# Making Upgradeitus Financially Sound



## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Hi all,

I've yet to buy my first machine, and as usual, my budget seems to grow daily. However, I am growing a bit frustrated at a few things. I'll explain, and hopefully you can give me some advice.

Enter "Me", a newbie who has the privilege to throw some money away, YET, he knows himself. Just like in cycling (his other hobby), (1) he suffers from upgradeitus, and (2) he thoroughly dislikes wasting money. Can you already see the huge contradiction?

- UK MSRP / street prices on new machines seem fairly higher than EU prices, and this seem to apply to many brands who adopted a GBP=EUR pricing (and sometimes, GBP > EUR, which is a bit weird). "Me" finds buying from UK acceptable only if the MSRP is "honest" and aligned with the equivalent in Mainland Europe - it's a matter of principle, he doesn't like paying more just for the sake of it.

- UK second-hand prices (eg eBay or here) are out of hand due to pandemic and all that. "Me" is seeing 15yo Gaggias with no PID going for £200-£250 (which is pretty much EU street price for new units, albeit it can be argued that the new ones aren't as good etc). "Me" has the utmost respect for people who refurbish and sell these units, but he finds it hard to justify buying a very old machine for a pandemic-inflated price, considering that these machines were selling for far less some time ago - he feels like he's buying into a bubble. And he doesn't want to be stung if and when he resells the machine, in case prices deflate again.

- currently, buying from EU sites is fraught with risk (and sometimes, certainty) of being dry-fecked (pardon my French) with duties, commissions, additional VAT, etc. And we don't know when this will change.

"Me" knows that in this rabbit hole, he wants to be able to make good financial choices. He wants to buy something, and in case he doesn't like it, decides the hobby is not for him, or gets upgradeitis, he won't be too much worse off; a little loss is understandable due to the nature of reselling used equipment. "Me" also respects those who change a machine and grinder every few months and pay little attention to how much money was lost in the process, but that's not how he likes it. He's happy to "buy once, cry once". But he's a Scrooge - he doesn't want to cry for the second time when he sells the equipment for a tiny fraction of the price he paid.

In this situation, is there a brand that has still decent and not inflated MSRP's compared to 1-2 years ago, or that is selling at normal (ie not pandemic-inflated) prices in the second hand market.. Is there a machine type (eg single boiler, dual boiler, HX..) that will hold its value better? Is it possible to buy something today, either used or new, and being able to sell it later (be it 6 months, 1 year, or 5 years) once all of this pandemic craze is more or less behind us, without a huge financial loss due to the fact that he purchased at the worst time possible with prices up the roof?

Apologies for this very weird thread. It's just a tad frustrating. And it's a first world problem to have, I'm fully aware.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Wait for the right second hand machine on here, it will come up. Buy the best example of secondhand you can and look after it and if you want to sell you won't lose money, look for desirable machines that hold value, if the prices go down sell it on eBay on a £1 weekend and as the prices on there are inflated you'll cover most if not all of the difference. I'm pretty sure in the last 20 years I've not actually spent more than the assets I have and have made a fair bit on pavonis by keeping an eye on eBay through saved searches.


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## Ando (Jan 11, 2021)

I understand where you're coming from, and am very similar to yourself when it comes to spending money. My take on it is not to worry too much about these slightly inflated prices, it just is what it is.

if you decide to wait for some 'normality' to return to prices you might be waiting a lot longer than initially expected or it may not happen at all.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Other angle as some one whos always had to scrimp and save, if you just look at my posts you will see how ive spent then spent again.

Now in a position that i could buy new.

So from me. If you can afford new machine money then do so, you will save down the line.

Im now on a brand new minima. Dual boiler less than £1200.

This is my long term machine and does everything i will ever need now


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Cuprajake said:


> Other angle as some one whos always had to scrimp and save, if you just look at my posts you will see how ive spent then spent again.
> Now in a position that i could buy new.
> So from me. If you can afford new machine money then do so, you will save down the line.
> Im now on a brand new minima. Dual boiler less than £1200.
> This is my long term machine and does everything i will ever need now


I'm going to remember this post


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

i knew that was coming,

if id stop getting shafted buying used, it wouldnt be an issue lol


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> This is my long term machine and does everything i will ever need now


 How many times have I told myself that? (Check my signature). 🤣🤣🤣😂😂😂


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## B-Roadie (Feb 29, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> Other angle as some one whos always had to scrimp and save, if you just look at my posts you will see how ive spent then spent again.
> 
> Now in a position that i could buy new.
> 
> ...


 This is worthwhile advice.

The Minima is the Ultegra Di2 of the home espresso world I guess you could say. After that, you get diminishing returns in your increased investment. You could win the TDF on Ultegra.

The same can be said for grinders I think. I've just made an upgrade that's illogical on paper but the reality of spending an extra 66% or so for the next model up was too hard to justify for me so I went with another, more up to date, Mignon Specialita.

That's a £1550 or so pairing, new, with warranty. But you still have scope in the accessories to satisfy your upgraditus. Fancy tampers, mats, leveller, WDT tool and the like. You could easily drop £500 outside of the grinder and espresso machine if you really wanted to.


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

I can relate to this @Baffo. A few days ago I was set on getting a "cheap" used gaggia off eBay, but seeing machines that are 10+ years old listed as "used but still works" potentially having had zero maintenance, going for £150+ and rebuilt, serviced machines going for £250+ makes me think I'm probably better holding off until I can get a shiny new machine with a warranty. Anywhere from a lelit anna (probably out of the running honestly) to a Rancillio Silvia (maybe the current favorite due to it's proven track record and steaming ability despite being single boiler) to something way over budget like a MaraX or Elizabeth that should make milk based drinks more effortlessly.

I'm also pretty set on a niche zero after deciding that my previous budget friendly option of a hand grinder might be too much effort for a lazy so and so like me.

Honestly my mind has rarely stopped swirling with the various options.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

KTD said:


> Wait for the right second hand machine on here, it will come up. Buy the best example of secondhand you can and look after it and if you want to sell you won't lose money, look for desirable machines that hold value, if the prices go down sell it on eBay on a £1 weekend and as the prices on there are inflated you'll cover most if not all of the difference. I'm pretty sure in the last 20 years I've not actually spent more than the assets I have and have made a fair bit on pavonis by keeping an eye on eBay through saved searches.


 Supposedly yes something will pop up - I guess I'm a bit impatient as I don't have any machine yet (other than a cheap one that can't handle espresso). I feel like if and when it would pop up, then everybody and their grandma will be on it though!



Ando said:


> I understand where you're coming from, and am very similar to yourself when it comes to spending money. My take on it is not to worry too much about these slightly inflated prices, it just is what it is.
> 
> if you decide to wait for some 'normality' to return to prices you might be waiting a lot longer than initially expected or it may not happen at all.


 Yes you're right. I would still like to not waste unnecessary money though - it's a bit unnerving seeing say a GCP going for £425 on UK sites, and then seeing it for around 300-350€, which is pretty much what one would pay for a refurb unit on eBay. And not being able to purchase from EU sites due to additional (and silly) fees and duties.



Cuprajake said:


> Other angle as some one whos always had to scrimp and save, if you just look at my posts you will see how ive spent then spent again.
> 
> Now in a position that i could buy new.
> 
> ...


 I mean yes, to be honest I thought I would buy used, but again with the utmost respect for people who refurbish these, it's frankly unacceptable *for me* to be paying £200-£250 for a machine that's a dozen or more years old. Also cause I am totally clueless about how to fix things.



B-Roadie said:


> This is worthwhile advice.
> 
> The Minima is the Ultegra Di2 of the home espresso world I guess you could say. After that, you get diminishing returns in your increased investment. You could win the TDF on Ultegra.
> 
> ...


 Ha, the groupset analogy had me smile, and Ultegra Di2 is what I have and love. To be honest I'm not sure I'd need a dual boiler, but is there something that is good value in all the right places (let's say a 105 - Di2 mix!), say, PID and acceptable pressure, that is a reliable piece of machinery and cheap to service/fix? Seems like such a "basic" machine is still a red herring.



EvilLewis said:


> I can relate to this @Baffo. A few days ago I was set on getting a "cheap" used gaggia off eBay, but seeing machines that are 10+ years old listed as "used but still works" potentially having had zero maintenance, going for £150+ and rebuilt, serviced machines going for £250+ makes me think I'm probably better holding off until I can get a shiny new machine with a warranty. Anywhere from a lelit anna (probably out of the running honestly) to a Rancillio Silvia (maybe the current favorite due to it's proven track record and steaming ability despite being single boiler) to something way over budget like a MaraX or Elizabeth that should make milk based drinks more effortlessly.
> 
> I'm also pretty set on a niche zero after deciding that my previous budget friendly option of a hand grinder might be too much effort for a lazy so and so like me.
> 
> Honestly my mind has rarely stopped swirling with the various options.


 Yeah I think we are going through similar stuff. I'm just thinking if it's wiser / cheaper to buy a GCP and mod it, get a Silvia and mod it, or close my eyes and getting a Lelit that would come with a PID and adjustable pressure. Or is there something else perhaps, something under the £1k mark.


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## B-Roadie (Feb 29, 2016)

Trouble is, many modern HX machines are also made to look very pretty vs 10 years or so ago. Those aesthetics cost money which closes the gap to a DB machine.

The Minima is by no means an unattractive machine, far from it, but it's not styled to appeal to the masses in the same way a Rocket Appartamento is yet it's not much more money. Has a PID, shot timer, dual boilers, some interesting unique e61 features and is not significantly bigger in footprint.

I ended up going for a DB after researching for months. I now by chance have a HX machine as well. It's a very nice machine and makes nice coffee but I am glad I didn't bother with a HX.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Baffo said:


> Apologies for this very weird thread. It's just a tad frustrating. And it's a first world problem to have, I'm fully aware.


 While I can totally relate to your concerns, I think your focus is in the wrong place. If I were you, I would start by narrowing it down to the machine/s you want, then look for the best deal and get it without overthinking about what it would cost if you lived in a different place or if the world was different - things you can't (easily) change.

A coffee machine's price is just a part of what you will spend on this hobby, and it's a part that might (hopefully) stay with you for a long time. (in a recent thread here many people said they spend an average of £30-£40-£50 a month on beans! I spend considerably less, but it still adds up, and there are other expenses as well).

If you do your homework and buy something that is highly regarded, then hopefully you will hold on to it. And if not - you will not lose much if you look after the machine (as the base price for your sale would be the UK price, not what it costs elsewhere). I had a machine for over 20 years, then replaced it with a machine I only held for 9 months. I lost a small sum, but I can consider it as 'tuition fee' - I learned something in the process. Now I have a new machine which I hope will again keep me happy for a long time.

So if I were you, I would focus on choosing a machine that appeals to you. You will save the most money if you buy once, but even if you don't - good coffee gear that is looked after hold it's value quite well.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Damn you guys, stop making all of this sense, gosh darn it. I had a budget of £400 for grinder and machine two weeks back and now I'm thinking of going around £800-1100 for the machine.

I need a reputable retailer to scan what's available - if I'm buying new and spending so much money, then I need some hand-holding. What websites I can look at, BB and?


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## Stu Beck (May 31, 2020)

You'll get there mate 😉

Black Cat sell machines but not lots of options right now... https://www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk/collections/domestic-coffee-machines

Ps - David from @BlackCatCoffee is super helpful and I'm sure would help advise...


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## Al Grandé (Nov 26, 2020)

Hi @Baffo

I was, where you are now, I joined in November, with a similar budget as you..After all the advice i ordered a niche, delivery March. Been looking at used Gaggia's on ebay, when a second hand machine came up for sale from a forum member, still with 15 months warranty. It was like see a Trek Mondane SLR at such a great price, had to buy it....

I was going to buy a bike at the end of season last year, but they didn't have my size..so used some of that budget.

Good luck with the decisions 👍


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

B-Roadie said:


> ...You *could* win the TDF on *Ultegra*...


 ...and a "jiffy-bag" :classic_wink: ....although Dura-Ace *may* just give you the edge :exit: ....loved the "DI2-105 mix" analogy to "coffee-kit/gear"...brilliant.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

I woke up all the more confused.

Yesterday I had a look at the Mara X, and to be honest I was a bit intimidated with it as a beginner machine. Both in using it and maintaining it, compared to a more basic single boiler.

For somebody who would pull at most 2 shots in sequence (and then only occasionally steam) and if the machine need a minute, it hardly seems a problem as I don't see myself steaming every day. I don't see myself ever needing a dual boiler, or making more than 2 coffees at once. Which of the below would you buy, and why?

Starting from cheapest to most expensive, there's many options.

A new GCP + PID + OPV. Downside would be arguably voiding the warranty. Probably ca. £600 all in.

A Silvia + PID + OPV. As above. Probably £750 all in.

Bezzera Unica PID. Here the advantage would be the the integrated PID - I'm not quite sure whether it's worth the price splurge over the two machines above. £950 ish.

Lelit Mara X. I have expressed my doubts above, it seems a bit too much of a machine for me. And in general I'm not a fan of the lesser temp stability compared to a PID. It is however the best looking in my eyes, but is it worth going for the pretty machine who might be a high maintenance hassle? Around £1000.

There might be some other good value machines that I've missed. Am I buying something that I need the more I scroll down the list?

Help please!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Personally id still take the minima over the marax

Its a solenoid e61 so theres no greasing to do

You turn the steam boiler off when not in use also.

So it has a dual pid set up

Dont be intimidated by any of the machines

They all have a portafilter and a way you turn it on to make water flow, be that a lever, a swith or a massive handle.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Personally id still take the minima over the marax
> 
> Its a solenoid e61 so theres no greasing to do
> 
> ...


 Well if you can convince @BlackCatCoffee to sell it to me for £1000 then we have a deal!

Sure, maybe in a couple weeks my budget will have risen to £1500, but today it's sitting at a very maximum of £1000 going at £50 daily increases!

In all seriousness, do I really need that machine, or do you? I definitely drink daily but not really as much as you guys, and have hardly any visitors who drink coffee.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

For me, and i went through this upgrade path,

As soon as you try to make more than a couple drinks and your waiting for a single boiler to get ready you'll understand.

Partly for me, i wanted new as ive never been able to afford new, and this time i could.

It was also to future proof, as once covid goes we will get friends and family round and i can make multiple brews, in quick succession.

