# Sticky  Water for boilers & manual brewing



## MWJB

*Espresso & boiler friendly water:*

Not all water that meets non-scaling parameters makes coffee that tastes nice. The shorthand answer is to find water with a bicarbonate level between 50-80mg/L as ion/bottled water label (as CaCO3 alkalinity this would be 40-60mg/L) for your espresso machine, that tastes nice. If your water is in this range and all your coffee tastes bad, change the water for different one but still in this range.

Using a particular water that doesn't scale, but is of a make up/so soft that makes your coffee taste bad/low body isn't a great idea. Plus you generally want some bicarbonate & a pH over 6 to lessen the chances of corrosion. It's swings & roundabouts, very soft water won't scale but can cause corrosion, harder water is less likely to be corrosive, but more likely to scale.

If Volvic tastes OK, no need to change. Volvic sits just outside of recommended spec for boiler care, but just outside, lots of folk will testify it's fine regarding lack of scaling. Waitrose Essentials Lockhills is smack bang in the middle of desired range, the only UK bottled water that is.

Here's a link to UK bottled waters & mix ratios to achieve boiler friendly water...

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/187vd8fjVQGCrvaoEz071BoSEOl-IY3rTl0-fZXLGx1w/edit?usp=sharing

*Manual brewing*

Choices are much wider here, kettles are easier to descale if necessary. The make up of the water has no impact on objective extraction yield, you don't need high mineral content to extract the flavour. Water make up does change the taste of the coffee, so just use a water that doesn't ruin your coffee (this could still be Volvic or Lockhills if that's what you can easily get).

You probably don't want your brew kettle scaling up if it has its own element, but if you get good brews with high mineral content water & your kettle & brewers are easy to clean/descale, then carry on. But bear in mind, high mineral content water usually also comes with high bicarbonate, which can flatten acidity and make the body seem overly chewy.

I personally like to use very soft water at home for brewing, using a steel/glass kettle, because I like the taste & clarity (~GH 20mg/L & KH 20mg/L as CaCO3, such as Deeside, or Voss but it's very expensive, or a mix of Zerowater & tap).

At work, or visiting friends & relatives, I use regular N Surrey tap water (hard). I still get some very tasty brews here, especially with long steep immersions. As an example of difficult water to brew with, I found the water in Menorca very hard to get a decent drip brew & had to use some bottled Estrella I, which is similar to Highland Spring in make up & the softest water I could reasonably find there.


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## The Systemic Kid

Done.


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## MildredM

That's great, thank you.

I wonder if it is worth adding @todays date then if the water changes in Volvic etc in the future it won't be misleading information.


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## MWJB

MildredM said:


> That's great, thank you.
> 
> I wonder if it is worth adding @todays date then if the water changes in Volvic etc in the future it won't be misleading information.


Thanks 

I think if the properties change significantly, then I'll just remove the references to it. A bit of variation is normal for any source, but a big change might be the result of something catastrophic and we'll probably get a heads up on that.


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## rob177palmer

That mixing sheet is brilliant - loads of ideas to try there.

I don't have the relevant App to interrogate the schedule - are those ratios automatically calculated from a record of the mineral analysis of each, or from your own *** packet workings?

I need to start mixing my stockpile of Ashbeck to improve taste so I'll try and drive to Waitrose this weekend.


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## MWJB

rob177palmer said:


> That mixing sheet is brilliant - loads of ideas to try there.
> 
> I don't have the relevant App to interrogate the schedule - are those ratios automatically calculated from a record of the mineral analysis of each, or from your own *** packet workings?
> 
> I need to start mixing my stockpile of Ashbeck to improve taste so I'll try and drive to Waitrose this weekend.


The ratios are calculated from the bottle label values, from a separate spreadsheet, I entered them on to the google sheet manually.

These suggestions are for a non-scaling, non-corrosive water in line with current recommendations. Taste is somewhat of a separate issue.


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## rob177palmer

So unfortunately the 5l bottles of water in waitrose Westbury Park are Princes Gate










Luckily they stock Lockhills in multipacks of 2l though.

Not entirely happy about the extra plastic wastage from smaller bottles but looking forward to trying in place of Ashbeck.


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## Mister_Tad

rob177palmer said:


> Luckily they stock Lockhills in multipacks of 2l though.
> 
> Not entirely happy about the extra plastic wastage from smaller bottles but looking forward to trying in place of Ashbeck.


Is that a case of just going to the shop and picking the right one?

The online listing says Stretton Hills - https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/essential-waitrose-still-natural-mineral-water/058459-29415-29416

I've been feeding my machine straight Volvic from day one, but this is half the price and we do all our of shopping (online) from Waitrose anyway.

On another note - has anyone tested their water straight from the tap compared to running through a filter?

I have an L-R coming later this week, and I've kind of been back and forth whether I continue to use Volvic, try something else, or use the inline filters with the machine with tap water.


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## rob177palmer

Careful on the online delivery - you can't specify the water you will receive - as above, both were the Essential water, so either could have arrived at your door. Maybe order and just send back with the driver if they send you the wrong source.


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## Nod

Thanks for organising this as a sticky and to MJWB for his expert advice...


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## Mister_Tad

I picked up some Lockhills yesterday, and noticed that the calcium content is higher than has been previously posted...

26 vs 20 - with everything else the same. This would be just enough to push it outside the sweet spot though. Anyone else notice this?


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## MWJB

Mister_Tad said:


> I picked up some Lockhills yesterday, and noticed that the calcium content is higher than has been previously posted...
> 
> 26 vs 20 - with everything else the same. This would be just enough to push it outside the sweet spot though. Anyone else notice this?


If everything else is the same, it adds a tiny bit of total hardness, which is not an issue.


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## Iris

I have been using ashbeck for at least 6 months with some of my espresso brewing equipment, does that mean it will have caused corrosion? I will swap to volvic mixed with ashbeck 1:1.

I thought the ashbeck was a safe bet as most people on here seem to advocate using it, that's why I used it.

Thankyou for posting this, I am grateful for the info and the time you have taken to compile it.


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## MWJB

Iris said:


> I have been using ashbeck for at least 6 months with some of my espresso brewing equipment, does that mean it will have caused corrosion? I will swap to volvic mixed with ashbeck 1:1.
> 
> I thought the ashbeck was a safe bet as most people on here seem to advocate using it, that's why I used it.
> 
> Thankyou for posting this, I am grateful for the info and the time you have taken to compile it.


I wouldn't panic, unless you have some tangible sign of damage. But, yes, for peace of mind going higher on the alkalinity & pH wouldn't be a bad thing.


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## Iris

MWJB said:


> I wouldn't panic, unless you have some tangible sign of damage. But, yes, for peace of mind going higher on the alkalinity & pH wouldn't be a bad thing.


how would I know if there was corrosion/ what would the signs be? do I need to open the machine and check internals?


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## MWJB

Iris said:


> how would I know if there was corrosion/ what would the signs be? do I need to open the machine and check internals?


If it is easy enough for you to do, then sure. Probably pitting on surfaces that get the highest temps & pressures (boilers & group).


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## jonnygarbe

I've been using filtered softened water in my sage barista express machine and have never really found the espresso to be exceptional. Thank you for this thread!


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## 17845

Sorry to revive an old thread.

I've just got hold of a TDS-3 meter and thought I would post my first results :-

Tap water = 182

Tap water after BWT cartridge = 155 (quite suprised with that one, expected less).

Ashbeck = 68

and just for kicks, Ashbeck out of Group = 75

Not sure what to make of these results but I found them interesting.


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## MWJB

Your water authority can provide the composition of your tap water. You really need to know the total hardness vs alkalinity (or Calcium, Magnesium & bicarbonate). TDS doesn't tell you much in itself.


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## Deidre

MWJB said:


> personally like to use very soft water at home for brewing, using a steel/glass kettle, because I like the taste & clarity (~GH 20mg/L & KH 20mg/L as CaCO3, such as Deeside, or Voss but it's very expensive, or a mix of Zerowater & tap).


 What does "GHl & "KH" stand for? (I know this will turn out to be obvious & I'll be kicking my own stupidity or blindness, but my brain is in low gear the past couple of days, so forgive please?)


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## MWJB

GH = General Hardness, or Total Hardness (your Calcium & Magnesium combined as CaCO3, not the values individually stated as ion on your bottled water label for instance).

KH - Karbonate Hardness, or Alkalinity. This is your bicarbonate as ion (as read on bottled water label) x0.82.

Long story short, recommended range for KH/Alkalinity is 40-60mg/L as CaCO3, or 50-75mg/L as bicarbonate ion (as per bottled water label).


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## Deidre

MWJB said:


> GH = General Hardness, or Total Hardness (your Calcium & Magnesium combined as CaCO3, not the values individually stated as ion on your bottled water label for instance).
> 
> KH - Karbonate Hardness, or Alkalinity. This is your bicarbonate as ion (as read on bottled water label) x0.82.
> 
> Long story short, recommended range for KH/Alkalinity is 40-60mg/L as CaCO3, or 50-75mg/L as bicarbonate ion (as per bottled water label).


 Thank you!?


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## 17845

MWJB said:


> Your water authority can provide the composition of your tap water. You really need to know the total hardness vs alkalinity (or Calcium, Magnesium & bicarbonate). TDS doesn't tell you much in itself.


 @MWJB, checking the Severn Trent website for my poostcode, none of the above are listed, only :-

PH = 7.25

Hardness Leve lHard

Hardness Clark 14.93

Hardness French 21.32

Hardness German 11.94

Regards.


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## MWJB

hubcap said:


> @MWJB, checking the Severn Trent website for my poostcode, none of the above are listed, only :-
> 
> PH = 7.25
> 
> Hardness Leve lHard
> 
> Hardness Clark 14.93
> 
> Hardness French 21.32
> 
> Hardness German 11.94
> 
> Regards.


 They all say the same thing, just in different units. Severn Trent may have a link where you get a useful breakdown, otherwise you need a KH drop kit from Amazon/aquarium supply shop.


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## catpuccino

If Severn Trent is anything like Scottish Water, they have a separate water hardness datasheet - it's not included in the water quality report.

32.5 CaCO3 in my case.


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## ohms

Some advice?

I live in Scotland, my PH is about 7, the hardness as mg/l CaCo3 is 46.50, Magnesium mgMg/l is 2.28.

I've had small issues with my Oscar II and recently had to change my corroded 3 way valve and switched over to Lockhills as a result, I'm definitely getting a better cup, but the plastic wastage isn't for me.

Opinions on what I could try as an alternative? (I'm thinking about filtering). What would my options be?


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## MWJB

It would be good to know what your alkalinity/KH is? You say the 3 way was corroded rather than scaled, so increasing the alkalinity maybe looks like the way to go?

You could add a little sodium bicarbonate to your tap water, or cut the tap water with a little harder water (e.g. less plastic waste, maybe there is one in a glass bottle) with more alkalinity, but knowing our start point in this respect would be good.


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## Deidre

@MWJB Without wanting to derail the question posed above in the last post, I have a lengthy ? water composition question I'd like to ask you, if I may? Should I post it here, or send you a PM?

Thank you!☺☕


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## MWJB

Deidre said:


> @MWJB Without wanting to derail the question posed above in the last post, I have a lengthy ? water composition question I'd like to ask you, if I may? Should I post it here, or send you a PM?
> 
> Thank you!☺☕


 I'm intrigued, best post it here, then if it's of benefit to anyone else, they will see it.


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## Deidre

MWJB said:


> I'm intrigued, best post it here, then if it's of benefit to anyone else, they will see it.


 Don't say I didn't warn you!??

I use the water tank to auto-fill the boiler, but am finding the low water alarm goes off on more & more my machine now, whereas it didn't at all for the first months of ownership. I do have very soft water (21.5 alkalinity, 11.3 hardness) and the previous owner had similar water with marginally more hardness than mine. No scale or corrosion ever accumulated on the insides in many years of use. (The previous owner had the water line plumbed in, therefore no engaging electrodes & water tank pumping.)

I have added a teaspoon of baking soda to each tank of water, but find it stronger tasting than I like; cutting soda back by much causes the low water alarm to act up again. I suppose I could learn to live with the stronger taste, but if there is a better solution, I'd be grateful. (Does adding teaspoon of soda in 2.6 kg of my water change the readings significantly? Apart from changing the alkalinity, does it alter other readings as well?)

I want to achieve 3 things: best flavour in coffee, optimum boiler condition (no scaling, nor soft water corrosion), and still allow water tank electrodes to engage for refilling of boiler with my water. ☺

Would plumbing it in be the best solution, thereby avoiding the pump & electrode problem, and keep deposits at bay & get best flavour without requiring baking soda?

Or, can the same 'no scaling' condition be maintained with a good tasting water recipe, while allowing me to use the water tank?

Does my very soft water on its own cause any long-term problems with the inner workings?

(ps, I do use a Britta filter, to remove chlorine taste, prior to filling machine.)


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## MWJB

You want 3 things, I can only advise regarding #2.

#1 There is no recommendation for best taste.

#3 I have no idea on this score, or the requirements of the sensors, sounds like a question for Londinium. Your primary problem seems to be having the machine work reliably off the tank.

SCA recommendations are 40mg/L minimum for alkalinity, you are well below this if you plumb in. I wouldn't do it if it were my machine.

I'm sure you can achieve a tank fed solution (assuming the low water alarm works as it should)

How much does your teaspoon of baking soda weigh? Never done this, but a teaspoon for 2.6l sounds a lot?


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## ohms

MWJB said:


> It would be good to know what your alkalinity/KH is? You say the 3 way was corroded rather than scaled, so increasing the alkalinity maybe looks like the way to go?
> You could add a little sodium bicarbonate to your tap water, or cut the tap water with a little harder water (e.g. less plastic waste, maybe there is one in a glass bottle) with more alkalinity, but knowing our start point in this respect would be good.


Couldn't spot that figure in Scottish Waters documentation, I'll have a look again though. I *presume* my 3 way was corroded due to the rather soft nature of the water here, but I'm not exactly sure what the difference would look like, tbh!

I'll have a look at the data sheet again.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Deidre

MWJB said:


> You want 3 things, I can only advise regarding #2.
> 
> #1 There is no recommendation for best taste.
> 
> #3 I have no idea on this score, or the requirements of the sensors, sounds like a question for Londinium. Your primary problem seems to be having the machine work reliably off the tank.
> 
> SCA recommendations are 40mg/L minimum for alkalinity, you are well below this if you plumb in. I wouldn't do it if it were my machine.
> 
> I'm sure you can achieve a tank fed solution (assuming the low water alarm works as it should)
> 
> How much does your teaspoon of baking soda weigh? Never done this, but a teaspoon for 2.6l sounds a lot?


 Thanks for your input, mwjb. Yes, did chat with manufacturer and the softness of my water is indeed the problem with triggering the electrodes at the base of the tank; baking soda was suggested as the most straightforward way to address it. It works, but my palate notices the taste. I've been trying to reduce amounts, and speculated there might be alternatives. Unfailing optimism & curiosity!?

A full teaspoon of baking soda weighs about 5.55 grams, and I am adding that to a full tank of 2.6 kilograms water. I am trying to get away with using less soda (4.0 g.)

