# Is it me, or is it the beans?



## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

I'm waiting to reassemble a La Pavoni and I have put my pod machine into semi retirement, so I am using a Bialetti to get some practice on my new Feldgrind. I thought I would buy a bag of cheap beans from my local supermarket to start with as I have never done my own grinding before - probably a mistake. So far every cup has been disappointing, with a predominant thin acidity on the sides of my tongue whatever quantity and grind (between 1+6 and 2+0) I have used. Can anyone tell me if this is likely to be my fault, or does Taylor's Colombia really taste like that?


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## froggystyle (Oct 30, 2013)

Beans.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

calculon said:


> Can anyone tell me if this is likely to be my fault, or does Taylor's Colombia really taste like that?


If it's Taylors and tastes like shit, then yeah it tastes like that....if it tastes great...then consider killing yourself.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Personally the cheap Beans night not be amazing but we might be able to get them to tastier .

How much coffee are you using ? How much water ? What are the flavour notes on the beans ? @MWJB can you help

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sounds like you are too coarse, moka pot is very forgiving.

Weigh the beans into the full basket. Weigh the hot water into the pot base. Weigh the finished coffee. Time the flow from start to first sign of steam from the centre pipe (kill brew at this point).

Gas hob might be better with cold water, preheat an electric hob.


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

Each time I have used the same amount of water, up to the safety valve, 300ml. I've increased the bean quantity day on day from 15gm (weak and immediately acidic) to 25gm (about the right strength, but with the acidity coming through after a few seconds.) Today with 25gm of beans and grind 2+0 I got around 225ml of coffee. I have been using pre-boiled water on medium electric heat but haven't kept note of times. Taylor's state - ahem - "bursting with... tropical fruit, caramel and blackcurrant... medium-dark... creamy body and buttery finish."


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

How much weight of coffee does it take to totally fill the basket, without compressing/tamping?

6 cup pot? Ally or steel?


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> How much weight of coffee does it take to totally fill the basket, without compressing/tamping?
> 
> 6 cup pot? Ally or steel?


It was pretty full today, maybe 27-28gm would be tops. 6 cup, steel, squeaky clean.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

OK, fill it to the max, lower the heat on the (preheated) hob & maybe try cold water in the base.

The extraction will relate to how fast the liquid flows through the basket, grinding finer, filling the basket & less intense heat will slow the flow.


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

OK, will try next time.


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> OK, fill it to the max, lower the heat on the (preheated) hob & maybe try cold water in the base.
> 
> The extraction will relate to how fast the liquid flows through the basket, grinding finer, filling the basket & less intense heat will slow the flow.


I tried different beans - Union Natural Spirit this time. I followed your suggestions with the exception of finer grind as I didn't want to change too many variables at once. To my dismay the result was very similar. So tomorrow I will repeat, with finer grind and fingers crossed. At the moment I am concerned that two years of drinking pod coffee has changed my perception of what it should taste like. Weirdly the acidity seems to increase as the coffee cools down!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Acidic flavours increase as coffee the cools when it is under-extracted. When hot, acidic flavours aren't such a problem. When you extract it to a sweet spot, the sweetness becomes more prominent as it cools.

How long did the flow take?


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## jlarkin (Apr 26, 2015)

calculon said:


> Weirdly the acidity seems to increase as the coffee cools down!


That's normal!

It's tricky because some coffee has acidity in it, which can be a good thing but also under-extraction can cause sour-ness which is generally more unpleasant.

Their is a bit about how temperature affects perception here (far-ish down the page): http://www.scaa.org/chronicle/2012/07/06/the-tasting-experience-our-five-senses-and-some-of-the-ways-they-influence-each-other/

I'd seen a better piece of research I think funded or reported a little through the SCAE but couldn't find it from a quick search now.


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> How long did the flow take?


Blast, I forgot to time it. Will do tomorrow when I try a finer grind.


