# Varying water ratio instead of grind size or time for pourover?



## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Wanting a simple process at work, I've found myself giving up on caring too much chasing an intended brew time or adjusting grind for pourover (V60 or Kalita Wave) for each new coffee. I just leave the Feldfarb set to the same grind setting (2.5 turns), use the same weight of coffee each time but very the amount of water poured, until i find a ratio that suits each coffee at that same grind setting. This might be anywhere between 1:12 or 1:17 but I can generally get a pretty tasty, fruity and sweet cup out of the light- and medium-roast coffees I try.

If i don't worry about the exact length of the drink I'm making, is there any downside to this method, something that I might be missing out on if I paid more attention to the target time and changed the grind settings to keep the weight of the final brew consistent?

I don't have the equipment to measure my extractions yet, I'm afraid.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

Chances are you are making drinks with both different strength (TDS) and extraction. At the same grind size, short ratio will be producing higher strength/lower extraction and long ratio will give you lower strength/higher extraction.

Not necessarily a bad thing if you're enjoying your drinks. Varying grind size would allow you to hit both a preferred strength AND extraction, but without a refractometer it is of course harder (but not impossible) to achieve this


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Changing grind size does not automatically increase percentage of coffee solubles that end up in the cup. I've had plenty of beans that, no matter how fine I went with the grind, did not increase the TDS (total of dissolved solids) and increase overall extraction yields.


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## fluffles (Sep 4, 2012)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Changing grind size does not automatically increase percentage of coffee solubles that end up in the cup. I've had plenty of beans that, no matter how fine I went with the grind, did not increase the TDS (total of dissolved solids) and increase overall extraction yields.


For pourover that sounds very odd


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I'd suggest that your pour regime can have a huge impact on strength and extraction. E.g a single pour will be considerably weaker than multiple pours often by a substantial amount and more than a slight tweak of the grind.

Keep brew ratio and grind the same, vary the pour. Use taste to decide how to vary the pours.

Occasionally you'll get the odd difficult to extract coffee. Often immersion will work well with these instead.


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Interesting, thanks all!

For the pour method, after trying a few things (continuous through to fast pulses, and different levels of agitation), I'd settled into a habit of bloom (quick stir with mini whisk) then two long pulse pours (concentric circles) and a quick final stir before it drains down. That seems to work pretty well for most coffees I've tried. But maybe i should try a few different pour approaches when I get a new coffee to try then.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

fluffles said:


> For pourover that sounds very odd


Not really. Beans can vary quite widely in respect of how easily they give up their dissolvable solids. I've had beans that, no matter how I varied the grind, did not exceed 18-19% extraction yield for pour over. Of course, roast profile will also play a role.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

If you're just looking to make a representative cup of coffee (not dial in a specific %EY to less than +/-0.5% of a constant target for every cup of coffee, for which the benefits of doing this are not clear to me anyway), from a range of beans, you shouldn't need to be altering grind, nor brew ratio, on a regular basis. Manual drip isn't as fussy as espresso in this respect.

You mention 2 pours after the bloom. This will work for V60, or for Kalita Wave, but not for both as the Kalita Wave drains more slowly at the same parameters compared to the V60.

Assuming a 30sec bloom with 1.5 to 2x the coffee dose weight, stir to wet (with a teaspoon for V60, how are you getting deep into the bed with the mini whisk?), my average for 1 cup brews (13.5g coffee:225g brew water) in a V60 is 3:10 (+/-15sec) until dry bed, then leave 40-60sec for drips to stop. For Kalita wave it's 3:00 (+/-15sec). To achieve this I dial in the time using 6 pours of 35g every 20sec with V60, the second pour is 50g when completed, next pour is 85g & so on, each pour takes ~10sec.

With the Kalita 185 with wire "Y" in the base, I use 3 pours of 70g each(1st pour after bloom totals 85g), spaced 40sec apart. If the Kalita brews end overly strong & drying/smokey, then I switch to 2 pours of 100g each 50sec apart (these brews may end a little quicker). If they end weak & lacking sweetness, I might stretch out the brew to 4 pours of 50g every 30sec. Each pour takes about half as long as pause between them.

