# Newbie here, looking to open a coffee shop!



## Dee (Jun 26, 2017)

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to open a coffee shop (in Leicester), and am considering barista courses. At the moment, I'm considering going to Italy (I looked at Italian Barista School).

Has anyone here heard of it or been?

I'm sure there are a lot of first time 'I want to open a coffee shop' posters here, but I'm deadly serious about it!

I'm worried about travelling to Italy to only end up on a substandard course (I've seen a lot of people do that with gelato!)

Also, do people think it so worth travelling to Italy over? Or should I just stick to a course in the UK?

Generally, I always get annoyed then I order a cappuccino, and it ends up tasting like a latte or a flat white (incorrect foam ratios) and whilst you can get a decent Americano, I find it difficult to get a decent espresso!

The last time I went to Italy I fell in love with the coffee (drank around 8 americanos, 2 cappuccinos and 4 espressos in a day)

Then I came back to England and came crashing (no pun intended) down to reality.

I am also not entirely sure whether I should buy in, or roast my own.

Hope its not rude of me to ask such a question on my first post!


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## Drewster (Dec 1, 2013)

Hello and welcome

Personally I would investigate UK based courses first (some on this board can provide them) anyway.

Even if the curses were about equal - why would you pay loads more for travel etc to go to Italy?

Are you fluent in Italian? If not there is another big down point...

DO you have a "real" plan at this point.... location, turnover etc etc etc... or just an idea

(not a criticism - you need to start somewhere)...

How much do you know about coffee - do you make your own now? etc etc

There will be loads of help and advice available on the forum - ranging from people who can sell you kit, people who can sell you training etc and people who have "been there done that"..............

Enjoy the ride!


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## RDC8 (Dec 6, 2016)

Just to be a bit controversial here:

Why do you feel you need to undertake a barista course to open a coffee shop?

Just as important to ask - What do you know about business in general? (Marketing, contracts, USP, hiring and firing, cash-flow management, tax obligations etc) What do you know about running a coffee shop? (Food safety, cleaning routines, opening and closing procedures, equipment and fitout, reputable suppliers, council regulations etc)

Learning how to make a decent coffee should be the least of your worries - you can always hire someone to do that.

As for roasting your own beans .... well that's a much longer and steeper learning curve than learning how to make a decent espresso!


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## Dee (Jun 26, 2017)

Many thanks for the response.

My background is a freelance marketing agent, and I've had a couple of businesses before. On that side of things, I'm more than ready. Not trying to be arrogant, but I understand why you ask this question. I'm sure many people end up with a 'dream' that reality is only more than happy to crush!

I used to own a shisha cafe, which I had to leave due to personal circumstances - So hospitality/retail is something I'm familiar with.

Okay; that came across as very arrogant! What I mean is, I'm not going into this thinking it will be a walk in the park, and I'm always open to suggestions and criticisms!

Now as for coffee, I'm a huge fan, but clueless about being a barista. It's what I need to work most on! Which is why I'm happy to pay what I need to and go where I need to in order to receive the best possible training.

My wife would be accompanying me, so if we were to go, it would be a bit of a working holiday. I also saw the Espresso Academy in Florence as an option. The reason why I considered Italy is because of the style of coffee I had there, as opposed to here in the UK.

Having said that, if there are skills/styles I can learn here as opposed to going to Italy, then it's certainly the better option.


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## Dee (Jun 26, 2017)

It's important as my wife and I will be running it (at least to begin eith) and we don't want to drive our customers away before we even get on our feet!


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## igm45 (Mar 5, 2017)

I don't think it came across as arrogant. It's nice to know that you know your strengths (and weaknesses) and your not rushing into it blind.

If I were you I would still be reluctant going to Italy for the course as you can't be certain of the quality of teaching you receive and if language will be too large of a hurdle to overcome.

There is immense knowledge in the UK of specialist coffee and once you have learnt the foundations you will be able to replicate the flavours/coffees you had in Italy.

With regards to roasting your own I would suggest taking one step at a time and maybe once you have your customer base you could expand your offerings then?


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Are you opening a coffee shop, for people to come in and drink coffee, or for them just to come in and socialise as there is a vast difference. Italian espresso is not to everyones taste. They drink a lot of single shots (7 gm) where as we do not. They drink a lot of dark roasted commercial stuff like Illy and Lavazza whereas we do not. Could you do a weeks course in a commercial kitchen with little or no experience beyond that, and expect tom open a restaurant and serve good food?

Do not got to Italy! You will easily find professionals on this forum for starters. Have you got you kit sorted out yet?


