# Very fast extraction, what am I doing wrong? Gaggia Classic (Video)



## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

Hi All

Recently picked up a Gaggia Classic and Iberital MC2 and have been trying to get to grips with it (I am an absolute novice).

I've had some nice tasting shots but have found extraction to be very fast (half the recommended duration for a double) and I can't seem to be able to resolve it with adjusting grinder and it isn't seemingly specific to the beans. I imagined it was too coarse but I've made it finer (at one point so fine the water wouldn't actually come through).

Is it likely a pressure issue (too high)?

All feedback much appreciated

The coffee is Rave's Chatswood Blend and was only roasted on 11th Dec (just over 2 weeks ago).

Thanks

Video:


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You need to set parameters

What basket ? What dose ( in grams t the nearest 0.1g )

How much espresso out in grams , in what time .

Otherwise we re guessing , what is too quick in what time etc

The MC2 needs alot fo turning to get small adjustments also .

How old is the coffee ? how it is being stored ?


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

In the video you seem to be tamping in mid air rather than on the worktop - is that the case?


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

salty said:


> In the video you seem to be tamping in mid air rather than on the worktop - is that the case?


Yes, is that an issue? As I say, absolute novice!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mouzone said:


> Yes, is that an issue? As I say, absolute novice!


Only if its not producng a level tamp . Do't worry about exact pressure , just doing the same thing each time . On a worktop can help you be level and apply roughly the same amount of pressure each time


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> You need to set parameters
> 
> What basket ? What dose ( in grams t the nearest 0.1g )
> 
> ...


Sorry, I put most of the info in the video but didn't post it again in this thread.

Double basket, 14g dose, 60+g out in 12 seconds.

Coffee is two weeks old. It was stored in its original packaging.

Thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Mouzone said:


> Sorry, I put most of the info in the video but didn't post it again in this thread.
> 
> Double basket, 14g dose, 60+g out in 12 seconds.
> 
> ...


You need to go way finer. Id would suggest going to 16g dose in a standard gaggia basket also > this will help slow the flow , but you still need to turn that grinder adjustment a fair bit . Small adjustments on that grinder dont effect the flow rate much .


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Mouzone said:


> Yes, is that an issue? As I say, absolute novice!


In a word - yes!

You may be getting a reasonably flat bed but the coffee won't be anywhere close to sufficiently compressed.

You need to be tamping with the portafilter on a firm surface and the most frequently quoted tamping pressure is 30lbs - this may be a good starting point https://baristahustle.com/blogs/barista-hustle/how-hard-should-you-tamp


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Only if its not producng a level tamp . Do't worry about exact pressure , just doing the same thing each time . On a worktop can help you be level and apply roughly the same amount of pressure each time


Ok great, good to know. I find my tamp is often even enough.

To be honest I was trying to show the camera so it was a bit of an unnatural tamp in the video. That being said I still don't normally tamp it against a hard flat surface, something to consider though.


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## u2jewel (Aug 17, 2017)

Nice video editing! ☺


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

Mouzone said:


> Ok great, good to know. I find my tamp is often even enough.
> 
> To be honest I was trying to show the camera so it was a bit of an unnatural tamp in the video. That being said I still don't normally tamp it against a hard flat surface, something to consider though.


Do you normally find that you don't get a fast extraction?

If you've ground the coffee superfine, a very light tamp may be enough, even if it's in mid air. But you're unlikely to be getting a consistent bed of coffee that doesn't have gaps (channels) in it, which allow the water to pass through quickly and unevenly, and you won't be able to replicate it time after time - to do that you need to have a firm surface and be applying the same pressure each time. I'm speaking from personal experience here as a newbie to espresso who has been working hard to get consistent shots


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

salty said:


> Do you normally find that you don't get a fast extraction?
> 
> If you've ground the coffee superfine, a very light tamp may be enough, even if it's in mid air. But you're unlikely to be getting a consistent bed of coffee that doesn't have gaps (channels) in it, which allow the water to pass through quickly and unevenly, and you won't be able to replicate it time after time - to do that you need to have a firm surface and be applying the same pressure each time. I'm speaking from personal experience here as a newbie to espresso who has been working hard to get consistent shots


I do often get a fast extraction so I think this is something worth looking into.

