# End game machine? - Sage/Breville Dual Boiler



## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

What do we think about this? Is it a realistic possibility?


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

An end game machine is whatever someone feels it is, and it varies by person. For some it will be a Gaggia and hand grinder, for others a GS3 or a Synesso etc.. and Monolith Flax Max


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Maybe for people who a machine as a kitchen appliance. The kind of people that probably don't frequent a place like this 😂

But as Dave said, it will vary from person to person depending on their priorities and budget


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

Very zen 

OK, I'll rephrase the question: grinders aside, can the mods that one do to a DB really match up to the same features offered by £3-4000 machines?


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

I think £3-4000 is a bit of an exaggeration. Adjustable preinfusion and flow control is available on a Lelit Bianca at £1850.

The reason I chose an ACS Minima (add flow control for £150) over the Sage DB is ease of repair, part availability and long term reliability (difficult to gauge).

I'm sure the Sage DB is otherwise a great machine. With discounts it's been available as low as £900, although £1200 at full price. The Minima is currently £1279.

As far as it being an end game machine is concerned, that really does depend on the individual as Dave mentioned. Some people may settle on a La Pavoni after using a Decent 😄


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## dutchy101 (Jun 12, 2020)

The ACS Minima in black is going to be me end game machine.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

It's a tricky one...

On one hand you have the Bianca, where you have everything you need, out of the box, for approx. £1,850 at Bella Barista..

Or...

You can have the Minima for £1,300, with a bottomless PF. If you want in black, add £100.

Then add a Bianca flow a control valve for £200... So that's £1,500. (There might be cheaper ones, I don't know)

So, for £350 less you have a Bianca equivalent.

What attracts me to that setup is the hassle free, solenoid operated E61 group that the Minima sports. Backflush as much as you please, no lubrication, no nothing. Also, as the name suggests, the Minima is a no frills, to the point, back to basics machine. The Lelit, on the other hand, sports other features, like the Control Centre, a rotary pump, and the ability to move the tank to a different position.

Wouldn't it be nice if they did a Bianca with a solenoid operated E61 group? 🙂

*You can get the Bianca cheaper at Espresso Underground.


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

One way to get Slayer type shots out of the DB is by dribbling hot water while the shot is being pulled. The other is to use the infusion settings. Very similar results and from playing around the bulk of that effect occurs during the early parts of infusion. There is a limitation on infusion power - the pump can stall so puck pressure drops until the pump can run again. That can happen several times with low power and a 15sec infusion time.

Temperature control?






The achieve it by using PID on the brew boiler and the group head. These interact. A rather expensive machine uses a similar approach. Also preheat via a small HX in the steam boiler. The usual few seconds flush to make sure the water circuits are full takes care of that if it overheats. It takes several mins to overheat.

It can be used 3mins after it's turned on.  As I use fixed 30sec shots and check weigh it takes me nearly that long to prepare the grinds. Steam is available too with a but relating to descale. A hot portafilter if wanted doesn't extend the time by much.

It's easy to descale. Some have reported that steam takes a little longer to be available from when it's ready for brew. Going on mine this is due to scale. Easy descale makes the machine rather attractive if use of tap water is feasible. My machine was a refurb and it's turned out that it had more scale in the steam boiler than a single descale can remove so can't comment on how good the machine's built in descale indicator is.

If the machine shows signs of scale then like all it really needs and engineering style descale and inspection. As piping is small etc checking these are clear of sludge will probably be more difficult than others.

It can be back flushed how ever often some one feels like doing it. The solenoid is a type used in many machines and the Sage variant is easily available. One design flaw maybe. The 3 ways action goes vertically out of the solenoid. I'd suspect some machines mount them upside down or side ways. An IMS competition shower screen helps keep grinds out of the internals.

O rings needing replacing at some point. A rather well known feature. They are generally expected to last >3years

A 48w Ulka can be fitted when the Sage one wears out.

NTC sensors are available from Oz but not from the UK. Seems they were until Sage put a block on Coffee Classics selling parts.

The TRIAC board uses dead common parts. People who understand how this area works and can use a soldering iron shouldn't have any problem repairing them. It seems engineers often replace them if solenoids act up - just in case. My solenoid acted up - scale sludge so I cleaned it out. This does happen at times on all Sage machines.

Several things that may fail are covered on the web. Thermal fuse for instance.

The boilers aren't used as part of the level sensing circuits so there are 2 in the brew boiler. The steam uses 3. On high level and the other low. This seems to be to avoid adding water to the boiler while steam is being drawn. These may need cleaning at some point.

