# Too strong?



## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

When I make my double espresso I use 20gm as this is what my present basket holds as indicated by levelling without pressing. I have stuck to this quantity although there have been many times that I feel the coffee is too strong. Unfortunately none of my friends make espresso and so I don't get any feedback.

Is there a distinct difference in taste between "too strong", "harsh", "bitter" and "sour"?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

What beans are you using?


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## Spazbarista (Dec 6, 2011)

Just try a smaller basket and 15g and see which flavour you prefer. You will have to tighten the grind a touch to get the same length pour.


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

fatboyslim said:


> What beans are you using?


http://www.thomsonscoffee.com/special-blend.html


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

I think the fact that there is no info whatsoever on this blend other than "A blend of the world's finest Arabica beans roasted chestnut brown" speaks for itself!


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Agreed... Extremely omninous not stating provinence


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

They do single origin coffees too.

Beemer, "too strong" doesn't tell us much. A shot can be too concentrated for your preference, but still not be too bitter, harsh or sour...just too pungent.

As Expo says, try dosing less (you don't have to level the basket, you can just put in 18g, distribute & tamp) and/or running/grinding the shot for a bigger output. What shot weight are you getting at the moment from 20g?


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## Milesy (Mar 8, 2012)

Are you over extracting or burning the shot?

What is your shot volume (by weight) and extraction time?


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

MWJB said:


> They do single origin coffees too.
> 
> Beemer, "too strong" doesn't tell us much. A shot can be too concentrated for your preference, but still not be too bitter, harsh or sour...just too pungent.
> 
> As Expo says, try dosing less (you don't have to level the basket, you can just put in 18g, distribute & tamp) and/or running/grinding the shot for a bigger output. What shot weight are you getting at the moment from 20g?


Getting 60ml. Today I dropped the dose to 18g and I think it is a little more to my liking


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

Milesy said:


> Are you over extracting or burning the shot?
> 
> What is your shot volume (by weight) and extraction time?


2oz(60ml) 25 seconds 10.5bar 93C


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

OK, so how's the flavour? What are the things you don't like about it (not because I want you to poke holes in your shots, just because it's often easier to start eliminating the things that are present that you don't like, rather than looking for something you specifically do like that might not be there)? Too intense? Too bitter? How is the sweetness? Any acidity/sharpness? When you went down to 18g did you have to adjust the grind any?

Perhaps pull 2 shots, one at 60g, the other at 30-40g ...which one do you prefer?


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

MWJB said:


> OK, so how's the flavour? What are the things you don't like about it (not because I want you to poke holes in your shots, just because it's often easier to start eliminating the things that are present that you don't like, rather than looking for something you specidically do like that might not be there)? Too intense? Too bitter? How is the sweetness? Any acidity/sharpness? When you went down to 18g did you have to adjust the grind any?
> 
> Perhaps pull 2 shots, one at 60g, the other at 30-40g ...which one do you prefer?


I have had very few shots that I was happy with sweetness. Most are what I would call harsh or bitter. I don't know what a sour or acidic coffee would taste like. My only other observation is that in keeping to 25 seconds I have difficulty in judging the point at which my coffee blondes. Is some blonde part of the last third or should none be put in the cup?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

This might sound counter-intuative....but forget blonding...worry less about hitting 25 seconds on the dot.

Go by weight, taste it, then adjust...perhaps start to worry if your shots are under 20 seconds, over 35 seconds.

If you are looking for more sweetness (or at this stage, aiming to reduce bitterness), it may well be that none of your shot is blonde. Different coffees behave differently...you might find one that is cloyingly sweet & one dimensional, pulling it longer reveals a more complex balanced shot, but it looks like the reverse is true for you right now and that your current experience is the more typical in general.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

The 25-30 second target is really just a guideline to help get in the right ballpark and you will often need to venture outside of this range for specific beans. For example, denser beans tend to be harder to extract and so often require longer than 30 seconds.

