# Fracino Contempo (Con2e LPG) and Fracino coffee grinder (model T)-Generator question



## misterh

Hi

I hope someone can help me here please.

I run a very busy mobile coffee van where I attend big shown, corporate gigs etc. and it's usually non-stop all day long. I have a 2 group Fracino duel fuel (Con2e LPG) and a Fracino coffee grinder, model T doing the work for me.

The setup works fine when running on mains power or hooked up to a generator supplier by the organiser. When running on gas and batteries, the batteries tend to run down too quickly (I have two leisure batteries, 115 and 110 Ah) connected to a 1000w inverter.

I'm now looking at getting a generator myself but is confused (due to lack of knowledge in the area) what size is needed. The spec looking at Fracinos catalogue states the following for the coffee machine:

Gas rating: 5500w

Electric rating: 350w

Element rating: 3kw

The grinder spec:

Motor watt: 275

My question is: What size (wattage) generator should I be looking at here? The obvious comes to 625w for the two machines so would a 1000/1200w generator do? Am I missing something crucial?

Thanks in advance.


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## DavecUK

Personally I would go for a 2 kw pure sine wave generator set... This allows for the heavy start up current of the grinder and the heating element being on also oversized means it won't be under such load e.g. running so fast and it's going to be quieter. Hyundai seem to make a good 2kw unit for around £500 and they are quiet as well.


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## grumpydaddy

Think 5 times motor current divided by 0.85 (typical power factor of a motor) plus electric rating of machine so in this instance 1968watts

Given a choice get an inverter generator as they are kinder to the electronics board found in some coffee machines


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## misterh

Thanks both!


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## Coffeelandy

misterh said:


> Thanks both!


Hi Mate,

I run these machines on all of my vehicles.

If you need a Genny it will need to be at least 4kw as the element in the machine is rated ar 2.85kw and don't use pure sine wave as it causes a short in the boiler refill sensor. Make sure your inverter is modified sine wave


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## grumpydaddy

That is really interesting in as much as the power you get from the mains in your house or as a hook-up at venues is pure sine wave. I wonder what actually caused your refill sensor problem

The advice above assumes that heating the boiler is done with gas


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## Coffeelandy

I forgot to also mention you need power from that Genny to run the pumps on the machine which are 300w plus your grinder which is also 300w plus a fridge which will be about 600.00.

Stay away from generators, they away do x ostrich and noise and most events away dare forbidding their use now.

If your batteries away are fading after a day that isn't normal. They either need replacing, reconditioning via a decent digital charger or you need to assess how much power you assess re drawing. Have you got anything else plugged in to your inverter?

Please assess real for any other information.


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## Coffeelandy

Excuse the mistakes my Sums ung has terrible predictive writing!!!


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## Coffeelandy

House hold power isn't pure sine wave as such. Sine wave frequency becomes more pronounced when switching from a 12v DC source and through an inverter. Appliances such as TVs and laptops prefer pure sine wave. Fracino Coffee machines hate them, I have 8 in as many vehicles and none of them work correctly using a PSW. I plugged every single one in to a PSW inverter I wanted to use and all with the same result. I sent it back and got a replacement with the same result. RCD plug sockets don't work with PSW either.They fool the socket into thinking there is a short.

I called Fracino wondering if it was my wiring, they said PSW inverters don't work with their machines which is why they sell and recommend MSW Inverters.

Running a small genny and using gas is a really inefficient system, the batteries need to be correctly charged and the correct draw used on them. You should easily get a couple of full days from using gas and battery. I wonder what other appliances our friend is running out of them?


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## grumpydaddy

I do not want to get into an argument of any kind but household supplies ARE sinusoidal and the regulations under which power companies generate those supplies are very strict with regard frequency too. Believe it or not, if the frequency is off then certain items like mains powered clocks will be inaccurate

On the subject of RCD's it has been often seen that these do not like waveforms other than sine as they in fact often rely on measuring the peak voltage (338v) The 240v measurement that we all refer to is in fact an rms value.

