# Help! Undrinkable shots from Expobar DB



## dare

Please help if you can, my new expobar db arrived from bella barista a few days ago along with a pack of their gaslight espresso blend. So I've just tried 12 different shots (feeling sick and got shakes now) trying to find a balanced shot something sweet and tasty.

Every single one was undrinkable what on earth am I doing wrong? I'll briefly summarise a few below. Every shot was exactly 15g in with a 15g vst basket. So outputs:

28g in 28 and 35 secs. Very sour, over intense

40g in 21 secs. Still sour, less so though

42g in 30 secs. Still some fruity sourness, slight sweetness possibly emerging, tastes more bland.

Everything else was consistent- tamp, temp 93. Brew pressure according to the gauge is 10.5 bar.


----------



## Glenn

Try a different temperature

Drop the temp to 92c and see if that helps

Try a coffee that you are familiar with (that you used in your previous machine)


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Might want to try some other beans - maybe Gaslight isn't to your taste.


----------



## Mrboots2u

dare said:


> Please help if you can, my new expobar db arrived from bella barista a few days ago along with a pack of their gaslight espresso blend. So I've just tried 12 different shots (feeling sick and got shakes now) trying to find a balanced shot something sweet and tasty.
> 
> Every single one was undrinkable what on earth am I doing wrong? I'll briefly summarise a few below. Every shot was exactly 15g in with a 15g vst basket. So outputs:
> 
> 28g in 28 and 35 secs. Very sour, over intense
> 
> 40g in 21 secs. Still sour, less so though
> 
> 42g in 30 secs. Still some fruity sourness, slight sweetness possibly emerging, tastes more bland.
> 
> Everything else was consistent- tamp, temp 93. Brew pressure according to the gauge is 10.5 bar.


Whats the roast date on the coffee , what are you grinding it with


----------



## GCGlasgow

When were the beans roasted, maybe they need resting longer? just a guess.


----------



## jeebsy

The Systemic Kid said:


> Might want to try some other beans - maybe Gaslight isn't to your taste.


THis, i didn't especially like it as espresso but it was not bad in milk


----------



## dare

Mrboots2u said:


> Whats the roast date on the coffee , what are you grinding it with


Roasted on the 19th feb so should be perfect from that point of view. Must be said it didn't occur to me that maybe the beans aren't to my liking though I would of expected to at least get a shot that's drinkable....

Grinding with a mignon.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Go ristretto 15 into 20g somewhere between 25-35


----------



## dare

Mrboots2u said:


> Go ristretto 15 into 20g somewhere between 25-35


Ok, that's the only recipe I haven't tried, though I assumed 'sourness' which I'm trying to reduce was associated with under extraction which is why I kept grinding coarser for a higher output which still didn't help. It seemed to reduce it a tad.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ristretto won't be sour might be bitter tho .give it a go .....

Using a naked pf? Any Channeling ?


----------



## dare

Mrboots2u said:


> Ristretto won't be sour might be bitter tho .give it a go .....
> 
> Using a naked pf? Any Channeling ?


I'll give it a go, no haven't got a naked pf for this machine but pretty sure there's no channeling though having looked at the pucks closely.


----------



## Dylan

dare said:


> I'll give it a go, no haven't got a naked pf for this machine but pretty sure there's no channeling though having looked at the pucks closely.


Its difficult to impossible to tell if your shots are channeling by looking at a puck, unless it is so bad it literally doesn't wet one part of the puck. (that said, perhaps I have something to learn in puck diagnostics)

Try WDT (http://www.home-barista.com/weiss-distribution-technique.html) before extraction to see if that helps. Bad distribution commonly creates bad or undrinkable shots.


----------



## dare

Thanks Dylan, yep I definitely use the Wdt technique, I used to have a naked pf so learnt to diagnose, all I meant by looking at the puck was that there weren't any little holes in it, which sometimes there have been in the past.


----------



## mremanxx

As a novice my opinion will probably be way off.

Anyhoo,

If you haven't used that bean before I would start there.

