# Costa Coffee-New grading for shops



## flirtylin (Jan 12, 2012)

I've been a Costa fan for ages and must admit to being more than a bit addicted to not only their coffee but also the chicken/choritzo paninnis.

Imagine my horror when I went into my local this morning only to be told that the shops have new grading (bronze, silver & gold) and as my local only falls into bronze, they can no longer order the nice paninnis in, not to mention lots of other lovely stuff including cakes etc.

I hope that they realise that they will lose custom if they don't put this right. Has anyone else had their store downgraded?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

refer to http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?5014-Saving-the-world-from-mediocre-coffee...


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

so the grading has nothing to do with how good they are at making coffee ? cos at first glance that was my thoughts


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

There's nothing on the Costa website as far as I can see. This is an intriguing development. Maybe Gold are the most profitable ones and bronze are the least, so they need to adjust the menu offered to avoid high cost of sales in bronze places. If not enough people are buying the food, and it is unprofitable to offer it, then it would make sense to cut your losses and focus on your star products.

I wonder, are there any other places to buy paninnis and cakes nearby, OP?


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## lucky13 (Dec 30, 2011)

just take a Greggs pasty in with you, job's a good'en


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Call me a massive snob ...probably going to be shot down in flames ...but I feel sorry for people who think Costa is good coffee. In the same way that people that think McDonald's is good food. If people like it then fair enough, but there is sooooo much better out there! To quote Steve 'Life is too short for bad coffee'


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> Call me a massive snob ...probably going to be shot down in flames ...but I feel sorry for people who think Costa is good coffee. In the same way that people that think McDonald's is good food. If people like it then fair enough, but there is sooooo much better out there! To quote Steve 'Life is too short for bad coffee'


I kind of agree with you, Gary. But don't beat yourself up... I don't think snobbery is the sentiment. There's room for all different levels of food and drink in the high street including MacDonalds (although I prefer a Whopper to a Big Mac







), but I would love it if more consumers allowed themselves to see past the marketing e.g. Costa's "saving the world from mediocre coffee", and instead try the independents once in a while.

I think the problem is, consumers perception is that the quality is higher in big chains than it is in small coffeeshops, and to be fair small coffeeshops are often terrible. So as a normal consumer (rather than a coffee afficionado) why would you think an independent would be worth trying? Unless of course the independent shop took pains to make great coffees AND communicate that to consumers effectively... which places like Kaffeine and St. Ali do very well at on both counts. They appeal to everyone, not just to coffeegeeks.

In reality, despite Starbucks, Costa, Nero etc being what we might call sub-standard, they arguably put more effort into their coffee offering than most small cafes do. So the blame has to lie partly with the people who are opening independent cafes and just being half-arsed in their coffee offering, and also in their marketing. They aren't giving consumers a reason to make the switch... and this is why the big chains are still doing ok.


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## lucky13 (Dec 30, 2011)

You forget the human tendancy to dislike change. Thats another reason people like chains.... consistency. People don't have to stand there working out a new menu, they can just reel off their usual combo, in boring bliss...


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

lucky13 said:


> You forget the human tendancy to dislike change. Thats another reason people like chains.... consistency. People don't have to stand there working out a new menu, they can just reel off their usual combo, in boring bliss...


It's a good point, and this is where the point I was making about independents doing a better job with marketing comes in. People can be persuaded to be comfortable with change. There's even a formula for making it more possible.

Rather than sitting back and believing that customers are never going to change, and that all one can do is react to their whims, I think a little more proactive spirit by independent coffeeshops would help turn the tide in favour of those who sell good coffee.

Here's an example... I'm working my bollocks off to get good at making coffee. Will it be enough? No. So what else can I do to pull customers in? For one... I'm entering the UKBC, which will help me improve more, but also provides a fantastic marketing opportunity (posters in the windows etc), and hopefully will encourage customers to change... to visit my place instead of the Neros up the road. Just one thing that would hopefully interest consumers in trying good coffee.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think where independents can always win hands down is making the coffee experience a personal one... arrive a customer leave as a friend so to speak. The best places in Birmingham (6/8 , Brewsmiths, Saint Caffe) are doing well, and able to snatch away non coffee geek customers from the likes of Costa, yes because they create a place which is comfortable, relaxing, superb customer service and the coffee is good BUT also are willing to chat to you (about coffee if you like) ..they make you feel like they are serving YOU & not just another Joe Blogg in a queue of robotic transactions.

