# Double espresso - 'numbers' for a newbie



## almad77b

Hi all

I'm brand new to the forums as a poster from today but I have been reading for a few weeks and seem to have perhaps picked up some conflicting, maybe even wrong info but I thought I'd post my technique in as much detail as possible to seek anywhere I may be going wrong.

My intro thread provides a wee bit more background - http://coffeeforums.co.uk/showthread.php?13383-Hello-from-Scotland-(Glasgow)

So I'm using a Fracino Cherub and Mahlkonig Vario Grinder, I may be doing this all wrong and I'm happy to be corrected in any area, please.

My wife is first up in the morning and switches on the machine so it's on easily for 30 minutes before I go near it.

Portafilter is in place warming up with double basket inserted.

After I've made the kids breakfast, I'll kick off.

Warm the cups with some water, put to one side.

I'm using the Vario on grind length of 10s, which delivers approx 14g into my double basket - is 14g right for a double espresso (which becomes a latte)?

After the grind I try to distribute as best I can using the flat handle-end of a scoop that came with the machine. I then tamp (motta tamper) using my fingers on the base of the tamper to ensure a relatively flat puck, polish off the puck.

Purge the group head and wipe it clean, slot the PF back in and flick the switch, which begins a pour into two of these (2 oz lined shot glass http://www.espressounderground.co.uk/coffee%20accessories.html#Shot_Pots).

I reckon the line on each is probably about equivalent to about 25ml.

So just to recap I have 14g of coffee and end up with about 50-60ml of liquid in about 23s.

How do those numbers sound?

I think the taste varies quiet a bit even when I try to be consistent in my approach. I try to look for blonde spots on the crema but these don't really appear before I reach the line on the shot glasses.

Another issue I have is that almost all of the crema stays in the shot glass when I've transferred it to my cup, anything I can do to avoid this?

I'll try and post some pics but any help would be hugely appreciated.

thanks

Anthony


----------



## The Systemic Kid

Anthony, 50-60ml from a dose of 14grm is way off. Suggest you up the dose to 16grms or more and aim to extract 1.5 times your dose in around 27secs. Don't bother about the crema - concentrate on extraction.


----------



## almad77b

Wow so that really is way off then.

Just to to be clear then, I should grind about 16g of coffee. I'd then zero my scales on an empty shot glass, pull my shot over approx 27s and when done I want my scales to show approx 24g? Am I understanding you correctly?

thank you


----------



## Charliej

almad77b said:


> Wow so that really is way off then.
> 
> Just to to be clear then, I should grind about 16g of coffee. I'd then zero my scales on an empty shot glass, pull my shot over approx 27s and when done I want my scales to show approx 24g? Am I understanding you correctly?
> 
> thank you


Yes and you must lose any thoughts about the volume of the shots as when weighing input and output the volume of the shot becomes irrelevant.


----------



## almad77b

Thanks charliej.

The first thing that springs to (my novice) mind in that case is how will I know when to stop to achieve a weight of 24g if I'm not using volume (in a cup) as a visual indicator?


----------



## garydyke1

Pour the shot into the cup which is sat on the scales.

Kill the pump when the scales read 22g and see what the lag is , adjust next time if need be.

Note the time it took you to reach 24g , and all being repeated exactly the next time just go by time


----------



## almad77b

Ahh superb Gary, I hadn't thought about putting the scales under the cup whilst pouring. I feel a bit stupid now!

Off to to try it out, will report back...

thanks a million guys.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Measuring by extraction by weight worked for me too. It massively improved my shots when I was starting out. Keep us posted on how you get on.


----------



## urbanbumpkin

Ps try to keep the scales from getting wet.


----------



## 4085

It just takes time! You need to remember, that if you grind fine, then the tamp is less important, as a means pf packing the grind into the basket. The Vario should not really clump at all, do if you are continuing to stir, knows as the WDT technique (google it) then perhaps something finer like a cocktail stick would be better. On my grinder, i do not really tamp at all, other than to push the mound down and polish it. The main thing is to be consistent with your approach. Then you can tweek one variable at a time.


----------



## Mrboots2u

At some point a naked PF can be handy in seeing where any distribution errors are and helping you correct them...


----------



## almad77b

thanks guys, bit of a mental day yesterday so never got time to reply.

I have a problem with my 9 quid scales in that they are not very accurate and are probably too large to sit on the shelf under the PF.

I did get closer but I just cant trust the scales as they were jumping around all over the place, e.g. I stopped the pour at approx 23g, it would go onto to register 27g, then jump back down to 24, long after the pour had finished. I suspect it was because they were hanging off the shelf and any slight movement was altering the read.

