# Sticky  Machines, what do you get for your money



## coffeechap

In a similar vein to my other thread on grinders, I thought I would put up a thread on machines and what you will get for your money as a little helper for new members and those of us considering an upgrade, I am by no means a standing authority on machines but I have had my fair share of both pump and lever machines.

Firstly I will delve into the different types of machines that are available for you to get your mitts on.

Single Boiler :

This is a pump driven machine that's characterised by the fact that it only has one boiler to brew the coffee and most of the time the steam function as well (some machines may have a thermo block to take care of steaming), so the forum favourites that sit firmly in this bracket are the Gaggia classic and the rancilio silvia. (There are many others and I will list more when specifically looking at price)









Now these machines are generally regarded as the entry level into decent espresso, they will tend to have small brew boilers (although some like the Vibiemme Domobar have much larger brew boilers) and require some form of temperature surfing in order to get to the correct brew water temperature for a great extraction. (There are loads of threads available on temp surfing)

The single boilers can be modified Using a PID ( Proportional - Integral - Derivative temperature controller) which will essentially keep the temperature much more constant. A down side to single boiler machines in general is the fact that you have to do both the brewing and the steaming in the same boiler. This means that there is a lag when the machine has to switch from the brewing thermostat to the steaming thermostat to get the temperature up to 135 Celsius for steaming; conversely you have to cool the temperature down if reverting back to brewing. The accepted methodology when using these machines is to do your espresso first then steam your milk second.

Single boiler machines are often more compact and more kitchen friendly due to the size and usually pass the significant other test much more easily, they are also the least expensive of the machines out there (in general) and are therefore much more affordable especially when starting out on your coffee journey.

Heat exchange machines (HX):

Again a pump driven machine either by vibratory or rotary pumps, these machines are characterised by the way that they get the water to the correct brew temperature. This is achieved via a pipe running through a steam boiler that is constantly sitting at steam temperature (usually indicated using a pressure gauge on the front panel, accepted ranges are between .8 and 1.5 bar pressure in the steam boiler). Cold water is fed into the base of the integral pipe via the pump, and is forced through the pipe to the group head, simply put, once the water reaches the brew head it has been sufficiently heated from the steam boiler water to give the correct extraction temperature.









One issue with HX machines is that if left to idle for long periods of time the water contained within the HX pipe will get up to steam temp and thus too hot for brewing espresso, so you are required to do a small cooling flush of the group (which means pumping enough water through the group to ensure only fresh water is going through the group) this will stabilise brew temperature again.

A great advantage of HX machines is that you can extract espresso and steam milk at the same time which makes multiple drink preparation much easier, they are also much more temperature stable than the single boiler machines (in general). They tend to be bigger in size (some are very compact e.g the simonelli oscar) and as such take up more counter space, they are also more expensive than single boiler machines and thus are harder to get past the significant other test.

Dual Boiler:

Once again a pump driven machine either by vibratory or rotary pumps, these machines are characterised by having independent boilers that control brew water and steam. One boiler is assigned to steaming as per the HX machines, the other usually PID controlled for temperature stability, control the water for the espresso extraction. The advantages of these machines is no cooling flush as the temperature in the brew boiler remains optimal because of the PID, also temperature is a lot more controllable, so you can play with the temperature that suits different roast profiles. Steaming and brewing can be done at the same time, although because the steam boiler tends to be smaller on DB machines (pro-sumer machines not commercial) you tend to get less steam power.









These are usually the more expensive of the machines out there but tend to be similar in size to the hx machines so take up a similar amount of counter space. These tend to be the most sought after pump machines of the home enthusiasts. With the introduction of the Vesuvius, you can now have complete pressure profiling in a dual boiler as well.

Lever machines:

In general there are two types of lever machines, sprung levers and hand pressure levers.

Hand pressure:- the user exerts the pressure on the puck by pushing down on a lever, these tend to be direct fed systems, whereby the water for the espresso comes straight out of the steaming boiler as per a la pavoni. When the lever is raised the piston goes past an entry hole in the group, steam pressure in the boiler then forces water into the cylinder and saturates the puck with water (pre infusion) pressure is then applied to the puck by pressing down on the lever, slow consistent pressure is essential to get a good extraction.