If were talking bang for buck and you're hovering around a grand then at £1186 del on a pallet the minima offers just that.

On terms of a machine its just so simple to use. I debated the Elizabeth and it was close,.

After having a gaggia for a short time id never go back to any machine where your doing a magical dance to get temps right.

A pid is a must in my eyes, the e61 hx with a group thermometer is a close second but you will see how theu swing,. Mine would idle at 93, ot would flush up to 96 then pull a shot 94 to 92. Decent swings.

If you want an e61 machine, then factor in buying

A set of non marking adjustable spanners

A tube of 111 grease

A possible service kit down the line,

Theres some cracking vids in YouTube on how to do it.


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## Ando (Jan 11, 2021)

Lelit Grace might be worth a look as an alternative to fully modding a Gaggia Classic.

Its been talked about somewhere in these forums, just search for it.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Hi @Baffo give us about a week and we will have quite a few more options for you!

David


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Ando said:


> Lelit Grace might be worth a look as an alternative to fully modding a Gaggia Classic.
> 
> Its been talked about somewhere in these forums, just search for it.


 Now that's an ugly machine! Did Lelit just make it so that it would make the gorgeous Bianca and Mara look better?

Seriously though, thanks. I will look into this. It's seemingly well priced (but haven't read the specs yet).


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Hi @Baffo give us about a week and we will have quite a few more options for you!
> 
> David


 David you evil! You can't leave me hanging like that. Before I get too excited, will it be something that ticks the boxes (features and price) I've lined out above? Ps. even with my current crappy machine, I am loving the Finca El Ingenio!


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Make sure you love the way it looks, the two most sensible buys at the moment are two of the least desirable machines looks wise. Will affect how you feel about it long term and it's resale value.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah but you could say that about anything, each to their own and all


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

The reason you can say that about anything is because it's true...


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> For me, and i went through this upgrade path,
> 
> As soon as you try to make more than a couple drinks and your waiting for a single boiler to get ready you'll understand.
> 
> ...


 I have to confess I've read that the e61 group is good to have, but haven't read why. I did check how to do maintenance on it whilst investigating the Mara X, but I don't know whether maintenance is easier/trickier than other groups.

I totally understand where you're coming from and your frustrations with single boilers. I can however safely say that it would virtually never happen to me that I'd need to pull many shots in a row (and if it happens it's because I'm dialling in, so no steaming required), as both my Mrs and I are expats so no family visits here and most of our friends don't drink coffee. Sure, things might change in the future, but definitely the "family visit, need to pull 4 cappuccinos ASAP" doesn't apply to me, even after covid ends.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

One or two drinks and off= pavoni europiccola. Cheap, quick to warm up, looks great, easy to fix


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Baffo

E61 is good as its a massive lump of metal so its better for stability.

Interms of maintenance on it there all near the same, an hx machine with pid would be ideal for you.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

😀

We have coming in from Bezzera -

Hobby in stainless or black - SBDU 58mm portafilter, 3 way solenoid valve. The same class as a Classic Pro

Crema - Hx - wood accents, contrasting painted side panels, heated low maintenance BZ group, toggle steam and water controls

Unica PID - SBDU PID control, E61 group

BZ16 - Hx - Large boiler, twisty steam and water controls. Heated BZ group.

Magica PID - Hx PID control, E61 group, toggle steam and water controls.

Strega - Lever group with active heating, hybrid pump design.

To follow shortly we will have more Minimas if you did decide to push the budget.

For now the Hobby, Unica and Crema will be in range!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Just my two pence worth....you do not need justification to upgrade. If you can afford it, then do it. Once you have upgraded many times then you will be able to form an opinion. Back in the day, I used to buy and sell gear but I only bought if it was at the right price. I could then keep it a couple months and move it on again. If I lost a bit, I called it rent.....if I made a bit, then good. Coffee for many is a hobby so stop worrying about costs of upgrades! I retired recently, and made a decision I would stop changing my kit. After 12 months of thinking about it combined with retiring and lockdown meaning I no longer had regular visitors I sold my Mythos Clima Pro and settled on a Niche, which I have owned since they came out. I could have any of those grinders in Hoffs video. Interesting he did not do a retention test including the niche. That must have been a conscious decision since he did include it in the taste test. For some out there, you will be able to taste the difference between a shot pulled at 92.7 and 92.8.....you will taste the difference between 17.42 grams in and 17.50 grams in.....if you can, then good luck!


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> @Baffo
> 
> E61 is good as its a massive lump of metal so its better for stability.
> 
> Interms of maintenance on it there all near the same, an hx machine with pid would be ideal for you.


 I thought that HX machines did not have PID as they are inherently more stable (yet not as stable as a boiler + PID)?



KTD said:


> One or two drinks and off= pavoni europiccola. Cheap, quick to warm up, looks great, easy to fix


 I see what you mean. However I'm not sure I'm sold. I might be wrong, but you get a steep learning curve (novice, never done espresso here), temp stability won't be right up there, and pressure profiling is not necessarily something I can say I am interested in at this stage. And I would guess steaming isn't that great either? It sounds like a great tool for trying to nail a god-level cup of espresso if in the right hands, but I feel I'd be trying to run before learning how to walk..



dfk41 said:


> Just my two pence worth....you do not need justification to upgrade. If you can afford it, then do it. Once you have upgraded many times then you will be able to form an opinion. Back in the day, I used to buy and sell gear but I only bought if it was at the right price. I could then keep it a couple months and move it on again. If I lost a bit, I called it rent.....if I made a bit, then good. Coffee for many is a hobby so stop worrying about costs of upgrades! I retired recently, and made a decision I would stop changing my kit. After 12 months of thinking about it combined with retiring and lockdown meaning I no longer had regular visitors I sold my Mythos Clima Pro and settled on a Niche, which I have owned since they came out. I could have any of those grinders in Hoffs video. Interesting he did not do a retention test including the niche. That must have been a conscious decision since he did include it in the taste test. For some out there, you will be able to taste the difference between a shot pulled at 92.7 and 92.8.....you will taste the difference between 17.42 grams in and 17.50 grams in.....if you can, then good luck!


 I understand what you mean. And yes, probably I'm reading too much into this. However, I know myself, and for example I own a bicycle that cost me some 5k and more, which I love, but it was totally unnecessary for what my needs are, I could've gotten something that was virtually the same for half the price. And yes, we only live once, but the fact that I could technically afford a Slayer doesn't mean that I should purchase one, not at least until I've tried this hobby first!

I understand where you're coming from on the 92.7c vs 92.8 and 17.42gr vs 17.50.. And for me, as a novice, the biggest challenge has been to understand whether a line can be drawn between elitism (did somebody say JH?) and common sense. I've yet to figure out where this line is, and what machine that suits my need can be find on that line.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Baffo said:


> I have to confess I've read that the e61 group is good to have, but haven't read why. I did check how to do maintenance on it whilst investigating the Mara X, but I don't know whether maintenance is easier/trickier than other groups.


 One point re maintenance and cleaning: All machines need cleaning. The differences in cleaning routines are marginal, and you get used to them whatever machine you have.

They all have little pros and cons, and you might like one over the other, but I wouldn't let that become a deciding factor, certainly not against E-61's, which are still dominant in the market 60 years after they were first introduced for a reason. (just as an example, E-61's need cam lube after backflushing with chemicals, but on the other hand - the screw-less shower screen and gasket come out with a spoon for easiest cleaning, much more convenient than groups with a screw that leave the gasket in. Neither is a reason to get or avoid a machine, imo).


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

But not all e61 are equal as there are cam less solenoid groups now too


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> But not all e61 are equal as there are cam less solenoid groups now too


 Yes, we know you love your new Minima. 😉


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Why i purposely didnt mention the name, i presume theres more than one solenoid group machine?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Yes quite a few. Fracino are big in the solenoid E61 game. I know they do not get a lot of love anymore but they are solid, readable machine.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

@Baffo think of it this way, you could be having this argument with a home made coffee in hand on a cold wet snowy afternoon having spent £400........

but you aren't as you are chasing rainbows.........

unlike most on here I bought a machine in 2012 I still have it I got a grinder in 2013 I still have it

is it the best coffee possible ? No not even close

is it better than the rubbish being sold as coffee locally? Yes it is! Did I have to queue in the snow to get it? No I didn't 🤣

so what's it to be more pondering and procrastinating ? Or getting hands on with a machine and learning a skill?

you won't necessarily make better coffee with a better machine you have the potential to learn too is all.......

being a barista is a skill, that's why Starbucks have vending machines.....


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

It's a tricky situation as you don't have any hands on experience yet, so you are theorising about a "hobby" you may not stick to, yet you are one who suffers from upgradeitus and will likely not be happy (for too long) with some of the cheaper options.

I bought a Gaggia Classic Pro (new and unmodded) and I was really not keen on its appearance or finish. Steam power very weak and temp surfing a pain (resolved with mods). Not for me.

A modded Silvia may be a good option for you as you don't intend steam much (switching between brewing and steaming). If you do steam it is powerful.

I personally like to buy new and upgraded from a Sage Barista Pro to an ACS Minima. The Sage felt like a "my first espresso machine" toy in comparison. The Minima is a tank and I love the solenoid E61 - you can tell you're working with a very temp stable machine and bonus low maintenance. Maybe overkill for you with a big steam boiler which hold a lot of water, but it does future proof you if you intend to use it long term.

I initially considered a MaraX but in my opinion you get a lot more machine for little more money (relatively) with the Minima. Lelit Elizabeth also worthy of consideration in this price range, or even a Profitec 300 if you want that solid build!


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

I'm still in the position of figuting out if I'll be able to get away with a single boiler machine if I'll be making a couple of milk drinksa couple of times a day (probably a Silvia as I know that's meant to be the king of single boiler steaming) or if I'll be better off doubling my budget (and possible the ammount of required counter space) for something like a MaraX, Elizabeth, or minima.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Hx are good because theres no wait for steam,

You'd have to have a nosey to see how long you wait for steam on a single boiler.

Id imagine its not that long and as long as you dont need your drink in a millisecond sure it will be fine haha


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Hx are good because theres no wait for steam,
> 
> You'd have to have a nosey to see how long you wait for steam on a single boiler.
> 
> Id imagine its not that long and as long as you dont need your drink in a millisecond sure it will be fine haha


 I've had a poke around online and I can't seem to find any real info on wait time between brew and steam mode on single boilers beyond a couple of examples from users saying less than a couple of minutes. Also I know it's gonna vary between machines.

It's when manufactures/ retailers describe single boilers as suitable for "the occasional milk drink" that I start feeling I should double my budget haha


----------



## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Yeah,

I get it. Think you have to imagine the work flow i suppose

Id say as a middle point an hx is a good compromise


----------



## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

EvilLewis said:


> I've had a poke around online and I can't seem to find any real info on wait time between brew and steam mode on single boilers beyond a couple of examples from users saying less than a couple of minutes. Also I know it's gonna vary between machines.
> 
> It's when manufactures/ retailers describe single boilers as suitable for "the occasional milk drink" that I start feeling I should double my budget haha


 Have you tried searching on YT for something like "Silvia workflow"? There might be something. To be honest whenever I see people itching for a dual boiler, it's mostly people who are BOTH experienced users AND tend to have guests. And I am neither..

On related news, I've noticed that the Lelit PL41PLUST, whilst somewhat ugly (to me), it's a decently priced machine with PID, and 58mm PF (unlike cheaper Lelits). That's also a contender..

I need to ask David about the Unica, which is a tad more expensive but I really like the looks of. Not sure what people think of the build quality of the Bezzera's.


----------



## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah,
> 
> I get it. Think you have to imagine the work flow i suppose
> 
> Id say as a middle point an hx is a good compromise


 Yeah, and the MaraX seems great. Slightly concerned by the issues a few people have had with faulty temp sensors etc, and having to remove/lube a cam every week (I'm lazy haha).

I really like the look of the minima, but it's kinda huge and I have limited counter space, although this could be fixed with creative use of a small standalone kitchen trolley/island and relocation of the microwave haha


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Baffo said:


> Have you tried searching on YT for something like "Silvia workflow"? There might be something. To be honest whenever I see people itching for a dual boiler, it's mostly people who are BOTH experienced users AND tend to have guests. And I am neither..
> 
> On related news, I've noticed that the Lelit PL41PLUST, whilst somewhat ugly (to me), it's a decently priced machine with PID, and 58mm PF (unlike cheaper Lelits). That's also a contender..
> 
> I need to ask David about the Unica, which is a tad more expensive but I really like the looks of. Not sure what people think of the build quality of the Bezzera's.


 That's a good idea abour searching "workflow". Why didn't I think of that haha


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Yeah,
> 
> I get it. Think you have to imagine the work flow i suppose
> 
> Id say as a middle point an hx is a good compromise


 But is it worth it to the average guy shopping around the £1k mark to potentially compromise on espresso consistency (temperature will be surely somewhat more volatile on an HX than a single boiler + PID) to gain the ability to froth faster?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Umm.

I know im biased but the minima can be run with a single boiler turned on or both boilers.

Infact its recommend to only turn the steam boiler on when in use.

Its a togh choice, i know ive been there. I researched for months, i was all set for the Elizabeth. Then i switched and went minima


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Umm.
> 
> I know im biased but the minima can be run with a single boiler turned on or both boilers.
> 
> ...


 See other than footprint, I think o prefer the minima over the Elizabeth in almost all aspects. Better looking, less complex. Looks properly beefy and almost industrial, vs the more kitchen appliance looks of the Elizabeth. I'd also argue that not having software to fiddle with is a good thing.


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## Ando (Jan 11, 2021)

Analysis paralysis has fully set in here, @Baffo, from the looks of things 🤣. Go with whatever your gut feeling is and get it ordered! Then stop researching / looking at other folks set ups until you are up and running. This purchase is small potatoes compared to a £5k bike!!


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Umm.
> 
> I know im biased but the minima can be run with a single boiler turned on or both boilers.
> 
> ...


 For me the problem is that the shortlist grows larger instead of shorter! I think I'm looking at decent-good SB machines so at least there's that, I've narrowed the category down, removing very basic SB (eg GCP) and probably HX machines.

