# Grinder blues



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

Actually not even ever had a grinder. Can't find one at a sensible price.

My question is this. How much do I need a grinder when I can get espresso ground coffee delivered to the door?


----------



## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

Cos' it will be stale...

Also it won't taste fantastic as you adjust the grind to tweak the balance. If you've got a pressurised portafilter or you are happy with what you get then that's all that matters. Even a hand grinder will make a difference compared to pre-ground.

My other half gets espresso grind coffee sometimes, but just puts a teaspoon in a cup and adds hot water.


----------



## NJD1977 (Dec 16, 2014)

What are you brewing with? An espresso machine has to have a grinder to be able to dial in the right grind size. Other methods could get away with pre ground but as above, it doesn't stay fresh for very long.


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

People will argue over the numbers, I'm picking 20 just to illustrate the point, not give actual times. But they say that coffee is good as follows:

Greens: 20 months

Beans (roasted): 20 days

Grounds: 20 minutes.

As I say, don't focus on the 20, let it sink in that you can enjoy roasted whole beans for weeks after roasting, but once ground, their flavour will oxidise in minutes. Preground coffee is a last resort, stale before it's even posted -- grinding it yourself is where the flavour is.

Another generally accepted pearl of wisdom is that the grinder is the most important part of the chain after quality beans. With most brewing methods being relatively affordable it's less of an issue, but with espresso, the grinder will probably make more difference pound for pound than an espresso machine. As such, especially at the entry level, grinder should be the focus of maybe at least half the overall budget. This often comes as a surprise to many.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


----------



## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Completely agree with the above.

Also, if its being ground for espresso, the roaster doesn't really know what machine you're using, what pressure it pulls a shot at, how hot it runs, etc.

So whatever grind setting they take a punt at is what you're stuck with until you finish the bag. If it gives you 18:36 in 5 seconds or a minute you can't do anything about it.

If it's for filter then yeah, grind setting perhaps doesn't matter QUITE as much, but as said before it starts going stale after minutes. It might still taste like "coffee" but you lose all the fun of trying to draw out the best flavour or really nailing those tasting notes. You just end up with something warm and brown, which is fine if that's what you're after, but far less fun and tasty!

What method are you wanting to brew with and what do you class as a sensible price? Sure people would be happy to chip in some suggestions!


----------



## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Quantumturbo said:


> Actually not even ever had a grinder. Can't find one at a sensible price.
> 
> My question is this. How much do I need a grinder when I can get espresso ground coffee delivered to the door?


 We're all really thick and didn't realise we could get ground coffee delivered. That's the thing.

Or none of us are sensible.

In all seriousness it's probably not rational to spend the amounts a lot of us have on our gear, many of us own things that cost many times more than it was necessary to spend. But grinders are never going to be considered something superfluous. There are economical ways of going about your business RE grinders. Buying used commercial offers the best value for money. A Mazzer Royal with titanium burrs recently went in the for sale section with approx £50 extras that could be sold on, so the total real cost could be around £300. For contrast a new sage grinder will set you back approx £200.

If you don't want to spend this kind of money on a grinder forget espresso. Get a Wilfa or something and enjoy brewed instead.


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm going to try really hard here.


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

Ok thanks. I hadn't bargained for the importance of grinding your own beans. Maybe I will be able to be satisfied with pre-ground nfor awhile at least.

I'm very surprised at how few options there are in home grinders, certainly that are thought of as decent. They either seem to be hard to change grind size efficiently or be poorly constructed in some way. Niche zero seems to have filled a error niche but at a price. Room for another maker I'd say.

I bought a Gaggia Classic pro.


----------



## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Have you considered hand grinders. I recently replaced my Eureka Mignon with a 1zpresso JX Pro. The grind quality is imo better than the Mignon, it has less retention than a Niche Zero and is perfect for single dosing. I can grind 18g in around 25 seconds and they are around £200.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

ChilledMatt said:


> Have you considered hand grinders. I recently replaced my Eureka Mignon with a 1zpresso JX Pro. The grind quality is imo better than the Mignon, it has less retention than a Niche Zero and is perfect for single dosing. I can grind 18g in around 25 seconds and they are around £200.
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


 How would a manual grinder work alternating grinding for aeropress as well?


