# ECM Mechanika Boiler Temp



## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Dear all, what boiler pressures are you running?

I've always thought my machine runs hot, and makes noticeably hotter drinks than my old classic.

I adjusted my pressure stat down and the boiler now sits at 1.0bar, rising to about 1.1bar during heating.

I find this is okay but am still curious what others are doing. My shots still seem hot. Has anyone measured the temp of their shots?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Are you performing a suitable cooling flush?

Ps: I think 1.0 bar is fine. However some people say 1.1 or 1.2 bar would be better. How's the milk steaming? How long is your recovery time? Does it suit your routine?

The thing about HX machines is that your need to understand how they operate and when to pull a shot after a cooling flush. Eventually it becomes second nature, they say.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

The cooling flush is fine. I get a couple of seconds boiling, a couple more and then it's good to go. My shot to shot time is about 5mins minimum, and that works.

Steaming is okay, I generally get a latte done in 50 seconds, probably nearer 45s, as that includes starting the shot first. I'd say it was better when the boiler pressure was higher though. Just easier.

The reason for querying is that some shots seem bitter with darker tones coming through. Literally darker in the cup. Sometimes I'll pull a shot before the machine is quite up to temp, and the flavour notes come through better.


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## dimoutsa (May 26, 2017)

My one runs slightly higher as @MediumRoastSteam suggests at 1.1 as it came setup by Bella Barista. Just using a cooling flush for the first shot I pull seems to be fine and I don't think I'm getting any darker/bitter tones coming through (as far as I can tell at least). For exact temperature readings maybe @kennyboy993 can help? From what I've seen in his photos he's had the Mechanika set with a temperature probe.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Yes I've been fascinated and frustrated with mechanika brew temp for quite a while now.

I would say Rich that to really get to know your machine, as with any e61 hx, you need a brew head thermometer - as depending on all sorts of things the brew temp can be anything between 88 and 98 degrees.

I run my pressure topping out at 1.35 which is quite high though I do that purposely to give me more options when flushing. Eg for a light roast I'll flush shorter. When I ran a lower pressure even a really short flush would mean a brew temp of around 93 which for some might be ok but I just wanted the option to brew at 95-96 when I chose to.

ECM hx machines do run cool because of the way they put plastic tubes inside the heat exchanger - they don't run thermosyphon restrictors.

This is great for small flushes but a PITA if you want to make more then 2 drinks consecutively.

I really don't see how people can run them at low pressures - then again mine is plumbed in so the water coming in is always cool, perhaps behaving differently to tanked machines


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Interesting! I have thought about a group thermometer. I might keep an eye out for a second hand one.

The machine used to be up at 1.2-1.3bar, but it would need a long cooling flush before it stopped spitting. Maybe 4-5secs, which seemed long to me? Bella Barista advised me to get to about 1.1, and I've since adjusted a bit lower to test things. I might go back higher and see.

I'm not sure if I'm confused about the bitter notes. The extraction with the Niche is very different. I get much more contrast in the shot than I did before, but it looks amazing, dark reddish brown with mottling and stripes... the first few sips are almost at the extreme end of flavour, which might be causing the confusion. It tastes more even as you go on.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Sounds all good to me Rich - I'm finding the niche the perfect partner with the mechanika.

Despite all my obsessions detailed above - the mechanika will deliver great temp stability at 1.1 bar as well as 1.35...... the real difference would be recovery time and whether u wanted that last bit of control over temperature.

Just flush to stop flash boiling and go and ensure at least 4 mins between shots.

Oh and never use the hot water tap before brewing - kills group head temp on an e61 hx


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## Syenitic (Dec 1, 2013)

richwade80 said:


> Interesting! I have thought about a group thermometer. I might keep an eye out for a second hand one.
> 
> .....


 @richwade80, you could do worse than the coffee-sensor introduced by Glenn here : https://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?46184-New-Sponsor-Coffee-Sensor

I bought one a month or so ago, for less than the price I have seen the alternatives go secondhand for. Was a bit of an eye opener for me.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

richwade80 said:


> Dear all, what boiler pressures are you running?
> 
> I've always thought my machine runs hot, and makes noticeably hotter drinks than my old classic.
> 
> ...


