# OMG shes a spurter



## igm45

So,

As you may or may not know I recently bit the bullet and purchased my first 'proper' coffee machine (and grinder). My shots have been relatively inconsistent, I have done much research and tried many techniques.

Today was my first attempt at a naked portafilter.

Thought process was something like this:

"Look at those cute little spurts, maybe I'm getting a couple of those, lets give it a go".

"OK, so I tamp like that, pop it in there, pull the lever...

Aaah, who knew fluid could even travel that far?? And in that direction??

I'll have a quick sip of what little fluid made it into the cup.... No, just, no."

I'm left with a coffee machine that is cleaned and cared for religously now looking like a dirt track.

So, rather long way of asking this I realise, however, should I?

1) Perservere with the mid fest, after all no pain no gain.

2) Revert to traditional spout until I obtain consistent results.

Spending yet more money is really not an option right now.

On a side note when performing a cooling flush I'm not getting the center pooling, is this normal?

Thanks as usual

10mm


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## Mrboots2u

Persevere, what you are seeing is happening and effecting the coffee , using the naked or spouted portafilter ....


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## igm45

Thanks Mr Boots, I'm aware of that and frankly I would say borderline but its far worse than that im obsessively trying to improve.

Its just massively messy, on the other hand I don't want to get into bad habits by not using one.


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## Mrboots2u

igm45 said:


> Thanks Mr Boots, I'm aware of that and frankly I would say borderline but its far worse than that im obsessively trying to improve.
> 
> Its just massively messy, on the other hand I don't want to get into bad habits by not using one.


If you want to solve the inconsistency in your shots then improving on the distribution and spurters is key to that . You dont need to get espresso porn every time but you shouldn't be having coffee going off a in all directions ,

Put up a clip of your prep , what tamper are you using , what coffee and what grinder.

You can stop using the naked , but your shots will never get more consistent until you improve the extraction .


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## igm45

I will post a video tomorrow, until then my workflow is:

Weigh 14.5 grams beans.

Grind beans.

Cool flush machine.

Remove portafilter, remove basket.

Weigh 14 grams in basket, using spoon to put grinds in.

Insert basket back into portafilter, tamp (using Lelit supplied 58mm tamper). Tamp until firm pressure felt.

Remove tamper, insert portafilter into machine.

Start timer, aim for 28g in 25-35 seconds.

Hope for anything less than a massacre.


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## Mrboots2u

What are the beans ? How fresh


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## igm45

Django, Columbian Acevedo, roasted 8 days ago now


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## Deansie26

Best thread title I've seen! ayyyyy!


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## RDC8

Hi there.

It might help if we knew what machine and grinder you are using.

Has your basket been cleaned recently? Perhaps some of the holes are blocked which could be causing the coffee to spray out in weird angles. Happened to me a while back and a quick soak in pulycaff fixed the problem.

If this is your first attempt at a naked portafilter, what are your shots like when using a spouted one? Sounds like you have two issues here - one is the spurting/spraying and the other is the taste. Maybe try for more coffee in the basket. A lot of people here seem to dose at 16-18gm - but still aim for the 1:2 ratio.

Finally, dont worry too much about the pressure used in the tamp. Remember, the pump is delivering 9 bar of water pressure, this is sufficient to compact the bed. It is more important when tamping to get the bed level and smooth.

Good luck with the experimenting - it takes a lot of practise to get espresso extraction "right"


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## igm45

Thanks for the advice @RDC8. The taste was ok with the spout. Dialling in the beans so a little underextracted.


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## igm45

As promised here are the videos..https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/591566d70ebf8/videocompress-023-20170512_081811_001_002.mp4

https://cloud.tapatalk.com/s/59156711c423d/rotated-001-videocompress-016-20170512_081811_001_001.mp4


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## igm45

The machine is a Lelit Mara (e61). The grinder is a Compak K6 whilst it has a hopper I religiously weigh, grind, clear the chute etc.


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## Deansie26

Would rather not download anything, YouTube?


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## igm45

I've never uploaded to youtube so why not... Give me a minute


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## igm45

Replaced with HQ video


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## igm45




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## El carajillo

Your level adjustments with the spoon is probably causing small slightly compacted areas, try emptying your coffee into the basket then gently wind with a cocktail stick / large needle thin skewer or similar, a gentle tap to settle the grounds then tamp.


