# mushroom top - inspection



## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

hello everyone,

I've had a Rocket Appartamento for about a year now.

I do monthly cleaning of the portafilter, group head shower filter, gasket and dispersion plate.

Never really

I also used bottled water for a 11 months before starting to make my own (distilled water + epsom salts + baking soda) a month ago.

I make about 16 espressos a week.

Today I popped off the top to inspect.

It looked like this.

Pretty good, huh?

But whats the green gunk? Doesn't look like water impurities.

It was solid like salt but would crush like powder if I crushed it.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Just scale and crap in the water you have been, are using..


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

DavecUK said:


> Just scale and crap in the water you have been, are using..


 Doesn't look too bad though?

The inside was much cleaner. But the jet hole looked a bit clogged.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

hedonist222 said:


> Doesn't look too bad though?
> 
> The inside was much cleaner. But the jet hole looked a bit clogged.


 If you say so, I prefer to see em completely clean, not like that, bet the boiler and heating element are worse.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

hedonist222 said:


> Doesn't look too bad though?
> 
> The inside was much cleaner. But the jet hole looked a bit clogged.


Which bottled water have you been using?


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Which bottled water have you been using?


 Used to use bottled water.

Photo of mineral content.

Now I use distilled water + epsom salt + baking soda


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

That was mine in comparison.

Dual boiler machine, 18 months of Tesco Ashbeck bottled water.

https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/30238-descaling-question-10-months-of-tescos-ashbeck-bottled-water/?tab=comments#comment-471810


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> That was mine in comparison.
> 
> Dual boiler machine, 18 months of Tesco Ashbeck bottled water.
> 
> https://coffeeforums.co.uk/topic/30238-descaling-question-10-months-of-tescos-ashbeck-bottled-water/?tab=comments#comment-471810


 That looked very clean for 18 months


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

I've been looking through my notes.

The water you've been using is too hard.

See:

http://users.rcn.com/erics/Water%20Quality/Water%20FAQ.pdf

http://londiniumcoffee.blogspot.co.uk/2009/01/best-water-for-your-espresso-machine.html

Volvic is the one to compare against, and the closest to boiler friendly water.

Edit: removed silly html tags.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Thanks

That's why I switched to distilled/epsom salt/baking soda


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Today I pulled out the jet.

I suspect it was causing a reduction in flow.

Here's a photo of it.

Again, not too bad IMO.

I let it soak in dezcal for 10 minutes.

It turned a beautiful copper color.

The orifice was a bit tighter from sediment.

Used a needle to gently poke and prod through it.

It now fills 120 ml in 16 seconds compared to 35 yesterday.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

hedonist222 said:


> Thanks
> 
> That's why I switched to distilled/epsom salt/baking soda


 How much are you adding? You can still get scale from mangesium sulfate+sodium bicarbonate.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> How much are you adding? You can still get scale from mangesium sulfate+sodium bicarbonate.


 1.4g of baking soda to 1 liter distilled water

10.1g of epsom salt to 1 liter distilled water

Then, I add 50 ml and 17 ml of the above respectively to 938 ml of distilled water

The basic recipe on whole latte love YouTube.


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

hedonist222 said:


> 1.4g of baking soda to 1 liter distilled water
> 
> 10.1g of epsom salt to 1 liter distilled water
> 
> ...


 These are some weird numbers, but if it works for you. This is your end concentration then:


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

ArisP said:


> These are some weird numbers, but if it works for you. This is your end concentration then:
> 
> View attachment 38414


 Thanks but I don't understand your chart.

I used the recipe from this clip:






I'd like to learn if you would please elaborate a bit.


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Is this stuff from WWL water good for coffee or boiler friendly water? Different things....


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Maybe you just want to see some bicarb soda (aka baking soda) as per here:

http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Maybe you just want to see some bicarb soda (not baking soda) as per here:
> 
> http://coffeetimex.wikidot.com/ro-water-copper-corrosion


 Baking Soda is bicarbonate of soda which is sodium bicarbonate. Baking powder is an entirely different thing. For simplicity sake let's just call it what it is: NaHCO3....


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

MediumRoastSteam said:


> Is this stuff from WWL water good for coffee or boiler friendly water? Different things


 Anyone have any good water formulas? (Formulae?)


