# Ratios



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If it is generally accepted that a starting point is to extract 60% more than the dry weight, does this theory hold when you go up the weight range? I have an old triple basket and was going to try to extract two double shots from it. Now, I doubt that I can get 36 gms into the basket (I have not started to experiment yet, but am just thinking it through). What I would love to do, is extract two double espresso shots from one basket. Is that possible? I know all about the restrictions a lever impose and this will probably never happen, but I have often wondered about it.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What are you judging as a double shot? 4 fl oz? ....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I usually extract around 35 Mls as a double


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> I usually extract around 35 Mls as a double


If you want to get 2 double shots at 35g you will need obviously a 70g output. At a 1.6 ratio putting 44g of ground coffee into a basket seems rather excessive. IMHO


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

What your proposing won't be very tasty.

Either get a two group or make two " double" shots separately.....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> If it is generally accepted that a starting point is to extract 60% more than the dry weight, does this theory hold when you go up the weight range?.


It (the ratio) doesn't change at all if you change the weight, up or down. The ratio sets the target concentration of the shot (around 11.5%TDS +/-1%TDS).

However, the depth of the puck may affect body, crema and at extremes the ease at which you can pull a shot without over/underextracting.

There is no ideal/correct ratio, it's down to preference (mouthfeel vs clarity of flavour).

Say your lever group holds around 60g (as an example, may be less, even if designed for 60g) the puck will eat up it's own weigh in water, so now you only have

A 36g dose, if it were possible, may only produce shots in the 150% range at best from one group full...these will be underextracted for sure. You'd need to be doing repeated Fellini moves/pulls of the lever...even then, it may not work. It's quicker and actually feasible to pull 2 doubles (especially if you have a 2 group machine).

Out of curiosity why do you want to pull 2 doubles at once? Bigger shot volume or a bigger caffeine hit? An Aeropress/Moka pot is probably your best bet for extracting 36g in one hit, at a high concentration, even then, at best it'll be half the concentration of a 60% espresso shot.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I see people putting two cups under a twin spout and of course realise that they are just splitting a double into two singles, so I just took it a stage further and wondered if it would actually be possible to increase everything to produce two actual doubles


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> I see people putting two cups under a twin spout and of course realise that they are just splitting a double into two singles, so I just took it a stage further and wondered if it would actually be possible to increase everything to produce two actual doubles


The "Coffee Shop" at work regularly puts two cups under a twin spout to split the shot..... and then tips both back into another cup to make a latte/cappo....

It's no great loss to be honest as the two cups are paper cups that get re-used several times... and the latte/cappo is also a paper cup (which is only used once)..... so doubling the "loss" by splitting and then joining is the least of the issues....

Needless to say I don't actually drink coffee from this "Coffee Shop".......


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Probably not (from a lever, from a pump machine maybe it is? I don't know how much effort in trying to make it work would be considered reasonable...sourcing a basket is the first & rather big hurdle) in terms of producing a "quadruple" brewed shot from one PF, but 2x 30g cupfulls from 1 PF are certainly possible, probably always have been...

http://www.prufrockcoffee.com/the-prufrock-coffee-blog/


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## majnu (Jan 31, 2014)

What confuses me is what unit of measurement should be used.

The Americans say a double shot of espresso should hold 2 fluid oz which is around 60 Ml.

Then the Brits say use ratios, multiply your ground beans weight by 1.55 or 1.6. So 18 grams in the portafilter will equal 28g-30g output.

But then I measured 2 flz oz and it was around 59 grams.

I use fresh beans, dialled in my grinder so that it extracts within 25-30 seconds, OPV is at 9 bar, temp is around 95C, tamp consistently and yet I can never get excellent espresso, hence why I stick to milk based drinks.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

majnu said:


> What confuses me is what unit of measurement should be used.
> 
> The Americans say a double shot of espresso should hold 2 fluid oz which is around 60 Ml.
> 
> ...


It was actually a very clever American who instigated & popularised the idea of brewing espresso by ratio based on weight.

Theoretically, you may be able to extract excellent espresso at a wide range of ratios, in reality, many people have certain preference bands that relate to their expectation of "espresso".

When brewing by ratio, don't get too hung up on time (within reason), focus on the ratio & adjust grind based on taste.

