# Breville Barista Express BES870 extraction time



## SandyG

I use a single wall, single or double shot basket to extract my espresso.

For my single shot I grind approx 9-10gms and extract approx 18-20gms of espresso. For a double shot, twice the amount for a single shot. Thus my extraction ratio of 1:2 is spot on.

However, the problem I have with a single shot is that I cannot get past 13secs from start of button press to end of extraction. With a double shot the max time I can get is about 17 secs in total.

I have tried using a finer grind setting, even down to 1, as well as varying the tamping pressure. If I go too low on finess and too much tamping pressure, then my pressure gauge will be into the over extraction zone, and still not allowing me to get over 17 secs for the double shot. Having watched numerous videos, the ideal setting on the pressure gauge should be between 11-12 o'clock.

If I manually increase the extraction time to 25-30 secs, then my volume of extraction is way over the 60ml for a double shot, and the ratio of 1:2 is then out of proportion.

Could there be something wrong with my machine? Has the solenoid got anything to do with this problem?

My unit is new and has been doing this from the beginning.

Any advice would be welcomed.


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## ajohn

Have a look in the Sage forum. You'll find some posts suggesting what to do with a BE. I'd also suggest aiming for the ratios Sage suggest which in the case of the double is 18g in and 60ml out. Read the ml as grams.

You may be using crap beans. I have use several from super markets and only one behaved like that.

John

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## Cooffe

First problem is that you are using the integrated grinder. It's stepped and really not that good. In order to get something that remotely tastes like espresso I'd advise changing the outer burr setting (manually done) to grind finer. This feature is integrated to account for burr wear, but also you can use it to grind finer.

To do so you need to take off the hopper, go into where the burrs are and there's a metal bar that runs between two edges of a circular housing, with the burr in the middle. Flip it up and twist (may be quite difficult) to unlock and remove. If I recall my setting was about 5 on this and then varied between 4-7 on the dial on the side to hit anywhere near the right timing/taste for an espresso.

Further to this I'd advise using the WDT (Weiss Distribution Technique, see vids on YouTube) as the integrated grinder (again) is sub par.

Also id advise always just pulling doubles and splitting it if you want a single, or just drink what you want. Even pro baristas struggle with a single shot sometimes, and at most places they just pull a double if you ask for a single. Which is why the cost difference between the two is about 20p. Some shops refuse to sell singles as well.


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## MWJB

Hi @SandyG you're talking about time & pressure, but not telling us what the problem is with the taste? I take these shots are sour?

If the grinder cannot grind fine enough to balance the flavour of your shots at 1:2 ratio, you have no option but to aim for a higher ratio.

If you are switching between single & double baskets at the same grind setting, then you will have to use a longer ratio for the singles than the doubles. Say your doubles are 1:3, try 1:4.5 for the singles (or accept the fact you will need to keep dialling in for each basket).

If the ratio is longer than 1:2 you might not need to exceed 25s shot time. Kill the shot by weight, not time in any cases, so you always end up with your target weight in the cup, or thereabouts).


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## SandyG

Thanks for the tip. Will try that



Cooffe said:


> First problem is that you are using the integrated grinder. It's stepped and really not that good. In order to get something that remotely tastes like espresso I'd advise changing the outer burr setting (manually done) to grind finer. This feature is integrated to account for burr wear, but also you can use it to grind finer.
> 
> To do so you need to take off the hopper, go into where the burrs are and there's a metal bar that runs between two edges of a circular housing, with the burr in the middle. Flip it up and twist (may be quite difficult) to unlock and remove. If I recall my setting was about 5 on this and then varied between 4-7 on the dial on the side to hit anywhere near the right timing/taste for an espresso.
> 
> Further to this I'd advise using the WDT (Weiss Distribution Technique, see vids on YouTube) as the integrated grinder (again) is sub par.
> 
> Also id advise always just pulling doubles and splitting it if you want a single, or just drink what you want. Even pro baristas struggle with a single shot sometimes, and at most places they just pull a double if you ask for a single. Which is why the cost difference between the two is about 20p. Some shops refuse to sell singles as well.


Thanks for the tip. Will try and see if that helps.


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## SandyG

My taste is a bit sour at 17secs but I was concerned that most videos, plus the instruction book that comes with the machine all mention an extraction time of 25-35 secs, and my time is so much less. My point is that I cannot get it longer than 17secs, no matter what parameters, besides manually extending the pour time I use. Then I'm getting more than 60mls for a double shot.


