# Basket size and dose weight



## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

This is probably going to seem like a silly question.

Almost every video tutorial on the internet for "the perfect espresso" shows guys in cafes and at home levelling off the grinds to the rim of their double basket . They use a knife, their finger, WDT, all kinds, but at the end of the day the grinds are level with the the rim prior to tamping.

A standard double shot is 14g, but if I level off to the rim then I get more like 20/21g. So I don't level off. I weigh, grind, and distribute the grinds below the rim, making sure I'm close to 14g. It's not a triple basket, it's a double. I'm not grinding too fine. I don't believe I'm doing anything wrong.

So are all these cafes around the world are over-dosing their shots? Or am I doing something incorrectly?


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## DavidS (Apr 8, 2010)

Most places do over dose. The faema baskets at my work hold at least 16g+ of coffee. I obviously don't have time to weigh coffee between shots. Not to mention, I think an over dosed shot tastes better...


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

If so, I think it's amazing that the cafe managers don't do something about it. That's a 50% overdose, and it means that a cafe would spend £18000 p.a. on beans when they should only be spending £12000... £6k straight out of the owners pocket.

I can understand the practicalities of not wanting to weight shots, but why wouldn't a double basket just be made smaller so it would be closer to 14g when levelled?

Alternatively, why doesn't the industry stop talking about 7g and 14g shots if the real standard is 10g and 20g?


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

For me the overfill and level off is purely for consistancy and to create as perfect as possible bed of coffee to tamp. Each bean is going to have differing volume per set weight anyway.


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## Fran (Dec 27, 2010)

I think the vast majority of shops use a grinder with a doser, which will be tuned to give 7/14g. Therefore, standard weighs. Shops which fill the PF and level are probably know what they're doing, and are aware of the cost/quality trade-off.


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

MikeHag said:


> This is probably going to seem like a silly question.


It certainly isn't. This is something that has perplexed me for some time, as I am convinced that my shot-to-shot quality and consistency has improved immeasurably since I started to weigh each dose. (I weigh the beans prior to grind) I'm convinced that the same degree of uniformity is impossible to attain in the fill-and-level technique - yet it seems to be the one favoured in competition.

That said, I'll vary the weight to suit the bean I'm using. If it's coming out too bland, I'll up the dose (but coarsen the grind to keep the delivery time the same). If it's too coarse, I'll reduce the dose (and make the grind finer). Once I'm happy, I'll just repeat that weight, with very minor tweaking of the grinder to compensate for atmospherics.

Works for me. My doses are between 14 and 16 dependent on the bean.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

MikeHag said:


> A standard double shot is 14g...


That certainly used to be the mantra but is no longer a convention that is blindly followed

Each coffee, grinder and machine pairing will have a sweet spot

Most shots I pull have dose weights of approx 17.5g for Gaggia Classics, 16.5 for Rancilio Silvia and some of the smaller basket Delonghi, Krups and Ascaso machines will not take anything more than 15/16g, with an ideal dose being in the 14g range

I'm normally +/- 2g of those figures when working on La Marzocco and Cimbali's too

Bean size, density and moisture content all play with the total content too

Regarding dosing and leveling to the rim. For most home machines this gets you in the ballpark pretty easily and grind size can then be adjusted.

For competition this helps with speed and consistency of process (with the latter scoring points)

Many cafes that I visit and train underdose their shots before being retrained


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

This is a vague area. Last month I was using Hasbean beans exclusively and I had to dose around 18g to fill my Silvia double basket. Then this week I went back to coffeebeanshop beans and without changing the grind setting more than a few mm to dial in I can only fit 15.5g in the same basket and it's always the same between these two roasters. I'm not bothered much but if it takes a lot to fill your basket try giving a different roaster a go.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Sorry to link to another forum, but I've found an interesting 'ready made' discussion about this on Home Barista. Updosing does seem to be the norm now, and the thread discusses some of the potential reasons

http://www.home-barista.com/tips/is-overdosing-new-standard-t17090.html


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

I think one of the most telling contributions to that thread comes from Jim Shulman - for whom I have developed a very healthy respect - when he talks about how baskets matter - the size of the holes, the headspace and their shape. In many ways it echoes what Glenn has been saying earlier in this thread.

It goes to show that making good espresso is largely an empirical matter - something that has to be determined by experiment rather than applying theory. And I think that this is invariably the case in any field that deals with aesthetics rather than pure science - the best is achieved by an expert operator and 'feel' rather than an entirely scientific approach. As Jim himself says in relation to one issue: "This is easy to confirm in blind tasting, but I have no suggestion why it is so."

Happily, most of my experiments are drinkable!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Given the various different volumes and weights used with different beans by different people wanting to achieve different results, I do wonder why there aren't a wider range of basket sizes available rather than just single, double and triple. Seems to me that if I'm using a bean that works well for me at 17g, I should be able to use a basket that levels off at 17g with my chosen grind. Baristas would have one extra element of control if they could pick from 10 basket sizes.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

You won't be surprised to learn that baskets designed for various weights are now available (in the US at least)

Have a read of pages 74 onwards of the Apr-May Barista Magazine (*link here*) for a whole lot more information


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## vintagecigarman (Aug 10, 2009)

Oh NO! Another variable! Just when I'm getting to grips with weight, grind, tamp, temperature, volume, time! ;>)))


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## DonRJ (Apr 3, 2010)

La La LA LA, I``m not listening, please oh great god of OCDness don`t make me do it. I have five filter baskets already and I`m trying to give baby Nemo a good home as well as repair the nice OAP`s central heating up the road so she avoids being ripped off by pirates. Well what would you do instead of being weddinged to bits.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

MikeHag said:


> This is probably going to seem like a silly question.
> 
> Almost every video tutorial on the internet for "the perfect espresso" shows guys in cafes and at home levelling off the grinds to the rim of their double basket . They use a knife, their finger, WDT, all kinds, but at the end of the day the grinds are level with the the rim prior to tamping.
> 
> ...


 Here i am, looking at my Gaggia with its 14g basket, watching everyone on the internet filling them to the brim, and yet when i do that, i get a 17-18g dose and a choked shot...

It's a great question and some good answers.

However, i am looking for efficiency and to reduce my caffeine intake a small bit :classic_wacko:

To this end, i am finding i need to grind quite fine to get the shot length for 14g over 20s.

I am looking at puck headspace at the moment as well, but its a little unclear why this is important as long as you are not restricting the puck swell.


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