A disadvantage to most hand pressure lever machines is that the machine relies on the group to reduce the temperature of the water, however after pulling a few shots the group will absorb more and more heat and eventually become over heated and thus needs to be cooled down by switching off or using a wet towel. They are the cheapest of the lever machines (in general, cremina excepted) and usually have a small footprint. A wonderful advantage of this type of lever machine is the connection to the process however they can be difficult to master, users often become more frustrated by hand pressure lever machines than any other machine. But once mastered is capable of amazing shots of espresso. Milk steaming is usually taken care of by an outlet valve and is usually done after the espresso has been pulled. This type of lever machine tends to be the entry level

Sprung levers:- with these levers the pressure exerted through the puck is controlled by a spring in the group, when the lever is dropped down the spring is compressed, water again saturates the puck under boiler pressure (dipper) or via a HX or thermo syphon. When the lever is raised the spring applies pressure to the puck and steadily declines in pressure as the spring relaxes. This makes for a very repeatable process with many less variables and produces exquisite shots of espresso (I am a little biased here)









These tend to be more expensive and cover a wide range of machines from classic ones like the faemina to modern elektra models. The more expensive they get the better they get. The Londinium 1 regarded by many as the ultimate in home lever machines is close to £2000. Declining pressure and temperature profiles which these machines do naturally are sought after by many of the top end pump machine manufacturers.

Steaming and shot extraction can be done at the same time and usually the boilers are slightly bigger with bigger elements so plenty of steaming power, they tend to have a bigger foot print but not in all cases. The older lever machines are beautifully designed and still going strong (old examples can still be easily found).

What do get for your money?

Used or New?

The time old dilemma! Do you want peace of mind in the form of a warranty or do you want more bang for your buck by getting used or do you want a complete bargain you have to put time and effort into restoring?

Brand new machines will of course offer you a warranty which is more important with machines as there is a lot more to go wrong, especially the more complicated you go, a warranty will give peace of mind and usually back up when needed.

Buying from a trusted source, i.e forum members, means you will probably get a machine that has been cared for and has many years of life left in it, it will come at a much better price and more machine can be had for your money.

Buying from auction sites is a bit of a lottery when buying used but bargains and well looked after machines can be had, doer uppers can also be had, but be warned restoring machines can be very expensive and very timely, make sure you know what you are getting into before jumping in.


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## coffeechap

I will break this down into price brackets to sum up

Up to £500 -

What this gets you is the forum darling the Gaggia classic ether used (50 -100) or new, although older ones were better made, a rancilio silvia used (£250) or new, used simonelli oscar and used fracino cherub both HX machines (£350- £500)

Used La Pavoni europiccola or Caravel hand lever (£200- £250), used pontevecchio, Elektra microcasa or older faemina £300 - £500. All used machines will depend on condition and love, forum purchased ones tend to get better money as they have usually been properly cared for.

£500 - £1000

Plenty of choice in this bracket, lots of new HX machines to consider, too many to list, used dual boiler e.g. Expobar DB (£800) used La Spas S1 (£850) New elektra Microcasa sprung lever and many other entry spring levers, used cremina or even a used BOSCO !!

£1000 - £2000

Again lots of choice here most of the brand new DB range as well as the top end HX machines Alex duetto and Qm Verona (£1800) Used L1 £1500 or new £1950 New Bezzera strega (£1350) You may even get fabulous single group commercial levers in this range (caution commercial levers and pump machines have much bigger boilers and are more expensive to run)

Above £2000

The world is your oyster, the new Vesuvius is a great buy at around £3000 (non pre order price) a Used or new GS3, a slayer one group if you have this sort of money it opens a lot of doors but be careful your wallet needs to be big for the rare lever machines.

This list is by no mean exhaustive and just gives you an idea what is out there, it is also only a representation of general pricing of used equipment, some folk have got amazing bargains on equipment. I am sure many will express differing opinions but please feel free to add to this thread with your thoughts the more info out there the better, but again most of all, enjoy the machine you have and the coffee you make and dont rush into buying something you wish you had waited on.


