# Cherub - First Impressions



## beedj

So it arrived yesterday! Some brief first observations....

Very sturdy cardboard box, maybe not quite as much internal packaging as I might have expected - but no problems.

All stainless surfaces on the machine were covered in a heavyweight protective film (which looked like it was applied to original stainless sheets, pre-cutting,and not by Fracino - allow at least half an hour to remove this - but be ready for stunning quality stainless surfaces revealed once removed (I went for stainless side panels).

It's certainly heavy (which hopefully is an indicator of build quality) - 22kg which is about 3.5 stone in old money! General impression is very high build quality, Machine casing, driptray arrangement, grouphead, controls, water outlet and steam wand all feel very sturdy/'heavyweight' and have a real quality feel about them. Definitely all feels commercial/professional quality, but doesn't look out of place in a domestic environment, as long as you have space!..... it's somehow bigger than it looks in pictures, and than what you expect from dimensions - dwarves my previous Gaggia; if you're considering this machine then be sure you have space!

The instructions haven't been updated to reflect the recent machine enhancements - eg. it wasn't immediately obvious how the water filter attached (see separate thread on this started by sandykt). Also a separate thread a few months back re quality of water tank cap is now redundant for the revised machines as the lid (though plastic) seems reasonable quality/match for rest of machine.

Had just one chance to try it before rushing off to work this morning - tried a single espresso but epic failure! I was a little rushed which won't have helped but water gushed through & left a very watery puck. Hopefully much more time over the weekend to get things going properly...


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## aphelion

So jealous!


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## shrink

great post

will be unpacking mine tonight

not looking forward to removing all the plastic wrap, although hoping because mine has the black side panels, they may not have any on them, as they have had to be painted.

I also get the sense based on the first post here, that i may need to tighten up my grind and/or tamp to get this right









Watch this space.


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## ronsil

Good luck to all you new Cherub owners. Would like to see some pictures sometime of the 'thing' in position.


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## shrink

i'll be getting some pics once its all set up and working


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## aphelion

Enjoy the new cherubs everyone


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## sandykt

Well I have spent the morning dialling in and the kitchen stinks of coffee. So far not much success just very bitter coffee. Will be making a second attempt later on today.

As yet, I have not steamed any milk so cannot say how that is - I want to perfect the coffee a bit more first.

First impressions, its a great machine, very sturdy and looks fantastic.


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## shrink

what do you think is causing bitterness?

perhaps you need to flush it a bit longer before shot. Bitterness could be too high a temperature, or too slow an extraction?


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## Jason1wood

So jealous of you new owners. By the time I save the funds for one, there'll be plenty of info from you guys.

Enjoy your new toy!


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## sandykt

shrink said:


> what do you think is causing bitterness?
> 
> perhaps you need to flush it a bit longer before shot. Bitterness could be too high a temperature, or too slow an extraction?


I have not managed to work out exactly what it is yet, I think it is the grind essentially as I am still dialling in.


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## jimbow

A coarser grind might help.

I find that after switching the machine on and leaving it for an hour I need to flush around 2 Fl.Oz through the group to bring it to temp.


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## shrink

ah ok... i forget that you havent ever used your new grinder with a machine, so would have no idea where it is in terms of grind.

Hoping i wont have to alter my iberital too far. I was getting reasonable shots from the gaggia i had, so hoping to start getting good stuff from this machine quickly


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## jimbow

shrink said:


> ...
> 
> Hoping i wont have to alter my iberital too far. I was getting reasonable shots from the gaggia i had, so hoping to start getting good stuff from this machine quickly


I was surprised as to how good the first shot on the Cherub was. Without changing the grind (or other brew parameters) from my Gaggia Baby Class the results were pretty good. I was of course using the same VST basket on both machines though which probably accounts for some of this. If I remember correctly, the shot on the Cherub was good but quite different from the Gaggia - it was more rounded and tasted richer.


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## shrink

its also worth noting that sandy is effectively dialing in a new machine and a grinder at the same time. My MC2 is dialed in for the gaggia, so should be at least in the ballpark for pulling a decent shot out the new machine.

Only 2 hours to go


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## sandykt

shrink said:


> ah ok... i forget that you havent ever used your new grinder with a machine, so would have no idea where it is in terms of grind.
> 
> Hoping i wont have to alter my iberital too far. I was getting reasonable shots from the gaggia i had, so hoping to start getting good stuff from this machine quickly


Well, I've now run out of beans and I am fast falling out with the SJ - I cannot get on with it. Dialling in is a nightmare and so I will have to wait for tomorrow when either (1) my Hasbean order will turn up (weather permitting) or (2) I will have to resort to supermarket beans to attempt more dialling in (a bit useless when they will not be the beans I will be using).

The Cherub is fantastic and I love it ..... still have not used the milk wand yet so more to come on that.


