# How much does the coffee machine count towards making a cuppa?



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Does a Rocket really make a better cup than an Expobar, or a Fracino than an ECM, or an HX to a Dual Boiler? Or is the final result in the hands of the perpretator?


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## paul whu (Sep 25, 2014)

If the perpetrator has a shit grinder, bad beans and doesn't have a Danny La Rue what he's doing there's not a machine in the world which will deliver a decent drink. Not knocking the virtues of a quality machine but I don't think it's the top priority. Nice to have all he same.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I've only owned and used an Expobar Leva DB so can't comment but my thoughts are that the biggest difference will be from the operator. Sure a DB may save having to do numerous flushes and allow you to steam milk whilst pulling a shot but doubt that alone will make a huge difference in the cup? Probably allows for more consistency?

Will also be interested reading comments of members who have owned a few of the above mentioned machines with regards to your findings?


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

It's like asking what tap is better for a sink?

If they all push water through at the same pressure and temp, then there can't be a big difference.


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Are all cars the same ? Surely a car is just a car ?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Thecatlinux said:


> Are all cars the same ? Surely a car is just a car ?


Four wheels, seats, gets you where you want to go


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Rhys said:


> It's like asking what tap is better for a sink?
> 
> If they all push water through at the same pressure and temp, then there can't be a big difference.


I think point being they don't all push water through at the same pressure and temp though?

I don't know enough to call out many differences but on threads about the Eric thermometers it's been mentioned each HX machine could need it's own routine due to loss of temperature, recovery, boiler being different etc.

I saw an old thread about a Sage DB where it came up that the E61 group head actually does a specific sort of pre-infusion from the design of it etc. that if you're very attuned to might give a little more body vs. other machines (all being equal).


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Thecatlinux said:


> Are all cars the same ? Surely a car is just a car ?





jeebsy said:


> Four wheels, seats, gets you where you want to go


Doesn't make you a good driver though..........


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> Four wheels, seats, gets you where you want to go


I've been in cars that defy all 3 statements, at least I think it was technically a car


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

So, we can all assume then, that in most cases (discounting top end kit of course) the machine is nothing more than an oven and produces a cake with the ingredients you put in, and I agree.

I also have to eat a bit of humble pie again. When using a lever, I never really bothered weighing out because when you know your machine well, you know the maximum output is dictated by the draw of the lever therefore information such as biting point and speed of flow get you to where you want to be, but with a pump, I find that the flow rate increases in the second part of the extraction and it is impossible to use the eye and level in cup to accurately guess the desired output. So weighing in and out is a regular part of the process now.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

I always viewed this sort of thing as degrees of error, every little thing you do or don't do to decrease or increase the margin of error accumulate.

Knowing that the water is coming out of the group head at a specific flow rate+pressure and temperature is a small gain on top of a bunch of other gains such as using the same amount of coffee, grind settings, using the right water, removing duff looking beans, tamping, baskets, basket prep and the end result is greater than simply the sum of its parts.

Suspect all the nerds here would be fine with a gaggia classic with an OPV mod, but it would be an occasionally frustrating experience!


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> So, we can all assume then, that in most cases (discounting top end kit of course) the machine is nothing more than an oven and produces a cake with the ingredients you put in, and I agree.


Not all ovens are the same though. How well does it hold temp/how big is the temperature deadband/does it distribute heat evenly (will your cake cook unevenly) etc


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> All ovens aren't the same though....


They all bake cakes


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Not all ovens are the same though. How well does it hold temp/how big is the temperature deadband/does it distribute heat evenly (will your cake cook unevenly) etc


Point taken William, but my original thoughts were not to compare a gage Classic with a Verona but to compare similar machines within their respective classes. so they will all have a similar criteria


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Taking the old hi-fi "chasing the point of excellence" adage: garbage in, garbage out.

So starts with the beans, then the grinder, then machine in a decreasing level of gain for increased cost, as a very very broad summation.