Perhaps there are home-use test kits available that can measure the relevant components, when experimenting with adding things to water. I'd like to know for certain I am doing no harm to boiler or inner machine parts, if dumping in additives.... soda, magnesium, calcium, or whatever.??‍♀


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## Deidre

Ah-ha.... DIY water.... just found this, & it's worth investigating further:

https://baristahustle.com/blog/diy-water-recipes-redux/

https://baristahustle.com/blog/diy-water-recipes-the-world-in-two-bottles/


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## MWJB

Deidre said:


> A full teaspoon of baking soda weighs about 5.55 grams, and I am adding that to a full tank of 2.6 kilograms water. I am trying to get away with using less soda (4.0 g.)
> 
> Perhaps there are home-use test kits available that can measure the relevant components, when experimenting with adding things to water. I'd like to know for certain I am doing no harm to boiler or inner machine parts, if dumping in additives.... soda, magnesium, calcium, or whatever.??‍♀


 4g of baking soda in to 2.6g of water looks like an additional ~900mg/L of alkalinity by my calculation?

You should only need to be adding about 0.13g to 2.6L.


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## Deidre

MWJB said:


> 4g of baking soda in to 2.6g of water looks like an additional ~900mg/L of alkalinity by my calculation?
> 
> You should only need to be adding about 0.13g to 2.6L.


 Gosh, 0.13 is just a very wee pinch of soda. Not enough to register with the electrodes.??


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## MWJB

Deidre said:


> Gosh, 0.13 is just a very wee pinch of soda. Not enough to register with the electrodes.??


 Then it's unlikely the alkalinity is the problem. Even if you try BH water the alkalinity won't be much higher, maybe 50mg/L (but it will have much more total hardness).


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## Deidre

MWJB said:


> Then it's unlikely the alkalinity is the problem. Even if you try BH water the alkalinity won't be much higher, maybe 50mg/L (but it will have much more total hardness).


 Oh, not good news then.?


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## MWJB

Deidre said:


> Oh, not good news then.?


 Well, it's sort of normal range for alkalinity recommendation (40-60mg/L), my tap water is hard & scaling but alkalinity is still only 230mg/L.

Sanity check by buying some normal water like Volvic/Waitrose Lockhills & see what that does to the sensor?


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## Deidre

MWJB said:


> Well, it's sort of normal range for alkalinity recommendation (40-60mg/L), my tap water is hard & scaling but alkalinity is still only 230mg/L.
> 
> Sanity check by buying some normal water like Volvic/Waitrose Lockhills & see what that does to the sensor?


 Right-o, I'll get my hands on a few bottles of the recommended bottled water, just to be sure; it may turn out I have to address a deeper issue; hope that's not the case, though.?

A separate question: If I wasn't having this current trouble (refilling boiler from the water tank), would my tap water at 21.5 mg/L Alkalinity & 11.3 mg/L hardness be corrosive to boiler & inner parts? Or, would it be not likely to cause problematic deposits?


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## Rob1

Deidre said:


> Right-o, I'll get my hands on a few bottles of the recommended bottled water, just to be sure; it may turn out I have to address a deeper issue; hope that's not the case, though.?
> 
> A separate question: If I wasn't having this current trouble (refilling boiler from the water tank), would my tap water at 21.5 mg/L Alkalinity & 11.3 mg/L hardness be corrosive to boiler & inner parts? Or, would it be not likely to cause problematic deposits?


 Was going to say you're adding way too much bicarbonate but see I've been beaten too it.

With regards to corrosion you should avoid chlorides. Concentrations as low as 10mg/l have been shown to cause corrosion of 316l steel, especially when the water is evaporated as in a service boiler and the salts deposit on the metal. Not sure how corrosive chlorides are to brass or copper but La Marzocco recommend less than 30 mg/l.

I would be very careful following barista hustle water recipes as they call for chlorides and sulphates which aside from anything else I found made the water taste bad above about 25 mg/l for them both.

I remineralised distilled water with potassium bicarb alone for a while. The taste was fine compared to water with calcium and magnesium salts, though the calcium gave the coffee a better body (creamy). I stopped using calcium chlorides and just used magnesium sulphate but I had to keep the amounts low to stop the sulphates from rising above 25mg/l as they add a weird metallic bitter taste and there was really no point; there was no discernible taste difference between the magnesium and bicarbonate brews and brews made just with bicarbonates added. I now remineralise water with Magnesium bicarbonate and sodium bicarbonate. Magnesium bicarbonate is made by reacting magnesium hydroxide with pure carbonated water (Seltzer water). I end up with about 22mg/l Magnesium hardness and 40mg/l alkalinity with 10mg/l sodium. The concentrate of sodium bicarb is made with about 12g in 500ml and 5ml of that is added to 2995ml water to get an alkalinity of 20mg/l with 10mg/l Sodium. You've been brewing with what is practically a concentrate!

I'll be surprised if your sensors aren't faulty. They work via conductivity and your water should be conductive at 11 mg/l hardness (level probes in boilers are working?).


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## Deidre

@Rob1

This is very helpful information! I am most grateful. I will change my focus from the water additives and dig deeper into the probes & sensors aspects.

My local water hardness sits at 11 mg/l, and I hadn't realized that was enough to conduct, so this is a specific measurement that is useful to know.


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## DavecUK

Deidre said:


> @Rob1
> 
> This is very helpful information! I am most grateful. I will change my focus from the water additives and dig deeper into the probes & sensors aspects.
> 
> My local water hardness sits at 11 mg/l, and I hadn't realized that was enough to conduct, so this is a specific measurement that is useful to know.


 Deidre, with a copper boiler even absolutely pure water will conduct...


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## ArisP

On this topic, new video from James out just now. Nowhere in depth as this discussion, but pretty much on point.


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## MWJB

ArisP said:


> On this topic, new video from James out just now. Nowhere in depth as this discussion, but pretty much on point.


 It's wrong - Ca & Mg are in almost all ground water & bottled water (some have almost no Mg), but they have no known effect on measurable extraction. Sort of borne out by the fact that the bottled water James shows is absurdly soft & low in alkalinity. You will have no trouble extracting brewed coffee with RO water, it might be on the bright side, it might even be fine.

The effect of proportions Ca vs Mg is also not known.

Water is the simplest thing to fix, it's not as complicated as coffee roasting, for example.


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## ArisP

MWJB said:


> It's wrong - Ca & Mg are in almost all ground water & bottled water (some have almost no Mg), but they have no known effect on measurable extraction. Sort of borne out by the fact that the bottled water James shows is absurdly soft & low in alkalinity. You will have no trouble extracting brewed coffee with RO water, it might be on the bright side, it might even be fine.
> 
> The effect of proportions Ca vs Mg is also not known.
> 
> Water is the simplest thing to fix, it's not as complicated as coffee roasting, for example.


 I'm not an expert in water chemistry; if you are and you say he is wrong, then I have no reason to doubt you.

My point and his point are that hard water for espresso tastes bad. I get a much nicer, more round shot using Volvic than using London tap water, with all other parameters of the process being the same.

So, all else being equal, and not expecting people to start creating their own waters, for me at least the single most effective upgrade when it comes to water for most people would be to switch from tap to (proper) bottled. And yes, I also struggle with the wastefulness of plastic bottles.


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## MWJB

ArisP said:


> I'm not an expert in water chemistry; if you are and you say he is wrong, then I have no reason to doubt you.
> 
> My point and his point are that hard water for espresso tastes bad. I get a much nicer, more round shot using Volvic than using London tap water, with all other parameters of the process being the same.
> 
> So, all else being equal, and not expecting people to start creating their own waters, for me at least the single most effective upgrade when it comes to water for most people would be to switch from tap to (proper) bottled. And yes, I also struggle with the wastefulness of plastic bottles.


 If you read the first post in this thread, I don't see why you are talking about using raw London tap water. Yes, huge amounts of alkalinity will flatten your coffee's acidity in a lot, but not all scenarios & the water will scale your machine without treatment.

Water composition is what it is, it changes with simple to grasp math, or straight measurement. I'm not an expert on it, neither is James. I have brewed coffee with countless formulations and it all extracts the same in measurable terms. It does taste different, but without mass spectrometry (beyond most of our means) we don't know for sure why, but we can't tally that with extraction specifically.


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## ArisP

MWJB said:


> If you read the first post in this thread, I don't see why you are talking about using raw London tap water. Yes, huge amounts of alkalinity will flatten your coffee's acidity in a lot, but not all scenarios & the water will scale your machine without treatment.
> 
> Water composition is what it is, it changes with simple to grasp math, or straight measurement. I'm not an expert on it, neither is James. I have brewed coffee with countless formulations and it all extracts the same in measurable terms. It does taste different, but without mass spectrometry (beyond most of our means) we don't know for sure why, but we can't tally that with extraction specifically.


 I see what you are saying, and sorry if I hijacked your thread by posting this video. The point I was trying to make is that most people still use tap water and find their espresso tastes "off".

I certainly appreciate the work you have put into this and the information you have provided!


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## MWJB

Cheers, appreciate that. The reason I started this particular thread was to condense & simplify the findings of all the various papers & books on water for coffee. (which essentially all say the same thing).

I don't feel hijacked , it's just a bit frustrating when James's video is so long & sprawling, plus contains thoughts that have never been observed by actual experimentation. If the video itself had just been better, I'd have gladly welcomed your posting of it with a like.


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## Little_tipple

Slightly scared to reply to this topic now, but I just made my own video doing a straightforward taste test between tap water and RO water with added Mg and Ca, as per James' video... I have to confess that I like coffee more than I know about it, but i would genuinely appreciate any constructive feedback to the video...






Also, @joey24dirt's tamper gets a brief feature!


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## MWJB

Little_tipple said:


> Slightly scared to reply to this topic now, but I just made my own video doing a straightforward taste test between tap water and RO water with added Mg and Ca, as per James' video... I have to confess that I like coffee more than I know about it, but i would genuinely appreciate any constructive feedback to the video...
> 
> Also, @joey24dirt's tamper gets a brief feature!


 Nice looking video.

It might have been interesting to know what the difference between the BH water and your tap water actually is in terms of total hardness & alkalinity. Tap water is incredibly varied.

A simpler route to softening your tap water could also be a simple Zerowater jug, remineralising it with your tap water.

Yes, a few mg of alkalinity (let's say 8) per mug does make your coffee taste different...and so does more than 300mg of actual coffee. Hopefully that puts the units of each in perspective? They're both important, your coffee can't be "1% off" in extraction, especially if you brew it via different methods. If it's much weaker/more bitter than tastes good to you, then that's pretty easy to detect.


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## Little_tipple

thanks @MWJB, there's some good points there - I'll take a look into the Zerowater - and I'll get a testing kit for the tap water, would be fascinated to know for other uses in the house too.


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## ArisP

Hey @Little_tipple

I'm not sure how I missed your post, but watching your video now, and typing at the same time (taking notes). So, constructive feedback, even if not coffee related:

Love the panning shots. Consider either investing in lap microphone, or at least record somewhere without echo.

The "talking head" aspect is very good, but the jump-cuts between sentences retract from the message you are trying to communicate.

I also picked up a strange music in the background? Thankfully, it was low enough. I could go on about autofocus, color grading but already on thin ice in this thread, so...about the coffee:

Similar to what I have said before, the biggest change that most people don't consider is switching from tap water to a proper water, and how that changes the flavor. You seem to have that point as well, and I agree that making your own water, cost aside, might be a step too far.

Another thing to consider (I might be stoned to death for this) is that different roast levels and different varieties/bean processing methods do better or worse with water that has high or low alkalinity.

Overall, really good video!


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## MWJB

ArisP said:


> Similar to what I have said before, the biggest change that most people don't consider is switching from tap water to a proper water, and how that changes the flavor.
> 
> Another thing to consider (I might be stoned to death for this) is that different roast levels and different varieties/bean processing methods do better or worse with water that has high or low alkalinity.


 How is tap water (which is any mains supplied, potable water that comes out of your tap, irrespective of ion content) not "proper water"? If "proper water" is a water that cannot be drawn from any natural source/easily treated from your mains supply, should we be pursuing it at a practical level given the inevitable waste?

I don't think anyone would stone you to death for telling us which waters/alkalinity levels are best for certain beans. So, which are?

I brew my coffee at home with treated water, at work & relatives' with the regular tap (~190ppm alkalinity). Sure, certain origins, like Kenyans, Rwandans, Colombians do seem to stand up better to higher alkalinity, but these preferences also seem to match my treated/bottled water brews too.


----------



## ArisP

MWJB said:


> How is tap water (which is any mains supplied, potable water that comes out of your tap, irrespective of ion content) not "proper water"? If "proper water" is a water that cannot be drawn from any natural source/easily treated from your mains supply, should we be pursuing it at a practical level given the inevitable waste?
> 
> I don't think anyone would stone you to death for telling us which waters/alkalinity levels are best for certain beans. So, which are?
> 
> I brew my coffee at home with treated water, at work & relatives' with the regular tap (~190ppm alkalinity). Sure, certain origins, like Kenyans, Rwandans, Colombians do seem to stand up better to higher alkalinity, but these preferences also seem to match my treated/bottled water brews too.


 Nop, nahh, not falling for this again, you do you mate! ?


----------



## Rob1

Pretty decent video. I'd say a couple of things:

1) I use a distiller and it doesn't get scaled up badly because I don't boil it dry. If you do, yes it's awful, probably taints the water and you need to clean it out with citric acid every time. If you don't let it boil dry though you end up with a bit of scale (say you produce 3 litres of DI from 4 litres of water) and a cloudy concentrate that you need to pour away. I find I can go a couple of months without needing to clean my distiller in this way but I only use a little over 3 litres a week for espresso.

2) Distilled water has no taste. When you 'taste' distilled water what you're actually tasting is your own mouth and breath.

3) You compared two completely different brews (draw down times were different). A better comparison would be to grind finer for the remineralised brew v the tap water brew and to ensure you're using a consistent grind. e.g. if you dose say 20g into the grinder and split off the first 10g for one brew as it's coming out then the grind size will be different for the two brews. If you grind the whole lot and mix it up before splitting your doses it'll be ok.

I read a surprising article recently where a bunch of professional cuppers tasted coffee made with water remineralised in different ways (calcium in one, magnesium in another, bicarbonates in another) and compared their tasting notes and preferences to plain distilled water. Distilled water won to everyone's surprise.


----------



## MWJB

It's likely the big difference in draw down has a more mechanical, input cause, the difference in water used will have no effect on measurable extraction, so there shouldn't be any need to change grind based on water..


----------



## TomHughes

Quick question, which may have been answered already, but does anyone know how a brita filter affects the different elements of TDS? So does it preferentially remove calcium etc.

Our water is TDS 290. Ca 104.

Post filter I can get it to 190, any idea if this is predominately calcium? Nothing I've found shows mineral analysis pre and post.

Another question, anyone managed to get the HCO3 from Yorkshire Water? its not part of their reports.


----------



## MWJB

TomHughes said:


> Quick question, which may have been answered already, but does anyone know how a brita filter affects the different elements of TDS? So does it preferentially remove calcium etc.
> 
> Our water is TDS 290. Ca 104.
> 
> Post filter I can get it to 190, any idea if this is predominately calcium? Nothing I've found shows mineral analysis pre and post.
> 
> Another question, anyone managed to get the HCO3 from Yorkshire Water? its not part of their reports.


 You need the HCO3/alkalinity. Doesn't Yorkshire water have a more in depth analysis if you put in your postcode? If not, buy a KH/alkalinity drop kit as you'll need this to see the effect of untreated tap, vs Brita etc anyway.


