# V60 regularly underwhelming brews



## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Hi all,

Been using my V60 a lot recently but have noticed that I'm getting a lot of brews (from a variety of beans/roasters) that are just a bit average. I'm wondering if my technique needs refining or if I've just gone through a stage of buying coffees that I haven't loved.

My go to method is as follows

Volvic just boiled

15g coffee: 250g water

Pour on 30g water, stir a fair bit (5 seocnds or so) then bloom until 30 seconds total time has passed

At 30 seconds add 75g water in spiral

At 1 min add 75g water in spiral

At 1:30 add last 70g water, wash down sides with last few grams

Gentle swirl and tap V60 on cup

95% of my brews are showing a dry bed in 2:30 - 2:50 seconds so I think grind is in the ballpark.

Using my feldgrind at 2+2-6 depending on beans - if I get a brew that goes over around 2:50 I'll go a touch coarser, unless it tastes good then I'll leave it

I find it hard to describe what I'm not enjoying about the brews. I've just made one with some Burundi beans that was quite astringent that was actually 18:300g and dry in 3 mins. Could it be over extraction causing the astringency?

I'm finding my coffees are all starting to taste a bit samey in the sense that they are all a bit average, maybe slightly bitter finish, not that sweet.

Any thoughts?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If the taste isn't good then something is amiss, grind or poring regime. Time seems a little on the quick side for me. @MWJB


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

95% of you brews being +/-10sec seems odd. For 2/3 of them, that would seem more normal.

Taste will decide if your grind is in the ballpark, rather than time - which on the whole look a bit short for the brew sizes you quote with a 30s bloom. At 2+6 on a Feldgrind with 6 pours my brews average just over 3min and they're a little smaller than yours.

Don't stir for 5 sec, just a couple of sec & it can just be a 'dig & wiggle' just to ensure that the bed is wet through.

Adjusting your grind by 4 marks also seems a bit odd.

Set your grind for the largest brew size you make (18:300?) then when making 15:250g brews add another pour or two to the regime, maybe with shorter intervals?

Maybe try the last pour/last 2 pours straight down the middle to avoid unnecessary agitation, swirl at the end of brew should be enough to settle the bed.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> If the taste isn't good then something is amiss, grind or poring regime. Time seems a little on the quick side for me. @MWJB


This is what I was thinking. I know the beans and water are good, granted I might not love them all but should be able to get something decent at least.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> 95% of you brews being +/-10sec seems odd. For 2/3 of them, that would seem more normal.
> 
> Taste will decide if your grind is in the ballpark, rather than time - which on the whole look a bit short for the brew sizes you quote with a 30s bloom. At 2+6 on a Feldgrind with 6 pours my brews average just over 3min and they're a little smaller than yours.
> 
> ...


Ok thanks Mark. So for the 18:300 brews I'm at 2+4 so if I understand right I should leave it at that for a 15:250 brew but do a couple more pours. So it would look like -

30g bloom for 30 seconds (dig & wiggle)

at 30 seconds add 55g - spiral

at 1 min add 55g - spiral

at 1:30 add 55g straight down the middle

at 2 mins add last 55g down the middle

swirl and tap

Does that look like a good starting point?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

If with the above I'm getting a dry bed before the next 30 seconds comes up does that matter? Presumably it does so would I go finer to slow it down?


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

Have you tried an immersion brew with the same water and beans? That might help narrow it down as to whether its the pour over technique or recipe.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Elcee said:


> Have you tried an immersion brew with the same water and beans? That might help narrow it down as to whether its the pour over technique or recipe.


No not yet. I have an aeropress and kalita 185 in my brewing arsenal so could try the AP


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Elcee said:


> Have you tried an immersion brew with the same water and beans? That might help narrow it down as to whether its the pour over technique or recipe.


No less variable than drip.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

MWJB said:


> No less variable than drip.


I meant in terms of user error. I was assuming that it is easier to do an immersion brew than a pour over so it provide a way of seeing the potential of the beans assuming it could be done well. However if an immersion brew is just as variable as drip then sure no point.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Ok thanks Mark. So for the 18:300 brews I'm at 2+4 so if I understand right I should leave it at that for a 15:250 brew but do a couple more pours. So it would look like -
> 
> 30g bloom for 30 seconds (dig & wiggle)
> 
> ...


I guess so, but I can't say whether 2+4, specifically, is the setting that will make that work.

If your flow rate after bloom is ~1.3g/sec, projected average brew time is coming out 3:15 to 3:20.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Elcee said:


> I meant in terms of user error. I was assuming that it is easier to do an immersion brew than a pour over so it provide a way of seeing the potential of the beans assuming it could be done well. However if an immersion brew is just as variable as drip then sure no point.


I honestly think that drip is easier to troubleshoot, because you have a relationship of grind setting vs flow rate. With immersion the brew time has no relationship to grind setting, you just stop it when you choose.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> If with the above I'm getting a dry bed before the next 30 seconds comes up does that matter? Presumably it does so would I go finer to slow it down?


I'd maybe expect to see this on the 1st pour, but after that I'd expect to have water above the bed for the rest of the brew time. Yes, looks like you need to go finer.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I guess so, but I can't say whether 2+4, specifically, is the setting that will make that work.
> 
> If your flow rate after bloom is ~1.3g/sec, projected average brew time is coming out 3:15 to 3:20.


