# Struggling with Sproline Foam Knife



## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I'm trying to learn learn how to do latte art but am struggling with making decent microfoam with the foam knife which was already fitted to the Vesuvius I bought from Ron.

When Gary was with me we dropped the steam boiler temperature/pressure as it was higher than factory and viscious. It probably is still a bit too fierce but I can vary that with the joystick easily enough.

I'm only steaming about 1/3 or just over of a 350 ml pitcher.

Up until recently my results were better but inconsistent but I wasn't following the instructions below:

https://espressoparts.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/foamknife1_how_works.png

I've been trying to follow the above. If I put the wand that close to the wall I get such a high wave the tip is left with little to no milk in which to be submerged and generally I'm ending up with not enough texture and lots of medium sized bubbles.

During the week I'm only making one to two shots a day so practicing spans a long time. I will probably try with water and a drop of washing up liquid again but advice from owners who've mastered steaming small amounts with this particular tip would be appreciated.

I'm using semi-skimmed milk if that's of relevance.


----------



## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Ok, so advance warning, I caved in and got one in the end.

Interesting manual is interesting, not seen that. I was going off @ronsil's original thread - http://coffeeforums.co.uk/archive/index.php/t-24099.html

I am turning on slowly with the tip just under the surface to create bubbles / stretch, then going for full on swirl. The first couple of times I got milk better than I have ever had before, however this was clearly beginners luck, as after this I clearly wasn't stretching enough, and got rather thin milk. I suspect I will have to try turning on slowly to add bubbles, then fairly quickly transferring to 'against wall' technique to texture.

I am, however generally steaming 550ml (but it also worked well for ~250 ml the first time I tried it too) of full fat cravendale. I am lead to believe full fat is much easier to texture than semi skimmed.


----------



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Can confirm that 'full fat' always worked better for me & the recipients loved it.

My needs at that time meant that I used medium to large jugs & with these it worked at its best. That's why I kept the steam temp high

Never had a problem with a 350 jug though. Just required a lot more care.


----------



## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Interesting that your steam PID had been changed though, as I literally ran out of steam once, and was going to ask him if he had tweaked. The burn LM steam wand seems to eat a lot more steam than the stock non-burn wand.


----------



## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Ah, missed a reply - @ronsil - did you tweak the PID or just the steam temp?


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Practice and you'll be able to use most machines , most milks ( 1 percent is pretty good ) . There is no magic bullet that will remove the skill they comes from making lots and lots drinks over a short period . Baring that go and do a latte art course at a local coffee shop .


----------



## ronsil (Mar 8, 2012)

Spoke with DavecUK quite a bit & we did some PID adjustments which worked well.


----------



## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Thanks - I don't suppose @DavecUK remembers this? I can have a play though


----------



## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Ron, the steam was fierce and probably fine for larger amounts but with the valve fully open and a small amount of milk it could easily hit the ceiling! I've knocked it down to factory settings in the advanced menu which was easy enough to do. I'll try again though having read your previous thread referred to. Where did you position the tip relative to the jug walls?

Martin, my technique had much room for improvement and more practice is required with video Gary recommended being very helpful but with regards to this thread I am referring specifically to the foam knife and the recommended technique as shown or otherwise as following the diagram has so far led to significant deterioration. If someone has mastered the use of the foam knife with small quantities of milk they might be able to point me in the right direction.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Dan my boiler is set to 1.8 bar - I steam 3-4 oz milk at a time . It's the angle you start at and how deep . No reason that you should be blowing small amounts of milk on the ceiling , as the Vesuvius isn't one of the more powerful steamers out there .

I don't have a sproline but they can't be significantly different to steaming small amounts of milk with a commercial LM or NS machine which people use .

I think I've had three different tips and arms on my machine - none were significantly easier to worse to steam with after a some slog and practice


----------



## funinacup (Aug 30, 2010)

I found it was better to keep the tip closer to the centre of the jug, not near the walls.


