# Do I need a new grinder?



## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

Hi all

I started reading up a bit more on making the perfect espresso and I saw that there is a *general consensus that pulling a double espresso shot should take 20-30 secs to extract*. However, on my current set up, however, it takes just 9 seconds for a double. However, the confusing thing is that sometimes the shot is quite bitter, which is something I hear you tend to get if it is overextracted and already too fine. So, I'm pretty confused: I want to get the full flavour from the beans I'm using and try and adhere to this 20-30 second rule of thumb, but it seems it is already pretty fine and I don't want it to taste even more bitter by making the grind even finer (for which I'd also need to upgrade my grinder).

Could it be something I am doing wrong with the way I am dosing and tamping? I have tried to stick to the right weight of coffee and my tamping seems as it should be.

Attaching a photo of the grind I am getting with my *De'Longhi KG79 Professional Burr Grinder. *When I rub this in between my fingers the coffee doesn't really stick much as it would with a slightly finer grind.

I am then running that through my trusty *Gaggia Classic* (recently refurbed).

Would really appreciate some guidance from those far more expert than me!

Kind regards,

Luke


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

You need a better grinder which can grind finer and more consistently.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Plus one for the above. the grind looks coarse and inconsistent.


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## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

Thanks @El carajillo and @MediumRoastSteam

I did wonder.

However, do you have an explanation as to why the espresso tasted a bit bitter?

They are decent beans and my understanding is that bitterness can come from overextraction. But isn't that what is meant to happen if the grind is already too fine?

Kind regards,
Luke


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## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

I also just realised (learning so much right now!) ... I have a dual wall basket, which I am using with the plastic crema accessory that Gaggia shipped with the machine.

However, I am reading now that this should be thrown in the bin and swapped for a *single wall *basket.

I imagine this is also having some effect on the espresso coming out!


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Before I even read the post I was 95% sure the answer would be 'yes' ... and it is.

What beans are they?


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## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

@KingoftheHeath thanks a lot for your thoughts.

The beans are Waitrose Sumatra Mandheling.

Still confused why the bitter taste in the espresso given that this is meant to come from overextraction, but maybe there is another explanation for it?

I will try and replace my pressurised basket for a regular single wall one and see if that also makes a difference.

In terms of grinder I really can't justify going above £150 and the Sage Dose Control Pro (the non-LED one) SCG600BTR looks like my best bet I think.


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

What are the beans ? When were they roasted ? how are you storing them ? Are they a dark roast ? Are they arabica or a blend (mix).

You need scales to weigh coffee in AND brew out. Do not use the double walled & crema nipple. You may have to change the setting on the OPV.

If it is set up for the D/ walled basket it is probably set to 15 bar NOT 9 - 10 bar SEE adjusting OPV over pressure valve.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Yes this is not really suitable for espresso.

The answer re bitterness is 2 fold, it could be the beans or it could be your palate. Under extracted espresso is often sour, over is bitter but a lot of people suffer with bitter sour confusion. It could be what you are tasting is a sour note but feel it as bitter.

Have a google of bitter sour confusion.


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## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

Hi @El carajillo

The beans are Sumatra Mandheling from Waitrose. Its a 4 out of 5 on roast. I started to put them in the freezer (though I realise the Jury seems to be out on whether fridge is good enough). They are Arabica.

I will be sure to weigh the coffee and stop using that silly double walled basket. I will look into whether I can change the OPV on the Gaggia Classic. Thanks for the tip on that.

It sounds like whatever I end up doing, I should probably still get a new grinder.



El carajillo said:


> What are the beans ? When were they roasted ? how are you storing them ? Are they a dark roast ? Are they arabica or a blend (mix).
> 
> You need scales to weigh coffee in AND brew out. Do not use the double walled & crema nipple. You may have to change the setting on the OPV.
> 
> If it is set up for the D/ walled basket it is probably set to 15 bar NOT 9 - 10 bar SEE adjusting OPV over pressure valve.


