# An odyssey into the espressosphere!



## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Hi All,

I have been reading threads on the forum for a year or so now and have taken much advice away to slowly improve my home brewed coffee with the meager equipment I have to hand (Delonghi Sculptura, reconditioned Mazza Lux Auto, Aeropress and lots of nice independent roasted beans).

The time has finally come to spend some cash on a proper coffee machine and accessories and thought it might be useful to share this experience, start to finish, to seek your combined advice and guidance along the way to brewing a better shot at home.







Given the many and various experiences and opinions of folk on the forum, this could be a lot of fun, stop me making too many textbook schoolboy errors and hopefully useful to others at the same time.

*Job 1 Done! *- have spoken to Claudette at Bella Barista to check on a time and date to pop in and taken found a good reason to be out the office for the afternoon. I seem to have chosen the week of the London Coffee Festival so folk are off to see the pros but hey ho, there will be folk there and off we go!

*Question 1* *- what to look at and trial? *



*
*My expresso requirements are - 2 to 3 flat whites a day (when working from home and weekend, it's 4 plus) with capacity to make a lot more for friends and family at the weekend (all seem to be needed at once). So have a need for brew and steam quickly and deliver for all around the kitchen table at once. I normally have a rotation of at least 3 sets of beans depending on mood and drink I fancy making.

My budget is around £2k for machine and some accessories if required. I will stick with the Mazzer as a grinder for the moment as I recently reconditioned it fully after rescuing it from the skip (local coffee shop went bust) and have invested in the new burr heads and it grinds to a fair fineness.

So after reading all the reviews on the forum top 3 are: Izzo Alex Duetto IV, R58, QM Verona plus look at any similar machines in the cost and capability of these dual boilers - *is this a good starting point or am I missing something?*

*Question 2 - **what accessories should I get at same time?*



*
**Thoughts? *Am thinking of also picking up a timer for shots, tamper stand, maybe also a good tamper.

Please chip in guys, am keen to understand from those who have already walked the path well trodden!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Deffo dual boiler, and the ones you list are all cracking machines, you will more than likely have a favorite already but be prepared to change your mind once you get there.

Scales, timer, tamper, stand/matt, jug/jugs, IMS/VST baskets, maybe also change the shower screen, i did the R50 one for an IMS one, no real difference apart from easier to clean.

Take your time and try to play on all of them.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> So after reading all the reviews on the forum top 3 are: Izzo Alex Duetto IV, R58, QM Verona plus look at any similar machines in the cost and capability of these dual boilers - *is this a good starting point or am I missing something?*


Throw Profitec Pro 700 into the list. Some people who have been thinking of R58 got the Profitec Pro 700 instead. One of them was @aaronb, he might be able to tell you more.

R58 is nicer looking machine while Profitec Pro 700 has a shot timer and a less complicated architecture inside (less solenoid valves, easier to work with, etc.). I am considering to get one of them in the long run.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Dont forget fresh beans, ensure you have them rested ready for new toy to arrive!!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

froggystyle said:


> Take your time and try to play on all of them.


I am working on a scientific approach to the selection so intend to run the same "play" on each - i.e. same dose, same bean - taste expresso, then run again with milk steamed to check brew temp stability. Check out the fixtures and fittings and ease of cleaning.

What other "playing" would you do in a machine selection test?

I have no major favourite at the moment but do like the Verona because of time and effort in internal design (am an industrial process engineer by trade so love a vertically slung and damped motor!), the brass "tasteless" brew boiler and the simplicity of front.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

OK, as always, I am going to swim against the tide. I have a Profitec 700, and an Orchestrale Nota which is loosely defined as an HX, but it is not really. The Nota kicks the 700 into touch if you want a machine that makes coffee as tour primary need. The 700 has a large steam boiler and a pretty small brew boiler. The result is that the Pid tells you the temp has dropped by several degrees whenever you pull a shot. This may or may not be true of course since why would the addition of a small amount of cold water into a large amount of hot water do that? therefore, one has to question the whole accuracy and need for a Pid. Despite the larger steam boiler, it has a no burn wand which basically means it has a plastic pipe running up the middle which leaves the wand cool to touch, but also reduces the ability to steam by a large amount. the Nota is temp stable and you can pull as many shots as you want and steam at the same time all day long, having a 3 litre boiler.

The 700 has lots of nice touches, looks nice and is very well made. You can switch the steam boiler off if you want, but so what? The two machines are neigh on the same price. The Nota has a thermo syphon meaning a pipe runs from the boiler into the group and back to the boiler so the water runs in a continual loop, meaning it is not sitting in the group overheating. You can buy a wide range of accessories such as 4 different side panels. I bought a black borsicallate for the right side and a transparent one to show off the internals for the left side. I also bought a stainless steel pf which is the nicest handle I have ever had, and beats the GS3 hands down in my humble.

So, you can be another shiney box E61 owner or you can customise a machine that kicks them in to touch anyway........BB sell both.......do not take my biased word. Ask them to put the Nota up against the 700, Duetto, Verona or any of the Rockets and see for yourself


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## aaronb (Nov 16, 2012)

PPapa said:


> Throw Profitec Pro 700 into the list. Some people who have been thinking of R58 got the Profitec Pro 700 instead. One of them was @aaronb, he might be able to tell you more.
> 
> R58 is nicer looking machine while Profitec Pro 700 has a shot timer and a less complicated architecture inside (less solenoid valves, easier to work with, etc.). I am considering to get one of them in the long run.


Wasn't me @PPapa, I'm still knocking out the shots on my trusty L1!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

rcoltz said:


> I am working on a scientific approach to the selection so intend to run the same "play" on each - i.e. same dose, same bean - taste expresso, then run again with milk steamed to check brew temp stability. Check out the fixtures and fittings and ease of cleaning.
> 
> What other "playing" would you do in a machine selection test?
> 
> I have no major favourite at the moment but do like the Verona because of time and effort in internal design (am an industrial process engineer by trade so love a vertically slung and damped motor!), the brass "tasteless" brew boiler and the simplicity of front.


Not sure if they will have them all set up though, ask before you go!

They all do the same thing at the end of the day, put water at a set temp/pressure though the coffee, grinder and beans are more important.

Dont get fooled by silly tech, the E61 has been around for years!


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

aaronb said:


> Wasn't me @PPapa, I'm still knocking out the shots on my trusty L1!


Sorry Aaron, I meant @aaroncornish!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

aaronb said:


> Wasn't me @PPapa, I'm still knocking out the shots on my trusty L1!


Was Aaron Cornish, cant remember his username?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

froggystyle said:


> Was Aaron Cornish, cant remember his username?


It's a complicated one, you'll never guess it  (yes I have seen it's also already included above)...


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

Until you get rid of the X in your thread title you are not allowed any espresso machines









Give me a shout if you want to chat about the 700 and why I chose it. Happy to help









You are in good hands with BB. They are super helpful.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> OK, as always, I am going to swim against the tide. I have a Profitec 700, and an Orchestrale Nota which is loosely defined as an HX, but it is not ....


Will check out both. Good call!

Not even considered the Nota but it does look rather dramatically Italian. Cannot believe it is the same size as the Duetto as it looks massive!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

aaroncornish said:


> Until you get rid of the X in your thread title you are not allowed any espresso machines


I said that there was much to learn! Shame i have no permission to change the thread title (please help admin!)


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## aaroncornish (Nov 7, 2012)

It's a steep learning curve







but very rewarding


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> Will check out both. Good call!
> 
> Not even considered the Nota but it does look rather dramatically Italian. Cannot believe it is the same size as the Duetto as it looks massive!


I did exactly that. Went to BB and came back with a Pro 700. I really like the machine. Marko and Jordan are great and always very helpful.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

The point I was trying to make, was that it is not one of the usual suspects, but, check it out. I drink mainly americans with no need for a steam boiler so the 700 on aper scores there but......have a shot when you are there!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

aaroncornish said:


> It's a steep learning curve
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I should probably translate "steep learning curve" & "rewarding":

I am sure you are already at stage 1, having learned just to smile and bite your lip when mates/relatives mention coffee...

Within 6 months there will be one cafe in a 20 mile radius that you will be happy to visit.

Within a year, owning a piece of kitchen equipment the same price as your car will merit serious thought.

Depending on how fast the "learning curve" is, within 3 years the "reward" you will either have: a shed, a divorce or a method of reporting concepts such as "cost" and "price" that will fit you for a job as a government economist.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

oursus said:


> I should probably translate "steep learning curve" & "rewarding":
> 
> I am sure you are already at stage 1, having learned just to smile and bite your lip when mates/relatives mention coffee...
> 
> ...


I did not think that the thread would include an existential view to coffee enjoyment but you could be right. Stage 1 already attained, local cafe scene destroyed! I have at least 2 within walking distance I would go to ... maybe. I count my local roaster as also a cafe now as Tom at Redber always brews me a lovely shot when I pop in (make sure you try the Panama Palmyra!). Shed, divorce and new economic outlook still pending.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

oursus said:


> Depending on how fast the "learning curve" is, within 3 years the "reward" you will either have: a shed, a divorce or a method of reporting concepts such as "cost" and "price" that will fit you for a job as a government economist.


