# Naked portafilter - wildly affect extraction?



## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

Does switching to a naked portafilter affect extraction? I have a 2011 Gaggia Classic with OPV set at 9 bar.

Today, I made two doubles, both within around an hour of each other but with very different results. Same beans (Rave Signature), same 18g VST basket, same grind setting.

Standard portafilter: 18g in, 38g out in 27s.

Naked portafilter: 18g in, 45g out in 20s.

The only thing I can think of is whether I tamped differently or got unlucky with channelling (was too busy watching the scales and didn't watch the flow). Or am I missing something?

Sorry if this has been covered elsewhere or if it's a stupid question. I'm still very new to this...


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Silky729 said:


> Does switching to a naked portafilter affect extraction? I have a 2011 Gaggia Classic with OPV set at 9 bar.
> 
> Today, I made two doubles, both within around an hour of each other but with very different results. Same beans (Rave Signature), same 18g VST basket, same grind setting.
> 
> ...


It does not.

Now, humidity, temperature and bean freshness do. Follow the experiment up: tomorrow, repeat it, with he same PF though and check results.


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> It does not.
> 
> Now, humidity, temperature and bean freshness do. Follow the experiment up: tomorrow, repeat it, with he same PF though and check results.


Thank you for the quick reply. I'm suspecting the slightly alien feel of tamping might be my answer. I'd have another go now but I'd hate to tip a perfectly good shot (if i got lucky!) down the sink...


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## Nopapercup (Nov 6, 2016)

Film it with your phone so you can watch the timer and then see the flow after


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Are getting spurts and spritzers from the naked PF?


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Looking at the timings I'd be tempted to go a bit finer and try and be careful with the distribution.

Be guided by taste ultimately though


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Are getting spurts and spritzers from the naked PF?


Does this mean spray? I did manage to grab this shot in my mad flurry. Other than this single snapshot, I have nothing to judge by.

I WILL pay attention next time....


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

To clarify the above, although the flow is in the photo, I wasn't actually looking. In vanity, I was just trying to get the cup in focus.

One day, I'll look back on this thread and groan with embarrassment.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Silky729 said:


> Does this mean spray? I did manage to grab this shot in my mad flurry. Other than this single snapshot, I have nothing to judge by.
> 
> I WILL pay attention next time....


Yes spraying sometimes it will be a tiny jet of spray at 45 degrees that will obviously drench your scales.


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

urbanbumpkin said:


> Yes spraying sometimes it will be a tiny jet of spray at 45 degrees that will obviously drench your scales.


The other half would kill me if I start streaking the walls. Starting to wonder if going naked was such a good idea...


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## El carajillo (Mar 16, 2013)

Going naked is a good idea, it teaches you to prepare shots correctly:good: It is easier to clean the P/F and it is easier to change baskets. Stick with it.


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## Stanic (Dec 12, 2015)

Silky729 said:


> One day, I'll look back on this thread and groan with embarrassment.


We've all been there









Naked portafilter is great for improving your technique as others said, a proper grinds distribution has a big impact


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Unless you're using a tamp stand... my money says it will be your tamp. With a spout you have to tamp at an angle. When naked, your portafilter is level. It may seem a little thing but you're probably not tamping level anymore. That is, your puck is probably no longer even depth across the whole basket.


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

I've not used a spouted PF in an age. I find it easier to tamp with a naked PF


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

I recently saw a new technique when tamping (well new to me) that I've been using since. So tamp as normal to aim for level, then when finished angle the tamper towards the pf handle and squash down that edge of the puck a little bit more. No idea why I do it but I do lol.


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> I recently saw a new technique when tamping (well new to me) that I've been using since. So tamp as normal to aim for level, then when finished angle the tamper towards the pf handle and squash down that edge of the puck a little bit more. No idea why I do it but I do lol.


Did it have any effect?


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

Silky729 said:


> Did it have any effect?


I've just pulled a perfect naked shot so I'm sticking with this method lol. I use an OCD distribution spinner then tamp.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

joey24dirt said:


> I recently saw a new technique when tamping (well new to me) that I've been using since. So tamp as normal to aim for level, then when finished angle the tamper towards the pf handle and squash down that edge of the puck a little bit more. No idea why I do it but I do lol.


Where did you see this? Whilst it seems to work for you I wouldn't recommend others try this.

That advice flies in the face of both logical and long standing advice (flat, level, equal tamped bed). After all channeling is merely water following the path of least resistance and this method by its nature is creating more resistance in one part of the bed than others


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

@Silky729 going naked was the most frustrating experience in my coffee journey.

I sought advice on many threads to try and perfect it and found it nothing short of infuriating.

Despite my near blinding, tile browning spurting experience I am so glad I stuck with it.

Having come out the other side in my experience the biggest cause of spurting is lack of distribution, talk us through, or better yet show us a video of your shot prep and we can see what we can do to help you.


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## joey24dirt (Jan 28, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Where did you see this? Whilst it seems to work for you I wouldn't recommend others try this.
> 
> That advice flies in the face of both logical and long standing advice (flat, level, equal tamped bed). After all channeling is merely water following the path of least resistance and this method by its nature is creating more resistance in one part of the bed than others


It was an instagram vid. I'll see if I can find the link to show you guys.


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

igm45 said:


> @Silky729 going naked was the most frustrating experience in my coffee journey.
> 
> I sought advice on many threads to try and perfect it and found it nothing short of infuriating.
> 
> ...


Not sure whether I had any spurting. Lack of new patterns on me/walls/the dog suggests not. I have a junk tin of illy beans I might play around with if my next try doesn't work. At the moment, I suspect it was my tamping.