I really like the looks of the ECM Classika as well, which I hadn't considered. If I got the Minima, I'd probably be the newbiest newbie to ever get one, but frankly I might consider it later on.. From what I seem to understand from the friendly banter directed at you, the Minima was not your first machine either so probably you get where I'm coming from.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Are you stuck for space. ?

Its not massive

15" tall, 10.5" wide, 17" deep


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@EvilLewis i totally get you on the looks Elizabeth vs minima, both cracking machines and id of been happy with either, but the magpie in me just wanted the bling 😂


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@Baffo

Nope i went :

gaggia clasic lasted a week. Horrid machine imo

Sage duo temp pro very good actually, cost 249 new on sale

Used hx machine would of kept that for a long wile tbf had i not come into some money

Then the minima,

if your even remotely thinking of something better down then line, then do it first if you can afford to. Will save massively down the line


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> @Baffo
> 
> Nope i went :
> 
> ...


 Yeah well I might be thinking of something better, but considering that the first itch to be scratched will be the Niche once I can't be bothered with the JX Pro anymore (let's face it, that's going to happen soon), the machine will definitely not happen until I'm 100% sure I like the hobby *that* much.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I had a jx pro soon got rid.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> I had a jx pro soon got rid.


 Are you me from the future? Can you give me some winning lottery numbers?


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Oh I can't afford it, but thanks to my impatience, my credit card, and a willingness to be constantly in debt, not being able to afford stuff rarely stops me from getting stuff haha.

I considered a JX pro but I know I'll get fed up with hand grinding so I'm just gonna get a niche and hopefully sell my encore.

Maybe I need to apply the same logic to buying a machine.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Anyway, as far as I can see it now (but the shortlist increases daily), from cheapest to most expensive (ish)

- Lelit PL41PLUST

- Silvia (+Mods)

- Bezzera Unica PID

- ECM Classika II PID

Is there a clear loser in this? Just so that I can somewhat reduce the hours of YT watching time during work hours to learn the ins and outs of each machine. I can't be the only one doing this. Right?


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Baffo said:


> Anyway, as far as I can see it now (but the shortlist increases daily), from cheapest to most expensive (ish)
> 
> - Lelit PL41PLUST
> 
> ...


 Personally I kinda find the endless "research" is a big part of the fun of buying a new toy, almost to the point where once you've settled and bought something, it leaves a hole in your life haha


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

EvilLewis said:


> Personally I kinda find the endless "research" is a big part of the fun of buying a new toy, almost to the point where once you've settled and bought something, it leaves a hole in your life haha


 Oh yeah me too, I research everything for ages and I love it. The Mrs, less so - it entails a lot of screen time for me, and she's not quite as fussed about the details.


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Baffo said:


> Oh yeah me too, I research everything for ages and I love it. The Mrs, less so - it entails a lot of screen time for me, and she's not quite as fussed about the details.


 Oh god our other halves could probably relate so much to this haha


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## B-Roadie (Feb 29, 2016)

Rumpelstiltskin said:


> ...and a "jiffy-bag" :classic_wink: ....although Dura-Ace *may* just give you the edge :exit: ....loved the "DI2-105 mix" analogy to "coffee-kit/gear"...brilliant.


 Unlikely to be honest. Especially while the 6.8kg minimum bike weight rule remains unchanged. It's a joke.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

i dunno, my far less experienced dissenting opinion (and a bit of an essay):

from what i can gather you've never made a coffee in your life, and you're asking advice from people who have by and large bought into this hobby, and most have been through multiple machines and grinders over a period of several years. the things that they look for and require in a machine may be things that you will never require of a machine - you may not ever develop the desire (or the palate, or the skill) to be able to tell the difference between a basic 'decent' espresso machine, and a far more capable one.

originally you were budgeting £400 all in, and you were worried but about 'losing money' if you decide it's not for you, or you get further upgraditis. now you are talking about spending £1000+ on the machine alone - imo this makes no sense, lots of people upgrade from £1000 machines as well! they're just the entry-level into the next level again. you are putting even more cash into it, and the second hand market for a more expensive machines is inherently more limited than a cheaper machine, so you will probably lose more moving it on anyway.

my advice, buy something that is easy to learn on, and convenient to use, and can produce a decent drink.

if going brand new, despite people's valid criticisms of their servicability (in this country at least) i think the consensus is the entry-level Sage's are pretty hard to beat at the £250-400 mark. grinder-wise one of the entry-level eureka's is probably the best bet (below that i think the grinder really could be the limiting factor quite quickly). funnily enough the niche is probably a good 'low-risk' buy at £500 as they are in limited supply (and will likely continue to be) and for quite a lot of people might be all the grinder they'll ever need (me included). as far as 'pandemic' pricing goes, afaik the MSRP on most of these machines is exactly the same as it was a year or even 18 months ago. retailers were heavily discounting some of them for whatever reason, it's just that now they no longer are, but the MSRP hasn't changed. if you're desperate to buy now then you pay the prices as they are, if you're worried about value then wait.

if you're more concerned about not losing money, probably a refurb'd and PID'd GC from one of the reputable forum members, and a second-hand commercial will be a very good starting kit for you to learn your craft on, and you will probably lose almost no money when you move either of them on.

fwiw, i'm about a year into this journey, i went to a Niche from a Baratza Encore pretty quickly (about 7-8 months in, but could really have done it at about the 3 month mark to be honest), and started with a Sage Bambino which is still more capable than i am. i like the sound of a DB machine but if i'm honest with myself, i probably wouldn't be able to tell the difference yet.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

facboy said:


> i dunno, my far less experienced dissenting opinion (and a bit of an essay):
> 
> from what i can gather you've never made a coffee in your life, and you're asking advice from people who have by and large bought into this hobby, and most have been through multiple machines and grinders over a period of several years. the things that they look for and require in a machine may be things that you will never require of a machine - you may not ever develop the desire (or the palate, or the skill) to be able to tell the difference between a basic 'decent' espresso machine, and a far more capable one.
> 
> ...


 Personally I like the idea of starting with a basic machine and upgrading over time after learning the basics and feeling like the upgrade is justified and deserved.

In reality cheaper machines have to compromise and in doing so actually make the process of making coffee (or learning to) more difficult not less. A DB machine and decent Eureka/Niche grinder allow the user to focus more on the variables they have control of and not on making the machine work for them.

Having owned the Sage Barista Pro (same thermojet system as the Bambino), I believe you would notice a difference when compared to a DB machine and decent grinder. The sage thermojet system is far too dependent on and sensitive to flow rate to achieve the right temperature to make good espresso. This along with the narrower and deeper basket make for a very different experience compare to a DB E61 machine for example.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

facboy said:


> i dunno, my far less experienced dissenting opinion (and a bit of an essay):
> 
> from what i can gather you've never made a coffee in your life, and you're asking advice from people who have by and large bought into this hobby, and most have been through multiple machines and grinders over a period of several years. the things that they look for and require in a machine may be things that you will never require of a machine - you may not ever develop the desire (or the palate, or the skill) to be able to tell the difference between a basic 'decent' espresso machine, and a far more capable one.
> 
> ...


 I appreciate where you're coming from.

I am grateful for all the advice received, and I appreciate it might look weird that I'm even considering machines around 1k.

However I don't really know any better, and there's been plenty of conflicting suggestions, from "start with the cheapest" to "buy once cry once", from "buy second hand" to "buy new", from "get a manual machine" to "get a dual boiler machine".

As I don't know any better, I'm trying to give credit and evaluate all suggestions and trying to understand whether they can work for me or not. As an example while I won't go for dual boiler most likely, I'm still grateful for @Cuprajake's suggestions for DB machines and the Minima as they forced me to think about it. Same goes for the user who suggested the La Pavoni, whom I'm too lazy to tag from the phone (sorry!). I had to go on YT and look at the workflow and reviews before I could decline the suggestion!

The only advice I'm perhaps a bit not open minded to is to buy second hand. On second hand items, especially Gaggia, I find a gap between what I'm prepared to pay and what I think is fair, and what the market is asking. My vision of fairness is surely that of a newbie, but it is what it is.

Will I spend 1k on the machine? Will I buy a Bambino? Who knows. One thing is for sure, I created this topic to get clarity of mind, and whilst it's an erratic process, it's slowly bringing me somewhere.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

HVL87 said:


> Having owned the Sage Barista Pro (same thermojet system as the Bambino), I believe you would notice a difference when compared to a DB machine and decent grinder. The sage thermojet system is far too dependent on and sensitive to flow rate to achieve the right temperature to make good espresso. This along with the narrower and deeper basket make for a very different experience compare to a DB E61 machine for example.


 perhaps this makes a pid'd GC a better bet then for consistency?



Baffo said:


> The only advice I'm perhaps a bit not open minded to is to buy second hand. On second hand items, especially Gaggia, I find a gap between what I'm prepared to pay and what I think is fair, and what the market is asking. My vision of fairness is surely that of a newbie, but it is what it is.


 i can understand this. for me i didn't want the hassle of working out how to install a PID and i was less knowledgable then (and perhaps less trusting). used Gaggia's were going around £190-250 depending on condition, and the Bambino was £230 new, so it was an easier decision financially to buy the 'new' machine. a new GC Pro is £400 i believe? and in some people's opinion not quite as good as the old pre-2015 GCs. the reality is that the old GC's are a very sought-after machine, and while still in plentiful supply, they hold their value well. this is because they are sturdy, reliable, simple and easy to repair. on the downside, that means that perhaps they are more expensive than you expect an 'old' machine to be. on the upside, very little can go wrong and you can expect to sell it for what you paid for it, assuming you buy sensibly.

as such, a GC seems like a good low-risk first machine to me - good to learn on, easy to shift for almost no loss when you do want to upgrade (or decide it's not your thing). perhaps pair with a NZ? lose almost no money on the Niche if you decide to upgrade (which might be unlikely for many years, if at all)? at worst you'll be 'leasing' a good starting setup for a £750-800 'deposit' and peanuts on the 'hire' cost (what you will lose selling it) . btw, this is theory craft on my part, not having owned a GC, but i'm sure somebody could chime in who has.

iirc even in the last few months guys on here have been selling very nice refurbed GCs with pressure gauges fitted for the £250ish mark? nobody is looking to price-gouge on this forum (or if they are, they get called out pretty quickly). maybe keep an eye on the For Sale forum? they do go v quickly though.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

facboy said:


> perhaps this makes a pid'd GC a better bet then for consistency?
> 
> i can understand this. for me i didn't want the hassle of working out how to install a PID and i was less knowledgable then (and perhaps less trusting). used Gaggia's were going around £190-250 depending on condition, and the Bambino was £230 new, so it was an easier decision financially to buy the 'new' machine. a new GC Pro is £400 i believe? and in some people's opinion not quite as good as the old pre-2015 GCs. the reality is that the old GC's are a very sought-after machine, and while still in plentiful supply, they hold their value well. this is because they are sturdy, reliable, simple and easy to repair. on the downside, that means that perhaps they are more expensive than you expect an 'old' machine to be. on the upside, very little can go wrong and you can expect to sell it for what you paid for it, assuming you buy sensibly.
> 
> ...


 Thanks. Definitely not suggesting any price gouging, it's just that as of now, you can get a Gaggia refurbed with OPV only for £250. This would need to be PID'd, bringing the cost around £350 (ish). I would totally be ok with paying this amount if it came refurb'd from the manufacturer, along with some kind of a warranty. Not because I don't trust who refurbs these, rather I don't trust myself.

In case I encountered any, any technical difficulty, even the most simple, I'd be on my own, and I'm not handy at all (and, not being native, I would also struggle understanding simple instructions related to weird & unknown objects such as "gaskets", "solenoid valves", "group heads", "Ulka pumps").

I understand that most of you feel comfortable with the idea of a 15yo device with no warranty. For most people on here who are very handy, if a problem arises this is just a case of "Ok, open it up, diagnose the issue, order replacement if needed, fix efficiently and effectively".

My problem-solving workflow would be more like "Ok, panic - Post on forum - Open machine up, take pictures - Decipher instructions received by asking very stupid questions - Figure out the tools needed, spend a long time trying to figure out where to source them, buy them - Spend endless hours fixing something that a primate could probably fix in a few minutes".

And this is why I admire those who have the capacity and passion to do that. Alas, I don't, and I don't feel comfortable paying a good chunk of money for something that comes with no warranty. Perhaps I will change my mind in a few days, but as of now I see it as a huge risk for myself.

Anyway, I would not wish for this discussion to derail into how to maintain machines, I'm sure that plenty of answers will then follow saying that it's actually not that difficult to fix things on a Gaggia, which I'd then have to dismiss by explaining again that I'm really, really not good at that kind of stuff.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

@Baffo definitely didn't mean to suggest you were suggesting price-gouging here (geez, what an awful sentence composition i've come up with). ppl are 100% price-gouging GCs and the like on ebay.

good points, if you're not mechanically inclined i could see it being daunting, i see why you'd prefer new with warranty. a new GCP is £400 but no pid . there's a bit of a gap in the market (even more so when Sage's and the like were on sale a lot), £300-400 for entry-level, then it seems close to £1000 for anything that is a meaningful improvement.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

@Baffo - reading your comments, it seems you will feel more comfortable getting a new machine with warranty and access to support from a retailer if anything goes wrong.

If you agree, you can either look at an entry level machines, or you can aim higher if you have the money and inclination. You mentioned you got a 5K bike, but could easily get similar results if you spent half of that. I dare say it's the same with any hobby that requires skill and equipment. If you want to start learning to play guitar, you can go out and get the best guitar on the market, but you will not get the benefit before you have the skill, which may take years or never happen.

At entry level (I am not talking about toy appliances that look like coffee machines but are not capable of making espresso, as you are not considering those), you have machines that are not capable of maintaining proper brew temperature and therefore require temp surfing (or installation of a PID). While many people make excellent coffee with these machines, if you can get something that already keeps the right temperature, it will make it easier for you to learn. So if you can afford that, by all means go for a machine that keeps the correct temperature (such as the Lelit you were suggested, or similar).