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## fatboyslim

Honestly the burrs will settle down but you need to run a minimum of 2kg of stale beans (not has beans) through. It's annoying but once they are seasoned you'll come to love the grind quality from the SJ


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## shrink

stale beans? so anything from a supermarket then


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## lookseehear

What kind of dialling in problems are you having Sandy? I've dialled an SJ in so many times I've forgotten what it was like the first time! I would be inclined to wind the burrs until they touch then back off a bit and start from there. With good (ie not supermarket) beans a 10mm adjustment can make the difference between an 18s shot and a 25s one. Are you weighing the grounds and espresso extracted?


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## sandykt

At the moment I hate it (that and the fact I have not been able to make a coffee for over 2 weeks now!). It does not matter which way the dial is pointing the grind is just not right. Don't be surprised if I sell the SJ before the end is out. I am not joking.


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## sandykt

lookseehear said:


> What kind of dialling in problems are you having Sandy? I've dialled an SJ in so many times I've forgotten what it was like the first time! I would be inclined to wind the burrs until they touch then back off a bit and start from there. With good (ie not supermarket) beans a 10mm adjustment can make the difference between an 18s shot and a 25s one. Are you weighing the grounds and espresso extracted?


I started off weighing both grounds and espresso. I have lost the will to live!


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## shrink

you'll get there in the end... its one of the things i quite like about the iberital (both its curse and its blessing) is the worm drive. Its very very accurate and gradual. But it is a pain sometimes!!

i like that on the big compak K10, its an adjustment a bit like the iberital, but with a digital screen readout of where your settings are, so you can very preciesely move between known settings for different beans.

I think money aside, its the grinder i'd want









http://easycoffee.com.au/Compak-K10-Conic-Fresh.html

small hopper, nice adjustment knob, dosing chute, built in dosing funnel, precise measurements, huge burrs.... perfect!!






hows that for fluffy, quick, precise grinding.... i want one!


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## Shakey

My New Cherub!


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## shrink

how interesting, yours appears to still have the original drip tray. The new ones are square. UNless the stainless model only comes with this nicely curved tray?


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## sandykt

I think the stainless steel ones have the curved drip tray whereas the coloured side panel machines have square drip trays.


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## Shakey

A few more details of new filter and lid.

I'm also experiencing a bitter product but.......early days!


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## shrink

interesting. I wonder if they have made the curved drip trays deeper in line with the deeper square drip trays?


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## Shakey

I wondered about that and wasn't sure if I had some sort of hybrid!


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## shrink

remember guys, its also a brand new machine... and as such you'll be getting all kinds of tastes from the new metals, some left over production chemical etc etc. I'd say you want to be running a few boilers worth of water through the group before getting too involved in tasting.

Its like when you get a new kettle... tea always tastes funny till the "newness" has worn off.


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## repeat

sandykt said:


> I started off weighing both grounds and espresso. I have lost the will to live!


It can be painful and you see the coffee run out before you get it right. I'd grind fine and choke the machine. Keep backing off 10mm at a time until you have it close and then fine tune. Once you have the SJ dialled in shouldn't move too much for other coffees. Good luck!


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## Shakey

Aesthetically very pleasing but very shallow.


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## shrink

yeah that led to the creation of the new square drip tray, which i hear is larger.. sandy will be able to tell us more, i havent opened mine yet

whats odd is that there is absolutely no reason whatsoever for yours to be that shallow... theres tons of space in there


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## Shakey

The only thing I can think of is so the drip tray fits under the exhaust valve under the group. Is the rectangular drip tray a 'drawer' style? That would allow a deeper tray to slide in under.


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## sandykt

I have got the stainless steel option so my drip tray is round and not that deep actually just under 2cm


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## shrink

Ah will let you know how mine is then


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## lookseehear

shrink said:


> remember guys, its also a brand new machine... and as such you'll be getting all kinds of tastes from the new metals, some left over production chemical etc etc. I'd say you want to be running a few boilers worth of water through the group before getting too involved in tasting.
> 
> Its like when you get a new kettle... tea always tastes funny till the "newness" has worn off.


Don't do what I did though and use 4L of Volvic flushing your boilers! My tap water is crap but I forgot I had a Brita under the sink!

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk HD


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## tribs

What exactly are your problems dialling in sandykt? Are your shot times / weights ballpark? How fresh are your beans? Have you seasoned your burrs (presuming its a new machine)? How are you dosing?

My SJ is difficult to dial in precisely. I tend to dial ballpark and then fine tune by dose size. So for example if I am getting a 25sec shot (of my desired output weight - say 28g from 18g) then if I want to get say 30secs I'd up my dose weight to 18.5g to increase resistance rather than change the grind setting. HTH.


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## sandykt

I am aiming for a 25 second shot using a single basket of 7g. The shot is either too fine and chokes the machine or is too coarse and runs too quickly. In both cases the espresso (not my preferred drink) is the most bitter coffee I have ever tasted.


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## Glenn

Try setting up using a double. Singles are difficult at the best of times.


