# Londinium L1 sold here. Should I go for it?



## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Hi

There is L1 sold here at this moment. Should I buy it?

Please tell me the advantage and disadvantages of L1

For example: the L1 give a result of 10. If I need only 8-9/10, is there any value-4-money alternative that can give the acceptable result?

Thanks

JK


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

Yes you should but read my later comments also!


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

What do you have at the moment JK?

As far as I am aware the Londinium is the gold standard for single group lever machines (I believe that comes from Dave, but I may be mis-quoting)


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Have you tried a shot from a lever before?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Jk, a lever machine produces a completely different flavour profile to a pump. In simple terms, the same beans ran through both machines will taste different. A spring lever machine is a traditional machine. You will not get a better lever than an L1 but you need to try one first. If you state where you are, there maybe an L 1 owner near to you


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## Walter Sobchak (Nov 29, 2012)

Would you notice the taste difference in milk based drinks?


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

D_Evans said:


> What do you have at the moment JK?
> 
> As far as I am aware the Londinium is the gold standard for single group lever machines (I believe that comes from Dave, but I may be mis-quoting)


Sorry, may be you will give me a LOL. I have Gaggia Classic at this moment



jeebsy said:


> Have you tried a shot from a lever before?


Thanks for asking. You may also give me LOL again.

No, Not yet. Just saw on YouTube



dfk41 said:


> Jk, a lever machine produces a completely different flavour profile to a pump. In simple terms, the same beans ran through both machines will taste different. A spring lever machine is a traditional machine. You will not get a better lever than an L1 but you need to try one first. If you state where you are, there maybe an L 1 owner near to you


I am going to pick up the HG 1 from Stephen. Not sure he still has L1


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

If that is London I am sure there will be plenty! Pm Stephen and ask him


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## Xpenno (Nov 12, 2012)

JK009 said:


> Hi
> 
> There is L1 sold here at this moment. Should I buy it?
> 
> ...


There is a boatload of info on this forum on the L1, the search button should reveal a lot. I agree that shots tastes different, whether you find it better or not is subjective. There are loads of people on here who I'm sure would let you try out an L1 if you are seriously considering.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

There's a guy in Camden has an L1 and previously offered people the chance to come round and try it, maybe someone else will be able to remember....


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Xpenno said:


> There is a boatload of info on this forum on the L1, the search button should reveal a lot. I agree that shots tastes different, whether you find it better or not is subjective. There are loads of people on here who I'm sure would let you try out an L1 if you are seriously considering.


Thanks

Walter's post reminded me that I forgot to say " milk base dink is mostly" when I ask for advice

I think it will be difficult to notice the difference in taste. ( or I may be wrong)


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Or you may actually start drinking espresso from it....


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

I drink milk based and would always have a lever over a pump.......


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

You've got a lot of money to spend on a machine you shouldn't really ever need to upgrade from. Please try them out before you make your choice, it would be a shame to get this wrong.


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> You've got a lot of money to spend on a machine you shouldn't really ever need to upgrade from. Please try them out before you make your choice, it would be a shame to get this wrong.


Thanks

that is why the seller said he tried L1 for about a month and finally stated Londinium L1 is not for him


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you buy that L1 and don't like it you shouldn't lose much but it would save hassle to try a lever shot first of all


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

Classic to an L1 would be an amazing upgrade. Are you any where near Rave? They would be able to show you shots from both a lever and a pump driven machine so you can sample the difference and see which you think is best. In the 2k range there are so many beautiful and amazing machines to choose from, and you do need to get it right. It will certainly be frustrating if you fall in love with a lever after trying one out and the L1 is sold already but it is better to take your time and wait than to rush into something that will cause you a lot of hassle.

On the other hand if you are relatively near the seller and could pick up you would probably lose very little, if anything, on a re-sale. So you could consider buying it just to try it out, but it would be a bad idea if its needs shipping, the less time a machine spends in transit the better.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

JK,

you should buy it. I tried to buy it immediately but Eric can not sell it under a company for VAT.

