# Quality vs Image



## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

(Quite) A few threads over the months have got me thinking:

How much "image" is involved in our (coffee related but any open for discussion) purchases?

and if "image" is involved how much is "self-image" and how much "show it off"?

conversely how much is the actual "utility/quality" the thing?

Some examples

Tampers:

(Given that how "much" tamp is actually required being open to debate from 0 to exactly 30lb etc)

1) Cheapo plastic supplied with machine - Bin it or use it?

(personally I think they look carp and I "feel" that a heavier option not only works better but can be a thing of beauty)

2) Generic metal tampers with various handles

3) Concave, convex, trapeze etc

4) Designer Tampers

Grinders:

Some grinders are basically pig fugly specially as most of us tend towards "commercial", arguably anything "non-commercial" isn't good enough (I think the HG1 is beautiful but it has "big burrs" and very high end engineering so it's not just pretty)

Mazzers seem to be the IBM of the grinder world

Many people would argue that they are not the best at anything but they a solid quality and get the job done

"No one ever got sacked for buying BigBlue"

COMPAK, etc etc etc

EK47 (ooops 43 ;-) ) - Which apparently is the 2nd coming

Hausgrind - which people are prepared to wait an eternity for

if people want to open it up to no-coffee stuff the feel free....

I recently got some new specs... Tom Ford for "everyday" and Prada sunglasses..... both of these have logos :-(


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I only buy stuff that some faux coffee celeb or forum member has cursory told me is good . ....there I said it . Happy









Unsure why you would think image has to do with buying grinders , they are purely functional and make the ingredient .

A higher quality ingredient is important more so than a prettier machine

It can be forgotten things like the ek have a fair bit Study and science as to the extractions they are capable off . Ultimately taste should the arbiter of if something is good or worthwhile to buy and whether that taste equates to the money you want to spend

Different burrs and larger burrs shape the way the coffee tastes. Yes some more high profile baristas push different grinders over others .

You can spend £280 on a small shiny home grinder that comes in lots of colours that matches your toaster it will make good coffee but for the same money you can get some thing that will make a more consistent grind .

So its not about it being " not good enough " it's about what is right for you and what value you can get for the money you are spending.

And whether you are allowed something in the kitchen that doesn't match the colour scheme

Tampers are nice things to own and some of them are bought for functional reasons , some of them are bought as things to have , there is no shame in that .

Lastly we are men , we collect things and convince ourselves sometimes that the next thing is the best thing , we all do it. Perhaps not with coffee gear but perhaps with a car m or a Hifi or a camera or shaving kit . It's ok , we are In a safe place here . We can admit to it ....

Oh just so I can get all the comments in

Emperors new clothes ...


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

On the grinder front - I get the feeling that some people think Mazzer is the "be all and end all"....

ie Its the fact that it's a Mazzer that outweighs it being a decent grinder.

In the "non-coffee-geek" (forgive me but I count myself as a trainee-coffee-geek) world image (and badge) is very strong:

Kitchen-Aid & Ascaso are available in department stores that sell some pretty expensive coffee kit.

Neither of which get rave reviews here....

DeLongi, Krups etc are "big names" in kitchen stuff and they sell lots of grinders - Although by CG are rated carp.

In the CG world Mazzer definately gets recommended more often than most/all others - although when you delve into it they are far from perfect (particularly for home use).

Currently the EK is the be all and end all - but even amongst geeks not many would even think of that sort of money...


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> It's ok , we are In a safe place here . We can admit to it ....
> 
> Oh just so I can get all the comments in
> 
> Emperors new clothes ...


My name is Neill and I'm a gearaholic.

I admit it, I bought the HG one because I thought it would look nice in my kitchen. Problem is I don't think my non coffee obsessed friends get it


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Quite often how people perceive things, comes down to the marketing budget


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Drewster said:


> On the grinder front - I get the feeling that some people think Mazzer is the "be all and end all"....
> 
> ie Its the fact that it's a Mazzer that outweighs it being a decent grinder.
> 
> ...


