# Looking for semi-professional coffee machine



## hshearan (Dec 9, 2013)

Hello

I currently have a Miele CVA620 built in coffee machine which we have had for approximately 10 years. My husband would like us to upgrade to a semi-professional model in order to have more control of our coffee and to be able to produce better froth for our cappucinos. He has aspirations of producing some of the fabulous patterns you get in top notch independent coffee shops.

I would like to buy him a machine and grinder for xmas but I'm not entirely sure where to start. If anyone has any recommendations for a good machine I would appreciate any help I can get.

Thanks in advance

Helen

p.s. if anyone knows of a good amateur barista course I can send him on that would be good info too!!


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Where abouts are you based Helen?


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

...and what's your budget for machine and grinder?

Will these machines be on display in the kitchen (and hence looks are important) or tucked away (and hence performance more important than looks)?


----------



## hshearan (Dec 9, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Where abouts are you based Helen?


I am based in London.


----------



## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Budget is the killer question here


----------



## hshearan (Dec 9, 2013)

MrShades said:


> ...and what's your budget for machine and grinder?
> 
> Will these machines be on display in the kitchen (and hence looks are important) or tucked away (and hence performance more important than looks)?


I don't really have a set budget as such. I guess it would depend on the machine but I would be willing to pay around £1000. The machine would be on display so looks are important but not the over-riding consideration. Definitely want it to work well.


----------



## hshearan (Dec 9, 2013)

I would also consider paying above £1000 if there was a definite upside in quality and performance.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

hshearan said:


> I would also consider paying above £1000 if there was a definite upside in quality and performance.


That's the budget for machine and grinder ?


----------



## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

£1000+ budget will get you into serious machine territory. But you need to factor in a paired grinder, that is, a grinder capable matching the espresso machine's performance.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Hmmmm... for a combined machine + grinder the figure you've quoted is tricky - as the dual-boiler machines start at around that figure alone, so it's a difficult call as to whether your hubby would appreciate/value the additional benefits of a dual-boiler over and above an HX (heat exchanger) machine. If making milk based drinks, then the dual boiler has some advantages - especially if you're using a internal water reservoir rather than having it plumbed in.

So - for the espresso (so tempted to put an X in to annoy Gary) machine I'd probably look at an Expobar Office Leva : http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/heat-exchanger/expobar-office-leva-coffee-machine.html (it's about £900)

...or the dual boiler model if you want to increase the budget somewhat: http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/espresso-machines/dual-boiler/expobar-leva-dual-boiler-coffee-machine.html (it's a couple of hundred more).

For a grinder - to go with a sensible semi-pro machine, you're looking at an Eureka Mignon at the least (£279) : http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka/eureka-mignon-instantaneo-grinder-auto-manual-silver.html (pick your colour from the many available).

Personally, if looking for a grinder to suit the Expobars I'd look at a commercial or semi-commercial grinder - but these are often expensive if not bought 2nd hand, and are typically much larger and less neat/attractive. With it being a Christmas present I'm assuming you'd rather buy new and be sure of getting something than having to watch and wait for something better to crop up used. keep an eye on the For Sale / Wanted section on here though.

Not sure what others will suggest - but hopefully this helps... stretch the budget a little and get something that he'll love!


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

All good suggestion , Go and try them if you can at bella barista, where are you based as there are other retailers scattered around too.

Must be some retailers in London ?


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Well there is the usual advice of a Fracino Cherub or Heavenly which I believe are available for ~£650 leaving a reasonable budget for a grinder, their looks are a bit like marmite tho, you either love or hate them. The Nuova Simonelli Oscar, again the look of the machine may not be for everyone, this would be cheaper than the Fracino machines leaving even more for the grinder. The Eureka Mignon as mentioned in Mr Shades post is the absolute minimum standard of grinder that you would need coupled with any of the machines mentioned so far and to be honest, you would probably end up upgrading from one of those inside the 1st year of ownership , the key thing when buying a grinder, in my opinion is to buy one that will last you a number of years and also through possible machine upgrades as your coffee is only as good as the weakest link in the chain and if you do end up spending over £1k on a machine, it makes no sense to me to pair it with a ~£280 grinder.

