# Londinium L1 for sale.. what do you think?



## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/131689745649511/?ref=search&referral_code=marketplace_search&referral_story_type=post&tracking=browse_serp%3Ac40bd5a5-d9aa-4328-9f65-4020cc078996


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

It's an original Mk I Londinium and priced on the optimistic side of £1200 - £1250.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

The Systemic Kid said:


> It's an original Mk I Londinium and priced on the optimistic side of £1200 - £1250.


 Thanks.. given the right price recommended or not?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> Thanks.. given the right price recommended or not?


 I think you will find it has one or two little problems at the moment. The current owner will sort out these issues quickly and to a high standard and I am sure if you contacted him he would be upfront and tell you, since they happened after posting the advert


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I'm almost 100% sure that's CupraJake - a member here.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@MediumRoastSteam



MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm almost 100% sure that's CupraJake - a member here.


 It is....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm almost 100% sure that's CupraJake - a member here.


 I'd go 101%😀


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Hi all

Yep its mine,

Had a nightmare few weeks after shelling out over £5500 on two brand new machines for both to be faulty.

I boxed the lr24 back up, put the l1 back in place and it blew the pressure relief.

Tracked it down to a faulty sirai pressure switch. Its still the old one,

So ive ordered an upgrade versin along with anti vac, and pressure valve.

Since i bought it, i serviced it.

Replaced the group and sleeve seals for silicone cafelet ones

Changes the sleeve inner seals

Upgraded the basket to vst and also bought a brand new londinium naked pf

So it stands me at close to £1600 now.

I was encouraged that it would be a good machine, and bar this its been on daily since i bought it.

Tbf now after the crap ive had im tempted to just keep it. Seem theres no qc anymore

Oh spent £350 on thyua burr handles, they were ear marked for the lr24😭😳😔


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@MediumRoastSteam Yes. Same guy.. apparently there's a back story.. but my real question is, all things equal, is the L1 inherently a good choice or there better choices out there? I'm pretty confident with semi automatic machines but new to the world of Levers!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If it is a lever you want, and second hand, there is nothing better at the price point that an original L1. Some say they are not as good with lighter roasts but I have never tried them as I like medium plus stuff. But like anything, you need a grinder to suit and you need to learn your craft, and that takes a little time!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> my real question is, all things equal, is the L1 inherently a good choice or there better choices out there


 I can't answer that. I have used Londinium machines before, at the lever days. Was I blown away by it? Nope. Would it be a "holy coffee Batman! How didn't I think of this before?" Not for me, sorry. Saying that, his was my perception over a few pulls. I didn't do it for me to the point that I'd be re-evaluating my setup. But that's personal.

The other lever I tried was the V Vostok, and, by what I saw, I'd have that. Better pressure, better taste, far more control over temperature. And no silly phone apps to control pre-infusion&#8230; one of the things I really dislike about coffee machines or roasters (kudos to Londinium for allowing you to adjust the pressure without the app though, but you'd need to remove the side panel, which could be challenging depending on machine location). On the V Vostok you need to remove the top plate and adjust it manually. No fancy tech (which I like, personally).

Again, big disclaimer, I've only used the machines very briefly, so not a true account of day to day usability.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

The l1 is focused for med to dark roasts

You cant compare a l1 to a vostok theres over a grand and 10yr tech between them.

What i like about :

you can just walk up, grind tamp and pull a shot, it steams like a beast and its repeatable. The main variable is yourself

what i dont like :

its not suited for lighter roasts or long pre infusion.

theres a reason most machines try to mimic a lever shot.

i jumped to the crem as it pressure profiled, like wise the lr24 can pre infuse etc


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Cuprajake said:


> The l1 is focused for med to dark roasts
> 
> You cant compare a l1 to a vostok theres over a grand and 10yr tech between them.
> 
> ...


 I didn't realise the LR24 was faulty too. You have to be due some good luck now!


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

dfk41 said:


> If it is a lever you want, and second hand, there is nothing better at the price point that an original L1. Some say they are not as good with lighter roasts but I have never tried them as I like medium plus stuff. But like anything, you need a grinder to suit and you need to learn your craft, and that takes a little time!


 Yep.. well I haver a Niche so should be OK on that score and I'm still learning!! Thanks !!!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Cuprajake said:


> You cant compare a l1 to a vostok theres over a grand and 10yr tech between them.


 I didn't. I compared to the LR24.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cuprajake said:


> The l1 is focused for med to dark roasts
> 
> You cant compare a l1 to a vostok theres over a grand and 10yr tech between them.
> 
> ...


 My two pennies worth if i may

Lots of users had the original l1 and made great lighter roasted espresso with them , yes there are other iterates and machines that do different things but as jake is entitled to his view , and experience so other can offer theirs. a huge chunk of the original owner base drank lighter roasted coffee on here, you can argue other machines may have features that may give you some additional benefit or be "better"

Having owned an original l1 for a number of years I drank good lighter roasted coffee with it and enjoyed it, no more valid than Jake's opionion or experience but i had my L1 for a couple of years

I did some 20 seconds odd shots of pre infusion with mine

Ultimately I didnt see a massive benefit overall to pressure profiling ( Vesuvius ) for lighter roasts.