Brew water should be dropping straight down from the gooseneck kettle spout as much as possible, you're not hosing down the bed. Give the brewer a stir at the surface, or a gentle swirl, after the last addition of water.

Water is boiling or literally right off the boil & still can be felt rolling at bloom

These methods assume the same grind setting for both brewers, light & medium roast coffees, of which the vast majority will turn out OK, there will be the odd, rare outlier.


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## tdfg7583 (Nov 16, 2016)

Great detail and lots for me to experiment with there, thanks! I hadn't really explored the relationship between strength and the length/number of pours enough yet, perhaps, i was just making the drinks longer or shorter to address perceived sourness or astringency. I'll have a play with some more variables.

On the question of the whisk, it's the type with two crossed wire hoops, about 6cm long. It seems quite good at stirring down into the bed. I use it as I figured that, having less metal, it might have a smaller impact on the temperature of the bed than a small spoon.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

@MWJB do you pour using a temperature controlled kettle? Is the brewing temperature affected by spacing and dividing up pours and does it have an impact on extraction?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

I don't use a temperature controlled kettle, I don't see the point - boiling is a pretty good datum. If you think the water is too hot leave a little more time from the boil to pouring, if you use a similar amount of water each time the temperature will drop predictably.

If temperature drop was having an adverse effect then brews would turn out sour & they don't (I dislike sour coffee).

Extraction is typically around 0.4%EY Sdev over 10 brews with the same coffee, averages are 19.93% & 20.75% EY for the 2 sets of 10x Kalita Wave with AP shower screen brews I have done so far. This is pretty consistent in terms of extraction. V60 with 6 pours direct from the gooseneck, as described earlier, 0.34% EY Sdev with the same coffee, x10 brews.

Temperature is something I would look at if your cups were defective in the same way across a range of coffees, but not something I'd concern myself with from brew to brew.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Really fascinating, thank you once again. I pour my water from the electric kettle into my pourover kettle as soon as it finishes boiling (after the kettle clicks) and try to start ASAP so I hope this is consistent.



MWJB said:


> I don't use a temperature controlled kettle, I don't see the point - boiling is a pretty good datum. If you think the water is too hot leave a little more time from the boil to pouring, if you use a similar amount of water each time the temperature will drop predictably.
> 
> If temperature drop was having an adverse effect then brews would turn out sour & they don't (I dislike sour coffee).
> 
> ...


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Would dry and smokiness be symptoms of overextraction or roast level or both?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Elcee said:


> Would dry and smokiness be symptoms of overextraction or roast level or both?


If the smokiness only happens at long brew times, or fine grinds & going finer or longer doesn't help, then it's likely over-extraction. Roast level would likely be bitter/dry/intense/lacking sweetness at all extractions, you wouldn't be able to shake it.

Be aware that just before you get to the big hump in extraction, coffee can go from bright & interesting to flat, drier, carbony, lacking in sweetness (can be mistaken for "roasty" flavours)...then if you push further sweetness can build again before going ashy/smoky & terminal over-extraction.

I suspect a lot of folk back off at the first sign of bitterness/dryness, assuming over-extraction...then often miss out on really sweet & juicy extractions. Personally, I'd rather have a cup that is mainly sweet & juicy, then maybe falters in the last sip or two, than one that never got far enough to hit high sweetness at all.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

The dry smokiness and more carbony flavours is something I'm getting in a recent purchase of a bag. It is supposed to be fruity and acidic as it is a washed African coffee. I've tried varying both the grind and number of pours to try increasing and decreasing extraction but those negative flavours seem ever present.

Some coffees seem to be so easy to get tasty results but I just can't get this one. Personally, I am very reluctant to blame the beans as this assumes it isn't something I'm doing wrong. It is one of those cases where I wish I could try a good brew of it so I know what is possible.



