# Double Basket Coarseness



## Ret0lein (Dec 12, 2017)

Hey there!

I am pretty new in the Silvia family and I simply cannot find the correct coarseness setting for producing proper espresso









Attached are three photos of the current coffee ground, of which I put 15g into the double basket. When extracting, I let the water flow though the portafilter for 25 seconds.

The water flows too fast, and the outcome is not delicious at all. If I put more coffee into the basket, I cannot get the portafilter into the grouphead anymore...

(I already see a 2-3mm impression of the group head screw, after putting the puck out).

Should I try to put more coffee into the basket and tamp harder? Or is the solution finder grinding? I am a bit stuck on this









Thanks for any help!


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Hi. It's nigh on impossible to judge grind by eye, even with a close up pic with scale/reference.

I would suggest grinding finer.

You need some headroom in the basket, but not too much. Baskets generally have a nominal value, and there's a gram or so either side (eg an 18g VST will be ok with 17-19g). The dose in the basket will make a big difference to flow rate, but needs to be within the basket's 'comfort' range. Overloading a basket to slow down flow is counterproductive as the water needs space to enter, and the coffee needs to be able to expand. Also, once it's overloaded, the effect could be anything from 'a bit slower' to 'choked' and you'd not really have control or repeatability.

You should aim to keep your tamping as consistent as you can to remove this as a variable, it's not ideal to try to use tamping to vary flow as it's too unrepeatable. That's what tweaking grind settings is for.

What coffee is it, and how old since roast?

How much liquid (in grams) are you getting out of your 15g in 25 seconds?

What grinder are you using?


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

As said , photos or descriptions of grind are near pointless, as the grind will be dependent on the dose used and the roast and age of coffee.

16g max for a stock silvia double would be my advice. Make sure your scales are to 0.1g

Then as suggested weight the ouput aim to get 32g out , note time dont stop the shot by it , taste report back .


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## Ret0lein (Dec 12, 2017)

Guys, thanks a lot for your replies! I am of good expectations that this thread leads me to amazing coffee











hotmetal said:


> Hi. It's nigh on impossible to judge grind by eye, even with a close up pic with scale/reference.


I just wanted to try











hotmetal said:


> I would suggest grinding finer.
> 
> You need some headroom in the basket, but not too much. Baskets generally have a nominal value, and there's a gram or so either side (eg an 18g VST will be ok with 17-19g). The dose in the basket will make a big difference to flow rate, but needs to be within the basket's 'comfort' range. Overloading a basket to slow down flow is counterproductive as the water needs space to enter, and the coffee needs to be able to expand. Also, once it's overloaded, the effect could be anything from 'a bit slower' to 'choked' and you'd not really have control or repeatability.
> 
> You should aim to keep your tamping as consistent as you can to remove this as a variable, it's not ideal to try to use tamping to vary flow as it's too unrepeatable. That's what tweaking grind settings is for.


For that reason I am using a calibrated tamper and try to tamp as even as possible.



hotmetal said:


> What coffee is it, and how old since roast?


For the purpose of finding the correct grinding coarseness, I was using an Arabica from the supermarket meant to be put into espresso machines.

There is no indication on the packaging when it was roasted.



hotmetal said:


> How much liquid (in grams) are you getting out of your 15g in 25 seconds?


I will measure this and update the thread as soon as I am home.



hotmetal said:


> What grinder are you using?


A Baratza Sette 270 with an additional shim installed, for finer grinds.



Mrboots2u said:


> As said , photos or descriptions of grind are near pointless, as the grind will be dependent on the dose used and the roast and age of coffee.


I really didn't know that the roasting age of the coffee is that important. It's really a science











Mrboots2u said:


> 16g max for a stock silvia double would be my advice. Make sure your scales are to 0.1g


Yep, scale has 0.1g granularity.



Mrboots2u said:


> Then as suggested weight the ouput aim to get 32g out , note time dont stop the shot by it , taste report back .


Before trying and reporting I already have a stupid question: 32g of liquid, right?


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Yes. 16g of dry coffee, zero the scales with your cup on it and aim for 32g of espresso in your cup. Jot down how long it took, let us know how it tasted, how it looked.

Before tamping, try to ensure the coffee is fairly even in the basket, and avoid any knocks to the portafilter once you've tamped - this can fracture the puck and lead to water finding an easy way through, which results in a fast, sour shot usually. Good luck! 16:32 (1:2) isn't magic, but is a useful starting point to aim for. Once you can get that, you can play around with ratios (shorter for ristretto, longer for lungo, and there's a bit of wiggle room either side for 'normale'). Ultimately it's just about finding out which numbers = a drink that you like, whatever it's called, so you know how to repeat it.


