# Need help with technique after switching to bottomless portafilter



## MichaelBurgess (Feb 22, 2016)

Hi there,

I've just recently switched to using a bottomless portafilter and I'm now getting some pretty poor results that I just can't seem to shake off, so am looking for some diagnosis and help if possible please!

I used to have a Gaggia New Baby Dose up until about 4 months ago, when I switched to a Rocket R58. I've had a Mazzer Mini Electronic Type A for a while. Towards the end of my time with the Gaggia, I felt like I was getting the best I could out of it and initially with the Rocket I noticed an improvement in almost everything - pour, crema, taste etc. In the last few weeks I've switched to a bottomless portafilter to try and analyse my shots and I'm now fairly disheartened with what's happening. I've watched tons of videos, read blog posts and tried tweaking grind settings, dosing, methods during dosing, different levelling techniques, different tamp pressures (always one thing at a time), but I'm getting crazy shot channelling and a rather messy machine/worktop afterwards. The frustrating thing is that they still taste good with milk (compared to my Gaggia or the average high-street coffee chains), but I know I'm missing out on a lot of shot subtleties that my setup could bring me.

Here's a link to a series of pictures from a shot I just pulled. This will give you a rough idea of what I'm doing and hopefully someone can suggest some things to try!

http://mnetuk.com/CoffeeShotAnalysis.zip

01 - These are the beans I'm using right now. Roasted very recently - 4th April, but I get the same issue with older beans up to a couple of weeks old.

02 - My setup. Rocket is set to 104 degrees C brew boiler temp. I backflush the machine at least every other day with the blind basket.

03 - The coffee after grinding. I've played around with various techniques and have read in a few places not to tap and distribute the grounds during grinding. This was 18.5g of coffee FYI.

04 - After levelling. No doubt lots of issues, but I don't want to play with the coffee too much. I'm levelling, but not tapping the coffee down on the surface. I've also tried just tamping straight after grinding i.e. without levelling.

05 - My tamper - Motta 58mm, flat bottom

06 - After tamping - I always find that there are grinds up around the outside of the basket and that my Motta and the supplied Rocket tamper aren't a perfect fit - there's a bit of play in there

07 - Early shot pull, 2 streams

08 - The beginning of channelling on the right

09 - Calms down a bit, but no tiger stripes!

10 - Becomes erratic again

11 - Channelling much?!

12 - The mess I'm left with!

13 - Thin crema, falls away easily

14 - Still tastes good, but I know it could taste a lot better!

I forgot to take a picture of the puck - they are typically not too wet, very slightly spongy and pretty much knock out in one tap although there's always a thin rim left near to the portafilter handle.

This may be information overload, or possibly just too much to advise on, but if anyone has some baby steps I can try to try an eliminate potential issues that would be great thanks. If anyone has any qu's etc then please let me know and I'd be glad to answer!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Clip is better for prep and diagnosis help

point 6 better fitting tamper may also help...

4 days post roast may be too fresh

ignore - tiger stripes - each coffee and roast will look different to some degree

ignore the puck post shot , look at the extraction

are you using a stock double basket ?


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## MichaelBurgess (Feb 22, 2016)

By clip should I upload a video? I tried to attach pics, but there's a limit of 5.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MichaelBurgess said:


> By clip should I upload a video? I tried to attach pics, but there's a limit of 5.


Clip yep - video .. prep and extraction

I aded some more stuff to my original post


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## Khashy (Mar 10, 2015)

Have you tried WDT? 95% of my channelling problems went away after I started to WDT before I level.

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## Khashy (Mar 10, 2015)

http://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distribution-technique-steps.html

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## MichaelBurgess (Feb 22, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Clip is better for prep and diagnosis help
> 
> point 6 better fitting tamper may also help...
> 
> ...


Thanks for the points - will try to get a video together later or tomorrow.

I'm using the stock double basket that came with the machine. The basket that came with the Rocket bottomless portafilter seems quite a bit bigger (taller and more cylindrical shaped - upright edges) and I felt like I was introducing yet another variable to blow my mind with by switching to it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok that's all good . You using a Yirg - light roasted - you won't get the same tiger stripes that a more developed roast will give you that you are in espresso porn clips


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## MichaelBurgess (Feb 22, 2016)

Khashy said:


> Have you tried WDT? 95% of my channelling problems went away after I started to WDT before I level.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I haven't tried it and can definitely give it a go.


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## Khashy (Mar 10, 2015)

MichaelBurgess said:


> I haven't tried it and can definitely give it a go.


It's definitely worth a try. Just pick something that is thin to stir with.

I use a dental probe:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/ulk/itm/151305294689


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Have you tried dropping the dose to 16g? You could be grinding too fine to fit 18.5g into a stock double (I haven't been able to view the pics yet.). The taller basket you received with the bottomless is going to be a triple basket.

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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

If as Rob1 above suggesting and makes sense based on the bottomless that I got for the Silvia, then 21g would be a more appropriate dose for that basket.

