# Struggling...



## Leonard (Dec 9, 2017)

Hi

A few years ago I had a blade grinder and a cafetiere but I wasn't satisfied so I bought a Hario Skerton hand grinder. That didn't really make a great deal of difference so I decided to focus on the brewing method so I changed to a V60 dripper.

That was kinda OK but I wasn't satisfied so I then began experimenting with grind size, ratio, water temperature etc. Even focusing on just one aspect at a time starts getting complicated in that varying grind size was all very well but if you're using the wrong ratio or water temperature then it's never going to be right.

Although I read lots of advice I was never really satisfied with the results.

I changed my grinder, someone bought me a Aeropress. I tried that for a while but I didn't really see the point - the difference between that and a cafeterie seemed minimal and still I didn't get what I considered to be a good cup of coffee.

It seemed to me that the best way to settle it was to experiment properly whereby you make several cups, each one using different grind size, method, water temperature, tap/bottled water etc, line them up and taste each, one after the other. But I also thought: 'Hey! this is just coffee, not a science experiment'. I was becoming obsessed.

I buy my beans from Rave Coffee who seem to be well respected but even that was confusing. The supposed flavours of each variety make no sense to me at all. nectarine, jasmine, apple, bubblegum, fudge, pineapple, chocolate: I never tasted any of those in any coffee I've ever drunk. Probably the silliest (from my point of view) is tropical fruit. What on earth can that mean? There's a whole variety of tropical fruit ranging from banana to pinapple and on. To me it's meaningless.

Now I've been in plenty of coffee shops and had some beautiful coffees and I've asked how they make it but it's been of no help.

So far I've tried 3 grinders, I've tried cafetiere, V60 drip, Aeropress, Chemex, stove-top. I've now ordered a Clever dripper.

One day...


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Make that day tomorrow, or the day after  It won't need to be next week.

Stop buying things. Really, you have enough brewers now to cover all bases. All of them can essentially make a very similar drink.

Pick a ratio & stick to it. I'd suggest 60g/L, you can tweak this for certain brewers when you have a datum to stretch out from.

V60 or Chemex will be easiest to trouble shoot. What is your typical brew size?

What size is your cafetiere?

I trust you have a pouring kettle & scales that read to 0.1g?


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## Leonard (Dec 9, 2017)

I have 0.1g scales. Brew size may be a problem as my preferred cup size is 140ml & I'm the only coffee drinker here. The cafetiere is a small one. Mostly the coffee tastes bitter so I can't drink it without sugar.

Main reason for getting a clever dripper is that it's less complicated (I've read). The advice on the V60 was confusing. Someone even suggested that I stir 'clockwise' whilst filtering! Then there's 'don't pour down the sides' & various other stuff.

I don't have a long spout pouring kettle as I can do a controlled pour just as well with my ordinary kettle. Probably the most noticeable difference was using bottled water (Volvic) instead of my very hard tap water.

I'm currently using 8.5gms coffee to 140ml water.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

OK, V60 with a regular kettle is going to be a real challenge. It's not just the control in terms of weight, but not churning the bed is important....difficult with a 'splotty' pour from a regular kettle.

Clever is no less difficult to get a decent cup out of, because people choose exactly when to end the brew they are fooled into thinking this makes it more consistent, but time does not relate to extraction closely enough to make this so.

Trying to make a 140ml cup n a French press will be difficult too, because the low liquid level will mean you are always pouring close to the silty bed & you will get more small particles in the brew, making it bitter (even if under/nominally extracted). Your cafetiere probably holds 300-340ml, brew with 300g of brew water always, if you have too much coffee, decant a 2nd cup when you pour the 1st & microwave it for a warm cup later in the day.

I'm not inclined to try and trouble shoot the Aeropress as methods are too varied & there is no easy way to determine correct grind.

I think cafetiere might be the easiest way forward until you get a pouring kettle (can be had for £20 on amazon).

Grind just coarser than espresso, just coarse enough so that the grind does not clump (we're going to start with the possibility of being too fine, as we will only need to go a little coarser...if you start coarse, this could take weeks).

Remove the plunger assembly from the cafetiere lid, you're going to assemble it just before you decant. You could use something else for the lid, but not something too heavy, or that will eat up too much heat (saucer/side plate may rob too much).

Grind 17g of coffee. Put it in the cafetiere.

Boil your Volvic. The moment the kettle clicks off at boil, pour 300g into the cafetiere. Put the lid on & find something to do for the next twenty minutes.

At 20 min heat some water to warm your cup & take off the lid from the cafetiere, refit the plunger assembly.

Skim/ gently pour off any silt/scum at the surface of the brew (this also holds bittering silt), about 30-40g will do.

Tip out pre heat water from cup.

Fit the cafetiere lid & plunger but keep the plunger above the brew, but under the spout...if the plunger is a loose fit & falls into the brew, use a clothes peg to keep it in place.

Hold the lid on the pot, so it doesn't fall off & gently pour in one motion into your now hot cup. Stop if you see silt migrating to the spout...wait a min or two & pour again. Leave some liquid above the bed.

If you get pruney, quinic, paracetamol type flavours, you have likely stirred up silt into the brew. Be more careful/grind a tiny bit coarser next time. You will not over extract the coffee, the biggest risk of bad flavour is the silt. Your cup should have no more than a very light dust visible in the last sip. Like this...








