# How to make the most of darker roast for someone who likes lighter roasts



## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

I'm experimenting with different coffees to learn what I like/don't like. So far I've tried some medium and lighter roasts and both me and my other half really like them. We've just opened a bag of Rave Signature blend (medium/dark, roasted 1st September) and it's definitely different. I'm brewing 18>36g aiming for 28 seconds @ 93 C. I add 140ml of steamed milk and it's definitely got a noticeable bitter afternote compared to the lighter roasts we've had.

I don't know if it's the recipe that needs tweaking or whether it's the character of darker roasts. Like my other half put it, "it's not as smooth as the other coffee, it's more in your face". I'm keen to continue my exploration journey with this and the other darker coffees lined up for tasting. How would you suggest I change the recipe so that it is more flavourful in milk drinks but not so bitter? I tried a finer grind to get that yield in 32 seconds and I definitely preferred the 27s one. I tried adding 160ml milk but the coffee begins to get lost and the bitterness is still there.

Thanks


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why are you aiming for a time? Time is not a reliable driver of extraction. Adjust grind coarser to steer the flavour, or pull less weight of shot out.

This assumes the bitterness is an artefact of over-extraction...can you describe the bitterness?


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

> Adjust grind coarser to steer the flavour, or pull less weight of shot out.


 Which of the two would you suggest I try next based on what I've described? I wish I could describe the bitterness but I've got a very untrained palate!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Try 31/32g of shot out.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Gotcha so a shorter pull. It's interesting because their site suggests a 1:2 ratio so that's what I used to guide the first few shots


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

You may also find a few more days rested make all the difference, I tend to go 14 days on Rave beans, as signature is not one of theirs I would associate with bitter, more buttery / caramel smooth.

John


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> Gotcha so a shorter pull. It's interesting because their site suggests a 1:2 ratio so that's what I used to guide the first few shots


 Ratio doesn't affect flavour, just intensity/concentration. A dark roast & a light roast dialled in to the same extraction at 1:2 will be the same in terms of strength...this is related to, but can be separate from flavour balance

You are saying the shot is bitter. We don't yet know why this is. So try extracting less and see what the result is. The easiest & quickest way to do this is pull less weight of shot out.

Drink it, report back, then we can go to step 2.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

This is great. Thanks. I'll try tomorrow and report back.

I hadn't realised how important resting is to flavours. More and more I come across this in my research


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

tripleshot said:


> This is great. Thanks. I'll try tomorrow and report back.
> 
> I hadn't realised how important resting is to flavours. More and more I come across this in my research


 I'd certainly agree with what John said above. 
As someone who roasts at home, often with a dark roast that I like in the early morning, you get a certain degree of 'roastiness' for the first week or so. This can taste like bitterness, but is more BBQ than dark chocolate. 
After a week or maybe 2 this mellows to a bitter sweet dark chocolate.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Ah that's interesting. Shame I opened the bag before it was fully rested then. It won't last long enough to make it into its prime period so I'll make sure I buy it again regardless and rest it properly before opening. I bought their taster pack, got a bag of Italian Job and Chatswood waiting in the wings.

Does temperature play a part on the flavour front? What temp should I brew it at?

To be fair, perhaps I am mistaking bitterness for something else (which I believe is quite common for newbies with an untrained palate). I'll spend a bit more time tasting the coffee tomorrow and try to qualify it more clearly and I'll report back.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

This has been interesting.

So the most enjoyable shot was 18g in, 27g out in 31 seconds this morning (first shot of the day after cleaning behind shower screen, not sure if that's relevant) . Bitterness was gone, it wasn't harsh and it cut nicely through less milk (90ml). I could taste almond in the first sip (which is exciting in itself as I never get flavour notes). I was surprised at the difference in taste to be honest.

But here's the kicker. I've made lots of coffees throughout the day and the shots got faster despite me keeping prep the same and grinding finer in order to slow the shot down. I wasn't able to achieve 27g yield in more than 24 seconds and the difference in the cup was very noticeable - the drinks have been very harsh (kept milk at 90ml) and some I couldn't drink more than a few sips.

I've now finished the 250g bag so quite disappointed that after some consistent timings yesterday today it's felt like I was grinding finer and finer to chase a slower flow. Almost as if once the bag was opened the beans started degrading quite rapidly (I use an Atmos vacuum jar to store beans but yeah that's been opened/closed multiple times throughout the day).

