# Mara X - Second shot steam performance in X mode



## itguy

Morning everyone

I have noticed over the last few days something slightly strange with my Mara X and wondered if it is my workflow or not.

In the morning I get the machine to warm up on a Wi-Fi plug at 5.30. I tend to pull the first coffee at around 6.15am.

This is a normal 18g shot, I'm using X mode and not flushing prior etc.

I pull the shot, then leave the machine a minute or so to boost the steam pressure and then steam at circa 1 to 1.5 bar. All good.

Machine stays on (and have disabled standby eco mode).

Wife gets up at about 7ish, I then go up to it and pull the second shot of the day. No flush, just pull the shot.

The boiler pressure then seems to boost a little but not as much as it did for my shot, and then when steaming the milk it drops down to about 0.6bar and doesn't seem to want to boost up fully, giving pretty average milk results.

Anyone else have this issue at all? Is it my workflow / timings etc?


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## Doram

itguy said:


> I pull the shot, then leave the machine a minute or so to boost the steam pressure and then steam at circa 1 to 1.5 bar. All good.
> 
> Machine stays on (and have disabled standby eco mode).
> 
> Wife gets up at about 7ish, I then go up to it and pull the second shot of the day. No flush, just pull the shot.


 Just to be sure I understand: You are doing exactly the same for both shots and getting different results? If yes, then I didn't have this issue and don't know what would be causing it.

This works for me: I pull a shot, then wash the PF and basket, then steam. By the time I have washed the PF and basket, steam pressure is good (and always feels about the same).
I also tried flushing steam for a second before pulling the shot, and steaming right after the shot (leaving the cleaning to afterwards). This works too, but I prefer to clean first, so I stopped doing the pre-shot steam flush and just stick to Brew->clean->steam.


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## itguy

Yes I'm using the same brew>wait>steam>clean (not flushing at all in any of it) for both of my shots.

I'll try again and do two brew>wait>steam>clean cycles one after another and see what that does at lunchtime.

It's just like the gicar box got a bit confused somehow. I only pulled the brew lever up once per brew as you'd expect etc.


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## DavecUK

I've never had this happen either?


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## itguy

Well just did a normal warm up cycle, made one double shot and steamed two lots of milk perfectly. I'll check out what the machine does tomorrow.

I wonder if I was just too quick on the second coffee I made and didn't give the boost function time to really act. I'll take it a bit slower tomorrow and see.


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## Doram

itguy said:


> I wonder if I was just too quick on the second coffee I made and didn't give the boost function time to really act. I'll take it a bit slower tomorrow and see.


 Probably that. It's a computer in there, so more likely that it is doing exactly the same thing every time (unlike us). 😉


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## itguy

UPDATE

Well I can only surmise that it was my workflow being too quick yesterday.

Machine performed as expected (designed) today. Did the same ritual, but this time after I brewed I cleaned the portafilter to use a bit more time up, then steamed. Worked fine.

I did the two drinks over the same timeframe as yesterday and had no issues. I also pulled another shot and steamed straight after the second drink too (so 3 in total) and it worked fine too.

So it really does seem like brew>wait (boost)>steam> "wait" >brew>wait (boost)>steam is fine


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## djrustycans

I've been having issues with my few weeks old Mara X in 'brew' priority mode. The steaming behaviour is erratic. First drink of the day (usually steam first but have tried the other way!) is fine and works as expected with often 1.5 bar of steam pressure.

I leave the machine on and make the second drink around an hour later - by this time the pressure at idle is sitting below 1, maybe 0.75. If I release some steam or pull the group lever momentarily, the steam pressure gradually rises up to 1.5 bar, at which point I begin to steam but very regularly, part way through steaming the pressure suddenly starts dropping and the steam wand starts to screech, with the pressure ending up at around 0.6 - milk ruined!

Sometimes, this loss of pressure has randomly occurred when making two milk drinks back to back as I've read in the posts above.
I've experimented with doing the espresso first which seemed to work for a day but it's just let me down again this morning (grrrr).

I've been in touch with Bella Barista support but not got any firm solution yet. In 'steam' priority mode, the pressure is stable and haven't encountered any hiccups but I prefer the coffee in brew mode - besides, I should be able to make a couple of lattes without problems in BTP, no????!!!

Best,

David


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## DavecUK

How much milk and for how long are you steaming when this happens.....Is the autofill kicking in?

I'm also wondering if lifting the lever momentarily actually does enough to kick it into steam mode, but from memory it always seemed fine on mine. in fact when I opened the steam valve it would start boosting the pressure. I do have to recommission MaraX soon as I need to test some new stuff on her...so I will also have a closer look at this. Seems strange that it's random?


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## itguy

I must admit, I had this today too.

First drink, 6:30am (machine switched on at 5am), X mode, no flushing of group head, pulled shot, waited a minute then steamed milk - pressure steady between 1 and 1.5bar.

Left machine, made wife drink at 7am.

Pulled shot, no flush. Waited a minute for pressure to build and started steaming. Pressure quickly dropping down to 0.6bar.

I purged the steam wand on both occasions, but the only thing I cannot remember is if I did it multiple times or once, and when.

I am wondering if I did an initial purge straight after the extraction, then waited and then purged again before steaming.

Does this trick the PID in to thinking that I've already done the steaming that I need?

I am wondering if Lelit would share a logic diagram of how the PID works in X mode? I can see why they wouldn't want to for IP purposes, but maybe they could share with you @DavecUK under an NDA, so we can get a bit better advice on how to get the most out of the machine?


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## itguy

Have just made another two drinks - but this time one after the other.

Workflow;

(pressure about 0.7bar - temp setting 0) pull shot, no flush, start steaming after about 1 min and 1 quick purge, pressure at 1.5bar, remaining steady.

2 mins later, Clean wand, purge again, then pull next shot (pressure at 1.5bar), no flush, start steaming after 1 purge of wand, pressure now at 2 bar but drops back to about 1.4 bar during steaming, stays steady.

So good pressures when using back to back. Presume the pressure got up to 2 bar because of the second steam boost kicking in whilst brewing my second shot?


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## DavecUK

itguy said:


> I am wondering if Lelit would share a logic diagram of how the PID works in X mode? I can see why they wouldn't want to for IP purposes, but maybe they could share with you @DavecUK under an NDA, so we can get a bit better advice on how to get the most out of the machine?


 I will ask when I next get the opportunity.


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## itguy

Had this issue again today - but this time it was when pulling a first shot, not a second.

Usual procedure, pulled shot, waited a minute for the pressure to come up then opened up the steam wand to purge, then started steaming. Pressure started dropping and then it just really started plummeting down to about 0.6 bar, which is barely enough for steaming.

Really frustrating. I think I will need to talk to Bella Barista about it and see if they can make any sense of what is going on.

I'm assuming that no-one can think of a reason that the OPV mod would cause this? I am thinking of reversing it and going 'factory' for a while to see if it stops this from happening.

