# hi i am am currently negotiating my way through the coffee world HELP !



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Hi I am trying to open a coffee shop at the moment and would like a couple of bits and advice and opinions if possible.

1. I want to use a 2 stage lamaazoto coffee machine and would like to rent/lease any suggestions

2. I have been on a training course and it was suggested that a kilo of coffee beans would produce 50 shots and I was to use 2 shots per

drink ie cappuccino latte ect so I would only be getting 25 cups of coffee per kilo, does this sound correct as on other forums people are saying thing like 125 cups off coffee a kilo ??

3. I am also looking for a grinder as I used a super jolly automatic on the course I am drawn towards this on the basis of familiarity any suggestion on purchase verses rental and prices you would expect to pay .

Thank you for any feed back and advice it will greatly appreciated

Justin


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

A typical shot is 7 gm single 14 gm double, but we seems to like them a bit stronger. Forget the single but expect to dose at 14 to 18 gm typically, although nothing is written in stone. I am going to save you a lot of grief and tell you you want to open your coffeeshop with someone making coffee who really understands and knows what he is doing. An SJ is not good enough in this day and age, especially if paired with a La Marzocco of some sort.


----------



## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

My recommendation is perhaps more training.

1. There is no such thing as '2 stage lamaazoto' machine, maybe a nitrogen festival in Andes?

2. Depends on how much you dose into basket.

3. I suggest google search.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I am not being negative, but one day will look back and realise that because you have done a short beginners course somewhere, it does not qualify you to open and run a coffee shop. The of course depends on your expectations and the market you are aiming to capture. Coffee is an extremely complicated drink and unless you go bean 2 cup (don't!) then you need someone who can actually make a coffee. There is a lot more to it than dumping some ground beans into a pf, pressing a button and hoping something drinkable comes out! Please feel free to ask any questions and we will try to help.


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Can you describe what 'kind' of coffee shop you hope to open? A 'serious' coffee shop (often termed third wave) is quite a different proposition to a café.


----------



## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

You will end up using around 20g coffee to pull a double shot, so yes around 50 shots per Kg roasted coffee is what you will get. Try and do a lot more reading on the subject, at the moment *what you don't know* is very large in relation to what you do know and it's difficult to know where to start. There are many threads on the forum that will help you and many resources on the web.

e.g. http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/

It would help you a great deal if you purchased a prosumer machine for home and actually started drinking coffee/espresso/lattes etc.. It sort of helps if you are selling it. Also, just in case I have not made my self clear about your current lack of knowledge and you don't go overestimating what you know.......your course is just an introduction and when I last cleaned my porta filter, it probably knew more about coffee than you do at the moment.


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> I am not being negative, but one day will look back and realise that because you have done a short beginners course somewhere, it does not qualify you to open and run a coffee shop. The of course depends on your expectations and the market you are aiming to capture. Coffee is an extremely complicated drink and unless you go bean 2 cup (don't!) then you need someone who can actually make a coffee. There is a lot more to it than dumping some ground beans into a pf, pressing a button and hoping something drinkable comes out! Please feel free to ask any questions and we will try to help.


I do appreciate your feedback but I have to say I do find it very negative. I am just someone who is trying to do something for his family and himself . I do not profess to be able to make the perfect coffee nor do I profess to be an except already . I am just trying . That's all .

Give me a bit of credit A !

But Again thanks for your input

Justin


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

I would like to learn and learn and learn and open a proper coffee shop providing proper coffee

kind regards regards

Justin


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Thanks for your feedback. But I learnt just last week on a 2 stage ? Maybe I'm confused I don't know but thankyou

Justin


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Hi thank you for your reply . could you recommend a grinder more suitable.

Justin


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Hi I'm really sorry but you are about the 6th negative and somewhat aggressive reply I have read . I am just asking for advice and help not scare mongering and pretentious opinions. But thanks anyway.

Justin


----------



## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Hi Justin it all depends what kind of coffee shop you have in mind. If you're just looking to open a shop selling Lavazza coffee, cakes and sandwiches you will be able to learn that a lot sooner, if you want to be a specialist coffee shop selling the type of coffee we all love on this forum it will take a lot longer as there is a lot of skill and knowledge involved. I suppose it's the equivalent to a local pub selling one kind of wine and the specialist wine bar.

Either way way I think it's great your setting something up and I wish you the best of luck with your new venture.


