# What to upgrade first??



## Crippy (Sep 30, 2017)

Hi guys,

i currently have a Rancilio Silvia v5 paired with a Sage Smart grinder pro.

Looking to upgrade one or the other and was looking for some advice on what to upgrade first. My thinking is the grinder to either a secondhand mazzer or a Niche Zero.

cheers


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## KingoftheHeath (Nov 22, 2019)

Grinder. Most will agree


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## Mr Binks (Mar 21, 2019)

Upgrade the grinder first, this will give the most noticeable improvements and will set you up for when you upgrade the coffee machine.


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## TomHughes (Dec 16, 2019)

Oh yeh, grinder definitely.

Personally I would get a niche and PID the Silvia.


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## Crippy (Sep 30, 2017)

Thanks guys


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## Chalkey275 (Apr 20, 2020)

I'm so glad I read this..... There was a Sage Smart Grinder in the small-ads for 100 quid which nearly tempted me, for the price. They try to make it sound awesome but the majority of you guys, which I trust a lot more, say it's a polished turd LOL


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Plus 1 for grinder upgrade. I can do some good deals on the Eureka range at the moment.


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## Agentb (Feb 11, 2017)

Plus 2 for the grinder. Maybe even plus 3. All of the grinders mentioned above will make a big difference.😺


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Read the first phrase.

Answer: grinder.


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## Apr1985 (Apr 18, 2020)

Grinder for sure. A friend has a niche and a dual temp pro and gets better espresso than I can from the barista pro with the built in. 
niche is next on my list.


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

Another vote for grinder. Moving from a low end grinder to my Compak was a revelation in taste.


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## L&R (Mar 8, 2018)

Grinder + add PID to Silvia.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

TomHughes said:


> Oh yeh, grinder definitely.
> 
> Personally I would get a niche and PID the Silvia.


 What does PID mean?


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

Apr1985 said:


> Grinder for sure. A friend has a niche and a dual temp pro and gets better espresso than I can from the barista pro with the built in.
> niche is next on my list.


 I'm new & looking at an express or a pro, can you help?

Pro - easier to use with LED, more grind settings, but lose the pressure gauge

also, express needs turning on 20 mins early to heat up, how long does the pro need to warm up?


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## lacesoutdom (May 5, 2020)

Wisey said:


> What does PID mean?


 The PID (Proportional-Integral-Derivative) is a mechanism that will control the boiler heating element of the Rancilio Silvia Espresso Machine


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Fitting a PID to any coffee machine will not make it heat up quicker, what it will do is (hopefully / ideally) keep the boiler at a constant temperature as much as possible to overcome drops in boiler temp due to the nature of the manufacturers fitted temp control devices which have an element of drop set into them before they then kick in again, overshoot then cool down to far again ( find the thread on temperature surfing which applies equally to Gaggia Classic as well as Silvia)

Quality beans first, capable grinder second, machine third. In other words, you cannot polish the output with grinder / machine if rubbish to start with, can only glitter it! 

Hope of help

John


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/51025-new-to-home-espresso/?do=embed&comment=741035&embedComment=741035&embedDo=findComment


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

johnealey said:


> Fitting a PID to any coffee machine will not make it heat up quicker, what it will do is (hopefully / ideally) keep the boiler at a constant temperature as much as possible to overcome drops in boiler temp due to the nature of the manufacturers fitted temp control devices which have an element of drop set into them before they then kick in again, overshoot then cool down to far again ( find the thread on temperature surfing which applies equally to Gaggia Classic as well as Silvia)
> 
> Quality beans first, capable grinder second, machine third. In other words, you cannot polish the output with grinder / machine if rubbish to start with, can only glitter it!
> 
> ...


 And how do you know what quality beans are?

im guessing some £14 for 200g are better than Starbucks £3.50 for 200g?

Then I want this to be affordable, not costing me £2-£3 a day on coffee?


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

Because we do.


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## grumble (Mar 16, 2020)

Wisey said:


> And how do you know what quality beans are?
> 
> im guessing some £14 for 200g are better than Starbucks £3.50 for 200g?
> 
> Then I want this to be affordable, not costing me £2-£3 a day on coffee?


 Surprisingly enough there's a happy medium between those two points. You can have very nice coffee for around 20-30p a cup - significantly better than what you'd pay £3+ for on the high street.

Anything from a well regarded independent roaster will be good, even accounting for varying tastes etc


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Wisey said:


> And how do you know what quality beans are?
> 
> im guessing some £14 for 200g are better than Starbucks £3.50 for 200g?
> 
> Then I want this to be affordable, not costing me £2-£3 a day on coffee?