In general with generators you get what you pay for and cheaper modified sine wave versions are the ones that cut corners when it comes to voltage regulation when presented with a switched large load. Inductive loads such as motors present serious problems to these non sine wave systems especially if they are working at their limits.

Finally, on the safety front, not all generators have the earth/ground terminal bonded to the neutral as is usually (but not always) found in domestic supplies. All modern installations are built this way though. This lack of bonding is also cause for concern in rcd's and electronics

I really must talk to Fracino to try to find out why their advice is contrary to just about every technical note I have ever read on the subject.

I know time moves on and modern technology displaces the old but the basic tenants of generation have not changed in the almost 40 years since I was taught. (That was on much bigger equipment but the loads were bigger too)


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## coffeebean

How long do the batteries actually last?


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## grumpydaddy

I wondered how long it would take to get to this question.

The answer will depend on a number of factors such as size, design, age and whether or not they are regularly and properly charged.

One thought that has crossed my mind is whether it is feasible to use a smaller generator, together with a multi-rate charger, with the sole purpose of charging the batteries.

The downside again is cost (the initial purchase would be of generator, batteries, charger and inverter) and the batteries need to be replaced at some point anyway.


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## coffeebean

Hi @grumpydaddy, was directing my question to @misterh - I use the same machine with batteries and inverter and don't have any problems with it so I know how long the batteries last - was just curious how long HIS batteries were lasting.....hours, minutes?


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## Coffeelandy

Yep, call Fracino maybe you can get some decent reason. I even earthed the PSW to the metal bodywork to all the vehicles to no avail. I can only guess that a gruff power hungry element doesn't care about PSW or MSW but for some reason the boiler refill sensor wouldn't behave using the PSW. Interestingly my Waeco CF110 hates MSW it makes a hideous crackling sound which I immediately interpreted as bad. Annoyingly, that did like my PSW inverter. I plumbed it straight into my 12v system on one of the Landys and it was fine.

If you can think of a reason I'd be interested to hear it.


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## Coffeelandy

grumpydaddy said:


> I wondered how long it would take to get to this question.
> 
> The answer will depend on a number of factors such as size, design, age and whether or not they are regularly and properly charged.
> 
> One thought that has crossed my mind is whether it is feasible to use a smaller generator, together with a multi-rate charger, with the sole purpose of charging the batteries.
> 
> The downside again is cost (the initial purchase would be of generator, batteries, charger and inverter) and the batteries need to be replaced at some point anyway.


Although I shun gennys, I have used this technique before and it does work well. I had a 1000kw Honda suitcase genny and I figured that if I fed more power into the batts than I was using combined with using gas for the element, then I could last as long as I had petrol and it worked a treat. A small genny lasts all day and when you're batteries are charged, switch it off and crack on until they need a top up.

Just coffee machine pumps, grinder and fridge totals 680w and they rarely run simultaneously, thus giving your genny breathing space to get power into your batteries. Try it.


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## Coffeelandy

Yep, call Fracino maybe you can get some decent reason. I even earthed the PSW to the metal bodywork to all the vehicles to no avail. I can only guess that a gruff power hungry element doesn't care about PSW or MSW but for some reason the boiler refill sensor wouldn't behave using the PSW. Interestingly my Waeco CF110 hates MSW it makes a hideous crackling sound which I immediately interpreted as bad. Annoyingly, that did like my PSW inverter. I plumbed it straight into my 12v system on one of the Landys and it was fine.

If you can think of a reason I'd be interested to hear it.


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## blueray

I run a Fracino on LPG everything else I run on two 120AH batteries and an inverter the batteries are charged via a split charger from the van alternator.

when I get to my location the system will run very happy all day, I did have a problem at the start as I only used one battery and it would expire after about five hours,

I did also start out with a non PSW inverter which lasted about a month and completely blew.

I would like to find out which silent genny would run the coffee machine anyone out there know?


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