Something to note the grinder should not be an afterthought i.e. don't spend 90% of your budget on a machine and 10% on a grinder as the grinder is as important, if not more important than the machine

I think it would be well worth your while shooting Coffeechap a pm and talking to him to see what grinders he has available at the moment, he might even have or know of available machines, buying used from enthusiasts on here, and from Coffeechap who strips down , refurbs and services every machine he sells, will make your budget go a lot further, but don't forget to budget for essentials such as tamper, jewellers scales, frothing jug, decent cups and most importantly freshly roasted beans, from a reputable supplier( see the UK roasters list in the Beans forum) and not from the Supermarket.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

^^^ very good advice from Charlie re talking with coffeechap and getting a better grinder.... A grinder from him will give the best of both worlds typically - "as new" commercial grinder at a great price!


----------



## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Echo the comments above if you had £1000 to spend get a HX machine and as good a grinder as possible, a secondhand reconditioned one of coffeechap would be perfect if he has anything suitable!!??


----------



## hshearan (Dec 9, 2013)

Thanks for the advice to date guys. It sounds like £1000 isn't enough to spend on both the machine and grinder. I'm happy to up the budget in order to get a better machine and grinder combo. I wouldn't want to skimp now and end up wanting to buy another machine later. I am assuming from your comments that a dual boiler is better than a heat exchange model?

If I up the budget for the machine and grinder to £2000 would you still recommend the Expobar Leva? It's my husband's 50th in April and I may combine christmas and birthday presents to justify the extra spend.


----------



## CFo (Aug 25, 2013)

He's a lucky man!


----------



## Jon12345 (Dec 2, 2013)

The Sage Dual Boiler is another option.


----------



## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Jon12345 said:


> The Sage Dual Boiler is another option.


or Rocket Espresso R58 £1699


----------



## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Would certainly speak to coffeechap if he is at all available suss a grinder then see what budget you have left an which one of the DB you can afford?


----------



## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

rocket giotto and a vario?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Fevmeister said:


> rocket giotto and a vario?


If i was getting a rocket, id want a bigger burr grinder to get the best from it . Depends on your space tho .

Varios new are expensive for what they are versus Second hand SJ's etc


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

kikapu said:


> or Rocket Espresso R58 £1699


Doesn't leave much for the grinder. Currently I would suggest that the Expobar Office Leva Dual Boiler is the best known bang for your buck, even though I am one of the people testing the Sage Dual Boiler I would still be a little hesitant to recommend it to someone new to espresso as it hasn't been "in the wild" for very long in the UK, and as far as I can see hasn't been introduced in its current version in the USA either. I do like the machine but it has some things that really niggle me about it.

If you bought the tank/plumbed version of the Expobar Dual Boiler for £1200 that would then leave you a very healthy budget for a grinder and all the necessary accessories, the question to ask now is how important are the looks of the set up to you and are there any size constraints? As an example you could most probably get a used Mahlkonig K30 for ~£600 and the remaining £200 on tamper, cups, scales, cleaning products and some nice beans.


----------



## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> If i was getting a rocket, id want a bigger burr grinder to get the best from it . Depends on your space tho .
> 
> Varios new are expensive for what they are versus Second hand SJ's etc


good point my man


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

I'm fairly sure most of us here are seriously jealous of your Husband









In 2k territory you are seriously into the kinda territory where he will never need to upgrade unless he starts lusting after 'Dream machines' (but this is 3k territory for machine and grinder, I think your hubby is lucky enough at 2k







)

Off the top of my head an Expobar Dual Boiler and maybe a second hand commercial grinder like a Mazzer Mini from coffeechap.

If he hasn't had much/any training with the machine then I would also find a way to get him some, as it can be a bit daunting learning how to use the machine to the best of its ability (and you might have the spare room in your Budget). You might find a friendly member here who can help, but if not I'm sure there are many places in London you can find such a course.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Expobar , decent grinder, few bit and bobs ( jug, beans , cups ) and a days training with Glenn ( 5 m coffee )

£2k well spent &#8230;..