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## urbanbumpkin

Excellent Post Dave, worthy of making it permanent I think.


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## coffeechap

Might actually be an idea to have a list of the price of the new machines that are available within the different bands.


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> Might actually be an idea to have a list of the price of the new machines that are available within the different bands.


Possibly some quick links to home pages of BB and other forum advertisers who sell machines ?


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## Mouse

A cracking write up/summary as always CC!


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## drude

Very well written and useful post, with decent illustrations too.


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## Xpenno

Seriously awesome thread CC! There should be a getting started section on the forum where this type of info lives. Could make peoples lives a lot easier.


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## c_squared

Excellent summary CC.


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## Mrboots2u

Now a sticky


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## Charliej

Excellent post Dave, the idea about prices etc. is great


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## Pompeyexile

Excellent thread just wish that I'd had this to hand before I dived in. Not that I'm complaining about my Gaggia as it is a good starter machine on which to learn, but I'm wondering I may have paid well over the odds for mine which was over 5 years old even though it did have a PID and silvia wand fitted.

No matter, I know where to come if and when I ever get to be able to afford to upgrade. Oops! not forgetting....allowed to upgrade.


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## Wuyang

Sweet just what I needed.


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## hotmetal

Pompeyexile said:


> I'm wondering I may have paid well over the odds for mine which was over 5 years old even though it did have a PID and silvia wand fitted.


Don't know what you paid and won't ask but mine was a one-year old one with the Silvia wand, OPV, mesh screen and top of the range Auber PID. Came with (only) a naked PF and I think I paid about 200 quid. The PID retails at about US$125 on its own don't forget.


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## aphelion

Nice article Dave, cheers


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## Uldall

Thank you for this post









/Uldall


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## willbove

What's the small grinder in the top photo? Looks nice and compact


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## rors19

great post thanks mate


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## vivekvir

Very Informative post, any advise on buying an E61 HX machine ? How do the Fracino machines rate?


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## branding321

Great froum Seriously awesome thread CC! There should be a getting started section on the forum where this type of info lives. Could make peoples lives a lot easier Thanks for sharing.....


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## coffeechap

branding321 said:


> Great froum Seriously awesome thread CC! There should be a getting started section on the forum where this type of info lives. Could make peoples lives a lot easier Thanks for sharing.....


welcome to the forum, tell us a little about yourself


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## thecentennial

Very simple and clear guide - thanks. Perhaps thoughts on the "top 3" of each type?


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## davrot

Where does my gaggia brera sit on that list. Me thinks I need an upgrade...


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## Mrboots2u

LilieD said:


> *Hello everybody,*
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> So, I know nothing about coffee machine, sorry I'm just a Bakery/Pastry Manager . But I gonna open a bakery in London, and I would like to have the best informations about coffee machines so I registered with this forum *
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> I've some questions for you dear Baristas.*
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> - What do you think of the brand Faema ? Good or bad ?*
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> - What is the best brand for a coffee machine for a busy place?*
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> I received some informations froma supplier for Faema, and it's very expensive, so I would like to know , so I ask to the professional Baristas *
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> Thanks in advance for your replies !*


would probably be better in an new members thread than there ...

Mods?

I've moved it as suggested @Mrboots2u

Rob666


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## Mach

Thank you for this helpful piece.


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## flooke

Helpful discussion,

i learn more information about

1.Single Boiler :

2.Dual Boiler:


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## jamiegroom

Great post - now searching for a gaggia classic


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## Jimlee99

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaggia-Classic-Coffee-Espresso-Maker-/222250206331?hash=item33bf25047b:g:Jx8AAOSwAuZX2Xw4

Is this a good deal? im looking for a Gaggia Classic.


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## MediumRoastSteam

Jimlee99 said:


> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Gaggia-Classic-Coffee-Espresso-Maker-/222250206331?hash=item33bf25047b:g:Jx8AAOSwAuZX2Xw4
> 
> Is this a good deal? im looking for a Gaggia Classic.


