# L1 owners



## 4085

Morning all......I know now, that there are several owners in this forum. We all have different levels of experience, and are probably experiencing different shots. So, I wondered if we could share and offer help. I hate boring people to death with long personal accounts, so I will be brief.

Experienced in the coffee world, but not with levers. have had 3 cheap stick type La Pav and Gaggia. I took the advice offered by Reiss and after 3 days oof playing, decided to ignore that, or rtaher use it as a base for exploration. Initially, I was told to concentrate on the grind, tamp only to polish. Lower the lever and not be concerned about how long the first drips of pre infusion took. For me, this was often 60 seconds and more and thats without a tamp! Once the first drips showed, raise the handle and begin your extraction count.

I now have slightly coarsened the grind, and give it my usual 30 lb type tamp. I drop the handle, count to 7 (as I thought pre infusion was just to dampen the puck before the spring kicks in) then raise it. Within a couple of seconds, the pour starts and this way, I am getting consistently nice shots, that time out around the desired 27 second mark.

So, next thing I need to understand, is I have some shot cups that are lined and marked at 4 levels, single and double ristretto and sinlge and level shots. If the nirvana for a double is 27 seconds, then should a single be 13.5, and the same with ristretto. I guess the question is if I am pulling 27 fro a double shot, and I want a double ristretto, do I fine the grind to slow her down?

The point of this thread, is for us L1 owners to chat and share experiences and thoughts.......who is going to add some first?


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> The point of this thread, is for us L1 owners to chat and share experiences and thoughts.......who is going to add some first?


Hi David, only just getting to grips with my LI. Used my Vario to get things rolling. First shot was, er, no shot as I had the grind too fine so backed off the Vario one full macro setting leaving it on '2' with micro setting at 2/3rds, i.e. just short of macro setting '3'. I am using Londinium beans by the way. Results on this setting were very pleasing. Preinfused for around six seconds and let the lever do its things. I tamped quite lightly for this setting. Then I tried the HG - that was fun! Rather than waste good coffee beans, used some Booths supermarket beans to tune in the HG. After a few attempts, got there or there abouts and then tried the Londinium beans with the same setting. The result was truly stonking - huge, huge flavours that grabbed the attention. Don't think I have got it anywhere near fine tuned but so far, so very pleasing. I am dosing at 15.8grm as recommended by Reiss and using the double basket in the single spout portafilter and extracting into an Ancap single espresso cup to about three quarters full or until blonding occurs.


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## iroko

Hi guys,

I'm still struggling to get good consistent shots, I've played around with pre infusion times from 5 to 30 secs, light and hard tamps and I never know if I'm going to

get a good or bad shot.

I've just finished a batch of Brazilian bourbon with not bad results and gone on to a fresh batch of Cuban tuquino, normaly I would back off the grinder slighty

but left it the same setting and the shot gushed through in less than 10 secs, I've really had to tighten the grind but still no where near 27 secs.

I think I need more practice.


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## The Systemic Kid

iroko said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm still struggling to get good consistent shots, I've played around with pre infusion times from 5 to 30 secs, light and hard tamps and I never know if I'm going to get a good or bad shot.


What's your dose weight? I follow Reiss's recommendation of 15.8grms and pre infuse for 6-8 secs. Having got things sorted vis a vis achieving good to very good shots, I decided to try my VST basket - bad idea - the shot gushed out with the same dose weight and tamp pressure. This taught me that LI is a demanding mistress.


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## 4085

Hi

I really struggled initially with my shots. I was following advice r=from Reiss, who said to grind fine and only tamp to polish. What you have described above was happening to me. I was told to bring the lever down, and not worry at all, how long it took for the first drips to show, and then, and only then to raise the lever. Reiss said that lighter beans would take longer to drip than darker and they may take up to 60 seconds. I followed this religiously, then got my new grinder and decided to change. I coarsened the grind a little, and now give it a good firm, but consistent tamp. from dropping the handle, I count to 7, slowly, then raise it. The first drips come through within a couple of seconds.

Now, I have not perfected it yet either. I have espresso cups that have 4 markings on for single and double shots and ristrettos. and the 27 second mark can end up anywhere between the first and last. But it will improve with more playing but for now I a happy. I know some may turn in their grave at what I have described, but we are all learning with lever machines. perhaps when I am more experienced, I can go back and try a finer grind and less of a tamp, but for now......if it helps, tomorrow I will make a video so you can see.......let me know


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## 4085

To add to Systemics bit, I now dose at 16 gms. i find anything more and the L1 behaves erratically. this is making me go for ristretto shots now, which she lends herself to nicely.


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## iroko

I'm dosing 15-15.8, I've never left the lever down till it starts to drip, I'll give that a try at the weekend.

A video would be good.

I got some new burrs for my grinder, but I worked out I've only done about 600 shots through the grinder, so I don't think I need to change them.

Maybe It's my dodgy roasting


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## aaronb

I'm inconsistent on mine too, its all a learning curve right? I keep my dose consistent at 15.8g, but have tried updosing. On really fresh beans It takes ages to preinfuse, once they hit about 21 days age from roast they begin to drip within about 3 seconds of pre-infusion I only drink light roasted coffee).

I rarely get a perfect cone either, was thinking of trying a VST but people have said it isn't any improvement on the stock basket :s


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## 4085

Chaps, I do not profess to be an expert.......I chatted this through with coffeechap on facetime, and between us, we could not work out the advice given on pre infusion etc. grind a little coarser, give it a good tamp to 30 lbs if you can. Drop the lever, count 1000 etc to 7000, raise the lever and the first drips ought to appear in a couple of seconds. I roast fairly lightly as well. Do not wait for the pre infusion drips to appear! The point, is to dampen the puck prior to the lever forcing the water through. ou do not have to let it soak right through. If your shot is not good on time etc, adjust your grind only.try and tamp in exactly the same way. Do not use bottomless and if you have a pf with a single spout, use it as it will hide any tamping or distribuition issues. You can work on those once you have the other bits levelled.


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## 4085

I pulled this shot just now. First one of the day. No practicising so it will have rough edges, but the main thing is, weigh in the beans, grind, tamp to the same level each time, then as long as you are not switching beans the only variable is the grind


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> Do not use bottomless and if you have a pf with a single spout, use it as it will hide any tamping or distribuition issues. You can work on those once you have the other bits levelled.


Enjoyed the YouTube clip, David. Why do you recommend not using the naked portafilter? I'll try filming a shot this morning to compare notes.


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## bubbajvegas

Man I wish I'd gone for the mythos that was on eBay.damn it looks good


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## 4085

Hi Patrick,

If you use a naked, then you have the additional problem of distribution and channeling to sort out at the same time. Use a single. Get your grind right then put on your naked and sort the rest out !


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## 4085

Here is part two. All I am trying to do is vary the grind slightly to lengthen the shot. It is not perfect but getting there!