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Hi thank you for your positive feedback

Justin


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I thought you got some good advice - you now know how many cups of coffee you will get per kilo, and also that the machine you mentioned doesn't exist.

I think with regards to lease costs you would need to book appointments with the sales departments of businesses who deal with commercial machines. Get some figures, work out the best deal etc. I don't think anyone can really advise you per se.

You can get all the platitudes you want but they won't won't help you set up a coffee shop! Good luck again!


----------



## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

justin said:


> Thanks for your feedback. But I learnt just last week on a 2 stage ? Maybe I'm confused I don't know but thankyou
> 
> Justin


hey, sorry, just could not resist a little joke on your account, since I work on a very similar machine at a third-wave café







we are a witty bunch here but rest assured we like to help

there is a specific terminology around coffee making which you will need to learn, just like there is a specific terminology in the construction industry so that people involved can communicate clearly

what you wanted to say is a two group La Marzocco machine - a group is the part of the machine where you insert the portafilter (i.e. the 'handle that carries the filter') and it provides input of hot water under pressure from the boiler, La Marzocco is one of the producers of high quality espresso machines, who was at the birth of the so-called third wave coffee - an approach aimed at producing high quality coffee through adhering to proper workflow and other important parameters

the filter, or as we call it, a basket, is an exchangeable part that actually holds the ground coffee and allows for extraction of the espresso, and these come in different shapes and sizes, so it depends - you can dose from 7 grams up to 25 grams with the latest VST baskets, usually a double is prepared with 18 grams of coffee using an 18 gram basket..but there is a lot of variability in this

as for the grinder, there are certainly better grinders than the Super Jolly you mention, there is a Sale part of these forums and it is possible to snatch a great bargains on good grinders but they usually go very quickly

the world of quality coffee is very addictive, once you try something really really good you don't want to go back to average and start chasing that "god" shot









we are glad to have you on board


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

2 stage ?


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Omg sorry 2 group lol thank you


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Thank you so so much . At last an informative and positive reply. And a sense of humour , fantastic I really was losing hope of the coffee community I was about to try and join.

Faith restored .

Much love and respect

Justin the wannabe coffee head/ person / barista/ shop owner / tryer


----------



## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

exactly and we've got the second one pictured, the La Marzocco Linea classic 2 AV, a two group automatic volumetric, this means there is a system for automatic measuring of the water volume that goes through a measuring device to ensure consistent dosing - the black and white buttons above the groups can be programmed to do this, of course the output can be controlled manually too

these machines can be obtained second hand for a lower price (we have such machine)

the first one is the La Marzocco fb80, a slightly different and nicer design but also with programmable output


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Hi guys

Thank you for your reply really appreciate it

The wannabe

Justin


----------



## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

and just for a good night, here is a short video how I make a so-called flat white coffee with that machine and Fiorenzato F64evo grinder









this is with an 18 gram basket, a double shot in one cup plus frothed milk


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

@justin welcome!

Please try not to get hung up on the style of the replies received and focus on the message - both Dave's (DFK and Davecuk) are very direct in their communication style BUT they're knowledgeable and everything they say here makes sense.

You can thank them both for a little brutality here because dropping thousands/tens of thousands and having to close in x months would be a lot more brutal!

I speak as someone who jumped into a coffee business with not enough knowledge/ thought!


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

My advice would be take your time and endure the banter - there's a wealth of knowledge here - and there's a lot of people here to help.


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Focus on knowledge and understanding - not equipment - at first.

Probably the first big decision is how good do you want to be? What's your audience?

What do you want to be in coffee-to-car terms: Rolls Royce, BMW, Ford, Lada or Perodua?

If you aspire to be in Rolls Royce territory you're going to have to work hard...


----------



## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Jon said:


> My advice would be take your time and endure the banter - there's a wealth of knowledge here - and there's a lot of people here to help.


I second this advice, those outside the industry or 'obssessive hobby' don't understand how much is involved in a great cup.

This forum has bought me along heaps already, that said the more time I spend here the more I realise I have to learn.

Trust me when I say despite the directness there is no better place for you to learn..


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Yes I appreciate that the messages are trying to be helpful. But don't appreciate the judgemental approach.

I am very naïve apprehensive , afraid and green to the world of coffee, hence why I am on this forum. So negativity does not wash with me.

I am taking a massive risk for the benefit of my family . So no one more than me is aware of the risks and the learning curve I have to take.