My OPV mod is back in to the pump with a T (and no NRV), rather than OPV to tank directly, if that makes any difference.

Almost wondering if the pump is pulling some air into the OPV tube via vacuum somehow, and that then is lifting the OPV open a touch. Obviously something isn't quite right.


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## DavecUK

I can't see how the OPV mod would cause this and to the "best of my knowledge" the software has not been revised since I tested it....However mine has been away while I have been on other projects, although I do have to recommission it again to test some software due in 2021 (probably the latter half, not sure).


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## itguy

Thanks Dave. I have emailed BB to see if they have any reports of this or info they can offer.

New software... that sounds interesting....


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## DavecUK

itguy said:


> New software... that sounds interesting....


 Just some ideas I had to improve (for me) how MaraX functions. I'll get to test whether it works as I hope it will and whether it should roll out.


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## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> I'm assuming that no-one can think of a reason that the OPV mod would cause this? I am thinking of reversing it and going 'factory' for a while to see if it stops this from happening.


 If I were you... I'd do exactly that. Run the process of elimination. This is the only way you will ever be sure. Let it happen a couple of more times with your current setup (with the mod) to prove the concept. Then, undo the mod and use the machine for a month or so as "stock" and see if this happens. Painful, I know...


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## Doram

itguy said:


> I'm assuming that no-one can think of a reason that the OPV mod would cause this? I am thinking of reversing it and going 'factory' for a while to see if it stops this from happening.
> 
> My OPV mod is back in to the pump with a T (and no NRV), rather than OPV to tank directly, if that makes any difference.
> 
> Almost wondering if the pump is pulling some air into the OPV tube via vacuum somehow, and that then is lifting the OPV open a touch. Obviously something isn't quite right.


 FWIW, I have never had this issue, and I have the OPV going back to the pump inlet with a T connector (so the same as yours). My machine works like a clock, predictable and always the same (touch wood, don't let the devil hear I said that).


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## itguy

I put my machine back to standard yesterday evening and this morning I have done my usual routine and on the second shot (pulled 40 mins after the first), I had the same steaming (/steam boost) issue.

So one thing is proved and that is that it is/was not the OPV mod doing anything funny on my machine.

I'm pleased about that as it does save a lot of water refills !

So, on to Bella Barista now for advice. It does sound like there isn't something right with my machine though. I could do with trying to capture it on video. I think the only way I might be able to do this though is by videoing every shot I produce over the next few days, so i can capture when it does it!

I did see a video on home-barista.com of a MaraX not steam boosting because of low boiler water (induced by pulling water out of the tank through the water wand), but I am not doing that. It does make me wonder if mine has a problem with the water level indicator possibly. Who knows!


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## Doram

itguy said:


> I put my machine back to standard yesterday evening and this morning I have done my usual routine and on the second shot (pulled 40 mins after the first), I had the same steaming (/steam boost) issue.
> 
> So one thing is proved and that is that it is/was not the OPV mod doing anything funny on my machine.


 Thanks for confirming it has nothing to do with the mod (I sort of knew that, but good for others who want to try it).

Sorry to hear you have the issue and hopefully you can get it sorted soon. Fingers crossed. 🤞


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## DavecUK

itguy said:


> I did see a video on home-barista.com of a MaraX not steam boosting because of low boiler water (induced by pulling water out of the tank through the water wand), but I am not doing that. It does make me wonder if mine has a problem with the water level indicator possibly. Who knows!


 There is a very specific situation that can be induced by pulling a shot, and it *only happens during the shot*. If the water level is "on the cusp", pulling a shot can actually cool down the boiler enough to cause the probe tip to lose contact with the water. This will disable the heating element and prevent the boost you would normally expect.

This can, but not often (rare occurrence). It largely depends on how much you steam and use the steam boiler. *Remembering that an autofill is always a slight overfill, for obvious reasons!*



If you never use steam or hot water, you will almost never see the issue.


If you steam occasionally, then you might see the issue from time to time (as steaming can bring the water level lower and lower...until)


If you always run a bit of hot water out of the tap to induce an autofill after steaming, you will probably never see the issue


If you take small amounts of hot water to warm a cup and the machine doesn't always autofill after...then you will occasionally see this issue.


Summary, if you do things that remove water or steam from the boiler and it doesn't autofill....at some point it's going to want to. if it's very close to autofilling and you pull a shot or water through the group.....then it might expose the probe and disable the heating element. *Critically important to remember is this only happens during the shot, due to last shot protection...The boiler autofill is disabled whilst a shot is being pulled to not disturb (reduce ) the pressure for the shot. As soon as the lever is returned to the home position, the autofill should begin and the boiler temperature start to boost.*

Note: I don't believe this is the other persons problem, but it's good to understand a little more about the programming


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## itguy

Video of the issue - although sometimes the pressure goes lower than this time. I just thought I'd try videoing in case something odd happened, and it did!

This is in brew priority mode, coffee temp position 0 and machine left on and warm for 2hrs beforehand. No flushing/purging before doing this video.

Have spoken to BB and they think might be water too soft/over filtered, causing a boiler overfill = not enough space for steam.

Waiting to hear back from them watching the video too.

Is this video typical of your experiences of steaming with yours?


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## DavecUK

Examined the Video, nothing wrong with your machine....at position 0 the steam boost is a tad less....than at 1 or II, just the nature of the programming.



at 40s you finished your shot (steam boost started)


1m 14s, boosting almost reached maximum (*steaming at this point would have been ideal)*


1m 37s system still boosting steam boiler almost reached 1.5 bar and* system starting to down temp steam*, trying to return to brew temp stability


1m 40s You Purged wand, system boosted again (having detected a slight temp drop due to purge (but it won't do a massive boost, because it's already close.)


2m 06s Heaters kicked in again, but the PID level control won't give the biggest kick


2m 41 heater Kicked in again


Nothing wrong at all, It always kept you at or above 0.8 bar. I would advise, you start to steam a little earlier and don't leave it so long to begin steaming.


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## MediumRoastSteam

For comparison:

@itguy - try to follow the same process as this video from Lelit. See what happens to you. I have to say, in the Lelit's video, I don't see such a drop in pressure as I see in yours. As per Dave's comment above, try steaming a little earlier when the dial is at 1.25bar so it's a fair comparison.

Note that, when Mauro purges steam, his gauge hardly moves... Contrary to ItGuy's experience.


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## itguy

Thank both. I have just switched it on to warm up again and I will have another go.

So am I right in thinking that the steam boost function STARTS when the lever goes down after the extraction? Maybe I have simply been waiting too long after extracting and not catching the heater at the right time?

This might explain why I am seeing it happen sometimes and not others, as sometimes I might be quicker on the extraction??


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## DavecUK

It boosts from when you lift the lever, and then if you don't steam, stops boosting after a while....so it can get back down for your next shot, or not overheat things too much.