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## sandykt

I tend to find doubles the hardest but I will try that tomorrow. I also find I am not that strong so placing a double into the gasket and securing it can be difficult for me hence why I tend to stick with singles.

Presumably once I have perfected the grind etc, I can reduce the dosage to use the single basket?


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## aphelion

sandykt said:


> I tend to find doubles the hardest but I will try that tomorrow. I also find I am not that strong so placing a double into the gasket and securing it can be difficult for me hence why I tend to stick with singles.
> 
> Presumably once I have perfected the grind etc, I can reduce the dosage to use the single basket?


Yep, i'd definitely recommend starting with the double shot too (should be a bit easier to dial in).

Have you fun a few tanks through to clean it all out?

I've also heard the SJ burrs needs quite a bit of breaking in

I'm sure it will all come together in a few days! Machines look lovely btw


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## sandykt

Tomorrow is another day and I will flush through a few tanks then attempt again to dial in. I have no work tomorrow (only housework and hey, who needs clean shirts for the office!)

I'm probably being impatient (which is me all over) and I know things will get better.


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## shrink

Hi sandy.. You don't want 25 seconds for a single. The 25 seconds is the time required to get enough extraction for a double. A single is only about 16 seconds or so. So you may just be extracting too long.

Mine is in place.... First impression... It's big.

Things I like:

-the black is gorgeous, it has a metallic sparkle through it, it looks deep and lustrous.

-it has a good weight to it

-it's quieter than I expected it to be. I thought it was gonna be a racket, but its quieter than my gaggia

-good steam power

-solid feeling portafilter

-big deep drip tray

-removable water tank

What I don't like:

-new drip tray fits pretty badly and is a bit short. My shot glasses end up very near the edge to catch the flow from the PF

-the lid for the water tank is piss poor and ill fitting. On mine you can still see the edges of the water tank. Mine also arrived looking quite scratched and scuffed.

-the baskets are quite poor too

-drip tray cover fits a bit squiffy. And if put on the way I think they intended, the hole for the pressure release valve is MILES off and would just spray water everywhere. C'mon fracino, how hard would it be to cut the hole in the right place!

-pressure dial is a bit squint

Ok ok, so I'm being a bit harsh, and overall it looks gorgeous, but these little things make the difference between a machine that feels premium (like the 400 quid more expensive rocket cellini) or something which feels a bit garden shed. However, it is this 400 quid cheaper, and that matters and means largely I'm willing to overlook the wee little foibles.

The water tank works well, as does the filter. The water tap is great too. The group head feels good, although mine was covered in a kinda glue like substance that I had I scrape off with a green pad... Again, how hard is it to check for these kind of things?

Nt had much chance to experiment with shots tonight, but my first pull was a double in 30 seconds. Was a touch sour, so suspect machine and PF were not fully up to temperature.

All in all, I'm happy. It looks great and I'm sure will be capable of superb results. Just wish fracino had the quality control to check the few things that kinda let the side down. Picture will follow


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## shrink

[FOOTNOTE][/FOOTNOTE]
View attachment 1885


Here is a pic for all those a that will be curious

And another

View attachment 1887


The black is now very black, and very sparkly... Not a great photo, but you get the idea

View attachment 1886


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## shrink

Also not sure why, but my pucks are getting stuck to the shower screen. Perhaps I'm over dosing


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## sandykt

shrink said:


> Also not sure why, but my pucks are getting stuck to the shower screen. Perhaps I'm over dosing


That has been happening to me too which is why i switched from a double (for dialling in purposes) to a single - i thought there was too much coffee in the basket and that was why it was getting stuck to the shower screen.


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## shrink

I think on the cherub the screen sticks down quite far. So over filling the basket is a bad idea. Because if the puck is making contact, when the pressure is released it will suck it up onto the screen.

So I will try dosing a little less.


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## shrink

Some pics of the poor drip tray alignment and how close the portafilter is to the edge

View attachment 1888


View attachment 1889


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## fatboyslim

Think I like my original version more lol. Pressure gauge is on the other side also. Best of luck new cherub owners with the dialing-in process.


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## Padder

Having seen those pics, I'm glad I never pulled the trigger on one. Very poor for something that cost 650 notes IMO


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## shrink

Pressure gague I'm neutral on... But the new drip tray is just as compromise as the old one, just for different reasons. They would have been better just making the Old drip tray bigger.

However a removable filtered water tank is a huge step up from the old one.

I must stress though, it still works perfectly, looks great in the flesh and there's nothing anywhere near this well specified for anywhere near the money. I'd still recommend one to anyone thinking of a machine like this. Everything apart from the drip tray feels very well made. Solid smooth and well machined.


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## shrink

Padder said:


> Having seen those pics, I'm glad I never pulled the trigger on one. Very poor for something that cost 650 notes IMO


Do remember, the next nearest machine costs about 400 quid more. It may cost 650 notes but for this level of spec that's a bargain. A bit like a dacia sandero being expensive in general at £5000 but still crazy cheap for a car. It's all about perspective.