Place A - Good solid coffee sure you've had better but excellent customer service , making you feel special..you leave with a smile.

Place B - Amazing coffee, to die for ...however...customer service wasnt the best, you felt rushed

I know where Id go back to.....

If you could combined the best from Place A & B .....well thats what the great Independent have done


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

I'm with Gary - I won't go back to shops that offer a poor experience. The best marketing you get is word of mouth, and a good independent shop, which offers great service in a well considered and maintained environment won't struggle to convert customers (of all types) into enthusiasts who drag all their friends along.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Like many people in this country of my age I was brought up on powdered instant coffee. I never liked the stuff but freezed dried Gold Blend seemed like some sort of breakthrough. Then I started to drink percolated (stewed) ground coffee and I began to acquire a taste for coffee. Then I got accustomed to drinking espresso coffee on the continent, then espresso here as it became more common. Then I started buying beans and grinding them, then fresh beans, then beans from a specialised roaster and began to understand what good espresso could be... Each stage was a revelation. And there's always another one ahead.

So in reply to the previous posts, Costa coffee is a miracle compared to what was around in Britain 30 years ago. By many standards their coffee isn't that great, but we should be thankful that it's there.

I now think there is a danger of the new wave of coffee shops leaping ahead of public taste. Increasingly people are confessing to me (sometimes in whispers) that although they like the environment of the new coffee shop round the corner (and you know the type - La Marzocco, stripped wood tables, minimal design, bare brick or bare metal, one or two nice fresh inventive sandwiches, invariably run by Aussies or Kiwis) and are impressed by the service and the latte art, they actually don't like the coffee that much.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> I think where independents can always win hands down is making the coffee experience a personal one... arrive a customer leave as a friend so to speak. The best places in Birmingham (6/8 , Brewsmiths, Saint Caffe) are doing well, and able to snatch away non coffee geek customers from the likes of Costa, yes because they create a place which is comfortable, relaxing, superb customer service and the coffee is good BUT also are willing to chat to you (about coffee if you like) ..they make you feel like they are serving YOU & not just another Joe Blogg in a queue of robotic transactions.


I completely agree with you there Gary, but you're looking at it from a coffee afficionado's point of view, not from a normal consumer's point of view. You are coffee-educated and therefore you hunt out the good places. Most people are not coffee-educated. They are mis-educated by marketing.

When I mention independent cafes and coffeeshops I think you automatically think of people like Dept of Coffee, Taylor Street Baristas etc... barista-ville. In reality those barista-led places represent a tiny fraction of the total population of independent cafes serving espresso... including greasy spoons. When you put yourself in the shoes of a 'normal' consumer who is not coffee-educated, and is trying to decide where to buy coffee, then all I am saying is that what comes to their mind is not "Should I go to Starbucks, or to a shop owned by a world class competition barista?" It's "Should I go to Starbucks or to Julie's Cafe... or Vinny's Authentic Italian Coffee Bar". They want a place to grab a coffee and maybe a sit down and chat to their friend. They don't want to go on a 'coffee tour'... they would piss themselves laughing at the thought. They don't want to discuss the temperature of the milk with the barista. Not normal people. Women with Sainsbury's bags. They just want their coffee, and to enjoy it. So they think to themselves, as people who are not coffee-educated, "Who is most likely to do good coffee? It's probably not going to be that crappy little place called Vinny's. I'll go to Starbucks. Everyone goes to Starbucks. They must be better than Vinny's. He's just some unknown Italian bloke."

Worst case scenario, a customer get's adventurous one day and goes into Julie's instead of Starbucks. What does she get? Shite coffee, because Julie bought an espresso machine, had 15 mins of training from the engineer when it was installed, and has been whacking out Costco espressos without a tamper for months. Where is the customer going on her next shopping trip? Starbucks.

It is right that this is the case? Not at all. So who should we blame?

