# Why is pre ground such a problem !?



## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

why is it that when i ask for 'ground for espresso', or buy a packet of coffee thats supposedly ground for espresso, its not fine enough and i cant get past 18-20s

do the companies never test what they are selling on an actual machine, i understand that as it goes 'off' it will come out faster, but the last HasBean i got was roasted, ground, and bagged not even 24hours earlier and i think 20s was the best i could get, no matter how much i put in, or how hard i tamped

i know everyone says a grinder is a must have, but surely it shouldnt be that way

i think the best ive had so far was Taylors, which did extract around 25s IIRC, might have been using the pressurised basket though, i cant remember


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## wastedhours (Jan 2, 2012)

I'm always fascinated by what machines roasters use to test their coffees. You see all of the fancy-schmancy pics of Speedsters, Synessos and Stradas, the occasional GS3 or even a Rocket, but I've not seen many that have low to mid range machines in the pictures of their labs - I know that doesn't explain why they're not grinding fine enough (as surely the issue would be more obvious on high end equipment[?]), but it makes me wonder how in touch many are with their customers needs.


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

Speaking from my own perspective, I have 2 settings on the shop grinder for espresso and I use them to assess the flavour of a roast, as an espresso. Rather than use my home grinder, which has stepless micro-adjustment, I judge what grind to use for bagging by the shop grinder. Ok, I use a Rocket for the shots but that doesn't detract from the idea that a good shot is down to Man, Machine and Method.

Agreed, you don't have the option of dialling in a new coffee. Since starting out with coffee I have always been advised to invest in the best grinder I could afford before purchasing an espresso machine. It makes sense considering the alternative.

Donate me a lower-end machine and I'll try my best


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## Danielowenuk (Aug 12, 2011)

If you sell a grind that is slightly too coarse, then your customer gets under extracted coffee. A lot of customers wouldn't know the difference.

If you sell slightly too fine, then you over extract, and the customer probably wouldn't notice. *BUT* if it's too fine and it chokes the machine you end up with a return.

I would imagine most pre-ground coffee is sold so that it works in ALL machines, hence majority of the time it's going to be too coarse.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

What weight do you put in the basket? Coarseness of grind is only part of what contributes to pour speed.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

I threw 18g of pre-ground Jabberwocky into my naked portafilter last night and got a coffee shower - all 8 seconds of it. At least the wife laughed.....

Al


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

brun said:


> why is it that when i ask for 'ground for espresso', or buy a packet of coffee thats supposedly ground for espresso, its not fine enough and i cant get past 18-20s
> 
> do the companies never test what they are selling on an actual machine, i understand that as it goes 'off' it will come out faster, but the last HasBean i got was roasted, ground, and bagged not even 24hours earlier and i think 20s was the best i could get, no matter how much i put in, or how hard i tamped
> 
> ...


Im sure if you emailed Steve regarding the grind on your next order he might get it finer for you?

If the grind is too course and you updose to compensate you might under-extract and end up with a sour result


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## maarten_booij (Jan 28, 2011)

You're totally right garydyke1. Before I had my grinder, I used to buy pre-ground from has bean. First time was way to course for me as well, so I send them an email asking them if they could grind a couple of steps finer. This was no problem, so the next batch I got from them was good. Very good customer service


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Steve has said he will grind finer for me next time, so the customer service is definitely top notch, im just wondering why its so far out to start with, ill have to get some numbers off them so if it does work i know what to ask for next time

ive tried 14-18g and everything in between, ive tamped so hard im off the floor and it still wont go past 20s

would 1 or 2 settings on a grinder, a commerical one at that, be such a difference in extraction time, are machines so wildly different ?

im a newb to this so i may be asking a question with an obvious answer but i just didnt think it possible to be so off, i didnt think machines were *that* different, in my very very limited experience, i doubt this ground could choke *any* machine


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Well on my mid-range Mazzer 2-3mm change is the difference between a 20 second 'sink shot' and a 27 second 'god shot'


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## Monkey_Devil (Jul 11, 2011)

To be honest, i don't think its reasonable to expect a roaster to be able to grind it to a suitable coarseness. So many machines work differently, require different grinds, some are more forgiving than others etc.

