# Are VST baskets really all that?



## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm relatively new to espresso brewing and I'm working on getting consistent, good tasting shots (I'm waiting for a bottomless PF to arrive so I can fit my scales underneath and start measuring brew ratio). So far, the advice here has been excellent so I'm hoping you can help me once more.

I've spent the last couple of hours reading through lots of threads here, and elsewhere, about VST baskets and it seems like the same thing crops up again and again. People seem to either swear by them or complain that they're really hard work. The thing is, I'm not sure I see the point. I appreciate that stock baskets will be made to broader tolerances but does it really make that much difference?


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## Neill (Jun 26, 2013)

I think it does make a difference but get it wrong and it goes really wrong- they are far less forgiving. Also helps to have a 58.4mm tamper tho not essential.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Plus there are now these IMS competition shower screens and baskets to throw into the mix, but we'll know more about those once the order has arrived and all mailed out to everyone.


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

I couldn't tell you if they are any better than other OEM baskets out there, I use it because it is a known entity. I took me quite a while to get to grips with and I never compared before and after because the grind requirements are so different, maybe I'll revisit one of these days. I am also looking forward to testing the IMS competition baskets that CharlieJ is sorting for us.

Spence


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

IMS baskets look a better idea cos they don't require purchasing a new tamper. I've ordered one for my Fracino Classic and it's the same 58mm as my factory basket so money saved straight away


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Jason the IMS screen you have put down in the list is a 51.5mm one doesn't the Fracino group use a standard E61 screen? I know the IMS website says the one you're after fits Fracino but please check.


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## rodabod (Dec 4, 2011)

I bought a La Marzocco (VST) basket, and the main advantage I found is that they offer greater extraction, since they present less resistance, thus allowing a finer grind. This is good for light roasts. It was marginally more likely to spritz when I first used it, but it's fine now. Overall, I'd recommend getting the cheaper LM model.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Jason the IMS screen you have put down in the list is a 51.5mm one doesn't the Fracino group use a standard E61 screen? I know the IMS website says the one you're after fits Fracino but please check.


Ah ok will do mate. Nice shout there.


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

Charlie, just checked and the ones EspressoUnderground sell are 52mm so I suppose it's right. Thanks for the heads up though.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

ARe you sure those aren't the Piccino ones I had a look and a lot of places show the E61 style screen for Fracino machines, the sure fire way to tell I drop it, or take a look to see if it has a screw holding it on, if it doesn't it's the E61 screen


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## Jason1wood (Jun 1, 2012)

No screw. So how do I measure? It screen itself or the inner diameter? Think you may be right Charlie. Will drop it tonight and measure. Cheers again


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Ok if there's no screw its easy it's the E61 screen, I need to pm Michaelg to let him know about that too


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Ok. Back to the ops original question. This has gone completely off topoc here guys.

Earwax I can lend you a 15 and 18g vst if you want to try them out for 2 weeks. . Will only need to pay the postage back.

Pm me if your interested in taking me up on this.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

http://mattperger.com/The-Downward-Spiral-of-Death


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Mrboots2u said:


> Ok. Back to the ops original question. This has gone completely off topoc here guys.
> 
> Earwax I can lend you a 15 and 18g vst if you want to try them out for 2 weeks. . Will only need to pay the postage back.
> 
> Pm me if your interested in taking me up on this.


Sorry Martin I needed to let Jason know about the screens and saw he had posted on here minutes before I posted to him.


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## steveop (Jan 20, 2014)

Sorry to hijack this but can I ask what in particular the VSTs are less forgiving of? I am a complete novice but have bought a VST and appropriate sized tamper on the (naive) basis that these seemed to the best baskets. I am now worried that I have bitten off more than I can chew as many people have said they are difficult to use. What in particular do I need to be careful of?


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

steveop said:


> Sorry to hijack this but can I ask what in particular the VSTs are less forgiving of? I am a complete novice but have bought a VST and appropriate sized tamper on the (naive) basis that these seemed to the best baskets. I am now worried that I have bitten off more than I can chew as many people have said they are difficult to use. What in particular do I need to be careful of?