It's hard to say. How's the machine been looked after? Has it been descaled regularly? Has it been backflused regularly? Has it been cleaned regularly? What's the state of the boiler?

A well-kept and looked after Gaggia Classic machine with the Steam Wand and OPV mod goes for around £150 in this forum.

Good luck.


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## ayush12345

Great thread.

Thanks a lot for the explanation !

AK


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## iGenie

Cool post mate, looks like I have more research to do.


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## Bulls6000

great Post!


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## Chap-a-chino

Having recently re-read this thread I now really appreciate the time and expertise taken in clarifying what can be a confusing and counter intuitive subject. Thank you.


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## Stevie-heathie

Great summary, thank you.


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## Craigy_bear

Brilliant post


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## AlwaysLate

Echo others previous comments as this is a great post, especially for the newbies such as myself!


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## inso

Great post - thanks


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## Bullettooth82

Great information thank you


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## Guest

Really helpful thread for a beginner like me!

Thanks!


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## BebeShanghai

This is a great post - thanks!

Have any great contenders been launched since that are worth considering?


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## Seftonplonjay

Ticketyboo! Thanks


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## Leedsmedic

I was wondering what people's thoughts on the Duo Temp were. I have a Smart Grinder Pro and am using a DeLonghi Scultura with a an unpressurized filter and am not sure exactly how much it is going to improve on my current set up. One main thing would be a decent stream wand but I'm less sure about the shot itself.


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## SoufianeSouf

The Gaggia Classic is at 250gpb brand new on Amazon. Is it worth it at this price or better go for second hand? Bearing in mind the need to get a good grinder as well (I am starting from scratch, budget of 400-450gbp)

Thnks


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## hotmetal

SoufianeSouf said:


> The Gaggia Classic is at 250gpb ... Is it worth it at this price or better go for second hand?


You might get lucky and find that our own @gaggiamanualservice.com on here has a properly refurbished pre-15 model with the 3-way solenoid for sale which may be better (or at least as good but £100 cheaper). That will leave you enough to get a better grinder (more important than the machine at that price point) plus the usual necessities like decent tamper, basket, scales etc.

___

Eat, drink and be merry


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## gaggiamanualservice.com

I sure do have


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## Aeroquaff

An excellent overview


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## Mark merritt

Thank you, a very helpful article.


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## BootsWithTheBurr

Thanks, great insight into the inner workings of machines


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## PompeyScot

Thanks for this post and thread. Doing some serious research into getting myself a machine and grinder again, and things like this are invaluable.


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## Tafka

This looks like a minefield


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## Mik3

another useful read for someone looking for their first machine, thanks!


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## jchun310

Thank you for the post. Really interesting.


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## Alam

It is a very informative post. Thank you.


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## Konstantinos

Currently looking into an upgrade from my Gaggia Classic, thank you for this post!


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## Dc42

Thoroughly enjoying the Melitta Barista Smart. BTC isn't everyone's cup of tea, or erm, never mind, but it is making coffees that everyone in the household is enjoying.

Definite upgrade from older machine.


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## AIMoon

In detail post. It helps me a lot. I am little bit confused. Can someone please help me?

If the price doesn't matter, which one should I choose? Gaggia classic or the rancilio silvia?


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## Jony

Gaggia Classic. and older version


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## ashcroc

AIMoon said:


> In detail post. It helps me a lot. I am little bit confused. Can someone please help me?
> 
> If the price doesn't matter, which one should I choose? Gaggia classic or the rancilio silvia?


The Silvia is considered the better machine (mainly down to it's bigger boiler) but probably not better enough (if that makes sense) to be worth the higher price.

If I were you, I'd get a pre-2015 classic & fit a MrShades PID for improved temp consistency.


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## AIMoon

Jony said:


> Gaggia Classic. and older version


 Thank you so much, Jony


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## AIMoon

ashcroc said:


> 5he Silvia is considered the better machine (mainly down to it's bigger boiler) but probably not better enough (if that makes sense) to be worth the higher price.
> If I were you, I'd get a pre-2015 classic & fit a MrShadea PID for improved temp consistency.


