# If I up my budget to £1000, what should I consider beyond Lelit MaraX?



## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

@MediumRoastSteamgot me thinking about my first proper machine and gave me a lot to ponder.

I realised how much coffee really is a passion of mine, and I am prepared to spend double my original budget to get a machine that will last a long time!

I have ordered a Niche Zero but it's not due until December.

I love the history of the E61 Group Head, and my research has lead me to the Lelit MaraX. Also, when I first saw it on the Lelit site, my gut said yes. I have looked into the required cleaning and maintenance and am ready to care for it properly. I also like the fact I can make it look even more beautiful with the wooden kit (a good candidate for a Christmas present!)



I like to make a Latte in the morning (two when my girlfriend is over)


I will be trying a few different beans, but once I find one I like and dial it in, I'll stick to it for a while (not jump between beans daily)


I want to experiment with decaff beans (I am a bit caffeine sensitive so can only have caffeine once or twice a day)


Enjoy the idea of using the exact dose and timing the shot each time (best cheap scales with timer, auto timer if measuring from when liquid hits?)


I drink plant based milk, I know Latte art is harder, but will the Lelit give me the microfoam I need?


I'm enjoying the search, but once I decide, be good to get the machine soon incase they get harder to get. Should I be cheeky and ask for a bonus item with my order e.g. IMS shower head or basket, since I'm so out my budget?

If there's a machine in the price range other than the MaraX, what is it, and in what ways would it be better?

I assume Bella Barista are a good place to buy it from, https://www.bellabarista.co.uk/lelit-marax-espresso-machine.html - will it stay £950 for a while?

Are there any other places to consider?

Are there any other Lelit MaraX owners here that had a similar dilemma, how happy are you with your machine? I feel very fortunate to be able to stretch top a MaraX, so don't think I would be disappointed with it at all. I just haven't researched this price range as much since it was a recent decision to increase it. Thank you all for your help, the forums have been fantastic.


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## Blue_Cafe (Jun 22, 2020)

E61 is old, old tech.

Massive yawn.

There are bolt ons and strap ons to make it work but it's just sticking plasters.

I believe that the industry reluctance to move away from it is because it's just the horse to the chrome plated carriage that the industry can really get margin on with high prices.

I'd buy something that at least tries to embrace modern tech.

The Sage DB comes to mind, as does the Decent.

Edit: I know nothing so take with a pinch.

Look to @dfk41 for advice!


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@allyburns - The MaraX is a great choice. The alternative in the Lelit range - which cannot be beaten in terms of price vs functionality - is the Lelit Elizabeth. Think like this: The Elizabeth being an entry level dual boiler, the MaraX being the top of the range of the HX machines.

There's a whole thread here about the MaraX and the Elizabeth. And some owners of the MaraX wished they had the Elizabeth - The MaraX came first... The bottom line is that both machine are as capable as each other. I'd say the Elizabeth is more capable than the MaraX, but the MaraX is just more traditional, better components, better finish, better lots of things, and, at the same time, more simple, less things to go wrong. The reasons I chose the Elizabeth over the MaraX was:

- Space constraints (The Elizabeth's wide and shallow, whereas the MaraX is deep and narrow). 
- Fast heat up time: I just want a cup of coffee when I want one. I don't want to wait 35-40 minutes. 
- Less maintenance: I just... Backflush it. There's no need for anything else apart from keeping it clean. But lubing the cam is no bother, really. After a few times it will take 15 minutes in total... Once every 6 weeks. Big deal.

Now, I read and followed that MaraX thread from the very beginning, because I really wanted that machine... Until the Elizabeth came.* One thing to note about the MaraX is that it dumps a significant amount of water into the drip tray compared to some other machines. *This is because the return of the expansion valve is not back to the tank, but into the drip tray. Some people measured and they say that, after 5/6 flat whites, they have 500ml into their drip tray. That's NOT the case with the Elizabeth: It has two hoses that go into the tank: One to take water to the pump and the other to return the excess from the expansion valve. In the MaraX, you just slot the tank in, no hoses. Simples.

