# Can't dial in grind's with Barista Express.



## pips (Aug 3, 2012)

Hey guys,

I need a bit of help as I'm reading and reading the forum but am feeling overwhelmed.

I've using the following and all my shots are on the higher end of the pressure gauge and not pouring "right".

- Single basket (stock)

- 10g

- 4 on the grinder

- Rave Signature Blend roasted on 28/11/18

As this is my first real machine I don't know what I'm doing wrong, maybe my tamping isn't 100% I don't know.

Help!!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ditch the single bakset

Weight your output .

How does it taste thought ...

What does not pouring right mean?


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## pips (Aug 3, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ditch the single bakset
> 
> Weight your output .
> 
> ...


1. 29g

2. Bitter/burnt

3. Not a single stream, starts of streaming then stops and splutters.

Curious to know why ditch the single basket ??


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pips said:


> Weight your output .
> 
> How does it taste thought ...
> 
> What does not pouring right mean?


1. 29g

2. Bitter/burnt

3. Not a single stream, starts of streaming then stops and splutters.

Curious to know why ditch the single basket ??

They can be harder to dial in and tamp.

How long is the shot taking...


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## Inspector (Feb 23, 2017)

Are u sure you are using the correct basket? Use the unpressurized one


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## pips (Aug 3, 2012)

Inspector said:


> Are u sure you are using the correct basket? Use the unpressurized one


Yea I am.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

From what I've read, the single basket operates at a higher pressure on the gauge than what's shown in the manual.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

pips said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I need a bit of help as I'm reading and reading the forum but am feeling overwhelmed.
> 
> ...


How does it taste


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## pips (Aug 3, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> How does it taste


Really bitter more sour than anything.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

pips said:


> Really bitter more sour than anything.


Try pulling more out, grind a bit coarser ignore the pressure gauge, forget what the pour looks like.

Tamping is really simple, don't grind into the PF - grind into a cup/dry milk jug. Check you have 10.0g of grinds then tip them into the PF. A downward tap on mat/counter, then a couple of side taps with heel of your hand to level the grinds. Hardest part now - make sure the tamper is square to the basket, press down evenly, once, until you can't see the steel edge band any more. Done.

What does 50g from a 10.0g dose taste like?

When this tastes OK, change nothing but the basket, add 18.0g and pull 63g out.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

10g can be too much for the Barista Express single. it sounds to me like you may be sending a lot of water through the over pressure valve and may have a bit of a tamping problem but maybe not. I'd suggest you do the following and actually but doubtful 10g may not be enough. Lowest grinder setting I ever went to on my BE was 6 but did use 4 on some duff beans that were not fresh roasted. I didn't need that low a setting on any other none fresh roasted beans I bought from several supermarkets.

I'd suggest you start again.

Set the grinder to 8 and waste some grinds - 3 or 4g to be certain that any from your current setting have gone.

Add 10 or 11g of grinds. Tamp - strain a little as that will help with consistency and try to keep the tamper level. Actually it's possible to correct that a touch with the tamper.

Now use the razor tool. Hopefully it will razor a small amount of grinds off. Tamp again. If it doesn't remove any grinds start again and add a bit more - say another gram.

Pull a shot noting how long it takes and the weight of the liquid that comes out. It will probably give too much out and the time may be short of 30 sec when the single button is used.

If too little comes out adjust the setting by one coarser. If too much one finer. Repeat the above which ever. Time should be circa 30 sec but as the BE produces volume based shots this may vary and in real terms anything between 25 to 35 sec may be ok. Each time you adjust the grinder waste a couple of grams of beans to get rid of the previous settings grinds.

When taste is what you want check what weight the razor tool leaves and use that as a basis. This means that you may need to use it manually. Maybe weighing the shot as it comes out with scales and noting the time. The double button should always give more than the single if the default on that gives to little, Once programmed I found it to be pretty good at maintaining shots but only if preparation is fairly consistent.