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## Ret0lein (Dec 12, 2017)

Mrboots2u said:


> As said , photos or descriptions of grind are near pointless, as the grind will be dependent on the dose used and the roast and age of coffee.
> 
> 16g max for a stock silvia double would be my advice. Make sure your scales are to 0.1g
> 
> Then as suggested weight the ouput aim to get 32g out , note time dont stop the shot by it , taste report back .





hotmetal said:


> Yes. 16g of dry coffee, zero the scales with your cup on it and aim for 32g of espresso in your cup. Jot down how long it took, let us know how it tasted, how it looked.
> 
> Before tamping, try to ensure the coffee is fairly even in the basket, and avoid any knocks to the portafilter once you've tamped - this can fracture the puck and lead to water finding an easy way through, which results in a fast, sour shot usually. Good luck! 16:32 (1:2) isn't magic, but is a useful starting point to aim for. Once you can get that, you can play around with ratios (shorter for ristretto, longer for lungo, and there's a bit of wiggle room either side for 'normale'). Ultimately it's just about finding out which numbers = a drink that you like, whatever it's called, so you know how to repeat it.


Okay, I am reporting back









So I tried it for about 2 hours and different settings. I had to buy a new package of coffee









I tried it, as you suggested: Evened the coffee before tamping. I somehow had the feeling that the tamper touches the basket, where the angle of the of the bottom part of the basket starts (it's hard to explain...).

Is a 58mm tamper too big? Shouldn't be, right?

So I had the following outcomes (from the top to the bottom, I grinded coarser):

16g | 20g | sour

16g | 25g | still sour

16g | 33.5g | still sour, but better than 25g

16g | 36.5g | still a bit sour (this try was unintended (I rotated the coarseness setting of the grinder in the wrong direction)

I noticed a few things:

1) The sourness got better with the coarseness

2) Even with 36.5g of coffee, the coffee still tastes a bit sour. Thats strange, right?

And one very weird thing:

With the first two coarseness settings I noticed, that the coffee was flowing, then after 5 seconds it started dripping and then it started flowing again (but lighter in color).

Shouldn't it be like...first it drips into the cup, then starts flowing faster and gets lighter in color over time?

I have to say, that all of the coffees looked quite okay, the best looking was #3


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## Ret0lein (Dec 12, 2017)

Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is, that I still use 25 seconds of extraction time, after 1s of pre-infusion this is done by the Auber PID I installed (which also keeps a consistent temperature)


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## hotmetal (Oct 31, 2013)

Cool. Are you comparing with straight espresso that you've had in a good coffee shop? If you don't normally drink straight espresso, it's pretty intense and acidic, because coffee just is. You might find that when people talk about sweet, they're starting from a different frame of reference, and these things are relative.

Regarding the change in flow rate, that *could* be (and I'm not saying it is) indicative of some channeling - a fracture in the puck or water getting between the puck and the basket edge. This would lead to light coloured and sour shots - so you may need to work on your prep. Are you using a naked portafilter or the spouted one? A naked PF will allow you to look at the bottom of the basket and see problem areas.


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Why did you keep grinding coarser? As you pull the shot longer at the same grind, you will extract more & possibly get past sourness. By grinding coarser, you're continuing to under-extract.

16:35g still sour. Not abnormal, but perhaps fixable by going finer.

The stream gets lighter, this is normal, it can get light early on, or later in the shot, colour is more closely linked to degree of roast, so don't read too much into it.

If you want great looking shot, by an oil painting of one  It should taste great first, looking good is secondary (assuming criteria #1 is met). A shot that looks great, meets arbitrary requirements of a great shot (crema, time, a specific ratio), but doesn't taste great, isn't a great shot.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Ret0lein said:


> Oh, one thing I forgot to mention is, that I still use 25 seconds of extraction time, after 1s of pre-infusion this is done by the Auber PID I installed (which also keeps a consistent temperature)






 for getting a good recipe. You'll probably notice that time is the last thing he locks down to hit his target.


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## SimonN (Feb 4, 2016)

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but you say you're using "supermarket beans"? If so, stop right there, that'll probably be half of the problem! Get yourself some freshly roasted coffee from one of the forum sponsors, something you like the sound of, then start again. Honestly, the difference is night and day.