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## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Yes this is not really suitable for espresso.
> 
> The answer re bitterness is 2 fold, it could be the beans or it could be your palate. Under extracted espresso is often sour, over is bitter but a lot of people suffer with bitter sour confusion. It could be what you are tasting is a sour note but feel it as bitter.
> 
> Have a google of bitter sour confusion.


 Thanks @Black Cat Coffee Maybe it was sour and therefore underextracted! That would explain it.

It sounds like everyone is definitely agreeing that I need a new grinder though.

For £150 the best I can see right now is Sage SCG600BTR The Dose Control Pro Coffee Grinder, Black Truffle - would be really grateful for any alternative suggestions though!


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

LukeH said:


> Thanks @Black Cat Coffee Maybe it was sour and therefore underextracted! That would explain it.
> 
> It sounds like everyone is definitely agreeing that I need a new grinder though.
> 
> For £150 the best I can see right now is Sage SCG600BTR The Dose Control Pro Coffee Grinder, Black Truffle - would be really grateful for any alternative suggestions though!


 Buy used. Look for something like a Eureka Mignon or Mazzer Super Jolly (a commercial grinder so large but very good).

Or why not go for a hand grinder, £150 would get you something very nice that would produce more consistent results than a new electric grinder in that budget.


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## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

Thanks @BlackCatCoffee - The Eureka looks great (I need a fairly small one for my worktop) but I can't see myself getting one for anything near £150 even secondhand.

Would Sage Dose Control Pro really not do it? ?

I wouldn't know where to start with a hand grinder but I'll take a look on the boards here.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

LukeH said:


> Thanks @BlackCatCoffee - The Eureka looks great (I need a fairly small one for my worktop) but I can't see myself getting one for anything near £150 even secondhand.
> 
> Would Sage Dose Control Pro really not do it? ?
> 
> I wouldn't know where to start with a hand grinder but I'll take a look on the boards here.


 Not used the Sage personally, hopefully someone that has will be along. I believe they do not get stellar reviews for espresso though.

Trust me, what you do not want to do is by a grinder that is slightly better and then want to upgrade again in 2 months time.


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

The comment about buying something less than stellar now, and having to upgrade soon is a very pertinent one. Been there, done that, it's not a good way to go.

There's a hack for the KG79 to allow it to do a semi-acceptable espresso grind. My suggestion is to do that for now, and save up for a Mignon or similar. Having a fixation on "must fix it now" together with a limited budget is a path to unhappiness. A good espresso grinder is 300+ for something small, tho there's always the Iberital MC2 when those get back in stock.


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## cuprajake (Mar 30, 2020)

If you want to hand grind then theres the feld47 or 1zspresso pro. Both are £200

Or machine wise there is the mignion silenzio from black cat above at 300 delivered which i almost went for and will prob kick myself for.

I generally make 2 brews at a time so hand grinding is not too bad, might be a bigger at xmas when family comes round ?


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

Feld 47 is only £140-50 I think. Mine was anyway. In and out of stock at the mo though.

I get much finer/more consistent espresso grind than your pic OP. I'll do a pic tomorrow not having any more coffee today 

IMO if it's just for you or you +1 hand grinding is fine or even quite satisfying. Minor PITA with any more people than that on a regular basis.


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## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

allikat said:


> The comment about buying something less than stellar now, and having to upgrade soon is a very pertinent one. Been there, done that, it's not a good way to go.
> 
> There's a hack for the KG79 to allow it to do a semi-acceptable espresso grind. My suggestion is to do that for now, and save up for a Mignon or similar. Having a fixation on "must fix it now" together with a limited budget is a path to unhappiness. A good espresso grinder is 300+ for something small, tho there's always the Iberital MC2 when those get back in stock.


 Thanks @allikat - found an article on Ibertial site very helpful. I did try the hack on my Dehlongi but it since broke (which is why I bought a replacement one again before I knew it wouldn't give a fine enough grind).

