# What to buy…



## EJ-Guano (Oct 26, 2014)

So, I've been buying beans for about 30 years, bought myself a mocha pot and have been brewing at home for all that time, occasionally use a drip or a french press&#8230; we lived in London for all that time so only needed one cup or so before work. Then onto a local Coffee shop proper for something a bit better.

We now live in the middle of nowhere in Cornwall, I work from home and seemed like a good time to get a machine and a new decent grinder as getting a decent coffee means a drive to either Exeter (Devon Coffee) or Falmouth (Espressini)&#8230;

I like a couple of cortado in the morning, maybe a interesting espresso after dinner, the wife likes a flat white or cortado. So a good espresso and milk frothing are important.

We buy coffee beans online from the likes of Higgins, Origin, Workshop, Monmouth, Nude etc so want to do them justice&#8230;

Obviously don't want to spend more than is necessary but don't want to buy cheap and then get on the upgrade bus for the next few years. Would rather buy something decent from the get go.

I'm a designer by trade so aesthetics are important, I looked at a Rocket R58 for about 5 minutes then sobered up&#8230;









So&#8230;

Was thinking along these lines after much research, what you guys and gals think?

ECM Heidelberg Barista

Rocket Cellini Plus V3 with PID

La Pavoni Europiccola (Madness?)

Mazzer mini

Mahlkoenig Vario

Zenith 65E

Thanks, appreciate any pointers, stuff 'off list' etc


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Whats your preferred budget and your absolute max?


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## EJ-Guano (Oct 26, 2014)

Hmmm good question, I'm not entirely convinced once you get into this level of machine an extra 1k for a R58 is going to give me for instance a better result, so much as I'd like one and could at a push budget for one I don't think it would pay dividends. So I'd really like to spend no more than is necessary (wouldn't we all) hence the ECM being high on the list&#8230; so maybe about 1500 +/- 100&#8230;


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## RagingMammoth (Sep 21, 2013)

EJ-Guano said:


> Hmmm good question, I'm not entirely convinced once you get into this level of machine an extra 1k for a R58 is going to give me for instance a better result, so much as I'd like one and could at a push budget for one I don't think it would pay dividends. So I'd really like to spend no more than is necessary (wouldn't we all) hence the ECM being high on the list&#8230; so maybe about 1500 +/- 100&#8230;


I know it does sound like a lot, but you are inbetween ranges at the moment. A amazing set up will run you about 2k, whereas a decent one will be about 800-1000. Always remember though, don't skimp on the grinder.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The reason I ask is that you could consider things like the Londinium L1, that would stretch even the high end of your budget new, and leave no room for a good grinder which is very important.

I would think the general advice would be to write off almost all those grinders, especially the Vario. If you want bang for buck then look at S/H commercial, the Mazzer SJ is a popular choice for around £300 S/H. It is often advised that the grinder should be the first and biggest bit of the budget however, you could consider things like the Mythos (£800 S/H if you can find one) which is one of, if not the, best flat burr grinder available, or if you end up buying a lever then perhaps look at the higher end conicals.


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

If you go cheap you probably will want to upgrade eventually, so the Rocket isn't a bad choice in that respect









You could look at the range of Fracino machines if you want something a bit cheaper than a Rocket but better than a Gaggia Classic.

Europiccola is a capable machine but it is a manual lever so you will need to master it to get the best out of it. If you are up for it then great, but if you just want to walk up and pull consistent espresso then the pump would be a better option, or a sprung lever like the Londinium I.

I've got a Vario, it has low retention and a small footprint but I will upgrade at some point as I just don't get the best out of my coffee with it. There are some happy Zenith owners on here so do a search and read some reviews. Mini is also a capable grinder but suffers a bit from retention. You could also consider a second hand Mazzer to save a bit of money?

Dont forget to budget for a decent tamper too, and then you should have a very nice setup.


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## dougie todd (Feb 4, 2014)

65e is a really nice looking grinder, nice small hopper from BB and it has a nice blue screen and LED light for the PF, I love mine, so easy to clean without affecting settings as well which is a huge plus. No experience with other grinders myself but I am very happy


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## EJ-Guano (Oct 26, 2014)

Tamper I have&#8230; thanks for feedback so far. Totally on board with getting best grinder I can.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I think whilst the 65e is a great grinder that looks the part it is pretty far from the best you can get in your budget.

Think of it as 'Better than a Mignon but not as good/on par with a SJ'. Many find its well worth paying for the electronic dosing and modern looks, but if quality in the cup is what matters you should probably look bigger!