So where can I buy decent but not ridiculously priced scales?


----------



## Daren

I use these.... V cheap and seem to do a good job for the money

http://pages.ebay.com/link/?nav=item.view&id=130976690910


----------



## Mrboots2u

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/0-01-g-100-GRAMS-DIGITAL-POCKET-MINI-COIN-WEIGHING-SCALES-JEWELRY-GOLD-SILVER-/231107959011

£5 eBay , others are available .....


----------



## Daren

Great minds boots! Mine are cheaper


----------



## garydyke1

100 gram limit is poor . 300 FTW


----------



## Daren

I suppose the 100g limit is only an issue depending on what you use them for. For me weighing in my beans, the grind output and then the shot output (in anything up to an 8oz cup) they have been great. No problems whatsoever.

If your using them for brewed then the limit may be more of an issue.


----------



## kikapu

These;

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/833105C-Electronic-Digital-Pocket-Gold-Jewellery-Weighing-Weight-Scale-1kg-0-1g-/271240982341?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item3f2738ef45

or these

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151067184567?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Both take higher weight and not much more in cost


----------



## garydyke1

kikapu said:


> These;
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/833105C-Electronic-Digital-Pocket-Gold-Jewellery-Weighing-Weight-Scale-1kg-0-1g-/271240982341?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item3f2738ef45
> 
> or these
> 
> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/151067184567?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649
> 
> Both take higher weight and not much more in cost


+1 for the bottom link. They have taken a battering and still the original battery is strong! accurate to 0.01g and zero latency


----------



## almad77b

Thanks again guys, new scales ordered.

I'm having a bit of a 'mare tonight. I. bought new beans from a very reputable shop in Glasgow today (Papercup), I also had a wonderful espresso in the shop so set about trying to mimic it at home.

I measured out about 16-18g, done all the usual stuff and poured to get to about 26g in the cup and it took about 14s. My vario was at about 2L, I stepped through various increments all the way down to about 2B but the longest pour time I can get for 26-28g in the cup is about 16s even after stepping the grinder way down.

I had it at about 2F a few days ago, albeit with a different bean and it was choking, any ideas what is going on?

BTW my first or second pour even at 14s tasted great, very like the one from the shop but subsequent pours haven't been as nice.


----------



## Mrboots2u

What's the roast date on the beans?


----------



## almad77b

It just says

roast date: best within two weeks, although enjoy for up to two months

Thankyou.


----------



## jeebsy

I'd expect beans from Papercup to be pretty fresh. Can you go finer?


----------



## almad77b

Guys I've just realised I'm adjusting whilst the grinder is not running, been looking at a few videos and they reckon this is bad, could I have gubbed my grinder?


----------



## jeebsy

Nah unlikely, is it making any weird noises? It's best to adjust when running to prevent the burrs touching and to stop beans getting jammed between the burrs when you go finer but you'd know by the sound if that was an issue.


----------



## almad77b

Ok thanks jeebsy, I've just cleaned the hopper out and removed the top burr, reassembled and ran it dry. No strange noises, thankfully.

Ill start again in the morning. I'm also going to try and attend the barista skills courses either with funinacup or at Papercup.

Are there any good videos which demonstrate this method of weighing the grinds, then weighing the brewed coffee, I think I'm doing it correctly, but it'd be good to have a visual reference.

Thanks to everyone for their patience and contributions.


----------



## jeebsy

Are you weighing how much comes out the grinder too?


----------



## craig01nire

Sorry to somewhat hijack the thread but I think I do have a relevant question.

I kind of understand that weight in and weight out are the best way to measure your shots. my question is really to do with the different terms, ie ristretto, espresso, double etc. - using a standard double basket on a gaggia I am getting 26g from 16.5g in around 27 -30s this would get me somewhere between 22-30ml - or somewhere between single ristretto and single espresso on a lined shot glass.

Am I technically pulling a ristretto/single espresso using a double basket? And generally, if I hit the target of 26g in 27-30 secs, am I going to ruin the shot if I keep pulling it to get a larger volume?

I ask because I've been adding the 26g output to around 6oz steamed milk and while it's tasting ok, the coffee is getting kind of lost (rave fudge beans which apparently is at its best in milk). Is the answer a bigger basket and bigger dose therefore bigger output?


----------



## scottcolfer

Hi Anthony, looks like you've received loads of good advice already but just in case it's useful here's my method for a double espresso: http://beanmeupscotty.com/2013/12/03/espresso-at-home/


----------



## ronsil

Is that what you do for espresso, 18 grams in with 60 grams out.? Thats allowing to produce an awful lot of liquid.(espresso).

