# advise regarding sage 870 single boiler



## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

Hello,

We have a tassimo at the minute which is ok for my wife as she uses it for hot chocolate. I have never been happy with the coffee it produces.

My wife is treating me to a new machine for Christmas, I have been drawn to the the sage single boiler machine by heston (due to funds).

Would this be a good starting point for a novice who would like some control over what is produced?

Rich.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Speaking from personal experience, and something that will be backed up by others (I hope). If you want coffee that you can be happy with split your budget and spend money on a decent grinder. Spend the rest on your coffee machine

I initially thought that the brown dust that you make coffee from was all the same. Well ground coffee makes a world of difference !

You mentioned a limited budget. What sort of budget are you looking to spend on your setup ?

Edit : Just realised that the 870 has an inbuilt grinder. I would consider alternatives that are separate grinder and coffee machines


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

thanks for the reply Andrew.

The budget is £550.

Rich


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Single boiler machines are fine for one and two coffees. I found with my single boiler machine that it took an age to make 4 milk drinks, waiting for the temperature and steam pressure to build up once I'd pulled the shots - it drove me mad ! If you are making one or two drinks then its isnt such a big deal and you may be able to live with this. You mention the hot chocolate which can be made really well with textured milk so good steam power should be a consideration.

Does this have to be a new machine ? With a bit of searching about you could pick up a good used Rancillo Silvia and Mazzer (or similar) grinder.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

sage advertising is really working


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

Hi Andrew

The machine does not need to be new although my concerns would be that I don't know enough about them to be able to tell a good used one from a worn out used one apart from appearance.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

Keep an eye out on this forum. The kit on here has usually been well looked after and maintained


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

I would suggest for your budget of £550 to keep an eye out in our classifieds forum for a good used Gaggia Classic which should be ~£100 which would leave you a very healthy £450 to buy a grinder and all the necessary accessories such as tamper, milk jug, scales, fresh beans etc. One member of the forum Coffeechap , strips down, refurbishes and services used grinders so buying from him is as good as buying new he could advise you better than most about a grinder to suit your needs as the grinder is more important than the machine, it would also depend on what sort of space you have in the kitchen to put the machine and grinder and whether form is more important than function, brcause an ex-commercial grinder can be made more user friendly for use in the home.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Is this the sage with the integrated grinder ( smart grinder ?)


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

yes

it most certainly is (breaking the 13 char rule with this line)


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

Thank you for all your advise.

Is the Gaggia classic a single or double boiler?

After reading Working Dogs comments regarding single boiler machines I maybe better off looking at double boiler used machines, or is this way beyond my budget?


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

The Gaggia Classic is a single boiler.

I would personally go with Charliej's advice gaggia and good grinder.

Dual boiler machines dont come along very often secondhand and would probably be a minimum £800 secondhand.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

kikapu said:


> The Gaggia Classic is a single boiler.
> 
> I would personally go with Charliej's advice gaggia and good grinder.
> 
> Dual boiler machines dont come along very often secondhand and would probably be a minimum £800 secondhand.


There is the option of HX machines which start below £800 new


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I wouldn't recommend any machine that comes with an integrated grinder ( sage or no sage ) , if it breaks you have to send off both to repair. You need to be sure that the grinder came pre shimmed do to espresso .

In reality tho as said gaggia and grinder, the way to go . If you can up to a HX even better


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

Wow what a mine field.

I would like something that I will not grow out of in a year or so. If the wife puts in £550 and I was to a couple of hundred would this be enough to get a heat exchanger set up? The reason is that we often have people round and they are latte, cappuccino types and I would rather not be standing in the kitchen 15 mins creating 4 or 5 drinks. This probably sounds picky and I may be asking way to much for my budget.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

yeah of course richie

check out the nuovo simonelli oscar. you can pick that up for 550 new


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Well the problem with even a £750 budget is, unless you get very lucky on finding a decent used HX machine is not having much left to buy a decent grinder. The suggestion of a second hand Gaggia with a good grinder has the advantage that if you do decide making espresso properly is for you, it does require time and effort to get your technique right, that you wouldn't lose much, if any money at all on a used Gaggia Classic when selling it. You could then out that other £200 into the upgrade savings fund.

A Classic shouldn't take 15 minutes to prepare 4-5 drinks, all you would have to do is pull 2 shots and steam the milk for those, then pull 2 more and steam for those.

£750 is a kind of inbetween budget it doesn't allow you enough for a new machine , accessories and a good grinder, and of the three the grinder is very important as it prepares your ingredient i.e. the bean for your machine -

garbage in = garbage out.


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

oscar and a mignon..........easy


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

Ok, I am going to get in touch with coffeechap and see what grinder options I have.

then look at the budget and look at the machine, Working dogs mentioned the Rancillo Silvia, there is on on ebay with a pid. How does this compare with the classic?

Thank you for bearing with me.


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

Fevmeister said:


> oscar and a mignon..........easy


Can you give me some more info on this?


