# Ek43 Learning thread.



## UbiquitousPhoton

Hi all,

So you will have to excuse my ignorance generally, but the information on exactly how to ek43 is vast, and some of it is rather contradictory, so could really do with the local experts help.

So, I am currently playing with the Foundry Costa Rican, which I have found to be very nice, but I'm still struggling to get the most of it.

This morning I did 20g into 60g, at a grind of about 2.2 (original dial) in about 26 seconds. I'm slowly coarsening the grind as it would seem that most people seem to think that Ek43 shots should be extremely quick (22 seconds was thrown around a lot on the grind science blog). This does, indeed appear to be barely touching the sides, but the pucks are coming out pretty much dry and solid, so not too worried.

I'm using Ron's profile number 5 on the vesuvius, which is a very long pre-infusion followed by a slow but steady ramp up.

I'm getting the pineapple, but the shot was a little dry in the aftertaste, so this afternoon I stopped slightly shorter, at about 55g, but this time the shot seemed slightly muddy - no dryness, as would be expected, but the pineapple did not seem quite as defined, and there was a definite sourness in the finish









I could really do with some tips - should I not be trying to go as long (stick to more traditional 1:2 first?) - longer shots with other beans definitely seemed better. I'm doing a really light tamp with a torr 58.5 trapeze flat, and WDT before that, with a definite yen towards the full PRAT (but nothing really to do it in at the minute). Beans are getting a quick RDT before grind, so I don't have to scrape the grinds off the walls.

Haylp!


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## Xpenno

Ensure your prep is spot on, lose the pre infusion, run flat 6b, run 20g into 50g in 25-40s. You will probably have to grind finer. Make sure you flush before your start the shot to get up to temp.


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Check on the prep (think I'm now doing better than I ever have done), will try a flat profile.

If I grind finer, it normally takes a LOT longer to get to 50g - more in the region of 40s, is that acceptable?

I always flush prior to the shot.


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## Xpenno

I don't mind 40s shots but some coffee will over extract if you're not careful. I'll stop a shot slightly short (5g or so) if it's going way over time.


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## Xpenno

I don't like long pre infusion personally, there are many that do, I think it generally makes for a dull shot.


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## Xpenno

Are you running naked shots, can you see what's going on?

Maybe do a video of your prep and a naked shot?


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Running naked, yes. I had a feeling you were going to say this, and I now feel oddly shy, but I guess doing this is going to help, so its worth looking a fool









How exactly did other people rubber band their phone to their heads?


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## Xpenno

I have no idea how they did it. Defo worth doing though if you can work it out.


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## Xpenno

I did mine by wedging my phone on microphone stand using a pencil


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## Mrboots2u

Some coffees I run at flat 6 bar some I run with ore infusion . When I do the latter I have one programs set up at 2 bar and one programme set up at 6 . You can watch the shot and change between pressure manually as the shot full saturates


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Ok, so no time to film self murdering decent coffee this weekend.

The above advice is, however extremely interesting, given that I though the current prevailing advice was to pre-infuse as long as is humanely possible! Just goes to show how wrong you can actually be...

@Mrboots2u - how do you know when to switch the profiles if you pre-infuse? When the first drips show through the puck?

I do like the simplicity, but had kinda assumed that most people were using extra-ordinarily complicated profiles, so this again is a sea change for me









I have, however had a little breakthrough in that I can now grind a great deal finer, and this is (indeed) producing better results. My tamp is now basically just waving a tamper somewhere near the grinds, however, and this is taking a little bit of time to get properly repeatable, but definite improvements. Thanks for all your help so far.


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## Mrboots2u

I am not one for waving a tamper over puck tbh , i aim to be consistent and for me i find tamping til no resistance works. if you can repeat whatver you are doing and it tastes good all fine . Yeah I pre infuse til the puck drips.. More often than not i use flat 6 bar tbh...


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## UbiquitousPhoton

To be fair, its not just waving, but I am restricting myself to just using two fingers and a thumb to tamp, rather than leaning into it as I would have done in the past....


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## The Systemic Kid

Do the same - use two fingers and thumb to apply pressure and ensure the puck is pukka level.


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## dan1502

I'm watching this with interest but trying not to try and take too much in at once. I went back to 18/36 in about 34-36 seconds (profile 3) from yesterday mainly so I can get used to how the grinder behaves before doing much else. It tastes ok (but not great) but I am getting soggy pucks and a dimple/channel which I haven't had before. It's not spraying through a bottomless PF though. My routine is to weigh 18.1g of beans, 2 spritzes of water, shake beans, into PF using a catcha, tap then a distribution device then the Mahlgut set to just under the third line. I was previously shaking the grinds but I need to get a different container to do that easily with the EK.


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## Mrboots2u

Ignore soggy pucks- ignore puckology ( what the puck looks like after the OPV has done its work ) . Even ignore what your bottomless looks like to some degree. Ive had really tasty shots that arent epsresso porn . And I often feel that i can pre judge a shot via the visual , nakeds give good feedback but also shouldn't be the things that measure a shot by...