You can then if you want adjust that weight a bit each way to help with tuning. Remove grinds and the output will go up. Add and they will go down. Too little and the puck is likely to be rather wet after a shot. Too much will interfere with the grinder setting - it's like grinding finer. Some more can be added and perhaps the best guide as to how much more is the impression of the screw that holds the shower screen in place. If your lucky as it depends a bit on the bean a sensible max fill height is when you can see very slight signs of the hole in the screw - if it's dead clear there is too much in really but no harm in brewing with that much in but you'll need to get there slowly because it may be interfering with grinds expansion too much = weaker drink. It will get harder and harder to knock the puck out as well. Wet low pucks tend to leave some behind when they are knocked out

The above really relates to any basket you use but the single is a little different. You will very probably find that you need to get the pressure gauge going right up to the end of the espresso range - the solid blue sector. It is possible to brew with the gauge going into the hatched area past that but only with caution. Too far and you may get what you are currently getting and also wonder why the drip tray is filling up so quickly. If your using the double and brew like this the drink may be too strong. In that case aim for a lower reading. The info in the machines manual is more appropriate for that or higher or even lower for that matter.

The other aspect is ration of grams of grinds in to grams of liquid out. Don't assume that this must be a factor 2. On my BE I often found that the best ratio was higher than that - even over 3 at times. The only way of settling that is via taste. Personally I always tune to get the taste the bean should have according to the tasting notes for it but there is no harm at all in changing things once that has been found to get what suits the drinker.

John

-


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## pips (Aug 3, 2012)

ajohn said:


> 10g can be too much for the Barista Express single. it sounds to me like you may be sending a lot of water through the over pressure valve and may have a bit of a tamping problem but maybe not. I'd suggest you do the following and actually but doubtful 10g may not be enough. Lowest grinder setting I ever went to on my BE was 6 but did use 4 on some duff beans that were not fresh roasted. I didn't need that low a setting on any other none fresh roasted beans I bought from several supermarkets.
> 
> I'd suggest you start again.
> 
> ...


I'm amazed at the detailed depth and knowledge of your reply, I'm sure it'll help me and someone else in the distant future.

I'll sure to follow your guidelines tomorrow morning thanks !!


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

pips said:


> I'm amazed at the detailed depth and knowledge of your reply, I'm sure it'll help me and someone else in the distant future.
> 
> I'll sure to follow your guidelines tomorrow morning thanks !!


Hope it helps. It should give you a solid starting point. Past that you should try changing things now and again. For instance rather than the single a low dose in the double, maybe it's best to work with a little less grinds in than the razor tool leaves - and etc. The only way to find out is to try it.

John

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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

Hi guys looking for a bit of help if I can. I'm having trouble with my BE pressure using Union Revelation fresh beans 1/3/21- 1kg bought 500g left 😆

Im using the double single wall basket weighing out 18g although tried 17.5g,19g and 20g but pressure is terrible.

Side grind setting was on 8 and every time I've had to come down 1 and retry but still pressure is poor.

Im waiting on a Distributor and Tamper tool coming.

18g in - 17.5g out.

I tried putting the empty Double Wall filter in and flushed a shot. Pressure 12 O Clock and 66g of water out after I emptied the water from the PF.

Im now down at grind 1 and I'm only getting to about 9 O Clock.

Sorry I know you guys like videos but that would be a whole new forum for me lol.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

What beans are you using - a link to them may help? Are they the ones listed on Amazon? Hand roasted etc.


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

https://unionroasted.com/products/revelation-signature-espresso?variant=19537333190774&currency=GBP&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=Cj0KCQiAyoeCBhCTARIsAOfpKxjVk6t_5IFitfn3iCCKFkAVYnqy2UKBkiBJPS1KYHQVibsj_ntc8hMaArK0EALw_wcB

Hi thanks for the reply hope the link helps sorry might not have been clear in previous post but got them freshly roasted from Union Coffee on the 1st of March. Total novice when it comes to anything related to the bean to cup machines, coffee beans etc so any advice would be very welcome. Not even sure if Union Coffee is good but looked online for places that roast the beans to order. I've also been watching a lot of videos with Hoon being one of the ones I watched the most. 
Recently watched one were he tells you if you have exhausted all avenues when it comes to dialing in and getting nowhere near the pressure you should be getting then it's ok to change the internal settings of the burr grinder which has a default at 6. 
Apart from not having the Distribution and Tamper tool I think I've did everything to get that dial up to around the 12 but I'm not even close.