The other thing I noticed is about 2g of large bean particles at the bottom of the bag/jar (see photo). I have not seen this with any other beans I've tried. So the second to last shot I wonder if it produced inconsistent grind size as a result? Is that possible? For the last shot I actually fished out all the whole beans (Very tedious!) but that's not made a difference to the shot time. Is this normal for a darker roast?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> This has been interesting.
> 
> So the most enjoyable shot was 18g in, 27g out in 31 seconds this morning (first shot of the day after cleaning behind shower screen, not sure if that's relevant) . Bitterness was gone, it wasn't harsh and it cut nicely through less milk (90ml). I could taste almond in the first sip (which is exciting in itself as I never get flavour notes). I was surprised at the difference in taste to be honest.
> 
> But here's the kicker. I've made lots of coffees throughout the day and the shots got faster despite me keeping prep the same and grinding finer in order to slow the shot down. I wasn't able to achieve 27g yield in more than 24 seconds and the difference in the cup was very noticeable - the drinks have been very harsh (kept milk at 90ml) and some I couldn't drink more than a few sips.


 So the finer shots were harsh?

You are trying to extract less, so pulling a shorter shot at the original grind will take less time on average. Some drift in shot time is normal and not a problem, assuming your prep is consistent and you aren't including day old grinds in your 1st dose of the day.

I don't know why you are putting so much emphasis on time,.

You are also adding less milk, you said that you were initially adding 140ml of milk, now it's 90ml...so we have two possible explanations for for harsher drinks.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

After opening the bag it is expected to see some faster flow, but in one day seems a bit strange. The presence of ground (coarser I would guess) coffee in the bag can mess up with your grinding as the coarse ground does not "see" the burs and as a result you will have a mix of finely ground beans and the coarse ground that could reduce the cake resistance whence the faster flow. This is a pure speculation but you can check it with another bag when you open it and make sure it is beans only this time 🙂


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Sorry, I meant that I've been trying to replicate my morning shot all day (and the morning shot had 90ml milk so milk amount has stayed consistent throughout the day). I wouldn't put emphasis on the time if the drink was as enjoyable but the 31s one was enjoyable, the other ones at 24s and below were not. So I've been trying to grind finer in order to get 27s yield in the 31s-ish I achieved this morning. Prep and routine have been as consistent as I am able to achieve.

But regardless, doesn't time (as a consequence of how long water spends with the coffee) matter to the final taste in the cup? Matt Perger and James Hoffman's videos on YouTube suggests that adjusting grind and/or prep so that flow is accelerated/slowed down by a couple of seconds can make a big difference to final taste.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> Sorry, I meant that I've been trying to replicate my morning shot all day (and the morning shot had 90ml milk so milk amount has stayed consistent throughout the day). I wouldn't put emphasis on the time if the drink was as enjoyable but the 31s one was enjoyable, the other ones at 24s and below were not. So I've been trying to grind finer in order to get 27s yield in the 31s-ish I achieved this morning. Prep and routine have been as consistent as I am able to achieve.
> 
> But regardless, doesn't time (as a consequence of how long water spends with the coffee) matter to the final taste in the cup? Matt Perger and James Hoffman's videos on YouTube suggests that adjusting grind and/or prep so that flow is accelerated/slowed down by a couple of seconds can make a big difference to final taste.


 You were at 18:36g. So, as shots were bitter & over-extraction was a possibility, I suggested you extract 4-5g less at the same grind. This will extract less & take less time on average, but there could still be overlap, because coffee grinds can't tell the time, nor adhere to schedules. The grind setting sets the extraction, the time is just a byproduct of the grind setting, but time has a much larger standard deviation. Therefore it is not as reliable as a diagnostic.

So, you extracted 9g less than original target. It was nice & took 31s. Further shots were faster & harsher, so why not try extracting a little more, in the first instance, to lift extraction again.

You mentioned that you have now finished a 250g bag. How long did this bag last you? How many good shots did you get out of it?

Hoffmann & Perger suggest adjusting grind & or dose. Yes, they mention time, but flow rates and shot times don't guarantee consisency. If they did no one would ever pull a bad shot in the correct time, or flow rate. Flow rate is just weight in the cup divided by shot time, it isn't directly anchored in dose, or ratio...therefore it is a nonsense parameter. A 1:3 shot would take 1.5x as long as a 1:2 shot, or twice as long as a 1:1.5 shot. This will not pan out in the real world.

Perger also has a video on volumetrics vs time & it shows the consistency follows the ratio, not the time. Grind a shot fr espresso dump it into 5x the weight of 93C eater and the Sun will go out before it hits 9& or 10%TDS. Go by grind size, taste & ratio.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

MWJB said:


> So, you extracted 9g less than original target. It was nice & took 31s. Further shots were faster & harsher, so why not try extracting a little more, in the first instance, to lift extraction again.