----------



## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Quantumturbo said:


> How would a manual grinder work alternating grinding for aeropress as well?


Very easily. Either count the clicks in either direction or make a note of the grind number.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

I'm sorry you all must be solo tired of these questions on grinders. It's hard for me to know what level to start at. I've been pretty happy till now using shop bought coffee with a French press and latterly an aeropress. I'm just wanting to go to the next level and bought the Gaggia.

Given that longevity and fixability is important to me would a Sage Smart Pro disappoint? I'd love a Niche but at over twice the price....


----------



## Bicky (Oct 24, 2019)

Buy one from Lakeland and you'll get a 3 year warranty, beyond that, who can say 🤷‍♂️

Many don't agree, but I think it's a decent entry level grinder, and certainly a big step up from buying pre-ground coffee. It does however suffer from retention, so you will have to purge some grounds between grind adjustments, or when switching brew methods. If you are switching between different methods often, it may not be ideal.


----------



## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

The sage is okay, but nothing spectacular. I struggle to see why anyone buys a new sage when you could get a used eureka mignon for a similar price. For me, they're better overall and prettier.

Neither will switch between espresso and brewed easily though. Is that still a priority?


----------



## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Quantumturbo said:


> I'm sorry you all must be solo tired of these questions on grinders. It's hard for me to know what level to start at. I've been pretty happy till now using shop bought coffee with a French press and latterly an aeropress. I'm just wanting to go to the next level and bought the Gaggia.
> Given that longevity and fixability is important to me would a Sage Smart Pro disappoint? I'd love a Niche but at over twice the price....


If longevity and fixability are import deciding factors I would suggest that these are not Sage products strongest attributes.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

jaffro said:


> Neither will switch between espresso and brewed easily though. Is that still a priority?


 Yes it is. My wife won't have time for my Gaggia, there again she probably will put up with bought grounds. 2nd hand grinders seem to go like hot cakes and I've missed out a few times. Eureka mignon then? why isn't it good at changing grinds? What size is it?


----------



## Boxerman33 (Jul 2, 2019)

if you're on a tight budget a used Sage SGP might not be the worst idea, really easy for you wife to use for French Press etc too, but still using beans rather than pre-ground!


----------



## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Quantumturbo said:


> Yes it is. My wife won't have time for my Gaggia, there again she probably will put up with bought grounds. 2nd hand grinders seem to go like hot cakes and I've missed out a few times. Eureka mignon then? why isn't it good at changing grinds? What size is it?


 Ah fair enough!

The eureka mignon is pretty small. I haven't actually seen them side by side, but I'd say they're fairly similar, or perhaps the eureka is a little smaller at a guess.

Before I got the Niche I had a mk1 mignon. You'd have to check the new mk3 mignon to see if it's any better, but switching from brewed to espresso before really wasn't convenient.

The eureka dial didn't lend itself to big swings in grind setting - you'd have had to fully rotate the knob several times to change between filter and espresso settings, then you'd have to remember how many rotations you'd have to do to get back in the region for espresso, then you'd have to dial it back in again. Bit of a faff.

Also, without modifying it isn't really designed to be used for single dosing, it's supposed to have a hopper full of beans on top. Moving from espresso to filter would be okay because you could just unscrew it a fair bit, then purge any retained espresso grounds out. However, moving back to espresso would be a ball ache because you have to purge several times as you tighten the grind to get rid of any grinds stuck between the burrs. This would use up some of the beans every time you moved back to espresso and be quite wasteful.

Someone else might have a better idea of how to go back from filter to espresso with either grinder. I'm not saying it's not possible, just that it's not convenient and it's a bit wasteful.

Does any of that make sense?