I think the issue is they are less forgiving if your shot prep technique is poor/inconsistent. This for me mainly showed itself as channelling and so made it tough to get consistent shots.


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## garydyke1 (Mar 9, 2011)

You need to grind finer for an appropriate flow rate, or perhaps they allow you to grind finer .

Finer the grind the more difficult to work with and requires more attention with respect to prepping the shot, distribution etc


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## steveop (Jan 20, 2014)

Thanks. I don't currently have a bottomless porterfilter - is this going to be helpful i.e. better at identifying channelling with my VST or adding another piece of complex equipment to someone who isn't entirely sure what they're doing at the moment?!


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## kikapu (Nov 18, 2012)

You will be able to see if you have channelling by looking at the puck after the shot and you will be able to tell by the fact some of your shots will run fast/slow even though you haven't changed anything.

A bottomless pf would be useful but I have found that its nice to see where your problem areas are dead spots etc but found it hard to rectify the issues at the moment am using the bpf to work out a shot prep and tamping routine that gives the most consistent shots.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Just found this:

http://www.fivesenses.com.au/blog/2013/02/06/andy-vst-baskets


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> Just found this:
> 
> http://www.fivesenses.com.au/blog/2013/02/06/andy-vst-baskets


Have you seen the prices on that website $AU 2500 for a tank only Brewtus !! over $AU 1K for a Mazzer Mini-e


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

steveop said:


> what in particular the VSTs are less forgiving of? I am a complete novice but have bought a VST and appropriate sized tamper on the (naive) basis that these seemed to the best baskets. I am now worried that I have bitten off more than I can chew as many people have said they are difficult to use. What in particular do I need to be careful of?


VST filters have a flat, wide bottom with holes covering the entire bottom surface. This makes them more efficient than many other filters at extracting solids from your coffee grounds. Since the in-vogue lighter-roasted coffees tend to be difficult to extract, one advantage of VSTs is that they can more easily make pleasing, balanced shots from these coffees.

The downside is that the same properties making them more efficient at extraction make them more demanding of your grinder and shot prep. You must distribute your coffee dose very evenly over that broad bottom without lumps or low spots.



steveop said:


> I don't currently have a bottomless porterfilter - is this going to be helpful i.e. better at identifying channelling with my VST or adding another piece of complex equipment to someone who isn't entirely sure what they're doing at the moment?!


The bottomless portafilter will help if you use it to make modest improvements in your dose/distribution technique.

The bottomless portafilter will hinder you if you obsess about perfect *looking* extractions. Mediocre-looking extractions can taste a lot better than perfect-looking extractions, it all depends on the extraction parameters.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Andy do you know anything about these IMS Competition series baskets and shower screens?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Andy do you know anything about these IMS Competition series baskets and shower screens?


I've been using an IMS shower screen for a few days and I like it. I haven't done an A/B comparison of espresso made with and without it, and I wouldn't expect much of a difference there. But it does keep the inside of my group cleaner, and that is a good thing.

Re: the IMS filter baskets, I haven't tried them.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Thanks for that Andy. I guess we'll find out about the baskets when I get this group buy sorted. Which version of the screen did you go for integrated or woven?


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Charliej said:


> Which version of the screen did you go for integrated or woven?


I believe it's an integrated version for E61 groups.


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## Charliej (Feb 25, 2012)

Yeah thats the integrated one, someone is making a lot of money on these IMS things given I can do either the baskets or screens for £12( unless you're one of these weirdos that needs 53mm baskets and screens to fit too) and thats on an entry level discount structure with this supplier.


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## AndyS (May 12, 2012)

Yup, your price seems really good to me.


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## EarwaxUK (Jan 19, 2014)

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread, it's turned out to be a lot more interesting than I thought.

It's interesting - before I started brewing espresso, I'd never realised just how technical it can be.

It seems like quite a lot of people use VST (and other precision) baskets and get more consistent extractions. I'm waiting on a bottomless portafilter to arrive from eBay and I will need to get myself into the swing of using that but it looks like, once I'm brewing consistently with the BPF, some VSTs might improve consistency further.


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