# Thinking of a Cherub, or am I, ARG!



## Mister_Tad

Long (long) time lurker, somehow managing to not acquire upgrade-itis having lurked for several years, since what I can't imagine is that long after purchasing a Gaggia Classic in 2008.

Apologies for yet another "which machine" thread, though haven't found anything that has really validated, or otherwise, my thoughts.

I have become more aware that my Classic was purchased to a budgetary constraint that's no longer there, and I work too damn hard to not treat myself to an upgrade considering how much enjoyment I get out of coffee (2-3 neat espressos per day, however I'd be more inclined to make milky drinks if the machine had actual power when it came to steam). I've briefly considered going further down the mods road, but would still be limited by the tiny tiny boiler in the classic, so would rather start afresh (have done the easy OPV adjustment and steam wand replacement though)

The grinder will be subject to an upgrade in the near future as well, but I'm keeping that can of worms closed until I figure this one out. I'm currently using stepless Kitchenaid Proline with Mazzer burrs, and despite being a distinctly mediocre grinder in stock form is actually pretty good with the mazzer conversion - to a point where I think the Classic is the weak link to resolve first.

In terms of technique, I don't think this is my limiting factor any more, having had pretty much the same cup of espresso for several years with only a few going in the sink. I'll no doubt have to learn all over again though.

So having obsessively researched for the last several weeks, I think I probably want to go for a Cherub, but I have probably raised as many questions as I've answered so would appreciate a sanity check to my thought process - so a few of my musings:


I've not set a budget as such - machines in the £350-£1500 range have been on and off the shortlist over the last few weeks, however I think I've convinced myself I don't need to spend any more than ~£800 to get a machine that's capable of consistently producing superlative (if not godlike) coffee. And I can live with superlative if godlike is going to set me back another grand or six. And a Slayer as nice as it is might just land me with divorce papers.

I like the fact that the Cherub is built in the UK, with no shortage of suppliers, servicing and repair options. My concern over something a little more... exotic (?) is that if it goes pop it could be a pain to source parts and repairs and this wouldn't be an issue with the cherub.

It's relatively well proportioned and attractive, without looking too industrial, which always helps with SWMBO, especially since any of the options are going to be significantly larger than the Classic.

Within the arena of HX E61/clones, deciding between machines based on technical ability is really like splitting hairs, or at least I've convinced myself of this, so my qualification criteria is really based on the above three points and I've not really considered one machine "better" than another, once I decided that a Silvia wasn't enough of an upgrade and dual-boiler wasn't really going to benefit me.


I'm not averse to second hand, whether that means a cheaper Cherub or a "better" machine for the same money. I do like the warm and fuzzies of a warranty but then again my Classic has not skipped a beat in 8 years and these are not high tech pieces of equipment at the end of the day - I have an expectation that if well cared for, a Cherub or anything else akin to it would last basically forever in a domestic setting.

So - make sense? Any compelling reasons why some of others that have been on my shortlist deserve a second (fifth) look? Anything that's not an E61 HX machine that I may not have looked at to start with?

Are there any gotchas with the Cherub that wouldn't have been apparent having trawled the forums for them - small tank, slightly late low water alert, flaky drip tray. I've seen a few casual mentions of noise levels and power usage being a little unsociable, is this a valid concern, and is the Cherub any different to any other similar machine?


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## urbanbumpkin

I don't know about the pros and cons of the Cherub but there is a near new one for sale on here.

There's also an QM Andreja HX for sale for about the same price. I've restored an Andreja in the last year and managed to source parts pretty easily from Bella Barista.


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## Mister_Tad

Seeing that one for sale was part of the reason I decided to finally make my mind up, and finally start posting to make the minimum 10 posts to actually participate in the classifieds









I'll have a look at the Andreja, though I did get to a point where I had pretty much concluded that it's all much of a muchness between the myriad of E61 HX machines out there - I could well be missing something, in your view what are the differentiators for your Andreja over a machine that's say 40% less?

I'm conscious that build quality, materials and generally higher quality parts are a little bit difficult to determine on spec sheets alone, which is all I have to really go off when trying to do a side by side comparison of machines of this calibre, having been on the Classic for so many years.


