# Darkroom timer to set 30 secs or what?



## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

What's an easy to set timer for say 30 seconds? Don't want to press a 'second' button 30 times - 10 second intervals would be easier. I have that on my microwave, which is quick to set and what I'm using right now. But surely there's some easy-to-set gadget, e.g. where you could programme in a set time and then just press a button to activate?

Also considering a darkroom timer where you manually turn the dial - like those old clockwork Smiths ones.

What's a good idea here?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I tend to use my phone timer these days (or Apple Watch).


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Kitchen timers do that.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Why do you want to know what 30 seconds is .

Make a shot by hitting a weight out , note time but dint stip a shot at 30 seconds every time?

Hitting a brew ratio is more important than hitting a time , tasty shots can occur anywhere between 20 - 50 seconds , so what' so important about 30 seconds?

What makes coffee tasty is the relationship between the amount of coffee used and the amount of coffee it makes ( weight in and weight out )


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

PPapa said:


> Kitchen timers do that.


Do what? Allow you to programme in a time of say 30 secs and just push a button? I don't want to push a button 30 times every time I use it.

I appreciate different methods of pulling a shot, like measuring the ml. in the cup, and I may do that as well. Just got a Gaggia Classic on eBay and have never used an unpressurised basket, so just getting prepared while waiting for it. My Dualit 75002 grinder may need to be upgraded, but I can try and mod it first to grind finer.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

les24preludes said:


> Do what? Allow you to programme in a time of say 30 secs and just push a button? I don't want to push a button 30 times every time I use it.
> 
> I appreciate different methods of pulling a shot, like measuring the ml. in the cup, and I may do that as well. Just got a Gaggia Classic on eBay and have never used an unpressurised basket, so just getting prepared while waiting for it. My Dualit 75002 grinder may need to be upgraded, but I can try and mod it first to grind finer.


So just out of interest what method do you intend to use to dial in and get tasty shots. I wasn't referring to using ml to measure .


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Completely scrap that 30 second idea that will save you having to do anything to count it. Look and taste it, that's all, at least until you upgrade your grinder as you will probably need to overdose it and use pretty dark oily beans to compensate for a coarser grind.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I didn't realise you meat as a shot timer. As an all purpose (cooking etc) timer then a phone/watch is a good option!


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

I use the stopwatch on my phone to guage how long the shot takes but stop it at the desired ratio I'm aiming for.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> So just out of interest what method do you intend to use to dial in and get tasty shots. I wasn't referring to using ml to measure .


I don't have an "intention" at this point - just getting ready and doing research, and you guys are very helpful as usual with different ideas.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

[No message]


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> Well, I'd still like to find a handy times in seconds. A darkroom interval timer seems to do that, though a lot of them are minutes.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You can buy coffee scales that include timer. I also think there are phone applications about. Personally I concentrate on taste. Time and ratio varies. From time to time I find something new to do that improves things even though the shot time on my machine will usually be set at 25 secs and wont be changed. If I want to try various times I increase the time and do a manual shot. I use a nearby clock with a second hand to check what the time is and also to set it. That's close enough. I suppose some one could use a racing lap timer and work to msec but the wall clock is good enough for me.

My 25secs as in some other Sage machines includes 10 secs of pre infusion. I've found the best thing to see during that considering several factors is slight increase in brew pressure before flow starts followed by more increase in pressure before the pump starts running flat out. The numbers I use to get this are of no use at all for people using another type of machine as they will brew differently. That to illustrate why things like ratio of x:x and pour time of x secs can't really be considered as cast in stone even before the bean variety is considered.

John

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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

ajohn said:


> You can buy coffee scales that include timer. I also think there are phone applications about. Personally I concentrate on taste. Time and ratio varies. From time to time I find something new to do that improves things even though the shot time on my machine will usually be set at 25 secs and wont be changed. If I want to try various times I increase the time and do a manual shot. I use a nearby clock with a second hand to check what the time is and also to set it. That's close enough. I suppose some one could use a racing lap timer and work to msec but the wall clock is good enough for me.
> 
> My 25secs as in some other Sage machines includes 10 secs of pre infusion. I've found the best thing to see during that considering several factors is slight increase in brew pressure before flow starts followed by more increase in pressure before the pump starts running flat out. The numbers I use to get this are of no use at all for people using another type of machine as they will brew differently. That to illustrate why things like ratio of x:x and pour time of x secs can't really be considered as cast in stone even before the bean variety is considered.
> 
> ...


