# Shot glass for making every cup?



## EspressoMan (Sep 17, 2014)

How many of you would make a cappuccino, latte... using a shot glass to put the espresso in then pour it in to the cup then add the foamed milk?

Several of my colleges do this, I don't.

I do the espresso straight into the cup whilst heating/foaming the milk - quick tidy easy and no loss of the espresso.

I had training which informed me not to use shot glasses as you loose some of the creme (and flavor), using the glasses takes more time and creates mess. I was told to only use the shot glasses when calibrating and testing the machine and on occasions when the cup was too big to fit under the group handles.

My colleges say they were told to use the shot glasses every time when making a coffee - yet they don't know why and continue to do it (they were given training but by another company).

Any opinions on this?

Customers ask why most the others use shot glasses and I don't. Some ask for their coffee to be made without using a shot glass.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

I'd go with straight into the cup.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you have a proper process of judging how much coffee you are extracting ( either by weight or by using a volumetric machine ) then you can use any suitable cup.

I suspect shot glasses were used in training so baristas can easily eye ball a volume the shot pulls.

So how do you know how much coffee you extracting espressoman?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

A lot of us use scales to weigh the output so no shot glass needed. I know a lot of coffee shops doing this too.


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## EspressoMan (Sep 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> If you have a proper process of judging how much coffee you are extracting ( either by weight or by using a volumetric machine ) then you can use any suitable cup.
> 
> I suspect shot glasses were used in training so baristas can easily eye ball a volume the shot pulls.
> 
> So how do you know how much coffee you extracting espressoman?


I do a test every morning before opening up with shot glasses, each side, to check flow rate (20 to 22 sec), colour and amount in the shots. Also check after changing beans, check flow if and when anyone changed the grind and after cleaning.... Once all is good I just use the cups from there on.

Once all is up and running ok, I couldn't see the point of using shot glasses every time, especially when I was originally trained not to and the fact we can be really busy making several cups at a time means doing it in shot glasses results in a slower services and drips of espresso everywhere - which in my opinion doesn't look too good.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So what's your cafes " recipe " for its espresso then? What dose in to what ( presumably volume ) out ?

What's the machine to?/


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## gingerneil (Aug 21, 2014)

I weigh my output, aiming for 30g out in 25s from 18g in. The cappuccino cups from John Lewis fit perfectly under by Classic's group head on top of the small set of scales I have. I appreciate this isn't practical in a commercial setting, but at home it's fine. As I get better and more consistent, I'll probably just start going by eye.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Just as aside you'll get more consistent by weighing, and hopefully tastier shots as a result.. To then revert to eye balling a output will remove the consistency you have achieved...

Good volumetric machines can be a god send for a cafe though.

If you think weighing output works I cant see how stopping a shot based on a scale reading is any more difficult than by an approximate volume ( caveat home environment only , not cafe service with three groups )


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

I used to try with volume, but its too inconsistent and tells you nothing about the mechanics of the shot.

Now i weigh everything. That said, EspressoMan unless you're pouring singles 20-22 seconds seems very short, a double would be nearer 25-30 seconds.


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

On a commercial machine @ 9bar, 20-22 secs is good for a "mouses tail" pour. 25-30 secs may be too slow at busy times & risks "cooking" the coffee in the portafilter.


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

are you doing singles or doubles? pure fact is that 20-22 seconds is too quick for a double.

if you're doing singles then absolutely that's totally fine. But anything over 14g of coffee (and more likely 17-18 these days) needs at least 25 seconds to form a proper extraction, no matter what machine. That's if flavour rather than speed is your goal. If its about speed and turnover, then the end product is always going to take second fiddle.

I'm fairly friendly with most of Edinburgh's top end coffee shops and owners, and there's not a single one (many with baristas that have competed in the WBC) that pulls a double for anything less than 25 seconds, most aim for 27-30.


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## donkeykong (Sep 5, 2014)

problem with using a shot glass is the pesky creme sticks to it so you lose loads and being a scrooge it peeves me!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

shrink said:


> are you doing singles or doubles? pure fact is that 20-22 seconds is too quick for a double.
> 
> if you're doing singles then absolutely that's totally fine. But anything over 14g of coffee (and more likely 17-18 these days) needs at least 25 seconds to form a proper extraction, no matter what machine. That's if flavour rather than speed is your goal. If its about speed and turnover, then the end product is always going to take second fiddle.
> 
> I'm fairly friendly with most of Edinburgh's top end coffee shops and owners, and there's not a single one (many with baristas that have competed in the WBC) that pulls a double for anything less than 25 seconds, most aim for 27-30.


There are some exceptions

What about if you pull A double ristretto by stopping early at 20-22 seconds

Granted this won't be your 2 fl ounces

Some baristas will do this ...

Plus you can extract shots of high extraction yield in 20 seconds , but it does require the dreaded EK43

Cheers


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## Burnzy (Apr 17, 2014)

I do this when i get new beans for the first few shots, so i can weigh my extractions, when I'm about there, i then do it straight into cups.. i hate doing it as so much creama is left on the glass but need to get my weights right!!









although as i pour the shot out i get a small spoon and at the same time as pouring i skim the top of the espresso to help get all the lovely creama in!!


