# Advise on first proper machine for the house



## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

Hi all, I hope this is the right place to ask, if not apology in advance .

I'm looking for first proper machine for the house as we don't have a machine and we both love having coffee. We'll be making probably around 3 or 4 drinks a day and probably slightly more at the weekend. I drink only flat white or long black and my wife either latte or long black.

Before i start asking a few questions, we run a small coffee shop and we use La Spaziale S40 Seletron with Anfim Super Caimano grinder for our beans and Mahlkonig Vario 3 for Swiss Water decaf beans. This setup hasn't let us down and we both enjoying the coffee and also all our customers. So we've decided to get a machine for the house as every time we have visitors either friends or family we can only give them instant or tea .

We have a budget probably £1000 inc the grinder or we could invest a different grinder for the decaf at the shop and taking the Vario for home. The machine I'm looking at is Nuova Simonelli Oscar II but after a lot of reading that machine needing Sirai and OPV kit. Could get from Elektros.it with the kit installed but what about the warranty and also would like to order from UK rather abroad in case anything happens? From coffeeitalia can get it with the grinder Rancillio Rocky SD (not sure if this is a good grinder?) set.

We do our shots at the shop between 16-18 gr of ground and we get around 58-59 gr of espresso (I think 1:3 ratio) at 9 bar and 24.8 - 25 secs. Is it possible to get roughly the same with Oscar II as I found out that's the best combination for our beans or am I asking too much?

Hopefully somebody could help me as we are hoping to get the machine after Christmas.

Many thanks


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

I'd go for Sage Duo Temp Pro and a good grinder as going for Oscar II would not leave you much for the grinder.

No experience with Elektros website.


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## Batian (Oct 23, 2017)

Would this interest? It came through with a seasonal e-mail from Bella Barista.

They advertise on the forum and are well thought off here as responsible and customer orientated.

I can recommend BB but I have no idea about the machine and grinder!

The offer is time limited.

https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/special-offers/special-offer-rancilio-silvia-black-edition-with-eureka-mignon-manuale-save-65.html


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

This would leave you £300 for a grinder, which would easily get you an SJ/Major etc.

Just followed the previous link on BB.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Rhys said:


> This would leave you £300 for a grinder, which would easily get you an SJ/Major etc.
> 
> Just followed the previous link on BB.


Great find. They even reccommend a £300 grinder that colour matches quite well!


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## ATZ (Aug 4, 2017)

Rhys said:


> This would leave you £300 for a grinder, which would easily get you an SJ/Major etc.
> 
> Just followed the previous link on BB.


Quite a striking/unusual color for an espresso machine as well!


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

Rhys said:


> This would leave you £300 for a grinder, which would easily get you an SJ/Major etc.
> 
> Just followed the previous link on BB.


That is really good. I'll speak to the wife about the colour first.

We probably need at least hx machine as we probably will take it out for a few private events as we cannot take our S40 as that one plumbed in to the main.

Thanks for the help guys.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

willykatie said:


> That is really good. I'll speak to the wife about the colour first.
> 
> We probably need at least hx machine as we probably will take it out for a few private events as we cannot take our S40 as that one plumbed in to the main.
> 
> Thanks for the help guys.


Don't let the colour put you off. It can be be vinyl wrapped or powdercoated for not much.


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

I'll mention that to the wife that can be vinyl wrap to off white similar to our S40







.

I'm just wondering, with our S40, after I set everything when I pull the shot, it stops automatically and would tell me on the screen that if i'm way off the extraction or not and I could correct it by adjusting the grinder again. For example in the morning I have to adjust the grinder to slightly coarse as the way the beans to the ambient temperature and by around before lunch time when we start getting busy I have to adjust the grinder again to make it slightly finer to reach around 24.8-25 secs extraction. Is it possible with domestic machine to do this or do I have to stop it manually?

Sorry never use other machine before so not sure how to get things right.

I need machine with OPV if I want to set the brew pressure to 9 bar and I need PID if I want to have stable temperature don't I? Are there machine around my budget? I could persuade SWMBO to increase the budget slightly to allow better grinder as well such as that Eureka? Had a look that Niche Zero and she liked it as well but I think if we need to use to use for private functions that might not be feasible as can only take 50gr of coffee at the time?

Sorry for all the questions.

Many thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

willykatie said:


> Had a look that Niche Zero and she liked it as well but I think if we need to use to use for private functions that might not be feasible as can only take 50gr of coffee at the time?


So why would that affect anything in a single group machine that's relatively portable? You grind 1 dose, place in portafilter, then while the shot is extracting, grind anther dose...it will be ready before you are.....sure you would need 2 sets of scales, 1 to weight beans and the second on the machine weighing the extraction. Or were you anticipating a large commercial grinder with doser.

The limit on coffee the Niche can take is part of the design, and to save people from themselves...