I have tried about 8 different bean types in the last 4-5 weeks.

For some reason Yirgacheffe can do no wrong.

Under extraction, overextraction, lungo with a little mik or as a flat white........all are great to my taste.

This is the crux of my point, maybe your taste buds don't like Gaslight beans.


----------



## dare

Many thanks I value every opinion, I'm just as much a novice to. I think you might be right, others have suggested that it might just be the beans to. I've never tried them before BB kindly included them with my machine. I usually use rave sig blend which I love, BUT that's always been with milk and sugar, which I'm trying to get away from. I shouldn't need milk and sugar to make espresso drinkable.


----------



## mremanxx

As I said mate just a thought, sometimes the obvious is the answer


----------



## DoubleShot

If when you try a different bean, perhaps one that you're familiar with, and find most/all shots are drinkable, it will be panic over and a huge sigh of relief I'm sure?


----------



## Mrboots2u

dare said:


> Many thanks I value every opinion, I'm just as much a novice to. I think you might be right, others have suggested that it might just be the beans to. I've never tried them before BB kindly included them with my machine. I usually use rave sig blend which I love, BUT that's always been with milk and sugar, which I'm trying to get away from. I shouldn't need milk and sugar to make espresso drinkable.


You might well not like it

Once you have cycled through a range of brew ratios ( ristretto included ) then thats a fair assumption to come to..

As said a shorter shot should at least cut sourness possibly increasing bitterness in its place.....


----------



## dare

Mrboots2u said:


> You might well not like it
> 
> Once you have cycled through a range of brew ratios ( ristretto included ) then thats a fair assumption to come to..
> 
> As said a shorter shot should at least cut sourness possibly increasing bitterness in its place.....


I guess so, I'll try the ristretto and hopefully let you know but I'm not holding out much hope


----------



## DoubleShot

Do you have any brewing equipment that you could try the BB beans in? Have you thought about cupping? This could possibly rule out whether you do or do not like the taste of these beans.

All credit for above suggestions to Mrboots2u who suggested them to me on a different thread.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Yeah Good idea DS can you brew em , french press see if there is anything you like in there at all?

Plus are you used to drinking neat espresso (if this sounds patronising apologies , but i see you like milk and sugar in rave .. ) changing machine wont instantly make drinks different or drinkable ( grinder perhaps ) ...


----------



## dare

DoubleShot said:


> Do you have any brewing equipment that you could try the BB beans in? Have you thought about cupping? This could possibly rule out whether you do or do not like the taste of these beans.
> 
> All credit for above suggestions to Mrboots2u who suggested them to me on a different thread.


Hmmmm I don't have the equipment for this I'd rather just try different beans. Isn't cupping when you cuddle up to a loved one? Well that would ease the pain I've had with these beans.... hangon or is it spooning?


----------



## dare

Mrboots2u said:


> Yeah Good idea DS can you brew em , french press see if there is anything you like in there at all?
> 
> Plus are you used to drinking neat espresso (if this sounds patronising apologies , but i see you like milk and sugar in rave .. ) changing machine wont instantly make drinks different or drinkable ( grinder perhaps ) ...


Good point, I'm not actually used to drinking espresso on its own, so that'll play a part to. I had an excellent espresso shot from colonna and smalls in Bath though which gave me a good benchmark of how something decent can taste


----------



## Mrboots2u

dare said:


> Good point, I'm not actually used to drinking espresso on its own, so that'll play a part to. I had an excellent espresso shot from colonna and smalls in Bath though which gave me a good benchmark of how something decent can taste


Ok , i suspect that the C & S beans and roast will be a different kettle of fish ( roast level wise ) to the Gaslight ( based on a couple of bags i had ) not saying one is better or worse just i suspect they will be very different in the cup


----------



## DoubleShot

dare said:


> Hmmmm I don't have the equipment for this I'd rather just try different beans. Isn't cupping when you cuddle up to a loved one? Well that would ease the pain I've had with these beans.... hangon or is it spooning?


