# espresso perception by coffee non-geeks (ie. normal people)



## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I've paid MacIntyre Coffee a visit on Saturday and for the first time tried an EK based shot from the Modbar machine (very impressive piece of kit). It tasted more like a brewed shot rather than espresso (I think this is something quite often mentioned about the EK) and in general very different to a normal espresso shot (no idea what brew ratios Alex is using). Overall it quite quite enjoyable, but not necessarily my type of shot, although I have to say it smelled well awesome. Based on the smell my other half decided to give it a try...and had to spit it out almost straight away saying "this is disgusting and sour, how can you drink this?. Curious if anyone of you ever had a similar experience with someone completely not coffee obsessed?

A while ago I've watched a short clip by Conan O'Brien in which his producer critiques third-wave cafes of pulling shots which are undrinkable, yet something they've never tried before, thus claiming it to be the best there is:






Now the above is of course taking a p*ss to some extent, but makes you wonder how much of our preferences are being moulder by the trends. I used to hate light roasted coffee, but I'm sure my taste buds got used to it in a way and I can easily accept shots now which in the past would've landed straight in the sink. My mum can't stand espresso, even plain old Italian way of espresso, it's just too much for her taste-wise and I'm sure if I was to serve her a light roasted bean she would spit it out straight away just like my missus did.

So, how come normal people hate what we drink with such a passion? I know we all have our preference when it comes to food, but this seems a bit severe do you think? I don't like certain types of cheese for example, but I can still eat them without spitting it out straight away.

T.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Very good question. As for the answer - Not a clue. Curious to read people's thoughts on this though.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I am off the opinion that There is no universal right or wrong with preference for coffee. Shades of grey yes

Perhaps your partner's taste buds and preference are on the polar opposite to what she was served in the cafe .. My partner doesn't like coffee , as she has had to many prior experiences of it tasting horrid and bitter .

Some people love thickness and mouthfeel , some don't, for example my brain cant handle super string gloopy espresso .

Many years ago ( pre geek ) i used to equate a well made coffee or french press with smelling " coffee like " and being super strong , to the point where i had to add sugar to it - i think if i had been served a ek made espresso i would have not understood it as being what i thought coffee was like..


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

It's an interesting one. Are there any parallels with other drink products? I suppose someone who only ever drank Tennants would find real-ales disgusting?

I guess it's a case of being open minded and having an open palate to try things.

I guess my family are a strange bunch when it comes to coffee:

Grandparents will only drink instant. No interest in anything real.

My mum always moans about coffee being 'weak' yet says espresso/americano etc. is too strong. I have her on the cusp of drinking filter black when I make it, but otherwise she wants flat whites with a coffee that punches through the milk. Dad drinks espresso or americano. Both my parents find Cafe Nero acceptable though they very much enjoyed sampling the wares at the coffee festival and said that even to their untrained palate it was clear the coffee was of a totally different quality level.

Brother in law drinks espresso from pre-ground out of a pressurised Delonghi. Go to this cafe, he'll tell me, you'll enjoy the coffee there. He bases this on the gear they have, but knows nothing of the bean they are serving. (It might be a Black Eagle and a Mythos, but that bean is still commodity). This isn't his fault, I think it just highlights the fact that so many people aren't aware of 'third wave coffee'

Wife loves the smell of coffee, would love for us to run a speciality shop, but she doesn't like the taste of it.

As far as eKspresso goes: It's certainly put on a pedestal. I had one this morning. It's only the second I think I've ever had so I probably need more time to appreciate it, but to me, I don't really see a strong difference between it and well made 'normal' espresso other than that there is more of it? I know, burn the witch etc. Maybe I'm missing something.



Mrboots2u said:


> Many years ago ( pre geek ) i used to equate a well made coffee or french press with smelling " coffee like " and being super strong , to the point where i had to add sugar to it - i think if i had been served a ek made espresso i would have not understood it as being what i thought coffee was like..


I was the exact same. Espresso was the strong bitter drink you had at the end of a meal at a restaurant. My palate quite enjoyed it. If you'd served me something light and fruity I would probably have spat it out. Now I'm the complete opposite.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Good call @risky Beer to craft beer would be a food comparison and might get similar response e


----------



## risky (May 11, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Good call @risky Beer to craft beer would be a food comparison and might get similar response e


Been told many a time 'Tennants son, that's the best pint in the world'. Now I'm not hating on Tennants, there's a time and a place for it, but to me that's akin to saying that Tesco's French Roast Strength 5 pre-ground is cup of excellence.


----------



## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I think our expectations will always be moulded by "something" and stuff is always changing. If everybody did lighter (for ease of description, I'm dating lighter, maybe not traditional Italian style say) roast traditionally then maybe the new wave would be for darker?