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

Well, that was different - less acid, certainly, but still a little... or is that bitterness? I'm not sure I can tell them apart at the moment. 25gm at a grind of 1+5 on the Feldgrind, 300ml water produced 225ml coffee in three and a half minutes from first trickle to final foam over very low heat (deliberately longer than previous attempts which were probably around one minute.) Perhaps I should go back to square one and try the Lavazza pre-ground I used to drink to give my taste buds some sort of control point.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

calculon said:


> Well, that was different - less acid, certainly, but still a little... or is that bitterness? I'm not sure I can tell them apart at the moment. 25gm at a grind of 1+5 on the Feldgrind, 300ml water produced 225ml coffee in three and a half minutes from first trickle to final foam over very low heat (deliberately longer than previous attempts which were probably around one minute.) Perhaps I should go back to square one and try the Lavazza pre-ground I used to drink to give my taste buds some sort of control point.


Don't change beans, you'll be starting over again. The mechanism works the same for all beans, you'll just be moving square one.

The acidic taste is reduced, looks like you are getting closer. Try going finer, keeping everything the same. You said before that the basket might take 28g, are you filing it completely?


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

Yes, I ground 28gm but with the finer grind not all would go in. I think I am also being thrown by the tasting notes - to read 'fudge, toffee and sugared lemons' is making my brain expect a sweetness that won't ever be there!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

You'll only know it will never be there if you keep going through the acidic flavour, to sweetness, then persistent bitterness at the other end. At the moment it looks like you are just edging into a better zone...you still have room to move in terms of fineness on your grinder. Moka pot is capable of very sweet brews, if it's there in the coffee, you can get it out.

I hope you are sharing the contents of the pot, 28g of coffee per portion is a lot.


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

MWJB said:


> I hope you are sharing the contents of the pot, 28g of coffee per portion is a lot.


A timely warning - I had around two-thirds of it this morning after a disturbed night's sleep. I was buzzing for ninety minutes then pretty much crashed out for a few hours. I guess I manage to extract a lot more caffeine today than I am used to!!


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## Rob_EthioBean (Apr 24, 2016)

Sounds like my life!


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## gmac (Apr 26, 2016)

Never found supermarket beans very good, Tesco finest are OK. Best to buy fresh beans from a local coffee shop. It is actually cheaper to buy fresh beans than supermarket beans where I live and they are usually roasted on the day of purchase, £5 for 0.5kg espresso blend beans. You will get better crema from fresh beans. I have never tries to order from the internet though.


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## calculon (Apr 1, 2016)

Hello @MWJB - here are the figures you asked for in the other thread!

4-cup Moka pot - filled with 215g of water and 15g of coffee. Feldgrind setting 1+4. Percolation time (from first appearance of coffee to first gurgle and removal from heat) 3 minutes 30 seconds. Coffee produced - 180g. Thoughts - a little weak, rather acidic.

6-cup Moka pot - filled with 325g of water and 28g of coffee. Same grind. Percolation time 5 minutes 20 seconds. Coffee produced - 235g. Thoughts - too strong. One part water added to four parts coffee, much better. Some acidity, but not unpleasant.

It's beginning to occur to me that perhaps this perceived acidity is part of the taste of real coffee (remember I have never ground my own before and have been making pod brews for two years) and even though the taste hasn't exactly been the epiphany I was expecting, it is at least an improvement on the BTC and store brews I have suffered recently.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

OK so the 6 cup yielded a better tasting result? Less acidic? If your perceived "acidity" is offputting & sharp, it's not supposed to be there, it should be balanced with sweetness. Anyhow, this seems to be the result to build on. Can you grind finer?

Flow rate for the 6 cup was lower (235g in 320sec), more contact between coffee & water. The 4-cup was 180g in 210sec.

28g:235g will produce a relatively strong cup (over 2.0%), compared to regular brewed coffee (1.3-1.5%), at a nominal extraction, adding 25% more water will still be strong (~1.8%) but manageable? Maybe try adding 50% more water?

Your 4-cup pot seems to be operating at a very low brew ratio, making regular brewed strength coffee at best. What brand is it? This doesn't seem typical. There would seem to be very little water in the reservoir for this pot (about 10g left over?), maybe use the least possible heat?

The acidic taste is likely down to not washing enough coffee from the dose (too fast a brew, to coarse a grind?), the objective is to get past the sharp acidity, find some sweetness, then fix the strength by dilution.


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