Yep, pre-infusion on some machines & not on others is one of the things that throw timing out the window. With constant tamp pressure, the time can come in handy for adjusting the grind once I've found a ratio that works well for the respective bean.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I use a nearby clock with a second hand to check what the time is and also to set it. That's close enough. I suppose some one could use a racing lap timer and work to msec but the wall clock is good enough for me.
> 
> John
> 
> -


Seconds are plenty good enough, as a consistent level of extraction can be +/- 6sec. Brewing to the same time will be less consistent.

Here's an example


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Seconds are plenty good enough, as a consistent level of extraction can be +/- 6sec. Brewing to the same time will be less consistent.
> 
> Here's an example


That's pointless really for many styles of drinks as all that matters is taste. Like a lot of pseudo science essentially irrelevant.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> That's pointless really for many styles of drinks as all that matters is taste. Like a lot of pseudo science essentially irrelevant.
> 
> John
> 
> -


It's objective measurement.

If you want to make another style of drink (not sure what the relevance of this is), do so, but you won't make it consistently sticking rigidly to time & ignoring weight of dose & weight of beverage, because beverage weight will drift at the same shot time.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

ajohn said:


> That's pointless really for many styles of drinks as all that matters is taste. Like a lot of pseudo science essentially irrelevant.
> 
> John
> 
> -


When you are drinking the drink , the aim is to enjoy it , and that enjoyment comes from the taste of the drink..

Having a process and Measuring the variables does not preclude anyone who is tasting it, from enjoying it.

There is this oddity than keeps getting thrown up that taste is king , but using numbers to make a drink negates taste, i just don't get it.

It's like there is a pride in guessing how to make an espresso or using the force or something, that only coffee made the pure unadulterated way without scales or method can deliver nirvana .

I can get to birmingham without turning left, its the only way to get there , trust me . Turning right just ruins the journey.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> It's like there is a pride in guessing how to make an espresso or using the force or something, that only coffee made the pure unadulterated way without scales or method can deliver nirvana .


Indeed, like espresso should be made solely by sight & man's natural senses. Sight, man's natural senses ...and several hundred pounds worth of mechanical & electrical engineering all built to known tolerance & when you get those tolerances right, the machines produce espresso - the most mechanised & technology reliant brew method.

Here's another similar example,worth a read...

http://www.lamarzoccousa.com/blog/ben-kaminsky-barista-vs-volumetrics/

In my own brewing, by any method, if you control the weights of the coffee & water used, at an appropriate grind & temp, your relative variation in time can be 2-5 times larger than the variation in extraction.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I've not seen anyone question the fact that weighing and timing can make the results more consistent, that's obvious, people question whether the faff is worth it if you already know what your doing or you have a £50 Grinder that will result in you thinking you have it nailed one day to throw everything you thought you knew up in the air the next, you have to learn to make cheaper equipment work well, and it can but the same principles don't apply


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

KTD said:


> I've not seen anyone question the fact that weighing and timing can make the results more consistent, that's obvious, people question whether the faff is worth it if you already know what your doing or you have a £50 Grinder that will result in you thinking you have it nailed one day to throw everything you thought you knew up in the air the next, you have to learn to make cheaper equipment work well, and it can but the same principles don't apply


Coffee still costs the same , taste buds still appreciate a great drink, and once you have a method it really isnt a case of adding in yes amounts of time .

If no faffing is the objective then there is always lots of other easier ways to make coffee ( pods, instant etc )

In the end espresso is coffee and water relationship ( yes grind , yes temp ) but , why the amount of money spent on equipment should fundamentally change that relationship I am to sure.

Tasty coffee can be made with a hario and some filters , but only if you know the relationship between coffee and water being used.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Whenever anyone questions weighing and timing my mind turns to cakes and baking. Here's a lovely cake recipe . . . Throw a few spoon fulls of flour and sugar in your bowl, add a few eggs and a slice of butter, mix and bake. Need I say more.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Ok I'll get back to drinking instant because I'm not willing to advise somebody to setup a science lab before investing in a suitable espresso grinder  Fix the biggest variable in order of importance, or just use the force like the rest of us.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

KTD said:


> Ok I'll get back to drinking instant because I'm not willing to advise somebody to setup a science lab before investing in a suitable espresso grinder  Fix the biggest variable in order of importance, or just use the force like the rest of us.