I've pulled another few shots with a harder tamp and a finer grind (I know I've committed a sin by adjusting two variables at once) and the extraction is much closer to what is considered normal (22 ish sec for 55g off of an 14g dose). Still some further tweaking to be done. Flavour is more intense and sharper.

Ill try and tune the grinder further tomorrow and stick with a harder tamp. At some point I may consider a different tamping approach but happy to follow your advice for now!

Big thanks to you and @Mrboots2u as it gives me something to focus on, adjust and experiment with (by one variable at a time in the future).


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## Inglorious Alf (Jul 2, 2017)

55g espresso from 14g beans is a high ratio. I had a Gaggia for a few years and I always aimed for 16g beans, 32g espresso with a new bean. While you're getting to grips with it all I'd aim for a ratio of 1:2 in around 30 seconds. Definitely tamp on a hard surface (put a scale underneath to get a feel for what 30lb pressure feels like) and then adjust your grind finer til you're around 30 seconds.

For consistency you'll also need to consider the required Gaggia temperature surf if you're not doing it already!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Grind finer , don't tamp in mid air


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Inglorious Alf said:


> 55g espresso from 14g beans is a high ratio. I had a Gaggia for a few years and I always aimed for 16g beans, 32g espresso with a new bean. While you're getting to grips with it all I'd aim for a ratio of 1:2 in around 30 seconds. Definitely tamp on a hard surface (put a scale underneath to get a feel for what 30lb pressure feels like) and then adjust your grind finer til you're around 30 seconds.
> 
> For consistency you'll also need to consider the required Gaggia temperature surf if you're not doing it already!


The ratio is only high if the taste isnt good.

1:2 in 30 seconds isnt a magic bullet , new people often get told this , and get to the required mantra only to discover they don't enjoy the drink.

Yes in my weighing article its what i suggest to start with to , but people never seem to explore beyond it to discover their personal preference .

I see a load of thread where people start with my extraction if fine , its 1:2 and 30 seconds , but it tastes bad .....go figure.

Personally id up the dose to 16g . Start at 48 in 25 > 35 seconds although time isnt really that important

If took weak and or bitter then start tightening the grind and reducing the ratio until it gets to a sweet , drink of good strength .

This may well end up being 1:2 but it really doesn't have to be.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Where is your metal tube to channel the waste water from the OPV?









I have circled the missing bit. I noticed in your video that the water pours out the outlet into midair?

If you got the machine used and this didn't come with it you can buy very cheaply on eBay - I can point you in the direction if needed.

And as the others said - grind much much finer, ramp level on a surface.

Also, research WDT techniques. I have found this essential with my Classic - makes superb shots with a bit of mixing the grinds, but usually suffer channelling and gusher shots if I don't do this.


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## destiny (Jun 4, 2015)

Wonder if your machine may still have the pump running at high pressure.. Do you know if OPV mod was done?

My Classic with the mod was able to pull shots at 18g dose in 40-60s for 1:2 ratio so super slow.

Up the dose to 15g min and look up a coin basket check.. (you fit 2p on top of tamped grinds and fit to machine and check indentation) Not sure if 16g will fit standard Gaggia double basket.


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> Where is your metal tube to channel the waste water from the OPV?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Rob - I do normally have it attached I just forgot to reattach after removing the drip tray! I suppose a plus of not having it attached for the video is that you can see when the switch is hit.

I've had a look into WDT and have tried to adopt it - it seems to be helping me to get a nice full and even distribution.

Thanks again


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

destiny said:


> Wonder if your machine may still have the pump running at high pressure.. Do you know if OPV mod was done?
> 
> My Classic with the mod was able to pull shots at 18g dose in 40-60s for 1:2 ratio so super slow.
> 
> Up the dose to 15g min and look up a coin basket check.. (you fit 2p on top of tamped grinds and fit to machine and check indentation) Not sure if 16g will fit standard Gaggia double basket.