Most folk on here find 18 grams in with 24.-30 grams out max in 25-30 seconds produces the best result.


----------



## Mrboots2u

craig01nire said:


> Sorry to somewhat hijack the thread but I think I do have a relevant question.
> 
> I kind of understand that weight in and weight out are the best way to measure your shots. my question is really to do with the different terms, ie ristretto, espresso, double etc. - using a standard double basket on a gaggia I am getting 26g from 16.5g in around 27 -30s this would get me somewhere between 22-30ml - or somewhere between single ristretto and single espresso on a lined shot glass.
> 
> Am I technically pulling a ristretto/single espresso using a double basket? And generally, if I hit the target of 26g in 27-30 secs, am I going to ruin the shot if I keep pulling it to get a larger volume?
> 
> I ask because I've been adding the 26g output to around 6oz steamed milk and while it's tasting ok, the coffee is getting kind of lost (rave fudge beans which apparently is at its best in milk). Is the answer a bigger basket and bigger dose therefore bigger output?


 Or less milk ...... I usually have espresso in a 5 -6 oz cup. Fudge is good in milk ,but it isn't what I would call an overpowering taste in milk. It's subtle and sweet. Perhaps it's just your looking for something different in terms of taste I your milk drinks.

My advice is also not to judge shots by weight and volume. Aim for an output weight , don't think about the ounces that produces it counter productive to using weight as a measurement. 16 g in 24 g out would be enough for me in a 5-6 oz milk drink . But tastes differ.


----------



## Mrboots2u

ronsil said:


> Is that what you do for espresso, 18 grams in with 60 grams out.? Thats allowing to produce an awful lot of liquid.(espresso).
> 
> Most folk on here find 18 grams in with 24.-30 grams out max in 25-30 seconds produces the best result.


18 grams in 60g out is beyond lungo. I suspect that may be a function of the grinder being used , as I haven't come. Across many £40 out the box grinders that will do espresso . I could be wrong though.


----------



## coffeechap

Scott

"Hi Anthony, looks like you've received loads of good advice already but just in case it's useful here's my method for a double espresso: http://beanmeupscotty.com/2013/12/03/espresso-at-home/"

Your advice contradicts the training that you had! They trained you on 20g in with an output of 30g yet you are doing 18g in with an output of 60g, certainly not sound advice for correctly espressed espresso! You also refer to the training as a single shot, well 20 g of coffee is airing on the side of a triple shot, I think you might want to re-write your advice.

Also regardless of how many shots of coffee you have in a day the grinder is really important and the justification of saying you only have one shot so can't justify any further expense, why bother at all as surely you want that one shot to be as good as it possibly can and without tying to sound rude, the grinder you have just won't cut the mustard, I also hate to point out that the plastic tampers are just plain rubbish, you seem to contradict nearly every shed of advice given out here on espresso preparation!


----------



## scottcolfer

Thanks for the save Ron, writer error (meant to be 60ml, now corrected).


----------



## scottcolfer

Hi coffeechap - Ron kindly pointed out writer error (was meant to be 60ml, now corrected).

I get what you're saying: that the equipment I'm using has limits.

However, I'd say that it's important to work in the real world and focus on taste.

*Real World.*

I can't afford a more expensive machine/grinder/tamper.

I could see that as a reason not to make coffee until I have the perfect set up.

Instead I see it as a challenge and enjoy the pragmatism of doing the best I can with what I've got.

*Taste.*

I've spoken with baristas and coffee roasters over the last couple of years and practiced a lot

I try a double espresso made at the roaster of the coffee beans I'm about to buy in order to (i) check that I like the flavour and (ii) get a benchmark for the flavour I'm trying to recreate at home

As a result, I can get results that taste 70-80% as good as the espresso you'd find in a good, independent coffee shop (despite the limitations of the equipment I'm using).

*If you wait for perfection, you'll be waiting a long time.*

If Santa leaves a La Marzocco and a Mahlkonig under the Christmas tree then I'll put them to work and get closer to espresso 80-90% as good as the coffee in a good, independent coffee shop . . . but in the meantime I'm still enjoying the espresso I'm making with the kit I've got


----------



## Mrboots2u

A decent tamper doesn't cost much .........but you would be better spending that the money on a grinder. It can seem that some of us spend inordinate amounts of money on equipment , but I also think there are some bits of kit where there are minimums to achieve good coffee.

As an example i can't believe your getting great distribution using a plastic tamper .

Do you have a naked pf to show how your shots are progressing?

