# Forgiving setup



## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

On Christmas morning, I will be opening my brand new, sparkly, second hand







, Classic. It will be used with a Rancilio Rocky grinder.

Obviously I would be happy to spend the rest of the holiday fiddling, twiddling and playing. However for domestic harmony to continue, it would be good if I can very quickly announce that the new machine makes fantastic coffee, much better than the delonghi.

I recently started a Christmas gifts for a Classic owner thread on here, and the VST basket was suggested. Research has indicated that they can be better, if everything is perfect, but they can be very hard to get good results with, if everything isn't perfect. So maybe that isn't the best thing to try on day 1.

So ideally I'd like to know what classic/Rocky owners found to be the most forgiving beans, grinder setting, etc


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## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

i have a Gaggia Classic but with a Graef CM800 grinder

dont forget you'll need

scales -

a 58mm tamper

i like chocolate

Coffee Compass does a Selection pack of 3 x 500g espresso beans [choose 3 out of 6 depending on your taste] - £22

a good buy to get started with the CFUK discount (PM me - so its NOT shown on a forum open to the public..]

GOOD LUCK ............!!!

i can do no better than refer you to MrBoots thread @Mrboots2u

http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?22879-Beginners-Reading-Weighing-Espresso-Brew-Ratios

i bought a 18g VST - a 58.35 tamper is recommended (££££) - but try your 58mm first - you might be pleasantly surprised...


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## risky (May 11, 2015)

Scales for sure. Bottomless portafilter is handy so you can check your prep is up to scratch.

As for beans, that's a hard one without knowing what sort of flavours you like in your coffee and how you drink it (espresso or milky?).

If you have a local speciality coffee shop it may be an idea to buy some beans from them. That way you can compare your results to the drinks they serve?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

For beans I would stay away from fruity, light, acidic beans get them right and they taste great, get them wrong and the sourness will kill you .... I would go for a darker roast and stick to the chocolate toffee caramel spectrum ... Get these wrong and at least your head stays attached

try chatswood from rave ... Even too coarse these manage body and a crema

DONT get a pacamara it will take to new year to dial it in if you don't know your gear


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I have to say I agree with h1udd 100% about the choice of bean. When I got my first setup the seller threw in some beans which were on the lighter side and I really struggled to get anything drinkable. Propelled me towards the Dark Side it did young padawan. With every kit upgrade and bit of experience gained I have moved towards the light. (Still love some of the stuff I tried on DSOL though).

If you want an easy time of it and want to make coffee that everyone in the house will like I'd be tempted to say go for a medium-dark blend which should be easy to dial in, extract without sourness and will hold up well in milk. Once everyone's happy that you're now the purveyor of good coffee thanks to your new kit, you can experiment all you like!


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

There is so much more to what roasters do ( and coffee is about ) than characterising it by a colour. And getting stick in this basic description can really limit people to what they choose " I don't like light roasts " " they roast light " " his roasters is sour "

There are both good and and " dark and light roasts" but really the outside colour doesn't tell you the story of its roast , how it will extract or the potential flavours .

A lot of roasters won't even list " a colour " just good basic tasting notes .

Often blends or house coffees that roasters make can be a little easier to get tasty over a range of kit and extractions and skills - as this mirrors what they cafe customers are like . Are they dark - don't have to be .

Pick something you like the tasting notes of that will work for the drinks you wanna make - perhaps even mail the roaster before and ask for advice - recipe .

Crowd pleasers can be your chocolate nutty type coffees and your are in season for Brazil's so that's good . This weeks has bean Brazil fazenda natural is a classic chocolate yummy coffee . People are open minded to ... Will sells a natural Yirg on his markets stall / not a coffee - coffee - but non geeks love it too

Best thing you can do is do some basic reading of the stickies on here - and make sure you have scales .and know how to use them .