----------



## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Mine was set at 1.8 bar but with my tip and wand it was ferrocious. It was Gary who confirmed it, saying it was more poweful than the commercials he's using. I've now knocked it back to 1.5-1.6 bar.

I came home early today as I had to pick up my mother in law who is staying. One silver lining is that I've just had an excuse to make three coffees in a row! She prefers a latte to a flat white and filling the jug half way with milk made a world of difference. Moving the tip to the centre, starting slowly when adding air initially then sinking as I raised the power to full worked a treat and I managed a half decent albeit a bit shaky tulip. Then onto my cup with enough for a 6oz flat white and back into problems. I'll see whether I can refine it with less milk, probably by using less power but if not I may have to just waste a bit. At least I'm getting somewhere. Thanks for the help.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

You must have a significantly different Vesuvius to mine







now the l1 that was a steaming machine this V doesn't have the puff of the commercials that I've used on occasion ... anyway keep going , you shouldn't have to be using tons of milk and wasting it to get good microfoam . Just keep practising


----------



## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Do you have the foam knife and marzocco arm though? I think that's probably why it's so powerful. That said I've not used a commercial machine; it was @garydyke1 who commented on it.


----------



## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

I have a Aurelia steam tip from one of the commercial machines . I've spent a lot of cash on a lot of things that i can't possibly justify as value for money ( scales , tampers etc ) , i draw the line at £100 steam tips tho ... I just can't see for the life of me where the price comes from . This from the man that spent £90 on a tamper .

I've said it a ton of times , there is no magic bullet to good milk and latte art other than basic skill and practice . One 2 one tuition can speed it up too . All the expensive novelty jugs ( I've tied a lot , and my current jug is a £2 one from China that I got coz it's tiger striped red ) plus steam tips ,or different types of milk you can or can't steam are no substitute for doing it a ton of times back to back til you nail it .


----------



## mmmatron (Jun 28, 2014)

I struggled for ages with the Vesuvius steam, I was practically tearing my hair out and my husband could barely use it at all.

It's so different to my old machine, the angle of the wand for one is a PITA! Lots of practice and completely removing the wand for a good clean have helped a lot.


----------



## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I totally agree on the price of the tip. If it hadn't have been on the machine when I bought it I wouldn't own one. I've not tried the standard wand and tip so can't compare and wouldn't even know which of those I have is standard anyway as Ron tried and supplied several prototype wands. As I own it I might as well stick with it though as once mastered it shoud be great. In terms of jugs I must admit I quite fancy one of the Decent Espresso ones as I like the idea of a scale and also the fine tip though I'm currently using my Rhinowares copy. The thing with the decent one is that the price would be ok if it weren't for postage and the 10% off five items brings it down further to a point I would probably get one and sell my Motto. I'm also wondering about their funnel in place of my 3d printed one but would like to see one really as I haven't seen how it fits the basket etc. That said my 3d printed one does the job so I should just stick with what I have as it's easy for a lot of spending to build up on these relatively (to machines/grinders) low cost items. I have just ordered a flat base section for my Mahlgut tamper to replace the convex one though as Mahlgut offered me one at a reasonable price such that I didn't feel it worth putting my friend through the hassle of machining stainless steel to make the existing one flat. Back to milk, I shall practice, practice, practice. We have lots of friends around over the next few days and a big Oktoberfest party tomorrow afternoon/evening/probably morning so that will be another good opportunity to make back to back drinks. I'm not sure I'll be using the sifter every time though!


----------



## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Having used both a stock arm and the LM arm - the stock is no burn, thus MUCH thinner internal diameter, thus much less powerful. With the stock arm I was struggling to get a swirl going at all, even in a 500ml Motta Jug (lets not talk about the 1000ml one).

