# Longevity of E61 HX machines versus Sage Oracle



## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

Hello there fellow coffee lovers,

I have appreciated great coffee ever since living in Italy for a while, but like most Italians, I decided to stick with the moka for home use. Evenutally that didn't do it and so I went for a De'Longhi Dedica 685, which worked well for a while but ended in disaster (the pre-ground coffee would barely drip out). After sending the machine back and having bad experiences with the new one as well, it was time to upgrade and the need to be able to grind your own coffee was clear. So here I am: a newbie to higher end machines but so excited to learn and ready to take a leap. The thing is, I am stuck between two philosophies... E61 HX machines (looking intensely at the Lelit Mara X) or the Sage Oracle.

Honestly, the fact that the Sage Oracle automates everything turns me off a bit but I hear you can also do things manually. The draw to this machine for me is that I would be getting a dual boiler and grinder that apparently produce amazing results for about the same cost as an E61 HX + separate grinder without timer and with about 20 min of warm-up time. Not to mention the learning curve on the latter.

There must be a reason the E61 HX set-up costs about the same and I am guessing it is longevity. I definitely want this machine to be with me for a few decades - I am not into throwing things into landfills. I would guess that all the plastic components made in China and the gadgets makes such machines less long-lived and that something retaining a design element from 1961 is more sturdy. Is that a silly assumption? What is the better quality machine for the price and what are we looking at in maintenance costs over time with each? How do the results in the cup compare? With the Lelit Mara X, will I even be able to make good coffee on it in a reasonable amount of time (can't believe most E61 HX machines have no extraction timers!)? A bit worried about spending a lot to end up with crap coffee due to my own incapability...


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

I think to be honest the main issue with the oracle is that it's all in one.

I can't imagine that sage make multiple grinders, so I'm imagining that the oracle essentially has the same grinder as the barista express, which is probably essentially a sage smart grinder Pro?

If you went for a hx or low end dual boiler, the grinder you could buy with the leftover budget would blow the sage grinder out the water. That's probably a lot of the difference in cost between the two.

Also, the ability to repair and maintain an E61 machine is convenient. Should also last year's if treated well. Longevity of sage machines is questioned a lot, but to be fair I haven't actually heard of any particular disasters. Personally I'd rather not have to ship a machine somewhere for it to be serviced, I'd prefer to fix myself if possible.

I'm skeptical about automating the process of making a coffee. Bean to cups are never considered as good as a manual process. If it's all manual you can tweak a lot more stuff to get a better coffee. Just because it's automated doesn't necessarily mean it's automated to do the best job!

Flip side, in favour of the oracle, it's a good looking machine, it's all in one which some people see as being convenient and tidy, automation can be a good thing if you want simplicity.

That's my take on it anyway!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

I'd be surprised if you can find commercial grade solenoids, controllers, pressure stats and PIDs in the Sage machines.

Don't waste your money on the Oracle. There are probably better bean to cup machines out there if that's what you want.

If you want longevity look for something that's made of replaceable parts that are of a high quality and are readily available. Most E61 machines will meet this requirement.

It's highly unlikely any of the Sages will last you a decade or more.

You will need a good grinder along with the machine. Minimum spend is about £350 for a decent grinder, ex-commercial might be found for marginally less.



> With the Lelit Mara X, will I even be able to make good coffee on it in a reasonable amount of time (can't believe most E61 HX machines have no extraction timers!)? A bit worried about spending a lot to end up with crap coffee due to my own incapability...


 I'm not sure what the relationship is between the lack of inbuilt shot timers and the other question. A shot timer is of very little use. You are better off getting some good scales to weigh the output, a lot of them have timers you can use if you want. Make the espresso by the dose compared to the weight in the cup, not time.

There are a few threads you should read. Have a look at the stickied posts in the Barista skills for home enthusiasts section. There are probably more stickies around to look at to like in Coffee Lounge and Grinders | Machines | Accessories. Stickies are always at the top of the thread list so are easy to find. The better your equipment the easier it is to learn. If you're contending with poor temperature stability or a poor grinder you'll have a hard time learning how to make good coffee.



> I would guess that all the plastic components made in China and the gadgets makes such machines less long-lived and that something retaining a design element from 1961 is more sturdy. Is that a silly assumption?