I have violent, not medical, reactions to a couple of foodstuffs but generally I'd like to think I'd try most things, it's one of those things that makes life interesting .

Also there are more things going on than we yet understand, such as http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sensation-of-taste-is-built-into-brain/


----------



## simontc (May 21, 2014)

Tolerances build up and more depth of flavour is needed to satiate desires...


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I'm with you on that. My parallel was going to be Guinness - an acquired taste. First pint I had was vile, but being 18 and given free beer by a hot Guinness rep meant me and my mate struggled on valiantly. You grow to like it. I still enjoy Guinness now (more interesting beers notwithstanding). Same with whisky. Or cheese. I was firmly in the "choc and nut" camp when I started on home espresso but have drifted lighter as my taste buds became accustomed to it. I like a wide range of brew ratios with espresso but I do love the thick gloopy shots. However it is pretty intense and for a non-espresso head it's a bit like jumping in at the deep end. But lob it in an 8oz Acme with some microfoam and everyone says "mmmm much better than Costa!" (LOL!)


----------



## simontc (May 21, 2014)

Its also an understanding that coffee isn't just coffee. Learning about different beans, processes, roast levels and brewing methods offers a wide range of drinks that can be enjoyed in so many ways/moments etc. Sometimes id kill for a thick, sludgey, funk fest of a spro and sometimes I'll opt for a tealike delicacy in a filter. Back to the beer thing; sometimes a deep porter and sometimes a spritzy pale ale.


----------



## simontc (May 21, 2014)

And the examples can continue ad infinitum


----------



## frandavi99 (Jun 8, 2014)

I have no theory to offer but I've largely given up trying to introduce family members and friends to the sort of coffee we all enjoy. They usually tell me it's bitter... I think that's the only word they know to describe differences in the taste of coffee.

Luckily my wife shares my views just enough to allow me to pursue it


----------



## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Is it not maybe simply that most "normal" people find straight espresso too strong? The majority dilute espresso with milk and/or water.

I know that i like espresso type coffee at lower than typical strength which i think is between 8-11% TDS. Anytime i've tried straight espresso from a speciality coffee cafe i've found it unpalatable. I like the strength but not necessarily the taste from an "Italian" type shot (7g ish) - typically around 3.5% TDS.

Maybe the pallette has to acclimatise before getting to like stronger shots? Maybe strength gets confused with "bitter"?


----------



## insatiableOne (Jul 29, 2015)

I feel an issue that I get here.

Me: I walk into cafe'

Barista: What would you like

Me: Espresso please...as long as it is not Sumatra.

Barista: Here..$2.00 ........ How do you like it!?

Me: the shot was lovely.. the bean not so good..What is it??

Barista: oh, our Espresso is Sumatra! .. we roast it light..blah, blah,

This is an ongoing issue here at a lot of shops unfortunately. I have found most people, at least from my experience either love or loathe Sumatra. Shame the twit Barista didn't listen or I might have gotten a French press.

Find that most people do not like espresso, even though I hear.." I like my coffee strong" ..really? do you now, let us test this theory then, shall we? Their first opinion is ooh it's sour, then later find out they drink cappuccinos_

I was another one that liked DARK roasts, then later changed my flavour while roasting my own beans. Seems that what I thought I liked was not pleasant at all. Gifted beans from friends that I would have never bought my self were perhaps some of the most enjoyed, also different bean profiles roasted to the bean itself.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Yeah not a great fan of Sumatran or Java coffee .

Strength is a funny one .

Tds of nominal Ek shots for me is around 8-9 tds . So plenty stronger than a filter coffee .

Again mouthfeel doesn't do a lot for me . By this i mean , it's not the thing I look for in an extraction Or cup to define my preference . For others that gloppy look and mouthfeel defines preference


----------



## insatiableOne (Jul 29, 2015)

You know I have to say, If I can get that buttery smooth texture, I know I'm going in the right direction.

I do like thicker espresso, gloopy though eh?


----------



## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> Yeah not a great fan of Sumatran or Java coffee .
> 
> Strength is a funny one .
> 
> ...


Have you always naturally liked 8-10 TDS shots or has it been a preference established over time? I find at these strengths the flavours are masked. (Never had an EK shot though). I can usually detect sweetness or bitterness (or both). I prefer light fruity roasts and would be looking to taste sweetness & fruit in the drink. I generally go for brewed if it's an option when in a cafe. Guess i could ask for the espresso in a bigger cup and some water on the side to dilute (probably frowned upon...)

There doesn't seem to be many people making single (7g ish) shots? Are they more trouble to make than a double?