----------



## Little_tipple

thanks @ArisPfor your feedback - and yep, i take all the video stuff on board - problem is that when i'm filming commercially I'm behind the lens, so far easier to control all that sort of stuff, and generally the studios i use are less echoey than my kitchen! ? Glad the point i was trying to make mostly came across well!


----------



## Little_tipple

Hi @Rob1 - thank you! for the brews - i ground one batch, then mixed and split the grinds between the two brewers - not sure that was clear in the sped up footage of me doing that. and that's a really interesting point about the taste of distilled water - I hadn't thought about it that way, perhaps I just don't like the taste of my own mouth... I feel bad for my wife now!


----------



## ajohn

How do you derive ppm alkalinity? To me that is Ph.

The figures I get from the tap are as follows

Hardness 3.15 clark / 45ppm/l CaCO3. I asked seven trent and didn't get a completely clear answer but this seems to be total hardness.

The rest is as follows - last column EU/UK limits unless other wise stated. A high Ph very probably relates to when they have done work on the system. Normally it's more stable. Low must be a whoopsy but not sure now there is more plastic in the network. Dilution Number relates to taste and smell. We seldom smell chlorine unless work has been done on the systems some where.









John

-


----------



## Bica60s

TomHughes said:


> Quick question, which may have been answered already, but does anyone know how a brita filter affects the different elements of TDS? So does it preferentially remove calcium etc.
> 
> Our water is TDS 290. Ca 104.
> 
> Post filter I can get it to 190, any idea if this is predominately calcium? Nothing I've found shows mineral analysis pre and post.
> 
> Another question, anyone managed to get the HCO3 from Yorkshire Water? its not part of their reports.


 Brita's "Maxtra+" filters do reduce TDS. I recently dropped the test strips as being not being precise enough in my own testing of them and bought a TDS meter. This meter only tells you TDS which includes bicarbonates (temporary) and permanent hardness, but my own water supplier confirms that "a majority of the TDS measured will likely be made up of the temporary hardness", so TDS, whilst not accurate, will provide a likely ball-park for HCO3. The test meter is accurate to within 2% and for my tap water reads 244PPM TDS from the straight tap water (average of readings taken over a 3 day period) with a tap PH of 7.7. A fresh Brita Maxtra filter takes this TDS down to about 192, so a useful reduction of 52PPM TDS, a majority of which is HCO3 and pH is reduced to high 6's.

I have descaled my machine after just under a month's use with this filter and the resultant water came out clean as a whistle to the naked eye, plus (yes I know...no lecturing needed ?) the kettle hasn't furred up at all during the same period...not an iota, whereas previously before we used the Maxtra filter, scale was noted after just several days after descaling.

I have also run our old machine for a month without descaling alongside our newer machine, just to get a handle on any build up within the machines. That was descaled at the same time and the residue from the descaling was visibly high in scale, and using the tester, measured a whopping 2800PPM due to the amount which had been removed from the boiler and pipework over that period. Yes, residual scale would have remianed from after the previous descaling but like a numpty I didn't actually test water from both machines prior to descaling the new one, just tap water, filtered water and post-descaling water. The machine using the Brita filter, whilst showing no visible signs of scale, tested at around 490PPM from the descaled water flushed from the machine.

This tells me that 1) it is very important to descale at least monthly if no filter was used, but that 2)using a Brita Maxtra+ is very effective in moderately hard water areas with no need to re-balance water as with filters that completely strip water of mineral content. The Maxtra uses RO (treated resin spheres) as well as a carbon filter. Having undertaken these tests, I'm now happy that it's safe to just use the Brita providing that filters are changed every 4 weeks or so (if you buy in bulk, this works out at about 66p/week).


----------



## MWJB

ajohn said:


> How do you derive ppm alkalinity? To me that is Ph.
> 
> -


 Relates to bicarbonate (buffer) ions.


----------



## MWJB

Bica60s said:


> Brita's "Maxtra+" filters do reduce TDS. I recently dropped the test strips as being not being precise enough in my own testing of them and bought a TDS meter. This meter only tells you TDS which includes bicarbonates (temporary) and permanent hardness, but my own water supplier confirms that "a majority of the TDS measured will likely be made up of the temporary hardness", so TDS, whilst not accurate, will provide a likely ball-park for HCO3.


 As the bicarbonate content can exceed the mg/L TDS, or be less than a third of it, TDS alone doesn't seem to be a reliable guide? If you have a TDS meter, why not a KH drop kit and simply measure the thing you're aiming to measure?


----------



## ajohn

MWJB said:


> As the bicarbonate content can exceed the mg/L TDS, or be less than a third of it, TDS alone doesn't seem to be a reliable guide? If you have a TDS meter, why not a KH drop kit and simply measure the thing you're aiming to measure?


 TDS meters that use conductivity aren't much use. Perhaps an extreme way of explaining that is if some one added cyanide it would increase the reading. They don't really differentiate what is causing the conductivity. Most useful on fully deionised water to show that it is and when to replace the resins but the reading wont stay that low for long as CO2 is drawn in from the atmosphere. Limited use even on distilled water which is far more stable and will conduct. Chemistry is the simple way - drop kits and test papers etc or some rather expensive equipment that can detect the presence of elements and the quantities.

If people use a TDS meter and they are more popular a drop in reading just indicates something has been removed. People who mix RO water might find them useful for comparing how much they have added. I'd doubt if typical RO water is as unstable as fully deionised so probably shows a reading. Good job to as drinking fully deionised water really isn't a good idea.

John

-


----------



## Bica60s

MWJB said:


> As the bicarbonate content can exceed the mg/L TDS, or be less than a third of it, TDS alone doesn't seem to be a reliable guide? If you have a TDS meter, why not a KH drop kit and simply measure the thing you're aiming to measure?


 Can you recommend a reliable KH drop kit? The one's I've seen are for pools and I'm unsure if they deal with the same ranges. I have seen one other which consists of a small bottle containing liquid that turns yellow and you count the number of drops into a specified measure, converting this to a %KH. That was about £16 from memory. I agree that TDS alone is not reliable but at least gives some indication of the degree of overall hardness.


----------



## Bica60s

ajohn said:


> TDS meters that use conductivity aren't much use. Perhaps an extreme way of explaining that is if some one added cyanide it would increase the reading. They don't really differentiate what is causing the conductivity. Most useful on fully deionised water to show that it is and when to replace the resins but the reading wont stay that low for long as CO2 is drawn in from the atmosphere. Limited use even on distilled water which is far more stable and will conduct. Chemistry is the simple way - drop kits and test papers etc or some rather expensive equipment that can detect the presence of elements and the quantities.
> 
> If people use a TDS meter and they are more popular a drop in reading just indicates something has been removed. People who mix RO water might find them useful for comparing how much they have added. I'd doubt if typical RO water is as unstable as fully deionised so probably shows a reading. *Good job to as drinking fully deionised water really isn't a good idea.*
> 
> John
> 
> -


 Absolutely! Not to be recommended...and also not too good for anything metal it comes into contact with...

Agreed RE TDS meter. Mine reads a little higher than the test strips I have indicating perhaps it's picking up something else other than just TDS. It is quite consistent though in the amount of "TDS" reduction I am achieving with the filter as compared with the test strips.


----------



## MWJB

I have this one, tests more than KH though.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Labs-Multiple-Analysis-Kit-Ponds/dp/B008DVXZNC/ref=sr_1_7?keywords=kh+drop+kit&qid=1578583119&sr=8-7

The Red Sea pro alkalinity test kit should be more than adequate


----------



## Bica60s

Thanks for that. I did see that but thought that this one might offer all that was needed for a little less?

https://www.pond-planet.co.uk/aquarium-c4/food-treatments-planting-c81/aquarium-test-kits-c82/jbl-proaquatest-carbonate-hardness-kh-water-test-kit-p2768/s4565?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=jbl-proaquatest-carbonate-hardness-kh-water-test-kit-2411017&utm_campaign=product%2Blisting%2Bads&gclid=CjwKCAiAu9vwBRAEEiwAzvjq-1RGNvqkRXc9A0SbPXKpqQCE6iIBD6Oou6rRIuwA7UwhMVo-hSRN8RoCVnoQAvD_BwE

Just found this one on evilbay too:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/p/JBL-Proaquatest-KH-Carbonate-Hardness-Refill-Aquarien-wassertest/21034751463?iid=262274173439&chn=ps&norover=1&mkevt=1&mkrid=710-134428-41853-0&mkcid=2&itemid=262274173439&targetid=594652347800&device=c&mktype=pla&googleloc=1006741&poi=&campaignid=6466521080&mkgroupid=72711419930&rlsatarget=pla-594652347800&abcId=1140486&merchantid=110778238&gclid=CjwKCAiAu9vwBRAEEiwAzvjq-_twhsLr5l937jn6aFYxhF0P4v__9y-h3D4yu9D6XKckt74lEAkH5hoCersQAvD_BwE


----------



## Rob1

I use https://www.amazon.co.uk/API-Freshwater-Aquarium-Water-1-Count/dp/B003SNCHMA/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?keywords=kh+gh+test+kit&qid=1578704298&smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&sprefix=kh+gh&sr=8-1

With just potassium bicarb added to get an alkalinity of 50 my TDS reader would give me a reading of about 15-20 from memory. Using sodium and magnesium bicarb for the same alkalinity gives me a reading of 30. So really not possible to read HCO3 with a TDS meter.


----------



## stuartm

I'm looking to move house in the next few weeks. I grabbed a water sample of the hopefully soon to be new house. The estate agent thought I was a bit mad, fair enough I suppose.

After putting the water through my bwt filter the TH went from 16-->9 oD and CH went from 11 --> 7oD. I think this equates to 124 PPM of CaCO3, which i think is slightly hard, is that correct?

What's the thoughts on that? is that ok to use or do I need to water it down with say ashbeck?

thanks,

Stu


----------



## MWJB

stuartm said:


> I'm looking to move house in the next few weeks. I grabbed a water sample of the hopefully soon to be new house. The estate agent thought I was a bit mad, fair enough I suppose.
> 
> After putting the water through my bwt filter the TH went from 16-->9 oD and CH went from 11 --> 7oD. I think this equates to 124 PPM of CaCO3, which i think is slightly hard, is that correct?
> 
> What's the thoughts on that? is that ok to use or do I need to water it down with say ashbeck?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Stu


 124ppm of KH is a bit high for an espresso machine, recommendation is 40-60.

Might be OK for brewed?


----------



## stuartm

MWJB said:


> 124ppm of KH is a bit high for an espresso machine, recommendation is 40-60.
> 
> Might be OK for brewed?


 Thanks. Sale just fallen through. So I'll continue using Tesco water at home.


----------



## Breskin

Hi,

I just don't want to create another topic, so I would like ask you here.

I've read couple of topics, articles and comments about "best water". However, there are different opinions, so I still not sure what water is the best for FILTER methods (sometimes I am using moka pot as well)

Lockhills? Third Wave Water with deminaralized water? BWT?

I am currently using Brita/BWT filters, but I know, that I could feel a big difference if I will change the water. Also, I am not using more than 1l per day.

Thanks


----------



## MWJB

There are different opinions because there is no best water for filter.

BWT will depend on what you are starting with in terms of tap water. Remineralising RO/distilled might just get you to the same place as Lockhills or BWT, unless you are specifically looking for something.

Generally, I'd say, if your coffee is well extracted, but overly bright (can't be fixed by grinding finer) try water with more alkalinity/KH. Likewise, if the coffee is dull with a very heavy body/silty and grinding coarser can't fix it without under-extracting, try water with less alkalinity/KH.

Lockhills is a good datum, it won't make your coffee taste bad.

Get a KH drop kit to test your tap water & the effect of the BWT filter.


----------



## Joescafe

Does a Britta help?


----------



## hotmetal

If you mean a Brita jug filter, then, no, not really.

___
Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Gubbo89

Thanks for all the info so far, it's all a bit overwhelming for someone starting out so is it possible to advise on a simple/quick fix for better water?

My water is measured at 273 CaCO3.

Would a filter jug of some sort like BWT be a good start or could that make things worse as it adds Magnesium back into water?

Im not at the level nor have the time to create and remineralise my own water so hoping to get in the right path.

Thanks!


----------



## hotmetal

I haven't read the whole thread and I expect it's been said already. I also don't want to over complicate making a decent coffee or risking my machine's health. In the end, for me, without any chemistry degree (or even that level of interest/engagement), it came down to 2 choices. 
1 - keep buying Volvic or Waitrose Lockhills; or
2 - stump up £300+ for an Osmio counter top RO.

1 was how I rolled for ages as it was cheapest and easy, although I felt bad about the amount of plastic I was recycling.

2 was what I did after saving my pennies, and the timing was good because I got on one of the forum group buys and saved a bit. Was glad I did just before lockdown as it would've been a proper nuisance getting hold of large quantities of bottled water.

As you've seen from the rest of the thread, there are many ways of skinning this particular cat. You just need to figure out which approach suits your budget, interest level, scientific leanings and spare time.

___
Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Gubbo89

hotmetal said:


> I haven't read the whole thread and I expect it's been said already. I also don't want to over complicate making a decent coffee or risking my machine's health. In the end, for me, without any chemistry degree (or even that level of interest/engagement), it came down to 2 choices.
> 1 - keep buying Volvic or Waitrose Lockhills; or
> 2 - stump up £300+ for an Osmio counter top RO.
> 
> 1 was how I rolled for ages as it was cheapest and easy, although I felt bad about the amount of plastic I was recycling.
> 
> 2 was what I did after saving my pennies, and the timing was good because I got on one of the forum group buys and saved a bit. Was glad I did just before lockdown as it would've been a proper nuisance getting hold of large quantities of bottled water.
> 
> As you've seen from the rest of the thread, there are many ways of skinning this particular cat. You just need to figure out which approach suits your budget, interest level, scientific leanings and spare time.
> 
> ___
> Eat, drink and be merry


 So to pick up on point 1 - when using bottled water, did you transfer to a smaller pouring jug in your kitchen or refill from a 5L every time?

I don't have space to keep 5L in the kitchen or convince the wife to start filling our kettle up with a 5L bottle.

And lastly, if you did fill water tank in machine, would this go stale overnight as tap water tends to or would it last better?

These are more of a process question to keep the household harmonious rather than having great coffee and no wife!


----------



## Gubbo89

Sorry to add to the above questions - so taking advice/idea from another thread. With my home water at 273 CaCO3 and using Ashbeck.

If I mixed 9 parts Ashbeck and 1 part home, that would equate to 45 CaCO3 which would be a good starting point?


----------



## MWJB

Gubbo89 said:


> Sorry to add to the above questions - so taking advice/idea from another thread. With my home water at 273 CaCO3 and using Ashbeck.
> 
> If I mixed 9 parts Ashbeck and 1 part home, that would equate to 45 CaCO3 which would be a good starting point?


 What's the alkalinity as CaCO3?


----------



## PPapa

I've been using BWT (Magnesium) jug filter for quite few years (much nicer as water, too), but tried the tap water directly for brewed the other day and it had more pleasant acidity with nicer clarity. I know I am in soft water area with no scale in the kettle, is there anything to look out in terms of damage?

I filled Londinium R with the tap water and flushed it out a bit, but obviously no side-by-side tests are possible to really judge the results.