 In a way, yes, in a way no. The E61 doesn't automatically make something more sturdy. And there's nothing wrong with electronics and plastic parts, so long as they're designed properly, located safely and spaced appropriately, and suited for the task (made out of appropriate plastic)....But it doesn't really matter in this comparison and for the purpose of this conversation.


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

Hey, thanks for your answers!

@Rob1 I don't know about commercial grade, but The Oracle definitely has a PID system (espresso boiler with Digital PID and Heated group head-PID controlled embedded element). As for my insistence on the shot timer, isn't it a mix of extraction time, weight in/out and how the coffee looks that helps you understand, at least in the beginning, if the shot is right? And consistency can't be made easier when you can't set either the ml coming out or extraction time as you can on most non hx machines (whether more or less expensive). But yeah, I'll definitely have a look at the threads you recommended - thanks!

@jaffro Supposedly the Oracle's grinder is better that the Barista Express with 45 settings as opposed to 30. I, too, am skeptical about automation - but it seems you can actually tweak the process a lot more with The Oracle - choosing exact temperatures etc. Just seems like you get a lot in the Oracle package: dual boiler, decent grinder, output settings, high precision... almost a no brainer if not for this nagging feeling that "old school" will be better / more reliable in the long run.

If I go with the Lelit Mara X, I would likely pair it with the Eureka Mignon Magnifica. It is supposedly a step up from the Specialità but, I've read, only available in Germany (where I am based).



Rob1 said:


> It's highly unlikely any of the Sages will last you a decade or more.


 Is that experience or gut feelings talking? That would also be my gut feeling, but perhaps I'm being unfair...


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## jaffro (Oct 6, 2015)

cafekrazd said:


> Hey, thanks for your answers!
> 
> @Rob1 I don't know about commercial grade, but The Oracle definitely has a PID system (espresso boiler with Digital PID and Heated group head-PID controlled embedded element). As for my insistence on the shot timer, isn't it a mix of extraction time, weight in/out and how the coffee looks that helps you understand, at least in the beginning, if the shot is right? And consistency can't be made easier when you can't set either the ml coming out or extraction time as you can on most non hx machines (whether more or less expensive). But yeah, I'll definitely have a look at the threads you recommended - thanks!
> 
> ...


 Fair enough! The thing I'm now skeptical about is whether 45 adjustment settings is better than 30 settings on the same grinder 😉

I guess it's 40mm burrs or something, and I guess the burrs are the same on both. Just different adjustment levels. So grind setting changes are easier, but grind quality is exactly the same.

If you're looking new, something like an ACS Minima and Niche would come in at a similar price to an oracle, or a eureka mignon if you don't want to wait for a Niche.

If you look for used machines, tons of options for HX or dual boilers.

If you're looking for used grinders, whatever you want. Used mazzer grinders can certainly be found within the price range.

The oracle is in a weird price bracket for me. Enough money to mean you have to be serious about coffee to buy it, but if you're in that price bracket you're likely willing to play with equipment and settings to get better results!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

cafekrazd said:


> 1. As for my insistence on the shot timer, isn't it a mix of extraction time, weight in/out and how the coffee looks that helps you understand, at least in the beginning, if the shot is right?
> 
> 2. And consistency can't be made easier when you can't set either the ml coming out or extraction time as you can on most non hx machines (whether more or less expensive). But yeah, I'll definitely have a look at the threads you recommended - thanks!
> 
> ...


 1. As I said, getting scales with in built timers is easy. Time isn't particularly useful, you're just going to be looking at 25-40 seconds as a target to get your brew ratio. So long as its within that you can taste the shot and make adjustments to grind and ratio from there. How it looks/flow rate is not going to look good if the time is way off. That said, if you want to do things based on time you do you.

2. The volumetric function is terrible, users report that it is not useful. Consistency +/-2g is easy with starting and stopping the brew when you're approaching your target yield. It's not remotely difficult, most of the time I'm out by 0.5g or less and I only vaguely aiming for a target of say 45g.

3. You will want to upgrade from the grinder almost immediately. Look around the forum and see the number of threads started by people with Sage machines struggling to even grind fine enough to slow the shots, or consistently enough to get good extractions. Even people who are fans of Sage are quite honest about the shortcomings of the grinders and warn against getting the Oracle or smart grinder. The advice you will generally receive is to avoid any machine with an inbuilt grinder, Sage or not.