 You do not have to pay £14 for 200 g beans to enjoy good coffee. You need freshly roasted beans from a reputable roaster (plenty of information here), good grinder and the coffee machine needs to be capable to extract the juice from the ground coffee. The latter does not need to cost an arm and a leg and yet you can end up with excellent coffee in the cup. There is a learning curve but the reward is there waiting for you .


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

John Yossarian said:


> You do not have to pay £14 for 200 g beans to enjoy good coffee. You need freshly roasted beans from a reputable roaster (plenty of information here), good grinder and the coffee machine needs to be capable to extract the juice from the ground coffee. The latter does not need to cost an arm and a leg and yet you can end up with excellent coffee in the cup. There is a learning curve but the reward is there waiting for you .


 So is the sage express or pro a good starting point at £550/£600 or you recommend something else?

looking at these gaggia which seem to be popular - but they're like 10 years old...surely outdated?


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Wisey said:


> And how do you know what quality beans are?
> 
> im guessing some £14 for 200g are better than Starbucks £3.50 for 200g?
> 
> Then I want this to be affordable, not costing me £2-£3 a day on coffee?


 When they say 'good beans' they mean from well regarded independent roasters, not supermarket beans. Doesn't have to be expensive. For instance:

https://ravecoffee.co.uk/products/the-italian-job-blend?variant=3151005548570

That's a good bean many people like on this forum. £5 for 250g is 36p a cup. Get a few bags from a roaster to save more, use discount codes found in the 'Deals' section of this website, sign up to newsletters from roasters, it will all save you money on beans.


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Wisey said:


> So is the sage express or pro a good starting point at £550/£600 or you recommend something else?
> 
> looking at these gaggia which seem to be popular - but they're like 10 years old...surely outdated?


 Gaggias are liked because they are 'workhorses'. Well built and built to last. You can repair them, mod them, buy parts easily. What's less talked about is is the coffee actually any better than a Sage entry level machines. Some say it is, some say it isn't. What's more of an indicator is how much you spend on the grinder that goes with it. The idea is you're at a low budget and so *combined with a good grinder*, the Gaggia is better. It's not really about just the machine itself (although the machine needs modding to make it a 'good version' of it, check the forum for what extras people recommend, it also needs to be made before a certain year, the newer ones are not as good). Pair the Gaggia with a rubbish grinder and you are not doing yourself any favours.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> Gaggias are liked because they are 'workhorses'. Well built and built to last. You can repair them, mod them, buy parts easily. What's less talked about is is the coffee actually any better than a Sage entry level machines. Some say it is, some say it isn't. What's more of an indicator is how much you spend on the grinder that goes with it. The idea is you're at a low budget and so *combined with a good grinder*, the Gaggia is better. It's not really about just the machine itself (although the machine needs modding to make it a 'good version' of it, check the forum for what extras people recommend, it also needs to be made before a certain year, the newer ones are not as good). Pair the Gaggia with a rubbish grinder and you are not doing yourself any favours.


 I'm not particularly good at tinkering so modding something might not be the way for me to go?

I could brand a decent grinder & a 2nd hand gaggia off e bay but then I wouldn't have a clue how to clean/upgrade the machine


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## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Wisey said:


> And how do you know what quality beans are?
> 
> im guessing some £14 for 200g are better than Starbucks £3.50 for 200g?
> 
> Then I want this to be affordable, not costing me £2-£3 a day on coffee?


 Woh there!

Part of my response was to the original poster ( the bit about order of priorities) and the other to expand on the PID comment.

Not that I should feel the need to post a CV on experience when posting but how do I know what quality beans are is not as you suggest based solely on price either up or down. Quality term was deliberately used to leave the choice of what is quality in the mind of the reader, however as you seem to want a tighter definition, something that you enjoy could be quality to your tastebuds but not to mine (we are all different) but the accepted "definition" might fall into something not roasted to hell and back from a commodity bean that has not hit any recognised international standard or had the level of care afforded to it that a "quality" bean may have done i.e. sorted for defects, broken beans, worm holes etc. The farmer may also expect to be paid a fair price for their output thus inducing them to grow better more "quality" beans in the future.

