# The real taste of espresso, what is it exactly??



## Iwwstriker

Hi guys,

Hope I have your attention. I just got the signature blend from Rave coffee this morning. It was roasted on 13th January 2014, which was two day ago. I was dialing the grinder to its perfect shot of everything. I have the Gaggia Classic, pre-warmed. The Iberital MC5 grinder from one of the forum members. I used 16grams of coffee, extracting at a stable temperature. Gaggia Classic was not modified. I tamped with 30lbs of pressure, making sure it's straight and flat. I am using a Motta flat 58mm tamper. I got 24grams of espresso at a time of 25secs. I pre-infused the coffee ground, by just simply turning on the brew switch and switching it off after 2secs. I waited for another 5 secs before turning on the brew switch for an espresso extraction. I obtain a "mousetail"-like stream flow after 4 secs.

Now I thought this should be okay. However, here is where the problem starts. I tasted the espresso. In the beginning, it was no bitterness, no sourness at all. It is very smooth. But the aftermath, it creates a slight sour taste in the tongue, which I don't understand why. Can anyone help me out to troubleshoot this problem? I just wasted a lot of coffee grounds too trying to get it right.

=(


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## jeebsy

Sour means under extracted so maybe try tightening up the grind a bit.

Rave beans are best after 7-10 days normally (although I usually don't wait that long)


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## Eyedee

Rave do not get to optimum taste until after 10 days IMHO.

Ian


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## The Systemic Kid

Iwwstriker said:


> I just got the signature blend from Rave coffee this morning. It was roasted on 13th January 2014, which was two day ago. (


Leave the beans to degas for at least a weak. The taste you describe is probably due to the presence of too much C02 in the grinds which will also impact on the process of water being able to extract from them.


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## urbanbumpkin

Tricky to describe. Just a thought, where abouts in the country are you? Let us know and maybe one of the forum members can recommend a good place to try an espresso locally.


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## coffeechap

Here is the thing with signature......

Rob developed that blend specifically to cut through milk, it helps if you email the roasters to get some recommendations, it really is not roasted for espresso,(its raves cafe blend) although some like it as such, but it is excellent through milk. I am a purist and firmly believe that if you really want to get a knockout espresso, stick to single origin as it is difficult to get the best out of all the beans in a blend and invariably you end up compromising.


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## Iwwstriker

Oooo, that would explain everything. I live in Nottingham. Sorry for not opening up a thread in "New Members" to officially introduce myself. Hahaha. It must have not been de-gassed. So right now, I should just leave the coffee beans in the hooper and wait for another week before using them? I am just wondering since Rave coffee beans come in vacuumed tight packages with one way valve, if I don't open them, I can let them stay in the dark cabinet until I wanna use them, right? Unless I have opened it, and maybe it would be a good idea to leave them in the freezer?

They do taste great with milk, in cappuccino and latte. No sourness after that, all smooth to the throat. Maybe I should try my Italian Job coffee beans first. The tasting noted on the Signature Blend is caramel, roasted hazelnuts and a touch of lemon zest on the finish. This was not noted on the website itself. So I should be presuming that it is different with different batch of the same coffee blend, right?

And I have just checked my opened pack of signature blend beans, which I sealed them up in a big sandwich plastic bag and vacuumed it tight. I just found that it became bulgy. It must be the C02 then? So does that mean to say I can't use my coffee beans at the moment?


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## garydyke1

Maybe some filter/brewed coffee for a few days


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## kikapu

Iwwstriker said:


> Oooo, that would explain everything. I live in Nottingham. Sorry for not opening up a thread in "New Members" to officially introduce myself. Hahaha. It must have not been de-gassed. So right now, I should just leave the coffee beans in the hooper and wait for another week before using them? I am just wondering since Rave coffee beans come in vacuumed tight packages with one way valve, if I don't open them, I can let them stay in the dark cabinet until I wanna use them, right? Unless I have opened it, and maybe it would be a good idea to leave them in the freezer?


I don't think I would leave them in the hopper better off putting back in the bag with two way valves and waiting.

I would only put them in the freezer if I wasnt going to use them within about a month of roasting. Then would wait ten days past roast then freeze.