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I do totally agree with you mrboots .... But there is a lot to be said about stereotyping beans for a beginner.

generally speaking dark roasts have less highs and a badly pulled espresso with citrus and highs tastes a lot more intensely wrong than a badly pulled dark roast with its low notes

also

generally speaking most dark roasts work with milk ... Where as large majority of lighter roasts don't

doubly also .. Most people's coffees experiences come chain stores, a darker roast will mimic what more people are used to.

possibly also .. I don't know if it's just luck, but I never have issues dealing in a dark roast .. But the lighter the bean the more sensitive to grind and humidity it is.

when ever I have guests coming I always make sure I am on a medium to dark roast, simple chocolate bean with no intense highs, boring, basic but guaranteed to be liked by non-coffee snobs


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

So Go by tasting note not it's not colour. Descriptor . Otherwise you just end up stuck using roasters that describe by colour ( when often a lot of really good ones just don't do this at all ) as opposed to ones that don't.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

This probably could be a separate thread tho. Look not saying don't buy X buy Y . Drink what you like . Sometimes lazy labelling can limit people's coffee experience .

Foundry are they light or dark roasters - answer neither . They roast to the coffee . A lot of people I suspect will may have characterised them as "light" coz they did an lsol and their most talked about bean is a Yirg natural . But they Always have a great coffee coffee on - a choc nutty , crowd pleasing treacle type one . If you lump them as a light roaster then you may miss out on other great coffees and so on. I've seen a whole continent get labelled as " roasting light " on here before ... Talk about limiting your options


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I dont think he is going to miss out on anything .. he asked for a forgiving bean that he can make everyone coffee for over christmas without looking like a fool. He didn't ask for one type of bean he can drink for the rest of his life and never have anything else.

and my advice would be to choose a flavour that most people are familiar with, choose a bean that is forgiving so nothing explosive, too citrusy, too acidic and ultimately something that is easy to dial in, so a bean with a wide band for granularity

when you add up all of these characteristics, then stereotypically you are looking at a bean that has been roasted to a darker profile.

so that is a good place to start.

Now to identify out of all the beans and all the roasters who does a bean like that ? ... well Coffee compass, Rave, Darkarts .. all good roasters, all accomplished all favoured ... all classify these beans as darker roasted.

Italian Job - dark chocolate, cocoa - medium dark roast - its a blend, works as an espresso and cuts though milk, has a bit of robusta in it, so guaranteed crema and caffeine kick

signature blend - has a rich acidity, so more of a tang than the italian, but hard to get it totally wrong - also works in milk - medium to dark roast

Chatswood - dark chocolate, soft bitterness and sweetness of cocoa nibs, slight acidity as it cools - dark roast

all of these are guaranteed to work and be easy they are forgiving

after christmas, get yourself a subscription to Hasbeans IMM and open your eyes to just how many different flavours there really are in coffee .... and how some work great with espresso and some are blooming awful but are a delight when brewed


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Anyway

" forgiving " " coffee-coffee" " easier to extract " " tasty "

None " dark "

Choccodooby - http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/brazil-inglaterra-pulped-natural-bourbon

Toffodooby - http://www.foundrycoffeeroasters.com/shop/fresh-coffee-beans/el-paraiso-colombia/

Nuts oh hazelenuts - http://shop.extractcoffee.co.uk/product/original-espresso

Tap it and unwrap it - http://avenue.coffee/shop/skyscraper-espresso-v1-0/


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

h1udd said:


> Now to identify out of all the beans and all the roasters who does a bean like that ? ... well Coffee compass, Rave, Darkarts .. all good roasters, all accomplished all favoured ... all classify these beans as darker roasted.


We can agree to disagree and ill leave this thread now having made some alternate suggestions .

Im not really talking to the OP per se - but it is how , we end up wit lazy characterisations of roasters and beans ...

for me chocolate notes is more a function of type of bean / blend and how you extract it than abstract outside colour of the bean ..


