# Sage DTP and Niche Grinder or SDB and Sage grinder pro



## Cg9 (1 mo ago)

Hi need some help. Do I get a niche grinder and a second hand DTP cost about 600 or save the extra and get the dynamic duo of dual boiler(or other) with the sage smart grinder? 
I currently have a delonghi Caffe corso ingot for convenience about 7 Years ago but looking to get a proper machine. I've worked in Costa before so understand the basics


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Hi and welcome...what grinder did you use at Costa ?


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## Cg9 (1 mo ago)

Thanks for your reply. Good question it was a fair few years back so unfortunately I'm not sure. I must admit getting lost in so many different reviews and I've got a few concerns regarding sage not being long lasting. I'd also consider rocket appartemento, lelit mara x etc but my main needs are several lattes or espresso a day and to be long lasting due to increased cost and not knowing enough to modify the machine. Any recommendations appreciated. Thanks again


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

Costa wouldn't have been (pardon the pun) using a "home/hobbyist/enthusiast/other" grinder...chances are they will have used something commercial like a Mazzer (maybe, i dunno, i don't go in there)...so if that's what you're "used" to then why don't you just get one of those, say a Mazzer Major for example...second hand ones are plentyful and they don't cost the earth 2nd hand...plus it will outlive any of those you've mentioned...your money your choice though.


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## Cg9 (1 mo ago)

Thank you. That's important and good info. Any thoughts on machine recommendations?


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## Coffeelon (12 mo ago)

I'm about as newbie as they come, but I went through a similar 'what to buy' dilemma for a long time - often ending back browsing Sage machines because they look OK and are reasonable price. But I just saw too many posts about people having faults after the warranty period, and then you're fiddling yourself or binning it or using what seems to be the only authorised Sage repairer in the country, which isn't cheap. I didn't realise companies could have that monopoly in this day and age but in any event I couldn't go through with the brand. I have a lot of appliance grade things in my house as do many of us, but more and more I'm trying to be more environmentally conscious and getting things that will last and be repairable, even if that's at the cost of features and actually no real saving in terms of ongoing maintenance - at least it doesn't go in the bin so soon.

Long story short, I bought a Profitec Go and a Niche, all based in internet research and user reviews.

I didn't really want to spend that much on a new Niche (but there were no second hand ones, or rather there weren't any that didn't look dodgy or cost more than a new one for some reason), and if I'm honest don't really like it aesthetically. I really liked the look of the new Varia VS somethingorother, but it's hard to get info on and like so many things these days is direct from overseas supplier with a hazy future dispatch date. So I went with the easy option.

The Go is a lovely machine. I'd already come to terms with a single boiler workflow, but let's see if I say the same in months to come. Before that I was seriously considering a Lelit Victoria too. There are so many machines out there, but for me it had to be something non-e61 as that's just one level of fuss and maintenance too far for me, and I'm not sold on the aesthetics. That slims the choices right down, and in reality in my budget there were actually only a few with PID and pressure gauge in a nice design.

One other thing I'd add is to try and avoid forum and web influence too much - which might seem contradictory as I've just said thats what I did - but what I mean is I nearly got swept up in it all - one minute you just want a simple setup and before long you're led down a path where you start to think the only sensible option is a £10K machine capable of the best espresso in the world, coupled with a grinder that has better tolerances than NASA's astronomy equipment. Just set a budget, get something not rubbish that real users say they enjoy, and you like the look of, and go for it.


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## Cg9 (1 mo ago)

Thanks, sounds like a great set up are you happy with the results so far? Looks great build quality and I'm happy to accept single boiler if it'll last and produce good quality espresso consistently.


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## Coffeelon (12 mo ago)

Cg9 said:


> Thanks, sounds like a great set up are you happy with the results so far? Looks great build quality and I'm happy to accept single boiler if it'll last and produce good quality espresso consistently.


Haha, if you see my other posts you'll see I'm in the 'why is it all tasting disgusting phase' but it's not the machine......

The Go wasn't easy to get hold of I should just add. I was on an email list for stock at several places and I bought it as soon as I got the notification. I think it's quite popular at its price point and new so probably not enough stock out there. And I really wanted chrome/stainless but I made my peace with that too, for the features, build and price.


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## Rincewind (Aug 25, 2020)

@Cg9 don't talk yourself out of a Sage because of what "some" posts/sites/nay-sayers/trolls/shills/other say about them...there are plenty of folk that are more than happy with them and have had many trouble free years of using them...any machine (regardless of cost) can and will pack up at some point; you will just find that they're hardly reported/mentioned (embarrased, justification of high cost/loyalty/other) mainly due to there being less of them in use...Sage sell a lot more than the other manufacturers so they're by nature of things are going to get "more" stick/negative-press...in a nutshell don't believe everything you read about them; factor in some BS and other (negative) stuff from the trolls/nay-sayers/shills that "may" have been added...a £5 machine could last longer than a £5k machine...an expensive machine could pack up just as easily as any other (cheaper) brand; it happens. An authorised Sage repairer here (as expensive as he may be) will still be probably cheaper than shipping (out of Warranty) a machine to Italy...yeah you "might" be able to get the parts here (or shipped to you) but not everyone has the skills/time/other to do that and shipping it back to Italy/other isn't gonna be cheap (+parts, +labour) and not all of them have an "official" repairer here in blighty/US.