It's quite possible to make a good coffee by eye. All weight & time does is aid in repeating that shot once you have a recipe you're happy with.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

KTD said:


> I've not seen anyone question the fact that weighing and timing can make the results more consistent, that's obvious, people question whether the faff is worth


I don't find it a faff, I can't stand faff personally, but this is something that takes a second - that's not faffing.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I'm not questioning it when you have a setup that works I'm saying it's an unnecessary faff when the setup won't provide consistent results anyway!


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

We have a great Android phone timer app, we mainly use it for eggs, it very easy to use with a rolling numeric count down display, we have it simply set up with a selective list of times relative to times for lightly boiled eggs, to well done boiled eggs 'Dippy Centers' we have that labelled.

It's brilliantly simple and adaptable for any application that needs timers, as for making coffee it would be ideal setting it for differing times until you find the ideal.

Jon.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

KTD said:


> I'm not questioning it when you have a setup that works I'm saying it's an unnecessary faff when the setup won't provide consistent results anyway!


Ok , ig you have an inconsistent set up , surely controlling what you can actually control will help?

Otherwise why not just do this ?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

xpresso said:


> We have a great Android phone timer app, we mainly use it for eggs, it very easy to use with a rolling numeric count down display, we have it simply set up with a selective list of times relative to times for lightly boiled eggs, to well done boiled eggs 'Dippy Centers' we have that labelled.
> 
> It's brilliantly simple and adaptable for any application that needs timers, as for making coffee it would be ideal setting it for differing times until you find the ideal.
> 
> Jon.


You are better stopping a shot by weight , than time, use a timer to note the time, not to stop a shot by...


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok , ig you have an inconsistent set up , surely controlling what you can actually control will help?


Maybe we could adapt that Niebuhr quote:

Give me the strength to controls the things I can control, courage to try the the things I can try, and the wisdom to know the difference between weight, volume and time.



> Otherwise why not just do this ?


Hehe!


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> You are better stopping a shot by weight , than time, use a timer to note the time, not to stop a shot by...


My response was to offer a perfect timer for any application, in our instance we use it for consistency boiling egg's that suits us, as the OP's was wanting to use it for his coffee making methods it would be ideal.

Jon.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> I don't find it a faff, I can't stand faff personally, but this is something that takes a second - that's not faffing.


Personally I wouldn't touch and expresso machine without a shot timer with a barge pole. I have 2 machines and one hasn't got one which has really enforced that feeling. I may well take that one apart and add one if I keep it. It was bought out of curiosity though with no real intention to keep.

It all comes down to making best use of what some one has. In weight can be controlled by a grinder timer, checking and adjusting, spooning a certain weight in or weighing beans into the grinder. A grinder timer setting will need checking - how often? Find out. Spooning grinds into a basket could give the same weight all of the time. Weighing beans in may need an (







)air compressor to blow remaining grinds out. A 1HP one should do it. On the other hand if the grinder is used often enough and the retention is always the same why bother.

The main aim of it all is that the taste remains the same as far as the person drinking it is concerned. Really if things such as the beans themselves could be controlled well enough the same weight of grounds will always give the same weight or ml of output during a timed shot. Or maybe the pump functioned a little differently. Really for the beans that actually were ground and used there is no way of knowing which is better -terminating the shot on weight or just time. All we have to go on really is taste. It's too easy to throw in all sorts to argue that people must do this or that. TDS is one I have found interesting - is oil a solid. It's certainly an important aspect. Can TDS meters of any sort really be fully meaningful. Something that could really analyse what came out would be extremely expensive.

One thing I have noticed is that commercial machines generally have a rotary pump and a flow meter. Maybe the latter is what an espresso drinker needs to get their 30 or 60ml shots but as I mentioned if they have tuned for them something some where must have changed if they alter. Some people drink blends - how can they be sure that the exact correct mix of beans has been ground. They can't be.

John

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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Espresso can only ever be 30ml or 60ML?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> The main aim of it all is that the taste remains the same as far as the person drinking it is concerned.