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## Fevmeister (Oct 21, 2013)

http://www.coffeeitalia.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=nuova_simonelli_oscar_black

http://www.bellabarista.co.uk/brands/eureka/eureka-mignon-instantaneo-grinder-auto-manual-gloss-black.html


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Hi

Eureka mignion is a grinder £280 ish new , second hand £200-220. Small compact kitchen friendly , capable of espresso grinds .few people on

oscar is a HX machine , powerful steamer , new not sure £500-550. Will do you plenty of milk and espresso back to back . My need a couple of mods doing to it though even from new.


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

If youre into dinner party territory then I would look HX or Dual boiler. My earlier Silvia suggestion would not really be the best option

Youre right - its a minefield. It sounds like youre doing your homework, which I wish I had done. I didnt go the classic route but did go single boiler and sold it within a month due to switching between pulling shots and steaming being a right royal pain


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

Thanks Working Dog,

I think I would end up in the same boat, I expect it would be easier with a bigger budget.


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

richiepearce said:


> Thanks Working Dog,
> 
> I think I would end up in the same boat, I expect it would be easier with a bigger budget.


It doesnt matter if you get rid of it after a month as if you bought secondhand you wont really lose any money and you would know that you really do want to do this rather than go capsule route (which is much simpler/easier)

just over two months ago got the gaggia classic and the MC2 grinder a good starter setup about five weeks later bought a new grinder and two weeks later bought a dual boiler machine. But would I have ever bought a dual boiler machine if I hadnt bought the gaggia and MC2!?? NO there was no way 2 months ago I would spend £1100 on an espresso machine and over £300 on a grinder!! But what buying that first setup did was show me that I enjoyed the faff the frustration and the reward of good coffee and due to be impatient and having the funds I upgraded!

What I am trying to say is dont spend the earth to start with its like when buying anything you can always say well if I spent another £200 I can get xyz and you lose sight of the fact you where only going to spend £50 to start with and upped your budget once by £200 now considering upping it another 200 so you have gone for 50 to 450 just like that!!! Anyway enough waffling!


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## 4515 (Jan 30, 2013)

kikapu said:


> It doesnt matter if you get rid of it after a month as if you bought secondhand you wont really lose any money and you would know that you really do want to do this rather than go capsule route (which is much simpler/easier)
> 
> just over two months ago got the gaggia classic and the MC2 grinder a good starter setup about five weeks later bought a new grinder and two weeks later bought a dual boiler machine. But would I have ever bought a dual boiler machine if I hadnt bought the gaggia and MC2!?? NO there was no way 2 months ago I would spend £1100 on an espresso machine and over £300 on a grinder!! But what buying that first setup did was show me that I enjoyed the faff the frustration and the reward of good coffee and due to be impatient and having the funds I upgraded!
> 
> What I am trying to say is dont spend the earth to start with its like when buying anything you can always say well if I spent another £200 I can get xyz and you lose sight of the fact you where only going to spend £50 to start with and upped your budget once by £200 now considering upping it another 200 so you have gone for 50 to 450 just like that!!! Anyway enough waffling!


I get that - and its a sensible way for people to dip their toe in the water. On the same score, if they bought £550 worth of used equipment from this forum they wouldnt lose on it, should they decide it wasnt for them.

I suppose it all depends on the amount of money that can be justified to blow on making coffee. Its not that often that equipment comes up for sale on here where people have bought the gear and then decided that coffee is not for them. I'd say that the majority of sales are due to upgrades.


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

I have really appreciated all the advise received, and am of the opinion that I should buy the best used that I can stretch to, that way if I want to upgrade in the future I will have a better machine to sell.

Just waiting to hear from coffeechap regarding the grinder.


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

OK,

After lots of thread reading,reviews,you tube and eye strain.

The budget is out the window the machine choices are between cherub and oscar, with a used mazzer or mignon, there are a few grinders on the bay at the mo.

Will the extra cost of the cherub be warranted?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

From what has been said about both machines on here I would imagine you could achieve very similar results if you wanted an Oscar the best place to buy one from would probably be Elektros.it, they are an Italian firm based right next door ro Nuova Simonelli and could sell you an Oscar with both the anti vacuum valve and OPV mods already performed and without invalidating the warranty, several members have bought from there and rate it very highly, I'm not sure where else sells the Oscar, but with both mods done it apparently rates as highly as the Nuova Simonelli Musica. The looks of both machines are bit marmite, but the advantage of an Oscar is that the different colours don't add to the cost.

I don't know what the price of either machine is but as they are both capable machines I would suggest going with whichever one leaves you the most left over to put towards the grinder.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

OK so from Elektros.it an Oscar complete with both OPV and Anti Vacuum Valve ( this lets you use the machine on a timer as otherwise you are supposed to open the steam wand a little when you start it up) for £553.07 delivered or with both those mods and the Sirai professional pressure stat as well for £603.69 delivered, although this second version isn't strctly necessary just the iceing on the cake.


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## richiepearce (Dec 13, 2013)

Thank you Charliej.

I am looking at the elektros site at the moment, would you say the performance of the machines are fairly similar and have you heard of any problems with after sales care from elektros as they are based in Italy?


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

As far as I am aware no-one has had any issues with buying from them although maybe worth a pm to check and see if the Nuova Simonelli uk distributor would be able to deal with any warranty issues or whether it was a return to Italy job.

Just to add regarding the Cherub people seem to have got good deals on those from both Peter at Espresso Underground and from Coffeebean Van and Roaster.


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