----------



## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I've heard many times that espresso isn't something you like straight away, you have to learn to like it which I personally find really odd. People learn to like cigarettes as well, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's something positive, I wonder if this is in a way similar to espresso? I'm guessing your brain must simply get used to something if it's repeated for a long time, I mean people get used to crappola Costa coffee and they seriously like it at some point, is it the same with super sourish light roasted blends? I remember SQM released a super bright fruity blend a while ago and I tried it once at Prufrock, damn it was undrinkable, it wasn't fruity in any way, just a load of lemon and face twisting notes. It's funny cause we take the p*ss out of people who like charcoal like coffees, yet quite often drink some sourish crap ourselves only because it was released as a limited amount from a reputable roaster. If taste preference is indeed something we can develop over time who are we to say "proper" light roasted coffee is better than super dark roasted stuff?

I guess I simply don't buy the whole "your pallate is simply not used to these lighter coffees because you drank darker ones all your life", they can quite easily throw the same argument in your face and I bet you wouldn't like it.

As for singles I find it annoying that most cafes don't serve these, as for me they taste different to a double split in half, it's two different animals imho.

T.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm not the biggest fan of espresso, but I love a flat white... with a sugar.

Tastes change so much tho, I never liked beer when I first drank it as a 16 year old, didnt like wine, olives, smelly cheese, now they are some of lifes delicacies and I am no longer the biggest fan of penny sweets.


----------



## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dsc said:


> I've heard many times that espresso isn't something you like straight away, you have to learn to like it which I personally find really odd. People learn to like cigarettes as well, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's something positive, I wonder if this is in a way similar to espresso? I'm guessing your brain must simply get used to something if it's repeated for a long time, I mean people get used to crappola Costa coffee and they seriously like it at some point, is it the same with super sourish light roasted blends? I remember SQM released a super bright fruity blend a while ago and I tried it once at Prufrock, damn it was undrinkable, it wasn't fruity in any way, just a load of lemon and face twisting notes. It's funny cause we take the p*ss out of people who like charcoal like coffees, yet quite often drink some sourish crap ourselves only because it was released as a limited amount from a reputable roaster. If taste preference is indeed something we can develop over time who are we to say "proper" light roasted coffee is better than super dark roasted stuff?
> 
> I guess I simply don't buy the whole "your pallate is simply not used to these lighter coffees because you drank darker ones all your life", they can quite easily throw the same argument in your face and I bet you wouldn't like it.
> 
> ...


"Super sour" doesn't sound like what the coffee is supposed to taste like, sounds like a brewing defect.

I don't take the piss out of anyone for liking darker roasted coffee, to be honest I don't recall any instances of this...plenty the other way round though.


----------



## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

The main parameter i'm looking for in a coffee is sweetness regardless of roast. I don't like sour fruity coffee either (but that could be user error in the making of it). I don't like "roasty" flavours in coffee. But if it's got natural sweetness then it's usually quite drinkable.


----------



## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

dsc said:


> I've heard many times that espresso isn't something you like straight away, you have to learn to like it which I personally find really odd.
> 
> T.


This, i hated espresso, even after spending money on the classic and grinder, now with better espresso and time i enjoy it, i even ask for an espresso and milk based drink when i go into a cafe just to see what the drink is like from both ends...


----------



## insatiableOne (Jul 29, 2015)

Step21 said:


> The main parameter i'm looking for in a coffee is sweetness regardless of roast. I don't like sour fruity coffee either (but that could be user error in the making of it). I don't like "roasty" flavours in coffee. But if it's got natural sweetness then it's usually quite drinkable.


I have found that Natural or grade 4 beans give you the taste you are after. (as long as it is the profile you desire)

The washed, grade 1 & up have that off taste after roasted. (harder to get away with)

That may be just my perception.


----------



## supbro (Apr 7, 2015)

I was surprised by how well people I know took to my coffee, however I made it. Even my nan who has drunk either instant or Costa rubbish can drink it without milk (I do suggest to people to at least try without adding anything). This is with brewed coffee though, I have a feeling if it was espresso it'd be far too strong for them.

The key is the smell. When you've got blueberries wafting through the house then people won't be put off


----------



## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

I found that smell is never really an issue with most people, even the opposite, it attracts people to coffee. The problem is normally the first full punch of espresso, it's simply too much (intense wise) for some imho.

T.


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

dsc said:


> I found that smell is never really an issue with most people, even the opposite, it attracts people to coffee. The problem is normally the first full punch of espresso, it's simply too much (intense wise) for some imho.
> 
> T.


Still is for me!

Love a milk based drink, cant quite enjoy an espresso.


----------



## pcdoc (Dec 4, 2015)

Yep me too. I love espresso as long as its added to milk


----------



## CallumT (Aug 23, 2013)

I found this painful to watch, funny at the same time though.

Espresso is a tough one, I'm really picky with it which generally leaves me on the hate side of the relationship and always striving for a better brew.


----------

