# Shot time variation!



## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

Seems to happen to me quite a lot. I make two shots just twenty minutes apart.

Same beans, grinder setting, dose, water temp, tamp and weight out......but sometimes a variation of up to 10 seconds in shot time! Any ideas why?


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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

What are your parameters?

What is the difference in taste?


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

MWJB said:


> What are your parameters?
> 
> What is the difference in taste?


 Parameters....19g in, 32g out in about 30seconds. 
The first shot is espresso and is nice but I haven't previously tasted the second shot as it's usually a milk based drink for my wife. I'll taste it before the milk next time!


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Potentially a leak (could leak when cold and stop when heated up) or air getting in to the brew path somewhere? Does it take longer for the first shot to come up to pressure? Are you allowing the machine 30 minutes to heat up before the first shot? If the pressure ramp is identical then grinds prep is the only remaining area where you could get inconsistency assuming you don't have an incredibly hot and humid kitchen/and or the grind setting drifts.

EDIT: Well not the ONLY remaining area...but assuming the beans are properly roasted...


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

To always start shots from the same base point:

1. simply run water from the Minima (10 ml), then lock load and make the shot. Quick way to remove all machine variance from the shot.

2. Weigh the grinds

3. Prep the same

It should be the same...unless of course you are storing the beans in pre dosed containers....are you?

my pours on the Minima are usually within a few seconds of each other....for the same output. However if there is air getting in the brew circuit...then that can make things take longer. You could also time from the point the brew pressure needle on the group moves....


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## nicholasj (Nov 11, 2013)

DavecUK said:


> To always start shots from the same base point:
> 
> 1. simply run water from the Minima (10 ml), then lock load and make the shot. Quick way to remove all machine variance from the shot.
> 
> ...


 No not in pre dosed containers......I just wonder if I'm not distributing the grinds correctly or the same way each time. It's that void around the perimeter of the basket after removing the Niche cup. I use a toothpick thing to push the grinds to the side of the basket then a levelling tool....but I don't tamp per se.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

nicholasj said:


> No not in pre dosed containers......I just wonder if I'm not distributing the grinds correctly or the same way each time. It's that void around the perimeter of the basket after removing the Niche cup. I use a toothpick thing to push the grinds to the side of the basket then a levelling tool....but I don't tamp per se.


 Anything you do to the grinds manually can effect shot time to some degree.Try not using the toothpick and try shaking the portafilter with the can on side to side etc to get the grinds fairly level before you do anything with them. It's possible to lift the can off and have a look and put it back on.

Using a levelling / distribution tool doesn't actually set a tamping level. It can be high or low. Personally I've found that it's best to use them for a mild pre tamp before using the real one. The pretamp helps keep that one level.

 I also gave up on 3 wing distribution tools. Too many flows started with 3 runs. They'd need setting very lightly to avoid that.

John

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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I use a stirrer pre tamp but my general routine is to tap portafilter reasonably firmly on countertop a couple of times then use a chisel distribution tool to flatten and tamp a bit and then I use a 58.55mm tamper to polish and generally get the grounds from the edge and compact to the edges of the basket.

I have fairly consistent pours and minimal channelling 90% of the time on a naked PF.

As Dave says though, make sure you purge a tiny amount of coffee from the group pre pour or you could just have a bit of air in the path of the water that increases the shot time.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

nicholasj said:


> No not in pre dosed containers......I just wonder if I'm not distributing the grinds correctly or the same way each time. It's that void around the perimeter of the basket after removing the Niche cup. I use a toothpick thing to push the grinds to the side of the basket then a levelling tool....but I don't tamp per se.


 Most likely your prep then. I just tap on the side of the pf with my fingers a few times to level out and then down once on the tamping mat.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Agree with the other comments.

Also: read this https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/11/01/coffee-leveller-tamper/


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

DavecUK said:


> Agree with the other comments.
> 
> Also: read this https://coffeeequipmentreviews.wordpress.com/2019/11/01/coffee-leveller-tamper/


 i came across a video by an ex world champ trying to move to paid for tuition. Seems he had lots sent to him to evaluate and all said get the coffee level before using them..  You can guess his conclusion.