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## Ret0lein (Dec 12, 2017)

Thanks again for all your help, guys!



hotmetal said:


> Cool. Are you comparing with straight espresso that you've had in a good coffee shop? If you don't normally drink straight espresso, it's pretty intense and acidic, because coffee just is. You might find that when people talk about sweet, they're starting from a different frame of reference, and these things are relative.


I just drink Espresso, nothing else, because I react kinda strange to milk products









But it really tasted a bit too acidic (which I probably referred to as sour)...



hotmetal said:


> Regarding the change in flow rate, that *could* be (and I'm not saying it is) indicative of some channeling - a fracture in the puck or water getting between the puck and the basket edge. This would lead to light coloured and sour shots - so you may need to work on your prep. Are you using a naked portafilter or the spouted one? A naked PF will allow you to look at the bottom of the basket and see problem areas.


Until now (a few weeks just) I was using the spouted portafilter with the two exits, that comes with the machine.

However, I will see if a friend can borrow me his bottomless for further trying...



MWJB said:


> Why did you keep grinding coarser? As you pull the shot longer at the same grind, you will extract more & possibly get past sourness. By grinding coarser, you're continuing to under-extract.
> 
> 16:35g still sour. Not abnormal, but perhaps fixable by going finer.


Ohhh, interesting!

I will try that, as soon as I get another coffee delivered (see below).



MWJB said:


> The stream gets lighter, this is normal, it can get light early on, or later in the shot, colour is more closely linked to degree of roast, so don't read too much into it.


It's really a great learning experience for me here











MWJB said:


> If you want great looking shot, by an oil painting of one  It should taste great first, looking good is secondary (assuming criteria #1 is met). A shot that looks great, meets arbitrary requirements of a great shot (crema, time, a specific ratio), but doesn't taste great, isn't a great shot.


Haha, yeah. I prefer drinking it, instead of looking at it.

However, I love having a beautiful crema











ashcroc said:


>


I used to live in Vienna, where I visited a cafe on a daily basis, that had amazing coffee from an Austrian barista.

The last three days I was there again and I brought myself a 100g package of beans.

I used the same setting as for the supermarket coffee and the result was already better!

tl;dr

I will ask them if they send me a freshly roasted package of my favorite coffee and then I will update this thread with my new insights.

Thanks everyone for your answers so far


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## zeezaw (Nov 12, 2017)

Ret0lein said:


> I will ask them if they send me a freshly roasted package of my favorite coffee and then I will update this thread with my new insights.


Good idea. I would get a lot more than 100g this time so that even if you make a few mistakes you'll still be able to keep experimenting without having to start from scratch with a new coffee. Get at least 250g, if not double that (depending on how much coffee you drink).

Does the coffee bag have a roast date on it, so you can know exactly how fresh it is?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Something doesn't make sense here to me. The title mentions a double basket. Different makes probably offer somewhat different capacities but are usually a notional 14g. 16g may be too much. It very probably would be on my E61 machine. Too much coffee in a basket can have some odd results. Perhaps you should start at 14 and only increase if the puck is too wet. The double is for double shots.

Some supermarket beans behave in an odd way. Same strength tends to come out how ever it's ground. I assume that they are processed to do this 'cause they might be brewed by any method and ground with various usually cheap grinders.







I do try them now and again usually because some one else has bought them. One's like this tend to produce a lot of dark flow. Some branches of Lidl offer beans that aren't like this but the current ones in wooden barrels are. Some one I know always uses what he refers to as Tesco Standard as they are always slightly oily. I assume these will be the cheapest they do.

The obvious thing to try here is it's a double basket so get the weight right and run 60ml / gram shots. The flow time will depend on the grind. Finer grinds may well smooth out the taste. Exceeding 60ml may too. Reducing it probably wont. Don't worry too much about what the best flow time finishes up at. It wouldn't surprise me if that was rather long - also on a single basket. Has to be tried as beans behave differently,

The other rather obvious aspect is that if a single is required try the single basket. Notional 7g that may hold 8 or so as the grind gets fine. With this basket the usual numbers quoted for singles should work out but may be too weak or too strong but that depends on the bean.

Using the double for singles ? Bean dependent. I suppose some super hero might use 14g of something like Jampit or a bean I use a lot for a 30ml shot but they would probably wreck there taste buds for months.

John

-


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> only increase if the puck is too wet. The double is for double shots.
> 
> Some supermarket beans behave in an odd way. Same strength tends to come out how ever it's ground. I assume that they are processed to do this 'cause they might be brewed by any method and ground with various usually cheap grinders.
> 
> ...