----------



## Bicky (Oct 24, 2019)

jaffro said:


> The sage is okay, but nothing spectacular. I struggle to see why anyone buys a new sage when you could get a used eureka mignon for a similar price. For me, they're better overall and prettier.


 Peace of mind of a 3 year warranty through a high street retailer, over buying off a random stranger online with potentially no, or much less, warranty or guarantee of how well it's been cared for? Surely you can see why that might appeal to some people.

I mean, if the difference in quality is huge, then maybe the point is moot, but is it? 🤔



Quantumturbo said:


> Yes it is. My wife won't have time for my Gaggia, there again she probably will put up with bought grounds. 2nd hand grinders seem to go like hot cakes and I've missed out a few times. Eureka mignon then? why isn't it good at changing grinds? What size is it?


 All these grinders suffer from retention, where some of the coffee you grind stays in the grinder until you grind more through, when the new grinds push out or dislodge the older grinds. Obviously if you're going from espresso to say french press, you don't want some of those old espresso grounds going into your cafetiere, so generally you'd have to adjust your grind for french press then purge some coffee through to get rid of those old espresso grinds, and vice versa. This may be a simplification of what actually happens, but you get the point.

I've never owned a Mignon but I believe they all have a stepless grind adjustment which is quite sensitive to change, which is great when you want to accurately dial in for one brew method, but I guess less than ideal if you want to switch back and forth because it could be more difficult to find that exact setting you previously dialled in? On the other hand the SGP has a stepped grind adjustment, so you have much less fine-grained control over the grind, but you'll have numbers that you can use for reference to move back and forth. Neither are ideal for constantly changing.


----------



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

hotmetal said:


> .........at the entry level, grinder should be the focus of maybe at least half the overall budget. This often comes as a surprise to many.


 Not just a surprise - it is often totally ignored ;-)

The number of times I see "I've bought a brand new "Shiny Machine" but it's not producing any "Wow".......

Q: What grinder?

A: Oh I use a "pestle & mortar"/cheap plastic/buy ground/get it ground my budget didn't allow for a (decent) grinder...

Even sometimes when "budget" could stretch to a grand or so for a machine!


----------



## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Bicky said:


> Peace of mind of a 3 year warranty through a high street retailer, over buying off a random stranger online with potentially no, or much less, warranty or guarantee of how well it's been cared for? Surely you can see why that might appeal to some people.
> 
> I mean, if the difference in quality is huge, then maybe the point is moot, but is it? 🤔


 Yeah I mean I see where you're coming from. But I'd say the mignon has a level of reliability that the SGP doesn't have. I'd have no worries about the longevity of a mignon, but I'm not sure about the longevity of the SGP.

To be honest, I'm a bit skeptical about the amount of electronics in the SGP. Much more to go wrong, I feel like if I bought one I might end up needing that warranty.

The mk1 and mk2 mignon are just a motor, some decent enough burrs and an adjustment knob. They should last for years and if they're bought off the forum then usually they've been treated well.

I haven't compared the two side by side, but the SGP overall just has very mixed reviews.

Usually a second hand mignon would be between £120-200 depending on which model it is, how old it is and what condition it's in. Compared to a £200 new SGP from lakeland or John Lewis where you'd get a good warranty.

Each to their own, obviously, but if I had £200 to spend on a grinder the SGP wouldn't be a contender for me at all personally. I'd be looking for a good used grinder all the way, you just get so much more bang for your buck.


----------



## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

jaffro said:


> Yeah I mean I see where you're coming from. But I'd say the mignon has a level of reliability that the SGP doesn't have. I'd have no worries about the longevity of a mignon, but I'm not sure about the longevity of the SGP.
> To be honest, I'm a bit skeptical about the amount of electronics in the SGP. Much more to go wrong, I feel like if I bought one I might end up needing that warranty.
> The mk1 and mk2 mignon are just a motor, some decent enough burrs and an adjustment knob. They should last for years and if they're bought off the forum then usually they've been treated well.
> I haven't compared the two side by side, but the SGP overall just has very mixed reviews.
> ...