Im sitting at 1 and although it wasn't as bad tasting as others it clearly wasn't right and I wouldn't be happy paying nearly £600 for something that I'm making do with. So last night before I went up to my bed I decided to change the internal burr setting from 6 down to 2. I also moved the side grind from 1 back up to 9 so in the morning I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a good result that will see me having more room to make the adjustments I need to make a decent espresso. I love Latte if you have any tips on a nice coffee bean that would be great. I did get Beans from Amazon the first time I ordered but the freshness of the roast wasn't great Infact it was nearly 2 months old so learned a lesson there. Even if you knew of a site that did freshly roasted beans to order. I've looked at Rave as a possibility.


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

So

Dont know what happened there sorry


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Full Of Beans said:


> So


 And


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

Well woke up early and had to go down and try the new settings. 19g double single wall basket, grind 9 was way to fast so went down to 6 and was much better. Better speed and also hit 12 o clock on the dial. Tasted the shot and was the best one yet by a distance. Only I'm unsure about when I start the timer. Is it when I hit the button. Or is it when the first drop hits the cup because if it's the latter I'm only getting 16 seconds.


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## stingray (Aug 4, 2020)

considering investing in a decent grinder. I could never get a consistent with the built-in Sage one.


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

Yes think that will be my next thing to look at although it won't be for a while. When you add up what you actually have spent on the BE and all the accessories my wife who drinks tea btw would not be best pleased if I started looking at grinders lol. Think I'll give it a while.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

stingray said:


> considering investing in a decent grinder. I could never get a consistent with the built-in Sage one.


 Maybe that's down to you as many manage to.


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## Callum_Pg (Oct 28, 2020)

Mrboots2u said:


> How does it taste


Make it coarser and try again


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

I'll try it coarser to see if it helps. So when does the timing start is it from the first drop or when I hit the 2 cup button?


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## lake_m (Feb 4, 2017)

Start the timer when you push the button.

The Sage grinder can't handle lighter roasts but should be fine with Revelation.

Focus on puck prep to avoid channelling (The Sage grinder is a channel demon!!). The Sage grinder will get to a point where grinding finer makes things worse. Pressure builds and then it bursts through as a channel.

Consider WDT (stirring in the portafilter) with a tooth pick before tamping to ensure a fully distributed puck.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

You need to be cautious about resetting the outer burr. Too much and then grind fine enough for the burrs to rub and your likely to need new burrs.

I had an SGP with incorrectly set burrs. On a setting of 1 the burrs rubbed so much it near stalled the motor. As they rubbed they heated up and the friction increased and slowed it down even more. I managed to stop it quickly enough. Then found that the outer burr was set at the wrong number.

I have watched an engineer calibrate one of their grinders and all are exactly the same in this respect but they need dismantling to do it the way they do it. He was fitting a new grinder.

What I did is brushed the burrs clean. Started it up at a coarse setting and then went finer one step at a time. At the correct number the grinder slowed down slightly. Go 2 steps coarser and then one finer and they ran completely clear. There would never ever be a need to grind at a setting of one so that was ok. Going too coarse and then finer takes out back play in the mechanism. Worth doing when ever the grinder is set coarser. It's not the only grinder with that feature, even Mazzer have a bit of it.

I'd say the best option on the BE would be to adjust the outer burr so that the motor doesn't slow down and take great care on the one where it does and switch of quickly. Or remember not to use that setting. One step on the outer burr setting at a time.

The engineer way is to disengage the adjustment mechanism and then wind the rather large worm wheel that carries the burrs in until they touch firmishly. Then wind back a touch, set the adjuster to zero and connect it up. May need a couple of goes to only back them up a touch.


