# Sticky  Burrs Comparison (Pics)



## charris

*Grinders Burrs*


Compaq K8 PB/OD: Flat/83mm

Compaq K10 PB/OD : Conical 68mm

Compaq R120: Flat/120mm

Compaq R140: Flat/140mm (Requires 3 phase supply)

Eureka Mignon: Flat/50mm

Eureka Zenith 65e: Flat/65mm

Eureka Mythos: Flat/75mm

HG One: Conical/83mm

Mahlkonig EK43: Flat/98mm (Choice of Coffee or Turkish Burrs)

Mahlkonig K30: Flatl/65mm

Mahlkonig Vario: Flat/54mm (Choice of Ceramic or Steel Burrs)

Mazzer Mini: Flat/58mm

Mazzer Mini E: Flat/64mm

Mazzer Super Jolly: Flat/64mm

Mazzer Major: Flat/83mm

Mazzer Royal: Flat/83mm (Slower speed than the Major)

Mazzer Kony: Conical/63mm

Mazzer Robur: Conical/71mm

Versalab M3: Flat/68mm (Includes conical burrs to break the beans)


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## Glenn

Thread made sticky


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## charris

I will try to find more burr comparison pics to add to this thread. Even burrs on their own (no comparisons) could be useful.


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## Dylan

Might be interesting to have the EK-43 burrs in here, and maybe some speciality ones like the Vario Steel brew-only burrs.


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## charris

D_Evans said:


> Might be interesting to have the EK-43 burrs in here, and maybe some speciality ones like the Vario Steel brew-only burrs.


Agreed. Will do so


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## charris

Updated with some burr info for the most popular grinders used here.


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## Dylan

The vario steel burrs are coarse grind only, not suitable for espresso at all. And the ceramic one's are the opposite.


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## charris

D_Evans said:


> The vario steel burrs are coarse grind only, not suitable for espresso at all. And the ceramic one's are the opposite.


Agreed. They are both mentioned in the Vario information sentence


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## Bolta

I believe the K30 has flat burrs.


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## swooshy

great resource


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## DannyMontez

What are the advantages and disadvantages of flat burrs and conical burrs? Ie which is better?


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## Dylan

DannyMontez said:


> What are the advantages and disadvantages of flat burrs and conical burrs? Ie which is better?


That is a matter of debate, each has its advantages. There are a few here who have tried most of the grinders on the top end of the market in both flat and conical. I think conical burrs tend to retain more coffee, making them less suitable for the home user, but the pip the flat burrs in terms of flavour in the cup.


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## Mrboots2u

DannyMontez said:


> What are the advantages and disadvantages of flat burrs and conical burrs? Ie which is better?


Matter of preference and choice.

comes down to personal taste and what you want out of a grinder.

Low rentention , ability to deliver high extraction yields... List goes on . No two people taste the same - people like differing styles of espresso and extractions.

What's " Best "will only be for that person ...


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## charris

There is a general agreement that nothing can beat the taste of the big conicals e.g robur,k10 (huge retention is granted). This though is somehow changing now with the huge flats, the ek being the major leader of this change.


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## 4085

My K10 has very little retention actually


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## Mrboots2u

Ah general agreement.....

Try em, taste em

Decide which is best for you....you being anyone who wants to buy one.

One being any grinder conic or flat..

Big Conics make tasty drinks

So do big flats.....


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## coffeechap

Mrboots2u said:


> Ah general agreement.....
> 
> Try em, taste em
> 
> Decide which is best for you....you being anyone who wants to buy one.
> 
> One being any grinder conic or flat..
> 
> Big Conics make tasty drinks
> 
> So do big flats.....


so do little conic flat combos!


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## 4085

But big conicals are not really big as most have around 68 mm burrs whereas plenty of flat burrs are 83 going up to the 120 size on the Compak


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## coffeechap

bigger total surface area though dave because of the depth of the conics


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## Mrboots2u

coffeechap said:


> so do little conic flat combos!


Can we at least agree that 38mm conics ( mc2) aren't as good.....