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## urbanbumpkin

I've not really tried any other HX's so can't really offer advice for you.

I'm sure there's some other folk on here who could though.


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## fatboyslim

I love my Cherub to pieces. It can easily handle 11 or so milk-based drinks back-to-back without ever running out of steam (possibly running out of water though!).

I chose to buy mine partly to support UK manufacturing but also because, after owning a classic with its tiny weeny boiler, I wanted a 3 litre copper boiler that would have more steam pressure than a locomotive. Not disappointed.

A bit of a struggle to find which basket suits it best, still not 100% between EP HQ double and 15g VST.

Cherub would be a solid purchase, even second hand.


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## Mister_Tad

High praise indeed, clearly my thinking is along the right track then.

Upgrading from the Classic, any eccentricities or quirks of the machine that may take some getting used to in comparison? I'm clearly going to re-adjust how I prepare milk based drinks, as I sense I'll no longer have to wait 90 seconds for a feeble 300ml...


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## NickdeBug

Warm up time and cooling flush are the two that you may well notice


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## coffeebean

If you are thinking about a Cherub, an Ariete is also well worth a look! I can do you a great deal on both!

Andy


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## Chockymonster

NickdeBug said:


> Warm up time and cooling flush are the two that you may well notice


This is worth mentioning. Also running costs if you are keeping it on all day. 5 days at home was 27.3

Kwh on the cherub I had. Keeping that 3l boiler hot costs, my kitchen is quiet and the click and boil of the cherub was very loud.

Forgetting the cooling flush and the hour to heat up in the morning sent me down the dual boiler route, I don't steam that often so i can turn the steam boiler on when I need it.

My cherb had a fault and was an old model but I believe the internals are mainly the same.


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## fatboyslim

Chockymonster said:


> This is worth mentioning. Also running costs if you are keeping it on all day. 5 days at home was 27.3
> 
> Kwh on the cherub I had. Keeping that 3l boiler hot costs, my kitchen is quiet and the click and boil of the cherub was very loud.
> 
> Forgetting the cooling flush and the hour to heat up in the morning sent me down the dual boiler route, I don't steam that often so i can turn the steam boiler on when I need it.
> 
> My cherb had a fault and was an old model but I believe the internals are mainly the same.


I have the old model and I've never had any problems with any of the electronics. An hour to warm up is nonsense. I can get mine up to temperature in 20 minutes by backflushing the group a few times and doing warming flushes. The water in the heat exchanger will be at temperature very quickly so its just about warming the group head up.

It does use a lot of energy but once its up to temperature the element only switches on for 3-5 seconds every 90 seconds or so. This could be improved further by insulating the boiler which I will do at some point.

Also cooling flushes are not required, as Fracino see this as a design failure. Water never reaches flash point when left in the heat exchanger, like on a Rocket HX-machine for example.


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## np123

fatboyslim said:


> I have the old model and I've never had any problems with any of the electronics. An hour to warm up is nonsense. I can get mine up to temperature in 20 minutes by backflushing the group a few times and doing warming flushes. The water in the heat exchanger will be at temperature very quickly so its just about warming the group head up.
> 
> It does use a lot of energy but once its up to temperature the element only switches on for 3-5 seconds every 90 seconds or so. This could be improved further by insulating the boiler which I will do at some point.
> 
> Also cooling flushes are not required, as Fracino see this as a design failure. Water never reaches flash point when left in the heat exchanger, like on a Rocket HX-machine for example.


Using a timer is a great way of having the machine ready - you can set it to come on for an hour at a time and its ready then in a morning, and off the rest of the daym, and then on all day at weekends if you choose.

For persepctive, 27kwh for 5 days constant use is £2. So not expensive, I think most people would expect it would cost more than that! Plus if you use the timer you cut this down anyway.

With a HX you get lots of steam so making drinks for friends when round is easy peasy.


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## michaelg

Also if you are in a hurry you can wrap the group in a bar towel or similar to insulate it and twenty mins should be doable. Wemo or similar is a good idea though. Cherub is a great machine - steaming is night and day compared to the Classic - you won't look back.


