# Deal section changes



## coldplayer (Oct 3, 2013)

I wish to register my disquiet at the changes to the posting rules, for the deals section of the forum.

There are 2 polar groups, with differing ideas of whom should benefit from posts in the Deals section. One group want to share information, on Ebay auctions, with all forum members, in an open way, giving all members the benefit of that information. The other group want to stop the sharing of this information, to the benefit of the few members who diligently scan Ebay auctions for potential bargains. From the debates that I have seen on the forum, the groups are of even(ish) numbers. Yet, the rules have been adjusted to benefit the few, at the potential expense of the many. Both parties also have a view of whether an Ebay auction constitutes a "deal" or not.

With an issue this divisive, wouldn't it have been fairer to open this issue to a forum member vote? This way, when the changes that have already been made, were done, all members would know that it was in accordance with the majority view, and as such beyond criticism.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Your disquiet has been noted and flagged up - a response will follow in due course.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

It has nothing to do with your accusation Coldplayer. I do not buy and sell coffee gear on eBay. Quite simply, be definition, if you do not know the offer price of an item, ie the contract price then you cannot say it is a deal. We all know on eBay, that the vast majority of people do not bid until towards the end of the auction, which means that the potential deal you think you have seen rarely ever stays as a a deal.

Nor do I agree with your suggestion about putting this to the vote. Are you suggesting Glenn is incapable of ruling on this, unless he agrees with you? If something is a buy it now, then like a fixed price advert in Gumtree or the likes, then if you consider the offer price to be a bargain then you have the option of buying it. No such luxury applies with an auction.

I will not comment further in this thread


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Devil's Advocate hat on. The thing is that as we all know any ebay auction is potentially a deal as so many deals are done outside of Ebay after an interested party gets in touch with the seller, it has also served to advise people who think something may be a deal. That particular sub-forum has run fairly smoothly with people posting ebay auctions for quite a while, some goods on auction might be a collection only so won't attract many bidders but a member local to the item may be able to get themselves a deal. I have no strong feelings on either side of the debate but I do think that the views of the people who have been happy with things the way they were haven't really been considered.

To Coldplayer there is no secret "inner cabal" of members who scour ebay and the like in order to snag every bargain and sell it on at a profit, all the tools to scan ebay for oddly spelled or incorrectly labelled items are publicly available tools, there is also nothing to stop you posting deals you see from Loot, Gumtree, Preloved etc and those are where the bargains are to be found, but via those media it's very much caveat emptor and being prepared to put the work in to deep clean, refurb, service and restore an item before selling it. An example here, my RR55 which I recently sold was in very good condition and regularly cleaned and kept clean I still spent 2 and half hours giving it a stripdown and thorough deep clean and polish before it left me.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I had a look at the rules and a careful think about it. i don't think it's so cut and dried and in a sense its a little bit difficult that we even have a detailed policy on it. It's a difficult area when the type of listing that can and cannot be shown is covered by forum rules. I don't really want to go into any detail on this as it might even have legal implications?

I also think the Deal Section is a rather unfortunate name...perhaps* "Items for sale or Auction/Other Internet sites"* or something equally non descript. This is because I don't think the rules would/should specifically be only for a particular auction site....why would they be and there are many classified ads sites.

lastly we come to the effect on our members good or bad....in a sense this is almost irrelevant. The internet is a very big place, it's unlikely a link here will affect anything, but it will of course alert a member to an item being sold or auctioned. Should the forum be controlling that flow of information and deciding what information will/won't go to members...I feel that it shouldn't. Our policy should be simple, clear and unrestricted. "Here you can post links that might be of interest to other members".

Imagine the scenario where Someone has seen an item on Auction and is wondering whether it a good deal, wants some other members advice as to what it might be worth....they can't ask under the new rule, this seems wrong?


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## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

I agree with DavecUK. I have proposed similar nomenclature in a previous related post!


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

I personally think it's wrong not to be able to post auction links. If deal is the wrong word, create another sun forum as has been suggested.


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## ajh101 (Dec 21, 2013)

Perhaps a separate, clearly defined Auction section could be set up, to keep things clear for everyone?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

To be fair there are probably three groups of people in relation to this " rule change " The third is the people who don't care one way or another and are wondering what all the fuss is about. personally I just want some resolution and clarity one way or another so we can stop debating it over and over and talk about drinking coffee.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The contract price thing is a bit of a red herring IMO. An auction for a Super Jolly that's a quid with ten mins left to run is a potential deal.