Of course you can use them but will be better if you can leave them for the 7-10days


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## Iwwstriker

garydyke1 said:


> Maybe some filter/brewed coffee for a few days


Nah, it's gonna be a pain in the ass to dial from espresso to french press (since I own one). The Iberital MC5 comes with a worm drive.


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## Iwwstriker

kikapu said:


> I don't think I would leave them in the hopper better off putting back in the bag with two way valves and waiting.
> 
> I would only put them in the freezer if I wasnt going to use them within about a month of roasting. Then would wait ten days past roast then freeze.
> 
> Of course you can use them but will be better if you can leave them for the 7-10days


Hahaha. I am so lazy to scope the whole hopper of beans back into its bag. Maybe they are just gonna release the gas faster. I just modified my hooper lid to be rubber-sealed. And the slider to be non-gapped as well that allows me to remove the whole hooper of beans with just a lock at the bottom of the hooper.

Alright then, I am just gonna sit tight and wait. Will be reporting in soon for the improved taste. Do keep the comments coming, will be reading every single one of them. Cheers =D


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## jeebsy

A few posts recently indicated a few days in the hopper shouldn't have any real adverse impact on the beans.


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## Daren

Striker - I'll explain what I do In simple terms as it might help. (I hope it doesn't come across as patronising) What I do is order my beans (say from Rave). Once they arrive I leave them in the bag unopened in a cool dark cupboard for 10 days past the roast date (the optimum rest period varies by roaster). You will notice the bag expanding as the days go on. I squeeze the air from the bag periodically through out the 10 days. Once the 10 days is up you are good to go. I single dose (which means I only put the amount of beans for 1 drink in the hopper at a time) and then reseal the bag of beans. Doing this ensures the beans remain at their freshest.

If you leave your beans in the hopper they will loose their freshness quickly (Unless you drink a lot of coffee - by that I mean 250g in less than a week).

If I were you I'd remove the beans from the hopper and reseal them in their bag and give it another week before using them. The DSOL beans I sent you should be with you by now - they are well rested and ready to use. Enjoy them.


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## jeebsy

I order beans in the hope of giving them a rest period. Inevitably run out of other beans far quicker than anticipated and end up having to use the beans that were supposed to be resting. Repeat cycle.


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## Mrboots2u

urbanbumpkin said:


> Tricky to describe. Just a thought, where abouts in the country are you? Let us know and maybe one of the forum members can recommend a good place to try an espresso locally.


He s in nottigham, wired cafe Pelham street . Only place for good espresso there .


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## Iwwstriker

I felt like I should maybe get a smaller hooper, or modify one myself. Since it's graded for commercial, the Iberital MC5, it has a capacity of 1kg. Felt like it's always empty. Not always a good look in the kitchen xD. I have de-gas it for a while, although it's only three days away. I noticed a slightly difference in the taste already. It doesn't have that aftermath sourness slightly. Gonna be using Daren's coffee beans later or maybe tomorrow, I think I should dial in a bit finer, right? Since it has been rested for a while, and it doesn't feel as oily as the freshly roasted ones from Rave. I wouldn't want to waste a bag of generosity from Daren xD hahaha....so to speak. Maybe I should just tamp lighter and grind finer. Balance balance....

Actually I didn't expect Rave to be so fast in its service. It was roasted on 13th January, and it reached me by 12 noon the next day. Yup. @Mrboots2u, Wired cafe, gonna get beans from them as well. At least for one thing, I can definitely smell the difference between the beans from Rave and the beans from Daren (James Gourmet).


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## Pompeyexile

I'm yet to order my first batch of coffee from Rave and have found this thread really useful. One question though; I have a vacuum sealing machine that also came with an attachment hose and a round container and lid that allows the air to be completely sucked out of the container. I assume that would be the best place to put the coffee beans in order to keep them fresh. However, I can see how important it is to let the CO2 out which is what the bags with the valve allow but of course if I vacuum seal them it won't. I am using it to keep my Cafetier coffee in at the moment but is that wrong?


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## tcr4x4

Just leave the beans in the RAVE bag. Unless you buy a 1kg bag, the 250g bags are zip locked, so open them after a week/10 days and then just use what you need and reseal the bag.

I currently have a 250g bag of signature and a 250g bag of Yirgcheffe G1 natural Adado I bought in the shop on Tuesday straight out of the roaster waiting for their week and Im currently on a bag of Italian Job I bought on day of roast on the 14th December. They are getting better and better each day on.