We need a "quote of the year" contest. That's just damn brilliant.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Ok, with the input of wiser folk than I, the trip to Bella Barista has become a lot more constructive and potentially interesting.

List of machines in £2k budget range to check out and pull shot from - Verona, R58, Duetto IV, Profitec 700 and Orchestrale Nota (the HX challenger!).

Anyone got any views on the ECM Tecknika IV? HX machine too like the Nota and gets good reviews.

Also got a list of accessories to sort out too. What are the key accessories I should focus on getting? I am thinking a good tamper is key but that might be just a myth I have built up in my head.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

I'd agree tamper is very important and I think most people on here are relatively in agreement that the tamper should fill as much of the basket as possible. So depending on basket type you might be aiming for a 58.4 or 58.5 ish size of tamper. I haven't really checked for a while what Bella Barista have but I think it's one of the few things that you might be better to get elsewhere - unless they've updated the range recently


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Tamper is a luxury, you can spend loads but it shouldn't make much difference, deffo scales that read at least 0.1g, timer is good to keep an eye on things but these two can be purchased cheap from ebay, would suggest decent baskets and shower screen, think BB sell IMS range.

You have the grinder in place, the machine will be there in a few days so the only major factor is fresh beans, rested, get 1kg of something because you will be playing a lot and you dont need to be swapping beans around..

Have fun!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Welcome to the asylum! What differentiates one machine from another. Certainly HX, with or without thermosyphon, dual boiler but perhaps the easiest thing is the group. I am sure your reading will have told you all about the E61 grouped. As a generalisation, I think you can expect one E61 machine to to behave and produce a very similar cuppa to the next one. They mostly share the same square box like good looks. This is worth a look ta, not because the Nota comes out well but to make you think about and question exactly what you are buying. Youtube has loads of vids, some good, some bad on coffee machines so have a look there but just remember, if they are selling it, then the review will always be positive


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> I am sure your reading will have told you all about the E61 grouped. As a generalisation, I think you can expect one E61 machine to to behave and produce a very similar cuppa to the next one. They mostly share the same square box like good looks. This is worth a look ta, not because the Nota comes out well but to make you think about and question exactly what you are buying. Youtube has loads of vids, some good, some bad on coffee machines so have a look there but just remember, if they are selling it, then the review will always be positive


Interesting coincidence - I watched this vid last night as I did some research on each machine you "wise sages of brew" recommended get added to the test list. Even more coincidentally, I was in Melbourne 3 weeks ago and went to the Dolo shop that Andrea works in (guy in the video) to check out machinery for my current quest into the espressosphere - the coffee world is a very small one!

I totally agree with your thinking on any machine with a E61 group head. Yes there are variants but the standard E61 head sets the pace in terms of shot extraction capability. It then comes down to usage characteristics (stability of machine temps and usability that suits you as a coffee brewer), aesthetics you like and then some of the frilly extras that sound good from the salesman.

So buying criteria (for me) for the test:

1. E61 Group Set (given!) within the budget range

2. Temp and brew characteristics of machine (also characteristics of the lever actuation of the brew i.e. pre-infusion capabilities and mechanism)

3. Engineering - ease of maintenance (drains, access and cleaning), quality of componentry, design and chassis, ease of use to fill/clean water tank, capacity/usage of drip tray

4. Aesthetics - not as important to me as above - I would rather have a slightly ungainly machine that lasts 20 years than a beauty that lasts 5 (isn't that the argument for a BMW vs Alfa Romeo too! Maybe the Profitec is already presenting a solid Germanic rear-guard action here)

5. Size on counter top

I think @dfk41's earlier point about the obsession of coffee is becoming clearer!


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## Cooperman (Jun 2, 2013)

Personally, I'd say don't over analyse it, just get over to BB and see what appeals to you when you get 'hands-on'. I spent many hours over a 12 month period researching my purchase then set off to BB to buy a Rocket Cellini Evoluzione and a Zenith 65. Two hours later, I left with an ECM Mechanika and a Mazzer Mini E, both of which I think are fantastic and more than adequate for my level of proficiency. When upgraditis gets the better of me I shall splurge a load on a top end grinder, but they do tend to take up a lot of space, and whilst I have space I'm not sure wifey would like me converting the kitchen into a full on cafe. Since purchasing - 21 Dec, I remember it well - the bit I have really enjoyed is trying out new beans and the variety they offer. BB were very helpful BTW. Enjoy whatever you should decide to get ... and accept that you will most likely still drool over other kit in subsequent months!


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> Interesting coincidence - I watched this vid last night as I did some research on each machine you "wise sages of brew" recommended get added to the test list. Even more coincidentally, I was in Melbourne 3 weeks ago and went to the Dolo shop that Andrea works in (guy in the video) to check out machinery for my current quest into the espressosphere - the coffee world is a very small one!
> 
> I totally agree with your thinking on any machine with a E61 group head. Yes there are variants but the standard E61 head sets the pace in terms of shot extraction capability. It then comes down to usage characteristics (stability of machine temps and usability that suits you as a coffee brewer), aesthetics you like and then some of the frilly extras that sound good from the salesman.
> 
> ...


So it looks like you have done your research, outside of the "E61 box" though, you will have discounted the Londinium L1, I guess?

I think @dfk41 has owned both... Maybe he can chime in with why he moved on?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It is really difficult to put a logical explanation behind my switch away from levers. Ley's just say, I drank milk based drinks, often had to make several back to backs, since putting milk in that kind of did away with any taste advantage an espresso may have, I became tired of waiting for the chamber to empty through the group meaning I was constantly waiting and trying to avoid ports filter sneezes, and all for what?

I went back to a pump machine having had a Vesuvius and GS3 briefly and it was like a duck returning to water.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

oursus said:


> So it looks like you have done your research, outside of the "E61 box" though, you will have discounted the Londinium L1, I guess?


A very good question but one that I probably discounted early on for a couple reasons.

1. Lever machines require an additional level of skill to perfect extraction that probably goes beyond the purely scientific/culinary practice and into requiring actual physical prowess and delicacy for the "plunge of the lever". There are just a lot more variables to account for (depending on the type of lever machine). As a musician of 30 years, it has taken me this long to get good at playing a Tuba, learning to "play" a coffee machine in the same way is a little more than I intended even if the results can be amazing - as dfk41 alludes to, with milk based drinks, this gain is probably neutralised.

2. I would like my wife to be able to make a coffee if she fancies and so a lever machine would quite simply put pay to this ambition in one go!

However, as Cooperman mentions above, you start to get the upgrade twitch soon enough regardless of the machine you currently own, so I may well change my mind in the future and decide to go OldSkool!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

froggystyle said:


> Tamper is a luxury, you can spend loads but it shouldn't make much difference, deffo scales that read at least 0.1g, timer is good to keep an eye on things but these two can be purchased cheap from ebay, would suggest decent baskets and shower screen, think BB sell IMS range.


Combined scales and extraction time - yes please Brewista! Two in one - anyone use this at the moment?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

dfk41 said:


> It is really difficult to put a logical explanation behind my switch away from levers. Ley's just say, I drank milk based drinks, often had to make several back to backs, since putting milk in that kind of did away with any taste advantage an espresso may have, I became tired of waiting for the chamber to empty through the group meaning I was constantly waiting and trying to avoid ports filter sneezes, and all for what?
> 
> I went back to a pump machine having had a Vesuvius and GS3 briefly and it was like a duck returning to water.[/
> 
> ...


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> Combined scales and extraction time - yes please Brewista! Two in one - anyone use this at the moment?


Yup, well worth it


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

QUOTE]

Yeah, I hear you on all of that... I keep tasting the most incredible espressos from a Victoria Arduino Athena is all... Like a frickin itch I can't scratch 

I take it the other two were just not that much improvement for the extra?

I was firmly in the lever camp. I had sold my L1 and was waiting for the arrival of the Quickmill Veloce. The GS3 and the Vesuvius I bought for stupid money so they were never going to stay. The GS3 was nice in as much as you owned something everyone seems to want. The Vesuvius is good if you want to experiment. Me, I wanted to make coffee without a drama and right now, I do that on my Nota. Cannot see me getting rid of it anytime soon.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

oursus said:


> Depending on how fast the "learning curve" is, within 3 years the "reward" you will either have: a shed, a divorce or a method of reporting concepts such as "cost" and "price" that will fit you for a job as a government economist.





oursus said:


> Yeah, I hear you on all of that... I keep tasting the most incredible espressos from a Victoria Arduino Athena is all... Like a frickin itch I can't scratch


I think I refer you to your earlier comments regarding the beauty and capability of the Victoria Arduino Athena. That is probably my "shed, divorce and economic outlook reappraisal" machine! Maybe a unicorn for me at the moment in the espressosphere ....


