# Help with so many brewing variables!!



## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Hi Everyone

I have a Sage/Breville Barista Express BES870XL that I have been using for 2 years now, making OK coffee. Pressure gauge in the middle espresso range, drinkable latte and cappuccinos, but the base espresso always tastes just very sour or very bitter - never balanced. (using fresh beans etc, good crema etc). I use the single wall double basket btw.

I have done loads of reading over the last few days trying to understand more about proper espresso making - i.e. weights, doses, ratios etc but have now confused myself. I want to learn this way of using my machine so I can then progress to a EMC Synchronika and Mazzer Mini Electronic A some time this year.

Anyway - here's my thinking;

grind volume - should be around 18g for a double basket

this should produce around 60ml inc crema in 25-30 seconds if the grind is right (timed when the coffee starts to run, not the press of the button to start pre-infusion)

ideally this should be extracted at around 9 bar pressure

no idea what temp!!

So the way that Sage/Breville teach you to use the machine is by the pressure gauge - i.e. adjust grind and dose until pressure is 'right' then you'll have ok espresso.

I presume I need to dump that theory in this new proper method - in that I set the dose (i.e. 18g) and then adjust the grind size to get the extraction to be 25-30 seconds, for 60ml in the glass.

When experimenting I'll use the manual extraction mode rather than the preset buttons too. Ditto on the grinder - i.e. full manual mode









Also - when I change the grind size, I presume the actual physical volume of dose changes even though the weight would be the same - i.e. how much coffee physically is in the basket?

Does all that make sense?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Weigh in and weigh out . Don't pull 60ml just coz that's a "double " of 2 fl ounces

What coffee are you using also?

Go back to basics - weighing out your espresso as well as your dose , noting time and taste . Don't kill a shot by time , stop of when you not your desired weight .

I know you say you have done reading but re visit this please. If you want help adjusting the taste then give us weight in - weight out ( not volume ) and time and basic taste .

Beginners Reading - Weighing Espresso - Brew Ratios

https://r.tapatalk.com/shareLink?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcoffeeforums%2Eco%2Euk%2Fshowthread%2Ephp%3Ft%3D22879&share_tid=22879&share_fid=6813&share_type=t


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Thanks for the link - I must admit most of my reading has been on the american site home-barista.com where they just seem to over complicate things!

I'll have a read of the beginners thread.

The beans I'm using are from a little artisan roaster in Leicester, it was a kenyan blend they have made - I bought a week ago and they were roasted a week before that so still within the decent window of time I think.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

itguy said:


> Thanks for the link - I must admit most of my reading has been on the american site home-barista.com where they just seem to over complicate things!
> 
> I'll have a read of the beginners thread.
> 
> The beans I'm using are from a little artisan roaster in Leicester, it was a kenyan blend they have made - I bought a week ago and they were roasted a week before that so still within the decent window of time I think.


Ok , ignore some of the noise you mat have read , like blonding, 2 fl ounces etc . Read the thread , try some coffee , come back and we can help .


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Kenyan 'blend' rings alarm bells. In any case Kenyan coffee isn't an ideal origin for espresso when starting out, acidity levels are very high and can bring an unbalanced cup in the hands of a novice


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Interesting re the kenyan - not thought about that to be honest.

What kind of bean/blend would you suggest I try to start with to get things balanced in the cup as best I can - for a beginner?

I am not that keen on really dark roasts but am willing to try anything to be honest.


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

One other quick question regarding the timing - in the beginners article you didn't mention (that I saw, may have missed it) when to start the timer.

Is it from the moment the coffee hits to glass to when you have the right weight you are aiming for?

Just wondered so I can be consistent with others. I have also just ordered a set of Brewista Smart Scales online but will be mid next week before they are delivered - I thought the built in timer would be helpful in this experimenting.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Start timing from when you hit the brew button.

Yes, the shot is completed when you hit target weight.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

itguy said:


> Interesting re the kenyan - not thought about that to be honest.
> 
> What kind of bean/blend would you suggest I try to start with to get things balanced in the cup as best I can - for a beginner?
> 
> I am not that keen on really dark roasts but am willing to try anything to be honest.