No one disagrees with this. But you taste the final product, after you have carried out the processes to produce it. You don't taste the roasted whole bean to decide whether or not to brew, you don't lick the portafilter to see how much dose weight to use, you don't dip your tongue into the grounds to check the grind size. You don't swallow a timer to record shot time. You don't use taste to make a shot. You use taste to evaluate the result of repeatable & predictable processes, carried out on machinery.

Did you make your pressure gauge adaptor by taste, or by building to known & conveyable datums?



ajohn said:


> Really for the beans that actually were ground and used there is no way of knowing which is better -terminating the shot on weight or just time.


Better, tastier, preferred - no we can't predict that (you have to take responsibility for that at the bean ordering stage), but we can objectively measure brew efficiency & objective consistency.



ajohn said:


> It's too easy to throw in all sorts to argue that people must do this or that.


We all give advice in a spirit of cooperation, we also use our experience to come to that advice. All advice, from any source is suggesting that someone follow it. If people shouldn't be offered advice as how they might achieve an objective, then there would be no advice. Advice that has no useful datum, is not advice at all. You give advice, are you saying people should not follow it?



ajohn said:


> TDS is one I have found interesting - is oil a solid. It's certainly an important aspect. Can TDS meters of any sort really be fully meaningful. Something that could really analyse what came out would be extremely expensive.


Why are we talking about oil? The oil in coffee is unavoidable but not particularly pleasant to taste, nor counted towards Total Dissolved Solids (you recently said you had checked the water supply where you live, in which components are measured in tens of parts per million - if this is meaningful, why wouldn't dissolved coffee in tens of thousands of parts per million be meaningful for actually making coffee?). TDS is the measure of the beverage concentration. From this, knowing the dose weight & the beverage weight, we can determine how much of the dose is dissolved in the drink & how consistently & closely we can repeat this. Dehydration (very expensive), or a coffee refractometer (quite expensive) are used, not a conductive TDS meter (cheap, but useless). If you are talking about some kind of mass spec (most expensive) then that wouldn't be portable from one bean to the next as the different flavour compounds would change (the objective isn't to make any coffee taste like hazlenuts for example, nor change the origin character), you would still need to cross reference against extraction, or establish a new datum.



ajohn said:


> Some people drink blends - how can they be sure that the exact correct mix of beans has been ground. They can't be..


In a blend, which of the beans is the one that is disgusting? Which is the one that is deadly toxic? Which is the one you are desperate to avoid? None. So don't lose sleep over it. If a component isn't to your liking, don't buy the blend. Blends are used for consistency. Let's say each bean weighs 0.16g. So 100 beans in a 16g dose ...really what are the odds of you only getting one/none component in the cup?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Science and coffee just don't mix.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

MWJB said:


> You don't use taste to make a shot. You use taste to evaluate the result of repeatable & predictable processes, carried out on machinery.


I like your thinking. I work with data, and I also build amplifiers as a hobby. I love machinery and I love data, and I don't see how either stop you being a fully sensing and emotional human being. We laugh at engineers jokes, but engineering has built our modern society.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

MildredM said:


> Whenever anyone questions weighing and timing my mind turns to cakes and baking. Here's a lovely cake recipe . . . Throw a few spoon fulls of flour and sugar in your bowl, add a few eggs and a slice of butter, mix and bake. Need I say more.


Ah MildredM. Glorious barista, terrible baker... (By all means get her to grind for you, but I suggest nobody nibbles her buns)

The recipe was solid, except you should have mentioned you need to use a digital stopwatch which has been calibrated to GMT and a quartz hourglass... So you can bake your cake until it reaches a tasty point.


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Missy said:


> Ah MildredM. Glorious barista, terrible baker... (By all means get her to grind for you, but I suggest nobody nibbles her buns)
> 
> The recipe was solid, except you should have mentioned you need to use a digital stopwatch which has been calibrated to GMT and a quartz hourglass... So you can bake your cake until it reaches a tasty point.


how many packets in a slice of butter? Do i melt said slice and remove separated solids (NDS)?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

i actually develop my own film at home , i dint use a timer though , i just measure time by the shadows on the wall though .


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> i actually develop my own film at home , i dint use a timer though , i just measure time by the shadows on the wall though .


doesnt everyone? mmmmm rodinal


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

John

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

craigsalisbury said:


> how many packets in a slice of butter? Do i melt said slice and remove separated solids (NDS)?