For £1000 I wouldn't accept this machines oddities.. But at this price... I'm willing to accept a bit of hand built eccentricity

When set up, this is still a visually stunning machine and will be capable of superb results


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## Padder

shrink said:


> Do remember, the next nearest machine costs about 400 quid more. It may cost 650 notes but for this level of spec that's a bargain. A bit like a dacia sandero being expensive in general at £5000 but still crazy cheap for a car. It's all about perspective.
> 
> For £1000 I wouldn't accept this machines oddities.. But at this price... I'm willing to accept a bit of hand built eccentricity
> 
> When set up, this is still a visually stunning machine and will be capable of superb results


Fair enough. My view is that the machines shouldn't be going out of the factory if they're not right. There's no excuse for re-designing a product but doing it poorly. It wouldn't cost them any more to do it right than it is to do it wrong. Would annoy the hell out of me if things didn't fit or were a compromise due to poor design.

Each to their own though and if you can live with it then fair enough, me I'd be speaking to the retailer or Francino about it


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## shrink

I may enquire about the drip tray... It's really my main bugbear

All they need to do, was cut the hole bigger in the drip tray cover.

Problem solved


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## funinacup

They have obviously tried to reduce the number of parts they're producing, so the drip tray from the Piccino fits (badly).

I'd contact them and express your thoughts - they are usually very open to user input.

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## shrink

I agree Michael, this is obviously a tray from another machine.

All it needs to fix it, is for the hole under the pressure exhaust to be made a bit longer, problem solved!

If it comes to it, I may just do that myself with a drummel. Or attach a small hose to the end which will tuck down into the hole.

On the plus.. The drip tray is a decent size


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## Southpaw

Padder said:


> Fair enough. My view is that the machines shouldn't be going out of the factory if they're not right. There's no excuse for re-designing a product but doing it poorly. It wouldn't cost them any more to do it right than it is to do it wrong. Would annoy the hell out of me if things didn't fit or were a compromise due to poor design.
> 
> Each to their own though and if you can live with it then fair enough, me I'd be speaking to the retailer or Francino about it


That new drip tray doesn't look right, it looks like you'd struggle to fit a 8oz cup under the PF without it falling off.


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## Shakey

The drip tray on the silver version has the hole aligned directly under the pressure exhaust and, because it curves out, gives a little more space for shot glass, it's just far too shallow.


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## shrink

Yeah, that's a much better design... Were it not for it being too shallow

My photo exaggerates it a little.. It's easy to get a cup under it and its secure... It's not helped by the fact the double spouts on the included PF sit quite far back. I may see about changing them to ones like my gaggia had.

But yes I can see your drip tray is generally a better designed item


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## Shakey

Shrink,

It would be interesting to hear what Fracino had to say about it. How does it fair in use?


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## Glenn

It looks like the spouts are on backwards, hence they look too close to the edge of the drip tray.

Turn them around 180 degrees

They will then be positioned in the middle










However, for other machines this would be the correct way around (eg those that have a bigger drip tray)


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## shrink

Will they still be tight if I rotate them though? I'm switching to a naked pf anyway


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## Glenn

They should be, but you may need to use tape thread (PTFE tape) if screw on.

Are the spouts not breakaway spouts?


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## shrink

Well they took a firm tamp so I assume they are screw on. Will check tomorrow.


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## funinacup

Defo screw ons. They might be difficult to get off - most likely need to pop them in a vice!

Michael

Fun in a Cup Coffee Training


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## jimbow

Turning the spouts around would give you more room but bear in mind it would affect how the portafilter sits when placed on a work top (if this is a concern). The portafilter has an angled handle which creates a tripod with the spouts when on a work top. This is designed to ensure the filter basket is level on the worktop for dosing and tamping.


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## tribs

Yeah, I'd be tempted to persevere until you get a naked PF. And also take it up with Fracino. It looks to me if you switch the spouts round there might not be much room at the back


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## shrink

Have emailed fracino re: drip tray


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## Padder

One of the problems with getting an early model of the "improved" design. Maybe they've rushed it out but I'm sure these issues will be addressed


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## shrink

I'm sure too. Given a night to get over the few little things that bugged me. I'm left with a feeling of pride over a gorgeous machine.

Not that I can make a decent drink yet!


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## aphelion

shrink said:


> I'm sure too. Given a night to get over the few little things that bugged me. I'm left with a feeling of pride over a gorgeous machine.
> 
> Not that I can make a decent drink yet!


Niggles aside, I think they look really nice..

Can't wait to get mine soon


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## shrink

Oh it's still a great machine.. And having tuned in my grind, I'm getting good results now. Started off sour, then went bitter, now it's pretty spot on. When you know the machine temp is consistent, it makes sorting your grind much much easier.

Another observation. When new, the portafilter would hardly turn and at lock, was at about 7 o clock. Now at 6 it started leaking a little and full lock is now at about 5 o clock. I guess the gasket beds in and compresses from new.