Eric moved from a GS/3 (5K+), one of the best pump machines, to the L1 so he is very experienced and in a position to judge based on very small details that most of us can not even notice.

All of the people that have L1s here and in all other forums are extremely happy. If you consider that it can rival the best exotic pump machines, it is very easy to service by the owner and will probably last easily 10-15 years based on a very simple design, very good support, and the price is relatively very reasonable, then it is a no brainer (in my opinion from everything I have read).


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Jk I would strongly urge you to buy this. It's the last machine you will ever buy. You will however need a genuine quality grinder to go with it and you are about to get that by the sound of it

I can't speak for why Eric feels it's not for him but I'm sure he'd tell you if you ask. Everyone has their preferences but this is the first instance I'm aware of someone reaching that conclusion, although I must be clear I say that with no judgement attached whatsoever

Let's put it this way, a gaggia classic to an L1 is like going from prosecco to bollinger champagne or Smirnoff vodka to grey goose vodka. Both nice, both drinkable but both also totally different. And yes you would still taste the difference in Buck's Fizz or a Bloody Mary

If you have the money, it's a no brainer IMO. I had your machine. I've then had a bigger vibe pump machine in a Fracino cherub and the improvement was immediately apparent. I went from that to commercial single group rotary machines and again, there was improvement.

The L1 however, as a non pump dependant (for brewing) lever knocks spots off anything I have ever tried yet it's mechanically very simple with far less to go wrong with it.

It's far easier to use than you might imagine too.

Just go for it. Even if you don't get on with it (which you will) you can sell it on and easily get your money back.

Also you can rest assured with Eric it will have been well looked after and cared for so you can buy with confidence

I an in North London and you are welcome to try mine out. Bring your favourite beans ad test guide and we will put some through the L1 and I promise you will see what we all mean


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

I would love to get hands on with a machine like that even if actual ownership is a pipe dream. JK if you could afford one of these you'd be mad not to try one before you buy. They are by all accounts one of the best single group lever machines you can get.


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## DavidBondy (Aug 17, 2010)

CamV6 said:


> Jk I would strongly urge you to buy this. It's the last machine you will ever buy.


However ... for all that Cameron says, they are not for everyone! It just didn't suit the style of coffee which I want to drink and it didn't suit Eric either! You must try before you buy! It was (for me) a very costly mistake to try it with other people's coffee and not my own before I bought it! I am now very, very happily settled with my (ex-Eric) GS/3, I can make the sort of coffee that I want to drink and my consumption has gone up by about 30% just because I enjoy it so much!

Act in haste and repent at leisure as they say! You wouldn't buy a car without a test drive would you? Take Cam up on his offer and visit him with some coffee that you know and like then you'll be making an informed decision and not (perhaps) reacting to what you've read here and how much everyone raves about the L1.

David


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> There's a guy in Camden has an L1 and previously offered people the chance to come round and try it, maybe someone else will be able to remember....


I think that is RoloD, but he seems to have been quiet recently.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

JK009 said:


> I am going to pick up the HG 1 from Stephen. Not sure he still has L1


Still got Julio, and of course you can have a go.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

Sorted. Lets us know what you think about the L1 please Julio!


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

An L1 needs to be paired with a good grinder. In my opinion a Mazzer is not good enough.


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## Blackstone (Aug 5, 2012)

NickR said:


> An L1 needs to be paired with a good grinder. In my opinion a Mazzer is not good enough.


He has just bought a hg1 I believe


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

NickR said:


> An L1 needs to be paired with a good grinder. In my opinion a Mazzer is not good enough.


Any Mazzer?

13 grinders


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

My Mazzer major is doing a sterling job so not sure is agree with that statement


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

CamV6 said:


> My Mazzer major is doing a sterling job so not sure is agree with that statement


What are you comparing it too?


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

My taste buds

DAW


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

NickR said:


> An L1 needs to be paired with a good grinder. In my opinion a Mazzer is not good enough.


Mazzer has the major, kony and robur which are exceptional grinders. Especially the robur is considered the benchmark grinder.


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Should have specified. E


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

What is a mazzer e? Presumably you mean one of the on demand variants? Which one, mini, major, robur etc?