There will of course always be a few people that have way of working (or unusual corcumstance) that means they cannot make the shots fast enough on a 1 group machine and need a faster grinder...but they are relatively rare.

If you are intending to have the private functions showcase your business, or as training events...then your budget is probably a little low.


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## ncrc51 (Mar 14, 2018)

If you are planning to move it around some for private events, I'd consider physical size, weight and durability of both the machine and grinder. Also, voltage (amperage) requirements of the machine. I'm in the US and have a Mini Vivaldi that can operate at either 15 or 20 amps. There is a difference in steaming between the two settings, but 20 amp circuits are less available than 15 amp. Agree with Dave that your budget, at least for new equipment is on the low side.


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I don't think there are many volumetric machines for home use, except for levers as they have a set amount of water in the group. If you want a volumetric machine then blow your budget substantially


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> So why would that affect anything in a single group machine that's relatively portable? You grind 1 dose, place in portafilter, then while the shot is extracting, grind anther dose...it will be ready before you are.....sure you would need 2 sets of scales, 1 to weight beans and the second on the machine weighing the extraction. Or were you anticipating a large commercial grinder with doser.
> 
> The limit on coffee the Niche can take is part of the design, and to save people from themselves...
> 
> ...


That makes sense actually. The machine I'll be getting for the house only a single group .

I think I was just expecting getting a machine and grinder like what I have at the shop for the house for a very limited budget lol.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

The obvious machine to trundle about would be a decent espresso simply for the suitcase it arrives in. It's over budget & has a waiting list though.


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

Yeah was looking at them. They are expensive lol.

After a few looking around, I think we are going to up our budget slightly as we will be using the machine for business showcase or private function outside our shop as well so we can claim the VAT back.

Our budget probably around £1500 with the grinder now. Had a look at Profited Pro 300 with Eureka Mignon Specialita. Just wondering if there are any other suggestions?

Many thanks

Edit: forgot to add the other machine I was looking I think Expobar Leva, I think around the same price as well.

Also we get our engineer to service the S40 every year Inc our grinder, do i need to service this machine every year as well?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Well with that budget, It would be new something like Lelit. Or just wait see what pops in the for sale area.


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

Had a look at Lelit as well. I did have a look at quite a few around £1000 - £1100 machine and the rest for the grinder.

I'll have a look at reviews between these machines and that might help me decide


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Or wait until the Minima is released.


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

I wonder when is minima going to be released? That looks like a really good machine.

Does anyone know what machine doesn't use mechanic pump to pull the espresso shot like all e61 group. I mean like a push button and stop automatically?

Thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

willykatie said:


> I wonder when is minima going to be released? That looks like a really good machine.
> 
> Does anyone know what machine doesn't use mechanic pump to pull the espresso shot like all e61 group. I mean like a push button and stop automatically?
> 
> Thanks


minima should be released very soon after Christmas....I hoped to have a production one this week for final testing, but it never made it..


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

Thanks. I probably going to wait for it then. At the moment I'm down to Lelit Mara 62 Delux or Expobar Leva Dual Boiler. But Minima sounds really good.

I thought you had one for a review and a few beta machines sold around summer?

Thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

willykatie said:


> Thanks. I probably going to wait for it then. At the moment I'm down to Lelit Mara 62 Delux or Expobar Leva Dual Boiler. But Minima sounds really good.
> 
> I thought you had one for a review and a few beta machines sold around summer?
> 
> Thanks


I did it was an early Beta, that one was sold off cheap by ACS and I await a Production machine for final testing, PID configuration tuning and generally making sure it works really well....or as well as it can for the price. After which they have to decide the retail channel...either direct sale, or via a Retailer. The problem is keeping the end price under control and not becoming far too expensive. It was always meant to be a decent quality dual boiler for the same or less than an HX.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Dont like to say it but "caffeeitalia " are advertising them !!


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

I wonder what would it be the final price for them. Quite like it actually and I think that's the one we'll be getting when it comes out.

What would you pick Dave between Minima and Lelit Mara 62? I see from your review that you liked both of them.

Is caffeeitalia even legit as read a few reviews and seems pretty bad. I know I was looking to purchase from them at the beginning.


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## Nicknak (Aug 10, 2018)

Up at £1250


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## ncrc51 (Mar 14, 2018)

I have a US spec Minima beta. Have only had it up and running for a few days but am very impressed. I've ordered and am waiting on a few accessories (quality tamper, leveler, precision 19g. basket) that should arrive within a week or so. At that time I may have better observations to share. I'm struggling with the plastic tamper that came in the accessory pack. My machine was/is a Mini Vivaldi so I didn't have any of the accessories that most if not all E61 owners would possess. If you are young and strong it would be a good machine to move about as it appears very well put together and compact. Pulls great shots, recovers quickly and has great steam. If your machine has a rotary pump you might find it a bit noisy due to the vibratory pump.


