# To upgrade or not to upgrade?



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

Hi guys,

I made a thread over on the Gaggia forum but thought its better suited here.

I currently have a Gaggia Cubika Plus machine and Porlex hand grinder. Taking a while to pour a 20-30 sec shot after a lot of effort!

Now my machines Paranello wand keeps slipping off so need to replace it but I been thinking is it better to upgrade to a Classic or Baby Twin refurb pre phillips models or better to get a MC2 grinder and just replace the steam wand?

Thanks


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Yes, with a but. Buy a used mazzer/compak/macap off the bay, not an mc2 and don't buy the baby.


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

I cant afford both machine and grinder. So which would you choose?

Cant find any mazzer mini on ebay at the mo. Can you really get a used one for £120? Which is my max.


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Ooo toughy. Grinder. You can always upgrade the machine later.

Yeah just keep an eye out, bear in mind you may get lucky with a mazzer which isn't labelled as such.

Can't go wrong with any mazzer tbh.


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Disagree. Nothing much wrong with the MC2 at that price.


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

RoloD said:


> Disagree. Nothing much wrong with the MC2 at that price.


yeah a lot of fans for the M2 at its price point.

So you also think its better getting a grinder then a upgrade from Cubika Plus to a refurb Classic?


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

RoloD said:


> Disagree. Nothing much wrong with the MC2 at that price.


You're right. At that price point new.


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

Is it true that there wont be any espresso quality difference between the Cubika Plus and the Classic? I know the Classic has more power so steaming would be better but if thats the only difference (and solonoid valve) then im not sure if its worth another £120.

Do you guys agree?


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

nekromantik said:


> Is it true that there wont be any espresso quality difference between the Cubika Plus and the Classic? I know the Classic has more power so steaming would be better but if thats the only difference (and solonoid valve) then im not sure if its worth another £120. Do you guys agree?


 As others have said, it is the grinder that will make the difference. No one believes this until they have experienced it for themselves; not only does the quality of the grind make a significant difference, but a decent grinder enables you to adjust the grind to suit both the beans and machine - if the grind is too coarse, the extraction will be too quick and the coffee sour, if it too fine, the coffee will be too bitter and it could even choke the machine altogether. You just can't get this right with a cheap grinder!


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

Cool.

I thought the Porlex hand grinder was good enough for espresso.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

nekromantik said:


> Cool.
> 
> I thought the Porlex hand grinder was good enough for espresso.


A Porlex will give a grind fine enough for espresso, which is prerequisite no1! & the price is attractive if on a budget.. I should imagine dialling a coffee in would take about 25 minutes tho!

The time spent grinding is the one issue for me - the first grinds will be getting stale by the time the last few beans are being ground. How long does it take - 3-4-5 minutes grinding? A decent grinder will grind in 3-20 seconds with shot pulled ideally sub 1 minute total workflow time.

For the price of a new porlex you'd be very very lucky to find something decent electronic 2nd hand.


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

there is a second hand MC2 on ebay for £69 + delivery at the moment.


----------



## jimrobo (Aug 5, 2011)

always go grinder first, machine second.......thats not the way most of us have done it but thats why most of us can recommend going that route!


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

nekromantik said:


> Is it true that there wont be any espresso quality difference between the Cubika Plus and the Classic? I know the Classic has more power so steaming would be better but if thats the only difference (and solonoid valve) then im not sure if its worth another £120.
> 
> Do you guys agree?


The solenoid valve is the biggy, otherwise every time you just end up with all the gunk being splashed at you and you can't backflush as far as i'm aware.


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

Yeah it does take forever using the Porlex.

Thanks guys.

Is a second hand MC2 worth it? If its £69+p&p?

Also do you guys prefer doser or doserless? I figure doser will mean less grinds go to waste.


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

If you are serious about making espresso, a grinder is an investment. The more you spend at the beginning, the less you'll spend later on.

You will find you'll need a better grinder at some point so why not start with a decent one.

Highly recommend a used Mazzer Super Jolly (but replace the burrs) for anywhere around £200 - £250 (at £250 you'd expect it to be quite new or have a good history).

Good luck!


