# Advice wanted - HX or DB



## CraigE (Apr 1, 2021)

Hello. Newbie here.

Have had a Silvia and Sage Smart Grinder for a few years, and produce good enough espresso and milky drinks that a daily visit to a coffee shop is no longer necessary! Given its a basic single boiler it's a bit of a pain to do milky drinks for one person let alone more than one (first world problem). I'm also keen to see how much of a difference a real E61 machine would make to my espresso.

I'm looking for a new machine and I'm torn between buying a machine that will improve things now, versus a machine "for life". I like the look of the rocket/ECM/Profitec HX/DB range and am trying to identify the right model - If I was looking "for life" I'd be happy buying new, i'd want one thats plumbable, and I'd probably want to go dual boiler just to avoid any need to upgrade again, but i'm not particularly keen to drop the best part of £2.5k at the moment when i'm not sure how it'll work out for me which has led me to think a stepping stone of a rotary or vibration HX machine may be the way to go. I don't mind 'learning' the techniques of using an HX machine at all, but are there any other things I should be considering?

Also, is anyone selling a machine that may be suitable? Would be happy to PX my Silvia.

Craig


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@CraigE - Hi Craig, welcome to CFUK. We would be delighted to spend your money for you. 😊

Check over here: are there any machines which take your fancy?

https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/

I have missed out the most important thing... Your budget. How much are you thinking of spending for your immediate upgrade?

You may know this already, but your weakest point at the moment is your machine (temperamental and temp unstable) and your grinder. If money is a concern, then buy second hand (keep an eye on the For Sale threads) and go from there. If I were you, I'd start with upgrading the grinder first. And then worry about the machine. Also, you need to worry about water. The water on and HX or DB will sit inside the boiler unless you get it out. And, because of the high temperature and constant drawing of steam (pure water) all the sediments are left behind. So... tap water is a no no unless appropriately filtered.

if you look after your equipment, it will last you a long time, snd you can then sell it again - on here - for someone else to enjoy.


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## CraigE (Apr 1, 2021)

I live close to the city centre of Cardiff, and to date I've been using a little filter which sits at the end of the water pipe out of the tank. It doesn't seem to collect too much - a visual inspection of it shows some crap but not much, so I'd taken that as a good sign. I replaced it a few weeks ago anyway as it had been in there nearly three years. We don't have much problem with scale on other appliances either.

I did a lot of experimentation at the start dialling in, and use a calibrated tamper. Also use temperature surfing at times but for the most part haven't found it necessary.

Not against a new grinder.

Budget wise I'm pretty flexible - I'd like to get something where there's some value (to minimise the losses when it comes to resale). I offered someone 2,200 for a used linea mini which was probably over budget but seemed like it should hold that in a few years worst case!

Have been keeping an eye on the for sale lists.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@CraigE - 2,2k is a healthy budget. In my opinion, a dual boiler machine is best. It's more stable, better temp control. Doesn't the Lelit Bianca take your fancy? There's one in the for sale section. But you should really think about upgrading that grinder.


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## LMartin (Nov 28, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @CraigE - 2,2k is a healthy budget. In my opinion, a dual boiler machine is best. It's more stable, better temp control. Doesn't the Lelit Bianca take your fancy? There's one in the for sale section. But you should really think about upgrading that grinder.


 Hi @CraigE, sounds like a good position to be in and accessing the wisdom on these pages is a great idea! I don't have anywhere near the experience of others here, whatsoever, but based on everything I've come across I agree with @MediumRoastSteam your limiting factor will remain the grinder. Advice seems to be, be prepared to spend 1/3 of machine price on the grinder, so if you're looking at the 2k mark then you're in the sweet spot for sinking 500 on something like a niche, or even a second hand commercial. Ps if your upkeep has been good you'll get decent resale on your current equipment on here too. Good luck! and definitely spend hours on these pages, some invaluable stuff


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## LMartin (Nov 28, 2020)

LMartin said:


> Hi Craig, sounds like a good position to be in and accessing the wisdom on these pages is a great idea! I don't have anywhere near the experience of others here, whatsoever, but based on everything I've come across I agree with @MediumRoastSteam your limiting factor will remain the grinder. Advice seems to be, be prepared to spend 1/3 of machine price on the grinder, so if you're looking at the 2k mark then you're in the sweet spot for sinking 500 on something like a niche, or even a second hand commercial. Ps if your upkeep has been good you'll get decent resale on your current equipment on here too. Good luck! and definitely spend hours on these pages, some invaluable stuff


 Ps @CraigEI'll be following this thread carefully myself as I'm still deciding what the "for life" machine will be for me. ☺


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

You can pick up a new dual boiler ACS Minima for around £1,250 and the new Solo grinder for £400. I have the grinder and when the time comes to move on my Bambino the Minima is what I'm going for.