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## MWJB

SandyG said:


> My taste is a bit sour at 17secs but I was concerned that most videos, plus the instruction book that comes with the machine all mention an extraction time of 25-35 secs, and my time is so much less. My point is that I cannot get it longer than 17secs, no matter what parameters, besides manually extending the pour time I use. Then I'm getting more than 60mls for a double shot.


If you're getting 1:2 in 17seconds, it must take more time than 17 seconds to get 1:3?

I've had plenty of tasty, longer shots on the Sage DTP at 20-25s.

If you're brewing by ratio, you should be hitting that ratio.


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## ajohn

SandyG said:


> My taste is a bit sour at 17secs but I was concerned that most videos, plus the instruction book that comes with the machine all mention an extraction time of 25-35 secs, and my time is so much less. My point is that I cannot get it longer than 17secs, no matter what parameters, besides manually extending the pour time I use. Then I'm getting more than 60mls for a double shot.


Your beans may be causing the problem so no way of knowing as not mentioned. I've found that rare but it did happen with one lot out of several none fresh roasted I have bought.

I wouldn't take much notice of comments about the grinder. I use a bean a lot that needs a very fine grind. Same bean in the BE and 9.4g in a single I had no problem brewing at 15 bar - that's the brew pressure just past the end of the espresso range shown on the dial in blue. Together than means a very fine grind, more finer than I use on my DB which brews at 9 bar. The fact that it's a stepped adjustment may mean that you need to use some latitude on time. For instance the single set up I mentioned needed 35 secs to produce the shot size I wanted which actually was neither 30 or 60g. Circa 35 actually. As it's a volumetric machine it held this well just via a button press once set up. What matters is *TASTE* not numbers from numpties who may not be drinking the same bean or using the same machine or several other things that I wont go into.

You may be concentrating on Sage's comments on the pressure gauge - forget them. Generally you will need to see some pressure on the guage during the 10secs of pre infusion and generally the gauge will go to a higher position than they suggest when that ends.

Other problems can be how much is in the filter basket. The razor tool will sort that out for a weight to play around with - within limits. Also tamping. Best answer to that is strain a little, even better keep your forearm vertical when you do it. Both together should ensure that you are using adequate pressure.

Don't stir the grinds unless you are getting hardish clumps coming out of the grinder - highly unlikely on this one unless it needs cleaning. Stirring can convert nice fluffy grinds to clumps or on some beans make no difference at all.

This is based on putting many Kg;s of beans through a BE by the way.

John

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## SandyG

ajohn said:


> Your beans may be causing the problem so no way of knowing as not mentioned. I've found that rare but it did happen with one lot out of several none fresh roasted I have bought.
> 
> I wouldn't take much notice of comments about the grinder. I use a bean a lot that needs a very fine grind. Same bean in the BE and 9.4g in a single I had no problem brewing at 15 bar - that's the brew pressure just past the end of the espresso range shown on the dial in blue. Together than means a very fine grind, more finer than I use on my DB which brews at 9 bar. The fact that it's a stepped adjustment may mean that you need to use some latitude on time. For instance the single set up I mentioned needed 35 secs to produce the shot size I wanted which actually was neither 30 or 60g. Circa 35 actually. As it's a volumetric machine it held this well just via a button press once set up. What matters is *TASTE* not numbers from numpties who may not be drinking the same bean or using the same machine or several other things that I wont go into.
> 
> You may be concentrating on Sage's comments on the pressure gauge - forget them. Generally you will need to see some pressure on the guage during the 10secs of pre infusion and generally the gauge will go to a higher position than they suggest when that ends.
> 
> Other problems can be how much is in the filter basket. The razor tool will sort that out for a weight to play around with - within limits. Also tamping. Best answer to that is strain a little, even better keep your forearm vertical when you do it. Both together should ensure that you are using adequate pressure.
> 
> Don't stir the grinds unless you are getting hardish clumps coming out of the grinder - highly unlikely on this one unless it needs cleaning. Stirring can convert nice fluffy grinds to clumps or on some beans make no difference at all.
> 
> This is based on putting many Kg;s of beans through a BE by the way.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Thanks John. My whole point was that keeping the ratio of grind amount to extracted amount was 1:2. I use a scale to measure the weight in gms as well as final total. This is pretty constant, but as mentioned, using different parameters besides increasing my pour time manually, I cannot get past 17 secs max from start to finish.