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## sandykt

I am still struggling on with the dialling in!!!!


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## aphelion

Is there any way (out of the box) to check what the temperature is in the boiler? or at the group?

(short of using your own thermometer)


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## sandykt

The steaming wand is pretty good and gets up to temperature very quickly. I'm going to use the 2 tip steam hole tomorrow to see how that goes.


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## shrink

Let me know how you get on. The steam power in the cherub is brutal and the 4 tip is hard to wrangle.

I may end up buying the two hole tip


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## beedj

Hi what pressures are you seeing on your cherub's ? Instructions say ready at 1.0-1.2 bar but mine seems to be rarely getting above 1.0


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## jimbow

Mine tops out at 1.0 bar with 0.85 at the low end


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## shrink

Mine gets to about 1.1 then boiler cuts off and it slowly drops to about 0.8 and then back up to 1.1 etc


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## jimbow

aphelion said:


> Is there any way (out of the box) to check what the temperature is in the boiler? or at the group?
> 
> (short of using your own thermometer)


You can calculate the temperature of the water in the boiler as a function of your height above sea level and the pressure read from the machine's dial. It will probably be in the region of 115-125 degrees C. Unfortunately, this does not really indicate much about the temperature of the brew water as that is fed from a separate circuit. On some Cherub machines, the group head has a hex bolt on the front which can be replaced with a temperature probe to give an approximate reading of the group head temperature. Alternatively, you could use a temperature probe and Scace device (or polystyrene cup method) to understand the machine's temperature profile.


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## beedj

shrink said:


> I think on the cherub the screen sticks down quite far. So over filling the basket is a bad idea. Because if the puck is making contact, when the pressure is released it will suck it up onto the screen.
> 
> So I will try dosing a little less.


Sandy/Shrink, how much are you dosing ? - I'm also getting fragments of the puck sticking to the shower screen, dosing what I thought was standard 14g for a double. I'm tamping firmly to c.30lb (though measured via bathroom scales so not the most accurate). Also ending up with a wetter puck than I used to get on my Gaggia though not sure that's an issue or not.


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## shrink

i think some sticking is ok... you're never going to leave a perfectly clean shower screen every time. I just rinse it off after each shot by flushing quickly. That takes care of it. in an ideal world, a puck should be expanding and just touching the shower screen the no more . so you're nearly always going to leave some behind.

mine has stopped sticking completely now though


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## jimbow

That's good to hear Shrink. As you said earlier, the shower screen protrudes quite far into the basket on the Cherub which limits the size of the dose especially compared to Gaggia machines. To illustrate, I would recommend dosing no more than 15g in a 15g VST basket or 18g in a 18g VST basket. Depending upon grind, it may not even be possible to dose up to these amounts. On a Gaggia machine I was able to fit at least 1g more into each basket.


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## shrink

I suspect that using the larger gasket and my naked PF the shower screen will sit 0.5mm further away, so that should help too


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## beedj

shrink said:


> I suspect that using the larger gasket and my naked PF the shower screen will sit 0.5mm further away, so that should help too


is the larger gasket a standard option then?


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## shrink

i believe it comes with an 8mm gasket, which works worth the standard portafilter.

I want to use a naked PF, and its lugs are smaller, so i need a larger gasket to get the PF to lock into place. So i've ordered an 8.5mm

One of the advantages, is that this will distance the PF slightly from the shower, leaving just a little more room.


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## stevenlaughton

Hi

I just received my cherub a couple of days ago, I have been looking through this thread and have looked at my portafilter and drip tray and noticed that they are not like shrink's, maybe you could contact francino or something to see if they could swap the cover for the drip tray


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## shrink

yeah i believe fracino are sending me a new drip tray and they have sensibly started putting the PF the other way around

i'm a little annoyed that i received a machine that clearly hadnt been properly thought out, and that they have since fixed all these issues. But i guess thats always a risk with early adoption of new revisions.

I use a naked PF now so its not too relevant to me.


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## shrink

The portafilter spouts just unscrew... And mine had a washer on it to make it sit with the spouts nearest the handle. Removed the washer and screwed back on... It now sits perfectly with the spouts in the way


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## abrexis

I'm going to ask a really stupid question, but my Cherub just arrived today so it's too early to break it! When taking the plastic covering off the stainless steel, do you have to unscrew anything to get it off at the exhaust area?


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## jimbow

I didn't - I just carefully pulled it all off.


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## sandykt

I just pulled off wrapping too.


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## Callum_T

abrexis said:


> I'm going to ask a really stupid question, but my Cherub just arrived today so it's too early to break it! When taking the plastic covering off the stainless steel, do you have to unscrew anything to get it off at the exhaust area?


20mm spanner (I'm think) if you got abit of plastic under that exhaust nut, you'd have to be fairly dense to mess it up. Just undo - remove anything that's stuck and tighten - don't overtighten as it makes that shiny shiny cover sit funny.


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## frustin

so are you all getting lovely non-bitter, creamy espressos?


