# ECM Synchronica or Profitec 700 or.....



## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Hopefully this time next week I will be collecting my Mythos CP

Then the next upgrade will be my machine...

At the moment I'm think about these options:

ECM Synchronika

Profitec 700

Londinium

thoights on the above would be appreciated and on anything else I should be looking at in this price range.

thanks


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rom said:


> Hopefully this time next week I will be collecting my Mythos CP
> 
> Then the next upgrade will be my machine...
> 
> ...


I am not being arsey, but your list only needs the addition of a Rocket of some sort to make it soooooooo boring and predictable! Are you going to BB? If so, have a look at the top end Lelit or if you want a wild crd, an Orchestrale Nota which will still be burbling away in 100 years as it is built to industrial standards. Do not do what many do which is glance at specs and say no HX for example


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Hum . . . the L-R isn't boring!!


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## Banjoman (Apr 18, 2017)

Rom said:


> Hopefully this time next week I will be collecting my Mythos CP
> 
> Then the next upgrade will be my machine...
> 
> ...


As it hasn't been mentioned - consider the ACS Vesuvius - a beautifully made and highly flexible (pressure profiling) machine. But I like all your other options too (boring or not)!


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

@dfk41

....please accept my full apology for being 'predictable' & 'boring'









I thought the forum was here for learning and sharing experiences at all levels? - including the beginner through to the pro?

Anyway, thanks for pointing out the other machines that I wasn't aware of, I'll have a look at them


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Forgot to mention @dfk41 - if I buy new I will be going to BB. But open to 2nd hand machines as and when I've got some money saved


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Rom said:


> @dfk41
> 
> ....please accept my full apology for being 'predictable' & 'boring'
> 
> ...


I was not being arsey, as I pointed out......when you buy a machine, it is a very personal thing. Most people will simply tell you what they have, because they are convinced that they made the right decision @MildredM......I did nor say the LR was boring, I said the list it is was on was.......all I am saying, is have a good look around


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I know ^^^ the typed word is no substitute for the spoken


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> I was not being arsey, as I pointed out......when you buy a machine, it is a very personal thing. Most people will simply tell you what they have, because they are convinced that they made the right decision @MildredM......I did nor say the LR was boring, I said the list it is was on was.......all I am saying, is have a good look around


 @dfk41 would you like someone to proof read your posts

















I really like my Profitec 700


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Nicknak said:


> @dfk41 would you like someone to proof read your posts
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But dfk really likes his Nota!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Two top end dual boilers that you'd struggle to differentiate between other than looks.

The ECM more "bling" the profitec more "industrial" looking. Taste wise and side by side I guess you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference as the internals are damn near identical and they both run flat pressure profile rotary pumps. The ECM has joysticks the profi spring valves on steam/hotwater that are very much personal preference or aesthetic in difference.

Then we have a prosumer lever machine thrown in the mix. A totally different beast with a totally different workflow and the shots will also be quite, you guessed it, different.

My advice would be to do some more research and actually experience the machines first hand before deciding.

There is a synchronika for sale on the forum that would be quite the saving on buying new if that's what you decide on.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Yes and I would be quite happy if no one else bought o e!



ashcroc said:


> But dfk really likes his Nota!


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Thats why I thought I'd start asking questions early so I can get peoples opinions and do a bit more research.

At the moment I've got an ECM hx with stainless boiler and rotary pump. It has the Tap type valves for steam and water, I prefer these compared to the joysticks but that wouldn't put me off getting the right machine.

This is similar to what I've got but mine is stainless boiler not copper.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/ecm-barista-grinder-package.html



ATZ said:


> Two top end dual boilers that you'd struggle to differentiate between other than looks.
> 
> The ECM more "bling" the profitec more "industrial" looking. Taste wise and side by side I guess you'd be hard pressed to tell the difference as the internals are damn near identical and they both run flat pressure profile rotary pumps. The ECM has joysticks the profi spring valves on steam/hotwater that are very much personal preference or aesthetic in difference.
> 
> ...