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## EJ-Guano (Oct 26, 2014)

Rocket Cellini Plus V3 with PID + Mazzer Super Jolly Manual

This afternoons choice&#8230; check back tomorrow for change in the wind


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Well looked after super jollys are fairly common on the second hand market


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

EJ-Guano said:


> Rocket Cellini Plus V3 with PID + Mazzer Super Jolly Manual
> 
> This afternoons choice&#8230; check back tomorrow for change in the wind


Are you considering the Expobar Office Leva as well?

Maybe someone can clarify this for me, but does the PID on a HX just control the boiler temp, and thus only change the speed of recovery rather than the brew temp itself?


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## EJ-Guano (Oct 26, 2014)

Hmmm nice, good value too, the plot thickens!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

There might be an Brewtus coming up for sale soon


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

To be clear, the Brewtus and Leva are the same machine.


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Yours Jeebsy? Could be very interested (apologies to the OP for the hijack, been waiting for expo DB to come up for a while now)

John


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## PeterF (Aug 25, 2014)

I think you would be far better off with the Expobar Leva Dual Boiler PID instead of the Rocket Cellini. I was faced with the same choice recently. The Rocket looks very pretty but a Heat Exchanger machine will never match the consistency in temperature that a dual boiler offers, plus it's nearly £300 cheaper. That would leave more in the pot to buy a really good grinder.


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## 7877 (Aug 14, 2014)

Given the proliferation of second hand Mazzer SJ and the prices they go for it is easy to see why they are popular. However, I think it does depend on how you are going to use it and if you are looking for an on demand grinder the 65e is hard to beat at the price point for a new grinder. There are some detailed threads hereabouts that are worth a read....

http://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?16042-Eureka-Zenith-65E-%A3499-delivered


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

johnealey said:


> Yours Jeebsy? Could be very interested (apologies to the OP for the hijack, been waiting for expo DB to come up for a while now)
> 
> John


Yeah. I need to have a hard think this morning about upgrading then go and speak to the bank manager, should know after that.


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## EJ-Guano (Oct 26, 2014)

All good advice, thank you everyone&#8230; sent the wife to Selfridges to have a look at the Rockets, sure she will flip so Expobar might be way to go!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

EJ-Guano said:


> All good advice, thank you everyone&#8230; sent the wife to Selfridges to have a look at the Rockets, sure she will flip so Expobar might be way to go!


It's very easy to fall in love with the face of a Rocket, I cant think of many other reasons why they get chosen over more capable machines in the same price range.


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## EJ-Guano (Oct 26, 2014)

So the ver 4 Expobar Leva Dual and Eureka 65E at BB for 1588.86&#8230; might be the go, see what she says when she gets back from the big city&#8230;

I quite like the clunky honesty of the expobar making me think the Rockets look a bit footballer/cyclist shaven legs and tattoos&#8230; ;-)


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Expobar is an excellent choice, 65e is at a good price point for a new OD grinder but suffers when compared to others at its price point in the S/H market (as any grinder will).

Have you fully considered the grinder? Whilst for a new OD grinder the Zenith is hard to beat, for you money you can get better results in the cup with a S/H commercial. You will take on a bit of faff with a doser and its understandable to be put off by this. The 65e looks nicer in the kitchen as well.


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## EJ-Guano (Oct 26, 2014)

Thanks Dylan, doubtful I will have all the funds till next month so plenty of time to change my mind, got a search on eBay so will see what turns up, my mate just got a Ditting, monster of a thing, for a grand, not my idea of a beautiful machine but good grind.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

EJ-Guano said:


> Thanks Dylan, doubtful I will have all the funds till next month so plenty of time to change my mind, got a search on eBay so will see what turns up, my mate just got a Ditting, monster of a thing, for a grand, not my idea of a beautiful machine but good grind.


Not a lot gets said about ditting on these forums, I know they make a lot of the shop-style grinders that grinds many KG a day, and grinders like the EK have proven that you can be surprised by what is not meant to be an espresso grinder. But the lack of information on their performance in the cup would make them a risky buy in my eyes.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Dylan said:


> To be clear, the Brewtus and Leva are the same machine.


Noticed today that this is not an accurate statement.

The Office Leva is a HX and different to the Leva Dual Boiler (or brewtus)

Expobars naming scheme is not exactly that clear


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

They are totally different machines


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> They are totally different machines


Yea, 'not accurate' was about as good as I could make my wildly incorrect post seem


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Dylan said:


> Noticed today that this is not an accurate statement.


That's not like you...


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