# Anyone help with advice?



## floppitydoppity (Jul 17, 2019)

I am considering one of these two machines . A sage barista express or a sage barista touch. Can anyone recommend these and has anyone had any issues of the coffee not being warm enough.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Can't comment on the touch. Owned a Barista Express for almost 2 years though. As long as you pre-warm your portafilter in the holder, whilst the machine is warming up, the coffee was fine. Steaming power isn't great, 54mm grouphead is a bit awkward, grinder isn't the best but manageable, and you can get some good tasting espresso from it. It's a good all-in-one machine for a reasonable price.

It really depends how much you want to spend and how deep into it you want to get. If this is going to be the "one and only" machine you'll have, and you want some good tasting coffee, which is about the same standard as your average local coffee shop, then go for it. If you want something a bit more, or want to upgrade, I'd avoid sage machines all together and get something with a 58mm grouphead straight off the bat (gaggia classic, rancilio silva, any second hand machine, maybe even a sage dual boiler).

You can get Barista Expresses second hand for fairly cheap - there are some for sale on this forum.


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## floppitydoppity (Jul 17, 2019)

Thank you very much for the informative answer . Very helpful


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

In case you're not aware, you can get a Sage Dual Boiler for £699 from ecookshop if you're ok with Black Sesame. You'd need a grinder to pair it with but if you get into this coffee lark you'd soon be dissatisfied with the build in sage one anyway.

You'll get those who aren't keen on Sage machines but the dual boiler is excellent. Alternatively, the La Spaziale Vivaldi Mini II for sale is a bargain for what is a cracking machine, especially with all the extras being included.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

dan1502 said:


> In case you're not aware, you can get a Sage Dual Boiler for £699 from ecookshop if you're ok with Black Sesame. You'd need a grinder to pair it with but if you get into this coffee lark you'd soon be dissatisfied with the build in sage one anyway.
> 
> You'll get those who aren't keen on Sage machines but the dual boiler is excellent. Alternatively, the La Spaziale Vivaldi Mini II for sale is a bargain for what is a cracking machine, especially with all the extras being included.


 Are you on commission with that Vivaldi Mini?

Although the Dual Boiler you can do mad slayer shots with. The people across the pond have done a lot of mods to them.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Cooffe said:


> Are you on commission with that Vivaldi Mini?


 No but I did own one and changed it for reasons other than not liking it.

I found it an excellent machine. Looking inside it, it is very well built, the group is heated so it heats up quickly and is temperature stable and the solenoid actuation was such that I could generally stop shots within 0.1g of each other easily. The Sage is good in that respect also but to be honest I'm not really a fan of the E61 lever action. The only thing I didn't like about it was that it doesn't have a shot timer. You'll see they are highly regarded in the US but for some reason don't seem to get the recognition they deserve, hence why I have given an opinion on it. Also I recently sold mine and on the basis of what I got for that (which I thought was a fair price) and this being newer and with the option of loads of accessories, I believe it's a bargain for someone and a better machine than some that people pay more for. I certainly preferred it to the Rocket R58 and Expobar Dual Boiler I've owned and there are aspects of it I prefer to the V.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Cooffe said:


> Although the Dual Boiler you can do mad slayer shots with. The people across the pond have done a lot of mods to them.


 You don't have to mod them to achieve this as far as I know but disconnecting the hot water microswitch so that pump doesn't run makes sense if that's what you want to do. The other thing is being able to set the preinfusion to say 60s then adjust the pump power (or flow I believe) over a wide range. I currently run mine at a constant 65% but am experimenting. I'm also told that it's possible to get seal kits for them and you can get replacement pumps, upgrade the OPV etc so I don't think they're as bad as some make out in terms of longevity despite getting parts from the official supplier potentially being problematic.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dan1502 said:


> You don't have to mod them to achieve this as far as I know but disconnecting the hot water microswitch so that pump doesn't run makes sense if that's what you want to do. The other thing is being able to set the preinfusion to say 60s then adjust the pump power (or flow I believe) over a wide range. I currently run mine at a constant 65% but am experimenting. I'm also told that it's possible to get seal kits for them and you can get replacement pumps, upgrade the OPV etc so I don't think they're as bad as some make out in terms of longevity despite getting parts from the official supplier potentially being problematic.


 Your method Is pressure profiling, the mod being discussed is manual flow profilng.

Mod discussed here

https://www.home-barista.com/espresso-machines/breville-dual-boiler-slayer-shots-t54849.html


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Sorry, I'm aware of the mod but haven't yet looked into the effect of the reduced pump power (as opposed to lower OPV limit) in terms of flow and pressure other than observing the gauge during a shot.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

I guess after reading 47 pages I'll properly understand it. Just not had time yet.