As MWJB suggested, use weight to judge the shot. To start with I would suggest aiming to produce double the weight of liquid espresso to ground coffee used e.g. if you use 18g of ground coffee then aim to produce 36g of liquid espresso in 25-30 seconds. Once you are in the ball park, taste it. If it tastes bitter then coarsen the grind and if it tastes sour or overly acidic then grind finer. Do not worry if the adjustment takes you outside of the 25-30 second range.


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## Stevenp6 (May 17, 2011)

It all in the beans - experiment with different ones. Espresso is for the gods.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I've often blamed the beans and later realised it was me. I agree with the idea of always trying different ones tho.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Ive had great shots at both 24 seconds and 40 seconds (there is even legend of the 70 second taste sensation).

As a loose rule tho to get what I think tastes good , 18g dose is good between 24g & 30g yields, depending on many many factors.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Oh the worried look on Steve's face when we said we wanted to pull a 70 second ristretto on his Slayer....


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

jimbow said:


> The 25-30 second target is really just a guideline to help get in the right ballpark and you will often need to venture outside of this range for specific beans. For example, denser beans tend to be harder to extract and so often require longer than 30 seconds.
> 
> As MWJB suggested, use weight to judge the shot. To start with I would suggest aiming to produce double the weight of liquid espresso to ground coffee used e.g. if you use 18g of ground coffee then aim to produce 36g of liquid espresso in 25-30 seconds. Once you are in the ball park, taste it. If it tastes bitter then coarsen the grind and if it tastes sour or overly acidic then grind finer. Do not worry if the adjustment takes you outside of the 25-30 second range.


I think I have found the solution to my problem but it leaves a question. Until now I have been assuming that my ground coffee weight and the shot weight were matching. This was because I constantly read that a double shot is 60ml (2oz). Taking this to be true, and that my double ground is 18-20gram I adjusted everything to produce that 60ml (2oz). If this had been water then the weight would be 60gm (same as 60ml) plus the 20% extract weight so 72gm.

Now after more reading I learn that a starting point for espresso evaluation is ground weight in grams x 1.5 = brew weight. So now with a much finer grind, 20gm x 1.5 produces 30gm of coffee in 25 seconds and I now have sweetness appearing









So would someone please tell me why I see folks posting about their producing great 2oz double espressos?


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

Beemer said:


> So would someone please tell me why I see folks posting about their producing great 2oz double espressos?


Maybe they're yet to experience great espresso! This is why I like to visit good coffee shops to calibrate my taste buds every now and then.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Great shots can be produced at 60ml/2oz. For example, the WBC rules are 30ml +/- 5ml for a single shot. It comes down to having a certain combination of parameters, as always - eg grind quality, roast style, green bean characteristics, terroir etc. I think being able to produce a tasty 60ml shot weighing 70g is a noble goal.


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

MikeHag said:


> Great shots can be produced at 60ml/2oz. For example, the WBC rules are 30ml +/- 5ml for a single shot. It comes down to having a certain combination of parameters, as always - eg grind quality, roast style, green bean characteristics, terroir etc. I think being able to produce a tasty 60ml shot weighing 70g is a noble goal.


It may be noble but how do they get 36-40gm in a double basket?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Eh? They dont. They use a standard double dose.

We are all limited by our chosen parameters. Beans. Grinder. Machine. Tamper. Skill. Etc. With your parameters a 1.5 brew ratio produces your optimum shot. For other people it will differ.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Beemer said:


> ...
> 
> So would someone please tell me why I see folks posting about their producing great 2oz double espressos?


1ml of water weighs 1g at room temperature. Espresso is denser than water (it includes undissolved and dissolved coffee solids) but also includes a layer of crema. Crema will make a significant contribution to the volume of the espresso beverage but varies depending upon a number of factors including the freshness of the beans. The inclusion of crema means it is entirely possible to have an espresso beverage that is 2 Fl. Oz. volume that weighs only 30g (excuse the mixture of metric and imperial units).

