# Clever versus V60



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Can the aficionados explain if there is a great deal of difference between these two methods? I have a Clever but used a V60 last night and both seem relatively faff free to use. The Clever I have (courtesy of MWJB) has a Swiss filter and is marked l, presumably for large. It make one mug which is my preferred route anyway.

DO they both use the same grind type, and if anyone could confirm what they are I would appreciate it!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Clever is an immersion brewer, all the water & coffee sit together until you decide to drop the beverage out. This helps limit extraction (especially water in 1st), so long steeps & a fine grind (coarse espresso, maybe a bit coarser) can still come out good (if the drink is still hot enough to drink). However, you can brew as short & as coarse as you like, if you like the result & can repeat it...but I can't help you with that. Preferable for me with darker roasts.

V60 I'd grind coarser (medium drip to 'as coarse as you can & still enjoy' - for coarse I gently pour 20g of brew water every 20s & tighten the grind if weak), extraction is more brute force as you are replacing the liquid in the slurry with hot, clean water. When dialled in, very consistent...if you don't have the patience to dial in & are likely to flit about with differing weights & grind settings all the time, give it a miss. Preferable for me with lighter roasts. Needs a gooseneck.

There are other drip brewers in the world though, a Melitta cone (genuine with 1 hole) is more self regulating than a V60, you can brew with a simplified method (brewer controls flow rate, whereas you control it on V60), you can use a normal kettle too (best if it has a low, safe fill level & you can preweigh brew water). Can use similar grind to Clever (coarse end of espresso/fine drip/manual brew) with a normal kettle.

Really, all manual brew methods have a similar level of faff (weigh coffee, weigh water, select grind) vs time when you balance things out. Might not be a machine doing the brewing, but you still need to take similar care as when you make espresso....and the brewed will take longer.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

many ta's @MWJB

I do not mid faff but there again there is faff and faff! I enjoy trying to understand the mechanics behind things which is why I ask questions. I will play around with the Clever a bit before buying anything else


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## the_partisan (Feb 29, 2016)

V60 can give you a well extracted and clean cup in under 3 minutes, but it can hard to be consistent with until you dial in your recipe. There's several concerns such as bloom time, level of agitation, flow rate etc that you need to be attentive to. In my experience it also tends to highlight things such as roast defects or if you're not using good water for coffee. If you're using a reasonable recipe and grind size though you should be fine.

Clever would need a finer grind and a much longer brew (I would start with 15 min and up) for similar strength brew but would be a lot easier to be consistent with and probably would be easier to achieve a more balanced brew.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I use a clever because I don't have a decent kettle.

Plus I like it because it's fairly faff free and most Important Idiot proof.


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## salty (Mar 7, 2017)

I also like the clever for faff free filter at work and when I'm in a rush in the morning before I drive to work. But I like the V60 when I have more time and it's interesting comparing the results from two brewing methods and the same beans.


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

the_partisan said:


> V60 can give you a well extracted and clean cup in under 3 minutes, but it can hard to be consistent with until you dial in your recipe. There's several concerns such as bloom time, level of agitation, flow rate etc that you need to be attentive to. In my experience it also tends to highlight things such as roast defects or if you're not using good water for coffee. If you're using a reasonable recipe and grind size though you should be fine.
> 
> Clever would need a finer grind and a much longer brew (I would start with 15 min and up) for similar strength brew but would be a lot easier to be consistent with and probably would be easier to achieve a more balanced brew.


15 mins brew time in a clever? :S That sounds quite abnormal. Any?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

HBLP said:


> 15 mins brew time in a clever? :S That sounds quite abnormal. Any?


Yes, it is a bit short, I normally go 35min  Remember to preheat the cups.

Anything over 5 can produce a drinkable cup from darker, fine ground coffee. It will be a low extraction, but darker roasts can take that better than light. I want my Clever to taste like the coffee brewed when I brew it any other way, I don't want to taste the Clever Dripper.

There's not really any 'normal', the brewer draws down when you decide, it has no say in the matter.