Anything above that would be an overkill at this stage imo. It doesn't mean you can't get it or it won't be good, but you will be getting more than you really need at this stage. Thinking of your bike, knowing what you know now, would you buy the same expensive bike you have even though it is more than you need? If yes - then by all means, spend a grand or two (or more) on top coffee gear. If not, then I think you can probably learn to make coffee on a cheaper machine.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

if you want simple i know a cracking machine










all jokes a side if youre spending a grand most machine will be brill. some are easier to use than others granted

key things:

good grinder

good basket prep

good tamper

the machine does the rest.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Doram said:


> @Baffo - reading your comments, it seems you will feel more comfortable getting a new machine with warranty and access to support from a retailer if anything goes wrong.
> 
> If you agree, you can either look at an entry level machines, or you can aim higher if you have the money and inclination. You mentioned you got a 5K bike, but could easily get similar results if you spent half of that. I dare say it's the same with any hobby that requires skill and equipment. If you want to start learning to play guitar, you can go out and get the best guitar on the market, but you will not get the benefit before you have the skill, which may take years or never happen.
> 
> ...


 Yes indeed, I think one of the key points I was able to figure out yesterday thanks to everybody's contribution was that a single boiler with PID seems to be the right choice given my current expertise, my needs, my wants, and my budget.

It's just somehow weird that there's really not much in the market between £400 and £800 which would be where I'd associate an entry-level machine with PID and a few compromises (other than the Lelit Glenda PL41PLUST, which pretty much fits the bill - I am only trying to avoid it based on not liking the looks of it at all. Which is perhaps silly and needlessly vain of me.)



Cuprajake said:


> if you want simple i know a cracking machine
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 We do need to know what's your commission paid by ACS, is it a flat fee, is it a volume-based target? ????


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

haha,

just happy with my purchase,

the ecm machines are well built too, like i say you'd be happy with what you buy

my first on the list would be solid temp control, thats made the biggest difference for me, solid temps


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Baffo said:


> Lelit Glenda PL41PLUST, which pretty much fits the bill


 Do you mean you don't like the look of stainless-steel box-like machines (like Rancilio Silvia, Lelit Glenda/Anna/Grace/Elizabeth, Bezzera Hobby etc., which is a standard look driven by functionality and shared by many machines)?

Do you mean you prefer the shiny E61 look? Do you need that as an excuse to go for a machine that costs much more than the entry level required? 🙂 If yes, and if you have the money, maybe just buy what you want and stop looking for excuses to justify it? 😉


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Doram said:


> Do you mean you prefer the shiny E61 look? Do you need that as an excuse to go for a machine that costs much more than the entry level required? ????


 Sometimes you just want and need something...


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

All this talk of solid temps is steering me further away from my initial, more modest ideas of getting a non PID single boiler like the Silvia haha


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

i will naturally,

i suppose if you look at the key things in making good espresso and there after milk drinks

good grinder and temp stability are the two main factors

after that you break down needs and wants, @EvilLewis where abouts in lancs are you?


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> i will naturally,
> 
> i suppose if you look at the key things in making good espresso and there after milk drinks
> 
> ...


 I'm in Morecambe near Lancaster.

I'm in a similar position to @Baffo. I've never used an espresso machine in my life, but I'm pretty nerdy and like "getting into things". I definitely want to be able to make milk based drinks daily as both my wife and I love a nice Cap, flat white or latte. I usually have black coffee first thing so a couple of espressos or Americanos daily would be likely too.

I'm pretty set ona niche as I know my current Encore won't be up to the job for espresso.

The fact that I'm not financially in a position to pull the trigger just yet, and the fact that even if I get one of the next batch of niche zeros, I won't have it until April, just gives me more time to procrastinate haha


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Doram said:


> Do you mean you don't like the look of stainless-steel box-like machines (like Rancilio Silvia, Lelit Glenda/Anna/Grace/Elizabeth, Bezzera Hobby etc., which is a standard look driven by functionality and shared by many machines)?
> 
> Do you mean you prefer the shiny E61 look? Do you need that as an excuse to go for a machine that costs much more than the entry level required? 🙂 If yes, and if you have the money, maybe just buy what you want and stop looking for excuses to justify it? 😉


 I'm not quite sure it's the E61 look necessarily (I don't even know what this means to be honest, if you scroll the topic up a bit you'll see that I found out what an E61 is and why is it good just yesterday or so).

Presuming you mean the protrusion of the group in a shiny fashion, yes I do like that, however that's not really a must have. Say, I find the Silvia slightly nicer due to the black accents, the lack of the red Lelit logo patch.. I'm not even sure it's about how much the machine costs, I even prefer the Gaggia to the Lelit (nicer understated logo, black accents and buttons, shape that is just a tad less square and a less boxy form factor).

It's hard to explain. The Lelit looks (to me) like "an old machine from the 90s" whereas some other machines look like "a classic old machine". Old and Classic are not the same thing in my eyes. To be completely frank, I'm actually more for modern looks (and in fact if I could be gifted the Niche or a £3k commercial grinder, I'd take the former in a heartbeat), and if De Longhi or Sage made decent single boiler machines with stable temp & normal pressure, I would've surely considered them. But if modern looks can't be quite achieved, then a classic look is definitely a close second in my eyes.

Apologies if all of this sounds vain and rather silly. But I do like some nice-looking toys.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Today I've learned a new thing. Which means I'm a better person. Also, an even more undecided one.

I had assumed that an E61 group machine would take some time to heat up, however such beautiful bulk of metal takes quite some time to heat up. I thought we'd be talking 15m, but that's usually what the boiler needs (depending on size), and with the boiler at say 95c, the E61 might be sitting at 70c or so. (yes, I know that you guys know, but I'm writing it for other newbies who might read..)

Which means either one flushes some water (can/should it be reused for the boiler or water tank even though the shower screen might not have been 100.0% clean?) or waits patiently. Or keeps the machine on.

Which means potentially wasting water. And secondly, I had never considered energy consumption of these machines. With such a waiting time, it might make more sense for me to keep them on 7am to 3pm and then turning them off for the day? Is this going to increase my energy bill by £1's, £10's, £100's?

I am learning new things every day, and the more I learn the more I feel like I don't have a clear choice in mind. At least I'm reducing the chances of regretting it!


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Either stick it on a WiFi plug and have it come on at a certain time or let it come up to pressure and then Flush some water through it to speed up the process. You don't need to flush much at all, maybe an espresso cup worth and definitely don't put it back in the water tank once you have


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

If you have coffees at random times of the day then keeping it on all day may be the best solution. In some machines they can be set to go into a standby mode where the steam boiler switches off and keeps the brew boiler at 70 deg or so, not sure how many machines this is a feature on but it is on mine.

I thought the heating up of the E61 group would be a bit of a pain, but it hasn't been an issue at all and in a strange way I actually like the process of starting my coffee routine.

I'm a kinda creature of habit and have a morning coffee around 10:30 - 11:00, so I'll switch the machine on about 10 ish then I switch it off. In the afternoon coffee time is about 3:30 ish , so machine goes on about 3ish.

It's just not an issue really.


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

The more you learn about a geeky hobby, the more you realise it's not as straightforward as you first thought


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Like 10p a day


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Correction 15p


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Ha, thanks guys. Not much of a concern then I guess! It does seem a bit counterintuitive to have a machine on for 40m to make a 30s espresso, but supposedly a few (15??) minutes and a small flush could go a long way.

I now realised that BB doesn't even list the Lelit I was considering (PL41PLUST). I keep opening BB and Blackcatcafe hoping that some magical new machine will appear. Usually this doesn't happen, and my brain fixes it by upping the budget, so I have new machines to look at!

I like to believe that this thread is going to still be here in two months, with me very much the wiser, and undecided.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

You wont be the first, its a big commitment.

Elizabeth warms quick. Low profile but its dual boiler again


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Baffo said:


> I like to believe that this thread is going to still be here in two months, with me very much the wiser, and undecided.


 I hope so haha


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> I now realised that BB doesn't even list the Lelit I was considering (PL41PLUST). I keep opening BB and Blackcatcafe hoping that some magical new machine will appear. Usually this doesn't happen, and my brain fixes it by upping the budget, so I have new machines to look at!


 I used to do exactly the same thing and then took a while deliberating over two machines (Elizabeth vs. Minima). This was after increasing my budget from £450 to £1500 including grinder. It's actually closer to £1700 now to include a powder coated machine and various accessories.

Good luck 😅


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Baffo said:


> Today I've learned a new thing. Which means I'm a better person. Also, an even more undecided one.
> 
> I had assumed that an E61 group machine would take some time to heat up, however such beautiful bulk of metal takes quite some time to heat up. I thought we'd be talking 15m, but that's usually what the boiler needs (depending on size), and with the boiler at say 95c, the E61 might be sitting at 70c or so. (yes, I know that you guys know, but I'm writing it for other newbies who might read..)
> 
> ...


 The BZ group machines are an excellent choice if you want something that heats quickly as they are not saturated groups, they are heated by electrical elements so get up to temp much quicker than an E61.

They have a number of other advantages too if you would like me to bore you with them 😄


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> The BZ group machines are an excellent choice if you want something that heats quickly as they are not saturated groups, they are heated by electrical elements so get up to temp much quicker than an E61.
> 
> They have a number of other advantages too if you would like me to bore you with them 😄


 Thanks David. From what a quick Googling revealed, they seem to feature on Bezzera's HX range. Is there a reason why they don't feature on single/double boiler machines? Or am I missing its presence on some machines..

Anyway, in general I think the nerd in me prefers a PID, I think I got headaches watching some videos from DaveC doing weird temperature stuff on the Mara X..


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

E61 PID etc

https://www.ascaso.com/div-espresso-coffee-machines-grinders/babyT-1.html

and this is smack on budget

not sure it it's a pid tho https://www.ferrari-espresso.com/product/ascaso-dream-one-black-2020-new-with-uk-molded-plug-copy/


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HDAV said:


> E61 PID etc
> 
> https://www.ascaso.com/div-espresso-coffee-machines-grinders/babyT-1.html
> 
> ...


 Maybe I'm not understanding it properly but the Dream One appears to be use a thermothingy with no PID? If so, at £800 it sounds like a very expensive Bambino Plus to me?


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

Baffo said:


> Maybe I'm not understanding it properly but the Dream One appears to be use a thermothingy with no PID? If so, at £800 it sounds like a very expensive Bambino Plus to me?


 *Adjustable Electronic Thermostat for coffee and Steam*

depends what his means and how it works ....


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

There is the pid version shown here best to contact Ferrari directly for pricing https://www.ascaso.com/div-espresso-coffee-machines-grinders/dream-3pid.html


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Baffo said:


> ...I am learning new things every day, and the more I learn the more I feel like I don't have a clear choice in mind. *At least I'm reducing the chances of regretting it!*...


 Nothing wrong with *learning and doing one's homework first*, that way as you said it's reduces the chances of suffering "*buyer's remorse*" later on. Good luck with whatever you decide to purchase :classic_smile:


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HDAV said:


> *Adjustable Electronic Thermostat for coffee and Steam*
> 
> depends what his means and how it works ....


 I've sent an email. To be honest they look way too "fancy & fashionable" to be cheap. Kinda like the Zara of coffee machines (and they're Spanish too). I'm also not convinced on the 60mm PF - I might as well get a Lelit if I have to compromise on that. But let's see.

===

On other news.. This morning I've had a chat with my partner, she said that most of the time she probably wouldn't be fussed about steaming milk and she'd just add milk to her coffee. To be honest that's how I would see myself as well, and it's difficult to know whether the habit will change if I get a high-level machine.

I'm constantly flipping between "get the bare minimum with PID" and "get the best". Then I open eBay and check the last minutes of the auction for the refurbed unmodded Gaggia I was following.. £280 + £15 shipping. I think if we give it another month, they'll cost like a dual boiler machine.. Gaggias are the Bitcoin of the coffee world.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

eBay prices are silly should be possible to pick up a classic for £200 and add a pid for £100 the £300 investment is pretty secure short term at least

just after you buy a 6 month old dream machine will pop up for a bargain that's life.....

I do find it strange considering a pid can found for £100-150 why manufactures think they can charge such a premium for installing it at the factory 🤷‍♂️


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HDAV said:


> eBay prices are silly should be possible to pick up a classic for £200 and add a pid for £100 the £300 investment is pretty secure short term at least
> 
> just after you buy a 6 month old dream machine will pop up for a bargain that's life.....
> 
> I do find it strange considering a pid can found for £100-150 why manufactures think they can charge such a premium for installing it at the factory 🤷‍♂️


 Ah yes it "should" be possible, however all the ones I've put in my watchlist (only those with pictures of the inside of the machine) have ended at £250 to £290. Sure there are some going for £180 but most of the times they come without pictures of the machine, and I have recently seen an unfortunate forum member who was given a lemon for that price. Not that keen on playing the lottery!

I will definitely give myself some time to think. Research fatigue is kicking in slowly yet surely and I sometimes find myself thinking "this is just too much, stick to your ugly De Longhi and forget espresso". I am secretly hoping that stock deliveries at BCC and BB are going to be slightly delayed, so that I don't have to stress too much on grabbing the occasion on the fly.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Baffo said:


> I am secretly hoping that stock deliveries at BCC and BB are going to be slightly delayed, so that I don't have to stress too much on grabbing the occasion on the fly.


 Well someone has answered your prayers. Our machines are going to be at least an extra week!



Baffo said:


> Thanks David. From what a quick Googling revealed, they seem to feature on Bezzera's HX range. Is there a reason why they don't feature on single/double boiler machines? Or am I missing its presence on some machines..
> 
> Anyway, in general I think the nerd in me prefers a PID, I think I got headaches watching some videos from DaveC doing weird temperature stuff on the Mara X..


 Currently the BZ group is in action mostly on Hx machines. The Duo MN is a BZ group but that is quite a chunk past what you are budgeting for.

A Unica with a PID control BZ group would be excellent. Kinda the ultimate espresso focussed SBDU. I will ask the question......they do have a lot planned this year as I understand so you never know!


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

So, this morning, whilst working (I often have the "luxury" of doing dull stuff in Excel, which is great for having my phone with YT playing on the side), I decided to have a look at a few machines and how they actually work.

I stumbled across this video. After some rather boring unboxing, it shows how to actually setup and use the Unica, which is one of the machines I was looking at. Two things that caught my eyes were:

- ahead of doing anything with steam (circa 6:10 in the video) you need to purge the steam valve for 10 seconds, to avoid the backflow of liquid into the boiler.

- refill water tank every time you use the steam (and I presume then either manually or automatically feed this water into the boiler. It seems to be manual on the Unica)

- after doing anything with steam, (7:25) you need to get rid of the excess steam.