Have you considered the possibility (in fact probability) that your classic was under temperature. 1.0 Bar is very low for an HX machine, if you thyink your shot is not hot enough, either you are not flushing properly, or your estimation of temperature is wrong. I would have thought around 1.2 to 1.35 bar would be a good base setting for that machine.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Have you considered the possibility (in fact probability) that your classic was under temperature. 1.0 Bar is very low for an HX machine, if you thyink your shot is not hot enough, either you are not flushing properly, or your estimation of temperature is wrong. I would have thought around 1.2 to 1.35 bar would be a good base setting for that machine.


Thanks Dave. My classic was definitely producing cooler drinks - but! I do recall running water out of the classic to heat cups... I was probably inadvertently cooling the whole process. Back then I would not have been that interested in temperatures.

I will tweak the pressure back up to observe how that works. I would have thought that so long as the cooling flush stops consistently after flash boiling, there would not be any difference? (Aside from steaming performance perhaps?)

Thanks


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Make sure you don't over flush as well!


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## StuartS (Jan 2, 2015)

If anyone is interested in splitting an order for 2 x Coffee Sensors, let me know. 2 x sensors is €100 and qualifies for free postage to the UK. I can post the second sensor on (in the UK) at cost.

My ECM Technika Profi pressure cycles around 1.4 bar (max just below 1.5 bar) - but I'll double check these values. I normally use the machine after around 40 mins warm-up and flush till the flash boiling stops, normally a 3-4 secs. I have no idea what brew temperature this gives me. I make two drinks in the evening, no more than 2 mins between shots (time to clean the PF, grind and tamp) - the second shot always seams to be a cleaner pour.

A temp sensor would help me understand whats going on...

Thanks

Stuart


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## aoxomoxoa (May 2, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Oh and never use the hot water tap before brewing - kills group head temp on an e61 hx


That's interesting. I usually heat my cup with a quick blast from the hot tap on my ECM Barista (which I assume would have similar characteristics to the Mechanika). I'll try using the kettle instead and check whether theere's any discernible difference.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

aoxomoxoa said:


> That's interesting. I usually heat my cup with a quick blast from the hot tap on my ECM Barista (which I assume would have similar characteristics to the Mechanika). I'll try using the kettle instead and check whether theere's any discernible difference.


A quick blast will be ok - but filling a mug would be a problem. Did u do a test?


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## aoxomoxoa (May 2, 2017)

Yes, I've tried a few shots using the kettle to warm the cup, and I couldn't taste any difference (I don't have a thermometer to measure the brew water temp though). t is only a short blast though - just a small espresso cup.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

aoxomoxoa said:


> Yes, I've tried a few shots using the kettle to warm the cup, and I couldn't taste any difference (I don't have a thermometer to measure the brew water temp though). t is only a short blast though - just a small espresso cup.


Out of interest, why don't you use the cooling flush to heat your cup?

Surely you have to do that anyway, so may as well use the hot water?


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## aoxomoxoa (May 2, 2017)

richwade80 said:


> Out of interest, why don't you use the cooling flush to heat your cup?
> 
> Surely you have to do that anyway, so may as well use the hot water?


Because the flush tends to have odd bits of old coffee grounds in it.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

aoxomoxoa said:


> Because the flush tends to have odd bits of old coffee grounds in it.


I see. I go for a flush and wipe. This discussion now sounds a bit horrible...


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Just an update on this.

The machine is fine. It's the Barista which is the problem... sort of.

I researched milk temperatures on the forum and figured out I was steaming for too long. The temperature on the thermometer rises quite a lot after steaming has finished.

I needed to 'pull out sooner' so to speak. I now stop at around 120F

The thing that was confusing is that using the same pitcher and thermometer on a Gaggia Classic resulted in a cooler drink. I expect that steaming/heating probably took longer on the classic, (and I used to make larger drinks) so probably less apparent gain in temperature after steaming.