What it does do however is protect the interest of other members who may be bidding on it. When an item gets posted on here it's not just members who get alerted but all the browsing public - that stats say right now there's 36 members online but also 175 guests. That's a lot of people we don't know.

I don't have a problem with people sharing these sort of deals but the fact it's the entire world who can see them isn't quite right. Any potential bargains should be for members who contribute and that's why I advocated a section for these sort of deals which was restricted to a certain post count/post ratio or something. If the buy/sell section is limited to people with a certain number of posts (although I realise there is an element of trying to make sure the seller is genuine too in that case) then an auction deals sections should be too


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I am with Jeebsy here, all to often other people who just browse our forum jump on the deals that we intend to be got by contributing members, the point of alerting each other to bargains is the hope that someone here actually gets the deal and not a poacher


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## Eyedee (Sep 13, 2010)

I agree, we need to remember this is a forum for coffee lovers and not an ebay selling platform.

Ian


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## Dr Steve (Nov 25, 2013)

Is it possible to allow non members access to only certain parts of the coffeeforums website and keep the Deals section away from their gaze?


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

I sense a compromise...could it be so?


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I personally think that people are overly sensitive here. When I post deals here, I generally often post them also at the London Fixed Gear forum which has far more traffic than this place. Do you (the forum) want me to stop doing that too? Maybe you do. The number of "guests" viewing this forum may be largely comprised of "bots", ie. not real people.

Jeebsy's suggestion of a private forum is probably the best solution, in my opinion.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Dr Steve said:


> Is it possible to allow non members access to only certain parts of the coffeeforums website and keep the Deals section away from their gaze?


Non members and members with


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

50 posts to try combat spam posting?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ouch i feel hurt and demolerised rodabod


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I said I would not comment further, but, the whole point of this simple exercise, is to define what a 'deal' is. If you do not know the price at which it is being offered for sale (not auction as the start price is irrelevant), then how on earth can you know if it actually constitutes a deal or not.

If someone can explain that to me, then I will shut up.

This is basic consumer law we are discussing. A deal can only be struck if a contact is entered into. the seller offers the goods for sale, and the buyer completes the contract by having an offer accepted. that is law. Auctions are not covered by this.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Some good debate here. Is this a decision based on law (some may say semantics) or is it an attempt to stop the final sale price being overly inflated? If it's the latter, I'm sure that there are other fora flagging up items for sale on eBay. My twopenneth - the only coffee item I bought from eBay was a FF X1 in a sad state so I tend to steer clear of these bargains now


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> This is basic consumer law we are discussing. A deal can only be struck if a contact is entered into. the seller offers the goods for sale, and the buyer completes the contract by having an offer accepted. that is law. Auctions are not covered by this.


I think it's semantics. 'Deal' doesn't mean anything in law really. Are we talking about offers? Or invitations to treat? If we're talking about eBay and 'doing a deal' the deal is done upon conclusion of the auction. There's still a deal.

A deal IMO is a potential bargain or good buy for someone. Why shouldn't we share these with other contributing members?


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> I said I would not comment further, but, the whole point of this simple exercise, is to define what a 'deal' is. If you do not know the price at which it is being offered for sale (not auction as the start price is irrelevant), then how on earth can you know if it actually constitutes a deal or not.
> 
> If someone can explain that to me, then I will shut up.
> 
> This is basic consumer law we are discussing. A deal can only be struck if a contact is entered into. the seller offers the goods for sale, and the buyer completes the contract by having an offer accepted. that is law. Auctions are not covered by this.


So your objection isn't to one posting an auction here, it's to using the term "deal" when associated with an auction based transaction?


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> ouch i feel hurt and demolerised rodabod


I'm genuinely sorry if my opinion is insulting, but it does all boil down to a difference in opinion, and is not meant to be taken personally.

I only ever post potential "deals" to try and help others. Yes, you can argue that ironically this also spoils potential deals for others. I don't do it for my own benefit. The only reason you could do it for your own benefit is if you were the seller.

I've been put onto some good deals here before, and that has only solidified my opinion that it's a good thing to share. However, I agree that it needs to be controlled in some way, perhaps as Jeebsy has suggested.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> I think it's semantics. 'Deal' doesn't mean anything in law really. Are we talking about offers? Or invitations to treat? If we're talking about eBay and 'doing a deal' the deal is done upon conclusion of the auction. There's still a deal.
> 
> A deal IMO is a potential bargain or good buy for someone. Why shouldn't we share these with other contributing members?


Simple jeebsy....you do not know if it is a deal or not. Potential is a ludicrous thing to suggest in this situation.