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

It's mentioned above the Vesuvius could be a option.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Rom said:


> Thats why I thought I'd start asking questions early so I can get peoples opinions and do a bit more research.
> 
> At the moment I've got an ECM hx with stainless boiler and rotary pump. It has the Tap type valves for steam and water, I prefer these compared to the joysticks but that wouldn't put me off getting the right machine.
> 
> ...


If you already have a machine with a rotary pump (albeit a HX) I seriously doubt you'd be able to taste much, if any, difference in the cup going to the 700 or Synchronika.

You'd essentially be paying for looks, bells and whistles like shot timers.

Do you want to experiment with different water temperatures or make lots of drinks back to back?


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

No I don't make lots of drinks back to back, or not very often.

We only drink espresso or americano so the steam boiler would be switched off.

Perhaps I should stick with what I've got then?


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Rom said:


> No I don't make lots of drinks back to back, or not very often.
> 
> We only drink espresso or americano so the steam boiler would be switched off.
> 
> Perhaps I should stick with what I've got then?


If you're espresso and black drink based then maybe a dual boiler would be worth the investment. a) to play with different shot water temperature easier without flushing and b) to enable you to switch off the steam boiler.

I drink mostly espresso and I've just invested in a lever for reference...


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

The temperature adjustment was the one thing I wanted a new machine for.. flushing is a bit of a pain sometimes. But the drinks I make are ok for now.. and the Mythos will make things easier. I loved my Royal but I'm done with single dosing for now...


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

MildredM said:


> Hum . . . the L-R isn't boring!!


Might be if you haven't got one to polish and admire, play with, have not even seen one in the flesh let alone played with one, got all the lovely bits and bobs in wenge which come with one, the picture on the wall etc etc not that I'm envious at all


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You have had a lot of advice.

1. You will find a big difference between a thermally accurate dual boiler and an HX machine, this difference will be in consistency and taste. Not all dual boilers are thermally accurate...but those that are consistently produce a good shot

2. A lever machine isn't really thermally accurate and you cannot select shot temperature. However they are silent in operation, unless a boiler is filling from an internal tank. They do have slightly more demanding space requirements. Dual boiler lever machines are a sensible development the manufacturers should adopt.

3. Most/all Dual boilers nowadays can have the service boiler switched off, this is a good thing

4. Separation of brewing and steaming is a good thing on a well designed dual boiler as steam pressure temperature doesn't influence shot temperature or flush size.

I would personally like to see HXs gradually be phased out by manufacturers in favour of dual boiler technology. For the cost of HXs they could just as easily be making dual boilers, arguably less profitable for them, but it's the right way to go. I would consider your choice of dual boiler carefully.


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> You have had a lot of advice.
> 
> 1. You will find a big difference between a thermally accurate dual boiler and an HX machine, this difference will be in consistency and taste. Not all dual boilers are thermally accurate...but those that are consistently produce a good shot
> 
> ...


 @DavecUK isn't the accuracy or a lever moot to a degree? The water hitting the group will always be consistent temp but it's the mass of thr group itself that provides that stability as I understand?

Kinda the opposite of an E61


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Not really..


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Not really..


I suppose it depends on the lever too mind. Dipper, HX or an electrically augmented group.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

ATZ said:


> @DavecUK isn't the accuracy or a lever moot to a degree? The water hitting the group will always be consistent temp but it's the mass of thr group itself that provides that stability as I understand?
> 
> Kinda the opposite of an E61


Why the opposite? Is the point of the mass of the E61 group to stabilise the temperature of the water exiting the group?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

May I suggest to the OP: if the OP doesn't make milk drinks, why have a dual boiler machine? Would it be s good idea for the water in the service boiler be there lukewarm most of the time?

If the OP wants temperature stability, shouldnt an ECM Classika or a Bezzera Unica do the trick? Or even a Gaggia Classic with a PID?


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

I had a Gaggia Classic about 5/6 years ago. I'm not going back from my ECM Rotary Pump, stainless boiler HX machine..