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## itguy

Ok - so I am almost certainly waiting too long then, as I was assuming that it boosted after the shot had finished - hence why I waited a bit.

What I will test then - prepare milk in to jug, pull shot, check pressure is not silly-low (ie needs to be 1bar or more) then start steaming almost straight away, trying to ride the wave of the heater being on?

Then clean out PF after all prep done.


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## DavecUK

itguy said:


> Ok - so I am almost certainly waiting too long then, as I was assuming that it boosted after the shot had finished - hence why I waited a bit.
> 
> What I will test then - prepare milk in to jug, pull shot, check pressure is not silly-low (ie needs to be 1bar or more) then start steaming almost straight away, trying to ride the wave of the heater being on?
> 
> Then clean out PF after all prep done.


 That's pretty much what I do/did, works well for me. I used to let the pressure rise to about 1.3 and hit it then because I didn't want the heating elements to go off and the boiler to be coasting up.


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## itguy

Got it! Right, machine is warming up.

In terms of brew temp setting 0 or 1, I do tend to prefer my shots at 0 (with a medium roast coffee). Do you think the steam using the above method should be ok in brew temp 0 setting?

I don't really mind if it is 1.2bar, 1.5bar etc, as long as I can use it when it is reasonably consistent. It's the pressure drop that gives me really awful milk!


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## Doram

itguy said:


> So am I right in thinking that the steam boost function STARTS when the lever goes down after the extraction?


 I think it starts when the lever goes up (beginning of extraction).

This workflow works great for me: Walk up to the machine and pull a shot -> knock out the puck, rinse and wash the basket and PF -> go back to the machine and steam. The time it takes to clean the PF and basket is perfect to get the steam pressure to ~1.5, which works great every time. (This is on brew temp setting 1, so on 0 it might be different, as @DavecUK explained). I like this workflow because once the coffee is ready, I want to enjoy it without having to worry about cleaning the machine.


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## itguy

Doram said:


> I think it starts when the lever goes up (beginning of extraction).
> 
> This workflow works great for me: Walk up to the machine and pull a shot -> knock out the puck, rinse and wash the basket and PF -> go back to the machine and steam. The time it takes to clean the PF and basket is perfect to get the steam pressure to ~1.5, which works great every time. (This is on brew temp setting 1, so on 0 it might be different, as @DavecUK explained). I like this workflow because once the coffee is ready, I want to enjoy it without having to worry about cleaning the machine.


 That's the same as I did in the video - presumably I just took a bit too long over it though!


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## DavecUK

itguy said:


> Got it! Right, machine is warming up.
> 
> In terms of brew temp setting 0 or 1, I do tend to prefer my shots at 0 (with a medium roast coffee). Do you think the steam using the above method should be ok in brew temp 0 setting?
> 
> I don't really mind if it is 1.2bar, 1.5bar etc, as long as I can use it when it is reasonably consistent. It's the pressure drop that gives me really awful milk!


 I always used to use mine at 0...


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## itguy

DavecUK said:


> I always used to use mine at 0...


 Good stuff, that's fine then. Mine is set to 0 now.

As I am pretty over-caffeinated today, I have just ran some tests.

Used a blind basket and did a 30 sec (lever up to lever down) shot, then moved over to steam, it was at 1bar, and stayed there pretty much for 1m 5 seconds. It did dip down to about 0.7bar then went back up again to 1bar (after 50 seconds, then got to 1bar after another 15 seconds).

Hopefully just eliminating the delay I was putting in between pulling the shot and then steaming will be enough to get my workflow in sync for the machine.


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## MediumRoastSteam

@itguy - unrelated: I see you managed to replace the steam wand with something less intrusive? Which wand is that?


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## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> @itguy - unrelated: I see you managed to replace the steam wand with something less intrusive? Which wand is that?


 You do mean the hot water wand, right? The steam wand seems to be stock with a little rubber thing on it. 🙂


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## MediumRoastSteam

Doram said:


> You do mean the hot water wand, right? The steam wand seems to be stock with a little rubber thing on it. 🙂


 Sorry, my bad. The hot water wand. 👍


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## itguy

Yep - simple rubber slip-over on the steam wand (not really required to be honest) and on the right, one of these: https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/Expobar-Straight-Water-Pipe-Complete-Chrome---30370080/m-2774.aspx

I slipped off the Lelit top collar/nut and replaced the plain brass one the expobar straight pipe comes with. Balls on the top of the pipes are exactly the same size, springs and collar works as straight swap. Much less intrusive!


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## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> Yep - simple rubber slip-over on the steam wand (not really required to be honest) and on the right, one of these: https://www.theespressoshop.co.uk/en/Expobar-Straight-Water-Pipe-Complete-Chrome---30370080/m-2774.aspx
> 
> I slipped off the Lelit top collar/nut and replaced the plain brass one the expobar straight pipe comes with. Balls on the top of the pipes are exactly the same size, springs and collar works as straight swap. Much less intrusive!


 I can see the MaraX is going somewhere. I always said this machine would be the one for me when:

- It would have the OPV returning back to the tank/circuit. ✅

- it would have a recessive hot water wand. ✅
- It would have a solenoid operated E61 group (like the minima).

So, one more feature to fulfil my wish list 🙂


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## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> - It would have the OPV returning back to the tank/circuit. ✅
> 
> - it would have a recessive hot water wand. ✅
> - It would have a solenoid operated E61 group (like the minima).
> 
> So, one more feature to fulfil my wish list 🙂


 What about flow control? Also ✅😉


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## itguy

Update...

Oh dear, still seem to be having issues here.

I am becoming more convinced there is something 'funny' going on with the steam boost on my machine. See video below.

This was taken after the machine has sat still for 30 mins. Coffee priority mode, temperature '1' today to try it.

Blind shot pulled for 30s from lever on to lever off, then steam straight away. Pressure drops to near zero!

On speaking to Bella Barista yesterday (v helpful and willing to do anything to help) they started to suggest that it might be water being over-soft and therefore the fill sensor not fully working as it should, thus boiler being over-full. I am going to get some Ashbeck this afternoon to try in it without the Lelit in tank filter.

For reference, my water at home is 183 TDS. I don't have the composition and only have a cheap electronic TDS meter.

Any other thoughts?


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## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> that it might be water being over-soft


 I doubt it. People here use Osmio Zero, and sometimes just remineralised with Sodium Bicarbonate. I doubt that's the issue. Otherwise you'd be seeing and noticing the boiler overfilling, wet steam, all sorts.

Question: Towards the end of your video the light on the left starts blinking, but not before. What does that mean?


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## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Question: Towards the end of your video the light on the left starts blinking, but not before. What does that mean?


 It is the 'warming up' light - not linked to the element being on, but the machine PID basically reporting that the user should wait because the machine is not up to temperature.