The customer? No. They are just trying to buy a coffee and responding to the information provided.

Starbucks? No.

The good barista led places? No?

The crappy independent cafes that make up 80% of the places you can buy coffee as you're out and about? *Absolutely. *

I do feel sorry for people who frequent the chains, because they are missing out. But I don't think it's their fault. The majority of the alternatives are worse. Good coffeeshops are very hard to find unless you know where to look.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Good post. I need to iterate though that the examples I gave (6/8 , Brewsmiths, Saint Caffe) are not barista-ville at all (Dave at Brewsmiths would possibly shudder at the thought) . They are all 'family friendly' approchable venues, in good locations (infact directly opposite big chains in 6/8's case) no coffee tour needed. The majority of customers ''want a place to grab a coffee and maybe a sit down and chat to their friend''...they have the balance absolutely right, sure the odd Geek like myself is seen in there time to time. If a geek walks in they are given geek treatment...if Joe Bloggs walks in they are given friendly service, and, the same quality cup applies in both scenareos.

I think the majority of people who go to the big chains are 1) sheep 2) dont know any better 3) would probably prefer the coffee in my example shops 9 times out of 10. They just need gently educating. Everyone who I have taken to the afore mentioned example shops instantly agreed they had been missing a real cup of coffee until that point.... typical quote = ''wow, I didnt know real coffee tasted like that, yum''. The funny thing is often these good independents are equally priced , if not cheaper than the chains!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Well said. Now if only there were more placed like Brewsmiths.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

I think you have hit the nail on the head. I recently took a colleague to Taylor Street Baristas (the one near Bank) which is often heaving, with a queue practically out the door. The queue tends to move slowly because Taylor Street have a policy of grinding each dose to order.

Standing in the queue I could tell my colleague was getting impatient and could not understand why given the number of staff, the queue was moving so slowly. To pass the time and to keep him happy I tried to explain why we we waiting and point out all the differences to all the coffee shops nearer to our office. Apart from being ever so slightly impressed by the latte art he saw I could tell he was thoroughly unimpressed and could not understand why we did not just go somewhere closer.

That was until we stepped outside and he tasted the coffee. He literally stopped in his tracks and exclaimed: It tastes like christmas pudding!

I think there is a significant marketing hurdle for the independents to overcome and until people understand that not all coffee is created equal this will be challenging.


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

There is another category of people - ones that have tried speciality coffee and would rather drink instant.

Case in point is my girlfriend's mum. She drinks probably 2-3 cups a day of douwe egberts with a drop of milk and 'enjoys' it. When I was getting into good coffee and was staying at the in-laws (to be) I was excited to show her how coffee could taste and I was expecting a revelation! What I got from the cup of finca de licho (prepared in v60) was "ooh that's very strong and bitter". It didn't register on my bitter radar so I don't think it was a brewing error. The interesting thing I've found recently is that when we were in France she really enjoyed a crappy americano from a french service station, exclaiming "now that's good coffee!". I tried it and as you would expect - bitter and burnt.

I understand that everyone's palate is different but this was poles apart! I've actually shamed myself and bought a jar of douwe egberts for next time they stay just for the convenience!

The other issue with people trying speciality coffee when they've only had starbucks or costa before is that it's often a lot stronger than they're used to. Maybe good independents should offer a larger than standard latte to introduce people to the flavours without the strength. At least twice while I've been sat in Notes on St Martin's Lane I've overheard people try the cappuccino and the first thing they say is how it's very strong and to me that comes across as a negative.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Ha! I too have a secret cupboard containing instant coffee. My mother. The lady's not for turning. (She'd be absolutely horrified at me likening her to Thatcher, her personal nemisis!)

And you're right... there have been several times I've had to provide "a little more milk please"


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## mike 100 (Jul 15, 2010)

I know exactly what you mean, when friends of ours who "Love good coffee",( which to them means Costa et al) came to stay I made them large (to me) latte's 1 shot of espresso (Monsooned Malabar) with 8 ounces of milk, too strong they said and then added cold milk!

I think to a lot of people the quality of the coffee is not that important, what they get at the chain coffee shops is coffee thats better than instant, latte's etc that they maybe can't make at home, somewhere nice to sit etc .