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rom said:


> I had a Gaggia Classic about 5/6 years ago. I'm not going back from my ECM Rotary Pump, stainless boiler HX machine..


What about the classika?

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk//ecm-classika-ii-pid-espresso-machine.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA9K3gBRA4EiwACEhFe8vY6nVwKmUh6fsx-axsC71es8tawWsvpwA3Mmb5_6aEriAr6xkb_RoCu7sQAvD_BwE

The only thing about this type of machines is they it might be harder to sell on.


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)




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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

I did find it hard to go back to a vibe pump after a few years of Rotary.



MediumRoastSteam said:


> What about the classika?
> 
> https://www.bellabarista.co.uk//ecm-classika-ii-pid-espresso-machine.html?gclid=CjwKCAiA9K3gBRA4EiwACEhFe8vY6nVwKmUh6fsx-axsC71es8tawWsvpwA3Mmb5_6aEriAr6xkb_RoCu7sQAvD_BwE
> 
> The only thing about this type of machines is they it might be harder to sell on.


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Typo above:

Id find it hard to go back to a vibe pump


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Why the opposite? Is the point of the mass of the E61 group to stabilise the temperature of the water exiting the group?


A lever group is massive in comparison to an E61, circa 7-8kg of brass verses 3-4kg for the latter.

This doesn't make one necessarily better or worse they're both just different. E61 maintains its stability from the circulating thermosyphon and the group mass, the lever group from the sheer mass of brass used.

A lever group actually cools the water on contact in a traditional dipper design as the water coming from the boiler will be significantly hotter than required to make a drink.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Rom - how often have you made a milk based drink for guests in the last couple of months?


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Zero



kennyboy993 said:


> Rom - how often have you made a milk based drink for guests in the last couple of months?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I think you will find the most startling improvement (without the need to play or fiddle with profiling) by switching to a lever machine


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

My suggestion would be to reconsider your attachment to rotary pump...... therefore opening up the high-end single boiler PID machines listed here.

Yes they sound so good don't they - though consider this:

On an e61 group head, apart from the pressure profiling machines, a vibe pump offers a much softer ramp up of pressure to the puck and in my experience much more protection from channelling.

After owning an e61 rotary (albeit it plumbed in) for a couple of years i found the really quick ramp up of pressure quite an issue for some coffee especially decaf and channelling was a problem. Yes I could have done line pressure pre-infusion though that's not all what it's cracked up to be.

I read some of the high end vibe machines have the pump well damped and can be quieter than you think ;-)


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> My suggestion would be to reconsider your attachment to rotary pump...... therefore opening up the high-end single boiler PID machines listed here.
> 
> Yes they sound so good don't they - though consider this:
> 
> ...


I think, don't quote me on this, the profitec Pro 300 has a vibe pump and in videos it's very very quiet due to the way they dampen it.

Also a dual boiler, saturated group and fast heat up time too, but depends if you can "vibe" with the utilitarian looks ;o)


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

But if the OP wants a different shot, then the influence of the pump on a single shot unless it is a Vesuvius style, it negligible. If you were making continual or back to back shots then yes. A lever as we all know, starts off with full spring power then declines and for many, this is the ultimate. this is why londinium changed the LR away from the original design as the earlier ones seem best suited to a darker roasted bean, where as the new ones by adjustment, can handle most


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> But if the OP wants a different shot, then the influence of the pump on a single shot unless it is a Vesuvius style, it negligible. If you were making continual or back to back shots then yes. A lever as we all know, starts off with full spring power then declines and for many, this is the ultimate. this is why londinium changed the LR away from the original design as the earlier ones seem best suited to a darker roasted bean, where as the new ones by adjustment, can handle most


If it were me and I was only making espresso or long blacks I'd get either a lever or the Lelit Bianca, the latter allows you to play with profiling in a tactile way.

For reference I also mainly drink espresso and long blacks and I've just bought a lever.


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

Thanks for all the interesting replies so far everyone, it's appreciated.


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