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## Iwwstriker

Yup, I ordered the 1kg beans, who knows it doesn't come with a zip lock. So I have to get a plastic zip lock and put the half remaining 1kg bag of beans into it. And this is hilarious, I actually use a real house vacuum to seal up the bag until it's tight. I did the same to the ones that has not been opened yet. I pumped the C02 from the one way valve so as to remove the C02 before it overloads...=D


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## Iwwstriker

I have recently found this general taste of espresso on home-barista.com

I know it might not be accurate, but at least it's a mini guide. =D

"If your espresso is tasting bright, cutting, grassy, woody, lemon peels etc, and you'd prefer caramel and chocolate, try grinding finer, using less coffee per shot, and slowing down the flow. If you are getting ashy, dull, smoky, tarry, etc, try grinding coarser, using more coffee, and speeding up the flow.

Even more than this tweak, if the first is the case, get a darker roasted coffee the next time, if the second is the case, get a lighter roasted one."


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## Mrboots2u

that's at good basic model for adjustments . Consider though

a bean still needs a rest period for espresso .

a bean might be bright in taste profile ( check tasting notes and cup it also )

with a machine like a classic the the extraction temperature can be a factor in the bitterness , sourness.

if your distribution sucks , then sort this out , otherwise You will be chasing grind adjustments round the machine .


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## Iwwstriker

Haha. Thanks for the advice, @Mrboots2u. I am trying to make up my mind about whether to have my portafilter cut into a naked, or just buy a new naked....

Here's to everyone else who still needs a general guidance. Correct me if this is the wrong direction to go ahead with. Got this from some sources across the internet. Comments are most welcome =D

Here are some characteristics of a quality double shot:


Temperature:
The espresso should be quite hot when served. If it is only lukewarm or warm right after it is made, then the barista did not heat the cup that it was served in.

It should be to the temperature where it is too hot to drink (for most people). It should only take a minute or so to cool off. Perhaps two minutes.


Crema:

There should be a nice layer of crema on top of the espresso (a few millimeters thick, completely covering the espresso). This comes from the release of carbon dioxide when the espresso is extracted under pressure.

The color should be golden-brown to dark brown for a double shot.

The color will not always be uniform, it will sometimes be slightly lighter where the shot actually poured in the spot on the crema.

The crema should remain for at least three - five minutes if not longer.


Taste:

The espresso should be bitter, but not too bitter (high levels of bitterness are more characteristic of espresso long shots).

It should be rich, but not too rich (again, high levels of richness are more characteristic of espresso ristretto shots).

It should NOT be sour. If it is sour, it has been sitting for too long before being served or was over-extracted.

It should not taste watery, this is usually a characteristic of under-extraction.


Smell:

Hard to describe for espresso and the aroma will vary a lot. One thing to avoid is a 'sour' smell, which usually indicates a sour taste, as described above, or that the coffee being used is inherently too acidic.

Consistency:

Espresso is goaing to be thicker and more viscous than regular drip coffee, but it won't be syrupy. When you are done your espresso, the drop or two that remain at the bottom of the cup, when dried should leave a distinct brown residue on the bottom of the cup.


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## Mrboots2u

All the research in the world won't be the same as going and tasting yourself some great espresso from someone or somewhere . Go to the cafe I recommended, try some , talk to them ( they are knowledgable and friendly ) . Less time on google, more time tasting coffee


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## CFo

Mrboots2u said:


> All the research in the world won't be the same as going and tasting yourself some great espresso from someone or somewhere . Go to the cafe I recommended, try some , talk to them ( they are knowledgable and friendly ) . Less time on google, more time tasting coffee


Sounds like very good advice...


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## Charliej

Ivan just buy a naked portafilter it's not a lot of money and they are always finished to a much higher quality than having your own cut. Also, having 2 portafilters , especially with identical baskets can be helpful when you have a few coffees to make as you can be filling one while a shot is pouring etc.

Don't get too lost in the technicalities, particularly from Home Barista, as there are many people on that site who seem far more interested in the theory of espresso and the "numbers" that go into it than simply drinking and enjoying the coffee they produce. Find yourself a routine that works for you and a staple "go to" bean or blend and work with that for a while and treat yourself to something you like the sound of every once in a while.


