# Ristretto help



## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Hi there,

I wanted to play last night so decided to see if I could make a ristretto. I upped the dose in my LM double basket to 20g and ground a few notches finer on my Vario and tamped as normal. The result was total espresso porn, as it came out thick and gloopy from my naked portafilter, getting just under 2oz in 42 seconds. It was centered, tiger striping, dark, and had none of the little spritzes that I sometimes get when making espresso. The crema was thick and deep, the taste was sweet, balanced and full bodied. The mouthfeel was thick and seemed to coat my mouth with a flavor that lasted a good 5 to 8 minutes after finishing the drink.

My problem is this: I suspect it was a complete fluke! I'd like to know how it is that people avoid overextraction in a ristretto? In theory, it sounds like you'd just end up with an overextracted espresso rather than a sweet, intense version that still has balance. I'm scared to pull another one in case it was a fluke haha.

So yeah, can somebody explain to me how the shot wasn't overextracted and if there is a method to that so I can repeat it?

I'm probably trying you run before I can walk here. I've been getting some brilliant shots recently, but sometimes some really cack ones. And as mentioned above, my naked portafilter is exposing some issues in my technique, namely those tiny sprays. So I should probably really be focussing on consistency with espresso first! But hey, for a quick play, I had a delightful experience!

Anyone who can advise more I'm ristretto? I've searched and there's not many threads focussing on them.

Cheers!

Tom


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

Playing is good! Glad you're getting good shots









"Ristretto" is a somewhat non-specific term, but the generally accepted definition is from it's linguistic root - a "restricted" shot is the usual translation I have heard. This tends to mean it is shorter (of smaller volume) than a "normale"/espresso. In turn, a "lungo"/Long shot would be of greater volume than a normale.

Unfortunately, the volume of a normale is not universal, so Ristretto/Lungo only make sense relative to your normale.

(I quite like the Andy Schecter suggestion, recomended by Scott Rao, that we use arbitrary definitions, based upon the dose mass/shot mass ratio - ristretto 1:1, normale 1:2, lungo 1:3 - but that's at a tangent to your question







)

Anyway, to get back to the original point:

More ristretto shots (you might also call them shorter shots, tighter shots, etc.) tend to be stopped earlier in the extraction (i.e. before blonding has progressed as far as a normale would). This means that the ristretto could be thought of as less extracted - there is still flavour in the dry coffee that isn't going to be extracted. During different parts of the espresso shot, different flavours are extracted - so it's not as simple as saying ristretto is underextracted - it has a different flavour profile to a normale and it's all about what kind of flavours you prefer and what suits the coffee you're using.

(You can understand more about that by a simple experiment - pull a shot and switch in different espresso cups every 8 seconds, then taste each cup - the differences are astonishing and very educational!)


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

A little light reading:

http://www.jimseven.com/2007/01/02/espresso-extraction-ratios/

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/brewing-ratios-for-espresso-beverages-t2402.html


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Roland, I was under the impression that rather than just stopping the shot earlier, it was more about changing the variables in grind and dose (and brew pressure if you're a fancy pants) to slower the speed of extraction?

Thanks for that tip on experimenting with different phases of the shot! I've never thought of anything like that, I'll put it on my todo list for tonight or tomorrow morning! I guess it must be write handy fit learning how long to key a particular blend run for.

Cheers Mike, I was a bit confused by the whole marketing by weight thing (rather hoped I'd never have to look at maths after GCSE!) But that chart has made it much clearer. I think I'll aim next time to pull a 100% ristretto next, then experiment either side of that to find my preference


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Great







please keep us updated.

Sounds like you're where I was when I wrote these. They may be a little too techy for some but could help.

http://haggieslab.blogspot.com/2011/05/holy-grail-espresso.html

http://haggieslab.blogspot.com/2011/05/more-on-perfect-espresso.html


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Blimey Mike! Very useful reading, thanks! You're right about my mind being in the same place as your articles. Its sometimes difficult when researching and all you can find is posts from people who already know the lingo and how things work, so its nice to have it laid out in a way from the point of view of somebody who's written while they're learning









For the record, I think you should TM your catchy phrase lol. Print "don't just drink it...", on your cups then have the "...think it" printed on the saucers where the cup sits, so its only visible when the cup is lifted







I like gimmicks!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I love it! Free coffee to that man once we open.


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Ha! Will be worth the drive from London I am sure!


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

The way my espresso making has changed lately and the wide variety of variables you can employ to get different flavours from different beans I've stopped trying to categorize my shots and just try to make it something tasty. 2 months ago I used to enjoy a 1.5oz shot dragged out over 30 seconds (I never go beyond this) I considered this a ristretto as the pour was restricted, slow and shorter than the standard 2oz espresso. Now I pull all shots by mass so I now enjoy a 26g extraction in around 23 seconds. The volume would suggest this is more of a Ristretto but with this new method (to me anyway) the volume and timing can vary but still taste the same. I suspect your God shot was more than anything down to the beans. I keep a notebook listing all the variables (beans included) so I can reproduce any great shots again and again.


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Haha god shot! I think that's the most important thing really- to just create something perfect for yourself. I'll experiment as advised above to narrow my tastes down.