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## ChrisQP09 (Apr 6, 2016)

Some really informative posts here. Great read.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

OK folks, today is the day! Will be venturing north to Bella Barista for the machine test and hopefully purchase. Have got my list of machines to view and test, list of accessories to buy and a reminder of the key things to look for. I will drop a note in later on (with pictures) outlining the experience and outcomes









*Question* *for those who have owned their machines one year or longer* - other than the ability to crank out a great shot, what is the one feature you have come to love about your machine over time and usage (and name the machine too)?


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Can't name just one thing about the Quickmill Verona I love, I love everything about it from an operational stance and aesthetics.

If pushed I'd say the time it takes to reach temp, 5 mins is the norm.

*****Quick Mill Verona*****

*****Bassilia RR55 soon to be Mythos*****


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jason1wood said:


> Can't name just one thing about the Quickmill Verona I love, I love everything about it from an operational stance and aesthetics.
> 
> If pushed I'd say the time it takes to reach temp, 5 mins is the norm.
> 
> ...


Boiler temp or group temp ?

How are u getting an e61 up to speed in 5 minutes ?


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Boiler on PID then give the head a quick flush.

*****Quick Mill Verona*****

*****Bassilia RR55 soon to be Mythos*****


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

... Do you guys ever sleep?

Good luck @rcoltz







. Keen to read the outcome of a visit to BB.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jason1wood said:


> Boiler on PID then give the head a quick flush.
> 
> *****Quick Mill Verona*****
> 
> *****Bassilia RR55 soon to be Mythos*****


Define quick flush ? I can't see anything in the machine that would make its warm up time quicker than any other e61 with a pid ... ( like the Vesuvius ) . I would be careful of claiming this as an active feature of a machine .

I would need to flauah a lot of water thro my e61 to get it up to temp in 5 minutes.

There is nothing as an active heater in the group to get the group up to temp ( like a sage ) .


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

PPapa said:


> ... Do you guys ever sleep?
> 
> Good luck @rcoltz
> 
> ...


Me too. I dreamt about it the other night. One day I will get there, with my pockets stuffed with cash!

As for sleep- it's for wimps.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway - shot timer on the machine is a really nice feature to have .


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

PPapa said:


> ... Do you guys ever sleep?
> 
> Good luck @rcoltz
> 
> ...


Waiting for a late bus


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Boiler temp or group temp ?
> 
> How are u getting an e61 up to speed in 5 minutes ?


I've never been able to get an e61 group up to temp in less than 25 mins with several flushes.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

PPapa said:


> ... Do you guys ever sleep?


You can now seem my need for a superior coffee machine at home! I work most of week across ANZ office hours so it is normally an early morning start.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

urbanbumpkin said:


> I've never been able to get an e61 group up to temp in less than 25 mins with several flushes.


Sorry guys just been going off the PID on the machine, it heats up to 94degs in around 5 mins, not saying that's the group but I tend to flush a couple of times then pour my first eapresso and never have any problems.


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Wrap a tea towel round the group if your in a rush, although 5 minutes is a little optimistic...

Timer, problem solved.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jason1wood said:


> Sorry guys just been going off the PID on the machine, it heats up to 94degs in around 5 mins, not saying that's the group but I tend to flush a couple of times then pour my first eapresso and never have any problems.


Thanks for the update . Great that you find it useable but it won't be close to the brew temp of a 20/30 minute warm up . There is a lot of metal in there they needs to get up to temp .


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Thanks for the update . Great that you find it useable but it won't be close to the brew temp of a 20/30 minute warm up . There is a lot of metal in there they needs to get up to temp .


Yeah I know what you're saying and still pretty green behind the ears but at 7am, any form of caffeine is good.

I usually leave it on all day at the weekends and I only have a quick espresso during week days before work.

Sorry for any confusion but did think it was at full temp, my mistake.

I do know that Daveuk advised it was a really quick warm up.

As I did buy the same machine he did the review on BB.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jason1wood said:


> Yeah I know what you're saying and still pretty green behind the ears but at 7am, any form of caffeine is good.
> 
> I usually leave it on all day at the weekends and I only have a quick espresso during week days before work.
> 
> ...


Jason, just buy a Wemo plug and then you can switch it on with a set pattern allowing it to heat up properly or if you know you are popping home, switch it on en route!


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Yeah David been thinking about that, we are moving soon and Susan is redoing the apartment out and we've decided on the Lightwaverf sockets that act like a wemo but are a full controllable 2g socket.

*****Quick Mill Verona*****

*****Bassilia RR55 soon to be Mythos*****


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> just buy a Wemo plug and then you can switch it on with a set pattern allowing it to heat up properly or if you know you are popping home, switch it on en route!


I already have a wifi smart plug with app ready to go to run a 7 day pattern of machine activation. Just need to think about tank filling regime every evening! Damn it, I should really consider plumbing the bugger in!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

... am preparing my thinking for my brewing process and measuring and monitoring each shot brewed ready from when the new machine hits the counter (especially with the need to dial the grinder/beans in).

*Question* - Is anyone using a Brewing app at the moment on their computer/tablet/phone that they can input grind calibration, ground weight, extraction weight and time, taste/look/crema notes?

I see that there is one by Brewmaster but would like to get a view from the espressosphere diaspora? Will hopefully stop me touching excel to create a spreadsheet


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> I think I refer you to your earlier comments re ...Maybe a unicorn for me at the moment in the espressosphere ....


That's kind of why I wanted to throw the L1 into the mix there, your budget would buy you one & the quickmill veloce that BB stock is half your budget .

From what I know, producing a reasonable shot really ain't that much more of a challenge, when dealing with these higher end machines - the L1 in particular has been praised for its "first shot" performance


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

@Jason1wood

Jump to 5 mins 12 secs into this video and you might be surprised just how quickly some machines can reach the required brew temperature. Sure, most of us will, when possible, ideally allow our machines longer to really get the group head nicely heated up but if you're up against the clock, it can be done in less time that 30-40 mins that most people opt for.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

DoubleShot said:


> @Jason1wood
> 
> Jump to 5 mins 12 secs into this video and you might be surprised just how quickly some machines can reach the required brew temperature. Sure, most of us will, when possible, ideally allow our machines longer to really get the group head nicely heated up but if you're up against the clock, it can be done in less time that 30-40 mins that most people opt for.


Jason, there is a difference between the boiler coming to press and the group head coming to temp. You have to let the boiler hit pressure then pull about two litres through the group in 500 ml bursts to warm the group up, otherwise your shots are not going to be right, theoretically anyway!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

That Nota of yours dfk41 sure gets the thumbs up in that video. Seems a well designed HX machine by all accounts. I like how the name on the machine is backlit...slick!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Not everyones taste but I like the design and the sign thing is kinda groovy.......that said, I am 58. Where are my slippers and cardigan?


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

OK folks,

Just got back from Bella Barista and now have a very tasty selection of bags and a big box ready to be setup in the kitchen.









So before I reveal the final selection, here's the low down on the process I went through.









Bella Barista is quite a daunting place for the coffee Initiate but most likely a haven of coffee porn for a brewing Sage. I received a lovely welcome from all the team there and Claudette and I quickly got into the discussion regarding which machine.

I have to say thank you to all the guys at Bella Barista - what an amazing, thought provoking and deeply informative afternoon with a successful selection at the end and one happy fella in the car all the way back round the M25 in the traffic!

*
Part One - Isolate the key requirements from your coffee objectives*

We immediately discussed what I wanted from my coffee experience going forward and what did I want to achieve with my choice of machine. I am a big fan of single origin beans as well as blends and like both the purity of espresso and the comfort of a flat white so I need a machine with a fair amount of flexibility in settings to delve out and experiment across the sweet, sour and bitter flavours that coffee beans can offer. This was a great starting point and really helped me focus my needs and make a clear differentiation across the machines I had on my list to review.

We then did a taste test to illustrate the flavour differences that come from the pre, mid and end infusion from an E61 group head machine and concluded that I would ideally like to maximise the flexibility I could deliver from a machine with stability, consistency and as part of this temperature adjustment was a vital element to my requirements. It was clear that most of these E61 machines will hit the target but what else needs to be accounted for.

Then we got very technical. As I am an ex-industrial boiler engineer we started to talk pressure profiles between machines from the basic vibration pump machine, a rotary pump E61 machine, a lever machine and a pressure profiling-type machines. Claudette drew a wonderful graph with the various profiles on it which took me back 18 years to my Sankey/Hancock Boiler Commissioning test days in factories! From it, I discovered the impact that the pressure profile of a machine can have on extraction and what I want to pull from the beans. This again tightened my focus a little more on the machine list even before I had pulled a level or filled a portafilter.

So from this discussion and a few shots slurped from a machine or two I got a clear picture of my needs and wants from a machine.

Next part, time to talk machines!!!!!!


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Show us!!!!!!!

*****Quick Mill Verona*****

*****Bassilia RR55 soon to be Mythos*****


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Is that Vesuvius... Or R60V?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

*Part Two - time to talk machines*

*
*








*"Caffeine-fueled Porn!"*

Now we had confirmed my requirements, we then walked down the list of machines I had pulled together from my research and the kind recommendations from the Kings of Crema on this very forum!