I can only assume it comes on when there is a really significant difference between the target temperature value and the actual.


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## Doram

itguy said:


> I am becoming more convinced there is something 'funny' going on with the steam boost on my machine. See video below.


 I tend to agree that something looks wrong in your videos. I turned my brew temp setting from 1 to 0, and really took my time after the shot (cleaned the basket and PF as I do, but slower , to see if I can replicate your issue. I came back to steam and the pressure was ~1.5 (very similar to what I normally have with brew temp setting 1). Kept the steam power with no issue.

In your second video your machine very quickly runs out of steam (literally). You started the steam right after the shot (so didn't give it time to build steaming pressure, not sure why you did that). I assume you didn't just ran out of water and this is why the heating elements didn't kick in, right? Did you send this video to BB? It would be interesting to hear what they find. Good luck with it, and please update when you know more.


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## itguy

Doram said:


> I tend to agree that something looks wrong in your videos. I turned my brew temp setting from 1 to 0, and really took my time after the shot (cleaned the basket and PF as I do, but slower , to see if I can replicate your issue. I came back to steam and the pressure was ~1.5 (very similar to what I normally have with brew temp setting 1). Kept the steam power with no issue.
> 
> In your second video your machine very quickly runs out of steam (literally). You started the steam right after the shot (so didn't give it time to build steaming pressure, not sure why you did that). I assume you didn't just ran out of water and this is why the heating elements didn't kick in, right? Did you send this video to BB? It would be interesting to hear what they find. Good luck with it, and please update when you know more.


 Thank you for trying to replicate with yours, all diagnostics help!

Why did I steam right after the shot? Well that was trying to use a workflow that would be brew, steam then clean everything up, and the pressure / steam boost should kick in when the brew is started I believe, so should have been building at least a bit during the pulling of the shot?

Tank had plenty of water in, no 'low water' light flashing etc.

Yes I sent it to BB and spoke to them on the phone, agreed that was v low steam pressure and something not happy.

I agreed to try Ashbeck water tonight/tomorrow after emptying the boiler via water wand when hot (and then refill with Ashbeck, then empty again, then refill).

I have just done that and I'm on warm up after now so need to leave it to settle a bit before trying anything else. I'll give it a go in a hour once all the temperatures have stabilised.


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## DavecUK

> 4 hours ago, itguy said:
> 
> Update...
> 
> Oh dear, still seem to be having issues here.
> 
> I am becoming more convinced there is something 'funny' going on with the steam boost on my machine. See video below.
> 
> This was taken after the machine has sat still for 30 mins. Coffee priority mode, temperature '1' today to try it.
> 
> Blind shot pulled for 30s from lever on to lever off, then steam straight away. Pressure drops to near zero!
> 
> On speaking to Bella Barista yesterday (v helpful and willing to do anything to help) they started to suggest that it might be water being over-soft and therefore the fill sensor not fully working as it should, thus boiler being over-full. I am going to get some Ashbeck this afternoon to try in it without the Lelit in tank filter.
> 
> For reference, my water at home is 183 TDS. I don't have the composition and only have a cheap electronic TDS meter.
> 
> Any other thoughts?


 If you pull a shot against the blind filter, it's quite likely that not enough cold water gets into the HX to drop the temperature and trigger the boost programming. It's sort of doing stuff that defeats the programming.


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## Doram

itguy said:


> Why did I steam right after the shot? Well that was trying to use a workflow that would be brew, steam then clean everything up, and the pressure / steam boost should kick in when the brew is started I believe, so should have been building at least a bit during the pulling of the shot?


 I think the time of a shot isn't long enough to get to steam pressure. I would give it at least a minute either before or after the shot to get up to steam pressure. (before: purge some water/steam/lift the lever -> then prepare coffee in basket, tamp etc. -> then brew and steam immediately after; or after: Brew a shot -> clean basket and PF -> then steam). In your second video you just do: brew -> steam, so you don't give the machine a chance to built steam pressure, which I think isn't how it is meant to work (and isn't how I use mine).

Also what @DavecUK said: do the experiment with coffee rather than a blind filter. Also try purging some steam/water and listen if the heating starts (it should, and does on mine).

I usually use Ashbeck as well, so that definitely should work, but I would be quite surprised if your issue will be solved by changing the water.


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## itguy

Ok - all brilliant points especially re the HX water temp drop and the trigger required. Hadn't thought of that.

for some reason I assumed there was a link to the lever microswitch rather than the pid using temp sensors as the steam boost trigger. Oops!

so in terms of triggering steam boost without pulling a shot, just crack open the steam wand and then wait a bit?

actually, I have a load of stale coffee I can try with, so I'll give that a go later.

Thanks for the tips


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## itguy

@Doram I am wondering if it would be possible for you to post up a video of you pulling a shot and steaming milk using your normal routine / timings for me? Coffee mode (X mode) and temp 0 ? - after leaving the machine on / to settle temperature-wise for about 30 mins?

A tall order I know, but might be useful for me to compare / replicate on my machine and for others as a decent working reference video too?


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## Doram

itguy said:


> @Doram I am wondering if it would be possible for you to post up a video of you pulling a shot and steaming milk using your normal routine / timings for me? Coffee mode (X mode) and temp 0 ? - after leaving the machine on / to settle temperature-wise for about 30 mins?
> 
> A tall order I know, but might be useful for me to compare / replicate on my machine and for others as a decent working reference video too?


 No problem, here you go - an unedited version from the beginning of a brew till the end of steaming. Machine is in coffee priority mode, temp setting 0, with OPV discharge re-use mod. You can see the boost to ~1.5, which is held while I clean my basket and steam:


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## itguy

Brilliant, thank you.

My first observation is that your machine started at a much higher boiler pressure than mine. If you just leave yours on for a while does it settle down to be more like 0.7 bar? I know it fluctuates on purpose to keep the group at the right heat, but I presume that the longer the machine is on the less it will fluctuate?

The reason I mention it is because mine has to boost more / has a lower starting pressure to boost from, so maybe I have just been a bit too impatient.

I have made two coffees this morning, 30 mins apart and they both worked as expected, with the pressure boosting up (to about 1.2bar) during and after the extraction. I paused a bit and could hear the heating element kicking in and out a few times and see the pressure rise accordingly and then when I steamed it did hold it just fine.

I suspect you and @DavecUK were right re blind basket - my mistake and sorry for misleading.

I will make another coffee mid morning and see how that goes. That is usually the one that causes most problems historically, but I will use exactly the same workflow as I have this morning and see what happens.

For reference (for anyone else reading/future notes), I am using Ashbeck water, have disconnected the Lelit filter and DO NOT have the OPV water mod in place at the moment, so the machine is stock/oem.


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> My first observation is that your machine started at a much higher boiler pressure than mine. If you just leave yours on for a while does it settle down to be more like 0.7 bar? I know it fluctuates on purpose to keep the group at the right heat, but I presume that the longer the machine is on the less it will fluctuate?