Brazilian Single origin is a great start for espresso


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

Sorry to jump in on the thread, I've read the thread with the basics and I've done 16g of coffee on grind level 25 on my sage pro grinder and got 33g in 15 seconds. Then changed the grind to 20 and did another 16g and got 35g in 27 seconds. On the first the puck was quite wet on the top, on the second, it was a lot drier.

so am I right in thinking that the espresso produced can now be used as a base for a milk drink - latte, cappuccino, etc or add water for an americano....thanks Paul


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PHB1969 said:


> Sorry to jump in on the thread, I've read the thread with the basics and I've done 16g of coffee on grind level 25 on my sage pro grinder and got 33g in 15 seconds. Then changed the grind to 20 and did another 16g and got 35g in 27 seconds. On the first the puck was quite wet on the top, on the second, it was a lot drier.
> 
> so am I right in thinking that the espresso produced can now be used as a base for a milk drink - latte, cappuccino, etc or add water for an americano....thanks Paul


Taste it and try ....


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Taste it and try ....


I made an americano with the both of the shots. The second once was a lot better than the first - neither tasted bad, but I preferred the second. Is that what you meant by taste it and see?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PHB1969 said:


> I made an americano with the both of the shots. The second once was a lot better than the first - neither tasted bad, but I preferred the second. Is that what you meant by taste it and see?


Yep - a ratio , weighing in and weighing out is only there to help you get to tasty and repeat it .

A 16g> 33g out doesn't guarantee tasty for everyone , a 1:2 ratio isn't for everyone . It's a decent starting point but don't feel constrained by it .

Ultimately it needs to taste good , if that means to takes 25 or 35 seconds don't matter


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## PHB1969 (Dec 26, 2016)

...and wow, the espresso on its own was like rocket fuel - to be honest, I don't mind it, but it's not my wife's cup of tea!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PHB1969 said:


> I made an americano with the both of the shots. The second once was a lot better than the first - neither tasted bad, but I preferred the second. Is that what you meant by taste it and see?


The 15second shot was likely very under-extracted.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

PHB1969 said:


> ...and wow, the espresso on its own was like rocket fuel - to be honest, I don't mind it, but it's not my wife's cup of tea!


If you're making it to drink black, you could try making it a little weaker. Espresso is stronger than manual brewed coffee, but the ratio you brew at controls the strength. If 1:2 is too strong try 1:3?


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## jthepilot (Dec 13, 2016)

In the end it's nothing more than personal preference.... we are all trying to make it mathematical.

Make the espresso as you like it!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

jthepilot said:


> In the end it's nothing more than personal preference.... we are all trying to make it mathematical.
> 
> Make the espresso as you like it!


Numbers help you get to the point where you enjoy what you brew . Unless your advice is add some coffee and some water and hope it comes out ok somehow.

Brewi it with water at some temperature and at some pressure till it stops going from some kind of brown to another kind of brown ..


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jthepilot said:


> Make the espresso as you like it!


Explain to someone else how you did that, without using a number.


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## jthepilot (Dec 13, 2016)

Fair enough, but most people here treat the number as the golden standard....

It's a guideline a point to start... I wish it was as simple as 18G in 36G out in 30 seconds, would make life so much easier!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

jthepilot said:


> Fair enough, but most people here treat the number as the golden standard....
> 
> It's a guideline a point to start... I wish it was as simple as 18G in 36G out in 30 seconds, would make life so much easier!


Well, you have overcomplicated things by adding another number, replacing an essential aspect of the recipe. You should be aiming 1:2/18.0g:36g at a grind that gives you a sweet/balanced cup, rather than in 30s specifically. If you can't get that at 1:2, at any grind setting, try 1:2.5, or 1:3.


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Well!!

Finally got my bonavita 0.1g scales today and had a PROPER play with the Barista Express and some Origin Coffee Resolute Blend (Espresso). Beans were roasted on 22nd December, so nice and ready for use.

Warmed up the machine for 15 mins, ran 3 empty shots through the portafilter and I was ready.

I weighed in 18g into the grinder, got 17.2g out. added a bit more and got to 18g in the portafilter and then brewed an espresso. Weighed it out at 36g (Origin recommend 1:2 ratio for the beans) and it took 14s!! Grind was set to 9 on the Barista Express.