From the discussion had previously and shots pulled, it was clear that any machine with an E61 group head would be an excellent choice; heat exchanger, dual boiler or lever alike. So for those out there about to make this dive into the next level of the espressosphere, worry yee not dear friends, E61 is a quality standard and benchmark that carries across machines. I recommend you just pick an E61 group head up and feel the weight, check out the lever system and then feel how warm a fully primed head is on the machine. That is the standard for all of these machine regardless of the gubbins behind it!

But of course, what will define the final decision will be what adds to this high level of standard, the "gubbins" per se whether in terms of functionality (what can you adjust), convenience (time to heat up, stability of temp, refresh speed etc) aesthetic (looks, feel, ergonomics etc), build quality (chassis, solidity especially group head flex on frontplate) and maintainability (boiler drainage mechanics, ease of access to under the bonnet etc).

I apologise up front for referring to these machines as ladies however I cannot believe that objects of such beauty and capability could be defined as male. We ain't that good fellas! I will also be honest and say, my machine will be a lady and have a name so this premise underlines my take on the reviews below. I am sure there is a massive forum thread we could run on members machine names ;o)

So here is a break down of the machines, and what we discussed on each:

1. Izzo Alex Duetto IV

This is probably the big daddy benchmark dual boiler E61 and spoken of very highly in reviews both in shop and online. The 2 boilers are constructed of a mix of copper and brass which is very similar to the R58. An interesting shaped machine as it is quite squat and wide in comparison to the others on this test and surprisingly the distance between the drip tray and bottom of the portafilter spout is very short and looks very tight. This is due to the fact that the machine originates in Naples where the fashion is to drink short ristretto type shots in quite a medicinal fashion, so the need to wack a larger cup for a cappuccino under the portafilter was not considered important - interesting how local tastes impact design! You can alter the temperature of both boilers as well as a selection of settings including the offset. The thing is built like a Panzer Tank on steroids. I did come into this test with this as my target machine and I cannot say it disappointed in all considerations - a fair worthy maid she looks!

2. Quick Mill Verona

This again is a highly regarded machine review-wise with much written about the design collaboration that Bella Barista have had in converting the QM Vetrano (which is sold around the rest of the world) into their UK spec machine, the Verona. This includes making fixture and fitting changes under the hood, adding easy access drain valves to both boilers and access to the heating elements at the bottom of the machine and slightly altering the default pump pressure settings. It has a brass brew boiler (what they call "tasteless") and a copper steam boiler. The PID settings are quite unique on this machine and to my surprise and pleasure there is a new blue on black PID display unit (added at end of 2015) that now includes a shot timer (very much like the Profitec 700). For someone who is colourblind this is a welcome change as the red displays just do not look good to my eye! This again is a toothsome wench of tasteful proportions that fits the bill!

3. Rocket R58

This very tidy and petite lady is unique in the fact that she has a separate and detachable PID display that when removed makes the R58 a very uncluttered and natural object of beauty. Rocket is the one manufacturer who gets "brand" in a big way and has built the machine to stand out. The boilers, like the Duetto are or both copper and brass construction and you have the ability to vary both boiler temperatures and a multitude of other functions. A true delight to look at and equal to the others on test. The alluring Audrey Hepburn of the E61 world with the abilities but maybe a little more twinkle in the eye! She does not half call to you when you walk on by ....

4. Profitec 700

This was a recommended machine to look at from forum input and I have to say was my dark horse and the machine I most looked forward to seeing in the flesh. I was not disappointed, a real looker of symmetry and purpose of design which is not to be discounted as it provides the Germanic entry to this F1 grid of coffee chargers. With dual stainless steel boilers, to the purist who values unimpaired taste, this is probably the most clinical on paper yet adds all the key functionality of machines above yet also offers a PID display that times the shot. It just oozes fine breeding, quality build and style and really blew the field open in terms of my ultimate machine selection. Not so much a fair maid, more the defined confident debutante that does shine out in this Cotillion.

5. Orchestrale Nota

Yowser, yowser, yowser, I wanna boogie with you! The Nota is the dramatic disco Queen in this profusion of E61 talent which appeals in so many ways for its flamboyance, scale and beautiful build quality. Wide, tall, buxom yet so naturally simple you know immediately what to do. She is the Imelda Quirke (Commitments film tag - check it out!) in this line up and you cannot discount Imelda! This is probably the most volumetrically endowed heat exchanger machine you can buy in the prosumer market. With a copper/brass constructed boiler, she packs 3 litres of power which translates to great steam pressure and very solid brew temperature stability. Combined with a rotary pump this gives you the consistency in delivery. Where you see the biggest difference against the profusion of mechanics above is in the fact that she does not have the ability to vary temperature on the fly and because of the singular boiler, it is all or nothing with this machine. However, for most, I would see this covering every angle of their requirements thoroughly and you would have a machine that stands out in this field - just like Imelda!

6. Quick Mill Veloce

This was my first look and feel of a lever machine to judge whether I wanted to make a foray into this area and go further and hunt out the highly rated Londinium (which Bella Barista currently do not stock). This is an imposing machine which shouts at you with its vertically poised lever, "pull me if you dare!". So I took Grace as I called here (as in Grace Jones - the mega 80s quiff matching the upright lever stance) for a plunge around the room and was surprised by the control you could exert with the lever and the directness you felt to the process. I can fully envisage how the purist can sculpt a shot with this kind of machine and feel more in tune with the outcome. I guess the analogy is with a Porsche 911 and how connected this feels to the road via your commands. A lever machine connects you to the shot. The boiler is a large copper mix affair with plenty of capacity to keep the espresso shots coming, it is built beautifully and just feels like a very powerful beast. I think you would become not so much "Slave to the Rhythm" with this type of machine, and probably much more so with the rated Londinium and vaulted Victoria Arduino Athena affairs, but a complete "Slave to the Caffeine"!

For all these machines, they can be plumbed in or use their onboard reservoirs.

At this point we took a break to reflect, all the machines had been explored, toggles pushed, valves opened, drip trays removed and opened up, reviewed the extras and pulled a shot or two more.

Coming up - Part Three - the BIG decision!


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Doesnt look like a rocket box, im going Quick mill.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Hope it's a Verona. Won't be disappointed, well you won't be if it's any of those mentioned machines.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

If it was my money ... I think the Verona or nota if it really is as super sexy in the flesh ... More i read about the Verona the more it seems like the option for me


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Verona and Mythos, match made in heaven.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

*Part Three - The BIG decision!*

To this point, I had stuck with the advice of the cognoscenti on this forum to not make any decisions or find favour particularly in what I saw. Claudette had helped massively in this as she had not advocated or directed the conversations for or against any machine.

So now came the time to run the machine list against my requirements and get it down to at least 2 or 3 for a final selection. Here's the thinking in my head for shortlisting. I brought in my personal subjective preference based on what I knew, this is maybe different to others as their coffee drinking objectives may vary to my own. So here goes:

1. Izzo Alex Duetto IV

Now I see the machine in the flesh, I find the shape and size is not as I had anticipated but it has everything I need. The one minor down point I see is the short distance between the drip tray and spout of portafilta, very minor so not discounted yet - *shortlist it*

2. Quick Mill Verona

Having used the machine and seen it properly it has met all my expectations and the very big plus point is the new PID display both in terms of colour and the addition of the shot timer raises this machine up the list - *must take to shortlist*

3. Rocket R58

A beauty! It really does shine and is so neat. However I did find the amount of plastic used on the chassis under the drip tray surprising and once I had played through the settings, the separate PID would become an issue for me in the fact that I would probably not so readily explore the machine features for the sake of keeping the display and wire hidden. I am sorry to say this but the "R" I had dreamt of was not for me - *you're fired!*

4. Profitec 700

This machine truly is the surprise of the test and looks and feels every bit as good as the best here. The engineer in me says how can you find fault with anything on this machine against the others and I think I would have to run a side by side test with the best other machine to really determine a difference. For the puritan quality junkie in me and lover of the Germanic OCD attention to detail I spin my chair to this machine - *Ich bin eine Heidelberger!*

5. Orchestrale Nota

Imelda, Imelda, Imelda. Yes .... but no. If I did not have a desire to play with different beans (single origin) and blends, this would have been shortlisted. The simple fact is that I would like to vary the temperature of the brew by bean and do this relatively quickly. I do this already with my Aeropress coffee via a kettle with temperature settings. So the Nota only loses out on one element of key functionality, otherwise, Imelda you could have been mine - *you're out the band!*

6. Quick Mill Veloce

So the lever debate that I had so much wanted to embrace and fully understand, fell short in this consideration through two factors. First the pressure profile of a lever machine when considered did not potentially allow for a consistent push of pressure all the way to the end of the shot where I would like to pull those warm and sweet aspects from a coffee bean. I am sure it can be done for the accomplished but in this initial selection if was too much of a exploration against the consistent pressure through the end of the shot from the other semi-auto rotary pumped machines in this test. I am sure the lever purists can explain this is not the case and I am keen to listen and would think differently if not from my other deciding factor. Secondly, the sheer physicality of the lever machine will halt any chance my wife has of making coffee on my choice of machine from the start. She boxes in the feather-weight class and is not a lady of significant vertical presence (unlike the Grace Jones likeness I applied to the Veloce) and I know the lever machine will be a no no from the start. I do want to share this journey. - *you are too Old Skool Grace!*



*
*So in conclusion, we are down to 3 - the Duetto, the Verona and the Pro 700.

