# Pressurised porta filter bitter coffee



## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Hi, prob on a hiding to nothing here for using preground coffee and pressurised porta filter, but my extractions are on the bitter end of the scale and I was wondering whether this is common for this scenario?

Or is the machine likely at fault, eg too hot?

Gaggia classic fyi

Thanks


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Need to know more

How much coffee are you using , how much espresso is it making .

Is the coffee weak and bitter or string and bitter ? Is the bitterness with milk in it ?

Bitter can be a function of the relationship between amount of coffee and water being used.

What's the pre ground coffee ( it is really dark or rubusta it could just be a function of the actual coffee being used )


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Need to know more
> 
> How much coffee are you using , how much espresso is it making .
> 
> ...


Hi Mrboots. Double basket leveled off to the top originally, but untamped. I have tried lowering the amount but it didn't seem sensitive.

I drink it as a black espresso or americano and its strong and bitter.

I've also tried 2 different preground blends to the same result. Both arabica I think.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Try running the shot for longer. I used up some Lavazza preground initially and found that a longer shot smoothed it off. 10g basket though and in real terms for my size of long black drink a bit weak. A 12g basket would probably have been ok for me. 14g double - depends on your size of drink. Me thinks it would need to be rather big.

You might get better results if the package states 100% arabica.

John

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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

hi ajohn,

yes i use lavazza cafe espresso and i bought a rombouts supreme d'arabica as a test, both 100& arabica. Ive been measuring 2oz doubles as i thought i was being authentic, so are you saying I should try a longer extraction? If so is this a sticking plaster or the right solution due to the nature of the pressurised pf?

thanks


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

It depends on how you look at it. I tend to regard it as what tastes good to me and that's about it really. Good reason too. I drink from 400ml mugs, to keep it in your terms but rather smaller say 12oz. I use a bean where 10.5g produces a strong long black / americano with an interesting taste. If I use 13.5g I just get a strong boring taste that's still about in my mouth 20min after I have drunk it. Other beans I have tried need around 12g and the same thing happens. That's ok and more isn't.

If you drinking espresso the same thing happens. It's a case of finding a quantity of grinds that produced the taste you want at the volume you want. I don't generally drink espresso but there is another aspect as well. It's not something to drink it's something to sip. A big difference so they are likely to be stronger. Taking the beans I tend to use there is circa 10g of grinds from that I will usually produce a shot in excess of 20g to mix in my long blacks. it will usually be larger than that. I don't actually measure it because my machine has a shot timer so I adjust that to taste. This is mixed with a lot of water for the long black. I would be surprised if an espresso drinker liked the taste of the shot. One person who I am pretty sure drinks espresso found that 7.5g of one of the beans I use was fine for him but I am pretty sure it was a lighter roast than the one I use. That's too weak for me. I tried a bean which he likes. All of the shot from 9.5g was fine in my drinks. He discards the first 6 sec of flow. This is a very strong bean. People do various things. Some insist on ratio's say 15g in 30g out. The usual baskets suggest 7g in 30 out and 14g in 60 out. Also flow time comes into it. In you case I suspect to use what you have and get what you want you need to forget that and reduce the quantity of coffee

When I mentioned increasing the amount out I was assuming long blacks / americano. I was using a bit short of 10g of Lavazza. 25 sec of flow removed the bitterness. Shorter times didn't. Same mugs and it was a bit weak.I'd estimate that 12g wouldn't have been. With these styles of drink it just means more shot and less water is being added. They are blends as well. Different beans have different characteristics. Some beans in them could produce flavour far more quickly than others








Units - I assume your oz are us fluid = 30ml = 30g more or less.

The pressurised basket is designed to give the right flow characteristics without having to find a grinder setting that gives the correct ones. It's assuming that preground is too coarse for an espresso machine. If it is fine enough for an espresso machine the coffee will slow the flow down even more.

There would be no harm in trying your preground in both a single or double unpressurised basket really. There is an assumption that the grind will be way too coarse for an espresso machine but that might not be the case.








Sorry if that's a bit jumbled - should be going to bed.