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

Thanks for that advice so if I've got this right I may have went to far in the jump from 6 to 2 possibly better going to 5 and trying again from there. Will definitely be moving the burr setting up a bit don't want to burn the motor out. Great advice and much appreciated


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

Thanks I'll give the stirring in with toothpick a go also. Wife thinks I'm crazy she doesn't see past the kettle and a jar of coffee lol


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Channelling and the Sage grinders. Over filling the basket wont help, too low a ratio wont either but it's generally down to prep and unequal pressure levels in the puck after it's tamped. Eg say the grinds heap is lop sided and you simply plonk a tamper on it. The high side will be compressed more than the low. You will be trying to keep the tamper level and should be as slope in a tamped puck will cause unequal flow across it as well. With the Sage tamper it's possible to run a finger around it and the basket and check it's level. If not best correct it with a bit more tamping force but sadly that can have effects as well.

Curiously a decent *even* heaped pile of grinds doesn't cause much of a problem - presumably because pressing the central heap down also press grinds out firmly to the sides of the basket.

I'd be inclined to say that the entire range of small filter basket machines are best suited to medium roasts and darker. Light roasts are trickier to tune but it can be done and has been. Likely to result in more speed variation when grinding them. Fines - after they have had a sensible quantity of beans through them mellow drinks can be produced if it's that type of bean. Grinder speed going up and down can be due to uneven roasting - more likely on light roasts.

The biggest problem with these machines really is it will be x.000000 grams of grinds in and 2x.0000000 out over 30.0000000 secs from the press of the button. When people weigh out they are adjusting time to maintain a ratio as closely as possible. Then there are people who use 40sec as the default. That big a change will usually change taste really noticeably as yield is likely to be higher. The 2x.00000, if only it was really that simple. The aim is to produce a taste that the drinker likes and suites the bean. Takes some work to find out but it's unavoidable.

Beans that are packed in preservative gasses to extend shelf life can be a problem. To be honest I don't think many if any are intended to use in an espresso machine. Lavazza do a specific range that is in 1kg packs. I've tried a number of others that I have used in a french press and the taste is usually completely different. Odd thing is with a Sage grinder I have managed to tune all of them even off the supermarkets shelves. Many people never manage so maybe I was lucky. Taste though generally crap. Some of the higher strength / caffeine ones might be viewed as improved but only maybe.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Might be worth mentioning over sized tampers that reach right to the edge. A problem on the small basket machines. Offset it against the side of the basket and polish the puck with it like that all the way round. Just firmly not at what ever tamping pressure you use. TBH though I wouldn't put edge channelling down to Sage's own tamper. That problem for me went at some point when I had "got it right".  I suspect ~1kg of beans probably more also ran the grinder in on my BE.

The biggest grief with the Sage BE manual is where they show the needle on the guage going too. Invariably it will need to go higher but it's best to only allow it to go a little bit paste the solid grey sector. No gauge and the drip tray filling up rather quickly - try and reduce it but some people especially milk based like it this way. It's just short of where the machine will choke if the grinder is set finer. Then comes all of those under and over extracted comments. Forget them and concentrate on taste.


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

Hi ajohn I moved the burr from 2 back up to 5 to try and see if I'm doing something wrong. I'm using 19g of beans with 19g out not all the time but if I'm short I grind a few beans more to bring it up to 19g. I've just started internal burr 5 and side grind I put at 12. Thought I'd go high and work my way down. Flow was far to fast so I came down 1 by 1 all the time and I'm now at 6 with same results. Had to walk away from it, but what I have noticed is when I'm tamping then using the leveling tool I seem to be taking quite a bit off. Also after reading your last post it's possible I'm pressing down to much possibly because I know I'm taking off too much with the level.