Biggest plus with the Clever is that you can leave it (good if you get distracted, or are at work).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

One of the problems I have, is my memory.....in 2017 I had 2 operations in quick succession with 3 hospital stays. For days I was pumped full of all sorts of things as I fought some quote impressive infections. Since my release on Christmas Day (30 mins before they served lunch so there is a god after all) I have found that one of the things suffering still, is memory. My recall of events from the dim distant is fine but I can forget what I have done yesterday with ease.

The point being for those with either good memory, or the ability to know what they are actually doing, can help old farts like me. For example, I was sent some beans to try, so thought, right, Clever....looked at it, thought 15 gms per 250 mis.....but weighed out and ground 30 grams for some reason. Thought it was supposed to be a coarse grind when reading now they say fine. Put the clever onto the scales to weigh and forgot to tare....I could go on and on. Surprisingly, the brew is actually ok for my cowboy campfire taste buds.

so, the point of all of this, would be to ask those who brew, and like to help us idiots, how about a sub forum in brewed for recipes. There could be a sub forum for recipes for all of the main methods. So, if daft me wants to make a Clever brew he can go to the forum, then sub forum and quickly check what others recommend.

To me, this would be a better way than just going to the search feature as it throws up lots of other things.

Any thoughts?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> One of the problems I have, is my memory.....in 2017 I had 2 operations in quick succession with 3 hospital stays. For days I was pumped full of all sorts of things as I fought some quote impressive infections. Since my release on Christmas Day (30 mins before they served lunch so there is a god after all) I have found that one of the things suffering still, is memory. My recall of events from the dim distant is fine but I can forget what I have done yesterday with ease.
> 
> The point being for those with either good memory, or the ability to know what they are actually doing, can help old farts like me. For example, I was sent some beans to try, so thought, right, Clever....looked at it, thought 15 gms per 250 mis.....but weighed out and ground 30 grams for some reason. Thought it was supposed to be a coarse grind when reading now they say fine. Put the clever onto the scales to weigh and forgot to tare....I could go on and on. Surprisingly, the brew is actually ok for my cowboy campfire taste buds.
> 
> ...


Sure, but ask 50 people for a recipe and you'll get 45 different ones, only 3 or 4 will be complete & followable


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

perhaps it is not so much the recipes then but the methodology


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## jj-x-ray (Dec 31, 2017)

This thread is making me consider buying a clever.....


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> perhaps it is not so much the recipes then but the methodology


OK, so you want something low faff, for 1 mug (you mentioned 15:250 earlier).

Why not simply put a filter paper in the Clever, grind your usual dose from your espresso grinder (I doubt you will need to make a very large change, maybe none, maybe at the coarser end of what you already use?) pour 250g of boiling water in the Clever, add the coffee & quickly mix the dry grinds at the surface so you can't see any dry clods (don't stir vigorously & mix it all in), cover.

Give it say 10 min. If it's a little grainy/sandy in texture, try again a little coarser. Try longer steeps too (personallly, I'd stick to 30min. but a lot of extraction happens very quickly & I'm trying to get the max, you might be happy with less).


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I will try that tomorrow!


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## joffy (Sep 9, 2013)

I've been using a Clever for while and like it for a quick brew, but a few times now the seal has come loose and leaks everywhere. Is the Bonavita a better version?


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## Graham J (Jul 27, 2018)

dfk41 said:


> perhaps it is not so much the recipes then but the methodology


I've not brewed drip or pour-over coffee for several years, since acquiring the espresso bug.

But prompted by Jim Shulman ("another_Jim on H-B) posting on Clever or drip brews, in the Lelit Bianca thread on H-B, I tried a few drip brews using his recipe for the Bianca and they were really enjoyable when I wanted a longer drink. There are two simple ways to get 1:8 to 1:12 brew ratios and a drink of 140-240 ml in 2-4 minutes. Decent DE1 machines and any other variable pressure espresso machines can also do this trick.