Puck wetness is just a by-product of what is left behind after the 3 way solenoid has done its thing. Under dosing a basket will have odd effects, just like overdosing. A "double" has no specific fixed weight of dose, just a typical range.

A bean will not produce the same concentration however it is ground, this is not & cannot be true...you might be able to do this to some degree with brewed coffee (hit the same concentration at varying grind sizes), but it's not normal for espresso. Even if you hit a ceiling of concentration, you can always drop it.

A 1:2.1 shot of Jampit destroy someone's taste buds? Seems unlikely?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Puck wetness is just a by-product of what is left behind after the 3 way solenoid has done its thing. Under dosing a basket will have odd effects, just like overdosing. A "double" has no specific fixed weight of dose, just a typical range.
> 
> A bean will not produce the same concentration however it is ground, this is not & cannot be true...you might be able to do this to some degree with brewed coffee (hit the same concentration at varying grind sizes), but it's not normal for espresso. Even if you hit a ceiling of concentration, you can always drop it.
> 
> A 1:2.1 shot of Jampit destroy someone's taste buds? Seems unlikely?


I just state things as I find them. If some one doesn't want to believe me that is fine by me. Our famed Jampit drinker for instance uses little and throws the first 6 secs away. He also tried a roast of the bean I use a lot and didn't use much of that either. I've used Jampit for long blacks. It doesn't need much and in some respects is a bit tricky on taste. I do play pure espresso at times but as I see it they are for sipping. Long blacks have similarities and are for drinking which is how I like my coffee and the after taste still matters.








Only lie there is that it wasn't really Jampit. It was from an estate near by.

John

-


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I just state things as I find them. If some one doesn't want to believe me that is fine by me.
> 
> John
> 
> -


It's not a case of belief, or otherwise. Changing your grind size, within the regions of "however it is ground", will certainly change the concentration of the shot. It is a direct consequence of the inescapable laws of the universe - very coarse will be weaker, finer grind will make it stronger, until you go too fine then it will get weaker again. This is sometimes called "dialling in".

DFK41 has frequently stated he likes a shot that's 'plus 60%' over the dose weight. This is less than 1:2.1. Not because I believe it is, but because it is.


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## AussieEx (Jul 10, 2013)

16.0g is a very sensible starting point for a Rancilio Silvia using the supplied double basket. I think the issue the OP has is with the coffee - supermarket beans, over-roasted to within an inch of their life and probably high % robusta too. That combined with a still-evolving palate for coffee. OP mentions in the most recent post that they might have confused 'acidic' for 'sour' - beans have very different levels of acidity, also dependent on their roast profile, but if roasted and pulled properly I don't know of anyone who considers a sour shot 'good'.

That said I agree that mastering a single shot is a skill worth pursuing, it's just trickier than mastering a double shot, particularly if OP only has the single portafilter supplied with the Silvia. In that case, it's not even worth trying IMO!


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## Ret0lein (Dec 12, 2017)

zeezaw said:


> Good idea. I would get a lot more than 100g this time so that even if you make a few mistakes you'll still be able to keep experimenting without having to start from scratch with a new coffee. Get at least 250g, if not double that (depending on how much coffee you drink).
> 
> Does the coffee bag have a roast date on it, so you can know exactly how fresh it is?


So, I was looking for a new roaster yesterday in my city and it turned out, there are quite a few.

I got 250g of a medium-dark roast, with milk chocolate and only slight acid.

And yes, it has the roast date on it: 12.01.2018. So pretty recent











hotmetal said:


> Cool. Are you comparing with straight espresso that you've had in a good coffee shop? If you don't normally drink straight espresso, it's pretty intense and acidic, because coffee just is. You might find that when people talk about sweet, they're starting from a different frame of reference, and these things are relative.
> 
> Regarding the change in flow rate, that *could* be (and I'm not saying it is) indicative of some channeling - a fracture in the puck or water getting between the puck and the basket edge. This would lead to light coloured and sour shots - so you may need to work on your prep. Are you using a naked portafilter or the spouted one? A naked PF will allow you to look at the bottom of the basket and see problem areas.





MWJB said:


> Why did you keep grinding coarser? As you pull the shot longer at the same grind, you will extract more & possibly get past sourness. By grinding coarser, you're continuing to under-extract.
> 
> 16:35g still sour. Not abnormal, but perhaps fixable by going finer.
> 
> ...