There is a lot to consider (other than it's name) when deciding on purchasing a machine...good luck.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Repair has cropped up several times. One factor is any machine repair that needs to be done by an engineer will not be cheap. Take the shiny italian style machines and all use some fairly common internals. Some are machine specific. An engineer will look and find a suitable replacement part if generally available. Some need to come from the maker. It varies. Sage is different. A lot comes from them. There are parts that they buy in. They will repair but unless they have changed wont sell spares. A German Ebayer decided to stock and sell the solenoids that Sage use. No one in the UK seems to be bothered. Given a solenoid problem an engineer will replace it even if it just needs opening up and cleaning. At some point they will need replacing. Scale is the most common cause of problems on all machines. Some gets where it causes problems - usually sludge.

So it can be said that none Sage machines are easier for DIY repair. Sage is Australia is better as some spares are readily available. They can be imported here.

All Sage machines are easy to descale but that doesn't mean machines wont suffer from it. Most machines need spanners and serious dismantling, The problem with Sage is that they provide a better water filter now but the time it lasts depends how hard the water is. The other problem is descaling. If it doesn't remove all scale more is left behind each time it's done. There tends to be a limit on how agressive a descaler can be without wrecking some part of the machine. Not just Sage, On the DB Sage did say beyond some hardness level find another source of water. Not sure if the manual says that now.

Scale can be avoided by using certain brands of bottled water. Some may even blend 2. Self hardened RO water can also be used. Substance added that leaves soluble scale if it forms,

Steam is the worst cause of scale on all machines. The higher water temperatures produce more of it.

I've just bought a 2nd DB. One of my main reason is I don't want to fiddle with E61 style brew heads and the temperature control Sage has is very good too. It has pre infusion built in. The other aspect is heat up time. It's ready by the time I have carefully prepared the grinds. I use a naked portafilter so don't worry about heating that up as found for me it makes no difference. If I wanted that maybe another 10min. Heat up time on many machines is over 1/2 hr and even longer on some. Usually the portafilter would be left in and maybe the last thing to reach temperature.

 My previous DB probably about 5 years old is bust. It's probably a triac failure. If so I can replace the part. Sage would change the entire board it's on. The board can be bought from Oz. The O rings they use for seals are reckoned to last for 3 years. Mine haven't been replaced and are still ok.  I wondered when one would fail. A retailer in Oz who sells sets of the seals suggests changing every 12 months. It may depend on how long the machine is on. It's a pretty simple job for people to do themselves. This machine was a refurb and clearly has some scale sludge kicking about in it but the solenoid has only been cleaned once. This really needs a good look around inside stuff to see where it is and remove it. More like descaling many other machines.

All Sage machines have similar advantages and "problems". The price points for what you get compared with comparable is pretty good on all. The stainless boilers in the DB usually result in much higher prices. All their efforts are directed to home use, Bit more like mass production than usual sources as sold all over the place.

This is getting too long.
Grinders. Both the SGP and Niche have similar advantages. Convenience in one way or another. Beans can be weighed into a SGP but until the machine settles down it wont match Niche for what goes in comes out. I haven't had much luck trying to grind straight into the portafilter on Niche, Maybe the beans I use and 58mm portafilter. Pass, I find the grinds can better with it's own set of problems getting the grinds evenly spread. That has got better with practice. Both grinders are pretty easy to set to get the desired ratio in a shot. The SGP can produce a nice heap in the portafilter.

Neither grinder will produce it's best grinds from brand new. Niche needs more kg beans grounds for that. I wouldn't rush doing that on either of them by pre conditioning as some do with most grinders. On a mazzer mini I could easily feel motor heat via the casing so ground a couple of kg of beans more quickly than the makers suggest via their stated on to off time. Some would say more beans needed. I found clumping improved. When Niche started to be used some said wonderful coffee.When I fired up mine I got fierce coffee. It faded over several kg.

Hope there is none of my really weird typo's in that,

A feature of the SGP. Some grinds get packed hard in the grind chamber. They do this to preserve it's life and save plastic wearing away. My answer was to not clean it out that often. This means there may be some taste carry over when a new bean is put through. ~ one shot. Small penalty really comparing with it getting back to how it should be.

There has been a lot around on burr type and size relating to taste. I think it's more nuances than anything else, The main thing about taste is the ratio of bean weight to size of the shot produced. Also in some c=cases the weight of beans used, A strong bean will produce a strong taste. 30 sec time fine but shorter may give better results on some beans. Some have used longer - I haven't liked what comes out. Some seconds variation - makes little difference.

LOL Me I'd go for the DB and like all lust after a better grinder. People have problems producing what they see as great coffee what ever kit they buy when starting up. It takes a while and variations have to be tried even on prep. I do use Sage button and weigh what comes out after the shot is pulled not weigh as it comes out as many do. I grind into the can. Slight side to side to level the grinds. Into the portafilter. They are usually pretty level. Tap the portafilter down twice. Use a 2 slope leveling tool and then tamp with a calibrated tamper. Not an expensive one. If I tapped down once or three times it would alter what came out also if I did that significantly harder or softer. I don't stir up the grinds as find it makes things worse. If sufficient grinds and they aren't level I use the straight back edge of a knife to scrape the grinds across without compressing any of them. LOL works most of the time but not always. i drink it anyway unless it's way out.


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