Arguably, I am the best driver in the world...........yeah right!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Fraser, I have no objection to anyone sharing a deal. For example, we do group buys on here for forum members benefit. Someone looking for a cream jug spots one for sale on a website and alerts others. that is fantastic community spirit.

But, those are fixed price deals where you know how much the goods are. On Ebay, there is NO relationship between the price at any one point in time and the final sale price so how are you able to state if it is a deal or not.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

All you're doing is alerting people to something that may or may not go for a bargain price. If it does, someone could bag it on the cheap. If it doesn't, que sera, sera.



dfk41 said:


> On Ebay, there is NO relationship between the price at any one point in time and the final sale price so how are you able to state if it is a deal or not.


If an SJ is 99p with no reserve and 5 mins to go, that might go cheap. Not saying it will, but it might. Someone might want to throw their hat in the ring for it.

An SJ at £250 with three days to go is less likely to be a 'deal'


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

rodabod, i was being sarcastic and over sensitive!!! appreciate your sentiment though


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

Hats are getting more expensive these days....


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> rodabod, i was being sarcastic and over sensitive!!! appreciate your sentiment though


Ah, sense of humour failure on my part! It's difficult on the internet.


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

dfk41 your "last word on the subject" are very similar to my wife's !

My input is limit the "deals" ( or different new name) forum to active members with min 50 post count and let people post away!


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## xiuxiuejar (Jan 24, 2012)

I don't think the argument is about what constitutes a deal or not but that some people feel that shared information is driving up the price of products they would like to buy. I think that as a 'community' we should adopt a 'community' spirit and view and just allow people the freedom to post whatever they want as long as it adheres to the rules already in place on the site. These rules have served for many years and have benefitted many members.

What next? Are you going to stop a member who contributes to the site, announcing that they have placed a product up for sale on eBay? I think it would be unfair and ridiculous.

This site works best as a source of opinion and information, a place to share and to talk about coffee, where to buy, what to try, what's good or not. A site for fun and entertainment, a site to offer help. I, as most, have benefitted from much that has been shared here.

I've witnessed some amazingly generous acts from some members of the forum and I've seen some extraordinarily petty arguments too. I do not think the forum should bow to pressure from a few people who are merely interested in their own situation.


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## Big O (Feb 25, 2014)

for what it's worth (less than 2p!), I believe people who post these so called "ebay deals" into the forum are just generally wanting to be nice, as is the standard format of this very nice forum...as we all know an ebay prowler would not share valuable bargain details with anyone as the less people see it, the better the bargain it can become. But then when shared in the forum as a good will gesture for others, then can pee off another who was prowling on the very same deal and perhaps the prey becomes the object of desire for many more. Ultimately I see the sensible medium being that when it comes to "ebay deals", be mean, selfish and cunning. The feeling of needing to share such a deal may be held back as we all know how to navigate the web somewhat and if there is a member who is looking for a grinder or anything else for that matter, then the Wanted section can be used for that. innit?


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## CoffeeJohnny (Feb 28, 2011)

I wasn't aware there had been a change. Even if an sj is sitting on 99p with 5 minutes to go. If it's flagged here there could easily be 10 bids generated from the post upward of £100 and then we become directly embroiled in a bidding war against each other. That could still happen without the link but if someone can be upset because the owner of this forum made a judgement call how much more upset could someone be if they lost out because of someone on here out bidding them.

I am personally a little jealous that some do seem to pick up deal after deal. I am, however, aware that this is down to hardwork over time and these people may become a go to person for a particular item.

Anyway I'm going for a coffee


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

Yes Row said:


> dfk41 your "last word on the subject" are very similar to my wife's !
> 
> My input is limit the "deals" ( or different new name) forum to active members with min 50 post count and let people post away!


Totes. This is the answer IMHO.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy, here is your chance to shut me up! If you can find any examples of ANY mainstream grinders still being at 99p with 5 minutes to go................


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

All very interesting opinions that I'm sure will be taken into account when Glenn catches this thread and reflects on whether he feels the current changes are what he wishes to see applied going forward.

And I'm sure he has probably mulled over most of these points already before deciding on the current rules.

Until then perhaps ill recount the same mantra

" agree to disagree "

Ultimately whatever Glenn decides to do ( keep or change these ) some people will be agree , some people will disagree. At which point you will have to agree to disagree ...







and live by whatever is in place at that point


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

I generally think sellers are being overlooked here.

If I was selling on ebay and my potential buyers weren't able to know I was selling something I'd end up with a lower price and they'd lose the chance to buy. Other people may buy it outside the forum and the very people most interested didn't know!