Apparently it hasn't been altered so it's presumably at 15 bar. Ill patiently wait for a gauge to do the rounds until I decide I need it done and buy one.

I've managed to get a much slower extraction so I am now just tweaking the grind to see if I can find a happy medium which tastes good!

Thanks for your advice


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

If you are in Bristol come and borrow my gauge. If you aren't and can't find one, then buy one - I have used mine loads of times just to nudge pressure up and down every now and then.


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> If you are in Bristol come and borrow my gauge. If you aren't and can't find one, then buy one - I have used mine loads of times just to nudge pressure up and down every now and then.


That's very kind of you, thanks.

Unfortunately I'm based in Colchester so can't take you up on that.

I imagine I'll inevitably buy one soon!


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

Adjusting the OPV isn't going to solve your gushing extraction. I used my Classic for 2 years before the OPV mod.

I suspect if you used a naked PF, there would be coffee spraying everywhere. Your immediate problem is the grind is too coarse for the dose weight and distribution is not very good.

Consistency is important - same dose weight, same distribution technique, same tamp pressure/technique (the pressure isn't critical). Problem is that the MC2 is not that consistent in grind quality. I have used one and found it could wander quit a bit. It has a worm drive adjuster so takes a few turns to move the upper burr by much. You can take the top off and watch how the gear moves. Nevertheless you should still be able to get a decent extraction with this set-up.

With a standard classic basket I dose 17g so the first thing you could try is increasing the dose.


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

StuartS said:


> Adjusting the OPV isn't going to solve your gushing extraction. I used my Classic for 2 years before the OPV mod.
> 
> I suspect if you used a naked PF, there would be coffee spraying everywhere. Your immediate problem is the grind is too coarse for the dose weight and distribution is not very good.
> 
> ...


Thanks Stuart. Pretty happy that the timing is more reasonable now due to adjustments with the grinder and a harder tamp. Still tinkering and experimenting a little.

I do have a naked PF and before I adjusted the grinder and increased the pressure of my tamp, surprisingly, I got quite a nice extraction, a nice cone in the middle and no spray. It was just very quick!


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Hi Mouzone,

lots of advice on here which is all relevant but maybe not if you are just beginning. i do agree with Stuart that you need consistency before you can make use of further advice. without it, you will be lost.

i've used an MC2 on a gaggia classic for years and managed to understand it enough to get good results most of the time. I'm still using that grinder on a much more expensive machine for the same purpose of trying to be keep some consistency before i upgrade. Anyway, i can give you a few bits of advice which i would have appreciated at the time.

1 - be consistent in everything you do or you will never know what changes make any difference. don't worry if its not what others are doing. you have to start somwhere

2 - with fresh beans, even roasted to the same degree, the iberital grinder can need as much as 7 full turns of the worm screw to keep it dialed in between different sets of beans! it is a very fine adjustment.

3 - don't try to grind peaberry beans - it will jam

4 - keep track of how many turns your grinder is on, as the MC2 has no gauge - i use some kids fridge magnet numbers.... 1 for every full turn.

5 - the gaggia will scale up if you aren't using bottled water - just be aware that when your shots start to go awry, and the milk won't froth, this might be the cause

tips for being consistent - see this as a starting point and tweak from here when you can get consistent results.

1 - if possible use the same mail order beans for a long period of time until you have it cracked. using other brands, roasts, types will mean making grinder adjustments and make it harder to track. don't buy off the shelf beans or even posh off the shelf beans - you need the consistency of someone who roasts to order.

2 - heat the machine up for the same amount of time... probably 20mins. there is much more to this, but for later

3 - weigh exactly 15.0g to start with. with experience, you will know when to make minor adjustments +/-0.5g say, based on the last shot for example, or if you need to dose more to taste, say 18.0g per shot

4 - the grinder retains about 1g of coffee in the chute, unless you clear it. this dries out quickly so if it ends up in your grinds the next day, you probably want to dose up by 0.5g.

