# Struggling to dial in new bean



## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

I'm really struggling to dial in my new batch of Rio Magdalena and desperate for some pointers.

I was dialled in at 10 on my SGP on rave Italian Job. Started at that with RM but it pulled too quick so I tightened the grind a bit to 7 again too quick so came down to 4 which gave me a 17/34 after 25secs and I though brilliant.....

But I've used the same setting a few hours later and its too quick again and I think the puck below is burnt??

Don't think my tamp pressure has altered but I suppose it could have as that's the only thing that could've changed


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Make sure you purge your grinder each time you alter your grind settings


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Thecatlinux said:


> Make sure you purge your grinder each time you alter your grind settings


I single dose when I'm dialling in with my SGP, so weigh beans and put into empty hopper and grind until empty into the PF. When you adjust the grind setting, will it come into effect immediately, or does it need to be run for a few seconds to adjust?

I'm not sure that makes sense but hopefully you understand what I mean!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I think that may be an issue dialling in by single dosing , all manner of things ie popcorn effect ,basically beans bouncing about as they enter the grind chamber .

you are aiming for consistency, although I've not used your grinder single dosing in your grinder is going to be chaos

also you are probably not purging very well and I suspect the the first cup you pulled may have been made up with the existing beans being retained in the grind chamber


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## GingerBen (Sep 7, 2017)

Thecatlinux said:


> I think that may be an issue dialling in by single dosing , all manner of things ie popcorn effect ,basically beans bouncing about as they enter the grind chamber .
> 
> you are aiming for consistency, although I've not used your grinder single dosing in your grinder is going to be chaos
> 
> also you are probably not purging very well and I suspect the the first cup you pulled may have been made up with the existing beans being retained in the grind chamber


I'd agree with this having owned a SGP previously. They aren't designed for single dosing and trying to dial in in this manner would be chaos. Fill it up and try again but remember to purge a couple of seconds before filling the basket with the new grind. also you should ideally be running the grinder when adjusting finer, less important when going coarser.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

GingerBen said:


> I'd agree with this having owned a SGP previously. They aren't designed for single dosing and trying to dial in in this manner would be chaos. Fill it up and try again but remember to purge a couple of seconds before filling the basket with the new grind. also you should ideally be running the grinder when adjusting finer, less important when going coarser.


Oh okay, this is really helpful! I'll fill it up later and give it another go! In my attempt at being more efficient whilst dialling in, Ive probably been less efficient!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jonnycooper29 said:


> I single dose when I'm dialling in with my SGP, so weigh beans and put into empty hopper and grind until empty into the PF. When you adjust the grind setting, will it come into effect immediately, or does it need to be run for a few seconds to adjust?
> 
> I'm not sure that makes sense but hopefully you understand what I mean!


I use mine like that a lot and yes the change does come in immediately and is maintained on further shots. The output tends to drop after a setting change and then goes back to pretty close to what went in. I measured load and all were within +/- 0.1g. I see very little retention on the burrs so haven't been pulsing the grinder when I adjust but as some one mentions it should be pulsed when going finer. If the hopper is on it's a must do really even though Sage don't mention it. Even when setting coarser I always go too coarse and then finer - done without thinking about it to try and minimise any play in the burr setting mechanism or at least get that consistent.








However - first time in rather a lot of shots it decided to hold some back - nearly a gram. Maybe it's time I cleaned it. I've had it for some time now and never have, not even brushed the burrs over. The getting on for a gram came out on the next shot. Some ones law - the low shot was the first time I just used what came out directly into the portafilter.

John

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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Just to add to the fun - as well as the advice mentioned above. A whole host of things can mean you need to adjust the grind setting anyway. So you'll see if you have a very cold day and a hot day it'll change, as the weather warms up it can vary morning to afternoon. Also atmosphere in the kitchen (I don't mean frostiness from buying coffee gear though it might affect your concentration ;-)) - I mean if it's humid or whatever then that can affect it. Sometimes beans just want to play tricks on you - at least from what I see that's all I can put some changes down to...


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Sorry I can't resist. Stick with it though and I'm sure you'll get that AHA moment.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

jlarkin said:


> Sorry I can't resist. Stick with it though and I'm sure you'll get that AHA moment.


I keep thinking I've reached my AHA moment but it switches to an AHH moment for my next attempt!!