@Cuprajake - thanks a lot for suggestions on hand grinders.

and @grumble - would love to see the grind when you get the chance.

What a lovely community ?


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

No worries. I think you'll notice a big difference with a better grinder. Your grounds look more like what I would do for pour over with a few finer bits dotted around.

I would second the sour/bitter confusion comments - when I've had shots come through that quick they've been sour to the point of undrinkable.

BTW I saw something about fridge storage, don't do it!


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## LukeH (Nov 8, 2018)

grumble said:


> No worries. I think you'll notice a big difference with a better grinder. Your grounds look more like what I would do for pour over with a few finer bits dotted around.
> 
> I would second the sour/bitter confusion comments - when I've had shots come through that quick they've been sour to the point of undrinkable.
> 
> BTW I saw something about fridge storage, don't do it!


 Oh interesting! Leave it out in an airtight container instead? @grumble


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

LukeH said:


> Oh interesting! Leave it out in an airtight container instead? @grumble


Yes.

Leave the beans out in an air tight container. Don't put in the fridge, unless you want your beans smelling of cheese.


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

Also too much moisture in a fridge I think. Cheese-scented moisture, mmmm ?


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

The grinder will go a fair bit finer but this is the right setting for this coffee on my little Delonghi Dedica to get around 30 secs extraction.

You can see some clumps but the actual grinds are fairly fine.

@LukeH


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## LukeH998 (Apr 24, 2020)

@LukeH Hello Luke. I don't have anything useful to add, except I am also a Luke H, and I am also questioning whether my KG79 is a good enough grinder. I'm grinding for pour over, but don't think i'm getting good enough grind consistency. Small world though !


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Good coffee starts with good freshly roasted beans

there is no reason to keep beans in the fridge ,

and the better the grinder the easier it is going to be (cheap secondhand commercial best £)

weigh in weigh out or how can you repeat your master recipe .

enjoy the journey

TCL


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

LukeH998 said:


> @LukeH Hello Luke. I don't have anything useful to add, except I am also a Luke H, and I am also questioning whether my KG79 is a good enough grinder. I'm grinding for pour over, but don't think i'm getting good enough grind consistency. Small world though !


 The KG79 won't go fine enough for espresso, it's certainly adequate for pourover though.

Maybe start a thread in the brewed coffee forum, outlining your method & problem.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

LukeH said:


> Thanks @Black Cat Coffee Maybe it was sour and therefore underextracted! That would explain it.
> It sounds like everyone is definitely agreeing that I need a new grinder though.
> For £150 the best I can see right now is Sage SCG600BTR The Dose Control Pro Coffee Grinder, Black Truffle - would be really grateful for any alternative suggestions though!


Over extraction is taking too much soluble flavour from the coffee?! That's exactly what you've done,so the result is bitter. So I think your taste notes are right.

If your grind is too coarse, for espresso, it will always be allowing too much water to pass too quickly. Similar to running a well ground coffee for too long.

Under extraction is when you stop a shot too soon, it's not what's happening here.

Some guidance.

https://www.baristahustle.com/blog/coffee-extraction-and-how-to-taste-it/

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Bitterness doesn't mean overextraction; sourness doesn't mean underextraction. You can have bitter and sour flavours without being over/under extracted. Over and under extraction are fairly obvious exeriences that go beyond a bitter or sour flavour note.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

richwade80 said:


> Over extraction is taking too much soluble flavour from the coffee?! That's exactly what you've done,so the result is bitter. So I think your taste notes are right.
> 
> If your grind is too coarse, for espresso, it will always be allowing too much water to pass too quickly. Similar to running a well ground coffee for too long.
> 
> ...


 I could've totally misunderstood here.....it has been a long day......but are you saying that too coarse ground coffee that allows the water to flow through too quickly will be over extracted even if the shot volume is correct?


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I could've totally misunderstood here.....it has been a long day......but are you saying that too coarse ground coffee that allows the water to flow through too quickly will be over extracted even if the shot volume is correct?


