# Water - Reverse Osmosis



## Stevie

Hello,

Does anyone know the cost of a reverse osmosis system for a coffee shop? I guess the hardware needed and filter? I'm writing a business plan and its something I have no idea on what it costs - some ballpark figures would be useful!

Also, you know some coffee shops have a small tap on the counter coming from the filter so customer's can have filtered water - what are those taps called, what do they cost and where can I find them?

Thanks!


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## jlarkin

Sorry I know it's not a direct help but in case nobody has specifics you'll have to try to factor in the amount of water you think you want to put through it and check into the capacity and throughput of the RO system. We have one at home, so not really a great comparison but the company putting it in explained that it had a tank of a certain size (I forgot exactly but think it was just over 1 litre) and that it could process X amount of water per Y amount of time so ideally we don't want to use more than 1 litre per that amount of time or it'll not be as well filtered as it could be (or something).


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## Stevie

Fair point - maybe to play it safe just assume its a small but fairly busy coffee shop selling 250-300 drinks a day. I'd rather have a better system than I need, but I literally don't know if we're talking £500 or £5000...


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## 4085

have you tasted RO water? It strips everything out and in my humble, would be totally unsuitable unless you have a second mixer to start putting stuff back in. There are a few water experts on here @Xpenno who can help, but I think depending on the starting point of your unfiltered water, there may be simpler options


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## Stevie

Oh right! Well there you go... I didn't know this.

I'm in Brighton so its a super hard water area. Basically I need to price up what I need to get perfect water going into my espresso machine, to my water boiler, to my customer drinking tap and pitcher rinser....

I don't really know about the options. I could ask a coffee roaster who I may be using, but thought it would be easier to just post here for a ballpark number but perhaps, as usual, i've over simplified things! haha


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## jeebsy

Might be worth contacting Square Mile as they used to insist on it for cafes they supplied apparently.

The taps are called filtered water taps.


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## todski

i used to have a marine tank a few years ago with my own ro system at home , we were drinking the water from it until i spoke to RO-MAN who is a supplier of systems , he said dont drink it as the system strips out every thing all the minerals etc. basicley when you drink it the water pulls minerals from the body back into the water , thats what he told me.


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## todski

also if your on a meter it will cost a fortune as you use 5L to get 1L of R-O teh waste goes down the drain.


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## Stevie

Do you know the alternative for hard water areas?


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## Stevie

jeebsy said:


> Might be worth contacting Square Mile as they used to insist on it for cafes they supplied apparently.
> 
> The taps are called filtered water taps.


Well I did guess they were called that, but couldn't find the one i'm thinking of online to buy







- only the sort of consumer friendly home Brita ones.

edit: well i feel silly







http://www.tapstore.com/empura-10-water-filter-chrome-plated.html?utm_source=google&utm_medium=GoogleShopping&utm_campaign=googlebase&gclid=Cj0KEQjw2sO3BRD49-zdzfb8iLwBEiQAFZgZfL7dJ3KVsGdpnBlyb5bn2PkUCpFy0z9yraqyAJS2wN0aAskm8P8HAQ


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## jeebsy

Colonna use a bestmax premium and their water is Vinnie Jones hard. Hardness is only one thing you need to consider though. A lot of roasters do water filtration now so maybe worth speaking to whoever is supplying your beans


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## jeebsy

http://www.vyair.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idProduct=160&gclid=Cj0KEQjw2sO3BRD49-zdzfb8iLwBEiQAFZgZfCgXOPtDh5ogQVDDZakUkvQEy8j0do9609XnKFRS5_EaAgf18P8HAQ


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## DavecUK

todski said:


> i used to have a marine tank a few years ago with my own ro system at home , we were drinking the water from it until i spoke to RO-MAN who is a supplier of systems , he said dont drink it as the system strips out every thing all the minerals etc. basicley when you drink it the water pulls minerals from the body back into the water , thats what he told me.


Old wives tale, RO water is perfectly fine to drink.

For a coffee machine in a commercial setting....

http://solutions.3m.co.uk/wps/portal/3M/en_GB/3M_Purification/FiltrationSolutions/News/?PC_Z7_RJH9U5230OECC0I1DPVOSS0OJ4000000_assetId=1319234568416


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## espressotechno

Have a look at commercial ion-exchange systems such as Allpure, 3M, Brita, H2O, etc.