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## Daren

You can read all the internet articles in the world, what really matters is how it tastes to you and do you like what your tasting. Go with the suggestion made by Boots to give you something to aim for at home - a benchmark (that's if you like what they serve) and then experiment with all the variables to find your favourite taste. The fun is to be had with the experimenting.


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## urbanbumpkin

I agree with Charlie, naked PFs don't cost that much compared to a cut down and it means you'll not have one for at least a week or too. Naked PF is also great for exposing a multitude of sins. It improved my technique massively (after spraying jets of coffee all over the place for the first few times)









Regarding the espresso, I'd also recommend going to place that Boots was on about.A well pulled espresso is so phenomenally better than anything you get at the high street chains. It took me a while to get it correct and I think it would have been easier if I'd known what I was aiming for. Hope this helps. Keep us posted how you get on.


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## Iwwstriker

Very good advises, guys. Alright then, off with the technical stuffs. Gonna get my ass to Wired Cafe very soon and no one's gonna stop me. Hahaha. I am just wondering which company should I get the naked PF from. And I hesitated to cut my current portafilter as I was thinking about maybe in the future I can have different types of spouts fitted to the original portafilter. Two portafilters would certainly be a good idea. Thanks very much, guys. I have been inviting friends over to my house just to try on my extraction of espresso and see how everyone responds to it.

@Daren, I had your coffee dialed in. I tried it with exact yield weight ratio and in 25 sec plus pre-infusion. I am tasting my espresso to be nutty and grassy somehow. A little bit of acid feel and a little bit of bitterness. Am I describing it right? Or did I do something wrong with my extraction?


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## Daren

There is a massive thread on the James Gourmet DSOL with everyones tasting notes. Have a nose - it will keep you amused for a while









http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?13236-DSOL-James-gourmet-coffee&highlight=dsol


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## CFo

Iwwstriker said:


> Very good advises, guys. Alright then, off with the technical stuffs. Gonna get my ass to Wired Cafe very soon and no one's gonna stop me. Hahaha. I am just wondering which company should I get the naked PF from.


Got mine from Happy Donkey - about £25 from memory


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## urbanbumpkin

Iwwstriker said:


> @Daren, I had your coffee dialed in. I tried it with exact yield weight ratio and in 25 sec plus pre-infusion. I am tasting my espresso to be nutty and grassy somehow. A little bit of acid feel and a little bit of bitterness. Am I describing it right? Or did I do something wrong with my extraction?


To check out the extraction / distribution / technique why don't you video one of your shots including the prep and see if any members can give help.


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## Pompeyexile

Just received my first batch of beams from Rave their signature and the Columbian Suarez. The Suarez has a roasting date on it on a label underneath but the signature doesn't. I know someone has said I should leave it at least 7 days from the roasting date before starting to use them and Rave themselves say on the packet best within 1 month of roasting date but without a roasting date how do I know when that is? The roasting date for the Columbian is 20th Jan is it a case of not being able to give a roasting date for the signature because it is made up of different beans?


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## GS11

Pompeyexile said:


> Just received my first batch of beams from Rave their signature and the Columbian Suarez. The Suarez has a roasting date on it on a label underneath but the signature doesn't. I know someone has said I should leave it at least 7 days from the roasting date before starting to use them and Rave themselves say on the packet best within 1 month of roasting date but without a roasting date how do I know when that is? The roasting date for the Columbian is 20th Jan *is it a case of not being able to give a roasting date for the signature because it is made up of different beans*?


No. Label is probably missing. Drop them a message and they should be able to give you a roast date.

Expect it won't be too far from the roast date of your Columbian.


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## El carajillo

I am on the SUAREZ at the moment and it is absolutely superb, I also like the Signature but I think the Suarez has the edge. Enjoy them both and then try other RAVE beans,you will not be disappointed.


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## Iwwstriker

Italian Job from Rave is great =D I guess I got lucky with the coarseness of the grind. Anyone checked out my extraction of shot video? I think I should do the whole thing from the very beginning. Gonna be planning that soon after. I am getting frustrated with pouring milk into espresso. I just can't get the white stuff on the top of the espresso. It always end up with a bit of white strips. So upset. But the espresso is good. I cannot believe starbucks and caffenero have such awful espresso. It was so much bitter compared to a bitter gourd....


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