I'd find it very useful to read other peoples methodology (and complete recipes) while I reflect on maybe buying a V60 or Clever or similar device.

I've investigated the effect on machine pump life and so have others. I can share that if needed.


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## Rom (Jan 20, 2017)

I took my Clever to work as it was my least faff brew method. But in the las 18 months I have used it once.. after reading this thread I decided I was bringing it home to use instead of my v60.... but forgot to bring it today. Hopefully I'll remember Monday


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## mikemaddux (Sep 24, 2016)

MWJB said:


> OK, so you want something low faff, for 1 mug (you mentioned 15:250 earlier).
> 
> Why not simply put a filter paper in the Clever, grind your usual dose from your espresso grinder (I doubt you will need to make a very large change, maybe none, maybe at the coarser end of what you already use?) pour 250g of boiling water in the Clever, add the coffee & quickly mix the dry grinds at the surface so you can't see any dry clods (don't stir vigorously & mix it all in), cover.
> 
> Give it say 10 min. If it's a little grainy/sandy in texture, try again a little coarser. Try longer steeps too (personallly, I'd stick to 30min. but a lot of extraction happens very quickly & I'm trying to get the max, you might be happy with less).


Three and a half to four minutes works fine for me.


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## mikemaddux (Sep 24, 2016)

HBLP said:


> 15 mins brew time in a clever? :S That sounds quite abnormal. Any?


Three and a half to four minutes produces excellent coffee for me.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

mikemaddux said:


> Three and a half to four minutes works fine for me.


Not for me. Can you give me a guide to your grind size?

I'm grinding fine, in the espresso region an 10min is about the minimum to get something OK/fairly tasty.


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## HBLP (Sep 23, 2018)

MWJB said:


> Not for me. Can you give me a guide to your grind size?
> 
> I'm grinding fine, in the espresso region an 10min is about the minimum to get something OK/fairly tasty.


I might be speaking complete nonsense, but could it be that when the grind is too fine, the grinds are compacting in such a way that it slows down extraction? I only say this because I recently tried to make cold brew with espresso-fine ground coffee, but after 1 week of brewing it's still incredibly underextracted. The grounds all just settle into this massive puck, and nothing more is coming out of them. I don't have the same problem with medium-ground cold brew.

Like I say, I could very easily be speaking complete nonsense, and not sure whether espresso fine is nearly fine enough for coffee grounds to lose permeability when compacted by gravity, my feeling would be that it wouldn't be but like I say, recent experience made me think twice.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

HBLP said:


> I might be speaking complete nonsense, but could it be that when the grind is too fine, the grinds are compacting in such a way that it slows down extraction? I only say this because I recently tried to make cold brew with espresso-fine ground coffee, but after 1 week of brewing it's still incredibly underextracted. The grounds all just settle into this massive puck, and nothing more is coming out of them. I don't have the same problem with medium-ground cold brew.
> 
> Like I say, I could very easily be speaking complete nonsense, and not sure whether espresso fine is nearly fine enough for coffee grounds to lose permeability when compacted by gravity, my feeling would be that it wouldn't be but like I say, recent experience made me think twice.


With cold brew in the Clever a stir every now & then can be a good thing to move things about, settled grinds still extract though, it's a myth that they stop when they sink.

My hot extractions are relatively high compared to a lot of Clever brews & higher than hot French press, just hard to get them high enough with a 1 mug hot brew (easier with 400ml+). They're averaging 24.5% immersion, but 20% cold brews should be achievable with a fine grind (quick stir once a day).

Anyhow, stirring in the fine grinds on top of the hot water is a bit fiddly, so now I pour ~150ml, add coffee, then use the last of the water to mix them together & cover ASAP.


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## Pompeyexile (Dec 2, 2013)

I like my Clever Dripper and since retiring use it most days. I let it sit usually about ten minutes and to keep it hot cover it with a Thinsulate beany hat I got from Aldi. Works a treat. I like it because it's faff free and quick and easy to clean.


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