So you might ask... "I don't care about water in my drip tray! I just empty and that's it. What's the big deal?" Well, most of us, who want to look after our machines, use what we call "Boiler friendly" water. This is sometimes not the most tasty water for coffee - after all, it's better if the water have minerals in it, like magnesium and calcium. However, those will cause scaling issues, and, over time, will destroy your machine. Yes, you can descale, but really, you want to avoid it. So we tend to use bottled water: Volvic, or Tesco's Ashbeck, or Waitrose Essentials. It will scale eventually, but it will take a few years. Or... You can have a reverse osmosis system and re-mineralise the water - like, the Osmio Zero. So, if you use bottled water, the MaraX will waste quite a bit. Unfortunately.

I take you watched and read DavecUK's reviews of the MaraX and the Elizabeth? 
https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com

Now, to answer some of your points in your post:

- The MaraX or the Elizabeth will give you no problems with steaming milk or using different coffees. Not a problem at all. But remember: It's a skill in which requires some practice. Don't expect to just have perfect microfoam on day one! If you drink plant base drinks, I believe Oat milk is the best for texturing. I'm not a fan. However, I've tried and got very good results.

- You can always ask them for a discount or to throw something in. Worse case you'll get a no.... 🙂. The price of the MaraX has been £949 for a while now. We live in a capitalist society, where supply and demand balance the books. Who knows if the price will remain the same....

MaraX thread:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/48398-mara-x/?do=embed#comments

Elizabeth thread:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/53045-new-upgraded-lelit-on-the-block-elizabeth/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=755911&embedComment=755911&embedDo=findComment#comment-755911


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

@MediumRoastSteamI've spent the last 45 minutes reading DavecUK's Elizabeth review, and watching the videos, and am warming to it, for similar reasons to yourself. I dont have a huge kitchen and it sitting further back gives me more room to work in.

I do like how it is shallower, it actually makes the MaraX look like it sticks out loads as he has them side by side. As @Blue_Cafesaid, E61 is pretty old, 1961 is a long time ago! Maybe I will get fed up lubing those cams each time!

I'm a software developer and do like the look of the LCC electronic control system, especially the fact it receives updates.

I live in Edinburgh, Scotland where the water is a bit softer, but have thought about the best water to add to the machine. I feel bad buying bottled water, so this is an area I'll research a bit more, but its a very important subject indeed!

I can look up my water quality but don't know how to interpret it yet - https://www.scottishwater.co.uk/your-home/your-water/water-quality/water-quality

You can look up EH99 1SP - not my postcode, its the parliament's, but we get the same supply 😀

Now that I'm now thinking between the Elizabeth and MaraX it seems my budget has creeped up again! The MaraX definitely looks quite special, but the Elizabeth might fit my needs better, and I like the mixture of high tech dials and display in a clean, industrial body.

I can't see many other dual boiler machines offering what the Elizabeth gives you for £1,149. Surely the Elizabeth would last 10 years or more without problems (with serviceable parts changed as required)

I don't think I would need an upgrade from something like the Elizabeth, with the control it offers, great steaming and a double boiler. I'm not going mega barista, I just want to find some coffees I love and have them dialled in to get the best flavour I can with them - correct dose, tamping, grain size, ratio and brew temperature. All things I can achieve with the Elizabeth and Niche Zero!

Exciting times ahead! Thanks for explaining your thought process between the MaraX and Elizabeth too, it's extremely valuable. I've only spend time reading some of the MaraX thread, will read the Elizabeth one now.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@allyburns - I'm also a Software Engineer. 👋. 
It's interesting how price works.

https://www.lamacchinadelcaffe.com/en/home.html - MaraX is more expensive than the Elizabeth. You can get the Elizabeth there for EUR 1,040. 
but then again.... if something goes wrong.... I know I can call Bella Barista and they will sort me out. They've done in the past. It's tricky, I understand. But in the grand scheme of things, as you say, 10 years.... when you think about mobile phones and how much they cost.... and how long they last... and the residual value of nothing after a couple of years..... or even a car service, or a car itself.... a coffee machine is not actually that bad!

if you want to tweak temperature, pre-infusion etc... the Lizzy is the right one. If you want something more standard, that you can expand on by adding flow valves, thermometers... then get an E61 machine.