Sent from my iPhone


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## 4085

Here is part 3, and thank fully, the last I hear you say! I have used the same beans, same weight, same tamp pressure. The only variant is the grind. Over the three shots I have been going slightly coarser each time. on the Muthos, we are talking about making adjustments to the wheel of 1 mm at a time! I managed to hit around 27 seconds for a double shot, but I think I am going to slightly make it finer, to go more for a ristretto double. there are some really good glasses on

http://www.coffeehit.co.uk/coffee-hit-espresso-shot-glass/p238

they are lined for single and double espresso and ristretto and really give you something to aim for!


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## mitussis

Hello All

It's been nice to follow along everyone's learning / experimenting.

I grew up with very bitter espresso made by Italian immigrants that we drank with sugar, so I've been experimenting with lighter roasts, bigger doses and developing an appreciation for those fruity notes I read about, but never really tasted.

I'm quite happy with big doses (using 17g and 22g baskets), infuse until the first drip (often a minute or more) and extract. To experiment, it is very interesting to use two glasses and swap them part way through the extraction (first 15 seconds in first glass, second 15 seconds into the second). You'll be amazed at how much the flavours change during the shot.

Steaming is great (though not with the kind of fruity / sour shots the above produces). With darker roasts / longer extraction, great flat whites should be a cinch.

Cheers


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## iroko

Thanks for the video clips.

I only make 1 or 2 cups sat and sun so more practice is needed, and I roast medium/medium dark depending if I start the cool down process quick enough on the

roaster.

I've finally got the hang of the 4 hole tip, but again more practice needed for good microfoam for latte art.


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## The Systemic Kid

Here's a clip of the LI shot in moody black and white. Used a naked portafilter to check on extraction which seems pretty OK. Shot time for just short of 2 oz was around 27 secs. Dose, as seen on clip, was 15.8 grm as recommended for the LI.


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## sjenner

dfk41 said:


> Hi Patrick,
> 
> If you use a naked, then you have the additional problem of distribution and channeling to sort out at the same time. Use a single. Get your grind right then put on your naked and sort the rest out !


I am not an expert dfk41 but surely whether one is using a "naked" portafilter or a spouted one is irrelevant?

Just my own thought, but if the coffee is badly distributed, unevenly tamped, not level or left with weak/hollow areas, it will channel or run too slowly/fast or if on an un-level bed, sour(?)...

And wouldn't you acquire a "single" by collecting just one side of a double spouted portafilter? Wouldn't that be different from a ristretto?

I'm confused.


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## 4085

With a few of us on here being nearer entry level with lever machines, my point was that using a single spout was one less thing to worry about, when trying to get the best from your machine. If you distribute unevenly, clump etc etc then of course your shot will not be good. I was merely suggesting to remove the naked from the scene until you started achieving consistent results, as a lot of experienced people initially struggle when switching to a naked.

For me I was experiencing both a new grinder and espresso machine and that's a lot to take on board!


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## coffeechap

sjenner said:


> I am not an expert dfk41 but surely whether one is using a "naked" portafilter or a spouted one is irrelevant?
> 
> Just my own thought, but if the coffee is badly distributed, unevenly tamped, not level or left with weak/hollow areas, it will channel or run too slowly/fast or if on an un-level bed, sour(?)...
> 
> And wouldn't you acquire a "single" by collecting just one side of a double spouted portafilter? Wouldn't that be different from a ristretto?
> 
> I'm confused.


Of course you can achieve a single from one side of a double spout, but if you want to only pours a single just use the single basket, extraction time should be the same as for a double. A ristretto is a short pull, so you stop the extraction which with the lever means just removing the espresso cup from the pour about half way through, that way you will only be drinking the first half of the shot which will have a deeper flavour.

Agreed the use of a naked will make no difference to the shot if you have done everything correct, the only difference is that when you don't quite get it right the spout protects you from the spraying caused by a naked filter, however the use of a naked portafilter is fabulous for observing the shot and seeing the blonding at the end.


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## coffeechap

The Systemic Kid said:


> Here's a clip of the LI shot in moody black and white. Used a naked portafilter to check on extraction which seems pretty OK. Shot time for just short of 2 oz was around 27 secs. Dose, as seen on clip, was 15.8 grm as recommended for the LI.


Watching the video do you think you should go a touch finer on the grinds as the pre infusion is penetrating the puck very quickly?


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## coffeechap

Please forgive me for jumping in n the L1 thread at least my group is the same!!


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## CoffeeDoc

What made you choose the Bosco?


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## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> Watching the video do you think you should go a touch finer on the grinds as the pre infusion is penetrating the puck very quickly?


Yes, I think I will try a little finer grind but then the extraction time was in the ball park. We are talking very fine adjustments here which is great fun if not a little challenging. It's great to have a machine that can respond to such fine adjustments.

On another tack, where did you get your Bosco from? It's a beautifully crafted machine.


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## sjenner

The Systemic Kid said:


> Yes, I think I will try a little finer grind but then the extraction time was in the ball park. We are talking very fine adjustments here which is great fun if not a little challenging. It's great to have a machine that can respond to such fine adjustments.
> 
> On another tack, where did you get your Bosco from? It's a beautifully crafted machine.


Of course the most beautiful part of a Bosco, is the group







...

Now where else have I seen it being used?


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## 4085

I think, and hope, that we can all learn from each others experiences. I am experimenting every day with my L1. My main aim at the moment, is to produce a shot within the timescale, that looks correct and tastes correct, and I a achieving that consistently. The next move will be to go to a naked pf which will help me adjust distribution and tamp, in case I am not getting those right!


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## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> I think, and hope, that we can all learn from each others experiences. I am experimenting every day with my L1. My main aim at the moment, is to produce a shot within the timescale, that looks correct and tastes correct, and I a achieving that consistently. The next move will be to go to a naked pf which will help me adjust distribution and tamp, in case I am not getting those right!


Amen to that, David. The LI is such a capable machine, getting the best out of it is bound to be an ongoing challenge. Can recommend the naked portafilter - so useful to see what's going on. Almost mesmerising to watch too!


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## The Systemic Kid

sjenner said:


> Of course the most beautiful part of a Bosco, is the group
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ...
> 
> Now where else have I seen it being used?


I was pleased my LI shipped with the top half of the group requiring assembly allowing a peek at the piston, seals and springs. I was surprised how heavy it was and how beautifully put together. Know I made the right choice for me - definitely no niggling what ifs or regrets.


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## coffeechap

Chose the bosco as the l1 was not available at the time, in fact this ids the bosco that reiss at londinium used to do his research for the L1s so is in good company, I supposed the biggest difference is whats behind the group, 6 litre boiler beautifully put together, and it has a steam activated cup warmer on top, it also drowns the l1 in shear size terms. I love using it and have not found another machine that will replace it other than the KVDW idrocompressor (same group though).


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## The Systemic Kid

coffeechap said:


> This is the bosco that reiss at londinium used to do his research for the L1s so is in good company, I supposed the biggest difference is whats behind the group, 6 litre boiler beautifully put together, and it has a steam activated cup warmer on top, it also drowns the l1 in shear size terms. I love using it and have not found another machine that will replace it other than the KVDW idrocompressor (same group though).