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

Silky729 said:


> Not sure whether I had any spurting. Lack of new patterns on me/walls/the dog suggests not. I have a junk tin of illy beans I might play around with if my next try doesn't work. At the moment, I suspect it was my tamping.


Be wary of trying with the illy. That may cause you a bit of confusion, poor/old beans are know to cause extraction issues (as are new/unrested, you can't win can you?)


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

igm45 said:


> Be wary of trying with the illy. That may cause you a bit of confusion, poor/old beans are know to cause extraction issues (as are new/unrested, you can't win can you?)


It was a contingency, purely because I'm coming to the end of one bag of Rave and the replacement bag probably needs another day or two rest.

Good job I actually prefer aeropress and V60


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

joey24dirt said:


> It was an instagram vid. I'll see if I can find the link to show you guys.


OK, i thought about this.

The best advice i saw on tamping was to turn your hip into the counter to get a straight-down-forearm push.

If you combine this with a slight raising of the PF handle (assuming you use a naked PF) or the natural angle of a spouted PF on a counter the result is a perfectly level tamp.

My guess is that the advice to raise the handle and retamp is to adjust the unlevel puck that results from your forearm not being perfectly perpendicular to the work surface. Best to put the angle on at the start of the whole process.

Hip in!


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## 9719 (Mar 29, 2015)

I think Obnic is referring to the following






Helpful vid anyways


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

mines_abeer said:


> I think Obnic is referring to the following


Yes! That's the chap. See how his PF is on the angle...


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

So... tried again after work. Same fast shot as the last. A little messy too.

Take 2: tightened up the grind by 2 steps and went again. All was going nicely until I realised the scales were turned off. So I stopped on 27 secs and it tasted much better. Good enough to work with for now.

That was the end if those beans, though. Hoping there won't be top much dialling in on the new bag.

Thanks for the advice people.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

How are you grinding this? Hopper fed or single dosed grinder?

T.


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

dsc said:


> How are you grinding this? Hopper fed or single dosed grinder?
> 
> T.


Single dosed, weighed in/out. Always pass a little through before to clear any stale grounds.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Do you mix the grinds thoroughly post grind? With single dosing no mixing will typically mean very hit and miss results.

T.


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

dsc said:


> Do you mix the grinds thoroughly post grind? With single dosing no mixing will typically mean very hit and miss results.
> 
> T.


No. I grind straight into the basket, stopping halfway to tap/settle them a little and then continue.


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## dsc (Jun 7, 2013)

Single dosing doesn't work well in this scenario imho, try grinding to a container, whisk / mix the grinds well and dump the dose into the basket, settle and tamp away.

T.


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

dsc said:


> Single dosing doesn't work well in this scenario imho, try grinding to a container, whisk / mix the grinds well and dump the dose into the basket, settle and tamp away.
> 
> T.


I'll give it a go. Thanks


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## russell16688 (Jul 23, 2017)

I have a Gaggia classic and had the same issue as you Silky. Even when I don't change any variables my pour times with the same grind on a naked and spouted portafilter are quite drastically different.

I find I always have to grind finer for a naked filter than for a spouted one. No matter what I tried it resulted in the same outcome. Still not sure why.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

russell16688 said:


> I have a Gaggia classic and had the same issue as you Silky. Even when I don't change any variables my pour times with the same grind on a naked and spouted portafilter are quite drastically different.
> 
> I find I always have to grind finer for a naked filter than for a spouted one. No matter what I tried it resulted in the same outcome. Still not sure why.


Shots on spouts will time a bit longer anyway 3-5 seconds at least I'd say.

Why, coz it's coming out of spouts..


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

russell16688 said:


> I have a Gaggia classic and had the same issue as you Silky. Even when I don't change any variables my pour times with the same grind on a naked and spouted portafilter are quite drastically different.
> 
> I find I always have to grind finer for a naked filter than for a spouted one. No matter what I tried it resulted in the same outcome. Still not sure why.


You say "Naked Filter". Just to make sure, are you guys actually changing the filter basket too? If you are, then it's obvious. You will have different extractions because the filter has changed. Now, just changing the portafilter (and not the basket) will give you exactly the same extraction timings overall.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Good point, what dose, what basket... Often naked pfs are supplied with a nominal triple basket. If your under dosing that then the shot would be different times.


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## Silky729 (Sep 11, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> You say "Naked Filter". Just to make sure, are you guys actually changing the filter basket too? If you are, then it's obvious. You will have different extractions because the filter has changed. Now, just changing the portafilter (and not the basket) will give you exactly the same extraction timings overall.


To clarify, I am using the same basket and only switching the portafilter itself.


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## gsisr (Dec 21, 2014)

There is always a difference between naked and spouted. You need to grind finer on a bottomless portafilter. The route the coffee follows is very different between naked and spouted. On naked you have only the basket. I dont though understand why you need to grinder finer for the bottomless.

Στάλθηκε από το Nexus 6P μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

gsisr said:


> There is always a difference between naked and spouted. You need to grind finer on a bottomless portafilter. The route the coffee follows is very different between naked and spouted. On naked you have only the basket. I dont though understand why you need to grinder finer for the bottomless.
> 
> Στάλθηκε από το Nexus 6P μου χρησιμοποιώντας Tapatalk


If you say so.

Would you agree however, that the route the coffee follows is after being brewed? Therefore, if you adjust the grinder, you will end up with a different brew ratio, whereas, if you had left the same, it would've been the same?

The only difference between a naked and a spouted are the spouts.

You may argue that you can emulate the same effect by putting the bottom of a teaspoon in between the basket and the cup on a bottomless PF. Will it be different? NO it will not.


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