4. Not first hand experience. Use the search function and use various terms like "sage repair" for reports of broken Sage machines, also look for people asking for help with the shots they're getting from Oracles and BEs and see if you still want to buy one. The only experience I have with Sage machines comes from trying to help people get something drinkable from their Oracles or BEs, or various combinations of machines with the smart grinder pro, and no I don't think that's just because they're beginners, I think the grinder is a huge limitation on what they can get out of their machines.

If you want to get a Sage get the dual boiler or even the one compared to a Gaggia Classic. There are some pretty cool mods you can do to the DB to give you pressure profiling (or flow profiling). But you want it to last decades. So again, look through the forum using the search function and see if you think that's likely, there are many more people who have previously posted their experiences than you'll get replying to this thread, so you'll get a better picture. All machines need servicing and parts will need replacing at some point regardless of what you buy.

Good luck with whatever you decide to buy.


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

Thanks guys - both answers were super helpful!


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Honestly honestly stay away from the Oracle. 
The grinder is pants for the cost of the machine. 
It takes away all the things you would want to do manually, like dosing and tamping.

You will outgrow it very fast which is ridiculous for the cost.

The lower down sages Duo Temp, BE etc. are good value for money. But the oracle is getting close to high end machine money and there are so many options out there.

The main issue with sages is that if/when it goes wrong you are basically naffed outside of warranty. Parts are impossible to find, and don't seem to fit properly.


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## 17845 (Jan 10, 2018)

@cafekrazd,

I had the Duo Temp and smart grinder, to be honest the grinder was abit pants when it came to the finer end of grinding.

The Duo Temp was an ok machine but very limited in what you could do with it, I soon outgrew the "I do everything" concept.

I moved both on when I heard all the horror stories of sage replacement parts not being available to buy (still the case today ?)

Putting a fear into me that I would have a land fill machine sooner, rather than later.

I ended up buying the Lelit Mara PL62, which was the MaraX predecessor and a Mignon Specialita - very happy with both and full of confidence that if things go wrong, I could fix them.


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

@hubcap good to hear your experience with the Duo Temp and also that you are happy with the Lelit Mara PL62.

I think I am starting to get a clearer picture here -going with my gut on this may not be the worst thing as Sage machines do seem to have a reputation of being hard/expensive to repair (mind you, I am not the type that would be repairing the machine myself, but still).

@jaffro after your recommendation of the ACS Minima I looked into it and got intrigued, but then found some horrible stories about it. On the Kaffee Netz German forum, one guy called the shop we are planning to buy our machine from and asked about the ACS Minima. The salesman answered that 8 out of 10 that they sell are returned and pretty much said to stay away. Yikes.

So now that I am leaning away from Sage, what is your opinion on the E61 group head? Is there a lot of maintence involved with a machine like the Lelit Mara? One shop here told me they would recommend using a water filter for soft water and bringing it in for a check up every 2.5 years (for like €179). Then I have read about having to grease the lever once a month (sounds daunting) and I am guessing it needs to be descaled every now and then. Is this less/more/similar maintence to what one would expect with other deisgns? Why is it that so many hx machines use this group head but so many dual boilers (and more simple machines) don't? Pros, cons? (surely that is discussed elsewhere in this forum - I'll search a bit).


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

cafekrazd said:


> @jaffro after your recommendation of the ACS Minima I looked into it and got intrigued, but then found some horrible stories about it. On the Kaffee Netz German forum, one guy called the shop we are planning to buy our machine from and asked about the ACS Minima. The salesman answered that 8 out of 10 that they sell are returned and pretty much said to stay away. Yikes.
> 
> So now that I am leaning away from Sage, what is your opinion on the E61 group head? Is there a lot of maintence involved with a machine like the Lelit Mara? One shop here told me they would recommend using a water filter for soft water and bringing it in for a check up every 2.5 years (for like €179). Then I have read about having to grease the lever once a month (sounds daunting) and I am guessing it needs to be descaled every now and then. Is this less/more/similar maintence to what one would expect with other deisgns? Why is it that so many hx machines use this group head but so many dual boilers (and more simple machines) don't? Pros, cons? (surely that is discussed elsewhere in this forum - I'll search a bit).