5 - use the same filter basket - doubles and triples and different brands all behave differently so can require grinder adjustments etc.

6 - however you decide to tamp, do it the same way - i pour loose grounds into the basket, give it a few light knocks on a tamping mat, spin the tamper on the grounds and then press.... firmly... each to their own.

7 - weigh your shots every time - aim for twice the weight of the coffee grinds - so 30g for 15g of coffee. yes, other extract ratios are still okay, but i would test this later

8 - time your shots - much debate about this as with everything. choose something and stick to it for now. i time from the first drip of coffee and aim for 25-27 secs. don't worry if you hit 20 or 35 secs or worse - consider this more like a guide to knowing what you got. either way, stop at 30g and try what you make.

9 - milk - i'm not going to go there, but only to say that good milk will make a coffee taste very different so bear in mind.

10 - change 1 thing at a time, and repeat for about 10 years.

hope this helps, sorry for the brain dump.


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## John James (Jun 7, 2014)

richwade80 said:


> 8 - time your shots - much debate about this as with everything. choose something and stick to it for now. i time from the first drip of coffee and aim for 25-27 secs. don't worry if you hit 20 or 35 secs or worse - consider this more like a guide to knowing what you got. either way, stop at 30g and try what you make.


A question for you clever people. I time from switching the brew button on rather than when the first drip of coffee appears. It takes about 5 or 6 seconds after switching on to the first drip. Does this mean I am extracting too quickly?

I have 17g to 32 g in about 35 seconds.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

John James said:


> A question for you clever people. I time from switching the brew button on rather than when the first drip of coffee appears. It takes about 5 or 6 seconds after switching on to the first drip. Does this mean I am extracting too quickly?
> 
> I have 17g to 32 g in about 35 seconds.


That sounds about right. Anything up to about ten seconds before drips come through. Time from when you hit the switch not when you see coffee.


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## Roarence (Jan 17, 2018)

You said you got it fine enough so that the water will not come through, and it choked. Good! Now pull it back coarser just everrrr soo slightlyyy


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Missy said:


> That sounds about right. Anything up to about ten seconds before drips come through. Time from when you hit the switch not when you see coffee.


i guess each machine does it differently, and for different doses (15g vs 18g or 21g) there is a very different lag to the first drip. To try and get around that, i have always timed from the first drip. Even i was not convinced this is right, but i stuck with it to be consistent.... practically all my drinks are with a 15g dose so i tend to note how long it takes to get 30g and see what the difference in taste was - typically this can be around 24-32s depending on a million different factors. i was planning a whole new topic on coffee expectations... but in short i found that shorter extracts were sometimes more flavorful, and that would support timing from the moment you hit the switch.... or you could just adjust the time after the first drip...


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

It's really a case of how long the water has been in contact with the coffee, that starts when you flip the switch.


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## Grateful Ant (Nov 29, 2017)

Hi As a novice I understand my first few post were all begging for help with the Mc2 but stick with it I'm just finding my feet with it now and really enjoying making espressos. One thing I did notice and searching the old threads someone also had a problem with the hopper being a bit lose and I you don't realise it spins when grinding and as it spins it's taking the worm screw so over a time your grind will get finer and finer each use without realising it. To stop it running away with it's self I just put a couple of turns of sellotape around the bottom of the hopper. Sorry if my ramble is no help I'm a novice just thought it might help.


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

Grateful Ant said:


> Hi As a novice I understand my first few post were all begging for help with the Mc2 but stick with it I'm just finding my feet with it now and really enjoying making espressos. One thing I did notice and searching the old threads someone also had a problem with the hopper being a bit lose and I you don't realise it spins when grinding and as it spins it's taking the worm screw so over a time your grind will get finer and finer each use without realising it. To stop it running away with it's self I just put a couple of turns of sellotape around the bottom of the hopper. Sorry if my ramble is no help I'm a novice just thought it might help.


Thanks Ant, I'll be mindful of that and see if I can prevent it from changing. I'm quite happy with it but the amount of adjusting can be a bit of pain and can result in wasted beans.