Decent grinder is essential, i really don't think there is any way round it. It doesn't take much adjustment on the vario to make or break a shot for me.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

how many settings is 2-3mm ?....sorry im not familiar with grinders

is that 2-3 clicks ?....if so i guess the margin is quite small and its easy to go too coarse


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

brun said:


> how many settings is 2-3mm ?....sorry im not familiar with grinders
> 
> is that 2-3 clicks ?....if so i guess the margin is quite small and its easy to go too coarse


Its stepless, no clicks, can be adjusted infinitely.


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## maarten_booij (Jan 28, 2011)

brun said:


> would 1 or 2 settings on a grinder, a commerical one at that, be such a difference in extraction time, are machines so wildly different ?


Back then I asked steve for 2 steps finer, and that worked for me


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## CoffeeMagic (Aug 7, 2011)

Have a quick squint of Grinder-wanted - it says it all.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

So do machines really vary that much, it seems to me that the majority rather than the minority seem to have problems with the grind being too coarse, in fact has anyone EVER used a pre ground that worked properly


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

It is possible. At Taylors we have these huge burr plates (10kg per minute) that can occasionally overheat and cause a slightly finer grind than the target.

These extract longer and generally taste better. It is hit or miss.

One idea would be to go finer than you need and if you find it choking your machine just dose less?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

brun, I suspect nobody is prepared to stick their neck all the way out and give you it plain and simple because plain and simple answers are very rare in coffee - there are always opposing views. The impact is that as someone new to coffee you are left without a clear answer.

I'd like to risk being arrogant and stick my neck out to try to give you a clear answer. It will be agreeable to some and disagreeable to others.

*The minute someone choose to use pre-ground coffee they forfeit the right to query the quality of the coffee it produces, or any of the processes it has undergone before landing at their door.*

*
*

Pre-grinding results in the following:

- Stale coffee. I don't care what anyone says, if you want to get the coffee at its best, you only have a few *minutes *to use it after it has been ground. If you bite into an apple it goes brown in minutes. Think of grinding coffee the same way. 24 hours is a lifetime for ground coffee. Forget vacuum packaging or nitrogen flushing.

- Wrong grind size. One of the reasons people have grinders is that you MUST change the grind size frequently throughout each day, because coffee is hygroscopic. Even if the pre-grind is correct at one point, it will be wrong later... maybe only a matter of minutes later if a cloud comes over your house and humidity levels change.

I'm not saying don't use pre-ground. Not everyone has a grinder, and not everyone needs one. Some people find pre-ground coffee acceptable and that is fine. What I'm saying is, anyone using pre-ground shound not expect to get the same results as those who use fresh-ground.

I hope that is helpful.

BTW - please see this blog post by Steve Leighton of Has Bean

http://www.hasblog.co.uk/pre-ground-the-devils-work-or-a-stairway-to-heaven


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

Thanks a lot, I'm just trying to make sense of all these variables and it seemed to me that pre ground is ALWAYS too coarse, as I've said I'm new so I'm limited with experience and knowledge at the moment, but if you don't ask questions you would never know, cheers


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## oldman (Dec 1, 2011)

In the past I've had a few bags of preground that choked my gaggia classic with vst basket, even with very light tamping


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


> brun, I suspect nobody is prepared to stick their neck all the way out and give you it plain and simple because plain and simple answers are very rare in coffee - there are always opposing views. The impact is that as someone new to coffee you are left without a clear answer.
> 
> I'd like to risk being arrogant and stick my neck out to try to give you a clear answer. It will be agreeable to some and disagreeable to others.
> 
> ...


You have said what we were all thinking but were too scared to offend.

So in summary : '' Cowboy the F*** Up and get a grinder'' ; )


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

trust me, im saving for a grinder, i just didnt know why the pre ground stuff never worked properly, now i know how fast it goes off i understand a bit better, but i still think more suppliers should grind finer, even if its just by one setting


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## wastedhours (Jan 2, 2012)

In the US, ground coffee is 63% of the market, with whole beans under 8% (and dropping by the looks of it) (source) - it might not be great, but it's a massively important area of the market for roasters, and whilst the majority is probably filter grind, roasters do have to make sure they cater for it.

I got on board home grinding early in my coffee making life, but the vast majority wont think that way, and if speciality is going to make the jump to the mainstream, it's going to have to meet the unknowing consumer half-way. Saying to a consumer "no you're an idiot, go and buy an expensive grinder" isn't going to wash at any scale. There's only so many people with grinders for speciality roasters to sell to (just look at the selection of beans in a supermarket next to pre-ground), and whilst mainstream adoption and money isn't the be-all and end-all, it helps keep the Probats in working order.