Detailed report: https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/media/ScottishWater/Water-Quality/Data/27/202001/Water-201902-Milngavie-C3-Last-12-Months.pdf

PH is 8.09

Plus hardness data:

Calcium: 5.68

Magnesium: 0.68

Hardness as mg/l CaCO3: 16.96


----------



## Gubbo89

MWJB said:


> What's the alkalinity as CaCO3?


 Sorry I don't know how to answer this - the chemistry is well over my head.

I just presumed if I can get the CaCO3 value within the parameters (40-50mg/L) that would be a good start.


----------



## MWJB

Gubbo89 said:


> Sorry I don't know how to answer this - the chemistry is well over my head.
> 
> I just presumed if I can get the CaCO3 value within the parameters (40-50mg/L) that would be a good start.


 Sorry, how do you know you have 273 CaCO3? I'd assumed you read it off the water report & this was total hardness?

You don't have to do any chemistry, trust me, I can't do any either .


----------



## Gubbo89

MWJB said:


> Sorry, how do you know you have 273 CaCO3? I'd assumed you read it off the water report & this was total hardness?
> 
> You don't have to do any chemistry, trust me, I can't do any either .


 Ah yes, total hardness 273 CaCO3.

Ca mg/L is 109.2

Cant see anywhere about PH level.

And found from someone else who posted a google doc that Ashbeck is at 20.5 CaCO3.


----------



## MWJB

Gubbo89 said:


> Ah yes, total hardness 273 CaCO3.
> 
> Ca mg/L is 109.2
> 
> Cant see anywhere about PH level.
> 
> And found from someone else who posted a google doc that Ashbeck is at 20.5 CaCO3.


 Really we need to know bicarbonate/alkalinity/KH/temporary hardness.


----------



## Gubbo89

MWJB said:


> Really we need to know bicarbonate/alkalinity/KH/temporary hardness.


 Should that be found on a hardness report or does that need to be tested for with a kit?


----------



## Rob1

PPapa said:


> I've been using BWT (Magnesium) jug filter for quite few years (much nicer as water, too), but tried the tap water directly for brewed the other day and it had more pleasant acidity with nicer clarity. I know I am in soft water area with no scale in the kettle, is there anything to look out in terms of damage?
> 
> I filled Londinium R with the tap water and flushed it out a bit, but obviously no side-by-side tests are possible to really judge the results.
> 
> Detailed report: https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/-/media/ScottishWater/Water-Quality/Data/27/202001/Water-201902-Milngavie-C3-Last-12-Months.pdf
> 
> PH is 8.09
> 
> Plus hardness data:
> 
> Calcium: 5.68
> 
> Magnesium: 0.68
> 
> Hardness as mg/l CaCO3: 16.96


 I couldn't see any info on bicarbonates/carbonates/alkalinity.

Some chloride and sulfate as well as small amounts other nasty things, some residual disinfectant apparently....In terms of damage not really. I'd be careful to not let things like chloride and sulfate build up from steaming...Could still scale depending on alkalinity and boiler temp.


----------



## MWJB

Gubbo89 said:


> Should that be found on a hardness report or does that need to be tested for with a kit?


 Might be on the full water report.

Otherwise use a KH drop kit from Amazon/aquarium supplies shop.


----------



## Gubbo89

MWJB said:


> Might be on the full water report.
> 
> Otherwise use a KH drop kit from Amazon/aquarium supplies shop.


 Thanks for your continued support.

This is about overwhelming for a beginner looking for a better tasting coffee.

Although taste is subjective - are we generally better placed to be using bottled water than tap water or still down to taste preference? (Am ignoring scaling issues at the moment).


----------



## MWJB

Gubbo89 said:


> Thanks for your continued support.
> 
> This is about overwhelming for a beginner looking for a better tasting coffee.
> 
> Although taste is subjective - are we generally better placed to be using bottled water than tap water or still down to taste preference? (Am ignoring scaling issues at the moment).


 Changes in flavour balance are repeatable & predictable. Preference is subjective.

If you are ignoring scaling, make sure your brewing is consistent (say, 7/10 coffees are representative of the notes) and try every water you can. Descale as regularly as you need to. Avoid corrosive waters in an espresso boiler.

If you are manual brewing, the acidity of the coffee will affect the amount of alkalinity (bicarbonate as ion) you might want in the brew water (bright coffees can tolerate more alkalinity).

Bottled water has no specific make up, neither does tap water. Most bottled water on sale compares to typical UK hard water.

Overall, it's really quite simple - if you want to use bottled water Volvic & Waitrose Lockhills are good datums (or any with a bicarbonate level of ~50-75ppm/mg/L on the label).

If you want to explore mixing water you need to know what you're working with in the first place & the KH drop kit is very helpful.

Water affects the taste of the coffee for sure, but it can't fix brewing errors/inconsistency. Identifying roasters & origins that you tend to prefer is the fastest route to better tasting coffee.

Sorry if that last bit sounds a bit vague/a cop-out, but the best tasting water for coffee (excluding boiler requirements) isn't known. Even if it was, I'd carry on mixing my tap water with RO/DI, because it tastes good enough, I have limitless amounts & it's easy to make changes in moments with kitchen scales.


----------



## PPapa

Rob1 said:


> I couldn't see any info on bicarbonates/carbonates/alkalinity.
> Some chloride and sulfate as well as small amounts other nasty things, some residual disinfectant apparently....In terms of damage not really. I'd be careful to not let things like chloride and sulfate build up from steaming...Could still scale depending on alkalinity and boiler temp.


Thanks Rob. I got a water test kit and it looks like KH is around 40 and GH is ~30. Being colour blind isn't great! 









The kettle has always been pretty clean - that's at least 4 years old kettle.


----------



## Rob1

@PPapa

Your water would only scale if alkalinity were higher. Your alkalinity looks quite low so scaling isn't an issue in a brew boiler at least. Even if temperatures rise to 125c it won't scale. The only issue would be if you remove water from a service boiler via steam and never drain and refill it completely. It would take a good 3-5 weeks of steaming for 3 lattes daily before you might start to see scale forming but it's best to draw a few ml off every couple of weeks and test it. If you see KH and GH rising to the point where scale will form at whatever temp your boiler runs at then drain and refill. There are scaling tables by alkalinity, hardess and temperature here: http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water Quality/Water FAQ.pdf

Should add alkalinity might be a little low but if you like the taste keep going, only issue would technically be corrosion concerns. "Damage" might be an extreme term though, in my opinion. I don't think you'd see any issue due to corrosion for a very long time.


----------



## PPapa

Rob1 said:


> @PPapa
> Your water would only scale if alkalinity were higher. Your alkalinity looks quite low so scaling isn't an issue in a brew boiler at least. Even if temperatures rise to 125c it won't scale. The only issue would be if you remove water from a service boiler via steam and never drain and refill it completely. It would take a good 3-5 weeks of steaming for 3 lattes daily before you might start to see scale forming but it's best to draw a few ml off every couple of weeks and test it. If you see KH and GH rising to the point where scale will form at whatever temp your boiler runs at then drain and refill. There are scaling tables by alkalinity, hardess and temperature here: http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water Quality/Water FAQ.pdf
> Should add alkalinity might be a little low but if you like the taste keep going, only issue would technically be corrosion concerns. "Damage" might be an extreme term though, in my opinion. I don't think you'd see any issue due to corrosion for a very long time.


Thanks Rob.

My Londinium R is an HX, so I presume the water in the boiler will always circulate.

I'll get to check KH and GH from the machine next time it's turned on.

I'll also give Volvic another go - haven't tried it since getting an EK. See if there's difference.


----------



## Rob1

PPapa said:


> Thanks Rob.
> 
> My Londinium R is an HX, so I presume the water in the boiler will always circulate.
> 
> I'll get to check KH and GH from the machine next time it's turned on.
> 
> I'll also give Volvic another go - haven't tried it since getting an EK. See if there's difference.


 The hx will be fine just the boiler itself will eventually scale if you steam and don't draw water off.


----------



## Nightrider_1uk

MWJB said:


> Thanks 🙂
> 
> I think if the properties change significantly, then I'll just remove the references to it. A bit of variation is normal for any source, but a big change might be the result of something catastrophic and we'll probably get a heads up on that.


 Purchased (via online shopping due to shielding) some Asda Still and Asda Smart price water this weekend for use in the new Gaggia. The table suggests a 3:1 mix. However the bicarbonate levels are pretty high (166mg and 135mg) which i'm led to believe isn't suitable to mix as per the table. It might be worth the water guru's taking another look at the table and updating. It might also be good idea to include the reference data of the water as a benchmark for future use and comparison. I for one would be happy to post table pictures for data if wanted.

Thanks for all the effort in compiling the table in the first place.

Now need to find another water to try.


----------



## MWJB

Nightrider_1uk said:


> Purchased (via online shopping due to shielding) some Asda Still and Asda Smart price water this weekend for use in the new Gaggia. The table suggests a 3:1 mix. However the bicarbonate levels are pretty high (166mg and 135mg) which i'm led to believe isn't suitable to mix as per the table. It might be worth the water guru's taking another look at the table and updating. It might also be good idea to include the reference data of the water as a benchmark for future use and comparison. I for one would be happy to post table pictures for data if wanted.
> 
> Thanks for all the effort in compiling the table in the first place.
> 
> Now need to find another water to try.


 Table was updated yesterday, Asda Still removed as it is essentially the same as Asda Smart Price.


----------



## Nightrider_1uk

MWJB said:


> Table was updated yesterday, Asda Still removed as it is essentially the same as Asda Smart Price.


 Great thanks MWJB. It it still linked from the first post on this thread. I'm new to making my own espresso and want to treat my machine right.


----------



## MWJB

Nightrider_1uk said:


> Great thanks MWJB. It it still linked from the first post on this thread. I'm new to making my own espresso and want to treat my machine right.


 Yes, still linked.


----------



## Nazmus Salehin

Thanks for the article. It's really helpful.


----------



## Michael87

Can anyone help me interpret my local water report?

I can't find magnesium carbonate or bicarbonate figures anywhere.

I want to know how much my machine is at risk. As I've had some scale issues in the last 6 months.


----------



## Rob1

Your alkalinity is listed as mg/l HCO3......I'll assume that needs to be converted to CaCO3 which would be about 56.8 mg/l.

Hardness is 164.34 mg/l....not sure what their Calcium carbonate figures comes from.

http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water Quality/Water FAQ.pdf

Just bear in mind boiler temperature for brewing is going to be higher than a PID shows due to the offset, which you'll need to check.


----------



## Michael87

So that tells me the maximum non scaling hardness at 115degC and 60alkilinity is 27. And mine is 164. So i need to do something!

Just trying to work out how valuable an ro machine would be


----------



## timb

Thank you for all the info but I'm still struggling to get my head around it all.
I live in Manchester with really soft water - don't know how old the kettle is but still free from scale.
I have always used a Britta because I thought I had too.

Now I'm thinking it might actually be doing more harm that good by making it more corrosive?

What would you do to water like this?



Parameter. 

min

avg

max

unit



Alkalinity as CaCO3.

13.2

14.7

15.6 

mg/l. 



Calcium. 

7.88

10.2

13.7 

mg Ca/l. 



Hardness Total as CaCO3

24 

32 

44 

mg/l. 



Magnesium. 

0.99

1.48

2.40

mg Mg/l



Hydrogen ion (pH). 

7.02

7.25

7.62

pH value


Many Thanks


----------



## MWJB

timb said:


> Thank you for all the info but I'm still struggling to get my head around it all.
> I live in Manchester with really soft water - don't know how old the kettle is but still free from scale.
> I have always used a Britta because I thought I had too.
> 
> Now I'm thinking it might actually be doing more harm that good by making it more corrosive?
> 
> What would you do to water like this?


 You don't need to filter it.

Either use it as is, or if your drinks are all overly bright try adding 40-50mg/L of sodium bicarbonate (get some 0.01g scales & add it in 5l batches).


----------



## timb

MWJB said:


> You don't need to filter it.
> 
> Either use it as is, or if your drinks are all overly bright try adding 40-50mg/L of sodium bicarbonate (get some 0.01g scales & add it in 5l batches).


 Thank you for spelling it out for me  
I'll give some sodium bicarbonate a try.


----------



## mikebeblue

Thank you for this. In my naïveté I had assumed that filtered hard water would be just fine. Reading through this post has alerted me to a lot of things about the most basic ingredient of coffee that we ought to pay more attention to.

I can not reconcile dragging bottles and bottles of water with the effort, carbon footprint and plastic pollution when we have perfectly good water piped into our UK homes. So for me finding an effective way of treating tap water has to be the priority.

This thread therefore has been inspirational. It would be great to get a consolidated version.


----------



## 17845

mikebeblue said:


> This thread therefore has been inspirational. It would be great to get a consolidated version.


 Get an Osio Zero - end of.


----------



## mikebeblue

Hi hubcap,

Thank you for this. You make a good point and I will explore......after I've checked my local (Thames Water) supply, what I get post my already installed water softener and what I get post my already installed carbon filter.

Has anyone tried appropriately treated (free) rainwater?


----------



## mbenney

Hi guys,

After 3 months of guiltily filling my new Rancilio Silvia with London tap water that's harder than the Kray twins, I need to get my act together.

I gave the machine an overnight descale with ecozone coffee machine cleaner, and ran through about 4 tanks worth of clean water.

I then added some Saka bottled water.... being the only thing coming in 5L bottles from my nearest shop.

I've compared it with this Bottled Water Chemistry spreadsheet:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WjIr0q_4lsE96E-3AToMWfxRYqBX67GpiWn4Z35s2PA/edit#gid=0

It seems to have fairly favourable characteristics compared to a lot listed there, but the taste for me isn't that great.

Seems to have an unpleasant aftertaste.

Is there anything in the water composition that would explain that?

Thanks v much


----------



## MWJB

mbenney said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> After 3 months of guiltily filling my new Rancilio Silvia with London tap water that's harder than the Kray twins, I need to get my act together.
> 
> I gave the machine an overnight descale with ecozone coffee machine cleaner, and ran through about 4 tanks worth of clean water.
> 
> I then added some Saka bottled water.... being the only thing coming in 5L bottles from my nearest shop.
> 
> I've compared it with this Bottled Water Chemistry spreadsheet:
> 
> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WjIr0q_4lsE96E-3AToMWfxRYqBX67GpiWn4Z35s2PA/edit#gid=0
> 
> It seems to have fairly favourable characteristics compared to a lot listed there, but the taste for me isn't that great.
> 
> Seems to have an unpleasant aftertaste.
> 
> Is there anything in the water composition that would explain that?
> 
> Thanks v much


 The bicarbonate is on the high side, plus you have a high-ish pH. There's nothing that jumps out as particularly "favourable" about this water.

It'a best to choose your water for its qualities, rather than convenience.


----------



## William P

I live in Norfolk and have gone though the same process with new sage barista machine that stopped working after 10 weeks - it took 5 descaling cycles to clear it up. Switched to Tesco bottled water but I hate the plastic waste and the cost. Have now decided to go with a reverse osmosis system - having read DavecUK's review of the Osmio Zero, I'm buying one and organising another group buy :

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53369-osmio-zero-round-10/?do=embed


----------



## mctrials23

William P said:


> I live in Norfolk and have gone though the same process with new sage barista machine that stopped working after 10 weeks - it took 5 descaling cycles to clear it up. Switched to Tesco bottled water but I hate the plastic waste and the cost. Have now decided to go with a reverse osmosis system - having read DavecUK's review of the Osmio Zero, I'm buying one and organising another group buy :


 Have you considered buying two to get us over the line to 6 people? If you think about it, that would make each one last twice as long. Think of the turtles.