6ltr boiler! You got a bargain from Reiss via Ebay. I was tempted but had nowhere to put it - good job the Londinium is smaller.


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## MarkyP

oh my - that is big!

[is it me, or is there a strange smell of deja vue!]


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## AndyS

Somewhere on one of the online forums there was a posting (with pictures) that explained in detail the piping and water flow to and from the Londinium group. Can anyone tell me where that was? I can't seem to find it.

Thank you,


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## RoloD

AndyS said:


> Somewhere on one of the online forums there was a posting (with pictures) that explained in detail the piping and water flow to and from the Londinium group. Can anyone tell me where that was? I can't seem to find it.


 Have a look here, Andy (scroll down the page) http://www.home-barista.com/levers/londinium-videos-photos-by-owners-t24207-90.html


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## The Systemic Kid

AndyS said:


> Somewhere on one of the online forums there was a posting (with pictures) that explained in detail the piping and water flow to and from the Londinium group. Can anyone tell me where that was? I can't seem to find it. Thank you,


Andy, here's a sketch showing the pipework design for the LI and how the thermosyphon works.

View attachment 2225


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## AndyS

The Systemic Kid said:


> Andy, here's a sketch showing the pipework design for the LI and how the thermosyphon works.


Thank you. That drawing is good, but the post I am looking for had actual photos plus a more detailed explanation of the water flow during idle and also while pulling a shot.


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## shrink

is it just me or does that sketch not look a standard heat exchanger?

it seems to be getting brew water for the HX from the boiler?

from what i can tell.. Londinium have re-engineered the heat exchange system from how it exists in my cherub. Not quite sure how it works, but they seem to want hotter water coming from the boiler to help stabilise the larger group.

in the cherub, there are seperate cold water feeds for the boiler and the heat exchanger. IN this drawing, heat exchanger seems to be getting fed from the bottom of the boiler.


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## RoloD

AndyS said:


> Thank you. That drawing is good, but the post I am looking for had actual photos plus a more detailed explanation of the water flow during idle and also while pulling a shot.


That's what I sent you in the previous post, I believe # 34 - or was it another set of photos you were thinking of?


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## RoloD

shrink said:


> is it just me or does that sketch not look a standard heat exchanger?


 No, strictly speaking it is not a heat exchanger - it is an open thermosiphon. Since both are a basically a series of copper pipes they look similar but the function is different.

As I understand it, in a HX system the brew water passes through a pipe within the boiler - the water in this pipe does not have direct contact with the water in the boiler (although the water in the boiler does provide the steam).

In the thermosiphon the water circulates though the group one way or another to maintain temperature (basically working on a hot water rises/cold water sinks principle). The mass of the group acts as a radiator cooling the water to brew temperature, the thermosiphon works continuously to stabiliise it.

Some HX designs incorporate thermosiphons but the Londinium is not one of them.


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## AndyS

RoloD said:


> That's what I sent you in the previous post, I believe # 34 - or was it another set of photos you were thinking of?


Now I see it. Thanks, RoloD, that's exactly what I was looking for!


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## iroko

Hi all,

After a couple of weeks of duff shots, I had some fantastic cappuccino's over the weekend.

I even managed some dodgy latte art for the first time on the L I.


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## shrink

good work







what steam tip do you use?


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## bubbajvegas

Looks like quality micro foaming ?


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## iroko

shrink said:


> good work
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> what steam tip do you use?


4 hole 1mm, It's took a long time to get used to steaming with this machine, but it looks I'm getting there.


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## RoloD

shrink said:


> is it just me or does that sketch not look a standard heat exchanger?
> 
> it seems to be getting brew water for the HX from the boiler?


 OK correction to my previous post, Reiss is now calling it a heat exchanger (he didn't before, or rather in a previosu post on his blog he was distinguishing it from a conventional HX design). I quote from him:

L1 very much does have a heat exchanger, L1 very much does have a thermosiphon.

More traditional designs are known as closed thermosiphons, referring to the fact that the thermosiphon is replenished from a fresh cold water injection feed, rather than from the boiler... With the L1 the thermosiphon is being replenished from the boiler. For this reason it is referred to as an open thermosiphon. This coupled with the small volume of the boiler, ensures the turnover of the water in the boiler is very frequent. As a result there is no issue with taint - colour or taste.

While the thermosiphon is being replenished from the boiler (you can actually see the fine copper trombone pipe on the left hand side of the boiler that takes the water from the boiler into the HX, from which it flows to the TS) you don't get over-heating issues, for a number of reasons, but primarily because every time you pull a shot and some boiler temp water is drawn into the TS in the opposite direction, thus disrupting the TS.

As soon as the TS is disrupted the group cools rapidly, nicely offset by the increase in temp from the water drawn in from the boiler. Also bear in mind that the water drawn in from the boiler is a relatively small volume of water as a percentage of the total volume of water in the HX-TS circuit.


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## sctsprin

Hi All,

I have an L1 and HG1 and am struggling a bit getting a nice level distribution in the basket (both L1 standard double, and VST 15g)

I use the Blind Tumbler on the HG1 and stir the grounds with a shish kebab stick, lift out the middle stopper and then stir again, then remove the tumbler.

I am finding with 15.8g of beans that the grinds are quite a bit lower than the top of the basket and uneven, so you cant wipe them flat, like i could on my older machines basket.

so it's quite difficult to then flatten the beans for a good even tamp.

I get reasonable extractions with the naked handle, but the start is a bit uneven and the pour does wander a bit.

Any suggestions?

I also get a hard ring imprint in the top of the grinds after extraction, caused by the metal surround of the group filter

cheers

james


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## The Systemic Kid

sctsprin said:


> Hi All, I have an L1 and HG1 and am struggling a bit getting a nice level distribution in the basket (both L1 standard double, and VST 15g)
> 
> I use the Blind Tumbler on the HG1 and stir the grounds with a shish kebab stick, lift out the middle stopper and then stir again, then remove the tumbler.
> 
> I am finding with 15.8g of beans that the grinds are quite a bit lower than the top of the basket and uneven, so you cant wipe them flat, like i could on my older machines basket.


Hello James - welcome to Coffeeforum. Used to use a toothpick to distribute the grinds in the blind tumbler but found this alternative method works fine. As you lift the spigot twist it, it will rotate the grinds as they fall into the portafilter - simple! I just sweep the cone round a bit to distribute it out towards the periphery and then tamp. Would recommend using an oversize tamp (58.35mm) - fits the VST perfectly and eliminates the need to re-tamp grinds nearer the periphery.



> I get reasonable extractions with the naked handle, but the start is a bit uneven and the pour does wander a bit. Any suggestions?


Are you tamping quite hard? With a VST, you are grinding finer due to it letting water through more quickly so over-tamping can be problematic - and definitely don't apply any real pressure if and when twisting to smooth off the puck prior to inserting into the portafilter.