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

nekromantik said:


> Yeah it does take forever using the Porlex.
> 
> Thanks guys.
> 
> ...


Doser is good for breaking up clumps, aside from that it retains grinds, so the opposite.

Also doserless tend to suffer from static.

Iberital mc2 is a perfectly decent grinder, just, any mazzer is better built, grinds better.

Also, as fatboy said, if you can stretch to a used super jolly, do. It's doubtful you'd ever feel the need to upgrade from a SJ.


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

I doubt I can spend £200 at the moment. I wont be making it every day so getting a decent budget one will do me.

One guy says the solenoid valve will be a big difference in espresso extraction is this true?


----------



## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

the MC2 is a perfectly good grinder. Its the one i'm after for christmas, and for someone that only drinks 1-2 coffees a day, and is looking for a way to get nice fresh grind without the hassle, it's ideal.

People on here seem to be very one track mind when it comes to their mazzers, not realising that not everyone has 1) the budget, 2) the space or 3) the inclination to have a huge great commericial grinder sitting in their kitchen.

reality is, an MC2 well set up, will grind as good as any gaggia kubika, baby, classic could ever need.


----------



## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

nekromantik said:


> I doubt I can spend £200 at the moment. I wont be making it every day so getting a decent budget one will do me.
> 
> One guy says the solenoid valve will be a big difference in espresso extraction is this true?


Solenoid won't actually affect the espresso itself but will aid in cleaning (which will indirectly affect espresso quality) and also ease of use (drops pressure from the puck/basket after extracting a shot).

The Classic is a tried and tested machine, parts are cheap and its pretty easy to repair any problems yourself. It can also be upgraded to make it a better machine (rancilio steam wand = better microfoam in your frothy milk, PID = better temperature control and consistency).

Just make sure if you get a Classic that the boiler is in a good condition.

MC2 will probably do you a good service but be warned....you WILL want to upgrade sometime in the future.


----------



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

nekromantik said:


> Also do you guys prefer doser or doserless? I figure doser will mean less grinds go to waste.


Doserless without a doubt. The doser only really works if you are grinding coffee all day - you have to fill up the doser partitions which means your coffee is going stale if you aren't using it. The doserless version (which I believe is also called 'automatic') comes with a timer and you deliver straight into the portafilter.

By the way - I have a Mazzer Mini, but I previously had an Iberital MC2. Being over three times the price, the Mazzer is obviously better, but I still have no hesitation in recommending the MC2.  And as Shrink said, you may not have the space for a huge commercial grinder in your kitchen (second hand Mazzers are more likely to be the commercial variety).


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

Thanks guys. I will go for the M2 Doserless.

Need to also get a new paranello wand for my Cubika has current one keeps falling off!

I may get a classic closer to April for my birthday. From what I read the grinder will see improvement in shots with the Cubika Plus.


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

RoloD said:


> Doserless without a doubt. The doser only really works if you are grinding coffee all day - you have to fill up the doser partitions which means your coffee is going stale if you aren't using it. The doserless version (which I believe is also called 'automatic') comes with a timer and you deliver straight into the portafilter.
> 
> By the way - I have a Mazzer Mini, but I previously had an Iberital MC2. Being over three times the price, the Mazzer is obviously better, but I still have no hesitation in recommending the MC2. And as Shrink said, you may not have the space for a huge commercial grinder in your kitchen (second hand Mazzers are more likely to be the commercial variety).


A doser works well for breaking up clumps, also helps with static. Technically, most of the commercial grinders are meant to have the hoppers full too. Doesn't mean you can only use them that way.

Mazzer minis aren't exactly that big and when you take the hopper off a sj, it isn't exactly gargantuan either.


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

shrink said:


> the MC2 is a perfectly good grinder. Its the one i'm after for christmas, and for someone that only drinks 1-2 coffees a day, and is looking for a way to get nice fresh grind without the hassle, it's ideal.
> 
> People on here seem to be very one track mind when it comes to their mazzers, not realising that not everyone has 1) the budget, 2) the space or 3) the inclination to have a huge great commericial grinder sitting in their kitchen.
> 
> reality is, an MC2 well set up, will grind as good as any gaggia kubika, baby, classic could ever need.