How does your 59g shot taste?

Be aware that a 2fl oz shot will probably weigh significantly less than 59g when you cut the shot, due to the lesser mass of the crema.


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## jjprestidge (Oct 11, 2012)

MWJB said:


> Probably not (from a lever, from a pump machine maybe it is? I don't know how much effort in trying to make it work would be considered reasonable...sourcing a basket is the first & rather big hurdle) in terms of producing a "quadruple" brewed shot from one PF, but 2x 30g cupfulls from 1 PF are certainly possible, probably always have been...
> 
> http://www.prufrockcoffee.com/the-prufrock-coffee-blog/


They've been doing that in St Ali for a while. However, the shot does seem to get lost a bit in anything bigger than a 5oz flat white.

JP


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Never bothered with weighing and working out brew ratios. I can always tweak a coffee by taste within a handful of shots.

Weighed a bang-on shot this morning though. 60%. 15g in.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

Have I lost the plot? (No need to answer this)

Isn't it the case that 7g of ground coffee is the standard definition of a single and 14g a double?

If so, when you split the output from a 28g basket you are technically creating two doubles.

How long or short these coffees will be, will entirely depend on the ratio you use, but that is not the point.

No?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

A single dose might be 5.5g to 10g (commonly 7-9g), a double 11g to 22g (commonly 16-20g), higher end may also be referred to as a triple. There's some dovetailing, so not hard & fast rules at the tipping points.

Not aware of any 28g baskets.

Anything from 7-9g of grinds in a basket is 'single brewed', you could split in to 2 cups if you wanted, but that wouldn't make it a double.

Likewise, the output from a double basket & dose is 'double brewed' irrespective of the number of cups it is split into. It's a double shot in one cup, split into 2 single shots if split into 2 cups.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

MWJB said:


> A single dose might be 5.5g to 10g (commonly 7-9g), a double 11g to 22g (commonly 16-20g), higher end may also be referred to as a triple. There's some dovetailing, so not hard & fast rules at the tipping points.
> 
> Not aware of any 28g baskets.
> 
> ...


Never mind about a 28g basket.

Will you agree with me that what define a single or a double is the amount of ground coffee used as the input?

You said for example that anything between 11g and 22g is a double ( I said 14g, so I am within your range).

Double that and you get a range of 22g to 44g for an output that could be considered two doubles (I said 28g)

And that is all that count, no?

The amount of liquid in the cup is neither here nor there.

If the OP wants to extract two doubles, he could split the output from 28g of ground coffee as I suggested.


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## Has Bean (Sep 12, 2014)

This is far more complicated than it needs to be , lol

The ratio is the relationship between input and output in grams.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

Has Bean said:


> This is far more complicated than it needs to be , lol
> 
> The ratio is the relationship between input and output in grams.


Of course, but in spite of the title.of the thread the OP did not ask a question about ratio.

His question was whether he could extract Two double espresso from a basket, providing he uses a sufficient amount of ground coffee.

I believe the answer to that question to be "yes" and any discussion about ratio is entirely irrelevant.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

They would be two huge singles surely?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Wando64 said:


> Of course, but in spite of the title.of the thread the OP did not ask a question about ratio.
> 
> His question was whether he could extract Two double espresso from a basket, providing he uses a sufficient amount of ground coffee.
> 
> I believe the answer to that question to be "yes" and any discussion about ratio is entirely irrelevant.


Good luck with that. As you stated earlier 2 doubles would be 4x7g doses, 28g total...what basket would you use? In the first page of responses pulling 2 PF's worth, or using a 2 group machine was suggested. DFK's question about ratios was relevant, as he had/has/will have/did have & will again, a lever machine with limited water available in the group, this would limit the dose he could use & still realise the 60% ratio he was mooting.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

garydyke1 said:


> They would be two huge singles surely?


I can only assume you are pulling my legs.


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## Wando64 (Feb 28, 2011)

MWJB said:


> DFK's question about ratios was relevant, as he had/has/will have/did have & will again, a lever machine with limited water available in the group, this would limit the dose he could use & still realise the 60% ratio he was mooting.


How on Earth is anyone meant to know he has a Lever? 

Anyway, I know now. Thanks for clarifying the point.


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