Everything I've read suggest this is right... but I do doubt myself still.

As I understand it, over extraction is when you are passing water through the coffee beyond the point where there is any additional (beneficial) flavour to get, so it eventually becomes bitter, weak, watery etc.

If it's coarse, there is less surface area so the soluble flavours are extracted quickly, and shot time has to be shorter.

Volume is kind of irrelevant - If you keep to the same dose and grind, then you would increase or decrease yield to suit extraction for any given grind and dose.

In this OPs case, in theory at least, you'd have to decrease yield (shorter time) to get a better taste. In practice this might not work if the grind is so coarse. I've never tried it to extremes.

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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

richwade80 said:


> Everything I've read suggest this is right... but I do doubt myself still.
> 
> As I understand it, over extraction is when you are passing water through the coffee beyond the point where there is any additional (beneficial) flavour to get, so it eventually becomes bitter, weak, watery etc.
> 
> ...


 No. Just no.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> No. Just no.


Fair enough, but you've got to elaborate then. I'm quite happy to be schooled.

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

richwade80 said:


> Everything I've read suggest this is right... but I do doubt myself still.
> 
> As I understand it, over extraction is when you are passing water through the coffee beyond the point where there is any additional (beneficial) flavour to get, so it eventually becomes bitter, weak, watery etc.
> 
> ...


 Over-extraction is when you have ground too fine for your brew ratio (but if you go finer still, the puck becomes less permeable and extraction drops again). Or, you accidentally push too much water through the bed/puck, for a grind size dialled in for a shorter ratio (volume is very relevant),

If you stick to the same ratio, an over-extracted brew will be more concentrated, not more watery. For recently roasted coffee, that's not super dark, it's quite hard to over-extract espresso, much easier with pourover, almost impossible with French press.

If your grind is too coarse for your chosen ratio, your shot will run fast & under-extract. You might increase extraction to a satisfactory level by running a longer shot, but this will be weaker than a shorter shot. You can under-extract at any brew ratio by being too coarse. It gets harder to over-extract, at any grind, as brew ratios become shorter.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Thanks @MWJB - i knew this was going to risk a dressing down - but i will be better for it in the long run...

This is what is confusing me - i have been using barista hustles guide on dialling in and extraction, which seem to contradict other information...

Their guide states; 'Under-extraction occurs when you haven't taken enough flavour out of the coffee grinds. There's still a lot left behind that could balance out the following undesirables.Cast your mind to a shot of espresso that was far too short; a ristretto of a typical Specialty espresso roast. It's sour, lacking sweetness, weirdly salty and has a disappointingly quick finish. These four things are the most obvious indicators of under-extraction.'

And...

'Over-extraction occurs when you take too much of the soluble flavours out of the coffee. This level of extraction results in unfavourable flavours.Cast your mind now to an espresso of a typical specialty espresso roast that brewed for 40-50 seconds. Don't pretend like you didn't taste it when this happened once. It's bitter, drying and hollow. These three things are the most obvious indicators of over-extraction.'

To me, this suggests under extraction is stopping a shot too soon and vice versa. I admit that this seems to be at odds with the definition of extraction yield on wikipedia for example.

Similarly, in this dialling in example (which i thought was helpful before), the terminology used is the same.

At 3.05s - He states that More yield = weaker espresso, with higher extraction, and Less Yield = stronger espresso with lower extraction

Shot 1 (3.45s) = Dose 20g / Yield 40g / Time 27s = quotes under extracted, and remedies to pull longer (no grind change)

Shot 2 (4.00s) = Dose 20g / Yield 50g / Time 30s = balanced (before tweaking further)

Is this just wrong, or have i just interpreted it in the wrong way? Any clarity would be much appreciated.


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

I totally get where the confusion is coming from. What the article states above it totally accurate. You just need to think that there is more than one way to achieve over and under extraction.