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## Jony (Sep 8, 2017)

I think I am at 60c so you are at 48c that's not hot, I have I have always used finger temp, I'm done in


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

richwade80 said:


> Just an update on this.
> 
> The machine is fine. It's the Barista which is the problem... sort of.
> 
> ...


By all means, keep the thermometer if you want, but also train your hand to know when to stop by temperature. For instance, hold the pitcher and keep your fingers touching the lower side or bottom of the jug. When it feels too hot to touch, close the steam tap. Clean it with a wet cloth, tap tap the jug, swirl a few times and pour.

I find milk thermometers just get on the way. It's a good aid, but in my case I used it a couple of times and find that my own on skin sensors are more practical and more responsive than the mechanical one.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Jony said:


> I think I am at 60c so you are at 48c that's not hot, I have I have always used finger temp, I'm done in
> 
> I stop at 120 and it keeps going on the counter to about 140 to 150! So maybe we aren't so far apart in the end.
> 
> ...


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## espressotechno (Apr 11, 2011)

You get your fingers burnt just once - then you always know when to stop.....!


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

richwade80 said:


> I stop at 120 and it keeps going on the counter to about 140 to 150! So maybe we aren't so far apart in the end.
> 
> I use full fat Waitrose organic tree hugging mega expensive milk. I don't know how much exactly (120ml I guess). Takes probably 40s though with standard two hole wand.
> 
> I imagine using your hand is like having your fingerprints burnt off.


When I view my last post on Tapatalk it doesn't show up. Hopefully this will show it properly. The website is fine.


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## TonyCoffeeNewbie (May 4, 2017)

I used to use the plam if my hand on the bottom of the jug to judge temp..and got good results. I decided to stop as the skin on my palm started peeling!!

Now use a temptag tri sticker...which works well and is less painful.

So be careful...


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Update on this.

I ditched my milk thermometer and now just burn myself to know when to stop. The result is a far nicer cup, which I hold with bandaged hands...

I also got a group thermometer. To my surprise, the group does seem to run hot. It would get to 97 or probably 98 if left long enough.

To cool this down to 94 or so, I've found that you'd have to do something significant - basically make a drink to drop the resting temp by 2 degrees.

The flush and go method is confusing, as it doesn't appear to make much difference, with a short flush at least.

If the group is at 96 before the cooling flush (to the end of flash boiling), the temp spikes by about 2 degrees before dropping, but only back to where it was really. The temp during the shot is also then 2 degrees higher, but does fall by 1 degree during the length of the shot.

If the group is at 92 (my current preferred spot) then you get a shorter flush to the end of flash boiling. The performance is similar though. The temp during the shot would be 94 to 93.

So it seems that machine does run hot to me. This would be okay if plumbed in, but is a pain if on your on bottles.

It's okay if you catch the machine at the right temp while it's heating up.

I've copied the graphs from the other thread here in case it's useful.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Hey Rich - nice to see you getting scientific with brew temp on your HX ;-)

My experience was that the group should run hotter at idle than brew as yours is - up to 98 or more after a long idle.

This was to warm the cooler brew water after a flush. After a long idle I would need a slightly longer flush especially for darker roasts

For me it was only from 3rd shot onwards that group head temp at idle was less than desired brew temp at which point I moved to no flush and let the heat of the super heated water in the HX actually warm the group head during the shot - so the thermal effect was reversed.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> Hey Rich - nice to see you getting scientific with brew temp on your HX ;-)
> 
> My experience was that the group should run hotter at idle than brew as yours is - up to 98 or more after a long idle.
> 
> ...


Thanks Kenny

I will consider deciphering what you just wrote over a few pints and a bottle of wine.

There's always something to learn. It's why I like this hobby more than most others.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Ha yeah sorry buddy - just reread it and it's one of those that definitely makes sense...... to the writer!


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## DayZer0 (Feb 23, 2019)

I had a couple of questions about the charts above.

1)

If the flush max and shot max are around the same (or within 1 deg C) then the flush appears to make little difference. why would you bother ?

