putty I can smear on the outside to seal it? I wondered about silicon sealant? (Please please don't make me take it all apart again!)


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## 4515

I'm trying not to laugh at your shocking experience. We've all been there.

Sealing externally would be a temporary fix at best. If it was me, I'd remove and re-do the joint with PTFE (as much of a pain that this would be)


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## joey24dirt

Agree with WD. You need that ptfe in there otherwise you'll always have the niggling feeling about said joint and the tempory repair.

If you can, back off the nut and wrap with it all in situ. Hopefully there's enough room. If not, employ the small child and her small hands


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## El carajillo

You already know the answer, you are just fishing for sympathy:exit:


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## ashcroc

Bodge it so you can make a coffee to steel yourself to do it properly.


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## Missy

It's the purple bit, where it enters the HX. Best case I need to remove three pipes to be able to turn it.

But if there really is no other option I'll go hunt out some PTFE tape.


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## ashcroc

Missy said:


> It's the purple bit, where it enters the HX. Best case I need to remove three pipes to be able to turn it.
> 
> But if there really is no other option I'll go hunt out some PTFE tape.


I suppose you could braze it instead if you've got some oxy-acetylene handy but it'd be an absolute knightmare to dismantle again.


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## Missy

ashcroc said:


> I suppose you could braze it instead if you've got some oxy-acetylene handy but it'd be an absolute knightmare to dismantle again.


I've got some PVA glue? And a pritt stick...


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## El carajillo

Is there a seal on the joint / flange or does it rely on paste / PTFE on the thread ?

You will need to bring it back to the vertical position to line up the inner pipe (nearest the boiler) The outer one is rotatable by the look of it but will need more PTFE on the thread.

If the inner one has a seal for extra sealing in addition to PTFE on the threads. You can wind the PTFE into a length of string and form this into a grommet to fit against the shoulder.


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## Missy

It didn't have a seal when I took it apart. So I'm assuming it doesn't.


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## El carajillo

Just checked the parts diagram and it does not show a seal. How many turns of PTFE did you wind on the thread before assembly ?


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## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Just checked the parts diagram and it does not show a seal. How many turns of PTFE did you wind on the thread before assembly ?


None..

When I take it apart how many turns should I add?


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## Missy

Just to say when I took them apart there was some sort of sealant or glue on them that I cleaned off, which is why I thought I could just seal it up.


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## Missy

https://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-ls-x-leak-sealer-50ml/23614?tc=CA5&ds_kid=92700020953273763&ds_rl=1249799&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1249481&gclid=Cj0KCQjwv73VBRCdARIsAOnG8u0avdxQjtYQQSJPUVi7N44ygAwdND_wSx92yc3czGlrItSC98PfSHQaApNREALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CJOPj5vs-NkCFe-pUQodfZ4A0g

I was vaguely hoping I could smear this on?


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## El carajillo

Was it a fairly loose thread that you could easily turn in with your fingers ? If so try 6 full turns of tape. This should give you a 'firm' turn with a spanner and enable you to stop at a convenient point to line up the vertical pipe. IF this turns very easily you can add another couple of turns.

You can also wind about 500 mm into a thin string and wind this against the shoulder in addition to the above. Try the above option first.

Wind the tape against the direction you turn the fitting. Wind with the outside of the tape against the thread, this keeps the tape tight and allows you to use the roll to pull firmly. The other way the tape spools off the reel.


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## El carajillo

Missy said:


> https://www.screwfix.com/p/fernox-ls-x-leak-sealer-50ml/23614?tc=CA5&ds_kid=92700020953273763&ds_rl=1249799&ds_rl=1245250&ds_rl=1249481&gclid=Cj0KCQjwv73VBRCdARIsAOnG8u0avdxQjtYQQSJPUVi7N44ygAwdND_wSx92yc3czGlrItSC98PfSHQaApNREALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds&dclid=CJOPj5vs-NkCFe-pUQodfZ4A0g
> 
> I was vaguely hoping I could smear this on?


NO it is not for inside threads OR potable water. You could use the potable Water Hawk on the threads if you wish as an alternative.


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## Missy

Ah I meant smear on the outside... Not in the threads. I'd hoped to bodge it rather than unscrew again

It does say it's ok on potable water?

https://fernox.com/product/ls-x-external-leak-sealer-50ml/


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## El carajillo

As the boiler and pipework are under pressure and subject to considerable stress with heating and cooling it would be false economy to bodge it now.

You have put so much time, effort and money into your project it would be a shame to spoil it now.

If you do not do it correctly now you will be forever wondering IF /WHEN is it going to start leaking. Then you will have a full strip down again and clean up the. joints. Sorry but there re no short cuts. Think of the enjoyable coffee when it is done


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## Missy

Right. I've been out with the tape... And all joints are now leak free.... Except....