Sorry I'm saying internal burr when I notice you call that the outer burr. Great place to learn here.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Lots of good advice from ajohn, I don't want to give you a laundry list of things to do, but I would suggest reading the sticky in the Sage forum if you haven't, lots of tips in there.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

The standard setting for the outer burr is 6. 5 is finer according to the manual. Page 22

I'd suggest you calibrate it as I mention. Brush the burrs clean and refit the burr one setting finer. Have the grinder setting some where you know it's not rubbing. Slowly adjust the grinder finer 1 step at a time to the finest setting while the grinder is running. If the motor slows slightly the burrs are near rubbing. Run the grinder manually by keeping the portafilter pushed in so that when you pull out it stops immediately. Don't run it for long when this happens. If nothing happens set back to the coarse setting and adjust the outer burr one setting finer and repeat.

The motor runs a lot faster when it isn't grinding beans.

When it slows you have 2 choices, never use the finest setting or set the outer burr one setting coarser. The adjustments on the outer burr are very fine.

How ever you do it, say guessing an adjustment as you did you must check what happens as the grinder is set at it's finest otherwise if you have a difficult bean you might find yourself grinding with the burrs rubbing by mistake. Some time ago a person with an Oracle needed to buy new burrs. This probably what they did. I didn't need to do anythig on my BE. Grinder setting ranged from 4 to 8. 4 for a bean that tends to need fine grinding. I did on the SGP and the slight rub didn't cause any problems.

So an alternative is to set the burr as you had and check down to the finest setting. If they rub back the burr setting off and repeat. What people often don't realise about the burr adjustment is that all it does is alter the grind numbers for the same level of grind. However if it hasn't been calibrated properly when it was built it might not grind fine enough.

The other reason for the outer burr adjustment is long term wear but frankly I would say that's the time to fit new ones. That is likely to take several years of really heavy home use.

When a grinder wont grind fine enough with decent beans the best answer is to probably phone Sage but I suspect engineers aren't too keen on visiting with covid around.

Oh - by the way sometimes people who buy an Oracle comment on good coffee and guess what - same grinder. Some have used other stuff.


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## stingray (Aug 4, 2020)

ajohn said:


> Maybe that's down to you as many manage to.


 the first and most obvious upgrade to consider


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## Callum_Pg (Oct 28, 2020)

Full Of Beans said:


> I'll try it coarser to see if it helps. So when does the timing start is it from the first drop or when I hit the 2 cup button?


Clock starts counting when you press the button, that is the pre-infusion stage.


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## Lawn (Dec 15, 2020)

As a fellow BE owner I know how frustrating this machine can be! Just to confirm are you weighing your beans after you grind them? This helped me a lot in the early days but the biggest flaw is the grinder. I find it very inconsistent and I've been trying to get hold of a niche grinder for months now


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Using any grinder via the timer is not much fun in terms of consistent doses and once it's achieved the output will still drift. I managed to do it on the BE by always having the same bean in it. On a timed grinder some do it setting a bulk and a top up grind via the 1shot 2shot buttons but I don't think that can be done on the BE.

SGP I weighed in. Same can be done on the BE.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/dxfa33



http://imgur.com/ZRRVBzg


Now *do make sure* you don't disturb the position of the large worm wheel or gears. Actually using the clip as shown in the image should make 1/2 steps possible.

This is also the way the burrs are calibrated but turn finer until the burrs touch the wind back a touch and refit the adjuster aligned at the finest setting, That means winding back to the nearest click positions. You'll never need to grind that fine so if in doubt don't use it.


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## Callum_Pg (Oct 28, 2020)

Lawn said:


> As a fellow BE owner I know how frustrating this machine can be! Just to confirm are you weighing your beans after you grind them? This helped me a lot in the early days but the biggest flaw is the grinder. I find it very inconsistent and I've been trying to get hold of a niche grinder for months now


Yes, certainly. We will know what is the dose in and what we will expect on the dose out, then calculate the brew ratio.