This was the point when I did one more take and look across them all and went off-piste and immediately removed the Duetto from the list. I cannot argue with the credentials and package, I just do not find the stance and organisation of the machine to my liking in the same way as the other two, and this is a minute point of differentiation, but one I could immediately make between the three.

What to choose - Verona or Pro 700?

I had not got either down as my original "hands-on-heart" final selection but in the flesh and from the look and feel I just find them both wholly engaging, would buy either and could live with both equally as well. I turned to Claudette at this point and asked, "which one would you go for?". She rolled her eyes and said she could not decide either.

*BUGGER! *


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Yep, im going verona!

Cant believe you dismissed the rocket, its a thing of beauty!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

froggystyle said:


> Cant believe you dismissed the rocket, its a thing of beauty!


I cannot disagree. I think I say it above. It is by far the most alluring machine on the market and has a wicked sparkle that makes it equivalent to the iPhone as coffee machines go. Trouble is, I ain't a thing of beauty or a lover of purely beauty before functional considerations. That is why my phone is probably a Samsung! In discussion with Claudette, we both mentioned the same problem. If the R is not totally level on the steam valve, it would annoy us! OCD .....


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

"this year I shall mostly be brewing espresso with a ..... Quick Mill Verona!"

















OK folks, so we have travelled far together - to the end of the known and perceived universe, Wellingborough!

Claudette and the folks at Bella Barista are immense and rather than adding to my overall spend, the advice from Claudette has saved me money and stopped me buying things that are otherwise not needed that if I had purchased online, I would have purchased!

Think before you go online and buy from a warehouse. Seeing, trying, testing, tasting, talking it through and then watching your machine be tested up to temp/pressure before purchase are all valuable and cost effective reasons to go to experts, BB in particular. It is also fun and surely one of the key points about coffee, it is a drink to be social over and share!

Why the Verona, I hear you ask?

In the end, I found the following small incremental points pushed the Verona above the Pro 700:


The new blue/black PID display with shot timer was a game changer for this this machine and I prefer its placement on the top right of the machine rather than down the bottom left on the Pro 700

The dual gauge really tickled and pleased the Industrial Boiler engineer in me and simplifies the look of the machine

We dug out all the supplied fixtures and fittings and the Verona's equipment stood out, especially the 2 portafilters balance and feel and the weight and size of the tamper

Finally, it is a very geek and OCD point, but I do like the way the rotary pump is setup in the Verona, vertically, the heater element access ports in the base of the chassis and the direct drain valves from the boilers - how sad am I! These elements all sat above the allure of double stainless steel boilers of the Pro 700


The Pro 700 is a great machine and I would be totally happy with it (as with all the machine tested even the Veloce!).

I will send out pictures of the new display as I dial in the grinder as the next phase of this journey.

I would appreciate your feedback on this process, the thinking, how you reached a similar decision regarding the purchase of your machine and any guidance you can provide on getting the best out the machine from this point. I am focused on getting used to the machine, letting it settle, bed in and build info in the PID.

Immediate next step - name machine, dial in the grinder, brew, brew, brew .....


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Fantastic choice.

I was swung the Verona way by our very own @DavecUK, I even bought the machine he done the review on. It's an amazing machine and I agree with the positioning of the pump.

Enjoy


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Did you buy the Mythos new from BB also?

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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Looks great, would move it away from the cooker though, imagine the mess after frying an egg!


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

risky said:


> Did you buy the Mythos new from BB also?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Second hand Mythos. They're built like tanks so will last a lifetime.


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Jason1wood said:


> Second hand Mythos. They're built like tanks so will last a lifetime.


Oh I know they'll last. I was just horrified at the idea of someone buying a new one for their house when they are so cheap second hand.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

froggystyle said:


> Looks great, would move it away from the cooker though, imagine the mess after frying an egg!


Depends how you fry your egg! ?

Agree but no other options on counter space. However we only use this side of cooker for steamers so it was never an issue before.

I don't think i have had a fried egg for 5 years now ..... mmmmmm egg butty!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Does anyone have any information regarding the new PID? I can't find any information regarding to this.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

PPapa said:


> Does anyone have any information regarding the new PID? I can't find any information regarding to this.


I will be picturing and videoing it over this weekend to indicate looks and capability and will share on the forum. My experience to date is that it looks different, it has the shot counter functionality added but the rest remains the same as old unit.

sent by magic by a luddite


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Incredible journey and you've shared tonnes of information about your Bella Barista visit, including photos (bonus points here!) and all within a week or so of becoming a member on this forum.

Bra...vo!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

PPapa said:


> Does anyone have any information regarding the new PID? I can't find any information regarding to this.


Here's a photo of the new PID in operation at Bella Barista yesterday.

















A massive positive change in colour and the shot timer operates exactly as the Pro 700 PID. Lift lever, timer starts. Once shot finished, the time stays on the screen for around 10 seconds (I will give you an accurate figure on this over the weekend).

Tasty ain't it. Quick Mill done good. Plus apparently the lifespan expectancy is far greater with the blue/black display rather than the old red one.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

The red one looked really cheap. I know the looks aren't the most important, but damn it's nearly £2k and some machines just look so bad. Not classic looks, just bad! Though it probably helps convincing SOs and what not that "nah, it's not that expensive".

Jealous and happy of your purchase at the same time.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Got the old red (really cheap one, according to @PPapa)









Would love the new style, looks great.


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

Jason1wood said:


> Got the old red (really cheap one, according to @PPapa)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't mean that. It might look cheap, but it does its job. In the end, it matters what is in the cup.

I'm a young person (especially considering the CFUK population), so I might be putting aesthetics a little bit higher in the list of priorities.

P.s. Excuse my immaturity, I'm just firing shots one after another







.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway what coffee are you brewing in it then.

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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

PPapa said:


> I didn't mean that. It might look cheap, but it does its job. In the end, it matters what is in the cup.
> 
> I'm a young person (especially considering the CFUK population), so I might be putting aesthetics a little bit higher in the list of priorities.
> 
> ...


It's fine mate.

I agree with you, wasn't really bothered by the red until I've seen the new PID. Haha


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> Anyway what coffee are you brewing in it then.


Good question.

I will be using a "control" blend first to get the grinder dialed in and the flavours building - Redber's Sweet Shop blend. If/once I hit the tunes on this, I have a very tasty Guatamalan Gautalan that I hope I can extract the high fruits and the very sweet end extraction (as I was shown to me by a barista in Melbourne @Back Pocket Cafe off La Trobe). If I can get both of these to work, the ultimate Sunday morning coffee will be used, a Panamanian Palmyra which goes beautifully in a flat white. Given I now have the power in the burn steam wand (selected this over the non-burn wand @BB yesterday) I should be able to texture ashphalt into a creditable flat white!

Roll on the weekend ....


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Great write up @rcoltz! Enjoy the new machine!

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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

This was a fascinating read to follow- thank you. Interesting what different people see as key criteria, and fab to get a feel for what looks to be a coffee wonderland!!


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

@rcoltz, is the other steam wand identical to the no burn? I had the no burn and just removed the silicone tube inside.

Just interested if there any difference to aesthetics.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

So have spent a couple hours this morning dialing in the machine ..... name still pending .... annoyingly "Bella" is skipping around my head.

I have learnt more about my grinder than the machine as Mazzer have put the finer/courser scale on wrong so i was dialling too fine rather than coarser which was frustrating.

Love the machine. She sings along and is so easy to keep clean. First burn logged with the steam wand!

Picture below of the final coffee of the session plus a video of the machines new PID display working whilst i backflush the machine (water only).















sent by magic by a luddite


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

More work going on to dial in the grinder, now have a single origin Guatemala Guatalon brewing 1oz in 25 seconds, single basket 8 grams of coffee. Tastes bloody marvellous! Video below.

PID display is excellent and makes dialling in the brew so much easier with the shot timer.

I think i could extract more with a 93 to 96 degree water temp so something to play with.

I am finding i am overly sympathetic to the beans with temperature so need to see what a hotter brew would deliver.

Any thoughts O Sages of Brew?

Dial in continues .......






sent by magic by a luddite


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Do you not weight in and out btw

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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> Do you not weight in and out btw
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You gotta weigh in and out.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

I weight in. At the moment i am not weighing out as i want to tune in via look of the brew stream and taste. Use the senses a little more at this point.

A barista in Melbourne (and Claudette at BB) gave me the advice not to become a slave to the method too much. Hone the brew with the senses. I am trying this first and then go scientificfully next to calibrate the senses.

I am also noting all info and variables down so i can refer back.