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

Is the burnt puck as a result of coming into contact with the shower screen perhaps? if it is that leaves me scratching my head as there's 17g in a 22g basket


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

cloughy said:


> Is the burnt puck as a result of coming into contact with the shower screen perhaps? if it is that leaves me scratching my head as there's 17g in a 22g basket


Did you knock it out onto the kitchen roll in the photo?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

jlarkin said:


> Just to add to the fun - as well as the advice mentioned above. A whole host of things can mean you need to adjust the grind setting anyway. So you'll see if you have a very cold day and a hot day it'll change, as the weather warms up it can vary morning to afternoon. Also atmosphere in the kitchen (I don't mean frostiness from buying coffee gear though it might affect your concentration ;-)) - I mean if it's humid or whatever then that can affect it. Sometimes beans just want to play tricks on you - at least from what I see that's all I can put some changes down to...


Output on a timer yes, even by the phase of the moon or if there is an r in the month - and depth of beans in the hopper at some point - grind - not that I have ever noticed. New batch of beans - maybe.

John

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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

What 22g basket. If 58mm sage 20 ?? gram basket I would have thought 17g would be a bit low - more than a bit. If you are toooooo low water is likely to rocket through.

On the bean I use in that I am currently at 18.8g and may find I'd be better off with more.

John

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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Did you knock it out onto the kitchen roll in the photo?


It's been turned over so the side you can see would have been facing upward in the PF


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

ajohn said:


> What 22g basket. If 58mm sage 20 ?? gram basket I would have thought 17g would be a bit low - more than a bit. If you are toooooo low water is likely to rocket through.
> 
> On the bean I use in that I am currently at 18.8g and may find I'd be better off with more.
> 
> ...


It's an IMS competition 16/22 basket


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

cloughy said:


> It's an IMS competition 16/22 basket


Did it knock out very easily, might it have been sucked up against the screen?


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Did it knock out very easily, might it have been sucked up against the screen?[/quote
> 
> Had to hit it fairly firmly to get out but it came out in one piece. Not sure, will check the screen next time


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

cloughy said:


> Had to hit it fairly firmly to get out but it came out in one piece. Not sure, will check the screen next time


If you're at the lower end of the dose weight, I'm confused as to how you are getting an imprint of the screen on the puck.

Have you checked head space with a coin?

You definitely weighed 17.0g into the basket (rather than into the grinder)?


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

MWJB said:


> If you're at the lower end of the dose weight, I'm confused as to how you are getting an imprint of the screen on the puck.
> 
> Have you checked head space with a coin?
> 
> You definitely weighed 17.0g into the basket (rather than into the grinder)?


Had me confused too, have ordered a new set of scales anyway which should come tomorrow. Good idea with the coin test will try this later this evening


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Even pushed against the shower screen the puck shouldn't burn like that. The shower screen is only heated by the water coming though it so I don't understand how that could happen. That looks like charcoal! Is the machine faulty?


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

BaggaZee said:


> Even pushed against the shower screen the puck shouldn't burn like that. The shower screen is only heated by the water coming though it so I don't understand how that could happen. That looks like charcoal! Is the machine faulty?


Hope not! not had it long


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## BaggaZee (Jun 19, 2015)

Maybe it's just odd lighting or something. If you pick the puck apart is it charred?


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

BaggaZee said:


> Maybe it's just odd lighting or something. If you pick the puck apart is it charred?


I thought it was, certainly a burnt smell


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

cloughy said:


> I thought it was, certainly a burnt smell


If Rio Madelena is a very dark roast, that puck would be about right, the coffee machine is unable to do that and the grinder would have to be almost smoking to have done the same thing.

There's not been much extraction from the grounds.

jon.


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

xpresso said:


> If Rio Madelena is a very dark roast, that puck would be about right, the coffee machine is unable to do that and the grinder would have to be almost smoking to have done the same thing.
> 
> There's not been much extraction from the grounds.
> 
> jon.


brill, thanks for the info. Sometimes feel out of my depth but then it's also part of the attraction trying to learn and get things right!


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

cloughy said:


> brill, thanks for the info. Sometimes feel out of my depth but then it's also part of the attraction trying to learn and get things right!


Just recently and still to be perfectly honest, I'm going through the learning curve and finding just how much difference there can be with different beans, either from different roasters and the various roasts.

I'm currently away (Have machine will travel) and found a reasonable acceptable bean 'To Me' that part way satisfies my tastes, to that end I am on my second kilo of the same sourced bean and only by that have I managed to find a sweet setting on my grinder leading to an acceptable brew.

The above suggests I was trying too many alternate beans which demanded different grinder settings before getting to grips with with my equipment and the tweaks required.

Jon.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

If the Rio Magdalena is from Foundry then 100% it's not a dark roast bean.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

How old are the beans? Foundry send them as soon as they've been roasted so they probably need resting a bit longer.