I see budget is a major thing for you. My advice to you is: if money is short or tight, please, don't do it. As any hobby, this will cost you. You'll need accessories too, don't forget. Think as a long term investment, but remember it's a non-essential item, so don't go over, financial wise, if you shouldn't. (I'm sounding like grandad now!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣)

If you were nearer, I'd happily show you the machine. And I'm sure we would talk about some other geeky nonsense too! 👍

The other option you have is to go second hand. If you buy something well looked after and carry on looking after it, then you can eventually resell it for a similar value. I'm other words, you won't need to deal with depreciation as much, and would have had fun during your time of ownership for when you decide to upgrade. If you stick to 58mm groups, E61 compatible, then you will also be able to reuse the accessories, so no money wasted there.

decisions, decisions, decisions!

whatever you decide... don't rush it. Think pragmatically, debug, put the right breakpoints... Think of the use cases, upgrades, support and the life cycle. Test it. Don't rush it. Avoid those nasty bugs. Change can be expensive. 😉

Edit: And when you have made your mind up... Commit to it and don't look back (No rollback 😂😂😂😂) - just enjoy your new setup and all the nice coffee!


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## Bobbrown (Sep 16, 2020)

Join the Bianca club, we'd love to have you.

Sorry, that's probably not very helpful.

I love a beautiful shiny e61, it's a design classic and a pleasure to use. However a descent dual boiler at that price would be tempting.

Wait... That's not helpful either...


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

...and so my journey has reached the next major milestone. It began 12 parsecs past the Outer Rim, in the starship Silvercrest, a craft that produced temperatures so low it had to be measured in degrees Kelvin. A vessel as inconsistent as an MPs interpretation of the Covid guidelines, as leaky as as disgruntled ex-NSA contractor in a secure hotel room with a fine bottle of whisky and a secured fibre connection, and as pleasurable as a dip in a bath full of sea urchins and vinegar.

Paired with a spinning-bladed De'longhi that made as much mess as a red bull drinking bull in a china shop, that retained more coffee beans than are thought to exist in the observable universe, its earliest preserved grains have to be carbon dated and preceed the BC Gregorian calendar; a new flight path had to be set.

Guided towards the solar system IT Lelit, two planets appeared strong on my radar - planets HX MaraX 62X and DB Elizabeth 92T. Both had such a strong gravitational pull that the ships hull was literally creaking with the strain of the draw of their immensely powerful, intersecting orbits.

Then came Jedi @MediumRoastSteam, who took me in, a (not-so) young padewan, inexperienced in the ways of the extraction. He taught me to use the force to strengthen my mind, see clearly the mission at hand and be untempted by all that is shiny and old.

As I fought the temptation of the dark side (Sage and anything other than a 58mm portafilter), I studied the writings and projections of Great Master @DavecUK in the Great Jedi Library. I carefully considered each pro and con, and deeply questioned my wants and desires over the next few millennia (well 10 years or so!)

After much meditation and star-gazing, one planet flared brighter than the other, and sent out a decisive beacon of hope and clarity. That planet was the DB Elizabeth 92T. I set course, jumped into hyperspace and landed briskly at supply depot Bella Barista. I tried to barter with them... somehow my Jedi mind tricks did not work on them, but rest assured I will receive some free coffee with the purchase of my new starship, ...er espresso machine. A shipment of 8 is being smuggled in aboard a light freighter on Stardate 1607607420 so the clock is ticking!

I must amass the required tools to brew the perfect cup of latte - flying saucers optional. This evening however I will enter the cryotube to recharge the heavily depleted frontal cortex of my brain! Thanks all again who helped me on my journey - may the force be with you!


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## Norvin (Sep 10, 2014)

I'll have a pint of whatever he's drinking.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

@allyburns- choice good made you have, hmm..... Tamper 58.4mm acquire you must, and milk jug too, bare minimum essentials hmm...

DavecUK forum left has he, **************** new habitat now, hmm...

Good luck on your journey, from a not-such-big-star-wars-fan. 😂


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## Katfud (Sep 27, 2020)

@allyburns

with some budgeting assumptions that would make Trump blush, I've managed to justify to myself a MaraX and Eureka Mignon Specialita. Excited to see how this all turns out!

Good luck with dual boiler!