To use the cake analogy then you could make a cake with powdered egg and floor sweeping flour, mix it all in a used concrete mixer with some pond water and stick it in an oven and you would have a "cake". If you like the output, fine. If you don't, and suspect this is where most of us sit, you start tinkering with the input stages to get a cake ( or sound) you do like.

Add in something shiny however or the latest gizmatron.... 

If have learnt anything from being a member of this forum, beans and grinder play by far and away the biggest part ( plenty of people on here with grinders far more expensive than the machines they feed) these being my thoughts at least.

John


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Machines are like a beautiful woman. The men who buy them are fickle and more concerned about their looks rather than what goes in them while being even less concerned as to what comes out&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You can only piss with the dick you've got, so try to focus on improving the quality of your piss and spend less time ogling other men's dicks (by watching this http://www.baristahustle.com/espresso-recipes-putting-it-all-together/)


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

jeebsy said:


> You can only piss with the dick you've got, so try to focus on improving the quality of your piss and spend less time ogling other men's dicks


True say, I accepted that mines going to spray all over and stopped trying - maybe I should put more effort in. I'm talking about the espresso machine here obviously.


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## robashton (May 9, 2015)

Mine is ugly and does the job, bit slow though


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

IMHO the better (i.e. excellent temperature stability/accuracy, correct water flow rate etc..) your machine, the more consistent your espresso will be. I would never say that you can't make good espresso on a cheap machine, we all had our Gaggia Classic god shot moment, I just think it's much more hit and miss. Obviously the grinder plays a massive part in it all and the preparation is also key. If you are missing any one of those elements then your espresso is not going to be as good as it could be.

I wouldn't say that a Rocket is necessarily better than an Expo DB, they are very similar machines and I would put them in the same class despite the price difference. I would say that moving from a classic to an E61 is an upgrade and from HX to DB again is a big upgrade. When you move to something like a GS/3 then you have an extremely temp stable machine that should delivery very consistent coffee.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

robashton said:


> Mine is ugly and does the job, bit slow though


It's what you do with it that counts


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

Sk8-bizarre said:


> Doesn't make you a good driver though..........


what car do you have


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

In order of importance :

1. Coffee

2. Recipe / technique

3. Water

4. Equipment

You could argue point 2 and 3. Crap water will hinder even the best recipe and technique.

The alternative viewpoint is

1. Equipment (conic versus flat , pump versus lever)

2. Milk (ooooh it cupped well in milk)

3. Recipe / technique (tamper tamper tamper)

4. Coffee (how brown is it?)

5. Water (oh yeah forgot about that bit)


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

To quote one of Mrs WDs old adages.

"Its no point having the tools if youre not a craftsman." No idea what she was on about !

Interesting discussion and one that Ive considered on many occasions.

When does the law of diminishing returns kick in ?

and when is something different compared to being better ? Personal preference kicks in here

and how many of us want something to be better just because we've spent our hard earned on it ?


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## PeterL (Aug 5, 2015)

I spent an awesome day on Saturday that speaks well to this.

The good people from Coffee Bay hosted me for a training and handover event on my new Rocket R58. We took it out of the box and dialed it in along with putting together the plumbing and filtration kit. We were using their standard Mocha Italian blend and their electronic mazzer grinder that was awesomely dialed in for their office 2 group.

The day progressed as follows:

Coffee 1 - Had from their unit, nice grind and tamp, awesome mouse tail, coffee quite strong and bitter, good body but limited fruit.

Coffee 2-5 - My unit, grind too course, watery and metallic, under-drawn, grinder tuned finer for the next 4 adjusting dose and grind.

Coffee 6 - Too tight, portafilter sneeze, backed off the grinder a bit!

Coffee 7-9 - First decent mouse tail, flow a bit erratic but settling down as the pump gets used to it's job.

Coffee 10 - Better than their unit, more flavor, less bitter, far more appreciation of the bean and less tobacco tones.

Coffee 11+ - continued to dial in my grinder at home getting back to the same results by shot 25 at home. .5KG beans gone!

