# Liquorice = over extraction?



## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

Standard stuff: Gaggia Classic with adjusted OPV, Iberital MC2. I always pull a double shot using a large non pressurised basket for a white americano. I have been through the dose weighing and extraction timing process to check grind and everything seems to fit with conventional wisdom. However not matter what bean I try (I'm currenty on Raves single origin Colombian Suarez) I get the overwhelming taste of liquorice, what I would ideally like is a nutty flavour. Extraction starts with a few drips that quickly turn into a pour about the size of a mouses tail. Could the liquorice tones imply over extraction? My crema is a golden colour nothing like the dark brown on this link https://www.quora.com/Why-does-espresso-taste-sour-sometimes should I try a coarser grind?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

It doesn't mention nuts on Rave's site for this coffee, so maybe adjust your expectation in line with the notes provided?

For me, liquorice type flavours in espresso tend to be more related to under-extraction, than over.

Try grinding finer and or pulling to a longer brew ratio (you don't mention your current ratio?).

Don't read too much into crema.


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

I'll try the finer grind. Although the Suarez doesn't mention nuts in the notes what I find strange is that all of the beans I have tried to date all have the same overwhelming liquorice flavour that really stays in your mouth and is not nice. I'm not getting any of the promised caramel toffee flavours from the Suarez and I can't detect any sweetness in the aftertaste at all.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

The fact that all beans you have tried have this same artefact, unfortunately suggests that it is not the beans, but the fact that you are not grinding fine enough/putting enough water through the puck. Sorry, don't mean to sound harsh, but certain problems like under-extraction, have a generic flavour that masks the distinctive flavour of the bean itself.

If you tell us the weight of the ground coffee in the PF (to 0.1g), the weight of the finished coffee at the time the shot ends (scales under the cup, on drip tray) & time taken for the shot, we can perhaps help steer you to a sweeter cup?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Is liquorice a usual "extraction issue" taste?

If not.

Was the grinder new? Someone could have used it for grinding something off piste (spices etc) then moved it on when the taste stuck.

Similarly are you cleaning well and regularly? Off tastes can come from grot lurking around the dispersion plate in a gaggia. It needs to come off monthly as a bare minimum (weekly ideally) and cleaning it and behind it.


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

Missy said:


> Is liquorice a usual "extraction issue" taste?
> 
> If not.
> 
> ...


Good point here ^^

I made the mistake of using the Hausgrind on some cumin seeds (it didnt even work very well) and the aroma clung for many grams of rice, old coffee in attempts to clear it. From memory, fennel seeds are very much like liquorice?

lesson learned!


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

The grinder has never been used for anything other than coffee, I've had it from new. I do keep the equipment clean, I back flush with caviza every few weeks and clean out the grinder after every kg of beans. I'll go through the weighing in and out and timing process over the weekend and post the results.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Have you removed the shower screen and dispersion plate- or just backflushed? You really need to do both.


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

OK, just ran a quick test. exactly 14grams of ground coffee, extraction (from when the pour started not when the button was pushed) 22 seconds (25 seconds total) gives me exactly 2 fluid oz of espresso.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Weigh the output too rather than measuring volume.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

As Missy said, stick to grams , you are comparing weight with volume. The density of the liquid can vary and with crema on top you cannot be precise.

Weigh in gms = Weigh out gms.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RS Designer said:


> OK, just ran a quick test. exactly 14grams of ground coffee, extraction (from when the pour started not when the button was pushed) 22 seconds (25 seconds total) gives me exactly 2 fluid oz of espresso.


Weigh in and out .

How did the shot taste ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

RS Designer said:


> OK, just ran a quick test. exactly 14grams of ground coffee, extraction (from when the pour started not when the button was pushed) 22 seconds (25 seconds total) gives me exactly 2 fluid oz of espresso.


Count from push of button.


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

Re-tested: 14grams in, 61 grams (2 fluid oz) out, 25 second pour.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Still liquorice?


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Grind much finer. Aim for 28g out from a 14g dose as a starting point, hitting 25-30secs. You are some way off this at the moment so tighten that grind dude.


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

Ideal, thanks, I'll aim for 28 and report back when I get close.


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

First attempt with a finer grind has given me around 35g out. It takes about 10 seconds for the shot to start to pour after pressing the button, I thought the machine was going to choke completely, it freaks me out a bit, am I risking overloading my machine? The shot's tasting better!


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

What was the weight in ? What was the total shot time ?

Sounds like you are getting closer to a good starting point


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

Weight in 14g, shot time 25 seconds (35 seconds from button press). Starting point!! if I get to 28g out over 25-30 seconds is there still room for improvement?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why do you want to reduce shot time if things are getting better at 35sec?


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

I'm not trying to reduce shot time, just trying to get closer to where I need to be. Working dogs comment 'Sounds like you are getting closer to a good starting point' implies 28g over 25-30 seconds is just the beginning.

With the Gaggia classic, Is a 10 second pause after button press before the pour starts normal?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Totally normal yes. Anything less and I'd be more concerned!


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)




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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

Thanks all. I've learnt more here in 2 days than I have over the last 2 years and definitely feel like I'm a lot closer to getting the most from my equipment and a much better shot.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

RS Designer said:


> I'm not trying to reduce shot time, just trying to get closer to where I need to be. Working dogs comment 'Sounds like you are getting closer to a good starting point' implies 28g over 25-30 seconds is just the beginning.
> 
> With the Gaggia classic, Is a 10 second pause after button press before the pour starts normal?


Where you need to be is enjoying the drinks you make . Taste is subjective so only you can really appraise that. .

All the numbers and measures are there to help you repeat it after you have reached tasty .... there is no " norm " just what you enjoy .


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Where you need to be is enjoying the drinks you make . Taste is subjective so only you can really appraise that. .
> 
> All the numbers and measures are there to help you repeat it after you have reached tasty .... there is no " norm " just what you enjoy .


That was pretty much what I was saying (I think). Ratios and timings are a guide. I got sloppy with my method (was weighing output but not input). Whilst I wasn't a million miles out, my results were variable. Smartened up my method and the consistency returned and I could make small adjustments to ratios / timing, knowing what I was varying. 1:2 ratio and 30 seconds generally works for me but I will change this if I'm not enjoying a bean.

The big question is has the liquorice gone ?


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## RS Designer (Dec 7, 2015)

With regard to 'has the liquorice gone' I've only my last cup to go by, a flat white. It seemed much better but I find milk based drinks masks some of the flavour, I'll go back to an americano and keep measuring, weighing, tweaking over the week. By the end of the week I'll know if I've rid myself of the liquorice.


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