# Advice for channelling around basket edges



## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

I'm seeking advice for pretty bad channelling I'm getting around the edges of my 18g VST basket.

I'm running with e61 hx machine with mignon grinder. I'm dosing 18 or 19g and the problem is pretty much the same on both doses. I have motta 58.4mm tamper.

I've tried nutation, no real improvement.

I dose in to pf with norvin funnel and then mix and break up clumps with mini whisk or skewer. I then tap the naked pf quite firm on the work top 3 or 4 times and that's it - no other distribution before tamping. I do get the sense there's maybe a small gap between grinds and side of basket before tamping though assume that tamping would sort that.

Funnily enough I have so far only had this problem with caf beans as i mostly drink decaf. Not sure if it's simply because I need more experience with caf beans as I find they need a less fine grind, seem to fill pf up more etc. This could easily be a red herring though and any general channelling on the edges advice much appreciated.

Observing the pull with naked pf I see reasonable start pulling in to mouse tail with striping though then breaks down around 16 seconds in to maybe 2 tails and watery extract some parts of the basket with striping still on others - nasty :-(

I'm pulling 1:2 ratio in around 30 seconds

Kenny


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Oh yeah and it tastes watery and dull, maybe a little sour too


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

So, I do something similar, but with a different grinder. However, I've tried the same with a Mignon and it is possible, back in the day when I used to have one. I've been using a VST basket for over 3 years now.

Don't bother with the tapping to settle the grinds. Just try to level tamp, clear the coffee from the inner edge of the basket and then tamp properly.

Practice, observe, practice (loop).


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

This is as good a reason as any to upgrade to a 58.55mm tamper which is a really nice snug fit in a VST basket. That 0.15mm makes all the difference imo.

Alternatively, if you're not already using a convex base then perhaps try one of those.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Cheers medium - I'll try not tapping when I get in. For my own learning can you tell me the logic behind this?

Also what do you mean by clearing the coffee around the edges - after the shot?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

58.4 is fine to get tasty coffee . Perfect technique as opposed to chopping and changing tampers and splurging on stuff. You don't need to convex tamper to solve edge channeling either .


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

I feel your pain . . .

If you are getting watery, slightly sour shots I'm wondering about the temp. Did you post somewhere about changing the temp on your machine, or am I dreaming?


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

kennyboy993 said:


> Cheers medium - I'll try not tapping when I get in. For my own learning can you tell me the logic behind this?
> 
> Also what do you mean by clearing the coffee around the edges - after the shot?


Logic: I read once that the best advice is that, the least you "groom" the coffee in the basket, the better the shot will be. Now, WDT, wishing the grinds etc are all workarounds that we do to compensate for deficiencies in the grinder, unfortunately (e.g.: poor distribution). Therefore, those steps are inevitable.

Also, just by trying and comparing: I find that banging the PF on the table gives me worse results than not doing it.

Regarding clearing the coffee around the edges, I find that sometimes when you level tamp first, there is some coffee grinds which get stuck to the inner sides of the basket. I found that, if I clear them before final tamping, there them the tamper won't get stuck in the basket, form a vacuum and spoil the prepared puck.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

MildredM said:


> I feel your pain . . .
> 
> If you are getting watery, slightly sour shots I'm wondering about the temp. Did you post somewhere about changing the temp on your machine, or am I dreaming?


Changing temp won't help the watery aspect ... grind finer to increase sweetness. Reduce ratio to increase strength .


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## Deansie26 (Jan 16, 2017)

I use pre-ground decaf for my wife Kenny and there is nothing I can do to stop it running like water, I assumed it was just a issue as I can't adjust the grind. Is this a feature of decaf in general? Mrboots?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Deansie26 said:


> I use pre-ground decaf for my wife Kenny and there is nothing I can do to stop it running like water, I assumed it was just a issue as I can't adjust the grind. Is this a feature of decaf in general? Mrboots?


Yeah it's decaf and pre ground .. recipe for disaster . All you could do is updose a bit to be honest . That probably won't help. Pre ground even if ground vaguely to the right grind will loose its freshness very quickly, in a matter of hours. Stale coffee = gushers


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> 58.4 is fine to get tasty coffee . Perfect technique as opposed to chopping and changing tampers and splurging on stuff. You don't need to convex tamper to solve edge channeling either .


Whats your advice then boots for edge channeling?


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

DoubleShot said:


> This is as good a reason as any to upgrade to a 58.55mm tamper which is a really nice snug fit in a VST basket. That 0.15mm makes all the difference imo.
> 
> Alternatively, if you're not already using a convex base then perhaps try one of those.


Cheers doubleshot, those oversized ones you recommended on the other thread look great but so so expensive :-(


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> I feel your pain . . .
> 
> If you are getting watery, slightly sour shots I'm wondering about the temp. Did you post somewhere about changing the temp on your machine, or am I dreaming?


thanks Mildred you did remember correctly  has helped in other ways though not with this unfortunately


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Logic: I read once that the best advice is that, the least you "groom" the coffee in the basket, the better the shot will be. Now, WDT, wishing the grinds etc are all workarounds that we do to compensate for deficiencies in the grinder, unfortunately (e.g.: poor distribution). Therefore, those steps are inevitable.
> 
> Also, just by trying and comparing: I find that banging the PF on the table gives me worse results than not doing it.
> 
> Regarding clearing the coffee around the edges, I find that sometimes when you level tamp first, there is some coffee grinds which get stuck to the inner sides of the basket. I found that, if I clear them before final tamping, there them the tamper won't get stuck in the basket, form a vacuum and spoil the prepared puck.


cheers, I'll give it a try.