Department stores will sell things they can explain reasonably easy , they can buy on sale or return and have a good margin on

They are not specialised coffee retailers . They are easy to use but make not great coffee

I'm not sure everyone would agree that mazzers are the be all and end all , they are an age old realiable branded name .


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Neill said:


> My name is Neill and I'm a gearaholic.
> 
> I admit it, I bought the HG one because I thought it would look nice in my kitchen. Problem is I don't think my non coffee obsessed friends get it


I think the HG1 almost counts as a work of art.... it looks so good who cares if it grinds anything...

but despite looking like a sculpture it (by all accounts and by logic) is a high quality grinder.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Neill said:


> My name is Neill and I'm a gearaholic.
> 
> I admit it, I bought the HG one because I thought it would look nice in my kitchen. Problem is I don't think my non coffee obsessed friends get it


Neil, you're a brave and courageous man in admitting your addiction. You are not alone.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Department stores will sell things they can explain reasonably easy , they can buy on sale or return and have a good margin on
> 
> They are not specialised coffee retailers . They are easy to use but make not great coffee
> 
> I'm *not sure everyone would agree that mazzers are the be all and end all* , they are an age old realiable branded name .


I never suggested anyone said Mazzer were the "be all and end all"...... [Edit] Ooops yes I did :-(

I said the EK43...


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

For me it's got to be performance and quality in respect of build first and image second. Certainly didn't buy an EK for its looks. If some piece of kit performs as well as it looks then that's perfection.

Tampers are a whole different ball game. Two identical tampers that are the same basket size - one costing two, three, four times the other - is it worth it? In terms of function obviously not, in terms of form - possibly.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Drewster said:


> I never suggested anyone said Mazzer were the "be all and end all"......
> 
> I said the EK43...


Sorry mis read apologies . I don't want this to become a thread on the value or quality of the EK , suffice to say for whatever reason it seems to illicit an emotional response from people who own one and people who have never tried one . I am unsure why this is so .

It makes good coffee , it cost a silly amount of money .

I'm off to look at more torr tampers and talk to the chief enabler .....


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

I understand the point about image but I don't have a strong sense that apart from the packaging of some beans it's a huge consideration in relation to coffee - unlike clothes, cars, cycling, glasses and sunglasses. My modest contribution to this is that so far what I have bought, frequently via forum recommendations is first and foremost because it does a great job at whatever it is intended to do. Certainly, I think the design is important but only in that it is harmony with the function, not to cover up for something that is actually pretty mediocre. So - quality for me has far trumped image. I love my Classic, Mignon and now Torr tamper. They all do an amazing job and I'm right on forum message (for the group on the forum for whom that's the message.) Useful to raise the point, though, it contributes to the inclusivity of the forum because no one should be deterred by thinking that they don't have the 'right' image. It's all relative. Now to google the londonium site.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Drewster said:


> I never suggested anyone said Mazzer were the "be all and end all"......
> 
> I said the EK43...


If you like dark blends it isn't the be all and end all


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)




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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Depends what you deem as 'quality'. Something that performs as designed, solves a problem, or makes life easy? Lasts a long time / reliable ?

The grinders you are talking about have already stood the test of time as they have been on the market and in use for decades.

There are working EK43s in shops built the 80's still going, on their 4th-5th-6th set of burrs, im sure there are Mazzers serving for equal lengths of time.


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

I bought a tamper (my first).

It was convex (quite noticably so)......

It was sort of "stumpy".....

Stainless base and black handle (with stainless showing through)

I bought "one" because I knew I needed something

I bought "it" because it looked good

It turned out not to feel anywhere near as good as it looked - the black was rubberised

it didn't quite fit my hand

but worst of all it was far too small for my pf basket

(tamping was a sort of push the mound down a bit, push a bit down from this side, then that, a bit of a roll round (sort of nutation??)

All to no real avail as initially I didn't have any grinder and latterly only a cheapo...