Will be trying some new beans from a different roaster and see if there is any change.


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## MWJB

ajohn said:


> What matters is *TASTE* not numbers from numpties who may not be drinking the same bean or using the same machine or several other things that I wont go into.
> 
> John
> 
> -


How do you convey taste over a forum, with someone using different beans/water etc?

Yes taste is what matters but you can't brew by solely by taste. Taste is the result of the brew, the brew is executed & adjusted via objective parameters to achieve a desirable taste. So numbers are the easiest, most universal language we have for that. I've never seen an espresso machine, or grinder, with a knob/control that says turn clockwise for more strawberry, anti-clockwise for nuts, flick this switch for more "yum", flick it again for "yuck"?

Whatever grinder, whatever beans, whatever the machine a 1:2 shot in 30-35s is just that. A 1:2 shot at say 18.5% +/-2% extraction yield is just that.

What we know so far from @SandyG is that currently their grinder cannot grind fine enough to extract at a 1:2 ratio (shots are running fast, taste is sour).


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## Mrboots2u

What matters is useful info that a person can act on, not noise from Numpties









We can not taste for the OP, we can provide some direction through brew ratios and measurements and timings to help steer the shot to be better.

They can then tell us is that shot is progressing in taste more to their liking , and how these "numbers" are staking up.

People constantly get confused that we mention brew ratios to evaluate a shot, we don't , it's up to the person drinking it to evaluate and then change the recipe accordingly.

Trying some known fresh coffee and reporting back is a good idea.


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## SandyG

I have solved the problem I was having with brew time.

I changed my brand of coffee beans and now I can get the desired brew time. Who would have thought that beans could make such a huge difference. Thanks for all the advice from the different authors.


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## jonnygarbe

Cooffe said:


> First problem is that you are using the integrated grinder. It's stepped and really not that good. In order to get something that remotely tastes like espresso I'd advise changing the outer burr setting (manually done) to grind finer. This feature is integrated to account for burr wear, but also you can use it to grind finer.
> 
> To do so you need to take off the hopper, go into where the burrs are and there's a metal bar that runs between two edges of a circular housing, with the burr in the middle. Flip it up and twist (may be quite difficult) to unlock and remove. If I recall my setting was about 5 on this and then varied between 4-7 on the dial on the side to hit anywhere near the right timing/taste for an espresso.
> 
> Further to this I'd advise using the WDT (Weiss Distribution Technique, see vids on YouTube) as the integrated grinder (again) is sub par.
> 
> Also id advise always just pulling doubles and splitting it if you want a single, or just drink what you want. Even pro baristas struggle with a single shot sometimes, and at most places they just pull a double if you ask for a single. Which is why the cost difference between the two is about 20p. Some shops refuse to sell singles as well.


 Great advice, I found much better results from fiddling with "internal" grind setting


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## bear102

Sorry to bring this topic back up but I was looking at changing the 'internal' grind setting on my BE and took out the outer burr and found that it does not have any of the options as expected, there is no orange dot or any internal grind settings to change on the inside of the plastic casing....

I've had the BE for a couple of years bought second hand. Is it purely down to the age of the machine where this is only available on newer machines?

Thanks


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## ajohn

Sounds like you have a rather old one. There has been some Sage Grinder Pro's without the adjustment as well. They provided shims to adjust the burr height if it was needed and later switched to the adjustable outer burr - metal, not plastic and a red dot.

If it's grinding down into the espresso range I wouldn't worry about it. If I posted a link on this thread on recalibrating their grinders you wont be able to do it that way.

There are some crazy videos on their grinders on youtube where people buy the machines or grinders and set the adjustable burr to it's finest setting and claim it's much better. In practice all many of them have done is changed the grind numbers they use not the grind itself. They also wont know what setting causes the burrs to rub and slow the motor down when the grinder is empty. Running like that for long or finer could damage the burrs. You could still check by running the grinder empty and then keeping it running as you set finer and finer one step at a time.

Not sure if the newer parts can be fitted. The burrs will wear out at some point but I would have thought it would need an enormous quantity of beans for a home user. One of the reasons they also mention for the new burr is that it allows some adjustment for wear. They show the burrs under spares - could be that the dearer assembly is both burrs or they are charging way too much for one of them.  They seem to have problems displaying the correct pictures. BUT AS I SAID they may not fit your model. Coffee Classic may know if they can be fitted and also provide part numbers to order off Sage.