🤕Volumetrics don't work too well because of where they stick the flow meter. It's before the OPV so also measures water going that way. It should still work if prep is constant enough. Reason - the meter wont take 9bar or 10 which is where the machine is sometimes set and probably should be.

A new brain may be costly. Pass but gicar units with similar features are not cheap.

It's a totally different animal to the other machines that have been mentioned. Extensive use of stainless too which is unusual. Even the vac valve.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

-Mac said:


> What do we think about this? Is it a realistic possibility?


 End game is when we don't want to play anymore, hopefully when we die, no? 🙂

As for a machine, what does it mean? As DaveC said, it depends on the player (and circumstances) what an end game machine is. Personally, if I can have a beautifully crafted classic coffee machine, not only the appliance-look-and-feel of the Sage/Brevile isn't an end game, it isn't in the game at all. Did I mention this was personal?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Doram said:


> the Sage/Brevile isn't an end game,


 It is for me especially when I read about some of the faults that crop up on machines that have been mentioned. Nothing else compares with it.


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## Kyle T (Jan 6, 2016)

Fez said:


> Maybe for people who a machine as a kitchen appliance. The kind of people that probably don't frequent a place like this 😂
> 
> But as Dave said, it will vary from person to person depending on their priorities and budget


 What? There are a ton of people on this forum who own, or, who have owned (me included) DB's and various other Sage machines.


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## Kyle T (Jan 6, 2016)

ajohn said:


> It is for me especially when I read about some of the faults that crop up on machines that have been mentioned. Nothing else compares with it.


 This! The whole "reliability" issues people have used over the years about the Sage stuff is not fair in my opinion. I've owned various Sage stuff and never had an issue. The whole "there's too many electronic parts to fail" was maybe an excuse not to own one 4-5 years ago but nowadays so many manufacturers are adding more and more electronics to their machines without the same criticism. Only recently numerous people on this forum were having issues with the MaraX temp sensors.

As for the Lance Hendrick video, I really like his videos, especially his milk tutorial stuff but I take what he says about the DB with a pinch of salt (even though I personally loved mine) as I think he's sponsored or affiliated with Breville in some way.


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## Doram (Oct 12, 2012)

Kyle T said:


> This! The whole "reliability" issues people have used over the years about the Sage stuff is not fair in my opinion. I've owned various Sage stuff and never had an issue. The whole "there's too many electronic parts to fail" was maybe an excuse not to own one 4-5 years ago but nowadays so many manufacturers are adding more and more electronics to their machines without the same criticism. Only recently numerous people on this forum were having issues with the MaraX temp sensors.
> 
> As for the Lance Hendrick video, I really like his videos, especially his milk tutorial stuff but I take what he says about the DB with a pinch of salt (even though I personally loved mine) as I think he's sponsored or affiliated with Breville in some way.


 It is such a personal thing. People are different, and want and enjoy different things. This is why there is variety in everything, and not everyone doing the same thing and having the same stuff. The OP was asking if a certain machine is an end game, and the answer must be that it could be for the people who this is what they want, and who will never want anything else. Others can want this, but then want something else, and others again can not want this at all. It's a bit meaningless, but that is the truth, isn't it?


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## Fez (Dec 31, 2018)

Kyle T said:


> What? There are a ton of people on this forum who own, or, who have owned (me included) DB's and various other Sage machines.


 But how many of those owners consider their machines "endgame machines"


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Not many. I've got a number of machines that some would consider end game _ but I've still ordered an Evo Leva!

My end game machine hasn't been made or even designed yet 😁


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## Waitforme (Dec 13, 2020)

For some people a Nespresso pod machine is end game.

To each their own.


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## HVL87 (Dec 17, 2019)

Kyle T said:


> This! The whole "reliability" issues people have used over the years about the Sage stuff is not fair in my opinion. I've owned various Sage stuff and never had an issue.


 I had 3 sage machines, one Barista Express and two Barista Pro's. All of them had issues and were returned. These are thermocoil/thermojet machines and so work differently to the Sage DB.

At least I know that with a "prosumer" machine, if parts fail in the future I can easily replace them.

It is however concerning how many issues people are having with new "prosumer" machines, across the board.


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## -Mac (Aug 22, 2019)

I totally get the arguments for owner choice, pride of ownership, joy of usage, better materials, etc. and I agree - to each his own. I guess what I was meaning was end game performance. Can a DB really do what a much more expensive machine can do in terms of making an equivalent shot?


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Kyle T said:


> The whole "reliability" issues people have used over the years about the Sage stuff is not fair in my opinion. I've owned various Sage stuff and never had an issue. The whole "there's too many electronic parts to fail" was maybe an excuse not to own one 4-5 years ago but nowadays


 Many people have had similar experiences.

