# The itch...



## cjbailey1 (Jan 17, 2011)

Well, I'm sat at work waiting for something to complete and desperately trying not to think about adding a PID to the Silvia. I can't afford it (having just bought a house), I don't have the time to do it (having just bought a house) and I don't have the time to learn to use it effectively (having just bought a house...) so why do I keep thinking about it!? I mean, it's not like I don't have enough coffee gear to play with!! I have even considered selling the girlfriend's preciso in order to pay for the PID kit, but I still don't have the time! Why is there always the craving for more?

An incomplete list of my stuff...

Rancilio Silvia

Chemex

Aeropress

Balancing Vacuum Brewer

Mahlkonig Vario

VST 15g and 18g baskets

Reg Barber flat ripple Tamper

Naked PF

Grindenstien

Attento Click Mat

Square Mile Espresso Subscription

Has Bean IMM Subscription

Various shiny jugs


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Honestly when do you find the time to drink two subscriptions worth of coffee? I barely have enough time for a sneaky double shot in the morning.

I PIDed my Classic and haven't looked back. I imagine the effect is more pronounced on the Silva which has a bigger boiler.

You know it makes sense. You can find time by sacrificing sleep. You know it makes sense


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## cjbailey1 (Jan 17, 2011)

Well, it's not just me drinking the coffee and I find it tends to build up a bit and then my friend comes round and decimates my supplies! I am currently working late shift so starting at 1pm, it's generally a Cortado (18.5g of beans) in the morning then a mug of filter for each of us (32g ish) at the house (forgot the old filter jug from my list!!) whilst doing work on it as I'm not living at the house yet so there is no sensible machine there and I don't want to "risk" breaking the chemex. I then do 2 mugs (16g of coffee each) from the Aeropress whilst at work, drinking tea in between.

The main issue is, if I do PID the Silvia then it won't be hanging on the outside - it will be in the machine itself so there will be a lot of measuring and cutting to get it all right.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

cjbailey1 said:


> The main issue is, if I do PID the Silvia then it won't be hanging on the outside - it will be in the machine itself so there will be a lot of measuring and cutting to get it all right.


Like this?










Why not just do the bog standard Auber PID install so it hangs next to the group head?

I used to work shifts and had much more opportunity to drink coffee. That is the only thing I miss about them. That and less traffic driving home.

Don't miss the unreasonable waking hours.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Why is there no übercosy on your list??


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## cjbailey1 (Jan 17, 2011)

fatboyslim said:


> Like this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly like that, yes - I'm an engineer and mildly(!) OCD about things so hanging it next to the group head isn't something that would happen!!!

I really enjoyed working early shift as it meant I had time in the day to do other things, but late shift is a nightmare, however - I need the additional money that comes from doing it!



MikeHag said:


> Why is there no übercosy on your list??


...because I don't own an übercosy









...mainly because I'm a heathen and pour straight from the kettle as I can't really afford to splash out the massive amount on a pouring kettle at the moment (due to buying a house... lol)


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Fair enough


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

An Ubercosy is high on my list, right after a pouring kettle! Yep, still dont have one!

How easy is it to aquire an Ubercosy Mike? if possible atall?


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

[breathes in with a whistling noise and shakes head thoughtfully] Welll... the übercosy club is fairly exclusive you know







Let me know when you're serious about it and I'll speak to the people upstairs...

Getting back to the Auber PID, where does the temperature probe go? If it is showing brew water temperature then does that mean it is somehow inserted into the group head? Or is it actually measuring boiler temperature, not brew water? (I'm assuming there may be a slight variance between boiler and group head, even though they are close to each other. Maybe that's not the case.)


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)




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## cjbailey1 (Jan 17, 2011)

*goes off topic again...*

I guess a teapot would work fairly well as a pouring kettle, maybe I should dig out some temperature probes and see how it does... I know my glass one is fairly stable in terms of temperature from when I was playing with making tea.

The sensor replaces the stock one which is reading boiler temperature, I don't know whether any allowance is made for the temperature drop, but I gather it is fairly minimal when the machine is fully warmed up.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

The brew stat which sits on top the the boiler is replaced with an RTD sensor, the steam stat is disconnected and the circuit re-routed to set temp via the same RTD, this all happens through a solid state relay. The idea is, you set the PID hotter than the temp at the brew head. so if you wanted 94c at the brew, you set the PID to 105c or some thing, I'll check the manual to get the exact number of degrees higher you have to set it.


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

Checked the Manual, 103c=94c, 102c=93c, 101c=92c and so on..


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Good stuff. Thanks


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## tenfoot (Feb 21, 2011)

I tried mounting the PID controller inside my gaggia, but it died after a couple of months - I guess it was too hot inside the machine. The replacement is mounted externally and is still going strong after six months


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Outlaw333 said:


> The brew stat which sits on top the the boiler is replaced with an RTD sensor


You're a brew stat.

The brewing figures are the same for the Classic retrofit kit. If you read the temperature profiling study you find that 102 degrees is an average brew temperature of 93 with a maximum temperature of 95 or something similar.

I have only tried 102 and 103 but I think 101 holds promise.

What do Auber suggest is the peak recovery time in between shots (on the Silvia)?

Its 4 minutes on the Classic but you can slow or speed that up by altering the P, I and D settings.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

Hold on a sec... If (at 102 PID setting) the max is 95, average is 93, that means min is 91. That's quite a temperature fluctuation for a PID'd machine, isn't it?


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## Outlaw333 (Dec 13, 2011)

40 seconds is the recovery on the Silvia!

My thingy says, at 103 = brew water at 94 with a possible 1 degree oscillation?


