# Barista Express, on the verge of returning it. Should I?



## dm2583 (Nov 29, 2017)

Hi guys, new member here!

So i've been using a nespresso machine for the last few years and thought it was time to take my coffee experience to the next level, so i bought myself a Barista express after researching for a long time. I can tell its a good machine but I'm really not getting along with it.

I'm wasting so much coffee trying to get the blasted pressure needle in the 12 o'clock position and everything I try doesn't seem to help! I'm always under extracting or over extracting. Not to mention the mess the machine makes.

So now I'm thinking of returning it and replacing it with a bean to cup machine that takes all the coffee dosage and tamping and mess out of the equation. Should I persevere with my BE or admit its not for me?

I've been using Rave coffee's signature blend beans which are fresh as Rave are based 2 mins from me, grinder setting around 12, grind amount set to approx 2pm and i put a decent amount of weight into my tamp. I also use the Razor to ensure a consistent level of coffee.

Where am i going wrong?!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Bean to cup machines are a compromise - offer convenience but can't match what can be provided by an espresso machine/grinder combination. With the latter, you do have the downside of an initial steepish learning curve but the effort is matched by the results in the cup which is why bean to cup machines don't figure much on this forum.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Oh, and if you can return the Barista Express for a full refund - recommend you do so.


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## dm2583 (Nov 29, 2017)

I really want to persevere with it and become more skilled but right now I can't see any light at the end of the tunnel. Hence my asking for any tips people may have which could help


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

how long a window do you have to return it in? Fastest solution would be to say where you are in the country, and have a session of home training with a suitable barista. there are a few who do this on the forum


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> how long a window do you have to return it in? Fastest solution would be to say where you are in the country, and have a session of home training with a suitable barista. there are a few who do this on the forum


Good idea this,

Alternatively as Rave are 2 mins from you how about enquiring if they still offer this:

https://ravecoffee.co.uk/products/home-barista-skills


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## dm2583 (Nov 29, 2017)

I'm based in Cirencester, Gloucestershire. I think some training sounds like a great idea.


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## dm2583 (Nov 29, 2017)

I will definitely enquire about this, thanks!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Personally I reckon that the BE is a decent machine however I feel that all of the "rules" that are kicking about can be a bit misleading. They aren't what might be called high precision machines. Yours differs to many other as well.It has a timed shot for one, infusion for another. In a odd sort of way it's a pretty sophisticated piece of kit compared with many.

With timed shots the actual output will vary a bit. Running a shot on other machines can mean running 30ml or running it for a certain time.

If you look at the pressure gauge you will notice that it shows a range of pressures suitable for espresso - that means espresso's, americano, long black and milk based. All that the Sage manual provides is starting points. Set grinder to 8, grind some beans, fill the basket as they indicate run a shot and see what happens. One thing to note is that when the pump starts to run it's fairly slow and later speeds up. The pressure gauge indicates that this is happening. It may initially show a low pressure and then go to the max that the grind, fill and beans can provide. One thing that I feel is extremely important is that the flow from the portafilter doesn't start as soon as the pump starts. Grind finer until the pre infusion time shows some pressure. You'll find that "taste" increases as the infusion pressure goes up. The peak pressure will also increase - maybe even past the espresso range shown on the dial. So what - if this produces the taste you want that's fine. With the bean I am currently using the infusion pressure is at about 8 o'clock, peak pressure a bit past the espresso range shown on the dial. Differing beans may need different settings. If you grind too fine the machine will stall during the high pressure stage or maybe even sooner or drips just come out of the portafilter.

The other aspect that crops up is coffee in to espresso out ratio's. You really need scales to measure that. Typical ratios for some long drinks might be circa 1 to 2. That for instance might be 9g of coffee in an 18g of fluid out using the single basket. Timed shots on the machine so the 18g will vary a bit but that will be masked by all of the extra fluid that is added for long drinks. My shots for instance finish up in around 320ml of water unless I am messing with espresso's where I would be looking for 30ml out. That might mean extending the shot duration / changing the shot time or even terminating a shot manually.