----------



## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Doesn't leave much for the grinder. Currently I would suggest that the Expobar Office Leva Dual Boiler is the best known bang for your buck, even though I am one of the people testing the Sage Dual Boiler I would still be a little hesitant to recommend it to someone new to espresso as it hasn't been "in the wild" for very long in the UK, and as far as I can see hasn't been introduced in its current version in the USA either. I do like the machine but it has some things that really niggle me about it.
> 
> If you bought the tank/plumbed version of the Expobar Dual Boiler for £1200 that would then leave you a very healthy budget for a grinder and all the necessary accessories, the question to ask now is how important are the looks of the set up to you and are there any size constraints? As an example you could most probably get a used Mahlkonig K30 for ~£600 and the remaining £200 on tamper, cups, scales, cleaning products and some nice beans.


Yeah you are right I was just putting it out there as an option. I had forgot all the other bits tamper, cups, scales etc all adds up! In fact I would get a gaggia classic and MC2







and spend the rest on cups







who doesnt love some nice inkers and notneutral mmmmmmmmmmmm

As I said later I would sort a grinder first then see what budget remains for machine and odds and sods.

Would try and source the grinder secondhand and espresso machine new.


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

As I said your choice of the £1200 Dual Boiler machines, used K30, accessories, thats your £2k gone and a setup that unless you get into the ultimate dream machines upgrade territory will suit you for life. I would put the extra money on the grinder at the purchase stage because then you can make a decision on training at a later date and compared to the capital outlay a days training isn't much say ~£175 but that £175 spent on the grinder initially would reap greater rewards e.g. a K30 rather than a Mazzer Super Jolly.


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

^^^ Charlie talking lots of sense again - Expobar Dual Boiler + good refurbished semi-commercial grinder (send a PM to coffeechap and see what he has) + bits'n'pieces.

Cool.... he's one lucky man! My wife normally tries to talk me down when I'm purchasing coffee stuff, oh to have one that doubles the budget that easily.


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

How about an expobar dual boiler @ around £1050, a brand new mazzer major in chrome for £600 leaving you £350 for training and accessories....... Food for thought.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> How about an expobar dual boiler @ around £1050, a brand new mazzer major in chrome for £600 leaving you £350 for training and accessories....... Food for thought.


THat would be a boss set up, with enough left to get that latte art training !


----------



## MrShades (Jul 29, 2009)

Go with the Coffeechap!


----------



## dwalsh1 (Mar 3, 2010)

That combo is the nuts. Look no Further











coffeechap said:


> How about an expobar dual boiler @ around £1050, a brand new mazzer major in chrome for £600 leaving you £350 for training and accessories....... Food for thought.


----------



## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

I was in this position about a year ago, in the end I opted for a Alex Duetto and a Vario from Bella Barista and did their training course which was very helpful. I can recommend a visit to Bella Barista as they will let you try a variety of machines and you can look at a large selection. The only problem with a number of the grinders mentioned is that they are pretty big but not very pretty on the worksurface. You will need some accessories to start with, the tamper that comes with the duetto is ok to start, you will need a jug and then some scales but you can add the little things slowly as you appreciate what you need (want?)

Good luck with the search, you will get loads of different advice from everyone but certainly for this money you will get a great system whatever you choose.

Paul


----------



## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

CoffeeDoc said:


> The only problem with a number of the grinders mentioned is that they are pretty big but not very pretty on the worksurface.


No worries with the mazzer major in chrome...man that thing is reeeeal pretty


----------



## bubbajvegas (Jan 26, 2013)

dwalsh1 said:


> That combo is the nuts. Look no Further


^ agreed,won't get better for ya money


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The thing that so many people fall into at bella barista, is they go for the most expensive machine then scrimp on the grinder, the expobar or duetto or any of the great dual boilers, deserve so much more than a mignon or vario, which are bella baristas stock offering on most of the machines. I am biased towards the bigger burr set grinders, but ONLY because the grind quality knocks the socks off the smaller grinder I.e vario and mignon and better grind quality invariably means better coffee.......