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## abrexis

Thanks all - I hoped it would all pull off, but it seems pretty stuck so will go with unscrewing.


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## series530

I've been dropping hints to my wife about changing machines and the cherub is probably the front runner.

Replacing the Gaggia, it appears to be pretty big. One concern that I have is filling it with water. I will need to put it on a work top under a wall cupboard. I have about a 44cm height difference between the top of the work top and the bottom of the cupboard (which, height wise is OK) but about 31cm from the front of the worktop to perpendicular drop where the cupboard is. How far from the front of the drip tray is the cap for filling the unit?

I know its a big tank but the unit is heavy and it may be difficult to pull out if my wife needs to refill the tank when I am away.

Also, I'm really confused about the various models which seem to be displayed on the web. I guess it is a function of the recent design change over. The all stainless steel looks nice (is that also known as the bespoke on some sites?) yet the black would probably look better with our work tops. Where did you buy your machines and which model did you specify?

I just wonder if, given peoples concerns about the size of the unit, it may look very big? The Gaggia looses itself in the kitchen. Our black Mignon grinder is small and, to my eyes beautiful. Having had your machines for a while, do the dwarf or do they blend into their environment?

And finally, a few weeks in, are you hating your machines, is it a slow burning love affair or does it feel like rampant love and sex every time you turn and use your machines? Or, less metaphorically, how are you getting on a few weeks down the line?

thanks


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## shrink

Ok here we go...

1: yep, it is pretty big, I have mine under cabinets too and I do one of two things. I either use a small jug and just fill it up in situ, or I can pull it forward to the edge of the counter and then the tank comes out. It's a 3 litre tank though, so don't expect to be filling it up often!

2: there are only really two styles now. The stainless one, which has a rather small rounded drip tray, and the black or coloured ones which have significantly larger drip trays. I have a black one and love it, the black is actually sparkly and has a metallic glitter through it, so its not just flat black. The photos never capture just now nice it looks in the flesh. I'm glad I chose it and saves myself the money, drip tray woes, and cleaning hassle of an all stainless model.

3: I've grown to appreciate mine more every time I use it. It's a great machine once you get the hang of it.


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## Steve_S_T

I'm lucky in that my wife loves the look of our Heavenly as much as I do, and it fits nicely into a corner of our kitchen, but I can't imagine having a kitchen big enough for it to blend in. On the other hand it doesn't look as big as I imagined (feared) it would based on the dimensions. Not sure how much bigger the Cherub is but the Heavenly is 500mm deep, 50 or 100mm less than the depth of most kitchen worktops, so that gives you some idea of scale, but fitting it into a corner at an angle has certainly helped "soften" the impact of it's size.


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## gman147

Picking up NEW Cherub tomorrow morning (hopefully it will have arrived)

Want to ask, what's this about having to unscrew to get plastic protection off?

Biggest question - As I have never used a HX machine, how much water should I be purging just before brewing to allow temp to come down to brew temp?


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## jimbow

I usually give my machine an hour or so to warm up after switching on (I use a timer plug so I can set it to come on automatically). I then purge about 2 Fl Oz from the group prior to grinding, tamping and pulling my shot. If you have been using the machine recently then you may not need to flush before the next shot.

If you look at some of the photos under my profile you can see some pictures of the Cherub in my kitchen and pictures of the Gaggia Baby Class it replaced. It provides a size comparison of the two machines.


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## gman147

Great pics Jim, before I hadn't really got that new toy feeling, but now I have after seeing your pics!! Feel like Santa is en route


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## gman147

Got the cherub! WOO!

Its huge!!! Looks great! Plastic is a real bitch, im gonna warm it up and take remainder of plastic off tomorrow. Im dying for a cappu!!


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## series530

Thanks to everyone who has replied to my submission earlier. It's great to get a feel for these machines in real life. I would still love to see a picture of a machine side on as everything tends to be from the front or from an oblique position. From a marketing perspective, and with its size, I guess that this is very deliberate.

For me, this is the most likely candidate and it will probably be a black sided machine as opposed to stainless steel or a bespoke colour. It should match the colouring of the Mignon and our black granite work tops.

I'm still trying to get my head around the size of the drip tray. Size wise, the latest units shipping (and I assume that it will be the square fronted drip tray rather than the semi circular one): does the drip tray literally sit on the front of the unit or does it extend back in and underneath? Being HX and needing a certain amount of flushing I'm concerned that it will fill up in a heart beat. Is it bigger than the Gaggia Classic drip tray (which is my point of reference)?

I'm all but ready to place the order... I just need to convince my wife .... not difficult, generally.

Those who have purchased recently, where did you buy from and how quick is delivery at the moment?

thanks again.


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## gman147

Espresso Underground - cant recommend highly enough.

Not sure about other models but my drip tray is huge. More than I will ever require in one visit as I would never leave water lingering in there after useage. I have the black model.


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## fatboyslim

Another recommendation for Peter at Espresso Underground. Such an nice guy and so helpful. He recently sent me some beans for free!