The scenarios set out above - drawing too much water through what would be an otherwise dialled in correct shot then yes you would be extracting all the desirables the coffee has to give and then extracting undesirable constituents. So that could be described as over extracted. However if you were to grind too fine and the coffee just drips through super slowly, water would've spent a great deal more time and possibly at higher pressures in contact with the coffee and therefore the liquid produced could be over extracted.

The volume of coffee is really irrelevant. You could have both a large volume or small volume of coffee that is over extracted.

So you could have a coffee that tastes immensely strong and concentrated that is over extracted, you could also have coffee that is watery and insipid be over extracted.

The same is also true for under extraction ie. coffee too coarse so the water comes through at a very high rate and does not draw the desirable flavours from the coffee. Again the volume of brewed coffee is irrelevant and this isn't the only scenario that could lead to under extraction.

Like all things coffee there are many variables and outcomes when it comes to extraction.


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Yeah, if you have channels for whatever reason, then some of the bed will underextract and the bits near the channels will over-extract. It's easy to do both at the same time.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I totally get where the confusion is coming from. What the article states above it totally accurate. You just need to think that there is more than one way to achieve over and under extraction.
> The scenarios set out above - drawing too much water through what would be an otherwise dialled in correct shot then yes you would be extracting all the desirables the coffee has to give and then extracting undesirable constituents. So that could be described as over extracted. However if you were to grind too fine and the coffee just drips through super slowly, water would've spent a great deal more time and possibly at higher pressures in contact with the coffee and therefore the liquid produced would be over extracted.
> The volume of coffee is really irrelevant. You could have both a large volume or small volume of coffee that is over extracted.
> So you could have a coffee that tastes immensely strong and concentrated that is over extracted, you could also have coffee that is watery and insipid be over extracted.
> ...


Thanks, this helps, at least in the knowledge that maybe it's not so straight forward. I think I'm just going to stick to taste for now... and perhaps avoid using terminology.

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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

richwade80 said:


> Thanks, this helps, at least in the knowledge that maybe it's not so straight forward. I think I'm just going to stick to taste for now... and perhaps avoid using terminology.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


 I was chef for a good number of years and worked in a lot of great kitchens. We had a saying - if it tastes right, it is right.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

In addition to explanations above there might be a way of thinking about things that are useful to you in practice.



richwade80 said:


> As I understand it, over extraction is when you are passing water through the coffee beyond the point where there is any additional (beneficial) flavour to get, so it eventually becomes bitter, weak, watery etc.


 Not necessarily, as explained. You can have over extracted concentrated shots.

So when you say:



> If it's coarse, there is less surface area so the soluble flavours are extracted quickly, and shot time has to be shorter.


 It's inaccurate. It it's too coarse the shot gushes. One of the reasons extraction decreases as the shot runs is because flow rate increases -- it's also because the most solubile things come out frist but ignoring that for now -- one of the things pressure profiling allows you to do is slow the flow rate down through the shot which allows a higher extraction, which may or may not be a good thing. So if you have a shot that gushes you aren't going to be getting a high extraction (for your dose). You might increase extraction by running the shot for much longer but you wouldn't have espresso you'd have a very bad filter.

It seems to me that you're thinking of things in terms of particle size and penetration, i.e. with larger particles the water won't penetrate to the middle and you'll over extract the outside of the grain and/or underextract the middle? Which leads you to think you need to use less water to avoid over extracting the outside of the grain? Even if that is true it's not really useful to think about. Better off thinking in terms of flow rate and slowing the shot down vs speeding it up.



> Volume is kind of irrelevant - If you keep to the same dose and grind, then you would increase or decrease yield to suit extraction for any given grind and dose.