A few questions come to mind:

1. At the cost of sounding lazy, is all of the above required on all machines or is it a prerogative for SBDU? I understand some bits might be easier on DB at least, unsure on HX.

2. Is getting rid of the steam (ie what described at 7:25) required (and when I say "required", I mean even if it was just for maintenance good practices) even if I am done with brewing and I can let the machine cool down on its own? Or is it required only if you wish to pull more shots (which wouldn't apply to me)?

The workflow required is not rocket science, however I do believe that it would be a bit faff-y for me. Not because I'm a nobleman who can't be bothered with peasantry things (well, a bit) bu mostly as when I'll start working from the office again there is no way in hell I could go through all of that. Even on weekends, if I also account for the waiting time due to the single boiler, the total time needed probably would put me off making lattes/cappuccinos (which were not really a "need" of mine, but had they been easy enough I would have been open to having a few) and have me make an americano instead.

Are other SBDU, DB or HX machines (and when I say HX I mostly mean the Mara X) better from this standpoint, or is all of this required with all machines when dealing with steam? If this is common across the whole spectrum of machines, I definitely can settle on something to make just espresso and then add water or milk on the side, cause I won't have the time to go through it..

I do apologise if the questions are silly, but I'm learning every day something new, and sometimes you end up learning "advanced stuff" before you learn the basics..


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

erm,

thats a ball ache.....


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> erm,
> 
> thats a ball ache.....


 You mean my post or the workflow required? 😅

Ps. if anybody has any similar videos to share so that I can get an idea of how things would work on other machines, I'm happy to watch them..


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

my old hx machine


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

> 9 minutes ago, Cuprajake said:
> 
> my old hx machine


 The video is clear on how fast that is. But it mostly highlights the key selling point of not needing to wait for a SBDU machine to heat up the boiler (which is one source of faffing, but at least during this time I could do other things!), without addressing some key details on the faffing I'd highlighted in my previous post.. Are you saying that on that machine:

- no water purge is required ahead to avoid backflow of water in the boiler? (this seems like a clear no, since you've not done it, but maybe you were in a hurry? 😅)

- if you didn't have to pull more shots, there would have been no need to get rid of excess steam? (but again, I don't understand whether this applies to the Unica and other SBDU machines only when having to pull more shots, or you have to do it regardless after you've used the steam)

- no need to refill the water tank every single time you use steam?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Baffo said:


> I've sent an email. To be honest they look way too "fancy & fashionable" to be cheap. Kinda like the Zara of coffee machines (and they're Spanish too). I'm also not convinced on the 60mm PF - I might as well get a Lelit if I have to compromise on that. But let's see.
> 
> ===
> 
> On other news.. This morning I've had a chat with my partner, she said that most of the time she probably wouldn't be fussed about steaming milk and she'd just add milk to her coffee. To be honest that's how I would see myself as well, and it's difficult to know whether the habit will change if I get a high-level machine.


 When nice smooth tasty microfoamed milk is only 30 or 40s work... your views might change


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

DavecUK said:


> When nice smooth tasty microfoamed milk is only 30 or 40s work... your views might change


 Well Dave you are exactly right - but the key word is "when"! Even ignoring SBDU boiler heating time, it does seem a bit more faffy than that. At least for that Bezzera.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

only single boiler ish machine i had was a sage duo temp pro where you waited about 15s for steam, then it took about a minute to steam, then you go back to brewing,

i jumped to hx as i didnt want the faff of a single boiler,

sounds like your talking yourself into a single boiler machine, fwiw the easier something is to do the more you will do it,

so the hx i could steam in about 30s, some do this while pulling the shot, if its going to take 4 mins to do steamed milk id not bother...

yeah it was a bit rushed, it was a timed thing on the forum for a laugh haha

at £900 i cant see why you wouldnt spend the extra £200 for a minima, i know im banging a drum but its such a better and easier machine to use, and you can have one boiler on the steam boiler is a 5min heat cycle should you want to use it

grinder wise a mignon specilita would suit it to the ground £340 ( niche appeal if your going back and forth to grind sizes for pour over)


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Not sure why anyone would buy a single boiler over a pavoni. Mara x/minima then fair enough you're getting features a pavoni can't offer but anything sub £700? doesn't come close, especially to somebody who wants steam on demand, Only makes two drinks max, doesn't want something that will fall apart etc


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> only single boiler ish machine i had was a sage duo temp pro where you waited about 15s for steam, then it took about a minute to steam, then you go back to brewing,
> 
> i jumped to hx as i didnt want the faff of a single boiler,
> 
> ...


 Well yes I mean, until now I was just told "with SBDU you need to wait for the boiler to heat up". This for me doesn't necessarily warrant the extra £300 (if I recall it's £1250) hence why I might have seen stubbornly wanting SBDU.

But if I'm adding all of the water/steam adjustments above on top of the waiting time, *if these aren't required with HX and DB*, then surely I need to either just grab a cheaper machine & just do espresso, or avoid SBDU.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> Well Dave you are exactly right - but the key word is "when"! Even ignoring SBDU boiler heating time, it does seem a bit more faffy than that. At least for that Bezzera.


 I'm assuming you have browsed YouTube videos to get an idea of SBDU machine workflows? Something like the Rancilio Silvia?






If you want to make two lattes for example it would be a pain in my opinion. I'm not sure about the Bezzera machine but typically after steaming you have to wait for the boiler temp to come down before making espresso. Alternatively you can manually purge water to bring the temp down - on something like a sage machine this is done automatically.

In all honesty if the sage DTP or bambino were still around £200 I would recommend it as a starting machine. Very easy/quick workflow.

With a DB machine there is no faff. Use WiFi smart plug to put the machine on a timer, or remotely turn on machine from phone or turn on manually. Steam ready in 7 mins on the Minima, ready to brew coffee in 30-35 mins. Then you essentially make espresso and steam whenever you want.

That's why I went straight from a Sage machine to a DB, along with temp stability. Skip the faff.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

KTD said:


> Not sure why anyone would buy a single boiler over a pavoni. Mara x/minima then fair enough you're getting features a pavoni can't offer but anything sub £700? doesn't come close, especially to somebody who wants steam on demand, Only makes two drinks max, doesn't want something that will fall apart etc


 As a newbie, I thought that other than waiting a little bit (2-3m) for the boiler to heat up, steam on SBDU was more or less "on demand" with no additional faff. But that video revealed to me that there's a bit of other faff that I hadn't thought of.

The key thing for me would be the PID. I haven't looked much into the La Pavoni, but other than guesswork/experience how would I know whether I'm brewing at 85c or 95c? I am willing to sacrifice a little bit of accuracy (hence reconsidering HX if less faff), but I'm not sure how I'd "keep it in the ballpark of the ideal temperature +/- 2c" with the Pavoni


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Grouphead temp stickers work well enough. Routine will dictate temperature too, especially when you are only making a couple of drinks then turning off. There are so many benefits if you do decide to keep the budget low you should definitely put them under consideration.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

> 19 minutes ago, HVL87 said:
> 
> I'm assuming you have browsed YouTube videos to get an idea of SBDU machine workflows? Something like the Rancilio Silvia?


 I did, but the only thing that was clearly specified was having to wait for the boiler to heat up, and that I was ok with doing. I hadn't seen anywhere being mentioned that one needs to:

- purge the water ahead of steaming for 10s to avoid backflow into the boiler

- refill water tank every time you steam

- purge excess steaming when "returning to coffee mode" (and I'm still unclear on whether this is required regardless of whether I intend to keep brewing or not). I knew that one needed to quickly run some steam to help cleaning the tip from milk, but the guy in the video goes wild on it to remove every little bit of steam left..


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> I did, but the only thing that was clearly specified was having to wait for the boiler to heat up, and that I was ok with doing. I hadn't seen anywhere being mentioned that one needs to:
> 
> - purge the water ahead of steaming for 10s to avoid backflow into the boiler
> 
> - purge excess steaming when "returning to coffee mode" (and I'm still unclear on whether this is required regardless on whether I intend to keep brewing or not)


 Maybe @BlackCatCoffee can comment on what is specific to the Bezzera or SBDU machines in general. I'm not sure if he stocks the Unica specifically.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> Maybe @BlackCatCoffee can comment on what is specific to the Bezzera or SBDU machines in general. I'm not sure if he stocks the Unica specifically.


 He will shortly, hence my morning research on this. 

I'll have to watch similar videos on the Mara X, on the Elizabeth / Minima, La Pavoni, and then hopefully I'll have some clarity on the Faff Index of each.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

you get 5% forum discount on machines with blackcat,

i looked at the la pavoni as im interested in levers but there not for me, you have to be quite forceful and i have a frozen shoulder


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> you get 5% forum discount on machines with blackcat,
> 
> i looked at the la pavoni as im interested in levers but there not for me, you have to be quite forceful and i have a frozen shoulder


 Did it magically unfreeze when having to reach out to the wallet to get the Minima? 😁

But yes I'll look at Minima, Mara X, La Pavoni and Elizabeth to figure out how the workflow compares. It's just difficult to find videos that are more detailed than just "pulling a shot" without going through best practices and all that.

@DavecUK unsure if you're still "in the business" but since I know that you've used both the Mara X and the Minima (provided that the Dave doing the BB review on YouTube is you..), is there anything that you can comment on? Sorry for throwing you on the spotlight, you can ignore this post if you can't or don't want


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

well @DavecUK covers the minima, elizabeth and marax in depth,

for me, id never consider a pavoni haha totally different machines


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> well @DavecUK covers the minima, elizabeth and marax in depth,
> 
> for me, id never consider a pavoni haha totally different machines


 Yep just tagged him as he (I presume) appeared on my YouTube, so I thought I might as well ask whether all that I've highlighted above is required on any of these machines.

For what I want, accuracy is key, but lack of faff is keyer!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)




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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Cuprajake said:


> well @DavecUK covers the minima, elizabeth and marax in depth,
> for me, id never consider a pavoni haha totally different machines


What would you buy if you had £350 in your pocket?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

probably nothing, knowing what i now no.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Key word is now. You may carry on learning as you have since you bought your first machine.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

@KTD i know the pavoni has its lovers, im not arguing that fact but you cant compare a pavoni to a dual boiler pid machine,

the pavoni is for the purists, you have to mod them if you want sability or any idea of whats going on, its ok to like diffrent things, i almost bought a l1 leaver that coffeechap was selling, in the end i went for a new machine


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Of course you can compare them. Compare them on price, ease of fixing, heat up times, size. People have different needs, if baffo wants to spend £1250 then yes the minima is probably best bang for buck but I'm not sure he does.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

KTD said:


> Key word is now. You may carry on learning as you have since you bought your first machine.


 The pavoni to me seems like a machine you buy after climbing the ladder from SBDU/sage to HX/DB. At least that's what everyone seems to do.

You want a simple machine to make a couple of coffees with maybe a bit of steamed milk if you fancy it? I don't think it's something I would jump straight into as a first machine? I would feel like I'm missing out, at least initially, even if that may not be the case.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

HVL87 said:


> The pavoni to me seems like a machine you buy after climbing the ladder from SBDU/sage to HX/DB. At least that's what everyone seems to do.
> You want a simple machine to make a couple of coffees with maybe a bit of steamed milk if you fancy it? I don't think it's something I would jump straight into as a first machine? I would feel like I'm missing out, at least initially, even if that may not be the case.


Agreed. I think you're probably right.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

each to their own,

fwiw i looked at them before the hx, ive always had a romance of the lever, propperly pulling a shot is the pinnacle for me,

but it has to work, the pavoni from my research looked cumbersome, actually hard to pull. not doubting the coffee it makes.

used there near the new price, you can pick them up from £400 new if the sites are genuine, even selfridges sell them £600 though


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## Northern_Monkey (Sep 11, 2018)

@KTD - A second hand Pavoni


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Baffo said:


> Did it magically unfreeze when having to reach out to the wallet to get the Minima? 😁
> 
> But yes I'll look at Minima, Mara X, La Pavoni and Elizabeth to figure out how the workflow compares. It's just difficult to find videos that are more detailed than just "pulling a shot" without going through best practices and all that.
> 
> @DavecUK unsure if you're still "in the business" but since I know that you've used both the Mara X and the Minima (provided that the Dave doing the BB review on YouTube is you..), is there anything that you can comment on? Sorry for throwing you on the spotlight, you can ignore this post if you can't or don't want


 The review I did for Elizabeth, MaraX and Minima wasn't for Bella Barista, but more as a standalone from the manufacturers. I have used extensively around 50+ machines from thermoblocks, single boiler, HX, Levers through to DB and pressure profiling.

Would I personally go back to a single boiler....probably not, unless it was a ECM Puristika and I was space limited (I have one), but you can't buy it yet.. However, I don't drink milk drinks very often. Did I like the Rancilio Silvia/s I tested...not I didn't, they simply didn't do it for me and were not great on temp control. I have tried around 8+ single boiler machines.



If you want milk and no faff, then most HX/dual boilers will give you that, even pressure profilers don't have to profile.


If you want the ability to run with the steam boiler off (until you want it), more precise temperature control...then you need a dual boiler machine


If you want quiet, then a Lelit with the QuietX pump, a rotary, or retrofit a QuietX pump to a Minima.


If you want the absolute m,inimum on maintenance, either a solenoid operated E61, or a ring group.


If you want looks...that's personal


If you want bling...go for a big name


It's a very personal choice.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

for £350 i'd find an extra £30-50 and buy a Sage . cheap, easy enough to use for a newbie, backed by warranty - if you're drinking primarily milk-based drinks they are a lot more forgiving of 'getting it wrong' than espresso. 54mm basket a bit of a pita (as mentioned), temp stability not the greatest if you don't work within its parameters. seems like the DTP is more forgiving in this regard, but the Bambino has auto milk steaming which I find useful in the mornings. And it is ready to go (warming flushes aside) in 3 seconds from turning on.

seems like the next step up that isn't a 'halfway house' is whatever the cheapest DB is, £1100+. my next machine will be a DB for sure - which one though, i have no idea! i will say, if one of those £650-700 deals on a Sage DB ever comes back, i'd buy that in a heartbeat lol.

i kinda think (because you've never made coffee) you don't know enough about what you want/need in a machine, and you don't know anything about your workflow. a casual browse around these forums will tell you that the 'experienced' ones all value different things, and have different loves/hates - as @DavecUK, far more experienced than me has said above. as such, as i said before, there's every chance you buy a DB or HX and discover that actually, that particular machine is not for you. i still think waiting for a non-gougy second-hand GC is the smart play...in fact i think there's one in the For Sale forum atm for £200, in Northern Ireland though but he said he would post.


