# Everpure Claris in London



## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Is anybody here filtering London water through a Everpure Claris system?

If so, what setting do you recommend?


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Number 3 and the water is well hard where I live


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks dwalsh1.

I reckon we're as hard in Camden as you are in Harrow, but lets not fight over it.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Nice one RoloD. I'm more of a lover.

Oh and by the way I reckon I got 2980 litres out of a XL bottle on setting 3.



RoloD said:


> Thanks dwalsh1.
> 
> I reckon we're as hard in Camden as you are in Harrow, but lets not fight over it.


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## P.B (Jun 3, 2012)

In Essex I measured the unfiltered water at a TDS of ~390ppm using a hand held device. Set at 2, TDS was about 150ppm. However, I became concerned about alkilinity was a result of the Home-barista thread on the Claris. I brought a cheap kit for fish tanks and this showed the PH to drop to around ~3-4. If this is accurate (and it may not be) then it is far below the recommended limit for good espresso (as published on H-B) so I've stopped using it. What prompted me was the sight-glass showing "green stuff" in it, this is mentioned in the H-B thread as verdigre. I've since used Volvic and there is no increase in green stuff, in fact it's reduced noticably.

Paul


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Is there a way of calculating a TDS reading into degrees clark? That's the method I'm using as given to me by Veolia water.


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## P.B (Jun 3, 2012)

I not an expert by any stretch but I THINK that degrees clark relates directly to hardness whereas TDS is everything and not an exact indication of the likelihood of scaling. You'll probably find the answer after reading 100 pages of water related threads on H-B...

Good luck - Paul


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

P.B said:


> I not an expert by any stretch but I THINK that degrees clark relates directly to hardness whereas TDS is everything and not an exact indication of the likelihood of scaling. You'll probably find the answer after reading 100 pages of water related threads on H-B...l


 That's exactly what I wanted to avoid doing.

Any advance on No. 3?


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

That HB thread will tie me up in knots.............

Paul. When you say "TDS is everything and not an exact indication of scaling" Surely hardness is the thing we should be looking at because of scaling of the boiler which is what we are trying to avoid?

cheers

dennis


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

I thought you look at tds to judge more for the taste of coffee?

Maybe something like this to judge hardness?

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Hardness-Testing-Kit/dp/B004R1344M


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Looks interesting. I wonder how much it differs from the reading that Veolia water has for my area on their website?



RisingPower said:


> I thought you look at tds to judge more for the taste of coffee?
> 
> Maybe something like this to judge hardness?
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/Water-Hardness-Testing-Kit/dp/B004R1344M


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Presumably they only can take an average for the area?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

I'd rather err on too high tds and therefore possibly higher hardness than too low from my experience of RO water and occasionally descale (pretty hard water here).

Some people swear by RO water as it has virtually no tds, therefore no hardness, but I found it really affected the taste of espresso, they all ended up tasting so watery and bland, even with mixing hard water in to bring up the tds, haven't used it since.

Would be interesting to know what degree of hardness the water is on the claris system at the setting you feel tastes best in the cup, you can then look at jim schulmans water faq to see how bad it'll scale.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

Well I've ordered the testing kit. Funny you mention taste cause when my kids have made tea from the hot water tap off the Faema they say it tastes dodgy so I can only think that the claris system in place has something to do with that.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dwalsh1 said:


> Well I've ordered the testing kit. Funny you mention taste cause when my kids have made tea from the hot water tap off the Faema they say it tastes dodgy so I can only think that the claris system in place has something to do with that.


Hmm, maybe the claris isn't an ion exchange resin...

I think all of them affect taste somewhat as they just replace the salts with other elements (except RO), so the taste changes, not necessarily for the best (ro considably for the worse as everything goes instead of just being replaced)

Water which is good for espresso, I don't think is necessarily good for other drinks either.

I'd say go for whatever tastes good to you, I tried RO, thought it was a waste of time and just use a brita filter these days, which has minimal impact on hardness and just tastes good to me.

Have a look at jim schulmans water faq.

This looks interesting too:

http://www.home-barista.com/knockbox/everpure-claris-adjustable-water-softening-filter-system-t11968.html


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

That's the thread that's going to tie me up in knots. I feel I need a degree in science to understand it but I will take a look. Get back to you next Christmas when I've read it


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dwalsh1 said:


> That's the thread that's going to tie me up in knots. I feel I need a degree in science to understand it but I will take a look. Get back to you next Christmas when I've read it


Surely all it says is just, hard water bad, soft water good?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

More interesting is the gist that actually, the claris system can reduce the ph too much.