Grinders don't have to cost £1000 pounds. Eagle eyes and expertise , bargains can be found . Check ninjte threads and the stuff that coffee chap does . For £80 gets you an mc2 second hand, which although having some shortcomings ,will grind to espresso.

In the end if you make coffee, with the equipment that you have, and you like the taste , that's all that counts .


----------



## coffeechap

scottcolfer said:


> Hi coffeechap - Ron kindly pointed out writer error (was meant to be 60ml, now corrected).
> 
> I get what you're saying: that the equipment I'm using has limits.
> 
> However, I'd say that it's important to work in the real world and focus on taste.
> 
> *Real World.*
> 
> I can't afford a more expensive machine/grinder/tamper.
> 
> I could see that as a reason not to make coffee until I have the perfect set up.
> 
> Instead I see it as a challenge and enjoy the pragmatism of doing the best I can with what I've got.
> 
> *Taste.*
> 
> I've spoken with baristas and coffee roasters over the last couple of years and practiced a lot
> 
> I try a double espresso made at the roaster of the coffee beans I'm about to buy in order to (i) check that I like the flavour and (ii) get a benchmark for the flavour I'm trying to recreate at home
> 
> As a result, I can get results that taste 70-80% as good as the espresso you'd find in a good, independent coffee shop (despite the limitations of the equipment I'm using).
> 
> *If you wait for perfection, you'll be waiting a long time.*
> 
> If Santa leaves a La Marzocco and a Mahlkonig under the Christmas tree then I'll put them to work and get closer to espresso 80-90% as good as the coffee in a good, independent coffee shop . . . but in the meantime I'm still enjoying the espresso I'm making with the kit I've got


I am glad that you enjoy the coffee that you make, really I am, my point was that you are offering your advice as a reference point for others on your blog and I find the advice inconsistent, we constantly advise that people weigh out their shots as per the training you were given and not work on volume as per your soon correction, you were right to say that some would say that they would baulk at the tamper and grinder, because they are what they are, I have a wealth if knowledge with regard to grinders and would be gob smacked if you were acheiving 70 percent of a decent roasters set up using that grinder and that tamper, so focussing on *real world*, with a better grinder ( for not much more money) you might actually achieve your ambition of 80- 90 percent, I would be mortified if the standard of my coffee was not equal to even the best of the independents! But then I am obsessive.


----------



## scottcolfer

All fair points, and I suppose that I am posting in the 'Barista skills' boards so should expect people to be passionate about their kit/coffee! Challenge on methods is always good so thanks for taking the time to share


----------



## Pete N

I've followed the advice on here and am weighing my shots and have got a double shot dialled at 1.6 times input and taking the 27 seconds. They taste very good.

Can someone just confirm what I'm producing here. The weight output is equivalent to around 30ml , which is less than the 60ml that is generally thought to be a double shot. I'm a little confused.


----------



## coffeechap

The volume of fluid is really irrelevant, the taste is all that matters and following the principles that you have been doing is producing a double espresso the right way. You may find that when you do more playing that some beans demand a longer extraction some an even shorter one, but tin the end go with what your mouth is telling you.


----------



## MWJB

Pete N said:


> I've followed the advice on here and am weighing my shots and have got a double shot dialled at 1.6 times input and taking the 27 seconds. They taste very good.
> 
> Can someone just confirm what I'm producing here. The weight output is equivalent to around 30ml , which is less than the 60ml that is generally thought to be a double shot. I'm a little confused.


+1 on what Coffeechap says.

But if I can expand on that ratio a little...A double shot has no set volume, or weight. It is just a shot brewed from a double dose, in a double basket. Even though a double might historically allude to a 60ml shot, early on shorter ristretto shots were found to be less bitter. Espresso, at it's inception, was most likely a less concentrated drink than many have now become used to...and this is where your "1.6" brew ratio comes in - it is a mechanism (assuming nominal espresso brewing conditions of pressure, temp) to get you into a preferred strength & body range, at a ball-park level of extraction & best flavour balance (not too acidic, not too bitter).

Aim for that 1.6 ratio, then adjust grind for best taste. You can play with the ratio (say 2 or 3:1?) & go coarser, but then you'll usually get less body & intensity (may work for particularly pungent beans?).


----------



## MWJB

Double post...first one got stuck so I stuffed a second in to flush it out.


----------



## Pete N

Thanks. That certainly makes it clearer.

I ran out of Rave beans, which thankfully should be delivered today. Just to get me over a couple of days I bought some Cafe Nero beans. Not nearly as good and made a huge difference, not very fresh at all.

i had to tighten up the grind two notches, right down to 2 on the MDF to get the flow at the right speed/weight. I didn't realise what a difference old beans could make.


----------