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These videos may help...






When you get the grind right for a small, glass cafetiere, this will also work for Clever...probably for Aeropress too. V60 & Chemex grind will be too coarse for a small glass cafetiere, but OK for an insulated steel pot, or a large glass pot. For now concentrate on the cafetiere & keep the grind to tiny changes, then see how you can adapt the AP & Clever to suit. Don't keep making big changes in grind, because it will confuse you & it isn't necessary.


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## IggyK (May 13, 2017)

The one things that made a big difference to me is water quality. From now on I just use Volvic.

(my fault got distracted and posted too late) Mark's got your back.

Why not get the Kalita Wave you don't need a gooseneck for it and it's easier to produce a good brew compared to V60 and Chemex.


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## Leonard (Dec 9, 2017)

Well, thanks for your advice. I'm willing to try anything so I'll follow your procedure. Just one thing, it sounds like I'm going to end up with what I would call cold coffee - 20 minutes plus?

I guess I'd need to stick it the microwave afterwards as I don't like it cold.

So here goes...


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Leonard said:


> Well, thanks for your advice. I'm willing to try anything so I'll follow your procedure. Just one thing, it sounds like I'm going to end up with what I would call cold coffee - 20 minutes plus?
> 
> I guess I'd need to stick it the microwave afterwards as I don't like it cold.
> 
> So here goes...


No just drink it as it is. Coffee at room temp opens up the flavours .

Do you want hot coffee that just taste hot and not tasty , or tasty a and little cooler.

Please dont microwave it


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Coffee often tastes sweetest around 50-55C. If your water is boiling when you pour it into the cafetiere, it will be around 70C after 20mins...this is too hot for me to enjoy, or to pick up all the flavours. Surely, the beautiful cups from coffee shops weren't scalding hot?

FWIW I poured boiling water into an uncovered mug once, it took 35mins to drop to 55C.


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## Leonard (Dec 9, 2017)

Well, maybe I've discovered something here: if coffee tastes best at 50 - 55C then it's no surprise that I don't detect any of the fruity flavours as I would discard coffee as 'cold' at that temperature. As I said, I don't like cold coffee. The only problem with that theory is that the coffee I enjoy most is at some of the coffee shops in town where it's not served 'cold'. This coffee malarkey is sure puzzling.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Leonard said:


> Well, maybe I've discovered something here: if coffee tastes best at 50 - 55C then it's no surprise that I don't detect any of the fruity flavours as I would discard coffee as 'cold' at that temperature. As I said, I don't like cold coffee. The only problem with that theory is that the coffee I enjoy most is at some of the coffee shops in town where it's not served 'cold'. This coffee malarkey is sure puzzling.


I wouldn't call 55C cold, run a 55C bath & you'll see what I mean  I sometimes brew in a cafetiere beaker without a handle...pouring at/just after 20min with a 300g brew, it's only just bearable to hold with a bare hand...sometimes a naughty word slips out before the pour is over.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

This is really great information. I never really got on with the FP, and actually tried it again last week. But after seeing this threat and that video by James Hoffmann, I'll certainly have to give it a go again!


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## Leonard (Dec 9, 2017)

OK, made some coffee according to the instructions.

First off it was nowhere near as cold as I expected, perfectly reaonable temperature to drink.

Details:

Coffee: Indonesia Weninggalih (Java)

Water: Volvic

Method: Cafetiere

Grind: Graduations: espresso - 5 steps - Filter - 5 steps - cafetiere.

I used 3 steps away from espresso.

Result: Bitter, leaves unpleasant taste in mouth, requires sugar to make it palatable.

Will experiment with different grind.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Leonard said:


> OK, made some coffee according to the instructions.
> 
> First off it was nowhere near as cold as I expected, perfectly reaonable temperature to drink.
> 
> ...


What is the grinder?

How was the silt in the bottom of the cup?


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## Leonard (Dec 9, 2017)

Grinder was Bodum Bistro Electric. (Skerton is very fiddly to judge the grind)

I was very careful to avoid silt - I reckon I removed almost all of it.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Leonard said:


> Grinder was Bodum Bistro Electric. (Skerton is very fiddly to judge the grind)
> 
> I was very careful to avoid silt - I reckon I removed almost all of it.


Good, good.

The most likely cause of bitterness then is under extraction.

It might sound counter-intuitive, go finer &/or steep longer if you have wiggle room on the temp.


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## Leonard (Dec 9, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Good, good.
> 
> The most likely cause of bitterness then is under extraction.
> 
> It might sound counter-intuitive, go finer &/or steep longer if you have wiggle room on the temp.


I'll give it a go tomorrow.

Thanks


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## Leonard (Dec 9, 2017)

Leonard said:


> I'll give it a go tomorrow.
> 
> Thanks


Hi. Apologies for not getting back to you sooner. I've now received a Clever Coffee dripper & finally I'm getting (IMHO) a decent cup of coffee. It's very easy to do, I've tweaked the grind a couple of times & all's good. I don't need goose neck kettle, I guess the steep timing at about 2 minutes & at last I'm satisfied. Thanks for your advice.


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