Pull shot > taste ...note

With a 1:2 ratio it isn't tasting great ( but where the imbalance lies may help us ) - bear in mind i have no idea what coffee you are using - and where the imbalance lies ( not sweet enough - too weak etc etc ) . If you are chasing body then again this isnt the EK's forte , hitting big thick gloopy shots for me , gives me strong and imbalanced shots ....Why isn't it tasting great ?? I can guess a little

1. you espresso has a nominal ey of 18-20 % but this doesn't mean it will taste good. ( especailly at 18 % with this grinder ) If its in the 20's EY wise then it just may be too strong, try diluting a shot to see , this will give you an idea if the strength of the shot is clouding clarity and tasting notes ...

OR

You are hitting lower nominal extraction ratios with a weaker shot ( 18-19 % EY ) again this may not taste good Changing the Brew ( more water same dose ) will increase the extraction yiled and hopefully the taste .

Pull longer shots, really, taste em ... try 45-50g g out on that dose ... Different Profiles ( unless your doing made stuff ) ultimately IMHO aren't going to effect taste as much as the brew ratio and or grind you are using ......

I know you don't have a refractometer so the numbers to some degree are pointless as a reference for you , try this if you can though ..

https://baristahustle.com/a-guide-to-the-espresso-extraction-tasting/

Re Pucks ...https://baristahustle.com/for-a-good-puck/

https://baristahustle.com/for-a-good-puck/


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Thats a *really* handy link. I wouldn't mind a refractometer, but affording one is another thing entirely. I understand exactly how useful one of them can be, but the pricing seems slightly insane to me


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## The Systemic Kid

Come up occasionally on the forum. Wouldn't be without mine - provide so much feedback and saves on coffee wastage too. Reckon mine will have paid for itself in about....50-100yrs


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## dan1502

I did try a longer shot which was 18 to about 44 IIRC. What I meant would like to get used to the consistency and adjustment sensitivity of the EK etc before I begin experimenting too much. I'm currently using Compass Hill & Valley dark roast blend but only have about 450g left. I need to think carefully about my taste descriptions before I post them as otherwise they will only serve to confuse if that makes sense. I'll see how things progress this week.


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## Mrboots2u

dan1502 said:


> I did try a longer shot which was 18 to about 44 IIRC. What I meant would like to get used to the consistency and adjustment sensitivity of the EK etc before I begin experimenting too much. I'm currently using Compass Hill & Valley dark roast blend but only have about 450g left. I need to think carefully about my taste descriptions before I post them as otherwise they will only serve to confuse if that makes sense. I'll see how things progress this week.


Ok The Hill and Valley is quite a dark dark roast . it will probably be better at shorter ratios tbh than the ones i describe . It will give up its " coffeeness " easier than some of the lighter roasts ..At longer ratios i suspeact you are making really higher extractions ( 22 plus ) , perhaps could be bitter not sweet . I know Ron loved the darker roasts with the EK43 personally i don't think it plays to it's forte ( but that is my opinion only )


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## jlarkin

The Systemic Kid said:


> Come up occasionally on the forum. Wouldn't be without mine - provide so much feedback and saves on coffee wastage too. Reckon mine will have paid for itself in about....50-100yrs


Question for you and @Mrboots2u - I know you're both running different machines and taste is king but it's easier to talk absolutes e.g. numbers

What kind of numbers are you generally hitting for TDS or EY with espresso? I know it's with the Londinium or V but I generally seem to be struggling to get EY higher than 22% (max.) with 19g dose, 55ish out an EK and Sage DB (running 3 secs preinfusion) and then full whack for however long is needed (23 - 35s so far).

I'm using La Cabra Brazilian (forgotten exact name) and it tastes a little sour once adding water and generally uninspiring, it's my thinking that I'd need to push it higher but interested to hear what others are getting in general terms


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## dan1502

They have been a bit bitter as they tended to be with the Anfim too. He has 20 in/ 30 out marked on his spreadsheet which seemed so out of step that I haven't really tried it. Also I struggle getting 20g into the 20g VST as the grinds are that fluffy it's like trying to tamp a mountain even after tapping all around.


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## Mrboots2u

jlarkin said:


> Question for you and @Mrboots2u - I know you're both running different machines and taste is king but it's easier to talk absolutes e.g. numbers
> 
> What kind of numbers are you generally hitting for TDS or EY with espresso? I know it's with the Londinium or V but I generally seem to be struggling to get EY higher than 22% (max.) with 19g dose, 55ish out an EK and Sage DB (running 3 secs preinfusion) and then full whack for however long is needed (23 - 35s so far).
> 
> I'm using La Cabra Brazilian (forgotten exact name) and it tastes a little sour once adding water and generally uninspiring, it's my thinking that I'd need to push it higher but interested to hear what others are getting in general terms


I have not measured in a while . In general Brazillians can give up extractions yields a bit easier . I have had stuff at 20-24 EY % some tasty , some not ...