 It does fluctuate a bit, but not by much, I think. The point is - it doesn't matter: The temp is good for brewing (after the ~24 mins heating time and onwards), and the steam pressure is good after I do a shot and clean my PF and basket (and it doesn't matter if I do it quickly or slowly - it's not like I have to be accurate to catch an exact steaming window - it's just good whenever). It doesn't matter what the pressure starting point is, because it will boost to the same steam pressure. If you look at Dave's and Lelit's videos, you will understand that it is doing it by setting the PID target temps, so it doesn't matter if you started your shot at .7 or higher (providing you have no faults, of course).

I rarely even bother to look at the pressure gauge, because I don't need to and I don't care. For me, the gauge is there for when something isn't right so I just ignore it, but I think what you see in the video is typical of what I always get.


----------



## itguy

Great, thanks again.

I'll try and wait a bit longer when I do my next one a bit later on and see if my pressure will boost up fully to 1.5bar, I suspect it will, just like yours.

I'm becoming more convinced that the machine is ok and it is me who is just learning it or not adapting my workflow accordingly.

Assuming all goes well today I will then start to revert back to my prior machine state too, including the OPV water mod and then switching back to using my tap water with the Lelit filter.


----------



## itguy

Well, as predicted the coffee I have just made was perfect and my MaraX performed as by design.

I waited a bit longer between pulling the shot and then steaming. My machine was sat idling at 0.7 bar when I walked up to it. I pulled the shot (no real increase in boiler pressure whilst pulling the shot), then it gently climbed after, up to just under 1.5bar. I then purged the steam wand, pressure down to 1.2bar but then started steaming. It held nicely at 1.2bar until I finished steaming a large pitcher and then climbed to 1.5bar after.

Will put back the OPV mod later tonight but keep using Ashbeck for a little while.

Thanks for all the help.


----------



## djrustycans

DavecUK said:


> How much milk and for how long are you steaming when this happens.....Is the autofill kicking in?
> 
> I'm also wondering if lifting the lever momentarily actually does enough to kick it into steam mode, but from memory it always seemed fine on mine. in fact when I opened the steam valve it would start boosting the pressure. I do have to recommission MaraX soon as I need to test some new stuff on her...so I will also have a closer look at this. Seems strange that it's random?


 Sorry - I didn't see your reply! Thanks for your response. I'm new to this forum and presumed I'd see an email notification if there was any thread activity!

I'm having persistent problems with the steam pressure dropping down to unusable levels.

I've been pulling the shots prior to steaming for the past couple of weeks and as before, everything is fine for the first use after switch on. Even for back to back drinks x2 it usually is ok.

If the machine is left on for an hour or two during the morning, whenever I go to steam (within 40 secs of pulling a shot), I regularly get a rapid drop in steam pressure down from 1.5 bar to below 0.75 before the milk is ready. This behaviour happens more often than not.

Interestingly, I find the erratic behaviour persists even if the machine has been switched off after round 1 and switched back on, mid-morning.

I am steaming a reasonable amount of milk - around 370 ml but surely doing one or two drinks like this shouldn't be too strenuous. The water tank is always well filled too.

I've noticed that this sudden drop in pressure often coincides with the pump kicking in - is this a hint as to what may be going wrong? It does appear as though it's a fault in the machine trying to be clever in BTP. I seemed to get much more consistent pressure without problems when using STP.

Would appreciate your thoughts but after a period of testing - I surely need to go back to B.B with my findings.


----------



## DavecUK

djrustycans said:


> I've noticed that this sudden drop in pressure often coincides with the pump kicking in - is this a hint as to what may be going wrong? It does appear as though it's a fault in the machine trying to be clever in BTP. I seemed to get much more consistent pressure without problems when using STP.
> 
> Would appreciate your thoughts but after a period of testing - I surely need to go back to B.B with my findings.


 This is because the boiler is auto filling, *during that process the heating elements switch of, cold water is introduced into the boiler, steam pressure drops.* It shouldn't happen by chance that often unless you are using the tap a lot to draw water and heat cups and just by bad luck stopping just before it needs to autofill. If potentially on the cusp of needing to fill, steaming will probably cause a fill, especially a good long steam.. It sounds like you have a usage pattern that by serendipity, causes it to happen more often than usual.

As I have already explained, machines overfill a certain number of seconds to prevent the probe being exposed every few seconds, causing multiple small continuous refills. Not great for steaming. The overfill usually means you can steam for more than long enough. At some point though i's going to need to fill.

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55935-mara-x-second-shot-steam-performance-in-x-mode/?do=embed&comment=799572&embedComment=799572&embedDo=findComment

If you want to guarantee this will never happen when steaming simply draw a tiny amount of water 30ml and it should kick off an autofill. Then do your espresso and steam after.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

Or... if you don't hear the machine auto-filling before your coffee prep purge the steam wand well and enough so it triggers an auto fill drawing water will effectively have the same effect, and it's better in a way. Wait until pressure builds up again and off you go. The Elizabeth doesn't have a pressure gauge so I don't have such "problems". 😉


----------



## djrustycans

Appreciate the advice DaveC/MRS, I will bear this in mind tomorrow morning - hopefully with better results!


----------



## djrustycans

Soooo.... I know it's a Christmas Eve and all but....

I made 2 lattes today after the machine had been on for 2-3 hours since the first coffees of the day.

The pressure was as expected when idle sat fairly low (below 1 bar) so I purged the steam wand for at least 10 seconds and let the steam pressure rise, then pulled a shot. I immediately started to steam after the shot and the steam pressure started to drop again below 1 bar and screech. I stopped steaming and let the pressure rise to over 1 bar again and was able to finish steaming. The texture is never as good after the interruption - too many air bubbles.

Straight onto the next coffee and pulled the shot - steam pressure was good (1.5 ish) and same thing, the steam pressure started to drop below acceptable levels before the milk was hot enough. Had to stop and wait for the pressure to rise again.

Am I being stupid or is something amiss?!!

Thanks (Merry Christmas!)

Dave


----------



## itguy

Just in terms of checking you are aware of how the machine is designed to work (not being patronising);

The PID detects when you need the steam boost function from looking at the temperature sensors the PID has access to - one at the top of the boiler and one on the bottom of the HX. If the HX shows a sudden drop in water temp (by pulling a shot) this will trigger the steam boost function to run. It will then run this boost function for a number of seconds afterwards.

My understanding is that just purging the steam wand will mean that the steam boost function will not be enabled but the pressure will rise to recover boiler temperature. This might appear like steam boost but it isn't.

So, the next time you walk up to the machine, try just doing your shot first (leave the steam alone) and then afterwards watch what happens to the boiler pressure. It should rise over the course of the next minute or so (nice time to clean the puck from the PF) and then purge the wand. Wait for the steam to re-pressurise a little then go for your steaming.