Did it again, set grind to 6, weighed in and out, this time 19s.

Did it again, set grind to 4, weighted in and out and got 29s - tasted this one and it really started to bring the flavours though - so have left it here for now.

Thought I'd steam some full fat milk and make a flat white with the shot I pulled - absolutely blew me away. It was without doubt the BEST tasting coffee I have ever made myself.

Maybe I struck lucky or have just low standards, but either way I just wanted to make another - but I know I won't sleep if I do!!

God I'm looking forward to tomorrow morning now when I get on and get some more shots pulled.

Incidentally - I didn't read the pressure gauge on the front of the machine very much (just ignored it really), but it did seem to be right at the very top end of the espresso range, but it has no markings as to what pressure this is. I've just come to believe that it is probably calibrated to work with the 'razor' thing you get with the machine anyway and as such probably is more like a 16g shot pulled volumetrically into 60mls, so WAY too long extraction too.

Forgetting all that jazz and using the proper manual weigh in weigh out I'm well chuffed.

One quick dilemma though - on the Barista Express, to pull a shot manually you have to start a pre-infusion (for as long as you want) then let it go to full pressure. I'm timing from when I start pre-infusion, but is this right and how long would it be right to pre-infuse for normally?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Time from start of preinfusion


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Thanks for the confirmation - what slightly confused me was the fact that the scales can auto Time from when the coffee hits the cup - but I haven't been using that function, just auto tare.


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Interesting stuff this morning - could do with some help/advice.

Grinder in position it was yesterday, setting 4. Purged some coffee first (3-4g) then weighed out 18g into the basket. Machine had been warmed up for 15-20 mins and 2 naked double pulls through it prior.

Tamped as normal (I have one of the clicke-mat (https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/click-mat-by-espressogear.html).

This pulled through at 40s. inc 5 seconds pre infusion.

Set the grinder to 5, purged and re-ran, 29s inc 5 second pre infusion. - Tasted good.

Left it a while (machine still on), then pulled another espresso after an hour. grinder set to 5, shot sped through, c.20 seconds.

Set grinder to 4, purged and re-ran - got 29s.

What's going on here then? Would machine temperature make this difference or is something weird going on with my grinder?

I'm ruling out the tamp as I am using the tamp mat, backing off as soon as I get a click (like using a torque wrench on the car etc).


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Are you using a bottomless pf?


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## itguy (Jun 26, 2015)

Unfortunately not - i'm using a normal single wall double basket, it's a 54mm too.


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## steve.kuberski (Feb 22, 2017)

Hi i feel the pain, that is inconsistent draws. I've had some extremely exciting results recently by making two changes. I've lowered my dose to 16.5g to 17g and adding bottled water to my local water 50/50.


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## BrownBottleCoffee (Sep 28, 2016)

Great question & some awesome answers, what an amazing community you guys have here.

Our company Brown Bottle Coffee have just joined & we love how friendly & helpful everyone is.

We have a Sage Oracle on display in our store, which is slightly similar to the Barista Express it does all the same stuff the Barista Express does but tamps the coffee too. What we've found makes a good grind in terms of settings is for the grinder to be set at 14, the extraction tends to start at around 8-9 seconds and for me anyway I usually kill it at around 18-19 seconds.

The puck is always dry on the top & the flavour is consistent each time.

I've found this always give a really sweet tasty espresso.

We use this machine when we first get into work rather than firing up any of our commercial machines because it makes a great cup!!


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## YerbaMate170 (Jun 15, 2015)

I'm really amazed at Barista Express owners who can get good coffee from a grind setting of 4 or 5 and above, I've had my machine a week or so and I'm using setting 1 or 2... Anything else and I get sour shots. I wasn't expecting perfection from a built in grinder but my advice based on a few days of practise is to grind just about as fine as this grinder will allow. Only go coarser if you're choking the machine which, from my experience, is very difficult with the BE.

Also, the pressure sensor is a bit naff, mine is off the scales i.e. above the ideal range indicated but again, if I tamp softer or grind coarser (i.e. do something to try and reduce the pressure) I get sour shots.


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