# Cojones



## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If you have read the book, Shogun, you will know that Cojones is Portuguese for testicles! What I want to know, is anyone prepared to admit that the kit they have is either crap, or does not live up to expectations? I have a Vario that I would fit into that category, but only when I compare it to either my Mythos or K30. If it was the only grinder I had, then I would probably be happy with it.

Just a thought crossed my mind that you can upgrade to improve or to replace....so how many have replaced kit as opposed to movingup the natural ladder?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

That's like comparing a Mazda 6 to an Aston Martin - hardly a fair comparison

If it was the only car you owned then you'd probably be happy with the Mazda 6 also


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Do you mean "how many people have downgraded after buying kit that was touted as being the best but found it didn't reach expectation"?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

or how many people have made a move for recommended gear (eityher an upgrade or sideways move) and then been sorely dissapointed and why?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

having owned probably most of the top end grinders by hook or crook or even proxy, i can honestly say that once i surpassed the plus £1000 (new) grinder, i am sure I would never take the step back, unless fianances dictated I had to sell everything I own.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I meant how many people have upgraded because they were unhappy with the performance of their kit as opposed to upgraditis


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

And then once having upgraded, are still unhappy


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## photojonny (Jun 9, 2013)

One thing I've been interested in is whether people spend as much time developing their palate as much as their kit? I'm new to coffee and read about £1000 grinders and machines, optimum brew temperatures, extraction ratios and the like and I just know I wouldn't be able to tell the difference (at present) - in the same way that a £6 and £60 bottle of wine would probably taste the same to me. I've had coffee in some well thought of cafes in Leeds this weekend, and when I come back to my Hario hand grinder and second hand Classic (which could probably be serviced and 'improved' drastically) I make espresso that I am perfectly happy with, and which isn't vastly different to the professionally pulled stuff (to my palate). Is it that those with the high end kit also have well developed tastes such that my Hario/Classic combo would pale in comparison (for them)? Or is the coffee hobby something that is more amenable to the tinkering and 'upgradeitis' than say wine or whisky appreciation where there is little kit to play with? It seems to me to have more in common with other interests (for example cycling or audio equipment) where there is no end to the expense one can to go for perceived marginal gains?

I don't mean to suggest that this is the case for people here - it just seems coffee is open to the 'all the gear and no idea' issue. I've seen it said that Beans > Grinder > Machine. I just wonder if it should be Palate > Beans > Grinder > Machine?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

I would love you to come round to mine, i will do you a shot on a gaggia classic and a mazzer mini (not a bad little combo) then a shot on a top end lever and top end Conical burr grinder, I think you will be surprised at how much difference there is in the taste of the two shots.

I do however agree it is a hobby of diminishing returns and that outlay for marginal improvements is ridiculous, however some basic facts do apply in the coffee world, the end result is only as good as the raw material you put in, so great beans on a great grinder, can produce great shots on a low end machine, however the same cannot be said in reverse, as if the bean is rubbish, the shot will invariably be rubbish and if the grind consistency is poor, that great bean is wasted. So I believe the greatest improvements to be had in coffee are beans and grinders, then machines just keep the improvement going but not in such vast ways.


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## photojonny (Jun 9, 2013)

Thanks for the reply. I guess my question is/was do you think an 'untrained' palate could tell the difference between a Classic/Mini and the top end stuff? Or is only apparent to those, such as yourself, who have tasted an awful lot of coffee and thus are more sensitised to small differences in flavour/quality? (I think your answer is yes, the difference in apparent?)

I just ask because I suspect in a blind test I wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a £6 and £60 bottle of wine, or a £25 and £100 bottle of whisky. Do you think a good grinder and machine can make such a perceptible difference to an espresso shot to someone who has relatively little experience (in a blind test to prevent the halo effect from the expensive kit)?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Well as this is off topic, why not start a new thread and see what the concensus is, I am fairly confidant that I could get you to taste a difference, whether your palate would appreciate the complexity of the "better" shot, remains to be seen.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

photojonny said:


> Do you think a good grinder and machine can make such a perceptible difference to an espresso shot to someone who has relatively little experience (in a blind test to prevent the halo effect from the expensive kit)?