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## Drewster

mrboots2u said:


> *can we at least agree* that 38mm conics ( mc2) aren't as good.....


*
burn him!!!!*


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## coffeechap

Mrboots2u said:


> Can we at least agree that 38mm conics ( mc2) aren't as good.....


hmmmmmmm YES


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## Charliej

Mrboots2u said:


> Can we at least agree that 38mm conics ( mc2) aren't as good.....


That all depends those burrs seem to work far better in a Hausgrind or a Lido 1 than in their motorised cousins.


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## risky

I've put together an album to show the difference between a set of old well-worn burrs and a new set which I thought might be of use to someone.



http://imgur.com/31aPA


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## Dallah

I have heard about the hybrid burrs but having a bit of a time wrapping my head around the idea. Anyone have a picture? Versalab have hybrid burrs?


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## frederickaj

Are any manufacturers burrs interchangeable . I've got a great offer of some mazzer 64mm burrs and wonder if they will fit a K6 ?


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## Dylan

ridland said:


> I have heard about the hybrid burrs but having a bit of a time wrapping my head around the idea. Anyone have a picture? Versalab have hybrid burrs?


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## wwweeewwweee

1. San Marco 64mm

2. Mythos 75mm

3. Eureka Olympus 75mm


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## pgarrish

These are 63.5mm (63.5 X 36 LH ) on a Santos 4


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## espressotechno

For a correct fit, the inside diameter & direction of rotation is also needed.


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## xpresso

And no ECM offerings to say the ECM 64 Auto resembles the T64, the similarities are very similar !!!!!!!.









Jon-Willy.


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## ajohn

Mrboots2u said:


> Can we at least agree that 38mm conics ( mc2) aren't as good.....


My impression is that the burrs aren't located very well on some models with that size burrs and are located well on some others so that the "distance" that they are apart while grinding is more consistent. That must make a difference to what they produce. The alignment of the 2 burrs would as well.

The same can be true of any size or type of burr.

The distance from the grinds chamber to the actual chute can vary so some grinders will retain more there than others.

Grounds when they come out of a grinder are noticeably warmer than the beans that went in. Is that why extraction differs according to the size and type of the burrs or is it just that one type are reckoned to produce flakes and conical something else? Some macro photo's I saw seemed to be arranged to show a difference rather than fact.

Flat burrs need to run at higher speed than conical to generate more centrifugal force to drive the grinds out. Conical use a sort of screw arrangement so could probably be run at any speed really. Size seems to relate to production rates - make conical bigger to increase the grams per second but still keep the speed low. Make flat bigger, keep the rpm the same and the production rate goes up.

Retention can be so compacted that it's permanent and the vast majority of it by a huge margin wont be disturbed when beans/settings are changed and not at all after several shots of these have been ground. The new bean will be recoating what was retained each time beans are ground. Is that the case on Mazzer's large conical burrs?

John

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## Rakesh

ajohn said:


> Is that why extraction differs according to the size and type of the burrs or is it just that one type are reckoned to produce flakes and conical something else?


Extraction can differ because different burr sizes and shapes can lead to different grind size distributions and the production of a different amounts of fines. Grind distributions plays a key part in the flavour profile in the cup and an increase in fines can mean a higher TDS and so a different mouthfeel aswell as flavour profile. I believe flat burrs do more 'cutting' of the beans whereas conicals crush more, this leads to a different ratio of fines which impacts extraction. Also what the burrs are made from can impact extraction as the 'cutting edge' of the burrs can vary greatly between different burr compositions.

Larger burrs tend to be better in the cup and extract better, mainly because bigger burrs are usually designed better and they have a larger grinding area, also able to run at lower RPM's without having long grind times they also generate less heat. Ofcourse smaller burrs can be designed well too but it can be expensive to produce smaller 60 odd mm flats that can compete with the titans, it has been done before though like the burrs mahlkonig put in the k30's. These still get blown away by the massive flat burrs companies like compak and mahlkonig are producing though.