I agree a limit being set could be a good idea. It also seems that there should be a separate section for unfinished auctions that isn't called deals. Then dfk's head won't explode!

Boots is right about agree to disagree and I also recognise that this forum is run by mods and Glenn and I respect their decision.

To be honest Charlie's point that the best bargains (rather than deal, as a deal doesn't imply a good deal: just an agreement to buy) are to be had on preloved, Gumtree and the like. That goes for buyer and seller. We should post more of those.

Have to be careful about posting commercial deals as the forum has sponsors.


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## coldplayer (Oct 3, 2013)

Ok. I think the replies to my post has proven my point. But to be honest, most of my point has been missed. If you all look at what I wrote, you will see that my disquiet was with the forum rule being changed to the detriment of a large section of the forum. It was the change without consultation, on an issue that has been vociferously debated at length, that concerned me. We all have differing views, on all sorts of subjects, but on this subject, which has such polar views, I felt it would have been best to ask all forum members what they wanted with regard to the rule change. And as has been shown in the replies above, good ideas could have been put forward, to give us a rule change that would have gone some way to appeasing both sides. Like the Deals section only being accessible by forum members with a certain value of posts.

As DFK41 has addressed me specifically on this issue, I will answer his points. Read my post again, you will see no "accusations". I have described the 2 groups related to this issue, as I see them, and have registered my disquiet at one groups views possibly being overlooked. And as to your question "Are you suggesting Glenn is incapable of ruling on this, unless he agrees with you?", again I say, read my post again. No such suggestion is made or inferred.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

oracle, post as many commercial deals as you want. it has got bot all to do with forum sponsors! If they want to price match something then if they are active on the forum that is their choice. My head will never explode! I live life by the simplest approach possible in any given situation. If the forum name was rebadged, Deals, unfinished auctions and the likes thereof, I would be silent, but it is not! people who are from the forum who are selling things on ebay have already either tried the forum first or have decided not to offer it to the forum, therefore why should their item be promoted?


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

dfk41 said:


> oracle, post as many commercial deals as you want. it has got bot all to do with forum sponsors! If they want to price match something then if they are active on the forum that is their choice. My head will never explode! I live life by the simplest approach possible in any given situation. If the forum name was rebadged, Deals, unfinished auctions and the likes thereof, I would be silent, but it is not! people who are from the forum who are selling things on ebay have already either tried the forum first or have decided not to offer it to the forum, therefore why should their item be promoted?


So it IS actually down to the terminology then.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Just out of interest.... has anyone ever bagged a bargain from an ebay link posted on here?

When I was looking for a new grinder a few months back, any Ebay Mazzers that were posted on here tended to sky rocket anyway. Luckily I managed to get one from a forum member.


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

EBay is the devil. Fees fees fees. Unreliable and risky sellers and buyers. It used to be great. Now its a gauntlet that you run every time.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

fraser, you are trying to pinpoint my concerns, so, let me explain them. I stand by the fact, that a deal is only a deal if you know what it is. Just because something has a start price which looks attractive, bears no resemblance to where the final price might be. Since no one knows what that final price may be, they how can anyone suggest it might be a deal.

the knock on effect from that, is that the more people who suddenly see one of these bargains, then the more false traffic the seller sees, which also probably includes being contacted by people who are trying to make offers or buy off auction. if an item is sold by the seller off auction, then the only person who benefits is the person to make contact and follow through.

I think, that if you particularly want a Mazzer SJ and want to buy from ebay, then if you want a bargain you have to work for it and do some leg work, not rely upon others to do it for you. thats just my view point.

So, terminology, to a point. If you go shopping, and pick up a tin of peaches with a price tag of 32p, how would you feel if when you get to the checkout the girl says that they have become and the average price is now 66p.........that may be stupid but the point is you are making your decision to buy based on contract law, now what might be


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

Ok. Point received. However I think the real point you may be trying to subconsciously deliver is that you are somewhat miffed that the serious legwork many of us put in to try and scout out these potential "steals" is being undone at the push of a button. Furthermore the fact that these people are then highlighting this by terming it a "deal" is reinforcing your annoyance. Yes?


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

So lazy arses, for want of a better term.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I suppose to take this back to the original post, a concern is a concern which has been highlighted, however the forum owner is Glenn who has made a decision, which is his decision to make!