You should find you can steam 400+ml of milk without issue like this.

Worth a try to start with.

Just for info as well, when I wanted to just steam today (making hot choc), I did a quick 3 sec flush on the E61 and then that triggered the steam boost no problem.


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Just in terms of checking you are aware of how the machine is designed to work (not being patronising);
> 
> The PID detects when you need the steam boost function from looking at the temperature sensors the PID has access to - one at the top of the boiler and one on the bottom of the HX. If the HX shows a sudden drop in water temp (by pulling a shot) this will trigger the steam boost function to run. It will then run this boost function for a number of seconds afterwards.
> 
> My understanding is that just purging the steam wand will mean that the steam boost function will not be enabled but the pressure will rise to recover boiler temperature. This might appear like steam boost but it isn't.
> 
> So, the next time you walk up to the machine, try just doing your shot first (leave the steam alone) and then afterwards watch what happens to the boiler pressure. It should rise over the course of the next minute or so (nice time to clean the puck from the PF) and then purge the wand. Wait for the steam to re-pressurise a little then go for your steaming.
> 
> You should find you can steam 400+ml of milk without issue like this.
> 
> Worth a try to start with.
> 
> Just for info as well, when I wanted to just steam today (making hot choc), I did a quick 3 sec flush on the E61 and then that triggered the steam boost no problem.


 Don't worry - not patronising at all! I've just had mixed results.

I just want to make sure I get to the point where there are no surprises with the loss of steam pressure!

I'll give your tips a try over Christmas - thanks so much, have a good one!


----------



## djrustycans

Still getting extremely frustrating and random results with the Mara X.

Here's another prime example of what I'm experiencing:

Coming back to the machine which had been switched on for a couple of hours - with the steam pressure idle at 0.75, I ran water through the group (30-60ml) to kick in the pressure increase and also purged the steam wand for a few seconds.

The pressure increased to 1.5 bar and this time I did steam first. After getting part way through the steaming the pressure dropped down to 0.5 bar. At this point, I stopped and waited for the pressure to rise again whilst also pulling a shot.

After this process, I finished off steaming the milk which took only a few seconds.

The pressure was now at 1.5 bar minimum so I decided to steam the milk for the second drink and the same thing happened!

Pressure dropped right down to unworkable levels, so had to stop mid-steaming and pull a shot, then finish milk afterwards.

This can't be right? I feel like I've tried every single possibility including Dave C's advice to guarantee the boiler not refilling whilst steaming by running 30ml of water through the group prior to pulling shots/steaming.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

djrustycans said:


> This can't be right?


 I don't have this machine. But my understanding is that it has an algorithm which tried to keep brew temp stable and ready, as much as possible, whist also allowing steaming to be good. You need to work with the algorithm, and not against it. Follow the advice of other owners here and see what they are doing. If you are doing exactly the same as them and your is behaving differently, then yeah, something is not right.


----------



## djrustycans

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I don't have this machine. But my understanding is that it has an algorithm which tried to keep brew temp stable and ready, as much as possible, whist also allowing steaming to be good. You need to work with the algorithm, and not against it. Follow the advice of other owners here and see what they are doing. If you are doing exactly the same as them and your is behaving differently, then yeah, something is not right.


 Thanks - I have literally tried every method I can think of. Surely if steam pressure is up, that should be indication enough that it's ready for action. From a fresh switch on - it works as expected. But something goes amiss if you like to leave the machine on for an hour or two before the next drink....


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

djrustycans said:


> Thanks - I have literally tried every method I can think of. Surely if steam pressure is up, that should be indication enough that it's ready for action. From a fresh switch on - it works as expected. But something goes amiss if you like to leave the machine on for an hour or two before the next drink....


 Does the same happen if you make a coffee and then steam? I.e.;

- walk up to idle machine;
- no flushing;
- make a coffee;
- let pressure go to about 1.3 bar;
- purge steam wand;
- steam milk.

does that work? I know that MaraX owners refer to "wake up" the steam boiler by quickly flushing the group, but I don't know when or why that's required. Anyway, trying to help, but realise that not having the machine myself will be a hard thing to do. I've seen the machine, had coffee from it, and all was good.


----------



## Ilias

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Does the same happen if you make a coffee and then steam? I.e.;
> 
> - walk up to idle machine;
> - no flushing;
> - make a coffee;
> - let pressure go to about 1.3 bar;
> - purge steam wand;
> - steam milk.
> 
> does that work? I know that MaraX owners refer to "wake up" the steam boiler by quickly flushing the group, but I don't know when or why that's required. Anyway, trying to help, but realise that not having the machine myself will be a hard thing to do. I've seen the machine, had coffee from it, and all was good.


 This works (I was doing that in the past)

I lately follow a slightly different regime that also works:

- walk up to idle machine;
- purge steam wand --> boiler kicks
- make a coffee (shortly after purging the steam wand);
- let pressure go to about 1.3 bar;
- purge steam wand (just a short purge this time);
- steam milk.


----------



## Doram

djrustycans said:


> Coming back to the machine which had been switched on for a couple of hours - with the steam pressure idle at 0.75, I ran water through the group (30-60ml) to kick in the pressure increase and also purged the steam wand for a few seconds.


 Not sure if this is it, but I don't think you ever need to purge 30-60 ml of water from the group, nor do you need to purge the steam wand "for a few seconds" with Mara X. A quick purge (like half a second of the group), or a quick purge of the steam wand (a second should be enough) - would 'wake' the heating element and start the cycle of heating the machine to steam pressure. My understanding is that the 'wake up' happens because the PID detects a change in temperature caused by the purge. It is very sensitive, and you need very little to start this cycle.

However, if you do long purges (like 30-60 ml of water), you are lowering the pressure in the boiler and introducing cold water. This messes with the cleverness of the machine, essentially working against it. I think other people who experienced a similar issue to yours found that it was solved when they understood how the machine works and stopped whatever it was they did that interfered with it. The Mara X did away with the need for cooling flushes, so just don't do them.

I found that there are two ways to do a shot or two with no fuss and no issue with steam power:

Option 1*:- Brew -> Clean -> Steam *(my preferred option)
1. Let machine heat up and settle at ~0.7 bar.
2. Walk up and brew with no prior flush/purge. (Lifting the lever to begin the first shot will wake the heating element and begin the heating for steam cycle). (if you want, make more than one shot, it doesn't matter).
3. Now clean the PF and basket (if you want, purge water to get coffee off the shower screen with a PF wiggle, but only a short purge, say up to one second, not a long cooling flush). While you are cleaning (say a minute or two), the machine will get to ~1.5 bar of pressure. Reminder - don't purge the group for more than a second or two.
4. Steam your milk, poor and enjoy.