I have a flow variable machine now and for me I dint like the texture or balance than super long pre infusion brings , its not a magic bullet for everyone .

What I liked about the L1

The "look"

Was at the time great value versus gs3 and other high end machines, at £1200 to £1400 a well looked after second hand one would be more bang for buck than most machines at that price.

Didnt need to plumb

Big drip tray and tank

Didnt like

Pump noise for tank fed machines

Changing seals , i fount the quality hit or miss and it a faff to do , no machine is maintenance free, all the ovens i have had pump and lever have had seals, pumps , OPvs go


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> I did some 20 seconds odd shots of pre infusion with mine


 When the original Londinium debuted in 2011/12, Reiss recommended pre-infusing for around 5 secs. This was for an 'optimised' dose of 15.8grms of medium plus roast. In the early days, Reiss was given a lot of grief regarding the machine's temp stability which he claimed was rock steady. Turned out the temp fluctuations were caused by the thermosyphon being stalled with long pre-infusion times. With the original L1, the thermosyphon stops circulating when the lever is cocked with the risk of air getting into the thermosyphon loop. As the loop isn't pumped, it's prone to stalling which causes the group to lose heat as the group is reliant on thermosyphon circulation.

Stalling the thermosyphon isn't the end of the world - it can be bled easily by flushing and/or running the hot tap. That said, the original L1 wasn't designed for long pre-infusion. With the introduction of the rotary pump in the LR series, it's possible to run pre-infusion for as long as you want without stalling the thermosyphon making the LR derivatives much more suited to lighter roast whilst still being great for medium darker roasts.


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

I'm with @Mrboots2u on this one. Had mine a few years now, its the original L1 plumbed in, and had no problem pulling light roasts as well as medium. Found 16g in a larger basket worked best for me (with medium). Shot size is limited due to piston volume - you wouldnt want a 20g to 46g ratio, but the simplicity of the machine is great. I've also got a Vesuvius and Decent and ironically my go to profile on both mimics a lever! Although my profile hit 9 then decline, the L1 peaks at 7 bar. I know Jake has had Londinium problems but on the original L1's they are simple machines with great support.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Stevebee said:


> I've also got a Vesuvius and Decent and ironically my go to profile on both mimics a lever!


 Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

The Systemic Kid said:


> When the original Londinium debuted in 2011/12, Reiss recommended pre-infusing for around 5 secs. This was for an 'optimised' dose of 15.8grms of medium plus roast. In the early days, Reiss was given a lot of grief regarding the machine's temp stability which he claimed was rock steady. Turned out the temp fluctuations were caused by the thermosyphon being stalled with long pre-infusion times. With the original L1, the thermosyphon stops circulating when the lever is cocked with the risk of air getting into the thermosyphon loop. As the loop isn't pumped, it's prone to stalling which causes the group to lose heat as the group is reliant on thermosyphon circulation.
> 
> Stalling the thermosyphon isn't the end of the world - it can be bled easily by flushing and/or running the hot tap. That said, the original L1 wasn't designed for long pre-infusion. With the introduction of the rotary pump in the LR series, it's possible to run pre-infusion for as long as you want without stalling the thermosyphon making the LR derivatives much more suited to lighter roast whilst still being great for medium darker roasts.


 @The Systemic Kid So in effect what you are saying is that as long as you don't pre-infuse for more than 5 seconds, you are golden and the L1 is a good'un.


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

My opinion has always been that an adequate grinder, and specific baskets (VST's look ugly but they flow faster which in turn allows for grinding finer) can go to far greater lengths than whatever seconds of pre-infusion. I also down-dose a little bit which again reduces resistance and allows fine grinding without building too much pressure. And I use a puck screen to help evenness.

Maybe all of this is a farce, but it's worked for me. Often I've not even bothered preinfusing with the Bianca and I've been drinking pretty light stuff. No sourness to speak of, often very enjoyable. The paddle has been mostly used as a tool to save a shot when I wasn't fully dialled in.

I would like to try a L1 to see whether it really is difficult or if it can work fine with lighter roasts. I think the latter merely cause it's not 1 bar of higher preinfusion that will make your shot go from zero to hero, but some points have been raised about temperature so I am not sure.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Dallah said:


> @The Systemic Kid So in effect what you are saying is that as long as you don't pre-infuse for more than 5 seconds, you are golden and the L1 is a good'un.


 Mk I Londinium produces excellent espresso. Capable of working with lighter roasts too. I used to dose 18grms > 36grms but never pre-infused longer that 10-12 secs. Beyond that, IMO, you run the risk of stalling the thermosyphon.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Roko said:


> My opinion has always been that an adequate grinder, and specific baskets (VST's look ugly but they flow faster which in turn allows for grinding finer) can go to far greater lengths than whatever seconds of pre-infusion.