----------



## JJarvis

Does anyone have any experience with BWT's 'individualised' filters for jugs and brewing coffee (filter/immersion only) in a hard water area? In-line filters or an Osmio may be options in the future, but for now a jug seems most suitable for my use and the testimony in the Peak thread is making me hold back on that for now. ZeroWater might be an option, but it would work out a lot dearer.

The most commonly found BWT filter seems to be their Magnesium one (which did well against the Peak, Brita, and un-mixed ZeroWater in this video), but they also have the 'balanced alkalised water', 'magnesium mineralised water + zinc', 'soft filtered water', and 'soft filtered water EXTRA' filters.

I presume the alkalised and added zinc filters can be ignored as far as coffee goes, but the softening ones interest me as I'm in an area with ~240 mg/L CaCO3 total hardness.

I emailed BWT, asking whether there is a hardness above which it is recommended to use the softening-focused filters instead of the added Magnesium one (which is marketed as being for hot beverages) and the reply was:



> The short answer to your question is, the Magnesium Mineralized will be best for what you require.
> 
> The soft water filters are for areas where the hardness is under 100ppm, Birmingham, Cornwall, Scotland etc.
> 
> This will reduce the hardness slightly and remove the bad tastes and odours.
> 
> It will not increase the Magnesium content of the water.


 This has only confused me, since their site seems to describe the 'soft filtered water' and 'soft filtered water EXTRA' like you would expect - as being for hard and extra hard water areas. I linked the individualised filter page and copied the names exactly, so I don't think we could be talking about different filters.

I'll probably bear their expertise (and the apparent preference on here for the magnesium-adding in-line filter) in mind and go for the Magnesium one, but if anyone has any knowledge of the others, I'd love to hear!


----------



## MWJB

JJarvis said:


> ZeroWater might be an option, but it would work out a lot dearer.


 Why would ZeroWater be dearer?


----------



## JJarvis

MWJB said:


> Why would ZeroWater be dearer?


 At 201 - 300 TDS, ZeroWater gives a filter expectancy of 55 to 95 litres.

At 15 - 18 degrees total hardness, BWT gives a filter expectancy of 120 litres.

(Whether these expectancies are accurate is a different matter, but I can't really rely on much else. Does anyone have any experience of both in real life?)

Simplifying my water need to 2 litres per day, a year's supply of BWT would be 6 filters (£33.99 on their site), whereas ZeroWater would be 14 filters at their lowest given capacity (£170 on their site) or 8 at their highest (£89.99).

Jugs are fairly equally priced, with £19.99 for the BWT, and £24.99 for the ZeroWater... but BWT do packages on Amazon - so buying the same jug and 6 'soft' filters would be £10 cheaper than buying them separately on their site, or £20 cheaper with the Magnesium filters.

Aside from cost, I'll additionally say that I've seen mention of some of the same problems (beads, early depleted/fishy smell) as the Peak with the Zero, on this forum and elsewhere, which makes sense considering their similar filtration. I'll be using the water in a shared kettle for now, and this could be a problem. I haven't seen mention of the beads problem, at least, with the BWT on here.

Obviously, with the difference in function of the Zero and BWT, the extra cost of the Zero is not without reason, but for my purposes - hopefully getting serviceable water solely for filter/immersion brewing, I don't think it's yet worth it.


----------



## MWJB

JJarvis said:


> At 201 - 300 TDS, ZeroWater gives a filter expectancy of 55 to 95 litres.
> 
> At 15 - 18 degrees total hardness, BWT gives a filter expectancy of 120 litres.
> 
> (Whether these expectancies are accurate is a different matter, but I can't really rely on much else. Does anyone have any experience of both in real life?)
> 
> Simplifying my water need to 2 litres per day, a year's supply of BWT would be 6 filters (£33.99 on their site), whereas ZeroWater would be 14 filters at their lowest given capacity (£170 on their site) or 8 at their highest (£89.99).
> 
> Jugs are fairly equally priced, with £19.99 for the BWT, and £24.99 for the ZeroWater... but BWT do packages on Amazon - so buying the same jug and 6 'soft' filters would be £10 cheaper than buying them separately on their site, or £20 cheaper with the Magnesium filters.
> 
> Aside from cost, I'll additionally say that I've seen mention of some of the same problems (beads, early depleted/fishy smell) as the Peak with the Zero, on this forum and elsewhere, which makes sense considering their similar filtration. I'll be using the water in a shared kettle for now, and this could be a problem. I haven't seen mention of the beads problem, at least, with the BWT on here.
> 
> Obviously, with the difference in function of the Zero and BWT, the extra cost of the Zero is not without reason, but for my purposes - hopefully getting serviceable water solely for filter/immersion brewing, I don't think it's yet worth it.


 You're mixing units. 18 degrees total hardness is different to 300ppm TDS.

I use Zero at about a litre a day minimum. With both, you would be around 6 filters a year because you're not supposed to use them for more than 2 months without changing the filter & cleaning. However, I'm tight, boil all the output and I use the Zero filters for 3-4months, until the readings start going north of 000, not sure that I have ever let them get as high as 006.

My tap water is 300mg/L total hardness as CaCO3, about 236mg/L TDS.

Never seen beads in the jug, never had fishy smell. I pay £15 per filter in 2 packs. You can get them around £12.50 each (same price as Peak).

The Zero allows infinite adjustments to your tap water, down from raw, easy to mix with tap with regular kitchen scales.

Servicable water for brewed is based mostly on what the brews taste like (assuming good practice, immersion brews allow a lot of flexibility unless looking for absolute best transparency...which there are no guarantees the BWT will deliver, thouhg it might), scaling is much less of an issue as kettles are easy to descale & steel kettles will tolerate lower alkalinity than a boiler. I've had good brews with brighter coffees with raw tap water, so I like the ability to easily tune. I generally stick to about 50mg/L alkalinity.

BWT may work fine for you, but the cost difference in filters only looks like ~£40/year.


----------



## JJarvis

MWJB said:


> You're mixing units. 18 degrees total hardness is different to 300ppm TDS.
> 
> I use Zero at about a litre a day minimum. With both, you would be around 6 filters a year because you're not supposed to use them for more than 2 months without changing the filter & cleaning. However, I'm tight, boil all the output and I use the Zero filters for 3-4months, until the readings start going north of 000, not sure that I have ever let them get as high as 006.
> 
> My tap water is 300mg/L total hardness as CaCO3, about 236mg/L TDS.
> 
> Never seen beads in the jug, never had fishy smell. I pay £15 per filter in 2 packs. You can get them around £12.50 each.
> 
> The Zero allows infinite adjustments to your tap water, down from raw, easy to mix with tap with regular kitchen scales.
> 
> Servicable water for brewed is based mostly on what the brews taste like (assuming good practice, immersion brews allow a lot of flexibility unless looking for absolute best transparency...which there are no guarantees the BWT will deliver, thouhg it might), scaling is much less of an issue as kettles are easy to descale & steel kettles will tolerate lower alkalinity than a boiler. I've had good brews with brighter coffees with raw tap water, so I like the ability to easily tune. I generally stick to about 50mg/L alkalinity.
> 
> BWT may work fine for you, but the cost difference in filters only looks like ~£40/year.


 BWT only gave a range of 15 - 18 d total hardness for their expected capacity. Because my water is softer than that, and because of the 2 month regulation fitting perfectly, I figured it was fair to compare that to the range ZeroWater gave for my actual hardness - since it would be favourable to the ZeroWater.

It's great to hear that you're able to get so much use from a single ZeroWater filter compared to what even they advertise. I was going off anecdotes like this (and this was posted just a few hours after my initial comment in this thread) on the forum, and reviews on Lakeland (while ignoring negatives about the taste of the water) and Amazon to see how accurate their figures are considered and any issues. Many said they were either accurate or too optimistic, but you're the first person I've seen say that they got that much more out of it than ZeroWater claim.

I will look more into the ZeroWater because of your comments. I also just saw an Italian review of the BWT mention leaking beads. If it's a problem I'd have to put up with with any jug, Peak and ZeroWater are both more in contention.

As an aside; how do you put water into the jug? Could some of the bead problems simply be that others are filling it up too aggressively with their faucet or something? I see that there's a small kind of catchment area around the filter on the Zero which could slightly mitigate aggression depending on how someone fills it, but the Peak filter is directly below the smaller input window.


----------



## MWJB

JJarvis said:


> As an aside; how do you put water into the jug? Could some of the bead problems simply be that others are filling it up too aggressively with their faucet or something? I see that there's a small kind of catchment area around the filter on the Zero which could slightly mitigate aggression depending on how someone fills it, but the Peak filter is directly below the smaller input window.


 I use a gooseneck kettle to fill the Zero jug & I never pour directly onto the filter medium (it says to avoid doing this in the instructions).


----------



## DavecUK

I always enjoyed a Coffee at Marks (and hope to again soon), didn't realise he was slowly poisoning me with those 3 or 4 month old filters though


----------



## Jony

DavecUK said:


> I always enjoyed a Coffee at Marks (and hope to again soon), didn't realise he was slowly poisoning me with those 3 or 4 month old filters though


 What about a tag along 😂


----------



## skylark

Is there any info on tds meters on the forum or can anyone recommend a decent meter?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MWJB

skylark said:


> Is there any info on tds meters on the forum or can anyone recommend a decent meter?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 Don't bother with a TDS meter, get a GH & KH (total hardness & alkalinity) drop kit.


----------



## skylark

Too complicated for me, just a dip n check one that's reusable is what I'm thinking.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MWJB

skylark said:


> Too complicated for me, just a dip n check one that's reusable is what I'm thinking.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 It doesn't tell you anything useful. TDS is just the total minerals dissolved into the water. KH/Alkalinity is one of the things you really need to know when evaluating water and it's not included in TDS.

Once you have used a drop kit a couple of times, it doesn't take long and you don't need to keep taking readings if using the same water.


----------



## skylark

MWJB said:


> It doesn't tell you anything useful. TDS is just the total minerals dissolved into the water. KH/Alkalinity is one of the things you really need to know when evaluating water and it's not included in TDS.
> Once you have used a drop kit a couple of times, it doesn't take long and you don't need to keep taking readings if using the same water.


Thanks, taken onboard. I just need a baseline for my current Northumbria supplied water supply. Have subscribed to the Osmio group buy but who knows when that will come along and am considering upgrading my BE machine to a more grown up prosumer appliance this side of Christmas so essentially want to be on a more knowledgable footing before that is in place. Still go with a kit?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rob1

skylark said:


> Thanks, taken onboard. I just need a baseline for my current Northumbria supplied water supply. Have subscribed to the Osmio group buy but who knows when that will come along and am considering upgrading my BE machine to a more grown up prosumer appliance this side of Christmas so essentially want to be on a more knowledgable footing before that is in place. Still go with a kit?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 What is it that you're trying to figure out?


----------



## skylark

Just trying to ensure that my yet to be purchased machine gets a good start in life. It'll be like a new addition to he family, hi knows what we've been drinking for years. Water up here is hard, scale builds up around tap ends. My Sage BE has been running on this stuff for the past two years with regular filters and descaling. Don't really want to damage a new machine from the outset hence an osmio zero on order. Just keeping up with the times. It makes interesting reading !

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rob1

skylark said:


> Just trying to ensure that my yet to be purchased machine gets a good start in life. It'll be like a new addition to he family, hi knows what we've been drinking for years. Water up here is hard, scale builds up around tap ends. My Sage BE has been running on this stuff for the past two years with regular filters and descaling. Don't really want to damage a new machine from the outset hence an osmio zero on order. Just keeping up with the times. It makes interesting reading !
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 You're getting an Osmio and then what, remineralising or mixing with tap water?

Either way a TDS meter will not be useful. As said a KH:GH drop kit is what you need. Your water supplier should be able to issue you with a detailed water report.


----------



## skylark

TBH that's as far as I've got, this is all really interesting stuff and without knowing how my waters actually constituted then who knows what the next step will be. As for a report from NW, I'd prefer to establish those facts myself as best I can hence the questions.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rob1

skylark said:


> TBH that's as far as I've got, this is all really interesting stuff and without knowing how my waters actually constituted then who knows what the next step will be. As for a report from NW, I'd prefer to establish those facts myself as best I can hence the questions.
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 You don't trust your water supplier to provide you with accurate information?

A KH:GH kit will tell you fairly accurately your hardness and alkalinity, it can't tell you what those values are from. It also can't tell you if your tap water contains chlorine, chlorides, sulphates, sodium, sulfite, nitrates and whatever else your tap water contains. There are probably kits you can buy to test for other things though if you really want to go down that route. You'll have to do a lot of testing over a period of time to understand how your tap water varies.


----------



## skylark

"You don't trust your water supplier to provide you with accurate information?"

That's not what I"m saying. For the purpose of understanding I would like to establish as much of the information myself. It's an education ... thanks for your contributions, I'll take them into account as I go along.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## skylark

So, my osmio is running fine and providing the water for my Sage BE. My tap water was tested at 7.46 with initial TDS at 130ppm which all seems to be fine. The osmio, after remineralisation shows a TDS of 11ppm. But, with a new machine looming, is this water going to be good enough. It surely tastes a lot better out if the Osmio but what more can I be doing or adding to prime a new machine with?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

skylark said:


> So, my osmio is running fine and providing the water for my Sage BE. My tap water was tested at 7.46 with initial TDS at 130ppm which all seems to be fine. The osmio, after remineralisation shows a TDS of 11ppm. But, with a new machine looming, is this water going to be good enough. It surely tastes a lot better out if the Osmio but what more can I be doing or adding to prime a new machine with?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


 I think you can just add 80mg of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) if you really want to. I'm not sure if this is required with the re-mineralisation cartridges.

@Jason11 - do you add bicarb AND also use the remineralisation stuff from Osmio?


----------



## skylark

80mg ?? You sure, in what proportions ?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I think you can just add 80mg of sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) if you really want to. I'm not sure if this is required with the re-mineralisation cartridges.
> 
> @Jason11 - do you add bicarb AND also use the remineralisation stuff from Osmio?


Yes I add 80mg of bicarb and my Osmio has the remineralisation filter/cartridge in it. I've not done any testing to see the make up of the water it produces though. I've just gone by the advice given in DaveC's review.

Would be interesting to know though.


----------



## Jason11

skylark said:


> 80mg ?? You sure, in what proportions ?
> 
> Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


I use a 5 litre water bottle and put 3 x 1 litre jugs of Osmio water in followed by 1 litre with 0.32g bicarb mixed in to it then give it a good shake.


----------



## skylark

So you decant the treated water and retreat it? I'm not that keen on keeping water standing for too long and am presently just using remineralised RO water as I need it which means the water is always 'fresh' if you get my meaning. I DO have the empty mineral cartridge to hand. Suppose I could treat the whole machine tank at one go, it's 2L capacity and top it off with RO? Not that it'll get a good stirring though. And, that 2L would moreorless last me around 3 days in the tank. I"m not sure I'd want it to stand that long.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Jason11

If you mean it gets treated with the remineralisation filter 1st and then bicarb after I've withdrawn it from the Osmio then yes.

I generally use the 4 litres up every 3-4 days so it doesn't sit around for too long.