You are missing the point. Just bake it. Until it tastes good for you... Some weirdos suggest measuring the slices per packet... But if you are going down that route you may as well set up a science lab... It's an art and you'll know by taste when you've got it right.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Missy said:


> You are missing the point. Just bake it. Until it tastes good for you... Some weirdos suggest measuring the slices per packet... But if you are going down that route you may as well set up a science lab... It's an art and you'll know by taste when you've got it right.


Taste is king

the sky is blue

my coffee is black

and tastes like poo .....


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Missy said:


> You are missing the point. Just bake it. Until it tastes good for you... Some weirdos suggest measuring the slices per packet... But if you are going down that route you may as well set up a science lab... It's an art and you'll know by taste when you've got it right.


point taken, throw all the things in the mixer, then put the mixer in the oven until yummy cake appears. will try this evening.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

craigsalisbury said:


> doesnt everyone? mmmmm rodinal


Colour film its more psychedelic ...... mmmm blix , nothing like a blix high .


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> Colour film its more psychedelic ...... mmmm blix , nothing like a blix high .


thought about a kit for that but it seems like a PITA, however if you want to do my 120....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

les24preludes said:


> I like your thinking. I work with data, and I also build amplifiers as a hobby. I love machinery and I love data, and I don't see how either stop you being a fully sensing and emotional human being. We laugh at engineers jokes, but engineering has built our modern society.


I build amps too, to me, making coffee isn't that different to ensuring a B+/C- is supplying the right voltages & working right. What you like, your taste, that's up to you, within the context of working right...or even within working wrong in a repeatable & predictable manner.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Wow the coffee forums mafia are out in force. Amazing how one thread can change my perception of this forum, for how brilliantly helpful people have been some of the comments above have a total disregard of others views.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I'm about ready to do something involving a severed coffee machine and a duvet


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

MildredM said:


> I'm about ready to do something involving a severed coffee machine and a duvet


Im not sure you are supposed to pre warn of such deeds?


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

MildredM said:


> I'm about ready to do something involving a severed coffee machine and a duvet


Awwww I'm sorry I was mean about your caking. Please don't hurt me.(but please don't make me nibble your buns... Unless you think we could host a charity night based on it?)


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

Missy said:


> Awwww I'm sorry I was mean about your caking. Please don't hurt me.(but please don't make me nibble your buns... Unless you think we could host a charity night based on it?)


I do believe there was a recent charity night involving buns, and it made the news and all of the papers. is that what we are stooping to?


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

Missy said:


> Awwww I'm sorry I was mean about your caking. Please don't hurt me.(but please don't make me nibble your buns... Unless you think we could host a charity night based on it?)


Hahaha!! If you think we could raise a few ££££s I'm up for it!!!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

KTD said:


> Wow the coffee forums mafia are out in force. Amazing how one thread can change my perception of this forum, for how brilliantly helpful people have been some of the comments above have a total disregard of others views.


I'm sorry you feel that way- I don't think there's a mafia here (but then I suspect you suspect I'm part of it!)

I think what there is, is a wealth of knowledge here, gained through time and experience, with the repositories of that knowledge willingly sharing it repeatedly and generously, allowing those of us newer to the art of coffee to learn. Those people get incredibly frustrated when people with very limited knowledge come along and declare they know better, despite repeated willingness to explain in detail the whys and wherefores of accepted and successful methods.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

KTD said:


> Wow the coffee forums mafia are out in force. Amazing how one thread can change my perception of this forum, for how brilliantly helpful people have been some of the comments above have a total disregard of others views.


I'm inclined to agree with you, feel like I've walked into the wrong room either the coffee's bitter OR .........

Jon.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Just so We are clear , would you like to say who you are reffering to?


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Not interested in going back and pointing out when you've shown an air of arrogance to various people, you can do that by reading back yourself if you're remotely interested


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

KTD said:


> Not interested in going back and pointing out when you've shown an air of arrogance to various people, you can do that by reading back yourself if you're remotely interested


It was not my intention to offend in such a way, I thought i was offering questions and views on my experience of being on here and seeing alot of patterns develop in people trying to make espresso, getting frustrated and giving up.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I could be wrong but I'd hazard a guess that there are some very experienced users on here who haven't weighed out or timed a shot for a very long time


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

KTD said:


> I could be wrong but I'd hazard a guess that there are some very experienced users on here who haven't weighed out or timed a shot for a very long time


Make coffee the way you want. Honestly please do.