You could be in the second " hump " and pushing through could get you more sweetness, it could just be that coffee has a limit where it is tasty .. Ive found some weirdness at 24 % before for some coffee's

TDS wise ive been all over 7.5 -10.5 ..Ive found it easier to do shorter ratios, higher EY an and therefore 19% plus with single dosed frozen beans and flat pressure profiles ... Around 10 tds tends to confuse my brain and clarity of shot a bit ( but that's just me ) ....


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## jlarkin

dan1502 said:


> I struggle getting 20g into the 20g VST as the grinds are that fluffy it's like trying to tamp a mountain even after tapping all around.


Maybe it's the darker roast causing this and I'm on new coffee burrs, but this isn't my experience at all. I use the 18g VST and 19g fits very well into this. Just a point of interest for me.


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## Mrboots2u

Coarser the grind , the less you can fit in ....


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## dan1502

This is at about 1.7 on the old style EK coffee burrs with them having been zeroed to the point I backed off just enough to stop the chirping. Once tamped it fits fine but they just seem to start off far fluffier and volumous so it's hard to start the tamp without spillage. Though maybe 1.7 is courser than I reliase. I don't know really as I've only pulled about a dozen shots.


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## Mrboots2u

dan1502 said:


> This is at about 1.7 on the old style EK coffee burrs with them having been zeroed to the point I backed off just enough to stop the chirping. Once tamped it fits fine but they just seem to start off far fluffier and volumous so it's hard to start the tamp without spillage. Though maybe 1.7 is courser than I reliase. I don't know really as I've only pulled about a dozen shots.


Pehaps easier to refer to number on a clock face rather than numbers on a dial easier for us to picture if we have different dials ....

Do you tap the pf downwards before you tamp ?


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## dan1502

I am using the 3 FE dial if that helps, aligned properly with the stop point of the pointer. I mentioned how I zeroed it as the instructions say to back off ten degrees from the chirping point whereas I just set it at the point it just stopped chirping.

I've been tapping the sides rather than down for some time now.


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## Mrboots2u

dan1502 said:


> I am using the 3 FE dial if that helps, aligned properly with the stop point of the pointer. I mentioned how I zeroed it as the instructions say to back off ten degrees from the chirping point whereas I just set it at the point it just stopped chirping.
> 
> I've been tapping the sides rather than down for some time now.


I have a different dial ..tapping down will along with the tapping of the sides will decrease the volume of the grinds before tamping ...


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## dan1502

Yes, I was just following Ron's routine (more or less). This morning I tried reverting to 20.1g of beans and tapping down (which solves the volume issue) on profile 3 aiming for 30g out. This took more or less bang on the 36s, perhaps with a slight overrun one it stopped. It was drinkable but bitter. I have just tried two more. I ground marginaly courser (just a touch) and the result was more or less the same but less drinkable so I moved the dial a shade courser again (tiny increments) and this time even less came out which I hope doesn't mean there are retained grinds needing purging with the EK. I am getting solid and reasonably dry pucks though. Tomorrow morning I'll go a bit courser and continue in small increments.


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## dan1502

I've not had much fun this morning. The Hill & Valley blend ran out so I cleaned the grinder, backflushed the machine then started trying some El Salvador #1 from Rave. I've had it a while longer than ideal but it's been in the freezer.

I thought I'd start with Profile 1 which is the lever profile. I dialled it in to 20g in 39 out in about 36 seconds and it tasted horrible to the point I don't know where to go with it. Any ideas? It nearly made me sick with a horrible aftertaste. I don't think there would be any Puly Caf left in after three seasoning shots. If a different profile would be worth trying please provide the profile details as I have various spreadsheet versions.

On another note and probably for my maintenance thread rather than hear I did notice that when I put the burr carrier back in the other way it chirped on a significantly coarses setting so I put it back the other way but I guess this means the burrs could do with aligning however I was thinking that I should probably wait until they're worn in before attempting this?


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## Mrboots2u

As previous said - pull longer shots ...20g > 45 to 50 g out ...Why ? See my previous post on here ( post 16 )

Forget profiles.. stick to one , dont matter which , just pick a simple one > brew ratio and grind is gonna make way more difference that a PP


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## dan1502

Thanks. I was planning on a longer shot but the profiles stopped at aronund 36s. Would you suggest grinding coarser to get 45 to 50g out is around that time or letting the extraction run longer with the same or similar grind? Regarding the profile, it would still be useful to know which you would recommend for lighter roasts and depending on the above I may need to adjust one to keep running longer (unless I use Ron's lungo profile).


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## Mrboots2u

dan1502 said:


> Thanks. I was planning on a longer shot but the profiles stopped at aronund 36s. Would you suggest grinding coarser to get 45 to 50g out is around that time or letting the extraction run longer with the same or similar grind? Regarding the profile, it would still be useful to know which you would recommend for lighter roasts and depending on the above I may need to adjust one to keep running longer (unless I use Ron's lungo profile).


Pick one.... stick to it , none will make a massive difference as the BR you are using ...forget about time unles your on the extremes . Kill the shot by weight , taste , adjust , if stuck dilute the shot a little . Time wise 25- 45 will ok , palate dependent ...

A profile for me isnt gonna make a light roasted shot 3 times sweeter , it's the icing on the cake .