Looks like you need to get testing the ph, as it seems the claris system keeps tds about the same whilst the alkalinity changes considerably.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

All this looks interesting but I only brought the claris because Reiss of Londinium raved about it. I'm ignorant/embarrassed to what ph,tds and alkalinity does . As long as the scale don't build up in my machine then I'm a happy bunny



RisingPower said:


> More interesting is the gist that actually, the claris system can reduce the ph too much.
> 
> Looks like you need to get testing the ph, as it seems the claris system keeps tds about the same whilst the alkalinity changes considerably.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dwalsh1 said:


> All this looks interesting but I only brought the claris because Reiss of Londinium raved about it. I'm ignorant/embarrassed to what ph,tds and alkalinity does . As long as the scale don't build up in my machine then I'm a happy bunny


It seems he raves about a lot, is there some reason he raves about the claris?

So, as per the hb thread, if the claris goes too acidic, you'll have corrosion instead of scale. Looks like you may need to be careful with it.

I wouldn't treat scale as the biggest issue, it should be taste whilst not silly amounts of scale.

Tds is important as too much, generally you get lots of scale, too little, no flavour.


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## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

I visited his workshop last February because I was thinking of buying a Bosco lever machine. I mentioned that I had a Brita C150 water filter backing up my Duetto and he led me to believe that the claris was the be all and end all of water filters. I didn't actually buy one until I installed the Faema Legend which I have now. Not sure if it was a good or bad move but what's done is done now. This testing kit I have ordered, what do you think I should be looking for in terms of numbers?


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

dwalsh1 said:


> I visited his workshop last February because I was thinking of buying a Bosco lever machine. I mentioned that I had a Brita C150 water filter backing up my Duetto and he led me to believe that the claris was the be all and end all of water filters. I didn't actually buy one until I installed the Faema Legend which I have now. Not sure if it was a good or bad move but what's done is done now. This testing kit I have ordered, what do you think I should be looking for in terms of numbers?


I'm sure it was a good move, I'm just curious about the claris









I'm guessing the only real issue is if the ph drops too much, but kh and gh presumably also need to be taken into account as they influence ph.

http://fins.actwin.com/mirror/begin-chem.html

Get someone with more knowledge, all I know is corrosion is far less easy to fix than scale and according to the hb thread, far more of an issue with dual boilers wrt the carbonic acid in the water (see jims posts in that thread)


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## P.B (Jun 3, 2012)

If you've read the H-B thread on Jim's 101 on water and the Claris one too, then you know as much as me!

Like RisingPower I also used RO water when I had my HX machine. When the filters were new the TDS would drop from ~375ppm to ~20ppm. This produced dreadful tasting espresso, so I'd add a splash of untreated tap water to bring the TDS back up to 80-120ppm. This tasted fine and the kettle never needed descaling (in more than two years) so I'd assume the HX machine was fine too. However, the system took up 60% of the under sink storage space and because of the way I'd plumbed it in changing the filters, every six months, was a nightmare. Therefore, any alternatives appeared more attractive.

Generally I'd also agree with RisingPower that scale is easier to deal with than corrosion. However, scale also get into places that don't get descaled without taking the machine apart (e.g. the vaccum breaker, and probably other areas.) How MUCH corrosion actually occurs is an unknown. It might be a theoretical problem (like the claim that using RO water in a boiler would stop the boiler water level sensor from working) or it might be a long term time bomb...

The Claris is plumbed into a three-way tap, not the espresso machine, so we do drink it. Yes it tastes differently to tap water but it's OK (I don't really like the taste of water anyway so I'm not the best person to comment on it!)

Personally, I would love someone to give me the ideal water solution. The Claris seemed perfect until I found the H-B thread on the Claris and it mentioned the "green stuff" and that's what caught my eye as the sight glass in my Cremina had some "green stuff" in it. The Claris on setting 2 massively reduces scale, our kettle has not been descled since the Claris was installed (March) but there is some forming so it will need a small descale in the next year or so. If I used tap water in the kettle I would have to descale every 2 months, minimum. Because I now have a Cremina I no longer have to do a HX cooling flush I don't use too much water. Therefore, from a cost basis it's now viable to use Volvic: six bottles cost £4 and lasts about 3 weeks and that's a lot less that the initial £280 on the Claris set up and the yearly cartridge replacement.