I see no reason why a well cared for Mignon wouldn't last a lifetime.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

Bicky said:


> Peace of mind of a 3 year warranty through a high street retailer, over buying off a random stranger online with potentially no, or much less, warranty or guarantee of how well it's been cared for? Surely you can see why that might appeal to some people.
> 
> I mean, if the difference in quality is huge, then maybe the point is moot, but is it? 🤔
> 
> ...


 Thanks. What affordable stepped grinders are out there? My budget would be up to £250 max we


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

Ok so I'm leaning towards a hand grinder for grinding for espresso and aeropress.I know nothing about them. What are your suggestions? Presumably click stops? My YouTube research leans me towards Comandante c40. ?


----------



## Bicky (Oct 24, 2019)

The Commandante seemed to be well liked everywhere I've seen/read. Not sure if you need to Red Clix upgrade though, for more control in the espresso range? Worth doing a bit of research....

I've got a 1zpresso JX Pro which is another option - solid, well built, and I've used it to switch between espresso, pour over and french press, with good results. With all these manual grinders you just have to remember the number of clicks or rotations between the different methods, and take a mental note of the last method used so you know where you are the next time!

As long as you are comfortable with the effort required, I think a hand grinder is definitely a good shout for your needs.


----------



## Japles (Jul 3, 2020)

Quantumturbo said:


> Ok so I'm leaning towards a hand grinder for grinding for espresso and aeropress.I know nothing about them. What are your suggestions? Presumably click stops? My YouTube research leans me towards Comandante c40. ?


 If you're a bit apprehensious about spending a not-insignificant amount of money on a coffee grinder, I'd recommend getting one of the super cheap hand (~£10) grinders from Amazon and having a good play around with it. You'll hate it after the novelty wears off as they take easily 5x as long to grind beans as a proper premium grade grinder and won't grind anywhere near as nice or consistently but it'll open your eyes as to why you need a good one and give you an idea of what coffee you can make.

James Hoffman had a pretty good video reviewing most of the really good hand grinders on YouTube with pros/cons which is definitely worth a watch.


----------



## lhavelund (Dec 28, 2018)

Japles said:


> If you're a bit apprehensious about spending a not-insignificant amount of money on a coffee grinder, I'd recommend getting one of the super cheap hand (~£10) grinders from Amazon and having a good play around with it. You'll hate it after the novelty wears off as they take easily 5x as long to grind beans as a proper premium grade grinder and won't grind anywhere near as nice or consistently but it'll open your eyes as to why you need a good one and give you an idea of what coffee you can make.
> James Hoffman had a pretty good video reviewing most of the really good hand grinders on YouTube with pros/cons which is definitely worth a watch.


Might as well go straight to something decent. Buying a €10 grinder only to replace it with something that actually grinds properly is pretty wasteful, especially when Quantumturbo already realised you shouldn't skimp out on a grinder.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk


----------



## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

Quantumturbo said:


> Ok so I'm leaning towards a hand grinder for grinding for espresso and aeropress.I know nothing about them. What are your suggestions? Presumably click stops? My YouTube research leans me towards Comandante c40. ?


 There are a fair few good ones out there.

Have a watch of this video (don't think anyone has linked it yet, but sorry if I missed it!). Bear in mind, though, that James could only get an Made By Knock Aergrind for the video, whereas if your budget is up at the Commandante end of the scale you could definitely go for a Feld47 (although that doesn't mean the aergrind isn't a good choice).

Made By Knock make some awesome grinders, still have mine that I bought 5 years ago and it's the perfect office/travel grinder.


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks all. That's the video I saw. Obviously I'd like to spend as little as possible but no point skimping if it's not up to the job. I'm new to all this so I'm sure I can't taste the difference that most of you can. The 1zpressso seems out of stock as do many other grinders due to lockdown I presume. What made by knock would you recommend for my aeropress/espresso needs?