I haven't been able to get a ristretto like the other day, buy want expecting to, since it was fluke. Here's a video of an attempt earlier today. Worked out out as 77% brew ratio. Lovely mouthfeel, but a bit bitter at the first sip. The last sip was sweet though.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

More art for the "reflections in an espresso machine" exhibition


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Ha! Yeah I only realized at the last moment there was a reflection, hence silly wide eyes


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Nice looking pour:good:


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Looks nice. You said maybe you let it run a little too long... maybe, maybe not, but it's great that you're thinking about it. Traditionally a ristretto is 1oz, normalle 2oz, lungo 3oz and since you ran it 40 seconds and got 2oz perhaps you're right by traditional standards. Try keeping everything the same and stopping at 25-30 secs. Looking fwd to hearing the results


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

I've noticed something else I need for consistency....a new tamper! I have a 58mm tamper, but its restricted by the ridge in the basket.

Unfortunately I'm back to dialling in again, for some monsoon malabar, so I think next time I order I'll get plenty of one blend to make it easier to play. Confused actually, this new bean sprays out if my grinder so messily :/ usually it comes out in a near flow. Not keen on it anyway, its boring tasting.

Managed to impress my Sicilian friend with the ristretto made with Formula 6


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Monsoon Malabar is definitely an acquired taste. It's actually one of my favourites


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Maybe I'm getting it wrong, but I just can't pull a shot that excites my tastebuds with it. I've demoted it to morning latte duty, which it is actually doing fine in, so not a waste by any means








my tastes aren't sophisticated when I first wake, so I'm any acceptable shot from acceptable beans is good for latte.

Do you find that it grinds strange though? For some reason, since grinding these, it is shouting out all over the place. Usually my vario will create a neat, tall mound if the portafilter is kept still, but with this stuff it gets messy, with grinds flying out in all directions :/


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Don't remember having a problem with it. I get mine from Coffeebeanshop. Monsoon Malabar is definitely not for everyone. It has a smooth smokey flavour to it almost like a cigar. Where'd you get it from?


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Strange, my humidor says i should enjoy that lol. I got mine from james gourmet. Doubt its the grinder, I have it a clean a couple of days ago.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

Well I can certainly endorse Coffeebeanshop's roast. Lovely


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Will have to give it a go at some point. I got an ok shot last night, certainly enjoyable, but still didn't blow me away. Also, with both formula 6 and malabar I'm getting really soggy pucks, but can't figure why that doesn't happen with other beans I've tried..


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I find I get soggy pucks for any one of the following reasons...

Not dosing to the top of the basket (i.e. level) Too much headroom after tamping

Not grinding fine enough

Tamping too hard (see reason 1)

Pulling a shot longer than 28-30 seconds.

I also find straight baskets are more prone to it than ones that taper inwards


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Think I may need to try other baskets then, because to level off a LM double basket, its usually around 19-20g which is high







also I'll get a 57mm tamper soon as the 58mm is too big.

Made a double shot with hasbean jailbreak this morning, 19g used, fair amount of head room, but didn't get a soggy puck this time. Also, I noticed on the james gourmet beans, there was a lot more surface oil on the beans, so I'm wondering if maybe I'm experiencing roast profiles that I haven't crossed yet?


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

The roast will definitely affect the grind quality and therefore the puck. The puck should expand to press against the shower screen during your shot so there is no room for the water to sit in. Usually you can see an indentation of the shower screen and screw.


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## RolandG (Jul 25, 2010)

There are a whole variety of reasons you can end up with a slightly damp puck, including ones that are nothing to do with how you pull the shot. As long as the shot is tasty, I wouldn't worry about it - it's easier to clean up but it doesn't mean anything in terms of whether it will taste good or not (although there's a difference between slightly wet and sloppy!).

Monsoon Malibars tend (generalisation here!) to be relatively dark roasted, and are also very brittle beans because of the processing - this might be behind the difference in grinding you've seen. Don't worry about dosing less than the rim of the basket - in fact you'll need to do this to get the best out of beans with some flavour profiles. Do try different combinations of extraction time/dose/shot size - you'll notice different beans will suit different combinations.


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Ah that makes a lot of sense, thanks guys. I think the brittleness of the malabar beans must have been the cause of messy grinding. I've just started a bag of the new Breakfast Bomb from hasbean and it's been much easier to dial in and stuff. Also, same dose, but no soggy puck :/

Have realized I really an limiting myself with my current tamper. I HAVE to overdose a bit, because otherwise my tamper won't go far enough to create a decent puck. Payday is next week, I think a 57mm is due!


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

wouldnt it be cheaper to switch out your basket. I went the other way and got rid of my 57mm for a 58+mm...as all my baskets were too big for the 57


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

I agree with Gary. 58mm baskets and tampers are probably more standard than 57mm.


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Ok, could you perhaps recommend some decent baskets then please and where to buy them?

I have a LM double, the standard Fracino double and a large (double or triple) unbranded basket that came with a naked portafilter from happydonkey. I think the happy donkey one fits the tamper, but its deep and only fits the naked portafilter - it won't lock into the machine when fitted to the standard portafilter.

Just a nice double basket that will allow a 58mm tamp without it being restricted? Thanks


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

How much is your preffered dosage? Have a look here I use the Synesso double which holds about 17.5g. It's a good basket and fits in my standard PF.


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Just ordered the espresso parts double which is a similar thing by the sound of it. They were out of synesso ones.

Picked up done pallo tips too. Amazing how a person on a forum can make you spontaneously spend money ha.


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

hahaha... Look into my eyes.... you need one of these


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

Omg you're right! Unfortunately, I don't have the money to buy one of those, which is a shame, especially since I definitely have the stupidity and recklessness!


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