# Oh Dear......



## Father_Java

I bought a Quickmill Verona just over a year ago and have been using it daily ever since. I am very pleased with it and would happily recommend it to anyone in the market for that level of machine.

For a while now I have been thinking of buying a lighter and smaller machine for use on my canal boat and after much research I settled on the latest V4 Rancilio Sylvia purchased from Bella Barista.

Now for the 'Oh dear' part - the Verona cost me over £1,800 - the Sylvia cost me under £400. I cannot tell the difference between shots pulled on the Sylvia against shots pulled on the Verona, and, on top of that, in my experience, the Sylvia produces better micro-foamed milk !!!

My conclusion - for the large cost saving, if I were faced with the decision again, I would have gone for a Rancilio Sylvia in preference to the Quickmill Verona and bought two of them.

The only negative against the Sylvia (so far) is that I have to wait about a minute for the boiler to get up to steam temperature after pulling a couple of shots. The build quality of the Sylvia is not up to that of the Verona but it is still more than acceptable when weighed against the cost saving.

I think I have become a big fan of the Sylvia&#8230;&#8230;..


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## 4085

Not being rude,but surely this is all about your inability to extract a better shotfrom the Verona? I crtainly agree that owning a Porsche does not make you a racing driver,but owning a Porsche and knowing how to drive it will certainly get you half way there.

I am sure if you gave us more into about excatly how you prepare your shot etc, that some assistance might be forthccoming.


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## Mrboots2u

Hi What coffee do you use and what grinder


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## 4085

boots, you must learrn to read! He has a Mignon which is fine for a Silvia but no where near good enough for a VErona. I think this is going to be a long thread!


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## Mrboots2u

dfk41 said:


> boots, you must learrn to read! He has a Mignon which is fine for a Silvia but no where near good enough for a VErona. I think this is going to be a long thread!


Missed that..been a long day. what coffee then


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## Mrboots2u

Oh well. Sell the verona and buy another silvia


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## Father_Java

I am currently using freshly roasted beans from Bella Barista.

I am not complaining about the quality of the shots, what I am saying is that I can produce a shot from the Sylvia that (in my opinion) is every bit as good as a shot produced on the Verona. OK, I have to fiddle a little bit to get the Sylvia's brew temperature reasonable, but I don't find that to be a problem.

I also prefer the steaming capabilities of the Sylvia.


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## 4085

The point I am making, is that it is your own capabilities that is hampering your efforts. The Verona is well capable of putting a shot pulled on the Silvia to bed without any effort.Perhaps there are things you could do in your shot preparation. TheMignon, and being blunt, is only just above an entry level grinder. I am a big fan of them but they have their limits. If you had a grinder with larger burrs for example. Your coffee machine is just an oven, which bakes a cake with the ingredients you put in. You cannot expect a Stradivarius to be played well if you are using a cheap bow now can you. The Silvia will be the limit for your Mignon. You need a better grinder


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## coffeechap

I'll swap you a silvia fir the verona


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## coffeechap

In fact I will swap you two silvias for your Verona, then you would not gave to wait for steaming


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## Father_Java

Sooooo, I am a life long scientist and engineer at heart (and by trade before retirement).... can somebody explain to me in pure scientific/engineering terms why the Verona should produce a better shot than a Sylvia?

Lets face it, pushing a very small amount of water (a couple of oz) through a measured quantity of coffee at a specific temperature and pressure is hardly Rocket Science - or, is it?


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## garydyke1

Maybe the coffee used and grinder are the limited factor. Get better of both and suddenly night and day between the two machines


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## Father_Java

Sooooo, as a scientist and engineer for the whole of my working life (now retired), I am failing to understand why a shot pulled on a Sylvia should be significantly different to a shot pulled on the Verona (and this is what I am finding empirically).

At the end of the day, they are both pushing a relatively small amount of water (a couple of oz) through a measured amount of ground coffee at a similar temperature and pressure.... Why should the resultant product be significantly different between the two machines? What am I missing?


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## Dylan

I find the opinions here a little strange... it has been said many times that the Gaggia Classic is capable of pulling an excellent shot of espresso, as Java says, pushing liquid through a coffee puck at 9bar is pretty similar across machines.

The advantages come in with consistency, stability of temperature, ease of pulling multiple shots, temperature control via PID which can bet very useful with some beans...