 It's probably best if you avoid confusing terms extraction yield and yield. Volume is yield. Extraction is also reffered to as yield but best to just say high/low and increase/decrease extraction than to use the term yield again. So when you say volume is irrelevant and that you can increase or decrease yield to suit extraction for any given grind and dose it's pretty confusing and nonsensical. I think you're saying it doesn't matter what shot volume you get (yield) but that you can increase/decrease extraction by altering shot time? Which suggests you can just run a 200ml shot if your grind is too coarse and if it's too fine just dilute the drops you get out with water from the kettle? Or is it the other way around? Either way thinking about this isn't going to get you the results you want.



> In this OPs case, in theory at least, you'd have to decrease yield (shorter time) to get a better taste. In practice this might not work if the grind is so coarse. I've never tried it to extremes.


 So, as above, no. Aside from anything you're assuming bitterness means overextraction which isn't the case. Are you saying the op should make 5g shots from 18g doses? Saying you can "in theory" do this stuff is about as useful as me saying: "In theory, if the grind is so coarse, you could transfer the shot into a french press, knock the puck out into it, then add boiling water up to a 15-20:1 ratio, give it a good stir, and leave it there for about 30 minutes to an hour, or until it tastes good." It might work out but you're not getting the drink you want.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Rob1 said:


> In addition to explanations above there might be a way of thinking about things that are useful to you in practice.
> 
> Not necessarily, as explained. You can have over extracted concentrated shots.
> 
> ...


 Cheers Rob,

I've tried to summarise for my own sanity - if this is wrong i'm going home, save for the fact we're all at home now anyway.



Extraction is related to time that grinds are in contact with water


Under Extracted - where beneficial flavour is left to be extracted - could be a 'well ground' shot stopped too soon, or a coarse ground coffee running too quickly and so stopped short when a given volume is reached


Over Extracted - where undesirable flavour is extracted - could be a 'well ground' shot run too long, or a fine ground coffee running too slowly and so run too long when a given volume is reached


So re-visiting the example again;

Shot 1 = Dose 20g / Volume 40g / Time 27s = Quoted as 'strong and under extracted' which is right. So this must be a 'well ground' shot stopped too soon, so the logical fix is to run longer to get more contact time.

Shot 2 = Dose 20g / Volume 50g / Time 30s = Quoted as 'balanced'. But fixes further by grinding finer but keeping volume the same. Presumably this is to increase strength and extraction at the same time.

Shot 3 = Dose 20g / Volume 50g / Time 34s

The opposite of this process is principally why i said a coarser shot might be stopped shorter - i can see why that's wrong.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

richwade80 said:


> Extraction is related to time that grinds are in contact with water


 There's a vague correlation with shot/pourover brew time, but really time is a very poor guide to extraction. It's really a rough sketch sanity check...if your 1:2 shot takes 20s, it is very likely to be under, not because the shot took 20s, but because the grind was too coarse & the shot subsequently only took 20s. If you brew at a longer ratio, with a smaller dose, a 20s shot might be very tasty.

To illustrate this, if you made a tasty 1:2 shot, it might be around 9%TDS concentration. If you took those same grinds and added them to 5x the weight of water in a french press/cupping bowl, you will never see anything like that concentration - the sun would go out before this happened. (I say add to 5x the water, because the grounds will absorb 3x their own weight in water. leaving twice the free, extracted liquid).


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## DanAdkin (May 6, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> I was chef for a good number of years and worked in a lot of great kitchens. We had a saying - if it tastes right, it is right.


 Not a truer word was said, haven't heard that saying for a while! What kitchens did you work in?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

DanAdkin said:


> Not a truer word was said, haven't heard that saying for a while! What kitchens did you work in?


 I worked at a few local hotels and restaurants when I first started, then for germain schwab, robert thompson, andrew fairlie and jason atherton with a few stages in different places. Tough work being a chef and not good for family life.

I always thought I would end up buying a little country pub and just doing the best quality possible, locally sourced dishes just written up on a black board every day. I know it would get it out of hand though...... I would end up doing 100 hour weeks and chasing the guides. You know how it is i am sure.


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## PeterJG57 (Apr 22, 2020)

LukeH, did you get sorted with a better grinder? If so, what?


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