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## MediumRoastSteam (Jul 7, 2015)

Rob1 said:


> Baking Soda is bicarbonate of soda which is sodium bicarbonate. Baking powder is an entirely different thing. For simplicity sake let's just call it what it is: NaHCO3....


Yep, my mistake. Post corrected shortly afterwards. "Aka" instead of "not". Mistook for baking powder.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

*70/30 Water*

14g NaHCO3 in 1000ml for concentrate.
12g MgSO4 in 1000ml for concentrate.
---------
Molar Mass NaHCO3 = 84.007g/mol
Molar Mass MgSO47H2O = 246.5 g/mol (120.37g/mol MgSO4+7H2O)
Molar mass Mg = 24.3g/mol
Molar mass SO4 = 96.06g/mol
Molar Mass Na = 22.9898 g/mol
Molar Mass HCO3 = 61.0168g/mol

----------
14 / 84.007 = 0.166 mol/l = 166 mmol/l
12 / 246.5 = 0.048 mol/l = 48 mmol/l

5/1000 = 0.005 *<---- The Dilution. 5ml of concentrate added to 995ml Water.*

------------
166 * 0.005 = 0.83 NaHCO3
48 * 0.005 = 0.24 MgSO4
----
0.83 * 22.9898 = 19.08 mg/l Na
0.83 * 61.0168 = 50.64 mg/l HCO3
----
0.24 * 100 = 24mg MgSO4 as CaCO3
----
0.24 * 24.3 = 5.83 mg/l Mg2+
0.24 * 96.06 = 23.05 mg/l SO4
----
69.72 ppm NaHCO3
28.88 ppm MgSO4
50.64 mg/l HCO3 (50ppm bicarbonate ion)
24mg MgSO4 as CaCO3 (24 ppm Hardness as Calcium Carbonate)
5.83 mg/l Mg2+ (5.83ppm)
19 mg Na
23.05 mg/l SO4

HCO3 61g/Eq
50.64 / 61 = 0.83 Eq * 1000 = 830 mEq/L
Alkalinity as CaCO3 (CaCO3 100mg / 2 = 50mg) So 0.83 * 50 = 41.5 mg/l Alkalinity as CaCO3

----------------------------

*I personally wouldn't use epsom salts, at least not alone. I omitted them entirely and just used potassium bicarbonate for a while to get an alkalinity of 40mg/l and preferred that to water with large amounts of epsom salts and/or calcium chloride and couldn't really tell the difference when amounts of the latter two were reduced to the point where chloride and sulfate concentration became acceptable to me.*


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> *70/30 Water*
> 
> 14g NaHCO3 in 1000ml for concentrate.
> 12g MgSO4 in 1000ml for concentrate.
> ...


 Why would you not use Epsom salts?


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Rob

Thanks

So after adding



ArisP said:


> 14g NaHCO3 in 1000ml for concentrate.
> 
> 12g MgSO4 in 1000ml for concentrate.


 How much of these concentrates to 1 liter of distilled water?

Couldn't quite figure it out.

Is it:



ArisP said:


> Nahco3 = 166 ml /liter
> 
> Mgso4 = 48 ml/liter


 So the aggregate of 166+48 into 786ml of distilled water?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

ArisP said:


> Why would you not use Epsom salts?


 Epsom salts alone for hardness I found produced weird shots that were very sweet but kind of thin feeling and artificial. I don't know if that came from the sulfate or not. I thought calcium chloride tasted salty with chlorides above a certain amount (can't remember what) by using MgSO4 and CaCl2 together I was able to drop chlorides and sulfate to a point I couldn't taste saltiness or the weird thin sweetness (kind of a cloying sweetness thinking about it) but compared to using water with just KHCO3 I couldn't really tell much difference at all and for boiler health I just decided to avoid sulfates and chlorides alltogether. Now I'm using Magnesium Bicarbonate which only exists as a liquid and is created by reacting Magnesium Hydroxide with carbonated water. I use this with Sodium Bicarbonate concentrate to get 10mg/l Sodium and 40mg/l Alkalinity with about 25-30ppm hardness tested using a drop kit. The shots are noticeably sweeter with this water than with water containing just potassium and bicarboantes but without the weirdness I got from Magnesium sulfate. I might try Calcium Carbonate dissolved in carbonated water instead of magnesium in the future but I'm pretty happy with the way things are now.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

hedonist222 said:


> Rob
> 
> Thanks
> 
> ...