So if companies are going to offer it, why aren't they offering more tailored espresso grinds? Heck, usually the only ones I find in supermarkets are Lavazza's red and blue vacuum sealed packs.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Yeah, I can see that it's a bit of a dilemma for some roasters, especially when they have to make a living. I can see that there is a big market for pre-ground, and if it was just about fulfilling a demand and making money then by all means I'd jump on that wagon like the Lavazzas of this world. But that's one of the differences between speciality coffee and commercial coffee, in my view. There is no such thing as pre-ground speciality coffee. There's no point in going to all that time, effort and cost to produce and ship a bean that has a minimal count of acricultural and transportational defects, with carefully nurtured and delicate characteristics, only to feck it up once it reaches the customer? Leave that to commercial grade coffee sellers. Of course, that means that speciality coffee will never be the most common coffee you'll find, and lower grade coffees will always dominate in terms of volume of sales... the same way there are more lower and middle grade food offerings than there are speciality food offerings. But the demand for speciality food has been rising for years now, and the same is happening to coffee. And as that happens, as more customers get on board, then they will understand coffee more, and they will accept that grinding at home makes a better cup. I've seen it happen. I've seen friends of mine who love coffee and thing pre-ground is just fine, suddently open their eyes wide when they get a fresh ground one and ask "where can I get one of those hand grinder things???"



> Saying to a consumer "no you're an idiot, go and buy an expensive grinder" isn't going to wash at any scale.


Agreed, but saying to a customer "We don't pre-grind because these coffees would be ruined if we did. Let me show you the difference a low cost hand grinder makes..." does wash. Just ask any good coffee shop. We'll be selling hand grinders in my shop and I won't pre-grind for anyone... not to be snobby or condescending, but instead to make sure my customers get a great cup of coffee when they make it at home. I'll also show them how to brew it. So there's no "go away, fool!". There's "oh you like good coffee, cool!" Every home inhabited by a coffee drinker should have a hand grinder, just like every home inhabited by someone who likes good tea should have a teapot. A lot more homes in the US have coffee grinders in their kitchen than UK homes. US coffee drinkers are much more into grinding than we are, but that is changing.

But as for roasters getting espresso grind more specific... we already know that micro-adjustments are needed to dial in espresso, and more adjustmens are needed throughout each day. I don't see how anyone could offer an espresso grind that would work for everyone, every day. That's why we see so many people on here struggling with it, and then the occasional person saying "Bingo, today it was perfect".

Sorry, bit of a ramble cos I'm not at home...!


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## MonkeyHarris (Dec 3, 2010)

brun said:


> So do machines really vary that much, it seems to me that the majority rather than the minority seem to have problems with the grind being too coarse, in fact has anyone EVER used a pre ground that worked properly


Before I had a grinder I used Illy pre ground and although it wasn't up to much as an espresso I found if I loaded the basket upto the brim and tamped fairly hard I would nearly always acheive a 25-35 second pour. It tasted ok in latte though. My suggestion would be tamp harder and use more coffee







or failing that invest in a grinder (you know you're going to buy one soon anyway)


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## wastedhours (Jan 2, 2012)

Don't get me wrong, I understand all of your points, but it has always been my opinion that people are stupid and lazy. I don't mean that in perhaps the way it sounds, but compared to our own areas of expertise, people who aren't informed and aren't as passionate wont take the time or expense to learn, become frustrated easily and give up even faster (read the Amazon reviews of espresso machines and count how many have returned them and bought pod-based alternatives). Too many commercial grade blends aren't exciting enough - they taste of coffee, how most would imagine generic coffee to taste, but that doesn't move consumers (who might never step into a coffee shop other than a Costa or Starbucks) along in the coffee world.

Wouldn't a stale good blend still beat a stale, robusta packed, normal one?

I love my £40 burr grinder, it's fantastic, and I very rarely put any pre-ground in the machine (it's usually decaf if I do), but I think capturing consumers at the supermarket rather than potentially putting them off with another layer of difficulty is extremely important for the market. Letting them build up confidence and interest organically rather than give them an ultimatum between "another step" and "shit coffee".

Grind level is something that intrigues me though. There are very few packs on shop shelves that actually claim to be espresso grinds, in fact many say "for all coffee machine types, except espresso" - but the rate of espresso machine sales must surely make them sit up and take note? I know that (especially if it's stepless) you can dial in until the cows come home, but it does interest me what machines companies use for determining what grind level to sell at for such a large potential market, not just in monetary terms, but potential customers of whole bean stuff down the line.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

At least pre-ground coffee is a step up from instant. I can't remember the figure but the % instant sales to R&G coffee was high in 2011.