----------



## skylark

Thanks, understood. Not sure I'd want to decant it out then in though. Does it make a difference? I'm not only talking taste here, I"m more concerned with the overall compatibility if the produced water with the innards of an espresso machine!


----------



## Jason11

I'm not sure if you mean putting it through the Osmio twice but no I don't. It gets remineralised in the Osmio then topped up a bit with bicarb when I mix it in an old 5 litre water bottle. This then gets poured in to the machines feed tank as and when it needs it.


----------



## Rob1

There's a calculator in my signature and pinned to this forum sub-section, as well as calculating max permissible hardness before scaling occurs at various temperatures depending on alkalinity and there's also a remineralisation sheet that can be used to calculate additives for use with DI or RO water either with concentrates or by adding things directly to water.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Jason11 said:


> Yes I add 80mg of bicarb and my Osmio has the remineralisation filter/cartridge in it. I've not done any testing to see the make up of the water it produces though. I've just gone by the advice given in DaveC's review.
> 
> Would be interesting to know though.


 If you want to test your water, I have acquarium fish strips, TDS and PH meters. Just pop by. 😊


----------



## Jason11

MediumRoastSteam said:


> If you want to test your water, I have acquarium fish strips, TDS and PH meters. Just pop by.


Nice one  I may take you up on that as it'll be interesting to find out. Thanks


----------



## skylark

So ... back to this old chestnut which i've not yet sorted.

The Osmio runs WITH a remineralisation cartridge so i'm looking at the amount of bicard i'd need to mix with the 5L container of tapwater each time, figures seem to be 0.4g or 4g to treat 5L? What does that do to my water? I know i've asked this many times but its still not clear (my head that is, not the water!)

And, i'm sure i've seen a recent post which advised against RO water due to loss of tooth enamel, something to do with no flouride in the water. I cant seem to find i anywhere though. Does adding bicarb affect anything other then the jquality of water being used for the coffee extraction? We do use the Osmio as a kettle, maybe the occasional tapwater tea/instant would be advisable before our teeth drop out altogether, lol!


----------



## MWJB

skylark said:


> So ... back to this old chestnut which i've not yet sorted.
> 
> The Osmio runs WITH a remineralisation cartridge so i'm looking at the amount of bicard i'd need to mix with the 5L container of tapwater each time, figures seem to be 0.4g or 4g to treat 5L? What does that do to my water? I know i've asked this many times but its still not clear (my head that is, not the water!)
> 
> And, i'm sure i've seen a recent post which advised against RO water due to loss of tooth enamel, something to do with no flouride in the water. I cant seem to find i anywhere though. Does adding bicarb affect anything other then the jquality of water being used for the coffee extraction? We do use the Osmio as a kettle, maybe the occasional tapwater tea/instant would be advisable before our teeth drop out altogether, lol!


 What is the alkalinity of the water after remineralisation?

Water make up affects taste, not extraction.


----------



## Rob1

skylark said:


> So ... back to this old chestnut which i've not yet sorted.
> 
> The Osmio runs WITH a remineralisation cartridge so i'm looking at the amount of bicard i'd need to mix with the 5L container of tapwater each time, figures seem to be 0.4g or 4g to treat 5L? What does that do to my water? I know i've asked this many times but its still not clear (my head that is, not the water!)


 The remineralisation cartridge also adds alkalinity doesn't it?

There's a 10x difference between 0.4g and 4g....so what are you getting these figures from?

If you need fluoride it's a good idea to get some, you will probably be aware of whether or not you need it as the dentist will probably have mentioned something.


----------



## skylark

Is it 0.08g per litre or 0.8? Some say to dose the full amount going into an Osmio is 5L, others say do 4L, why isn't clear ..


----------



## Jason11

skylark said:


> Is it 0.08g per litre or 0.8? Some say to dose the full amount going into an Osmio is 5L, others say do 4L, why isn't clear ..


If you're talking about adding bicarb it's 0.08g per litre not 0.8g. And don't add it to the water going into the Osmio filler tank but from the water you draw from the Osmio.


----------



## Rob1

skylark said:


> Is it 0.08g per litre or 0.8? Some say to dose the full amount going into an Osmio is 5L, others say do 4L, why isn't clear ..


 I don't know it depends what you're going for and how much water you're remineralising.

0.4g sodium bicarbonate in 5 litres will give an alkalinity of about 50mg/l. In 4 litres almost 60mg/l

For 0.8 obviously 100mg/l and 120mg/l respectively.

Unless my maths is wrong. To be honest I haven't performed any calculations and have just relied on my spreadsheet/calculator function being accurate.

In 1 litres of water 0.08g (8mg) will give an alkalinity of just about 49mg/l which I suspect is where you're getting your 0.08 figure from.


----------



## AJP80

In case it's helpful, alkalinity of the first litre filtered through the Osmio is so low I tend to ignore it when remineralising. Using a drop kit, I measure it as below 8mg/l (closer to 4 if I'm not mistaken), and that's after remineralising by Osmio (my cartridge may be spent).


----------



## Jason11

AJP80 said:


> In case it's helpful, alkalinity of the first litre filtered through the Osmio is so low I tend to ignore it when remineralising. Using a drop kit, I measure it as below 8mg/l (closer to 4 if I'm not mistaken), and that's after remineralising by Osmio (my cartridge may be spent).


How long have you been using the Osmio for? I've been thinking that the remineralisation filter will put less and less back in to the water over time.


----------



## AJP80

I've had it about 6 months and go through about 20l a day. That said, even when new, the first litre would measure as approx 8 TDS on one of those cheapo TDS meters (which was actually pretty accurate when tested against a known quantity (Third Wave Water)). That's with an input TDS of about 280, so I suspect my Osmio was supplied with a blank 'remineralisation' cartridge.


----------



## skylark

Pretty easy to spot a blank .. it doesn't rattle!


----------



## AJP80

skylark said:


> Pretty easy to spot a blank .. it doesn't rattle!


 It rattles, so must just be spent, although I can't say it did much when it was new. I have a new one that I'll install once I've sanitised the Osmio and I'll see what effect that has. For now, I would say not to rely on the cartridge alone for making water boiler safe, and possibly that its contribution can be ignored when remineralising, at least for alkalinity.


----------



## skylark

Yes, I'm still confused as to whether or not the remineralisation is worthwhile or not. I think@DavecUK said he was preparing some testing on all things osmio regarding this aspect. Mine Osmio came with a requested empty mineral cartridge so once there's some news I could just swap out the actual cartridge in favour of this empty one. But, I'm still in the fence as to whether the Osmio is ok to use as drinking water on a permanent basis. I'm not treating it in any other way other than the remineralisation cartridge which does increase my TDS levels to 11ppm from an initial start level of 134 ppm so something IS going back into the water but whether that is enough to make it boiler safe I've no idea !

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## AJP80

They don't appear to do much, especially when you consider r.o. systems are about 94% efficient (or so I read, although I may have misunderstood one of Dave's comments), so much of the 8 TDS measurement I see with a fresh tank is the 6% of the 280 TDS tap water I feed it.


----------



## skylark

Ok, I am following so far 😏. But, do you treat your water in any other way? That's what I find confusing ... doesn't seem to be a yay or nay on this.


----------



## DavecUK

skylark said:


> I'm still in the fence as to whether the Osmio is ok to use as drinking water on a permanent basis.


 *Perhaps some questions to help you decide for yourself.*

1. Do you eat your dark green leafy veg

2. Do you brush with a fluoride toothpaste and don't rinse after brushing

If the answer to the above is yes...then your likely to be getting all the good minerals and calcium.

*Some things to think about.*

1. How do people in naturally soft water areas get on

2. Some people have their water supplied by desalination systems (RO or evaporators), people who work on cruise ships drink nothing else. Israel has 55% supplied by desalination I think

3. Not all water authorities add fluoride, you can check for yours

4. 6.5 ph is as acidic as milk and ph is a logarithmic scale

5. My kids have drunk nothing else their whole lives and my wife and I have drunk it for over 20 years...so far skelegrow (as per Harry Potter) has not been required, and we all still have our teeth.

You have to make your own decision and in that decision read as much information as you can. Look at what people have to gain with their "scientific" advice and whether they are quoting fact or dogma. Even fluoride addition to water evokes shouts of heretic to those who don't actually believe it does much good and their scientific papers are ignored.

Lots of strange beliefs in society that don't seem to be born out by real life when we look around. Like eating fat makes you fat, so now everyone eats everything low fat, supermarket full of the stuff and yet we have huge rates of Obesity, high rates of Diabetes (type 2)...strange when most people are low or no fat where possible....you would have thought it would have dropped. ...Couldn't be healthy carbs and sugars could it? Or that little chestnut, obesity causes diabetes...perhaps pre-diabetes (undiagnosed) causes obesity?


----------



## AJP80

skylark said:


> Ok, I am following so far 😏. But, do you treat your water in any other way? That's what I find confusing ... doesn't seem to be a yay or nay on this.


 Ah, sorry - yes I follow Dave's advice and add a dash of bicarbonate for espresso, not much mind, just enough to hit the SCAA recommended alkalinity (equivalent to about 40 mg/l).

For Pourover I forget what I target, but I know it matches Third Wave Water, which is quite hard (perhaps 151ppm). And I use magnesium sulphate and calcium citrate. The latter doesn't scale but does get a bit pongy if left too long in the summer but that's not a problem for me as I go through the gallon a make in two days, max.

For Pourover I do it because I like the taste. For espresso it's to protect the boiler.


----------



## Power Freak

AJP80 said:


> I've had it about 6 months and go through about 20l a day. That said, even when new, the first litre would measure as approx 8 TDS on one of those cheapo TDS meters (which was actually pretty accurate when tested against a known quantity (Third Wave Water)). That's with an input TDS of about 280, so I suspect my Osmio was supplied with a blank 'remineralisation' cartridge.


 You'll know if it's a blank cartridge if you take it out because you won't hear/see the "beads" inside.

On the TDS levels out of the osmio: it'll depend on the water you put in it. My tap water is about 350-400 tds - out of the osmio I get around 30-50 tds. Testing for GH:KH it gets me just slightly below "boiler safe" levels, but not enough for me to be too concerned with. I don't bother adding anything as for the coffees I drink I prefer lower GH/KH anyway.

The remineralization cartridge does "wear out" though, if you've not changed it in 6 months it will likely be depleted. It seems to reduce the GH quite significantly when it gets old, the KH seems to be more determined by the filtering itself. It will increase slightly when the filters get older, but you might notice a "chalky" "flat" taste before then. My filters need replacing every 6 months for my water/usage rate. (These are based on my tests for just my unit/water/etc. yours might behave differently)

Regarding the health "concerns" of RO: I believe there is a confusion between RO water and Ultra-pure water that caused the issue in the past. Ultra-pure is a whole different ball game and requires a lab, your RO unit won't get anywhere near that level of purification. Drinking (only) ultra-pure is an issue and will do you great harm. To put it into perspective if you take an "average" bottled water you're only likely to get around 10% RDA of calcium from the water (the other minerals less) - if removing this much calcium puts you into a "dangerous" territory I think you might have other issues in your diet that may require attention first. I'd recommend doing your own research if you are concerned but stick to peer reviewed scientific publications not some random "healthy living" website.


----------



## AJP80

Today I sanitised my Osmio Zero, thoroughly flushed out all of the sanitiser (Milton) and installed fresh cartridges (including a fresh remineralisation cartridge). I then did a GH and KH test (AquaCare test kit) and the results are below. I should note that I tested the first litre filtered from a fresh tank of tap water after having run about three litres of tap water through the new cartridges (each litre was the first of a full input tank). In other words, the water I tested should be near enough the first filtered litre of water from an input tank with 290ppm tap water.

KH - less than 8.9

GH - 8.9.

The remineralisation cartridge appears to do next to nothing. I would need to test, but it might have an impact if water is left in contact with the remineralisation cartridges fo a period of time e.g. overnight.

It would also be worth doing the test with no remineralisation cartridge, with all else staying the same.


----------



## skylark

You sure it's plugged in correctly? My remain cartridge definitely does add around 8% of the original TDs back although tbh I can't see a need and most probably will insert the blank cartridge when the filters pop up a prompt for a change.

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## AJP80

skylark said:


> You sure it's plugged in correctly? My remain cartridge definitely does add around 8% of the original TDs back although tbh I can't see a need and most probably will insert the blank cartridge when the filters pop up a prompt for a change.


 Yes, fitted properly, so far as I can tell. I recall reading that the cartridge contains carbonates (calcium and magnesium), which have very low solubility in water at normal temperatures and pressures. I don't think the Osmio remineralises using high pressure; I assume it relies on contact time. That would explain the minimal impact of the cartridge on a fresh tank of filtered watered.


----------



## skylark

If that's the case, my TDs change is immediate between running with/without cartridge. Not checked for a few refills now so it's possible it's adding more back than the 8% now if it's solubility over time increases. Is that a good or bad thing, who knows?

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


----------



## Rob1

AJP80 said:


> Yes, fitted properly, so far as I can tell. I recall reading that the cartridge contains carbonates (calcium and magnesium), which have very low solubility in water at normal temperatures and pressures. I don't think the Osmio remineralises using high pressure; I assume it relies on contact time. That would explain the minimal impact of the cartridge on a fresh tank of filtered watered.


 I don't think it's carbonates. They talk about ceramic balls. In a video about it they refer to silver impregnation and bonding to carbon. I haven no idea what it is or what it adds to the water or in what quantity. The only info I've been able to find relating to calcium ceramic balls are those made from Calcium Sulfite or natural stone like these https://bestnpacking.en.made-in-china.com/product/UsjxMnKdnRVL/China-Mineral-Water-Filters-Pearl-Calcium-Alkaline-Ceramic-Ball.html


----------



## AJP80

I think I read "bonded with carbon" as being carbonate. The text didn't mention silver impregnation. But at any rate it sounds like I confused the two (carbonates and bonded with carbon).


----------



## AJP80

I've just tested with/ without remin cartridge. Again same protocol as before so I'm testing, in each case, the first litre of filtered water from a full input tank with tap water at 280ppm. However, I only tested for hardness using the cheapo TDS meter.

With remineralisation cartridge - 13 ppm

Without (with blank "remineralisation" cartridge inserted) - 8 ppm.

No point to make, just for information.


----------



## GazRef

Have been lurking the RO threads and all the talk of Ashbeck water I picked some up and was really impressed with the taste vs my BWT. BWT filter provides improvement over straight from the tap but would like to know what Im working with as I'm considering an RO system. 2yr old water report on suppliers website classes the water as "slightly hard".

What's the value recommended test kit for water? Would like to see the results of tap, tap bwt and ashbeck.


----------



## MWJB

GazRef said:


> Have been lurking the RO threads and all the talk of Ashbeck water I picked some up and was really impressed with the taste vs my BWT. BWT filter provides improvement over straight from the tap but would like to know what Im working with as I'm considering an RO system. 2yr old water report on suppliers website classes the water as "slightly hard".
> 
> What's the value recommended test kit for water? Would like to see the results of tap, tap bwt and ashbeck.


 Is this for brewed? Ashbeck is low in alkalinity (KH) & pH for boiler water. You can add sodium bicarbonate to it if necessary.

NTlabs, API & Red Sea do drop kits, a GH & KH kit would be best, but a KH only kit would also work well.

What's the alkalinity of your tap water? There may be more in depth report from your supplier.