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

Nopapercup said:


> How old are the beans? Foundry send them as soon as they've been roasted so they probably need resting a bit longer.


Probably about 8 days old, to be fair I had some better results today, went up to 18g and got 36g in 28secs. Not sure whether new grouphead plate played a part or not but it certainly comes out of the shower screen quicker


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

cloughy said:


> Probably about 8 days old, to be fair I had some better results today, went up to 18g and got 36g in 28secs. Not sure whether new grouphead plate played a part or not but it certainly comes out of the shower screen quicker


I've had issues trying to use beans for espresso that are too fresh and I bet this is your problem. For me even 8 days is too fresh, I think beans start coming good 12-15 days post roast.


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Before using the Magdelena beans what did you have through the grinder and did you purge/clear the grinder of previous grind ?.

Jon.


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

xpresso said:


> Before using the Magdelena beans what did you have through the grinder and did you purge/clear the grinder of previous grind ?.
> 
> Jon.


It had Rave Italian Job through before, made sure it was clear and cleaned the burrs


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

7 days rest is a good general rule of thumb for espresso. The taste may suitably change after longer periods but I am not sure your additional resting is impacting on variable extraction.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

cloughy said:


> It had Rave Italian Job through before, made sure it was clear and cleaned the burrs


You are more than likely going from one end of the roast spectrum and taste spectrum to the other , so adjustments to dial in wouldn't have been " subtle" or minimal.


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> 7 days rest is a good general rule of thumb for espresso. The taste may suitably change after longer periods but I am not sure your additional resting is impacting on variable extraction.


For some reason under 10 days I find the extraction and taste is all over the place. This could be due to me being at altitude.


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

Saw on another thread that the Aldi stuff was ok and that would be more settled due an older roasting date. Getting much better extractions with their italian blend. Have put the Rio away for a while and will try this stuff for a bit until the Rio settles a bit more. Thanks all


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

cloughy said:


> Saw on another thread that the Aldi stuff was ok and that would be more settled due an older roasting date. Getting much better extractions with their italian blend. Have put the Rio away for a while and will try this stuff for a bit until the Rio settles a bit more. Thanks all


I can concur with the ALDI beans, the pack we tried called Alcafe Columbian, very dark and oily AND very similar to the current kilo bag of Meo Espresso we are working through, satisfying tasty with no hint of bitterness with a reasonably stable grinder setting.

Jon.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Neglecting burnt I would have suggested adding say 1/2g at a time more to that size of basket and see what that did. The coin test wouldn't be a bad idea as an alternative as I suspect you are under filling too much.

Part of the reason for that is seeing 16 to 22g - Some of that will depend on the machine it's fitted to. Also I can't see how anyone can really produce a basket that can work well over that big a range.

John

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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

ajohn said:


> Neglecting burnt I would have suggested adding say 1/2g at a time more to that size of basket and see what that did. The coin test wouldn't be a bad idea as an alternative as I suspect you are under filling too much.
> 
> Part of the reason for that is seeing 16 to 22g - Some of that will depend on the machine it's fitted to. Also I can't see how anyone can really produce a basket that can work well over that big a range.
> 
> ...


Think you're right, have only just today picked up some 0.1g scales so I could have been lower end of 17g as well. Up to 18g now and am getting better results together with an older bean. My distribution and tamping needs improvement now as I'm getting alot of channeling!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

xpresso said:


> I can concur with the ALDI beans, the pack we tried called Alcafe Columbian, very dark and oily AND very similar to the current kilo bag of Meo Espresso we are working through, satisfying tasty with no hint of bitterness with a reasonably stable grinder setting.
> 
> Jon.


What or who are Meo Espresso?


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## xpresso (Jan 16, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> What or who are Meo Espresso?


Being slightly remote at the moment and given a taster...........

https://www.meo.fr/default/cafe-en-grains.html

We purchased a kilo of their espresso variety and it's acceptable pitted against several other 'Mass produced' tried up to press

Jon.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

I've been dialling in rave Italian job and would love some pointers!

I pulled a 17g in->30g out shot in 39s, it tasted slightly sour, tangy and a bit fruity.

Then tried 17g in->51g out shot in 45s with the same grind setting. It tasted a lot smoother, more balanced with a hint of chocolate and definitely more drinkable!

It takes 12/13 seconds for it to start pouring, so I feel if I go finer, it'll start choking it, so could I lower my dosage to 16g to get a smaller shot but more balanced, I.e the same flavour as the 51g shot with the same grind but in roughly 35g?