But I really appreciate you taking the time to appease my angst . Thank you

Justin


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

Thank you, appreciated

Justin


----------



## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

I a bit of a rambler on these forums but here is my beginners crash course:

Whilst you may think a 'third wave' coffee shop is nonense and you just want to serve 'normal coffee' Joe Public will notice. I recently took an instant coffee drinking friend of mine to Rave coffee shop and he was amazed and said he would go back if he was local.

Competition is awash and harsh, do the coffee right and people will come back.

Do your research, and when you think you have researched enough do more. Research both equipment and techniques. Youtube and here contain more information than you could ever get through.

Document your progress, keep notes on beans, extraction time and taste.

Grasp the basics first, learn distribution and tamping, get reliable extraction times and once you have these nailed the rest will begin to follow.

Buy a naked portafilter, this will show you where you are going wrong. I started a forum called OMG Shes a spurter and this documents my basic progress.

I found videoing it helped loads too.

I have a long way to go, but feel passionate about it and enjoy the process.

It will take time and can be a lot more specialiast than you imagine at first. And that is just making the coffee, before even starting the running of a business.

Try not to feel offended I think people can be defensive about our skill sets, you wouldn't open a car workshop without training, yet some of these guys have spent just as long honing their trade.


----------



## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

justin said:


> I am taking a massive risk for the benefit of my family . So no one more than me is aware of the risks and the learning curve I have to take.
> 
> But I really appreciate you taking the time to appease my angst . Thank you
> 
> Justin


Endure the pain! Reduce the risk.

It's worth it!


----------



## YerbaMate170 (Jun 15, 2015)

I can't comment on the cost aspect of opening a cafe, but have you considered working at a cafe for a while before? Not just to practise making coffee, but being in that environment will give you a huge insight into the every day runnings of a cafe, from making coffee, to serving customers, to running the shop, ordering supplies, cleaning, etc etc etc etc.......

For reference, many "good" cafes will not hire baristas with less than say, 3 years experience at top end cafes... This is for a reason. But of course as others have said it very much also depends on what sort of cafe you want - I am not saying this is you, but I walk past 4-5 cafes for example on my morning walk to the train station and I dread to think what the coffee tastes like. But they are always full. So... it depends


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

you want to provide for your family and give them a better living. You want to open a coffee establishment (good luck btw) but you do not want to face the facts. I might want to open a fancy restaurant, but there is more to it than meets the eye. others have said, if you just want a greasy spoon type place, use instant. With the high street chains and the independents there are on the high street you will soon be found out f you are lacking. My first point to you, was if you want to serve really good coffee and do not have the skill sets then employ someone who does. That point is valid. of course you could learn the skill sets but that will take time and you will need months working in another coffee shop.

There is real opposition out there and the last thing you will want to do is crash and burn. A proper business plan is needed to work out potential turnover. You need to identify the type of place you want. You need to sort out equipment. Do not make the mistake many do in being given free equipment in exchange for contracted into buying one priced poor quality beans. The bean is fundamental to the success of the shop aka you cannot make a silk purse from a sows ear.

Buy a decent home coffee machine and grinder and start to learn your craft.

Sorry if you think my style brusque, but it was being totally honest with you. if it makes you realise then there might be more to this than meets the eye, then good!


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I had a thought - why not start by setting up a mobile unit, far less outlay and commitment. And you could learn as you go, to an extent.

I am not being negative, and words typed don't always come across as they would if you were chatting face to face! Are you familiar with a HACCP plan, hygiene regs, food hygeine level 2 for catering, for your staff too etc.

There's a lot to think about! Start small and work your way up, would be my advice!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

For what it is worth, in my humble opinion, we are being trolled and wound up.....


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I think we were too nice, personally.


----------



## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

If it makes him think twice about jumping in head first then you've all done him a massive favour. He may not think that right now though.


----------



## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

MildredM said:


> I think we were too nice, personally.


I can't imagine you being not nice tbh


----------



## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

igm45 said:


> I can't imagine you being not nice tbh


I have my moments. In polite company I would go so far as to say 'blithering idiot'. But I wouldn't say it here.


----------



## justin (May 19, 2017)

dfk41 said:


> For what it is worth, in my humble opinion, we are being trolled and wound up.....


Hi all thank you all for your advice I really appreciate it.

Just took some stuff a bit to personally I suppose.

Again thank yo all and I will be having a look on the sale section for a grinder . Getting my speedos ready for the deep end ! Who dares wins Rodney !!

Ciao you coffee lunatics

Justin


----------