Initially I replaced with the LM arm, and the LM 4 hole tip, which was immediately more powerful, but I had a great deal of difficulty controlling it, resulting in some of the worst milk I have ever made (could have made a nice foamy beard out of one of them). Now combine that with the foam knife and woah! The power is there, but if you get it right its extremely controllable, and has resulted (as I said) in some of the best milk I have ever produced - the swirl is always great, even in the 1000ml jug, my only problem is sometimes the V running out of puff, which is why I think Ron tuned his PID more aggressively, something I will be playing with later. The boiler temperature drops off too fast, resulting in the milk never quite getting there. This doesn't always happen though, so I don't think it needs too much of a kick.

I've not played with professional machines, but the foam knife definitely puts the V steaming into another realm - I'm very happy, if a bit frustrated when I manage to bugger it up. I don't think the price is *too* much, as you said, its about the same price as my tamper - however it could do with being a whole lot cheaper. It is extremely well made though, and I am guessing the volume is not there in order to get it manufactured cheaper.


----------



## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

My basic theory if it helps.

put desired amount in your jug of choice

after purging the wand place tip into milk about 1cm

turn steam on .. then lower jug so the tip just comes away from the milk and you will hear th distinct sound of air/steam being introduced , the longer you do this for the more foam you are going to create [1-2 secs is a starting point]

once you've introduced the air/steam raise the jug back to where you started with the tip 1cm into the milk , then just hold the jug as still as possible till you get to the desired tempreture

I have tried this method on several machines and although may need adjustments for the machines characters it has always served me well as a starting point .


----------



## UbiquitousPhoton (Mar 7, 2016)

Righty ho. Here is what I found so far, and a half arsed attempt to describe it.

With the steam arm going over the spout of the jug and the tip just below the surface, turn on the power carefully. The idea here is to get air into the milk and stretch, so you should have a swirl going as well, I generally start at about half power under the milk and bring up until just hitting the surface (somebody somewhere described this as the bite point, which is quite accurate. Continue with this until the milk is stretched sufficiently. This is the tricky bit, as if you raise the tip too much you will get an enormous bloop of a big bubble, and at this point you know that basically the foam in the cup is going to be rather dense. Also, knowing how far to stretch seems to be tricky as well, as usually at the minute I am getting too MUCH foam, but this kinda wins over the opposite. Still trying on this one.

Once you are happy with the stretching (and I always seem to find myself concerned I haven't stretched enough at this stage and attempting to do some more, which is probably my downfall), then full power, and concentrate on getting the best swirl you can going (I am finding myself using the near the wall technique with bigger jugs) - power certainly isn't an issue here as it is with the stock wand, yes with smaller jugs you are going to have issues keeping the milk in the jug, but stay away from the opposite wall, and point more down rather than across. You are attempting to fold the milk to a certain extent, so some upward movement of the milk is inevitable. DON'T fill the jug more than halfway.

So yeah, too much foam, but too much foam all the way down, so I think I am getting there, just need more control, really.


----------



## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Something else worth a try, when trying to tame "super steam": run the steam wand down the spout contours dropping just below the surface, turn on steam then raise gently to introduce air. Forego trying to get a swirl going as this can lead you to suck in more air than planned, if you leave the tip pretty much just below the surface you will create a vertical "tumble" (technical term, honest!) and a much greater chance of microfoam.

I came across a comment somewhere on t'interweb about vertical rolling milk being more consistent about the time I moved from the Silvia to the Conti with its 6L boiler and commercial steam. This has stood me on good stead on the L2 and a 4 hole 1.2 or poss 1.5mm tip on a 14L boiler, and whilst a steaming monster is also controllable (lift the tip too far and its old fashioned milk shake though







)

Hope of some help, doesn't hurt to try

John


----------



## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

John, I've been using the tumble method. I'm still a bit hit and miss with it but improving. Very small amounts of milk are troublesome (say 1/4 full or less) but I'll get there. Making about 40 coffees over the last few days has helped and I'm even getting the odd fairly decent bit of art too.


----------



## johnealey (May 19, 2014)

Reading back through the thread again, you might find purging the steam wand a little longer to in effect reduce the pressure a little could help get some consistency back and then reduce the purge time back until comfortable?

Just a thought, could be way off.

John


----------