----------



## GazRef

ph of tap water is 7.3 as per 2 year old report. Does RO water land you somewhere around the ashbeck or is that after you add the bicarb? Running a descale this week so picked up a bottle to fill the boiler post.

Report below



Substance

Typical Value

UK/European limit

Unit

Aluminium

10

200

µg Al/l

Calcium

41.4

-

mg Ca/l

Residual chlorine - free

0.23

-

mg/l Cl2

Residual chlorine - total

0.34

-

mg/l Cl2

Colour

1.1

20

mg/l Pt/Co Scale

Conductivity

345

2500

µS/cm

Copper

0.0319

2

mg Cu/l

EColi

0

0

no/100ml

Fluoride

0.08

1.5

mg F/l

Iron

9.1

200

µg Fe/l

Lead

1.28

10

µg Pb/l

Magnesium

7.2

-

mg Mg/l

Manganese

0.7

50

µg Mn/I

Nitrate

7.66

50

mg NO3/l

Nitrite

0.002

0.5

mg NO2/l

Sodium

27.3

200

mg Na/l

TotalColiforms

0

0

no/100ml

Turbidity

0.19

4

NTU

pH (Hydrogen Ion Conc.)

7.3

6.5 - 9.5

pH Units


----------



## Hallett

I've just got a quick question about the table of mixing waters to make safe boiler water, do we know what the make ups were at the time the table was made? I've just received my lelit Mara x and I am going to run 6 parts Tesco ashbeck to 1 part Buxton, I have taken photos of the make up of both bottles, is there a simple way of adding the figures together, eg dividing the buxton figure by 6 and adding it to the ashbeck figure? Or is that to simple? The first photo is the ashbeck and the second the Buxton, thanks,

Dan


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## MWJB

See 2nd row down.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1sFlna9NfoA-DjU3zXJg2Byxp-Z37FzQwQ9TU-WqHdj0/edit?usp=sharing


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## Hallett

@MWJB thanks very much 👍


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## ryand

Hi - I'm finally getting round to sorting out the filter tap that was already plumbed in to a house we moved to last year. I'm armed with a drop test kit, a Thames Water report and a load of forum search results.

What I'm struggling to find much on is what to do when your filter is causing TH to drop lower than KH per the drop test kit. This is for an espresso machine, just a Gaggia Classic so I can descale if needed.

Should I aim to keep the highest of TH / KH (as measured) to c. 50ppm? Or a different approach? What are the consequences of the filter appearing to strip out a load of the TH?

Test results:

Tap water (matches Thames Water report nicely):
- TH 19 (= 339ppm CaCO3)
- KH 16 (= 286ppm CaCO3)

Brita filter 30% bypass (recommended per manual):
- TH 5 (= 89ppm CaCO3)
- KH 5 (= 89ppm CaCO3)

Brita filter 20% bypass:
- TH 4 (= 71ppm CaCO3)
- KH 5 (= 89ppm CaCO3)

Brita 10% bypass:
- TH 2 (= 36ppm CaCO3)
- KH 3.5 (= 62ppm CaCO3)


----------



## Rob1

ryand said:


> Hi - I'm finally getting round to sorting out the filter tap that was already plumbed in to a house we moved to last year. I'm armed with a drop test kit, a Thames Water report and a load of forum search results.
> 
> What I'm struggling to find much on is what to do when your filter is causing TH to drop lower than KH per the drop test kit. This is for an espresso machine, just a Gaggia Classic so I can descale if needed.
> 
> Should I aim to keep the highest of TH / KH (as measured) to c. 50ppm? Or a different approach? What are the consequences of the filter appearing to strip out a load of the TH?
> 
> Test results:
> 
> Tap water (matches Thames Water report nicely):
> - TH 19 (= 339ppm CaCO3)
> - KH 16 (= 286ppm CaCO3)
> 
> Brita filter 30% bypass (recommended per manual):
> - TH 5 (= 89ppm CaCO3)
> - KH 5 (= 89ppm CaCO3)
> 
> Brita filter 20% bypass:
> - TH 4 (= 71ppm CaCO3)
> - KH 5 (= 89ppm CaCO3)
> 
> Brita 10% bypass:
> - TH 2 (= 36ppm CaCO3)
> - KH 3.5 (= 62ppm CaCO3)


 10% bypass is best but will still scale.

Not sure what you mean by "what to do when the filter causes th (gh?) to drop lower than kh".

The consequences to the filter, I imagine, will be a shorter life.


----------



## MWJB

ryand said:


> Hi - I'm finally getting round to sorting out the filter tap that was already plumbed in to a house we moved to last year. I'm armed with a drop test kit, a Thames Water report and a load of forum search results.
> 
> What I'm struggling to find much on is what to do when your filter is causing TH to drop lower than KH per the drop test kit. This is for an espresso machine, just a Gaggia Classic so I can descale if needed.
> 
> Should I aim to keep the highest of TH / KH (as measured) to c. 50ppm? Or a different approach? What are the consequences of the filter appearing to strip out a load of the TH?


 Your TH doesn't need to be higher than your KH, keep the KH between ~40 & 60mg/L


----------



## ryand

Rob1 said:


> Not sure what you mean by "what to do when the filter causes th (gh?) to drop lower than kh".


 I just meant, the ratios / recipes that I usually see mentioned always seem to be TH>KH (e.g. TH 100ppm / KH 50ppm). As I can't seem to do that with the filter currently plumbed in, I didn't know which side of the equation to try and match.

The next response answers that though:



MWJB said:


> Your TH doesn't need to be higher than your KH, keep the KH between ~40 & 60mg/L


 There is a 0% bypass option which I haven't tried. Think I'll go with 10% for now.

Thanks for the replies both!

Incidentally, the house also has a salt block water softener for the rest of the house (non-drinking), which only takes hardness down to TH 180ppm / KH 250ppm. Not sure if that's working as designed, but no wonder we still get scale in showers etc. And while I had the drop kit out, I also tested the filtered fridge water dispenser. Basically the same result as raw tap water, just tastes a bit nicer. Been playing with coloured vials for half the day now and am getting weird looks from the rest of the family, so better give it a rest...


----------



## Rob1

Maybe mix 0% and 10% for 40mg/l KH, could go higher if you want to 50mg/l too and you might also avoid scale buildup depending on GH.


----------



## ryand

I think it's a stepless adjustment so in theory I could go for 5% to get the end result straight from the tap. More testing required then.

GH will presumably be even lower if I do that (<30ppm) - wouldn't that mean no scale?


----------



## Rob1

ryand said:


> I think it's a stepless adjustment so in theory I could go for 5% to get the end result straight from the tap. More testing required then.
> 
> GH will presumably be even lower if I do that (<30ppm) - wouldn't that mean no scale?


 It depends on alkalinity and temperature too.

PS what is the resolution of your test kit? Eg 1 drop in 5ml = ?x and 2 drops =x. I ask because 30% and 20% are almost the same. The difference between 1 drop and the next determines the accuracy of the test. You can increase the accuracy by increasing the amount of sample water e.g. 20ml in a cup Instead of 5ml in a tube (4 drops is equivalent to 1 drop). You just need to stir it while slowly adding drops.


----------



## ryand

Rob1 said:


> It depends on alkalinity and temperature too.
> 
> PS what is the resolution of your test kit? Eg 1 drop in 5ml = ?x and 2 drops =x. I ask because 30% and 20% are almost the same. The difference between 1 drop and the next determines the accuracy of the test. You can increase the accuracy by increasing the amount of sample water e.g. 20ml in a cup Instead of 5ml in a tube (4 drops is equivalent to 1 drop). You just need to stir it while slowly adding drops.


 Sorry - didn't see the PS until now.

I doubled the resolution of the test kit to 2 drops per 20ml, but I agree the steps between 20% and 30% look a bit odd. I did repeat the tests, but got the same result.

I've been using it on 10% since the above post, and trying to compare back to back shots vs Lockhills. I think I'm not able to run an accurate side by side test though - inconsistencies in technique, plus they're at vastly different temperatures to drink by the time ice replaced the boiler water. Haven't yet preferred the Brita water though. But guess that would be unlikely anyway.

Would you expect it to be good drinking water? I don't mind it, but my wife tastes an off flavour vs Lockhills & tap (blind test). Am wondering if it's because it's being aggressively pushed through the filter in order to strip out enough of the scaling stuff.


----------



## Aldaris3000

Hi there! I just started to learn more about water and I have seen your excel about how to mix the waters(like what ratio). Could I ask is it still the best recommendation? I mean I have seen that over time some minerals are changing in bottled water and I have no idea if Volvic or Ashbeck has changed since 2020. Thanks for the answer!!


----------



## Al Grandé

Mister_Tad said:


> The online listing says Stretton Hills - https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/essen


 Ride passed the bottling plant, on me bike...they have a tap and sink, that's open to the public, to fill your own containers on weekdays, but not since covid....


----------



## cuprajake

Fwiw i decided on remineralised ro water, but im lucky enough to have an ro station from my fish days.









Then 10ml into 1l of water.


----------



## MWJB

Aldaris3000 said:


> Hi there! I just started to learn more about water and I have seen your excel about how to mix the waters(like what ratio). Could I ask is it still the best recommendation? I mean I have seen that over time some minerals are changing in bottled water and I have no idea if Volvic or Ashbeck has changed since 2020. Thanks for the answer!!


 Water make up changes a little seasonally. If you buy some Volvic show us the label & I'll confirm amy changes.


----------



## Aldaris3000

I'm quite new here so I'm not sure how to post picture but here are the details from it:

Volvic: calcium 12, sulphates 9, magnesium 8, sodium 12, bicarbonates 74, potassium 6, silica 32, chlorides 15, nitrates 7.3, dry residue 180c: 130mg/litre ph7

Tesco Ashbeck: calcium 11, magnesium 3.5, potassium 2.5, sodium 10, bicarbonate 25, sulphate 11, nitrate 15, chloride 14, dry residue 180C 85mg, ph6.2

I'm mixing them 1:1 ratio as it is in your excel, please let me know if I should change something.

Thank you!


----------



## MWJB

Aldaris3000 said:


> I'm quite new here so I'm not sure how to post picture but here are the details from it:
> 
> Volvic: calcium 12, sulphates 9, magnesium 8, sodium 12, bicarbonates 74, potassium 6, silica 32, chlorides 15, nitrates 7.3, dry residue 180c: 130mg/litre ph7
> 
> Tesco Ashbeck: calcium 11, magnesium 3.5, potassium 2.5, sodium 10, bicarbonate 25, sulphate 11, nitrate 15, chloride 14, dry residue 180C 85mg, ph6.2
> 
> I'm mixing them 1:1 ratio as it is in your excel, please let me know if I should change something.
> 
> Thank you!


 No, those are the values that I used.


----------



## Aldaris3000

Thank you for confirming, I will look forward how does it change the taste as well. I was brewing coffee with double-filtered water(tap water filtered with Brita and then the Sage filter inside the tank) and it was always like OK. Unfortunately my tap water is quite hard (on the test that Sage sent me the hardness was 4 out of 5)

Many thanks again!!


----------



## MWJB

Aldaris3000 said:


> Thank you for confirming, I will look forward how does it change the taste as well. I was brewing coffee with double-filtered water(tap water filtered with Brita and then the Sage filter inside the tank) and it was always like OK. Unfortunately my tap water is quite hard (on the test that Sage sent me the hardness was 4 out of 5)
> 
> Many thanks again!!


 I don't generally make recommendations on taste, water for boilers is based on scaling & corrosion potential.

You, being in charge of the bean choice, brewer/machine, grinder & technique have the greatest impact on taste.


----------



## Stewart Mckinnon

As a new member this is very helpful - many thanks


----------



## Michael87

Looking at current options for home delivery from ocado: are either of these suitable?

M&S Still Scottish Mountain Water (pic 1)

Ocado Still Water (pic 2)


----------



## Like Medium Strong Coffee

We have a whole house water softener (salt blocks) including kitchen. We have been using this for drinking, cooking and also for beverages during the last 6 years. The utility has a hard water tap and is not convenient to draw water every time.

The tap water hardness is 318, dividing it by 2.175 and adding the existing sodium gets us to ~185.

The drop test shows the following :

Kitchen 1 drop GH turns to light green ~ 17.9 and 1 drop of KH turns it to blue ~ 17.9. The attached image is the drop test results of the kitchen tap.

The utility hard water tap requires 20 drops of GH to green yielding ~ 358, while 1 drop of KH at 17.9. This takes the sodium content past 200!

The TDS is higher at 331.

We are no longer sure if we should continue our current practice or course correct the drinking water (Brita, zero water, peak water or osmio zero).


----------



## MWJB

Michael87 said:


> Looking at current options for home delivery from ocado: are either of these suitable?
> 
> M&S Still Scottish Mountain Water (pic 1)
> 
> Ocado Still Water (pic 2)
> 
> View attachment 53299
> 
> 
> View attachment 53300


 Not really, but for brewed only (with a kettle) the first one might not be too bad.

Ocado do Zerowater jugs & filters, then you can cut that with the tap water to get 40-60mg/L KH as CaCO3.

If you want bottled water, then it'll have to come from somewhere else.


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## Rob1

Michael87 said:


> Looking at current options for home delivery from ocado: are either of these suitable?
> 
> M&S Still Scottish Mountain Water (pic 1)
> 
> Ocado Still Water (pic 2)
> 
> View attachment 53299
> 
> 
> View attachment 53300


 No.



Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> We have a whole house water softener (salt blocks) including kitchen. We have been using this for drinking, cooking and also for beverages during the last 6 years. The utility has a hard water tap and is not convenient to draw water every time.
> 
> The tap water hardness is 318, dividing it by 2.175 and adding the existing sodium gets us to ~185.
> 
> The drop test shows the following :
> 
> Kitchen 1 drop GH turns to light green ~ 17.9 and 1 drop of KH turns it to blue ~ 17.9. The attached image is the drop test results of the kitchen tap.
> 
> The utility hard water tap requires 20 drops of GH to green yielding ~ 358, while 1 drop of KH at 17.9. This takes the sodium content past 200!
> 
> The TDS is higher at 331.
> 
> We are no longer sure if we should continue our current practice or course correct the drinking water (Brita, zero water, peak water or osmio zero).
> 
> View attachment 53410


 358 Hardness, 17.9 alkalinity (could be less too), sodium over 200mg/l?


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> 358 Hardness, 17.9 alkalinity (could be less too), sodium over 200mg/l?


 Apologies for not being very clear. This is the Hard water tap reading and not relevant.

Considering both GH and KH turn green and blue as soon as a drop each added to the 5 ml water, as you suggested, they could be a lot less. I should ideally test them on 10 ml or 20 ml and take 0.5 or 0.25. Let me see what I get. thanks


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## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Apologies for not being very clear. This is the Hard water tap reading and not relevant.
> 
> Considering both GH and KH turn green and blue as soon as a drop each added to the 5 ml water, as you suggested, they could be a lot less. I should ideally test them on 10 ml or 20 ml and take 0.5 or 0.25. Let me see what I get. thanks


 Mainly I just can't follow what you're doing. Presumably you're testing separately for sodium? I don't get what the dividing by 2.175 step equates to and "adding existing sodium gets you to ~185"...185 what? Is it mg/l sodium in the water before treatment?