Having roasted coffee now for a number of years, I may now have a little more knowledge than when I first started trying pre ground supermarket bean when first started getting into coffee 35 years ago (including spells abroad where chock Full o'nuts was thought of as being better than folgers or here in the UK Rombouts were way better than blend 37!!) to have a rough idea of what constitutes quality coffee hence my original ascertain that beans first, grinder second, machine third (if you have taken umbrage with this may I suggest you re read my original comment in light of what have just added)

Hope explains and remember is only a drink 

John


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## GengisKhan (May 8, 2017)

Defo don't get supermarket beans though, loads of places to get some. I go to more "mainstream" independent ones as I've had coffee in the cafes so know what I'm getting

https://www.monmouthcoffee.co.uk/

https://uk.allpressespresso.com/


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Wisey said:


> I'm not particularly good at tinkering so modding something might not be the way for me to go?
> 
> I could brand a decent grinder & a 2nd hand gaggia off e bay but then I wouldn't have a clue how to clean/upgrade the machine


 Understandable, that was a major part of my reasoning too. I got an amazing deal on my Sage BE so that's what swung it for me, but the idea of buying something second hand when I pretty much knew zero about coffee and then maybe having to source parts, research and tinker, all the while wondering if the reason my coffee isn't good is because of something I did inside with no warranty either...nah that wasn't for me.

I can build PCs, it's not like I couldn't have worked it out, I just wanted something I could hit the ground running with (and at the time I didn't even know if it was something I'd get into long term so didn't want to spend too much). Even the Sages have a learning curve, it took me a couple of months to learn how to get consistently good coffee out of it. Don't believe Sage (or anyone) when they say it's an easy to use 'day one' machine, it's not, you'll be reading this forum and asking questions for sure.

There's a bit of an agenda against Sages on this forum, try to look past that. It's basic snobbery and it's a small minority but it can put a newbie off. It did me until I read more about the machines.

If I had my time again...like I said, I got an amazing deal, a Sage BE from John Lewis for £375 so yes, I would 100% do that again. If I had £600 now to get a machine and the Sage was full price...tough one...a nicely modded fully working Gaggia Classic and a new Eureka Specialita or Silenzio is a better set up than a Sage Barista Express/Pro thanks to the grinder. The trick is getting a 'nicely modded fully working Gaggia Classic' that you have confidence in and then the ability/willingness to tinker with it/ask questions should you need to. If you think you may 'get into coffee', you have your grinder sorted then, you can look at circa £1000 machines in the years to come and probably move on your Gaggia for most of what you got it for. If you don't want any tinkering or risk - remember, if you get one from this forum the Gaggia may just work fine, have all the mods, you might not need to tinker at all - go with the Sage from John Lewis. You'll have a 2 year warranty and once you learn to use it, some really nice coffee.

EDIT: Just to be clear I don't know the differences between the BE and the Pro, you'll have to check the specs then research what they mean for that.


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## John Yossarian (Feb 2, 2016)

Wisey said:


> So is the sage express or pro a good starting point at £550/£600 or you recommend something else?
> 
> looking at these gaggia which seem to be popular - but they're like 10 years old...surely outdated?


 I cannot advise on these machines (Sage and Gaggia) as I do not own one and anything I say would not be first hand experience. There is a Sage forum section where you can pose this question, I am sure there will be people willing to help you.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

CocoLoco said:


> Understandable, that was a major part of my reasoning too. I got an amazing deal on my Sage BE so that's what swung it for me, but the idea of buying something second hand when I pretty much knew zero about coffee and then maybe having to source parts, research and tinker, all the while wondering if the reason my coffee isn't good is because of something I did inside with no warranty either...nah that wasn't for me.
> 
> I can build PCs, it's not like I couldn't have worked it out, I just wanted something I could hit the ground running with (and at the time I didn't even know if it was something I'd get into long term so didn't want to spend too much). Even the Sages have a learning curve, it took me a couple of months to learn how to get consistently good coffee out of it. Don't believe Sage (or anyone) when they say it's an easy to use 'day one' machine, it's not, you'll be reading this forum and asking questions for sure.
> 
> ...


 Thanks a lot for that mate much appreciated...

im not a tinkerer & being completely new I wouldn't know if I was being ripped off/what's good or what isn't so I think sticking to the sage would be advisable....

plus, for the average person surely this step up is enough for me...could I really taste the difference between a coffee made with a sage BE or a La marzocco, I don't think so...unless I'm gona get REALLY into it like a wine connoisseur I doubt it.

unfortunately I'm looking £550/£600 for the BE or pro, no good deals on ! I've got a bit in love2shop vouchers so that'll bring the initial outlay down

again thanks for the info


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## 24774 (Mar 8, 2020)

Wisey said:


> Thanks a lot for that mate much appreciated...
> 
> im not a tinkerer & being completely new I wouldn't know if I was being ripped off/what's good or what isn't so I think sticking to the sage would be advisable....
> 
> ...