John

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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

Cheers for the detailed post ajohn.

The PPF with untamped preground does flow fast. 25s would probably produce a quadruple. I think I'll follow your advice and adjust the weight of grinds untill u produce an acceptable tasting 60ml.

The other thing I'm worried about is that my gaggia is too hot. I can turn the steam valve after the machine has warmed up for 30 mins and get a lot of steam. Flushing the group head also seams quite steamy. Not sure how normal that is, but makes me wonder how variable my temps are...


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

I don't mention the ratio I finish up with as it would probably generate a lot of "WHAT!!??'s you can't do that." However the taste suites me and generates drinks that I like and I didn't arrive there by accident. The taste also depends on the bean I use.

Ratio's can be looked at a different way. In general size is referred to as singles and doubles. Drink 30ml and 60ml which can more or less be measured as grams. Baskets 6 or 7g for singles and 12 or 14g for doubles. On that basis a ratio can be up to 1 to 5. Those figures have been around for rather a long time. Some manufactures produce and stock the 6g even though they may not sell many - or any a tall one told me. The 7 and 14 is always offered.

In our area ratios of 1 to 2 to say 1:to 3 might get heavy emphasis often as if there is some magic about them and people are double dammed and will get terrible drinks if they don't use them. I don't discount those figure and do try them but the aim of it all is a drink that I like. Actually as I'm fed up with the bean I am using at the moment I am going to visit them again and switch to the double. I could also visit them with the single but it would lead to a very short shot time. A lot less than the usual suggestions. My BE has a single and double shot button - the default settings come like that. When we used up the Lavazza the single produced a bitter drink and that was about it as far as tastes goes. Also rather weak so tried the double button. Much better on both scores. The double shot default shot timing is where people would expect it to be. Single a lot shorter. Now why would Sage do that? I see the single as a totally different ball game to the double.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Ratio's can be looked at a different way. In general size is referred to as singles and doubles. Drink 30ml and 60ml which can more or less be measured as grams. Baskets 6 or 7g for singles and 12 or 14g for doubles. On that basis a ratio can be up to 1 to 5. Those figures have been around for rather a long time. Some manufactures produce and stock the 6g even though they may not sell many - or any a tall one told me. The 7 and 14 is always offered.
> 
> In our area ratios of 1 to 2 to say 1:to 3 might get heavy emphasis often as if there is some magic about them and people are double dammed and will get terrible drinks if they don't use them.
> 
> ...


Ratios are a guide to concentration (intensity for a given bean), not flavour. 1:2 & 1:5 can both be used (and anything in between, maybe even longer), the coffee brewed at 1:5 will be weaker than the coffee brewed at 1:2. Your preference decides. Grind setting drives flavour balance.

It can be easier to hit a balanced & sweet shot at longer ratios (for a given grind size distribution) because the more water you push through a puck, the easier it is to extract the puck normally.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> I don't mention the ratio I finish up with as it would probably generate a lot of "WHAT!!??'s you can't do that." However the taste suites me and generates drinks that I like and I didn't arrive there by accident. The taste also depends on the bean I use.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can do what you want when you make coffee, wear a wookie outfit for all i care .

Only you seem to think there is magic about a certain ratio ( not the band ) . Ratios are measures, the same as blonding or volume ( 60ml or 30ml) , just IMHO weights are measures more effective and a way easier language to use. there is a reason its caught on in the home and pro coffee arena but Its all coffee and water acting together in the end.

People have to start somewhere and as mentioned by others a longer ratio can be easier to get tasty from. Ratios are there to measure not to taste. "More or less"estimates when making espresso can make a big difference to taste.

Where people seem to get stuck is being able to adjust to their personal preference .

The figures and methods that italian traditional espresso espoused have been around a long time , and if that gets you to where you need to be , then thats all good and proper . Worth bearing in and that the coffee used today is different quality and roast to the older italian cafes, and that milk drinks are not really prevalent in Italian coffee culture . DO you drink your espresso neat with sugar?

So different measures, standards have develop as coffee and peoples tastes change.


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