> I also get a hard ring imprint in the top of the grinds after extraction, caused by the metal surround of the group filter james


Do you mean from the shower screen here? Capacity of the 15grm VST is good for plus or minus one gram, so overfilling it shouldn't be a problem at 15.8grm.


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## sjenner

I was watching a video from HG: "Paul Grinds 2" http://hg-one.com/portfolio-items/paul-grinds-2/ and I noticed the mini balloon whisk that he uses, so I have acquired a similar one. Until this, I was using a wooden kebab stick (overgrown cocktail stick) and some of my pucks left a little to be desired.

Grind distribution seems to be much more effective if a fairly good stir/spin is applied in the blind basket before releasing the pin and dosing the basket. Until then I was doing OK with the L1 stock basket, but having some issues with my two VST jobbies (15g & 18g), from which I was getting too many channelling episodes and sink shots (or rather... "that was awful" shots!).


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## vikingboy

Loving my HG-One too Stephen, grind quality is awesome and really helps bring out the tastes of the idfferent coffees I'm using.

Can you tell me where you picked up your mini-whisk from as I agree, if you dont stir the grinds you can see halo/doughnut extractions from thr area around the centre.

thanks in adv

Ian


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## sctsprin

Hi Guys, thanks for the input

I tried spinning the spigot with no luck, so i've gone back to the whisk or shish kebab method and it's working okay, but i add in the twirl as well

I was tamping hard, so have now gone to a very light tamp, and reduced the grind by 40 degrees rotation, to get about the same result

I have a 58.39mm tamper with flat polished face

yeah the shower screen and perimeter are leaving a hard indent in the fresh puck as well as the wet puck, i've reduced to 15g dose and the imprint is reduced, and have just tried 15g in an 18g VST and dont get the issue, so might keep trying with that

cheers

james


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## sjenner

vikingboy said:


> Loving my HG-One too Stephen, grind quality is awesome and really helps bring out the tastes of the idfferent coffees I'm using.
> 
> Can you tell me where you picked up your mini-whisk from as I agree, if you dont stir the grinds you can see halo/doughnut extractions from thr area around the centre.
> 
> thanks in adv
> 
> Ian


Hi Ian, I've only just seen this...

Londinium have a good supply of those whisks, but I have no idea how much they are...

So you will need to drop a mail to Reiss at Londinium.

Have you tried a cook shop locally?


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## The Systemic Kid

WDF - German kitchen utensils. They do one - costs around £8.00. Got mine at House of Fraser.


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## bubbajvegas

Are you guys talking bout this type of whisk

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=220619078477


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## sjenner

bubbajvegas said:


> Are you guys talking bout this type of whisk
> 
> http://item.mobileweb.ebay.co.uk/viewitem?itemId=220619078477


Yep... Well I am anyway.


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## 4085

I have seen a few videos where the insert surgical needles into a champagne cork, allowing you to choose the pattern, if you so wish!


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## The Systemic Kid

Found this at Cream Supplies. Definitely a mini whisk at 15cm long.

http://www.creamsupplies.co.uk/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=2343


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## sctsprin

Has anyone plumbed in there drip-tray?

I was thinking this kit might work: http://www.chriscoffee.com/Drain_Kit_Vetrano_p/vdrkt.htm

otherwise making a cup to bolt under one of the large rectangular holes in the chassis, with a hose connected to the cup, and drilling a hole in the drip tray above the rectangular hole. a bit like these kits: https://www.chriscoffee.com/Drain_Kit_Vivaldi_p/viidk.htm

thoughts?

thanks

james


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## Viernes

Hello,

I'm wondering, how to brew beans with different roast degrees with a lever machine? I mean, used to a DB machine where you can set the temp to get an optimal extraction of a bean... How do you do this with the L1? For example, I'd like to pull some shots of Izzo coffee (very dark) in the morning and some shots of Squaremile in the evening... Is it possible?


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## RoloD

Viernes said:


> I'm wondering, how to brew beans with different roast degrees with a lever machine? I mean, used to a DB machine where you can set the temp to get an optimal extraction of a bean... How do you do this with the L1? For example, I'd like to pull some shots of Izzo coffee (very dark) in the morning and some shots of Squaremile in the evening... Is it possible?


Basically, no. If you really like to play around with temperature you are better off with a dual boiler PID machine.

But what you find with the L1 is that it gets the best out of beans and it is very forgiving. You may find some beans just don't suit it, but generally speaking, the inherent temperature profiling of a commercial lever group just gets very good results out of almost everything you put through it (although I have to admit I've never actually tried Square Mile beans through it). You can adjust the pressurestat but you certainly wouldn't want to do that to adjust for different beans. You still have a few variables to play with - dose and grind (obviously) and pre-infusion time, and most lever users seem content with that.


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## The Systemic Kid

Hi Viernes - changing beans on the Londinium is no problem - going from a medium plus roast to a medium one like Square Mile's offerings. I have some SM Honduran Las Flores Catui and Ethiopian Yrgacheffe but I don't enjoy them through the lever which is better suited, IMO, to medium plus roasts. I am also using some Hasbean beans blended for espresso by a local coffee shop - again, not to my personal taste. My stock favourites are, not surprisingly, Reiss's offerings. The Londinium really sings with them - a taste revelation. Have found Union coffee's revelation blend pretty suited to the Londinium - their roast is medium plus.


----------



## Viernes

Thank you both.









Seems that levers works well with medium roasts, but not so with light or dark roasts. This is a real problem for me, as I like classic neapolitan roasts and 3rd wave roasts







I don't want that the machine impose the limits and be forced to only chose certain kind of coffees.

However, there is something that I don't understand. I remember to drink some SqM espresso at Prufrock pulled on a Victoria Arduino lever machine which it tasted fantastic. In fact, it tasted better than other places which used the same blend but with Synessos.... How can it be?


----------



## RoloD

Viernes said:


> Seems that levers works well with medium roasts, but not so with light or dark roasts. This is a real problem for me, as I like classic neapolitan roasts and 3rd wave roasts
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I don't want that the machine impose the limits and be forced to only chose certain kind of coffees.


 This is not true. You can certainly use dark roasts in a lever. The one place in the world where lever machines are standard is Naples which is famous for its dark roasts. And one bean Systematic Kid enjoys in his LI he describes as 'medium plus' - Union Revelation - I would describe (as Union themselves do) as 'extra dark'.

My suggestion would be to try out a commercial lever machine - you might well find almost all the beans you put through it taste better than from a DB machine, only some seem to work with the machine better than others. So I would say rather than 'imposing limits', a lever machine will widen the range of beans you enjoy.

This, of course, is an entirely biased point of view from an LI owner. You really have to find out for yourself.


----------



## 4085

You will find an L1 extracts a totally different range of flavours from whatever bean you put through it compared to a pump machine. This is more seen in darker roasts as there seem to be more things that make up the taste...even lighter roasted beans will taste different


----------



## RoloD

..yes, if a bean is over-roasted, you will really notice it on the LI. If it's roasted well, it will bring out a fuller range of flavours. It reveals more of what's there.