There's a steam leak from the tiny tube that feeds the Pressure gauge. It seems to have a different internal set up to the other things, the tube fits loosely down the hole.

Once I've cracked this... I've cracked it.

Except the hot water tap drips


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## Missy

https://photos.app.goo.gl/gY6GFuEWqcx4Cfik2

As you can see I've wrapped it in PTFE to zero effect.


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## 4085

been some journey Grace! Either divine intervention or more probably some useful soul can help you with this last bit. At least you now know it will give years of happy service!


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## joey24dirt

Hate to be a smart Alec but the tape should be wrapped in the other direction. That way when you tighten up the joint it won't chew the tape up as much  you're doing amazing though excellent work.


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## MildredM

I think you deserve a medal! You have done a cracking job


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## joey24dirt

I've also just watched the video. Is the face of the flared pipe ok? No dents or anything? Is it square to the fitting?


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## Missy

dfk41 said:


> been some journey Grace! Either divine intervention or more probably some useful soul can help you with this last bit. At least you now know it will give years of happy service!


Quite! It's been a learning curve. And my understanding of what constitutes a big spanner has changed considerably.


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## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> I've also just watched the video. Is the face of the flared pipe ok? No dents or anything? Is it square to the fitting?


It's square in, but it's not flat, it's like the bottom of a cor anglais... (Think a pipe with an egg at the end) but that's considerably smaller than the diameter of the hole (other fitting are face to face) I feel like there's a bit missing but afaik there isn't. I'll take some pics when it's cool

I'm wondering about getting a blanking nut, the pressure of the boiler is such a pointless indicator.

Oh and I've broken the new showerscreen already, and can't fit the old one in


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## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> It's square in, but it's not flat, it's like the bottom of a cor anglais... (Think a pipe with an egg at the end) but that's considerably smaller than the diameter of the hole (other fitting are face to face) I feel like there's a bit missing but afaik there isn't. I'll take some pics when it's cool
> 
> I'm wondering about getting a blanking nut, the pressure of the boiler is such a pointless indicator.
> 
> Oh and I've broken the new showerscreen already, and can't fit the old one in


If it's square and looks even then it might just need another nip up. ?


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## Missy

Nipping up didn't work. Further pictures in an attempt to show loose rattly "insert" and diameter of the hole.


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## joey24dirt

Does the olive go right through to the botttom of the boiler fitting? Or does it sit on the rim of that fitting?


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## joey24dirt

You could try wrapping the olive with some ptfe tape. That would bulk it up a bit and maybe help it seal.


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## El carajillo

Can you undo the nut and draw it back up the pipe and photograph the end of the pipe and the fitting it goes into ? Is the end flat to a tapered cone or an olive?

Joey is correct the tape is on the wrong way around.

The hot water tap probably needs a new washer /seal . You may have to remove the knob OR you may be able to just undo the tap fitting complete

(similar set up to a normal tap washer replacement)

You have done sterling work and the end is in sight. I think you have put many on the forum to shame with your can do attitude:good:







:good:


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## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Can you undo the nut and draw it back up the pipe and photograph the end of the pipe and the fitting it goes into ? Is the end flat to a tapered cone or an olive?


Hopefully you can see the fitting on the second pic. The hole in the boiler is just a hole, there's no internal tapering etc. So the bulbous bit (is that the olive?) Doesn't sit against anything even pushed right in.


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## Missy

A picture speaks a thousand words

... Especially when the speaker isn't sure what the right words are!


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## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Hopefully you can see the fitting on the second pic. The hole in the boiler is just a hole, there's no internal tapering etc. So the bulbous bit (is that the olive?) Doesn't sit against anything even pushed right in.


That seems odd. The olive needs something to seal up against  did you take any photos on the strip down you can refer to?


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## El carajillo

Sorry missed that photo, that is an olive, as Joey said try wrapping 3-4 turns of PTFE around the pipe and olive, just keep it fraction back from the end of the pipe.


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## Missy

joey24dirt said:


> That seems odd. The olive needs something to seal up against  did you take any photos on the strip down you can refer to?


No but I have the diagrams, and there's no suggestion of anything missing, and thts definitely where that pipe goes, and there's no other pipe it could be as it is a smaller diameter pipe.


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## El carajillo

Is that bright ring inside a shoulder or a trick of the light? does the piped olive push right into the boiler space or does it stop at that bright ring ?


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## ashcroc

Missy said:


> Nipping up didn't work. Further pictures in an attempt to show loose rattly "insert" and diameter of the hole.