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

The 'E' is for electronic, which refers to the electronic dosing. I thought it was just the Mini that had this, but I'm by no means sure.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

They all come with e variants.


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## Gangstarrrrr (Mar 4, 2013)

One could argue that the mini e is an inadequate match to an L1 but a royal, major, kony or robur e are not, hence the ambiguity.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Gangstarrrrr said:


> One could argue that the mini e is an inadequate match to an L1 but a royal, major, kony or robur e are not, hence the ambiguity.


Exactly, Mini and Super Jolly maybe an inadequate match but the other 4 are exceptional grinders.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

All mazzers come in an e variant, my personal favourite is the kony, more compact than a robur and up there in the quality stakes, think we only have one kony owner on here


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

Mine is a Mazzer mini E which almost from the moment I got it , I realised it was shit. Massive grind retention. Smashes beans to irregular dust rather than grinding.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

NickR said:


> Mine is a Mazzer mini E which almost from the moment I got it , I realised it was shit. Massive grind retention. Smashes beans to irregular dust rather than grinding.


Have you tried the other grinders in the range?


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

NickR said:


> Mine is a Mazzer mini E which almost from the moment I got it , I realised it was shit. Massive grind retention. Smashes beans to irregular dust rather than grinding.


That's a bit like saying 'I bought a BMW C1 and it was shit so all BMWs must be shit'


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> That's a bit like saying 'I bought a BMW C1 and it was shit so all BMWs must be shit'


Hey jeesby - you're getting into syllogisms


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

The mini e has never been a highly regarded grinder on here.


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## Orangertange (Jul 4, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> All mazzers come in an e variant, my personal favourite is the kony, more compact than a robur and up there in the quality stakes, think we only have one kony owner on here


 ha just seen a kony going on gumtree Australia, don't tempt me


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Nick have you tried any other grinders with the l1? It is a very common mistake of folk to expect a £2000 grinder to be at its best with a £500 grinder (when new). You should be looking at a bare minimum to the major in the mazzer range, or other big burr grinders


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Hey jeesby - you're getting into syllogisms


Last time you mentioned syllogisms I had to look it up, and just had to again there.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

...........


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

jeebsy said:


> Last time you mentioned syllogisms I had to look it up, and just had to again there.


I have deduced you won't be the only person looking it up .


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

Actually, wasn't quite a syllogism which is a deduction based on two interconnected statements.

Example;

Socrates was a Greek

All Greeks are mortal

Socrates is mortal


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

The Systemic Kid said:


> Actually, wasn't quite a syllogism which is a deduction based on two interconnected statements.
> 
> Example;
> 
> ...


The pedants of the world keep me grounded , and often prick my balloon of wisdom.


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

sjenner said:


> I think that is RoloD, but he seems to have been quiet recently.


Hello? Did somebody say something?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Ah he is alive......


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

coffeechap said:


> Ah he is alive......


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

coffeechap said:


> Ah he is alive......


Just dozed off for a second - anything happen while I was gone?


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

Little bit of this, little bit of that, much joviality and a little bit of debate!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

Well, to be honest, now I've settled down with my Londinium 1, I don't need this dating site anymore&#8230; I'm even quite happy with my Mazzer Mini E, even though it's got itself a bad rep here.

So to the guy who started this thread - yes, the Londinium is a joy to use and the coffee tastes great. If you passing through Camden Town, call in.


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

RoloD said:


> Well
> 
> So to the guy who started this thread - yes, the Londinium is a joy to use and the coffee tastes great. If you passing through Camden Town, call in.


It seems the L1 is not for me at this time

Firstly, I can see Stephen's water filter system is professional complicatedly. There are 2 big tanks. 3 big filters + 1 small filter. There is also a small digital electrical control box.

Secondly, with 18g and pull a shot , then finishing . It seems there is a lot of coffee in the cup. I could confirm that it was more than 40g. I tried it and found out that it was quite sour for me

At this time ( to my best knowledge ) I don't think Londinium L1 is the one for me


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

If you want " less" coffee pull the cup (or stop the pump )

If you wana change the taste grind finer etc

Water filtration is because the machine is plumbed in London , not became it's a l1 ( you can buy these tank fed as you can pump machines ) .