Sure, sorry I meant the method rather than the grind as I know that isn't comparable to your feld or others. I'll give it a go and report back, as luck would have it I'm due a coffee about now


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

If the beverage is tasting dull, you're probably underextracting. Try going finer? Even if you're "overextracting" you should be able to taste some sweetness but it will be more astringent. Stick to one method and dose (i.e. Mark's or similar, and something like 13.5g-15g to start with) which you can be 100% consistent with. Adjust the grind and also the amount of water - you can also try slightly longer brews, I find these work better in V60, i.e. 55g/L.

I like to do two pours since I find it easier to be consistent and it's easier to remember. 13.5g coffee, 30-40g bloom and stir, fill upto 150g, do a swirl to clean the sides, at 1:30 fill up to 240 and do another swirl (usually not necessary though). Expect flat bed around 3:30.


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Used above method, grinder was actually set at 2+2 so I just left it as it was. Dry bed at 3:05. Drink is definitely better than the one I made before. Think I could risk a touch finer perhaps go to 2 on the feldgrind and see if that tastes better?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

GingerBen said:


> Used above method, grinder was actually set at 2+2 so I just left it as it was. Dry bed at 3:05. Drink is definitely better than the one I made before. Think I could risk a touch finer perhaps go to 2 on the feldgrind and see if that tastes better?


Sure, give it a go.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

MWJB said:


> I honestly think that drip is easier to troubleshoot, because you have a relationship of grind setting vs flow rate. With immersion the brew time has no relationship to grind setting, you just stop it when you choose.


What so you think is the easiest brew method to use to try to get the best result? I suggested immersion because those methods are like cupping which is used to evaluate beans and so it could be a way to understand the potential of the beans to know what one can work towards with other methods.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Elcee said:


> What so you think is the easiest brew method to use to try to get the best result? I suggested immersion because those methods are like cupping which is used to evaluate beans and so it could be a way to understand the potential of the beans to know what one can work towards with other methods.


I don't think any method is particularly easier than the other, if done consistently. Ultimately, they all rely on weights, ratio, grind size & time (within a normal range for that method/brewer, but time alone can be the largest variable even when all the other aspects are fixed).

"Cupping" is a name given to a simple & practical way to evaluate lots of samples together...there are protocols around, but aspects are usually ignored & folk largely do what they want...which is fine. But if you do what you do consistently, you'll hit a consistent range of extraction. If someone else likes to cup with a very coarse grind, cooler water, uncovered, then they'll consistently hit a lower range of extraction. Not saying either is wrong or right, courses for horses.

But if we're calibrating a V60 (or any other drip cone we all have access to) brew, both using similar grinders, similar dose weight, known water right off the boil & a known bloom/brew time, it gets a lot easier to arrive at a comparable result. If your brews are 13-15g dose @ ~60g/L and end at 2:30 average they're going to generally be a lower extraction that those that end at 3:30 average (same grind consistency). The grind size & brew time give us an insight to level of extraction that isn't so clear with an immersion.

Coarse immersions might span 4% extraction, fine immersions might span 4% too, but overlap by 2%, so unless we calibrate grind that's a 6% span & useless, but no obvious change in brew time.

Plus it's easier to overextract drip compared to cupping, so it's difficult to explore the upper limits there.

217 of my drip brews averaging 3:00 13.5 to 225g have more than 95% within 4% EY span. They don't all taste the same, they didn't all taste great (you can't fix poor coffee with brewing), but generally they are good and I can be pretty confident we're not talking about brews on the outer fringes of normal, or brewed to a narrow preference.

It's not so much about getting the "best" result (subjective - I can't taste another poster's coffee), more about taking the tangible information (objective) you have at hand & using it to get close to a ball-park, known result without having to be there in person.

If I had to taste several coffees in a short period of time, I'd cup them too (boiling water, fine grind, covered, 20min steep).


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## IggyK (May 13, 2017)

What's the tasting notes of the Burundi beans?


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

IggyK said:


> What's the tasting notes of the Burundi beans?


grapefruit and honeydew melon iirc


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Great improvement in brews with this new method and longer brew time. Thanks @MWJB and others for advice. I think I was guilty of getting a bit complacent with my technique before and rushing it a bit. Changing the method has made me concentrate more and take my time and hence produce better coffee. Winner.









This was done in 3:20 at a 15:250g ratio and is bang on the notes and delicious. It's a coffee I had previously thought wasn't great. Turns out it was me, who'd have thought lol


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## Wingc (Aug 23, 2019)

Many thanks for this. ?


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## mark8805 (Oct 17, 2014)

GingerBen said:


> Hi all,
> 
> Been using my V60 a lot recently but have noticed that I'm getting a lot of brews (from a variety of beans/roasters) that are just a bit average. I'm wondering if my technique needs refining or if I've just gone through a stage of buying coffees that I haven't loved.
> 
> ...


 My go to rule is if it doesn't produce in the V60 I then try the Clever Dripper and also Kalita Wave, the KW is my favourite and I brew 17g of coffee to 200g of water, I like to get a good punch when I am drinking it, each to there own.


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## garethuk (May 2, 2019)

GingerBen said:


> Ok thanks Mark. So for the 18:300 brews I'm at 2+4 so if I understand right I should leave it at that for a 15:250 brew but do a couple more pours. So it would look like -
> 
> 30g bloom for 30 seconds (dig & wiggle)
> 
> ...


 Just tried this brew regime myself and was very nice indeed! Felt like I was getting lots of subtle fruit flavours. Thanks Mark!


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## Breezy (Dec 16, 2014)

Think I having a similar issue I have been using the feld2 at around 2 + 2-11 with the 4:6 method but getting long extracting brews at around 4:30-5mins

will try this new method you have mentioned


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