 Agree.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Well, if never really even tried lighter stuff with the l1 as id read it wasnt geared up for them.

I now have a set of ssp redspeed burrs, and the vst and ims even the fsncy e&b basket.

Just never tried.

Might have a go.

Ive never stalled the thermosypon but then ive never held past say 10s

In the original instructions, reiss give guide on how to use the lever. Originally it was pull lever release, its since chsnged to wait for drips.

I might just keep it, ill have replaced most of the big things shortly 🤣


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Well, if never really even tried lighter stuff with the l1 as id read it wasnt geared up for them.
> 
> I now have a set of ssp redspeed burrs, and the vst and ims even the fsncy e&b basket.
> 
> ...


 There's loads of folks, and I'll tag @Denis S as a high profile example (hope he won't mind me tagging him) who use machines like the Decent to pull turbo shots, that extract very fast (I myself have done stuff like 16:48 in 20s) with excellent results. I've done it myself with the Bianca and some El Carmen from Coffee by the Casuals, and it tasted noticeably sweeter than my previous (many) attempts with traditional techniques.

All of this is not to say that everybody should do this funky stuff every time; just that, even if you can't preinfuse for long times, that's not the only way to get a lighter roast to taste good.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Once shes up and running ill have more of a play.

I do tend to do 16g in dose, just the stock basket. That way i keep my handles😂


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## Roko (Apr 23, 2021)

Cuprajake said:


> Once shes up and running ill have more of a play.
> 
> I do tend to do 16g in dose, just the stock basket. That way i keep my handles😂
> 
> View attachment 57829


 Don't let vanity get in the way of high extraction Jake! 🤣


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Cuprajake said:


> Once shes up and running ill have more of a play.
> 
> I do tend to do 16g in dose, just the stock basket. That way i keep my handles😂
> 
> View attachment 57829


 those handles are pukka.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

Stevebee said:


> I'm with @Mrboots2u on this one. Had mine a few years now, its the original L1 plumbed in, and had no problem pulling light roasts as well as medium. Found 16g in a larger basket worked best for me (with medium). Shot size is limited due to piston volume - you wouldnt want a 20g to 46g ratio, but the simplicity of the machine is great. I've also got a Vesuvius and Decent and ironically my go to profile on both mimics a lever! Although my profile hit 9 then decline, the L1 peaks at 7 bar. I know Jake has had Londinium problems but on the original L1's they are simple machines with great support.


 So you really HAVE got one of everything! My daily driver is a Vesuvius.. I can't understand why they are so little known about. Incredible machine which I learnt about here and bought second hand as a bargain! What is your Lever profile(s) setting on the V? Thanks!


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Must admit i was eyeing the same ves at the time i got the londinium 🤣🤣


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

GrahamSPhillips said:


> So you really HAVE got one of everything! My daily driver is a Vesuvius.. I can't understand why they are so little known about. Incredible machine which I learnt about here and bought second hand as a bargain! What is your Lever profile(s) setting on the V? Thanks!


 If you have the original set of profiles it is P1 that mimics the current Vesuvius Leva Evo, it goes up to almost 11 bars. AFAIK most of the lever machines do not go above 9 bars (some are even lower). Having used this profile for more than a year now I could understand why people want a lever machine so much.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> Must admit i was eyeing the same ves at the time i got the londinium 🤣🤣


 Have you ever thought "I would have been better had I gone for the Ves"?


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

John Yossarian said:


> Have you ever thought "I would have been better had I gone for the Ves"?


 Yes and no the ves was miles away 🤣

I asked about a new one but there £2500 plus import


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Cuprajake said:


> Yes and no the ves was miles away 🤣
> 
> I asked about a new one but there £2500 plus import


 It seems you have had a bag of bad luck lately. I hope things get better.


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

John Yossarian said:


> If you have the original set of profiles it is P1 that mimics the current Vesuvius Leva Evo, it goes up to almost 11 bars. AFAIK most of the lever machines do not go above 9 bars (some are even lower). Having used this profile for more than a year now I could understand why people want a lever machine so much.


 All the profiles on my machine have been changed at some point. If you have the time to let me have the detail of your P1 that would be really appreciated!!


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## GrahamSPhillips (Jan 29, 2021)

@Cuprajake Yep - well we met half way so the drive wasn't too much. OMG what a machine but it has almost TOO many options to play with- can be a bit overwhelming tbh


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Cuprajake said:


> Yes and no the ves was miles away 🤣
> 
> I asked about a new one but there £2500 plus import


 Once I'm settled you can come have a go on Vostok. 👍


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

Thanks bud, 👍

To keep this updated, new bit will be here shortly so i took the parts off.

Was happily surprised at the inside of the boiler.


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