I'll certainly stick with it and I am finding it easier to work with as time goes by.


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

@Mouzone - how are you getting on with this now? Are tasty espressos within your grasp...??!


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> @Mouzone - how are you getting on with this now? Are tasty espressos within your grasp...??!


They are indeed, thanks. I have a much finer grind generally now. When I was first increasing the fineness (quite drastically), it was a bit disconcerting as the pump was running for 8-10 seconds yet there were no drops of espresso. However, I then get a nice dark thin streak that gives me a much better (lower) ratio out than the fast-pouring shots before.

I probably get 30g (14g in) in about 35 seconds now and I've actually found I prefer the taste of a much slower extraction. The original outputs I was getting were fine but I'm certainly enjoying the new ones more. I'm always adding my espresso to 8-10 oz of hot water as I never gravitate away from a black Americano.

My tamping technique feels much more natural and consistent now too (I got myself a tamping mat which helps balance the portafilter flat). Either way I am very happy and loving the weekends or the occasional day working from home as I have great coffee on tap!

Thank you (and everyone else on the thread) for your help


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

Fantastic news!

I used to prefer 35 second pulls on Classic also - I found they had more body and flavour that he classic 30s recommended.

Get yourself a naked PF next. That will give you the next massive step up in shot flavour and quality - it really will.

And investigate WDT. Some use a cocktail stick. I made a better one from small whisk from Wilko. That will massively help. There was a thread on here middle of last year trying to make whisk stirrers that performed as well as the expensive Londinium whisks.


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## jerbla (Nov 13, 2017)

reference the timing discussion may I share a very interesting exercise that I did when I was taking a course recently.

Set your machine up for your standard extraction, and with three receivers and a time start the machine and take the first 15 secs on to one glass, the next 15 seconds into another another 15 seconds into a 3rd glass.

This will then illustrate how the flavour changes and develop through the extraction and hits what we hope will be "Balanced" in our 30-35 extraction.

This will hopefully illustrate the impacts of Under and over extractions and the flavours that arise from that.

I found this very informative on the course.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jerbla said:


> reference the timing discussion may I share a very interesting exercise that I did when I was taking a course recently.
> 
> Set your machine up for your standard extraction, and with three receivers and a time start the machine and take the first 15 secs on to one glass, the next 15 seconds into another another 15 seconds into a 3rd glass.
> 
> ...


This assumes that it takes 45s to over-extract a shot, this generally isn't so.

On a balanced shot, the very last drips out of the PF will be bland slightly & bitter, if still bright & juicy you are likely under-extracting.

Extraction is the total of what lands in the cup, we don't base a shot's taste on separate portions, unless we're perhaps putting a band aid over a malfunction.

A variation might be to pull 4 shots, same grind & everything else, at 1:1, 1:2, 1:3 & 1:4 & see how they compare.

An alternative is


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## jerbla (Nov 13, 2017)

More a means to show how the shot changes, you could I guess, but was not shown this on my Barista foundation course, break it down by each 10 seconds. More way of illustrating where and how a balanced shot is made up

The variation suggested is I am sure a better way to assess your extraction as they are all full shots, which I agree is probably more applicable in this sense.



MWJB said:


> This assumes that it takes 45s to over-extract a shot, this generally isn't so.
> 
> On a balanced shot, the very last drips out of the PF will be bland slightly & bitter, if still bright & juicy you are likely under-extracting.
> 
> ...


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## Mouzone (Dec 9, 2017)

rob177palmer said:


> Fantastic news!
> 
> I used to prefer 35 second pulls on Classic also - I found they had more body and flavour that he classic 30s recommended.
> 
> ...


I've been using the length of a pen / fork handle to date to distribute across the breadth of the basket. I could definitely take a better approach. I'll take a look into a better DIY tool option at the weekend


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

These are amazing when coupled with the funnel http:// https://londiniumespresso.com/news/londinium-distribution-tool-funnel

I'll see if I i can track down the thread


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## rob177palmer (Feb 14, 2017)

http:// https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?39604-W-d-t-tool-whisk


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