But Trying to help people , it's easier with a common language , I see more people struggle to get the espresso they want , than profess not having to weigh etc.

It's about a language, a way to communicate , to help people. In my own cack handed way , that's what i try and do. Help

If you don't need to or want to weigh that's fine. For those that come here wanting some help to get to tasty, i still think its the best and easiest way to get there.


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

KTD said:


> I could be wrong but I'd hazard a guess that there are some very experienced users on here who haven't weighed out or timed a shot for a very long time


And the best coffee shops, making coffee Day in day out *do* weigh in and out, because it allows for consistency across shots, a repeatable process that is accurate and shareable.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Good and I'm glad your intention was to help people, I can see you all offer some great advice but there was a period when you were mocking people who may or may not have picked up on it and I won't read it and ignore it whether you have 1 post or 10000


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

KTD said:


> Good and I'm glad your intention was to help people, I can see you all offer some great advice but there was a period when you were mocking people who may or may not have picked up on it and I won't read it and ignore it whether you have 1 post or 10000


One man's humour is another man's mocking.

We can disagree if I am funny or not , or if my attempts at humour are misplaced or how to make espresso.

If you find a better method to help people communicate and help make espresso I will be all ears. Again I am being genuine not mocking.

If me mentioning weighing in and weighing out annoys you , then you can always put me on ignore coz that's pretty much my mantra.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I love these things Tru dat,haha


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

KTD said:


> Good and I'm glad your intention was to help people, I can see you all offer some great advice but there was a period when you were mocking people who may or may not have picked up on it and I won't read it and ignore it whether you have 1 post or 10000


That might just be the most arrogant & condescending post on this whole thread. I shall think hard before posting sage advice re: weighing in & out to achieve consistancy in the future. Maybe guesswork & praying to the coffee gods is the way forward after all. ***mock mode off***


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

ashcroc said:


> That might just be the most arrogant & condescending post on this whole thread. I shall think hard before posting sage advice re: weighing in & out to achieve consistancy in the future. Maybe guesswork & praying to the coffee gods is the way forward after all. ***mock mode off***


Did you even read the thread? I haven't suggested weighing in and out isn't a good idea, you could read all of my posts your comments are completely misguided. op has a dualit grinder that won't grind fine enough for any help to work so I simply suggested that for now at least there is no reason to bother timing the shot which would save any hassle with the microwave etc, others also made comments after which there were multiple posts with back handed digs even using the same wording as people's posts.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

KTD said:


> Did you even read the thread? I haven't suggested weighing in and out isn't a good idea, you could read all of my posts your comments are completely misguided. op has a dualit grinder that won't grind fine enough for any help to work so I simply suggested that for now at least there is no reason to bother timing the shot which would save any hassle with the microwave etc, others also made comments after which there were multiple posts with back handed digs even using the same wording as people's posts.


I not only read the thread I have also contributed to it early on (ironically advising to weigh in & out without worrying too much on timing!).

You cannot attack unnamed people in a thread & not assume *everybody* who has posted before your arrogant & condescending posts will take offence from them.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

Ok I originally posted in defence of others as I felt unfair comments were being made there was nothing arrogant or condescending, It's clear none of you agree so I'll leave it there.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

KTD said:


> Ok I originally posted in defence of others as I felt unfair comments were being made there was nothing arrogant or condescending, It's clear none of you agree so I'll leave it there.


People try to help on here, genuinely.

Lets keep some perspective. We are on a coffee forum, talking about how to make coffee. Certainly not worth getting upset or offended over.

This video by one of the industries best helps explain the benefits of weigh in/out and how in turn you can fine tune and get the best product possible from the beans we buy.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

As said multiple times I agree that weighing in and out is the best technique but I was judging my comments on the fact that the op was using a dualit grinder and his microwave to judge shot times of exactly 30 seconds, and he was finding it frustrating, my suggestion was that they should wait until he could upgrade the grinder as the variables are enhanced to a point where time will play very little part when being forced to use a coarser grind and any lessons learnt would inevitably need to be learnt all over again once said grinder was upgraded, people having different opinions doesnt bother me in the slightest and im aware that many of you are much more knowledgable than myself or others who have commented


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

why is this even carrying on?