This is meant to be friendly advice not rude or patronising ( as things can be misconstrued in txt rather than in person ) but It might be worth booking a barista course somewhere or getting some one on one training before you choose any new machine ( pump or lever ) to be able to understand some of the concepts above , and then you can make a better informed choice of what machine is for you ( pump or lever , both will make great coffee ) .

Plus it would be fun


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

Exactly what Martin posted above. I do not think the 2 points you mentioned are directly relevant to the L1 and should not affect your decision.


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## coffeechap (Apr 5, 2012)

If the shots were sour then that was about shot prep, beans, grind and certainly not the L1 perhaps ask those at the grinder event if they had sour shots from either l1 there.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

JK009 said:


> It seems the L1 is not for me at this time
> 
> Firstly, I can see Stephen's water filter system is professional complicatedly. There are 2 big tanks. 3 big filters + 1 small filter. There is also a small digital electrical control box.
> 
> ...


I think the issues you mention don't apply with the machine for sale on the forum and water filtration options can be via a simple single cartridge, disposable filter system, or simply using it tanked and buying bottled water. Lever shots are not inferior to pumped machine shots just different. Some pumped machines are good some are not so good..Shot quality is not going to be an Issue...the Bosco group has been used on many levers without incident. So all of the things you are worrying about are not hugely relevant, it's all about technique....your technique.

The things worth thinking about...I won't say only things, but the major things.

1. Can you site it properly, is it the right size, will the lever be easy to operate, are there any height restrictions etc...

2. Do you like the look of it

3. Are you prepared for slightly more group maintenance in terms of lubrication, in exchange for mechanical/electrical simplicity vs a conventional machine (swings and roundabouts)

I guess the main thing is...do you actually want a lever machine or not. Sure with the pumped machines you can move to Dual Boiler systems, this enables you to set shot temperature in a repeatable way and have different temperatures for different beans. In the lever you exchange a nice pressure profile, for the temperature ability of the dual boiler systems. With a lever you can try and profile this and that, but it's not easily repeatable. Overall it's whatever floats your boat, you will get decent shots from most high end gear of similar cost. With the machine on the forum, you get a known machine used for 1 month and presumably the remainder of the warranty period.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

from what you explain the issue there is in shot prep. It sounds like its run fast thus giving a sour result.

Plus you don't need a nutty professor water filtration system. just decent bottled water will


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Less just say the the machine isn't for JK and perhaps the type of coffee wasn't to his taste .

Perhaps He prefers a different type of roast or extraction .

I'd still advise some form of training to help the OP better understand how to get the best from any potential machine .


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## JK009 (Apr 18, 2014)

Just a quick note to make it clear:

The shot was made by Stephen in his daily grind- tamp-dose set up. I just stood aside to watch. I strongly believe Stephen has good knowledge and experience enough to produce a God shot. However, after trying, it was quite sour to me.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Sourness is often a result of undextraction, we have all done it & you can underextract with any machine. You will undoubtedly experience this at times, whatever machine you buy...you make the coffee, the machine provides hot water at pressure.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

Thinking about it, the L1 is a step too far too soon for you and you aren't ready for it yet. I for one couldn't have gone from my gaggia classic to an L1. I suppose its like trying to go from GCSEs to a Masters in one leap. You need to serve an apprenticeship!

The L1 doesn't produce sour shots at all. It produces sweet perfectly balanced shots. I always used to have sugar before I had an L1, I am quite happy without it now most of the time.


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

CamV6 said:


> The L1 doesn't produce sour shots at all. It produces sweet perfectly balanced shots.......


That's an interesting statement but needs qualifying. Any machine is capable of producing sour shots including the LI. The biggest challenges are, IMO, issues such as degree of roast; grind consistency; evenness of extraction; choice of portafilter basket even.