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

But you can't note all the variables if you don't record them all. Surely you're introducing an extra variable if not recording weight out.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ah your using the force









Never worked for me

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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

To fine tune, you need to know that you are in the ballpark.....someone is feeding you garbage.......maybe a trained Barista could use this method, but I know Claudette pretty well and the lady aint no barista!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Fully agree gents. Cannot disagree but one has to take a step by step approach. As i say before, i am starting with a good looking and tasting coffee within the basic parameters of grind, dose, tamp and brew and then hone it down to build the flavour profile further.

There is too much variability in my tamp at the moment to truly seek a baseline, this is where the practise is going at the moment.

sent by magic by a luddite


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

to take it a stage further, it is virtually impossible to produce the same cuppa two shots in a row, because of the variables, including density of bean, humidity, grind particle size to name a few. Therefore, if you weigh in then weigh out, you have a starting point, a tangible record of where your shot it each time you pull one, allowing you make incremental changes that go towards making the next shot better.....or thats how I think it works!


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

You are already measuring by volume, measuring by weight is considered to be more accurate... So why not just ignore the volume and substitute that with the weight?


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> to take it a stage further, it is virtually impossible to produce the same cuppa two shots in a row, because of the variables, including density of bean, humidity, grind particle size to name a few. Therefore, if you weigh in then weigh out, you have a starting point, a tangible record of where your shot it each time you pull one, allowing you make incremental changes that go towards making the next shot better.....or thats how I think it works!


You have confirmed where my mind was at! At the moment the excitement is in making significantly tasty espresso!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

When I was cooking for a living, I had a timer in my head for every dish on the menu, could tell you how a steak was cooked by the curvature on the surface, (or how it felt) smell when pies were baked from the other side of a kitchen & tell you when rice was ready by the sound... The first time I pulled an espresso was 31 yrs ago (immediately banned from the machine) I know people who can dose within a quarter gram by eye, & if I was pulling a hundred shots a day, I probably would myself, but I'm not, so I use brewistas - volume will vary - weight is for pros

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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

And to be a total hypocrite - the shot in the video looked a little fast & irregular to me, do you normally pull singles? (I find them and absolute **** to get right)

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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

I did think the pour started very early. I may be way off but mine always start at around 5/6 secs


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have similar machines, and I find 5or 6 seconds to be about the right start point leaving anything from 20 to 25 seconds (or so) for the expected weight of shot to pour


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Interesting, I thought anything less than 8-10 secs until first sign of espresso through my open double spouts was too quick. Most of my double shots take 10-12 secs and reach a ratio of 1:2, usually 36g out in circa 30 - 32secs.

Maybe I'm tamping too hard?


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

oursus said:


> And to be a total hypocrite - the shot in the video looked a little fast & irregular to me, do you normally pull singles? (I find them and absolute **** to get right)
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


No hypocracy considered. I completely agree, it was fast and yes i have started with the single shot basket for the exact reason it is more difficult. I am a glutton for punishment and would like to get a result on the single before trying the double.

My approach at the moment is very methodical step by step.

The shot tasted slightly on the fruity side of the taste spectrum and lacked a touch more depth that i would like to dig out of the end of the extract. Am going a notch finer on the grind and matching the tamp for the next one.

All you comments are really helpful so o will keep sharing the results and you can commentate!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> to take it a stage further, it is virtually impossible to produce the same cuppa two shots in a row, because of the variables, including density of bean, humidity, grind particle size to name a few. Therefore, if you weigh in then weigh out, you have a starting point, a tangible record of where your shot it each time you pull one, allowing you make incremental changes that go towards making the next shot better.....or thats how I think it works!


Totally agree - and when dfk and I agree it is almost definitely the absolute truth.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Jon said:


> Totally agree - and when dfk and I agree it is almost definitely the absolute truth.


If me you and Dfk agree then that only leaves one of the four horseman left to arrive


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Mrboots2u said:


> If me you and Dfk agree then that only leaves one of the four horseman left to arrive


Who is he?


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Mrboots2u said:


> If me you and Dfk agree then that only leaves one of the four horseman left to arrive


Blimey, so who is the Pale Rider then?

sent by magic by a luddite


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

So is that the 4 horsemen of the espressosphere? The Red Bean, the White Bean and the Pale Bean. There's a cracking stand up routine in this somewhere.

sent by magic by a luddite


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

And the Black Bean of course!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

rcoltz said:


> Blimey, so who is the Pale Rider then?
> 
> sent by magic by a luddite


Just weigh out (or tell us you are) and save us all the badgering.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Ah ha, now there's the Black Bean! Brewista scale has been ordered for arrival on Monday. Will use crap kitchen digitals for tome being.

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

So you'll be the green bean then?!?!? Haha


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Jason1wood said:


> So you'll be the green bean then?!?!? Haha


Defo! Never has a truer word been said in jest!!!

There has been none geener. 

sent by magic by a luddite


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Ok, so results from the discourse yesterday have proved fruitful.

Grind now 3 notches finer, single basket, tamp method/pressure standardised, weigh in 8g, weigh out at 28g, shot starts to pour at 5 secs and shot weight tops out at 27 seconds. Looks slower, more consistent and the taste has sweetened a lot to give a very good full bodied flavour.

Will record and video once the brewista scales arrive as the crap kitchen scales are quite ungainly.

The 4 horsemen of the espressosphere ride on - hi ho crema!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Jason1wood said:


> @rcoltz, is the other steam wand identical to the no burn? I had the no burn and just removed the silicone tube inside.
> 
> Just interested if there any difference to aesthetics.


The no burn wand is identical to the burn one except no rubber guard on the pipe crook. Same 2 hole tip and exactly same diameter.

Glad i went with the burn one from the off, it could steam a bucket of set concrete into microfoam!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

weigh in 8g, weigh out at 28g

The usual standard to start from, would be to extract dry weight plus 60%. 28 out of 8 is way too much. 10 gms plus 60% for example is 16 gms.

Throw away the single basket. You are giving yourself a mountain to learn trying to master it. Get the double basket out and if you dose in 16 gms, 26 out will be a good place o start one tuning in


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If the guy is using a lighter single origin then the brew ratio might need to be a different to 1:1.6 to be fair.....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> If the guy is using a lighter single origin then the brew ratio might need to be a different to 1:1.6 to be fair.....


agreed but I get the impression that he is starting out with complete new kit. He can fine tune once he gets into the ballpark, but 28 gms from 8 gms in, he is in China and wants to be in France! If he ditches the singe and starts off dosing 16 gms in and gets 26 out in 25 to 30 seconds he can tinker away using taste buds till the cows come home


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

dfk41 said:


> 28 out of 8 is way too much.


If the TDS was 5.5% it might be a super tasty Lungo


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

garydyke1 said:


> If the TDS was 5.5% it might be a super tasty Lungo


If he had a refractometer to measure it, you may well be right!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> he is in China and wants to be in France!


Not a fan of French coffee so not aiming for there. Maybe Italy will do.

Good guidance on the double basket and dosing. All useful parameters to work from.

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

rcoltz said:


> The no burn wand is identical to the burn one except no rubber guard on the pipe crook. Same 2 hole tip and exactly same diameter.
> 
> Glad i went with the burn one from the off, it could steam a bucket of set concrete into microfoam!
> 
> sent by magic by a luddite


Thanks mate, yeah when I removed the silicone interior pipe, it made a massive difference.

I've since gone for a 4 hole tip and that's even better.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> Get the double basket out and if you dose in 16 gms, 26 out will be a good place o start one tuning in












Tonight i shall be trying to match the advisory from the thread over weekend. Now got the tools all sorted, now to try to move from China to closer homeyd

I have to say though, if i am in China, the coffee has been very good so far!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

Don't get them wet.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Jon said:


> Don't get them wet.


You don' need to worry about getting them wet - they repel water apparently! 

You must be pretty special to repel such a plentiful earth resource.

On the plus side, they do have a silicone seal on the battery slot and the instructions give you the indication that you can clean them off liberally in water. They are rather natty and feel very well built. They even provide the dinkiest Philips head screwdriver i have ever seen to open up the battery slot.

But not going to test it too much though....

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

There's been quite a lot of discussion on the forum about the magical repellent powers of these scales. Some seem to have the magic worn off before they open the box.

All metal/plastic presumably repels water. Problem is that in some cases it repels it and channels it inside where it drowns the elves that count the heaviness.


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> On the plus side, they do have a silicone seal on the battery slot and the instructions give you the indication that you can clean them off liberally in water. They are rather natty and feel very well built. They even provide the dinkiest Philips head screwdriver i have ever seen to open up the battery slot.
> 
> But not going to test it too much though....


Yeah enough people have established that they don't really like liquid as much as they claim, to be sure that it's not worth risking too much. A slightly damp cloth is sufficient but also if they stop working then opening them up and leaving them to dry for a while seems to have favourable results. I still think they're good though.


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

You do have to worry. Trust me. I've lost one set already.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Jon said:


> You do have to worry. Trust me. I've lost one set already.


Requirement for care duly noted guys - thank you. Was rather cynical of the claims, especially when sat under a source of 90 plus degree water!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

dfk41 said:


> ..... dose in 16 gms, 26 out will be a good place o start one tuning in


Double basket used and instructions followed, instant results. Consistent 26 second extracts.