Ultimately both machines are capable of pushing water through a puck, but the Rancillio won't be quite as accurate as doing so. Some of the shots coming out of the Rancillio stand every chance of matching the Verona, but the consistency in general will be lower.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Mrboots2u

Dylan said:


> I find the opinions here a little strange... it has been said many times that the Gaggia Classic is capable of pulling an excellent shot of espresso, as Java says, pushing liquid through a coffee puck at 9bar is pretty similar across machines.
> 
> The advantages come in with consistency, stability of temperature, ease of pulling multiple shots, temperature control via PID which can bet very useful with some beans...
> 
> Ultimately both machines are capable of pushing water through a puck, but the Rancillio won't be quite as accurate as doing so. Some of the shots coming out of the Rancillio stand every chance of matching the Verona, but the consistency in general will be lower.
> 
> Correct me if I'm wrong.


Agree to some degree......

Hypothetically though ( and i mean this this is in no way aimed at the OP, am i being hypothetical ) if all the shots are the same each time on the verona and the silvia / classic , would it infer that either and or

you are super amazing at temp surfing

not able to differentiate subtle changes in taste that perhaps other do

or that drowned in milk and sugar it all taste the same

or that you are using a coffee that no matter what you do to it , it doesn't change the taste alot .....

or that the machines are all the same , all the time


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## garydyke1

The peak desirable extraction based on the 3 limiting factors - a) solubility/quality of the coffee and b) the grind particle distribution /quality c) standard of shot prep may have already been reached already on both machines. Thats as good as thats gonna taste.

In theory the Verona should be more temperature stable and have a more desirable flow-rate along with more thorough pre-infusion meaning more consistent espresso.

The milk steaming is purely down to technique , as the verona will have more power and finish quicker. I get better microfoam on the Sage than ANY commercial espresso machine , thats just because i'm a bit shit. Not the machine


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## Dylan

Yea, I agree that there are very likely multiple factors to be considered here. Perhaps the OP is only pulling OK espresso, and that he has never really achieved the potential of the Verona, or any machine. It is hard to tell, I remember when I used to genuinely enjoy Costa or drink FP coffee made for me at work from a bag of stale supermarket ground coffee, only tasting better has adjusted what I think a good coffee is.

But for all the responses to be "your doing it wrong" just seems a little hostile and simplistic.


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## Dylan

garydyke1 said:


> the verona will have more power and finish quicker.


That's what she said.


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## Father_Java

*"Perhaps the OP is only pulling OK espresso, and that he has never really achieved the potential of the Verona, or any machine. It is hard to tell"*

.....And that is a distinct possibility that I would not dispute...... However, I remain to be convinced, that the Verona will produce a better shot than the Sylvia if a little bit of extra time and care is given to operating the lower cost machine (I agree that temperature surfing is a requirement with the Sylvia, but that is not an insurmountable problem).


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## coffeechap

you can get a great shot of coffee out of just about most machines, however some are 1 in 100 others are most times, the Verona will be more consistent than the silvia.

Have you had a truly knock out shot out of either of these machines?


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## Father_Java

*Have you had a truly knock out shot out of either of these machines?*

Now, this is where I struggle.... how do you define a 'knockout shot'? I do screw up at times and get a crap shot, but on the whole, I am satisfied with the vast majority. Have I ever achieved the so called God Shot? Probably not ??? but I don't know that I would recognise one if I achieved it.


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## coffeechap

ok, do you follow the basic principles of shot preparation (weigh in weigh out, with timed extraction as your starting point then adjust by taste?)


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## jeebsy

Have you ever made a shot, taken a sip, and thought 'bloody hell that's amazing'?


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## Gander24

jeebsy said:


> Have you ever made a shot, taken a sip, and thought 'bloody hell that's amazing'?


A shot in the mouth, immediately followed by one in the kegs you mean?


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## AussieEx

1. It's "Silvia" not Sylvia (glad I cleared that up)

2. Yes I've had a knock-out shot from Miss Silvia

3. Yes consistency is harder with a Silvia. A PID helps but isn't a magic bullet

4. It wasn't that long ago that everyone was wetting themselves with excitement at what could be achieved with a Rancilio Silvia.