----------



## 4085

I am hoping that someone will be taking their tanked L1 to the Forum day so that those who are inclined, can have a demonstration......are you going Patrick?


----------



## Glenn

I will need to clear this with Claudette before anyone starts making plans to bring their L1 along

This is not a product they sell and I would not like any conflict with machines

I am looking into a Pump vs Lever machine meeting but have not yet tied down a venue or date, although there are several interested hosts


----------



## The Systemic Kid

dfk41 said:


> I am hoping that someone will be taking their tanked L1 to the Forum day so that those who are inclined, can have a demonstration......are you going Patrick?


Yes I am going to the BB day but there's no way I'm lugging 32kg of LI to Northampton!


----------



## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Yes I am going to the BB day but there's no way I'm lugging 32kg of LI to Northampton!


Strap it to your back........


----------



## Charliej

Dave (CoffeeChap) said he was arranging for an L1 to be there when I spoke to him the other week


----------



## Glenn

I will update on Tuesday whether this will be possible

It might not be the right place to have these machines for comparative purposes and might take the focus off the sensory experiences I am planning

However, if this is possible then I will fully support this as well


----------



## Viernes

Can you use a 21+ g VST basket on a londinium SPOUTED pf?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Viernes said:


> Can you use a 21+ g VST basket on a londinium SPOUTED pf?


Don't think so! Tried dosing at 18grm using Londinium beans (roast profile to suit levers) - tasted better at 16grm. Believe the thermosyphon instability issue was down to dosing at 22grm and preinfusing for 60secs or so which upset the thermosyphon.


----------



## Viernes

Anyone know what happened with the twin spring issue?

http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/6297570-londinium-i-twin-spring-development


----------



## Mrboots2u

Viernes said:


> Anyone know what happened with the twin spring issue?
> 
> http://londiniumespresso.com/blogs/londinium-espresso-blog/6297570-londinium-i-twin-spring-development


I may be wrong ( please other L1 owners let me know ) but this is now looking like it will be ready for the L3, as the info on there specifies you can ask for a dual spring mech if required in that one .


----------



## aaronb

Yeah I think Reiss decided against having it as an option on the L1 but you can have it on the L2 and L3 (on one or more of the groups).


----------



## Viernes

Hey, I think I still have not seen any good latte art done with the L1. You guys get good microfoam to do some latte art?


----------



## Mrboots2u

Viernes said:


> Hey, I think I still have not seen any good latte art done with the L1. You guys get good microfoam to do some latte art?


Yes we do get good foam, I am just crap at latte art . Next L1 question viernes.........
















And crap at foaming ....


----------



## coffeechap

Viernes said:


> Hey, I think I still have not seen any good latte art done with the L1. You guys get good microfoam to do some latte art?


Check put Callum's latte set done on his l1 it should answer your question


----------



## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> Check put Callum's latte set done on his l1 it should answer your question


Yep he puts most of us to shame , the bloody barista


----------



## Miami_AJ

Viernes said:


> Hey, I think I still have not seen any good latte art done with the L1. You guys get good microfoam to do some latte art?


I'm with you there. I'm able to get much better (denser) microfoam from my HX and my previous Breville 900XL. I have tried 4 tips, and just ordered a Motta pitcher hoping to improve this aspect.


----------



## coffeechap

What on earth are you guys doing, the 1mm 4 hole tip does perfect microfoam, need to look at technique guys


----------



## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> What on earth are you guys doing, the 1mm 4 hole tip does perfect microfoam, need to look at technique guys


Charming ....... Lets see your latte art Obi One........







I am still only at apprentice level remember


----------



## Viernes

Miami_AJ said:


> I'm with you there. I'm able to get much better (denser) microfoam from my HX and my previous Breville 900XL. I have tried 4 tips, and just ordered a Motta pitcher hoping to improve this aspect.


Strange. 2.4l boiler @ 1.2 bar should be more than enough to archieve good microfoam. Is the steam enough dry? Is the steam wand non-burn? The no-burn wands creates more water and affects the process, in my experience. I removed long time ago the teflon tube that is inside of the duetto steam wand.


----------



## 4085

I cannot do Latte art but I can do good microfoam, so lets agree the two are not connected, other than to say without one you cannot do the other.

Viernes, you need to come out of the closet, dump your Duetto and buy the L1 you so desire!


----------



## coffeechap

I had a no burn steam wand on the Bosco, still got perfect microfoam. The L1 has a standard wand with loads of power, perhaps it is too much for those used to less power. Once mastered it is a fab steam wand.


----------



## Viernes

dfk41 said:


> Viernes, you need to come out of the closet, dump your Duetto and buy the L1 you so desire!


I need to be sure! But I'm on it











coffeechap said:


> I had a no burn steam wand on the Bosco, still got perfect microfoam. The L1 has a standard wand with loads of power, perhaps it is too much for those used to less power. Once mastered it is a fab steam wand.


Any difference in the steam between the 6l boiler and the 2.4l ? The bosco boiler is giant!


----------



## coffeechap

Bosco has more power, but not much, all comes down to the percentage question I posted you?


----------



## glevum

nothing to do with the L1 but does any one know why the new Quickmill Verona comes supplied with a normal steam arm and a no burn steam arm? is there any difference in steaming? why would you want to attach a normal wand when it has a no burn all ready attached?


----------



## Glenn

Generally the no burn steam arms have less steaming power due to a smaller diameter as there is a 'removable' pipe in them. When removed it becomes a burn steam arm with more power.


----------



## coffeechap

That no steam on the Bosco is pretty powerful though


----------



## glevum

Ah....thanks Glenn


----------



## ziobeege_72

Have jumped on the LI bandwagon too after years with the Lusso. After a playing around for a couple of days I am finally nailing some pretty outstanding shots - but only with the stock double baskets (failed badly with the vst's). It has confirmed that I had been pretty much a one trick ristretto pony with the ponte vecchio - chocolately and syrupy with pretty much everything. With the LI I am getting a far greater range of taste spectrum. "Layered" I believe is the word.

And my word she's a big gorgeous thing too in comparison.


----------



## Viernes

Whats the problem with vst? Channeling? Spritzers?


----------



## ziobeege_72

Finding it hard to dial in. Shots always flow fast despite cranking my K10 to a much finer setting. Resultant shot is thin and under extracted. I suspect I need more patience. Stock baskets seem to be more forgiving and user friendly. I'll hang in there


----------



## coffeechap

Just keep going finer dude


----------



## ziobeege_72

Will do. Will get those k10 burrs even more close together. Is it generally accepted that you get a more layered/amplified shot with the vst vs the stock you reckon? Should it be quite noticeable assuming I hit the sweet spot?

Could be a coffee thing also I spose. Will keep at it.


----------



## Viernes

VST's are not always very friendly, I agree. Sometimes they push the grinders to its limits, needing more like a turquish grind than an espresso grind.