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## hotmetal

And now for some totally meaningless anecdotal 'evidence' (in other words, there are obviously other factors to consider so I'm not really claiming anything) but here goes. I've got some beans in at the mo that are a medium roast natural. They're lovely. I had them as an espresso in the shop (Synesso, Robur E = big conical) and at home (R58, E37s = big flat). They were doing 20:40 in 25ish (VST). I've only got an 18g VST so have been running 19:38 @ 25. In the shop they manage to extract a noticeably sweeter funkier shot with more mouthfeel. Obviously they're professionals using a full-on 3 group whereas I'm just an enthusiastic amateur but I think the flat vs conic may well have something to do with the extra mouthfeel and deeper flavour profile.


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## espressotechno

For an exact fit: inner diameter, thickness & direction of rotation are also needed.


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## ajohn

Rakesh said:


> Larger burrs tend to be better in the cup and extract better, mainly because bigger burrs are usually designed better and they have a larger grinding area, also able to run at lower RPM's without having long grind times they also generate less heat. Ofcourse smaller burrs can be designed well too but it can be expensive to produce smaller 60 odd mm flats that can compete with the titans, it has been done before though like the burrs mahlkonig put in the k30's. These still get blown away by the massive flat burrs companies like compak and mahlkonig are producing though.


All of the flat burr models I am aware of run at 1200 to 1400 rpm and times 60/50 faster in the USA. To be honest though without gearing I wonder where the lower speed mentioned comes from. Looking at the Mazzer flat burr photo's shown in this thread the shape and size of the parts that do the major part of the grinding look to be identical and only the total number of them change with size.

John

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## grumpydaddy

You will see that the Mazzer Royal runs @ ~900rpm. Some of the more exotic grinders a lot less than that

A side by side comparison of Mazzer 84mm burrs for the Major, Royal and the 3 phase machine burrs will show that the angle of attack for the cutting edges changes on the higher power machines

Incidentally the speed of the royal is due to it having a 6 pole motor. the exotics often use dc


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## ajohn

Yes I wasn't aware that single phase 6 pole 900rpm motors were available until recently. 3 phase 6 pole have been generally available for as long as I can remember. All sorts of speeds are possible with brushed motors but generally weight and size come down as their speed increases. They can be made constant speed within limits as well. A common approach on 240v is to use a 180v and drive it via a speed controller circuit that usually can indirectly detect motor speed and boost the power to maintain speed under load. Or directly sense the speed which costs more.

One area that seems to be neglected in grinder discussions is how precisely the parts are made and how well the burrs are located relatively to each other. So if say an MC2 is poor is it down to that aspect or purely down to using a small conical burr. I have seen comments that on some small grinders the best thing to do is dismantle and wrap ptfe tape around the adjustment thread to remove the play. That certainly looks to be a good idea on a I-1 which uses flat burrs and metal on metal adjustment.







Annoying for me as when I sell it I will feel that I have to mention that. If it isn't done the burrs will tilt in use. In other areas it's surprisingly well made. Taking out the play also shows how accurately they are made -







On one anyway, the adjustment limit stop sets them extremely close to each other. It doesn't without the tape. They'll rub when the beans run out and may well tilt anyway due to how well the beans being ground are distributed.

Mazzer appear to use springs to get round the same problem. A Doge a rather precisely cut thread. It all leaves me wondering if the main aspect is just how well the grinders are made. Maybe even how well the burrs are finished. Flat against conical both well made could just be technical theory. I mean as one runs slower than the other it must generates less heat so it just has to be better for flavour and aroma

Manufacturers are very good at coming up for reasons for change that can be be misleading. Take ceramic burrs for instance. I'm pretty certain that the main reason for that change is their costs. They make a mould and cast them. It just has to be cheaper than machining and heat treating metal providing enough are sold. Going on drills I would give titanium coating a miss - it's great for hiding what's underneath it and sharp edges will still wear exposing what is underneath. Even bigger burrs? I looked up one that was mentioned and it grinds 7g / sec.