I blame "Friends"!!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

But I do still think that *most* people who try good coffee like it a lot and are easily converted, permanently. it's just getting them to give it a fair try that's the challenge.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

What do you guys think people mean when they say 'strong'. Do you think they mean TDS like us?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I think the irrespective of what the flavours are, they are registering them as too intense to enjoy.


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## gazbea (Jul 11, 2011)

I'm just sat in one now with a "doppio" espresso. 4oz I think! Wish I didn't have to be in here but the Mrs needed the toilet!

Finished it 5 mins ago and all I can described the aftertaste as is burnt dark chocolate. That was after adding a chunk of brown sugar to make it drinkable and left for about 5 minutes to cool down.

Group head must definitely be running a little on the hot side!









First time I've been offered a glass of tap water to accompany it though!


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

This is really interesting and is something I have been thinking about a lot recently. I wonder whether the intensity people complain of goes some way to explaining our obsession with cafe lattes in this country - perhaps people want more milk to sweeten and dilute the strong coffee flavour so that it is more palatable to them.

On the other hand, some of my recent experiences introducing friends, family and colleagues to well made, fresh coffee have left me wondering whether the flavour that many people associate with coffee is in fact the burnt/bitter taste that often accompanies poorly brewed coffee. Maybe this is why as a nation we like so much milk in our coffee - to offset and mask the burnt/bitter flavours. I now also wonder whether over time, this burnt/bitter flavour in fact becomes an acquired taste to the extent that people prefer it to well-brewed, fresh coffee.

I am sure everyone here has their own thoughts on this subject and I would love to hear them.


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

I've had a similar experience from how people express bitterness as strength - see the thread Coffee-strength-and-how-it-s-perceived


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## coffeeone (Dec 11, 2011)

I think people just like milk. maybe blame the childhood bottle of milk we used to get?

Anyway, as a novice, here are my thoughts on the chain v independent argument. I would always go to a chain tbh coffee nation coffee from the machine i thought tasted as good though.

Would i visit an independent? not really, how would i know it served good coffee? Sometimes i would go in and get a blob of skin from the milk on top, disgusting. Now i know it was because the milk was too hot.

When i started reading this site. i was in a different locale and there were dozens of independents so thought lets try one. But which one? How do you differentiate? Well i saw one advertising that it roasted its own beans. They had obviously spent alot of money doing the place up and had beans galore in big glass containers. So thought here we go this must be good.

I also wanted to buy some beans for myself and having gleaned a tiny knowledge from this site i thought let me see how fresh these beans are. So i asked the assistant unfortunately her english was only slightly better than my polish. So i have no idea how fresh they were/are. I tried to ask about the different types they offered and she looked at me like i was an idiot so i gave up and of course i bought no beans and my capuccino imo was no better than from a chain except it was served with full fat milk. My fault i know but was it a well made drink? Again it was not very coffee tasting, lol my descriptions are as poor as my palate. But i could not taste great coffee. Would i go back there? No.

The owner may have a great coffee imporium but on my first impression what is the point on doing all that if your staff cannot explain this, you do not advertise it and the coffee tastes no better than from a chain.

My all in one machine makes far superior coffee than i have so far tasted from a shop. Maybe i simply have set it up to my preference but i am certain from reading this forum that coffee should taste far better than my machine can make but how would i know where to go for that to be proven? Is it my responsibility to find out or the folks wanting to take my money to let me know?

I know for me it is both but for the average person not reading these types of forums? Then imo that is down to the independents to inform them.


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

:dummy:Eh? am I missing something?.

Can't quite see the connection - Coffee to Shoes


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Delight extend to you, too.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

painty said:


> Delight extend to you, too.


My delight is short , it extends no further ,if you have excessive delight, please release


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## Jinkster (Sep 7, 2013)

When it comes to Costa Coffee, I really like the Cortado they sell.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk - now Free


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

you must work for Costa or at least getting commission as their coffee is dire


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Milk based drinks can be ok at Costa, its just incredibly hit and miss. Every now and then you will find someone who knows what they are doing and you can have a nice coffee. Don't get me wrong, even with my still fairly amateur skills on my machine I still walk all over their coffee, but its not always so bad. Mind you I never drink espresso from there









Its similar to cocktail making I think, virtually every bar does cocktails, but if you find a bar with a career barman (uncommon in the uk) you will have your eyes opened.