SimonN said:


> I'm surprised nobody has mentioned this, but you say you're using "supermarket beans"? If so, stop right there, that'll probably be half of the problem! Get yourself some freshly roasted coffee from one of the forum sponsors, something you like the sound of, then start again. Honestly, the difference is night and day.





AussieExpat said:


> 16.0g is a very sensible starting point for a Rancilio Silvia using the supplied double basket. I think the issue the OP has is with the coffee - supermarket beans, over-roasted to within an inch of their life and probably high % robusta too. That combined with a still-evolving palate for coffee. OP mentions in the most recent post that they might have confused 'acidic' for 'sour' - beans have very different levels of acidity, also dependent on their roast profile, but if roasted and pulled properly I don't know of anyone who considers a sour shot 'good'.
> 
> That said I agree that mastering a single shot is a skill worth pursuing, it's just trickier than mastering a double shot, particularly if OP only has the single portafilter supplied with the Silvia. In that case, it's not even worth trying IMO!


I switched to the coffee I bought yesterday and the output, with the very same grind setting was WAY better









Here is a little overview, which I tried (from fine to coarse):

Ground Coffee | Extracted Coffee | Extraction Time

16g | 32g | over 60s

16g | 32g | 50s

16g | 32g | 40s

(I mad a photo of the last tries puck, to show how deep the screw is in the coffee. Is that supposed to be like that?)

All of the tries were a little bit bitter, where the top one (finest grind) was the best. But probably only a lucky shot^^

I will work on those settings- in first tries I wanted to find out, how much the coffee affects the taste- and yes, who could have guessed, that it's very important









One last thing I noticed is, that I am far, far away from 30 seconds extraction time. Isn't the magic number 16g|32g|30s?

Or are these numbers just numbers for a rough orientation?

Thanks


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ret0lein said:


> One last thing I noticed is, that I am far, far away from 30 seconds extraction time. Isn't the magic number 16g|32g|30s?
> 
> Or are these numbers just numbers for a rough orientation?
> 
> Thanks


There's no magic numbers.

16:32g is rough guide to how strong you shot will be when extracted normally.

It might take 30s to do this, it might take more. If you're aiming for 16:32 stick to that, adjust grind until it tastes as good as you can get it, then record the time that this took.

Why do you think 60s was a lucky shot? If the subsequent shots didn't taste as good, why not go back to that again?

Bear in mind that it might be easier to balance the shot at 1:2.5, or 1:3, if you can take the shot a little weaker?


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## Ret0lein (Dec 12, 2017)

Thanks for taking the time to answer











MWJB said:


> There's no magic numbers.


I thought there is...



MWJB said:


> 16:32g is rough guide to how strong you shot will be when extracted normally.
> 
> It might take 30s to do this, it might take more. If you're aiming for 16:32 stick to that, adjust grind until it tastes as good as you can get it, then record the time that this took.
> 
> Why do you think 60s was a lucky shot? If the subsequent shots didn't taste as good, why not go back to that again?


Because I thought that when it takes 60s, there has to be something wrong and I have to adjust the grind to be coarser.

The espresso tasted better than in any tries before, but I am not sure, that it already has the "best" taste it can offer.

So you woul say, that even an extraction time of 60s is acceptable?

(except, of course, that 60s * 10coffees a day, will result in more than 60 hours a way of pure waiting time







).



MWJB said:


> Bear in mind that it might be easier to balance the shot at 1:2.5, or 1:3, if you can take the shot a little weaker?


I really like strong espressos. This is why I tried a darker roast than usual. If I cannot get a decent coffee with 1:2, I will try more liquid









Another side question: Do you think that the impression of the screw is too deep in the coffee (photo above)?

Thanks!


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

Ret0lein said:


> Thanks for taking the time to answer
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you want to do magic, you just need a wand & a spell book...no machines, tamper, grinders, other non-magical mechanical devices. 

60s is on the longer side, but if that is where it tastes best, for now, this is your datum. We're making tasty coffee, not conducting time trials 

Not sure why you have an imprint of the screw at all. Is this with all grind settings at 16.0g dose, or just the coarsest setting? Do you have an imprint if you place the dry puck in the group & then remove it without pulling a shot?

If you push more liquid through the puck then your coffee will get weaker.


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## AussieEx (Jul 10, 2013)

The Silvia has a prominent bolt screw for the shower screen. My pucks look just like the OP's with an impression from it. Some people get obsessive about it and say it causes channelling so swap it out for a countersunk screw (Google it if you're prepared to spend hours reading forum opinions ;-). Others -- like me -- just get on and make tasty coffee, leaving the 'puckology' to others


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