I'm using strong beans. Some beans may need the double basket so in practice some one might still aim for 20ml output or any other output that produces a suitable drink.

There are only 2 problems with these machines really. One is an extremely poor range of basket sizes the other is grinder step settings - a change of one step may be too big to achieve the taste that is required. It might even cause the machine to stall. The main one is basket sizes - that will limit the types of beans that can be used. Take me for instance 400ml mugs which is actually a pretty standard size these days. I mostly use the singe basket so am stuck with stronger beans. If I switch to the double the converse will happen - nvg as I tend to like dark roasts. I'm currently using a bean that would benefit from a slightly smaller basket.

Tamping can be a pain. What I do is strain slightly. Turns out to be a bit over 20kg tested on scales -







To get round basket size problems with the bean I am currently using I'm really leaning on it, both hands. Turns out to be about 30kg+ and has the same effect as grinding a bit finer without stalling the machine. This is not good practice but better than throwing the beans away.

The other thing people who are new to this need to realise is that the various beans that are available vary and are likely to give different tastes and need different settings.

I would also suggest preheating the portafilter and basket by running a double shot through it empty before running any real shot through it. I use the pressurised dual wall single for that as it gets it all really hot. Both methods will change the taste from just firing the machine up and running an actual shot.

You could also try some say Lavazza preground in the double wall baskets. We had some to use up when we bought the machine. You'd probably find that the single a little weak for 400ml drinks and the double too big. The double may be ok for milk based. Milk based generally needs even stronger shots - the double might achieve that. The single wall double seems to allow finer grinding that the single so with suitable beans can probably produce 2 milk based drinks at the same time.

One thing that wont help is putting too much coffee in the baskets - there must be some room for it to expand especially during the infusion stage. The razor tool is a decent approximation that will achieve that but retamp if it removes any coffee. Latter it's better to use scales and also the look of the puck left in the portafilter.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

dm2583 said:


> I'm based in Cirencester, Gloucestershire. I think some training sounds like a great idea.


This service is likely to be more suitable for training. It should provide some one who is accustomed to their machines. They really are different to many others.

https://sageappliances.co.uk/pages/white-glove-service

According to how much you drink I would also request either 250 or 500g of the beans they use. It might ease your passage to others.

I should have said that espresso machines aren't exactly a precision item - not sort of implied that just applied to Sage. In some ways they are more precise than some others.

John

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

ajohn said:


> This service is likely to be more suitable for training. It should provide some one who is accustomed to their machines. They really are different to many others.
> 
> https://sageappliances.co.uk/pages/white-glove-service
> 
> ...


white gloves is only for db owners.....and all they do is show you how to get around the machines shortcomings. they do not weigh in, out or anything else


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dm2583 said:


> Hi guys, new member here!
> 
> I'm wasting so much coffee trying to get the blasted pressure needle in the 12 o'clock position and everything I try doesn't seem to help! I'm always under extracting or over extracting. Not to mention the mess the machine makes.
> 
> ...


Don't fret so much about the pressure gauge, espresso can be brewed at a wide range of pressures. Unless you are making massive changes in grind setting & brew ratio, from one shot to the next shot, you are not veering from under-extraction to over-extraction. You are definitely not doing this at a constant grind setting & brew ratio.

Use the razor just to establish the head space. Put the PF/basket on 0.1g scales, tare, dose, tamp & use the razor. Discard any loose grounds. The scales should now tell you the dose weight. I wouldn't actually brew with a puck that I had razored. Or, just use 9-10g in the single, 17-18g in the double, but check actual weight in the PF with scales.

Personally, I'd grind into a cup/pot, give it a shake, then transfer to PF, rather than grind into PF direct.