Nothing to stop you putting the std double basket that came with the R58 in the bottomless though ( apologies if you already done this)

John


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## MichaelBurgess (Feb 22, 2016)

Rob1 said:


> Have you tried dropping the dose to 16g? You could be grinding too fine to fit 18.5g into a stock double (I haven't been able to view the pics yet.). The taller basket you received with the bottomless is going to be a triple basket.
> 
> Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


Don't think I've ever dropped that low, certainly not with the Rocket, but will give it a whirl


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## MichaelBurgess (Feb 22, 2016)

johnealey said:


> If as Rob1 above suggesting and makes sense based on the bottomless that I got for the Silvia, then 21g would be a more appropriate dose for that basket.
> 
> Nothing to stop you putting the std double basket that came with the R58 in the bottomless though ( apologies if you already done this)
> 
> John


Yeah I think the one that comes with the bottomless is a triplet. I tried a few shots with that and the coffee was just streaming out really quick, no doubt due to under-dosing, so I switched back to the stock double. Once I can pull a decent shot with that I'll give the triple a whirl for bigger drinks perhaps (we have some quite large cappuccino mugs that a standard double gets a bit lost in).


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

It doesn't sound like your routine has changed since getting a bottomless portafilter so your extractions will have always been like this assuming you've used the same beans/roast level before; the bottomless doesn't change your extraction in any way. Light roasts are harder to get a good extraction from than dark roasts because of grind consistency and single dosing will not help that, the grinder needs a weight on the beans to be at its most consistent (unless you consider being consistently inconsistent a consistency).

Having had a chance to view the pictures I can see your distribution is off in the basket and your 'leveling' afterwards appears to have been done by moving your finger across the top of the basket creating little waves (almost level). While getting this method right might make it look like you've achieved an even distribution it doesn't change the density of the coffee across the rest of the basket, to do that you need to stir with a needle or something similar as has been suggested. Other methods exist such as simply tamping with nutation, tapping before tamping, or tamping slowly on an even mound which in my experience works best with a convex tamper. There are even various methods of tapping http://www.baristahustle.com/how-to-distribute-by-tapping/


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## MichaelBurgess (Feb 22, 2016)

Rob1 said:


> It doesn't sound like your routine has changed since getting a bottomless portafilter so your extractions will have always been like this assuming you've used the same beans/roast level before; the bottomless doesn't change your extraction in any way. Light roasts are harder to get a good extraction from than dark roasts because of grind consistency and single dosing will not help that, the grinder needs a weight on the beans to be at its most consistent (unless you consider being consistently inconsistent a consistency). Having had a chance to view the pictures I can see your distribution is off in the basket and your 'leveling' afterwards appears to have been done by moving your finger across the top of the basket creating little waves (almost level). While getting this method right might make it look like you've achieved an even distribution it doesn't change the density of the coffee across the rest of the basket, to do that you need to stir with a needle or something similar as has been suggested. Other methods exist such as simply tamping with nutation, tapping before tamping, or tamping slowly on an even mound which in my experience works best with a convex tamper. There are even various methods of tapping http://www.baristahustle.com/how-to-distribute-by-tapping/


Hi Rob - thanks for the reply.I'd agree that my distribution isn't good. I haven't had chance to try WDT yet as I need to get something to put over the portafilter; I'm going to give that a shot this weekend.This morning for my commute coffee, I made a real effort to distribute the grounds better during dosing by moving the basket around. I dropped the dose a fraction too. Whilst this didn't remove the channelling, it definitely improved the situation. My machine wasn't quite as messy afterwards and neither was the counter top, so I have something to play with there.I'm also going to get a video together as has been requested by one of the other people who replied yesterday.Interesting point RE needing weight on the beans for consistency. I never keep my beans in the hopper, so there's only ever the current espresso's worth of beans in there. I typically let the beans go underneath the black bean stopper and close it when grinding.I'll check out the tapping link later too - thanks.


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## Khashy (Mar 10, 2015)

*"unless you consider being consistently inconsistent a consistency"*

Quote of the day.

Actually, quote of the week....


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Oh my days. That link changed my life! I've always wondered why distributing before tampjng would make any difference, after all you are about to squash it all with a big metal thing.

Read the article in the middle of the night, this morning my toddler was helping "coffee! Coffee!" Sat on the counter so I had slightly more time, and what a huge difference it's made to the result, with almost zero extra effort! Witch craft.


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Yeah I agree - that did seem to help - followed up by a nutating and a polishing tamp, the whole thing seemed to come together quicker than usual, and the pour did seem pretty even (and tasted nice too!)

I just need something a bit thinner to stir with, as the only thing that came to hand was a skewer... Seems to be pretty difficult to get a dissecting needle online!

Oh, and your toddler helps out with coffee too? Mine pulls up her step so that she can inspect every pour (naked pf) and demands to smell the coffee, 'cos she likes it.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

UbiquitousPhoton said:


> Oh, and your toddler helps out with coffee too? Mine pulls up her step so that she can inspect every pour (naked pf) and demands to smell the coffee, 'cos she likes it.


Hes almost two so "helps " with everything! Found a bean in my milk this morning....


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## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

2 3/4 so she has a step which she is supposed to use for washing her hands, but which instead gets grabbed so that she can see what is going on on the kitchen surfaces. Coffee is of particular interest, and she has already requested that she be made one too, which was politely declined... anywho... (end thread derail







)


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