Getting a proper bargain out of eBay nowadays is nye on impossible unless something goes up for a really low buy it now price. (Which should absolutely go up here as it represents an excellent opportunity for a member to "get a deal"The more people that see the potential the more something gets bidded up, or the more people try to contact outside of eBay and an impromptu (not covered by eBay protection) bidding war ensues. Posting things in the wanted section and then alerting those members quietly of a bargain at least gives them a chance, but hey hi this will be debated by all sides of the fence for ever.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> I suppose to take this back to the original post, a concern is a concern which has been highlighted, however the forum owner is Glenn who has made a decision, which is his decision to make!


In a nutshell

Yep .


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

fraser, yes, you could say that is also true and part of my argument, but more a a knock on effect. I used to trawl ebay and have made some great steals so I am talking from experience when i have found something, sat and watched it only for it to go pear shaped when someone posts the link. We are not talking about someone finding a link to a correctly advertised grinder like a Mazzer Super Jolly...we are talking about finding a SJ or similar that has been listed incorrectly and very badly by the seller, and that you have had to do a serious amount of legwork to find.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Unless an SJ is listed as a "mzzer sppprr jlly" it's going to skyrocket last minute anyway. That's just the way with ebay, and there's more people looking than just us folks on here.


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## frasermade (Feb 26, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Unless an SJ is listed as a "mzzer sppprr jlly" ...


So you saw my listing then....damn two left hand syndrome...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

oracleoftruth said:


> Have to be careful about posting commercial deals as the forum has sponsors.


Do we....really? I suspect your statement is not as the forum is intended to be run. I assumed we are allowed to post any deal that's to the benefit of forum members. If that's better than being offered by one of the commercial sponsors, surely they are free to price match, or maintain their price based on the level of service they provide.

Glenn says: Dave is correct


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## oracleoftruth (Jan 15, 2014)

Not sure. Can someone illuminate please?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If members post deals its ok i think, if a business comes on whoring themselves they need to become a sponsor.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Just out of interest.... has anyone ever bagged a bargain from an ebay link posted on here?


Yes, me here:

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?8690-Is-this-what-I-think-it-is-a-Luigi-Maxxer-!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Let me review this and come back to you shortly.

Plenty of good suggestions.

The solution was put in to stop a large number of messages being sent to me regarding 'deals' not actually being deals.

Over 100 messages have been received regarding this. Hopefully you can understand the reasoning behind the change in the first place.


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

Over 100 message to Glen moaning, oh dear, I am surprised people are that bothered and annoyed by this matter and don't have better things to do.

Hey ho, I suppose, each to their own


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

100 messages? That must have taken dfk ages!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jeebsy, I messages Glenn once I you see, am quite articulate and able to string a sentence or even a paragraph together!


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The messages received re: Deals (and people asking for them to be regulated as has been done) have been over the past 3 months

I would have preferred a message from coldplayer regarding this issue rather than a post questioning the motives.

The next post will outline some options for people to vote on.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Jeebsy, I messages Glenn once I you see, am quite articulate and able to string a sentence or even a paragraph together!


Haha!

13 char


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## coldplayer (Oct 3, 2013)

Glenn said:


> The messages received re: Deals (and people asking for them to be regulated as has been done) have been over the past 3 months
> 
> I would have preferred a message from coldplayer regarding this issue rather than a post questioning the motives.
> 
> The next post will outline some options for people to vote on.


I take exception to your suggestion that I have questioned your motives. I have done no such thing. To do that, I would have had to know the reason that you made the change, which until a few minutes ago, I did not know. What I did with my original post, was register my disquiet of a change, that *could *have disregarded the view of the majority of the forum members. I felt/feel that this issue is so divisive, it could have been opened up to the forum for a vote, so that if a change was made, everyone would know that this was the majority view and as such beyond criticism.

I take on board your preference for questions being via a message, but was unaware that this is a forum where views of this nature have to be made in private.


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

The current wording of the posting guidelines for the Deals section is;

Before posting an eBay link in the Deals section, please read the following guidelines;

Only "Buy it Now" items should be placed in this section - as these could represent a deal

Items for sale and not auction, constitute a potential deal since the contract price is known

Items for auction (where no such assurance of a deal exists - eg an item with a starting price of 99p with 3 days to go) may not be a deal - as the end price is not likely to remain at 99p, and the definition of whether this item was a deal or not will not be known until the auction ends

Items for auction may be removed at the moderators discretion

The increased visibility is likely to push the price of an item up and may disadvantage a member who has in interest in bidding for the item

************

It would appear that there is an appetite to be able to post eBay links for grinders, machines and accessories which are being advertised and do not have a buy it now price.

*Please vote here* on how you would like to see these links displayed


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