----------



## vikingboy

im at about 85-90 on a zero set K10 fresh with relatively new burrs. get to choking point and loosen off a few notches.


----------



## 4085

My K10 using Java Jampit is currently set to 77 with a very light tamp and I am about spot on with that. I switched away from stock baskets to VST a few weeks ago and I find them so much better. Currently dosing at about 16 gms in an 18 gm basket. I agree with Dave, grind finer and tamp lighter. Of course, depending on what bean you are using and how light/dark it is will change these parameters as well


----------



## MarkyP

It sounds very similar to the issues I was having... Tamp very lightly - just to level the grounds really.


----------



## ziobeege_72

Still can't get these b*****d vst's to work. 15g in the 15g, 14g in the 15, 16 in the 18. All shots seem to hit the shower screen. A good bag of LI Rodomunho gone. Arrrrghhhh! Watery results that lack mouthfeel despite a 30 sec lever travel return and 35 mls in the cup. Am tamping lightly - maybe what I think is light, isn't. Can I ask how long are you guys preinfusing and how 'long' is your shot in terms of time and shot size approx (are you aiming around standard 25-30g shot weight in 30 secs or more ristretto end). Are you using the double spout or single spout? Should I expect lower crema/body with the vst's? Thankfully the stock baskets are showcasing the LI.

Have ordered a few bags of rave to see if I can get more luck with a change of roaster.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Using 16grm in 18grm VST with Londinium beans. Find this better than same dose in 15grm VST - better clearance - had to tighten grind to allow for 18grm VST's different flow rate to the 15grm one. Pre-infuse for 4-6secs - 30-35grm output in 25-27secs. Don't bother about the crema - be guided by smell and taste. If you're getting tiger striping you're doing OK.


----------



## vikingboy

The Systemic Kid said:


> Using 16grm in 18grm VST with Londinium beans. Find this better than same dose in 15grm VST - better clearance - had to tighten grind to allow for 18grm VST's different flow rate to the 15grm one. Pre-infuse for 4-6secs - 30-35grm output in 25-27secs. Don't bother about the crema - be guided by smell and taste. If you're getting tiger striping you're doing OK.


Exactly same as my pulls. 15.4g Londinium Rodomunho in a 18g VST. 27s pull for 36g. 9.5%TDS measured. Tastes bloody amazing in a macchiato. The Rodomunho is one of my favourite coffee's so far.

Edit: 16g in an 18g shouldnt hit the shower screen either. Maybe you are tamping too light. I press firmly with fingers only making sure bed is level.

Keep going finer until you choke the machine and back off the grind from there. Maybe a video of your technique?


----------



## bronc

Isn't 36g too much output from 15.4g beans?


----------



## ziobeege_72

Thanks. Just off the phone with Reiss who saw my last SOS 'is there a doctor in the house' post and answered within seconds as only he could. He's pinned it to a sloppy grind distribution technique where I am not consistently mounding the coffee centrally. I'll focus on that over the next couple of days with the naked PF and see where that gets me.


----------



## garydyke1

VST's are designed for orthadox tamping with a prescribed dose-range. ie if you're trying to place 15g in a 15g basket then a 'light tamp barely more than a polish' wont compact the coffee enough to avoid hitting the screen, unless youre grinding mega mega fine. Try a max of 16 in an 18g VST


----------



## vikingboy

bronc said:


> Isn't 36g too much output from 15.4g beans?


yes







Probably better with circa 32/33g. I was steaming the milk though and let it run....still tasted blooming lovely though.


----------



## MarkyP

Do you feel the lever engage with the coffee with the VST's?

from the shower screen

That's my key to when the pour has gone south and is ready for some milk!

I only tamp enough to level the grounds with a little nutation and then a polish...

I'm timing my shots based on the first drips of espresso.


----------



## bronc

vikingboy said:


> yes
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Probably better with circa 32/33g. I was steaming the milk though and let it run....still tasted blooming lovely though.


It still seems a bit too much though. Most people here recommend a brew ratio of 1.6 which is around 25g output. I'm not saying this to tell you that you're wrong but I'm just wondering what is the right one.


----------



## Mrboots2u

bronc said:


> It still seems a bit too much though. Most people here recommend a brew ratio of 1.6 which is around 25g output. I'm not saying this to tell you that you're wrong but I'm just wondering what is the right one.


Whichever tastes best to you !


----------



## vikingboy

25/32/36 all taste pretty much the same in a cup of frothy milk. I think the additional volume helps cut through the milk more than the weak tasting shot dreggs compromise it.

As straight espresso you are probably right though and my palette is still uneducated too.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Since Saturday and watching the lever legend at work, I have been pulling " mid range double ristretto" dumping the first few seconds and removing the cup after 15-17 seconds ish. Volume and weight wise I wouldn't have in idea what range it is in. Taste wise sweet and delicious . Of course this won't work with all beans to the same effect as some are sweeter or more acidic than others. When I drink it with milk I do this shot with a small amount of milk probably an oversized piccolo at 3.5 - 4 ounces.


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Think you need to start thinking about upgrading your lever apprentice handle!!







Now, what to - that's the question??


----------



## drude

Like Mrboots I've been pulling mid range double ristrettos, although grabbing a little more than 15-17 secs. Fantastic stuff - much better than the shots I made before the forum day.


----------



## Mrboots2u

The Systemic Kid said:


> Think you need to start thinking about upgrading your lever apprentice handle!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now, what to - that's the question??


Not yet long way to go yet, whenever I talk to you guys I learn a little bit more though ! And not changing it to Patricks bitch


----------



## bronc

Can you define mid range double ristrettos, please


----------



## coffeechap

yes certainly

it is a midpoint sweet shot..

basically you are removing the beginning and end of the shot and leaving a much sweeter component from the centre of the extraction, this is particularly relevant on reduced pressure profile machines such as the L1.

start the extraction and your timer, without a cup under the spout of the portafilter. Insert cup into the shot pour after about 4 seconds then leave within the pour for between 18 and 20 seconds then remove the cup, then savour the sweet little mid point ristretto


----------



## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> yes certainly
> 
> it is a midpoint sweet shot..
> 
> basically you are removing the beginning and end of the shot and leaving a much sweeter component from the centre of the extraction, this is particularly relevant on reduced pressure profile machines such as the L1.
> 
> start the extraction and your timer, without a cup under the spout of the portafilter. Insert cup into the shot pour after about 4 seconds then leave within the pour for between 18 and 20 seconds then remove the cup, then savour the sweet little mid point ristretto


What he said ......


----------



## urbanbumpkin

If I had a lever I'd be pulling them too.







They were particularly good!

Thanks again Dave for advice and for the tamping master class.

I'll have to settle for a go at the mid point ristrettos on the Classic.