 5ml.....it's in bold right there in the post. Added to 995ml to get 1 litre.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> 5ml.....it's in bold right there in the post. Added to 995ml to get 1 litre.


 So I combine the 12 and 14 grams into 2 liters of distilled water.

Then pour 5 ml of it into 1 l of distilled water?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

Err no.

990ml.

Two separate 1l concentrates.

So: 990ml DI Water + 5ml Concentrate 1 + 5ml Concentrate 2 = 1000ml

If you just want to use one concentrate (e.g. NaHCO3) then yes, 995ml + 5ml.

If you want to make a smaller amount of concentrate divide your amounts by whatever....e.g. a 500ml concentrate would be divided by 2 so 6g and 7g respectively. Or to make weird amounts of concentrate divide the amounts of the compound by 1000 and multiply by however much concentrate you wish to make....so e.g. 12/1000 = 0.012 * 500 = 6

If you make a single 1 litre concentrate of them both combined you'll get sediment forming and you'll have to add 10ml to 990ml. Obviously....the idea here is you're dividing by 1000 to make the math easier which happens to be a litre.

So no you wouldn't add the compounds to 2 litres of water (in one bottle) and then add 5ml of that into 995ml water. I think you'd have to double the amounts of the compounds for the 1 litre calculation and then add 10ml to 990ml. But don't do that.



hedonist222 said:


> So I combine the 12 and 14 grams into 2 liters of distilled water.
> 
> Then pour 5 ml of it into 1 l of distilled water?


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## ArisP (Dec 17, 2019)

Rob1 said:


> Epsom salts alone for hardness I found produced weird shots that were very sweet but kind of thin feeling and artificial. I don't know if that came from the sulfate or not. I thought calcium chloride tasted salty with chlorides above a certain amount (can't remember what) by using MgSO4 and CaCl2 together I was able to drop chlorides and sulfate to a point I couldn't taste saltiness or the weird thin sweetness (kind of a cloying sweetness thinking about it) but compared to using water with just KHCO3 I couldn't really tell much difference at all and for boiler health I just decided to avoid sulfates and bicarbonates alltogether. Now I'm using Magnesium Bicarbonate which only exists as a liquid and is created by reactin Magnesium Hydroxide with carbonated water. I use Sodium Bicarbonate concentrate to get 10mg/l Sodium and 40mg/l Alkalinity. The shots are noticeably sweeter with this water than with water containing just potassium and bicarboantes but without the weirdness I got from Magnesium sulfate. I might try Calcium Carbonate dissolved in carbonated water instead of magnesium in the future but I'm pretty happy with the way things are now.


 Thanks @Rob1

Appreciate the detailed response!


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> *70/30 Water*
> 
> 14g NaHCO3 in 1000ml for concentrate.
> 12g MgSO4 in 1000ml for concentrate.
> ...


 Hi Rob,

Just to clarify and thanks for bearing with me.

I was using:

1.4g of baking soda to 1 liter distilled water

10.1g of epsom salt to 1 liter distilled water

You're suggesting:

14g of baking soda to 1 liter water & 12g of epsom salts to 1 liter of water.

Then take 5ml of each and add it to 990ml of water?

I wad adding 50ml and 17ml to 938ml of water.

Thats quite a lot more than 5ml and 5 ml into 990ml

Any reason for such disparity? I'm not arguing with you - just cuirous.

thanks alot


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

hedonist222 said:


> Hi Rob,
> 
> Just to clarify and thanks for bearing with me.
> 
> ...


 There's no disparity between the amount of sodium bicarbonate you're adding.

It's a different recipe.

I use a pipette to measure 5ml of water accurately (0.05ml graduations). I use kitchen scales to measure 3 litres of water. The kitchen scales will not be accurate to the gram but should be within 5g. A 5g swing in 3 litres of water is not significant. I could use scales to accurately measure a larger amount of concentrate but the issue is transferring the concentrate to the bigger container....you always have some left behind and it feels inaccurate and somewhat unhygenic too. Not to mention the faff of rinsing, drying, pouring, pouring back, taring, checking the weight again etc etc.