Also aim for a given weight out, in the cup. You may have to kill the pump 10g or so before that weight, then slide the cup/scales off the drip tray/away from the PF as the last few drops make up your target. Start long in terms of ratio, maybe 1:3 to 1:4 with the double basket. Adjust grind until you get a balanced, sweet shot. If the coffee is too weak, grind finer & pull shorter until you hit an acceptable strength, without dropping into sharpness/tartness.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dm2583 said:


> I've been using Rave coffee's signature blend beans which are fresh as Rave are based 2 mins from me, grinder setting around 12, grind amount set to approx 2pm and i put a decent amount of weight into my tamp. I also use the Razor to ensure a consistent level of coffee.


How old are the beans? Sometimes when they're very fresh (less than around 7 days) they can be more difficult to work with due to the additional amount of gas they're still releasing. That might contribute to some more difficulty. You could ask Rave when they consider them best but I think most roasters suggest around 7 - 10 days old for espresso.

If you don't get anywhere with the Rave training let us know. I might be able to do some with you, if you're interested.


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## dm2583 (Nov 29, 2017)

jlarkin said:


> How old are the beans? Sometimes when they're very fresh (less than around 7 days) they can be more difficult to work with due to the additional amount of gas they're still releasing. That might contribute to some more difficulty. You could ask Rave when they consider them best but I think most roasters suggest around 7 - 10 days old for espresso.
> 
> If you don't get anywhere with the Rave training let us know. I might be able to do some with you, if you're interested.


I bought the beans the day I got the machine and I know the beans were roasted that same morning. Maybe they were too fresh?

Id definately be interested in training but are we not some distance apart?!

Ok, I'm unpacking the machine and am going to give it another chance. Thanks all for your help so far!


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

dm2583 said:


> I bought the beans the day I got the machine and I know the beans were roasted that same morning. Maybe they were too fresh?


It depends how many days you tried using them for but they would likely be changing a fair amount during that time, so could have contributed to your issues.



dm2583 said:


> Id definately be interested in training but are we not some distance apart?!


Depending whereabouts you are in Cirencester it's probably just over an hour from me.

MWJBs advice (as per usual) is very good. If you want to why not see how you get on from there, weighing the amount of coffee after it's ground and amount of coffee into the cup is likely to be a big win in terms of consistency and getting closer to something you like.


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## dm2583 (Nov 29, 2017)

So I decided to take the BE out of the box and give it a second chance. Learnt so much from this forum in the last few days so thought I'd put some of it to the test and see how I got on.

I bought some some scales today and setup the grinder to deliver 18g of coffee and adjusted the grinder level to 8. Tamped it properly and pulled a shot. My word what a difference!! I honestly think the shot I pulled was as close to perfect as I'll get. 2:1 ratio, beautiful crema and the pressure needle was bang on 12 oclock.

Glad and I persevered and to anyone else who doubts the machine, do some reading on these forums and learn, it'll pay off!

I think maybe the the coffee beans may have played a part too, last week when I was playing, the beans I purchased from Rave were roasted that very morning. They've now had a week to release their gases and I think it really made a difference.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Glad to hear it. Easy to get frustrated at the beginning and easy to blame the machine! Rave coffee needs 10 days rest for espresso and all the advice will have helped too. I've used the BE and I know it can get decent results. Don't get too hung up on the pressure gauge. You can programme the buttons to run for longer and stop the shot manually I believe, so the weighing in and out in roughly the right timeframe, and ultimately, taste, will be a better guide.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The pressure gauge is an indication of what is going on. The main problem with it is Sages manual. It suggests that it should do blah blah and that's that. The markings on the gauge are more informative really. They also make no mention of it's behaviour and the flow of a shot during infusion.

Another problem with it is that people often say don't take too much notice of it without explaining it's purpose. A similar post cropped up where that for some reason didn't happen. The OP posted that their shots had improved after they followed my suggestions on how it should be used. Using it isn't the end of the story but it can help a user understand how to get what they want out of the machine.








It needs a rather careful look because it's so small but it can also be used to keep a shot tuned that's slowly changing due to grinder output drift - providing some ones tamping is consistent. It will show significant variations in that.

As it stands the OP started another post - wont get their milk hot still looking for another make of machine.







Hope I have that correct and it wasn't some one else.

John

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