Cheers!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonnycooper29 said:


> I've been dialling in rave Italian job and would love some pointers!
> 
> I pulled a 17g in->30g out shot in 39s, it tasted slightly sour, tangy and a bit fruity.
> 
> ...


17:51g is 1:3 so equivalent with a 16g dose would be 16:48g. Why is a 48-61g shot undesirable?

Be aware that at some point as you go lower in dose weight, extraction will start to drop again.

For now, maybe try a little finer at 17g, see if you can drop the output a tad?


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

MWJB said:


> 17:51g is 1:3 so equivalent with a 16g dose would be 16:48g. Why is a 48-61g shot undesirable?
> 
> Be aware that at some point as you go lower in dose weight, extraction will start to drop again.
> 
> For now, maybe try a little finer at 17g, see if you can drop the output a tad?


This might seem silly but the longer shot doesn't leave as much room for milk in my cup (it's quite a small latte/cappuccino one) when I have a flat white! And these beans have quite a lot of volume to them with the crema!

So ideally I'd want to pull a more concentrated, smaller shot with the same balanced flavour.

I'll try and go one notch finer like you say and see how that goes!


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

jonnycooper29 said:


> This might seem silly but the longer shot doesn't leave as much room for milk in my cup (it's quite a small latte/cappuccino one) when I have a flat white! And these beans have quite a lot of volume to them with the crema!
> 
> So ideally I'd want to pull a more concentrated, smaller shot with the same balanced flavour.
> 
> I'll try and go one notch finer like you say and see how that goes!


How old are the Italian Job beans? I got my best extractions after they were 2 weeks old (was on grind setting 10 on the SGP)


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

cloughy said:


> How old are the Italian Job beans? I got my best extractions after they were 2 weeks old (was on grind setting 10 on the SGP)


They're bang on 2 weeks old now! I'm going down to setting 13, I guess the machines could differ in settings though.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jonnycooper29 said:


> They're bang on 2 weeks old now! I'm going down to setting 13, I guess the machines could differ in settings though.


If you want a smaller more concentrated shot , then reduce your brew ratio and tighten the grind....


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

MWJB said:


> For now, maybe try a little finer at 17g, see if you can drop the output a tad?


I tried to go one notch finer on my SGP, purged the grinder and pulled my shot as normal.. it took ~15 seconds to start getting drips out, and 60s to get 30g out of 17g dose.. it was also undrinkable!

This is what starts to confuse me, as the only time I've got a drinkable shot from these beans is a couple of grind settings up and pulling 17g->51g, surely it's capable of a tighter grind with a smaller brew ratio?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonnycooper29 said:


> I tried to go one notch finer on my SGP, purged the grinder and pulled my shot as normal.. it took ~15 seconds to start getting drips out, and 60s to get 30g out of 17g dose.. it was also undrinkable!
> 
> This is what starts to confuse me, as the only time I've got a drinkable shot from these beans is a couple of grind settings up and pulling 17g->51g, surely it's capable of a tighter grind with a smaller brew ratio?


Why did you stop at 30g out, that's a ratio of less than 1:2? Undrinkable how (sour, chewy, claggy)?

There is no reason why you should always be able to extract properly at 1:2.

Do you have scope to updose a little, say 18 or 19g & aim ~1:2.5 maybe?


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## cloughy (Apr 11, 2018)

jonnycooper29 said:


> I tried to go one notch finer on my SGP, purged the grinder and pulled my shot as normal.. it took ~15 seconds to start getting drips out, and 60s to get 30g out of 17g dose.. it was also undrinkable!
> 
> This is what starts to confuse me, as the only time I've got a drinkable shot from these beans is a couple of grind settings up and pulling 17g->51g, surely it's capable of a tighter grind with a smaller brew ratio?


Is your grouphead clear? 15secs to start seeing output sounds like a problem i had.....as someone advised me in another thread you might want to measure water output in grams over 30/60sec which you can compare with other DTP owners

Once I cleaned my grouphead and shower plate it was much better. Not saying this is your issue but something to consider.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Why did you stop at 30g out, that's a ratio of less than 1:2? Undrinkable how (sour, chewy, claggy)?
> 
> There is no reason why you should always be able to extract properly at 1:2.
> 
> Do you have scope to updose a little, say 18 or 19g & aim ~1:2.5 maybe?


I forgot to mention, the DTP will auto stop at 60 seconds or nearabouts, and it happened to be at ~30g!

I can try and dose a bit more and see where that leaves me, but I think this grind setting is way too fine, it's absolute tiny streams coming out for until ~25 seconds, almost nothing at all!