----------



## Mark70 (Jan 12, 2020)

Quantumturbo said:


> Thanks all. That's the video I saw. Obviously I'd like to spend as little as possible but no point skimping if it's not up to the job. I'm new to all this so I'm sure I can't taste the difference that most of you can. The 1zpressso seems out of stock as do many other grinders due to lockdown I presume. What made by knock would you recommend for my aeropress/espresso needs?


 Yesterday I ordered a 1zPresso JX Pro direct from the company as it was out of stock in the UK. Paid about £140 via PayPal and I expect to get charged about £35 to £40 in VAT fees etc when delivered. Shipping notice from Fed Ex this morning with anticipated deliver on Wednesday. Not bad I think.

I would have preferred to buy in the UK but I need it for next week when I go on holiday.


----------



## ChilledMatt (May 9, 2015)

Mark70 said:


> Yesterday I ordered a 1zPresso JX Pro direct from the company as it was out of stock in the UK. Paid about £140 via PayPal and I expect to get charged about £35 to £40 in VAT fees etc when delivered. Shipping notice from Fed Ex this morning with anticipated deliver on Wednesday. Not bad I think.
> I would have preferred to buy in the UK but I need it for next week when I go on holiday.


I think this is a good option. I spoke to Bella Barista this morning and they are awaiting a restock and expect it to arrive towards the end of August.

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

Ok so I went and ordered the only decent grinder I could find available to get delivered before my holiday. A Comandante. Nice bit of kit I'm trying to get the hang of 😬. So far I have only managed espresso shots that come through too quick or one that seemed to block the portafilter 😔. I presume I need a grind that's somewhere between the two?

I'm taking my aeropress on holiday and hope to get to grips with grinding for that then - I guess rather coarser?

Thanks


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

You got yourself a lovely grinder there. For aeropress definitely coarser than espresso, but not by much. If you had a shot that ran through in less than 15" I'd give that a go in the aeropress and see how you get on. It's almost impossible to over extract in an aeropress due to the declining temperature profile, so try a real long steep, 10/15 minutes. Brings out a lot more flavour than the usual 2 minute ones, although they can be great with some coffees too.

___
Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

hotmetal said:


> You got yourself a lovely grinder there. For aeropress definitely coarser than espresso, but not by much. If you had a shot that ran through in less than 15" I'd give that a go in the aeropress and see how you get on. It's almost impossible to over extract in an aeropress due to the declining temperature profile, so try a real long steep, 10/15 minutes. Brings out a lot more flavour than the usual 2 minute ones, although they can be great with some coffees too.
> 
> ___
> Eat, drink and be merry


 Thanks. I had a decent one slightly coarser than espresso and it was rather better than I've ever had with pre-ground. I struggle with getting a hot enough drink though as we do like milky.

The espresso grind I did blocked the Gaggia and I'm unsure why. Too much coffee and should I not have tamped?

I don't thing it was ground too fine but maybe it was.

Such a learning curve.


----------



## Sam_d (Feb 8, 2019)

Hay so if you manage to choke you gaggia classic I would say that you did grind to fine so try going a little courser untill you start Getty Ng the shot times your after. 
Also are you using standard baskets or are you using pressurised baskets (I believe the pressurised baskets have ether 1 hole or just a couple on the under side) 
As for tamping if your using standard non pressurised baskets always tamp. Don't be to concerned on trying to get a specific tamping pressure, but do try to be consistent from tamp to tamp. 
As for unpressurized baskets I as with most everyone will advise to buy a standard basket as it will help improve your espresso so much. They are normally used for pre-ground coffee and I believe you don't need to tamp as the 1 or couple of holes make a massage be restriction and help build the pressure tamping in a standard basket would produce. 
I hope this helps