Everyone on this forum is an adult, capable of choice, to listen, to ignore, to follow advice or not to. If someone is offended, then they can say so and ask for an apology or explanation if needed. I don't think we need social justice warriors being offended for other adults that haven't stated that certain remarks hurt them or they need to go to their safe place.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

I was just replying to comments, didnt want to ignore them


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

KTD said:


> op has a dualit grinder that won't grind fine enough for any help to work so I simply suggested that for now at least there is no reason to bother timing the shot which would save any hassle with the microwave etc,


Ah! But OP has now bought a Mazzer Mini and collecting it this weekend, plus collecting a Gaggia Classic tomorrow. So all the mad dogs will be let loose in the kitchen - timers, weighing machines, Zen Buddism, Freudian Psychoanalysis, Euclidian geometry, necromancy......

OP actively appreciates a sick sense of humour, and has no problem with arrogance.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> Ah! But OP has now bought a Mazzer Mini and collecting it this weekend, plus collecting a Gaggia Classic tomorrow. So all the mad dogs will be let loose in the kitchen - timers, weighing machines, Zen Buddism, Freudian Psychoanalysis, Euclidian geometry, necromancy......
> 
> OP actively appreciates a sick sense of humour, and has no problem with arrogance.


Lol congrats nice setup


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> Ah! But OP has now bought a Mazzer Mini and collecting it this weekend, plus collecting a Gaggia Classic tomorrow. So all the mad dogs will be let loose in the kitchen - timers, weighing machines, Zen Buddism, Freudian Psychoanalysis, Euclidian geometry, necromancy......
> 
> OP actively appreciates a sick sense of humour, and has no problem with arrogance.


Good work!

Dont forget, you can only weigh beans correctly if you stand on one leg, the left leg to be precise.


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> Ah! But OP has now bought a Mazzer Mini and collecting it this weekend, plus collecting a Gaggia Classic tomorrow. So all the mad dogs will be let loose in the kitchen - timers, weighing machines, Zen Buddism, Freudian Psychoanalysis, Euclidian geometry, necromancy......
> 
> OP actively appreciates a sick sense of humour, and has no problem with arrogance.


Whooo! Congratulations on your new set up


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> Good work!
> 
> Dont forget, you can only weigh beans correctly if you stand on one leg, the left leg to be precise.


It wouldn't surprise me, it really wouldn't


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

craigsalisbury said:


> Good work!
> 
> Dont forget, you can only weigh beans correctly if you stand on one leg, the left leg to be precise.


I didn't know you were a jambegauchist.... Are you politically active, or only in the Spring and Summer months?


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## craigsalisbury (Dec 8, 2017)

les24preludes said:


> I didn't know you were a jambegauchist.... Are you politically active, or only in the Spring and Summer months?


Oh i didnt even think about that, but considering my anti-snowflake, anti-SJW stance, i am firmly planted on the right leg...manning up


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Well, guys. I am now drinking my first unpressurised cup of coffee out of my new Gaggia Classic. This is after 2 hours cleaning and descaling the thing. Freeing up all the tiny holes in the group head disc was the hardest part - I had to resort to a stiff brush and some Jif. Probably not standard practice, but my citric acid solution didn't make much impression on it.

So is the taste any better? Yes it is, quite clearly. Not too much crema and I think it's flowing a bit faster than it should but all is well. Saturday I get the Mazzer Mini - another well-used machine. I've ordered new burrs, and when the grind is fine enough I can start on the art of pulling a good cup. That's going to be interesting, as this thread is already telling me!! Thanks for all the posts and the healthy debate.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

les24preludes said:


> Well, guys. I am now drinking my first unpressurised cup of coffee out of my new Gaggia Classic. This is after 2 hours cleaning and descaling the thing. Freeing up all the tiny holes in the group head disc was the hardest part - I had to resort to a stiff brush and some Jif. Probably not standard practice, but my citric acid solution didn't make much impression on it.
> 
> So is the taste any better? Yes it is, quite clearly. Not too much crema and I think it's flowing a bit faster than it should but all is well. Saturday I get the Mazzer Mini - another well-used machine. I've ordered new burrs, and when the grind is fine enough I can start on the art of pulling a good cup. That's going to be interesting, as this thread is already telling me!! Thanks for all the posts and the healthy debate.