I have used - long pre infusion - short ramp to 8-9 bar.. all kinds of stuff

I use flat 6 bar again at moment , but whatever you pick - stick with a lever if you want , stick to it for now . Persoanlly id be using a lower pressure than 9 bar for now with an EK ... either a short ramp to 6-8 bar or a flat 8 bar ( this will effect your grind require to some degree , so pick one , stay with it )

I know Ron has a load of profiles but none of em were for lighter roasted beans ( Ron just doesn't drink em ) and being honest unless your doing somethings really weird like 6 bar > 2 bar > 9 bar then start at basics and get your Brew ratio sorted for a bean and the EK , then think about different profiles....

Remove PP as factor , remove dose , tamp and temp . Id set a Brew Ratio also .

Lets say 20g > 48 g ( you can choose one though ) . Then adjust the grind til you get a sweet shot .. Don't look at time , don't look at the naked pf ... adjust the grind til you get near the notes or it tastes good ....

Do you like espresso neat btw ...


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## Mrboots2u

If you want something to copy or as a base , this is where i am at moment

20g dose 20g vst... flat 6 bar weight out 42-48 g bean dependent . time 30-45 seconds I tend to fine longer timed shots are sweeter .

Grind setting will be bean dependent , and i am freezing my single doses , so wont apply to you ...

This will not gauretee tasty , we are using different beans, water , burrs and gobs....


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## dan1502

Thanks. It gives me a steer which is what I need right now. A flat 6 bar would easy; I'll either try that or extend one of the others so it doesn't stop at 36s. I am using 20.2g doses from the fridge into the EK into a 20g VST. Temperature is set at 94 degrees currently. I agree with sticking with one profile; that's what I've been doing until now but it was the one Ron recommended for dark roasts and as you say I was conscious that's all he drinks. I was just a bit thrown as I don't think I've ever tasted as disgusting a shot (and that's no criticism of the beans or roast). I've adjusted the tamp a bit to account for less volume from the finer grinds needed for lighter roasts. I'll read through your advice again tomorrow morning and shall hopefully have more joy.


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## Mrboots2u

Keeps your beans out the fridge . Don't use the freezer either .

I know Ron loves the fridge beans but again he is out his own with that one...

Keep stuff nominal . Beans stored as normal.


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## ronsil

As in all things coffee its the taste that should rule.

Light/dark beans aim to produce what you like. I'm all about the darker roast.

Learn to do what suits you.

Listen to advice/suggestions on here but at the end of the day learn to know what you like & stay with it.

Whatever, run a simple profile & as stated its the grind & ratio that rule.

BTW I only chill the beans for use in the Oracle because I find it works better. Would never chill the beans going into the EK.


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## Mrboots2u

ronsil said:


> As in all things coffee its the taste that should rule.
> 
> Light/dark beans aim to produce what you like. I'm all about the darker roast.
> 
> Learn to do what suits you.
> 
> Listen to advice/suggestions on here but at the end of the day learn to know what you like & stay with it.
> 
> Whatever, run a simple profile & as stated its the grind & ratio that rule.
> 
> BTW I only chill the beans for use in the Oracle because I find it works better. Would never chill the beans going into the EK.


Sage advice Ron ( puntastic ) .. I agree , try and find your own way ....


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## dan1502

I appreciate that I need to try it my own way and work it out for myself but until recently I've generally managed to make consistently acceptable coffee. I'm just trying to get to a point where I can dial in to a decent cup then refine from there but right now I'm struggling to make even acceptable coffee. I did initially make some quite nice shots with the Hill & Valley accidentally though. With these current beans I can't really get close. I just went back to square one. Set a profile ramping up in 1s stages from 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 to 6 bar then staying at 6. Temperature 93 degrees. I must've pulled 15 to 20 shots, adjusting the grind. None were drinkable. Strangely I found myself adjusting steadily courser then when going back down nothing much happened i.e. same shot time for small increments finer until at one point I moved it about double the previous increment and it made a huge difference. Anyway I've now stopped through frustration and as that batch of doses of beans is finished.

One thing I did notice though was that although the beans smell ok, once ground I didn't really like the smell. The beans are almost 3 months old and have been kept in the freezer in sealed bags since day one. I did this as I ordered some Hill and Valley to try; I don't usually keep them more than a month. Should I just store them in the bag in a cool dark cupboard then say make up enough doses for the week ahead?

What I would really like is for someone to come around and give my setup a go. I suspect they would manage to dial a nice bean in fine and I would then have the confidence in what can be produced and learn from watching. I don't know whether there is anyone local to me who has a similar setup who would be willing to do this. I would be happy to pay for training if it gets me on track.


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## Mrboots2u

@dan1502 - personally I would get some fresh beans...

What is it about the drinks you are making that you do not like ( bitter ? not sweet ? Sour? Lacking Body ? )

How are you drinking them? Neat ? with milk ?

Don't take this the wrong way - do you like espresso, what espresso have you liked , either made my yourself or in a cafe ..

What water are you using also ( just as a sense check )

You have not related what brew ratios you have tried and what was lacking . Just they don't taste good.