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

All I can add now to the suggestions I have made is go with CoffeeChap on this one, won't get much or any better than that.


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The machine is akin to an oven. It will only produce a meal based on the quality of ingredients put into it. The grinder is more important than the machine. Do not buy a high end machine then pair it to the likes of a Vario. Thats like going and buying a designer dress then going to Primark for the rest!


----------



## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

dfk41 said:


> The machine is akin to an oven. It will only produce a meal based on the quality of ingredients put into it. The grinder is more important than the machine. Do not buy a high end machine then pair it to the likes of a Vario. Thats like going and buying a designer dress then going to Primark for the rest!


David is there something you wish to share with us about your inner self here?


----------



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Possibly! I was daft enough to pair the L1 with a Mignon and it was only after I had realised that to get the best out if it, I needed a grinder to equal or surpass it.....sorry if that disappoints!!


----------



## CoffeeDoc (Dec 26, 2012)

I am very loathe to disagree with coffechap ( who would dare!) and when I bought my system I think his comments about Bellabarista were valid. They now stock Compak K8 and K10, Eureka Zenith Club E and 65E as well as the Eureka Mythos and Macap M4D and the cheaper smaller grinders mentioned before. I cannot find anywhere else that it is possible to see and try such a wide range of kit. I would be very interested in comments on the various merits of the different high end grinders that they stock particularly K8 vs K10, and the Eureka Zenith and Mythos.

Paul


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agree Theres a wide range of grinders there but a new Mythos will 90 % of a £2k budget and and a K10 not far of 3/4 of it &#8230;...


----------



## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

CoffeeDoc said:


> I am very loathe to disagree with coffechap ( who would dare!) and when I bought my system I think his comments about Bellabarista were valid. They now stock Compak K8 and K10, Eureka Zenith Club E and 65E as well as the Eureka Mythos and Macap M4D and the cheaper smaller grinders mentioned before. I cannot find anywhere else that it is possible to see and try such a wide range of kit. I would be very interested in comments on the various merits of the different high end grinders that they stock particularly K8 vs K10, and the Eureka Zenith and Mythos.
> 
> Paul


You very dare indeed! But I like a challenge, you are correct about the eureka grinders, however the k8 and k10 are now not stocked by bella barista, my point was different, claudette will push you to buy the most expensive machine and then leave you with only the cheaper grinders with the remainder of your budget, bella barista are an excellent retailer who provide excellent machines, but by their OWN admission they are not up to speed with grinders.

Of the remaining grinders you have mentioned the mythos is £2000 and they have sold precisely none of them, the macap is over priced and not particularly good, leaving only the eurekas which are good grinders but not anywhere near as good as a £600 titanium burred major....

Coffeedoc if you would like my take on the grinders you mentioned I would be more than happy to share them with you as I am always happy to help with grinders.....


----------



## hshearan (Dec 9, 2013)

Thanks for all the replies. Its very much looking like a Expobar dual boiler and a mazzer major grinder - I'm a sucker for chrome!!

Thanks again

Helen


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

Great decision Helen. I'm sure your hubby will be over the moon with this set-up. I would love to hear how he gets on. Do keep us updated and point him to the forum for any help if he needs it.

What are you planning in regards to training?


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

You'll have one happy husband when he opens that present !

Maybe I should show this thread to my better half.

If Carlsberg did Christmas presents ........


----------



## Daren (Jan 16, 2012)

working dog said:


> If Carlsberg did Christmas presents ........


or

If Carlsberg did wives......


----------



## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Daren said:


> or
> 
> If Carlsberg did wives......


An apt description for 'hshearan' I do believe.


----------



## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Daren said:


> or
> 
> If Carlsberg did wives......


you make a good point


----------



## dgac (Feb 3, 2014)

Helen,

Did you find what you were looking for? I ask because I am just about to post to sell a well-maintained Izzo Alex Duetto MK II and Mazzer Mini grinder.

David


----------