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## igm45

El carajillo said:


> Your level adjustments with the spoon is probably causing small slightly compacted areas, try emptying your coffee into the basket then gently wind with a cocktail stick / large needle thin skewer or similar, a gentle tap to settle the grounds then tamp.


Thanks,

Will give it a go. The posted video was better than last nights but still spurted.


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## Wes78

Deansie26 said:


> Best thread title I've seen! ayyyyy!


Agreed, I'd clicked on it before I even saw it


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## Nod

Hi agree with el carajillo this is not an effective way to be setting up distribution. I have realised in the last year that distribution of coffee in the portafilter is completely critical. I wouldngrind into another bowl and find a way to pour in the coffee... use aeroporess funnel or a yogurt container or anything really. The give the grinds a v v good stir all around - imagine u want the coffee completely evenly distributed in the basket - the water then goes through the coffee evenly. Then groom the top somthat it is completely flat and then tamp... flat... u will notice v quickly better results.if u go back to the spout portafilter u will be drinking crapper coffee just not aware of it... keep persevering....


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## Nod

I also recommend the tooth pick or bbq skewer for stirring...


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## igm45

Thanks nod, appreciate the help all. I didn't really get close to dialling in my latest 250g bag of beans due to inconsistency in the basket.

It can be sooo frustrating.

My next bag is 1kg from Rave so have a bit more freedom to experiment (maybe increase dose?)


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## Nod

Don't give up... the truth is it is hard... u don't make great espresso by accident... small differences in technique make a massive difference in the cup... I have learnt this lesson the hard way when I upgraded to higher end gear... much more potential but also much more prone to barista error....


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## Nod

http://grindscience.com/2016/03/improving-espresso-distribution-using-a-mini-flour-sifter/


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## Nod

Read this.... although it is written for the tricky EK43 I think the general principles are v sound... I think of espresso like water going through a soil bed... even if the soil is the same size if there were any errors in the preparation you will get channeling and insonstent passage of the water through the soil.... exactly the same with coffee.... for the sake of faff and a few quid replicate the method in the article and you will be making the best espresso in your town!


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## igm45

Thanks again, I must admit it is a steeper learning curve than I thought it would be.

The result in the cup is worth it when it all goes right.

I'm yet to produce an undrinkable cup, I just don't enjoy them as much as those handful of 'just right' that I'm forever trying to replicate.

Don't get me wrong I am a massive geek so I do enjoy the process, I would just like to be better at it ?


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## Stanic

You will get there, being a geek helps a lot


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## igm45

Nod said:


> http://grindscience.com/2016/03/improving-espresso-distribution-using-a-mini-flour-sifter/


Do you use this technique? Found the sieve on amazon, who on here makes the plastic funnel? And at what cost?


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## nightslayer

Been there done that - distribution is important indeed! I've 3d printed a distributor which solves any issues with consistency after a couple of taps to get a rough leveled distribution and now have no issues (save for the occasional spritz..). But yes, compacting the grounds with a spoon before emptying into the basket would not be ideal, and wdt, though fussy, should theoretically help.


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## igm45

nightslayer said:


> Been there done that - distribution is important indeed! I've 3d printed a distributor which solves any issues with consistency after a couple of taps to get a rough leveled distributions, so yes compacting the grounds with a spoon before emptying into the basket would not be ideal.


 @nightslayer do you have a photograph of your distributor?


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## pedg

@igm45 where are you based?


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## igm45

pedg said:


> @igm45 where are you based?


St. Ives Cambridgeshire


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## pedg

Why can't you grind straight into the portafilter?

I find grinding straight in, tap each side gently to level it, then tamp as per Chris Bacas' method works for me. Tamp gently as well.






Be careful with how you treat the PF post tamp as well. Don't ram it into the machine or knock it, as you will break the puck, causing channeling.

I find a finer grind and a gently gently tamp works for me.


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## igm45

@pedg As I'm so new to this I'm trying to find what works. The weigh in and weigh out appeals as it is both precise and has easily changed variables.

In terms of tamping I am pressing until I feel resistance pushing back. I think distribution is my problem.


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## pedg

Weigh the PF. Grind in, then put the PF+ground coffee on the scales until it reads your desired value.


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## igm45

Thanks for the suggestion I will give it a go. Hadn't done it so far because:

I was using a single spout pf that didn't balance on the scales.

Hopper on the grinder

So should I still stir with the cocktail stick or not?


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## pedg

Like boots said, use the Naked until it works... You'll have better coffee.