Have you tried a longer ratio. Over what time. How did it taste .. without this we are pissing in the dark trying to help you adjust

The pain you are feeling is to some degree what we all went through with an EK , if that helps .

Get some coffee, perhaps stuff you know you like and know the taste off , not frozen , not in the fridge. let it rest 7 days

Baring that I am in Lancaster , but i do not drive , so i could not visit . I have the same set up.. But we may have entirely different tastes, I do not drink any stuff roasted to the level of Hill and Valley ...baring that if you are desperate I could arrange some time in Lancaster with you or perhaps at the local cafe .. I am not a trainer though , i just make coffee that I enjoy. it's possible a cafe liek the Hall might do some trainign for cash or someone like @garydyke1 ( this would be more useful than me as he is proper good and taught me most of what i know ) but drop me a Pm if that helps. Or perhaps @thesystemickid might help , he has more time on his hands than me ...


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## dan1502

Thanks. I have tended to drink flat whites but do like espresso if it's well balanced. I spent years buying various beans from Hasbean, mostly from Brazil, El Salavador and Nicaragua. That was when I had my Brewtus and Macap M4D. I went to Cup North last year and had a quick lesson from Charlotte Malavel which I found very useful. I hadn't been timing or weighing shots up until then. I bought the R58 around then and then the Anfim. I've since been buying and sticking with the same beans for longer in order to improve my technique. I probably stuck to three different beans from Foundry for six to nine months, particularly enoying the Rocco Mountain. My coffee improved considerably at least especially in terms of dialling in and consistency as I understood the impact of what I was doing better. I was worried about adding the variable of pressure profiling but couldn't resist Ron's Vesuvius when it came up so locally and well the same goes for the EK43. It's funny that with the EK, the first couple of shots were what I would have though to be over extracted in that about 20g cam out in 35s (Hill & Valley) but they tasted very sweet.

In terms of beans, my plan is to buy some more of the Rocco Mountain once it's available again and stick with it for a while.

I have been tasting every shot I pull as espresso then adding milk if I get it to where I want it. On (rare) occasions when they've been really nice I have polished the shot off. With these latest beans I'm struggling to even describe in what way they taste wrong they're that bad. They can be very acidic, sour, but with bitter burnt after taste and lingering in the mouth/on the tongue for ages. They're that bad I feel like just throwing the 350g bag I have left away (or using it to season the burrs) but I am wondering whether it is just me and they could be nice as the description on the Foundry website sounds good.

Thankyou for your kind offer. We've just booked a much need holiday to Sicily leaving next weekend for 10 days so I won't be able to do anything until after that. Lancaster isn't a million miles away but I am thinking that if someone could visit and dial things in to produce good shots here it would give me confidence in my setup and at least leave me being able to enjoy really nice coffee for a while.

Regarding what I like, I am not that fussy but I do enjoy how different and sweet some of the lighter roasts I have tried can taste. When I first tasted the Rocco Mountain I was amazed how it tasted different to anything I'd had before and everyone who drank it really enjoyed it (flat whites).

In terms of brew ratios I put 20.2g doses in the EK (I've not weighed what comes out), 20g VST basket, I'm not shaking at present but grinding directly into the PF using a 3d catcher then distributing with a Chinese device from here then tamping using the Mahlgut. I was aiming for about 45g out in about 40 seconds. I found that for a few shots moving the dial about half a mark finer each time the time taken seemed to stick at 35s for a few shots then for the last dose I moved it about one and a half marks and suddenly it took about 50 seconds or just over.

Previoulsy I've dialled in by pulling a shot and it either flowing fast, going blonde, thin and tasting acidic so dialling finer or starting to choke, flowing slowly and being thick and tasting bitter so grinding coarser but I did then tend to stick to 18g/36g or 20g/40g and probably focus too much on this and the time rather than taste. I was getting decent shots but my main problem was consistency with the main cause being not purging enough with the Anfim i.e. drinking only one each morning and making two on weekends but when I was making more for visitors I was able to be much more consistent. I thought the EK would solve this problem due to it's lack of retention i.e. I could hopefully once dialled in for that been chuck one dose in and it be pretty decent (though I realise day to day refining is required to get god shots) and just tweek it as the beans age or when I buy another batch.


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## Mrboots2u

Ok few points - weight the dose in the Pf .. the ek has some retention, I use RDT but even then i always weight my dose in the pf ...

Ignore blonding as a indicator...

Ignore thinking of or describing as under or over extracting . Your 20 g out shot will have been under extracted , you are describing it as over extracted . It's just if you use the incorrect terminology and we don't have the brew recipe we can't correct or will give misleading advice . Stick to descriptors like sweet, bitter, sour, strong etc.. If you can't tell what's going on in a neat shot add a small amount of water to it , taste and try again.. This will decrease the strength and open up the flavours to allow you to try describe any imbalance.

Having said all that , as said before your shots at 1:2 are more than likely strong and under extracted....

It may be the EK isnt for you , it's flavour profile and type of espresso isn't the same as an Anfim or more traditional grinder . People tend to get them as they use then for brewed and espresso and love , longer lighter sweets shots that they are capable of. The small retention is just a bonus .