Coffee is one of those tastes that I came around to after drinking incredibly sweet syrup coffees, making places like costa palatable even when the coffee was disgusting. I came around to the taste of coffee after trying and enjoying 'proper' coffee. It always makes me smile when I get a friend around who doesn't like coffee but tries mine and enjoys it, even if they still haven't quite come around to properly. Even had a couple of non-coffee drinkers ask for one the next time they came around


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

my point exactly, we make far better coffee than costa, I have sat back and watched the shots and havent seen and extraction over 20 seconds yet, costa is just awful and things will never change


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The last espresso I had from Costa was pretty faultless. Just because there was nothing wrong with it didn't make it "great", but it was pretty good for a high st espresso. Pot luck, or a good barista that time, I don't know.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

People's experience at Costa seems very variable, whereas Starbucks espresso seems universally bad. Costa retaining semiautos at least leaves the door open to a diligent barista to produce something drinkable, whereas the fully autos are always going to be the about the same.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

then i bow down to the experiences of others


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

If you get the chance to taste the coffee at Head Office you will find that the coffee can be brilliantly prepared and served.

The main issue (in my opinion) is the lack of supervision at a shop level.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

The costa I occasionally go to is ok actually. There isn't really anywhere else I'd go to in Bolton though so they don't exactly have stiff competition. I've only ever been in Starbucks once and I knew that even if the coffee was really good ( which it wasn't) I just wouldn't like a bucket of milk with a shot of espresso in it.I don't know how anybody can enjoy Nero if the one in Bolton is anything to go by.

There's a place in town called Rhode Island that used to have a regional winner of the barista champs working there. I went in and asked for a flat white and they didn't know what it was(it was a few years ago), so I told them and they just said no, we don't do that. What? If you've got a semi auto machine and you're told how to make it, what gives there? The cappa I ended up with was dire as well.

I agree that these places aren't the ones where the dislike should be directed at though. The places that whack out a 10 second gusher without a tamp and expect people to come back for more are putting people off trying independents.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

I had an absolutely lovely flat white at one of their local High Street branches once (the barrista certainly knew what he was doing) and it totally shocked me as the coffee actually had flavour.

On the other hand, the stuff they serve at my gym is just shocking beyond belief and is totally under extracted (luckily I had a voucher for a free coffee there). I think the problem is that they basically have no handle on the quality control at a local level (especially for franchises)....or just don't care as it doesn't hurt their profits.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

Hi Geordie Boy. Which gym do you go to?


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

Excuse me if I don't answer that as I'm not a one for giving details that will identify individual establishments that I have negative experiences with (especially as my opinion will be based on limited purchases). By contrast I much prefer to identify individual establishments that I have positive experiences with


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## spune (Oct 3, 2011)

Glenn said:


> The main issue (in my opinion) is the lack of supervision at a shop level.


This is a massive factor.

Isn't it strange how chains should really offer that consistency across the board, yet this really doesn't seem to be how it actually works based on a lot of comments above. I'd completely echo them too. I don't mind a well prepared Costa but agree with D_Evans in that my home prepared coffee walks all over what I've ever experienced in one of their stores.

I treat Costa just like any fast food outlet nowadays; best avoided in favour of any other independent alternative. The way I see it is that I would rather be disappointed with my coffee in a 'new' way rather than continually give Costa the benefit of the doubt and think "hey, that coffee tasted just as bad as the last one I had".


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

No matter how enthusiastic and well trained the barista, the key factor is always the quality and freshness of beans used. More consistent staff training would help but the quantum leap would be for the big chains to start using fresh roasted beans as opposed to long dated over roasted ones. Of course, this would create logistical problems and more importantly, cost implications. And, when it comes down to it, big outfits are run by suits and accountants with an eye on the bottom line. It's only when indies start seriously eating into the big outfits market share will the latter up their game. It's cynical, but they will always put profit ahead of quality which is the essential difference between an indie and a chain outlet.


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