5. The most significant limiting factor is barista skill.


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## Father_Java

My process - same for the Silvia and Verona: I always use the double shot basket and fill it straight from the grinder. I level the coffee in the basket and tamp firmly to a level puck. I will then pull the shot aiming for 2 ounces in around 25 seconds - however, I will stop the shot if I see it starting to blonde. I adjust the grind to achieve 2 fluid ounces in (around) 25 seconds.

Generally, when I open a new bag of coffee or change supplier/blend, it takes me 3 - 4 shots to dial in the grind to achieve the 2oz in (around) 25 seconds.

To answer previous questions: Personally, I only ever drink espresso or black Americano (mostly Americano), my Mrs prefers a milk based drink. Neither of us take sugar.

Sorry for the earlier typo, yes, it is Silvia, not Sylvia.


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## Glenn

I see you're in North London, not too far from me I'd wager

I've always advocated that a good barista can get the best out of any machine, and to that end some of the best shots from a Gaggia Classic can equal what's produced from a standard machine of higher spec

However, when you tweak the variables of the same coffee and a higher spec machine there should be a noticeable difference

Changing the extraction temperature by a degree or 2 may make a huge difference in the cup

You can slow down the milk steaming speed using the PID on the Verona as well (drop the steam temp down for a softer steam - which will take longer and allow you more time to control it)


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## Dylan

2oz in a fairly large pull, perhaps more of a lungo than a typical espresso pull. You may want to try tightening the grind and going for a shot almost half that size. It may just be you prefer the taste of a longer pull, some people do, but if you haven't tried it before its worth trying a typical shot.

Are you weighing the espresso or is it just levelling the basket? Generally its considered to be not accurate enough to just level the basket, a single gram (or even half) can make a substantial differene to the speed of the pull and the taste of the shot.


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## AussieEx

Agree with Glenn on temp. Dropped my PID set-point by 3°C this arvo and got a markedly better shot from my current beans.

Grind finer for a shorter shot than the 2oz doubles you're currently pulling to get a sweeter shot all else being equal. And weighing in and out is more consistent. I was slightly sceptical until I tried it - no going back.


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## Father_Java

Thanks for the advice guys, will give it a try.


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## RagingMammoth

Hm... as for steaming, higher powered wands require more skill.


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## jlarkin

I'd love to hear if it made any difference to your espressos - did you find the difference that makes a difference?



Father_Java said:


> Thanks for the advice guys, will give it a try.


I'm also (genuinely) interested in why you bought a relatively expensive machine, as a life long scientist and engineer, when you now don't see it's relative value compared to the Silvia etc.


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## Father_Java

jlarkin said:


> I'd love to hear if it made any difference to your espressos - did you find the difference that makes a difference?
> 
> I am still playing - but, so far, not seeing much difference - maybe just my sense of taste (very probable !!).
> 
> I'm also (genuinely) interested in why you bought a relatively expensive machine, as a life long scientist and engineer, when you now don't see it's relative value compared to the Silvia etc.


As an engineer, I appreciate engineering quality and the Verona certainly provides that. The Verona build and component quality is 'second to none' (in my humble opinion). The Silvia 'engineering' is, as would be expected, to a price and nowhere near as good as that of the Verona.

I am still of the opinion thought that I can't tell the difference between a shot made with the Silvia and a shot made with the Verona.

I will also be totally honest and admit that I failed to do any back to back analysis when selecting the Verona - I visited BB and based on the requirements I provided (repeatably good coffee with minimal fuss), was guided to the Verona.

Due to the size, power consumption and warm up time, the Verona is not the best machine for use on my narrow boat whereas the Silvia fits well.


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## jlarkin

Father_Java said:


> As an engineer, I appreciate engineering quality and the Verona certainly provides that. The Verona build and component quality is 'second to none' (in my humble opinion). The Silvia 'engineering' is, as would be expected, to a price and nowhere near as good as that of the Verona.
> 
> I am still of the opinion thought that I can't tell the difference between a shot made with the Silvia and a shot made with the Verona.
> 
> I will also be totally honest and admit that I failed to do any back to back analysis when selecting the Verona - I visited BB and based on the requirements I provided (repeatably good coffee with minimal fuss), was guided to the Verona.
> 
> Due to the size, power consumption and warm up time, the Verona is not the best machine for use on my narrow boat whereas the Silvia fits well.


That makes sense, thanks for taking the time to respond. At least you seem to have found two machines that currently work for you .

Joe


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