I've never bothered with a tooth pick. You can try but its not something I do.


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## igm45

I will be, as I mentioned in another post I work shifts. My darling wife does not.

She is not a coffee drinker and as such does not fully understand my desire for 'coffee enlightenment'.

Therefore to avoid ahem 'coffee conflict' I have used the single spout over the weekend. She is working tomorrow, I am not.

Bring it on my spurting friend...


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## MildredM

igm45 said:


> I will be, as I mentioned in another post I work shifts. My darling wife does not.
> 
> She is not a coffee drinker and as such does not fully understand my desire for 'coffee enlightenment'.
> 
> Therefore to avoid ahem 'coffee conflict' I have used the single spout over the weekend. She is working tomorrow, I am not.
> 
> Bring it on my spurting friend...


I can't wait for your next 'episode' now









Hold on though . . . Single spout p/f? Why single?


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## igm45

MildredM said:


> I can't wait for your next 'episode' now
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hold on though . . . Single spout p/f? Why single?


I shall keep you all posted tomorrow, I use single as it makes dispensing into the cup easier, does single spout make any difference in the cup?


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## pedg

igm45 said:


> does single spout make any difference in the cup?


No


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## igm45

Nod said:


> I also recommend the tooth pick or bbq skewer for stirring...


I guess this is the method you refer to?

https://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distribution-technique.html

I will also try direct into pf tomorrow and will let you know how I get on


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## igm45

So,

Still got problems, photos and a video this time:

1st photo stirred distribution with cocktail stick.

2nd photo, tamped puck

Video result is a bit dark but you get the idea.

Discuss


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## kennyboy993

What's your tamper size img?

Looks to be a little under-tamped border on that?


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## MildredM

Ooohf! Am I the only one to step back so I didn't get splashed when I watched your vid?! I had a similar thing yesterday when I changed beans, it is very unpleasant!

Ditto Kennyboy993, what's your tamper size?


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## igm45

Both basket and tamper were supplied with the machine (58mm). I have often wondered if the borders cause issues.

Part of me suspects I will end up buying 3 new items towards coffee enlightenment:

1) IMS shower screen

2) VST basket (whilst these seem to be highly rated they also need some real skill to use based on my research).

3) 58.4mm tamper (probable the Motta)

I'm desperately trying to improve without reaching for my pocket.

I'm into my mountain biking and when I started out someone said to me before you buy all the gear the best money you will spend is on yourself, i.e coaching. Just having the best equipment doesn't make you the best.


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## igm45

What are your views on photo one, after skewer mixing. If anything the grinds seem to become clumpier as I mix, is this normal?


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## igm45

@kennyboy993 have you resolved the channelling issues you were having?


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## kennyboy993

Ha ha so true img. It's not a cheap passion is it.

I have those 3 items you may be purchasing - my 58.4 is a motta too, it's great. I've had them since I started this so don't know what's it's like without a vst though have not found it unduly difficult to get good results from.

Ah well I'm happy to say yes I have!

Updates to my workflow are as follows:

1. After stirring clumps I now do 2 quite gentle taps on the worktop then try to level the top with side of finger taps on the pf. Previously my taps were quite hard.

2. I now tamp in 1 continuous movement and do not spin. I'm now MUCH more careful and slow when pulling the tamper out of the basket.

3. I'm now much more careful when fixing the pf in to the group - so it minimises any sudden movements or taps against the group head etc.

This and probably some other more subtle stuff has really sorted it out.


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## igm45

I'm pleased you were able to resolve the issues mate.

With all the 'right so I weigh this, put it in that with that, stir with this, then this, then that' from your list I forgot to:

1) The tap

3) I'm not sure how careful I was, it definitely wasn't a conscious effort though.

So much to try, and so much to remember...


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## kennyboy993

igm45 said:


> What are your views on photo one, after skewer mixing. If anything the grinds seem to become clumpier as I mix, is this normal?


Looks good to me, for something that's needed to be stirred.

Very much like mine - I then gently tap to make the top of the mound as even as possible without actually touching the grinds with my finger


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## igm45

Thanks, will try next time. Very low on beans until my rave delivery has degassed so having to eeeeeek them out..