----------



## garydyke1

Ah the old 'centre cut'


----------



## urbanbumpkin

garydyke1 said:


> Ah the old 'centre cut'


How very dare you! Or was that aimed at Coffee Chap


----------



## garydyke1

urbanbumpkin said:


> How very dare you! Or was that aimed at Coffee Chap


Centre cut = omitting the start and end of espresso shot

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free


----------



## ziobeege_72

Well after 20+ shots and two hours with a naked PF, scales, timer, bags of Londinium Honduran, you name it I finally managed to nail an 18g vst. Hordy Lord what a pain in the culo that was. And my definition of 'nail' was when I could get a single stream forming from a cone using 18g in the 18 basket hitting 25g liquid in 30 secs.. I know I know it is all about the taste but I needed to work with something a bit more objective. Plus I bought a naked PF so I mayaswell use the ruddy thing as a diagnostic tool.

I also tried doses from 16 to 20g in the 18 vst, but settled on 18g in the end as my target based on the ambitious assumption that they are precision baskets designed specifically for 18g. Tamping was very light with a twist polish.

To my embarrassment and annoyance I could only achieve this with a WDT despite having a K10 Fresh! What a punch in the goonies. Admittedly the taste achieved was nothing like I'd ever hit with the ponte vecchio. Not even close. Not even in the same post code such was the difference in flavour distinction and intensity.

I then went back to the stock doubles and see if I could hit the sweet spot with that. With a slight loosening of the grind, 15.5g dosage and no WDT I nailed it first go and the taste was up there with the vst. I couldn't say it was better but nor was it obviously less pleasant. A little more mellow perhaps but again a huge step up on the Lusso. I repeated it another 2 times without drama. Bingo. Angels sang.

So after all that I think I am going to stick the vst's away, bury the naked PF somewhere where it doesn't shine very often and just use the user friendly stock doubles with either the 1 or 2 PF. Much less effort which still gives me a great shot far far more consistently. And I guess that is what it is all about. Amen brothers.


----------



## coffeechap

i am using your same set up, might be worth coming down and having a chin wag, as i get fab results out of both my 15 and 18 vst, plus you can stroke the caravel.....


----------



## ziobeege_72

You are a gentleman coffeechap. Let's tee something up. Dont get me wrong I got great results from the vst too but it is far too finicky for my crappy technique to handle consistently - at least to get it to a lovely extraction at an eye level.

Don't be surprised if the caravel starts pining after me.


----------



## Viernes

coffeechap said:


> i am using your same set up, might be worth coming down and having a chin wag, as i get fab results out of both my 15 and 18 vst, plus you can stroke the caravel.....


So if ziobeege uses 15.5g with the 18g VST... What dose do you use with the 15 VST???


----------



## ziobeege_72

Viernes said:


> So if ziobeege uses 15.5g with the 18g VST... What dose do you use with the 15 VST???


To be clear I used 15.5 in the stock double and not the vst and got a great shot. I got a great shot with 18g in the 18 vst as well - but found it far more finicky to achieve consistently well. And i can't tell a significant enough difference between the two in taste. Personally I have found the vsts not worth the extra hassle - although will admit the stock baskets are a killer on the fingernails. I guess I have to man up a little more...


----------



## coffeechap

i personally find that underdosing the VST with the L1 is the best way to go, so in a 15 gram VST i dose to 14g and follow 1.6 brew ratios, with an 18 gram VST i dose at 16.5 grams, I dont level dose or up dose the VSTs on the L1. With correct distribution and tamp technique I get great extractions from the VST, I also get great extractions from the stock baskets as well, i just find them a pain in the arse to remove from the portafilter.


----------



## 4085

I agree Ziobege, that the best shots seem to be under dosing the 18 gm VST......I have no idea why and will leave that to the more svcientific! Glad we also agree about naked pfs.....I hate them with avengeance! I use the single spout and get a beautiful pour every time!

And of course, I grind fine and tamp light!


----------



## Mrboots2u

Currently using the stock basket to practice the distribution and tamp on,plus I have two the same so making a batch of drinks it easy and quick I fill tamp both and swamp them in and out of the portafilter ( I currently have removed the springs ) . Using a naked PF to see what happens ( sorry dfk ! ) . Also I needs fricking vice to swap over the single spout on the other portafiler ( patrick to the rescue ).

Dosing at 16 g . The biggest thing for me was watching the tamp pressure at the grind off , my nutating technique was surpassingly close to accurate . Getting good pours for me . Tasting really nice . Am going to move on to the vst later on though and experiment, doses etc.

Other part is that I amusing different roasters a lot , getting a taste for what is out there ( uncle funka currently) . Keeping the dose and the baskets easy is helping me with consistency while I evaluate what I like .


----------



## ziobeege_72

It's interesting to see general success with lower doses on the vst baskets rather than the specific designed doses. You'd think that a precision design basket with all the R&D in the world behind it would work most optimally with the stated dose. I know we are not talking traditional tamping techniques and lever pressure profiles but light tamping and lever styled pressure profiles on high end pumps is pretty much 3rd wave standard. Just goes to show you can't take anything absolute in the espresso world.

Not a biggie. Just a little musing I spose.


----------



## 4085

Ziobege, if you have a look at this link, in case you have not seen it. Andys gives a very useful explanation on VST baskets and his experience with an L1

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?11434-Coffeesnobs/page12&highlight=andys


----------



## MarkyP

Funnily enough I've been dosing 16 - 17g into the 18g VST recently with Rave Fudge and the taste was just getting lost. 'Strong coffee' is how the wife described it...

I jumped down to 14.8 in the 15g VST this morning and got my (unfortunately very) familiar gusher. I'll try and reduce the dose to see if I can crack the 15g VST now!

I then immediately swapped to the standard basket with the same dose and got a cracking shot.

I guess I'm learning for myself what the more experienced lever people have been telling me - dose less, grind finer, tamp lighter...


----------



## The Systemic Kid

ziobeege_72 said:


> Not a biggie. Just a little musing I spose.


Rationale behind the VST/LM collaboration was to produce baskets that were certifiably machined to exacting standards to guarantee consistency of flow. I believe the capacity tolerance for VST/LM baskets is supposed to be plus or minus one gram for the stated size. But that's not the only variable in the equation. There is no way the manufacturer can predict the myriad of combinations - beans, type of grinder, quality of grind, degree of tamp etc. In the end, it comes down to the individual user's set up and preferences. In my experience, updosing a 15grm VST by one gram doesn't provide sufficient clearance on my set up so I've begun using the 18grm and tightening the grind to allow for the underdose - works for me!


----------



## ziobeege_72

The Systemic Kid said:


> Rationale behind the VST/LM collaboration was to produce baskets that were certifiably machined to exacting standards to guarantee consistency of flow. I believe the capacity tolerance for VST/LM baskets is supposed to be plus or minus one gram for the stated size. But that's not the only variable in the equation. There is no way the manufacturer can predict the myriad of combinations - beans, type of grinder, quality of grind, degree of tamp etc. In the end, it comes down to the individual user's set up and preferences. In my experience, updosing a 15grm VST by one gram doesn't provide sufficient clearance on my set up so I've begun using the 18grm and tightening the grind to allow for the underdose - works for me!