Personally i wold see if you can get @garydyke1 to you , it will be money well spent . He has an EK43 , he doesn't have a V but that is not they key part of the training you need . Dialling in and adjusting the grinder is ...


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## dan1502

Thanks, yes, I do get confused with under and over extracting. The trouble is they were all strong though I did manage to get them to be less so by grinding coarser and very sour. They were all that bad that I was struggling to know where to go. I shall try adding water. On the subject of water, I have been using Ashbeck but more recently have been adding about a third Volvic with it. However half way through this morning's session I ran out so was forced to add some Buxton.

I would like to see how I go with the EK before deciding whether or not it's for me. On the few occasions I got nice shots I really enjoyed them and may well find myself drinking more espresso. And small retention is a big thing for me. The only other grinders I hear of that have minimal retention and big burrs are the R120 and the Versalab both of which would cost a huge amount more than I paid for the EK. The Anfim is a very good grinder but I don't really like using a doser all that much and it (as most) is not great for one shot each morning.

I shall see whether Gary could help and what it would cost. In the meantime I'll digest all that you have so kindly said in time for when the Rocko are available as I'm familiar with how they can taste.

Brewed is something I've yet to try properly. I do have an Aeropress so would like to at some point.


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## Mrboots2u

dan1502 said:


> Thanks, yes, I do get confused with under and over extracting. The trouble is they were all strong though I did manage to get them to be less so by grinding coarser and very sour. They were all that bad that I was struggling to know where to go. I shall try adding water. On the subject of water, I have been using Ashbeck but more recently have been adding about a third Volvic with it. However half way through this morning's session I ran out so was forced to add some Buxton.
> 
> I would like to see how I go with the EK before deciding whether or not it's for me. On the few occasions I got nice shots I really enjoyed them and may well find myself drinking more espresso. And small retention is a big thing for me. The only other grinders I hear of that have minimal retention and big burrs are the R120 and the Versalab both of which would cost a huge amount more than I paid for the EK. The Anfim is a very good grinder but I don't really like using a doser all that much and it (as most) is not great for one shot each morning.
> 
> I shall see whether Gary could help and what it would cost. In the meantime I'll digest all that you have so kindly said in time for when the Rocko are available as I'm familiar with how they can taste.
> 
> Brewed is something I've yet to try properly. I do have an Aeropress so would like to at some point.


Water should be fine Id stick to Volvic as a base though .. Buxton dunno , but i doubt it's at the root of the problems. Personally I would not use it ..

the Ek does what it does , it's different to nearly all other grinders for espresso in the prep needed , and taste profile it produces. It is not for everyone though and there is no shame in that..Retention is not a primary reason or keep one ( especially if not using it for brewed )

To anyone else buying one i always say go and try shots from one before you get one ....

Another thought is dropping @CallumT a message on here or via foundry as he works with Lee , to see if he can do training as well. He is an old hand at the EK ...


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## dan1502

That's an idea as I am happy to buy their beans and Sheffield isn't so far away. I didn't have all that much time to researh the EK though I had of course seen and heard of them. It was an opportunity not to be missed where I had to act very quickly. I don't mind changing the EK if it's not for me but I think I should give it a good chance first. I'll never get an opportunity like the present one to try one again. The Buxton was only as it was all I had left. Unfortunately Tesco (from where we get deliveries) only do small bottles of Ashbeck which is ok for mixing with Ashbeck but stupidly expensive if using on its own.


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## dan1502

So I read through all the Barista Hustle articles culminating with the espresso recipes pulling it all together process and spent a couple of hours experimenting and tasting this morning. It was useful in that I had a process to follow and as I was weighing beans in and output of the EK I now have a good idea about that. Retention was generally very low and pretty consistent but occasionally a bit more would come out than went in which I guess was it releasing some retained grinds. I shall weigh output from now on.

My routine was: weigh about 20.1g to 20.2g of beans, two sprays of water with an atomizer, shake the beans, grind into a metal milk jug, shake, pour into the PF using a 3d printed catcher, tap around the edges, flatten using a levelling tool (chinese ones off here), tamp with the Mahlgut and then extract using a profile ramping from 2 to 6 bar in 1s 1 bar increments then a static 6 bar.

I started at 20g in, 40g out and got that to 27s. I then increased the yield even as far as 70g but settled on 55g. I then experimented with lots of grind settings as low as the grinder would go which is 1 on my dial to just over 2 in 1 graduation increments. It wasn't choking at the lowest setting.

I kept about 4 or 5 shots to taste the changes.

I got my wife involved at the end and all were still awful but changes could be tasted. However we both agreed that the beans before grinding and after grinding had the same nasty sour smell as the taste.

I had a few beans left so just ran them through to help bed in the EK burrs. We're going away to Sicily next Sunday so I shall not bother with coffee until we return. I'll clean everything ready to try again once we've returned. In the meantime I might try and get the training booked in as I think I'm at the point it would be really helpful and hopefully result in a lot less frustration and coffee wastage.