 Yeah there have been some problems with the Minima. I don't know how many batches were affected or how long the problem went unnoticed. Did the salesman say why they were returned? I will go ahead and assume it's the overfilling service boiler issue....Paolo at ACS is aware of the issue and is working on it. I have a beta and it's a fantastic machine, and the build quality improved with the production machines. A great advantage is the solenoid E61 doesn't have a cam lever than needs lubricating every time you backflush, which you should be doing regularly to keep the group clean. I would recommend the Minima but only if you can get one after confirming the issue is resolved. There's a thread on it on this forum and I think the problem is probably something very simple like an inadequate thread on the ground wire connection as a user found here https://www.home-barista.com/repairs/acs-minima-dualboiler-leaking-problem-on-first-day-t61332-10.html. #

*EDIT: The issue with Minimas overfilling has been resolved.*


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

Anybody heard anything about the Bezzera Crema? An hx machine without an E61 group head and only 10min warm up time. Just wondering. Quite a nice design. (I know the BZ10 isn't insulated though so that the machine gets hot to the touch and not just on the group head, so if that is the case with the Bezzera Crema PM as well, nevermind.)


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## Pseudonym (Aug 31, 2016)

Ive had the Oracle for 3yrs and I need to disagree with what's been said here. The grinder in the machine is the same as the SGP but with 45 levels of adjustment in an espresso setting as opposed to 60 levels of adjustment for all coffee types. never had an issue with it and it was a great machine to introduce me to better coffee while still allowing me to not know very much. All I needed to do in the beginning was pull a shot and adjust the grind gradually to dial in. the Auto milk texturing is better than any highstreet chain milk based drink you could find.

During my time of ownership its been great. from the beginning of my 3rd wave coffee journey and basically using the machine in default factory settings, to then being able to customise pretty much everything a similar Prosumer machine can do.

Ive loved the machine. I have. I was going to sell it but I think I might have convinced my wife to keep it as well as upgrade to the ACS Vesuvius!! Happy Days!

What has been said about warranty is true. There is only 1 approved repairer in the UK - Coffee Classics and parts are exclusively restricted to them by Sage UK as a monopoly in the market for service and repair. They also complete all of the warranty repairs on the Sage coffee machine range. Ive just had my Oracle repaired after the temp sensor in the wand failed but it was a relatively inexpensive repair all in, and it was my fault anyway - not so long story but not on topic.

It comes down to how you want to learn? If you want to spend differently and have separate grinder to upgrade each as you grow or do as I did and keep the machine until you feel you have outgrown it.


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## Pseudonym (Aug 31, 2016)

A follow up on service and sage.

Initial set up of an oracle - Sage still offer the White Glove Service. Which means an informed and experienced person will attend your home, walk you through set up and pull some shots with you to get you going - basic barista training for the machine so to speak.

If under warranty or not, you have the option to have an engineer attend your home to service / repair your machine. no shipping required but wait times can be longer than shipping the machine to the workshop.

On the subject of shipping. Coffee Classics offer the ability to send you a purpose formed transport box to ensure there is minimal risk with shipping to the workshop.

Hope this helps explain the story from the other side of ownership and the Sage experience.

Cheers,

Rob


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## cafekrazd (Jul 17, 2020)

Thanks for providing the other side of the story, Rob.

We don't have the white glove service here in Germany and repairs evidently must be sent to the Czech Republic from here, so that certainly makes things a bit less attractive. Either way though, a few weeks of research and contemplation led me to buy the Mara X with a Eureka Mignon Magnifico grinder in the end and I am oh so happy, so far at least (check out the pic - ain't she purdy?!). Hoping she'll serve me well over the next decades...

Now I am playing with brew ratios, cleaning regimens, various roasts and the question of whether I will ever be able to make coffee without a scale at my side, but these are all issues for different threads. Fun times! 😉

Thanks all!


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## Pseudonym (Aug 31, 2016)

You'll definitely need scales. no question. One with an inbuilt timer - possibly not. Scales are relatively in expensive. I found these on Amazon - a blatant rip off of the Acaia Pearl but at that price with the same. functionality, I can't grumble for a 3rd or 4th set of scales it is now...

https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B08BCSGH5W/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Hope that helps


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