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

I was looking at S1 Vivaldi as well at the beginning as have S40 Seletron and love it but I think it looks slightly too big for the house it looks pretty heavy as well?

What do you think between Vivaldi and Minima? How do they compare?

Thanks and merry Xmas all


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

I just looked at the Minima, selling in Poland for equivalent of 1600 eur while the Lelit Bianca can be had for 1780 eur


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## ncrc51 (Mar 14, 2018)

willykatie said:


> I was looking at S1 Vivaldi as well at the beginning as have S40 Seletron and love it but I think it looks slightly too big for the house it looks pretty heavy as well?
> 
> What do you think between Vivaldi and Minima? How do they compare?
> 
> Thanks and merry Xmas all


The Vivaldi is a bit on the wide side. Not overly tall or deep. Pared with something like a black Niche Zero would have a reasonable footprint. I'd say it weighs about the same as the Minima, perhaps a few kg's more. Solidly built. The Minima, to most folks including me, would be prettier. It's easier to find accessories for an E61 machine, but you can get "everything" in the Vivaldi portafilter size. There are shot timer options with the Vivaldi that the Minima does not have. I have never regretted the purchase of the Vivaldi, intend to keep it and would not hesitate to purchase another La Spaziale machine. It's been reliable and easy to service on the couple of times that was needed. It's well supported here in the States by Chris Coffee. Both my wife and I think the espresso (we are almost exclusively milk drinkers so not necessarily the most discriminating palate) is noticeably smoother from the Minima. With the US spec machine the steaming performance of the Vivaldi is at least as good as the Minima, which was a surprise to me based on the boiler size. I hope this is helpful.


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

Thanks @ncrc51.

Hopefully Minima coming out very soon here in the UK. I did have a look Lelit Mara 62 and also Expobar Leva Dual Boiler.

I think made up my mind on the machine, just going to find a grinder now.

Thanks again


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

I thought i did, but just had a look at Profitec 600. Is the 600 just a tank version of 700?

Showed swmbo of Vessuvius as there are a few for sale in the classifieds just now and she liked it but don't have quite enough at the moment lol.

Between Minima and Profitec 600, what would be a better choice. I would be using it for the house and maybe a few occasions for private events that I would be taking it out of the house to other places.

thanks


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

The 600 also uses a vibration pump

The Minima should be enough for anything in comparison to it IMO


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

@DavecUK just wondering if you hear anymore news when they start releasing the minima?

What do people think of Bezzera Duo compare to Profited 600?

Thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

willykatie said:


> @DavecUK just wondering if you hear anymore news when they start releasing the minima?
> 
> What do people think of Bezzera Duo compare to Profited 600?
> 
> Thanks


I hope to get a production one next week, after which I guess it might only be a few weeks for them to start shipping them.


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## willykatie (Dec 20, 2018)

DavecUK said:


> I hope to get a production one next week, after which I guess it might only be a few weeks for them to start shipping them.


Would it be from Bella barista or direct from them do you think?

Thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

willykatie said:


> Would it be from Bella barista or direct from them do you think?
> 
> Thanks


I'm hoping BB, because that would be an ideal situation, I guess it depends on a few things....


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## Mynameisatlas (Apr 27, 2019)

@DavecUK Hi Dave!

Hope you dont mind the tag, I'm looking at getting a Bezzera Duo and saw you were looking at getting one a while back, did you have any success? Would love some feedback on the machine before I pull the trigger!


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Get a grip non of the above


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Stop spamming, either interact or just do one.


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## Kman10 (Sep 3, 2014)

I would buy the best grinder you can then think about a manual machine, a great grinder will outlast the machine in many cases

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mynameisatlas said:


> @DavecUK Hi Dave!
> 
> Hope you dont mind the tag, I'm looking at getting a Bezzera Duo and saw you were looking at getting one a while back, did you have any success? Would love some feedback on the machine before I pull the trigger!


 @Mynameisatlas I don't remember getting one either to buy or for review. Bezzera make some good kit, been doing it a long time. If the specifications meet your needs and you like the look of it, go for it. My only comment would be that a 0.45 lt brew boiler is a bit small, I think around 800ml is a better size. A 1 litre service boiler is also a little small, again better to have 1.5 litre or above. A 4 litre cold water tank is way too large and should have been 2 to 3 litres, preferably around 2 litres. My view on very large water tanks has changed with increased experience. I suppose you could fill the tank with 1 or 2 litres only to get around any issues.

I think there is probably better available for the same sort of money, but if you like it, go for it.