 Thank you for your good suggession, ashcroc


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## jimi

I am going to get a new machine this thread has been a great read for me, thank you very much Dave


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## Jony

Which Machine


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## AmanM

Thanks, very helpful!


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## spinal

Very useful, thanks!


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## ohnoh18

Great post, thank you!


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## ternary

Love the diagrams in OP, and approx prices for used machines in the price tiers - good info you don't usually get


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## Haylebarista

This is such a good summary, I've now definitely got upgraditus though....!


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## mnakh

This is a great summary for newbies like myself. I'm thinking new machine and used grinder - can't wait to get started!


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## Autocuratorsscotland

Thanks coffeechap, it's this wealth of knowledge that brought me to this forum!


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## moppy

Useful post, is there a guide somewhere on what to look out for when buying second hand coffee gear?


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## EvilLewis

Great post!

Currently looking for an affordable way into home espresso. Looking at potentially getting a pre owned gaggia classic as the best bang for my buck option.


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## Rhys

FrankMcGuire said:


> Honestly, don't understang reason for purchasing "second hand" gear. Difference in prices not as big as purchasing a new ones


 Depends on the "second hand" gear.. :classic_rolleyes:


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## mystik

FrankMcGuire said:


> Honestly, don't understang reason for purchasing "second hand" gear. Difference in prices not as big as purchasing a new ones


 I'm getting the sense that lockdown has increased used prices ...all that increased demand from people stuck at home wanting a decent brew...


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## Rincewind

mystik said:


> ...I'm getting the sense that *lockdown* has *increased used prices* ...all that increased demand from *people stuck at home* wanting a decent brew...


 You might be right, especially with regards to *used* Gaggia Classic's :classic_ohmy:


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## arb55

Great read, thanks for putting in all the details!


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## Like Medium Strong Coffee

Very useful post! Thank you!!,

!


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## SvenGB

This is the most useful thing I've seen on the internet since i hit puberty. Thankyou.


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## DanZH

James Hoffmann seems to be doing a best £1500 espresso machine video, would be interesting to see what he says about the prosumer category.


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## Jony

We can tell you on here before him 😎if you need any help


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## DavecUK

DanZH said:


> James Hoffmann seems to be doing a best £1500 espresso machine video, would be interesting to see what he says about the prosumer category.


 That's going to be interesting.


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## JJL

DavecUK said:


> That's going to be interesting.


 In one of his recent videos I saw the BDB, Silvia Pro, MaraX, Appartamento, and Profitec Pro 500 lined up behind him. it's probably the 5 machines he's reviewing.


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## SneakerFreak

Definitely worth looking at the James Hoffman videos


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## dreamliner

Could you please recommend some machine brands for home use? Maybe based on your experience, since I am not in the topic of coffee. Just want to enjoy a nice aromatic cup of coffee in the morning. Thank you for your answers in advance.


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## DavecUK

dreamliner said:


> Could you please recommend some machine brands for home use? Maybe based on your experience, since I am not in the topic of coffee. Just want to enjoy a nice aromatic cup of coffee in the morning. Thank you for your answers in advance.


 Welcome to the forum, It depends on 3 things:



Budget


Types of drinks you want to make


hobby or occasional use


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## Flat Eric

I was looking out for a used Gaggia Classic on ebay until James Hoffman did his "Best cheap espresso setup" video. I'm now waiting for the prices to drop to something sensible again. It would probably make more sense to buy a new one than pay £100 less for an old used machine!


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## Happyguy

Very helpful post


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## Bank0

Leedsmedic said:


> I was wondering what people's thoughts on the Duo Temp were. I have a Smart Grinder Pro and am using a DeLonghi Scultura with a an unpressurized filter and am not sure exactly how much it is going to improve on my current set up. One main thing would be a decent stream wand but I'm less sure about the shot itself.


 Hey on the off chance you read this, I have the same setup and am looking for an unpressurised filter for the Scultura. Would you be able to provide me with a link to the one you used? I am struggling to find one as there are no official measurements from DeLonghi.


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