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## HDAV (Dec 28, 2012)

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/57706-i-think-i%E2%80%99ve-bought-the-wrong-machine/?do=embed

worth a read........upgraditis maybe


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

facboy said:


> for £350 i'd find an extra £30-50 and buy a Sage . cheap, easy enough to use for a newbie, backed by warranty - if you're drinking primarily milk-based drinks they are a lot more forgiving of 'getting it wrong' than espresso. 54mm basket a bit of a pita (as mentioned), temp stability not the greatest if you don't work within its parameters. seems like the DTP is more forgiving in this regard, but the Bambino has auto milk steaming which I find useful in the mornings. And it is ready to go (warming flushes aside) in 3 seconds from turning on.
> 
> seems like the next step up that isn't a 'halfway house' is whatever the cheapest DB is, £1100+. my next machine will be a DB for sure - which one though, i have no idea! i will say, if one of those £650-700 deals on a Sage DB ever comes back, i'd buy that in a heartbeat lol.
> 
> i kinda think (because you've never made coffee) you don't know enough about what you want/need in a machine, and you don't know anything about your workflow. a casual browse around these forums will tell you that the 'experienced' ones all value different things, and have different loves/hates - as @DavecUK, far more experienced than me has said above. as such, as i said before, there's every chance you buy a DB or HX and discover that actually, that particular machine is not for you. i still think waiting for a non-gougy second-hand GC is the smart play...in fact i think there's one in the For Sale forum atm for £200, in Northern Ireland though but he said he would post.


 Maybe I'm blind but I didn't see any GC for sale?

But yes, it's clear that I don't quite know what I want and what I need, but I know how I am as a person and I know I hate faffing (whether it be maintenance, temp surfing, and the likes of whatever that Bezzera seemed to require) and I am nerdy (ie if I know that temperature stability is paramount, I can't get a machine that doesn't have it).

I am trying to discover how each machine works, so that perhaps I can avoid the process of finding that I don't like something (whether it's a second hand GC or a DB machine..) only after I bought it..


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

The process is the same on any machine,

How long it takes is another matter.

I never made one nice drink on the classic i had, i spent days and went through 1kg of coffee trying to do so.

I get people love them, they have their following, not for me in the slightest.

Some machines just have a cult following, its one of them. Imo

Its like cars, i always wanted an impreza spec c limited edition, super rare. Got one, wasnt all that sadly


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Baffo said:


> Maybe I'm blind but I didn't see any GC for sale?
> 
> But yes, it's clear that I don't quite know what I want and what I need, but I know how I am as a person and I know I hate faffing (whether it be maintenance, temp surfing, and the likes of whatever that Bezzera seemed to require) and I am nerdy (ie if I know that temperature stability is paramount, I can't get a machine that doesn't have it).
> 
> I am trying to discover how each machine works, so that perhaps I can avoid the process of finding that I don't like something (whether it's a second hand GC or a DB machine..) only after I bought it..


https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56523-gaggia-classic-2011/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=800347&embedComment=800347&embedDo=findComment#comment-800347

seems to be available, at least it was a month ago, and hasn't been moved to sold.

@ratty posted two on Friday it seems, for £249 refurbed with a pressure gauge installed. i would have jumped on that, could PM him and see if/when he might have others ready?


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> But yes, it's clear that I don't quite know what I want and what I need, but I know how I am as a person and I know I hate faffing (whether it be maintenance, temp surfing, and the likes of whatever that Bezzera seemed to require) and I am nerdy (ie if I know that temperature stability is paramount, I can't get a machine that doesn't have it).


 Didn't you just narrow it down to a DB here (like I did myself)? Solenoid E61 or ring group for low maintenance. 
So either that or an Aeropress 😄

A sage machine doesn't require much faff but as has been said before, it has its disadvantages and is currently overpriced (almost double).

How much do you enjoy drinking coffee?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

> 7 hours ago, Baffo said:
> 
> So, this morning, whilst working (I often have the "luxury" of doing dull stuff in Excel, which is great for having my phone with YT playing on the side), I decided to have a look at a few machines and how they actually work.
> 
> ...


 They do make this into a rather convoluted affair but what they are saying is technically correct. This is however no different to how any other SBDU.

David


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

facboy said:


> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56523-gaggia-classic-2011/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=800347&embedComment=800347&embedDo=findComment#comment-800347
> 
> seems to be available, at least it was a month ago, and hasn't been moved to sold.
> 
> @ratty posted two on Friday it seems, for £249 refurbed with a pressure gauge installed. i would have jumped on that, could PM him and see if/when he might have others ready?


 Well I saw that but I thought it was a bit much, then saw weirder prices on eBay. I might message him. It's just that I'm still in the stage where I haven't figured out what to do, there's clearly value in both the camp of those who suggest a cheap Gaggia, and in those who suggest a DB/HX. I'm just undecided by nature but I will message ratty and see what he says..


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> They do make this into a rather convoluted affair but what they are saying is technically correct. This is however no different to how any other SBDU.
> 
> David


 Thanks David - so after any usage of steam you have to basically purge all of the excess steam out? I would've thought this be required only if you intend to cool down the machine to pull another espresso.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

After steaming you must refill the boiler with water and the easiest way to see when this is achieved is by running the pump and opening the steam valve to see when the steam turns to water.

If you do not refill the boiler it is possible you will cause damage to the machine or more likely cause one of the high limit stats to trip.

Again, this is the same with all SBDU machines like the Classic and Silvia. It is an extra step and as you say could be regarded as a bit of a faff but if you are looking for perfectly stable temps for espresso then the choice boils down to somethibg like the Unica with this compromise or going the extra step to a DB machine.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> Didn't you just narrow it down to a DB here (like I did myself)? Solenoid E61 or ring group for low maintenance.
> So either that or an Aeropress 😄
> 
> A sage machine doesn't require much faff but as has been said before, it has its disadvantages and is currently overpriced (almost double).
> ...


 Well I think every day I narrow it down to a different type of machine and price range..

I started this with the dream of doing proper espresso (the way I used to drink it when I lived back home in Italy) with some milk drinks, and then it all grew arms and legs.

I do enjoy drinking it a lot, but to be honest I am an easy person, I can drink anything remotely passable from my De Longhi and be ok with it, it was more me getting curious and wanting to try and make it into a hobby, learn new things, try new beans, etc.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Could get a flair


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Could get a flair


 You mean the faffiest machine of them all? A faff to preheat, a faff to get temps right, a faff to clean.. I'd say no thanks 🤣


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> Well I think every day I narrow it down to a different type of machine and price range..
> 
> I started this with the dream of doing proper espresso (the way I used to drink it when I lived back home in Italy) with some milk drinks, and then it all grew arms and legs.
> 
> I do enjoy drinking it a lot, but to be honest I am an easy person, I can drink anything remotely passable from my De Longhi and be ok with it, it was more me getting curious and wanting to try and make it into a hobby, learn new things, try new beans, etc.


 Well from the sounds of it I don't think you are going to be happy compromising - seems like an all or nothing scenario.

Also you are clearly enjoying this "research" process too much 😄


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> Well from the sounds of it I don't think you are going to be happy compromising - seems like an all or nothing scenario.
> 
> Also you are clearly enjoying this "research" process too much 😄


 I mean it's tricky. It might seem to many people that I'm going all over the place, and it's true. But it's not happening randomly, it's because new key bits of information are entering my brain.

I thought I'd go for a Gaggia >>> saw the prices, didn't quite want to.

I thought I'd go for some other single boiler machines >>> was suggested they're not as good as a Gaggia, so better either Gaggia, HX or DB

I thought I'd go for an HX >>> realised temps would not necessarily be as stable, and I thought I could get better temp stability with a boiler

People suggested DB >>> I dismissed as I thought they'd be overkill for my needs, and thought SBDU would have little faff other than waiting for the boiler to heat up

I thought I'd go for a SBDU with PID (eg Unica) >>> realised that there was additional faffing this morning with SBDU machines, and I was totally wrong in dismissing DB (where the only compromise is a lighter wallet) and HX (where the compromise is a little bit of temp stability)

It's been a very erratic process, but now I know that for me it's either GC +PID and I say goodbye to milk drinks, or I go DB/HX.

Then again, maybe tomorrow things will change, ha!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Hx the temps are pretty stable and relatable with a quick flushz esp if you have a group thermometer.

Hx with pid and the issuses gone

Personally think the gaggia on ebay are well over inflated.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Hx the temps are pretty stable and relatable with a quick flushz esp if you have a group thermometer.
> 
> Hx with pid and the issuses gone
> 
> Personally think the gaggia on ebay are well over inflated.


 Yep I think I'm in agreement with all. As of now, if a used Gaggia for a decent price materialises, I could snatch it and use it as a learning tool for a little while - otherwise it's going to be between the Mara X and some entry level DB.


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## ratty (Sep 22, 2019)

facboy said:


> @ratty posted two on Friday it seems, for £249 refurbed with a pressure gauge installed. i would have jumped on that, could PM him and see if/when he might have others ready?


 I have two machines to work on at the moment the first one is (probably) sold already, and I have promised to finish it by February 22nd. Both machines will come with oil filled front pressure gauges and new Rancilio Sylvia steam wands. OPV set to 9 bar.

The second one needs lots of parts as I bought only the case and a few bits and bobs from MartinB on the forum.

I cannot see this one being finished until late March but it's difficult to judge as one major job will be making the whole wiring harness from scratch if I cannot get hold of a used one without paying over the odds. I've done one before but worked very slowly on it. Other parts need to be sourced, hopefully good used parts, as new priced parts are expensive but sometimes necessary.

This is only a hobby for me to keep the old Classics going in proper order, so it's done more or less completely at my leisure between coffee and wine drinking and full time caring for my Mother. It's not a business!

Always good to have a buyer in hand though, that tends to spur me on.

Thanks for the mention.

ratty


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

ratty said:


> I have two machines to work on at the moment the first one is (probably) sold already, and I have promised to finish it by February 22nd. Both machines will come with oil filled front pressure gauges and new Rancilio Sylvia steam wands. OPV set to 9 bar.
> 
> The second one needs lots of parts as I bought only the case and a few bits and bobs from MartinB on the forum.
> 
> ...


 Thanks ratty. Do keep me in mind when this is done. If I've not purchased anything silly expensive by then* I'll be happy to take this off your hands.

*let's face it, I will probably have, it's just me.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Some update. I'm writing this more as a diary (might help fellow nerds such as @EvilLewis - speaking of whom, what's your current situation?) of my daily research, so you might find it boring.

Whilst I'm still open to a GC (and other than waiting for ratty, I have alerts set up on FB Marketplace and Gumtree, which unlike eBay could have some good deals to be snatched), I'm looking at other viable alternatives. Ruling out premium SBDU (which as of now, have a very poor faff/£ ratio), seeing what is/will be available between BlackCatCoffee and Bella Barista, I see a few units of interest.

Bezzera BZ10, Lelit MaraX, Lelit Elizabeth, ACS Minima. So, two DB and two HX.

Again, please remember, I've not committed I'll buy one of these. I can still go the cheaper route and get a Gaggia to mod, but other than this, I really see no other unit that would suit my needs (eg low faff for £) between the Gaggia and the £1k price mark (Pavoni aside, perhaps). As pointed out rightfully by others in this thread, the "middle ground" of premium SBDU just does not cut it for me, hardly any reduction in faff, and what you get for a £900 SBDU machine is just not enough to then not look at HX/DB (similar quality, far less faff) or a modded GC (less quality, very slightly more faff, but one third of the expense).

The Gaggia has been talked about plenty - no need for further discussion here.

Looks-wise, the MaraX is slightly more attractive than the BZ10, and the Minima is by far more attractive than the Elizabeth. Perhaps only the Elizabeth is a machine I would say I don't quite like, the other ones are all more or less pleasant to my eye.

I've done some initial research on the Lelit MaraX and this is what I've come up with for now. Again, this is more me using this as a diary/notepad, and maybe somebody lurking will find it useful. I do have a couple questions still unanswered, but I will research them myself even if you don't answer - you are very welcome to chip in with your opinions and knowledge if you feel like it, though!

*Pros of the MaraX:*

- Smaller price (roughly £200 cheaper) than DB options

- Smaller footprint than all (even the BZ10)

- Probably faster heat-up time (however this might be moot with a smart plug properly scheduled on a DB)

- More quiet (again, this could be partly addressed by fitting a similar pump to the ACS and Bezzera perhaps, but still, £ and time required. Elizabeth would be the quietest due to rotary pump - funny enough, I speak about it but I don't even know what this is - but I suppose the MaraX is already quiet enough)

*Cons: *

- Some compromise on temp stability (however this might be moot, especially for a newbie)

- More maintenance required (at least lubrication required, possibly more stuff?)

- There seems to be some teething issues with many units, judging by the Lelit section here

- In general, looking at DaveC's videos such as the temp test, a simple mind like mine sort of struggles to understand the machine (however, I'm sure this can be learned even by a primate like me)

*Question Marks:*

- The MaraX seems to be some sort of new-gen HX, different from old units (which I presume the BZ10 falls into). I've yet to decipher what this means in practice, faff levels, expertise required. Research required.

- Something has been mentioned on the BZ group being different than the E61, but unsure which one would be best for me. Research required.

I do still have to look into the other machines in more detail (especially the Elizabeth), but this is what I came up with in the early morning before starting work.

And yes, @HVL87 I am enjoying this way too much.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> Probably faster heat-up time (however this might be moot with a smart plug properly scheduled on a DB)


 I believe the MaraX takes around 30 mins to heat up. Elizabeth only 17 mins or so.



Baffo said:


> More quiet (again, this could be partly addressed by fitting a similar pump to the ACS and Bezzera perhaps, but still, £ and time required. Elizabeth would be the quietest due to rotary pump - funny enough, I speak about it but I don't even know what this is - but I suppose the MaraX is already quiet enough)


 Personally I don't think you would want to bother with replacing the pump in the Minima due to the faff, unless you are quite hands on. The pump isn't too bad unless you need a quiet machine in the morning like @Cuprajake.