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## charris (Feb 17, 2014)

CamV6 said:


> Thinking about it, the L1 is a step too far too soon for you and you aren't ready for it yet. I for one couldn't have gone from my gaggia classic to an L1. I suppose its like trying to go from GCSEs to a Masters in one leap. You need to serve an apprenticeship!


Why though? There are people that went from classic to L1, there are even people that went straight to L1. If you understand the processes and have someone show how how, then why not?


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

CamV6 said:


> Thinking about it, the L1 is a step too far too soon for you and you aren't ready for it yet. I for one couldn't have gone from my gaggia classic to an L1. I suppose its like trying to go from GCSEs to a Masters in one leap. You need to serve an apprenticeship!
> 
> The L1 doesn't produce sour shots at all. It produces sweet perfectly balanced shots. I always used to have sugar before I had an L1, I am quite happy without it now most of the time.


Cam, I went from a MyPressi to the L1.

The shot was under extracted and was coupled with a nice little spritz, see MWJB's comment above.









Dave, Don't let Reiss hear you calling it a "B*s*o" group!


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## Thecatlinux (Mar 10, 2014)

I would have thought using a coffee that you know and like would probably give you a better indication of what the L1 is going to do for you . You would have a reference of a coffee taste you know, trying someone else's taste in coffee and type of roast may not be the best way to evaluate a machine.

but hey ho if the l1 is not for you there is a rocket EVO in the for sale section at half the price, and from personal experience the difference between that and the classic will be huge !


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

You have a good point.

I meant it isn't a machine that is know to inherently cause sourness in the shots and hasn't got that sort of flawed character.

DAW


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

sjenner said:


> Dave, Don't let Reiss hear you calling it a "B*s*o" group!


Does it not use the Bosco group then, I was under the impression it did?


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## The Systemic Kid (Nov 23, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Does it not use the Bosco group then, I was under the impression it did?


Uses the same generic group Bosco use for their lever machines - Bosco don't make them.


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## Dylan (Dec 5, 2011)

We have probably all experienced sour shots, even from great coffee shops with highly skilled baristas.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

DavecUK said:


> Does it not use the Bosco group then, I was under the impression it did?


The group is reputedly made by CMA, although I have neither asked, nor heard Reiss confirm this.

There is a long thread on the Londinium forum about the name of that group, there was "heat" involved.

Anyway, it has been made for a very long time (with little mods), is currently in use by Quickmill, Kees Van der Westen (and Bosco) and I reckon that by now most of the machines in regular use around the world that have this group, are probably Londiniums'.

You might be more accurate to call it the "Londinium" group....


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

sjenner said:


> The shot was under extracted and was coupled with a nice little spritz, see MWJB's comment above.


You could have made him another!


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## RoloD (Oct 13, 2010)

CamV6 said:


> Thinking about it, the L1 is a step too far too soon for you and you aren't ready for it yet. I for one couldn't have gone from my gaggia classic to an L1. I suppose its like trying to go from GCSEs to a Masters in one leap. You need to serve an apprenticeship!


Personally, I think it is much EASIER to pull great shots from an LI. It is machines like the Gaggia Classic or the Pavoni that need great skill to produce consistency/

The Londinium is forgiving!


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## NickR (Jul 1, 2011)

jeebsy said:


> That's a bit like saying 'I bought a BMW C1 and it was shit so all BMWs must be shit'


I don't see that saying that a specified model; the Mazzer e is crap. Implies that their whole range is crap.


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

THe Mazzer E isn't a model


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## oop north (Jun 23, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> Thinking about it, the L1 is a step too far too soon for you and you aren't ready for it yet. I for one couldn't have gone from my gaggia classic to an L1. I suppose its like trying to go from GCSEs to a Masters in one leap. You need to serve an apprenticeship


My LI is the only espresso machine I ever owned. I served no apprenticeship. Previously I used aeropress. I am happy with my LI. Less so with my roasting abilities!


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## SimonB (Sep 12, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> I for one couldn't have gone from my gaggia classic to an L1.


Speaking from experience I wish I had but it would have been a disaster as I'd have been pulling bad shots and then wondering what's going wrong when I've gone sideways from a £200 machine to a £2000 machine.