Try it without the ptfe tape. On that type of fitting it's the olive (the egg shaped bit at the end) that makes the seal not the threads. The ptfe tape may be stopping you from tightening the nut up enough.


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## Missy

El carajillo said:


> Is that bright ring inside a shoulder or a trick of the light? does the piped olive push right into the boiler space or does it stop at that bright ring ?


It was indeed a shoulder.

Even without PTFE tape it was as tight as I could make it and steaming. I very carefully wrapped PTFE round the "not quite end" of the olive, and....

It's had a good half hour. I'm in all mornung, so will be monitoring it under pressure....and testing it. Lots.

Still stuff to do. I have new pressure stat, new emergency valve etc, and the leaking hot water (slow drip, it's not forcing the boiler to refill any more than before) but they can all wait until I'm fully recaffeinated, and less busy at work!


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## ashcroc

Congrats on getting it sorted!

It must've been a long month+ without an espresso type drink.


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## El carajillo

Missy said:


> It was indeed a shoulder.
> 
> Even without PTFE tape it was as tight as I could make it and steaming. I very carefully wrapped PTFE round the "not quite end" of the olive, and....
> 
> It's had a good half hour. I'm in all mornung, so will be monitoring it under pressure....and testing it. Lots.
> 
> Still stuff to do. I have new pressure stat, new emergency valve etc, and the leaking hot water (slow drip, it's not forcing the boiler to refill any more than before) but they can all wait until I'm fully recaffeinated, and less busy at work!


*WELL DONE THAT GIRL, PERSEVERANCE PAID OFF*































:drink:














:good:


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## Missy

Tweaking bits now. Including adding the o ring to the mushroom bit... After realising there must be a reason for super low pressure but loads of water returning to the tank via opv!! I got a bit wet... But I'm also on espresso #3 so who cares!!


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## El carajillo

Missy said:


> Tweaking bits now. Including adding the o ring to the mushroom bit... After realising there must be a reason for super low pressure but loads of water returning to the tank via opv!! I got a bit wet... But I'm also on espresso #3 so who cares!!


You have quite a few to catch up on then


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## 4515

Hows the steam power now that the machine has been stripped of the limescale ?


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## Missy

working dog said:


> Hows the steam power now that the machine has been stripped of the limescale ?


Steamy! But coming from the oscar, everything is a little weak!


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## joey24dirt

Missy said:


> Steamy! But coming from the oscar, everything is a little weak!


I fit a new wand to the Oscar. 4 holes and it's a beast. I'm finally getting used to it I think.


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## nightslayer

Have just bought a Little Gem (ex-cafe) off eBay at a decent price, and was planning on stripping it down and chucking the element and boiler in citric acid and replacing the seals, but now I'm really wondering if I've gotten myself in way above my head..

The machine is coming from Wales which apparently has soft water so my fingers and toes are crossed!


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## ashcroc

nightslayer said:


> Have just bought a Little Gem (ex-cafe) off eBay at a decent price, and was planning on stripping it down and chucking the element and boiler in citric acid and replacing the seals, but now I'm really wondering if I've gotten myself in way above my head..
> 
> The machine is coming from Wales which apparently has soft water so my fingers and toes are crossed!


I'm sure you'll do fine. Just remwmber to take loads of photos & notes so you lnow how it all goes together again.


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## nightslayer

I was trying to take apart my Gaggia and was stymied by a seized bolt - not entirely sure how well I'm going to fare with this one to be honest. Also don't seem to see much about the Little Gem (aside from the many jokes at the misnomer) on the forum!


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## nightslayer

Did a heavy descale (have not yet stripped it down though!) and the machine seems to function perfectly, fingers crossed! I have just one issue, which is that one of the rubber tubes leading from the OPV back up to the watertank seems to have sprung a leak. Have put electrical tape on it for the moment as a stopgap, but anyone knows what sort of diameter rubber tube I should be buying (and where would be a good/cheap place to buy them!) to replace this?


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## 4085

nightslayer said:


> Did a heavy descale (have not yet stripped it down though!) and the machine seems to function perfectly, fingers crossed! I have just one issue, which is that one of the rubber tubes leading from the OPV back up to the watertank seems to have sprung a leak. Have put electrical tape on it for the moment as a stopgap, but anyone knows what sort of diameter rubber tube I should be buying (and where would be a good/cheap place to buy them!) to replace this?


There are several Fracino dealers on here who I am sure will help, but if you want speed, ring Fracino tomorrow in Birmingham, tell them what you need. The postage will be more but you may as well get some seals and things you will need at some point


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## destiny

I got some off fleabay. I can check this evening and let you know what I got if you want?


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## nightslayer

destiny said:


> I got some off fleabay. I can check this evening and let you know what I got if you want?


Ended up getting some off fleabay too - all good!


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