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I do agree with mrboots he is ultimately right .... but seeing that he has left this thread I feel I can post this with out being antagonistic

the

None " dark "

Choccodooby - http://www.hasbean.co.uk/products/br...atural-bourbon

very good SO, tasty and forgiving ....... the roasting notes though ??? ....

"Roasting Information

Medium Dark - Just before 2nd, but long and slow through crack."


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

And this is where Colour is mis leading " one mans dark " isn't another man dark "


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

thanks for the suggestions guys







all advice welcome - sine i've had a grinder I have tried loads of different beans from different suppliers, but hampered by the delonghi not had huge success - drinkable but not great.

this thread was just to get me making an equally drinkable coffee on day 1 of using the classic.

keep the ideas coming


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

h1udd said:


> I dont think he is going to miss out on anything .. he asked for a forgiving bean that he can make everyone coffee for over christmas without looking like a fool. He didn't ask for one type of bean he can drink for the rest of his life and never have anything else.
> 
> and my advice would be to choose a flavour that most people are familiar with, choose a bean that is forgiving so nothing explosive, too citrusy, too acidic and ultimately something that is easy to dial in, so a bean with a wide band for granularity
> 
> ...


yes, that sums it up

so 'darker' and chocolate/fudge would be a good start

i've read through all of the above, but would a blend be easier than a single source?


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

I started typing out a long reply .... Then I remembered that Steve from hasbean summed it up quite well and it's an opinion I agree with

death of the blend article :-

http://www.hasbean.co.uk/blogs/articles/6486393-death-of-the-blend

"Blends can be more forgiving" ... And I must admit I screw up less with blends than SOs .. In fact as I write this I emptied a new blend into the hopper, the grind was too loose, the timer shot out 19.5g instead of 18 ... I had spritzers from the basket, a massive early blonde channel ... Yet it was still rather drinkable


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Using 'forgiving' beans is going to make it harder to learn. Just buy what you like the sound of and get cracking. If you like fruit, get fruit. If you don't get some choc/nuts type stuff. Even if you're leaving you've got to have an end point you'll enjoy.


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

Christmas Day, infront of guests is not a time for learning ... He wants to show off, not make sinkers and sour shots.

Go go forgiving at xmas, start to learn in Jan


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Rather sour than charcoal


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## h1udd (Sep 1, 2015)

In that case perhaps he should email his guests and ask if they would like their milk tasting curdled, burnt of poured straight down the sink


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

h1udd said:


> In that case perhaps he should email his guests and ask if they would like their milk tasting curdled, burnt of poured straight down the sink


lol









it's not so much guests as Mrs GrahamS, who wont understand how a better machine is making worse coffee, while i learn it.


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Using 'forgiving' beans is going to make it harder to learn. Just buy what you like the sound of and get cracking. If you like fruit, get fruit. If you don't get some choc/nuts type stuff. Even if you're leaving you've got to have an end point you'll enjoy.


For what's it's worth, I think this is bang on the button. It's actually easier to learn what's going on with some of the less 'traditional' coffee. Finding and either sticking with or pushing beyond acidity/fruit whatever is all part of the joy for me. You then get to find the spot that appeals most to you, developing your own recipes to suit your own preference. The language is hard with this stuff I find. I like to think of some coffee being more 'multi-dimensional' - i.e with a larger number of potential yummy spots. That's not to say that a less multi-dimensional coffee will have a less yummier sweet spot, just less of them!


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## foundrycoffeeroasters.com (Jun 19, 2014)

.....and finally, yes, Boots is right, we have some coffee that has spent considerably longer in the roaster than the rocko mountain, we're always looking for the degree of roasting that best suits each bean.....and I love some choco treacle yum as much as the next man, every bit as much as I like the fruity stuff.