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## Yes Row (Jan 23, 2013)

It's a brave person who states someone is short pouring a shot without tasting it. We all know there is no exact science to extraction. Far to many parameters!


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

Re. Mrboots2u: Or the barista / machine operator who brews a ristretto when you've ordered an espresso !....grrh. I sometimes take it back & explain what an espresso is (depending on the delicacy of the situation & company I'm in).


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> There are some exceptions
> 
> What about if you pull A double ristretto by stopping early at 20-22 seconds
> 
> ...


Perhaps theres a lack of clarity on what a ristretto is... as far as I'm aware, ristretto is NOT pulling out the shot early and getting only part of the flow.

Ristretto as I've always understood it (and as smokey barns videos seem to descibe it) is tightening up your grind, so you get a much lower ratio for the same amount of time. The time is the one aspect that shouldnt be variable.

To me a ristretto should be something closer to a 1:1 ratio or possible 1:1.2 in 25-30 seconds rather than a 1:1.6 ratio in the same period of time.

The idea of pulling the shout out at 20-22 seconds to extract the sweeter part of the pour is a very different way of approaching things.


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## Milanski (Oct 10, 2013)

Ask for a ristretto in most coffee shops and unless they have a grinder set for it, all you'll get is a short-pulled espresso.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Milanski said:


> Ask for a ristretto in most coffee shops and unless they have a grinder set for it, all you'll get is a short-pulled espresso.


Pfft! Brilliant...


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

Milanski said:


> Ask for a ristretto in most coffee shops and unless they have a grinder set for it, all you'll get is a short-pulled espresso.


Starbucks will also serve me a 20oz latte! Doesn't make it right


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

For sure, this whole system needs some revision, to make it meaningful & universally transferable...I propose we start by defining the difference between a maxi-mega-ristretto and a short-mini-normale, I reckon there's got to be at least a ferret's ear socket in volume of difference, otherwise your just taking the piss! Oh yeah, the maxi-mega-ristretto should also be more coquettish, y'know, but not unintelligent, more prince of wales check than dogtooth?

Or...no, it's silly....but, hang on....no, it'll never fly...but I was thinking maybe we could espress (don't think you can hide "x", it's your turn next...) it like a ratio? A universally recogniseable, measurable parameter? No, sorry, forget that...it would lead to people being able to communicate effectively & who wants that?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I pretty sure mega-ristretto was in Akira or one of the higher level Pokemon characters


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

my ristretto's are 1:1-1:1.2

my normales are 1:1.5-1.1.6

anything longer and I don't enjoy the taste.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You never had a tasty espresso of say 18g into 34-36g of any blend or bean , anywhere ?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

shrink said:


> *my* ristretto's are 1:1-1:1.2
> 
> *my* normales are 1:1.5-1.1.6
> 
> anything longer and I don't enjoy the taste.


That's kind of the issue with arbitrary names, everyone has an idea of what it means to them personally, but how do you convince others of the merit, or establish a common syntax. Ristrettos have historically been regarded as longer than your normales, despite your normales being fairly normal. 1:1 & 1:1.2 shots are going to be hard to extract nominally (but that doesn't necessarily mean they won't be very drinkable), then we're into the realms of making a different drink, where the flavour is shifted as a result of pulling short, rather than balanced at a range of lengths.

FWIW I have very much enjoyed 1:1 shots, but you typically need to go longer to fully develop the flavour, maybe 1:1.3 to 1:1.4, if your gear/prep will allow...

Here is the Italian ISO 45011 standard on "Espresso", if it's shorter than that range, I guess you could call it a ristretto?

http://www.espressoitaliano.org/files/File/istituzionale_inei_hq_en.pdf


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## EspressoMan (Sep 17, 2014)

Mrboots2u said:


> So what's your cafes " recipe " for its espresso then? What dose in to what ( presumably volume ) out ?
> 
> What's the machine to?/


The machine is la spaziale s5 like the one in the link below.

http://www.coffeereal.co.uk/images/products/la-spaziale-s5-ek1281.jpg

The " recipe " as I know it is:

Fine grind, 7g for single, 14g for double, tamp 15-12k, 8-9bar, 20-25 secs.

If the extraction time is not within that we adjust the grind slightly (especially after bean jam in the hopper).

You ask about the recipe because...?

How would that determine if one should use shot glasses for each coffee then into the cup? Surly checking with shot glasses occasionally, through the day is sufficient, and then doing it into cups from then on?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

14g into 60ml ( two shot glasses ) is a pretty lungo shot with conventional grinders..

But if you are your customers are happy with it..


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## mean_beanmachine (Aug 5, 2014)

Going to the original query I think it's likely your friends maybe sell a lot of takeaway coffees (the cup doesn't fit under the standard height machines). That being said they should be using shot pots (small jugs with a handle) not shot glasses they must have asbestos fingers to be doing that all day.


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