I suppose i would've expected the flush part to run 100+ and the the subsequent shot to run cooler.

2)

How important is the Shot max/min vs the average temp over the extraction? Does a high temp for the first few seconds matter if the temperature drops off for the rest of the shot.

Thank you!


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## Steve-16 (Dec 15, 2016)

I've been playing with boiler pressure and group-head temps on my ECM Technika Profi IV for a little while now, having bought the Coffee Sensor Pro, which is pretty much the same as "Eric's Thermometer".

On the pressure, I dropped mine to peak at 1.1-bar, but found it degraded steam for milk, so bumped it up to max at about 1.25 - 1.3.

Despite reading thousands of words on the topic, I am still confused as to what the group head reading is telling me. If you read Eric's instructions, on a flush-n-go machine like mine, he says the temperature will read a couple of degrees lower than the temp of the water presented to the puck. In my mind, that means if it settles down at 94C, the water hitting the puck will be 96C.

However, I've read other comments from people who insist the temps register two degrees higher than the water hitting the puck... and ones using a different machine who say the two converge after 15-seconds, so if it reads 94C 15 seconds in, that is the temp of the water hitting the puck.

In partial answer to



DayZer0 said:


> 1)
> 
> If the flush max and shot max are around the same (or within 1 deg C) then the flush appears to make little difference. why would you bother ?
> 
> ...


 1. The thing to remember is that when sitting idle, the thermometer is measuring the group head temp, but after water has been flowing for a few seconds, it is measuring water temp.

The flush and pulling the shot use different water volumes and so the temp change is very different... therefore will produce very different curves. A 30-second flush will drop temps significantly, whereas a 30-second shot will not. Without the flush, the water temps would stay much higher in pulling the shot, because back pressure restricts water flow. The flush has also drawn cooler water into the HX. The 4+Kgs of brass in the group head also flattens things out.

2. This is where there is debate as outlined above. The water initially hitting the puck will be instantly cooled, because the puck will be at a much lower temp. After 15 seconds my temp stabilises and it makes sense to me that the puck has come up to temp and the group head has stabilised the water temp.... hence I suspect the temp of the water hitting the puck has converged with the group head measurement.

Now who has both a Scace and a Coffee Sensor Pro to give me data?


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## catpuccino (Jan 5, 2019)

Steve-16 said:


> Despite reading thousands of words on the topic, I am still confused as to what the group head reading is telling me. If you read Eric's instructions, on a flush-n-go machine like mine, he says the temperature will read a couple of degrees lower than the temp of the water presented to the puck. In my mind, that means if it settles down at 94C, the water hitting the puck will be 96C.


 I use Eric's thermometer on the Mechanika Profi IV. My machine (at around 1.25) requires very little flushing. So much so that I often over-flush, and have the painful wait for it to recover...it's a very stable machine, but this stability seems to work against it if I cool it down too much as it wants to stay at that temperature.

Anyway, there seems to be no real consensus. Probably in part down to the thermometers being quite poor in quality. For my machine, I aim for the thermometer to read 96-96.5c during the shot. That means there'll be a high of 97~ at the start, very quickly settling to a stable ~96. I take this to mean that my machine with my thermometer have a ~3c offset, since I'd expect 93c to be where most beans are happiest.


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## richwade80 (Aug 25, 2017)

Just to add, if your steam power drops off at lower pressures you can always get the other steam wand tips. There's plenty of pressure there even at 1.0bar if you want.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Border_all (Dec 19, 2019)

richwade80 said:


> I see. I go for a flush and wipe. This discussion now sounds a bit horrible...


 Got to say love your sense of humour in this thread 😂


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## Mike282 (Apr 16, 2021)

Are people flushing with the potrafilter in or out of group head? 
Regards Mike


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Mike282 said:


> Are people flushing with the potrafilter in or out of group head?
> Regards Mike


 Doesn't matter. Whatever works for you.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

@Mike282 I usually do it with the of out as I'm used to it that way. There's also less drying of th PF to do.

But as @MediumRoastSteam says, it doesn't matter.


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