John

-


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## bear102

ajohn said:


> Sounds like you have a rather old one. There has been some Sage Grinder Pro's without the adjustment as well. They provided shims to adjust the burr height if it was needed and later switched to the adjustable outer burr - metal, not plastic and a red dot.
> 
> If it's grinding down into the espresso range I wouldn't worry about it. If I posted a link on this thread on recalibrating their grinders you wont be able to do it that way.
> 
> There are some crazy videos on their grinders on youtube where people buy the machines or grinders and set the adjustable burr to it's finest setting and claim it's much better. In practice all many of them have done is changed the grind numbers they use not the grind itself. They also wont know what setting causes the burrs to rub and slow the motor down when the grinder is empty. Running like that for long or finer could damage the burrs. You could still check by running the grinder empty and then keeping it running as you set finer and finer one step at a time.
> 
> Not sure if the newer parts can be fitted. The burrs will wear out at some point but I would have thought it would need an enormous quantity of beans for a home user. One of the reasons they also mention for the new burr is that it allows some adjustment for wear. They show the burrs under spares - could be that the dearer assembly is both burrs or they are charging way too much for one of them.  They seem to have problems displaying the correct pictures. BUT AS I SAID they may not fit your model. Coffee Classic may know if they can be fitted and also provide part numbers to order off Sage.
> 
> John
> 
> -


 Thanks for the reply, seems to make perfect sense to me.

I'm based in Germany and looked at the replacement outer burrs and they're only 22 euros delivered so could pick some up to see if they make a difference but I think the one I have is fine to be honest, I just need to work better rather than blaming my tools!


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## metcam2

SandyG said:


> I use a single wall, single or double shot basket to extract my espresso.
> 
> For my single shot I grind approx 9-10gms and extract approx 18-20gms of espresso. For a double shot, twice the amount for a single shot. Thus my extraction ratio of 1:2 is spot on.
> 
> However, the problem I have with a single shot is that I cannot get past 13secs from start of button press to end of extraction. With a double shot the max time I can get is about 17 secs in total.
> 
> I have tried using a finer grind setting, even down to 1, as well as varying the tamping pressure. If I go too low on finess and too much tamping pressure, then my pressure gauge will be into the over extraction zone, and still not allowing me to get over 17 secs for the double shot. Having watched numerous videos, the ideal setting on the pressure gauge should be between 11-12 o'clock.
> 
> If I manually increase the extraction time to 25-30 secs, then my volume of extraction is way over the 60ml for a double shot, and the ratio of 1:2 is then out of proportion.
> 
> Could there be something wrong with my machine? Has the solenoid got anything to do with this problem?
> 
> My unit is new and has been doing this from the beginning.
> 
> Any advice would be welcomed.


 Hi all,

I've the exact same problem. Max 15s from start to finish. I want to get an extraction of >25s and am unconvinced the machine is working as intended as I can't get it to exceed 15s no matter what I try.

I've also not resolved the issue with 3 types of beans (one cheap bag, two dated, fresh bags, Union Coffee).

This the first time I've had an espresso machine so am really hoping you can help spot something obvious I'm not doing! Same as the OP, pour time never exceeds 15s, no matter what variables I independently alter.

Variables altered



3 types of coffee - 2 were fresh, dated, quality beans


Ensured I've at least 10 mins to heat up


Changed the beans


Single wall, double basket, double wall double basket


Changed the grind size across every step


Changed the outer burr setting from 6, to 5 to 3


Changed the grind amount from 16g through to 22g


Experimented and read up on tamping, and testing the puck afterwards for defects.


Outcomes of altering the above variables



On my present 'finest' setting, for 18g in, I yield 48g out.


The flow of the extraction begins ranging from 7-8s


The shot extracted begins with 2s of very dark before turning to watery, dribbling runoff.


No coffee is coming around the group head.


I can under or over extract, over extracting will yield less, still taking the same amount of time.


Depending on the vars, I can observe the pressure gauge range from 8 o'clock to 1 o'clock


Since then

After burning through two bags of coffee, I've now spent the evening with the goal of getting an extraction that lasts anything loner than 20s. Nothing.

Finally, I even went as far as reading the entire manual. Still no dice 

I'm close to my wits end here, any advice before I send it back?

Many thanks in advance,

M.


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