I'm not sure that I see that as an advantage. Some one reckons that the taste profile changes - does that mean that coffee suddenly has a better taste so people are double dammed if they don't buy one?

John

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## pgarrish

Worn and new LH 63.5mm flats (Santos 4)


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## ajohn

I should be comparing the grinder in a BE to a new Mazzer 64mm mini shortly however the burrs in that one are different to the ones fitted to a Jolly. How different pass. I can use the same beans to compare but past that things aren't so simple. I can aim for achieving the same brew pressure for both.

Bit of a problem with the Mazzer though that I need to discuss with the supplier before I use it.

John

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## psd

Stock Mazzer Mini E 64 mm burrs

VS

SSP Super Jolly red speed 64 mm burrs


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## Rhys

Versalab hybrid burrs (Terranova version)


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## JackHK

Lyn Weber 2018 Burrs


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## dsc

JackHK said:


> Lyn Weber 2018 Burrs


That is interesting, any more info on the single peak burrs? Very curious how they perform. I reckon I will have to switch to flat burrs at some stage :/

T.


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## JackHK

EG-1 new Ultra SSP burrs just launched


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## dsc

What does ultra low fines mean?

T.


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## xpresso

Kim. If you over there with the luggage space - Drop me a PM







.

Jon.


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## MrOrk

Could I just say (and I've just got back from the pub) wouldnt it be useful and appreciated somewhat of a tall order to see the results of a really good grind (singular ground magnified) and then compare the rest to that? May shed more light than simply looking at the burrs? I'm not sure if this is relevant in this thread, but certainly in conical vs flat threads and maybe flat burr diameter and speed comparisons.


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## MWJB

MrOrk said:


> Could I just say (and I've just got back from the pub) wouldnt it be useful and appreciated somewhat of a tall order to see the results of a really good grind (singular ground magnified) and then compare the rest to that? May shed more light than simply looking at the burrs? I'm not sure if this is relevant in this thread, but certainly in conical vs flat threads and maybe flat burr diameter and speed comparisons.


Wouldn't really tell us much that is useful, at an average grind size in an espresso dose there might be half a million particles (many, many more fines, less boulders), spread from a few um to over a mm. Which ones are we looking at/comparing to, how many different sizes & shapes would there be, how do we know which ones we want & which we don't?


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## MrOrk

MWJB said:


> Wouldn't really tell us much that is useful, at an average grind size in an espresso dose there might be half a million particles (many, many more fines, less boulders), spread from a few um to over a mm. Which ones are we looking at/comparing to, how many different sizes & shapes would there be, how do we know which ones we want & which we don't?


i guess the answer to that one would be to take a sample of x amount of grounds and look for consistency or lack of?


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## MWJB

MrOrk said:


> i guess the answer to that one would be to take a sample of x amount of grounds and look for consistency or lack of?


But you can't tell consistency by looking, just relative fineness if both grinders make a similar distribution.

For coarser grinds you can sift through a pair of known sieves, but espresso grinds are less suitable for sifting.

Nobody will really tell you what consistency is in terms of good/normal/bad anyway.

If the manufacturer has an LPA plot they could show that, but without 10%/90% or 16%/84% markers & a median, they're difficult to interpret.

"Ultra low fines" burrs sound more brew oriented anyway, so there are more options for objective study.


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## dsc

MWJB said:


> "Ultra low fines" burrs sound more brew oriented anyway, so there are more options for objective study.


I'm actually curious what their definition of ultra low fines is, thus the question. I really wish manufacturers were less vague when it comes to describing things.

T.


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## JackHK

xpresso said:


> Kim. If you over there with the luggage space - Drop me a PM
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Jon.


Sorry always limited luggage space, but next month you are welcome to ordre and pick up in my place, probably its will be the same price but more fun


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## JackHK

Ditting K804 Lab Sweet Burrs


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## JackHK

Slingshot Technology upcoming patented Bi-Conical Burrs - a fusion of conical and flat burrs


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## xpresso

Looks an expensive combination from a manufacturing point of view.

J.


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