Spot on, an excellent starting point and solid advice.

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

rcoltz said:


> Double basket used and instructions followed, instant results. Consistent 26 second extracts.
> 
> Spot on, an excellent starting point and solid advice.
> 
> sent by magic by a luddite


You know the 26 dfk mentions is grams not seconds right?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jon said:


> You know the 26 dfk mentions is grams not seconds right?


 suggested 16 in, 26 out in anything from 25 to 30 seconds, just for clarity! This will produce a ballpark in which the OP can fine-tune as much as he likes!


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

dfk41 said:


> suggested 16 in, 26 out in anything from 25 to 30 seconds, just for clarity! This will produce a ballpark in which the OP can fine-tune as much as he likes!


Wasn't sure if he was weighing out and the 26s time was coincidental - or if he was still resisting the weighing out!


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

Jon said:


> Wasn't sure if he was weighing out and the 26s time was coincidental - or if he was still resisting the weighing out!


Maybe he's a woman. I've been resisting weighing out for a looooong time. If anyone asks im 8st3 plus a few cakes.... Mind I'm getting to the point of lying about extraction time too...


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

He's toed the party line & bought the brewistas, there may need to be a home inspection to confirm regulatory compliance

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

oursus said:


> He's toed the party line & bought the brewistas, there may need to be a home inspection to confirm regulatory compliance
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


What's the penalty for non compliance?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Jon said:


> What's the penalty for non compliance?


A kilo of lavazza


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

oursus said:


> A kilo of lavazza


Pre ground?


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Jon said:


> Pre ground?


For minor infractions, more serious ones would qualify for whole bean & loan of a blade grinder...


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

oursus said:


> For minor infractions, more serious ones would qualify for whole bean & loan of a blade grinder...


Nasty business.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Jon said:


> Nasty business.


More of a deterrent this one, having problems imagining a crime against the espresso caliphate that will merit the more draconian measure


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

oursus said:


> More of a deterrent this one, having problems imagining a crime against the espresso caliphate that will merit the more draconian measure


Erm. I've tasted plenty crimes.


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

Jon said:


> Erm. I've tasted plenty crimes.


Ahem *shifty look*...you seen the news about dodgy Dave Cameron then


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Jon said:


> You know the 26 dfk mentions is grams not seconds right?


Yep. Shot time is matching the grammage at the moment.

sent by magic by a luddite


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## Jon (Dec 3, 2010)

rcoltz said:


> Yep. Shot time is matching the grammage at the moment.
> 
> sent by magic by a luddite


You've dodged a kilo of lavazza. You lucky thing.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Missy said:


> Maybe he's a woman. I've been resisting weighing out for a looooong time. If anyone asks im 8st3 plus a few cakes.... Mind I'm getting to the point of lying about extraction time too...


Get a fitbit and the posh weighing scale. Cannot lie then!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## PPapa (Oct 24, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> Get a fitbit and the posh weighing scale. Cannot lie then!
> 
> sent by magic by a luddite


Hand grinding for a single brew logs about 200 steps!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

In the Lavazza Caliphate is a draconian measure one in US fluid ounces? 

sent by magic by a luddite


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> In the Lavazza Caliphate is a draconian measure one in US fluid ounces?
> 
> sent by magic by a luddite


It's a little misleading, like lightyears... A little known fact, but the unending afternoon spent chasing your tail dialling in crap beans with a crap grinder, is actually where the proof for relativity came from


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

rcoltz said:


> Requirement for care duly noted guys - thank you. Was rather cynical of the claims, especially when sat under a source of 90 plus degree water!
> 
> sent by magic by a luddite


They are fine under the group. I would careful about cleaning them under the tap.


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## BigEasy (Mar 26, 2016)

Great detailed review of the machines and your trip to BB @rcoltz - thanks very much. Really interesting read.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

So, having had the Verona for a full week now I can happily state for the record that the machine has very much lived up to my expectations and I know I have not even started to push the envelope using its full capabilities. It also makes the kitchen look cooler and even my wife has commented that it is "not as ugly" as she first thought it would be - just think if I had bought a lever machine missus!

I will also state that I think the results I have seen (and tasted







) and the progress made in my own home coffee making could easily be achieved with any E61 based machine, whether HX or dual boiler. Where the dual boiler makes the most difference to me is in the speed and usability of the machine when making multiple coffees for the series of random friends who turn up upon hearing you have a new coffee machine installed and heated!

1st Week Observations:


How quiet is a rotary pump ... whisper quiet it is. My overriding first impression of the Verona was how quiet it is. In comparison to the old Delonghi Vibration pump setup, the Verona shimmers in the art of dispensing the water whereas the Delonghi would dispense water like a jack hammer attached to a drum kit.

How easy it is to clean ... with every surface mirror and chrome finished I was expecting the Verona to be a battle to keep clean - not so! Using a tea towel and microban cloth a couple good rubs after usage and the whole machine is back to gleaming.

Drip tray capacity ... deep enough for a good session of 6 to 10 shots and milk steams including a head rinse and pf flush with each cup and the post session back flush and clean up - excellent!

Heat up time ... for the steam boiler I estimate the average is 4 mins to temp to allow steaming, for the brew boiler it seems to hit consistent temp and the E61 achieves a good warmth after 20-25 mins. It means I have to rethink prep for a coffee but the warming process means far less water is used in priming the head and pf so it is nothing but efficient with the old 1961 technology.

Maintenance post usage ... I was worried that I would get rather tired of the increase maintenance required for a machine of this quality but I did not need to worry - water only back flushing is simple (especially as I now keep the blank basket in one of the pf handles permanently ready to go), regular rinsing of the head between shots is a simple task and a quick brush of the group and gasket is achieved in a minute at the end of each usage. I am sure the less regular maintenance will be more of a task such as chemical backflushing and descaling, however I am using well filtered water and this should reduce the need for this as a preventative measure (as I am warned that any use of chemicals on the group head is BAD!).

Water tank access and filling ... on the Verona, there is a separate access hatch at the back for filling up the reservoir tank which I am so glad I made part of my buying criteria as you do blast through water in a bean/grinder dial in session and easy filling is essential. It is also easy to empty the tank at the end of each day to dispel the stale water concerns.

New display ... I am still loving the new blue/black display on the Verona, it looks the part, can be seen clearly from across the kitchen to check the temperatures and the shot timer is my new best friend (and enemy at times







).

Grinder/Bean dial in ... I started off finding this a very confusing place using the single basket and the wrong measures in and out. To ensure consistency and calibration of shot, my approach was on the textbook schoolboy side of amateur. After consultation of the Oracles of Caffeine (painful and direct it became, Lavazza punishment threatened!) and the purchase of a set of Brewista mini scales, things rapidly improved and performance balanced out using the double basket, 16g in and a 26g shot (weighed) out - making a 1:1.6 brewed ratio. I dialed this in on my favourite blend and then tried the same setting for a single origin Guatamalan and wack, nowt worked the same - back to dial in mode and notes taken! Learning - each bean grinds differently and then brews differently. So my view on the art of the barista has changed from being focused on the "ponce-based art of milk tossery" to the scientific/culinary art of priming the preparation of the bean to brew properly.

Write your settings down ... The above learnings for one week of the new machine has meant I have started to note everything down in coffee journal now placing each bean against its component settings to get the shot right. As I like to taste many types of bean, I am hoping this will mean I can set up quicker in the long run

Steam and the power to texture asphalt ... I had no comprehension of the difference of the steaming capabilities of the Verona versus a sub £500 machine however after a week and 2 good quality burns I now appreciate what can be achieved in getting a well textured milk prepped for a tasty flat white. I also met up with a mate who has worked in several high street coffee shop chains and now works in a roastery and he showed me that once the milk is steamed, how you "tap and swirl" it can also really improve the final pour (and allow for "ponce-based art of milk tossery"!). Discount the tap and swirl at your peril, it ain't all in the steam.


This week is going to be doing more of the same however I have a few questions to ask to the gathered Sages of the Espressosphere on the forum from the Week One:


Is there a way to speed up the process of dialing in the grind for a new bean?

How do members of the forum maintain info of bean and grinder settings?

What is the best practice weighed brew ratio for a Ristretto? I am thinking it is 16g in and 13g out (a half shot espresso)?


More to come ..... thank you to all the Sages, Caffeine Druids and Nerds of the Espressosphere for their inputs - there is a "How to" book in here somewhere as defined by the Coffee Forum!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you chop and change your beans, roast style you are always going to struggle with settings. Some people put stickers on their grinder or make a chart but grind setting can vary with humidity alone


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## oursus (Jun 5, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> Is there a way to speed up the process of dialing in the grind for a new bean?
> 
> How do members of the forum maintain info of bean and grinder settings?
> 
> ...


Glad you're getting to grips with the machine!

Ristretto: Granted, it's normally half a standard shot, but to be honest your 26g out is very short, you're probably already in ristretto country (comparatively sweeter, more intense)

Speed of dial-in: practice!