MWJB said:


> If the smokiness only happens at long brew times, or fine grinds & going finer or longer doesn't help, then it's likely over-extraction. Roast level would likely be bitter/dry/intense/lacking sweetness at all extractions, you wouldn't be able to shake it.
> 
> Be aware that just before you get to the big hump in extraction, coffee can go from bright & interesting to flat, drier, carbony, lacking in sweetness (can be mistaken for "roasty" flavours)...then if you push further sweetness can build again before going ashy/smoky & terminal over-extraction.
> 
> I suspect a lot of folk back off at the first sign of bitterness/dryness, assuming over-extraction...then often miss out on really sweet & juicy extractions. Personally, I'd rather have a cup that is mainly sweet & juicy, then maybe falters in the last sip or two, than one that never got far enough to hit high sweetness at all.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Elcee said:


> The dry smokiness and more carbony flavours is something I'm getting in a recent purchase of a bag. It is supposed to be fruity and acidic as it is a washed African coffee. I've tried varying both the grind and number of pours to try increasing and decreasing extraction but those negative flavours seem ever present.
> 
> Some coffees seem to be so easy to get tasty results but I just can't get this one. Personally, I am very reluctant to blame the beans as this assumes it isn't something I'm doing wrong. It is one of those cases where I wish I could try a good brew of it so I know what is possible.


What's the coffee and how are you brewing it? Some African coffees can be very soluble. How would you describe the difference in taste between 1 pour and several - what changes tastewise?


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

It is a washed Rwandan coffee which has been roasted for filter. Notes are blackcurrant, mandarin and dates

Grinder is a Feldgrind. I am brewing it using the Kalita #185 using 60 grams per litre and a dose of 20.4 grams for 340 ml of water. 50 gram bloom for 30 seconds with a stir/dig using a whisk.

With several pours and/or finer grind the brew times have been 3 to 3.5 minutes. It has tasted more smokey/roasty and a touch gassy (if you know what I mean). Little fruit or acidity, much more like dates and biscuits.

With 1 pour and/or coarser grind, its lighter, less smokey, getting some acidity. Best result was a coarser grind, 1 pour, 2 min 30 sec total draw down time. The fruit was a bit more noticeable when it was lukewarm.



Step21 said:


> What's the coffee and how are you brewing it? Some African coffees can be very soluble. How would you describe the difference in taste between 1 pour and several - what changes tastewise?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Elcee said:


> It is a washed Rwandan coffee which has been roasted for filter. Notes are blackcurrant, mandarin and dates
> 
> Grinder is a Feldgrind. I am brewing it using the Kalita #185 using 60 grams per litre and a dose of 20.4 grams for 340 ml of water. 50 gram bloom for 30 seconds with a stir/dig using a whisk.
> 
> ...


Can't help feeling you brews are a tad on the fast side? What happens when you get nearer to 4min?


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Can't help feeling you brews are a tad on the fast side? What happens when you get nearer to 4min?


I tried two more brew attempts.

1. Finer grind, 3 equal pours after the bloom, ~3 min 40 sec total draw down time. It tasted roasty/carbony, flat and muted and a hint of some fruit.

2. Coarser grind, french press (similar to James Hoffman's method). Stirred to break crust at 4 mins, total brew time 10 mins. Flat and muted like someone squeezed a few drops of lemon juice in mineral water.

Not really sure what I'm doing wrong.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

Elcee said:


> I tried two more brew attempts.
> 
> 1. Finer grind, 3 equal pours after the bloom, ~3 min 40 sec total draw down time. It tasted roasty/carbony, flat and muted and a hint of some fruit.
> 
> ...


With FP, try a finer grind than Kalita, maybe 1+8 on Feldgrind? What setting are using?

And break crust, skim off foam at 4min, and cover and let it stay at least 10 minutes more.

What water are you using?


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

the_partisan said:


> With FP, try a finer grind than Kalita, maybe 1+8 on Feldgrind? What setting are using?
> 
> And break crust, skim off foam at 4min, and cover and let it stay at least 10 minutes more.
> 
> What water are you using?