I think the summary is that with fresh beans, a good grinder and accurate dosing and tamping you have a baseline to work from. A better unit will let you go further towards an amazing coffee and appreciate all the bean is but the benefit is in the stability of shot for multiple pours and a better extraction where you can tune the temperature to suit the profile of the roast, something that's entirely lost if you don't have the basics in place.

I consider espresso to be a little like religion, it's only with repeated devotion do you find enlightenment, it's about precision and consistency of devotion.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> Does a Rocket really make a better cup than an Expobar, or a Fracino than an ECM, or an HX to a Dual Boiler? Or is the final result in the hands of the perpretator?


You did miss off the all important question David

Does a lever make better espresso than a pump ?

No need to answer that one.... you'll be back









edit : or is that my question #3 being answered ?


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## Sk8-bizarre (Jan 22, 2015)

Fevmeister said:


> what car do you have


If we are actually talking about cars I have a Corsa Eco Diesel couple of years old (I hate cars, means to an end, A to B that is all) if I could have any car and in all honesty I would have Chitty Chitty Bang Bang! I hate traffic and hate driving. Driver wise dunno 'normal'?

My BMX and MTBike are better even my many skateboards lol

If you are talking machine I have a 2015 Gaggia Classic (yeah the s*** one) and I use it to the best of my ability. Which means I try pretty hard but am aware of my inexperience and the machine will limit me but don't let it put me off.

I like making coffee I hate driving being the difference.

What do I put in?

Loads, dial in (or attempt to) 2-3 diffo beans a week minimum. I don't buy bigger than 350g but usually 250g bags as I am on a coffee pilgrimage and don't want to drink the same one all the time as I am finding what I like. I am narrowing the field at last.

What do I get out

Some ok results. Though I happily admit my in experience and then basic machine will limit my results in the cup. I am totally aware of this as I have tried to reproduce coffees served to me in good cafes including the likes of Colonna & Smalls etc using the same bean. I get something that represents what I was served but is inferior.

Would I like a new machine?

Yep, who wouldn't but haven't a clue as to which one lever, pump etc etc as I don't know enough. I did think I wanted a lever first of all but have come to realize it's because I thought they were sexy lol. I am not knocking levers in the slightest I am just saying at this moment in time I wouldn't have a clue which would suit me best machine wise because I haven't tried any others.

In time I will but I'm ok for now.

Have I done any training?

Nope and yes maybe I should and without doubt I should have gone to the Rave day especially seeing how close it is, maybe even to thank a few in person that have helped me thus far. I'm quite lovely really you might even like me hahahaha


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

+1 to what the following just said:

garydyke1

working dog

PeterL

Sk8-bizarre

Good points made.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

working dog said:


> You did miss off the all important question David
> 
> Does a lever make better espresso than a pump ?
> 
> ...


ha, well, since you brought it up, my next machine will most definitely be a lever! I do not know when. Hopefully next year sometime. I am actually enjoying the Nota though it is early days with it. I plumbed it in this morning which was a doddle, then I have to sort out the drip tray. It is easy to use, seems to produce an acceptable cup, but it is not a lever!


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## shrink (Nov 12, 2012)

for me, a better machine makes it easier, but ultimately as long as you have a decent grinder, and good quality coffee, the rest is all in the execution.

Can I make better coffee on the expobar than I could on my fracino, no, not really. What the expobar does, is allow me to do that more consistently, because I'm removing variables like temperature instability and the need for flushing.

Reality is, I could probably make just as nice an espresso on a gaggia classic, with the same grinder that I have, the difference would be that nailing the temperature of the gaggia would be mostly pot luck, and the steam wouldn't really give me the milk texture I was looking for. But if your bag is just espresso, and you can learn to make the most of it, a classic is probably all you need.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> but it is not a lever!