Thanks for this. The intriguing thing is that here - at least on the LI thread - it is all one way I think. Ie down dosing by 1 or 2 of grams to make the vst's work. Just would have expected more variability. Anyway, I am still sticking to my stock baskets!


----------



## The Systemic Kid

With levers such as LI, less is definitely more. It can really unpack the taste profile of a bean when dialled in properly. Updosing just compresses the flavours making it hard if not impossible to taste them individually.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ok so using a stock basket I dose around 15.8 ish. Light as a feather tamp, still below the ridge line. So under dosed . I've seen people use 17 g in the stock. So what do people see the stock basket dose as ?


----------



## ziobeege_72

15.5g for me in stock double.

The other thing with vst's (I will stop talking about it one day) is that they were supposed to be an antidote to big doses that would under extract due to the requirement to grind coarser. Leveristas - being a sensible bunch tend not to dose up to the same extent and hence, the benefits of a vst basket is much less clear.

Apart from its ridgeless feature i think I have reached the conclusion that it is more hype than anything and perhaps of less benefit to your typical lever user. That fair?

I am probably just saying this to make myself feel better.


----------



## MarkyP

ziobeege_72 said:


> 15.5g for me in stock double.
> 
> The other thing with vst's (I will stop talking about it one day) is that they were supposed to be an antidote to big doses that would under extract due to the requirement to grind coarser. Leveristas - being a sensible bunch tend not to dose up to the same extent and hence, the benefits of a vst basket is much less clear.
> 
> Apart from its ridgeless feature i think I have reached the conclusion that it is more hype than anything and perhaps of less benefit to your typical lever user. That fair?
> 
> I am probably just saying this to make myself feel better.


Isn't the MSP of the VST, that they are consistent from basket to basket of the same size but also produce the same flow rate across the different sizes with equivalent doses?


----------



## The Systemic Kid

MarkyP said:


> Isn't the MSP of the VST, that they are consistent from basket to basket of the same size but also produce the same flow rate across the different sizes with equivalent doses?


Agree with that.


----------



## ziobeege_72

MarkyP said:


> Isn't the MSP of the VST, that they are consistent from basket to basket of the same size but also produce the same flow rate across the different sizes with equivalent doses?


Your single stock basket will also produce the same flow rate with the same grind as the stock double at the lower dose. That is what the increased tapering achieves on a single basket versus the double. I can't see how this is unique to vst's?

I am not knocking the vst's. Am just saying that for levers and lower doses the benefits are perhaps less. It's not essential kit.


----------



## MarkyP

I think we're violently agreeing!


----------



## Viernes

I'm becoming pretty nervous with all the VST problems you are having...


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Viernes said:


> I'm becoming pretty nervous with all the VST problems you are having...


......er, what problem(s)


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## coffeechap

Can I categorically state for the record I am not having any problems with my VST baskets......


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## Mrboots2u

Viernes said:


> I'm becoming pretty nervous with all the VST problems you are having...


Oh viernes , don't worry. Have you ordered one yet ?


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## MarkyP

I can also categorically state that all of the problems that I have been having have been down to user error and not the equipment!


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## drude

I've never used the stock baskets, only VST. I didn't see the point of trying the stock as I'd have to get the scales out again - got my grinder dosing 16.5ish into 18g VST with lovely results.


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## Mrboots2u

Doesn't matter for me , I'm using pre ground Lavazza , tastes the same in a VST or a stock .........


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## ziobeege_72

Please dont be nervous that I can't get the vst's to work easily. The problem I know is with me. I am good at recognising my own faults. My wife helps me.

Hopefully there is general recognition that the stock baskets are easier to use and they are not half bad - except for the fingernail torture rip. It is less important to me that I can't use the vst's consistently (ok it is slightly embarrassing) but more useful to discern that I couldn't tell the difference between the two when I did get to nail both. I don't know about others but I got the vst's because, well, others had done. Maybe others don't have to - although if you are going to drop a couple of thousand on gear a couple of filter baskets isn't going to break you.

The idea of removing the PF spring is an ingenius one, although I do like to bang out the puck and not have filter basket flying to all parts. I like to thwack hard.


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## coffeechap

Dude I need to get to yours and get to grips with tamping and vst baskets


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## drude

Mrboots2u said:


> Doesn't matter for me , I'm using pre ground Lavazza , tastes the same in a VST or a stock .........


I find Nescafe instant works best in my VST, but not that premium Gold Blend stuff - too premium for me and my L1


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## Mrboots2u

drude said:


> I find Nescafe instant works best in my VST, but not that premium Gold Blend stuff - too premium for me and my L1


The hot water talks good for pot noodles too.........


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## drude

I find you can fit 4 packs of super noodles in the drip tray, then just top em off from the water spout and wait 4 mins. Delicious...


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## urbanbumpkin

drude said:


> I find you can fit 4 packs of super noodles in the drip tray, then just top em off from the water spout and wait 4 mins. Delicious...


Try popping the sachet of sauce in the portafilter too


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## MarkyP

Have I stumbled into the same thread?

lavazza, nescafe, super noodles - what next!


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## ziobeege_72

coffeechap said:


> Dude I need to get to yours and get to grips with tamping and vst baskets


I need some help coffeechap. Am suffering the espresso equivalent of the golfing yips


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## Viernes

The Systemic Kid said:


> ......er, what problem(s)


Not sure yet











Mrboots2u said:


> Oh viernes , don't worry. Have you ordered one yet ?


It's on the way!


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## Viernes

ziobeege_72 said:


> The idea of removing the PF spring is an ingenius one, although I do like to bang out the puck and not have filter basket flying to all parts. I like to thwack hard.


There's no need to remove the spring. I always modify the springs to take out the baskets with ease; this way you can bang out the pucks but also you can remove the basket with just grab it with a cloth (to have more grip) and pull.


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## coffeechap

noooooooo not the yips, never sufferd from them either, perhaps we should discuss it all on the golf course....


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## ziobeege_72

Well by jingo I am getting much better on the vst's. Consistent extractions finally with lovely pours. I now formally submit to the gods of downdosing - being virtually everyone on this thread. 16g in the 18, tight grind, light tamp, bingo. I also found that nutating with a stem tamper also helps to mask my crappy distribution technique which is pretty key if you are down dosing (therefore making grooming a bit more difficult).


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## The Systemic Kid

ziobeege_72 said:


> Well by jingo I am getting much better on the vst's. Consistent extractions finally with lovely pours.


Good to hear you've cracked it.


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## vikingboy

good news! After I dose out from my k10f, I spin the thumb tamper lightly to help disperse the grinds across the fill diameter of the PF and then lightly nutate before giving it a short thumb press.


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## ziobeege_72

Cheers Vikingboy - do you use the Londinium tamper presumably? I'd love to get that working for me so will try your technique


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## vikingboy

yes I do oddly i even used my thumbs on the side of my reg barber too before the londinium one arrived as it allowed me to ensure it was level by feeling with my thumbs in the side of the basket vs top of tamper.


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