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

cloughy said:


> Is your grouphead clear? 15secs to start seeing output sounds like a problem i had.....as someone advised me in another thread you might want to measure water output in grams over 30/60sec which you can compare with other DTP owners
> 
> Once I cleaned my grouphead and shower plate it was much better. Not saying this is your issue but something to consider.


Thanks, I actually remove the shower screen/plate weekly, and had done so yesterday evening! Also, It only takes this long when I have the grind set to a finer setting, so I don't think it's a machine issue.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jonnycooper29 said:


> I forgot to mention, the DTP will auto stop at 60 seconds or nearabouts, and it happened to be at ~30g!
> 
> I can try and dose a bit more and see where that leaves me, but I think this grind setting is way too fine, it's absolute tiny streams coming out for until ~25 seconds, almost nothing at all!


Im lost if the shot time is over 60 seconds than dosing more ( and doing nothing else ) will increase the shot time .

Dose needs to be appropriate to baskets and in line with the amount of espresso you need to make. Not used to control " shot time " unless you have run out of wiggle rom on your grinder.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonnycooper29 said:


> I forgot to mention, the DTP will auto stop at 60 seconds or nearabouts, and it happened to be at ~30g!
> 
> I can try and dose a bit more and see where that leaves me, but I think this grind setting is way too fine, it's absolute tiny streams coming out for until ~25 seconds, almost nothing at all!


Then grind a little coarser. The bigger dose will present more resistance at the same grind, at 17g you might be at the lower end of dose for a good extraction, the basket holds 18-20g fairly comfortably. If you dose up a little & grind a little coarser you may be able to get a decent extraction at a shorter ratio (though I think a good shot at 1:3 is perfectly realistic).

If you drop the dose from 17g you are likely to have to pull shots longer to extract, not shorter.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Then grind a little coarser. The bigger dose will present more resistance at the same grind, at 17g you might be at the lower end of dose for a good extraction, the basket holds 18-20g fairly comfortably. If you dose up a little & grind a little coarser you may be able to get a decent extraction at a shorter ratio (though I think a good shot at 1:3 is perfectly realistic).


Ok I think I understand.. so if I go back to the grind setting in which I was getting a decent shot at 1:3 with 17g dosage, I might be able to get a shorter ratio if I up the dosage slightly, as I'll be extracting more?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jonnycooper29 said:


> Ok I think I understand.. so if I go back to the grind setting in which I was getting a decent shot at 1:3 with 17g dosage, I might be able to get a shorter ratio if I up the dosage slightly, as I'll be extracting more?


Stick to a dose, set a brew ratio adjust the grind accordingly. Example 17g into 30g say in 25-40 seconds.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Stick to a dose, set a brew ratio adjust the grind accordingly. Example 17g into 30g say in 25-40 seconds.


17g of a medium roast is a fairly light dose for these baskets.


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Stick to a dose, set a brew ratio adjust the grind accordingly. Example 17g into 30g say in 25-40 seconds.


This is getting a tad confusing, everyone is suggesting different approaches I guess I'll try one approach and if it doesn't work for me, I'll try someone else's!

I guess they suit different people..


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## jonnycooper29 (Apr 11, 2018)

Mrboots2u said:


> Stick to a dose, set a brew ratio adjust the grind accordingly. Example 17g into 30g say in 25-40 seconds.


This is getting a tad confusing, everyone is suggesting different approaches I guess I'll try one approach and if it doesn't work for me, I'll try someone else's!

I guess they suit different people..


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jonnycooper29 said:


> This is getting a tad confusing, everyone is suggesting different approaches I guess I'll try one approach and if it doesn't work for me, I'll try someone else's!
> 
> I guess they suit different people..


Not really, it is the same approach...

1 Dose appropriately.

2 Brew to your ratio.

3 Adjust grind to make it taste nice.

4 Make a note of the shot time.

5 If your ratio does not produce tasty coffee the majority of the time, change it & repeat point 2 onwards.

The numbers might vary depending on basket size, grinder, prep, tamper fit etc, but the mechanism is the same.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MWJB said:


> 17g of a medium roast is a fairly light dose for these baskets.


It was just an arbitrary figure i pulled as an example , as opposed to a " do this brew ratio "


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

Sometimes it's worth making things super easy for yourself to begin with. Get the grinder somewhere close and keep the dose the same whilst gradually extracting more from the coffee by running more water through the puck. Forget about time for now. Find the optimum dose for your basket and try maybe 18g to 25g, 32, 38g and see which you like best. Use the shot time as a marker once you find something you like as you can get good coffee from say 20-50 seconds.

Extracting more from smaller yields or reducing the shot volume will require that you tighten up on your grind.


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