*Option 2: Wake -> Prepare PF -> Brew/Steam -> Clean*
1. Let machine heat up and settle at ~0.7 bar.
2. Wake the heating element (by purging either the group for half a second or the steam wand for a second. No more than that is needed. You will hear the heating element kick in).
3. Now prepare your coffee. Fill the basket, level, tamp - whatever you do (but do it in a minute, not half an hour ).
4. Now the machine is at 1.5 bar, so you can steam and immediately brew, or brew and immediately steam, or steam and brew at the same time - they all work. The only thing with this method is that you need to brew within about 5 minutes from waking the heating element (stage 2), before the group gets too hot. Poor your milk and enjoy. 
5. Clean the PF and basket.

I prefer option 1, because - a) I want to finish cleaning before I drink the coffee; b) I don't want to worry about finishing my shots before the group gets too hot for brewing (never an issue for one shot, probably not even for two shots, but still).


----------



## djrustycans

Hi guys,

I'm regularly having steam lose pressure using these methods. It's seemingly random. Most of the problems are stemming from it being idle. There seems to be an issue with the steam pressure staying consistent after usage from idle. I've tried:

1. Flushing water through group (30ml)

2. Just momentarily lifting group lever

3. Purging steam wand for a few secs

4. Walking up and pulling a shot first

5. Steaming first, then shot

In all these cases, I've waited for the pressure to rise over 1.3 bar before steaming and the pressure often drops!!


----------



## djrustycans

Doram said:


> Not sure if this is it, but I don't think you ever need to purge 30-60 ml of water from the group, nor do you need to purge the steam wand "for a few seconds" with Mara X. A quick purge (like half a second of the group), or a quick purge of the steam wand (a second should be enough) - would 'wake' the heating element and start the cycle of heating the machine to steam pressure. My understanding is that the 'wake up' happens because the PID detects a change in temperature caused by the purge. It is very sensitive, and you need very little to start this cycle.
> 
> However, if you do long purges (like 30-60 ml of water), you are lowering the pressure in the boiler and introducing cold water. This messes with the cleverness of the machine, essentially working against it. I think other people who experienced a similar issue to yours found that it was solved when they understood how the machine works and stopped whatever it was they did that interfered with it. The Mara X did away with the need for cooling flushes, so just don't do them.
> 
> I found that there are two ways to do a shot or two with no fuss and no issue with steam power:
> 
> Option 1*:- Brew -> Clean -> Steam *(my preferred option)
> 1. Let machine heat up and settle at ~0.7 bar.
> 2. Walk up and brew with no prior flush/purge. (Lifting the lever to begin the first shot will wake the heating element and begin the heating for steam cycle). (if you want, make more than one shot, it doesn't matter).
> 3. Now clean the PF and basket (if you want, purge water to get coffee off the shower screen with a PF wiggle, but only a short purge, say up to one second, not a long cooling flush). While you are cleaning (say a minute or two), the machine will get to ~1.5 bar of pressure. Reminder - don't purge the group for more than a second or two.
> 4. Steam your milk, poor and enjoy.
> 
> *Option 2: Wake -> Prepare PF -> Brew/Steam -> Clean*
> 1. Let machine heat up and settle at ~0.7 bar.
> 2. Wake the heating element (by purging either the group for half a second or the steam wand for a second. No more than that is needed. You will hear the heating element kick in).
> 3. Now prepare your coffee. Fill the basket, level, tamp - whatever you do (but do it in a minute, not half an hour ).
> 4. Now the machine is at 1.5 bar, so you can steam and immediately brew, or brew and immediately steam, or steam and brew at the same time - they all work. The only thing with this method is that you need to brew within about 5 minutes from waking the heating element (stage 2), before the group gets too hot. Poor your milk and enjoy.
> 5. Clean the PF and basket.
> 
> I prefer option 1, because - a) I want to finish cleaning before I drink the coffee; b) I don't want to worry about finishing my shots before the group gets too hot for brewing (never an issue for one shot, probably not even for two shots, but still).


 Thanks for this!

It's definitely something to do with the cleverness of the machine but it performs fine when the machine starts up in the morning. It all goes wrong when left for a while.

I only started messing about with cooling flush etc. because I found the behaviour to be erratic when starting from idle.

I'll have another try (option 1!) without any flushing/purges in the morning and see if I can crack it.

Appreciate the advice!


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

djrustycans said:


> Thanks for this!
> 
> It's definitely something to do with the cleverness of the machine but it performs fine when the machine starts up in the morning. It all goes wrong when left for a while.
> 
> I only started messing about with cooling flush etc. because I found the behaviour to be erratic when starting from idle.
> 
> I'll have another try (option 1!) without any flushing/purges in the morning and see if I can crack it.
> 
> Appreciate the advice!


 Think @Jason11 leaves his on all day. I went to his house once, in the summer, and he made two lattes no problems what so ever. He just walked up to the machine and made two drinks. 😊 - maybe he knows the trick?


----------



## djrustycans

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Think @Jason11 leaves his on all day. I went to his house once, in the summer, and he made two lattes no problems what so ever. He just walked up to the machine and made two drinks. 😊 - maybe he knows the trick?


 Maybe I've just got a duffer?! It can't be that hard to make a bloody latte 😆


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

djrustycans said:


> Maybe I've just got a duffer?! It can't be that hard to make a bloody latte 😆


 I agree. There's a video of a Mauro from Lelit making a latte.

try doing the same.

here:

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/55935-mara-x-second-shot-steam-performance-in-x-mode/?do=embed&comment=799582&embedComment=799582&embedDo=findComment


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Hi guys,
> 
> I'm regularly having steam lose pressure using these methods. It's seemingly random. Most of the problems are stemming from it being idle. There seems to be an issue with the steam pressure staying consistent after usage from idle. I've tried:
> 
> 1. Flushing water through group (30ml)
> 
> 2. Just momentarily lifting group lever
> 
> 3. Purging steam wand for a few secs
> 
> 4. Walking up and pulling a shot first
> 
> 5. Steaming first, then shot
> 
> In all these cases, I've waited for the pressure to rise over 1.3 bar before steaming and the pressure often drops!!


 Let's just go back to basics a little here with the HX design of the machine.

Flushing water through the group does not put cold water into the boiler. It puts cold water into the HX tube which is heated by the temperature of the water in the boiler. This will make the boiler water slightly cooler, but this is different to actually putting cold water into the boiler.

The way you can ensure the boiler has the max water in it is to pull a little water out of the hot water tap - not the group. This lowers the water level in the boiler, the pump will top it back up with water and then the PID will heat it up.

So - @djrustycans, if you try pulling a small amount of water out of the hot water wand just so the pump kicks in before you do anything with the machine and then see what happens with a normal (no flush) workflow and see what happens.

The only time I have seen my MaraX really lose steam pressure below 1bar is if the pump kicks in mid-steaming - introducing cold water into the boiler.