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## Stanic

igm45 said:


> Both basket and tamper were supplied with the machine (58mm). I have often wondered if the borders cause issues.
> 
> Part of me suspects I will end up buying 3 new items towards coffee enlightenment:
> 
> 1) IMS shower screen
> 
> 2) VST basket (whilst these seem to be highly rated they also need some real skill to use based on my research).
> 
> 3) 58.4mm tamper (probable the Motta)
> 
> I'm desperately trying to improve without reaching for my pocket.
> 
> I'm into my mountain biking and when I started out someone said to me before you buy all the gear the best money you will spend is on yourself, i.e coaching. Just having the best equipment doesn't make you the best.


Very true

Those three upgrades should help a lot with extraction, if you can't stretch to VST, IMS is also an option, but I'd recommend the former


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## igm45

Stanic said:


> Very true
> 
> Those three upgrades should help a lot with extraction, if you can't stretch to VST, IMS is also an option, but I'd recommend the former


Nooo...

Don't encourage me. I am weak, oh so very weak.


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## nightslayer

igm45 said:


> @nightslayer do you have a photograph of your distributor?


Sorry this took a while -









Additionally, I've got a 57mm tamper (in a 58mm Gaggia basket) and though a lot of people here seem to think 58.4 is essential.. FWIW personally, generally I've not had issues (they were all caused by other things!) with that small ring it leaves after tamping. I still get occasional spritzes, but from what I hear you're never entirely rid of them even with the 58.4 precision, and it's usually not more than a very minor thing anyway, with even beading at the start going into three/two/one stream after a while indicating a generally even percolation. The distributor helped loads though; and I tap the side of the portafilter to get a roughly even distribution before leveling it off with the tool.


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## Obnic

Keep it simple for now.

A proper tamper that fits is a good idea. Talk to CoffeeChap, he's clearing out some of his.

Perhaps think about VST baskets in due course once you've nailed distribution. (They are merciless and will cause you misery until you can distribute and control flow rate by changing the grind.). Ignore them for now.

That said, make sure you are using a dose that's right for your basket. Too much coffee and you run the risk of the shower screen interfering with puck expansion as it saturates (channeling). Too little and the puck can also break up.

IMS screen can wait. You can get great espresso without this plus they are frail. Distribution tool can wait too. Never had one myself and never missed it.

The WDT really works. I have included a photo of my paper clip on a stick that I use if distribution is tricky. The aim is to get the same density of coffee across the whole basket - don't just stir the middle. A paper clip is thin enough to stir without compressing the grounds. The lolly stick can be used to level grounds if you are overfilling your basket.

The tamping video above is good advice too.

Do what you did last time but tighten the grind until you almost choke your machine and see whether coffee appears in all the basket holes at once or on one side / ring around the outside first. That will tell you if your distribution technique is getting better.

Assuming your distribution is working, back off the grind until you get your target brew ratio in around 30 seconds.

Simples.


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## igm45

@Obnic

Thank you for that, I shall persevere and see where it takes me. As I alluded to earlier I am aware that all the gear no idea isn't always best so I appreciate the advice in holding off on the basket/screen. With regards to tamper should I still get a 58.4 mm despite the basket not being VST?

Could you post a photo of your distributed basket so I have an idea of what it should look like pre-tamp please?

The almost choking machine idea is new to me, I follow the logic and it seems like a good idea so will give that a go.

I was thinking of increasing my dose, think I will keep that the same whilst I change the grind for now.

10mm


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## igm45

@Obnic

I see that coffeechap is selling a couple, realistically the convex is the only one I can even consider atm.

What is the consensus on convex tampers?

That is 58.3, should I go for that or the 58.4 motta?


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## hotmetal

In my opinion, (for what that's worth!) a flat base tamper that's 58.whatever is the way to go. I've got a 58.35 flat Knock and a convex Torr Goldfinger 58.4 which I use in my VST 18g basket. Both fit well, certainly sealing the edges much better than my cheap "58mm" tamper which is actually slightly under 57.5. The flat base feels more positive and it's easier to know you have it level. I can make just as good coffee with the convex, and it is a thing of beauty, but the convex base introduces an element of vagueness in the feel of it. I was curious to try a convex, and Coffee Chap likes them for their forgiving nature, so I was happy to try it. But I'd probably swap both my tampers for his flat sharp edge Goldfinger (I really don't need 4 tampers!)


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## Obnic

If you have a vernier caliper, measure the inside diameter of your basket. 58.3 might be just right. You don't want the tamper to be exactly the same size as your basket or you'll lift the puck when you take out the tamper. Basket diameter - 1mm is snug.

58.4 is the right size if you intend to get VST baskets in future. I have no doubt that CoffeeChap can provide you with other tamper bases in future should you wish to change.