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## shrink

Hopefully Peter is feeling the loyalty









Yesterday I upped the pressure stat on my cherub to 1.2 bar. We didn't think it was brewing quite hot enough

Easily done


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## fatboyslim

Take case off and tighten a nut somewhere?


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## shrink

Yep, top off... Pressure stat is right at top. Turn it clockwise and check the pressure gauge.

Now my dead band is only between about 0.8 and 1.2 bar.


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## Shakey

It would have to be Peter at Espresso Underground for me too. Its a lot of dish.


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## series530

I've just been given a green light to make a purchase. I'll be calling Peter on Monday!


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## shrink

Good work!


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## Shakey

Dish? Dosh


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## shrink

He says pitato, I say potato. Lets call the whole thing off


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## gman147

Tell you what, the steaming power of this Cherub is mental!! I'm foaming milk in like 10 seconds and having to lift out so early as the temp rises so so quickly!

Im in LOVE! The beans im using are same batch that I used with the Silvia so I have a great benchmark and I have to say, the beans taste sooo much smoother.

As for dialling in, using my MC2, I only needed to do 3 anti-clockwise 180deg turns and Im bang on 28 secs @ 18g.


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## series530

If you haven't already taken a trip there, have a surf over to here:

http://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/fracino-factory-tour-t24764.html

Great to see British engineering is still alive and kicking!


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## shrink

It was seeing this that made me realise how similar a cherub and londinium are, having looked inside mine, the innards appear identical.

The only real differences I can see are the side panels, drip tray and the lever group (which is really the focus)

Wonder if a londinium drip tray will fit a cherub


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## series530

Perhaps they may even throw in that big long handle thingy so that I can steady myself when I am frothing the milk :=)

I remember seeing the internal view of a Londinuim on one of the threads but couldn't find it when I was looking yesterday - I had the same thing in mind with regard to the innards. Please could somebody point me toward one of the picture heavy threads showing the internals.


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## shrink

It's in that link that you posted yourself like 2 posts ago


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## series530

shrink said:


> It's in that link that you posted yourself like 2 posts ago


no, the one I'm thinking of shows a side on view of the Londinium through the viewing glass with the boiler and pipework polished to perfection. I'm pretty sure it was on this forum somewhere.


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## Glenn

There are some on *my Flickr* as well


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## series530

Thanks for posting the link to the pictures Glenn. Nicely taken too!

This morning I contacted Peter and had a very enjoyable chat with him. It concluded with money changing hands and an order for a Cherub was placed. I also purchased the two hole steam wand tip as Peter, as well as many on here, have commented regarding the ferocity of the four hole version.

I can only agree with what others have said: Peter is very friendly, approachable, helpful and his prices are competitive. I have no hesitation in recommending him and would like to thank everyone who has suggested him as the right person from which to buy my new espresso machine.

I'll have to wait patiently for a delivery now. Not a big deal as I am away on business for much of the remainder of this week. I just hope the courier is willing to deposit the package inside the house if in the event that I am still away and my wife is there to receive it on our behalf.


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## fatboyslim

Did you mention the coffee forums? I think we make up 90% of his domestic sales

Sent from my cm_tenderloin using Tapatalk HD


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## series530

I did mention Coffee Forums several times - and how many people on there had recommended him. I'm always keen to promote something which is good.


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## 4515

I'll be ordering my Cherub when I get home tonight. Had a chat with Peter today - a really helpful chap who didnt push me either way in my decision. Thanks to all for sharing their experiences of espresso underground, Peter and the Cherub.

Wife was fine with me buying the new machine. I just need to pluck up the courage to tell her how much bigger it will be before it arrives


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## series530

working dog said:


> I'll be ordering my Cherub when I get home tonight. Had a chat with Peter today - a really helpful chap who didnt push me either way in my decision. Thanks to all for sharing their experiences of espresso underground, Peter and the Cherub.
> 
> Wife was fine with me buying the new machine. I just need to pluck up the courage to tell her how much bigger it will be before it arrives


Hi Andrew,

I'm pleased that you had a positive discussion with Peter and that there is room for a deal with him.

Please bear in mind ....women have no perception of size. Just give her an over sized dimension and she will think she is in heaven after its properly installed


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## fatboyslim

working dog said:


> I'll be ordering my Cherub when I get home tonight. Had a chat with Peter today - a really helpful chap who didnt push me either way in my decision. Thanks to all for sharing their experiences of espresso underground, Peter and the Cherub.
> 
> Wife was fine with me buying the new machine. I just need to pluck up the courage to tell her how much bigger it will be before it arrives


Best of luck with that! What colour did you go for? Always a bonus being able to match the side panels of the Cherub with her kitchen design schemes.


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## shrink

i like my black









I think michael (funinacup) was surprised by how sparkly the black is! plus its allowed me to get lots of nice matching accessories. Black knock box, black tamper. Yet gorgeously offset by bright red hasbean towels and cups. love it!