Deansie - it's actually decaf that I don't have a problem with ironically


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Chris explains it well in these 3 easy steps...


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## MildredM (Feb 13, 2017)

kennyboy993 said:


> thanks Mildred you did remember correctly  has helped in other ways though not with this unfortunately


No, and as Mr Boots2u pointed out, it wouldn't. I was just thinking about the slightly sour aspect, I suppose . . .

Is there any way you could do a short vid of the shot from pulling the handle. It could be helpful to see how it looks.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

MildredM said:


> No, and as Mr Boots2u pointed out, it wouldn't. I was just thinking about the slightly sour aspect, I suppose . . .
> 
> Is there any way you could do a short vid of the shot from pulling the handle. It could be helpful to see how it looks.


Yeah I will, good idea - soon as the ankle biters are out of the house


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Great double shot, thanks - really good. Will have a look when kids in bed


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## martinierius (Sep 28, 2014)

With my 58.4mm tamper I sometimes suck the puck out when removing the tamper too quickly. Result: channeling around the puck.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

martinierius said:


> With my 58.4mm tamper I sometimes suck the puck out when removing the tamper too quickly. Result: channeling around the puck.


So do I sometimes - do it very slowly when I remember now.

Presumably this would be even easier with a wider diameter tamper


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

I've never once sucked the puck up when removing my 58.55mm tamper but then I've always removed it slowly.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Funny how everyone has a different solution! For me, I do tap to distribute and get the coffee as flat as poss before tamping level. I have a 58.35 flat MBK and a 58.4 convex Torr Goldfinger. I don't get edge channeling with either - the Torr feels nicer in the hand but I prefer the positive action/feel of a flat (maybe I should get a flat GF base?). I usually do that 'twist to polish' thing as I'm removing the tamper from the basket - I have no idea what the 'real' reason behind the polishing is supposed to be, but I do it because I think it reduces puck suck, or pucktion (I'm wondering which of these neologisms might catch on!)

I'm not saying all my shots are spot on (if only!) but although I sometimes get a dead spot or a spritzer, they're not usually at the edge. I think if your tamper is "point something" it should be a good enough fit. Don't buy another tamper, just try to ensure the bed is even before tamping, tamp as flat as you can, and twist/spin the tamper as you pull it out to avoid lifting the puck. See if it works for you.


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Good advice, I'm learning that more meticulous prep is necessary.

I've only had decaf bean over the weekend in the grinder and it's been fine as usual - beautiful pours.

I'm wondering if I should try dosing less with the caf beans - I've always had the same problem with them whether it's single origin or an espresso blend as I have at the moment.

There's a reason I'm ok with decaf and not caf isn't there - my workflow is exactly the same..... any thoughts?

Perhaps I should try dosing less with the caf as the grinds seems to pile up higher in the pf and funnel. Anyone dosing under 18g in a vst 18g basket?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

Dosed directly into VST basket, couple of vertical taps then tamped. No WDT. No nutating. No spin/polish. Slowly removed tamper and voilà


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Looks perfect - would love to see how you'd achieve that with a mignon. I'm sure it's doable, I'm not blaming the grinder but I have to stir the clumps first


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## kennyboy993 (Jan 23, 2017)

Is that an 18g dose doubleshot?


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

19g in a 18g VST ridgeless basket.

Been there done that. Breaking up clumps before tamping with my previous/first grinder (Ceado e37 - no clump crusher). But thing of the past since fitting a clump crusher to my Mythos a couple of years back.

Happy days!


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

First signs of espresso in cup around 10 secs, two evenly flowing mouse tails throughout, 38g out in 37 secs. This was first attempt since opening new bag of beans so a little adjustment will be necessary before I'm dialled in.


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## DoubleShot (Apr 23, 2014)

kennyboy993 said:


> Looks perfect - would love to see how you'd achieve that with a mignon. I'm sure it's doable, I'm not blaming the grinder but I have to stir the clumps first


Whilst using a Ceado e37, I used to dose into a small Sainsbury's nibble bowl, break up clumps using a spoon then transfer into filter basket. Would nutate (although it wasn't necessary as was using a very snug fitting 58.55mm tamper) then tamp. Never suffered from channelling then so it's certainly possible irrespective of which grinder you're using.

At some point I'm sure something that you try will just click one day and channelling will be a thing of the past. It can be frustrating until such time though especially when you think you've tried just about everything and nothing seems to be working.


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

VST are ok +/- 1g from nominal. Suppose I get 17.4g or 18.6g from my Ceado, I'm not going to bother topping it up/scooping some out. I just adjust the shot to keep the ratio the same (and when half a gram dose = 1g espresso, getting closer than half a gram 'out' is way closer than my taste buds require. (Not least because only 1-2 of every 10 shots I make get drunk neat, most get a few Oz of milk dumped on top!))

But once you start dosing 16 or 20 in a VST 18g you can have problems with extraction. Especially under dosing.

As for clumps - not everyone agrees with this but here's Matt Perger's take on them: (copied from Barista Hustle)

Stop worrying. Poke one with your finger and it breaks apart instantly. Now think about how hard you're tamping. Now think about 110 pounds per square inch of water pressure. Is it still a clump after all that?


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