Thanks for all your help. It really is appreciated.

So for now the conclusion is that the beans are probably off (I've not knowingly had off beans before hence not being sure about recognising this). I shall try again with something I'm more familiar with like the new batch of Rocco Mountain once available from Foundry.

I shall then arrange some training as I feel I at least understand the processes at work now so should be better prepared to get the most from it. My wife is also happy to be involved as whilst she probably can't be bothered with the faff involved in initially dialling in, another set of taste buds should be useful to me and once dialled in she might then be happy to make her own coffee.

I just hope that it is just a case of me getting the hang of it with some decent fresh beans as I would hate to have to go through this amount of faff on a regular basis. I don't mind a bit of hassle dialling in if I can then stick with that bean for a good while and only have to make minor adjustments though and I don't mind the short pulling routine either.


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## dan1502

Training booked with @garydyke1


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Some things wot I has learned this week:

1. Especially when ordering a kilo, if you go coffee at a low speed like I do, then you can expect a noticeable change in freshness before the end of the bag. Hint: counter to his by grinding finer, *not* by tamping harder, which seems to be a trap I fall into when attempting to stop overly quick pours. You can easily adjust your grind, but adjusting back to the 'correct' level of tamp (using finger and thumb just to the resistance point) can take a lot longer when moving to new bag...

2. Nututating is bad m'kay? So I was having a really odd problem with the Foundry Rocky Road - I either ground course enough to get a pour under 30 secs, in which case I got a lovely steamed vegetable tasting note, or I would basically choke the machine, get a rediculously long pour and lose all the sweetness. Take out the nututation and low a nod behold, I can now get reasonable length pours with finer grind. Obviously this means a lot more attention to levelling and tapping prior to tamping, but I was doing this anyway - a few downward taps at this grind level result in a quite dense base as it is, nututation can make this too dense before you even tamp (and I found my results were oddly variable as well). Nutation has been a part of my process for so long now (seemed almost essential with previous machine) that it was quite difficult to give up, but trust me, with (half) decent prep it's really not required.

I know both these things are probably at the 'well duh' level for most of our more seasoned members, but thought I was share my learning process in case there are others out there like me


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## dan1502

Had an excellent day with @garydyke1 yesterday. More details later but we immediately identified where the main problem lay which was as my gut had told me. This morning I enjoyed a gorgeous flat white just bursting with fruitiness and sweetness and and I'm sure there's further to go as I know I didn't get everything in my routine spot on. It looks like I shall (reluctantly as I shall get even more odd looks from guests) have to buy a sifter though due to results as that and the water have been demostrated to make bit differences. Has anyone found one which leaves less around the edges than the Tala or modified one and if so how as I already find that a bit annoying.


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## dan1502

In case it's of interest to anyone I just went into our local Wilko to see if they had a decent sifter and it turned out there's is too wide but I did notice they have Kilner funnels for £3 reduced from £4 and they're cheap at £4. They are the ones I modified to use as a hopper for throwing single doses in.


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## dan1502

Just to expand a little, I now realised the importance of cupping to check the natural taste of the beans as a reference before producing espresso. It turns out the problems I was having were due to a bad batch of beans so no wonder I couldn't get them to taste nice. We were getting EY of about 21.9 from the Rocko and I suspect if we were to test now it will have risen due to a better water blend working its way through my machine (hopefully more to come). With a nod to the earlier posts, we were putting 20g in, 46g out in. Currently this is taking about 51s (1.6 on the dial) which is a few seconds longer than when Gary was here but it's tasting so good as a milk drink I'm inclined to leave it where it is for now though I shall probably back off the grind slightly as an experiment and/or if the better water results in signs of bitterness/over-extraction as it works through the boiler. I'm currently getting tiger stripes so suspect I should probably back off slightly but it still tastes great and I like the intensity. The fermented fruit flavour of the natural beans certainly bursts through now and I'm enjoying the best milk drinks I've had from it. I feel I should be able to make sense of everything now. The next big step shall be putting it all into practice different beans but for now I shall just fine tune what I have including experimenting with distribution technique. I also need to get more consistent with my milk foaming technique and learn/practice latte art.

(Edited to add I'm using a steady ramp up to 6 bar as a profile)


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## Phobic

@dan1502 just read this entire thread, great to see you've got to grips with things, must have been frustrating.

Can you expand a bit on the sifter please, what's the rationale for using one and what difference did you see flavor wise?

Is this more about breaking down boulders & giving the grinds a good mix, or are you actually sifting out some of the larger grinds?


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## Mrboots2u

Phobic said:


> @dan1502 just read this entire thread, great to see you've got to grips with things, must have been frustrating.
> 
> Can you expand a bit on the sifter please, what's the rationale for using one and what difference did you see flavor wise?
> 
> Is this more about breaking down boulders & giving the grinds a good mix, or are you actually sifting out some of the larger grinds?