Sent from my 5033X_EEA using Tapatalk


----------



## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Too much coffee can choke a Classic, as will too fine a grind. A decent grinder like that is quite capable of grinding finer than you want. Too fine AND too much is almost guaranteed to choke a Gaggia even with a normal (non-pressurised) basket, which you should be using now. You should tamp to remove all pockets and create a uniform density for the water to go through. If not tamping is the only way of not choking then go a bit coarser but try to develop a consistent tamp. Flat, firm, not silly heavy but enough to compress the puck fully.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

Thanks. To be clear I'm using the standard unpressurized basket


----------



## mbenney (Apr 18, 2020)

Quantumturbo said:


> Thanks. To be clear I'm using the standard unpressurized basket


 Hello,

Don't want to be a negative nancy, but I've been using the Comandante C40 for the last 3.5 months and without the Red Clix upgrade I would say it's really not suitable for dialing in espresso. The pour time can vary up to 8 seconds between the clicks. It's more like 4 seconds with the Red Clix axle.

That said I've found it a bit of a pain switching between settings for different beans and seem to often lose my place and have to dial in again.

I've just ordered a Niche and wish I had done right off the bat.


----------



## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

mbenney said:


> Hello,
> 
> Don't want to be a negative nancy, but I've been using the Comandante C40 for the last 3.5 months and without the Red Clix upgrade I would say it's really not suitable for dialing in espresso. The pour time can vary up to 8 seconds between the clicks. It's more like 4 seconds with the Red Clix axle.
> 
> ...


 A negative nancy is good, Life is about balance 

Hand grinders are ok for drip/filter but then you could argue you don't need espresso finesse for either so just get a cheap electric burr and save the wrists if you are looking to save money or a Hario mini if you haven't got mains electricity.

Don't really see the point of a £300 250 hand grinder tbh


----------



## Home Coffee Tips (May 5, 2020)

A hand grinder is the cheapest option as you can get burr one for around £30 but if you are thinking long term that you won't want to crank it every day then an electric one is worth the investment. The Sage Smart Grinder Pro is a pretty reasonably priced espresso quality grinder


----------



## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Only thing in that price range is the Kinu M47.


----------



## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

I used a hand grinder for a week which was 7 days too long tbh.

It's now sat in the camping box.


----------



## Power Freak (Dec 14, 2018)

Blue_Cafe said:


> A negative nancy is good, Life is about balance
> 
> Hand grinders are ok for drip/filter but then you could argue you don't need espresso finesse for either so just get a cheap electric burr and save the wrists if you are looking to save money or a Hario mini if you haven't got mains electricity.
> 
> Don't really see the point of a £300 250 hand grinder tbh


 The OE pharos can be had for around £300 new, to get comparable quality in a powered grinder you'd have to jump up to a Niche really. If you're willing to put in the effort (and you don't have athritis/bad joints/etc.) you can get some really great quality.

Main issue with most hand grinders is adjustment in the espresso range, especially in the "stick" style ones like the knocks/kinus/etc. OE do a lido with a different thread that allows for good espresso range dialing in (called the Lido E or ET) which is good if you can live with the form factor - haven't tried adjusting down to filter levels on one but imagine it'd do OK. Otherwise the OE pharos is great but not particularly ergonomic (you need to be quite strong especially if you're going for very fine espressos or light roasts) - you can just about get to filter grinds on it but I wouldn't use it for a french press/cupping really. I hear the rok grinder is meant to be easy to use and decent quality but I've never used one.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Home Coffee Tips said:


> A hand grinder is the cheapest option as you can get burr one for around £30 but if you are thinking long term that you won't want to crank it every day then an electric one is worth the investment. The Sage Smart Grinder Pro is a pretty reasonably priced espresso quality grinder


 I wouldn't be recommending 30 quid hand grinder for espresso tbh , steps to big to make any real adjustments and at a fine settings they are going to be really inconsistent .


----------



## Quantumturbo (Jun 6, 2020)

I'm loving the grind and coffees I'm getting on holiday with the Comandante and aeropress. Am finding it no chore at all grinding for two coffees. Will have to experiment for the Gaggia when I get home. Not sure how many clicks finer to go.


----------