It's about developing your nose and taste buds. With persistence you will begin to develop a palate if you've a mind to. Most people, sadly, aren't that bothered about what their coffee tastes like but I guess what members on this forum have in common is a respect for and love of fine coffee. Great coffee doesn't demand expensive kit either. There are great second hand bargains out there for the savvy buyer.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Completely agree patrick, i recently moved on my Bosco and Mythos combination, £5,500 if purchased new, yet I paid less than a new cherub, mazzer mini combo for them both!!


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## photojonny (Jun 9, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Well as this is off topic, why not start a new thread and see what the concensus is, I am fairly confidant that I could get you to taste a difference, whether your palate would appreciate the complexity of the "better" shot, remains to be seen.


Sorry for hijacking the thread, probably best discussed elsewhere. And I appreciate the offer of an education 



The Systematic Kid said:


> It's about developing your nose and taste buds. With persistence you will begin to develop a palate if you've a mind to. Most people, sadly, aren't that bothered about what their coffee tastes like but I guess what members on this forum have in common is a respect for and love of fine coffee. Great coffee doesn't demand expensive kit either. There are great second hand bargains out there for the savvy buyer.


I guess that was my (off topic) point - whether as a newbie I should forget about 'decent' kit and try to develop my ability to appreciate coffee first (by trying lots of different beans, quality cafes etc?)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

The espresso I got round at Patricks off the L1 was far superior to what I could achieve on my silvia ,and we used the same beans . True his hg1 out burrs my magnum ,but the magnum is no slouch in the grinder department. The texture ,the mouth feel and the flavours stayed with me all the way home ,


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

photojonny said:


> I guess that was my (off topic) point - whether as a newbie I should forget about 'decent' kit and try to develop my ability to appreciate coffee first (by trying lots of different beans, quality cafes etc?)


Definitely. You'll have some real fun. Above all, trust your own palate. Check out local indie artisan coffee shops. Try their flat white. I bet you will be able to taste the difference to the offerings from Starbucks and their ilk.


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## photojonny (Jun 9, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Definitely. You'll have some real fun. Above all, trust your own palate. Check out local indie artisan coffee shops. Try their flat white. I bet you will be able to taste the difference to the offerings from Starbucks and their ilk.


I'm trying the local ones whenever I can and enjoying it. I have to stick to espresso or americano/long black as I can't have milk (blood sugar thing). I can certainly tell good from bad espresso now, looking forward to learning more about the intricacies of flavour and texture.


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## rmcgandara (Feb 12, 2013)

dfk41 said:


> If you have read the book, Shogun, you will know that Cojones is Portuguese for testicles!


dfk41 the Portuguese word for testicles is colhões. cojones is the spanish word!

I own pretty much the basic basic combo of a Carezza and a ascaso i2-D -(I'm on the crap side of the story) still happy with the shots I can pull, but would be happier to upgrade!

I would welcome a side by side tasting









I agree with most about palate development, but like it was said a lot of people don't care.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I remember now. It was Rodrigues who was Portuguese but he wore in Spanish! I would say my palate is under developed compared to many, but even I can taste the difference in shot quality on my L1 compared to most anything else I have tried. Since owning n L1, I have had 5 other machines to experimant with, and none come anywhere nera. I had to use a gaggia Classic for a month but with an exceptionally good grinder and I did find that it was quite possible to get a consistently good shot out of the combo, but still not in the same league of course. there is a fun nday coming up at bella barista where there will be many machines available to play with. Come along and find out!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

rmcgandara said:


> dfk41 the Portuguese word for testicles is colhões. cojones is the spanish word!
> 
> I own pretty much the basic basic combo of a Carezza and a ascaso i2-D -(I'm on the crap side of the story) still happy with the shots I can pull, but would be happier to upgrade!
> 
> ...


When my new set up is sorted your more than welcome for a visit to mine.


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

Back on topic: I "upgraded" from my MC2 to a Rocky which was a right piece of crap! Thankfully I went with the Mignon and never looked back. I think new for new the Rocky is priced about the same as the Mignon but I wouldn't even compare the two they are so far apart. When I look to upgrade my set up later this year, improving on the Mignon is going to be the hardest aspect.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I have had 2 Mignons, and agree totally. Without a big jump up what do you go to next? If you have the space and inclination then yes, there are many semi or commercial grinders out there second hand, but they are not for everyone. I rather suspect though, that you will need to think about that option. Mazzers lead the way by reputation but there are lots of others out there.