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

So what I meant to say is the temp guide indicates a PID temp of 102 WILL give a brew temp of 93 but over hundreds of repeats using one of those temp measuring portafilters they saw one or two times a temp 2 degrees higher.

This was a max possible value, not an indication of significant temp fluctuation.

Mike I'd be happy to send you the temp profile guide when I get home. Reckons you'd be interested.


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)

I would, mate







thanks


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The offset on Brewtus is set to -10c. ie boiler 103 at the brewhead 93 (thats the theory)

I found yesterday with some testing that the brewhead was almost flashing to steam when the PID was set to 97 brew temp! (this should occur at 99)...potentially Ive been extracting shots at 95/96/97 instead of 93/94/95!!! The fact I still get sourness may mean I need to take a look at brew pressure next.....the gauge shows 9.5BAR with a blank filter ....SCACE required!

Thus my offset is approx 2c off.....should I raise this value to -12c or decrease to -8c ????


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## lookseehear (Jul 16, 2010)

I think you would need to lower it to -8. I think you are actually controlling the boiler temp and the pid just displays a different temp - so when you select a temp of 93 you actually want that boiler temp to display 95, right? (Someone back me up here )

Sent from my ICS Touchpad using Tapatalk 2


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

The Bella Barista manual with the machine contradicts a video on youtube, one stating to lower and another stating to raise.

The question is which value is fixed. PID display or actual boiler temperature ....


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## cjbailey1 (Jan 17, 2011)

I didn't quite expect my thread to go off this way when I started it









All interesting stuff though so glad it has!!


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## tribs (Feb 21, 2012)

Yes, decrease to -8. boiler temp presumably is 107 but your brewhead is actually at 99 (107-8) but showing 97 (107-10).

I want a PID for my classic, but am considering a DIY rather than the Auber. I ran some tests with a thermocouple and found my brew temp is actually boiling when at full working temperature for at least 2 oz water pulled through without any back pressure then for another oz or so around the correct temp before dropping to low 80's. Shows the importance of a good temp surfing technique. Tests were backed up by taste tests. I am not convinced that PID will make all that much difference though on the Classic.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

tribs said:


> Yes, decrease to -8. boiler temp presumably is 107 but your brewhead is actually at 99 (107-8) but showing 97 (107-10).
> 
> I want a PID for my classic, but am considering a DIY rather than the Auber. I ran some tests with a thermocouple and found my brew temp is actually boiling when at full working temperature for at least 2 oz water pulled through without any back pressure then for another oz or so around the correct temp before dropping to low 80's. Shows the importance of a good temp surfing technique. Tests were backed up by taste tests. I am not convinced that PID will make all that much difference though on the Classic.


It does, it makes a huge difference based on one word. Consistency. I can pull shots of a consistent temperature (if you follow the operational guidelines provided by Auber) which only becomes apparent when you have two very similar tasting shots.

Even with the best temperature surfing I just don't think you can get the same accuracy.

A DIY solution may appeal to you but the Auber kit really has be custom designed with the Gaggia in mind. It may be slightly overpriced for what it is but I don't regret paying that much for it.

Just make sure you invest in a decent enough PID controller, SSR, RTD sensor/ K-type thermocouple (all of which is included in the pre-calibrated Auber kit).


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

tribs said:


> Yes, decrease to -8. boiler temp presumably is 107 but your brewhead is actually at 99 (107-8) but showing 97 (107-10).
> 
> I want a PID for my classic, but am considering a DIY rather than the Auber. I ran some tests with a thermocouple and found my brew temp is actually boiling when at full working temperature for at least 2 oz water pulled through without any back pressure then for another oz or so around the correct temp before dropping to low 80's. Shows the importance of a good temp surfing technique. Tests were backed up by taste tests. I am not convinced that PID will make all that much difference though on the Classic.


You were right and I tested it this way =

Display showing 97 but slight flashing to steam

Increased offset to 12 , turn off, turn on PID suddenly displaying 95

Decreased offset to 7, turn off, turn on, PID displaying 101 flashing to steam.

Changed PID to 98, left for 10 mins no flashing to steam.

-- I think ambient temperature has a lot to do with needing to change the offset. Our kitchen was fricking cold before Spring arrived, now its warmed up the offset needs to reduced a degree , or even two!


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## MikeHag (Mar 13, 2011)




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## Sam__G (Sep 4, 2011)

I'm still amazed by the improvement that a PID made to my classic. A few degrees adjustment can completely change a shot. Temp surfing could achieve ballpark consistency but small differences couldnt be replicated, by me at least. Steam power is, unexpectedly, much improved too. Best hundred quid I've spent on coffee equipment.

The preinfusion is pap though.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

MikeHag said:


>


Sorry Mike.

If you want to decrease the boiler temperature but leave the display fixed (say at 94c) then you decrease the offset value.

You want flashing to steam just about happening at 99 and full on obviously at 100.


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## fatboyslim (Sep 29, 2011)

Sam__G said:


> I'm still amazed by the improvement that a PID made to my classic. A few degrees adjustment can completely change a shot. Temp surfing could achieve ballpark consistency but small differences couldnt be replicated, by me at least. Steam power is, unexpectedly, much improved too. Best hundred quid I've spent on coffee equipment.
> 
> The preinfusion is pap though.


Lol! I just think Auber's instructions are pap.

I'm using pulse time 0.9 seconds, dwell time 1.2 and brew time 0.9.

Then just using the brew switch in the classic. In effect, two short blasts of pre-infusion.

I think this does make some improvement. I'll do some comparisons at the weekend.


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