All comment based on stated specifications below....disclaimer I have never used or examined this machine and my views are my own I have no business connection to the vendor or Bezerra themselves.

https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/bezzera-duo-mn.html


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## Mynameisatlas (Apr 27, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> @Mynameisatlas I don't remember getting one either to buy or for review. Bezzera make some good kit, been doing it a long time. If the specifications meet your needs and you like the look of it, go for it. My only comment would be that a 0.45 lt brew boiler is a bit small, I think around 800ml is a better size. A 1 litre service boiler is also a little small, again better to have 1.5 litre or above. A 4 litre cold water tank is way too large and should have been 2 to 3 litres, preferably around 2 litres. My view on very large water tanks has changed with increased experience. I suppose you could fill the tank with 1 or 2 litres only to get around any issues.
> 
> I think there is probably better available for the same sort of money, but if you like it, go for it.
> 
> ...


 Hey dave! Thanks for the info, you've given me some things to think about,

Out of interest...Would you have any suggestions for a semi-automatic machine of a similar price bracket?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mynameisatlas said:


> Hey dave! Thanks for the info, you've given me some things to think about,
> 
> Out of interest...Would you have any suggestions for a semi-automatic machine of a similar price bracket?


 Depends on what you want out of the machine, features and what you like/don't like, available space etc...


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## Mynameisatlas (Apr 27, 2019)

DavecUK said:


> Depends on what you want out of the machine, features and what you like/don't like, available space etc...


 Sorry dave, Maybe I should have been more specific.

We're setting up our Roastary at the moment, and we're looking for a small semi-automatic espresso machine to make our own drinks, and of course test our roasted coffee in,

We will only be serving to us (Staff), and the occasional client and guests that visit our roastary, so it will be making 5-7 drinks a day max. We originally planned for a Linea Mini, but we're looking for something more semi automatic to make it more friendly to other users that come to roastary, if they want to make a drink while I'm roasting, I'd like it to be a little more user friendly than the Linea.

We're using a K30 grinder to go with said machine.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The next model up of the Bezzera is volumetric.

https://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/bezzera-duo-de.html

It seems to be a pretty unique machine. A few early reports mentioned condensation in the display but assuming there have been previous releases the current one is V4. Switch to HX and there are plenty offering this around.

There may be machines around that offer just timed shots. I work like that and for constant shot output grind preparation needs some care.  However it's interesting to see how much shot size can change before the taste does noticeably as well.

I have never used a volumetric machine so in real terms have no idea how well they work.

John

-


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Mynameisatlas said:


> Sorry dave, Maybe I should have been more specific.
> 
> We're setting up our Roastary at the moment, and we're looking for a small semi-automatic espresso machine to make our own drinks, and of course test our roasted coffee in,
> 
> ...


 That does change things quite a lot. Here is what you don't want.



Lever Machine


Pressure Profiling machine


BTC, Full Auto or Volumetric


Heat Exchanger Machine


It should be obvious once you think about it why none of the above will be suitable for your specific needs.

To do what I think you want requires someone responsible for the machine (refilling, cleaning, dropping the shower screen daily to clean, emptying the drip tray etc..) and dialling in the grinder each day. For the volume you anticipate you certainly don't need anything like a LM LM or any type of machine with commercial leanings. *Unfortunately trying to make it too simple for the customer will dumb down the drink production/quality too much*. What I would do is set the grinder so the coffee can be scraped level in the double basket (no weighing) and then give them a time to extract the coffee e.g. 25 seconds or 30 seconds. Use a tamper that levels and can be adjusted down to the basket rim as required for that coffee...These tools are useless in the main for distribution (as I found on my own tests), but will allow a reasonably consistent and level tamp.

Just remember the whole setup will need to be tuned to the coffee you are using each time you change it and checked every day.

https://tinyurl.com/y4ebo3kp










Have the info in simple steps on a card beside the machine. It's not perfect but will allow someone with little knowledge to make a decent enough drink and showcase your coffees as best they can be when not weighing input/output and made with experienced hands.

S*o you are left with my recommendation a small dual boiler machine*. You want them to experience your coffee at it's best but you don't need to spend too much. You also don't want guests thinking they have to spend many thousands to get a decent coffee from your beans. A Good dual boiler can be had from £1250 thru to £2500 and even at the lower end of the scale will have absolutely no problem dealing with your requirements, in fact I make more coffees myself in a day.

The huge advantage is that when you want to drive the machine yourself and showcase your coffee to a new client you can do to give the best possible result and also demonstrate to the client that you don't need something the price of a LMLM to do it, or even highly trained staff in the case of a business client. Ultimately as a roaster, you should eventually get yourself a BTC machine, Filter/Pourover, HX machines but these will be *for you to *understand how your roasting works with all these other methods giving you the widest customer base and ensuring you don't recommend unsuitable coffees for certain machines.

If you want to discuss more, pm me your phone number and I'll discuss with you....take far too long to explain things on here.


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