Mine is a little different. 2 slope is better than 3. Those work remarkably well in consistency terms if things start with a nice even central heap of grinds in the portafilter if used for a pretamp. They can distribute a little unevenness providing the pressure in the grinds is fairly even but not so consistent as a central heap of grinds. They can also apply enormous pressure if used for a full tamp, 17g into a 14 my mistake and the portafilter went on easily.  Did something similar yesterday, got my 14 and 20g baskets mixed up, it left a V shaped top to the puck this time. I've had to move stuff around and the baskets look similar.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> i came across a video by an ex world champ trying to move to paid for tuition. Seems he had lots sent to him to evaluate and all said get the coffee level before using them..  You can guess his conclusion.
> 
> Mine is a little different. 2 slope is better than 3. Those work remarkably well in consistency terms if things start with a nice even central heap of grinds in the portafilter if used for a pretamp. They can distribute a little unevenness providing the pressure in the grinds is fairly even but not so consistent as a central heap of grinds. They can also apply enormous pressure if used for a full tamp, 17g into a 14 my mistake and the portafilter went on easily.  Did something similar yesterday, got my 14 and 20g baskets mixed up, it left a V shaped top to the puck this time. I've had to move stuff around and the baskets look similar.
> 
> ...


 Well, seeing as the OCD ONA (the first of these types that I'm aware of) was conceived by a World Champ, that seems to even things out in the world champ opinion score


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> Well, seeing as the OCD ONA (the first of these types that I'm aware of) was conceived by a World Champ, that seems to even things out in the world champ opinion score ?


 Other world champs have used similar with a flat base to pretamp. It's noticeable that the EK43's they use produce pretty level clumps when they move them out of the can into the portafilter.

The one I mentioned seems to have prototyped something he wanted to call horizontal tamping. Thing that pushes a bed of nail like arrangement into the puck. He also advocates maximising yield and if too strong reduce the dose.  Takes all sorts.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> Other world champs have used similar with a flat base to pretamp. It's noticeable that the EK43's they use produce pretty level clumps when they move them out of the can into the portafilter.
> 
> The one I mentioned seems to have prototyped something he wanted to call horizontal tamping. Thing that pushes a bed of nail like arrangement into the puck. He also advocates maximising yield and if too strong reduce the dose.  Takes all sorts.
> 
> ...


 How many world barista champs used EK-43s?

You seem to be talking about Matt Perger, whilst a worthy winner of World Brewers Cup & Australian Barista champ , he's not yet been World Barista champ.


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## mctrials23 (May 8, 2017)

I mean, a leveller isn't meant to take a 45 degree mound of coffee and perfectly distribute it. Its designed to move coffee around that top 3-4mm area and depending on the depth, tamp super level.

I generally stir the grounds well, settle them down with some taps, use the chisel leveller to get a decently compacted and very level puck and then the tamper is just a polisher and to make sure the bed is solid.

What I really want is a good quality58.55mm chisel tool because the cheapo "55.5mm" chinese one I have ain't close to being as tight as my torr tamper which I trust to be that diameter.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

MWJB said:


> EK-43s





MWJB said:


> How many world barista champs used EK43S?
> 
> You seem to be talking about Matt Perger, whilst a worthy winner of World Brewers Cup & Australian Barista champ , he's not yet been World Barista champ.


 I suppose his comment on yield may make sense to coffee shop owners. I did get the impression he had been a world champ.

And



ajohn said:


> EK43's


 is not the same as



MWJB said:


> EK-43s


 Although I have made incorrect use of ' thanks for mentioning why.

John

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## MWJB (Feb 28, 2012)

ajohn said:


> I suppose his comment on yield may make sense to coffee shop owners. I did get the impression he had been a world champ.
> 
> And
> 
> ...


 Confusion & distraction as ever -I don't really care, nor does it matter whether we're talking about plural of EK-43, or things belonging to an EK-43, I just asked how many barista world champs had used them in their winning routine?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

After partly watching a couple of world champ videos I decided no more as no useful information. Maximising yield on the other hand might be interesting so watched more of that one.

John

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