 Looking at my notes, that's what the attempt after my hero shot was for as I wanted to see what a 1:2 would taste in comparison. I did make the grind a tad coarser -- the rationale behind this was that if I pulled 1:1.5 in 31 seconds then a 1:2 would probably take me to 35 which based on yesterday's experience I knew I didn't like. That shot was 29g yield in 24s and it tasted harsh, presumably under-extracted. Next one got 37g yield in 20 seconds. Could have been a dud, bad prep I guess. But after that I kept trying to go back to my hero shot from the morning and then ran out of beans.

So to answer your question, I got one memorable shot from a 250g beans. I'm not too bothered at this stage because I'm still learning and this hasn't put me off the Signature blend but I'd like to understand where I went wrong and what I should do next time.

It's a new bag of Italian Job tomorrow, roasted on the 2nd so it will have rested for 9 days. I'm going to go off the back of Signature and aim for an initial 1:1.5 in 25-30s and see how I get on. Does that sound sensible?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> It's a new bag of Italian Job tomorrow, roasted on the 2nd so it will have rested for 9 days. I'm going to go off the back of Signature and aim for an initial 1:1.5 in 25-30s and see how I get on. Does that sound sensible?


 It would be better to aim for 1:1.5 at a grind setting that tasted good & just note how long it took.


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Sorry, very important detail I left out re grinding. I have a Ceado E37S and I have just upgraded the burrs to SSP Red Speed (2 days ago). I only put 500g of old beans through it so they are definitely still being broken in and could explain the inconsistency?


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

MWJB said:


> It would be better to aim for 1:1.5 at a grind setting that tasted good & just note how long it took.


 Yeah that's what I usually do. I have a spreadsheet to keep track but I do always put down what I'm aiming for (just so I can compare to outcome). But I stop the shot when I reach the desired yield not by time (although I sometimes change my mind on the fly depending on how the shot is looking like it will pan out)


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## tripleshot (Jun 3, 2020)

Just an update on this in case anyone else stumbles across this. I contacted Rave and they said the coarse grinds should absolutely not be at the bottom of my bag and they would send a replacement bag. I opened the Italian Job bag today and it's absolutely fine. Great customer service.

Onto the coffee. I cleaned the grinder out and started on the Italian Job today. I thought I'd start with the same grind setting that gave me that lovely shot yesterday on the Signature -- 1.8. It was very very slow so decided to pull it really short,. I got 16.6 yield in 61 seconds! Dose was 17.8g dose, I cut the pump too quickly as I didn't account for the slower flow! I expected this to be horrible but was determined to taste it anyway with 100ml milk. It was so amazed how nice it tasted. Definitely under extracted and not quote coffee-y enough but held up against the milk well considering and had a smooth pleasant taste. No hint of bitterness whatsoever which I was quite shocked about to be honest

I then adjusted the grind to 1.95 and got 27g out in 32s (dose 18.1g). Definitely more coffee-y than previous shot but not bitter. I kept milk the same 100ml and it was very nice. Flavour notes on this are dark chocolate and walnut. I didn't get that but definitely got something that reminded me of fudge.

This bean is definitely not quite dialled in yet (I will stick with this grind settings and 1:1.5 ratio to see if I get consistent results; I expect the next shot to be a bit faster as the new grind setting really stabilises) but both initial shots have been memorable and tore down the pre conceived notion I held that dark roast beans are bitter and closer to what you'd get in a Nero than a Prufrock

The key takeaways for me are:

1) the right recipe makes ALL the difference

2) based on what I've tried so far, I enjoyed the shorter pulls from darker roast (but will make sure to go longer again just to keep comparing and experimenting -- but not just yet, my goal right now is to get a consistent taste experience a few shots in a row)


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

tripleshot said:


> Onto the coffee. I cleaned the grinder out and started on the Italian Job today. I thought I'd start with the same grind setting that gave me that lovely shot yesterday on the Signature -- 1.8. It was very very slow so decided to pull it really short,. I got 16.6 yield in 61 seconds! Dose was 17.8g dose, I cut the pump too quickly as I didn't account for the slower flow! I expected this to be horrible but was determined to taste it anyway with 100ml milk. It was so amazed how nice it tasted. Definitely under extracted and not quote coffee-y enough but held up against the milk well considering and had a smooth pleasant taste. No hint of bitterness whatsoever which I was quite shocked about to be honest


 This is quite normal. There is a range of significant under-extraction (often around 12-14%EY) where you get sweet but simple cups, with very little bitterness, nor sourness.


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