That's spooning, lol! 

This is cupping:


----------



## jeebsy

Mrboots2u said:


> not saying one is better or worse


go on.....


----------



## dare

DoubleShot said:


> That's spooning, lol!
> 
> This is cupping:


Ive learnt something new today


----------



## DoubleShot

dare said:


> Ive learnt something new today


I know the feeling. I've learnt quite a few new things off Mrboots2u and the like.


----------



## PeterF

It's the Gas Light not the machine. I could not get on with this blend both espresso wise & pour over.


----------



## charris

Is the Mignon also new? How many kgs through it so far?


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Do BB give any guideline for extraction on these beans?

May as well try the Ristretto option and also get some beans that you do know and like.


----------



## Mrboots2u

urbanbumpkin said:


> Do BB give any guideline for extraction on these beans?
> 
> May as well try the Ristretto option and also get some beans that you do know and like.


Recipe on site

18>30 at 92 so a 1:1.6 shorter shot

OP try it in milk too, as this is more predominantly where it will be blended for I suspect.

If your looking for an espresso like c&s profile in the cup, then a nice single origin from Rave or HB perhaps as opposed it milk based blends.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Doh. Should have checked that

Only tried BB's beans once and they were better in milk.


----------



## Mrboots2u

Butterscotch is an interesting tasting note.. Its one I often get muddled I'm my palate as a little sour ( why I don't know and poss due to extraction is use with a particular coffee )/


----------



## dare

Well I thought I'd report back given all the useful feedback- tried a lower temp 92 as suggested by Glenn and a ristretto as suggested by mrboots2u so I got 15g in with 21g out in 28secs. To me it didn't taste very different from any of the other shots, still very fruity/sour-ish and just not to my liking.

Time me to try some new beans that I'm more used to


----------



## Mrboots2u

Ok get some beans you are used to and let them rest ... I sense a little that you have lost faith in them being able to make a decent drink ..

Did you brew them btw

None of the next bit is meant to sound patronising , so if you know it already please ignore me..

Your current fav drink at home is a milk based one with sugar - this will be sweet from the milk and the sugar

Perhaps most things will taste sour in comaparison? Are these drinks sour or acidic???

Your other reference point for espresso is from Collona and Smalls ( presume you drank this neat ? ) - this will be a single origin on the lighter side from roundhill or hasbean probably ( made with a super fab grinder ) ..but how did this taste , fruity , sweet ? might help us get you to order something you like also

The beans you have from Bella Barista ( from the limited experience i had of them ) are more inclined to taste toffee and sweeter in milk , but unless the blend has changed drastically then it will was a medium to darker style ...so different to the C & S espresso

A new machine will help making espresso more consistent and easier and will help improve taste with pre infusion and temp stability .. On its own it wont be a magic bullett for divine neat espresso - especially if you have a bench mark of one the best shops in the Uk to match it against ...

Order something you re familiar with , as you know it will taste different with milk ( tons sweeter ) than without .. as an aside Rave Signature seems to be blended to work better in milk , its a wholesale blend for cafes and bars where this is the predominant way it is made...this isnt to say it undrinkable as espresso but i think most people seem to ancecdotally prefer it in milk

Glenn made a good point to me as well ( and will probably post on here too ) , what does the water taste like straight from the boiler , what water are you using ?


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Where abouts in the country are you? Is there a forum member near you that can help out. Or alternatively get some training on your own kit at home.


----------



## Eyedee

From following this thread and seeing Mr Boots go above and beyond the call of duty in his efforts to try and advise you, I had come to the same conclusion as Urbanbumpkin----- training.

It is all well and good having top class machinery but it appears the skill level needs improving slightly.

I'm pretty confident in saying that wherever you are in the country there will be someone available to give you training. It may cost a little, but so has your coffee machinery.

Look on it as a way to get your skill set up to speed then think of the many hours/days/years etc that these skills will be used. A small price to pay IMHO

Ian


----------



## Dylan

dare said:


> Thanks Dylan, yep I definitely use the Wdt technique, I used to have a naked pf so learnt to diagnose, all I meant by looking at the puck was that there weren't any little holes in it, which sometimes there have been in the past.