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## 4515

fatboyslim said:


> Best of luck with that! What colour did you go for? Always a bonus being able to match the side panels of the Cherub with her kitchen design schemes.


I've gone for black. Will post a pic in situ when it arrives. All stainless would be too much shiny and my tiles are multi coloured so I wouldn't be able to decide which to match it to (plus I'm a tight Northerner !)


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## gman147

I've finally removed the plastic covering from the top after much tearing and ripping and getting nowhere. Just undo the 4 little allen screws and the top lifts off a treat. Only have the tiniest piece of plastic still attached to the pressure valve. How does it come off? Just a spanner?


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## Callum_T

poona said:


> I've finally removed the plastic covering from the top after much tearing and ripping and getting nowhere. Just undo the 4 little allen screws and the top lifts off a treat. Only have the tiniest piece of plastic still attached to the pressure valve. How does it come off? Just a spanner?


20mm if its on the group solenoid. 20mm is awkward size so it's probably meant to be an imperial sized job - 20mm works a treat. Mines 2nd hand and it still had plastic under that nut ... Lol


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## gman147

How are you getting on with the steaming Callum? You using the 4 x 1.5 also?


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## series530

Mine has arrived today . Pretty good given that I only ordered it from Peter on Monday.

As my wife said earlier, I have a dilemma now : coffee machine or install and play the new Simcity 2013 game? Plenty of time for both me thinks!


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## mookielagoo

working dog said:


> I'll be ordering my Cherub when I get home tonight. Had a chat with Peter today - a really helpful chap who didnt push me either way in my decision. Thanks to all for sharing their experiences of espresso underground, Peter and the Cherub.
> 
> Wife was fine with me buying the new machine. I just need to pluck up the courage to tell her how much bigger it will be before it arrives


Nice one Ian! (lucky!)

I'll be chopping in my classic at some point too - just one question...did you ever consider the Exobar Office Lever? I'm not sure which one to put on my wish list - has anyone else had a similar dilemma?

Mark


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## Callum_T

poona said:


> How are you getting on with the steaming Callum? You using the 4 x 1.5 also?


Poona I found the 4x1.5 way too rowdy in small amounts of milk, I use the 2x1mm it's relatively slow but it means you can get good texture, a little more umph would help get the whirlpool going though.

Shrink has a spare 2x1mm hole tip, tell the man a joke! (Relates to the buy/sell thread if you hadn't seen it)


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## gman147

Callum_T said:


> Poona I found the 4x1.5 way too rowdy in small amounts of milk, I use the 2x1mm it's relatively slow but it means you can get good texture, a little more umph would help get the whirlpool going though.
> 
> Shrink has a spare 2x1mm hole tip, tell the man a joke! (Relates to the buy/sell thread if you hadn't seen it)


Yeah Peter sent me a 2x1mm so will use that at weekend as I've just literally tried again with the 4.1.5 and its too wild for my skill level I can't tame it


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## series530

What are the tips made from? I'm wondering if, were we to have spares and a suitable drill, a 1mm hole could be relieved out with a 1.5mm drill and still remain hygenic.

If they end up rusting as a result, it wont work.


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## SweeneyTodd

mookielagoo said:


> Nice one Ian! (lucky!)
> 
> I'll be chopping in my classic at some point too - just one question...did you ever consider the Exobar Office Lever? I'm not sure which one to put on my wish list - has anyone else had a similar dilemma?
> 
> Mark


I've had both - albeit only briefly.

I started off with a Cherub. I was unlucky in that the espresso pump switch broke within the first 48 hours. I had the stainless steel model which has an incredibly shallow (approx 1cm from memory) drip tray. For the short time I used the Cherub I was pleased with it but I had reservations about whether the drip tray would start to really irritate over time. When the switch broke so quickly, I took the opportunity to return it for a full refund and do some more research.

I then bought an Expobar Office Leva HX (not the dual boiler model) from a catering suppliers in Cumbria (as Bellabarista where out of stock and likely to remain so for some time). I have been really pleased with it and am happy to have been able to swap.

The drip tray is huge, the pump is, if anything, slighlty quieter than the Cherub and, now I have seen both in our kitchen, I think it's a much nicer looking machine (although of course that is wholly subjective). I also like the idea of the lever-operated espresso pump, it allows me to play with pre-infusion times (if my palate ever gets that clever to appreciate the differences). I also just prefer that little lever action as opposed to a fairly heavy duty switch - in the way you might prefer the way one car drives over another - I don't think this style of switch is inherrently any more reliable.

I think that both machines are capable of making excellent espresso and are very capable steamers and have otherwise broadly similar features. After that it comes down to budget and personal preference. I occasionally wonder whether I should have given the Cherub another go (but the standard model with the larger drip tray) because so many users on here rave about them - with good reason. But on reflection, I am happy with my choice even though it was an extra couple of hundred quid - I just love how it looks in the kitchen and I enjoy using the machine.


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