 No problem, good luck with whatever you go for and enjoy the coffee!


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## allikat (Jan 27, 2020)

The big issue with Sage machines, isn't the machines themselves, it's with Sage the company. Some of their kit isn't as well built as it could be for the price, and when faults do happen, the company's support is... well, lacking is a mild word for it. And parts are hard to get. Many of their machines would be much better regarded if the after-sales support was better. It's the point when you're looking at an easily serviceable part that most idiots could replace on their own, and the company refuses to supply them to anyone except their authorised service people, who charge a fortune and don't do the best job either. There are folks in Oz who do supply some parts, but obviously the postage for that gets insane. People have to fight to keep their well loved machines going, and that doesn't reflect well. At some point, that spurned love turns bad and the bad rep gets spread a bit further.

In short, there's nothing at all wrong with a Sage machine while it works. The main reason to buy something else is to ensure you can fix it when it eventually stops working.


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## Wisey (May 17, 2020)

allikat said:


> The big issue with Sage machines, isn't the machines themselves, it's with Sage the company. Some of their kit isn't as well built as it could be for the price, and when faults do happen, the company's support is... well, lacking is a mild word for it. And parts are hard to get. Many of their machines would be much better regarded if the after-sales support was better. It's the point when you're looking at an easily serviceable part that most idiots could replace on their own, and the company refuses to supply them to anyone except their authorised service people, who charge a fortune and don't do the best job either. There are folks in Oz who do supply some parts, but obviously the postage for that gets insane. People have to fight to keep their well loved machines going, and that doesn't reflect well. At some point, that spurned love turns bad and the bad rep gets spread a bit further.
> 
> In short, there's nothing at all wrong with a Sage machine while it works. The main reason to buy something else is to ensure you can fix it when it eventually stops working.


 Thanks for that, really good information. I thought these things would be built to last - 10 years?


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## Kannan (Mar 28, 2020)

Wisey said:


> 10 years


 From what I've seen, most of the Sage machines (particularly the less costly ones) are made from a lot of lighter duty materials (plastic etc) that probably aren't really designed for a serviceable life of more than 5-7 years (average life of consumer electrical appliances unfortunately)... machines like the Gaggia Classic however do tend to last FOREVER lol (with care) as they are built from (largely metal or otherwise sturdy) parts that are readily available, hence you can find 2002 machines and before still for sale and often in good working order...


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## andro (May 29, 2020)

if you have good coffie you mast buy good grinder


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## Xabi17 (Jun 1, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Plus 1 for grinder upgrade. I can do some good deals on the Eureka range at the moment.


 Out of interest, as someone who seems to be involved in procurement of equipment are you finding supplies to be completely restricted at the moment? I'm looking to upgrade my grinder (for Aeropress use rather than espresso) and thought the Aerspeed or 1ZPresso JX would be suitable for my needs, but can't seem to find them anywhere. I see the MBK grinders have limited supply regardless but it seems a problem across the industry at the moment, do you know if this is the case and whether things might start picking up again soon?


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## BlackCatCoffee (Apr 11, 2017)

Xabi17 said:


> Out of interest, as someone who seems to be involved in procurement of equipment are you finding supplies to be completely restricted at the moment? I'm looking to upgrade my grinder (for Aeropress use rather than espresso) and thought the Aerspeed or 1ZPresso JX would be suitable for my needs, but can't seem to find them anywhere. I see the MBK grinders have limited supply regardless but it seems a problem across the industry at the moment, do you know if this is the case and whether things might start picking up again soon?


 Yes we are really struggling with supplies of gear coming from Italy. Hopefully things will start to open up again soon but as of this moment I would say my distributor has less than 10% of the stock they normally carry for Eureka grinders. Plus we are seeing higher demand as people are stuck at home and want to recreate their usual flat white for themselves.

We have reserved a good chunk of their next shipment (hopefully arriving this week) so we will be stocked up for a while I hope!


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## Xabi17 (Jun 1, 2020)

BlackCatCoffee said:


> Yes we are really struggling with supplies of gear coming from Italy. Hopefully things will start to open up again soon but as of this moment I would say my distributor has less than 10% of the stock they normally carry for Eureka grinders. Plus we are seeing higher demand as people are stuck at home and want to recreate their usual flat white for themselves.
> 
> We have reserved a good chunk of their next shipment (hopefully arriving this week) so we will be stocked up for a while I hope!


 Hmm, makes sense, thanks. I might have to stick with second hand and go for a Porlex Mini or something rather than an Aergrind or 1ZPresso until this dies down.


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