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> I don't get what the dividing by 2.175 step equates to and "adding existing sodium gets you to ~185"


 Sorry, if you find this confusing! 😊

The sodium level in our water supply is ~ 36 mg/l. The CaCo3 is 318 mg/l. To get the sodium exchanged during the softening process, the calcium carbonate hardness level is divided usually by 2.175, which gives 146.21 mg/l of sodium. This will be added to the existing sodium level, which varies between ~ 23 mg/l and ~ 35 mg/l. So, one is left with a total sodium level between 169 mg/l and 181mg/l after treatment. All of these are based on 1.25 years old data.

Hope it clarifies!


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## forsh

Hi

Ive read through a lot of this topic and not entirely understood all of it. My tap water is pretty soft so I think I'm ok to use it in my machine but might need to add BiCarb? If so, how much?

I anyone is willing to read through the attached water quality sheet and let me know their assessment I'd appreciate it.

View attachment United Utilities - Water Quality Search Results.pdf


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## MWJB

forsh said:


> Hi
> 
> Ive read through a lot of this topic and not entirely understood all of it. My tap water is pretty soft so I think I'm ok to use it in my machine but might need to add BiCarb? If so, how much?
> 
> I anyone is willing to read through the attached water quality sheet and let me know their assessment I'd appreciate it.
> 
> View attachment 53489


 Your alkalinity is from 15 to 40mg/L as CaCO3, averaging 23mg/L.

Add 40mg/L of sodium bicarbonate, or 0.20grams to 5L of water. Use 0.01g scales, as accurate as you can find reasonably.


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## forsh

MWJB said:


> Your alkalinity is from 15 to 40mg/L as CaCO3, averaging 23mg/L.
> 
> Add 40mg/L of sodium bicarbonate, or 0.20grams to 5L of water. Use 0.01g scales, as accurate as you can find reasonably.


 Wow thanks for the super fast reply. Now to invest in decent scales 😁


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## Rob1

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Sorry, if you find this confusing! 😊
> 
> The sodium level in our water supply is ~ 36 mg/l. The CaCo3 is 318 mg/l. To get the sodium exchanged during the softening process, the calcium carbonate hardness level is divided usually by 2.175, which gives 146.21 mg/l of sodium. This will be added to the existing sodium level, which varies between ~ 23 mg/l and ~ 35 mg/l. So, one is left with a total sodium level between 169 mg/l and 181mg/l after treatment. All of these are based on 1.25 years old data.
> 
> Hope it clarifies!


 Oh ok, I'm with you. I googled what this 2.175 thing is about and it seems a shortcut for calculating ion exchange. Problem with you don't know how much of the hardness is from calcium and magnesium. The 2.175 figure probably assumes all of the hardness as CaCO3 is from Calcium as that will be the main contributor to hardness. You'll be able to calculate more accurately if you actually know the Calcium and Magnesium content, calculate the moles and then translate the difference after filtration to sodium moles then calculate that as mg/l. Still, it's safe to say your sodium content is not going to be ideal regardless of how precise you try to be. Seems like your only option to avoid such high sodium is some kind of RO or RO/DI system with remineralisation or bypass. Presumably you're getting more chloride in your water from your filter too, not just sodium?

EDIT: There are supposed to be in line filters from BWT for example but I don't know anything about filters really.


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Rob1 said:


> Still, it's safe to say your sodium content is not going to be ideal regardless of how precise you try to be. Seems like your only option to avoid such high sodium is some kind of RO or RO/DI system with remineralisation or bypass. Presumably you're getting more chloride in your water from your filter too, not just sodium?


 We always thought the kitchen had soft water tap, when we moved > 6 years ago. The builder who did some work soon after that, said it's not a soft water 😟. We did a lot of strip tests and Ph test (digital); both the hard and soft taps showed the same 7.4-7.5 readings. We continued drinking it - even now - until I grabbed a drop test kit recently.

I have no idea about the chloride, mate.

Agree, RO is what we are considering. We plan to get in touch with Mark, some time today. The quicker the better! 😊

Thanks!


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Like Medium Strong Coffee said:


> Agree, RO is what we are considering. We plan to get in touch with Mark, some time today. The quicker the better! 😊


 Ordered Zero!


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## Danm

Just reading this thread for the first time. I have always used Ashbeck for my machine but noticed a post where someone was cutting Ashbeck with another water. Are their reasons (other than personal taste preference) for doing this. TIA


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## MWJB

Danm said:


> Just reading this thread for the first time. I have always used Ashbeck for my machine but noticed a post where someone was cutting Ashbeck with another water. Are their reasons (other than personal taste preference) for doing this. TIA


 Personal taste preference isn't the priority, or even something that can be guaranteed with modifying the water for an espresso machine. You might enjoy your espresso with a water that is very likely to scale. or with a water that could be corrosive. You must be using Ashbeck because you like the result & it suits your personal taste.

Ashbeck does not meet any of the existing recommendations for boiler friendly water (Schulman, SCAA, Water for Coffee, SCAE water report), it is too low in alkalinity, hence cutting it with a higher alkalinity water can get you in the ideal zone.


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## Danm

MWJB said:


> Personal taste preference isn't the priority, or even something that can be guaranteed with modifying the water for an espresso machine. You might enjoy your espresso with a water that is very likely to scale. or with a water that could be corrosive. You must be using Ashbeck because you like the result & it suits your personal taste.
> Ashbeck does not meet any of the existing recommendations for boiler friendly water (Schulman, SCAA, Water for Coffee, SCAE water report), it is too low in alkalinity, hence cutting it with a higher alkalinity water can get you in the ideal zone.


Thanks. You are correct in that the original reason I think I went for this was to reduce scale build up.

Googling brought up some older threads/posts with some blending options that I believe you authored.

Am I correct that given option between Waitrose Lockhills vs Ashbeck, the former would have an overall better profile?


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## MWJB

Danm said:


> Am I correct that given option between Waitrose Lockhills vs Ashbeck, the former would have an overall better profile?


 Yes, Lockhills is one of the very few bottles waters that matches the ideal spec for boiler water.

Oddly, Lockhills & Ashbeck both come from very close by each other, but it's not unusual for ground water to have slightly differing characteristics based upon exactly wher it is extracted.


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## LostInSpace

Quick note to say thank you to the OP and other contributors for this thread. Very useful info and pleased to have several options for boiler friendly water. 👏


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## Kez

Hi all,

I just picked up a Sage Dual Boiler and have been reading around trying to figure out what water to use in it. I am in a ridiculously hard water area currently, so tap water is out of the question.

I already have a distiller, and have been using a combo of baking soda and epsom salts to make my own water for my drip machine (the Sage Precision Brewer).

I have been reading that the sulfate in epsom salts may be corrosive and not a good idea to put in espresso machines (is it also a bad idea to put it in my brewer?).

It seems like putting a dash of sodium or potassium bicarbonate into distilled water is a safe option for the espresso machine - is this the case? And is it also likely to taste okay in the precision brewer?

Thanks!


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## MWJB

Kez said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I just picked up a Sage Dual Boiler and have been reading around trying to figure out what water to use in it. I am in a ridiculously hard water area currently, so tap water is out of the question.
> 
> I already have a distiller, and have been using a combo of baking soda and epsom salts to make my own water for my drip machine (the Sage Precision Brewer).
> 
> I have been reading that the sulfate in epsom salts may be corrosive and not a good idea to put in espresso machines (is it also a bad idea to put it in my brewer?).
> 
> It seems like putting a dash of sodium or potassium bicarbonate into distilled water is a safe option for the espresso machine - is this the case? And is it also likely to taste okay in the precision brewer?
> 
> Thanks!


 I don't know about Epsom salts & sulfate.

I mix my tap water with pure water to give ~50mg/L alkalinity (checked with a KH drop kit). This takes about 30s longer than normal, when filling a kettle/water tank & regular kitchen scales suffice.


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## ryand

Apologies in advance for the basic question. I'm confused again, and searching / googling has only made it worse.

My tap water is super hard (19 deg hardness, per my water supplier and also my API fish tank dropper kit).

After my inline filter (bypass set as recommended for 19 deg hardness - it has the scope to go up or down from there), the API dropper kit is giving me 1 deg TH, 8 deg KH. I'm doubling the water volume / drops for accuracy. What does this mean for minerals in my espresso, and scaling potential for my Gaggia Classic?

Thanks in advance for any explanations!


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## MWJB

ryand said:


> Apologies in advance for the basic question. I'm confused again, and searching / googling has only made it worse.
> 
> My tap water is super hard (19 deg hardness, per my water supplier and also my API fish tank dropper kit).
> 
> After my inline filter (bypass set as recommended for 19 deg hardness - it has the scope to go up or down from there), the API dropper kit is giving me 1 deg TH, 8 deg KH. I'm doubling the water volume / drops for accuracy. What does this mean for minerals in my espresso, and scaling potential for my Gaggia Classic?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any explanations!


 8degrees KH doesn't bode well for taste.


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## 1984FXSB

Having just bought the Bianca I'm keen to make sure I'm looking after it so water is obviously a big consideration. Our tap water is brutally hard. I'm not sure of the specifics but given that the reservoir on my Moccamaster may as well be frosted if I leave any residue in there, it's obviously pretty severe.

Unfortunately an Osmio or similar just isn't an option as much as I'd like it to be. Mainly for space saving reasons, we don't have the biggest Kitchen as it is and to have the Bianca and related accessories, Grinder, Moccamaster and Osmio is not going to happen.

So assuming I'll be relying on bottled water and the Bianca's softener cartridges, How's Sainsbury's Chase Spring? Looking at the search results not ideal?


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## MWJB

1984FXSB said:


> So assuming I'll be relying on bottled water and the Bianca's softener cartridges, How's Sainsbury's Chase Spring? Looking at the search results not ideal?


 Without knowing what the Lelit softener actually does, I can't really comment on that.

Regarding bottled water, Chase Spring is typical UK hard water. It may be softer than what you have coming out the tap, but it's definitely not soft, nor boiler friendly. Bottled water options (without mixing) are Volvic & Waitrose Essential Lockhills.


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## 1984FXSB

MWJB said:


> Without knowing what the Lelit softener actually does, I can't really comment on that.
> 
> Regarding bottled water, Chase Spring is typical UK hard water. It may be softer than what you have coming out the tap, but it's definitely not soft, nor boiler friendly. Bottled water options (without mixing) are Volvic & Waitrose Essential Lockhills.


 Thanks, I just bought a few packs of Volvic and will continue to use that until I get the in-line system fitted.


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## Pompei

I just stumbled upon this forum & thread after researching what water I should use in my coffee machine & I've found it very useful.

I was hoping if someone could help me with some questions I have.

I understand I need to have KH or Alkalinity between 40-60mg/L as CaCO3 or 50-75mg/L as Bicarbonate ion. I think if I have understood this thread correctly, this is to protect the machine from corrosion?

With my water quality report from Wessex Water, it doesn't specify KH or Alkalinity. I have sent in an email to them to see if they know it & can tell me. I have also purchased a KH GH test kit from Amazon so that I can try & verify it for myself. I'm just waiting for it to arrive.

What the water report tells me is that my Calcium Carbonate mg/L is 46, which it classifies as soft. If my understanding is correct, this figure is the General Hardness/Total Hardness of my water?

If the above is correct. I would like to know if there's any minimum requirement for GH/TH for protecting the machine from corrosion? Or is having higher GH/TH only relevant to the taste of the water? And plays no role in protecting from corrosion?

Even though my water is already soft, I like to run it through a Brita filter to remove debris & any potential contaminants, but I'm worried if I make my water too soft that it will lead to corrosion.

I have a TDS meter & it measures my tap water as anything from 51 to 59 during different times of the day. Whereas after it's been through the Brita jug it's down to 42, but I think I'm around 1 month into the current filter. I realise this doesn't help with knowing specifically what of each has been reduced, but I think it is useful to know as a reference for when the filter needs replacing.

Hypothetically, if a Brita filter when new, were to reduce my GH/TH to a tiny amount, such as ~20mg/L, are there any negative consequences of this? I have always used Brita filtered water with my kettle for tea as I prefer the taste, regardless of the fact it must be very soft. It normally takes around 1yr for the first signs of scaling to show.

I've also read conflicting articles suggesting that drinking 0 TDS water/distilled water might leach minerals from the body. But I'm not sure if this is just a conspiracy theory or if there's any legitimacy to these claims. One of the contradicting stories to this claim is that the US Navy Submarine crews have been drinking distilled water for many decades & there's been no reported ill health consequences.

I bring this up as I own a ZeroWater jug & was drinking (not using it in my coffee machine or kettle) 0 TDS ZeroWater for a couple weeks with no issues before reading about some of the negative stories about doing so. Since then I've switched to mixing it with tap or Brita filtered water as the negative stories spooked me.

The only water I've put through my coffee machine is Volvic. But if I can get away with just Brita filtered tap water, that would be my preference.


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## MWJB

Pompei said:


> What the water report tells me is that my Calcium Carbonate mg/L is 46, which it classifies as soft. If my understanding is correct, this figure is the General Hardness/Total Hardness of my water?


 Yes, this is your total hardness.

Some suppliers also have an in depth water report, that sometimes includes alkalinity.



Pompei said:


> If the above is correct. I would like to know if there's any minimum requirement for GH/TH for protecting the machine from corrosion? Or is having higher GH/TH only relevant to the taste of the water? And plays no role in protecting from corrosion?


 40-50mg/L is the lower limit according to majority of sources, SCAA is lower at 17mg/L. There are no determinations based on taste.



Pompei said:


> Even though my water is already soft, I like to run it through a Brita filter to remove debris & any potential contaminants, but I'm worried if I make my water too soft that it will lead to corrosion.


 Then stop running it through the Brita until you can confirm what it actually does. Forget TDS, it's not telling you what you need to know.

You're not going to put 0TDS water in your coffee machine. I can't give you health advice.

If you were to use a Zerowater jug, you can mix the Zerowater with tap water to give your desired alkalinity.

Your tap water is softer than Volvic, check the alkalinity and if it is in range and the resulting coffee tastes better with the tap water, use that.


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## Pompei

Thank you for the information.

I downloaded the full water report beforehand & Alkalinity wasn't included.

I originally had thought that my GH/TH of 46mg/L meant the same as KH/Alkalinity, as I had only heard of GH/TH & pH before. But after reading this thread & some other articles, I realised Alkalinity is its own unique measurement & obviously critical too. What confused me is that they can both be measured in CaCO3, whereas as pH has its own 0 to 14 measurement.

I'm hoping Wessex Water will tell me via email my Alkalinity. They did help me before when I enquired about Magnesium in the past, as that wasn't included either. They told me they have no statutory requirement to disclose Magnesium levels, but they were kind enough to tell me anyway. I will also try to verify GH & KH with a test kit too.

My precise Calcium is 15mg/L & Magnesium is 2.4mg/L. & pH is 7.86 for the record.

My main rationale for always wanting to use a filter is as well as removing chlorine, debris, etc. I also want to remove any trace amounts of 'lead' in my water.

In my water report it says the PCV (prescribed concentration or value) for lead is 10µg/L (1 part per billion) & the mean value is my area is <0.3. According to Brita's claims, their filter reduces lead. I'm not sure if I'm over worrying about that though because it's still well within the limits. But I also know the preferred amount of lead is 0 as it has no no positive benefits on the human body.

Once I have my Alkalinity, I will most likely mix Brita filtered water with a cheaper brand of bottled water to reach the minimum figures you stated.

Thanks again.


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