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

dan1502 said:


> I guess after reading 47 pages I'll properly understand it. Just not had time yet.


 You just need to read the first post


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

dan1502 said:


> I guess after reading 47 pages I'll properly understand it. Just not had time yet.


 You're referencing what they called slayer "like" shots which was their inital idea. I think at about page 17 they discover you can put a needle valve in the flow path and control with flow (think bianca with a paddle etc). This produces a true slayer shot.


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## ashcroc (Oct 28, 2016)

Cooffe said:


> You're referencing what they called slayer "like" shots which was their inital idea. I think at about page 17 they discover you can put a needle valve in the flow path and control with flow (think bianca with a paddle etc). This produces a true slayer shot.


It also leaves the ability to still run the machine as standard though you lose the hot water tap (guess where the needle valve the repurpose is!). Imo that's a small price to pay especially on a tank fed machine.


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

ashcroc said:


> Cooffe said:
> 
> 
> > You're referencing what they called slayer "like" shots which was their inital idea. I think at about page 17 they discover you can put a needle valve in the flow path and control with flow (think bianca with a paddle etc). This produces a true slayer shot.
> ...


 Yeah exactly. If I see a SDB come up second hand I'm getting one to mess with. Was really considering messing with the Minima...


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Gone a bit off topic but this explains the mod.

http://coffeegeek.com/forums/espresso/machines/656891?Page=139


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## Mrboots2u (May 10, 2013)

Cooffe said:


> You're referencing what they called slayer "like" shots which was their inital idea. I think at about page 17 they discover you can put a needle valve in the flow path and control with flow (think bianca with a paddle etc). This produces a true slayer shot.


 In a nutshell, I routed the brew line through the hot water valve, _which is a needle valve_. This means ALL of your brew comes through the water valve. If it is closed, NO water gets to the puck/group, no matter how hard or long you run the pump. To do a Slayer shot, you just crack open the water valve, start the pump right at full pressure and keep it running. After it fills the headspace above the puck, pressure will start to build, only just as with Slayer, it will build all the way and not stop at one or two bar, even though the actual flow is still slow. You will see the thickest stickiest gloopy gloppy espresso start coming out and then you can increase the flow by opening the knob (at whatever rate feels good to you). As the shot progresses, you can slow the flow by _progressively_ closing the knob as you wish (which you cannot do on Slayer), and end the shot by turning off the pump or closing the valve all the way and then turning off the pump. My very first shot, with no practice and experimentation, was a masterpiece. I just used the same grind setting that I had been using for the last few weeks doing Breville-"Slayerlike" shots using PP55. I wish I had four hands and an LED espresso light and a fancy mirror for video'ing. You guys would die.

They are not adding a needle valve in the dB. See above


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## Cooffe (Mar 7, 2019)

Mrboots2u said:


> In a nutshell, I routed the brew line through the hot water valve, _which is a needle valve_. This means ALL of your brew comes through the water valve. If it is closed, NO water gets to the puck/group, no matter how hard or long you run the pump. To do a Slayer shot, you just crack open the water valve, start the pump right at full pressure and keep it running. After it fills the headspace above the puck, pressure will start to build, only just as with Slayer, it will build all the wa﻿y and not stop at one or two bar, even though the actual flow is still slow. You will see the thickest stickiest gloopy gloppy espresso start coming out and then you can increase the flow by opening the knob (at whatever rate feels good to you). As the shot progresses, you can slow the flow by _progressively_ closing the knob as you wish (which you cannot do on Slayer), and end the shot by turning off the pump or closing the valve all the way and then turning off the pump. My very first shot, with no practice and experimentation, was a masterpiece. I just used the same grind setting that I had been using for the last few weeks doing Breville-"Slayerlike" shots using PP55. I wish I had four hands and an LED espresso light and a fancy mirror for video'ing. You guys would die.
> ﻿
> 
> They are not adding a needle valve in the dB. See above


 Ah right ok - I read a bit further on where they actually changed it to a needle valve that was less sensitive, but that required some irreversible mods. Maybe that's where I'm getting mixed up. Either way, saves spending ~£2k on a machine when you can get the dual boiler and do the reversible mod and get full flow profiling.


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## dan1502 (Sep 8, 2012)

Yes, I knew about the ability to control pump power before buying and also that you could open the tap mid shot but only heard about the above relatively easy mod after. I'm getting excellent results without the mod and am not sure whether I want to try it during the warranty period but as it's fully reversible I may well do. The bit I probably wasn't clear about that I don't yet fully understand is how the pump power settings work and their impact of pressure/flow (I've been meaning to watch the gauge with a blind filter).

@Mrboots2u Did you try this mod before buying the Bianca?


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