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## Mister_Tad

coffeebean said:


> If you are thinking about a Cherub, an Ariete is also well worth a look! I can do you a great deal on both!
> 
> Andy


I think if the cost difference wasn't significant I would opt for the Ariete - will make sure you drop you a line when I've made up my mind











Chockymonster said:


> This is worth mentioning. Also running costs if you are keeping it on all day. 5 days at home was 27.3
> 
> Kwh on the cherub I had. Keeping that 3l boiler hot costs, my kitchen is quiet and the click and boil of the cherub was very loud.
> 
> Forgetting the cooling flush and the hour to heat up in the morning sent me down the dual boiler route, I don't steam that often so i can turn the steam boiler on when I need it.
> 
> My cherb had a fault and was an old model but I believe the internals are mainly the same.


I'm likely to get a Wemo or similar to run it, so I can have it pre-heat with my alarm in the morning, and just switch it on when I'm sat in my office and it occurs to me that I might want a coffee in the near future. My classic tends to get at least 30 minutes idling before using it at the moment just because I switch it on and then forget what I was doing. I won't be leaving it on all day though, especially not if as thirsty as that!



fatboyslim said:


> Also cooling flushes are not required, as Fracino see this as a design failure. Water never reaches flash point when left in the heat exchanger, like on a Rocket HX-machine for example.


Now that is interesting - have you measured the brew temp with and without the flush? I don't quite follow how on a technical level, an HX machine left for an extended period of time would be able to keep the brew temp right whilst still being ready for steam.

This was on the "bit of a minor pain but something I'll have to learn to live with in any case" list, no flush would be a definite bonus though, especially given the small drip tray... The Expobar Leva HX is running a close second at the moment on account for the slightly more friendly size of it, but no flush needed would all but give it the boot.



np123 said:


> For persepctive, 27kwh for 5 days constant use is £2


Crikey, who is your electricity provider, I think I'm paying twice as much!


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## coffeebean

Ariete £850 delivered......lovely wooden handles and an e61 lever group head - what's not to like? 

Andy


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## fatboyslim

Mister_Tad said:


> I think if the cost difference wasn't significant I would opt for the Ariete - will make sure you drop you a line when I've made up my mind
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I'm likely to get a Wemo or similar to run it, so I can have it pre-heat with my alarm in the morning, and just switch it on when I'm sat in my office and it occurs to me that I might want a coffee in the near future. My classic tends to get at least 30 minutes idling before using it at the moment just because I switch it on and then forget what I was doing. I won't be leaving it on all day though, especially not if as thirsty as that!
> 
> Now that is interesting - have you measured the brew temp with and without the flush? I don't quite follow how on a technical level, an HX machine left for an extended period of time would be able to keep the brew temp right whilst still being ready for steam.
> 
> This was on the "bit of a minor pain but something I'll have to learn to live with in any case" list, no flush would be a definite bonus though, especially given the small drip tray... The Expobar Leva HX is running a close second at the moment on account for the slightly more friendly size of it, but no flush needed would all but give it the boot.
> 
> Crikey, who is your electricity provider, I think I'm paying twice as much!


The E61 group design can reduce the water temp in heat exchange, or at least equilibrate it. The thermosyphon design is such that it can change brew temp by a few degrees. Also the boiler pressure is set a bit lower than the competition. If you increased max boiler pressure on the p-stat you would need a cooling flush.. Probably. I've never tried increasing pressure.


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## Chriswilson

Oh go on, you want one really!

I love mine and if it makes any difference to your deliberations if you live in a soft water area you won't need the filter.

That makes it a tad cheaper to run.

cheers, cw


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## Mister_Tad

Decided against the Cherub in the end... kind of.

The Ariete on the other hand... what's not to like?









Thanks all for the input!


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## Mister_Tad

Anyone able to give some hints as to what comes in the box with the Ariete? (Is it the same stuff as the Cherub?)

I'm just gathering bits together to move on with the classic, and have a few accessories that I'd just as soon throw in so as not to start collecting them, if I'll get extras with the new machine.