I have a 58.4 convex Reg Barber tamper that I use with VST baskets. If it were 58.3 I doubt I would really notice. I have a flat 54.55 as well. I flit between the two.

St Matt Perger says that a flat tamper base gets you the most even puck depth. I have an unscientific theory that a convex base can help seal the puck to the basket edge resulting in fewer donut pours.

---

As for dose vs basket size it depends on your bean. I find some dark beans are very fluffy and need a bigger basket for a given weight of coffee (I guess the beans contain less moisture). Other medium and lighter beans don't fill the basket as much for the same dose so I'll switch to a smaller basket.

I aim for around 6-7mm below the rim once the puck is tamped but my machine has a deep showerscreen. If your basket has a ridge that the portafilter spring clips onto then that can be a sensible guide for depth of puck.

Most double baskets should be good for 16-18g doses.


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## nightslayer

Ah yeah never meant to say distribution tools were essential - I just use them because they are far less fiddly than a paperclip on a stick and I had access to a (friend with a) 3D printer  But distribution is, however you go about getting it!


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## igm45

nightslayer said:


> Ah yeah never meant to say distribution tools were essential - I just use them because they are far less fiddly than a paperclip on a stick and I had access to a (friend with a) 3D printer  But distribution is, however you go about getting it!


Thanks,

I also have access to a friend with a 3d printer, I dont suppose you have the model saved and willing to share so I can get my friend to make one for me.


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## igm45

I just noticed this:

Oh the irony!


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## igm45

Evening update guys,

At @Obnics advice I dialled the grind in finer (still not fine enough it seems). Stirred with cocktail stick, tapped on side, however it seems that momentarily my power was replaced with the hulks and we had some side spillage.

Not one to panic (read oh sh...ugar what do I do) I went back to stirring, give it another side tap, may have overcompensated and gone with the force of tinkerbell...

Anywho, bottom tap, tamp until resistance felt. Put in machine (with extreme delicacy).

Pull lever and wait with nervous trepidation (it really is a love/hate moment this), starts ok (imo) then double spout... Whats that about?

Whilst still spurting its now with the force of leprechaun wee (maybe) as opposed to the kitchen tap..

As always video attached.






10mm


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## Obnic

OK. The good news is we now know your distribution sucks. . Everyone has been here.

Here's three images from the first few seconds of your film that clearly show water getting through the left side of your puck first then gradually rolling across.




























Forget the tapping. Put the coffee straight into the portafilter. Stir it to get an even depth of coffee at every point in your basket. Tamp level.


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## MildredM

Just remind us of the weight of coffee in your p/f . . .

I like the leprechaun analogy!!!!


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## igm45

Obnic said:


> OK. The good news is we now know your distribution sucks. . Everyone has been here.
> 
> Here's three images from the first few seconds of your film that clearly show water getting through the left side of your puck first then gradually rolling across.
> 
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> 
> Forget the tapping. Put the coffee straight into the portafilter. Stir it to get an even depth of coffee at every point in your basket. Tamp level.


Thank you again, that makes sense, the side tap did result in spillage to the rhs so that may go some way in explaining the issue.

I shall give it another go in the morning (only have a whopping 2 coffees left in my current bag, I think I deserve a medal for my self managed dispensing of my addiction)


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## igm45

MildredM said:


> Just remind us of the weight of coffee in your p/f . . .
> 
> I like the leprechaun analogy!!!!


That was 14.5g in the basket. As per my previous post I am having to be ever so stingy until the big bags degass. That said my two cups tomorrow are both 18g.


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## MildredM

igm45 said:


> That was 14.5g in the basket. As per my previous post I am having to be ever so stingy until the big bags degass. That said my two cups tomorrow are both 18g.


I feel slightly worried about your dwindling supply - can I send you some!! I've just checked the stock room (pantry) and it appears my inventory is somewhat high (as in I'm having a job closing the door)!


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## kennyboy993

MildredM said:


> I feel slightly worried about your dwindling supply - can I send you some!! I've just checked the stock room (pantry) and it appears my inventory is somewhat high (as in I'm having a job closing the door)!


Forum mum! And I for one feel very grateful.


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## igm45

MildredM said:


> I feel slightly worried about your dwindling supply - can I send you some!! I've just checked the stock room (pantry) and it appears my inventory is somewhat high (as in I'm having a job closing the door)!