I used 2.10 for that kalita brew and 3.4 for the French press. This Feldgrind seems to grind finer on a given setting compared to my other one.

I forgot to mention I did skim the foam. I'll try brewing for longer next time.

I'm using Edinburgh tap water. I heard and checked that it is pretty soft. People I've spoken to say it's decent for brewing. I realise this may not actually be the case though. I've had excellent brews with it but that doesn't mean it would be good for all coffee?

Thanks for all the advice everyone. It's frustrating to struggle with a coffee but the process of learning is valuable in its own right


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Posh Embra water then!

I'd also go finer for the kalita maybe another couple of notches? Try to get the brew a bit longer yet.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Step21 said:


> Posh Embra water then!
> 
> I'd also go finer for the kalita maybe another couple of notches? Try to get the brew a bit longer yet.


Is that a nudge to buy bottled water?









4 minutes on a kalita wave seems pretty long and I'd have to grind pretty fine and pulse pour. Maybe I'm being too restricted by recipes I've seen/read. Usually when I start going above 3 minutes it begins to venture into what I think is overextracted territory. Perhaps its the double hump? How would one differentiate that from legitamately overextracted coffee?


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## hippy_dude (Sep 22, 2015)

Just a suggestion, have you tried other recipes, I've had great chips from one coffee on one and terrible with the same on another and visa versa with different coffee. I've been using the mister Batista app on android recently for a buy the book way to follow different recipes; even including world brewer champions' recipes.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

hippy_dude said:


> Just a suggestion, have you tried other recipes, I've had great chips from one coffee on one and terrible with the same on another and visa versa with different coffee. I've been using the mister Batista app on android recently for a buy the book way to follow different recipes; even including world brewer champions' recipes.


I've tried different pouring methods such as continuous and pulse pours(2, 3 and 4 pours) but not really different dosages.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Elcee said:


> Is that a nudge to buy bottled water?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Brew time increases with brew size, until flow rate needs to increase to stop over-extraction and you start to hit a wall (maybe a 20:330 brew might end up a similar time as a 40:660 brew). My brews of 13.5:225g take around 3:00 average, some nearer 3:30, one was a mid box extraction at 3:47. Note that I'm only getting 188g in the cup. You should be getting nearer 285g in the cup, but the flow rate is not likely to increase enough to give you & I the same brew times, 3:30 is more like a fast, but feasible, time that I'd expect for 20.4g:340g up to maybe 4:20? Can't be sure as I don't brew those amounts often.

The trouble with perceived over-extraction is that people are told it causes "bitterness", but there are different kinds of bitterness, with different causes. You mentioned roasty, carbony tastes - these don't immediately suggest over-extraction to me, more like a flat spot between exaggerated acidity & the big sweet, ripe hump.

Terminal over-extraction might still have some sweetness if you don't get too far, maybe slightly sickly/caramelly (in the aroma too) rather than clean sweetness, dryness like smoke, bitterness like quinine/bitter beer. You may get a little pithy bitterness in the first sips of any cup, but I mostly notice over-extraction in the latter stages of drinking a cup, assuming that there was something good in the middle.

Some really good cups have been around, or a shade over, 22% (technically bordering on over-extraction).


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> Brew time increases with brew size, until flow rate needs to increase to stop over-extraction and you start to hit a wall (maybe a 20:330 brew might end up a similar time as a 40:660 brew). My brews of 13.5:225g take around 3:00 average, some nearer 3:30, one was a mid box extraction at 3:47. Note that I'm only getting 188g in the cup. You should be getting nearer 285g in the cup, but the flow rate is not likely to increase enough to give you & I the same brew times, 3:30 is more like a fast, but feasible, time that I'd expect for 20.4g:340g up to maybe 4:20? Can't be sure as I don't brew those amounts often.
> 
> The trouble with perceived over-extraction is that people are told it causes "bitterness", but there are different kinds of bitterness, with different causes. You mentioned roasty, carbony tastes - these don't immediately suggest over-extraction to me, more like a flat spot between exaggerated acidity & the big sweet, ripe hump.
> 
> ...