What I have found frustrating is the lack of response from Claris to any emails that were sent by H-B members - why won't they defend their product? The position I am now in is that Claris may or may not cause problems; the cheap testing kit I used may or may not be accurate but it gives the same results as others in the H-B forum. When using the Claris I had "green stuff" in the sight-glass, now using Volvic it's reducing (Volvic has a PH of 7 (and no I don't have shares it Volvic!)). With my volume of water usage it's cheaper to use bottle water than a plumbed in system and I won't have to find £180 or so in March to replace the Claris XXL cartridge!

Someone on H-B stated that one should always test your water before and after treatment. However, I think that for most of us that's just not practical as it's expensive using the test kits recommended but mainly we don't understand the results anyway!


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

You can always pull (most) of the parts which get scale fairly easily (at least in alex) that don't get descaled as part of routine if needs be









I do wonder whether there is an ideal solution. The thing about water here is it has an off taste, so even if I did use the ro system and brita filter water, it's a faff and I never got the mix right for my liking.

The big part on hx'ers you have to worry about surely is the exchanger area itself and not so much other parts like the vacuum breaker? (i have descaled the breaker before though, that said, I believe it had some scale even when I got it used).

Also the hb thread on how much the tds can differ from one minute to the next makes me wonder whether it's worth the effort worrying about scale.

Call me crazy, but I tried a variety of bottled water and noticed no difference to brita water.

I think the ideal water solution, is to move to somewhere which has good water


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## P.B (Jun 3, 2012)

This is what happened to me when using Brita jug filter water in a HX machine:

http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/andreja-goes-pop

It caused me quite a bit of grief to get it fixed. I know it's a weakness of the Andreja design but if the water is hard enough scale will get everywhere, hence my determination to avoid it!

The water temperatude also effect the TDS reading. I found mine fluctuated bewteen ~350 and 395ppm (using a hand held TDS meter), so yes it does differ but in my case (and I suspect yours too given you're not too far away) it differs between very, very hard and very, very, very hard so scale will always be a problem.

In what ways did you notice no difference between bottled water and Brita: taste in an espresso or scale? I tried Tesco Ashbeck (cheap) and Volvic (not so cheap)

and noticed no difference in taste but Volvic is easier for me to get hold of.

When I retire I hope to move to an area where the water is kinder to espresso machines AND the house prices are lower too


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Yeah my pstat went sideways too, didn't find it that hard to change though, don't recall any damage like that being that visible though, it just was constantly on and off and the hx /group head was cold.

Mmm a fair point about the temperature, but I think it was even the supply itself, not the temperature they were getting at.

So, in taste I didn't notice a difference between volvic, tescos water, evian, forget the others









Wrt scale, I couldn't possibly say, it gets descaled each month and I haven't noted any significant buildup inside, or on the breaker or around that area (seems you get a bit of water sputtering out of the breaker).

I know the tds is high, I know scale is an issue here, but it's hopefully under control. I hope









I couldn't get on with a ro and brita mix, but it's quite possible I got the mix wrong.


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## P.B (Jun 3, 2012)

Hi RisingPower,

it wasn't the Pstat that went (although I've had a few but they seem to go with or without the aid of any scale!)

The scale in the vac breaker caused it to fail to seal which allowed sufficient water out to short the temperature limit stat. A design flaw in the Andreja it seems possibiliy because it has a vertical boiler whereas your Alex has a horizontal one so maybe the water is more turbulent at the top as there's a smaller surface area and this allows it to splash out, maybe. My point was that scale has the potential to get into places you wouldn't think.

Yes; I'm sure the supply fluctuates in TDS but unfortunately for us it would only fluctuate between high and very high so we always have to be concerned with scale. Having said that I have a friend in London who has used a Brita filter for 5 years and descales far less than you and has gotten away with it so hopefully your process has it under control.

I think that if you can detect the funny metallic taste of pure RO water and find it objectionable then even when mixing it with tap water you'll be able to pick up on that "tang" and find it unpleasant.


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## RisingPower (Dec 27, 2009)

Ahhh sorry, that must have been a fair chunk of scale on the breaker. I know it always sputters a little, but not enough to be an issue or get near any important parts, I think









The thing is, I wonder whether just the steam when you're descaling, is enough to loosen any limescale on the breaker as I haven't had any issues since and it doesn't have the excessively long period where steam is coming out of the breaker before it seals.

It hopefully is under control, I don't find a kettle gets much scale with brita filtered water, so i'm hoping the alex is the same.

It's strange, it was just bland when I mixed ro to brita water, just tasted really flat, no matter what the ratio. I do wonder whether even with the tds after the brita filter whether it would have been enough to bring up the tds to a sensible amount.


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