Particularly the tamper - is it something that I could get away with using for a week or so, or permanently even? I have a middle of the road tamper that I'd happily throw in with the Classic if so.

EDIT: I think I've just established that the included tamper is of the plastic "straight in the bin" variety, and not the shiny stainless one on the Fracino website. Can anyone confirm?


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## Mrboots2u

Who have you bought it off, can't they tell you. At the minimum get a 58mm metal tamper.


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## coffeebean

Hi Josh, 99% sure it'll be a plastic tamper but will double check Monday for you. If you email me what bits and bobs you are after, I'll see what I can come up with for you!


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## Mister_Tad

Thanks Andy, I'm not necessarily after any bits. If the new machine came with a serviceable tamper I'd chuck my old one in with the classic if/when it sells, but it seems that's not the case (which is fine), so I'll hang on to it for now









I'll need to swap it for something with wood to match the Ariete eventually, of course









From what I gather from a cherub unboxing, looks to be a fairly vanilla plastic scoop and tamper that are included.


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## coffeebean

Pretty sure it's the same ones! Let me have a look and see what wooden handled ones I can get hold of and I'll give you some prices when I get in touch on Monday


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## Mister_Tad

You sir, are a bad influence


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## Dylan

fatboyslim said:


> Also cooling flushes are not required, as Fracino see this as a design failure. Water never reaches flash point when left in the heat exchanger, like on a Rocket HX-machine for example.


This should be a much more commonly raised fact when people are looking for HX machines, and its surprising that there is little information about it online. What would be really useful is for someone with the tools (such as eric's e61 thermometer) to test the design to see if it is as simple as not needing a flush at all.

Reiss from Londinium certainly seems to think so

"Below [Heavenly, Cherub, Little Gem] are 3 excellent machines, all with forged brass E61 groups, not a lever in sight, that have a properly engineered heat exchanger with a thermo-siphon incorporated into the design so they do not require a cooling flush"


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## Mrboots2u

this is on a ecm machine .. no idea how the design relates to the Fracino


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## Mister_Tad

Dylan said:


> This should be a much more commonly raised fact when people are looking for HX machines, and its surprising that there is little information about it online. What would be really useful is for someone with the tools (such as eric's e61 thermometer) to test the design to see if it is as simple as not needing a flush at all.
> 
> Reiss from Londinium certainly seems to think so
> 
> "Below [Heavenly, Cherub, Little Gem] are 3 excellent machines, all with forged brass E61 groups, not a lever in sight, that have a properly engineered heat exchanger with a thermo-siphon incorporated into the design so they do not require a cooling flush"


I wonder with the Ariete having a slightly different group to the Cherub et al, if it's in the same boat.

I'd be pretty keen to try it out... less keen on spending ~£80 on a thermometer to potentially discover that there's no flush needed, and it's basically useless. I'm thinking slapping cheap probe in a sacrificial portafilter isn't going to give a result accurate enough to bother with though. I can see a short flush being one of those things I end up doing just in case anyway, not knowing otherwise :/

I think starting out with an idle >5m no-flush in that video would add more value to it.


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## Dylan

Mister_Tad said:


> I wonder with the Ariete having a slightly different group to the Cherub et al, if it's in the same boat.
> 
> I'd be pretty keen to try it out... less keen on spending ~£80 on a thermometer to potentially discover that there's no flush needed, and it's basically useless. I'm thinking slapping cheap probe in a sacrificial portafilter isn't going to give a result accurate enough to bother with though. I can see a short flush being one of those things I end up doing just in case anyway, not knowing otherwise :/
> 
> I think starting out with an idle >5m no-flush in that video would add more value to it.


A simplistic way I found of measuring temp was to buy a k-type thermometer like so. Remove the shower screen and dispersion umbrella if you have one and push the probe up into the group firmly enough that flowing water won't knock it out. Bend the wire of the thermometer upward after it exits the group so water doesn't run down it. This should allow you to measure the temp within the group, and then the ramp down of temp as you flush it.

Obviously a lot of care is needed, dont burn yourself!