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## MrBaozi (May 11, 2017)

I'm still a novice with regards to coffee so you can take my advice with a pinch of salt.

There are plenty of good roasters here in the UK and many good coffee shops that don't roast their own beans. I personally would find beans from a roaster that I would be happy to served to my customers and nail it with the consistency required for a coffee shop before even thinking about roasting. If you're going to be buying beans from the roaster then I'm sure they should be able to provide the training required.


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## Dee (Jun 26, 2017)

Not yet, I've looked into leasing equipment etc, but really and truly I wish to learn all I can about making coffee first, and then be in a position to make a more informed opinion on equipment.

I feel as though knowing how to make the coffee I wish to serve, and equipment basics is my first step.

Your right about Italian coffee being different, which is partially why I want to do it. It's also the variety of drinks out there such as a Bicerin that I wish to have as part of my repertoire.

Ideally, I want to focus on takeaway coffees, with a small quirky space to sit too. Definitely no super comfy couches, but not going to do bog standard tables and chairs either. To put it simply, I've been living off pinterest lately!

Because of my background, I know the power of branding and how to effectively use it without spending silly money. We're not looking at crazy six figure investments (Even if I wanted to, I couldn't afford it!).

And you're right about spending a little time doing something, and expecting to run a business off it. But you have to start somewhere!


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Which is exactly why you have to get it right. Tell the forum where you are based and I am sure people will contact you. meanwhile, depending on time scales involved you could buy a home set up and start to learn. You might find it is not as simple as you think, to make repeatable good coffee. You can buy your kit and dictate everything, or lease it or some companies give you the kit in exchange for you buying their beans. Sounds attractive but on the whole the beans will be expensive and shite, plus their is no write off against potential tax. Matthew Algie are probably the best known for this


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

I think take a step back and think about your offering to the market.

1. It's the UK not Italy, you need to cater for those tastes and styles of coffee

2. You need to think about all the non up your ar&se coffee drinks people will want and all the sugar topped crap and mocha strawberry chocolate frappacino with whipped cream, for people who don't really like coffee but want to drink it. Plus the super big gulp lattes. You can't always educate the masses...

3. What proportion of your business is coffee vs food (arguably, you might find it tricky to make a living on just coffee)

4. Location/competition

5. The USPs of the place your opening e.g. if you roast your own beans, then will you have a small shop roaster behind glass, visible to the customers, is it about theatre e.g. Lever machines....what...

The last thing you need to worry about at the moment is a Barista Course or roasting


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## Snakehips (Jun 2, 2015)

I echo most of what has been said above.

Here is one option you may wish to look at in respect of UK based barista training and coffee related startups.

Limini


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

Milk preparation skills are more important in this type of coffee and where you need training and good machinery. Pod machines (commercial) will give consistent single shot Italian coffee.


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## cold war kid (Mar 12, 2010)

You've hit on 2 things straight away that could set you out from the crowd but they'd both be tricky to pull off commercially.

Roasting your own beans in store for customers to see is something very rare in a coffee shop but isn't something you can just set up and do with no experience and especially on a budget that makes financial sense.

Also, a true Italian bar is unusual but I think you'd struggle to make this work in Leicester. As others have said there's too many people expect a dessert in a massive coffee cup rather than real coffee and just not enough espresso drinkers.

Good luck whatever you try and do.


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## Elcee (Feb 16, 2017)

What research have you done to assess demand in Leicester for what you plan to offer?


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## forzamb (Nov 25, 2015)

I've always loved the idea of opening an Italian style bar but the romance of it is probably better than the reality. Good luck though, it'd be nice to think someone could do it


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

The premise that Italian coffee is good coffee is very debatable. I've had some very bad coffee in Italy. Even the "good stuff" is only tolerable with some sweetener. Speciality it ain't.


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## Dee (Jun 26, 2017)

A lot of you have made very valid points.

Roasting is something I'm considering, as opposed to being a dead cert on. The whole aspect of theatre is something I very much care for and understand.

I'm the type of person to go all out and just brand everything. And not in the sense of how most things are branded, but to look at new and innovative methods of branding/labelling. It's the key to the business in my eyes, and it's something I can do without the costs that many others would be likely to occur in doing so.

It's funny one of the posters mentioning an Italian concept being difficult in Leicester - I used to market for Gelato Village, which is probably the best gelateria in the country. A very Italian concept, with a very Italian style which required a hell of a lot of marketing (educational) to sell the product and build the brand.

My idea isn't to go full in Italian with the brand. The product is one thing, but the brand is another. So I want to go a little more 'commercial' with the branding, but a hell of a lot less so with the product.