This inconsistency is one of the main reasons that many people prefer to use weight as it is more consistent than volume to measure the espresso. Also it is confusing intermixing volume and weight measurements and so simply using weight to measure both the ground coffee and beverage is much simpler.

The ratio of ground coffee to liquid espresso produced is called the brew ratio. A 1:1 ratio where they are the same weight would usually be considered a ristretto by many people. A ratio of between 1:2.5 and 1:1.666 (40% and 60% respectively) is usually considered a normale espresso. So the 1:1.5 ratio you are using sits towards the upper end of the normale range.


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

Jimbow, Thanks for your reply. After now a 100 doubles I have yet to see the crema component more than 10mm in my 2oz glass even now that I have adjusted BR to 1.56. I assume its because I am presently brewing light roast mellow blend Arabica.


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## jimbow (Oct 13, 2011)

Crema will vary due to a number of factors including the specific beans, roast and freshness. I have brewed some espresso where half the volume has been crema and then others where the crema has been barely a couple of mm (especially with older beans). If you use weight to measure the espresso then you will be able to produce a consistent brew ratio irrespective of the quantity of crema.


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

Jimbow,

Agreed


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Beemer wrote: "Taking this to be true, and that my double ground is 18-20gram I adjusted everything to produce that 60ml (2oz). If this had been water then the weight would be 60gm (same as 60ml) plus the 20% extract weight so 72gm."

Hi Beemer, I see where you were going with this, but I think you have misinterpreted extraction yield. Not surprising, so many different no's/percentages etc. flying around...it can become bit of a blur. The extraction yield is the percentage of the grinds weight that ends up in the cup as dissolved solids, so say your dose is 18g and your shot is properly extracted at >18% yield, then >18% of that 18g dose is the extract weight, or a minimum of 3.24g.

Here's the thing that can be a bit of a brain bender until you get to grips with it..that >3.24g from 18g at 18% yield will be the same for any quantity, strength or style of coffee properly extracted from 18g of grinds. So 300g of filter coffee brewed at 60g/l @ 18% yield, though weaker, will have the same weight of coffee solids as your shot from an 18g dose. If you were to make a long black, or an Americano from that shot, only the strength (AKA "%TDS" = dissolved solids as a percentage of beverage weight) would change not the "extraction yield". So to recap...

Your 1:1.65 BR (60%) espresso shot from 18g dose of grinds @ 18% yield (of that 18g of grinds) should theoretically give ~10.8% TDS (strength as % of beverage) from 3.24g of dissolved solids.

A 300g (water added) filter brew at 1:17 (6%) BR from the same dose of grinds @ 18% extraction yield should theoretically give ~1.25% TDS (strength as % of beverage) from 3.24g of dissolved solids.


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## Beemer (Jun 19, 2012)

MWJB,

Yikes! I took the extract % of the brew not the grounds. Sorry for that and for taking time to expand.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Hi all, could someone let me know how to measure my shot, in layman's terms. I've aquired a new grinder and have been weighing 16g beans and then grinding. I'm not weighing the grind, I now realise I should be.

I have some new scales good to 0.1g, but I get confused as to the weight etc as everyone keeps talking Ounces, ml and Grams.

Should I weigh my coffee after grinding, then when pouring, place my scales under my shot glass? What setting should I have the scales, g or oz?

Hope someone can clear this up for a relative newbie who wants to be able to taste the espresso sensation I keep hearing you lot go on about.

My pours just taste strong and slightly burnt so I add a sugar.....oops I know! Haha


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## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Dependent on grinder either weigh the beans & then grind or weigh the ground coffee after grinding.

Put a light container or plastic 100 mls shot glass onto a scale under the PF & switch the scale on to O.OO including the container (tare).