It's to improve distribution and break clumps like a doser , it's doesn't really sift stuff out. Allows me to get a more even naked of extraction


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## dan1502

My issues were primarily down to a bad batch of beans. Hopefully I shall now be able to recognise that going forward. @garydyke1 or others will be able to comment better on the sifter but it's to produce a nice fluffy mound of grounds in the portafilter. A side to side shake then produces a nice level distribition in the portafilter before tamping. I am actually finding I do get bolders reforming when performing this side to side shake though so am still using my chinese push like levelling tool before tamping. I don't have a refractometer so can't provide any specific measurements with reagrds to the effect but have seen and tasted the difference even distribution (in general) makes. Calibrating has also been positive.


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## Phobic

Thanks both,

I actually meant breaking down clumps above versus sifting out boulders - I think boulders are chunks of coarse grinds rather than clumps which are fine grinds stuck together?

I'm currently grinding into a tumbler and then whisking, have noticed immediately with the EK that I need to tap the PF on the counter twice (rather than shake it or tap the side) to get the grinds in given how fluffy they are.

I'm then using a Chinese twist (rather than push) distributor before tamping.

I do notice that whisking will clump the grinds slightly but in a much looser heaped kind of way, results seem good so far so will keep with this method for now unless anyone thinks there's any problems with it, then will try out a sifter once I get use to the EK.


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## Mrboots2u

I used to wisk , prefer the sifter ( use Chinese OCD too )


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Grrr.... I was gifted a tala sifter with the v, but had already put it in the category of 'too faffy'. So I tried it today, and it dies make a difference doesn't it? My routine just moved from 'tricky' to 'rediculous'









not entirely sure you need arms like that though - a fine mesh would probably do just as good, but obviously you need to get it through... The 3D printed funnel works well with this, though.


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## dan1502

Apart from how daft it seems the three things that I feel could be improved with the sifter are the hole where the lever wire goes through (sorted with a biro top), the length of the blades meaning grinds accumulate at the edges and a brush is needed to get them through and there's a lip on the bottom 'funnel' of the sifter meaning more tapping is needed than ideal. A clean sweep mod would be good. I nearly bought a larger sifter from Wilkos to cut the veins down to fit precisely but it only had six rather than eight veins. It's not a project I'm desperate to sort anytime soon though as I've got used to using it so feel less frustrated by it than I did immediately after it was demostrated during my training with Gary.


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## garydyke1

Is there a pic of this biro lid mod?


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## dan1502

It's the end of a biro, some of which have a hole in. A grommet would also do but this fits well.


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## Phobic

I'm wondering if the 3d printed PF funnel could be altered to take a disc of wire mesh. Maybe make it so it splits apart and locks back together in the middle, raise the sides up a bit and then grind straight into the PF then tap through what doesn't go in by itself.


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## UbiquitousPhoton

Grinds will sit on top a fair bit though, you would need some sides on that contraption, otherwise you will basically be blowing fines over a very wide area...

Had pretty much the same idea myself tbh, but not sure if it would work or not.


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## Phobic

yeah I'm thinking something like 1" below the mesh and 2"+ above. Maybe a future project once I've got things settled down


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## UbiquitousPhoton

I came from further down the tech tree than you did, I think, but its taken me about 2-3 months to get a solid understanding of how and why things go wrong, and actually hit the sweet spot as a regular occurrence. I changed machines at the roughly the same time though, so its been something of a journey...


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## dan1502

Phobic said:


> yeah I'm thinking something like 1" below the mesh and 2"+ above. Maybe a future project once I've got things settled down


Have you tried a sifter? It needs the mechanism to encourage the grinds through otherwise you'd have to shake or brush them through. What might be an idea is a 3d printed set of veins to fit the sifter snugly but this would mean introducing plastic and would have to be pretty thin to fit. It might be more hassle than it's worth. For the sake of a few quid it might be worth trying a sifter if you haven't already.


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## Phobic

thanks Dan, good insight, going to order a sifter, just waiting for my funnel to arrive from ******


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## Xpenno

dan1502 said:


> Have you tried a sifter? It needs the mechanism to encourage the grinds through otherwise you'd have to shake or brush them through. What might be an idea is a 3d printed set of veins to fit the sifter snugly but this would mean introducing plastic and would have to be pretty thin to fit. It might be more hassle than it's worth. For the sake of a few quid it might be worth trying a sifter if you haven't already.


Yeah that sifter is a little bit clunky and prone to falling apart (maybe just my clumsy fat fingers). I found another brand but can't remember where I got it, it's plain metal, is more solidly built and retains less. Worth looking out for.


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## dan1502

There are so many different ones around and it's hard to gauge the sizes so I just went with what others have used. Wilko's do one for about £4 or £5 which is plain and slightly bigger but may well still fit. Mine doesn't seem to be particularly flimsy though but it is early days. If you bought yours online and have and perhaps have an email receipt still do share.


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## Xpenno

dan1502 said:


> There are so many different ones around and it's hard to gauge the sizes so I just went with what others have used. Wilko's do one for about £4 or £5 which is plain and slightly bigger but may well still fit. Mine doesn't seem to be particularly flimsy though but it is early days. If you bought yours online and have and perhaps have an email receipt still do share.


Think I got it from an independent kitchen accessories shop in brum.


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