Mildred,

That is both a kind and lovely offer, thank you so much. Should the time arise consider the favour returned no question.

Love the thought of the pantry being that full of delicious beans though.

Alas I just have to see tomorrow out, then I'm away on a course in lovely Cirencester (any coffee shop recomendations welcome btw) upon my return the Rave bag will be ripped open and my poor machine won't know what hit it (or sprayed it)


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## Obnic

igm45 said:


> ....then I'm away on a course in lovely Cirencester....


 Who ya gonna call? @coffeechap @CallumT

Rave Coffee

Unit 7, Stirling Works

Love Lane, Cirencester

GL7 1YG


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## MildredM

igm45 said:


> Mildred,
> 
> That is both a kind and lovely offer, thank you so much. Should the time arise consider the favour returned no question.
> 
> Love the thought of the pantry being that full of delicious beans though.
> 
> Alas I just have to see tomorrow out, then I'm away on a course in lovely Cirencester (any coffee shop recomendations welcome btw) upon my return the Rave bag will be ripped open and my poor machine won't know what hit it (or sprayed it)


Thanks









Oooh! Cirencester, lovely indeed







It's quite a while since I was there (I seem to recall having my coffee in Cricklade Street, but whatever it was called probably isn't still around now). And I'm not sure I knew about Rave back then!

Let us know where you end up!


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## igm45

Obnic said:


> Who ya gonna call? @coffeechap @CallumT
> 
> Rave Coffee
> 
> Unit 7, Stirling Works
> 
> Love Lane, Cirencester
> 
> GL7 1YG


That's where I'll be headed to get my hit then, great recomendation, thanks


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## igm45

Obnic said:


> Who ya gonna call? @coffeechap @CallumT
> 
> Rave Coffee
> 
> Unit 7, Stirling Works
> 
> Love Lane, Cirencester
> 
> GL7 1YG


My course is 4 miles down the road so will definitely be headed here. Do you know if there is parking there?


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## igm45

That tamper has become even more tempting too..


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## Obnic

igm45 said:


> My course is 4 miles down the road so will definitely be headed here. Do you know if there is parking there?


Yes. Parking is fine at the roastery. Introduce yourself and I bet Callum will help you sort your distribution issues there and then. Top chap.

If you can meet up with CoffeeChap too you'll make an important connection for when upgraditis hits.


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## Stanic

> Whilst still spurting its now with the force of leprechaun wee (maybe) as opposed to the kitchen tap..
> 
> As always video attached.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> is my video with Rancilio Silvia and a VST 18g basket, the flow is not perfect but I consider it acceptable


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## igm45

That looks great. Will grind finer and see what the morning brings


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## igm45

Right wife off to work, kids packed off to school.

Grinder dialled in finer, I *think* I am improving. Video upload attached but seems quite poor when viewed on youtube so have taken some screen shots like yesterday:

No spurts


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## igm45

Obnic said:


> OK. The good news is we now know your distribution sucks. . Everyone has been here.
> 
> Here's three images from the first few seconds of your film that clearly show water getting through the left side of your puck first then gradually rolling across.
> 
> 
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> 
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> 
> Forget the tapping. Put the coffee straight into the portafilter. Stir it to get an even depth of coffee at every point in your basket. Tamp level.


Going by this observation yesterday I think todays is similar albeit less extreme. Except, helpfully, todays seems to start from right going left...


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## Obnic

As requested, a picture of this mornings dose: 18g in a 20g VST basket. Medium roast Guatemalan.










Edit: I lie! 18g in an 18g VST. Sorry, mad minute.


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## MildredM

kennyboy993 said:


> Forum mum! And I for one feel very grateful.


That's ok, son . . . .


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## igm45

Obnic said:


> As requested, a picture of this mornings dose: 18g in a 20g VST basket. Medium roast Guatemalan.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Edit: I lie! 18g in an 18g VST. Sorry, mad minute.


Super,

Thank you obnic. This morning was just a shade under 18g in the Lelit basket (they say 14g).


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## Stanic

Looks much better, how was the taste?


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## hotmetal

They *probably* say 14g based purely on the notional 'traditional espresso = 7g' idea. I may be wrong but it seems a coincidence and I'll bet you can use 16-18 in that basket.


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## igm45

Stanic said:


> Looks much better, how was the taste?


I take heart from that, whilst my intention of doing the videos was to get advice from those on the forum (and thank you all, it is helping and gratefully received). I would recommend others to do the same as it can be disheartening when you feel like you arent getting anywhere.