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## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

as a begineer, i initially used those roasters who listed their beans by 'flavour type' on their website eg caramel

this gave me a starting reference to then look at beans 'by country' or look for SO

slow but all part of the learning curve fun


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

I have the rocky set about as fine as it will go, 2, tamping very firmly, but it's pouring too fast - 14g dry, 20 secs, 45g of coffee. i am getting fines in the bottom of the cup. Standard classic double. the basket isn't very full at all, i can certainly increase the dose, but I am thinking maybe the opv may be way too high. Fresh Hasbean Red Pacamara beans.

any comments?


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## Glenn (Jun 14, 2008)

Try 15g or 16g if the basket will allow

14g is way too light in the standard baskets

A simple way is to fill the basket and level off, weigh and see how much is in it.

More coffee will slow the flow of water.


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

Glenn said:


> Try 15g or 16g if the basket will allow
> 
> 14g is way too light in the standard baskets
> 
> ...


so lets say in theory i get 16g in, i should aim for 32g out in 25 secs as a starting point.

or if i rtfm, see how much two scoops of the plastic spoon gives...


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## GCGlasgow (Jul 27, 2014)

16g-32g in 25 secs is good to aim for, have you got scales?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Don't get too hung up on time if it's a few seconds over - taste and adjust .


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## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

GrahamS said:


> ............... Fresh Hasbean Red *Pacamara* beans....any comments?


 @h1udd said in post#4

''DONT get a pacamara it will take to new year to dial it in if you don't know your gear''








......I'm going through beans from RAVE atm....no prob getting 16>36>26 for a good 'point to start'

grind step #8 so still room to go finer

try a different bean..?


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

GCGlasgow said:


> 16g-32g in 25 secs is good to aim for, have you got scales?


yep,


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

yardbent said:


> @h1udd said in post#4
> 
> ''DONT get a pacamara it will take to new year to dial it in if you don't know your gear''
> 
> ...


pacamara was already open, got some chatsworth, so will try that


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

GrahamS said:


> pacamara was already open, got some chatsworth, so will try that


Pacamara are tasty tho - set grinder at its finest point for it - in that regard it may be simpler to dial in .

Chatsworth looking at its description its gonna be a lot coarser - a lot coarser grind setting .


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

Mrboots2u said:


> Pacamara are tasty tho - set grinder at its finest point for it - in that regard it may be simpler to dial in .
> 
> Chatsworth looking at its description its gonna be a lot coarser - a lot coarser grind setting .


could you explain how you get the grind setting from the description? I see the Our Espresso Recipe using 20g VST- 20g in, 42g out in 25 to 30 seconds.

with mine on 4, in standard double I had 16g in, 40g out in about 15 - but i had to do the portafilter up very tight to stop leakage, making me think the grind is too fine, but the opv is set way too high. could be wrong of course. i'll see if the puck shows obvious channelling


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

That's a general Rave recipe. Pick a dose ( if you don't have a vst basket pick one appropriate to the size of basket you have )

Aim for a brew ratio of 1:2 ish over 25-35 seconds .

If your using a stock gaggia basket then 16 g dose isn't a bad starting point .

That recipe is one rave post for all Beans I think

Don't get hung up on it . Pull a shot - adjust via taste


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## yardbent (Aug 8, 2015)

GrahamS said:


> ..........
> 
> ., in standard double I had 16g in, 40g out in about 15
> 
> ...


15secs is obviuosly too fast

leakage,,? have you replaced the group head gasket .?

grind canna be 'too fine' if 40g came through in *15secs*

why do you think the OPV is too high - do you know what it is..?

i can mail you this - remove Gaggia twin outlets from PF - screw on with plumbers PTFE ( i'll include some) - just mail it back afterwards


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## Tewdric (Apr 20, 2014)

Graham you fickle loon







fancy popping round to have a play on the L1? Chatswood loaded currently but I'm planning on another K of Callum's Rocko Mountain before my chrimbo Union sub kicks in. If you ride over cake is on me!


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## GrahamS (Aug 27, 2015)

thanks for advice and offers - had greater success with chatsworth, and also the fudge blend. both as espresso and in latte


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