Don't bother with the salt-regeneration systems.

You espresso machine supplier should refuse to sell you a machine unless you fit a suitable softener system & should offer a cartridge replacement programme tailored to your needs....especially for Brighton water(!). Pick his brains...


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## jeebsy

Owns his own Strada, does Stevie


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## Stevie

jeebsy said:


> Owns his own Strada, does Stevie


That I do, thanks for the advice James.

Currently looking at Square Mile as a supplier - of course they can help with filtration but I wanted a little bit of independent thought and some early rough numbers to stick into my business plan.

Thanks for the advice all.


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## NickdeBug

This is worth a read if you have a spare 30 mins (or ask Xpenno as dfk suggests)


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## Mad Wally

We have two suppliers for cleaning up the water for our hydrogen generation systems:

Pure Pro http://shop.purepro.net/ (appear US but are Taiwan company)

and

Kinetico https://www.google.nl/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwi29fqQ0NbLAhWFIA8KHasNCXAQFgg8MAU&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kinetico.co.uk%2Ffiles%2Fresources%2Fbrochures%2FProductCatalogue-Commercial_mar12.pdf&usg=AFQjCNFUqJ3QZcvJAbzHHHgdVfzR5f67lA&sig2=Heu_zlz1r-PPVmSMgBxopA&cad=rja

For a long life of the membrane, especially in areas with hard water, I recommend using a water softer before the RO.


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## GlennV

NickdeBug said:


> This is worth a read if you have a spare 30 mins (or ask Xpenno as dfk suggests)


or there's a better formatted version of the same here: http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water%20Quality/Water%20FAQ.pdf


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## Stevie

Thanks for the advice, from what I've gathered here and from a Facebook group its probably better to just use a good filter system rather than RO... But i'm still open minded. From what I have read I am struggling to think why anyone would use RO when it wastes so much water and from a lot of expert's opinion doesn't make good espresso.


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## NickdeBug

Some people use RO to create zero(ish) content water and then add in minerals at their desired concentration. You can use mineral additive filters at the end of the RO process to achieve this.

Straight RO water does not seem to be recommended


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## Mad Wally

Stevie said:


> Thanks for the advice, from what I've gathered here and from a Facebook group its probably better to just use a good filter system rather than RO... But i'm still open minded. From what I have read I am struggling to think why anyone would use RO when it wastes so much water and from a lot of expert's opinion doesn't make good espresso.


Please bear in mind that the "filter" they are talking about is not really a filter (for removing solids) but a bed of ion-exchange resin. This resin may be cat-ion an-ion or mixed bed. I only work with mixed bed systems and these can make ultra-pure water. This is NOT what you want as it is very aggressive and will attack and dissolve most metals. Cat-ion and an-ion resins will work differently but I am not really familiar with them.

A RO system on the other hand will only remove between 90 and 98% of all contaminants from the water, depending on membrane type, operating pressure, temperature etc. They are commonly used in large kitchens for dish-washers, rinsing glasses and beverage preparation.


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## Stevie

Its the BWT premium thingy that I see a lot of coffee machines run on in hard water areas...


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## Coffeelord

I'm not sure I understand the difference between a low-end and a high-end system, as either system is only going to be as good as the cartridges and membranes you run. A high-end system that hasn't seen a filter change in 14 months is going to be significantly worse than a cheap eBay system. Likewise, re-filter that high end unit with cheap filters and membranes, and it's exactly the same thing. Maybe the finish on the cartridge housings is a little bit nicer, but really, the unit is nothing but a housing for filter cartridges.

I use a small 5 stage - basically a hot rodded residential system with a few more stages. A prefilter, two carbons, RO, and then a mixed bed DI stage. I use a Dow Filmtec 75gpd membrane. My water has never tested over 0 TDS, despite my source water being as high as 300 or so during the winter (when they are dumping salt everywhere).

As I understand it, many of these very high GPD commercial units actually see lower rejection rates, and lower product water quality than what you might get from a high quality residential setup.

Realistically, adding a tank like 80 gallon tank uses gives you plenty of RO water, on tap. So even with lower GPD numbers, you can still pull off the gallons you need when you need them.

If you need 300 gallons of product dilution water every day, you probably aren't worrying about the cost of a RO setup anyway, so it's moot.


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