Before I bought my machine I did briefly consider the Vesuvius as it has the ability to profile as a lever machine and do lots more

But the simplicity of a lever swayed me. Maybe I'm just lost in the lever love and I'm missing all the other stuff that changing the pressure profile can achieve but I cant say that Id want to replace my current machine

Maybe Boots can sway me otherwise


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

I have thought about that very question too. My set up is a gaggia classic with pid and a silvia mk3 steam arm. My grinder is an HG1. I have considered upgrading the coffee machine but suspect that I would not see a massive improvement in either quality or consistency. The pid does a good job of maintaining the temperature for a one off shot (I am the only coffee drinker in the house) and I get plenty of steam for nice milk.

I think the grinder makes by far the biggest difference as that has the biggest impact on how water flows through the puck, assuming that you have a reasonably consistent distribution and tamping regime. For me the machine just pushes water through at a consistent temperature and pressure. The pid gives consistency of starting temp and although I am sure the temp drops off through the shot, it is at a consistent rate, so different shots will all have similar temperature profiles. If I had to make more than one espresso at a time then the consistency of the higher end end kit would be useful - but for one off shots I can get consistently good espresso that compares in my opinion with the coffee I have had from some of the more expensive machines at the forum days.

Am I just deluding myself and being too tight to stump up for the L1 I have always hankered after?


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## PeterL (Aug 5, 2015)

For a single shot, no milk then with nursing and a lot of awareness on it's ideal handling just about any unit will do.....

I upgraded from my Elektra because the first shot was awesome and nicely dialed in, the second went to foam and worse no matter how much I increased the tamp or flushed out or let it recover.

So much so my wife refused the second coffee and I was drinking crap most days....


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Jollybean said:


> I have thought about that very question too. My set up is a gaggia classic with pid and a silvia mk3 steam arm. My grinder is an HG1. I have considered upgrading the coffee machine but suspect that I would not see a massive improvement in either quality or consistency. The pid does a good job of maintaining the temperature for a one off shot (I am the only coffee drinker in the house) and I get plenty of steam for nice milk.
> 
> I think the grinder makes by far the biggest difference as that has the biggest impact on how water flows through the puck, assuming that you have a reasonably consistent distribution and tamping regime. For me the machine just pushes water through at a consistent temperature and pressure. The pid gives consistency of starting temp and although I am sure the temp drops off through the shot, it is at a consistent rate, so different shots will all have similar temperature profiles. If I had to make more than one espresso at a time then the consistency of the higher end end kit would be useful - but for one off shots I can get consistently good espresso that compares in my opinion with the coffee I have had from some of the more expensive machines at the forum days.
> 
> Am I just deluding myself and being too tight to stump up for the L1 I have always hankered after?


You'd definitely see a difference with an LI paired with your HG One.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

Oh you are just tempting me now TSK...


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jollybean said:


> Oh you are just tempting me now TSK...


I sometimes buy a Classic house for bit of fun. Agree with others, in that you can make one good shot, but then temperature stability issues kick in. The answer is, if you want to shell out on a better machine you will, if you are comfy with what you have, then you will not.........


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

Jollybean said:


> Oh you are just tempting me now TSK...


and I would just like too echo TSK sentiments and tempt you even more, ithe L1 is truly as good as its reputation .


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Jollybean said:


> Oh you are just tempting me now TSK...


happy to show you the difference!


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## Phil104 (Apr 15, 2014)

@Jollybean&#8230;..be tempted, be very tempted, be very, very tempted.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

It's turning into a conspiracy now!


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Jollybean said:


> It's turning into a conspiracy now!


You started it


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

Levers circling all round him line shark fins...


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## Rhys (Dec 21, 2014)

I love my lever, wish Id got one before the Classic, but then I would have missed a different learning curve. I now appreciate it more.


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## Dallah (Jan 31, 2015)

As I learn more I understand that the grinder and the mangler are the two most important part of the equation. I could get the same espresso out of a Classic than with a fancy double boiler. Milk on the other hand is a whole different kettle of fish.


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## Jollybean (May 19, 2013)

Due to lack of funds an L1 is still a dream at the moment, for when I do persuade myself there will be a worthwhile improvement. I'll stick to my Caravel for my lever fun which for such a simple bit of kit produces some really good shots.

Thanks to to all who have helped keep my dream alive.


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