Shrink has been very quiet about his Qamar, so we do not really know if it is as good as he hoped, or whether it is a pig in a poke!

I think for me, the starting point would be doser or not, then iot makes the choice a bit easier, coupled with how hands on you are, or not in my case!


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

this could possibly be an upgrade for me from a mignon , little info on it at the moment. With all the burr problems with the rr55 like the idea staying with Eureka, and i like to buy new.

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka/eureka-zenith-club-e-grinder.html


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## forzajuve (Feb 2, 2011)

glevum said:


> this could possibly be an upgrade for me from a mignon , little info on it at the moment. With all the burr problems with the rr55 like the idea staying with Eureka, and i like to buy new.
> 
> http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka/eureka-zenith-club-e-grinder.html


Yeah I did spot that and given how happy I am with my Mignon gives me confidence and brand loyalty. Especially as others are so happy with other Eureka models i.e. the Mythos. For me it is just getting a balance between physical grinder size and burr size. Next on the list is grind retention or perhaps more about how basic the mod will be required to get down to near zero retention. The only issue with the new Zenith is that I have no need for the fancy electronics which you would be paying a premium for. Would be interested in an on demand Olympus K but suspect that would be hellishly priced!


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

glevum said:


> this could possibly be an upgrade for me from a mignon , little info on it at the moment. With all the burr problems with the rr55 like the idea staying with Eureka, and i like to buy new.
> 
> http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka/eureka-zenith-club-e-grinder.html


Well buying a new RR55 you wouldn't have any burr issues and maybe the same supplier has stock of the burrs?, plus as I said I have found a couple of places the only issues have been that LF only deal with the trade and the firm I found in Dublin want 40 euros carriage which is highway robbery for 1 set of burrs but they do sell the titanium burrs for 125 euros, so a group buy might work from them, I can't afford it this year but considering buying a set of the titanium RR55 burrs next year. Dave also has said he would check in Italy about burrs, don't let this issue put you off buying what is after all a superb grinder


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## glevum (Apr 4, 2013)

Just concerned that Rossi might go down the toilet with Brasilia. Would only want original burrs in it. If struggling to get burrs now what will it be like in a few years time.


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## haz_pro (Apr 4, 2013)

I am thinking a quamar m80e for my next grinder, possibly later this year. Then next year funds permitting maybe a alex duetto machine of some sort. Here's hoping any way.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

glevum said:


> Just concerned that Rossi might go down the toilet with Brasilia. Would only want original burrs in it. If struggling to get burrs now what will it be like in a few years time.


That's why I suggested the titanium burrs, I think it would be ridiculous to imagine it would be easy to chew through a set of those very easily in a domestic situation, as an example my RR55 was made in 2009 and has been used commercially and I would guess from the state of it was still on its original burrs, they seemed to work ok-ish even then. I also don't think that all non oem burr manufacturers will be as plagued with problems like mazzer had and even then official mazzer burrs were worse than some 3rd party ones until they took manufacture back in house.


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## painty (Jul 25, 2011)

Charliej said:


> Well buying a new RR55 you wouldn't have any burr issues and maybe the same supplier has stock of the burrs?, plus as I said I have found a couple of places the only issues have been that LF only deal with the trade and the firm I found in Dublin want 40 euros carriage which is highway robbery for 1 set of burrs *but they do sell the titanium burrs for 125 euros*, so a group buy might work from them, I can't afford it this year but considering buying a set of the titanium RR55 burrs next year. Dave also has said he would check in Italy about burrs, don't let this issue put you off buying what is after all a superb grinder


Would those be OEM or aftermarket, Charliej? Not a bad price for a Ti burrset...


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

painty said:


> Would those be OEM or aftermarket, Charliej? Not a bad price for a Ti burrset...


I'm not sure if they are aftermarket or oem, not had any communication with the firm in Dublin other than browsing their website.


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