In short I can measure the concentrate accurately and verify the accuracy with a GH:KH drop kit. I can't measure 3 litres accurately but that doesn't matter. If I were to add larger amounts of a weaker concentrate to get the same final volume of water my inability to measure the larger amount of water accurately would have more of an effect (because I'm using less of it so a 5g inaccuracy is more significant)....

With the recipe I posted you get alkalinity of 40mg/l and hardness of 25mg/l approx. This won't scale even in service boilers....but you will need to flush the boiler out depending on how often you steam to prevent minerals building up and depositing. *EDIT: Actually you're running an HX so it's probably easier to just do a very light descale every couple of months.*

I don't know what you get from your original recipe aside from the 40mg/l alkalinity and can't be bothered calculating it.....surely you know what hardness you were getting??


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> There's no disparity between the amount of sodium bicarbonate you're adding.
> 
> It's a different recipe.
> 
> ...


 I surely do not hahaha

I'm certainly no where as skilled as you all are at water chemistry - but I'm here to learn from you guys


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

@hedonist222

I should add you need to make sure you're using the right molar mass for your epsom salt, there are several different forms with different numbers of water molecules attached. Mine is heptaydrate so has 7 watermolecules = MgSO47H2O ..... you should be able to find a MSDS for your epsom salt brand if you search for it by manufacturer, or you might even have the full chemical formula on the label. You'll need to alter the calculations to for whatever the molar mass of your epsom salt is.


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

10.1g MgSO4 in 1000ml for concentrate.
---------
Molar Mass MgSO47H2O = 246.5 g/mol (120.37g/mol MgSO4+7H2O)
Molar mass Mg = 24.3g/mol
Molar mass SO4 = 96.06g/mol
----------
10.1 / 246.5 = 0.0409736308316 mol/l = 40.9736308316 mmol/l

17/1000 = 0.017 *<---- The Dilution. 17ml of concentrate added to 983ml Water.*

------------
40.9736308316 * 0.017 = 0.696551724138 MgSO4
--------
0.696551724138 * 100 = 69.6551724138g MgSO4 as CaCO3
----
0.696551724138 * 24.3 = 16.9262068966 mg/l Mg2+
0.696551724138 * 96.06 = 66.9107586207 mg/l SO4
----

Assuming you were using heptahydrate epsom salt (which I think is the most common) this is what you were adding before. That's a lot of sulfate. And it will scale as temperatures in the boiler and the HX rise to the 120c if your alkalinity is 40mg/l.

If you want to avoid descaling the boiler then don't use epsom salts at all, just bicarbonates.


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Thank you, Rob. I do appreciate your contribution but some of it is going over my head.

Butr its ok, I'll try and omit epsoms salts:

14g of baking soda to 1 liter.

Then take 5ml and add it to 995ml of water.


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## DavecUK (Aug 6, 2013)

Would it not be better to lower the g of bicarb and raise the amount of solution added?


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## Rob1 (Apr 9, 2015)

hedonist222 said:


> Thank you, Rob. I do appreciate your contribution but some of it is going over my head.
> 
> Butr its ok, I'll try and omit epsoms salts:
> 
> ...


 That's the same as your existing bicarbonate recipe so you can just keep using that if you prefer.



DavecUK said:


> Would it not be better to lower the g of bicarb and raise the amount of solution added?


 Can be. It's not too difficult to make so how long it lasts isn't much of an issue, I just prefer to measure a small amount with a pipette very accurately and not worry too much about the accuracy of my kitchen scales for 3 litres of water. If I were using scales to weigh 5g in a shot glass and then transfer that to 3 litres it would be a terrible way of doing it as I'd be losing some to the shot glass and it would be awkward to weigh such a small amount.

The recipe I provided isn't what I use just a non-scaling version of what they were using. I provided the math so they can alter it to whatever concentrations they want to use for ease of use and accuracy....though to be fair they could just decrease concentration by 10 and add 10x more concentrate to the water which I didn't think would be difficult to calculate....


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Rob1 said:


> That's the same as your existing bicarbonate recipe so you can just keep using that if you prefer.


 Thought so

because it felt like drawing 50ml of1.4g is the same as drawing 5ml of 14g

thank you

Will now omit epsom salt


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## hedonist222 (Apr 19, 2020)

Actually, I'll use your recipe of baking soda

Because with your recipe, I need to make baking soda concentrate less often

Its 5ml per tank top-up versus my 50ml tank top-up.

Thank you


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