You will also need a seconds timer. Grind, distribute & tamp the PF, not too hard. Put into the group head & switch on the water at the correct temperature. Let it run for 25/30 seconds & stop water when the scale is showing approx double the grind weight. Go back & adjust the grind until you are able to achieve this.

This is only a ball park measurement you may well wish to add a little less/more water within the time scale to suit your taste. If you hit it correctly you may well not need the sugar


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Thanks ronsil, so if I grind 18g I will stop my pour when I hit 36g ok will see what happens tonight. Thanks for that.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Weighing grinds - best to weigh after grinding, either in the portafilter, or in the basket (if ridgeless).

Is your basket a "16g" basket, or is that just what you can cram in there?

Sure, place the scales under the shot glass, if you measure the grinds in "g", then do the same with the beverage. Then divide the dose weight by the weight of the drink to get the brew ratio as a %. Once you know where you are at, it makes it easier to track changes.

I tend to make a lot of lists & spreadsheets,, so if you (or anyone else) would like a copy of my XL espresso target beverage/brew ratio calculator (I know, I know..."the 90's called & they want their technology back") feel free to PM me with your e-mail.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Jason1wood said:


> Thanks ronsil, so if I grind 18g I will stop my pour when I hit 36g ok will see what happens tonight. Thanks for that.


I prefer a shorter brew ratio. 17g into 27g, the shorter the ratio the more texture and mouthfeel you achieve.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Forget about oz and ml. They are units of volume rather than units of mass. Use grammes.

Ideally you should weigh what is in the basket. If you have scales large enough to accomodate your filled portafilter than that is ideal, as you can then fine tune the dose in the basket before tamping.

Then when you pull the shot, yes, use small scales under your shot vessel (it doesn't have to be a shot glass because remember you no longer care about the line on the glass as that is volume, not weight). Put the vessel on the scales and tare the scales to zero. Start the shot and start a timer at the same time. You stop the shot, and the timer, a few seconds before your target weight, because it takes a few seconds more for the flow to end... this takes practise and is never very precise tbh. You are aiming for two things... a specific final beverage weight, and a specific extraction time. You need to decide what the optimum weight and time are for each different coffee, and it also changes as the number of days since the beans were roasted increases. Use taste to decide what is the optimum. The ratio of your input dose weight to output beverage weight is known as Brew Ratio, and a common range these days is around 1.5 (also known as 66%, which is the inverse of 1.5). A common brew time is 23-35seconds.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Great stuff chaps, that's made things a little clearer for me, I was getting confused with the different volumes and masses everyone was mentioning.

My basket is just a Gaggia double and hae been trying 18g or 16g without weighing anything else then just timing a 25 second pour. I now know what I'm doing so will give all this a try tonight.

Just hope I can get to sleep haha

Thanks again lads.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Threads like this are terrifying to me... Lol. I often wonder if you guys actually drink any coffee, or just spend your time weighing and measuring things









I'm trying to make good tasting coffee as much as anyone else, but just don't have the patience or time for some of these "rituals" and fairly sure baristas working in the pro environment don't either.

There has to be an easier way? By the time I weight my beans, my grinds, my glasses, my shot I will end up both late for work, and drinking a cold coffee!


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

Once you know what you are doing though it becomes a lot quicker.

Barista's know that running a pre-set timer on their grinder gives them ~18g, and have the machine dialed in to deliver a certain weight of shot after a certain time. they dont do it every shot, but they will calibrate their machines as they get new beans.

I used to just use a scoop to weigh my beans, after getting a set of scales I did a sample of 15 times sticking 2 scoops of beans into the scales, I got a different result each time from 14.0 to 16.5g. As a low volume home user I weight out my beans each morning then chuck them in my grinder which adds about 15 seconds to my time, then weigh the output only when I get new beans or if there is a problem. Its made a massive difference to my coffee, for the cost of £5 from ebay.

It seems scarier than it is, trust me


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