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

I'm getting confused between these two threads... very similar...

https://www.coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/56880-mara-x-steam-issue/page/2/?tab=comments&do=embed&comment=803514&embedComment=803514&embedDo=findComment#comment-803514

I virtually said what @itguy just said above, but in the other thread... I was just unable to find my post here... and then. Realised there are two threads going on! 😂


----------



## Doram

itguy said:


> The only time I have seen my MaraX really lose steam pressure below 1bar is if the pump kicks in mid-steaming - introducing cold water into the boiler.


 Agreed. This (pump kicking in mid steaming) never happened to me in over six months of ownership. I might be extremely lucky, but it doesn't seem right that this is happening all the time, or even often (I think @DavecUK also said it's rare). If it is happening often, I would think either something is wrong with the machine, or something in the workflow induces it, no?


----------



## Doram

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I virtually said what @itguy just said above, but in the other thread... I was just unable to find my post here... and then. Realised there are two threads going on! 😂


 Maybe this is why both threads are running out of steam? 🤣


----------



## itguy

Doram said:


> Agreed. This (pump kicking in mid steaming) never happened to me in over six months of ownership. I might be extremely lucky, but it doesn't seem right that this is happening all the time, or even often (I think @DavecUK also said it's rare). If it is happening often, I would think either something is wrong with the machine, or something in the workflow induces it, no?


 Possibly - or maybe Lelit have different versions of the auto fill programming in the PID or maybe slightly different length low water probes that they have fitted over time ?

I'd be very interested to see if we are all running the same version of the PID software, as an example.

I do get the pump filling my boiler reasonably regularly whilst steaming but it is usually right towards the end of the steaming so it doesn't affect things too much.

@DavecUK I wonder if a shorter or longer low water probe would help here? (Too late in the day for my brain to figure it out...). Think a slightly longer one, giving more steam capacity in the boiler?


----------



## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> I'm getting confused between these two threads...


 Yes!!

I wonder if one of the mods wants to try to combine them somehow - given they contain very similar issues / experiences?

Taming the MaraX does seem a little bit of a black art at the moment !

What is worth saying though is that is makes excellent coffee when it is firing on all cylinders (machine and operator!)


----------



## MediumRoastSteam

itguy said:


> @DavecUK I wonder if a shorter or longer low water probe would help here? (Too late in the day for my brain to figure it out...). Think a slightly longer one, giving more steam capacity in the boiler?


 Won't solve any of the issues here though.


----------



## itguy

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Won't solve any of the issues here though.


 My hypothesis was trying to see if there was a way that the MaraX could have just slightly more steam capacity, therefore not auto fill during a long steam session - but if the PID programming is set to overfill the low water sensor by X and then kick back in when the sensor is triggered again (this must be how it works) then I can see how what I suggest may not help.

It's just like the PID needs to auto fill by just a fraction longer perhaps?


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Let's just go back to basics a little here with the HX design of the machine.
> 
> Flushing water through the group does not put cold water into the boiler. It puts cold water into the HX tube which is heated by the temperature of the water in the boiler. This will make the boiler water slightly cooler, but this is different to actually putting cold water into the boiler.
> 
> The way you can ensure the boiler has the max water in it is to pull a little water out of the hot water tap - not the group. This lowers the water level in the boiler, the pump will top it back up with water and then the PID will heat it up.
> 
> So - @djrustycans, if you try pulling a small amount of water out of the hot water wand just so the pump kicks in before you do anything with the machine and then see what happens with a normal (no flush) workflow and see what happens.
> 
> The only time I have seen my MaraX really lose steam pressure below 1bar is if the pump kicks in mid-steaming - introducing cold water into the boiler.


 Often, it is the pump kicking in which causes it. Not the short burst which happens periodically when the machine is idle but a longer stint. It feels like whatever I try, I cannot prevent this happening (what appears to be) randomly.


----------



## itguy

djrustycans said:


> Often, it is the pump kicking in which causes it. Not the short burst which happens periodically when the machine is idle but a longer stint. It feels like whatever I try, I cannot prevent this happening (what appears to be) randomly.


 Have you tried pulling water from the hot water wand until the pump kicks in then stopping, then brewing etc ?


----------



## djrustycans

Doram said:


> Agreed. This (pump kicking in mid steaming) never happened to me in over six months of ownership. I might be extremely lucky, but it doesn't seem right that this is happening all the time, or even often (I think @DavecUK also said it's rare). If it is happening often, I would think either something is wrong with the machine, or something in the workflow induces it, no?


 This is happening every day but generally not after first switch on which would possibly suggest it's not all my fault!!


----------



## djrustycans

itguy said:


> Have you tried pulling water from the hot water wand until the pump kicks in then stopping, then brewing etc ?


 No.... But I will! I've barely used the hot water wand because I have a Quooker tap 😜


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## itguy

djrustycans said:


> No.... But I will! I've barely used the hot water wand because I have a Quooker tap 😜


 Nice !

well it's worth a go. I will do the same tomorrow too. I don't usually do anything other than just use it, but sometimes even now it does tail off in terms of steam pressure - but only when the boiler fill kicks in.


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## MediumRoastSteam

djrustycans said:


> No.... But I will! I've barely used the hot water wand because I have a Quooker tap 😜


 It's a good thing to draw some water from the tap now and again to recycle the water from the boiler.


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## djrustycans

So.....

First thing today, steaming was fairly predictable.

1. Brew>steam immediately, no problem.

2. Clean PF>Grind>Brew>Steam - just about got away with it but pressure was starting to back off towards the end.

I then kept the machine on for 2-3 hours and coming back to it, the pressure was lying at 1 bar. To kick it into action, I purged the hot water wand (60 ml) and the boiler fired with the steam pressure rising to 1.5 - 2 bar.

This time I decided to do:

1. Steam>brew, no problems.

2. Clean PF>Grind>Steam>Brew

By the time I came to do round 2 of steaming, the pressure was still around 1.5 - 2 bar. Half way through steaming, the pressure began to drop and as it went below 1 bar, the boiler refill kicked in and the pressure continued to drop down to 0.5!!

I've tried that many things now - I'm getting confused. Will have to start a daily journal 😩


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## DavecUK

One thing to remember about MaraX and it's critical you remember this!

It has last full shot protection (as I remember), so it won't autofill during a shot...implications



If the cool water entering the HX during a shot chills the boiler down enough water contracts, probe tip "may" get exposed if it's on the cusp and* heating element will not kick in until shot ends. *Impact on shot temp nil...impact on steaming = yes.


If it did number 1 above, then the steam boost will take a while after the shot completes. If that period is a little too long do to the amount of cool water introduced and it happening close to the beginning of say a 40s shot...then the steam boost may start to ramp down part way through steaming.


*It shouldn't happen very often, but it can happen. If you find it autofills at the end of a long shot...just before you start to steam, blip the pump to ensure the heaters remain ramped up. I probably do it without thinking about it.*


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