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## Full Of Beans (Mar 2, 2021)

ajohn once again thanks for taking the time to help. I now totally understand what you were saying before after seeing the pics from the link. I must admit I was totally pissed off with the machine but at the same time I know I could be me but I had to blame something lol. I just feel that there's something I'm not doing right. I bought the machine from Amazon and contacted them to try and get a Sage engineer to maybe help me but the folk from Amazon just sent me a link to send it back totally useless. I really don't want to send it back because what if I'm sending a machine back that there is nothing wrong with it only for another machine to be the exact same. I'm totally new to this and yeh it's harder than I thought but I'm sure once I get this it will be a lot easier. I don't want to just settle and make do with a double wall basket that's the easy option but not the best. 
I do believe when I get my distribution and tamper tool it will help me greatly. Unfortunately I bought this from Amazon before realising it's coming from China so maybe another week to go. 
I mean that link with the step by step instructions is class ajohn thanks. I have a couple of things I'm going to try before I attempt to do this. 
I weigh my beans 19g and I make sure I get 19g out if I'm short I'll grind some more if I'm over I'll take off. Tomorrow I will check my dose espresso. I know my puck is always wet with a bit of water visible on top. When I'm using the tamper that came with the machine I always check that I'm doing it level the pressure I use could be too much because every time I use the tool that levels the coffee I end up taking off quite a bit so I try to press it down to combat this. I know that all of this could be contributing to me not reaching the correct pressure or even the correct time for a shot. So this is what I'm going to look at this week. I have until March 27th to return the machine to Amazon but as I said there is a strong possibility that the machine is good and it's me that's bad lol.


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## Lawn (Dec 15, 2020)

ajohn said:


> __
> https://www.reddit.com/r/espresso/comments/dxfa33
> 
> 
> ...


 Great guide thanks, never knew about this mod I'm going to do it today.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

One of the main thing about Sage's thermo.............. machines is using a sensible dose of grinds in the first place. That can be checked with the razor tool. Bean densities vary so the weight used for the same fill height can too. It's pointless using what some one else uses or mentions.

Maximum amount in. Add 1/2g at a time to that until the puck sticks to the shower screen then add 1/2g more, maybe again. It should stop doing that. Works on the BE so should work on the others. Not the DB though. If some one had a Sage engineer make them a drink they would use the grinder manually and stop at some point. They have done it many times so can. They may use more coffee than people on here would. That high limit is easy to check. Tamp, fit the portafilter, remove and make sure the shower screen hasn't marked it.

Some aspects of taste and coffee extraction just relate to how slowly the water passes through them. Overloading a basket is sacrilegious. The grinds expand when the puck gets wet so if there isn't sufficient room for that a coarser grind is needed for some specific ratio. The 1/2g add I mentioned makes very very little difference to this. Extraction also relates to time so if that is extended what do you think happens? Reducing it tends to have the opposite effect.

Minimum in. The used puck will start getting wet. Film of water is ok but if the whole thing goes a bit muddy it's unlikely to work out.

Don't forget the single. I know it can make a decent strong 10oz americano with strong beans. Using it is no different to the double. It is on the DB. It seems that one has to be overloaded.

Lastly dismiss web style 30 sec a 2x ratio and anything else is either under or over extracted. The manuals are as bad but if the numbers are worked through the ratio is more like 3x. Interesting as it does suite some beans and some peoples tastes. The only option is to try a range and taste them. Some would suggest tasting shots directly. If too strong water them down. If you drink americano make one, then the question is how big a one. The whole idea is to produce a drink that some one enjoys drinking. I add reflecting the tasting notes the bean is said to have in a manner that suites me. Personally I think relating to tasting notes on most beans needs some imagination. I also think peoples pallets get educated over time.  One I detect when trying beans is water. I didn't when I started. It's an after taste.

The main problem is something has to be fixed because there are too many variables. Dose makes sense as does trying different ratios but say those needed 25 sec or 35 sec to produce try them providing they needed a grinder setting change. Ratio has a tendency to rule all. Once there the other things can be varied. It helps if people can mostly stick to one type of bean.

The grinder mod - I'd try just the clip first and try 1/2 steps. Without the clip they may jump to the nearest setting. I managed without either but rather than follow the gospel I worked through the problems. It's useful experience. When I went to a grinder upgrade I went for a Mazzer Mini. I mean stepless adjustment has to be great doesn't it. Then comes the miniscule adjustments needed to set a precise ratio. Also the need for most to weigh out anyway = varying time.


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