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## Mister_Tad

Thanks for the tip - ordered and will give it a go


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## JayMac

Hello Mister Tad,

Any thoughts on your Ariete a few weeks on? Did you end up trying Dylan's thermometer trick and come to a conclusion on the cooling flush or not question?


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## Thecatlinux

Very annoying drip tray on the early model cherub , don't know if this is rectified with Newer variants, heat up time and steaming power is pretty damn good .


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## coffeebean

New drip tray is a lot better than the old one function wise!


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## Mister_Tad

JayMac said:


> Hello Mister Tad,
> 
> Any thoughts on your Ariete a few weeks on? Did you end up trying Dylan's thermometer trick and come to a conclusion on the cooling flush or not question?


I'm generally very pleased with it, and it's miles easier to use than the Classic it replaced. If I were to nitpick, there are a few things I'd change.

- The panels come with the protective film from manufacturing still on. Whilst this does serve to protect the finish when in transit, it means you must remove it when it arrives which takes a fair bit of time and necessitates the removal of the top panel. The main issue though is that it can mask potential manufacturing faults. There were a few rough edges and one small burn mark (on the drip tray grate) on my machine that I'd like to think wouldn't make it past QC if they were picked up early on.

- Drip tray comments below

- The joysticks could do with being a touch longer, grabbing the hot water handle with authority on the first time you use it is going to get you a burnt hand. That point onwards you learn to just work the tip (ooh err)

- So shiny, so difficult to keep looking shiny, especially around the group. The Ariete is clearly not alone here though.

- The stock Fracino "bottomless" portafilter isn't actually bottomless... more like "spoutless". This means that VST baskets aren't suitable and IMS baskets are barely suitable. By barely suitable I mean that the holes on the IMS baskets are exactly as wide as the opening on the bottom of the PF, and the 20g IMS basket is right along the bottom. This means that occasionally (and more so with the 20g basket) you can make a bit of a mess if your first drips come from the edge of the basket and decide to make their way on to the PF... and down the handle.

No flush is required, I measured mine using the method above at 90C from the word go.

I've not found the noise particularly obtrusive like I've seen others suggested. When it's first switched on the boiler noise is evident for a couple minutes when it comes up to temperature, however once it's there, the element is only on for a few seconds at a time. The pump is just as noisy as you would expect a vibe pump in a resonant enclosure to be. I'm not particularly worried about the power consumption of the large boiler either. I've got mine running on a Wemo Insight switch which has advised me that switching it on first thing in the morning until lunchtime, then again for a drink in the afternoon, 7 days/week is going to cost me around £3/month.



Thecatlinux said:


> Very annoying drip tray on the early model cherub , don't know if this is rectified with Newer variants, heat up time and steaming power is pretty damn good .


It's better, but still not perfect. I've not found the volume of the tray an issue, but the footprint could be bigger, just as well no cooling flush is required, as you would get a very wet counter. The metal bit of the tray just sits in a shallow inset in the plastic tray which means wiping it with a towel can send it flying across the kitchen before you become aware of this. These are things that are easy to live with though. I'd say the main issue with the tray is that it's not polished stainless like the rest of the machine.


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## JayMac

Thanks Mister Tad,

I had similar thoughts and experiences with the protective film. A bit naff. Definitely an hour of cleaning was required. I was able to get off all of the spotting however - a bit of Mister Muscle and lots of rubbing and polishing (and a bit of fingernail work too).

The rest I'm still learning about.

-Jesse


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## Mawsy

Mister_Tad said:


> - The stock Fracino "bottomless" portafilter isn't actually bottomless... more like "spoutless". This means that VST baskets aren't suitable and IMS baskets are barely suitable. By barely suitable I mean that the holes on the IMS baskets are exactly as wide as the opening on the bottom of the PF, and the 20g IMS basket is right along the bottom. This means that occasionally (and more so with the 20g basket) you can make a bit of a mess if your first drips come from the edge of the basket and decide to make their way on to the PF... and down the handle.


I've actually been using my 18g VST with the Fracino bottomless portafilter and it takes a 19g dose and provided you don't have channeling through the puck it flows beautifully through the portafilter.


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