Budget, i've seen minis for 75, space a mini is tiny without a hopper, it's certainly not a huge commercial grinder.

An iberital mc2 will simply not compare to a super jolly, nor a robur, mahlkonig, etc etc. Even on a classic, I noticed the shots were a little flat on the mazzer mini I had previously. That's why I bought the k10.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I use my doser purely for de-clumping and distribution, I single dose -there is zero grind retention. The convenience of having full access to the grind chute allows this.

I had an MC2 doserless and to single dose I had to whack the back of it after grinding as it retained >2g


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

RisingPower said:


> Budget, i've seen minis for 75, space a mini is tiny without a hopper, it's certainly not a huge commercial grinder.
> 
> An iberital mc2 will simply not compare to a super jolly, nor a robur, mahlkonig, etc etc. Even on a classic, I noticed the shots were a little flat on the mazzer mini I had previously. That's why I bought the k10.


I have not seen one Mini for under £300.

None on ebay at the mo either.


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

nekromantik said:


> I have not seen one Mini for under £300.
> 
> None on ebay at the mo either.


Not new, of course not, but used, yes. These are the kind of grinders you can buy used as they're built to last and fairly easy to repair.

300 for a used mazzer mini is a mistake. Super jolly for 200-250 is a no brainer.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Coffee-Grinder-Mazzer-Mini-Aut-/110973142142?pt=UK_BOI_Restaurant_RL&hash=item19d683c47e


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

I think Minis can be found 150-200

SJ's 200-250

Royals 250-400

Bare in mind Minis, even SJs are not particularly rapid at grinding and not much quicker than an MC2. I timed my Mini at over 20 seconds for 18g with new burrs, the Royal is more 5-8 seconds and the burrs are far from new.


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

I will keep my eye out for a used Mini.

If I cant find one by mid December then will go for MC2.


----------



## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

garydyke1 said:


> I think Minis can be found 150-200
> 
> SJ's 200-250
> 
> ...


Minis are quite slow. I thought the sj with the duranium burrs were reasonably quick?

Though once you start going up the scale to royal, roburs, konys, they grind considerably quicker.


----------



## twistywizard (Sep 3, 2012)

In the past 2 years I have gone from a Rocky --> Vario ---> SJ. Each was a good step up. Each has their benefits and weakness in a home environment. It is a bit of a faff witht the SJ and the doser. But I just weigh beans. Chuck them in, grind and keep going with the doser till I have what I need and then a quick hoover for the small left overs and away you go.

I would part with the SJ unless I was going for something even better. Height wise without the Hopper the SJ is only marginally taller than a Silvia...


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

14-15 seconds for 18g


----------



## RobD (May 2, 2012)

While I agree that buying a second hand Mazzer SJ or better can be a good investment there are things to watch out for as well, if you consider that a good percentage of them will come from a commercial environment and some could have had very hard lives and may well be a long way into their serviceable life span and may never had any real maintenance. i know i am not the only one to have found about 3-4years of accumulated crud under the bottom burr carrier on a mazzer!! not the best design i have seen.

there is a very long and involved thread on Hb about the pitfalls of buy second hand commercial grinders, not just mazzers and i suspect there are a few people that have spent hard earned cash on a machine that cant grind properly because it has a bent motor shaft. burr carrier or other issue that will not be cheap to rectify, its fine if you have the mechanical aptitude to repair it yourself but if you have to pay to get it prepared it will cost quite a bit. i remember part of the HB thread mentioned that unless a good quality grinder cannot grind as fine as talc without the burrs touching then it like to be on the way out.

I have an MC2 and i suspect as was mention in the "Can it beat the robur?" if you get the grind right on any decent grinder if you were blind taste tested you would be hard pushed to tell the difference = http://www.home-barista.com/grinders/titan-grinder-project-can-it-beat-mazzer-robur-t4499.html


----------



## nekromantik (Nov 13, 2011)

Thats a good point RobD.

I think the Cubika can make a good shot but I have removed the springs so de pressurized it so now its fussy with grinds. So finding good grind will be easier on a electric grinder.


----------