The Elizabeth and MaraX have the same pump which is a vibe pump not rotary, although apparently significantly quieter than the one in the Minima or other vibratory pump machines. Just be aware of other rattling noises on a machine like the Elizabeth (inlet hose in water reservoir, drip tray etc.) Possibly even the Marax too.



Baffo said:


> And yes, @HVL87 I am enjoying this way too much.


 I enjoyed it just as much as you and hopefully the research never stops 😄


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

as another get out clause, i'd keep an eye on whether a retailer does discount the Bambino or the DTP, it happened a few months ago I believe (currys?) and people snapped them up for £230 or so. though you may not get the colour you want.

btw, if you decide to go for it and u want a Niche, might as well order now as by the time you get it you might have found a machine as well .


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

facboy said:


> as another get out clause, i'd keep an eye on whether a retailer does discount the Bambino or the DTP, it happened a few months ago I believe (currys?) and people snapped them up for £230 or so. though you may not get the colour you want.
> 
> btw, if you decide to go for it and u want a Niche, might as well order now as by the time you get it you might have found a machine as well .


 The Bambino could be a very good first machine to get some practice on (I am assuming it can go with an unpressurised PF, and as far as I can recall it brews at decent pressure instead of silly 15bar) - I had discounted it completely due to the current £399 street price, I wasn't aware that discounts could go that deep.

For £230 it would be a no brainer for the lack of faff and would snatch one for sure (at the cost of upsetting @Cuprajake!). At least as a first machine, it would make plenty of sense to get some initial practice, and if after x weeks/months I'm still sold, I would surely be able to sell it for virtually no loss (let's call it a leasing fee) if not a small profit.

Curry's and LakeLand are out of stock on the discounted ones, and I couldn't find it for cheap anywhere else online, but if anybody knows of anything I'm listening..

Re: the Niche, I really want to do my research beforehand (don't you say?), ultimately there might be some cheaper Eureka that works almost as well with single dosing with low retention. Or maybe not. Surely I don't want to enter this rabbit hole before I get the machine sorted. The JX Pro might be faffy but at least it can handle espresso.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

i had the duo temp pro, bought new from john lewis on sale, that was £249 new 2yr warrenty, great little machine


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)




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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

I'll watch the videos above later, thanks!

Meanwhile, touting my own horn, but became a bronze sponsor as a thank you for all the help I've got (and that I will get).


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

@Baffo - you repeatedly mentioned you don't want to faff. Did you define for yourself what this means and what sort of 'faff' you want to avoid? I am asking this because as I see it, this hobby inherently involves faff, and one might say faff is what it is all about. People who don't want faff pour boiling water over instant or Turkish coffee and they are done. If they want espresso-like coffee - they get a Nespresso capsule machine.

With all the machines you are considering, you will need to constantly source fresh beans, monitor your water, grind fresh coffee and dial it in, distribute, level, tamp, brew, weigh, clean, maintain...

I think that If you just wanted to drink coffee and not prepared to faff, then you wouldn't be here generating a 7-page (and counting) thread about choosing a machine, would you?

As a thought experiment, if a complete cycling newb asked you what first bike to get and how much to spend on it - what would you say and why? Maybe that will help you understand what coffee machine you want?


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

@Doram yes I have a very clear view of what I do and don't want to faff about. If it seems unclear to some readers, it's mostly because I'm learning things as I go, hence one day I think SBDU are not faffy, and the following day I say they are. I'm happy to explain it if that would help?

Going through your list:

*source fresh beans -* that's not a faff for me, that's part of the fun, trying new beans, new flavours, I've mentioned this I think.. Perhaps in another thread.

*monitor your water -* I mean, that's totally fine. I did express annoyance at having to refill SBDU boilers every single time steam is used, but that would have been potentially multiple times a day. I doubt this would be the case otherwise.

*grind fresh coffee and dial it in, distribute, level, tamp, brew, weigh -* once I have an electronic grinder that's also not faff for me, it's part of the art of discovery. Sure, I might not weigh the output every single time. Sure, I might at times get frustrated if I can't dial a shot properly and get channeling, but the general feeling is positive.

*clean, maintain... - *yes that might be relevant as I've mentioned. However, I'm happy with some periodic maintenance. What I'm not happy with is daily excessive routines which one may find especially in manual machines. In other words, "one hour of maintenance" (as an example) can mean different things. 1 hour of maintenance a month can mean one session once a month, or two minutes every single day after pouring a shot. The former is much preferable to me.

Regarding your thought experiment, (any non-cyclists can stop reading here to avoid a boring talk about those objects..) I am not sure coffee and bikes are apples to apples. Unlike coffee, in cycling you get virtually zero performance improvement in your experience by paying more (aside from perhaps a few things). Likewise, maintenance on a £10k bike will be pretty similar to maintenance on a £1k bike, provided we're comparing like-for-like (eg same brake type, same groupset type). And generally speaking, the experience between a £1k bike and a £10k bike can be extremely similar. In coffee - it seems to me - things are rather different on all of these fronts (surely there's diminishing returns at some point, but surely not before the £1000 mark?).

Further, I wouldn't suggest a bike to anybody just based on budget, I'd suggest very different bikes based on what the person is looking to do with it.

Anyway, for the sake of participating to the thought experiment, my main road bikes have both been a combination of top level frames (really not worth it, but my ego sometimes wins) with good value for money elsewhere (Ultegra Di2 - light carbon wheels from reputable Chinese manufacturers), with the groupset being chosen both for the "performance" and the reduced maintenance, and the wheels simply cause if you do your research properly (and as usual, I did) and avoid random AliExpress stuff, you buy the same stuff as very expensive branded wheels, but just cost one third.

Again most of the above is not really apples to apples with coffee, because in cycling you can build a bike for £3k that will perform 99.5% as good as a bike that costs four times as much, have the same maintenance, the same comfort, and pretty much the same riding experience. And, most newbies would be able to do virtually anything on a £500 bike anyway, not to mention that maintenance could easily be dealt with by a bike shop in a day (again, unlike a coffee machine where you're left on your own and if there's large repairs required, you need to ship it and probably wait for ages).

Apologies for the wall of text, it's just how I am..


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Baffo said:


> *monitor your water -* I mean, that's totally fine. I did express annoyance at having to refill SBDU boilers every single time steam is used, but that would have been potentially multiple times a day. I doubt this would be the case otherwise.


 This refers to the *quality* of the water, not filling the tank. Hard water is a primary cause for problems with espresso machines.

Depending on where you are, your water might be too hard and create a potential scaling problem for the machine components. If this is the case, as it is for many of us, you will have to either treat your tap water (filters, RO systems etc.) or use appropriate bottled water. Some people go further and create water with specific mineral content that is suitable for coffee. Some think this is faff, while others think it's essential.



Baffo said:


> In other words, "one hour of maintenance" (as an example) can mean different things. 1 hour of maintenance a month can mean one session once a month, or two minutes every single day after pouring a shot. The former is much preferable to me.


 Ideally you need to do all of the above: there are things you do after every shot (e.g. clean basket, flush group); things you do once a day (e.g. water backflush); things you do every few days (e.g. drop shower screen for cleaning, wash water tank and drip tray); things you do every few weeks (e.g. chemical backflush and lube cam if machine has it); things you do less often or when things go wrong (e.g. descale machine, check for faults, repair...). Some people don't do all or any of the above, but if you want to enjoy the machine and the coffee - then you most likely will.
Is there a difference in this routine between machines? Yes, there is, but the variations will be small and the general idea will be similar whichever machine you choose. None of the machines you mentioned will clean and maintain itself unfortunately, and no machine will need excessive cleaning compared to the others. If anything, it should be a factor in deciding whether you want to jump into the rabbit hole or not, not in the choice of a specific machine.



Baffo said:


> Regarding your thought experiment, I am not sure coffee and bikes are apples to apples.


 I didn't mean to ask you to detail your cycling purchase thoughts (it is a coffee forum after all), but as it turns out I think your message is very helpful, and the similarities to coffee machines are greater than you might realise. For example, you mentioned the top level frames (that you said are unnecessary); you said that most newbies could do anything with a £500 bike anyway. You said maintenance would be almost the same on a starter good bike and on a top-end one.

In my opinion, all of those things are relevant to coffee machines as well. A newb could do everything on a a Lelit Anna (SBDU with PID), and would not benefit straight away from a much better machine before they develop the skill (just the same as you think top level frame is unnecessary, but I am sure you agree it would make a difference if your ambition was to win the Tour de France).
In the same way, every machine will need cleaning. The differences are immaterial and don't make for a completely different experience in usage.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Doram said:


> This refers to the *quality* of the water, not filling the tank. Hard water is a primary cause for problems with espresso machines.
> 
> Depending on where you are, your water might be too hard and create a potential scaling problem for the machine components. If this is the case, as it is for many of us, you will have to either treat your tap water (filters, RO systems etc.) or use appropriate bottled water. Some people go further and create water with specific mineral content that is suitable for coffee. Some think this is faff, while others think it's essential.
> 
> ...


 Luckily water in Scotland is soft, probably the softest in the UK - so I should be at least somewhat exempt/less at risk from some of those issues.

That said, I don't understand why we're focusing on "winning the Tour De France" or "doing everything with a Lelit Anna, and not being able to make the most from expensive machines". I think I've been very clear as in that I'm looking at more expensive options only and purely to reduce the faff (ie worry less about my bike), surely not to improve the quality of my shots (ie win the tour the France with my bike).

In fact I've gone as far as to mention the "faff to £" as one of my main - if not the main - decision criteria.

So yes, I can do everything on the Lelit Anna, and in fact it might have been mentioned alongside other SBDU PID machines, and it would be a great machine for the price. However, it was brought to my attention that it might entail some additional routines (compared to HX and DB machines) that I could consider to be a faff.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

might be getting in too deep.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Baffo said:


> So yes, I can do everything on the Lelit Anna, and in fact it might have been mentioned alongside other SBDU PID machines, and it would be a great machine for the price. However, it was brought to my attention that it might entail some additional routines (compared to HX and DB machines) that I could consider to be a faff.


 If anything, I think it will be the other way around. The more I climb up the equipment ladder, the more faff is involved. Maybe it's just me.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Doram said:


> If anything, I think it will be the other way around. The more I climb up the equipment ladder, the more faff is involved. Maybe it's just me.


 I mean, considering that in 7 pages I've heard all kinds of different opinions on the matter, I wouldn't be surprised that there's no general agreement. Supposedly, once I get a machine, I'll be able to form my opinion as well.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

depends what you buy,

grind, tamp, pull

in essence

if your machine is stable then its not an issue


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Anyone want a game of faff bingo, down a shot of espresso every time someone says it


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

@KTD luckily it's a shot of espresso, otherwise steaming for some might be a fa.. nevermind.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)




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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

KTD said:


> Anyone want a game of faff bingo, down a shot of espresso every time someone says it


 Pulling all those espresso shots sounds like a faff to me. I'm out.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Baffo said:


> I mean, considering that in 7 pages I've heard all kinds of different opinions on the matter, I wouldn't be surprised that there's no general agreement. Supposedly, once I get a machine, I'll be able to form my opinion as well.


 Of course there is no general agreement, because it's a personal thing. We are all different, and there are no right and wrong answers to the questions you are asking.

It took me over 30 years of owning coffee machines to get to where I am today, yet you might be spending more money on your first machine than I did on my current one. My bike was £40 second hand, and yours is £5K. It's all okay, as long as you do what is right for you.

I get the feeling you are trying to learn to swim by standing outside the pool and talking to the people in the water. It's all good fun, but you will only really learn anything once you jump in.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Doram said:


> Of course there is no general agreement, because it's a personal thing. We are all different, and there is no right and wrong answers to the questions you are asking.
> 
> It took me over 30 years of owning coffee machines to get to where I am today, yet you might be spending more money on your first machine than I did on my current one. My bike was £40 second hand, and yours is £5K. It's all okay, as long as you do what is right for you.
> 
> I get the feeling you are trying to learn to swim by standing outside the pool and talking to the people in the water. It's all good fun, but you will only really learn anything once you jump in.


 To be completely honest I disagree on the relevance of the comparison of what I would pay vs what you paid, on the bike comparison, and also the swimming analogy, but surely it wouldn't serve anyone well to keep pursuing this line of discussion.

I will be keeping my elucubrations about expensive machines private, they seem to be controversial more than anything.. 😅


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

I'm still trying to figure out what my ideal machine is @Baffo. Part of me still feels like I'll be fine with a non PID SBDU (but one that's known for it's steaming ability like a Silvia). Part of me feels like It'll be too much of a faff waiting for the boiler to come up to steam temp etc, and that I'd be better off spending twice as much money on a MaraX or minima.

It's all just fun speculation at this point though until I'm in a position to actually spend hundreds of pounds haha


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

Doram said:


> If anything, I think it will be the other way around. The more I climb up the equipment ladder, the more faff is involved. Maybe it's just me.


 For me it's enjoyable faff 👍

Same with the faff on my bikes, I can spend a morning faffing about with one of my bikes.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

EvilLewis said:


> I'm still trying to figure out what my ideal machine is @Baffo. Part of me still feels like I'll be fine with a non PID SBDU (but one that's known for it's steaming ability like a Silvia). Part of me feels like It'll be too much of a faff waiting for the boiler to come up to steam temp etc, and that I'd be better off spending twice as much money on a MaraX or minima.
> 
> It's all just fun speculation at this point though until I'm in a position to actually spend hundreds of pounds haha


 I know another chap was helping you out in a different thread and I am sure his heart was in the right place but what he was saying about the Silvia and its steaming abilities do not align with my experience of the Silvia at all. I will admit though, I have not used the latest one but as far as I can tell they have actually reduced the wattage of the element in recent years which I think will only serve to reduce performance. In my experience it is a middle of the pack SBDU for steaming at best.

There is an excellent head to head of SBDU machines by WLL. They do some milk steaming comparisons that will be of interest to you I think.

David


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

> 5 minutes ago, BlackCatCoffee said:
> 
> I know another chap was helping you out in a different thread and I am sure his heart was in the right place but what he was saying about the Silvia and its steaming abilities do not align with my experience of the Silvia at all. I will admit though, I have not used the latest one but as far as I can tell they have actually reduced the wattage of the element in recent years which I think will only serve to reduce performance. In my experience it is a middle of the pack SBDU for steaming at best.
> 
> ...