My second was the right size  which made an instant improvement....

I might try another convex or trap in future one thing I am sure of:

The next tamper I buy will be chosen very, very strongly on looks (although it will be the correct size).

I might buy a Torr - I think they look really good.

I will expect it to be good quality, the right size etc but I will buy it because it looks very nice NOT because it "is" a Torr

I might need to clarify the thought behind my original query/debating point (Quality vs Image)

I expect a Torr tamper to be high quality I really, really(,really, really) don't give a monkeys if it has TORR etched on it!!!!

I wondered how many care about the actual labels... or would admit to it!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Agree torr's don't need the logo , see what your hinting at a bit more now









My ek has a photo of the uk biggest coffee geeks on it . I'm not sure if this qualifies as image conscious or not ......


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> Agree torr's don't need the logo , see what your hinting at a bit more now
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I want royalties for every coffee produced , 0.04pence please


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> I want royalties for every coffee produced , 0.04pence please


That's better rates than spotify ....

Will change picture to Duncan Goodhew and see if anyone notices


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

Mrboots2u said:


> That's better rates than spotify ....
> 
> Will change picture to Duncan Goodhew and see if anyone notices


I can't swim but can he make coffee ?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you unashamedly just want something because it looks nice fair enough but generally we seem to be quite a results based bunch.

If the best tamper around cost 5 quid from tk max it would be widely used.

The sage had image issues but it seems to have overcome these to an extent.

The pergtamp is going to be a good test, most people on here are interested in one to increase extraction/ results rather than as another bit of Pergerporn.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> If you unashamedly just want something because it looks nice fair enough but generally we seem to be quite a results based bunch.
> 
> If the best tamper around cost 5 quid from tk max it would be widely used.
> 
> ...


Half-mast-tamping™


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I like the competitive spirit which is interlaced in people's threads/post(s) about coffee equipment , it points out any warts and points out any Achilles heels, through reading and discussion nea arguments about things it helps to make a informative decision when parting with your hard earned cash. We all have our different journeys and its great to hear other like minded peoples opinions .


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

jeebsy said:


> If you unashamedly just want something because it looks nice fair enough but generally we seem to be quite a results based bunch.
> 
> If the best tamper around cost 5 quid from tk max it would be widely used.
> 
> ...


No you misunderstand...

For me:

1) It's gotta do its job

1a) If it does its job "better" everything else being equal "better" needs to be cost justified

1b) If it does its job well I am willing to pay extra for it to look good (but only to a certain extent).

I bought a Mazzer SJ - it wasn't for it's looks (It almost got my coffee corner expelled to the utility room)

I bought it because it gets lots of recommendations on here (despite documented weaknesses)

I bought it to replace my "entry" grinder which I had already outgrown - DUALIT @about £80

I was "saving" for an upgrade in the circa £250 area - which may have been a Mazzer, Compak etc

I bought it for less than £150.... which was the deciding factor (ie I bid and forgot).

I also bought my Gaggia for £15 at auction so I am always sniffing out bargains!

But I turned down the "Breitling" at the same auction @£50 cos I didn't think the quality of that item was likely to match the name!


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I buy coffee related products for personal use on a strict criteria "does it do (or purport to do) a better job than the kit i already have. I do have some niceties, i.e a torr goldfinger titanium whith engraved washer and african blackwood handle (no logo) ridiculous price but a thing of beauty,. Does it do a better job than a standard torr trapez? Not really, it is exceptionally non stick and feels nicer in the hand but the end result is fairly similar.

people will buy things for different reasons, I collect old lever machines, some of which are quite valuable, but all of which must work as designed in the first place, therefore I spend a lot of time and money restoring these little things of beauty, is it worth it? possibly, do I enjoy it? absolutely. So sometimes it might be the pleasure that something gives you that drives the purchase.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> If you unashamedly just want something because it looks nice fair enough but generally we seem to be quite a results based bunch.
> 
> If the best tamper around cost 5 quid from tk max it would be widely used.
> 
> ...