In terms of the taste, despite it being more intense (16.5g in 38 sec) I really enjoyed it.

Previously the first half of my shots were very bitter, whereas that shot was balanced throughout the cup with a lasting aftertaste.

Please excuse my poor description of flavours, I'm sure I will develop my palette in time. I know what I like in the cup but struggle to verbalise it.


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## igm45

hotmetal said:


> They *probably* say 14g based purely on the notional 'traditional espresso = 7g' idea. I may be wrong but it seems a coincidence and I'll bet you can use 16-18 in that basket.


That was certainly my logic too. I must get some form of hopper (or yoghurt pot), I got away with it this morning as the beans are light, the darker beans will overspill pre tamping, of that I am sure.


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## hotmetal

If it's a 58mm you can use a container from a "Cocon" mango jelly pudding (Tesco and Asda sell them in packs of 6). They're the right size and shape, just cut the bottom off at the right height/diameter with a scalpel and it'll sit in the basket without messing with your edges. I'd send you mine but I think postage might be as much as a packet of the things and you might as well at least have the dessert inside!

Edit: piccy.


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## igm45

hotmetal said:


> If it's a 58mm you can use a container from a "Cocon" mango jelly pudding (Tesco and Asda sell them in packs of 6). They're the right size and shape, just cut the bottom off at the right height/diameter with a scalpel and it'll sit in the basket without messing with your edges.


Great,

On the shopping list, thank you.


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## Stanic

igm45 said:


> whereas that shot was balanced throughout the cup with a lasting aftertaste.


oh yeah!


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## Obnic

igm45 said:


> Grinder dialled in finer, I *think* I am improving. [/img]


That looked loads better. Grind just a bit too tight. Definitely on your way now.


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## igm45

igm45 said:


> Great,
> 
> On the shopping list, thank you.


I went into Tesco to have a quick lool this afternoon with no luck. Maybe my local store doesn't stock it.

Bit of a stupid question, I take it is in the Jelly section as opposed to chilled?


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## igm45

Obnic said:


> That looked loads better. Grind just a bit too tight. Definitely on your way now.


Did so,

28g in 31 seconds (forgot I had 18g in basket old habits die hard). Same problem you identified before in that it filled from one side, it still led to a nice single stream with no spurts.

By no means perfect but really feel like I'm on the right path and thanks to this forum now know what I'm looking for.

For those newbies reading this, buy a naked pf, stick with it.

As said before I still have some way to go but the difference in the cup is significant and drives you forward.


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## Nod

Check the machine is level with a spirit level... this was the cause for me when I had one side brewing before the other....


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## Nod

Also tamp and then rotate the basket - if it switches sides then u r tamping unevenly...


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## igm45

Nod said:



> Check the machine is level with a spirit level... this was the cause for me when I had one side brewing before the other....


Will do, thanks, seems unlikely as the first time it moved left to right. Then right to left, then left to right again.


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## Nod

Sounds like tampingthen....


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## igm45

Nod said:


> Sounds like tampingthen....


Yep,

As noted above, first step to fixing a problem is having knowledge of it..


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## hotmetal

Glad it's coming together! Some good tips shared - and a 'nod' to @Nod for his tamping tips - which occurred to me today looking up at my own basket - I had 2 shots in a row where the right side was a bit slow to start and I wondered about turning the basket 180 to check it wasn't tamping bias on my part. But then the 3rd was ok (until the water ran out mid shot - D'oh!)

I'm not sure which aisle the cocon is - I always do 'click and collect' cos I live 100 yards from a Tezzy Express.


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## 9719

Might be worth going back over the Chris Baca vid again the bit around 4min 10sec helped alot with checking levels, something that wouldn't have crossed my mind to look at. @whitlyj printed me one of these and it's a great leveler, might be a wait for him to do it as I believe he works away for long periods of time https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1611828

More here https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=430988

Although going by the progress your making it might be an unnecessary extra, enjoy the jelly when you find it


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## igm45

MildredM said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Oooh! Cirencester, lovely indeed
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> It's quite a while since I was there (I seem to recall having my coffee in Cricklade Street, but whatever it was called probably isn't still around now). And I'm not sure I knew about Rave back then!
> 
> Let us know where you end up!


Went to Rave this morning, went with the signature, Ethiopian blend.

Sublime, will make every effort to go again during the week.