Electronics to fail has never really been a reason for not buying. Loads of the stuff lasts far longer than people choose to use them in many many areas far removed from espresso machines. The stuff just needs to be designed and rated correctly and generally doesn't do that badly even when that isn't done that well. Mechanical bits fixed to them are more likely to fail, buttons and switches etc. Solenoids too at some point, pumps, opv's and etc. NTC's are usually used in most machines - a cheap option. Not much evidence that they are a problem though.

Then what is an end game machine. Brew temperature control, a brew pressure and steaming ability. The DB seems to score on all of these from the info that is around. The BE can steam 500ml of milk in a not too unreasonably time. The DB would do that a lot quicker. They introduced the first DB is 2011. This shows where they differ from other makers - money and how much they are prepared to put in upfront. Pity they don't publish tooling costs for cases etc.

https://www.applianceretailer.com.au/acdzivszpw/#.YNcRViV7l7U

My end game is the coffee that comes out so given the DB what could I buy to improve it. Maybe an Eagle One, seems to use the same heating idea.  I'd like true volumetric control. That can be obtained at a heavy on cost but what about the other features?

Scale and thermo machines are a known problem. Takes longer to cause grief on a boiler machine but can be just as bad. Many people with higher end machines take direct steps to avoid scale all together. These aren't the people who have generally bought their first machine and Sage sell so many it may well be one of those. It seems there was a DB version where some people managed to get the steam boiler to heat during descale with no water in it. Might be them or a Breville problem. This sort of thing can crop up in some area or the other on any machine. Might be down to a batch of parts that were used to build them. Might be down to a new design. Usually ironed out swiftly as replacement reduces profit. Sage do replace of fix.  For 2 years anyway and any of their engineers are likely to say scale often figures. 2 years of use is significant. It's a rather long proving period for various bits in the machine. Some bits will wear out eventually on all machines. Solenoids and pumps for instance. Joints may start to leak. Electronics/electrics of any sort and water don't mix well. I am rather critical about the PCB material they use on the triac board. Few use it these days but maybe it has been upgraded on newer machines.

So some of the parts that *may *need replacing are not easy to get and may have to be done by an engineer. That is an expensive route on all machines but they need to fail in the first place.

Breville also do not make all of the parts in any of their machines. Some are probably available from elsewhere. The usual bits that wear are.


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## Mel O Birds (Nov 17, 2020)

Fez said:


> machine as a kitchen appliance. The kind of people that probably don't frequent a place like this 😂


 Which room in the house do the people who frequent a place like this usually keep their kit in? What's the difference between an "appliance" and a proper big boy's machine? ☺


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## Stevebee (Jul 21, 2015)

Never owned a Breville / Sage but it's not end game in my opinion. Can't imagine inviting anyone round to show off my Sage!

Decent moved away from the idea of delivering a machine c 1000. As the DBD had it covered so they couldn't compete on price.

So he BDB is a nice machine made even better if you have the balls to do a few mods.

However, the Decent is leagues apart on any measure


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## ajohn (Sep 23, 2017)

Fez said:


> Maybe for people who a machine as a kitchen appliance. The kind of people that probably don't frequent a place like this


 There has always been a number of people on here that use a Sage DB. Some an Oracle.



Mel O Birds said:


> What's the difference between an "appliance" and a proper big boy's machine? ☺


 Seems a big boys machine must have shiny bits and pieces and a lever to brew coffee. No solenoid at one point but they appear to be changing that. Some wont hold a stable brew temperature. If some one wants to make their brewing even more complicated buy an HX machine. There is a nice post on here concerning using a fan to control the group head temperature. Some might see that as preferable to flushing. Some might like the taste if they just use the machine and not worry about this area at all.



Stevebee said:


> So he BDB is a nice machine made even better if you have the balls to do a few mods.
> 
> However, the Decent is leagues apart on any measure


 Seems there is no need to mod them and the usual mod looses steam. Just use the hot water supply instead. I've not tried it yet but ...........do I want to.

Inspired by a Decent video I have gone some way down that route just by altering settings. Extended infusion. What it does depends on the bean. Some loose all taste relationship to the ratio used. Some retain a bit and keep their tasting notes. Ok I get a darker flow and stronger coffee but I have to wonder if there is any point in working this way as I could just use a larger dose and retain more control of the taste.

This whole area is a bit weird really as it can change the taste of what comes out pretty dramatically. The bean can finish up bearing no relationship to it's tasting notes at all. Some similar machines can emulate different machines. Ok but that route means a taste change otherwise there is no point in emulating them.


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