I'm trying to address all the replies here, but you're right about USP. And you're right about these 'not quite coffee' coffee drinks. It's 100% something that I need to address, and haven't thought too much about. I'm thinking along the lines of Danish pastry for food, as opposed to sandwiches etc. I do want coffee to be the main product.

I'll let you all in on a little secret (solely from a marketing perspective). They used to say: 'Marketing used to be about selling products, but now it's about telling stories'. Truth is, everyone has a company 'story', but it's not all about that. It's about engagement. And how do you engage? Especially with so-called millenials? It's not just about 'being' on social media, or being active on it... But it's about making yourself snapchat/Instagram worthy. As a brief explanation, I would want cups that people would want to post on their pages. So, with an iced coffee or a frappe, my takeaway cups need to be more attractive than the norm. It's isn't the ONLY way to market, but it's my philosophy on it.

Having said that, the coffee needs to still be good. I haven't stepped foot into a Starbucks for years. It's imperative that I have a decent espresso.

The other reason I'm considering Italy, is because every coffee shop I go to in the UK seem to have too much heavy milk and not enough foam in the cappuccino. It really pisses me off, as I've always assumed there should be 1/3 ratio of foam. Perhaps om just too fussy?


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## jimbojohn55 (Jan 15, 2016)

Good luck with the venture - it would be interesting if you kept this thread going through the process. Just a couple of thoughts -

If you go down the Italian route having a barrista called Frank from Brum wont fit - its like going to an Italian restaurant you don't feel its authentic unless its owned and run by an Italian family, concepts age quickly.

Quality - if its not about quality then why do it, don't aim to be the new costa, aim to be better , that's why people go to the third wave shops, reputation will bring in even the syrup brigade even if they cant taste the quality.


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## Obnic (Jan 14, 2014)

Barista training in Florence. I'd do it just because it's Florence.

For me this would be a great reflective experience and a way to really anchor my 'Italian coffee bar' concept. This may prove invaluable later as a way of binding both you and your spouse to the venture when things inevitably get 'real'. Plus, It will be dirt cheap too because of the condition of their economy.

I'd then come back and do some U.K. training as a way of tailoring my concept to the U.K. taste and also because I doubt that one course makes a barista.


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## 4085 (Nov 23, 2012)

Ok, so the idea is to piggyback the Gelato business and tap into what you think is a ready mate "italiano experience" market. Sound, but with one flaw. Gelato is fantastic, Italian coffee on the whole is not. I agree that with a lot of coffee shops there is no difference between a flat white and the next drink, and that the public on the whole do not have a clue. You could give them the italian experience but not the bitter, burnt italian bean. Illy run a courses. There was a video on here a couple of months back about it

http://entiredocumentaries.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/illy-coffee-megafactories.html

But, for me, you see what the public want or they don't drink it!


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## Step21 (Oct 2, 2014)

I wish you every success in your venture.

If I read this correctly you plan to open a small Italian coffee shop focusing on takeaway and not encouaging customers to linger. Your idea about takeaway cups makes sense to create distinction.

People focused on takeaway are unlikely to be that discerning on the coffee. So decent Italian blend coffee with good milk skills should be more than adequate.

There still seems to be a perception with the public that Italian coffee is good and everything Italian has "style". Whether that is right or wrong is moot. There is probably something there to tap into.

Can't see why you'd want to roast your own. It takes time to learn and although there may be theatre from a practical point of view who is going to linger to watch in a cramped space? Your customers are in a hurry. Roasters are hot and smoky (doesn't smell great), so you've got ventilation and health & safety issues and most of them are not objects of art. Not a lot to see. It's not like a wood fired pizza oven.

Have you seen any roasters in cafes in Italy?


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## offtheground (Jul 15, 2015)

Your thread's got a bit diluted but I agree with the premise of sticking to training in the UK. If you've no experience of roasting then I'd steer clear from that. It's a whole different field to actually preparing coffee. There are many training courses available in the UK. Limini has been mentioned and is a good start. Start talking to different roasters around the country as many of them will provide training at a reasonable cost which will also be reimbursed if you end up using them as your supplier. Understanding and appreciating speciality coffee is your first step though. Drink as much as you can in top shops around the UK, buy a load of beans from the best roasters and try them all. Read this forum every night, listen to podcasts, read books and really immerse yourself in coffee. It's only then that you realise how important it is to keep standards impeccably high. At the end of the day though, you can do as much training as you like, but it's practise that makes the difference.

A note on the Italian style. Italian coffee has a charm to it and it's understandable that you'd like to go in that direction. Unfortunately though, a load of brands in the UK have bastardised the Italian theme so it's now somewhat associated with poor quality. This is something you'd need to be careful of when trying to attract speciality coffee lovers as well as us millennials who are obsessed with cool 'aesthetics'. Good luck!