The L1 is forgiving but like every machine it has its own little quirks to get accustomed to, it's well worth fighting for though.


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

No I meant That for some, like me, you need to build up an understanding and appreciation for coffee and the process of making espresso before you are ready to appreciate what an L1 is, how it works, why it works, and what it does. I totally agree it is a very easy machine and quite forgiving


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## jeebsy (May 5, 2013)

If you get an L1 for your first machine you might be a bit 'spoiled' by the quality of it (ie not having to learn temp surfing amongst all the other stuff) but no reason why you shouldn't if you can afford it.


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## sjenner (Nov 8, 2012)

jeebsy said:


> If you get an L1 for your first machine you might be a bit 'spoiled' by the quality of it (ie not having to learn temp surfing amongst all the other stuff) but no reason why you shouldn't if you can afford it.


When I set out to learn about coffee, I used a stovetop, and then an electric stovetop, a friend told me about the MyPressi device, which I liked... I didn't like the craftsmanship involved in its production much though, and it was also a real faff to use.

So decided to buy an espresso machine, initially it was going to be a La Spaziale and briefly a Strega... I asked advice on HB and I had two replies from someone called "ronsil"... (No idea who that is?) and someone from Australia (chopinhauer)... Both talked about a "new" machine, so I Skyped Reiss on a Sunday morning and the conversation lasted for two hours, after which my order for the L1 was in, three months later it was delivered.

My intention at that point was to buy a "keeper", and that was also the intention for the HG One, which I had also ordered shortly after.

I have sold the HG One for my own physical reasons, I am having trouble with my right shoulder which I injured about thirty years ago and it has come back to bite me, otherwise it would not have been sold.

I still feel the same about the L1... I am keeping it!

I am always intrigued by all the little operations that my friend carries out on his Silvia, he makes great coffee, but it all looks very confusing...

I suppose what I am really saying, is that everyone gets to know their own machine and doesn't really miss the quirks that they have never needed to understand.


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## SimonB (Sep 12, 2013)

CamV6 said:


> No I meant That for some, like me, you need to build up an understanding and appreciation for coffee and the process of making espresso before you are ready to appreciate what an L1 is, how it works, why it works, and what it does. I totally agree it is a very easy machine and quite forgiving


I was agreeing with you, it's not an ideal beginner machine.

Even so I think the highest compliment I can pay the L1 is every machine I've bought previously left me looking towards something better but after getting the L1 I've not had the slightest urge to look elsewhere.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Entry level machines are harder to get consistent shots from due to lack of temp stability in general

People struggle in general with first machines of any type while get they perfect the tamp , dose , grind , extraction, taste and alter skills and often because they have an unsuitable or no grinder at all

There is no reason why a spring lever is any harder to pick up than a pump machine for a first timer , if they are starting as a . " blank sheet "

If fact the soft pre infusion ( lever or e61 ) could be argued to be more forgiving of distribution than a straight 9 bar pump machine

Any machine ( pump or lever ) that's temp stable is going to be a little more forgiving than a single boiler unit and therefore will allow it's user to understand if the imbalance in their shot is due to dose or grind ( or opposed to temp from temp surfing ) .

That's not to say you can't make good coffee with sb machines , it's just harder to do it all the time .

I not sure I learned a huge amount from the silvia than I could of form getting a better machine to start , other than it made me release very quickly what a better machine would let me do .....( pump or lever ) ......

In general I understand why people don't spend huge amounts of money on machine for a hobby of making a brown drink . I/ we are nuts.......

I also don't buy the " rite of passage " of having to own entry level machine to earn your spurs ....

With any choice though , some money spent on some decent training makes coffee a whole lot easier


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## CamV6 (Feb 7, 2012)

SimonB said:


> I was agreeing with you, it's not an ideal beginner machine.
> 
> Even so I think the highest compliment I can pay the L1 is every machine I've bought previously left me looking towards something better but after getting the L1 I've not had the slightest urge to look elsewhere.


Agreed. The L1 is a machine for life IMO. I cant ever imagine changing from it willingly


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