Are you aiming at %1.45-%1.5 TDS then? I seem to have got my best results at 1.35-1.4 range, have not tried to push it towards 1.5, using the same brew ratio as yours. Also, is this with sifted grinds?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

the_partisan said:


> Are you aiming at %1.45-%1.5 TDS then? I seem to have got my best results at 1.35-1.4 range, have not tried to push it towards 1.5, using the same brew ratio as yours. Also, is this with sifted grinds?


I'm aiming about 21%, but getting more like 20.5%EY average. I don't adjust anything based on %TDS alone because it will vary depending on brewer for a given brew ratio & by a range of ~0.15% for brews in the same brewer. For V60 with a shade more brew in the cup the strength will drop for the same EY, for my large Chemex brews it'll drop again. Maybe it's just me but I can't tell much from %TDS, I have had cups at 1.5% that didn't seem as 'strong' as some at 1.25%. Roast can affect intensity more than TDS (just had a cup of a more subtle coffee at 1.41% that felt more like 1.15%), mouthfeel is more down to the solids getting into the cup than the dissolved content.

TDS is only the mechanism for calculating the EY, it's not an answer in itself.


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Elcee;486207 said:


> https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/uploads/emoticons/wink.png.ec0da91ed6be61eac47b026a1189c21c.png[/IMG]
> 
> 4 minutes on a kalita wave seems pretty long and I'd have to grind pretty fine and pulse pour. Maybe I'm being too restricted by recipes I've seen/read. Usually when I start going above 3 minutes it begins to venture into what I think is overextracted territory. Perhaps its the double hump? How would one differentiate that from legitamately overextracted coffee?
> 
> ...


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I think that with a good technique you can get away with a wide range of extractions.

Recently I've had really sweet cups at 0.98 and 1.43%. For sure, the 0.98% lacked body but it was really sweet (prob around 17% EY and the 1.43% had body and sweetness at almost 23% EY). I wasn't aiming for anything particular, just tasty!

Generally with V60/wave 1.25 - 1.35 and 20.5%EY is mostly where I end up.


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

MWJB said:


> I'm aiming about 21%, but getting more like 20.5%EY average. I don't adjust anything based on %TDS alone because it will vary depending on brewer for a given brew ratio & by a range of ~0.15% for brews in the same brewer. For V60 with a shade more brew in the cup the strength will drop for the same EY, for my large Chemex brews it'll drop again. Maybe it's just me but I can't tell much from %TDS, I have had cups at 1.5% that didn't seem as 'strong' as some at 1.25%. Roast can affect intensity more than TDS (just had a cup of a more subtle coffee at 1.41% that felt more like 1.15%), mouthfeel is more down to the solids getting into the cup than the dissolved content.
> 
> TDS is only the mechanism for calculating the EY, it's not an answer in itself.


With Kalita, the beverage amount is quite consistent for me : for 15g/250g, I get almost always 211g or 212g out. As you say, V60 leaves a bit more in the cup. With the Kalita, the TDS would need to be above 1.44 to hit 21%. You have a point about TDS not being the only indicator.. FP brews have typically a lot lower TDS for some EY, like 1.2% but definitely have more of a mouthfeel.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

So I tried 3 brews today using 21 grams to 350 ml water to try and trying to push towards a 4 min brew time.

Brew 1: 2.10 on Feldgrind. 50 g bloom for 30 seconds then 3 pours of 100 ml at 40 second intervals. 3 min 40 brew time. Tasted pretty nice, decent fruity flavours.

Brew 2: 2.4 on Feldgrind, 50 g bloom for 30 seconds then 4 pours of 75 ml at 30 second intervals. 4 min 20 brew time. Brew bed was silty with lots grounds built up on the side. Tasted terrible. Overwhelming and astringent. Threw it away after drinking a quarter of it.