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## Dee (Jun 26, 2017)

Cheers everyone, very good advice!

I most certainly shall be doing everything I can to learn and understand about coffee.

From considering going to Italy and roasting my own beans, I'm lingering more closely to training here in the UK and finding a UK based supplier.

One reason why I wanted to roast, is to sell the coffee (potentially online too). I suppose I would need to find a supplier that wouldn't mind me repackaging their coffee.

The other reason I came on this forum, is because I know a great deal about gelato and chocolate. And I know there is a lot of misinformation out there. I assume it's the same with coffee, and the last thing I want to do is start learning down the wrong track.

For instance, how many here would claim to enjoy chocolate, but have no idea what criollo is? Walk into your local Godiva or Hotel Chocolat and you'll get blank stares!

Likewise, with coffee - As subjective as it is, I just want to make sure I don't start reading the wrong books, or getting wrong information.

With regards to an Italian theme, it was more a case of Italian style coffee, as opposed to theming the business on 'Italy' or 'Italian culture'.

I do intend for the brand to come off in between what would be determined as hipster and commercial. But the key is a good product. The way I look at it is what customers am I trying to attract? And having said that, I feel the bulk of customers aren't coffee connoisseurs. As such, I don't want to exclude serious coffee drinkers, but I won't be targeting them. Hence the focus on a quality product. I feel the bulk of the customers drink coffee because it's a 'cool' thing to do, and to be seen doing. Hence why I deem it to be imperative that my coffee shop is something that is cool to be seen in, and a takeaway cup that is cool to drink.

A lot of my money (and my wife's!) is going into branding and marketing. We're talking 30% of the budget. Now before anyone says it's a bad idea to spend so much on branding, bare in mind that I get things at more or less half the cost and it's risky for people with no background in marketing. I'll be doing things like sourcing cups from China (I have sourced from China before) and not paying full price on what I ordinarily would do so.

Consequently, I will had to do certain elements of the shop fitting myself, and go for a very quirky, but almost minimalist feel to cut costs. I feel this will help with having cool aesthetics, that don't look cheap either.

I'm waiting for the right lease (500-800 square feet) with the right footfall. Based on this, I can use the time I have for training, and of course reading too. So any pointers on books to buy would be most appreciated!

Also, if and when this takes off, all of you who have commented I feel I owe a free coffee! haha


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## Lefteye (Dec 30, 2014)

Good luck ! It certainly sounds exciting. Love gelato


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## jimbocz (Jun 5, 2015)

Personally, I'd rather have a really good chocolate/ gelato shop on my high street than yet another coffee shop. That goes double for a coffee shop with good branding that does not target serious coffee drinkers. There must be 10 of those already. No gelato shop though.


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## Dee (Jun 26, 2017)

jimbocz said:


> Personally, I'd rather have a really good chocolate/ gelato shop on my high street than yet another coffee shop. That goes double for a coffee shop with good branding that does not target serious coffee drinkers. There must be 10 of those already. No gelato shop though.


I'd love to open a Gelateria... Though I don't have the 6 figures required to open one!


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## YerbaMate170 (Jun 15, 2015)

I would really advise visiting as many coffee shops in the UK as possible - not Starbucks and Costa but speciality/independent places that are highly rated - just so you have an idea of what the current 2017 coffee shop trends are, what works, what people want, what they offer...

It seems you have plenty of marketing/business experience which is great, but it sounds like what's missing is perhaps you're not totally in touch with the current coffee scene: not to sound harsh, I just mean maybe spend a weekend in London, visit places like Prufrock, Monmouth, etc and even if you don't plan to be just another speciality coffee shop, I think it'll give you an idea of what works in the modern day high street.


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## mcrmfc (Sep 17, 2016)

I think you should really listen to the Cat and Cloud podcast, they have deep deep knowledge of Coffee and the industry but are on a drive to make it accessible for everybody. They have had some very good shows recently that go deep into their approach to customer service.

https://catandcloud.com/pages/podcast

Also check everything and anything that James Hoffmann has put out.


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## thesmileyone (Sep 27, 2016)

I would do the Florence course. Think of it as a nice romantic getaway and some education!

Then come back and sell the italian coffee experience but make it taste good instead of real italian coffee. Remember the public here doesn't know italian coffee is sour, they think it is THE BEST because...italian.

Use your contacts from the gelato place to do that on the side. Coffee and ice cream yes please.

My parents visit an italian coffee place in Chester, they rave about it because italian, not because the taste is great.


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