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## CraigE (Apr 1, 2021)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @CraigE - 2,2k is a healthy budget. In my opinion, a dual boiler machine is best. It's more stable, better temp control. Doesn't the Lelit Bianca take your fancy? There's one in the for sale section. But you should really think about upgrading that grinder.


 It came onto my list the past few days, and I spoke to the person selling one. Ended up pulling the trigger on a new one arriving tomorrow.

there's someone local with a used mazzer super jolly - would that be a good option?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

CraigE said:


> there's someone local with a used mazzer super jolly - would that be a good option?


 You need to decide what you want. If you prefer single dosing, go for the Solo or Niche. If you do go with the super jolly, then consider modding it to be single-dosed, otherwise the retention is quite something.


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## CraigE (Apr 1, 2021)

I don't particularly want to single dose if I can avoid it - I pull 2-4 doubles a day, and tend to put 2-3 days of beans in the hopper and dose from there.

With the Silvia I spent a lot of time getting a handle on the temperature, dose, tamping etc to get the best shot and then once I was comfortable with that I'm fairly flexible on a daily basis and pull good shots pretty easily except when I change beans i often need to change the grind and time. I also regularly do other grinds - for example I'll grind a batch for mocka to go camping.

I would prefer to take the same approach with the biancha - I'm looking forward to the experimentation, but that will probably be more of a weekend thing. During the week I want to have something that's pretty much ready to go and doesn't have much faff.

I do like the stepped SGP for that reason - easy to switch back and for between different grinds.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

There is no particular reason why you should update the grinder really. It's always said when people upgrade machines but factually providing it will grind for espresso reliably there isn't a real need to change it. Get into taste changes and just where to stop. I mean you must have an EK43 and special burrs. I found a Sage grinder can do timed doses pretty accurately when the same bean was always used. It took a while to settle and then might need 1 or 2 time settings changes a week to keep the dose close enough. Change beans and in some cases that may mean that the grind setting will drift a bit for some shots until the grinder settles to that. This is why many people weigh beans in. Bean changes can mean that grind settings will drift for some number of shots that way too but Niche is very good at what goes in comes out. It's also very good at repeat settings. The grinds cup make it more difficult to get a flat heap of grinds into a portafilter without getting uneven compression across it. If a hoppered grinder looks after that and maintains a constant enough dose it is easier to use. No comment on Solo at the moment. Not used it enough but retention will vary more than Niche. It has for me so far. That can be reduced but it involves some faff. It also choked on a dark roast - that may fix itself with extended use.

Personally I wouldn't under estimate the difficulty of using an HX machine if people are truly concerned about brew temperature.  Wish I had used one and will at some point.  A used one in case I don't like it - curiosity really. So say you just walk up to it after it's heated up and pull a shot. Some high temperature water will go to the grinds. If the machine is well designed it will quickly go to the temperature it should provide. The alternative is to flush first to get rid of the excess heat. It wont be easy to do that precisely so the heat exchanger may well finish up too cool. A fact though some people use them and love them.

Dual boiler should get around all of this - with PID of course and maybe a few other features. Typical PID and an E61 style group head. Both play a part in keeping the brew temperature constant but larger brew boilers often help.  I hear 700ml is usually about right. Can't see why larger couldn't help as well. The reason is down to cold water going into the boiler when a shot is pulled. Switching machine types there was a post where some one went to town on a Classic and measured brew temperature fairly sensibly. He fitted PID and didn't understand why the water wasn't kept at a constant 93C. It dropped. If PID wants to hit exactly 93C that is what the temperature of the heating element needs to be when it gets there. The heating rate slows to do that as temperature gets nearer it set point. If the element was at a higher temperature it would carry on heating. This gives straight PID a bit of a problem when cold water goes in. In fact when the machine is flushed the water temp will drop.

If you want to plumb in a rotary pump machine seems to be needed. Some people have fitted "toilet cistern" type things to ones that aren't but don't think anyone makes a machine with that.

There is another type as well Gaggia like with a big boiler. Single boiler dual use. PID is switchable between steam and brew temperatures. All vibe pump as far as I am aware.

All of these machine take a long time to heat up. If the portafilter is heating anything from 1/2hr plus. Some can be speeded up with flushing - recollect reading owner comments on one, 45min without that.

Good luck.


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