Instant coffee still makes up a huge part of the market, simply because these people want no 'faff' and no mess.

They want to add hot water to it and drink it.

If we can convert these people onto ground coffee then maybe we can convert ground drinkers into home grinders.

If someone could make a very cheap and compact grinder/brewer that you basically pour beans in and 3-4 minutes later you get a great cup of coffee, it might be a start, minimalising 'faff'.

Taylors espresso ground is a joke to me and I have asked the question why??? but it still sells so surely if it sells then we will continue to produce it?


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I actually think taylors might be the best I've tried so far, I've just opened hasbean jailbreak, roasted and ground 10 days ago, 15g firmly tamped, 16s for a double, I'm tempted stick to taylors til I can afford a grinder. I really appreciate the sensible discussion from this thread, although its clear I need a grinder its nice to see people can understand the points I've tried to raise and get where I'm coming from.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

> At least pre-ground coffee is a step up from instant. I can't remember the figure but the % instant sales to R&G coffee was high in 2011.
> 
> ...
> 
> If we can convert these people onto ground coffee then maybe we can convert ground drinkers into home grinders.


I do agree with this approach. Sometimes I must admit to being a bit overzealous about coffee quality, and have to remind myself to celebrate every milestones on the way to getting more people on the path of speciality coffee.



> Taylors espresso ground is a joke to me and I have asked the question why??? but it still sells so surely if it sells then we will continue to produce it?


I hope your employer never reads this forum, mate!! Your honesty is commendable but I'd hate to see your comments used against you.


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

brun - the difference between Gaggias pressurised portafilter and the Naked Portafilter which is unpressurised is vast. Although I'm still not getting a great tasting shot, I can honestly say the crema and consistency of the shots are much, much better. Like you I used Taylors and also Illy and Lavazza pre-ground with the pressurised portafilter and found I had to go down to 15 or 15 1/2g dose, tamped very hard to get results of 2fl oz in 20 seconds or thereabouts.

I'm just finishing the introductory pack from Hasbean - five packs of pre-ground and a pressurised pf - waste of time and money and this is where my beef is; pre-ground just isn't good enough for espresso machines and Gaggia (amongst others) have camoflaged this by including a pressurised portafilter with the Classic. Also, there is a market for pre-ground because of machines like the Gaggia Classic - catch 22. I've yet to dial in the MC2 successfully but when I do.....



wastedhours said:


> <snip>I know that (especially if it's stepless) you can dial in until the cows come home,<snip></snip></snip>


I'm not sure I understand the context *wastedhours* (although I'm beginning to appreciate your username). Do you mean it's easy to dial in with all beans or you can spend ages and not get near the mark?

Al


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## wastedhours (Jan 2, 2012)

onemac said:


> I'm not sure I understand the context *wastedhours* (although I'm beginning to appreciate your username). Do you mean it's easy to dial in with all beans or you can spend ages and not get near the mark?


Not sure whether I'm being insulted or not, but what I meant was that you could be adjusting it nanometre by nanometre - you can be constantly adjusting and it will never be perfect. Not saying that you shouldn't strive for perfection, but there's always going to be room for improvement even at home.


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

My grinder fund got 50 quid better off today, soon I will join you in the quest for a good shot


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## onemac (Dec 15, 2011)

wastedhours said:


> Not sure whether I'm being insulted or not, but what I meant was that you could be adjusting it nanometre by nanometre - you can be constantly adjusting and it will never be perfect. Not saying that you shouldn't strive for perfection, but there's always going to be room for improvement even at home.


Apologies - no insult intended - should have used a smilie







What I meant was that I have wasted hours chasing a decent shot.

Good news brun. Whatever you do don't turn the worm screw when you get it. Dial in from where its already factory set.

Al


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

I'm thinking of splashing out on a Rocky


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## brun (Dec 26, 2011)

This vid explains it all, 2 notches difference produces 2 totally different shots


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## Earlepap (Jan 8, 2012)

For what it's worth, I originally got a cheapo electric burr grinder that claimed to do espresso and found it was not up to the the task. I returned it and got a porlex hand grinder at half the price of the electric one and it does the job beautifully! Sure it's not as adjustable as a decent electric and is probably not as consistent, but if you're on a shoestring budget it seems to be the best option.


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