Brew 3: 2.10 on Feldgrind, 50 g bloom for 30 seconds. 4 pours of 75 ml at 30 second intervals. 4 min 25 brew time. Kinda nice. Caramelly and a bit orangey. Bit cloying on finish.








Not going well. At this point I think I just need to do something totally idiot proof.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What was wrong with brew one?


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

@MWJB, for 21% extraction, do you sift and/or use your shower method?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

@the_partisan 21% +/-1% is my regular target, without sifting (narrows distribution so should allow higher EY) and either with/without shower method (hasn't made an obvious difference to EY target).


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

MWJB said:


> What was wrong with brew one?


It was okay but not that sweet. I really have no idea what I'm doing so it's no surprise I'm getting bad results.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Elcee said:


> It was okay but not that sweet. I really have no idea what I'm doing so it's no surprise I'm getting bad results.


OK, so brew 1 looks like a good starting place, so how about going slightly finer & trying again. Make a few identical brews & note times for each, before changing anything.

You have 45-50sec between shortest & longest brews, you should be able to stretch out the brew time in smaller increments than that with the same coffee.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

MWJB said:


> OK, so brew 1 looks like a good starting place, so how about going slightly finer & trying again. Make a few identical brews & note times for each, before changing anything.
> 
> You have 45-50sec between shortest & longest brews, you should be able to stretch out the brew time in smaller increments than that with the same coffee.


By stretching out do you mean I should increase the time in between those 3 pours?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Yes, you could do that & see if that helped at your current 2.10 grind setting, maybe try 50 or 55sec intervals for 3 pours? You might see the first pour drain out from above, but you may not need to grind finer unless the liquid stops dripping from brewer to cup in the intervals? There's not really any technical reason to worry about the brewer draining out/stopping dripping between pours, I just prefer it not to so I (& my psychosis) feel my timings are tidier/more repeatable


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Yes, you could do that & see if that helped at your current 2.10 grind setting, maybe try 50 or 55sec intervals for 3 pours? You might see the first pour drain out from above, but you may not need to grind finer unless the liquid stops dripping from brewer to cup in the intervals? There's not really any technical reason to worry about the brewer draining out/stopping dripping between pours, I just prefer it not to so I (& my psychosis) feel my timings are tidier/more repeatable


 I did two more brews with the same dose of 21 grams of coffee and 350 ml of water on the 2.10 setting.

Brew 1: 30 sec bloom with 50 grams then three 100 ml pours at 50 second intervals, brew time 4 mins 5 seconds. This tasted quite smooth and a bit sweet. Flavours of orange, caramel and toast. Quite drying and maybe bitter as it cooled.

Brew 2: 30 sec bloom with 50 grams then three 100 ml pours at 40 second intervals, brew time 3 mins 45 seconds. This tasted similar, a bit smoother and maybe sweeter. Similar flavours, still quite drying and not acidic.

I'm not sure if my descriptions of what I taste are accurate. I think they were overextracted but I'm not sure anymore. It just doesn't seem to be that complex or fruity.

Here are two pics of the grounds and brew bed. Its flat but so much fines up the sides. I trying to pour gently and swirl at the end.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Finished brew doesn't look out of the ordinary in terms of the filter walls.

Try a few brews at the same regime, before changing things, there will be some natural variation. At the moment you are taking snapshots, one of an elephant's behind, the next of it's trunk, the next of it's back. If you change things from one brew to the next, you will continue doing so forever.

If it tastes orangey it must have some citric acidity & fruitiness? Beverage coffee is acidic, always, largely made up of a bunch of weak acids.

What to the notes on the bag say?


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Finished brew doesn't look out of the ordinary in terms of the filter walls.
> 
> Try a few brews at the same regime, before changing things, there will be some natural variation. At the moment you are taking snapshots, one of an elephant's behind, the next of it's trunk, the next of it's back. If you change things from one brew to the next, you will continue doing so forever.
> 
> ...


 Ha, great analogy. I agree that by changing variables too frequently I am not building up an appropriate sample size of one particular set of variables. Here is what the bag says:


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