I haven't read any info on the little holes that appear. But My guess when I saw them was that they are where a group of fines had come to rest on the surface and were thus easily dissipated by the water. I would imagine you could come away with a very evenly wet top of the puck but still suffer from channeling through the rest.

Certainly buying a naked PF and a VST would help you be sure of this.


----------



## hotmetal

I quite like the re-blended Gaslight from BB but I agree with boots it's really for milk drinks. I probably wouldn't drink it as a straight espresso. However I am surprised it's tasting sour because it is a med-med/dk and is more toffee-choc than fruity or bright.

This taste isn't some kind of taint left over from manufacture is it? You said the machine was new, have you flushed water through it (as in fully filled the steam boiler and then drawn it all off via the hot water tap). Just a thought.

Otherwise I'd agree with the others, if you're getting the right ratio in the right time frame, go back to a bean you know


----------



## dare

Well thanks to all for the excellent advice and opinions especially mrboots2u, I do agree that maybe I'm just not used to straight espresso given my previous sweet milky flat white obsession and the consensus that gaslight probably isn't best for espresso and they're just not to my liking.

Training could be a possibility I live in the Birmingham area- as for the water, well I'm using tap water. Soft water area, I used to use bottled water as recommended here on my old gaggia but it made no difference to taste at all and so reverted to tap water.

The brewtus was flushed out pretty thoroughly and I think bb did it to as the hoses had water in when it arrived but may well need more flushing through.


----------



## Eyedee

Why not try a new thread asking for training around your area.

It should at least give you an idea on availability and cost.

Ian


----------



## Mrboots2u

dare said:


> Well thanks to all for the excellent advice and opinions especially mrboots2u, I do agree that maybe I'm just not used to straight espresso given my previous sweet milky flat white obsession and the consensus that gaslight probably isn't best for espresso and they're just not to my liking.
> 
> Training could be a possibility I live in the Birmingham area- as for the water, well I'm using tap water. Soft water area, I used to use bottled water as recommended here on my old gaggia but it made no difference to taste at all and so reverted to tap water.
> 
> The brewtus was flushed out pretty thoroughly and I think bb did it to as the hoses had water in when it arrived but may well need more flushing through.


Plenty of half decent cafe's in Brum to get a espresso from

6/8

Saints

Faculty ....

Give em a go , see what you enjoy ...


----------



## urbanbumpkin

I think Gary **** does training and is in Brum. It would be money well spent. If you're after a god shot it's like having the Messiah pop round.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

PS I'm also thinking of getting training off Gary when I eventually get a spare day. I still can't do anything resembling consistent Latte art and it really annoys me. I'm sure he can improve just about everything else I do coffee related too.


----------



## dare

Yep latte art requires a lot of patience. Oh the days I spent frothing water and washing up liquid mind you once you've discovered the knack it's easy- bit like learning to ride a bike. The pouring of the milk into whatever pattern is straightforward the key is having the perfect microfoam to do it in the first place.


----------



## DoubleShot

dare said:


> Yep latte art requires a lot of patience. Oh the days I spent frothing water and washing up liquid mind you once you've discovered the knack it's easy- bit like learning to ride a bike. The pouring of the milk into whatever pattern is straightforward the key is having the perfect microfoam to do it in the first place.


That's what keeps me going. One day I'll have the knack to produce silky microfoam every time then...Free Pour Friday thread and the next latte art competition...here I come!


----------



## Epic_Espresso

Just stay calm and reduce the variables. Keep the dose at 15g and set the grinder so nothing comes from the group. Then make the grind coarser until you get a shot at 30g nett. If you go coarse enough for this to take longer than 30 seconds, increase your dose and go back to finer grinds. Record everything about each shot so you only change one thing at once. Weigh the grinds in the group, time the shot and weigh the result. Aim for double output in 25-30 seconds.

Game on!


----------