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## fraserrl (Oct 18, 2020)

Hope you enjoy the acquisition - that's an incredible pairing!


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

Katfud said:


> @allyburns
> 
> with some budgeting assumptions that would make Trump blush, I've managed to justify to myself a MaraX and Eureka Mignon Specialita. Excited to see how this all turns out!
> 
> Good luck with dual boiler!


 Amazing, I'm having loads of fun so far, I don't have my Niche grinder yet but am doing mad things with my blade grinder to get good results, some of the time.

Mostly involves a lot of shaking, and a bit of sieving. I can actually get 9 - 10 bars of pressure from the grind but it's very inconsistent, and messy. Will make me enjoy the Niche workflow so much more.

Also, don't even have a proper tamper yet, as I can't decide if I definitely need a VST basket, which is 58.4 vs 58mm. Also considering one of the ones with the pressure indicator for consistency since I'm new to non-pressurized baskets, but I assume the people in the forum might think its a bit for noobs? I'll look for a post on the topic or post one perhaps. I don't want to end up buying things twice so trying to thing through every additional purchase.

Do you have your order yet?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

allyburns said:


> as I can't decide if I definitely need a VST basket, which is 58.4 vs 58mm.


 Both baskets take a 58.4mm tamper just fine. IMO, a 58mm tamper is a thing of the past these days. A dynamometric tamper is "cool", and I had them in the past. I very much prefer a box standard tamper these days!

So yeah, go and get yourself a 58.4mm tamper. 🙂 - You'll need it.

https://www.blackcatcoffee.co.uk/products/motta-competition-58-4mm-flat-bottom-wood-tamper?_pos=3&_psq=tamper&_ss=e&_v=1.0

£23.50 - Bargain!

And no, you do not need a VST basket, not to start with at least. Let it be part of your journey as you get to know your machine and the art of making espresso.


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## allyburns (Sep 27, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Both baskets take a 58.4mm tamper just fine. IMO, a 58mm tamper is a thing of the past these days. A dynamometric tamper is "cool", and I had them in the past. I very much prefer a box standard tamper these days!
> 
> So yeah, go and get yourself a 58.4mm tamper. 🙂 - You'll need it.
> 
> ...


 As usual, terrific advice, thank you! I'll think a bit more about the type of tamper that's best then get myself a* 58.4mm tamper*. I know a standard one is probably all I need, but the "dynamometric tamper" would give me a feel for the pressure. Decisions decisions!

Of course it would be nice if the tamper handle matches the* bottomless portafilter* handle (that I don't own yet!).

It probably only makes sense to get one of these once I get the Niche, and as well as looking cool, am I right in thinking its good to diagnose flow?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

allyburns said:


> As usual, terrific advice, thank you! I'll think a bit more about the type of tamper that's best then get myself a* 58.4mm tamper*. I know a standard one is probably all I need, but the "dynamometric tamper" would give me a feel for the pressure. Decisions decisions!
> Of course it would be nice if the tamper handle matches the* bottomless portafilter* handle (_that I don't own yet!_).
> It probably only makes sense to get one of these once I get the Niche, and as well as looking cool, am I right in thinking its good to diagnose flow?


Yeah. Wait until you get the Niche for the bottomless. It's good to diagnose your technique and, more important, very easy to keep it clean!

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

allyburns said:


> As usual, terrific advice, thank you! I'll think a bit more about the type of tamper that's best then get myself a* 58.4mm tamper*. I know a standard one is probably all I need, but the "dynamometric tamper" would give me a feel for the pressure. Decisions decisions!
> 
> Of course it would be nice if the tamper handle matches the* bottomless portafilter* handle (that I don't own yet!).
> 
> It probably only makes sense to get one of these once I get the Niche, and as well as looking cool, am I right in thinking its good to diagnose flow?


 With VST and IMS baskets you'll want a 58.5 tamper. Possibly a 58.55. If going for IMS you might even want bigger than that! (Torr do ones to fit IMS and VST)

I'd look at the Bravo tamper and distribution tools. You can order them direct from the maker via Instagram. You apparently receive a very good service and quick delivery. They are expensive but errr....I don't know how to finish that sentence. I don't regret buying either of my Torr tampers, they're nice to use, nice to look at, ornamental and functional.


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