Grinder settings: okay so this goes for all of the above too; beans & the drink are not engineering, that ends at the group head; they are organic & so variable. You will find your reference points, which can be VASTLY accelerated by weighing in & out (which is why everyone was advising the scales) but some time and practice will be necessary. Keep a book with tasting notes & grind setting or something like baristas log app maybe( the shot timer doesn't work on that btw)? But you will need ultimately to dial in by taste. Nothing else matters


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I echo the practice .... One day you will open a new bag of coffee, look at it and just decide you need to dial back from 2.4 to 3.6 ..... And have a perfectly acceptable coffee ... With minor adjustment to make it exceptional .... That said you still get beans from time to time that make you think you need to upgrade your grinder of buy new burrs


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

h1udd said:


> .... That said you still get beans from time to time that make you think you need to upgrade your grinder of buy new burrs


This morning had a rather surprising eureka moment. Kicked off the brewing of some flat whites for some friends with a couple really poor shots off some excellent new Ethiopian beans. Was royally pissed off.

So disconnected the grinder and gave it a quick clean down with a bush and Screwee Dee. Then took the grinder right down to zero and re-calibrated the dial and grind step by step up. Turns out a good clean and the dial on the grinder was completely out.

In 20 mins i had the best shots i have ever brewed flying out the Verona! Lovely thick coffee streams off 16g of ground, 26g came out in 25 seconds. All friends we blown away with the flavour of the flat whites with the Ethiopian shot.

So learning this weekend is: keep your grinder in good working order. If you are having trouble with the grind for bean start with a clean - simples!

I can also report that the Verona maintains excellent brew temp and steam pressure for multiple drinks. 10 flat whites brewed this morning in a row done in pairs (2 separate shots with a screen cleanse between each and a steam of milk) did not even stress the Verona out. Superb!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> So disconnected the grinder and gave it a quick clean down with a bush and Screwee Dee.


What's Screwee Dee?

Don't judge me


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## Missy (Mar 9, 2016)

jlarkin said:


> What's Screwee Dee?
> 
> Don't judge me


Glad I'm not the only one.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

jlarkin said:


> What's Screwee Dee?
> 
> Don't judge me


Screwee Dee was the late younger brother of rapper Cool Mo Dee and used to be the warm up act for Chucky D and the boys of Public Enemy.

Otherwise a Screwee Dee is a Screwdriver!

sent by magic by a luddite


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

rcoltz said:


> Lovely thick coffee streams off 16g of ground, 26g came out in 25 seconds.


So it has been a few weeks now living a life under the extreme regime of the Caffeine Caliphate trying to force consistency in every shot brewed from the Verona.

My learnings based on the the extra few weeks practice:


Weigh in and weigh out really does push up consistency as well as a focus on regularity of technique

The mood that you are in does affect tamp pressure and therefore consistency - never be in a bad mood when brewing a shot!

26g shot weigh out on the shot for quite a few coffees is too short to get the longer brewed sweeter notes of the bean - I have mentally made this my Ristretto shot for now and now pull more like 35 to 40g shots as these do eek out the longer held sweet notes in the bean

I now have made cleaning an integral part of my brewing process as I go along - screen cleanse in particular

I realise I probably need a portafilter stand to equalise my tamping better

My Mazzer grinder has been seriously pushed through its grind settings and I have learnt a lot about how acurate you need to be to get a good result

The Verona's new PID display is brilliant - the integrated shot timer makes life wonderfully convenient

It still looks the business and now I am reappraising my espresso cups


Quick question to the amassed Grind Gurus - off 16g of coffee (or more if you dose higher in a double pf basket), what is your personal weigh out shot to maximise the flavour of the beans? I am keen to compare notes to aid experimentation?


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> Quick question to the amassed Grind Gurus - off 16g of coffee (or more if you dose higher in a double pf basket), what is your personal weigh out shot to maximise the flavour of the beans? I am keen to compare notes to aid experimentation?


Every bean is different. I start at 2:1 and work from there. Usually end up somewhere between 2:1 and 2.5:1 so that's 18g in and anywhere from 36 to 45 out.


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

risky said:


> Every bean is different. I start at 2:1 and work from there. Usually end up somewhere between 2:1 and 2.5:1 so that's 18g in and anywhere from 36 to 45 out.


Cheers Risky! Sound thinking.

Put it to the test this morning as I dialed in a new Ethiopian single origin bean (am working from home today!) and checked it out at my original 1.7:1 "ristretto" ratio and then took it up to 2.5:1 in stages, tasting each time. Worked a treat as the sweet spot for the shot seemed to be around 2.25:1. Then reverted back to my normal El Savadorian daily bean and performed the same test - more like a 2.5:1!

So it is worth the experimentation to find the best grind and then spot brew ratio. Now to update the Bean reference spreadsheet!


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

rcoltz said:


> So it is worth the experimentation to find the best grind and then spot brew ratio. Now to update the Bean reference spreadsheet!


Generally speaking you want to find the ratio first, then fine tune with the grind adjustment. Obviously you may need to adjust grind early on if the shot times are daftly fast or slow.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

A hockey puck makes a good tamper stand to level the pf while tamping. Height might vary slightly depending on specific pf design but they are very cheap and can get cool logos on them so may be worth a look.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Love my hockey puck, also keeps tamper away from stray water!!!


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## Markk (Apr 8, 2016)

Thanks for a really fun read regarding your machine buying selection.

I think I bought my Verona, also from Bella Barista, around the same time as you, maybe even the same day (April 7) ? I was with Marko but I noticed someone scrutinizing duel boiler machines with Claudette that afternoon.

I had more or less the same short list as you although I was not considering a heat exchanger machine as I've been using a dual boiler (Expobar Brewtus) for nearly ten years and am used to that type of system. I'd ruled out the Alex because of the shallow clearance under the group head. I have some experience with the R58 and although it's a beautiful machine I am not too keen on the external control unit (just personal preference). So I was down to choosing between the Verona and the Profitec 700. In the end it was the little things and attention to detail that swayed me to the Verona. Things like the fill hatch for the water reservoir, the ease of plumbing in for the drip tray, the layout of the pump and motor and the lovely big double pressure gauge.

I was rather keen on the stainless steel boilers in the Profitec but concerned about the use of coated steel, instead of stainless, in the base plate of the machine. Interestingly I was chatting to Jordan, while he was testing my machine before I took it away, and the subject of the boiler materials came up. He said that he was pretty sure that the Quick Mill had switched to Stainless Steel for the boilers on the newer Veronas. We had a peer through a gap in the internal cover and the small amount of the top of the one boiler we could see certainly did look like Stainless. Obviously impossible to see the sides because of the insulation. I don't really want to open my machine up just to check that out.

Very very happy with my choice so far. It's an amazing machine.


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## gzim (Apr 13, 2016)

Great Thread! I've been following it from afar... I just received a varient of the Verona here in the US which is also a bit customized, which they sell as the Lucca M58.

I also really liked the idea of the stainless boilers in the Profitec 700, but read about some of the parts and pieces they use which are not quiet as good as those which go into the Quick Mills.

Here is a shot of my setup. It's still a work in progress, but thought I would share it with this like minded group. I am giving serious thought to adding a top end grinder... (maybe a Macap M7D in Chrome?) and using my Vario for Decaf which I enjoy in the afternoon...


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

Markk said:


> Very very happy with my choice so far. It's an amazing machine.


 @Markk - yep, that was me at Bella Barista dipping my toe in espressosphere shallow end. I fully agree with you summary of the selection process although you did come from a far higher starting point than I with your previous machine.

So far the Verona experience has been immense and rarely has the machine not been up to temp when I have been at home.

On the topic of bother materials, it is interesting to note the relative impact that people feel this has on flavour. Claudette and I discussed that quite a lot before trying any machines as each type of material has its followers and was why I mentioned this in my review of each machine.

I did consider the whole stainless steel potential benefits of the Profitec but in my criteria for purchase, this perfection was slightly less than the overall usability of the machine.

I am glad someone else is enjoying the Verona experience too!


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

gzim said:


> View attachment 20963


That is a very thoughtful piece of worktop design having a specific "tamping plinth" notch out to the right. I guess you would need to perfect some form of tamping flourish to really make the most of this ergonomic.


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## gzim (Apr 13, 2016)

rcoltz said:


> That is a very thoughtful piece of worktop design having a specific "tamping plinth" notch out to the right. I guess you would need to perfect some form of tamping flourish to really make the most of this ergonomic.


Actually there is no notch at all. I have not installed a smaller section of the counter top which continues along the right side of the room, so it is the only part of the countertop which is square (since we had a front edge profile which doesn't allow my corner tamping mat to sit right). In the near future the marble counter will continue, and I have also purchased a flat tamping mat and a new tamping stand too. I will post more photo's once I get it all installed. Also ordered a new grinder... but that will take 3-4 weeks to get.

Most important part, I am loving our new Espresso Machine! Hopefully the photo will better explain..


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## rcoltz (Apr 1, 2016)

gzim said:


> Actually there is no notch at all.


I would hold off extending the worktop and sell the idea of the "worktop tamping plinth" feature! Patent it!


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