 Thanks David. I do feel more drawn to the HX or DB option I think. It's all starting to feel pretty aspirational at this point haha


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

EvilLewis said:


> Thanks David. I do feel more drawn to the HX or DB option I think. It's all starting to feel pretty aspirational at this point haha


 Also the Bezerra hobby looks like a strong contender the SBDU game @BlackCatCoffee


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

EvilLewis said:


> Also the Bezerra hobby looks like a strong contender the SBDU game @BlackCatCoffee


 Whilst David will surely know more, keep in mind the Hobby has No PID and modding it might be troublesome due to lack of space:










Sorry for barging in, it's just that I've "been there, done that". I haven't really compared the boiler sizes and all that, though.


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Baffo said:


> Whilst David will surely know more, keep in mind the Hobby has No PID and modding it might be troublesome due to lack of space:
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry for barging in, it's just that I've "been there, done that". I haven't really compared the boiler sizes and all that, though.


 Yeah I think that honestly if I went "entry level" I'd probably accept the lack of proper temperature control. It's a shame there seems to be no real happy medium between £500 entry level machines, and ones costing £1k plus!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

In for a penny.


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## EvilLewis (Jan 26, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> In for a penny.


 In for a thousand pounds? That's definitely how the saying goes right?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)




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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

I think what I'm trying to get at, is if you have the disposable income, then jump all the the wasted time, and heart ache and by one by right.

You dont have to buy a niche. A migon specilita is more than capable of great coffee.

And as some one whos worked his way up, and spent a small fortune. If i could go back in time id tell myself to save up and wait, rather than rush out and buy cheap buy twice.

Saves so much messing.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

Cuprajake said:


> I think what I'm trying to get at, is if you have the disposable income, then jump all the the wasted time, and heart ache and by one by right.
> 
> You dont have to buy a niche. A migon specilita is more than capable of great coffee.
> 
> ...


 i think this is slightly disingenous. it pre-supposes that there is one 'right' answer, which given the plethora of machines people have ended up with after years in the game, seems to be inaccurate. some people's 'end-game' is a £300 la pavoni off e-bay, after they've tried everything else. others end up with a decent espresso, or a slayer, or who knows what else.

to take your grinder suggestion, a mignon is no good at single dosing, if that's what he wants to do, so he's already wasted money buying that. a niche is crap if he just wants to dump beans in a hopper and just use them for a couple of days, so that will be a waste. he doesn't know because he's never made a coffee in his life. that said, i think he's gonna have to take a punt on one of the two anyway .

a pump-driven DB is going to be the wrong purchase if he ultimately decides what he wants is a sprung lever machine. spending more is no guarantee that he will choose the 'right' gear, it just means he will have more sunk costs.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Well you can single dose a mignon.

I have actually done so. I ran tests to see if there was a difference in terms of shot times, same beans etc there wasnt.

Maybe i could of worded it better yeah,

But if the op want easy made repeatable low 'faff' then sadly that not usually obtained with a low cost machine. Ive learnt that for my self. Only trying to save the guy some cash.


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## Hieronymus (Feb 3, 2021)

Just because your results were consistent doesn't mean they were any good.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Haha

Ok


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Hieronymus said:


> Just because your results were consistent doesn't mean they were any good.


 What a useful and productive comment to make. Well done 👍

It doesn't take away from the fact that both good and consistent shots are more achievable and repeatable on a DB vs. a SBDU with no PID, for example.

An ideal scenario for the OP would be to have some hands on time with a cheaper machine to determine if the hobby is worth his while and whether the benefits of a better machine is worth the investment. Personally it didn't take me too long to reach this conclusion. Unfortunately you don't tend to realise it until you experience it for yourself.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Guy joined 2hrs ago and hes posting like hes been here all his life, if i were a betting man id say they had two accounts.

Anyway peace out, thread ignored no more help from me

Ps buy a minima????


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## Hieronymus (Feb 3, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> What a useful and productive comment to make. Well done 👍


 Thanks.

The idea that someone would suggest purchasing a mignon for single dosing based on a flawed test is obviously very useful to someone with limited knowledge.

I could run two shots of pre-ground supermarket filter coffee through an espresso machine and find no difference in shot times. Does that mean I should recommend it?

Not sure how having a separate steam boiler would help achieve good and consistent shots either. But obviously being new to a forum disqualifies me from disputing unsound recommendations.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> What a useful and productive comment to make. Well done 👍
> 
> It doesn't take away from the fact that both good and consistent shots are more achievable and repeatable on a DB vs. a SBDU with no PID, for example.
> 
> An ideal scenario for the OP would be to have some hands on time with a cheaper machine to *determine if the hobby is worth his while and whether the benefits of a better machine is worth the investment. *Personally it didn't take me too long to reach this conclusion. Unfortunately you don't tend to realise it until you experience it for yourself.


 To me there's little doubt that the better machine is worth the investment, it's the former bit that I'm still unsure of. I've have plenty of good espresso in Italy and I loved it, so cearly I like coffee but I can be fine with basic stuff, since I've been abroad for more than 8 years now and I've felt no need to fill this espresso-shaped hole in my life.

Even if I get a Gaggia it's hardly going to be some revealing experience, I've had already hundreds of cups of excellently made stuff in Naples.

That said I'm not commenting on expensive machines anymore as I've mentioned but similar points apply there


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

consuming != producing 😛


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Hieronymus said:


> Not sure how having a separate steam boiler would help achieve good and consistent shots either. But obviously being new to a forum disqualifies me from disputing unsound recommendations.


 Does it not mean you have a dedicated brew boiler with PID to maintain stable temps shot after shot. Especially important if you intend to brew and steam and want to save time. There is enough information on this thread provided by those far more experienced than I am which should allow the OP to make an informed decision; at least as much as is possible without having hands on experience.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> To me there's little doubt that the better machine is worth the investment, it's the former bit that I'm still unsure of. I've have plenty of good espresso in Italy and I loved it, so cearly I like coffee but I can be fine with basic stuff, since I've been abroad for more than 8 years now and I've felt no need to fill this espresso-shaped hole in my life.


 Then again you mention you're nerdy and suffer from upgradeitus - at some point only you can decide what's best for you 😄



Baffo said:


> Even if I get a Gaggia it's hardly going to be some revealing experience, I've had already hundreds of cups of excellently made stuff in Naples


 It will be a revealing experience in making espresso not drinking it. Maybe even drinking it too as initially it most likely will not live up to your expectations or memories from Naples 😄


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## Hieronymus (Feb 3, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> Does it not mean you have a dedicated brew boiler with PID to maintain stable temps shot after shot. Especially important if you intend to brew and steam and want to save time.


 You are correct the key component to temperature control is the PID. However, this can also be available in single boiler models

To me being able to change the brew temperature is a critical factor in being able to control extraction. Otherwise you are limited to changing dose ratio and grind size.

If budget was a limitation I would choose a single boiler machine with a PID. Having to wait longer to steam is a minor inconvenience, having no control over brew temperature is a big limitation.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Hieronymus said:


> You are correct the key component to temperature control is the PID. However, this can also be available in single boiler models
> 
> To me being able to change the brew temperature is a critical factor in being able to control extraction. Otherwise you are limited to changing dose ratio and grind size.
> 
> If budget was a limitation I would choose a single boiler machine with a PID. Having to wait longer to steam is a minor inconvenience, having no control over brew temperature is a big limitation.


 Yes we are aware a PID is available on single boiler units, it has been highlighted many times on this thread. As mentioned with SBDUs there are compromises in time and "faff" which the OP is trying to minimise, unfortunately without yet having practical experience of what this entails.

A DB machine was recommended to maintain temperature stability and control but also reduce time spent "faffing", waiting for the boiler to increase in temp for steaming, refilling the boiler after steaming etc. There is also flexibility to make consecutive milk based drinks in quick succession with no wait time. A new buyer can decide how important this is to them based on drinking habits and budget.

For me personally the upgrade to a DB machine was most definitely worth the additional cost with no sacrifice of temperature stability, control or time. An HX like the MaraX may be a reasonable compromise for some, or even a "normal" HX with PID.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Just a quick one, having also spent lots of time in Italy, the espresso you'll get from a Gaggia classic and Mignon will be better. You'll be drinking coffee of a much higher standard than that served in Italian cafes. I've followed this thread from the start but unsure what the issue is now, are you still balancing faff(bingo!) And cost?


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> Then again you mention you're nerdy and suffer from upgradeitus - at some point only you can decide what's best for you 😄
> 
> It will be a revealing experience in making espresso not drinking it. Maybe even drinking it too as initially it most likely will not live up to your expectations or memories from Naples 😄


 Ha, yes. And the problem with being nerdy is that the honeymoon phase ends. Once I've researched and learned, once I've bought the equipment, once I've tried a good variety of beans, at least part of the initial excitement vanishes and to some extent the hobby becomes a routine. Hence why I said I'm only concerned about the longevity of this.

Being unsure about this is just a reflection of being BOTH a cheapskate and a nerd with a decent disposable income, part of me wants the good equipment and part of me says it's better to take it slowly.

But we're getting philosophical here. I feel like the more I explain myself the less I am understood 😅



KTD said:


> Just a quick one, having also spent lots of time in Italy, the espresso you'll get from a Gaggia classic and Mignon will be better. You'll be drinking coffee of a much higher standard than that served in Italian cafes. I've followed this thread from the start but unsure what the issue is now, are you still balancing faff(bingo!) And cost?


 OK this is interesting, I naively thought that espresso in Naples (which is not quite akin to say Italy) was of a great standard. Having tried brown watery lemonade in some UK cafes reinforced this belief I guess (other than the roast being different, the consistency has never been good enough).

I'm genuinely not having issues to solve, as I've explained above I'll keep my elucubrations about expensive machines private cause honestly it's become a bit of a pain to share stuff 😅

I have a shortlist of machines from GC to others that are more expensive, I'll see what happens at some point in the future which could be next week or in two months, I haven't a clear deadline in mind.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

Today a Gaggia popped up on FB for 70 quid, unused. Contacted the seller 34m after the ad was on.. Too late.


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

nm that, look at what was managed with a simple post in the Wanted forum!

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/57771-sold-gaggia-classic-2008-opv-mod-pid/?do=embed


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

@facboy yep just done the same myself without even seeing your post, I didn't think it would have worked like that (or maybe the user was lucky?)

I mean if anybody with a good heart has a unit ill gladly take it, but if I have to fork out excessive money I'll have to look elsewhere..


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## facboy (Dec 13, 2019)

good luck! as they say, you don't ask, you don't get.


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

A quick question - I might as well ask here, since it's sort of related.

Regardless of whether I get a £300 or £30000 machine, shall I assume that the baskets and potentially the shower screen are to be changed to get decent results (or anyway, I would see a benefit from doing so)?

If yes, I suppose IMS Gaggia/E61 Competition is a good choice (16-20mm or 16-22mm depending on the group head of the machine in question)? I read they are more forgiving on puck prep.

How many should I buy, is there any point in having more than one, and considering that I want to explore different roasts and also decaf, is there any point in having different sizes or is there a specific one better suited for bottomless pf? I'm very happy to get just one - only checking if I need more than that.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

@BaffoSomething to keep an eye on:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/57989-gaggia-classic-2013-pid-opv-set-to-9bar-silvia-steam-wand-original-bottomless-portafilter-motta-tamper-original-low-profile-drip-trays/?do=embed


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> @BaffoSomething to keep an eye on:
> 
> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/57989-gaggia-classic-2013-pid-opv-set-to-9bar-silvia-steam-wand-original-bottomless-portafilter-motta-tamper-original-low-profile-drip-trays/?do=embed


 Thanks for this. However, I believe common sense has already escaped me. 🤔


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> Thanks for this. However, I believe common sense has already escaped me. 🤔


 You've ordered a Decent Espresso machine? All the variables...


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

one baskets usually enough, the screen is a debate as to wether youll even notice a difference


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> You've ordered a Decent Espresso machine? All the variables...


 🤣 No, but that would be great!


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Baffo said:


> 🤣 No, but that would be great!


 😂 So where has your escaped common sense led you to now?


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## Baffo (Jan 23, 2021)

HVL87 said:


> 😂 So where has your escaped common sense led you to now?


 I think I've decided, but it's still an ongoing process. I've been sending an awful lot of private messages and emails around to figure things out, and received a great deal of clarification! Once it's all set in stone, we'll see.

Mostly, I've used lessons learned from my old grinder selection thread and learned to listen to myself first.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Usually this sort of thread needs a budget. Main problem is that good coffee in fact excellent coffee in the eyes of the drinker can be produced by just about all machines. A bean in one machine might differ taste wise in another. Some one might buy a Povoni Lever. They are likely to take a long time to achieve consistency with it. Buy a Gaggia Classic Dacia and fit it with Porsche seats. Single boiler dual use is something of a pain if some one wants to make several milk based drinks, or even one really. At the other end of the scale buy a Vesuvius. Fair number of setting to play with but can be descaled fairly easily. Not true of a number of machines. What settings to use. That is even a bit of a problem on a Sage DB. Heat up times vary considerably. Some will steam milk much more quickly than others but I've found faster to be a bit more difficult to use and the machine wouldn't match some others. Do you want to make a drinks with button pushes. Best for that is a true volumetric machine. Do you ever get good coffee drinking out?  A certain Starbucks surprised me pre lockdown. Very probably an HX machine and not E61. If it can do it with one bean it could do it with others. I sometime drink at other places that make a good americano. Main complaint from me would often be lack of strength but they are for the general public. I have had good coffee out of a Pavoni lever from a local cafe. Wonder how long he had been using it and it took longer to arrive than usual. Most of his customers drank tea.

I've had good coffee out of a Picino. No temperature surfing light just a set procedure to produce one or more drinks. Perhaps it's output lacks some subtly but that's about it really.

Price - how much does the machine add per cup. Curiosity and upgraditus often limits how long people keep machines. Some change at times because essentially they haven't mastered using them. If some one asked me why after a period of time I never had channelling I couldn't tell them.  God shots. Well same ratio, same beans, same everything sometimes they crop up. Why? No clear idea really. I keep working at it and results get more even and there isn't much difference now. It could just be down to the last meal I ate.


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