But then there is also the possibility of 58.5mm trapez flat Torr bases, which will separate those who want the extra extraction from the Perger fanboys.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

"Perger fanboys " bugger missed that one ...off to get my scarf and rattle ....sigh


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

you sure thats not the perger fun boys


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> you sure thats not the perger fun boys


The Fun boy perger ......


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

you me and patrick could be the L1P boys


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> you sure thats not the perger fun boys


Hey we just want to have a good time


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> you me and patrick could be the L1P boys


Christ that's a band no one wants to see ....

Or do they


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

thats right, or do they?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

As long as you don't perger yourself in the process. I wonder if St Ali also have a Perger Burger on the menu


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Charliej said:


> I wonder if St Ali also have a Perger Burger on the menu


If only so they can laugh at the jocks saying it


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## urbanbumpkin (Jan 30, 2013)

Neill said:


> My name is Neill and I'm a gearaholic.
> 
> I admit it, I bought the HG one because I thought it would look nice in my kitchen. Problem is I don't think my non coffee obsessed friends get it


It's ok Neill your amongst friends. I think the best course of action if for me to improve your self esteem with you friends by swapping your HG for a nice compact Krupps GX2. I'm on my over now


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## Chris_on_caffeine (Jul 21, 2012)

Someone said about matt perger cocktail sticks the other day, had me in stitches!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

smokeybarn said:


> Someone said about matt perger cocktail sticks the other day, had me in stitches!


But the cocktail sticks do have tightly controlled diameters.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

actually they dont, he has been very flippant with the sticks


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

There are the EK43 owners and everyone else who shall be known from now on as the ''sub-20 percenters''.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

ah but have you tested the dittings and the hoooooooge compaks yet garry?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

i prefer the "blinkered" and the "wise" you decide


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> There are the EK43 owners and everyone else who shall be known from now on as the ''sub-20 percenters''.


The crema and the scum - Shirley!

and once again each can decide.....


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I'm northern scum.....


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

coffeechap said:


> ah but have you tested the dittings and the hoooooooge compaks yet garry?


I dont need to . Ive a grinder for life.

The Dittings and Ubers have been tested and dont fair quite as well


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

garydyke1 said:


> There are the EK43 owners and everyone else who shall be known from now on as the ''sub-20 percenters''.


Repeat after me, all grinders are equal, just some grinders are more equal than others.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Neill said:


> Repeat after me, all grinders are equal, just some grinders are more equal than others.


Don't you mean

Repeat after me, all grinders are equal, just some grinders are more EKual than others


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Don't you mean
> 
> Repeat after me, all grinders are equal, just some grinders are more EKual than others












13 characters


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Back to point

I dont think Hauagrind was bought on a name , certainly not by me .

People waited for it , coz there really wasn't any real Uk competition for it , there is a great deal of patience and good feeling for the company and it was a genuine quality product...i Yeah it looks good too ( the wood and alu finishes etc ) it was a very good mix of form and function , it was just badly executed in terms of supply...


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

Mrboots2u said:


> Back to point
> 
> I dont think Hauagrind was bought on a name , certainly not by me .
> 
> People waited for it , coz there really wasn't any real Uk competition for it , there is a great deal of patience and good feeling for the company and it was a genuine quality product...i Yeah it looks good too ( the wood and alu finishes etc ) it was a very good mix of form and function , it was just badly executed in terms of supply...


I agree. Look what happened to the commandante. Slick advertising with well shot vids but dodgy quality control=product dropped by suppliers.


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## Geordie Boy (Nov 26, 2012)

+1 on the comments on the Hausgrind. It sits at a very sensible point in the hand grinder market with very few other alternatives (e.g. Lido), and at the end of the day it is a good value for money product when compared with other hand grinders.

I don't buy things on name, I'm with CC in that what I buy needs to do a better/different job than what I already have and in addition also pass a value for money and opportunity cost type test


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