And not a hint of a timer mentioned, the two hours descaling is open ended.

Enjoy the reinstated flavour, I suppose a change in the machine and flavour characteristics creep up on you with the passage of time.

Jon.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

xpresso said:


> And not a hint of a timer mentioned, the two hours descaling is open ended.


The timing is way off since the grind isn't fine enough - more on that to come when I get the Mazzer Mini. When I use the word "descaling" I'm being generous, though I did that too. Mostly it was hacking and scraping congealed coffee oil from all parts of the group head and portafilter. Hadn't been used for a year.

I don't have a tamper yet. Shall I buy a 58.4mm tamper for the standard Gaggia double basket? Does it fit? Seems to measure 58.4mm ID so would be tight. But gets me ready for the VST 18g.


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

58.4mm will fit standard Gaggia basket, hopefully the previous owner hadn't changed them


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## KTD (Dec 28, 2017)

You'll notice a massive difference once you get your grinder


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## Jim bean (Aug 16, 2014)

its a bit fancy pants Oled display, pre-infusion timer, shot timer, temperature display

https://www.kaffee-netz.de/threads/vorstellung-projekt-espresso-shot-timer-mit-temperaturanzeige.85390/page-14#post-1401771

[video=youtube;ZnbcIE7-t9A]






coming to a fracino heavenly soon lol


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

For coffee oil you need something like pulycaff (espresso machine cleaner... I think the one I have is called Puro) it comes usually in a big plastic tub, if you've got a homebrew shop near by hubby buys the same stuff but pitched as homebrew cleaner and tea/coffee stain remover. it's white powder and you back flush with half a TSP and soak all the removable bits in a bath of it.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Missy said:


> For coffee oil you need something like pulycaff (espresso machine cleaner... I think the one I have is called Puro)
> 
> 
> > I have some which I'm waiting for - courier problems. Good to know that works.


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Update: I now see that timing - which I will do at some point - isn't so important. It's all going by volume, weight and taste. I'm at last getting a decent shot with my new Motta 58.4mm tamper and the standard Gaggia double basket. Right now 220ml cup with 125ml milk heated in microwave, then pull a 14-15g shot so it fills the cup, so approx 70-80ml coffee out. Much better taste than my previous DeLonghi EC155 pressurised. Off to get a Mazzer Mini today so should then have all the equipment. Coffee is going up steadily in taste - quite a revelation since I was drinking instant in 2017 and Nespresso in January. February is a new dawn! Plenty of work to do now to play with proportions and improve the taste further, and a finer grind should also change everything.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

When the mazzer mini comes, give weighing the output a go as well, it will can lead to such improvements in consistency . Plus it will make dialling in your new grinder a little less painful .

Glad your enjoying your coffee .


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## les24preludes (Dec 30, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> When the mazzer mini comes, give weighing the output a go as well, it will can lead to such improvements in consistency . Plus it will make dialling in your new grinder a little less painful . Glad your enjoying your coffee .


I think the pain comes with a VST basket on a naked PF - that's in the future if I go that far! But yes - I have a good digital postal scales so can weigh accurately. The Mazzer Mini is an old doser, so I'll have to learn how to get 14g out of it. I've done hours, hours and hours of research on all this and keeping a log of everything. Coffee is a bit of a revelation. I had a Starbucks decaf the other day and it was below the level of a Lavazza pod. Now I have taste and the coffee is alive.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

les24preludes said:


> I think the pain comes with a VST basket on a naked PF - that's in the future if I go that far! But yes - I have a good digital postal scales so can weigh accurately. The Mazzer Mini is an old doser, so I'll have to learn how to get 14g out of it. I've done hours, hours and hours of research on all this and keeping a log of everything. Coffee is a bit of a revelation. I had a Starbucks decaf the other day and it was below the level of a Lavazza pod. Now I have taste and the coffee is alive.


Best way to get 14g out of it , is to weigh it after its come out







You can faff around setting up the doser etc, but they are designed to run with full hopper and volume service ( doser than is ) .


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Best way to get 14g out of it , is to weigh it after its come out
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep. Look at the cleansweep type mods, dose 14g in and ensure you get 14g out the other end. It's the same more or less as the SJ doser I would imagine, you just have to thwack many lots of times.


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