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## igm45

mines_abeer said:


> Might be worth going back over the Chris Baca vid again the bit around 4min 10sec helped alot with checking levels, something that wouldn't have crossed my mind to look at. @whitlyj printed me one of these and it's a great leveler, might be a wait for him to do it as I believe he works away for long periods of time https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:1611828
> 
> More here https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?p=430988
> 
> Although going by the progress your making it might be an unnecessary extra, enjoy the jelly when you find it


Just noticed that the file is available to print from. A colleague of mine has a 3d printer so will give that a go.

I will watch the video again, I am consciously looking at levels mind you.


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## MildredM

igm45 said:


> Went to Rave this morning, went with the signature, Ethiopian blend.
> 
> Sublime, will make every effort to go again during the week.


Sounds fantastic . . . I'm pretty envious!


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## pedg

igm45 said:


> That tamper has become even more tempting too..


Morning @img45

I'm using a cafelat 58.35mm one at the moment and its really good! I've got a Torr 58.55 sharp edge as well which is also good, but I'm finding the Cafelat slightly easier to use. Not expensive either.

I' m also using a Bottomless PF &VST Baskets.


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## igm45

Thanks @pedg,

I can't seem to find a caffelat one anywhere. I probably will go with the Motta 58.4mm.

Like @Drewster I love the look of @coffeechap 's sharp edge but don't have that 'spare' £90 either..


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## Stanic

even cheaper option is the 58,4 mm IMS tamper base 'BAAC 58.4 F '


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## igm45

Stanic said:


> even cheaper option is the 58,4 mm IMS tamper base 'BAAC 58.4 F '


Unfortunately not cheaper here, can't find that one for sale in the UK either


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## igm45

Been away on a course so no practice for the last few days, spent today dialling in my Rave beans.

Quite pleased with my progress:


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## eddie57

igm45 said:


> Been away on a course so no practice for the last few days, spent today dialling in my Rave beans.
> 
> Quite pleased with my progress:


hi mate, do you find you have to grind finer than normal with the rave beans? im struggling but then again i am a novice


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## igm45

I'm a novice too, hence this thread!

Firstly have you allowed time for them to degas?

Regardless I did find that I had to grind quite fine. I was moving from a lighter bean so expected to need a coarser grind but found that wasn't the case


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## eddie57

igm45 said:


> I'm a novice too, hence this thread!
> 
> Firstly have you allowed time for them to degas?
> 
> Regardless I did find that I had to grind quite fine. I was moving from a lighter bean so expected to need a coarser grind but found that wasn't the case


yea waited over 10 days, i drink milk based coffee very nice just wish i could dial in quicker


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## igm45

Do you have a naked pf? I am finding dialling in a lot easier now that my distribution/tamping has improved


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## eddie57

yea i have naked pf, maybe because i only use 14g in my basket i dont know any more and i start climbing the walls lol


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## igm45

Are you weighing input/output? What you currently getting?


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## eddie57

igm45 said:


> Are you weighing input/output? What you currently getting?


yea weighing input/output.. i was using a vst 18g basket tried la marzocco 14g this morning had 14g in and 30g out in 25 seconds..more like it


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## igm45

igm45 said:


> I went into Tesco to have a quick lool this afternoon with no luck. Maybe my local store doesn't stock it.
> 
> Bit of a stupid question, I take it is in the Jelly section as opposed to chilled?


Found it.

In world food sections...


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## igm45

@hotmetal,

Thank you the pot is a great fit. Stupid question time (again), I know "no such thing as a stupid question, except there is.."

With regards to workflow, do you:

Put pot in basket

Fill

Stir

Tap (downwards)

Remove basket

Tamp

Or

Put pot in basket

Tap

Remove pot

Stir

Tamp

If option 1 does that not leave a gap around the edge?


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## hotmetal

I don't do the WDT (although you can do - that's a separate issue). I just use the funnel while grinding into it. I then remove the funnel, tap to even it out (sideways), then down, then tamp. Nowadays I have a Coffee Catcha (kindly given to me by TSK) and that sits on top of the basket so it definitely doesn't mess with the edges. Of course, how far into the basket the Cocon pot reaches is dependent on where you cut it.


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## igm45

Thank you,

I will keep experimenting and find what works best.


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## igm45

After a bit more help if someone could be so kind:






This shot seemed to be very fast flowing towards the end.

Is that channeling? If so what am I doing wrong/how can that be addressed?

It seems to start well and has no spurting.


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